#83000 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:17 am Subject: Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. jonoabb Hi Tep > >Jon: Thus, at moments of seeing consciousness, the object is visible > object, but not *the visible object aspect of a person*. > > T: That idea, which I agee in principle, is a truth in the ultimate > sense that is not what puthujjhana is able to extract from the > *overall* reality. The overall reality includes both worldly sense > and ultimate sense. The view of any puthujjana who ignores the > worldly sense is at best one-sided. I am not suggesting that anyone should ignore the way things appear to be. I am simply trying to identify how, according to the teachings, things actually are, in the ultimate sense. Because it seems to me that without the correct understanding of this at an intellectual level, there cannot be the development of the path. I think we can discuss how things are in truth and reality, as taught by the Buddha, without implying that there can or should be any radical change in how things are now perceived according to one's (limited) level of understanding. > Jon: I agree that ignorance is eradicated by right understanding, as > is wrong view. With the eradication of wrong view, there is no more > taking of "person" as having any substance, because there is no more > wrong view about the nature of dhammas. > > T: Absolutely. But are we *there* yet? To insist on seeing the ariya > right view in a puthujjana is an ignorance. How can a view that is > infested with ignorance be right view? Right view (panna cetasika) is not exclusive to the ariyan. It comes in different strengths and levels. The right view of the ariyan is highly developed. The right view of the unenlightened being is much less so, very weak even. But it is only by virtue of its arising, again and again, that it can be developed. And when it does arise, the person is not at that moment "infested with ignorance". Fortunately for us, the Buddha discovered the way for the development of right view and explained at length the conditions for it arising in the person who is not yet enlightened. So while it is true that the worldling cannot have the ariyan's right view, he can still have right view of a lesser degree, that is to say view that is free of all ignorance and wrong view. And while those moments may be few and far between, their cumulative effect is nevertheless extremely valuable, I think. Jon #83001 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Jon > > > In a message dated 2/17/2008 5:16:05 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > To my reading of the texts, elements are "bedrock" already. Why else > would they be considered as "elements"? > ........................................................ > > NEW TG: To view any phenomena as "bedrock" is a problem IMO. This views > them as being too substantial. I think the Buddha would view them as > "coreless." He compares them to the core of a plantian tree....as being coreless. > Quite a difference between "bedrock" and "coreless" as to the sensibilities > they intail. The "insubstantiality" of phenomena is a different issue altogether. I was responding to your comment to the effect that elements are still some distance removed from the absolute (what I think you prefer to call phenomena). In you earlier post (#82525) you had said: "Seeing elements is just more refined and a little closer to the truth of the matter. But it is still removed from the truth of the matter." I was simply making the point that elements are "the matter" of which the truth is to be seen. There is nothing more basic, or real, than elements (hence their name). > This is exactly my objection with the focus on the terms realities, ultimate > realities with their own characteristics, etc. It leads to a far > over-substantialist view of phenomena which, IMO, will highly thwart the minds ability > to detach from them. I think you are the one focussing on terms rather than meaning ;-)) Dhammas/elements cannot be detached from unless and until they are seen for what they truly are. The development of the panna that will detach must begin with a correct intellectual understanding of what these dhamma/elements are. > Hummm I would consider mindfulness and concentration both types of > "focusing." Your objection to the term is puzzling to me. In my view, the development of mindfulness and insight is not a matter of focussing on a chosen object, but rather of the arising of those mental factors independently of any idea of direction or control on our part. > If seeing the elements as "they truly are" is seeing them as impermanent, > afflicting, and nonself; then I agree with you. Ending on a note of agreement, then ;-)) Jon #83002 From: steven crosby Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:21 am Subject: Re: Samseva: 'companionship'. crosby_s Ken H:While agreeing with you 100% on the subject of good companionship, I wonder if you have learnt the Abhidhamma teaching of absolute reality. Steven:Is absolute reality."emptiness", "voidness", "nothingness""empty" in the sense of lacking independent, persistent existence.All phenomena are (void, empty), as they are relative and so lack substantiality and independent reality; they are conditioned by and depenedent on other phenomena. I like this meaning especially"Reality embraces all, includes all and transcends all". I found this meaning here on this website. http://www.purifymind.com/AbsoluteReality.htm The way i see it is pretty much the same, we are not our selves and this earth is not ours either, so pretty much we are all just rolling along through space like the Wheel of Dhamma. Steven. #83003 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:55 am Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Howard, Nina, Here is the text for Dhs. 617: "What is the [material] form which is the sphere of [visible] shape? The [material] form which, derived from the great principles, is visible under the appearance of colour and reacting - is blue, yellow, red, white, black, crimson, bronze, green-coloured, of the hue of the mango-bud; is long, short, big, little, circular, oval, square, hexagonal, octagonal, hekkaidecagonal; low, high, shady, glowing, light, dim, dull, frosty, smoky, dusty,; like in colour to the disc of the moon, sun, stars, a mirror, a gem, a shell, a pearl, a cat's eye, gold, silver; or whatever other shape there is which, derived from the four Great Phenomena, is visible and reacting - shape which, visible and reacting, one has seen, sees, will, or may see with the eye that is invisible and reacting - this which is visible shape, this which is sphere of visible shape, the constituent element of visible shape - this is that form which is the sphere of visible shape." "Katama.m ta.m ruupa.m ruupaayatana.m? Ya.m ruupa.m catunna.m mahaabuutaana.m upaadaaya va.n.nibhaa sanidassana.m sapati.gha.m niila.m piitaka.m lohitaka.m odaata.m kaa.laka.m ma~nji.t.thaaka.m hari hariva.n.nana.m amba"nkurava.n.na.m diigha.m rassa.m a.nu.m thuulna.m va.t.ta.m parima.n.dala.m catura.msa.m cha.la.msa.m a.t.tha.msa.m so.lasa.msa.m ninna.m thala.m chaayaa aatapo aaloko andhakaaro abbhaa mahikaa dhuumo rajo candama.n.dalassa va.n.nanibhaa suuriyama.n.dalassa va.n.nanibhaa taarakaruupaana.m va.n.nanibhaa aadaasama.n.dalassa va.n.nanibhaa ma.nisa"nkhamuttaaeve.luriyassa va.n.nanibhaa jaataruuparajatassa va.n.nanibhaa, ya.m vaa pana~n~nampi atthi ruupa.m catunna.m mahaabuutaana.m upaadaaya va.n.nanibhaa sanidassana.m sapa.tigha.m cakkhunaa anadassena sapa.tighena passi vaa passati vaa passasati vaa passe vaa, ruupa.m peta.m ruupaayatana.m peta.m ruupadhaatu pesaa - idaa.m ta.m ruupa.m ruupaayatana.m." Sincerely, Scott. #83004 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:56 am Subject: The three feelings that are vipaaka. nilovg Hi Larry, We had some discussion about indifferent feeling accompanying the sense-cognitions that are vipaaka (bodily feeling excepted). You were wondering how upekkhaa can be seen as sukha, happiness, or dukkha, which can condition craving. I found something in Vis. Ch XIV, 102. N: Upekkhaa that is akusala vipaaka is inferior, it should be seen as a kind of suffering or affliction, although it is not as acute as bodily pain. The Tiika states: N: This shows the passive nature of indifferent feeling that accompanies akusala vipaaka. It is a kind of affliction. It cannot be changed, because it has been conditioned by kamma already. Whatever arises is conditioned and we cannot be master of it. There are many moments of seeing and hearing, and these are accompanied by indifferent feeling. They are kusala vipaakacittas or akusala vipaakacittas accompanied by indifferent feeling which is also vipaaka. Indifferent feeling is superior when it accompanies kusala vipaakacitta and inferior when it accompanies akusala vipaakacitta. However, they are fleeting moments that fall away very quickly. It is difficult to realize that one short moment of akusala vipaakacitta is a kind of affliction or suffering. When we think of something unpleasant we saw or heard, we actually join many different moments together into a whole of impressions. We think with ignorance and aversion of situations and persons that caused us to experience unpleasant objects. We do not realize the difference between the moment of akusala citta that is accompanied by unhappy feeling and the moment of vipaakacitta. ***** Nina. #83005 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:07 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 3 nilovg Dear friends, Once a month on Saturday Kunying Nopparath offers great hospitality at her house for many hours of Dhamma discussion and a luncheon. This time when Lodewijk and I attended this session the subject was the “Discourse on the Manifold Elements” (Middle length Sayings, no 115, P.T.S.edition). When the Buddha was staying near Såvatthí in the Jeta Grove, he said to the monks: “Whatever fears arise, monks, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever troubles arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever misfortunes arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man.” Further on we read: “Wherefore, monks, thinking, ‘Investigating, we will become wise,’ this is how you must train yourselves, monks.” When this had been said, the venerable Ånanda spoke thus to the Lord: “What is the stage at which it suffices to say, revered sir: ‘Investigating, the monk is wise?’ ” The Buddha then explained about the elements classified in different ways, about the sense-fields (åyatanas), the Dependent origination, the (causally) possible and impossible. When Ånanda asked him how the monk was skilled in the elements the Buddha first spoke about the elements as eighteenfold. We read: “There are these eighteen elements, Ånanda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness; the element of ear, the element of sound, the element of auditory consciousness; the element of nose, the element of smell, the element of olfactory consciousness; the element of tongue, the element of taste, the element of gustatory consciousness; the element of body, the element of touch, the element of bodily consciousness; the element of mind, the element of mental states, the element of mental consciousness. When, Ånanda, he knows and sees these eighteen elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, ‘The monk is skilled in the elements.’ ” All that is real is included in these eighteen elements. In dependence on the sense objects and sense bases arise the sense- cognitions. We then read about the element of mind (mano dhåtu), which includes the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness (the first citta in a sense-door process), two types of receiving-consciousness, one kusala vipåkacitta and one akusala vipåkacitta, which arise in a process after the sense-cognition of seeing. etc. As to the element of “mental states” (dhamma dhåtu), these are the dhammas that are experienced through the mind-door: all rúpas other than the sense objects, cittas, cetasikas and nibbåna. As to the element of mental consciousness (manoviññåna dhåtu), this includes all cittas, except the five sense-cognitions and the three kinds of cittas classified as mind-element. It includes cittas experiencing an object through six doors as well as door-freed cittas, cittas not arising in processes, namely, rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-cittas 1 and dying-consciousness. All these elements are realities of our daily life. They arise all the time but we do not realize that they are elements, devoid of self. ******** Nina. #83006 From: "connie" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:03 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 49 16. Mahaanipaato Conclusion Yathaa abhidhamme manodhaatuniddese (dha. sa. 566-567) labbhamaanampi jhaana"nga.m pa~ncavi~n~naa.nasotapatitataaya na uddha.ta.m katthaci desanaaya asambhavato. Yathaa tattheva vatthuniddese hadayavatthu, katthaci alabbhamaanassaapi gaha.navasena. Tathaa .thitakappiniddese. Yathaaha- "Katamo ca puggalo .thitakappii? Aya~nca puggalo sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipanno assa, kappassa ca u.d.dayhanavelaa assa, neva taava kappo u.d.dayheyya, yaavaaya.m puggalo na sotaapattiphala.m sacchikarotii"ti (pu. pa. 17). For example, the description of the mental element in the Abhidhamma* [says,] "The absorption factor, although obtainable, has fallen into the stream of the fivefold consciousness; therefore, it has not been referred to." On [other] occasions [something] does not come up in a discourse. For example, the heart basis (hadaya-vatthu) [is not referred to] in the exposition of the bases in the same text.** And on [still other] occasions, [something] is mentioned that is not possible or that does not exist, for example, the exposition of the duration of an aeon; thus it has been said [Pp 13 (DHT 20)]: For which individual does an aeon endure? If a certain individual should be entering the realization of the fruition state of Stream-Entry, and it should be time for the destruction by fire of the aeon, the aeon whould not be destroyed by fire as long as that individual has not realized the fruition state of Stream-Entry. *As 264 (commenting on Dhs 92 #468) (Exp 351). **Dhs 133 (#595). The commentary in the Visuddhimagga discusses why the term hadaya-vatthu is not included in the list of material forms (translated in PPf XIV, n.26). Evamidhaapi alabbhamaanagaha.navasena veditabba.m, parikappavacana~nheta.m sace bhagavaa bhikkhunibhaavayogya.m ka~nci maatugaama.m ehi bhikkhuniiti vadeyya, evampi bhikkhunibhaavo siyaati. Kasmaa pana bhagavaa eva.m na kathesiiti? Tathaa kataadhikaaraana.m abhaavato. Ye pana "anaasannasannihitabhaavato"ti kaara.na.m vatvaa "bhikkhuu eva hi satthu aasannacaarii sadaa sannihitaava, tasmaa te 'ehibhikkhuu'ti vattabbata.m arahanti, na bhikkhuniyo"ti vadanti, ta.m tesa.m matimatta.m. Satthu aasannaduurabhaavassa bhabbaabhabbabhaavaasiddhattaa. Thus, in this case also, this is to be understood in the sense of mentioning what does not exist.* This is a hypothesis: "If 'Come, bhikkhunii,' should be said by the Blessed One to any woman who is suitable for admission as a bhikkhunii, then there would be admission as a bhikkhunii." But why did the Blessed One not say that? Because none of them had done [the appropriate] meritorious acts. As for those who give as a reason [that women] were not close or near at hand and who say is is only bhikkhus who, living close to the teacher, are always near at hand and are therefore fit to be addressed with the words, "Come, bhikkhu," but [that this is] not [true for] bhikkhuniis - that is merely their opinion, for being capable or incapable is not brought about by being near or far from the Teacher. *I.e., an impossible situation is described to show the power of attaining the fruition state of a Stream-Winner imediately after attaining the path. Vutta~nheta.m bhagavataa- "Sa"nghaa.tika.n.ne cepi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gahetvaa pi.t.thito pi.t.thito anubandho assa pade pada.m nikkhipanto, so ca hoti abhijjhaalu kaamesu tibbasaaraago byaapannacitto padu.t.thamanasa"nkappo mu.t.thassati asampajaano asamaahito vibbhantacitto paakatindriyo atha kho so aarakaava mayha.m, aha~nca tassa. Ta.m kissa hetu? Dhamma~nhi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu na passati, dhamma.m apassanto na ma.m passati. "Yojanasate cepi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vihareyya. So ca hoti anabhijjhaalu kaamesu na tibbasaaraago abyaapannacitto appadu.t.thamanasa"nkappo upa.t.thitassati sampajaano samaahito ekaggacitto sa.mvutindriyo, atha kho so santikeva mayha.m, aha~nca tassa. Ta.m kissa hetu? Dhamma~nhi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu passati, dhamma.m passanto ma.m passatii"ti (itivu. 92). This was said by the Blessed One [It 91 (MinAnth II 181, TI 69f)]: Bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu grasps a corner of my outer robe and follows close behind me step by step but is covetious of sensual pleasures, confused by passion, one whose mind bears malice, of corrupt intention, one who forgets to be mindful, who is not attentive, not composed, with a wandering mind, and with uncontrolled faculties - at the same time he is far from me and I from him. What is the reason for that? Bhikkhus, that bhikkhu has not seen the Doctrine. Not seeing the Doctrine, he does not see me. Bhikkhus, even if a bhikkhu should live a hundred leagues away but is not covetous of sensual pleasures, not confused by passion, one whose mind is free from malice, whose thought is not corrupt, who has established mindfulness, who is attentive, composed, with a concentrated mind, and with controlled faculties, at the same time, he is in my presence and I in his. What is the reason for this? Bhikkhus, that bhikkhu sees the Doctrine. Seeing the Doctrine, he sees me. Tasmaa akaara.na.m desato satthu aasannaanaasannataa. Akataadhikaarataaya pana bhikkhuniina.m tattha ayogyataa. Tena vutta.m- "ehibhikkhuniduko idha na labbhatii"ti. Eva.m duvidhaa. Therefore, being in a place near or not near the Teacher is not a cause. But becuase they have not done the meritorious act, bhikkhuniis are not suitable in that regard. Therefore, it is said [abover] here, it is not possible [to make] a "Come, bhikkhunii" pair. In this way, they are of two sorts. .. to be continued, connie #83007 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:03 am Subject: Re: Right Speech m_nease Hi Walter, Jeff Brooks is a bit of a celebrity with his own web site now. Just wanted to say 'thanks' for a good post and looking forward to more. mike #83008 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/21/2008 5:23:26 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Dhammas/elements cannot be detached from unless and until they are seen for what they truly are. The development of the panna that will detach must begin with a correct intellectual understanding of what these dhamma/elements are. ................................................. Hi Jon And what exactly should they be seen as? TG #83009 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani nilovg Dear Scott, thank you very much. I keep it in my Beginner's Abhidhamma file. Nina. Op 21-feb-2008, om 15:55 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Here is the text for Dhs. 617: > > "What is the [material] form which is the sphere of [visible] shape? #83010 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:15 pm Subject: Re: Right Speech walterhorn Thanks, mike. That sounds like me: not only was I responding (somewhat negatively) to a post that was made in 2004, but it was to something that was written by one who is now something of a celeb in these circles. Excellent work, Walto! I gotta go now, though: I'm off to slay my next windmill.... W #83011 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Hi Steven (Nina, Howard, Scott) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "crosby_s" wrote: > > > Is this discussion for advanced beginners because i find this > discussion very hard to understand. > > With Metta, > > Steven. > I appreciate this feedback. Yes, the Abhidhamma is difficult. But we are lucky to have Nina and Scott around. So if you write a few lines to tell us about a difficulty you have experienced, I am sure you will get help. I will also try to provide more details to accompany each question that I am going to ask Nina from now. Thanks. Tep === #83012 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:13 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Dear Nina (Howard and other "beginners"), - Thanks to the detail you gave concerning the following: 1. The "different rúpas which are characteristics of rúpa" i.e. origination, continuity, decay, and falling away. 2. Group of rúpa that arise & fall away in the seventeen moments . ........ >Tep: ... in MN 138 the visible form is a macroscopic ruupa, not "colors" that arise and pass away rapidly at the moment of eye- consciousness. ------- N: Seeing sees colour, but after seeing has fallen away colour still subsists and can be experienced by the other cittas in that process, including the javanacittas, akusala cittas or kusala cittas. T: Thank you for the point that "colour still subsists" even though I have no idea why it does so, since it is a paramattha dhamma. [I am sorry for a typo that is corrected above(it was 'microscopic ruupa' that I changed to 'macroscopic ruupa'.)] ............. >Tep: Clearly to me, the consciousness above is not an eye- consciousness; I would rather call it ' mind' (mano vinnana?). N: Right, in the sutta cittas are not described from moment to moment. This refers to kusala cittas with understanding. T: It is good that you see the difference too. Thanks. ................... T: I think you have given a very important message about the purpose of insight development, after quoting the Expositor: -- Only the mind-door recognizes the past or the future; the five senses only cognize an arisen matter at the present moment. N: The stages of insight have to be developed so that impermanence, arising and falling away of nama and rupa can be realized. ................... Tep === #83013 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:20 pm Subject: Re: Samseva: 'companionship'. kenhowardau Hi Steven, ---- S:> Is absolute reality "emptiness", "voidness", "nothingness""empty" in the sense of lacking independent, persistent existence. All phenomena are (void,empty), as they are relative and so lack substantiality and independent reality; they are conditioned by and depenedent on other phenomena. ---- You are correct in saying that all absolute realities are devoid of a self or persisting entity. But don't take that too far. Don't get the impression that, ultimately, nothing really exists in its own right. The practice of satipatthana is to take one conditioned dhamma as an object of right mindfulness. For example, seeing (which is a nama) has to be known as different from visible object (which is a rupa) and it has to be known as different from hearing (which is another nama) and so on. Conditioned dhammas are fleeting, unsatisfactory and devoid of self, but they exist nonetheless. Each of them has its own inherent characteristics. And so, in that way, dhammas *do* have substance (sabhava). They are conditioned to exist for one fleeting moment in order to arise, perform their functions and fall away. (The one unconditioned dhamma, nibbana, exists unconditionally.) Just think for a minute what the world would be like if nothing really existed. There would be no real difference between good and evil: no real difference between right and wrong . . . There would be no real way out! Ken H #83014 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Two-way Conditioning Force .. dhammanusara Hi Nina (Howard & others)- This is a continuing conversation: >Nina: > Visible object is object condition for the citta that experiences it. It operates by its force of object-condition. > > Tep: > I see. So the citta that experiences an object must also have a > "force of citta-condition" that affects the object! An example : vinnana conditions namarupa; namaruupa conditions vinnana. Does that make sense? > ------- N: There is no force of citta-condition affecting the object. Seeing does not affect colour at all. But colour is object-condition for seeing. T: I see. N: The passage you mention has to do with other types of conditions. We should distinguish the method of D.O. from the Patthaana, although the conditions mentioned in the Patthaana are applied when considering the D.O. Rebirth-consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) conditions naama, here the conascent cetasikas by conascence-condition and mutuality-condition. It also conditions the kamma-produced ruupa arising at the same time by conascence-condition. The force here is conascence. T: It is clear. Thanks. Tep === #83015 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:04 pm Subject: Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. .. Transformation into Sotapanna?.. dhammanusara Hi Jon, - It might look like we were seriously disagreeing in the previous post. But after reading through your reply, I only find minor disagreements. > >Jon: Thus, at moments of seeing consciousness, the object is visible object, but not *the visible object aspect of a person*. > > T: That idea, which I agee in principle, is a truth in the ultimate > sense that is not what puthujjhana is able to extract from the > *overall* reality. The overall reality includes both worldly sense > and ultimate sense. The view of any puthujjana who ignores the > worldly sense is at best one-sided. Jon: " ... according to the teachings, things actually are, in the ultimate sense. .. it seems to me that without the correct understanding of this at an intellectual level, there cannot be the development of the path". T: That's true; if we don't use an appropriate "raft", then there is no crossing from the putthujana's side of the river. But that talking about the "moments of seeing consciousness" implies the ariyan's ability to "see" paramatthadhamma, I think. ................................... T: This dialogue is 50% agreeable. > Jon: I agree that ignorance is eradicated by right understanding, as > is wrong view. With the eradication of wrong view, there is no more > taking of "person" as having any substance, because there is no more > wrong view about the nature of dhammas. > > T: Absolutely. But are we *there* yet? To insist on seeing the ariya > right view in a puthujjana is an ignorance. How can a view that is > infested with ignorance be right view? And you replied : 1. Right view (panna cetasika) is not exclusive to the ariyan. It comes in different strengths and levels. The right view of the ariyan is highly developed. The right view of the unenlightened being is much less so, very weak even. But it is only by virtue of its arising, again and again, that it can be developed. And when it does arise, the person is not at that moment "infested with ignorance". 2. Fortunately for us, the Buddha discovered the way for the development of right view and explained at length the conditions for it arising in the person who is not yet enlightened. 3. So while it is true that the worldling cannot have the ariyan's right view, he can still have right view of a lesser degree, that is to say view that is free of all ignorance and wrong view. And while those moments may be few and far between, their cumulative effect is nevertheless extremely valuable, I think. ............. T: 1. If you delete "is not exclusive to the ariyan", everything else is agreeable to me. Right view comes in different strengths and levels. etc. etc. 2. That is a very broad statement, Jon. Yes, it is true. 3. I neither agree nor disagree, 'cause I don't know. A question: how (and why) do you know that the worldling can have a view "that is free of all ignorance and wrong view"? I would say that moment defines stream-entry; i.e. the "worldling" is completely transformed into the first-stage ariya puggala (Sotapanna). I can give a few sutta quotes, but doing so may not change your view at all. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > > >Jon: Thus, at moments of seeing consciousness, the object is visible object, but not *the visible object aspect of a person*. > > #83016 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:17 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Dear Scott, - I am grateful for your time and effort to type the English and Pali texts that greatly enhance our Dhamma study. Scott: Here is the text for Dhs. 617: "What is the [material] form which is the sphere of [visible] shape? The [material] form which, derived from the great principles, is visible under the appearance of colour and reacting - is blue, yellow, red, white, black, crimson, bronze, green-coloured, of the hue of the mango-bud; is long, short, big, little, circular, oval, square, hexagonal, octagonal, hekkaidecagonal; low, high, shady, glowing, light, dim, dull, frosty, smoky, dusty,; like in colour to the disc of the moon, sun, stars, a mirror, a gem, a shell, a pearl, a cat's eye, gold, silver; or whatever other shape there is which, derived from the four Great Phenomena, is visible and reacting - shape which, visible and reacting, one has seen, sees, will, or may see with the eye that is invisible and reacting - this which is visible shape, this which is sphere of visible shape, the constituent element of visible shape - this is that form which is the sphere of visible shape." "Katama.m ta.m ruupa.m ruupaayatana.m? Ya.m ruupa.m catunna.m mahaabuutaana.m upaadaaya va.n.nibhaa sanidassana.m sapati.gha.m niila.m piitaka.m lohitaka.m odaata.m kaa.laka.m ma~nji.t.thaaka.m hari hariva.n.nana.m amba"nkurava.n.na.m diigha.m rassa.m a.nu.m thuulna.m va.t.ta.m parima.n.dala.m catura.msa.m cha.la.msa.m a.t.tha.msa.m so.lasa.msa.m ninna.m thala.m chaayaa aatapo aaloko andhakaaro abbhaa mahikaa dhuumo rajo candama.n.dalassa va.n.nanibhaa suuriyama.n.dalassa va.n.nanibhaa taarakaruupaana.m va.n.nanibhaa aadaasama.n.dalassa va.n.nanibhaa ma.nisa"nkhamuttaaeve.luriyassa va.n.nanibhaa jaataruuparajatassa va.n.nanibhaa, ya.m vaa pana~n~nampi atthi ruupa.m catunna.m mahaabuutaana.m upaadaaya va.n.nanibhaa sanidassana.m sapa.tigha.m cakkhunaa anadassena sapa.tighena passi vaa passati vaa passasati vaa passe vaa, ruupa.m peta.m ruupaayatana.m peta.m ruupadhaatu pesaa - idaa.m ta.m ruupa.m ruupaayatana.m." ................... Thank you very much. Tep === #83017 From: steven crosby Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:39 pm Subject: Re: Samseva: 'companionship'. crosby_s Ken:Conditioned dhammas are fleeting, unsatisfactory and devoid of self, but they exist nonetheless. Each of them has its own inherent characteristics. And so, in that way, dhammas *do* have substance (sabhava). They are conditioned to exist for one fleeting moment in order to arise, perform their functions and fall away. (The one unconditioned dhamma, nibbana, exists unconditionally. ) Steven:So dhammas do have substance, but it is fleeting as it rises and falls away.So they dont have persistent existence.How do we know nibbana exists unconditionally? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ -------------------------------- Ken: Just think for a minute what the world would be like if nothing really existed. There would be no real difference between good and evil: no real difference between right and wrong . . . There would be no real way out! Steven:Sounds like parts of the world we live in, Iraq,Darfur,Afghanistan etc. With Metta, Steven. #83018 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, It is interesting that feeling isn't an object of clinging. Also, just as a matter of your own experience, when there is the sense "I am the possessor of the 5 khandhas", what is that "I"? I was looking at personality today and it seems that there is a personality that has a particular characteristic but I'm having trouble defining it in terms of the 5 khandhas. Do you know what I mean? An ongoing sense of "Nina" that is pretty much the same from day to day. It doesn't seem like a concept or conceit. It is something that is unique to Nina. Larry #83019 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:52 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. dhammanusara Hi TG, (Nina, Scott, any Abhidhammika)- Thank you very much indeed for the Dhamma discussion that flows from your "mindful observation" and confidence. TG: There are certainly plenty of clues in the Suttas, but the cause for impermanence is not spoken of directly. T: I think the sutta below says that anicca is a characteristic of all sankhata dhammas and that it is explained by "arising, passing away, and alteration". Impermanence of any sankhata dhamma is caused by impermanent conditions that come together. I know, you can go on and ask : what is the cause of impermanence in those conditions that come together ! I don't know how to answer that question, the same way I don't know why some roses are red, or why there are the 18 dhatus present in the universe. AN 3.47 (Sankhata Sutta) "Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) of what stays is discernible. "These are three fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. [end of quote] ...................... TG: Abhidhamma also does not provide real reasons, but just flat and shallow explanations when it comes to the cause for impermanence. In Abhidhamma... "impermanence just is" and one would certainly be confused if trying to find out the cause for impermanence by relying solely on that source. T: You know I am just a beginner in the Abhidhamma learning. I would appreciate it if you can be more specific about the source of the quote you gave. If you can, then I will go back to my Abhidhamma Pitaka to learn more. Your friend, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > ...... > > The dynamics of the 24 conditions underly those conditions, and the 24 > conditions "themselves" are explanations of other phenomena. The Abhidhamma > system explains a lot of things, but impermanence or the fundamental dynamics of > conditionality is not among them. > #83020 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The three feelings that are vipaaka. lbidd2 Hi Nina, These are exactly the words I was looking for. Thanks very much for digging them out. Larry --------------------- #83021 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:40 pm Subject: Re: Samseva: 'companionship'. kenhowardau Hi Steven, ------------ <. . .> S: > So dhammas do have substance, but it is fleeting as it rises and falls away. ------------- Yes, that's how I understand it. I might add, however, that it is not technically correct to say that sabhava, itself, arises and falls away. One characteristic of dhammas is that they arise and fall away, but that characteristic itself does not arise and fall away. This is probably a minor point, but it makes sense, doesn't it? Sabhava does not have sabhava that, in turn, has sabhava that, in turn, . . and so on infinitum. ----------------- S: > So they don't have persistent existence. ----------------- Not only do they *not* have persistent existence they *do* have non- persistent existence. Non-persistence (anicca) is a characteristic that they possess - it is not a mere absence of something they do not possess. And so anicca can be seen to be part of a conditioned dhamma's sabhava, or substance. -------------- S: > How do we know nibbana exists unconditionally? -------------- When an ariyan experiences nibbana he momentarily experiences the end (or absence) of conditioned existence. The absence of conditioned existence can't depend on conditions, can it? However, the consciousness that experiences nibbana does depend on conditions, and so (because, like all conditioned dhammas, it has the anicca characteristic ) it lasts only for a moment. (As you no doubt know: while nibbana does have the anatta characteristic, it does not have the anicca characteristic.) Ken H BTW: I think what I have said here is generally correct, but there are other people here who could explain it better - and probably with a few amendments. :-) #83022 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... Hi Tep I didn't give you any quotes. The Suttas or Abhidhamma do not detail the "cause" for impermanence. They just say that all conditions are impermanent. They might explain how one condition affects the next, but that is still not an answer to your question. I would suggest that there are not necessarily 18 elements per se. There are 18 in regards to human experience. Since the Buddha's teaching is meant for humans, its all that really matters. Our senses are in response to physical forces and those are the predominant forces that we needed to develop in order to survive. Who's to say that the ability of some animals to feel earthquakes coming ... are not equipped with 3 more elements. Or that bats can, through a type of radar, see objects that we would consider sound objects. Its all relative to conditions, there is no absolute in that regard. Back to impermanence though...if you want to know the cause for impermanence, your not going to find it written in any Buddhist text that I'm aware of. You're going to need to piece it together for yourself, using other source material and observations/mindfulness, but you can use the Buddhist texts as partial guides. They just don't directly deal with the issue. TG #83023 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:27 pm Subject: Re: Samseva: 'companionship'. kenhowardau Hi again, Steven, I've just remembered your other comment: > > Ken: Just think for a minute what the world would be like if nothing > really existed. There would be no real difference between good and > evil: no real difference between right and wrong . . . There would be > no real way out! > > Steven:Sounds like parts of the world we live in, Iraq,Darfur,Afghanistan etc. > Yes, and it also sounds like my own backyard. I try to help birds and frogs etc to have a happy life, but every interference, no matter how well intentioned, is likely to have harmful effects for some poor creature. There is no way out for the conventionally known world. The only way out is to see the ultimate reality that lies behind the conventional known world. Ken H #83024 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Nina) - In a message dated 2/21/2008 7:46:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Nina, It is interesting that feeling isn't an object of clinging. =============================== I suppose that means that there is no clinging to the feeling *operation, per se. But I do think that feeling is often the basis for clinging. What is felt as pleasant is craved and clung to. Because of the affective evaluation of "pleasant", the object is clung to. I would guess that the operation of vedana, as an object of consciousness, is felt as neither pleasant nor unpleasant, which is why it isn't an object of clinging (if that, indeed, is so). With metta, Howard #83025 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:05 pm Subject: Re: Quiet, Solitude, Seclusion Now? E-card from Bangkok 3 glenjohnann Thank you, Nina. That clears it up - you are right, I was taking the conventional meaning of "shame". And, of course, hiri will only arise with kusala citta. Dosa is something else entirely. Ann #83026 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Howard, Regarding whether feeling is an object of clinging, I'm waiting for Nina to confirm that that is the correct interpretation, but it could be that feeling is a quasi attribute of objects and therefore it is the object we cling to rather than the attribute. Another reason might be that mind door objects, with the exception of views, aren't objects of clinging because they are too ephemeral, ungraspable, while physical objects and views do seem to be graspable. I'm counting "rites and rituals" as a form of views. And one could cling to a hedonistic view. I think we should consider that all objects of clinging are viewed with ignorance of ultimate realities. Otherwise they wouldn't be objects of clinging. Larry #83027 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani nilovg Hi Tep, I hope also asking others! Enough people who can help! I have to curb writing posts somewhat, although I really like to study Abhidhamma and consider your and Howard's questions. Nina. Op 21-feb-2008, om 23:38 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > I will also try to provide more details to accompany each question > that I am going to ask Nina from now. #83028 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 22-feb-2008, om 1:45 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Also, just as a matter of your own experience, when there is the sense > "I am the possessor of the 5 khandhas", what is that "I"? ------- N: An illusion. But I still go after illusions. Accumulations! -------- > L: I was looking > at personality today and it seems that there is a personality that > has a > particular characteristic but I'm having trouble defining it in > terms of > the 5 khandhas. Do you know what I mean? An ongoing sense of "Nina" > that > is pretty much the same from day to day. It doesn't seem like a > concept > or conceit. It is something that is unique to Nina. ------- N: Cittas arise and fall away in succession and thus certain tendencies, call it character, are accumulated. There is a certain continuity here, but this is in the fugurative sense. New skills can be learnt, understanding can be developed so that the accumulated ignorance can be eliminated, little by little. A character can be changed. Rupas of the body arise and fall away. They are replaced so long as there are conditions, that is, so long as kamma, citta, heat and nutrition produce new rupas. It seems to us that rupas of the body are there already, but this is an illusion. The new ones do not exactly improve with age ;-)) Citta, cetasika and rupa, or the five khandhas, that is the same, are different in the case of this individual or that individual. This is what you may call unique. Nina. #83029 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. nilovg Hi TG and Tep, Op 22-feb-2008, om 1:52 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Impermanence of any sankhata dhamma is caused > by impermanent conditions that come together. ... > > AN 3.47 (Sankhata Sutta) > "Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is > fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is > discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) of what stays is > discernible. ------- N: Yes, Tep gives the right explanation and sutta quote. When conditioning factors are combined it causes the arising of a certain dhamma. Sankhaara is literally: doing together, putting together. When there is arising at a certain moment, it shows that that dhamma was not there from all eternity. It was not there at first, thus it is not eternal or permanent. The combination of different factors that condition the arising of that dhamma cannot stay forever, these have to go. Evenso that conditioned dhamma, it cannot stay. Nina. #83030 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Howard and Larry, Op 22-feb-2008, om 4:45 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It is interesting that feeling isn't an object of clinging. > =============================== > I suppose that means that there is no clinging to the feeling > *operation, per se. But I do think that feeling is often the basis > for clinging. ------- N: It is said in the D.O. that feeling conditions craving and craving conditions clinging. And clinging is firm grasping. There is a certain order of the links, but this does not mean that there are no other conditions operating. Of course we crave for and cling to feeling. We cling to all objects, including feeling. ---------- > H: What is felt as pleasant is craved and clung to. Because of the > affective > evaluation of "pleasant", the object is clung to. ------- N: As the Visuddhimagga text rightly said: there is clinging also to what is unhappy feeling: one wants to be rid of it. As to indifferent feeling, counted as unhappiness or happiness, depending on whether the object experienced by the sense-cognitions that are accompanmoied by it are experiencing a desirable object or undesirable object. And this depends on kamma. Kamma rpoduces the sense-cognitions which are kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. -------- > H: I would guess that the operation of vedana, as an object of > consciousness, is felt as neither pleasant nor unpleasant, which is > why it isn't an > object of clinging (if that, indeed, is so). ------- N: Here I do not follow you: the operation of feeling. Is it not known what type of feeling operates? ------- Larry: Regarding whether feeling is an object of clinging, I'm waiting for Nina to confirm that that is the correct interpretation, but it could be that feeling is a quasi attribute of objects and therefore it is the object we cling to rather than the attribute. ------- N: We cling to feeling, but now, when using the word clinging, we are speaking in general, not with reference to the links of the D.O. ---------- L: Another reason might be that mind door objects, with the exception of views, aren't objects of clinging because they are too ephemeral, ungraspable, while physical objects and views do seem to be graspable. I'm counting "rites and rituals" as a form of views. And one could cling to a hedonistic view. ------ N: All objects are ephemeral, and citta with clinging is very fast. It arises because clinging is accumulated and will always find an object. Also mind door objects. -------- L: I think we should consider that all objects of clinging are viewed with ignorance of ultimate realities. Otherwise they wouldn't be objects of clinging. ------ N: True. The Visuddhimagga has some striking similes: licking a knife's edge smeared with honey, or "like one desiring celestial nymphs [who jumps over] a cliff. " (Vis. XVII< 63) And: < The fruit of merit is taken for agreeable and pleasant, but in order to show its danger it is compared to the falling into a lamp’s flame and the licking of honey from the knife’s edge... Being a fool since he indulges in sense pleasure, he is like a child playing with dung... The citta accompanied by lobha is like playing with dung, and the citta accompanied by dosa is like taking poison, the Tiika states. Nina. #83031 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani nilovg Hi Tep, Op 22-feb-2008, om 0:13 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > T: Thank you for the point that "colour still subsists" even though I > have no idea why it does so, since it is a paramattha dhamma. ------- N: It is rupa and compared to citta it lasts seventeen times longer. That is why a rupa that impinges on a doorway is not experienced by one citta but by a whole series or process of cittas. Nina. #83032 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Hi, all - I wrote to Steven: > > > I will also try to provide more details to accompany each question > > that I am going to ask Nina from now. > And Nina suggested : > > Hi Tep, > I hope also asking others! Enough people who can help! I have to curb writing posts somewhat, although I really like to study Abhidhamma and consider your and Howard's questions. > Nina. Yes, Nina, I agree to post questions to all knowledgeable members from now. :-) Tep === #83033 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. dhammanusara Hi TG (and Abhidhammikas), - You wrote: "Who's to say that the ability of some animals to feel earthquakes coming ... are not equipped with 3 more elements. Or that bats can, through a type of radar, see objects that we would consider sound objects. Its all relative to conditions, there is no absolute in that regard". T: That's an interesting and wise observation. However, the "radar" and associated sensing organ might be classifiable as the "ear" or "eye" or a combination of both, perhaps? What do you understand as Nibbana dhatu and asankhata dhatu (not included in the group of 18)? Does sankhata dhatu include the 18 dhatus? Tep === #83034 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Quiet, Solitude, Seclusion Now? E-card from Bangkok 3 sarahprocter... Dear Ann & all, When one feels shame (as we usually understand the word), taking it for my shame, feeling embarassed and so on, it's quite different from the moments of kusala when hiri performs its function without anyone having to do anything. K.Sujin stresses that when hiri arises it is detached from akusala. The shame of hiri prevents akusala from arising and is the opposite of ahirika(shamelessness) which arises with all akusala cittas and has no shame of that akusala. As I mentioned, we discussed how very subtle the shamelessness can be, such as when we are shameless enough to ask for something that may cause just a very little trouble. Of course, sometimes we ask for things that we know will be appreciated by the others. Good to read your reflections.....do keep chipping in! Metta, Sarah --- glenjohnann wrote: > Thank you, Nina. That clears it up - you are right, I was taking the > conventional meaning of "shame". And, of course, hiri will only > arise with kusala citta. Dosa is something else entirely. #83035 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/21/2008 11:29:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, Regarding whether feeling is an object of clinging, I'm waiting for Nina to confirm that that is the correct interpretation, but it could be that feeling is a quasi attribute of objects and therefore it is the object we cling to rather than the attribute. Another reason might be that mind door objects, with the exception of views, aren't objects of clinging because they are too ephemeral, ungraspable, while physical objects and views do seem to be graspable. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, no, I think that's clearly false about mind-door objects. We typically cling to pa~n~natti ferociously. -------------------------------------------- I'm counting "rites and rituals" as a form of views. And one could cling to a hedonistic view. --------------------------------------------- Howard: And what of emotions? Don't we cling to them? ---------------------------------------- I think we should consider that all objects of clinging are viewed with ignorance of ultimate realities. Otherwise they wouldn't be objects of clinging. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I think that whatever can be experienced as pleasant is clingable, and if one includeswithin "clinging" any sort of emotional attachment, positve or negative, whether it grows out of craving for presence (lobha) or craving for absence (dosa), then all conditioned dhammas seem to me to be clingable. What of the expression "The five aggregates of (or beset by) clinging"? In an arahant, this is an empty set, but in worldlings I don't understand this expression to make any particular exclusions. But getting back to the specific issue of vedana, let me ask you to consider this: Suppose for 5 minutes the operation of vedana ceased entirely, and then it resumed. After that resumption, would there be any clinging to it?! ;-)) ------------------------------------------- Larry ======================== With metta, Howard #83036 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani upasaka_howard Hi, Nina & Tep - In a message dated 2/22/2008 2:09:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Tep, I hope also asking others! Enough people who can help! I have to curb writing posts somewhat, although I really like to study Abhidhamma and consider your and Howard's questions. Nina. ============================ My opinion on this program of study: We should proceed slowly, paragraph by paragraph, but steadily, and without bringing in other not-yet-examined Abhidhammic material any more than absolutely necessary to understand what is in front of us. It seems to me that as we look at a paragraph, it should be mainly explained on the basis of sutta material, commentaries, and Abhidhamma material we've already gone through. We need to go slowly, but we also need to stick with the direct material and not get side-tracked. With metta, Howard #83037 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:52 am Subject: Re: Right Speech jonoabb Hi Steven I realise you've already received a number of replies to your post, but I thought I'd chip in with another one. The question you've raised here is one of those apparent dilemmas that all of us get caught up in from time to time. But the resolution is really quite straightforward, when you think about it. Kusala (wholesome) consciousness, such as right speech, can arise regardless of the situation we are in. Once we have confidence that this is so, we stop worrying about (i.e., blaming) the situation. Speech or action will be kusala if the accompanying mind-state is kusala. Thus there is no such thing as the "kusala way" of responding to a given situation; it all comes down to the mind-state. But if we have confidence in the development of kusala, there will be more kusala in our lives than before, and this is progress. So I'd encourage you just to continue keeping in mind what you have come to understand about the teachings. And let us know after a while how it has gone! Jon PS There are other ways of kusala than right speech. I think you'd find it helpful not to focus on any one particular form of kusala. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "crosby_s" wrote: > > "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive > speech, from abusive speech, and from idle chatter: This is called > right speech." > > I am trying to cultivate right speech in my mind but it is very hard > when the people i work with have abusive speech and idle chatter. > I know all parts of the noble 8 fold path work together, but how do > you cultivate this in a working class western society that views this > as a normal way of living.Should i ignore people like this or turn my > speech or rhetoric towards them into something good, say sort of like > the yang to there ying.I suppose it is hard when you have a life > change for the good, cause the bad tend to be still there and you have > to counter it some way if you are still amongst it? ... #83038 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi TG > And what exactly should they [dhammas/elements] be seen as? To my understanding, for a dhamma to be seen as it truly is means for it to be seen (a) as a nama or rupa, or (b) as having the characteristic of anicca, dukkha or anatta, or (c) as a khandha, dhatu, ayatana, etc. Jon #83039 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:16 am Subject: Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. .. Transformation into Sotapanna?.. jonoabb Hi Tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Jon, - > > It might look like we were seriously disagreeing in the previous > post. But after reading through your reply, I only find minor > disagreements. Not like the old days ;-)) > T: That's true; if we don't use an appropriate "raft", then there is > no crossing from the putthujana's side of the river. But that talking > about the "moments of seeing consciousness" implies the ariyan's > ability to "see" paramatthadhamma, I think. Would you mind saying a little about why, as you see it, talking about the "moments of seeing consciousness" implies the ariyan's ability to "see" paramattha dhamma. I don't see it that way. In case this should be relevant, I'd like to clarify that I'm not talking about seeing *individual moments* of seeing consciousness; just seeing (multiple moments of) seeing consciousness as that consciousness that experiences visible object. > T: 1. If you delete "is not exclusive to the ariyan", everything > else is agreeable to me. > > Right view comes in different strengths and levels. etc. etc. What is the significance, as you see it, of omitting the reference to right view not being exclusive to the ariyan? I don't get your point. > 2. That is a very broad statement, Jon. Yes, it is true. > > 3. I neither agree nor disagree, 'cause I don't know. > > A question: how (and why) do you know that the worldling can have a > view "that is free of all ignorance and wrong view"? I would say that > moment defines stream-entry; i.e. the "worldling" is completely > transformed into the first-stage ariya puggala (Sotapanna). I can > give a few sutta quotes, but doing so may not change your view at all. Thanks for the question. OK, let's talk classes (jati) of consciousness for a minute. There are 4: kusala, akusala, vipaka, kiriya. Of these, only the akusala arises with ignorance (always) or wrong view (sometimes). The other 3 kinds are without ignorance or wrong view. So for example at moments of seeing consciousness and any of the other five-sense-door consciousnesses (of which there are many in a day), being vipaka citta, there is no ignorance or wrong view. Of course, ignorance or wrong view may arise in the subsequent javana cittas in the sense-door or succeeding mind-door processes (but then again they may not). But in any case, regardless of the fact that the consciousness is akusala most of the time, if there is awareness of a presently arising dhamma, which may include akusala consciousness, there is also at that moment no ignorance or wrong view. It is the accumulation and development of such moments that leads eventually to stream entry. How otherwise could any person ever get to the stage of Sotapanna? Jon #83040 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Larry) - I replied based on the assumption I made from Larry's post that Abhidhamma indicates no clinging to vedana. But if you check my last post on this, you'll see that my position coincides with what you express below. In a message dated 2/22/2008 5:29:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Larry, Op 22-feb-2008, om 4:45 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It is interesting that feeling isn't an object of clinging. > =============================== > I suppose that means that there is no clinging to the feeling > *operation, per se. But I do think that feeling is often the basis > for clinging. ------- N: It is said in the D.O. that feeling conditions craving and craving conditions clinging. And clinging is firm grasping. There is a certain order of the links, but this does not mean that there are no other conditions operating. Of course we crave for and cling to feeling. We cling to all objects, including feeling. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. ----------------------------------------------- ---------- > H: What is felt as pleasant is craved and clung to. Because of the > affective > evaluation of "pleasant", the object is clung to. ------- N: As the Visuddhimagga text rightly said: there is clinging also to what is unhappy feeling: one wants to be rid of it. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. ------------------------------------------------- As to indifferent feeling, counted as unhappiness or happiness, depending on whether the object experienced by the sense-cognitions that are accompanmoied by it are experiencing a desirable object or undesirable object. And this depends on kamma. Kamma rpoduces the sense-cognitions which are kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. -------- > H: I would guess that the operation of vedana, as an object of > consciousness, is felt as neither pleasant nor unpleasant, which is > why it isn't an > object of clinging (if that, indeed, is so). ------- N: Here I do not follow you: the operation of feeling. Is it not known what type of feeling operates? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Here I don't follow *you*. Vedana is a mental operation that affectively "tastes" objects. It is the operation that is the cetasika, and I take the question of whether we cling to vedana or not as the question of whether we cling to that cetasika. There is no dispute that we cling to an object (positively) that is typically tasted as pleasant and we cling to an object (negatively - obsessing about it, etc) that is typically tasted negatively. But clinging to an object on the basis of how it is affectively felt is a different matter from clinging to the cetasika vedana itself. To explain further: Craving is a cetasika. Some people love the very operation of craving. They are "craving junkies," and so they cling to that cetasika. Others are distressed by craving that arises in them, they obsess about it all the time, and thus they also cling to craving. Still others are neutral about craving, and do not cling to it, but are able to mindfully and calmly observe it when it arises. Here we distinguish between the craving and the object craved. Likewise, just as we may cling or not cling to the cetasika of craving, a mental operation, we may also cling or not cling to the cetasika of vedana, another mental operation. ----------------------------------------------------- Larry: Regarding whether feeling is an object of clinging, I'm waiting for Nina to confirm that that is the correct interpretation, but it could be that feeling is a quasi attribute of objects and therefore it is the object we cling to rather than the attribute. ------- N: We cling to feeling, but now, when using the word clinging, we are speaking in general, not with reference to the links of the D.O. ---------- L: Another reason might be that mind door objects, with the exception of views, aren't objects of clinging because they are too ephemeral, ungraspable, while physical objects and views do seem to be graspable. I'm counting "rites and rituals" as a form of views. And one could cling to a hedonistic view. ------ N: All objects are ephemeral, and citta with clinging is very fast. It arises because clinging is accumulated and will always find an object. Also mind door objects. -------- L: I think we should consider that all objects of clinging are viewed with ignorance of ultimate realities. Otherwise they wouldn't be objects of clinging. ------ N: True. The Visuddhimagga has some striking similes: licking a knife's edge smeared with honey ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I love that simile! ------------------------------------------------------ , or "like one desiring celestial nymphs [who jumps over] a cliff. " (Vis. XVII< 63) And: < The fruit of merit is taken for agreeable and pleasant, but in order to show its danger it is compared to the falling into a lamp’s flame and the licking of honey from the knife’s edge... Being a fool since he indulges in sense pleasure, he is like a child playing with dung... The citta accompanied by lobha is like playing with dung, and the citta accompanied by dosa is like taking poison, the Tiika states. Nina. =========================== With metta, Howard #83041 From: "connie" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:40 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 50 16. Mahaanipaato Conclusion Aggasaavikaa, mahaasaavikaa, pakatisaavikaati tividhaa. They are of three sorts (1) as (a) chief disciples, (b) leading disciples and (c) ordinary disciples. Tattha khemaa, uppalava.n.naati imaa dve theriyo aggasaavikaa naama. Kaama.m sabbaapi khii.naasavattheriyo siilasuddhi-aadike sampaadentiyo catuusu satipa.t.thaanesu supa.t.thitacittaa sattabojjha"nge yathaabhuuta.m bhaavetvaa maggapa.tipaa.tiyaa anavasesato kilese khepetvaa aggaphale pati.t.thahanti. (a) In regard to that, Khemaa and Uppalava.n.naa were named as the two chief disciples among the theris. They were theriis with all sensual pleasure [and] with taints destroyed, with purity of virtuous conduce, etc, through striving for a properly established mind through the four foundations of mindfulness, having developed the seven constituents of awakening as they really are, having destroyed the defilements without remainder through the paths, one after the other, and standing fast in the highest fruition state. Tathaapi yathaa saddhaavimuttato di.t.thippattassa pa~n~naavimuttato ca ubhatobhaagavimuttassa pubbabhaagabhaavanaavisesasiddho icchito viseso, eva.m abhiniihaaramahantataapubbayogamahantataahisasantaane saatisayagu.navisesassa nipphaaditattaa siilaadiihi gu.nehi mahantaa saavikaati mahaasaavikaa. Likewise, as they are liberated by faith, having obtained right view, and liberated by understanding, having been liberated in both ways, having accomplished distinction in previous mental development through the desired distinction, thus, leading disciples (mahaa-savikaa) are said to be leading disciples (mahantaa saavikaa) through the qualities of virtuous conduct, etc, having produced the attaintment of preeminent qualities in that lineage though the magnitude of their former connection [with the Buddha] and the magnitude of their aspiration. Tesuyeva pana bodhipakkhiyadhammesu paamokkhabhaavena dhurabhuutaana.m sammaadi.t.thisammaasamaadhiina.m saatisayakiccaanubhaavanibbattiyaa kaara.nabhuutaaya tajjaabhiniihaarataaya sakkacca.m nirantara.m cirakaalasambhuutaaya sammaapa.tipattiyaa yathaakkama.m pa~n~naaya samaadhimhi ca ukka.msapaaramippattiyaa savisesa.m sabbagu.nehi aggabhaave .thitattaa taa dvepi aggasaavikaa naama. But with regard to these, through being leaders in [accomplishing] the requisites of awakening,they become foremost in right view and right concentration, etc, which was the cause of their being preeminent in the efficacy of fulfilling their duties. Through resolve of this sort, respectfully , continually producing for a long time the right practice, through wisdom and concentration in due order, having attained the highest level of perfection, standing in the attainment of all the best qualities, these two are called the chief disciples. Mahaapajaapatigotami-aadayo pana abhiniihaaramahantataaya pubbayogamahantataaya ca pa.tiladdhagu.navisesavasena mahatiyo saavikaati mahaasaavikaa naama. (b) But Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii, etc, through the magnitude of their aspiration and the importance of their former connection [with the Buddha], and because of the distinction of the good qualities they attained, they are great disciples (mahatiyo saavikaa), thus they are named leading disciples (mahaa-saavikaa). Itaraa therikaa tissaa viiraa dhiiraati evamaadikaa abhiniihaaramahantataadiina.m abhaavena pakatisaavikaa naama. Taa pana aggasaavikaa viya mahaasaavikaa viya ca na parimitaa, atha kho anekasataani anekasahassaani veditabbaani. Eva.m aggasaavikaadibhedato tividhaa. Tathaa su~n~natavimokkhaadibhedato tividhaa. (c) The others, Therikaa, Tissaa, Viraa, Dhiiraa, and others like them, through the absence of an important aspiration, etc, are called ordinary disciples. But unlike the chief disciples and the leading disciples, they cannot be measured; it is to be understood that there were many hundreds, many thousands of them. Thus, the chief disciples, etc., are to be divided into three sorts. Similarly, they are divided into three sorts (2) of liberation by the void, etc. (su~n~nata-vimokkhaadi).* *The other two are: liberation by the signless and liberation by the desireless (enumerated at Th-a III 206f). .. to be continued, connie #83042 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:24 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Dispeller of Delusion”(I, Ch 3, 55): about the earth element: As regards paìhavídhåtu (earth element) and so on, the meaning of element has the meaning of “nature” (sabhåva); and the meaning of nature has the meaning of “voidness” (suñña); and the meaning of voidness has the meaning of “not a being” (nissatta)... An element or paramattha dhamma has its own characteristic that cannot be changed: seeing experiences visible object, that is its nature. It arises because of its appropriate conditions and then it falls away. It is “not a being”. Seeing only sees what appears through the eyes, different from defining what we see. Hardness is a rúpa, but the experience of hardness is nåma. Sound appears, it is heard. There are sound and hearing, but there can be awareness of only one reality at a time. There can be another citta accompanied by paññå, and then paññå can understand sound as rúpa or hearing as nåma. When we think of the body as a whole, we think of a concept, an idea we have about the body. In reality, what we call body is constituted by many different rúpas that arise and fall away all the time. We notice decay of the body, and we think about its impermanence, but that is thinking of an idea, a concept we have of the body as impermanent. We do not realize the falling away of each rúpa separately, in other words, the momentary impermanence, the true charactertistic of impermanence. And therefore, we also fail to see the true characteristic of dukkha: what falls away each moment is no refuge, it is not worth clinging to, it is dukkha. Before we can blink our eyes, all the rupas of the body have already gone, from head to toe, there is nothing remaining. Our misconceptions about reality cannot be eradicated if we remain in the world of thinking, of illusions. If we realize that there are six separate worlds appearing through the six doors, one at a time, our world of illusions crumbles apart. We should remember the sutta “The world” (Kindred Sayings IV, First Fifty, Ch III, § 82) about the world that crumbles away. We read: “What crumbles away? The eye...objects...eye-consciousness...” and so on. Sutta after sutta the Buddha explains about six classes of objects, six bases, six sense-cognitions. The question is how can the world of illusions crumble away? Listening and reflection is the foundation of beginning to be directly aware of the dhammas that appear. When sati arises and is mindful of one dhamma at a time, understanding develops. However, when we cling to sati and try to focus on specific realities it is not the way to develop right understanding. Awareness can arise when there are the right conditions for its arising, but we should not expect many moments of it. Awareness and understanding can be gradually accumulated. It is not enough to be aware of rúpas of the body, also nåma has to be known. Kusala and akusala have to be known, thinking has to be known, understanding itself has to be known as only a nåma, otherwise we cling to it and take it for “my” understanding. ******* Nina. #83043 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 4. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/22/2008 9:25:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: When we think of the body as a whole, we think of a concept, an idea we have about the body. In reality, what we call body is constituted by many different rúpas that arise and fall away all the time. We notice decay of the body, and we think about its impermanence, but that is thinking of an idea, a concept we have of the body as impermanent. We do not realize the falling away of each rúpa separately, in other words, the momentary impermanence, the true charactertistic of impermanence. And therefore, we also fail to see the true characteristic of dukkha: what falls away each moment is no refuge, it is not worth clinging to, it is dukkha. Before we can blink our eyes, all the rupas of the body have already gone, from head to toe, there is nothing remaining. Our misconceptions about reality cannot be eradicated if we remain in the world of thinking, of illusions. If we realize that there are six separate worlds appearing through the six doors, one at a time, our world of illusions crumbles apart. We should remember the sutta “The worldâ€? (Kindred Sayings IV, First Fifty, Ch III, § 82) about the world that crumbles away. We read: “What crumbles away? The eye...objects...eye-consciousness...â€? and so on. Sutta after sutta the Buddha explains about six classes of objects, six bases, six sense-cognitions. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I like the foregoing very much, Nina. I think you have put it very well. ------------------------------------------------------ The question is how can the world of illusions crumble away? Listening and reflection is the foundation of beginning to be directly aware of the dhammas that appear. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that that this pair "is the foundation of the beginning." But, as I read the Buddha, far more intentional activity is required, including cultivating calm through sila, guarding the senses, and meditation, and cultivating wisdom through investigation of dhammas at ordinary times and in meditation. ========================= With metta, Howard #83044 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:07 am Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Hi Howard (Nina and others), - I already answered Nina's request to scale down her writing somewhat. I understand that she has been very busy. So now let me reply to you. >Howard: My opinion on this program of study: We should proceed slowly, paragraph by paragraph, but steadily, and without bringing in other not-yet-examined Abhidhammic material any more than absolutely necessary to understand what is in front of us. T: One paragraph at a time? That is a correct way to spoon-feed babies! Of course, I agree with you. >Howard: It seems to me that as we look at a paragraph, it should be mainly explained on the basis of sutta material, commentaries, and Abhidhamma material we've already gone through. We need to go slowly, but we also need to stick with the direct material and not get side- tracked. T: This control of the material selection and spoon-feeding speed is up to the experienced Abhidhammikas who are kind enough to answer our questions. So I will leave it to Nina and/or other participants to decide. As of now do you think all questions have been aswered clearly or not? I will not write a new post on a new material until you say "proceed!". Tep === #83045 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 2/22/2008 12:07:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Howard (Nina and others), - I already answered Nina's request to scale down her writing somewhat. I understand that she has been very busy. So now let me reply to you. >Howard: My opinion on this program of study: We should proceed slowly, paragraph by paragraph, but steadily, and without bringing in other not-yet-examined Abhidhammic material any more than absolutely necessary to understand what is in front of us. T: One paragraph at a time? That is a correct way to spoon-feed babies! Of course, I agree with you. >Howard: It seems to me that as we look at a paragraph, it should be mainly explained on the basis of sutta material, commentaries, and Abhidhamma material we've already gone through. We need to go slowly, but we also need to stick with the direct material and not get side- tracked. T: This control of the material selection and spoon-feeding speed is up to the experienced Abhidhammikas who are kind enough to answer our questions. So I will leave it to Nina and/or other participants to decide. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: The control is certainly hers. I still have a right to offer suggestions, though, I presume. ----------------------------------------------------- As of now do you think all questions have been aswered clearly or not? I will not write a new post on a new material until you say "proceed!". -------------------------------------------------- Howard: We've done two paragraphs, and I have no further questions on them. I'm certainly ready to go on. (As for my saying whether or not to proceed, I don't want that role. I'm one of many. Generally, when it seems that questioning has dwindled I would guess it's time to move on.) ------------------------------------------------ Tep ======================= With metta, Howard #83046 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/22/2008 5:59:53 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > And what exactly should they [dhammas/elements] be seen as? To my understanding, for a dhamma to be seen as it truly is means for it to be seen (a) as a nama or rupa, or (b) as having the characteristic of anicca, dukkha or anatta, or (c) as a khandha, dhatu, ayatana, etc. Jon ............................................................. Hi Jon With the exception of the tilakkhana, (which I would agree with you on), can you sight any reference at all in the Suttas where the Buddha or Arahat says that -- "for a dhamma to be seen AS IT REALLY (TRUELY) IS means -- to see it as -- the eye, or an eye object, or ear, or an element, or a khandha, etc.? For example, does the Buddha ever say -- [ to see something as it really is, is to see it as an element, etc. ] ? No inferences or interpretations please. Just...does the Buddha say this? Thanks, TG #83047 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/22/2008 4:12:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: What do you understand as Nibbana dhatu and asankhata dhatu (not included in the group of 18)? Does sankhata dhatu include the 18 dhatus? Tep ....................................................... Hi Tep I understand Nibbana as overwhelmingly presented in the Suttas as the end of feeling, perception, consciousness. Quotes.... “By the utter destruction of delight in existence, By the extinction of perception and consciousness, By the cessation and appeasement of feelings, It is thus, friend, that I know for beings – Emancipation, release, seclusion.â€? (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the B, vol. 1, pg. 90) The Buddha describes the “death resultâ€? of an enlightened (arahat) monk, Ven.Dabba Mallaputta… The body disintegrated, perception ceased, All feelings became cool, Mental activities were calmed, And consciousness came to an end. (The Buddha . . . The Udana & The Itivuttaka, pg. 116, 8.9) I have a hard time thinking of "the unconditioned" as an element. The unconditioned could be a "non-element" perhaps. Sankhata Dhatu? Conditioned elements? I'm not sure I understand the question. TG #83048 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/22/2008 3:01:30 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi TG and Tep, Op 22-feb-2008, om 1:52 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Impermanence of any sankhata dhamma is caused > by impermanent conditions that come together. ... > > AN 3.47 (Sankhata Sutta) > "Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is > fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is > discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) of what stays is > discernible. ------- N: Yes, Tep gives the right explanation and sutta quote. When conditioning factors are combined it causes the arising of a certain dhamma. Sankhaara is literally: doing together, putting together. When there is arising at a certain moment, it shows that that dhamma was not there from all eternity. It was not there at first, thus it is not eternal or permanent. The combination of different factors that condition the arising of that dhamma cannot stay forever, these have to go. Evenso that conditioned dhamma, it cannot stay. Nina. ............................ Hi Nina, Anyone Why do they "have to go"? What is the actual reason? TG #83049 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/22/2008 12:46:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Nina, Anyone Why do they "have to go"? What is the actual reason? TG =================================== When one gets down to the base level, what more reason can be given? It is simply the way things are: Whatever arises, ceases. Annica's simply a fundamental fact of nature. The basis for a dhamma arising is the arising of all the conditions requisite for it. But the only condition requisite for its cessation is its having arisen, it seems to me. With metta, Howard #83050 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani nilovg Hi Tep and Howard, Op 22-feb-2008, om 18:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > So I will leave it to Nina and/or other participants to > decide. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The control is certainly hers. I still have a right to offer > suggestions, though, I presume. --------- N: I think Tep is an excellent moderator, resuming others' questions and encouraging people. The control is not mine; anyway, I do not like control, Howard. You know ;-)) If the speed is slow we will better keep up with this study corner. Nina. #83051 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. nilovg Hi TG, Op 22-feb-2008, om 18:46 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > The combination of different factors > that condition the arising of that dhamma cannot stay forever, these > have to go. Evenso that conditioned dhamma, it cannot stay. > Nina. > > ............................ > > > Hi Nina, Anyone > > > Why do they "have to go"? What is the actual reason? ------ N: perhaps an example may help. Colour, eyesense and other conditions are necessary for the arising of seeing. Colour impinges on the eyesense just for a short moment. Moreover, kamma produces seeing. Also, seeing follows upon the preceding citta: the eye-door adverting- consciousness. The coming together of all these factors is an amazing thing. It just happens for a very short moment of seeing. Once kamma has produced seeing it does not produce it again. Colour does not keep on impinging on the eyesense, they both have to fall away. Seeing is only one citta in the series of cittas. Later on there can be seeing again, but it is never the same. These are a few thoughts that make it more understandable that dhammas have to go. Nina. #83052 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 4. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 22-feb-2008, om 15:47 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > But, > as I read the Buddha, far more intentional activity is required, > including > cultivating calm through sila, guarding the senses, and meditation, > and > cultivating wisdom through investigation of dhammas at ordinary > times and in > meditation. ------ N: Through listening we also learn more about siila, because without listening we do not even know that guarding the senses is siila. While listening, there is bhaavana. Call it meditation if you like, I prefer bhaavanaa. As you know, I do not see special times and ordinary times. There is a sutta about auspicious times for kusala: morning, afternoon, evening. No limitation. Thus, what is it now? Auspicious time for kusala or not? Nina. #83053 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/22/2008 1:59:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Tep and Howard, Op 22-feb-2008, om 18:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > So I will leave it to Nina and/or other participants to > decide. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The control is certainly hers. I still have a right to offer > suggestions, though, I presume. --------- N: I think Tep is an excellent moderator, resuming others' questions and encouraging people. The control is not mine; anyway, I do not like control, Howard. You know ;-)) --------------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! I purposely phrased it that way, Nina. ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- If the speed is slow we will better keep up with this study corner. Nina. ========================= With warm metta, Howard #83054 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 22-feb-2008, om 14:22 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > H: I would guess that the operation of vedana, as an object of > > consciousness, is felt as neither pleasant nor unpleasant, which is > > why it isn't an > > object of clinging (if that, indeed, is so). > ------- > N: Here I do not follow you: the operation of feeling. Is it not > known what type of feeling operates? > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Here I don't follow *you*. Vedana is a mental operation that > affectively > "tastes" objects. It is the operation that is the cetasika, and I > take the > question of whether we cling to vedana or not as the question of > whether we > cling to that cetasika. > There is no dispute that we cling to an object (positively) that is > typically tasted as pleasant and we cling to an object (negatively > - obsessing > about it, etc) that is typically tasted negatively. But clinging to > an object > on the basis of how it is affectively felt is a different matter > from clinging > to the cetasika vedana itself. ------- N: I see it differently. I quote from Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 125:The Tiika states that it is said that it is felt, with reference to its mode of experiencing. Its nature should be characterized as being felt. First the passive is used: it is felt, in Pali: vedayita. What is felt is feeling. Then the Vis. refers to M.N. I, 43, which is a dialogue between Maha- Ko.t.thita and Saariputta. Saariputtaa explains: it feels, it feels, friend, that is why it is called feeling. In the text, after the passive, the active form (which the translator did not render) is used: vedayati vedayatiiti, it feels, it feels. It feels, but in Pali no article is used here. There is merely the declination of the verb, to feel, in the third person singular. There is no subject, no person who feels. Thus, feeling is what is felt and it can also be said that it feels. ------- N: I would not separate feeing and its operation. And see: it is felt, and also: it feels. --------- The Tiika states: The explanation of the action should be understood as follows: there is no doer apart from the dhamma with its own characteristic (Sabhaavadhammato a~n~no kattaa natthiiti dassanattha.m kattuniddeso). As to the word therefore (tasmaa), this gives the definition of feeling, according to the Tiika. It explains: feeling experiences the flavour of the object according as this is the condition (for the experience), therefore it is called feeling (yathaapaccaya.m aaramma.narasa.m anubhavati, tasmaa vedanaati vuccatiiti). N: Why is the passive form used first in the text? This will be clearer when we consider the different kinds of feeling: pleasant, unpleasant and indifferent feeling. For example, when pleasant feeling arises, its pleasantness is felt. The Commentary to the sutta, referred to above, explains about feelings, that a following pleasant feeling experiences as object the flavour of the preceding pleasant feeling, and the same for unpleasant feeling and neutral feeling. It states: -------- We can cling to any dhamma or concept, only the lokuttara dhammas cannot be objects of clinging. Nina. #83055 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and TG) - In a message dated 2/22/2008 2:09:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi TG, Op 22-feb-2008, om 18:46 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > The combination of different factors > that condition the arising of that dhamma cannot stay forever, these > have to go. Evenso that conditioned dhamma, it cannot stay. > Nina. > > ............................ > > > Hi Nina, Anyone > > > Why do they "have to go"? What is the actual reason? ------ N: perhaps an example may help. Colour, eyesense and other conditions are necessary for the arising of seeing. Colour impinges on the eyesense just for a short moment. Moreover, kamma produces seeing. Also, seeing follows upon the preceding citta: the eye-door adverting- consciousness. The coming together of all these factors is an amazing thing. It just happens for a very short moment of seeing. Once kamma has produced seeing it does not produce it again. Colour does not keep on impinging on the eyesense, they both have to fall away. Seeing is only one citta in the series of cittas. Later on there can be seeing again, but it is never the same. These are a few thoughts that make it more understandable that dhammas have to go. Nina. ============================ As I see it, Nina, whether the duration is brief or not so brief, the issue is once "colour, eyesense and other conditions ... necessary for the arising of seeing" have arisen, why does not the dhamma just continue indefinitely. My answer is that there is no further "reason" to be given except that it is the nature of all conditioned phenomena, that whatever has arisen will cease. When my boys used to ask "Why is A so?" we would answer "Because B is so". But then they'd ask why B is so! And by the time they got to questioning, M or N, we would then just answer "Because!" or, if we were in a more generous mood, "Because that's the way it is!" Well, the lakkhana of anicca is Z, and it is so because it is so. With metta, Howard #83056 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 4. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/22/2008 2:16:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 22-feb-2008, om 15:47 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > But, > as I read the Buddha, far more intentional activity is required, > including > cultivating calm through sila, guarding the senses, and meditation, > and > cultivating wisdom through investigation of dhammas at ordinary > times and in > meditation. ------ N: Through listening we also learn more about siila, because without listening we do not even know that guarding the senses is siila. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, indeed! No doubt about that! It's a good thing we choose to listen! :-) ------------------------------------------------- While listening, there is bhaavana. Call it meditation if you like, I prefer bhaavanaa. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I would NOT call it meditation, because it is not. There is good effect from listening and considering, but meditation is a specific activity. To call that meditation is to abuse the language, and to be *very* misleading. ---------------------------------------------- As you know, I do not see special times and ordinary times. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Different occasions differ in nature. When skating one isn't meditating or reading a book or sending messages to DSG. And different occasions have differing consequences. You have admitted that the Buddha taught specific intentional actions to engage in to cultivate jhanas. When doing so, those are special times. --------------------------------------------- There is a sutta about auspicious times for kusala: morning, afternoon, evening. No limitation. Thus, what is it now? Auspicious time for kusala or not? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, auspicious, right now. There are roots of trees, Nina! Carpe diem! ---------------------------------------------- Nina. ====================== With metta, Howard #83057 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/22/2008 2:30:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 22-feb-2008, om 14:22 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > H: I would guess that the operation of vedana, as an object of > > consciousness, is felt as neither pleasant nor unpleasant, which is > > why it isn't an > > object of clinging (if that, indeed, is so). > ------- > N: Here I do not follow you: the operation of feeling. Is it not > known what type of feeling operates? > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Here I don't follow *you*. Vedana is a mental operation that > affectively > "tastes" objects. It is the operation that is the cetasika, and I > take the > question of whether we cling to vedana or not as the question of > whether we > cling to that cetasika. > There is no dispute that we cling to an object (positively) that is > typically tasted as pleasant and we cling to an object (negatively > - obsessing > about it, etc) that is typically tasted negatively. But clinging to > an object > on the basis of how it is affectively felt is a different matter > from clinging > to the cetasika vedana itself. ------- N: I see it differently. I quote from Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 125:The Tiika states that it is said that it is felt, with reference to its mode of experiencing. Its nature should be characterized as being felt. First the passive is used: it is felt, in Pali: vedayita. What is felt is feeling. Then the Vis. refers to M.N. I, 43, which is a dialogue between Maha- Ko.t.thita and Saariputta. Saariputtaa explains: it feels, it feels, friend, that is why it is called feeling. In the text, after the passive, the active form (which the translator did not render) is used: vedayati vedayatiiti, it feels, it feels. It feels, but in Pali no article is used here. There is merely the declination of the verb, to feel, in the third person singular. There is no subject, no person who feels. Thus, feeling is what is felt and it can also be said that it feels. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, that is how I used to think about this as well - that there were mental phenomena called "feelings" that we were conscious of, and that 'feeling' meant experiencing a mental object called a feeling, but I was disabused of this right here on DSG!!! I was told, and it made sense to me, that feeling is an evaluative operation that experiences an object *as* pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, and that mode of experiencing the object is exactly what a feeling is. So, I was told that we don't feel feelings (as I had thought); we feel objects! When we get into a warm, comfortable bath, we don't feel some thing called pleasant feeling; we feel the warmth as pleasant! ------------------------------------------------------ ------- N: I would not separate feeing and its operation. And see: it is felt, and also: it feels. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Hmm! this almost sounds like you're teaching nonduality, Nina! Soon you'll be a Mahayanist! ;-)) Actually, I do know what you mean: Feeling something as pleasant is the reality of "having a pleasant feeling". ------------------------------------------------------ --------- The Tiika states: The explanation of the action should be understood as follows: there is no doer apart from the dhamma with its own characteristic (Sabhaavadhammato a~n~no kattaa natthiiti dassanattha.m kattuniddeso). As to the word therefore (tasmaa), this gives the definition of feeling, according to the Tiika. It explains: feeling experiences the flavour of the object according as this is the condition (for the experience), therefore it is called feeling (yathaapaccaya.m aaramma.narasa.m anubhavati, tasmaa vedanaati vuccatiiti). ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, hmm. No problem with that. ----------------------------------------------- N: Why is the passive form used first in the text? This will be clearer when we consider the different kinds of feeling: pleasant, unpleasant and indifferent feeling. For example, when pleasant feeling arises, its pleasantness is felt. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not enamored of that wording. Speaking of pleasant feeling arising and feeling it's pleasantness is not how I see it. What happens is that feeling of an object as pleasant occurs, and that experience is what we *call* feeling pleasantness. To speak of feeling pleasantness is a conventional way of saying that we experience a phenomenon as pleasant. ---------------------------------------------------- The Commentary to the sutta, referred to above, explains about feelings, that a following pleasant feeling experiences as object the flavour of the preceding pleasant feeling, and the same for unpleasant feeling and neutral feeling. It states: ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: That is a recollection of the earlier pleasant feeling, feeling it again in the same way. ----------------------------------------------------- -------- We can cling to any dhamma or concept, only the lokuttara dhammas cannot be objects of clinging. Nina. =========================== with mettsa, Howard #83058 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Howard and Nina, Howard: "What of the expression "The five aggregates of (or beset by) clinging"? In an arahant, this is an empty set, but in worldlings I don't understand this expression to make any particular exclusions." Larry: Good point. I think we need commentarial clarification why Vism. said clinging to objects of 5-doors and didn't include the sixth. Larry #83059 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. hantun1 Dear Howard and All Dear Friends, Thanks to the cetanaa and well-wishes of dear friends, my infection and hiccups are gone, but I am still reeling under the effects of very potent antibiotics. I am very weak and lethargic. I cannot read or write for long time. But your one sentence caught my attention. In # 83049, you wrote: The basis for a dhamma arising is the arising of all the conditions requisite for it. But the only condition requisite for its cessation is its having arisen, it seems to me. To me, it is very true, Howard. I am going to die in another 3 or 4 years (that is if my kamma permits me that much), and the only requisite condition for my death will be for having born! Respectfully, Han #83060 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Hi Howard & Nina - I would like to reply to you both in order to save time. Howard(#83045): We've done two paragraphs, and I have no further questions on them. I'm certainly ready to go on. (As for my saying whether or not to proceed, I don't want that role. I'm one of many. Generally, when it seems that questioning has dwindled I would guess it's time to move on.) The control is certainly hers. I still have a right to offer suggestions, though, I presume. T: Good. we'll move on to the next discussion tomorrow. Yes, you have the right to suggest anything you wish. ................... Nina(#83050): I think Tep is an excellent moderator, ... The control is not mine; anyway, I do not like control, Howard. You know ;-)) If the speed is slow we will better keep up with this study corner. T: Thank you for the nice thought, but I am just a co-ordinator. Yes, Nina, we shall move on slowly and surely. And that's the only way I can "keep up with" difficult questions from Howard! :-) Thank you both. Tep === #83061 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. dhammanusara Dear Han, - I am happy to know that some of the illness troubles have gone. > Han: > Thanks to the cetanaa and well-wishes of dear friends, > my infection and hiccups are gone, but I am still > reeling under the effects of very potent antibiotics. > I am very weak and lethargic. I cannot read or write > for long time. T: The side effects sound pretty bad, so please rest more. I know you are a doctor, so I am not going to suggest how you should take care of yourself -- such as, drinking a lot of water! :-) .................. > Han: > To me, it is very true, Howard. I am going to die in > another 3 or 4 years (that is if my kamma permits me > that much), and the only requisite condition for my > death will be for having born! > T: You reminded me of my deceased mother. At the age of 85 she said the same thing you did. She ended up living and enjoying it until the wonderful age of 99. So, you wouldn't know exactly when you will be gone. I might even go first. Cheer up ! Tep === #83062 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. hantun1 Dear Friend and Dhamma Brother Tep, > Tep: You reminded me of my deceased mother. At the age of 85 she said the same thing you did. She ended up living and enjoying it until the wonderful age of 99. So, you wouldn't know exactly when you will be gone. I might even go first. Cheer up ! Han: Thank you very much for your kind words, encouragements, and best wishes. Respectfully, Han #83063 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:17 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. Dhatu dhammanusara Hi TG (Nina), - It was very kind of you to send me a few quotes from the Connected Discourses and Itivuttaka. At parinibbana the body disintegrates, perception ceases, all feelings become cool, mental activities are calmed, and consciousness comes to an end. Question: What is the difference between the death of a putthujana and parinibbana above? ....................... I asked : What do you understand as Nibbana dhatu and asankhata dhatu (not included in the group of 18)? Does sankhata dhatu include the 18 dhatus? And you replied: I have a hard time thinking of "the unconditioned" as an element. The unconditioned could be a "non-element" perhaps. Sankhata Dhatu? Conditioned elements? I'm not sure I understand the question. ...................... T: Sorry for the confusion that I have made. Let me try a little more. However, the more I try the more errors I will make. ;-)) The term 'dhatu' subsumes all dhammas : sankhata dhamma and asankhata dhamma. Therefore, I believe the dhatu principle applies to other beings besides humans, since they all are sankhata dhammas. Now we know that the Buddha defined the 18 dhatus only for sankhata dhammas, and asankhata dhatu for Nibbana -- as shown in the Abhidhamma-pitaka. The beings that 'come to be' are therefore made of conditioned elements(sankhata dhatus). So they must be defined by the nama and rupa that are represented by the following 18 dhatus (from the online Nyanatiloka Dictionary). 1. visual organ (eye) 2. auditory organ (ear) 3. olfactory organ (nose) 4. gustatory organ (tongue) 5. tactile organ (body) 6. visible object 7. sound or audible object 8. odour or olfactive object 9. gustative object 10. body-impression 11. eye-consciousness 12. ear-consciousness 13. nose-consciousness 14. tongue-consciousness 15. body-consciousness 16. mind-element 17. mind-object(mano-dhaatu) (dhamma-dhaatu). T: I think the term 'object' above refers to ruupa and 'body' means kaya. But I can possibly be wrong since I am no Abhidhammika. ;-)) Tep === #83064 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. dhammanusara Dear Han, - You replied promptly ! > Han: Thank you very much for your kind words, > encouragements, and best wishes. > T: You're very welcome, my dear Friend & brother. Tep === #83065 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:43 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. Dhatu dhammanusara Hi TG (Nina and others), - The dhatu # 18 was missing from the earlier post. I am sorry. Here it is : 18. mind-consciousness-element (mano-viññaana-dhaatu) Tep === #83066 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:11 pm Subject: Patthaana (8) hantun1 Dear All, We will today start with the first condition: (1). Root condition (hetu-paccaya). I read in my reference book: 1. Hetupaccaya Hetupaccayoti Hetuu hetusampayuttakaanam dhammaanam tamsamutthaanaana~nca ruupaanam hetupaccayena paccayo. The roots are related to the states which are associated with roots, and the matter produced thereby, by root condition. Explanation: Root Condition – Just like the roots of a tree assist in the growth and development of the trunk and its branches, so are the six hetu conditions (lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha). ------------------------- I read A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma: The Root condition belongs to Group B. Mind for Mind-and-Matter. It is a condition where a conditioning state functions like a root by imparting firmness and fixity to the conditioned states. The conditioning states in this relation are the six mental factors known as roots: the three unwholesome roots – greed (lobha), hatred (dosa), and delusion (moha); and the three beautiful roots – non-greed (alobha), non-hatred (adosa), and non-delusion (amoha) – which may be either wholesome or indeterminate. The conditioned states are the mental states associated with each root and the conascent material phenomena. Conascent material phenomena are those born of kamma at the moment of rebirth-linking, and those born of consciousness during the course of existence. Just as the roots of a tree are the basis for a tree’s existence, growth, and stability, so these roots give rise to the conditioned states and make them firm and steady. ------------------------ I read Nina’s book: *All sobhana cittas have to be rooted in alobha and adosa and they may or may not be rooted in amoha or pa~n~naa as well. Of the eight types of mahaa-kusala cittas (kusala cittas of the sense-sphere), the eight types of mahaa-vipaakacittas, and the eight types or mahaa-kiriyacittas (of the arahat), four types out of the eight are accompanied by pa~n~naa and four types are not accompanied by pa~n~naa, thus, accompanied by two sobhana hetus. *People who develop samatha, tranquil meditation, may have accumulated skill for the attainment of jhaana, absorption. When there are the right conditions jhaanacittas arise. There are jhaanacittas of different stages of ruupa-jhaana, material jhaana, and aruupa-jhaana, immaterial jhaana. The ruupa-jhaanacittas (ruupaavacara cittas) and the aruupa-jhaanacittas (aruupaavacara cittas) always have three hetus, because there cannot be absorption without pa~n~naa. * Through the development of insight, vipassanaa, right understanding of realities gradually grows and when understanding has been developed to the degree that enlightenment can be attained, lokuttara cittas which experience nibbaana arise. Lokuttara cittas always have three hetus because they are accompanied by pa~n~naa which is lokuttara. ----------------------- These are just preliminary considerations of the Root condition. We will have ample opportunity to discuss on each root. At the moment, any comments and contributions on a general dimension of the Root condition are most welcome. Metta, Han #83067 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:19 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > Question: What are, in you opinion, the speculative views > > about 'ultimate reality', and why? I ask this question because I am > > interested to know your thought about these views. Do not answer this > > question if you don't feel comfortable for any reason. But if you > > have time and patience (more than Howard and Han Tun have) then > > please do answer it for me. I shall be glad if you do. > > James: This would take some time. I will put it on the back burner > and get to it when time allows. > James: Getting back to this question. There is a significant difference between ontology and epistemology. Allow me to define the two (from dictionary.com): ontology 1. A systematic account of Existence. 2. (From philosophy) An explicit formal specification of how to represent the objects, concepts and other entities that are assumed to exist in some area of interest and the relationships that hold among them. epistemology [(i-pis-tuh-mol-uh-jee)]The branch of philosophy concerned with the nature and origin of knowledge. Epistemology asks the question "How do we know what we know?" James: The Abhidhamma is an ontology of existence. It speaks of "ultimate reality" and offers a definition of ultimate reality in terms of the Dhamma Theory: nama, rupa, and nibbana. However, the Buddha didn't teach an ontology, the Buddha taught an epistemology. The Four Noble Truths are an epistemology: from ignorance and craving comes suffering. When the Buddha stated that he teaches only suffering and the ending of suffering he was stating that he only teaches an epistemology- moving the mind from ignorance to knowledge. He was not trying to explain existence or the intricate workings of the universe. Take for example this teaching of the Buddha, which could be mistaken for ontology but is actually epistemology: Dwelling at Savatthi. There the Blessed One addressed the monks: "I will teach you the origination of the world & the ending of the world. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded to the Blessed One. The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.044.than.html James: "The World" according to the Buddha is dependent on perception and consciousness. Nowhere in the suttas does the Buddha attempt to explain the world separate from experience. However, the Abhidhamma attempts to do just that. The Abhidhamma doesn't explain "The World", the Abhidhamma explains "Ultimate Reality". The Abhidhamma even goes so far as to explain rupa in terms separate from nama (i.e. unobserved rupa, suffering rupa, etc.), which is an impossibility from the Buddhist standpoint. Additionally, the Buddha taught the five khandas not as a means of explaining existence but as a means of explaining experience. The Buddha didn't say "a person is the five khandas". The Buddha said that what we take for "self" can be seen in terms of the five khandas (the five clinging aggregates). This is a very big difference! Tep, I could go on but I will leave it at that and see if you follow me up to this point or if you have any comments/questions. Metta, James #83068 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:54 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (90) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) In the morning before Pukkusaati went to stay in the potter’s workshop, the Buddha investigated the world and saw the son of a prominent family, Pukkusaati. He considered, ‘This son of a prominent family left his kingdom as soon as he had read the official letter that his friend sent him. He went forth and dedicated himself specifically to me, and he travelled all of the hundred and twentyone leagues to the city of Raajagaha. If I do not go there he will not realize the fruits of a recluse (he will not realize the four noble Truths); he will not realize the three fruits of a recluse, that is, he will not attain the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner (anaagaamí). He will die without any refuge after he has dwelt there just for one night. When I have gone there he will realize the three fruits of a recluse. Since I have developed all the perfections during four incalculable periods and a hundred thousand aeons only for the benefit and support of people, I shall help the son of a prominent family, Pukkusaati.’ In the early morning the Buddha saw to his bodily needs and surrounded by bhikkhus he went on his almsround in the city of Saavatthí. After he had received almsfood he returned from his almsround and entered his fragrant chamber. He paused after the exertion of walking just for a moment and he did not say anything to the elderly monks. The Venerable Saariputta, the venerable Moggallaana and other monks were present. The Lord took his bowl and robe and went out alone. While on his way, he did not fly through the air nor did he make the stretch he walked shorter [1]. He considered again: ‘That son of a prominent family has shame and awe for me, he does not even sit in a vehicle, on an elephant, horse, chariot or golden palaquin, etc. and finally, he does not even use one layer of footwear, nor does he carry a sunshade. Therefore, I should walk afoot.’ Thus, the Buddha travelled just by walking. The Buddha hid the splendour of his Buddhahood: his eighty minor attributes, his halo of two yards and the thirtytwo characteristics of a Great Man [2]. He travelled in the guise of an ordinary bhikkhu, as the full moon which is hidden by a misty cloud. In less than one day (after the meal), he walked fortyfive leagues and reached at sundown the workshop of that potter. When the Buddha walked in this way he did not intimidate people, saying, ‘I am the Sammaasambuddha.’ Thus, he just went to the potter’s workshop and stood at the gate. In order to give the son of a prominent family an opportunity [3], he said: ‘Bhikkhu, if it is not inconvenient to you, I would like to lodge in this dwelling for just one night.’ Pukkusaati answered: ‘Spacious, friend, is the potter’s dwelling; stay, friend, according to your pleasure.’ The Lord of the World who was of a most delicate constitution had left his fragrant Chamber which is like a divine dwelling, he spread out a covering of grass in the potter’s workshop, where ashes were scattered all over the place, which was dirty because of broken ustensils, dry grass and so on and which was like a heap of garbage. He spread out his ragrobe and sat down as if he had entered his fragrant chamber with a divine odour, just as if it was a divine dwelling. Thus he sat down.” Note [1] By supernatural powers. Note [2] These are specific bodily features of a Buddha. Note [3] An opportunity to share his residence with the Buddha. To be continued. Metta, Han #83069 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi TG > For example, does the Buddha ever say -- [ to see something as it really > is, is to see it as an element, etc. ] ? No inferences or interpretations > please. Just...does the Buddha say this? I think if we were to limit our discussion to exact quotes from the suttas, without any further 'interpretation', we would not get very far at all. The suttas were pitched at a level that we today are unable to make much sense of without the assistance of the ancient commentators and/or the Abhidhamma. As regards the frequent mention in the suttas of khandhas, dhatus and ayatanas, I'd be interested to know what you see as the significance of these, if not as aspects of dhammas to be directly known by insight. Jon #83070 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. TGrand458@... Hi Jon, All, In a message dated 2/22/2008 10:57:10 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > For example, does the Buddha ever say -- [ to see something as it really > is, is to see it as an element, etc. ] ? No inferences or interpretations > please. Just...does the Buddha say this? I think if we were to limit our discussion to exact quotes from the suttas, without any further 'interpretation'suttas, without any further far at all. The suttas were pitched at a level that we today are unable to make much sense of without the assistance of the ancient commentators and/or the Abhidhamma. As regards the frequent mention in the suttas of khandhas, dhatus and ayatanas, I'd be interested to know what you see as the significance of these, if not as aspects of dhammas to be directly known by insight. Jon ..................................... NEW TG: This doesn't answer my question but I take it as a NO. Anyone can interpret the teachings to be saying anything they want. The point so often stressed in this group is -- that the Buddha's aim of his teaching is to see the elements, khandas, etc as realities with their own characteristics. Well, with about 5,000 pages of original recorded material attributed to the Buddha, it seems weird that he wouldn't have mentioned this once if that was indeed his aim...or that Ananda would have thought this something to ignore. Unlikely. He does directly say, however, that he wants us to see things "as they really are" as impermanent, afflicting, and nonself. In addition, he say things like the khandas should be seen as insubstantial as -- Bubbles, mirages, coreless (plantian trees), a conjurer's trick, as alien, as a thorn, as a barb, as a disease, etc. Yes, he did manage to say this directly. Now, are the elements and khandas the factors that THESE TRUTHS (above) are to be discovered from? Yes. BUT THE TRUTH IS -- that the elements and khandas are not things "with their own characteristics," but the opposite...that these are things "without their own characteristics"...hence the Buddha does describe them as to be seen as -- alien, nonself, conditioned, mirage, tricks, empty, etc. NOT a "reality" in the bunch. TG #83071 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 22-feb-2008, om 20:36 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > My answer is that there is no further "reason" to be given except > that it > is the nature of all conditioned phenomena, that whatever has > arisen will > cease. ----- N: Our good friend TG may not be satisfied with this answer, so I think of a few examples. Nina. #83072 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:06 am Subject: Colour or visible object? Does it matter? E-card from Banbgkok 6 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Some very lively discussion, especially the parts below on the Vinaya and giving and also on colour/visible object. A full room with the 'regulars' plus Azita and ourselves. Azita's now off to Saudi Arabia to visit her daughter there. Buddhanussati, dhammanussati - for anyone? Now? Sakkaayaabhirato (delighted with sakkaya) as discussed by Scott and others (#82086 etc). Delighted with the 5 khandhas, thus the round of rebirths. Delighted with wrong view and attachment, like now in daily life. Wrong view, silabbataparamasa conditioning attachment as discussed during the week. Who can know the past conditions. What's the use of speculating about the bodhisatta or anything which cannot be known now? Understanding the latent tendency, habits conditioned by past wrong views? Lots of thinking only, unless understanding the reality now. Pariyatti - leading to understanding of dhammas appearing now. Thinking with understanding. Vinaya - useful for us all to consider more... Sila - manner of speech and deed, since these follow cittas. Carita sila (which is followed or done) or virati (abstention). Degrees of sila. Vinaya - different kinds inc. more refined sila. Also higher sila, sila of the ordinary person and sotapanna different. Bhikkhu - both meanings to be considered- a) the ordained bhikkhu and b) the one following the teachings. Vinaya and giving. Giving to a bad monk vs to a poor person or beggar. Just the citta that counts? Dosa or metta when asked for something inapppropriate? Can we say 'no' with understanding? AN, 6s 6 kinds of escape, BB's translation discussed. Wrong ideas of 'escape'. Being 'grengjai' [Thai word meaning shy to ask or cause trouble, reluctant to impose] - kusala or akusala? Can be either. Kusala when not wishing to disturb others or cause any trouble. Akusala when thinking of oneself, feeling shy...] Colour or visible object that is seen? This followed from a somewhat heated discussion a couple of weeks ago between Rob K, Ivan and others, apparently. It hadn't been resolved, so came up for more lively discussion:). What about when dark - still seeing, still object of seeing, but no colours appearing. They are not synonyms. In the end, if there's right understanding of what appears, we can use any term for anything! More discussion (brought up by A.Sujin) on asking forgiveness to the Triple Gem, apologies or admitting wrong-doing, resolving not to do the same again out of respect to the Triple Gem. Pukkusati's conversation with the Buddha (when he didn't recognise the Buddha) and other suttas discussed in this context. Anything of special interest, Robert, Jon, Sukin or Azita? We're very grateful to everyone for all the kindness and support we've received at the Foundation and look forward to visiting again in April with Nina and friends. Metta, Sarah ========= #83073 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi TG > Now, are the elements and khandas the factors that THESE TRUTHS (above) are > to be discovered from? Yes. Good to have agreement on this fundamental point ;-)) > BUT THE TRUTH IS -- that the elements and > khandas are not things "with their own characteristics," but the opposite...that > these are things "without their own characteristics"...hence the Buddha does > describe them as to be seen as -- alien, nonself, conditioned, mirage, tricks, > empty, etc. NOT a "reality" in the bunch. First, I certainly wouldn't expect to find "reality" included in the list of "nonself, conditioned, mirage, tricks" etc. Let me explain why. Elements, khandhas and dhammas are synonyms for those "things" to which the description or simile of "nonself, conditioned, mirage, tricks" applies. And "realities" is a translation of "dhammas". So it is "realities" that are being described. Secondly, as regards the general question of dhammas and characteristics: - each dhamma has a 'signature' characteristic by which it is distinguished from all other dhammas; - all dhammas have in common the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta; - the fact that dhammas are said to be insubstantial, being likened to a mirage, a coreless plantain tree, etc, has to be understood in the context of this being said about things that have the (unalterable) characteristics described above; there is no contradiction between being an ultimate reality/dhamma in that sense and being insubstantial (and hence not worth grasping at) in the sense of having only the most fleeting of presences. Jon #83074 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:04 am Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... truth_aerator Hi James and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > James: Getting back to this question. There is a significant > difference between ontology and epistemology. Oh yes. > >> > James: The Abhidhamma is an ontology of existence. It speaks of > "ultimate reality" and offers a definition of ultimate reality in > terms of the Dhamma Theory: nama, rupa, and nibbana. However, the > Buddha didn't teach an ontology, the Buddha taught an epistemology. > The Four Noble Truths are an epistemology: from ignorance and craving > comes suffering. >> This is so true. I'd like to add---> " Entrenched in name & form,they conceive that 'This is true.' In whatever terms they conceive it it turns into something other than that, and that's what's false about it: changing, it's deceptive by nature. Undeceptive by nature is Unbinding: that the noble ones know as true. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.12.than.html Only the Nibbana is "the Ultimate". Every other component of existence is deceptive... Furthermore, considering that EVERY THING and EVERY RELATION (condition) is conditioned->anicca->dukkha- >anatta, what use is it to write prolix, pretentious, pompous and elaborate scholastic works full of long winded protracted showy verbosity? Lots of Metta, Alex #83075 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:08 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, The Commentary to the “Discourse on the Manifold Elements” explains that foolish people cling to rank, they want to obtain a high position in society. The monk wants to escape danger and leaves the home life. However, also monks have defilements, they may quarrel, such as the monks in Kosambi. We read in the Commentary that for those who consider this Dhamma Discourse, all these elements appear clearly, just as the reflection of his face clearly appears to someone using a mirror. Therefore, the Buddha said to Ånanda that this Discourse could also be remembered as the “Mirror of Dhamma”. We have many defilements and we are troubled by many kinds of contrarieties in our life. We think of other persons who treat us in a disagreeable way. However, we can learn that, in the ultimate sense, there is not “me”, not the other person, but that there are only elements or dhammas. Dhammas can appear as clearly as the reflection in a mirror. We read in the Commentary that someone who learns to develop vipassanå will overcome defilements and eradicates them completely when he becomes an arahat, just as a soldier who conquers in a battle. Therefore, the Buddha also called this sutta the “Drum of the Deathless”. The Deathless is nibbåna, the arahat has reached the end of birth and death. This sutta refers to the development of insight: one becomes skilled in the elements through insight. We read in the Commentary that vipassanå is compared to munition used in a battle. By means of this munition one can overcome all defilements. The Buddha also called this Discourse the “Incomparable Victory in the Battle.” This Discourse can remind us that we have to be courageous in the development of insight so that we eventually reach the goal. The objects of insight are all the elements as explained in this sutta. These elements appear all day through the six doorways. Visible object impinges at this moment on the eyesense so that seeing can arise. If there were no citta, visible object could not appear. We may believe that we see a person, but we cannot see a person, we can only think of him. Thinking is another element. Buddhaghosa states page after page that the truth about the khandhas, the dhåtus (elements), the åyatanas (sense-fields) is taught by the Buddha. Buddhaghosa repeats that vipassanå is to be developed of the khandhas, the dhåtus, the åyatanas. In this way he reminds us to be aware of them now, since they pertain to daily life. Buddhaghosa stresses that the Buddha taught our being in the cycle, va.t.ta, and being released from the cycle, viva.t.ta. We are in the cycle now, we are subject to dukkha. ****** Nina. #83076 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and TG) - In a message dated 2/23/2008 8:37:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi TG > Now, are the elements and khandas the factors that THESE TRUTHS (above) are > to be discovered from? Yes. Good to have agreement on this fundamental point ;-)) > BUT THE TRUTH IS -- that the elements and > khandas are not things "with their own characteristics," but the opposite...that > these are things "without their own characteristics"...hence the Buddha does > describe them as to be seen as -- alien, nonself, conditioned, mirage, tricks, > empty, etc. NOT a "reality" in the bunch. First, I certainly wouldn't expect to find "reality" included in the list of "nonself, conditioned, mirage, tricks" etc. Let me explain why. Elements, khandhas and dhammas are synonyms for those "things" to which the description or simile of "nonself, conditioned, mirage, tricks" applies. And "realities" is a translation of "dhammas". So it is "realities" that are being described. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: 'Realities' is a BAD translation of 'dhammas'. It suggests substantiality, self-exstence, and the very opposite of su~n~nata. A far better translation would be 'phenomena'. ---------------------------------------------------- Secondly, as regards the general question of dhammas and characteristics: - each dhamma has a 'signature' characteristic by which it is distinguished from all other dhammas; ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: In the case of rupas, I think it better to say that each *is* a quality rather than *has* a quality. As for namas that are mental operations like mindfulness, anger, feeling, recognition, and so on, I would suppose that they are phenomena that have several qualities in fact. Anger, for example, has the properties of resisting, pushing away, creating upset, impairing clarity of perception, being energizing, and so on. (Some namas, on the other hand, such as being concentrated, or fearing, or being confused, seem to be like rupas [just] in that, each, instead of being a mental operation with multiple qualities is, itself, a single mental quality.) -------------------------------------------------------- - all dhammas have in common the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta; - the fact that dhammas are said to be insubstantial, being likened to a mirage, a coreless plantain tree, etc, has to be understood in the context of this being said about things that have the (unalterable) characteristics described above; there is no contradiction between being an ultimate reality/dhamma in that sense and being insubstantial (and hence not worth grasping at) in the sense of having only the most fleeting of presences. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is a connotational conflict. ---------------------------------------------------------- Jon ========================== With metta, Howard #83077 From: "connie" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:30 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 51 16. Mahaanipaato Conclusion Pa.tipadaadivibhaagena catubbidhaa. They are of four types through the types of progress, etc. (pa.tipadaa-di).* *Difficult progress and sluggish direct knowledge, difficult progress and swift direct knowledge, easy progress and sluggish direct knowledge, easy progress and swift direct knowledge (enumerated at Th-a III 207f). Indriyaadhikavibhaagena pa~ncavidhaa. Tathaa pa.tipattiyaadivibhaagena pa~ncavidhaa. Animittavimuttaadivasena chabbidhaa. Adhimuttibhedena sattavidhaa. Dhurapa.tipadaadivibhaagena a.t.thavidhaa. Vimuttivibhaagena navavidhaa dasavidhaa ca. Taa panetaa yathaavuttena dhurabhedena vibhajjamaanaa viisati honti, pa.tipadaavibhaagena vibhajjamaanaa cattaaliisa honti. They are divided into five types through the types of faculty (indri-aadhika).* Subsequently they are divided into five types of attainment (pa.tipattiyaadi).** They are divided into six as the deliverance of the signless, etc (animitta-vimuttaadi).*** They are divided into seven types by resolution (adhimutti).**** They are divided into eight types beginning with progress in responsibility (dhura-pa.tipadaadi).***** They are divided into nine and ten types of freedom (vimutti). But they are twenty by being divided into types of responsibility as mentioned (dhura). They are forty by being divided into the class of progress (pa.tipadaa). *Faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom (see Th-a III 208). **This seems to be related to the preceding five faculties. ***At Vism 658 (PPf XXI 70-3) only three are given (the signless, the desireless and the void), referring to the Pa.tisambhidaamagga; or two (the desireless and the void), refierring to the Dhammasa"nga.nii. ****Seven types of disciples are enumerated at Vism 659 (PPf XXI 75): "When a man brings [formations] to mind as impermanent and [makes] great resolution," he can become (1) a faith devotee, (2) one liberated by faith, (3) a body witness, (4) one who is liberated both ways, (5) a devotee of the Doctrine, (6) one who has attained to vision, (7) one liberated by understanding. *****Vism 667f (PPF XXI 117f), gives difficult progress and easy progress connected with the four paths. Or this may refer to making progress in the noble eightfold path (cf. Child sv pa.tipadaa). Puna pa.tipadaabhedena dhurabhedena vibhajjamaanaa asiiti honti. Atha vaa su~n~nataavimuttaadivibhaagena vibhajjamaanaa cattaaliisaadhikaani dvesataani honti. Puna indriyaadhikavibhaagena vibhajjamaanaa dvisatuttarasahassa.m hontiiti. Evametaasa.m theriina.m attano gu.navaseneva anekabhedabhinnataa veditabbaa. Moreover, they are eighty be being divided into types of responsibility and type of progress. Or they are more than two hundred forty by being divided into types beginning with freedom through the void.* Moreover, they are more than one thousand two hundred by being divided into types beginning with the faculties (indriyaadhika). Therefore, because of the good qualities of these theriis, it is to be understood that they can be divided into many sorts. *See Vism 653f (PPf XXI 53-59) where the meditator discerns the void in 2 ways; 4 ways; 6 ways that are expanded according to the six senses, etc; 8 ways, 10 ways, 12 ways, and 42 ways. It is not clear to me how many ways are included in the six ways expanded according to the six senses (see Vism 609 [PPf XX 10f]). Presumably, this could be made to give 162 ways to make a list of 240. Ayamettha sa"nkhepo, vitthaaro pana he.t.thaa theragaathaasa.mva.n.nanaaya.m vuttanayeneva gahetabboti. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Mahaanipaatava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. This is given here in brief. But the details are to be taken as already explained in the commentary on the Verses of the Theras. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Sumedhaa. Here ends the commentary on the great group [of verses]. Nigamanagaathaa Ettaavataa ca- "Ye te sampannasaddhammaa, dhammaraajassa satthuno; orasaa mukhajaa puttaa, daayaadaa dhammanimmitaa. "Siilaadigu.nasampannaa, katakiccaa anaasavaa; subhuuti-aadayo theraa, theriyo therikaadayo. "Tehi yaa bhaasitaa gaathaa, a~n~nabyaakara.naadinaa; taa sabbaa ekato katvaa, theragaathaati sa"ngaha.m. And now come the concluding verses: Those who are possesed of the true Doctrine of the Teacher, who is the King of the Doctrine, legitimate offspring of the Doctrine, born from [the Teacher's] mouth, children [of his], heirs, They are possed of qualities such as virtuous conduct. They have done their duty. They are without taints. Thera Subhuuti, etc, and Therii Therikaa, etc, spoke these verses by way of declaring their perfect knowledge. All of them were brought together by the great theras, the outstanding ones, and put in the collection of the Verses of the Theras and the Verses of the Theriis. RD: The Psalms of them who through the Gospel's grace Became the true-born children and the heirs, Mouth-born, of Him who is the Master Blest, King o' the Norm, creations of the Norm, Excelling in all virtue, Arahants, Who wrought all that 'twas possible to do - These Psalms, their utterances when A~N~NAA They did proclaim, or whensoe'er it was, Beginning with Brother SUBHUUTI'S verse, With Sisters Psalms, headed by 'STURDYKIN' - All these the Leaders of the Order took, And in one ordered serial compiled, The THERAGAATHAA-THERIIGAATHAA named. .. to be continued, connie #83078 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance, attention to Dan. nilovg Hi Howard (and Dan), Op 22-feb-2008, om 20:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > While listening, there is bhaavana. Call it meditation if you like, I > prefer bhaavanaa. > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, I would NOT call it meditation, because it is not. There is good > effect from listening and considering, but meditation is a specific > activity. To > call that meditation is to abuse the language, and to be *very* > misleading. > ---------------------------------------------- > N: Bhaavanaa includes study of the dhamma, explaining it, samatha > and vipassana. Often people translate bhaavana as meditation, but > bhaavana includes more, it is mental development. > I see meditation, for me personally, this way: really considering > thoroughly what we hear or read. So, when Tep publishes a part of > the Abhidhamma text and Scott gives the Pali as well I see it as a > meditation on the Abhidhamma. I consider: how real is this, it > pertains to the present moment, just now. Experiencing objects > through the six doors, rupa that has arisen, uppanna.m, still > present, as the text says. Long ago Dan (where is he?) wrote about meditation on the Abhidhamma, saying, the Master's eye is not far away when considering the Abhidhamma. You know, one of the samatha subjects is recollection of the Dhamma. Do not forget! And this can go naturally together with the development of vipassana. One develops samatha and vipassana together. But I know you see it differently. However, one should not impose a rule, saying this or that must be done in this way by everybody. In the Tipitaka we do not find a rule like this. Different people have different accumulations, and the Buddha knew this. > ------------- > As you know, I do not see special times and ordinary times. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Different occasions differ in nature. When skating one isn't > meditating > or reading a book or sending messages to DSG. -------- N: Sports, reading, sending posts: objects appearing one at a time, and they can be object of mindfulness. Any time is time for kusala and or vipassana when the conditions are there. --------- > H: And different occasions have > differing consequences. You have admitted that the Buddha taught > specific > intentional actions to engage in to cultivate jhanas. When doing > so, those are > special times. ------- N: I agree, for cultivating jhana it is different. However, also here, understanding is most important. -------- > > There is > a sutta about auspicious times for kusala: morning, afternoon, > evening. No limitation. Thus, what is it now? Auspicious time for > kusala or not? > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, auspicious, right now. There are roots of trees, Nina! Carpe > diem! ------ N: Jhana was very suitable for a monk, though also laypeople could attain in the Buddha's time. You are right with carpe diem. When reading a post what is visible appears, seeing and also thinking. Do we waste opportunities for mindfulness right now? Nina. #83079 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:07 am Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... dhammanusara Hi James (Alex, Nina, Howard, Scott), - I appreciate your skillful reasoning that starts with the definitions of ontology and epistemology and uses SN 12.44 as its support. You've convinced me that the Buddha's teaching of Four Noble Truths may be classified as an epistemology (about the nature and origin of the FNT) and that the Abhidhamma is an ontology of existence (of the paramattha dhamma). But the Dhamma is so profound that there is more about the FNT and the Abhidhamma that goes beyond such narrow classifications, I think. >James: The Abhidhamma is an ontology of existence. It speaks of "ultimate reality" and offers a definition of ultimate reality in terms of the Dhamma Theory: nama, rupa, and nibbana. However, the Buddha didn't teach an ontology, the Buddha taught an epistemology. The Four Noble Truths are an epistemology: from ignorance and craving comes suffering. When the Buddha stated that he teaches only suffering and the ending of suffering he was stating that he only teaches an epistemology- moving the mind from ignorance to knowledge. He was not trying to explain existence or the intricate workings of the universe. T: Very good argument! But the Buddha did more than teaching the nature and origin of the dhammas; he also taught his disciples how to practice/penetrate the FNT to realize Nibbana through vijja and vimutti. It is true that the realization of insight knowledges on the Path requires the ability to answer the question "How do we know what we know?". However, to be able to know the truths with direct knowledge(abhjanaati) and full understanding(parinnaa), I think it is critical for one to know with right view (or right understanding) about what is dhamma & what is adhamma, and what is vijja and what is avijja. As a 'systematic account of reality' of the dhamma the Abhidhamma Pitaka draws a line that separates right view from wrong views about the dhammas and makes it clear about the true meaning of the truths (knowledge, vijja) among so many other things. BTW you should join the Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion corner to give us your excellent questions/arguments. Based on the above reasoning, can we then say the Buddha taught BOTH ontology and epistemology of the dhammas? ........... >James: The Abhidhamma doesn't explain "The World", the Abhidhamma explains "Ultimate Reality". The Abhidhamma even goes so far as to explain rupa in terms separate from nama (i.e. unobserved rupa, suffering rupa, etc.), which is an impossibility from the Buddhist standpoint. T: I am just a student of the Abhidahmma, so I am not going to make too big a step to try to explain what it does or does not explain. I only know from my sutta study that the Buddha sometimes taught his monks to separately contemplate rupa as rupa, and nama as nama. And He sometimes taught them that rupa and nama co-arise and are inter- dependent. So we have to be careful when we read the suttas. ................... >James: Additionally, the Buddha taught the five khandas not as a means of explaining existence but as a means of explaining experience. The Buddha didn't say "a person is the five khandas". The Buddha said that what we take for "self" can be seen in terms of the five khandas (the five clinging aggregates). This is a very big difference! T: Yes, what we take as 'attaa' in the khandhas is conditioned by upadana. When there is attavadupadana, there are (wrong) self-views. Now all these views â€" and all these standpoints for views (di.t.thi.t.thana) â€" are formed (or conditioned; sankhata) because "it is impossible that anyone shall experience (them) apart from contact (phassa)... and with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving (ta.nhaa); with craving as condition, clinging (upaadaana); with clinging as condition, being (bhava); with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition aging and death come to be, and also sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair; that is how there is an origin to this whole aggregate-mass of suffering" (D. 1/vol. i, 43-5). Regards, Tep == #83080 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 22-feb-2008, om 21:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Thus, feeling is what is felt and it can also be said that it feels. > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nina, that is how I used to think about this as well - that there were > mental phenomena called "feelings" that we were conscious of, and that > 'feeling' meant experiencing a mental object called a feeling, but > I was disabused > of this right here on DSG!!! I was told, and it made sense to me, > that feeling > is an evaluative operation that experiences an object *as* pleasant, > unpleasant, or neutral, and that mode of experiencing the object is > exactly what a > feeling is. ------- N: The Tiika states that it is said that it is felt, with reference to its mode of experiencing. Its nature should be characterized as being felt. First the passive is used: it is felt, in Pali: vedayita. What is felt is feeling. > I prefer to keep to the text of Vis. and Tiika, then it is safe. Thus feeling itself when in the active sense: it shares the same object as the citta it accompanies. Thus it also experience the object but it has its own mode of experiencing, different from the way citta, sa~n~na, contact or the other cetasikas experience it. Experiencing feeling itself means: another naama that arises later on, say citta with mindfulness, and this experiences feeling with mindfulness. -=--------- > H: So, I was told that we don't feel feelings (as I had thought); we > feel objects! When we get into a warm, comfortable bath, we don't > feel some > thing called pleasant feeling; we feel the warmth as pleasant! > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: That is correct: we do not feel feelings. Objects are felt by > feeling. But we 'notice' also feeling. > When the difference between nama and rupa is not known yet by > vipassana ~naa.na of the first stage, it is really hard to > understand the cetasika feeling. Take bodily feeling, how difficult > to know when rupa appears, when the citta which is body- > consciousness, when feeling, when attachment to the object that is > experienced appears. The warm bath: so many realities: rupa which is heat, attachment to it, pleasant feeling. We cannot distinguish these yet. > > ------- > N: I would not separate feeing and its operation. And see: it is > felt, and also: it feels. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Hmm! this almost sounds like you're teaching nonduality, Nina! Soon > you'll be a Mahayanist! ;-)) > Actually, I do know what you mean: Feeling something as pleasant is > the > reality of "having a pleasant feeling". > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: Yes. Pleasant feeling experiences the taste of a pleasant > object. We have to be careful not to reason too much about it. > --------- (snipped). > > The Commentary to the sutta, referred to above, explains about > feelings, that a following pleasant feeling experiences as object the > flavour of the preceding pleasant feeling, and the same for > unpleasant feeling and neutral feeling. It states: that experiences the flavour and there is no one else that can be > called experiencer of the flavour.> > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That is a recollection of the earlier pleasant feeling, feeling it > again > in the same way. > ----------------------------------------------------- > N: Yes. Similar feelings arise again and again. Nina. #83081 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance, attention to Dan. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/23/2008 9:46:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Jhana was very suitable for a monk, though also laypeople could attain in the Buddha's time. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: At the present time as well. (Not a matter I will get into debate on, though.) -------------------------------------------- You are right with carpe diem. When reading a post what is visible appears, seeing and also thinking. Do we waste opportunities for mindfulness right now? -------------------------------------------- Howard: We should not. ====================== With metta, Howard #83082 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 23-feb-2008, om 0:38 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Larry: Good point. I think we need commentarial clarification why > Vism. > said clinging to objects of 5-doors and didn't include the sixth. -------- N: kaama: clinging to the five sense objects, but these are also experienced through the mind-door. After visible object is experienced through the eye-door, the eye-door process is followed by a mind-door process of cittas also experiencing visible object. The five strands of sense pleasures are emphasized here. But on account of these we may think of concepts and cling to these. This is not excluded. Nina. #83083 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. Dhatu nilovg Hi Tep, Op 23-feb-2008, om 3:17 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > 16. mind-element (mano-dhaatu) > 17. mind-object > (dhamma-dhaatu). > 18. mind-consciousness-element (mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu) > > T: I think the term 'object' above refers to ruupa and 'body' means > kaya. But I can possibly be wrong since I am no Abhidhammika. ;-)) ------- N: mano-dhaatu, mind-element: the five sense-door adverting- consciousness and the two receiving-consciousness. body-consciousness is kaya-vi~n~naa.na that experiences tangible object: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, pressure. dhamma-dhaatu: subtle rupas, cetasikas and nibbaana. Thus, nibbaana is included. Nina. #83084 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, In "Buddhist Dictionary" there is the suggestion that "sensuous clinging" refers to sensuous plane clinging and "physical objects" refers to objects of the sensuous plane. Did you see anything like that in the commentary? Larry BD: up?d?na: 'clinging', according to Vis.M. XVII, is an intensified degree of craving (ta?h?, q.v.). The 4 kinds of clinging are: sensuous clinging (k?mup?d?na), clinging to views (di??hup?d?na), clinging to mere rules and ritual (s?labbatup?d?na), clinging to the personality-belief (atta-v?dup?d?na). (1) "What now is the sensuous clinging? Whatever with regard to sensuous objects there exists of sensuous lust, sensuous desire, sensuous attachment, sensuous passion, sensuous deludedness, sensuous fetters: this is called sensuous clinging. (2) ''What is the clinging to views? 'Alms and offerings are useless; there is no fruit and result for good and bad deeds: all such view and wrong conceptions are called the clinging to views. (3) "What is the clinging to mere rules and ritual? The holding firmly to the view that through mere rules and ritual one may reach purification: this is called the clinging to mere rules and ritual. (4) "What is the clinging to the personality-belief? The 20 kinds of ego-views with regard to the groups of existence (s. sakk?ya-di??hi): these are called the clinging to the personality-belief" (Dhs. 1214-17). This traditional fourfold division of clinging is not quite satisfactory. Besides kamup?d?na we should expect either r?pup?d?na and ar?pup?d?na, or simply bhavup?d?na. Though the An?g?m? is entirely free from the traditional 4 kinds of up?d?na, he is not freed from rebirth, as he still possesses bhavup?d?na. The Com. to Vis.M. XVII, in trying to get out of this dilemma, explains k?mup?d?na as including here all the remaining kinds of clinging. "Clinging' is the common rendering for u., though 'grasping' would come closer to the literal meaning of it, which is 'uptake'; s. Three Cardinal Discourses (WHEEL 17), p.19. #83085 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:03 am Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... truth_aerator Dear Tep and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: But the Dhamma is so profound that there is more > about the FNT >>> It is true. But do you remember the parables about a) Being shot with an arrow & b) Handful of leaves (what the Buddha has taught was very little to what he knew, but he didn't teach everything because not everything was useful for Liberation) & c) The closed fist. In DN16 the Buddha has said that he had no hidden teachings. It is hard for me to imagine that in the Suttas the Buddha constantly refused to answer many questions and he does a 180 degree turn in AP. Considering that 89 cittas, 52 cetasikas, etc are NOT mentioned in Nikayas... Not to say that in his classification of teachings there are not mention of Abhidhamma pitaka (not to mention the Dvepitaka as Buddha's teaching - DN16)... terminology difference... Considering his statements saying "Few words is enough, go meditate!", You get the idea. > > T: Very good argument! But the Buddha did more than teaching the > nature and origin of the dhammas; he also taught his disciples how to > practice/penetrate the FNT to realize Nibbana through vijja and > vimutti. It is true that the realization of insight knowledges on > the Path requires the ability to answer the question "How do we know > what we know?". However, to be able to know the truths with direct > knowledge(abhjanaati) and full understanding(parinnaa), I think it is > critical for one to know with right view (or right understanding) > about what is dhamma & what is adhamma, and what is vijja and what is > avijja. >>> Suttas such as DN22, MN118,119 and such describe these things in great detail. Furthermore MN#9 and Sn3.12 offers many insights each of which can lead all the way to Arahatship. Also in DN28 there is an interesting statement that meditating on the body can give insight knowledge of the vinnana stream. Please don't misunderstand the below: How many 'basic' vipassana insight knowledges do you have? Before you master them, is it really a proper time to study AP? Remember, a 'simple' insight knowledge fully developed with 7 factors of awakening CAN lead all the way to Arahatship (sn3.12 list about a dozen or so. Similiar with MN9). If one doesn't work *for you*, then achieve the next, and/or make sure that all factors of awakening are fully developed in balanced way. Lots of Metta, Alex #83086 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:04 am Subject: Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. .. Transformation into Sotapanna?.. dhammanusara Hi Jon, - Nowadays we do not seem to have as many disagreeable beliefs as in the past, really? > Jon: Not like the old days ;-)) T: Do you know why? Whatever the reason, I think even an agreement is like a mirage. ................. >Jon: Would you mind saying a little about why, as you see it, talking about the "moments of seeing consciousness" implies the ariyan's ability to "see" paramattha dhamma. I don't see it that way. >In case this should be relevant, I'd like to clarify that I'm not talking about seeing *individual moments* of seeing consciousness; just seeing (multiple moments of) seeing consciousness as that consciousness that experiences visible object. T: That IS relevant because I am for mind-door consciousnesses that "experience a visible object" in the worldly sense (not ultimate sense). I said earlier, "But that talking about the "moments of seeing consciousness" implies the ariyan's ability to "see" paramatthadhamma". It means I, a puthujjana, have not been able to see visible ruupa that arises and falls away at all. I only can see 'form' as the aggregate that 'comes to be', is subject to ageing and death, and is thus impermanent. So if you can catch the "rise-and- fall phenomena" of a visible ruupa at each and every eye- consciousness moment, you have to be an ariyan. ------------------- >Jon: What is the significance, as you see it, of omitting the reference to right view not being exclusive to the ariyan? I don't get your point. T: Same point as explained above in the case of the ariyan's seeing versus a worldling's. A right view in an ariyan is very different from a right view in a worldling, although there are several stages/levels of transformation from low to high, to higher, and to perfection. ........................... T: You say only akusala arises with ignorance and sometimes with a wrong view. So, as long as a consciousnes arise with kusala or it is a vipaka consciousness or a kiriya citta, then we will be okay. > > A question: how (and why) do you know that the worldling can have a view "that is free of all ignorance and wrong view"? I would say that moment defines stream-entry; i.e. the "worldling" is completely transformed into the first-stage ariya puggala (Sotapanna). >Jon: So for example at moments of seeing consciousness and any of the other five-sense-door consciousnesses (of which there are many in a day), being vipaka citta, there is no ignorance or wrong view. >Of course, ignorance or wrong view may arise in the subsequent javana cittas in the sense-door or succeeding mind-door processes (but then again they may not). >But in any case, regardless of the fact that the consciousness is akusala most of the time, if there is awareness of a presently arising dhamma, which may include akusala consciousness, there is also at that moment no ignorance or wrong view. ............... T: But there are several holes in the above argument ! 1. It does not say how such a vipaka may arise here and now. 2. Being free from all ignorance (your own words) is absolute, there is no falling back. Hence it indicates perfection of the ariyans. 3. No explanation how to deal with an akusala citta that arises "most of the time". 4. Vipaka of a lot of akusala cittas cannot be pure from ignorance and/or wrong views. So the future is doomed. > Jon: It is the accumulation and development of such moments that leads eventually to stream entry. How otherwise could any person ever get to the stage of Sotapanna? T: With overwhelming arisings of akusala cittas and their vipakas, it seems hopeless for any puthujjana to be "free of all ignorance and wrong view" even for a moment; let alone accumulation of it for stream entry. Two examplea: 1. A business has keeps on losing money cannot expect to have a debt-free balance sheet. 2. Washing one's body with dirty and smelly water for many years does not promise that one day will come when that person may smell like sweet roses. ;-)) ............... Regards, Tep === #83087 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. Dhatu dhammanusara Hi Nina (TG), - Thank you so much for telling me that my shaken abhidhamma knowledge on dhatu needs a repair ! >Tep (to TG): The term 'dhatu' subsumes all dhammas : sankhata dhamma and asankhata dhamma. Therefore, I believe the dhatu principle applies to other beings besides humans, since they all are sankhata dhammas. >Now we know that the Buddha defined the 18 dhatus only for sankhata dhammas, and asankhata dhatu for Nibbana -- as shown in the Abhidhamma-pitaka. N: mano-dhaatu, mind-element: the five sense-door adverting- consciousness and the two receiving-consciousness. body-consciousness is kaya-vi~n~naa.na that experiences tangible object: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, pressure. dhamma-dhaatu: subtle rupas, cetasikas and nibbaana. Thus, nibbaana is included. T: It is very good to know that 'dhamma-dhaatu' can experience nibbana. But I still have a doubt. I have seen 'nibbana-dhatu' being mentioned in a sutta. That indicates nibbana as separated from the 18 dhatus of the mind & body. Secondly, with nibbana as an 'object' of citta, it does not logically follow that nibbana is included. So could you be kind enough to elaborate a little more? Thanks. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > Op 23-feb-2008, om 3:17 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > 16. mind-element (mano-dhaatu) > > > 17. mind-object > > (dhamma-dhaatu). > > 18. mind-consciousness-element (mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu) > > #83088 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:24 am Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... dhammanusara Dear Alex (Elaine and other friends), - Let me put together all the comments you made : Alex: 1. It is hard for me to imagine that in the Suttas the Buddha constantly refused to answer many questions and he does a 180 degree turn in AP. 2. Considering his statements saying "Few words is enough, go meditate!", You get the idea. 3. MN#9 and Sn3.12 offers many insights each of which can lead all the way to Arahatship. Also in DN28 there is an interesting statement that meditating on the body can give insight knowledge of the vinnana stream. 4. How many 'basic' vipassana insight knowledges do you have? Before you master them, is it really a proper time to study AP? T: I understand the above as a friendly advice to me -- Tep, don't fall into the deep, dark hole of the Abhidhamma trap, you'll miss the sutta boat that directly takes you to insight knowledges leading to Nibbana. I know you are not enthusiastic about the Abhidhamma Pitaka, but I am. Indeed I am greatly interested in the Buddha's Teachings that, I believe, are in the Tipitaka -- not only the Vinaya and Suttanta baskets. Right now, with Nina and Scott and Howard I have Dhamma friends to guide me through the Abhidhamma Pitaka study. I am happy. Are you sure you don't want to join the Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion group? How can you possibly meditate all day, all night? ;-) Regards, Tep == #83089 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:36 am Subject: Re: Alone with Dhamma, ..Transformation into Sotapanna?.. A Typo ! dhammanusara Hi Jon (TG, all), - Please correct on error near the ned of my post : Incorrect: Two examplea: 1. A business has keeps on losing money cannot expect to have a debt-free balance sheet. Corrected: Two examplea: 1. A business keeps on losing money cannot expect to have a debt-free balance sheet. Sorry. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Jon, - > > .................... > T: With overwhelming arisings of akusala cittas and their vipakas, it seems hopeless for any puthujjana to be "free of all ignorance and wrong view" even for a moment; let alone accumulation of it for stream entry. Two examplea: 1. A business has keeps on losing money cannot expect to have a debt-free balance sheet. 2. Washing one's body with dirty and smelly water for many years does not promise that one day will come when that person may smell like sweet roses. ;-)) > ............... > #83090 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... Hi Nina, Tep, Howard, Others, I believe the question as to WHY things are impermanent is very important for the comprehensive knowing of impermanence. Tep and Nina were oh-so-close to answer when Tep referenced this and Nina's response was oh-so-close too.... > Impermanence of any sankhata dhamma is caused > by impermanent conditions that come together. ... > ------- N: Yes, Tep gives the right explanation and sutta quote. When conditioning factors are combined it causes the arising of a certain dhamma. Sankhaara is literally: doing together, putting together. When there is arising at a certain moment, it shows that that dhamma was not there from all eternity. It was not there at first, thus it is not eternal or permanent. The combination of different factors that condition the arising of that dhamma cannot stay forever, these have to go. Evenso that conditioned dhamma, it cannot stay. Nina. .............................................................. TG: Nina, your statement, though showing a slight understanding for why things arise, lacks any explanation or understanding as to why they cease. It just says -- "they have to" which means nothing in terms of explanation of cause. My friends, It is the same causes and conditions that are responsible for the generation of conditions (arising of conditions) that are responsible for the alteration and ceasing of conditions!!! And Tep and Nina were basically all-over-it in their above conversation. But yet did not recognize it. It is the "doing together," the "combining," the "putting together" that is the process and forces of alteration. Its what I spoke earlier to Tep about regarding DYNAMICS. How is it some of you folks can see this to be the cause for the "arising of things," and not recognize it is the same cause for the "ceasing of things"? Perhaps because it was not written in an Abbhidhamma text? This is how experiences and phenomena arise, and how they cease...the combining of conditions. Moreover, it gets to the point...of the cause for impermanence. But it needs to be contemplated and seen. As phenomena interact and combine conditions, conditions are continuously altering. This explains arising and ceasing as a SIMULTANEOUS process. The "arising of one thing," is the "ceasing of something else." (NOTE: The speaking of "things" here is for simplicity of language. In actuality, these are mere empty and coreless conditions, formations, phenomena, happenings. They do not arise or cease as "things" of themselves, that is just our "conceptualization" of them/objects.) Without understanding this, (the dynamics of simultaneous arising and ceasing), one is left with the meaningless answer that things are impermanent ... BECAUSE. Humm, I think Christians have better answers than that. Now, to delve deeper into this issue, one needs to understand what is driving the dynamics. But suffice it to say for now that -- "momentums are continuously disrupting various other momentums." Personally, I think this is one very important "insight issue" for modern Buddhists to understand. I don't think many folks are going to be impressed with -- "because" or "it has to be" as explanations as to why things are impermanent. Granted, we are not out to explain the origins of the universe or anything, but an in-depth understanding of impermanence and "conditionality-principles" is important to Buddhist practice and progress IMO. TG OUT #83091 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 23-feb-2008, om 17:28 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > This traditional fourfold division of clinging is not quite > satisfactory. Besides kamup?d?na > we should expect either r?pup?d?na and ar?pup?d?na, or simply > bhavup?d?na. Though > the An?g?m? is entirely free from the traditional 4 kinds of up?d? > na, he is not freed from > rebirth, as he still possesses bhavup?d?na. The Com. to Vis.M. > XVII, in trying to get out of > this dilemma, explains k?mup?d?na as including here all the > remaining kinds of clinging. ------- N: There are different ways of classifying defilements. Apart from upadaana, there are the fetters, samyojanas, the lower ones and the higher ones. Among the lower fetters is kaama-raga, and among the higher fetters we find ruupa-raaga, lust for rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes and aruupa-raga, lust ofr rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes. The anaagaami still has longing for rebirth, and this is among another classification of ten fetters: the fetter of bhava-raaga. Thus you see, there are different groups of defilements, and each of these stress certain aspects. ---------- L: In "Buddhist Dictionary" there is the suggestion that "sensuous clinging" refers to sensuous plane clinging and "physical objects" refers to objects of the sensuous plane. Did you see anything like that in the commentary? ------ N: The dict. states: It also gives for kaama: the defilement of clinging and the objects that are the basis of clinging. The Tiika mentions the kaamagu.na. No problem, just certain aspects are given with each link, not an exhaustive classification. Nina. #83092 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. Dhatu nilovg Hi Tep, Op 23-feb-2008, om 18:22 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Now we know that the Buddha defined the 18 dhatus only for sankhata > dhammas, and asankhata dhatu for Nibbana -- as shown in the > Abhidhamma-pitaka. > > N: mano-dhaatu, mind-element: the five sense-door adverting- > consciousness and the two receiving-consciousness. > body-consciousness is kaya-vi~n~naa.na that experiences tangible > object: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, pressure. > dhamma-dhaatu: subtle rupas, cetasikas and nibbaana. Thus, nibbaana > is included. > > T: It is very good to know that 'dhamma-dhaatu' can experience > nibbana. ------ N: Dhamma-dhaatu: nibbaana is included as object. The lokuttara cittas that experience nibbaana are mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu. ------- > T: But I still have a doubt. I have seen 'nibbana-dhatu' being > mentioned in a sutta. That indicates nibbana as separated from the 18 > dhatus of the mind & body. ------ N: It is right that nibbaana is asankhata dhaatu, unconditioned element. It is still dhamma-dhaatu, it is a dhamma, a reality. -------- > T: Secondly, with nibbana as an 'object' of > citta, it does not logically follow that nibbana is included. ----- N: Is there still something not clear? Nina. #83093 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Nina & Tep) - In a message dated 2/23/2008 2:11:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: My friends, It is the same causes and conditions that are responsible for the generation of conditions (arising of conditions) that are responsible for the alteration and ceasing of conditions!!! And Tep and Nina were basically all-over-it in their above conversation. But yet did not recognize it. It is the "doing together," the "combining," the "putting together" that is the process and forces of alteration. Its what I spoke earlier to Tep about regarding DYNAMICS. How is it some of you folks can see this to be the cause for the "arising of things," and not recognize it is the same cause for the "ceasing of things"? Perhaps because it was not written in an Abbhidhamma text? =============================== It's not 100% clear to me what you are saying here. How is it that (you are saying that) the arising of the cluster of requisite conditions for the arising of a phenomenon is also the cause of its cessation? Is it that the cluster of requisite conditions is needed not only for the arising of the phenomenon, but also for *sustaining* it, so that when the conditions in the cluster subside, so does the caused phenomenon? That is an interesting and fresh idea, but untrue, I think, because it cannot always be that the conditions in the cluster all arise instantaneously and simultaneously and then all cease, their cessation marking the arising of the caused phenomenon, because there are just too many examples of the preconditions occurring and ceasing at various different times, some arising possibly way in the past. I think, for example, of kamma, and the various supportive conditions for the resulting vipaka. Your thinking, it seems to me, is based on the familiarity of contiguous passing on of things we so often observe in day-to-day life. But action-at-a-distance, both spatial and temporal, seems to be a reality as well. And even if your perspective were correct, it would really only come down to the ceasing of a phenomenon being dependent on the ceasing of its requisite conditions, and then there is just further & further regression back in time; so the bottom line is still that cessation of whatever has arisen has always been the case, is the case, and always will be so. That it is the nature of all dhammas that arise to cease. One could similarly ask for the "because" explaining why phenomena don't arise spontaneously, without cause. The answer to that must also remain "Because that is the nature of dhammas." With metta, Howard #83094 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. m_nease Hi Jon, I thought this was good: > First, I certainly wouldn't expect to find "reality" included in the > list of "nonself, conditioned, mirage, tricks" etc. Let me explain why. > > Elements, khandhas and dhammas are synonyms for those "things" to > which the description or simile of "nonself, conditioned, mirage, > tricks" applies. And "realities" is a translation of "dhammas". So > it is "realities" that are being described. > > Secondly, as regards the general question of dhammas and characteristics: > - each dhamma has a 'signature' characteristic by which it is > distinguished from all other dhammas; > - all dhammas have in common the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha > and anatta; > - the fact that dhammas are said to be insubstantial, being likened > to a mirage, a coreless plantain tree, etc, has to be understood in > the context of this being said about things that have the > (unalterable) characteristics described above; there is no > contradiction between being an ultimate reality/dhamma in that sense > and being insubstantial (and hence not worth grasping at) in the sense > of having only the most fleeting of presences. And it reminded me of Dhammapada 1., The Pairs (Yamakavagga), 11., Translated by Ven. Buddharakkhita: 11. Those who mistake the unessential to be essential and the essential to be unessential, dwelling in wrong thoughts, never arrive at the essential. 11. Asaare saaramatino ~ saare casaaradassino, Tesaaram naadhigacchanti ~ micchaasamkappagocaraa The Paa.li's over my head--I just include it for anyone who cares to compare the translation. mike #83095 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. Dhatu dhammanusara Hi Nina, - I am sorry that I misunderstood the meaning of dhamma dhatu. Thank you for making it clear this time that dhamma dhatu is an object of mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu, and since nibbana is a dhamma dhatu it is included in the group of 18 dhatus. > N: Is there still something not clear? T: No, Nina, it is fine now. I appreciate the clarification. Tep #83096 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. dhammanusara Hi TG, Howard (Nina), - It seems to me that suddenly a ray of bright light flashed in your mind and you thought you got "the answer". But how do you know whether or not that was a ray of delusion (played on you by the Mara)? >TG: My friends, It is the same causes and conditions that are responsible for the generation of conditions (arising of conditions) that are responsible for the alteration and ceasing of conditions!!! And Tep and Nina were basically all-over-it in their above conversation. But yet did not recognize it. > TG: It is the "doing together," the "combining," the "putting together" that is the process and forces of alteration. Its what I spoke earlier to Tep about regarding DYNAMICS. How is it some of you folks can see this to be the cause for the "arising of things," and not recognize it is the same cause for the "ceasing of things"? Perhaps because it was not written in an Abbhidhamma text? T: According to the Dependent Origination, that also explains "dependent cessation" when you reverse the process, factor A causes factor B to arise, and B ceases when A ceases. For example, SN 12.2 Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta : "And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. ..." Here A = ignorance, B = fabrications(sankhara). "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. ..." T: So it is clear that when its causal condition is removed or ceased, the dependent dhamma must cease. And when the causal factor is intact, then the dependent phenomenon is sustained. If you do not abandon the ignorance, it will continue to cause bodily, verbal and mental fabrications. The Buddha did not say "the cause for the arising of things was the same cause for the ceasing of things". The DO explains perfectly enough! T: Impermanence of any sankhata dhamma is explained by the three factors as given in the Sankhata Sutta that we discussed earlier, namely : arising, passing-away and alteration while staying. The cessation or "passing away" is already there; there is no need to say anything more than that. Nina and I have said that all sankhata dhammas are conditioned by the "coming together" of conditions (or factors, or phenomena) that are themselves impermanent; that's is a reason why sankhata dhamas are impermanent. This understanding is supported by the following sutta. "If a painful feeling arises in him, he knows: 'Now a painful feeling has arisen in me. It is conditioned, not unconditioned. Conditioned by what? Even by this sense-impression it is conditioned. And this sense-impression, indeed, is impermanent, compounded, dependently arisen. But if this painful feeling that has arisen is conditioned by a sense-impression which is impermanent, compounded and dependently arisen, how could such a painful feeling be permanent?' [SN 36.7 Gelañña Sutta] A painful feeling is sankhata dhamma that is conditioned by other impermanent, compounded, dependently arisen factors. Thus it must be impermanent. Q.E.D. ............................... T: Perhaps, the more interesting idea of your hypothesis on "why things are impermanent" is the following : >TG: As phenomena interact and combine conditions, conditions are continuously altering. This explains arising and ceasing as a SIMULTANEOUS process. The "arising of one thing," is the "ceasing of something else. T: Can you quote a sutta to support this flashed ray of bright light? Tep === #83097 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and TG, and Nina) - In a message dated 2/23/2008 4:46:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: T: Perhaps, the more interesting idea of your hypothesis on "why things are impermanent" is the following : >TG: As phenomena interact and combine conditions, conditions are continuously altering. This explains arising and ceasing as a SIMULTANEOUS process. The "arising of one thing," is the "ceasing of something else. T: Can you quote a sutta to support this flashed ray of bright light? ============================= It IS an interesting idea, and a very *pretty* one, but I think that it is not a general truth. Generally, once all the requisite conditions for a phenomenon have occurred, not necessarily all of them ever holding at the very same time, the phenomenon arises. How long it then persists is determined, I should think, by the type of phenomenon it is and also by what other conditions are in effect at the time, but its cessation is guaranteed by its very arising, and generally the cessation comes quite quickly. Of course, should the (equivalent) causative aggregate of conditions recur quickly, then, also quickly, the same (sort of) phenomenon will arise again. If that keeps on happening, causative conditions quickly recurring and caused phenomenon also then recurring, it may well seem that the phenomenon is simply continuing non-stop, being "sustained" by apparently continuing conditions. We tend to miss cessation and recurrence when it is rapid and see continuousness instead. With metta, Howard #83098 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:14 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Howard, and Nina, Regarding (I thought it was interesting): "[595]All form is that which is not root-condition (na hetu), not the concomitant of a root-condition (ahetuka.m), disconnected with root-condition (hetuvippayutta.m), causally related (sappacaya.m), conditioned (sa"nkata.m)..." Attasaalinii (pp.399): "Herein condition is fourfold: - root-condition, causal condition, chief condition, common condition. Of these, that which includes the 'three moral conditions, three immoral, three unmoral conditions' is root-condition. 'Now, bhikkhu, the four great essentials are the condition, the cause in the designation of the material aggregate' [S. iii, 101] - here we have hetu (condition) in the general sense of causal relation (paccaya)..." Scott: I did a little looking (thanks, Nina): S.N. 82(10) Pu.n.namasutta.m (Bh. Bodhi trans.): "...What is the cause and condition, venerable sir, for the manfestation of the form aggregate?...The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the form aggregate..." "Ko nu kho, bhante, hetu kho paccayo ruuupakkhandhassa pa~n~naapanaaya?...Cattaaro kho, bhikkhu, mahaabhuutaa hetu, cattaaro mahaabhuutaa paccayo ruupakkhandhassa pa~n~naapanaaya..." PTS PED: "Pa~n~naapana (nt.) [fr. pa~n~naapeti] disclosure, discovering..." "Pa~n~naapeti [Caus. of pajaanaati] 1. to make known, declare, point out, appoint, assign, recognise, define...2. to lay down, fold out, spread..." ["Pa~n~natti (f.) [fr. pa~n~naapeti, cp. pa~n~natta] making known, manifestation, description, designation, name, idea, notion, concept..."] Bhikkhu Bodhi's opinion: "Note 141. Ruupakkhandhassa pa~n~napanaaya. This might have been rendered 'for the description of the form aggregate.' Pa~n~naapana is literally 'making known' and something is 'made known' either by becoming manifest or by being described." Scott: Note that the Attasaalinii translation of the sutta extract uses the word 'designation' for pa~n~naapana. Does this mean that the four great elements are cause and condition for pa~n~natti, such as the description of visible object as 'person'? In the conclusion of the sutta, the following reflection arose in someone's mind: "...So it seems that form is nonself, feeling is nonself, perception is nonself, volitional formations are nonself, consciousness is nonself. What self, then, will deeds done by what is nonself affect?" The Buddha knew of this reflection and stated: "'It is possible that some senseless man here, obtuse and ignorant, with his mind dominated by craving, might think he can outstrip the Teacher's Teaching...What do you think, bhikkhu, is form permanent or impermanent?' 'Impermanent, venerable sir.' 'Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?' - 'Suffering, venerable sir.' - 'Is what is impermanent, suffering and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self'?' - 'No, venerable sir.'" Scott: If this applies to the way in which one designates the form one calls one's own body, i.e., that 'my body' or 'my self' is only conceptual, then this would also apply to the way in which one designates visible object as 'a person'. Sincerely, Scott. #83099 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:25 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani scottduncan2 P.S. That's 'Atthasaalinii', by the way, sorry. S. #83100 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. dhammanusara Hi Howard and TG, - Thanks to TG for the cute idea and to your penetrating analysis, Howard. ............. > >TG: As phenomena interact and combine conditions, conditions are > continuously altering. This explains arising and ceasing as a > SIMULTANEOUS process. The "arising of one thing," is the "ceasing of something else. > > T: Can you quote a sutta to support this flashed ray of bright light? > > > > ============================= > Howard: It IS an interesting idea, and a very *pretty* one, but I think that it is not a general truth. > Generally, once all the requisite conditions for a phenomenon have occurred, not necessarily all of them ever holding at the very same time, the phenomenon arises. How long it then persists is determined, I should think, by the type of phenomenon it is and also by what other conditions are in effect at the time, but its cessation is guaranteed by its very arising, and generally the cessation comes quite quickly. T: The 24 conditions describe the time dynamics an arising-and- passing-away phenomenon(dhamma). Some paccayas have built-in delays (pre- and post-nascence conditions). The delayed response is complex given several other time-varying conditions and their interaction over time. > Howard: Of course, should the (equivalent) causative aggregate of conditions recur quickly, then, also quickly, the same (sort of) phenomenon will arise again. If that keeps on happening, causative conditions quickly recurring and caused phenomenon also then recurring, it may well seem that the phenomenon is simply continuing non-stop, being "sustained" by apparently continuing conditions. We tend to miss cessation and recurrence when it is rapid and see continuousness instead. > T: I like that reasoning. Good description, Howard ! Tep === #83101 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:39 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > T: Very good argument! But the Buddha did more than teaching the > nature and origin of the dhammas; he also taught his disciples how to > practice/penetrate the FNT to realize Nibbana through vijja and > vimutti. It is true that the realization of insight knowledges on > the Path requires the ability to answer the question "How do we know > what we know?". However, to be able to know the truths with direct > knowledge(abhjanaati) and full understanding(parinnaa), I think it is > critical for one to know with right view (or right understanding) > about what is dhamma & what is adhamma, and what is vijja and what is > avijja. As a 'systematic account of reality' of the dhamma the > Abhidhamma Pitaka draws a line that separates right view from wrong > views about the dhammas and makes it clear about the true meaning of > the truths (knowledge, vijja) among so many other things. James: So, here I take it that to you the Abhidhamma constitutes right view or enhances right view? I don't see an ontology of existence as right view; actually I see it as wrong view. Ontologies only reinforce the idea of self: it becomes a "self" observing and knowing the world/universe outside. The very thing the Abhidhamma is supposed to destroy- view of self- it actually reinforces. This is why you see Nina writing to Han "It is because of your kusala citta...." whose kusala citta? Is there a self which owns that kusala citta? You see, it is impossible to destroy view of self with the dhamma theory because the deluded mind automatically reifies everything it encounters. BTW you > should join the Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion corner to give us > your excellent questions/arguments. James: I will pop in when the mood strikes me and time allows. :-) BTW, I admire your gumption to undertake this project. The only real way to know something is to study it for yourself. > > Based on the above reasoning, can we then say the Buddha taught BOTH > ontology and epistemology of the dhammas? James: You seem so eager and friendly I want to agree with you :-), but I just can't. The only ontology the Buddha taught is the three characteristics of existence; everything else the Buddha taught is an epistemology. > ........... > > >James: The Abhidhamma doesn't explain "The World", > the Abhidhamma explains "Ultimate Reality". The Abhidhamma even goes > so far as to explain rupa in terms separate from nama (i.e. unobserved > rupa, suffering rupa, etc.), which is an impossibility from the > Buddhist standpoint. > > T: I am just a student of the Abhidahmma, so I am not going to make > too big a step to try to explain what it does or does not explain. I > only know from my sutta study that the Buddha sometimes taught his > monks to separately contemplate rupa as rupa, and nama as nama. And > He sometimes taught them that rupa and nama co-arise and are inter- > dependent. So we have to be careful when we read the suttas. James: Yes, the Buddha taught the Four Foundations of Mindfulness; but I think it is a huge mistake to say that those Four Foundations must constitute ultimate reality since the Buddha taught to contemplate them. As I stated, the mind wants to create an ontology from anything in order to justify it's permanent existence (an illusion). Metta, James #83102 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:55 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Dear Scott, - Thank you for this Pali discussion, although I am not a Pali expert. I would like to make a comment based on a limited knowledge I have for the term pa~n~naapanaaya that is 'manifestation' in English. Your note gives me a clue that Pa~n~naapeti is related to pajaanaati that means 'to know, find out, come to know, understand, distinguish'. It is used with yathaabhutam to mean "discerns as it actually is" (see Sekha Sutta, SN 48.53). Discern means pa~n~naa. So I think 'manifestation' should have a deeper meaning than knowing with a worlding's wisdom as you suggested : >Scott: Note that the Attasaalinii translation of the sutta extract uses the word 'designation' for pa~n~naapana. Does this mean that the four great elements are cause and condition for pa~n~natti, such as the description of visible object as 'person'? T: Perhaps, it may be manifestation of the mahabhuta-dhaatu beyond the person level -- i.e. seeing the paramattha dhammas, like the following sutta quote indicates. The Blessed One said: "And how does one dwell in heedlessness? When a monk dwells without restraint over the faculty of the eye, the mind is stained with forms cognizable via the eye. When the mind is stained, there is no joy. There being no joy, there is no rapture. There being no rapture, there is no serenity. There being no serenity, he dwells in suffering. The mind of one who suffers does not become centered. When the mind is uncentered, phenomena (dhammas) don't become manifest. When phenomena aren't manifest, one is classed simply as one who dwells in heedlessness". [SN 8.97 Pamadaviharin Sutta] T: The phenomena are manifest only with 'yathaabhutam pajaanaati' in the 'one who dwells in heedfulness'. At that time the world is empty of beings as the basis for clinging. .................... Scott: The Buddha knew of this reflection and stated: "'It is possible that some senseless man here, obtuse and ignorant, with his mind dominated by craving, might think he can outstrip the Teacher's Teaching...What do you think, bhikkhu, is form permanent or impermanent?' 'Impermanent, venerable sir.' 'Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?' - 'Suffering, venerable sir.' - 'Is what is impermanent, suffering and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self'?' - 'No, venerable sir.'" Scott: If this applies to the way in which one designates the form one calls one's own body, i.e., that 'my body' or 'my self' is only conceptual, then this would also apply to the way in which one designates visible object as 'a person'. T: It all depends on whether or not one's view is affected by upadana on the khandhas. Without upadana (i.e. attavadupadana) the khandhas are manifest as conditioned dhammas only. The ariyans see beings with no attachment to the bodies seen, I guess. Tep === #83103 From: han tun Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:32 pm Subject: Byaadhi (sickness) hantun1 Dear Sarah and All, When I was lying on a hospital bed, with fever and severe headache, and with constant hiccups shaking my body all the time, I was thinking of the sufferings born of sickness (byaadhi). In my life-time I have suffered pains and stress many, many times more than those due to jaati and jaraa. And yet, is byaadhi a dukkha sacca? I read the books. In SN 56.11 Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, translated by Ñanamoli Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.nymo.html "Suffering, as a noble truth, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects.” Han: In this translation, sickness (byaadhi) is a dukkha sacca, but in Ven Thanissaro Bhikkhu’s translation of the same sutta, byaadhi is not mentioned. ------------------------ In AN 5.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.057.than.html the five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained, include: "I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.” --------------------- In The Catusacca-Dipani, by Ledi Sayadaw http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL05.html The four inherent characteristics of dukkha-sacca are: Pilanattho -- having the characteristic of oppression Sankhatattho -- having the characteristic of production by combination of causes Santapattho -- having the characteristic of continuously burning, heat, fire Viparinamattho -- having the characteristic of change. Han: If one reviews sickness (byaadhi) with the above criteria, it is not less eligible to be classified as dukkha sacca than other conditions mentioned above. -------------------- In MN 143 Anathapindikovada Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.143.than.html Anathapindika explained how he was suffering due to his illness: how extreme forces sliced through his head, just as if a strong man were slicing his head open with a sharp sword, how extreme pains had arisen in his head, just as if a strong man were tightening a turban made of tough leather straps around his head, how extreme forces carved up his stomach cavity, just as if a butcher or his apprentice were to carve up the stomach cavity of an ox, how there was an extreme burning in his body, just as if two strong men, grabbing a weaker man by the arms, were to roast and broil him over a pit of hot embers. A similar description of sufferings due to sickness was recorded in MN 144 Channovaada sutta. http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/144-channo\ vada-e.html --------------------- Han: And yet, is byaadhi a dukkha sacca? Why I ask this question is because it is missing in two very important suttas. It is not mentioned in Mahaasatipatthaana sutta and in Dependent Origination. A Burmese Sayadaw said that byaadhi is not included by the Buddha in dukkha sacca because it is not an absolute (ekanta) occurrence in beings. The devas never get sick, brahmas never get sick, and even in humans a person like Venerable Baakula never gets sick. But O Lord, I am not a deva, I am not a brahma, and I am not a Baakula. Please classify byaadhi as a dukkha sacca. ========== Han: But the big question is what difference will it make, if byaadhi is included or not included in dukkha sacca? The answer to this question can be two-fold. For those who are advanced, and seeing the arising and passing away of naama and ruupa at the present moment, who understands the realities with right understanding, it will not make any difference whether byaadhi is included in dukkha sacca or not. However, for a person like me who cannot yet see the realities with right understanding, and who is still under the influence of concepts and labeling, it is important. In MN 22 Alagaddupama Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html#dukkha The Buddha said "Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress.” Han: I must know exactly what is dukkha sacca so that I can look for the cessation of dukkha. To administer a proper treatment the doctor needs to have a correct diagnosis. So, for me the complete picture of dukkha sacca is very important. Furthermore, people can get samvega, religious urgency, by contemplating on the sufferings born of sickness. Samvega ~naana can be a precursor for vipassanaa ~naana, and one can have plenty of opportunity to get samvega out of sickness, which occurs much more often than other types of sufferings. So if it were possible in any way, I would like to request the Buddha to give his seal of approval that byaadhi is indeed a dukkha sacca! Dear Sarah, I am not seeking for any solutions. Please just consider this letter as the one written by a person who is not yet completely recovered from the effects of sickness and the potent medicines. Respectfully, Han #83104 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:48 pm Subject: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani /ruupa dhammanusara Hi Nina and others, - This second thread of Dhammasangani continues on ruupa. The Web page from which I fomed the questions is the following : http://84000.org/tipitaka/pitaka3/v.php?B=34&A=5042&Z=5388 [The Abhidhammasangani. Rupavipatti Tika Niddesa 589, 590, 596] There are several classifications for ruupa in the Tika Niddesa that I have not seen before! In the suttas (e.g. Anatta-lakkhana Sutta) I have seen less than ten kinds : e.g. internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near. For today I only want to learn just two new pairs of ruupa in the Dhammasangani, i.e. kamma-fabricated or non-kamma- fabricated, arising from consciousness (citta-samutthaana?) or non-arising from consciousness. Questions: 1. What determines whether a rupa is kamma-fabricated or not? 2. What does "citta-Samutthaana" mean? I am not sure it means 'arising from consciousness'. Thanks. Tep === [õøù] ÃÙ»ÀÒÂã¹à»ç¹ÍػҷԹ¹Ð ¹Ñé¹ à»ç¹ä©¹? ¨Ñ¡¢Òµ¹Ð ÏÅÏ ¡ÒÂÒµ¹Ð ÃÙ»·Ñ駹ÕéàÃÕ¡ÇèÒ ÃÙ»ÀÒÂã¹à»ç¹ÍػҷԹ¹Ð. ÃÙ»ÀÒ¹͡·Õèà»ç¹ÍػҷԹ¹Ð ¹Ñé¹ à»ç¹ä©¹? ÍÔµ¶Ô¹·ÃÕÂì »ØÃÔÊÔ¹·ÃÕÂì ªÕÇÔµÔ¹·ÃÕÂì ËÃ×ÍÃÙ»áÁéÍ×è¹ã´ ÁÕÍÂÙè ä´éá¡è ÃÙ»Òµ¹Ð ¤Ñ¹¸Òµ¹Ð ÃÊÒµ¹Ð ⼯°Ñ¾¾Òµ¹Ð ÍÒ¡ÒÊ¸ÒµØ ÍÒâ»¸ÒµØ ÃÙ»ÍØ»¨ÂÐ ÃÙ»ÊѹµµÔ ¡¾ÌÔ§¡ÒÃÒËÒà ·Õè¡ÃÃÁáµè§¢Öé¹ ÃÙ»·Ñ駹ÕéàÃÕ¡ÇèÒ ÃÙ»ÀÒ¹͡·Õèà»ç¹ÍػҷԹ¹Ð. [õùö] ÃÙ»ÀÒÂã¹äÁèà»ç¹¨ÔµµÊÁد°Ò¹ ¹Ñé¹ à»ç¹ä©¹? ¨Ñ¡¢Òµ¹Ð ÏÅÏ ¡ÒÂÒµ¹Ð ÃÙ»·Ñ駹ÕéàÃÕ¡ÇèÒ ÃÙ»ÀÒÂã¹äÁèà»ç¹¨ÔµµÊÁد°Ò¹. ÃÙ» ÀÒ¹͡·Õèà»ç¹¨ÔµµÊÁد°Ò¹ ¹Ñé¹à»ç¹ä©¹? .......................................................... P.S. Please forgive my Pali spelling. I just guessed from the Thai version. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Nina (and DSG friends), - > > The two sections 503 and 504 below are found in the Dhammasangani, > book 1 of the Abhidhamm-pitaka. > > (Note: To make the Thai fonts readable please click on the 'View' > button on the IE browser's toolbar, then select the UTF-8 encoding > from the pull-down menu. You may have to repeat the operation a few > times.) > #83105 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, This gave me an idea (so it's your fault ;-): Nina: "The five strands of sense pleasures are emphasized here. But on account of these we may think of concepts and cling to these. " Larry: I wonder if we can say clinging to the 5 cords of sensual pleasure (kama guna) is the source of all other clinging. There is no clinging to sensual feeling without first clinging to the object that ignites that feeling. There isn't even clinging to the non-clinging of the formless plane without first suppressing the clinging to form. I couldn't find sutta support for this idea but it has a certain amount of reasonableness. Larry By the way, the word "guna" has a rather illustrious history. Here is what "The Encyclopedia of Eastern Philosophy and Religion" has to say: "Gu.na, Skt., lit. "fundamental quality"; all objects of the manifest world (prakriti) are structurally composed of the three gunas: sattva, rajas, and tamas. As qualities of maya, the trigunas are dependent on brahman, but veil the reality of brahman. If they are fully in balance, nothing appears -- neither manifestation nor creation. Once this balance is disturbed, however, the creation appears. In the physical world, sattva embodies what is pure and subtle (e.g., sunlight), rajas embodies activity (e.g., a volcano), and tamas embodies heaviness and immobility (e.g., a block of granite). "From the point of view of human development, sattva is the nature of that which must be realized; tamas is the obstacle that opposes this realization; and rajas is the force that overcomes tamas. In terms of human consciousness, sattva is expressed as peace and serenity, rajas as activity, passion, and restlessness; and tamas as laziness, lack of interest, and stupidity. A person's character and mood are determined at any given time by the dominant guna.The spiritual aspirant must overcome tamas with rajas and rajas with sattva. For the realization of the atman, even sattva must be overcome. The Vedanta refers to the gunas as "three thieves," a reference to the following story: Three thieves fell upon a merchant who was on his way home and robbed him. Tamas wanted to kill the merchant in order to destroy any trace of the crime. The other two hesitated, and Rajas said, "Let's tie him to a tree. Whether or not he is found will depend on his karma." They bound him to a tree and hurried away. After a while, Sattva returned and cut the ropes. The merchant was overjoyed. "You've saved my life," he said. "Come back to the village with me and I'll reward you." "No, that won't do," replied Sattva. "The police know me to be a thief. The only thing I could do was to release you from your bonds." #83106 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:05 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,242 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 242. 2. But as regards the 'brief and full account of states', firstly, in brief sense-desire clinging is called 'firmness of craving' since it is said: 'Herein, what is sense-desire clinging? That which in the case of sense desires is lust for sense desires, greed for sense desires, delight in sense desires, craving for sense desires, fever of sense desires, infatuation with sense desires, committal to sense desires: that is called sense-desire clinging' (Dhs. 1214). 'Firmness of craving' is a name for the subsequent craving itself, which has become firm by the influence of previous craving, which acts as its decisive-support condition. But some have said: Craving is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief's stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached, like the thief's grasping his objective. These states oppose fewness of wishes and contentment and so they are the roots of the suffering due to seeking and guarding (see D.ii,58f.). The remaining three kinds of clinging are in brief simply [false] view. *********************** 242. dhammasa"nkhepavitthaare pana kaamupaadaana.m taava ``tattha katama.m kaamupaadaana.m? yo kaamesu kaamacchando kaamaraago kaamanandii kaamata.nhaa kaamasneho kaamapari.laaho kaamamucchaa kaamajjhosaana.m, ida.m vuccati kaamupaadaana''nti (dha0 sa0 1220; vibha0 938) aagatattaa sa"nkhepato ta.nhaada.lhatta.m vuccati. ta.nhaada.lhatta.m naama purimata.nhaaupanissayapaccayena da.lhasambhuutaa uttarata.nhaava. keci panaahu ``appattavisayapatthanaa ta.nhaa andhakaare corassa hatthappasaara.na.m viya, sampattavisayaggaha.na.m upaadaana.m tasseva bha.n.daggaha.na.m viya. appicchataasantu.t.thitaapa.tipakkhaa ca te dhammaa. tathaa pariyesanaarakkhadukkhamuulaa''ti. sesupaadaanattaya.m pana sa"nkhepato di.t.thimattameva. #83107 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... Hi Tep In a message dated 2/23/2008 2:47:16 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi TG, Howard (Nina), - It seems to me that suddenly a ray of bright light flashed in your mind and you thought you got "the answer". But how do you know whether or not that was a ray of delusion (played on you by the Mara)? ............................................... NEW TG: That "sudden ray of bright light that flashed in my mind" is a surface presentation, of the subject of my focus in Buddhism, that I have worked on diligently for the last 15 or so years: i.e., the CAUSE of impermanence. I've written a book sized paper on the subject over those years which I continue to work on. So, "sudden"? ... I would say no. The work of Mara? ... maybe. ;-) ................................................. >TG: My friends, It is the same causes and conditions that are responsible for the generation of conditions (arising of conditions) that are responsible for the alteration and ceasing of conditions!!that a And Tep and Nina were basically all-over-it in their above conversation. But yet did not recognize it. > TG: It is the "doing together," the "combining," the "putting together" that is the process and forces of alteration. Its what I spoke earlier to Tep about regarding DYNAMICS. How is it some of you folks can see this to be the cause for the "arising of things," and not recognize it is the same cause for the "ceasing of things"? Perhaps because it was not written in an Abbhidhamma text? T: According to the Dependent Origination, that also explains "dependent cessation" when you reverse the process, factor A causes factor B to arise, and B ceases when A ceases. ........................................................ NEW TG: That is absolutely right! However, DO shows the structure of arising and ceasing, but not clearly the cause due to its very terse presentation. ........................................................ For example, SN 12.2 Paticca-samuppada-For example, SN 12.2 Paticca-samup dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. ..." Here A = ignorance, B = fabrications(consciousc "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. ..." T: So it is clear that when its causal condition is removed or ceased, the dependent dhamma must cease. And when the causal factor is intact, then the dependent phenomenon is sustained. If you do not abandon the ignorance, it will continue to cause bodily, verbal and mental fabrications. The Buddha did not say "the cause for the arising of things was the same cause for the ceasing of things". The DO explains perfectly enough! ........................................................... NEW TG: Quote -- “Whatever is knowledge of the law of cause, that is also knowledge of that which is by nature perishable, transient, fading away, and tending to cease.â€? (The Buddha . . . Kindredayings, vol. 2, pg. 121-122) This quote, though arguably not indisputable, shows that knowledge of conditionality is also knowledge of impermanence. This ties them together as process. The quote is of secondary importance. What really matters is...is this what is happening in actuality. .................................................................... T: Impermanence of any sankhata dhamma is explained by the three factors as given in the Sankhata Sutta that we discussed earlier, namely : arising, passing-away and alteration while staying. The cessation or "passing away" is already there; there is no need to say anything more than that. ............................................................ NEW TG: If you want to talk about real causes, the above doesn't address them. Its just saying -- "this is the way it is." It doesn't address the cause of impermanence at all. ..................................................................... Nina and I have said that all sankhata dhammas are conditioned by the "coming together" of conditions (or factors, or phenomena) that are themselves impermanent; that's is a reason why sankhata dhamas are impermanent. This understanding is supported by the following sutta. "If a painful feeling arises in him, he knows: 'Now a painful feeling has arisen in me. It is conditioned, not unconditioned. Conditioned by what? Even by this sense-impression it is conditioned. And this sense-impression, indeed, is impermanent, compounded, dependently arisen. But if this painful feeling that has arisen is conditioned by a sense-impression which is impermanent, compounded and dependently arisen, how could such a painful feeling be permanent?' [SN 36.7 Gelañña Sutta] A painful feeling is sankhata dhamma that is conditioned by other impermanent, compounded, dependently arisen factors. Thus it must be impermanent. Q.E.D. ............................... ............................................................. NEW TG: All of that excellent material shows dependent structure. None of it explains the cause of impermanence. .................................................................. T: Perhaps, the more interesting idea of your hypothesis on "why things are impermanent" is the following : >TG: As phenomena interact and combine conditions, conditions are continuously altering. This explains arising and ceasing as a SIMULTANEOUS process. The "arising of one thing," is the "ceasing of something else. T: Can you quote a sutta to support this flashed ray of bright light? .......................................................... NEW TG: The one I quoted above might suffice. (I do hope we're finished with the "flashed ray of bright light" accusation. ;-) ) The quotes below are along the lines of my argument, but not definitive... “By reason of a cause it came to be By rupture of a cause it dies awayâ€? (Ven. Sela . . . Kindred Sayings, vol. 1, pg. 169) “Thus, monks, one state just causes another state to swell, one state just causes the fulfillment of another state…â€? (The Buddha . . . Gradual Sayings, vol. 5, pg. 4) “One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma;* one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.â€? (Attributed to the Buddha by Venerable Sariputta -- [The Buddha’s chief disciple in terms of insight] . . . MLDB, pg. 283, The Simile of the Elephants Footprint (Greater), Mahahatthipadopama Sutta, #28.) You can be mindful or your own experiences and see for yourself that "new conditions" are simultaneously altering "old conditions." Conditions do not alter or drop away "by themselves," they do so due to the affects of "other conditions." Since nature/conditionality is a continuous process, impermanence is continuous. The rate of change depends of the conditional circumstances. A "free floating asteroid" may go with very little change for millions of years. But if it meets with the right combination of conditions, such as impact with a sun, then puff...it changes real fast. Impermanence is continuous but they way conditions change is relative to conditions. As humans, we have similar conditional structure and similar conditional environmental circumstance so we tend to change relatively similarly. TG OUT #83108 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani /ruupa upasaka_howard Tep, excuse me, but I'm confused as to what this is. Are you continuing with the material after 503 and 521 here, or soon? (For that matter, I didn't understand why the two paragraph numbers weren't consecutive.) With metta, Howard #83109 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 2/23/2008 1:06:44 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: It's not 100% clear to me what you are saying here. How is it that (you are saying that) the arising of the cluster of requisite conditions for the arising of a phenomenon is also the cause of its cessation? ........................................................... NEW TG: Think about it. As phenomena arise, isn't there change occurring in "previous" phenomena simultaneously? Of course there is. It is the dynamics of the process of conditionality that is the change and impermanence therein. The change is relative to the conditions "at play." ............................................... Is it that the cluster of requisite conditions is needed not only for the arising of the phenomenon, but also for *sustaining* it, so that when the conditions in the cluster subside, so does the caused phenomenon? .................................................... NEW TG: The above isn't my idea and still doesn't explain the cause for impermanence. My idea is that "contact" between "forces," that we can call "conditions," is forcibly altering those conditions into a different form. It is displacing them. Hence, impermanence. In years and years and years of applying this idea, I have never found a case where it failed to work as a reason and cause for things being impermanent. The argument below is not based on my ideas and I distance myself from any of its conclusions or lack thereof. I will point out that you end that argument with another BECAUSE which doesn't mean anything edifying in my view. It just suggest that there is no answer, which is a proposition I don't agree with. TG OUT #83110 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 2/23/2008 3:18:45 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Generally, once all the requisite conditions for a phenomenon have occurred, not necessarily all of them ever holding at the very same time, the phenomenon arises. How long it then persists is determined, I should think, by the type of phenomenon it is and also by what other conditions are in effect at the time, ....................................................... NEW TG: This I agree with completely and is very close to what I am saying. .................................................... but its cessation is guaranteed by its very arising, ......................................................... NEW TG: Yes, but WHY is the issue at hand. That is what I am addressing. ............................................................. and generally the cessation comes quite quickly. Of course, should the (equivalent) causative aggregate of conditions recur quickly, then, also quickly, the same (sort of) phenomenon will arise again. If that keeps on happening, causative conditions quickly recurring and caused phenomenon also then recurring, it may well seem that the phenomenon is simply continuing non-stop, being "sustained" by apparently continuing conditions. We tend to miss cessation and recurrence when it is rapid and see continuousness instead. .................................................................. NEW TG: I don't disagree with any of this. Its a good phenomenological argument and outlook. The mind is "moving" so fast with such a large and fast infusion of impulses/conditions, that its usually going to seem like a fast process in human experience...which it is. However, the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling might be a whole other matter in terms of experience (or the lack thereof.) But if we use external objects, for example, we can slow down and simplify the process to see how it is that contacting, combining conditions/forces are affecting phenomena. Mental processes are following the same principles of change, they are just doing it faster and in a very complex fashion. For example, if I say DOG DOG DOG ... very likely some though will arise in your mind related to a dog. Possibly a mental picture of one. So this condition -- this email where I type DOG, is a "new" condition" that affects your mind and removes whatever idea you had prior to that contact (oh so briefly perhaps.) The "new" condition" changes the "old" condition. This is happening continuously in the mind at a very high rate with much complexity. This is an example of "combining of conditions." The "new" condition changes the "old" condition simultaneously. (mental factor constellations in this case) Impermanence "has to be," this is true. But it "has to be" for a reason. TG OUT .......................................................... #83111 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... Hi Tep In a message dated 2/23/2008 2:47:16 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi TG, Howard (Nina), - It seems to me that suddenly a ray of bright light flashed in your mind and you thought you got "the answer". But how do you know whether or not that was a ray of delusion (played on you by the Mara)? ............................................... NEW TG: That "sudden ray of bright light that flashed in my mind" is a surface presentation, of the subject of my focus in Buddhism, that I have worked on diligently for the last 15 or so years: i.e., the CAUSE of impermanence. I've written a book sized paper on the subject over those years which I continue to work on. So, "sudden"? ... I would say no. The work of Mara? ... maybe. ;-) ................................................. >TG: My friends, It is the same causes and conditions that are responsible for the generation of conditions (arising of conditions) that are responsible for the alteration and ceasing of conditions!!that a And Tep and Nina were basically all-over-it in their above conversation. But yet did not recognize it. > TG: It is the "doing together," the "combining," the "putting together" that is the process and forces of alteration. Its what I spoke earlier to Tep about regarding DYNAMICS. How is it some of you folks can see this to be the cause for the "arising of things," and not recognize it is the same cause for the "ceasing of things"? Perhaps because it was not written in an Abbhidhamma text? T: According to the Dependent Origination, that also explains "dependent cessation" when you reverse the process, factor A causes factor B to arise, and B ceases when A ceases. ........................................................ NEW TG: That is absolutely right! However, DO shows the structure of arising and ceasing, but not clearly the cause due to its very terse presentation. ........................................................ For example, SN 12.2 Paticca-samuppada-For example, SN 12.2 Paticca-samup dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. ..." Here A = ignorance, B = fabrications(consciousc "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. ..." T: So it is clear that when its causal condition is removed or ceased, the dependent dhamma must cease. And when the causal factor is intact, then the dependent phenomenon is sustained. If you do not abandon the ignorance, it will continue to cause bodily, verbal and mental fabrications. The Buddha did not say "the cause for the arising of things was the same cause for the ceasing of things". The DO explains perfectly enough! ........................................................... NEW TG: Quote -- “Whatever is knowledge of the law of cause, that is also knowledge of that which is by nature perishable, transient, fading away, and tending to cease.â€? (The Buddha . . . Kindredayings, vol. 2, pg. 121-122) This quote, though arguably not indisputable, shows that knowledge of conditionality is also knowledge of impermanence. This ties them together as process. The quote is of secondary importance. What really matters is...is this what is happening in actuality. .................................................................... T: Impermanence of any sankhata dhamma is explained by the three factors as given in the Sankhata Sutta that we discussed earlier, namely : arising, passing-away and alteration while staying. The cessation or "passing away" is already there; there is no need to say anything more than that. ............................................................ NEW TG: If you want to talk about real causes, the above doesn't address them. Its just saying -- "this is the way it is." It doesn't address the cause of impermanence at all. ..................................................................... Nina and I have said that all sankhata dhammas are conditioned by the "coming together" of conditions (or factors, or phenomena) that are themselves impermanent; that's is a reason why sankhata dhamas are impermanent. This understanding is supported by the following sutta. "If a painful feeling arises in him, he knows: 'Now a painful feeling has arisen in me. It is conditioned, not unconditioned. Conditioned by what? Even by this sense-impression it is conditioned. And this sense-impression, indeed, is impermanent, compounded, dependently arisen. But if this painful feeling that has arisen is conditioned by a sense-impression which is impermanent, compounded and dependently arisen, how could such a painful feeling be permanent?' [SN 36.7 Gelañña Sutta] A painful feeling is sankhata dhamma that is conditioned by other impermanent, compounded, dependently arisen factors. Thus it must be impermanent. Q.E.D. ............................... ............................................................. NEW TG: All of that excellent material shows dependent structure. None of it explains the cause of impermanence. .................................................................. T: Perhaps, the more interesting idea of your hypothesis on "why things are impermanent" is the following : >TG: As phenomena interact and combine conditions, conditions are continuously altering. This explains arising and ceasing as a SIMULTANEOUS process. The "arising of one thing," is the "ceasing of something else. T: Can you quote a sutta to support this flashed ray of bright light? .......................................................... NEW TG: The one I quoted above might suffice. (I do hope we're finished with the "flashed ray of bright light" accusation. ;-) ) The quotes below are along the lines of my argument, but not definitive... “By reason of a cause it came to be By rupture of a cause it dies awayâ€? (Ven. Sela . . . Kindred Sayings, vol. 1, pg. 169) “Thus, monks, one state just causes another state to swell, one state just causes the fulfillment of another state…â€? (The Buddha . . . Gradual Sayings, vol. 5, pg. 4) “One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma;* one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.â€? (Attributed to the Buddha by Venerable Sariputta -- [The Buddha’s chief disciple in terms of insight] . . . MLDB, pg. 283, The Simile of the Elephants Footprint (Greater), Mahahatthipadopama Sutta, #28.) You can be mindful or your own experiences and see for yourself that "new conditions" are simultaneously altering "old conditions." Conditions do not alter or drop away "by themselves," they do so due to the affects of "other conditions." Since nature/conditionality is a continuous process, impermanence is continuous. The rate of change depends of the conditional circumstances. A "free floating asteroid" may go with very little change for millions of years. But if it meets with the right combination of conditions, such as impact with a sun, then puff...it changes real fast. Impermanence is continuous but they way conditions change is relative to conditions. As humans, we have similar conditional structure and similar conditional environmental circumstance so we tend to change relatively similarly. TG OUT #83112 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/23/2008 5:39:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: James: So, here I take it that to you the Abhidhamma constitutes right view or enhances right view? I don't see an ontology of existence as right view; actually I see it as wrong view. Ontologies only reinforce the idea of self: it becomes a "self" observing and knowing the world/universe outside. The very thing the Abhidhamma is supposed to destroy- view of self- it actually reinforces. This is why you see Nina writing to Han "It is because of your kusala citta...." whose kusala citta? Is there a self which owns that kusala citta? You see, it is impossible to destroy view of self with the dhamma theory because the deluded mind automatically reifies everything it encounters. ..................................... Hi James, Tep, James, I'm just butting in to say that this is exactly the way I feel as well. You really nailed it on the head here! TG #83113 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. TGrand458@... Hi Jon In a message dated 2/23/2008 6:37:41 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi TG > Now, are the elements and khandas the factors that THESE TRUTHS (above) are > to be discovered from? Yes. Good to have agreement on this fundamental point ;-)) ................................................... NEW TG: This is no big deal IMO. After all, all that there is, is these elements. What else is there to contemplate? Though you and I will probably have a vastly different idea as the ontological standing of "said elements." I view them as "reference points." I think you view them as "realities with their own characteristics." I think you folks err in thinking there are "two worlds" out there. An unreal world, and a real world. Nope, there's just the one. Its delusion we are trying to overcome ... not a "fake world." By considering elements as realities, the mind creates a new delusion IMO. It steps "outside the middle way" IMO. The Suttas will point out that the mind only knows the truth after it is freed by "turning away" from the elements, not by affixing to them. The elements are merely fodder for realizing impermanence, affliction, nonself, so that those same elements can be rejected and detached from. Over-substantializing them with ontological importance is a big danger IMO. ............................................................. > BUT THE TRUTH IS -- that the elements and > khandas are not things "with their own characteristics, khandas a opposite...that > these are things "without their own characteristics" these are th Buddha does > describe them as to be seen as -- alien, nonself, conditioned, mirage, tricks, > empty, etc. NOT a "reality" in the bunch. First, I certainly wouldn't expect to find "reality" included in the list of "nonself, conditioned, mirage, tricks" etc. Let me explain why. Elements, khandhas and dhammas are synonyms for those "things" to which the description or simile of "nonself, conditioned, mirage, tricks" applies. And "realities" is a translation of "dhammas". So it is "realities" that are being described. ........................................................ NEW TG: This is why I asked for a Sutta quote and not just inference or personal or commentarial interpretation. The term "realities" is loaded with all sorts of substantiation that I don't think the Buddha would have approved of. So your conclusion above is just personal opinion and speculation. I'm sure you believe it to be correct. I believe it a major blunder. But the Suttas show the Buddha saying that -- the elements, khandas, etc should be see as they really are as impermanent, afflicting, nonself. He DID NOT say that -- they should be seen as they really are as "realities." Yet it is that later claim that gets extreme highlighting by many in this group...even to the extent as to call it "the aim" of the Buddha's teaching. I don't really follow the contorted "simile and synonym" explanation above. I don't know how an -- empty, coreless, mirage-like, alien, "like a trick"; khanda or element, is so "reality-ish" as well. Granted these are very subtle issues. And although I have great respect for the Abhidhamma Pitaka, I find it has the tendency to inculcate an over-substantialistic outlook on some who deal extensively with it. In that way it falls subject to propagating a subtle self-view outlook as these "realities" become seen as "little flickering entities." This is not the Abhidhamma Pitaka's fault per se, but it has less restraining (of self view) sensibilities than the Suttas do. Some folks, in thinking they are overcoming it (self view), are actually embracing it, though subtly. ............................................................ Secondly, as regards the general question of dhammas and characteristics: - each dhamma has a 'signature' characteristic by which it is distinguished from all other dhammas; - all dhammas have in common the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta; - the fact that dhammas are said to be insubstantial, being likened to a mirage, a coreless plantain tree, etc, has to be understood in the context of this being said about things that have the (unalterable) characteristics described above; there is no contradiction between being an ultimate reality/dhamma in that sense and being insubstantial (and hence not worth grasping at) in the sense of having only the most fleeting of presences. ................................................. NEW TG: Wow, this section really proved the point I made in the previous section about substantialism. Just the phrase "unalterable characteristics" is about as un-Buddhist a sentiment as I can image. I wouldn't even want that sentiment as a passing thought. TG OUT .......................................................... #83114 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. lbidd2 Hi TG, I wonder if you can find the cause for impermanence in craving. Craving is craving what you don't have. That dynamic of positive and negative energy seems to create a perpetual motion machine. Larry #83115 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/23/2008 11:25:54 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi TG, I wonder if you can find the cause for impermanence in craving. Craving is craving what you don't have. That dynamic of positive and negative energy seems to create a perpetual motion machine. Larry ................................................ Hi Larry I don't have anything "radical" ... but craving is perpetual as long as there is feeling combined with ignorance. Craving alters/changes in conformity to altering feelings, other supporting conditions, and the altering level of ignorance. Our minds have craving as a continuous type of inertia/tendency. When "one" craving falls, the tendency of the mind is to have craving and it re ignites as each "new" feeling becomes something to attach to or repel from or to disregard in order to seek something else to crave. The cause for "cravings" impermanence is the same as the cause for any other conditions impermanence. Of course the "permanent" cause for cravings impermanence is arahatship. Gotta run. TG #83116 From: "colette" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani ksheri3 HI Tep, since I don't get much time on a computer I can't reply properly, now, but fully intend to, hopefully next wk.. I'm heavy into Nargarjuna's Mulamadhyamaka and will begin looking for his other main pc. which is to avoid the arguments. VErses From the Center comes to mind, no. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Howard (Nina, Colette), - ... > T: Besides the above questions/comments, you also gave an interesting > comment about Nagarjuna's writing that I'd like to discuss with you later. > [Colette might be happy to read your comments too.] > #83117 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. lbidd2 Hi TG, I guess the real test case is what is the cause of the impermanence of bhavanga citta. Bhavanga citta repeats the exact same thought over and over until it is interrupted by an object of consciousness. The interruption fits your model but what causes the basic impermanence of repetition? Another thorny case: during nirodha samapatti all consciousness stops, including bhavanga, but the life force rupa continues to repeat. Why so? We could say "kamma" but that doesn't explain why they fall apart, so to speak, and therefore need to be repeated. Why not one long term 'buz' rather than little moments of repetition? Larry #83118 From: han tun Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:21 am Subject: Patthaana (9) hantun1 Dear All, We have started the general aspect of (1). Root condition (hetu-paccaya). There are six roots: three unwholesome roots (lobha, dosa, moha), and three wholesome roots (alobha, adosa, amoha). In daily life, it may not be easy to describe each root in isolation, because there may be a combination of more than one root at any given moment. Nevertheless, let me present them one by one. I will be most grateful if the Members would correct my mistakes and contribute to make the presentation more complete, accurate and useful. “Lobha” (greed, attachment, sensuous desire) Here, I would like to quote a passage from The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon. Quote: [Lobha is a strong desire for sensuous objects or jhaana happiness. It will never give up this intrinsic nature of desiring however much one may possess. Even the whole wealth on earth cannot satisfy the desire of lobha. It is always on the look-out for something new. Thus one cannot be truly happy if one cannot eliminate lobha. The second nature of lobha is attachment or clinging to sensuous objects or to jhaana and jhaana happiness. This nature of attachment is compared with the sticky nature of monkey-catching glue. This glue is prepared by heating several kinds of sticky gum available in the forest to form a sticky paste. The monkey-catcher applies this sticky mass of gum on the trunks of several trees. When sun-rays fall on the gum, spectra of various colours appear. A monkey, being curious, touches the gum with one paw which becomes firmly attached to the gum. In struggling to pull out this paw, the monkey pushes the tree with the other paw and also kicks the tree with both legs. So both paws and both legs are stuck to the gum. Then the monkey tries to pull itself out by pushing the tree with its head. So the head is also stuck to the gum. The monkey-catcher may now come out from his hiding place and catches or kills the monkey easily. Remember that worldly people are being attached firmly by lobha to sense-objects as well as to their possessions. They cannot renounce the world and their worldly possessions including wives or husbands, sons and daughters. So they are being caught up by old age, disease and death, life after life. Lobha, together with its two great followers, i.e., ditthi (wrong view) and maana (conceit), is responsible for extending the life cycle or the round of rebirth that is known as samsara. On account of this fact, lobha, ditthi and maana are collectively called ‘papanca dhamma.’] End Quote. Another quote from A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi. (Pali words are inserted by me taken from a book by Ashin Janakaabhivamsa.) “Quote: [Greed (lobha): Greed, the first unwholesome root, covers all degrees of selfish desire, longing, attachment, and clinging. Its characteristic is grasping an object (aalambaggaaha-lakkhano). Its function is sticking (abhisanga-raso), as meat sticks to a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up (apariccaaga paccupatthaanako). Its proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage (samyojaniiya dhammesu assaadikkha padatthaano).] End Quote. [aalambaggaaha = aalambana, object; gaaha, grasping. lakkhanaa = characteristic. abhisanga = sticking. rasa = function. apariccaaga = a-pariccaaga, not giving up. paccupatthaanaa = manifestation. samyojaniiya dhammesu = things that lead to bondage. assaada = enjoyment. padatthaanaa = proximate cause.] Thus, lobha is one of the unwholesome roots that support the cittas and the cetasikas associated with it and also the cittaja-ruupa and patisandhi-kammaja-ruupa, by means of hetu-paccayasatti. to be continued. metta, Han Tun #83119 From: han tun Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:39 am Subject: Perfections Corner (91) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) If we want to develop the perfection of patience, we should not forget to accumulate endurance in each situation, be it with regard to seats, beds or anything else in our environment. We read further on: “The Buddha was born into a prominent family and also Pukkusaati had grown in the womb of a mother of prominent family, a Khattiya family [1]. The Buddha attained what he had aspired to, and so did the son of a prominent family. Each of them had left his kingdom to become a monk. The Buddha was of a golden complexion and so was the son of a prominent family. Both of them possessed specific attainments (samaapatti). Both of them were Kings... both of them had left their status of royalty to go forth... They entered the potter’s workshop and sat down in that way. For that reason the potter’s workshop became extremely beautiful and delightful. To the Buddha the thought did not occur that he was of delicate constitution, that he had travelled all the way of fortyfive leagues within one day, and that he would take first the ‘lion’s posture’ [2], just for a moment, so that he could recover from tiredness caused by his journey. Therefore, the Buddha sat down and entered fruition attainment (phala samaapatti) [3]. As regards Pukkusaati, it did not occur to him that he had travelled all the way of hundred and twentynine leagues and that he should first take a rest, just for a moment, to dispel the tiredness caused by his journey. He sat down and entered the fourth jhaana with Mindfulness of Breathing. Question: Did the Buddha not come there with the thought to teach Dhamma to the son of a prominent family? Why did he not teach? Answer: He did not teach because the son of a prominent family was tired from his journey, and thus he had not sufficient calm to receive the teaching of Dhamma. First he should be able to overcome the tiredness of his journey and become calm....” Further on we read: “When the Buddha had emerged from his fruition attainment he saw that Pukkusaati was thoughtful as to the position of his hands and legs, that his head was stable, and that he sat steadfast like the foundation of a dam firmly constructed. He was immovable like a golden statue. The son of a prominent family had a posture that inspired confidence. If a posture inspires confidence it is in that way. Of the four postures three are not beautiful. When someone walks, his hands swing, his legs move and his head shakes. When someone stands, his body is harsh and rigid, and when he lies down, his body is not beautiful. However, when a monk has brushed and swept the place where he will rest at day time, after his meal, when he has spread out a cloth to sit on, well cleansed his hands and legs and sits crosslegged in the lotus position, then his posture is indeed beautiful. The son of a prominent family sat down crosslegged and entered the fourth jhaana with Mindfulness of Breathing in that way.” Note [1] The khattiya clan was the highest clan. Note [2] The Buddha’s sleeping posture on his right side. Note [3] Ariyans who have attained jhaana can have fruition-consciousness, lokuttara vipaakacitta, which experiences nibbaana, arising again many times after the moment of enlightenment. To be continued. Metta, Han #83120 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (91) nilovg Dear Han, Op 24-feb-2008, om 9:39 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > He did not teach because the son of a > prominent family was tired from his journey, and thus > he had not sufficient calm to receive the teaching of > Dhamma. First he should be able to overcome the > tiredness of his journey and become calm....” ------- N: I like such detail. The Buddha was most concerned and took account of the disposition of the listeners. It is true, when too tired or too sick, we do not have the right disposition to take in Dhamma teaching. On the other hand, Dhamma is also the best medicine, as Sarah told us. When I have some ailment, writing posts helps me, I just forget about it. But it depends on the situation, the degree of sickness. Another example we had before: Pukkusati had to eat coarse food like gravel, but he just swallowed it with water. The monk's example is also good for laypeople. In India I thought of this passage: sometimes breakfast was not exactly my taste, but I needed to eat and just swallowedit with liquid. Nina. #83121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (9) nilovg Dear Han, Thank you very much. Op 24-feb-2008, om 9:21 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Here, I would like to quote a passage from The Essence > of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon. > > Quote: [Lobha is a strong desire for sensuous objects > or jhaana happiness. It will never give up this > intrinsic nature of desiring however much one may > possess. Even the whole wealth on earth cannot satisfy > the desire of lobha. ------ N: I am delighted you quote from this good book. The monkey simile we find in the sutta, but he gives more details which I like. And this, so true: As to: , very good, this is in the Commentaries. It is also said that these 'slow down' , they keep us in the cycle. Han: To resume: satti is force. The hetu-paccaya, rootcondition is its force. Nina. #83122 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani nilovg Dear Scott, It is good you refer to Atthasaalini for the meanings of hetu- paccaya. Very good you gave the Pali. Op 24-feb-2008, om 0:14 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > 'Now, bhikkhu, the four great essentials are the > condition, the cause in the designation of the material aggregate' [S. > iii, 101] - here we have hetu (condition) in the general sense of > causal relation (paccaya)..." --------- Cattaaro kho, bhikkhu, mahaabhuutaa hetu, cattaaro mahaabhuutaa paccayo ruupakkhandhassa pa~n~naapanaaya..." Bhikkhu Bodhi's opinion: "Note 141. Ruupakkhandhassa pa~n~napanaaya. This might have been rendered 'for the description of the form aggregate.' Pa~n~naapana is literally 'making known' and something is 'made known' either by becoming manifest or by being described." ------ N: I do not see here in this context pa~n~naapana as description as Ven. Bodhi thinks. -------- Scott: Note that the Attasaalinii translation of the sutta extract uses the word 'designation' for pa~n~naapana. Does this mean that the four great elements are cause and condition for pa~n~natti, such as the description of visible object as 'person'? ------ N: What do you think of this possibility: when looking at the context: the four Great Elements are the condition in the manifestation or appearance of the ruupa-kkhandha. These four Great Elements are the foundation for all the derived ruupas, upaada ruupas, which are dependent on these Great Elements. Take visible object. It does not appear by itself, it needs the four Great Elements, it is dependent on these. Thus here, I am not inclined to think of a concept, but rather of the fact that the derived rupas are dependent on the four Great Elements which have to arise with each group of ruupas. The four Great Elements are the condition for their appearance at this moment. ------- S: ...What do you think, bhikkhu, is form permanent or impermanent?' 'Impermanent, venerable sir.' ------- N: We can apply the sutta you quote: Seeing to what extent rupas are conditioned helps us to see their impermanence: what arises because of conditions has to go, go, go! Nina. #83123 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 24-feb-2008, om 2:53 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I wonder if we can say clinging to the 5 cords of sensual > pleasure (kama guna) is the source of all other clinging. > There is no > clinging to sensual feeling without first clinging to the object that > ignites that feeling. ------ N: As to the source of all other clinging you mention: < We read in Vis. 244: Herein, order of arising of defilements is not meant literally because there is no first arising of defilements in the beginningless round of rebirths. But in a relative sense it is this: usually in a single becoming the misinterpretation of (insistence on) eternity and annihilation are preceded by the assumption of a self. After that, when a man assumes that this self is eternal, rite-and-ritual clinging arises in him for the purpose of purifying the self. And when a man assumes that it breaks up, thus disregarding the next world, sense-desire clinging arises in him.