#82400 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 7, 2008 11:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 2/8/2008 12:08:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: So, after we establish that people exist, some want to go farther and discuss "what is the nature of these existing people?" Sorry, I don't really want to discuss that because my wisdom/knowledge doesn't go that far. I refuse to bite off more than I can chew ;-)). I don't fully understand dependent origination so how could I have anything intelligent to offer about the nature of existing people? ============================= I think you're making a mistake here, James. What we are is central to the Dhamma, don't you think? The nature of things, whether simple phenomena or complex aggregations, determines how they act, how they affect us, and how we should properly deal with them. In any case, I think that you wildly underestimate yourself, because can pretty much chew however much you bite. You're a smart guy. Also, you do meditate, and I doubt that in your meditating you have ever come across a singular being or have found a self lurking below the constellation of phenomena that is the person. Also, since when have you been willing to accept a simple yes/no answer to a complex and essential question, refusing to consider elaborations that clarify the answer? Quick answers aren't complete answers - they're just slogans that point in a direction. Sometimes some folks here will suggest not looking at something too deeply. I think that happens when uncomfortableness sets in. (I know that such is my inclination!) That's not usually your modus operandi, James. I suspect this is a momentary anomaly for you. Please set me straight if I'm wrong. (LOLOL! I have to laugh at myself! Since when would you NOT set me straight!! ;-) With metta, Howard #82401 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 5:36 am Subject: The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: Me: "With respect, monks are not automatically infallible. Going forth does not automatically endow some sort of special quality that then makes one's words somehow worth learning from. James: This is not true. It does. A monk is not just someone in a different costume; a monk is an entirely different person (or should be)..." Scott: 'Entirely different person' is a deceptive designation. I suggest this because, since person is concept, and concepts are endlessly alterable due to the function of thinking, they become meaningless and are nothing upon which to base anything. 'Monk' as concept takes on all of the particular fantasies (thoughts) one has about such a person and is nothing more than a construction of the mundane mind. James: "Being a Buddhist means accepting the Triple Gem: the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. All three, equally. I'm not sure what you mean by "worshipping", do you mean faith, saddha?" Scott: The way I've understood Sangha, as one of the Triple Gem, is that this refers to the ariya-sangha, that is the sotapanna, sakadaagaami, anaagaami, and arahat. To take an even more precise view, perhaps the ariya-sangha refers to the yoked Path moments of magga and phala which have such an effect on the constituents of the 'stream' of consciousness. Keeping this narrow focus, I think, avoids the whole mistaken view that it is the 'person' upon which one focuses. By worshipping I mean participation in a Cult of the Personality. And by that I mean becoming caught up in the person of a monk and thinking in terms of a person. This is entirely mundane. One then construes a person, further categorising this person into monk and proliferating a whole complex of thought about what a 'monk' is or ought to be. As noted, this is nothing more than fantasising and proliferation. James: "Again, this is not true. If you go forth, then you have renounced the world and dedicated yourself to Dhamma practice. This changes your viewpoint and the person that you are. It's not just about shaving your head and putting on a robe- there is an inner change." Scott: Again, an unwarranted belief in and focus on 'persons' creates this set of views which are, in my opinion, wrong. The moment I start thinking of myself as a person who changes when I become a monk is the moment I deepen my belief in my Self. I then open myself up to conceit, albeit of a seemingly holy and pious type. The moment I start thinking of a monk as a person who changes immediately upon going forth opens me up to a mental proliferation involving aspects of my own fantasies about myself mingled with my fantasies about 'monk' and then I am merely dealing with the mundane dynamics of thinking about persons, 'myself' included. The question ought to focus on what mental factor arises and serves as condition for 'going forth'. I'm not at all sure of this, but what about 'adhimokkha'? PTS PED: "Adhimokkha [fr. adhi + muc] firm resolve, determination, decision.." "Adhimuccati [Pass. of adhi + muc] 1. to be drawn to, feel attached to or inclined towards, to indulge in...2. to become settled, to make up one's mind as to (with loc.), to become clear about...3. to take courage, to have faith...adhimuccita and adhimutta. -- Caus. adhimoceti to incline to (trs.); to direct upon (with loc.)..." Scott: And then this would have to be arising with kusala citta in order to be 'right resolution' and not some akusala desire. For example, with a belief in monks as teachers, one's own desire to also be a teacher, for the aggrandizement of self, could motivate one to enter monkhood and this could be entirely based on conceit. Visuddhimagga III,128 (regarding 'dedicating oneself'): "With a sincere inclination [of heart] (sampannajjhaasayena) and sincere resolution (sampannaadhimuttinaa)...: the meditator's (yoginaa) inclination should be sincere in the six modes beginning with non-greed. For it is one of such sincere inclination who arrives at the three kinds of enlightenment, according as it is said: 'Six kinds of inclination lead to the maturing of the enlightenment of the Bodhisattas. With the inclination to non-greed Bodhisattas see the fault in greed. With the inclination to non-hate Bodhisattas see the fault in hate. With the inclination to non-delusion Bodhisattas see the fault in delusion. With the inclination to renunciation Bodhisattas see the fault in house life. With the inclination to seclusion Bodhisattas see the fault in society. With the inclination to relinquisment Bodhisattas see the fault in all kinds of becoming and destiny' (?). For stream-enterers, once-returners, non-returners, those with the cankers destroyed (i.e. Arahants), Paccekabuddas, and Fully Enlightened Ones, whether past, future or present, all arrive at the distinction peculiar to each by means of these same six modes. That is why he should have sincerity of inclination in these six modes." James: "Scott, I don't think I could answer this for you because you don't seem to believe in 'teachers'..." Scott: No, I don't. Not in a person. The Dhamma is the Teacher now. And it is not 'a person' who understands the Dhamma; this is a function of pa~n~naa. Sincerely, Scott. #82402 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 6:04 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 3, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha taught satipatthåna so that the wrong view of self can be eradicated. Through satipatthåna right understanding is developed and without satipatthåna síla cannot become “well established”. For the sotåpanna who has developed vipassanå, síla is “well established”. Satipatthåna includes training in “higher síla” (adhi-síla sikkhå), “higher citta” (adhi-citta sikkhå) and “higher wisdom” (adhi-paññå sikkhå). Instead of thinking of classifications and names or thinking of a specific order as to the development of síla, concentration and paññå, we can gradually develop understanding of the nåma and rúpa appearing at this moment and this is training in higher síla, higher citta and higher paññå. As to higher citta or concentration, this includes all levels of concentration, not merely jhåna. Concentration, samådhi, is the cetasika which is one-pointedness, ekaggatå cetasika. It arises with each citta and has the function of focussing the citta on one object. When satipatthåna arises, ekkagatå cetasika “concentrates” for that short moment on the nåma or rúpa which appears so that understanding of that reality can develop. In the development of samatha concentration is developed to a high degree so that jhåna can be attained, but this cannot be achieved without paññå which has right understanding of the citta and cetasikas which develop calm. In the “Visuddhimagga” all levels of concentration, jhåna included, are described, but this does not mean that everybody must develop jhåna in order to attain enlightenment. We read in the Tipitaka about jhåna, but we should remember that the Commentaries distinguish between two kinds of jhåna. We read in the Commentary to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I, sutta 8) about two meanings of the expression: meditate (jhåyathå). The objects of meditation or contemplation, jhåna, can be the thirtyeight objects of samatha or the characteristics beginning with impermanence (anicca) of the khandhas and the åyåtanas( sense-fields). The Commentary states: “It is said: ‘Develop samatha and vipassanå’.” It repeats that one should not be negligent. We read in the Subcommentary to this passage: “With mindfulness and clear comprehension (sati-sampajañña), which means: by grasping with thorough comprehension.” Acharn Sujin said: “One says that calm is helpful, but why does one not say: all moments of kusala are helpful? If one has more kusala cittas in daily life there is also calm. Why does one not develop more kusala in daily life instead of high levels of calm?” Any kind of kusala through body, speech and mind brings calm, and at such moments one does not think of oneself or one's problems. Each kusala citta is accompanied by calm (passadhi). ---------- Nina. #82403 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 6:21 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 37 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 504. "Sara ka.tasi.m va.d.dhente, punappuna.m taasu taasu jaatiisu; sara kumbhiilabhayaani ca, saraahi cattaari saccaani. 502. "Remember those filling up the cemetary again and again in brith and that. Remember the fears of crocodiles. Remember the four truths. Sara ka.tasi.m va.d.dhenteti punappuna.m taasu taasu jaatiisu aparaapara.m uppattiyaa punappuna.m ka.tasi.m susaana.m aa.lahanameva va.d.dhente satte anussara. "Va.d.dhanto"ti vaa paa.li, tva.m va.d.dhantoti yojanaa. Kumbhiilabhayaaniiti udaraposanattha.m akiccakaaritaavasena odarikattabhayaani. Vutta~nhi "kumbhiilabhayanti kho, bhikkhave, odarikattasseta.m adhivacanan"ti (a. ni. 4.122). Saraahi cattaari saccaaniiti "ida.m dukkha.m ariyasacca.m.pe. aya.m dukkhanirodhagaaminipa.tipadaa ariyasaccan"ti cattaari ariyasaccaani yaathaavato anussara upadhaarehi. 502. Remember (sara) those filling up the cemetery means: remember (anussara) the beings who are filling up the cemetery (ka.tasi.m = susaana.m = aa.lahana.m) again and again (puna-ppuna.m) in this birth and that, again and again (aparaapara.m), through birth again and again. There is also the reading va.ddhanto [for va.d.dhente]. The implication is: "you who are filling up (tva.m va.d.dhento)." Fears of crocodiles means: fears of gluttony through doing what should not be done in order to feed one's stomach.* For it is said, "Now fear of crocodiles, bhikkhus, is a term for gluttony."** Remember the four truths means: "This is the noble truth of misery, etc; this is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of misery."*** *Four fears for those who go down to the water are enumerated at M I 459 (MLDB 563f): fear of waves, crocodiles, whirlpools, and sharks. Fear of crocodiles is said to be like a bhikkhu who forsakes the training because of the rules concerning food and drink. **M I 461 [MLDB 564], A II 125 [GS II 128]. ***Vin I 10 (BD IV 16), S V 422 (KS V 358). This is from the Budda's first discourse. 505. "Amatamhi vijjamaane, ki.m tava pa~ncaka.tukena piitena; sabbaa hi kaamaratiyo, ka.tukataraa pa~ncaka.tukena. 503. "When the undying exists, what do you with drinking the five bitter things? For all the delights of sensual pleasure are more bitter than the five bitter things. Eva.m raajaputtii anekaakaaravokaara.m anussara.navasena kaamesu sa.msaare ca aadiinava.m pakaasetvaa idaani byatirekenapi ta.m pakaasetu.m "amatamhi vijjamaane"ti-aadimaaha. Tattha amatamhi vijjamaaneti sammaasambuddhena mahaakaru.naaya upaniite saddhammaamate upalabbhamaane. Ki.m tava pa~ncaka.tukena piitenaati pariyesanaa pariggaho aarakkhaa paribhogo vipaako caati pa~ncasupi .thaanesu tikhi.nataradukkhaanubandhataaya savighaatattaa sa-upaayaasattaa ki.m tuyha.m pa~ncaka.tukena pa~ncakaamagu.narasena piitena? Idaani vuttamevattha.m paaka.tatara.m karontii aaha- "sabbaa hi kaamaratiyo, ka.tukataraa pa~ncaka.tukenaa"ti ativiya ka.tukataraati attho. 503. In this way, the king's daughter expained the danger in sensual pleasures and in continued existence through recalling in many different ways. Now, to reveal it even more, she spoke [the verses] beginning When the undying exists [vv.503-513]. There, when the undying (amatamhi) exists (vijjamaane) means: when the undying state of the true Doctrine (saddhammaamate), which was compared to great compassion by the Fully and Perfectly Awakened One, exists (upala-bbhamaane). What do you want with drinking the five bitter things? means: what do you want with drinking the five bitter things (pa~nca-ka.tukena), the five tastes of the cords of sensual pleasure (pa~nca-kaama-gu.na-rasena), which are full of annoyance, continually of sharper pain, the five occasions that are: searching, acquiring, watching over, enjoying, and the result. Now, making the goal that has been mentioned clearer, she say, For all the delights of sensual pleasure are more bitter than the five bitter things. They are much more bitter. That is the meaning. .. to be continued, connie from: *CAF Rhys Davids: Psalms of the Sisters, with the Chronicle from the Commentary by Dhammapaala entitled 'The Elucidation of the Highest Meaning'. PTS 1909 @ http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html *Wm Pruitt: The Commentary on the Verses of the Theriis: Theriigaathaa-A.t.thakathaa, Paramatthadiipanii VI by Aacariya Dhammapaala. PTS 1999 *txt/cy: vri cscd, tipitaka.org #82404 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment sukinderpal Hi Alex, I just got the chance to read and now respond to this. ============ > > Sukin: Please note: No one here believes in accumulating "knowledge" > > for the sake of it. Having made the distinction between this and > > intellectual "understanding", what is then being encouraged is to > turn the mind to the present moment experience in order to study it. > >>> Alex: > What do you think happens in a properly done BUDDHIST Bhavana > (meditation)? Study of experience! When the present moment is the object of understanding at the intellectual level, there is no mistaking this for satipatthana. Moreover if there has been a ‘correct’ understanding one goes away knowing, that the moment was conditioned and momentary. On the other hand when one decides to “meditate”, one is actually following an ‘idea’ without any understanding about the moment being just ‘thinking’, conditioned, and momentary. This invariably leads to other ideas / trains of thought being followed, including about how one is supposed to sit, when, and where. And when it comes to the act of meditation itself, one goes by ideas about how the observation needs to be done. And so one ends up involved in series of thought reactions, some of which appear different is considered to be ‘silent observation’ / meditation etc. This is what I think happens from beginning to end, in properly done ‘meditation’ of which you choose to label, ‘Buddhist Bhavana”. ============= Alex: > If you define "meditation" as simply blanking out and nothing after > it, then I agree with you - it doesn't work for liberation. > But if you do meditation FOR INSIGHT (which includes studying stress, > its origin, its cessation, etc) and whatever arises - then it is > helpful. If satipatthana arises it is very helpful and if vipassana arises, this is even more so. What is not helpful is to mistake wrong mindfulness, wrong effort, wrong concentration and wrong understanding for right. ============= > >>> > This by conditions, including accumulations, can be Pariyatti, > Patipatti or Pativedha, none of which however is within power of > will to make rise. > >>>> Alex: > This is true in a sense that simply wishing will not work. This has > been stated in the suttas (and this is one reason why Buddha was an > Arahant. He couldn't be like a Mahayana Bodhisattva). > > A mental label that "I can't do anything" will be a cause for not > producing energy, desire, decision and so on to provide the causes > for results. > > A mental label "It can be done" on other hand will be a helpful cause. I am not talking about ‘wishing’, as you imply, wishing or no wishing, there is need for other conditions. If by "It can be done" you mean the same thing as, “development can take place”, this is not the opposite of “I can’t do anything”. Yes, development can take place, if I didn’t think so, I wouldn’t be spending so much time listening to and reading Dhamma. But actually “I can’t do” and it’s opposite “I can do”, are the same in that both are rooted in “self view”. =============== > > And all three will agree to this very fact of dhammas being > > conditioned and beyond control, hence never would any idea emerge > from them about any "doings". > >>> Alex: > This is what happens when you take a very extreme stance on > conditionality, ignoring the fact that some things can be > unconditioned and not 100% dependent on previous causes. No consciousness arises by past conditions alone, including resultants. But they are not ‘controllable’, and this is in part due to the very fact of conditionality and the complexity of this. Not being controllable does not imply there being past conditions alone. There being present conditions, this on the other hand, does not imply ‘control’. The thinking “to do”, were it to be seen in the moment as ‘conditioned’, this would prove the above fact to be true. In the above when you say, “things can be unconditioned” do you mean that unwholesome tendencies can be replaced by wholesome tendencies? If so, know that within the type of conditionality that I am talking about, the same principle applies for everyone, from beings in the hell planes to Arahats. Conditionality rules! Do you think that I’m coming from holding a philosophical position / belief with this idea of ‘no control’? ============== > > The story above is only your own projection. > > Alex: > Or yours. Yes, I am quite an expert at this after all. ;-) ============== > > Sukin: If they are Ariyans, the akusala kamma committed by me would > be due to the "wrong view" I hold. This would be so even if I didn't > > speak out. > > Alex: > Speech is also Kamma. Yes, true. ============= > > > > But what if I'm in fact right and they are wrong���?? > >>> Alex: > In any case, making such sweeping generalizations ABOUT MONK TEACHERS > is not good. I usually have in mind resources I’ve come into contact with directly or indirectly. Sometimes, because these people may have learnt what they did from them, I go on to include their teachers in my generalization. But believe me, every time I express myself about this, I picture in my mind, a monk somewhere doing his thing, i.e. studying and contemplating the Dhamma / developing Right View, uninfluenced by other monks who may be having wrong understanding. And I did say, “teachers I have come across” to TG, I think… ================ > That is in fact a form of indulgence in "wrong view". > > Please don't try to sell me that by using now a different label. ;-) > >>> Alex: > One pointed concentration when you try to be deaf and blind & > insensitive to satipatthana is wrong view/practice - sure. > But do you know what true Meditation is all about? I was not talking about ‘one pointed concentration’. And btw, Jhana is Jhana, there is no such thing as Buddhist and non-Buddhist Jhana. And Jhana of no matter what level, is no small feat and *far from being dumb*. It requires power of discernment second only to the N8FP, hence should be viewed with the greatest respect. This “dumb Jhana” of yours, where and how did this idea originate? If by “true meditation” you are not referring to the Jhana I talk about above but something else. And if this involves similar sitting down cross-legged for an extended period of time, I think whatever is involved in this, must be nothing worth knowing about. Sorry. ================ > > > Sukin: And some people believe that they *know* what the "burden" > is, what the "aggregates" are and what it means to "end tanha' and the > > path leading to this end, when they actually don't. > >>> Alex: > If they fully knew it, they'd be Arahant. One way to see it for > yourself... Meditate! But there you were suggesting this as being motivating factor for an interest in meditation….? ================ > >>> > So they end up following their own projection and garnering this with > even more ideas > such as the `need for physical solitude'. > >>>> Alex: > How many suttas have you read? Sariputta needed, Mahamoggallana > needed it, 5 ascetic friends, etc... And so many (if not all) of the > best Arahats in Buddha's dispensation (even before large monasteries > were built), Sariputta got enlightened hearing just a short phrase the essence of the Buddha’s teachings; he wasn’t meditating at the time. Both he and Mahamogallana were ‘meditating’ (Jhana) before they met the Buddha. But it was the Buddha’s words that did the trick, not their meditation. Jhana requires physical solitude but the application of the Buddha’s teachings does not. Do you think monasteries were built for the purpose that monks might get a chance to meditate? If ‘formal meditation’ as what you and the rest of the Buddhist world understand it, were the right thing to be engaged in, why is it that there were no specially constructed buildings meant to serve the same purpose as do retreat centers today, i.e. a place for lay persons to practice meditation? Were the people of the Buddha’s time not creative enough to come up with the idea? ============ Alex: > Sensual indulgence includes mental objects and "not doing anything". “Not doing anything” but understanding whatever arises in the moment, including mental objects and desire. Yes, ‘mental objects’ can be object of sensual indulgence and this is exactly what “formal meditation” is all about!! ============= > >>> > On DSG, conditionality is stressed to the max and no > excuse is ever made for any kind of akusala to be followed. > >>> > > What about the Buddha? He didn't stress it to such a degree for > sotopanaship. Did you read what his gradual discource was like? He stressed it with great precision (in terms of the listener’s level of understanding and state of mind) for 45 years. He did not use the same language / terminology used here on DSG; however his discourses, gradual or otherwise are all about conditionality. What else could he be talking about apart from Nibbana? ;-) Of course most of his audience didn’t need to hear much to become enlightened. But that was only what it was in that particular life, but what about the lives before that? ============= Alex: > Are unwholesome states kusala or akusala? Is this a test in Pali?;-) ============= Alex: > Is seclusion from them kusala or akusala? Mental seclusion is reference to a moment of kusala. There is Jhana which is temporary seclusion from sense contacts. And there is guarding the sense which is the N8FP, this leads gradually to eradication of all forms of akusala. ============== Alex: > Is skillful seeing anicca-dukkha-anatta kusala or akusala? Seeing anicca-dukkha-anatta directly can only be the function of very great panna. Anyone who has experienced this will not doubt about the moment as constituting dhammas with these three characteristics. Having developed panna and the sanna, insight into the Tilakkhana arises easily regardless of time, place and posture. Is this what you mean by “skillful”? Or are you talking about someone who sits down to ‘meditate’ in order that he might experience these three characteristics? =============== Alex: > Is seeing vinnana, namas & rupas rise and fall -kusala or akusala? If it is panna that you are referring to, then this can only be kusala. Therefore if the citta is not kusala, yet there is the perception of experiencing rise and fall, you can be sure that this is in fact being ‘delusional’. ;-) Alex, I appreciate that you comment and give me a chance to reflect on them and find an answer; however I’m unable to keep up with the postings here. So please allow me to bow out of this, though of course you can have the last word. Metta, Sukin #82405 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 8:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment truth_aerator Sukinder, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > When the present moment is the object of understanding at the > intellectual level, there is no mistaking this for satipatthana. >>> What is needed is DIRECT experience. Intellectualization is NOT a direct experience. The Dhamma is beyond mere reasoning “beyond the sphere of reasoningâ€? (atakkâvacara), because the domain of the supreme knowledge are not accessible by reasoning [because ultimately it has to be personally experienced and is beyond the domain of language or thought]; http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/03BrahmajalaSComypiya.doc > Moreover if there has been a �correct� understanding one goes away > knowing, that the moment was conditioned and momentary. >>> I don't deny this. What I disagree with is to place too much emphasize of intellectually knowing as opposed to DIRECTLY EXPERIENCING which is what Buddhist meditation is about. >>>>>> On the other hand when one decides to �meditate�, one is actually following an �idea� > without any understanding about the moment being just �thinking�, > conditioned, and momentary. >>> Strawman. Sariputta and MahaMogallana meditated BIG time... So did many of Buddha's Arahant disciples. >>>> This invariably leads to other ideas trains of thought being followed, including about how one is supposed to sit, when, and where. >>> Strawman again. Meditation is done in all postures. Sitting crosslegged on the floor is not magical or symbolic - it is how people comfortably sit on the floor (chairs may not have been available to all people in ancient India). >>>> And when it comes to the act of meditation itself, one goes by ideas about how the observation needs to be done. >>> Where did you learn this? > ============= > > If satipatthana arises it is very helpful and if vipassana arises, this is even more so. >> What is the difference? >>> What is not helpful is to mistake wrong mindfulness, wrong effort, wrong concentration and wrong understanding for right. >>>> TRUE. But if you expect that the first time you meditation it is going to be right, that is false. Most meditations aren't going to be "right" anyways. Just like a child who is learning to walk often falls down, same is here. If the child was afraid of falling down, then he would avoid practicing walking and become an invalid (paraplegic of something like that)... Learning from YOUR OWN experience will develop your OWN factors of awakening. Examining you own meditation will help develop (dhamma- vicaya). "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment without a sequel." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html >>>> > I was not talking about �one pointed concentration�. >>>> Considering how much Buddha emphasized understanding, "one pointed concentration" is a mistranslation. >>> And btw, Jhana is Jhana, there is no such thing as Buddhist and non- Buddhist Jhana. >>> Oh there is. In one of the AN suttas the Buddha has talked about two Jhanas. One is based on hindrances (improper jhana) and another one isn't. >>> It requires power of discernment second only to the N8FP, hence > should be viewed with the greatest respect. This �dumb Jhana� of yours, > where and how did this idea originate? >>>> Yes, jhana requires a LOT of discernment. I didn't say dumb jhana, I've said blind/deaf "jhana". The Jhana which Buddha criticized in MN152. The "dumb Jhana" was taught by Brahman Parisivi (mn152) and some people today. > If by �true meditation� you are not referring to the Jhana I talk about > above but something else. And if this involves similar sitting down > cross-legged for an extended period of time, I think whatever is > involved in this, must be nothing worth knowing about. Sorry. >>> That you have is a very damaging view. Where do you get your ideas about what meditation is isn't? How many suttas have you read? >> > > But there you were suggesting this as being motivating factor for an > interest in meditation�.? > ================ You can't become an Anagamin without MASTERING samma-samadhi. Not to mention Arahatship. > > Sariputta got enlightened hearing just a short phrase the essence of the > Buddha�s teachings; he wasn�t meditating at the time. >>> How do you know? He may have been in or very close to 1st Jhana. He may have meditated second after hearing Buddha's statement and he may have meditated immeadetely before fanning the Buddha. Heck, he could have been in the Jhana while fanning the Buddha. >>> Both he and Mahamogallana were �meditating� (Jhana) before they met the Buddha. >>> You mean before Sotapanaship? Or during that week after ordaining? >>> > it was the Buddha�s words that did the trick, not their meditation. >>>>> Both. Buddha's instruction helped Sariputta to let go of even the clinging to Dhamma. Saripitta (as many other arahants) become an Arahant after emerging from cessation of perception & feelings (9th Jhana). Heck. Many passages of attaining STREAM ENTRY imply a possibility of some sort of cessation, which can happen from even the 1st Jhana. >> > Jhana requires physical solitude but the application of the Buddha�s > teachings does not. >>>> Again you are taking extremes. Going into a quite room can be a sort of solitude (not the best of course). Anagamin householders could master 4 Jhanas... They didn't have the constant solitude of the forest. >>> > Do you think monasteries were built for the purpose that monks might get a chance to meditate? >>> Early monks usually meditated in the forests, caves, etc - Not in monasteries. Monasteries came later when there were more and more monks >>> If �formal meditation� as what you and the rest of > the Buddhist world understand it, >>>> Not exactly. There are too many "meditations" that may not be 100% what Buddha taught. >>> > why is it that there were no specially constructed buildings meant to serve the same purpose as do retreat centers today, i.e. a place for lay persons to practice meditation? Were the people of the Buddha�s time not > creative enough to come up with the idea? > ============ There WERE ANAGAMIN HOUSEHOLDERS with full mastery of 4 Jhanas. Furthermore many people became monks and meditated in the forests, caves, under the tree etc. In those times there were far fewer people and far more empty forests. Today (for example in America) we need retreat centers since almost all the land is owned by private owners (usually non buddhists). > > > > Alex: > > > Sensual indulgence includes mental objects and "not doing anything". > > �Not doing anything� but understanding whatever arises in the moment, > including mental objects and desire. Yes, �mental objects� can be object >>>> of sensual indulgence and this is exactly what �formal meditation� is all about!! >>> IF it is Jhana, than never. The "meditation" that you critique is NOT what I practice. >>> He did not use the same language / terminology used here on DSG; >>> I wonder why? > > Of course most of his audience didn�t need to hear much to become > enlightened. But that was only what it was in that particular life, but what about the lives before that? >>>> 1st) Because they have taken his instructions and meditated all out, they developed panna and all of that for awakening. 2nd) It is very doubtful as to how much Dhamma books they have read in former lives. > > Alex: > > > Is seclusion from them kusala or akusala? > > Mental seclusion is reference to a moment of kusala. >>> Which is what Jhana is about as well. > There is Jhana which is temporary seclusion from sense contacts. And > there is guarding the sense which is the N8FP, this leads gradually to eradication of all forms of akusala. >>>> Contact is present in ALL 8 Jhanas. See mn111. > ============== > > Alex: > > > Is skillful seeing anicca-dukkha-anatta kusala or akusala? > > Seeing anicca-dukkha-anatta directly can only be the function of very great panna. >>>> This happens in Jhana. >>>>> Anyone who has experienced this will not doubt about the > moment as constituting dhammas with these three characteristics. Having developed panna and the sanna, insight into the Tilakkhana arises easily regardless of time, place and posture. >>> This happens most clearly in Jhana too. > > Is this what you mean by �skillful�? Or are you talking about someone who sits down to �meditate� in order that he might experience these three characteristics? >>>> For beginners whose minds are too restless, sitting down is ideal posture. Remember there is nothing magical in physical posture. The awakening comes from a clear mind. When someone is master at Jhana, then it can easily be done in walking/standing positions as well. Forget about the body! > =============== > Alex: > > > Is seeing vinnana, namas & rupas rise and fall -kusala or akusala? > > If it is panna that you are referring to, then this can only be kusala. > Therefore if the citta is not kusala, yet there is the perception of > experiencing rise and fall, you can be sure that this is in fact being > �delusional�. ;-) >>>> Kusala states happen in or based on Jhana. Lots of Metta, Alex #82406 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 11:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 5 nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you, very good conclusion. I liked the quote from Connie's Sisters: And yesterday at the funeral we were reminded when seeing my neighbour's children weeping so much. Nina. Op 8-feb-2008, om 11:22 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > The only way out is through the understanding of dhammas and their > 'fundamental causes'. At the stage of insight being discussed in this > chapter of Visuddhimagga (paccaya-pariggaha-~naa.na), there is the > direct > understanding of the dependency of namas and rupas on conditions > when they > arise. There is direct understanding of the arising of dhammas, > such as > seeing and visible object. They can be known one at a time with > their own > distinct characteristics and as anatta. #82407 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? nilovg Hi TG, Op 8-feb-2008, om 5:00 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > NEW TG: Sure, the 5 khandas need to be understood. And how does the > Buddha > tell us to understand them? As conditioned, impermanent, afflicting, > nonself. What is the purpose of this understanding? To detach, > relinquish, turn > away, and reject from the 5 khandas. ------- N: I agree, of course. But this goes step by step.Not at pnce. --------- > > TG: Does the Buddha tell us that the 5 khandas should be seen as > ultimate > realities with their own characteristics? Or that the aim of his > teaching is to > know "dhammas"? NEVER. -------- N: Yes, this has to be known first. There are stages of insight. Beginning is beginning. As to dhammas, I gave you some Abhidhamma texts with the plural: in Pali dhammaa is the plural, dhamma the singular. I can return to these if you like, but I am behind in answering posts. Blow of the hammer: Lodewijk's expression. It hits hard, you cannot deny it. You are really confronted with it and cannot go away from it. Namely the words 'his lack of bhaavanaa'. As to thinking of external elements (other people's nama and rupa), the thinking has to be known as a conditioned element, otherwise it is my thinking all the time. I quote Sukin (to Alex): This is important, I believe. Conditioned and momentary, it cannot be manipulated. As Scott expresses it so well: the dhamma is my teacher, thus, I am not a sujinist as you may think. If she would not be talking dhamma which can be verified I would not quote her. Nina. #82408 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. nilovg Hi Tep and Howard, I truly appreciate your dialogue and input. Very helpful for Lodewijk. But he said: lately he has less trouble with the issue of metta and no person. Nina. Op 8-feb-2008, om 5:37 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Indeed, it is no longer relevant to ask whether > persons are real, or whether or not there are Howard and Tep (i.e. > the 'no self' idea). By avoiding the misleading issue of "no persons > exist", you effectively remove the seemed-to-be conflict between > kamma, metta, and the "dhamma theory" of the Abhidhamma. #82409 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 2 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 8-feb-2008, om 1:30 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina: "Past kamma produces ruupas of the body beginning at the > moment of > rebirth-consciousness. Where is the 'mine'?" > > Larry: A figure of speech to differentiate my kamma from my parents' > kamma which played no small part in the conditioned arising of "this > body". I'm still not 100% sure what the word "kamma", above, refers > to, > since ignorance, craving, and clinging do produce rupa, don't they? ------- N: At rebirth kamma produces rupas, and the accumulated ignorance and clinging are the attendants of kamma. They do not actually produce at that moment. After the rebirth-consciousness has fallen away citta produces rupas. Citta rooted in lobha is always accompanied by ignorance, and it can produce the rupas that are bodily and verbal intimation. It can also produce groups of the eight inseparable rupas. Nina. #82410 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. upasaka_howard Hi, nina (and Tep) - In a message dated 2/8/2008 2:31:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Tep and Howard, I truly appreciate your dialogue and input. Very helpful for Lodewijk. But he said: lately he has less trouble with the issue of metta and no person. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Wonderful. (I, of course, don't exactly say "no person" - yet I don't think you and I are largely in substantive agreement on this matter.) --------------------------------------------------- Nina. ======================= With metta, Howard #82411 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 1:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) m_nease Hi Scott, Scott Duncan wrote: > The Dhamma is the Teacher now. > And it is not 'a person' who understands the Dhamma; this is a > function of pa~n~naa. Excellent, Scott--thanks. mike #82412 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 8:36 am Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 2/8/2008 3:16:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: Wonderful. (I, of course, don't exactly say "no person" - yet I don't think you and I are largely in substantive agreement on this matter.) =============================== I had meant DISagreement! ;-)) With agreeable metta, Howard #82413 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:00 pm Subject: Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. buddhatrue Hi Howard, Your post is really funny to me. It seems that I have shocked you somehow. I assure you that I am not being falsely modest or underestimating myself, I really do not fully understand the true nature of the human being (I just wanted to establish that they exist). Let me respond to a few of your comments: Howard: In any case, I think that you wildly underestimate yourself, because can pretty much chew however much you bite. You're a smart guy. James: Well, thank you for the compliment but I'm not that smart. Take for example this quote from the Vism.: And it is inherently difficult to comment on the dependent origination, as the Ancients said: `The truth, A BEING, rebirth-linking, `And the structure of conditions, `Are four things very hard to see `And likewise difficult to teach'. Vism. XVII, 25 Howard: Also, you do meditate, and I doubt that in your meditating you have ever come across a singular being or have found a self lurking below the constellation of phenomena that is the person. James: Of course I haven't come across "a self" in the course of my meditation. But, you seem to believe that by vipassana meditation, seeing nama and rupa as fleeting phenomenon, one then sees the true nature of `a being'; however, it isn't that simple. This is what the Buddha taught about dependent origination: "And what is the dependent origination, bhikkhus? With ignorance as condition there are [volitional] formations; with formations as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, mentality-materiality; with mentality-materiality as condition, the sixfold base with the sixfold base as condition, contact; with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, becoming; with becoming as condition, birth; with birth as condition there is ageing-and-death, and sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair; thus there is the arising of this whole mass of suffering." Howard, when you write "the constellation of phenomena that is the person" it makes it sound like mentality-materiality is the person; however, as we can see from dependent origination, that is only one aspect of "the person". The person is not simply a "nama/rupa thing", the person is a process which involves ignorance, consciousness, nama/rupa, sense bases, contact, feeling, craving, becoming, and suffering- and all of these are occurring at exactly the same time. `A being' is much more complicated than the Abhidhamma paints it out to be. And, to say that a being doesn't exist in the ultimate sense, but does exist in the worldly sense, just doesn't make any sense! :-) A being either exists or it doesn't. Howard: Also, since when have you been willing to accept a simple yes/no answer to a complex and essential question, refusing to consider elaborations that clarify the answer? James: Actually, I believe I have done that a lot. I am a pragmatist. I don't like to spend a lot of time pontificating philosophy and I especially don't like to spend a lot of time conjecturing about things I don't know (like the nature of beings or the nature of nibbana). Howard: Sometimes some folks here will suggest not looking at something too deeply. I think that happens when uncomfortableness sets in. (I know that such is my inclination!) James: I am not really uncomfortable with this subject; I just don't think I am qualified to explain the nature of people (but people do have a nature because they do exist! Of that I am certain.) Howard: That's not usually your modus operandi, James. I suspect this is a momentary anomaly for you. Please set me straight if I'm wrong. (LOLOL! I have to laugh at myself! Since when would you NOT set me straight!! ;-) James: LOL! Okay, consider yourself set straight! (geez, I must really be a hard-ass! Maybe I need to take some private lessons from Han on gentleness! ;-)) Metta, James #82414 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > Yeah, I wrote back to Howard so you can consider it a post to you as > > well- if you would like to comment. > > > > Thanks. I see your response to Howard as being on a somewhat separate > point, not directly bearing on the original question (How there can be > metta with person as object without 'person' having to be real in the > ultimate sense). > > Just staying with the original point for a moment, within any particular > stream of bhavanga cittas the whole range of experience and emotions > arises. Thus, painful bodily feeling, the seeing of which in another > person may condition the arising of karuna (compassion) on our part > towards the other person, is experienced by the body-door consciousness > that arises in between the bhavanga cittas that are conceptualised as > the other person. And so on. This doesn't make any sense. Try to explain metta to me without using the words: person, human being, or being. Metta, James #82415 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:05 pm Subject: The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thanks for the reply: > > Me: "With respect, monks are not automatically infallible. Going > forth does not automatically endow some sort of special quality that > then makes one's words somehow worth learning from. > > James: This is not true. It does. A monk is not just someone in a > different costume; a monk is an entirely different person (or should > be)..." > > Scott: 'Entirely different person' is a deceptive designation. I > suggest this because, since person is concept, and concepts are > endlessly alterable due to the function of thinking, they become > meaningless and are nothing upon which to base anything. 