#84000 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:13 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, We should understand that every reality that appears has arisen because of its own conditions, and that nobody creates it. Also sati should be realized as only a conditioned nåma, as dhamma, not self. We should not be discouraged if sati does not often arise, we should actually not think about the arising of sati. It is the development of understanding that is essential. We listen to the Dhamma now and we begin to understand what is dhamma. This is the result of aeons of accumulating understanding and from now on we have to continue to develop understanding for many more lives. Even one moment of understanding is beneficial since it is accumulated and can become fully developed. The goal of the eightfold Path is detachment and we should not forget that each moment of paññå is accompanied by detachment, alobha, a root arising with each kusala citta. For example, when seeing appears it can be understood as only a conditioned nåma, non-self. At that moment there is a degree, be it very slight, of detachment from the concept of self. We read in the “Verses of Uplift” (Minor Anthologies, I, 10) that Båhiya asked the Buddha for a Dhamma Discourse. The Buddha said to him: “Then, Båhiya, thus must you train yourself: In the seen there will be just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the imagined just the imagined 3 , in the cognized just the cognized. Thus you will have no ‘thereby’. That is how you must train yourself. Now, Båhiya, when in the seen there will be to you just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the imagined just the imagined, in the cognized just the cognized, then, Båhiya, as you will have no ‘thereby’, you will have no ‘therein’. As you, Bahiya, will have no ‘therein’, it follows that you will have no ‘here’ or ‘beyond’ or ‘midway between’. That is just the end of Ill.” Båhiya listened to the Buddha and truly considered his words. He developed insight so that he could clearly understand the characteristic of seeing as dhamma. He understood that seeing is only seeing, that there is nobody who sees. We read in the Commentary, the “Paramatthadípaní, the Udånatthakathå, by Dhammapåla, about the three kinds of full understanding (pariñña) which include the successive stages of vipassanå. The person who develops vipassanå sees that there are merely dhammas, occurring in dependence on conditions. We read: “...there is, in this connection, neither a doer nor one who causes things to be done, as a result of which, since (the seen) is impermanent in the sense of being non-existent after having been, dukkha in the sense of being oppressed by way of rise and fall, not- self in the sense of proceeding uncontrolled, whence the opportunity for excitement and so on with respect thereto on the part of one who is wise?” As to the words “you will have no ‘here’ or ‘beyond’ or ‘midway between’ ”, this refers to the end of rebirth. We read that Bahiya attained arahatship. After having been attacked by a calf he passed finally away. ******* Nina. #84001 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:42 am Subject: Re: Q. re [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 4. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 11-mrt-2008, om 19:41 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > A mind that is not in turmoil, like a pool of water whose surface > isn't > agitated, can be seen into with clarity. > --------------------------------------------- > Also the citta that is agitated or anxious has to be > > known. Don't you agree? > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes I do. And if agitation is present, it is seen most clearly when > attempting to meditate. It is a hindrance that is easily and > quickly known, and > in the process (ordinary English meaning for 'process') of > attending to it, it > diminishes, and there is a growth of calm. If you would engage in > meditation, Nina, you would see this for yourself. ---------- N: I listened to a Thai session where someone mentioned that after a moment of sati there were so many moments of just thinking. This thinking could be kusala or akusala thinking. Kh Sujin answered that this is very natural, and that sati should naturally arise. Just as seeing arises now, sati can arise, because of its own conditions. The conditions are (some rehash) listening. And remember the sutta I quoted: Thus, there is calm when listening carefully and alert. No need to go into a special place or to concentrate on breathing. But if a person wants to do this, let him do this and realize that there are conditions for doing so. If one wishes for more sati or wants it to last one fails to see it as just a dhamma, without possessor. Moreover, one does not need to think of sati, it is understanding that matters. In India there was a question: how to know the difference between nama and rupa? The answer: sati is aware of different characteristics and will become familiar with them. 'We" do not have to do anything special. Sati and pa~n~naa will work their way. Just some moments ago my friend Poranee phoned me from Nice and she said that she listens every day. But she is afraid to be lazy if she does not try to have sati. I said that this is not laziness. When she listens and really considers carefully, there will be more understanding and this is the condition for sati and pa~n~naa. If she tries there is lobha. If we do not try or think of having sati, it can arise unexpectantly and then we can see that it is a dhamma that has its own conditions. In this sense I woul say: we should LET it arise, not causing any hindrances to it by attachment. Detachment is the goal. Nina. #84002 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing present moment. 11 surefire things for Liberation. Jhana sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > With all due respect to KS, she should teach what she knows. I tried > to read her "metta" work and was close to nausea. Metta (or > anapanasati) isn't purely Samatha object. Metta CAN be used, and > SHOULD be used as a "Vipassana" object as well, fully capable of > leading to Arahatship (or at least anagamiship) as the SUTTAS say. .... S: You think that the development of metta (which has living being(s) as object, btw) can also be vipassana as well as samatha development(with the same object), leading to arahantship? You then quote the following sutta: .... > --------- > "Then again, a monk keeps pervading the first direction2 with an > awareness imbued with good will, likewise the second, likewise the > third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, > everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing > cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, > immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. He reflects on > this and discerns, 'This awareness-release through good will is > fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is > inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches > the ending of the mental fermentations. <...> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.052.than.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.017.than.html > ------- .... S: Fine, let's discuss this sutta a little more with the hope that anything I quote from the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation and notes doesn't also bring you 'close to nausea'. First of all, going back a little in the sutta, it says: " "Here, householder, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhaana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. He considers this and understands it thus: 'This first jhaana is conditioned and volitionally produced." **** Note 551: "abhisankhata"m abhisa~ncetayita"m. The two terms are frequently used in conjunction and indicate a conditioned state in which volition (cetanaa) is the most prominent conditioning factor." *** "But whatever is conditioned and volitionally produced is impermanent, subject to cessation.' Standing upon that, he attains the destruction of the taints." *** Note 552: "This passage explains a method for developing "insight preceded by serinity" (samathapubbangamaa vipassanaa; see AN 4:170/ii 157). Having first attained a jhaana, the meditator emerges from it and contemplates that state as brought into being by conditions, particularly volition. On the basis of this, he ascertains its impermanence, and then contemplates the jhaana with insight into the three marks of impermanence, suffering, and non-self...." .... S: Points to stress: 1. There is no vipassana, no insight into impermanence unless there is already emergence from jhana. 2. Any reality, including jhana citta or any jhana factor can be the object of insight. 3. Insight can never have the same object as these mundane jhana cittas. 4. Insight preceded by the attainment of jhana is not the only way of attainemnt. Without checking, I'm pretty sure it's the Yuganadha Sutta in AN that we're referred to which indicates also the attainment of jhana preceded by insight, dry-insight etc. .... A little later we come to your quote above. The Buddha is addressing different accumulations at the time. Now he gives the example of the bhikkhu who has developed samatha up to jhana with loving-kindness. **** "Again, a bhikkhu abides pervading one quarter.....loving-kindness......He considers this and understands it thus: 'This deliverance of mind through loving-kindness is conditioned and volitionally produced. But whatever is conditioned and volitionally produced is impermanent, subject to cessation.' Standing upon that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints.....without ever returning from that world. "This too is one thing proclaimed by the Blessed One.....wherein if a bhikkhu abides diligent, ardent, and resolute..he attains the supreme security from bondage that he had not attained before." **** S: Points to stress: 1. As with the first example, the bhikkhu must have emerged from jhana when there is any understanding of the reality of jhana or metta as being conditioned and so on. 2. The object of the jhana cittas and the vipassana cittas is quite different. 3. 'This is one thing' means it is a description of the process of enlightenment for one kind of bhikkhu with such accumulations. It's not a rule for anyone to follow. 4. It is the insight into the conditioned realities that results in the destruction of the taints, not the metta or jhana. .... S: I'll be interested to read the quote from K.Sujin's "Metta" that you found so distasteful and which you think is contradicted by this sutta, the notes I've given and the Abhidhamma. Metta, Sarah ======= #84003 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ecard from the desert hantun1 Dear Sarah, Sumane, Azita & all, > Sarah: [On this point, Han & Sumane, last time in Bangkok, Azita was reading out an interesting sutta, AN 6s, 13 'Six Routes of Escape'. It's on p. 154 in B.Bopdhi's anthology, 'Numerical Discourses'. I'd be interested to hear any of your comments. If Azita finds time, maybe she'll add a few comments of what she learnt about it!] -------------------- Han: I thank Azita for reading this sutta at the meeting, and Sarah for posting this. I have the book under reference, but it is now the first time that I am reading AN 6.13 Nissaara.niiya sutta: Six Routes of Escape. It is an interesting sutta, but not so easy to understand. Let us see the second part of the First Route of Escape: “It is impossible and inconceivable that one might develop and cultivate the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness, made it my vehicle and foundation, firmly established it, consolidated it, and properly undertaken it, and yet ill will could still persist in obsessing one’s mind: there is no such possibility. For this, friend, is the escape from ill will, namely, the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness.” Now, if the text runs like this: “If one develops and cultivates the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness, made it one’s vehicle and foundation, firmly established it, consolidated it, and properly undertaken it, there is no possibility that ill will could still persist in obsessing one’s mind” it will then be easy to understand. It will then mean that if one develops loving-kindness, when it is fully developed, it will automatically abandon ill will. It will be straight-forward and easy to understand. But the last sentence of the text: “For this, friend, is the escape from ill will, namely, the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness” invites a question. Is it that one practices loving-kindness to escape from ill will? So, the question is: (i) if you practice loving-kindness there will be no ill will, or (ii) to escape from ill will you must practice loving-kindness, or (iii) any other interpretation which I miss? Respectfully, Han #84004 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma vs. Yogacara Views of Consciousness sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Last one for now! Thanks for all your good-natured responses to me and others. You wrote earlier in this thread: A:"Interesting line found in MN26: 'Alayaraamaa kho panaaya,m pajaa aalayarataa aalayasammuditaa. aalayaraamaaya kho pana pajaaya àlayarataaya aalayasammuditaaya duddasa.m ida.m. thaana.m yadida.m idappaccayataa pa. ticcasamuppaado. http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/026-ariyapariyesana-sutta-e1.html So "Alaya" isn't stricly found only in later literature... This is the abode, the roosting place of Causes (ie Kamma), which survives temporary cessations of 6 senses. This solves the mystery of gone causes." S: In other words, you refer to alaya in 'alyaraamaa, aalayarataa, aalayasammuditaa and aalayaraamaaya' as 'abode', 'roosting place of causes (i.e. Kamma) etc. I referred to BB's translation (AN 4s, 78 `Four Wonderful Things', p.109 in Anthology)as: "People generally find pleasure in attachments, take delight in attachments and enjoy attachments. (Pali Anguttaranikaya (A II, p.131): Alayarama bhikkhave paja alayarata alayasammudita,... As I said, these meanings and translations of aalaya conform with the common meaning of `attachment,desire, craving, lust'. Now you continue: A:> Is attachment, desire, craving, lust VOLITIONS? Sure they are. > Is Kamma - volition/action? YES. ... S: Attachment, desire and craving is not VOLITIONS, it is lobha, tanha, upadana etc. Volitions (kamma) is cetana cetasika (intention). ... > Alaya is a "storehouse" (please don't reify) Kamma. Then in translation we'd have something like 'people gnerally find pleasure in a storehouse, take delight in a storehouse, enjoy storehouses..'??? I've no idea how I am reifying kamma when I'm not even referring to it:). ... > >>>>> > There is no suggestion of citta or vinnana or luminous or soul or > self. > >>>> > > I have !nowhere! stated that in this or other topic that Alaya is a > self or a soul. ... S: Fair enough. As I mentioned, this was taken from my earlier post addressed to those who had probably also thrown in a luminous and self and vinnana as well as a store-house. You have however referred to 'underlying consciousness' for bhavanga, store-house on several occasions and there was something before about vinnana....I'm sure it's only a matter of time before luminous pops up again:) Whenever there is an idea of an underlying anything, atta view is bound to be there as in the 'doing' something with free-will posts I responded to earlier... ... A:>You are twisting my words, objectifying Kammic > Reserve as a Soul and procceed to to refute what I would refute > myself. ... S: Glad to hear it! So can we refute, store-houses, underlying cittas (luminous or otherwise), free-will, self doing anything at feeling or any other time, all once and for all? ... > So we are arguing here (regarding Alaya) ONLY semantics. Both of us, > I hope, agree that Soul isn't found in 5 aggregates or outside of > them. .... S: What exactly do you mean by this? Is any self, person, willer, stopper, doer, computer, chocolate cake found in or outside the 5 aggregates or anywhere else? No hurry to respond to these! Metta, Sarah p.s Pls remember to make it clear at the top who you are addressing. ========== #84005 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] another e-card from the desert upasaka_howard Hi, Azita - In a message dated 3/12/2008 3:23:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@... writes: Hello Howard, I have managed to get into Dubai itself, accepting a ride with one of my daughters friends. My daughter Abby, works for the Sheik of Dubai, Sheik Muhummod, in one of his many horse stables. She dislikes coming to the city so when one ofthe other workers offered a ride, I accepted. Therefore a little more time for the internet:-) and maybe a spot ofshopping altho I,m rather overwhelmed by this place. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I have heard that it is simply amazing! --------------------------------------------------- > I have read all the comments from the last email, but am limited > time wise to answer any. > Just wnated to add a little more re the discussion i had with K. > was thinking more on her question about where 'we come from, who > made it all fit together so perfectly, these hands, these feet, > nature, the birds' if there was no creator? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My view is that "creation" is the joint operation of the kamma, > subconscious for the most part, of multitudes of sentient beings interacting in a > complex relational web of conditionality, and that such "motive force" has been > operative forever, without beginning. > Even one such as your friend who views God as the active and underlying > reality of and basis for worldly existence, there is likely to be the view > that creation is ongoing - that all would disappear in a puff of smoke without > being sustained by that reality, azita: interesting, however I'm not sure that she would ever entertaing the very idea that Allah could disappear in a puff of smoke:-) -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, no, not Allah, but the creation/manifestation of Allah that is "the world." ------------------------------------------------------------- and that divine reality acts through worldly > mechanism. She could well retain her belief in "the God reality" and accept > kamma as a mechanism of God's manifestation, thereby harmonizing her beliefs > with the Buddhist view of actions of sentient beings. Azita: dont know if I mentioned inthe last email that we did discuss Kamma and how it worked (in a sense) but K felt it very unfair that if she performed good deeds in this life, that as she put it, someone else would reap the benefits. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. That "someone else" take on the matter is one of the two typical extreme responses, the other being that "the very same person" reaps the benefits. The reality is a matter of neither of these, but of conditionality, and that this is the case right now, from moment to moment, and not only trans-lifetime. BTW, isn't it interesting how folks regret not being able to "reap the benefits"? Somehow they don't concern themselves with the possibility of there not being benefits but "penalties"! ;-)) -------------------------------------------------------- She was more comfortable with the view that Allah would on judgement day, balance up the good and bad and decide where one would end up. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's just putting a name, "Allah", on what is automatic function. Why could she not just as well assume that kammic mechanism is part of Allah's creation? ---------------------------------------------------- I talked about 'stream of consciousness' that one moment of consciousness arose and fell away only to be followed by another, and on and on it continued and that lasting beings were really only an illusion. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not so sure that the "illusion" approach is helpful, because it may suggest utter unreality and nonexistence. The stream of mental and physical phenomena is not just dreamed of. I think it is better to simply point out that there is nothing more to that stream than the interrelated phenomena it consists of. A rainbow metaphor might be useful, I think. A rainbow is not nothing at all, but it is not a self-existent entity either, being in fact an ungraspable event-thing that is empty of own being: a seeming-of-substance-and-unity arising upon the mere coming together of underlying conditions. Persons, like rainbows, could be decribed to K as "Allah's conjuring show." ---------------------------------------------------- However, by this stage I was being looked at with rather baffled and incredulous faces, from both K and daughter Abby. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Understandable, IMO. As I say, illusion talk seems to suggest more (or less! ;-) than the facts bear out, and it will not be understood. ---------------------------------------------------- In fact I think K was beginning to feel sorry for me, that I was so misguided and did not believe in god. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-) Well, that shows kindness on her part. ----------------------------------------------------- The night was getting very late and K had to be up very early to catch a plane back to Kuwait. We parted and she gave me a gift of a beautiful jewellery box. I particularly mention this bec. a few nites before, I had been to the Global Village where many of the middle eastern and asian countries have exhition buildings and I had been especially taken with Moroccan inlaid boxes, vases, lanterns Etc. The box K gave me was just one of these. Good vipaka for me? who knows. It is very lovely. .......... Am writing this from a friend-of-daughter's place which was a few > years ago, a smallish patch of desert in a much larger desert. He > has transformed it into a farm with horses, pomegranite and other > fruit trees and a type of masjid that smells of oud - what I think > of as the smell one would have experienced if one had travelled the > old Silk Road all that long time ago. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Again, Azita, I must tell you that I just love your word pictures! :-) Azita: maybe the old Silk Road was just as dusty and clogged asit is today, altho today it is car fumes instead of spice and camel dung, and I think to be totally accurate, it was not this far south anyway. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita =============================== With metta, Howard #84006 From: Tanyatip Chearavanont Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello! tanyatipch Hi Sarah, I'll tell my brother you said hi. He's already graduated high school, but is taking a year off before he goes off to college. So this coming Sept. he'll be at Harvard, which is almost two hours away from where my school is, but nonetheless in the same country! As I've grown older, I began questions what religion is, and why people are so dependant on it. My renewed interest in Buddhism is not quite an interest as a religion. Simply put, I think of buddhism as more of a teaching and way of life. Over the past.. 6 years, I've made a bunch of new friends from all over, and with a vareity of religious backgrounds. A close friend of mine introduced me to a mock-religion (in otherwords an Atheist union per se) called Pastafarinism [If anyone would like to know more about it, its quite entertaining in a tongue-in-cheek kind of way, just ask!]. It essentially pokes questions at Christianity and its credibility. Pastafarinism got me thinking of not only Christianity but other religions too; Buddhism obviously crossed my mind first. Because I began questioning religion, I figured I ought to learn more about it. (Hence the Buddhism forum search) So basically, I would like to know everyone's take on religion (Sorry, I know, thats incredibly vague), what sets buddhism apart from other religions, and based on that, why is it still considered a religion. --- sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tamya (Jan), (James, Betty, Chris, Betty, Howard, > Nina & all) > > You've really made my day!!!! > > Of course I remember you well (also, your brother > Kane - say a big 'hi' to > him too). <....> #84007 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:13 am Subject: What is Investigation? bhikkhu0 Friends: What is the Investigation (Vicaya) Link to Awakening? Investigation of states Link to Awakening (dhammavicaya-sambojjhanga) is basically the same mental property (pañña-cetasika), that Understands everything and which also is inherently included in the: The Understanding feet of force (vimamsiddhipÄ?da) The Ability of Understanding (paññindriya) The Power of Understanding (paññabala) The Right View Path Factor (sammÄ?-ditthi-magganga) Trained, developed and refined in a degree that completely Enlightens! If one single quality should be pointed out as thee cause of Awakening, then it is this Investigation of states Link to Awakening that Enlightens! The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (Ä?sava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops an Investigation of states Link to Awakening based on seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in relinquishment, then neither can any fermentation, nor any fever, nor discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] Remaining thus aware , then he examines, analyzes, & comes to understand that quality with penetrating insight. While thus aware , exploring into, examining, analyzing, & coming to full intuitive comprehension, then this Investigation of states Link to Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] The Ability of Investigation of states is to examine, scrutinize & analyse any chosen object & when this ability is unshakable and unfailing, it then becomes a Power of Investigation of phenomena! By thorough and eager investigation one understands that all things are caused and conditioned and as such only are compounded constructions, that pass through the inconceivably rapid moments (10-43 sec.) of arising, presence, & ceasing! Remaining neither the 'same' nor 'stable' for two consecutive moments... Comprehending this universal flux gradually disables clinging & craving... Therefore do not trust anything (especially not 'your-self'!) blindly..., but keep on examining and question what is doubtful & not quite clear. The Investigation of states Link to Awakening is the sword that cuts through the jungle of views to real seeing, understanding and knowing: <...> What is the Investigation? Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #84008 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:05 am Subject: Re: Q. re [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 4. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/12/2008 6:42:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 11-mrt-2008, om 19:41 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > A mind that is not in turmoil, like a pool of water whose surface > isn't > agitated, can be seen into with clarity. > --------------------------------------------- > Also the citta that is agitated or anxious has to be > > known. Don't you agree? > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes I do. And if agitation is present, it is seen most clearly when > attempting to meditate. It is a hindrance that is easily and > quickly known, and > in the process (ordinary English meaning for 'process') of > attending to it, it > diminishes, and there is a growth of calm. If you would engage in > meditation, Nina, you would see this for yourself. ---------- N: I listened to a Thai session where someone mentioned that after a moment of sati there were so many moments of just thinking. This thinking could be kusala or akusala thinking. Kh Sujin answered that this is very natural, and that sati should naturally arise. Just as seeing arises now, sati can arise, because of its own conditions. The conditions are (some rehash) listening. And remember the sutta I quoted: Thus, there is calm when listening carefully and alert. No need to go into a special place or to concentrate on breathing. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, my goodness, Nina! How confused the Buddha must have been when he taught the Anapanasati Sutta and the Kayagattasati sutta! Too bad that no one was around then to disabuse him of his mistaken ideas! Frankly, I find this perspective to be absurd. ------------------------------------------------------ But if a person wants to do this, let him do this and realize that there are conditions for doing so. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Of course. Nothing occurs randomly. That is exactly my point, and I think it is a point that you are missing. ------------------------------------------------------- If one wishes for more sati or wants it to last one fails to see it as just a dhamma, without possessor. Moreover, one does not need to think of sati, it is understanding that matters. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is practice that matters, and out of practice grows understanding. How to practice was spelled out by the Buddha, particularly in his suttas on sila, guarding the senses, and meditating. ------------------------------------------------------ In India there was a question: how to know the difference between nama and rupa? The answer: sati is aware of different characteristics and will become familiar with them. 'We" do not have to do anything special. Sati and pa~n~naa will work their way. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The answer *should* have been "by paying attention with a mind calmed and clarified by contemplation of the Dhamma and by sila." --------------------------------------------------------- Just some moments ago my friend Poranee phoned me from Nice and she said that she listens every day. But she is afraid to be lazy if she does not try to have sati. I said that this is not laziness. When she listens and really considers carefully, there will be more understanding and this is the condition for sati and pa~n~naa. If she tries there is lobha. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The general idea of "trying to have sati" is vague and useless - little more than mere words. But calming, purifying, and clarifying the mind by contemplating the Dhamma, by seriously guarding the senses, and by engaging in regular paying attention to what arises, especially introspectively, at all times, including the times of delimited input called "meditating," is not vague and useless, and, in fact, by doing so, the useful factors do arise, and mental cultivation becomes a reality. --------------------------------------------------------- If we do not try or think of having sati, it can arise unexpectantly and then we can see that it is a dhamma that has its own conditions. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It can arise ... or NOT. Without cultivating conditions for its arising, there is no reason to expect it to arise. Without cultivating the requisite conditions, such arising would *indeed* be unexpected! ------------------------------------------------------- In this sense I woul say: we should LET it arise, not causing any hindrances to it by attachment. Detachment is the goal. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: A pipe dream, Nina, a reverie of devotees of randomness. ----------------------------------------------------- Nina. =============================== With metta, Howard #84009 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:26 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) .. Components of Pa~n~naa in Ariyans ... scottduncan2 Dear Alex, I'll take a look now at: Indriyasamyutta 48 8 (8) A: "And where, Bhikkhus, is the faculty of wisdom to be seen? The facultry of wisdom is to be seen in four Noble Truths". Scott: In the above you've left out a word. The quote is: "And where, bhikkhus, is the faculty of wisdom to be seen? The faculty of wisdom is to be seen here in the Four Noble Truths." Scott: The word 'here' might or might not make a difference, or might or might not alter the sense of the translation. The 'here' might refer to the penetrative function of pa~n~naa in relation to any given dhamma that is object. The Paa.li: "Kattha ca bhikkhave, pa~n~nindriya.m da.t.thabba.m: catusu ariyasaccesu." Scott: I'm stuck for a moment trying to sort out the meaning of 'da.t.thabba.m'. Any help from the Paa.li scholars would be appreciated. Bear with me, Alex. I did find the following sutta, which discusses the development of pa~n~naa: AN 2. Dukanipaata 3. Baalavaggo "32. Bhikkhus, these two things are on the side of wisdom (vijjaabhaagiyaa). Which two? Calm (samatho) and insisght (vipassanaa). Bhikkhus, what is the result of developing calm? The mind is developed. What is the result of a developing the mind? Whatever greed fades. Bhikkhus, what is the result of developing insight. Wisdom gets enhanced. What is the use of enhanced wisdom? Whatever ignorance fades. Even the minor defilements, do not release the mind. The minor defilements of ignorance do not enhance wisdom. Thus bhikkhus, with the fading of greed there is release of mind and with the fading of ignorance release through wisdom." 2. 1. 3. 11. 31. Dveme bhikkhave dhammaa vijjaabhaagiyaa. Katame dve? Samatho ca vipassanaa ca. Samatho bhikkhave bhaavito kamatthamanubhoti ? Citta.m bhaaviiyati. Citta.m bhaavita.m kamatthamanubhoti? Yo raago, so pahiiyati. Vipassanaa bhikkhave bhaavito kamatthamanubhoti? Pa~n~naa bhaaviiyati. Pa~n~naa bhaavitaa kamatthamanubhoti? Yaa avijjaa, saa pahiiyati, raagupakkili.t.tha.m vaa bhikkhave citta.m na vimuccati. Avijjupakkili.t.thaa vaa pa~n~naa na bhaaviiyati. Iti kho bhikkhave raagaviraagaa cetovimutti, avijjaaviraagaa pa~n~naavimuttiiti. http://www.mettanet.net/tipitaka/index.html Sincerely, Scott. #84010 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 6 senses x3 feelings & AP interesting statement of neutral feeling of 4 senses. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, There are a couple of errors which I repeated in my post to you under this subject today: --- sarahprocterabbott wrote: > S: Again, body-sense does not feel anything. Only vedana feels. The > vedana which experiences body-consciousness can be pleasant or > unpleasant feeling only. ... S: This last sentence should have read:"The vedana which accompanies body-consciousness can be pleasant or unpleasant feeling only." ... Later, another one: > S: What you are describing is a lot more than just seeing > consciousness etc. For example, when you look at the sun, there are > moments of seeing, but also moments of body-consciousness > experiencing painful feeling and of course, thinking in between. .... S: This last sentence should have read: "For example, when you look at the sun, there are (not only) moments of seeing, but also moments of body-consciousness accompanied by painful feeling and of course, thinking in between. I must have been reading too many of your posts, lol:-)) Apologies for the confusion. If you read this before replying, grateful if you'd cut and paste in the corrections if quoting me! S. #84011 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:02 am Subject: Re: Components of Pa~n~naa in Ariyans ... truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thanks for the references. Let me look at this one first: > > SN 48 9 (9) Analysis (1) > > "And what, Bhikkhus, is the faculty of wisdom? Here, bhikkhus, the > noble disciple is wise; he possesses wisdom directed to arising and > passing away, which is noble and penetrative, leading to complete > destruction of suffering. This is called the faculty of wisdom." > > Scott: Please note the Commentarial explanation: > > "Note 196. Spk: In this sutta the faculties of faith, mindfulness, > and wisdom are preliminary (pubbabhaaga, i.e., forerunners of the > supramundane path)..." > > Scott: This is good enough for me. I'm not asking that you buy it... > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Please note the phrase "Here, bhikkhus, the noble disciple is wise; " Noble disciple = ariya, generally is refered to stream enterer or higher. The big breakthrough to Stream entry can be very briefly summarized as Seeing "Whatever is subject to origination, all that is subject to cessation." AND comprehending FULL implications of that. Lots of Metta, Alex #84012 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:08 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) .. Components of Pa~n~naa in Ariyans ... scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: Me: "I'm stuck for a moment trying to sort out the meaning of 'da.t.thabba.m'. Any help from the Paa.li scholars would be appreciated. Bear with me, Alex..." Scott: I think the verb is 'dassana', which must refer to a function of pa~n~naa. I'll be back... Sincerely, Scott. #84013 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:22 am Subject: Re: Understanding. ... Back to Ground Zero .... truth_aerator Dear James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > "Amoha" > ------- "Even when one becomes a Stream-winner (Sotapanna), Once-returner (Sakadagami) or Non-returner (Anagami), anusaya moha only becomes thinner and thinner. Only when one attains Arahantship, is the anusaya moha dhatu, the latent delusion, completely eliminated. Therefore, even at the moment of performing good deeds or wholesome actions before becoming an Arahant, anusaya moha is present; it is only lying latent and quiet. " Not Knowing is Not Always Moha As moha is explained as not knowing, some people think that not knowing a subject which one has not studied not knowing places where one has not been to, not remembering names which one has not been acquainted with, are also moha. Such kind of not knowing is merely lack of knowledge; it is not real moha at all; hence it is not an unwholesome mental factor; it is merely the absence of recognition, or perception, sanna, that has not perceived it before. Even Arahants have such a kind of not-knowing, let alone ordinary common worldling. Even the Venerable Sariputta, who is second only to the Buddha in wisdom, taught a meditation practice inappropriate to a young bhikkhu. Thinking that the young bhikkhu was at the lustful age, he prescribed asubha kammatthana, meditation on unpleasant objects (e.g., decaying corpses) which did not go with his pupil's disposition. Even though the pupil meditated for four months, he could not get the slightest nimitta, sign of concentration. http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/abdmjnka.htm I'd like to say that Amoha isn't synonymos with Omniscient Knowledge. A person can have lots of Amoha, be an Arahant like Sariputta and STILL make some mistakes. An Arahant CAN be taught some finer points. >>>>>>> James: Panna is a supernormal power. This power can be developed to read other's minds, duplicate the body, etc., or it can be developed to rid the mind of its defilements. Panna is supermundane and a component of the path called Supermundane Right View. >>>>> Other, non-Buddhist ascetics had 5 of thr 6 powers. Yet they weren't even stream enterers. >>>>>> This is the definition of panna according to the Abhidhamma. Of > course, this presentation brought on comments from all of the KS > followers as they like to believe that panna is present before the > stage of sotapanna, in a weaker form. However, anything weaker is > not amoha. >>> I am NOT KS follower, but I believe that preliminary Panna IS present in at least SOME worldlings. > > > > > > Please explain to me the phrase from MN26 > > 'Not only does Alara Kalama have conviction, persistence, > > mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. I, too, have > conviction, > > persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment > > > > (discernment is how Aj. TB has translated Panna) > > http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > > Nikaya/Majjhima1/026-ariyapariyesana-p.html > > > James: Again, anything lesser isn't amoha. > But it is a preliminary panna. > Alara Kalama and Udakka > > possessed panna very close to Stream. > > James: Could you give me a link to what you are referring to? > MN26 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html Alara Kalama & Udakka were said to posses Panna, and so did the Bodhisatta who has said that he has possess panna like them. "I thought: 'Not only does Alara Kalama have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. I, too, have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the Dhamma that Alara Kalama declares he has entered & dwells in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.' So it was not long before I quickly entered & dwelled in that Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. I went to him and said, 'Friend Kalama, is this the extent to which you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge?' "'Yes, my friend...' "'This, friend, is the extent to which I, too, have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.' "'It is a gain for us, my friend, a great gain for us, that we have such a companion in the holy life. So the Dhamma I declare I have entered & dwell in, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge. And the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma I declare I have entered & dwell in, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. The Dhamma I know is the Dhamma you know; the Dhamma you know is the Dhamma I know. As I am, so are you; as you are, so am I. Come friend, let us now lead this community together.' " Here it appears to say that GOTAMA had panna the same level as Alara Kalama (and in another part of this sutta, Rama)!!!! Go figure what this implies to the Mahayana Bodhisatta Myth... > James: Mundane right view isn't "panna" ,amoha, because it has > fermentations. It is just mundane right view. > Its just mundane panna... :) I guess a lot of argument on this issue COULD be semantics... Lots of Metta, Alex #84014 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:30 am Subject: Re: Components of Pa~n~naa in Ariyans ... scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Me: Please note the Commentarial explanation: "Note 196. Spk: In this sutta the faculties of faith, mindfulness, and wisdom are preliminary (pubbabhaaga, i.e., forerunners of the supramundane path)..." Scott: I think we agree that pa~n~naa develops and can be mundane and still be pa~n~naa. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. Sincerely, Scott. #84015 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:48 am Subject: Re: Components of Pa~n~naa in Ariyans ... truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Me: Please note the Commentarial explanation: > > "Note 196. Spk: In this sutta the faculties of faith, mindfulness, > and wisdom are preliminary (pubbabhaaga, i.e., forerunners of the > supramundane path)..." > > Scott: I think we agree that pa~n~naa develops and can be mundane and > still be pa~n~naa. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Read MN26. Apparently Both Alara Kalama and Rama had 5 faculties http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/026-ariyapariyesana-p.html (paragraph #18 & #21) Alara & Rama possesed "saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi, panna" And Gotama has said that he possesed them as well as those teachers. Of course Panna is of various degrees, some mundane, some supramandane. Quick question: What is the difference if any between Panna and Samma- Ditthi ? Lots of Metta, Alex #84016 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Seeing present moment. 11 surefire things for Liberation. Jhana truth_aerator Dear Sarah and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: You think that the development of metta (which has living being (s) as object, btw) can also be vipassana as well as samatha development(with the same object), leading to arahantship? You then quote the following sutta: > .... The thing is that one of the things which is most important in ANY meditation is seeing the IMPERSONAL PROCESS ocurring as one is trying to hold one thing in the mind, like a target. Doesn't matter if it is breath, metta, or Asubha. Furthermore, imagining actual beings is a preliminary part of Metta, NOT the entire (or advance practice). Furthermore the anchor of Metta can be kusala state of adosa, rather than beings. > .... > First of all, going back a little in the sutta, it says: > > **** > Note 551: "abhisankhata"m abhisa~ncetayita"m. The two terms are frequently used in conjunction and indicate a conditioned state in which volition (cetanaa) is the most prominent conditioning factor." > *** > "But whatever is conditioned and volitionally produced is impermanent, subject to cessation.' Standing upon that, he attains the destruction of the taints." > *** > Note 552: "This passage explains a method for developing "insight preceded by serinity" (samathapubbangamaa vipassanaa; see AN 4:170/ii 157). Having first attained a jhaana, the meditator emerges from it and contemplates that state as brought into being by conditions, particularly volition. >>>> In the suttas the emergence requirment ISN'T stated. Now, of course one cannot think in 2nd or higher Jhanas so falling to 1st Jhana or lower is required for Active Though processes. However contemplation DOES NOT have to be with thoughts (vitakka). In fact intuitive understanding can be just as, if not more powerful. > S: Points to stress: > > 1. There is no vipassana, no insight into impermanence unless there is already emergence from jhana. >>>>> Dear Sarah, this is commentarial thing. In MN111 it says that a form of [intuitive, non thinking] insight is present UP TO base of nothingness. >> > 2. Any reality, including jhana citta or any jhana factor can be the > object of insight. > True, but in Jhana or when 5 hindrances are gone - IS THE BEST if not the ONLY place where the contemplation and insight isn't simply bare concepts. A person can learn ALL AP and SUTTAS by heart, yet remain a Worldling. Why is that? Because s/he hasn't PENETRATED WITH SEEING. If mind isn't pure (of defilements) then DEEP knowledge wouldn't be 100% understood on a level that matters. >> 3. Insight can never have the same object as these mundane jhana cittas. >>>> All 8 levels of Jhana are mundane and accessible even to bad people (MN115 or 113, somewhere there). Only 9th level is supramandane. Now, the way one uses Jhana determines a lot about the results which will happen. > 4. Insight preceded by the attainment of jhana is not the only way of attainemnt. Without checking, I'm pretty sure it's the Yuganadha Sutta in AN that we're referred to which indicates also the attainment of jhana preceded by insight, dry-insight etc. >>>> I bet you will also quote Bahiya sutta and other like that. 1)According to commentaries, Bahiya was a master meditator during time of Buddha Kassapa. He with his friends have meditated on a mountain TILL death. In his last existence he was a forest dweller before hearing a anagamin deva and travelling (1,300 KM or so I've heard) in ONE NIGHT. So he had clairvoyance, he also had psychic powers and could travel probably as fast as 108-130 km/h which is approximately 60+ MPH. Etc etc. If you had such abilities and meditation skills, then you could too achieve arahatship from hearing. 2) Susima Sutta: says nothing about LACK OF JHANA attainments, those Arahats have denied only ARUPA and PSYCHIC POWERS. Again, if you were on THEIR level of Panna, then you TOO could have achieved Arahatship. 3) Yugananda sutta: NONE of the 4 ways lack samma-samadhi. The 4th way which you describe "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.170.than.html Note almost a stock phrase "his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born." Thats stock description of samadhi culminating in JHANA. Look, if one cannot overpower 5 hindrances then how can one become an Ariya, especially of Anagami/Arahat class? > S: Points to stress: > > 1. As with the first example, the bhikkhu must have emerged from jhana when there is any understanding of the reality of jhana or metta as being conditioned and so on. >>> See my responce above > 2. The object of the jhana cittas and the vipassana cittas is quite > different. >>> As I've said, Jhana can be used as Insight practice. > > 3. 'This is one thing' means it is a description of the process of > enlightenment for one kind of bhikkhu with such accumulations. It's not a rule for anyone to follow. >>>> If you and me haven't achieved Arahatship by reading to 100x the amount of what Bahiya and such have heard, then it is SAFE TO CONCLUDE that we need MORE than just reading. > 4. It is the insight into the conditioned realities that results in the > destruction of the taints, not the metta or jhana. > .... TRUE! Where here did I say that Jhana itself is nessesery? No where. It is a tool that can be used either for building up the round (in rupa/arupa rebirths) OR to freedom from the Wheel. > S: I'll be interested to read the quote from K.Sujin's "Metta" that you found so distasteful and which you think is contradicted by this sutta, the notes I've given and the Abhidhamma. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > Buddha didn't ever teach hid disciples samatha for liberation. He taught Jhana with Insight. For example Anapanasati HAS lots of INSIGHT steps about 10 steps out of 16 are insight steps. And if to be precise, insight isn't a practice it is a result (of Sammadhi). Samadhi is a practice, seeing things as they are is a result with Samadhi as a proximate cause (see upanisa sutta). Another contradiction between CMA/Commentaries and suttas: Metta can bring one UP TO 4TH Jhana, compassing to Infinite space, altruistic joy to infinite consciousness and Equinimity to BASE OF NOTHINGNESS (7th Jhana). See CDB pg 1607-1609. And of course Anapanasati can bring one all the way to cessation of perception & feelings (dipa sutta in SN). Not to the "access" or 4th Jhana. Lots of Metta, Alex #84017 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) .. Components of Pa~n~naa in Ariyans ... nilovg Dear Scott, Op 12-mrt-2008, om 13:26 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I'm stuck for a moment trying to sort out the meaning of > 'da.t.thabba.m'. ------ N: Must (should, can) be seen. Passati: to see. Nina. #84018 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:49 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) .. Components of Pa~n~naa in Ariyans ... truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Scott: In the above you've left out a word. The quote is: >>>. Thank you for correcting me. I've didn't see that as I was retyping it from the book to the computer. Can you comment on Pali MN26, where Buddha declared his panna to be on the level of Alara Kalama's panna? (Same with Rama)? > Scott: The word 'here' might or might not make a difference, or might or might not alter the sense of the translation. The 'here' might refer to the penetrative function of pa~n~naa in relation to any given dhamma that is object. >>>> Wisdom of an Ariya means seeing DO and that includes seeing DO of EVERYTHING (including CONSCIOUSNESS), not just one particular thing. >>>>>>> Bear with me, Alex. I did find the following sutta, > which discusses the development of pa~n~naa: > > AN 2. Dukanipaata 3. Baalavaggo > > "32. Bhikkhus, these two things are on the side of wisdom > (vijjaabhaagiyaa). Which two? Calm (samatho) and insisght > (vipassanaa). Bhikkhus, what is the result of developing calm? The > mind is developed. What is the result of a developing the mind? > Whatever greed fades. > > Bhikkhus, what is the result of developing insight. Wisdom gets > enhanced. What is the use of enhanced wisdom? Whatever ignorance > fades. Even the minor defilements, do not release the mind. The minor > defilements of ignorance do not enhance wisdom. Thus bhikkhus, with > the fading of greed there is release of mind and with the fading of > ignorance release through wisdom." > 2 comments about this very famous sutta: 1) Vipassana comes WITH Samatha (you can't clearly see the mind overtaken by hindrances, and the mind overtaken by hindrances CAN'T see clearly anyways) 2) Samatha develops the mind, which IS important for insight to take over and see DO. 3) In many suttas where "Vipassana" is mentioned, Samatha is mentioned right there as well. Both are like two legs, you need BOTH! Lots of Metta, Alex #84019 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:11 am Subject: Re: Q. re [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 4. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 12-mrt-2008, om 13:05 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Thus, there is calm when listening carefully and alert. No need to go > into a special place or to concentrate on breathing. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, my goodness, Nina! How confused the Buddha must have been > when he > taught the Anapanasati Sutta and the Kayagattasati sutta! Too bad > that no one > was around then to disabuse him of his mistaken ideas! > Frankly, I find this perspective to be absurd. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: Note: I did not say anapanasati, I said concentrate on breathing > which is quite something else. Here is the grave misunderstanding, > always. Should I rehash? Just focussing on breath is not anapanasati. A high degree of pa~n~naa is needed for this subject which is one of the most difficult ones. Breath is very subtle: rupa conditioned by citta, nothing else. This subject should lead to detachment. It has to be known when the citta is akusala with attachment to 'my breathing' and when it is kusala with detachment. ------- > > N: If one wishes for more sati or wants it to last one fails to see it > as just a dhamma, without possessor. Moreover, one does not need to > think of sati, it is understanding that matters. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is practice that matters, and out of practice grows understanding. > How to practice was spelled out by the Buddha, particularly in his > suttas on > sila, guarding the senses, and meditating. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: No, it is not this way: just practise and then understanding > will come. Understanding of what one is doing, what the citta is > like at that moment: kusala or akusala. ---------- > N: In India there was a question: how to know the difference between > nama and rupa? The answer: sati is aware of different characteristics > and will become familiar with them. 'We" do not have to do anything > special. Sati and pa~n~naa will work their way. