#82200 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Feb 3, 2008 6:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment TGrand458@... Hi Sukin In a message dated 2/3/2008 11:30:28 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, sukinder@... writes: Hi TG, ================ The reason the Buddha talked in terms of elements and aggregates is to show what in fact constitutes our experience from moment to moment. It was not meant to explain the world ....................................................... NEW TG: It was both. As both are integrated and helpful in overcoming affliction. When the Buddha talks about an adze handle wearing away with usage, or a sail boat rotting due to the elements, is this to understand our moment by moment experiences? I don't think so. He's explaining nature and using "outside" conceptualizations to make his points on impermanence. ................................................... ..................................................... TG: Nonsense. The reason was both. But the actual reason was to overcome affliction. Suk: Is not Dukkha due to being conditioned dhammas? Is this not overcome by "knowledge" / insight into the nature of these same dhammas? ..................................................... NEW TG: Speaking of "Dhammas" to me, is like me speaking to you about "persons" or "souls." I believe its a deluded premise; so if I adopt that terminology, I'm adopting a deluded stance. Therefore, I need a different term to see exactly what you mean by "Dhammas." If its "realities with their own characteristics," then its just conceptual grasping in my view, as I don't believe in any such thing. I also don't believe in non-realities. There simply is arising, changing, and ceasing. Any idea of reality or non-reality is just the imagination at work. BTW, if Sarah's reading this, I probably briefly answered her "Dhammas" question prior to getting my answer on the Cemetery Contemplations. Dammit. TG OUT #82201 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lodewijk's message. Re: processes of citta. sarahprocter... Hi Nina, Howard & All, I'd like to try and help with this: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: ...Only the Book of Analysis is left: p. 115, 116, but because > of the transl. .....here is an > order of cittas, the nucleus of a process. cessation of eye-consciousness-element that has arisen there arises > mind-element (remember: receiving-consciousness), etc. This is > interesting. .... S: First, to clarify some terms and some revision for me: *mano-dhaatu (mind-element) = the 5 sense-door-adverting-consciousness (pa~nca-dvaaraavajjana-citta) + the 2 kinds of receiving consciousness (sampa.ticchana-cittas), i.e 3 kinds of citta. *dhamma-dhatu = the cetasikas, the subtle rupas and nibbana. *mano-vi~n~naa.na dhaatu (mind-consciousness element) = all cittas which are NOT the dvii-pa~nca-vi~n~naa.na cittas, i.e. NOT seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and body-consciousness elments, and also NOT mano-dhaatu cittas above. Left to be included are santir.rana citta (investigating consciousness), javana cittas, tadaaramma.na cittas, bhavanga cittas and mano-dvaaraavajjana cittas (mind-door adverting consciousness), I believe. *vi~n~naa.na dhaatu (consciousness element) = the pa~nca-vi~n~naa.na cittas (seeing etc.), the mano-dhaatu (mind element, see above), mano-vi~n~naa.na dhaatu (mind-consciousness element, see above). **** Vibhanga, Analysis of Elements, PTS transl, p114: "Therein what is mind element (manodhaatu)? Immediately after the cessation of the eye-consciousness-element (cakkhu vi~n~naa.na dhaatu) that has arisen there arises consciousness (citta), mind (mano), ideation (maanasa), heart (hadaya), lucence (pa.ndara), mind (mano), mind base (manaayatana), controlling faculty of mind (manindriya), consciousness (vi~n~naa.na), the aggregate of consciousness (vi~n~naa.nakkhandha); and, depending on the aforesaid, mind element (manodhaatu)......" .... >N: Depending on mind, follows a mind-door process, and the doorway is > the last bhavangacitta before this process starts. Thus here mind > stands for bhavangacitta. Without the help of the co. I would not > know this. ... S: I agree. Without the explanation of the commentaries, it is extremely difficult to follow the intricacies of the Abhidhamma as in the quote above. From the commentary, Sammohanvinodanii, Classification of Elements, PTS transl, p96: "Manodhaatuyaa pi uppajjitvaa niruddhasamanantaraa ("next to the mind element after it has arisen and ceased also")...the meaning here should be understood as: "[Next] to the mind element and to the mind-consciousness element also". All the three following should be understood as expounded by that, [namely:], "The resultant mind-consciousness element with the function of investigation (santiira.na) which arises next to the mind element, after that has arisen and ceased; the mind-consciousness element with the function of impulsion (javana) which arises next to that, after that has arisen and ceased; the functional mind-consciousness element with the function of determind (vo.t.thapana) which arises next to that, after that has arisen and ceased" (cf. Vis 458 ff). "Mana~n ca pa.ticca ("due to mind"): the life-continuum mind (bhava'nga-mano). Dhamme ca ("and mental data"): a mental datum of the four planes as object. Upajjati mano-vi~n~naa.na.m ("there arises mind-consciousness element"): impulsion together with advertence (sahaavajjanaka.m javana.m) is produced. ......." .... S: I think that most the cittas can be found in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, but very few people today would be able to understand the meaning or the details without the assistance of the commentaries. For those who have little faith in either, it doesn't matter. What's important is to know that there are many different kinds of cittas arising now in rapid succession and that they all have different functions. Some are 'results' (vipaka cittas), such as seeing and hearing. Some are 'active accumulations', the javana cittas and others are neither causal nor resulting, such as the mind-door adverting consciousness. Appreciating that all cittas (all dhammas, to be precise) arise because of conditions such as kamma, decisive support, root, object and so on is the subject of Vism. Ch XIX, about to be discussed. Understanding the conditioned nature of these dhammas is the only way to overcome doubts about dhammas(i.e namas and rupas, the 'All'). Metta, Sarah ======== #82202 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 12:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello im new member here. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > Thanks for the kind words re the post on rippling effect of alcohol. > Was good wasn't it? :) ... S: Now, now, no need to cling to it :). Yes, it was good - it reminded me of Rob M's past rippling posts and some strong comments K.Sujin had made to a friend from California in Nepal (on an India tape) about not drinking even a little alcohol for health reasons because of the 'accumulative' effect. ... > My sense is that there is too much trust in the power of your > intellect, too much interest in panna. ... S: I know what you mean, but I'd say not enought interest in panna. This however is wrong understanding if one thereby thinks that there are no longer the 'festering wonds' laying dormant as you describe. Yes, I've known many keen students of Abhidhamma who've seemed to lead blameless lives as lay-people and monks, only to find themselves facing those erupting wounds when circumstances change. Anything can happen, no surprises.... ... >Obviously I'm not saying that we > should go around grossed out by our rotten stinking defiled minds but > that's a closer image of the truth, in my opinion, than this idea of > panna wonderfully working its way.... ... S: I think that when 'panna wonderfully works its way', there definitely is less self-centredness and concern abour and for ME. However, I agree that most the time the mind is still 'rotten stinking defiled':-). .... > I have heard Acharn Sujin laugh at the notion of clenching one's > teeth as a last resort to remove a distracting thought (as we see in MN > 19 or 20, I forget which) being kusala. She laughed. "Clenching teeth? > Kusala?" ... S: The point is that people follow as instructions what they read in suttas, living in a delusion that somehow it's kusala to try and imitate the accumulations of others. We all behave as we do when we're angry. People have their own pet 'remedies'. The point of the sutta (as I read it) is that however we behave, whatever we do, awareness can arise and understanding can know the dhammas truthfully for what they are. No need to kid ourselves that counting to ten or clenching one's teeth is kusala. No need not to do it - it'll depend on conditions anyway. .... >But it is that sort of struggle in going against the stream > that is absolutely necessary at times if one is going to lay down the > tracks of behaviour that lead to the precepts being kept. Thinking > otherwise is a pannastic fantasy in my opinion. ... S: If one thinks that by clenching one's teeth one is going against the stream or understanding the Buddha's profound message of anatta, I think this would be a 'pannastic fantasy':-)[Good term, no need to cling:)] Good to follow your drift.... Metta, Sarah ======== #82203 From: han tun Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 12:30 am Subject: Perfections Corner (83) hantun1 Perfections Corner (83) Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) We read in the Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct” (Miscellaneous Sayings): “Again, only the man of wisdom can patiently tolerate the wrongs of others, not the dull-witted man. In the man lacking wisdom, the wrongs of others only provoke impatience; but for the wise, they call his patience into play and make it grow even stronger.” How shall we live from now on? If we have right understanding, we can patiently tolerate the wrongs of someone else, but if we lack understanding, impatience will increase. We read further on: “Only the man of wisdom is skilful in providing for the welfare of all beings, without discriminating between dear people, neutrals, and enemies.” All the teachings are beneficial. We can see that the Buddha helped his followers in explaining the Dhamma and exhorting them time and again to consider the benefit of kusala dhammas. We read in the text: “Only the man of wisdom is skilful in providing for the welfare of all beings, without discriminating between dear people, neutrals, and enemies.” This reminds us that we should be skilful in providing for the welfare of all beings, that we should be impartial in giving assistance to others, and not only help our close friends. When someone is really skilful, he has patience so that he is intent on what is beneficial. When he is impatient this is of no benefit to him. We read in the Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct”, no. 1, the Conduct of Akitti: “Siila has been called ‘tapa’, ascetism or austerity, because it burns [1] the impurity arising from akusala. Because of the splendour and power of the perfection of patience and the perfection of viriya, also these perfections have been called tapa, ascetism: they burn the impurity of craving and laziness. The Bodhisatta developed those perfections to the highest degree when he was in this life. It should be said that he developed them by the power of the perfection of patience (khanti paaramittaanubhaavena), because the restraint by patience leads to what is supreme. The Exalted One said: ‘patience is the highest ascetism’ (khanti parama,m tapo).” Note [1] Tappati is the passive form of tapati. Tippati means to burn, to shine. To be continued. Han #82204 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 12:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the present moment sarahprocter... Hi TG (& All), You were discussing the meaning of 'contemplation' as used in the Satipatthana Sutta: --- TGrand458@... wrote: >This material, these contemplations, is > for contemplation...not for seeing "Dhammas" here and now. Hell, the term CONTEMPLATION is used over and over and over again in the Sutta. (I > feel like I'm taking crazy pills!) ;-) .... S: ;-) The Book of Analysis "355. The four foundation of mindfulness -- herein a bhikkhu dwells contemplating body in the body (kaayaanupassii) internally....contemplating in feelings (vedanaaupassii).....in consciousness (cittaanupassii)...in mental state (dhammaanupassii) 357. Contemplating means (anupassii ti): Therein that is contemplation (tattha katamaa anupassanaa)? that which is wisdom, understanding(yaa pa~n~naa pajaananaa),...absence of dullness (amoho), truth investigation(dhammavicaya), right view (sammaadi.t.thi). This is called contemplation (ida.m vuccati sampaja~n~na.m). Of this contemplation (sampaja~n~nena) he is possessed, well possessed, attained, well attained, endowed, well endowed, furnished. Therefore this is called contemplating (sampajaano)." .... S: I think that 'contemplation' (sampajaano) as used here and in other suttas refers not to a 'thinking about' or mere contemplation as we're used to use the term. I think it refers to the deep understanding of any rupas and namas (as included in the 4 satipatthanas above)in the development of satipatthana. If it were just ways of wise reflection, it would never lead to enlightenment. Metta, Sarah p.s. Please ignore this if it's another side-issue you'd rather not discuss:-)) ........... #82205 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 12:47 am Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas dhammanusara Hello Scott & Alex, - Your stream-entry discussion has not reached a conclusion yet, so I think it is okay for me to provide some input. The following part of your conversation is most interesting : >>Alex: MN2 says in the first item how to reach stream entry (appropriate attention). "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing". > > A: "...in MN#2 the cause for Right View are: 1) Voice of > another...There were no dhamma books in Buddha's time, so one would > learn the Dhamma by hearing..." > > Scott: Which, I think, could be like reading... >>> >Scott: Yes. If your faculty of mindfulness, energy are developed well enough and you don't have kamma obstructions - then technically stream entry *could* occur. But if not, then developing the 5 faculties would help. > >A: "2) Appropriate attention. Being able to see everything in a sense of conditionality and 4NT. Jhana is very helpful here." > ........... Tep: The first three fetters(self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices) are eradicated in the Sotapanna. Yonisomanasikara is a requisite for such eradication as stated in MN2. Why? Because discernment (panna) conditions knowing & seeing the dhammas (defined in the Okkanta-samyutta, SN 25.1 - SN 25.10 : cakkhu, rupa, vinnana, phassa, vedana, sanna, cetana, tanha. dhatu, khandha) as inconstant, changeable, alterable -- i.e. impermanent. "One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening." The faculty of discernment is one of the five faculties(indriya). But among the five faculties the first faculty, saddha-indriya, is strongest in a Sotapanna. "Monks, there are these five faculties. Which five? The faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, and the faculty of discernment. "Now where is the faculty of conviction to be seen? In the four factors of stream-entry.... And where is the faculty of persistence to be seen? In the four right exertions.... And where is the faculty of mindfulness to be seen? In the four frames of reference.... And where is the faculty of concentration to be seen? In the four jhanas.... And where is the faculty of discernment to be seen? In the four noble truths.... And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising and passing away- noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it is actually present: 'This is stress...This is the origination of stress...This is the cessation of stress...This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment.[SN 48.8] .................... So the bhikkhu discerns the FNT appropriately and the faculty of discernment conditions the right seeing which supports stream-entry as explained in MN 2. Does this conclusion make sense to you two or not? Your friend, Tep === #82206 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:subtle attachment, MP3 talks. sarahprocter... Dear Tep, I meant to thank you for your very kind message. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: I am sorry to hear that bad news, and wish the "little medical > crisis" may last only a few days at most. ... S: As you'll see, he's well on the mend. We thought it was 'stomach flu', but it seems it might have been a relatively mild food poisoning. ... > > The thinking of voidness like you said reminds me of the following > passage from the Patism. > > 515 "When he knows and sees correctly that eye (ear, ...mind) is void > of self or what belongs to self or anything permanent or everlasting or > eternal or not subject to change, then this knowledge turns away from > misinterpretation of eye (ear, ... mind), thus understanding of > voidness is knowledge of the turning away through knowledge". > > That "understanding of voidness" is ~nanavivatta~nana. ... S: Great quote,thanks. I'm always glad when you share from the Patism. Also, I appreciated all the helpful and relevant sutta quotes in your message to Ven A. (#82032) Metta, Sarah ========= #82207 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Removal of distracting thoughts. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: >> > See: "Vitakka-Santhana Sutta, MN20 (Removal of Distracting > Thoughts)" <...> >A: Do you or Nina or anyone here practices (meditation subjects) that > Nina has well said below? > > If so, my respect! > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > > > The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 2. > > > > The Co explains, when unwholesome thinking is accompanied by > attachment, the different object (nimitta) he should pay attention to > is foulness, asubha. And when there is attachment to things, such as > robes, he should reflect on the impermanence of things. When thinking > with aversion arises towards living beings he should develop metta, > loving kindness. When thinking with aversion arises towards things he > should pay attention to elements. When thinking with delusion arises > the bhikkhu should depend on five dhammas. > >>>> .... S: However much such texts (or translations of texts) sound like rules and prescriptions of practices to follow, I have confidence that the Buddha is discussing conditioned dhammas without any self involved to practice or do anything. Attention may be paid to this or that object according to accumulations. Metta may be developed, if there is sufficient understanding of its quality and value. Elements may be known, jhana may be achieved. If so, again it is by conditions, not by any self wishing or trying to attain it. Whichever suttas we read, we have to keep in mind the basics - there are only ever namas and rupas arising and falling away. These dhammas are anicca, dukkha and anatta, beyond anyone's control. Metta, Sarah ======== #82208 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta Vs natthatta . Was Buddha a Nihilist? sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > wrote: > > > -- > > > The Buddhist term Anatman (Sanskrit), or Anatta (Pali) is an > > > adjective in sutra used to refer to the nature of phenomena as > being > > > devoid of the Soul, the ontological and subjective Self (atman) > which > > > is the "light (dipam), and only refuge" [DN 2.100]. > > ... > > S: Unclear in the end what the light is! > > .... > > > > Light of wisdom maybe? The undefiled mind (AN something) that is > bright? ... S: When you contact the author, you could suggest he discuss his ideas here with us! Not sure what the atman would have to do with 'light of wisdom'. As for the AN sutta and pabhassaram, that would be opening an old festering can of worms. [See 'luminous' in U.P.] ... > > The author made a valid point regarding that. Buddha seems to say > ABCDEF is not self (and I agree 100%). But the Buddha didn't seem to > go on and say "Bhikkave Natthatta!" (Monks, Atta does not exist!) . ... S: The Buddha made it clear that the khandhas were the 'All' (apart from nibbana if that is experienced). ... > > And please don't say, "They weren't ready to hear it". Some of the > people became arahants or ariyas. ... S: When he spoke about the khandhas as being the realities which exist, it was apparent that anything else was a concept, not a dhamma (realitiy). ... > > For Pali Experts: Is there ANY place (in 4 Nikayas) where Buddha > definately say "The Atta DOES NOT exist" ? ... S: The Buddha talked about the dhammas which do exist. I think it was made very clear throughout the Tipitaka that no atta could be found anywhere, except in our fantasies. If you've read all the suttas in 4 Nikayas and still think there's any chance of an atta existing, I think you've been wasting your time:-). .... > I have to find the email of that guy at that site and see what he > says about some suttas dealing with Nibbana. ... S: Yes, encourage him to join us and clarify. Metta, Sarah ======== #82209 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 2:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re:subtle attachment, MP3 talks. dhammanusara Dear Sarah, I am glad to see you back. >Sarah: > I meant to thank you for your very kind message. > T: You are very welcome, Sarah. I have learned to be kinder from observing you, Jon, and Nina. :-) [Of course, there are other kind members of this group whom I appreciate as well.] > > T: I am sorry to hear that bad news, and wish the "little medical > > crisis" may last only a few days at most. > ... > S: As you'll see, he's well on the mend. We thought it was 'stomach flu',but it seems it might have been a relatively mild food poisoning. > ... T: I always have serious stomach-upset problems with foods in far- away lands. Mostly the problems are caused by virusses and who-know- what-they-put-into the foods during cooking. Jon was lucky to have just 'mild' food poisoning; I was hospitalized last time. > > > > The thinking of voidness like you said reminds me of the following > > passage from the Patism. > > > > 515 "When he knows and sees correctly that eye (ear, ...mind) is void > > of self or what belongs to self or anything permanent or everlasting or > > eternal or not subject to change, then this knowledge turns away from > > misinterpretation of eye (ear, ... mind), thus understanding of > > voidness is knowledge of the turning away through knowledge". > > > > That "understanding of voidness" is ~nanavivatta~nana. > ... > S: Great quote,thanks. I'm always glad when you share from the Patism. > > Also, I appreciated all the helpful and relevant sutta quotes in your message to Ven A. (#82032) > T: I am glad that those quotes are relevant to you. Great quotes are always delightful no matter how many times I reflect on them ! Sincerely, Tep === #82210 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 2:52 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 33 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 494. "Eva.m bahudukkhaa kaamaa, akkhaataa antaraayikaa; gacchatha na me bhavagate, vissaaso atthi attano. 492. "In this way, sensual pleasures have been said to have much pain, to be hindrances. Go! I myself have no confidence in existence. Akkhaataa antaraayikaati "saggamaggaadhigamassa nibbaanagaamimaggassa ca antaraayakaraa"ti cakkhubhuutehi buddhaadiihi vuttaa. Gacchathaati anikaratta.m saparisa.m vissajjeti. 492. Have been said to be hindrances (antaraayikaa) means: it has been said by the Buddhas, etc, by those possessing the eye of wisdom, that they cause obstacles (antaraaya-kara) to the attainment of the path to heaven and to the path leading to quenching. Go! means: she is sending away Anikaratta and his retinue. 495. "Ki.m mama paro karissati, attano siisamhi .dayhamaanamhi; anubandhe jaraamara.ne, tassa ghaataaya gha.titabba.m. 493. "What will another person do for me when his own head is burning? When old age and death are following closely, one must strive for their destruction." Ki.m mama paro karissatiiti paro a~n~no mama ki.m naama hita.m karissati attano siisamhi uttama"nge ekaadasahi aggiihi .dayhamaane. Tenaaha "anubandhe jaraamara.ne"ti. Tassa jaraamara.nassa siisa.daahassa, ghaataaya samugghaataaya, gha.titabba.m vaayamitabba.m. 493. What will another person do for me means: what good indeed will another person (paro = a~n~no) do for me when his own head, the highest member [of his body], is burning with the eleven fires. Therefore she says, when old age and death are following closely, one must strive, one must endeavour, for their destruction (ghaataaya), for abolishing them (samugghaataaya), the old age and death that are burning one's head. 496. "Dvaara.m apaapuritvaanaha.m, maataapitaro aniikaratta~nca; disvaana chama.m nisinne, rodante idamavoca.m. 494. Opening the door, and seeing her mother and father and Anikaratta seated on the ground lamenting, she said this: Chamanti chamaaya.m. Idamavocanti ida.m "diigho baalaana.m sa.msaaro"ti-aadika.m sa.mvegasa.mvattanaka.m vacana.m avoca.m. 494. On the ground (chama.m) means: on the ground (chamaaya.m). She said this means: she said a speech conducive to [evoking] a profound stirring, this: "Continued existence is long for fools," etc. [vv.495ff.]. 497. "Diigho baalaana.m sa.msaaro, punappuna~nca rodata.m; anamatagge pitu mara.ne, bhaatu vadhe attano ca vadhe. 495. "Continued existence is long for fools and for those who lament again and again at that which is without beginning or end, at the death of a father, the slaughter of a brother, and their own slaughter. Diigho baalaana.m sa.msaaroti kilesakammavipaakava.t.tabhuutaana.m khandhaayatanaadiina.m pa.tipaa.tipavattisa"nkhaato sa.msaaro apari~n~naatavatthukaana.m andhabaalaana.m diigho buddha~naa.nenapi aparicchindaniyo. Yathaa hi anupacchinnattaa avijjaata.nhaana.m aparicchinnataayeva bhavapabandhassa pubbaa ko.ti na pa~n~naayati, eva.m paraapi ko.tiiti. Punappuna~nca rodatanti aparaapara.m sokavasena rudantaana.m. Iminaapi avijjaata.nhaana.m anupacchinnata.myeva tesa.m vibhaaveti. 495. Continued existence is long for fools means: continued existence, which is called the successive occurrence of the aggregates and sense bases, etc, in the coming into being in the cycles of the fruition of actions and defilements, is long for the blind fools who have not understood fundamental causes. They will not be cut off, even through the knowledge of a Buddha. For just as there is unlimited, uninterrupted ignorance and cravings, in the same way, a first beginning in the past is not know. This is so also for the future. And for those who lament (rodata.m) again and again (punna-ppuna.m) means: those who weep (rudantaana.m) because of grief again and again (aparaapara.m). By this, too, she makes clear to them that ignorance and cravings are uninterrupted. .. to be continued, connie #82211 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 3:15 am Subject: Vipassana on the Act of Seeing -- was [dsg] Re: WOW ... philofillet Hi Tep Thanks for your feedback and excerpt from a Sayadaw Mahasi talk. > At the moment of seeing, if one meditates on the act of seeing, > craving on the object seen will not arise. This is true. Every time > seeing arises, if one notes as 'seeing, seeing' continuously, craving > on the object seen will not arise and there will be no reflection on > it as well. On discerning the nature of the arising and passing away > of seeing and the object seen, neither pleasure nor aversion will > arise in connection with it. Therefore if one is mindful, his mind > will be free from craving and there will be only passive sensation > meaning sensation without emotion or reaction. The visual form seen > does not become an object of attachment in his mind. Listening to the sayadaws on this sort of topic always makes sense to me, as this passage makes sense to me. They have so very many good talks, practical talks. However, this wouldn't fit with the approach I was talking about to Jon, because "visual form seen" is in Abhidhamma terms so fleet, one cannot note it as "seeing, seeing" it is already gone. In the Mahasi noting system, "seeing, seeing" would have to be, technically speaking, "thinking, thinking", according to Abhidhamma, it seems, because the object would be a sexy woman, etc, "flash of thigh", as I put it, which is a concept, not a visual form, technically speaking. This is what I don't get and was asking about a few weeks ago. I can see a defiled response to "flash of thigh", a concept, but not to "visual form" which is void of any conceptual content, according to Abhidhamma, at least according to Abhidhamma as presented by A.S, and I think what she says is consistent with CMA. So when I wondered if people were trying to catch visible object I was referring to something much more inconceivable to do than what the passage above is doing. Ad it is only one example of what I feel are impossibly fleet moments of awareness according to the A.S approach, too fast to conceive of as possible to me. But I really, really, really want to extricate from further involvement with talking about A.S, so I will stop here and you can add anything if you'd like. Later, when I reopen that visible form thread, please come on in with the above passage again, if you remember. Thanks! I think I have bookmarked that thread (on visible form) and do want to return to it once I have wrapped up all the troublesome threads my big mouth led me into. Thanks Tep. :) Metta, Phil #82212 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 3:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello im new member here. philofillet Hi Sarah Before I begin, I have to apologize for being in "I want to get out of this thread" mode! As I was just saying to Tep, I really, really, really, really want to stop getting myself involved with talking about A.S. It doesn't do any good at all. > ... > > My sense is that there is too much trust in the power of your > > intellect, too much interest in panna. > ... > S: I know what you mean, but I'd say not enought interest in panna. This > however is wrong understanding if one thereby thinks that there are no > longer the 'festering wonds' laying dormant as you describe. Yes, I've > known many keen students of Abhidhamma who've seemed to lead blameless > lives as lay-people and monks, only to find themselves facing those > erupting wounds when circumstances change. Anything can happen, no > surprises.... > ... > >Obviously I'm not saying that we > > should go around grossed out by our rotten stinking defiled minds but > > that's a closer image of the truth, in my opinion, than this idea of > > panna wonderfully working its way.... > ... > S: I think that when 'panna wonderfully works its way', there definitely > is less self-centredness and concern abour and for ME. However, I agree > that most the time the mind is still 'rotten stinking defiled':-). > .... > > I have heard Acharn Sujin laugh at the notion of clenching one's > > teeth as a last resort to remove a distracting thought (as we see in MN > > 19 or 20, I forget which) being kusala. She laughed. "Clenching teeth? > > Kusala?" > ... > S: The point is that people follow as instructions what they read in > suttas, living in a delusion that somehow it's kusala to try and imitate > the accumulations of others. We all behave as we do when we're angry. > People have their own pet 'remedies'. The point of the sutta (as I read > it) is that however we behave, whatever we do, awareness can arise and > understanding can know the dhammas truthfully for what they are. No need > to kid ourselves that counting to ten or clenching one's teeth is kusala. Ph: A.Sujin shouldn't laugh at what the Buddha advised monks to do in that sutta, shouldn't laugh at the notion it is kusala. And that was the final 23 words I will say about you know who until who knows when! Your post makes good sense Sarah. They almost always do. Metta, Phil p.s oh, there's more. > ... > S: If one thinks that by clenching one's teeth one is going against the > stream or understanding the Buddha's profound message of anatta, Ph: Was I talking about understanding anatta? I have no interest in understanding anatta any more than the basic intellectual way I understand it. There is no self, dhammas cannot be controlled by a self. Right. Got it. Liberating insight into anatta will not come by thinking about it. And I don't care, really. Sakkaya ditthi is not akusala kamma patha, as you know. Inisght into anicca and dukkha seems more relevant to me. (I'm not, however, in the camp of folks who say Buddha didn't teach not-self. I believe he did.) I guess I'm not ambitious enough, but I don't aspire to sotapannna in this lifetime so eliminating sakkaya ditthi is not a concern. Maybe that will change. I am only intersted in the three forms of wrong view that are akusala kamma patha. OK, Sarah, thanks. I'll stay out of trouble for awhile. Just you watch... Metta, Phil #82213 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 4:26 am Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "MN2 says in the first item how to reach stream entry (appropriate attention)." Scott: The section you quote does not give a primer on how to reach Stream Entry. It seems as if you read the Suttas to be how-to manuals. If you'll note, the section is referring to 'a well taught noble disciple' (ariyasaavako). The 'ariyasaavako' is already at least sotaapanna. "Bhikkhus, a well-taught noble disciple, who has regard for noble ones and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma..." "Sutavaa ca kho, bhikkave, ariyasaavako - ariyaana.m dassaavii ariyaadhammassa kovido ariyadhamme suviniito..." Scott: The section is discussing the level of attention which arises subsequent to the arising of the Path and Fruit. Sincerely, Scott. #82214 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 5:51 am Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: Tep: "...Because discernment (panna) conditions knowing & seeing the dhammas (defined in the Okkanta-samyutta, SN 25.1 - SN 25.10 : cakkhu, rupa, vinnana, phassa, vedana, sanna, cetana, tanha. dhatu, khandha) as inconstant, changeable, alterable -- i.e. impermanent..." Scott: Yes, it is the function of pa~n~naa to 'know and see' these three characteristics in conditioned dhammas, as I understand it. SN 48(8) Bh. Bodhi trans.: "It is, bhikkhus, because he has developed and cultivated how many faculties that a bhikkhu who has destroyed the taints declares final knowledge thus. What five? The faculty of faith (sadhindriassa), the faculty of energy (viirindriyassa), the faculty of mindfulness (satindriyassa), the faculty of concentration (samadhindriyassa), the faculty of wisdom (pa~n~nindriyassa)." Note 232: "Spk: In this sutta and the next five [45(5), 46(6),47(7), 48(8), 49(9)], the faculties of the fruit alone (phalindriyaan' eva) are discussed. Spk-p.t: Because the teaching has come by way of the supreme fruit." T: "...So the bhikkhu discerns the FNT appropriately and the faculty of discernment conditions the right seeing which supports stream-entry as explained in MN 2. Does this conclusion make sense to you two or not? Scott: I think that I'm considering Right View to be a function of pa~n~naa, and a support for but not equivalent to Stream Entry. I think this is what you are saying as well. Sincerely, Scott. #82215 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 7:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment truth_aerator Dear Sukinder and TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder wrote: > > > ===================== > TG: > Where oh where does the Buddha tell us he wants us to know Dhammas as > REALITIES??? Seriously, 10,000 pages of material, and the Buddha didn't > think to once mention the point that you think is the most important thing? > > > > Suk: He didn't need to. His audience were very bright. The commentators > anticipating dimwits like us, by elaborating on the original, made it a > bit easier. ;-) > > Metta, > > Sukin > Sukin, are implying (hopefully unintentionally) that Buddha lacked the ability to teach in A CLEAR way that would be understandable to MOST people? Do you think that his only audience were PhD proffessors? Lots of Metta, Alex #82216 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 7:19 am Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas truth_aerator Dear Scott & Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > "It is, bhikkhus, because he has developed and cultivated how many > faculties that a bhikkhu who has destroyed the taints declares final > knowledge thus. What five? The faculty of faith (sadhindriassa), the > faculty of energy (viirindriyassa), the faculty of mindfulness > (satindriyassa), the faculty of concentration (samadhindriyassa), the > faculty of wisdom (pa~n~nindriyassa)." > > Note 232: "Spk: In this sutta and the next five [45(5), 46(6),47(7), > 48(8), 49(9)], the faculties of the fruit alone (phalindriyaan' eva) > are discussed. Spk-p.t: Because the teaching has come by way of the > supreme fruit." > > > Scott: I think that I'm considering Right View to be a function of > pa~n~naa, and a support for but not equivalent to Stream Entry. I > think this is what you are saying as well. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Scott, in the above quote of BB, you have quoted the requirements for an Arahant - NOT a stream enterer. Right view by itself isn't enough for Arahatship, but for Stream Enterer or Dhamma/Faith follower is. An Ariya MUST have developed faculties including Samma-Samadhi, & energy to a certain level for higher stages. Lots of Metta, Alex #82217 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 7:34 am Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thanks for the reply: > > A: "MN2 says in the first item how to reach stream entry (appropriate > attention)." > > Scott: The section you quote does not give a primer on how to reach > Stream Entry. >>> It does in a very condensed form, emphasising "seeing" (insight, straiting the view) aspect of the path. >>> It seems as if you read the Suttas to be how-to manuals. >>> They are. Buddha didn't want to teach everything, he taught the most important "How to reach Nibbana". >>> If you'll note, the section is referring to 'a well taught noble disciple' (ariyasaavako). The 'ariyasaavako' is already at least sotaapanna. >>> In the first or prior to it,section of MN#2 the person cannot be a sotapanna BECAUSE a sotapanna doesn't have 3 fetters. But the first section (asavas to be removed by seeing) teaches HOW to remove the 3 fetters through appropriate attention (an ideal state is a Jhana for appropriate attention). Lots of Metta, Alex #82218 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Removal of distracting thoughts. truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: However much such texts (or translations of texts) sound like rules and prescriptions of practices to follow, >>> I think that we need to stick as close to the texts as possible. >>> I have confidence that the Buddha is discussing conditioned dhammas without any self involved to practice or do anything. >?>>> The text give specific instructions. I think they should be followed. Sarah, we aren't discussing Anatta here. We are discussing PRACTICAL STEPS TO BE DONE. You keep shifting the discussion towards pure philosophy beyond capability of one to see them yet - that is before one develops sati-samadhi-panna faculties. >>>> > Attention may be paid to this or that object according to accumulations. Metta may be developed, if there is sufficient understanding of its quality and value. Elements may be known, jhana may be achieved. If so, again it is by conditions, not by any self wishing or trying to attain it. >>>> You seem to misunderstand two things "conditionality" and "free will". They do NOT cancel each other. Lots of Metta, Alex #82219 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 8:12 am Subject: Re: the present moment truth_aerator Hi Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: I think that 'contemplation' (sampajaano) as used here and in other suttas refers not to a 'thinking about' or mere contemplation as we're used to use the term. >>> True, although in INITIAL stages thinking may be helpful as a way to turn attention to phenomenon. >>>>>>>> I think it refers to the deep understanding of any > rupas and namas (as included in the 4 satipatthanas above)in the > development of satipatthana. If it were just ways of wise reflection, it > would never lead to enlightenment. > Jhana is the BEST place for observation of "namas, rupas, 5 aggregates, 6 consciousness, etc". "quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities â€" entered & remained in the first jhana. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana â€" directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,2 desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention â€" he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He understood, 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it, he confirmed that 'There is.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html "There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite â€" the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html --- Lots of Metta, Alex #82220 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 3:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the present moment TGrand458@... Hi Sarah Yes, its another one sided response that ignored the issue at hand. The Issue was the Cemetery Contemplations and whether thinking, conceptualization was involved or whether it is direct NOW experiencing that is involved. As usual, you folks move to a side topic and ignore the pertinent points. I guess, since you don't seem willing to directly confront legitimate points, I'll just have to conclude you have nothing to confront them with. :-( TG #82221 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 10:56 am Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas dhammanusara Dear Scott, - I like the the way you narrow down the discussion. > > Scott: Yes, it is the function of pa~n~naa to 'know and see' these > three characteristics in conditioned dhammas, as I understand it. > > SN 48(8) Bh. Bodhi trans.: > > "It is, bhikkhus, because he has developed and cultivated how many > faculties that a bhikkhu who has destroyed the taints declares final > knowledge thus. What five? The faculty of faith (sadhindriassa), the faculty of energy (viirindriyassa), the faculty of mindfulness > (satindriyassa), the faculty of concentration (samadhindriyassa), > the faculty of wisdom (pa~n~nindriyassa)." > > Note 232: "Spk: In this sutta and the next five [45(5), 46(6),47(7), > 48(8), 49(9)], the faculties of the fruit alone (phalindriyaan' eva) > are discussed. Spk-p.t: Because the teaching has come by way of the > supreme fruit." > Tep: The above quote is about the developed faculties in the arahant who has destroyed the taints. ............ > T: "...So the bhikkhu discerns the FNT appropriately and the faculty > of discernment conditions the right seeing which supports stream- entry as explained in MN 2. Does this conclusion make sense to you two or not? > > Scott: I think that I'm considering Right View to be a function of > pa~n~naa, and a support for but not equivalent to Stream Entry. I > think this is what you are saying as well. > Tep: Yes, I am saying that right view is not the same as Stream entry. I'm also saying that right view of the FNT that destroys the first fetters(as described in MN 2) is the right view of a Sotapanna who enters the Stream. Regards, Tep === #82222 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 11:56 am Subject: Vipassana on the Act of Seeing -- was [dsg] Re: WOW ... dhammanusara Hello Phil, - Let me reply briefly just to clarify an important point. Then I will not bother you anymore. But whenever you have time (and enthusiasm) to continue the discussion, then you just let me know. >Ph : Listening to the sayadaws on this sort of topic always makes sense to me, as this passage makes sense to me. They have so very many good talks, practical talks. However, this wouldn't fit with the approach I was talking about to Jon, because "visual form seen" is in Abhidhamma terms so fleet, one cannot note it as "seeing, seeing" it is already gone. In the Mahasi noting system, "seeing, seeing" would have to be, technically speaking, "thinking, thinking", according to Abhidhamma, it seems, because the object would be a sexy woman, etc, "flash of thigh", as I put it, which is a concept, not a visual form, technically speaking. This is what I don't get and was asking about a few weeks ago. I can see a defiled response to "flash of thigh", a concept, but not to "visual form" which is void of any conceptual content, according to Abhidhamma, at least according to Abhidhamma as presented by A.S, and I think what she says is consistent with CMA. T: You are trying to ride two canoes at the same time with one foot in each boat and your butt hanging in the air! No doubt you are confused. Remember, Mahasi did not know Khun Sujin's teaching. So we have to separately study his vipassana method of the seeing action (also hearing, touching, ...). Mindful noting (or noticing) of an arisen nama or rupa helps develop awareness and foster sense-door restraint so that the mind does not follow the sensed object outside (and stays unified inside). The meditator should at the same time develop panna (for seeing & knowing nama & rupa the way they really are) by "discerning the nature of the arising and passing away of seeing and the object seen" which, after a conscientious effort to practice again and again, momentarily frees the mind from craving/aversion. Sincerely, Tep === #82223 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 10:29 am Subject: Creating Future! bhikkhu0 Friends: Any Intention is creating the Future! Any moment of intentional mental activity creates and conditions the future! Any moment of intentional verbal activity creates and conditions the future! Any moment of intentional bodily activity creates and conditions the future! If the intention behind this thinking, speaking & doing is mixed with either greed, hate, ignorance or diluted derivatives thereof, this future will inevitably be mixed with resultant states of mental and physical pain… If the intention behind this thinking, speaking & doing is mixed with either non-greed, non-hate, non-ignorance or diluted derivatives thereof, this future will inevitably be mixed with resultant states of mental and physical pleasure… If the intention behind this thinking, speaking & doing is mixed neither with greed nor with non-greed, neither with hate nor with non-hate, & neither with ignorance nor with non-ignorance, this future will inevitably be mixed with resultant states of neither pain nor pleasure… Not intending any stills formation of becoming & is not creating any future…! Therefore: Be Aware! Watch the intention! Is it mixed with exactly what? Intention is literally seeding & producing moments of Ur future! No other Creator is found! Silencing intention creates Peace! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #82224 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 3:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta Vs natthatta . Was Buddha a Nihilist? truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > ... > S: When you contact the author, you could suggest he discuss his ideas > here with us! Not sure what the atman would have to do with 'light of > wisdom'. I talked to him through email (I think it was him who was a monk and who is a 'pali expert'). I asked him to come here, but he doesn't want to (he can't stand Theravada not to say later Buddhism). Anyhow, I do not agree with all his POVs (unless of course the English translations of Pali Suttas are gravely mistaken. Are all the references to his/her "Atta" merely reflexive or ontological?) Apparently he claims that the Buddha DID teach a Higher Self. In fact some researchers do suspect that original (what the Buddha really really taught) Buddhism included Higher Self. --> More recently, it has been suggested that a more satisfactory scheme of stratification can be developed on the basis of the strata of ideas rather than on the basis of stratifying the texts themselves. I have alluded elsewhere to some of the surprising results of ideological stratification: no 5 skandhas, no 12-fold pratitya-samutpada, no 8-fold path (at first), the centrality of the jhanas/dhyanas rather than vipasyana, the restricted application of the no-self doctrine, the possibility (indeed, likelihood) of some kind of "true self" concept, etc, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Anatta#Attasarana.27s_citations_of_G._ C._Pande --- Personally, reading TRANSLATIONS and reflecting on *MY* experiences I cannot justify the existence of true and Higher "Self". In this regard I agree with TB and Bhikkhu Bodhi. Lots of Metta, Alex #82225 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 5:46 pm Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "I like the the way you narrow down the discussion." Scott: Kind of you, Tep. SN 48(8) Bh. Bodhi trans.: "It is, bhikkhus, because he has developed and cultivated how many knowledge thus. What five? The faculty of faith (sadhindriyassa), the faculty of energy (viirindriyassa), the faculty of mindfulness (satindriyassa), the faculty of concentration (samadhindriyassa), the faculty of wisdom (pa~n~nindriyassa)." Note 232: "Spk: In this sutta and the next five [45(5), 46(6),47(7), 48(8), 49(9)], the faculties of the fruit alone (phalindriyaan' eva) are discussed. Spk-p.t: Because the teaching has come by way of the supreme fruit." Tep: The above quote is about the developed faculties in the arahant who has destroyed the taints. Scott: So it seems. This can't be, therefore, a how-to manual to achieve Stream Entry, as I believe Alex was suggesting. Tep: "Yes, I am saying that right view is not the same as Stream entry. I'm also saying that right view of the FNT that destroys the first fetters(as described in MN 2) is the right view of a Sotapanna who enters the Stream." Scott: What do you consider the relationship between Right View and pa~n~naa cetasika to be? Sincerely, Scott. #82226 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 6:12 pm Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: "It is, bhikkhus, because he has developed and cultivated how many faculties that a bhikkhu who has destroyed the taints declares final knowledge thus. What five? The faculty of faith (sadhindriyassa), the faculty of energy (viirindriyassa), the faculty of mindfulness (satindriyassa), the faculty of concentration (samadhindriyassa), the faculty of wisdom (pa~n~nindriyassa)." A: "Scott, in the above quote of BB, you have quoted the requirements for an Arahant - NOT a stream enterer." Scott: Yes, this was from the sutta provided by Tep. I added the Bh. Bodhi version to contrast with that by Thanissaro Bh. I also added the paa.li. Tep wrote: "Yonisomanasikara is a requisite for such eradication as stated in MN2. Why? Because discernment (panna) conditions knowing & seeing the dhammas (defined in the Okkanta-samyutta, SN 25.1 - SN 25.10 : cakkhu, rupa, vinnana, phassa, vedana, sanna, cetana, tanha. dhatu, khandha) as inconstant, changeable, alterable -- i.e. impermanent. "One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening." Scott: What do you think? A: "Right view by itself isn't enough for Arahatship, but for Stream Enterer or Dhamma/Faith follower is..." Scott: How do you define Right View? Do you still equate it with Stream Entry? Do you equate it with yoniso manasikaraa? Sincerely, Scott. #82227 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 6:33 pm Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas dhammanusara Dear Scott (and Alex), - Thank you for a further question. > > Scott: What do you consider the relationship between Right View and > pa~n~naa cetasika to be? > T: Pa~n~naa cetasika includes right view and the faculty of discernment, according to Dhammasangani. Tep === #82228 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 6:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro lbidd2 Hi Sarah, It seems, in the next paragraphs, that doubt about "the three divisions of time" is overcome by reason and discernment. Is there 'right reason' and 'wrong reason'? Larry #82229 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 7:03 pm Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "Pa~n~naa cetasika includes right view and the faculty of discernment, according to Dhammasangani." Scott: Would you say that Right View arises as a function of pa~n~naa cetasika, that is, by the penetration of dhammas by pa~n~naa which reveals anatta, anicca or dukkha? Or are Right View and pa~n~naa cetasika inseparable, perhaps synonymous? Sincerely, Scott. #82230 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 7:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment sukinderpal Hi Alex (and Phil), ============ Sukin, are implying (hopefully unintentionally) that Buddha lacked the ability to teach in A CLEAR way that would be understandable to MOST people? Do you think that his only audience were PhD proffessors? S: PhD professors? No way. Most of them wouldn’t bother with Dhamma, being motivated more by worldly knowledge and ambition. The Buddha’s direct audience saw through all that, and he taught them in a way only he could. They didn’t need the elaboration we need; therefore the Buddha didn’t have to use too many words with them. He probably foresaw the role of the commentators and for example Sariputta, re: his elaboration on the Abhidhamma when it came to the later generations. I’m sure that while he lived, his hands were full with people of better accumulations than us. ;-) On the other hand, it has been suggested by some, for example Phil, that the Buddha being the Great Teacher, he also taught those with very weak accumulations like us, about aspects of Dhamma ‘catered’ to our level of understanding. But in fact this is only Tanha speaking. Mr. Tanha thinks that the Buddha was speaking about that which he reads into any particular Sutta. But if we go by Phil’s reasoning and the Buddha did in fact water down his Dhamma in the particular way to suit dimwits, why is it that he couldn’t then find the right words for *all*, including the teachers of other sects and their disciples? The fact is that the Dhamma is *deep* and has one taste. Those who failed to understand were those who came in from one form of wrong view or the another looking for other flavors. Unless this is known, any attempt at making the Dhamma simple would not help since it would still sieve through such wrong views. Would the Buddha have wanted this to happen? Finally, I think that the Buddha would end up giving priority to those who were going to best benefit from his Dhamma. He knew also then, not to bother with those who wouldn’t and who may in fact take his message wrongly. Of course he did take into account whether it was the right time to say what he would and sometimes he lead his audience gradually to deeper understanding. But this would be because these people already accumulated the wisdom required in past lives, and had no wrong view come in to twist any of the Buddha’s message along the way. Metta, Sukin #82231 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 7:46 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? dhammanusara Hi Alex and Sarah (Han, Scott)), - For your kind consideration please allow me to throw in my one-Yen- worth comment on "contemplation" . > .... > S: I think that 'contemplation' (sampajaano) as used here and in other suttas refers not to a 'thinking about' or mere contemplation as we're used to use the term. >>> Alex (#82219): True, although in INITIAL stages thinking may be helpful as a way to turn attention to phenomenon. ................ T: In my humble opinion contemplation as used in the suttas is much more than just 'thinking about'; it is anupassana of the dhammas. For example, in the Satipatthana Sutta [MN 10; also, DN 22] the Pali for contemplation of the body in the body is 'kayanupassana'. 'Idha bhikkhave, bhikkhu, kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassam...' "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; ... [Translated from the Pali by Soma Thera] T: The Pali 'anupassana' was also translated as 'contemplation' in the Patism (translation by ~Nanamoli Bhikkhu) in section 244 on the seven anupassanas. 244. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that body? He contemplates it as impermanent (aniccato anupassati), not as permanent (no niccato); as painful (dukkhato anupassati), not as pleasant (no sukhato); as not self (anattato anupassati), not as self (no attato); he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not delight (no nandati); he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does not inflame it (no rajjati); he causes cessation (nirodheti), not arising (no samudeti); he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not grasp (no aadiyati). [Patisambhidamagga, III Breathing Treatise] T: The Pali inserts above were kindly given by our good friend Han Tun. I hope you may find my comment useful. Tep === #82232 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 8:27 pm Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas dhammanusara Dear Scott (Alex, Han, Nina, Sarah), - I am still struggling to pass your 6-hour oral examination. > >T: Pa~n~naa cetasika includes right view and the faculty of discernment, according to Dhammasangani. >Scott: Would you say that 1) Right View arises as a function of pa~n~naa cetasika, that is, by the penetration of dhammas by pa~n~naa which reveals anatta, anicca or dukkha? Or 2) are Right View and pa~n~naa cetasika inseparable, perhaps synonymous? T: I haven't seen your evaluation of the previous answer yet! Okay. I can only quess an answer for the first question and give you what I have seen in the Dhammasangani and Patism for the second one. 1) Yes. Panna cetasika accompanies yoniso-manasika, and it evolves from a mundane right view to the Arahant's supramundane right view (as explained in MN 117, for example). 2) In the Dhammasangani samma-ditthi is listed with several other "things" such as pa~n~nindrita (faculty of discernment in the five Indriyas), dhamma-vicara (a factor of the 7 bojjhanga), vipassana, pa~n~nabala, amoha. The same formula is also seen in the Patisambhidamagga where Pa~n~na also subsumes the four knowledges of the FNT. This shows some consistency between Patism and the Abhidhamma. 568. Knowledge in one who possesses the path is knowledge of suffering and it is knowledge of the origin of suffering and it is knowledge of the cessation of suffering and it is knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of sufferring. Herein, what is knowledge of suffering? Any understanding, act-of-understanding, investigation, reinvestigation, investigation-of-ideas, noting, noticing, taking notice, learning, skill, cleverness, estimation, ratiocination, scrutiny, over-all-ness, good-sense, piloting, insight, full-awareness, spur, understanding, understanding as faculty, understanding as power, understanding as weapon, understanding as stronghold, understanding as light, understanding as illumination, understanding as lighting up, understanding as treasure, non-delusion, investigation of ideas, right view, that arises contingent upon suffering : this is called knowledge of suffering (cf. Dhs 16). Any understanding, ... right view, that arises contingent upon the origin of suffering: ... Any understanding, ... right view, that arises contingent upon cessation of suffering: ... Any understanding, ... right view, that arises contingent upon the way leading to the cessation of sufferring: this is called knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of sufferring. [end quote] * * * Now that I have answereed your questions, it is time you give me the "key" to your questions. ;-)) Yours truly, Tep === #82233 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 8:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro sarahprocter... Hi Larry, Commentary Sceptics, Commentary Advocates & all, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > It seems, in the next paragraphs, that doubt about "the three divisions > of time" is overcome by reason and discernment. Is there 'right reason' > and 'wrong reason'? ... S: Like in the discussions with TG and Alex on 'comprehension', we'll need to consider further what is meant by 'reason and discernment'. Of course, there is right and wrong reason, but even if the reasoning is right, doubt can never be overcome just by thinking. Great, the fact that you're already in the next paras helps 'push' me into moving ahead. Otherwise, I'd probably stay on the introductory first 2 sentences forever, anyalysing each word:-)) Pls continue leading from behind:). I hope TG, Alex, DC and the Commentary-Sceptics (You know who you are!!) will raise their objections along the way too. Perhaps if I encourage them, I can put you, Ken H, Tep, Scott, Sukin and anyone else in charge of dealing with them:). OK, I'll try to press on before I lose momentum... Metta, Sarah ======= #82234 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 9:12 pm Subject: Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 2 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Purification by Overcoming Doubt Chapter XIX 1 I. Introductory 2 II. Ways of discerning cause and condition 3 1. Mentality-materiality is neither causeless nor created by a Maker ... S: We've looked at the introductory section so far. The following includes the second brief paragraph and the third section above: ***** [Ways of Discerning Cause and Condition] 2. The bhikkhu who want to accomplish this sets about seeking the cause and condition for that mentality-materiality; just as when a skilled physician encounters a disease he seeks its origin, or just as when a compassionate man sees a tender little child lying on its back in the road he wonders who its parents are. [Neither Created by a Creator nor Causeless 3. To begin with, he considers thus: 'Firstly this mentality-materiality is not causeless, because if that were so, it would follow that[, having no causes to differentiate it,] it would be identical everywhere always and for all. It has no Overlord, etc., because of the non-existence of any Overlord, etc. (Ch.XVI,85), over and above mentality-materiality. And because, if people then argue that mentality-materiality itself is its Overlord, etc., then it follows that their mentality-materiality, which they call the Overlord, etc., would itself be causeless. Consequently there must be a cause and a condition for it. What are they? 4. Having thus directed his attention to mentality-materiality's cause and condition, he first discerns the cause and condition for the material body in this way; 'When this body is born it is not born inside a blue, red or white lotus or water-lily, etc., or inside a store of jewels or pearls, etc.; on the contrary, like a worm in rotting fish, in a rotting corpse, in rotting dough, in a drain, in a cesspool, etc., it is born in between the receptacle for undigested food and the receptacle for digested food, behind the belly lining, in front of the backbone, surrounded by the bowel and the entrails, in a place that is stinking, disgusting, repulsive, and extremely cramped, being itself stinking, disgusting and repulsive. When it is born thus, its causes (root-causes) are the four things, namely, ignorance, craving, clinging, and kamma; [599] since it is they that bring about its birth; and nutriment is its condition, since it is that that consolidates it. So five things constitute its cause and condition. And of these, the three beginning with ignorance are the decisive-support for this body, as the mother is for her infant, and kamma begets it, as the father does the child; and nutriment sustains it, as the wet-nurse does the infant'. .... S: As was stressed in the last section, by understanding 'mentality and materiality (namas and rupas), there are no longer perceptions of a being or a body except in a conventional sense. So here, when it refers to 'a body (ruupa-kaaya) is born' and so on, it is referring to such rupas, produced from the moment of rebirth consciousness (patisandhi citta)by kamma, with ignorance, craving and clinging as decisive support (upanissaya paccaya) and nutriment (ahara paccaya) sustaining such 'body' rupas. It's the same now as we speak. Without past kammaa, accumulated past ignorance and attachment and nutriment supporting the body from the moment of birth (i.e conception), there would be no no rupas which we take for a body at all now. No Creator or Willer is involved. Metta, Sarah ======= #82235 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 9:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro lbidd2 Hi Sarah, The reason I brought up the question of right and wrong reason is because Ven. Nyanatiloka seems to say reason can be either kusala or akusala in his definition of "kankha" as a reasonable question. kankhá: 'doubt', may be either an intellectual, critical doubt or an ethically and psychologically detrimental doubt. The latter may either be a persistent negative skepticism or wavering indecision. Only the detrimental doubt (identical with vicikicchá, q.v.) is to be rejected as karmically unwholesome, as it paralyses thinking and hinders the inner development of man. Reasoned, critical doubt in dubious matters is thereby not discouraged. The 16 doubts enumerated in the Suttas (e.g. M. 2) are the following: "Have I been in the past? Or, have I not been in the past? What have I been in the past? How have I been in the past? From what state into what state did I change in the past? - Shall I be in the future? Or, shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? From what state into what state shall I change in the future? - Am I? Or, am I not? What am I? How am I? Whence has this being come? Whither will it go?" Larry: So my question was a reasonable question, not a skeptical doubt ;-)) Note the 16 doubts are reasonable questions about the three divisions of time. Larry #82236 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 4:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment TGrand458@... Hi Sukin What's all this wild assumption about who has wonderful accumulations and who doesn't. Even I don't hypothesize into "the outside world" to that extreme. ;-) That's just all really speculation right? Actually, the present social structure doesn't favorably support the type of life needed to become arahats as much as in the Buddha's day IMO. This doesn't mean its impossible, but just a lot less likely. The lack of a living Buddha to teach us doesn't help either. However, I think we are exactly the type of people that the Buddha would have sought out to teach. OK, maybe not in his first year...but after he went through the really good students...then sure. Yep, in today's world, not many people are attempting to go against the stream like us fools. So like they said in The Sound of Music -- "we must have done something good." The Buddha's teachings IMO are not so much complicated, but they are very very deep. In today's world, its no trick to find folks into complication. But finding deep thinkers is pretty rare. TG #82237 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 9:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro sarahprocter... Hi Larry, Nyantiloka is suggesting that kankhaa (doubt) can be kusala or akusala. This is a popular understanding, but I think it's wrong. --- LBIDD@... wrote: > The reason I brought up the question of right and wrong reason is > because Ven. Nyanatiloka seems to say reason can be either kusala or > akusala in his definition of "kankha" as a reasonable question. > > kankhá: 'doubt', may be either an intellectual, critical doubt or an > ethically and psychologically detrimental doubt. The latter may either > be a persistent negative skepticism or wavering indecision. Only the > detrimental doubt (identical with vicikicchá, q.v.) is to be rejected > as karmically unwholesome, as it paralyses thinking and hinders the > inner development of man. Reasoned, critical doubt in dubious matters is > thereby not discouraged. ... S: Firstly, kankhaa is a synonym for vicikicchaa (doubt). For example, see the Vibhanga, Analysis of Small Items (PTS transl, 915): "Therein what is doubt (vicikiccha)? One is puzzled (ka.mkati), doubts (vicikicchati) in the Teacher; one is puzzled, doubts in the Teaching; one is puzzled, doubts in the Order; one is puzzled, doubts in the precepts; one is puzzled, doubts in the ultimate beginning (of beings); one is puzzled, doubts in the ultimate end (of beings); one is puzzled, doubts in both the ultimate beginning and the ultimate end (of beings); one is puzzled, doubts in specific causality and dependently originated states; that which is similar, puzzlement (ka.mkhaa), being puzzled(ka.mkhaayanaa), state of being puzzled(ka.mkhaayitatta.m), rigidity of consciousness, mental scarifying. This is called doubt." Secondly, vicikicchaa (doubt) is always an akusala cetasika. Vism XIV, 177: "It is without wish to cure (vigataa cikicchaa), thus it is uncertainty (vicikicchaa). It has the characteristic of doubt. Its function is to waver. It is manifested as indecisiveness, or it is manifested as taking various sides. Its proximate cause is unwise attention...." Thirdly, in the context of Vism Ch XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt', clearly comments such as the one you quote above, "critical doubt in dubious matters is thereby not discouraged", make no sense. Such doubt is to be overcome! Metta, Sarah ======== #82238 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 9:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] noble truth sarahprocter... Hi Leo, --- Leo wrote: > I am not sure about correct translation of th First Noble Truth. > In some cases it looks to me it is translated as: Life is suffereing. > In other cases, there are Suttas, that tells about different happiness > in life. So from that I can come to conclusion, that First Noble Truth > shouls be: Lafe has suffering. (not life is suffering, or all suffering) > I would really appreciate, if you would tell me if it can be translated > like that: Life has suffering, from Pali language. ... S: "Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering, grief, lamentation, discomfort, unhappiness and despair are suffering; to wish for something and not obtain it is suffering; briefly, the five factors of attachment are suffering." (Rune Johansson's transl.) The last line is very important: "the five factors of attachment are suffering". Here, the five factors refer to the 5 khandhas which are clung to. You ask whether we can say 'life has suffering'. Actually, every reality which makes up life is suffering because it arises and falls away. Even happy feelings are dukkha. They don't last. Metta, Sarah ========= #82239 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 10:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? sarahprocter... Hi Steven, A good question: --- crosby_s wrote: > Totally wrong is the > belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result of previous > action. > > > > The part i have highlighted seems strange to me, i dont quite > understand > > why? ... S: This is because there are 24 causes or conditions by which dhammas (realities/phenomena) arise. Kamma is only one of them. It's good that you've found Nyantiloka's dictionary. It's very helpful. Metta, Sarah ======== #82240 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 10:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. CH XVIII, 23 sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Sarah: "It [the mundane path] is not a striving, selection or choice of > some other fantasy object." > > Larry: Adverting again and again to a particular kind of paramattha > dhamma isn't striving for a fantasy object. ... S: No, if there is adverting to a paramattha dhamma, is is the function of particular dhammas to advert to such by conditions. It is not a self who strives, selects or chooses any object. ... >It is striving for > understanding of reality. See Vism.XIV,3: "Understanding ... brings > about by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path." .. S: Here, understanding (pa~n~naa).... brings about the penetration of the characteristics[of dhammas] (lakkha.napa.tivedha~n), and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path (ussakkitvaa maggapaatubhaava~n ca paapeti)." In other words, it is pa~n~naa (and its associated path factors)which penetrate dhammas and by their 'endeavouring', attain the ariyan path. ... > Isn't going to dhamma talks again and again a striving for > understanding? ... S: 'Going to dhamma talks again and again' is a long, long story:-) There are many, many different cittas involved at such times, just as there are now. Some of these will be kusala, some akusala, just like now. If there is a 'striving for understanding' now, mostly it's likely to be an akusala wishing with attachment. But again, this is a situation and only pa~n~naa can possibly know when it directly understands the dhammas involved, what kind of realities are present. Metta, Sarah ========= #82241 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 4, 2008 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& All), --- Phil wrote: > P: ...I know you are very interested in this interpretation > of "seclusion" and I have said that I disagree because the more > typical meaning of seclusion is so predominant in the suttanta. For > example, I have recently come across the phrase "withdraw in body > and in mind" - It seems you are keen on the "withdraw in mind" > aspect but might be denying the importance of "withdraw in body", > the more typical meaning of "seclusion" in the physical sense. .... S: Even when we read about "withdraw in body", we have to consider the meaning carefully. As I wrote before, under 'viveka' in Nyantiloka's dictionary, he refers to the 3 kinds. The first of these is kaaya-viveka (bodily detachment or 'withdraw in body' as you write above). We have to carefully consider what is meant by the phrase. I just googled for your exact phrase 'withdraw in body and mind' + sutta. The first entry took me to MN 36, Mahaasaccaka Sutta. The on-line translation refers to 'withdrawn from sensuality in body and mind'. Referring now to the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation, Aggivessana suggests that the Buddha's disciples pursue "development of mind (cittabhaavanaa), but not development of body (kaayabhaavanaa)". When the Buddha asks him what he has learned about the development of body, he describes all sorts of ascetic and other practices, such as those related to ways and amounts of eating. The Buddha says that these are not 'development of body' according to his teachings and therefore he can't know what 'development of mind' is. After describing the one 'undeveloped in body(abhaa-vitakaayo) and undeveloped in mind (abhaa-vitacitto)", he then describes the one developed in body and mind.[on-line transl: 'withdraw in body and withdraw in mind']: "And how, Aggivessana, is one developed in body and develped in mind? Here, Aggivessana, pleasant feeling arises in a well-taught noble disciple. Touched by that pleasant feeling, he does not lust after pleasure or continue to lust after pleasure. That pleasant feeling of his ceases. With the cessation of the pleasant feeling, painful feeling arises. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, and lament, he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. "When that pleasant feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his mind and remain because body is developed. And when that painful feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his mind and remain because mind is developed. Anyone in whom, in this double manner, arisen pleasant feeling does not invade his mind and remain because body is developed, and arisen painful feeling does not invade his mind and reamian because mind is developed, is thus developed in body(bhaavitakaayo) and developed in mind (bhaavitacitto)." note: "MA expalins that "development of body" here is insight, and "development of mind" concentration. When the noble disciple experiences pleasant feeling, he does not become overwhelmed by it because, through his development of insight, he understands the feeling to be impermanent, unsatisfactory, and essenceless; and when he experiences painful feeling, he does not become overwhelemed by it because, through his development of concentration, he is able to escape from it by entering into one of the meditative absorptions." ***** S: No need to reply, but if you have comments or any other suttas in mind that you'd like to dislike anytime, of course I'll be glad to consider further. Metta, Sarah ======== #82242 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 4:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness .. developed body .. dhammanusara Hi Sarah, - I have just one question. >Sarah(quoting MN 36): > "When that pleasant feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his mind and remain because body is developed". T: What do you think "body is developed" means? Thank you very much. Tep === #82243 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 4:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the present moment sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- TGrand458@... wrote: > Yes, its another one sided response that ignored the issue at hand. ... S: In my messages, I wasn't attempting to (or interested to) take up all the issues which you, Nina and others had been discussing. Far too hot to handle:). I was just picking up one small, but important point, in each of my posts which are a recurring theme in our discussions. I was interested to consider them further, that's all. ... > The > Issue was the Cemetery Contemplations and whether thinking, > conceptualization > was involved or whether it is direct NOW experiencing that is involved. ... S: Isn't there always just the direct NOW experiencing, regardless of whether there is currently conceptualizing of any kind, sense-experiencing or any direct awareness? Apologies if I've missed the point. The list was very busy and I don't wish to/have time to go back over the past discussion. Metta, Sarah ===== #82244 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 4:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, TYPO --- sarah abbott wrote: > S: No need to reply, but if you have comments or any other suttas in > mind > that you'd like to dislike anytime.... .... S: I'm sure there aren't any suttas 'you'd like to dislike anytime', lol! As I'm sure you realised, I meant 'like to discuss anytime'. Come to think of it, if you're trying to get out, it could always be 'dislike to discuss...':-)). Take your pick! S. #82245 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 4:50 am Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "I am still struggling to pass your 6-hour oral examination." Scott: Time to give up the struggle. The '6-hour oral examination' is a figment of your imagination. Its actually an infinite oral examination and we are both taking it. T: "Pa~n~naa cetasika includes right view and the faculty of discernment, according to Dhammasangani." Scott: I read it this way as well. > > >Scott: Would you say that 1) Right View arises as a function of > pa~n~naa cetasika, that is, by the penetration of dhammas by pa~n~naa > which reveals anatta, anicca or dukkha? Or 2) are Right View and > pa~n~naa cetasika inseparable, perhaps synonymous? > T: "1) Yes. Panna cetasika accompanies yoniso-manasika, and it evolves from a mundane right view to the Arahant's supramundane right view (as explained in MN 117, for example)." Scott: In Note 1101 to MN 117 [regarding the passage "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first (sammadi.t.thi pu"bbangamaa hoti). And how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as wrong view (micchaadi.t.thi.m 'miccaadi.t.thii 'ti pajaanaati) and right view as right view (sammaadi.t.thi.m 'sammaadi.t.thii 'ti pajaanaati): this is one's right view."] Bh. Bodhi states, while adding the Commentarial gloss: "This statement suggests that in order to acquire right view about the nature of reality, one must first be able to distinguish between wrong and right teachings on the nature of reality. MA says that this is the right view of insight which understands wrong view as an object by penetrating its characteristics of impermanence, etc., and which understands right view by exercising the function of comprehension and by clearing away confusion." Scott: Here, it seems, right view can also be object for pa~n~naa suggesting that right view is a function of pa~n~naa and can be object of pa~n~naa, which makes sense. T: "2) In the Dhammasangani samma-ditthi is listed with several other "things" such as pa~n~nindrita (faculty of discernment in the five Indriyas), dhamma-vicara (a factor of the 7 bojjhanga), vipassana, pa~n~nabala, amoha. The same formula is also seen in the Patisambhidamagga where Pa~n~na also subsumes the four knowledges of the FNT. This shows some consistency between Patism and the Abhidhamma..." Scott: Thanks for adding this. Patism. and Dhammasa"nga.ni do seem consistent in their listing of the characteristics of pa~n~naa. "568...Herein, what is knowledge of suffering? Any understanding, act-of-understanding, investigation, reinvestigation, investigation-of-ideas, noting, noticing, taking notice, learning, skill, cleverness, estimation, ratiocination, scrutiny, over-all-ness, good-sense, piloting, insight, full-awareness, spur, understanding, understanding as faculty, understanding as power, understanding as weapon, understanding as stronghold, understanding as light, understanding as illumination, understanding as lighting up, understanding as treasure, non-delusion, investigation of ideas, right view, that arises contingent upon suffering : this is called knowledge of suffering (cf. Dhs 16)." "[Dhs 16] The insight which there is on that occasion is understanding, search, research, searching the Doctrine, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth, sagacity, a 'guide,' intuition, intelligence..." T: "Now that I have answereed your questions, it is time you give me the "key" to your questions. ;-))" Scott: The key is that we are studying together! I don't know any answers. Sincerely, Scott. #82246 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:18 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 34 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 498. "Assu tha~n~na.m rudhira.m, sa.msaara.m anamataggato saratha; sattaana.m sa.msarata.m, saraahi a.t.thiina~nca sannicaya.m. 496. "Remember the tears, the milk, the blood, [and] continued existence as being without beginning or end. Remember the heap of bones of beings who are journeying on. Assu tha~n~na.m rudhiranti ya.m ~naatibyasanaadinaa phu.t.thaana.m rodantaana.m assu ca daarakakaale maatuthanato piita.m tha~n~na~nca ya~nca paccatthikehi ghaatitaana.m rudhira.m. Sa.msaara.m anamataggato sa.msaarassa anu amataggattaa ~naa.nena anugantvaapi amata-aggattaa aviditaggattaa iminaa diighena addhunaa sattaana.m sa.msarata.m, aparaapara.m sa.msarantaana.m sa.msarita.m saraahi, ta.m "kiiva bahukan"ti anussaraahi, a.t.thiina.m sannicaya.m saraahi anussara, upadhaarehiiti attho. 496. The tears, the milk, the blood means: the tears when they were weeping, affected by the loss of relatives, etc,* and the milk drunk from their mother's breast when they were young; and the blood of those who were dilled by enemies. Continued existence without beginning or end (ana-mat'-aggato), having also conformed to the knowledge of the fact of the unknown beginning (anu-amat'-aggattaa) of continued existence, remember (saraahi) the journeying on in continued existences again and again, the continued existence of beings through this long journey because of the fact it is of unknown beginning (a-mata-aggattaa = avidit'-aggattaa), remember (anussaraahi) how many there are. Remember (saraahi = anussara), keep in mind, the heap of bones. *Five kinds of loss are given at D III 235 (LDB 495), A III 147 (GS III 112): loss of relatives, wealth, health, morality, and [right] view. The first three are in Vin IV 277 (BD III 281f). At D III 235, the last two are said to lead to evil states and hell but not the first three. 499. "Sara caturodadhii, upaniite assutha~n~narudhiramhi; sara ekakappama.t.thiina.m, sa~ncaya.m vipulena sama.m. 497. "Remember the four oceans compared with tears, milk, and blood. Remember the heap of bones [of one man] for one aeon equal [in size] to Mount Vipula. Idaani aadiinavassa bahubhaava~nca upamaaya dassetu.m "sara caturodadhii"ti gaathamaaha. Tattha sara caturodadhii upaniite assutha~n~narudhiramhiiti imesa.m sattaana.m anamataggasa.msaare sa.msarantaana.m ekekassapi assumhi tha~n~ne rudhiramhi ca pamaa.nato upametabbe caturodadhii cattaaro mahaasamudde upamaavasena buddhehi upaniite sara saraahi. Ekakappama.t.thiina.m, sa~ncaya.m vipulena samanti ekassa puggalassa ekasmi.m kappe a.t.thiina.m sa~ncaya.m vepullapabbatena sama.m upaniita.m sara. Vuttampi cesa.m- "Ekassekena kappena, puggalassa.t.thisa~ncayo; siyaa pabbatasamo raasi, iti vutta.m mahesinaa. "So kho panaaya.m akkhaato, vepullo pabbato mahaa; uttaro gijjhakuu.tassa, magadhaana.m giribbaje"ti. (Sa.m. ni. 2.133). 497. And now, in order to point of the manifold nature of the dangers through a simile, she spoke the verse beginning Remember the four oceans. There, remember the four oceans compared with the tears, milk, and blood (assu-tha~n~na-ruchiramhi) means: remember (sara = saraahi) the four oceans (caturo 'dadhii), the four great oceans (cattaaro mahaa-samudde) compared by the Buddhas through a simile with the amount of tears (assumhi), milk (tha~n~ne), and blood (rudhirambhi) that should be compared for each of these individuals journeying on in continued existence without a beginning or end.* [Remember] the heap of bones [of one mean] for one aeon (eka-kappa.m) equal [in size] to Mount Vipula means: remember the heap of bones of one man for one aeon (ekasmi.m kappe) compared with [being] equal [in size] to Mount Vepulla (Vepulla-pabbatena).