'Monk' as > concept takes on all of the particular fantasies (thoughts) one has > about such a person and is nothing more than a construction of the > mundane mind. Okay, well if you think that monks don't exist we don't really have anything to discuss. I'm not sure why you posted to me in the first place?? Metta, James #82416 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. dhammanusara Dear Nina (Howard, Jon), - I am pleased to know that you agree with Howard and me on the interpretation of no self and metta. Because of Howard's wisdom we were able to reach the mutual understanding. ..................... Hi Tep and Howard, I truly appreciate your dialogue and input. Very helpful for Lodewijk. But he said: lately he has less trouble with the issue of metta and no person. Nina. Op 8-feb-2008, om 5:37 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Indeed, it is no longer relevant to ask whether > persons are real, or whether or not there are Howard and Tep (i.e. > the 'no self' idea). By avoiding the misleading issue of "no persons > exist", you effectively remove the seemed-to-be conflict between > kamma, metta, and the "dhamma theory" of the Abhidhamma. ..................... Thank you very much, Nina, Tep === #82417 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 3:48 pm Subject: Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. dhammanusara Dear Jon (Howard, Nina), - Thank you for letting me know that you agree with me that the no-self view of the ariyans does not imply that there are no persons in the real world. .................... > T: I really like what you have described, Jon. It is neater than what > I used to clumsily say (for example, in a recent message to James) > that ariyans can see people and beings the same way worldlings do, > but they do not cling (with upadana) to the aggregates and grasp them as persons or beings. > Jon: I thought the way you put it was exactly right. No wrong view of self; that is indeed the difference between the two. > T: I want to emphasize that "seeing" no persons or beings in the > khandhas is just a right perspective/view/belief that is free from > clinging(upadana); it does not necessarily imply that there are no > persons or beings in the whole wide world. > Jon: Well put. T: It is unusual for us to reach an agreement on such a difficult subject so quickly. :-) Tep === #82418 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 4:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro kenhowardau Hi Nina and all other PBODoubt classmates, Thanks, Nina for setting me straight about the three divisions of time. Had I read ahead, like some of us have been doing, I would have known that. Let alone reading ahead, I am flat out just keeping up with this thread. No doubt I lack stamina, but large chunks of difficult text always have a strange effect on me. Suddenly there is something else that demands my attention and I am out of the room like shot out of a gun. :-) Take for example paragraph 3: ------- 3. To begin with, he considers thus: 'Firstly this mentality- materiality is not causeless, because if that were so, it would follow that[, having no causes to differentiate it,] it would be identical everywhere always and for all. It has no Overlord, etc., because of the non-existence of any Overlord, etc. (Ch.XVI,85), over and above mentality-materiality. And because, if people then argue that mentality-materiality itself is its Overlord, etc., then it follows that their mentality-materiality, which they call the Overlord, etc., would itself be causeless. Consequently there must be a cause and a condition for it. What are they? -------- Now picture me staring blankly at the screen. :-) To me, it's like one of those cryptic crosswords. (BTW, I don't believe people really get those things out!) I tend to rely on Sarah's commentary. For example, I can follow this: ------------------- S: > As was stressed in the last section, by understanding 'mentality and materiality (namas and rupas), there are no longer perceptions of a being or a body except in a conventional sense. So here, when it refers to 'a body (ruupa-kaaya) is born' and so on, it is referring to such rupas , produced from the moment of rebirth consciousness (patisandhi citta)by kamma, with ignorance, craving and clinging as decisive support (upanissaya paccaya) and nutriment (ahara paccaya) sustaining such 'body' rupas. It's the same now as we speak. Without past kammaa, accumulated past ignorance and attachment and nutriment supporting the body from the moment of birth (i.e conception), there would be no no rupas which we take for a body at all now. No Creator or Willer is involved. -------------------- Brilliant! This reminds me of another thread in which people are claiming that the knowledge "there are only dhammas" prevents metta for living beings. They are wrong! It is all there - everything that makes up the concept of living beings can be found in the present reality. Ken H #82419 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 5:09 pm Subject: Vipassana on the Act of Seeing -- was [dsg] Re: WOW ... dhammanusara Hi Jon, - I am surprised that you are the only person who is interested in Mahasi's method for noting nama & rupa that appear through seeing, hearing, ... . > >Mahasi Sayadaw : > At the moment of seeing, if one meditates on the act of seeing, > craving on the object seen will not arise. This is true. Every time > seeing arises, if one notes as 'seeing, seeing' continuously, > craving on the object seen will not arise and there will be no > reflection on it as well. >Jon: In general terms, there is seeing arising for the whole of our waking hours. How do you understand the Venerable's suggestion that one should note 'seeing, seeing' continuously? T: Noting is at the moment a visible object is seen first time (arising). The act of seeing is noted with mindfulness such that the seeing faculty is restraint (with no desire or aversion on the object being seen). Once the mind is unified, calm, and detached from the object, the noting should stop. Same idea for hearing, etc. >Jon: Also, it seems to be implied that the aim of insight development is to prevent the arising of craving on the object. I thought the aim was to come to a better understanding of dhammas (of all kinds, including the aksuala tendencies). T: Yes, the aim is to stop a tide of craving by mindfulness (that is conditioned by noting). This noting practice is essentially a sensing restraint practice for serenity. An understanding/insight-knowledge about the rupa's characteristics (aniccam-dukkham-anattam) come later, after samadhi/samatha (mental unification)has been developed. >Jon: In any event, what about the craving that is also arising at the other five doorways continuously during the day? T: Fortunately, cravings at the other five doors are mutually exclusive with the craving that may arise due to seeing. So you can handle them one at a time. ;-)) Regards, Tep === #82420 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 6:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 4 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for the reminder on how the internal bases are conditions for consciousness in the course of an existence. The main difference between the 5 sensitivities and heart base is that heart base isn't a faculty condition. The conditions are: support, prenascence, faculty, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance. Here is what you had to say about faculty condition in XVII,217 (dsg 80010): Nina: "...In the case of indriya-paccaya, faculty-condition, the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) has leadership, great control, over the conditioned dhammas (paccayupanna dhammas). Indriyas are "leaders" each in their own field." Larry: It is interesting that heart base is considered to have no great leadership over consciousness. Larry #82421 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 2/8/2008 5:00:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, Your post is really funny to me. It seems that I have shocked you somehow. I assure you that I am not being falsely modest or underestimating myself, I really do not fully understand the true nature of the human being (I just wanted to establish that they exist). Let me respond to a few of your comments: Howard: In any case, I think that you wildly underestimate yourself, because can pretty much chew however much you bite. You're a smart guy. James: Well, thank you for the compliment but I'm not that smart. Take for example this quote from the Vism.: And it is inherently difficult to comment on the dependent origination, as the Ancients said: `The truth, A BEING, rebirth-linking, `And the structure of conditions, `Are four things very hard to see `And likewise difficult to teach'. Vism. XVII, 25 --------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, you've become a bigger fan of the Vism than I. ;-) -------------------------------------------- Howard: Also, you do meditate, and I doubt that in your meditating you have ever come across a singular being or have found a self lurking below the constellation of phenomena that is the person. James: Of course I haven't come across "a self" in the course of my meditation. But, you seem to believe that by vipassana meditation, seeing nama and rupa as fleeting phenomenon, one then sees the true nature of `a being'; however, it isn't that simple. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that it isn't. That's why I use the term 'aggregation' instead of 'aggregate'. You know how some business people say "Location, location, location!"? Well, I say "Relation, relation, relation!" ;-) For me, dependent origination and conditionality in general are the heart of the Dhamma. -------------------------------------------- This is what the Buddha taught about dependent origination: "And what is the dependent origination, bhikkhus? With ignorance as condition there are [volitional] formations; with formations as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, mentality-materiality; with mentality-materiality as condition, the sixfold base with the sixfold base as condition, contact; with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, becoming; with becoming as condition, birth; with birth as condition there is ageing-and-death, and sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair; thus there is the arising of this whole mass of suffering." Howard, when you write "the constellation of phenomena that is the person" it makes it sound like mentality-materiality is the person; however, as we can see from dependent origination, that is only one aspect of "the person". The person is not simply a "nama/rupa thing", the person is a process which involves ignorance, consciousness, nama/rupa, sense bases, contact, feeling, craving, becoming, and suffering- and all of these are occurring at exactly the same time. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: We're not in disagreement, James. A person is a kammically engendered and integrated, dynamic, aggregate of interrelated, conditioned, and mutually conditioning, phenomena that work in concert, and *not* just a hodge-podge collection of random things. And a person is most definitely a process. --------------------------------------------------- `A being' is much more complicated than the Abhidhamma paints it out to be. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Not just the Abhidhamma, James, but the Sutta Pitaka as well. But there is good reason for not emphasizing beings so much (except for their deconstruction), and that is the importance of emphasizing their *emptiness*. The aim is to disengage from beings - to see how LITTLE they are rather than how MUCH. Relinquishment is the key. ------------------------------------------ And, to say that a being doesn't exist in the ultimate sense, but does exist in the worldly sense, just doesn't make any sense! :-) A being either exists or it doesn't. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I completely agree. Beings do exist, not "sort of", but actually. But, and, yes - I do insist on this "but," they are aggregations and not single phenomena. Their existence is doubly contingent, depending on their constituents and also upon all the phenomena that conditioned those constituents. Beings are *only* aggregations. Thinking that they are somehow more is an error. What else would they be? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Also, since when have you been willing to accept a simple yes/no answer to a complex and essential question, refusing to consider elaborations that clarify the answer? James: Actually, I believe I have done that a lot. I am a pragmatist. I don't like to spend a lot of time pontificating philosophy and I especially don't like to spend a lot of time conjecturing about things I don't know (like the nature of beings or the nature of nibbana). ------------------------------------------------ Howard: It's not just philosophical exercise. The chariot metaphor was medicine, not metaphysics. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sometimes some folks here will suggest not looking at something too deeply. I think that happens when uncomfortableness sets in. (I know that such is my inclination!) James: I am not really uncomfortable with this subject; I just don't think I am qualified to explain the nature of people (but people do have a nature because they do exist! Of that I am certain.) ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Studying the Dhamma and meditating make you as qualified as any other worldling and more qualified than most. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's not usually your modus operandi, James. I suspect this is a momentary anomaly for you. Please set me straight if I'm wrong. (LOLOL! I have to laugh at myself! Since when would you NOT set me straight!! ;-) James: LOL! Okay, consider yourself set straight! (geez, I must really be a hard-ass! Maybe I need to take some private lessons from Han on gentleness! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- Howard: We all could do that. He's great. :-) ------------------------------------------------ Metta, James ======================== With metta, Howard #82422 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 7:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 2 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "At rebirth kamma produces rupas, and the accumulated ignorance and clinging are the attendants of kamma. They do not actually produce at that moment." Larry: Those are the words I was looking for. Now it makes sense.Thanks very much. Larry #82423 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 7:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro gazita2002 Hello KenH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Nina and all other PBODoubt classmates, > > Thanks, Nina for setting me straight about the three divisions of > time. Had I read ahead, like some of us have been doing, I would have > known that. > > Let alone reading ahead, I am flat out just keeping up with this > thread. No doubt I lack stamina, but large chunks of difficult text > always have a strange effect on me. Suddenly there is something else > that demands my attention and I am out of the room like shot out of a > gun. :-) Take for example paragraph 3: > > ------- > 3. To begin with, he considers thus: 'Firstly this mentality- > materiality is not causeless, because if that were so, it would > follow that[, having no causes to differentiate it,] it would be > identical everywhere always and for all. It has no Overlord, etc., > because of the non-existence of any Overlord, etc. (Ch.XVI,85), over > and above mentality-materiality. And because, if people then argue > that mentality-materiality itself is its Overlord, etc., then it > follows that their mentality-materiality, which they call the > Overlord, etc., would itself be causeless. Consequently there must be > a cause and a condition for it. What are they? > -------- > > Now picture me staring blankly at the screen. :-) To me, it's like > one of those cryptic crosswords. (BTW, I don't believe people really > get those things out!) azita: Dont worry, Ken, I had printed this out and was lying down reading when I had a similar experience, however in my case I fell asleep, great viriya -NOT! Thank you folks, for doing this. I am reading at times, and I do like the Vis. when it is explained like this. am in north thailand at the moment about to travel to Laos. dont know what the state in internetting is like there, again, thank you. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #82424 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 7:46 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (2) gazita2002 Hello Han, the following paragraphs can surely be a cause for one to have great respect for the Buddha. A truely amazing being. Thank you Han, for taking on this task. Hopefully I can keep up with it. patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear All, > > This is the continuation of the Foreward by Ashin > Thitzana to the book titled "Patthaana.? > > ......... #82425 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 8:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (2) hantun1 Dear Azita, Thank you very much for your comments. I hope you will continue to contribute. I now understand your reminder “patience, courage and good cheer” I will try to be that way. With metta and respect, Han --- gazita2002 wrote: > Hello Han, > > the following paragraphs can surely be a cause for > one to have great > respect for the Buddha. A truely amazing being. > Thank you Han, for > taking on this task. Hopefully I can keep up with > it. > > patience, courage and good cheer, > azita > #82426 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro lbidd2 Hi Ken, I couldn't follow this either, but since you brought it up I thought about it for a while and came up with this: 19.3: To begin with, he considers thus: Larry: "He" means "you". Take a serious look at your mind and body and really ask, "what caused this?". 19.3: 'Firstly this mentality- materiality is not causeless, because if that were so, it would follow that[, having no causes to differentiate it,] it would be identical everywhere always and for all. Larry: You might think, what makes things different is causes. Therefore, if there were no causes, there would be no differences. Obviously there are many differences in this mentality-materiality called "Ken". So "Ken" must not be causeless. This is actually quite profound. I don't think it has ever occurred to me that this mentality-materiality called "Larry" is caused. 19.3: It has no Overlord, etc., because of the non-existence of any Overlord, etc. (Ch.XVI,85), over and above mentality-materiality. Larry: If you follow that reference (CH.XVI,85) you will see "knowledge of origin forestalls wrong theories [of causation such as] an Overlord [Creator God]". "Knowledge" and "origin" here mean mundane understanding of the cause of suffering. However, here we aren't necessarily thinking about the cause of suffering, but about any ordinary cause. We know that something caused Ken and Larry, and we know that Ken's email caused Larry's email, so based on that simple understanding of cause and effect we can be pretty sure there isn't a Creator God who caused Larry's email or anything else, including this mentality-materiality called "Ken". 19.3: And because, if people then argue that mentality-materiality itself is its Overlord, etc., then it follows that their mentality-materiality, which they call the Overlord, etc., would itself be causeless. Consequently there must be a cause and a condition for it. What are they? Larry: Someone might think that mentality-materiality is itself a Creator God. But nothing creates the Creator, so thinking mentality-materiality is a Creator God means that mentality-materiality is causeless, which you already established can't be (because differences are caused). So you now know you, the mentality-materiality, are caused by real, ordinary causes. What are they? And so on, and so forth... Larry Disclaimer: All the logic in the world isn't going to convince a true believer there is no Creator God. L. #82427 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 9:09 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. dhammanusara Hi Han, Nina (another friends), - Thank you for continuing to discuss. > Han: > > Since ancient times of Buddha, Buddhist devotees and > > all those who adhere to Buddha's teaching, have > > incorporated the practice of chanting into their > > religious life. As such, chanting, like other forms of > > religious acts, becomes part of religious practice in > > the Buddhist communities. > -------- > N: This also answers your querie to what extent the texts of the > Abhidhamma, and I could add, the whole of the Tipitaka are authentic. > Recently I wrote about my confidence in the method of transferrence by rote. I think that chanting is a way to learn the texts by heart. > Ashin Thitzana knows most of the texts by heart, and still has to > complete the Patthana and the Yamaka, as Jim told me. Jim is now > going to meet him in Singapore, where the Ashin is giving a retreat. ................ T: A firm personal belief on absolute authenticity that is founded wholely on conviction (faith, saddha) is one thing; the truth is another. Only direct knowledge of the Buddha's teachings is the true test of authenticity of the texts for that person. Sincerely, Tep === #82428 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro lbidd2 Hi Ken, I have changed my mind on how to understand that there is no Overlord. Previously in the Visuddhimagga there is a chapter on the faculties and truths. This is actually a stage in the path and concerns, among other things, a basic mundane understanding of the Four Noble Truths. It is said there that understanding that suffering (dukkha) is caused by desire forestalls wrong theories of causation such as an Overlord. So that's it. No need for "Ken's email caused Larry's email". Too weird;-) Larry #82429 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 9:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. dhammanusara Hi Howard, Although I am well aware of uncertainty (anicca), I still can't help feeling good whenever we have an agreeable discussion. Howard: > I thank you for receiving it well. I'm very pleased that you were able to follow my presentation of my understanding. :-) Sometimes it's really hard to communicate one's perspective clearly enough. T: I do not know anyone who can communicate his/her perspective better than you, dear Howard. But the not-self/no-self characteristic of sankhata dhammas is not easy for me to penetrate. This time it may seem so clear to me, but the avijjanusaya is still intact. Best wishes, Tep === #82430 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 7:43 pm Subject: Noble Friendship! bhikkhu0 Friends: Wise Company gives good Advantage: The Blessed Buddha once said: I am a friend and helper to all, I am sympathetic to all living beings. I develop a mind full of love & one who always delight in harmlessness! I gladden my mind, fill it with joy, and make it immovable and unshakable. I develop these divine states of mind not cultivated by simple men. Theragatha 648-9 I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of the bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend of the many-footed. May not the footless harm me, may not the bipeds harm me, may not those with four feet harm me, & may not those with many feet harm me. AN II 72 A friend, who always lends a hand, a friend both in sorrow and joy, a friend who offers good counsel, a friend who sympathizes too. These are the four kinds of true friends: One who is wise, who have understood much, will always cherish and serve such friends just as a mother tends her only child. DN III, 188 Among tigers, lions, leopards & bears I lived in the jungle. No one was frightened of me, nor did I fear anyone. Uplifted by such universal friendliness, I enjoyed the forest. Finding great solace in such sweetly silenced solitude… Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 And how does a Bhikkhu abide with his mind imbued with friendliness extending over one direction? Just as he would feel friendliness on seeing a dearly favourite person, so he extends this same loving-kindness to all beings in all directions, one by one, & as above so below. Abhidhamma Pitaka: Appamañña-vibhanga Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the release of mind by universal friendliness; in shining, glowing and beaming radiance, in invisible shielding protection, such release of mind by universal friendliness far excels & surpasses them all... Itivuttaka 27 <...> All-Embracing Infinite Friendliness! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #82431 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 4:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 2/9/2008 12:39:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Howard, Although I am well aware of uncertainty (anicca), I still can't help feeling good whenever we have an agreeable discussion. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's an interesting translation of anicca. I think of uncertainty or undependability as a consequence of being anicca, but I think of 'anicca' as meaning "impermanent". ------------------------------------------------ Howard: > I thank you for receiving it well. I'm very pleased that you were able to follow my presentation of my understanding. :-) Sometimes it's really hard to communicate one's perspective clearly enough. T: I do not know anyone who can communicate his/her perspective better than you, dear Howard. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thanks, Tep. :-) ------------------------------------------------ But the not-self/no-self characteristic of sankhata dhammas is not easy for me to penetrate. This time it may seem so clear to me, but the avijjanusaya is still intact. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: For all of us, Tep. ---------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Tep ========================== With metta, Howard #82432 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 5:22 pm Subject: the present moment ... and the "dhammas" quagmire TGrand458@... Hi Nina, Sarah, Howard, others.... Nina, I agree with most of what you wrote below. I have no further comments on that post. My main objection with your and others in here approach is over substantiating experiences into "ultimate realities with their own characteristic." The term "dhammas" becomes a "cover" by which a sunstantialist viewpoint is cloaked. There is no need to use a term like "dhammas" since elements or aggregates covers the field. Dhammas, I have see it being used, overlays an almost "philosophical substantialist entification" (entity) upon mere phenomena/experiences. Its usage as I see it -- hides the truth, it does not reveal the truth. The focus of seeing "dhammas" as realities supercedes the more direct (and correct IMO) focus of seeing experiences/phenomena as just -- conditions. Seeing experiences as "conditions" does not substatialize or entify them at all in one way or another. Therefore its a purer and more detached viewpoint IMO. This way, one can be aware of impermanence, but does not read into that impermanent experience that there is "a something" called a "dhamma" that is experienced. For me, there is no need for that type of redundant overlay. That's all for now. TG #82433 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 10:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. hantun1 Dear Tep (and Nina), > > > Text by Ashin Thitzana: Since ancient times of Buddha, Buddhist devotees and all those who adhere to Buddha's teaching, have incorporated the practice of chanting into their religious life. As such, chanting, like other forms of religious acts, becomes part of religious practice in the Buddhist communities. ---------- > > Nina: This also answers your querie to what extent the texts of the Abhidhamma, and I could add, the whole of the Tipitaka are authentic. Recently I wrote about my confidence in the method of transferrence by rote. I think that chanting is a way to learn the texts by heart. Ashin Thitzana knows most of the texts by heart, and still has to complete the Patthana and the Yamaka, as Jim told me. Jim is now going to meet him in Singapore, where the Ashin is giving a retreat. ---------- > Tep: A firm personal belief on absolute authenticity that is founded wholely on conviction (faith, saddha) is one thing; the truth is another. Only direct knowledge of the Buddha's teachings is the true test of authenticity of the texts for that person. ---------- Han: As regards the authenticity, I had already said: “I think this sort of question should better be answered by the Venerable Sayadaws, or by someone who knows better than me. With my very limited knowledge, I am sorry I have no answer for that.” With regard to your last statement above, I do not understand your last sentence. If you have doubts about the authenticity of any text, how can you have direct knowledge of that text? Respectfully, Han #82434 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 10:54 pm Subject: Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 3, no 3. dhammanusara Dear Nina, - Satipatthåna is wonderful, like you said : > Nina: > > The Buddha taught satipatthåna so that the wrong view of self can be eradicated. Through satipatthåna right understanding is developed and without satipatthåna síla cannot become "well established". Tep: The followings sutta quotes describe some of the great benefits of satipatthåna. The last quote [SN 47.40] says that the noble eightfold path is called "the path of practice" to the development of satipatthåna. Why is it so? What is your thought? .......................... [AN Section 7 : Satipatthanavaggo] [Source: Mettanet] "Bhikkhus, these five are the weaknesses in the training. What five? Destroying living things, taking the not given, sexual misbehaviour, telling lies and negligence, taking intoxicating and brewed drinks. Bhikkhus, to dispel these five weaknesses in the training, the four establishments of mindfulness should be developed". ..................................... "Agreeable, pleasant forms cognizable by eye consciousness, ... re ... sounds cognizable by ear consciousness, ... re ... scents cognizable by nose consciousness, ... re ... tastes cognizable by tongue consciousness ... re ... and touches cognizable by body consciousness, arousing fondness and sensual desires. Bhikkhus, to dispel these five strands of sensual pleasure, the four establishments of mindfulness should be developed". ....................................... "Bhikkhus, these five are the bonds(fetters) binding to the sensual world. What five? The view about self, doubts, fixed to virtues and being pulled away from the right path, sensual interest and anger. Bhikkhus, these five are the bonds binding to the sensual world. Bhikkhus, to dispel these five bonds binding to the sensual world, the four establishments of mindfulness should be developed". ....................................... Bhikkhus, these five are the bonds of the higher order. What five? Greed for matter, greed for immaterial states, conceit, over balancing attainments and ignorance. Bhikkhus, these five are the bonds of the higher order. Bhikkhus, to dispel these five bonds of the higher order, the four establishments of mindfulness should be developed". ...................................... "And what is the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference." [Samyutta Nikaya 47.40: Satipatthana-vibhanga Sutta] Tep === #82435 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 11:23 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. dhammanusara Dear friends Han and Nina, - I am glad to be asked to clarify my statements - so that I may correct any misunderstanding. I wrote: A firm personal belief on absolute authenticity that is founded wholely on conviction (faith, saddha) is one thing; the truth is another. Only direct knowledge of the Buddha's teachings is the true test of authenticity of the texts for that person. ---------- And you rightfully asked: Han: With regard to your last statement above, I do not understand your last sentence. If you have doubts about the authenticity of any text, how can you have direct knowledge of that text? ---------- First of all, let us recall the Dhamma's unique characteristics as follows: The Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting all to come and see, pertinent, to be seen by the wise for themselves. [Dhammo sanditthiko akaliko ehipassiko opanayiko paccattam veditabbo vinnuhi.] 'To be seen here & now' is direct knowing that will erase doubts. 'To be seen by the wise for themselves' means not just accepting it by faith, but through direct knowledge make it realizable. There are many suttas, including the Patism, that explain how direct knowledge may arise. Until we attain direct knowledge of the Dhamma, we are not yet "the wise". Please advise. Tep === #82436 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 11:56 pm Subject: Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 6 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Purification by Overcoming Doubt Chapter XIX I. Introductory II. Ways of discerning cause and condition 1. Mentality-materiality is neither causeless nor created by a Maker 2. Its occurrence is always due to conditions 3. General and particular conditions 4. Dependent cessation 5. Dependent origination 6. Kamma and kamma-result ......... S: We're up to the last section mentioned above on Kamma and Vipaka. (I am not including all the detail given in this section). Without the development of satipatthana and keen awareness of various namas and rupas appearing by conditions, it is impossible to understand what kamma and vipaka are, except as just an idea. .... [Kamma and Kamma-Result] 13. Another discerns mentality-materiality's conditions by means of the round of kamma and the round of kamma-result in this way: '(i) In the previous kamma-process becoming there is delusion, which is ignorance; there is accumulation, which is formations; there is attachment, which is craving; there is embracing, which is clinging; there is volition, which is becoming; thus these five things in the previous kamma-process becoming are conditions for rebirth-linking here [in the present becoming]. 'Here [in the present becoming] there is re-birth-linking, which is consciousness; there is descent [into the womb], which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is sense base; there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling; thus these five things here in the [present] rebirth-process becoming have their conditions in kamma done in the past. 'Here [in the present becoming] with the maturing of the bases there is delusion, which is ignorance; there is accumulation, which is formations; there is attachment, which is craving; there is embracing, which is clinging; there is volition, which is becoming; thus these five things here in the [present] kamma-process becoming are conditions for rebirth-linking in the future. 'In the future there is rebirth-linking, which is consciousness; there is descent [into the womb], which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is sense base; there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling; thus these five things in the future rebirth-process becoming have their conditions in kamma done here [in the present becoming]' (Ps.i,52). [601] .... S: Here we have the 3 rounds of kamma, vipaka and kilesa (defilements). Past kamma conditions the rebirth consciousness and vipaka cittas of this life, such as seeing and hearing. On account of such results, further defilements are accumulated because of the tendency for ignorance and attachment. These in turn lead to further kamma which again brings its results in future, according to an intricate set of conditions. ***** 17. The succession of kamma and its result in the twelve classes of kamma is clear in its true nature only to the Buddhas' Knowledge Of Kamma And Its Result, which knowledge is not shared by disciples. {6} But the succession of kamma and its result can be known in part by one practising insight. That is why this explanation of difference in kamma shows only the mere headings. .... S: We will never understand all intricacies of kamma. Only a Buddha could. We know that it was said that speculating on all the intricacies of kamma and its results can lead to madness! **** 18. When he has thus seen by means of the round of kamma and the round of kamma-result how mentality-materiality's occurrence is due to a condition, he sees that as now, so in the past, its occurrence was due to a condition by means of the round of kamma and the round of kamma-result, and that in the future its occurrence will be due to a condition by means of the round of kamma and the round of kamma-result. This is kamma and kamma-result, the round of kamma and the round of kamma-result, the occurrence of kamma and the occurrence of kamma-result, the continuity of kamma and the continuity of kamma-result, action and the fruit of action: Kamma-result proceeds from kamma, Result has kamma for its source, Future becoming springs from kamma, And this is how the world goes round. 19. When he sees thus, he abandons all his uncertainty, that is to say the sixteen kinds described in the way beginning 'Was I in the past?' [see §6]. ***** S: There are only namas and rupas arising and falling away. They arise because of particular conditions at any time and no Self or Being is involved at all. The experiences of visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, and bodily experiences do not arise by good or bad luck, by the actions of other people, but by past kamma. This is why the understanding of kamma leads to a growth in equanimity. The accumulated ignorance, attachment and other defilements which follow on from such results of kamma are what cause all the 'damage'. A moment of vipaka, such as bodily experience, is so very brief. However, it can be followed by many, many moments of attachment or aversion. These accumulate and lead to further akusala kamma and so the rounds go on. Gradually, however, right understanding can develop which directly understands these various dhammas for what they are - mere elements not in anyone's control, performing their various functions. Gradually there is less and less doubt or confusion about kamma, its results and accumulated tendencies. Metta, Sarah ======== #82437 From: han tun Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. hantun1 Dear Tep (and Nina), Please forgive me for my ignorance. But I still have difficulty. There are two aspects here. (1) authenticity of the dhamma. (2) direct knowledge of the dhamma. Now, the question is: Would you consider a dhamma a true authentic dhamma only if you can have direct knowledge of that dhamma? Or, would you be able to have direct knowledge only if that dhamma is authentic? Respectfully, Han #82438 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 2:39 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 237 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 237. Intro: Thus far it has been explained that ignorance conditions kamma- formations, kamma-formations condition consciousness (vipaakacitta), consciousness conditions naama/ruupa (naama are cetasikas), naama/ ruupa condition the six bases (the senses-bases and the mind-base, here vipaakacitta), and the six bases condition contact, in this context contact accompanying vipaakacitta. Furthermore, it was explained that contact conditions feeling, and feeling conditions craving. In the following section it is explained in which way feeling conditions craving. ---------- Text Vis. 237: What is intended here is but Resultant pleasant feeling; hence 'Tis a condition in one way For all this craving's occurrence. 'In one way': it is a condition as decisive-support condition only. ----------- N: According to the teachers of the Mahaavihaara resultant pleasant feeling conditions craving (Commentary to the Brahmajaalasutta, under: the round of Conditions and Emancipation from the Round, page 211, transl. by Ven. Bodhi). Buddhaghosa was dwelling in the Mahaavihaara, Anuraadhapura. We read in this Commentary that according to other teachers, all kinds of contact and feeling should be recognized. Thus, not only resultant contact and feeling. Decisive support is one primary condition by which feeling conditions craving, but it is not the only one. The Tiika to the Vis. 237 also mentions the simple object-condition (aaramma.namatta) for the craving that is arising. It states that the decisive support condition of object is included in upanissaya paccaya, decisive support-condition. There are three kinds of decisive support-condition: decisive support of object, aaramma.nuupanissaya-paccaya, decisive support of proximity, anantaruupanissaya-paccaya, and natural decisive support- condition, pakatuupanissaya-paccaya. The Tiika states that here in this context feeling does not condition craving by way of natural decisive support-condition. We read in the Sub-commentary to the Brahmajaalasutta that feeling is a condition for craving under the crest (ko.ti) of decisive support- condition. Crest, ko.ti, means “the principal member of a group of factors, all of which should be implied under the key-term”, as Ven. Bodhi explains. This Subcommentary text states by way of question and answer: In the case of object predominance-condition the desirable object is highly esteemed by the citta and cetasikas concerned so that they give preponderance to it. In the case of decisive support-condition of object the desirable object is a powerful inducement, a cogent reason, for the arising of the citta and cetasikas concerned, which are strongly dependent on that object. Desirable objects which are object predominance-condition can also, at the same time, be decisive support-condition of object, a powerful inducement for the arising of the cittas concerned. ------- Conclusion: Resultant pleasant feeling is a powerful inducement, a cogent reason for craving. When the temperature is very agreeable, not too hot or too cold, it conditions pleasant bodily feeling accompanying vipaakacitta. This pleasant bodily feeling is a powerful inducement for craving. Thus, when there are conditions for craving it arises before we even realize it. This shows us the nature of anattaa of craving. ----------- Nina. #82439 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 2:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. nilovg Dear Tep, Han, Howard, This coincides with Howard's post about faith in the Abhidhamma and its verification. Instead of Abhidhamma this goes also for the whole of the Tipitaka. I am just trying to answer this one which may be of some help. Nina. Op 9-feb-2008, om 6:09 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > A firm personal belief on absolute authenticity that is founded > wholely on conviction (faith, saddha) is one thing; the truth is > another. Only direct knowledge of the Buddha's teachings is the true > test of authenticity of the texts for that person. #82440 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 3:40 am Subject: Re: verification of the Abhidhamma. nilovg Dear Howard, Tep, and Han, Op 1-feb-2008, om 18:16 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina, I am looking forward to your next reply to Howard how > you have verified for yourself "what is in the Abhidhamma". Your real > experience with the Abhidhamma will benefit several members, > including me, who only know what is in the Suttanta Pitaka. --------- > Howard: You are substituting faith for knowledge, Nina. > Have you directly verified Abhidhammic material and the commentarial > psychology? I know you strongly believe it to be true. That is not > verification. When you say it is life, all that comes down to is > your faith that it is a correct description of reality that can be > verified. But you have not directly verified it. It is belief, > > Nina, not uncontestable fact. > > --------------------------------------------------------- > N: I have not verified directly the Abhidhamma through insight. > Still, one can still verify it. There are levels of verifying. It > is not just acceptance by following teachers, not blind faith, but > confidence based on a degree of understanding. If it were not possible to verify it to an extent, I would not find it worth while to study it. Not all realities in all classifications can be verified by a beginner, but there are simple facts of life in the Abhidhamma and these we can verify as we meet them. I came into contact with the Abhidhamma through Kh Sujin in a simple, direct way, in the situations of daily life when going around with her to different temples, or being in a restaurant. It is described in 'My Time with Acharn Sujin'. < I learnt that whatever occurs is conditioned; that good and bad inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and that these condition our behaviour. Everything I learnt was relevant to daily life. An example: we visited a bhikkhu who smiled when I told him about my interest in the teachings. Acharn Sujin asked me whether I knew why he smiled. She explained that this was because of happy feeling, somanassa. This sounds very simple, but it made me realize that feeling conditions our outward appearance.> This is classified in the text as citta that produces rupa, cittajarupa. We see a name in the text, we see a classification. But actually it is so simple, it occurs in life. Quote: Again, so simple, you may even find it too simple. But is this not a verification? Not merely thinking about the theory? Thinking of concepts? Hardness appears, also now. Perhaps people see the Abhidhamma as being too complicated, they see it in a theoretical way. Another thing: when having lunch together she said: "you better eat well, you have to drive the car. Food is like a medicin." This had never occurred to me before, all those things she said were new to me. In the book we find: nutrition condiitons or produces rupas of the body, these are ahaaraja ruupa. See, a name, but it is real life and can be verified. She explained to me about lobha arising in our life. Even expectations are lobha, and I did not know this before. Hoping for something, expecting something is lobha. Quote: < She kept on warning us of subtle clinging to progress, to result. Expectations are lobha, attachment. She repeated many times: “Don’t expect anything”. We should not expect anything from ourselves nor from others. Expectations bring sorrow.