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The answer *should* have been "by paying attention with a mind calmed > and clarified by contemplation of the Dhamma and by sila." > --------------------------------------------------------- N: There may be an idea of self who is paying attention with a calm mind. Or attachment to a clear and calm mind. Pa~n~naa is needed to see through it all. -------- > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > ... But calming, purifying, and clarifying the mind by > contemplating the Dhamma, by seriously guarding the senses, and by > engaging in > regular paying attention to what arises, especially > introspectively, at all > times, including the times of delimited input called "meditating," > is not vague > and useless, and, in fact, by doing so, the useful factors do > arise, and > mental cultivation becomes a reality. > --------------------------------------------------------- N: If you find that the way you should go, I have nothing to say. I see the 'delimited input called "meditating" ', as selecting objects of awareness. I think that one misses the mark and cannot see that sati arises because of its own conditions. But you need not agree. I will not try to convince you. I hope I made clear that I see a difference in just focussing on breath without knowing anything and the development of anapanasati, mindfulness of breath. It is not called: concentration on breath. Pa~n~naa is needed in the first place. -------- > N: If we do not try or think of having sati, it can arise > unexpectantly > and then we can see that it is a dhamma that has its own conditions. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It can arise ... or NOT. ------ N: Very good! It is anatta. We can learn in this way that it is anatta. -------- > H: Without cultivating conditions for its arising, > there is no reason to expect it to arise. Without cultivating the > requisite > conditions, such arising would *indeed* be unexpected! > ------------------------------------------------------- N: I explained before what I consider the right conditions, but we do not know when these operate, at which moment. The reason is that nobody can direct sati. Nobody can direct seeing or hearing, having it arise at will, at a particular moment. It is the same with sati. ------- > N: In this sense I woul say: we should LET it arise, not causing any > hindrances to it by attachment. Detachment is the goal. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > A pipe dream, Nina, a reverie of devotees of randomness. ----- N: You do not get my point. I will not add anymore. Nina. #84020 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:11 am Subject: Re: Q. re [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 4. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/12/2008 12:12:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 12-mrt-2008, om 13:05 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Thus, there is calm when listening carefully and alert. No need to go > into a special place or to concentrate on breathing. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, my goodness, Nina! How confused the Buddha must have been > when he > taught the Anapanasati Sutta and the Kayagattasati sutta! Too bad > that no one > was around then to disabuse him of his mistaken ideas! > Frankly, I find this perspective to be absurd. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: Note: I did not say anapanasati, I said concentrate on breathing > which is quite something else. Here is the grave misunderstanding, > always. Should I rehash? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, thanks, I'm quite familiar with it. ---------------------------------------------- Just focussing on breath is not anapanasati. A high degree of pa~n~naa is needed for this subject which is one of the most difficult ones. Breath is very subtle: rupa conditioned by citta, nothing else. This subject should lead to detachment. It has to be known when the citta is akusala with attachment to 'my breathing' and when it is kusala with detachment. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mindfulness with breathing is my vehicle, Nina. I'm aware of what's involved. I've been practicing, properly, for years. ------------------------------------------------------- ------- > > N: If one wishes for more sati or wants it to last one fails to see it > as just a dhamma, without possessor. Moreover, one does not need to > think of sati, it is understanding that matters. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is practice that matters, and out of practice grows understanding. > How to practice was spelled out by the Buddha, particularly in his > suttas on > sila, guarding the senses, and meditating. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: No, it is not this way: just practise and then understanding > will come. Understanding of what one is doing, what the citta is > like at that moment: kusala or akusala. ---------- > N: In India there was a question: how to know the difference between > nama and rupa? The answer: sati is aware of different characteristics > and will become familiar with them. 'We" do not have to do anything > special. Sati and pa~n~naa will work their way. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The answer *should* have been "by paying attention with a mind calmed > and clarified by contemplation of the Dhamma and by sila." > --------------------------------------------------------- N: There may be an idea of self who is paying attention with a calm mind. Or attachment to a clear and calm mind. Pa~n~naa is needed to see through it all. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: So? The factors will develop, but not by good luck - only by doing the right thing. -------------------------------------------------- -------- > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > ... But calming, purifying, and clarifying the mind by > contemplating the Dhamma, by seriously guarding the senses, and by > engaging in > regular paying attention to what arises, especially > introspectively, at all > times, including the times of delimited input called "meditating," > is not vague > and useless, and, in fact, by doing so, the useful factors do > arise, and > mental cultivation becomes a reality. > --------------------------------------------------------- N: If you find that the way you should go, I have nothing to say. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: ;-) -------------------------------------------------------- I see the 'delimited input called "meditating" ', as selecting objects of awareness. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: You are free to see it however you wish, but the Buddha taught meditation differently. There is no problem in limiting input. If you would meditate you would see the benefit. But without meditating you cannot, and do not, know what is actually involved. ----------------------------------------------------- I think that one misses the mark and cannot see that sati arises because of its own conditions. But you need not agree. I will not try to convince you. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I DO agree. What we disagree on is the matter of those conditions coming about based on nothing but study. That is not what the Buddha taught. It is not the Dhamma. I think that those who don't take seriously the practice teachings of the Buddha are seriously wasting their time. -------------------------------------------------------- I hope I made clear that I see a difference in just focussing on breath without knowing anything and the development of anapanasati, mindfulness of breath. It is not called: concentration on breath. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You will rarely see me talking about concentration. And I don't need someone to make clear to me that anapansati is not a focused, going-into-trance procedure. I know what it is. -------------------------------------------------- Pa~n~naa is needed in the first place. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: The only wisdom needed at first is the wisdom to follow the Buddha's instructions. One starts as a worldling, not an ariyan. If one waits for pa~n~na without following the Buddha's instructions, one will wait forever. ------------------------------------------------ -------- > N: If we do not try or think of having sati, it can arise > unexpectantly > and then we can see that it is a dhamma that has its own conditions. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It can arise ... or NOT. ------ N: Very good! It is anatta. We can learn in this way that it is anatta. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: No, not so good. Do the right things, and it will arise. Do not, and it will not. --------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > H: Without cultivating conditions for its arising, > there is no reason to expect it to arise. Without cultivating the > requisite > conditions, such arising would *indeed* be unexpected! > ------------------------------------------------------- N: I explained before what I consider the right conditions, but we do not know when these operate, at which moment. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This means you depend on random good fortune, as does most of the world, instead of depending on the Buddha's instructions. Simply amazing! ---------------------------------------------------------------- The reason is that nobody can direct sati. Nobody can direct seeing or hearing, having it arise at will, at a particular moment. It is the same with sati. ------- > N: In this sense I woul say: we should LET it arise, not causing any > hindrances to it by attachment. Detachment is the goal. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > A pipe dream, Nina, a reverie of devotees of randomness. ----- N: You do not get my point. I will not add anymore. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I seriously think that you don't get the point, Nina, and this point is of supreme importance. -------------------------------------------------------- Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard #84021 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities nilovg Hi James, Op 12-mrt-2008, om 2:28 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > When one has fully developed the Brahma-viharas, > then he/she can turn the mind toward mentality and materiality, not > before. ----- N: I appreciate it that you value much the brahmaviharas. By having more understanding of nama and rupa it can support the brahmaviharas. Clinging to the importance of self can lessen by seeing self and person as nama and rupa. It is this clinging to 'our important person' that is obstructing the brahmaviharas. Also, being partial : liking this person but not that person, is in the way. It helps to see that we all are only fleeting phenomena. We are born, and live here for a short while, then we all have to depart to another world. Life is too short to quarrel, to find fault with one another. It is as short as one moment of citta that arises and falls away. That reminds not to waste our life away with adhamma things. Nina. #84022 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (104) nilovg Dear Han, Op 12-mrt-2008, om 6:48 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I will next take up the Perfection of Renunciation. > Before that, I will post one more message on a Jaataka > story depicting the Perfection of Patience. ------- N: Thank you very much. That is a good idea. Each time I find it helpful to read about patience with other people, undertaking the task of friendship, causing to live in harmony. Nina. #84023 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (20) nilovg Dear Han, Op 12-mrt-2008, om 7:04 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > There are only dhammas that are conditioning, and only > dhammas that are conditioned. No ‘person’ is involved. ------ N: I appreciate these reminders. What I wanted to ask: at which occasions the Patthaana is chanted in Birma? Not the whole of it in one stretch? Did you learn the Pali verses by heart and chanted them? Nina. #84024 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. nilovg Dear Colette, Op 11-mrt-2008, om 18:05 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > I'm working with the Trikaya at the moment but this topic, which Alex > focuses on, is interesting since it suggestes something pre-existing > the cognition of the experience. > eye consciousness exists but Alex suggests that the "rupa" either > previously exists or only exists at the second of cognition. ------ N: It arises before but has not fallen away yet when seeing arises. So, seeing can see visible object that is still there for a few extremely brief moments. ------- Nina. #84025 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:10 pm Subject: Re: 16th & 18th Feb Bangkok: sharing some thoughts truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" > wrote: > <...> > > The trick is to do everything correctly and balance faculties (slight imbalance of which can make all the difference.) > ... > S: Again, who or what does this doing? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= Vinnana-nama-rupa, or 5 aggregates. But with all of this said and done, what must be done MUST BE DONE. Using anatta as a strategy not to do anything since "no body can do anything" is defeating the whole point of Budddha's teaching - a path towards cessation of all suffering. Lots of Metta, Alex #84026 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 6 senses x3 feelings & AP interesting statement of neutral feeling of 4 senses. truth_aerator Hi Sarah, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Alex, S: This last sentence should have read:"The vedana which accompanies > body-consciousness can be pleasant or unpleasant feeling only." > ... >>>> "And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: With that, too, he grows disenchanted. " repeated for the other 5 senses http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.028.than.html In my opinion, retranslating above "eye feels" only neutral and the mind is that which perceives pleasure/pain is a bit forced. Furthermore if we DO accept that it is the MIND FEELING ONLY, which feels pain or pleasure (as opposed to the sense feeling/consciousness) - then we have to admit that for example sour/sweet tastes are NOT inherently existing things - they are produced by the mind. Which means that they could be percieved in opposite ways if there could be control the mind... Or very painful sound of a chainsaw could be reinterpreted by the mind as pleasure rather than pain.... Or that unpleasant smell of the rotting flesh or pleasant fragrance of a rose is not inherently existing "thing" but is again produced by the mind. Which means that they could be percieved in opposite ways if there could be control the mind... Etc etc. Lots of Metta, Alex #84027 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (20) hantun1 Dear Nina, There are chanting associations (or clubs, you might say) all over the country. In big cities like Yangon there are these clubs in each Township or Quarters. We chant regularly on Buddhist sabbath days (the four phases of the moon which occur about once a week). We chant not at the temples but at a special building built or rented for this purpose. We usually chant Eleven Mahaa Paritta, Dhammacakkappavattana sutta, Anattalakkhana sutta, and Pathaana. Not all in one day, though. But when we take up Patthaana we chant the whole 24 conditions in abridged form (the verses that I am presenting now) in one sitting. We chant in Pali. Some know them by heart. People like me have to look at small booklets. There are also sub-groups who chant only Dhammacakka or only Patthaana. The complete version of Patthaana, in five big volumes in Pali, are chanted by the monks only. They chant non-stop, in shifts, and it takes them about four or five days to finish one time from beginning to end. These chanting by the monks are done not weekly, but on special occasions. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > What I wanted to ask: at which occasions the > Patthaana is chanted in > Birma? Not the whole of it in one stretch? Did you > learn the Pali > verses by heart and chanted them? > Nina. #84028 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:34 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,246 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga),Ch. XVII 246. Sense-desire clinging, however, is taught first among them because of the breadth of its objective field and because of its obviousness. For it has a broad objective field because it is associated with the eight kinds of consciousness ((22)-(29)). The others have a narrow objective field because they are associated with four kinds of consciousness ((22), (23), (26) and (27)). And usually it is sense-desire clinging that is obvious because of this generation's love of attachment (see M.i,167), not so the other kinds. One possessed of sense-desire clinging is much given to display and ceremony (see M.i,265) for the purpose of attaining sense desires. [False-] view clinging comes next to the [sense-desire clinging] since that [display and ceremony] is a [false-] view of his. 42 And that is then divided in two as rite-an-ritual clinging and self-doctrine clinging. And of these two, rite-and-ritual clinging is taught first, being gross, because it can be recognized on seeing [it in the forms of] ox practice and dog practice. And self-doctrine clinging is taught last because of its subtlety. This is the 'order of teaching'. ------------------------- Note 42. P.T.S. ed. has 'sassatan ti'; Harvard ed., 'saa' ssa di.t.thii ti; VbhA. (Burm. ed.), 'na sassatadi.t.thii ti'. ********************** 246. mahaavisayattaa pana paaka.tattaa ca etesu kaamupaadaana.m pa.thama.m desita.m. mahaavisaya.m hi ta.m a.t.thacittasampayogaa, appavisayaani itaraani catucittasampayogaa, yebhuyyena ca aalayaraamattaa pajaaya paaka.ta.m kaamupaadaana.m, na itaraani. kaamupaadaana vaa kaamaana.m samadhigamattha.m kotuuhalama"ngalaadibahulo hoti, saassa di.t.thiiti tadanantara.m di.t.thupaadaana.m, ta.m pabhijjamaana.m siilabbataattavaadupaadaanavasena duvidha.m hoti. tasmi.m dvaye gokiriya.m kukkurakiriya.m vaa disvaapi veditabbato o.laarikanti siilabbatupaadaana.m pa.thama.m desita.m. sukhumattaa ante attavaadupaadaananti ayametesa.m desanaakkamo. #84029 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:15 pm Subject: Re: Components of Pa~n~naa in Ariyans ... scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "Quick question: What is the difference if any between Panna and Samma-Ditthi?" Scott: Pa~n~naa cetasika *is* samma-di.t.thi. MN117: "6. And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Right view, I say, is twofold: there is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions (sammaadi.t.thi saasavaa pu~n~naabhaagiyaa upadhivepakkaa); and there is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path (sammaadi.t.thi ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga"ngaa). "7. And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions? 'There is what is given (atthi dinna.m) and what is offered (atthi yi.t.tha.m) and what is sacrificed (atthi huta.m); there is fruit and the result of good and bad actions (atthi suka.tadukka.taana.m kammaana.m phala.m vipaako); there is this world (atthi aya.m loko) and the other world (atthi paro loko); there is mother and father (atthi maataa, atthi pitaa); there are beings who are reborn spontaneously (atthi sattaa opapaatikaa); there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world (atthi loke sama.nabraahma.naa sammaggataa sammaapa.tipannaa).' This is right view affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions. "8. And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The wisdom (pa~n~naa), the faculty of wisdom (pa~n~nindriya.m) , the power of wisdom (pa~n~naabala.m) , the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor (dhammavicayasambojjha"ngo), the path factor or right view in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path; this is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path (sammaadi.t.thi magga"nga.m aya.m vuccati bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga"ngaa)." Sincerely, Scott. #84030 From: "connie" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:57 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,246 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.685: And of them, the grasping of sense-desires is taught first, owing to its large province and obviousness. For through association with the eight classes of consciousness, it has a large province; the others have small provinces being associated with four consciousnesses. And generally it is obvious as being an abode in which mankind delights; not so are the others. One who has a grasping for sense-desires makes much fuss and festivity in order that he may attain his objects. This is his {construe sassatan as sa assa tan} grasping of views, which accordingly is shown immediately after the other kind of grasping. It branches off into two: by way of the grasping of rite and ritual and of a theory of the self. Of the two the grasping of rite and ritual, being gross, is shown first, being easily understood on seeing the cow-and-dog-rites. Finally owing to its subtleness comes the grasping of a theory of the self. Such is the order of their instruction. #84031 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:00 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) .. Components of Pa~n~naa in Ariyans ... scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "Can you comment on Pali MN26, where Buddha declared his panna to be on the level of Alara Kalama's panna? (Same with Rama)?" Scott: No, not really. Can you make a point about this? I don't tend to think in terms of persons with this or that level of anything, I'm afraid. In this we differ. Sincerely, Scott. #84032 From: "connie" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:09 pm Subject: lost in the ocean of concepts nichiconn Dear Friends, Just a sentence that I think sums up even those of us who sometimes think we're well on our way to being our own island: << As a matter of fact, in the darkness caused by the cloud, while the god was raining, the prince, swept along by the river, seeing a certain tree-trunk, clambered on it, and sitting astride of it, traveled along, terrified with the fear of death, lamenting. >> - 'Prince Wicked', p.7, Burlingame's "Buddhist Parable's" peace, connie #84033 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) .. Components of Pa~n~naa in Ariyans ... lbidd2 Hi Alex, Alex: "Can you comment on Pali MN26, where Buddha declared his panna to be on the level of Alara Kalama's panna? (Same with Rama)?" Larry: Before the Buddha's enlightenment he went to Alara Kalama for instruction. He learned the concepts but that wasn't enough. He said to himself Alara Kalama has the 5 spiritual faculties and I have the 5 spiritual faculties so I should be able to realize Alara Kalama's attainment, the jhana known as the base of nothingness. And he did, but that wasn't enough. He still wasn't satisfied. He had to go further. Larry #84034 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:12 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (105) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - I have just finished the chapter on the Perfection of Patience. But before moving on to another chapter, I would like to post another Jaataka story depicting the Perfection of Patience. It is Khantivaadii Jaataka (no. 313) Once, when a debauch King Kalabu was the king of Varanasi, the Bodhisatta was born in the family of a wealthy merchant. His name was then Kundaka Kumar. On the death of his parents he realised the futility of amassing the wealth, because the wealth becomes useless after the death. So he renounced all his riches and went to the Himalayas to lead a life of an ascetic. In course of time he returned to Varanasi to collect salt and vinegar. There he became the guest of the commander-in-chief and was given an abode in the royal park. One day, King Kalabu, while under the influence of strong drinks, visited the royal park surrounded by the female dancers. He laid his head on the lap of one of his favourite women and started revelling in the dance and music. Soon he dozed off. When the women found him sleeping they left him and started frolicking in the park. Discovering the ascetic meditating in the park they requested him to give some sermon. In the mean time the king woke up and enquired about his women. Not finding them around, he looked for them in the park and found them surrounding the holy sage. Infuriated at the sight of his women being attracted to another man, he drew out his sword to kill him. However, when persuaded by the women he stopped. Yet, in his anger he asked the ascetic: “What doctrine you preach?” “The doctrine of forbearance, sir”, the holy sage replied. “What is this forbearance?”, asked the angry king. “Not to be angry when men abuse you and beat you”, answered the ascetic. Saying,“I will test your forbearance then”, the king ordered his men to give the ascetic two thousand lashes with the whip of thorns. When this was done, the king scornfully asked, “what doctrine do you preach?” "The doctrine of forbearance, Your Majesty”, the unruffled the Bodhisatta replied. “Cut off the hands of this spurious ascetic”, the king ordered. This was also done. He then ordered, “Cut off his feet, too”. His feet were also chopped off. “What do you preach, now?”, again the king asked, expecting him to change his view. “I practise the doctrine of forbearance, sir” said the ascetic. This further infuriated the king; who got his nose and ears cut off. Then the Bodhisatta said, “my forbearance is seated not on my nose or ears, but is deep inside my heart”. By then, the king's anger knew no bounds, and he raised his foot and stomped the ascetic on his chest over the heart and left the place. The General who had invited the ascetic heard of his pitiful state, and at once he hurried to his presence. By that time the Bodhisatta was steeped in blood. Quickly he applied some ointment and begged him not to be angry with the people of the kingdom. The merciful ascetic said, “Men like us never get angry with anyone” and he even prayed for the king, "He who caused my hands and feet, nose and ears, to be cut off, may that king live long!" The Bodhisatta died of his wounds soon after. When the king was returning to his palace, the earth split and devoured him then and there. ------------------------------ I will begin the chapter on the Perfection of Renunciation from next post. Metta, Han #84035 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:37 pm Subject: Patthaana (21) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of (3). Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya) The Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya) has two components: (1) the conascence predominance (sahajaataadhipati), which comprises (i) predominant desire or chandaadhipati, (ii) predominant effort or viiriyaadhipati, (iii) predominant consciousness or cittaadhipati, and (iv) predominant investigation or viimamsaadhipati; and (2) the object predominance (aaramma.naadhipati). Today, we will take up the conascence predominance (sahajaataadhipati). The Buddha mentioned the four factors (desire, energy, mind, and investigation) as wholesome qualities that can develop the concentration and iddhipaadas (foundations of accomplishment) in SN 51.13 Chanda-samaadhi sutta in Iddhipaada-samyutta (translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi). If a bhikkhu gains concentration due to desire (chanda-samaadhi). (i) He generates desire for the nonarising of unarisen evil unwholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. (ii) He generates desire for the abandoning of arisen evil unwholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. (iii) He generates desire for the arising of unarisen wholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. (iv) He generates desire for the maintenance of arisen wholesome states, for their non-decay, increase, expansion, and fulfillment by development; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. These are called volitional formations of striving. Thus this desire (chanda) and this concentration due to desire (chanda-samaadhi) and these volitional formations of striving (padhaana-sankhaara): this is called the basis for spiritual power that possesses concentration due to desire and volitional formations of striving (chanda samaadhippadhaana sankhaara samannaagato iddhipaado). [To repeat similar texts with the concentration due to energy (viiriya-samaadhi), the concentration due to mind (citta-samaadhi), and the concentration due to investigation (viimamsa-samaadhi).] The Notes on this sutta are also interesting. Spk illustrates these with the case of four royal ministers aspiring to high appointment. One who gains his position by waiting upon the king day and night, seeking to satisfy his wishes and preferences, is comparable to one who produces a supramundane state by emphasizing desire. One who gains the position by his valour, as in crushing a border rebellion, is like one who produces a supramundane state by emphasizing energy. One who gains the position by offering the king counsel in statecraft is like one who produces a supramundane state by emphasizing mind. And one who gains the position solely by reason of his birth (or class, jaati) is like one who produces a supramundane state by emphasizing investigation. ------------------------------ I also like the explanations given by Nina in her book, Conditionality of Life in the Buddhist Teachings. Here are some excerpts. Chanda, zeal or wish-to-do, which accompamies lobha-muula-citta can be a predominant factor in the accomplishment of one's undertakings, it conditions the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies by way of conascent-predominance. When we are generous and like to give something away, chanda, which is kusala in this case, may be predominant. There are also alobha, non-attachment, and adosa, non-aversion or kindness, but these wholesome roots cannot be predominant in the accomplishment of a generous deed. It is chanda which can be predominant in the accomplishment of the generous deed, for example, when one chooses the gift and hands it to someone else. Viriya can be a predominant factor in the accomplishment of our tasks. Preparing food may be part of our daily chores, and sometimes, when we like to do this, chanda may be predominant. At other times we may find it an effort but we may still want to cook. Then we may prepare food with viriya as predominant factor. At such moments there is likely to be lobha, but viriya is foremost in the accomplishment of cooking. Citta can be a predominance-condition for the accompanying cetasikas, but not all cittas can be predominance-condition. As we have seen, predominance-condition can operate only when there are javana-cittas accompanied by at least two roots. Seeing, for example, is an ahetuka citta (without roots), it can only perform the function of seeing and it cannot be predominance-condition. Moha-muula-citta, which has moha as its only root cannot be predominance-condition. Lobha-muula-citta and dosa-muula-citta have each two roots (respectively moha and lobha, and moha and dosa), they can be predominance-condition; then they have a dominating influence over the accompanying cetasikas in the fulfilling of a task or enterprise in the unwholesome way. With regard to investigation of the Dhamma, vimamsa, this is pa~n~naa cetasika. When we listen to the Dhamma, consider it and are mindful of realities, vimamsa can condition the accompanying citta and cetasikas by way of predominance-condition. ------------------------------ (3). Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya) to be continued. Metta, Han #84036 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:09 am Subject: Fwd: [dsg] Re: Understanding. ... Back to Square Zero .... nilovg Dear friends, Tep allows me to send this through. Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Van: "Tep Sastri" > Datum: 12 maart 2008 23:46:25 GMT+01:00 > Aan: "Nina van Gorkom" > Onderwerp: Antw.: [dsg] Re: Understanding. ... Back to Square > Zero .... > > > Dear Nina, - > > I was pleasantly surprised to see your email. I am thankful for the > kind and sincere words. > > >N: Look, we do not need to convince others, but the discussions > are useful for reflection for everybody who reads them. I sure > liked your discussions with Scott. It made good reading. > > T: Thank you, Nina. But I am not sure besides Scott and you (and > perhaps Sarah and Jon, occasionally) who else reads them. I cannot > deny that I used to have some "desire" to convince people that " I > " got the right thinking. But that desire wasn't there when I wrote > Scott the last few messages, trying to explain why pa~n~indriya > that investigates and truly understands the Truths (etc.) is the > right view of the ariya sacca, and it is not the pa~n~naa cetasika > in a puthujjana. This time I am quite convinced that my > understanding of pa~n~nindriya is right, according to the > Dhammasangani and Indriya-vibhanga Sutta. It is also verifiable by > Sabbasava Sutta (MN 2). > > >N: Lack of communication is not all that serious. We have that all > the time. > > T: Yes, I agree that it is not a big deal. But Scott's countless > number of "lacks of communication" was not the only reason why I > decided to leave the group, although his repeated stubbornness was > the straw that broke the camel's back. > > Perhaps you might not remember that I had quit DSG twice before > this one. Unlike the two previous quits, this time I am > unemotional. Since day one, I have felt that my understanding of > the Teachings is not compatible with the ideas that represent DSG. > Scott is just one of the members who represent this group. The > continuing incompatibility is the real reason why I am no longer > enthusiastic and want to leave, after arguing with the others for > five years. Five years is too long. > >N: Moreover we miss you, and I so much regret that you would not > continue Abhidhamma for beginners. > > T: I am sorry to hear that, dear Nina. But I am sure Scott can do > it better and more smoothly and compatibly with your interpretation > of the Abhidhamma too. There are several other members who can do > it as well. > > Please feel free to forward this reply to Jon & Sarah or Scott, if > you wish. > > I truly value your friendship, Nina. > > Warm regards, > > Tep > === > > On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 4:36 AM, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > Dear Tep, > just sending my letter, since I am not sure you read it. Sarah also > wrote a nice post to you. > ------------- > Dear Tep (and Jon), > Tep, I hope you stay, I join Jon. > Look, we do not need to convince others, but the discussions are > useful for reflection for everybody who reads them. I sure liked > your discussions with Scott. It made good reading. > Lack of communication is not all that serious. We have that all the > time. > Moreover we miss you, and I so much regret that you would not > continue Abhidhamma for beginners. I liked the idea of your frog > hopping. > below a remark to Jon. > Op 11-mrt-2008, om 15:17 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende > geschreven: > It sounds a bit like the development of insight itself -- always > back to > the beginning! > ------ > N: What a lovely reminder. Yes, it is always: begin again, begin > again. We think we have understood already, but oh no. > Nina. > > > > > > -- > May you be mindful in every moment. #84037 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 11-mrt-2008, om 23:05 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > N: Seeing is dependent on the ruupa that is its base, the > eyesense, as well as on the ruupa that is visible object. Ruupa is > weak at its arising moment and then it cannot function as base or > object. Base and object have arisen just before seeing arises. As you > know, rupa lasts longer than citta. > > --------- > > So citta cannot be simulteneous with Rupa or its 17 moments? Then > what is the citta seeing? ------ N: After visible object has arisen it still lasts when seeing arises, and then seeing sees it. ------- > > > > A: Can citta be aware of itself? > > ------ > > N: Citta cannot arise without having an object. > >>> > But if it can't arise without an object and if it can't > simulteneously have an object and be aware of it... ----- N: It can experience an object with awareness or without awareness. -------- > > A: It could not have in > > addition another object: itself. > > Another citta arising later on can have a previous citta as object. > > ------ > How can previously ceased, now not existent citta be an object? -------- N: Cittas arise and fall away so fast, and the citta that just fell away can be the object of a following citta. Its characteristic can appear. When you notice feeling at this moment, it means that that feeling has just fallen away. -------- > A: Furthermore even when this past citta is an object, is this an > object > of presently existing citta? In other words there are two citta, > a) presently existing citta > WITH > b) past citta (which is either non existant, existant, or only its > memory or an image is existing). ------- N: Remembrance or sa~n~naa arises with each citta and it marks or remembers the object. > When a citta with generosity arises and has as object a gift which > is a concept, it falls away again. Another citta arises in a > following process and takes the generosity for 'my generosity'. > This often happens. Then there is wrong remembrance of self, atta- > sa~n~naa. > -------- > > A: Furthermore how can't citta have itself as an object? ------- N: To continue with the previous example: then another process arises with citta accompanied by pa~n~naa that realizes the characteristic of wrong remembrance of self that just occurred. This could not happen at the revious moment when citta was accompanied by atta- sa~n~naa. Kusala and akusala are opposites, cannot occur together. -------- > a: Where does > (deluded) self awareness rise? A deluded person doesn't think that he > cognizes himself. HE FEELS THAT HE FEELS, HE SEES THAT HE SEES, etc > etc. ----- N: Here you are speaking in general terms, not in accordance with moments of citta. ------- > > A: 3) What happens in dreams? What sort of rupa arise? What is the > object on that occasion? How is dream rupa (form) different from > seeing existing form? ----- N: In dream concepts are experienced in mind-door processes. It seems that visible object is clearly seen, but in fact it is not seeing but remembering what one saw before. It seems like real life, but it is only thinking with remembrance of concepts. ***** Nina. #84038 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:35 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 5. Courage The objects of sati and paññå in the development of vipassanå are paramattha dhammas, not concepts. The paramattha dhammas that appear now are the objects of understanding. They are citta, cetasika and rúpa. Acharn Sujin said: “Dhamma is different from concepts. When we are thinking, what is true in the ultimate sense: the story we think of or the reality that is thinking? We can see the distinction between reality and concept. There is something that can be touched, do you have to give it a name?” Tangible object can be directly experienced through the bodysense and there is no need to name it. Hardness and softness are the characteristics of the Element of Earth or solidity; heat and cold are the characteristics of the Element of Fire or heat; motion or pressure are the characteristics of the Element of Wind or motion. These are rúpa elements, each with their own characteristic that cannot be changed, no matter how one names it. They are dhammas that are devoid of self. Acharn Sujin said: “Kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma and avyåkata dhamma (indeterminate dhamma, neither kusala nor akusala) have to be known now, not by thinking about them. Kusala dhamma is not akusala dhamma. Kusala dhamma has its own characteristic which cannot be changed into akusala dhamma. Both of them are citta and cetasika.” Citta, cetasika and rúpa are realities, not concepts. They are not abstract ideas, they occur now in our life. What is kusala dhamma is always kusala, that is its characteristic, it cannot be changed into akusala. This is a way to know what paramattha dhamma is: it has its own characteristic that cannot be changed into something else, no matter how we name it. There are many shades and varieties of kusala, depending on the accompanying cetasikas, but nevertheless kusala is kusala. Each kusala citta is accompanied by non-attachment and non-aversion, and it may be accompanied by paññå, understanding. The Abhidhamma teaches clearly that there cannot be any selfishness at the same time as kusala citta. There are different kinds of kusala: generosity consisting in giving useful things to others. But generosity is also appreciation of the kusala citta of others. At such a moment one has non-attachment, non-aversion, and one is without jealousy. At the moment of kusala citta there is peace, freedom from akusala. Wholesome conduct through body and speech, for example in helping others or paying respect to those who deserve it, is kusala síla. Mental development, comprising the study and explanation of the Dhamma, the development of samatha and vipassanå, is another form of kusala. We can learn the characteristic of kusala when it appears, we can learn that it is different from akusala dhamma. ****** Nina. #84039 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello! sarahprocter... Hi Tanya, (James, Walto, Howard & all), --- Tanyatip Chearavanont wrote: > As I've grown older, I began questions what religion > is, and why people are so dependant on it. My renewed > interest in Buddhism is not quite an interest as a > religion. Simply put, I think of buddhism as more of a > teaching and way of life. ... S: That's a good way to put it and one I used to use with my students:-). .... > Because I began questioning religion, I figured I > ought to learn more about it. (Hence the Buddhism > forum search) So basically, I would like to know > everyone's take on religion (Sorry, I know, thats > incredibly vague), what sets buddhism apart from other > religions, and based on that, why is it still > considered a religion. .... S: If we get back to the 'way of life' theme, I think it's helpful to question more about what life is now as we speak, what are the most important aspects of life and how should life be led. Do you have comments or ideas on these points? Such questions can bring us closer and closer to the present moment and to how there is really only seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking and other brief moments of experience of different objects. There are moments of joy and moments of sadness, moments of kindness and moments of unkindness. Which of these experiences is Tanya? Which is Sarah? Is there any lasting experience? Is there anything which remains pleasurable? I like to consider these questions and with the assistance of the Buddha's teachings, test out what the truth is now. So, for me, it's not a matter of belief in any religion but a matter of developing more understanding of what life really is. How does this sound to you? Perhaps other friends like James, Walto and anyone else will also add their comments. Metta, Sarah p.s Pls give Kane my congratulations!! Perhaps he'll look in here sometime too. ======== #84040 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:18 am Subject: What is Energy? bhikkhu0 Friends: What is the Energy (Viriya) Link to Awakening! The Energy Link to Awakening (Viriya-sambojjhanga) is basically the same mental property (viriya-cetasika), as that which performs any effort & which also is inherently included in the: The Energy Feet of Force (viriyiddhipÄ?da) The Ability of Energy (viriyindriya) The Power of Energy (viriyabala) The Right Effort Path Factor (sammÄ?-vÄ?yÄ?ma-magganga) Trained, developed and aroused so that it are capable of Enlightening! The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (Ä?sava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Energy Link to Awakening based on seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in relinquishment, then neither can any mental fermentation, nor any fever, or discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one who examines, finds out why, & comes to certain comprehension, in him his Energy Link to Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] The Ability of Energy is to initiate, launch into effort and to complete any undertaking using persistent endurance. When this ability becomes unshakable and unfailing, it then becomes the mighty Power of Energy! The function of energy is this four-fold right effort of: 1: Eradicating evil disadvantageous states that have arisen in the mind. 2: Preventing the arising of yet unarisen disadvantageous mental states. 3: Initiating and developing yet unarisen advantageous mental states. 4: Increasing, refining & completing already arisen advantageous states. The characteristic of energy is readiness, willingness, enthusiastic ease, eager and keen vigour. The manifestation of energy is action, exertion, endeavour, industry, struggle, powerful striving and accomplishment! Lazy: The one, who does not rise when it is time to rise. Who though young & strong, is weak in mind, soft in will, & lazy by nature, such slow one does never find the way to Nibbana. Dhammapada 280 Get up! Sit up! Of what use are your dreams? How can you sleep, when sick, stabbed by the arrow of craving... Sutta Nipata 331 Get up! Sit up! Push on your training, until reaching sole peace! Do not let the king of death see you sloppy and thus delude & dominate you like a toy doll... Sutta Nipata 332 Feeding the Energy: And what, friends, is feeding the Energy Link to Enlightenment, not yet arisen, & food too for boosting of any present Energy? 1: The element of mental initiative, 2: The element of launching into effort, 3: The element of enduring persistence. Systematic attention to these, is feeding any yet unarisen Energy Link to Awakening, & food too for boosting any present Energy. Samyutta Nikaya XLVI 51 Bojjhanga-samyutta Fivefold final Energy: Following the Buddha the energy in the disciple culminates, when he finally thinks: Let just this blood & flesh dry up & wither away so only skin, sinews & bones remain, I will not give up my quest and stray from this Noble 8-fold Path before having reached Enlightenment...!!! <...> Energy: The chief root Hero of all Success!!! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #84041 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:22 am Subject: Alara & Udakka Vs Gotama .. Components of Pa~n~naa in Ariyans and non truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thanks for the reply: > > A: "Can you comment on Pali MN26, where Buddha declared his panna to be > on the level of Alara Kalama's panna? (Same with Rama)?" > > Scott: No, not really. Can you make a point about this? I don't tend > to think in terms of persons with this or that level of anything, I'm > afraid. In this we differ. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > The text seemed to *Suggest* that Gotama at that time was at or slightly higher level than Alara Kalama or Udakka Ramaputta. After all, he DID study with them. Lots of Metta, Alex #84042 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:29 am Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. truth_aerator Hi Nina, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > -------- > N: Cittas arise and fall away so fast, and the citta that just fell away can be the object of a following citta. Its characteristic can appear. When you notice feeling at this moment, it means that that feeling has just fallen away. > -------- How can non existent thing be percievable? So are you saying that citta sees a sort of mental representation of past object (citta?)? > N: In dream concepts are experienced in mind-door processes. It seems that visible object is clearly seen, but in fact it is not seeing but remembering what one saw before. It seems like real life, but it is only thinking with remembrance of concepts. > ***** > Nina. > Often in dreams one dreams WHAT DIDN'T HAPPEN in reality. How is that explained? Furthermore, what is the cause of these images (rupas) & feelings to occur in the dreams? One may see cities, beings, events which can be too fantastic for ordinary reality , etc. Lots of Metta, Alex #84043 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Nina) - In a message dated 3/13/2008 10:31:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Nina, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > -------- > N: Cittas arise and fall away so fast, and the citta that just fell away can be the object of a following citta. Its characteristic can appear. When you notice feeling at this moment, it means that that feeling has just fallen away. > -------- How can non existent thing be percievable? =============================== IMO, it cannot. There was a Sarvastivadin heresy refuted by Moggaliputta Tissa to the effect that dhammas truly exist throughout the three times: past, present, and future. In particular, it allowed for the direct knowing (emphasis on "direct") of past dhammas. It seems to me that the notion that one can directly know, and not just by recollection, a dhamma that already ceased is quite close to the Sarvastivadin view, but is even more odd. With metta, Howard #84044 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (20) nilovg Dear Han, I read your post on chanting with great interest and I am very impressed. A beautiful tradition. Nina. Op 12-mrt-2008, om 22:50 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > The complete version of Patthaana, in five big volumes > in Pali, are chanted by the monks only. They chant > non-stop, in shifts, and it takes them about four or > five days to finish one time from beginning to end. #84045 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. kenhowardau Hi Alex (Howard and all), Butting in, if I may: -------- Nina: > > Cittas arise and fall away so fast, and the citta that just fell away can be the object of a following citta. Its characteristic can appear. When you notice feeling at this moment, it means that that feeling has just fallen away. > > Alex: > How can non existent thing be percievable? -------- Before you can know that you need to know how an existent thing can be perceivable. When you know how an existent thing can be perceivable you will also know how a just-fallen-away thing can be perceivable. Not only that, you will also know how, in the mind of an omniscient Buddha, all things can be perceivable. So what's your answer, Alex (Howard, anyone)? Starting with the easiest one, how can a presently existing visible object be seen? Does it physically collide with an eye-rupa? If so, what happens then? Does a bit of visible object rub off onto the eye-rupa and . . . . ? You tell me your answer and I'll tell you mine. :-) Ken H #84046 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. truth_aerator Dear Ken, > Ken, are you suggesting that we percieve MENTAL representation of an object rather then the object (rupa) itself? Thank you, lots of Metta, Alex #84047 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > Ken, are you suggesting that we percieve MENTAL representation of an > object rather then the object (rupa) itself? > > Thank you, > > Hi Alex, I'm not falling for that one! :-) The rules are that you tell me your answer and then I tell you mine. So, how can a presently existent visible object be seen? What's the mechanism? How is it more possible than the seeing of a non-existent object, or a just-fallen-away object, or an object that will exist in the future, etc., etc? Ken H #84048 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. truth_aerator Dear Ken, We percieve the MEMORY of the past object, object which no longer exists in the present? Lots of Metta, Alex #84049 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:23 pm Subject: Re: Alara & Udakka Vs Gotama .. Components of Pa~n~naa in Ariyans and non scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "The text seemed to *Suggest* that Gotama at that time was at or slightly higher level than Alara Kalama or Udakka Ramaputta. After all, he DID study with them." Scott: What inference do you draw from this suggestion? Sincerely, Scott. #84050 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > We percieve the MEMORY of the past object, object which no longer > exists in the present? Hi Alex, I will try once more to get you to answer the question. If you still don't want to that's OK, I'll just go ahead with my answer. You expressed surprise (or disbelief) that a mind-door-citta could experience an object that had just fallen away. So I am asking you; how does citta experience an object has *not* yet fallen away (an object that is present)? In a sense-door citta process, the object (a rupa) is physically present for all 17 cittas to directly experience. I know they do it, but *how* do they do it? And is the way they do it any less remarkable, or hard to believe, than the way they are said to experience an object that is *not* still present (that has just fallen away)? Ken H #84051 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:56 pm Subject: Re: Understanding. ... Back to Ground Zero .... buddhatrue Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > I am NOT KS follower, but I believe that preliminary Panna IS present > in at least SOME worldlings. Okay, fine. I don't believe so. The only thing present in worldlings is correct thinking, which some call "wisdom" but isn't wisdom. Wisdom rids the mind of defilements and so one who possesses wisdom will never again fall into states of woe. Those worldlings who just have correct thinking can and will fall into states of woe. Metta, James Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (322) #84052 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello! buddhatrue Hi Tanya and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > So, for me, it's not a matter of belief in any religion but a matter of > developing more understanding of what life really is. > > How does this sound to you? > > Perhaps other friends like James, Walto and anyone else will also add > their comments. James: I don't really have much more to add. I consider Buddhism a religion because it is "a way of life". Buddhism requires faith in the Triple Gem- the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. Though I have not personally achieved enlightenment, I have faith that the Buddha did, that he taught the path for others to achieve enlightenment, and that the Sangha is a community of monks/nuns who have achieved enlightenment or are working toward this goal. If you have doubts about any of this, you are not a Buddhist. Metta, James #84053 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:30 pm Subject: Re: Alara & Udakka Vs Gotama .. Components of Pa~n~naa in Ariyans and non truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "The text seemed to *Suggest* that Gotama at that time was at or > slightly higher level than Alara Kalama or Udakka Ramaputta. After all, > he DID study with them." > > Scott: What inference do you draw from this suggestion? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > That Buddha's teaching, Dhamma, is immeadetely effective - not involved with [lots of time] time (although it does take people with duller faculties or very poor Kamma - longer to freedom). Lots of Metta, Alex #84054 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:43 pm Subject: Re: Understanding. ... Back to Ground Zero .... truth_aerator Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" > wrote: > > > > I am NOT KS follower, but I believe that preliminary Panna IS > present > > in at least SOME worldlings. > > Okay, fine. I don't believe so. The only thing present in worldlings > is correct thinking, which some call "wisdom" but isn't wisdom. > Wisdom rids the mind of defilements and so one who possesses wisdom > will never again fall into states of woe. Those worldlings who just > have correct thinking can and will fall into states of woe. > > Metta, > James > True, correct thinking is just correct thinking. Wisdom = wisdom. Samma Ditthi can be of two sorts though, MN117 , and seed of that which is going to become a supramandane panna is present in certain sort of people. But you know, I don't want to argue these things. Lots of Metta, Alex #84055 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:01 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (106) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - We will now take up Chapter 3 The Perfection of Renunciation. The Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct” defines the perfection of renunciation as follows: “Renunciation (nekkhamma) has the characteristic of departing from sense pleasures and existence; its function is to verify the unsatisfactoriness they involve; its manifestation is the withdrawal from them; a sense of spiritual urgency (samvega) is its proximate cause.” The perfection of renunciation is the giving up of pleasure, clinging, and the ways of wrong thinking that are: sensuous thinking (kaama vitakka), thinking of hate (vyaapaada vitakka) and thinking of cruelty (vihimsaa vitakka). These unwholesome ways of thinking can be given up by becoming a monk or by the development of satipa.t.thaana. When someone gives up thoughts of sense pleasures, of hate and of harming others, he is developing the perfection of renunciation. Generally people believe that one can practise renunciation only by becoming a monk, but in order to understand the real meaning of renunciation we have to consider the different types of citta that are thinking, be they kusala or akusala. We usually think in our daily life in an unwholesome way of the sense objects: of visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object, thus, there is sensuous thinking, kaama vitakka. Can we avoid thinking of sense objects with pleasure, infatuation and clinging? The opposite of sensuous thinking is thinking of renunciation (nekkhamma vitakka). Renunciation, departing from sense pleasures, is practised not only by entering the state of monk hood, which is a superior state, but it can also be practised by laypeople in daily life. Did we ever consider to abandon sense pleasures? Are we becoming disenchanted with sense objects? We have attachment to visible object, sound and the other sense objects; we do not have to give them up, but do we want more of them? If we have not yet enough of them we give in to sensuous thinking, whereas if we find that we have quite sufficient of them, we have thoughts of renunciation. To be continued. Metta, Han #84056 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:07 pm Subject: Re: Alara & Udakka Vs Gotama .. Components of Pa~n~naa in Ariyans and non scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "That Buddha's teaching, Dhamma, is immeadetely effective - not involved with [lots of time] time (although it does take people with duller faculties or very poor Kamma - longer to freedom)." Scott: Thanks. Sincerely, Scott. #84057 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 6 senses x3 feelings & AP interesting statement of neutral feeling of 4 senses. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, You were objecting to the comment that only neurtral feeling arises with seeing consciousness and only pleasant or unpleasant feeling arises with body-consciousness as I recall. I'm enjoying all your Abhidhamma questions in various threads. --- Alex wrote: > S: This last sentence should have read:"The vedana which accompanies > > body-consciousness can be pleasant or unpleasant feeling only." > > ... > >>>> > >A: "And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the > eye, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: With > that, too, he grows disenchanted. " repeated for the other 5 senses > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.028.than.html .... S: For others, this is from 35:28 'Burning'. Bodhi translation is: "Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what, bhikkhus, is the all that is burning? The eye is burning, forms...eye-cosnciousness....eye-contact is burning, and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant - that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust....hatred....delusion.........." .... > In my opinion, retranslating above "eye feels" only neutral and the > mind is that which perceives pleasure/pain is a bit forced. .... S: Again I'd like to stress that eye-consciousness only experiences visible object. It is vedana (feeling) which feels. At the moment of eye-consciousness, the accompanying vedana can only be neutral feeling. However, the eye-consciousness which experiences visible object is a condition for pleasant, unpleasant and neutral feelings, along with attachment, aversion and ignorance on account of it. This is why eye-consciousness is always stressed first - it is a condition for so much kilesa in a day. Without seeing, there'd be no thinking about what's seen either. So to be precise, the moment of eye-consciousness is accompanied by neutral feeling. However the javana cittas in that same sense-door process and the subsequent mind-door processes, can be accompanied by any of the 3 kinds of feeling. So there's no contradiction. .... > Furthermore if we DO accept that it is the MIND FEELING ONLY, which > feels pain or pleasure (as opposed to the sense > feeling/consciousness) ... S: That isn't what the AP or I say. What I've stressed is that the feeling at the moment of seeing is neutral. It is one of (up to)17 cittas in the sense-door process. .... >- then we have to admit that for example > sour/sweet tastes are NOT inherently existing things - they are > produced by the mind. .... S: No, this is not correct. Cittas accompanied by neutral feeling can experience inherently desirable or undesirable objects, but the 'impact' is not as strong as it is in the case of body-consciousness. As I mentioned, there are many different sense and mind-door processes following each other in succession. The actual moment of taste experience is accompanied by neutral feeling, but there can still be attachment or aversion (with pleasant or unpleasant feeling) following even in that same sense door process. There are likely to also be body-door experiences in betweent the tasting and mind-door experiences too, with pleasant/unpleasant feelings again. As you're learning, the AP is very deep and subtle. With more understanding of the complexity of conditions and what is taught, the less we'll find any discrepancies with the suttas. .... >Which means that they could be percieved in > opposite ways if there could be control the mind... .... S: Let me re-phrase this for you: "Subsequent to any sense-door experiences (whether they be of desirable or undesirable objects), there can be wise attention and the arising of wholesome states with awareness and understanding if there are the right conditions for such." ... > > Or very painful sound of a chainsaw could be reinterpreted by the > mind as pleasure rather than pain.... .... S: Yes, there may be painful feeling accompanying body-consciousness which later acts as a condition for attachment. This depends on accumulations and the way sanna has marked such experiences in the past. .... > > Or that unpleasant smell of the rotting flesh or pleasant fragrance > of a rose is not inherently existing "thing" but is again produced by > the mind. Which means that they could be percieved in opposite ways > if there could be control the mind... ... S: You're touching on deep topics here. It depends on past kamma at any moment whether inherently pleasant or unpleasant objects are experienced through the senses. It then depends on accumulations and wise/unwise attention as to how they are subsequently perceived. Let me know if this is not clear. Metta, Sarah In 'U.P' there is a whole section on this topic under: 'Rupa12- intrinsic/specific qualities - desirable/undesirable' =================== #84058 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] AN 10.60 Girimananda Sutta To Girimananda sarahprocter... Dear Scott, I had meant to just thank you for all your further helpful comments in our discussion (#83699). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > This 'being concealed by compactness' is, to my mind, a description of > the everyday ordinary experience of the world. In other words, the > assumption that wholes are the objects of the six senses is a function > of a mental process that is devoid of pa~n~naa. And I think that this > must be a function of mind-door process, but am not at all sure of that. ... S: As Nina pointed out, I think, there can be ditthi (wrong understanding) even in a sense-door process, arising with the javana cittas. But you're right, that most of the taking for 'wholes' and the endless proliferating occurs for the most part in the mind-door processes. .... > With the arising of visible object, for example, and the confluence of > visible object with visible object-base and eye-consciousness, there > is not yet such a concealment by compactness; this comes later, > assisted or supported by the characteristics of sa~n~naa. Or so it > seems to me, theoretically. .... S: Yes. As I just wrote to Alex, the experience of visible object is a condition for such, due to accumulations of ignorance and so on. Sa~n~naa plays a very important role as you go on to stress. Thanks again for the quotes and helpful comments. Metta, Sarah ======= #84059 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:03 pm Subject: Insignificant (paritta.m) dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Han, Alex & all, Some of our useful discussions have helped me to consider more about 'insignificant dhammas'. I was reflecting on this topic when Scott posted the list of descriptions on rupas in the Dhammasangani corner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/82943 One of the descriptions of ruupa given from the Dhammasangani was: "of small account (paritta.m)" I came across the same term the other day in "Survey" by A.Sujin, translated by Nina: In Chapter 17, Planes of Existence, it says: "Kaamaavacara citta that is attached to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object clings firmly to them, even though they appear just for a moment. Visible object appears for an extremely short moment, when it impinges on the eye sense. Sound appears just for an extremely short moment, when it impinges on the ear sense. It is the same with odour, flavour and tangible object. All of them are insignificant dhammas (paritta dhammas), they appear just for a moment and then they fall away. Nevertheless, citta is attached and clings all the time to these insignificant dhammas. Since these dhammas that arise and fall away are succeeding one another it seems that they can last, that they do not fall away. "There is no end to clinging to all the sense objects, to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. We are infatuated with them and keep on clinging to them. These objects fall away, but they are replaced; the ruupas that fall away are succeeded by new ones. We are deluded and cling again to visible object, sound and the other sense objects that replace those which have fallen away and thus clinging continues all the time. When we see visible object and we like it, we want to see it again and again. When we hear a sound that we like we want to hear it again, and it is the same with odour, flavour and tangible object that we like. When we are eating and we like a particular flavour, we wish to eat the same food again and taste that flavour again. Clinging to the sense objects arises each day, time and again. It is our nature to cling through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body sense and the mind-door." **** Nina has also given helpful summaries of our discussions with A.Sujin on recent trips in India which I apreciate every time I hear or read them: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/83495 "Seeing sees a desirable object or an undesirable object depending on the kamma that produces seeing. Seeing is vipaakacitta, the result of kamma. It does not matter whether visible object is desirable or undesirable, seeing falls away immediately. Seeing just sees and it does not know whether visible object is desirable or undesirable. It is of no use to find out whether the object is desirable or undesirable. We can learn that seeing is only a type of naama and that it experiences visible object which is ruupa. When we understand that seeing is only a type of naama, we begin to know the meaning of non- self. Seeing arises because kamma produces it, we cannot cause its arising or be the owner of it. It is only naama, not “my seeing”. Seeing sees only visible object, not a person or a thing. Sati can be aware only of one naama or ruupa at a time, but so long as we do not distinguish naama from ruupa we are bound to take all realities for self." **** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/81202 "I said to Acharn Sujin that I cling to people who are dear to me, that I cling to the idea of a person. She said: is seeing Nina, is hearing Nina? The answer is no, these cittas arise and fall away immediately. Whatever appears does so because of its own conditions, and this can help us to have a certain degree of detachment, although it is mostly on the level of intellectual understanding. The purpose of the teachings is not to stop thinking, clinging to persons or worrying about them, but to understand such moments as dhammas arising because of their own conditions. We cling to insignificant dhammas that do not last, not even a split second. ......When there is awareness and right understanding we are not troubled by any situation." ***** Metta, Sarah ========= #84060 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Byaadhi (sickness) sarahprocter... Dear Han, (Alex* & all), I'm so glad you're making such a good recovery. Apologies for a slow response on this thread. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Sarah: As I understand, byaadhi is a concept used > for convenience to represent a number of dhammas which > are dukkha. In the ultimate sense, rupas (including > those experienced through the body-sense) are dukkha, > feelings (including painful bodily feeling) are > dukkha, perceptions (including perceptions/ memories > of such rupas and > feelings) are dukkha, mental formations (the other 50 > mental factors) are dukkha and consciousnessess > (including bodily experience) are dukkha. ... > Han: Let us go back to Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. > > Idam kho pana bhikkhave dukkham ariya saccam: > Jaatipi dukkhaa > Jaraapi dukkhaa > Byaadhipi dukkho > Maranampi dukkham > Appiyehi sampayogo dukkho > Piyehi vippayogo dukkho > Yam piccham na labhati tampi dukkham > Sankhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa. > > You said byaadhi is a concept used for convenience to > represent a number of dhammas which are dukkha. Is > jaati, or jaraa, or marana also concepts used for > convenience to represent a number of dhammas which are > dukkha? ... S: Certainly the way we refer to byaadhi or sickness is a concept. The only dhammas in an absolute sense are cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana, as you know well know. As for whether jaati and so on are concepts representing concepts or realities, it depends on our understanding, I think. In the Sammohavinodani, under 'Classification of the Truths', there is a very detailed section on each of these, containing many subtle points. [*This may be of interest to Alex who asked what more is said about the 'Truths' and 'D.O.' in the AP.] For example, on the first, 'jaati', it says: "Tattha katamaa jaati? Yaa tesa.m tesa.m sattaana.m tamhi tamhi sattanikaaye jaati sa~njaati"("Here, which is birth? That which in the various orders of beings is the birth of such and such beings, their coming to birth"). Question for you: In the sentence above, are birth and beings concepts or realities? The commentary says that "this is a general designation in brief for the many kinds of beings......a general designation for the many [different] orders by way of destiny and birth.......'sattanikaaye ('orders of beings')= sattaana.m nikaaye, "multitude of beings", "collection of beings" is the meaning. Further it goes into detail of the many meanings of jaati ('birth'). "Here, however, this is appropriate in respect of the aggregates of first production with their modes (vikaaresu, characteristics). Therefore jaati is by way of being born; here it is the peculiarity of their nature. Sa~njaati ('coming to birth') is by the act of coming to birth....Okkanti ('descent [in the womb]') is by descending.... "Now comes explanation in the highest sense. For in the highest sense it is the aggregates that become manifest, not beings.....Paatubhaavo ('manifestation') is arising. "Aya.m vuccati jaati ('this is called birth): it is this known as birth that is explained. But this has the characteristic of first reproduction here or there in existence; its nature is assigning; its manifestation is appearing here [in this existence] from a past existence; or its manifestation is the variedness of suffering by means of result. "Now "meaning of suffering in birth should be understood"...: for this birth is not itself suffering. But by being the basis for the arising of suffering it is called suffering." .... S: There's a lot more detail - concepts and realities. It all depends when we read, hear and consider what 'birth' and so on are whether we're reflecting on realities appearing now or concepts about many kinds of dhammas. **** >H: If so, no more questions on this point. > > In the ultimate sense the five aggregates are dukkha. > There is no question about this, because the Buddha > has said that > "sankhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa.' What I > am saying is before we reach that ultimate sense, is > byaadhi different from jaati or jaraa or marana in > denoting as dukkha? .... S: If we're just discussing birth, sickness, old age and death in a conventional, every-day sense, there's no difference. If we are discussing patisandhi cittas, cuti cittas or the arising, decay and ceasing of dhammas, then I'm not sure we can refer to the biyaadhi of dhammas, can we? **** > For > me, as long as I am a puthujjana, I will consider it > as my sickness, and it was I who was suffering on a > hospital bed a few days ago. .... S: And now it's all just a dream:-) Metta, Sarah ========= #84061 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:38 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (14) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Ven Pannabahulo & all, I find your series on the Pathaana to be very helpful. I hope you'll forgive me for being slow to add a few comments or questions. Firstly, on this one (#83483), I just wished to say that I thought it was excellent from beginning to end. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: <...> > The Buddha replied, "Ignorance, bhikkhu, is the one > thing through the abandoning of which, ignorance is > abandoned by a bhikkhu and true knowledge arises." > > [Han: Here the foot-note says that "though it may > sound redundant to say that ignorance must be > abandoned in order to abandon ignorance, this > statement underscores the fact that ignorance is the > most fundamental cause of bondage, which must be > eliminated to eliminate all the other bonds."] > > "But, venerable sir, how should a bhikkhu know (katham > jaanato), how should he see (katham passato), for > ignorance to be abandoned (avijjaa pahiiyati) by him > and true knowledge arises (vijjaa uppajjati)?" > > "Bhikkhu, when a bhikkhu knows and sees the eye [form, > eye-consciousness, eye-contact, feeling arising with > eye-contact] as impermanent, ignorance is abandoned by > him and true knowledge arises. [To repeat with other > five senses.] .... S: Ven P. was asking why A.Sujin always stresses on seeing and visible object and since then in the many suttas that have been quoted, we can see how the Buddha always begins with the same. It is on account of seeing and its object, on account of ignorance of them, that so many defilements arise in the day. Again, many thanks for all your work in this series. Metta, Sarah ========= #84062 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:43 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (16) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, On #83670, "Adosa" Another excellent set of quotes and comments. I like the way you set it out too. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > Towards the end of the sutta, the Buddha explained > that the sixth murderer, the intimate companion with > drawn sword, is a designation for delight and lust > (nandi raaga). Thus, selfish affection or nandi-raaga > is like an enemy who is near us all the time, and who > can kill us anytime like the intimate companion > murderer in SN 35.238, and yet we may not even be > aware of it as a near enemy. .... S: Yes, this is the intimate companion that is near us all the time, whether we're alone in the forest or in the crowded place. The real enemy.... Metta, Sarah ======== #84063 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:52 am Subject: My children now rjkjp1 A few friends in Thailand asked me how my children are these days: here is photo taken last week at Roxanne's 18th birthday. She and Meiling share an apartment and both are students at Auckland University. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/photos/view/2cfb? b=30 Some of you may have heard Roxanne speaking on an mp3 files at http://dhammastudygroup.org when she was 11 or 12. Alex will be coming to Bangkok, accompanying my mother, next month for Dhamma discussions during Nina Van Gorkom's 80th birthday period. Robert #84064 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:03 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) sarahprocter... Dear Han, On #83749, "Amoha". All good, but I question one quoted paragraph: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > Quote: [Manasikaara is the mind's first `confrontation > with an object' and `directs the associated mental > concomitants to the object.' It is, therefore, the > prominent factor in the two avajjana cittas, namely, > pa~ncadvaara-avajjana citta, and manodvaara-avajjana > citta, i.e., advertence at the five sense doors and > advertence at the mind door. These two states of > consciousness, breaking through the life-continuum > (bhavanga citta), form the first stage in the > cognition process. .... S: There are three meanings of manasikaara, as I understand. Above, he is just referring to the third one I give below: a) the cetasika, manasikaara (attention) which arises with every citta. This is referred to as aaramma.na manasikaara b) the pa~ncaadvaaraavajjana citta (five sense-door adverting- consciousness. Here it is the 'controller' of the sense-door process. This is referred to as aaramma.napa.tipaadaka manasikaara c) the manodvaaraavajjana citta (mind-door adverting consciousness) Here it is the 'controller' of following javana cittas. This is referred to as javanapa.tipaadaka manasikaara, no matter which doorway. **** S: I would say that this citta (manodvaaraavajjana) 'succeeds', rather than 'breaks through' the bhavanga cittas, but I understand what he means. ... > As the rudder of a ship directs her to her > destination, so manasikaara directs the citta and its > concomitants towards the sense object. Without > manasikaara, the mind is like a rudderless ship and it > cannot be aware of an object. In a more general sense, > manasikaara appears frequently in the suttas as > yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention or wise reflection) > and a-yoniso-manasikaara (unwise attention or unwise > reflection). Wise attention leads to moral > consciousness, whereas unwise attention leads to > immoral consciousness.] End Quote. ... S: I think that wise attention refers to the manodvaaravajjana citta and succeeding moral consciousness and vice versa. ... > Han: Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi made an interesting > distinction between manasikaara and vitakka. He wrote: > "manasikaara should be distinguished from vitakka: > while the former turns its concomitants towards the > object, the latter applies them onto the object. > Manasikaara is an indispensable cognitive factor > present in all states of consciousness; vitakka is a > specialized factor which is not indispensable to > cognition." .... S: Here, B.Bdohi is referring to manasikaara, the cetasika in (a) above (aaramma.na manasikaara). It is, as he says, a universal mental factor (sabbacitta-saadhaarana). Vitakka is not a universal cetasika, but is essential for almost all cittas to experience their objects. The only exceptions are with the dvi-pa~ncavi~n~naa.nas (seeing etc.), certain jhana and certain lokuttara cittas I believe. Metta, Sarah ===== #84065 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Insignificant (paritta.m) dhammas hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your post. But I have not been following Dhammasangani corner because I do not have the English translation of Dhammasangani, although I have Burmese translation and Pali in Burmese script. Anyway, I look at my books for parittaa dhammaas, and I found the following. 1026: katame dhammaa parittaa? Sabbeva kaamaavacaraa kusalaa akusalaa byaakataa dhammaa ruupakkhandho – pe – vi~n~naa.nakkhandho ime dhammaa parittaa. Han: It means kaamaavacara cittas (54), associated cetasikas, and all ruupas. -------------------- 1417: katame dhammaa parittaa? Kaamaavacara kusalam akusalam sabbo kaamaavacarassa vipaako kaamaavacara kiriyaabyaakatam sabba~nca ruupam ime dhammaa parittaa. Han: It means kaamaavacara kusala citta (8), akusala citta (12), kaamaavacara vipaaka citta (23), kaamaavacarakiriyaabyaakata citta (11), all ruupas, these are insignificant dhammas. -------------------- How do I connect the above passages that I found with what you have written about the insignificant dhammas? Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han, Alex & all, > Some of our useful discussions have helped me to > consider more about > 'insignificant dhammas'. #84066 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Byaadhi (sickness) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I thought I have closed this subject:>) In my message # 83304 to you, I had written: “Dear Sarah, I thank you very much for giving me your time to explain to me. But for me, I have decided. I will consider (whether it is mentioned in the books or not) that byaadhi is indeed a dukkha sacca. When I was on a hospital bed last month, with severe headache and aches and pain all over the body, and with non-stop hiccups, I could not think about jaraapi dukkhaa, I could not think about piyehi vippayogo dukkho (at other times I am very attached to my family members, but at that moment in the hospital I could not think about them either), I could not think about anything else except my severe headache, aches and pain all over the body, and the non-stop hiccups. If that is not suffering I do not know what is suffering. Furthermore, byaadhipi dukkho is included in dukkha saccaa in Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. So, I can only repeat what I have written to you in my message # 83304 quoted above. But I thank you very much for your concern about my health, and I respect your cetanaa for explaining all these things to me. Respectfully, Han --- sarahprocterabbott wrote: > Dear Han, (Alex* & all), > > I'm so glad you're making such a good recovery. > Apologies for a slow > response on this thread. > #84067 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your very useful comments on Patthaana (14), (16) and (17). I really appreciate it. Your explanation about manasikaara is new to me and I benefit greatly from your inputs. Respectfully, Han #84068 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (19) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Last one for this batch, I promise you!! This is back to #83869. I know you have since discussed a point with Nina, but I hope you won't mind my tagging along too... --- han tun wrote: > This is the continuation of (2). Object condition > (aaramma.na-paccaya). <...> > Although the books do not exactly say so, I consider > that it is a case where one condition conditions > another condition, i.e., object condition conditions > root condition. .... S: I think we can only say this indirectly. Object condition operates by being experienced by a citta (and cetasikas). Now, in the case of a citta rooted in one of the six roots, hetu paccaya is supporting this same citta, but I don't think we can say the object condition conditions the root condition. It is supporting the lobha-rooted citta just by being its object. Interesting point. .... <...> > In daily life, one has to be very careful with the > objects entering the five physical sense doors and the > mind door all the time. With ayoniso-manasikaara these > objects can easily lead to akusala cittas, and only > with yoniso-manasikaara and satipatthaana these > objects can lead to kusala cittas. Thus sense > restraint is very important in one’s daily life. .... S: Can I try re-phrasing this? (Well, I'm going to anyway!!) "In daily life, different objects are experienced through the five sense-doors and mind door all the time. It depends on ayoniso-manasikaara or yoniso-manisikaara as to whether akusala or kusala cittas follow. In the case of yoniso-manisikaara, there are various kinds of kusala cittas. All of these are accompanied by sati. At such moments there is sense-restraint, but not necessarily at the level of satipatthaana by any means." I'll look forward to any comments on this (or re-phrasing of it!), Han:-) .... <...> > Having said that I wish to deal with the conditioning > states of the Object condition. Please read the first > verse of the Object condition (which I had mentioned > in my last post). > > (1) Ruupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa > tamsampayuttakaana~nca dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena > paccayo. > Visible object-base is related to eye-consciousness > element and its associated states by object condition. > > From this verse, it appears that ruupaayatana (matter) > conditions cakkhuvi~n~naa.na (mind), i.e. only Matter > for Mind. ... S: Yes, this is correct in the case of the sense-door cittas. .... >But from the Groupings, the Object condition > belongs to Group E. Mind-and-Matter for Mind. ... S: Yes, this doesn't mean that namas can be experienced as object by all cittas, however. .... >However, > the first Pali verse up to the sixth Pali verse of > Object condition (that I had written in my last post), > denote only Matter for Mind. So to me there is a > discrepancy and the verses do not adequately portray > the complete picture of the Object condition. .... S: I think it's all very clear. For example, extracting from your last message, for no 5 and no 6, you quoted: >5) Pho.t.thabbaayatanam kaayavi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaana~nca dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. Tangible object-base is related to body-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. ... S: (This was the same for the first four), only rupa is experienced as object by the sense-door consciousness, in this case body-consciousness. ... (6) Ruupaayatanam saddaayatanam gandhaayatanam rasaayatanam pho.t.thabbaayatanam manodhaatuyaa [1] tamsampayuttakaana~nca dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. Visible object-base, sound-base, odour-base, taste-base and tangible object-base are related to mind-element and its associated states by object condition. ... S: Here it is just referring to these rupas. .... (7) Sabbe dhammaa manovi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa [2] tamsampayuttakaana~nca dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. All states are related to mind-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. .... S: Mind consciousnes element includes cittas which experience namas and rupas through 6 doorways, so all dhammas are included. ... (8) Yam yam dhammam aarabbha ye ye dhammaa uppajjanti cittacetasikaa dhammaa te te dhammaa tesam tesam dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. Taking any states as object, these states, consciousness and mental factors, arise; those (former) states are related to those (latter) states by object condition. .... S: I think this is very clear. Cittas and cetasikas are related to those 'states' (i.e cittas, cetasikas, rupas, nibbana or concepts) by way of any of the latter being an object. **** S: I know you already clarified this to your satisfaction, so no need to reply. I just wished to go through it for myself. Metta, Sarah p.s I apologise for responding to threads that you have in mind as 'dead'. I'm sure it must be annoying. For me, no threads here are ever finished and I'm always slow on the up-take:-)). =========== #84069 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:52 am Subject: Patthaana (22) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of (3). Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya) The Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya) has two components: (1) the conascence predominance (sahajaataadhipati), and (2) the object predominance (aaramma.naadhipati). In my last post, I have written some considerations about the conascence predominance (sahajaataadhipati). Today, I will quote some examples taken from the book by Ashin Janakaabhivamsa. “Predominant desire or Chandaadhipati” Sayadaw Ashin Janakaabhivamsa cited the example of ascetic Sumedha in explaining the meaning of predominant desire or chandaadhipati. Sayadaw said, on seeing the Buddha Dipankara, Sumedha thought: "If I wish, I can even today become an Arahat. Yet it is not appropriate for me to leave others wandering in samsara (cycle of rebirths). To save all beings, I will try to become a Buddha like the Buddha Dipankara.” So he immediately decided with firm resolution to become a Buddha. That firm resolution, Sayadaw, said, was the predominant desire or “chandaadhipati.” Moved by this predominant desire, our Bodhisatta had endured sufferings for countless numbers of lives to become a Buddha, and his desire never waned during all these aeons of time. That unwavering desire was in fact the predominant desire or chandaadhipati. I would also like to add another example of predominant desire or chandaadhipati, by quoting a passage from The Splendour of Enlightenment: a Life of the Buddha, compiled by Phra Khantipalo. Quote: [The Bodhisatta with his back to the trunk of the Bodhi tree sat facing the East making the firm resolve: “Let only my skin, sinews and bones remain and let the flesh and blood in my body dry up: but not until I attain Supreme Enlightenment will I give up this meditation seat” sat down cross-legged on his invincible seat whence he could not be dislodged even if thunderbolts were hurled at him in their hundreds.] End Quote. I would say that this firm resolve is the predominant desire or chandaadhipati. -------------------- “Predominant effort or Viiriyaadhipati” Sayadaw Ashin Janakaabhivamsa cited the story of Mahaajanaka (jaataka no. 539) to illustrate the energy or viiriya as a predominant factor. In the story, Mahaajanaka was sailing with about seven hundred merchants. They met with the storm and rough seas and the ship foundered in the middle of the ocean. All the passengers feared death; they cried and wailed, and invoked the gods for help. But Mahaajanaka did not do any such thing. Instead, he mixed sugar with butter and had his fill of this mixture. Then he soaked two pieces of plain cloth in oil and wound them tightly around his body. He climbed up to the top of the mast as the ship was sinking, and jumped off the mast, exerting his great strength to clear the school of fish and sharks, to a distance of one usabha (70 meters). He then swam and swam for seven days non-stop. At that time, a goddess named Mani Mekhala was entrusted to look after all virtuous people who should not die at sea. Mani Mekhala had not inspected the seas for seven days, lost in the pleasures of the devas’ world. When she inspected, she saw Mahaajanaka and went to hover not far from him. To test Mahaajanaka, she asked: “Who's that even though the coast is nowhere to be seen, is still swimming in the midst of the ocean waves? What mighty use do you see in striving to swim in this manner?” Looking up, he saw Mani Mekhala, and replied that even though he did not see the land, he knew the merits of perseverance and he would continue striving. Mani Mekhala, desiring to test him further, said that his heroic efforts would be of no avail; he would be dead before he reached the shores. He replied that any individual who believed in perseverance, and put up great effort even in the face death, would not be in any debt to relatives or gods or father or mother. Furthermore, he said, any individual must do his duty to the best of his ability with perseverance, no matter what. He even asked Mani Mekhala to go away and not waste his time. Satisfied with his strong determination and his unwavering belief in perseverance, she picked up Mahaajanaka and took him to Mithila Nagara and put him on a Propitious Stone slab in the Mango Grove. She delegated the duties of guarding Mahaajanaka to local spirits of the Grove and she left for her own abode. The conascence predominance (sahajaataadhipati) to be continued. Metta, Han #84070 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My children now sarahprocter... Hi Robert, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > A few friends in Thailand asked me how my children are these days: here > is photo taken last week at Roxanne's 18th birthday. She and Meiling > share > an apartment and both are students at Auckland University. ... S: Nice pic! Pls send our best wishes to 'grown-up' Roxanne. If anyone else has 'significant others' they'd like to put in the 'significant others' photo album, pls do! Metta, Sarah ======= #84071 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. nilovg Hi Alex (Howard), Op 13-mrt-2008, om 15:29 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > N: Cittas arise and fall away so fast, and the citta that just fell > away can be the object of a following citta. Its characteristic can > appear. When you notice feeling at this moment, it means that that > feeling has just fallen away. > > -------- > > How can non existent thing be percievable? > > So are you saying that citta sees a sort of mental representation of > past object (citta?)? --------- N: It is not non-existent, it is still present object. Let me first say something about the present. Visuddhimagga Ch XIII, 111: Round of continuity refers to the processes of citta. As to by extent, it is explained that this is what is delimited by a single becoming. See also Ven. Nyanaponika, Abhidhamma Studies, the present, p. 118, 119. ----- Vis. XIV, 188, Tiika: Tiika: But that temperature which falls on the body, whether hot or cold, and occurs as a continuity in one mode, being neither less nor more, is called "single temperature". The word "single" is used because of the plurality of "like" temperature. -------- N: Temperature that arises and appears as heat or cold impinges on the bodysense. In fact there is a continuity of several units of temperature, but the Tiika explains that they are taken together (eak- ggaha.na.m) as a serial presence, occurring as a continuity in one mode (ekaakaara.m). -------- Tiika: So too with nutriment. ------ N: It is the same in the case of nutrition that produces groups of ruupa in continuity. It produces heat that can be experienced through the bodysense. Tiika: The explanations of 'continuity' and 'period' (samaya) are given in the Commentaries for the purpose of helping the practice of insight'. (Pm.496). ----------- N: The serial presence is reckoned as the present object for insight. The characteristic of ruupa such as heat or hardness appears and can be object of insight so that it is realized as a conditioned dhamma, not a person or self, not mine. --------- Seeing-consciousness is a rootless citta, no sati. It experiences visible object. After it has fallen away sati can arise (in a following process) and be aware of it. True, it has fallen away, but it arises again and again and in between sati can arise. Then hearing may appear. Its characteristic is different from seeing, and it can be experienced with sati, without having to think about it. Read the satipatthanasutta: Mindfulness of citta: the citta with raaga or lust, with dosa, with moha. These cittas have just fallen away but they are still objects of the present moment. Here is no question of a mere recollection of yesterday's lobha etc. It is sati that is directly aware. Awareness which is kusala, cannot arise in the same process of cittas as lobha. It must be in a following process. If one thinks that this is not possible, how could the eightfold Path ever be developed? There is no counting of cittas, no speculation about processes. When one is doing this, one makes sati too difficult. Sati can arise naturally, no speculation. --------- > > N: In dream concepts are experienced in mind-door processes. It > seems that visible object is clearly seen, but in fact it is not > seeing but remembering what one saw before. It seems like real life, > but it is only thinking with remembrance of concepts. > > > A:Often in dreams one dreams WHAT DIDN'T HAPPEN in reality. How is > that > explained? Furthermore, what is the cause of these images (rupas) & > feelings to occur in the dreams? One may see cities, beings, events > which can be too fantastic for ordinary reality , etc. ------ N: You are quite right. Cittas arising in mind-door processes combine concepts on account of remembrance of experiences in real life and construct phantasies about these experiences. Nina. #84072 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My children now nilovg Dear Robert K, whta a nice photo. Looking forward to meeting Alex, who showed such a lot of interest when he was small, Nina. Op 14-mrt-2008, om 8:52 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > here > is photo taken last week at Roxanne's 18th birthday. She and > Meiling share > an apartment and both are students at Auckland University. #84073 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (19) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind comments. > > Han: Although the books do not exactly say so, I consider that it is a case where one condition conditions another condition, i.e., object condition conditions root condition. > Sarah: I think we can only say this indirectly. Object condition operates by being experienced by a citta (and cetasikas). Now, in the case of a citta rooted in one of the six roots, hetu paccaya is supporting this same citta, but I don't think we can say the object condition conditions the root condition. It is supporting the lobha-rooted citta just by being its object. Interesting point. Han: Without the corresponding objects can the six roots arise by themselves? You can say “supporting” or “conditioning” or whatever, but the objects are necessary for the six roots to arise, I think. ------------------------------ > > Han: In daily life, one has to be very careful with the objects entering the five physical sense doors and the mind door all the time. With ayoniso-manasikaara these objects can easily lead to akusala cittas, and only with yoniso-manasikaara and satipatthaana these objects can lead to kusala cittas. Thus sense restraint is very important in one’s daily life. > Sarah: Can I try re-phrasing this? (Well, I'm going to anyway!!) "In daily life, different objects are experienced through the five sense-doors and mind door all the time. It depends on ayoniso-manasikaara or yoniso-manisikaara as to whether akusala or kusala cittas follow. In the case of yoniso-manisikaara, there are various kinds of kusala cittas. All of these are accompanied by sati. At such moments there is sense-restraint, but not necessarily at the level of satipatthaana by any means." I'll look forward to any comments on this (or re-phrasing of it!), Han:-) Han: Your re-phrasing is better! ------------------------------ > >But from the Groupings, the Object condition belongs to Group E. Mind-and-Matter for Mind. > Sarah: Yes, this doesn't mean that namas can be experienced as object by all cittas, however. Han: Since you do not do meditation, you may not know. In meditation, we are asked to take note of the wandering mind (naama) with noting mind (naama). Here, the wandering mind is the object for the noting mind. (Please do not ask me how can this be done? I won’t be able to explain satisfactorily:>)) ------------------------------ As regards my remarks that Pali verse no. 1 to Pali verse no. 6 do not portray the complete picture of Object condition, I am very glad that Nina had refuted my reasoning. Honestly, I was wishing that I was wrong. These verses are being chanted with deepest reverence in Burma years and years before I was born. ------------------------------ > Sarah: p.s I apologise for responding to threads that you have in mind as 'dead'. I'm sure it must be annoying. For me, no threads here are ever finished and I'm always slow on the up-take:-)). Han: No apologies needed, Sarah. I was only afraid that I would not be able to change my stubborn (stupid?) conviction. Respectfully, Han #84074 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN 10.60 Girimananda Sutta To Girimananda scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply: S: "As Nina pointed out, I think, there can be ditthi (wrong understanding) even in a sense-door process, arising with the javana cittas. But you're right, that most of the taking for 'wholes' and the endless proliferating occurs for the most part in the mind-door processes." Scott: So just after seeing consciousness (vipaaka), for example, with the javana series, di.t.ti can also arise. Kamically advantageous or disadvantageous consciousness comes in early in the process. Cetanaa and sa~n~naa both arise with these initial javana cittas. I have more to learn, as I keep saying, about the function of the javana process. Sincerely, Scott. #84075 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:19 am Subject: Floated by Joy :-) ! bhikkhu0 Friends: What is the Joy (Pîti) Link to Awakening? The Joy Link to Awakening (PÄ«ti-sambojjhanga) has the characteristic of suffusing contentment, and the property of gladdening satisfaction. This Joy Link to Awakening manifests as mental elation, which can reach five successively increasing degrees of intensity: 1: Minor Joy, which can raise the hair on the body when thrilled. 2: Momentary Joy, which is flashing like lightning at various occasions. 3: Showering Joy, which breaks over the body repeatedly like sea-waves. 4: Uplifting Joy, which can be strong enough to even levitate the body. 5: Pervading Joy, which is like a heavy sponge all saturated with water. Visuddhimagga IV 94-9 The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (Ä?sava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Joy Link to Awakening based on seclusion, on disillusion, on ceasing, & culminating in relinquishment, then neither can any mental fermentation, nor any fever, or discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one who has aroused enthusiastic energy, there arises a joy not of this world & the Joy Link to Awakening emerges there. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] Any one convinced by understanding of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, gets an enthusiastic sense of the sublime good goal of NibbÄ?na & gains gladness connected, joined, and fused with this Dhamma...! In any one gladdened, Joy is born. The body of the Joyous is calmed. One of calm body experiences pleasure and happiness! The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. The concentrated mind sees and knows things as they really are. This brings disgust and disillusion, which enables full direct experience of mental release. It is in this way that Joy indeed is a factor leading to Awakening! MN [i 37-8], AN [iii 21-3], DN [iii 21-3] <...> Floated by Joy :-) ! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #84076 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Alex )- In a message dated 3/14/2008 6:17:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Alex (Howard), Op 13-mrt-2008, om 15:29 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > N: Cittas arise and fall away so fast, and the citta that just fell > away can be the object of a following citta. Its characteristic can > appear. When you notice feeling at this moment, it means that that > feeling has just fallen away. > > -------- > > How can non existent thing be percievable? > > So are you saying that citta sees a sort of mental representation of > past object (citta?)? --------- N: It is not non-existent, it is still present object. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, I do not know what that means for it to be "still present object" while having "fallen away." What does not exist cannot be known except by recollection. If it does not exist, it DOES NOT EXIST. One can't have it both ways. I do not doubt that what WAS experienced served as condition right then and there for future recollection, and that recollection following immediately after actually experiencing of the object is extremely vivid, almost duplicating the original perception, but, nonetheless, it *cannot* be a direct knowing, for the object is not present to be directly known. -------------------------------------------------------- Let me first say something about the present. Visuddhimagga Ch XIII, 111: ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I haven't a clue of what this is asserting. ----------------------------------------------------------- Round of continuity refers to the processes of citta. As to by extent, it is explained that this is what is delimited by a single becoming. See also Ven. Nyanaponika, Abhidhamma Studies, the present, p. 118, 119. ----- Vis. XIV, 188, Tiika: Tiika: But that temperature which falls on the body, whether hot or cold, and occurs as a continuity in one mode, being neither less nor more, is called "single temperature". The word "single" is used because of the plurality of "like" temperature. -------- N: Temperature that arises and appears as heat or cold impinges on the bodysense. In fact there is a continuity of several units of temperature, but the Tiika explains that they are taken together (eak- ggaha.na.m) as a serial presence, occurring as a continuity in one mode (ekaakaara.m). ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Whatever that means! ----------------------------------------------- -------- Tiika: So too with nutriment. ------ N: It is the same in the case of nutrition that produces groups of ruupa in continuity. It produces heat that can be experienced through the bodysense. Tiika: The explanations of 'continuity' and 'period' (samaya) are given in the Commentaries for the purpose of helping the practice of insight'. (Pm.496). ----------- N: The serial presence is reckoned as the present object for insight. The characteristic of ruupa such as heat or hardness appears and can be object of insight so that it is realized as a conditioned dhamma, not a person or self, not mine. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Bringing in "self" here has no bearing on this issue, Nina. ------------------------------------------------ --------- Seeing-consciousness is a rootless citta, no sati. It experiences visible object. After it has fallen away sati can arise (in a following process) and be aware of it. True, it has fallen away, but it arises again and again and in between sati can arise. Then hearing may appear. Its characteristic is different from seeing, and it can be experienced with sati, without having to think about it. Read the satipatthanasutta: Mindfulness of citta: the citta with raaga or lust, with dosa, with moha. These cittas have just fallen away but they are still objects of the present moment. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: They do not exist. They can ONLY be recalled. (Otherwise, the eternalist/perpetualist Sarvastivadins were right!!) ---------------------------------------------------- Here is no question of a mere recollection of yesterday's lobha etc. It is sati that is directly aware. Awareness which is kusala, cannot arise in the same process of cittas as lobha. It must be in a following process. If one thinks that this is not possible, how could the eightfold Path ever be developed? There is no counting of cittas, no speculation about processes. When one is doing this, one makes sati too difficult. Sati can arise naturally, no speculation. --------- > > N: In dream concepts are experienced in mind-door processes. It > seems that visible object is clearly seen, but in fact it is not > seeing but remembering what one saw before. It seems like real life, > but it is only thinking with remembrance of concepts. > > > A:Often in dreams one dreams WHAT DIDN'T HAPPEN in reality. How is > that > explained? Furthermore, what is the cause of these images (rupas) & > feelings to occur in the dreams? One may see cities, beings, events > which can be too fantastic for ordinary reality , etc. ------ N: You are quite right. Cittas arising in mind-door processes combine concepts on account of remembrance of experiences in real life and construct phantasies about these experiences. Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard #84077 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN 10.60 Girimananda Sutta To Girimananda scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, More regarding: S: "As Nina pointed out, I think, there can be ditthi (wrong understanding) even in a sense-door process, arising with the javana cittas. But you're right, that most of the taking for 'wholes' and the endless proliferating occurs for the most part in the mind-door processes." I was just reading in Sammohavinodanii (p. 173), about 'concealment': "643. But ignorance characterised thus and called 'unknowing about suffering', etc., is a part of the Truth of Suffering. It is conascent; it makes that its object; it conceals it. It is not part of the Truth of Origination; it is conascent; it makes that its object; it conceals it. It is not part of the Truth of Cessation; it is not conascent; it does not make it its object; it only conceals it. Also it is not part of the Truth of the Path; it is not conascent; it does not make it its object; it only conceals it. Ignorance arises having suffering as its object; and it conceals it. Ignorance arises having origination as its object; and it conceals it. Ignorance does not arise having cessation as its object; but it conceals it. Ignorance does not arise having the path as its object; but it conceals it." Scott: Conascence condition, that is, where the conditioning state (whether, say, moha-cetasika or pa~n~naa-cetasika), causes the conditioned states to arise simulaneously, is central here, I think. The 'experience' of the whole or the 'compact', or lack thereof, is immediate, and supports further states by other conditions. Sincerely, Scott. #84078 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (19) nilovg Dear Han, Op 14-mrt-2008, om 11:43 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > As regards my remarks that Pali verse no. 1 to Pali > verse no. 6 do not portray the complete picture of > Object condition, I am very glad that Nina had refuted > my reasoning. Honestly, I was wishing that I was > wrong. These verses are being chanted with deepest > reverence in Burma years and years before I was born. ------ N: I see no problem here, since the other verses come after that. Nina. #84079 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (22) nilovg Dear Han, thank you very much for the quotes by Ashin Janakaabhivamsa. I can add more. Op 14-mrt-2008, om 10:52 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Today, I will quote some examples taken from the book > by Ashin Janakaabhivamsa. > > “Predominant desire or Chandaadhipati” > > Sayadaw Ashin Janakaabhivamsa cited the example of > ascetic Sumedha in explaining the meaning of > predominant desire or chandaadhipati. ------- N: We read in K. Sujin's book on the "Perfections" , Determination, more about chanda. < We read in the “Miscellaneous Sayings”: “Strong desire (chandatå): wholesome desire, the wish for accomplishment. One possessed of the aforesaid qualities must have strong desire, yearning, and longing to practise the qualities issuing in Buddhahood. Only then does his aspiration succeed, not otherwise. The following similes illustrate the magnitude of the desire required. If he were to hear: ‘He alone can attain Buddhahood who can cross a whole world-system filled with water and reach the further shore by the bare strength of his arms’ -- he would not deem that difficult to do, but would be filled with desire for the task and would not shrink away. If he were to hear: ‘He alone can attain Buddhahood who can tread across a whole world-system filled with flameless, smokeless redhot coals, cross out, and reach the other side,’ he would not deem that difficult to do...” He does not become disheartened, he does not show the slightest dislike when he hears, “He alone can attain Buddhahood who can cross a whole world-system filled with water and reach the further shore by the bare strength of his arms”. He is filled with joy and has endeavour to attain Buddhahood. We read: “If he were to hear: ‘He alone can attain Buddhahood who can cut through a whole world-system that has become a jungle of thorny creepers covered by a solid thicket of bamboo, cross out, and reach the other side,’ etc .... If he were to hear: ‘Buddhahood can only be attained after being tortured in hell for four incalculables and a 100,000 aeons’ -- he would not deem that difficult to do, but would be filled with desire for the task and would not shrink away. Such is the magnitude of the desire required.” > Nina. #84080 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 14-mrt-2008, om 13:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I do not know what that means for it to be "still present object" > while having "fallen away." What does not exist cannot be known > except by > recollection. If it does not exist, it DOES NOT EXIST. One can't > have it both > ways. I do not doubt that what WAS experienced served as condition > right then > and there for future recollection, and that recollection following > immediately > after actually experiencing of the object is extremely vivid, almost > duplicating the original perception, but, nonetheless, it *cannot* > be a direct > knowing, for the object is not present to be directly known. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Let me first say something about the present. > Visuddhimagga Ch XIII, 111: that is to say, present by moment, present by continuity, and present > by extent. Herein, what has reached arising (uppaada), presence > (.thiti), and dissolution (bha'nga), is present by moment. What is > included in one or two rounds of continuity is present by continuity.> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I haven't a clue of what this is asserting. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > N: Momentary presence: one citta arises, is present for an > extremely short while and than falls away. > Round of continuity refers to the processes of citta. Presence by continuity: objects are experienced by a process of cittas. Visible object is experienced through the eye-door by eye- door process cittas and then by mind-door process cittas. Here we speak of serial presence: visible object is still present. > > As to by extent, it is explained that this is what is delimited by a > single becoming. N: This is presence in a wider sense: the present life. > See also Ven. Nyanaponika, Abhidhamma Studies, the present, p. 118, > 119. > ----- > Vis. XIV, 188, Tiika: > Tiika: But that temperature which falls on the body, whether hot or > cold, and occurs as a continuity in one mode, being neither less nor > more, is called "single > temperature". The word "single" is used because of the plurality of > "like" temperature. > -------- > N: Temperature that arises and appears as heat or cold impinges on > the bodysense. In fact there is a continuity of several units of > temperature, but the Tiika explains that they are taken together (eak- > ggaha.na.m) as a serial presence, occurring as a continuity in one > mode (ekaakaara.m). > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Whatever that means! > ----------------------------------------------- > N: Say you experience hardness now, without having to think about > it. It seems one moment, but in reality there is a continuity of > hardness, hardness, hardness. The charactreistic of hardness can be > understood as a mere dhamma. Hardness is the present object for > sati and pa~n~naa. I do not speak of recollection of the past, but > of sati that is aware of a charactreistic. Sati has to arise in a > process with kusala javanacittas. anything not clear yet? ------- > N: The serial presence is reckoned as the present object for insight. > The characteristic of ruupa such as heat or hardness appears and can > be object of insight so that it is realized as a conditioned dhamma, > not a person or self, not mine. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Bringing in "self" here has no bearing on this issue, Nina. > ------------------------------------------------ > N: Non-self, and this is very important. It does have bearing on > this issue. > --------- > Seeing-consciousness is a rootless citta, no sati. It experiences > visible object. After it has fallen away sati can arise (in a > following process) and be aware of it. True, it has fallen away, but > it arises again and again and in between sati can arise. Then hearing > may appear. Its characteristic is different from seeing, and it can > be experienced with sati, without having to think about it. > Read the satipatthanasutta: Mindfulness of citta: the citta with > raaga or lust, with dosa, with moha. These cittas have just fallen > away but they are still objects of the present moment. > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > They do not exist. They can ONLY be recalled. (Otherwise, the > eternalist/perpetualist Sarvastivadins were right!!) > ---------------------------------------------------- N: How do you think awareness and understanding, insight, can be developed? How can it be developed of akusala dhammas, which must have fallen away at the moment of sati? What do you think the present object of insight is? Non-existent? Nina. > #84081 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/14/2008 10:16:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: N: How do you think awareness and understanding, insight, can be developed? How can it be developed of akusala dhammas, which must have fallen away at the moment of sati? What do you think the present object of insight is? Non-existent? ============================= What is present exists. What is not does not. With metta, Howard #84082 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:20 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Attachment to our own kusala can arise immediately in between the kusala cittas. The Abhidhamma is of great benefit because it teaches that there are many different processes of cittas, some with kusala cittas and others with akusala cittas, succeeding one another extremely rapidly. All these cittas are arising because of different conditions, there is no person who owns them. The understanding of the truth of paramattha dhammas will lead to detachment from the wrong view of self. We need guidance of the suttas but also of the Abhidhamma. Otherwise we do not learn about the fine distinctions between different moments such as kusala dhammas and akusala dhammas. And if we do not know anything about processes of cittas we have no idea how and when there can be awareness of even akusala dhammas. We would not know how the characteristic of akusala can still be the object of sati and paññå when akusala citta has just fallen away. Kusala citta cannot arise at the same time as akusala citta, but, cittas succeed one another extremely quickly. Kusala citta with awareness can arise very closely after the akusala citta has fallen away, and it can still be aware of the characteristic of akusala. Through the Abhidhamma we learn more about the conditions of the dhammas that arise and this is of immense benefit for the understanding of anattå, no possessor of anything, no self who can steer or manipulate anything. The Buddha taught that all conditioned dhammas are impermanent, dukkha and anattå. These are the three general characteristics of conditioned dhammas that will be clearly penetrated through insight. However, vipassanå is developed stage by stage. The three characteristics are characteristics of nåma and of rúpa, they are not abstract entities. However, before someone can realize the arising and falling away of realities, thus, impermanence, paññå has to directly understand which nåma or which rúpa has arisen and appears and then falls away. In countless suttas the Buddha explained about all the objects experienced one at a time through the six doors. He explained about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, feeling, and thinking which arise all the time. These dhammas have each their own characteristic. First the specific characteristics of nåma and rúpa have to be realized before they can be known as impermanent, dukkha and anattå. Seeing, visible object, cold, hearing, these are all dhammas that each have their own characteristic. When we feel cold there are nåma and rúpa, but we do not distinguish nåma from rúpa; we have an idea, a concept of ourselves feeling cold. In reality cold impinges only on one point of the body at a time, but we join different moments of experiences together into a whole and then we have the impression of feeling cold all over the body. When we are aware of one nåma or rúpa at a time, without thinking, without trying to focus on specific realities, understanding will develop. ****** Nina. #84083 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (14) nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 14-mrt-2008, om 8:38 heeft sarahprocterabbott het volgende geschreven: > S: Ven P. was asking why A.Sujin always stresses on seeing and > visible object and since then in the many suttas that have been > quoted, we can see how the Buddha always begins with the same. > > It is on account of seeing and its object, on account of ignorance of > them, that so many defilements arise in the day. ------- N: That is a good question of Ven. P. I also find that mostly because of what we see the stories are created: people, events, etc. And how we cling! Nina. #84084 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Insignificant (paritta.m) dhammas nilovg Dear Han, All cittas of the sensous plane of citta and sense objects, all these are paritta dhammas. Compare these with the mahaggatta cittas, that is, the jhanacittas, and the lokuttara cittas, these are not paritta dhammas. Nina. Op 14-mrt-2008, om 9:06 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: It means kaamaavacara kusala citta (8), akusala > citta (12), kaamaavacara vipaaka citta (23), > kaamaavacarakiriyaabyaakata citta (11), all ruupas, > these are insignificant dhammas. > > ---- #84085 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Insignificant (paritta.m) dhammas hantun1 Dear Nina (Sarah), Thank you very much for your clarification. Respectfully, Han #84086 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (22) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your very valuable additions. Ashin Janakaabhivamsa did mention about: “If he were to hear: ‘He alone can attain Buddhahood who can tread across a whole world-system filled with flameless, smokeless redhot coals, cross out, and reach the other side,’ he would not deem that difficult to do...” which I failed to include in my presentation. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > thank you very much for the quotes by Ashin > Janakaabhivamsa. I can > add more. #84087 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:43 am Subject: Perfections Corner (107) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - This is the continuation of Chapter 3 The Perfection of Renunciation. When we continue to crave for evermore sense pleasures, it shows that we have defilements. We should ask ourselves whether we wish to have more defilements. Each time we are attached to visible object and the other sense objects, defilements arise. If we do not realize that we have already a great deal of defilements, the thought of renunciation will not arise. We may want to obtain still more pleasant sense objects and never be contented with what we have already. We do not have to become a monk in order to develop renunciation, but we could ask ourselves whether we have already enough pleasant things. It may happen that we, for example, do not wish to buy more clothing again that merely serves as beautification of the body, and we may consider what we have as more than sufficient. In that case we have renunciation in daily life. We should begin to investigate and consider with regard to ourselves whether our possessions are already sufficient; we should become contented with what we have. If we obtain more than we need, we could give it away if it can be of use to others. In that way the perfection of renunciation develops. Instead of sensuous thinking there can be thinking of renunciation. If we want to eradicate defilements it is essential to consider the perfections in our daily life. We should reflect on the Buddha’s former lives, on his conduct leading to Buddhahood. We may think the stories about his former lives just very ordinary, but, in fact, these stories deal with the perfections the Bodhisatta developed during all those lives. To be continued. Metta, Han #84088 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:00 am Subject: Patthaana (23) hantun1 Patthaana (23) Dear All, This is the continuation of (3). Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya) The Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya) has two components: (1) the conascence predominance (sahajaataadhipati), and (2) the object predominance (aaramma.naadhipati). This is the continuation of the conascence predominance (sahajaataadhipati) “Predominant consciousness or Cittaadhipati” Sayadaw Ashin Janakaabhivamsa emphasized on the need to have a very strong mind to achieve any stated goal. A person with a strong mind can develop the four factors of desire, effort, mind and investigation to become predominant factors, one at a time. But it may be difficult for a person with a weak mind to be able to do so. The leading role played by the mind in our daily life is also evident by the following two Dhammapada verses: Nos. 1 and 2, translated by Daw Mya Tin. Verse 1: mano pubbangamaa dhammaa manosetthaa manomayaa manasaa ce padu.t.thena bhaasati vaa karoti vaa tato nam dukkhamanveti cakkam va vahato padam. Verse 1: All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner; they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made. If one speaks or acts with an evil mind, suffering (dukkha) follows him just as the wheel follows the hoof-print of the ox that draws the cart. Verse 2: mano pubbangamaa dhammaa manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce pasannena bhaasati vaa karoti vaa tato nam sukhamanveti chaayaa va anapaayinii. Verse 2: All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner; they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made. If one speaks or acts with a pure mind, happiness (sukha) follows him like a shadow that never leaves him. So it is understandable that a strong mind is needed to develop Predominant consciousness or Cittaadhipati. ----------- Han: Among the ruupas or materiality that are produced by four causes, namely, (i) kamma; (ii) citta, (iii) utu or heat element or temperature, and (iv) aahaara or nutriments, two vi~n~natti-ruupas are exclusively produced by citta alone. They are (i) kaaya-vi~n~natti or body intimation by action of hand, head, eye, leg, etc., which let others understand one’s intention; and (ii) vaci-vi~n~natti or speech intimation by the movement of the mouth and lips to produce speech to let others understand one’s intention. When our mind is strong it can become Predominant consciousness and dominate our kaaya-vi~n~natti and vaci-vi~n~natti in our daily life. The examples of the role played by the two vinnatti-ruupas are many in our daily life. For example, in dhamma practice, the sitting down meditation and the walking meditation are the manifestations of kaaya-vinnatti, while dhamma discussions are carried out by vaci-vinnatti. When our mind is strong it can become Predominant consciousness and dominate the above-mentioned activities. If I may take an example from the game of tennis, some tennis fans might have seen a tennis player, after winning a point with a very difficult shot, pumping his fist in the air and yelling “Come-on!” That is the manifestation of kaaya-vinnatti and vaci-vinnatti in action, produced by the mind, and dominated by cittaadhipati. Considering these various potentials of the mind, it is not difficult to realize that, if it is intensified to the level of predominant consciousness (cittaadhipati), it can be a very useful asset for us in our quest for spiritual development. The conascence predominance (sahajaataadhipati) to be continued. Metta, Han #84089 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:04 am Subject: Serene Tranquillity... bhikkhu0 Friends: What is the Tranquillity Link to Awakening? The Tranquillity Link to Awakening (passaddhi-sambojjhanga) has the characteristic of peace, and the function of stilling, which manifests as absence of restless trembling. Stillness of feeling, perception and mental construction is the factor that induces bodily Tranquillity. Stillness of consciousness itself induces mental Tranquillity. The proximate cause of Tranquillity is the satisfaction within Joy! The resulting effect of Tranquillity is the bliss within Happiness! The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (Ä?sava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Tranquillity Link to Awakening based on seclusion, based on disillusion, based on ceasing, and culminating in cool relinquishment, then neither can mental fermentation, nor any fever, nor any discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one who is joyous, the body becomes calm & the mind becomes calm. The Tranquillity Link to Awakening emerges right there. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] CALMED Calm is his thought, calm is his speech, and calm is his deed, who, truly knowing, is wholly freed, perfectly tranquil and wise. Dhammapada 96 CONTENT The one who eliminates discontent, tearing it out by the roots, utterly cuts it out, such one spontaneously becomes absorbed in the calm of tranquillity both day & night. Dhammapada 250 COMPOSED The one who is tranquil in movement, calmed in speech, stilled in thought, collected & composed, who sees right through & rejects all allurements of this world, such one is truly a 'Peaceful One'. Dhammapada 378 Further inspirations on the calming & soothing quality of Tranquillity: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Feeding_Tranquillity.htm Serene Tranquillity... Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ... #84090 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:59 am Subject: Re: Panna in the non-ariyan (was, Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17)) jonoabb Hi Tep Now that you've had a break for a few days, I'm hoping you're ready to start posting again ;-)) Tep Sastri wrote: > Hi Jon, - > > Thank you very much for the nice attention that is associated with a > willingness to listen. > You're welcome. >> Jon: >> Just coming in, if I may, to try to get a better handle on what >> you are saying on this question of panna of the level of insight >> being exclusive to the sotapanna and above (if I've understood >> you correctly). > > T: What you said is correct, assuming that you know I was referring > to the definition of pa~n~naa in Dhammasangani and Patisambhidamagga. > I do not talk about understanding in general or about the process of > development of understanding (because we already discussed that in > another thread). ... > > > Please read message #83924 to get the background information relevant > to the discussion I had with Scott and Nina on pa~n~naa. > OK, I have read message #83924 again, and I can see that you're not saying that panna is exclusive to the arahant. In that message you say: "Please notice that my discussion of pa~n~naa and pa~n~nindriya in Dhammasangani and the Patism is not about the mundane development of understanding in stages. I am talking about the synonyms of pa~n~naa: pa~n~naaindriya, pa~n~naabala, and dukkha~nanaa that are only found in the domain of the ariya puggalas. And the definitions of these ariya dhammas are given in Dhammasangani and Patisambhidamagga." I think your point is that the terms "panna", "pannindriya" and "dukkha-naana" as defined in the Dhammasangani and the Patism are referring exclusively to the understanding of the ariyan (of any of the 4 stages of enlightenment). Have I understood correctly? If so, I'd like to go on and look at those definitions. But grateful for your confirmation first that I have understood the issue. By the way, what (if any) do you see as being the practical implications of this point? Looking forward to continuing our discussion. Jon #84091 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. nilovg Hi Howard, I was discussing this subject with Lodewijk, and he said, Howard always has a point. He said it is really difficult to understand how what is past can be object of awareness. Below more reflections, but I do not pretend to understand everything. Op 14-mrt-2008, om 15:35 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What is present exists. What is not does not. -------- N: There are two conditons among the twentyfour classes in the Patthaana I would like to reflect more on: absence-condition and disappearance-condition. They are the same as anantara-condition: contiguity-condition, but they stress certain aspects. I wrote this before: As regards absence-condition, natthi-paccaya, we read in the “Paììhåna” (Analytical Exposiiton, iI, 23): States, citta and cetasikas, which have just disappeared in contiguity, are related to present states, citta and cetasikas, by absence-condition. This condition is similar to proximity-condition, anantara-paccaya, and contiguity-condition, samanantara-condition. The citta which falls away conditions the arising of the next one by way of proximity-condition and contiguity-condition. However, the next citta can only arise when the preceding one has fallen away, when it is absent. Absence does not mean that the citta never was there; it has arisen and fallen away, and then it conditions the arising of the subsequent citta without any interval. There can only be one citta at a time which arises and then falls away, but there is a sucession of cittas from birth to death and then there is rebirth again. The cycle of birth and death continues until all defilements have been eradicated and one finally passes away. ... Disappearance-condition is identical with absence-condition. ... Identical conditions have been given different names, “as an embellishment of teaching to suit the needs of those who are teachable”, the “Visuddhimagga” (XVII, 100) states. Disappearance-condition is the same as absence-condition, but the word disappearance helps us to understand that the absence of the conditioning dhamma does not mean that it never was. The preceding citta, which is the conditioning dhamma, has just disappeared and thus it can condition the arising of the subsequent citta, the conditioned dhamma, without any interval. If we do not learn about the different conditions under different aspects we may have misunderstandings about the moments of their arising and falling away.> ----- I quote this, because these conditions are deep in meaning. I think if we do not duly consider them and understand them, we may lean over to annihilation belief. That is why I like to be careful with the words: what has fallen away is non-existent. You were concerned that I have eternity belief, but as you often say, there should be the middle way between eternity belief and annihilation belief. ----- You wrote before; Perhaps you remember discussions about nimitta, the sign of a nama or rupa? Here I do not refer to nimitta in the sense of: the outward appearance and details of things, like table, chair, etc. Nimitta of conditioned dhammas, sankhaara nimitta, thus, not just ordinary concepts. Visible object falls away but a nimitta of it remains. This does not mean there cannot be awareness and understanding of its characteristic. But we cannot pinpoint: this visible object, and this, and this, since they arise and fall away, but they impinge again and again. I quoted a text for you and before I also found this difficult. But now I find it clearer: ---------------------------------------------------- Thus, there are many rupas of heat that are alike, similar, impinging again and again, and we shall not try to catch the present one. But its characteristic can be object of awareness. Why is this important? This leads to detachment from taking it for a thing, a person. Visible object has a characteristic: it is seen through eyesense. It is not a person that is seen. Heat has another characteristic, it is experienced through the bodysense. It is not a fire or flame, just heat. Never mind if the present one (refering to momentary presence) cannot be caught. Who could catch one extremely short moment? Understanding its characteristic is sufficient for detachment. That is what matters. Here I do not refer yet to the three general characteristics, we have to know first the specific characteristics of all nama and rupa that appear. I do not pretend to know all about nimitta and about characteristics, I am just learning. Nina. #84092 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:25 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Daer friends, When the first stage of tender insight, which is only a beginning stage, arises, paññå directly penetrates the characteristic of nåma as nåma and of rúpa as rúpa, without having to name them nåma and rúpa. Nåma has to be known as nåma, an element that experiences an object, and rúpa has to be known as rúpa, an element that does not know anything. They appear one at a time through the six doorways. Intellectual understanding of nåma and rúpa should be correct, and in this way it can be the foundation for direct understanding. Because of our ignorance of realities we believe that we can see and hear at the same time, feel hardness of the table and see a table at the same time. Through the study of the Abhidhamma we learn that each citta experiences only one object at a time. Seeing experiences only colour, hearing experiences only sound. Hearing does not experience words nor does it know the meaning of words, those are cittas different from hearing. Evenso, the citta with sati and paññå only experiences one object at a time. Any reality that appears, be it seeing, colour, attachment or aversion, can be the object of sati and paññå. We are bound to take thinking for direct awareness. First we have intellectual understanding of realities, but when there are the right conditions there can be direct awareness without thinking. Then we shall know the characteristic of sati that is directly aware. Acharn Sujin said: “We may just think of the words, nåma experiences and rúpa does not know anything. However, paññå has to grow so that it can realize the different characteristics of nåma and rúpa as not a person. Then it can realize one characteristic at a time, it can realize that this is a reality which experiences and that is a reality which does not experience anything.” What we take for ourselves or a person are only different nåma- elements and rúpa elements arising because of their appropriate conditions. Elements, dhåtus, are realities devoid of self. U Narada wrote in his Introduction to the translation of Dhåtu-Kathå, the third Book of the Abhidhamma (PTS:Discourse on Elements): „The elements are not permanently present. They arise to exhibit their own characteristic natures and perform their own characteristic functions when the proper conditions are satisfied, and they cease after their span of duration. Thus no being has any control over the arising and ceasing of the elements and they are not at his mercy or will however mighty and powerful he may be. In other words, the elements have no regard for anyone, show no favour to anyone and do not accede to the wishes of anyone. They are entirely dependent on conditions... For example, when the four conditions: a visible object, the sense of sight, light and attention, are present, the eye-consciousness element arises. No power can prevent this element from arising when these conditions are present or cause it to arise when one of them is absent.” ****** Nina. #84093 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lodewijk) - Nina, of what you say below, the aspect that I take as compatible with my thinking on this topic is the notion of "nimitta". I identify that with a fresh memory (or vivid "image") of what has just ceased. I view it as concept - but not vague or fuzzy concept. Instead I view it as a mental projection arising as the content of an instantaneous recollection of the just-ceased object, a mental creation which, while NOT the original object, is a near-perfect photocopy of it. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/15/2008 10:20:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I was discussing this subject with Lodewijk, and he said, Howard always has a point. He said it is really difficult to understand how what is past can be object of awareness. Below more reflections, but I do not pretend to understand everything. Op 14-mrt-2008, om 15:35 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What is present exists. What is not does not. -------- N: There are two conditons among the twentyfour classes in the Patthaana I would like to reflect more on: absence-condition and disappearance-condition. They are the same as anantara-condition: contiguity-condition, but they stress certain aspects. I wrote this before: As regards absence-condition, natthi-paccaya, we read in the “PaììhÃ¥naâ€? (Analytical Exposiiton, iI, 23): States, citta and cetasikas, which have just disappeared in contiguity, are related to present states, citta and cetasikas, by absence-condition. ----- You wrote before; condition right then and there for future recollection, and that recollection following immediately after actually experiencing of the object is extremely vivid, almost duplicating the original perception, but, nonetheless, it *cannot* be a direct knowing, for the object is not present to be directly known. > Perhaps you remember discussions about nimitta, the sign of a nama or rupa? Here I do not refer to nimitta in the sense of: the outward appearance and details of things, like table, chair, etc. Nimitta of conditioned dhammas, sankhaara nimitta, thus, not just ordinary concepts. Visible object falls away but a nimitta of it remains. This does not mean there cannot be awareness and understanding of its characteristic. But we cannot pinpoint: this visible object, and this, and this, since they arise and fall away, but they impinge again and again. I quoted a text for you and before I also found this difficult. But now I find it clearer: ---------------------------------------------------- Thus, there are many rupas of heat that are alike, similar, impinging again and again, and we shall not try to catch the present one. But its characteristic can be object of awareness. Why is this important? This leads to detachment from taking it for a thing, a person. Visible object has a characteristic: it is seen through eyesense. It is not a person that is seen. Heat has another characteristic, it is experienced through the bodysense. It is not a fire or flame, just heat. Never mind if the present one (refering to momentary presence) cannot be caught. Who could catch one extremely short moment? Understanding its characteristic is sufficient for detachment. That is what matters. Here I do not refer yet to the three general characteristics, we have to know first the specific characteristics of all nama and rupa that appear. I do not pretend to know all about nimitta and about characteristics, I am just learning. Nina. #84094 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (23) nilovg Dear Han, Op 15-mrt-2008, om 10:00 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > When our mind > is strong it can become Predominant consciousness and > dominate our kaaya-vi~n~natti and vaci-vi~n~natti in > our daily life. -------- N: As to citta I would like to add, quoting from my Conditions: Citta can be a predominance-condition for the accompanying cetasikas, but not all cittas can be predominance-condition. As we have seen, predominance-condition can operate only when there are javana-cittas accompanied by at least two roots. Seeing, for example, is an ahetuka citta (without roots), it can only perform the function of seeing and it cannot be predominance-condition. Moha-múla-citta, which has moha as its only root cannot be predominance-condition. Lobha-múla-citta and dosa-múla-citta have each two roots (respectively moha and lobha, and moha and dosa), they can be predominance-condition; then they have a dominating influence over the accompanying cetasikas in the fulfilling of a task or enterprise in the unwholesome way. All mahå- kusala cittas (kusala cittas of the sense-sphere) and all mahå- kiriyacittas (of the arahat), always have the two roots of alobha, non-attachment, and adosa, non-aversion, and they can have in addition the root which is paññå, thus, they have two or three roots and therefore they can be predominance-condition. When we accomplish a task with cittas which are resolute, firmly established in kusala, the citta can be the predominance-condition. The jhånacittas (kusala jhånacittas and kiriya jhånacittas of the arahat) and the lokuttara cittas are always accompanied by paññå, they have three roots, and thus they can be predominance-condition. -------- > H: The examples of the role played by the two > vinnatti-ruupas are many in our daily life. For > example, in dhamma practice, the sitting down > meditation and the walking meditation are the > manifestations of kaaya-vinnatti, while dhamma > discussions are carried out by vaci-vinnatti. When our > mind is strong it can become Predominant consciousness > and dominate the above-mentioned activities. ------- N: Sitting in meditation is not a manifestation of kaaya-vinnatti. The reason is, that the vi~n~natti rupas are the means of conveying a meaning. You want to express a meaning to someone by means of gestures or speech. -------- > H: If I may take an example from the game of tennis, some > tennis fans might have seen a tennis player, after > winning a point with a very difficult shot, pumping > his fist in the air and yelling “Come-on!” That is the > manifestation of kaaya-vinnatti and vaci-vinnatti in > action, produced by the mind, and dominated by > cittaadhipati. ------ N: Yes, here is the conveying of a meaning. Done with lobha-mulacitta that has two roots and can therefore be firmness of citta that is predominance-condition for the accompanying dhammas and also for the rupa produced by citta. -------- > H: Considering these various potentials of the mind, it > is not difficult to realize that, if it is intensified > to the level of predominant consciousness > (cittaadhipati), it can be a very useful asset for us > in our quest for spiritual development. ------- N: when we listen to the Dhamma intently with the purpose to have more understanding of realities, one of the four factors can be predominance-condition. Sometimes it may be chanda, when there is zeal, we really desire to do this. Sometimes viriya, it takes an effort to really listen; sometimes citta: there is firmness of kusala citta; sometimes vimamsa, investigation of the dhamma: we weight things up, consider and reflect, and are aware. Nina. #84095 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:06 am Subject: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Folks The Buddha teaches insight in such a manner -- "Any kind of form whatsoever ... any kind of feeling whatsoever ... any kind of perception whatsoever ... any kind of volitional formations whatsoever ... any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near -- one sees all [of these] as it really is with correct wisdom thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self. When one knows and sees thus, bhikkhu, then in regard to this body with consciousness and in regard to all external signs, I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit no longer occur within." So the Buddha demonstrates various ways to see the 5 Aggregates in order to "view them properly" and to utilize them as insight to overcome attachment.... 1) Past, future, or present ... Of these three, only one has the possibility of "direct knowledge." The other two are certainly inference. 2) Internal or external ... Only one of these two has the possibility of being direct knowledge. The other inference. 3) Subtle or gross, inferior or superior ... These four could be either direct knowledge or inference. 4) Far or near. Only one of these two could be direct knowledge; but is not necessarily so. So 11 ways to insightfully realize how the 5 Aggregates "really are." -- According to the Buddha. Only Two of the Eleven are definitely Direct Knowledge insights. Four of them are definitely not direct Knowledge insights. And the others could be included in either or both categories. My point is that -- both Direct Knowledge's and Inferential Knowledge's support each other and they are both crucial to the development of overcoming suffering. The idea that insight is limited to "knowing present realities" is absurd. I don't know how many hundreds or thousands of Suttas would contradict that notion. But it would certainly be in at least "the hundreds." TG #84096 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:33 pm Subject: Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive lbidd2 Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Folks > > > The Buddha teaches insight in such a manner -- > > > "Any kind of form whatsoever ... any kind of feeling whatsoever ... any kind > of perception whatsoever ... any kind of volitional formations whatsoever > ... any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, > internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near -- one > sees all [of these] as it really is with correct wisdom thus: This is not > mine, this I am not, this is not my self. When one knows and sees thus, bhikkhu, > then in regard to this body with consciousness and in regard to all external > signs, I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit no > longer occur within." Larry: The question is, what constitutes "when one knows and sees thus". One can easily come to these conclusions by reason but I-making, mine-making and the tendency to conceit continue. Larry #84097 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (23) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your comments, which I have noted very carefully. Your comment on citta is new to me and I benefit from it. *Citta can be a predominance-condition for the accompanying cetasikas, but not all cittas can be predominance-condition. *Predominance-condition can operate only when there are javana-cittas accompanied by at least two roots. *Seeing, an ahetuka citta (without roots), and moha-múla-citta, which has moha as its only root cannot be predominance-condition. *Lobha-múla-citta and dosa-múla-citta have each two roots (respectively moha and lobha, and moha and dosa), they can be predominance-condition. *All mahå-kusala cittas (kusala cittas of the sense-sphere) and all mahå-kiriyacittas (of the arahat), always have the two roots of alobha, non-attachment, and adosa, non-aversion, and they can have in addition the root which is paññå, thus, they have two or three roots and therefore they can be predominance-condition. -------------------- Han: I also thank you for showing me to understand correctly kaaya-vinnatti and vaci-vinnatti. -------------------- Han: I also like your concluding remark: Nina: when we listen to the Dhamma intently with the purpose to have more understanding of realities, one of the four factors can be predominance-condition. Sometimes it may be chanda, when there is zeal, we really desire to do this. Sometimes viriya, it takes an effort to really listen; sometimes citta: there is firmness of kusala citta; sometimes vimamsa, investigation of the dhamma: we weight things up, consider and reflect, and are aware. -------------------- Respectfully, Han #84098 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:26 pm Subject: Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear TG, Regarding: "Any kind of form whatsoever ..." Scott: May I have the reference, please? Sincerely, Scott. #84099 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/15/2008 3:33:21 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Larry: The question is, what constitutes "when one knows and sees thus". One can easily come to these conclusions by reason but I-making, mine-making and the tendency to conceit continue. Larry Hi Larry "When one knows thus" means that -- it is known that these things are "not self" to the extent necessary to overcome conceit...which is analogous to Arahatship. That's my take anyway. TG #84100 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/15/2008 4:27:21 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, Regarding: "Any kind of form whatsoever ..." Scott: May I have the reference, please? Sincerely, Scott. ................................................. Hi Scott This Suttas formula reoccurs in various Suttas and is pretty common. I happened to copy it from Book 3 of Samyutta Nikaya -- Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol 1, pg. 927. TG #84101 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive lbidd2 Hi TG, TG: ""When one knows thus" means that -- it is known that these things are "not self" to the extent necessary to overcome conceit...which is analogous to Arahatship. That's my take anyway." Larry: So there is a difference between one kind of inference and another kind. One kind results in arahatship and another kind makes little difference. Obviously what we want to know is what makes the difference. Larry #84102 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Thanks, TG, TG: "This Suttas formula reoccurs in various Suttas and is pretty common. I happened to copy it from Book 3 of Samyutta Nikaya -- Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol 1, pg. 927." Scott: I found it SN22 82(10) Pu~n~namaasutta.m. - I think that's the same one. Sincerely, Scott. #84103 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive truth_aerator Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > Larry: So there is a difference between one kind of inference and > another kind. One kind results in arahatship and another kind makes > little difference. Obviously what we want to know is what makes the > difference. > > Larry > I suggest to read: --- Here Then Ven. Pavittha said to Ven. Musila, "Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'From birth as a requisite condition come aging & death'?" "Yes, Pavittha my friend. Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views, I do have truly personal knowledge that, 'From birth as a requisite condition come aging & death.'" (Similarly with 'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth'... 'From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming'... 'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance'... 'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving'... 'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling'... 'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact'... 'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media'... 'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form'... 'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.') http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.068.than.html ------------------ Again, Sandaka, a certain teacher goes by hearsay and takes it as the truth. To a teacher who goes by hearsay, the tradition becomes the truth. He may have heard it correctly or may not have heard it correctly. It becomes the truth to him, the truth may be something else. Sandaka, a wise man should reflect. This teacher goes by hearsay. He preaches what has reached him by tradition and hearsay. What he has heard may be the truth or not. I, should know and turn away from that holy life as unsatisfactory. Sandaka, this is the second holy life, the Blessed One who knows, sees, is perfect and rightfully enlightened has declared as unsatisfactory and should not be lived. The wise man if possible does not live and even if he lives is not convinced, that it is merit.. Again, Sandaka, a certain teacher goes by logic, arguing logically brings out a teaching by himself beaten out. In the teaching of a logical teacher, some arguments may be true and others may not be true. Sandaka, a wise man should reflect. This teacher goes by logic. He preaches what he has beaten out by logical conclusion. His arguments may be authentic or not, I should know and turn away from that holy life as unsatisfactory. Sandaka, this is the third holy life, the Blessed One who knows and sees, is perfect and rightfully enlightened has declared as unsatisfactory and should not be lived. The wise man if possible does not live and even if he lives is not convinced, that it is merit.. [Alex: Now, which holy life does Buddha suggest? Read the rest of the wonderful sutta :)] http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/076-sandaka-e1.htm ------------- Lots of Metta, Alex #84104 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/15/2008 6:52:46 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Larry: So there is a difference between one kind of inference and another kind. One kind results in arahatship and another kind makes little difference. Obviously what we want to know is what makes the difference. Larry Hi Larry Yes, I'd agree -- in that there are suitable inferences that are helpful in cultivating the insight that can liberate the mind. These types of inferences assist direct mindfulness/insight in stimulating the power for the mind to detach from "the conditioned." TG #84105 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive lbidd2 Hi TG and Alex, I would say the clarity of inferences about the nature of 'any and all' dhammas is directly dependent on the clear perception and understanding of the nature of presently arising dhammas. If one cannot see directly that this present feeling is not me and not mine, what difference does it make to reason from premises that 'feeling' in the abstract is not me and not mine? By "seeing directly" I am referring to an experience of understanding which is also a letting-go rather than a clinging. "Direct" is actually a teaching translation of "abhi" which is literally "ultimate". I take it to be similar in meaning to "penetrate", meaning penetrate the grasp of clinging immediately (without mediation). Insight isn't restricted to the present moment but present experience is where we live and therefore is where insight begins and ends. Desire desires what is not present and clinging tries to hold on to what is present. Insight penetrates that evasion of the present. I agree that there is an element of inference in insight but the point is that we cling to conceptual understanding (ditthi) and let go of insight (pa~n~naa). Larry #84106 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:53 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (108) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - This is the continuation of Chapter 3 The Perfection of Renunciation. We read in the Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct”, the “Conduct of Sona Nanda” [1] : “At that time the Bodhisatta passed away from the Brahma world and was born as the son of a Brahmin magnate who had a possession worth eighty crores, in the city of Brahmavaddhana. His parents called him young Sona. When Sona could walk, another being passed away from the Brahma world and he too was conceived by the Bodhisatta’s mother. When he was born they called him young Nanda. The venerable Ånanda was at that time Nanda. When their parents observed how handsome the boys were they let them be educated in all the liberal arts and they wanted them to marry. However, the Bodhisatta did not wish to marry. He wanted to look after his parents during their whole life, and after their death retire from worldly life. His parents tried to persuade him to marry, but the Bodhisatta was firmly convinced that he should become an ascetic. Thereupon his parents wanted to entrust their possessions to Nanda instead, but Nanda said, ‘Since my older brother Sona did not accept your possessions, I will not accept them either, and I shall also become an ascetic.’ The parents were much surprised that their two sons wanted in their young age to give up their possessions and retire from worldly life. When they noticed the firm determination of their sons, and saw that they were able to become ascetics although they were quite young, they also wanted to retire from worldly life. At that time they built a hermitage in the wood and the two brothers looked after their parents. The sage Nanda thought, ‘We shall just gather fruits as food for our parents.’ He would bring fruits that were left over from the previous day, or that he had gathered on previous days, and give them to his parents to eat early in the morning. When they had eaten them they would rinse their mouths and observe a fast. But the sage Sona went somewhat further away to gather sweet and ripe fruits with a delicious flavour and offered these to them. His parents said to Sona, ‘We have already eaten and we are observing a fast, and therefore we have no need of these fruits.’ However, the fruits that the sage Nanda had gathered before in order to give to his parents early in the morning were sometimes spoiled. Thereupon the Bodhisatta thought, ‘My parents are delicate, they belong to a high caste, and thus they should not eat fruits that are not good. Sometimes they are spoilt or unripe. Nanda brings all kinds of half-ripe or unripe fruits for them to eat and therefore they will not live long.’ He wanted to stop Nanda from doing this, and addressed him with the words: ‘From now on, when you have gathered fruits for our parents, you have to wait until I have returned, and then we shall both at the same time supply them with food. They should not merely eat the fruits of Nanda.’ When the sage Sona had spoken thus, the sage Nanda did not follow up what his brother said because he hoped to gain merit for himself. He hoped that his parents would eat only the fruits that he had brought himself. When the Bodhisatta noticed that the sage Nanda paid no heed to his words he told him to go somewhere else, and that he himself would take care of his parents. When the sage Nanda was dismissed by his brother he took leave of the Bodhisatta and of his parents. He developed the eight attainments and the five higher powers and then he wanted to ask his brother forgiveness.” These are the thoughts of someone who has accumulated the perfections and knows what is proper and what not. Note [1] See also the Sona Nanda Jaataka, no. 532. To be continued. Metta, Han #84107 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:00 am Subject: Patthaana (24) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of (3). Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya) The Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya) has two components: (1) the conascence predominance (sahajaataadhipati), and (2) the object predominance (aaramma.naadhipati). This is the continuation of the conascence predominance (sahajaataadhipati) “Investigation or Viimamsaadhipati” Sayadaw Ashin Janakabhivamsa brought up the fact that our Bodhisatta had developed his pa~n~na paarami or the perfection of wisdom in his previous lives. He was a highly respected teacher in many of his previous lives, and if he were a student he was always a very brilliant student. Sayadaw also cited some examples of pa~n~na paarami from jaataka stories, such as jaataka 542: the story of Mahosadhaa; jaataka 546: the story of Vidhura, etc. I will not elaborate on these stories; otherwise, my post will become too long. I also I looked at the suttas for related information as to how one can develop predominant investigation of Dhamma or pa~n~na. I have already quoted SN 51.13 Chanda-samaadhi sutta in my (Patthaana 21). The entire Iddhipaada samyutta (the Four Bases of Power) is full of similar suttas with regard to these four factors of desire, energy, mind and investigation, becoming iddhipaadas or the basis for spiritual power, when they are intensified by making an effort (vaayamati), arousing energy (viiriyam aarabhati), applying one’s mind (cittam pagganhaati), and striving (padahati). Next, I looked at Anguttara Nikaya, and found one related sutta which I wish to share with the members. It is AN 8.2 Pa~n~na sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html The following excerpts are from the same sutta, but translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi. There are, O monks, these eight causes and conditions for obtaining the wisdom fundamental to the holy life when it has not been obtained and for bringing about the increase, maturation and fulfillment by development of the wisdom that has already been obtained. What eight? (i) Here, a monk lives in dependence on the Teacher or on a certain fellow monk in the position of a teacher, and he has set up towards him a keen sense of shame and moral dread and regards him with affection and respect. (ii) As he is living in dependence on such teachers, he approaches them from time to time and inquires: “How is this, venerable sir? What is the meaning of this?” Those venerable ones then disclose to him what he has not been disclosed, clear up what is obscure, and dispel his perplexity about many perplexing points. (iii) Having learnt the Dhamma, he dwells withdrawn by way of two kinds of withdrawal: withdrawal of body and withdrawal of mind. (iv) He is virtuous, restrained by the restraint of the Paatimokkha, perfect in conduct and resort, seeing danger in the slightest faults. Having undertaking the training rules, he trains himself in them. (v) He has learnt much, remembers what he has learnt, and consolidates what he has learnt. Such teachings as are good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing, and which affirm a holy life that is perfectly complete and pure – such teachings as these he has learnt much of, memorized, recited verbally, investigated with the mind, and penetrated well by view. (vi) He is energetic; he lives with energy set upon the abandoning of everything unwholesome and the acquiring of everything wholesome; he is steadfast and strong in his effort, not shirking his task in regard to wholesome qualities. (vii) When he is in the midst of the Sangha, he does not engage in rambling and pointless talk. Either he himself speaks on the Dhamma or he requests others to do so, or he does not slight noble silence. (viii) He dwells contemplating rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging. For these eight reasons his fellow monks esteem him as one who truly knows and truly sees, and these qualities lead to affection, esteem, concord and unity. ------------------------------ Han: If a person follows the above requisite conditions, I am sure he will be able to develop the Predominant investigation (viimamsaadhipati). We will take up the Object predominance (Aaramma.naadhipati) in the next post. Metta, Han #84108 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Larry In a message dated 3/15/2008 10:26:00 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Insight isn't restricted to the present moment but present experience is where we live and therefore is where insight begins and ends. ................................................... NEW TG: Well, this is why I posted the Buddha's teaching. It doesn't jibe with what you've written above. Well, actually, looking at you're above sentence, it has an internal contradiction so its a bit cloudy what you mean. ...................................................... Desire desires what is not present and clinging tries to hold on to what is present. Insight penetrates that evasion of the present. ........................................................... NEW TG: Interesting distinction you are making between desiring the non-present and clinging to the present. But I don't agree and I don't know where you come up with this. Same holds for you last sentence below. Take care. TG ........................................................ I agree that there is an element of inference in insight but the point is that we cling to conceptual understanding (ditthi) and let go of insight (pa~n~naa). Larry #84109 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:44 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, The Abhidhamma helps us to understand the meaning of anattå, non- self, in our daily life. The wrong view of self gives rise to many other defilements, it causes sorrow. So long as wrong view is not eradicated, the other defilements cannot be eradicated. Acharn Sujin said: “Do not forget anattå. At this moment there is nobody. We have heard the word anattå and now it is time to know that this very moment is anattå. The dhamma that appears does not belong to anyone, it arises because of conditions. If it had not arisen it could not appear and be known. It falls away instantly." She explained that one may go to another place and try very hard to develop understanding, but that it is essential to understand the dhamma appearing at this very moment. We may think about the names of realities, but this is different from “studying” with awareness, “studying” the characteristic of the dhamma that appears without the need of words. However, the notion of self is likely to occur after a moment of awareness. Acharn Sujin said: “A moment of kusala citta with sati is very short and lobha follows instantly. Lobha does not let go of the object. If we do not understand that lobha is the second noble Truth, the origination of dukkha, it is impossible to eliminate lobha. Lobha is our teacher and follower, it never goes away. Paññå can realize the characteristic of lobha when it appears. It realizes that each reality has its own characteristic and that it is conditioned.” We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Ch 5, § 150, Resident Pupil) that the Buddha said to the monks: Without a resident pupil, and without a teacher this righteous life is lived. A monk who dwells with a resident pupil or dwells with a teacher dwells woefully, dwells not at ease. And how, monks, does a monk who has a resident pupil, who has a teacher, not dwell at ease? Herein, monks, in a monk who sees visible object with the eye, there arise in him evil, unprofitable states, memories and aspirations connected with the fetters. Evil, unprofitable states are resident, reside in him. Hence he is called “co-resident”. They beset him, those evil, unprofitable states beset him. Therefore is he called “dwelling with a teacher”. So also with the ear...the tongue...the mind... The opposite is true for him who is without a resident pupil and without a teacher. When a monk had a pupil he would be his co-resident, he would live with him all the time. Lobha and the other defilements are like a resident pupil one lives with continuously, or they are like a teacher who tells one to act in the wrong way. This sutta points to the development of satipatthåna, reminding us not to be neglectful, but to develop right understanding of visible object, sound and the other objects that present themselves through the six doorways. The development of the eightfold Path is not just observing or noticing realities. This might be done with lobha or an idea of self who observes. The development of the Path is detachment from the beginning to the end. ****** Nina. #84110 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:43 am Subject: Perfect Pleasure! bhikkhu0 Friends: What is the Concentration Link to Awakening? Fixed Focus is the characteristic of the Concentration Link to Awakening (SamÄ?dhi-Sambojjhanga). Ceasing of distraction, disturbance, diversion, agitation, mental instability and wavering is the purpose of the quality of Concentration (SamÄ?dhi). Incisive certainty is the manifestation of the Concentration Link to Awakening. This stability enables breakthrough to Understanding! Some concentration is present in all consciousness. Training anchoring of attention on only 1 object condenses this focus. The proximate cause of Concentration is Happiness! The resulting effect of Concentration is Knowledge & Vision! Concentration comes in increasing grades of intensity: 1: Momentary concentration with few seconds of one-pointedness. 2: Preparatory concentration of longer yet still unstable quality. 3: Access concentration approaching the 1st jhana absorption. 4: Absorption concentration with fixed mental one-pointedness. Fourfold is the blessing of Concentration: 1: Sublime Happiness here & now through the 4 absorptions. 2: Assured Knowledge & True Vision of things as they really are. 3: Awareness & Clear Comprehension of all transient phenomena. 4: Ceasing of all mental fermentation by absence of clinging. D33 The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (Ä?sava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Concentration Link to Awakening based on seclusion, based on disillusion, based on ceasing, culminating in renouncing relinquishment, then neither can mental fermentation, nor any fever, nor any discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one whose body is calm and who enjoys a pleasurable happiness the mind becomes concentrated. The Concentration Link to Awakening arises right there. He develops it, and for him repeatedly meditating it goes gradually to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] Further inspirations on the condensing quality of Concentration: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Feeding_Concentration.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Concentration.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Requisites_for_Jhana_Absorption.htm Solidified Bliss is Mental Absorption! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ... #84111 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - I jonoabb Hi Alex Alex wrote: > Hi Jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > >> I took this to mean that not considering "self" in the >> aggregates was something that could be understood or >> achieved by intellectual study. If so, this would mean >> it did not require developed panna (i.e., of the level >> of insight). > > It appears that it is possible intellectually (although I suspect > that certain level of Samadhi was developing if not in this life, > then in the previous lives). You seem to be saying that (a) it's possible for the non-self characteristic to be seen by intellectual study only, and (b) it is by means of developed samadhi that this characteristic is seen. I'd be interested to know the textual basis for this. (To my understanding, the characteristic of "non-self" can only be seen by developed panna that directly experiences a presently arisen dhamma.) >> The intellectual study can only help one understand >> that we *do* take things for "self" and that this >> is because of accumulated wrong view. > > True. This is why PRACTICE is required, to decondition the reflex of > re-acting and responding AS IF there is a self. The need for panna beyond the level of intellectual understanding is not in dispute. It is thus a question of how such panna is developed. What is your understanding of the "practice" you refer to here? (The rest of your post, which I have snipped for now, contains some comments about jhana, and I'll reply to these separately.) Jon #84112 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II jonoabb Hi Alex Continuing my reply to your message, dealing with your comments about jhana. Alex wrote: > Hi Jon, > > ... >> So that's why I said in my previous post that it all has to begin >> with the understanding of dhammas such as seeing and visible object. >> > > And Jhana DOES require a good understanding of Dhammas. > Jhana can be developed by a person who has not heard the teaching of a Buddha. So it does not require any understanding of, for example, the non-self characteristic of dhammas. It requires understanding at the level of knowing kusala from akusala, to a very fine degree. The understanding of dhammas such as seeing and visible object is part of the teaching of a Buddha that is not found outside the dispensation. It cannot be developed as part of the development of mundane jhana. >>> This is why Meditation (Jhana) is an absolute MUST, to see the >>> process of DO unfolding without a self. >> As I see it, seeing DO is a function of developed panna, that is to >> say, the panna that is mundane insight. >> > > Direct seeing DO is what a sotapanna has, thus how can it > be "Mundane"? The point we were discussing was whether or not seeing DO was a function of jhana, as you had suggested in a previous post. Clearly, it is not. It is a function of panna. (If you are now saying that seeing DO is exclusive to the sotapanna and above, then even less so could it be a function of jhana.) >> It is not clear to me therefore why >> you say that jhana is a must. >> > > While you are in Jhana your hindrances do not hinder the observation > of impersonal process ONE BY ONE AS IT OCCURS. MN111. > > Furthermore Jhana INCREASES YOUR MINDFULNESS AND OBSERVATION POWER > needed for awakening. Well these points are debatable and, in any event, they do not answer the question of why (as you say) jhana is a *must*. (I think in a post to James you've since stated a different view ;-)) >> But in any event, the direct seeing of DO is, I believe, a fairly >> advanced part of the development of insight. > > Leading to Stream or further. > > >> Are you referring to jhana again? To my understanding, it is the >> development of insight, rather than the attainment of jhana, that >> lessens the accumulated tendencies for akusala. > > Jhana depends on a certain level of insight. There is no Jhana > without insight, no wisdom without Jhana. Who has them both is close > to Nibbana. Dhammapada. > You seem to be saying here that insight (as taught by the Buddha) is a prerequisite for the development of mundane jhana. That clearly is not the case. To my understanding, the jhana referred to in the Dhammapada verse is lokuttara jhana, that is to say, the samma-samadhi that arises with magga citta. >> But perhaps you are suggesting it's a case of jhana being required >> in order for insight to be developed (another idea with which I >> disagree ;-))? >> > > It is certainly a must for Anagami stage. If you can't let go of 5 > hindrances and have superpower mindfulness, then how can you reach > Anagamiship or Arahatship? :) > > ---- > The Lion Roar text iii, 414, Vi, vi, 64 > > Thus, verily, monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the > no-whither way. > Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo > --- > I don't know of any text that says that mundane jhana is a pre-requisite for the magga citta of the Anagami. And I don't see why it should be: once stream-entry has been attained, the subsequent attainment of Anagamiship is assured. Jon #84113 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - I truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex > > Alex wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > > wrote: > > > >> I took this to mean that not considering "self" in the > >> aggregates was something that could be understood or > >> achieved by intellectual study. If so, this would mean > >> it did not require developed panna (i.e., of the level > >> of insight). > > > > It appears that it is possible intellectually (although I suspect > > that certain level of Samadhi was developing if not in this life, > > then in the previous lives). > > You seem to be saying that (a) it's possible for the non-self > characteristic to be seen by intellectual study only, and (b) it is by > means of developed samadhi that this characteristic is seen. > > I'd be interested to know the textual basis for this. > No further looking than the famous Anattalakkhana sutta. "Intellectul" study here for ascetics was hearing the sutta. The practical aspect was done before (meditation perhaps) and after, when this intellectual knowledge (in this case through ear medium) was put into action. > (To my understanding, the characteristic of "non-self" can only be seen by developed panna that directly experiences a presently arisen dhamma.) > Yes, this is a higher aspect. Merely hearing is NOT enough. However those who DO possess Jhana, have superpower mindfulness to really be able to observe presently arisen dhammas. > > The need for panna beyond the level of intellectual understanding is not > in dispute. It is thus a question of how such panna is developed. > Do I need to quote that famous Dhp verse, "no wisdom without Jhana... "? > What is your understanding of the "practice" you refer to here? > Noble 8Fold path of course, culminating the the Jhanas, the CROWN of the path. In DN33 (or 34) and some other suttas, the 7 factors of N8P are for 8th, 4 Jhanas. Lots of Metta, Alex #84114 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Larry) - In a message dated 3/16/2008 3:13:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Larry In a message dated 3/15/2008 10:26:00 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Insight isn't restricted to the present moment but present experience is where we live and therefore is where insight begins and ends. ................................................... NEW TG: Well, this is why I posted the Buddha's teaching. It doesn't jibe with what you've written above. Well, actually, looking at you're above sentence, it has an internal contradiction so its a bit cloudy what you mean. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps what Larry means is one or both of two things: 1) Insight can occur at any time - it may have occurred in the past, it may occur right now, and it may occur in the future, but at any time insight (or anything else for that matter) occurs, that time is, right then, the present, and 2) Insight, besides applying to an actually present phenomenon, may also apply to anything that is being thought about, including anything merely imagined, recalled, or anticipated, but the occurrence of the insight is always a present-time occurrence. ------------------------------------------------- ...................................................... Desire desires what is not present and clinging tries to hold on to what is present. Insight penetrates that evasion of the present. ........................................................... NEW TG: Interesting distinction you are making between desiring the non-present and clinging to the present. But I don't agree and I don't know where you come up with this. Same holds for you last sentence below. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Desire is the wanting of the future occurrence (or nonoccurrence) of an anticipated, imagined, or hoped-for event. Often it is for the repetition (or the non-repetition) of what is actually presently occurring. But even when related to what is presently occurring, by the very fact of its "looking towards the future," it must be based on thinking - though the thinking might well be subtle and subliminal. Clinging may either be to what is presently occurring, or to what is presently thought about in any fashion, including being recalled, imagined, fantasized about, or anticipated (with fondness or the opposite). Clinging doesn't just *hold onto* what is present, though. It may be "for" or "against". Clinging, as I see it, is a habituated reaction of attachment to a category of experience - a reaction that is activated in response to the direct experience of any instance of that type of phenomenon or to any thinking that pertains to that category of phenomena. Clinging is a kind of hardened, habituated tendency to respond obsessively (to some degree or other, and either positively or negatively) to phenomena of a particular type. It grows out of, and then in turn reinforces, repeated instances of tanha for the presence or absence of phenomena of that type. --------------------------------------------------------- Take care. TG ........................................................ I agree that there is an element of inference in insight but the point is that we cling to conceptual understanding (ditthi) and let go of insight (pa~n~naa). Larry =============================== With metta, Howard #84115 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II truth_aerator Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex > Jhana can be developed by a person who has not heard the teaching of a Buddha. So it does not require any understanding of, for example, the non-self characteristic of dhammas. >>>> TRUE. But if such Jhana master HEARS Buddha's discourse, then s/he could instantly achieve Arahatship (or less depending on accumulations). > It cannot be developed as part of the development of mundane jhana. ><<< All 8 Jhanas are mundane. But they CAN and SHOULD be USED as part of Buddha's path. > The point we were discussing was whether or not seeing DO was a function of jhana, as you had suggested in a previous post. >>>> How Jhana helps? 1st) Hindrance free observation of presently arisen phenomenon 2nd) The mind is mindful, attentive, bright, pliant, not distracted, etc. MN111 provides some details. In the Jhana: There is vinnana-nama-rupa -> salayatana -> phassa -> vedana -> Tanha One keeps observing how these (and possibly more) links work and how mind reacts to them to create or not additional suffering. ---- Besides, if we literally read what stream entry means, then a stream enterer possesses noble 8 fold path which INCLUDES 4 JHANAS. > > (If you are now saying that seeing DO is exclusive to the sotapanna and above, then even less so could it be a function of jhana.) >>>> Seeing Vs Speculating thing. Seeing is much more powerful and much more capable for Awakening. The seeing, however, must be without any blind spots and without any hindrances - something that Jhana deals with. > > Well these points are debatable and, in any event, they do not answer > the question of why (as you say) jhana is a *must*. > > (I think in a post to James you've since stated a different view ;- )) >>> Can you explain please? > > >> But in any event, the direct seeing of DO is, I believe, a fairly >> advanced part of the development of insight. > > > > Leading to Stream or further. > > > > > >> Are you referring to jhana again? To my understanding, it is the development of insight, rather than the attainment of jhana, that > >> lessens the accumulated tendencies for akusala. > > Insight boosted by the data provided by Jhana is what can launch one into outer space, so to say. :) >>> > You seem to be saying here that insight (as taught by the Buddha) s a prerequisite for the development of mundane jhana. That clearly is not the case. >>>> In a certain way yes. One needs to be able to let go of pubs and strip clubs in order to be able to seclude oneself from unwholesome states and enter the Jhana. Most people simply don't see the benefit of Jhana and prefer to watch "sunday night live" instead. >>> > To my understanding, the jhana referred to in the Dhammapada verse is lokuttara jhana, that is to say, the samma-samadhi that arises with magga citta. >>> Where in the suttas does the Buddha talk about Lokuttara Jhana? > > >> But perhaps you are suggesting it's a case of jhana being required > >> in order for insight to be developed (another idea with which I > >> disagree ;-))? > >> > > Yes Jhana is required for DEEP insight. Look, if you can't let go off 5 hindrances than what insight can we talk about? > > It is certainly a must for Anagami stage. If you can't let go of 5 > > hindrances and have superpower mindfulness, then how can you reach > > Anagamiship or Arahatship? :) > > > > ---- > > The Lion Roar text iii, 414, Vi, vi, 64 > > > > Thus, verily, monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the > > no-whither way. > > Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo > > --- > > > > I don't know of any text that says that mundane jhana is a pre- requisite for the magga citta of the Anagami. And I don't see why it should be: >>> You are avoiding Buddha's message: > > The Lion Roar text iii, 414, Vi, vi, 64 Thus, verily, monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the no-whither way. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It says so in the suttas. AN 3.85 & 9.12, not to mention that one of the reason why Anagamins don't have lust/aversion toward KamaLoka is because they have developed and mastered Jhanas (rupa & arupa loka) and throught DIRECT experience know what is better. > once stream-entry has been attained, the subsequent attainment of > Anagamiship is assured. > > Jon > Because then one would follow the N8P path which includes 4 Jhanas. :) Lots of Metta, Alex #84116 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive lbidd2 Hi TG and Howard, Insight into the past, future, or other can only be for the purpose of penetrating present desire for, and clinging to, the past, future, or other. Otherwise, what good is it? Do we want to change our past or future understanding, or simply change our present understanding of them? As regards the distinction between desire and clinging, I found it in Vism. and it makes sense to me. There is no reason to desire if we already have what we desire and in clinging to sense objects and views, particularly self view, we like to think we have these objects, they are mine, they are lasting and substantial. We are trying to hold on to the present. No doubt your contradiction sensor will ask what about clinging to the past, present, or other. How is that holding on to the present? It is holding on to a present memory or projection, something we own. Regarding your objection to the distinction between clinging to conceptual understanding and letting go of insight, perhaps I should have said letting go _in_ insight. Certainly we cling to views of all kinds. Views are conceptual and there is an element of concept in insight. The difference is that in one we cling and are bound to suffering, while in the other there is release from clinging and suffering because it (insight) is intimately tied to the fleeting, insubstantial present. We infer the nature of past, future, and other by way of understanding present experience. That inference can be "direct" if it directly penetrates present clinging. But since my previous email didn't make sense, this one probably won't either. It's even difficult for me to follow. Maybe you and Howard could expand on your own views on insight, inference, and wrong views in your own words. I'm interested in how you see it. Larry #84117 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:00 am Subject: Direct Knowledge & Inference are Mutually Supportive - Through Jhanic experience truth_aerator Dear All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi TG and Howard, > > Insight into the past, future, or other can only be for the purpose of penetrating present desire for, and clinging to, the past, future, or other. Otherwise, what good is it? Do we want to change our past or future understanding, or simply change our present understanding of them? > One of the MOST FREQUENT paths towards Arahatship involves getting into 4th Jhana: Recollecting one's past lives (and seeing that we had almost everything in every quanitity - except for Pure abodes & NIbbana). This is 1st insight. The meditators SEES that what is the use to go after present "toys" if s/he had them all before? SEEING the workings of kamma and how it leads to renewed rebirth. This is future application of 1st insight. Then on SEES Dependent Origination fully and becomes an Arahant with fully shedding ALL self tendencies. So in this way it describes very well the true Insight into Past, Present and Future. --- Suffering (dukkha), Faith (saddha), Joy (pamojja), Rapture (piti), Tranquility (passaddhi), Happiness (sukha), Concentration (samadhi), Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana), Disenchantment (nibbida), Dispassion (viraga), Emancipation (vimutti), Knowledge of destruction of the cankers (asavakkhaye ñana) Upanisa Sutta Notice the Samadhi (5 Jhanas) is prerequisite of seeing things as they are. --- 1) Conscience & concern 2) Purity of conduct 3)Restraint of the senses 4) Moderation in eating 5) Wakefulness 6)Mindfulness & alertness 7) Abandoning the hindrances 8) The four jhanas 9) The three knowledges http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html DN# 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 (and more suttas.) ---- Also what does PannaVimmuta means? It is an Arahant who possesses ALL 9 Jhanas. --*-- [Udayin:] "'Released through discernment, released through discernment,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released through discernment?" [Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel. "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel. "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment without a sequel." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html --- It is wishful thinking that one doesn't need Jhanas!! Even the one who is liberated by wisdom requires Jhanas (maybe even all 9)! Lots of Metta, Alex #84118 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 3/16/2008 7:22:30 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, TG (and Larry) - In a message dated 3/16/2008 3:13:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) writes: Hi Larry In a message dated 3/15/2008 10:26:00 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, _LBIDD@..._ (mailto:LBIDD@...) writes: Insight isn't restricted to the present moment but present experience is where we live and therefore is where insight begins and ends. ................................................... NEW TG: Well, this is why I posted the Buddha's teaching. It doesn't jibe with what you've written above. Well, actually, looking at you're above sentence, it has an internal contradiction so its a bit cloudy what you mean. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps what Larry means is one or both of two things: 1) Insight can occur at any time - it may have occurred in the past, it may occur right now, and it may occur in the future, but at any time insight (or anything else for that matter) occurs, that time is, right then, the present, and 2) Insight, besides applying to an actually present phenomenon, may also apply to anything that is being thought about, including anything merely imagined, recalled, or anticipated, but the occurrence of the insight is always a present-time occurrence. ------------------------------------------------- ................................................................ NEW TG: I agree with what you wrote about the occurrences of insight. I don't know if that was Larry's position or not. It may well have been. Your last sentence is very clear and well put. ........................................................................... ...................................................... Desire desires what is not present and clinging tries to hold on to what is present. Insight penetrates that evasion of the present. ........................................................... NEW TG: Interesting distinction you are making between desiring the non-present and clinging to the present. But I don't agree and I don't know where you come up with this. Same holds for you last sentence below. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Desire is the wanting of the future occurrence (or nonoccurrence) of an anticipated, imagined, or hoped-for event. Often it is for the repetition (or the non-repetition) of what is actually presently occurring. But even when related to what is presently occurring, by the very fact of its "looking towards the future," it must be based on thinking - though the thinking might well be subtle and subliminal. ...................................................... NEW TG: I think desire can desire things of the past, present, or future. The above I think is a little bit too focused on the future for my tastes. But its very reasonable. ......................................................... Clinging may either be to what is presently occurring, or to what is presently thought about in any fashion, including being recalled, imagined, fantasized about, or anticipated (with fondness or the opposite). Clinging doesn't just *hold onto* what is present, though. It may be "for" or "against". Clinging, as I see it, is a habituated reaction of attachment to a category of experience - a reaction that is activated in response to the direct experience of any instance of that type of phenomenon or to any thinking that pertains to that category of phenomena. Clinging is a kind of hardened, habituated tendency to respond obsessively (to some degree or other, and either positively or negatively) to phenomena of a particular type. It grows out of, and then in turn reinforces, repeated instances of tanha for the presence or absence of phenomena of that type. .................................................... NEW TG: Yea, this is good. If you look at your first sentence on clinging, it seems "desire" would fit right in and work just as well. Anyway, I agree about the habitual quality of clinging and the reinforcing qualities of clinging/craving. TG OUT ............................................................ --------------------------------------------------------- Take care. TG ........................................................ I agree that there is an element of inference in insight but the point is that we cling to conceptual understanding (ditthi) and let go of insight (pa~n~naa). Larry =============================== With metta, Howard #84119 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Larry (Howard) I thought this was an excellent e-mail of yours. I could understand most everything and agree with almost everything. I just have one picky comment below... In a message dated 3/16/2008 9:45:50 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi TG and Howard, Insight into the past, future, or other can only be for the purpose of penetrating present desire for, and clinging to, the past, future, or other. Otherwise, what good is it? Do we want to change our past or future understanding, or simply change our present understanding of them? As regards the distinction between desire and clinging, I found it in Vism. and it makes sense to me. There is no reason to desire if we already have what we desire and in clinging to sense objects and views, particularly self view, we like to think we have these objects, they are mine, they are lasting and substantial. We are trying to hold on to the present. No doubt your contradiction sensor will ask what about clinging to the past, present, or other. How is that holding on to the present? It is holding on to a present memory or projection, something we own. Regarding your objection to the distinction between clinging to conceptual understanding and letting go of insight, perhaps I should have said letting go _in_ insight. Certainly we cling to views of all kinds. Views are conceptual and there is an element of concept in insight. The difference is that in one we cling and are bound to suffering, while in the other there is release from clinging and suffering because it (insight) is intimately tied to the fleeting, insubstantial present. We infer the nature of past, future, and other by way of understanding present experience. ............................................. NEW TG: I would also add that by reflecting on what has happened in the past, we are able to apply inference in helping to understand what is happening in the present (and vice veras). Then, combining those two, we are able to infer what will happen in the future... thereby understanding the principles and futility of "the conditioned world." TG OUT ................................................. That inference can be "direct" if it directly penetrates present clinging. But since my previous email didn't make sense, this one probably won't either. It's even difficult for me to follow. Maybe you and Howard could expand on your own views on insight, inference, and wrong views in your own words. I'm interested in how you see it. Larry #84120 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (24) nilovg Dear Han, Op 16-mrt-2008, om 8:00 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: If a person follows the above requisite > conditions, I am sure he will be able to develop the > Predominant investigation (viimamsaadhipati). ------ N: I like your quotes, and among these asking questions: Discussions sure help and make us consider the Dhamma more for ourselves. As Kh Sujin often says, understanding has to become our own. I am not inclined to think that especially the condition of conascent predominance of investigation is to be developed, because sometimes, as we have seen, this one operates, sometimes another one. When we intend to develop kusala and understanding, it does not matter whether chanda is predominant, viriya, citta or vimamsa. These conditions just operate without anybody intending to develop a particular one. Nina. #84121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive nilovg Hi TG, Op 15-mrt-2008, om 21:06 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > "Any kind of form whatsoever ... any kind of feeling whatsoever ... > any kind > of perception whatsoever ... any kind of volitional formations > whatsoever > ... any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or > present, > internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or > near -- one > sees all [of these] as it really is with correct wisdom thus: This > is not > mine, this I am not, this is not my self. When one knows and sees > thus, bhikkhu, > then in regard to this body with consciousness and in regard to all > external > signs, I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to > conceit no > longer occur within." > > > So the Buddha demonstrates various ways to see the 5 Aggregates in > order to > "view them properly" and to utilize them as insight to overcome > attachment.... > > > 1) Past, future, or present ... Of these three, only one has the > possibility > of "direct knowledge." The other two are certainly inference. ------ N: What does it say? The khandhas, nama and rupa, are arising and falling away. Through insight this can be directly realized. > > > TG: 2) Internal or external ... Only one of these two has the > possibility of > being direct knowledge. The other inference. ------ N: We have to study each of these notions. I take rupakkhandha as an example: The Visuddhimagga Ch XIV explains them: As to the words of the Visuddhimagga, ‘The division into 'internal and external' is as already stated (par.73), we read in Vis. Ch XIV, 73: < Herein, the five kinds beginning with the eye are 'internal' because they occur as an integral part of the selfhood (in oneself); the rest are 'external' because they are external to that selfhood (personality).> ------- The Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 231) states : ----- As to the words of the Visuddhimagga: , the Tiika explains that this is stated according to the Suttanta method. Here the text refers to ‘one’s own’ and another person in the conventional sense. Thus not according to the Abhidhamma method, that is, by way of paramattha dhammas. -------- N: By way of paramattha dhammas: the internal aayatanas: the ey, ear, etc. Can be objects of insight. --------- > TG: 3) Subtle or gross, inferior or superior ... These four could > be either > direct knowledge or inference. -------- N: As to gross and subtle, the Vis. 73 states: -------- N: The five senses and the sense objects that impinge on them are gross. Tangible object includes the three great elements of earth or solidity, fire or heat and wind or motion. Thus, twelve kinds of ruupas are gross. The other kinds of ruupa are subtle. The subtle ruupas are more difficult to penetrate than the gross ruupas. ------ As to feeling: Text Vis. 197. In the classification (i)-(iii) into 'past', etc., the past, future, and present state of feeling should be understood according to continuity and according to moment and so on. --------- N: Feeling is naama, and as the Tiika states, naama is quick to change (lahuparivattino aruupadhammaa). There is a great variety of feelings and these have been classified according to their nature. There are happy feeling, unhappy feeling and indifferent feeling. Feeling can be bodily or mental. --------- Text Vis.:Herein, 'according to continuity', that included in a single cognitive series, a single impulsion, a single attainment, and that occurring in association with an objective field of one kind[77], is 'present'. Before that is 'past'. Subsequent is 'future'. -------- --------------------------- I cnnot continue with all the khandhas, but anyway: insight is not thinking, not inference. it is direct understanding of any reality presenting itself through one doorway at a time. Nina. #84122 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:07 pm Subject: Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear TG, SN22 82(10) Pu~n~namaasutta.m "Any kind of form whatsoever ... any kind of feeling whatsoever ... any kind of perception whatsoever ... any kind of volitional formations whatsoever... any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near -- one sees all [of these] as it really is with correct wisdom thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self. When one knows and sees thus, bhikkhu, then in regard to this body with consciousness and in regard to all external signs, I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit no longer occur within." "...Evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati, yaa vedanaa atiitaanaagata paccuppannaa ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa sabba.m vedana.m neta.m mama neso'hamasmi na me'so attaa"ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati, yaa kaaci sa~n~naa atiitaanaagata paccuppannaa ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa sabba.m sa~n~na.m neta.m mama neso'hamasmi na me'so attaa"ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati, ye keci sa"nkhaaraa atiitaanaagata paccuppannaa ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa sabba.m sa"nkhaara.m neta.m mama neso'hamasmi na me'so attaa"ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati, ya.m ki~nci vi~n~naa.na.m atiitaanaagata paccuppanna.m ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa sabba.m vi~n~naa.na.m neta.m mama neso'hamasmi na me'so attaa"ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati, eva.m kho bhikkhu, jaanato eva.m passato imasmi~nca savi~n~naa.nake kaaye bahiddhaa ca sabbanimittesu abhi.mkaaramami.mkaara maanaanussaa na hontiiti." TG: "So the Buddha demonstrates various ways to see the 5 Aggregates in order to 'view them properly' and to utilize them as insight to overcome attachment...So 11 ways to insightfully realize how the 5 Aggregates 'really are.' According to the Buddha. Only Two of the Eleven are definitely Direct Knowledge insights. Four of them are definitely not direct Knowledge insights. And the others could be included in either or both categories." Scott: As shown in the Paa.li, the operative phrase in the passaage seems to me to be 'yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati'. Consider the meanings of the various constituents of the these compounds and verbs: PTS PED: "Yathaabhuuta(.m) in reality, in truth, really, definitely, absolutely; as ought to be, truthfully, in its real essence..." "Sammaa (indecl.)...thoroughly, properly, rightly; in the right way, as it ought to be, best, perfectly.." "Pa~n~naaya (indecl.) [ger. of pajaanaati...] understanding fully, knowing well, realising, in full recognition, in thorough realisation or understanding. Used most frequently with yathaabhuuta.m..." "Passati ...1. to see...2. to recognise, realise, know: only in combn with jaanaati (pres. jaanaati passati...)" Scott: The phrase 'yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati' relates only to the penetrative function of pa~n~naa as far as I can tell; and further, seems to deal only with 'absolutes' or 'real essence'. TG: "My point is that -- both Direct Knowledge's and Inferential Knowledge's support each other and they are both crucial to the development of overcoming suffering. The idea that insight is limited to "knowing present realities" is absurd. I don't know how many hundreds or thousands of Suttas would contradict that notion. But it would certainly be in at least 'the hundreds.'" Scott: I don't see where there is any mention of 'inferential knowledge in the Paa.li text of the passage given. I may have missed this though. Sincerely, Scott. #84123 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (24) hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: I am not inclined to think that especially the condition of conascent predominance of investigation is to be developed, because sometimes, as we have seen, this one operates, sometimes another one. When we intend to develop kusala and understanding, it does not matter whether chanda is predominant, viriya, citta or vimamsa. These conditions just operate without anybody intending to develop a particular one. Han: Your above comment is well taken. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #84124 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (24) - a question hantun1 Dear Nina, I have already accepted your following remarks in my last post. > Nina: I am not inclined to think that especially the condition of conascent predominance of investigation is to be developed, because sometimes, as we have seen, this one operates, sometimes another one. When we intend to develop kusala and understanding, it does not matter whether chanda is predominant, viriya, citta or vimamsa. These conditions just operate without anybody intending to develop a particular one. Han: But on second thought, I have a question, please. Question: Does it also mean that we do not have to develop the Perfection of Wisdom as such? If we develop kusala and understanding, the Perfection of Wisdom may develop as the case may be, without our intending to develop the Perfection of Wisdom? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #84125 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau Hi all, Sorry for yet another delay. I have done some revision and feel a bit more familiar with the subject than I was before. Probably not ready for a test, though. :-) This time I'll just present paragraphs 6 and 7 and leave comments to someone else (Larry?) for now. (Notice the new sub-heading): [INSIGHT. COMPREHENSION BY GROUPS] 6. Here is the text: 'How is it that understanding of defining past, future and present states by summarisation is knowledge of comprehension? 'Any materiality whatever, whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near - he defines all materiality as impermanent: this is one kind of comprehension. Any feeling whatever, . . . . . Any perception whatever, . . . . . Any formations whatever, . . . . . Any consciousness whatever, . . . . . - he defines all consciousness as impermanent. He defines it as not self: this is one kind of comprehension. The eye, . . . (etc.) . . . 'ageing-and-death, whether past present or future, he defines as impermanent: this is one kind of comprehension. He defines it as painful: this is one kind of comprehension. He defines it as not self: this is one kind of comprehension. 7. 'Understanding of defining by summarisation thus "Materiality whether past, present or future is impermanent in the sense of destruction, painful in the sense of terror, not self in the sense of having no core" is knowledge of comprehension. Understanding by generalisation thus "Feeling . . . [608] (etc.) . . . Consciousness . . . Eye . . . (etc.) ageing and death, whether past . . . " is knowledge of comprehension. 'Understanding of defining by summarisation thus "Materiality, whether past present or future is formed, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, subject to fall, subject to fading away, subject to cessation" is knowledge of comprehension. Understanding of defining by generalisation thus "Feeling . . . (etc.) . . . Consciousness . . .Eye . . .(etc.) ageing and death whether past future or present is impermanent, formed, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, subject to fall, subject to fading away, subject to cessation" is knowledge of comprehension.' Ken H #84126 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Nina In a message dated 3/16/2008 1:53:45 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi TG, Op 15-mrt-2008, om 21:06 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > "Any kind of form whatsoever ... any kind of feeling whatsoever ... > any kind > of perception whatsoever ... any kind of volitional formations > whatsoever > ... any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or > present, > internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or > near -- one > sees all [of these] as it really is with correct wisdom thus: This > is not > mine, this I am not, this is not my self. When one knows and sees > thus, bhikkhu, > then in regard to this body with consciousness and in regard to all > external > signs, I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to > conceit no > longer occur within." > > > So the Buddha demonstrates various ways to see the 5 Aggregates in > order to > "view them properly" and to utilize them as insight to overcome > attachment.... > > > 1) Past, future, or present ... Of these three, only one has the > possibility > of "direct knowledge." The other two are certainly inference. ------ N: What does it say? The khandhas, nama and rupa, are arising and falling away. Through insight this can be directly realized. > .............................................................. New TG: Actually, it doesn't say that at all. And this is not AT issue or not even THE issue. 20 different Buddhists with 20 different inclinations would see 20 different main issues with almost any Sutta. You see EVERY Sutta as saying the same thing...."the Buddha teaching us to know ultimate realities with their own characteristics." That's your preference and interpretive inference. I happen to think no Suttas say that. And in a literal sense, I believe that is indisputably correct. ............................................................. > > TG: 2) Internal or external ... Only one of these two has the > possibility of > being direct knowledge. The other inference. ------ N: We have to study each of these notions. I take rupakkhandha as an example: The Visuddhimagga Ch XIV explains them: As to the words of the Visuddhimagga, ‘The division into 'internal and external' is as already stated (par.73), we read in Vis. Ch XIV, 73: < Herein, the five kinds beginning with the eye are 'internal' because they occur as an integral part of the selfhood (in oneself); the rest are 'external' because they are external to that selfhood (personality).> ------- The Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 231) states : ----- As to the words of the Visuddhimagga: , the Tiika explains that this is stated according to the Suttanta method. Here the text refers to ‘one’s own’ and another person in the conventional sense. Thus not according to the Abhidhamma method, that is, by way of paramattha dhammas. -------- N: By way of paramattha dhammas: the internal aayatanas: the ey, ear, etc. Can be objects of insight. --------- ................................................. NEW TG: Sorry Nina, I don't see any of this having anything to do with the topic at issue. ......................................................... > TG: 3) Subtle or gross, inferior or superior ... These four could > be either > direct knowledge or inference. -------- N: As to gross and subtle, the Vis. 73 states: -------- N: The five senses and the sense objects that impinge on them are gross. Tangible object includes the three great elements of earth or solidity, fire or heat and wind or motion. Thus, twelve kinds of ruupas are gross. The other kinds of ruupa are subtle. The subtle ruupas are more difficult to penetrate than the gross ruupas. ------ As to feeling: Text Vis. 197. In the classification (i)-(iii) into 'past', etc., the past, future, and present state of feeling should be understood according to continuity and according to moment and so on. --------- N: Feeling is naama, and as the Tiika states, naama is quick to change (lahuparivattino aruupadhammaa). There is a great variety of feelings and these have been classified according to their nature. There are happy feeling, unhappy feeling and indifferent feeling. Feeling can be bodily or mental. --------- Text Vis.:Herein, 'according to continuity', that included in a single cognitive series, a single impulsion, a single attainment, and that occurring in association with an objective field of one kind[77], is 'present'. Before that is 'past'. Subsequent is 'future'. -------- --------------------------- I cnnot continue with all the khandhas, but anyway: insight is not thinking, not inference. it is direct understanding of any reality presenting itself through one doorway at a time. Nina. ........................................................ NEW TG: These definitions seem irrelevant to the issue at hand. Your case seems to have nothing to it, that could back up your summary conclusion, which denies inference as part of insight cultivation. I provide Sutta after Sutta after Sutta demonstrating the opposite. You generally do not deal with the Suttas directly, but redirect your arguments to commentaries...which above seem more like distractions than evidence that would support your position. From my point of view, I think this "techno-Buddhism" misses the point and heart of the Buddha's teaching and I am very doubtful that this -- "realities with their own characteristics" approach would provide the motivation necessary to detach the mind from conditionality. Since those who subscribe to this approach seem to think enlightenment is near impossible in any nearby lifetime, maybe they are right (and me too.) Anyway, Its interesting to see what you'll come up with. TG #84127 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 3/16/2008 3:07:43 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, SN22 82(10) Pu~n~namaasutta.S "Any kind of form whatsoever ... any kind of feeling whatsoever ... any kind of perception whatsoever ... any kind of volitional formations whatsoever..formations whatsoever... any kind of consc past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near -- one sees all [of these] as it really is with correct wisdom thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self. When one knows and sees thus, bhikkhu, then in regard to this body with consciousness and in regard to all external signs, I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit no longer occur within." "...Evameta."