#84200 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Nina (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > -------- > N: We are discussing Dhamma, and it is of no importance what this or > that person can realize or not realize. It is not really interesting. James: Well, it is interesting to me. Nina, you make all sorts of claims about the Dhamma but you don't back them up with quotes from the suttas as support. So, if this is what you sincerely believe, surely you must have some basis for this belief. What benefit have you personally found from your study of the Abhidhamma? If you truly want to help me, then you have to tell me. I can tell you all about what I have achieved, and failed to achieve, from my personal Buddhist practice. I will give you every single detail you might be interested to know. Why won't you do the same? > This brings us to the core of our misunderstandings about person. James: I don't see how. Are you saying you have nothing to reveal because you don't really exist? That would be kinda boring. :-) > ------- > > > James: The Brahmaviharas doesn't have to do with understanding nama > > and rupa. They have to do with understanding "people". > ------- > N: Can we really understand people? No. We can only understand 'our > own' cittas. Are these with pure metta or with selfisch affection? > That is essential to know. James: I am going to explain about this using a sutta, below. > -------- > > James: It is not just clinging, but aversion which must be overcome. > > Aversion toward self and others can only come about by SEEING self and > > others. > ------- > N: Aversion is conditioned by clinging. > ------- > > > > It is this clinging to 'our > > > important person' that is obstructing the brahmaviharas. > > > > James: What is obstructing the Brahmaviharas is greed and hatred. > > Denying the existence of the person isn't going to overcome that. > ------- > N: Remember the sutta and all the posts we had: What must we slay if > we would live happily? Wrath must we slay. We agree here. But greed > and hatred cannot be slain before wrong view of self and person is > eradicated. This comes first. James: No, this doesn't come first. I will give an example below with a sutta. > This will take a long time, but meanwhile, understanding that we > ourselves and others are citta, cetasika and rupa that are ephemeral > certainly helps in coping with contrarious persons. James: I really don't see how. This is just a mind game. Can you give me some examples from the suttas? Has this personally worked for you? Are you no longer bothered, or hardly bothered, by contentious people because you see them as only citta, cetasika, and rupa? Please, give me something to go on here!! > ---------- > > > > J: > Also, being partial : liking this person but not that person, > > is in > > > the way. It helps to see that we all are only fleeting phenomena. > > > > James: NO!! The Buddha taught to like all people (metta) equally, > > that is the practice of metta- he didn't teach to see people as not > > existing! You cannot generate metta if you see beings as not existing. > ------ > N: to like all people (metta) equally, yes, that is impartiality. I > heartily agree. Both others and I are nama and rupa, or, five > khandhas. I may have pain, and also the other person may have pain, I > can sympathize. I speak of person, but we have learnt that person is > five khandhas. There is no contradiction as said before. > Seeing beings as existing is eternity view. James: No, that isn't eternity view Seeing them as non- > existing is annihilation view, James: No, that isn't annihilation view. Seeing beings as eternal (with an eternal soul) is eternity view. Seeing the death of beings as the final end is annihilation view, or nihilism. Seeing beings as not existing at all is just plain nuts!! ;-)) there are conditions for the arising > again and again of citta, cetasika and rupa. But these do not last, > they are not eternal. > -------- > > > > We > > > are born, and live here for a short while, then we all have to > > depart > > > to another world. Life is too short to quarrel, to find fault with > > > one another. It is as short as one moment of citta that arises and > > > falls away. > > > > James: This is just plain weird. The Buddha taught to value and > > appreciate this HUMAN LIFE! He taught that it is due to this human > > life that we are able to hear, learn, and practice the Dhamma. You > > cannot have appreciation for this human birth and life if you believe > > that it doesn't exist...or that it is only as long as one citta! > ---------- > N: I do not say that it does not exist. One citta is succeeded by a > following citta, there is a connection in the stream of cittas. Now > we are on the human plane of existance and we have to opportunity to > hear the Dhamma. This is very precious. James: Nina, I just don't know what the devil your position is!! You keep changing it!! At least Sarah is consistent with her position. According to the Vism. and the commentaries, people don't exist. Period. (Suffering exists but no sufferer..etc.) Now, you can either agree or disagree with that position. I disagree. But, it seems to me, that you both agree and disagree with that position. Along with Howard, I am very confused about what you really believe. > --------- > > J: And, > > Mindfulness of Death, of a BEING'S DEATH, builds the sense of samvegga > > which is so important to Buddhist practice. > ------- > N: Agreed. It can remind us that we meet in this life actually for a > very short time. You and I can exchange views only for a very short > time. > Lodewijk said the other day: Howard and James always have a point. It > is good you bring up all these points. James: Well, I hope I have a point of some sort- but the question is do I have a correct point or an incorrect point?? Does Lodewijk agree or disagree with me? Frankly, Nina, I can't tell if you agree or disagree with me because I can't pin down a firm position. Anyway, I promised a sutta to explain my position so here it is, "In Brief" : Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & resolute." "But it is in just this way that some worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, think they should tag along right behind me." James: As a side note, I think that this statement says a lot about how the Buddha taught. He didn't want to just talk and talk and talk about the Dhamma so that his students might become enlightened by "listening". He wanted to teach the Dhamma and then have the student go away and practice on his/her own. Those who just stuck around him wanting to hear more and more instruction he called "worthless". KS and her mp3 listening students should take heed of this. Going back to the sutta: "May the Blessed One teach me the Dhamma in brief! May the One Well-gone teach me the Dhamma in brief! It may well be that I will understand the Blessed One's words. It may well be that I will become an heir to the Blessed One's words." "Then, monk, you should train yourself thus: 'My mind will be established inwardly, well-composed. No evil, unskillful qualities, once they have arisen, will remain consuming the mind.' That's how you should train yourself. James: So, one should begin practice with the thought or the intention of purifying the mind. This is the goal. To continue with the sutta: "Then you should train yourself thus: 'Good-will, as my awareness-release, will be developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should then train yourself thus: 'Compassion, as my awareness-release... Appreciation, as my awareness-release... Equanimity, as my awareness-release, will be developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. James: Then one should develop the Brahma-viharas as much as possible to the point of jhana. And remember, this is the Dhamma, in brief. What one should do to practice the Dhamma. To return to the sutta: "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should then train yourself thus: 'I will remain focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should train yourself: 'I will remain focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. James: Then, after development of the Brahma-viharas, one should begin concentration of the Four Foundation of Mindfulness (citta, cetasika, and rupa). Notice that this is supposed to occur AFTER AFTER AFTER the development of the Brahma-viharas!! This is how the Buddha taught the Dhamma in brief. To state that one cannot develop the Brahma-viharas until after mindfulness of dhammas is a perversion and a misstatement of what the Buddha taught! So, Nina, you misrepresent the Buddha- and you provide nothing to support what you say. That is a travesty. Anyway, to go back to the sutta: "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, then wherever you go, you will go in comfort. Wherever you stand, you will stand in comfort. Wherever you sit, you will sit in comfort. Wherever you lie down, you will lie down in comfort." Then that monk, having been admonished by an admonishment from the Blessed One, got up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, keeping the Blessed One to his right side, and left. Then, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus he became another one of the arahants. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.063.than.html James: So, that is the Dhamma in brief. Resolve to purify the mind; develop the Brahma-viharas; and then develop mindfulness of dhammas. This is the gradual path to enlightenment. Now, why the Theravada tradition seemed to think that it could just do away with the Brahma-viharas is beyond me. And why the Mahayana tradition seemed to think that the Buddha didn't teach the Brahma-viharas and so the original Dhamma is a "lesser vehicle" is also beyond me. I guess people just see what they want to see. But, if you look clearly at what the Buddha taught, it is all there and it is all complete. Metta, James #84201 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James (and Nina) - > > As I read this post I find myself as very much like Tevya the milkman in > Fiddler on the Roof, who, on hearing two disputants taking opposite > positions, says to each in turn "You'r right!" and "Yes, you're right too!" LOLOL! :-) I know what you mean! I wrote a long post to you and Nina addressing this issue. Metta, James #84202 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:56 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities kenhowardau Hi Howard (James and Nina), --------- <. . .> Nina: > > > It helps to see that we all are only fleeting phenomena. >>> James: > > NO!! The Buddha taught to like all people (metta) equally, that is the practice of metta- he didn't teach to see people as not existing! You cannot generate metta if you see beings as not existing. >> Howard: > Mmm, it's not clear to me that at this point Nina is saying that people don't exist, though she may do so elsewhere. > --------- I don't know how it could be so hard to understand what Nina has been saying all of these years. In truth and reality (or, "In the world described by the Buddha") there are no people - there are only fleeting phenomena. What is so hard about that? If some of us want to satirise this understanding in a juvenile way (eg., by saying "You won't mind if I take your wallet since neither you or your wallet exists") that is their problem. A biblical response to that kind of nonsense would be "Thou sayest it." I think the Buddha's response was, "I do not deny it" (i.e., "I do not deny that people and wallets exist"). He didn't confirm their existence either. Instead of either confirming or denying the conventionally known world the Buddha described a middle-way world of paramattha dhammas. ----------- H: > It seems to me that at the moment she is just pointing to the ungraspable nature of people. ------------ Would you mind explaining what you mean by that? In what sense are people ungraspable by nature? Perhaps you mean dhammas are ungraspable. (?) That could be a correct thing to say, I don't know. It sounds familiar, but I can't think of the context. I do know, however, that lobha performs the function of grasping. It sticks to its object 'like meat to a hot pan.' But I am probably wide of the mark. You are probably saying something very different when you refer to the "ungraspable nature of people [or dhammas]." Ken H #84203 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:11 pm Subject: Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the further discussion: TG: "The mind does not cognize an object that is future. The mind 'imagines' the future (as in imagining or wanting things to be this way or that way) and cognizes that 'present' imagination..." Scott: So in this case, concept is object of mind-door consciousness. I take it that the 'imagining' and 'wanting things to be this way or that way' are (i) synonymous, and (ii) in reference to concepts. TG: "...This plays to my point that 'part' of insight development is applying conditionality principles to imaginations (inferences) of past and future, near and far, internal, and external. Some of which are directly observable, some of which are not..." Scott: The above view of conditionality does not correspond to that set out in Pa.t.thaana. Or do you mean to refer to conditional relations? 'Conditionality principles' are in process but not subject to being 'applied'. Conditionality *is* the process - the dynamics of arising, presence and ceasing. To me this is 'thought about'. I concede that pariyatti is learning and thinking about, but there has to be pa~n~naa from the beginning; thinking is not enough. TG: "...BUT...the 'imaginations' are present mental constructs. We can obviously only be in the present time." Scott: Okay, I see what you are getting at here. TG: "...What does this mean? It means that a good portion of the Buddha's teachings are NOT aimed at "knowing present realities in terms of namas and rupas." Scott: I don't see how the above conclusion is reached. Is it being suggested that proliferating concepts and 'knowing' these concepts is the teaching? TG: "...Indeed, much of insight is using the imagination to REALIZE the futility of 'this situation/samsara.'..." Scott: The use of 'insight' here is idiosyncratic. The notion that insight 'uses' imagination is rather confused. Is the suggestion here that something called 'insight' arises at the same time as something called 'imagination' and then makes use of this 'imagination' somehow in order to 'realize' something, also going on during the same unspecified temporal span? This is not a theory about momentaneity, that's for sure. This theory postulates quasi-permanent, multiply-present dhammas which change *over an indeterminate period of time*. This portion of the thesis definitely cannot be translated into Abhidhammmeze! ;-) TG: "...This is why you get the Buddha as saying things like -- the 5 khandhas are murderous, poison, darts, disease, tumors, etc., and then saying that THIS is seeing them 'as they really are.' Ven. Sariputta describes the reflection on "this type" of insight as part of the path that leads all the way to arahatship. SN -- Connected Discourses, vol 1, pg 970" Scott: "...a virtuous bhikkhu should carefully attend to the five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as disinegrating, as empty, as nonself..." "...bhikkhunaa sa~nacupaadaanakkhandhaa aniccato dukkhato rogato ga.n.dato sallato aghato aabaadhato parato palokato su~n~nato anattato yoniso manasikaatabbaa..." As you can see, the sutta refers to yoniso manasikaara - which is a special form of attention (manasikaara-cetasika) which serves as condition for the arising of pa~n~naa, and pa~n~naa, in turn, penetrates a given dhamma and 'sees' it as impermanent, suffering, and nonself as per its characteristic and function. Again, the sutta does not support what it is said to support in the above assertion. This is not about 'reflection' (paccavekkhana). TG: "...This is not to say that these types of reflections are not internalized into direct awareness of bodily and mental processes. Yet, they are an important part of insight development and insight practice...if we are to believe the hundreds of Suttas that deal with the issue in this manner." Scott: Again, quasi-permanent, multiply-present dhammas with interactive dynamics are incompatible with momentaneity. I remain unable to see the view as anything other than a form of thinking. What am I missing? Sincerely, Scott. #84204 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:15 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (111) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - This is the continuation of Chapter 3 The Perfection of Renunciation. We can understand that it is most difficult to be free from clinging to the sense objects, because even training oneself to decrease clinging is already difficult. Therefore, we should develop moral strength so that all the perfections can assist satipaěěhaana to be aware more often of the characteristics of realities in daily life. If we have patience we can endure the experience of heat or cold. When the weather is hot, we do not need to make special efforts to have a cold bath, or when it is cold, we do not need a warm bath. For some people it may be necessary for their body to take care of the right temperature of their bath. However, when this is not the case, we may be attached to the temperature of the water. Some people, when they have a warm bath, feel comfortable and pleasant; even though their body is strong and they do not need a warm bath, they like to have this pleasant sensation. Or sometimes they take pleasure in having a cold bath. When someone understands the perfection of renunciation, he can have more endurance, no matter whether he experiences heat or cold. He also needs the perfections of patience and of energy. Nobody can tell someone else to give up attachment to sense pleasures, nor can one tell oneself to do this, but it must be pa~n~naa which understands the true meaning of the perfection of renunciation. We read in the “Jatuka.n.nimaa.navapucchaa”, Jatuka.n.nii’s Questions, of the Cuulaniddesa, “Khuddhaka Nikaaya”: “(There is) renunciation, nekkhamma (when there is) seeing, seeing clearly, comparing, considering, developing, so that one clearly understands the right practice, the proper practice, the practice that is an enemy [1], the practice that is beneficial, the practice of Dhamma according to the Dhamma that leads to purity of siila. (There is renunciation, when there is) the guarding of the sense doors 2 , moderation in eating, the application of energy so that one is alert and awake, sati-sampaja~n~na (sati and pa~n~naa). (There is renunciation, when there are) the four applications of mindfulness, the four right efforts, the four bases of success, the five spiritual faculties, the five powers, the seven factors of enlightenment, the eight Path factors [2], nibbaana and the practice leading to nibbaana. (When there is renunciation) with happiness, (there is) resistance, a refuge, a protection, no danger, unshakableness, the deathlessness, a dhamma departing from clinging, which is like a thread that fastens. Having seen(all this), there is renunciation with happiness.” Note [1] An enemy, opposed to attachment. Note [2] The four bases of success, iddhipaadas, are: wish-to-do, chanda, energy, viriya, citta and vimamsa, investigation. The four right efforts, sammaa-padhaanas, are: the effort of avoiding akusala, of overcoming akusala, of developing kusala and maintaining kusala. The five (spiritual) faculties, indriyas, are: confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. Indriya means leader, ruler or controlling faculty. The faculties are “leaders”, each in their own field. The five powers, balas, are the same realities as the five spiritual faculties, indriyas, but when the indriyas have been developed so that they are unshakeable by their opposites, they have become powers. The seven factors of enlightenment are: sati, investigation of the Dhamma (dhamma-vicaya), energy (viriya), rapture (piiti), tranquility (passaddhi), concentration (samaadhi) and equanimity (upekkhaa). All these thirty-seven factors, bodhipakkhiya dhammas, are the factors pertaining to enlightenment; if they are developed, they lead to enlightenment. To be continued. Metta, Han #84205 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Scott I'll be leaving in 3 days ... for 9 days, so folks can have a break. A few comments below... In a message dated 3/19/2008 9:12:14 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Scott: The above view of conditionality does not correspond to that set out in Pa.t.thaana. Or do you mean to refer to conditional relations? 'Conditionality principles' are in process but not subject to being 'applied'. Conditionality *is* the process - the dynamics of arising, presence and ceasing. To me this is 'thought about'. I concede that pariyatti is learning and thinking about, but there has to be pa~n~naa from the beginning; thinking is not enough. .......................................................... NEW TG: Actually, I pretty much agree with the gist of this. ....................................................... TG: "...BUT...the 'imaginations' are present mental constructs. We can obviously only be in the present time." Scott: Okay, I see what you are getting at here. TG: "...What does this mean? It means that a good portion of the Buddha's teachings are NOT aimed at "knowing present realities in terms of namas and rupas." Scott: I don't see how the above conclusion is reached. Is it being suggested that proliferating concepts and 'knowing' these concepts is the teaching? TG: "...Indeed, much of insight is using the imagination to REALIZE the futility of 'this situation/samsara.the f Scott: The use of 'insight' here is idiosyncratic. The notion that insight 'uses' imagination is rather confused. Is the suggestion here that something called 'insight' arises at the same time as something called 'imagination' and then makes use of this 'imagination' somehow in order to 'realize' something, also going on during the same unspecified temporal span? ......................................................... NEW TG: Hey Scott, with all due respect to both of us, we're so far apart in the way we look at it that to try to unravel the above questions would probably takes weeks and I'm not patient enough. LOL I will say again though, my outlooks are primarily based on what is presented in the Suttas and the way it is presented. But I have trouble trying to get you, Sarah, or Nina deal with "insight" applications of -- future, past, far, external; or why the Buddha mixes terms like tumor, dart, poison, murderous, etc. with impermanence, suffering, nonself when he tells us that the elements should be seen as such. Some more comments below... ............................................... This is not a theory about momentaneity, that's for sure. This theory postulates quasi-permanent, multiply-present dhammas which change *over an indeterminate period of time*. This portion of the thesis definitely cannot be translated into Abhidhammmeze! ;-) TG: "...This is why you get the Buddha as saying things like -- the 5 khandhas are murderous, poison, darts, disease, tumors, etc., and then saying that THIS is seeing them 'as they really are.' Ven. Sariputta describes the reflection on "this type" of insight as part of the path that leads all the way to arahatship. SN -- Connected Discourses, vol 1, pg 970" Scott: "...a virtuous bhikkhu should carefully attend to the five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as disinegrating, as empty, as nonself..." "...bhikkhunaa sa~nacupaadaanakkha"...bhikkhunaa sa~nacupaad ga.n.dato sallato aghato aabaadhato parato palokato su~n~nato anattato yoniso manasikaatabbaa.yon As you can see, the sutta refers to yoniso manasikaara - which is a special form of attention (manasikaara-special form of attention condition for the arising of pa~n~naa, and pa~n~naa, in turn, penetrates a given dhamma and 'sees' it as impermanent, suffering, and nonself as per its characteristic and function. Again, the sutta does not support what it is said to support in the above assertion. This is not about 'reflection' (paccavekkhana)i ..................................................... NEW TG: Were the terms -- disease, tumor, dart, and alien addressed? Can one insightfully see "consciousness," for example, as a dart or tumor from your point of view? Aren't those symbolic representations? Or do you think the Buddha literally thought we should see consciousness as a "Dart" and that THIS is consciousness's "characteristic and function" and seeing consciousness for what it really is? So maybe we should throw "consciousness" at dart boards? ;-) Dart is meant to express something that causes pain. But as a teaching, one needs to take the idea "dart" and convert it to seeing something that is causing pain. This conversion is a conceptual process. I believe the reason these types of terms are used is to "jolt" or almost "shock" a mind into a more mindful and deeply insightful disposition, and try to bring about revulsion and detachment. I have failed to get you to deal with these types of terms in the past so I'm not counting on a response here, but maybe you could surprise me? ....................................................................... TG: "...This is not to say that these types of reflections are not internalized into direct awareness of bodily and mental processes. Yet, they are an important part of insight development and insight practice...if we are to believe the hundreds of Suttas that deal with the issue in this manner." Scott: Again, quasi-permanent, multiply-present dhammas with interactive dynamics are incompatible with momentaneity. I remain unable to see the view as anything other than a form of thinking. What am I missing? .............................................................. NEW TG: I actually didn't understand this comment or understand how it applies to my comment above. It sounded kind of cool though! I think I agree with the first sentence, but being I don't understand what its referring to, I'm not so sure. TG OUT #84206 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:09 pm Subject: The 7 Sequentially! bhikkhu0 Friends: How do the 7 Links to Awakening develop Sequentially? 1: Whenever withdrawn in body and withdrawn in mind one reflects on the Buddha-Dhamma, then the Awareness Link to Awakening arise and develop. Thus aware one examines that! 2: Whenever examining a mental state, then the Investigation Link to Awakening arises and develops. While thus being curious & enthusiastically investigating, keen energy is aroused! 3: Whenever energy is aroused in one who is enthusiastic, then the Energy Link to Awakening arise and develop. While energetic & enthusiastic one succeeds: Therefore Joy is born! 4: Whenever succeeding in enthusiastic joy, then the Joy Link to Awakening arise & develop. One thus joyous becomes mentally satisfied and therefore calmed both in body and mind! 5: Whenever calmed in body & mind, then the Tranquillity Link to Awakening arise & develop. One thus satisfied, calmed, serene, settled & tranquil in both body & mind becomes happy! 6: Whenever calmed & comfortable in body & tranquil & happy in mind, then the Concentration Link to Awakening arise & develop. Concentrated one reviews all rationally and reasonably! 7: Whenever one well balanced reviews all mental states rationally and reasonably, then the Equanimity Link to Awakening arise & develop. In Equanimity one knows & sees things right. It is in this very way that the seven Links to Awakening develop sequentially, one after the other; successively one leading to & producing the next... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 67-69] section 46: The Links.3: Morality.... Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #84207 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:23 pm Subject: Uttara the Devas Son * rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! Sakyamuni Sambuddha Vihara ~ Dhamma Message ~ Please feel free to distribute this message among your friends, colleagues and relatives. Taken from AccessToInsight.org1 Translated from Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu SUMMARY: Uttara the deva's son (divine being) says to the Lord Buddha that life is swept along, the life-span is very short (next to nothing) in duration, that there is no refuge for one who is subject to old age (all beings are) and seeing danger in approaching death one should do good deeds that bring merit to the doer (good kamma). The Lord Buddha replies that life is swept along, the life-span is very short (next to nothing) in duration, that there is no refuge for one who is subject to old age (all beings are) and seeing danger in approaching death one should stop being fooled by the allure and the bait of the world (essentially sensual pleasures consisting singing, dancing, friends, family, car, houses, etc.) and look (for the lasting) peace (of Nibbana). UTTARA THE DEVA'S SON Samyutta Nikâya 2.19 - Uttara Sutta2 At Rajagaha. As he was standing to one side, Uttara the deva's son recited this verse in the Blessed One's presence: Life is swept along, next-to-nothing its span. For one swept on by aging no shelters exist. Perceiving this danger in death, one should do deeds of merit that bring about bliss. [The Buddha:] Life is swept along, next-to-nothing its span. For one swept to old age no shelters exist. Perceiving this danger in death, one should drop the world's bait and look for peace. Notes 1. More suttas from AcessToInsight.org can be found here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html 2. This sutta can be found in full here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn02/sn02.019.than.html <....> #84208 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:46 pm Subject: Patthaana (26) hantun1 Dear All, We will continue our Patthaana series, and we will now take up (4) Proximity Condition (anantara-paccaya) and (5) Contiguity Condition (samanantara-paccaya) together. These two Conditions belong to “Mind for Mind” group, and are usually taken together, because they are identical in meaning, and they differ only in the letter, which highlights the same relation from slightly different angles. Formally defined, the Proximity Condition is a condition where one mental state (the conditioning state) causes another mental state (the conditioned state) to arise immediately after it has ceased, so that no other mental state can intervene between them. (anantara means having or leaving nothing in between, i.e., immediately following) [Anantara paccaya resembles that of immediate succession to the throne by a crown prince upon the death of a universal monarch.] Contiguity Condition is a condition where one mental state (the conditioning state) causes another mental state (the conditioned state) to arise immediately after it has ceased, in accordance with the fixed order of the mental process. (samanantara = sam +anantara means right or proper + immediately = immediately, but in proper fixed order) [Samanantara-paccaya resembles that of immediate succession to the throne by a crown prince upon the renunciation of a universal monarch.] If you compare the two definitions, you will find that they are identical in the sense that the conditioning state is immediately followed by the conditioned state. But the main difference is the clause “in accordance with the fixed order of the mental process” mentioned in the definition of Contiguity Condition. This is to show the conditioning process mentioned in both the Conditions is not occurring haphazardly but in a fixed order of sequences called citta-niyaama. Niyaama means the “fixedness of law” regarding all things, or the cosmic order. There are five niyaamas: (1) utu-niyaama or the caloric order, regarding temperature, seasons and other physical events; (2) biija-niyaama or the germinal order, regarding the plant life; (3) kamma-niyaama or the moral order; (4) citta-niyaama or the psychical order, regarding cittas and cetasikas; and (5) dhamma-niyaama or natural phenomenal sequence. The character of dhamma niyaama is best summarized in the formula: ‘When that exists, this comes to be. From the arising of that this arises. When that does not exist, this does not come to be. When that ceases, then this ceases.’ Those who want to study the five niyaamas in detail please click on the following link to read Niyaama Dipanii by Ledi Sayadaw. http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL04.html The citta-niyaama will be taken up in the next post. Metta, Han #84209 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: "Self View" is completely different than "Seeing Yourself". .... S: Would you kindly explain the difference? Metta, Sarah ========= #84210 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (20) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, Naturally, I thought you (and the Sayadaw), put the following very well: --- han tun wrote: > Sayadaw Ashin Janakaabhivamsa drew the attention of > the audience to the impersonal nature of the Law of > Causal Relations, with regard to conditioning states > and conditioned states. There is no ‘person’ involved. > For example, (a) citta depends on an object for its > arising; (b) the citta, in the process of cognition, > is nothing other than the act of cognizing, and (c) > there is no “self” in the process of cognition. > Sayadaw repeated this anatta principle again and again > in each of the discourses on 24 Conditions. > > For example, in Object Condition, this aspect of > anatta is evident by the following Pali verse. > (8) Yam yam dhammam aarabbha ye ye dhammaa uppajjanti > cittacetasikaa dhammaa te te dhammaa tesam tesam > dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. > Taking any states as object, these states, > consciousness and mental factors, arise; those > (former) states are related to those (latter) states > by object condition. > > There are only dhammas that are conditioning, and only > dhammas that are conditioned. No ‘person’ is involved. .... S: As I see it, this is exactly the purpose in studying more about conditions - to really appreciate that "No 'person' is involved." Metta, Sarah ======= #84211 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 16th & 18th Feb Bangkok: sharing some thoughts sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > > >A: The trick is to do everything correctly and balance faculties > >>(slight imbalance of which can make all the difference.) > > ... > > S: Again, who or what does this doing? *** >A: Vinnana-nama-rupa, or 5 aggregates. ... S: OK, so back to your original statement, you're saying: "The trick is for Vinnana-nama-rupa, or 5 aggregates to do everything correctly and balance faculties." Is this correct? What does it mean? How do rupas do anything, for a start? .... >A:But with all of this said and > done, what must be done MUST BE DONE. .... S: By 5 khandhas? ... >Using anatta as a strategy not > to do anything since "no body can do anything" is defeating the whole > point of Budddha's teaching - a path towards cessation of all > suffering. .... S: Who or what is "using anatta as a strategy not to do anything"? Metta, Sarah ========= #84212 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing present moment. 11 surefire things for Liberation. Jhana sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- Alex wrote: > >S: 4. Insight preceded by the attainment of jhana is not the only way > of attainemnt. Without checking, I'm pretty sure it's the Yuganadha > Sutta in AN that we're referred to which indicates also the > attainment of jhana preceded by insight, dry-insight etc. > >>>> .... >A: I bet you will also quote Bahiya sutta and other like that. > 1)According to commentaries, Bahiya was a master meditator during > time of Buddha Kassapa. He with his friends have meditated on a > mountain TILL death. In his last existence he was a forest dweller > before hearing a anagamin deva and travelling (1,300 KM or so I've > heard) in ONE NIGHT. So he had clairvoyance, he also had psychic > powers and could travel probably as fast as 108-130 km/h which is > approximately 60+ MPH. Etc etc. If you had such abilities and > meditation skills, then you could too achieve arahatship from hearing. .... S: What is most interesting here is that you refer to the commentaries when it suits your case as here and elsewhere. However, when I and others do, we get one of your lectures about how nothing can be trusted in the AP or commentaries:-)) .... >A: 2) Susima Sutta: says nothing about LACK OF JHANA attainments, those > Arahats have denied only ARUPA and PSYCHIC POWERS. Again, if you were > on THEIR level of Panna, then you TOO could have achieved Arahatship. .... S: So, go to U.P., look under 'Susima' and you'll see that the commentary to this sutta makes it very clear that there had been no jhana attainments. These were sukkha vipassikas. .... > > 3) Yugananda sutta: > NONE of the 4 ways lack samma-samadhi. .... S: There is samma-samadhi accompanying any moments of bhavana, including any moments of satipatthana. This has never been denied by anyone. There is samma-samadhi in the development of samatha and samma-samadhi in the development of the eightfold path. The objects and quality is different, however. .... >The 4th way which you describe > > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness > concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under > control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, > settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is > born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows > the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, > his obsessions destroyed. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.170.than.html > > Note almost a stock phrase "his mind grows steady inwardly, settles > down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born." ..... S: This is referring to magga citta. At such moments the samma-samadhi is equivalent in intensity to appana samadhi (of jhana). I don't see any suggestion here of prior jhana. See the following useful comments of Jon's: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/7821 ....and of course, much more under 'Yuganadha' in U.P.:-)) ..... > >S: 4. It is the insight into the conditioned realities that results in > the destruction of the taints, not the metta or jhana. > > .... > > TRUE! Where here did I say that Jhana itself is nessesery? No where. .... S: I thought you'd been arguing this all along..... OK, we now agree that Jhana itself isn't necessary prior to enlightenment!! ... >A: Buddha didn't ever teach hid disciples samatha for liberation. He > taught Jhana with Insight. For example Anapanasati HAS lots of > INSIGHT steps about 10 steps out of 16 are insight steps. .... S: Yes, the Buddha taught insight to his listeners according to their various backgrounds and accumulations. For those who had developed anapanasati up to jhana, he taught the understanding of the dhammas involved (as namas and rupas). For lay people, he taught about the realities in their lives, according to their accumulations. .... >And if to > be precise, insight isn't a practice it is a result (of Sammadhi). > Samadhi is a practice, seeing things as they are is a result with > Samadhi as a proximate cause (see upanisa sutta). .... S: This is very confused. Samma ditthi and samma samadhi develop together. They condition each other. .... > > Another contradiction between CMA/Commentaries and suttas: Metta can > bring one UP TO 4TH Jhana, compassing to Infinite space, altruistic > joy to infinite consciousness and Equinimity to BASE OF NOTHINGNESS > (7th Jhana). See CDB pg 1607-1609. .... S: I think that the details are only clearly spelled out in the commentaries. Metta and compassion and altruistic joy can only be developed to 4th jhana as I recall, equanimity to 'base of nothingness' as I recal is correct. All the details are in the Vism. You can research it and report back if you have time! When there seems to be a contradiction, consider Alex that it may just be a lack of understanding on our part:-)). Metta, Sarah ======= #84213 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Alex), --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: "....he holds right view, and he experiences pain and grief that > have > right view as condition. On the dissolution of the body, after death, > he > reappears in a happy destination....." > > As I suggested, by decisive support condition, kusala can condition > akusala and vice versa. <...> >H: This makes very good sense to me, at both the commonsense level, > the > direct-life-experience level, and the level of detailed explanation. > Often I get > the impression conveyed, including on DSG at times, that only kusala > comes > from kusala, and akusala from akusala, a position that has never made > sense to > me. .... S: I think this would be referring to the accumulations of kusala and akusala. At a moment of generosity, the tendency to generosity increases and vice versa. However, at any given moment, it will depend on many other conditions which tendency manifests. For example, before there was a discussion about the death of a beloved one and how this can be a condition for samvegga and increased interest in the path. For others, however, it may be a condition for complete despair. I think you also quoted from the Upanissa Sutta before about suffering conditioning faith. Again, there have to be the accumulations and understanding for such faith to develop. So it is true that 'kusala comes from kusala' and akusala from akusala', but other conditions are always involved at any given moment as to what arises. ... > The key fact that I think helps in understanding this and other > matters > is the many(conditioning factors)-to-many(effects) aspect of > conditionality. .... S: Yes, exactly. Metta, Sarah ======== #84214 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive nilovg Hi TG, Op 20-mrt-2008, om 5:42 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > But I have trouble trying to get you, Sarah, or Nina deal with > "insight" > applications of -- future, past, far, external; or why the Buddha > mixes terms > like tumor, dart, poison, murderous, etc. with impermanence, > suffering, nonself > when he tells us that the elements should be seen as such. TG: I believe the reason these types of terms are used is to "jolt" or almost "shock" a mind into a more mindful and deeply insightful disposition, and try to bring about revulsion and detachment. ------- N: These conventional terms are used to encourage us to develop understanding of what appears now: only fleeting elements which we take for very important. As to present, future, past, see my post to Scott. Realizing impermanence is not thinking of decay, thinking of how shortlived this body is. Also people outside Buddhism can think in this way. It is direct realization of the arising and falling away of one nama or rupa at a time by insight. Have a good journey, Nina. #84215 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Nina) - In a message dated 3/19/2008 10:37:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: And why the Mahayana tradition seemed to think that the Buddha didn't teach the Brahma-viharas and so the original Dhamma is a "lesser vehicle" is also beyond me. ============================== I pick up here on one sentence in your post that I think is in error, containing two mistakes: 1) Where did the idea that Mahayana doesn't attribute the divine abidings to the Buddha come from? I've never heard that. I *have* heard the opposite. To see this you could do a Google search on the four immeasurables. In particular you will find the following: <> 2) What was called the lesser (or, really, inferior/small) vehicle was, so far as I know, the old Sarvastivadin school, which certainly failed to properly grasp the teaching of anatta and that was only one among many early schools and not "the original Dhamma." With metta, Howard #84216 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - I jonoabb Hi Alex Alex wrote: >> You seem to be saying that (a) it's possible for the non-self >> characteristic to be seen by intellectual study only, and (b) it is >> by means of developed samadhi that this characteristic is seen. >> I'd be interested to know the textual basis for this. >> > > No further looking than the famous Anattalakkhana > sutta. "Intellectul" study here for ascetics was hearing the sutta. > The practical aspect was done before (meditation perhaps) and after, > when this intellectual knowledge (in this case through ear medium) > was put into action. > Well, this is all inference, if not speculation ;-)). Sorry, but it's not a textual basis for what you've said. >> (To my understanding, the characteristic of "non-self" can only be >> seen by developed panna that directly experiences a presently >> arisen dhamma.) >> > > Yes, this is a higher aspect. Merely hearing is NOT enough. However > those who DO possess Jhana, have superpower mindfulness to really be > able to observe presently arisen dhammas. > You say that jhana gives one "superpower mindfulness to really be able to observe presently arisen dhammas." I think you are conflating samatha and satipatthana/vipassana. Samatha is about the development of tranquillity by virtue of the contemplation of an appropriate (conceptual) object, whereas satipatthana/vipassana is about the direct experience of a presently arisen dhamma. The two are separate and distinct skills, and while the development of one supports the development of the other, the conditions for their development differ. On my reading of the suttas, it is only the person who is already highly skilled in both who can further develop them in tandem. >> The need for panna beyond the level of intellectual understanding >> is not > in dispute. It is thus a question of how such panna is >> developed. >> > > Do I need to quote that famous Dhp verse, "no wisdom without > Jhana... "? > But in that Dhp verse, "jhana" refers to the samadhi that accompanies insight. It is in that sense that the two are dependent on each other. >> What is your understanding of the "practice" you refer to here? >> > > Noble 8Fold path of course, culminating the the Jhanas, the CROWN of > the path. In DN33 (or 34) and some other suttas, the 7 factors of > N8P are for 8th, 4 Jhanas. > Again, as far as the path factors are concerned, the jhana of samma-samadhi is the samadhi that accompanies the path consciousness; at that particular moment the samadhi is of the level of jhana, regardless of any prior attainment of jhana. Jon #84217 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/19/2008 10:56:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard (James and Nina), --------- <. . .