> We were preparing printing proofs of my BDL, and we did not hear from the printer. I asked Kh Sujin about this and she said: "No news". She taught this as a lesson that what we experience is due to conditions. I also learnt that expecting other people to be kind is lobha. Knoing this helps to have more equanimity. Quote: < I began to know that laughing is conditioned by lobha, and this made me feel somewhat uneasy when laughing. I had an idea of wanting to suppress laughing. Lobha again! Acharn Sujin explained that we should behave very naturally, and not force ourselves not to laugh: “Just do everything that you are used to doing, but in between right understanding can be developed”. “We have to know our good moments and our worst moments in a day”, she said.> These are some examples, and for me it is evident that many of the cittas and cetasikas can be verified, since they occur now in our daily life. Also conditions (not all) can be verified. Are these examples sufficient? Nina. #82441 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > I couldn't follow this either, but since you brought it up I thought > about it for a while and came up with this: > > 19.3: To begin with, he considers thus: > > Larry: "He" means "you". Take a serious look at your mind and body and > really ask, "what caused this?". > Hi Larry, Thanks for your good work. I have just a slight disagreement at this early stage: I don't like to direct my attention to 'me' 'Ken H' 'my body and mind.' I know the Visuddhimagga is saying "he considers thus" but I take that to mean "a monk - someone who is considering correctly - considers thus." More specifically still, 'panna performs its functions thus." ------------------------ <. . .> L: > 19.3: It has no Overlord, etc., because of the non-existence of any Overlord, etc. (Ch.XVI,85), over and above mentality-materiality. Larry: If you follow that reference (CH.XVI,85) you will see "knowledge of origin forestalls wrong theories [of causation such as] an Overlord [Creator God]". "Knowledge" and "origin" here mean mundane understanding of the cause of suffering. ------------------------- OK, thanks, so it is not just saying 'it has no Overlord because there is no Overlord.' It is saying 'the knowledge of cause includes the knowledge of "no Overlord."' ------------------ L: > However, here we aren't necessarily thinking about the cause of suffering, but about any ordinary cause. <. . .> L: > I have changed my mind on how to understand that there is no Overlord. Previously in the Visuddhimagga there is a chapter on the faculties and truths. This is actually a stage in the path and concerns, among other things, a basic mundane understanding of the Four Noble Truths. It is said there that understanding that suffering (dukkha) is caused by desire forestalls wrong theories of causation such as an Overlord. ----------------- That's good enough for me, too. I could ask at what "stage in the path" is there understanding of the second noble truth, but that would sidetrack the thread too much. Some other time! Ken H #82442 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 5:20 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 38 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 506. "Amatamhi vijjamaane, ki.m tava kaamehi ye pari.laahaa; sabbaa hi kaamaratiyo, jalitaa kuthitaa kampitaa santaapitaa. 504. "When the undying exists, what do you want with sensual pleasures that are burning fevers? For all delights in sensual pleasures are on fire, scorching, seething, aglow. Ye pari.laahaati ye kaamaa sampati kilesapari.laahena aayati.m vipaakapari.laahena ca sapari.laahaa mahaavighaataa. Jalitaa kuthitaa kampitaa santaapitaati ekaadasahi aggiihi pajjalitaa pakkuthitaa ca hutvaa ta.msama"ngiina.m kampanakaa santaapanakaa ca. 504. That are burning fevers (pari.laahaa) means: that are the sensual pleasures now through the burning fevers of the defilements (kilesa-pari.laahena) and connected with burning fevers (sapari.laahaa), being of great destruction, in the future through the burning fevers of resultant states (vipaaka-pari.laahena). On fire (jalitaa), scorching (kuthitaa), seething (kampitaa), aglow (santaapitaa) means: endowed with burning (santaapa-nakaa), seething (kampanakaa), through the eleven fires that are blazing (pajjalitaa) and boiling hot (pakkuthitaa) coming into existence. 507. "Asapattamhi samaane, ki.m tava kaamehi ye bahusapattaa; raajaggicora-udakappiyehi, saadhaara.naa kaamaa bahusapattaa. 505. "When there is no enemy, what do you want with sensual pleasures that have many enemies? Being similare to kings, fire, thieves, water, and unfriendly people, they have many enemies. Asapattamhiiti sapattarahite nekkhamme. Samaaneti sante vijjamaane. "Bahusapattaa"ti vatvaa yehi bahuu sapattaa, te dassetu.m "raajaggii"ti-aadi vutta.m. Raajuuhi ca agginaa ca corehi ca udakena ca daayaadaadi-appiyehi ca raajaggicora-udakappiyehi saadhaara.nato tesvevopamaa vuttaa. 505. [When there is] no enemy (asapattamhi) means: [when there is] absence of an enemy (sapatta-rahite) in renunciation. When there is (samaane) means: when there is (sante) that being so (vijjamaane). Many enemies (bahu-sapattaa), means: having said that, ings, fire, etc, is said to indicate who those many enemies (bahuu sapattaa) are. Kings (raajuuhi) and fires (agginaa) and thieves (corehi) and water (udakena) and unfriendly people such as heirs (daayaadaadi-appiyehi), kings, fire, thieves, water, and unfriendly people (raaj'-aggi-cora-udak'-appiyehi), [this] is said because of the similarity between them, the way they are alike. 508. "Mokkhamhi vijjamaane, ki.m tava kaamehi yesu vadhabandho; kaamesu hi asakaamaa, vadhabandhadukhaani anubhonti. 506. "When release exists, what do you want with sensual pleasures in which are slaughter and bonds? For in sensual pleasures through inferior sensual pleasure, people suffer the pains of slaughter and bonds. Yesu vadhabandhoti yesu kaamesu kaamanimitta.m mara.napothanaadiparikkileso andubandhanaadibandho ca hotiiti attho. Kaamesuuti-aadi vuttassevatthassa paaka.takara.na.m. Tattha hiiti hetu-atthe nipaato. Yasmaa kaamesu kaamahetu ime sattaa vadhabandhanadukkhaani anubhavanti paapu.nanti, tasmaa aaha- "asakaamaa"ti, kaamaa naamete asanto hiinaa laamakaati attho. "Ahakaamaa"ti vaa paa.tho, so evattho. Ahaati hi laamakapariyaayo "ahalokitthiyo naamaa"ti-aadiisu viya. 506. In which are slaughter and bonds means: in which sensual pleasures, on account of the sensual pleasures, there is punishment consisting of death through beatings, etc, and bonds such as being bound in stocks. That is the meaning. In sensual pleasures, etc, makes clear the meaning of what is said. There, hi (for) is a particle in the sense of cause. Since these beings suffer (anughavanti = [anubhonti]), arrive at, the pains of slaughter and bonds in sensual pleasures (kaamesu), with sensual pleasures as the cause (kaama-hetu), she threfore says: through inferior sensual pleasure (asa-kaamaa), which means: these sensual pleasures are not good, are base, are bad. That is the meaning. There is also the reading aha-kaamaa. And that has the same meaning. For the word aha means "of bad habit" in such phrases as, "indeed, the world's women are base." .. to be continued, connie #82443 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 5:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. dhammanusara Dear Han, No, you are not ignorant; but, of course, I am ! Your "difficulty" may be caused by a misunderstanding. How could I ever doubt the Dhamma (teachings)? I would not be a Buddhist, if I had such a doubt. So first of all, let me correct your "first aspect" to be as follows : (1) authenticity of the Patthana book or record keeping. Now let me entertain you further. :-) >Han: > Now, the question is: > Would you consider a dhamma a true authentic dhamma > only if you can have direct knowledge of that dhamma? > > Or, would you be able to have direct knowledge only if > that dhamma is authentic? T: I assume your "dhamma" means Dhamma (Buddha's teachings). It does not make sense to say that a dhamma (phenomenon, reality, truth) like a 'dhatu' or a 'khandha' is not authentic. The "dhammas" and "dhamma theory" alwats exist even during the time periods where there was no Buddha, hence no Patthana. Right? Sincerely, Tep === #82444 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 5:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. dhammanusara Dear Nina (Attn: Han), - You kindly wrote: > > Dear Tep, Han, Howard, > This coincides with Howard's post about faith in the Abhidhamma and > its verification. Instead of Abhidhamma this goes also for the whole > of the Tipitaka. I am just trying to answer this one which may be of > some help. > Nina. T: Right, and it shows that you understand what I wrote earlier: Tep: > > A firm personal belief on absolute authenticity that is founded > > wholely on conviction (faith, saddha) is one thing; the truth is > > another. Only direct knowledge of the Buddha's teachings is the true > > test of authenticity of the texts for that person. > > T: I believe that you know that I was impersonal and considering the issue of authenticity of Patthana in a general way --i.e. having no vicious intention to irritate Han, to act smart, or to criticize the Buddha's Abhidhamma. Thank you very much for your understanding! Tep === #82445 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 5:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Jon, > ... > >> Just staying with the original point for a moment, within any >> particular stream of bhavanga cittas the whole range of >> experience and emotions arises. Thus, painful bodily feeling, >> the seeing of which in another person may condition the >> arising of karuna (compassion) on our part >> towards the other person, is experienced by the body-door consciousness >> that arises in between the bhavanga cittas that are conceptualised as >> the other person. And so on. > > This doesn't make any sense. Try to explain metta to me without using > the words: person, human being, or being. > Not quite sure what you mean. As has been mentioned many times before, the object of metta citta is always (the concept of) a person or being, and not a paramattha dhamma. So I think any explanation of metta will include reference to a person or being. But the question we've been discussing in this thread, I think, is whether or not that means that a person or being must be real in the ultimate sense. In an earlier post, I gave the answer to that question as 'No'. The explanation is as follows: Although the enlightened being has eradicated all idea of a 'self', he still thinks in terms of persons, places and things; but he does so with the appreciation that these are terms or concepts (conventional designations) only, without any reality in the ultimate sense. Jon #82446 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 6:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. dhammanusara Hi Dear friend Han, - I was typing too fast, so I made a few typos. A bad sentence: The "dhammas" and "dhamma theory" alwats exist even during the time periods where there was no Buddha, hence no Patthana. Right? Corrected sentence: The "dhammas" and "dhamma theory" always exist even during the time periods when there was no Buddha, hence no Patthana. Right? Thanks. Tep ==== #82447 From: han tun Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 6:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, Tep: So first of all, let me correct your "first aspect" to be as follows: (1) authenticity of the Patthana book or record keeping. Han: If your doubt of authenticity is with Patthaana, I have nothing more to say, because I do not know much about Patthaana myself. It is because I do not know much about Patthaana I have selected to write about it. In that way I hope to learn more as I go on writing. Respectfully, Han #82448 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 6:38 am Subject: Re: verification of the Abhidhamma. dhammanusara Dear Nina (and Howard), - Thank you for the post #82440 in which you gave several examples how you had verified "simple facts of life in the Abhidhamma" during the various occasions you were with your teacher. You admitted that these were not direct verifications of the Abhidhamma through insight. I understand that, and I agree with the very good point you made as follows: N: "Not all realities in all classifications can be verified by a beginner, but there are simple facts of life in the Abhidhamma and these we can verify as we meet them". T: Frankly, I had expected the kinds of verifications beyond the beginner level, especially from the world-famous Abhidhamma scholar Nina von Gorkom, when I wrote: > Dear Nina, I am looking forward to your next reply to Howard how > you have verified for yourself "what is in the Abhidhamma". Your > real experience with the Abhidhamma will benefit several members, > including me, who only know what is in the Suttanta Pitaka. But I am not disappointed by your simple verifications because they are all good. Admittedly, however I did not learn much from these simple cases. Instead, what I've learnt the most is about you -- a unique person with zero pretense, very kind, optimistic, calm, and dedicated and very respectful to her teacher. I have not met anyone like you, Nina. Khun Sujin is a lucky teacher. Sincerely & respectfully, Tep === #82449 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 7:04 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 3, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Different kinds of kusala have been classified as the ten bases of meritorious deeds and these can be developed in daily life. These include three kinds of dåna: giving away useful things to others, appreciating the kusala of others, and extending merit, which means: making known one’s kusala to others, no matter whether they are alive or have passed away to another plane where they are able to rejoice in one’s kusala. Moreover, they include three kinds of síla: abstaining from akusala, helping others and paying respect to others. Then there is bhåvanå, which includes: studying or explaining the Dhamma, samatha and vipassanå. Furthermore, the tenth base is rectifying one’s views (ditthujukamma). This is connected with all other kinds of kusala and there are different degrees of it. One degree of rectifying one’s views is knowing the value of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. Another level is understanding that one can eliminate akusala by means of generosity, síla and other good deeds. Another degree is knowing that one can subdue defilements by developing calm and another level is understanding that paññå can be developed with the purpose to eradicate defilements. The ten bases of meritorious deeds show us that there are always opportunities for kusala in daily life. When we read in the texts about calm we should not forget that there are many kinds and degrees of calm. Calm does not only pertain to the calm of jhåna, but also to calm that accompanies the different ways of kusala performed in daily life, dåna, síla and bhåvanå, mental development. We read in the subcommentary to the Satipatthånasutta (M.N. 10) about meditation subjects that can condition calm in daily life: “The words, the meditation subjects on all occasions, mean: recollection of the Buddha, loving-kindness, mindfulness of death, and meditation of foulness. This set of four meditations which is guarded by the yogi (practitioner), he called ‘the meditation subjects on all occasions’. They should be guarded by the power of thorough comprehension, uninterruptedly, with sati that is called samatha, calm, because of its being included in the group of concentration, samaadhi.” The factors of the eightfold Path can be classified as three divisions: as wisdom, síla and samådhi, concentration or calm. Right understanding and right thinking constitute the wisdom of the eightfold Path, right speech, action and livelihood the síla of the eightfold Path, and sati, right effort and right concentration the calm of the eightfold Path. The factors of the eightfold Path are developed together. When right understanding develops, also calm develops together with it. The four meditation subjects mentioned above are very suitable for daily life, for all occasions (sabbatthika). There may be conditions for their arising, but one should not cling to such moments. When calm arises there can be awareness and right understanding of it as a type of nåma. Kusala, akusala, all types of dhammas arise because of their own conditions and nobody can make them arise or prevent them from arising. ******* Nina. #82450 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 7:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: verification of the Abhidhamma. nilovg Dear Tep, thanks for your kind words, and what you say about me is too favorable. DC made a good point in the beginning, saying that one never knows someone else's mind. It is changeable, anyway and dependent on conditions. Who knows the other person's latent tendencies? One does not even know them oneself. So, I could not tell whether someone else realizes the truth directly or does not realize it, whether someone else knows the difference between sati and thinking or not. Many things I said you knew already, being brought up in Thailand, I believe? But for me, all those things I learnt were completely new. It was quite a discovery for me. Nina. Op 9-feb-2008, om 15:38 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > But I am not disappointed by your simple verifications because they > are all good. Admittedly, however I did not learn much from these > simple cases. #82451 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: verification of the Abhidhamma. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/9/2008 6:40:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: An example: we visited a bhikkhu who smiled when I told him about my interest in the teachings. Acharn Sujin asked me whether I knew why he smiled. She explained that this was because of happy feeling, somanassa. This sounds very simple, but it made me realize that feeling conditions our outward appearance.> This is classified in the text as citta that produces rupa, cittajarupa. We see a name in the text, we see a classification. But actually it is so simple, it occurs in life. ============================= Yes, that's good, Nina - an important reminder. What is best - and it can follow in the wake of such a reminder - is to develop the habit of ongoing mindfulness so that one directly *sees* the conditionality in action, making the cognitive connection of condition to effect in an "aha" moment. With metta, Howard #82452 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: verification of the Abhidhamma. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/9/2008 6:40:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: These are some examples, and for me it is evident that many of the cittas and cetasikas can be verified, since they occur now in our daily life. Also conditions (not all) can be verified. Are these examples sufficient? ============================== I need no convincing that careful observation reveals conditionality and confirms the Dhamma [and Dhamma, while fundamentally and originally found in the Sutta Pitaka, is extant throughout the Tipitaka], but the practice of mindfulness is essential so that the saddha of confidence born out of direct experience is the saddha we have rather than the saddha of faith born out of belief and preference. With metta, Howard #82453 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 7:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro lbidd2 Hi Ken, Here are a few responses: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@ wrote: > > > > Hi Ken, > > > > I couldn't follow this either, but since you brought it up I thought > > about it for a while and came up with this: > > > > 19.3: To begin with, he considers thus: > > > > Larry: "He" means "you". Take a serious look at your mind and body > and > > really ask, "what caused this?". > > > > > Hi Larry, > > Thanks for your good work. I have just a slight disagreement at this > early stage: I don't like to direct my attention to 'me' 'Ken H' 'my > body and mind.' > > I know the Visuddhimagga is saying "he considers thus" but I take > that to mean "a monk - someone who is considering correctly - > considers thus." More specifically still, 'panna performs its > functions thus." > > ------------------------ Larry: "Someone who considers correctly" can't be us if we regard this as conventional learning. A large section of the Visuddhimagga is taken up with conventional learning, learning the concepts. This includes the chapters on the khandhas and dependent arising. But once the concepts are learned the truth of those concepts begins to dawn in our own life, here and now. This means you and me sitting at our computers, not some hypothetical monk. > <. . .> > L: > 19.3: It has no Overlord, etc., because of the non-existence of > any Overlord, etc. (Ch.XVI,85), over and above mentality-materiality. > > Larry: If you follow that reference (CH.XVI,85) you will > see "knowledge of origin forestalls wrong theories [of causation such > as] an Overlord [Creator God]". "Knowledge" and "origin" here mean > mundane understanding of the cause of suffering. > ------------------------- > > OK, thanks, so it is not just saying 'it has no Overlord because > there is no Overlord.' It is saying 'the knowledge of cause includes > the knowledge of "no Overlord."' > Larry: I didn't take this seriously enough when I made this reply. I think it means understanding, even if only conceptually, the Truth of the Cause of Suffering (Dukkha) prevents believing in ideas such as "God caused this suffering". You, Ken, don't believe God causes suffering because you understand the Four Noble Truths. Because of that it makes sense that God didn't cause this namarupa called "Ken". > ------------------ > L: > However, here we aren't necessarily thinking > about the cause of suffering, but about any ordinary cause. <. . .> > > L: > I have changed my mind on how to understand that there is no > Overlord. Previously in the Visuddhimagga there is a chapter on the > faculties and truths. This is actually a stage in the path and > concerns, among other things, a basic mundane understanding of the > Four Noble Truths. It is said there that understanding that suffering > (dukkha) is caused by desire forestalls wrong theories of causation > such as an Overlord. > ----------------- > > That's good enough for me, too. I could ask at what "stage in the > path" is there understanding of the second noble truth, but that > would sidetrack the thread too much. Some other time! Larry: I think it is important. If you look at the Visuddhimagga there is a large section of purely conceptual information: Supernormal Powers, Other Direct-Knowledges, the Aggregates, Bases and Elements, Faculties and Truths, and Dependent Origination. This is what is called "the soil of understanding". It isn't insight at this stage. It is just learning the concepts. Nina is leading us through this little by little with her detailed analysis of the aggregates and dependent arising. On this level the Four Noble Truths, including the Truth of Cause of Dukkha, is part of this "soil of understanding". But now that we have entered the study of insight we could start taking these concepts seriously and see if anything comes up. Am I really namarupa? That's a real question. No need to avoid the question by putting up a firewall of conceptual understanding. Instead, let the conceptual understanding nourish real understanding. But first we have to ask the question in a serious, non-theoretical, way. > > Ken H > Larry #82454 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 8:25 am Subject: Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. dhammanusara Hi Howard, - This dialogue was one day and about 20 messages ago. > >Tep: Although I am well aware of uncertainty (anicca), I still can't help feeling good whenever we have an agreeable discussion. >Howard: That's an interesting translation of anicca. I think of uncertainty or undependability as a consequence of being anicca, but I think of 'anicca' as meaning "impermanent". ------------------------------------------------ I know that uncertainty isn't a formal translation of anicca. The word 'uncertainty' here implies "producing uncertain outcome". Now we agree on something, but if the discussion goes on five more minutes we might no longer agree on what we agreed earlier! To say "a discussion outcome is impermanent" doesn't sound as meaningful in this situation. Don't you think so? Regards, Tep === #82455 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 4:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 2/9/2008 11:25:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Howard, - This dialogue was one day and about 20 messages ago. > >Tep: Although I am well aware of uncertainty (anicca), I still can't help feeling good whenever we have an agreeable discussion. >Howard: That's an interesting translation of anicca. I think of uncertainty or undependability as a consequence of being anicca, but I think of 'anicca' as meaning "impermanent". ------------------------------------------------ I know that uncertainty isn't a formal translation of anicca. The word 'uncertainty' here implies "producing uncertain outcome". Now we agree on something, but if the discussion goes on five more minutes we might no longer agree on what we agreed earlier! To say "a discussion outcome is impermanent" doesn't sound as meaningful in this situation. Don't you think so? ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I get your point, though I would sooner say "undependability" than "uncertainty," but both do apply. The uncertainty of outcome is primarily due to our having insufficient knowledge of relevant conditions and conditionality in the context of change. We can't rely on or depend upon what doesn't last exactly in the sense that it *doesn't* last and we don't know precisely when the (final) cessation will occur and what will supplant what is current. To use a very mundane example: We can't depend on what has been the ongoing increase in the value of a highly performing stock, because change happens. Moreover, there is always change in government policy, often arbitrary, to contend with. So, the fact of impermanence and change (the latter especially in the case of aggregations) in the presence of incomplete information yields undependability and uncertainty. ----------------------------------------------------- Regards, Tep ============================ With metta, Howard #82456 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 9:16 am Subject: The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: J: "Okay, well if you think that monks don't exist we don't really have anything to discuss. I'm not sure why you posted to me in the first place??" Scott: You've not addressed what I thought was the central argument I was making in the last post. I'd prefer to stay away from discussions of 'person' with you. I think Jon has answered you adequately. I share his view on this. In the case of going forth, I was speculating about the role of the cetasika adhimokkha in supporting an impulsion to become a monk. The question seems to be what sort of mental factors would combine to condition the going forth. I am suggesting that not all decisions to enter monkhood are kusala. The decision, for example, of one who thinks he has something to teach and ordains for this purpose is likely supported and conditioned by akusala factors. This being the case, becoming a monk could not possibly automatically transform consciousness such that a monk newly ordained is 'a teacher' worthy of learning from. As I also mentioned, the Sangha of the Triple Gem consists of the ariya puggala - not just any monk - and this therefore does not refer to persons but designates consciouness which has been altered by the arising of the Path and Fruit. That any monk is worthy of respect is not the question here. I am considering the mental factors which might be in place to motivate the desire to be ordained. Sincerely, Scott. #82457 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 10:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: verification of the Abhidhamma. dhammanusara Dear Nina (and anyone else), - Please allow me to respectfully disagree with you with respect to your view on judging someone else's virtue and other characteristics. > Nina: DC made a good point in the beginning, saying that one > never knows someone else's mind. It is changeable, anyway and > dependent on conditions. Who knows the other person's latent > tendencies? One does not even know them oneself. T: We cannot know someone's monkey mind exactly and will always have a hard time predicting his/her behavior. But in case of a person of integrity who is consistent, virtuous, reliable, law-abiding and religious, we surely can predict his/her actions and intention quite accurately. You may say that good people is easier to read than a crooked one ! AN 4.192 confirms my belief as follows: 'It's through living together that a person's virtue may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning'. 'It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning' [AN 4.192] ................ >N: So, I could not tell whether someone else realizes the truth directly or does not realize it, whether someone else knows the difference between sati and thinking or not. T: No, you cannot read someone's mind in a given moment, but you can tell about his/her average behavior and quality/virtue through careful observation over a long period of time, like the Buddha said in AN 4.192 above. That is statistics (the rule of averaging), not abhidhammic single-moment interpretation. ................ > N: Many things I said you knew already, being brought up in Thailand, I believe? But for me, all those things I learnt were completely new. It was quite a discovery for me. T: You are right about my Thai upbringing. But your way of learning should bring higher benefits from no clinging to the Eastern customs, traditions and myths. Tep === #82458 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 10:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. dhammanusara Dear Howard, - You have a way with words. >Howard: I get your point, though I would sooner say "undependability" than "uncertainty," but both do apply. The uncertainty of outcome is primarily due to our having insufficient knowledge of relevant conditions and conditionality in the context of change. We can't rely on or depend upon what doesn't last exactly in the sense that it *doesn't* last and we don't know precisely when the (final) cessation will occur and what will supplant what is current. To use a very mundane example: We can't depend on what has been the ongoing increase in the value of a highly performing stock, because change happens. Moreover, there is always change in government policy, often arbitrary, to contend with. So, the fact of impermanence and change (the latter especially in the case of aggregations) in the presence of incomplete information yields undependability and uncertainty. ----------------------------------------------------- T: Very well said ! Thanks for clearly contrasting 'undependability' to 'uncertainty' and also showing how they both characterize anicca. They are undesirable and lead to dukkha, e.g. losing money in the stock markets. Tep === #82459 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 11:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Not quite sure what you mean. As has been mentioned many times before, > the object of metta citta is always (the concept of) a person or being, James: A "concept" is something which does not literally exist. A concept is something which is just invented in the mind with no corresponding reality outside of the mind. Sorry, but I don't think that people are just concepts. I don't know how many different ways I can state this. > In an earlier post, I gave the answer to that question as 'No'. The > explanation is as follows: Although the enlightened being has > eradicated all idea of a 'self', he still thinks in terms of persons, > places and things; but he does so with the appreciation that these are > terms or concepts (conventional designations) only, without any reality > in the ultimate sense. James: So, you are saying that enlightened beings are delusional in that they think in terms of people but don't imagine that those people really exist. So, enlightenment is a state of ongoing hallucination? > > Jon > Metta, James #82460 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. nilovg Dear Tep and Han, Op 9-feb-2008, om 14:47 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > I believe that you know that I was impersonal and considering the > issue of authenticity of Patthana in a general way --i.e. having no > vicious intention to irritate Han, to act smart, or to criticize the > Buddha's Abhidhamma. ------ N: Of course, no misunderstanding. But I would say to Han: it is very good if you can also quote from your Burmese book. And let us think of as many examples of conditions in daily life as possible. Then it will be a lively study of Patthaana. Nina #82461 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 11:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 3, no 3. nilovg Dear Tep, I could not find your annotation in my PTS edition. I would like to see another translation. Nina. Op 9-feb-2008, om 7:54 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > The followings sutta quotes describe some of the great benefits > of satipatthåna. The last quote [SN 47.40] says that the noble > eightfold path is called "the path of practice" to the development of > satipatthåna. Why is it so? #82462 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 11:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. scottduncan2 Dear Jon (and James), If I may interpose a question: J: "...In an earlier post, I gave the answer to that question as 'No'. The explanation is as follows: Although the enlightened being has eradicated all idea of a 'self', he still thinks in terms of persons, places and things; but he does so with the appreciation that these are terms or concepts (conventional designations) only, without any reality in the ultimate sense." Scott: In my own case I have a solid 'ordinary person's' intellectual grasp of the above, i.e., that 'persons, places and things' are conventional designations. There is no problem making sense of this. To me, this would suggest that I 'appreciate that these are terms or concepts'. I simply don't have the same sort of conceptual difficulty others find themselves in the midst of with regards to notions of person. In this matter, based on ongoing discussion here, it is so clear that some 'get it' while others seem unable to. And, further, this intellectual understanding seems almost non-transferable. As Larry is discussing elsewhere, the intellectual grasp is the 'soil' out of which a greater sort of non-intellectual appreciation grows. What do you think is/are the factor/s which allow/s for the arising of a given intellectual grasp of this matter? In other words, let's assume you and I are correct in our intellectual evaluation of the matter. What factors contribute to the situation where some can easily understand that there is no person, while others cannot? Sincerely, Scott. #82463 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 11:29 am Subject: The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thanks for the reply: > > J: "Okay, well if you think that monks don't exist we don't really > have anything to discuss. I'm not sure why you posted to me in the > first place??" > > Scott: You've not addressed what I thought was the central argument I > was making in the last post. James: Sorry if I cut you off but I don't know who we could discuss monks (people who have gone forth) if you don't want to discuss "people". It just gets absurd. But, I will try to address some points which I can address without talking about "people" :-). > > I'd prefer to stay away from discussions of 'person' with you. I > think Jon has answered you adequately. I share his view on this. James: Okay, fine. Then maybe you and Jon should chat with each other since I can't possibly discuss people as being unreal. > > In the case of going forth, I was speculating about the role of the > cetasika adhimokkha in supporting an impulsion to become a monk. The > question seems to be what sort of mental factors would combine to > condition the going forth. I am suggesting that not all decisions to > enter monkhood are kusala. The decision, for example, of one who > thinks he has something to teach and ordains for this purpose is > likely supported and conditioned by akusala factors. James: Okay, I would agree with this. The Buddha also taught that some become monks for the wrong reasons: to escape debt, to have food to eat everyday, to be respected, etc. But, what is your point? Are you saying that because there are some bad monks that all monks are bad? How do you know which monks are bad or not? It is tradition that one donates to "the robe", not the person. Scott, you won't understand this, but it doesn't really matter the mental state of the monk. You can still learn more about the Dhamma by being in the presence of monks (some good and some bad). > > This being the case, becoming a monk could not possibly automatically > transform consciousness such that a monk newly ordained is 'a teacher' > worthy of learning from. James: He/she is a teacher simply but being a monk! He/she doesn't even have to open his mouth and you can learn the Dhamma in his presence. How? Well, first you could try to generate some humility and disengage yourself from ego long enough to afford him/her respect his position demands. As I also mentioned, the Sangha of the > Triple Gem consists of the ariya puggala - not just any monk - and > this therefore does not refer to persons but designates consciouness > which has been altered by the arising of the Path and Fruit. James: I don't know where you got this information but it is plain false. The Buddha described the sangha as consisting of many types of monks: those who have achieved the paths and fruits and those who are in training to achieve the paths and fruits. They are all the sangha. Anyone who goes forth is a member of the sangha, not just ariyans. If you doubt this, I will look up the relevant suttas. But, first, give me the source for your definition of Sangha. > > That any monk is worthy of respect is not the question here. I am > considering the mental factors which might be in place to motivate the > desire to be ordained. James: Well, frankly, it isn't your place to be considering this. It's none of your business what motivates others to become ordained. All you need to concern yourself with is fulfilling your duty as a lay disciple (upasaka): honoring the Triple Gem. Metta, James #82464 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. nilovg Hi Howard, I meant actually no Lodewijk, no Nina, which Lodewijk found confusing. Any disagreement? I do not know. But I still kept the post on processes. Nina. Op 8-feb-2008, om 21:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Wonderful. (I, of course, don't exactly say "no person" - yet I don't > think you and I are largely in substantive agreement on this matter.) > --------------------------------------------------- #82465 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 11:37 am Subject: Re: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. nilovg Hi Howard, aha ;-)) Nina. Op 8-feb-2008, om 22:36 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I had meant DISagreement! ;-)) #82466 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 11:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) nilovg Hi James, Op 8-feb-2008, om 23:05 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > A monk is not just someone in a > > different costume; a monk is an entirely different person (or should > > be)..." ------- N: Here is something of interest perhaps. Kh Sujin quoted a commentary or text in Thai where it is said that having become a monk means: a new birth. The status is entirely different. She said: the difference is as great as heaven and earth. The monk has to keep so many rules, we have to greatly respect him. This does not mean, as Scott says, that his teaching is infallible. Nina. #82467 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 12:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro nilovg Hi Ken H, Op 9-feb-2008, om 1:34 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > 3. To begin with, he considers thus: 'Firstly this mentality- > materiality is not causeless, because if that were so, it would > follow that[, having no causes to differentiate it,] it would be > identical everywhere always and for all. -------- N: The nama/rupa are different, arising from different conditions, in different streams of citta, in different planes. Whereas an overlord who creates would have no conditions. We have to become used to the elaborate way of the texts to convey something. At that time there were arguments about these things and these had to be refuted. I also come across elaborate debates in my Tiika studies. When you supervise the next lot, just choose what you find relevant. Nina. #82468 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 12:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 3, no 3. dhammanusara Hi Nina, - I am not familiar with the term "annotation" -- do you mean information about the sources of reference for my sutta quotes? Assuming that my guess is correct, here is the information you want. 1. For the first group of suttas they are from the www.metta.lk http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara6/09-navakanipata/007-satipatthanavaggo-e.html 2. For the last sutta SN 47.40 it is from Accesstoinsight Web site. "And what is the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.040.than.html But if my guess is wrong, then just explain to me what you meant and I'll try to give you a better answer. Regards, Tep === > > The followings sutta quotes describe some of the great benefits > > of satipatthåna. The last quote [SN 47.40] says that the noble > > eightfold path is called "the path of practice" to the development of > > satipatthåna. Why is it so? > #82469 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 12:19 pm Subject: The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: James: "Okay, I would agree with this. The Buddha also taught that some become monks for the wrong reasons: to escape debt, to have food to eat everyday, to be respected, etc. But, what is your point? Are you saying that because there are some bad monks that all monks are bad? How do you know which monks are bad or not? It is tradition that one donates to "the robe", not the person. Scott, you won't understand this, but it doesn't really matter the mental state of the monk. You can still learn more about the Dhamma by being in the presence of monks (some good and some bad)." Scott: Of course I'm not saying that 'because there are some bad monks that all monks are bad'. I'm not talking of 'monks'. I'm discussing that which motivates the going forth, and we both agree to there being room for 'wrong reasons'. I'd like to consider 'right reasons', and, as such, am wondering about the kusala consciousness that might support a decision to go forth. I'm not discussing 'mental state' in a conventional sense, James, I'm discussing mental factors - those cetasikas which are conascent with citta and support that which is designated conventionally as 'going forth'. James: "He/she is a teacher simply but being a monk! He/she doesn't even have to open his mouth and you can learn the Dhamma in his presence..." Scott: This is just religion. This is superstition. This is idealisation - a mundane psychological concept - and simply has nothing to do with what I am attempting to discuss with you. James: "I don't know where you got this information but it is plain false. The Buddha described the sangha as consisting of many types of monks: those who have achieved the paths and fruits and those who are in training to achieve the paths and fruits. They are all the sangha. Anyone who goes forth is a member of the sangha, not just ariyans. If you doubt this, I will look up the relevant suttas. But, first, give me the source for your definition of Sangha." Scott: "Sangha: lit.: congregation, is the name for the Community of Buddhist Bhikkhus. As the third of the Three Gems or Jewels ti-ratana and the Three Refuges ti-sarana,, i.e. Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, it applies to the ariya-sangha the community of the saints, i.e. the 4 Noble Ones ariya-pugga, the Stream-winner, etc." (Nyanatiloka) James: "Well, frankly, it isn't your place to be considering this. It's none of your business what motivates others to become ordained. All you need to concern yourself with is fulfilling your duty as a lay disciple (upasaka): honoring the Triple Gem." Scott: Of course this is open to consideration, James. I simply consider your views on the sangha and monks in particular to be incorrect and based on what appears to be a blindly religious orientation. The question of what might motivate someone to ordain is really the question as to what motivates any kusala action. And the question of what might motivate kusala action is entirely relevant and not in any way a closed book. Right View is first and foremost in any consideration. I have no intention of blindly or religiously honouring any one or any thing. I think that a consideration of what constitutes action based on Right View is a most central concern. I am in no way satisfied that Right View amounts only to what I or you might think about anything. Sincerely, Scott. #82470 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 12:28 pm Subject: People are like Tornadoes buddhatrue Hi All, I want to offer a metaphor to explain how I view "people" and the controversy surrounding this issue. In this metaphor, people are like tornadoes. Under certain conditions of air pressure and air temperatures, tornadoes will arise and do considerable damage. They arise for a relatively short period and then disappear. Now, some could say that tornadoes don't really exist- it is only the air and water element of which they are composed which exists. Tornadoes arise and pass away, while the air/water element is always present- so tornadoes don't really exist. Well, you tell that to the person whose house is blown away by one of them!! ;-)) Of course tornadoes exist; they just don't exist as one of the great elements. People are like tornadoes. They arise because of certain conditions, they are composed of the great elements (including consciousness), and when those conditions cease they also cease. However, just because they are composed of something else, that doesn't make them unreal. Non-self doesn't mean unreal; it means impermanent and suffering. Metta, James #82471 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (er, I mean "figment of the imagination"! ;-)) - In a message dated 2/9/2008 2:36:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I meant actually , which Lodewijk found confusing. Any disagreement? I do not know. But I still kept the post on processes. Nina. ============================= I'm not clear on what you actually mean when you say "no Lodewijk, no Nina." There IS a Lodewijk, and there IS a Nina. But they are utterly dependent on the phenomena that comprise the aggregations that they are, making them empty of own being. Those phenomena are tied together by kamma, they act in concert, and Nina & Lodewijk are not just random, "grab bag" collections. What IS true is that independent of the dhammas of which these formations are comprised, they are nothing at all. And they are NOT individual phenomena - they are aggregations mistakenly conceived of as single phenomena. The bottom line, though, Nina, is that as aggregations, which is exactly what they are, Lodewijk and Nina do most certainly exist. (After all, Nina, if there is no Lodewijk at all, is it not insanity to love "him"?!) The Dhamma teaches no-self, but not no aggregations. All dhammas, whether paramattha dhammas or aggregations/formations, are empty of self, empty of a core of self-existence, empty of own being. They are utterly dependent. But they are not nothing at all. To take them as nothing at all is nihilism and not the middle way. With metta, Howard #82472 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 7:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] People are like Tornadoes upasaka_howard Hi, James - I agree with you! :-) In fact, in the past, in discussing rebirth, I have likened people to storm systems. With metta, Howard #82473 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 12:47 pm Subject: The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) buddhatrue Hi Scott (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Scott: Of course I'm not saying that 'because there are some bad monks > that all monks are bad'. I'm not talking of 'monks'. I'm discussing > that which motivates the going forth, and we both agree to there being > room for 'wrong reasons'. I'd like to consider 'right reasons', and, > as such, am wondering about the kusala consciousness that might > support a decision to go forth. James: You should probably discuss that with Nina. I am not an Abhidhamma expert. > > I'm not discussing 'mental state' in a conventional sense, James, I'm > discussing mental factors - those cetasikas which are conascent with > citta and support that which is designated conventionally as 'going > forth'. James: Okay, fine. Again, you should discuss that with Nina. > > James: "He/she is a teacher simply but being a monk! He/she doesn't > even have to open his mouth and you can learn the Dhamma in his > presence..." > > Scott: This is just religion. James: Buddhism is a religion. This is superstition. This is > idealisation - a mundane psychological concept - and simply has > nothing to do with what I am attempting to discuss with you. James: Well, okay, fine. Then again, Nina is the best person to discuss this with you. > > Scott: "Sangha: lit.: congregation, is the name for the Community of > Buddhist Bhikkhus. As the third of the Three Gems or Jewels ti-ratana > and the Three Refuges ti-sarana,, i.e. Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, it > applies to the ariya-sangha the community of the saints, i.e. the 4 > Noble Ones ariya-pugga, the Stream-winner, etc." (Nyanatiloka) James: I don't agree with this definition; it is too limiting. Here is a better definition of Sangha: In the suttas the word sangha (lit. "group, assembly") is usually used in one of two ways: it refers either to the community of ordained monks and nuns (bhikkhu-sangha and bhikkhuni-sangha) or to the community of "noble ones" (ariya-sangha) — persons who have attained at least stream-entry, the first stage of Awakening. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/sangha.html "Just as the ocean is the abode of such mighty beings as whales, whale-eaters, and whale-eater-eaters; asuras, nagas, and gandhabbas, and there are in the ocean beings one hundred leagues long, two hundred... three hundred... four hundred... five hundred leagues long; in the same way, this Doctrine and Discipline is the abode of such mighty beings as stream-winners and those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry; once-returners and those practicing to realize the fruit of once-returning; non-returners and those practicing to realize the fruit of non-returning; arahants and those practicing for arahantship... This is the eighth amazing and astounding fact about this Doctrine and Discipline." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.05.than.html#abode > > James: "Well, frankly, it isn't your place to be considering this. > It's none of your business what motivates others to become ordained. > All you need to concern yourself with is fulfilling your duty as a lay > disciple (upasaka): honoring the Triple Gem." > > Scott: Of course this is open to consideration, James. I simply > consider your views on the sangha and monks in particular to be > incorrect and based on what appears to be a blindly religious orientation. James: Okay, you wouldn't be the first. ;-)) > > The question of what might motivate someone to ordain is really the > question as to what motivates any kusala action. And the question of > what might motivate kusala action is entirely relevant and not in any > way a closed book. James: True, so discuss it with Nina. I will read what she has to say with interest. > > Right View is first and foremost in any consideration. I have no > intention of blindly or religiously honouring any one or any thing. I > think that a consideration of what constitutes action based on Right > View is a most central concern. I am in no way satisfied that Right > View amounts only to what I or you might think about anything. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Metta, James #82474 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 3:16 pm Subject: More Mettaa! bhikkhu0 Friends: The Speech of the Buddha on Friendliness: What should the clever one advantageously do: To attain This State called Peace, is this: He should be intelligent, straight, honest, Humble, gentle and never proud, Contented, and easy to support, Not busy, careful, and silenced… In abilities & senses, cautious, & modest, Not flattering families nor be demanding. He should not do even a minor trifle at all, That other wise men might criticize. Then he should think: May all beings be joyous and safe! Let every creature's mind rejoice. Whatever breathing beings there are, No matter whether feeble or firm, With none excepted, whether long; Tall, big, medium, short or small; Whether seen or unseen, visible or not; Whether living far or near, here or there; Whether existing or just about to become; Let every living being's mind be jubilant!!! Let none kill or another one undo, Nor harm anyone anywhere at all... Let none wish another any ill, neither from provocation nor from revenge. Thus, as a mother with her own life Might guard her son, her only child, thus Should he maintain an infinite friendliness; for every living being, in sympathy for this entire universe, unlimited, endless & vast! Above, below, and all around, unimpeded, without any hatred, without any enemies! Whether standing, walking, seated or lying down while slumbering, he should always maintain such Awareness of gentle kindness... This is the Divine Abiding here, they say. He that do not traffic with various views, Perfected in seeing what is right & wrong, Purged of lust for sense-pleasures, he will surely not come back here to any womb... http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Metta.htm Source: Minor Readings and the Illustrator http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=130231 Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #82475 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 3:30 pm Subject: The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply. We'll see if Nina will add something further. Me: "This is just religion." James: "Buddhism is a religion." Scott: Ahh, here's is likely where we run into our most significant difference. This disagreement likely explains a lot of our divergent views in this matter. If we take the Oxford dictionary definition of the word, we have: "religion: noun 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship. 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion. â€" ORIGIN originally in the sense life under monastic vows: from Latin religio ‘obligation, reverence’." Scott: We'll assume that definition 1 is not relevant. The second definition ('a particular system of faith and worship') only holds in a most superficial sense. Since the vital, dynamic, and living aspects of the Dhamma - the development of kusala dhammas - occur, not for persons, but for dhammas, and since these dhammas are not subject to control, 'worship' is not relevant and 'system of faith' is purely descriptive. In order for an act of 'religion' to be 'effective' it is dependent only on the constellation of any given moment of consciousness serving as condition for action. Ritual that is not founded on - i.e. is not conditioned by - an ultimately wholesome set of underlying circumstances is empty. To believe that empty ritual can lead to a desired effect is to believe in magic. In this sense, then, I'm suggesting that a reliance on a 'religious' view of monkhood is simply too superficial and completely does away with the actual depth and complexity of the human situation as contained in the Dhamma. Was it Karl Marx who opined that religion is the opiate of the masses? James: "I don't agree with this definition; it is too limiting. Here is a better definition of Sangha: 'In the suttas the word sangha (lit. "group, assembly") is usually used in one of two ways: it refers either to the community of ordained monks and nuns (bhikkhu-sangha and bhikkhuni-sangha) or to the community of "noble ones" (ariya-sangha) persons who have attained at least stream-entry, the first stage of Awakening.'" Scott: Well, I can understand two monks with differing views, and fully expect that monks, whom you consider to be automatically 'teachers' worth listening to, will disagree. Here we have Ven. Nyanatiloka versus Ven. Thanissaro (if I've read the source of your quotation correctly). Nyanatiloka doesn't always seem to get things right and I downright disagree with Thanissaro Bh. To me, though, this is at the level of views expressed. I respect the having gone forth - the robe as you put it earlier. Since you insist that a monk is to be listened to and agreed with just by virtue of his status as monk, then it is you who has the dilemma here of explaining to me how you can pick the view of one monk over another. Oughtn't both be right? I consider the views as views and have to hope (while not hoping) that an adequate intellectual understanding might someday be condition for the development of pa~n~naa to know the Dhamma - not intellectually but as found in the dhammas arising in the moment. Sincerely, Scott. #82476 From: han tun Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 5:07 pm Subject: Patthaana (4) hantun1 Dear All, This is the last part of the Foreward by Ashin Thitzana to the book titled “Patthaana.” This book is arranged in a tri-lingual format so as to benefit many devotees as well as their children who can speak and understand only English. Therefore, it will serve a useful purpose of bridging a gap of understanding in matters of religious practices that existed between traditional folks and young Buddhist people born and raised up in foreign countries. I am sure that it will also help bring everybody together when performing devotional services which will further enhance community spirit and enrich religious experience for young and old alike. In addition, it will help them to become the actual practicing Buddhists instead of being traditional Buddhists. Bringing out a devotional hand book of such genre is indeed long overdue. We have to be thankful to Sayadaw U Silananda, Chief monk of Dhammananda Vihara, Sayadaw U Ayethaka, Chief monk of Brahma Vihara, U Tin Htoon and Henry Kao for their great efforts in organizing, preparing and compiling this book for which they truly deserve acclaim and appreciation. I fervently hope that the book will benefit those who sincerely want to nurture faith and spirit, fulfill all wishes and aspirations and deepen their religious experiences in everyday life. With metta, Ashin Thitzana Dhammasukha Vihara Norwalk, USA ------------------- The Twenty-four Conditions will start from next post. Metta, Han #82477 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 5:08 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes scottduncan2 Dear James, Regarding: J: "...People are like tornadoes. They arise because of certain conditions, they are composed of the great elements (including consciousness), and when those conditions cease they also cease. However, just because they are composed of something else, that doesn't make them unreal..." Scott: To say 'people are like tornadoes' is to say 'concepts are like concepts'. The question is: In what way does a concept have its reality? Sincerely, Scott. #82478 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 237 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, This is interesting that object can condition desire. It solves a lot of problems when the object is object of seeing, hearing, tasting, and smelling because they are accompanied only by neutral feeling. Sometimes neutral feeling conditions craving, but not very often. Are these two ways of conditioning craving the only ways of conditioning craving? At the beginning it was said ignorance conditions formations and craving is included in formations. Can other kinds of kamma besides ignorance also condition craving or would that be a case of object condition or the feeling that accompanies kamma as decisive support condition for craving? Larry #82479 From: han tun Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 5:17 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (87) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) We read in the Commentary: “He then wrote as follows: ‘The teachings of the Lord Buddha are well spoken, they liberate beings from dukkha. If you, my friend, can really grasp this, may you then enter monkhood!’ The King had wrapped around the golden sheet a blanket of animal hair of a delicate texture and had it placed into a strong box. This box was placed into another box of gold, and this golden box into a silver box, and each box was successively placed into another precious box: made of silver, pearl, coral, ruby, emerald, crystal, ivory, of all kinds of gems, and then placed into a box made of a bamboo matting. This he had placed into a strong container, this again into a golden container, and then successively into other containers, in the same way as before in the case of the boxes. The container made of all kinds of gems he had placed in a container made of bamboo matting, and this in a container of hardwood. Thus each container was placed in another one in the same way. The box made of all kinds of gems which was placed in a box of bamboo matting was wrapped around with cloth and stamped with the royal seal. The King gave orders to the courtiers to adorn his auspicious elephant and place the throne on his back, to put over it the white multilevelled royal umbrella, to decorate the streets in the city with beautiful ornaments and banners, and pay respect with perfums, incense and flowers all along the way the royal present would be carried. With regard to the King himself, he was adorned with all kinds of ornaments and surrounded by his troops carrying musical instruments. The King considered that he would accompany his present until the border area of his country and that he would give an official letter to the attendants so that they would offer this to King Pukkusaati. The contents of that letter were as follows: ‘When you will receive this present, do not receive it in the quarters of the female royal servants, but may you go to the royal palace and receive it there.’ When the King had given the official letter, he thought, ‘The Teacher goes now to the border country’, and he paid respect by the fivefold prostration, kneeling and placing his hands and head on the floor, and then he returned.” The present which is superior is the Triple Gem. We have met each other life after life in the cycle of birth and death, in some lives as friends, in other lives as enemies or as parents and relatives. However, to be born as friends in the Dhamma who are co-operating to spread the teachings is most beneficial. Such a life is superior to other lives in the cycle of birth and death, where we were born elsewhere without such an opportunity. To be continued. Han #82480 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and James) - In a message dated 2/9/2008 8:08:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear James, Regarding: J: "...People are like tornadoes. They arise because of certain conditions, they are composed of the great elements (including consciousness), and when those conditions cease they also cease. However, just because they are composed of something else, that doesn't make them unreal..." Scott: To say 'people are like tornadoes' is to say 'concepts are like concepts'. The question is: In what way does a concept have its reality? Sincerely, Scott ============================== Anything we think about is, as something thought of, a concept. That isn't the basis for distinguishing namas and rupas from aggregations. Merely calling something a concept doesn't change what it is. Do you typically call the Buddha a concept? Was there no Buddha? C'mon, Scott - get real! (Pun very much intended! ;-)) With metta, Howard #82481 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 6 lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Any thoughts on what this might mean: 19.13: "with the maturing of the bases there is delusion, which is ignorance" I would also like to point out that any one of these 5 ways of discerning dependent arising is sufficient if doubts about past, present, and future dependent arising of this mentality and this materiality are abandoned. The 5 ways are: 1) discerning the conditions for the arising of this body and this mentality, 2) discerning the conditions for the arising of mentality as those conditions common to all mentality (eg. the 6 doors) and those conditions not common to all (eg. wise attention). And discerning the 4 causes of materiality: kamma, consciousness, temperature, and nutriment, 3) discerning dependent arising in reverse order, 4) discerning dependent arising in direct order, 5) discerning dependent arising according to which conditions are kamma and which are kamma-result. Larry #82482 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 6:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply (good one): H: "Anything we think about is, as something thought of, a concept. That isn't the basis for distinguishing namas and rupas from aggregations. Merely calling something a concept doesn't change what it is. Do you typically call the Buddha a concept? Was there no Buddha? C'mon, Scott - get real! (Pun very much intended! ;-))" Scott: No, all of the usual rhetoric aside, this gets me thinking. Ha ha. At any rate, concepts are dhammaarammanaa, and perhaps this is the way in which they have their 'reality' - as objects of consciousness. Sincerely, Scott. #82483 From: han tun Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 6:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. hantun1 Dear Nina, Tep, Howard and others, > > Tep: I believe that you know that I was impersonal and considering the issue of authenticity of Patthana in a general way --i.e. having no vicious intention to irritate Han, to act smart, or to criticize the Buddha's Abhidhamma. ---------- > N: Of course, no misunderstanding. But I would say to Han: it is very good if you can also quote from your Burmese book. And let us think of as many examples of conditions in daily life as possible. Then it will be a lively study of Patthaana. ---------- Han: There are many examples in the Burmese books to show how these twenty-four conditions work, and we will come across such examples as we go along. I do not want to bring out such examples at this stage. Each reader can judge for himself whether such examples are relevant or not, as we go along. I consider your examples very good, and it should be sufficient. If they are not sufficient, similar examples produced by me will not make the difference. For me, I believe completely in Patthaana, and this belief is shared by millions of Burmese in Burma. There are regular Patthaana chantings organized in towns and villages throughout the country. For them verification for the authenticity of the Patthaana was not necessary! Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Of course, no misunderstanding. But I would say > to Han: it is very > good if you can also quote from your Burmese book. > And let us think > of as many examples of conditions in daily life as > possible. Then it > will be a lively study of Patthaana. > Nina #82484 From: han tun Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 6:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: verification of the Abhidhamma. hantun1 Dear Nina and Howard, Nina: An example: we visited a bhikkhu who smiled when I told him about my interest in the teachings. Acharn Sujin asked me whether I knew why he smiled. She explained that this was because of happy feeling, somanassa. This sounds very simple, but it made me realize that feeling conditions our outward appearance.> This is classified in the text as citta that produces rupa, cittajarupa. We see a name in the text, we see a classification. But actually it is so simple, it occurs in life. ---------- Howard: Yes, that's good, Nina - an important reminder. What is best - and it can follow in the wake of such a reminder - is to develop the habit of ongoing mindfulness so that one directly *sees* the conditionality in action, making the cognitive connection of condition to effect in an "aha" moment. ====== Nina: These are some examples, and for me it is evident that many of the cittas and cetasikas can be verified, since they occur now in our daily life. Also conditions (not all) can be verified. Are these examples sufficient? ---------- Howard: I need no convincing that careful observation reveals conditionality and confirms the Dhamma [and Dhamma, while fundamentally and originally found in the Sutta Pitaka, is extant throughout the Tipitaka], but the practice of mindfulness is essential so that the saddha of confidence born out of direct experience is the saddha we have rather than the saddha of faith born out of belief and preference. ====== Han: I like very much what is written above. I thank both of you. Respectfully, Han #82485 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 7:02 pm Subject: [dsg] The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) buddhatrue Hi Nina (and Scott), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Op 8-feb-2008, om 23:05 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > A monk is not just someone in a > > > different costume; a monk is an entirely different person (or should > > > be)..." > ------- > N: Here is something of interest perhaps. Kh Sujin quoted a > commentary or text in Thai where it is said that having become a monk > means: a new birth. The status is entirely different. She said: the > difference is as great as heaven and earth. The monk has to keep so > many rules, we have to greatly respect him. James: Thanks for the quote. This is exactly what I have been trying to explain to Scott! But he just doesn't seem to get it. This does not mean, as > Scott says, that his teaching is infallible. James: I never said that the teaching of a monk is infallible. I have disagreed with monks on occasion (on and off the Internet). Once a visiting monk came to my temple to teach chakra meditation as being taught by the Buddha and I refused to attend the retreat- even though the abbott asked me to assist. However, I still stand by my original declaration that one should learn the Dhamma from monks- just not every monk obviously. Metta, James #82486 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 2:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 2/9/2008 9:23:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply (good one): H: "Anything we think about is, as something thought of, a concept. That isn't the basis for distinguishing namas and rupas from aggregations. Merely calling something a concept doesn't change what it is. Do you typically call the Buddha a concept? Was there no Buddha? C'mon, Scott - get real! (Pun very much intended! ;-))" Scott: No, all of the usual rhetoric aside, this gets me thinking. Ha ha. At any rate, concepts are dhammaarammanaa, and perhaps this is the way in which they have their 'reality' - as objects of consciousness. Sincerely, Scott. =================================== Very nice, my friend! It is so very pleasant to see someone open to possibilities! My hat's off to you! :-) With metta, Howard #82487 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 7:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes dhammanusara Dear Scott (Howard, james..), - Your question is good. Scott: To say 'people are like tornadoes' is to say 'concepts are like concepts'. The question is: In what way does a concept have its reality? T: Concepts are formed by paccaya -- thus they are conditioned dhamma too. So the answer is : They have their reality the same way as all other sankhata dhammas do. Tep === #82488 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 7:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes dhammanusara Hi Scott & Howard, - Finally Scott saw the light. > > Scott: No, all of the usual rhetoric aside, this gets me thinking. Ha ha. At any rate, concepts are dhammaarammanaa, and perhaps this is the way in which they have their 'reality' - as objects of consciousness. > > Howard > > Very nice, my friend! It is so very pleasant to see someone open to possibilities! My hat's off to you! :-) > T: Scott has finally turned around, back to the real world. But is that for real, Scott? Tep === #82489 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 3:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Scott) - In a message dated 2/9/2008 10:31:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Scott & Howard, - Finally Scott saw the light. > > Scott: No, all of the usual rhetoric aside, this gets me thinking. Ha ha. At any rate, concepts are dhammaarammanaa, and perhaps this is the way in which they have their 'reality' - as objects of consciousness. > > Howard > > Very nice, my friend! It is so very pleasant to see someone open to possibilities! My hat's off to you! :-) > T: Scott has finally turned around, back to the real world. But is that for real, Scott? Tep ============================= Tep, we can't be so certain that WE see the light! What is great about what Scott is doing is that he is looking and considering and not foreclosing possibilities. Keeping an open mind amounts to not clinging to view, and that, IMO, is superior to having even the right view when one clings to that right view. Relinquishment rules! With metta, Howard #82490 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 9:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes dhammanusara Hi Howard (and Scott), - I bow to you with thanks for the constructive reminder to always be humble. > >Tep: > >Finally Scott saw the light. > > > > > Scott has finally turned around, back to the real world. But is > that for real, Scott? > >Howard: > Tep, we can't be so certain that WE see the light! What is great about what Scott is doing is that he is looking and considering and not foreclosing possibilities. > Keeping an open mind amounts to not clinging to view, and that, IMO, is superior to having even the right view when one clings to that right view. > Relinquishment rules! > T: I meant light at the other end of the tunnel. But, Howard, that depends on the individual-- it may be just one candle-power in intensity, or a million candle-powers ! IMHO when clinging arises, right view disappears. Incompatibility rule! Tep === #82491 From: "colette" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 8:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Trivial Pursuit ksheri3 Hi Larry, Surely you'd agree that any person, or simply a single person, that subscribes to the Doctrine of Sunyata has essentially broken the rules of Sunyata since they had to originally take the position of realizing a self or an I, just as the writer of the Doctrine had to do, and this is not Sunya THEREFORE, I ask you: how does the coffee smell? lol The presuppositions are tremendous, aren't they? AND IT IS NOT NOR EVER WAS NIHILISM! Do not bring that garbage up, please. Nihilists are middle-managers that bit off more than they can chew and are simply trying to make the best out of a bad situation, for instance finding Thelema or something like that, and trying to advocate it EVENTHOUGH IT'S PROBABLY AS PLAIN AS THE NOSE ON ANYBODIES FACE THAT THOSE WHO ADVOCATE THELEMA probably do not know anything about it nor where it came from. They are simplying lemmings just tagging along on the band-wagon. thanx for the reply. My computer access is being terribly restricted as a means of reducing my contact with the outside world, outside of the prison of solitary confinement called Chicago. Don't worry, it happens approximately every 10 years and has had done this sine 1978. I warned people in Western mystery forums about this occurance back in 2004 so this should be old hat. <....> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > Interesting point about hind sight. Self doubt. Where did I come from? > Where am I going? I am of an age where I ask "where am I going" a lot;-) > I agree even that question refers to doubt about something I did, or was > supposed to have done, in the past. <...> #82492 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 9:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Trivial Pursuit lbidd2 Hi Colette, Sorry to read that you are on an internet ration. But maybe it's for the best. This is kind of an unreal world. Regarding emptiness and nihilism, the Buddha's idea on nihilism is nihilism is believing you will die. So emptiness _could_ be nihilism if you think that emptiness will die. The remedy for that is seeing that emptiness is also process. Process doesn't die in a definitive way. It changes, but it keeps going on and on. As far as the Buddha is concerned, this isn't the good news. It's just the right way to see things. Larry #82493 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 10:41 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi All, > > I want to offer a metaphor to explain how I view "people" and the > controversy surrounding this issue. In this metaphor, people are like > tornadoes. Under certain conditions of air pressure and air > temperatures, tornadoes will arise and do considerable damage. They > arise for a relatively short period and then disappear. > > Now, some could say that tornadoes don't really exist- it is only the > air and water element of which they are composed which exists. > Tornadoes arise and pass away, while the air/water element is always > present- so tornadoes don't really exist. Well, you tell that to the > person whose house is blown away by one of them!! ;-)) Of course > tornadoes exist; they just don't exist as one of the great elements. > > People are like tornadoes. They arise because of certain conditions, > they are composed of the great elements (including consciousness), and > when those conditions cease they also cease. However, just because > they are composed of something else, that doesn't make them unreal. > Non-self doesn't mean unreal; it means impermanent and suffering. > > Metta, > James > Hello James, all, A Tornado is not a sentient being, and has no intentional akusal/kusala actions. It seems to me that what you postulate does not account for the kammic accumulations and latent tendencies in sentient beings, which engender another re-becoming. (Maybe I'm rusty and have been lying low too long?) metta Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #82494 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 11:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. nilovg Dear Han, Op 10-feb-2008, om 3:35 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I consider your examples very good, and it should be > sufficient. If they are not sufficient, similar > examples produced by me will not make the difference. > > For me, I believe completely in Patthaana, and this > belief is shared by millions of Burmese in Burma. > There are regular Patthaana chantings organized in > towns and villages throughout the country. For them > verification for the authenticity of the Patthaana was > not necessary! ------- N: Wonderful, the interest of the people. Do they understand what they chant, and is it in Pali? Any examples are useful, also your personal views. We shall see how all this develops, and also this is condiitoned. I never knew that because of Jim we would go on with the Patthaana. Nina. #82495 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 11:18 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes buddhatrue Hi Christine, Good to see you back! Hope you have been having a nice time at e-sangha. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello James, all, > > A Tornado is not a sentient being, and has no intentional > akusal/kusala actions. It seems to me that what you postulate does > not account for the kammic accumulations and latent tendencies in > sentient beings, which engender another re-becoming. Right, tornadoes don't have consciousness (and therefore kamma) so they aren't EXACTLY like humans. Actually, it is much easier to explain the nature of a tornado than it is to explain the nature of a human being. However, I just used that metaphor to explain that even though people are an impermanent process they are real- they exist. I like the metaphor but you cant reject it if you find it too simplistic. I would completely understand. :-) Metta, James #82496 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 11:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > Here are a few responses: > Hi Larry, Looking at your responses I think, whether we like it or not, we are debating 'formal practice' v's 'no-control.' But that's all right; I think this is how it has to be. No progress can be made in Dhamma study until the notion of control-over-dhammas has been totally illuminated. -------- <. . .> KH: > . . . the Visuddhimagga is saying "he considers thus" but I take > that to mean "a monk - someone who is considering correctly - > considers thus." More specifically still, 'panna performs its > functions thus." > > Larry: > "Someone who considers correctly" can't be us if we regard this as conventional learning. A large section of the Visuddhimagga is taken up with conventional learning, learning the concepts. This includes the chapters on the khandhas and dependent arising. But once the concepts are learned the truth of those concepts begins to dawn in our own life, here and now. This means you and me sitting at our computers, not some hypothetical monk. --------- What is conventional learning - or conventional anything? It is nothing! At best it is an illusion. The Buddha did not teach an illusory path. Larry I want you to really listen to the no-control explanation. Too many DSG people refuse to listen. But the path taught by the Buddha was a real path. Reality is here and now. It is not in the past or the future: right understanding must be applied to the present moment or it will never be applied at all. Other people dismiss this understanding as being too difficult and unworkable, but don't be swayed by them. Stick with it! If you are going to find the real path it has to be in the dhammas that are arising now. ----------- <. . .> KH: > I could ask at what "stage in the path" is there understanding of the second noble truth, but that would sidetrack the thread too much. Some other time! Larry: I think it is important. If you look at the Visuddhimagga there is a large section of purely conceptual information: Supernormal Powers, Other Direct-Knowledges, the Aggregates, Bases and Elements, Faculties and Truths, and Dependent Origination. This is what is called "the soil of understanding". It isn't insight at this stage. It is just learning the concepts. ------------ Don't think in terms of two Dhammas - conceptual and ultimate. There is only one Dhamma. If there is right understanding of the information you are referring to at a purely theoretical level that is pariyatti, which is a function of panna. If there is right understanding of that information at a level that puts the information into practice that is patipatti, which is also a function of panna. ---------------------- L: > Nina is leading us through this little by little with her detailed analysis of the aggregates and dependent arising. On this level the Four Noble Truths, including the Truth of Cause of Dukkha, is part of this "soil of understanding". But now that we have entered the study of insight we could start taking these concepts seriously and see if anything comes up. Am I really namarupa? That's a real question. No need to avoid the question by putting up a firewall of conceptual understanding. Instead, let the conceptual understanding nourish real understanding. But first we have to ask the question in a serious, non-theoretical, way. --------------------- No, no, no! You are looking outside the present moment. If you do that you will only see a self that is waiting to become enlightened later on - at some future time. When a future time comes where will the self be? Where will any of the present dhammas be? They will all be long gone! So the conventional - outside the present moment - path is a useless one. (It is worse than useless!) That is why only the Abhidhamma (the explanation of conditioned dhammas) can show the way. Any other idea of what the Buddha taught misses the mark completely and is micha-ditthi, wrong view. Ken H #82497 From: "crosby_s" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. crosby_s Dear Nina i have found this on a website and i am wondering is this the Patthaana Han is refering to, if so this is quite interesting and insightfull.I dont understand pali, but the website has explanations on the 24 conditions. The web address is http://home.earthlink.net/~mpaw12/id30.html With Metta Steven. Patthàna Pali Recitation Causal Relation The twenty-four conditions (paccayas) are enumerated in Pàli as follows: (1) Hetu-paccayo, (2) àrammana-paccayo, (3) adhipati-paccayo, (4) anantara-paccayo, (5) samanantara-paccayo, (6) sahajàta-paccayo, (7) annamanna-paccayo (8) nissaya-paccayo, (9) upanisaya-paccayo (10) purejàta-paccayo, (11) pacchàjàta-paccayo, (12) àsevanapaccayo, (13) kamma-paccayo, (14) vipàka-paccayo, (15) àhàrapaccayo, (16) indriya-paccayo, (17) jhàna-paccayo, (18) maggapaccayo, (19) sampayutta-paccayo, (20) vippayutta-paccayo, (21) atthi-paccayo, (22) natthi-paccayo, (23) vigata-paccayo, (24) avigatapaccayoti. It is a tradition in the Buddhist community to recite this Patthana Pali "Pàli-gàthà" as a way of providing a demarcation, a safe place of sanctuary for meditation. Many who practice meditation in secluded places in the forest will recite this Gartha before starting their meditation. The person of virtue to accomplish their wholesome aspiration, in the past, present and in the future, recite this Pathanna Pali to help accomplish the set goal. The 24 Modes of Conditionality 1 Hetu-paccayo – Root condition 2 Irammana-pacayo – Object condition 3 Adhipati-paccayo – Predominance condition 4 Anantara-paccayo – Contiguity condition 5 Samanantara-paccayo – immediacy condition 6 Sahajàta-paccayo – Co-nascence condition 7 Annamanna-paccayo – Mutuality condition 8 Nissaya-paccayo – Dependence condition 9 Upanisaya-paccayo – Powerful Dependence condition 10 Purejàta-paccayo – Pre-nascence condition 11 Pacchàjàta-paccayo – Post-nascence condition 12 Isevana-paccayo – Repetition condition 13 Kamma-paccayo – Kamma condition 14 Vipàka-paccayo – Kamma-result condition 15 Ahàra-paccayo – Nutriment condition 16 Indriya-paccayo – Faculty condition 17 Jhàna-paccayo – Jhàna condition 18 Magga-paccayo – Path condition 19 Sampayutta-paccayo – Association condition 20 Vippayutta-paccayo – Dissociation condition 21 Atthi-paccayo – Presence condition 22 Natthi-paccayo – Absence condition 23 Vigata-paccayo – Disappearance condition 24 Avigata-paccayo – Non-disappearance condition #82498 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro kenhowardau Hi again, Larry, This has happened to me before: I tend to spell eliminated with an i instead of an e, and Spellcheck changes it to "illuminated." Don't believe Spellcheck, the notion of control over dhammas is not to be illuminated! KH > > Looking at your responses I think, whether we like it or not, we are > debating 'formal practice' v's 'no-control.' But that's all right; > I think this is how it has to be. No progress can be made in Dhamma > study until the notion of control-over-dhammas has been totally > illuminated. > #82499 From: han tun Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. hantun1 Dear Nina, > > Han: I consider your examples very good, and it should be sufficient. If they are not sufficient, similar examples produced by me will not make the difference. For me, I believe completely in Patthaana, and this belief is shared by millions of Burmese in Burma. There are regular Patthaana chantings organized in towns and villages throughout the country. For them verification for the authenticity of the Patthaana was not necessary! ------- > Nina: Wonderful, the interest of the people. Do they understand what they chant, and is it in Pali? Any examples are useful, also your personal views. We shall see how all this develops, and also this is condiitoned. I never knew that because of Jim we would go on with the Patthaana. ------- Han: In Burma, almost every town and bigger villages have Chanting Associations. In bigger cities like Yangon, there is more than one association, one in each township. They chant regularly, about once a week. They usually chant Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, Patthaana, and Mahaa Parittas, both in Pali and in Burmese translation. As regards Patthaana, the lay-persons chant the abridged form which I will be presenting. The monks chant the great volume which is known as Mahaapakaarana or “Anantanaya Samanta Patthaana” which denotes its profundity and fathomless depth. For that activity, the monks chant the entire five volumes in Pali (no Burmese translation) non-stop, and in shifts. They take about five days to cover just one time from the beginning to the end. I believe that whatever I do or whatever happens to me, one or more of the twenty-four conditions are involved. But I may not be able to explain how? I believe I will understand Paticcasamuppaada better if I understand Patthaana. The late Nyaunglebin Sayadaw, in his book on Paticcasamuppaada, briefly mentioned which conditions out of the twenty-four conditions are involved in each linkage between the twelve factors (angas) of Paticcasamuppaada. But unfortunately, no explanation was given – just the name of the conditions. In particular, I am greatly interested in natural decisive support or pakatuupa-nissaya (a sub-classification of upanissaya) which is a wide relation that includes as the conditioning states all past mental or material phenomena that become strongly efficacious for the arising, at a subsequent time, of the conditioned states, which are subsequent cittas and cetasikas. For example, prior lust may be a natural decisive support condition for the volitions of killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, etc.; prior faith for the volitions of giving alms, undertaking precepts, and practicing meditation; the gaining of health for happiness and energy, the onset of sickness for sorrow and torpor, etc. (CMA pages 315-316). I will have a lot of questions to ask you when we reach that paccaya. There are many more things which I believe in Patthaana, but I may not be able to explain how? As Howard nicely put it, my belief in Patthaana may be the saddhaa of faith born out of belief rather than the saddhaa of confidence born out of direct experience. But it doesn’t matter for me (I am not speaking for others). As Patthaana is very deep and profound I believe that complete faith in it will be very useful and beneficial for me. But please don't ask me how?:>)) Respectfully, Han #82500 From: han tun Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. hantun1 Dear Steven and Nina, Yes, this is the one. But I will also present Pali verses together with the translations. I may not be able to take up the portions towards the end: Summary of Causal Relations A Generalized Summary Division of Nàma and Rupa Pannatti (Conception) Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- crosby_s wrote: > Dear Nina i have found this on a website and i am > wondering is this > the Patthaana Han is refering to, if so this is > quite interesting and > insightfull.I dont understand pali, but the website > has explanations > on the 24 conditions. The web address is > http://home.earthlink.net/~mpaw12/id30.html > > With Metta > > Steven. > #82501 From: "shennieca" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:55 am Subject: Re: Happy Chinese New Year! shennieca Hello James, Han, (all), Happy Chinese New Year to everyone! :-)) May the year of the Rat bring you good health & happiness! With lots of metta, Elaine :-)) P/S: sorry for this super-short e-m. I have limited internet access because I can only use my brother's PC when he's not using it. I almost fried my laptop because the adapter wasn't wroking! I'll write more when I get back to T.O. :-)) ---------------------------------- #82502 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 4 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 9-feb-2008, om 3:56 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > The main difference between > the 5 sensitivities and heart base is that heart base isn't a faculty > condition. The conditions are: support, prenascence, faculty, > dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance. Here is what you had to > say about faculty condition in XVII,217 (dsg 80010): > > Nina: "...In the case of indriya-paccaya, faculty-condition, the > conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) has leadership, great control, > over the conditioned dhammas (paccayupanna dhammas). Indriyas are > "leaders" each in their own field." > > Larry: It is interesting that heart base is considered to have no > great > leadership over consciousness. --------- N: I can add here an old passage from Vis. XIV: U Narada, p. 61: Why heartbase is never a conditioning state:( as base-prenascence indriya) As shown above, five of the six bases are the conditioning states of base-prenascence-faculty condition, but the remaining base, heart- base, is never so. The reasons for this are; 1. Heart-base arises before mind-element and mind-consciousness element which are dependent on it. In this respect it is similar to the other five bases. But unlike them, the strength or weakness of the consciousness is not dependent on it. Because whether the heartbase is clear or not, mind-element and mind-consciousness element are not affected accordingly [N: but in the case of seeing, this is affected by it]. Thus heart-base does not control the consciousness dependent on it. 2. The five bases and the five corresponding sense-objects are respectively the receivers and impingers. But this is not so with heart-base and cognizable object. Instead, cognizable object impinges on the mind-door (life-continuum) and appears in it. Hence, heart- base is not a door and so it can never be a conditioning state of base-prenascence-faculty condition.