...Evameta.m "...Evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati, atiitaanaagata paccuppannaa ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa sabba.m sa~n~na.m neta.m mama neso'hamasmi na me'so attaa"ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati, y atiitaanaagata paccuppannaa ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa sabba.m sa"nkhaara.m neta.m mama neso'hamasmi na me'so attaa"ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~ vi~n~naa.na.vi~n~naa.na.m atiitaanaagatavi~n~naa.na.m atiitaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa sabba.m vi~n~naa.na.duure santike vaa sabba.m me'so attaa"ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.me'so attaa"ti evameta.m eva.m kho bhikkhu, jaanato eva.m passato imasmi~nca savi~n~naa.nake kaaye bahiddhaa ca sabbanimittesu abhi.mkaaramami.kaaye bahiddhaa ca na hontiiti." TG: "So the Buddha demonstrates various ways to see the 5 Aggregates in order to 'view them properly' and to utilize them as insight to overcome attachment..overcome attachment...So 11 ways to Aggregates 'really are.' According to the Buddha. Only Two of the Eleven are definitely Direct Knowledge insights. Four of them are definitely not direct Knowledge insights. And the others could be included in either or both categories." Scott: As shown in the Paa.li, the operative phrase in the passaage seems to me to be 'yathaabhuuta.seems to me to be 'yathaabhuuta.m sa the meanings of the various constituents of the these compounds and verbs: PTS PED: "Yathaabhuuta("Yathaabhuuta(.m) in reality, in truth, absolutely; as ought to be, truthfully, in its real essence..." "Sammaa (indecl.)..."Sammaa (indecl.)...thoroughly, properly, r as it ought to be, best, perfectly.." "Pa~n~naaya (indecl.) [ger. of pajaanaati.."Pa~n~naaya (indecl.) [ger. knowing well, realising, in full recognition, in thorough realisation or understanding. Used most frequently with yathaabhuuta.or un "Passati ...1. to see...2. to recognise, realise, know: only in combn with jaanaati (pres. jaanaati passati...)" Scott: The phrase 'yathaabhuuta.Scott: The phrase 'yathaabhuuta.m only to the penetrative function of pa~n~naa as far as I can tell; and further, seems to deal only with 'absolutes' or 'real essence'. TG: "My point is that -- both Direct Knowledge's and Inferential Knowledge's support each other and they are both crucial to the development of overcoming suffering. The idea that insight is limited to "knowing present realities" is absurd. I don't know how many hundreds or thousands of Suttas would contradict that notion. But it would certainly be in at least 'the hundreds.'" Scott: I don't see where there is any mention of 'inferential knowledge in the Paa.li text of the passage given. I may have missed this though. .......................................................... NEW TG: "Seeing" Past, Future, External, or Far Khandas, as they really are, would require inference would it not? Isn't the point the Buddha's making about "seeing" the "principles" of "conditionality"? Such "seeing" is both inferential and direct. This is the point I'm making. Now, If I'm wrong, could you explain how the mind can directly know "realities" of the past, future, far, or external khandhas, unless it is "in principle," and not merely through direct experience??? (You could just "cut to the chase" and let me know how you could experience "future" khandas directly in the present?) And if not, maybe we could revisit the idea of these "knowledge's/insights" having to do with inference even if you didn't see the term in the Pali. Thanks. TG OUT Sincerely, Scott. #84128 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive lbidd2 Hi TG, TG: "I would also add that by reflecting on what has happened in the past, we are able to apply inference in helping to understand what is happening in the present (and vice versa). Then, combining those two, we are able to infer what will happen in the future... thereby understanding the principles and futility of "the conditioned world." " Larry: Okay, I'll buy it. Understanding the present by understanding the past. "Futility" is a good word. There is relinquishment but not hatred. If there is some form of hatred then there can't be insight. I think this recognition of futility must also be in some way, literally, 'en-lightening'. Larry #84129 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Ken, Here is the key to understanding these three paragraphs (let's include paragraph 8): the words "Here is the text:". These three paragraphs are a quote from the "Patisambhidamagga" book 1, bracketed page [53], which coincidentally is on page 53 in the translation. You probably won't be able to figure out what is going on here without referring to the note in this book which refers the reader to a previous paragraph (in Ptsm). Since the Patisambhidhmagga is such a difficult text with many odd expressions and since we are not doing an in-depth study, let's just pick out the essential points: XX,6: "How is it that understanding of defining past, future and present states by summarisation is knowledge of comprehension? Larry: "By summarisation", translated as "by generalization" in Ptsm., refers to defining dependent arising in terms of kamma and kamma result (past cause and present result, present cause and future result) with reference to the general characteristics. For example, "formations" is a past cause so "the meditator", our ideal bhikkhu, _comprehends_ (a key term) that any past kamma formation (e.g., desire) is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not self. "Namarupa", in the dependent arising formula, is a present result, so any present eye, for example, is comprehended as impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not-self. Notice the use of "any". We are going for general characteristics and so an inclusive comprehension. The entire dependent arising formula is comprehended in this way, comprehending the general characteristics in terms of past, present, and future kamma and kamma result. An interesting expression is: XX,7. 'Understanding of defining by summarisation thus "Materiality whether past, present or future is impermanent in the sense of destruction, painful in the sense of terror, not self in the sense of having no core" is knowledge of comprehension.' Larry: I'm sure there will be more discussion of "destruction, terror, and having no core" later, so let's wait for that. That's about it. On to para. 9--> (in couple of days). Larry #84130 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Love them "dhammas" (The All and Concepts) sarahprocter... Hi TG, Thanks for your reflections on the 'All'. --- TGrand458@... wrote: > I understand "The All" to mean everything possible to human > experience<..> > Since concepts are made known/experienced, I consider them as part of > "The > All" and in the "mental phenomena" category. .... S: The Sabba Sutta is in the Salayatanavagga of SN. I believe these suttas, referring to the impermanence of the internal and external dhammas, the suffering, the non-self characteristics of the same, the knowing of the 'All', the abandoning of the 'All', the full understanding of the 'All' etc, are referring to the ayatanas, not to concepts. Concepts can only ever be thought about, never known with insight. They are not khandhas and don't have the characteristic of impermanence etc. What is translated as 'mental phenomena' is dhammaayatana. This does not include concepts. ... >The Buddha defines the > mental > aspect of "the all" as follows -- "The mind and mental phenomena and > mind-consciousness and things to be cognized by mind-consciousness." -- > Connected > Discourses pg., 1142. It is well beyond me as to how "concepts" could > be > something not "to be cognized" by mind-consciousness. .... S: When we appreciate that it is only namas and rupas or khandhas which can be directly known now, then whatever the translation, we know that the 'all' or what is to be directly understood, refers to these. .... > Two pages later, pg. 1144, the Buddha delivers two suttas telling about > > uprooting all conceiving. Which includes not conceiving the eye, > eye-consciousness, eye-contact, whatever feeling arises with eye-contact > as condition, etc. .... S: These conceivings refer to cittas arising with attachment and wrong view. .... > The so-called ultimate realities are the very things the Buddha doesn't > even > want us to conceive about., he wants us to abandon them, reject them, > and > destroy them. .... S: Yes, usually there is conceiving with attachment about what is seen and so on. "....Since he does not conceive anything thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbaana." .... >(Notice: the Buddha talks about "conceiving" seamlessly > with the > rest of his teaching. I do not ever recall him saying that conceiving > or > concepts are in another realm of phenomena all to their own. Do you?) .... S: As B.Bodhi says in his note: "Conceiving (ma~n~nanaa) is the distortional thought process governed by craving, conceit, and views.... Later, in the notes: "Spk: 'he does not conceive the eye (cakkhu.m na ma~n~nati): He does not conceive the eye as "I" or "mine," or as "another" or "another's".....etc " It is the the conceivings which are to be known and uprooted, i.e cittas with lobha. "I", "mine" and "another" cannot be known and uprooted because they do not exist, they are purely (wrongly) imagined to exist. .... > And BTW, without rejecting and abandoning "the all" it is impossible to > overcome suffering. To escape "The All" one needs to escape all of > conditionality; to reject it, to abandon it. ... S: Through understanding. " "Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering." As both the Pali in these suttas and the commentary note clarifies, it is the 3 pari~n~nas that are being referred to. These are the understandings that follow the development of the stages of insight, beginning with the clear understanding of namas and rupas. ...> > The only unconditioned I am aware of is Nibbana. Concepts do not fall > into > that category, so the only other possibility is "conditioned." ... S: Yes, by understanding the conditioned dhammas, by developing dispassion towards them, the unconditioned dhamma is realised and the defilements are eradicated in stages. This is pahana pari~n~na, full understanding as abandoning. Metta, Sarah ======= #84131 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:58 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 246 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 246. Intro: The previous sections have dealt with the order of arising and the order of abandoning of the four kinds of clinging: sense-desire clinging, [false-] view clinging, rite-and-ritual clinging and self- doctrine clinging. This section deals with the order of teaching of these kinds of clinging. --------- Text Vis. 246: Sense-desire clinging, however, is taught first among them because of the breadth of its objective field and because of its obviousness. For it has a broad objective field because it is associated with the eight kinds of consciousness ((22)-(29)). The others have a narrow objective field because they are associated with four kinds of consciousness ((22), (23), (26) and (27)). ------- N: Sense-desire clinging arises with all eight cittas rooted in lobha: four are accompanied by pleasant feeling, four by indifferent feeling. Four arise with wrong view, four without wrong view. Four are unprompted, four are prompted. One may cling with sense-desire accompanied by eternity view, taking the objects of clinging for permanent. Or one may cling to them with annihilation view, believing that they will be annihilated since one not see that they arise because of conditions. As to the three kinds of clinging that are clinging to wrong views, clinging to wrong practice and clinging to ‘self doctrine’, these arise with the four types of lobha-muulacittas accompanied by wrong view. They have a narrow objective field since these only pertain to wrong view. --------- Text Vis.: And usually it is sense-desire clinging that is obvious because of this generation's love of attachment (see M.i,167), not so the other kinds. ------- N: As to attachment, aalaya, the Tiika states that this refers to the five khandhas, the khandas of clinging. The Tiika adds that this love of attachment [N:namely to the five khandhas of clinging] is obvious both in oneself and in others. ------- Text Vis.: One possessed of sense-desire clinging is much given to display and ceremony (see M.i,265) for the purpose of attaining sense desires. ------- N: As to 'for the purpose of attaining sense desires', the Tiika adds that here sense-desire, kaama, is the basis (vatthu), namely, the objects, of sense-desire. Kaama, sense-desire, can refer to vatthu- kaama, the objects of sense-desire, as well as to kilesa-kaama, the defilement of sense-desire. Display and ceremony, kotuuhalama”ngala, this implies actually the excitement of festivals. These are the opportunity for many pleasant objects which can induce clinging. --------- Text Vis.: [False-] view clinging comes next to the [sense-desire clinging] since that [display and ceremony] is a [false-] view of his. And that is then divided in two as rite-and-ritual clinging and self-doctrine clinging. And of these two, rite-and-ritual clinging is taught first, being gross, because it can be recognized on seeing [it in the forms of] ox practice and dog practice. And self-doctrine clinging is taught last because of its subtlety. This is the 'order of teaching'. ------------------------- Conclusion: The Visuddhimagga text refers to M I, 26, The Ariyan Quest, for the obviousness of sense-desire clinging. The Buddha, after his enlightenment was for a moment disinclined to teach Dhamma: “This Dhamma won by me is deep, difficult to see, difficult to understand, tranquil, excellent, beyond dialectic, subtle, intelligible to the learned. But this is a creation [N: generation] delighting in sensual pleasure, delighted by sensual pleasure, rejoicing in sensual pleasure... this were a matter difficult to see, that is to say causal uprising by way of condition. This too were a matter difficult to see, that is to say the tranquillising of all the activities, the renunciation of all attachment, the destruction of craving, dispassion, stopping, nibbaana...” The Buddha’s teaching that leads to the end of all desire, is a teaching against the stream of common thought. If one delights in sensual pleasure one does not want to give it up. As to self-doctrine clinging, this is said to be subtle, and thus this is taught last. One usually does not notice it when there is clinging to the idea of ‘I see, I hear, I think’. It is deeply rooted and if it is not known it cannot be eradicated. ****** Nina. #84132 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Love them "dhammas" (Concepts) sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- TGrand458@... wrote: > S: No. Thinking arises and falls now, but the concepts which are > conceived > don't have the characteristic of impermanence. Impermanence is the > characteristic of conditioned namas and rupas, of the khandhas. ... >This passage ...shows some real > problems IMO, where you seem to think concepts are something apart from > thinking. > Concepts, are in fact, the prime content of thinking! .... S: Yes, concepts are 'something apart from thinking'. Right now, there are cittas which are thinking. There are cetasikas, such as vitakka and sanna which are essential for this task as they direct the cittas to the concept and mark and remember it. Cittas and cetasikas don't have any other 'content' other than their particular characteristics. They arise, perform their functions of experiencing, thinking, marking, contacting and so on, then fall away. .... >TG: You might have just as well written -- but the concepts [thoughts] which > are > conceived [thought about]don't have the characteristic of impermanence. .... S: Exactly. For example, 'I' and 'Another' are thought about, imagined, but can never be directly known. A sound can be directly known with insight, but at the moment of thinking about that sound, it is also just an idea. ... > Concepts are "conditionally dependent," .... S: I'll leave it here as we're very far apart on this one. I don't see concepts as conditioned, arising or falling away. Take 'a computer'. It isn't conditioned, it doesn't arise, because it's only ever imagined. Thinking, however, can be directly known even now as it arises. Metta, Sarah ======= #84133 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Hi Ken H, Larry, TG, Scott. It is interesting that here there is reference to the same text as TG quoted about the khandhas. A very good idea that Larry refers to this second stage of insight in the Patisambhidamagga. I am glad Scott gave the Pali of : thus this he sees with right understanding as it really is. Whenever we read yathaabhuuta, as it really is, there is reference to direct understanding, not inferential knowledge. I shall add a quote from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Kh Sujin, and in a separate post Survey of Paramattha dhammas by Kh SujinSurvey of Paramattha dhammas by Kh Sujin I shall add a few things from the Co. to the Patisambhidamagga. Op 17-mrt-2008, om 0:20 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > 7. 'Understanding of defining by summarisation thus "Materiality > whether past, present or future is impermanent in the sense of > destruction, painful in the sense of terror, not self in the sense of > having no core" is knowledge of comprehension. Understanding by > generalisation thus "Feeling . . . [608] (etc.) . . . Consciousness . > . . Eye . . . (etc.) ageing and death, whether past . . . " is > knowledge of comprehension. > > 'Understanding of defining by summarisation thus "Materiality, whether > past present or future is formed, dependently arisen, subject to > destruction, subject to fall, subject to fading away, subject to > cessation" is knowledge of comprehension. Understanding of defining by > generalisation thus "Feeling . . . (etc.) . . . Consciousness . . .Eye > . . .(etc.) ageing and death whether past future or present is > impermanent, formed, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, > subject to fall, subject to fading away, subject to cessation" is > knowledge of comprehension.' --------- Quote from Survey of Paramattha dhammas by Kh Sujin: The third vipassanå ñåna is comprehension by groups, sammasana ñåna. This is the paññå which clearly realizes the rapid succession of nåmas and rúpas as they arise and fall away. When this stage of insight has not yet arisen, one knows that nåma and rúpa arise and fall away very rapidly, but the rapid succession of nåmas and rúpas as they arise and fall away does not appear. At the first stage and at the second stage of insight, paññå penetrates the characteristics of nåma and of rúpa, one at a time, as distinct from each other, but it does not yet realize their rapid succession as they arise and fall away. The first, the second and the third stage of insight are only beginning stages, they are called “tender insight”, taruna vipassanå. They are not “insight as power”, balava vipassanå, that is, insight which has become more powerful at the higher stages. At the stages of tender insight, when there is direct understanding of the nåmas and rúpas which appear, there is still thinking arising in between. However, although there is thinking, different dhammas are not joined together into a whole, into “the whole world”, such as one used to do. ------- Nina. > #84134 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:33 am Subject: Perfections Corner (109) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - We read further on about the sage Nanda’s thoughts: “He thought, ‘If I wish to ask my brother forgiveness, it should be in the most superior way.’ He was wondering how he should achieve this. He thought that in order to ask his brother forgiveness, he would bring Sakka, the King of the devas, from the heaven of the Thirty-three, but he found this improper. Since he and his brother were still in this world, it was more suitable to bring the chief King Manoja who resided in Brahmavaddhana and who was more powerful than the other Kings. He would tell King Manoja that he wanted to ask his brother forgiveness. When he had thought about this he went to the palace of King Manoja and said, ‘I will get the sovereignty over all India and offer it to you, but I would pray you to see my elder brother, so that I will be forgiven by him.’ Finally, Nanda could ask his brother forgiveness and was forgiven by him. The Bodhisatta let the sage Nanda look after their mother whereas he looked after their father for as long as they lived. The Bodhisatta taught Dhamma with the graceful poise of a Buddha to King Manoja: ‘Joy, careless ease, laughter and sport, are the sure heritage Of him that studiously shall tend a mother in old age. Joy, careless ease, laughter and sport, are the sure heritage Of him that studiously shall tend a father in old age. Gifts, loving speech, kind offices, together with the grace Of calm neutrality of mind shown in due time and place These virtues to the world are as a linch-pin to chariot wheel. If these virtues are lacking, parents do not receive respect and reverence from their children.’ ” Thus, if someone does not give assistance to his parents in this way, he has no reverence for his parents. We read further on: “The parents should be revered, and the wise approve of the man in whom these virtues may be found. They say that the parents are like Brahma, they own a high position and are worthy of respect. Therefore, the wise give respect to them and honour them with service, providing them with food, drink, clothing, beds, by bathing and anointing them, and washing their feet, Sages praise in this world people who look after their parents in this way, and when they part from this world they will rejoice in heaven.” To be continued. Metta, Han #84135 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:03 am Subject: Even Equanimity... bhikkhu0 Friends: What is the Equanimity Link to Awakening? Even evaluation is characteristic of the Equanimity Link to Awakening. (UpekkhÄ?-Sambojjhanga). Preventing both deficiency & excess and securing impartiality is the function of Equanimity. Imperturbable ballance is the manifestation of the Equanimity Link to Awakening. Equanimity just looks on whenever new phenomena arise and cease. This stable yet plastic patience purifies all the other advantageous mental states, which reach maximum, when joined with Equanimity... Equanimity (UpekkhÄ?) is a moderating mental construction. Equanimity is also a mood of neither gladness nor sadness. Equanimity is also a feeling of neither pain nor pleasure. Equanimity is also the neutral ability to be indifferent. Equanimity is also the 4th infinitely divine dwelling. Equanimity is also a quite high form of happiness. Equanimity is also a refined mental purification. Equanimity is therefore a Link to Enlightenment... There is Equanimity both regarding live beings and dead things. There is Equanimity both regarding all internal & external states. There is Equanimity both regarding all past, present, and future. There is Equanimity both regarding all mentality & all materiality. The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (Ä?sava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by alert & rational attention develops the Equanimity Link to Awakening based on seclusion, based on disillusion, on ceasing, culminating in full renouncing relinquishment, then neither can mental fermentation, nor any fever, nor discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] When mind is concentrated one can observe all closely in equanimity. The Equanimity Link to Awakening arises right there. He develops it, and for him repeatedly meditating it goes gradually to the completion of its development. MN118 [iii 85] Further inspirations on the imperturbable quality of Equanimity: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Feeding_Equanimity.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Even_is_Equanimity.htm Cool Calm is the Ultimate Balm! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #84136 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Love them "dhammas" (The All and Concepts) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and TG) - In a message dated 3/17/2008 4:01:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi TG, Thanks for your reflections on the 'All'. --- TGrand458@... wrote: > I understand "The All" to mean everything possible to human > experience<..> > Since concepts are made known/experienced, I consider them as part of > "The > All" and in the "mental phenomena" category. .... S: The Sabba Sutta is in the Salayatanavagga of SN. I believe these suttas, referring to the impermanence of the internal and external dhammas, the suffering, the non-self characteristics of the same, the knowing of the 'All', the abandoning of the 'All', the full understanding of the 'All' etc, are referring to the ayatanas, not to concepts. Concepts can only ever be thought about, never known with insight. They are not khandhas and don't have the characteristic of impermanence etc. What is translated as 'mental phenomena' is dhammaayatana. This does not include concepts. ... >The Buddha defines the > mental > aspect of "the all" as follows -- "The mind and mental phenomena and > mind-consciousness and things to be cognized by mind-consciousness." -- > Connected > Discourses pg., 1142. It is well beyond me as to how "concepts" could > be > something not "to be cognized" by mind-consciousness. .... S: When we appreciate that it is only namas and rupas or khandhas which can be directly known now, then whatever the translation, we know that the 'all' or what is to be directly understood, refers to these. .... > Two pages later, pg. 1144, the Buddha delivers two suttas telling about > > uprooting all conceiving. Which includes not conceiving the eye, > eye-consciousness, eye-contact, whatever feeling arises with eye-contact > as condition, etc. .... S: These conceivings refer to cittas arising with attachment and wrong view. .... > The so-called ultimate realities are the very things the Buddha doesn't > even > want us to conceive about., he wants us to abandon them, reject them, > and > destroy them. .... S: Yes, usually there is conceiving with attachment about what is seen and so on. "....Since he does not conceive anything thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbaana." .... >(Notice: the Buddha talks about "conceiving" seamlessly > with the > rest of his teaching. I do not ever recall him saying that conceiving > or > concepts are in another realm of phenomena all to their own. Do you?) .... S: As B.Bodhi says in his note: "Conceiving (ma~n~nanaa) is the distortional thought process governed by craving, conceit, and views.... Later, in the notes: "Spk: 'he does not conceive the eye (cakkhu.m na ma~n~nati): He does not conceive the eye as "I" or "mine," or as "another" or "another's".....etc " It is the the conceivings which are to be known and uprooted, i.e cittas with lobha. "I", "mine" and "another" cannot be known and uprooted because they do not exist, they are purely (wrongly) imagined to exist. .... > And BTW, without rejecting and abandoning "the all" it is impossible to > overcome suffering. To escape "The All" one needs to escape all of > conditionality; to reject it, to abandon it. ... S: Through understanding. " "Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering." As both the Pali in these suttas and the commentary note clarifies, it is the 3 pari~n~nas that are being referred to. These are the understandings that follow the development of the stages of insight, beginning with the clear understanding of namas and rupas. ...> > The only unconditioned I am aware of is Nibbana. Concepts do not fall > into > that category, so the only other possibility is "conditioned." ... S: Yes, by understanding the conditioned dhammas, by developing dispassion towards them, the unconditioned dhamma is realised and the defilements are eradicated in stages. This is pahana pari~n~na, full understanding as abandoning. Metta, Sarah =================================== As I see the matter, there are only paramattha dhammas and aggregations of such. We cling to both. We cling to dhammas as sources of delight and despair, attempting to draw close to the pleasant ones and draw back from the unpleasant, and we cling to and identify with aggregations by conceptualizing them as singular realities at least as "real" as the dhammas of which they are composed. Insight has to apply to more than paramattha dhammas. Ignorance causes us to conceptualize the body, for example, as a singular, stable, and dependable entity that is "me" or "mine" and to grasp onto it, not perceiving it as an aggregation of dhammas changing at the finest level in content and pattern so that while the dhammas constituting it are always new and fresh, the aggregation ages and degrades in form. And if we have always had our view obscured by ignorance, then one day we look at the body with sudden amazement, thinking "Omigod! What happened?" To conquer this ignorance requires examining the illusion as well as the reality underlying it, and the "aha moment" occurs when the two are properly related. When we come to see the body as it actually is - unreliable, undependable, uncontrollable, and, as a thing-in-itself, actually an illusion and no more than a single act of a multi-act magic show of the mind, we then become disenchanted and dispassionate, and we tend towards relinquishment and release. With metta, Howard #84137 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:22 am Subject: Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply: NEW TG: "'Seeing' Past, Future, External, or Far Khandas, as they really are, would require inference would it not? Isn't the point the Buddha's making about "seeing" the "principles" of "conditionality"? Such 'seeing' is both inferential and direct. This is the point I'm making." Scott: Yes, I see the point you are making. I'm just being careful in evaluating the view that is presented, especially regarding 'seeing' 'past' and 'future' dhammas. What do you make of the fact that this 'seeing' described in the referenced sutta seems to be a function pa~n~naa (as shown: 'yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati'), and not the result of any other dhamma? To me this rules out 'inference'. So far I've come up with one word which, in Paa.li, means 'inference', and that is 'anumaana', which does not appear in the sutta. My point here is that in order for the 'seeing' to be as described in the sutta, it can only be that sort of 'seeing' characteristic of pa~n~naa - no other sort of 'seeing', such as 'inference'. In other words, this sutta does not appear to support the view set forward. 'Inference' would have to be characteristic of another dhamma, not pa~n~naa, unless one is using the term to be synonymous with those set out in Dhammasa"nganii 16. I think we are dealing with objects of the mind-door here, when it comes to 'past' and 'future', although I am not sure. In this case I think there is a need to specify what the object is that is to be known in the past or the future, and by what element of consciousness. For example, in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (CMA, pp. 136-137): "But the object of mind-door consciousness is of six kinds, and that object may be past, future, or independent of time, according to circumstance. [Manodvaarikacittaana.m pana chabbidham pi paccuppannam atiita.m anagata.m kaalavimutta~n ca yathaaraham aalambana.m hoti.] "Further, in the case of door-freed-consciousnesses - that is, rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death (consciousness) - the object is sixfold, and according to the situation (that object) has usually been apprehended in (one of) the six doors in the immediately preceding existence, as either a present or past object or as a concept. It is known as kamma, or as a sign of kamma, or sign of destiny. [Dvaaravimuttaana~n ca pana pa.tisandhi-bhavanga-cuti-sankaataana.m chabbidham pi yathaasambhava.m yebhuyyena bhavantare cha-dvaaragahita.m paccupannam atiita.m pa~n~nattibhuuta.m vaa kamma-kammanimitta-gattinimittasammata.m aalambana.m hoti.] TG: "Now, If I'm wrong, could you explain how the mind can directly know 'realities' of the past, future, far, or external khandhas, unless it is 'in principle,' and not merely through direct experience??? (You could just 'cut to the chase' and let me know how you could experience 'future' khandas directly in the present?) And if not, maybe we could revisit the idea of these 'knowledge's/insights' having to do with inference even if you didn't see the term in the Pali." Scott: No, I can't explain that to you at this point. I'd like to learn more about what the objects are, for example see the term 'aalambana' above, often a synonym for 'aaramma.na, and the use of 'nimitta', which, to me, suggests signs in reference to past and future. Can you elaborate what you might consider the objects in the past or the future that you are referring to in your thesis? I'll keep researching this, TG. Sincerely, Scott. #84138 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:14 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, When we listen to the Dhamma, the goal should be detachment from wrong view. Also, when we listen, there can be a degree of detachment from our wrong ideas about a self. Acharn Sujin said that by studying visible object with awareness one will have less attachment to visible object as a real being. In the ultimate sense there are only nåma and rúpa arising and falling away. She said: “One doesn’t have to hurry to get rid of all attachment and aversion because this is impossible. Our goal is to get rid of wrong view and ignorance. One will have lobha and dosa as usual, but they can decrease when right understanding is developed. The Buddha’s teachings are concerned with one thing: developing understanding, because all dukkha comes from ignorance. It has ignorance as its root by clinging to reality which changes all the time. It seems that we can control life, but realities arise by conditions. You don’t want pleasant things to change, but they change all the time. You don’t want to get old, but you are getting old all the time. You don’t want to part from things or people, but one day even this body will be scattered about. So we live very temporarily in one moment and we do not know what the next moment will be like.” Through the development of insight we learn the difference between what is real in the ultimate sense, a paramattha dhamma, and a concept (paññatti) that is only an object of thinking. On may have doubts whether it is beneficial to know, when looking at a flower, that this is colour, that only colour is seen, that colour and seeing are paramattha dhammas, and thinking of a flower is thinking of a concept. The truth of dhammas is deep and difficult to understand. The development of understanding of the truth can lead to a lessening of defilements. Defilements cause sorrow. It is beneficial to understand what dhamma is, to know that dhamma is different from a concept. But, understanding must be developed very naturally, not in a rigid way. We should not try to separate mindfulness of dhammas and daily life. We may be discouraged that paññå and sati seldom arise and that we are thinking of people, things and events most of the time. But thinking is a reality, and if we do not realize it as such we take it for self. ***** Nina. #84139 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Hi Ken H, Larry, TG, Scott. Op 17-mrt-2008, om 3:52 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Path of Discrimination XX,6: "How is it that understanding of > defining past, future and present > states by summarisation is knowledge of comprehension? ------- I select from the Co (in Thai) to this section, just a few parts about how to see the five khandhas. As to past, future and present, this is similar to the Tiika to Vis. XIV, I quoted for TG. Past, present and future can be seen as past: before the rebirth- consciousness, future: past the dying-consciousness, and between these moments it is present. Then this is narrowed down : as santati, continuity, that is, in a process, there is arising and falling away of cittas, past, future and present. Then it can be even more precise taking account of the arising moment, of presence and of falling away. The co. states that the yogavacaara by realizing the triad of past, future and present he penetrates impermanence by sammassana ~naa.na, comprehending by groups. He knows that rupa is conditioned: it has a beginning and end: it is there and then not to be found. it is impermanent. As to understanding of Dependent Origination, it is dependent on conditions for its arising. Its disappearance is natural, it goes to its destruction. --------- TG, you wondered why I go to the Commentaries for explanations of the suttas. My limited knowledge cannot understand the deep meaning of the suttas without help. I need Abhidhamma and Commentaries. If I just read the words past, future and present, and: impermanence, I do not get the deeper meaning. Just thinking about: it goes, it goes, or: look my ageing body, but this is not insight that leads to detachment. Then there is still my body that is ageing. It has to be broken down into elements, and that by understanding. Samyutta Nikaya IV, 52, the World: <' "The world! The world!" is the saying, lord. How far, lord, does this saying go?' 'It crumbles away, brethren. Therefore it is called 'the world". What crumbles away? The eye... visible object... eye-consciousness.. > With the help of Abh and Co. I can learn to understand the deeper meaning of the suttas, seeing how these encourage us time and again to be mindful of the present reality. Nina. #84140 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:37 am Subject: 89 Cittas Vs what the Buddha has taught about Vinnana truth_aerator Hello all, Abhidhamma teaches that there are 89 consciousnesses, in the sutta's however Buddha (or Sariputta) has said that there is only 6 (and at MOST 8). 1) Where in the suttas does it say that there are 89 types of consciousnesses? 2) How can consciousness have "ethical" qualities (ie wholesome, unwholesome) ? As I understand, the consciousness simply cognizes. It is ability to know, it is 'presence of phenomenon' or maybe shining ON phenomenon. The vedana, sanna, sankhara on other hands MAY determine this or that to be wholesome or not, not bright knowing. --- "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10} http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.049.than.html --- IMHO, the above means that the mind (I suspect it is the vinnana stream) is illuminating (or shining), ie cognizant, but itself it is NOT wholesome or unwholesome. So how to reconcile all of this? Thank you all, Lots of metta, Alex #84141 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Scott Thank you for your deep thinking but don't be surprised if we're not on the same page... ;-) In a message dated 3/17/2008 6:23:00 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, Thanks for the reply: NEW TG: "'Seeing' Past, Future, External, or Far Khandas, as they really are, would require inference would it not? Isn't the point the Buddha's making about "seeing" the "principles" of "conditionality"B Such 'seeing' is both inferential and direct. This is the point I'm making." Scott: Yes, I see the point you are making. I'm just being careful in evaluating the view that is presented, especially regarding 'seeing' 'past' and 'future' dhammas. What do you make of the fact that this 'seeing' described in the referenced sutta seems to be a function pa~n~naa (as shown: 'yathaabhuuta.pa~n~naa (as shown: 'yathaabhuuta.na.m pana chabbidham pi anagata.m kaalavimutta~anagata.m kaalavimutta~n ca yathaa "Further, in the case of door-freed-consciou"Further, in the c rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death (consciousness) - the object is sixfold, and according to the situation (that object) has usually been apprehended in (one of) the six doors in the immediately preceding existence, as either a present or past object or as a concept. It is known as kamma, or as a sign of kamma, or sign of destiny. [Dvaaravimuttaana~[Dvaaravimuttaana~n c[Dvaaravi[Dvaaravimuttaan[D chabbidham pi yathaasambhava.chabbidham pi yatha cha-dvaaragahita.cha-dvaaragahita.m paccupannam atiicha-dvaar kamma-kammanimitta-kamma-kammanimitkamma-kammanimitta-gatt TG: "Now, If I'm wrong, could you explain how the mind can directly know 'realities' of the past, future, far, or external khandhas, unless it is 'in principle,' and not merely through direct experience??experience??? (You could just 'cut to the chase' and le you could experience 'future' khandas directly in the present?) And if not, maybe we could revisit the idea of these 'knowledge's/'knowledge's/insights' having to do with inference even see the term in the Pali." Scott: No, I can't explain that to you at this point. I'd like to learn more about what the objects are, for example see the term 'aalambana' above, often a synonym for 'aaramma.na, and the use of 'nimitta', which, to me, suggests signs in reference to past and future. Can you elaborate what you might consider the objects in the past or the future that you are referring to in your thesis? I'll keep researching this, TG. .................................................... NEW TG: LOL "My thesis?" I guess that's fair enough as long as its "my thesis" that the Buddha taught about impermanence, suffering, nonself, etc. I have a lower threshold of scholarship than you do Scott. Although I admire your scholarship, it seems such scholarship might last a great many lifetimes before it pays off...if it pays off. Since you seem to admit you don't understand the terms the Buddha is using or how he is using them or what they refer to, and since you are not comfortable with my explanation, then seems like you'll need to work on figuring it out yourself. I think its important to figure out because its basically figuring out the "general methodology and sensibility of the Buddha's teaching" and knowing this is critical to making progress IMO. I'm quite content to see in the Buddha's teaching that when he talks about -- he sees the past, future, far, or external, as nonself, -- fully mixed together with internal references, that he is talking about (in the former "external" case) mental inferences of such...in terms of "conditionality principles"...in order for the mind to drop attachment to that which isn't I, me, mine and to that which is "murdering" them. I am 1,000,000% confident the Buddha wasn't interested in the micro-minutia of "dhammas," he just wants to detach minds and free minds from suffering. If an inference can do the trick, so be it. If element analysis and insightful observation of such will do it, cool. IMO, its the combination of both...as the Suttas overwhelmingly demonstrate. (Please don't let Howard check my math.) LOL TG OUT Sincerely, Scott. #84142 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (24) - a question nilovg Dear Han, Op 16-mrt-2008, om 23:34 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > N: When > we intend to develop kusala and understanding, it does > not matter whether chanda is predominant, viriya, > citta or vimamsa. These > conditions just operate without anybody intending to > develop a particular one. > > Han: > But on second thought, I have a question, please. > Question: > Does it also mean that we do not have to develop the > Perfection of Wisdom as such? > If we develop kusala and understanding, the Perfection > of Wisdom may develop as the case may be, without our > intending to develop the Perfection of Wisdom? -------- N: We have the intention (cetanaa and chanda, desire-to-t-do) to develop all kinds of kusala because we see the value of kusala, and this is conditioned by many factors, also stemming from the past, maybe past lives. This intention is kusala dhamma, not ours. Kusala, including, pa~n~naa can be a perfection when we see the benefit of having less defilements. We can develop kusala without expecting a gain for ourselves. If we develop all kinds of kusala in this way, we can say that all perfections develop together. We do not select one perfection such as patience or pa~n~naa, we think we have to develop. All perfections can be developed together wholeheartedly and with enthusiasm, piiti. Nina. #84143 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 89 Cittas Vs what the Buddha has taught about Vinnana nilovg Dear Alex, Op 17-mrt-2008, om 16:37 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Abhidhamma teaches that there are 89 consciousnesses, in the sutta's > however Buddha (or Sariputta) has said that there is only 6 (and at > MOST 8). ------ N:In the Suttanta we find a sixfold classification of citta: the five types of sense-cognitions and mind-consciousness which includes all the other cittas. Cittas can be classified in different ways. --------- > > A: 1) Where in the suttas does it say that there are 89 types of > consciousnesses? ------ N: It does not say so. There is a Suttanta method and an Abhidhamma method. But all the same, all cittas are included in the sixfold classification. Thus also all jhanacittas we read about in the suttas. ------- > > A: 2) How can consciousness have "ethical" qualities (ie wholesome, > unwholesome) ? > > As I understand, the consciousness simply cognizes. It is ability to > know, it is 'presence of phenomenon' or maybe shining ON phenomenon. > The vedana, sanna, sankhara on other hands MAY determine this or that > to be wholesome or not, not bright knowing. ------- N: Citta clearly knows an object, it is the chief in knowing, the forerunner. The cetasikas condition it to be kusala, or akusala. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas are of the same class; kusala, akusala, vipaaka, kiriya. > > --- > A: "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming > defilements." {I,v,9} > > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming > defilements." {I,v,10} > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.049.than.html > --- > IMHO, the above means that the mind (I suspect it is the vinnana > stream) is illuminating (or shining), ie cognizant, but itself it is > NOT wholesome or unwholesome. ------- N: This text refers to the bhavangacitta. This is vipaakacitta. When in deep sleep and also in between processes there are not yet defilements with the citta. Nina. > #84144 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 89 Cittas Vs what the Buddha has taught about Vinnana truth_aerator Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your responce. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > --- > > A: "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming > > defilements." {I,v,9} > > > > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming > > defilements." {I,v,10} > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.049.than.html > > --- > > IMHO, the above means that the mind (I suspect it is the vinnana > > stream) is illuminating (or shining), ie cognizant, but itself it is > > NOT wholesome or unwholesome. > ------- > N: This text refers to the bhavangacitta. This is vipaakacitta. When in deep sleep and also in between processes there are not yet > defilements with the citta. > Nina. > > Here is TB's comment on that passage: ---- This statement has engendered a great deal of controversy over the centuries. The commentary maintains that "mind" here refers to the bhavanga-citta, the momentary mental state between periods when the mental stream adverts to objects, but this statement raises more questions than it answers. There is no reference to the bhavanga- citta or the mental stream in any of the suttas (they appear first in an Abhidhamma treatise, the Patthana); and because the commentaries compare the bhavanga-citta to deep sleep, why is it called luminous? And why would the perception of its luminosity be a prerequisite for developing the mind? And further, if "mind" in this discourse means bhavanga-citta, what would it mean to develop the bhavanga-citta? Another interpretation equates the luminosity of the mind with the "consciousness without feature," desribed as "luminous" in MN 49 and DN 11, but this interpretation also has problems. According to MN 49, that consciousness partakes of nothing in the describable world, not even the "Allness of the All," so how could it possibly be defiled? And, because it is not realized until the goal of the practice is reached, why would the perception of its luminosity be a prerequisite for developing the mind? And again, if "mind" here means consciousness without feature, how could the sutta talk of its development? A more reasonable approach to understanding the statement can be derived from taking it in context: the luminous mind is the mind that the meditator is trying to develop. To perceive its luminosity means understanding that defilements such as greed, aversion, or delusion are not intrinsic to its nature, are not a necessary part of awareness. Without this understanding, it would be impossible to practice. With this understanding, however, one can make an effort to cut away existing defilements, leaving the mind in the stage that MN 24 calls "purity in terms of mind." This would correspond to the luminous level of concentration described in the standard simile for the fourth jhana: "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain â€" as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress â€" he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness." From this state it is possible to develop the discernment that not only cuts away existing defilements but also uproots any potential for them to ever arise again.... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.049.than.html#n-1 =---- Any comments on the above? Thank you, Lots of Metta, Alex #84145 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Nina, I was wondering if there is any subtle difference between discerning (pariggaha) and comprehension (sammasana). We encountered 'discerning' of particular characteristics of nama and rupa, and 'discerning' of how those dhammas are conditioned, and now 'comprehension' of the general characteristics of those dhammas. Larry #84146 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 246 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, I believe you mentioned before how conceit arises with lobhamulacitta without wrong view. Is that correct? Is it classified as a form of clinging? Also, why is it that self view is the most subtle of the clingings but the first to be abandoned, along with the other wrong views. Larry #84147 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:59 pm Subject: Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply: TG: "Thank you for your deep thinking but don't be surprised if we're not on the same page... ;-)" Scott: No worries. I appreciate the chance to study these things and just bounce off the views to guide the study. We very likely see these things differently, but see below... NEW TG: "...It may be that this type of inference is 'pre-insight support...'a 'world view' in which the mind is fully inculcated in a vision of conditionality. Such a view detaches the mind..." Scott: I would suggest that 'inference' is thinking, which, as far as I am aware, involves the function of vitakka and vicaara which arise conascent with citta. The suggestion is that 'inference' is a support for pa~n~naa. The question, again as I see it, relates to the objects of thinking (vitakka/vicaara). And the object of thinking is 'thought'. And thought is concept. Take this segment from Abhidhammattha Sangaha (CMA, pp. 314-315): "In two ways concepts and mind-and-matter are conditions for mind - namely, by way of object (aaramma.navasena) and decisive support (upanissayavasena). Therein, object is sixfold as visible object, etc. But decisive support is threefold, namely, object decisive support (aaramma.nuupanissayo), proximity decisive support (anantaruupanissayo), and natural decisive support (pakatuupanissayo). Of them, the object itself when it becomes prominent serves as object decisive support. Consciousness and mental factors which immediately cease, act as the proximity decisive support. The natural decisive support is of many kinds: states of lust (raagaadayo), etc., states of faith (saddhaadayo), etc., pleasure (sukha.m), pain (dukkha.m), individuals (puggalo), food (bhojana.m), season (utu), lodgings (senaasena~n), - (all such things) internal (ajjhatta~n) and external (bahiddha.m), as the case may be, are conditions for wholesome states, etc. Kamma, too, is similarily a condition for its results." Scott: Concepts can be decisive support or object condition for wholesome consciousness, as noted above. This may be a bridge to the views presented in your thesis. Tg: "...Awareness of present experience or awareness of external principles both play a role. But insight actually disengages from both by detaching from both. As long as we're in analysis mode, whether internal or external, we are just building skills..." Scott: When you say 'awareness', to what do you refer? Below you discuss 'mindfulness'. Do you differentiate the two? And do you consider 'insight' to be a form of thinking? TG: "...Being that mindfulness is closer to concentration, closer to a focused and less distracted attitude, it is likely a more refined way of developing insight, and closer to a 'detachment.' But this by no means diminishes the importance of inferential knowledge. Many, many Suttas demonstrate the Buddha teaching to 'potential Arahats' and taking them across to becoming 'actual Arahats' by just dealing with external issues of impermanence, suffering, and or nonself." Scott: It was vipassanaa-pa~n~naa which functioned in the way described and hearing the dhamma was the condition. This was not, in my opinion, a matter of making inferences. Without the right conditions, no one became an 'actual arahat'. This is in no way a question of just thinking of 'issues of impermanence'. This had to be the deep penetration of a dhamma by pa~n~naa. NEW TG: "The Buddha is not talking ABOUT inferences. He is merely using them as part of his discussion on seeing things as they really are..." Scott: But you are suggesting that 'inference' supports 'direct knowledge'. In the above you seem now to be suggesting that 'inferences' are a didactic device employed by the Buddha. You are not only making an inference when you suggest this, in my opinion, but you seem to be suggesting that 'inference' is a mode of thought which in some way enhances 'direct knowledge'. NEW TG: "One of the Seven Limbs of Wisdom is "investigation." IMO, that investigation can be derived by both analysis of reasoning and observation of direct experiences." Scott: What are 'the Seven Limbs of Wisdom'? May I have a reference please? Sincerely, Scott. #84148 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 3/17/2008 8:00:06 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, Thanks for the reply: TG: "Thank you for your deep thinking but don't be surprised if we're not on the same page... ;-)" Scott: No worries. I appreciate the chance to study these things and just bounce off the views to guide the study. We very likely see these things differently, but see below... NEW TG: "...It may be that this type of inference is 'pre-insight support...'a 'world view' in which the mind is fully inculcated in a vision of conditionality. Such a view detaches the mind..." Scott: I would suggest that 'inference' is thinking, which, as far as I am aware, involves the function of vitakka and vicaara which arise conascent with citta. The suggestion is that 'inference' is a support for pa~n~naa. The question, again as I see it, relates to the objects of thinking (vitakka/vicaara)of thinking (vitakka/vicaara). 