** And this is also said [S II 185 (KS II 125); It 17 (TI 17)]: The Great Sage has said that the collected bones of one man in a single aeon would be equal [in size] to a mountain. Moreover, he proclaimed this to be greater than Mount Vepulla, which is higher than Vulture Peak in Giribbaja of Magadha. *See S II 179-81 (KS II 120f), where it is said that the flood of tears shed and the mother's milk drunk in various lives is greater than all the water in the four oceans. **See S II 185 (KS II 124f) and It 17f (MinAnth II 128, TI 17) where it is said that the heap of bones for one man in his lives during one aeon would be equal in size to Mount Vipula (also spelled: Vepulla). Mount Vipula was the highest of five mountains near Raajagaha. ===to be continued, connie #82247 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:33 am Subject: Re: the present moment sukinderpal Hi TG, =================== > What's all this wild assumption about who has wonderful accumulations and > who doesn't. Even I don't hypothesize into "the outside world" to that > extreme. ;-) That's just all really speculation right? :-) Yeah, some speculation there, but lets see if there is any basis. According to the Suttas and Vinaya, there were indeed very many people who got enlightened after hearing the Buddha. Very few of them I presume had to hear as much as half of what we have before getting enlightened. The most well known teachers of today (with the exception of A. Sujin ;-)), none of them come across to me as being very `bright'. Certainly we members of DSG, who have heard and considered so much, (and there is no better Buddhist group on the net), are no where close to having experienced any of the vipassana nanas, let alone magga. This I think says a lot about the difference in accumulations. ================== > Actually, the present social structure doesn't favorably support the type of > life needed to become arahats as much as in the Buddha's day IMO. This > doesn't mean its impossible, but just a lot less likely. The lack of a living > Buddha to teach us doesn't help either. I never take these factors into consideration, nor do I take into account the commentarial prediction of the sasana lasting no more than 5000 years. Not everyone who heard the Buddha directly gained much good from the experience and there were some who wouldn't even listen. Possibly we were even there amongst his audience and can now be evidence of the fact of the Buddha not always being able to bring about dramatic changes in others. We may even have had the merit to have a one to one audience with the Buddha, but the encounter was not significant enough to be mentioned in the Suttas. ;-) Anyway, we know where we are, unless we are so completely deluded to think along the lines "that we could become Stream Enterers in this present life if only we practiced hard enough". True, it is possible that there are people with great potential out there, only they may not have had the merit to hear the Dhamma yet. When I see animals and think about their `accumulations', I often picture them as possibly having better accumulations than I do. However when it comes to those who *have* been exposed to the Dhamma in this life, the statistics show nothing to be optimistic about. ================== > However, I think we are exactly the type of people that the Buddha would > have sought out to teach. OK, maybe not in his first year...but after he went > through the really good students...then sure. Yep, in today's world, not many > people are attempting to go against the stream like us fools. So like they > said in The Sound of Music -- "we must have done something good." :-) Yeah, "we must have done something good" to be able to hear and appreciate the Dhamma. But no, I don't think that it is good enough to be one who the Buddha would seek out to teach. If we were indeed worthy, after hearing and considering as much as we have, then I think we should by now be close to experiencing insight. It doesn't look like we are anywhere near that. This is from record; however when it comes to the actual workings of kamma and dhammas especially the fact of natural decisive support condition, I admit we can't know what will happen at anytime. So good luck (accumulations), to you! ;-) ================ > The Buddha's teachings IMO are not so much complicated, but they are very > very deep. In today's world, its no trick to find folks into complication. > But finding deep thinkers is pretty rare. No I don't think it is complicated, just the experiences through the six doorways. Only among these experiences, it so happen that almost every other citta is conditioned by `ignorance" and yes, this is what causes unnecessary complication. Regarding "deep thinkers", there is no shortage of this. Most of them however, think deeply with wrong view. ;-) I have yet to answer two posts of yours before this one. Please give me a little time for that. Metta, Sukin #82248 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 6:11 am Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas dhammanusara Dear Scott, - Thank you for the discussion/oral-exam that is well done. I like your last remark: >Scott: The key is that we are studying together! I don't know any > answers. T: And I also like your correction of what I wrote earlier. >Scott: Its actually an infinite oral examination and we are both taking it. T: Yes. So let's turn on a soft music, while we continue to take our examination together. Best wishes, Tep === #82249 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 6:39 am Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas scottduncan2 Dear Tep, T: "Yes. So let's turn on a soft music, while we continue to take our examination together." Scott: :-) What about the gentle Ramones? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks_1ryhPXJA Sincerely, Scott. #82250 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness .. developed body .. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Sarah) - In a message dated 2/5/2008 7:01:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Sarah, - I have just one question. >Sarah(quoting MN 36): > "When that pleasant feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his mind and remain because body is developed". T: What do you think "body is developed" means? -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not Sarah ;-), but I'll hazard a guess: It might mean "being adept at guarding the body door." ------------------------------------------------------- Thank you very much. Tep ========================== With metta, Howard #82251 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cemetery contemplations and Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nilovg Dear TG (and Connie), TG just being back (one day earlier) I read your posts saying you would return to the cemetery contemplations. Different people who hear about them have different levels of understanding. It is helpful to consider other suttas where bones are mentioned, I think. Now I am so inspired by Connie's post. The heap of bones of one single 'person' throughout the aeons, being greater than Mount Vipulla. It is a reminder of our being in the cycle of birth and death. The dukkha of samsara: all the tears, the oceans of tears. And an exhortation: develop understanding to the level of reaching the end of samsara. Nina. Op 5-feb-2008, om 14:18 heeft L G SAGE het volgende geschreven: > Remember the four oceans. There, remember the four oceans compared > with the tears, milk, and blood (assu-tha~n~na-ruchiramhi) means: > remember (sara = saraahi) the four oceans (caturo 'dadhii), the > four great oceans (cattaaro mahaa-samudde) compared by the Buddhas > through a simile with the amount of tears (assumhi), milk > (tha~n~ne), and blood (rudhirambhi) that should be compared for > each of these individuals journeying on in continued existence > without a beginning or end.* [Remember] the heap of bones [of one > mean] for one aeon (eka-kappa.m) equal [in size] to Mount Vipula > means: remember the heap of bones of one man for one aeon (ekasmi.m > kappe) compared with [being] equal [in size] to Mount Vepulla > (Vepulla-pabbatena).** And this is also said [S II 185 (KS II 125); > It 17 (TI 17)]: > The Great Sage has said that the collected bones of one man in a > single aeon would be equal [in size] to a mountain. Moreover, he > proclaimed this to be greater than Mount Vepulla, which is higher > than Vulture Peak in Giribbaja of Magadha. > > *See S II 179-81 (KS II 120f), where it is said that the flood of > tears shed and the mother's milk drunk in various lives is greater > than all the water in the four oceans. > **See S II 185 (KS II 124f) and It 17f (MinAnth II 128, TI 17) > where it is said that the heap of bones for one man in his lives > during one aeon would be equal in size to Mount Vipula (also > spelled: Vepulla). Mount Vipula was the highest of five mountains > near Raajagaha. #82252 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness .. developed body .. dhammanusara Hi Howard (Sarah), - Thank you for participating in this discussion. > >Sarah(quoting MN 36): > > > "When that pleasant feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his > mind and remain because body is developed". > > T: What do you think "body is developed" means? > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm not Sarah ;-), but I'll hazard a guess: It might mean "being adept at guarding the body door." > ------------------------------------------------------- T: That is a good guess, Howard. Similar to that I used to think of kayagatasati and indriya-samvara (sense restraint) as way to develop the body (so it remains calm, not aroused by raga or agitated by extreme weathers, insect bites, etc.). But the translator's note says this : "According to MN 36 a person developed in body is one whose mind is not invaded by feelings of pleasure, and a person developed in mind is one whose mind is not invaded by feelings of pain". And I thought Sarah, as usual, might have a different theory. Regards, Tep === #82254 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 8:08 am Subject: Re: WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas dhammanusara Dear Scott, - Thank you for the Web link. > > T: "Yes. So let's turn on a soft music, while we continue to take our > examination together." > > Scott: :-) > > What about the gentle Ramones? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks_1ryhPXJA > T: Nah, it may make me dancing around (with my brain hanging upside down) instead of concentrating on exam questions. Peace, Tep === #82255 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 8:12 am Subject: Re: the present moment avalo1968 Hello DSG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > The most well known teachers of today (with the exception > of A. Sujin ;-)), none of them come across to me as being very > `bright'. Certainly we members of DSG, who have heard and considered > so much, (and there is no better Buddhist group on the net), are no > where close to having experienced any of the vipassana nanas, let > alone magga. > This I think says a lot about the difference in accumulations. > I agree that DSG is a group where it is possible to read good and substantive discussions on the Dhamma and for that reason is an important resource on the net. That is why it is such a disappointment that those discussions are so often marred by the arrogance and disrespect for other teachers and practitioners that is the habit of some, although certainly not all, of Ajahn Sujin's students. Everytime I see this I have to ask myself again why I come to DSG - is it worth it? I am posting now not because I want to be critical but because this issue gets to the heart of why I have never been able to understand the teachings of Ajahn Sujin. So often in the "there are only dhammas" discussions it has seemed to me that what is lost is the fact that there are people, people who deserve generousity, kindness, and respect. This is why so many times I have come away from browsing at DSG feeling that Ajahn Sujin's teachings show great mastery of the letter of the Buddhist teachings, but what of the spirit? I could be wrong and maybe it is just that I really don't understand these teachings - that here at DSG I am over my head. Please consider what I say not as criticism but as just something I offer to be looked at and if you think I am off the mark, then forgotten. Robert A. #82256 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 3:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness .. developed body .. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Sarah) - In a message dated 2/5/2008 10:53:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Howard (Sarah), - Thank you for participating in this discussion. > >Sarah(quoting MN 36): > > > "When that pleasant feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his > mind and remain because body is developed". > > T: What do you think "body is developed" means? > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm not Sarah ;-), but I'll hazard a guess: It might mean "being adept at guarding the body door." > ------------------------------------------------------- T: That is a good guess, Howard. Similar to that I used to think of kayagatasati and indriya-samvara (sense restraint) as way to develop the body (so it remains calm, not aroused by raga or agitated by extreme weathers, insect bites, etc.). But the translator's note says this : "According to MN 36 a person developed in body is one whose mind is not invaded by feelings of pleasure, and a person developed in mind is one whose mind is not invaded by feelings of pain". --------------------------------------------------- Howard: There's nothing in the phrase itself that would suggest that. (Perhaps in the rest of the sutta, or as suggested by similar usage in other suttas.) -------------------------------------------------- And I thought Sarah, as usual, might have a different theory. Regards, Tep ========================= With metta, Howard #82257 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the present moment TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/5/2008 5:12:25 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: Isn't there always just the direct NOW experiencing, regardless of whether there is currently conceptualizing of any kind, sense-experiencing or any direct awareness? ...................................... Hi Sarah Sure. I don't understand what that's got to do with anything particularly Buddhist or otherwise though. I was under the impression that when folks in this group were talking about direct "now" experiencing vs conceptualization that it was in relation to developing or advancing in the Buddha's teaching. I thought mindfulness was the issue at hand. For example, If I reflect on a decomposed corpse, and realize that this (my) body too will become like that; my mind is liable to engage in various states. Besides conceptualizing and rationalization of the corpse and comparison to my body, I might also be mindful of present feelings, bodily postures, etc and realize that it is this conglomeration of elements, etc. that will die and decompose. Therefore, the mind is using, consecutively, inferential activities and direct mindful monitoring of current states. This is one example of what I mean by BOTH mindfulness and deductive thought as being important and indeed, necessary to advancing in developing insight. One doesn't just only conceptualize themselves to enlightenment. Nor does one just only apply bare awareness as a path to enlightenment. Its so obvious that the Abhidhamma is this huge conceptual framework of things to learn/conceptualize as part of the learning process. But it seems like you guys are afraid to admit that conceptualization plays an important role in developing insight. Its actually one of the backbones of insight IMO. TG #82258 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/5/2008 6:33:53 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, sukinder@... writes: Anyway, we know where we are, unless we are so completely deluded to think along the lines "that we could become Stream Enterers in this present life if only we practiced hard enough". ............................................ Hi Sukin You are way to pessimistic. With this attitude, you surely won't have any chance of being enlightened. Common now...you mindfulness junkies (a good thing)...didn't the Buddha say you could become enlightened overnight if you just practice hard enough and diligently enough. Why do you so flatly deny the Buddha's teaching? Because we're past the 500 limit? Remember, that limit was meant to signify the teachings had disappeared, and they haven't. I find this attitude pretty sad. If this is what your esteemed teacher is teaching, what a downer. TG #82259 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 9:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro truth_aerator Dear Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Larry, Commentary Sceptics, Commentary Advocates & all, > > Pls continue leading from behind:). I hope TG, Alex, DC and the > Commentary-Sceptics (You know who you are!!) will raise their objections > along the way too. Perhaps if I encourage them, I can put you, Ken H, Tep, > Scott, Sukin and anyone else in charge of dealing with them:). > The Suttas are the only ultimate guide left. Not some "elder" who may even have seen Buddha face to face (Sati did, Devadatta did, Arittha did, etc). Nothing to say about Brahmins living 1000 years later who came from a Brahmin background and consciously or subconsciously reinterpreted the teachings. Religious Brahmins HATED Buddha, they resisted Buddha from outside and now from the inside as well. Lots of Metta, alex #82260 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 9:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment moellerdieter Hi Robert A, all.. you wrote: 'Hello DSG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > The most well known teachers of today (with the exception > of A. Sujin ;-)), none of them come across to me as being very > `bright'. Certainly we members of DSG, who have heard and considered > so much, (and there is no better Buddhist group on the net), are no ... snip D: an excellent posting , Robert.. thanks for sharing ! with Metta Dieter #82261 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro dhammanusara Dear Sarah, - I am surprised to see my name being included in the same group with Abhidhamma-wise-men like KenH and Sukin. > > Sarah (talking to Larry): > Pls continue leading from behind:). I hope TG, Alex, DC and the > Commentary-Sceptics (You know who you are!!) will raise their objections along the way too. Perhaps if I encourage them, I can put you, KenH, Tep, Scott, Sukin and anyone else in charge of dealing with them:). > When did I pass your qualification test? ;-)) Regards, Tep === #82262 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:31 am Subject: Re: the present moment truth_aerator Sukin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > According to the Suttas and Vinaya, there were indeed very many people who got enlightened after hearing the Buddha. Very few of them I presume had to hear as much as half of what we have before getting > enlightened. >>> Maybe because they've used very WELL those few instructions that they have recieved? Maybe they didn't have the insatiable greed for more and more mind objects (intellectual accumulations to grab on and hold). They went into solitude and practiced meditation really really seriously and energetically, rather than finding excuses about why they can't. >>>> The most well known teachers of today (with the exception > of A. Sujin ;-)), none of them come across to me as being very > `bright'. >>>>>>> I beg your pardon? Do you have telepathy? Do you know for SURE that such and such is on such and such level? Are you are implying very negative thinga regarding "most well known teachers of today" . Do you understand that if they are Ariyas the Kamma you are making? == AN Text V, 141, X, VIII, 75 Wherefore, Ananda, be ye not measurers in persons, take not the measures of persons. One is *ruined*, Ananda, by taking the measure of persons. But I myself, Ananda, and whose is like unto me, could take the measure of persons. == AN11 text V, 317, XI, 1 6 VI Disaster 'Monks, if any monk abuses and reviles, rails at the Ariyans who are his fellows in the Brahma-life, it is utterly impossible, it is unavoidable that he should not come to one or other of eleven disasters. What eleven? He fails to attain the unattained. From what he has attained he falls away; True Dhamma is not made clear to him; He is conceited about true dhammas; He follows the Brahma-life without delight therein; commits some foul offence gives up the training and falls back to the low life Falls into some grievous sickness; goes out of his mind with distraction; he makes and end with mind confused and when body breaks up, beyond death, rises up again in the Waste, the Ill-bourn, the Downfall, in Purgatory." === >>> are no where close to having experienced any of the vipassana nanas, let alone magga. >>>> Do you do Vipassana meditation? How much and how often? I've heard of people going to Burma and doing 18+ hours a day of intensive Vipassana. >> > This I think says a lot about the difference in accumulations. >>> Mental Bhavana is the best merit... > ================== > I never take these factors into consideration, nor do I take into > account the commentarial prediction of the sasana lasting no more than 5000 years. >>>> In AN I've read it was 500 years. What we can be certain is that the best material is found in the 4 main Nikayas. Unfortunately too few people take this into consideration and really on poetic works of the outsiders.... >>> Not everyone who heard the Buddha directly gained much good from the experience and there were some who wouldn't even listen. >>>> Because some people are simply not interested in "Putting down the burden, Detaching from aggregates, ending and quenching all tanha and such.". Some people want to GAIN something rather then to shed. Not many people have enough faith to go into the woods... >>> Anyway, we know where we are, unless we are so completely deluded to think along the lines "that we could become Stream Enterers in this present life if only we practiced hard enough". >>>> Oh My! This is why I should be leaving this group, it is simply bad causes to read about "oh it can't be done. We don't have the accumulations... Magga is unachievable, no need to do anything... No effort and other [non Buddhist teaching]". About myself, I am confident. If not about this life (only due to potential past kammic hindrances) then about the next life. > True, it is possible that there are people with great potential out > there, only they may not have had the merit to hear the Dhamma yet. > When I see animals and think about their `accumulations', I often > picture them as possibly having better accumulations than I do. > However when it comes to those who *have* been exposed to the Dhamma > in this life, the statistics show nothing to be optimistic about. >>>> >>> Oh my! > ================== > :-) Yeah, "we must have done something good" to be able to hear and > appreciate the Dhamma. But no, I don't think that it is good enough to > be one who the Buddha would seek out to teach. >>> If you were satisfied with hearing 2-3 discources and then rushing into the forest to practice, THEN maybe the meeting would be TRULY productive. This is how actually most got Arahatship. They either were already wonderers/ascetics before or after. >>> If we were indeed worthy, after hearing and considering as much as we have, then I think we should by now be close to experiencing insight. It doesn't look like we are anywhere near that. >>>> Did you achieve Jhana? If you did and didn't achieve any insights, then try the deeper Jhana. Or try more energetically to reflect on what has happened there. > ================ > > > The Buddha's teachings IMO are not so much complicated, but they are very > very deep. In today's world, its no trick to find folks into > complication. > > But finding deep thinkers is pretty rare. >>>> This is true in a sense that Buddha taught what NEEDS TO BE DONE. Some people had enough faith, energy & wisdom to hear few discources and rush into the woods. If you believe you can or you can't - then you are probably RIGHT! Whatever a teacher should do â€" seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them â€" that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice [alex:meditation] jhana, Ananda. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you all." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.152.than.html Lots of Metta & Karuna, Alex #82263 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 12:32 pm Subject: 4 Goods! bhikkhu0 Friends: 4 hard-core-real Advantages: A deity once asked the Buddha What is good even when one is old? What is good when established? What is human's most precious treasure? What is hard for thieves to steal? The blessed Buddha answered: Morality is good even when one is old! Faith is good when established! Understanding is human's most precious treasure! Merit is what is hard for thieves to steal! Samyutta Nikaya I 36 Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #82264 From: "colette" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro ksheri3 Hi Alex and Sarah, This is such a delicuous post to reply to but after that fleeting second of repose when I got to the end of the entire post I was forced to re-evaluate the situation I was impressed by. It was encouraging to hear Sarah invite discourse, invite contrary or "Contra" positions, but at the end of her post, which Alex replied to, she wrote: "... and anyone else in charge of dealing with them." How disheartening to hear that! Sarah clearly makes the case that "All things remain constant" is an Axiom, as if it was a scientific fact that can be tested and re-tested and still ending up in the same position or same answer. Buddhism is totallty about achieving ENLIGHTENMENT and ENLIGHTENMENT IS A CONTRADICTORY POSITION! The status quo is completely conditioned and enslaved to the devotion of ORDER of total group decisions reaching nothing less than group dictums or procedure manuals. Obviously this is a contradictory position to some absolutely delicsious prose I am reading from the Dharma Fellowship concerning yogacara and a yogacara form of meditation. ------------------------------------- Alex, surely you've been reading the webs I'm spinning as we speak, in different Western Traditions' sites. I cannot help but laugh since you see that I've done it again! I'm unlocking doors and re- discovering things long since dorment or "on pause" BECAUSE you apply the word "elders" so skillfully in my objectivisation of the 3rd Council formed by King Asoka and marked by Nargaruna and Vasubandhu's participation or contributions. I was very saddened by a post I received in my box from one of the Buddhist groups I'm a member of, that stated a person saw and believed that the 4 Noble Truths are there for a person to achieve Nobility as if practicing the 4 Noble Truths was a way to purchase Nobility as if it were a bauble or trinket sold on the shelves of retail stores for mass distribution. This is just my opinion: Brahmins that come from a Brahmin background are the most blind of the blind, if there could ever be different levels of blindness of spirit. That, in itself, is a contradictory statement since anything done with percerverence can be said to be done with great spirit. I fall back on my friends in the Dharma Fellowship who have invited me to read some wonderfully writen material of theirs. It all centers on the practice of meditation. I cannot see any meditation done in a setting of more than the invidivual meditator as being of any value. Sure, I eventually learned how to have coffee and read the newspaper or read one of my books, back in the 90s, in places like Starbucks but that was simply to open the fields of my meditations. Sure I could have singlemindedness but I was very vulnerable to outside influences and distractions that may have and did invade my consciousness THUS influencing what I was contemplating. STILL, solitude and calm, having the correct conditions to actually practice meditation, is the most fruicious. Here in the states it's Super Tuesday (an election day) but it has a bigger meaning since I lived in New Orleans this means that today is FAT TUESDAY, we all know what that means don't we? I'll give this some thought as I search for my Samde material on Dzogchen. toodles, colette #82265 From: "colette" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 1:59 pm Subject: Good Abidings ksheri3 Good Day Connie, About a week ago I was reading a piece on Sarvastivadans and recalled that at one time you chuckled at me as "possibly" being a Sarvastivadan or was it a Suatrantika (Miss Spelling Highly involved)? The key here is that I read and noted the other night that some passages of another manuscript were similar to the descriptions of Sarvastavadans: "The knower is not what is known. But in deep meditation, these three separate things -- mind, knowing perception, and the object of perception -- collapse into an indescribable Unity. Knower, knowing and known become one." In the meditative process I can verify this as being a good way to describe the actual sensation of this sort of Bliss and Samadhi but the key factor here is that description of an act or action is very similar to the definition of the Sarvastivadan found in the Abhidharma Kosa-bhalya (misspelled for sure), where it says: "25c-d. He who affirms the existence of the dharmas of the three time periods [past, present and future] is held to be a Sarvastivadin" Which raised the consciousness of what you joked at me about being one of the two groups. any thoughts on that? toodles, colette #82266 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 3:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro kenhowardau Hi Sarah and Visuddhi classmates, Sorry for being late. Just catching up: ----------- S: > Chapter XIX: DESCRIPTION OF PURIFICATION BY OVERCOMING DOUBT (Ka'nkaavitara.na-visuddhi-niddesa) 1. [598] Knowledge established by overcoming doubt about the three divisions of time by means of <. . .> ----------- KH: > I was a bit surprised no one had asked about the "three divisions of time," which made me wonder if I had missed something by being late. (!) Presumably the three refer to arising, persisting and falling-away. ----- S> <. . .> It also refers to the second stage of tender insight, the knowledge of discerning the conditioned nature of naamas and ruupas, i.e paccaya-pariggaha- ~naa.na ----- KH: > Aha, so PBOD and the second stage of tender insight are one and the same! They belong in the same category of citta (as in the 89 categories of citta). ------- S: > < . . .> . "This doesn't mean that all doubt about dhammas has been eradicated. This only happens at the stage of becoming a sotapanna." ------- KH: > Obvious when I think about it, but a good point to remember. ----------- S: > <. . .> . . . For a good summary of the different kinds of purity (visuddhi), see Ch 31 in 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas', by Ajahn Sujin. ----------- KH: > The A students will be straight onto that! :-) ------ S: > "Here is the summary of the first 4 visuddhis, ------ KH: > Thanks for that summary, Sarah. I can see why you said [later] that you would like to go through PBOD word by word. Larry asked: ----------- > It seems, in the next paragraphs, that doubt about "the three divisions of time" is overcome by reason and discernment. Is there 'right reason' and 'wrong reason'? > ----------- KH: > No offence, Larry, but this reminded me of my university days when there was always someone who had read ahead and who would ask questions that only he and the lecturer could understand - leaving the rest of the class bored to tears. There was one in every class!:-) Nevertheless, the ensuing conversation was a very good one, leading to the conclusion that the popular concept, "kusala doubt," was a misnomer. This must be pertinent to DSG's perennial topic, "Did the Buddha tell us we don't exist?" (That is, 'Did he mix conventional truth with ultimate truth?') No, that sort of talk is for doubters only. :-) Alex said: ----- > The Suttas are the only ultimate guide left. Not some "elder" who may even have seen Buddha face to face (Sati did, Devadatta did, Arittha did, etc). Nothing to say about Brahmins living 1000 years later who came from a Brahmin background and consciously or subconsciously reinterpreted the teachings. Religious Brahmins HATED Buddha, they resisted Buddha from outside and now from the inside as well. > ----- KH: > Well, that's not the Theravadin opinion, so let's press on. But as we go, Alex, it would be good if you could point out wherever (in your opinion) these Visuddhimagga texts contradict the suttas. Tep said: ---- > I am surprised to see my name being included in the same group with Abhidhamma-wise-men like KenH and Sukin. <. . .> When did I pass your qualification test? ;-)) ---- Don't forget Scott was mentioned too. (Are you paying attention Scott?) And Connie has already been named as an Abhidhamma-wise- woman. And several people who are not so keen on Abhidhamma-and- commentaries were also named. This is how we shanghai people into the class. Welcome aboard Tep! :-) Ken H #82267 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 4:06 pm Subject: Re: the present moment philofillet Hi Robert I agree with Dieter, Robert. Your post was excellent. The arrogance towards all teachers other than A.Sujin is regrettable. But you see, we are the lost souls, drifting away from Bangkok, drifting away from The Foundation, we simply can't understand... ...but you manage to maintain an open mind. Very commendable, and as I said before a good example. Metta, Phil #82268 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 4:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment philofillet Hi Sukin At first I was astounded that you assigned such a basic Dhamma point to me, then I remembered that you claimed with some pride that you hardly ever read suttas and it made more sense. > On the other hand, it has been suggested by some, for example Phil, that > the Buddha being the Great Teacher, he also taught those with very weak > accumulations like us, about aspects of Dhamma `catered?Eto our level of > understanding. But in fact this is only Tanha speaking. Sukin, please Google "gradual training Buddha." I assume something good will come up from that search. I don't have time to re-educate you and it would be in vain because you are fully indoctrinated in your way. But just in case miracles happen, here is the passage I posted about 10 days ago: from AN VIII, 21, THe Householder Ugga: "With trusting heart I then waited upon the Blessed One. And the Blessed One gave me a gradual instruction, namely a talk on giving, on virtue, on the heavens, on the danger, vanity and impurity of sensual pleasures and oth the advantages of renunciation. ****WHen the Blessed One saw that my mind was prepared, susceptible, free of hindrances, elevated and lucid, he then revelaed to me that Dhamma instruction particular to the Buddhas, namely, suffering, its origin, its cessation and the path..." Your teacher disregards the gradual training and drives you relentlessly straight to the deepest teachings. In my opinion, this results in trivializing the deep teachings. Fortunately, her approach is hardly spreading, and will dissipate and blow away within a generation or so. When the BB Anguttara Nikaya anthologies come out, I hope someone organizes an emergency air drop over The Foundation. You guys really need to get back to the basics so that understanding of the deep teachings can have properly nurtured soil to grow in. This is a mean-spirited post, but so be it. I made the mistake of reading DSG before bed last night and it really screwed up my sleep. I am really and truly leaving DSG until I have time to deal with this sort of thing. Metta, Phil (currenly operated by Mr. Tanha and the Duke of Dosa.) p.s I'm irritated now, but it will pass. But I do have to leave. If and when my writing career gives me more time of my full-time teaching job, I'll return. Not until then. Be well, all. #82269 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 4:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro lbidd2 Hi Sarah, I can see your point that all questions are akusala because they must arise from ignorance. However, there is the further element of being open to new understanding rather than clinging to skeptical views or bewilderment. I think this must have something to do with investigation of states, which is of course kusala. So that spirit of inquiry could be kusala. Perhaps that is what Ven. Nyanatiloka meant be "reasoned critical doubt". Larry #82270 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 2 lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Regarding the cause and condition of how I was born, my mothers womb was my destiny due to my own kamma in a previous life. Are the "ignorance, craving, and clinging" my parents' kamma? Larry ----------------- 19.4: "...When it is born thus, its causes (root-causes) are the four things, namely, ignorance, craving, clinging, and kamma; [599] since it is they that bring about its birth; and nutriment is its condition, since it is that that consolidates it. So five things constitute its cause and condition. And of these, the three beginning with ignorance are the decisive-support for this body, as the mother is for her infant, and kamma begets it, as the father does the child; and nutriment sustains it, as the wet-nurse does the infant'." #82271 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro dhammanusara Hello KenH, - I haven't officially registered for the class yet. :-) You wrote: > > Tep said: > ---- > > I am surprised to see my name being included in the same group with Abhidhamma-wise-men like KenH and Sukin. <. . .> When did I pass your qualification test? ;-)) > > ---- > > Don't forget Scott was mentioned too. (Are you paying attention > Scott?) And Connie has already been named as an Abhidhamma-wise- > woman. And several people who are not so keen on Abhidhamma-and- > commentaries were also named. This is how we shanghai people into > the class. Welcome aboard Tep! :-) > > Ken H > .............. I must say you have pretty keen observation. As a dhamma-discussion partner, Scott always has my attention. But to me Scott does not appear to be as specialized in the Abhidhamma as much as you and Sukin. As to Connie, she is a wise woman in the Suttas too. Ahh .. I did not know that there were other people who had not passed the qualification test either. Tep === #82272 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:55 pm Subject: Re: Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro dhammanusara Hi Larry and Sarah, - It seems we have a dilemma here (?). > >Sarah (#82237): Nyantiloka is suggesting that kankhaa (doubt) can be kusala or akusala. This is a popular understanding, but I think it's wrong. Firstly, kankhaa is a synonym for vicikicchaa (doubt). Secondly, vicikicchaa (doubt) is always an akusala cetasika. ... >Larry: I can see your point that all questions are akusala because they must arise from ignorance. .......... T: I find your remark that "all questions are akusala because they must arise from ignorance" very troubling. We know it's true that Dhamma discussion is helpful for developing pa~n~aa to reduce ignorance. It's also true that we cannot discuss the Dhamma without asking wise questions. So, how do you explain this dilemma? L: However, there is the further element of being open to new understanding rather than clinging to skeptical views or bewilderment. I think this must have something to do with investigation of states, which is of course kusala. So that spirit of inquiry could be kusala. Perhaps that is what Ven. Nyanatiloka meant be "reasoned critical doubt". T: Can you do the "investigation of states" without asking appropriate questions in order to find a right answer? Sincerely, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > I can see your point that all questions are akusala because they must > arise from ignorance. #82273 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 6:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > I can see your point that all questions are akusala because they must > arise from ignorance. However, there is the further element of being > open to new understanding rather than clinging to skeptical views or > bewilderment. I think this must have something to do with investigation > of states, which is of course kusala. So that spirit of inquiry could be > kusala. Perhaps that is what Ven. Nyanatiloka meant be "reasoned > critical doubt". > Hi Larry (and al), Jumping in if I may: Where did Sarah say that all questions were 'akusala because they must arise from ignorance?' I did a quick revision and I can't see anything of the sort. The suttas are full of kusala questions and answers. They are part of pariyatti, surely! When Ven Nyanatiloka and other writers mistakenly speak of 'kusala critical doubt' they don't mean intelligent questions that flow from right understanding. (These have nothing to do with doubt; they are just a means of obtaining more information.) They mean intelligent questions that flow from wrong understanding. Intelligent or not, these latter questions (doubts) are akusala and, as Sarah said, they are to be overcome, not encouraged. Corrections welcome. Ken H #82274 From: "colette" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 2:46 pm Subject: Trivial Pursuit ksheri3 Hi Larry, I know you didn't ask for my opinion and that the "hair" you are holding is rather thin for me to split it with using the sword I carry with me at all times, but I'll have a go at it. Doubt is one terrible affliction we all suffer from/with. Hind-Sight is 20/20 sure and Hind-Sight CAUSES the DOUBT, don't you think? I mean that we cling to assurances found in Hind-Sight as a way to re- affirm our tangibility, nowness, actuality, or actual "being". why do we need things such as baubles and trickets to affirm our status and advertise our status as an individual? The hind-sight is certainly there to re-assure us, after we have made individual decisions that those were the right decisions, no? What's all this that this ven. person wrote concerning the addiction a person has to affirming their actual "being"? Why does this person only focus or concern himself with the individual called "I"? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > The reason I brought up the question of right and wrong reason is > because Ven. Nyanatiloka seems to say reason can be either kusala or > akusala in his definition of "kankha" as a reasonable question. > > kankhá: 'doubt', may be either an intellectual, critical doubt or an > ethically and psychologically detrimental doubt. <...> #82275 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro lbidd2 Hi Tep and Ken, I think we three are in agreement regarding the wholesomness of a certain kind of inquiry. You might address your concerns to Sarah who seems to say, "not so". Maybe I misread her. How would you characterize the questioning in the most recent paragraph under discussion, skeptical or wholesome inquiry? Larry #82276 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro sarahprocter... HI Ken H, Larry & Tep, --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Larry (and al), > > Jumping in if I may: Where did Sarah say that all questions > were 'akusala because they must arise from ignorance?' I did a quick > revision and I can't see anything of the sort. > > The suttas are full of kusala questions and answers. They are part of > pariyatti, surely! ... S: Thanks Ken H. Yes, Larry, you misunderstood and mis-paraphrased what I said. When there is doubt about the Truths, about namas and rupas, there is ignorance. When there is wise consideration, there is no doubt. Only panna can tell. I'll leave further doubts/wise questions on this to Ken H:-). Tep, welcome aboard! Hope you can help us encourage/pressure others to join in, no matter what stand they may take:). Btw, I have to thank Connie for some help with the extracts behind the scenes. If anyone volunteers/is steam-rolled into doing a chapter/part of a chapter, you may wish to send her a quiet word too. Metta, Sarah p.s Larry, I'm surprised that neither you or anyone else has waved the Kalama Sutta at me yet:). ========= #82277 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Trivial Pursuit lbidd2 Hi Colette, Interesting point about hind sight. Self doubt. Where did I come from? Where am I going? I am of an age where I ask "where am I going" a lot;-) I agree even that question refers to doubt about something I did, or was supposed to have done, in the past. Colette: "What's all this that this ven. person wrote concerning the addiction a person has to affirming their actual "being"? Why does this person only focus or concern himself with the individual called "I"?" Larry: This is a good question because in the insight previous to this one 'the bhikkhu' had a very convincing glimpse that there is no "I". I think it is not so much confirming an "I", as it is being stuck with an "I", and using what we know about dependent arising to pick that assumption apart. Even though there has been a glimpse of no self, that isn't enough. There has to be an understanding of process in order to escape from a nihilistic view. Larry #82278 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment sarahprocter... HI Robert A (& All), --- Robert wrote: > So often in the "there are only dhammas" > discussions it has seemed to me that what is lost is the fact that there > are > people, people who deserve generousity, kindness, and respect. .... S: I agree with you that the 'spirit' of generosity, kindness and respect are important. Indeed, I think that any appreciation that 'there are only dhammas' should lead to less selfishness and more of such qualities. I'm glad you always stress them and appreciate your good example too. However, I also think that we are all beginners on the path and therefore we may all lack (or appear to lack) such qualities at times. This is regardless of whether we listen to A.Sujin or any other teacher or friends. Simply, none of us are perfect and tolerance and understanding of all our short-comings is to be encouraged, I feel. In fact, I think that when we do understand more that 'there are only dhammas', we are no longer surprised when people (of any persuasion) slip up. It's a chance for metta at such times too, rather than judging or quickly jumping to conclusions. (I'm not suggesting there was any lack of metta on your part - I think you gently try to assist us all with your comments. I'm just reflecting out loud). Also, I may add, that while I'm not trying to defend any comments made by anyone, I do know that often humourous asides can be misinterpreted on-line and sometimes we really do misunderstand each other's intentions. This happens quite often here and I know you'll be the first to appreciate this. As for anything on DSG being 'over your head', please don't think like that! If it seems that way, it's because it hasn't been explained clearly or the relevance to daily life hasn't been pointed out. Looking at the subject heading, would you agree that the Dhamma really does come back to the present moment and the dhammas arising right now? Do you have any comments on the Vism. extracts and discussions taking place, Robert? Thanks again for your helpful input to consider for us all.... Metta, Sarah ======= #82279 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 8:39 pm Subject: Re: Good Abidings nichiconn Hiya, colette! The old Sarvastivadan cloak joke - my memory of who threw it where is rather vague, too but I'm not too concerned with designer labels. Just to pull a couple out of my hat, I couldn't tell you the difference between a Mystic and Kosa-bhalyan. We all cover up with our own weave. Mine's not a Bliss and Harmonious Unity blend but it's still so tight I can't see where the Rupa threads end and the Namas begin. I do like the idea that we each live in the world that corresponds to the warp of our own thought. Gotta run, connie #82280 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 9:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro dhammanusara Dear Larry (KenH, Sarah) - Your request below is reasonable. :-) > Hi Tep and Ken, > > I think we three are in agreement regarding the wholesomness of a > certain kind of inquiry. You might address your concerns to Sarah who > seems to say, "not so". Maybe I misread her. > > How would you characterize the questioning in the most recent paragraph under discussion, skeptical or wholesome inquiry? > > Larry > ..................... T: I guess you are referring to the message # 82228. > > >Larry (#82228): Hi Sarah, It seems, in the next paragraphs, that doubt about "the three divisions of time" is overcome by reason and discernment. Is there 'right reason' and 'wrong reason'? > >Larry (#82235) : Only the detrimental doubt (identical with vicikicchá, q.v.) is to be rejected as karmically unwholesome, as it paralyses thinking and hinders the inner development of man. Reasoned, critical doubt in dubious matters is thereby not discouraged. > >The 16 doubts enumerated in the Suttas (e.g. M. 2) are the following: "Have I been in the past? Or, have I not been in the past? What have I been in the past? How have I been in the past? From what state into what state did I change in the past? ... ... > >Larry: So my question was a reasonable question, not a skeptical doubt ;-)) ..................... T: I would characterize your question as "reasonable" and "neither wholesome nor unwholesome", Larry. Sincerely, Tep === #82281 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 9:03 pm Subject: Happy Chinese New Year! buddhatrue Hi All, Happy Chinese New Year! May the Year of the Rat be filled with peace and blessings for you all! Metta, James #82282 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 9:44 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (84) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) The first words of the “Exhortation to the Paatimokkha” are, “Patience is the highest ascetism”. If patience and endurance are lacking, the perfections cannot lead to the realization of the four noble Truths. We should think of the patience of people at the time when the Buddha had not yet finally passed away. When we read the Suttas and reflect on them in detail we can see the patience and endurance of people at that time who applied the Dhamma in their conduct and practice. We read in the “Discourse on the Analysis of the Elements” (Middle Length Sayings III, no 140): “Thus have I heard: At one time the Lord, walking on tour among the people of Magadha, arrived at Raajagaha and approached the potter Bhaggava; having approached, he spoke thus to Bhaggava the potter: ‘If it is not inconvenient to you, Bhaggava, I would spend one night in your dwelling.’ ‘It is not inconvenient [1], revered sir, but there is here one gone forth who came before you to stay. But if he allow it, do stay, revered sir, according to your pleasure.’ ” We see the patience of the Buddha who wandered for the benefit of others in teaching the Dhamma, so that he could help those who were able to realize the four noble Truths. He walked on tour in Magadha, he stopped in the city of Raajagaha and came to see the potter. He did not go to a place that was pleasant and confortable. He asked for a sleeping place in the potter’s workshop just for one night. We read in the Commentary to this sutta, the “Papa~ncasuudanii” that the potter Bhaggava thought: “Monks usually have different inclinations: some like to keep company, and others like to be alone. If the monk who came here first is someone who wants to be alone, he will say, ‘Revered sir, do not enter here, because I am already in this dwelling’, so that the person who comes afterwards will go away. If this would happen, both people would quarrel. Thus, what has been given should be considered as such, and what has been done cannot be altered.” The Commentary states: “Therefore, he said, ‘It is not inconvenient, revered sir, but there is here one gone forth who came before you to stay. But if he allows it, do stay, revered sir, according to your pleasure.’ ” ---------- Note [1] The P.T.S. English translation has “It is not convenient to me, revered sir. For there is here …” Nina followed the Pali text here. ---------- To be continued. Han #82283 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 9:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Happy Chinese New Year! hantun1 Dear James, Thank you very much. We also wish you a very Happy Chinese New Year, and the best of health and happiness and prosperity. Han #82284 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment TGrand458@... Hi Alex This last part that you seemed to have found the most reasonable was written by me which of course is why it was the most reasonable. ;-) In your post it comes off looking like Sukin wrote it. We can't have that. One comment ... I thought I was the champion of conceptual thinking in this group, but compared the labyrinth of conceptual theory demonstrated by others, I seem to be a conceptual wimp. ;-) TG #82285 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment sukinderpal Hi Robert (*and Dieter), ===================== > The most well known teachers of today (with the exception > of A. Sujin ;-)), none of them come across to me as being very > `bright'. Certainly we members of DSG, who have heard and considered > so much, (and there is no better Buddhist group on the net), are no > where close to having experienced any of the vipassana nanas, let > alone magga. > This I think says a lot about the difference in accumulations. Robert: I agree that DSG is a group where it is possible to read good and substantive discussions on the Dhamma and for that reason is an important resource on the net. That is why it is such a disappointment that those discussions are so often marred by the arrogance and disrespect for other teachers and practitioners that is the habit of some, although certainly not all, of Ajahn Sujin's students. Sukin: I think this should have been addressed to me alone. When it comes to views, then perhaps yes, to some extent what I say could be representative of A. Sujin and her other students, but not more than that, surely? My lack of moral restraint is mine and you have noted that only I tend to say things as I do and that the others are more reserved. Regarding arrogance, I’ll admit to having noted it arise from time to time and therefore presumably it arises much more often. However when I do catch myself with it, never do I find reason to encourage it, in fact it is seen as being quite undesirable. Surely during the time that I write these posts of mine, in between there are so many other realities involved that I don’t think much of the arrogance remains? Perhaps you mistake something else eg. dosa, for arrogance? In any case there is nothing ever to be proud of, not so much because I admit to being a dimwit myself, but because the reference to ‘self’ is itself so silly. Regarding respect for other teachers, you are right to think that I have none. But should you expect otherwise given that I perceive them as being wrong about the Dhamma? I may refrain from saying anything or else try to put forward my views without reference to any teacher (btw, I didn’t mention names nor did I have any particular teacher in mind), out of respect for people such as you, but then again you should perhaps not react so much. I keep wondering though, why is it that you are so bothered whenever I say such things (and this even includes outsiders like J. Krishnamurti), yet never say anything when it comes to other people’s attacks on A. Sujin and this too right here where there are so many who respect her, and not just by reputation, but also from personal contact for many years? Actually, I don’t mind so much now when this happens; since it is better that these people express themselves here than they keep it to themselves or do it elsewhere. But then again I may be missing your point and need to hear more explanation? ================== Robert: Everytime I see this I have to ask myself again why I come to DSG - is it worth it? I am posting now not because I want to be critical but because this issue gets to the heart of why I have never been able to understand the teachings of Ajahn Sujin. Sukin: In real life I am worse than I appear here on the net. But I’m sure that the Dhamma has helped me these past few years because I would definitely have been much worse! My wife will attest to that. ;-) On the other hand I think that you are perhaps having too much of an idealistic view with regards to student of Dhamma? Quite often when I come to note good behavior by other people, I am led to feel, “how better they are than I am”. I perceive in fact many to be rather morally upright. However when it comes to “view”, here the situation becomes different and I am uncompromising. The apparent good says nothing about the accumulated kilesas that lie dormant, and therefore if they continued to hold their particular wrong view, what is there to cheer about? So I tend to separate view from outward expressions of goodness. In fact when I make my criticisms of those teachers, my aim is never the ‘person’, I can’t be bothered with this, but rather it is always about “view”. As far as I’m concerned, your reason for coming to DSG should be therefore not to judge others according to morality, let alone outer behavior, but what is said with regard to the Dhamma. Besides one behavior under one particular circumstance should not be taken to represent the person’s general behavior. ================== Robert: So often in the "there are only dhammas" discussions it has seemed to me that what is lost is the fact that there are people, people who deserve generousity, kindness, and respect. This is why so many times I have come away from browsing at DSG feeling that Ajahn Sujin's teachings show great mastery of the letter of the Buddhist teachings, but what of the spirit? Sukin: Again you seem to be rather idealistic and projecting. I won’t justify the “there are only dhammas” at this point. Only the fact that perception of people and situations continuing to arise as much as ever, and that this then comes to be a matter of the ‘thinking’ being either kusala or akusala, the former has always been encouraged and the latter never so. What apparently is missing when compared to your own perspective, is the “idealism”. Again I wonder if you have taken any notice of the akusala expressed by those other people who keep talking about needing to have good sila, yet fail to keep them when arguing here? =============== Robert: I could be wrong and maybe it is just that I really don't understand these teachings - that here at DSG I am over my head. Please consider what I say not as criticism but as just something I offer to be looked at and if you think I am off the mark, then forgotten. Sukin: You may be right or you may be wrong, but this does not matter. But in case this is what is behind all this and I hope that I am mistaken in my impression. Robert, it seems as though it is because you fail to find fault with the “teachings” itself by way of reasoning etc, you keep coming back to instead attack it by way of what you think should be the outcome, namely moral behavior. *I hope I am wrong, but it seems Dieter that you too are perhaps becoming desperate in this regard? Else why would you cheer Robert’s post? What particular Dhamma lesson did you gain from it? Metta, Sukin #82286 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:45 pm Subject: Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 3 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Purification by Overcoming Doubt Chapter XIX 1 I. Introductory 2 II. Ways of discerning cause and condition 3..........1. Mentality-materiality is neither causeless nor created by a Maker ...............2. Its occurrence is always due to conditions ***** S: After looking at the paragraph about the causes for the material body (ruupas) to arise, this next section highlights the understanding of namas and rupas as due to conditions and overcoming doubts 'about the three divisions of time' referred to in the introduction and which we can now consider further. ..... [Its Occurrence is Always due to a Condition] 5. After discerning the material body's condition in this way, he again discerns the mental body in the way beginning: 'Due to eye and to visible object eye consciousness arises' (S.ii,72; M.i,111). When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality is due to conditions, then he sees that, as now, so in the past too its occurrence was due to conditions, and in the future too its occurrence will be due to conditions. 6. When he sees it in this way, all his uncertainty is abandoned, that is to say, the five kinds of uncertainty about the past stated thus 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' (M.i,8), and also the five kinds of uncertainty about the future stated thus 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' (M.i,8), and also the six kinds of uncertainty about the present stated thus 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Whence will this being have come? Wither will it be bound?' (M.i,8). ****** S: When namas and rupas are clearly understood for what they are and as conditioned phenomena which must arise when the right conditions are in place, doubts about how such dhammas arose in the past or future are also overcome. There is no idea about what happened or what will happen to any Self or what any Self (or Higher Self!) is. This understanding about the conditioned nature of dhammas does not come about through a conceptual knowledge, but through a direct knowledge of the dhammas appearing. I don't think this is quite clear in the otherwise helpful Guide notes I'll be giving below from CMA. From CMA (B.Bodhi's edited translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Ch IX, Compendium of Meditation Subjects): #31 Purification by Overcoming Doubt [Tesam eva ca naamaruupana.m paccayapariggaho kankhaavitara.navisuddhi naama] "Purification by overcoming doubt is the discernment of the conditions of that same mind and matter." Editor's/Translator's note, Guide to #31 "Purification by overcoming doubt is so called because it develops the knowledge which removes doubts about the conditions for mind-and-matter during the three periods of time - past, present, and future. It is achieved by applying, during the contemplative process, one's knowledge of dependent arising in order to understand that the present compound of mind-and-matter has not arisen by chance or through a hypothetical cause such as a creator god or primordial soul, but has come into being from previous ignorance, craving, clinging and kamma. One then applies this same principle to the past and future as well. This stage is also called the knowledge of discerning conditions (paccaya pariggaha~naa.na). .... S: As I mentioned, I think it should be stressed that the knowledge is a direct understanding, not a theoretical application of what has been heard, as this might suggest. Of course it is pa~n~naa (right understanding) at the level of vipassanaa which does any 'application', not any self. From the commentary itself to the single line above from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, it says (PTS, Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and commentary): ".......In this way there is comprehension by direct observation of the causal conditions, consisting of kamma, etc., for the occurrence of mind and materiality in the three time periods [of present, past, and future], both in general and specifically. "And this, which is the determining of the truth of arising, is called 'purification by crossing over doubt' out of consideration for the fact that it is a 'crossing over doubt' because it crosses over, passes beyond, doubt, which is of sixteen kinds - 'Did I exist in the past', etc.* - and eight kinds - 'He has doubt about the teacher', etc.** - and a purification because of cleaning away the stain consisting of the view that there are no causes or that sees other inappropriate causes." *M 18; S II 26 ** Dhs 183; Vibh 364 ..... S: Note the stress on 'comprehension by direct observation of the causal conditions'. There is nothing conceptual/theoretical about such a degree of right understanding/vipassanaa. Metta, Sarah ======== #82287 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (79) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Connie & all, I love these ones too: --- han tun wrote: > As we read: “Patience is an ocean on account of its > depth.” .... > Patience is “a shore bounding the great ocean of > hatred; a panel closing off the door to the plane of > misery.” .... >".... And: ‘If there were no > wrong-doers, how could I accomplish the perfection of > patience?’ " .... Metta, Sarah ======= #82288 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.7 sarahprocter... Hi Larry & all, I meant to say that this (#81765)was an excellent section packed full of gems with a good summing up at the end: --- LBIDD@... wrote: > The next section is concerned with anatta. > > 24. ...So, as one who opens a box with a knife, as one who splits a twin > palmyra bulb in two, he defines all states of the three planes, the 18 > elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates, in the double way as > 'mentality-materiality', and he concludes that over and above mere > mentality-materiality there is nothing else that is a being or a person > or a deity or a Brahma. <.....> > Larry: To sum up this section: what is designated by a concept, for > example 'person', 'chariot' etc., is ultimately only nama and rupa in a > process of becoming. To think there is an ultimate person is due to > clinging to becoming or annihilation. Perception of only nama and rupa > is the remedy for that clinging. ... S: Without this firm understanding of namas and rupas, there cannot be any more developed levels of insight. Thanks for setting such a good (and high!!) standard in your presentations. Metta, Sarah ======= #82289 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment avalo1968 Sukin, I apologize if you were offended or felt singled out by my comments. It was not my intention to attack you. My post was offered simply as something to consider and if you think there is no merit in what I say, feel free to ignore it. There is one thing you said I found surprising: Sukin: Quite often when I come to note good behavior by other people, I am led to feel, "how better they are than I am". I perceive in fact many to be rather morally upright. However when it comes to "view", here the situation becomes different and I am uncompromising. The apparent good says nothing about the accumulated kilesas that lie dormant, and therefore if they continued to hold their particular wrong view, what is there to cheer about? So I tend to separate view from outward expressions of goodness. In fact when I make my criticisms of those teachers, my aim is never the `person', I can't be bothered with this, but rather it is always about "view". As far as I'm concerned, your reason for coming to DSG should be therefore not to judge others according to morality, let alone outer behavior, but what is said with regard to the Dhamma. Besides one behavior under one particular circumstance should not be taken to represent the person's general behavior. Robert A: I don't know, but personally, if I had to chose a measure of someone's understanding, I would take the tenor of their day to day actions and words over their erudite point/counterpoint on Dhamma any day. But as Sarah wisely pointed out, it is not my place to judge others by any measure, and if I have fallen into that with these posting, I am sorry for that. Robert A. #82290 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (79) hantun1 Dear Sarah (Connie and All), Very well chosen, Sarah. “Patience is an ocean on account of its depth.” “Patience is a shore bounding the great ocean of hatred; a panel closing off the door to the plane of misery.” “And, if there were no wrong-doers, how could I accomplish the perfection of patience?" -------------------- Han: I would say that there are no wrong-doers at DSG, but I think you have a very good opportunity to accomplish the perfection of patience here:>)) To the above quotes you have chosen, I would like to add one more: “Patience is a staircase ascending to the worlds of the gods and Brahmas.” Han: I have heard Burmese Sayadaws saying daana and siila are also staircases ascending to the worlds of the gods and Brahmas. Have you read it somewhere? Respectfully, Han #82291 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Scott, Alex & all), --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: In my humble opinion contemplation as used in the suttas is much > more than just 'thinking about'; it is anupassana of the dhammas. For > example, in the Satipatthana Sutta [MN 10; also, DN 22] the Pali for > contemplation of the body in the body is 'kayanupassana'. .... S: I agree with your comments. Anupassana refers to direct 'seeing'. Thank you for sharing the extract with Pali. Thanks also to Han for his assistance. Also, your extracts from the Ptsm, such as on 'Understanding' (#81814) are very helpful. I also liked your considerations and conclusion on stream entry (to Scott & Alex) in #82205: "So the bhikkhu discerns the FNT appropriately and the faculty of discernment conditions the right seeing which supports stream-entry as explained in MN 2." Of course, the discernment is pa~n~na (right understanding or right view) which grows until it is an indriya and an elightenment factor. All these indriyas are stronger in a sotapanna than in a wordling, of course. Thanks again for all the hard work and useful quotes in your posts and to Scott and Alex too for the same. Metta, Sarah ========== > > 'Idha bhikkhave, bhikkhu, kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati aataapii > sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassam...' > > "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, > ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having > overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; ... [Translated from > the Pali by Soma Thera] > > T: The Pali 'anupassana' was also translated as 'contemplation' in > the Patism (translation by ~Nanamoli Bhikkhu) in section 244 on the > seven anupassanas. > > 244. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that > body? He contemplates it as impermanent (aniccato anupassati), not as > permanent (no niccato); as painful (dukkhato anupassati), not as > pleasant (no sukhato); as not self (anattato anupassati), not as > self (no attato); he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not > delight (no nandati); he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does > not inflame it (no rajjati); he causes cessation (nirodheti), not > arising (no samudeti); he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not > grasp (no aadiyati). [Patisambhidamagga, III Breathing Treatise] > > T: The Pali inserts above were kindly given by our good friend Han > Tun. > > I hope you may find my comment useful. > > Tep > === > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" > wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah and all, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > > wrote: > > > > > .... > > > S: I think that 'contemplation' (sampajaano) as used here and in > > other suttas refers not to a 'thinking about' or mere contemplation > > as we're used to use the term. > > >>> #82292 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 12:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: developed body .. nilovg Dear Tep and Howard, Op 5-feb-2008, om 16:53 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > T: What do you think "body is developed" means? > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I'm not Sarah ;-), but I'll hazard a guess: It might > mean "being adept at guarding the body door." > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > T: That is a good guess, Howard. Similar to that I used to think of > kayagatasati and indriya-samvara (sense restraint) as way to develop > the body (so it remains calm, not aroused by raga or agitated by > extreme weathers, insect bites, etc.). > > But the translator's note says this : > > "According to MN 36 a person developed in body is one whose mind is > not invaded by feelings of pleasure, and a person developed in mind > is one whose mind is not invaded by feelings of pain". --------- N: In many texts the body can mean the mental body: cetasikas, including feeling. From the context here it seems to me that it is the mental body, but I stand to be corrected. Nina. #82293 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... sarahprocter... Hi Dieter, (Howard & Tep), The following caught my attention: --- Dieter Möller wrote: > Hi Howard, Tep and .. > > you wrote : > > I do not, though I think of vi~n~nana as nama. At > _http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha205.htm_ , Kalupahana writes the > following: > "In the Suttas, nama is used to refer to all aspects of mind except > consciousness itself. In later texts, it usually also includes > consciousness. " ... S: In the context of D.O., when we read: avijja paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnana, vinnana paccaya nama-rupa....etc, vinnana just refers to (vipaka) cittas (consciousness) and nama to (vipaka) cetasikas (mental factors only). However, in other contexts, such as when referring to the khandhas, nama refers to all the mental khandhas, to cittas and cetasikas. For example, when we read lines like these in the suttas: "He cut off craving here for name-and-form (nama-rupa)" (SN 1:105), nama refers again to cittas and cetasikas (consciousness and mental factors). Otherwise it wouldn't make sense. It's just the same as in the 'later texts'. ... > D: if only found in later texts , (Abh.?) , why do you think so? .. S: I think it is in the context of D.O. as I said, in suttas, Abhidhamma and commentaries that nama doesn't refer to vinnana. Metta, Sarah p.s Apologies if this was 'settled' and I missed it. ======= #82294 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 12:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (79) sarahprocter... Dear Han (Connie, Nina & all), --- han tun wrote: > “And, if there were no wrong-doers, how could I > accomplish the perfection of patience?" > > -------------------- > > Han: I would say that there are no wrong-doers at DSG, > but I think you have a very good opportunity to > accomplish the perfection of patience here:>)) ... S: :>)) That's very diplomatic. Of course we're all wrong-doers at times and test out each other's patience. ... > To the above quotes you have chosen, I would like to > add one more: > “Patience is a staircase ascending to the worlds of > the gods and Brahmas.” .... S: Yes, also very wise. ... > > Han: I have heard Burmese Sayadaws saying daana and > siila are also staircases ascending to the worlds of > the gods and Brahmas. Have you read it somewhere? ... S: I don't recall reading it, but I forget a lot of what I read. Connie or Nina might have seen (and recalled!) it. Metta, Sarah ======= #82295 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro nilovg Dear Ken H, I am so glad you are actively involved. Op 6-feb-2008, om 0:05 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > 1. [598] Knowledge established by overcoming doubt about the three > divisions of time by means of <. . .> > ----------- > > KH: > I was a bit surprised no one had asked about the "three > divisions of time," which made me wonder if I had missed something by > being late. (!) Presumably the three refer to arising, persisting and > falling-away. ------- N: Explained in Ch XIX, 6: it is about past, future and present. One may doubt whethere there were past lives or not at all. Then it can be overcome by understanding conditions. As was explained in Vis. Ch XVII: no one travels from past life to present life, there are mere dhammas arising because of conditions. The beginning of XIX, 5, reminds us : due to eye and visible object eye-consciousness arises. An excellent reminder of the present moment, since seeing arises now. You refer to one moment of citta: arising, persisting and falling- away. True, the arising is due to conditions of the past. There is presence and falling away. What has fallen away becomes past. Nina. #82296 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? TGrand458@... Hi All MN 10 -- "In this way he abides contemplating body as a body internally, or he abides contemplating body as a body externally,..." (BB's note: -- MA: "Internally": contemplating the breathing in his own body. "Externally": contemplating the breathing in occurring in the body of another.) How does one abide contemplating body as a body "externally" through direct experience of such breathing? Rather, does this not involve conceptualization, projection, imagination, inference, etc.? TG #82297 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 12:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? nilovg Dear TG, Op 6-feb-2008, om 9:41 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > "In this way he abides contemplating body as a body internally, or > he abides > contemplating body as a body externally,..." > > (BB's note: -- MA: "Internally": contemplating the breathing in his > own > body. "Externally": contemplating the breathing in occurring in the > body of > another.) > > How does one abide contemplating body as a body "externally" > through direct > experience of such breathing? Rather, does this not involve > conceptualization, projection, imagination, inference, etc.? -------- N: Perhaps inference is more like it. A similar situation: contemplating the feelings and cittas externally; of someone else. Or the body of someone else. As I understood it: it is a reminder to be aware of one's 'own' bodily phenomena. citta, feeling. One cannot be directly aware of someone else's nama and rupa. Kh Sujin said: don't you know it when someone else touches you? There is tangible object appearing and it can be object of mindfulness. Coming back to seeing bones or corpses: it reminds us to be aware of 'our bones' as only rupas. Nina. #82298 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 12:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 sarahprocter... Hi Larry, A little revision here for us on subtle rupas: --- LBIDD@... wrote: >... I'm not exactly > sure what the 16 subtle rupas are, but I suspect most of them are > "non-concrete" matter such as space, intimation, etc. which are not > regarded as ultimate dhammas. .... S: Of the rupas, "The twelve kinds, comprising the five sensitive organs and [seven] sense objects are gross, proximate, and impinging material phenomena; the rest are subtle, distant, and non-impinging." (CMA, Ch VI, Compendium of Matter). The 16 subtle rupas are therefore: -water element -femininity -masculinity -heart-base -life-faculty -nutriment -space element - bodily intimation -vocal intimation -lightness -malleability -wieldiness - 4 characteristics of rupas, i.e production, continuity, decay, impermanence TOTAL 16 Of these 16, the concretely produced are: -water element -femininity -masculinity -heart-base -life-faculty -nutriment TOTAL 6 (+ the 12 gross rupas)= 18 The other 10 subtle rupas are non-concrete matter. As you say, it is the concrete matter that have their own characteristics and sabhava. The non-concrete matter depend on the concrete matter and are characteristics or attributes of these. Metta, Sarah ======= #82299 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 12:13 am Subject: Fake Metta (Re: the present moment) buddhatrue Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > I am posting now not because I want to be critical but because this issue > gets to the heart of why I have never been able to understand the > teachings of Ajahn Sujin. So often in the "there are only dhammas" > discussions it has seemed to me that what is lost is the fact that there are > people, people who deserve generousity, kindness, and respect. This is > why so many times I have come away from browsing at DSG feeling that > Ajahn Sujin's teachings show great mastery of the letter of the Buddhist > teachings, but what of the spirit? You have really hit the nail on the head!! If you deny the existence of the person, then you cannot truly develop metta, compassion, and sympathetic joy. In that case, the only things you can develop are: fake metta, fake compassion, and fake sympathetic joy. As Piero Ferrucci writes in 'The Power of Kindness', "It should be clear by now that I am speaking of true kindness. Heaven save us from the fakes- self-interested politeness, calculated generosity, superficial etiquette..." (pg. 5) What we usually see in the followers of KS is fake kindness masquerading as real kindness. It is cold and unfriendly, but polite. Some dispense with this fake kindness at times (it can be tiring to maintain after all) and let their true feelings show: arrogance and disdain for everyone and everything. Anyone coming to this group looking for warmth and acceptance is in for a rude shock! You can only develop kindness toward people and beings, not impersonal dhammas. The Buddha teaches this in sutta after sutta. You can only develop the Brahma-viharas with the heart, not with the intellect. And such development is essential to enlightenment. Robert, I understand why you question your participation in DSG. I also question mine. My "in-your-face" approach, though honest, has never seemed to work- and just causes unnecessary drama. I am starting to think that it is best for me just to radiate metta from a distance. Good luck with your practice! Metta, James #82300 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 1:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 2 nilovg Hi Larry, may I butt in? Op 6-feb-2008, om 2:07 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Hi Sarah, > > Regarding the cause and condition of how I was born, my mothers > womb was > my destiny due to my own kamma in a previous life. Are the "ignorance, > craving, and clinging" my parents' kamma? ------- N: No, it was "ignorance, craving, and clinging" of the past in 'your' stream of cittas. See Vis. Ch XVII, were it is explained how these are decisive support-conditions. Nothing to do with your parent's kamma. We are heirs to our own kamma as the Buddha said. Nina. #82301 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana, to Han. nilovg Dear Han (and Tep), Op 3-feb-2008, om 0:12 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: I don’t know whether you are referring to > sabbacitta-sadharana cetasikas (phassa, vedenaa, > sa~n~naa, cetanaa, ekaggataa, jivitindriya, and > manasikaara) which arise together with every citta. > Sa~n~naa is one of the cetasikas which I least > understand. So I will be grateful to have Nina’s > opinion. -------- N: Yes, there is sa~n`naa with every citta. When we try to retrieve a name we do not remember, there are many moments of thinking accompanied by sa~n~naa. These mark and remember different concepts we are thinking of. Sa~n~naa is beyond control, it does not always remember the things 'we' would like to remember. Thus, at the moments we forget something, there is still sa~n~naa. We cannot direct it or force it to remember certain things. Yes please, Han, I think your former posts on the Patthaana are useful and we can discuss them. Perhaps people do not realize that the Patthaana has to be related to our life now. It is much more than intellectualization. Nina. #82302 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 2:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment moellerdieter Hi Sukin, you wrote: 'I hope I am wrong, but it seems Dieter that you too are perhaps becoming desperate in this regard? Else why would you cheer Robert’s post? What particular Dhamma lesson did you gain from it?' D: don't worry, Sukin..no problem with becoming ' desperate ', except for the opportunity to a find a posting from you I can cheer too...but as long as your knowledge and understanding of the Sutta Pitaka remains as it is , I doubt it will ever happen . with Metta Dieter #82303 From: han tun Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana, to Han. hantun1 Dear Nina (and Tep), Thank you very much for your kind explanation on Sa~n~naa. It is very clear now. As regards Patthaana series I will start shortly. The value of my presentations will depend on the valuable inputs from the Group members, rather than my writings, as my writings will be very elementary. I only hope that I do not disappoint you and others for not coming up to the standard you might expect. Respectfully, Han #82304 From: han tun Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 3:12 am Subject: Patthaana (1) . hantun1 Dear All, INTRODUCTION When Htoo left, putting the JourneyToNibbana web-site under my care, I did not know how to manage a web-site. Therefore, it suddenly became quiet and there was the danger of it becoming a dead web-site. Then, my good friend Tep asked me to write something in line with the objectives of JTN. So I selected to write a serial on Patthaana. I chose Patthaana, because it is so very deep and profound that the six colourful spectrum of extremely brilliant rays, much brighter than the light of heavenly angels, emanated and emitted from Buddha’s body, only when he was contemplating the Patthaana, for the first time after his enlightenment. The second reason for choosing it was because it is one of the subjects that I know least. By choosing a difficult subject I hope to gain knowledge on the subject, with the inputs from the Group members who know better than me. By that way, I hope to learn more as I write. It may be like an on-the-job-training. Then I selected a book titled “Patthaana” published by Triple Gem Publications, as a resource book. This book and a book in Burmese by Ashin Janakaabhivamsa formed the main resource materials. I also refer to Htoo’s previous posts on this subject and The Conditionality of Life in the Buddhist Teachings: An outline of the Twentyfour Conditions as taught in the Abhidhamma by Nina, whenever I found myself in difficulty. Then I posted the serial at JTN and Triplegem. When I was half-way through, my computer broke down and I stopped writing. Now, Nina asked me to present them at DSG. I will do it now. But as I am writing as a learner, and not as an expert, there may be mistakes and I will be grateful if other members will correct me. I will seek inputs from the members, and I will take questions, but I may not have all the answers. For those questions that I cannot answer, I will say so, and I hope other members, who know better than me, may help me out. Having said that, I will start with the Foreword of the book, Patthaana, written by Ashin Thitzana. When Nina asked me where Ashin Thitzana is right now, I have completely forgotten that I had used his Forward, and I replied to Nina that I did not know Ashin Thitzana. That was an unforgivable offense and I am so sorry for that. As far as I know now, Ashin Thitzana is from Dhammasukha Vihara, but I do not know whether he is there right now or not. FOREWORD (by Ashin Thitzana) Our Lord Buddha, after achieving perfect enlightenment, has carried out His compassionate mission for forty five straight years preaching invaluable sermons to countless human and divine beings, leading all beings to the path of absolute freedom and happiness, and saving numerous beings from untold sufferings of Samsara. His noble teachings and every discourse he gave are endowed with triple blessings and goodness: at the beginning, in the middle and at the conclusion. This means that every word he said and every discourse he preached can lead an attentive listener and a real practitioner to desired results of spiritual awakening, enlightenment, peace, happiness and freedom. Of all his teachings, the Patthaana is very significant because it is an advanced teaching in the Buddhist psychology with tremendously profound meaning. It explains about inherent correlationship and interdependent nature of everything in the physical universe and spiritual phenomena. In fact, the Patthaana is a very amazing discovery made by Lord Buddha about twenty-six centuries ago. To be continued. Metta, Han #82305 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 3:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: again the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? nilovg Dear TG, Here I am again. Op 6-feb-2008, om 9:41 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > "In this way he abides contemplating body as a body internally, or > he abides > contemplating body as a body externally,..." > --------- N: As to contemplating citta and feelings externally. I thought of another example. We see someone cry and then we also have tears, since we notice another person's sadness. Kh Sujin said: then the thinking of someone else's sorrow reminds us to be aware of thinking. This is something I am forgetful of. I learn not to skip any opportunity for mindfulness. I find it helpful to remember this. Nina. #82306 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 4:46 am Subject: Re: the present moment sukinderpal Hi TG, ============ > Anyway, we know where we are, unless we are so completely deluded to think along the lines "that we could become Stream Enterers in this present life if only we practiced hard enough". ............................................ TG: You are way to pessimistic. With this attitude, you surely won't have any chance of being enlightened. Sukin: :-) Surely it is not a matter of pessimism or optimism is it? Isn't such an outlook in fact conditioned by `self view'? ============ TG: Common now...you mindfulness junkies (a good thing)... didn't the Buddha say you could become enlightened overnight if you just practice hard enough and diligently enough. Sukin: Not you, me or any Tom, Dick and Harry. The Buddha was speaking to those with developed faculties, bases of success, powers etc. Why would the development of wisdom and Parami be said to require "long time development" if in the end following a conventional instruction could do the trick? But I'm disappointed, didn't think that you were one of those "in this lifetime" people. :-/ ============ TG: Why do you so flatly deny the Buddha's teaching? Because we're past the 500 limit? Remember, that limit was meant to signify the teachings had disappeared, and they haven't. Sukin: No I am not denying the Buddha's teaching, and like I said, I don't need to take into account the predictions. My reason is plain, I have no direct understanding of such common dhammas as seeing, hearing, hardness, feeling, thinking and so on. This means also that in the meantime, ignorance is being accumulated more and more beyond control. I'm only beginning to learn at this point, to not take any of these realities for `self' by way of pariyatti understanding. So no, it does not look like anything substantial is going to happen within this particular stream of cittas anytime soon. :-) ============ TG: I find this attitude pretty sad. If this is what your esteemed teacher is teaching, what a downer. Sukin: And I find it sad that you find this sad. :-( Nothing is more liberating than the "truth" including the fact of one's infinite ignorance. This is freedom at whatever level, from the tyranny of "self" which continuously reacts by way of tanha, mana and worse of all ditthi, ending up always in a bind. The last of these comes across as being the `solution' but in fact pushes the wheel of samsara the hardest. When one perceives in the moment a reality, there is no idea about past and future. When ignorance is inferred to as arising repeatedly, one can't help but conclude it to be ever so present and deeply rooted from don't know when. Should one then expect all of this to go away quickly by some prescribed practice and in one lifetime? But it seems on the other hand, that those who don't take note of this, but instead deludedly think that one is getting somewhere with the prescribed practice or whatever, theirs is mere wishful thinking. Metta, Sukin #82307 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 4:48 am Subject: Re: the present moment sukinderpal Hi Alex, I just saw that Phil has also responded and I'm quite behind in my reading. So I'll have to skip commenting on some parts. ============== > According to the Suttas and Vinaya, there were indeed very many people who got enlightened after hearing the Buddha. Very few of them I presume had to hear as much as half of what we have before getting enlightened. >>> Alex: Maybe because they've used very WELL those few instructions that they have recieved? Maybe they didn't have the insatiable greed for more and more mind objects (intellectual accumulations to grab on and hold). They went into solitude and practiced meditation really really seriously and energetically, rather than finding excuses about why they can't. Sukin: Please note: No one here believes in accumulating "knowledge" for the sake of it. Having made the distinction between this and intellectual "understanding", what is then being encouraged is to turn the mind to the present moment experience in order to study it. This by conditions, including accumulations, can be Pariyatti, Patipatti or Pativedha, none of which however is within power of will to make rise. And all three will agree to this very fact of dhammas being conditioned and beyond control, hence never would any idea emerge from them about any "doings". The story above is only your own projection. =============== >>>> The most well known teachers of today (with the exception > of A. Sujin ;-)), none of them come across to me as being very > `bright'. >>>>>>> Alex: I beg your pardon? Do you have telepathy? Do you know for SURE that such and such is on such and such level? Sukin: You obviously don't use telepathy to interpret my posts, yet you go on to make a judgment. So do I with everything I read and hear. ;-) ============== Alex: Are you are implying very negative thinga regarding "most well known teachers of today" . Do you understand that if they are Ariyas the Kamma you are making? == AN Text V, 141, X, VIII, 75 Wherefore, Ananda, be ye not measurers in persons, take not the measures of persons. One is *ruined*, Ananda, by taking the measure of persons. But I myself, Ananda, and whose is like unto me, could take the measure of persons. == VI Disaster 'Monks, if any monk abuses and reviles, rails at the Ariyans who are his fellows in the Brahma-life, it is utterly impossible, it is Sukin: If they are Ariyans, the akusala kamma committed by me would be due to the "wrong view" I hold. This would be so even if I didn't speak out. But what if I'm in fact right and they are wrong………?? ================ >>> are no where close to having experienced any of the vipassana nanas, let alone magga. >>>> Alex: Do you do Vipassana meditation? How much and how often? I've heard of people going to Burma and doing 18+ hours a day of intensive Vipassana. Sukin: What you call `vipassana meditation' has nothing to do with what vipassana in reality is. That is in fact a form of indulgence in "wrong view". Please don't try to sell me that by using now a different label. ;-) ============== >>> Not everyone who heard the Buddha directly gained much good from the experience and there were some who wouldn't even listen. >>>> Alex: Because some people are simply not interested in "Putting down the burden, Detaching from aggregates, ending and quenching all tanha and such.". Some people want to GAIN something rather then to shed. Not many people have enough faith to go into the woods... Sukin: And some people believe that they *know* what the "burden" is, what the "aggregates" are and what it means to "end tanha' and the path leading to this end, when they actually don't. So they end up following their own projection and garnering this with even more ideas such as the `need for physical solitude'. ============ >>> Anyway, we know where we are, unless we are so completely deluded to think along the lines "that we could become Stream Enterers in this present life if only we practiced hard enough". >>>> Alex: Oh My! This is why I should be leaving this group, it is simply bad causes to read about "oh it can't be done. We don't have the accumulations... Magga is unachievable, no need to do anything... No effort and other [non Buddhist teaching]". Sukin: You have often cited and made the comparison, re: this "non Buddhist teaching". Please keep in mind this: those people in fact believed in "self" and had absolutely no clue about cause and effect / conditionality. They were justifying their own preference for sensual indulgence. On DSG, conditionality is stressed to the max and no excuse is ever made for any kind of akusala to be followed. What is being discouraged is the attempt at dealing with perceived akusala with what is judged to be a worse kind of it, namely "wrong view". I'm ending this here. My son needs to use the computer. Metta, Sukin #82308 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:11 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 35 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 500. "Anamatagge sa.msarato, mahi.m jambudiipamupaniita.m; kola.t.thimattagu.likaa, maataa maatusveva nappahonti. 498. "[Remember] the earth, Jambudiipa, compared with that which is without beginning or end for one who is journeying on. [Split up into] little balls the size of jujube kernels, [the number] is not equal to his mother's mothers. Mahi.m jambudiipamupaniita.m. Kola.t.thimattagu.likaa, maataa maatusveva nappahontiiti jambudiipotisa"nkhaata.m mahaapathavi.m kola.t.thimattaa badara.t.thimattaa gu.likaa katvaa tatthekekaa "aya.m me maatu, aya.m me maatumaatuu"ti eva.m vibhaajiyamaane taa gu.likaa maataa maatuusveva nappahonti, maataa maatuusu akhii.naasveva pariyantikaa taa gu.likaa parikkhaya.m pariyaadaana.m gaccheyyu.m, na tveva anamatagge sa.msaare sa.msarato sattassa maatumaataroti Eva.m jambudiipamahi.m sa.msaarassa diighabhaavena upamaabhaavena upaniita.m manasi karohiiti. 498. Compared with the earth, Jambudiipa, [if it were split up into] little balls the size of jujube kernesl (kil'-a.t.thi-matta-gu.likaa), the number is not equal to his mother's mothers means: having made the great earth, which is called Jambudiipa, into little balls (gu.likaa) the size of jujube kernels (kol'-a.t.thi-mattaa = badar'-a.t.thi-mattaa), then taking them one by one, saying, "This is my mother's; this is my mother's mother's (maatu-maatu)," distributing those little balls thus, [the number] is not equal to this mother's mothers (maataa-maatuusv). Limiting in this way one's unlimied mother's mothers, those balls would be exhausted and used up, but not the mother's mothers of a being journeying on in continued existence without a beginning or end. In that way, pay attention to Jambudiipa, the earth, being compared through the simile of the length of continued existence.* *Cf S II 176ff (KS II 118f), where the number of mothers are compared with grass, etc. (as in the next verse) and fathers are compared to little balls of earth. 501. "Ti.naka.t.thasaakhaapalaasa.m, upaniita.m anamataggato sara; catura"ngulikaa gha.tikaa, pitupitusveva nappahonti. 499. "Remember the grass, twigs, branches, and leaves complared with that which is without beginning or end. [Split up into} pieces four inches long, [they] are not equal to his father's fathers. Ti.naka.t.thasaakhaapalaasanti ti.na~nca ka.t.tha~nca saakhaapalaasa~nca. Upaniitanti upamaabhaavena upaniita.m. Anamataggatoti sa.msaarassa anamataggabhaavato. Catura"ngulikaa gha.tikaati catura"ngulappamaa.naani kha.n.daani. Pitupitusveva nappahontiiti pitupitaamahesu eva taa gha.tikaa nappahonti. Ida.m vutta.m hoti- imasmi.m loke sabba.m ti.na~nca ka.t.tha~nca saakhaapalaasa~nca catura"ngulikaa katvaa tatthekekaa "aya.m me pitu, aya.m me pitaamahassaa"ti vibhaajiyamaane taa gha.tikaava parikkhaya.m pariyaadaana.m gaccheyyu.m, na tveva anamatagge sa.msaare sa.msarato sattassa pitupitaamahaati. Eva.m ti.na~nca ka.t.tha~nca saakhaapalaasa~nca sa.msaarassa diighabhaavena upaniita.m saraahiiti. Imasmi.m pana .thaane- "Anamataggoya.m bhikkhave, sa.msaaro, pubbaa ko.ti na pa~n~naayati avijjaaniivara.naana.m sattaana.m ta.nhaasa.myojanaana.m sandhaavata.m sa.msarata.m. Ta.m ki.m ma~n~natha, bhikkhave, katama.m nu kho bahutara.m, ya.m vaa vo iminaa diighena addhunaa sandhaavata.m sa.msarata.m amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assupassanna.m paggharita.m, ya.m vaa catuusu mahaasamuddesu udakan"ti-aadikaa (sa.m. ni. 2.126)- 'anamataggapaa.li' aaharitabbaa. 499. The grass, twigs, branches, and leaves (ti.na-ka.t.tha-saakhaa-palaasa.m) means: grass (ti.na~n ca) and twigs (ka.t.tha~n ca) and leaves and branches (saakhaa-palaasa~n ca). Compared means: compared by means of a simile. Without beginning or end means: the state of continued existence being without beginning or end. Pieces four inches long (catur-a"ngulikaa) means: broken pieces four inches in size (catur-a"ngula-ppamaa.naani).* [They] are not equal to his father's fathers (pitu-pitusv) means: those pieces are not equal to this father's fathers (pitu-pitaa-mahesu). This is siad: "Having [broken] all the grass and twigs and branches and leaves in this world into pieces four inches long, and [taking them] there one by one, saying, "This is my father, this is my grandfather,' those pieces would be exhausted and used up, but not the father's fathers of a being journeying on in continued existence without a beginning or end." In that way, pay attention to the grass and twigs and branches and leaves being compared through the simile of the length of continued existence. And in this text in the [Kindred Sayings] on the Unknowable Beginning**, it is said: Bhikkhus, this continued existence is without beginning or end. A previous point [of begining] cannot be seen for this journeying on, this running on by beings fettered by craving and obstructed by ignorance. What do you think about this, bhikkhus? Which is greater, the tears shed in lamentation and weeping because of being separated from what is pleasant and being united with what is unpleasant while journeying on, while running through this long journey, or in the water in the four great oceans?*** *Mrs Rhys Davids follows KS II 118 when she translates "squares of straw". **S II 178-193 (Anamatagga-sa.myutta). *** S II 180 #3 (KS II 120). .. to be continued, connie #82309 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/6/2008 3:42:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: How does one abide contemplating body as a body "externally" through direct experience of such breathing? Rather, does this not involve conceptualization, projection, imagination, inference, etc.? ============================ IMO, of course - it is conceptual extrapolation. With metta, Howard #82310 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 6:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment nilovg Dear Sukinder and TG, there is something in what TG says and in what Sukinder says. Howard would say: keep the middle way. Op 6-feb-2008, om 13:46 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: > When one perceives in the moment a reality, there is no idea about > past and future. ------- N: If we keep on thinking; no, awareness is too difficult, there can only be intellectual understanding, nothing more, no chance of even reaching any stage of insight knowledge in this life, it may seem that one has no confidence in what the Buddha teaches: this leads to that effect. Here TG said: There is something in what he says. On the other hand, the difficulty of the Path should not be underestimated, and it is a long time practice. Sukin gave the solution: As the 'One auspicious night' sutta says: do not hanker after the past, the future has not come. Be aware of the present reality. When we are attentive to seeing now, hearing now, and have more understanding of these realities, we do not think of: will I attain, when will I attain? Besides, it seems that one finds oneself important when thinking in that way. Nina. #82311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment nilovg Dear Robert A, Op 5-feb-2008, om 17:12 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > So often in the "there are only dhammas" > discussions it has seemed to me that what is lost is the fact that > there are > people, people who deserve generousity, kindness, and respect. This is > why so many times I have come away from browsing at DSG feeling that > Ajahn Sujin's teachings show great mastery of the letter of the > Buddhist > teachings, but what of the spirit? --------- N: Some time ago we discussed this and I gave you a link to A.S.'s works. Did it not help you to understand her teachings? But I see your point, also often discussed with Lodewijk. It is right you bring up this point. I just quote the beginning of Kh Sujin's book on Mettaa: N: I think of Alex's quote: be no measurer of persons. Then if we are measurers, speak about this or that person or group behaving in such or such way, there is already conceit. There is some comparing. Cittas are so real, they arise because of conditions. Let us speak about cittas instead, and then there is no comparing, thinking of this or that person. It helps metta. It seems a paradox, but it is not. quote: What do you think of this? Do insist with questioning what you do not find clear. Nina. #82312 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 6:56 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (1) . dhammanusara My good friend Han, - So you chose to present the Book of Conditional Relations (Patthana). >Han: By choosing a difficult subject I hope to gain knowledge on the subject, with the inputs from the Group members who know better than me. By that way, I hope to learn more as I write. It may be like an on-the-job-training. T: Sadhu! Your kusala cetana to 'learn as you write' is going to give me a good education through tagging along with you, the Abhidhammika- in-training. In your introduction you described the Project's materials as follows. >Han: Then I selected a book titled "Patthaana" published by Triple Gem Publications, as a resource book. This book and a book in Burmese by Ashin Janakaabhivamsa formed the main resource materials. T: U Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi, the authors of "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma", say in the Introduction of their book as follows: The Patthana, the "Book of Conditional Relations," is probably the most important work of the Abhidhamma Pitaka and thus is traditionally designated the "Great Treatise" (mahapakarana). Gigantic in extent as well as in substance, the book comprises five volumes totalling 2500 pages in the Burmese-script Sixth Council edition. [end quote] I wonder if you have thought about how long it may take before you finally complete the planned presentation of these five volumes. Or, maybe your "main resource materials" are not the original "Great Treatise" ? With appreciation for your hard work, Tep === #82313 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: p.s. nilovg Dear Mike, Op 2-feb-2008, om 2:04 heeft m_nease het volgende geschreven: > On the hindrances: N: they can be objects of understanding and then > they do not obstruct. > > In fact they have to be objects of understanding. They have to be > > known as just dhammas. > > -------- Mike: > Thanks, this is the way I see it too. Am I right, do you think, in > thinking that 'hindrances' are so-called because they are hindrances > to concentration? ------- N: They obstruct the arising of kusala citta. The Expositor states: They are 'overwhelming the mind, weakening insight.' When there is unwise attention, there are conditions for the arising of the hindrances (K.S. V, Kindred Sayings on the Limbs of Wisdom, Ch IV, §5). Quote from my Cetasikas: In samatha the hindrances are temporarily suppressed at the moments of jhanacitta, and through vipassana they are eradicated. Nina. #82314 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 7:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > When there is true mettå other people are considered as friends: > there is a > feeling of closeness and sympathy, we have tender care for them and > we want > to do everything for their benefit and happiness. I thought there were no people, only dhammas? Metta, James #82315 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment nilovg Hi James, Op 6-feb-2008, om 16:37 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > I thought there were no people, only dhammas? ------ N: Lodewijk said that you have a point, when I told him about your expression fake metta. Citta with metta is a dhamma, a reality. It can think of persons. It can think with kusala or with akusala, such as conceit. As I said to Robert A, it seems a paradox, but it does work. But James, you have visited Sarah, and I did not have the impression that you met a person with fake metta. However, I think that you wanted to provoke, so that you would receive an answer about this seemingly paradox. It seems that we do not come far with logic, do we? Ultimate truth and let us say worldly truth, designating the world with all the people, are not in contradiction with each other. Ultimate truth helps us to understand the deeper sense of our life in the world. This understanding sees through the outward appearance of things, it goes to the essence. It does help with our relationship with our fellow human beings. Understanding conditions is indispensable. Otherwise I would be blaming contrarious people. In case of having aversion or negative feelings I would blame others. It is so important to understand kamma condition. Kamma conditions gain and loss, praise and blame and the other worldly vicissitudes. These change all the time. The rupas of the body fall away each moment, nothing left of them, but they are replaced by other rupas. The body seems so solid, but it is very fragile and ephemeral. We are reminded, tomorrow we go to a neighbour's funeral. Yes, mere dhammas arising and falling away. Life exists in one moment only. When seeing, our life is seeing. When hearing, our life is hearing. When metta arises because of the proper conditions, our life is metta. When anger arises, our life is anger. Does this makes sense to you, James? Nina. #82316 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment dhammanusara Hi James (and Nina), - I hope you don't mind allowing me to participate in the discussion. > Nina wrote: When there is true mettå other people are considered as friends: there is a feeling of closeness and sympathy, we have tender care for them and we want to do everything for their benefit and happiness. James asked: I thought there were no people, only dhammas? ........... Tep: Nina might be tired of being asked this kind of question many times already. So let me try answering it for her. ;-)) James, I found a very good answer to your question in the introduction to "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" by Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi. Let me share the information with you, hopefully it will help you as it has done for me. "The Abhidhamma may be described as a philosophy because it proposes an ontology, a perspective on the nature of the real. This perspective has been designated the "dhamma theory" (dhammavada). Briefly, the dhamma theory maintains that ultimate reality consists of a multiplicity of elementary constituents called dhammas. The dhammas are not noumena hidden behind phenomena, not "things in themselves" as opposed to "mere appearances," but the fundamental components of actuality. "The familiar world of substantial objects and enduring persons is, according to the dhamma theory, a conceptual construct fashioned by the mind out of the raw data provided by the dhammas. The entities of our everyday frame of reference possess merely a consensual reality derivative upon the foundational stratum of the dhammas. It is the dhammas alone that possess ultimate reality: determinate existence 'from their own side' (sarupato) independent of the mind's conceptual processing of the data". [end quote] Sincerely, Tep === #82317 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:15 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 3, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 3. Samatha and Vipassana. If one is disturbed by strong defilements it is most difficult to be aware of one’s akusala cittas. Defilements prevent the arising of satipatthåna. Clinging to sense objects may be so strong, it can even motivate akusala kamma patha. Should one not develop calm first, so that insight can be developed afterwards with more ease? This is a question that is often asked, and in India this was also discussed. People of old saw the disadvantages of sense impressions. They knew that seeing is very often followed by attachment. Therefore they developed calm to the degree of absorption concentration, jhåna, so that they would be temporarily freed from sense impressions and the defilements arising on account of them. However, defilements are not eradicated by samatha. When one emerges from jhåna insight of all nåmas and rúpas is to be developed so that enlightenment can be attained. In the development of samatha paññå must be very keen so that it discerns precisely the different cetasikas that are jhånafactors which have to be developed, and, in order to reach the higher stages of jhåna, one has to know which are the coarser jhånafactors which have to be abandoned. A person must have accumulated great skill in order to attain jhåna. Paññå is necessary so that calm is developed in the right way. One has to know precisely when kusala citta arises and when akusala citta. If there is subtle clinging to calm, one may mislead oneself. We discussed in India whether there is a certain order of development of síla, samådhi and paññå. It seems that the texts of the suttas point in this direction. We read in the Mahåparinibbånasutta (Dialogues of the Buddha, no.16) that the Buddha repeatedly said: “Such and such is síla, such and such is concentration, such and such is wisdom. Great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of concentration when it is fully developed by síla. Great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of wisdom when it is fully developed by concentration. Utterly freed from the intoxicants (aasavas) of Lust, of becoming and of ignorance is the mind that is fully developed in wisdom.” When one reads this text it seems that there has to be síla first, then concentration and then paññå. We discussed this with Acharn Sujin who said: “Can síla and samådhi be fully developed without paññå?” The sotåpanna has fully developed síla, he cannot transgress the five precepts nor commit akusala kamma leading to an unhappy rebirth. The anågåmi has fully developed calm, he has eradicated all clinging to sense pleasures. Síla and samådhi become fully developed by paññå. ****** Nina. #82318 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:27 am Subject: Re: mettaa. the present moment avalo1968 Hello Nina, Thank you very much for your comments. It had not been my intent to judge others in my original posting. However, it is clear from your response as well as Sukin's and Sarah's that it was taken this way and this I regret. You and the others are quite right that no one should judge others and particularly not judge their attainment or lack of attainment, but I am afraid we do need to make these judgements to some extent because I believe the Buddha gave great importance to who you hang out with as either supporting or retarding your progress on the Path. So, you have to understand how your associations work on your states of mind and make it more conducive to, for example, calm and clear seeing, or agitation and confusion. This was the point I was trying to make in my original postings. I was trying to say that there are many good and useful things at DSG, but that I need to look carefully at how visiting here works on the state of my mind, and I am afraid on balance I cannot say it is positive. How I responded to my most recent visit with the posting that I did and the reaction and follow on to my posting seems to make the very point I was trying to make. It is disappointing that this is so, for obviously, I do come back here for some reason, and it is disappointing to so quickly be reminded why you left each time you return. If I am serious about practice, and I hope I am, then hanging out at DSG is something I would do better to do without. The other point I was trying to make is that about Ajahn Sujin's teachings mastering the letter of the Buddha's teaching while somehow losing the spirit. As I said, take these comments as ones offered with good intention and as something to consider and feel free to ignore them if you see no merit in what I say. Adios DSG, Robert A. #82319 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:35 am Subject: Re: the present moment truth_aerator Sukin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Sukin: Please note: No one here believes in accumulating "knowledge" > for the sake of it. Having made the distinction between this and > intellectual "understanding", what is then being encouraged is to turn > the mind to the present moment experience in order to study it. >>> What do you think happens in a properly done BUDDHIST Bhavana (meditation)? Study of experience! If you define "meditation" as simply blanking out and nothing after it, then I agree with you - it doesn't work for liberation. But if you do meditation FOR INSIGHT (which includes studying stress, its origin, its cessation, etc) and whatever arises - then it is helpful. >>> This by conditions, including accumulations, can be Pariyatti, Patipatti or Pativedha, none of which however is within power of will to make rise. >>>> This is true in a sense that simply wishing will not work. This has been stated in the suttas (and this is one reason why Buddha was an Arahant. He couldn't be like a Mahayana Bodhisattva). A mental label that "I can't do anything" will be a cause for not producing energy, desire, decision and so on to provide the causes for results. A mental label "It can be done" on other hand will be a helpful cause. > And all three will agree to this very fact of dhammas being > conditioned and beyond control, hence never would any idea emerge from them about any "doings". >>> This is what happens when you take a very extreme stance on conditionality, ignoring the fact that some things can be unconditioned and not 100% dependent on previous causes. > > The story above is only your own projection. > Or yours. > Sukin: If they are Ariyans, the akusala kamma committed by me would be due to the "wrong view" I hold. This would be so even if I didn't > speak out. > Speech is also Kamma. > > But what if I'm in fact right and they are wrong���?? >>> In any case, making such sweeping generalizations ABOUT MONK TEACHERS is not good. > ================ > >>> > are no where close to having experienced any of the vipassana nanas, > let alone magga. > >>>> > Alex: > Do you do Vipassana meditation? How much and how often? I've heard of > people going to Burma and doing 18+ hours a day of intensive > Vipassana. > > > Sukin: What you call `vipassana meditation' has nothing to do with > what vipassana in reality is. >>> >> That is in fact a form of indulgence in > "wrong view". > Please don't try to sell me that by using now a different label. ;-) >>> One pointed concentration when you try to be deaf and blind & insensitive to satipatthana is wrong view/practice - sure. But do you know what true Meditation is all about? > Sukin: And some people believe that they *know* what the "burden" is, > what the "aggregates" are and what it means to "end tanha' and the > path leading to this end, when they actually don't. >>> If they fully knew it, they'd be Arahant. One way to see it for yourself... Meditate! >>> So they end up following their own projection and garnering this with even more ideas > such as the `need for physical solitude'. >>>> How many suttas have you read? Sariputta needed, Mahamoggallana needed it, 5 ascetic friends, etc... And so many (if not all) of the best Arahats in Buddha's dispensation (even before large monasteries were built), > ============ > >>> > Anyway, we know where we are, unless we are so completely deluded to > think along the lines "that we could become Stream Enterers in this > present life if only we practiced hard enough". > >>>> > > Alex: > Oh My! This is why I should be leaving this group, it is simply bad > causes to read about "oh it can't be done. We don't have the > accumulations... Magga is unachievable, no need to do anything... No > effort and other [non Buddhist teaching]". > > > Sukin: You have often cited and made the comparison, re: this "non > Buddhist teaching". Please keep in mind this: those people in fact > believed in "self" and had absolutely no clue about cause and effect / > conditionality. They were justifying their own preference for sensual indulgence. >>> Sensual indulgence includes mental objects and "not doing anything". >>> On DSG, conditionality is stressed to the max and no excuse is ever made for any kind of akusala to be followed. >>> What about the Buddha? He didn't stress it to such a degree for sotopanaship. Did you read what his gradual discource was like? Are unwholesome states kusala or akusala? Is seclusion from them kusala or akusala? Is skillful seeing anicca-dukkha-anatta kusala or akusala? Is seeing vinnana, namas & rupas rise and fall -kusala or akusala? Metta, Alex #82320 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:50 am Subject: Re: the present moment sukinderpal Hi Phil, Tomorrow I may not have time to use the computer, so I will reply to this one now. =================== > At first I was astounded that you assigned such a basic Dhamma > point to me, then I remembered that you claimed with some pride that > you hardly ever read suttas and it made more sense. How did you come to the "pride" part, was it something that I said in addition? Or is it just the irritation you were experiencing while writing this? Why would I be proud of such a thing?!! I have said more than once about my problem with "reading" and that the only reading that I'm able to do, is to read posts on DSG. Do you think that I end up reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries instead? Just for the record, I think I must have read no more than 300 pages of books by Nina and A. Sujin combined, in these past seven years. I consider it my bad accumulations to be this way. But then of course, I don't think such a thing is a hindrance to the development of understanding. ;-) =================== > > On the other hand, it has been suggested by some, for example Phil, that > > the Buddha being the Great Teacher, he also taught those with very weak > > accumulations like us, about aspects of Dhamma `catered?Eto our > level of understanding. But in fact this is only Tanha speaking. > > Phil: Sukin, please Google "gradual training Buddha." I assume something > good will come up from that search. I don't have time to re-educate > you and it would be in vain because you are fully indoctrinated in > your way. But just in case miracles happen, here is the passage I > posted about 10 days ago: Is that the best you can do coming to a conclusion that I am "fully indoctrinated" and that your words would just bounce off my ears while those of A. Sujin somehow works by way of osmosis? ;-) ================= > from AN VIII, 21, THe Householder Ugga: > > "With trusting heart I then waited upon the Blessed One. And the > Blessed One gave me a gradual instruction, namely a talk on giving, > on virtue, on the heavens, on the danger, vanity and impurity of > sensual pleasures and oth the advantages of renunciation. ****WHen > the Blessed One saw that my mind was prepared, susceptible, free of > hindrances, elevated and lucid, he then revelaed to me that Dhamma > instruction particular to the Buddhas, namely, suffering, its > origin, its cessation and the path..." Sukin: In one of my posts to TG, I suggested that the Buddha did at times gradually lead his audience to deeper understanding. I said however, that this was possible only because they *had* the required accumulations and not having wrong view / doubt arise along the way to obstruct anything. Is this the same as what you are saying? It is one thing to be listening to the Buddha speaking directly to your accumulations and another to be taking the Buddha's teaching to someone else and saying that you *know* that it applies equally to yourself. It is one thing to hear the Buddha talk about dana, sila, danger of sensual pleasures without making any choice to listen to one or another of topics and quite something else to picking and choosing to take `lessons' from only that which is agreeable. Who / what is indeed doing the choosing? It is one thing that the Buddha then begins to talk about deeper things knowing fully well the other's citta and quite another for someone to decide when and where what applies while entertaining ideas about this present level of interest will somehow lead to a higher level. Has it not occurred to you that were you really to "know" such thing, that indeed you are already quite well along the Path? Lastly, it is one thing for the Buddha to be talking about the "value" of kusala / cause and effect re: kusala kamma leading to good rebirths and another for a person to aim at those rebirths and try to *do* kusala? =============== Phil: > Your teacher disregards the gradual training and drives you > relentlessly straight to the deepest teachings. In my opinion, this > results in trivializing the deep teachings. Fortunately, her > approach is hardly spreading, and will dissipate and blow away > within a generation or so. Sukin: She starts from the very beginning, only this happens not to coincide with your own ideas about what the beginning constitutes. What you see as being too deep is not because that it is in fact so, but only your own resistance due to misunderstanding where she comes from. But then this has been explained over and again to you, and I wonder why you keep refusing to acknowledge those explanations. I guess you just don't like it that her methods don't promise the kind of results you in fact hope for? :-/ =============== > When the BB Anguttara Nikaya anthologies come out, I hope someone > organizes an emergency air drop over The Foundation. You guys really > need to get back to the basics so that understanding of the deep > teachings can have properly nurtured soil to grow in. Sukin: There are many more Thai students than English ones and the Thai version of AN have long been available. What say you now? ;-) =============== > This is a mean-spirited post, but so be it. I made the mistake of > reading DSG before bed last night and it really screwed up my sleep. Sukin: Don't blame me! No seriously, even if you are never going to be convinced, I do hope that you will get over all this by finally coming to see the danger of that dosa. ;-) =============== > I am really and truly leaving DSG until I have time to deal with > this sort of thing. Sukin: I think you better find another way of dealing with this. Simply deciding to leave is not going to ultimately work, I think. =============== > Metta, > > Phil (currenly operated by Mr. Tanha and the Duke of Dosa.) Sukin: :-) When I referred to Mr. Tanha I was making a general statement and not meaning you. ============== > p.s I'm irritated now, but it will pass. But I do have to leave. If > and when my writing career gives me more time of my full-time > teaching job, I'll return. Not until then. Be well, all. Sukin: But dosa doesn't stay, it passed away already by the time you thought about it! ;-) Good luck with your job and the writing. Hope you make lots of money, enough to fly down to Bangkok even if you do not feel so motivated, or just for the heck of it. :-) Metta, Sukin #82321 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Tep, Scott, Sukinder & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, (Scott, Alex & all), > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > T: In my humble opinion contemplation as used in the suttas is much > > more than just 'thinking about'; it is anupassana of the dhammas. Yes, it is true. For > > example, in the Satipatthana Sutta [MN 10; also, DN 22] the Pali for > > contemplation of the body in the body is 'kayanupassana'. > .... > S: I agree with your comments. Anupassana refers to direct 'seeing'. > Thank you for sharing the extract with Pali. Thanks also to Han for his assistance. >>> The below extract describes quite well the purpose and what happens in Buddhist meditation (Jhana. see mn111, mn64, an9.36 for example) If you think that meditation is simply blanking out unconsciousness, then I too agree with you that that "meditation" is non Buddhist and not insightful. The "proper" meditation DOES involve insight quite heavily into "realities" as they happen. > > > 'Idha bhikkhave, bhikkhu, kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati aataapii > > sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassam...' > > > > "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, > > ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having > > overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; ... [Translated from > > the Pali by Soma Thera] > > > > T: The Pali 'anupassana' was also translated as 'contemplation' in > > the Patism (translation by ~Nanamoli Bhikkhu) in section 244 on the > > seven anupassanas. > > > > 244. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that > > body? He contemplates it as impermanent (aniccato anupassati), not as > > permanent (no niccato); as painful (dukkhato anupassati), not as > > pleasant (no sukhato); as not self (anattato anupassati), not as > > self (no attato); he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not > > delight (no nandati); he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does > > not inflame it (no rajjati); he causes cessation (nirodheti), not > > arising (no samudeti); he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not > > grasp (no aadiyati). [Patisambhidamagga, III Breathing Treatise] Lots of Metta, Alex #82322 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? TGrand458@... Nina!!!!! You came through for me at last!!! Finally an admission of "inferential mental activities" as part of the Satipattha Sutta teachings! Now, after you admit to inferential knowledge, you do some interesting wiggling that doesn't make sense to me, but glad you're onboard the inferential knowledge train. ;-) I have some comments below too..... In a message dated 2/6/2008 1:55:20 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear TG, Op 6-feb-2008, om 9:41 heeft _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) het volgende geschreven: > "In this way he abides contemplating body as a body internally, or > he abides > contemplating body as a body externally,. co > > (BB's note: -- MA: "Internally" (BB's note: -- MA: "Internally": > own > body. "Externally" body. "Externally": contemplating the br > body of > another.) > > How does one abide contemplating body as a body "externally" > through direct > experience of such breathing? Rather, does this not involve > conceptualization, projection, imagination, inference, etc.? -------- N: Perhaps inference is more like it. A similar situation: contemplating the feelings and cittas externally; of someone else. Or the body of someone else. ................................................................. NEW TG: Yes, those as well. ......................................................... As I understood it: it is a reminder to be aware of one's 'own' bodily phenomena. citta, feeling. One cannot be directly aware of someone else's nama and rupa. ............................................................ NEW TG: Of course one can't be directly aware of someone else's nama and rupa. That's the whole point! This passage is not about being directly aware of someone else's nama and rupa. Its about Its about using rational thought, reasoning, inference, yes concepts, to analyze the nature of "external events." It is NOT A REMINDER. Where does the Buddha say this is a reminder????? No. The Buddha teaches this as instruction...of something to do. To do what? To contemplate external phenomena! And that can only be done through inference! ........................................................................... Kh Sujin said: don't you know it when someone else touches you? There is tangible object appearing and it can be object of mindfulness. Coming back to seeing bones or corpses: it reminds us to be aware of 'our bones' as only rupas. ...................................................................... NEW TG: That seems to have nothing to do with the passage in question. If it meant to, then it is wild speculation. TG OUT #82323 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment nilovg Dear Robert A, Op 6-feb-2008, om 17:27 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > Thank you very much for your comments. It had not been my intent to > judge others in my original posting. However, it is clear from your > response as well as Sukin's and Sarah's that it was taken this way and > this I regret. -------- N: I never thought you were judging dsg, not at all. I thought you brought in a good point for considering. It is a dilemma felt by many, and your remark was a good occasion to consider and discuss it. I am sure others had similar feelings. There is a certain way of debating which one should not misunderstand. Some people may think that there is aversion, but it is more a lively kind of discussion. Everyone has his style and don't take it amiss. After a while you get used to the styles of different people. Some like capitals for emphasizing;-)) I hope it is not an adios now for you. Nina. #82324 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 11:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > > Op 6-feb-2008, om 16:37 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > I thought there were no people, only dhammas? > ------ > N: Lodewijk said that you have a point, when I told him about your > expression fake metta. > > Citta with metta is a dhamma, a reality. It can think of persons. It > can think with kusala or with akusala, such as conceit. As I said to > Robert A, it seems a paradox, but it does work. James: No, I don't really think it works. Otherwise I wouldn't keep pressing this issue. I only accept the Middle Way; I don't accept paradox (and to my thinking they are different). > But James, you have visited Sarah, and I did not have the impression > that you met a person with fake metta. James: Sarah has been brainwashed. When she is herself, her metta and kindness are very real; when she is touting the KS philosophy, she can be very fake and frustrating (I don't mean to offend; I only bring this up because you did, Nina). > However, I think that you wanted to provoke, so that you would > receive an answer about this seemingly paradox. It seems that we do > not come far with logic, do we? James: Depends on the logic. > Ultimate truth and let us say worldly truth, designating the world > with all the people, are not in contradiction with each other. > Ultimate truth helps us to understand the deeper sense of our life in > the world. This understanding sees through the outward appearance of > things, it goes to the essence. It does help with our relationship > with our fellow human beings. James: If you believe that people are just an "outward appearance" (unreal) then any kindness you might feel toward them is also unreal and fake. The Buddha didn't not encourage delusion so people have to be either real or unreal- they cannot be both. > > Understanding conditions is indispensable. Otherwise I would be > blaming contrarious people. In case of having aversion or negative > feelings I would blame others. It is so important to understand kamma > condition. Kamma conditions gain and loss, praise and blame and the > other worldly vicissitudes. These change all the time. > The rupas of the body fall away each moment, nothing left of them, > but they are replaced by other rupas. The body seems so solid, but it > is very fragile and ephemeral. We are reminded, tomorrow we go to a > neighbour's funeral. Yes, mere dhammas arising and falling away. Life > exists in one moment only. When seeing, our life is seeing. When > hearing, our life is hearing. When metta arises because of the proper > conditions, our life is metta. When anger arises, our life is anger. > Does this makes sense to you, James? James: This is along the lines of what Sukin wrote recently about arrogance; that when arrogance is gone it is gone. However, I do not agree with this viewpoint of the human condition. There are always present latent tendencies so our life is not just metta, then anger, then arrogance, etc. We are not re-created, anew, each moment. People are separate beings with a long history of lifetimes. As in the "Questions of King Malinda" rebirth of the individual is described as "not the same but not entirely different either" (which is the Middle Way, not paradox) > Nina. Metta, James #82325 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 11:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: .. > > Tep: Nina might be tired of being asked this kind of question many > times already. So let me try answering it for her. ;-)) > > James, I found a very good answer to your question in the > introduction to "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" by Rewata > Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi. Let me share the information with you, > hopefully it will help you as it has done for me. Thank you for the quote but I don't find it useful in answering my question. Perhaps you could explain how it helped you. Metta, James #82326 From: "colette" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:54 am Subject: Re: Good Abidings ksheri3 No time to realy answer, but THANX. I enjoyed the total humor you skillfully applied. THANK YOU! as J. Buffet said: "If we didn't laugh, we would all go insane". colette #82327 From: "Leo" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 1:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] noble truth leoaive hi thanks for reply. i found that it can be translated as: there is suffering. also, buddha said that dhamma is at the right time. in some cases buddha was talking about different happiness. so i see suffering as one subject and happiness as other. leo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Leo, > > --- Leo wrote: > > > I am not sure about correct translation of th First Noble Truth. > > In some cases it looks to me it is translated as: Life is suffereing. > > In other cases, there are Suttas, that tells about different happiness > > in life. So from that I can come to conclusion, that First Noble Truth > > shouls be: Lafe has suffering. (not life is suffering, or all suffering) > > I would really appreciate, if you would tell me if it can be translated > > like that: Life has suffering, from Pali language. > ... > S: "Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering, grief, > lamentation, discomfort, unhappiness and despair are suffering; to wish > for something and not obtain it is suffering; briefly, the five factors of > attachment are suffering." (Rune Johansson's transl.) > > The last line is very important: "the five factors of attachment are > suffering". Here, the five factors refer to the 5 khandhas which are clung > to. > > You ask whether we can say 'life has suffering'. Actually, every reality > which makes up life is suffering because it arises and falls away. Even > happy feelings are dukkha. They don't last. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > #82328 From: han tun Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 3:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (1) . hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, Tep: Sadhu! Your kusala cetana to 'learn as you write' is going to give me a good education through tagging along with you, the Abhidhammika-in-training. Han: I will need your inputs, Tep. Your difficult and penetrating questions stimulate me to read more and to learn more! -------------------- Tep: U Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi, the authors of "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma", say in the Introduction of their book as follows: The Patthana, the "Book of Conditional Relations," is probably the most important work of the Abhidhamma Pitaka and thus is traditionally designated the "Great Treatise" (mahapakarana) . Gigantic in extent as well as in substance, the book comprises five volumes totalling 2500 pages in the Burmese-script Sixth Council edition. [end quote] I wonder if you have thought about how long it may take before you finally complete the planned presentation of these five volumes. Or, maybe your "main resource materials" are not the original "Great Treatise" ? Han: I know what you meant by the Great Treatise. I received that one in Pali, in five volumes, when I first requested my son in Yangon to send me the Patthaana some years ago. I had to send them back and asked my son to donate to some monastery. The monks in Burma chant that Great Treatise in Pali, non-stop, in shifts, for about five days, just to cover one time from beginning to end. No, Tep, not that one. This is an abridged one, only 6.5 and 8.5 inches and half inch thick. And it contains Pali, Burmese translation and English translation. So it is a small volume. Respectfully, Han #82329 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 4:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 2 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "it was "ignorance, craving, and clinging" of the past in 'your' stream of cittas. See Vis. Ch XVII, were it is explained how these are decisive support-conditions. Nothing to do with your parent's kamma." Larry: The phrase is: "When it [the material body] is born thus its causes (root-causes) are the four things, namely, ignorance, craving, clinging, and kamma... the three beginning with ignorance are decisive-support for this body, as the mother is for her infant, and kamma begets it, as the father does the child..." If "ignorance, craving, and clinging" are mine, whose is "kamma"? Could "kamma" refer to kamma produced rupa? In that case, that would be mine also. Larry #82330 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 4:19 pm Subject: Message from Phil sarahprocter... Phil asked me to f/w the following to the group. He says he's away from his computer for a while. ************************* Dear Group My apologies for the harsh and slanderous speech in my previous post. A. Sujin has made some very important contributions to the teaching of Dhamma. For example, her excellent book on the Perfections. As another temporary parting gift I offer this from p.38 of the chapter on Morality: "Sila is twofold: as avoidance (vaaritta) and as performance (caarita.) Sila as avoidance is abstaining from evil. Sila as performance is the right conduct one should follow. We may abstain from akusala and not transgress the precepts, but with regard to sila as perfomance, we should consider the Bodhisatta's conduct, so that we shall further develop kusala. (Here because of time considerations I skip a passage from the Basket of Conduct commentary.) Sila of performance is subtle and refined and we should consider it at the present moment with sati." Here I think we have a very helpful distinction between "subtle and refined" forms of sila (caarita, performance), and the other kind (vaarita, avoidance) which is by implication not so subtle. I am personally more interested in the latter (sila as avoidance) because that is, I know, where the first steps of salvation lie for me. I am more interested in Avoid Evil than I am in Do Good, and I believe there is a reason that it is always mentioned first in the suttanta. But I shouldn't allow this to blind me to the value of that more subtle approach practiced by those people whose wholesome accumulations allow it. My apologies and thanks to A. Sujin for always allowing consideration of such subtle and refined aspects. It was foolish of me to slander her for it just because I am not in a position to benefit. My apologies also to Sukin for my slanderous and harsh words aimed at him. Thanks, and best of luck to you all on the path. Metta, Phil #82331 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 4:23 pm Subject: Cemetery contemplations and discursive thinking (was, Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment) jonoabb Hi TG Your frequent reference to the cemetery contemplations in the Satipatthana Sutta in your recent posts got me interested ;-)). So I've looked up the passage. The first of the 9 cemetery contemplations reads as follows (Soma Thera translation, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html): "And further, O bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu, in whatever way, sees a body dead, one, two, or three days: swollen, blue and festering, thrown into the charnel ground, he thinks of his own body thus: 'This body of mine too is of the same nature as that body, is going to be like that body and has not got past the condition of becoming like that body.' "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally... and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, also, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body." You read this as a reference to conceptualisation, to discursive thinking about things, rather than to direct awareness of dhammas. For example, in your post below to Sukin you say: "The Buddha asks us to compare our body to the corpse and to realize that our body too will become like that." My reading of the passage: 1. It is not saying that a corpse should be viewed (as part of a practice, for example). It just says: "...if a bhikkhu, in whatever way, [sees a corpse]...." . 2. It is not saying, if a corpse is seen, that it should then be contemplated in a certain way. What it's saying is that *if* a corpse is seen *and if* a certain kind of reflection is thereby conditioned, then this would be an instance of contemplating the body in the body, i.e., satipatthana. 3. As to the reflection being referred to, the commentary says the following: "This has been stated: By the existence of these three: life [ayu], warmth [usma], consciousness [viññanam], this body can endure to stand, to walk, and do other things; by the separation of these three however this body is indeed a thing like that corpse, is possessed of the nature of corruption, is going to become like that, will become swollen, blue and festering and cannot escape the state of being like that, cannot transcend the condition of swelling up, become blue and festering." I take this to be a reference to direct understanding of dhammas such as consciousness [vinnanam], temperature, etc. After all, if it was just discursive reflection on the (theoretical) difference between a live body and a corpse, it would not be a teaching unique to a Buddha; it would be just another kind of thinking, with the same old ideas of self, about the inevitability of death. Also, such a reading would not be consistent with the other sections of the same sutta. Take for example the earlier section on the modes of deportment: "And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. ... "Thus, also, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body." Here it is clear, I think, that the sutta describes the person who is of already developed understanding, rather than suggesting a course of (mental or physical) action to be followed by the would-be practitioner in order to give rise to satipatthana. Jon TGrand458@... wrote: > Hi Sukin > > Thanks for your comments. > > In a message dated 2/3/2008 11:30:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > sukinder@... writes: > > No TG, I don't think that the Buddha would teach any kind of practice > which would go at the expense of understanding present moment realities. > ..................................................... > > NEW TG: What are you talking about? Have you not been paying attention to > my posts? I've said over and over again, just in this last week, that being > mindful of the present is very important! I just don't throw out conceptual > reasoning because of that. > > ........................................................ > > > > > And I think that the situation is similar when it comes to the cemetery > contemplations you refer to in your post to Nina and Sarah. > One is not being asked to "compare and imagine". > ............................................................ > > NEW TG: Again, what are you talking about? Have you read the Cemetery > Contemplations? It is exactly to compare that the Buddha is asking us to do. > The Buddha asks us to compare our body to the corpse and to realize that our > body too will become like that. If that aint conceptualization/imagination at > work, I don't know what is. > > ............................................................. > > > > The whole of the > Satipatthana Sutta is about "satipatthana"Satipatthana Sutta is about "satipa > panna which knows namas and rupas. > ......................................................... > > NEW TG: No, it isn't ALL about that. As I have clearly demonstrated. > > ................................................................. > > > The conventional situations described > are *reminders* about what one might in fact be mindful of when in those > situations instead of going as before, taking everything for "self". > This is one reason why it won't ever work for the so-called meditators, > they have in fact gone ahead and taken the "practice" itself for "self". > > > ................................................................ > > NEW TG: I can't follow this on any level. ... > #82332 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 4:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (1) . dhammanusara Dear Friend Han, - [Note: whenever I capitalize 'friend' I mean 'kalyaanamitta'.] >Han: I will need your inputs, Tep. Your difficult and penetrating questions stimulate me to read more and to learn more! T: Only great Dhamma students welcome "difficult and penetrating questions", Han. But it is ten times less difficult to ask good questions than to give a good answer. Of course I am more than happy to give inputs, Han, like you have done for me at the SariputtaDhamma Group. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Friend Tep, > > Tep: Sadhu! Your kusala cetana to 'learn as you write' > is going to give me a good education through tagging > along with you, the Abhidhammika-in-training. > #82333 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 3 lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Sarah: "Note the stress on 'comprehension by direct observation of the causal conditions'. There is nothing conceptual/theoretical about such a degree of right understanding/vipassanaa." Larry: I agree. Otherwise this insight would have arisen for all of us. If we think we have a past or a future or a present then there is still doubt about the three divisions of time. It is easy to read and understand these words but the actual insight is something else. "5. After discerning the material body's condition in this way, he again discerns the mental body in the way beginning: 'Due to eye and to visible object eye consciousness arises' (S.ii,72; M.i,111). When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality is due to conditions, then he sees that, as now, so in the past too its occurrence was due to conditions, and in the future too its occurrence will be due to conditions. 6. When he sees it in this way, all his uncertainty is abandoned, that is to say, the five kinds of uncertainty about the past stated thus 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' (M.i,8), and also the five kinds of uncertainty about the future stated thus 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' (M.i,8), and also the six kinds of uncertainty about the present stated thus 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Whence will this being have come? Wither will it be bound?' (M.i,8)." Larry #82334 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:10 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,237 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 237. What is intended here is but Resultant pleasant feeling; hence 'Tis a condition in one way For all this craving's occurrence. 'In one way': it is a condition as decisive-support condition only. ************************** 237. yasmaa cettha adhippetaa, vipaakasukhavedanaa. ekaava ekadhaavesaa, tasmaa ta.nhaaya paccayo.. ekadhaati upanissayapaccayeneva paccayo hoti. #82335 From: han tun Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (1) . hantun1 That is great Tep, my Friend and Dhamma Brother. I really appreciate it. Han --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: Only great Dhamma students welcome "difficult and > penetrating > questions", Han. But it is ten times less difficult > to ask good > questions than to give a good answer. > Of course I am more than happy to give inputs, Han, > like you have > done for me at the SariputtaDhamma Group. > > Tep > === > #82336 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:17 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (1) . scottduncan2 Dear Han, Thank you very much for choosing to present this subject: H: "I chose Patthaana, because it is so very deep and profound that the six colourful spectrum of extremely brilliant rays, much brighter than the light of heavenly angels, emanated and emitted from Buddha's body, only when he was contemplating the Patthaana, for the first time after his enlightenment. The second reason for choosing it was because it is one of the subjects that I know least. By choosing a difficult subject I hope to gain knowledge on the subject, with the inputs from the Group members who know better than me. By that way, I hope to learn more as I write. It may be like an on-the-job-training." Scott: Like you, I love to learn on-the-job (and feel in very good company). I like to study this difficult subject and learn about those things that push the whole of samsaara. I'm looking forward to this. Sincerely, Scott. #82337 From: han tun Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (1) . hantun1 Dear Scott, > Scott: Like you, I love to learn on-the-job (and feel in very good company). I like to study this difficult subject and learn about those things that push the whole of samsaara. I'm looking forward to this. Han: Thank you very much for your kind encouragement, and for your willingness to participate. Respectfully, Han #82338 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. dhammanusara Hi James (Nina and other friends), - In my last message I gave you a quote from the introduction to "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" by Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/abhiman.html >James: Thank you for the quote but I don't find it useful in answering my question. Perhaps you could explain how it helped you. T: Thank you for allowing me to entertain you further; I'll do my best to explain. [I know 'my best' is oftentimes not good enough.] It all began with Nina's talk about 'true metta' and her 'tender care' for friends, etc. Then you questioned her : "I thought there were no people, only dhammas?" First, let me summarize what Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi essentially say in the quote. 1. The Abhidhamma perspective on the nature of realities is based on the "dhammas" that are the fundamental components of actuality. 2. The real world of objects and "persons" (or people) is a "conceptual construct" or "derivative" made by the mind out of the dhammas. I believe they (the two bhikkhu authors) conclude that although things and people are real in the worldly sense, they are not reality in the ultimate --or pure-- sense of the dhammas. And that is a very good answer to your question to Nina (in my humble opinion) ! Yet it may be more convincing to let they tell you in their own words : "It is the dhammas alone that possess ultimate reality: determinate existence 'from their own side' (sarupato) independent of the mind's conceptual processing of the data". That's all I can explain, James. I have tried, but statistically (through observation over the years) the chance to win your approval is perhaps no better than that of winning a grand prize of the Texas Lotto. ;-) Tep === > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > .. > > > > Tep: Nina might be tired of being asked this kind of question many times already. So let me try answering it for her. ;-)) > > #82339 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 7:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 3 scottduncan2 Dear Larry and Sarah, Regarding: L: "If we think we have a past or a future or a present then there is still doubt about the three divisions of time. It is easy to read and understand these words but the actual insight is something else...When he sees it in this way, all his uncertainty is abandoned, that is to say, the five kinds of uncertainty about the past stated thus 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' (M.i,8), and also the five kinds of uncertainty about the future stated thus 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' (M.i,8), and also the six kinds of uncertainty about the present stated thus 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Whence will this being have come? Wither will it be bound?' (M.i,8)." Scott: I'm happy to conclude that, in the absence of all the above, there is only the present moment. Sincerely, Scott. #82340 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 7:48 pm Subject: Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > I believe they (the two bhikkhu authors) conclude that although > things and people are real in the worldly sense, they are not reality > in the ultimate --or pure-- sense of the dhammas. And that is a very > good answer to your question to Nina (in my humble opinion) ! James: I don't really see how that is an answer. The K. Sujin quote wrote that metta is to see all people as friends; I asked how that is to be possible if people don't really exist. That would mean that metta needs to be unwise and delusional- which we should know isn't true since the Buddha possessed metta of great power. The Buddha didn't see people as not existing so we have a problem here. > > Yet it may be more convincing to let they tell you in their own > words : > > "It is the dhammas alone that possess ultimate reality: > determinate existence 'from their own side' (sarupato) independent of > the mind's conceptual processing of the data". > > That's all I can explain, James. I have tried, but statistically > (through observation over the years) the chance to win your approval > is perhaps no better than that of winning a grand prize of the Texas > Lotto. ;-) James: LOL! Though I don't gush approval or hand out approval freely (which I consider very fake indeed), I wouldn't say I am that bad. ;-) > > Tep > === Metta, James #82341 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 2:51 pm Subject: Re: Cemetery contemplations and discursive thinking (was, Re: [dsg] Re: the p... TGrand458@... Hi Jon The Satipatthana Sutta specializes in the subject of mindfulness. So of course the bulk of it concerns direct awareness. However, even the Satipatthana Sutta has many instances of using inferential knowledge as insight fodder. I don't say mindfulness isn't important, I say its very important. But inferential knowledge and teachings are replete throughout the Suttas and are also very important. I read your post and didn't see anything I wanted to reply too. It seems to me you folks are looking at apples...and insisting they're oranges. Whatever. Here's another post I made regarding this issue in which I finally got Nina to basically agree that the passage, from the Satipattha Sutta, was dealing with inferential knowledge. Reposted here ....... Hi All MN 10 -- "In this way he abides contemplating body as a body internally, or he abides contemplating body as a body externally,.con (BB's note: -- MA: "Internally"(BB's note: -- MA: "Internally": con body. "Externally"body. "Externally": contemplating the breathing in occ another.) How does one abide contemplating body as a body "externally" through direct experience of such breathing? Rather, does this not involve conceptualization, projection, imagination, inference, etc.? TG #82342 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 12:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 2 nilovg Op 7-feb-2008, om 1:10 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Larry: The phrase is: "When it [the material body] is born thus its > causes (root-causes) are the four things, namely, ignorance, craving, > clinging, and kamma... the three beginning with ignorance are > decisive-support for this body, as the mother is for her infant, and > kamma begets it, as the father does the child..." > > If "ignorance, craving, and clinging" are mine, whose is "kamma"? > Could > "kamma" refer to kamma produced rupa? In that case, that would be mine > also. ---------- N: Past kamma produces ruupas of the body beginning at the moment of rebirth-consciousness. Where is the 'mine'? Nina. #82343 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? nilovg TG!!!!! Thank you for your hearty welcome. But, there is a BUT. Op 6-feb-2008, om 19:42 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina!!!!! > > You came through for me at last!!! Finally an admission of > "inferential > mental activities" as part of the Satipattha Sutta teachings! Now, > after you > admit to inferential knowledge, you do some interesting wiggling > that doesn't > make sense to me, but glad you're onboard the inferential knowledge > train. > ;-) > ------ > N: Perhaps inference is more like it. A similar situation: > contemplating the feelings and cittas externally; of someone else. Or > the body of someone else. > ................................................................. > > NEW TG: Yes, those as well. > ........................................................ > N: As I understood it: it is a reminder to be aware of one's 'own' > bodily phenomena. citta, feeling. One cannot be directly aware of > someone else's nama and rupa. > ............................................................ > > NEW TG: Of course one can't be directly aware of someone else's > nama and > rupa. That's the whole point! This passage is not about being > directly aware > of someone else's nama and rupa. Its about Its about using rational > thought, > reasoning, inference, yes concepts, to analyze the nature of "external > events." > > It is NOT A REMINDER. Where does the Buddha say this is a > reminder????? > No. The Buddha teaches this as instruction...of something to do. To > do what? > To contemplate external phenomena! And that can only be done through > inference! > ...................................................................... > ..... > > N: Kh Sujin said: don't you know it when someone else touches you? > There > is tangible object appearing and it can be object of mindfulness. > Coming back to seeing bones or corpses: it reminds us to be aware of > 'our bones' as only rupas. > ...................................................................... > > NEW TG: That seems to have nothing to do with the passage in > question. If > it meant to, then it is wild speculation. ------- N: Yes, it has everything to do with it. I wrote in my second post to you:< Kh Sujin said: then the thinking of someone else's sorrow reminds us to be aware of thinking. This is something I am forgetful of. I learn not to skip any opportunity for mindfulness. I find it helpful to remember this.> I think that this makes satipatthaana very daily. We are thinking of external phenomena all the time and also the (inferential) thinking is a nama, not self. Nothing is excluded from satipatthana. Instead of reminder we can also use the word exhortation, if you prefer it. Adding a point of interest as to exhortation. You said in another post (to Sukin?): ------ KS III, Middle Fifty, §101, adze handle. This is often quoted, demonstrating how slowly defilements are wearing away. It is explained that he should see the arising and ceasing of the five khandhas. He wishes for the freedom from the aasavas. Isn't this like the blow of a hammer? I just give this as an example of a strong exhortation to develop understanding of the five khandhas, nama and rupa, of this moment. And so it is with the cemetery contemplations. -------- Nina. #82344 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 1:23 am Subject: Re: the present moment sukinderpal Hi Robert, I started writing this early morning today, but had to leave before I was able to finish it. ================= > I apologize if you were offended or felt singled out by my comments. It > was not my intention to attack you. My post was offered simply as > something to consider and if you think there is no merit in what I say, > feel free to ignore it. No need to apologize, I did not feel singled out nor offended, just irritated in part influenced by my reactions to posts by others. Instead of being more sensitive, as I later got the impression about you, I was touchy. And I think on the whole, that response of mine might as well not have been written. Worse, I even went on to accuse you of being idealistic and such. :-/ But too late now, and I apologize for that. ================= > There is one thing you said I found surprising: > > Sukin: > Quite often when I come to note good behavior by other people, I am led > to feel, "how better they are than I am". I perceive in fact many to be > rather morally upright. However when it comes to "view", here the > situation becomes different and I am uncompromising. The apparent > good says nothing about the accumulated kilesas that lie dormant, and > therefore if they continued to hold their particular wrong view, what is > there to cheer about? > > So I tend to separate view from outward expressions of goodness. In > fact when I make my criticisms of those teachers, my aim is never the > `person', I can't be bothered with this, but rather it is always about > "view". As far as I'm concerned, your reason for coming to DSG should > be therefore not to judge others according to morality, let alone outer > behavior, but what is said with regard to the Dhamma. Besides one > behavior under one particular circumstance should not be taken to > represent the person's general behavior. > > Robert A: > I don't know, but personally, if I had to chose a measure of someone's > understanding, I would take the tenor of their day to day actions and > words over their erudite point/counterpoint on Dhamma any day. I should explain more: Yes, there must be changes in one's outlook on sila if there has been any understanding of the Dhamma. However this would not be something for someone else to judge nor should the person himself pay any particular attention to. Others will observe outward behavior with little or no regard to intention etc. Note also the story about Kali and her mistress. And the person himself will tend to be influenced by `self' concern. Given that the Dhamma is deep as it is, and `self view' influencing everything we aim for, if we are not careful enough then this `self' would likely influence any seeking to be moral. If we take no account of the state of mind, the attention paid will be wrongly placed on `conventional' situations and behavior. Whatever moral behavior that then arises, this will more often than not involve some kind of suppression or sublimation. I think it better not to focus on "result", but on the "cause". Results are usually thought of in terms of stories about "me" and the world out there. The cause must be rightly thought in terms of dhammas. When this is understood, the attention is drawn to the reality of the moment and more trust is thereby given to "understanding". In contrast, when we aim at result, not only are we being `selective', but we tend to also be fooled by `situations'. This does not mean that we do not talk about and encourage people, as you probably were doing, in terms of situations about all forms of kusala. Many of these are in fact based on the perception of people and living beings. So it is good to talk about metta, karuna, dana etc, as much as possible and one should rejoice in any person's good deeds. However, given the danger of self view and the cheating dhammas, none of these should ever be encouraged at the expense of the development of wisdom. And when we are rightly focused on the `cause', one should then go away with confidence in the power of understanding as being in fact a support for all kinds of kusala to develop and increase. And though this would likely not be so apparent, still this is better than following otherwise, "illusions of result". =============== > But as Sarah wisely pointed out, it is not my place to judge others by > any measure, and if I have fallen into that with these posting, I am sorry > for that. Sukin: It is I who was wrong to have judged you. Sorry about that. Metta, Sukin. #82345 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 1:30 am Subject: 'Dhammas as realities' (was, Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment) jonoabb Hi TG There's another point that you've thrown out a number of times recently: the question of "seeing dhammas as realities". For example, in your post to Sukin you say: > Please note the way the Buddha asks us to "see" the aggregates..Please not > once does he say we need to see them as realities. Please show me a Sutta > quote > where the Buddha says we need to see the aggregates or elements are > "realities with their own characteristics."realities with their own > characteristics. > Note: please use an actual Sutta quote and not an interpretation by someone > else. I'm sure you realise that "realities" is just a translation of the term "dhammas". So if someone here talks about seeing dhammas as realities, they may be taken to mean seeing dhammas as dhammas, or seeing dhammas as they are in truth and reality. Leaving aside the vexed issue of "own characteristic" for a moment, part of seeing dhammas as they truly are is seeing the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta that inhere in each dhamma. Those 3 characteristics are characteristics of dhammas; anything that exhibits those 3 characteristics can be called a dhamma. In the terminology of the teachings, seeing consciousness, eye base, visible object and feeling are all examples of dhammas; on the other hand, there is no such dhamma as table or computer. Jon #82346 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 2:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy jonoabb Hi Mike (with apologies for the delay) m. nease wrote: > "...in the case of the kusala mental factors the most important of these > is the level to which that mental factor had been accumulated prior to > our birth in this present lifetime." > > This seems new to me--can you please refer me to a source text? > I know of no quote in as many words. I was really surmising from "first principles", namely, that the development of panna occurs only when previously developed panna (re-)arises, and so the stronger the present accumulated tendency of panna, the better the chance of such (re-)arising. However, the general idea is mentioned in the commentary to the verse from SN that is the text on which the Visuddhimagga is based. As you'll recall, that verse reads: ‘When a wise man, established well in Virtue, ‘Develops Consciousness and Understanding, ‘Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious ‘He succeeds in disentangling this tangle’. I quote some of the commentary given in Ch. I of The Path of Purification at paras 7 and 8 (the bits within square brackets are added by me]: ********************************************* 1. For understanding is mentioned three times [i.e., "wise man", "Understanding" and "sagacious"]. 2. Herein, the first [wisdom] is native understanding, the second [understanding] is understanding consisting in insight, while the third [sagacity] is the protective understanding that guides all affairs. 3. "Wise": possessing the kind of understanding that is born of kamma by means of a rebirth-linking with triple root-cause. "Develops Consciousness and Understanding": develops both concentration and insight. For it is concentration that is described here under the heading of ‘consciousness’, and insight under that of ‘understanding’. "Sagacious": it is understanding that is called ‘sagacity’; possessing that, is the meaning. This word shows protective understanding. 4. Just as a man standing on the ground and taking up a well-sharpened knife might disentangle a great tangle of bamboos, so too, he—this bhikkhu who possesses the six things, namely, this virtue, and this concentration described under the heading of consciousness, and this threefold understanding, and this ardour--, standing on the ground of virtue and taking up with the hand of protective-understanding well-sharpened on the stone of concentration, might disentangle, cut away and demolish all the tangle of craving that had overgrown his own life’s continuity. 5. Herein there is nothing for him to do about the [native] understanding on account of which he is called wise; for that has been established in him simply by the influence of previous kamma. 6. But the words ardent and sagacious mean that by persevering with energy of the kind here described and by acting in full awareness with understanding he should, acting in full awareness with understanding he should, having become well established in virtue, develop the serenity and insight that are described as Concentration and Understanding. ********************************************* Jon #82347 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 2:51 am Subject: Perfections Corner (85) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) We read further on in the Sutta: “At that time there was a young man of family called Pukkusaati who had gone forth from home into homelessness through faith in the Lord. He was the person who had arrived first at that potter’s dwelling. Then the Lord approached the venerable Pukkusaati: ‘If it is not inconvenient to you, monk, I will spend a night in this dwelling.’ ‘Spacious, friend, is the potter’s dwelling; let the venerable one stay according to his pleasure.’ ” We read in the Commentary to this Sutta: “King Pukkusaati reigned over his kingdom in the city of Takkasilaa and King Bimbisaara reigned over his kingdom in the city of Rajagaaha, and they were of the same age. Between them there was a deep bond of affection, although they had never seen each other. Their friendship was established by means of the merchants who travelled between their two countries for the purpose of trade. King Bimbisaara received from King Pukkusaati as a gift eight precious garments, of which he offered four to the Exalted one and kept four for his own use in his palace. To him the following thought occurred: ‘When I shall send a present in return it should be better than the one King Pukkusaati has sent to me before. My friend sent me a priceless present, and what should I send to him? In the city of Raajagaha not any object more precious than that is to be found.’ King Bimbisaara had excellent qualities and also, since the time he had become a sotaapanna, nothing else but the Triple Gem could arouse joy. He uttered his wish to select the ‘Gems’ he would offer as a present to King Pukkusaati. Usually there are two kinds of jewels. [1] The jewel without consciousness is gold, silver, etc. The jewel with consciousness is bound up with the faculties. [2] The jewels without consciousness are used for decoration of those with consciousness. Of these two kinds of jewels, the jewel with consciousness is accounted the foremost. The Jewel with consciousness is twofold as the animal jewel and the human jewel. The animal Jewel which includes the Elephant-Jewel and the Horse-Jewel is used for the conveyance of humans. Therefore, the human Jewel is accounted the foremost. The human jewel is twofold as the woman jewel and the man jewel. The woman jewel performs service for the Wheel-Turning Monarch. [3] Therefore, the man jewel is accounted the foremost of these two jewels. The man jewel is twofold as the house-living jewel and the homeless jewel. A Wheel-turning Monarch is the foremost among the house-living jewels, but since he pays homage with the fivefold prostration even to a novice (såmaùera) who has gone forth on that day, the homeless jewel is accounted the foremost. The homeless jewel is twofold as the “learner” and the “non-learner”. [4] Of the two homeless jewels the value of the jewels of even hundred thousand learners does not equal the value of the jewel of one non-learner, and therefore, the non-learner is accounted the foremost.” -------------------- Note [1] See also the Commentary to the “Minor Readings”, the “Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning”, Ch VI, The Jewel Discourse. Note [2] Living beings with faculties, indriyas, such as eye sense, etc. Note [3] A Universal King ruling over the four continents, who possesses the jewels of the wheel, the elephant, the horse, the gem, the woman, the treasurer and the advisor. Note [4] The sekkha, learner, has attained enlightenment but not to the degree of arahatship, whereas the asekkha, non-learner, has attained arahatship. -------------------- Han: The sutta referred to here is MN 140 Dhaatu-vibhanga Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html I do not understand how MN 140 is relevant to the perfection of patience. The lengthy quotes from the Commentary of the sutta also seem to be unnecessary for purpose of perfection of patience. But since these are in the book please bear with me. I have to present all of them. To be continued. Han #82348 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 3:09 am Subject: Patthaana (2) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of the Foreward by Ashin Thitzana to the book titled “Patthaana.” -------------------- Simply put, Patthaana can also be said as Buddha’s relativity theory as it expounds the interactive correlationship of mind and matter which manifests itself within the natural framework of cause and effect. In addition to being such a profound teaching, Patthaana holds a special place in all teachings of Buddha as it is like a showcase of an astounding intellectual work of a super-genius. This is one of the reasons why it is deeply admired and highly revered by not only human beings but also heavenly beings. This is one important reason why the Patthaana texts are studied and recited with much respect and devotion among many people in the Buddhist communities. According to historical records in Buddhist texts, Buddha has spent seven consecutive weeks after having achieved perfect enlightenment and Buddhahood, enjoying Nibbanic bliss while entering the state of Vimutti-sukha. It was during His fourth week that he began reflecting on the Abhidhamma which comprises seven texts, namely: Dhammasanganii (the Compendium of Abhidhamma), Vibhanga (the Book of Analysis), Dhaatukathaa (the Book of Elements), Puggalapa~n~natti (the Book of teachings on the various Personality Analysis), Kathaavatthu (Points of Controversy), Yamaka (Book of Pairs), and Patthaana (Book of Conditional Relations). As a matter of historically recorded fact, it can be aptly said that the most advanced physio-psychological teaching of Lord Buddha, which we used to refer to as “Abhidhamma” begins right after Buddha’s enlightenment. It is only when He began reflecting on the profound aspects of inter-related cosmic nature as described in the Patthaana that six colourful spectrum of extremely brilliant rays, much brighter than the light of heavenly angels, were emanated and emitted from his body. Those brilliant rays, according to commentaries, still continue to disperse and scatter to all directions across endless world systems in the infinite space. Patthaana is sometimes metaphorically equated to great ocean whose depth and breadth can only be thoroughly fathomable by the Omniscient Buddha. However, for an ordinary person with a considerable amount of Abhidhamma knowledge, it is still possible to gain some understanding of the whole teaching. Studying Patthaana is a very wonderful experience. The more you understand it, the more amazed you will become at such a marvelously expounded teaching of the Buddha. -------------------- To be continued. Han #82349 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 3:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness .. developed body .. sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Howard, Nina & Phil), --- Tep Sastri wrote: > I have just one question. > > >Sarah(quoting MN 36): > > > "When that pleasant feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his > mind and remain because body is developed". > > T: What do you think "body is developed" means? .... S: You may not have seen the commentary note I added: "MA explains that "development of body" here is insight, and "development of mind" concentration. When the noble disciple experiences pleasant feeling, he does not become overwhelmed by it because, through his development of insight, he understands the feeling to be impermanent, unsatisfactory, and essenceless; and when he experiences painful feeling, he does not become overwhelemed by it because, through his development of concentration, he is able to escape from it by entering into one of the meditative absorptions." There may be more to discuss here... I Also, later in the sutta (MN36), we read about those 'who live bodily and mentally withdrawn from sensual pleasures...'