> Nina: > > > It helps to see that we all are only fleeting phenomena. >>> James: > > NO!! The Buddha taught to like all people (metta) equally, that is the practice of metta- he didn't teach to see people as not existing! You cannot generate metta if you see beings as not existing. >> Howard: > Mmm, it's not clear to me that at this point Nina is saying that people don't exist, though she may do so elsewhere. > --------- I don't know how it could be so hard to understand what Nina has been saying all of these years. In truth and reality (or, "In the world described by the Buddha") there are no people - there are only fleeting phenomena. What is so hard about that? If some of us want to satirise this understanding in a juvenile way (eg., by saying "You won't mind if I take your wallet since neither you or your wallet exists") that is their problem. A biblical response to that kind of nonsense would be "Thou sayest it." I think the Buddha's response was, "I do not deny it" (i.e., "I do not deny that people and wallets exist"). He didn't confirm their existence either. Instead of either confirming or denying the conventionally known world the Buddha described a middle-way world of paramattha dhammas. ----------- H: > It seems to me that at the moment she is just pointing to the ungraspable nature of people. ------------ Would you mind explaining what you mean by that? In what sense are people ungraspable by nature? Perhaps you mean dhammas are ungraspable. (?) That could be a correct thing to say, I don't know. It sounds familiar, but I can't think of the context. I do know, however, that lobha performs the function of grasping. It sticks to its object 'like meat to a hot pan.' But I am probably wide of the mark. You are probably saying something very different when you refer to the "ungraspable nature of people [or dhammas]." Ken H ============================ There ARE people, just as there are rainbows, and the aggregates, and the Dhamma. (Except that people, consisting as they do of essentially interrelated dhammas, are even more "real" than the aggregates, which are simply collection of like phenomena.) With metta, Howard #84218 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply: NEW TG: "Hey Scott, with all due respect to both of us, we're so far apart in the way we look at it that to try to unravel the above questions would probably takes weeks and I'm not patient enough. LOL " Scott: You must be patient enough since, after counting me out, you pitched again. I have weeks (in theory) and its just studying Dhamma so why not? Of course we're miles apart. We'd have nothing to discuss, otherwise. So why not? I'll get to fine tune things the way I like, and you will too. TG: "I will say again though, my outlooks are primarily based on what is presented in the Suttas and the way it is presented..." Scott: You're going to have to stop lobbing them right across the plate because then I get to say again that this particular type of sutta-only approach, seems to take only English into account, and bypasses Abhidhamma and Commentarial clarification; it amounts simply to what a given individual thinks the sutta means. And, since I know I don't get it when I just read it (and am so very, very smart), no one else just gets it either. And since I'm in no way interested in my own opinion, I'm even less interested in another's opinion. There, you made me say it. TG: "...But I have trouble trying to get you, Sarah, or Nina deal with 'insight' applications of -- future, past, far, external; or why the Buddha mixes terms like tumor, dart, poison, murderous, etc. with impermanence, suffering, nonself when he tells us that the elements should be seen as such." Scott: Nina has replied to this. In Note 225 (p. 1091), Bh. Bodhi paraphrases the Commentary: "Spk reduces them to the three contemplations: 'impermanence' and 'disintegration' represent contemplations of impermanence; 'empty' and 'nonself', contemplation of nonself; and the others ['...as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien...'] contemplations of suffering..." ["...bhikkhunaa sa~nacupaadaanakkhandhaa aniccato dukkhato rogato ga.n.dato sallato aghato aabaadhato parato palokato su~n~nato anattato yoniso manasikaatabbaa..."] NEW TG: "Were the terms -- disease, tumor, dart, and alien addressed?. Can one insightfully see 'consciousness,' for example, as a dart or tumor from your point of view? Aren't those symbolic representations? Or do you think the Buddha literally thought we should see consciousness as a "Dart" and that THIS is consciousness's 'characteristic and function' and seeing consciousness for what it really is? So maybe we should throw 'consciousness' at dart boards? ;-)" Scott: See above. This is not such a revelation, really, since anicca, dukkha, and anatta are the tilakkha.na, while 'disease, tumour, dart, and alien' can be clearly seen to be conventional terms used 'symbolically' or analagously or synonymously but only the most concrete would suggest that it is the characteristic of pa~n~naa to see the 'dart-ness' of all conditioned phenomena, as if 'dart-ness' were the fourth lakkha.na. TG: "Dart is meant to express something that causes pain. But as a teaching, one needs to take the idea 'dart' and convert it to seeing something that is causing pain. This conversion is a conceptual process." Scott: Yes, this exemplifies the way a sutta-only approach, without Commentarial or Abhidhamma clarification, and shows how this is just thinking conventionally. TG: "I believe the reason these types of terms are used is to 'jolt' or almost 'shock' a mind into a more mindful and deeply insightful disposition, and try to bring about revulsion and detachment. I have failed to get you to deal with these types of terms in the past so I'm not counting on a response here, but maybe you could surprise me?" Scott: See above, TG, for the response. Its been given but you'll likely not agree. As for 'shock' and 'jolt', this is a theory. I don't think you use 'mind' in the way I do. Do you consider 'mind' to be citta? Do you base 'mind' on the fact of momentaneity? I don't think you do. And you don't seem to consider 'insight' to be pa~n~naa cetasika either. You seem to construe it as a conventional label for some sort of process of thinking. Citta 'thinks', cetasika 'experiences' certain qualities of an object and colours the 'thinking' of citta in the moment. Me: "...quasi-permanent, multiply-present dhammas with interactive dynamics are incompatible with momentaneity. I remain unable to see the view as anything other than a form of thinking." NEW TG: I actually didn't understand this comment or understand how it applies to my comment above. It sounded kind of cool though! I think I agree with the first sentence, but being I don't understand what its referring to, I'm not so sure." Scott: Without basing one's considerations on what I consider to be a structural bedrock of Dhamma - the ongoing momentaneity of conditioned dhammas - one is vulnerable to theorising about dhammas which persist beyond the three phases of their arising, presence, and ceasing. Pa~n~naa arises with citta, takes the same object as citta, and penetrates the qualities of that object *in the moment* and then falls away. A conventional approach is one that suggests that insight occurs over a longer time, with objects that persist and thinking that changes over time such that some sort of new 'understanding' (conventional) is reached. This is merely a theory about the 'dynamics' of concepts, which are timeless. If you wish me to say more, please ask. Sincerely, Scott. #84219 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Nina) - In a message dated 3/19/2008 10:37:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: James: Nina, I just don't know what the devil your position is!! You keep changing it!! At least Sarah is consistent with her position. According to the Vism. and the commentaries, people don't exist. Period. (Suffering exists but no sufferer..etc.) Now, you can either agree or disagree with that position. I disagree. But, it seems to me, that you both agree and disagree with that position. Along with Howard, I am very confused about what you really believe. ================================ I agree with that position of "Suffering exists but no sufferer," provided that the existing of the suffering is understood to be momentary and contingent, and provided that the denied "sufferer" doesn't refer to a nama-rupic stream (or "person"), a type of aggregation, but to an imagined, singular "reality" that is an agent/self which is both experiencer and actor *underlying* the aggregation called "a person". I see a near-perfect analogy with a rainbow. It is an aggregation of phenomena referred to by the single word 'rainbow'. A sophisticated adult recognizes it as an aggregation of phenomena, physical and mental, but a child or an unsophisticated and uneducated adult might view it as an entity and dream of seriously journeying to the rainbow's end to find the legendary pot of gold. Such an ignorant person might, for example, say that the rainbow moves when s/he moves to thwart his/her efforts, thinking of it as a rather tricky and elusive singular existent, whereas when "the rainbow moves" the reality is merely a naturally occurring change in conditions and not the action of an entity. With metta, Howard #84220 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Seeing present moment. 11 surefire things for Liberation. Jhana truth_aerator Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > --- Alex wrote: > .... > S: What is most interesting here is that you refer to the commentaries when it suits your case as here and elsewhere. However, when I and others do, we get one of your lectures about how nothing can be trusted in the AP or commentaries:-)) >>> Good point. However, whenever commentaries agree with the suttas, then I agree with the commentaries. Even if we remove commentary on Bahiya, it is not unreasonable to assume that he engaged in lots of meditation when he was an ascetic. For awakening you MUST follow Noble 8 (EIGHT NOT SEVEN) Fold Path. > .... > >A: 2) Susima Sutta: says nothing about LACK OF JHANA attainments, those Arahats have denied only ARUPA and PSYCHIC POWERS. Again, if you were on THEIR level of Panna, then you TOO could have achieved Arahatship. > .... > S: So, go to U.P., look under 'Susima' and you'll see that the commentary to this sutta makes it very clear that there had been no jhana attainments. These were sukkha vipassikas. > .... The sutta DOES NOT EXPLICITLY deny Jhana, it denies aruppas and abhinnnas. Furthermore, are you implying that Buddha's path is actually a 7 FOLD PATH? It is wishful thinking to think that by thinking one can become an Arahat and that only 7fold path is required. ---- Look, this path (with few variations BUT ALWAYS with getting to 4th Jhana and reaching either singular or triple abhinnas) 1) Conscience & concern 2) Purity of conduct 3)Restraint of the senses 4) Moderation in eating 5) Wakefulness 6)Mindfulness & alertness 7) Abandoning the hindrances 8) The four jhanas 9) The three knowledges DN# 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 MN# 4,27,36,39,51,60,65,76,77,79,101,112,119,125 MN125 (with 4 satipathanas b4 2nd and higher Jhana) MN119 (with slight variations, but 3 tevijja are there) 77 - with some additions (but still they happen from/after 4th Jhana) 112 (2 knowledges are omitted, but the final is mentioned) Doesn't this frequent mention of that path tells anything? Hint hint. The satipathana sutta which some reinterpret to be "vipassana" is easily posssibly merely a part of the above sequence and DOES not by itself prove "dry insight". The few suttas (which don't even prove the redundancy of Jhanas) are too few, while suttas teaching NOBLE 8FOLD path are MANY. Using methods of historical criticism we can separe the essential from non essential... > S: I thought you'd been arguing this all along..... > > OK, we now agree that Jhana itself isn't necessary prior to > enlightenment!! > ... Jhana forms a basis to work with for Awakening. Trying to develop (Insight) without Jhana is like trying to be astronomer without a telescope (or microbiologist without a microscope) > > Another contradiction between CMA/Commentaries and suttas: Metta can bring one UP TO 4TH Jhana, compassing to Infinite space, altruistic joy to infinite consciousness and Equinimity to BASE OF NOTHINGNESS (7th Jhana). See CDB pg 1607-1609. > .... > S: I think that the details are only clearly spelled out in the > commentaries. Metta and compassion and altruistic joy can only be > developed to 4th jhana as I recall, >> Sarah, check the SN book. It says that metta brings up to 4th Jhana and next three Brahmaviharas to the 3 arupa levels. Lots of Metta, Alex #84221 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - I truth_aerator Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex > > Alex wrote: > >> You seem to be saying that (a) it's possible for the non-self > >> characteristic to be seen by intellectual study only, and (b) it is > >> by means of developed samadhi that this characteristic is seen. > >> I'd be interested to know the textual basis for this. > >> > > > > No further looking than the famous Anattalakkhana > > sutta. "Intellectul" study here for ascetics was hearing the sutta. > > The practical aspect was done before (meditation perhaps) and after, > > when this intellectual knowledge (in this case through ear medium) > > was put into action. > > > > Well, this is all inference, if not speculation ;-)). Sorry, but it's > not a textual basis for what you've said. > Quite the opposite. Buddha has taught Noble 8, EIGHT fold path. Not seven fold path. Furthermore in many other suttas he has said that Ending of mental fermentations depend on Jhana (AN 9.36 comes to mind). The sutta was delivered to Ascetics who had the time and the opportunity to meditate. After all, they weren't busying themselves with tax returns... :) > > You say that jhana gives one "superpower mindfulness to really be able to observe presently arisen dhammas." I think you are conflating samatha and satipatthana/vipassana. >>>> Buddha has NEVER separated "path of insight vs path of tranquility". Both legs are required to walk. Furthermore, in order to REACH jhana, one must have at least SOME wisdom. > Samatha is about the development of tranquillity by virtue of the > contemplation of an appropriate (conceptual) object, whereas > satipatthana/vipassana is about the direct experience of a presently arisen dhamma. >>>> Jhana IS contemplation of directly arisen dhammas. See MN111. Tell me, is contemplating breath (which is a touch sensation after all) conceptual? Furthermore whats this deal with conceptual vs non? Buddha has taught Suffering and Cessation OF IT, and craving and its cessation. He also taught 4NT. Are 4NT conceptual or not? What about DO? You are talking from SCHOLASTIC POV that has NOTHING to do with actual practice or actual Noble 8Fold path. We don't live in a "non conceptual world". The cars are really moving on the highway and no amount of mental equilibristics can disprove that. Besides this "ultimate vs conventional" truth was developed very much only after the Buddha has died and monks became well fed scholars and seems like a red herring to lure intellectuals from actual work which is really hard. The frequency of "conceptual or conventional" teaching leading ALL THE WAY TO ARAHATSHIP IN AS LITTLE AS 1 PARAGRAPH (or 12 hours from pujjhana to Arahatship) is simply too many to avoid noticing. It is funny, that when all of this scholastic material (dealing with non- existence of objects, emptiness, relative & absolute, vipassana only) came out, actual achievements dropped significantly so much that some Abhidhammikas don't think that Arahatship is possible... I wonder why? :) Lots of Metta, Alex #84222 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:34 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, When we are dreaming or thinking, the object is a concept. Seeing is different from thinking, seeing is a paramattha dhamma. This has to be known over and over again by sati and pańńĺ, by sati-sampajańńa, at the moment they occur. When we have a notion of an image, of details, of shape and form, it is not seeing that experiences visible object, but it is thinking of concepts. If we try to focus on seeing or visible object with an idea of self, we are thinking, not seeing visible object. Then the understanding of paramattha dhammas is doomed to failure. We should asked ourselves whether there is any understanding of what dhamma is. Such understanding is the foundation for satipaěěhĺna. Only through satipatthĺna we shall know without fail what dhamma is and what a concept. People wonder what satipatthĺna exactly is. The word satipatthĺna has three meanings. In the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, the Dispeller of Delusion (I, Ch 7, A. Suttanta Division) it is said: “...There are three kinds of foundation of mindfulness, satipatthĺna: 1. the domain of mindfulness (sati gocaro) 2. the Master’s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice]. 3. mindfulness (sati). As to the domain of mindfulness, sati gocara, this refers to the object of sati, the objects of mindfulness grouped as the four Applications of Mindfulness: Mindfulness of body, of feelings, of cittas and of dhammas. As to the third meaning: mindfulness, sati, this refers to sati cetasika that is aware of the characteristics of realities. As regards the second meaning, satipatthĺna that is the Master’s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice], this is the way along which the Buddha and his disciples went. The “Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field” (Middle Length Sayings” III, no 137) explains that the Buddha is untroubled, mindful and clearly conscious when disciples who listen to the Dhamma turn away, when some of them pay attention but others do not, or when they pay attention to his words. It is said that disciples who are like the Tathĺgata in this way are “fit to instruct a group”, thus, fit to explain the Dhamma to others. ****** Nina. #84223 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 16th & 18th Feb Bangkok: sharing some thoughts truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Is this correct? What does it mean? How do rupas do anything, for a start? > .... > > >A:But with all of this said and > > done, what must be done MUST BE DONE. > .... > S: By 5 khandhas? > ... By what else? 6th aggregate? > >Using anatta as a strategy not > > to do anything since "no body can do anything" is defeating the whole > > point of Budddha's teaching - a path towards cessation of all > > suffering. > .... > S: Who or what is "using anatta as a strategy not to do anything"? > 5 Aggregates of course. Or are you suggestin a 6th? To remove 5 Hindrances, develop 4 satipatthanas, and develop 7 factors of Awakening (Jhana is one of them, Samma-Samadhi). ex: MN118 To Develop 37 Factors of Awakening (Yes, Jhana is one of them). Get into Jhana, turn the mind toward the destruction of the Cankers (ex: MN64, AN9.36) Get to the 4th Jhana, develop abhinnas (optional or not?) and most important turn the mind toward the destruction of the Cankers: 1) Conscience & concern 2) Purity of conduct 3)Restraint of the senses 4) Moderation in eating 5) Wakefulness 6)Mindfulness & alertness 7) Abandoning the hindrances 8) The four jhanas 9) The three knowledges DN# 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 MN# 4,27,36,39,51,60,65,76,77,79,101,112,119,125 MN125 (with 4 satipathanas before 2nd and higher Jhana) MN119 (with slight variations, but 3 tevijja are there) MN77- with some additions (but still they happen from/after 4th Jhana) MN112 (2 knowledges are omitted, but the final is mentioned) Anapanasmrti Sutra (There Rahula does few additional things before 4th Jhana + triple knowledge) --- Or get all the way towards Nirodha Samapatti and see with wisdom the destruction of the taints (MN111) Lots of Metta, Alex #84224 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 3/20/2008 5:46:11 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Scott: You're going to have to stop lobbing them right across the plate because then I get to say again that this particular type of sutta-only approach, seems to take only English into account, and bypasses Abhidhamma and Commentarial clarification; it amounts simply to what a given individual thinks the sutta means. And, since I know I don't get it when I just read it (and am so very, very smart), no one else just gets it either. And since I'm in no way interested in my own opinion, I'm even less interested in another's opinion. There, you made me say it. ..................................................... NEWER TG: Well, Abhidhamma and commentarial thought ARE "other opinions." There usefulness is problematic. I think the Buddha taught to see the Dhamma for yourself, not through the eyes of a conglomerate commentary. (This is just the other side of the argument for argument sake.) Personally, I think you trust yourself more than you more than you give credit for and you trust yourself by thinking that Abhidhamma and commentaries are "clarifications" of Suttas. They may be, and then they may not be. The monks who lived with the Buddha we're not even inclined to guess at what the "minor rules" were, much less change the words and content of the Buddha's teaching in the Suttas with "clarifications." Later generations were much wiser apparently. ........................................................................ TG: "...But I have trouble trying to get you, Sarah, or Nina deal with 'insight' applications of -- future, past, far, external; or why the Buddha mixes terms like tumor, dart, poison, murderous, etc. with impermanence, suffering, nonself when he tells us that the elements should be seen as such." Scott: Nina has replied to this. In Note 225 (p. 1091), Bh. Bodhi paraphrases the Commentary: "Spk reduces them to the three contemplations: 'impermanence' and 'disintegration' represent contemplations of impermanence; 'empty' and 'nonself', contemplation of nonself; and the others ['...as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien...'] contemplations of suffering...c ["...bhikkhunaa sa~nacupaadaanakkha["...bhikkhunaa sa~nacupaa ga.n.dato sallato aghato aabaadhato parato palokato su~n~nato anattato yoniso manasikaatabbaa.yoni NEW TG: "Were the terms -- disease, tumor, dart, and alien addressed?. Can one insightfully see 'consciousness,addressed?. Can one i a dart or tumor from your point of view? Aren't those symbolic representations? Or do you think the Buddha literally thought we should see consciousness as a "Dart" and that THIS is consciousness's 'characteristic and function' and seeing consciousness for what it really is? So maybe we should throw 'consciousness' at dart boards? ;-)" Scott: See above. This is not such a revelation, really, since anicca, dukkha, and anatta are the tilakkha.na, while 'disease, tumour, dart, and alien' can be clearly seen to be conventional terms used 'symbolically' or analagously or synonymously but only the most concrete would suggest that it is the characteristic of pa~n~naa to see the 'dart-ness' of all conditioned phenomena, as if 'dart-ness' were the fourth lakkha.na. TG: "Dart is meant to express something that causes pain. But as a teaching, one needs to take the idea 'dart' and convert it to seeing something that is causing pain. This conversion is a conceptual process." Scott: Yes, this exemplifies the way a sutta-only approach, without Commentarial or Abhidhamma clarification, and shows how this is just thinking conventionally. ............................................................. NEWER TG: Regarding all the above, why use these terms then? What is the purpose of the Buddha using terms like Dart, murderous, etc? Doesn't this take a "mental conversion" to see this as suffering, impermanence? What would be the point of that? Nina has never answered my questions regarding these issues. Her answers are non-answers and she generally dodges the questions. Her answers generally do not address the issue I am raising...but side-step it. The past and future, external, far, 5 khandhas. It takes inference, thinking, imagination to contemplate these things. Furthermore, there is nothing in the Suttas that says "the aim of the Buddha's teaching is to know present ultimate realities with their own characteristics." This is what I get from Nina and Sarah. Don't know if you agree with them on this point. But this opinion take huge creative licence with the Suttas. For you and me, "dart" may represent suffering, murderous may be impermanence. But why did the Buddha use that term? Suffering and Impermanence is already on the list. Was the Buddha a complete dolt and didn't know he was repeating himself within the same sentence? There must be a reason to use these symbolic terms. I say it is for "impact." You disagree. What's your explanation? Also, if the terms themselves require conversion into other terms, then this is not direct knowledge, but thinking that is required. (This has been my point all along.) Its one thing for the Buddha to say -- one needs to know the present as impermanent, suffering, and nonself. Its another thing for him to say -- the 5 khandhas should be seen like darts, poison, hollow, murderous. This latter requires a different mental approach to tackle. .............................................................. TG: "I believe the reason these types of terms are used is to 'jolt' or almost 'shock' a mind into a more mindful and deeply insightful disposition, and try to bring about revulsion and detachment. I have failed to get you to deal with these types of terms in the past so I'm not counting on a response here, but maybe you could surprise me?" Scott: See above, TG, for the response. Its been given but you'll likely not agree. As for 'shock' and 'jolt', this is a theory. I don't think you use 'mind' in the way I do. Do you consider 'mind' to be citta? Do you base 'mind' on the fact of momentaneity? I don't think you do. And you don't seem to consider 'insight' to be pa~n~naa cetasika either. You seem to construe it as a conventional label for some sort of process of thinking. Citta 'thinks', cetasika 'experiences' certain qualities of an object and colours the 'thinking' of citta in the moment. Me: "...quasi-permanentMe: "...quasi-permanent, multi interactive dynamics are incompatible with momentaneity. I remain unable to see the view as anything other than a form of thinking." NEW TG: I actually didn't understand this comment or understand how it applies to my comment above. It sounded kind of cool though! I think I agree with the first sentence, but being I don't understand what its referring to, I'm not so sure." Scott: Without basing one's considerations on what I consider to be a structural bedrock of Dhamma - the ongoing momentaneity of conditioned dhammas - one is vulnerable to theorising about dhammas which persist beyond the three phases of their arising, presence, and ceasing. ............................................................... NEWER TG: For me, your approach seems total theory. In fact, theory without logical reasons for conditionality principles. In other words, basically a view system. ................................................... Pa~n~naa arises with citta, takes the same object as citta, and penetrates the qualities of that object *in the moment* and then falls away. A conventional approach is one that suggests that insight occurs over a longer time, with objects that persist and thinking that changes over time such that some sort of new 'understanding' (conventional) is reached. ......................................................... NEWER TG: If this is your view of my view, its wrong. Your view posits an "entity" to a "dhamma" that has a very short life span. You may not be intentionally trying to do that, but seeing things as having "their own characteristics" does so. My view doesn't see anything as being "anything of itself" that could last for any time period whatsoever. My view would not allow of anything "having its own characteristic." You view conditional relations of separate dhammas. I view conditional relations to entail there is no such thing as separate dhammas, only empty formations that the mind mistakenly thinks are separate. From my point of view, you have not grasped to significance of Dependent Origination. And yours is obviously a different opinion. Your above description, what you think is so "unconventional," to me, is profound but very conventional. Its a subtle and intricate theory of phenomena, but incomplete and often unreflective of the Suttas. Its a very elaborate view system. ............................................................ This is merely a theory about the 'dynamics' of concepts, which are timeless. If you wish me to say more, please ask. ................................................... NEWER TG: This idea of concepts being "timeless" is nonsense. This is what a commentary will get you if you're not on guard. A very Human-centric notion...that concepts are timeless. Concepts are just ideas, relative to conditions, and alter in accordance with conditions. They are mental formations...empty, impermanent, nonself. A concept only arises during conceptualization; and it is a conglomeration of factors. It does not exist on its own. TG OUT .......................................................... #84225 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive nilovg Hi TG, see my last post to you. You never answered my posts, where I quoted the Vsuddhimagga, but I do not mind. Nina. Op 20-mrt-2008, om 18:03 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > What is the > purpose of the Buddha using terms like Dart, murderous, etc? > Doesn't this > take a "mental conversion" to see this as suffering, impermanence? > What would > be the point of that? > > Nina has never answered my questions regarding these issues. Her > answers > are non-answers and she generally dodges the questions. Her answers > generally > do not address the issue I am raising...but side-step it. #84226 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/20/2008 3:55:00 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: As to present, future, past, see my post to Scott. Realizing impermanence is not thinking of decay, thinking of how shortlived this body is. ........................................... Hi Nina There are just too many Suttas that don't jibe with this one-dimensional dry understanding of insight. Indeed, many Suttas show the Buddha telling folks to think how short lived the body is, to think about decay. And not just the uneducated, but the highly advanced. This supports "feeling" the impermanence directly. This is what I mean by "mutually supportive." Thanks for your wishes, hope you are well. TG #84227 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities nilovg Hi James, I find it difficult to answer all your questions you pose in this long post of yours. You took a lot of trouble writing such a long post. Forgive me if I select. Op 20-mrt-2008, om 3:36 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > N: We are discussing Dhamma, and it is of no importance what this or > > that person can realize or not realize. It is not really > interesting. > > James: Well, it is interesting to me. Nina, you make all sorts of > claims about the Dhamma but you don't back them up with quotes from > the suttas as support. So, if this is what you sincerely believe, > surely you must have some basis for this belief. What benefit have > you personally found from your study of the Abhidhamma? --------- N: “Discourse on the Manifold Elements” (Middle length Sayings, no 115, P.T.S.edition). When the Buddha was staying near Sĺvatthí in the Jeta Grove, he said to the monks: “Whatever fears arise, monks, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever troubles arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever misfortunes arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man.” Further on we read: “Wherefore, monks, thinking, ‘Investigating, we will become wise,’ this is how you must train yourselves, monks.” When this had been said, the venerable Ĺnanda spoke thus to the Lord: “What is the stage at which it suffices to say, revered sir: ‘Investigating, the monk is wise?’ ” The Buddha then explained about the elements classified in different ways, about the sense-fields (ĺyatanas), the Dependent origination, the (causally) possible and impossible. When Ĺnanda asked him how the monk was skilled in the elements the Buddha first spoke about the elements as eighteenfold. We read: “There are these eighteen elements, Ĺnanda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness; the element of ear, the element of sound, the element of auditory consciousness; the element of nose, the element of smell, the element of olfactory consciousness; the element of tongue, the element of taste, the element of gustatory consciousness; the element of body, the element of touch, the element of bodily consciousness; the element of mind, the element of mental states, the element of mental consciousness. When, Ĺnanda, he knows and sees these eighteen elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, ‘The monk is skilled in the elements.’ ” You asked me how the Abhidhamma helps me and here it is, we find here Abhidhamma in the Sutta. We read: You asked how the Abhidhamma helps me not to have fear of death, how it helps to cope with troubles and misfortunes. Whatever happens, we learn that there are nama elements and rupa elements. They arise because of their own conditions and how could I change them when they have arisen already? Does it make sense to blame other people or the events of life and have aversion about them? We waste time when we keep on thinking of concepts. Thinking is only thinking, an element arisen because of conditions. There may be wholesome thinking or unwholesome thinking. We can become 'wise' in developing understanding of all these elements and this will change our life. See, it is in the sutta, not only in the Abhidhamma, and should we not listen to the Buddha? Why turn away from the elements? > > ------- > > N: Remember the sutta and all the posts we had: What must we slay if > > we would live happily? Wrath must we slay. We agree here. But greed > > and hatred cannot be slain before wrong view of self and person is > > eradicated. This comes first. > > James: No, this doesn't come first. I will give an example below with > a sutta. ------- N: The sotaapanna eradicates wrong view and only after that the other defilements are eradicated. How can anybody eradicate lobha and dosa when they are still taken for self? ---------- > > > This will take a long time, but meanwhile, understanding that we > > ourselves and others are citta, cetasika and rupa that are ephemeral > > certainly helps in coping with contrarious persons. > > James: I really don't see how. This is just a mind game. Can you > give me some examples from the suttas? Has this personally worked for > you? Are you no longer bothered, or hardly bothered, by contentious > people because you see them as only citta, cetasika, and rupa? > Please, give me something to go on here!! ------- N: Not a mind game. it helps so much to learn about conditions in detail.See Visuddhimagga Ch XVII. You need to understand them in order to understand D.O. We understand what accumulations mean: kusala and akusala is accumulated in the series of cittas that succeed one another. We see in this forum: different people with different styles of writing, at times kind, at times rather blunt. But it is the same, it does not matter. Elements, and when we think a long time about them, this is only thinking, of no importance. , this sure helps. You want suttas to prove? I cannot on command. I am also disinclined to prove things with suttas. I feel no need to prove anything. --------- > > James: Nina, I just don't know what the devil your position is!! You > keep changing it!! At least Sarah is consistent with her position. > According to the Vism. and the commentaries, people don't exist. > Period. (Suffering exists but no sufferer..etc.) Now, you can either > agree or disagree with that position. I disagree. But, it seems to > me, that you both agree and disagree with that position. Along with > Howard, I am very confused about what you really believe. ----- N: Suffering, but no sufferer, a Path but no goer. This is a way to explain that there is no self or person who acts. But there are cittas and cetasikas who act. Context please! ------- > > > --------- > > > J: And, > > > Mindfulness of Death, of a BEING'S DEATH, builds the sense of > samvegga > > > which is so important to Buddhist practice. -------- N: We can think about a person's death, BUT THIS IS ONLY THINKING. Not sufficient. At each moment there is birth and death of citta and that brings samvega more effectively. When the last citta in life (and that is to come soon) falls away it conditions immediately the following one which is rebirth-consciousness, and we do not know in which plane: a happy one or an unhappy one. It all happens so very, very fast, as a flash of lightning. Before we know it there is another birth. > > ------- > J: Anyway, I promised a sutta to explain my position so here it is, > "In > Brief" : > (snipped) James: Then one should develop the Brahma-viharas as much as possible to the point of jhana. 'I will remain focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.' ------ N: Pardon me, focussed is not in the text. translation PTS: As to the body, I will live strenuous, self- possessed and mindful, overcoming the hankering and dejection common in this world.> The world is a designation of the five khandhas, by the way. -------- James: Then, after development of the Brahma-viharas, one should begin concentration of the Four Foundation of Mindfulness (citta, cetasika, and rupa). ----- N: Satipatthana is not concentration. -------- J: Notice that this is supposed to occur AFTER AFTER AFTER the development of the Brahma-viharas!! This is how the Buddha taught the Dhamma in brief. To state that one cannot develop the Brahma-viharas until after mindfulness of dhammas is a perversion and a misstatement of what the Buddha taught! ------ N: One can develop them also without satipatthana, but sati and pa~n~naa are a great help to them. ------ J: So, that is the Dhamma in brief. Resolve to purify the mind; develop the Brahma-viharas; and then develop mindfulness of dhammas. This is the gradual path to enlightenment. ------- N: You may find for yourself that you want to develop jhana but you cannot prove with suttas that the Buddha said that everybody must develop jhana. He addressed different types of people and some were inclined to jhana and to have as subject the Brahmaviharas. We can also develop them in daily life without jhana. Not everybody is the same, we are conditioned elements. Nina. #84228 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and James) - In a message dated 3/20/2008 3:27:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > James: Nina, I just don't know what the devil your position is!! You > keep changing it!! At least Sarah is consistent with her position. > According to the Vism. and the commentaries, people don't exist. > Period. (Suffering exists but no sufferer..etc.) Now, you can either > agree or disagree with that position. I disagree. But, it seems to > me, that you both agree and disagree with that position. Along with > Howard, I am very confused about what you really believe. ----- N: Suffering, but no sufferer, a Path but no goer. This is a way to explain that there is no self or person who acts. But there are cittas and cetasikas who act. Context please! ================================ Nina, you say "... there are cittas and cetasikas who act." I disagree with this formulation, Nina. These cittas and cetasikas are not things that act; they are actions (or, better, actings). With metta, Howard #84229 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II jonoabb Hi Alex Just responding on a few of your comments in this post. Alex wrote: >> Jhana can be developed by a person who has not heard the teaching >> of a Buddha. So it does not require any understanding of, for >> example, the non-self characteristic of dhammas. >> > > TRUE. But if such Jhana master HEARS Buddha's discourse, then s/he > could instantly achieve Arahatship (or less depending on > accumulations). > It is a widely held view that a person who has attained jhana would, on hearing the teachings, be able to see dhammas as they truly are. But I think this is a misconception. No doubt, there are instances in the suttas of persons skilled in jhana who did become enlightened on hearing the teachings, but these do not support this as a general proposition. The panna that is developed with samatha is not the panna that needs to be developed as insight knowledge. And as I think you agree, insight knowledge can be developed without jhana first being attained. > All 8 Jhanas are mundane. But they CAN and SHOULD be USED as part of > Buddha's path. > Yes, all 8 jhanas are mundane, but the samma-samadhi that accompanies the path-moment is also referred to in the texts as jhana and is of course supra-mundane. ... >> You seem to be saying here that insight (as taught by the Buddha) s >> a prerequisite for the development of mundane jhana. That >> clearly is not the case. >> > > In a certain way yes. One needs to be able to let go of pubs and > strip clubs in order to be able to seclude oneself from unwholesome > states and enter the Jhana. Most people simply don't see the benefit > of Jhana and prefer to watch "sunday night live" instead. > But you've already agreed that jhana can be developed by a person who has not heard the teaching of a Buddha. And besides, letting go of pubs and strip clubs is not a manifestation of insight. Insight has to do with seeing dhammas as they truly are. >> To my understanding, the jhana referred to in the Dhammapada verse >> is lokuttara jhana, that is to say, the samma-samadhi that arises >> with magga citta. >> > > Where in the suttas does the Buddha talk about Lokuttara Jhana? > Forget about the term "lokuttara jhana" then. My point is just that the jhana referred to in the Dhammapada verse is the samma-samadhi that arises with magga citta. ... > Yes Jhana is required for DEEP insight. Look, if you can't let go off > 5 hindrances than what insight can we talk about? > Suppression of the hindrances is not a pre-requisite for the arising of satipatthana/insight. The hindrances are themselves dhammas to be seen by insight as they truly are. See the citta section of the Satipatthana Sutta. Jon #84230 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:09 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II truth_aerator Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex > > > > It is a widely held view that a person who has attained jhana would, on hearing the teachings, be able to see dhammas as they truly are. But I think this is a misconception. >>>> If person has fixed wrong view, then it is true that hearing a Buddha's discourse would probably not change one mind. But if the person does NOT have obstructions, then a person COULD become a sotapanna or higher. >>>>> No doubt, there are instances in the suttas of persons skilled in jhana who did become enlightened on hearing the teachings, but these do not support this as a general proposition. >>>> Are we following N8P or Noble 7 fold path (or Noble 7.5 fold path) ? While it is true that for lower levels Samadhi doesn't need to be perfected, for anagami it DOES have to be perfected. > The panna that is developed with samatha is not the panna that needs to > be developed as insight knowledge. >>> And as I think you agree, insight knowledge can be developed without jhana first being attained. >>>> When you say insight knowledge, exactly which knowledge do you refer to? Anicca -> dukkha -> anatta in basic forms was basically known to many other religions. Furthermore Buddha has practiced scrupulous mindfulness which DID NOT WORK. Only when he remember that "Jhana IS the path to enlightment" only then he made progress. Besides in too many suttas there is mention that Jhana mastery (or at least attainment) is required. In todays Kali Yuga, they are even MORE important than before, when people were less egotistical and had less sensuality. > > All 8 Jhanas are mundane. But they CAN and SHOULD be USED as part of > > Buddha's path. > > > > Yes, all 8 jhanas are mundane, but the samma-samadhi that accompanies the path-moment is also referred to in the texts as jhana and is of course supra-mundane. >>>> So were the 9 Jhanas that Buddha (and Sariputta) attained, just path moments? > > But you've already agreed that jhana can be developed by a person who has not heard the teaching of a Buddha. >>>> True and that is why it may not lead to ariyahood. But a person who doesn't have kammic obstruction and HAVE heard Buddha's teaching CAN get awakened. >>>> And besides, letting go of pubs and strip clubs is not a manifestation of insight. Insight has to do with seeing dhammas as they truly are. >>>> Seeing things as they are has a proximate cause of samadhi (Upanisa sutta). What I have meant to say was that in order to meditate and try to let go off the world is often due to a certain grain of wisdom that "there is something higher than sensuality." Most people aren't interested in Meditation, much less in leting go. > > ... > > Yes Jhana is required for DEEP insight. Look, if you can't let go off 5 hindrances than what insight can we talk about? > > > > Suppression of the hindrances is not a pre-requisite for the arising of satipatthana/insight. The hindrances are themselves dhammas to be seen by insight as they truly are. See the citta section of the Satipatthana > Sutta. > > > Jon > Hindrances are seen with Sati, which is also translated as memory. Past hindrances can be analyzed, but it is EXTREMELY hard to be mindful of a hindrance as it is occuring because by definition, hindrance hinder. Furthermore in the begining of satipatthana, there is a pali phrase ("having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief" = Vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam) . , that may suggest that at least SOME hindrances must be let go off, which is usually a result of previous Jhana attainment. Look, satipatthana promises either Arhatship or Anagamiship in 7 days. How many practicioners have achieved it? Why not? Also in plenty of suttas there is a passage that one needs to overcome 5 hindrances for full Awakening, so that supports that 5 hindrances ARE obstacles - especially if they are strong ones. Lots of Metta, Alex #84231 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > Hi, James (and Nina) - > > In a message dated 3/19/2008 10:37:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > And why the Mahayana tradition seemed to > think that the Buddha didn't teach the Brahma-viharas and so the > original Dhamma is a "lesser vehicle" is also beyond me. > ============================== > I pick up here on one sentence in your post that I think is in error, > containing two mistakes: > > 1) Where did the idea that Mahayana doesn't attribute the divine > abidings to the Buddha come from? I've never heard that. I *have* heard the > opposite. To see this you could do a Google search on the four immeasurables. In > particular you will find the following: James: I don't think I am in error. Do a google search on Theravada vs. Mahayana and you will find many articles detailing the differences. Theravada: goal of arahant, Buddha, or silent Buddha. Mahayana: goal of bodhisattva and then Buddha. Mahayana tradition sees the Theravada tradition as selfish because it focuses on individual enlightenment rather than universal enlightenment. Of course, if you see someone as selfish you cannot believe that they practice the Brahma-viharas. You cannot take a few quotes out of context to get a full view of the Mahayana tradition. > > < (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana_Mahaparinirvana_Sutra) , the Buddha teaches that the BrahmaviharÄ? are > characteristic qualities of the Buddha-dhatu (_Buddha-nature_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature) or Buddha-Principle, the all-pervading essence of > the Buddha). He states: > > “Great Benevolence [or “Loving-kindnessâ€?] and Great Compassion are the > Buddha-dhatu. Great Sympathetic Joy and Great Equanimity are the Buddha-dhatu. > The Buddha-dhatu is at once the Tathagata" > > Shakyamuni Buddha identifies the consummate Brahmaviharic qualities as > nondifferent to _moksha_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moksha) (Sanskrit) and > _nirvana_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana) (Sanskrit): > > > “The Tathagata is Benevolence, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy, and Equanimity. > Benevolence, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy, and Equanimity are Liberation > [moksha]. Liberation is Nirvana, and Nirvana is Benevolence, Compassion, > Sympathetic Joy, and Equanimity.">> > > > 2) What was called the lesser (or, really, inferior/small) vehicle was, > so far as I know, the old Sarvastivadin school, which certainly failed to > properly grasp the teaching of anatta and that was only one among many early > schools and not "the original Dhamma." James: To the Mahayana perspective, the Sarvastivadin became the Theravadin over time and there is no significant difference. The Theravadin is still know, today, as the lesser vehicle. > > With metta, > Howard Metta, James #84232 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Hi, James (and Nina) - > > In a message dated 3/19/2008 10:37:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > James: Nina, I just don't know what the devil your position is!! You > keep changing it!! At least Sarah is consistent with her position. > According to the Vism. and the commentaries, people don't exist. > Period. (Suffering exists but no sufferer..etc.) Now, you can either > agree or disagree with that position. I disagree. But, it seems to > me, that you both agree and disagree with that position. Along with > Howard, I am very confused about what you really believe. > > > ================================ > I agree with that position of "Suffering exists but no sufferer," > provided that the existing of the suffering is understood to be momentary and > contingent, and provided that the denied "sufferer" doesn't refer to a nama-rupic > stream (or "person"), a type of aggregation, but to an imagined, singular > "reality" that is an agent/self which is both experiencer and actor > *underlying* the aggregation called "a person". James: Okay. Unfortunately, the Vism. isn't really all that clear on what that means. It just provides the pithy statement which can be interpreted in any number of ways. From what I have seen quoted from the Tiika (commentary to the Vism.) it means that there is no person at all, period. Metta, James #84233 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > I find it difficult to answer all your questions you pose in this > long post of yours. You took a lot of trouble writing such a long > post. Forgive me if I select. James: That's okay. Anyway, I think that you put a lot more time and effort into post writing than I do! (Although you do a lot of copy and paste from other posts/articles where everything I write is new.) > Op 20-mrt-2008, om 3:36 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > > N: We are discussing Dhamma, and it is of no importance what this or > > > that person can realize or not realize. It is not really > > interesting. > > > > James: Well, it is interesting to me. Nina, you make all sorts of > > claims about the Dhamma but you don't back them up with quotes from > > the suttas as support. So, if this is what you sincerely believe, > > surely you must have some basis for this belief. What benefit have > > you personally found from your study of the Abhidhamma? > --------- > N: "Discourse on the Manifold Elements" (Middle length Sayings, no > 115, P.T.S.edition). When the Buddha was staying near Sĺvatthí in the > Jeta Grove, he said to the monks: > > "Whatever fears arise, monks, all arise for the fool, not the wise > man. Whatever troubles arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise > man. Whatever misfortunes arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise > man." > > Further on we read: > > "Wherefore, monks, thinking, `Investigating, we will become wise,' > this is how you must train yourselves, monks." > When this had been said, the venerable Ĺnanda spoke thus to the Lord: > "What is the stage at which it suffices to say, revered sir: > `Investigating, the monk is wise?' " > > The Buddha then explained about the elements classified in different > ways, James: Okay, something is missing here. Ananda asks about stages and I don't see any details of the what the Buddha says. This is important to this discussion. I can't find this sutta online so I can't really comment further. about the sense-fields (ĺyatanas), the Dependent origination, > the (causally) possible and impossible. When Ĺnanda asked him how the > monk was skilled in the elements the Buddha first spoke about the > elements as eighteenfold. We read: > > "There are these eighteen elements, Ĺnanda: the element of eye, the > element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness; the > element of ear, the element of sound, the element of auditory > consciousness; the element of nose, the element of smell, the element > of olfactory consciousness; the element of tongue, the element of > taste, the element of gustatory consciousness; the element of body, > the element of touch, the element of bodily consciousness; the > element of mind, the element of mental states, the element of mental > consciousness. When, Ĺnanda, he knows and sees these eighteen > elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, `The monk is > skilled in the elements.' " > You asked me how the Abhidhamma helps me and here it is, we find here > Abhidhamma in the Sutta. We read: arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever troubles arise, all > arise for the fool, not the wise man. > > You asked how the Abhidhamma helps me not to have fear of death, how > it helps to cope with troubles and misfortunes. Whatever happens, we > learn that there are nama elements and rupa elements. They arise > because of their own conditions and how could I change them when they > have arisen already? Does it make sense to blame other people or the > events of life and have aversion about them? We waste time when we > keep on thinking of concepts. Thinking is only thinking, an element > arisen because of conditions. There may be wholesome thinking or > unwholesome thinking. We can become 'wise' in developing > understanding of all these elements and this will change our life. James: So, are you saying that in your personal practice you skipped developing the Brahma-viharas and went straight to developing "investigation of the elements". And that practice created wisdom for you and so you no longer experience fear of death or have troubles and misfortunes (or much less)? > See, it is in the sutta, not only in the Abhidhamma, and should we > not listen to the Buddha? Why turn away from the elements? James: I have never said that we should "turn away from the elements". I am talking about the gradual path to enlightenment...and as far as I can tell I think that them members of this group should be focusing on the beginning stages rather than the later stages (even though this is an advanced group). > > > > ------- > > > N: Remember the sutta and all the posts we had: What must we slay if > > > we would live happily? Wrath must we slay. We agree here. But greed > > > and hatred cannot be slain before wrong view of self and person is > > > eradicated. This comes first. > > > > James: No, this doesn't come first. I will give an example below with > > a sutta. > ------- > N: The sotaapanna eradicates wrong view and only after that the other > defilements are eradicated. How can anybody eradicate lobha and dosa > when they are still taken for self? James: I don't see how this relates to the discussion. > ---------- > > > > > This will take a long time, but meanwhile, understanding that we > > > ourselves and others are citta, cetasika and rupa that are ephemeral > > > certainly helps in coping with contrarious persons. > > > > James: I really don't see how. This is just a mind game. Can you > > give me some examples from the suttas? Has this personally worked for > > you? Are you no longer bothered, or hardly bothered, by contentious > > people because you see them as only citta, cetasika, and rupa? > > Please, give me something to go on here!! > ------- > N: Not a mind game. it helps so much to learn about conditions in > detail.See Visuddhimagga Ch XVII. You need to understand them in > order to understand D.O. James: I am not even close to understanding D.O.!! If you think that you are at that stage, great! But what about the rest of us down here?? Exactly who are you addressing? Who is your audience? > We understand what accumulations mean: kusala and akusala is > accumulated in the series of cittas that succeed one another. We see > in this forum: different people with different styles of writing, at > times kind, at times rather blunt. But it is the same, it does not > matter. Elements, and when we think a long time about them, this is > only thinking, of no importance. , this sure > helps. James: Okay. Not sure what this has to do with the discussion. You want suttas to prove? I cannot on command. I am also > disinclined to prove things with suttas. James: Well, fine, I also said that you could just give me your personal experience. Nina, you have to give me something to go on...or why should I believe you? I feel no need to prove > anything. James: Then what in the heck are you doing posting to this group? Why don't you just sit in your house and practice the Dhamma on your own? Why write books on the Dhamma? Of course you feel the need to prove something or you wouldn't be posting or writing books. > --------- > > > > James: Nina, I just don't know what the devil your position is!! You > > keep changing it!! At least Sarah is consistent with her position. > > According to the Vism. and the commentaries, people don't exist. > > Period. (Suffering exists but no sufferer..etc.) Now, you can either > > agree or disagree with that position. I disagree. But, it seems to > > me, that you both agree and disagree with that position. Along with > > Howard, I am very confused about what you really believe. > ----- > N: Suffering, but no sufferer, a Path but no goer. This is a way to > explain that there is no self or person who acts. But there are > cittas and cetasikas who act. Context please! James: I am a bit confused about this. Does self equal person? Since there is no self does that mean that there is no person? Could you explain this a bit more? > ------- > > > > > --------- > > > > J: And, > > > > Mindfulness of Death, of a BEING'S DEATH, builds the sense of > > samvegga > > > > which is so important to Buddhist practice. > -------- > N: We can think about a person's death, BUT THIS IS ONLY THINKING. > Not sufficient. James: Mindfulness of Death is thinking and it is sufficient. At each moment there is birth and death of citta and > that brings samvega more effectively. James: How could something that we are not usually aware of bring samvegga?? When the last citta in life > (and that is to come soon) falls away it conditions immediately the > following one which is rebirth-consciousness, and we do not know in > which plane: a happy one or an unhappy one. It all happens so very, > very fast, as a flash of lightning. Before we know it there is > another birth. James: Right, so we really must appreciate how valuable and precious this human birth is and make the most of it. It is wrong to think that we have loads of time, or countless lives, to develop the path. > > > ------- > > J: Anyway, I promised a sutta to explain my position so here it is, > > "In > > Brief" : > > (snipped) > James: Then one should develop the Brahma-viharas as much as possible > to the point of jhana. > 'I will remain focused on > the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside > greed & distress with reference to the world.' > ------ > N: Pardon me, focussed is not in the text. > > translation PTS: As to the body, I will live strenuous, self- > possessed and mindful, overcoming the hankering and dejection common > in this world.