'thought'. And thought is concept. Take this segment from Abhidhammattha Sangaha (CMA, pp. 314-315): "In two ways concepts and mind-and-matter are conditions for mind - namely, by way of object (aaramma.navasena) and decisive support (upanissayavasena)(upanissayavasena). Therein, object is six etc. But decisive support is threefold, namely, object decisive support (aaramma.nuupanissasupport (aaramma.nuupanissayo) (anantaruupanissayo(anantaruupanissayo), and natural decisive su( Of them, the object itself when it becomes prominent serves as object decisive support. Consciousness and mental factors which immediately cease, act as the proximity decisive support. The natural decisive support is of many kinds: states of lust (raagaadayo)support is of of faith (saddhaadayo)of faith (saddhaadayo), etc., pleasure individuals (puggalo), food (bhojana.m), season (utu), lodgings (senaasena~n)(senaasena~n), - (all such things) internal (ajjhat (bahiddha.m)(bahiddha.m), as the case may be, are conditions for etc. Kamma, too, is similarily a condition for its results." Scott: Concepts can be decisive support or object condition for wholesome consciousness, as noted above. This may be a bridge to the views presented in your thesis. ................................................. NEWER TG: Again, I'd like to get away from the idea of "my thesis" and deal with the Sutta. Lets deal with the terms that I'm calling "inference" in the Sutta, as presented in the Sutta. If we regularly view the Suttas in light of commentaries, then we are trying to fit the Suttas into the commentarial-view, and that puts the commentary as the authority and the Suttas as second tier. I feel that's a dangerous approach. Can we try to logically, common-sense-ically, explain why the Buddha talks about external, far, past future; side by side with other factors as a way of seeing things as they really are. Since we seem to be unable to resolve this issue by commentarial analysis, maybe that approach should be put aside for the time being. ................................................................... Tg: "...Awareness of present experience or awareness of external principles both play a role. But insight actually disengages from both by detaching from both. As long as we're in analysis mode, whether internal or external, we are just building skills..." Scott: When you say 'awareness', to what do you refer? Below you discuss 'mindfulness'discuss 'mindfulness'. Do you differentia consider 'insight' to be a form of thinking? .................................................... NEWER TG: I would view awareness and mindfulness as overlapping but with mindfulness being a more formal form of practice. I use them pretty interchangeably figuring that a serious Buddhist would get the gist of my meaning. But, as interesting as all of this is, it doesn't seem to address the Sutta. .................................................... TG: "...Being that mindfulness is closer to concentration, closer to a focused and less distracted attitude, it is likely a more refined way of developing insight, and closer to a 'detachment.of developing insigh means diminishes the importance of inferential knowledge. Many, many Suttas demonstrate the Buddha teaching to 'potential Arahats' and taking them across to becoming 'actual Arahats' by just dealing with external issues of impermanence, suffering, and or nonself." Scott: It was vipassanaa-pa~Scott: It was vipassanaa-pa~n~na described and hearing the dhamma was the condition. This was not, in my opinion, a matter of making inferences. .................................................... NEWER TG: Your opinion aside, let's discuss the construction and presentation of the Sutta and the "inferential" terms in question. .............................................................................. . Without the right conditions, no one became an 'actual arahat'. This is in no way a question of just thinking of 'issues of impermanence'question of just thi the deep penetration of a dhamma by pa~n~naa. .......................................................... NEWER TG: I have "in no way" suggested that it "is just" a matter of inference. I have made it clear that it is not "just" a matter of inference. As with inferences, deep penetration of elements is just part of the road to the non-conditioned. It is by understanding the nature of Dhamma, (not an individual dhamma's own characteristic), that the mind turns away, rejects those same elements, detaches from them, and achieves the non-conditioned -- Nibbana. ........................................................... NEW TG: "The Buddha is not talking ABOUT inferences. He is merely using them as part of his discussion on seeing things as they really are..." Scott: But you are suggesting that 'inference' supports 'direct knowledge'. In the above you seem now to be suggesting that 'inferences' are a didactic device employed by the Buddha. You are not only making an inference when you suggest this, in my opinion, but you seem to be suggesting that 'inference' is a mode of thought which in some way enhances 'direct knowledge'. ........................................................... Newer TG: Yes, absolutely in every case above. ........................................................ NEW TG: "One of the Seven Limbs of Wisdom is "investigation.NEW TG: that investigation can be derived by both analysis of reasoning and observation of direct experiences.o Scott: What are 'the Seven Limbs of Wisdom'? May I have a reference please? ............................................................... NEWER TG: "The Seven Limbs of Wisdom" is the PTS translation of "the Seven Enlightenment Factors" -- the latter being BB's translation. SN Book 5 has at least 50 pages in one chapter dedicated on that. But the references to it probably appear some 300--400 times in the Suttas. I suspect it was the PTS translation that threw you. I'll try to post SN Book 3, 122 (10) where Sariputta teaches how to be a stream-enterer...all the way through to arahat. Terms such as -- tumor, disease, dart, alien; play prominent roles...in that "the 5 Khandhas" should be seen as such. Sounds like more inferences. :-) TG OUT ............................................................................ Sincerely, Scott. #84149 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply. Here, again, is the sutta: SN22 82(10) Pu~n~namaasutta.m "Any kind of form whatsoever ... any kind of feeling whatsoever ... any kind of perception whatsoever ... any kind of volitional formations whatsoever... any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near -- one sees all [of these] as it really is with correct wisdom thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self. When one knows and sees thus, bhikkhu, then in regard to this body with consciousness and in regard to all external signs, I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit no longer occur within." "...Evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati, yaa vedanaa atiitaanaagata paccuppannaa ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa sabba.m vedana.m neta.m mama neso'hamasmi na me'so attaa"ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati, yaa kaaci sa~n~naa atiitaanaagata paccuppannaa ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa sabba.m sa~n~na.m neta.m mama neso'hamasmi na me'so attaa"ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati, ye keci sa"nkhaaraa atiitaanaagata paccuppannaa ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa sabba.m sa"nkhaara.m neta.m mama neso'hamasmi na me'so attaa"ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati, ya.m ki~nci vi~n~naa.na.m atiitaanaagata paccuppanna.m ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa sabba.m vi~n~naa.na.m neta.m mama neso'hamasmi na me'so attaa"ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati, eva.m kho bhikkhu, jaanato eva.m passato imasmi~nca savi~n~naa.nake kaaye bahiddhaa ca sabbanimittesu abhi.mkaaramami.mkaara maanaanussaa na hontiiti." NEWER TG: "Again, I'd like to get away from the idea of "my thesis" and deal with the Sutta. Lets deal with the terms that I'm calling 'inference' in the Sutta, as presented in the Sutta. If we regularly view the Suttas in light of commentaries, then we are trying to fit the Suttas into the commentarial-view, and that puts the commentary as the authority and the Suttas as second tier. I feel that's a dangerous approach." Scott: This is likely an important side-track, but if one takes the sutta in the light of what one thinks it is about, as I believe you are suggesting, then one takes what one thinks it is about to be an authority and the sutta as second tier. There is absolutely no way around this, in my opinion. If one takes a sutta, and uses the English translation of the sutta, and then goes on to define words in ways one prefers and sets about to theorise about the meaning of the sutta based on these idiosyncratic definitions, then this is just an exercise in neo-commentarianism (which was just an exercise in neologism, but never you mind...). I'll take the ancient commentaries over neo-commentaries any day of the week. This is just to address your statement above. Now that we totally disagree here, let's just move on... ;-) TG: "Can we try to logically, common-sense-ically, explain why the Buddha talks about external, far, past future; side by side with other factors as a way of seeing things as they really are." Scott: I fear I might totally suck at this... NEWER TG: "let's discuss the construction and presentation of the Sutta and the "inferential" terms in question." Scott: Please, start the discussion of the above. Since I seemed to get you below: Me: "But you are suggesting that 'inference' supports 'direct knowledge'. In the above you seem now to be suggesting that 'inferences' are a didactic device employed by the Buddha. You are not only making an inference when you suggest this, in my opinion, but you seem to be suggesting that 'inference' is a mode of thought which in some way enhances 'direct knowledge'." Scott: ...then we can start here. Without any interest in convincing you, and only to study things, I may refer to commentarial and abhidhamma material as interests me - no need to get into it. NEWER TG: "'The Seven Limbs of Wisdom' is the PTS translation of 'the Seven Enlightenment Factors' -- the latter being BB's translation. SN Book 5 has at least 50 pages in one chapter dedicated on that...I'll try to post SN Book 3, 122 (10) where Sariputta teaches how to be a stream-enterer..." Scott: Thanks, TG. Will we finish with the above sutta first? Sincerely, Scott. #84150 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 3/17/2008 9:27:47 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, Thanks for the reply. Here, again, is the sutta: SN22 82(10) Pu~n~namaasutta.S "Any kind of form whatsoever ... any kind of feeling whatsoever ... any kind of perception whatsoever ... any kind of volitional formations whatsoever..formations whatsoever... any kind of conscious past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near -- one sees all [of these] as it really is with correct wisdom thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self. When one knows and sees thus, bhikkhu, then in regard to this body with consciousness and in regard to all external signs, I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit no longer occur within." "...Evameta."...Evameta.m "...Evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati, atiitaanaagata paccuppannaa ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa sabba.m sa~n~na.m neta.m mama neso'hamasmi na me'so attaa"ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passati, y atiitaanaagata paccuppannaa ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa sabba.m sa"nkhaara.m neta.m mama neso'hamasmi na me'so attaa"ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~ vi~n~naa.na.vi~n~naa.na.m atiitaanaagatavi~n~naa.na.m atiitaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa sabba.m vi~n~naa.na.duure santike vaa sabba.m me'so attaa"ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.me'so attaa"ti evameta.m eva.m kho bhikkhu, jaanato eva.m passato imasmi~nca savi~n~naa.nake kaaye bahiddhaa ca sabbanimittesu abhi.mkaaramami.kaaye bahiddhaa ca na hontiiti." NEWER TG: "Again, I'd like to get away from the idea of "my thesis" and deal with the Sutta. Lets deal with the terms that I'm calling 'inference' in the Sutta, as presented in the Sutta. If we regularly view the Suttas in light of commentaries, then we are trying to fit the Suttas into the commentarial-to fit the Suttas into t commentary as the authority and the Suttas as second tier. I feel that's a dangerous approach." Scott: This is likely an important side-track, but if one takes the sutta in the light of what one thinks it is about, as I believe you are suggesting, then one takes what one thinks it is about to be an authority and the sutta as second tier. There is absolutely no way around this, in my opinion. If one takes a sutta, and uses the English translation of the sutta, and then goes on to define words in ways one prefers and sets about to theorise about the meaning of the sutta based on these idiosyncratic definitions, then this is just an exercise in neo-commentarianism (which was just an exercise in neologism, but never you mind...). I'll take the ancient commentaries over neo-commentaries any day of the week. This is just to address your statement above. Now that we totally disagree here, let's just move on... ;-) .................................................... NEWEST TG: Well, I see the posting of the Sutta, I don't see any dealing with the Sutta. As far as "neo-commentary" is concerned, you're entitled to your own views on that. If you follow commentary by rote and don't internalize it to become your own understanding, then what's the point? The teachings will have no effect. Anyway, by claiming the commentaries are superior to your own abilities to understand...you have made your own conclusions as to that based on your own abilities of understanding. Therefore, its a silly argument you're making because it applies to you as well. In other words, you have decided the commentaries are more useful than your own interpretive abilities, however, its your interpretive abilities that lead you to this conclusion. So you're an authority over the Suttas and the commentaries if you follow your line of reasoning. Its the same argument you're making against me, and yes, it seems silly. (This is slightly off point, but I have met some very well educated Theravadin monks from Sri Lanka, with MA's in Buddhism from the most prestigious Buddhist University in Sri Lanka, that have very little regard for Abhidhamma or the commentaries. Some such people feel that they are prone to being "off track" and mis-leading. These people would very possibly think you were likely poisoning your mind with commentaries. So there are a variety of opinions on that out there.) The Buddha taught in a manner for people/minds to "see for themselves." I view commentaries as often helpful, but not authoritative. The Suttas may need to be read and then reread dozens of times for the content to reinforce-ably "speak for itself." Of course, that will depend on the individual. .............................................................. TG: "Can we try to logically, common-sense-TG: "Can we try to logicall Buddha talks about external, far, past future; side by side with other factors as a way of seeing things as they really are." Scott: I fear I might totally suck at this... NEWER TG: "let's discuss the construction and presentation of the Sutta and the "inferential" terms in question." Scott: Please, start the discussion of the above. Since I seemed to get you below: Me: "But you are suggesting that 'inference' supports 'direct knowledge'. In the above you seem now to be suggesting that 'inferences' are a didactic device employed by the Buddha. You are not only making an inference when you suggest this, in my opinion, but you seem to be suggesting that 'inference' is a mode of thought which in some way enhances 'direct knowledge'." Scott: ...then we can start here. Without any interest in convincing you, and only to study things, I may refer to commentarial and abhidhamma material as interests me - no need to get into it. NEWER TG: "'The Seven Limbs of Wisdom' is the PTS translation of 'the Seven Enlightenment Factors' -- the latter being BB's translation. SN Book 5 has at least 50 pages in one chapter dedicated on that...I'll try to post SN Book 3, 122 (10) where Sariputta teaches how to be a stream-enterer.tea Scott: Thanks, TG. Will we finish with the above sutta first? ............................................... NEWEST TG: Scott, if you can't deal with the Sutta without dissecting it into a commentarial framework that takes it out of the context presented in the Sutta, then we probably are going nowhere. For it is the context by which it is presented in the Sutta that is the issue at hand. I've made my views known by posting and commenting on the Sutta in question. With about 4 e-mails back and forth, I have not seen you provide any explanation as to why the Buddha delivered this Sutta in these terms and the method that is recorded. If you don't wish to do so, lets call it a day. I do appreciate your efforts however. TG OUT Sincerely, Scott. #84151 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (24) - a question hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your further clarification. > Nina: We have the intention (cetanaa and chanda, desire-to-do) to develop all kinds of kusala because we see the value of kusala, and this is conditioned by many factors, also stemming from the past, maybe past lives. This intention is kusala dhamma, not ours. Kusala, including, pa~n~naa can be a perfection when we see the benefit of having less defilements. We can develop kusala without expecting a gain for ourselves. If we develop all kinds of kusala in this way, we can say that all perfections develop together. We do not select one perfection such as patience or pa~n~naa, we think we have to develop. All perfections can be developed together wholeheartedly and with enthusiasm, piiti. -------------------- Han: At the moment, I still cannot get used to the idea that we do not select one perfection such as patience or pa~n~naa, we think we have to develop. Yes, all perfections can be developed together, but not to the same degree for all ten perfections in one’s life-time. Out of ten perfections that one develop together, one perfection is bound to come up with the highest degree over other perfections. For example, on page 182 of the book, “The Perfections”, the Bodhisatta (Lomahamsa) thought “I shall develop the perfection of equanimity to the highest degree.” Here, the Bodhisatta’s selection of perfection of equanimity over other perfections was clearly indicated. On page 105 of the book, “The Perfections”: Why did King Pukkusaati choose to go forth and have the utmost patience? Was it not a selection among perfections? Why must one accumulate such patience to be able to act like King Pakkusaati, if one were to develop all ten perfections together without any selection? There are many such examples in the book, “The Perfections.” Well, it is my immediate response to your post. But I will think over it, and who knows? One day, I may change my mind and agree with you once again on this issue. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #84152 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:44 pm Subject: Patthaana (25) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of (3). Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya) The Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya) has two components: (1) the conascence predominance (sahajaataadhipati), and (2) the object predominance (aaramma.naadhipati). The following is on (2) the object predominance (aaramma.naadhipati). The following examples are taken from the talks by Ashin Janakaabhivamsa. They show what happens when sense objects become the object predominance (aaramma.naadhipati). (1) The case of visual object as aaramma.naadhipati in an unwholesome way. Here, Sayadaw brought up the story of King Kusa (jaataka story 531). I do not have English translation of the jaataka story, so I will give just a gist of it. King Kusa was married (by arranged marriage) to Princess Pabhaavatii. But the king was very ugly and when the princess saw the king she was frightened and ran away back to her parents’ place (her father was also another king). But King Kusa was overwhelmed by the beauty of the princess and that beauty became the aaramma.naadhipati. That beauty as the aaramma.naadhipati dominated the king and he had to follow to her country in various disguises and only after a lot of problems, including the fighting with and winning seven other kings who came to get Princess Pabhaavatii, he ultimately won back the princess. The theme of the story was how the visual aaramma.naadhipati could dominate even our Bodhisatta. [Han: Under this category, I can refer to one more jaataka – Ummaadanti jaataka no. 527. King Sivi (Bodhisatta) was overwhelmed by the beauty of Ummaadanti, wife of his commander-in-chief (the king had earlier rejected Ummaadanti, without seeing her, but on the misinformation given by his ministers). The king could not eat or sleep and he might die of the desire for Ummaadanti. The commander-in-chief offered his wife to the king, to save the king’s life, saying that the deva living on the banyan tree had told them what was wrong with the king. The king was frightened and ashamed, thinking that even the devas knew of his lust, he had samvega, and refused to take Ummaadanti and his mind came back to normal. The theme of the story was how the visual aaramma.naadhipati could dominate even our Bodhisatta.] (2) The case of sound as aaramma.naadhipati in an unwholesome way. Here, Sayadaw referred to a story about a woman who heard the music played by a harpist named Guttila. The music was so good it became the sota aaramma.naadhipati. Being overwhelmed by the sota aaramma.naadhipati the woman proceeded towards the harpist, but as she was so overwhelmed, she stepped out of the window thinking it was the stairway and fell down and died. The theme of the story was how the sota aaramma.naadhipati could dominate the woman and even lead her to her death. (3) The case of the touch as aaramma.naadhipati in an unwholesome way. Here, Sayadaw told the story of Pa~ncapaapii. It was a rather long story. The King once traveled to the city’s outskirts incognito and accidentally touched the hand of a young woman. The touch was so good it became photthabbaaramma.naadhipati. The king could not stay away from her and without revealing his true identity he asked her father’s permission and married her, and visited her at nights. But the photthabbaaramma.naadhipati was so overwhelming that the king wanted to marry her officially as his queen. So one day he left his royal sword in her house and told the ministers that it was stolen. The king asked the ministers to catch the thief. The ministers found the sword in the woman’s house and she was arrested. When asked, she said it was taken to her house by her husband. She did not know his name or where he worked because he came only at night time, but she could identify him if she could feel his hands. So the woman was placed in a closet and the ministers were asked to put their hands into the closet through a very small opening. (The ministers were treated as suspects because the stealing of the sword from the palace was considered to be an inside job.) One minister started the process, and when she said the man was not her husband, the minister enthralled by her touch, could not leave the place. He became the captive of her touch, and he thought he would say he was the thief if no thief was caught, so that he could marry her after bearing whatever punishment he might receive from the king. Other ministers who followed him, all have the same idea, all being held captive by her touch. As the ministers were milling around, finally, the king said he would also volunteer and put his hand inside the closet. At that moment the woman yelled out that he was her husband. Then the king asked the ministers whether a woman with such a touch could not be a queen. The ministers had to agree and the king married her officially as the queen. The theme of the story was how the photthabbaaramma.naadhipati could dominate the king and the ministers. [The foot-note stated that this story was taken from Anguttara Atthakathaa with regard to AN I, i, iv, where the Buddha said: “No other touch do I know that so persists in obsessing the mind of a man as the touch of a woman”] (4) The case of wholesome aaramma.nas. Here, Sayadaw mentioned that seeing the Buddha’s image or hearing the Buddha’s teachings, the visual aaramma.na and sota aaramma.na can become adhipati and dominate the person in developing vipassana insight. For the ariyans, Nibbaana is the aaramma.naadhipati when they enter and dwell in phala-samaapatti. This is the end of (3). Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya) (4). Proximity condition (anantara-paccaya) and (5) Contiguity Condition (samanantara-paccaya) will be taken up together starting from the next post. metta, Han #84153 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:20 am Subject: Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau Hi Larry and Nina, Thanks very much for your comments. On with paragraph 9 tomorrow! (With a bit of luck.) Larry, I think I follow your explanation and I think I agree, although it is easy to get the wrong impression at one point where you say: >Notice the use of "any". We are going for general characteristics and so an inclusive comprehension. > As Nina reminds us, there is thinking in between moments of tender insight. This might be where your term "inclusive comprehension" comes in. But I think we all agree the actual insights are of one dhamma at a time. -------- Nina quoting "Survey:" > "At the stages of tender insight, when there is direct understanding of the nåmas and rúpas which appear, there is still thinking arising in between. However, although there is thinking, different dhammas are not joined together into a whole, into "the whole world", such as one used to do." -------- Ken H > Larry: I'm sure there will be more discussion of "destruction, terror, > and having no core" later, so let's wait for that. > That's about it. On to para. 9--> (in couple of days). > > Larry > #84154 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 89 Cittas Vs what the Buddha has taught about Vinnana sarahprocter... Dear Alex, I said it was only a matter of time before you brought up the 'luminous' topic:-) See 'Useful Posts' under 'luminous' for answers to all the questions you've ever had on it!! --- Alex wrote: > > > A: "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming > > > defilements." {I,v,9} > > > > > > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming > > > defilements." {I,v,10} > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.049.than.html ... > > N: This text refers to the bhavangacitta. This is vipaakacitta. > When in deep sleep and also in between processes there are not yet > > defilements with the citta. > > Nina. .... > Here is TB's comment on that passage: >and because the commentaries > compare the bhavanga-citta to deep sleep, why is it called luminous? .... S: Because these cittas are vipaka cittas with no defilements arising at such times. .... > And why would the perception of its luminosity be a prerequisite for > developing the mind? ... S: Appreciating the clear distinction between such moments of vipaka and subsequent akusala is what is essential. We read in an earlier sutta in this section about how quickly the mind changes. Understanding that nothing lasts, that there is no on-going undefiled states is important. ... >And further, if "mind" in this discourse means > bhavanga-citta, what would it mean to develop the bhavanga-citta? ... S: It is the understanding of the danger or harm of akusala that causes all the problems that is essential to all kinds of mental development. ... > > Another interpretation equates the luminosity of the mind with > the "consciousness without feature," desribed as "luminous" in MN 49 > and DN 11, but this interpretation also has problems. .... S: This is a red-herring. Here the luminosity (as in many other contexts) is referring to nibbana. Metta, Sarah ======= #84155 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:36 am Subject: Re: thoughts on practice sarahprocter... Hi Larry, Back to #81130, belatedly as usual! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > Here are a few comments interspersed. .... > Larry: I think concentration cetasika limits the flow of objects from moment to moment to > just one object whether concept or reality. ... S: I would say that there is only ever one object at a time and that concentration (ekaggataa cetasika) assists the citta and other cetasikas by focusing on that object. .... >With a jhana type concentration or mindfulness > practice there is a deliberate attempt to stay with that one object or one type of object > such as breath for some time, but there also seems to be a clarity factor that may not > entail staying with one object. .... S: Jhana cittas focus on the object with appana samadhi (absorption concentration). At such times, depending on the skill of jhana, the same object is experienced by subsequent jhana cittas as I indicated recently (quoting Htoo) with JJJJJJJJ etc. When there is 'a deliberate attempt to stay with that one object or one type of object' etc, there is ordinary (khanika) ekaggata (usually akusala), focusing on different objects through different doorways which follow each other in rapid succession. For example, there may be moments when softness is experienced which we take for breath, but aren't there also moments of thinking about the experience, thinking about intending to focus, moments of hearing sound, moments of painful bodily feeling and so on. The 'clarity' factor or intensity cannot be compared to appana samadhi. .... >I don't know exactly how to account for this clarity factor in > abhidhamma terms. What it refers to is 'being in the moment' rather than clinging to > projections of past or future. ... S: Doesn't it just mean that instead of thinking about/clinging to projections of past or future, such as domestic issues, holidays, family and so on, there is instead thinking about/clinging to projections of past or future, such as focussing on the breath, needing to adjust the posture, the experience of the breath a moment ago and so on? In other words, just different concepts being conceived in between the sense-door experiences? .... >I think it can arise with either kusala or akusala cittas, but > maybe not. If it arises only with kusala cittas it might be an aspect of panna or sati. It is > definitely necessary for insight. ... S: If it is an aspect of panna, what exactly is understood at such moments? In the Visuddhimagga, what exactly did it say was essential for the first stage of insight? Was it any 'deliberate staying with one object' such as breath? *** Btw, I liked the post you wrote to James, #82809, with the quote from MN$$ about clinging and the 5 aggregates. I hope you and James have more good discussions. Also, thank you for your kind comment on Vism X1X. I'm glad it was helpful. As you said "Doubts many not be overcome anytime soon, but this wisdom is excellent sustenance for the long journey ahead." [That is, the wisdom of the Vism.!!) I'm appreciating the discussions on ch XX. Metta, Sarah ======== #84156 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN 10.60 Girimananda Sutta To Girimananda sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Thank your for your good quote and further comment. --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Scott: Conascence condition, that is, where the conditioning state > (whether, say, moha-cetasika or pa~n~naa-cetasika), causes the > conditioned states to arise simulaneously, is central here, I think. > The 'experience' of the whole or the 'compact', or lack thereof, is > immediate, and supports further states by other conditions. ... S: Yes, I think so. Take the hearing of thunder. Only sound is heard, but immediately, there's aversion with ignorance and an idea of something, a 'whole' is very common, due to sanna having marked such experiences before. It doesn't mean that ditthi always arises at such times (in these javana processes), but the latent tendency of ditthi is always there, ready to arise when there are the various conditions in place, particularly natural decisive support condition. Metta, Sarah ========== #84157 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Hi Larry, Op 18-mrt-2008, om 1:24 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I was wondering if there is any subtle difference between discerning > (pariggaha) and comprehension (sammasana). We encountered 'discerning' > of particular characteristics of nama and rupa, and 'discerning' of > how > those dhammas are conditioned, and now 'comprehension' of the general > characteristics of those dhammas. -------- N: pariggaha is derived from pariga.nhaati: examine, comprehend. sammasana is derived from sammasati: grasp, know thoroughly. These are all words for insight. Insight of the third stage has grown stronger, compared to insight of the second stage. As we read in Survey: Thus here, at the third stage, the characteristic of impermanence becomes clearer, but at the fourth stage or first stage of Principal insight the understanding of impermanence is even more precise. Nina. #84158 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 246 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 18-mrt-2008, om 1:37 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I believe you mentioned before how conceit arises with lobhamulacitta > without wrong view. Is that correct? Is it classified as a form of > clinging? ------- N: Correct, conceit arises with lobha-mulacitta without wrong view. They each have different objects. Conceit is not named under the four kinds of clinging. It is classified as one of the fetters (samyoyana). The arahat has eradicated it. --------- > > L: Also, why is it that self view is the most subtle of the > clingings but > the first to be abandoned, along with the other wrong views. --------- N: Clinging to sense objects is taught first. One should not merely know the name 'clinging', but its charactreistic when there is actually clinging to a pleasant object, thus, without having to think of it or define it as lobha or clinging. This is already difficult. Only when sati and pa~n~naa arise and insight is more developed clinging can be relaized as it is. We may begin to realize it when we cling to visible object, but it is more difficult to realize that we take visible object for a person. It seems that we see a person, or that 'I' see. Then we are reminded that we take seeing for self, but since we are so familiar with this, we do not know it. So long as we take any dhamma for self, other defilements such as lobha or dosa cannot be eradicated. When we take lobha and dosa for my lobha and my dosa we do not see them as mere dhammas that are impermanent and non-self, we are completely ignorant of their characteristics. Thus the eradication of wrong view has to come first. Nina. #84159 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 89 Cittas Vs what the Buddha has taught about Vinnana nilovg Dear Alex, See Sarah's answer. I also thought I would refer you to Useful Posts in the files section. Nina. Op 17-mrt-2008, om 21:30 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Here is TB's comment on that passage: > ---- > This statement has engendered a great deal of controversy over the > centuries. #84160 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (24) - a question nilovg Dear Han, Op 18-mrt-2008, om 7:40 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Yes, all perfections can be developed together, but > not to the same degree for all ten perfections in > one’s life-time. Out of ten perfections that one > develop together, one perfection is bound to come up > with the highest degree over other perfections. ------ N: They are not of the same degree for one individual, you are right. We read in Kh Sujin's book that one should know: which perfection is neglected? Is metta not neglected? ------ > H: For > example, on page 182 of the book, “The Perfections”, > the Bodhisatta (Lomahamsa) thought “I shall develop > the perfection of equanimity to the highest degree.” > Here, the Bodhisatta’s selection of perfection of > equanimity over other perfections was clearly > indicated. > > On page 105 of the book, “The Perfections”: Pukkusaati left his royal palace and all his > possessions in order to go forth. He must have had the > utmost patience to change his usual way of life.... > Was it not a selection among > perfections? Why must one accumulate such patience to > be able to act like King Pakkusaati, if one were to > develop all ten perfections together without any > selection? -------- N: It is good so long as we do not see it as 'I do. I select', but understand that there are conditions for doing such or such. Also, I see a connection between all the perfections. For example See Ch 2 on Sila, the story of Akitti: <“When the ascetic Akitti noticed that the brahmin was in need of food, he took the sodden Kåra leaves and gave them all to the brahmin. He did the same the second day and the third day.” Here we see that the kusala he performed at those times were actually the perfections of generosity, dåna, of morality, síla, of renunciation, nekkhamma, of patience, khanti, of energy, viriya, of determination or steadfastness, adiììhåna, and of truthfulness, sacca, that is, sincerity in the performing of kusala. He fulfilled the perfections in order to attain Buddhahood. All perfections are interrelated and they support one another. Akitti was steadfast in generosity, he did not hesitate because of avarice. He did not long for anything in life, not even for something very slight. This is the perfection of sincerity. We read: “The ascetic Akitti was unshakable in generosity while he offered his sodden Kåra leaves for three consecutive days. He fulfilled the perfection of loving-kindness, mettå, by his disposition to give assistance to all beings. He fulfilled the perfection of equanimity, upekkhå, by evenmindedness or neutrality, not being disturbed by controversial conduct of people or by trying events.” Sakka begged for food for three consecutive days, but the ascetic Akitti was un-shakable in his determination to give, and he gave, no matter who was asking. We read: “As regards the perfection of paññå, he knows which dhammas are beneficial conditions for the fulfillment of the perfections and which are not. He abandons the dhammas which are not beneficial and he directs his practice towards those which are beneficial...."> I find it helpful to see this connection. Pukkusati developed patience, but also determination,nekkhamma, energy, equanimity. They all go together. **** Nina. #84161 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thoughts on practice upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - In a message dated 3/18/2008 5:36:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Larry, Back to #81130, belatedly as usual! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > Here are a few comments interspersed. .... > Larry: I think concentration cetasika limits the flow of objects from moment to moment to > just one object whether concept or reality. ... S: I would say that there is only ever one object at a time and that concentration (ekaggataa cetasika) assists the citta and other cetasikas by focusing on that object. ================================= Larry's take on this somewhat makes sense to me, though I have my reservations. [I've also thought that the "concentration cetasika" might be a kind of subtle cetana - a tendency/inclination/tending to extend the current object "to the max" (traditionally 17 mind moments).] But what I do not get is what I consider to be your "slogan", Sarah, of this cetasika "assisting the citta and other cetasikas by focusing" on the object. If there is, always, and without exception, exactly one object of consciousness at a time, what can it mean to "focus on that object"? Focus on it as opposed to WHAT? What is that "focusing"? What would it mean, oppositely, NOT to focus on it? This seems to me as possibly an empty notion. With metta, Howard #84162 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thoughts on practice sarahprocter... Hi, Howard (& Larry), Thx for your comments. Just briefly for now.... --- upasaka@... wrote: > But what I do not > get is > what I consider to be your "slogan", Sarah, of this cetasika "assisting > the > citta and other cetasikas by focusing" on the object. If there is, > always, and > without exception, exactly one object of consciousness at a time, what > can it > mean to "focus on that object"? Focus on it as opposed to WHAT? .... S: Exactly - one object of consciousness and there is always a "focus on that object", otherwise it wouldn't be experienced. This is why ekaggataa cetasika is a universal mental factor. Like phassa, sa~n~naa, vedanaa, cetanaa, jivitindriya and manasikaara, there cannot be any citta experiencing any object without its support. .... >What is > that > "focusing"? .... S: Vism, XIV, 139 "Its characteristic is non-wandering, or its characteristic is non-distraction. Its function is to conglomerate conascent states as water does bath powder." At the moment of seeing, ekaggataa focusses on visible object. Even at moments of being conventionally distracted, ekaggataa performs this function of 'conglomerating conascent states' and focussing on the particular concept at the time. ... >What would it mean, oppositely, NOT to focus on it? This > seems to > me as possibly an empty notion. .... S: If there were no 'focus', there'd be no experiencing of the object, just as if there were no 'contact', no 'marking', no 'co-ordinating' etc, there'd be no experiencing of the object. This is why these universal mental factors are essential for the arising of cittas and for life to go on from moment to moment. The cittas and cetasikas condition each other by conascence and mutuality conditions at each moment. Metta, Sarah ======== #84163 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply. Sorry, I thought you had more to say about the sutta, and in response to those things I had said earlier. I see you want me to comment directly on the original thesis statement. I guess we are covering old ground in a subtext of our discussion, but it is interesting, so, regarding: TG: "As far as 'neo-commentary' is concerned, you're entitled to your own views on that. If you follow commentary by rote and don't internalize it to become your own understanding, then what's the point?..." Scott: The 'internalization', of the Dhamma, as you put it, seems to refer to an intellectual learning, which is fine. This would be pariyatti. I don't think the point is to develop 'my own understanding', though, TG. This would simply be me thinking about Dhamma and me coming up with thoughts about Dhamma, which I would think about more. We seem to see 'understanding' very differently here. In the above, 'understanding' is something someone has, a possession, and an 'internalization'. 'Internalization' is essentially and conceptually merely a psychological process, describing the way in which aspects of one's psyche become 'structured' via an interaction with the world of others. As such, the thesis is only a form of learning theory, or a reworked version of some psychoanalytic theories of development. When one considers that 'understanding' is the dhamma 'pa~n~naa', that it is this mental factor which is 'understanding', then we are dealing with a totally different sort of situation. Here, there is no room for making anything 'one's own understanding', since 'understanding' is simply present when it is and not present when it is not. No one 'has' it. As introduced in the first post, and I can start with this first clause, the thesis suggests '[t]he Buddha teaches insight in such a manner...', and, with such an introduction, demonstrates that this 'insight' is not at all pa~n~naa, but some form of 'learning tool' and cognitive technique. Here we have the rather untenable and rather mundane suggestion that the Buddha 'teaches insight' like a school teacher would teach adding. The view represents a way of considering a convention pedagogical style one thinks was adopted by the Buddha. As a theory of pedagogy it is fine, albeit simplistic, but to me, this in no way addresses the depth of the Dhamma. This is not at all about satipa.t.thaana. TG: "...If you follow commentary by rote and don't internalize it to become your own understanding, then what's the point? The teachings will have no effect. Anyway, by claiming the commentaries are superior to your own abilities to understand...you have made your own conclusions as to that based on your own abilities of understanding....The Buddha taught in a manner for people/minds to 'see for themselves.' I view commentaries as often helpful, but not authoritative. The Suttas may need to be read and then reread dozens of times for the content to reinforce-ably 'speak for itself.' Of course, that will depend on the individual..." Scott: There is too much emphasis on 'the individual' here, TG. The thesis reduces the impersonal, slow, and epigenetic process of the development, say, pa~n~naa, to another theory of learning which is watered-down psychology and entirely mundane. One has no 'abilities to understand' as I see it. Pa~n~naa understands. It is the characteristic inherent in this particular mental factor. Now, I suppose that pa~n~naa must somehow serve as support for thinking, but I don't know enough to say in what way. It is only a conventional view that is being presented, in my opinion; thoughts about pedagogy and learning. Sincerely, Scott. #84164 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thoughts on practice upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/18/2008 8:10:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi, Howard (& Larry), Thx for your comments. Just briefly for now.... --- upasaka@... wrote: > But what I do not > get is > what I consider to be your "slogan", Sarah, of this cetasika "assisting > the > citta and other cetasikas by focusing" on the object. If there is, > always, and > without exception, exactly one object of consciousness at a time, what > can it > mean to "focus on that object"? Focus on it as opposed to WHAT? .... S: Exactly - one object of consciousness and there is always a "focus on that object", otherwise it wouldn't be experienced. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Huh? It is a fact that there is but one object at a time. Are you saying that without this cetasika there would be more than one? Are you saying it is a choosing of one out of many? If not, I get nothing from this. ----------------------------------------------------- This is why ekaggataa cetasika is a universal mental factor. Like phassa, sa~n~naa, vedanaa, cetanaa, jivitindriya and manasikaara, there cannot be any citta experiencing any object without its support. .... >What is > that > "focusing"? .... S: Vism, XIV, 139 "Its characteristic is non-wandering, or its characteristic is non-distraction. Its function is to conglomerate conascent states as water does bath powder." ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Non-wandering to WHAT? I get no genuine meaning from this. -------------------------------------------- At the moment of seeing, ekaggataa focusses on visible object. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Meaning WHAT? What does it mean to "focus" on the object? What would be the case otherwise? ----------------------------------------------------- Even at moments of being conventionally distracted, ekaggataa performs this function of 'conglomerating conascent states' and focussing on the particular concept at the time. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: For me, this is words without content. ------------------------------------------------------ ... >What would it mean, oppositely, NOT to focus on it? This > seems to > me as possibly an empty notion. .... S: If there were no 'focus', there'd be no experiencing of the object, just as if there were no 'contact', no 'marking', no 'co-ordinating' etc, there'd be no experiencing of the object. This is why these universal mental factors are essential for the arising of cittas and for life to go on from moment to moment. The cittas and cetasikas condition each other by conascence and mutuality conditions at each moment. Metta, Sarah ============================ Sarah, I read your words, but I do not get the meaning. What IS focusing? The questions I posed before still remain, as far as I'm concerned. Sorry. With metta, Howard #84165 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (24) - a question hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your patience with me. As I see it, there are three inter-connected issues: (1) All perfections can be developed together, and all perfections are interrelated and they support one another. (2) We do not select one perfection such as patience or pa~n~naa, we think we have to develop. In other words, we do not select which one we have to develop. (3) It is good so long as we do not see it as 'I do. I select', but understand that there are conditions for doing such or such. I have no problem with no. (1). With no. (2), I think we should have a choice which perfection we wish to develop, like Lomahamsa had thought “I shall develop the perfection of equanimity to the highest degree.” With no. (3), it is the anatta doctrine all over again. Being just a puthujjana, I for one, may not be that advanced to consider that there is no “I” who do or who select. Anyway, I sincerely thank you very much, and I really appreciate your patience with me, and for using your precious time to explain to me. Respectfully, Han #84166 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:24 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, The development of vipassanå is not a matter of focussing on specific objects and avoiding to think of concepts. We do not have to force ourselves to pay attention only to paramattha dhammas, that would be unnatural. Our life is full of concepts of persons and events, but it is most valuable to have more understanding of paramattha dhammas in the midst of life. We should not reject paying attention to concepts such as persons and events, they are part of our daily life. The Middle Way that is taught by the Buddha is the development of understanding of our own life, of our accumulations and inclinations as they naturally arise. Otherwise, the goal cannot be reached. Unknowingly we may be motivated by lobha to know only nåma and rúpa, and to avoid thinking of concepts, although we have realized in theory that this will only counteract the development. The persons we meet, the events that occur, our reactions to them with kusala cittas or akusala cittas, all that occurs in daily life can remind us of paramattha dhammas. Citta, cetasika and rupa are arising and falling away all the time. They are paramattha dhammas, they are within us and they are everywhere in our surroundings. They appear in daily life at this moment. If we could only let ourselves be reminded of them in whatever circumstances we are, then we can profit to the full of the Dhamma we learnt. The Abhidhamma teaches us what paramattha dhammas are and we can apply the Abhidhamma in the development of satipatthana, since the objects of sati and paññå are paramattha dhammas. The Abhidhamma can teach us to develop understanding naturally. Attachment and sadness may overwhelm us, but they can be known as only conditioned dhammas. They are cetasikas that are not ours. Sati and understanding are cetasikas performing their functions. Understanding is the foremost factor of the eightfold Path and it gradually develops. Right effort is another factor of the eightfold Path that performs its function of persevering with the development of right understanding. It is not “me” but a cetasika, viriya cetasika. Viriya, energy or effort is the quality of a heroe, víro. We have to be heroic to be aware of the reality of this moment, so that we eventually cross the flood of the cycle of existence. That means that we should never lose courage, even when sati of satipaììhåna does not often arise. Understanding is surely growing, even when we do not see much progress. Acharn Sujin encouraged us with the words: “Why can't we be brave enough to understand reality at this moment?...If we are not brave enough lobha will turn us away from this moment and hope for the next moment. We can begin to see how lobha dominates our life from moment to moment, and even from life to life. People think that it is impossible to be aware in times of misery or happiness, but we should be courageous.” ******** Nina. #84167 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (24) - a question nilovg Dear Han, Always good and useful to talk to you. Op 18-mrt-2008, om 14:29 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I have no problem with no. (1). > With no. (2), I think we should have a choice which > perfection we wish to develop, like Lomahamsa had > thought “I shall develop the perfection of equanimity > to the highest degree.” > With no. (3), it is the anatta doctrine all over > again. Being just a puthujjana, I for one, may not be > that advanced to consider that there is no “I” who do > or who select. ------- N: It is really not such a problem when you consider that it is the kusala citta, not a person, that thinks of developing such or such perfection that was formerly neglected. Maybe there is a good opportunity for daana today, or for metta. At the same time there is also this interrelation between the perfections: viriya is also needed to awaken from inertia, and determination: the perfections are beneficial, why not take this opportunity, it will take me away from always expecting something good for myself. And patience at all times, it is so easy to fall back to impatience when things are not the way we would like them to be. May be the receiver of my gift is unkind, but I will not repay unkindness with unkindness, I will be patient. Equanimity is also needed, kusala is kusala and if it is not well received by others, that is all right. Mettaa and generosity are good qualities, they are cetasikas arising when there are conditions for them, and this helps us to understand that they do not belong to 'me'. Theoretical understanding of anatta is not all that difficult, but the eradication of the idea of self may take many lives. Nina. #84168 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (25) nilovg Dear Han, Thank you, I find the stories of Sayadaw very good illustrations. I remember the sutta of the Anguttara Nikaya and it is good he rendered the Commentary. Below I would like to add something. Op 18-mrt-2008, om 7:44 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > The foot-note stated that > this story was taken from Anguttara Atthakathaa with > regard to AN I, i, iv, where the Buddha said: “No > other touch do I know that so persists in obsessing > the mind of a man as the touch of a woman” -------- N: We read in the “Paììhåna” (Faultless Triplet, VII, Investigation Chapter, Conditions: Positive, 1, Classification Chapter, Predominance, 10, § 413): “... After having offered the offering, having undertaken the precept, having fulfilled the duty of observance, (one) esteems and reviews it. (One) esteems and reviews (such acts) formerly well done...” Wholesomeness can be object-predominance-condition for kusala citta which esteems and considers the wholesome deed which was done. In this case one gives preponderance to that object. When we have been generous we can recollect our generosity and then there can be the arising again of kusala cittas. We read in the same section (§ 414) that dåna, síla and jhåna can be object-predominance-condition also for akusala citta. When we have performed generous deeds with kusala citta we may find that citta highly desirable, we may be pleased with our own generosity. There may be attachment and wrong view on account of our good deeds. If we do not know the different conditions for kusala citta and akusala citta we may take for kusala what is actually akusala. Thus, kusala can be object of clinging, it can even be object-predominance- condition for clinging. Anything can be object of clinging, except Nibbåna and the eight lokuttara cittas which experience it. ***** Nina. #84169 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (24) - a question hantun1 Dear Nina, It is also very beneficial for me to talk with you, even though there may be some minor differences once in a while. > Nina: It is really not such a problem when you consider that it is the kusala citta, not a person, that thinks of developing such or such perfection that was formerly neglected. Maybe there is a good opportunity for daana today, or for metta. At the same time there is also this interrelation between the perfections: viriya is also needed to awaken from inertia, and determination: the perfections are beneficial, why not take this opportunity, it will take me away from always expecting something good for myself. And patience at all times, it is so easy to fall back to impatience when things are not the way we would like them to be. May be the receiver of my gift is unkind, but I will not repay unkindness with unkindness, I will be patient. Equanimity is also needed, kusala is kusala and if it is not well received by others, that is all right. Mettaa and generosity are good qualities, they are cetasikas arising when there are conditions for them, and this helps us to understand that they do not belong to 'me'. Theoretical understanding of anatta is not all that difficult, but the eradication of the idea of self may take many lives. ----------- Han: There are many good points for me to learn from your above comment. I can say that I do not expect something good for myself, and I will not be upset when things are not the way I would like them to be. As I age, I am less and less expecting anything or wishing anything the way I like them to be. Whatever kamma is due it will just be vipaaka, the results of my past kusala and akusala. As you said, I have the theoretical understanding of anatta but it will take many lives to eradicate the idea of self. I think patience will be the key word in this case. Respectfully, Han #84170 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:27 am Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 6. truth_aerator Dear Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > The development of vipassan� is not a matter of focussing on specific objects >>>> First off all, please define what you mean by 'objects'. Vipassana is traditionally focused on anicca->dukkha->anatta . For that one MUST be focused either on kaya/vedana/citta or Dhamma , or maybe all of them. For example in a practice of breath meditation, or even touch-sensation meditation, ALL 4 satipatthanas can and should be present. >>> > The Abhidhamma can teach us to develop understanding naturally. >>> NO BOOK OR PERSON CAN DO THAT. They are like a menu, or an instuction manual can ONLY point the way. It is "YOU" that HAS TO go through. Period. The knowledge MUST be your own. If simple reading, or deluding oneself that (I know and see paramattha dhammas). Most of us have read 1000 times the material enough for arahatship. Yet are we Arahants? Anagamins? Sakadagamins? Sotapannas? A simple phrase "Nothing is worth clinging to" can lead ALL THE WAY to Arahatship (Sn 3.12). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.12.than.html Many of us have read 1000x of that. If reading 1000x of that didn't make me an Arahant or an Anagamin, then I guess that reading some more wouldn't do it either. However deep practice is the answer, after all, cessation of asavas (which prevent clear seeings) happen from Jhana. After all, Jhana is the crown of the Buddhist path. The fact that some people resist it means that the defilements are so strong that they prevent one from practicing... too bad as Jhana is beneficial to all. Lots of Metta, Alex #84171 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Scott Your last post failed to deal with the issues at hand in the Sutta and was just off on various tangents. Five strikes and you're out. ;-) TG #84172 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (25) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your useful comments. I note the following: * Wholesomeness can be object-predominance-condition for kusala citta, and when we recollect it there can be the arising again of kusala cittas. * daana, siila and jhaana can be object-predominance-condition also for akusala citta. If we do not know the different conditions for kusala citta and akusala citta we may take for kusala what is actually akusala. * kusala can be object of clinging, it can even be object-predominance-condition for clinging. Anything can be object of clinging, except Nibbaana and the eight lokuttara cittas which experience it. Thank you very much, Nina. Respectfully, Han #84173 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 246 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "So long as we take any dhamma for self, other defilements such as lobha or dosa cannot be eradicated. When we take lobha and dosa for my lobha and my dosa we do not see them as mere dhammas that are impermanent and non-self, we are completely ignorant of their characteristics. Thus the eradication of wrong view has to come first." Larry: Very interesting. How would you characterize insight into lobha or dosa _after_ self view has been abandoned? Regarding the objects of self view and conceit, I happened to be thinking about that today. For one thing, it seems that they both have the thought "I am". Can we say the object of self view is one of the 5 internal khandhas and the object of conceit is one of the 5 external khandhas as 'other person'? Larry #84174 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Ken, Larry:"Notice the use of "any". We are going for general characteristics and so an inclusive comprehension." Larry: This is my attempt to understand what "comprehension by groups" means. As I recall, the purification of view was also concerned with understanding all dhammas, not just the one that may be experienced. So I guess we could say all three of the tender insights are 'inclusive'. However, I don't think this inclusiveness is ordinary speculative thinking. I'm not sure how to characterize it except to say it is insight, not speculative thinking. Larry #84175 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > Larry:"Notice the use of "any". We are going for general characteristics > and so an inclusive comprehension." > > Larry: This is my attempt to understand what "comprehension by groups" > means. As I recall, the purification of view was also concerned with > understanding all dhammas, not just the one that may be experienced. So > I guess we could say all three of the tender insights are 'inclusive'. > However, I don't think this inclusiveness is ordinary speculative > thinking. I'm not sure how to characterize it except to say it is > insight, not speculative thinking. > Hi Larry, The thinking in between direct insights is ordinary thinking (forget "speculative" for now), isn't it? It sorts dhammas into groups, which are mere concepts. But it (the thinking) would be accompanied by panna at the level of pariyatti, and so I don't see a problem. Ken H #84176 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:19 pm Subject: Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau Hi all, I said I would skip para.8, but here it is anyway. I like the last three lines (about knowledge v. understanding), but don't ask me to explain them! "8. Understanding of defining by summarisation thus "with birth as condition there is ageing-and-death; without birth as condition there is no ageing-and-death" is knowledge of comprehension. Understanding of defining by generalisation thus "In the past and in the future with birth as condition there is ageing-and-death; without birth as condition there will be no ageing-and-death" is knowledge of comprehension. Understanding of defining by generalisation thus "With becoming as condition there is birth . . . With ignorance as condition there are formations. Without ignorance as condition there are no formations" is knowledge of comprehension. Understanding of defining by generalisation thus "In the past and in the future with ignorance as condition there are formations; without . . . no formations" is knowledge of comprehension. 'Knowledge is in the sense of that being known and understanding is in the sense of the act of understanding that. Hence it was said "Understanding of defining past, future and present states by summarisation is knowledge of comprehension. (Ps. I,53f.) "9. Herein the abbreviation 'The eye, . . . (etc.) . . . Ageing-and- death' should be understood to represent the following sets of things elided: 1. The states that occur in the doors [of consciousness] together with the doors and the objects. 2. The five aggregates. 3. The six doors. 4. The six objects. 5. The six kinds of consciousness 6. The six kinds of contact. 7. The six kinds of feeling. 8. The six kinds of perception. 9. The six kinds of volition. 10. The six kinds of craving. 11. The six kinds of applied thought. 12. The six kinds of sustained thought. 13. The six elements. 14. The ten kasinas. 15. The thirty-two bodily aspects. 16. The twelve bases. 17. The eighteen elements. 18. The twenty-two faculties. 19. The three elements. 20. The nine kinds of becoming. 21. The four jhanas. 22. The four measureless states. 23. The four [immaterial] attainments. 24. The twelve members of the dependent origination. "10. For this is said in the Patisambhida in the Description of What is to be Directly-Known: Bhikkhus, all is to be directly know. And what is the all that is to be directly known? [609] (1) Eye is to be directly known ,visible objects are < . . . eye consciousness . . . eye contact, . . . > Feeling (2) Materiality . . . . (Ps. I,5f)" (KH: I haven't typed out all of paras. 10 and 11. They are basically an expansion on the list given in para. 9.) "12. Since all this detail has been given there it has been abbreviated here. But what is thus abbreviated includes the supramundane states. These should not be dealt with at this stage because they are not amenable to comprehension. And as regards those that are amenable to comprehension a beginning should be made by comprehending those among them that are obvious to and easily discernable by the individual [meditator]." o0o I think that's fairly straightforward, don't you? Ken H #84177 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear TG, Regarding: TG: "Your last post failed to deal with the issues at hand in the Sutta and was just off on various tangents. Five strikes and you're out. ;-)" Scott: Okay, thanks. Sincerely, Scott. #84178 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:56 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (110) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - This is the continuation of Chapter 3 The Perfection of Renunciation. The other perfections should also be taken into consideration. The Bodhisatta was a person who did not pay attention at all to sense pleasures, he had the highest degree of respect for his parents, and he never tired of looking after them. Even though he had to take care of them, he still used every opportunity to dedicate himself to attaining jhaana. Another perfection we should develop in daily life is the perfection of energy, viriya. When the Bodhisatta searched for good fruits to offer to his parents, he needed to have endurance and energy. When we think of the ten perfections in our case, we should consider how our conduct is in the present life that has followed upon our lives of the past and that is conditioned by our accumulations in the past. One life was succeeded by a following life without interruption, and we were born into different lives as such or such person in such or such place. The perfection of renunciation is the elimination, the giving up and the subduing of attachment to sense objects, the departing from them. We only realize with regard to this life that we cling to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. To what extent can we gradually become more detached from these objects? We may see the benefit of developing the perfection of renunciation. Someone may have given up the lay life and become a monk, but if he still clings to the five sense objects just as a layman, there is no difference between being a monk or a layman. Therefore, the perfection of renunciation does not merely mean leaving the household life and becoming a monk. Renunciation means having the energy and courage to eliminate the clinging we all have to visible object, sound and the other sense objects. So long as we have not attained the excellent state of the non-returner, we have not eradicated clinging to sense objects. We should know ourselves as we are, we should know whether we are sincere and have the firm determination to eliminate the clinging to the five sense objects. We are, for example, attached to colour, when we look at pictures, when we find them beautiful and delightful. Generally, when we see something beautiful, we are likely to have enjoyment and clinging, lobha. If there is heedfulness, it can be known that at such a moment this is only a reality, a dhamma, that appears. Attachment can decrease by not trying to obtain the attractive object so that we do not accumulate more attachment. Thus, when there is a pleasant object, we can see it, but when it is not there and we cannot see it, we should not search for it. We may usually eat delicious food, and when we eat too much it is bad for our body. However, the citta that is attached to the flavour of food causes us to eat even when we are not hungry. If we can eliminate clinging, if we can have renunciation with regard to flavour, we shall eat just enough to satisfy our hunger, and if possible, we shall not even relish the food so much. Someone may not be hungry, and he knows that he will feel uncomfortable if he still eats. However, because the food is so delicious, he will just savour one morsel. This shows that he does not have renunciation. Whereas, if someone has renunciation, he can begin to train himself by endurance, and thus, he needs to have also the perfection of patience, so that he will eat just sufficiently to satisfy his hunger; he knows when the amount of food is just enough to sustain his body. To be continued. Metta, Han #84179 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Nina, I disagree with everything you write here. One of us must have a serious misunderstanding of the Dhamma: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Op 12-mrt-2008, om 2:28 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > When one has fully developed the Brahma-viharas, > > then he/she can turn the mind toward mentality and materiality, not > > before. > ----- > N: I appreciate it that you value much the brahmaviharas. > By having more understanding of nama and rupa it can support the > brahmaviharas. James: The Brahmaviharas doesn't have to do with understanding nama and rupa. They have to do with understanding "people". Clinging to the importance of self can lessen by > seeing self and person as nama and rupa. James: It is not just clinging, but aversion which must be overcome. Aversion toward self and others can only come about by SEEING self and others. It is this clinging to 'our > important person' that is obstructing the brahmaviharas. James: What is obstructing the Brahmaviharas is greed and hatred. Denying the existence of the person isn't going to overcome that. > Also, being partial : liking this person but not that person, is in > the way. It helps to see that we all are only fleeting phenomena. James: NO!! The Buddha taught to like all people (metta) equally, that is the practice of metta- he didn't teach to see people as not existing! You cannot generate metta if you see beings as not existing. We > are born, and live here for a short while, then we all have to depart > to another world. Life is too short to quarrel, to find fault with > one another. It is as short as one moment of citta that arises and > falls away. James: This is just plain weird. The Buddha taught to value and appreciate this HUMAN LIFE! He taught that it is due to this human life that we are able to hear, learn, and practice the Dhamma. You cannot have appreciation for this human birth and life if you believe that it doesn't exist...or that it is only as long as one citta! And, Mindfulness of Death, of a BEING'S DEATH, builds the sense of samvegga which is so important to Buddhist practice. That reminds not to waste our life away with adhamma things. James: Nina, no offense, but it seems to me that you have wasted your life with many adhamma things. Your life has been all theory with little practice. After all these years of studying the Abhidhamma with KS, would you say that your mind is more purified than before? Or are you still riddled with the same attachments, anxieties, and fear of death as before you started? > Nina. > Metta, James #84180 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities sarahprocter... Hi James & all, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: It is not just clinging, but aversion which must be overcome. > Aversion toward self and others can only come about by SEEING self and > others. .... S: What I find is that there is already plenty of 'SEEING self' and that what the Buddha taught us was the seeing of self-view as being based in ignorance and wrong-view. As you say, aversion as well as clinging have to be overcome. These are indeed the far and near enemies of metta. I think that appreciating that just in our own case, so in the case of others, there are really only moments of seeing, clinging, aversion, ignorance, odd moments of kusala and so on, it helps us to appreciate that really it's the same for everyone. It's not a person that behaves badly and so there's no justification for any kind of aversion towards anyone. In this way, instead of having the usual long stories about how others have behaved, conditioning such aversion, there can gradually be metta and the other brahma viharas instead. The understanding of common dhammas actually conditions more metta, more kindness, more understanding of others and more forgiveness. Metta, Sarah ======= #84181 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Insignificant (paritta.m) dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Anyway, I look at my books for parittaa dhammaas, and > I found the following. > > 1026: katame dhammaa parittaa? Sabbeva kaamaavacaraa > kusalaa akusalaa byaakataa dhammaa ruupakkhandho – pe > – vi~n~naa.nakkhandho ime dhammaa parittaa. > > Han: It means kaamaavacara cittas (54), associated > cetasikas, and all ruupas. > > -------------------- > > 1417: katame dhammaa parittaa? Kaamaavacara kusalam > akusalam sabbo kaamaavacarassa vipaako kaamaavacara > kiriyaabyaakatam sabba~nca ruupam ime dhammaa > parittaa. > > Han: It means kaamaavacara kusala citta (8), akusala > citta (12), kaamaavacara vipaaka citta (23), > kaamaavacarakiriyaabyaakata citta (11), all ruupas, > these are insignificant dhammas. > > -------------------- > > How do I connect the above passages that I found with > what you have written about the insignificant dhammas? ... S: Some time ago we were having a discussion about insignificant/ dhammas. Is visible object which is seen now inconsequential? As your good quotes point out, all sense-plane (kaamaavacara) sense-plane dhammas are paritta dhammas (unlike jhana and lokuttara cittas). I was reminded of this when reading the term in reference to rupas in the Dhsg. quote and also in the other passages I quoted. I found it helpful to consider this aspect further. I like this further quote from the Atthasaalinii, (PTS, Triplets in the Maatikaa): "In the triplet of 'Limited,' (parittattike) the word 'limited' is applied to a little mass (kha.n.ditattaa), as in 'a small or little mass of cowdung,'[SN iii 144]etc., because of its being cut off all round. States which, because of their small power are like little objects, are called 'limited,' a name given to things pertaining to the universe of sense(kaamaavacara dhammaanam). 'Sublime' (mahaggataa) means 'having reached greatness,' from ability to discard corruptions, from the abundance of fruition, from the length of duration; or it means 'have been reached by great persons.' i.e., persons with noble intention, energy, impulse, and understanding.(chandaviriyacittapa~~nehi pa.tipannaa)" Metta, Sarah ======== #84182 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James & all, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > James: It is not just clinging, but aversion which must be overcome. > > Aversion toward self and others can only come about by SEEING self and > > others. > .... > S: What I find is that there is already plenty of 'SEEING self' James: Do you really see yourself? I don't think so- you have a distorted view of yourself...as we all do. (BTW, there is no reason to have a panic attack every time someone says "self" ;-)) and that > what the Buddha taught us was the seeing of self-view as being based in > ignorance and wrong-view. James: "Self View" is completely different than "Seeing Yourself". > > As you say, aversion as well as clinging have to be overcome. These are > indeed the far and near enemies of metta. > > I think that appreciating that just in our own case, so in the case of > others, there are really only moments of seeing, clinging, aversion, > ignorance, odd moments of kusala and so on, it helps us to appreciate that > really it's the same for everyone. It's not a person that behaves badly > and so there's no justification for any kind of aversion towards anyone. James: It's not a person who behaves badly? Are you nuts?? ;-)) Of course it is a person who behaves badly but we must still have metta, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity toward that person. As the texts state, the objects of metta are beings, people (I thought I read you post that recently??) > > In this way, instead of having the usual long stories about how others > have behaved, conditioning such aversion, there can gradually be metta and > the other brahma viharas instead. James: Those "stories" you dismiss are kamma; but that's another subject. :-) The understanding of common dhammas > actually conditions more metta, more kindness, more understanding of > others and more forgiveness. James: No it doesn't. It conditions fake metta, fake kindness, and fake forgiveness. Forgiving people because you tell yourself "People don't exist" is, I'm sorry, fake! > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > Metta, James #84183 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Insignificant (paritta.m) dhammas hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. But may I know one thing? You said some time ago you were having a discussion about insignificant/dhammas. What prompted you to discuss on this subject. What is the value of knowing that all sense-plane (kaamaavacara) dhammas are paritta dhammas? Respectfully, Han #84184 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Dear Ken H, Thank you. Op 19-mrt-2008, om 2:19 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > And as regards those > that are amenable to comprehension a beginning should be made by > comprehending those among them that are obvious to and easily > discernable by the individual [meditator]." ------- > > I think that's fairly straightforward, don't you? --------- N: Yes, this is clear and straightforward. All possible objects of understanding have been given, but understanding only of those that appear is to be developed. As to comprehension, this is not inferential knowledge. All stages of insight are ~naa.na, and this term does not refer to theoretical understanding. Also, from the third stage of insight on there is tiira.na pari~n~na, full understanding as investigation, that follows upon full understanding as the known (~naata pari~n~na.) Pari~n~na is the application of insight. Characteristics of the dhammas that appear are 'investigated' with direct awareness and understanding. Nina. #84185 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 246 and Tiika. nilovg HI Larry, Op 19-mrt-2008, om 0:16 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > When we take lobha and dosa for my > lobha and my dosa we do not see them as mere dhammas that are > impermanent and non-self, we are completely ignorant of their > characteristics. Thus the eradication of wrong view has to come > first." > > Larry: Very interesting. How would you characterize insight into lobha > or dosa _after_ self view has been abandoned? -------- > N: Lobha and dosa are clearly seen as conditioned dhammas that are > impermanent, dukkha and non-self. It is known that they still arise > since the latent tendencies of sense desire and aversion have not > been eradicated. But they are realized as mere dhammas that have no > core. --------- > L: Regarding the objects of self view and conceit, I happened to be > thinking about that today. For one thing, it seems that they both have > the thought "I am". Can we say the object of self view is one of the 5 > internal khandhas and the object of conceit is one of the 5 external > khandhas as 'other person'? -------- N: There are many types of wrong view, and personality belief pertains to the five khandhas. I would not make a distinction between internal or external objects. We can also cling to outer objects with wrong view. Conceit can take any object, even when there is no comparing with another person. One clings to the importance of oneself, and this can happen also when wrong view has been eradicated. One finds one's citta, cetasika and rupa important and advertises oneself, for example, one advertises one's understanding, seeing it as superior to the understanding of others. This happens because of accumulations. ----- Nina. #84186 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Insignificant (paritta.m) dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > You said some time ago you were having a discussion > about insignificant/dhammas. What prompted you to > discuss on this subject. What is the value of knowing > that all sense-plane (kaamaavacara) dhammas are > paritta dhammas? ... S: One comment I wrote before on the topic of insignificant dhammas was: "....it is because of finding the sense-door experiences to be of such importance, such consequence that there is so much attachment and so little detachment towards them. By appreciating their transitory and inconsequential nature, there will gradually be less proliferating, less dependence on the worldly conditions as there is now. Usually we live in a world of long stories, without any understanding of seeing, hearing, visible object, sound, feelings and other dhammas. However, with the growth of panna, I think it becomes more apparent that what we find so very important are just these inconsequential, insignificant elements arising and falling away, not belonging to anyone and not in anyone's control." What prompted me to write about it further was that at the time you questioned whether we can really say sense objects are inconsequential or insignificant. I presonally find it helpful to know that whether a desirable or undesirable object is seen now or whether there's painful or pleasant feeling now, they really are just transitory elements of no significance. Now I'm also reflecting on how the same is true of all sense-plane dhammas. Whether it's ditthi or panna arising now, they are both paritta dhammas, transitory and not worth clinging to or having aversion about. Does this answer your question? Metta, Sarah ======== #84187 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 18-mrt-2008, om 16:27 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > The development of vipassan� is not a matter of focussing on > specific objects > >>>> > > First off all, please define what you mean by 'objects'. ------- N: Certain namas or rupas one selects. One is keen on understanding visible object and tries to focus on it, and although one seems to 'see' immediately a person, one ignores the thinking at that moment which is also a dhamma and should also be known. Doubt may arise: is this nama or rupa? Then doubt has to be the object of awareness. ---------- > > A: Vipassana is traditionally focused on anicca->dukkha->anatta . For > that one MUST be focused either on kaya/vedana/citta or Dhamma , or > maybe all of them. For example in a practice of breath meditation, or > even touch-sensation meditation, ALL 4 satipatthanas can and should > be present. > ------- N: Only one object at a time and it is unforseeable which one appears at a particular moment. > Before understanding anicca->dukkha->anatta, it must be known: > which dhammas are anicca->dukkha->anatta. And not all three > characteristics at the same time. Each citta knows only one object > at a time. I see it all as avery gradual development in the course > of the different stages of insight. It can become clearer: this > dhamma has its own conditions for its arising, it is not created by > someone, nobody can manipulate it. -------- > >>> > A: > The Abhidhamma can teach us to develop understanding naturally. > >>> > > NO BOOK OR PERSON CAN DO THAT. They are like a menu, or an > instuction manual can ONLY point the way. It is "YOU" that HAS TO go > through. Period. The knowledge MUST be your own. If simple reading, > or deluding oneself that (I know and see paramattha dhammas). Most of > us have read 1000 times the material enough for arahatship. Yet are > we Arahants? Anagamins? Sakadagamins? Sotapannas? ------ N: Agreed. ------- > > A: .... If reading 1000x of that didn't > make me an Arahant or an Anagamin, then I guess that reading some > more wouldn't do it either. However deep practice is the answer, > after all, cessation of asavas (which prevent clear seeings) happen > from Jhana. After all, Jhana is the crown of the Buddhist path. The > fact that some people resist it means that the defilements are so > strong that they prevent one from practicing... too bad as Jhana is > beneficial to all. ------- N: If one can develop the right jhana, not what a person may take for jhana. But right understanding is the leader of the eightfold Path. Also, the right practice has to begin with right understanding. Nina. #84188 From: "Leo" Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:05 am Subject: diver leoaive Hi I have seen somewhere in Buddhist books, that it says: "diver is my student" I was meditating on that long time and for some time I was not sure about it. Then I came up to a thinking what diver does not like. He might does not like some rocks, debris, junk, different animals swimming there, or crocodiles resting and so on. What else do you think diver might does not like? With Metta Leo #84189 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities nilovg Hi James, Op 19-mrt-2008, om 6:20 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > James: Nina, no offense, but it seems to me that you have wasted your > life with many adhamma things. Your life has been all theory with > little practice. After all these years of studying the Abhidhamma > with KS, would you say that your mind is more purified than before? Or > are you still riddled with the same attachments, anxieties, and fear > of death as before you started? -------- N: We are discussing Dhamma, and it is of no importance what this or that person can realize or not realize. It is not really interesting. This brings us to the core of our misunderstandings about person. ------- > James: The Brahmaviharas doesn't have to do with understanding nama > and rupa. They have to do with understanding "people". ------- N: Can we really understand people? No. We can only understand 'our own' cittas. Are these with pure metta or with selfisch affection? That is essential to know. -------- > James: It is not just clinging, but aversion which must be overcome. > Aversion toward self and others can only come about by SEEING self and > others. ------- N: Aversion is conditioned by clinging. ------- > > It is this clinging to 'our > > important person' that is obstructing the brahmaviharas. > > James: What is obstructing the Brahmaviharas is greed and hatred. > Denying the existence of the person isn't going to overcome that. ------- N: Remember the sutta and all the posts we had: What must we slay if we would live happily? Wrath must we slay. We agree here. But greed and hatred cannot be slain before wrong view of self and person is eradicated. This comes first. This will take a long time, but meanwhile, understanding that we ourselves and others are citta, cetasika and rupa that are ephemeral certainly helps in coping with contrarious persons. ---------- > > J: > Also, being partial : liking this person but not that person, > is in > > the way. It helps to see that we all are only fleeting phenomena. > > James: NO!! The Buddha taught to like all people (metta) equally, > that is the practice of metta- he didn't teach to see people as not > existing! You cannot generate metta if you see beings as not existing. ------ N: to like all people (metta) equally, yes, that is impartiality. I heartily agree. Both others and I are nama and rupa, or, five khandhas. I may have pain, and also the other person may have pain, I can sympathize. I speak of person, but we have learnt that person is five khandhas. There is no contradiction as said before. Seeing beings as existing is eternity view. Seeing them as non- existing is annihilation view, there are conditions for the arising again and again of citta, cetasika and rupa. But these do not last, they are not eternal. -------- > > We > > are born, and live here for a short while, then we all have to > depart > > to another world. Life is too short to quarrel, to find fault with > > one another. It is as short as one moment of citta that arises and > > falls away. > > James: This is just plain weird. The Buddha taught to value and > appreciate this HUMAN LIFE! He taught that it is due to this human > life that we are able to hear, learn, and practice the Dhamma. You > cannot have appreciation for this human birth and life if you believe > that it doesn't exist...or that it is only as long as one citta! ---------- N: I do not say that it does not exist. One citta is succeeded by a following citta, there is a connection in the stream of cittas. Now we are on the human plane of existance and we have to opportunity to hear the Dhamma. This is very precious. --------- > J: And, > Mindfulness of Death, of a BEING'S DEATH, builds the sense of samvegga > which is so important to Buddhist practice. ------- N: Agreed. It can remind us that we meet in this life actually for a very short time. You and I can exchange views only for a very short time. Lodewijk said the other day: Howard and James always have a point. It is good you bring up all these points. Nina. > > That reminds not to waste our life away with adhamma things. > > #84190 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear Nina, I'm still considering aspects of this question, especially that regarding a 'future object'. Here you cite: N: "Text Vis.:Herein, 'according to continuity', that included in a single cognitive series, a single impulsion, a single attainment, and that occurring in association with an objective field of one kind[77], is 'present'. Before that is 'past'. Subsequent is 'future'." Scott: In Dhammasa"nga.nii (p. 249): "[1039] What are the states that are future? The states that are unborn, that have not become, not been gotten, nor created, nor re-created, nor made manifest, that have not arisen, nor come to pass, nor happened, nor supervened; that have not arrived, and are classed among things that have not arrived." Scott: I find in Atthasalaalinii (p. 60): "In the triplet of 'Past', this word means passed beyond (a) their own characteristics, or (b) the momentary states beginning with the nascent instant. By 'future' is meant 'has not yet reached those two conditions'. By 'present' is meant 'uprisen in dependence upon this or that cause'." Scott: In Sammohavinodanii (p.49): "...they have a future object through being instigated by future [aggregates, etc.]; Scott: Can you say more regarding future object? What are these classified as? How does citta in the mind-door cognize an object that is future? Sincerely, Scott. #84191 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Nina) - As I read this post I find myself as very much like Tevya the milkman in Fiddler on the Roof, who, on hearing two disputants taking opposite positions, says to each in turn "You'r right!" and "Yes, you're right too!" LOLOL! In a message dated 3/19/2008 1:20:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Nina, I disagree with everything you write here. One of us must have a serious misunderstanding of the Dhamma: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Op 12-mrt-2008, om 2:28 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > When one has fully developed the Brahma-viharas, > > then he/she can turn the mind toward mentality and materiality, not > > before. > ----- > N: I appreciate it that you value much the brahmaviharas. > By having more understanding of nama and rupa it can support the > brahmaviharas. James: The Brahmaviharas doesn't have to do with understanding nama and rupa. They have to do with understanding "people". -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's true that it has to do with understanding people. The brahmaviharas do not pertain to namas and rupas in isolation. OTOH, what does the understanding of people involve if not the intertwined knowning and known, the namas & rupas, that make up the people? Were the seeing, hearing, tasting smelling, bodily experiencing, and cognizing of mental features and operations and projections, and their objects be removed, what would be left of the people who are the objects of the divine abidings? -------------------------------------------------------- Clinging to the importance of self can lessen by > seeing self and person as nama and rupa. James: It is not just clinging, but aversion which must be overcome. Aversion toward self and others can only come about by SEEING self and others. It is this clinging to 'our > important person' that is obstructing the brahmaviharas. James: What is obstructing the Brahmaviharas is greed and hatred. Denying the existence of the person isn't going to overcome that. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: True! But seeing the true nature of persons as mere aggregations of fleeting phenomena will serve as a remedy. ----------------------------------------------------------- > Also, being partial : liking this person but not that person, is in > the way. It helps to see that we all are only fleeting phenomena. James: NO!! The Buddha taught to like all people (metta) equally, that is the practice of metta- he didn't teach to see people as not existing! You cannot generate metta if you see beings as not existing. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, it's not clear to me that at this point Nina is saying that people don't exist, though she may do so elsewhere. It seems to me that at the moment she is just pointing to the ungraspable nature of people. ----------------------------------------------------------- We > are born, and live here for a short while, then we all have to depart > to another world. Life is too short to quarrel, to find fault with > one another. It is as short as one moment of citta that arises and > falls away. James: This is just plain weird. The Buddha taught to value and appreciate this HUMAN LIFE! He taught that it is due to this human life that we are able to hear, learn, and practice the Dhamma. You cannot have appreciation for this human birth and life if you believe that it doesn't exist...or that it is only as long as one citta! And, Mindfulness of Death, of a BEING'S DEATH, builds the sense of samvegga which is so important to Buddhist practice. That reminds not to waste our life away with adhamma things. James: Nina, no offense, but it seems to me that you have wasted your life with many adhamma things. Your life has been all theory with little practice. After all these years of studying the Abhidhamma with KS, would you say that your mind is more purified than before? Or are you still riddled with the same attachments, anxieties, and fear of death as before you started? > Nina. > Metta, James ================================ With metta, Howard #84192 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Insignificant (paritta.m) dhammas hantun1 Dear Sarah, You have answered my question very well! But one thing troubles me. It is very true with sense objects, for example, what you have written. But when you say, “Now I'm also reflecting on how the same is true of all sense-plane dhammas. Whether it's ditthi or panna arising now, they are both paritta dhammas, transitory and not worth clinging to or having aversion about.” it is difficult for me to regard ALL sense plane dhammas as paritta dhammas. It may be due to my lack of real understanding. But to consider panna or mahaa kusala cittas associated with ~naana without which one cannot attain magga ~naana, as insignificant dhammas, is too much for me. I am not disagreeing with you; I even admire you more for your understanding. I am only saying about my own shortcomings. Respectfully, Han #84193 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:21 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 6. Everything is Dhamma. Acharn Sujin reminded us time and again that everything is dhamma. Gradually these words have become more meaningful to us. We have many moments of ignorance and forgetfulness of dhammas, but this should not discourage us. We shall come to understand that also such moments are conditioned. Acharn Sujin explained that we may notice that we have attachment, lobha, but that this is different from the actual moment of being aware of the characteristic that is attached. She said: “Even when we can tell that we have lobha, there is still the idea of my lobha... We cannot do anything because it has arisen already. We should understand that each reality that appears has arisen and that nobody created it.” So long as we are only thinking about realities we are drowning in the ocean of concepts. When one of our friends asked her what we can do, she answered: “We should understand more deeply the word dhamma or element, dhåtu, as non-self. We should develop understanding based on hearing, studying and considering, so that there are conditions for the arising of right awareness. But awareness will not arise because of our intention to be aware.” So long as we do not clearly distinguish the characteristic of nåma from the characteristic of rúpa, we shall not know precisely what kusala is and what akusala. We can begin to be aware of different realities, but we may not know them yet as dhammas devoid of self. Acharn Sujin said: ”Whatever we say about lobha is only thinking. Realities arise and fall away very quickly. Instead of trying to pinpoint and ask ourselves whether this is kusala or akusala there must be the understanding of nåma and rúpa. One thinks that one knows what kusala is, but it is not known as dhamma, it is still ‘me’.” Listening and considering, again and again, these are the right conditions for the arising of awareness and direct understanding. We can consider Dhamma in the midst of our activities. Daily life is full of pungent reminders that brings us back to reality: to dhamma now. Some dhammas are pleasant and we cling to them, some are unwelcome, like sickness, death or the daily news we read, and on account of these we have distress or sadness. But we should not ignore any of these reminders. If we do, we are really negligent. ******* Nina. #84194 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/19/2008 5:39:21 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Scott: Can you say more regarding future object? What are these classified as? How does citta in the mind-door cognize an object that is future? Sincerely, Scott. ...................................................... Hi Scott Butting in here... The mind does not cognize an object that is future. The mind "imagines" the future (as in imagining or wanting things to be this way or that way) and cognizes that "present" imagination. This plays to my point that "part" of insight development is applying conditionality principles to imaginations (inferences) of past and future, near and far, internal, and external. Some of which are directly observable, some of which are not. BUT...the "imaginations" are present mental constructs. We can obviously only be in the present time. What does this mean? It means that a good portion of the Buddha's teachings are NOT aimed at "knowing present realities in terms of namas and rupas." Indeed, much of insight is using the imagination to REALIZE the futility of "this situation/samsara." This is why you get the Buddha as saying things like -- the 5 khandhas are murderous, poison, darts, disease, tumors, etc., and then saying that THIS is seeing them "as they really are." Ven. Sariputta describes the reflection on "this type" of insight as part of the path that leads all the way to arahatship. SN -- Connected Discourses, vol 1, pg 970 This is not to say that these types of reflections are not internalized into direct awareness of bodily and mental processes. Yet, they are an important part of insight development and insight practice...if we are to believe the hundreds of Suttas that deal with the issue in this manner. Of course, you'll have to get someone to translate all this into "Abhidhammeze" for you to be satisfied with it I'm sure. ;-) TG #84195 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive nilovg Dear Scott, I have been looking at Vis. Ch XIV, about the khandhas being past, present, future. When we read the words past, present future of the khandhas, it may sound very general. But the texts speak about moments as far as the khandhas are concerned. See below. Op 19-mrt-2008, om 12:39 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I find in Atthasalaalinii (p. 60): > > "In the triplet of 'Past', this word means passed beyond (a) their own > characteristics, or (b) the momentary states beginning with the > nascent instant. By 'future' is meant 'has not yet reached those two > conditions'. By 'present' is meant 'uprisen in dependence upon this > or that cause'." > > Scott: In Sammohavinodanii (p.49): > > "...they have a future object through being instigated by future > [aggregates, etc.]; -------- N: Pe Maung Tin: <...states [dhammas] may be past, present,or future. But such distinctions, in the case of moment and its function, are due, not to the states, but to the moment itself. Or, at the moment of performing its own function is present matter. Previous to that is future matter, subsequent to that is past matter.> Text Vis.: 'According to moment, etc.: that feeling included in the trio of moments, which is in between the past time and the future time, and which is performing its own function, is 'present'. Before that is 'past'. Subsequent is future. --------------------------- N: Each citta that falls away conditions the arising of the following one. When it has not yet arisen it is still future, but it is sure to come. Before a dhamma arises, there are conditions so that it will arise. When there is through insight direct understanding of dhammas as conditioned dhammas, the fact of future will have more meaning. We cannot catch these three moments, but they indicate the impermanence. Through insight one comes to realize the arising and falling away of dhammas and then one will have more understanding of past, present and future. If insight has not been developed one does not realize the falling away of citta and the arising of the succeeding citta. ----- S: Scott: Can you say more regarding future object? What are these classified as? How does citta in the mind-door cognize an object that is future? ------- N: We cannot try to know a future object, but we can learn the meaning of the fact that ephemeral condiitoned dhammas are subject to being past, present future. There is a very special case that a person can resolve a future event, but this is not helpful for our daily life. Someone who will enter cessation can resolve the time he will emerge and it is also sure which citta will arise then, the phalacitta, fruition-consciousness. Nina. #84196 From: "colette" Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Insignificant (paritta.m) dhammas ksheri3 Dear Sarah and Han, I'm deep into something right now but check the msg. board so that I can maintain perspective and don't get too polarized. I don't want to go further than the statement > Han, > > --- han tun wrote: > > Anyway, I look at my books for parittaa dhammaas, and > > I found the following. colette: WHAT? C'mon, the Theravadan's prescribe "experience" and they do a little prescription of "meditation" BUT both are negliatiable without the other. WOW, I SEE IT! Oh, slow down, the result of my vision is not because of one thing or the other it is because I have stayed in a meditative state for so long. Now there are gonna be people that want to define what the characteristics of a meditative state are but they are never practiced meditation nor have they practiced any form of deep thought. They are simply like any neophyte making excuses for the process they try to analyse. In the flash of an eye -- WOW, the reality I just saw here, today, at this second. THIS IS FUN AND I CAN'T WAIT TO LAUGH AT WHAT I KNOW WILL BECOME JOKES, HUMOROUS THOUGHTS, IN THE FUTURE. toodles, colette > > > > 1026: katame dhammaa parittaa? Sabbeva kaamaavacaraa > > kusalaa akusalaa byaakataa dhammaa ruupakkhandho – pe > > – vi~n~naa.nakkhandho ime dhammaa parittaa. > > > > Han: It means kaamaavacara cittas (54), associated > > cetasikas, and all ruupas. <.....> #84197 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (24) - a question nilovg Dear Han, Op 18-mrt-2008, om 16:12 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I can say that I do not expect something good for > myself, and I will not be upset when things are not > the way I would like them to be. As I age, I am less > and less expecting anything or wishing anything the > way I like them to be. Whatever kamma is due it will > just be vipaaka, the results of my past kusala and > akusala. ------- N: Yes, it is helpful if one can realize that pleasant and unpleasant experiences through the senses are just vipaaka. However, the latent tendencies pose a grave problem. They can condition the arising of akusala citta, even of great intensity, in a way that is unforeseeable. That is why we never know how we shall react to different happenings. We may be in great pains and unable to think clearly. You described the situation of being in hospital so well. Now we are reasonably healthy, and we can use this opportunity to gain a little more understanding of dhammas. This understanding will be accumulated so that it can arise again and grow. Nina. #84198 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (24) - a question hantun1 Dear Nina, > (1) Nina: However, the latent tendencies pose a grave problem. They can condition the arising of akusala citta, even of great intensity, in a way that is unforeseeable. That is why we never know how we shall react to different happenings. > (2) Nina: Now we are reasonably healthy, and we can use this opportunity to gain a little more understanding of dhammas. This understanding will be accumulated so that it can arise again and grow. Han: Your above comment and advice are well taken. Thank you very much, Nina. Respectfully, Han #84199 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:54 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,247 Vism.XVII,248 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII [How Craving is a Condition for Clinging] 247. For the first in a single way; But for the three remaining kinds In sevenfold or eightfold way. 248. As regards the four kinds of clinging taught in this way, craving for sense desires is a condition in one way, as decisive-support, for the first kind, namely, sense-desire clinging, because it arises in relation to the objective field in which craving delights. But it is a condition in seven ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, association, presence, non-disappearance, and root-cause, or in eight ways, as [those and] decisive-support as well, for the remaining three kinds. And when it is a condition as decisive-support, then it is never conascent. This is the detailed explanation of the clause 'With craving as condition, clinging'. ************************ 247. ta.nhaa ca purimassettha, ekadhaa hoti paccayo. sattadhaa a.t.thadhaa vaapi, hoti sesattayassa saa.. 248. ettha ca eva.m desite upaadaanacatukke purimassa kaamupaadaanassa kaamata.nhaa upanissayavasena ekadhaava paccayo hoti, ta.nhaabhinanditesu visayesu uppattito. sesattayassa pana sahajaata a~n~nama~n~na nissaya sampayutta atthi avigatahetuvasena sattadhaa vaa, upanissayena saha a.t.thadhaa vaapi paccayo hoti. yadaa ca saa upanissayavasena paccayo hoti, tadaa asahajaataava hotiiti. aya.m ta.nhaapaccayaa upaadaananti padasmi.m vitthaarakathaa.