. More to consider here perhaps? How do you understand the phrase and the connection with the above? Metta, Sarah ========== #82350 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 4:54 am Subject: Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 4 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 4. Purification by Overcoming Doubt Chapter XIX 1 I. Introductory 2 II. Ways of discerning cause and condition 3 1. Mentality-materiality is neither causeless nor created by a Maker 5 2. Its occurrence is always due to conditions 7 3. General and particular conditions ***** [General and Particular Conditions] 7. Another sees the condition for mentality as twofold, according to what is common to all and to what is not common to all, and that for materiality as fourfold, according to kamma, and so on. 8. The condition for mentality is twofold, as that which is common to all and that which is not common to all. Herein, the six doors beginning with the eye and the six objects beginning with visible data are a condition-common-to-all for mentality because the occurrence of all kinds [of mentality] classed as profitable, etc., is due to that [condition]. But attention, etc., are not common to all; for wise attention, hearing the Good Dhamma, etc., are a condition only for the profitable, [600] while the opposite kinds are a condition for the unprofitable. Kamma, etc., are a condition for the resultant mentality; and the life-continuum, etc., are a condition for the functional. ... S: Simply, some conditions apply to the arising of all namas and some apply only to particular namas. .... 9. Kamma, consciousness, temperature, and nutriment, constitute this fourfold condition for materiality beginning with kamma. Herein it is only when it is past that kamma is a condition for kamma-originated materiality; consciousness is a condition, when it is arising, for consciousness-originated materiality. Temperature and nutriment are conditions at the instant (moment) of their presence for temperature-originated and nutriment-originated materiality. This is how one man discerns the conditions for mentality-materiality. .... S: All rupas arise as a result of one of these four conditions. .... 10. When he has seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality is due to conditions in this way, he sees also that, as now, so too in the past its occurrence was due to conditions, and in the future its occurrence will be due to conditions. When he sees it in this way, his uncertainty about the three periods of time is abandoned in the way already stated. .... S: Through understanding the conditioned nature of dhammas, there are no more doubts about past and future dhammas. There are no more doubts about rebirths. There is no questioning about whether they are an integral part of the Buddha's teaching. Just as dhammas arise and fall away now by conditions, so they did in the past and so they will continue to do so in future while there are such conditions, beginning with ignorance. Metta, Sarah ======== #82351 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 5:06 am Subject: The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) buddhatrue Hi Robert (and Han), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: You and the others are quite right that no one should > judge others and particularly not judge their attainment or lack of > attainment, but I am afraid we do need to make these judgements to > some extent because I believe the Buddha gave great importance to > who you hang out with as either supporting or retarding your progress > on the Path. So, you have to understand how your associations work on > your states of mind and make it more conducive to, for example, calm > and clear seeing, or agitation and confusion. > > This was the point I was trying to make in my original postings. I was > trying to say that there are many good and useful things at DSG, but > that I need to look carefully at how visiting here works on the state of > my mind, and I am afraid on balance I cannot say it is positive. James: I have been reflecting on this post for a while and I wanted to offer some input. (But maybe you should take everything I say with a grain of salt because, as everyone knows, I come from a dysfunctional family ;-)). DSG should not be viewed as a "Sangha" or as a place to go to learn the Dhamma. It also shouldn't be viewed as a place where one receives inspiration to practice the Dhamma. It is just a place to exchange, or bounce around, ideas about the Dhamma. Householders should learn the Dhamma and receive inspiration from monks/nuns, not other householders. This is what the Buddha taught- and for good reason. The role of householders is to support monks/nuns and learn the Dhamma from them; the role of monks/nuns is to teach the Dhamma and to inspire householders to practice in accordance with the Dhamma. When householders look to other householders for learning the Dhamma, there are going to be many problems and distortions. And when monks/nuns look to householders to learn the Dhamma, that is just really wrong! However, if householders look at other householders as just fellow friends to bounce ideas off of, then there won't be as many problems.* If you don't live in an area where you can have contact with Buddhist monks or nuns, you should try to relocate to such an area. I cannot emphasize strongly enough how this will improve your practice! If that isn't possible, then learn the Dhamma from articles and books written by monks and nuns (not householders!). Translations of the Nikayas by Bhikkhu Bodhi (a monk) are quite essential. Probably the most emotionally balanced member of this group is Han, and that is because (I believe) he has the most direct contact with monks/nuns. There is just something about this contact with monks/nuns which cannot be substituted with. (Perhaps Han will attest to this??). Metta, James * There is an except to this general rule with Citta the householder, who taught the Dhamma to monks/nuns and other householders. However, Citta didn't start doing this until he reached the level of non-return (and he reached this level through the teaching and assistance of a monk). Additionally, Citta predominately taught other householders to respect monks and practice generosity with monks, he didn't create his own "Householder Sangha" away from monks/nuns. #82352 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 5:16 am Subject: Vism.XVII,237 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.682 Since here one blissful feeling as result Is meant, of craving it is just one cause. "Just one" - that is, through just the cause of sufficing condition. #82353 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 12:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Tep) - In a message dated 2/6/2008 10:48:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > I believe they (the two bhikkhu authors) conclude that although > things and people are real in the worldly sense, they are not reality > in the ultimate --or pure-- sense of the dhammas. And that is a very > good answer to your question to Nina (in my humble opinion) ! James: I don't really see how that is an answer. The K. Sujin quote wrote that metta is to see all people as friends; I asked how that is to be possible if people don't really exist. That would mean that metta needs to be unwise and delusional- which we should know isn't true since the Buddha possessed metta of great power. The Buddha didn't see people as not existing so we have a problem here. > > Yet it may be more convincing to let they tell you in their own > words : > > "It is the dhammas alone that possess ultimate reality: > determinate existence 'from their own side' (sarupato) independent of > the mind's conceptual processing of the data". > > That's all I can explain, James. I have tried, but statistically > (through observation over the years) the chance to win your approval > is perhaps no better than that of winning a grand prize of the Texas > Lotto. ;-) James: LOL! Though I don't gush approval or hand out approval freely (which I consider very fake indeed), I wouldn't say I am that bad. ;-) > > Tep > === Metta, James ================================== Here's my two cents: People, and animals, and sentient beings in general are all "real enough" - whatever 'real' actually means, and it is certainly towards them that metta is directed, not towards single namas or rupas. They are real aggregations - integrated, dynamic aggregates of phenomena held together by "kammic glue." Conceptuality enters in when we think and speak of these aggregations (people, animals, trees, tables, etc) as if they were single phenomena. There need be no harm in doing so, and, in fact, language demands it. Error enters in when people, and aggregations in general, are not just referred to (in thought and speech) as individuals, but when they are reified, being actually sensed as or even believed to be single phenomena rather than aggregations of phenomena, or aggregations that have some core of self-existence that is "the personal self". (All but arahants *sense* aggregations as single phenomena or as having self, and all but ariyans hold this as *belief*.) With metta, Howard #82354 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 5:16 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 36 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 502. "Sara kaa.nakacchapa.m pubbasamudde, aparato ca yugachidda.m; sira.m tassa ca pa.timukka.m, manussalaabhamhi opamma.m. 500. "Remember the blind turtle and the [turtle] putting its head through [it] as a comparison with the obtaining of human birth. Sara kaa.nakacchapanti ubhayakkhikaa.na.m kacchapa.m anussara. Pubbasamudde aparato ca yugachiddanti puratthimasamudde aparato ca pacchimuttaradakkhi.nasamudde vaatavegena paribbhamantassa yugassa ekacchidda.m. Sira.m tassa ca pa.timukkanti kaa.nakacchapassa siisa.m tassa ca vassasatassa vassasatassa accayena giiva.m ukkhipantassa siisassa yugacchidde pavesana~nca sara. Manussalaabhamhi opammanti tayida.m sabbampi buddhuppaadadhammadesanaasu viya manussattalaabhe opamma.m katvaa pa~n~naaya sara, tassa atiiva dullabhasabhaavatta.m saarajjabhayassaapi aticcasabhaavattaa. Vutta~nheta.m- "seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, puriso mahaasamudde ekacchigga.lha.m yuga.m pakkhipeyyaa"ti-aadi (ma. ni. 3.252; sa.m. ni. 5.1117). 500. Remember (sara) the blind turtle (kaa.na-kacchapa.m) means: remember (anusara) the turtle (kacchapa.m) that is blind in botrh eyes (ubhay'-akkhi-kaa.na.m). And the hole in the yoke (yuga-chidda.m) in the eastern sea (pubba-samudde) and [its going] to the west means: the single hone in the yoke (yugassa eka-cchidda.m) that is wandering around due to the force of the wind in the eastern sea (puratthima-samudde), and to the west, [and] in the western, northern, and southern seas (pacchim'-uttara-dakkhi.na-samudde).* And the [turtle] putting (pa.timukka.m) its head through [it] means: and remember its head, the blind turtle's, and its putting (pavesana.m) its head in the hole of the yoke when it lifted its neck at the end of every hundred years. As a comparison with the obtaining of human birth (manussa-laabhamhi) means: making a comparison of obtaining human existence (manu-ssatta-laabhi) for all of this, such as the arising of a Buddha and [hearing] the teaching of the Doctrine, remember through your wisdom the exceedingly difficult nature of that, even for one who by nature has overcome timidity and fear. For it is said, "Suppose, bhikkhus, a man wer to throw a yoke with one hole in it into the great sea," etc. [M III 169, S V 455]. *KRN (Poems) translates "Remember the blind turtle in the easter sea and the hole in the yoke to the west," but the cardinal points are only mentioned in relation to the yoke in the discourses (M III 169 [MLDB 1020], S V 457 [KS V 384]. 503. "Sara ruupa.m phe.napi.n.dopamassa, kaayakalino asaarassa; khandhe passa anicce, saraahi niraye bahuvighaate. 501. "Remember the form of this worst of bodies, unsubstantial, like a lump of foam. See the aggregates as impermanent. Remember the hells, giving much distress. Sara ruupa.m phe.napi.n.dopamassaati vimaddaasahanato phe.napi.n.dasadisassa anekaanatthasannipaatato kaayasa"nkhaatassa kalino, niccasaaraadivirahena asaarassa ruupa.m asuciduggandha.m jegucchapa.tikkuulabhaava.m sara. Khandhe passa anicceti pa~ncapi upaadaanakkhandhe hutvaa abhaava.t.thena anicce passa ~naa.nacakkhunaa olokehi. Saraahi niraye bahuvighaateti a.t.tha mahaaniraye so.lasa-ussadaniraye ca bahuvighaate bahudukkhe mahaadukkhe ca anussara. 501. Remember the form [that is] like a lump of foam (phe.na-pi.n.dopamassa) means: remember the form that is by nature disagreeable and disgusting, evil smelling and unclean, unsubstantial because of the absence of a permanent core, the unfortunate thing called the body because of the assembling together of many useless things like a lump of foam (phe.napi.n.da-sadisassa) through not enduring being crushed. See the aggregates (khandhe) as impermanent means: see, observe with the eye of knowledge, as impermanent because of the non-existence of the five aggregates of clinging (upaadaana-kkhandhe) [after they] have occurred. Remember (saraahi) the hells (niraye), giving much distress means: remember (anussara) the eight great hells and the sixteen crowded hells,* giving much distress, much pain and great pain.** *So.lasa-ussadaniraye. CPD translates ussada-niraya "a supplementary hell." See, however, Pv-a 220, v.8, and the commentary Pv-a 221 (PS 233). **The eight great hells are named in Ja V 266 (JS V 137). The sixteen crowded hells are mentioned but not named. For an extended discussion of the hells mentioned in Paali texts, see Encyclopaedia of Buddhism V sv "Heaven and Hell" (especially pp. 428f). .. to be continued, connie #82355 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 5:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi Tep (and James) Thanks for the interesting quote from the introduction to CMA. I think the observations made there are indeed pertinent to James' question to Nina ("I thought there were no people, only dhammas?") Tep Sastri wrote: > First, let me summarize what Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi > essentially say in the quote. > > 1. The Abhidhamma perspective on the nature of realities is based on > the "dhammas" that are the fundamental components of actuality. > 2. The real world of objects and "persons" (or people) is > a "conceptual construct" or "derivative" made by the mind out of the > dhammas. > > ... > > Yet it may be more convincing to let they tell you in their own > words : > > "It is the dhammas alone that possess ultimate reality: > determinate existence 'from their own side' (sarupato) independent of > the mind's conceptual processing of the data". > The question raised by James is this (I think): If the object of metta, even for an arahant (who has no wrong view or ignorance), is a person and not a paramattha dhamma, does this not mean that a person must be real? The answer lies in the general area of the passage you quote from above. In the ultimate sense, what we take for a person is a particular stream of consciousness, namely bhavanga cittas that (in the sense-spheres) are interrupted by sense-door and mind-door processes. Each such stream of cittas is unique and separate from any other stream of cittas. Thus although the arahant conceptualises in terms of a person (as he also does in terms of places and things), there is no mis-taking the conceptualised person as being, in the ultimate sense, anything other than a stream of cittas (and associated rupas). It is worth noting that while each citta arising in a stream is conditioned by the falling away of its predecessor, the same cannot be said for the rupas that are taken as the being's body. So, as the passage from CMA says, in the ultimate sense no beings, only dhammas. Well chosen! Jon #82356 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 6:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) hantun1 Dear James (and Robert), > James: Probably the most emotionally balanced member of this group is Han, and that is because (I believe) he has the most direct contact with monks/nuns. There is just something about this contact with monks/nuns which cannot be substituted with. (Perhaps Han will attest to this??). Han: Thank you, James. I do not know whether I am the most emotionally balanced, but I try to have equanimity towards everything, to the extent possible. As regards direct contact with monks, every Buddhist in Burma gets their dhamma teachings from the monks. Getting a dhamma teaching from another lay person is extremely rare, the only exception that I notice is some Abhidhamma courses for lay persons run by lay teachers (who got their training from senior monks themselves!). Even in that area, the monks will get Abhidhamma teaching from senior monks, and not from lay teachers. For me, as I am staying in Bangkok I do not have much direct contact, but I have more than 500 cassette tapes by senior Sayadaws, and so I feel that I have direct contact with the senior monks all the time. Respectfully, Han #82357 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 6:28 am Subject: The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) scottduncan2 Dear James, Just a few points regarding: J : "Householders should learn the Dhamma and receive inspiration from monks/nuns, not other householders... the role of monks/nuns is to teach the Dhamma and to inspire householders to practice in accordance with the Dhamma." Scott: With respect, monks are not automatically infallible. Going forth does not automatically endow some sort of special quality that then makes one's words somehow worth learning from. This sort of thing, I think, is what leads to the formation of Personality Cults. Respecting the Sangha does not mean worshipping monks and nuns. If I were to go forth today, no one should suddenly start listening to me any more than they do now. I have nothing to teach today. If I go forth tomorrow, I will still have nothing to teach. What do you think it is, then, that would make a monk, or anyone, a Good Teacher? This goes back to our discussion on teachers. No need to reply if you feel our views on this diverge so much as to render the discussion painful. Sincerely, Scott. #82358 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > ... > Conceptuality enters in when we think and speak of these aggregations > (people, animals, trees, tables, etc) as if they were single phenomena. There > need be no harm in doing so, and, in fact, language demands it. Error enters > in when people, and aggregations in general, are not just referred to (in > thought and speech) as individuals, but when they are reified, being actually > sensed as or even believed to be single phenomena rather than aggregations of > phenomena, or aggregations that have some core of self-existence that is "the > personal self". (All but arahants *sense* aggregations as single phenomena or > as having self, and all but ariyans hold this as *belief*.) > We not only posted at the same time on this thread, but I think we are saying much the same thing! Jon #82359 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 6:40 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 3, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the Commentary to the Mahåparinibbånasutta: “Such and such is síla (virtue), meaning, it is indeed síla, síla to that extent; here it is síla which are the four purities of síla. Samådhi is concentration. Wisdom should be understood as insight wisdom (vipassanå). As to the words, when it is fully developed by síla, this means, when he has abided in that síla etc., these produce concentration accompanying the path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness; when this is fully developed by that síla it is of great fruit and of great benefit. When he has abided in this concentration, they produce wisdom accompanying the path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness, and this, when it is fully developed by this concentration, is of great fruit, of great benefit. When he has abided in this wisdom, they produce the path- consciousness and fruition-consciousness, and thus when it is fully developed by this (wisdom) he is completely freed from the intoxicants.” Thus, when we read about full development this pertains to lokuttara cittas arising at the different stages of enlightenment. The “Visuddhimagga”, in the Chapter on Virtue, Síla, gives the following fourfold classification of purity of síla (pårisuddhi síla): “the restraint of “Påìimokkha” including 227 rules of discipline for the monk, the restraint of the sense faculties (indriya saóvara síla), the purity of livelihood (åjíva pårisuddhi síla), the use of the four requisites of robe, dwelling, food and medicines, that is purified by reflection (paccaya sannissita síla).” As regards restraint of the sense faculties, there are different levels of restraint. We read in the “Middle Length Sayings” (no. 27, Lesser Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant’s Footprint) that the Buddha spoke to the brahman Jånussoni about the monk who has restraint as to the sense-faculties: “... Having seen visible object with the eye he is not entranced by the general appearance, he is not entranced by the detail. If he dwells with this organ of sight uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil unskilled states of mind, might predominate. So he fares along controlling it; he guards the organ of sight, he comes to control over the organ of sight....” ****** Nina. #82360 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/7/2008 9:33:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > ... > Conceptuality enters in when we think and speak of these aggregations > (people, animals, trees, tables, etc) as if they were single phenomena. There > need be no harm in doing so, and, in fact, language demands it. Error enters > in when people, and aggregations in general, are not just referred to (in > thought and speech) as individuals, but when they are reified, being actually > sensed as or even believed to be single phenomena rather than aggregations of > phenomena, or aggregations that have some core of self-existence that is "the > personal self". (All but arahants *sense* aggregations as single phenomena or > as having self, and all but ariyans hold this as *belief*.) > We not only posted at the same time on this thread, but I think we are saying much the same thing! Jon ================================ Jon, were I a believer in the (Judaic first or Christian second) coming of the Messiah, I'd say "Hallelujah, praise G-D!" ;-)) With metta, Howard #82361 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 6:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment nilovg Dear Sukin, Perhaps several people here may not know about the post on cheating dhammas. Perhaps you could elaborate? The subject is very beneficial, and it also touches on fake metta. Nina. Op 7-feb-2008, om 10:23 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: > So it is good to talk about metta, karuna, dana > etc, as much as possible and one should rejoice in any person's good > deeds. However, given the danger of self view and the cheating > dhammas, none of these should ever be encouraged at the expense of the > development of wisdom. #82362 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 7:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ================================== > Here's my two cents: People, and animals, and sentient beings in general > are all "real enough" - whatever 'real' actually means, and it is certainly > towards them that metta is directed, not towards single namas or rupas. They > are real aggregations - integrated, dynamic aggregates of phenomena held > together by "kammic glue." James: I have no problem with this description. > Conceptuality enters in when we think and speak of these aggregations > (people, animals, trees, tables, etc) as if they were single phenomena. There > need be no harm in doing so, and, in fact, language demands it. Error enters > in when people, and aggregations in general, are not just referred to (in > thought and speech) as individuals, but when they are reified, being actually > sensed as or even believed to be single phenomena rather than aggregations of > phenomena, or aggregations that have some core of self-existence that is "the > personal self". James: Okay, here is where I have some misgivings. According to the Abhidhamma, people cannot be sensed as single phenomena, only as individual namas and rupas. However, psychic power can be developed to sense people as single phenomena. One could develop the power to know one's mind as "a mind filled with lust" or a "mind filled with equanimity", etc. This is seeing many parts as a single whole, at the same time. Additionally, some can develop the ability to know where an individual has been reborn (or prior existences), this is also seeing many parts (the five aggregates) as a single phenomenon. Metta, James #82363 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 7:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 4 nilovg Dear Sarah, > Just picking out a little gem. Op 7-feb-2008, om 13:54 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > But attention, etc., are not common to all; for wise attention, > hearing > the Good Dhamma, etc., are a condition only for the profitable, > ------- > N: One can only really listen to the Dhamma when the citta is > kusala with sati. This is not common to all cittas, and this shows > that really listening with wise attention is rare. I heard on tape: Someone asked: how can we listen in order to understand more? Kh Sujin asked : when we listen, to what extent do we understand already? She said that one should not hurry in trying to understand a great deal and to realize the truth directly. < If there is no sati, we listen but do not understand what we hear. There can be sati of the level of listening and then sati can grow when we listen again and again. Sati can be aware of paramattha dhammas.> ------ As to the words: Citta is strong at the moment of arising and can then produce rupas. Temperature and nutrition are rupas and these are weak at their arising moment, they can only produce other rupas at the moments of their presence, after they have arisen. -------- Nina. #82364 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 7:49 am Subject: The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) buddhatrue Hi Scott, This is a touchy subject, but those seem to be my specialty! ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Scott: With respect, monks are not automatically infallible. Going > forth does not automatically endow some sort of special quality that > then makes one's words somehow worth learning from. James: This is not true. It does. A monk is not just someone in a different costume; a monk is an entirely different person (or should be). The main trouble I had with Ven. P is that he didn't see himself as any different from laypeople. Ven. P is dead wrong about that. This sort of > thing, I think, is what leads to the formation of Personality Cults. > Respecting the Sangha does not mean worshipping monks and nuns. James: Being a Buddhist means accepting the Triple Gem: the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. All three, equally. I'm not sure what you mean by "worshipping", do you mean faith, saddha? > > If I were to go forth today, no one should suddenly start listening to > me any more than they do now. I have nothing to teach today. If I go > forth tomorrow, I will still have nothing to teach. James: Again, this is not true. If you go forth, then you have renounced the world and dedicated yourself to Dhamma practice. This changes your viewpoint and the person that you are. It's not just about shaving your head and putting on a robe- there is an inner change. > > What do you think it is, then, that would make a monk, or anyone, a > Good Teacher? James: Scott, I don't think I could answer this for you because you don't seem to believe in "teachers". Perhaps you are the lone wolf type and will become a silent Buddha in the future?? Who knows. This goes back to our discussion on teachers. No need > to reply if you feel our views on this diverge so much as to render > the discussion painful. James: It will only get painful if it gets ugly. I am just presenting my opinion- take it or leave it. Metta, James #82365 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 9:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > We not only posted at the same time on this thread, but I think we are > saying much the same thing! Yeah, I wrote back to Howard so you can consider it a post to you as well- if you would like to comment. Metta, James #82366 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 11:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (85) nilovg Dear Han, Op 7-feb-2008, om 11:51 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I do not understand how MN 140 is relevant to the > perfection of patience. The lengthy quotes from the > Commentary of the sutta also seem to be unnecessary > for purpose of perfection of patience. But since these > are in the book please bear with me. I have to present > all of them. ----------- N: I find the whole account very touching and beautiful. Later on you will read about the patience of Pukkusaati who was used to delicate food, but took any food when he was a recluse. The Patience of the Buddha who took all the trouble seeking Pukkusaati who was ripe for enlightenment. All the details are wonderful. The great rapture of Puukusaati when he first began to read the scrolls. He was so full of rapture that he had to sit down to recover. Then went on reading. So full of saddhaa. Lodewijk loves the story. When you find some passages, like the one on the Jewels, long, well, it takes patience to read on. Nina. #82367 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (85) hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: I find the whole account very touching and beautiful. Later on you will read about the patience of Pukkusaati who was used to delicate food, but took any food when he was a recluse. The Patience of the Buddha who took all the trouble seeking Pukkusaati who was ripe for enlightenment. All the details are wonderful. The great rapture of Puukusaati when he first began to read the scrolls. He was so full of rapture that he had to sit down to recover. Then went on reading. So full of saddhaa. Lodewijk loves the story.When you find some passages, like the one on the Jewels, long, well, it takes patience to read on. ---------- Han: Thank you, Nina, for your kind explanation. I will read on and continue presenting with ‘patience.’ And I think I will begin to love the story, and see the perfection of patience of the Buddha and Pukkusaati. My kind regards to Lodewijk. Respectfully, Han #82368 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 12:41 pm Subject: Noble 4-fold Awareness! bhikkhu0 Friends: How to be Released into the very End of Suffering? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, these Four Foundations of Awareness, when firmly established by development and cultivation, are both Noble and Liberating! They lead one out into the complete elimination of all Suffering. What four? Here, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu lives & dwells, aware & clearly comprehending, while continuously contemplating & reflecting upon: 1: The Body merely as a decaying & ownerless Formation.. 2: The Feelings just as conditioned Responses fading away.. 3: The Thoughts only as a set of banal ingrained Mentalities.. 4: Any Phenomenon simply as a constructed mental Appearance.. Thereby removing yearning, urge, envy & frustration rooted in this world.. These Four Foundations of Awareness, Bhikkhus, when firmly established by development and cultivation, are both Noble and Releasing! They guide one to the Exit, to the Escape by an absolute destruction of all Suffering! Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 166-7] 47 The Foundations of Awareness: 17 Noble... <....> Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #82369 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 2 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Larry: "If "ignorance, craving, and clinging" are mine, whose is "kamma"? Could "kamma" refer to kamma produced rupa? In that case, that would be mine also." Nina: "Past kamma produces ruupas of the body beginning at the moment of rebirth-consciousness. Where is the 'mine'?" Larry: A figure of speech to differentiate my kamma from my parents' kamma which played no small part in the conditioned arising of "this body". I'm still not 100% sure what the word "kamma", above, refers to, since ignorance, craving, and clinging do produce rupa, don't they? Larry #82370 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 4:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 4 lbidd2 Hi Sarah, 19.8 "...Herein, the six doors beginning with the eye and the six objects beginning with visible data are a condition-common-to-all for mentality because the occurrence of all kinds [of mentality] classed as profitable, etc., is due to that [condition]." I assume object is object condition, but what kind of condition is base (door)? Larry #82371 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 6:00 pm Subject: Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. dhammanusara Hi James (Nina, Howard, Jon, Han, Sarah), - I was trying to answer your question to Nina [James: "I thought there were no people, only dhammas?"], using the idea in CMA as guidelines. > >Tep: I believe they (the two bhikkhu authors) conclude that although things and people are real in the worldly sense, they are not reality in the ultimate --or pure-- sense of the dhammas. And that is a very good answer to your question to Nina (in my humble opinion) ! .............. T: I thought that was "good enough", but you wrote back as follows: >James: I don't really see how that is an answer. The K. Sujin quote wrote that metta is to see all people as friends; I asked how that is to be possible if people don't really exist. That would mean that metta needs to be unwise and delusional- which we should know isn't true since the Buddha possessed metta of great power. The Buddha didn't see people as not existing so we have a problem here. T: Yeah, you've got a valid point about metta that, on first thought, seems contradictory to the Abhidhamma's "dhamma theory". Yes, it is true that metta bhavana is very fundamental of the Teachings and it is very powerful, and that Buddhas and arahants "possessed metta of great power". Yes, it is true that the Buddha did not see lay people, bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, and other beings ("satta" that include devas and brahmas) as not existing; otherwise, there would be no Teachings and there would be no ariya savakas as the consequence. Since they existed and the Buddha existed, so He could teach them to gain Release from the Samsara through eradication of craving(tanha), self views(attanuditthi) and conceit(mana). But there is no Release (unbinding, nibbana) in people who cannot let go of tanha and ditthi(wrong view) that whispers: 'This is mine; that is what I am (existing as a person); that is my self '. That view is an attachment to the world of people and one's ego -- and that's why it is wrong in the ariya sense. To gain Release one has to change his perspective about the world and beings. In conclusion I think the conflict arises whenever one mixes the ego- based worldly sense with the ultimate anatta-sense of the dhammas, i.e. the right understanding of ariya-savakas that the real world of people and beings is indeed empty of self or anything pertaining to self. The ariyans see the same real world of people and beings as we non-ariyans do, but they do not have grasping (upadana in view and in self or existence -- bhava). When there is no grasping, they "truly see the truth" (with Dhamma Eye that clearly sees the "dhamma theory") that people and beings as pure khandhas that are empty of self. It does not mean that people and beings are not real in the worldly sense. Well, that is just my one-Yen-worth of thought. Any comment for correction, or even a rejection, is always appreciated. Tep === #82372 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 6:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. dhammanusara Dear Howard (Jon), - Here is my one-cent response to your two-cents. >Howard: > Here's my two cents: People, and animals, and sentient beings in general are all "real enough" - whatever 'real' actually means, and it is certainly towards them that metta is directed, not towards single namas or rupas. They are real aggregations - integrated, dynamic aggregates of phenomena held together by "kammic glue." T: I think it is important to firstly accept that there are realities at different levels. The khandhas (nama & rupa) exist and are real (in the present, not real in the past or future), and persons who carry the khandhas burden are also real and impermanent at the worldling level. But "persons" are not real in the ultimate dhamma sense because there are only paramattha dhammas and no mental concoction that is conditioned by self views or clinging to the aggregates. When ariyans talk to worldlings, they are able to communicate without any conflict between real-world reality and ultimate reality. I like that coined term, 'kammic glue'. :-) .......... > Howard: > Conceptuality enters in when we think and speak of these aggregations (people, animals, trees, tables, etc) as if they were single phenomena. There need be no harm in doing so, and, in fact, language demands it. Error enters in when people, and aggregations in general, are not just referred to (in thought and speech) as individuals, but when they are reified, being actually sensed as or even believed to be single phenomena rather than aggregations of phenomena, or aggregations that have some core of self-existence that is "the personal self". (All but arahants *sense* aggregations as single phenomena or as having self, and all but ariyans hold this as *belief*.) T: I do not follow the ideas of "single phenomena" and "aggregations of phenomena", Howard. Further, what is the "core of self-existence" and how does it relate to the two kinds of phenomena? Can you explain these non-standard terms for me, please? Thankfully looking forward to hear your elaboration, Tep === #82373 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 7:26 pm Subject: Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. dhammanusara Hi Jon, (James) - I appreciate your input that has contributed to a better understanding of the "dhamma theory". >Jon: The question raised by James is this (I think): If the object of metta, even for an arahant (who has no wrong view or ignorance), is a person and not a paramattha dhamma, does this not mean that a person must be real? T: Yes, that is essentially what the question is about. >Jon: The answer lies in the general area of the passage you quote from above. In the ultimate sense, what we take for a person is a particular stream of consciousness, namely bhavanga cittas that (in the sense-spheres) are interrupted by sense-door and mind-door processes. Each such stream of cittas is unique and separate from any other stream of cittas. T: What we take as a person, I think, is the five aggregates of clinging. The following sutta states that the khandhas are the burden that is carried by a person. The Blessed One said, "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging- aggregates,' it should be said. Which five? Form as a clinging- aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging- aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: This, monks, is called the burden. "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name: This is called the carrier of the burden. [SN 22.22] >Jon: Thus although the arahant conceptualises in terms of a person (as he also does in terms of places and things), there is no mis- taking the conceptualised person as being, in the ultimate sense, anything other than a stream of cittas (and associated rupas). T: I really like what you have described, Jon. It is neater than what I used to clumsily say (for example, in a recent message to James) that ariyans can see people and beings the same way worldlings do, but they do not cling (with upadana) to the aggreagtes and grasp them as persons or beings. I want to emphasize that "seeing" no persons or beings in the khandhas is just a right perspective/view/belief that is free from clinging(upadana); it does not necessarily imply that there are no persons or beings in the whole wide world. >Jon: It is worth noting that while each citta arising in a stream is conditioned by the falling away of its predecessor, the same cannot be said for the rupas that are taken as the being's body. So, as the passage from CMA says, in the ultimate sense no beings, only dhammas. Well chosen! .................. Thanks, Jon. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep (and James) > > Thanks for the interesting quote from the introduction to CMA. I think > the observations made there are indeed pertinent to James' question to > Nina ("I thought there were no people, only dhammas?") > #82374 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 2:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 2/7/2008 9:43:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: T: I do not follow the ideas of "single phenomena" and "aggregations of phenomena", Howard. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: An aggregation is not a single phenomenon, and thinking of it as such is an error. ---------------------------------------------------- Further, what is the "core of self-existence" and how does it relate to the two kinds of phenomena? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thinking of an aggregation as an aggregation, and not as an individual, is correct thinking. But when there is added to that the thought of something additional that is the "self" or core of own-being underlying that aggregation, one is yet again in error. You ask what the alleged "core of self-existence" is. The answer is that it is ILLUSION. It is an imagined self associated with that aggregation and identified either with some component of it (e.g., consciousness in a person) or outside it yet somehow associated with it (e.g., the vedantic Brahman/Atman). ------------------------------------------------------ Can you explain these non-standard terms for me, please? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I've done my best. ------------------------------------------------------ Thankfully looking forward to hear your elaboration, ============================= With metta, Howard #82376 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 3:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? TGrand458@... Hi Nina I'll still think of you as an Satipatthana Sutta inference supporter. ................................................... In a message dated 2/7/2008 2:11:02 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Yes, it has everything to do with it. I wrote in my second post to you:< Kh Sujin said: then the thinking of someone else's sorrow reminds us to be aware of thinking. This is something I am forgetful of. I learn not to skip any opportunity for mindfulness. I find it helpful to remember this.