> As to the objects: we read in Vis. 243: Thus here the objects are referred to, as you say. The objects of craving, tanhaa, are also thos of firm grasping, upaadaana. -------- L: > There isn't even clinging to the non-clinging of > the formless plane without first suppressing the clinging to form. I > couldn't find sutta support for this idea but it has a certain > amount of > reasonableness. ------ N: See Han's quote of the book by Mehm Tin Mon, who mentions clinging to jhaanas. One may cling to ruupa-jhaana and aruupa-jhaana, but not at the same time as jhaanacitta. Nina. #83124 From: han tun Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (9) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind comments. What happens at the very first moment of life, in relation to root condition is also very interesting. You have described it very nicely in your book, which I wish to quote herewith: Quote: [As regards root-condition, hetu-paccaya, at the first moment of life, if the rebirth-consciousness, patisandhi-citta, is accompanied by roots, these roots condition the citta and accompanying cetasikas by way of root-condition. The patisandhi-citta cannot produce ruupa, but, in the planes where there are naama and ruupa, the five khandha planes, the ruupa arising at the moment of birth is produced by kamma. Thus, both the patisandhi-citta and the ruupa which arises at the same moment are result of kamma, a deed previously done. In the case of human beings, kamma produces at the first moment of life three groups of ruupa, one group with the heartbase, one group with sex (male or female) and one group with bodysense. Since the kamma which produces naama and ruupa at the moment of birth is of different degrees, the mental result and the bodily result are also of different degrees. We can see that human beings are born with different mental and bodily capacities. Some people are beautiful, some ugly, some are apt to few illnesses, some to many illnesses. The patisandhi-citta may be ahetuka (rootless) and in that case one is born handicapped. Or the patisandhi-citta may be accompanied by two or three sobhana hetus, depending on the degree of kusala kamma which produces it. These hetus are of different degrees. When the patisandhi-citta is rooted in sobhana hetus, these hetus condition the citta, the accompanying cetasikas and the ruupas which are produced by kamma and which arise at the same time as the patisandhi-citta. Thus we see that the diversity of the naama and ruupa of human beings from the moment of birth is dependent on conditions.] End Quote. Thank you very much, Nina. Respectfully, Han #83125 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/23/2008 10:08:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Howard In a message dated 2/23/2008 1:06:44 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: It's not 100% clear to me what you are saying here. How is it that (you are saying that) the arising of the cluster of requisite conditions for the arising of a phenomenon is also the cause of its cessation? ........................................................... NEW TG: Think about it. As phenomena arise, isn't there change occurring in "previous" phenomena simultaneously? Of course there is. It is the dynamics of the process of conditionality that is the change and impermanence therein. The change is relative to the conditions "at play." -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, okay, I understand you a bit better. The arising of any phenomenon is a state change that, if nothing else, results in the "cessation of a prior absence". Perhaps you're thinking of something like the following: My hand, quite comfortable at the moment, gets burned, and it then hurts. The dhammas of will, distraction, motion (air element), heat, etc, etc all involved in "the burning of the hand" result in pain. Prior to that pain, there was comfort in the hand. The "comfort has gone" or "the comfort has changed to (or has been displaced by) pain" are things that people might say. But we can almost ALWAYS counterpose presence and absence of a phenomenon, thinking of each as a condition and the other as its displacement or its absence. Sometimes its hard to say which, or whether either, is primary, but at other times it IS. I think we need to be wary of speaking of cessations of absences. If that's what you have in mind, its an interesting perspective, but it just doesn't "say a lot" to me. In the hand-burning example, I'd sooner say that there had been no pain, but the burning of the hand changed conditions by causing pain to arise. ------------------------------------------------------------ ............................................... Is it that the cluster of requisite conditions is needed not only for the arising of the phenomenon, but also for *sustaining* it, so that when the conditions in the cluster subside, so does the caused phenomenon? .................................................... NEW TG: The above isn't my idea and still doesn't explain the cause for impermanence. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's right. it doesn't. in fact, it's really just a sort of reformulation. But I don't think that what you're saying does either. ----------------------------------------------- My idea is that "contact" between "forces," that we can call "conditions," is forcibly altering those conditions into a different form. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I know that you have a "push-pull" energy view of things, but that isn't my perspective. I'm inclined to see things as a play of mental and physical events that interact in a way describable merely by this/that conditionality. I don't see change occurring in quite the continuous ebb & flow, transformational way that you do, though I do see that as an aesthetically pleasing picture. I also don't see it oppositely in the staccato, discrete-sequence, film-frame, manner of some others on DSG. I see it more "matter of factly" in that conditions in effect at this moment, will, at a future time not be in effect, and conversely, conditions presently not in effect may be in effect in the future. Sometimes this operates in what looks like "continuous change" and other times like "discrete change", but the fact of the matter is just this/that conditionality. And one metaphor is useful for some purposes, and the other for other purposes. My bottom line on this issue is that impermanence is best "explainable" by idappaccayata as in SN 12.61, where the following is given: When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that._[2]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratitya-samutpada#_note-1) Imasmiṃ sati, idaṃ hoti. Imass’ uppÄ?dÄ?, idaṃ uppajjati. Imasmiṃ asati, idaṃ na hoti. Imassa nirodhÄ?, idhaṃ nirujjhati. ------------------------------------------------- It is displacing them. Hence, impermanence. In years and years and years of applying this idea, I have never found a case where it failed to work as a reason and cause for things being impermanent. The argument below is not based on my ideas and I distance myself from any of its conclusions or lack thereof. I will point out that you end that argument with another BECAUSE which doesn't mean anything edifying in my view. It just suggest that there is no answer, which is a proposition I don't agree with. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: As I see it, any explanatory chain has to be brought to an end. The end occurs for a particular person at the point that s/he is satisfied. I stop the chain of explanation with idappacayata/conditionality as described above, for that is where I find myself satisfied, and I see nothing further to say. ------------------------------------------------------ TG OUT =========================== With metta, Howard #83126 From: han tun Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (91) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for bringing out the Buddha’s ability to know the disposition of other people. The books say that the Buddhas possess six ~naanas which even Paccekabuddhas or Arahants do not have. The two of them, aasayaanusaya ~naana and indriya-paropariyatta ~naana would be involved in this case. I like your recounting of India episode when you swallowed the breakfast with liquid. For recounting of such examples of day to day experiences, I think no one can excel you! Respectfully, Han #83127 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:42 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, In each Sutta the Abhidhamma and vipassanå are implied. The Abhidhamma explains ultimate realities and these are the objects of insight. People at the Buddha's time had no misunderstandings about this, but since we are further away from the Buddha's time we need more detailed explanations. The Commentaries clearly explain about the Abhidhamma and its application in the development of insight. Without the commentaries we would be lost. We need endless patience and perseverance in the development of vipassanå. We have to consider nåma and rúpa and be aware of them so that we become familiar with their different characteristics. It has to be remembered that nåma experiences an object and that rúpa does not experience anything. We can be inspired by people’s patience at the time of the Bodhisatta Sumedha. We read in the “Chronicle of the Buddhas” (Buddhavaósa, II a Sumedha, vs. 71-76) that the Buddha, during his life as the Bodhisatta Sumedha, was proclaimed a future Buddha by the Buddha Dípaòkara. We read about people’s reactions to this event: 71. When they had heard these words of the great seer who was without an equal, men and deities, rejoicing, thought: “Sprout of the Buddha- seed is this”. 72. The sounds of acclamation went on; the (inhabitants of the )ten- thousand (world-system) with the devas clapped their hands, laughed and paid homage with clasped hands. 73. (Saying) “If we should fail of the Dispensation of this protector of the world, in the distant future we will be face to face with this one....” The Bodhisatta Sumedha had to develop all the perfections for aeons in order to attain Buddhahood, and people at that time had great patience. They had courage and perseverance to continue developing right understanding and all the other perfections for aeons so that they would attain the goal. When we consider how long it takes to develop paññå we can think with respect and gratefulness of the Buddha who had endless patience to develop the perfections for our sake, so that we would have the opportunity to develop understanding at this moment. Acharn Sujin said, “When you think of the aeons it takes to develop understanding you are actually praising the Buddha’s excellent qualities.” ******** Nina. #83128 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/23/2008 10:25:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: For example, if I say DOG DOG DOG ... very likely some though will arise in your mind related to a dog. Possibly a mental picture of one. So this condition -- this email where I type DOG, is a "new" condition" that affects your mind and removes whatever idea you had prior to that contact (oh so briefly perhaps.) The "new" condition" changes the "old" condition. This is happening continuously in the mind at a very high rate with much complexity. This is an example of "combining of conditions." The "new" condition changes the "old" condition simultaneously. (mental factor constellations in this case) Impermanence "has to be," this is true. But it "has to be" for a reason. =============================== Giving of reasons can't be perpetual. What you are pointing to here is the cessation of one object of consciousness due to a new object arising, the fact being that there can only be one object of consciousness at a time. That IS a situation that is well described by what you have been saying. It explains one mode of change/impermanence, that of change of objects of consciousness, by the principle "There can only be one object of consciousness at a time". It does take that aspect of the explanatory chain for impermanence one step further in the way of "reduction". Now, do you need to go on and explain that single-object principle?? ;-) Also, this does not explain change/impermanence of rupas etc that are not objects of consciousness (if such are countenanced by you) nor of cetasikas, which can and do co-occur. With metta, Howard #83129 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/24/2008 1:25:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi TG, I wonder if you can find the cause for impermanence in craving. Craving is craving what you don't have. That dynamic of positive and negative energy seems to create a perpetual motion machine. Larry ============================ I think there might be some validity to that for one who takes a radical phenomenalist view of "the world". With metta, Howard #83130 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/24/2008 7:43:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: In each Sutta the Abhidhamma and vipassanå are implied. ============================== I think that is very much of an overstatement. I believe that statement more reflects a view of the triumphalism of Abhidhamma over the rest of the Tipataka and an identification of Abhidhamma with vipassana, than it reflects objective reality. There are loads of suttas having nothing expressly to do with Abhidhamma or vipassana, even some technical ones such as the Kalaka Sutta. The opposite view is, I think, only possible for one who sees Abhidhamma as the whole of the Dhamma. For me, Abhidhamma being the whole of the dhamma is an extreme, and Buddhadasa's dictum of Abhidhamma as "excess Dhamma" is the opposite extreme, and the truth lies in the middle. With metta, Howard #83131 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:09 am Subject: Back to Basics…!!! bhikkhu0 Friends How to protect oneself & all other beings best? 5All Good & Golden Rules: Do neither Kill nor praise Killing. Rather avoid taking any kind of Life. Also make others stop killing too by praising harmlessness & non- cruelty. Greatest is this Offer to the world of Beings: The safety from violent murder! Painful future karmic effect of Killing is short lifetime & brutal non-natural death! Do neither Harm nor praise any kind of Harming, whether instrumental, mental, verbal or physical. Put down the stick, knife, sword, & all weapons. Indeed end now all violence, brutality & hostility! Still all aggression by praising mercy & peace. Greatest is this Offer to the world of Beings: The safety from injury, wounding & sudden pain. The painful future karmic effects of Harming are non-curable disease, disability, & loss of limbs. Do neither Steal nor praise any kind of Stealing. Avoid taking what is not freely given. Make others abstain from Theft by praising modesty & honesty. Greatest is this Relief to the world of Owners: The safety from loss, damage & undue costs to insurances. The painful future karmic effect of Stealing is loss, poverty, need, deficiency, hunger, & thirst. Do neither abuse sexually nor praise any abuse. Avoid other’s partners & those engaged or protected. Make all others abstain from any sexual abuse too. Greatest is this Offer to any parent or lover: The safety from deceit, adultery, & sexual abuse. The painful future karmic effect of abuse & adultery is future sexual abnormality, disability or much worse. Do neither Speak False nor praise any kind of Lying. Rather avoid all Untruth & Falsehood and induce all others also to speak only Truth by praising sincerity. Greatest is this Praxis in the world of Beings: Honesty ensuring the confidence of trust among many beings. Greatest is this Offer to the world of Beings: The painful future karmic effect of lying is being deceived, disrespected, lowly positioned or worse. Do neither drink alcohol nor praise any kind of intoxication that induces neglect, & lax carelessness. Rather refrain from liquor & make all others abstain too. This is the optimal social habit of behaviour in the world of beings ensuring decency, sanity & sound reasoning. The painful future karmic effect of drinking is stupidity, insanity, madness, forgetfulness, poor memory and worse. There are these five gifts, five great gifts original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning that are not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and, which never are censured by any truly wise recluse & priest! <...> Back to Basics! http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Back_to_Basics.htm Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #83132 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:31 am Subject: Hetu and Paccaya for Ditthi dhammanusara Dear Scott (Nina, Howard, TG, James and other friends), - We discussed ruupa in the Dhammasangani lately, and there were two terms 'cause' and 'condition' in my translation : All forms are not a cause, without a cause, separated from causes, associated with paccaya, ... After your timely Pali help I learned that hetu meant root-condition (and in some translation I have seen 'root-cause' for hetu) not 'cause' and paccaya meant 'condition'. Today I checked with the Patisambhidamagga in Threatise II, on Views, and found the following passages very interesting -- so I thought of you and our DSG friends. .................. What are the eight kinds of standpoints for views? (i) The aggregates are a standpoint for views, (ii) ignorance is a standpoint for views, (iii) contact ..., (iv) perception ..., (v) applied-thought ..., (vi) careless attention ..., (vii) a bad friend ..., (viii) indoctrination by another is a standpoint for views. Katamaani attha ditthitthaanaani? (i) Khandhaapi ditthitthaanam, (ii) avijjaapi ditthitthaanam, (iii) phassopi ditthitthaanam, (iv) sa~n~naapi ditthitthaanam, (v) vitakkopi ditthitthaanam, (vi) ayoniso manasikaaropi ditthitthaanam, (vii) paapimittopi ditthitthaanam, (viii) parato ghosopi ditthitthaanam. ------------------------------ The aggreagtes are a cause, the aggregates are a condition, in the sense of origination, for the arising of views, thus the aggregates are a standpoint for views. Ignorance ... Contact ... Perception ... Applied-thought ... Careless attention ... A bad friend ... Indoctrination by another is a cause, indoctrination by another is a condition, in the sense of origination, for the arising of views, thus indoctrination by another is a standpoint for views. These are the eight kinds of standpoints for views. Khandhaa hetu khandhaa paccayo ditthitthaanam upaadaaya samutthaanatthena, evam khandhaapi ditthitthaanm. Avijjaa hetu Phasso hetu Sa~n~naa hetu Vitakko hetu Ayoniso manasikaaro hetu Paapamitto hetu Paratoghoso hetu paratoghoso paccayo ditthitthaanam upaadaaya samutthaanatthena, evam parato ghosopi ditthitthaanam. Imaani attha ditthitthaanaati. ..................... Note: The Pali version was kindly provided by our good friend Han Tun. I think you might find the Patism passages above delightful too. Tep === #83133 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani /ruupa nilovg Hi Tep, Op 24-feb-2008, om 2:48 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Questions: > 1. What determines whether a rupa is kamma-fabricated or not? ------- N: Rupas arise in groups. Some groups of rupas of the body originate from kamma, some from citta, some from heat, some from nutrition. The senseorgans, sex, heartbase are produced solely by kamma. Kamma keeps on producing these throughout life. Each group produced by kamma has the rupa jiivitindriya, life faculty. These kammaja ruupas are designated as 'grasped at', upadi.n.na. ------- > T:2. What does "citta-Samutthaana" mean? I am not sure it means > 'arising > from consciousness'. ------- N: originated by citta. Citta produces groups of rupas of the body, consisting of the eight inseparable rupas; the four Great Eelement, colour, odour, flavour, and nutritive essense. There are rupas solely produced by citta: bodily and verbal intimation. These are gestures and speech and convey a meaning. The passage you refer to, by threes, are beginning at § 585. The Thai numbering is different. Rhys D. does not translate these, but U Kyaw Khine (another transl of the Dhsg) has these. I think it is O.K. just to give the link as you do, instead of the signs at the end. Nina. #83134 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 5. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 24-feb-2008, om 14:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > For me, Abhidhamma being the whole of the dhamma > is an extreme, and Buddhadasa's dictum of Abhidhamma as "excess > Dhamma" is the > opposite extreme, and the truth lies in the middle. ------ N: I was thinking of the sutta on the manifold elements: dhammas appearing now. Objects of awareness and understanding. Abhidhamma: do not just think of book, think of realities. Did the Buddha not teach realities for fortyfive years? Even in so called technical suttas: Kalaka sutta, which one is this? Nothing triumphant about this view, there is no reason whatsoever to be triumphant. Nina. #83135 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani /ruupa dhammanusara Hi Howard (Nina), You kindly asked: > Tep, excuse me, but I'm confused as to what this is. Are you continuing with the material after 503 and 521 here, or soon? (For that matter, I didn't understand why the two paragraph numbers weren't consecutive.) > Tep: The Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion was formed by Nina's suggestion that while I study the Abhidhamma (from Book 1 to Book 7 in one year), whenever I find something that I want to discuss or get her help, I should write her a few lines now and then. Based on that premise, the discussion is not supposed to sequentially proceed from paragraph 1 to the last paragraph of Book 1, etc., because several paragraphs are either too difficult or not interesting to me. So my plan is to jump like a frog from one lotus leaf to another one in the same pond, in the skipping & skimming fashion. When I am done with Book 1, I will proceed to Book 2, and so on. Hence there may be 100 questions I may find in a book, but only a few in another book. Of course, I shall be glad to modify my frog-jump approach as much as I can possibly accomodate. ;-) Tep === #83136 From: "connie" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:25 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 52 16. Mahaanipaato Conclusion "Aaropesu.m mahaatheraa, theriigaathaati taadino; taasa.m attha.m pakaasetu.m, poraa.na.t.thakathaanaya.m. "Nissaaya yaa samaaraddhaa, atthasa.mva.n.nanaa mayaa; saa tattha paramatthaana.m, tattha tattha yathaaraha.m. "Pakaasanaa paramatthadiipanii, naama naamato; In order to revail the meaning of them according to the manner of the old commentaries, relying on them, this commentary was undertaken by me. Those highest truths (paramatthaana.m) that were made known here and there as was appropriate are named the Paramatthadiipanii ("The Explanation of the Highest Truth"). RD: To elucidate the import of that work Three Older Commentaries are extant. *453 Thereto this exegesis I have tried T' indite, the which, in that where'er 'twas fit, I strove to set the highest meaning forth, I named the Paramattha-Diipanii; *453 On these, see my Buddhist Psychology, xx.-xxii. sampattaa parini.t.thaana.m, anaakulavinicchayaa; dvaanavutiparimaa.naa, paa.liyaa bhaa.navaarato. "Iti ta.m sa"nkharontena, ya.m ta.m adhigata.m mayaa; pu~n~na.m tassaanubhaavena, lokanaathassa saasana.m. "Ogaahetvaa visuddhaaya, siilaadipa.tipattiyaa; sabbepi dehino hontu, vimuttirasabhaagino. This unconfused detailed analysis of ninety-two sections of text for recitation has reached its conclusion. By the power of whatever merit has been attained by me through this effort, may all beings plunge into the teaching of the Protector of the World. Through the purified practice of virtuous conduct, etc, may they share in the taste of freedom. RD: The whole whereof, now finished to the end, By orderly decision is arranged, For recitation from the sacred text, In chapters of the number ninety-two. Thus by the efficacy of such good As has accrued to me, by me applied, Have I made bright the glory of the word, The system, of the Sovran of the world; That, by their pure attainment in all truth And virtue, mortals all may come to taste The essence of emancipation won. "Cira.m ti.t.thatu lokasmi.m, sammaasambuddhasaasana.m; tasmi.m sagaaravaa nicca.m, hontu sabbepi paa.nino. "Sammaa vassatu kaalena, devopi jagatiipati; saddhammanirato loka.m, dhammeneva pasaasatuu"ti. Badaratitthavihaaravaasinaa aacariyadhammapaalattherena Kataa May the teaching of the Fully and Perfectly Awakened One endure for a long time in the world. May all living beings be continually respectful [of it]. May the [sky] deva also rain properly at the right time. May the ruler of the world be deeply devoted to the true Doctrine, and may he govern the world justly. RD: Long may the Very Buddha's Word and Law Abide, and ever may it be revered By every creature that hath life and breath! And may the weather-god in season due Send rain on earth, and may the powers that be Govern the world as lovers of the Norm! Theriigaathaana.m atthasa.mva.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Theriigaathaa-a.t.thakathaa ni.t.thitaa. RD: Thus endeth the Commentary on the Therigaathaa, by the Teacher, Brother Dhammapaala, residing at the Padara-Tittha-Vihaara. PRUITT: Here ends the Commentary on the Verses of the Theriis. Here ends the entire commentary, prepared by me so the meaning of the Doctrine may long endure. Through whatever good has been obtained through the power of that, may all living creatures practise the Doctrine of the King of the True Doctrine that brings happiness. Through a practice that is purified and pleasant, may they attain the supreme happiness of quenching, which is free from troubles, free from grief. May the True Doctrine endure for a long time. May all beings be respectful of the Doctrine. May the [sky-]deva rain properly at the right time. May this be the means to quenching. ::::::::::::::::: RD: http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html Pruitt: PTS 1999 - The Commentary on the Verses of the Theriis txt: vri {verse numbers off one from 291; two from 340; pali #'s higher.} ======= The end. connie #83137 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Dear Colette, - You wrote: > C: > since I don't get much time on a computer I can't reply properly, > now, but fully intend to, hopefully next wk.. I'm heavy into > Nargarjuna's Mulamadhyamaka and will begin looking for his other main > pc. which is to avoid the arguments. VErses From the Center comes to > mind, no. > T: I know nothing about Nargarjuna's Mulamadhyamaka, Colette. Therefore, I will be glad to learn from your post whenever you have time to write. Thank you very much. Tep === #83138 From: "connie" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:45 am Subject: Vism.XVII,242 nichiconn Path of Purity, pp.683-4: "And by the brief and full accounts of states": - the firmness of craving is briefly stated in the text: "What herein is the grasping of sense-desires? That sensous desire, sensuous passion, sensuous delight, sensuous craving, sensuous cleaving, sensuous fever, sensuous languishing, sensuous reciprocity, which is excited by the pleasures of the senses - this is called the grasping of sense-desires." {Dhammasa"nga.nii, §1214} Firmness of craving means the subsequent craving which derives its firmness through the cause of the sufficing conditions of the previous craving. Now, say some, that craving is a longing for an object not yet attained, like the stretched-out hand of a thief in the dark; that grasping is the seizing of an object that is attained, like the seizing of treasure by the thief; that fewness of wishes and contentment are their opposing states; further, that they are the roots of the ills of having to search and keep watch. The remaining three graspings are briefly just views. #83139 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nilovg Dear Connie, Thank you for your great work. Where in the archives can we find the whole of it? Nina. Op 24-feb-2008, om 15:25 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > May the True Doctrine endure for a long time. May all beings be > respectful of the Doctrine. May the [sky-]deva rain properly at the > right time. > May this be the means to quenching. > ======= > The end. > #83140 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/24/2008 9:20:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 24-feb-2008, om 14:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > For me, Abhidhamma being the whole of the dhamma > is an extreme, and Buddhadasa's dictum of Abhidhamma as "excess > Dhamma" is the > opposite extreme, and the truth lies in the middle. ------ N: I was thinking of the sutta on the manifold elements: dhammas appearing now. Objects of awareness and understanding. Abhidhamma: do not just think of book, think of realities. --------------------------------------------- Howard: This should be called "Dhamma," not "Abhidhamma." I agree that there are suttas that deal primarily with vipassana, but there are many that do not. I also agree that there are suttas that include more of the material discussed in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, but it is putting the cart before the horse to refer to that material as "Abhidhamma". It's all dhamma, Nina. ---------------------------------------------- Did the Buddha not teach realities for fortyfive years? --------------------------------------------- Howard: He taught reality (singular) for 45 years. Mainly, he taught suffering and its ending via teaching the tilakkhana, the eightfold path of practice, and dependent origination. --------------------------------------------- Even in so called technical suttas: Kalaka sutta, which one is this? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: AN IV.24 ------------------------------------------------ Nothing triumphant about this view, there is no reason whatsoever to be triumphant. Nina. ========================== With metta, Howard #83141 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:56 am Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani /ruupa dhammanusara Dear Nina (Howard), - Thank you for the excellent reply that you kindly gave for the two questions. Your reply helps me to better understand Khun Sujin's Survey on seeing and visible ruupa. I think now I have found a magic formula to get the best answer from you for a given question -- it takes time for me to learn to formulate the right question. When an answer is not satisfactory, I have found that more often than not it is caused by a question that is not clear. I apologize for the past mistakes. > Nina: > The passage you refer to, by threes, are beginning at § 585. The Thai > numbering is different. > Rhys D. does not translate these, but U Kyaw Khine (another transl of > the Dhsg) has these. > I think it is O.K. just to give the link as you do, instead of the > signs at the end. T: I am jumping from one spot in the Book 1 to another, depending on my interest. Do you expect me to proceed without skipping any paragraph at all ? [See Howard's post.] If by providing the link to a section or a page on the Thai text at www.84000.org is enough, then from now I will skip the Thai text because it is not useful for other members who do not read Thai. Tep === #83142 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani /ruupa upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 2/24/2008 9:27:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Howard (Nina), You kindly asked: > Tep, excuse me, but I'm confused as to what this is. Are you continuing with the material after 503 and 521 here, or soon? (For that matter, I didn't understand why the two paragraph numbers weren't consecutive.) > Tep: The Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion was formed by Nina's suggestion that while I study the Abhidhamma (from Book 1 to Book 7 in one year), whenever I find something that I want to discuss or get her help, I should write her a few lines now and then. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, I'm sorry - I misunderstood. I thought we were going to be taken by the hand along with you as you go through the main books of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. -------------------------------------------- Based on that premise, the discussion is not supposed to sequentially proceed from paragraph 1 to the last paragraph of Book 1, etc., because several paragraphs are either too difficult or not interesting to me. So my plan is to jump like a frog from one lotus leaf to another one in the same pond, in the skipping & skimming fashion. When I am done with Book 1, I will proceed to Book 2, and so on. Hence there may be 100 questions I may find in a book, but only a few in another book. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, I see. --------------------------------------------- Of course, I shall be glad to modify my frog-jump approach as much as I can possibly accomodate. ;-) -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, its my own obligation to learn what I can of the third basket without imposing requirements on others. Please proceed as seems best to you & Nina. I will note, though, that for the others on the list who are even more "beginners" than I and who don't have materials of their own, this project will probably be of very little help. -------------------------------------------------- Tep =========================== With metta, Howard #83143 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 5. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 24-feb-2008, om 15:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Even in so called > technical suttas: Kalaka sutta, which one is this? > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > > AN IV.24 ----- N: You mean about the great sacrifice? It is full of paramattha dhammas, explained in common language: evil qualities, good qualities. Abstaining from akusala, calming and cooling 'self'. Nina. #83144 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani /ruupa nilovg Hi Tep, Op 24-feb-2008, om 15:56 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Do you expect me to proceed without skipping any > paragraph at all ? [See Howard's post.] ------ N: Then we shall not be able to go through the whole of the abh, which you wanted to do. I think it depends on your inclination, any part is good for discussion. Nina. #83145 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani /ruupa nilovg Hi Howard and Tep, Op 24-feb-2008, om 15:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I will note, though, that for the others on the list who are even more > "beginners" than I and who don't have materials of their own, this > project will > probably be of very little help. ------ N: Any part is difficult. So, when Tep comes to a certain para, it is good to always add some basics, that won't hurt. We can repeat basics all the time, never boring. Nina. #83146 From: "connie" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:32 am Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Nina, Nina: Thank you for your great work. Where in the archives can we find the whole of it? Connie: Sarah has the individual posts listed in the DSG Yahoo Groups Files Section, Useful Posts, under Sisters. As far as a single file, I'm sorry to say I didn't keep one but deleted each section from my working file as I sent it. best wishes, connie #83147 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani /ruupa dhammanusara Dear friends Howard, Nina, Scott (and other beginners in Abhidhamma learning), - I summarized my plan of the Beginner's Corner as follows. > > So my plan is to jump like a frog from one lotus leaf to another in the same pond, in the skipping & skimming fashion. When I am done with Book 1, I will proceed to Book 2, and so on. Hence there may be 100 questions I may find in a book, but only a few in another book. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay, I see. > --------------------------------------------- T: I am glad you got the point. > Of course, I shall be glad to modify my frog-jump approach as much as I can possibly accomodate. ;-) > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, its my own obligation to learn what I can of the third basket > without imposing requirements on others. Please proceed as seems best to you & Nina. I will note, though, that for the others on the list who are even more "beginners" than I and who don't have materials of their own, this project will probably be of very little help. > -------------------------------------------------- T: Certainly, certainly ! I agree that important point -- by my frog-junp approach the project's utility will be greatly reduced. But the "grand plan" to cover the whole Abhidhamma Pitaka would take a lot of effort (and sacrifice) from Nina, or whoever willing to be our guide/teacher of the Abhidhamma, and our good friend Scott because of lots of Pali text typing over a few years at least. May I suggest a better plan? If you would be willing to buy the best English translation of the Abhidhamma (or if you already bought one), then you could post your own questions anytime, and as often as you wish, for the members to partcipate in a discussion. And by that plan, Nina and Scott will be set free. Well, that is my thought. Tep === #83148 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani /ruupa dhammanusara Hi Howard and Nina (Scott), - It is very good to talk about how to manage this Beginner's Abhidhamma corner to find a near-optimal plan, subject to constraints on our time and interests. > Howard: > > I will note, though, that for the others on the list who are even more > > "beginners" than I and who don't have materials of their own, this > > project will > > probably be of very little help. > ------ > N: Any part is difficult. So, when Tep comes to a certain para, it is > good to always add some basics, that won't hurt. We can repeat basics all the time, never boring. ......................... T: Nina's suggestion is a very good improvement/amendment to my frog- jump approach. It is also good because this is less taxing to Nina's time and Scott's time. Thanks, Nina. Tep === #83149 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, I think you disagreed with me regarding clinging to the 5 cords of sensual pleasure as the source of all other clinging. If so, then we still have to explain why we have only 5 cords and not 6. You could say the 5 cords are rupa, but they aren't even all of rupa. You could say the 5 cords are gross and mental objects are subtle, but why aren't mental objects, or exclusively mental objects, mentioned as a category in the dependent arising definition of clinging? There must be a reason for this omission. It isn't something Buddhaghosa invented. The same definition is in the suttas. Larry #83150 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 2/24/2008 1:25:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > LBIDD@... writes: > > Hi TG, > > I wonder if you can find the cause for impermanence in craving. Craving > is craving what you don't have. That dynamic of positive and negative > energy seems to create a perpetual motion machine. > > Larry > > > ============================ > I think there might be some validity to that for one who takes a radical > phenomenalist view of "the world". > > With metta, > Howard > > Hi Howard, Maybe so. I couldn't quite come up with the right concepts. How do you see it? Larry #83151 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/24/2008 10:07:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 24-feb-2008, om 15:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Even in so called > technical suttas: Kalaka sutta, which one is this? > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > > AN IV.24 ----- N: You mean about the great sacrifice? It is full of paramattha dhammas, explained in common language: evil qualities, good qualities. Abstaining from akusala, calming and cooling 'self'. Nina. ================================== Huh? With metta, Howard AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta At Kalaka's Park Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: A ii 23 ____________________________________ Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. ____________________________________ Copyright © 2002 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 2002 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. ____________________________________ On one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Saketa at Kalaka's park. There he addressed the monks: "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said: "Monks, whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know. That has been realized by the Tathagata, but in the Tathagata_1_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.024.than.html#n-1) it has not been established._2_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.024.than.html#n-2) "If I were to say, 'I don't know whatever in the cosmos... is seen, heard, sensed, cognized... pondered by the intellect,' that would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say, 'I both know and don't know whatever in the cosmos... is seen, heard, sensed, cognized... pondered by the intellect,' that would be just the same. If I were to say, 'I neither know nor don't know whatever in the cosmos... is seen, heard, sensed, cognized... pondered by the intellect,' that would be a fault in me. "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. Thus, monks, the Tathagata — being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized — is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime. "Whatever is seen or heard or sensed and fastened onto as true by others, One who is Such — among the self-fettered — wouldn't further claim to be true or even false. "Having seen well in advance that arrow where generations are fastened & hung — 'I know, I see, that's just how it is!' — there's nothing of the Tathagata fastened." #83152 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/24/2008 11:32:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 2/24/2008 1:25:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > LBIDD@... writes: > > Hi TG, > > I wonder if you can find the cause for impermanence in craving. Craving > is craving what you don't have. That dynamic of positive and negative > energy seems to create a perpetual motion machine. > > Larry > > > ============================ > I think there might be some validity to that for one who takes a radical > phenomenalist view of "the world". > > With metta, > Howard > > Hi Howard, Maybe so. I couldn't quite come up with the right concepts. How do you see it? Larry =============================== Well, as you know, my perspective IS phenomenalist, seeing "reality" as consisting of an interconnected (or interpenetrating) network of experiential streams. I do see the motor for arising of phenomena to be will, though not necessarily only tanha-infected will), but the cessation of what arises I still just see as a matter of natural fact. With metta, Howard #83153 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/24/2008 1:05:35 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi TG, I guess the real test case is what is the cause of the impermanence of bhavanga citta. Bhavanga citta repeats the exact same thought over and over until it is interrupted by an object of consciousness. The interruption fits your model but what causes the basic impermanence of repetition? Another thorny case: during nirodha samapatti all consciousness stops, including bhavanga, but the life force rupa continues to repeat. Why so? We could say "kamma" but that doesn't explain why they fall apart, so to speak, and therefore need to be repeated. Why not one long term 'buz' rather than little moments of repetition? Larry .................................................... Hi Larry I'm not suggesting little moments of repetition or one long buzz. I'm suggesting that change is relative to conditional circumstances. Depending on conditions, that change will unfold at various rates from our perspective. The change is continuous yes, but some things, from our perspective, will seem to change very little or very slowly, and other will be extremely fast...depending on the conditional circumstances. Impermanence is inherent in conditionality due to those very dynamics of conditionality. Impermanence is not a separate feature, it is just a separate way of thinking about conditionality. Impermanence is part of what conditionality is. Thanks for your interest. TG #83154 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Larry) - In a message dated 2/24/2008 11:51:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Larry I'm not suggesting little moments of repetition or one long buzz. I'm suggesting that change is relative to conditional circumstances. Depending on conditions, that change will unfold at various rates from our perspective. The change is continuous yes, but some things, from our perspective, will seem to change very little or very slowly, and other will be extremely fast...depending on the conditional circumstances. Impermanence is inherent in conditionality due to those very dynamics of conditionality. Impermanence is not a separate feature, it is just a separate way of thinking about conditionality. Impermanence is part of what conditionality is. Thanks for your interest. TG ================================= TG, I agree with you that conditionality takes the lead. By its inclusion of dependent origination, it covers all three of the tilakkhana. With metta, Howard #83155 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:03 am Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... dhammanusara Hi James, - I enjoyed good comments you made, but some of them are debatable since it is not possible for us to agree in everything (even once in a while). Tep: > As a 'systematic account of reality' of the dhamma the > Abhidhamma Pitaka draws a line that separates right view from wrong > views about the dhammas and makes it clear about the true meaning of > the truths (knowledge, vijja) among so many other things. James: So, here I take it that to you the Abhidhamma constitutes right view or enhances right view? T: It explains right view and gives more details of the various kinds of pa~n~na (that includes samma-ditthi). As I see it, the Abhidhamma (excluding commentaries) expounds the theoretical principles that are very good at explaining the sutta teachings that lack some details. The suttas, on the other hand, deals with the practical aspects that are not given in the Abhdhamma. Most of the discourses given by the Chief Disciple Sariputta overlap more with the Abhdhamma Pitaka than the Buddha's or other Arahants' discourse. That has been my observation. .................... James: The very thing the Abhidhamma is supposed to destroy- view of self- it actually reinforces. This is why you see Nina writing to Han "It is because of your kusala citta...." whose kusala citta? Is there a self which owns that kusala citta? You see, it is impossible to destroy view of self with the dhamma theory because the deluded mind automatically reifies everything it encounters. T: It is true that the dhamma theory is based on right view that is free from attanuditthi(views on identity or self) and mana (I-sense). Although I have read the Abhidhamma Pitaka no more than 10% at this point in time (but tomorrow may never come, so let's discuss it while I'm still living), I do not think that the Abhidhamma "reinforces" self views. Take a paragraph from the Patism that is in line with the Abhidhamma on views (more in message #83182): "The aggreagtes are a cause, the aggregates are a condition, in the sense of origination, for the arising of views, thus the aggregates are a standpoint for views. Ignorance ... Contact ... Perception ... Applied-thought ... Careless attention ... A bad friend ... Indoctrination by another is a cause, indoctrination by another is a condition, in the sense of origination, for the arising of views, thus indoctrination by another is a standpoint for views. These are the eight kinds of standpoints for views". It is clear to me that the above passage states hetu(causes) and paccaya (conditions) that support the arising of views, one of which is about self. There is nothing that "reinforces" views here. "What are the sixteen kinds of views? They are: (i) (hedonistic) gratification views, (ii) views about self. (iii) wrong view, (iv) views about individuality, (v) views of eternity based on individuality, (vi) views of annihilation based on individuality, (vii) views assuming finiteness, (viii) views about past finiteness, (ix) views about future finiteness, (x) views that fetter [to harm], (xi) views that shackle with the conceit 'I', (xii) views that shackle with the conceit 'mine', (xiii) views associated with self-theories, (xiv) views associated with world-theories, (xv) view of being [as eternity], (xvi) view of non-being [as annihilation]. These are the sixteen kinds of views". [Patism. Treatise II, on views.] ............................ James: I will pop in when the mood strikes me and time allows. :-) BTW, I admire your gumption to undertake this project. The only real way to know something is to study it for yourself. T: Thank you for your kind understanding. My undertaking of the project was propelled by the desire(chanda) to learn everything from the three baskets so that I don't have to doubt it when someone says "This is in the Suttas, but that is in the Abhidhamma". .......................... >Tep: I only know from my sutta study that the Buddha sometimes taught his monks to separately contemplate rupa as rupa, and nama as nama. And He sometimes taught them that rupa and nama co-arise and are inter-dependent. So we have to be careful when we read the suttas. James: Yes, the Buddha taught the Four Foundations of Mindfulness; but I think it is a huge mistake to say that those Four Foundations must constitute ultimate reality since the Buddha taught to contemplate them. As I stated, the mind wants to create an ontology from anything in order to justify it's permanent existence (an illusion). T: You are absolutely right to say that any illusion is mind-based (whenever the mind is not yet free from tanha and avijja). Concerning whether only sati(as cetasika) is an ultimate reality, or the four foundations (establishment) also are ultimate reality, we will have to check with the Abhidhamma Pitaka. So one day I will, since as of today I am still lying flat on my back inside the Dhammasangani crib. Regards, Tep == #83156 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... Hi Howard, All In a message dated 2/24/2008 5:31:32 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: NEW TG: Think about it. As phenomena arise, isn't there change occurring in "previous" phenomena simultaneously? Of course there is. It is the dynamics of the process of conditionality that is the change and impermanence therein. The change is relative to the conditions "at play." ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, okay, I understand you a bit better. The arising of any phenomenon is a state change that, if nothing else, results in the "cessation of a prior absence". Perhaps you're thinking of something like the following: My hand, quite comfortable at the moment, gets burned, and it then hurts. The dhammas of will, distraction, motion (air element), heat, etc, etc all involved in "the burning of the hand" result in pain. Prior to that pain, there was comfort in the hand. The "comfort has gone" or "the comfort has changed to (or has been displaced by) pain" are things that people might say. ................................................... NEW TG: This above is right. The example is very simple which is good for purposes of investigation. Since conditions are continuously interacting, the change is continuous but relative to the conditional circumstances. The arising of a "cluster of conditions" (if you will) happens in various ways depending on the conditional factors involves. As "some conditions" move into place to form a formation that our minds can identify, as this occurs, it displaces other conditions that were previously configured in a different manner. So in your example, your mind may have been "at ease" and your body relatively still before your hand got burned. As you hand was getting burned, perhaps an uncountable amount of conditions changed, but to keep it simple, well focus on just a few. The previous calm feeling is replaced/displaced by extreme feeling of heat and pain. Your calm mind changes and is displaced by pain and aversion to that pain. this cause you to jerk your hand away from the conditions that are causing the pain, run to the water faucet, swear like like a sailor, (I thought I'd throw that in for realism. LOL), make your wife give you a massage to comfort you, call in sick for work, lose your job, move to the poor farm, suffer immensely, seek relief, study Buddhism, become enlightened. I don't know why this turned into a comedy. LOL Anyway, all these changes or the lack of certain ones are dependent on conditional circumstances. As some conditions "fall into place," others must necessarily change as they are displaced by the new ones. As for the pain, it doesn't really disappear, because some of its forces get recorded in your memory and that force/memory will keep you from being careless around hot things...thereby continuing to alter conditional circumstances. ................................................................ But we can almost ALWAYS counterpose presence and absence of a phenomenon, thinking of each as a condition and the other as its displacement or its absence. Sometimes its hard to say which, or whether either, is primary, but at other times it IS. I think we need to be wary of speaking of cessations of absences. If that's what you have in mind, its an interesting perspective, but it just doesn't "say a lot" to me. In the hand-burning example, I'd sooner say that there had been no pain, but the burning of the hand changed conditions by causing pain to arise. -------------------------------------------------------- ................................................................... NEW TG: I wouldn't speak of "cessations of absences" for the world. Seriously. Conditionality is happening in the present and is a simultaneous process. Impermanence is simultaneous and is actually just -- "conditionality in action." The displacement of conditions is constantly occurring. This causes "new" formations to form, and "old" formations to deform or better yet -- disintegrate...due to displacement. We are here just using example of things that aren't actually even things. Just empty phenomena. We just need these example to communicate a meaning. ................................................................. ............................................... Is it that the cluster of requisite conditions is needed not only for the arising of the phenomenon, but also for *sustaining* it, so that when the conditions in the cluster subside, so does the caused phenomenon? .................................................... NEW TG: The above isn't my idea and still doesn't explain the cause for impermanence. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's right. it doesn't. in fact, it's really just a sort of reformulation. But I don't think that what you're saying does either. ----------------------------------------------- My idea is that "contact" between "forces," that we can call "conditions,"conditions," is forcibly altering those conditions into a di ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I know that you have a "push-pull" energy view of things, ......................................................... NEW TG: No, that's my wife's view. Mine's much more sophisticated. ;-) .......................................................... but that isn't my perspective. I'm inclined to see things as a play of mental and physical events that interact in a way describable merely by this/that conditionality. ........................................................... NEW TG: I would agree with this. ....................................................... I don't see change occurring in quite the continuous ebb & flow, transformational way that you do, though I do see that as an aesthetically pleasing picture. ......................................................... NEW TG: But I don't know why this is different then what you said above. Though what you said above is terse and not too explanational. (My computer is telling me "explanational" isn't a word. LOL) ................................................................... I also don't see it oppositely in the staccato, discrete-sequence, film-frame, manner of some others on DSG. I see it more "matter of factly" in that conditions in effect at this moment, will, at a future time not be in effect, and conversely, conditions presently not in effect may be in effect in the future. ..................................................................... NEW TG: True enough, but it doesn't explain anything. What I am talking about is discernable through direct experience and realizing. Watch it, watch the mind/feelings as they change, see the continuity of change as due to the relative conditional interaction. They change in conformity to the relative conditional circumstances. This is impermanence/change in action. But, also easily discerned by watching external phenomena as well. Think of a car driving down the road. As it changes its relationship with the road due to movement, it is burning gas, displacing air, pistons are moving and wearing away, tires are rubbing against the road causing the "tire formation" to change, as well as the road. Due to the road and tires relatively different conditional structure, the tires will alter in a more obvious fashion. Bearing are getting hot and wearing away, the sun is beating down and fading the paint, upholstery. etc., etc., etc. All of these changes are happening simultaneously. They are all changes in formations. The "new" formations are the results of this change. Something we might consider new, like a new born baby, is the result of the change of other conditions as well. Food has changed form, water has changed positions, air, heat, all these things have changed their relative position to establish the new formation. A lot of other positional changes required for conception to actual child birth that I won't go into. Much less the positional change of the consciousness energy of a prior being, theoretically. All of these things are displacements as well. .......................................................................... Sometimes this operates in what looks like "continuous change" and other times like "discrete change", but the fact of the matter is just this/that conditionality. ............................................................... NEW TG: It IS just conditionality yes. The "appearing rate of change" is just due to the conditional circumstances at any given moment or place. This change is continuous, but for us to discern it, it might appear extremely fast like changes in consciousness, or very slow like the changes in a "free floating asteroid." Personally, I think some "Abhidhammist theorist" realized that change is continuous and came to the dubious conclusion that whatever was in the present, must immediately fall away once the present was past. In a way true, but it lead to a "dhammas" view of these bubbling discrete things/entities that pop in and out of existence. It doesn't work that way IMO. Its the wrong way to think about it...and it works against the overview of seeing phenomena as always empty, coreless, alien, etc. This is because it led to the view that -- the present is very real, and that everything else was not real... Setting up a real vs not real dichotomy. It also blinded vision as to why phenomena are impermanent and led to the view that "it just is." This was not a good service for Buddhists IMO. .............................................................. And one metaphor is useful for some purposes, and the other for other purposes. .............................................................. NEW TG: I don't think so. I think its just due to our relative perspective that we might think one better than the other. In actuality, its all based on the relative conditional circumstances. ............................................................. My bottom line on this issue is that impermanence is best "explainable" by idappaccayata as in SN 12.61, where the following is given: When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that._[2]_ (_http://en.wikipediahttp://en.http://enhttp://en.http://_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratitya-samutpada#_note-1) ) Imasmiṃ sati, idaṃ hoti. Imass’ uppÄ?dÄ?, idaṃ uppajjati. Imasmiṃ asati, idaṃ na hoti. Imassa nirodhÄ?, idhaṃ nirujjhati. ------------------------------------------------- ............................................................. NEW TG: This formulation is the primary basis for my conclusions. However, it is very terse and static. But if you do apply this diligently in an investigation of why things are impermanent, it shows that impermanence is an outcome of the process of conditionality. Being that this formula IS the "principles of conditionality," and you are saying it best exemplifies impermanence, how could it be anything other? If you combine these principles with examples in the Suttas of things altering due to contact including feelings/consciousness etc., if you combine that with the Buddha's description of the wearing away of the adze-handle over time, combine that with the Buddha describing the wearing away of the ship due to exposure to the elements, it all comes together...... DISPLACEMENT DUE TO CONDITIONS. .............................................................................. ..... .. It is displacing them. Hence, impermanence. In years and years and years of applying this idea, I have never found a case where it failed to work as a reason and cause for things being impermanent. The argument below is not based on my ideas and I distance myself from any of its conclusions or lack thereof. I will point out that you end that argument with another BECAUSE which doesn't mean anything edifying in my view. It just suggest that there is no answer, which is a proposition I don't agree with. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: As I see it, any explanatory chain has to be brought to an end. The end occurs for a particular person at the point that s/he is satisfied. ................................................................. NEW TG: Exactly Right! And I wasn't satisfied without knowing the cause for impermanence which is why I pursued it at length. Once you can drop attachment, you don't need this stuff. But for me, and I think for others, knowing the cause for impermanence, will inculcate "impermanence" in the mind with all that much more certainty and intensity.... thereby making it even more possible and likely to be SATISFIED that "THIS MUST BE." THIS IS WHAT CONDITIONALITY IS. ................................................................... I stop the chain of explanation with idappacayata/the chain of explanation with idappacay for that is where I find myself satisfied, and I see nothing further to say. ------------------------------------------------------ ................................................................. NEW TG: If you were totally satisfied, wouldn't you be an arahat by now? So, maybe you are satisfied with impermanence, but I don't think perhaps you should be, until its realization has achieved the end of suffering. Perhaps there is no more important thing to be aware of...since it was the last thing the Buddha taught in his parting words and advice. As I see impermanence as part-and-parcel of conditionality, I think the in-depth look at impermanence is part of understanding conditionality well, and nothing, IMO, is more important for insight and freedom. TG OUT =========================== With metta, Howard #83157 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. dhammanusara Hi TG, - Okay. You have been researching on the cause of impermanence for 15 years and written a book-sized paper. >TG: As phenomena interact and combine conditions, conditions are continuously altering. This explains arising and ceasing as a SIMULTANEOUS process. The "arising of one thing," is the "ceasing of something else. >You can be mindful or your own experiences and see for yourself that "new conditions" are simultaneously altering "old conditions." Conditions do not alter or drop away "by themselves," they do so due to the affects of "other conditions." Since nature/conditionality is a continuous process, impermanence is continuous. >The rate of change depends of the conditional circumstances. A "free floating asteroid" may go with very little change for millions of years. But if it meets with the right combination of conditions, such as impact with a sun, then puff...it changes real fast. T: Now, with all due respect, please allow me to ask a few formal research questions. 1. How do you verify the finding of your 15-year research that the cause for the "arising of things," is the same cause for the "ceasing of things"? 2. Are there real world cases (in daily lives) that support your finding? ......................... >Tep: Impermanence of any sankhata dhamma is explained by the three factors as given in the Sankhata Sutta that we discussed earlier, namely : arising, passing-away and alteration while staying. The cessation or "passing away" is already there; there is no need to say anything more than that. ............................................................ NEW TG: If you want to talk about real causes, the above doesn't address them. Its just saying -- "this is the way it is." It doesn't address the cause of impermanence at all. T: 3. How did you address or explain the cause of impermanence : what methodolgy have you used? >TG: (I do hope we're finished with the "flashed ray of bright light" accusation. ;-) ) (T: Yes, we are. ;-)) ) Thanks in advance. Tep === #83158 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 5. nilovg Hi Howard, Thank you for the sutta, I thought it was another one. Lodewijk said that I should formulate more carefully, when I read the passage to him after dinner. So, you are right. Nina. Op 24-feb-2008, om 17:34 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The Blessed One said: "Monks, whatever in the cosmos — with its > devas, Maras, > & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests > royalty & > common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought > after, > pondered by the intellect: That do I know. #83159 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 24-feb-2008, om 17:24 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > You could say the 5 cords are rupa, but they aren't even all of rupa. ------ N: visible object, sound, odour, flavour, tangible object, actually consisting of three: solidity, heat, motion. Can we say: these are representative of our sensuous clinging? We also cling to seeing, hearing, etc. As I said, all these dhammas mentioned for each link are not an exhaustive classification, they are like a representative. Is this a problem? Nina. #83160 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... nilovg Hi James, Op 24-feb-2008, om 18:03 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > James: The very thing the Abhidhamma is supposed > to destroy- view of self- it actually reinforces. This is why you see > Nina writing to Han "It is because of your kusala citta...." whose > kusala citta? Is there a self which owns that kusala citta? You see, > it is impossible to destroy view of self with the dhamma theory > because the deluded mind automatically reifies everything it > encounters. ------- N: I would like to explain this a bit more. We are inclined to think: it is my kusala. But now we learn: it is the kusala citta. When adding:'your', it is a figurative you, indicating: of that stream of cittas called Han. When I first learnt the Dhamma I had never thought of citta, or kusala citta. Then Kh Sujin taught me: it is your kusala citta and I found this an eye-opener. I did not take it in the sense of: *my* citta or reifying it. Nina. #83161 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/24/2008 1:23:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Howard, All In a message dated 2/24/2008 5:31:32 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: NEW TG: Think about it. As phenomena arise, isn't there change occurring in "previous" phenomena simultaneously? Of course there is. It is the dynamics of the process of conditionality that is the change and impermanence therein. The change is relative to the conditions "at play." ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, okay, I understand you a bit better. The arising of any phenomenon is a state change that, if nothing else, results in the "cessation of a prior absence". Perhaps you're thinking of something like the following: My hand, quite comfortable at the moment, gets burned, and it then hurts. The dhammas of will, distraction, motion (air element), heat, etc, etc all involved in "the burning of the hand" result in pain. Prior to that pain, there was comfort in the hand. The "comfort has gone" or "the comfort has changed to (or has been displaced by) pain" are things that people might say. ................................................... NEW TG: This above is right. The example is very simple which is good for purposes of investigation. Since conditions are continuously interacting, the change is continuous but relative to the conditional circumstances. The arising of a "cluster of conditions" (if you will) happens in various ways depending on the conditional factors involves. As "some conditions" move into place to form a formation that our minds can identify, as this occurs, it displaces other conditions that were previously configured in a different manner. So in your example, your mind may have been "at ease" and your body relatively still before your hand got burned. As you hand was getting burned, perhaps an uncountable amount of conditions changed, but to keep it simple, well focus on just a few. The previous calm feeling is replaced/displaced by extreme feeling of heat and pain. Your calm mind changes and is displaced by pain and aversion to that pain. this cause you to jerk your hand away from the conditions that are causing the pain, run to the water faucet, swear like like a sailor, (I thought I'd throw that in for realism. LOL) ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: LOL! Well, TG, everything is a matter of context. You don't know me in all contexts! LOLOL! ------------------------------------------------------ , make your wife give you a massage to comfort you, call in sick for work, lose your job, move to the poor farm, suffer immensely, seek relief, study Buddhism, become enlightened. I don't know why this turned into a comedy. LOL Anyway, all these changes or the lack of certain ones are dependent on conditional circumstances. As some conditions "fall into place," others must necessarily change as they are displaced by the new ones. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, you see, this is complex. Some conditions, comfort and pain for example, are incompatible. But others are compatible. And still others are (mutually) reinforcing. The details are complex, and thus the play of conditionality is complex. -------------------------------------------------- As for the pain, it doesn't really disappear, because some of its forces get recorded in your memory and that force/memory will keep you from being careless around hot things...thereby continuing to alter conditional circumstances. ................................................................ But we can almost ALWAYS counterpose presence and absence of a phenomenon, thinking of each as a condition and the other as its displacement or its absence. Sometimes its hard to say which, or whether either, is primary, but at other times it IS. I think we need to be wary of speaking of cessations of absences. If that's what you have in mind, its an interesting perspective, but it just doesn't "say a lot" to me. In the hand-burning example, I'd sooner say that there had been no pain, but the burning of the hand changed conditions by causing pain to arise. -------------------------------------------------------- ................................................................... NEW TG: I wouldn't speak of "cessations of absences" for the world. Seriously. Conditionality is happening in the present and is a simultaneous process. Impermanence is simultaneous and is actually just -- "conditionality in action." The displacement of conditions is constantly occurring. This causes "new" formations to form, and "old" formations to deform or better yet -- disintegrate...due to displacement. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The idea of impermanence being conditionality in action is nice (and correct), but what I think it ends up being is more of a detailing of some of the workings of impermanence than an accounting for impermanence. For incompatible phenomena, the arising of one must indeed mark the cessation of the other. If every cessation of a dhamma is due to the arising of an incompatible dhamma, then one might say that is an accounting for impermanence. But, for one thing, I'm not at all sure that universalization of this is valid. (Why is it a law that an incompatible phenomenon must eventually arise?) Moreover, I think this might be more of a reformulation of the "problem" of impermanence than an accounting for it. It simply redefines cessation of a phenomenon as the replacement of that phenomenon by an incompatible phenomenon, and the "problem" of accounting for impermanence then reduces to accounting for incompatibility. ------------------------------------------------------- We are here just using example of things that aren't actually even things. Just empty phenomena. We just need these example to communicate a meaning. ................................................................. ............................................... Is it that the cluster of requisite conditions is needed not only for the arising of the phenomenon, but also for *sustaining* it, so that when the conditions in the cluster subside, so does the caused phenomenon? .................................................... NEW TG: The above isn't my idea and still doesn't explain the cause for impermanence. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's right. it doesn't. in fact, it's really just a sort of reformulation. But I don't think that what you're saying does either. ----------------------------------------------- My idea is that "contact" between "forces," that we can call "conditions,"conditions," is forcibly altering those conditions into a di ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I know that you have a "push-pull" energy view of things, ......................................................... NEW TG: No, that's my wife's view. Mine's much more sophisticated. ;-) .......................................................... but that isn't my perspective. I'm inclined to see things as a play of mental and physical events that interact in a way describable merely by this/that conditionality. ........................................................... NEW TG: I would agree with this. ....................................................... I don't see change occurring in quite the continuous ebb & flow, transformational way that you do, though I do see that as an aesthetically pleasing picture. ......................................................... NEW TG: But I don't know why this is different then what you said above. Though what you said above is terse and not too explanational. (My computer is telling me "explanational" isn't a word. LOL) ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: 'Explanatory'? ;-) -------------------------------------------------- ................................................................... I also don't see it oppositely in the staccato, discrete-sequence, film-frame, manner of some others on DSG. I see it more "matter of factly" in that conditions in effect at this moment, will, at a future time not be in effect, and conversely, conditions presently not in effect may be in effect in the future. ..................................................................... NEW TG: True enough, but it doesn't explain anything. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I'm not as enamored or convinced of the viability of "explanation" as you are. Explaining can end when one is satisfied. I am. You're not yet. -------------------------------------------------------------- What I am talking about is discernable through direct experience and realizing. Watch it, watch the mind/feelings as they change, see the continuity of change as due to the relative conditional interaction. They change in conformity to the relative conditional circumstances. This is impermanence/change in action. But, also easily discerned by watching external phenomena as well. Think of a car driving down the road. As it changes its relationship with the road due to movement, it is burning gas, displacing air, pistons are moving and wearing away, tires are rubbing against the road causing the "tire formation" to change, as well as the road. Due to the road and tires relatively different conditional structure, the tires will alter in a more obvious fashion. Bearing are getting hot and wearing away, the sun is beating down and fading the paint, upholstery. etc., etc., etc. All of these changes are happening simultaneously. They are all changes in formations. The "new" formations are the results of this change. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I see nothing to disagree with here. It's conditions leading to conditions. ------------------------------------------------------ Something we might consider new, like a new born baby, is the result of the change of other conditions as well. Food has changed form, water has changed positions, air, heat, all these things have changed their relative position to establish the new formation. A lot of other positional changes required for conception to actual child birth that I won't go into. Much less the positional change of the consciousness energy of a prior being, theoretically. All of these things are displacements as well. .......................................................................... Sometimes this operates in what looks like "continuous change" and other times like "discrete change", but the fact of the matter is just this/that conditionality. ............................................................... NEW TG: It IS just conditionality yes. The "appearing rate of change" is just due to the conditional circumstances at any given moment or place. This change is continuous, but for us to discern it, it might appear extremely fast like changes in consciousness, or very slow like the changes in a "free floating asteroid." Personally, I think some "Abhidhammist theorist" realized that change is continuous and came to the dubious conclusion that whatever was in the present, must immediately fall away once the present was past. In a way true, but it lead to a "dhammas" view of these bubbling discrete things/entities that pop in and out of existence. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That isn't a necessary result. The same situation can be looked at and characterized variously. But I'll tell you something: I find the idea of anicca as being anything more than "What is now, at some time in the future will not be" to be incoherent. As I contemplate all the possibilities of change, instantaneous (or continuous) or discrete being the "big two", and I examine all the possible details involved, I find myself painted into a corner. I find the very notion of change to be ungraspable and "uncornerable". I find my thoughts automatically starting to "sound" to me like the writings of Nagarjuna. Cessation and arising cannot occur at the same instant, nor can time proceed in discrete, contiguous moments (for between any two moments, there are intervening moments). I can only end up with "Whatever arises, ceases." And that is what the Buddha taught, that and "Sabbe sankhara anicca." ------------------------------------------------------- It doesn't work that way IMO. Its the wrong way to think about it...and it works against the overview of seeing phenomena as always empty, coreless, alien, etc. This is because it led to the view that -- the present is very real, and that everything else was not real... Setting up a real vs not real dichotomy. It also blinded vision as to why phenomena are impermanent and led to the view that "it just is." This was not a good service for Buddhists IMO. .............................................................. And one metaphor is useful for some purposes, and the other for other purposes. .............................................................. NEW TG: I don't think so. I think its just due to our relative perspective that we might think one better than the other. In actuality, its all based on the relative conditional circumstances. ............................................................. My bottom line on this issue is that impermanence is best "explainable" by idappaccayata as in SN 12.61, where the following is given: When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that._[2]_ (_http://en.wikipediahttp://en.http://enhttp://en.http://_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratitya-samutpada#_note-1) ) Imasmiṃ sati, idaṃ hoti. Imass’ uppÄ?dÄ?, idaṃ uppajjati. Imasmiṃ asati, idaṃ na hoti. Imassa nirodhÄ?, idhaṃ nirujjhati. ------------------------------------------------- ............................................................. NEW TG: This formulation is the primary basis for my conclusions. However, it is very terse and static. But if you do apply this diligently in an investigation of why things are impermanent, it shows that impermanence is an outcome of the process of conditionality. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: The second half describes cessation of phenomena as based in the cessation of other phenomena. It doesn't "account" for cessation. It describes dependent cessation. ----------------------------------------------- Being that this formula IS the "principles of conditionality," and you are saying it best exemplifies impermanence, how could it be anything other? If you combine these principles with examples in the Suttas of things altering due to contact including feelings/consciousness etc., if you combine that with the Buddha's description of the wearing away of the adze-handle over time, combine that with the Buddha describing the wearing away of the ship due to exposure to the elements, it all comes together...... DISPLACEMENT DUE TO CONDITIONS. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Arising is in dependence on conditions, and cessation is due to the cessation of requisite conditions. The point seems to be that every phenomenon has certain requisite conditions for its existence. When the requisite conditions for a phenomenon have all eventually arisen, that phenomenon will arise. As soon as any of the requisite conditions ceases, the phenomenon must cease. Thus, if one wants an explanation for cessation, it is this requisite dependence together with cessation having always occurred from the "very no-beginning of time," to use a nice Mahayanist phrase. Actually, this sums up exactly how I see the matter. ----------------------------------------------------------- .............................................................................. ..... .. It is displacing them. Hence, impermanence. In years and years and years of applying this idea, I have never found a case where it failed to work as a reason and cause for things being impermanent. The argument below is not based on my ideas and I distance myself from any of its conclusions or lack thereof. I will point out that you end that argument with another BECAUSE which doesn't mean anything edifying in my view. It just suggest that there is no answer, which is a proposition I don't agree with. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: As I see it, any explanatory chain has to be brought to an end. The end occurs for a particular person at the point that s/he is satisfied. ................................................................. NEW TG: Exactly Right! And I wasn't satisfied without knowing the cause for impermanence which is why I pursued it at length. Once you can drop attachment, you don't need this stuff. But for me, and I think for others, knowing the cause for impermanence, will inculcate "impermanence" in the mind with all that much more certainty and intensity.... thereby making it even more possible and likely to be SATISFIED that "THIS MUST BE." THIS IS WHAT CONDITIONALITY IS. ................................................................... I stop the chain of explanation with idappacayata/the chain of explanation with idappacay for that is where I find myself satisfied, and I see nothing further to say. ------------------------------------------------------ ................................................................. NEW TG: If you were totally satisfied, wouldn't you be an arahat by now? --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Is that stated as the criterion? -------------------------------------------------------------- So, maybe you are satisfied with impermanence, but I don't think perhaps you should be, until its realization has achieved the end of suffering. --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I have enough other stuff to be involved with at the moment, like the flu my wife and I can't shake off (with the additional benefit of asthma for me)! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps there is no more important thing to be aware of...since it was the last thing the Buddha taught in his parting words and advice. As I see impermanence as part-and-parcel of conditionality, I think the in-depth look at impermanence is part of understanding conditionality well, and nothing, IMO, is more important for insight and freedom. --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do see impermanence as part & parcel of conditionality, and, for me, "conditionality rules"! -------------------------------------------------------------- TG OUT TG OUT =========================== With metta, Howard =================================== With metta, Howard #83162 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/24/2008 2:05:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Thank you for the sutta, I thought it was another one. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: No problem. ----------------------------------------------- Lodewijk said that I should formulate more carefully, when I read the passage to him after dinner. So, you are right. --------------------------------------------- Howard: My best to Lodewijk, Nina! BTW, given the remarkable magnitude of your "production," Nina, it is *amazing* to me that there aren't hundreds of errors made by you each week! My hat's off to you! :-) ------------------------------------------ Nina. ====================== With metta, Howard #83163 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "As I said, all these dhammas mentioned for each link are not an exhaustive classification, they are like a representative." Larry: Maybe so. Even in the suttas they are something anyone can relate to, sensuous clinging and views, rather than a technical definition. Larry #83164 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. scottduncan2 Dear TG, Tep, Howard, Pa.t.thaana deals with these aspects under discussion: Proximity Condition (Anantara Paccayo), Contiguity Condition (Samanantara Paccayo), Absence Condition (Natthi Paccayo), and Disappearance Condition (Vigata Paccayo). For your interest, U Naarada (Guide to Conditional Relations, Vol.1,) notes: "The condition where a mental state, the conditioning state, relates by causing the next mental state, the conditioned state, to arise immediately after its ceasing, so that no other mental state can intervene between them, is known as proximity condition. "The condition where a mental state, the conditioning state, relates by causing the next mental state, the conditioned state, to arise immediately after its ceasing in accordance with the fixed order of the mental process is known as contiguity condition," (p. 19). "The condition where a mental state, the conditioning state, which by its cessation, relates by giving the opportunity for the next mental state, the conditioned state, to arise, is known as absence condition, (p. 77). "The condition where a mental state, the conditioning state, which by its disappearance, relates by giving the opportunity for the next mental state, to arise, is known as disappearance condition," (p. 78) He clarifies that the difference between Absence and Disappearance Conditions is that "when the conditioning states which relate are absent because they have ceased after going through the nascent, static, and cessant phases, they are those of absence condition. But when the conditioning states which relate have disappeared after ceasing, they are those of disappearance condition," (p. 78). Scott: We are dealing with the fixed-order of mental process and, "[a]ccording to the fixed-order of the mental process, the preceding consciousnesses are related to the subsequent to the subsequent consciousnesses by the force of proximity condition. This is expounded as 'Preceding states are related to subsequent states.' Also, it is only after the preceding consciousness ceases that the subsequent consciousness arises. Therefore, the former is of the past and the latter is of the present. This difference in time of the two thought-moments is expounded as 'Past state is related to present state by proximity condition.' All such knowledge can be ascribed only to omniscience," (pp. 21-22). Sincerely, Scott. #83165 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:01 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. dhammanusara Hi Larry (TG, Nina, Howard), - I am for the idea of finding a "real test case" for any postulate/hypothesis, such as that proposed by TG: >TG: As phenomena interact and combine conditions, conditions are continuously altering. This explains arising and ceasing as a SIMULTANEOUS process. The "arising of one thing," is the "ceasing of something else". TG postulated three things : 1. Conditions (paccayas) are continuously altering. This is not new result. Every paccaya is sankhata dhamma that is inconstant/altering/impermanent. 2. One condition arises causes another condition to cease. This is not new either. It only restates the forward/backward dependent origination (paticcasamuppada) 3. Arising and ceasing of each dhamma are simultaneous. This is TG's new idea that has to be tested ! Larry: >I guess the real test case is what is the cause of the impermanence of bhavanga citta. Bhavanga citta repeats the exact same thought over and over until it is interrupted by an object of consciousness. T: I would like to answer your questions, using either TG's postulates or what I have learned from the Tipitaka, if you don't mind. Please tell me the answers are true or not true. L 1: The interruption fits your model but what causes the basic impermanence of repetition? T 1: The repetition ceases because of the arising of an object of consciousness -- when there is a movement(a formations) of the consciousness to take the arisen object. L 2: Another thorny case: during nirodha samapatti all consciousness stops, including bhavanga, but the life force rupa continues to repeat. Why so? We could say "kamma" but that doesn't explain why they fall apart, so to speak, and therefore need to be repeated. Why not one long term 'buz' rather than little moments of repetition? T 2: The life force continues to repeat because the ariyan had made an intention to continue living (vitality fabrications, see MN 43, DN 16) at the beginning before he entered the nirodha samapatti. The reason for "moments of repetition" I guess it is due to the nature of vithi-citta that has a cycle of 17 consciousnesses. Nina is the best person to answer this question. Remember I am just an abhidhamma rookie. ;-) Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi TG, > > I guess the real test case is what is the cause of the impermanence of > bhavanga citta. Bhavanga citta repeats the exact same thought over and #83166 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. nilovg Hi Tep, Don't mention me, I just take a rest now. Nina. Op 24-feb-2008, om 21:01 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > I guess it is due to the nature of > vithi-citta that has a cycle of 17 consciousnesses. Nina is the best > person to answer this question. Remember I am just an abhidhamma > rookie. ;-) #83167 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/24/2008 9:45:34 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: but the cessation of what arises I still just see as a matter of natural fact. With metta, Howard ..................................................... Hi Howard, Larry Natural fact? Does that mean anything really? Isn't everything in nature a "natural fact"? I guess it means something in contrast to someone claiming that impermanence isn't a natural fact. It does not reveal anything about the causes for impermanence though. TG #83168 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > Hi Larry > > I'm not suggesting little moments of repetition or one long buzz. I'm > suggesting that change is relative to conditional circumstances. Depending on > conditions, that change will unfold at various rates from our perspective. The > change is continuous yes, but some things, from our perspective, will seem to > change very little or very slowly, and other will be extremely > fast...depending on the conditional circumstances. > > > Impermanence is inherent in conditionality due to those very dynamics of > conditionality. Impermanence is not a separate feature, it is just a separate > way of thinking about conditionality. Impermanence is part of what > conditionality is. Hi TG and Howard, I agree. I just couldn't see what change in conditions conditions something like bhavanga cittas that repeat. We could say kammic accumulations condition the repeated arising of the same exact kind of dhamma but there has to be something unstable about each conditioned arising. Maybe we could say because it arises it has a beginning and because it has a beginning it has an end and because it has a beginning and an end it has a middle. A bhavanga citta and a life force rupa both repeat but at different speeds due to the nature of their instability. So we are back at "nature" as an explanation ;-)) Perhaps we can experience this instability in in and out breathing. Larry #83169 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. dhammanusara Dear Scott, TG, and Howard, - The descriptions of the four conditions: proximity, contiguity, absence, and disappearance, should be helpful for explaining the "cause of impermanence" as well as a test of TG's idea on the simultaneous occurrence of arising and ceasing dhammas. But I don't know how. Any suggestion ? Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear TG, Tep, Howard, > > Pa.t.thaana deals with these aspects under discussion: Proximity > Condition (Anantara Paccayo), Contiguity Condition (Samanantara > Paccayo), Absence Condition (Natthi Paccayo), and Disappearance > Condition (Vigata Paccayo). > > For your interest, U Naarada (Guide to Conditional Relations, Vol.1,) #83170 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Larry & TG & Nina) - In a message dated 2/24/2008 3:01:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Larry (TG, Nina, Howard), - I am for the idea of finding a "real test case" for any postulate/hypothesis, such as that proposed by TG: >TG: As phenomena interact and combine conditions, conditions are continuously altering. This explains arising and ceasing as a SIMULTANEOUS process. The "arising of one thing," is the "ceasing of something else". TG postulated three things : 1. Conditions (paccayas) are continuously altering. This is not new result. Every paccaya is sankhata dhamma that is inconstant/altering/impermanent. 2. One condition arises causes another condition to cease. This is not new either. It only restates the forward/backward dependent origination (paticcasamuppada) -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, not quite. D.P. says arising of requisite conditions results in arising of effect, and cessation of requisite conditions results in its cessation. So, what D.P. says is that arising leads to arising and cessation to cessation, but NOT that arising leads to cessation. That IS new, and it applies to incompatible conditions. ----------------------------------------------- 3. Arising and ceasing of each dhamma are simultaneous. This is TG's new idea that has to be tested ! ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Inasmuch as none of us is able to SEE a single instant, this is currently experientially untestable. But as I contemplete the matter, I find this simultaneity incoherent. I also find the alternative incoherent! ;-) ---------------------------------------------- Larry: >I guess the real test case is what is the cause of the impermanence of bhavanga citta. Bhavanga citta repeats the exact same thought over and over until it is interrupted by an object of consciousness. T: I would like to answer your questions, using either TG's postulates or what I have learned from the Tipitaka, if you don't mind. Please tell me the answers are true or not true. L 1: The interruption fits your model but what causes the basic impermanence of repetition? T 1: The repetition ceases because of the arising of an object of consciousness -- when there is a movement(a formations) of the consciousness to take the arisen object. L 2: Another thorny case: during nirodha samapatti all consciousness stops, including bhavanga, but the life force rupa continues to repeat. Why so? We could say "kamma" but that doesn't explain why they fall apart, so to speak, and therefore need to be repeated. Why not one long term 'buz' rather than little moments of repetition? T 2: The life force continues to repeat because the ariyan had made an intention to continue living (vitality fabrications, see MN 43, DN 16) at the beginning before he entered the nirodha samapatti. The reason for "moments of repetition" I guess it is due to the nature of vithi-citta that has a cycle of 17 consciousnesses. Nina is the best person to answer this question. Remember I am just an abhidhamma rookie. ;-) Tep ================================= With metta, Howard #83171 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... Hi Tep This knowledge is for you to find out and to develop for your own, I can't give it to you. I can only present it to you. You know what, I find it embarrassing to ever state anything that might sound like bragging. I try to let my argument stands on their own merit. I find it demeaning to announce that I've studied this subject specifically for so many years. Yet I do it due to your repeated rude comment (albeit perhaps unintentionally) of "a flash of bright light" ... with the idea that maybe you will take it more seriously and look at it more closely ... FOR YOUR BENEFIT, not for mine. And yet despite what I consider a continuation of a rude tone, by highlighting the 15 years I've spent on this specific approach, I will address your questions below... In a message dated 2/24/2008 11:38:26 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: 1. How do you verify the finding of your 15-year research that the cause for the "arising of things," is the same cause for the "ceasing of things"? ..................................................... NEWER TG: The same way I verify any Buddhist teaching or truth in the world. By observation, contemplation, monitoring of experiences, piecing together information, etc. This is the same way for you to verify it as well. ....................................................... 2. Are there real world cases (in daily lives) that support your finding? ......................... .......................................................... NEWER TG: Everything possible in the conditioned world, that I have applied this understanding to, fits perfectly so far. So yes, all "real world" cases (in daily lives) support the finding. I have even studied things, to the best of my ability, like quantum physics or chaos theory to see if I could find anything outside of my experiences and observations that would contradict my findings. I have not found anything yet that does. ........................................................... >Tep: Impermanence of any sankhata dhamma is explained by the three factors as given in the Sankhata Sutta that we discussed earlier, namely : arising, passing-away and alteration while staying. The cessation or "passing away" is already there; there is no need to say anything more than that. ............................................................ NEW TG: If you want to talk about real causes, the above doesn't address them. Its just saying -- "this is the way it is." It doesn't address the cause of impermanence at all. T: 3. How did you address or explain the cause of impermanence : what methodolgy have you used? ....................................................... NEWER TG: I have already spoken in great detail on this in many posts this last couple of days. See my latest long post to Howard for one. The methodology is as described above. TG OUT .................................................... >TG: (I do hope we're finished with the "flashed ray of bright light" accusation. ;-) ) (T: Yes, we are. ;-)) ) Thanks in advance. Tep #83172 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "The descriptions of the four conditions: proximity, contiguity, absence, and disappearance, should be helpful for explaining the "cause of impermanence" as well as a test of TG's idea on the simultaneous occurrence of arising and ceasing dhammas. But I don't know how. Any suggestion ?" Scott: No, not really, Tep. I'm nothing but a Bastion of Orthodoxy. I offer the ideas from Pa.t.thaana as representing extant explanations. I consider the 'fixed-order of mental process' to be the area TG wishes to penetrate with his views. I agree with U Naarada who suggests that this is the province of 'omniscience'. As well, I've not considered ruupa in presenting these four conditions, although they apply as well. Given a 'fixed-order', there can be no 'simultaneous occurrence of arising and ceasing dhammas'. Sincerely, Scott. #83173 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:56 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. dhammanusara Hi Howard, - I wrote : > 2. One condition arises causes another condition to cease. This is > not new either. It only restates the forward/backward dependent > origination (paticcasamuppada) > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Mmm, not quite. D.P. says arising of requisite conditions results in arising of effect, and cessation of requisite conditions results in its cessation. So, what D.P. says is that arising leads to arising and cessation to cessation, but NOT that arising leads to cessation. That IS new, and it applies to incompatible conditions. > ----------------------------------------------- T: Thank you for correcting me. You are right about the D.P. thsi/that conditionality. But I was thinking about something like the arising of vijja causes avijja to ccease; an arising of sati- sampajanna causes a tide of tanha to stop, etc. > 3. Arising and ceasing of each dhamma are simultaneous. This is TG's new idea that has to be tested ! > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Inasmuch as none of us is able to SEE a single instant, this is currently experientially untestable. But as I contemplete the matter, I find this simultaneity incoherent. I also find the alternative incoherent! ;-) > ---------------------------------------------- > T: I am thinking about testing TG's idea by the Patthana 4 conditions that Scott emailed us this afternoon. BTW What did you find about "alternative incoherent"? Tep === #83175 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. dhammanusara Hi TG and all, - > TG: > Hi Tep > > > This knowledge is for you to find out and to develop for your own, I can't give it to you. I can only present it to you. > > > You know what, I find it embarrassing to ever state anything that >might sound like bragging. I try to let my argument stands on their >own merit. I find it demeaning to announce that I've studied this >subject specifically for so many years. Yet I do it due to your >repeated rude comment (albeit perhaps unintentionally) of "a flash >of bright light" ... with the idea that maybe you will take it more >seriously and look at it more closely ... FOR YOUR BENEFIT, > not for mine. > > > And yet despite what I consider a continuation of a rude tone, by > highlighting the 15 years I've spent on this specific approach, I will address your questions below... > ..................... T: It is so easy to see people getting upset at this forum. Can anyone tell me why? Anyone who is easily upset should stay home, alone. >TG: I find it demeaning to announce that I've studied this subject specifically for so many years. Yet I do it due to your repeated rude comment (albeit perhaps unintentionally) of "a flash of bright light" ... with the idea that maybe you will take it more seriously and look at it more closely ... FOR YOUR BENEFIT, not for mine. T: You are a sensitive person, TG. Why is that teasing rude? The Buddha taught us not to hold on to the dhammas (including ideas and words of other persons) -- doing so makes it impossible to let go, and you get upset. Thank you for answering my questions. Keep up the good thinking ! Peace, Tep ==== P.S. I promise everyone : no more teasing from me from now on !! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Tep > > > This knowledge is for you to find out and to develop for your own, I can't > give it to you. I can only present it to you. > > > You know what, I find it embarrassing to ever state anything that might > sound like bragging. #83176 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... Hi Howard ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The idea of impermanence being conditionality in action is nice (and correct), but what I think it ends up being is more of a detailing of some of the workings of impermanence than an accounting for impermanence. ................................................................ NEWER TG: When there is contact there is change. Both "Buddhist contact" and any contact. It is this contact that alters conditions...it is also this contact that IS conditionality. It is dynamic, moving. ................................................................... For incompatible phenomena, the arising of one must indeed mark the cessation of the other. If every cessation of a dhamma is due to the arising of an incompatible dhamma, then one might say that is an accounting for impermanence. But, for one thing, I'm not at all sure that universalization of this is valid. (Why is it a law that an incompatible phenomenon must eventually arise?) .............................................................. NEWER TG: Due to dynamics, movement, there must be change. It is a "law" that things are moving in relationship with each other. As they do, formations are altering. I would not use the term "incompatable" as I think it gives a poor sensibility to the situation. It almost implies a "static something." ............................................................. Moreover, I think this might be more of a reformulation of the "problem" of impermanence than an accounting for it. It simply redefines cessation of a phenomenon as the replacement of that phenomenon by an incompatible phenomenon, and the "problem" of accounting for impermanence then reduces to accounting for incompatibility. ------------------------------------------------------- NEWER TG: This "replacement theory" is NOT mine...or at least, I would not address it that way. That is too static a way of looking at the process. Its fluid. Contacts/influences continuously are altering conditions. Phenomena conforms to the affects of contacts/influences. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That isn't a necessary result. The same situation can be looked at and characterized variously. But I'll tell you something: I find the idea of anicca as being anything more than "What is now, at some time in the future will not be" to be incoherent. ................................................................. NEWER TG: OK, but I don't know why. Seems like an odd conclusion. How about the talking of past conditions? How about the talking of "changing while continuing," which is admitted a clumsy way of addressing the issue. But it does address "present change." And it is the Buddha doing so. Father O'Flannigan impression -- Oh Howard... ya wouldn't be calling the Buddha incoherent now would-ya? LOL ........................................................... As I contemplate all the possibilities of change, instantaneous (or continuous) or discrete being the "big two", and I examine all the possible details involved, I find myself painted into a corner. I find the very notion of change to be ungraspable and "uncornerable"the very no thoughts automatically starting to "sound" to me like the writings of Nagarjuna. Cessation and arising cannot occur at the same instant, ................................................................ NEWER TG: Its actually the only way it can occur. Otherwise we're talking about static persistent entities. Oh Howard... ya wouldn't be throwing the Nagarjuna label at me now would-ya? LOL ................................................................... nor can time proceed in discrete, contiguous moments (for between any two moments, there are intervening moments). I can only end up with "Whatever arises, ceases." And that is what the Buddha taught, that and "Sabbe sankhara anicca." ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Arising is in dependence on conditions, and cessation is due to the cessation of requisite conditions. The point seems to be that every phenomenon has certain requisite conditions for its existence. When the requisite conditions for a phenomenon have all eventually arisen, that phenomenon will arise. As soon as any of the requisite conditions ceases, the phenomenon must cease. Thus, if one wants an explanation for cessation, it is this requisite dependence together with cessation having always occurred from the "very no-beginning of time," to use a nice Mahayanist phrase. Actually, this sums up exactly how I see the matter. ......................................................................... NEWER TG: Well now, seems like your the Nagarjunist after all. ;-) And an Abhidhammist-Nagarjunist at that! LOL ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do see impermanence as part & parcel of conditionality, and, for me, "conditionality rules"! ---------------------------------------------------------- NEWER TG: This is what I am saying. It is part of conditionality. To separate them means they are not be seen well enough IMO. TG OUT =================================== With metta, Howard #83177 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:30 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. dhammanusara Dear Scott, - Although you humbly said you got no idea, yet your comment below is worth a pound of gold. Scott: I agree with U > Naarada who suggests that this is the province of 'omniscience'. As > well, I've not considered ruupa in presenting these four conditions, > although they apply as well. > > Given a 'fixed-order', there can be no 'simultaneous occurrence of > arising and ceasing dhammas'. > T: I am very interested in the fixed-order-sequence principle, and hope to catch some clues at the Patthana Corner later on. Thank you very much. Tep === #83178 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/24/2008 1:01:50 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: 3. Arising and ceasing of each dhamma are simultaneous. This is TG's new idea that has to be tested ! ............................................... Hi Tep I'm uncomfortable with the idea of "each dhamma," as if there were separate "dhammas." This accords the idea of "a dhamma" as "an existent." I would say that phenomena is a dynamic multifaceted continuum whereby conditions can jell and combine in the ways that they become-the-structures we are able to identify; by means of, those vary same conditions (mind/body complex). I.E., the body/mind complex is just dynamic multifaceted phenomena as well. There is the arising of conditional formations but there is NOT the arising of "a dhamma." I.E., What you are calling "a dhamma" ... I am calling "conditional formations." There are always conditions around us. To say something is arising or ceasing is merely subjective. What is arising from one point of view, is the ceasing of something else from another point of view. So as to your above, yes, I do see impermanence as a simultaneous process. But, I DO NOT see a "single dhamma" that arises and ceases simultaneously. I hope that makes sense. TG #83179 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/24/2008 1:33:42 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: Mmm, not quite. D.P. says arising of requisite conditions results in arising of effect, and cessation of requisite conditions results in its cessation. So, what D.P. says is that arising leads to arising and cessation to cessation, but NOT that arising leads to cessation. That IS new, and it applies to incompatible conditions. ............................................ Hi Howard, All TG: I would say its not new. The Buddha speaks of "persisting while changing." This shows continuous change. TG #83180 From: han tun Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:48 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (92) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) We read in the Sutta, the “Analysis of the Elements”, that at that time the Buddha asked Pukkusaati: “On account of whom have you, monk, gone forth? Who is your teacher? Whose Dhamma do you profess?” Pukkusaati answered: “There is, friend, the recluse Gotama, son of the Sakyans, gone forth from the Sakyan clan; concerning this Lord Gotama a lovely reputation has gone abroad thus: He is indeed the Lord, perfected one, fully Self-Awakened One, endowed with right conduct and knowledge, well-farer, knower of the worlds, matchless charioteer of men to be tamed, teacher of devas and mankind, the Awakened One, the Lord. On account of this Lord have I gone forth, and this Lord is my teacher; I profess this Lord’s Dhamma.” “But where, monk, is this Lord, perfected one, fully Self-Awakened One, staying now?” “There is a town called Saavatthí, friend, in the northern districts; this Lord, perfected one, fully Self-Awakened One, is now staying there.” “Have you, monk, ever seen this Lord? If you saw him would you know him?” “No, friend, I have never seen this Lord, so I would not know him if I saw him.” We read further on in the Sutta: “Then it occurred to the Lord: ‘This young man of respectable family has gone forth on account of me. Suppose I were to teach him Dhamma?’ And the Lord addressed the venerable Pukkusaati, saying: ‘I will teach you Dhamma, monk; listen carefully, pay attention and I will speak.’ ‘Yes, friend,’ the venerable Pukusaati answered the Lord in assent...” The Buddha then taught him the Sutta on the “Analysis of the Elements”[1] Note [1] In this sutta the Buddha taught Pukkusaati about the six elements of earth, water, fire, wind, space and consciousness. He taught that these should not be seen as mine, I or myself. He taught about feelings and their conditions, about aruupa jhaanas, and about the fact that these are conditioned dhammas. He spoke about the cessation of birth and the unconditioned dhamma. To be continued. Metta, Han #83181 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/24/2008 2:21:57 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: It is so easy to see people getting upset at this forum. Can anyone tell me why? Anyone who is easily upset should stay home, alone. ......................................... Hi Tep Upset is an emotional reaction. I'm quite calm over here thank you. :-) Did the Buddha rebuke people who were rude? You bet ya! Like I said, I gave you credit for your comments being "unintentionally" rude. And from your perspective, that means you wouldn't have seen it as being rude. And apparently you didn't and I apologize for taking them wrongly. Now, lets get past this and deal with issues, not guessing at peoples subjective experiences or attainments please. TG #83182 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 2/24/2008 3:57:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Howard, - I wrote : > 2. One condition arises causes another condition to cease. This is > not new either. It only restates the forward/backward dependent > origination (paticcasamuppada) > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Mmm, not quite. D.P. says arising of requisite conditions results in arising of effect, and cessation of requisite conditions results in its cessation. So, what D.P. says is that arising leads to arising and cessation to cessation, but NOT that arising leads to cessation. That IS new, and it applies to incompatible conditions. > ----------------------------------------------- T: Thank you for correcting me. You are right about the D.P. thsi/that conditionality. But I was thinking about something like the arising of vijja causes avijja to ccease; an arising of sati- sampajanna causes a tide of tanha to stop, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: There's no doubt about such things. It is what I was aiming at in speaking of incompatible conditions. TG was insightful in zeroing in on this, I'd say. ----------------------------------------------------------------- > 3. Arising and ceasing of each dhamma are simultaneous. This is TG's new idea that has to be tested ! > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Inasmuch as none of us is able to SEE a single instant, this is currently experientially untestable. But as I contemplete the matter, I find this simultaneity incoherent. I also find the alternative incoherent! ;-) > ---------------------------------------------- > T: I am thinking about testing TG's idea by the Patthana 4 conditions that Scott emailed us this afternoon. BTW What did you find about "alternative incoherent"? -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I can't adequately explain it without a great deal of work on my part, and I'm afraid I'm not up to that right now. (I'm feeling pretty ill.) My prior reference to thoughts along the lines of Nagarjuna may give some idea, but I'm afraid I'll just have to bow out on that. ----------------------------------------------------------- Tep ============================= With metta, Howard #83183 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:24 am Subject: The Incoherence of Instantaneous Arising, Cessation, and their Simultaneity upasaka_howard Hi, TG and all - 1) If a dhamma, say an object of consciousness, ceases at an instant of time, at a single, 0-duration point of time, at that instant does the dhamma exist, not exist, neither, or both? Don't shrug this off, but contemplate it. 2) If another dhamma, say the next object of consciousness, arises at that same very instant, at that instant does that dhamma exist, not exist, neither, or both. Is there no incoherence to this? The problems associated with this are insurmountable, it seems to me. With metta, Howard #83184 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: I would like to explain this a bit more. We are inclined to think: > it is my kusala. But now we learn: it is the kusala citta. When > adding:'your', it is a figurative you, indicating: of that stream of > cittas called Han. > When I first learnt the Dhamma I had never thought of citta, or > kusala citta. Then Kh Sujin taught me: it is your kusala citta and I > found this an eye-opener. I did not take it in the sense of: *my* > citta or reifying it. > Nina. Of course it could just be a use of language, but we all suffer from self-view so I don't really think so. And it doesn't even have to refer to dhammas. When we say things like: my foot, my hand, my face or your foot, your hand, your face, we are reflecting, through language, what is present in our thinking. The mind creates the illusion that there is somehow a permanent self which owns that foot, hand, face, citta, etc. I don't believe that studying the Abhidhamma removes this view of self. With study of the Abhidhamma, we just take dhammas for being self rather than body parts/body/or mind. Again, the only way to remove this view of self is through meditation (samatha followed by vipassana). Metta, James ps. Don't feel inclined to respond if you need rest. :-) #83185 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:22 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... buddhatrue Hi Tep, Thank you for your good comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > T: It explains right view and gives more details of the various kinds of > pa~n~na (that includes samma-ditthi). As I see it, the Abhidhamma > (excluding commentaries) expounds the theoretical principles that are > very good at explaining the sutta teachings that lack some details. You have my interest piqued. How do you see Abhidhamma proper as separate or different than the commentaries? Metta, James #83186 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:51 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (9) dhammanusara Dear Han (and Nina), - I found the following quote very informative and interesting. >Han (quoting Nina's book): >The patisandhi-citta may be ahetuka (rootless) and in that case one is born handicapped. Or the patisandhi-citta may be accompanied by two or three sobhana hetus, depending on the degree of kusala kamma which produces it. These hetus are of different degrees. When the patisandhi-citta is rooted in sobhana hetus, these hetus condition the citta, the accompanying cetasikas and the ruupas which are produced by kamma and which arise at the same time as the patisandhi-citta. Thus we see that the diversity of the naama and ruupa of human beings from the moment of birth is dependent on conditions. [end of quote] T: I have learned from the Beginner's Abhidhamma discussion with Nina that 'hetu' means root such as alobha, adosa, amoha, lobha, dosa, moha. From your above quote I learn that these 6 roots can condition the citta at the moment of birth. So, some human beings may be born in a rich family, some may have good health, etc., or the opposites may happen, depending on the kind of hetus, i.e. good or bad. Now, for the case a patisandhi-citta is 'ahetuka' there are neither good nor bad roots, right? Then why is the new born baby handicapped, when there are no bad hetus? Or, is that handicap a result of a bad kamma? Thanking you in advance, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > Thank you very much for your kind comments. > What happens at the very first moment of life, in > relation to root condition is also very interesting. > You have described it very nicely in your book, which > I wish to quote herewith: > > Quote: [As regards root-condition, hetu-paccaya, at > the first moment of life, if the > rebirth-consciousness, patisandhi-citta, is > accompanied by roots, these roots condition the citta #83187 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:15 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... dhammanusara Hi James, - So far we have had a nice and productive discussion, even though we do not concur more than 50%. Believe it or not ! > > T: It explains right view and gives more details of the various > > kinds of pa~n~na (that includes samma-ditthi). As I see it, the > > Abhidhamma(excluding commentaries) expounds the theoretical > > principles that are very good at explaining the sutta teachings > > that lack some details. > James: > You have my interest piqued. How do you see Abhidhamma proper as > separate or different than the commentaries? > Frankly, I have a mixed feeling about commentaries (for the suttas or the Abhidhamma Pitaka) -- sometimes they are very useful, especially when commentators explain the Pali terms and provide cross-references of related suttas and necessary background information. But some other times when the commentators (including Ven. Buddhaghosa) add their own personal explanations/views/stories that are not supported by the Buddha's words, I become suspicious. I think it is because I am an old-fashion Buddhist who only believes in the Buddha's words. But I am mindful that I should not let "that" go too far to become a bias. Tep === #83188 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:15 pm Subject: Discrete Moments (Re: [dsg] The Incoherence of Instantaneous Arising, Cess...) upasaka_howard Hi again, TG (and all) - One thing that I will point out that favors the idea of time proceeding as a sequence of discrete, contiguous moments is the following: Arising and cessation would no longer be considered as events that occur at moments in time, but in transition from one moment to the next, and the incoherence problem I pointed out before simply disappears. I proceed with a gedanken experiment under the assumption of consecutive moments: If B were a condition incompatible with condition A, so that the two could never co-occur, then the arising of B "simultaneous" with the cessation of A, would come down to the discrete time sequence (A, B). Here, at the first moment A exists (and of course not B), and at the next moment, B exists but not A. The *transition* from the first moment to the second consists of the simultaneous cessation of A and arising of B. So, the scheme of successive moments, accounts for arisings and cessations not as events that occur *at* points in time, but *in transition* from one moment to the next, and both can occur at the same transition. This is an argument *in favor* of the commentarial, momentaristic perspective. And I won't say that it cannot be a correct model. It might well be. It does seem to fit in well with quantum theory. Moreover, perhaps it only *seems* that between any two points in time there are intermediate points due to the sheer number of moments, possibly billions, in a single second. But perhaps that really is only appearance, and immediate precedence is a fact. I'm certainly willing to consider this as a possibility. With metta, Howard #83189 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:37 pm Subject: Re: The Incoherence of Instantaneous Arising, Cessation, and their Simultaneity truth_aerator Hello all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, TG and all - > > 1) If a dhamma, say an object of consciousness, ceases at an instant of time, at a single, 0-duration point of time, at that instant does the dhamma exist, not exist, neither, or both? Don't shrug this off, but contemplate it. >>>> If cause lasts for 0 seconds, then for all intents and purposes it is as if it doesn't exist. Furthermore the whole causality is destroyed, since NONE of the other dhammas would appear later. It doesn't matter how many trillions of 0's you add, the duration of the whole chain would be ZERO. Furthermore if each Dhamma arises at the same moment it disappears, then there would be NO change (impermanence) possible. Neither would motion be possible. For change to happen, some part of some thing must last more than other parts. Instanteneous "moments" put the teachings of Anicca in danger... > 2) If another dhamma, say the next object of consciousness, arises at that same very instant, at that instant does that dhamma exist, not exist, neither, or both. >>> First a) If both events happen simulteneous then HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT ONE CAUSED THE OTHER? Furthermore if the past Dhamma has ceased, then what causes the 2nd Dhamma (effect) to appear. Remember, the cause (which had 0 duration) is no longer existing! Thinking about this, I see a possible validity in Sarvastivadin claim of dhammas existing (I assume the existings are of different sorts) in past (as causes) in the present as actuality and in the future as potential possibility. A question, if time travel to the past would be possible - would this refute Theravadin momentarism and prove Sarvastivadin claims? Lots of Metta, Alex #83190 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. dhammanusara Hi TG and other friends, - You wrote : > TG: > Upset is an emotional reaction. I'm quite calm over here thank you. :-) > > > Did the Buddha rebuke people who were rude? You bet ya! > > > Like I said, I gave you credit for your comments being "unintentionally" > rude. And from your perspective, that means you wouldn't have seen it as being rude. And apparently you didn't and I apologize for taking them wrongly. > > > Now, lets get past this and deal with issues, not guessing at peoples subjective experiences or attainments please. > > T: It is human nature to have conflicts at least once in a while ! I am always open to your and anybody's criticism (although I prefer not to have it too often). Being rude, cute, upset, good-looking or ugly is only in the eye of the beholder ! Yes, let's get back on the track and keep rolling along. Tep === #83191 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:49 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Frankly, I have a mixed feeling about commentaries (for the suttas or > the Abhidhamma Pitaka) -- sometimes they are very useful, especially > when commentators explain the Pali terms and provide cross-references > of related suttas and necessary background information. I was wanting to know what you specifically thought of the commentaries to the Abhidhamma. Do you believe that they change the meaning? Rob M., an Abhidhamma teacher and DSG member, posted something along the lines that the commentaries changed 'dhammas' into 'realities' thus adding an ontological bent to the Abhidhamma not originally intended. Has this been your finding or are you not sure yet? Metta, James #83192 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:51 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... truth_aerator Dear Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > As I see it, the > > > Abhidhamma(excluding commentaries) expounds the theoretical > > > principles that are very good at explaining the sutta teachings > > > that lack some details. >>>> Is it possible that the Buddha simply didn't provide a lot of theoretical detail because that wasn't His ultimate goal in the first place (remember the parable of being shot with an arrow)? After all, one must find out everything through one's own effort and at Arahatship or Anagamiship one can achieve "Analytical Knowledges" that WOULD clarify many points. >>> > Frankly, I have a mixed feeling about commentaries (for the suttas or the Abhidhamma Pitaka) -- sometimes they are very useful, especially when commentators explain the Pali terms and provide cross-references of related suttas and necessary background information. But some other times when the commentators (including Ven. Buddhaghosa) add their own personal explanations/views/stories that are not supported by the Buddha's words, I become suspicious. I think it is because I am an old-fashion Buddhist who only believes in the Buddha's words. But I am mindful that I should not let "that" go too far to become bias. >>>> Please be biased. Accept the Buddha and be cautious about someone else. In DN16 the Buddha has said that HIS words take precedence over ANY ELDER OR ANY GROUP OF ELDERS (This would DEFINATELY include Ven. Buddhaghosa or ANY "yana or vada" including Theravada). Even when it comes to Sariputta, we need to make sure that what he said was approved by the Buddha himself (which in almost all cases was). Lots of Metta, Alex #83193 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:18 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... scottduncan2 Dear Alex (and Tep), A: "Is it possible that the Buddha simply didn't provide a lot of theoretical detail because that wasn't His ultimate goal in the first place (remember the parable of being shot with an arrow)? After all, one must find out everything through one's own effort and at Arahatship or Anagamiship one can achieve "Analytical Knowledges" that WOULD clarify many points." Scott: The Dispeller of Delusion (Sammohavinodanii), pp. 128-129: "1951. ~Naa.nesu ~naa.na.m...('knowledge concerning the kinds of knowledge'): when one reviews knowledge by making the knowledge which accomplishes all this the object, the knowledge which falls into this category is Discrimination of Intelligence (paa.tibhaa.na-pa.tisambhidaa). "1952. But it should also be understood that these four Discriminations are classifiable in two stages and become manifest for five reasons. "1953. Which are the two? The plane of the trainer (sekha-bhuumi) and the plane of the non-trainer (asekha-bhuumi). Herein, the discriminations of the Elder Saariputta, the Elder Mahaamoggallaana, the Elder Mahaakassapa, the Elder Mahaakaccaayana, the Elder Mahaa Ko.t.thita and of the eight senior elders fall into the category of the non-trainers plane. The discriminations of the Elder Aananda, the householder Citta, the lay devotee Dhammika, the householder Upaali, the woman devotee Khujjuttaraa and so on fall into the category of the trainer's plane. Thus they are classifiable in these two planes. "1954. For which five reasons do they become manifest? (1) Through attainment (adhigama), (2) through competency [in scriptures] (pariyatti), (3) through hearing (sava.na), (4) through being questioned, (5) through previous work (yoga). "1955. Herein, (1) 'attainment' is Arahatship; for the discriminations become manifest in one who has reached that. (2) 'Competency [in scriptures]' is the Buddha's word; for the Discriminations become manifest as one is learning that. (3) 'Hearing' is the hearing of the dhamma; for the Discriminations become manifested in one who listens to the dhamma attentively. (4) 'Being questioned' is the explanation of the meaning of the Paa.li he has learnt. (5) 'Previous work' is formerly practised meditation, having laid hold of the meditation subject in a past existence by the method of 'carrying it forth and carrying it back'; for the Discriminations become manifest in one who was formerly a meditator... "1961. But among these reasons, these three, namely competency [in the scriptures], hearing and being questioned, are powerful reasons for the category itself; previous work is a powerful condition for attainment. But for the category, is it or is it not [a condition]? It is, but not in this way. For whether there were or were not competency, hearing and being questioned in the past, there is no Discrimination through previous work without comprehension of formations both in the past and now. But these two together make the Discriminations become manifest by supporting them." A: "Please be biased. Accept the Buddha and be cautious about someone else." Scott: 'Someone else' includes me and you. Sincerely, Scott. #83194 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:38 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex (and Tep), > > A: "Is it possible that the Buddha simply didn't provide a lot of > theoretical detail because that wasn't His ultimate goal in the first > place (remember the parable of being shot with an arrow)? After all, > one must find out everything through one's own effort and at > Arahatship or Anagamiship one can achieve "Analytical Knowledges" > that WOULD clarify many points." >>> I'd like to add to the above this: "Sometimes finding out for yourself is much better than reading about someone else's experience. It is possible to mistake theoretical knowledge for one's own knowledge. Sometimes that may even prove to be a hindrance, especially when one starts to hid behind concepts. And there MAY be a self view that erreneously believes in "I am learning", "I must learn", etc etc. > > Scott: The Dispeller of Delusion (Sammohavinodanii), pp. 128-129: > With all due respect, quote the Buddha first. > > A: "Please be biased. Accept the Buddha and be cautious about someone > else." > > Scott: 'Someone else' includes me and you. > Of course. Lots of Metta, Alex #83195 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Impermanence.. lbidd2 Hi Tep, Sorry I missed your post to me. At this point it seems like the whole thing is hopelessly muddled. One thing I could say though is that according to Vism. understanding dependent arising isn't quite insight knowledge of impermanence. I haven't read ahead so I don't know what that's about. Larry #83196 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:43 pm Subject: Re: Discrete Moments (Re: [dsg] The Incoherence of Instantaneous Arising, Ces... upasaka_howard Hi again - A little further thought shows that simultaneous cessation and arising can make sense with continuous time as well as discrete time. Assume a continuous time line. Suppose that A and B are incompatible phenomena. The simultaneous arising of B and cessation of A at a time, t, would occur exactly when the following situation holds: 1) During some time interval preceding time t, A exists (and B does not), and 2) At time t, B exists (and A does not). These, together, exactly constitute B arising at time t and A ceasing at time t. With metta, Howard #83197 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:53 pm Subject: Discrete Moments (Re: [dsg] The Incoherence of Instantaneous Arising, Ces... truth_aerator Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi again - > > > A little further thought shows that simultaneous cessation and arising > can make sense with continuous time as well as discrete time. Assume a > continuous time line. Suppose that A and B are incompatible phenomena. The > simultaneous arising of B and cessation of A at a time, t, would occur exactly when > the following situation holds: > > 1) During some time interval preceding time t, A exists (and B does > not), and > > 2) At time t, B exists (and A does not). > > These, together, exactly constitute B arising at time t and A ceasing at > time t. > > With metta, > Howard > Wait a second. Brightness cannot coexist at the same time/place where darkness is. Same is here. Arising has to be BEFORE ceasing, thus the time difference must be >0. But this destroys the concepts of a moment of time lasting for 0 seconds, which is the only natural indivisible and smallest unit. Lots of Metta, Alex #83198 From: "colette" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani ksheri3 Hi Tep, Few minutes tonight so I'll be happy to help with your "indoctrination" into Nargarjuna's Mula Madhyamaka Karika, but I've also got to start reading and printing his Vigrahavyavartani ("Averting the Arguments"). Being restricted and virtually kicked off the computer in the library has given me so much time to actually work these different MAHAYANA, not Theravadan, texts. No, actually it's Madhyamika texts, however I can say that he deals mainly with COGNITION, the second or less that a citta arises and ceases, and how that second CONDITIONS the REALITY. I, since resorting to strictly filing EVERYTHING I've copied since 2004, have been very immersed in re-reading a lot of papers I've forgotten about. For instance, in the concept of "conditioning" I'll find a paper and recall the enormous struggles I had decyphering it, for instance since these papers are written by scholars or potential scholars. Sure there is great joy in recalling my triumph of finishing the paper and believing that I actually realized it but then when I skim over it, again, I find that the paper is full of far greater truths than I suspected at first. In the coarse of filing my room is becoming a lot cleaner and neater still I have on the little coffee table next to my bed a stack of papers like Verses from the Center by Stpehen Batchelor, copied in 2005, or class notes from a Rutgers Buddhist summer school class copied in 2006 and just today said to myself "I've gotta contact this Swenson guy and find out who this "WV" is in his notes from "Emptiness: Time" which deals with the Past, Present, and Future, or one may see a relationship with the Trikaya which the Kagyu are rather fond of. I even have the Dhammapada in that stack. For more than a week, I had that in my bed, all jumbled up in different parts, until last wk. I finally sorted it properly. WAIT, as I looked at the bottom stack of papers in this stack I find that "Buddhistinformation.com" has already given me a paper called "MulamahyamakaKarikas and Vigrahavyavartani" and here I can say that I have already cognized, for some reason, that I prefered Verses From The Centre possibly because it gives the Pali text underlined with the English translation. As I get time I'll try to keep you updated. in closing I want to say that this afternoon I was reading and contemplating to realize and actually say out loud: "I love this Buddhist magik. This stuff is great, it works so well with the Kaballah." toodles, colette #83199 From: "colette" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani ksheri3 Hi Howard, Yes Tep, I was happy to read Howard's words, however I'd like some clarifications. So, Howard, lets take apart your little ditty here. There *is* an interesting way in which this passage could be > understood. > > When I first looked at it, I marveled at the apparent similarity to > > Nagarjuna's writing! colette: If I ever get the chance to research where the quotes come from or what piece of writing you read, then maybe maybe not I'll agree with you. Yet you opened our friend Nargarjuna. Nagarjuna begins his primary work, the > Mulamadhyamakakarikas, with the following: "Never are any existing > things found to originate from themselves, from something else, from > both, or from no cause." (In reading further in that work it becomes > clear that this is actually a denial of entity-causes and a denial of > substantial causal power, colette: okay, maybe we have some word problems. I read Nargarjuna as being completely devoted to PROPER COGNITION: he takes existance as it is and then deals with the different ways people cognize reality. This is a way to create a calm, an equilibrium, where the meditative process is at it's best. The "middle way" is just that: accepting the fact that the two extremes exist then consciously chosing to avoid them. I must say that theories by Dion Fortune after her time in the Golden Dawn before creating her Society of the Inner Light, raises questions within me since her work shows that she found CHAOS or what some may call "evil" close to the center while calm and equilibrium are on the far reaches of groups or group behaviors. THIS IS HIGHLY CONTRADICTORY TO THE MADHYAMIKA or "the middle way". Nargarjuna attacks the TOTAL IGNORANCE of society to place a value on things as if they possess SVABHAVA, self-existant nature. The Middle Way is consumed with identifying the characteristics of that which lead a person to fall victim to the clinging and dependence on things having a Svabhava when they actually do not. One person recently relented, in another group, that he could see the winter coming based on the calm after what he considered to be heated debates which gave me the chance to inform him that he's suggesting that the winter is a heated time where people go sun bathing and such, that this debate is over, is past, when it hasn't really begun. The heat is yet to come since I am certainly getting warmed up and can't wait to compare this stuff, after this meditational period, to kaballistic theory. I almost even consider Nargarjuna to be laughing if not mocking, the Caste System, since he does come from a Brahman caste. Notice I said "does come from" not "did come from". ;-) ------------------------------------- but not a denial of mere this/that > conditionality.) colette: you've found the crux of his work, then. He is resting his case on the two truths: Ultimate Truth and Relative Truth. He, from a shamanistic point of view, is completely relingquishing the Relative Truth or Relative Reality in an attempt to maintain a peace, a calm, an equilibrium, as the vehicle, the means to TRANSCEND SPACE AND TIME. ------------------------------------- If Nagarjuna was picking up on material such as this > > from the Dhammasangani, colette: thank you, now I know where to look. ------------------------------ and if indeed this material has the same > meaning as expressed in Nagarjuna's emptiness-based writing, then I > would be not only satisfied, but utterly delighted! (The 4th line here, to > the effect that all forms are associated with conditionality is fine from any > Buddhist perspective, and Nagarjuna would quite agree with it. In fact, > his second verse in that same work of his mentioned before lists four > categories of condition.) > > colette: again, thank you, I think I'll look for that very verse you speak of and meditate on it. Do you believe in this stuff called "Astral Projection"? I'll be looking forward to meeting you since I am "goal orientated" and this may just be the means with which to reach out and touch somebody. We shall see if minds actually do meet, huh? I enjoyed speaking with you. toodles, colette