> Nina. #82503 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. nilovg Dear Steven, Op 10-feb-2008, om 9:19 heeft crosby_s het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina i have found this on a website and i am wondering is this > the Patthaana Han is refering to ------ N: As Han said, yes. We shall also refer to my Intro to Conditions: http://www.zolag.co.uk/conditions.txt Your questions and remarks will be appreciated! I did not know patthanaa was chanted by so many groups. It shows their interest. Nina. #82504 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: > Dear Jon (Howard, Nina), - > > Thank you for letting me know that you agree with me that the no-self > view of the ariyans does not imply that there are no persons in the > real world. > Just to clarify, I expressed no view on the question of whether or not it can be said there are "persons in the real world". Likewise I have not joined in the discussion on the question of whether persons can be said to "exist". I think it more useful to discuss the matter of dhammas in the ultimate sense. I find that a better understanding of the Buddha's teaching on dhammas seems to resolve the other questions quite readily. >> T: I want to emphasize that "seeing" no persons or beings in the >> khandhas is just a right perspective/view/belief that is free from >> clinging(upadana); it does not necessarily imply that there are no >> persons or beings in the whole wide world. >> > > Jon: Well put. > > T: It is unusual for us to reach an agreement on such a difficult > subject so quickly. :-) > But not as unusual now as it used to be, I think ;-)) Jon #82505 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > >> Not quite sure what you mean. As has been mentioned many times before, >> the object of metta citta is always (the concept of) a person or being, >> > > James: A "concept" is something which does not literally exist. > In terms of the development of insight, the only "somethings" are things that are real in the ultimate sense. The collective term for these is "dhammas". These "somethings" are set out in the suttas by means of different classifications, such as khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas. The knowledge concerning these "somethings" is, as Larry mentioned in a recent post, the soil in which understanding grows. The distinction between dhammas and "non-dhammas" is thus one that must be appreciated. > A > concept is something which is just invented in the mind with no > corresponding reality outside of the mind. Sorry, but I don't think > that people are just concepts. I don't know how many different ways I > can state this. > Forget about "concept" for a moment. I think you'd agree that there is no dhamma/khandha/dhatu/ayatana that is "person", right? So in terms of the development of insight, "person" will not be the object of insight consciousness. That is the main issue, as I see it. Jon #82506 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: > Scott: In my own case I have a solid 'ordinary person's' intellectual > grasp of the above, i.e., that 'persons, places and things' are > conventional designations. There is no problem making sense of this. > To me, this would suggest that I 'appreciate that these are terms or > concepts'. I simply don't have the same sort of conceptual difficulty > others find themselves in the midst of with regards to notions of person. > > In this matter, based on ongoing discussion here, it is so clear that > some 'get it' while others seem unable to. And, further, this > intellectual understanding seems almost non-transferable. > > As Larry is discussing elsewhere, the intellectual grasp is the 'soil' > out of which a greater sort of non-intellectual appreciation grows. > What do you think is/are the factor/s which allow/s for the arising of > a given intellectual grasp of this matter? In other words, let's > assume you and I are correct in our intellectual evaluation of the > matter. What factors contribute to the situation where some can > easily understand that there is no person, while others cannot? > In my own case, what limited understanding I now have came only slowly and with difficulty, over some years (decades), and them with the benefit of quite direct exposure by way of weekly discussions, talks, tapes etc. No an easy subject to grasp. But perseverance pays off (as Azita would agree, patience, courage and good cheer are all needed). But to answer your question, I suppose it all comes down to past accumulations and present opportunity (vipaka). Jon #82507 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. dhammanusara Hi Jon, - I know, I know. Even a mundane family matter often requires clarification and reclarification ! So it doesn't come as a surprise to me if we may disagree again on an issue that we earlier thought was agreeable. > Jon: > Just to clarify, I expressed no view on the question of whether or not it can be said there are "persons in the real world". Likewise I have not joined in the discussion on the question of whether persons can be said to "exist". I think it more useful to discuss the matter of dhammas in the ultimate sense. I find that a better understanding of the Buddha's teaching on dhammas seems to resolve the other questions quite readily. > T: I see. You've made it clear that the question on "existence of persons" is not of your interest. Well, it may be true that when a better understanding of the Dhamma arises, the "other questions" shall become resolved (depending on how tough the underlying issues of "the other questions" are). But I doubt if such "better" understanding would arise through discussion of dhammas only "in the ultimate sense". Because if it were that simple, the Vinaya- and Suttanata-pitaka would soon be forgotten. ................. > >> T: I want to emphasize that "seeing" no persons or beings in the > >> khandhas is just a right perspective/view/belief that is free from clinging(upadana); it does not necessarily imply that there are no persons or beings in the whole wide world. > >> > > > > Jon: Well put. > > > > T: It is unusual for us to reach an agreement on such a difficult subject so quickly. :-) > > > > But not as unusual now as it used to be, I think ;-)) > > Jon > ................ T: I also have a similar thought. Tep === #82508 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:36 am Subject: Re: Happy Chinese New Year! .. Year of Rat ?.. dhammanusara Hi Elaine, - Thank you for the second New year wish. "shennieca" wrote: > > Hello James, Han, (all), > > > Happy Chinese New Year to everyone! :-)) > > May the year of the Rat bring you good health & happiness! > T: But rats are not famous for promoting a healthy environment! Best wishes to you too, Tep === #82509 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:52 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn dear friends, Part 39 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 509. "Aadiipitaa ti.nukkaa, ga.nhanta.m dahanti neva mu~ncanta.m; ukkopamaa hi kaamaa, dahanti ye te na mu~ncanti. 507. "A grass firebrand, when kindled, burns the one who holds it and does not let go. Sensual pleasures are truly like firebrands. They burn those who do not let go. Aadiipitaati pajjalitaa. Ti.nukkaati ti.nehi kataa ukkaa. Dahanti ye te mu~ncantiiti ye sattaa te kaame na mu~ncanti, a~n~nadatthu ga.nhanti, te dahantiyeva, sampati aayati~nca jhaapenti. 507. When kindled means: blazing. A grass firebrand (ti.n'-ukkaa) means: a firebrand (ukkaa) made of grass (ti.nehi). They burn those who do not let go means: they burn those beings who do not let go of sensual pleasures but grasp them all the more. Indeed, now and in the future, they destroy them. 510. "Maa appakassa hetu, kaamasukhassa vipula.m jahii sukha.m; maa puthulomova ba.lisa.m, gilitvaa pacchaa viha~n~nasi. 508. "Do not abandoneextensive happiness for the sake of a little happiness from sensual pleasures. Do not suffer afterwards, like a putholoma fish that has swallowed the hook. Maa appakassa hetuuti pupphassaadasadisassa parittakassa kaamasukhassa hetu vipula.m u.laara.m pa.niita~nca lokuttara.m sukha.m maa jahi maa cha.d.dehi. Maa puthulomova ba.lisa.m gilitvaati aamisalobhena ba.lisa.m gilitvaa byasana.m paapu.nanto "puthulomo"ti laddhanaamo maccho viya kaame apariccajitvaa maa pacchaa viha~n~nasi pacchaa vighaa.ta.m aapajjasi. 508. Do not for the sake of a little means: do not abandone (maa jahi), do not throw away, supramundane happiness that is extensive, great and excellent, for the sake of insignificant happiness from sensual pleasures like enjoying flowers. Do not, like puthuloma fish that has swallowed the hook means: do not suffer afterwards by not giving up sensual pleasures like the fish named puthuloma that has swallowed the hook, that has arrived at misfortune. 511. "Kaama.m kaamesu damassu, taava sunakhova sa"nkhalaabaddho; kaahinti khu ta.m kaamaa, chaataa sunakha.mva ca.n.daalaa. 509. "If it happens [that you are] among sensual pleasures, just control yourself. [You are] like a dog bound by a chain. Assuredly sensual pleasures will treat you as hungry outcasts treat a dog. Sunakhova sa"nkhalaabaddhoti yathaa gaddulena baddho sunakho gaddulabandhena thambhe upanibaddho a~n~nato gantu.m asakkonto tattheva paribbhamati, eva.m tva.m kaamata.nhaaya baddho, idaani kaama.m yadipi kaamesu taava damassu indriyaani damehi. Kaahinti khu ta.m kaamaa, chaataa sunakha.mva ca.n.daalaati khuuti nipaatamatta.m. Te pana kaamaa ta.m tathaa karissanti, yathaa chaatajjhattaa sapaakaa sunakha.m labhitvaa anayabyasana.m paapentiiti attho. 509. Like a dog bound by a chain (sa"nkhalaa-baddho) means: just as a dog that is bound (baddho) with a leather strap (gaddulena) is attached to a post by a leather leash, not being able to go anywhere else, roams around that very place, in the same way, you are bound by craving for sensual pleasures. Now, if it happens (kaama.m), even if (yadi pi), [you are] among sensual pleasures, control (damassu) yourself, control (damehi) your sense faculties. Assuredly (khu) sensual pleasures will treat you as hungry outcasts treat a dog, khu is simply a particle.* For those sensual pleasures will treat (karissanti = [kaahinti]) you in this way, like outcasts (sapaakaa ["those who cook dogs"] = [ca.n.caalaa]) who obtain a dog and cause its loss and misfortune. *Although the commentary indicates this would not be translated, I follow KRN in translating "assuredly." Khu is not defined in PED and this occurrence of the word is not noted. ..tbc, connie #82510 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:17 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 3, no. 5. nilovg Dear friends, When we develop understanding of nåma and rúpa we can think with gratefulness of the Buddha who taught us the Path leading to the end of defilements. This is a short recollection of the Buddha and at that moment mindfulness can arise of kusala citta as a conditioned nåma which is non-self. In addition, lovingkindness is to be developed in daily life. However, we should know that it is very difficult to see the difference between true mettå and selfish affection, which is called the near enemy of mettå. Akusala citta follows upon kusala citta very closely and they succeed one another extremely rapidly. We are likely to mislead ourselves time and again and take for kusala what is akusala. In India we were time and again disturbed, even molested by beggars, and we were inclined to turn away from them. Acharn Sujin said that if we think of life as a beggar, of kamma that conditions such vipåka, kusala citta with compassion and lovingkindness can arise instead of akusala citta with aversion. We can see other people, beggars included, as our children. At such moments we can notice that kusala citta has a characteristic different from akusala citta. When kusala citta arises, we are calm and not disturbed by someone else’s contrarious behaviour. Both samatha and vipassanå can be developed together in daily life. We read that when bhikkhus wanted to leave the order the Buddha adviced them to contemplate asubha, foulness. When one contemplates foulness one does not indulge in sense pleasures. Some people believe that, before one develops satipatthana, one should subdue sense desires by focussing the mind on foulness. This, however is not correct. There is no rule that one should perform particular actions before one develops satipatthåna. Through satipatthåna right understanding is developed of whatever dhamma appears, be it kusala or akusala. But also when one thinks of foulness, sati can be aware of a reality, for example of the dhamma that thinks of foulness. The contemplation of foulness can lead one to a deeper way of contemplation, the realization of impermanence. This is the development of insight. ******* Nina. #82511 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 237 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 10-feb-2008, om 2:08 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > This is interesting that object can condition desire. It solves a > lot of > problems when the object is object of seeing, hearing, tasting, and > smelling because they are accompanied only by neutral feeling. ---------- N: Here in the context of D.O. feeling is the object of craving. It is vipaaka feeling on account of the object experienced by vipaakacitta. Also neutral feeling conditions craving as you will see in the following section. --------- > L: Sometimes neutral feeling conditions craving, but not very > often. Are these two > ways of conditioning craving the only ways of conditioning craving? ------ N: Also unpleasant feeling conditions craving, namely craving to be rid of it and have pleasant feeling instead. See next section. -------- > L: At > the beginning it was said ignorance conditions formations and > craving is > included in formations. ----- N: Formations in D.O. is kusala kamma, akusala kamma, imperturbable kamma that produces rebirth. There may be lobha with akusala kamma. However, in D.O. craving is mentioned specifically as one of the links. ------- > L: Can other kinds of kamma besides ignorance also condition > craving or would that be a case of object condition or the feeling > that accompanies kamma as decisive support condition for > craving? ------- N: we have to pay attention to the different links in the context of D.O. , one following from the preceding one. Ignorance as the first link conditions the kamma that will produce rebirth. In this context feeling accompanies vipaakacitta, and this is the decisive support-condition of object for craving. ------ Nina. #82512 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (87) nilovg Dear Han, Op 10-feb-2008, om 2:17 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > When the King had given the official letter, he > thought, ‘The Teacher goes now to the border country’, > and he paid respect by the fivefold prostration, > kneeling and placing his hands and head on the floor, > and then he returned.” -------- N: The Teacher goes now to the border country, he said. This was the Dhamma, the Dhamma is the teacher. Before we read that he inscribed on the golden sheet the teachings: Thus that is why he made the fivefold prostration. This was for the Dhamma inscribed on the golden sheet. I also like this: Nina. #82513 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for this post I sent on to Lodewijk. You explained it clearly. I meant: Lodewijk found just the way it was stated: there is no Nina, senseless. Nina. Op 9-feb-2008, om 21:34 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm not clear on what you actually mean when you say "no Lodewijk, no > Nina." There IS a Lodewijk, and there IS a Nina. But they are > utterly dependent > on the phenomena that comprise the aggregations that they are, > making them > empty of own being. #82514 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) nilovg Dear Scott and James, You are both saying the same! Compare! It is good that bhikkhus are still there, that the Vinaya is still there from olden times on. In that sense one can learn something being in the presence of bhikkhus, even when they do not speak at all. Nina. Op 9-feb-2008, om 21:47 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Scott: "Sangha: lit.: congregation, is the name for the Community of > > Buddhist Bhikkhus. As the third of the Three Gems or Jewels ti- > ratana > > and the Three Refuges ti-sarana,, i.e. Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, it > > applies to the ariya-sangha the community of the saints, i.e. the 4 > > Noble Ones ariya-pugga, the Stream-winner, etc." (Nyanatiloka) > > James: I don't agree with this definition; it is too limiting. Here > is a better definition of Sangha: > > In the suttas the word sangha (lit. "group, assembly") is usually used > in one of two ways: it refers either to the community of ordained > monks and nuns (bhikkhu-sangha and bhikkhuni-sangha) or to the > community of "noble ones" (ariya-sangha) — persons who have attained > at least stream-entry, the first stage of Awakening. #82515 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:33 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. buddhatrue Hi Han, I will be reading with interest your presentation of the Patthana. I wanted to ask you about something you comment on: Han: I believe I will understand Paticcasamuppaada better if I understand Patthaana. The late Nyaunglebin Sayadaw, in his book on Paticcasamuppaada, briefly mentioned which conditions out of the twenty-four conditions are involved in each linkage between the twelve factors (angas) of Paticcasamuppaada. But unfortunately, no explanation was given – just the name of the conditions. James: This is interesting. According to what Buddhaghosa wrote in the Path of Purification, ALL 24 conditions apply only to the factor of `fabrications' in Dependent Origination: "Here it might be said: Let us then firstly agree that ignorance is a condition for formations. But it must now be stated for which formations, and in which way it is a condition. Here is the reply: Twenty-four conditions have been stated by the Blessed One as follows. (1) Root-cause condition, (2) object condition, (3) predominance condition…..(23) disappearance condition, (24) non-disappearance condition" Vism. XVII, 65,66 Buddhaghosa then gives a detailed analysis of these 24 conditions in terms of fabrications from Dependent Origination (Vism. XVII, 67-100) James: What do you make of this in light of what you read stated by Nyaunglebin Sayadaw? Could you please give the details of how the late Sayadaw saw the 24 conditions in relation to Dependent Origination (even if it is only the list without explanation)? You see, I am also curious as to the ways in which the 24 conditions presented in the Patthana relate to Dependent Origination. Additionally, Buddhaghosa writes in the beginning of the section to dependent origination: "According to the Suttanta method ignorance is unknowing about the four instances beginning with suffering. According to the Abhidhamma method it is unknowing about the eight instances [,that is to say, the above-mentioned four] together with [the four] beginning with the past; for this is said `Herein, what is ignorance? It is unknowing about suffering [unknowing about the origin of suffering, unknowing about the cessation of suffering, unknowing about the way leading to the cessation of suffering,] unknowing about the past, unknowing about the future, unknowing about the past and future, unknowing about specific conditionality and conditionally-arisen states." Vism. XVII, 58 James: So, according to the Abhidhamma Method, ignorance in DO is unknowing the Four Noble Truths, the past, the future, the past/future, and specific conditionality (i.e. 24 conditions of the Patthana). It seems that this would make the 24 conditions central to all of the links of DO and equal to the Four Noble Truths. What do you think about this? What do you think about the fact that Buddhaghosa states there are two different ways of explaining DO: the Suttanta Method and the Abhidhamma Method? Metta, James #82516 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Forget about "concept" for a moment. I think you'd agree that there is > no dhamma/khandha/dhatu/ayatana that is "person", right? James: Yes. So in terms of > the development of insight, "person" will not be the object of insight > consciousness. That is the main issue, as I see it. James: Well, this seems as if you have entirely moved the goal posts. I thought we were discussing if people are real or unreal, not the objects of insight. That is a much more complicated issue. I will have to do some research and get back to you on that. Metta, James #82517 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:42 am Subject: [dsg] The Necessity of the Bhikkhu Sangha (Re: mettaa. the present moment) buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Scott and James, > You are both saying the same! Compare! > It is good that bhikkhus are still there, that the Vinaya is still > there from olden times on. In that sense one can learn something > being in the presence of bhikkhus, even when they do not speak at all. > Nina. I agree with what you write; however, I think that Scott wanted an explanation in Abhidhamma terms (citta/cetasika) about why a person chooses to go forth. Would you have anything to say along those lines? Metta, James #82518 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. nilovg Hi James, In CH XVII, it was explained that the 24 conditions are applied to the links as the case demands, thus, severally. And as we go along in the study, for each following link it was explained in what way this link conditions the next one, by conascence, mutuality, etc. All the time conditions are mentioned, if you look at all these sections. By suttanta method, as different from the abh method: for example, as I quoted from the Co, to the Brahmajala sutta, all kinds of feeling, not just resultant feeling condition craving. This is no contradiction, just different aspects. Whereas the Mahaavihaara school says: only resultant feeling. This is the abh. classification. The tiika mentions here and there: such and such is the abh method, or it is said by the Abh. classifiers. It is late, the day comes to an end. Nina. Op 10-feb-2008, om 20:33 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Vism. XVII, 65,66 Buddhaghosa then gives a detailed analysis of these > 24 conditions in terms of fabrications from Dependent Origination > (Vism. XVII, 67-100) #82519 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. upasaka_howard Hi, Ninaq - In a message dated 2/10/2008 2:26:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, thank you for this post I sent on to Lodewijk. You explained it clearly. I meant: Lodewijk found just the way it was stated: there is no Nina, senseless. Nina. ============================ Thank you, Nina! My best to Lodewijk! :-) With metta, Howard #82520 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro lbidd2 Hi Ken, Are you familiar with Buddhaghosa's metaphore "soil of understanding"? How do you understand it? Larry #82521 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro lbidd2 Hi again Ken, There is no control in formal practice, but I didn't say you should sit down and do something formal. I just said you should ask these questions that are brought up in this chapter in an authentic way. What's the problem with that? Larry #82522 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > In CH XVII, it was explained that the 24 conditions are applied to > the links as the case demands, thus, severally. Where? Could you give me the exact reference, please? Thank you. Metta, James #82523 From: "Jim Anderson" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (3) jimanderson_on Dear Nina, I was looking over some of the messages of the Patthaana thread which began on Jan. 31 and noticed some errors in the following message #82391, Feb. 8: << N: This also answers your querie to what extent the texts of the Abhidhamma, and I could add, the whole of the Tipitaka are authentic. Recently I wrote about my confidence in the method of transferrence by rote. I think that chanting is a way to learn the texts by heart. Ashin Thitzana knows most of the texts by heart, and still has to complete the Patthana and the Yamaka, as Jim told me. Jim is now going to meet him in Singapore, where the Ashin is giving a retreat. Nina. >> Nina: "and still has to complete the Patthana and the Yamaka, as Jim told me." Jim: That was the case in August, 1982 when I first met him. Nina: "Jim is now going to meet him in Singapore, where the Ashin is giving a retreat." Jim: Not correct. I met with him this past Wednesday and Thursday at a Vietnamese meditation center in Laval, Quebec. I am not going to meet him in Singapore. Ashin Thitzana is now leading a Vipassanaa retreat at the Laval center and I think it will be a while yet before he is in Singapore. Best wishes, Jim Anderson #82524 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro lbidd2 Hi again and again Ken, Knowing how you are averse to prompted consciousness, instead of saying you _should_ ask these questions in an authentic way, I could say these questions are meant to be asked in an authentic way and given the right conditions this might arise in your mind steam. Obviously a right condition for you doesn't include the word "should", but it may for someone else. Larry #82525 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/10/2008 6:29:49 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Forget about "concept" for a moment. I think you'd agree that there is no dhamma/khandha/no dhamma/khandha/dhatu/ayatana that is "person", the development of insight, "person" will not be the object of insight consciousness. That is the main issue, as I see it. Jon ............................................................. Hi Jon, James, Tep, All. Just as a certain level of insight sees there is no "person" in terms of a "singular self contained thing;" so too, a deeper level of insight can see that the elements, aggregates are also not "self contained things." Therefore, in truth, to see elements, aggregates individually, is the same type of delusion as to see a "person" as a real self contained thing. Seeing elements is just more refined and a little closer to the truth of the matter. But it is still removed from the truth of the matter. Focusing on the elements, aggregates to uproot the idea of "person" is useful. Deeper insight focuses on the conditionality of elements, aggregates, to realize that these things are also empty, hollow, and not worth adhering to. To linger on them as "realities" is counterproductive. TG #82526 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (3) sarahprocter... Dear Jim (& Canadians), Super to hear from you again! It would be wonderful if you'd look over the thread and point out any other errors anytime! Thanks to Nina (& Han) for prompting your careful perusal:-). [Btw, we last heard from you, there have been quite a few other Canadian members posting regularly here, including Scott & Alex (Edmonton), Elaine (Toronto), Ann (Toronto/Vancouver), Phil(Montreal/Japan).....occasionally Rob M (Toronto/Malaysia), Alyssa (Toronto).... Joel was also from Quebec (are you still around, Joel?), and I vaguely recall a couple of others from Toronto, but not for a while, (Tom R, I think...)] --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Jim: Not correct. I met with him this past Wednesday and Thursday at > a Vietnamese meditation center in Laval, Quebec. I am not going to > meet him in Singapore. Ashin Thitzana is now leading a Vipassanaa > retreat at the Laval center and I think it will be a while yet before > he is in Singapore. ..... S: I was very surprised to hear you'd be going to Sing., so glad you've corrected this. I know that even the trip to Quebec would have been a major excursion. If there's anything you'd care to share about the meeting, I know others besides myself would be very glad to hear (whether the personal impressions and details or the Dhamma content of such). Metta and very best wishes for the New Year, Jim. Sarah p.s No need to reply if you're busy chopping wood and studying or would just prefer not to get involved. ======== #82527 From: "colette" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Trivial Pursuit ksheri3 Good Evening Larry, WE'VE STRUCK IT RICH! Death is not an ending, is it? Process, far from it! Emptiness IS, that's it. Emptiness doesn't grow or shrink IT IS, that's all. Of course it all depends on the TRUTH you look at ULTIMATE or RELATIVE. AS far as your way to view the teachings of the Buddha and the Buddha, well, that can be debatable. What is the RIGHT WAY to look at things? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > Sorry to read that you are on an internet ration. But maybe it's for the > best. This is kind of an unreal world. > > Regarding emptiness and nihilism, the Buddha's idea on nihilism is > nihilism is believing you will die. So emptiness _could_ be nihilism if > you think that emptiness will die. The remedy for that is seeing that > emptiness is also process. Process doesn't die in a definitive way. It > changes, but it keeps going on and on. > > As far as the Buddha is concerned, this isn't the good news. It's just > the right way to see things. > > Larry > #82528 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:01 pm Subject: Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 7 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Purification by Overcoming Doubt Chapter XIX 6. Kamma and kamma-result contd ..... S: Continuing this last section, we read the famous lines which emphasise that there is no 'Doer', no 'Experiencer' and that 'Phenomena (dhammaa) alone flow on': ..... 19. [There is no Doer apart from Kamma and its Result] In all kinds of becoming, generation, destiny, station and abode there appears only mentality-materiality, which occurs by means of linking of cause with fruit. He sees no doer over and above the doing, no experiencer of the result over and above the occurrence of the result. But he sees clearly with right understanding that the wise say 'doer' when there is doing and 'experiencer' when there is experiencing simply as a mode of common usage. .... S: This is the point: the wise still refer to doers, experiencers, people and beings, but they have no misapprehension that when they do so, it's just common usage (vohaara), as necessary for communication. .... 20. Hence the Ancients said. 'There is no doer of a deed Or one who reaps the deed's result; Phenomena alone flow on- No other view than this is right. And so, while kamma and result Thus causally maintain their round, As seed and tree succeed in turn, No first beginning can be shown. Nor in the future round of births Can they be shown not to occur: Sectarians, not knowing this, Have failed to gain self-mastery. [603] They assume a being, see it as Eternal or annihilated. Adopt the sixty-two wrong views, Each contradicting one another. The stream of craving bears them on Caught in the meshes of their views: And as the stream thus bears them on They are not freed from suffering. A monk, disciple of the Buddha, With direct knowledge of this fact Can penetrate this deep and subtle Void conditionality. There is no kamma in result, Nor does result exist in kamma; Though they are void of one another, There is no fruit without the kamma. As fire does not exist inside The sun, a gem, cowdung, nor yet Outside them, but is brought to be By means of its component parts, So neither can result be found Within the kamma, nor without; Nor does the kamma still persist [In the result it has produced]. The kamma of its fruit is void; No fruit exists yet in the kamma; And still the fruit is born from it, Wholly depending on the kamma. For here there is no Brahmaa God, Creator of the round of births, Phenomena along flow on - Cause and component their condition. ***** S: [I'll add the Pali for these lines of verse after signing off as some may have an interest in checking it.*] Without a clear understanding of dhammas, of namas and rupas and their conditioned nature, there are bound to be ideas of 'beings', 'people', 'doers', 'experiencers' and even 'creators'. Without any understanding of dhammas, there can be no real understanding of kamma and its fruit either. Metta, Sarah ..... *689. Tenaahu poraa.naa – <>ti. ========================== #82529 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness .. developed body .. sarahprocter... Dear Tep, Alex, Phil (& all), Thank you for your responses on this thread concerning: a) the meaning in the suttas of 'development of body and mind' and b) 'bodily and mentally withdrawn (from sense pleasures)'. To recap, this came up in a thread of Phil's. He had pointed to the phrase "withdraw in body and in mind" in suttas and considered I was 'denying the importance of "withdraw in body" and what he considers the 'more typical meaning of "seclusion" in the physical sense'. I introduced the phrases above as used in MN 36, Mahaasaccaka Sutta --- Tep Sastri wrote: >S: "MA explains that "development of body" here is insight, > and "development of mind" concentration. When the noble disciple > experiences pleasant feeling, he does not become overwhelmed by it > because, through his development of insight, he understands the > feeling to be impermanent, unsatisfactory, and essenceless; and when > he experiences painful feeling, he does not become overwhelemed by it > because, through his development of concentration, he is able to > escape from it by entering into one of the meditative absorptions." > > There may be more to discuss here... > > T: Yes, I saw that commentary note before. I did not say anything > because I had thought 'development of understanding' was insight > and 'development of body' was renunciation(nekkhamma). ... S: Of course there is both understanding and renunciation (of different kinds) in both insight and jhaana. I *attempted* a quick look at the commentary: "369.Uppannaapi sukhaa vedanaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati, bhaavitattaa kaayassa. Uppannaapi dukkhaa vedanaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati, bhaavitattaa cittassaati ***ettha kaayabhaavanaa vipassanaa, cittabhaavanaa samaadhi***." ... S: I think as B.Bodhi's note said, the commentary confirms that here 'development of body' refers to insight and 'development of mind' to samaadhi (i.e jhaana). We read about the one 'developed in body and developed in mind: "...pleasant feeling arises....Touched by that pleasant feeling, he does not lust after pleasure or continue to lust after pleasure. That pleasant feeling of his ceases. With the cessation of the pleasant feeling, painful feeling arises. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, and lament......" .... >S: Also, later in the sutta (MN36), we read about those 'who live > bodily and mentally withdrawn from sensual pleasures...'. More to > consider here perhaps? How do you understand the phrase and the > connection with the above? > > T: Yes, you are exactly right. Thanks to your keen observation. I > think "bodily withrawn" is equivalent to renunciation(nekkhamma). In > other words, it is a synonym for "development of body".<...> .... S: Here the Pali for 'bodily and mentally withdrawn from sensual pleasures' is 'kaayena ceva cittena ca kaamehi...'. We read that those who live "bodily and mentally withdrawn from sensual pleasures, and whose sensual desire, affection, infatuation, thirst, and fever for sensual pleasures has been fully abandoned and suppressed internally, even if those good recluses and brahmins feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to exertion, they are capable of knowledge and vision and supreme enlightenment; and even if those good recluses and brahmins so not feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to exertion, they are capable of knowledge and vision and supreme enlightenment." Now in the Visuddhimagga, Ch IV, under 'The First Jhana', there is quite a lot of detail about 'bodily seclusion' and 'mental seclusion'. In brief, it says (#83): "...the words 'quite secluded from sense desires' properly mean 'quite secluded from sense desires as object', and express bodily seclusion, while the words 'secluded from unprofitable things' properly mean 'secluded from sense desires as defilement or from all unprofitable things', and express mental seclusion. And in this case giving up of pleasure in sense desires is indicated by the first since it only expresses seclusion from sense desires as object, while acquisition of pleasure in renunciation is indicated by the second since it expresses seclusion from sense desire as defilement." S: Jhaana is the (temporary) suppression and renunciation of sense objects and unprofitable states, while vipassanaa is the overcoming and abandoning of unprofitable states. I think that both 'bodily' and 'mental' seclusion refer to such mental states and this was the opposite of what Aggivasena had believed. At the end of the sutta, the Buddha referred to how at the end of the hot season, returning from his almsround and after his meal, he had lain down, fallen asleep, but aware. Aggivasena suggests that some call this 'abiding in delusion'. The Buddha replies that it is by the 'non-abandoning of the taints' that one is deluded. In other words, it's never by the posture or situation, but always by the mental states that any lack of delusion or any seclusion from sense pleasures is determined. I'll look forward to your further comments. I find it helpful to consider these passages further. Metta, Sarah p.s Apologies for delays. We're going away on Friday and I'm hoping to finish Vism, Ch 19 before that. ======== #82530 From: han tun Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. hantun1 Dear James (and Nina), Your post consists of two subjects: (1) relationship between Paticcasamuppaada and Patthaana, (2) definition of Avijjaa. Please let me take up the second subject first. Suttanta definition of avijjaa is not knowing the Four Noble Truths (four points). Abhidhamma definition of avijjaa is the above four points (plus) another four points, namely, not knowing: (i) the past khandha- and aayatana-groups, (ii) the future khandha- and aayatana-groups, (iii) the front end and the rear end of the present khandha- and aayatana groups, (iv) paticcasamuppaada causal relations which include kamma and its consequences. (Ref: Dr. Mehm Tin Mon’s The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma, page 298) I consider the above definitions as the same as in Visuddhimagga (XVII, 58). In this connection, I think Bhadantaacariya Buddhaghosa gave the two ‘definitions’ of avijjaa, in this paragraph: Suttanta definition and Abhidhamma definition of avijjaa [and not the two ‘Methods’]. Now, to understand the difference between Suttanta and Abhidhamma Methods on this subject, we will have to take it as a broader topic of “Methods of Conditioning” (Paccaya). There are two Methods of Conditioning (Paccaya): (1) Paticcasamuppaada method = the Law of Dependent Origination. (2) Patthaana method = the Law of Causal Relations. I do not find Patthaana method in Suttas. I find Paticcasamuppaada method both in Suttas and in Abhidhamma. The factors and the linkages of Paticcasamuppaada are the same, both in Suttas and in Abhidhamma, but the Abhidhamma Method goes for more details than Suttanta Method, citing the involvement of cittas, cetasikas and ruupas. Here, the role of Patthaana comes in, to complement the Paticcasamuppaada method. The last paragraph (above) is my own opinion. ========== As regards, the role of 24 patthaana conditions in paticcasamuppaada, according to Nyaunglebin Sayadaw, what I understand is that in each linkage between the two factors (angas), all 24 conditions may not be involved, but some of them play a prominent role according to the conditioning and conditioned states. By reading the Visuddhimagga, you are correct to assume that ALL 24 conditions apply only to the linkage between ignorance and the `fabrications' in Dependent Origination. I cannot explain why there is such a difference between the writings of Nyaunglebin Sayadaw and Bhadantaacariya Buddhaghosa. But I will write something in support of Nyaunglebin Sayadaw. According to Nyaunglebin Sayadaw, the following conditions are involved in the linkage between ignorance (avijjaa) and fabrications (sankhaara): 1. Root condition (hetu-paccaya) 2. Object condition (aarammana-paccaya) 3. Predominance condition (adhipati-paccaya) 4. Proximity condition (anantara-paccaya) 6. Conascence condition (sahajaata-paccaya) 9. Decisive support condition (upanissaya-paccaya) 12. Repetition condition (aasevana-paccaya) My own opinion is that in this paticcasamuppaada linkage between avijjaa and sankhaara, there cannot be other conditions such as, Nutriment condition (aahaara-paccaya), Faculty condition (indriya-paccaya), Jhaana condition (jhaana-paccaya), and Path condition (magga-paccaya). This is my attempt to show that not ALL 24 conditions are involved in every linkage. As regards other Patthaana conditions involved in other Paticcasamuppaada linkages, I will write later. If there is something which is not clear in what I have written so far, please do not hesitate to ask me. Respectfully, Han #82531 From: han tun Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (87) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanations. Now I understand more and more the significance of the story, and I like it more and more. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Thus that is why he made the fivefold prostration. > This was for the > Dhamma inscribed on the golden sheet. > > I also like this: Dhamma who are > co-operating to spread the teachings is most > beneficial. Such a life is superior to other lives > in > the cycle of birth and death, where we were born > elsewhere without such an opportunity. > #82532 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:37 pm Subject: Discourteous Speech - to be tolerated? sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Whilst reading and quoting from the Mahaasaccaka Sutta, MN 36, I was struck by the references to the offensive speech which the Buddha listened to with compassion and equanimity. Of course, none of us can (or should) attempt to emulate the Buddha, but when friends suggest to us (on and off-list) that discourtesy should not be tolerated here, I think we can learn from the examples of the wise in the suttas and also from all the recent reminders in the series of the Perfections, under 'patience'. For example, the Buddha knew that Saccaka (Aggivasena), Nigantha's son (in the sutta above)came with the sole purpose of discrediting the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. The Buddha said to him at one point that his words were offensive and discourteous, but still he answered him in great detail out of compassion. At the end, Aggivasena said: "It is wonderful, Master Gotama, it is marvellous how when Master Gotama is spoken to offensively again and again, assailed by discourteous courses of speech, the colour of his skin brightens and the colour of his face clears, as is to be expected of one who is accomplished and fully enlightened." He then recalls how when he engaged other teachers in debate, they became angry and so on. At the end, the commentary says that even though Saccaka did not become enlightened or even take refuge in the Triple Gem after hearing two long suttas personally from the Buddha and directed to him, he was taught so that a mental imprssion (vaasanaa) would be made which would mature in future. Later in Sri Lanka he would be reborn and become an arahant. In other words, we never know when/how or what any kindness or sharing of the Dhamma may be of assistance to anyone in future, even if it is rejected now. What we hear depends on kamma. How we respond depends on accumulated wholesome and unwholesome tendencies. There is no 'rule' for monks or lay-people that they should not hear blame as well as praise, discourtesy as well as courtesy. It's inevitable that the worldly conditions will never be as we'd like them all (or most) of the time. I liked Nina's simple reminder of friendliness: "Everyone has his style and don't take it amiss. After a while you get used to the styles of different people." On a cd this morning, I heard A.Sujin saying that we take certain things or situations for being problems, but if we don't think about them, there's no problem. It's very true! As we read in suttas such as the Dvedhaavitakka Sutta (MN 19), "whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind." When we reflect on dhammas (rather than people), the mind inclines more and more to dhammas. In the Perfections Corner, there are so many great reminders from the texts and A.Sujinon patience. Here are a couple of recent ones, I marked: **** "When someone has done wrong, he is likely to be blamed by society. If we believe that we should join in judging that person and blaming him time and again, the citta is akusala and then we are actually on the side of Adhamma, not of Dhamma. If sati-sampaja~n~na arises, we can have loving-kindness and patience; we can refrain from blaming someone else, so that aversion and other kinds of akusala do not increase." **** "A wise person will have patience and he can endure words of disdain, no matter whether these are spoken by someone who is higher in rank, who is lower in rank or by an evil person, because one should develop patience with regard to everybody." **** Metta, Sarah ====== #82533 From: "colette" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro ksheri3 foundation colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > Are you familiar with Buddhaghosa's metaphore "soil of understanding"? > How do you understand it? > > Larry > #82534 From: "colette" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro ksheri3 didn't O.J. get arrested in Las Vegas for stealing what were "authentic" signatures? what is authentic? Where is there a list of questions to ask concerning "authentic" literature? Middle-management is an enormous problem with cyclical behavior, no? Problems only arise when there is a pre-determined goal which has the chance of not being met. always good to speak with you Larry. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi again Ken, > > There is no control in formal practice, but I didn't say you should sit > down and do something formal. I just said you should ask these questions > that are brought up in this chapter in an authentic way. What's the > problem with that? > > Larry > #82535 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Trivial Pursuit lbidd2 Hi Colette, Here's a little back and forth: Colette: "Good Evening Larry, WE'VE STRUCK IT RICH! Death is not an ending, is it?" Larry: Everything ends. That's impermanence. But since there is no I , there is no I to die or continue. Just one consciousness arising after another. Colette: "Process, far from it! Emptiness IS, that's it. Emptiness doesn't grow or shrink IT IS, that's all. Of course it all depends on the TRUTH you look at ULTIMATE or RELATIVE. AS far as your way to view the teachings of the Buddha and the Buddha, well, that can be debatable." Larry: Depends on what you mean by emptiness. This is empty of that or empty of all this. Colette: "What is the RIGHT WAY to look at things?" Larry: Realistically. Larry #82536 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro lbidd2 Hi Colette, Larry: "Are you familiar with Buddhaghosa's metaphore "soil of understanding"? How do you understand it?" Colette: "foundation" Larry: How so? What is it in particular? Larry #82537 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 3 sarahprocter... Hi Larry & all, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Sarah: "Note the stress on 'comprehension by direct observation of the > causal conditions'. There is nothing conceptual/theoretical about such a > degree of right understanding/vipassanaa." > > Larry: I agree. Otherwise this insight would have arisen for all of us. > If we think we have a past or a future or a present then there is still > doubt about the three divisions of time. It is easy to read and > understand these words but the actual insight is something else. .... S: Excellent! Metta, Sarah p.s Enjoying your various Vism discussions:) ======= #82538 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:29 pm Subject: Facts on Ashin Thitzana. nilovg Dear Han and friends, I made some mistakes about facts on Ashin. Jim read dsg messages and corrected me: Nina: "and still has to complete the Patthana and the Yamaka, as Jim told me." Jim: That was the case in August, 1982 when I first met him. Nina: "Jim is now going to meet him in Singapore, where the Ashin Thitzana is giving a retreat." Jim: Not correct. I met with him this past Wednesday and Thursday at a Vietnamese meditation center in Laval, Quebec. I am not going to meet him in Singapore. Ashin Thitzana is now leading a Vipassanaa retreat at the Laval center and I think it will be a while yet before he is in Singapore.> Nina. #82539 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (3) nilovg Dear Jim, thank you and I put your corrections on dsg. Nina. Op 11-feb-2008, om 3:18 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven: > I was looking over some of the messages of the Patthaana thread which > began on Jan. 31 and noticed some errors in the following message > #82391, #82540 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 5 sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Thank you too. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > thank you, very good conclusion. I liked the quote from Connie's > Sisters: ppuna.m) means: those who weep > (rudantaana.m) because of grief again and again (aparaapara.m). By this, > too, she makes clear to them that ignorance and cravings are > uninterrupted."> > And yesterday at the funeral we were reminded when seeing my > neighbour's children weeping so much. ... S: Yes, because we don't understand dhammas, so lots of weeping, lots of stories about people. I thought of you as I heard KS saying again (with regard to the brief discussion about our friend's funeral), "better to have understanding of realities than just thinking about stories" in response to a question I asked about whether there was anything special she said or thought about when going to so many funerals. "Don't cling to any happenings!" Also, "Usually I don't cling too much to any special happenings" and then more about "thinking like now...we classify thinking like sad or good, but it's only thinking, no meaning at all." I like the above about "ignorance and cravings are uninterrupted". Metta, Sarah ======= #82541 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. nilovg Hi James, Op 11-feb-2008, om 3:16 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > In CH XVII, it was explained that the 24 conditions are applied to > > the links as the case demands, thus, severally. > > Where? Could you give me the exact reference, please? Thank you. -------- N: See Ch XVII, 66-101. In my study I explain them all and quote the Tiika, all these can be found in the archives. -------- As to Abh method and Suttanta method, the abh gives more details. See Ch XVII, 58, about past and future: Nina. #82542 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. buddhatrue Hi Jon, again, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > > Forget about "concept" for a moment. I think you'd agree that there is > > no dhamma/khandha/dhatu/ayatana that is "person", right? > > James: Yes. > > So in terms of > > the development of insight, "person" will not be the object of insight > > consciousness. That is the main issue, as I see it. > > James: Well, this seems as if you have entirely moved the goal posts. > I thought we were discussing if people are real or unreal, not the > objects of insight. That is a much more complicated issue. I will > have to do some research and get back to you on that. I have done some research and I would conclude that mundane insight arises from contemplation of the khandas (i.e. 4 Foundations of Mindfulness) and supramundane insight arises from the contemplation of cessation (i.e. nibbana). You are correct in saying that insight (panna) doesn't arise by contemplating "people". However, again, that doesn't mean that ariyan's see people/beings as not existing; they just see beings in a deeper manner. In other words, they see past the surface appearance. Is this along the lines of what you were driving at? Metta, James #82543 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. buddhatrue Hi Han (and Tep), Thank you for your very complete reply! You left no stone left unturned and I admire and appreciate that. I look forward to your presentation of the Patthana. Metta, James ps. See, Tep, it isn't impossible to get my approval. ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear James (and Nina), > > Your post consists of two subjects: > (1) relationship between Paticcasamuppaada and > Patthaana, > (2) definition of Avijjaa. > > Please let me take up the second subject first. > Suttanta definition of avijjaa is not knowing the Four > Noble Truths (four points). > Abhidhamma definition of avijjaa is the above four > points (plus) another four points, namely, not > knowing: #82544 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. nilovg Dear Han, Op 11-feb-2008, om 7:02 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > According to Nyaunglebin Sayadaw, the following > conditions are involved in the linkage between > ignorance (avijjaa) and fabrications (sankhaara): -------- N: Ignorance conditions the 'fabrication' or sankhaara that is kusala kamma, not by conascence but by decisive support, and others. We have to take into consideration each case: is it kusala kamma formation, or akusala kamma formation, or imperturbable kamma-formation. The Vis. texts give us the details in Ch XVII. Thus, Nyaunglebin Sayadaw speaks in a general way and includes all possibilities. Nina. #82545 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro kenhowardau Hi Larry, Sorry if I have misunderstood you, but I thought you were arguing in favour of a formal pariyatti practice: ---- L: > Are you familiar with Buddhaghosa's metaphor "soil of understanding"? How do you understand it? ----- I think he was referring to right theoretical understanding. I am sure you will agree he was not referring to mere words or a block of text. As people here keep telling us "Abhidhamma is not in the book." --------------- L: > There is no control in formal practice, but I didn't say you should sit down and do something formal. I just said you should ask these questions that are brought up in this chapter in an authentic way. What's the problem with that? --------------- By "authentic" I presume you mean "right" or "kusala" and I agree that is what I should be doing. But there's no control over it, is there? As we were saying before, a monk (someone who is acting in accordance with the Dhamma) asks those questions in an authentic, right, kusala, way. It seems to me you are asking me to impersonate a monk. :-) -------------- L: > Knowing how you are averse to prompted consciousness, -------------- There's another of those unexpected, unfathomable comments you love to come up with. I'm going to call you Left-field Larry. :-) I'll ignore it for now. But if you meant it seriously there is a lot we need to talk about. --------------------- L: > instead of saying you _should_ ask these questions in an authentic way, I could say these questions are meant to be asked in an authentic way and given the right conditions this might arise in your mind steam. --------------------- Thank you, I can't argue with that. ------------- L: > Obviously a right condition for you doesn't include the word "should", but it may for someone else. ------------- As long as there is no idea of control, we can say "should" as often as we like: "we should study Dhamma" "we should put study into practice" "we should stop hankering after sense pleasures" . . .etc., etc. That is all true in the ultimate sense of should, but not in the conventional sense (of 'things to do' 'people who do things' and 'control'). Ken H #82546 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Op 11-feb-2008, om 3:16 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > In CH XVII, it was explained that the 24 conditions are applied to > > > the links as the case demands, thus, severally. > > > > Where? Could you give me the exact reference, please? Thank you. > -------- > N: See Ch XVII, 66-101. James: These sections describe the 24 conditions in terms of formations and formations only, not the other links of DO. > In my study I explain them all and quote the Tiika, all these can be > found in the archives. James: I am not sure what you mean by "the archives". Could you direct me to them? > -------- > As to Abh method and Suttanta method, the abh gives more details. James: I can accept this explanation (which Han also offered). I don't see them as contradicting either because, frankly, I don't fully understand either one of them! ;-)) Metta, James #82547 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. sarahprocter... Dear Tep, I thought you made some very useful comments on the test of authenticity. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > I wrote: A firm personal belief on absolute authenticity that is > founded wholely on conviction (faith, saddha) is one thing; the truth > is another. Only direct knowledge of the Buddha's teachings is the > true test of authenticity of the texts for that person. > ---------- <...> > First of all, let us recall the Dhamma's unique characteristics as > follows: > > The Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, > timeless, inviting all to come and see, pertinent, to be seen by the > wise for themselves. [Dhammo sanditthiko akaliko ehipassiko > opanayiko paccattam veditabbo vinnuhi.] > > 'To be seen here & now' is direct knowing that will erase doubts. > 'To be seen by the wise for themselves' means not just accepting it > by faith, but through direct knowledge make it realizable. > > There are many suttas, including the Patism, that explain how direct > knowledge may arise. Until we attain direct knowledge of the Dhamma, > we are not yet "the wise". ... S: As you say, it will only be the direct knowing that will erase doubts about the Buddha-vacana. This is exactly the same point which is stressed throughout Ch 19 of Vism. Metta & appreciation, Sarah ========= #82548 From: han tun Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. hantun1 Dear James (and Tep), Thank you very much and I feel greatly honoured. Respectfully, Han --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Han (and Tep), > > Thank you for your very complete reply! You left no > stone left > unturned and I admire and appreciate that. I look > forward to your > presentation of the Patthana. > > Metta, > James > ps. See, Tep, it isn't impossible to get my > approval. ;-)) > #82550 From: han tun Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. hantun1 Dear Nina (and James), Nina: Ignorance conditions the 'fabrication' or sankhaara that is kusala kamma, not by conascence but by decisive support, and others. We have to take into consideration each case: is it kusala kamma formation, or akusala kamma formation, or imperturbable kamma-formation. The Vis. texts give us the details in Ch XVII. Thus, Nyaunglebin Sayadaw speaks in a general way and includes all possibilities. Han: I agree with you that the conditions by which avijjaa relates sankhaara will be different with different types of sankhaara. Avijjaa cannot relate pu~n~naabhi-sankhaara with conascence condition, but it can relate apu~n~naabhi-sankhaara with conascence condition. Nyaunglebin Sayadaw may be speaking in a general way, but it is less general than saying that ALL 24 conditions are involved in the arising of formations. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > Op 11-feb-2008, om 7:02 heeft han tun het volgende > geschreven: > > > According to Nyaunglebin Sayadaw, the following > > conditions are involved in the linkage between > > ignorance (avijjaa) and fabrications (sankhaara): #82551 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 11-feb-2008, om 2:25 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Thank you, Nina! My best to Lodewijk! :-) ------- N: He read your post and he is very grateful for your clear explanation. Nina. #82552 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. nilovg Hi James, Op 11-feb-2008, om 9:00 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > N: See Ch XVII, 66-101. > > James: These sections describe the 24 conditions in terms of > formations and formations only, not the other links of DO. ------- N: Yes, after this, for all of the links different conditions are given. I do not blame you if you do not follow all of this, the posts are too many. I do not follow all threads. Just an example: < Text Vis. 201: Rebirth-linking or some other kind of resultant consciousness is a condition in nine ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, association, kamma-result, nutriment, faculty, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, either at rebirth-linking or in the course of an existence, for that mentality called resultant, whether mixed with materiality or not. -------- N: This refers to vipaakacitta and its accompanying cetasikas. They are conascent, thus, they condition each other by way of conascence, mutuality, support, association. Vipaakacitta and the accompanying cetasikas condition one another by being vipåka. The realities involved in vipåka-condition are phenomena which are conascent, arising at the same time. They assist one another "by effortless quiet''. They are merely vipåka, they have no other activity. As to nutriment condition, this refers to mental nutriment. Just as physical food supports and maintains the body does mental nutriment support and maintain the accompanying dhammas. In the case of mental nutriment the conditioning dhamma is conascent with the conditioned dhammas. As to the mental nutriment which is contact, phassa, this is a cetasika which contacts the object so that citta and the accompanying cetasikas can experience it. As to the mental nutriment which is volition, manosañcetanaa, this is cetanaa cetasika which accompanies all eighty-nine types of citta, thus it can be of the jåti which is kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya. It coordinates the tasks of the citta and cetasikas it accompanies, and conditions them by way of nutriment-condition. As we have seen, kusala cetanaa and akusala cetanaa have a double function: they coordinate the tasks of the accompanying naama-dhammas and also, they motivate wholesome or unwholesome deeds that can bring a result later on. In that case they are “kamma operating from a different time”. But in this context only the mental nutriment that is conascent cetanaa of the jaati that is vipaaka is referred to. As to the mental nutriment which is viññaa.na or citta, this refers to each citta. Citta supports and maintains the accompanying cetasikas, it conditions them by way of nutriment-condition. As to faculty-condition, indriya-paccaya, faculty-condition, the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) has leadership, great control, over the conditioned dhammas (paccayupanna dhammas). Vipaakacitta which is mind-faculty is faculty-condition for the other dhammas arising at that moment. As to presence-condition and non-disappearanace-condition, this refers to citta and cetasikas which are associated. > -------- > > > In my study I explain them all and quote the Tiika, all these can be > > found in the archives. > > James: I am not sure what you mean by "the archives". Could you > direct me to them? -------- N: Take your browser and go to http://dhammastudygroup.org/ Then google: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII. Perhaps Connie or Larry can direct you better, there are too many messages here. But you can find some. Nina. > #82553 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness .. developed body .. nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you. Op 11-feb-2008, om 6:57 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > In brief, it says (#83): > > "...the words 'quite secluded from sense desires' properly mean 'quite > secluded from sense desires as object', and express bodily seclusion, > while the words 'secluded from unprofitable things' properly mean > 'secluded from sense desires as defilement or from all unprofitable > things', and express mental seclusion. And in this case giving up of > pleasure in sense desires is indicated by the first since it only > expresses seclusion from sense desires as object, while acquisition of > pleasure in renunciation is indicated by the second since it expresses > seclusion from sense desire as defilement." ------- N: it may be helpful to know the meaning of the Pali term kaama: sense desires as object: vatthu kaama. It is the basis for sense desires. sense-desires as defilement: kilesa kaama. Nina. #82554 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:09 am Subject: Re: the present moment sukinderpal Hi TG (and Jon and Nina), Sorry for the delay in responding. I am joining your other post with this one. ============== > No TG, I don't think that the Buddha would teach any kind of practice > which would go at the expense of understanding present moment realities. > ..................................................... > NEW TG: What are you talking about? Have you not been paying attention to > my posts? I've said over and over again, just in this last week, that being > mindful of the present is very important! I just don't throw out conceptual > reasoning because of that. The difference is, while I state that Satipatthana is *the only* practice / patipatti, you are saying that there is another `practice', namely "conceptual reasoning" which needs to go along with satipatthana. I would say that satipatthana would not arise were there no intellectual understanding first, in other words, Bhavanamaya panna follows from Suttamaya and Cintamaya panna. While you seem to be talking about the need for conceptual reasoning to `go along with' satipatthana, I believe that each time there is any direct understanding / understanding at a higher level, the understanding at the lower / intellectual level increases. And while I believe that this process continues up until before Arahat, the suttamaya panna and cintamaya panna arising along the way, is *informed by* the experiences of satipatthana, vipassana and magga, what you seem to be saying OTOH, is that there needs to be certain kind of `conceptualizing' not necessarily informed by any direct experience, but in fact somehow "informs" the direct experience. Have I misread you? ==================== > And I think that the situation is similar when it comes to the cemetery > contemplations you refer to in your post to Nina and Sarah. > One is not being asked to "compare and imagine". > ............................................................ > NEW TG: Again, what are you talking about? Have you read the Cemetery > Contemplations? It is exactly to compare that the Buddha is asking us to do. > The Buddha asks us to compare our body to the corpse and to realize that our > body too will become like that. If that aint conceptualization/imagination at > work, I don't know what is. Immediately after sending that post, I realized that I should have first read that part of the Text. I did it later however and marked one part to comment on which later Jon picked out to do so too. Since his comment is better than what I had in mind, I won't bother with that now. But following from my comments above, here you are encouraging `conceptualizing'. While I would just say that conceptualizing, imagination and comparisons occurs naturally to all, the need hence would be to know this as being so, namely `thinking' as thinking rather than to be taking the object of one's thinking so seriously. From what you suggest there seems to imply that the Buddha asked us change from `thinking one way' to `thinking another way'. I don't think that this is what the Buddha intended. I understand that the description given in the Sutta sounds like what one might consider being a form of practice, and I'm sure it is. But it is probably a "samatha practice" situation, which certain Bhikkhus might find themselves in and the Buddha brought it up just as he did in the rest of the Sutta, as reminder about developing satipatthana in all situations. ================ > The whole of the Satipatthana Sutta is about > "satipatthana"Satipatthana Sutta is about "satipa > panna which knows namas and rupas. > ......................................................... > NEW TG: No, it isn't ALL about that. As I have clearly demonstrated. I'll rephrase: The satipatthana Sutta is about the development of satipatthana in any situation. The situations described in the Sutta are those which monks during the Buddha's time and who were his audience then, found themselves in. ;-) ================== > The conventional situations described > are *reminders* about what one might in fact be mindful of when in those > situations instead of going as before, taking everything for "self". > This is one reason why it won't ever work for the so-called meditators, > they have in fact gone ahead and taken the "practice" itself for "self". > ................................................................ > NEW TG: I can't follow this on any level. I'll try from another angle. Without the Buddha's teachings much of our experiences (those involving some sense of `self'), are those of the three papancas, namely tanha, mana and ditthi. This includes those practices that we take in the name `finding the truth' and `being good'. With the Dhamma we come to appreciate what it means to develop Right View which also leads to better understand all three papancas. Without right View one cannot know `wrong view' and tanha and mana would continue to be taken for `I'. The development of understanding includes coming to see how our experiences are taken for `self' in these three ways otherwise we continue instead to "feed" them, including unknowingly when we are involved in `doing good'. ` Formal meditation' as far as I can see, does not involve any Right View, and since it is neither Dana, Sila nor any kind of Samatha bhavana, then it must invariably involve just this feeding of the three papancas, I, me and mine. ================== > I'm still waiting for the quote as expressed in a previous post... I don't remember what that was about. In any case, consider me as being incapable of providing Sutta quotes and instead, please try something else. ;-) ================== > Please note the way the Buddha asks us to "see" the aggregates..Please not > once does he say we need to see them as realities. Please show me a Sutta > quote where the Buddha says we need to see the aggregates or elements are > "realities with their own characteristics."realities with their own characteristics. > Note: please use an actual Sutta quote and not an interpretation by someone > else. Thanks Again no suttas from me. :-( However I think we may need to first make clear one thing, not being sure if we understand each other right. Using `reality' to distinguish from concept is one thing. Insight comes to know nama and rupa as reality / dhamma is one thing. Sure these two in the beginning, are more or less only `ideas' / theory in our minds. Neither of these positions however implies an `attempt' to view experiences *as realities*. Firstly there is no "trying" to see, secondly, one is not being encouraged to project the concept of `reality' on to any experience. In other words, after hearing about it, `visible object' is "real" by virtue of it being understood as an object of one kind, different from say, `chair'. It is the growing understanding of visible object which then defines also how `reality / dhamma' is gradually understood. It is not a case of `reality' being a category which one has chosen to put visible object in and then trying to view the latter a particular way. TG, I am having difficulty expressing myself here. But if you got the main idea, would this be how you understand my position to be? ===================== From the other post: > The reason the Buddha talked in terms of > elements and aggregates is to show what in fact constitutes our > experience from moment to moment. It was not meant to explain the > world > ....................................................... > NEW TG: It was both. As both are integrated and helpful in overcoming > affliction. When the Buddha talks about an adze handle wearing away with usage, > or a sail boat rotting due to the elements, is this to understand our moment > by moment experiences? I don't think so. He's explaining nature and using > "outside" conceptualizations to make his points on impermanence. As Nina pointed out, the adze handle simile was not meant to demonstrate impermanence. Regarding other conventional expressions, for example the "rotting boat" etc, these as you know are nothing new, namely that other religions and philosophies would also arrive at similar examples to demonstrate impermanence. Are you then saying that such conventional examples somehow add to one's understanding of anicca, as in momentary rise and fall? I don't see how a concept of sail-boat and this too added the idea of it being composed of elements which change, could in itself boost one's understanding of momentary anicca! As Nina suggested, while following the idea of sail-boat rotting, so many realities arise and fall away, the `thing to do' would be to understand the impermanence of any reality arisen at that moment, but you don't agree with this..? Instead you are likely to question why the Buddha chose to give these conventional examples rather than referring straight to Khandhas, Ayatanas etc. My answer is his direct audiences were not prone to take those conventional examples the way you are doing. ;-) Now I have one letter of Nina's to respond to, but that one will be tomorrow if not even later. Metta, Sukin #82555 From: han tun Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:26 am Subject: Patthaana (5) hantun1 Dear All, We will now list the 24 Conditions. 1. Root condition (hetu-paccaya) 2. Object condition (aarammana-paccaya) 3. Predominance condition (adhipati-paccaya) 4. Proximity condition (anantara-paccaya) 5. Contiguity condition (samanantara-paccaya) 6. Conascence condition (sahajaata-paccaya) 7. Mutuality condition (a~n~nama~n~na-paccaya) 8. Dependence condition (nissaya-paccaya) 9. Strong Dependence condition (upanissaya-paccaya) 10. Prenascence condition (purejaata-paccaya) 11. Postnascence condition (pacchaajaata-paccaya) 12. Repetition condition (aasevana-paccaya) 13. Kamma condition (kamma-paccaya) 14. Result condition (vipaaka-paccaya) 15. Nutriment condition (aahaara-paccaya) 16. Faculty condition (indriya-paccaya) 17. Jhaana condition (jhaana-paccaya) 18. Path condition (magga-paccaya) 19. Association condition (sampayutta-paccaya) 20. Dissociation condition (vippayutta-paccaya) 21. Presence condition (atthi-paccaya) 22. Absence condition (natthi-paccaya) 23. Disappearance condition (vigata-paccaya) 24. Non-disappearance condition (avigata-paccaya) Notes: In my reference book, (8) nissaya-paccaya and (9) upanissaya-paccaya are translated as Dependence condition and Strong Dependence condition respectively. In A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, (8) nissaya-paccaya and (9) upanissaya-paccaya are translated as Support condition and Decisive support condition respectively. In Nina’s book (8) nissaya-paccaya and (9) upanissaya-paccaya are translated as Dependence condition and Decisive support condition respectively. Now, to be logical, if (9) upanissaya-paccaya is translated as Decisive support condition, (8) nissaya-paccaya should be translated as Support condition as in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma. However, in my reference book and Nina’s book (8) nissaya-paccaya is translated as Dependence condition. I will stick to Nina’s translation in my later presentations, i.e. (8) nissaya-paccaya and (9) upanissaya-paccaya will be translated as Dependence condition and Decisive support condition respectively. To be continued. Metta, Han #82556 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:58 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn dear friends, Part 40 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 512. "Aparimita~nca dukkha.m, bahuuni ca cittadomanassaani; anubhohisi kaamayutto, pa.tinissaja addhuve kaame. 510. "Intent upon sensual pleasures, you will suffer both unlimited pain and much mental distress. Give up unstable sensual pleasures. Aparimita~nca dukkhanti aparimaa.na.m "ettakan"ti paricchinditu.m asakku.neyya.m nirayaadiisu kaayika.m dukkha.m. Bahuuni ca cittadomanassaaniiti citte labbhamaanaani bahuuni anekaani domanassaani cetodukkhaani. Anubhohisiiti anubhavissasi. Kaamayuttoti kaamehi yutto, te appa.tinissajjanto. Pa.tinissaja addhuve kaameti addhuvehi aniccehi kaamehi vinissaja apehiiti attho. 510. Both unlimited (aparimata.m) pain means: bodily pain in the hells, which is immeasurable (aparimaa.na.m), because it is impossible to say, "It is this much." And much mental distress (citta-domanassaani) means: much (bahuuni = anekaani) distress (domanassaani), mental pain (ceto-dukkhaani) tha is in the mind. You will suffer (anubhohisi) means: you will suffer (anubhavissasi). Intent upon sensual pleasures (kaama-yutto) means: intent (yutto) upon sensual pleasures (kaamehi), not having given them up (appa.tinissajjanto). Give up (pa.tinissaja) unstable (addhuve) sensual pleasures (kaame) means: give up (vinissa-ja), flee from, sensual pleasures (kaamehi), which are unstable (addhuvehi), impermanent. 513. "Ajaramhi vijjamaane, ki.m tava kaamehi yesu jaraa; mara.nabyaadhigahia, sabbaa sabbattha jaatiyo. 511. "When the unageing exists, what do you want with sensual pleasures? All births everywhere are bound up with birth, death, and sickness. Jaraamara.nabyaadhigahitaa, sabbaa sabbattha jaatiyoti yasmaa hiinaadibhedabhinnaa sabbattha bhavaadiisu jaatiyo jaraamara.nabyaadhinaa ca gahitaa, tehi aparimuttaa, tasmaa ajaramhi nibbaane vijjamaane jaraadiihi aparimuttehi kaamehi ki.m tava payojananti yojanaa. Eva.m nibbaanagu.nadassanamukhena kaamesu bhavesu ca aadiinava.m pakaasetvaa idaani nibbattita.m nibbaanagu.nameva pakaasentii "idamajaran"ti-aadinaa dve gaathaa abhaasi. 511. All births everywhere are bound up with ageing, death, and sickness (jaraa-mara.na-byaadhi-gahitaa) means: since birth everywhere, in diffeenct existences divided into sorts such as inferior, etc, are bound up (gahitaa) with old age, death, and sickness, [and] is not liberated from them, therefore, when the unageing, quenching, exists, what business do you have with sensual pleasures that are not liberated from old age, etc. Having explained the danger in the existence of the sensual pleasures through showing the virtues of quenching, now she explains the virtue of quenching that has been produced and she speaks the two verses beginning This is unageing. .. to be continued, connie #82557 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Tep (and James), I wanted to study this further: Me: "...At any rate, concepts are dhammaarammanaa, and perhaps this is the way in which they have their 'reality' - as objects of consciousness." Scott: First of all, I recall the phrase in the commentary to Abhidhammattha Sangaha (CMA, Bh. Bodhi, ed., p. 77) that "all mental phenomena experience an object". In this sense, 'person' as concept is experienced through the mind door. In comparing types of consciousness, it is noted (p.132), in relation to 'doors' that "...[i]n any single door, all types of sense-sphere consciousness can occur except for the four pairs of sense consciousness pertaining to the other four sense faculties..." Regarding the mind door, it is stated that "[a]ll fifty-five types of javana occur in the mind door. Only twenty-two cittas do not occur in the mind door: the five-door adverting, the two sets of fivefold sense consciousness, the two types of receiving consciousness, the five fine-material resultants, and the four immaterial resultants." Here, 'person' as concept is a post-sense-door phenomenon. This means that there is no 'person' externally to be perceived by either seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or touching. In considering the 'reality' of a concept, one way is to determine where it has its 'location'. I'd suggest that the concept is a mind-door phenomenon. It does not exist externally. It is not apprehended by any of the five sense-door consciousnesses. Therefore, 'person' is not perceived in any of the sense-doors. 'Person' is an object of the mind-door and hence has its 'reality' as a function of the 'dynamics' of consciousness and its conascent mental factors. In other words 'person' as concept is constructed mentally after the process whereby objects are experienced by the consciousnesses of the sense-doors. This means, to me, that the only 'reality' to be accorded to 'person' is due to the fact that concept is object of mind-door consciousness. It is an object experienced by mind-door consciousness and the citta in the mind-door is the reality which has ultimate existence, not concept which can be its object. Objects of the sense-door 'pertain only to the present', while objects of the mind door 'may be past, present, future or independent of time', and concepts (p.137). The commentary suggests that 'concepts are timeless in that they are devoid of intrinsic nature'. This applies to 'person'. Sincerely, Scott. #82558 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Jon, James, Tep, and all) - In a message dated 2/10/2008 10:27:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Jon, James, Tep, All. Just as a certain level of insight sees there is no "person" in terms of a "singular self contained thing;" so too, a deeper level of insight can see that the elements, aggregates are also not "self contained things." Therefore, in truth, to see elements, aggregates individually, is the same type of delusion as to see a "person" as a real self contained thing. Seeing elements is just more refined and a little closer to the truth of the matter. But it is still removed from the truth of the matter. Focusing on the elements, aggregates to uproot the idea of "person" is useful. Deeper insight focuses on the conditionality of elements, aggregates, to realize that these things are also empty, hollow, and not worth adhering to. To linger on them as "realities" is counterproductive. TG ============================= I agree with this in substance. Aggregations are integrated collections of evanescent phenomena-in-relation. Those phenomena themselves, while not, I think composed of other phenomena in quite the same way, still *are* aggregations in a sense. They are not instantaneous phenomena, but changing phenomena, namic and rupic, that pass through stages. The commentaries point to this in the mention of the rising, stasis, and declining stages of a rupa, and it is obvious that namic operations are phenomena that change though time. And, of course, all the paramattha dhammas are conditioned by a variety of mutual conditionings and preconditionings, so that not any one of them is a thing-in-itself. The Buddha's speaking in several suttas of swelling and receding of bodies of water is excellent metaphor for the ebb-and-flow dynamism of ungraspable reality. With metta, Howard #82559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:05 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 3, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the Theragathå, Canto CXVIII, Kimbila, that the Buddha, in order to stir him, conjured up a beautiful woman in her prime, and showed her to him passing to old age. Kimbila uttered the verse: “As bidden by some power age over her falls. Her shape is as another, yet the same. Now this myself, who never have left myself, Seems other than the self I recollect.” Thus, when a person becomes older his body change although he is still the same individual. The body consists of rúpas that arise and fall away. What arises and falls away is not beautiful, not attractive. The colour a person sees is only colour, not feminine beauty. That colour falls away, never to return. Where is the beauty? At the first stage of principal insight the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa is realized. Kimbila listened to the Buddha and developed understanding. One may want realities to be different from what they are, but the dhammas that have arisen already cannot be changed. One may unknowingly cling to an idea of a self who must subdue lobha and dosa. One may cling to the idea of wanting to be a good person without defilements. When one fails to suppress lobha and dosa there is frustration and disappointment, even despair. We may notice that we have aversion, dosa, but we do not realize it as a dhamma, arising because of its proper conditions. At the first stage of insight, the difference between the characteristic of nåma and of rúpa is clearly realized, not before that. One begins to understand nåma as nåma and rúpa as rúpa. This means, we begin to see the nåma that appears as a dhamma and the rúpa that appears as a dhamma. Before this stage of insight is attained, there is still a notion of “my aversion”, and “my attachment”, even though we have intellectual understanding of the fact that they are cetasikas, non-self. We have not really penetrated the truth of anattå. Acharn Sujin said: ”You have to understand your own life, your accumulated inclinations, otherwise you can never become a sotåpanna. One should be very courageous in order to develop the real Path, not the wrong Path.” ******* #82560 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (5) nilovg Dear Han, For me it does not matter what translation you like to use. It is best to mention the Pali as well. In different books different translations are used. Nina. Op 11-feb-2008, om 12:26 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Now, to be logical, if (9) upanissaya-paccaya is > translated as Decisive support condition, (8) > nissaya-paccaya should be translated as Support > condition as in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma. #82561 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 2/11/2008 8:01:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Here, 'person' as concept is a post-sense-door phenomenon. This means that there is no 'person' externally to be perceived by either seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or touching. In considering the 'reality' of a concept, one way is to determine where it has its 'location'. I'd suggest that the concept is a mind-door phenomenon. It does not exist externally. It is not apprehended by any of the five sense-door consciousnesses. Therefore, 'person' is not perceived in any of the sense-doors. ============================== I agree with this. IMO persons, and all aggregations, are strictly mind-door objects. That doesn't make them "unreal," of course. The water element, it is said, is also purely a mind-door object. In any case, aggregations are not singular phenomena, they are known only by means of mental cognition, and their merely aggregational nature is known by insight resulting from clear observation. With metta, Howard #82562 From: han tun Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:19 am Subject: Perfections Corner (88) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) We read further on in the Commentary: “As regards King Pukkusaati, he arranged for decorations beginning with the border area. He arranged that the city would be decorated so that the royal present from King Bimbisaara could be received. When the royal present arrived in Takkasilaa it was a day of vigil (uposatha). The courtiers who received the royal present announced the contents of the royal official letter to the King. After the King had listened to this he considered the duties he had to fulfill towards the courtiers who had come to offer the royal present. He let the royal present be carried to the palace and he said, ‘Let nobody enter here’. He asked people to guard the gate, he opened the window (used for receiving at official occasions), he had the royal present placed on a high bed, and he himself sat down on a low seat. He broke the royal seal, and he took off the coverings. When he opened the boxes subsequently and saw the box made of bamboomatting, he considered, ‘I believe that other Gems do not have such accompaniments, and thus we should listen to this Jewel. This Jewel was certainly born in the Middle Country.’ When he had opened those boxes and broken the royal seal, he took away from both sides the delicate blanket made of animal hair, he saw the golden sheet and unrolled this. He considered: ‘These letters are really beautifully carved out in all details: they are of equal size, neat and quadrangle. I will start to read them from the beginning.’ An intense feeling of joy arose in the King when he read and reread about the excellent qualities of the Buddha who appeared in this world. The tips of the ninetynine thousand bodyhairs stood on end. Because of his extreme delight and rapture the King did not know whether he should stand or sit down. When intense rapture arose within the King he said: ‘We heard the teachings which are difficult to come across, even in a hundred thousand aeons, and this could happen because of a friend.’ When the King was unable to read on, he sat down until his rapture quieted down. Then he started to read on about the excellent qualities of the Dhamma: ‘The Dhamma that was wellspoken by the Buddha...’ The King experienced intense rapture and he sat down again until the strength of his rapture quieted down. After that he read about the excellent qualities of the Sangha, ‘The ariyan disciples practise in the right way...’ and he experienced intense rapture in the same way. Then he read about the meditation subject of Mindfulness of Breathing, and finally he attained the fourth and the fifth stage of jhåna. The King spent his time with the happiness of jhåna. Other people could not see him, except for the royal page. About one month passed in this way. The citizens assembled at the royal courtyard and announced with acclamations: ‘Since the day the King has received the royal present he has not looked anymore at the city nor at the shows of the dancing girls nor has he given judgement. May the King return the royal present to his friend.’ The citizens said further: ‘Usually Kings try to deceive even with presents. They try to get hold of the kingdom of other Kings. What should our King do?’ The King heard the sound of these acclamations and he considered: ‘Shall we maintain the Kingdom or shall we maintain the teachings?’ After that he thought, ‘We shall maintain the teachings of this Teacher.’ He took his sword which he kept on a bed and cut off his hair. He requested his royal page to buy two yellow robes and an earthenware alms bowl at the market. He dedicated himself to the Teacher with the words, ‘Arahats in the world, we dedicate ourselves in going forth.’ He put on one yellow robe and then donned another one. He carried his bowl on his shoulder and left his palace. The citizens saw three dance girls standing at the three doors, but they could not recognize the King who came out of the palace. They thought that he was a Silent Buddha who had come to preach Dhamma to the King.” King Pukkusaati left his royal palace and all his possessions in order to go forth. He must have had the utmost patience to change his usual way of life and status, in order to be able to realize the four noble Truths. If one has not accumulated such patience one is not able to act like King Pukkusaati. To be continued. Metta, Han #82563 From: "Jim Anderson" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (3) jimanderson_on Dear Sarah, It's been a long time since we communicated and it's been years since I last posted to this group. I'm only here for a brief visit like my recent visits to Toronto and Montreal. I prefer to be where it's quieter and to concentrate on a line or two at a time. The traffic here is just too much for a country bumpkin like me. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Jim (& Canadians), > > Super to hear from you again! It would be wonderful if you'd look > over the thread and point out any other errors anytime! Thanks to > Nina (& Han) for prompting your careful perusal:-). Yes, I've been looking over the thread and will report on errors pertaining to myself and U Thitzana but not on the Pa.t.thaana as that really is over my head. I'd like to report on one error I made myself. I met with U Thitzana last Tues. and Wed. (Feb. 5 & 6) not Thurs. Sorry for the mix up. > [Btw, we last heard from you, there have been quite a few other > Canadian members posting regularly here, including Scott & Alex >(Edmonton), Elaine (Toronto), Ann (Toronto/Vancouver), Phil >(Montreal/Japan).....occasionally Rob M (Toronto/Malaysia), > Alyssa (Toronto).... Joel was also from Quebec(are you still > around, Joel?), and I vaguely recall a couple of others > from Toronto, but not for a while, (Tom R, I think...)] This is interesting. I did not know Alyssa was on this list until now. She joined my Pali study list last Oct. and she is the only other Canadian resident on the list. I probably don't know any of the other Canadians on DSG. I backchecked some of the messages from Alyssa and was surprised to learn of her connection to the Burmese temple in Toronto. U Thitzana who is a Burmese monk himself knows a monk at that temple and there is also a Burmese monk on my list who has a connection to the founder of that temple. There is a chance that U Thitzana may come to Toronto on his next visit to Canada, possibly next year. So some of the Toronto members on DSG may get an opportunity to meet him. If such a visit is to take place I will be sure to inform DSG'ers or I could be contacted offlist for updates. > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > Jim: Not correct. I met with him this past Wednesday and Thursday > > at a Vietnamese meditation center in Laval, Quebec. I am not > > going to meet him in Singapore. Ashin Thitzana is now leading a > > Vipassanaa retreat at the Laval center and I think it will be a > > while yet before he is in Singapore. > ..... > S: I was very surprised to hear you'd be going to Sing., so glad > you've corrected this. I know that even the trip to Quebec would > have been a major excursion. If there's anything you'd care to > share about the meeting, I know others besides myself would be very > glad to hear (whether the personal impressions and details or the > Dhamma content of such). I posted a short report on my trip to the Quebec meditation centre to my Pali study group. The report is available offlist to anyone interested and who requests a copy via my email address: jimanderson_on@... . I could have posted it here but it doesn't seem like the right thing to do. > Metta and very best wishes for the New Year, Jim. Same to you. The Vietnamese were also celebrating the New Year on Feb. 7. > Sarah > > p.s No need to reply if you're busy chopping wood and studying or > would just prefer not to get involved. I haven't been chopping wood lately but have been shovelling lots of snow. I would like to get back to my Kaccaayana studies and so won't be staying here too long. Otherwise, it'll take years to break away. But I don't mind dropping by once in a blue moon for ahort visit. With metta, Jim #82564 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 3, no 3. nilovg Hi Tep, I found the sutta in PTS and also in B.B. Annotation: I meant the title and numbering, so that I could find it. Op 9-feb-2008, om 21:13 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > The followings sutta quotes describe some of the great benefits > > > of satipatthåna. The last quote [SN 47.40] says that the noble > > > eightfold path is called "the path of practice" to the development > of > > > satipatthåna. Why is it so? ------ N: Right understanding of nama and rupa is developed through satipatthaana. That is the practice. But the development of the eightfold Path is also the practice. Different aspects are given. Through satipatthana we learn about the objects of mindfulness and understanding: nama and rupa, even when the Buddha speaks about foulness of the body, the postures, etc. The factors of the eightfold Path develop together with right view. In the sutta above it is said that the development of the eightfold Path leads to satipatthana. I think that all the Path factors comprised in sila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa are a support to see the body as body, feeling as feeling, citta as citta, dhammas as dhammas, seeing them as non-self. The Path factors and also the four Applications of Mindfulness are included in the factors leading to enlightenment. Nina. #82565 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking. nilovg Hi Howard, a former post on thinking. Op 30-jan-2008, om 19:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Thus, when I think: now I go to the kitchen and I have to do some > cooking, the cittas are already akusala cittas, rooted in lobha > mostly. But we do not notice this. We are ignorant most of the time. > 'Today I have to go shopping', akusala citta already. You will > understand that these are not vipaakacittas. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I understand them as akusala, kammic mind states, because they involve > tanha-based cetana. But there are other states during thinking that > are not > such. Those other states may or may not be kamma vipaka. -------- N: I would like to distinguish kamma and vipaka and not use them as one expression. I find it confusing. -------- > H: If they are > conditioned by kammic states, i.e., by states of kusala or akusala > willing, then they > *are* the fruition of kamma, but if they are conditioned only by > non-kammic > states (kiriya cittas and vipaka cittas), then they are not. That's > how it > seems to me. > --------------------------------------------------------- N: The way you see thinking is not clear to me. Thinking is not the fruit of kamma, it is active: kusala or akusala. It is conditioned by accumulated inclinations, kusala or akusala. Not by kamma. Kamma is a deed that can produce result later on. ----- Old post on the processes: Mano-dhaatu are the sense- door adverting consciousness (kiriyacitta, the first one of a sense- door process), and receiving-consciousness (resultant) ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You're saying that it is BOTH adverting AND receiving? -------- N: No, these are different cittas. One is mano-dhaatu kiriyacitta and one is mano-dhaatu vipaakacitta. --------- H: A first occurrence of is adverting and the second receiving? What is the difference? (Also, how is the term 'receving' to be understood? The name isn't enough - the meaning is needed. --------------------------------------------------------- N: After the vipaakacitta that is seeing, etc. kamma produces two more vipaakacittas: receiving consciousness which receives the object from seeing, etc. and investigating-consciousness, which investigates more visible object, etc. It is all so fast that it seems that these two cittas are still seeing. Adverting is the first adverting to the new object that impinges on a sense organ after the stream of bhavangacittas is arested. It does not see, it is only turning towards the new object. Nina. #82566 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/11/2008 2:41:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, a former post on thinking. Op 30-jan-2008, om 19:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Thus, when I think: now I go to the kitchen and I have to do some > cooking, the cittas are already akusala cittas, rooted in lobha > mostly. But we do not notice this. We are ignorant most of the time. > 'Today I have to go shopping', akusala citta already. You will > understand that these are not vipaakacittas. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I understand them as akusala, kammic mind states, because they involve > tanha-based cetana. But there are other states during thinking that > are not > such. Those other states may or may not be kamma vipaka. -------- N: I would like to distinguish kamma and vipaka and not use them as one expression. I find it confusing. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: When write 'kamma vipaka' I mean "the fruit of kamma" as opposed to the result of something else. But I take your point. ----------------------------------------------- -------- > H: If they are > conditioned by kammic states, i.e., by states of kusala or akusala > willing, then they > *are* the fruition of kamma, but if they are conditioned only by > non-kammic > states (kiriya cittas and vipaka cittas), then they are not. That's > how it > seems to me. > --------------------------------------------------------- N: The way you see thinking is not clear to me. Thinking is not the fruit of kamma, it is active: kusala or akusala. It is conditioned by accumulated inclinations, kusala or akusala. Not by kamma. Kamma is a deed that can produce result later on. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Kamma can produce immediate results as well. This is very clear to me. In any case, as I see it, thinking and willing do not occur at the same time. Thinking arises from a multiplicity of conditions, prominent among which is willing. The thinking is often intentional in that it is almost immediately preceded by willing, but more often the thinking seems to "come on its own", not carrying a sense of "personal doing". The thoughts seem to arise as impersonal phenomena, and the states of volition are distinguishable from states of thinking, at least for me. ---------------------------------------------- ----- Old post on the processes: Mano-dhaatu are the sense- door adverting consciousness (kiriyacitta, the first one of a sense- door process), and receiving-consciousness (resultant) ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You're saying that it is BOTH adverting AND receiving? -------- N: No, these are different cittas. One is mano-dhaatu kiriyacitta and one is mano-dhaatu vipaakacitta. --------- H: A first occurrence of is adverting and the second receiving? What is the difference? (Also, how is the term 'receving' to be understood? The name isn't enough - the meaning is needed. --------------------------------------------------------- N: After the vipaakacitta that is seeing, etc. kamma produces two more vipaakacittas: receiving consciousness which receives the object from seeing, etc. and investigating-consciousness, which investigates more visible object, etc. It is all so fast that it seems that these two cittas are still seeing. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I've got the word 'receiving', but it is just a word. To say that receiving consciousness receives the the object from seeing etc tells me nothing. What does it MEAN to "receive" it? What does that state of conscious do? How is its knowing of the object by reciving consciousness different from the knowing of it by other states? If there is no answer to that, then the notion of "receiving comnsciousness" isn't of any value. ------------------------------------------------------------ Adverting is the first adverting to the new object that impinges on a sense organ after the stream of bhavangacittas is arested. It does not see, it is only turning towards the new object. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that is clear. It is a turning of attention to a new object. ----------------------------------------------------------- Nina. ========================= With metta, Howard #82567 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 3, no 3. dhammanusara Dear Nina, - We are discussing SN 47.40 :Satipatthana-vibhanga Sutta, which states: "Now, what are the frames of reference? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "This is called the frames of reference. "And what is the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference." ............ > Nina: > In the sutta above it is said that the development of the eightfold > Path leads to satipatthana. > I think that all the Path factors comprised in sila, samaadhi and > pa~n~naa are a support to see the body as body, feeling as feeling, > citta as citta, dhammas as dhammas, seeing them as non-self. > The Path factors and also the four Applications of Mindfulness are > included in the factors leading to enlightenment. T: I see. I understand that it is because samma-sati (right mindfulness) is nothing but the four frames of reference. Therefore, when a monk develops the noble eightfold path the four frames of reference are also developed at the same time. "And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves .. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself ... (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness. [SN 45.8 : Magga-vibhanga Sutta] ............... Tep === #82568 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes dhammanusara Dear Scott, (Howard, James) - I also like to study it along with you guys. :-) >Scott: ... 'person' as concept is experienced through the mind door. ... Here, 'person' as concept is a post-sense-door phenomenon. This means that there is no 'person' externally to be perceived by either seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or touching. T: The mentally formed concept is a derivative of a person outside. If there was no person (rupa) outside for the eyes to see, how could the mind form an image inside? A ray of sunlight passes through a prism, and a color spectrum is seen. Are there not "real" colors in the white- light input to the prism? >Scott: In considering the 'reality' of a concept, one way is to determine where it has its 'location'. I'd suggest that the concept is a mind-door phenomenon. It does not exist externally. It is not apprehended by any of the five sense-door consciousnesses. Therefore, 'person' is not perceived in any of the sense-doors. T: The only thing about what you said that is true is that mind-door perception is not the same as the external reality: a person -- the carrier of the five khandhas, who exists external to the observer. Remember SN 22.22 ? "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' it should be said. ... "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name: This is called the carrier of the burden.". ................ >Scott (making a kind of summary): ... 'person' as concept is constructed mentally after the process whereby objects are experienced by the consciousnesses of the sense-doors. This means, to me, that the only 'reality' to be accorded to 'person' is due to the fact that concept is object of mind-door consciousness. T: The object of mind-door consciousness is not the only reality. The mental formations by the observer are another reality, and the external khandhas are another reality. Question: is the "carrier of the burden" a reality too? ..................... Tep === #82569 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: > Hi Jon, - > > I know, I know. Even a mundane family matter often requires > clarification and reclarification ! So it doesn't come as a surprise > to me if we may disagree again on an issue that we earlier thought > was agreeable. I'm not sure we're actually disagreeing on this point. Let's see how it goes ... ;-)) >> Jon: >> Just to clarify, I expressed no view on the question of whether or >> not it can be said there are "persons in the real world". Likewise I >> have not joined in the discussion on the question of whether persons >> can be said to "exist". I think it more useful to discuss the matter >> of dhammas in the ultimate sense. I find that a better understanding >> of the Buddha's teaching on dhammas seems to resolve the other >> questions quite readily. > > T: I see. You've made it clear that the question on "existence of > persons" is not of your interest. I'm sorry if it sounded that way. It's really a matter of relevance or significance rather than lack of interest. What I mean is that, as far as the development of the path taught by the Buddha is concerned, what is important is what is real/not real in the ultimate sense. Because it is the knowledge of these "realities" as they truly are (and only these "realities") that is the development of insight. Other gradations of real/not real are, as I see it, not of the same significance/relevance. Specifically, I'm not sure that anything really turns on the question of whether it can be said (at some level or other) that persons exist/do not exist, as far as the development of the path is concerned. I'd be interested to know how you see this. Jon #82570 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes dhammanusara Hi Howard (Scott, James), - I commend Scott for his creative thesis on reality and concept. >Scott: > > Here, 'person' as concept is a post-sense-door phenomenon. This means that there is no 'person' externally to be perceived by either seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or touching. > > In considering the 'reality' of a concept, one way is to determine > where it has its 'location'. I'd suggest that the concept is a > mind-door phenomenon. It does not exist externally. It is not > apprehended by any of the five sense-door consciousnesses. > Therefore,'person' is not perceived in any of the sense-doors. > > > ============================== Howard: I agree with this. IMO persons, and all aggregations, are strictly mind-door objects. That doesn't make them "unreal," of course. The water element, it is said, is also purely a mind-door object. In any case, aggregations are not singular phenomena, they are known only by means of mental cognition, and their merely aggregational nature is known by insight resulting from clear observation. ................. T: Thank you, Howard, for your cleverness in detecting a crack in Scott's theory. There are two phenomena here, the external person who thinks, eats, talks, walks, etc., and the internal mental image of the observer. Scott is right about the observer's mental image (a concept) that "does not exist externally". But he is mistaken to conclude that "there is no 'person' externally to be perceived". Tep === #82571 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Scott) - In a message dated 2/11/2008 6:37:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Howard (Scott, James), - I commend Scott for his creative thesis on reality and concept. >Scott: > > Here, 'person' as concept is a post-sense-door phenomenon. This means that there is no 'person' externally to be perceived by either seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or touching. > > In considering the 'reality' of a concept, one way is to determine > where it has its 'location'. I'd suggest that the concept is a > mind-door phenomenon. It does not exist externally. It is not > apprehended by any of the five sense-door consciousnesses. > Therefore,'person' is not perceived in any of the sense-doors. > > > ============================== Howard: I agree with this. IMO persons, and all aggregations, are strictly mind-door objects. That doesn't make them "unreal," of course. The water element, it is said, is also purely a mind-door object. In any case, aggregations are not singular phenomena, they are known only by means of mental cognition, and their merely aggregational nature is known by insight resulting from clear observation. ................. T: Thank you, Howard, for your cleverness in detecting a crack in Scott's theory. There are two phenomena here, the external person who thinks, eats, talks, walks, etc., and the internal mental image of the observer. Scott is right about the observer's mental image (a concept) that "does not exist externally". But he is mistaken to conclude that "there is no 'person' externally to be perceived". Tep =============================== I agree with you, Tep, that there is are actual persons. But they are only an aggregations, and your formulation bothers me as to emphasis and implication. A "person" such as you describe becomes an actor/agent. As conventional speech it is fine, but the reality is that a person is just an aggregation, and the speaking, talking, and walking each consists of a sub-aggregation of the phenomena of which the person is composed, acting in concert. In fact, even those component phenomena are not actors. They are not "things that act," but are the actions/events/operations themselves. There is a real danger in letting atta-view slip in "through the back door" when speaking of persons and of aggregations in general. One tends to reify them and, in one's imagination, to turn them into singular agents. We are all predisposed to one extreme or the other: nihilism & annihilationism, or substantialism & eternalism/continualism. The Dhamma is a razor's edge, and in attempting to tread that thin and sharp middle-way edge, it is very easy to misstep, receive a deep cut, and, wounded, fall off to one side or the other. Of the two extremes, the substantialist/eternalist side, the extreme of atta-view, is, IMO, the more dangerous, and I think the Buddha's teaching, accordingly, puts most emphasis on deconstruction. Beware of alleged persons who are actors/agents - they don't literally exist! With metta, Howard #82572 From: "Sumane Rathnasuriya" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:30 pm Subject: Re:Discourteous Speech - to be tolerated? sumane758 Thank you Sarah, your reminder from Buddha vaachaa & KSujin that > "When someone has done wrong, he is likely to be blamed > by society. If we believe that we should join in > judging that person and blaming him time and again, > the citta is akusala and then we are actually on the > side of Adhamma, not of Dhamma. If sati-sampaja~n~na > arises, we can have loving-kindness and patience; we > can refrain from blaming someone else, so that > aversion and other kinds of akusala do not increase." saved me from near inclination to current politics & continued akusala. I am non-politically involved in a govt. program to basically fight high COL & consume chemical-free food whereby, was on the verge of countering (meaningless) opposition criticism thereon, quite not my line but the cause, to which I was devoted, did identify me with govt.'s thinking (as I fathomed it to be). Sure, my aspirations to be exemplary to my immediate community too had weight in the purported countering move. Worse, that could have led those others in my community here too to such akusala. No. I can have patience that I always was exercising & realize that I am also saving valuable time from unwanted thoughts & perhaps unwanted retaliatory akusala. If it amounts to Sati sampaja~n~na may it be but now with your reminder, I am saving such akusala for myself & for those others too. *Mind that continuously practices "Meththaa' has deviated with deeds of lay commitments that were accessed involuntarily & seemingly harmlessly!* Thanx again for timely *intervention *& Meththaa! Sumane -- #82573 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro lbidd2 Hi Ken, Ken: "As long as there is no idea of control, we can say "should" as often as we like: "we should study Dhamma" "we should put study into practice" "we should stop hankering after sense pleasures" . . .etc., etc. That is all true in the ultimate sense of should, but not in the conventional sense (of 'things to do' 'people who do things' and 'control')." Larry: I see "should" as a potential condition. Sometimes it conditions the arising of a prompted consciousness. Sometimes it doesn't. In the case of "should" _not_ conditioning the arising of a wholesome prompted consciousness, I think it would be profitable to investigate why it failed. Two possible reasons are not understanding what should be done and not having confidence in the one who says "should". No doubt there are other possible reasons. As an experiment, if I asked, "What sort of dhammas arise when you get angry?", could you answer? For example, does a hardness arise in your body accompanied by unpleasant feeling? I'm not interested in what a hypothetical monk experiences. I want to know what _you_ experience. Can you tell me what you experience? Larry #82574 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. buddhatrue Hi Jon (and Tep), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > What I mean is that, as far as the development of the path taught by the > Buddha is concerned, what is important is what is real/not real in the > ultimate sense. Because it is the knowledge of these "realities" as > they truly are (and only these "realities") that is the development of > insight. James: This issue is important because to believe that people don't exist is a distortion in perception, wrong view, and harmful. Those who believe people don't exist cannot possibly develop insight because they cannot develop mundane right view (a necessary first step). Additionally, the followers of KS take this distortion of perception even further and believe that, because there is supposedly no person, intentional practice isn't possible and/or harmful. So, they float on the winds of kamma hoping that just listening to the Dhamma will make a difference. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but they run the risk of wasting their opportunity of being born in the human realm. Metta, James #82575 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:15 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,238 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 238. Or alternatively: A man in pain for pleasure longs, And finding pleasure, longs for more; The peace of equanimity Is counted pleasure too; therefore The Greatest Sage announced the law 'With feeling as condition, craving', Since all three feelings thus can be Conditions for all kinds of craving. Though feeling is condition, still Without inherent tendency No craving can arise, and so From this the perfect saint is free.40 This is the detailed explanation of the clause 'With feeling as condition, craving'. ---------------------- Note 40. ' "Though feeling is condition" is said in order to prevent generalization from the preceding words "With feeling as condition" to the effect that craving arises in the presence of every condition accompanied by feeling.--BUT is it not impossible to prevent over-generalization in the absence of any such statements as "Feeling accompanied by inherent tendency is a condition for craving"?--No; for we are dealing with an exposition of the round of rebirths. Since there is no round of rebirths without inherent tendencies, so far as the meaning is concerned it may be taken for granted that the condition is accompanied by inherent tendency. Or alternatively, it may be recognized that this condition is accompanied by inherent tendency because it follows upon the words "With ignorance as condition". And with the words "With feeling as condition, caving" the ruling needed is this: "There is craving only with feeling as condition", and not "With feeling as condition there is only craving" ' (Pm.). For inherent tendencies see Ch. XXII,45 & 60; M> Sutta 64. The Arahant has none. ************************ 238.yasmaa vaa, dukkhii sukha.m patthayati, sukhii bhiyyopi icchati. upekkhaa pana santattaa, sukhamicceva bhaasitaa.. ta.nhaaya paccayaa tasmaa, honti tissopi vedanaa. vedanaapaccayaa ta.nhaa, iti vuttaa mahesinaa.. vedanaapaccayaa caapi, yasmaa naanusaya.m vinaa. hoti tasmaa na saa hoti, braahma.nassa vusiimatoti.. aya.m vedanaapaccayaa ta.nhaati padasmi.m vitthaarakathaa. #82576 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. dhammanusara Dear Jon, - I thought we had been so agreeable in the Dhamma that there was nothing left for discussion ! > Jon: > What I mean is that, as far as the development of the path taught by the Buddha is concerned, what is important is what is real/not real in the ultimate sense. Because it is the knowledge of these "realities" as they truly are (and only these "realities") that is the development of insight. > Other gradations of real/not real are, as I see it, not of the same significance/relevance. T: Yes, only the knowledge (~nana) of the dhammas (e.g. ariya-sacca) is important for the path development. But only an ariyan has 'yathabhuta~nana-dassana' of the dhammas, or knowing & seeing phenomena(e.g. the sense media, the five khandhas) the way they really are -- i.e. seeing only nama & rupa, not a being as a basis for the assumption 'I am'. ................ > Jon: > Specifically, I'm not sure that anything really turns on the question of whether it can be said (at some level or other) that persons exist/do not exist, as far as the development of the path is concerned. I'd be interested to know how you see this. > T: Yes, I also understand that whether or not beings/persons are real, that "knowledge" is not relevant to the path development. In the same token asking "Is there a self?" or "Is there no self?" does not contribute to the path penetration. "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing." [MN 2] Regards, Tep === #82577 From: "crosby_s" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:05 pm Subject: Not Self and Ego Questions. crosby_s Can anyone explain this to me, how are we not self or how have we no self, I cant quite grasp the term of their not being a self? have I phrased this sentence right and does it make sense? And did buddha still have an Ego after Nibbana? And is their good ego and bad ego if their is ego at all? I am having Trouble understanding these phenomena if you call them that. With Metta Steven. #82578 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes dhammanusara Hi Howard (and Scott), - Thank you for giving me a clear explanation about your postulate on aggregation & reality of a person. But I am not fully convinced that the idea is right. So please allow me to elaborate a little. >T: Thank you, Howard, for your cleverness in detecting a crack in Scott's theory. There are two phenomena here, the external person who thinks, eats, talks, walks, etc., and the internal mental image of the observer. Scott is right about the observer's mental image (a concept) that "does not exist externally". But he is mistaken to conclude that "there is no 'person' externally to be perceived". Howard: I agree with you, Tep, that there is are actual persons. But they are only an aggregations, and your formulation bothers me as to emphasis and implication. A "person" such as you describe becomes an actor/agent. As conventional speech it is fine, but the reality is that a person is just an aggregation, and the speaking, talking, and walking each consists of a sub-aggregation of the phenomena of which the person is composed, acting in concert. In fact, even those component phenomena are not actors. They are not "things that act," but are the actions/events/operations themselves. T: I do not understand why/how the aggregation produces no action. Actual persons who do not act? But kamma means action; walking, talking, etc. are actions. Because of their kamma resultants becoming and rebirth follow. The real problem(dukkha) is caused by clinging (upadana) to the khandhas; it is not because a person is an actor/agent. Howard: There is a real danger in letting atta-view slip in "through the back door" when speaking of persons and of aggregations in general. One tends to reify them and, in one's imagination, to turn them into singular agents. We are all predisposed to one extreme or the other: nihilism & annihilationism, or substantialism & ternalism/continualism. T: Upadanakkhandha is suffering. Khandhas are the "burden" and a person is the carrier of such burden [See SN 22.22]. The twenty self views (attanuditthi) arise because of the clinging to the five aggregates; you abandon "atta view" by seeing drawbacks of the clinging to the khandhas (since they are impermanent and lead to suffering). Howard: The Dhamma is a razor's edge, and in attempting to tread that thin and sharp middle-way edge, it is very easy to misstep, receive a deep cut, and, wounded, fall off to one side or the other. Of the two extremes, the substantialist/eternalist side, the extreme of atta-view, is, IMO, the more dangerous, and I think the Buddha's teaching, accordingly, puts most emphasis on deconstruction. Beware of alleged persons who are actors/agents - they don't literally exist! T: The middle-way approach(avoiding the two extremes) is to practice appropriate attention of the FNT that abandon the wrong views. Acording to MN 2, the extreme views are caused by inappropriate attention as follows: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? ... ...' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... .. or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... ... : This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. [end quote] Tep === #82579 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:55 pm Subject: a relevent question reverendagga... Hi everybody! Recently i thought i would try the socratic method, and ask a few relevent questions. i started out by asking wether there was something in the Pali Canon where Ven.Gotama declares " i teach neither "self" nor "noself". After a response i then asked that if we are neither "self" nor "noself" then how do we exist? The Answer? That such Questions are "irelevent"! i was told that what IS relevent is the 4N.T the 8 fold noble path etc. The first fold of the 8 fold noble path is ...Right understanding! How are we to acheve liberation if we do not know the nature of what it is that seeks liberation? When questions become "uncomfortable" for some, they become... "irelevent". i was a wood finisher for many years before i became a Buddhist monk. i had to be taught wood technology as an apprentice, which taught me the importance of understanding the nature of the existance of wood as someone who works with it. i therefore certainly do NOT concider such a question "irelevent". HOW ARE WE TO ACHEVE LIBERATION IF WE DO NOT KNOW THE NATURE OF WHAT IT IS THAT SEEKS LIBERATION? May the Buddhas, Deva and Angels bless ALL of you! bhikkhu / reverend aggacitto #82580 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro kenhowardau Hi Larry, If I know something about conditioned dhammas it is only because I have studied Abhidhamma. Before that, I thought it was I (a self) who was angry or happy etc. Now you are asking me to describe my experiences of paramattha dhammas. It isn't possible. I am no more able to catch a dhamma - "Oh look, there's dosa! And, over there, isn't that domanassa? Wonderful, I must make a note in my field book!" - than I was before I ever heard of paramattha dhammas. This whole formal meditation business scares me, Larry. It reminds me of religious people who swear they have met Jesus or some other such nonsense. Let's not pretend to have known paramattha dhammas when we haven't. Let's not associate the Buddha's precious teaching with that kind of carryon, please. :-) ------------ L: > As an experiment, if I asked, "What sort of dhammas arise when you get angry?", could you answer? For example, does a hardness arise in your body accompanied by unpleasant feeling? I'm not interested in what a hypothetical monk experiences. I want to know what _you_ experience. Can you tell me what you experience? ------------- Firstly, let me remind you that hardness is one of the tactile rupas. It has nothing to do with dosa. You must be talking about the "knot in the stomach" that people generally associate with anger. That is a conventional description of anger, I can't see how it has anything to do with Abhidhamma. (Unless you are thinking that citta-with-dosa always has the rupa, hardness, as its arammana. But you aren't, are you?) Secondly, I know what you and I (and people in general) mean by "unpleasant mental feeling" and I agree it helps us to understand the descriptions of domanassa (its manifestation etc) that we find in the texts. But, apart from that, it has nothing to do with satipatthana, has it? If I drop a brick on my foot that won't make me somehow more capable of satipatthana than I am now. Ken H PS: I haven't commented on your "should" theory yet. I have to go out now, but I will get back to it. #82581 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:56 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (3) .. True Test of Authenticity .. dhammanusara Dear Sarah, - >Sarah: I thought you made some very useful comments on the test of authenticity. >As you say, it will only be the direct knowing that will erase doubts about the Buddha-vacana. This is exactly the same point which is stressed throughout Ch 19 of Vism. T: Talking about Chapter XIX of Vism, you reminded me of the following quote from the Psm. 'In the previous kamma process becoming there is delusion, which is ignorance; there is accumulation, which is formations; there is attachment, which is craving; there is embracing, which is clinging; there is volition, which is becoming; thus these five things in the previous kamma process becoming are conditions for rebirth-linking here [in the present becoming]. So as long as ignorance has not ceased, samsara continues, Regards, Tep === #82582 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Not Self and Ego Questions. lbidd2 Hi Steven, I can try to answer your questions: Steven: "Can anyone explain this to me, how are we not self or how have we no self, I cant quite grasp the term of there not being a self? have I phrased this sentence right and does it make sense?" Larry: It is not so much that "we" are not self as it is that this foot, this hand, this hair, this feeling, this perception, this emotion, this consciousness is not me. If you look carefully you can see that this world is only various elements of materiality and mentality and none of it is "me". Steven: "And did buddha still have an Ego after Nibbana? And is there good ego and bad ego if there is ego at all? I am having Trouble understanding these phenomena if you call them that." Larry: I'm not sure what "ego" is to Dr. Freud, but in the ordinary sense we might say it is the belief in a self. It might be hard to see, but this belief is also not me. The phenomena that most seem like me seem so because of clinging to them. A belief is an extra tight bundle of clinging. The Buddha of course saw all this very clearly and thoroughly and because of that, belief dropped away completely and he was able to experience nibbana, ultimate peace. As for good ego and bad ego, I think ego takes credit for good and bad deeds and emotions by clinging to them as "mine". We can see in realty that no one exercises control over these acts of body and mind. They just arise dependent on the various elements of mentality and materiality. Dependent on the various conditions of seed, soil, water, and sun a plant grows. The plant doesn't make itself grow. It is the same for everything else. Larry #82583 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro lbidd2 Hi Ken, This won't do at all:-0 Ken: "Let's not pretend to have known paramattha dhammas when we haven't. Let's not associate the Buddha's precious teaching with that kind of carryon, please. :-)" Larry: All I asked was that you describe your experience when you are angry. I am particularly interested in the physical aspect. Can you do that? Larry #82584 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:20 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,238 nichiconn Path of Purity, pp.682-3 Or because: - A man in pain doth ease desire; The man of ease desires yet more. It's neutralness that, being calm, Is said to be the same as ease. Therefore the threefold feeling is The cause of craving. And it's said By that great sage, that craving is Conditioned by the feelings three. It without bias never is, Although it is by feeling caused, Therefore it does not come to him, Who as "brahman" has lived the life. This is the detailed discourse as to the clause: "Conditioned by feeling, craving comes to pass." #82585 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] a relevent question TGrand458@... Hi bhikkhu / reverend aggacitto I believe I was the first person to respond to the question you reference below and I clearly told you #1 -- There was no such Sutta. #2 That the Buddha did clearly claim to teach no-self. Your question was relevant, but I'm afraid you are going about it backwards. One can not understand nature by the mere declaration of something being self or nonself. The understanding as to whether there is self or nonself comes about AFTER nature is understood. Phenomena/nature is a conditionality stream of continuous cause and effect. Whatever arises, does so based on merging/conascent conditions that form the formations that we can distinguish. Such conditions as -- the 18 elements, the 5 aggregates, the 6 elements -- (4 Great Elements, space, consciousness,) including various dispositions of consciousness. But all of these things, and all that arises, is born out of "something other that itself." Therefore, there is nothing that has "own-ness" of "self-ness" about it. Conditionality is a dynamic and continuous process of interacting and altering structures/formations. The way our minds generally work is to isolate things as having "their own characteristics. " But THIS IS the delusion. Insight sees that this "self-view" is false. By understanding conditionality principles, one can look upon all conditions objectively and not take them personally. With such an objective view, one can observe phenomena in a detached manner and further deepen "conditionality insight" (Insight). Seeing that all conditions, internally and externally, are utterly falling apart and disintegrating; the mind can, in a detached manner, turn away from conditions and let go of the delusions that cause suffering. But what remains is insight, comprehension, knowing; that conditions are impermanent, afflicting (through destruction/impermanence), and nonself. The nature of conditions is -- nonself. TG #82586 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - T: I do not understand why/how the aggregation produces no action. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard It does. But what does that producing of action by a person (or any aggregation) actually come down to? It comes down to certain of the component phenomena acting (or, better said, occurring) in concert. It is like an orchestra, Tep. When playing a movement for strings, it is the strings playing in concert (i.e., together). It is always individual instruments playing, but they play together cooperatively and in harmony, and we call it the "the string section playing" or even "the orchestra playing." ------------------------------------------------------- Actual persons who do not act? But kamma means action; walking, talking, etc. are actions. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Kamma is intention, and, derivatively, intentional action. But what of it? Think about what happens when a orchestra is playing. I think the analogy is a good one. --------------------------------------------------- Because of their kamma resultants becoming and rebirth follow. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, but so what? ------------------------------------------------ The real problem(dukkha) is caused by clinging (upadana) to the khandhas; it is not because a person is an actor/agent. Howard: There is a real danger in letting atta-view slip in "through the back door" when speaking of persons and of aggregations in general. One tends to reify them and, in one's imagination, to turn them into singular agents. We are all predisposed to one extreme or the other: nihilism & annihilationism, or substantialism & eternalism/continualism. T: Upadanakkhandha is suffering. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The clung-to aggregates are not suffering. Suffering is mental pain - the second dart. The clung-to aggregates are unsatisfactory, and they *cause* suffering. -------------------------------------------------- Khandhas are the "burden" and a person is the carrier of such burden [See SN 22.22]. --------------------------------------------- Howard: The person carries the burden as any aggregation bears its components, being the collection of those components. Of course, the components of a person are a burden only when clung to. When no longer clung to, the burden has been set down, and the person is now, in Buddhist terminology, no longer "a being." What was a clinging aggregation is now an aggregation in realization of freedom. ----------------------------------------------- The twenty self views (attanuditthi) arise because of the clinging to the five aggregates; you abandon "atta view" by seeing drawbacks of the clinging to the khandhas (since they are impermanent and lead to suffering). Howard: The Dhamma is a razor's edge, and in attempting to tread that thin and sharp middle-way edge, it is very easy to misstep, receive a deep cut, and, wounded, fall off to one side or the other. Of the two extremes, the substantialist/eternalist side, the extreme of atta-view, is, IMO, the more dangerous, and I think the Buddha's teaching, accordingly, puts most emphasis on deconstruction. Beware of alleged persons who are actors/agents - they don't literally exist! T: The middle-way approach(avoiding the two extremes) is to practice appropriate attention of the FNT that abandon the wrong views. Acording to MN 2, the extreme views are caused by inappropriate attention as follows: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? ... ...' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... .. or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... ... : This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. [end quote] Tep ============================= With metta, Howard #82587 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:23 pm Subject: Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 8 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 6. Kamma and kamma-result .... S: Continuing the section under Kamma ***** [Full Understanding of the Known] 21. When he has discerned the conditions of mentality-materiality in this way by means of the round of kamma and the round of kamma-result, and has abandoned uncertainty about the three periods of time, than all past, future and present states are understood by him in accordance with death and rebirth-linking. This is his Full Understanding of the Known (see Ch.XX,3). .... S: (More to come in the next chapter.) 'Full understanding of the Known' is ~naata pari~n~naa. Pari~n~naa means 'full understanding'. ~Naata means 'what has been known'. There are 3 kinds of pari~n~naa, full understanding, in the course of the development of insights, i.e satipatthana which leads to the realisation of the 4 Noble Truths. ~Naata pari~n~naa (full understanding of the known) 'applies' the knowledge realised at the first three tender stages of insight. [There is a helpful summary of the 3 pari~n~naas in 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' by A.Sujin, ch 32, 'The Three Kinds of Full Understanding'] In the Sammohavinodanii, (PTS translation by ~Naa.namoli, 'Classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness', it says: "1173. After inquiring: 'This mentality-materiality is not produced without causes, without condition; it is produced with causes, with conditions. But what is its cause, what is its condition?' he defines its condition thus: 'With ignorance as condition, craving as condition, kamma as condition, nutriment as condition (Ps i 55), and he removes doubt about the three periods [of time thus]: 'In the past also they are conditions and states conditionally arisen; and in the future, and now also, they are conditions and states conditionally arisen. Beyond that there is no being or person. It is only a mere heap of formations. But this insight which discerns the formations is called "full understanding of the known" (~naatapari~n~naa)." S: There are only namas and rupas, arising by conditions. There is no being or person involved. Further, in the Tiika to the Muulapariyaaya Sutta(MN 1), it says: "Therein, the "full understanding of the known" is the wisdom of full understanding by which one fully understands, delimits (parricchindati), the plane of insight (vipassanaabhuumi). For this understands the dhammas of the three planes, delimiting them as internal and external and defining their characteristics, functions, etc.,; thereby it makes it known, understood, evident, that "this is the plane of insight." S: It sounds like theory here, but it's actually the developed 'practice' of satipatthana, the direct understanding and realisation of the characteristics of realities appearing now. .... 22. He understands thus 'Aggregates produced in the past with kamma as condition ceased there too. But other aggregates are produced in this becoming with past kamma as their condition, although there is no single thing that has come over from the past becoming to this becoming. And aggregates produced in this becoming with kamma as their condition will cease. And in the future becoming other aggregates will be produced, although no single thing will go over from this becoming to the future becoming. .... S: So all the time, khandhas are arising and falling away, conditioned by kamma and other conditions. What we take for 'body' are different rupas produced by kamma, arising and falling away instantly. Past kamma keeps producing rupas, so it seems that there is a lasting body, but it's an illusion. Understanding the nature of such dhammas now, there is no more doubt about similar dhammas in the past or future. Gradually, the meaning of 'khandhas' becomes clearer as it's known that each rupa is distinct and yet they are all rupa khandha, sharing certain characteristics. The same applies to the other khandhas. Nothing lasts for more than an instant. There is a rebirth of namas and rupas continuously. Metta, Sarah ======== #82588 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Discourteous Speech - to be tolerated? sarahprocter... Dear Sumane, (& DC) Thank you so much for telling us about how the helpful reminder aided you in your daily life. It's a good, practical example. --- Sumane Rathnasuriya wrote: <..> > saved me from near inclination to current politics & continued akusala. > No. I can have patience that I always was exercising & realize that I am > also saving valuable time from unwanted thoughts & perhaps unwanted > retaliatory akusala. If it amounts to Sati sampaja~n~na may it be but > now > with your reminder, I am saving such akusala for myself & for those > others > too. ... S: It's such a good example of how wise reflection on the Teachings leads to more patience and avoidance of akusala, such as you mention, very naturally during the day. Yes, it's so very easy to become involved in 'causes', 'criticism' and justifications of akusala or one kind or another. It's really a delight for us to see you posting here again after such a long absence. I remember our wonderful Dhamma discussions with you in Colombo so well. Btw, have you noticed DC posting? He is also from Colombo. .... > *Mind that continuously practices "Meththaa' has deviated with deeds of > lay > commitments that were accessed involuntarily & seemingly harmlessly!* .... S: Would you care to explain this a little more? I do hope you'll share more of your experiences too. .... > Thanx again for timely *intervention *& Meththaa! > Sumane .... S: Yes, sometimes we just happen to hear the right thing at the right time. I find this as well. This is why it's such a joy to share Dhamma reminders together. Metta, Sarah ======== #82589 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (3) sarahprocter... Dear Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > It's been a long time since we communicated and it's been years since > I last posted to this group. I'm only here for a brief visit like my > recent visits to Toronto and Montreal. I prefer to be where it's > quieter and to concentrate on a line or two at a time. The traffic > here is just too much for a country bumpkin like me. .... S: Well, it's fast for us city folks too:). I'm so glad you were able to make trips to Toronto and Montreal, remembering the difficulties in travel you used to have. ... > Yes, I've been looking over the thread and will report on errors > pertaining to myself and U Thitzana but not on the Pa.t.thaana as > that really is over my head. I'd like to report on one error I made > myself. I met with U Thitzana last Tues. and Wed. (Feb. 5 & 6) not > Thurs. Sorry for the mix up. .... S: ;-) With your eye for fine detail, you'd have made an excellent law draftsman like Jon! I'm sure the Pa.t.thaana is pretty much over all our heads, but I think Han's introduction of the summary of it can be very helpful. I hadn't made the connection before with U Thitzana who you had told me about before, so I'm interested to hear about this. .... >There is a chance > that U Thitzana may come to Toronto on his next visit to Canada, > possibly next year. So some of the Toronto members on DSG may get an > opportunity to meet him. If such a visit is to take place I will be > sure to inform DSG'ers or I could be contacted offlist for updates. .... S: I'm sure they'd be interested to hear. .... >>...If there's anything you'd care to > > share about the meeting, I know others besides myself would be very > > glad to hear (whether the personal impressions and details or the > > Dhamma content of such). > > I posted a short report on my trip to the Quebec meditation centre to > my Pali study group. The report is available offlist to anyone > interested and who requests a copy via my email address: > jimanderson_on@... . I could have posted it here but it doesn't > seem like the right thing to do. .... S: I'm sure there would be general interest, but it's entirely up to you to know what is 'right'. (I'll check your group otherwise for it through my old email address.) .... > > > Metta and very best wishes for the New Year, Jim. > > Same to you. The Vietnamese were also celebrating the New Year on > Feb. 7. .... S: It's really an enjoyable time in Hong Kong - lots of friendliness, decorations, red packets, fireworks, closed shops and freeezing swims for us:-). .... > I haven't been chopping wood lately but have been shovelling lots of > snow. I would like to get back to my Kaccaayana studies and so won't > be staying here too long. Otherwise, it'll take years to break away. > But I don't mind dropping by once in a blue moon for ahort visit. ... S: I'm glad we don't have to shovel snow here.....Yes, don't let us distract you. Any blue moon visits will be a delight of course. Metta, Sarah ======== #82590 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Happy Chinese New Year! sarahprocter... Hi Elaine, Thanks for spending a little of your very limited internet time to send us Chinese New Year wishes! Kung Hei Fat Choi to you and all! Do hope you're enjoying your home visit (and break from shovelling snow in T.O.!!). I'll look forward to more of your input on threads when you return. Metta, Sarah #82591 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment TGrand458@... Hi Sukin In a message dated 2/11/2008 4:09:55 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, sukinder@... writes: And while I believe that this process continues up until before Arahat, the suttamaya panna and cintamaya panna arising along the way, is *informed by* the experiences of satipatthana, vipassana and magga, what you seem to be saying OTOH, is that there needs to be certain kind of `conceptualizing' not necessarily informed by any direct experience, but in fact somehow "informs" the direct experience. Have I misread you? .......................................... NEW TG: They both inform each other. .............................................. ==================== > And I think that the situation is similar when it comes to the cemetery > contemplations you refer to in your post to Nina and Sarah. > One is not being asked to "compare and imagine". > ............ .... .... .... .... .... > NEW TG: Again, what are you talking about? Have you read the Cemetery > Contemplations? It is exactly to compare that the Buddha is asking us to do. > The Buddha asks us to compare our body to the corpse and to realize that our > body too will become like that. If that aint conceptualization/conceptualizati > work, I don't know what is. Immediately after sending that post, I realized that I should have first read that part of the Text. I did it later however and marked one part to comment on which later Jon picked out to do so too. Since his comment is better than what I had in mind, I won't bother with that now. But following from my comments above, here you are encouraging `conceptualizing'e While I would just say that conceptualizing, imagination and comparisons occurs naturally to all, the need hence would be to know this as being so, namely `thinking' as thinking rather than to be taking the object of one's thinking so seriously. From what you suggest there seems to imply that the Buddha asked us change from `thinking one way' to `thinking another way'. I don't think that this is what the Buddha intended. ............................................................ NEW TG: I would say that the Buddha would suggest that we stop thinking about things incorrectly, and start thinking about them correctly. Other than that, I'm not sure what you mean. ..................................................................... I understand that the description given in the Sutta sounds like what one might consider being a form of practice, and I'm sure it is. But it is probably a "samatha practice" situation, which certain Bhikkhus might find themselves in and the Buddha brought it up just as he did in the rest of the Sutta, as reminder about developing satipatthana in all situations. ................................................ NEW TG: If that was the intent, simple enough for the Buddha to point it out. .................................................. ================= > The whole of the Satipatthana Sutta is about > "satipatthana" "satipatthana"Satipatthana Sutta > panna which knows namas and rupas. > ............ .... .... .... .... .... > NEW TG: No, it isn't ALL about that. As I have clearly demonstrated. I'll rephrase: The satipatthana Sutta is about the development of satipatthana in any situation. The situations described in the Sutta are those which monks during the Buddha's time and who were his audience then, found themselves in. ;-) ....................................................... NEW TG: Although we usually think of mindfulness as "direct awareness of present experience/conditions/states"; it perhaps should also extend to being mindful of "things said long ago" as well as potentialities that fall in line with conditionality principles. Hence, reflecting on death and "one's future death" was highly recommended by the Buddha. ..................................................... ================== > The conventional situations described > are *reminders* about what one might in fact be mindful of when in those > situations instead of going as before, taking everything for "self". > This is one reason why it won't ever work for the so-called meditators, > they have in fact gone ahead and taken the "practice" itself for "self". > ............ .... .... .... .... .... .. > NEW TG: I can't follow this on any level. I'll try from another angle. Without the Buddha's teachings much of our experiences (those involving some sense of `self'), are those of the three papancas, namely tanha, mana and ditthi. This includes those practices that we take in the name `finding the truth' and `being good'. With the Dhamma we come to appreciate what it means to develop Right View which also leads to better understand all three papancas. Without right View one cannot know `wrong view' and tanha and mana would continue to be taken for `I'. The development of understanding includes coming to see how our experiences are taken for `self' in these three ways otherwise we continue instead to "feed" them, including unknowingly when we are involved in `doing good'. ` Formal meditation' as far as I can see, does not involve any Right View, and since it is neither Dana, Sila nor any kind of Samatha bhavana, then it must invariably involve just this feeding of the three papancas, I, me and mine. ....................................................... NEW TG: You were doing so well up to the unnecessary and baffling disparagement of formal meditation. ........................................................... ================== > I'm still waiting for the quote as expressed in a previous post... I don't remember what that was about. In any case, consider me as being incapable of providing Sutta quotes and instead, please try something else. ;-) ================== > Please note the way the Buddha asks us to "see" the aggregates..aggregates > once does he say we need to see them as realities. Please show me a Sutta > quote where the Buddha says we need to see the aggregates or elements are > "realities with their own characteristics. "realities with their ow characteristics. > Note: please use an actual Sutta quote and not an interpretation by someone > else. Thanks Again no suttas from me. :-( However I think we may need to first make clear one thing, not being sure if we understand each other right. Using `reality' to distinguish from concept is one thing. Insight comes to know nama and rupa as reality / dhamma is one thing. Sure these two in the beginning, are more or less only `ideas' / theory in our minds. Neither of these positions however implies an `attempt' to view experiences *as realities*. Firstly there is no "trying" to see, secondly, one is not being encouraged to project the concept of `reality' on to any experience. In other words, after hearing about it, `visible object' is "real" by virtue of it being understood as an object of one kind, different from say, `chair'. It is the growing understanding of visible object which then defines also how `reality / dhamma' is gradually understood. It is not a case of `reality' being a category which one has chosen to put visible object in and then trying to view the latter a particular way. TG, I am having difficulty expressing myself here. But if you got the main idea, would this be how you understand my position to be? ........................................................... NEW TG: Maybe I understand. But my critique is that the way I see it, -- the "realities approach" mistakes the "tools" of the Buddha's teaching for the "goals" of the Buddha's teaching. At the least, it over-blows the significance of "the tools." .......................................................... ===================== From the other post: > The reason the Buddha talked in terms of > elements and aggregates is to show what in fact constitutes our > experience from moment to moment. It was not meant to explain the > world > ............ .... .... .... .... .. > NEW TG: It was both. As both are integrated and helpful in overcoming > affliction. When the Buddha talks about an adze handle wearing away with usage, > or a sail boat rotting due to the elements, is this to understand our moment > by moment experiences? I don't think so. He's explaining nature and using > "outside" conceptualizations to make his points on impermanence. As Nina pointed out, the adze handle simile was not meant to demonstrate impermanence. ............................................................... NEW TG: It most certainly was. Not only does it demonstrate impermanence, it demonstrates causal factors that cause impermanence, namely the rubbing together of conditions! Although the analogy has a greater purpose to point out slow steady change; within the analogy, the fore mentioned remains a valid deduction. ................................................................... Regarding other conventional expressions, for example the "rotting boat" etc, these as you know are nothing new, namely that other religions and philosophies would also arrive at similar examples to demonstrate impermanence. Are you then saying that such conventional examples somehow add to one's understanding of anicca, as in momentary rise and fall? .......................................................... NEW TG: Causality and impermanence are not unique to Buddhism. What is unique to Buddhism is that deep disciplined awareness of such factors is able to free the mind from generating affliction. While most folks might easily understand the boats wearing away, and within reason, the causal factors for it...what they don't penetrate is deep immediate awareness that this is happening to all conditions at all times...and the consequences that such a conditional world entails...i.e., affliction. ............................................................. I don't see how a concept of sail-boat and this too added the idea of it being composed of elements which change, could in itself boost one's understanding of momentary anicca! As Nina suggested, while following the idea of sail-boat rotting, so many realities arise and fall away, the `thing to do' would be to understand the impermanence of any reality arisen at that moment, but you don't agree with this..? ..................................................................... NEW TG: Mindfulness of present experiences and changes, is a means to an end; it is not the end. It merely heightens insight into conditionality, impermanence, affliction, nonself. Mindfulness is a tool. It is used to cultivate insight into these latter factors. With sufficient insight, the mind rejects the so called "realities" and turns away from such. If one can look at a dead corpse, internalize the significance, and turn away from conditions as well, good enough! ............................................................... Instead you are likely to question why the Buddha chose to give these conventional examples rather than referring straight to Khandhas, Ayatanas etc. My answer is his direct audiences were not prone to take those conventional examples the way you are doing. ;-) .................................................... NEW TG: They were just analogies but at the same time, they demonstrate an "internal truth" within that analogy. I don't consider anything about the Buddha's teaching as conventional. I consider it all exceptional. Yet I understand the difference between the common parlance of you, me, I, etc.; and nonself. Take care Sukin. TG OUT ............................................................ #82592 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:18 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. sarahprocter... Hi Scott, (Nina & all), Back to an old thread.....and Scott's message #81391 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Scott: I'm still into the Ariyapariyesanaa Sutta, and was reading how, > prior to embarking on his course of harsh asceticism, the Buddha > arrived at Senaanigama near Uruvelaa and said: > > "'This will serve for the striving of a clansmen intent on striving.' > And I sat there thinking: 'This will serve for striving.'" > > [Ala.m vatida.m kulaputtassa padhaanatthikassa padhaanaayaa"ti.So kho > aha.m bhikkhave tattheva nisiidi.m " alamida.m padhaanaayaa"ti.] > > Scott: The Buddha's striving in this case lead to a dead end. How > does 'padhaana' relate to the above? .... S: We all had lots of discussion, but when posting an extract yesterday from MN36, Mahaasaccaka Sutta, I came across a curious summary from the commentary which you may like to consider. S: >We read that those who live "bodily and mentally withdrawn from sensual pleasures('kaayena ceva cittena ca kaamehi...'), and whose sensual desire, affection, infatuation, thirst, and fever for sensual pleasures has been fully abandoned and suppressed internally, even if those good recluses and brahmins feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to exertion, they are capable of knowledge and vision and supreme enlightenment; and even if those good recluses and brahmins so not feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to exertion, they are capable of knowledge and vision and supreme enlightenment." note 387, Nanamoli/Bodhi " In this connection MA raises the question: Why did the Bodhisatta undertake the practice of austerities if he could have attained Buddhahood without doing so? It answers: He did so, first, in order to show his own exertion to the world, because the quality of invincible energy gave him joy; and second, out of compassion for later generations, by inspiring them to strive with the same determination that he applied to the attainment of enlightenment." S: Curious.... Metta, Sarah ========= #82593 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:26 am Subject: Patthaana (6) hantun1 Dear All, Before we take up the 24 conditions, one by one, there are a few things which we should know. The twenty-four conditions listed in my last post form the subject matter of the Patthaana, which presents a detailed exposition of the various ways in which they inter-relate the mental and material phenomena enumerated in the Dhammasanganii, the first book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. In order to properly comprehend the Abhidhamma teaching on conditional relations, it is essential to understand the three factors involved in any particular relation: (1) the conditioning states (paccaya dhammaa), the phenomena that function as conditions for other phenomena either by producing them, by supporting them, or by maintaining them; (2) the conditionally arisen states (paccayayuppanna dhammaa), the states conditioned by the conditioning states, the phenomena that arise and persist in being through the assistance provided by the conditioning states; and (3) the conditioning force of the condition (paccaya satti), the particular way in which the conditioning states function as conditions for the conditioned states. The 24 conditions are in fact the conditioning force of the conditions (paccaya satti). Metta, Han #82594 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:39 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 41 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 514. "Idamajaramidamamara.m, idamajaraamara.m padamasoka.m; asapattamasambaadha.m, akhalitamabhaya.m nirupataapa.m. 512. "This is unageing, this is undying. This is the unageing, undying state [that is] without grieving, without enmity, unobstructed, without stumbling, without fear, without burning. Tattha idamajaranti idameveka.m attani jaraabhaavato adhigatassa ca jaraabhaavahetuto ajara.m. Idamamaranti etthaapi eseva nayo. Idamajaraamaranti tadubhayamekajjha.m katvaa thomanaavasena vadati. Padanti va.t.tadukkhato muccitukaamehi pabbajitabbato pa.tipajjitabbato pada.m. Sokahetuuna.m abhaavato sokaabhaavato ca asoka.m. 512. There, this is unageing (ajara.m) means: this one thing is unageing because of the absence of old age (jaraabhaavato) itself and because of its being the cause of the absence of ald age (jaraabhaava-hetuto). In this context, this is undying has the same inference. And in this is the unageing, undying state (ajaraamara.m), she speaks of both of them, putting them together [in one word] by way of praise. State means: a state because of going forth, because of being entered upon by those wishing for release from the pain of continued existence. It is without enmity (asapatta.m) through the absence of grief (sokaabhaavato) and the absence of the cause of grief (soka-hetuuna.m abhaavatato). Sapattakaradhammaabhaavato asapatta.m. Kilesasambaadhaabhaavato asambaadha.m. Khalitasa"nkhaataana.m duccaritaana.m abhaavena akhalita.m. Attaanuvaadaadibhayaana.m va.t.tabhayassa ca sabbaso abhaavaa abhaya.m. Dukkhuupataapassa kilesassaapi abhaavena nirupataapa.m. Sabbameta.m amatamahaanibbaanameva sandhaaya vadati. Ta~nhi saa anussavaadisiddhena aakaarena attano upa.t.thahantii tesa.m paccakkhato dassentii viya "idan"ti avoca. It is without enmity (asapatta.m) through the absence of things that cause enmity (sapatta-kara-dhammaabhaavato). It is unobstruced (asambhaa-dha.m) through the absence of the obstructions of the defilemtns (kilesasambaachaabhaavato). It is without stumbling (akhalita.m) because of the absence of wrong actions that are called stumbling (khalita-sa"nkhaataana.m). It is without fear (abhaya.m) through thetotal absence of fear of remorse (attaanuvaadaadi-bhayaana.m) and fear of continued existence (va.t.ta-bhayassa). It is without burning (nirupataapa.m) because of the absence of defilement which is the burning caused by pain (dukkhuupataapasssa). She says all this with reference to the great undying quenching. For she said this as if showing it now before their very eyes, making it appear herself according to the manner in which she had become accomplished in the tradition. 515. "Adhigatamida.m bahuuhi, amata.m ajjaapi ca labhaniiyamida.m; yo yoniso payu~njati, na ca sakkaa agha.tamaanena. 513. "This undying has been attained by many, and this is to be obtained even today [by one] who rightly applies himself. But it cannot [be attained] by one who does not srive." Avigatamida.m bahuuhi amatanti ida.m amata.m nibbaana.m bahuuhi ananta-aparimaa.nehi buddhaadiihi ariyehi adhigata.m ~naata.m attano paccakkha.m kata.m. Na kevala.m tehi adhigatameva sandhaaya vadati, atha kho ajjaapi ca labhaniiya.m idaanipi adhigamaniiya.m adhigantu.m sakkaa. Kena labhaniiyanti aaha "yo yoniso payu~njatii"ti, yo puggalo yoniso upaayena satthaaraa dinna-ovaade .thatvaa yu~njati sammaapayoga~nca karoti, tena labhaniiyanti yojanaa. Na ca sakkaa agha.tamaanenaati yo pana yoniso na payu~njati, tena agha.tamaanena na ca sakkaa, kadaacipi laddhu.m na sakkaayevaati attho. 513. This undying has been attained by many means: this undying, quenching, has been attained, has been realized, has been established before their own eyes, by many, and endless number of, noble ones, Buddhas, etc. With reference to that, she says, "Not only has it been attained by them, but slao this is to be obtained (adhigata.m) even today, even now, it is to be attained (adhigamaniiya.m), it is possible to attain it (adhigantu.m sakkaa)". By whom is it to be obtained? [By one] who rightly applies himself (payu~njati) means: [by one] who, by an individual who, rightly, through [proper] means, standing firm in the instruction given by the Teacher, exerts himself (yu~njati) and makes right endeavour (sammaa-payoga.m). That is the connection. But (ca) it cannot [be attained] by one who does not strive menas: but (pana) by one who does not apply himself, therefore but by one who does not strive, it cannot be attained at any time. That is the meaning. .. to be continued, connie #82595 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:07 am Subject: Perfections Corner (89) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) We read further on: “The son of a prominent family (the King who had gone forth as a monk) [1] thought, ‘Our teacher left the homelife and went forth alone, he went on his way alone. I feel shame and awe with regard to the Teacher. I heard that after our Teacher had gone forth he did not go on a vehicle and he did not use any footwear, not even one layer, nor did he use a paper sunshade.’ That son of a prominent family thought, ‘I am travelling far and therefore I should not go alone. I shall follow a group of merchants.’ When the son of a prominent family who was delicate by nature walked on very hot ground, the soles of both of his feet were with pus and wounds, and therefore, he experienced painful feeling. When the merchants had set up a camp, and sat down to rest, the son of a prominent family went away to sit at the root of a tree. There was nobody there to take care of his legs or massage his back. That son of a prominent family attained the fourth jhåna with Mindfulness of Breathing and he could thus suppress the hard-ship of his journey, his tiredness and agitation. He spent his time with the joy of jhåna. The next day at dawn he took care of his bodily needs and followed again the group of merchants. When it was time for breakfast, the merchants took the bowl of the son of a prominent family and placed in it hard food and soft food as an offering. This food consisted of raw husked rice that was not delicious, curry that was like a heap of gravel, soup with very salty ingredients. The son of a prominent family reflected on his resting place, and the hard and soft food were like divine nectar to him while he swallowed everything with a great deal of water. He travelled one-hundred and ninetytwo leagues [2] in all, and although he passed close to the gates of the Jeta Grove, he did not enquire where the Teacher was staying. Why did he not enquire? The answer is that he revered the Teacher, and also because of the royal official letter sent by the King which seemed to convey that the Teacher had appeared in Råjagaha, since it stated, ‘The Tathågata has appeared in this world.’ Therefore he understood that the Buddha was dwelling in the city of Råjagaha. Although he went near the gate of the Jeta Grove, he travelled on fortyfive leagues more. At sundown the son of a prominent family reached Råjagaha and there he asked where the Teacher was staying. When a villager learnt that he came from the northern country (Uttara Pradesh) he informed him as follows, ‘You have passed the city of Såvatthí and travelled on fortyfive leagues to Råjagaha, but the Teacher is dwelling in Såvatthí.’ The son of a prominent family, Pukkusåti, thought, ‘Now it is not the right time to return to the city of Såvatthí, and today I shall first take lodging here. Tomorrow I shall go to the Teacher’s dwelling place.’ He asked the villager where recluses who arrived at an imappropriate time could find a lodging. The villager answered that he could dwell in this potter’s workshop. Then the son of a prominent family asked the potter whether he could dwell there. He entered and sat down, in order to make use of the lodging in the workshop of that potter. Note [1] “Son of a noble family” is generally used to refer to the monk who is actually the Buddha’s son. Note [2] One yojana is 7.3 kilometre. (The quote from the commentary for this particular passage was very lengthy. So I have to cut it in half. The rest of the quote will be in next post. I am sorry for the inconvenience.) To be continued. Metta, Han #82596 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Reality in Its Own Sense.. dhammanusara Hi, 'Howard' (Jon, James, Scott)- 'Howard', The Aggregation, has done a good job in rebutting. My thanks go to the consciousnesses that arose to do the good discussion (another aggregate/sankhara) and then passed away. >Howard: (1) A "person" such as you describe becomes an actor/agent. As conventional speech it is fine, but the reality is that a person is just an aggregation, and the speaking, talking, and walking each consists of a sub-aggregation of the phenomena of which the person is composed, acting in concert. In fact, even those component phenomena are not actors. They are not "things that act," but are the actions/events/operations themselves. (2) I agree with you, Tep, that there are actual persons. But they are only an aggregations, and your formulation bothers me as to emphasis and implication. > T: I do not understand why/how the aggregation produces no action. > (3) But what does that producing of action by a person (or any aggregation) actually come down to? It comes down to certain of the component phenomena acting (or, better said, occurring) in concert. It is like an orchestra, Tep. When playing a movement for strings, it is the strings playing in concert (i.e., together). It is always individual instruments playing, but they play together cooperatively and in harmony, and we call it the "the string section playing" or even "the orchestra playing." .............. T: Looking at the level of "individual instruments playing" is not seeing the whole picture : the upper level involves "persons" who play the instruments (right now) and the lower level involves the components that make up the instruments. The level above the "instrument players" involves becomings(bhava) that are conditioned by avijja & tanha (not by a God, or a soul) and, mind you, there are no persons at the dhamma level. The level of aggregation below the persons (the players and the audience who paid for the tickets) involves molecules, atoms, and empty spaces between the atoms (again, no persons are seen). Each of these levels is a reality in its "own sense". A perspective/view/model/abstraction/formulation is useful only when it does lead to vijja, not upadana(clinging to aggregation and the view itself), not a debate/argument. So please don't let "my formulation" bother you. ;-) Tep, a 'Burden Carrier' ------------------------ #82597 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment buddhatrue Hi TG and Sukin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: \]]> > I understand that the description given in the Sutta sounds like what > one might consider being a form of practice, and I'm sure it is. But > it is probably a "samatha practice" situation, which certain Bhikkhus > might find themselves in and the Buddha brought it up just as he did > in the rest of the Sutta, as reminder about developing satipatthana in > all situations. > > ................................................ > > NEW TG: If that was the intent, simple enough for the Buddha to point it > out. The corpse contemplations are a specific meditation in order to overcome lust. If a monk was overcome with lust for the body, he would go to a charnal ground and contemplate the various corpses. The only way to do this meditation is to go to the charnal grounds where one would find corpses. After all, human corpses aren't just left lying around on the street for everyone to see. And there would be no reason for a monk to go to a charnal ground except for this meditation. Monks don't normally "hang out" at cemetaries as they are unpleasant places and quite scary at night (due to ghosts). Metta, James #82598 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 12-feb-2008, om 10:18 heeft sarahprocterabbott het volgende geschreven: > In this connection MA raises the question: Why did the Bodhisatta > undertake the practice of austerities if he could have attained > Buddhahood without doing so? It answers: He did so, first, in order to > show his own exertion to the world, because the quality of invincible > energy gave him joy; and second, out of compassion for later > generations, by inspiring them to strive with the same determination > that he applied to the attainment of enlightenment." > > S: Curious.... -------- N: This can be a reminder that the Path leading to enlightenment is long and not easy. He did not strive with any idea of self. There were conditions for right effort. In the "Perfections" there are good passages about energy: < We read in the “Exposition of Jatukaùùin’s Questions” (Mahaa- Niddesa, Khuddaka Nikåya) that Jatukaùùin had heard that the Buddha was courageous and that he therefore was called a hero, víra. ... We read: “He had perseverance and was therefore called a hero. He was valiant and was therefore called a hero. He caused others to persevere and was therefore called a hero. He had great capacities and was therefore called a hero. He was brave and always progressing, he was not a coward, not frightened, not fearful, he did not flee, he had eliminated fear and cowardice, he was without any terror, and thus, the Exalted One was courageous. The Exalted One was without the akusala dhammas of this world, he was beyond the suffering of hell, he was endowed with energy. The Buddha had viriya, the four right efforts, he was courageous and steadfast of mind, and therefore he was called courageous.” Had the Buddha not been courageous, he could not have penetrated the four noble Truths and become the Sammåsambuddha. The development of each kind of kusala and of paññå by investigating and considering the dhamma that appears now is based on viriya, energy, and perseverance. > <... We read further on about the characteristic of energy which should be developed: “Effort is called ‘årambha’ because it is striving. The term viriyårambha renders the characteristic of that kind of striving. What kind of striving? It is striving by way of escaping from idleness. Onward effort is so called by virtue of reaching a higher and higher state. Exertion is so called by virtue of rising up and keeping going. Endeavour is so called by virtue of special exertion; zeal, of being zealous; vigour, of firmness; fortitude, of bearing (supporting) citta and cetasikas, or of bearing the continuity of kusala by unbroken procedure.” These are the characteristics of viriya. It is the escaping from idleness, progressing towards a higher state, continued exertion without stopping, zeal and fortitude by progressing on. We read in the Commentary: “Another method of exposition: -This viriyårambha is ‘striving’ in expelling lust, ‘onward effort’ in cutting the bonds, ‘exertion’ in escaping from the floods, ‘endeavour’ in reaching the further shore, ‘zeal’ in being a forerunner, ‘ardour’ in exceeding the limit, ‘vigour’ in lifting the bolt (of ignorance), and ‘fortitude’ in producing steadfastness. ’Verily, let the skin, veins and bones dry up’ - thus by virtue of unfaltering effort at such time is the ‘state of a man of unfaltering effort’.” For someone who develops satipatthåna in daily life so that paññå knows more thoroughly the characteristics of realities, the right conditions are present that lead to the result, namely, the realization of the four noble Truths. For him, the result will naturally occur and this is not difficult. However, the conditions leading to such a result are difficult to develop: one should gradually consider and study with awareness the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, as they appear through the sense-doors and the mind- door. This is a very gradual process, and viriya, energy, is necessary to be aware again and again, to be aware very often, since this is the only way for paññå to be able to penetrate the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa. At this very moment realities are arising and falling away, but if we do not study with awareness and begin to understand the characteristics of nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas, it will not be possible to realize their arising and falling away. The cause which can bring such a result has to be developed time and again, life after life.> Nina. #82599 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Reality in Its Own Sense.. buddhatrue Hi Tep (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, 'Howard' (Jon, James, Scott)- > > 'Howard', The Aggregation, has done a good job in rebutting. > > My thanks go to the consciousnesses that arose to do the good > discussion (another aggregate/sankhara) and then passed away. Actually, Tep, I agree with your description more than Howard's. I have written a few posts to Howard concerning his description of people and that I don't agree. It seems to me that Howard states that people do exist, but then proceeds to explain them in a manner which suggests that they don't exist! It is very confusing to say the least. I think that this is because Howard sees the "chariot metaphor" as a ontological description of reality, rather than a specific rebuttal to Mara that it was meant to be. So, Tep, I approve of your perspective! (See, I am just handing out approval left and right lately!! ;-)). Metta, James