> ........................................................ NEW TG: That's a fine thing if that's what works for you. But, its not what the Satipattha Sutta says or even hints to. Nope, the Satipatthana Sutta seems to show a Buddha capable of saying what he means...and not relying on subjective interpretations to say what he means. Its interesting that the monks of the Buddha's day, the monks that lived with the Buddha, felt unqualified to even hazard a guess as to what the Vinaya "minor rules" were. But you folks put all sorts of words into the Buddha's mouth that aren't even there in some of the most critical Suttas. Wow, we've come a long way. However, if you wish to be a Sujinist, then your line of thinking seems logical. .......................................................... I think that this makes satipatthaana very daily. We are thinking of external phenomena all the time and also the (inferential) thinking is a nama, not self. Nothing is excluded from satipatthana. Instead of reminder we can also use the word exhortation, if you prefer it. Adding a point of interest as to exhortation. You said in another post (to Sukin?): ------ KS III, Middle Fifty, §101, adze handle. This is often quoted, demonstrating how slowly defilements are wearing away. It is explained that he should see the arising and ceasing of the five khandhas. He wishes for the freedom from the aasavas. Isn't this like the blow of a hammer? ........................................................ NEW TG: I don't follow this "blow by the hammer" comment at all. Doesn't follow from the Suttas analogy. .................................................. I just give this as an example of a strong exhortation to develop understanding of the five khandhas, nama and rupa, of this moment. And so it is with the cemetery contemplations. ........................................................ NEW TG: Sure, the 5 khandas need to be understood. And how does the Buddha tell us to understand them? As conditioned, impermanent, afflicting, nonself. What is the purpose of this understanding? To detach, relinquish, turn away, and reject from the 5 khandas. Does the Buddha tell us that the 5 khandas should be seen as ultimate realities with their own characteristics? Or that the aim of his teaching is to know "dhammas"? NEVER. ....................................................................... -------- Nina. ................................................................... NEW TG: Well, some "Buddhist" schools think the Buddha's teaching are accomplished by Chanting to have your wishes fulfilled. So whatever you want to think...or whatever teachers views you wish to follow, that's up to you. I do fill compelled from time to time to point out that there is no Sutta basis to justify some of those beliefs; for the possible benefit of a non-initiated individual who happens-in on such conversations.. TG OUT #82377 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 8:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness .. developed body .. dhammanusara Dear Sarah (Howard, Nina, Phil, Alex, Dieter, Elaine), - I think you have touched upon something very important that Alex, Dieter, and Elaine might be glad to discuss it with us. >Sarah: You may not have seen the commentary note I added: "MA explains that "development of body" here is insight, and "development of mind" concentration. When the noble disciple experiences pleasant feeling, he does not become overwhelmed by it because, through his development of insight, he understands the feeling to be impermanent, unsatisfactory, and essenceless; and when he experiences painful feeling, he does not become overwhelemed by it because, through his development of concentration, he is able to escape from it by entering into one of the meditative absorptions." There may be more to discuss here... T: Yes, I saw that commentary note before. I did not say anything because I had thought 'development of understanding' was insight and 'development of body' was renunciation(nekkhamma). >S: Also, later in the sutta (MN36), we read about those 'who live bodily and mentally withdrawn from sensual pleasures...'. More to consider here perhaps? How do you understand the phrase and the connection with the above? T: Yes, you are exactly right. Thanks to your keen observation. I think "bodily withrawn" is equivalent to renunciation(nekkhamma). In other words, it is a synonym for "development of body". I may be wrong or inaccurate. But if my understanding is correct, then it should be a warning for us not to believe every word in the commentary. I hope to hear comments from other members too. Thank you very much for raising an important question. Tep === #82378 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 8:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. dhammanusara Hi Howard, - I truly appreciate this reply to my inquiry. > T: > Can you explain > these non-standard terms for me, please? > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I've done my best. > ------------------------------------------------------ T: Indeed, you did an excellent job of explaining the terms for me. > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > An aggregation is not a single phenomenon, and thinking of it as such is an error. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Further, what is the "core of self-existence" > and how does it relate to the two kinds of phenomena? > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thinking of an aggregation as an aggregation, and not as an individual, is correct thinking. But when there is added to that the thought of something additional that is the "self" or core of own- being underlying that aggregation, one is yet again in error. You ask what the alleged "core of self-existence" is. The answer is that it is ILLUSION. It is an imagined self associated with that aggregation and identified either with some component of it (e.g., > consciousness in a person) or outside it yet somehow associated with it (e.g., the vedantic Brahman/Atman). > ------------------------------------------------------ T: Yours is a clear elaboration of the self-view that relates well to attanuditthi and clinging to the khandhas (attavaupadana). I completely agree with your treatment of the self-existence issue as separate from the (mental)illusion, which is an error of view/thinking. Indeed, it is no longer relevant to ask whether persons are real, or whether or not there are Howard and Tep (i.e. the 'no self' idea). By avoiding the misleading issue of "no persons exist", you effectively remove the seemed-to-be conflict between kamma, metta, and the "dhamma theory" of the Abhidhamma. Is my understanding of your elaboration correct? I might have a few "slips" or loose ends somewhere. ;-) Tep === #82379 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 9:03 pm Subject: Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > T: Yeah, you've got a valid point about metta that, on first thought, > seems contradictory to the Abhidhamma's "dhamma theory". Yes, it is > true that metta bhavana is very fundamental of the Teachings and it > is very powerful, and that Buddhas and arahants "possessed metta of > great power". Yes, it is true that the Buddha did not see lay people, > bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, and other beings ("satta" that include devas > and brahmas) as not existing; otherwise, there would be no Teachings > and there would be no ariya savakas as the consequence. Since they > existed and the Buddha existed, so He could teach them to gain > Release from the Samsara through eradication of craving(tanha), self > views(attanuditthi) and conceit(mana). > > But there is no Release (unbinding, nibbana) in people who cannot let > go of tanha and ditthi(wrong view) that whispers: 'This is mine; that > is what I am (existing as a person); that is my self '. That view is > an attachment to the world of people and one's ego -- and that's why > it is wrong in the ariya sense. To gain Release one has to change his > perspective about the world and beings. Thank you for your answer. Really, I am just looking for a simple answer: Do people exist or do they not exist? Are people real or unreal? I keep getting answers along the lines of "Yes, people exist BUT…blah, blah, blah…" It's always that big BUT which then confuses the initial answer. I don't think that all of those qualifications are necessary. People either exist or they don't exist. According to the Abhidhamma and the commentaries (like the Vism.), people don't exist. According to the suttas, people do exist. This is all I am driving at. I know that this approach really irritates some people (especially Ken H.) who accuse me of trying to "dumb down" the Dhamma, but I don't agree. I just like to deal with one thing at a time. So, after we establish that people exist, some want to go farther and discuss "what is the nature of these existing people?" Sorry, I don't really want to discuss that because my wisdom/knowledge doesn't go that far. I refuse to bite off more than I can chew ;-)). I don't fully understand dependent origination so how could I have anything intelligent to offer about the nature of existing people? Metta, James #82380 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 9:22 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (2) .. Comments... dhammanusara Dear Han, - I have a few general comments to solicit for your kind discussion. Ashin Thitzana wrote : 1) "According to historical records in Buddhist texts, Buddha has spent seven consecutive weeks after having achieved perfect enlightenment and Buddhahood, enjoying Nibbanic bliss while entering the state of Vimutti-sukha. It was during His fourth week that he began reflecting on the Abhidhamma which comprises seven texts, namely: Dhammasanganii (the Compendium of Abhidhamma), Vibhanga (the Book of Analysis), Dhaatukathaa (the Book of Elements), Puggalapa~n~natti (the Book of teachings on the various Personality Analysis), Kathaavatthu (Points of Controversy), Yamaka (Book of Pairs), and Patthaana (Book of Conditional Relations)". ....................... T: We know that our Lord Buddha did not write these Abhidhamma books. So I am wondering how the immense detail of his thought was captured, preserved, and finally got published into the seven books of several thousand pages as we see them today. This was an evolution over the very long period of several centuries. How did the authorities (whoever they were) maintain the original accuracy over the years? ....................... 2) "Studying Patthaana is a very wonderful experience. The more you understand it, the more amazed you will become at such a marvelously expounded teaching of the Buddha". T: Does the author (Ashin Thitzana) give a few examples about how the understanding of Patthaana helped him appreciate the Buddha's teaching? Thanking you in advance, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear All, > > This is the continuation of the Foreward by Ashin > Thitzana to the book titled "Patthaana." > > -------------------- > > Simply put, Patthaana can also be said as Buddha's > relativity theory as it expounds the interactive > correlationship of mind and matter which manifests > itself within the natural framework of cause and > effect. #82381 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (2) .. Comments... hantun1 Dear Tep (and Nina), I thank you very much for your keen interest and for your very valid questions. If I cannot answer your penetrating questions, someone who knows better may come forward to answer. But I say with all sincerity that your questions are very useful, even if I cannot answer them. Tep: We know that our Lord Buddha did not write these Abhidhamma books. So I am wondering how the immense detail of his thought was captured, preserved, and finally got published into the seven books of several thousand pages as we see them today. This was an evolution over the very long period of several centuries. How did the authorities (whoever they were) maintain the original accuracy over the years? Han: You are right. The Buddha did not write these Abhidhamma books. He also did not write the Five Nikaayas which we are studying today as Suttanta Pitaka. You are also right to say that this was an evolution over the very long period of several centuries, and you are right to wonder how the authorities (whoever they were) maintained the original accuracy over the years. I think this sort of question should better be answered by the Venerable Sayadaws, or by someone who knows better than me. With my very limited knowledge, I am sorry I have no answer for that. -------------------- Ashin Thitzana: "Studying Patthaana is a very wonderful experience. The more you understand it, the more amazed you will become at such a marvelously expounded teaching of the Buddha". Tep: Does the author (Ashin Thitzana) give a few examples about how the understanding of Patthaana helped him appreciate the Buddha's teaching? Han: In the passage you have quoted, I do not think Ashin Thitzana said that the understanding of Patthaana helped him appreciate the Buddha’s teachings (if you mean the “entire” Buddha’s teachings). What he said was the more one understands the Patthaana, the more one is amazed at the marvelously expounded teaching of the Buddha [of the Patthaana.] Ashin Thitzana was only saying how deep and profound the Patthaana is. Please wait and read the entire Forward, and please come back, if you consider he said the understanding of Patthaana helps him or anybody else to understand the entire teachings of the Buddha. But here, I want to say one thing. If we can just forget, for the time being, what Ashin Thitzana said or did not say, and discuss about Patthaana. I am sure Nina can tell us how Patthaana can help understand the Dependent Origination and Paramattha dhammas, the direct knowledge of which can surely lead to the final liberation. Respectfully, Han #82382 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 4 nilovg Hi Larry, may I butt in? Op 8-feb-2008, om 1:45 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > 19.8 "...Herein, the six doors beginning with the eye and the six > objects beginning with visible data are a condition-common-to-all for > mentality because the occurrence of all kinds [of mentality] > classed as > profitable, etc., is due to that [condition]." > > I assume object is object condition, but what kind of condition is > base > (door)? --------- N: For the five bases that condition vipaakacittas such as seeing, I quote: Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:17 am Subject: Perfections Corner (86) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) The learner, sekkha, is the ariyan of the stage of the sotaapanna, streamwinner, up to the stage of the anaagaamí, non-returner. The non-learner, asekkha, does not need anymore to train himself and follow the practice leading to the eradication of defilements, because he has eradicated all defilements completely. The non-learner is the arahat. We read in the Commentary: “The jewel of the non-learner is twofold: the jewel of the Buddha and the jewel of the disciple. Of the non-learner jewels, the value of the jewels of even hundred thousand disciples does not equal the value of the jewel of the Buddha. Therefore, the jewel of the Buddha is accounted the foremost. The Buddha jewel is twofold: the jewel of the Silent Buddha (Paccheka Buddha) and the jewel of the Fully Enlightened One. As to the Buddha jewel, the value of the jewels of hundred thousand Solitary Buddhas does not equal the value of the jewel of the Fully Enlightened One. Therefore, the jewel of the Fully Enlightened One is accounted the foremost. Thus, as it is well known, there is no jewel equal to the jewel of the Buddha, not in this world nor in the worlds of devas. King Bimbisaara who was a sotaapanna thought, ‘Nothing else is more precious than the Triple Gem’. Therefore he asked the merchants who were citizens of Takkasilaa, ‘Are the three Jewels of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha known in your country?’ The merchants from Takkasila said, ‘In our country one has never heard of them. Where could they be seen?’ That was the reason that King Bimbisaara gave the order to make a sheet of gold of four cubits long, a span in breadth and a thickness which was just right: not too thin, not too thick. He washed his head in the early morning, he observed the Uposatha (vigil day), took breakfast and then he had inscriptions engraved on the sheet of gold. He had inscriptions made relating the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of the ten perfections, the excellent qualities of the Dhamma, the thirtyseven factors of enlightenment, the four satipatthaanas, the eightfold Path, the excellent qualities of the Sangha and Mindfulness of Breath-ing.” The excellent qualities of the Sangha at that time were the qualities of the ariyans who were contented with the four requisites, [1] who could subdue the hindrances, attain jhaana, acquire supernatural powers, and become “great men” (mahaa-purisa [2]). King Bimbisaara considered that he would have a present made superior to anything else: the excellent qualities of the Triple Gem which he had inscribed on the golden sheet. --------------------- Note [1] The four requisites of the monk: clothing, food, dwelling and medicines. Not [2] Great men or heroes: with distinctive qualities. -------------------- To be continued. Han #82384 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:22 am Subject: Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 5 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 4. Purification by Overcoming Doubt Chapter XIX 1 I. Introductory 2 II. Ways of discerning cause and condition 3 1. Mentality-materiality is neither causeless nor created by a Maker 5 2. Its occurrence is always due to conditions 7 3. General and particular conditions 11 4. Dependent cessation 12 5. Dependent origination .... S: Now we come to the last two sections above, concerning Dependent Origination and the understanding of the dependency on conditions for dhammas to arise. Only through directly understanding the conditioned nature of dhammas can D.O. be understood and doubts about such causes and conditions overcome. ..... [Dependent Origination - Reverse Order] 11. Another when he has seen that the formations called mentality-materiality arrive at ageing and that those that have aged dissolve, discerns mentality-materiality's conditions by means of dependent origination in reverse order in this way: 'This is called the ageing-and-death of formations; it comes to be when there is birth, and birth when there is becoming, and becoming when there is clinging, and clinging when there is craving, and craving when there is feeling, and feeling when there is contact, and contact when there is the sixfold base, and the sixfold base when there is mentality-materiality, and mentality-materiality when there is consciousness, and consciousness when there are formations, and formations when there is ignorance'. Then his uncertainty is abandoned in the way already stated. [Dependent Origination in Direct Order] 12. Another discerns mentality-materiality's conditions by means of dependent origination in direct order as already shown (Ch.XVII,29) in detail, doing so in this way: 'So ... with ignorance as condition there are formations' (M.i,261). Then his uncertainty is abandoned in the way already stated. .... S: Without an understanding of conditions and D.O., we remain as 'fools' as I was recently reminded. Therii Sumedha said [as quoted by Connie (#82210 in 'Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa, PTS Commentary on Verses of Theriis, Pruitt transl.]: "495. "Continued existence is long for fools and for those who lament again and again at that which is without beginning or end, at the death of a father, the slaughter of a brother, and their own slaughter. "495. Continued existence is long for fools means: continued existence, which is called the successive occurrence of the aggregates and sense bases, etc, in the coming into being in the cycles of the fruition of actions and defilements, is long for the blind fools who have not understood fundamental causes. They will not be cut off, even through the knowledge of a Buddha. For just as there is unlimited, uninterrupted ignorance and cravings, in the same way, a first beginning in the past is not know. This is so also for the future. And for those who lament (rodata.m) again and again (punna-ppuna.m) means: those who weep (rudantaana.m) because of grief again and again (aparaapara.m). By this, too, she makes clear to them that ignorance and cravings are uninterrupted." .... S: The only way out is through the understanding of dhammas and their 'fundamental causes'. At the stage of insight being discussed in this chapter of Visuddhimagga (paccaya-pariggaha-~naa.na), there is the direct understanding of the dependency of namas and rupas on conditions when they arise. There is direct understanding of the arising of dhammas, such as seeing and visible object. They can be known one at a time with their own distinct characteristics and as anatta. Metta, Sarah ======== #82385 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:25 am Subject: Patthaana (3) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of the Foreward by Ashin Thitzana to the book titled “Patthaana.” The broadest range of methodology used in expounding the Patthaana is overwhelmingly amazing in that the text itself becomes an obvious manifestation of omniscient knowledge achieved by Lord Buddha. This is why the Patthaana is often known as Anantanaya Samanta Patthaana, which means an all amazing Patthaana of infinite methods. In other words, it is a clear testament to the intellectual status of perfectly enlightened Buddha. The Patthaana, therefore, is indeed neither a mere musing nor a loftily complicated conceptual work of an intellectual. It is indeed an exposition of cosmic facts of truth presented in the terms and through perspective of Abhidhamma by enlightened Buddha. Chanting religious verses and sacred texts is an age-old practice in the human history performed by many according to their own religious beliefs and traditions. On the spiritual journey, there are many venues and different paths each individual chooses. Since ancient times of Buddha, Buddhist devotees and all those who adhere to Buddha’s teaching, have incorporated the practice of chanting into their religious life. As such, chanting, like other forms of religious acts, becomes part of religious practice in the Buddhist communities. The chanting of the Patthaana, many Buddhists believe, can bring about wonderful blessings in daily life, blessings which happens in the form of being protected from dangers, overcoming obstacles and fulfillment of one’s wholesome wishes, successful accomplishment of wholesome commitments in daily life and earning respect, favor and protection of invisible divine angels. During the process of chanting, one began to feel empowered and inspired by sacred words of the Omniscient Buddha. It is indeed a joyous experience to perform recitation of holy Patthaana texts either individually or in group. To be continued. Han #82386 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (2) .. Comments... nilovg Dear Han and Tep, Op 8-feb-2008, om 10:49 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Nina can tell us how Patthaana can help understand the > Dependent Origination and Paramattha dhammas, ------- N: In short today: The Patthaana teaches the relations between paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa. It is indispensable for the understanding of the way nama and rupa are conditioned, not made by a creator or a self. The more we understand conditions the less shall we cling to the idea of self. We shall understand what it means: nama and rupa are beyond control (by a self), they cannot be manipulated, nor made to arise at will. As to the Dependent Origination, in Ch XVII of the Visuddhimagga we have seen how it dealt with the conditions before explaining about the links. And with each link it is explained in which way the conditions operate. ------- Han, as to the authenticity of the Abhidhamma, much has been written, and Sarah also wrote many posts. I quote here part of Rob K's study forum, it is a quote of a Sayadaw. This Sayadaw also explains that Abhidhamma and Vipassana should go together. Nina. "The seven methods of examining Dhamma presented in the seven books of the Abhidhamma; that is to say, 1) the analysis of mind (citta), mental factors (cetasika) and matter (rupa) when taken together, 2) the analysis of the same when distinguished into parts, 3) the analysis of elements, 4) the analysis of individuals, 5) the comparison of doctrines, 6) the analysis of Dhamma into pairs, and 7) the examination of causal relations, are in truth none other than seven exceedingly deep methods of Vipassana practice. For this reason it can be said that the day the five hundred monks mastered the Abhidhamma - this being the teaching of abhidhamma-vipassana they had listened to since their ordination - was the very day they mastered the practice of Vipassana." endquote _____________ #82387 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:28 am Subject: Re: Cemetery contemplations and discursive thinking (was, Re: [dsg] Re: the p... jonoabb Hi TG TGrand458@... wrote: > Hi Jon > > The Satipatthana Sutta specializes in the subject of mindfulness. So of > course the bulk of it concerns direct awareness. However, even the Satipatthana > Sutta has many instances of using inferential knowledge as insight fodder. > I don't say mindfulness isn't important, I say its very important. But > inferential knowledge and teachings are replete throughout the Suttas and are also > very important. > > I read your post and didn't see anything I wanted to reply too. Hey, you've been making the point for weeks now that (a) the cemetery contemplations are instances of discursive thinking, and (b) no-one is responding directly to you on this point, but when I take issue with your interpretation, you've nothing to say! > It seems to > me you folks are looking at apples...and insisting they're oranges. > Well please feel free to be specific as to the apples and oranges you found in my post! Otherwise folks may wonder whether there's any substance to your bland dismissal ;-)) > Whatever. Here's another post I made regarding this issue in which I finally got > Nina to basically agree that the passage, from the Satipattha Sutta, was > dealing with inferential knowledge. Reposted here ....... > I may come to this topic later. One thing at a time for this simple mind, thanks! Jon #82388 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 4 sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (Larry & all) Thanks for joining in and kindly assisting. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > But attention, etc., are not common to all; for wise attention, > > hearing > > the Good Dhamma, etc., are a condition only for the profitable, ------- > > N: One can only really listen to the Dhamma when the citta is > > kusala with sati. This is not common to all cittas, and this shows > > that really listening with wise attention is rare. ... S: Yes, a good point. Listening doesn't mean just hearing someone teaching the Dhamma or opening a sutta. It refers to the cittas arising with with wise attention only. I like your quote of K.Sujin's: "If there is no sati, we listen but do not understand what we hear. There can be sati of the level of listening and then sati can grow when we listen again and again. Sati can be aware of paramattha dhammas." ... ------ >N: As to the words: consciousness-originated materiality. Temperature and nutriment are > conditions at the instant (moment) of their presence for > temperature-originated and nutriment-originated materiality. > > Citta is strong at the moment of arising and can then produce rupas. > Temperature and nutrition are rupas and these are weak at their > arising moment, they can only produce other rupas at the moments of > their presence, after they have arisen. ... S: There was a long footnote to this section. I didn't add it as I'm trying to keep the series relatively straight forward. (This will be apparent for the next section on kamma). For those like yourself and Larry with a keen eye for detail, here it is: .... {1}. 'If the fruit were to arise from present kamma, the fruit would have arisen in the same moment in which the kamma was being accumulated; and that is not seen, nor is it desirable. For in the world (i.e. among non-Buddhists) kamma has never been shown to give fruit while it is actually being effected; nor is there any text to that effect. - But is it not also the fact that no fruit has ever been shown to come from a vanished cause either? Or even a cock to crow because of that? - Certainly it has not been shown where the connectedness of material things is broken off. But the simile does not apply because there is connectedness of immaterial things here. For when the fruit arises from kamma that is actually past it does so because of kamma having been performed and because of storage. For this is said: "Because profitable sense-sphere kamma has been performed, stored up, there comes to be eye consciousness" (Dhs.431) 'Since consciousness has efficient power only at the instant of its arising, with the acquisition of a proximity condition, etc., it therefore only gives rise to materiality while it is arising. But since materiality has efficient power at the instant of its presence, with the acquisition of a prenascence condition, etc., it is therefore said that "temperature and nutriment are conditions at the instant of their presence for temperature-originated and nutriment-originated materiality". Temperature and nutriment give rise to materiality at the instant of their own presence by acquiring outside temperature and nutriment as their condition, is the meaning' (Pm.768). ..... S: The last paragraph is an elaboration on what you have said. Metta, Sarah ======== #82389 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:38 am Subject: Re: re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (86) nilovg Dear Han, Op 8-feb-2008, om 11:17 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > King Bimbisaara who was a sotaapanna thought, ‘Nothing > else is more precious than the Triple Gem’. -------- N: The comparison between the value of the different jewels was to make stand out how precious the jewel of the sammaa-sambuddha is. King Bimbisaara was sotaapanna. He had an unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem. When one has realized the truth directly one sees the great value of the Triple Gem, more so than ordinary people see it. And now you will read to what actions his great confidence and admiration for the Triple Gem inspired him. And then you will read how he envelopped it with precious layers of materials. Nothing would be good enough or worthy enough to pack this golden sheet and make it ready for handing it as a present to Pukkusaati. Note all the details, his great reverence in all his actions. Nina #82390 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (2) .. Comments... hantun1 Dear Nina (and Tep), Thank you very much for your kind clarification. Nina: In short today: The Patthaana teaches the relations between paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa. It is indispensable for the understanding of the way nama and rupa are conditioned, not made by a creator or a self. The more we understand conditions the less shall we cling to the idea of self. We shall understand what it means: nama and rupa are beyond control (by a self), they cannot be manipulated, nor made to arise at will. As to the Dependent Origination, in Ch XVII of the Visuddhimagga we have seen how it dealt with the conditions before explaining about the links. And with each link it is explained in which way the conditions operate. -------------------- Han: It is very clear and I have noted with deep appreciation. I also thank you very much for your statement and relevant quotes from Rob K’s study forum, as to the authenticity of the Abhidhamma, and the necessity of Abhidhamma and Vipassana going together. Respectfully, Han #82391 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (3) nilovg Dear Han and Tep, Op 8-feb-2008, om 11:25 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Since ancient times of Buddha, Buddhist devotees and > all those who adhere to Buddha’s teaching, have > incorporated the practice of chanting into their > religious life. As such, chanting, like other forms of > religious acts, becomes part of religious practice in > the Buddhist communities. -------- N: This also answers your querie to what extent the texts of the Abhidhamma, and I could add, the whole of the Tipitaka are authentic. Recently I wrote about my confidence in the method of transferrence by rote. I think that chanting is a way to learn the texts by heart. Ashin Thitzana knows most of the texts by heart, and still has to complete the Patthana and the Yamaka, as Jim told me. Jim is now going to meet him in Singapore, where the Ashin is giving a retreat. Nina. #82392 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:57 am Subject: Re: re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (86) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. Nina: The comparison between the value of the different jewels was to make stand out how precious the jewel of the sammaa-sambuddha is. King Bimbisaara was sotaapanna. He had an unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem. When one has realized the truth directly one sees the great value of the Triple Gem, more so than ordinary people see it. And now you will read to what actions his great confidence and admiration for the Triple Gem inspired him. And then you will read how he envelopped it with precious layers of materials. Nothing would be good enough or worthy enough to pack this golden sheet and make it ready for handing it as a present to Pukkusaati. Note all the details, his great reverence in all his actions. -------------------- Han: Thanks to you, I can now appreciate more what has been written in the book. I am beginning to love the story. No wonder Lodewijk loves it! Respectfully, Han #82393 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (3) hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: This also answers your querie to what extent the texts of the Abhidhamma, and I could add, the whole of the Tipitaka are authentic. Recently I wrote about my confidence in the method of transferrence by rote. I think that chanting is a way to learn the texts by heart. Ashin Thitzana knows most of the texts by heart, and still has to complete the Patthana and the Yamaka, as Jim told me. Jim is now going to meet him in Singapore, where the Ashin is giving a retreat. -------------------- Han: Once again, I thank you very much for your kind explanation. I have also the confidence in the method of transference of teachings of Buddha by rote. This chanting by rote is still practiced extensively in Burma among monks and lay-persons alike. It must also be the same in Thailand. Through Jim, I most humbly touch my forehead at the feet of Ashin Thitzana for forgiveness, for replying to you that I did not know him a few days back. Respectfully, Han #82394 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 3:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > Yeah, I wrote back to Howard so you can consider it a post to you as > well- if you would like to comment. > Thanks. I see your response to Howard as being on a somewhat separate point, not directly bearing on the original question (How there can be metta with person as object without 'person' having to be real in the ultimate sense). Just staying with the original point for a moment, within any particular stream of bhavanga cittas the whole range of experience and emotions arises. Thus, painful bodily feeling, the seeing of which in another person may condition the arising of karuna (compassion) on our part towards the other person, is experienced by the body-door consciousness that arises in between the bhavanga cittas that are conceptualised as the other person. And so on. As Howard explained, the difference between the worldling and the enlightened being in the conceptualisation of the other person is that for the enlightened being there is no longer any vestige of the view of any abiding self in connection with the other (conceptual) person. But in any event, the matter of right or wrong view of the other being as self has no bearing on the genuineness or otherwise of the metta ('false' metta is yet another separate matter!). Jon #82395 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 3:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: > T: I really like what you have described, Jon. It is neater than what > I used to clumsily say (for example, in a recent message to James) > that ariyans can see people and beings the same way worldlings do, > but they do not cling (with upadana) to the aggreagtes and grasp them > as persons or beings. > I thought the way you put it was exactly right. No wrong view of self; that is indeed the difference between the two. > I want to emphasize that "seeing" no persons or beings in the > khandhas is just a right perspective/view/belief that is free from > clinging(upadana); it does not necessarily imply that there are no > persons or beings in the whole wide world. > Well put. Jon #82396 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 3:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 4 sarahprocter... Hi Nina & Larry, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > 19.8 "...Herein, the six doors beginning with the eye and the six > > objects beginning with visible data are a condition-common-to-all for > > mentality because the occurrence of all kinds [of mentality] > > classed as > > profitable, etc., is due to that [condition]." > > > > I assume object is object condition, but what kind of condition is > > base > > (door)? > --------- ... S: Like you, Larry, I took object for being object condition but also wondered about the common condition for the 6 doors. .... > N: For the five bases that condition vipaakacittas such as seeing, I > quote: > > rebirth-linking, those five bases > beginning with the eye are conditions in six ways, as support, > prenascence, faculty, dissociation, presence and non-disappearance > conditions, for [that part of] the sixth, the mind base, comprising > eye-, ear-, tongue-, and body-consciousness. <...> > Text Vis. : But in the course of an existence, not at rebirth- > linking, the materiality of the [heart-] basis is a condition in five > ways, as support, prenascence, dissociation, presence, and non- > disappearance conditions, for the remaining mind base apart from the > five consciousnesses. > -------- ... S: The only difficulty here which Larry may raise is that in the original quote at the top, it is referring to doors (dvaras), not to bases. Eye-base etc are the doors for the sense door processes, but heart-base is not a door. The door for the mind-door processes is the last bhavanga citta before such mind-door processes. ("..the life-continuum mind is the door of arising...."(XV, 10). Also, "In the case of the mind door, howeer, the life-continuum mind-consciousness element is a condition, as the previously stated five conditions..." (XV,17) i.e proximity, contiguity, absence, disappearance, and proximity-decisive-support. So what is the common condition? Only support condition, if this is taken to include nissaya and upanissaya conditions....?? The other question which could be raised is what 'kusala, etc....' means. It refers to the doors beginning with eye-base being a condition for 'all kinds [of materiality]', but I wonder about bhavanga cittas which do not arise through any door (or with any 'door' as support). Metta, Sarah ======== #82397 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 3:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness .. developed body .. truth_aerator Hi Sarah, Tep & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > >Sarah: You may not have seen the commentary note I added: >>> Sarah and all, I think that you are smart enough to understand a lot of suttas WITHOUT commentaries. After all, what if that commentaror was "Sati #2" ? > "MA explains that "development of body" here is insight, > and "development of mind" concentration. >>> I was playing around with the Pali->English program examining words such as Jhana & Samadhi and the more I do it, the more it becomes clear to me that "there is a LOT more to it than 'mere concentration'". ekagga = tranquility "samadhigata,"pp. of samadhigacchati","attained; understood clearly.", "samadhigacchati","sam + adhi + gam + a","attains; understands clearly." samadhana","nt.","putting together; sama=,"adj.","even; equal; level; similar. (m.), calmness; tranquillity." sajjhayi = rehearsed, recited, studied (jhana comes from jhayi) >> When the noble disciple > experiences pleasant feeling, he does not become overwhelmed by it > because, through his development of insight, he understands the > feeling to be impermanent, unsatisfactory, and essenceless; and when > he experiences painful feeling, he does not become overwhelemed by it because, through his development of concentration, he is able to > escape from it by entering into one of the meditative absorptions." >>>> In number of the Suttas, the "jhana" are temporary escapes from Mara (and to be able to see 'present moment realities') which is one of the reasons they are so important. > There may be more to discuss here... > > T: Yes, I saw that commentary note before. I did not say anything > because I had thought 'development of understanding' was insight > and 'development of body' was renunciation(nekkhamma). > > >S: Also, later in the sutta (MN36), we read about those 'who live > bodily and mentally withdrawn from sensual pleasures...'. More to > consider here perhaps? How do you understand the phrase and the > connection with the above? > The most suitable interpretation is just that: Retreat away from distractions of the world. I know, I know, that some people want to have the cake and eat it too.... Lots of Metta, Alex #82398 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 10:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 2/7/2008 11:37:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Howard, - I truly appreciate this reply to my inquiry. ============================= I thank you for receiving it well. I'm very pleased that you were able to follow my presentation of my understanding. :-) Sometimes it's really hard to communicate one's perspective clearly enough. With metta, Howard #82399 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 3:45 am Subject: Re: Vipassana on the Act of Seeing -- was [dsg] Re: WOW ... jonoabb Hi Tep Thanks for the excerpt from Mahasi Sayadaw's vipassana lecture. Just a quick question or two. Tep Sastri wrote: > T: IMHO I believe Phil is right about Khun Sujin's teaching is about > the present moment contemplation (vipassana). Yes, Jon, this is > a "practice" and I have an excerpt from Mahasi Sayadaw's vipassana > lecture to support my belief (below). No, Phil, you are wrong about > catching visible object in split second. You don't have to. Well, > read the excerpt (and the original lecture too) to find out. > ............. > > Nibbana is far when there is no mindfulness > > ... One, who is mindful of > seeing whenever it arises, is said to be near to Nibbana. This fact > is explained as follows: > > At the moment of seeing, if one meditates on the act of seeing, > craving on the object seen will not arise. This is true. Every time > seeing arises, if one notes as 'seeing, seeing' continuously, craving > on the object seen will not arise and there will be no reflection on > it as well. In general terms, there is seeing arising for the whole of our waking hours. How do you understand the Venerable's suggestion that one should note 'seeing, seeing' continuously? Also, it seems to be implied that the aim of insight development is to prevent the arising of craving on the object. I thought the aim was to come to a better understanding of dhammas (of all kinds, including the aksuala tendencies). In any event, what about the craving that is also arising at the other five doorways continuously during the day? Jon