> > The world is a designation of the five khandhas, by the way. James: The world is a designation of the six senses and their objects, as far as I know. There are suttas about that. > -------- > > James: Then, after development of the Brahma-viharas, one should begin > concentration of the Four Foundation of Mindfulness (citta, cetasika, > and rupa). > ----- > N: Satipatthana is not concentration. James: Of course Satipatthana involves concentration. One cannot practice satipatthana with a scattered mind being pulled this way and that way by sense desires. > -------- > > J: Notice that this is supposed to occur AFTER AFTER AFTER > the development of the Brahma-viharas!! This is how the Buddha taught > the Dhamma in brief. To state that one cannot develop the > Brahma-viharas until after mindfulness of dhammas is a perversion and > a misstatement of what the Buddha taught! > ------ > N: One can develop them also without satipatthana, but sati and > pa~n~naa are a great help to them. James: Great! I think that's fair enough. I guess that concludes this discussion topic. > ------ > J: So, that is the Dhamma in brief. Resolve to purify the mind; > develop the Brahma-viharas; and then develop mindfulness of dhammas. > This is the gradual path to enlightenment. > ------- > N: You may find for yourself that you want to develop jhana but you > cannot prove with suttas that the Buddha said that everybody must > develop jhana. James: Oh lord, I am not going to get into another jhana discussion! ;-)) > He addressed different types of people and some were inclined to > jhana and to have as subject the Brahmaviharas. We can also develop > them in daily life without jhana. James: If you can do that, great! Can you do that, Nina? Do you develop the Brahma-viharas in daily life without meditation? How do you do that? What conditions that? Not everybody is the same, we are > conditioned elements. > > Nina. > Metta, James #84234 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II buddhatrue HI Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex > > Just responding on a few of your comments in this post. > > Alex wrote: > >> Jhana can be developed by a person who has not heard the teaching > >> of a Buddha. So it does not require any understanding of, for > >> example, the non-self characteristic of dhammas. > >> > > > > TRUE. But if such Jhana master HEARS Buddha's discourse, then s/he > > could instantly achieve Arahatship (or less depending on > > accumulations). > > > > It is a widely held view that a person who has attained jhana would, on > hearing the teachings, be able to see dhammas as they truly are. But I > think this is a misconception. No doubt, there are instances in the > suttas of persons skilled in jhana who did become enlightened on hearing > the teachings, but these do not support this as a general proposition. The Buddha described those who had achieved jhana (his former teachers and ascetics) as "those with little dust in their eyes", so I would say it is a general proposition. To prove that it isn't you would have to provide the contrary. Metta, James ps. Against my better judgement, I am just popping into the "jhana fray". ;-)) #84235 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 3/20/2008 9:10:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > Hi, James (and Nina) - > > In a message dated 3/19/2008 10:37:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > And why the Mahayana tradition seemed to > think that the Buddha didn't teach the Brahma-viharas and so the > original Dhamma is a "lesser vehicle" is also beyond me. > ============================== > I pick up here on one sentence in your post that I think is in error, > containing two mistakes: > > 1) Where did the idea that Mahayana doesn't attribute the divine > abidings to the Buddha come from? I've never heard that. I *have* heard the > opposite. To see this you could do a Google search on the four immeasurables. In > particular you will find the following: James: I don't think I am in error. Do a google search on Theravada vs. Mahayana and you will find many articles detailing the differences. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't say there are no differences between Theravada and Mahayana. There are huge differences. I only said that I never got the impression that Mahayana denies the divine abidings having been taught by the Buddha. ------------------------------------------------- Theravada: goal of arahant, Buddha, or silent Buddha. Mahayana: goal of bodhisattva and then Buddha. Mahayana tradition sees the Theravada tradition as selfish because it focuses on individual enlightenment rather than universal enlightenment. Of course, if you see someone as selfish you cannot believe that they practice the Brahma-viharas. You cannot take a few quotes out of context to get a full view of the Mahayana tradition. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: James, I addressed a very particular matter. I don't disagree with what you wrote above. It simply isn't relevant to what I said. ----------------------------------------------------- > > < (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana_Mahaparinirvana_Sutra) , the Buddha teaches that the BrahmaviharĂ„Â? are > characteristic qualities of the Buddha-dhatu (_Buddha-nature_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature) or Buddha-Principle, the all-pervading essence of > the Buddha). He states: > > “Great Benevolence [or “Loving-kindnessâ€Â?] and Great Compassion are the > Buddha-dhatu. Great Sympathetic Joy and Great Equanimity are the Buddha-dhatu. > The Buddha-dhatu is at once the Tathagata" > > Shakyamuni Buddha identifies the consummate Brahmaviharic qualities as > nondifferent to _moksha_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moksha) (Sanskrit) and > _nirvana_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana) (Sanskrit): > > > “The Tathagata is Benevolence, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy, and Equanimity. > Benevolence, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy, and Equanimity are Liberation > [moksha]. Liberation is Nirvana, and Nirvana is Benevolence, Compassion, > Sympathetic Joy, and Equanimity.">> > > > 2) What was called the lesser (or, really, inferior/small) vehicle was, > so far as I know, the old Sarvastivadin school, which certainly failed to > properly grasp the teaching of anatta and that was only one among many early > schools and not "the original Dhamma." James: To the Mahayana perspective, the Sarvastivadin became the Theravadin over time and there is no significant difference. The Theravadin is still know, today, as the lesser vehicle. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That has not been my experience from my reading works by the Dalai Lama or by modern Zen masters such as Thich Nhat Hanh , and it was not at all what I saw or heard during the time I spent at the Ch'an Center of New York. --------------------------------------------------------- > > With metta, > Howard Metta, James ============================== With metta, Howard #84236 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:53 pm Subject: Craving conditions clinging by conascence condition? philofillet Hi Nina and all Hope you've been well. I've been keeping off the 'net fairly well but will post on occasion here and at e-sangha. (They have smiley icons and it's interesting to hear what people from other buddhist traditions have to say.) Nina, I read in Vism. that craving is condition for clinging by conascence condition and mutuality condition, in addition to others including decisive support. Does this mean that they arise together according to abhidhamma, the way sloth and torpor do? Thanks. Metta, Phil #84237 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:18 pm Subject: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? philofillet Hi all Generally in this "do people exist debate" I favour the "they do not" side, not in ultimate terms. It seems like pretty standard Dhamma to me, and even in popular writers such as Joseph Goldstein I see it - that it is vipalassas that form the ideas of people out of our experience etc. I don't see any conflict between this and being able to develop brahma-viharas. The object of bvs can be a concept it seems to me. However, James made a point some time back that I keep thinking about. Why is that "there are no beings" included in wrong view?. (James will say "because there are, dummy! ;) ) Thanks. metta, phil #84238 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:24 pm Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? buddhatrue Hi Dummy...er, I mean, Phil ;-)), Good to see you back again. Hope your meditation has been fruitful. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > However, James made a point some time back that I keep thinking about. > Why is that "there are no beings" included in wrong view?. (James will > say "because there are, dummy! ;) ) I would not say that! It is included in wrong view because some people do hold that wrong view, and it is dangerous for them: And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html#micchaditthi "When a person has wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration, wrong knowledge, & wrong release, whatever bodily deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever verbal deeds... whatever mental deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever intentions, whatever determinations, whatever vows, whatever fabrications, all lead to what is disagreeable, unpleasing, unappealing, unprofitable, & stressful. Why is that? Because the view is evil. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.104.than.html Metta, James #84239 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? TGrand458@... Hi All If a "being" is a conditionally relative "system" of interacting and altering elements held together and propagated by craving and false views, then I would say yes, there are beings. I'd probably prefer to call it a "becoming" or "sentient system," but "being" will do. As long as it is clearly understood there is no-self associated with it. TG #84240 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't say there are no differences between Theravada and Mahayana. > There are huge differences. I only said that I never got the impression that > Mahayana denies the divine abidings having been taught by the Buddha. > ------------------------------------------------- James: Well, when you say the Buddha, do you mean the historical Buddha or the Buddha speaking from Pureland? Or one of the countless Buddhas? Which Buddha? In Theravada, we predominately speak of only one Buddha, but in Mahayana they speak of many Buddhas. So, I guess this discussion will be fruitless. > > Theravada: goal of arahant, Buddha, or silent Buddha. > Mahayana: goal of bodhisattva and then Buddha. Mahayana tradition > sees the Theravada tradition as selfish because it focuses on > individual enlightenment rather than universal enlightenment. Of > course, if you see someone as selfish you cannot believe that they > practice the Brahma-viharas. You cannot take a few quotes out of > context to get a full view of the Mahayana tradition. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > James, I addressed a very particular matter. I don't disagree with what > you wrote above. It simply isn't relevant to what I said. James: I guess I am confused about what you said. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That has not been my experience from my reading works by the Dalai Lama > or by modern Zen masters such as Thich Nhat Hanh , and it was not at all what > I saw or heard during the time I spent at the Ch'an Center of New York. James: Okay. I have sometimes experienced this and sometimes not at Zen and Tibetan Temples. Anyway, I was speaking in general terms of the Mahayana Philosophy. Metta, James #84241 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:54 pm Subject: Medin Poya Day! bhikkhu0 Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Medin Poya day is the full-moon of March. This holy day celebrates that the Buddha visits his parental home after his supreme Enlightenment, and ordains his son prince R Ä? hula , & half brother Nanda . This day is also called: The Sangha Day, since on this full-moon 1250 Arahats spontaneously met & assembled around the Buddha without any call. Buddha then spoke the famous Ovada Patimokkha core teaching! On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect, keep & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Lying & Cheating. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! The journey towards NibbÄ?na: The Deathless is hereby started! This is the Noble Way to Absolute Peace, to Complete Freedom, to Ultimate Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps also the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town, & country to me or join here . A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global web Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The New Noble Community of Buddha's Disciples: The Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift, and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Medin Poya Day! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #84242 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving conditions clinging by conascence condition? nilovg Hi Phil, good to see you again. Op 21-mrt-2008, om 3:53 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I read in Vism. that craving is condition for clinging by > conascence condition and mutuality condition, in addition to others > including decisive support. Does this mean that they arise together > according to abhidhamma, the way sloth and torpor do? --------- N: When it is a condiiton by way of decisive support it does not arise together. For conascence etc. condition, I shall post today. Here it is: But it is a condition in seven ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, association, presence, non-disappearance, and root-cause, or in eight ways, as [those and] decisive-support as well, for the remaining three kinds. --------- N: The remaining three kinds of clinging pertain to wrong view, di.t.thi. Craving, which is lobha cetasika, conditions wrong view, di.t.thi., in this context three kinds of upaadaana. Lobha and di.t.thi that arise together with the lobha-muulacitta condition one another. The seven conditions mentioned in the text pertain to conascent conditions. Lobha is an akusala root, hetu, and thus it conditions wrong view also by way of root-condition. Nina. #84243 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:11 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 247, 248, and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 247, 248 [How Craving is a Condition for Clinging] Intro: In this section it is explained in which ways craving conditions clinging. Clinging, upaadaana, is firm grasping, it is craving, ta.nhaa, that has become strong. As we have seen, there is craving for sense-desires (kaama ta.nhaa), craving for becoming (bhava ta.nhaa) and craving for non-becoming (vibhava ta.nhaa). The four kinds of clinging are: sense-desire clinging, [false-] view clinging, rite-and-ritual clinging and self-doctrine clinging. The latter three kinds are forms of clinging with wrong view. The types of conditions that are operating in the case of craving that conditions clinging are mentioned in this section. ----- Text Vis. 247: For the first in a single way; But for the three remaining kinds In sevenfold or eightfold way. ------------ Text Vis. 248: As regards the four kinds of clinging taught in this way, craving for sense desires is a condition in one way, as decisive-support, for the first kind, namely, sense-desire clinging, because it arises in relation to the objective field in which craving delights. --------- N: Craving delights in all the objects that can be experienced through the six doorways. When there is craving again and again it becomes firm grasping, it conditions clinging by way of decisive support. --------- Text Vis. : But it is a condition in seven ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, association, presence, non-disappearance, and root-cause, or in eight ways, as [those and] decisive-support as well, for the remaining three kinds. --------- N: The remaining three kinds of clinging pertain to wrong view, di.t.thi. Craving, which is lobha cetasika, conditions wrong view, di.t.thi., in this context three kinds of clinging, upaadaana. Lobha and di.t.thi, when they arise together with the lobha-muulacitta, condition one another by way of conascence-condition. The seven conditions mentioned in the text pertain to conascent conditions. Lobha is an akusala root, hetu, and thus it conditions wrong view also by way of root-condition. -------- Text Vis. : And when it is a condition as decisive-support, then it is never conascent. This is the detailed explanation of the clause 'With craving as condition, clinging'. ------- N: The Tiika mentions the three kinds of decisive support-condition: by way of object, by way of contiguity and by way of natural decisive support. It states that these, beginning with decisive support of contiguity are included here. ------- Conclusion: The text reminds us of the danger of craving that grows in strength and becomes firm grasping or clinging. There are usually seven javanacittas of the same type and of these each subsequent one conditions the following one. The first one is the weakest, but then it gains in strength. We read in the “Guide to Conditional Relations” by U Narada, Ch 2: < In the case where there are seven impulsions, the repetition conditioning force of the first impulsion [N: javanacitta] is received by the second impulsion which thus becomes stronger than the first. Similarly, that of the second impulsion is received by the third and that of the latter by the fourth. Through this gradual increase in strength, the force reaches its maximum at the middle impulsion which is the fourth....> It is explained that after that the force gradually decreases. We keep on clinging to all the sense objects, to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. After seeing visible object javanacittas with craving and clinging arise even in the sense- door process and also in the subsequent mind-door process. In this way clinging is accumulated again and again. So long as there is clinging there is no end to the cycle of birth and death. ******** Nina. #84244 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities nilovg Hi Howard, Op 20-mrt-2008, om 22:09 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, you say "... there are cittas and cetasikas who act." I disagree > with this formulation, Nina. These cittas and cetasikas are not > things that > act; they are actions (or, better, actings). -------- N: You fall over this because you are afraid that people think of little actors. But when we have learnt about the different types of cittas and cetasikas that arise because of their own conditions, I think that there will be more understanding that there is no room for a person who acts. There are only dhammas performing their functions. Function is allowable, it is used in the Co. But I know this is not to your liking. I find it helpful to learn about functions, kicca, of cittas that have their fixed place in the processes and arise in a fixed order (niyama). Nobody can direct them, they arise already. Nina. #84245 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:41 am Subject: Perfections Corner (112) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - This is the continuation of Chapter 3 The Perfection of Renunciation. It is not easy to see that renunciation means happiness. We should understand that it must be pa~n~naa that sees its benefit, that compares and considers the practice, so that one should follow the right and proper practice that opposes attachment and clinging to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. One should see the benefit of the practice of Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma and develop the thirty-seven factors of enlightenment. Therefore, it must be pa~n~naa which understands and knows that renunciation which departs from sense objects is to be achieved by sati-sampaja~n~naa, the thirty-seven factors of enlightenment, the attainment of nibbaana and the practice leading to nibbaana, as stated by the Cuulaniddesa. And all this is practised with happiness, which means, that one should see the disadvantage and danger of defilements. One should have an unshakable determination to develop pa~n~naa in order to completely eradicate clinging to sense objects. This has to begin by listening and considering the Dhamma so that one first sees the benefit of the practice. One should realize that renunciation means happiness and that this kind of happiness is without a self who seeks enjoyment. We should understand that detachment from the sense objects leads to the highest calm and well-being. Each of the perfections should be developed together with pa~n~naa, otherwise kusala is not of the degree of a perfection. If one does not see the danger of akusala and if one does not realize the benefit of the perfections, they cannot be developed. In that case pa~n~naa is too weak to see the benefit of their development. If one’s goal is the realization of the four noble Truths, one should not only develop pa~n~naa but also the perfections. Each of the perfections is an important and helpful condition for the realization of the four noble Truths. Some people may wonder why it is necessary to develop day after day the perfections together with satipatthaana. Someone who has understanding about the development of the eightfold Path knows that sati should be aware of the characteristics of realities that are appearing, and that pa~n~naa gradually considers, notices and understands the characteristics of the dhammas that are non-self, as naama, the reality which experiences, or ruupa, the reality which does not experience. To be continued. Metta, Han #84246 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:47 am Subject: Patthaana (27) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of (4) Proximity Condition (anantara-paccaya) and (5) Contiguity Condition (samanantara-paccaya) taken together. In the last post, it was mentioned that the conditioning process mentioned in both the Conditions is not occurring haphazardly but in a fixed order of sequences called citta-niyaama. Our life is an unbroken series of cittas, succeeding one another without interval. Each citta with its associated cetasikas falls away and conditions the arising of the succeeding citta with its associated cetasikas. The next citta cannot arise if the preceding citta has not fallen away, and there can only be one citta at a time. These cittas are arising and falling away, and succeeding one another because of proximity condition and contiguity condition. This citta-niyaama is best seen in a fixed sequence of the occurrence of consciousness in the process of cognition, which is called “viithi.” The word viithi literally means street, but here it is used in the sense of process. When cittas arise cognizing an object at the sense doors or at the mind door, they do not occur at random or in isolation, but as phases in a series of cognitive events leading one to the other in a regular and uniform order. When a sense object impinges on one of the five sense-doors (eye-door, ear-door, nose-door, tongue-door, body-door), it is experienced by several cittas arising in a “sense-door process.” Counting from the "past bhavanga" (bhavanga is sometimes called subconscious mind, or life-continuum), there are seventeen moments of citta if the sense-door process of cittas runs its full course. The seventeen moments of citta are as follows: (1) atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga) (2) bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) (3) bhavangupaccheda (arresting bhavanga, the last bhavanga arising before the object is experienced through the sense-door) (4) pa~ncadvaraavajjana-citta (five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness), which is a kiriya citta (5) dvi-pa~ncavi~n~nana (sense-cognition: seeing-consciousness, etc.), which is vipaaka citta (6) sampaticchana-citta (receiving-consciousness), which is vipaaka citta (7) santirana-citta (investigating-consciousness), which is vipaaka citta (8) votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness), which is kiriya citta (9) javana-citta ("impulsion", kusala citta or akusala citta in the case of non-arahats) (10) javana-citta (11) javana-citta (12) javana-citta (13) javana-citta (14) javana-citta (15) javana-citta (16) tadaalambana-citta (registering-consciousness) which is vipaaka citta (17) tadaalambana-citta (registering-consciousness) After the “sense-door process” of seventeen moments has been completed, there are bhavanga-cittas again and then the object can be experienced by cittas arising in a “mind-door process.” Before we go on to mind-door process, I would like to present the simile given in the books with regard to “the sense-door process.” The visual object that impinges on the eye-door may be compared with the falling of a mango fruit. Suppose a weary traveler is asleep at the foot of a mango tree. This state of being asleep is analogous to the quiet flow of the stream of life-continuum or bhavanga cittas. Now a ripe mango fruit drops to the ground near the traveler. This event is similar to the striking of a visible object at the eye-door. The sound of the mango fruit striking the ground awakens the traveler and causes him to raise his head. This event is similar to the appearance of the visible object at the eye-door causing the stream of life-continuum or bhavanga citta to vibrate twice and become arrested. The traveler opens his eyes and looks around to enquire what causes the sound. This conduct is similar to the pa~ncadvaaraavajjana (five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness) adverting the consciousness stream towards the sense object. The traveler sees the mango fruit. This is analogous to the eye-consciousness seeing the object. The man picks up the mango fruit. This is similar to sampaticchana receiving the visual object. The man then inspects the mango fruit whether it is suitable for eating. This is similar to the santirana investing the sense object. The man decides that the mango fruit is good and edible. This is similar to the votthapana deciding that the sense object is good. Being hungry, the man bites the mango fruit seven times eating and enjoying the taste. This is similar to the occurrence of seven javana cittas enjoying the taste of the sense object. Then the man gathers the remnants of the fruit and the juice sticking on the teeth with his tongue and swallows twice. This is similar to the two tadaalambana cittas following the javana cittas and enjoying the taste of the sense object. Then the man lies down and falls asleep. This is similar to the bhavanga cittas sinking into life-continuum. [Note: Here, one point to note is that at the stage of votthapana citta, when the decision is made whether the sense object is good or bad, it does not mean that the traveler will bite the mango fruit and eat it only if it is good and edible. If the seventeen-moment cognitive process runs its full course, the traveler will eat the fruit whether it is good or bad, and the javana cittas will follow. The role of votthapana citta in a normal seventeen-moment full process is just to decide whether the object is good or bad. Another point to note is that the seventeen cittas listed above arise in an orderly manner one after the other without jumping the queue. For example No. 5 will follow No. 4 immediately, or No.8 is immediately followed by No. 9 etc. As mentioned earlier, it is to be noted that at any given moment, there can be only one citta; and no two cittas can arise at the same time.] The mind-door process will be in the next post. Metta, Han #84247 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Howard, I wanted to add a bit more: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > 2) What was called the lesser (or, really, inferior/small) > vehicle was, > > so far as I know, the old Sarvastivadin school, which certainly > failed to > > properly grasp the teaching of anatta and that was only one among > many early > > schools and not "the original Dhamma." > > James: To the Mahayana perspective, the Sarvastivadin became the > Theravadin over time and there is no significant difference. The > Theravadin is still know, today, as the lesser vehicle. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That has not been my experience from my reading works by the Dalai Lama > or by modern Zen masters such as Thich Nhat Hanh , and it was not at all what > I saw or heard during the time I spent at the Ch'an Center of New York. > --------------------------------------------------------- Last weekend, I went to a Tibetan temple near my apartment which follows the lineage and tradition of the Dalai Lama. They gave me some English books and the first one I started to read is 'Making Life Meaningful' by Lama Zopa Rinpoche, published 2008. On page 17, the very first chapter, it reads: "Even if you have realized the wisdom directly perceiving the very nature of phenomena- the ultimate nature of the I and mind- if you have no compassion, no good heart, the most you can achieve is simply the nirvana of the Lesser Vehicle path, the sorrowless state for yourself alone; you cannot achieve full enlightenment." Howard, I am surprised that you have never come across this because I come across it all the time in my reading. The Mahayana/Tibetan position is that the Theravada tradition is without compassion, without heart. (Of course, when I read about all of KS 'cold showers' and Nina and Sarah telling their loved ones that they don't exist, I think they may have a good point!). Metta, James #84248 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities nilovg Hi James, you make me laugh. Go to Thailand and meet Kh Sujin and all my Thai friends, instead of critizising. Op 21-mrt-2008, om 11:05 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Mahayana/Tibetan > position is that the Theravada tradition is without compassion, > without heart. (Of course, when I read about all of KS 'cold showers' > and Nina and Sarah telling their loved ones that they don't exist, I > think they may have a good point!). ------- I add: Acharn Sujin explains in her “Perfections”: “When we recognize the characteristic of aversion as akusala, pańńĺ which sees the disadvantage and the ugliness of aversion and all akusala dhammas is the condition for kusala dhammas to further develop... If one does not normally develop satipaěěhĺna, one does not know the characteristics of realities which are appearing one at a time as only nĺma dhammas and rúpa dhammas. Then other kinds of kusala do not arise easily and there are conditions for akusala to arise more rapidly. However, if someone knows the characteristics of realities that are appearing just as they are, and he knows the characteristic of nĺma dhamma as just nĺma, not a being or a person, and the characteristic of rúpa dhamma as just rúpa, not a being or a person, his endurance and patience will increase and also other kinds of kusala will further develop." As to the cold showers, this was an expression I once used. Kh Sujin did not go along with it I heard recently. Sometimes we hear things we do not like to hear or are not ready for yet. But when something is true it is compassion to help people not to drown in the ocean of concepts. Nina. #84249 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Phil) - In a message dated 3/21/2008 12:25:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Dummy...er, I mean, Phil ;-)), Good to see you back again. Hope your meditation has been fruitful. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > However, James made a point some time back that I keep thinking about. > Why is that "there are no beings" included in wrong view?. (James will > say "because there are, dummy! ;) ) I would not say that! It is included in wrong view because some people do hold that wrong view, and it is dangerous for them: And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html#micchaditthi ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: James, thank you for quoting this sutta! From time to time I think of posting it but never get around to it. As I see it, this presents wrong view as a complete denial of conventional phenomena, replacing the middle-way perspective on existence, particularly of aggregations (including Dhamma practitioners) but also of volition and volitional consequence, by a thoroughgoing nihlism, which is a "falling off to the left. " Do note, though, that right view is divided in this sutta into two categories: right view with "effluents," which is the limited right view of non-arahants, and right view without effluents, which is the right view that completes the lesser right view and is what I would call "the view from nibbana" - the perspective from the mountaintop, which is the perfect, panoramic perspective. Incidentally, I think this is a place where one can clearly see the Buddha presenting what has come to be called "the two truths." The Buddha doesn't speak of the lesser right view as a species of wrong view, but as a limited *right view*, and I think it is important to note that. Perfect right view, the perfection of view, is exactly one of the paramitas - the perfection of wisdom. And note that the Buddha does not put the content of that into words. He does not do so, I believe, because supramundane wisdom is the wisdom that goes beyond. ------------------------------------------------------------ "When a person has wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration, wrong knowledge, & wrong release, whatever bodily deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever verbal deeds... whatever mental deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever intentions, whatever determinations, whatever vows, whatever fabrications, all lead to what is disagreeable, unpleasing, unappealing, unprofitable, & stressful. Why is that? Because the view is evil. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.104.than.html Metta, James ==================================== With metta, Howard #84250 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:50 am Subject: This Holiday upasaka_howard Hi, all - To those of you with a Christian background and who still feel a heart warmth for that tradition, and for those of you who can see the promise of spiritual rebirth and awakening as "deep meaning" for resurrection, I wish you a very happy Easter. :-) With metta, Howard #84251 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? sarahprocter... Hi Howard, James & Phil, --- upasaka@... wrote: >J: And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, > nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad > actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, > no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, > faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next > after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is > wrong view. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html#micchaditthi > ----------------------------------------------------------- .... S: This is the serious wrong view of annihilation and this passage is repeated in many suttas. In MN 41, Nanamoli/Bodhi give the following summary explanation to the same quote in note 425: "This is a morally nihilistic materialist view that denies an afterlife and kammic retribution. "There is nothing given" means that there is no fruit of giving; "no this world, no other world" that there is no rebirth into either this world or a world beyond; "no mother, no father" that there is no fruit of good conduct and bad conduct towards mother and father. The statement about recluses and brahmins denies the existence of Buddhas and arahants." A lot more is said about this under "The Doctrine of Ajita Kesakambala" in the Saamma~n~naphala Sutta and its commentary. For example, in B.Bodhi's translation of these (BPS wheel), it says: "Cy. By denying kamma one denies its result [because there is no result when there is no kamma]. By denying the result one denies kamma [because when there is no result, kamma becomes inefficacious]. Thus all these thinkers [S: inc. Ajita], by denying both (kamma and its results), in effect espouse acausalims (ahetukavaada), the inefficacy of action (akiriyavaada), and moreal nihilism (natthikavaada)." Metta, Sarah p.s Thanks for raising good points, Phil:-) ================ #84252 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:05 am Subject: Re: Craving conditions clinging by conascence condition? philofillet Hi Nina > N: When it is a condiiton by way of decisive support it does not > arise together. > For conascence etc. condition, I shall post today. What a remarkable coincidence (for me at least) that you are posting in your vism. project just the thing I've been studying and starting to discuss a little at e-sangha, re craving and clinging. I will absorb your post and return with any questions. Thanks. Metta, Phil #84253 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (27) nilovg Dear Han, Op 21-mrt-2008, om 10:47 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Then the man gathers the > remnants of the fruit and the juice sticking on the > teeth with his tongue and swallows twice. This is > similar to the two tadaalambana cittas following the > javana cittas and enjoying the taste of the sense > object. --------- N: I like the simile here. Still hanging on to the object. Just a remark: I think it is more : 'deciding' whether kusala cittas or akusala cittas follow. The object may be unpleasant, but still, kusala cittas can follow. This happens because of accumulated inclinations. Nina. #84254 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:50 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, The objects of mindfulness grouped as the four Applications of Mindfulness are of infinite value and a source of inspiration, reminding us of dhamma appearing in daily life. Often we are forgetful of nĺma and rúpa, we are absorbed in concepts of people and events. However, all the sections of the “Satipatthĺnasutta” can bring us back to nĺma and rúpa as they appear one at a time through the six doorways. Here we can see the power of the Buddha's teachings. In the first Application, Mindfulness of the Body, all the aspects of the body that are explained here serve as a means of being non- forgetful of rúpas. Mindfulness of the Body begins with Mindfulness of Breathing. One may wonder whether this does not indicate that it is necessary to develop first samatha with this subject. Those who have accumulations for samatha can develop Mindfulness of Breathing up to the stage of jhĺna, but, in order to reach the goal, they must also develop insight when they have emerged from jhĺna. They should penetrate with insight the jhĺna-factors and the jhĺnacittas lest they take these for self. The whole “Satipatthĺnasutta” deals with insight. Breath is actually rúpa conditioned by citta. We cling to breath, we cannot live without it, and we take it for granted that we are breathing day in day out. When we are breathing, rúpas may appear that are tangible object: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion and pressure. We are usually forgetful of nĺma and rúpa, but the subject of Mindfulness of Breath can bring us back to realities appearing at this very moment. We read in the Commentary to the “Satipaěěhĺnasutta” (Middle Length Sayings I, 10) in which ways one should contemplate “the Body in the Body”. We read: “The bhikkhu sees, the body in the body, (1) as something impermanent; (2) as something subject to suffering; (3) as something that is soulless; (4) by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; (5) by freeing himself of passion for it; (6) with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; (7) and not by way of laying hold of it, but by way of giving it up.” This refers to the development of the different stages of insight. The three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattĺ are penetrated and in the course of the development of insight one can become detached from realities. We read, “with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination”, and this refers to freedom of the cycle of birth and death. We read in the “Satipatthĺnasutta” about the postures of going, standing, sitting and lying down, and about clear comprehension in all one's actions. We read: “And further, o bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: ‘I am going’...”. The same is said of the other postures. The Commentary explains: “Who goes? No living being or person whatsoever. Whose going is it? Not the going of any living being or person. On account of what does the going take place? On account of the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity...” Thus, being aware of the postures is not just knowing what one is doing, but we should realize that there are only elements, nĺma and rúpa, arising because of conditions. As we read, the process of oscillation or motion born of mental activity occurs. When mindfulness of the body is applied, it does not mean that there is no awareness of nĺma. Both nĺma and rúpa occur all the time and their difference should be discerned by pańńĺ. ***** Nina. #84255 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:44 am Subject: Re: This Holiday truth_aerator Hi Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > To those of you with a Christian background and who still feel a heart warmth for that tradition, and for those of you who can see the promise of spiritual rebirth and awakening as "deep meaning" for resurrection, I wish you a very happy Easter. :-) > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard, Its pretty offensive to tell a Buddhist to "get reborn"... Hahahaha. Anyhow, Did you know that Buddha was... A Christian Saint (feast day Nov 27)? That explains why he is sometimes depicted with a Xtian halo, and so is Buddha Mettreyya)... Heard of Barlaam (Alara Kalama?) and Josephat (Bodhisatta)? His story was one of the greatest stories ever told... Ok I think that in reality he rejected Xtianity (which may have been taught by Alara Kalama) and (Hindu Judaism, Brahman = Abraham) Furthermore Sanskrit Mahaparinibbana sutra apparently is too similiar to the story of Christ... And remember, Mary Magdalene = Maya from Magadhi??? History just got stranger... Lots of metta, Alex #84256 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:26 am Subject: Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply: TG: "Well, Abhidhamma and commentarial thought ARE 'other opinions.' There usefulness is problematic. I think the Buddha taught to see the Dhamma for yourself, not through the eyes of a conglomerate commentary..." Scott: We differ almost orthogonally here, TG. Perhaps we can slow way down at this point. For example, this sutta you quoted, SN 22(10): "...a virtuous bhikkhu should carefully attend to the five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as disinegrating, as empty, as nonself..." Scott: You posit the following: "...This is why you get the Buddha as saying things like -- the 5 khandhas are murderous, poison, darts, disease, tumors, etc., and then saying that THIS is seeing them 'as they really are.' Ven. Sariputta describes the reflection on 'this type' of insight as part of the path that leads all the way to arahatship..." Scott: This assertion is made entirely without a consideration of the Paa.li from which the translation was offered. And the Paa.li I provided: "...bhikkhunaa sa~nacupaadaanakkhandhaa aniccato dukkhato rogato ga.n.dato sallato aghato aabaadhato parato palokato su~n~nato anattato yoniso manasikaatabbaa..." Scott: This would be the first attempt at clarifying that I think anyone interested in forming an opinion about the meaning of a given passage in the suttas would seek, prior to forming an opinion. In the absence of this, you suggest, based on your own free-association, that the sutta refers to 'the reflection on this type of insight'. When shown that the sutta seems to refer to yoniso manasikaara, you don't seem to reconsider your assertion. And this is even before one might seek further 'clarification' of meaning by recourse to canonical Abhidhamma or the Commentaries. Did this 'clarification', based solely on the Paa.li text, when it showed that what you thought the sutta was about could not have been correct, have an effect on your thesis? You chose not to address this aspect of the reply at all. May I ask why? Sincerely, Scott. #84257 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: This Holiday upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 3/21/2008 12:45:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > To those of you with a Christian background and who still feel a heart warmth for that tradition, and for those of you who can see the promise of spiritual rebirth and awakening as "deep meaning" for resurrection, I wish you a very happy Easter. :-) > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard, Its pretty offensive to tell a Buddhist to "get reborn"... Hahahaha. --------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-) -------------------------------------------- Anyhow, Did you know that Buddha was... A Christian Saint (feast day Nov 27)? --------------------------------------------- Howard: Didn't know that. ;-) -------------------------------------------- That explains why he is sometimes depicted with a Xtian halo, and so is Buddha Mettreyya)... ------------------------------------------ Howard: If you say so. ---------------------------------------- Heard of Barlaam (Alara Kalama?) and Josephat (Bodhisatta)? ------------------------------------------ Howard: I've heard of both. As for Balaam (and his donkey), I've not heard of any Buddhist association. As for Josephat, yeah I've heard that "bodhisattva story". --------------------------------------- His story was one of the greatest stories ever told... ----------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! Sounds like a promising title. ----------------------------------------- Ok I think that in reality he rejected Xtianity (which may have been taught by Alara Kalama) and (Hindu Judaism, Brahman = Abraham) ---------------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! Love that last one! ---------------------------------------------- Furthermore Sanskrit Mahaparinibbana sutra apparently is too similiar to the story of Christ... And remember, Mary Magdalene = Maya from Magadhi??? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, boy! (The other Mary - Mary, mother of Jesus - would be more appropriate.) --------------------------------------------- History just got stranger... --------------------------------------------- Howard: Depends on what one reads, I guess! ;-) --------------------------------------------- Lots of metta, Alex ======================= With metta, Howard #84258 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (27) hantun1 Dear Nina, > > Han: The role of votthapana citta in a normal seventeen-moment full process is just to decide whether the object is good or bad. > Nina: I think it is more : 'deciding' whether kusala cittas or akusala cittas follow. The object may be unpleasant, but still, kusala cittas can follow. This happens because of accumulated inclinations. Han: I think 'deciding' whether kusala cittas or akusala cittas follow, only happens at secondary mind-door process, which immediately follows sense-door process. I may be wrong, though. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I think it is more : 'deciding' whether kusala > cittas or akusala > cittas follow. The object may be unpleasant, but > still, kusala cittas > can follow. This happens because of accumulated > inclinations. > Nina. > #84259 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:35 pm Subject: present moment lbidd2 Hi all, This might provide food for thought regarding the present moment: http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/229 Larry #84260 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (27) some questions for Nina hantun1 Dear Nina, May I ask you some questions? Kindly help me, please. Question (1) When does eye-consciousness arise in relation to viithi processes? Does it arise after the seventeen mind-moments of sense-door process, or after the secondary mind-door process which immediately follows sense-door process? ------------------------------ There are fourfold presentation of objects at sense-door process: (i) the course ending with registration (tadaarammana-vaara) (ii) the course ending with javana (javana-vaara) (iii) the course ending with determining (votthapana-vaara) (iv) the futile course (mogha-vaara) Question (2) In which vaara does the eye-consciousness arise, if it arises after the sense-door process? ------------------------------ There are also fourfold presentation of objects at mind-door process: (i) the course ending with registration (very clear ati-vibhuuta presentation) (ii) the course ending with javana (clear vibhuuta presentation) (iii) the course ending with mind-door adverting (obscure avibhuuta presentation) (iv) a very obscure ati-avibhuuta presentation Question (3) In which presentation does the eye-consciousness arise, if it arises after the mind-door process? ------------------------------ In Akusala vipaka cittas, there are Upekkha-sahagatam sampaticchana-cittam (receptive-consciousness accompanied by indifference) Upekkha-sahagatam santirana-cittam (investigating-consciousness accompanied by indifference) In Ahetuka Kusala Vipaka Cittas, there are Upekkha-sahagatam sampaticchana-cittam (receptive-consciousness accompanied by indifference) Upekkha-sahagatam santirana-cittam (investigating-consciousness accompanied by indifference) Somanassa-sahagatam santirana-cittam (investigating-consciousness accompanied by joy) Question (4) What is the difference between the above sampaticchana-citta and santirana-citta and the following cittas with the same names which arise during the seventeen mind-moments of sense-door viithi process? sampaticchana-citta (receiving-consciou sness) santirana-citta (investigating- consciousness) Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #84261 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 247, 248, and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, I don't see exactly how craving conditions views, particularly self view. Or, if craving only arises _with_ views, then it must be feeling that conditions both craving _and_ views. Could you say something about the psychology of such developments, if that is abhidhammically possible? What is the psychology of craving as decisive support for self view? And what is the psychology of feeling as decisive support for craving _and_ self view? Maybe "psychology" is itself a view. If that is the case could you tell me some other kind of story that would make it easier to understand how self view arises? Larry #84262 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 3/21/2008 11:26:35 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: "...This is why you get the Buddha as saying things like -- the 5 khandhas are murderous, poison, darts, disease, tumors, etc., and then saying that THIS is seeing them 'as they really are.' Ven. Sariputta describes the reflection on 'this type' of insight as part of the path that leads all the way to arahatship..pa Scott: This assertion is made entirely without a consideration of the Paa.li from which the translation was offered. And the Paa.li I provided: "...bhikkhunaa sa~nacupaadaanakkha"...bhikkhunaa sa~nacupaad ga.n.dato sallato aghato aabaadhato parato palokato su~n~nato anattato yoniso manasikaatabbaa.yon Scott: This would be the first attempt at clarifying that I think anyone interested in forming an opinion about the meaning of a given passage in the suttas would seek, prior to forming an opinion. In the absence of this, you suggest, based on your own free-association, that the sutta refers to 'the reflection on this type of insight'. When shown that the sutta seems to refer to yoniso manasikaara, you don't seem to reconsider your assertion. And this is even before one might seek further 'clarification' of meaning by recourse to canonical Abhidhamma or the Commentaries. ................................................................. TG: This is what Nyanatiloka says regarding "yoniso manasikaara -- "In a more general sense, the terms appears frequently in the Suttas as yoniso-manasikara, 'wise (or reasoned, methodical) attention' or 'wise reflection'. It is said, in M.2, to counteract the cankers ) asava, q.v.); it is a condition for the arising of Right View (s. M. 43), of Stream-entry (s. sotapattiyanga); and for the Factors of Enlightenment (s. S. XLVI, 2, 49, 51)." Let's see...wise attention, wise reflection, counter-acting asavas, a condition for Stream-entry, Right View, and the Factors of Enlightenment ... according to Nyanatiloka. Being that its was in the Sutta in which Sariputta was teaching that I quoted, and you can confirm this perhaps, it would seem it is also a condition for Once-returner, Non-returner, and Arahatship. And what was your point regarding that term, the Sutta, and the way I mis-understood it? TG OUT (PS, won't be back for 9 days.) #84263 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:21 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (113) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - This is the continuation of Chapter 3 The Perfection of Renunciation. Satipatthaana cannot arise all the time, but still, the fact that one has listened to the Dhamma and accumulated understanding of the development of satipatthaana, all these factors are conditions for the arising also of other levels of sati. There can be sati of the level of the excellent qualities that are the perfections. [1] Each perfection implies a level of refined sati. We should develop satipatthaana together with all the perfections, and this for an endlessly long time. We shall know that satipatthaana can gradually grow, together with the perfections which we have developed and accumulated. In order to realize the four noble Truths, all the perfections should be developed, not only generosity and morality, but also renunciation, the giving up of clinging to the sense objects. We also need to have the perfections of energy and patience, we should have endurance and we should not be disturbed by the sense objects, be they desirable or undesirable. We read that the Bodhisatta in one of his former lives considered the true nature of his akusala, he knew that it often arose. He realized how difficult it was to give up clinging to the sense objects. We read in the Commentary to the “Susíma Jaataka”(no. 411) that the Bodhisatta considered the citta which had to strive after the giving up of clinging to sense objects, to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object: “The Bodhisatta considered: a sick person cannot turn himself over by his own strength. The hospital nurse has to attach a string so that he can pull himself up, and he should exhort him with the words, ‘come, pull this string so that you can turn yourself over.’ When he pulls that string he can turn himself over and experiences bodily wellbeing, but he does not find mental ease, be it even slight. This situation is the same as when beings are inflamed because of their defilements: they cannot uplift themselves and turn away from defilements by means of happiness arising from solitude.” If there is no clinging to the sense objects, one will have true calm, there will be happiness arising from solitude; one is tranquil and free from clinging to the sense objects. However, in order to become uplifted and turn away from defilements, to become free from clinging, to depart from sense pleasures, we need the assistance of the perfections we have accumulated. Only in that way can we renounce the sense pleasures. Note [1] Each kusala citta is accompanied by sati that is heedful, non-forgetful of what is kusala. Thus, there are many levels of sati: sati of daana, of siila, of samatha and of satipatthaana. Sati of satipatthaana is non-forgetful of the characteristic of reality, naama or ruupa, that appears. To be continued. Metta, Han #84264 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive sarahprocter... Hi TG, I'll keep this short as it may be too late for you.... --- TGrand458@... wrote: > (PS, won't be back for 9 days.) .... S: Is it a holiday/retreat or other? Wishing you a good trip/break and will look forward to further discussions on your return. I'd like to discuss more about khandhas with you then. I saw your note in which you suggested I hadn't replied to this topic, but hadn't seen anything particularly addressed to me on it! Let me know any # of post you'd like comments on. Btw, did you have any further comments on the Girimananda sutta and my comments on that? Anyway, I've appreciated all our recent discussions and those you've been having with others. Metta, Sarah ======= #84265 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Insignificant (paritta.m) dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- han tun wrote: > it is difficult for me to regard ALL sense plane > dhammas as paritta dhammas. It may be due to my lack > of real understanding. But to consider panna or mahaa > kusala cittas associated with ~naana without which one > cannot attain magga ~naana, as insignificant dhammas, > is too much for me. .... S: Yes, I understand. You raise a good point. First, I'd like to re-quote from the Atthasaalinii, correcting a typo in the Pali: Atthasaalinii, (PTS, Triplets in the Maatikaa): "In the triplet of 'Limited,' (parittattike) the word 'limited' is applied to a little mass (kha.n.ditattaa), as in 'a small or little mass of cowdung,'[SN iii 144]etc., because of its being cut off all round. States which, because of their small power are like little objects, are called 'limited,' a name given to things pertaining to the universe of sense(kaamaavacara dhammaanam). 'Sublime' (mahaggataa) means 'having reached greatness,' from ability to discard corruptions, from the abundance of fruition, from the length of duration; or it means 'have been reached by great persons.' i.e., persons with noble intention, energy, impulse, and understanding.(chandaviriyacittapa~n~nehi pa.tipannaa)" .... S: I agree that it's difficult to consider "panna or mahaa kusala cittas associated with ~naana without which one cannot attain magga ~naana" as being 'like little objects', even thought they are kaamaavacara dhammas. Let's consider it further. [It's interesting, btw, that it mentions the great persons here as with chanda, viriya, citta and pa~n~na. I think this relates to your discusion on adhipati paccaya (predominance condition).] In the Vism., IV, 74, the text refers to how the change-of-lineage (gotrabhu) "transcends the limited (paritta)[sense-sphere] lineage and brings into being the exalted [fine-material-sphere] lineage." This is also true in the case of the attaining of the arupa jhanas and lokuttara cittas. A note to this from the Tiika, Pm. 134) says: "But the limited should be regarded as the materiality peculiar to the sense-sphere states, which are the resort of craving for sense desires, and destitute of the exalted (fine material and immaterial) or the unsurpassed (supramundane). The exalted lineage is explainable in the same way." Also, I think that paritta (limited) also refers to those cittas with a limited/insignificant object. For example, in Vism. XIV, 15 it says: "...the understanding that occurs contingent upon sense-sphere states has a limited object. That which occurs contingent upon fine-material-sphere states or immaterial-sphere states has an exalted object. That is mundane insight. That which occurs upon nibbana has a measureless object. That is supramundane insight. So it is of three kinds as having a limited, an exalted, or a measureless object." S: I think here it clearly indicates mundane insight as being paritta (insignificant) on account of its insignificant object. Finally, in Rhys David's translation of the Dhsg 1019, it says: "Which are the states that are limited? All states, good, bad and indeterminate, which relate to the universe of sense; in other words, the five skandhas." You already quoted this, but she adds a footnote which includes this comment: "Paritta.m, ......The illustration chosen is that of a lump of cowdung! [S: see Atth. quote above]. The essential quality is appaanubhaavataa, i.e of little importance or efficacy generally. Paritta.m itself is ranked as an equivalent of the whole sphere of sense-experience. Asl 44." S: For me, it's all a reminder of how even moments of right understanding now are insignificant and certainly not worth clinging to. Of course, I'll be interested to hear any of your further comments and it's also another good topic to discuss further with A.Sujin. Metta, Sarah ================= #84266 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (27) nilovg Dear Han, Op 21-mrt-2008, om 22:02 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: I think 'deciding' whether kusala cittas or > akusala cittas follow, only happens at secondary > mind-door process, which immediately follows > sense-door process. I may be wrong, though. ------- N: I put the word deciding between brackets. It is only one extremely short moment and we should not think of deciding in conventional sense. It is the manodvaaraavajjana citta, mind-door adverting consciousness, that is called in the sense-door process the votthapanacitta. Votthapana is determining. But even this is a name that may create confusion. Both in the sense-door process and in the mind-door process there is a citta just before the javanacittas that is kiriyacitta, inoperative citta, and which precedes the javanacittas. It is called manasikaara, the 'controller of the javanacittas', javanapa.tipaadaka. There are three kinds of manasikaar: one is cetasika, two are cittas. The other citta that is manasikaara is the pancadvaaravajjanacitta, the five sense-door adverting consciousness. This is called the controller of the sense- door process, viithipa.tipaadaka. You think of the mind-door process because the type of citta is manodvaaraavajjana citta, mind-door adverting consciousness. But, as said, in the sense-door process this performs the function of votthapana. Nina. #84267 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Insignificant (paritta.m) dhammas hantun1 Dear Sarah, Your explanation of paritta dhamma is excellent! Of the references you have given, I have only Visuddhimagga to refer to, and this is enough to support your statements. In the Vism., IV, 74, the text refers to how the change-of-lineage (gotrabhu) "transcends the limited (paritta) [sense- sphere] lineage and brings into being the exalted [fine-material- sphere] lineage." This is also true in the case of the attaining of the arupa jhanas and lokuttara cittas. Vism. XIV, 15 it says:"...the understanding that occurs contingent upon sense-sphere states has a limited object (parittaaramma.naa). That which occurs contingent upon fine-material- sphere states or immaterial-sphere states has an exalted object (mahaggataaramma.naa). That is mundane insight (lokiya vipassanaa). That which occurs upon nibbana has a measureless object (appamaa.naaramma.naa). That is supramundane insight (lokuttara vipassanaa). So it is of three kinds as having a limited, an exalted, or a measureless object.(evam parittamahaggataappmaa.naaramma.navasena tividhaa)" So I gratefully accept your explanation. No more comments. If you present this to Khun Sujin, I am sure I will be nicely fired :>) Respectfully, Han #84268 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (27) hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: I put the word deciding between brackets. It is only one extremely short moment and we should not think of deciding in conventional sense. It is the manodvaaraavajjana citta, mind-door adverting consciousness, that is called in the sense-door process the votthapanacitta. Votthapana is determining. But even this is a name that may create confusion. Both in the sense-door process and in the mind-door process there is a citta just before the javanacittas that is kiriyacitta, inoperative citta, and which precedes the javanacittas. It is called manasikaara, the 'controller of the javanacittas' , javanapa.tipaadaka. There are three kinds of manasikaar: one is cetasika, two are cittas. The other citta that is manasikaara is the pancadvaaravajjanacitta, the five sense-door adverting consciousness. This is called the controller of the sense- door process, viithipa.tipaadaka. You think of the mind-door process because the type of citta is manodvaaraavajjana citta, mind-door adverting consciousness. But, as said, in the sense-door process this performs the function of votthapana. Han: It is very clear now. Thank you very much. It has been very useful. Respectfully, Han #84269 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:03 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Patthaana (27) some questions for Nina nilovg Dear Han, Your questions are always very welcome. I enjoy it so much to talk about the Dhamma, no matter which subject. Op 22-mrt-2008, om 2:29 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Question (1) When does eye-consciousness arise in > relation to viithi processes? > Does it arise after the seventeen mind-moments of > sense-door process, or after the secondary mind-door > process which immediately follows sense-door process? ------- It arises within the eye-door process, it is the second citta after the eye-door adverting-citta, which does not see yet, but just adverts to the visible object that has impinged on the eyesense. Seeing does not arise in the mind-door process, but visible object that was seen is experienced by cittas in the subsequent mind-door process. These cittas do not see. I give you the whole list (also see in Htoo's files): Counting from the “past bhavanga”, there are seventeen moments of citta if the sense-door process of cittas runs its full course. Rúpa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, and thus it falls away when that process is over. The seventeen moments of citta are as follows: 1 atíta-bhavanga (past bhavanga) 2 bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) 3 bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga, the last bhavanga arising before the object is experienced through the sense-door) 4 five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness (pańcadvĺrĺvajjana-citta), which is a kiriyacitta 5 sense-cognition (dvi-pańcavińńĺůa, seeing-consciousness, etc.), which is vipĺkacitta 6 receiving-consciousness (sampaěicchana-citta), which is vipĺkacitta 7 investigating-consciousness (santíraůa-citta) which is vipĺkacitta 8 determining-consciousness (votthapana-citta) which is kiriyacitta 9 javana-citta (”impulsion”, kusala citta or akusala citta in the case of non-arahats) 10 “ “ 11 “ “ 12” “ 13” “ 14” “ 15” “ 16 registering-consciousness (tadĺrammaůa-citta) which may or may not arise, and which is vipĺkacitta 17 registering-consciousness ---------- H: There are fourfold presentation of objects at sense-door process: (i) the course ending with registration (tadaarammana-vaara) (ii) the course ending with javana (javana-vaara) (iii) the course ending with determining (votthapana-vaara) (iv) the futile course (mogha-vaara) Question (2) In which vaara does the eye-consciousness arise, if it arises after the sense-door process? ------- N: See the list above about seeing. It only arises within a sense- door process, in this case the eye-door process. A sense-door process does not always run its full course. When a rúpa impinges on one of the senses it may happen that more than three bhavanga-cittas pass before the sense-door adverting-consciousness arises, and then the process cannot run its full course, but it is interrupted earlier, since rúpa cannot last longer than seventeen moments of citta. The rúpa may have fallen away before the tadĺrammaůa-citta is due to arise, and in that case the process ends with the javana-cittas. The process of cittas which experience rúpa may also end its course with the votthapana-citta, determining- consciousness, and then the javana-cittas do not arise. Or it may happen that the “vibrating bhavanga”, bhavanga calana, succeeds the past bhavanga, atíta-bhavanga, but that the arrest bhavanga, bhavangupaccheda (last bhavanga before the stream of bhavanga-cittas is arrested and a sense-door process begins), does not arise and then there cannot be any sense-door process. In that case there is a “futile course”. ------- H: There are also fourfold presentation of objects at mind-door process: (i) the course ending with registration (very clear ati-vibhuuta presentation) (ii) the course ending with javana (clear vibhuuta presentation) (iii) the course ending with mind-door adverting (obscure avibhuuta presentation) (iv) a very obscure ati-avibhuuta presentation Question (3) In which presentation does the eye-consciousness arise, if it arises after the mind-door process? ------- N: I shall give the list of the subsequent mind-door process: After a sense object has been experienced through a sense-door it is experienced through the mind-door, and then that object has just fallen away. Before the mind-door process begins there are bhavanga- cittas and the last two of these are specifically designated by a name. There are the following cittas: bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) bhavangupaccheda (which is in this case the mind-door through which the cittas of the mind-door process will experience the object) mind-door-adverting-consciousness (mano-dvĺrĺvajjana-citta) which is kiriyacitta 7 javana-cittas 2 tadĺrammaůa-cittas (which may or may not arise). After the mind-door process has been completed there are bhavanga- cittas again. This is a process running its full course. But also the mind-door process can be broken off. I looked up Kh Sujin's Survey, Ch 11: > --------- > H: In Akusala vipaka cittas, there are > Upekkha-sahagatam sampaticchana-cittam > (receptive-consciousness accompanied by indifference) > Upekkha-sahagatam santirana-cittam > (investigating-consciousness accompanied by > indifference) > > In Ahetuka Kusala Vipaka Cittas, there are > Upekkha-sahagatam sampaticchana-cittam > (receptive-consciousness accompanied by indifference) > Upekkha-sahagatam santirana-cittam > (investigating-consciousness accompanied by > indifference) > Somanassa-sahagatam santirana-cittam > (investigating-consciousness accompanied by joy) ------- > > Question (4) What is the difference between the above > sampaticchana-citta and santirana-citta and the > following cittas with the same names which arise > during the seventeen mind-moments of sense-door viithi > process? -------- N: In the first case they are akusala vipaakacittas experiencing an unpleasant object. In the second case they are kusala vipaakacittas experiencing a pleasant object. When the object is very pleasant the santiira.nacitta is accompanied by happy feeling. This feeling is also vipaaka. It is kamma that condiitons these different types of vipaakacittas and also their accompanying feelings. Nina. #84270 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? matheesha333 Hi TG, a "being" is a conditionally relative "system" of interacting and > altering elements held together and propagated by craving and false views, then I > would say yes, there are beings. I'd probably prefer to call it a "becoming" Do you think that upadana/clinging giving rise to bhava/becoming happens all the time? I felt that it is in those moments where there has been previous craving (say, craving for a certain type of food), which in turn has given rise to upadana, which gives rise to bhava - as close as we can get to seeing 'rebirth' -a thought of that same food popping up into our heads, apparently from nowhere, but caused by upadana, based on previous craving. This thought would contain the 4 aggregates. If it arose in a foetus, it would contain 5. I am deliberating between this and the idea of bhava happening every single moment, because that is what most insight meditators seem to sense. I would like to know your thoughts on this. I guess the question is what factors are involved in giving rise to every moment? with metta Matheesha #84271 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 247, 248, and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 22-mrt-2008, om 4:27 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I don't see exactly how craving conditions views, particularly self > view. Or, if craving only arises _with_ views, then it must be feeling > that conditions both craving _and_ views. -------- N: No, craving, lobha, does not arise all the time with di.t.thi. Of the eight types of lobha-muulacitta four are associated with wrong view and four are without wrong view. It is in the explanation of D.O. that we see: feeling conditions craving. The D.O. demonstrates how we continue in the cycle of birth and death, but it is not exhaustive in mentioning all the different conditions for the dhammas that occur. Also when we say: it conditions, we have to think: when and in what way. We should not forget that ignorance is a condition for craving and wrong view. ---------- > L: Could you say something about > the psychology of such developments, if that is abhidhammically > possible? What is the psychology of craving as decisive support for > self > view? And what is the psychology of feeling as decisive support for > craving _and_ self view? > Maybe "psychology" is itself a view. If that is the case could you > tell > me some other kind of story that would make it easier to understand > how > self view arises? -------- N: It arises because of the latent tendency of wrong view. This is deeply accumulated and very stubborn. When there is an opportunity it conditions lobha-muulacitta accompanied by wrong view. It is said in the sutta that one loves oneself most of all. (to Queen Mallika) One can check this for oneself, no psychology needed for this. Nina. #84272 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? nilovg Dear Matheesha, Op 22-mrt-2008, om 11:08 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > I guess the question is what factors are involved in giving rise to > every moment? ------ N: Every moment of citta? I think we have to be very precise here. There are many different cittas and all of them arise because of different types of conditions. Seeing is vipaaka, produced by kamma. Attachment to what we see is caused by the latent tendency of sense desire. The forthcoming Visuddhimagga sections will deal with clinging conditioning bhava, becoming. Two kinds : kamma process becoming (active) and upatti bhava: becoming as result, the arising of rebirth- consciousness. ***** Nina. #84273 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:27 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, All the sections in the Satipathĺnasutta give us examples of different situations in life that can remind us of being aware of the dhamma appearing through one of the six doors. We read in the section on clear comprehension, sati-sampajańńa, that the monk had to practise clear comprehension in all his actions, such as walking, bending, stretching, wearing robes and bowl, eating, chewing, speaking and being silent. The Commentary explains that there is no self who eats. The process of digestion goes on because of conditions. We read: “There is no one who, having put up an oven and lit a fire, is cooking each lump standing there. By only the process of caloricity the lump of food matures. There is no one who expels each digested lump with a stick or pole. Just the process of oscillation or motion expels the digested food.” In the section on the Repulsiveness of the Body we read about hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin and so on. This is again a reminder of dhamma in daily life. We can notice these parts of the body time and again, and they can remind us that what we take for the body are only elements that are impermanent and not self. In the same way the section on the Elements can bring us back to reality when we are distracted. What we take for “our important body” are only elements devoid of self. The cemetery contemplations are recollections of death. We read that when the bhikkhu sees a corpse he thinks of his own body thus: “Verily this body of mine, too, is of the same nature as that body, is going to be like that body, and has not got past the condition of becoming like that body.” The second Application of Mindfulness is the Contemplation on Feeling. One moment we have great anxiety and sadness and this is accompanied by unhappy feeling, and the next moment there can very quickly be a change to pleasant feeling when we laugh about something, even about our worries. Feelings change before we can do anything about them, they are beyond control. It is very difficult to be aware precisely of feeling. The Abhidhamma is very precise, but we usually think of a mixture of many phenomena, bodily and mental. Through the Abhidhamma we can have a basic knowledge of the different processes of cittas that experience different objects and that each have appropriate conditions for their arising. It is important to know that seeing arises in one process of cittas and thinking in another process and that they experience different objects, and also, that on account of these experiences different feelings arise. The understanding of conditions will make it clearer that feelings are non-self. ******* Nina. #84274 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Insignificant (paritta.m) dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > So I gratefully accept your explanation. No more > comments. > If you present this to Khun Sujin, I am sure I will be > nicely fired :>) ... S: :>) You have lots of ammunition and you'll be firing back on any topic, I know...!! Metta, Sarah ========== #84275 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > you make me laugh. Go to Thailand and meet Kh Sujin and all my Thai > friends, instead of critizising. James: I don't need to go to Thailand to meet K. Sujin to know that I don't like her. You give me plenty of evidence of the type of person she is: The venerable Bhikkhu asked Acharn Sujin: "Where can I find a statue of the Buddha in the Foundation building so that I can pay respect to the Buddha. I went around looking everywhere for a statue, but I could not find it. In every temple all over the world one can see Buddha statues, and people attach great importance to them." Acharn Sujin answered: "It may happen that people who attach importance to a Buddha statue are inclined to believe that the Buddha will protect them when they pay respect. They may be attached to ceremonies. But, the understanding of the teachings is what is most important in our life. The Buddha gave us his teachings so that we can develop understanding of all phenomena of our life and eradicate defilements completely. We actually pay respect to the Buddha at any time we understand the teachings. In the Foundation there is no a statue, but relics of the Buddha are being kept here. An image of the Buddha or his relics can remind us of his excellent qualities, of his wisdom, his purity and his compassion." James: KS is a completely pompous prat in this exchange. She assumes the reason why all people want to pay respects to a Buddha statue...and she is dead wrong about the main reason! People show respect to a Buddha statue not to "protect themselves" but to give reverence to the Buddha and to show HUMILITY. People bow to the Buddha statue to remind themselves and reinforce HUMILITY. But, of course, KS would know nothing about that because she knows nothing of humility! Lecturing a monk! She has some nerve! But, oooohhh she keeps relics of the Buddha! How impressive! That is nothing more than a status symbol for her. She can't have just a plain, ole, statue to bow in front of, she must have genuine relics to keep around like expensive jewels! Again, I see no demonstration of humility. I don't like KS and I don't think I will ever like KS. And I don't think that meeting her would make any difference in that. Metta, James #84276 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thoughts on practice sarahprocter... Hi Howard,. We were discussing concentration (ekaggata cetasika) --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: Exactly - one object of consciousness and there is always a "focus > on > that object", otherwise it wouldn't be experienced. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Huh? It is a fact that there is but one object at a time. Are you > saying > that without this cetasika there would be more than one? ... S: No, I'm saying that without this cetasika (or any of its 'partner cetasikas', there wouldn't be any object experienced. Citta is the leader and it needs its assistants. ... >Are you saying > it > is a choosing of one out of many? If not, I get nothing from this. ... S: No, ekaggata cetasika doesn't choose anything. It concentrates or focusses on the object being experienced. This is happening at each moment now as we talk. .... > S: Vism, XIV, 139 > "Its characteristic is non-wandering, or its characteristic is > non-distraction. Its function is to conglomerate conascent states as > water > does bath powder." > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Non-wandering to WHAT? I get no genuine meaning from this. > -------------------------------------------- S: It assists the citta and other cetasikas to be 'fixed' on the object. This is so no matter what the object. For example, I was referring to the serious wrong views as discussed in detail in the Sammanaphala Sutta and commentary, such as the one you and others were discussing in MN 117, the annihilationist view. The Sammanaphala Sutta elaborates on how one becomes accustomed to the wrong view over a period of time, believing it to be true. "The mind becomes one-pointed": by gaining such particular conditions as applied thought, etc., the mind becomes steadied on its object; it abandons diffuseness and becomes one-pointed, as if absorbed. "Wrong concentration" (michaasamaadhi) is spoken of under the heading of "mind". For that concentration, gaining the power of the development through special conditions, performs the function of pervertedly concentrating the mind on its object, as in the case of sharp-shooting archers, etc." ... > S: If there were no 'focus', there'd be no experiencing of the object, > just as if there were no 'contact', no 'marking', no 'co-ordinating' > etc, there'd be no experiencing of the object. This is why these >universal mental factors are essential for the arising of cittas and >for life to go on from moment to moment. The cittas and cetasikas >condition each other by conascence and mutuality conditions at each >moment. ... > ============================ > Sarah, I read your words, but I do not get the meaning. What IS > focusing? The questions I posed before still remain, as far as I'm > concerned. Sorry. .... S: Isn't there a natural attending to or focussing on the visible objects, the mind objects and so on now? What about when driving the car, watching television and so on? Mostly there's akusala concentration throughout the day. Nothing to apologise for, but I'm not sure I can say more. Metta, Sarah ======= #84277 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha (and TG) - In a message dated 3/22/2008 6:08:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dhammachat@... writes: Hi TG, a "being" is a conditionally relative "system" of interacting and > altering elements held together and propagated by craving and false views, then I > would say yes, there are beings. I'd probably prefer to call it a "becoming" Do you think that upadana/clinging giving rise to bhava/becoming happens all the time? I felt that it is in those moments where there has been previous craving (say, craving for a certain type of food), which in turn has given rise to upadana, which gives rise to bhava - as close as we can get to seeing 'rebirth' -a thought of that same food popping up into our heads, apparently from nowhere, but caused by upadana, based on previous craving. This thought would contain the 4 aggregates. If it arose in a foetus, it would contain 5. I am deliberating between this and the idea of bhava happening every single moment, because that is what most insight meditators seem to sense. I would like to know your thoughts on this. I guess the question is what factors are involved in giving rise to every moment? with metta Matheesha ================================ I'm glad you raised this matter. My perspective on this is complex and somewhat amorphous, but I think the matter is a very important one. A few thoughts that come to mind are the following: I do think that the there is an ever-repeating cycle of sense-of-self --> craving (or aversion) ---> attachment (a.k.a. clinging) ---> becoming (i.e., gestation of sense-of-self) --> (re-arising of) sense-of-self, and when the final two links occur with the attachment arising at the moment of bodily death, they describe the mental aspect of the rebirth process, with the re-arising of sense-of-self co-occurring with the first instant of vi~n~nana in the new lifetime. Note: 1) The arrows in the foregoing are "conditionality arrows" indicating the former dhamma being one among many requisite conditions for the latter dhamma, and 2) By 'vi~n~nana' I do not mean the mere activity of consciousness that has two mutually dependent aspects/faces, namely knowing and known, but, rather, an ignorance-defiled, dualistic knowing beset by the hardened seeming of a separate, self-existent, knowing subject ("I" or "me") in contact with a separate, self-existent, known entity ("it" or "that"). With metta, Howard #84278 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thoughts on practice upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/22/2008 7:22:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard,. We were discussing concentration (ekaggata cetasika) --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: Exactly - one object of consciousness and there is always a "focus > on > that object", otherwise it wouldn't be experienced. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Huh? It is a fact that there is but one object at a time. Are you > saying > that without this cetasika there would be more than one? ... S: No, I'm saying that without this cetasika (or any of its 'partner cetasikas', there wouldn't be any object experienced. Citta is the leader and it needs its assistants. ... >Are you saying > it > is a choosing of one out of many? If not, I get nothing from this. ... S: No, ekaggata cetasika doesn't choose anything. It concentrates or focusses on the object being experienced. This is happening at each moment now as we talk. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: But, Sarah, that is the whole point! What does it *mean* to concentrate or focus on the object? The object is present and it is known. That is what consciousness is - the operation of knowing an object. What exactly is the "focusing" you are speaking of? --------------------------------------------- .... > S: Vism, XIV, 139 > "Its characteristic is non-wandering, or its characteristic is > non-distraction. Its function is to conglomerate conascent states as > water > does bath powder." > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Non-wandering to WHAT? I get no genuine meaning from this. > -------------------------------------------- S: It assists the citta and other cetasikas to be 'fixed' on the object. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Fixed as opposed to what? Sarah, can this not be made clear? If not, it is empty words. ------------------------------------------------------ This is so no matter what the object. For example, I was referring to the serious wrong views as discussed in detail in the Sammanaphala Sutta and commentary, such as the one you and others were discussing in MN 117, the annihilationist view. The Sammanaphala Sutta elaborates on how one becomes accustomed to the wrong view over a period of time, believing it to be true. "The mind becomes one-pointed": by gaining such particular conditions as applied thought, etc., the mind becomes steadied on its object; it abandons diffuseness and becomes one-pointed, as if absorbed. "Wrong concentration" (michaasamaadhi) is spoken of under the heading of "mind". For that concentration, gaining the power of the development through special conditions, performs the function of pervertedly concentrating the mind on its object, as in the case of sharp-shooting archers, etc." -------------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to me that at any time a multiplicity of phenomena, for example the various rupas comprising a kalapa, arise, but only one is taken as object. If there is the tendency to drop that object and run to another, that is when concentration is weak or missing. When the opposite is the case, and there is little or no such tendency, concentration is strong. Thus, concentration is non-distraction. -------------------------------------------------- ... > S: If there were no 'focus', there'd be no experiencing of the object, > just as if there were no 'contact', no 'marking', no 'co-ordinating' > etc, there'd be no experiencing of the object. This is why these >universal mental factors are essential for the arising of cittas and >for life to go on from moment to moment. The cittas and cetasikas >condition each other by conascence and mutuality conditions at each >moment. ... > ============================ > Sarah, I read your words, but I do not get the meaning. What IS > focusing? The questions I posed before still remain, as far as I'm > concerned. Sorry. .... S: Isn't there a natural attending to or focussing on the visible objects, the mind objects and so on now? What about when driving the car, watching television and so on? Mostly there's akusala concentration throughout the day. Nothing to apologise for, but I'm not sure I can say more. Metta, Sarah ============================ With metta, Howard #84279 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:30 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Patthaana (27) some questions for Nina hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your answers. I am satisfied with the answers to my first three questions. But I wish to speak again with regard to my Question (4) > > Han: In Akusala vipaka cittas, there are Upekkha-sahagatam sampaticchana-cittam (receptive-consciousness accompanied by indifference) Upekkha-sahagatam santirana-cittam (investigating-consciousness accompanied by indifference) In Ahetuka Kusala Vipaka Cittas, there are Upekkha-sahagatam sampaticchana-cittam (receptive-consciousness accompanied by indifference) Upekkha-sahagatam santirana-cittam (investigating-consciousness accompanied by indifference) Somanassa-sahagatam santirana-cittam (investigating-consciousness accompanied by joy) ------- Question (4) What is the difference between the above sampaticchana-citta and santirana-citta and the following cittas with the same names which arise during the seventeen mind-moments of sense-door viithi process? -------- > Nina: In the first case they are akusala vipaakacittas experiencing an unpleasant object. In the second case they are kusala vipaakacittas experiencing a pleasant object. When the object is very pleasant the santiira.nacitta is accompanied by happy feeling. This feeling is also vipaaka. It is kamma that condiitons these different types of vipaakacittas and also their accompanying feelings. -------- Han: I was not comparing sampaticchana-citta of Akusala vipaka cittas and sampaticchana-citta of Ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas. I was not comparing santirana-citta of Akusala vipaka cittas and two kinds of santirana-cittas of Ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas. I was looking for the difference between sampaticchana-citta of Akusala vipaka cittas and sampaticchana-citta of Ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas on one hand, and sampaticchana-citta of seventeen mind-moments of sense-door process on the other. I was looking for the difference between santirana-citta of Akusala vipaka cittas and santirana-cittas of Ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas on one hand, and santirana-citta of seventeen mind-moments of sense-door process on the other. I am sorry I had not made myself clear. Respectfully, Han #84280 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities nilovg Hi James, Op 22-mrt-2008, om 12:18 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > I don't like KS and I don't think I will ever like KS. --------- N: Showing humility may be fake humility. We should know the different cittas that arise. There may be such a lot of attachment we take for humility when paying respect. That is why she emphasizes right understanding always. The relics were given, and why should anyone be proud on account of these? It does not matter a statue or relics, what matters are the cittas. When we say: I do not like him or her, what are the cittas like? Is there true metta? That is why we have to scrutinize ourselves. We need understanding of the different cittas for the devlopment of the Brahmaviharas. As to metta: we have benevolence for anybody, we wish them well, we consider all people as our friends. Nina. #84281 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:39 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Patthaana (27) some questions for Nina nilovg Dear Han, I do not understand your question. Sampaticchanacitta is part of the process and counting the bhavangacittas there are seventeen cittas. The same for santiira.nacitta. See my list. They are within this series, not separate. Some cittas are vipaaka, some kitiya, some kusala or akusala. Nina. Op 22-mrt-2008, om 14:30 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I was looking for the difference between > sampaticchana-citta of Akusala vipaka cittas and > sampaticchana-citta of Ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas on > one hand, and sampaticchana-citta of seventeen > mind-moments of sense-door process on the other. > > I was looking for the difference between > santirana-citta of Akusala vipaka cittas and > santirana-cittas of Ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas on > one hand, and santirana-citta of seventeen > mind-moments of sense-door process on the other. #84282 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:47 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Patthaana (27) some questions for Nina hantun1 Dear Nina, I understand now. They are within the series, not separate. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > I do not understand your question. > Sampaticchanacitta is part of the > process and counting the bhavangacittas there are > seventeen cittas. > The same for santiira.nacitta. See my list. They are > within this > series, not separate. Some cittas are vipaaka, some > kitiya, some > kusala or akusala. > Nina. #84283 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thoughts on practice sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > But, Sarah, that is the whole point! What does it *mean* to > concentrate > or focus on the object? The object is present and it is known. That is > what > consciousness is - the operation of knowing an object. What exactly is > the > "focusing" you are speaking of? > --------------------------------------------- S: As I said before, if there were not the attendant cetasikas performing their various functions such as 'marking' the object, 'contacting' the object, 'focussing on the object' etc, there could not be any experiencing or 'knowing' of an object. For example, we read again and again in the suttas about 'contact' (phassa) as an essential condition for the experiencing of a visible object and so on. Without contact, there is no 'operation of knowing an object'. The phassa cetasika arises with the citta (in this case seeing consciousness), as you know. They condition each other. The same applies to concentration (ekaggata cetasika). The four mental khandhas are in other words related to each other by conascence condition (sahajaata paccaya). They all condition each other at each moment of arising. .... > S: It assists the citta and other cetasikas to be 'fixed' on the > object. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Fixed as opposed to what? Sarah, can this not be made clear? If > not, it > is empty words. > ------------------------------------------------------ ... S: As opposed to not 'fixed', not 'focussed'. I'm sorry, but I don't understand the difficulty with this. .... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It seems to me that at any time a multiplicity of phenomena, for > example > the various rupas comprising a kalapa, arise, but only one is taken as > object. ... S: Yes. .... >If there is the tendency to drop that object and run to > another, that is > when concentration is weak or missing. ... S: No, that last sentence is incorrect. Each citta (and accompanying cetasikas) arise for an instant, experience an object and fall away. In the case of a sense door process, the visible object is experienced by up to 17 cittas and no more. The fact that the v.o. is experienced by up tp 17 cittas and no more has nothing to do with concentration being weak or missing. After visible object, bhavanga cittas arise, experiencing their object. Again, concentration is never missing. Now, in the case of jhana cittas, the same object is repeatedly experienced by succeeding jhana cittas due to the strength of the jhana factors, including the concentration, of course. However, even in the case of lokuttara cittas, the object (nibbana) is only experienced by one magga citta and then by 2 or 3 phala cittas. .... >When the opposite is the case, > and > there is little or no such tendency, concentration is strong. Thus, > concentration > is non-distraction. > -------------------------------------------------- .... S: 'Non-disctraction' is a description of concentration regardless of whether it is strong or weak, kusala or akusala. At moments of being absent-minded or non-attending to the task in hand, there is still ekaggata cetasika arising at each moment. In your original message you mentioned that you'd also thought "that the "concentration cetasika" might be a kind of subtle cetana - a tendency/inclination to extend the current object "to the max" (traditionally 17 mind moments)." S: This makes no sense to me. We can discuss the conditions for the sense object to be experienced "to the max" if you like. This relates much more to the object itself and at which part of its cycle it is experienced. I'm sorry if I'm not being clear or if what I say makes no sense!! Metta, Sarah ======= #84284 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:59 am Subject: Patthaana (28) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of (4) Proximity Condition (anantara-paccaya) and (5) Contiguity Condition (samanantara-paccaya) taken together. In my last post I have presented how consciousness (cittas) arise one after the other, without any gap in time, and in an orderly manner (in accordance with citta-niyaama), in the “sense-door process.” I will now take up the “mind-door process.” [Nina had explained the mind-door process just now, and Nina’s explanation will over-rule what I am now writing, in case there is discrepancy.] When one of the six sense-objects enters the avenue of the mind-door directly, we get primary mano-dvaara viithi. But there are also secondary mano-dvaara viithis which follow each and everyone of the pa~nca-dvaara viithi (viithi at eye-door, ear-door, nose-door, tongue-door, and body-door). In the pa~nca-dvaara viithi, the sense-impression is processed only to the extent to be known roughly whether it is good or bad. The form, shape, detailed features, name and other information about the object are not known yet. After pa~nca-dvaara viithi, a mano-dvaara viithi quickly follows. Just as when a gong is struck once by a baton, the gong sends forth a continuous stream of reverberations, so when one of the five sense doors has been impinged upon once by a sense object, after the sense-door process has ceased the past sense object comes into range at the mind-door and sets off many sequences of mind-door processes. Because these cognitive processes come as the sequel to a five sense-door process, they are known as secondary mano-dvaara viithis. Only after many secondary mano-dvaara viithis, does one know the object together with form, shape, name and other details. -------------------- The study of sense-door process and the mind-door process is to show that the cittas follow the law of cittas (citta-niyaama) and that: (a) the conditioning consciousness causes the conditioned consciousness to arise immediately without any time gap (anantara); and (b) the conditioning consciousness causes the conditioned consciousness to arise immediately without any time gap, and in accordance with the fixed order of the mental process. (samanantara). The cittas arise and fall away very fast. We cannot experience the individual seventeen cittas listed above. We know that sequence only because the Buddha had taught us in the Abhidhamma. But what we can experience is the product of these viithis, such as eye-consciousness or ear-consciousness. When a bird is singing, we see the bird with eye-consciousness and hear its singing by ear-consciousness. But as the cittas arise and fall away very fast, we think that we see and hear the bird at the same time. But in actual fact, when we see the bird we cannot hear it sings. When we hear it sings we cannot see it. There is only one consciousness at any given time. Come to think of it, we are alive only on one citta (with its accompanying cetasikas) at a time. Just like a big wheel touches the ground only at one point at a time, we are alive by one citta (with its accompanying cetasikas) at a time. In the study of cetasikas (mental factors) there is one cetasika called “jiivitindriya” (jiivita = life + indriya = controlling factor) which sees to it that one consciousness follows the preceding consciousness immediately without any break, as long as we are alive in this existence. [There is also one ruupa or matter, called “jiivita-ruupa” or the life faculty of the matter. It sees to it that when one ruupa falls away another ruupa arises in its place.] Then, what happens to jiivitindriya when one dies? Together with other cittas and cetasikas it also ceases with the dying-consciousness at the time of death, and new cittas and cetasikas, including jiivitindriya, arise with re-birth consciousness in the next life. If it is a life controlling faculty, why can’t it keep the cittas and cetasikas alive indefinitely? There is fourfold advent of death. (1) aayukkhaya-marana, death due to the expiration of the age-limit. (2) kammakkhaya-marana, death due to the expiration of the reproductive kammic force. (3) ubbayakkhaya-marana, death due to the expiration of both the age-limit and kamma. (4) upacchedaka-marana, death due to the intervention of a destructive kamma – it is sudden death such as the one encountered in car-accident or suicide. So, when the person dies due to any one these causes jiivitindrya cannot do anything. It itself will cease. During the course of our present life, say, when eye-consciousness falls away and is followed by ear-consciousness, we are not afraid of falling away of eye-consciousness. So, why should we be afraid of when the last citta in this life (cuti citta or dying consciousness) falls away and is followed by patisandhi citta (rebirth-consciousness) of the next life? After all, it is only citta-niyaama, and the whole process is just “one” continuous stream of cittas throughout the entire samsara. It’s just food for thought! The Pali verses and the translations will be in the next post. Metta, Han #84285 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive jonoabb Hi TG I'm probably too late to catch you before your spell away, but I've been meaning to come in on this thread for some time. TGrand458@... wrote: > NEW TG: Were the terms -- disease, tumor, dart, and alien addressed? Can > one insightfully see "consciousness," for example, as a dart or tumor from > your point of view? Aren't those symbolic representations? Or do you think the > Buddha literally thought we should see consciousness as a "Dart" and that > THIS is consciousness's "characteristic and function" and seeing consciousness > for what it really is? So maybe we should throw "consciousness" at dart > boards? ;-) > > > Dart is meant to express something that causes pain. But as a teaching, one > needs to take the idea "dart" and convert it to seeing something that is > causing pain. This conversion is a conceptual process. > I do not see any necessary inconsistency between direct insight into the true nature of presently arisen dhammas (khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas, etc) and a description of those dhammas in the suttas as being like a disease, a tumor, a dart, and alien. I agree with you that these terms are to some extent symbolic representations, and need to be understood in more detail (as given in the commentary). But the gaining of the appropriate knowledge remains a case of direct experiencing of presently arisen dhammas. By that development, the true meaning of the words of the sutta become apparent. > I believe the reason these types of terms are used is to "jolt" or almost > "shock" a mind into a more mindful and deeply insightful disposition, and try to > bring about revulsion and detachment. > I don't see where you get this from. The sutta gives ground for reflection for those who are sufficiently advanced to benefit from it, but the development of awareness/insight remains the same: attention to a presently arisen dhamma. Where is the necessity for inferential knowledge (of the kind you refer to) as part of insight development? Hoping you see this on your return. Jon #84286 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive jonoabb Hi TG I have gone back to your original post in this thread . > "Any kind of form whatsoever ... , whether past, future, or present, > internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near -- one > sees all [of these] as it really is with correct wisdom thus: This is not > mine, this I am not, this is not my self. ..." > > So the Buddha demonstrates various ways to see the 5 Aggregates in order to > "view them properly" and to utilize them as insight to overcome attachment.... > > 1) Past, future, or present ... Of these three, only one has the possibility > of "direct knowledge." The other two are certainly inference. > > ... > > So 11 ways to insightfully realize how the 5 Aggregates "really are." -- > According to the Buddha. Only Two of the Eleven are definitely Direct > Knowledge insights. Four of them are definitely not direct Knowledge insights. And > the others could be included in either or both categories. > > My point is that -- both Direct Knowledge's and Inferential Knowledge's > support each other and they are both crucial to the development of overcoming > suffering. The idea that insight is limited to "knowing present realities" is > absurd. I agree with the general proposition that direct understanding and what you call inferential understanding (what is referred to in the teachings as understanding gained through hearing or through reflecting on what has been heard or directly understood) support each other. There is no doubt but that what we loosely refer to as intellectual understanding must precede direct understanding, and that the direct understanding gained then supports further intellectual understanding. But it is still the direct understanding, and not the intellectual understanding, that constitutes insight. As regards the 11-fold classification of the khandhas, these are also considered to be a matter of direct knowledge, although arguably there is also an element of what might be called inferential knowledge there. I take the "past, present or future" classification as an example. Rupas that are directly known at the present moment become past rupas the next moment, and were merely rupas-to-be (future rupas) the previous moment. But as more and more presently arisen rupas are directly known by ever-developing insight, there comes a point at which it can be said, based on that direct experience, that all rupas that have ever been or that ever will be experienced exhibit the same general rupa characteristic. So it is still a matter of insight into presently arisen dhammas, as I understand the traditional explanation. Jon #84287 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 247, 248, and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "It [self view] arises because of the latent tendency of wrong view. This is deeply accumulated and very stubborn. When there is an opportunity it conditions lobha-muulacitta accompanied by wrong view. It is said in the sutta that one loves oneself most of all. (to Queen Mallika) One can check this for oneself, no psychology needed for this." Larry: Perhaps we could say that plain desire is very close to assuming that what is desired can be obtained. This is a false assumption because nothing can be held or grasped (upadana) for any length of time. From this assumption arise all views. Views attempt to conceptually capture the object. The nature, or non-nature, of concepts is an important element because they seem to persist through time. To think that rupa is me or mine turns a blind eye to the impermanence of that rupa. To desire rupa almost assumes that rupa can be grasped. Once that assumption is made, views of all kinds arise. Larry #84288 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Op 22-mrt-2008, om 12:18 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > I don't like KS and I don't think I will ever like KS. > --------- > N: Showing humility may be fake humility. We should know the > different cittas that arise. There may be such a lot of attachment we > take for humility when paying respect. That is why she emphasizes > right understanding always. James: It is a training. It doesn't matter if the cittas are complete or not. The relics were given, and why should > anyone be proud on account of these? relics can remind us of his excellent qualities, of his wisdom, his > purity and his compassion.> James: You mean to tell me, that in Thailand, no one has ever offered her the gift of a Buddha statue!! Nonsense! > It does not matter a statue or relics, what matters are the cittas. James: And KS is just pompous enough to think that she knows everyone's cittas. > When we say: I do not like him or her, what are the cittas like? Is > there true metta? That is why we have to scrutinize ourselves. We > need understanding of the different cittas for the devlopment of the > Brahmaviharas. As to metta: we have benevolence for anybody, we wish > them well, we consider all people as our friends. James: I just knew that you would jump on this. You seem to have a very superficial understanding of the Dhamma. Just because I try to have metta toward everyone, that doesn't mean I have to "like" the bad qualities in people. I don't like cheats, liars, murderers, or nutty Dhamma teachers who brainwash people. It is the evil qualities they possess which I don't like. Of course, however, I only wish them the best and to turn away from those evil qualities. But, I will not become friends with "fools", as the Buddha called them. > Nina. > Metta, James #84289 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:41 pm Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Howard, James & Phil, > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >J: And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, > > nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad > > actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, > > no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, > > faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next > > after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is > > wrong view. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html#micchaditthi > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Could you explain how this is different from the position of: there is no Nina, Lodewijk, Sarah, James, Buddha, etc. ? Metta, James #84290 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities nilovg Hi James, I would like to continue discussing Dhamma, but I am not going to discuss personalities, please. Nina. Op 22-mrt-2008, om 20:36 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Just because I try to > have metta toward everyone, that doesn't mean I have to "like" the bad > qualities in people. #84291 From: Sukinder Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? sukinderpal Hi James (Nina and Howard), Butting in if you don't mind. I am behind in my reading, which means that I don't know what all has been said so far in this thread. Last night the last post I read was the one you wrote to Howard about the Mahayana belief that Theravada lacked stress in compassion or something like that. ================ > > > >J: And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, > > > nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad > > > actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, > > > no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, > > > faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next > > > after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is > > > wrong view. > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html#micchaditthi > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Could you explain how this is different from the position of: there is > no Nina, Lodewijk, Sarah, James, Buddha, etc. ? > I am bad at interpreting Suttas, however the impression I get here is that the above is talking about a wrong view which does not believe in cause and effect, i.e. kamma and vipakka and perhaps also about accumulations of good and bad. The latter position which has been expressed by some of us on the other hand, is about distinguishing concept from reality. This is based in part and I believe rightly, on having considered that kamma / vipakka in fact is a relationship between realities and that the conventional expression with reference to people and different situations are just the many manifestations. With this understanding, these concepts would in turn act as reminders of what in fact are and should be the object of study/ wisdom / insight, namely the present moment realities. Regarding the Mahayana position on compassion going together with wisdom, just yesterday a newcomer at the Saturday discussions asked the same question. My answer to her was simply that compassion arises only with 'a suffering being' as object, whereas wisdom can and must arise with all objects. So this means that compassion only rarely arises/gets developed together with wisdom. The Mahayana position I believe is nothing but proliferation of "ideas", a failure indeed at understanding the nature of realities. I just got out of bed and still feel somewhat disoriented, perhaps a little later I might see no reason for having written this, so please excuse me. :-) Metta, Sukin #84292 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:34 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (114) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - This is the concluding part of Chapter 3 The Perfection of Renunciation. We read in the Commentary to the “Susiima Jaataka”: “This thought occurred to the Bodhisatta during a past life when King Brahmadatta was reigning in Vaaraanasí. The Bodhisatta was at that time the son of the King’s priest and his name was young Susíma. The King’s son was named young Brahmadatta. The two boys grew up together and learnt all sciences at Takkasíla, and when they had accomplished their studies they came home again. Young Brahmadatta became viceroy, and at his father’s death he became King and made young Susiima his advisor and priest. One day the King went around the city in procession seated on the shoulder of an elephant while he made the priest sit on the back of the elephant. The queen-mother, when she stood and looked out from the royal window, saw the priest sitting behind the King. She fell in love with him and did not want to eat anymore. The King went to see her and asked what ailed her, but the queen mother did not want to tell him because she was ashamed. Thereupon the King sent his chief queen, and the queen-mother spoke about what had happened. The King entreated the priest to become King and he made the queen-mother his chief queen while he himself became the viceroy. From then on the Bodhisatta was disenchanted with the household life. The queen spoke to him in many ways and used several tricks with him so that he would enjoy his reign, but the Bodhisatta taught Dhamma, he showed the delight and the misery of the sense pleasures, and he returned the kingdom to the viceroy. He became an ascetic sage and cultivated the attainments of jhaana and the supernatural powers, so that he became destined for the Brahma world.” At the end of this Jaataka the Buddha explained that the chief queen was Raahula’s mother, the king was Aananda and king Susiima was the Buddha himself. In relating his past lives, the Buddha explained that nobody can know the force of lobha, nor in what way it will arise in each life. Renunciation from sense pleasures is most difficult, and going forth from the household life to become a monk is even more difficult, because the monk should carefully consider and observe the rules of the Vinaya. But anyway, if one wishes to give up sense pleasures, clinging to the sense objects, it is necessary to renounce them by the development of pa~n~naa. One should know the characteristics of realities as not a being, not a person, not self. There may be attachment, aversion, seeing, hearing, jealousy, conceit or thinking of the importance of self, all these phenomena are realities that we refer to as different cittas and cetasikas, as different conditions, as realities that through their arising condition one another. All this is complex and deep in meaning. Pa~n~naa should be able to penetrate the true nature of dhammas at this very moment and realize them as not a being and not self. This is the END of chapter on The Perfection of Renunciation. Metta, Han #84293 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:38 pm Subject: The Perfections - Connie, Sarah, Nina hantun1 Dear Connie, Sarah, Nina and others, I have presented three chapters: 3. The Perfection of Renunciation 6. The Perfection of Patience 10. The Perfection of Equanimity. Connie had presented three other chapters. There are four chapters left. I wish to take them up, but I would rather concentrate on the Patthaana series. I wonder who would be willing to present the remaining chapters. Respectfully, Han #84294 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder wrote: > > Hi James (Nina and Howard), > > ================ > > > > > >J: And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered,nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view. > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html#micchaditt hi > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Could you explain how this is different from the position of: there is > > no Nina, Lodewijk, Sarah, James, Buddha, etc. ? > > > > I am bad at interpreting Suttas, however the impression I get here is that the above is talking about a wrong view which does not believe in cause and effect, i.e. kamma and vipakka and perhaps also about accumulations of good and bad. >>> Ok. But what about OTHER PARTS (there are no beings, no this world, no next world, no father no mother, etc etc). Sound very much like some Abhidhammika positions... Furthermore, the above wrong view is eerie similiar to a "no control, no free will" perspective . Can there really be Kamma (Volition) if there is always only ONE possibility that happens (after all, there is no one to chose from multiple options... only one option is present and that option is acted on.) There really can't be a true volition where there isn't a choice. The determinism of Ajivakas is very similiar to some views being said here. Lots of Metta, Alex #84295 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:20 am Subject: Patthaana (29) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of (4) Proximity Condition (anantara-paccaya) and (5) Contiguity Condition (samanantara-paccaya) taken together. I will now present the Pali verses and English translation. I will start with Anantara-paccaya. Anantarapaccayoti. (1) Cakkhuvi~n~naana-dhaatu tamsampayuttakaa ca dhammaa manodhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaananca dhammaanam anantarapaccayena paccayo. Manodhaatu tamsampayuttakaa ca dhammaa manovi~n~naanadhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaananca dhammaanam anantarapaccayena paccayo. Eye-consciousness element and its associated states are related to mind-element and its associated states by proximity condition. Mind-element and its associated states are related to mind-consciousness-element and its associated states by proximity condition. (2) Sotavi~n~naana-dhaatu tamsampayuttakaa ca dhammaa manodhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaananca dhammaanam anantarapaccayena paccayo. Manodhaatu tamsampayuttakaa ca dhammaa manovi~n~naanadhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaananca dhammaanam anantarapaccayena paccayo. Ear-consciousness element and its associated states are related to mind-element and its associated states by proximity condition. Mind-element and its associated states are related to mind-consciousness-element and its associated states by proximity condition. (3) Ghaanavi~n~naana-dhaatu tamsampayuttakaa ca dhammaa manodhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaananca dhammaanam anantarapaccayena paccayo. Manodhaatu tamsampayuttakaa ca dhammaa manovi~n~naanadhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaananca dhammaanam anantarapaccayena paccayo. Nose-consciousness element and its associated states are related to mind-element and its associated states by proximity condition. Mind-element and its associated states are related to mind-consciousness-element and its associated states by proximity condition. (4) Jivhaavi~n~naana-dhaatu tamsampayuttakaa ca dhammaa manodhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaananca dhammaanam anantarapaccayena paccayo. Manodhaatu tamsampayuttakaa ca dhammaa manovi~n~naanadhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaananca dhammaanam anantarapaccayena paccayo. Tongue-consciousness element and its associated states are related to mind-element and its associated states by proximity condition. Mind-element and its associated states are related to mind-consciousness-element and its associated states by proximity condition. (5) Kaayavi~n~naana-dhaatu tamsampayuttakaa ca dhammaa manodhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaananca dhammaanam anantarapaccayena paccayo. Manodhaatu tamsampayuttakaa ca dhammaa manovi~n~naanadhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaananca dhammaanam anantarapaccayena paccayo. Body-consciousness element and its associated states are related to mind-element and its associated states by proximity condition. Mind-element and its associated states are related to mind-consciousness-element and its associated states by proximity condition. (6) Purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaanam pacchimaanam kusalaanam dhammaanam anantara-paccayena paccayo. Preceding wholesome states are related to subsequent wholesome states by proximity condition. (7) Purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaanam pacchimaanam abyaakataanam dhammaanam anantara-paccayena paccayo. Preceding wholesome states are related to subsequent indeterminate states by proximity condition. (8) Purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaanam pacchimaanam akusalaanam dhammaanam anantara-paccayena paccayo. Preceding unwholesome states are related to subsequent unwholesome states by proximity condition. (9) Purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaanam pacchimaanam abyaakataanam dhammaanam anantara-paccayena paccayo. Preceding unwholesome states are related to subsequent indeterminate states by proximity condition. (10) Purimaa purimaa abyaakataa dhammaa pacchimaanam pacchimaanam abyaakataanam dhammaanam anantara-paccayena paccayo. Preceding indeterminate states are related to subsequent indeterminate states by proximity condition. (11) Purimaa purimaa abyaakataa dhammaa pacchimaanam pacchimaanam kusalaanam dhammaanam anantara-paccayena paccayo. Preceding indeterminate states are related to subsequent wholesome states by proximity condition. (12) Purimaa purimaa abyaakataa dhammaa pacchimaanam pacchimaanam akusalaanam dhammaanam anantara-paccayena paccayo. Preceding indeterminate states are related to subsequent unwholesome states by proximity condition. (13) Yesam yesam dhammaanam anantaraa ye ye dhammaa uppajjanti cittacetasikaa dhammaa te te dhammaa tesam tesam dhammaanam anantara-paccayena paccayo. In proximity to these states, the (other) states, consciousness and mental factors, arise; those (former) states are related to those (latter) states by proximity condition. ------------------------------ The Pali verses and the translations are the same for both the Conditions. To read Contiguity Condition (samanantara-paccaya) it is only necessary to replace anantara-paccayena paccayo with samanantara-paccayena paccayo in the verses. In the above Pali verses you will find the following interesting relations. Preceding kusalaa dhammaa related to subsequent kusalaaa dhamma. Preceding kusalaa dhammaa related to subsequent abyaakataa dhammaa. Preceding akusalaa dhammaa related to subsequent akusalaa dhammaa. Preceding akusalaa dhammaa related to subsequent abyaakataa dhammaa. Preceding abyaakataa dhammaa related to subsequent abyaakataa dhammaa. Preceding abyaakataa dhammaa related to subsequent kusalaa dhamma. Preceding abyaakataa dhammaa related to subsequent akusalaa dhammaa. All such relations will be studied in more detail when we come to (9) Decisive support condition (upanissaya-paccaya) This is the end of (4) Proximity Condition (anantara-paccaya) and (5) Contiguity Condition (samanantara-paccaya) taken together. We will take up (6) Conascence condition (sahajaata-paccaya) starting from next post. Metta, Han #84296 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? matheesha333 Hi Nina, It is nice to be in conversation with you again. I hope you are doing well. > > I guess the question is what factors are involved in giving rise to > > every moment? > N: Every moment of citta? ..> There are many different cittas and all of them arise because of > different types of conditions. Thanks for pointing this out. Yes you are correct. So this means that we cannot consider every moment to be (a type of) bhava. I was wondering whether there are factors like 'jeevitindriya' which are involved in giving rise to every moment of our experiencing? I often wonder if craving or avijja is in a similar way involved in every moment of experiencing because with the fading away of avijja comes nirodha, fading away, cessation of every moment. Do you have any thoughts on this? with metta Matheesha #84297 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? matheesha333 Hi Howard, It's been a while since I posted on DSG. I see the posts are flying away as usual! I hope you are well. > I do think that the there is an ever-repeating cycle of sense- of-self > --> craving (or aversion) ---> attachment (a.k.a. clinging) ---> becoming > (i.e., gestation of sense-of-self) --> (re-arising of) sense-of- self, and when the > final two links occur with the attachment arising at the moment of bodily > death, they describe the mental aspect of the rebirth process, with the > re-arising of sense-of-self co-occurring with the first instant of vi~n~nana in the > new lifetime. One can cling to the view of self - aatovada-upadana, which is one of the 4 upadanas/clingings. Hence a sotapanna's samsaric cycle being shortened through the irradication of self view can be somewhat clarified through this mechanism. There are other types of clinging - kaama-upadana/clinging to sensual objects, silabbata-upadana/clinging to rites and rituals, and ditti- upadana/clinging to views. There was the case where there were people pretending to be goats for the sake of their rites and rituals in ancient India and were to be born in the future as such. I am not any clearer about the other two types of clinging though. with metta Matheesha #84298 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? sarahprocter... Hi James, Thanks for your good question: --- buddhatrue wrote: > > >J: And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, > > > nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad > > > actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no > father, > > > no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, > > > faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next > > > after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is > > > wrong view. > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html#micchaditthi > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Could you explain how this is different from the position of: there is > no Nina, Lodewijk, Sarah, James, Buddha, etc. ? .... S: 1a. "There is nothing given" etc - means there are no fruits of giving. There is a denial of kamma and vipaka, there is no value in developing kusala. It is a very serious wrong view. *** 1b. There are no people, there are only namas and rupas. These namas are kusala (wholesome), akusala (unwholesome), vipaka (result) and kiriya (inoperative). Giving (dana) is performed by kusala cittas which result in kusala vipaka. Instead of there being a denial of kamma and vipaka, the opposite is stressed by the Buddha. ====== 2a. "no this world, no next world" - is a denial of rebirth in any form. All is annihilated at the end of this life. Again, there is a denial of kamma. *** 2b. There are no people, there are only namas and rupas. Rebirth does not refer to rebirth of people but to rebirth of namas (cittas and cetasikas). At the end of this life, the last citta (cuti citta or death consciousness) is succeeded by the first citta (patisandhi citta or rebirth consciousness) of the next life. ===== 3a. "no mother, no father" - is a denial of any value or fruit of right conduct towards parents or any harm in wrong conduct. *** 3b. There are no people, there are only namas and rupas. The Buddha stressed the great value as you know in doing whatever is possible for one's parents. Of course, again in an ultimate sense, what we take for our parents are again namas and rupas, particular streams of accumulations. ====== 4a. "no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves." - is a denial of arhants and Buddhas. *** 4b. There are no people, there are only namas and rupas. The attainment of arahantship refers to magga and phala cittas and definitely the Buddha taught about such attainement. Again, in an ultimate sense, the Buddha does not/did not exist as discussed at length, but the namas and rupas referred to as the Buddha definitely did. ["In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found", Yamaka Sutta, SN 22:85] ====== S: I know the "no Nina, Lodewijk, Sarah, James, Buddha, etc." area is a very difficult one for many to accept. In the end, it comes back to the present moment now. What is seen? What is heard? What is smelt? What is tasted? What is touched? And then, what is thought about? Metta, Sarah ========= #84299 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:12 am Subject: Rare Emergence! bhikkhu0 Friends: Exceptionally Rare is the arising of the Links to Awakening! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, these exquisitely refined & sophisticated Seven Links to Awakening do never arise apart from the appearance of a Well-Come-Well-Gone One, an Arahat, a Perfectly Self-Enlightened Buddha! They never emerge outside the discipline of a thus Happy & Successful One! Which seven? 1: The Awareness Link to Awakening: sati-sambojjhanga. 2: The Investigation Link to Awakening: dhammavicaya-sambojjhanga. 3: The Energy Link to Awakening: viriya-sambojjhanga. 4: The Joy Link to Awakening: pÄ«ti-sambojjhanga. 5: The Tranquillity Link to Awakening: passaddhi-sambojjhanga. 6: The Concentration Link to Awakening: samÄ?dhi-sambojjhanga. 7: The Equanimity Link to Awakening: upekkhÄ?-sambojjhanga. These uniquely advanced, delicate & intricate Seven Factors of Awakening do never emerge other than after the arrival of a TathÄ?gata, an Arahat, a Perfectly Self- Enlightened Buddha! They never emerge outside the discipline of a Fortunate One! How wonderful! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 77] section 46: The Links. 9+10: Arising... Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #84300 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 3/23/2008 4:30:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dhammachat@... writes: Hi Howard, It's been a while since I posted on DSG. I see the posts are flying away as usual! I hope you are well. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! Yes, I'm well. I wasn't doing so well in health terms for a while, but finally that has improved. It's good to see you posting, and I hope you too are very well. :- ---------------------------------------------------------- > I do think that the there is an ever-repeating cycle of sense- of-self > --> craving (or aversion) ---> attachment (a.k.a. clinging) ---> becoming > (i.e., gestation of sense-of-self) --> (re-arising of) sense-of- self, and when the > final two links occur with the attachment arising at the moment of bodily > death, they describe the mental aspect of the rebirth process, with the > re-arising of sense-of-self co-occurring with the first instant of vi~n~nana in the > new lifetime. One can cling to the view of self - aatovada-upadana, which is one of the 4 upadanas/clingings. Hence a sotapanna's samsaric cycle being shortened through the irradication of self view can be somewhat clarified through this mechanism. There are other types of clinging - kaama-upadana/clinging to sensual objects, silabbata-upadana/clinging to rites and rituals, and ditti- upadana/clinging to views. There was the case where there were people pretending to be goats for the sake of their rites and rituals in ancient India and were to be born in the future as such. I am not any clearer about the other two types of clinging though. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As I view the matter, we cling to concepts most especially, even to the concept of such lofty things as nibbana and bodhi (awakening) and, certainly, to thoughts about a variety of lesser kusala phenomena, let alone unwholesome phenomena. Even with regard to our clinging to paramattha dhammas such as pleasant and unpleasant sensations, I think that for the most part, if not entirely, our clinging, per se, is thinking-based, founded on wrong view. While tanha (craving and aversion) typically arises directly from ignorance-defiled contact and does not consistently require thinking for its arising [Even lower animals with little to no thought capacity, seem to experience liking and disliking], the hardened tanha that is upadana is, as I see it, created by cognitive proliferation, often subliminal of course. In the Dhammapada, the Buddha taught the following: Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves. --------------------------------------------------------- with metta Matheesha ============================== With metta, Howard #84301 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:09 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? nilovg Dear Matheesha, It is a pleasure to be in conversation with you again. Op 23-mrt-2008, om 8:59 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > There are many different cittas and > all of them arise because of > > different types of conditions. > > Thanks for pointing this out. Yes you are correct. So this means that > we cannot consider every moment to be (a type of) bhava. ------- N: There are two kinds of kamma bhava: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 250: < That is twofold as kamma-process becoming and rebirth-process becoming, according as it is said: 'Becoming in two ways: there is kamma-process becoming and there is rebirth-process becoming' (Vbh. 137). The first one is active, also occurring in this life, good and evil deeds, and the second one is vipaaka, rebirth in the future. We cannot say that every moment is a type of bhava. --------- > > M: I was wondering whether there are factors like 'jeevitindriya' > which > are involved in giving rise to every moment of our experiencing? ------- Jiivitindriya cetasika arises with every citta and maintains the life of citta and the other cetasikas. It is one of the seven universals arising with each citta. Citta cannot arise without cetasika and cetasika cannot arise without citta. Not only jiivitindriya cetasika arises with each citta also contact, feeling, sa~n~naa, volition, concentration and attention (manasikaara) have to arise with each citta. They each have their own function while assisting citta in cognizing an object. -------- > M: I > often wonder if craving or avijja is in a similar way involved in > every moment of experiencing because with the fading away of avijja > comes nirodha, fading away, cessation of every moment. Do you have > any thoughts on this? -------------- N: So long as the latent tendency of ignorance has not been eradicated we go on in the cycle of birth and death, there is arising of citta that experiences objects. The arahat eradicates all latent tendencies of defilements and thus there will be the end of the cycle. No more rebirth. -------- M in a post to Howard: There are other types of clinging - kaama-upadana/clinging to sensual objects, silabbata-upadana/clinging to rites and rituals, and ditti- upadana/clinging to views. There was the case where there were people pretending to be goats for the sake of their rites and rituals in ancient India and were to be born in the future as such. I am not any clearer about the other two types of clinging though. ----------- N: Text Vis. Ch XVII, 243:[False-] view clinging is the ten-based wrong view, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is [false-] view clinging? There is no giving, no offering, ... [no good and virtuous ascetics and brahmans who have themselves] realized by direct-knowledge and declare this world and the other world: such view as this ... such perverse assumption is called [false] view clinging' (Vbh. 375; Dhs. 1215). See Sarah's post to James for details. Vis.: Rite-and-ritual clinging is the adherence [to the view that] purification comes through rites and rituals, according as it is said: Herein, what is rite-and-ritual clinging? ... That purification comes through a rite, that purification comes through a ritual, that purification comes through a rite and ritual: such view as this ... such perverse assumption is called rite-and-ritual clinging' (Dh. 1216). ------- The Tiika explains that one takes the wrong Path for the right Path. We do not have to think only of cow or ox practice. -------- Self-doctrine clinging is the twenty-based [false] view of individuality, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is self-doctrine clinging? Here the untaught ordinary man, untrained in good men's Dhamma, sees materiality as self ... such perverse assumption is called self-doctrine clinging' (Dhs. 1217). ------- N: This is personality belief, sakkaya dit.t.hi, with four kinds of wrong view to each of the five khandhas: identifying oneself with them, thinking oneself their possessor, being contained in them or being the container of them. Nina. #84302 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:34 am Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? sukinderpal Hi Alex (James), > > > >J: And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered,nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view. > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Could you explain how this is different from the position of: > > there is no Nina, Lodewijk, Sarah, James, Buddha, etc. ? > > > > I am bad at interpreting Suttas, however the impression I get here is that the above is talking about a wrong view which does not believe in cause and effect, i.e. kamma and vipakka and perhaps also about accumulations of good and bad. >>> Alex: Ok. But what about OTHER PARTS (there are no beings, no this world, no next world, no father no mother, etc etc). Sound very much like some Abhidhammika positions... Sukin: Same thing I would say, denial of cause and effect as taught in the Dhamma. In fact these are based on "self / wrong view", one which has taken the existence of people and situations as being real and hence generating a perverted sense of cause and effect (even if that position says, "no cause and effect"). The so called Abhidhamma position being based on the consideration of there being in reality only "dhammas" including the fact of their conditionality, leads to better recognizing wrong view such as the one you mention. So indeed, the two positions are *not* close but in fact while one is wrong, the other is right. ;-) ================== Alex: Furthermore, the above wrong view is eerie similiar to a "no control, no free will" perspective . Sukin: Of course the "free will" idea is wrong!! If one understood conditionality, how could one then talk about will / cetana being free?! The "no control" perspective is based on the acknowledgement and increased understanding about conditionality. It does not deny the possibility of wholesome states being developed and accumulated. In fact the very understanding itself is seen as an instance of "right view" and hence encouraging of more saddha. Saddha not as some associate with `hope' and which invariably conditions fear, but one which sees the present moment as being the only relevant object of consideration and understanding. It is stating with good reason i.e. based on that very moment of right understanding, not only that development of the good can take place but that it does and *how* in fact this happens. I'd say that the resistance to the "no control" perspective is precisely due to yet another perverted idea about "cause and effect". One which takes a certain line of thinking as being `right', identifying this with the dhamma called `cetana' and ascribing to this a function it does not have. ===================== Alex: Can there really be Kamma (Volition) if there is always only ONE possibility that happens (after all, there is no one to chose from multiple options... only one option is present and that option is acted on.) There really can't be a true volition where there isn't a choice. Sukin: Volition is volition; it has particular characteristic, function and proximate cause varying in accordance to the kind of consciousness. The idea of "choice" is something you have added on to cetana and this is probably from observation of cause and effect at the level `self' and conventional situations with no consideration at that moment about what the Dhamma says. If this moment has already arisen and fallen away conditioned variously, including by "object" and this includes those moments where the idea of "choosing" arises, why cling to `making choices' when it comes to dhammas, why not see the value of developing better understanding of these? If ignorance and other unwholesome realities have arisen, instead of being driven to do things to *change* and therefore be lured to adopting wrong practices, is it not better that one were to *understand* better the nature of dhammas at that very moment? Yet if ignorance and attachment could arise now by conditions beyond control, so too can wisdom! And whichever of these realities arise, the difference to future arisings would be made. If hearing the correct explanation about the way things are there is acceptance and understanding, this is development. If on the other hand there is resistance and rejections as you show, who can be blamed? ;-) Indeed it is the difference in the kind of experience of the present moment that the difference in conclusion about the nature of dhammas, the interpretation of Dhamma and the understanding of the Path exists between us. :-/ ===================== Alex: The determinism of Ajivakas is very similiar to some views being said here. Sukin: Don't know what this is, but I seriously doubt there is anything similar at all! :-) Metta, Sukin Ps: I won't be free to reply to anything in the next few days, so please don't expect one. #84303 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin (and Alex & James) -- In a message dated 3/23/2008 8:35:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@... writes: Hi Alex (James), > > > >J: And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered,nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view. > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Could you explain how this is different from the position of: > > there is no Nina, Lodewijk, Sarah, James, Buddha, etc. ? > > > > I am bad at interpreting Suttas, however the impression I get here is that the above is talking about a wrong view which does not believe in cause and effect, i.e. kamma and vipakka and perhaps also about accumulations of good and bad. >>> Alex: Ok. But what about OTHER PARTS (there are no beings, no this world, no next world, no father no mother, etc etc). Sound very much like some Abhidhammika positions... Sukin: Same thing I would say, denial of cause and effect as taught in the Dhamma. In fact these are based on "self / wrong view", one which has taken the existence of people and situations as being real and hence generating a perverted sense of cause and effect (even if that position says, "no cause and effect"). ===================================== Sukin, I don't get it! It seems to me that you are reading this backwards! The sutta says that the position "There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves" is WRONG VIEW. Perfect right view of course is the seeing of the true nature of these things, namely as mere aggregations of empty, conditioned, fleeting dhammas, but it is wrong view to conceive of them as nonexistent. With metta, Howard P. S. I read your closing line - so I do not expect a reply soon. :-) #84304 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:27 am Subject: new recordings sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We've just finished editing another series of discussions with A.Sujin and uploaded these to: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ To find the new edited recordings, scroll down past all the archived posts to the recordings section. The new section is under this heading: Kaeng Krajaan (Thailand), September 2006 (Tom & Beverly, Nina W and the usual suspects) Consider sharing with us all anything you find of special interest, anything you disagree with or any other comments. ***** On another note, Jon and I will be going down to Adelaide in Australia this Tuesday evening for the wedding of Jon's elder brother (2nd marriage*, returning to Hong Kong the following week for just 2 days before going to Bangkok to join Nina and friends there for 2 weeks. I mention this because we'll be doing a lot of travelling and Jon also has urgent work to do before and probably while we're away, so we'll just be posting when we can. We'd appreciate it if you'd all continue to contribute and assist each other (and us!) during this time. .... * I only agreed to the Adelaide trip this afternoon, having previously said 'no', so quite a lot to re-arrange now....We were lucky to get seats. There's a part on the present recordings which I found helpful in this regard. K.Sujin is talking about clinging to our routines and ideas we have about eating the right thing, getting the right sleep and so on, when really we don't know about kamma and so much of the thinking is based on clinging to self or ideas about the body, with so very little awareness of realities. This had come up in the context of a friend's anxieties about electro-sensitivity and the effects on his body and how his sleep would be affected. But actually, we all have ideas about health and sickness and long stories about causes and so on. We take the usual medicines we need to, but the dhamma-medicine just cuts through all these stories, I find, bringing the 'issue' back to the reality now. Is there any understanding of thinking as just thinking now, of seeing as just seeing now, visible object as just visible object now? Metta, Sarah ================= #84305 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? sukinderpal Hi Howard, I have to get up very early tomorrow, but I give myself a few minutes to write a response to you. ========================== > > Sukin: Same thing I would say, denial of cause and effect as taught > in the Dhamma. In fact these are based on "self / wrong view", one > which has taken the existence of people and situations as being real > and hence generating a perverted sense of cause and effect (even if > that position says, "no cause and effect"). > > ===================================== > Sukin, I don't get it! It seems to me that you are reading this > backwards! The sutta says that the position "There is no this world, > no next world, > no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or > contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this > world & the next > after having directly known & realized it for themselves" is WRONG VIEW. > Perfect right view of course is the seeing of the true nature of these > things, namely as mere aggregations of empty, conditioned, fleeting > dhammas, > but it is wrong view to conceive of them as nonexistent. > S: I think everyone goes by belief in some kind of cause and effect, otherwise what motivation would there be to act at all? This cannot be avoided, since view arises often to make sense of experiences and thinking arises all the time to form ideas of people and situations including making evaluations. Even those who believe in annihilation, thats a judgement based on some other idea about cause and effect, even if this changes with change in situation and ends up being mere justification for indulgence in sense pleasures. The denials expressed in the above view are denials of cause and effect in accordance with the nature of reality and is not a denial of conventional reality. Do you really believe anyone would deny the existence of their own parents for instance? Many however, don't know the significance of 'parents' as being part of the condition for their own birth and following that, the gratitude they ought to feel towards them for having brought them up. On the other hand, were someone to accept rebirth in other planes of existence merely at the level of "belief" (influenced by tradition perhaps) but at the same time have no clue about the danger of 'self view', is this good enough? Got to go now. Metta, Sukin #84306 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II jonoabb Hi James >> It is a widely held view that a person who has attained jhana would, on >> hearing the teachings, be able to see dhammas as they truly are. But I >> think this is a misconception. No doubt, there are instances in the >> suttas of persons skilled in jhana who did become enlightened on >> hearing the teachings, but these do not support this as a general >> proposition. >> > > The Buddha described those who had achieved jhana (his former teachers > and ascetics) as "those with little dust in their eyes", so I would > say it is a general proposition. To prove that it isn't you would > have to provide the contrary. > Interesting. Would you mind giving a reference to the sutta you have in mind here. Thanks. > Metta, > James > ps. Against my better judgement, I am just popping into the "jhana > fray". ;-)) > Yes, compelling stuff, isn't it! Jon #84307 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] new recordings nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you for the recordings, anumodana for all the work. I am thinking of one of our friends who was sensitive to all electrical things, so that he became sick. Below is a good reminder and have a very good trip. So unexpected. We never know the next moment. Nina. Op 23-mrt-2008, om 14:27 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I only agreed to the Adelaide trip this afternoon, having previously > said 'no', so quite a lot to re-arrange now....We were lucky to get > seats. > > There's a part on the present recordings which I found helpful in this > regard. K.Sujin is talking about clinging to our routines and ideas we > have about eating the right thing, getting the right sleep and so > on, when > really we don't know about kamma and so much of the thinking is > based on > clinging to self or ideas about the body, with so very little > awareness of > realities. #84308 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 3/23/2008 9:54:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@... writes: Hi Howard, I have to get up very early tomorrow, but I give myself a few minutes to write a response to you. ========================== > > Sukin: Same thing I would say, denial of cause and effect as taught > in the Dhamma. In fact these are based on "self / wrong view", one > which has taken the existence of people and situations as being real > and hence generating a perverted sense of cause and effect (even if > that position says, "no cause and effect"). > > ===================================== > Sukin, I don't get it! It seems to me that you are reading this > backwards! The sutta says that the position "There is no this world, > no next world, > no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or > contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this > world & the next > after having directly known & realized it for themselves" is WRONG VIEW. > Perfect right view of course is the seeing of the true nature of these > things, namely as mere aggregations of empty, conditioned, fleeting > dhammas, > but it is wrong view to conceive of them as nonexistent. > S: I think everyone goes by belief in some kind of cause and effect, otherwise what motivation would there be to act at all? This cannot be avoided, since view arises often to make sense of experiences and thinking arises all the time to form ideas of people and situations including making evaluations. Even those who believe in annihilation, thats a judgement based on some other idea about cause and effect, even if this changes with change in situation and ends up being mere justification for indulgence in sense pleasures. The denials expressed in the above view are denials of cause and effect in accordance with the nature of reality and is not a denial of conventional reality. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, it involves a denial of various aggregations, including certain sorts of people. ------------------------------------------------- Do you really believe anyone would deny the existence of their own parents for instance? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't believe that anyone in their right mind would actually believe in such denial, but do see such denials made on DSG all the time! -------------------------------------------------- Many however, don't know the significance of 'parents' as being part of the condition for their own birth and following that, the gratitude they ought to feel towards them for having brought them up. On the other hand, were someone to accept rebirth in other planes of existence merely at the level of "belief" (influenced by tradition perhaps) but at the same time have no clue about the danger of 'self view', is this good enough? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm afraid I don't follow you. -------------------------------------------------- Got to go now. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Have a good night, and a good day tomorrow. :-) -------------------------------------------- Metta, Sukin ======================== With metta, Howard #84309 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:30 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, We should pay attention to the third Application of Mindfulness that includes all kinds of cittas arising now: kusala citta, akusala citta, indeterminate citta. The first citta that is mentioned is citta with attachment. We should not neglect akusala citta as object of mindfulness. We take akusala citta as well as kusala citta for self, but they arise because of their own conditions. It is natural that kusala cittas and akusala cittas are alternating in our relationship with others. Through the Abhidhamma we learn that detachment accompanies each kusala citta. When we are generous, when we try to help someone else, we should have no preferences for specific people and we should not expect any kindness, any recognition in return. This means that we need equanimity and renunciation or detachment all the time. Through satipatthĺna we come to know the different cittas that arise. Mindfulness of citta is a condition for beginning to distinguish kusala citta and akusala citta. However, we should not forget that the stages of insight develop in a specific order. The first stage of insight is knowing nĺma as nĺma and rúpa as rúpa, and before this stage arises kusala and akusala cannot be clearly realized as nĺma and thus their different characteristics cannot yet be precisely known. The objects of the fourth Application of Mindfulness are the hindrances, the five khandhas, the six internal and external sensebases (ĺyatanas), the seven factors of enlightenment and the four noble Truths. Thus, these are dhammas under different aspects and different cetasikas. We read in the “Satipatthĺnasutta”: "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances. How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances? Here, O bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.'.... When anger is present, he knows with understanding: 'I have anger,' or when anger is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no anger.' ...” We can see how the Abhidhamma helps us to understand the suttas, and how the Abhidhamma is indispensable to start on the right Path. The hindrances are only akusala cetasikas, arising because of conditions, they have no owner. In this sense they are beyond control. But pańńĺ, right understanding developed through satipatthĺna, can eventually eradicate them. The body is with us all the time, when standing, sitting, going, lying down, but we are forgetful of dhammas. We have pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, indifferent feeling all the time, but we are forgetful. It is the same with all the other aspects in the other two Applications of Mindfulness. We are forgetfull, but all sections of the Applications of Mindfulness can bring us back to reality. Often we are dreaming but sometimes there can be non-forgetfulness of visible object, or sound, just one dhamma at a time. When we discern the difference between moments of forgetfulness and a moment, even a single moment, of sati, we can verify its characteristic. This is the right condition for its development. Insight, vipassanĺ, is developed by means of mindfulness of all nĺmas and rúpas appearing in our daily life and these are classified as the four Applications of Mindfulness. There is no specific order according to which there should be awareness. At one moment rúpa may appear, at another moment nĺma may appear. The goal is understanding that can eradicate defilements. ******** Nina. #84310 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/23/2008 11:30:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: We should pay attention to the third Application of Mindfulness that includes all kinds of cittas arising now: kusala citta, akusala citta, indeterminate citta. ========================== What do you mean by "We SHOULD pay attention" (emphasis mine)? Is there a choice? With metta, Howard #84311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 5. nilovg Hi Howard, There is choice but no chooser. Should: in order to reach the goal it is necessary, indispensable, to be aware also of cittas. Nina. Op 23-mrt-2008, om 16:54 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > We should pay attention to the third Application of Mindfulness that > includes all kinds of cittas arising now: kusala citta, akusala > citta, indeterminate citta. > > ========================== > What do you mean by "We SHOULD pay attention" (emphasis mine)? Is > there > a choice? #84312 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 247, 248, and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 22-mrt-2008, om 15:53 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > Larry: Perhaps we could say that plain desire is very close to > assuming that what is desired > can be obtained. This is a false assumption because nothing can be > held or grasped > (upadana) for any length of time. -------- N: Very true. But we also cling lots of times after seeing, hearing etc. without thinking of obtaining something. We do not even notice that there is clinging since we are so used to clinging, it is like a second nature. When we cling to a concept of a 'whole' we may like to obtain things. We do not always have wrong view, we cling also without having any view. -------- Nina. #84313 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:50 am Subject: Q. Re: [dsg] Patthaana (29) nilovg Dear Han, Op 23-mrt-2008, om 8:20 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Eye-consciousness element and its associated states > are related to mind-element and its associated states > by proximity condition. > Mind-element and its associated states are related to > mind-consciousness-element and its associated states > by proximity condition. ------- N: Mind-element is here: receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana citta. Mind-consciousness element that follws upon sampa.ticchana citta is here santiira.na-citta, investigating-consciousness. ------- H: In the above Pali verses you will find the following interesting relations. Preceding kusalaa dhammaa related to subsequent kusalaaa dhamma. ------ N: This is during the javanacittas and there is another relation here: repetition-condition. ------- H: Preceding kusalaa dhammaa related to subsequent abyaakataa dhammaa. ------- N: Abyaakata dhamma, indeterminate dhamma, includes vipaaka and kiriya. Here it is vipaakacitta. The last kusala javanacitta of a series is suceeded by the tadaarammanacitta if it arises, or by bhavangacitta which is also vipaakacitta. Nina. #84314 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II truth_aerator Dear Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > >> It is a widely held view that a person who has attained jhana would, on hearing the teachings, be able to see dhammas as they truly are. But I think this is a misconception. No doubt, there are instances in the suttas of persons skilled in jhana who did become enlightened on hearing the teachings, but these do not support this as a general proposition. > >> > > > > The Buddha described those who had achieved jhana (his former teachers and ascetics) as "those with little dust in their eyes", so I would say it is a general proposition. To prove that it isn't you would have to provide the contrary. > > > > Interesting. Would you mind giving a reference to the sutta you have in mind here. Thanks. > After/During Jhana the Hindrances are GONE, the hindrances which hinder the liberation are temporary blinded (mn25-26). MN26 (or 36?). Where He said that Alara & Udakka would quickly understand. Upanisa sutta where Samadhi is prerequisite for Seeing things as they are. Please don't drop the line that that Samadhi is momentary lasting only for one mind moment. For me and 99.99% of meditators it obviously didn't work. For those who did, we can easily argue that they had done A LOT of Samadhi (and their hindrances were weakened) before meeting the Buddha. MN140 sutta. Buddha has meditated with Pakkusati, and then taught a sutta which caused Pakkusati instant Anagamiship... Remember the Pakkusati was a wonderer already (who meditated before seeing the Buddha) and he has meditated WITH the Buddha for hours (3-4+ ?). Interesting thing, Ananda who heard ALL the suttas of Buddha, but didn't meditate (much or any) in his 20 years of being Buddha's personal attendant, couldn't go further than Sotapanna... But when the Buddha has died, and Ananda COULD meditate, we know the story... :) And again, the most frequently mentioned way toward Arahatship involved (at least) 4 Jhanas + 3 Tevijjas (2 optional). ------ 1) Conscience & concern 2) Purity of conduct 3)Restraint of the senses 4) Moderation in eating 5) Wakefulness 6)Mindfulness & alertness 7) Abandoning the hindrances 8) The four jhanas 9) The three knowledges DN# 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 =12 MN#4, 27,36,39,51,60,65,76,77,79,101,112,119,125 =14 MN125 (with 4 satipathanas b4 2nd and higher Jhana) MN119 (with slight variations, but 3 tevijja are there) 77 - with some additions (but still they happen from/after 4th Jhana) 112 (2 knowledges are omitted, but the final is mentioned) ---- MN Suttas that mention the Jhanas in a significant way (in addition of above): MN 4, 6, 8, 13, 19, 35, 30, 31, 36, 38, 43, 45, 53, 53, 59, 64, 65, 66, 76, 77, 78, 79, 85, 106, 107, 108, 111, 112, 113, 119, 121, 128, 137, 138, 139, 141 http://www.leighb.com/studymn.htm ------ Better than a hundred years lived without virtue, uncentered, is one day lived by a virtuous person absorbed in jhana.And better than a hundred years lived undiscerning, uncentered,is one day lived by a discerning person absorbed in jhana. - Dhp VIII Sahassavagga Thousands 110-115 --- This isn't too much samadhi. There is also another fairly frequent way toward Arahatship. Master ALL 9 Jhanas... Actually Buddha had to master them and then from 4th Realize Tevijjas. Same with Sariputta (mn111) and MahaMoggallana (mogalanasamyutta or jhanasamyutta ?) MN25, MN26 to name a few... "Then again the monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html Notice the "seeing with wisdom", the wisdom gets really sharp after neither perception nor non perception... Lots of Metta, Alex #84315 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:27 am Subject: Do it Urself! bhikkhu0 Friends: Who can do it ? Urge, incite & teach yourself by yourself! Examine & evaluate yourself by yourself! Guard yourself, aware of yourself, by yourself! Bhikkhu & you will live in happiness ... Dhammapada 379 For self is the master of self. For self is the protector of self. For self is the saviour of self. Control therefore yourself by taming, as one who have bought a new horse. Dhammapada 380 Full of Joy, content & satisfied, the Noble friend with perfect confidence in the Teaching of the Buddha, will reach the place of Peace, the unconditionally unconditioned sameness of Happiness itself ... Dhammapada 381 Who can do it? U can do it! More here: http://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutta/KN/Dhammapada.htm Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #84316 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 247, 248, and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "But we also cling lots of times after seeing, hearing etc. without thinking of obtaining something. We do not even notice that there is clinging since we are so used to clinging, it is like a second nature. When we cling to a concept of a 'whole' we may like to obtain things. We do not always have wrong view, we cling also without having any view." Larry: I agree. There can be clinging without wrong view, but we must know what clinging is and isn't. It isn't pleasure or enjoyment. It is sort of a closing of the hand. This grasping may just be a response to pleasant feeling and not signal "mine". But there is still ignorance here, even if no wrong view. The grasping ultimately fails. There is nothing to grasp. The object is gone. I had another thought when I was thinking about this. Does wrong view always arise with self view? If so, I think we could say if there is no desire to save "me" or "you" then rites and rituals need not be classified as wrong view. We might particularly regard Buddhist rites and rituals in this way. Larry #84317 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:30 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,249 Vism.XVII,250 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII [(x) Becoming] 249. As to the clause 'With clinging as condition, becoming': (1) As to meaning, (2) as to state, (3) purpose, (4) analysis, (5) synthesis, (6) and which for which becomes condition, The exposition should be known. 250. 1. 'As to meaning': Herein, it becomes (bhavati), thus it is becoming (bhava). That is twofold as kamma-process becoming and rebirth-process becoming, according as it is said: 'Becoming in two ways: there is kamma-process becoming and there is rebirth-process becoming' (Vbh. 137). Herein, the kamma process itself as becoming is 'kamma-process becoming'; likewise the rebirth process itself as becoming is 'rebirth-process becoming'. And here, rebirth is becoming since it becomes; but just as 'The arising of Buddhas is bliss' (Dh. 194) is said because it causes bliss, so too kamma should be understood as 'becoming', using for it the ordinary term for its fruit, since it causes becoming. This, firstly, is how the exposition should be known here 'as to meaning'. ********************* 249. upaadaanapaccayaabhavapadavitthaarakathaa upaadaanapaccayaa bhavapade -- atthato dhammato ceva, saatthato bhedasa"ngahaa. ya.m yassa paccayo ceva, vi~n~naatabbo vinicchayo.. 250. tattha bhavatiiti bhavo. so kammabhavo upapattibhavo caati duvidho hoti. yathaaha -- ``bhavo duvidhena atthi kammabhavo, atthi upapattibhavo´´ti (vibha0 234). tattha kammameva bhavo kammabhavo, tathaa upapattiyeva bhavo upapattibhavo. ettha ca upapatti bhavatiiti bhavo. kamma.m pana yathaa sukhakaara.nattaa ``sukho buddhaana.m uppaado´´ti (dha0 pa0 194) vutto, eva.m bhavakaara.nattaa phalavohaarena bhavoti veditabbanti. eva.m taavettha atthato vi~n~naatabbo vinicchayo. #84318 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:31 pm Subject: Re: Q. Re: [dsg] Patthaana (29) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your very clear explanations. (1) Text: Eye-consciousness element and its associated states are related to mind-element and its associated states by proximity condition. Mind-element and its associated states are related to mind-consciousness- element and its associated states by proximity condition. ------- Nina: Mind-element is here: receiving-conscious ness, sampa.ticchana citta. Mind-consciousness element that follws upon sampa.ticchana citta is here santiira.na- citta, investigating- consciousness. ------- Han: I am glad that you have given clear meaning of mind-element (mano-dhaatu) and mind-consciousness element (mano-vi~n~naana-dhaatu), here, in this context. In the Abhidhamma books the definitions are complicated and difficult to understand. For example, in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhmma, the mind-element means five-door-adverting consciousness and the two types of receiving consciousness. The mind-consciousness-element means the investigating consciousness, the great resultants, the two accompanied by aversion, the first path consciousness, smiling consciousness, and fine-material-sphere consciousness. The Burmese translation of the same Pali verse also gives the same explanation that you have given. Now that you have confirmed it, I am very happy to take note of it. ==================== (2) Han: In the above Pali verses you will find the following interesting relations. Preceding kusalaa dhammaa related to subsequent kusalaaa dhamma. ------- Nina: This is during the javanacittas and there is another relation here: repetition-condition. ------- Han: When I wrote these series at Triplegem, I could only reach to (10) Prenascence condition (purejaata-paccaya). So I am happy that you have given the reference to (12) Repetition condition (aasevana-paccaya). ==================== (3) Han: Preceding kusalaa dhammaa related to subsequent abyaakataa dhammaa. ------- Nina: Abyaakata dhamma, indeterminate dhamma, includes vipaaka and kiriya. Here it is vipaakacitta. The last kusala javanacitta of a series is suceeded by the tadaarammanacitta if it arises, or by bhavangacitta which is also vipaakacitta. ------- Han: I also thank you for this clarification, that the last kusala javanacitta is succeeded by abyaakata dhamma, which in this case, is vipaakacitta. It has been very beneficial for me. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #84319 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > I would like to continue discussing Dhamma, but I am not going to > discuss personalities, please. Sorry, I got a little carried away with some of my statements. But, if you are going to be frequently talking about KS you have to expect others to talk about KS also- and sometimes that talk isn't going to be favorable. Metta, James #84320 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:46 pm Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Sukin, Alex, etc.), Thank you for your detailed response. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > Thanks for your good question: > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > >J: And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, > > > > nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad > > > > actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no > > father, > > > > no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, > > > > faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next > > > > after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is > > > > wrong view. > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html#micchaditthi > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Could you explain how this is different from the position of: there is > > no Nina, Lodewijk, Sarah, James, Buddha, etc. ? > .... > S: > 1a. "There is nothing given" etc - means there are no fruits of giving. > There is a denial of kamma and vipaka, there is no value in developing > kusala. It is a very serious wrong view. > *** > 1b. There are no people, there are only namas and rupas. James: Really, what are people if not namas and rupas (in the process of DO)? Isn't this just a semantic word play? > 2a. "no this world, no next world" - is a denial of rebirth in any form. > All is annihilated at the end of this life. Again, there is a denial of > kamma. > *** > 2b. There are no people, there are only namas and rupas. Rebirth does not > refer to rebirth of people but to rebirth of namas (cittas and cetasikas). James: Again, this is just semantics. How is it that people are really any different than namas and rupas? > ===== > 3a. "no mother, no father" - is a denial of any value or fruit of right > conduct towards parents or any harm in wrong conduct. > *** > 3b. There are no people, there are only namas and rupas. The Buddha > stressed the great value as you know in doing whatever is possible for > one's parents. Of course, again in an ultimate sense, what we take for our > parents are again namas and rupas, particular streams of accumulations. James: Do you take your parents for beings with minds and bodies? I do. How is this any different than namas and rupas? > ====== > 4a. "no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing > rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & > realized it for themselves." - is a denial of arhants and Buddhas. > *** > 4b. There are no people, there are only namas and rupas. The attainment of > arahantship refers to magga and phala cittas and definitely the Buddha > taught about such attainement. Again, in an ultimate sense, the Buddha > does not/did not exist as discussed at length, but the namas and rupas > referred to as the Buddha definitely did. James: So you believe that the Buddha did not exist? Then why do you believe in Buddhism? > ["In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to > be found", Yamaka Sutta, SN 22:85] James: What is "Tathaagata"? It means "one who has thus gone". So, someone or something that is gone cannot be identified with the mind or the body. Did the Buddha say this same sort of thing about the ordinary worldling (mother, father, etc.)? > ====== > > S: I know the "no Nina, Lodewijk, Sarah, James, Buddha, etc." area is a > very difficult one for many to accept. James: It is difficult to accept because the formulation of "there is no Nina, Lodewijk, Sarah, James, Buddha, etc." is wrong view. It doesn't matter what philosophy is behind it- that wording represents wrong view. When taken literally, as is usually done even by the KS students, it will lead to evil results. In the end, it comes back to the > present moment now. What is seen? What is heard? What is smelt? What is > tasted? What is touched? And then, what is thought about? James: I didn't ask anything about this. This subject doesn't come back to this. The fact that you make every single topic come back to this shows, to me, an ineffectual tunnel vision. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= Metta, James #84321 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > >> It is a widely held view that a person who has attained jhana would, on > >> hearing the teachings, be able to see dhammas as they truly are. But I > >> think this is a misconception. No doubt, there are instances in the > >> suttas of persons skilled in jhana who did become enlightened on > >> hearing the teachings, but these do not support this as a general > >> proposition. > >> > > > > The Buddha described those who had achieved jhana (his former teachers > > and ascetics) as "those with little dust in their eyes", so I would > > say it is a general proposition. To prove that it isn't you would > > have to provide the contrary. > > > > Interesting. Would you mind giving a reference to the sutta you have in > mind here. Thanks. > Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahma's invitation, out of compassion for beings, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As he did so, he saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world. Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses — born and growing in the water — might flourish while immersed in the water, without rising up from the water; some might stand at an even level with the water; while some might rise up from the water and stand without being smeared by the water — so too, surveying the world with the eye of an Awakened One, the Blessed One saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world. ........ "Then the thought occurred to me, 'To whom should I teach the Dhamma first? Who will quickly understand this Dhamma?' Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Alara Kalama is wise, competent, intelligent. He has long had little dust in his eyes. What if I were to teach him the Dhamma first? He will quickly understand this Dhamma.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Lord, Alara Kalama died seven days ago.' And knowledge & vision arose within me: 'Alara Kalama died seven days ago.' The thought occurred to me, 'A great loss has Alara Kalama suffered. If he had heard this Dhamma, he would have quickly understood it.' "Then the thought occurred to me, 'To whom should I teach the Dhamma first? Who will quickly understand this Dhamma?' Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Uddaka Ramaputta is wise, competent, intelligent. He has long had little dust in his eyes. What if I were to teach him the Dhamma first? He will quickly understand this Dhamma.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Lord, Uddaka Ramaputta died last night.' And knowledge & vision arose within me: 'Uddaka Ramaputta died last night.' The thought occurred to me, 'A great loss has Uddaka Ramaputta suffered. If he had heard this Dhamma, he would have quickly understood it.' James: The Buddha described his two former teachers as LONG having "little dust in their eyes" and being wise, competent, and intelligent. Now, even thought the Buddha doesn't mention jhana in this sutta, it has to be jhana which has made these former teachers the most apt to learn the Dhamma. It isn't knowledge of the Dhamma, after all- these two former teachers were Hindu who believed in atta and Brahma. It was their accomplishment of jhana which made them wise, intelligent, and most apt to learn the Dhamma. Jon, if you see a better explanation I would be interested to know. Metta, James #84322 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/23/2008 2:43:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, There is choice but no chooser. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Good! I agree! :-) --------------------------------------- Should: in order to reach the goal it is necessary, indispensable, to be aware also of cittas. Nina. Op 23-mrt-2008, om 16:54 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > We should pay attention to the third Application of Mindfulness that > includes all kinds of cittas arising now: kusala citta, akusala > citta, indeterminate citta. > > ========================== > What do you mean by "We SHOULD pay attention" (emphasis mine)? Is > there > a choice? ============================ With metta, Howard #84323 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities nilovg Hi James, Your point is taken. Nina. Op 24-mrt-2008, om 1:12 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Sorry, I got a little carried away with some of my statements. But, > if you are going to be frequently talking about KS you have to expect > others to talk about KS also- and sometimes that talk isn't going to > be favorable. #84324 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > > > Hi James > > > > >> It is a widely held view that a person who has attained jhana > would, on > > >> hearing the teachings, be able to see dhammas as they truly are. > But I > > >> think this is a misconception. No doubt, there are instances in the > > >> suttas of persons skilled in jhana who did become enlightened on > > >> hearing the teachings, but these do not support this as a general > > >> proposition. > > >> > > > > > > The Buddha described those who had achieved jhana (his former teachers > > > and ascetics) as "those with little dust in their eyes", so I would > > > say it is a general proposition. > James: The Buddha described his two former teachers as LONG having > "little dust in their eyes" and being wise, competent, and > intelligent. Now, even thought the Buddha doesn't mention jhana in > this sutta, it has to be jhana which has made these former teachers > the most apt to learn the Dhamma. It isn't knowledge of the Dhamma, > after all- these two former teachers were Hindu who believed in atta > and Brahma. It was their accomplishment of jhana which made them > wise, intelligent, and most apt to learn the Dhamma. Jon, if you see > a better explanation I would be interested to know. > Hi James, The original contention was that *all* jhana attainers were described by the Buddha as having "only a little dust in their eyes." You can't prove that by pointing to *some* jhana attainers who qualified in that way. I don't have any references, but I have heard there were several ascetic sects that rejected and opposed the Buddha's Dhamma, and I beleive there were jhana attainers amongst them. Also, I believe there were jhana attainers in the Buddha's sangha who were unable to attain any level of vipassana insight in their present lifetimes. (Again, no references.) And, of course, many disciples attained vipassana without ever having attained jhana. (But that might be a different topic altogether.) Ken H #84325 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > Hi Jon, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi James > > > > > > >> It is a widely held view that a person who has attained jhana > > would, on > > > >> hearing the teachings, be able to see dhammas as they truly > are. > > But I > > > >> think this is a misconception. No doubt, there are instances > in the > > > >> suttas of persons skilled in jhana who did become enlightened > on > > > >> hearing the teachings, but these do not support this as a > general > > > >> proposition. > > > >> > > > > > > > > The Buddha described those who had achieved jhana (his former > teachers > > > > and ascetics) as "those with little dust in their eyes", so I > would > > > > say it is a general proposition. > > > > > James: The Buddha described his two former teachers as LONG having > > "little dust in their eyes" and being wise, competent, and > > intelligent. Now, even thought the Buddha doesn't mention jhana in > > this sutta, it has to be jhana which has made these former teachers > > the most apt to learn the Dhamma. It isn't knowledge of the Dhamma, > > after all- these two former teachers were Hindu who believed in atta > > and Brahma. It was their accomplishment of jhana which made them > > wise, intelligent, and most apt to learn the Dhamma. Jon, if you > see > > a better explanation I would be interested to know. > > > > > Hi James, > > The original contention was that *all* jhana attainers were described > by the Buddha as having "only a little dust in their eyes." James: I had written that it is a 'general proposition', I didn't say "all". I try to avoid using allness statements because you can't always find an exception. For example, Devadatta attained jhana but he tried to kill the Buddha...which is about as wrong as you can go! You can't > prove that by pointing to *some* jhana attainers who qualified in > that way. James: This is just nitpicking. These examples, combined with the Buddha's numerous teachings extolling the importance of the jhanas, makes a pretty strong case. > > I don't have any references, but I have heard there were several > ascetic sects that rejected and opposed the Buddha's Dhamma, and I > beleive there were jhana attainers amongst them. Also, I believe > there were jhana attainers in the Buddha's sangha who were unable to > attain any level of vipassana insight in their present lifetimes. > (Again, no references.) James: Well, if you can't give me any references then that doesn't give me much to go on. You may or may not be right about this. (If you could prove the second one that would be some very strong support for your case.) > > And, of course, many disciples attained vipassana without ever > having attained jhana. (But that might be a different topic > altogether.) James: As the Vism. describes it, concentration at least to the level of access concentration is necessary before there is the attainment of any serious (noteworthy) vipassana. > > Ken H > Metta, James #84326 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:36 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? matheesha333 Hi Nina, >N: Jiivitindriya cetasika arises with every citta and maintains the life > of citta and the other cetasikas. It is one of the seven universals > arising with each citta. Citta cannot arise without cetasika and > cetasika cannot arise without citta. Not only jiivitindriya cetasika > arises with each citta also contact, feeling, sa~n~naa, volition, > concentration and attention (manasikaara) have to arise with each > citta. They each have their own function while assisting citta in > cognizing an object. Thank you. That was useful. I guess there is no way to directly experience jiivitindriya as we are all submerged in it all the time, contradictory as that might sound! I guess that arose due to 'old kamma' and old tanha. > The Tiika explains that one takes the wrong Path for the right Path. > We do not have to think only of cow or ox practice. Once again, that is helpful. Only right view leads to the end of bhava. All other views lead to clinging of some sort and hence bhava. with metta Matheesha #84327 From: "colette" Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:46 am Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? ksheri3 Hi James, GREAT POSITION! It's late so I can't type much but I want to watch the developement of this discussion. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: <...> > > S: > > 1a. "There is nothing given" etc - means there are no fruits of giving. > > There is a denial of kamma and vipaka, there is no value in developing > > kusala. It is a very serious wrong view. > > *** > > 1b. There are no people, there are only namas and rupas. > > James: Really, what are people if not namas and rupas (in the process > of DO)? Isn't this just a semantic word play? > > > > 2a. "no this world, no next world" - is a denial of rebirth in any form. > > All is annihilated at the end of this life. Again, there is a denial of > > kamma. > > *** > > 2b. There are no people, there are only namas and rupas. Rebirth > does not > > refer to rebirth of people but to rebirth of namas (cittas and > cetasikas). > > James: Again, this is just semantics. How is it that people are > really any different than namas and rupas? <...> #84328 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:11 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Satipatthĺnasutta” that these four Applications are the only way for reaching the right path, for the attainment of nibbĺna. The Commentary states: “The Real Eightfold Path is called the right path. Verily, this preliminary, mundane Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness made to become (grown or cultivated) is conducive to the realisation of the Supramundane Way.” While satipatthĺna is being developed, the Path is still mundane, but eventually it leads to enlightenment. At the moment of enlightenment the eightfold Path, pańńĺ and the accompanying factors, have become supramundane, lokuttara. The Buddha, in his great compassion, taught us that there is dhamma at this moment in our daily life. All the sections of the four Applications pertain to daily life and they can remind us to develop understanding of nĺma and rúpa at this moment, in the midst of our activities. We should not be neglectful because life is short and we do not know when we will have an opportunity to listen again to the true Dhamma. Acharn Sujin exhorted us to have patience and not to expect an immediate result of the development of understanding. She said: “If we know how much ignorance we have accumulated it will prevent us from trying to hasten the development of pańńĺ. The Abhidhamma helps us to understand that there are many processes of cittas arising and falling away very rapidly. When we see visible object, not only seeing arises in that process, but also many other cittas. Seeing is closely followed by the javana-cittas (impulsion) that are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When we do not apply ourselves to dĺna (generosity), síla (morality) or bhĺvanĺ (mental development), the javana-cittas are akusala cittas. The eye-door process is followed by a mind-door process with javana-cittas that are kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Countless processes of cittas with akusala javana-cittas arise, but we do not realize this. Kusala citta arises seldom and thus we can understand that it must take a long time to develop pańńĺ. Right understanding can be developed of one object at a time so that there can be firm and clear understanding of nĺma and rúpa. When insight knowledge arises there is no doubt that ‘I’ does not exist, that there are only different elements arising and falling away.” The understanding that “there is no person”, only paramattha dhammas arising and falling away, does not mean that we should not care for other people. On the contrary, when we have less clinging to the “self” kusala can become purer. We have accumulated so much selfish clinging and therefore we may easily confuse mettĺ and attachment. We may perform kind deeds in order to be liked by others. We like to have friends so that we do not feel lonely. When we develop genuine mettĺ we shall cling less to people. When kusala citta with mettĺ arises there is true friendship, and there is no need to long for kindness from others in return. ****** Nina. #84329 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 247, 248, and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 24-mrt-2008, om 0:15 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I had another thought when I was thinking about this. Does wrong view > always arise with self view? ------- N: Self view is a kind of wrong view: the twenty kinds of sakkaya di.t.thi with respect to each of the five khandhas. --------- > L: If so, I think we could say if there is no > desire to save "me" or "you" then rites and rituals need not be > classified as wrong view. We might particularly regard Buddhist rites > and rituals in this way. ------- N: They are classified as wrong view. One takes the wrong Path for the right Path. One takes wrong understanding, wrong concentration etc. for right understanding, right concentration. As to Buddhist rituals, there may be clinging without wrong view to these. When there is superstition, thus, when you think that these can induce enlightenment, there is wrong view. Or, people may have kusala citta, contemplating the Buddha's virtues when attending ceremonies. In general I would say that it is very hard to know the dhammas of lobha and of wrong view so long as nama and rupa are not distinguished from each other by the first stage of tender insight. Nina. #84330 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (19) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > > > Han: Although the books do not exactly say so, I > consider that it is a case where one condition > conditions another condition, i.e., object condition > conditions root condition. > > > Sarah: I think we can only say this indirectly. > Object condition operates by being experienced by a > citta (and cetasikas). Now, in the case of a citta > rooted in one of the six roots, hetu paccaya is > supporting this same citta, but I don't think we can > say the object condition conditions the root > condition. It is supporting the lobha-rooted citta > just by being its object. Interesting point. > > Han: Without the corresponding objects can the six > roots arise by themselves? You can say “supporting” or > “conditioning” or whatever, but the objects are > necessary for the six roots to arise, I think. .... S: Let's take lobha. It's true as you say that lobha cannot arise without an object. However, it only becomes root condition for other dhammas having arisen. Lobha and lobha paccaya are not the same although lobha is always paccaya for other dhammas. I don't think we can say arammana paccaya conditions lobha paccaya. The arammana is arammana paccaya for lobha. The lobha in turn is hetu paccaya for other dhammas. .... > > Sarah: Can I try re-phrasing this? (Well, I'm going > to anyway!!) > > "In daily life, different objects are experienced > through the five sense-doors and mind door all the > time. It depends on ayoniso-manasikaara or > yoniso-manisikaara as to whether akusala or kusala > cittas follow. In the case of yoniso-manisikaara, > there are various kinds of kusala cittas. All of these > are accompanied by sati. At such moments there is > sense-restraint, but not necessarily at the level of > satipatthaana by any means." ... > Han: Your re-phrasing is better! ... S: Thank you! On other occasions your re-phrasing is superior, I have no doubt. .... > > ------------------------------ > > > >But from the Groupings, the Object condition > belongs to Group E. Mind-and-Matter for Mind. > > > Sarah: Yes, this doesn't mean that namas can be > experienced as object by all cittas, however. > > Han: Since you do not do meditation, you may not know. > In meditation, we are asked to take note of the > wandering mind (naama) with noting mind (naama). Here, > the wandering mind is the object for the noting mind. > (Please do not ask me how can this be done? I won’t be > able to explain satisfactorily:>)) .... S: When I said namas cannot be the object for all cittas, I was simply referring to sense-door cittas which can only ever experience rupas. Also, many cittas in the mind-door process (most, actually), only ever experience pa~n~natti. These are not namas, as you know. As for the 'wandering mind', I think that when we take note of this, it is again a concept, an idea about various namas. The same may be true of the 'noting mind'. I think there's quite a lot of thinking involved, even if not in words. More topics for our discussions in Bangkok:-)?? .... > Sarah: p.s I apologise for responding to threads > that you have in mind as 'dead'. I'm sure it must be > annoying. For me, no threads here are ever finished > and I'm always slow on the up-take:-)). > > Han: No apologies needed, Sarah. I was only afraid > that I would not be able to change my stubborn > (stupid?) conviction. .... S: No problem either. We all have stubborn/stupid? convictions that need plenty of airing! This is why discussions are so helpful and sometimes so difficult for us all. Metta, Sarah ======= #84331 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:05 am Subject: The 7 Fruits! bhikkhu0 Friends: What are The 7 Fruits of the 7 Links to Awakening! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, when the Seven Links to Awakening have been developed, completed and refined, the winning of the seven fruits is indeed to be expected. What are the benefits of these seven fruits? They are, either: 1: One attains final knowledge early in this very life. Or: 2: One attains final knowledge at the moment of death. Or: Having destroyed the five lower chains and spontaneously re-arisen; 3: One attains NibbÄ?na in the first half of the life as a divine brahma. Or: 4: One attains NibbÄ?na in the second half of the life in these pure abodes. Or: 5: One attains NibbÄ?na as a Noble non-returner without effort. Or: 6: One attains NibbÄ?na as a Noble non-returner with some effort. Or: 7: One is bound upstream, surely heading towards the highest Akanittha realm. When, bhikkhus, these Seven Links to Awakening have been thoroughly developed and cultivated exactly in this way, these seven fruits & benefits may be expected.... Explanation of the Seven Links to Awakening: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Seven_Links_to_Awakening.htm Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta NikÄ?ya. Book [V:69-70] section 46: The Links. The 7 Fruits! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #84332 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (19) hantun1 Dear Sarah, > > Han: Without the corresponding objects can the six roots arise by themselves? You can say “supporting” or “conditioning” or whatever, but the objects are necessary for the six roots to arise, I think. > Sarah: Let's take lobha. It's true as you say that lobha cannot arise without an object. However, it only becomes root condition for other dhammas having arisen. Lobha and lobha paccaya are not the same although lobha is always paccaya for other dhammas. I don't think we can say arammana paccaya conditions lobha paccaya. The arammana is arammana paccaya for lobha. The lobha in turn is hetu paccaya for other dhammas. Han: I do not understand what you have written above. Perhaps, you can explain to me when we see each other in person. ------------------------- > > > Sarah: Yes, this doesn't mean that namas can be experienced as object by all cittas, however. > > Han: Since you do not do meditation, you may not know. In meditation, we are asked to take note of the wandering mind (naama) with noting mind (naama). Here, the wandering mind is the object for the noting mind. (Please do not ask me how can this be done? I won’t be able to explain satisfactorily: >)) > Sarah: When I said namas cannot be the object for all cittas, I was simply referring to sense-door cittas which can only ever experience rupas. Also, many cittas in the mind-door process (most, actually), only ever experience pa~n~natti. These are not namas, as you know. As for the 'wandering mind', I think that when we take note of this, it is again a concept, an idea about various namas. The same may be true of the 'noting mind'. I think there's quite a lot of thinking involved, even if not in words. Han: I don’t know, Sarah, honestly. Again, you may explain to me again when we meet. ------------------------------ > Sarah: More topics for our discussions in Bangkok:-)?? Han: You are the leader! Respectfully, Han #84333 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? walterhorn Hi, Sarah. I'm so sorry not to have seen your response until now. I think it is absolutely on point. I think you're right that our understanding of such terms as "freedom," "person," "death," "guilt," etc. can, in a sense, evolve as we study those matters. And it may be quite difficult to translate a term as we formerly understood it into what can almost be thought of as our new language. I think the effort is useful, even important, though. As I indicated, if one asks "Should we feel guilty if we wander off the path?" or "Will I continue after my physical death?" it's not so helpful to be told, "Well, Buddhists have a different concept of guilt and person" Because, well, I want to know whether we should feel what I understand by "guilty" and am unlikely to be too interested in whether we should feel (let's call it) 'shmilty'! To take a different example, the way I look at the free will/determinism question myself is to follow such philosophers as J.S. Mill in denying that they're incompatible. I'm inclined to say that we are free when we do things "because we want to" rather than being compelled by forces "outside us." Thus, while there is always compulsion from prior physical/mental events, my sitting here because I want to is importantly different from my sitting here because I've been tied to my chair or been hypnotized to do so. We can't ever get outside the wheel of causes, I don't think, but, in my view, we can be free anyways. These are based on philosophical considerations, not revelations of any kind, of course, and I could certainly be wrong. So if the Buddhist conception of freedom is the same or similar to mine, I'd like to know how. But I don't know what to do with information to the effect that the Buddhist conception of freedom is just different, so I appreciate your sympathy with my befuddlement and your post, generally. All best, Walto #84334 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear TG, For when you return (thanks for the reply): TG: "This is what Nyanatiloka says regarding 'yoniso manasikaara' -- 'In a more general sense, the terms appears frequently in the Suttas as yoniso-manasikara, 'wise (or reasoned, methodical) attention' or 'wise reflection'. It is said, in M.2, to counteract the cankers ) asava, q.v.); it is a condition for the arising of Right View (s. M. 43), of Stream-entry (s. sotapattiyanga); and for the Factors of Enlightenment (s. S. XLVI, 2, 49, 51).' Let's see...wise attention, wise reflection, counter-acting asavas, a condition for Stream-entry, Right View, and the Factors of Enlightenment ... according to Nyanatiloka. Being that its was in the Sutta in which Sariputta was teaching that I quoted, and you can confirm this perhaps, it would seem it is also a condition for Once-returner, Non-returner, and Arahatship. And what was your point regarding that term, the Sutta, and the way I mis-understood it?" Scott: In order to explain how I think we differ, I'll point to the thesis you present, and demonstrate how I (mis?)understand it. I'll take a recent definitional statement: TG: "If a 'being' is a conditionally relative 'system' of interacting and altering elements held together and propagated by craving and false views, then I would say yes, there are beings..." Scott: Imbedded here is a version of the theory of conditionality you posit, as far as I can tell; 'conditional relativity' and 'interacting system' being central. As I read it, what is presented in the above is an alternative to the Abhidhamma description of the 'structure' and 'dynamics' of reality. It is this vision you present, and what I see as its basis, that causes the misunderstanding. I'll state my thesis as if I understand you, knowing I likely don't, and when you return you can amend my take on it. I read you to consider elements to have the capacity to 'alter' over time. This is, I think, in opposition to the Abhidhamma description of momentaneity - the sequential arising, presence, and falling away of dhammas, with the accompanying 'dynamics' of conditionality as set out in Pa.t.thaana. This leads you to theorizing about states of mind which start out one way and shift over time, morphing into something other than when they started. In other words, contrary to a view which has dhammas arising and falling away, and serving in various ways as condition in sequence but being completely distinct each time, you seem to see a continuous, whole, and transforming process. This doesn't accord with the arising and falling away of 'seamlessly discrete' dhammas as per the Abhidhamma method. When it comes to the sutta we are discussing, you don't seem to consider yoniso manasikaara to be a dhamma of momentary appearance. You seem to rely heavily on the meaning of the term, that is the English, to define it. This leads you to think about 'wise reflection' as an amorphous, ongoing state of thought which is shifting over time. When you think of 'condition' in this case, you seem to think of seamless dynamics, perhaps akin to those of fluid. From the momentary point of view, manasikaara arises with each and every citta, while yoniso manasikaara is less common. That it serves as condition for 'Right View' (pa~n~naa) is true, but perhaps not as you think. The path, according to my understanding, arises and takes Nibbaana as object. And this series of moments is eradicative, according to my understanding and depending of the level (stream entry, once-return, etc.). It is also of the moment, consisting of a series of moments, but momentary nonetheless. So, while the statement that yoniso manasikaara serves as condition for the arising of the path is true, the citta which it accompanied and coloured with its characteristic would have already fallen away; it would not have become transformed into the coherent, persisting cognitive state from an earlier and related state as you seem to suggest. Apologies in advance for any incoherence in the above - its all mine. Sincerely, Scott. #84335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nilovg Dear Alex, there are several translations and it is good to compare the Pali. Op 23-mrt-2008, om 22:47 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Better than a hundred years lived without virtue, uncentered, is one > day lived by a virtuous person absorbed in jhana.And better than a > hundred years lived undiscerning, uncentered,is one day lived by a > discerning person absorbed in jhana. - Dhp VIII Sahassavagga > Thousands 110-115 -------- N: Verse 110: Better than a hundred years in the life of an immoral person who has no control over his senses, is a day in the life of a virtuous person who cultivates Tranquillity and Insight Development Practice. Vo ca vassasatam jive dussilo asamahito ekaham jivitam seyyo silavantassa jhayino. -------- This is about someone who has siila , and jhayino ; this is from jhayaati: sometimes translated as contemplate, it is not necessarily absorbed in jhaana. --------- Verse 111: Better than a hundred years in the life of an ignorant person, who has no control over his senses, is a day in the life of a wise man who cultivates Tranquillity and Insight Development Practice. Yo ca vassasatam jive duppanno asamahito ekaham jivitam seyyo pannavantassa jhayino. ---------- N: pa~n~navantassa: who has pa~n`naa is stressed here. Verse 112: Better than a hundred years in the life of a person who is idle and inactive, is a day in the life of one who makes a zealous and strenuous effort (in Tranquillity and Insight Development Practice). Dhammapada Verse 112 Sappadasatthera Vatthu Yo ca vassasatam jive kusito1 hinaviriyo ekaham jivitam seyyo viriyamarabhato dalham. ------- N: Here is stresses viriya and arambha: energy, effort, not being idle. ------- Dhammapada Verse 113 Verse 113: Better than a hundred years in the life of a person who does not perceive the arising and the dissolving of the five aggregates (khandhas), is a day in the life of one who perceives the arising and dissolving of the five aggregates. Yo ca vassasatam jive apassam udayabbayam1 ekaham jivitam seyyo passato udayabbayam. -------- N: This is the first stage of mahaavipassanaa. Nina. #84336 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana & panna - II truth_aerator Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > -------- > This is about someone who has siila , and jhayino ; this is from > jhayaati: sometimes translated as contemplate, it is not necessarily > absorbed in jhaana. > --------- Considering the centrality of Jhana (especially for the higher paths), it is not impossible that that referse to Jhana. Look, Jhana was WHAT THE BUDDHA HAS RECOMENDED! And lets not forget that Samadhi, rapture, serenity, equinimity are included in 7 factors of Awakening and in Jhana... You get the idea. > > Dhammapada Verse 113 > > Verse 113: Better than a hundred years in the life of a person who > does not perceive the arising and the dissolving of the five > aggregates (khandhas), is a day in the life of one who perceives the > arising and dissolving of the five aggregates. > > Yo ca vassasatam jive > apassam udayabbayam1 > ekaham jivitam seyyo > passato udayabbayam. > -------- > N: This is the first stage of mahaavipassanaa. > Nina. Or insight gained FROM JHANA: "Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction (* 1). With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world.. " http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/064-maha-malunkhyaputta-e1.htm Wishing all the best, Alex #84337 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:12 pm Subject: Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau Hi all, Here are a few more paragraphs from Chapter XX. (Notice the new subheading.) I enjoyed typing them out, trying to predict how each sentence would end, sometimes getting it right and sometimes wrong. See how you go: "[Comprehension by groups - Application of Text] "13. Here is the application of the directions dealing with the aggregates: 'Any materiality whatever (i-iii) whether past, future or present (iv-v) internal or external (vi-vii) gross or subtle (viii- ix) inferior or superior (x-xi) far or near - he defines all materiality as impermanent: this is one kind of comprehension. He defines it as not self: this is one kind of comprehension (see para.6). At this point this bhikkhu [takes] all materiality, which is defined without specifying as 'any materiality whatever', and having delimited it in the eleven instances, namely, with the 'past' triad and with the four dyads beginning with the 'internal' dyad, he defines all materiality as impermanent', he comprehends that it is impermanent. How? In the way stated next. For it is said 'Materiality, whether past, future or present is impermanent in the sense of destruction'. 14. Accordingly he comprehends the materiality that is past as 'impermanent in the sense of destruction' because it was destroyed in the past and did not reach this becoming: and he comprehends the materiality that is future as 'impermanent in the sense of destruction' since it will be produced in the next becoming, will be destroyed there too, and will not pass on to a further becoming: and he comprehends the materiality that is present as 'impermanent in the sense of destruction' since it is destroyed here and does not pass beyond. And he comprehends the materiality that is internal as 'impermanent in the sense of destruction' since it is destroyed as internal and does not pass on to the external state. And he comprehends the materiality that is external. . . gross . . . subtle . . . inferior . . .superior . . . far . . . And he comprehends the materiality that is near as 'impermanent in the sense of destruction' since it is destroyed there and does not pass on to the far state. And all this is impermanent in the sense of destruction. Accordingly, there is 'one kind of comprehension' in this way but it is effected in eleven ways." The next paragraph (as promised by Larry) will deal with "painful in the sense of terror." Don't miss it! Ken H #84338 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana & panna - II scottduncan2 Dear Alex and Nina, Regarding: "Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction (* 1). With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world.. " Here's the Paa.li: MN 64 Mahaamaalu"nkyasutta.m "...idhaananda bhikkhu upadhivivekaa akusalaana.m dhammaana.m pahaanaa sabbaso kaayadu.t.thullaana.m pa.tipassaddhiyaa vivicceva kaamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakka.m savicaara.m vivekaja.m piitisukha.m pa.thama.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. So yadeva tattha hoti ruupagata.m vedanaagata.m sa~n~naagata.m sa"nkhaaragata.m vi~n~naa.nagata.m. Te dhamme aniccato dukkhato rogato ga.n.dato sallato aghato aabaadhato parato palokato su~n~nato anattato samanupassati, so tehi dhammehi citta.m pa.tivaapeti. So tehi dhammehi citta.m pa.tivaapetvaa amataaya dhaatuyaa citta.m upasa.mharati. Eta.m santa.m eta.m pa.niita.m yadida.m sabbasa"nkhaarasamatho sabbuupadhipa.tinissaggo ta.nhakkhayo viraago nirodho nibbaananti. So tattha.t.thito aasavaana.m khaya.m paapu.naati, no ce aasavaana.m khaya.m paapu.naati. Teneva dhammaraagena taaya dhammanandiyaa pa~ncanna.m orambhaagiyaana.m sa~n~nojanaana.m parikkhayaa opapaatiko hoti tattha parinibbaayii anaavattidhammo tasmaa lokaa ayampi kho aananda maggo aya.m pa.tipadaa pa~ncanna.m orambhaagiyaana.m sa~n~nojanaana.m pahaanaaya." Scott: The phrase, which is rendered above as: "...he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self..." Is given by ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi as: "...Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self." Note 655: "This passage shows the development of insight (vipassanaa) upon a basis of serenity (samatha), using jhaana on which the practise of insight is based as the object of insight contemplation..." Sincerely, Scott. #84339 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:57 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana & panna - II scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "Or insight gained FROM JHANA..." Scott: This is incorrect, Alex. The factors inherent in jhaana were used as the *basis* for insight, not 'insight gained from jhaana'. Any dhamma can be object of pa~n~na. Sincerely, Scott. #84340 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Ken, Very good. "Impermanence in the sense of destruction" is one of several ways of understanding impermanence. We will investigate this very very thoroughly. These fingers and this keyboard are impermanent in the sense of destruction! This body, this breath, this computer, this room and everything in it. Impermanent in the sense of destruction. The more we contemplate this, the more it sinks in and eventually severs attachment. Larry #84341 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:51 am Subject: The 7 Links to Enlightenment! bhikkhu0 Friends: Freeing from Sense-Addiction are the Links to Awakening! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, I do not see even one other single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to the elimination of the things that bind, so effectively & quickly as these: The Seven Links to Awakening! What seven? 1: The Awareness Link to Awakening. 2: The Investigation Link to Awakening. 3: The Energy Link to Awakening. 4: The Joy Link to Awakening. 5: The Tranquillity to Awakening. 6: The Concentration Link to Awakening. 7: The Equanimity Link to Awakening. How, Bhikkhus, are Seven Links to Awakening developed and refined so that they lead to the giving up & letting go of those things that bind? Here, when a Bhikkhu develops these seven links to awakening, joined with & dependent upon seclusion, disillusion, and ceasing, culminating in release, then these seven links to awakening, are refined & matured in a way, so that they lead to the abandoning of the things that bind, grip, addict and obsess beings! And what, Bhikkhus, are the things that bind, grip, addict and obsess all beings? The eye, ear, nose, mouth, body, and mind are things that bind, grip, addict & obsess beings! Form, sound, smell, taste, touch, & thought are things that bind, grip, addict & obsess beings! Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, and thinking bind, grip, addict and obsess beings! These are called the things that bind, ensnares, entrap, enslaves, enchain & consume beings... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 88-9] section 46: The Links. 29: One Thing... The 7 Links to Awakening! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #84342 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Perfections - Connie, Sarah, Nina sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- han tun wrote: > I have presented three chapters: > > 3. The Perfection of Renunciation > 6. The Perfection of Patience > 10. The Perfection of Equanimity. ... S: You did a great job too, especially adding some comments along the way. .... > > Connie had presented three other chapters. > There are four chapters left. > > I wish to take them up, but I would rather concentrate > on the Patthaana series. > I wonder who would be willing to present the remaining > chapters. .... S: It would be nice to continue. Perhaps someone else completely like Howard or James or Sukin might be interested. If not, perhaps we can encourage Connie to continue again..... I'll leave the serarch to you to 'supervise' and 'lead'!! Metta, Sarah p.s Our flight is at mid-night. ======= #84343 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana & panna - II upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Alex) - In a message dated 3/24/2008 9:58:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "Or insight gained FROM JHANA..." Scott: This is incorrect, Alex. The factors inherent in jhaana were used as the *basis* for insight, not 'insight gained from jhaana'. Any dhamma can be object of pa~n~na. Sincerely, Scott. ================================= I have two comments: One is that in the phrase 'insight gained from jhana,' the 'from' may mean "conditioned by" or "resulting from," or, as you say, Scott, serving as "basis for insight." My other comment is that there is considerable overlap between jhana factors and enlightenment factors, and there are a number of suttas, including the Anupada Sutta that describe the mind, having been made a fit tool by the jhanas, then turning to take the features of a jhana, themselves, as objects of insight, and repeatedly seeing the inadequacy of one jhana, then, by relinquishment, moving on to a higher jhana. This is a process of a mind made fit and malleable repeatedly being engaged in the triadic sequence of examinination, disenchantment, and relinquishment. So, in these senses, it seems fitting to me to speak of "insight gained from jhana" without any sense of jhana as sole provider of insight. With metta, Howard #84344 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Perfections - Connie, Sarah, Nina hantun1 Dear Sarah and all, I am not competent to ‘supervise’ and lead.’ My health is not good, Sarah. I had relapse of urinary tract infection and had to take medicine for ten days. The medicine was strong which made me weak. On top of that I have gout. First it was in the right ankle-joint. Now, it is in right elbow-joint. It is very painful and difficult for me to type. This year is very bad for me health-wise. I think the ‘time’ is near! Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > S: It would be nice to continue. Perhaps someone > else completely like > Howard or James or Sukin might be interested. If > not, perhaps we can > encourage Connie to continue again..... > > I'll leave the serarch to you to 'supervise' and > 'lead'!! > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Our flight is at mid-night. > > ======= > #84345 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:45 am Subject: Adverting consciousness vs manasikara which adverts philofillet Hi NIna and all I'm confused by reading in CMA "manasikara (attention) is the mental factor responsible for the mind's advertence to the object, by virtue of which the object is made present to consciousness." But then in the next chapter "a citta arises turning to the obejct, either at one of the five physical sense doors or at the mind door. This function of turning to the object is termed adverting." I really can't wrap my brain around this. In the latter case (adverting consciousness) the object has impinged at one of the sense doors, and bhavanga has vibrated, and been arrested, and then this adverting citta arises. In the former case, is it that adverting consciousness is a citta that has manasikara as one of its universal cetasikas? Thanks, whenever you have time, Nina or anyone who can make sense of my question. Metta, Phil #84346 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:02 am Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana & panna - II truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "Or insight gained FROM JHANA..." > > Scott: This is incorrect, Alex. The factors inherent in jhaana were > used as the *basis* for insight, not 'insight gained from jhaana'. > Any dhamma can be object of pa~n~na. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > We are arguing too much about semantics here. The fact is that Jhana is required as one of the causes for strong Insight capable leading all the way to Arahatship. It IS part of Noble 8, 8fold path. Nothing to say about the merit (which is important) that is gained from Bhavana. Wishing all the best, Alex #84347 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Adverting consciousness vs manasikara which adverts nilovg Dear Phil, Op 25-mrt-2008, om 14:45 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I'm confused by reading in CMA "manasikara (attention) is the > mental factor responsible for the mind's advertence to the object, > by virtue of which the object is made present to consciousness." > > But then in the next chapter "a citta arises turning to the > obejct, either at one of the five physical sense doors or at the > mind door. This function of turning to the object is termed > adverting." > > I really can't wrap my brain around this. In the latter case > (adverting consciousness) the object has impinged at one of the > sense doors, and bhavanga has vibrated, and been arrested, and then > this adverting citta arises. In the former case, is it that > adverting consciousness is a citta that has manasikara as one of its > universal cetasikas? -------- There are three kinds of manasikaara: one is cetasika, two are cittas. One citta that is manasikaara is the pancadvaaravajjanacitta, the five sense-door adverting consciousness. This is called the controller of the sense-door process, viithipa.tipaadaka. It is the first citta in a process, after the bhavangacittas which do not arise in a process and do not experience an object through a doorway. Moreover, both in the sense-door process and in the mind-door process there is a citta just before the javanacittas that is kiriyacitta, inoperative citta, and which precedes the javanacittas. It is called manasikaara, the 'controller of the javanacittas', javanapa.tipaadaka. This citta is the mind-door adverting-consciousness, and in a sense- door process it is the same type of citta, but it is called votthapana citta, determining citta. As to the cetasika manasikaara, attention, this arises with each citta and it assists citta and cetasikas in experiencing the object. It is called controller of the object. Is there anything not clear? Keep up you good study! Nina. #84348 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Perfections - Connie, Sarah, Nina nilovg Dear Han, I sympathize and hope you will be better soon. I found that your mind was not sick (Nakulapitar) and it struck me that never before have you posted so much, with many beneficial advices and personal additions. The Dhamma will be your medicine, I am sure. But what if you take more time off in between postings of a series? That may help. You are an excellent moderator of your study corners, encouraging others to react. I think also by your kind attitude and always reacting to posts. Nina. Op 25-mrt-2008, om 13:09 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I am not competent to ‘supervise’ and lead.’ > My health is not good, Sarah. > I had relapse of urinary tract infection and had to > take medicine for ten days. The medicine was strong > which made me weak. > On top of that I have gout. First it was in the right > ankle-joint. Now, it is in right elbow-joint. It is > very painful and difficult for me to type. > This year is very bad for me health-wise. > I think the ‘time’ is near! #84349 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Hi Larry (and KenH), Op 25-mrt-2008, om 4:32 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Very good. "Impermanence in the sense of destruction" is one of > several > ways of understanding impermanence. We will investigate this very very > thoroughly. These fingers and this keyboard are impermanent in the > sense > of destruction! This body, this breath, this computer, this room and > everything in it. Impermanent in the sense of destruction. The more we > contemplate this, the more it sinks in and eventually severs > attachment. -------- N: We have to know which objects are impermanent, and when returning to para 9-11, it is 'the all', namely all namas and rupas, thus, paramattha dhammas. This is the third stage of insight, after the first and second stages. The object of insight is not a table or my fingers. We may well think that these are susceptible to destruction, but this is thinking, not direct understanding of nama and rupa. Thinking cannot sever any attachment. Nina. #84350 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:51 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn Sujin and all the friends I met in the Foundation building were very earnest in listening, studying and explaining the Dhamma, and this earnestness permeated the development of pańńĺ, mettĺ and all other good qualities in their daily lives. The sessions in the Foundation were characterized by a friendly, informal atmosphere. The podium established in the main hall was not used and we were all sitting close to each other, just like in a family circle. People were interested in what I was doing in the Netherlands. I told them about the Internet, and my Visuddhimagga and Pali study. Acharn Sujin was assisted by others who encouraged me all the time to continue asking personal questions on the development of satipatthĺna. Acharn Sujin asked me whether I take kusala and akusala for self, and I answered that I do. She said; “When we have no understanding of realities, it is always ‘I’. ‘I would like to have more kusala, how can I be better’. Nobody can prevent thinking in this way, but one should understand that such moments are not self. Knowing in which way understanding is developed is most important.” At the Foundation there are always people caring for others. On weekends when most of the sessions take place, kind people bring food for everybody. Acharn Sujin and her sister Khun Jid discussed at length the luncheon menu in the restaurant where they had invited us. This seems a trivial matter, but it demonstrates their loving care and kind intention to make things as agreeable and pleasant as possible for all of us. They show us how satipaěěhĺna and all kinds of kusala can be developed in daily life in a natural way. Acharn Sujin never tires of performing kusala, and, in particular, the explanation of the Dhamma. She said that feeling tired shows clinging to “self”. During my last day in Bangkok she encouraged me, saying: “When you perform more kusala your body will become stronger.” A shoot of the Bodhitree was planted in the grounds of the Foundation. These shoots collected in Bodhgaya usually do not grow, but this one thrives very well and is now a beautiful tree. The well kept surroundings of the building are very conducive to personal conversations on Dhamma and contemplation on the words of the Buddha. Acharn Sujin reminded us time and again to have patience, courage and perseverance in the development of right understanding of realities. Her words, “Is there any understanding at this moment” still resound in my thoughts. She encouraged us, saying, “Begin again, begin again”. Sati can begin to be aware of whatever appears through one of the six doorways, even though the truth is not yet directly realized. To the extent understanding grows our confidence in the Triple Gem becomes stronger. We can have confidence in the Path we have to continue developing with courage and perseverance. Mindfulness of realities is the highest respect we can pay to the Buddha. I am most grateful to Acharn Sujin and all my friends for the reminders of satipatthĺna and for their good example of practising the Dhamma in daily life. ***** Bangkok, February 2004. #84351 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "The object of insight is not a table or my fingers." Larry: This table and these fingers are groups of rupas that cannot be indicated any other way. Surely they are included in "any materiality whatever". What materiality do you comprehend as impermanent in the sense of destruction? Larry #84352 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Perfections - Connie, Sarah, Nina hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind words and very good advice. Yes, Nina, the Dhamma is my medicine, and my companion. But I will take your advice and take some rest in between the postings of Patthaana series. With all your cetanaa and best wishes, I am sure I will get better soon. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > I sympathize and hope you will be better soon. #84353 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:21 pm Subject: Re: Adverting consciousness vs manasikara which adverts philofillet Hi NIna Thanks > As to the cetasika manasikaara, attention, this arises with each > citta and it assists citta and cetasikas in experiencing the object. > It is called controller of the object. So even the two kinds of adverting consciousness have a cetasika which adverts (as the CMA puts it, or "assists in experiencing" as you put it?) Thanks. I know this is not so immediately important but I am interested in working out details these days. Perhaps it is a mental excercise as much as anything.... Metta, Phil #84354 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Adverting consciousness vs manasikara which adverts hantun1 Dear Nina (and Phil), I learn a lot from Nina’s explanation about the three manasikaara. I also refer back to Nina’s explanation about mind-door process: -------------------- N: I shall give the list of the subsequent mind-door process: After a sense object has been experienced through a sense-door it is experienced through the mind-door, and then that object has just fallen away. Before the mind-door process begins there are bhavanga-cittas and the last two of these are specifically designated by a name. There are the following cittas: bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) bhavangupaccheda (which is in this case the mind-door through which the cittas of the mind-door process will experience the object) mind-door-adverting-consciousness (mano-dvĺrĺvajjana-citta) which is kiriyacitta 7 javana-cittas 2 tadĺrammaůa-cittas (which may or may not arise). After the mind-door process has been completed there are bhavanga-cittas again. This is a process running its full course. But also the mind-door process can be broken off. -------------------- Han: Now, I know that mind-door-adverting-consciousness (mano-dvĺrĺvajjana-citta) which is kiriyacitta, is the manasikaara called the 'controller of the javanacittas', javanapa.tipaadaka. I thank very much Phil for asking this question, and Nina for explaining it. Respectfully, Han #84355 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:28 pm Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? buddhatrue Hi Colette (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi James, > > GREAT POSITION! > > It's late so I can't type much but I want to watch the developement > of this discussion. > Thanks for your vote of confidence. I am hesitant to equate "human" with "nama and rupa" when speaking in ontological terms. However, when conventional terms are mixed with ontological terms, as Sarah is doing in her analysis of this sutta, then all bets are off. ;-)) When discussing reality it is difficult to reach an agreement because different people define the terms differently. For example, let's take something simple like an apple. The Buddha taught in the suttas that when we view (see) an apple, the mind's propensity for mental proliferations turns that view of apple into something that it is not. That the "apple" is covered with layers of memories, conceptualizations, and desires. That, in fact, we don't really see the apple at all. So, the Buddha taught, that in the seen there should only be the seen; in the heard only the heard; in the felt only the felt, etc. Yogacara states that when we see the apple there is the illusion of subject and object: There is "I" viewing "that". Instead of viewing the world as it really is: a unity, or co-arising, of subject and object, we view the world in duality or separateness of subject and object. I can understand and accept both of these concepts of reality; however, I don't understand the Abhidhamma concept. To say that rupa exists, for example, but an apple doesn't- is a contradiction. What is an apple if not rupa? Unless, of course, what they are saying is that what we view as an apple is filtered through delusion. But, how is it filtered through delusion? It seems as if the Abhidhamma is proposing a type of philosophical idealism which states that the world doesn't exist, people don't exist, nothing exists- except, again, that vague and undefined "nama and rupa"! What is that? What does that mean? The more I try to pin down an answer the more elusive it seems. Anyway, thanks for giving me the chance to think out loud on this subject. Metta, James #84356 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana & panna - II scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply: H: "I have two comments: One is that in the phrase 'insight gained from jhana,' the 'from' may mean 'conditioned by' or 'resulting from,' or, as you say, Scott, serving as 'basis for insight.' Scott: I'll have to disagree. Proficiency in jhaana - that is in attaining any of the levels of jhaana - and the development of pa~n~naa are unrelated. H: "My other comment is that there is considerable overlap between jhana factors and enlightenment factors, and there are a number of suttas, including the Anupada Sutta that describe the mind, having been made a fit tool by the jhanas, then turning to take the features of a jhana, themselves, as objects of insight, and repeatedly seeing the inadequacy of one jhana, then, by relinquishment, moving on to a higher jhana. This is a process of a mind made fit and malleable repeatedly being engaged in the triadic sequence of examinination, disenchantment, and relinquishment. So, in these senses, it seems fitting to me to speak of 'insight gained from jhana' without any sense of jhana as sole provider of insight." Scott: To me, the above is imprecise. 'Jhaana factors' are all cetasikas and, as such, 'colour' citta when they arise conascent with citta. If by mind the sutta refers to 'citta' then this amounts to saying that an accompanying cetasika makes citta 'fit' according to its characteristic. A 'fit and malleable' mind is a description, first and foremost, of one citta with accompanying cetasikas. Since none of the factors (cetasikas) in any of the eight levels of jhaana is pa~n~naa, then there is no way that jhaana provides insight of any kind, 'sole' or otherwise. None of its constituents have 'insight' as characteristic. If 'mind' is considered as something other than momentary citta and accompanying cetasikas, then there is room to think about ongoing 'states of mind', which is a more or less modern, psychologistic way of thinking. Sincerely, Scott. #84357 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:57 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana & panna - II scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "We are arguing too much about semantics here..." Scott: Are we? A: "...The fact is that Jhana is required as one of the causes for strong Insight capable leading all the way to Arahatship. It IS part of Noble 8, 8fold path. Nothing to say about the merit (which is important) that is gained from Bhavana." Scott: This is confusing. I'll leave off the part about 'merit that is gained from Bhavana' since this makes no sense to me. Please show me where in the texts it is said that 'jhaana is required as one of the causes for strong Insight'. And by jhaana, by the way, I'm making the assumption that you are referring to any of the eight states of absorption - the ruupa-jjhaanas and the aruupa-jjhaanas - and not to the cetasika citass'ekaggataa. Sincerely, Scott. #84358 From: "connie" Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:19 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (115) nichiconn Dear Friends, This is the first installment of Chapter 1 - The Perfection of Generosity, from "The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom; www.zolag.co.uk The perfection of generosity is mentioned first among the ten perfections. As we read in the definition of daana, given by the Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct": "Giving (daana) has the characteristic of relinquishing; its function is to dispel greed for things that can be given away; its manifestation is non-attachment, or the achievement of prosperity and a favourable state of existence; an object that can be relinquished is its proximate cause." Most people know that generosity is the giving away of things for the benefit and happiness of others. Laypeople cannot give away all their possessions because they still cling to sense objects, but when there is an opportunity for generosity they should practise it. If one is unable to give away something one possesses, be it small or great, for the benefit of others, it will be so much harder to give up the clinging and attachment to the naama dhammas and ruupa dhammas one takes for self, beings and persons. Therefore, it is necessary to give away things for the benefit and happiness of others as much as one is able to, in order to eliminate defilements, including attachment to possessions as well as clinging to naama dhammas and ruupa dhammas one takes for beings, people and self. Thus, in our daily life we should not neglect the development of the perfection of generosity. We should know whether our generosity is a perfection or not. No matter how much we give away, generosity is not a perfection if we do not see the need to eradicate defilements. People who have understanding of the Dhamma and practise generosity should consider whether their generosity is a perfection. If someone gives away things without expecting a reward, not even rebirth in a heavenly plane, then his generosity can be a perfection. However, if someone wants to receive a reward, when he wishes for rebirth as a millionaire, or for rebirth in different heavenly planes, or if he wants to receive gain, honour and praise, then his life is still bound up with all kinds of expectations, and his goal is not the eradication of defilements. If we reflect about this we can know whether our giving at a specific moment is a perfection or not. [end extract] c: Just by way of adding a footnote to the first paragraph, a quote from CMA, p.29: << To elucidate the nature of any ultimate reality, the Pali commentators propose four defining devices by means of which it can be delimited. These four devices are: (1) it's characteristic (lakkha.na), ie the salient quality of the phenomenon; (2) its function (rasa), its performance of a concrete task (kicca) or achievement of a goal (sampatti); (3) its manifestation (paccupa.t.thaana), the way it presents itself within experience; and (4) its proximate cause (pada.t.thaana), the principal condition upon which it depends. >> peace, connie ps ... to be continued #84359 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Adverting consciousness vs manasikara which adverts nilovg Hi Phil, Op 26-mrt-2008, om 1:21 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > So even the two kinds of adverting consciousness have a cetasika > which adverts (as the CMA puts it, or "assists in experiencing" as you > put it?) ------ N: Yes, it is never lacking, even now! -------- > > N: Thanks. I know this is not so immediately important but I am > interested in working out details these days. Perhaps it is a mental > excercise as much as anything.... -------- N: Shall we say: mental development? The study of the Dhamma is also a kind of mental development, bhaavanaa. Studying the kinds of manasikaara helps us to see that there is no one who does anything. They are all dhammas. Studying the processes clarifies that these processes run extremely fast. There simply is no time to decide this or that. But the cittas do their work, and very fast. Nina. #84360 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:35 pm Subject: About Upatissa * rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! Sakyamuni Sambuddha Vihara ~ Dhamma Message ~ <...> Taken from AccessToInsight.org1 Translated from Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu SUMMARY: Ven. Sariputta3 who is an Arahant (a Worthy One) addresses the monks and says that on reflection he finds nothing in this world whose (undesirable) change (for the worst) would causes sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress and despair to arise in him. Then Ven. Ananda4 asks him if sorrow, etc would arise in him if a (undesirable) change (for the worst) occurred in their teacher, the Lord Buddha. Ven. Sariputta replies that a change (passing away of) in the Lord Buddha would not cause sorrow, etc to arise in him, but he would think that a great and mighty being of great prowess has passed away and that if the Lord Buddha remained for a long time, it would benefit and be for the welfare and happiness of many beings, both human and divine. Then Ven. Ananda says that it is because Ven. Sariputta has long stopped "I-making" and "mine-making" (comm. thinking that things are "me," "mine," "part of me," which is contradictory to reality5) and stopped conceiting that he would feel no sorrow, etc over a change (for the worst) in his teacher the Lord Buddha. COMMENTARY: This sutta further demonstrates that it is not possible for Arahants (Worthy Ones) to commit suicide to escape the pain of serious illness for example. See more on this in Arahants and Suicide here http://vihara.org.au/go?to=arahsuic ABOUT UPATISSA (SARIPUTTA) Samyutta Nikâya 2.19 - Upatissa Sutta2 At Savatthi. There Ven. Sariputta addressed the monks: "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Sariputta said, "Friends, just now as I was withdrawn in seclusion, this train of thought arose to my awareness: 'Is there anything in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'There is nothing in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair.'" When this was said, Ven. Ananda said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher would there arise within you no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair?" "Even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, my friend, there would arise within me no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Still, I would have this thought: 'What a great being, of great might, of great prowess, has disappeared! For if the Blessed One were to remain for a long time, that would be for the benefit of many people, for the happiness of many people, out of sympathy for the world; for the welfare, benefit, & happiness of human & divine beings.'" "Surely," [said Ven. Ananda,] "it's because Ven. Sariputta's I-making & mine-making and obsessions with conceit have long been well uprooted that even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, there would arise within him no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair." Notes 1. More suttas from AcessToInsight.org can be found here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html 2. This sutta can be found in full here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn21/sn21.002.than.html 3. See Life of Sariputta here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel090.html 4. See Ananda, The Guardian of the Dhamma here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel273.html <....> #84361 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:34 am Subject: Metta, Lovingkindness in Buddhism, Ch 1, no 1. nilovg This is Acharn Sujin's book on Metta that I translated from Thai into English. Chapter 1. Conditions and impediments Mettĺ, loving-kindness, can be cultivated when we know its characteristic. When there is true mettĺ other people are considered as friends: there is a feeling of closeness and sympathy, we have tender care for them and we want to do everything for their benefit and happiness. At such moments the citta is gentle, there is no conceit, mĺna, which is the condition for asserting oneself, for showing one’s own importance and for disparaging others. If there is the earnest wish to develop mettĺ, we want to eliminate akusala dhammas, also those which we usually do not notice. We do not realize the extent of our conceit, jealousy, stinginess, aversion and other defilements. When we develop mettĺ we will begin to notice many kinds of defilements, and as mettĺ is accumulated more there will be less opportunity for the arising of unwholesomeness. Conceit is a defilement which is an impediment to mettĺ. When there is mettĺ we think of the wellbeing of someone else, whereas when there is conceit we find ourselves important. If we wish to eliminate conceit and to develop mettĺ we must know the characteristic of conceit. We read in the Atthasĺliní (Expositor, Book II, Part II, Chapter 2, 372) about conceit: “Conceit”, “overweening” and “conceitedness” signify mode and state. “Loftiness” is in the sense of rising upwards or of springing over others. “Haughtiness”, i.e. in whom conceit arises, him it lifts up, keeps upraised. “Flaunting a flag” is in the sense of swelling above others. “Assumption” means uplifting; conceit favours the mind all round. Of many flags the flag which rises above others is called a banner. So conceit arising repeatedly in the sense of excelling with reference to subsequent conceits is like a banner. That mind which desires the banner is said to be desirous of the banner (i.e., self- advertisement). Such a state is desire for self-advertisement. And that is of the citta, not of a real self; hence “desire of the citta for self- advertisement”. Indeed, the citta associated with conceit wants a banner, and its state is reckoned as banner-conceit. When we learn about the characteristic of conceit we can see the difference between the moment of akusala citta and of mettĺ. Akusala citta does not have the characteristic of gentleness and tenderness, at such a moment there is no feeling of closeness and friendship for others. If we want to develop mettĺ there must be “sati-sampajańńa”, mindfulness and understanding, in order to know when there is kusala citta and when there is akusala citta. At the moment of conceit there cannot be mettĺ. ****** Nina. #84362 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (115) nilovg Dear Connie, thank you for your kindness to take this chapter. This is your generosity. But by your footnote it is made clear that it is not yours. It is the citta that is generous, accompanied by sobhana cetasikas that perform their functions. If kusala citta does not arise it is impossible to give. Alobha and adosa that accompany the kusala citta perform their own functions. Also chanda: wish-to-do, which is indispensable. We may think of generosity, but without chanda the act of giving cannot be accomplished. Nina. Op 26-mrt-2008, om 5:19 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > The perfection of generosity is mentioned first among the ten > perfections. As we read in the definition of daana, given by the > Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct": > "Giving (daana) has the characteristic of relinquishing; its > function is to dispel greed for things that can be given away; its > manifestation is non-attachment, or the achievement of prosperity > and a favourable state of existence; an object that can be > relinquished is its proximate cause." Addition of footnote by Connie: To elucidate the nature of any ultimate reality, the Pali commentators propose four defining devices by means of which it can be delimited. These four devices are: (1) it's characteristic (lakkha.na), ie the salient quality of the phenomenon; (2) its function (rasa), its performance of a concrete task (kicca) or achievement of a goal (sampatti); (3) its manifestation (paccupa.t.thaana), the way it presents itself within experience; and (4) its proximate cause (pada.t.thaana), the principal condition upon which it depends. >> #84363 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana & panna - II upasaka_howard In a message dated 3/25/2008 10:28:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply: H: "I have two comments: One is that in the phrase 'insight gained from jhana,' the 'from' may mean 'conditioned by' or 'resulting from,' or, as you say, Scott, serving as 'basis for insight.' Scott: I'll have to disagree. Proficiency in jhaana - that is in attaining any of the levels of jhaana - and the development of pa~n~naa are unrelated. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I strongly differ with you on this amazingly strong assertion. There are the following: 1) From SN 45.8: "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the _first jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j1) : rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the _second jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j2) : rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, is mindful & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the _third jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j3) , of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the _fourth jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j4) : purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." (I began with the definition of Right Concentration just to lay the groundwork.) 2) From AN 9.36: "I tell you, the _ending of the mental fermentations_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca3/nibbana.html) depends on the _first jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/ sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html#j1) ... the _second jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j2) ... the _third_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j3) ... the _fourth_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j4) ... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception." 3) From elsewhere in the Anguttara Nikaya, there is the following chain of conditionality: Virtuous ways of conduct -> Non-remorse -> Gladness -> Joy -> Serenity -> Happiness -> Concentration of the mind -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. 4) From SN 12.23: "The knowledge of destruction with respect to destruction has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge of destruction? 'Emancipation' should be the reply. "Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply. "Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply. "Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply. "The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply. 5) And from MN 36 [See MN 39 as well]: "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but it is not easy to achieve that pleasure with a body so extremely emaciated. Suppose I were to take some solid food: some rice & porridge.' So I took some solid food: some rice & porridge. Now five monks had been attending on me, thinking, 'If Gotama, our contemplative, achieves some higher state, he will tell us.' But when they saw me taking some solid food — some rice & porridge — they were disgusted and left me, thinking, 'Gotama the contemplative is living luxuriously. He has abandoned his exertion and is backsliding into abundance.' "So when I had taken solid food and regained strength, then — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details. "This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. "This was the second knowledge I attained in the second watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' "This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- H: "My other comment is that there is considerable overlap between jhana factors and enlightenment factors, and there are a number of suttas, including the Anupada Sutta that describe the mind, having been made a fit tool by the jhanas, then turning to take the features of a jhana, themselves, as objects of insight, and repeatedly seeing the inadequacy of one jhana, then, by relinquishment, moving on to a higher jhana. This is a process of a mind made fit and malleable repeatedly being engaged in the triadic sequence of examinination, disenchantment, and relinquishment. So, in these senses, it seems fitting to me to speak of 'insight gained from jhana' without any sense of jhana as sole provider of insight." Scott: To me, the above is imprecise. 'Jhaana factors' are all cetasikas and, as such, 'colour' citta when they arise conascent with citta. If by mind the sutta refers to 'citta' then this amounts to saying that an accompanying cetasika makes citta 'fit' according to its characteristic. A 'fit and malleable' mind is a description, first and foremost, of one citta with accompanying cetasikas. Since none of the factors (cetasikas) in any of the eight levels of jhaana is pa~n~naa, then there is no way that jhaana provides insight of any kind, 'sole' or otherwise. None of its constituents have 'insight' as characteristic. If 'mind' is considered as something other than momentary citta and accompanying cetasikas, then there is room to think about ongoing 'states of mind', which is a more or less modern, psychologistic way of thinking. Sincerely, Scott. ==================================== Clearly Scott, the jhanas are states that you do not value highly and that you do not think are relevant to the cultivation of wisdom and release. I find that to be a surprising, extreme take on the Dhamma. With metta, Howard #84364 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana & panna - II upasaka_howard Hi again, Scott - I just reread my post to you and saw that I had missed the salutation. Please excuse that mistake. With metta, Howard #84365 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Hi Larry, Op 26-mrt-2008, om 0:22 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina: "The object of insight is not a table or my fingers." > > Larry: This table and these fingers are groups of rupas that cannot be > indicated any other way. Surely they are included in "any materiality > whatever". What materiality do you comprehend as impermanent in the > sense of destruction? ------ N: The four great Elements and the derived rupas can be comprehended in the sense of destruction. Only one rupa at a time can be the object of awareness and understanding and this falls away immediately. All rupas of what you call a table arise and fall away within split seconds. But a 'whole' is not the object of insight. I think that sometimes a 'whole' is stressed too much. Sometimes I read the term 'aggregation of phenomena' with regard to a person. I understand why this term is used, but it may mislead people into thinking that it lasts even a little while. I can merely *think* of an aggregation, but I cannot experience it at this moment. When we consider insight leading to detachment, I find it more helpful to be aware of just one nama or one rupa without thinking of this or that person. As soon as we think of a person there is mostly attachment. People will immediately ask: what about metta. I think that the answer is: develop metta citta, the citta with metta. Nina. #84366 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:42 am Subject: The Jhanas and Freedom upasaka_howard Hi, all - The following sutta shows how ascending the jhanas can be a process of higher and higher release from confinement, leading ultimately to the wide-open vastness of freedom: AN 9.42 On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi at Ghosita's Park. Then Ven. Udayin went to him and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Ananda, "This has been said by Pañcalacanda the deva's son: 'Truly in a confining place, he found an opening the one of extensive wisdom, the awakened one who awakened to jhana, the chief bull, withdrawn, the sage.' "Now what, my friend, is the confining place? What is the attaining of an opening in the confining place?" [Ven. Ananda:] "The five strings of sensuality, my friend, are described by the Blessed One as a confining place. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... smells cognizable via the nose... tastes cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These five strings of sensuality are described by the Blessed One as a confining place. "Now there is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that directed thought & evaluation have not ceased. This is the confining place there. "Then there is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that rapture has not ceased. This is the confining place there. "Then there is the case where a monk, with the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, is mindful & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that the pleasure of equanimity has not ceased. This is the confining place there. "Then there is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that the perception of form has not ceased. This is the confining place there. "Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has not ceased. This is the confining place there. "Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has not ceased. This is the confining place there. "Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that the perception of the dimension of nothingness has not ceased. This is the confining place there. "Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception has not ceased. This is the confining place there. "Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, without a sequel." With metta, Howard #84367 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana & panna - II scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply: Howard: "I strongly differ with you on this amazingly strong assertion." Amazingly Strong Assertion: 'Proficiency in jhaana - that is in attaining any of the levels of jhaana - and the development of pa~n~naa are unrelated.' Scott: No worries. I'm just making a thesis statement so we can discuss. I was hoping you could show how these two are related. I think that the attainment of skill in absorption, that is the ability to enter in and abide in 'jhaana', is not a necessary condition for the development of pa~n~naa. There are the following: 1) From SN 45.8: "And what is right concentration? There is the case...(I began with the definition of Right Concentration just to lay the groundwork.)..." Scott: Okay. I have no problem with Right Concentration. I'm referring to Alex's apparent assertion that an ability to attain jhaana is a prerequisite for the development of pa~n~naa. H: "...2) From AN 9.36: "I tell you, the _ending of the mental fermentations_depends on the _first jhana_... the _second jhana_... the _third_... the _fourth_... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception." Scott: The Paa.li for the phrase 'the ending of the mental fermentations depends on...jhaana' is: "jhaana.m nissaaya aasavaana.m khaya.m vadaami." While this is true of the jhaanas, that for the time that these moments arise there is a temporary suppression of the 'mental fermentations', this in no way connects skill in the attainment of the absorptions with the development of pa~n~naa; that is, the development of jhaana is independent of the development of pa~n~naa. To be clear, I'm saying that these are separate lines of development, and am not saying that 'concentration' is unnecessary. I am saying that concentration (citass'ekaggataa) arises in the moment of the path and performs its function of 'holding' citta steady on its object (nibbaana) during those moments. I'm saying that this (cittass'ekaggataa) is not jhaana. I'm saying that concentration in the case of the arising of the path is a natural facet of that moment - there must be concentration in order for there to be a focus on an object. This is true for any moment of consciousness since citta arises dependent on an object and that object must be a focussed on. H: "...3) From elsewhere in the Anguttara Nikaya, there is the following chain of conditionality..." Scott: What is the reference, please? H: "...4) From SN 12.23: "The knowledge of destruction with respect to destruction has a supporting condition...The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply." Scott: This confirms what I have said above. The Paa.li is: "Samaadhuupanisa.m yathaabhuuta~naa.nadassana.m." 'Samaadhi' is citass'ekaggataa. This simply states that in order for the 'knowledge and vision of things as they really are' to arise, in relation to any object, there needs be concentration in the moment. This does not relate to the development of concentration through skill in absorption. '~Na.naa' is knowledge and this is the domain of pa~n~naa cetasika. This is nothing to do with the development of concentration. When knowledge arises it does so with citass'ekaggataa naturally, since this mental factor has the function of assisting citta in a focus on an object. H: "...5) And from MN 36 [See MN 39 as well]..." Scott: This shows that the Buddha was competent in the attainment of jhaana but does not support the assertion that skill in absorption is what realizes the Noble Truths - this is the domain of pa~n~naa. H: "Clearly Scott, the jhanas are states that you do not value highly and that you do not think are relevant to the cultivation of wisdom and release. I find that to be a surprising, extreme take on the Dhamma." Scott: With respect, I think it unnecessary to imagine what I do or do not 'value highly'. This is only about views. I simply don't think that the view that skill in absorption (jhaana) is a prerequisite for the development of pa~n~naa is correct. I'm not saying you made this assertion, I'm just responding to your reply. In the above, and again you didn't make the original assertion, the putative link between the development of concentration via skill in the absorptions and the development of pa~n~naa was not supported. Also, please don't worry about missing the salutation. I know it was intended. Thanks for your concern. We are just discussing Dhamma using our two opposing views. Sincerely, Scott. #84368 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana & panna - II upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 3/26/2008 8:27:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: H: "...3) From elsewhere in the Anguttara Nikaya, there is the following chain of conditionality..." Scott: What is the reference, please? ================================= I didn't keep the exact reference - I'm sorry. The following is post in which this was included: ______________________________ From: upasaka@a... Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:35 am Subject: Jon/ More on Spirals Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Hi again, Jon - I just read the first two suttas from the book of tens in the A. Nikaya, and they are quite relevant to what we were discussing (growing out of VI, 50). In the first of these, the Buddha puts forth the following chain of conditionality: Virtuous ways of conduct -> Non-remorse -> Gladness -> Joy -> Serenity -> Happiness -> Concentration of the mind -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. This, of course, is quite similar to the content of VI, 50. What is interesting to me is the material of the very next sutta, the second sutta of the book of tens. It puts forward the very same chain of conditionality as above, but, at the end *circling back* to virtuous ways of conduct once again. And then the sutta closes with the following: "Thus, monks, the preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection, for going from the near shore to the far shore." This is exactly the spiral conditionality that I was suggesting, and is, of course, in harmony with both of our understandings that all the factors affect each other. With metta, Howard #84369 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana & panna - II scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Compuslive correction: '~Na.naa' should be ~Naa.na. And thanks for steering me towards the reference I requested. Sincerely, Scott. #84370 From: "jill.sanders23" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:37 pm Subject: as they really are jill.sanders23 After some rather weird spontaneous experiences, and of which I mentioned to only a few friends, and all of whom looked rather puzzled, somebody suggested checking out Buddhism. A brief look, for religions have never interested me, I found this "Knowledge and vision of things as they really are" . So, what does Buddhism claim things really are. I get the feeling that Buddhism seem to be saying that this world is an illusion of some kind and that goal of Buddhism seems to be that of wanting to get out of it. But maybe I have grasped it wrong. I hope it is ok to ask some questions. Jill. #84371 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:50 pm Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? kenhowardau Hi James and Colette, ----- <. . .> James: > I can understand and accept both of these concepts of reality; however, I don't understand the Abhidhamma concept. To say that rupa exists, for example, but an apple doesn't- is a contradiction. What is an apple if not rupa? Unless, of course, what they are saying is that what we view as an apple is filtered through delusion. But, how is it filtered through delusion? It seems as if the Abhidhamma is proposing a type of philosophical idealism which states that the world doesn't exist, people don't exist, nothing exists- except, again, that vague and undefined "nama and rupa"! What is that? What does that mean? The more I try to pin down an answer the more elusive it seems. ----- Hallelujah! I am always happy whenever I see one of DSG's formal meditators grasping the basic Abhidhamma explanation. (Even if they strongly disagree with it!) In truth and reality there are only namas and rupas - there are no people or apples or other pannatti. That is the basic Abhidhamma explanation. *Some* DSG people, however, seem to believe the Abhidhamma also recognises "complex networks of inter-related namas and rupas." As far as I know, it recognises nothing of the kind. Ken H PS: I'll admit that Jon (that great Abhidhamma stalwart) has occasionally conceded there are "streams" of namas and rupas. I have no doubt that he uses such concepts purely as aids to understanding the how the present, momentary, realities came about. Even so, I intend to grill him about these so-called "streams" when I see him next week. :-) KH #84372 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/26/2008 6:51:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi James and Colette, ----- <. . .> James: > I can understand and accept both of these concepts of reality; however, I don't understand the Abhidhamma concept. To say that rupa exists, for example, but an apple doesn't- is a contradiction. What is an apple if not rupa? Unless, of course, what they are saying is that what we view as an apple is filtered through delusion. But, how is it filtered through delusion? It seems as if the Abhidhamma is proposing a type of philosophical idealism which states that the world doesn't exist, people don't exist, nothing exists- except, again, that vague and undefined "nama and rupa"! What is that? What does that mean? The more I try to pin down an answer the more elusive it seems. ----- Hallelujah! I am always happy whenever I see one of DSG's formal meditators grasping the basic Abhidhamma explanation. (Even if they strongly disagree with it!) In truth and reality there are only namas and rupas - there are no people or apples or other pannatti. That is the basic Abhidhamma explanation. *Some* DSG people, however, seem to believe the Abhidhamma also recognises "complex networks of inter-related namas and rupas." As far as I know, it recognises nothing of the kind. Ken H PS: I'll admit that Jon (that great Abhidhamma stalwart) has occasionally conceded there are "streams" of namas and rupas. I have no doubt that he uses such concepts purely as aids to understanding the how the present, momentary, realities came about. Even so, I intend to grill him about these so-called "streams" when I see him next week. :-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: No you, no Jon, no grilling, no him to be seen, and no next week. So what in H - - are you talking about? Er, forget that - no you who's talking, and no talking either! ----------------------------------------------------------- KH ============================ With metta, Howard, the aggregation who has made no statement about what the Abhidhamma recognizes, writing to Ken, who contradictorily believes in five aggregates but not in the aggregation called "Ken". /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #84373 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:59 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana & panna - II truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Scott: This is confusing. I'll leave off the part about 'merit that > is gained from Bhavana' >>>> Do I understand that reaching Jhana helps one to be reborn in Rupa (or Arupa) Loka, assuming that one hasn't commited any heavy/weighty negative Kamma? Its in CMA, and in the suttas. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html#rupa >>>>>>> since this makes no sense to me. Please show me where in the texts it is said that 'jhaana is required as one of the causes for strong Insight'. >>> Upanisa Sutta. Furthermore MN26. The Buddha when he got Awakened, and when he decided to teach, the FIRST TWO TEACHERS were arupavadins (Alara & Udakka_. Furthermore there are simply too many suttas where for example one opens Panna-cakkhu (eye of wisdom) after reaching Nirodha and seeing with wisdom (MN111, Mogallana samyutta, MN25-26, and more) Furthermore the Knowledge that is Arahatship is dependent on Jhanas: 1) Conscience & concern 2) Purity of conduct 3)Restraint of the senses 4) Moderation in eating 5) Wakefulness 6)Mindfulness & alertness 7) Abandoning the hindrances 8) The four jhanas 9) The three knowledges The step preceding #9 (Three Super Knowledges) is #8 (4 Jhanas). DN# 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 MN#4, 27,36,39,51,60,65,76,77,7,101,112,119,125 MN125 (with 4 satipathanas b4 2nd and higher Jhana) MN119 (with slight variations, but 3 tevijja are there) 77 - with some additions (but still they happen from/after 4th Jhana) 112 (2 knowledges are omitted, but the final is mentioned) ---- MN Suttas that mention the Jhanas in a significant way MN 4, 6, 8, 13, 19, 35, 30, 31, 36, 38, 43, 45, 53, 53, 59, 64, 65, 66, 76, 77, 78, 79, 85, 106, 107, 108, 111, 112, 113, 119, 121, 128, 137, 138, 139, 141 http://www.leighb.com/studymn.htm --- <<<<< And by jhaana, by the way, I'm making > the assumption that you are referring to any of the eight states of > absorption - the ruupa-jjhaanas and the aruupa-jjhaanas - and not to > the cetasika citass'ekaggataa. >>> Correct. "Whatever a teacher should do â€" seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them â€" that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, Ananda. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you all." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.152.than.html "Now, Ananda, I have taught the practice conducive to the imperturbable. I have taught the practice conducive to the dimension of nothingness. I have taught the practice conducive to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. I have taught the way to cross over the flood by going from one support to the next, the noble liberation. Whatever a teacher should do â€" seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them â€" that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, Ananda. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you all." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.106.than.html Lots of Metta, Alex #84374 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Nina, I see no problem with thinking about fingers and tables as impermanent. After all, that is what we are attached to. And I have it on the authority of Ken H that when thinking is rooted in wisdom it qualifies as insight. Larry #84375 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:14 pm Subject: Re: Adverting consciousness vs manasikara which adverts philofillet Hi Nina Thanks for your explanation. Confusion on this point nicely cleared up. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Phil, > Op 26-mrt-2008, om 1:21 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > > > So even the two kinds of adverting consciousness have a cetasika > > which adverts (as the CMA puts it, or "assists in experiencing" as you > > put it?) > ------ > N: Yes, it is never lacking, even now! > -------- > > > #84376 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:48 am Subject: Ceasing is Bliss! bhikkhu0 Friends: How to reach the Ease and Peace of Ceasing? At Savatthi, the Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, when the experience of stilling, ending, stopping, and ceasing is developed and cultivated, then it is of great fruit & immense benefit! It leads to great good, it leads to great security from bondage, it leads to a great sense of urgency, it leads to living in fearless ease & comfort! How, Bhikkhus, is the experience of ceasing developed & cultivated, so that it is of great fruit and benefit? Here, the Bhikkhu systematically develops the: 1: The Awareness Link to Awakening, joined with the experience of ceasing. 2: The Investigation of states Link to Awakening, while examining full stilling. 3: The Energy Link to Awakening, perceiving an ultimate ending of all activity. 4: The Joy Link to Awakening, while laughing at the complete cessation of all. 5: The Tranquillity Link to Awakening, accompanied by calm & serene silencing. 6: The Concentration Link to Awakening, focused on fading away of all states. 7: The Equanimity Link to Awakening, indifferent even at the final stopping, while being based upon seclusion, disillusion, halting, & maturing in release... It is in this very way that the experience of stilling & ceasing into peace is developed & cultivated, so that it is of great advantage, great benefit, great good, great security from bondage, great sense of urgency, and living in the great ease of calmed, fearless and imperturbable comfort! Bhikkhus, when the perception of ceasing is developed and cultivated in this way fused and enhanced by the Seven Links to Awakening, one of two fruits is to be expected: Either final knowledge in this very life or, if there is a remaining residue of clinging, the state of non-returning ... Comments: Ceasing is Bliss... Ceasing of What? Ceasing of the internal yet infernal Fire of Greed, Fire of Hate, and Fire of Ignorance & their offshoots! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta NikÄ?ya. Book [V:133-4] section 46: The Links. 76: Cessation... Ceasing is Bliss! Source: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Ceasing.htm Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #84377 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] as they really are lbidd2 Hi Jill, Welcome to the group. Jill: "So, what does Buddhism claim things really are. I get the feeling that Buddhism seem to be saying that this world is an illusion of some kind and that goal of Buddhism seems to be that of wanting to get out of it." Larry: Things are really mentality and materiality. Mentality is comprised of feeling, perception, mental volition, and consciousness. Materiality is the four great elements (earth, wind, fire, and water) and the materiality dependent on them, the material objects of the 6 senses. Each has its own nature but they all are impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not-self. The delusion is in thinking that things are lasting, will make us happy, and are me or mine. Knowledge and vision of all this will lead to the cessation (nibbana) of this unsatisfactoriness. This is characterized as peace. Another way of framing this is as the Four Noble Truths: the truth of suffering ("unsatisfactoriness"), the cause of suffering (desire), the end of suffering (cessation), and the way to the end of suffering (right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration). Why do you ask? Larry #84378 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:50 pm Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hallelujah! I am always happy whenever I see one of DSG's formal > meditators grasping the basic Abhidhamma explanation. (Even if they > strongly disagree with it!) James: All I did was provide a summary of what I see presented here in DSG (and in the Vism's last section), that doesn't really mean that I "grasp" it. Actually, I was hoping that someone would explain it to me in simple, straightforward terms because I find the concept untenable. I wouldn't even really say that I disagree with it because I don't completely understand it. In truth and reality there are only > namas and rupas - there are no people or apples or other pannatti. > That is the basic Abhidhamma explanation. James: I still see this as a philosophical idealism* (along the lines of Plato) which bears little resemblance to the Dhamma. > > *Some* DSG people, however, seem to believe the Abhidhamma also > recognises "complex networks of inter-related namas and rupas." As > far as I know, it recognises nothing of the kind. James: From what I have seen Tep post from the Abhidhamma, the Abhidhamma recognizes people and beings...so I am always wondering what Abhidhamma we are speaking of. > > Ken H Metta, James *Idealism is the doctrine that ideas, or thought, make up either the whole or an indispensable aspect of any full reality, so that a world of material objects containing no thought either could not exist as it is experienced, or would not be fully "real." Idealism is often contrasted with materialism, both belonging to the class of monist as opposed to dualist or pluralist ontologies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism #84379 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau Hi all, Continuing with [Comprehension by Groups - Application of the Text]: "15. And all that [materiality] 'is painful in the sense of terror'. In the sense of terror because of its terrifyingness; for what is impermanent brings terror, as it does so to the deities in the Sihopama-sutta (S.iii,84). So this is also painful in the sense of terror. Accordingly there is one kind of comprehension in this way too; but it is effected in eleven ways. " ----- KH: > Do we all remember the eleven ways? Yes, of course we do, but, just for the record, they are "past, future, present, internal, external, gross, subtle, inferior, superior, far and near." I don't remember any discussion of the Sihopama Sutta. I assume it gives an instance of how states of woe will eventually arise even if, for certain deities, they are a long way in the future. That kind of story would be a metaphor for how the present dhamma is 'painful in the sense of terror.' ----- "16. And just as it is painful, so too all that [materiality] is 'not self in the sense of having no core'. In the sense of having no core because of the absence of any core of self conceived as a self, an abider, a doer, an experiencer, one who is his own master; for what is impermanent is painful (S.iii,82)," ------ KH: > This is good material for discussion even though DSG has had such discussions many times. As I see it there is no harm in understanding nama as the "experiencer" of objects or the "performer" of functions (etc). The trouble arises only when we conceive a "core of self" as doing those things. ------- "and it is impossible to escape the impermanence, or the rise and fall, and oppression, of self, so how could it have the state of a doer, and so on? Hence it is said, 'Bhikkhus, were materiality self it would not lead to affliction' (S.iii,66), and so on. Accordingly, there is one kind of comprehension in this way too, but is effected in eleven ways. [611] The same method applies to feeling and so on." "17. But what is impermanent is necessarily classed as formed, etc., and so in order to show the synonyms for that [impermanence], or in order to show how the attention given to it occurs in different ways, it is restated in the text thus: Materiality whether past present or future is impermanent, formed dependently arisen subject to destruction, subject to fall, subject to fading away, subject to cessation' (Para.7). The same method applies to feeling and so on." ------- Ken H #84380 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:09 pm Subject: The Perfections - Connie, Sarah, Nina/ e-card from Adelaide sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, I'm laughing as I type this, because I have a huge black, docile, Tibetan Mastif dog (at my brother-in-law's)'assisting' me, trying to lick my hands affectionately and poking his nose at the computer screen:-)) I'm so sorry to hear that you're continuing to have problems. Please save your energy and don't type too much. I see that Connie is kindly taking the 'lead'. 'Time' is near for us all - we never know what may happen next. We'll catch up later if we can. A long flight with very little sleep and lots of social engagements......We also need to buy or borrow some warm clothes, brrr..... Oh and last night, we had a discussion with Jon's brother Mike and about-to-be-wife, Sue, about Jainism vs Buddhism. He has lots of Jain antiques in his house and garden and has a real interest in Jainism and has visited many Jain teachers in India, many of which preached naked (which he and Sue found very natural!). We talked a little about renunciation (nekkhama) as a mental state, rather than as bodily actions and also touched on ahimsa (non-harming). I briefly gave a summary of MN 36, MahaSaccaka Sutta, about the conversation between Aggivasena, Mahavira's student (?as I recalled)and the Buddha on renunciation and mental and bodily seclusion as I discussed recently with Phil and others. I'm printing the sutta out for Mike and Sue. They were also very interested to hear about DSG, but they're extremely busy people, so we'll see....I'm not sure how much sense we were making as we were so tired, we were almost nodding off. We eventually rolled into bed and I was 'out' almost immediately, only to be woken by some extraordinary noises outside our garden room. What I found out in the morning was that the 'docile' Tibetan Mastif dog had actually caught a possum and 'given' it to one of the other dogs to play with..... Metta, Sarah p.s Welcome to DSG, Jill! Do introduce yourself and ask as many questions as you like. I hope others will reply as I have to go out now. ======== --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah and all, > > I am not competent to ‘supervise’ and lead.’ > My health is not good, Sarah. #84381 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (115) hantun1 Dear Connie, Thank you very much for continuing with the Perfections. Saadhu! x3 for your Dhamma daana. Respectfully, Han #84382 From: "connie" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:23 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (115) nichiconn nilovg Dear Connie, thank you for your kindness to take this chapter. This is your generosity. But by your footnote it is made clear that it is not yours. It is the citta that is generous, accompanied by sobhana cetasikas that perform their functions. If kusala citta does not arise it is impossible to give. Alobha and adosa that accompany the kusala citta perform their own functions. Also chanda: wish-to-do, which is indispensable. We may think of generosity, but without chanda the act of giving cannot be accomplished. Nina. =========Dear Nina, All prompted, I assure you! CMA Cittasangaha Guide to I-4 (sankhaara) <> despite inner resistance! "no doubt". Chanda - ethically variable. "Ethically" I guess means "samma or akusala"... if it ain't daana, siila or bhaavaana, it ain't kusala. there's a cold shower. connie. #84383 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:56 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana & panna - II scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply. Sincerely, Scott. #84384 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] as they really are kenhowardau Hi Jill and Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Jill, > > Welcome to the group. > > Jill: "So, what does Buddhism claim things really are. I get the feeling > that Buddhism seem to be saying that this world is an illusion of some > kind and that goal of Buddhism seems to be that of wanting to get out of > it." > > Larry: Things are really mentality and materiality. Welcome from me too, Jill. Your question "So, what does Buddhism claim things really are?" is an excellent one. However, rather than try to answer it the way Larry has, I would prefer first to reword it as "What does the Buddha claim really exists?" That was the way various learned monks were inclined to question the Buddha in the suttas (e.g., in the Loka-sutta). In the Sabba Sutta the Buddha explains it this way: "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & [mental phenomena]. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." In the above I have changed "ideas" (which is Ven. Thanissaro's translation for "dhammaayatana") into "mental phenomenom" which is Ven. Bodhi's translation. There is a crucial difference. Unlike mental phenomena, ideas are not absolute realities. They do not belong in the "all" that that Buddha taught. So, Jill, your next step at DSG is (IMHO) to earn more about these things called eye, forms, ear, sounds, nose, . . . mental phenomenom. Obviously, the Buddha was not referring to the fleshy body-parts and other permanent objects that we normally associate with those names. He was talking about conditioned paramattha dhammas (absolute realities). Only a Buddha can discover conditioned paramattha dhammas and describe them to others in such a way that they, too, can directly know them for themselves. Ken H #84385 From: "connie" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:35 pm Subject: as they really are nichiconn dear Jill, from A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Guide to I.Cittasangaha #3: << Sense-sphere consciousness (kaamaavacaracitta): The word kaama means both subjective senuality, ie the five external sense-objects - visible forms, sounds, smells, tastes, and tangivles. The kaamabhuumi is the sensuous plane of existence, which comprises eleven realms - the four woeful states, the human realm, and the six snesuous heavens. Sense-sphere consciousness includes all those cittas that have their proper domain in the sensuous plane of existence, though they may arise in other planes as well. >> << Supramundane consciousness (lokuttaracitta): The word lokuttara, supramundane, is derived from loka = world, and uttara = beyond, transcendent to. The concept of "world" is threefold: the world of living beings (sattaloka), the physical universe (okaasaloka), and the world of formations (sankhaaraloka), that is, the totality of conditioned phenomena, physical and mental. The notion of world relevant here is the world of formations, that is, all mundane phenomena included within the five aggregates of clinging. That which transcends the world of conditioned things is the unconditioned element, Nibbaana, and the types of consciousness that directly accomplish the realization of Nibbaana are called lokuttaracitta, supramundane consciousness. The other threee types are called, in distinction, lokiyacitta, mundane consciousness. >> end quotes. Not so much maybe that the world is an illusion but more that our views, which must be the actual "religion" we follow, are skewed & misleading. Nice meeting you, connie #84386 From: "connie" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:51 pm Subject: Compuslive correction nichiconn Dear Scott and All, I spelled bhaavanaa bhaavaana a few posts ago. Sorry! connie #84387 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:12 pm Subject: Re: Compuslive correction scottduncan2 Dear connie, Regarding: c: "I spelled bhaavanaa bhaavaana a few posts ago. Sorry!" Scott: Perhaps the best post ever. No, this is the Best Post Ever. Sincerely, Scott. #84388 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] as they really are buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > In the Sabba Sutta the Buddha explains it this way: "Monks, I will > teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." > "As you say, lord," the monks responded. > The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & > sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, > intellect & [mental phenomena]. This, monks, is called the All. > Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe > another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his > statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put > to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." > > In the above I have changed "ideas" (which is Ven. Thanissaro's > translation for "dhammaayatana") into "mental phenomenom" which is > Ven. Bodhi's translation. There is a crucial difference. Unlike > mental phenomena, ideas are not absolute realities. They do not > belong in the "all" that that Buddha taught. What is "intellect" in the Sabba Sutta? Why is it more appropriate to say that mental phenomena is the object of the intellect instead of ideas? Metta, James #84389 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:55 pm Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? kenhowardau Hi Howard, --------- <. . .> Howard: > No you, no Jon, no grilling, no him to be seen, and no next week. --------- I agree, ultimately those things are mere stories. But, unlike you, I don't see any problem with that. Thinking is an ultimate reality, and so there will be stories about (for example) going to Thailand. But that's as far as it goes. There is no actual Thailand, nor any actual going-to-Thailand, nor a goer- to-Thailand. As I say, I don't see any problem with that. To me, the Abhidhamma explanation is perfectly satisfactory. There are no inexplicable loose ends. Ken H #84390 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:12 pm Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? kenhowardau Hi James, --------- <. . .> James: > All I did was provide a summary of what I see presented here in DSG (and in the Vism's last section), that doesn't really mean that I "grasp" it. Actually, I was hoping that someone would explain it to me in simple, straightforward terms because I find the concept untenable. I wouldn't even really say that I disagree with it because I don't completely understand it. ---------- It's not for me to say, but maybe your difficulty is due to your trying to find a version of the Dhamma that you can agree with. It might be better if you just learnt the Abhidhamma explanations that are found in the texts, and worried later about agreement and disagreement. ------------------ KH: > > In truth and reality there are only > namas and rupas - there are no people or apples or other pannatti. > That is the basic Abhidhamma explanation. James: I still see this as a philosophical idealism* (along the lines of Plato) which bears little resemblance to the Dhamma. ----------------- I wish I could help. To me, the Abhidhamma explanation is perfect. It *is* the Dhamma. It is the most wonderful thing in the world. But that's just me; for you it is different. ---------------------------- KH: > > *Some* DSG people, however, seem to believe the Abhidhamma also > recognises "complex networks of inter-related namas and rupas." As > far as I know, it recognises nothing of the kind. James: From what I have seen Tep post from the Abhidhamma, the Abhidhamma recognizes people and beings...so I am always wondering what Abhidhamma we are speaking of. ------------------- As I was saying, for me there is no question. Only the presently arisen paramattha dhammas truly exist. Therefore, if Tep, or anyone else, argues that sentient beings (as distinct from paramattha dhammas) are described in the Abhidhamma I am not phased by the possibility he may be right. I don't know what part of the texts he could be referring to, but there will be an explanation. There might, for example, be places where where descriptions of sentient beings are given as metaphors. (?) Ken H #84391 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] as they really are kenhowardau Hi James, Thanks for the question: -------- J: > Why is it more appropriate to say that mental phenomena is the object of the intellect instead of ideas? -------- In the Sabba Sutta the Buddha was categorising the things that could exist in the loka (the ultimately real world). Therefore, he made no mention in that sutta of ideas (concepts). Elsewhere in the Dhamma it is explained that [mind-door] citta can know concepts. But that doesn't mean concepts are real. It just means mind- door citta can experience illusory things. Ken H #84392 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Ken, Ken: "I don't remember any discussion of the Sihopama Sutta. I assume it gives an instance of how states of woe will eventually arise even if, for certain deities, they are a long way in the future. That kind of story would be a metaphor for how the present dhamma is 'painful in the sense of terror.' " Larry: That's basically it. The deities in this sutta were terrified when they heard the "lion's roar" of the Buddha's teaching on impermanence. This may also be a foreshadowing of the insight knowledge of appearance as terror. Whatever arises is destroyed. That is terror. It is not that the meditator is afraid. "Terror" is a characteristic of destruction, like looking at a war zone and seeing nothing but devastation. Ken: "As I see it there is no harm in understanding nama as the "experiencer" of objects or the "performer" of functions (etc). The trouble arises only when we conceive a "core of self" as doing those things." Larry: But a core is defined as an experiencer and a performer. Consciousness experiences an object and performs a function, but it is not an experiencer or a performer. However, the thrust of the argument here is that consciousness is not an experiencer because it is painful in the sense of terror. "Were materiality [or consciousness] self it would not lead to affliction." Larry #84393 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] as they really are buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: Hi James, Thanks for the question: James: Thanks for the answer but it isn't complete. You cut off the first question: What is "intellect" in the Sabba Sutta? Metta, James -------- J: > Why is it more appropriate to say that mental phenomena is the object of the intellect instead of ideas? -------- In the Sabba Sutta the Buddha was categorising the things that could exist in the loka (the ultimately real world). Therefore, he made no mention in that sutta of ideas (concepts). Elsewhere in the Dhamma it is explained that [mind-door] citta can know concepts. But that doesn't mean concepts are real. It just means mind- door citta can experience illusory things. Ken H --- End forwarded message --- #84394 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:39 am Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > It's not for me to say, but maybe your difficulty is due to your > trying to find a version of the Dhamma that you can agree with. It > might be better if you just learnt the Abhidhamma explanations that > are found in the texts, and worried later about agreement and > disagreement. James: I'm not going to agree with something just because it is in an ancient text- especially a text with dubious origins. Metta, James #84395 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:51 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 249, 250, and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 249, 250 Intro: In the following sections the Visuddhimagga deals with the link: clinging conditions becoming, bhava. There are two meanings of becoming: becoming in the sense of kamma-process becoming, kamma- bhava, and in the sense of rebirth-process becoming, upatti-bhava. Kamma-process becoming is kamma that is the cause of rebirth, and rebirth-process becoming is the result of kamma in the form of rebirth. There are different aspects to bhava, becoming, that will be explained in the following sections: the aspect of word meaning, of state or dhamma, etc. -------- Text Vis. 249: As to the clause 'With clinging as condition, becoming': (1) As to meaning, ------- N: The Tiika states: the meaning of the term. The term bhava is explained. ------- Text Vis.: (2) as to state, ----------- N: dhamma, referring to sabhaava dhamma: dhamma with its own nature or characteristic. -------- Text Vis.: (3) Purpose, ------- N: Purpose, saatha, this refers to the benefit of repetition of what was formerly said according to the Tiika. It was said that kamma-formation conditions rebirth-consciousness, (vi~n~naa.na), and now this has been repeated in the sentence: clinging conditions becoming. The benefit (sappaya) of this repetition will be explained. Different aspects are emphasized when one compares the original statement and the sentence: clinging conditions becoming. -------- Text Vis.: (4) analysis, (5) synthesis, (6) And which for which becomes condition, The exposition should be known. ---------- N: The Tiika adds as to no 6: which kinds of clinging are conditions for which kinds of becoming. ------------- Text Vis. 250: 1. 'As to meaning': Herein, it becomes (bhavati), thus it is becoming (bhava). That is twofold as kamma-process becoming and rebirth-process becoming, according as it is said: 'Becoming in two ways: there is kamma-process becoming and there is rebirth-process becoming' (Vbh. 137). Herein, the kamma process itself as becoming is 'kamma-process becoming'; likewise the rebirth process itself as becoming is 'rebirth-process becoming'. And here, rebirth is becoming since it becomes; but just as 'The arising of Buddhas is bliss' (Dh. 194) is said because it causes bliss, so too kamma should be understood as 'becoming', using for it the ordinary term for its fruit, since it causes becoming. This, firstly, is how the exposition should be known here 'as to meaning'. ------- N: As to kamma-process becoming, kamma-bhava, the term becoming, bhava, is included here, which is the commonly used term for its fruit (phalavohaara) as the Tiika states. In other words: Kamma is the cause of becoming, but the term becoming is added to kamma-process. As to the second meaning of becoming, this is rebirth-becoming, upapatti-bhavan. Upapatti means arising. Thus, bhava is becoming or birth, upatti bhava, and bhava also denotes its cause, namely by the term kamma bhava. -------- Conclusion: We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (II, Kindred Sayings on Cause, § 52, Grasping) that the Buddha said, while at Saavatthii: Also at this moment we cling to all objects presenting themselves through the six doors and thus fuel is being supplied time and again for rebirth. ---------- Nina. #84396 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] as they really are nilovg Dear Jill, welcome to the list. Op 26-mrt-2008, om 20:37 heeft jill.sanders23 het volgende geschreven: > I found this "Knowledge and vision of things > as they really are" . So, what does Buddhism claim things really > are. I > get the feeling that Buddhism seem to be saying that this world is an > illusion of some kind and that goal of Buddhism seems to be that of > wanting to get out of it. ---------- N: It is good to ask oneself first: what is experienced and what is it that experiences? We often hear the word mind, but what is this mind? It is actually only a moment of consciousness. If there were no consciousness nothing could appear. We think of the world and all the people in it, but this thinking is only a moment of consciousness that does not last. We can think of the world because of what we see or hear. Seeing is not the same as hearing or thinking, they are all different moments of consciousness. Through the Buddhis teachings we learn more about the different moments of consciousness, of feelings, of happiness and sorrow. They all arise for a moment and do not last. We cannot make them arise. When it is time for sorrow, it has to arise and we cannot prevent it. Some moments are wholesome and beneficial such as generosity, when you help others, whereas other moments are unwholesome, not beneficial, such as anger and selfishness. The Buddha teaches us the wisdom to know more about all these different moments and this is the way to become less deluded. Now I add some advice from the moderators to new comers. In the beginning you may find the terms used here confusing. ---------- 3. Go to the files section of DSG http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ and scroll down to 'Useful Posts'. Here, scroll down to 'New to the list and new to Buddhism', also 'Abhidhamma-beginners', 'Kamma-beginners' and many more sections which may be relevant. [If it's all too much, just go to posts saved under 'zany' at the bottom:-)]. 4. If the Pali words are bugging you and you'd like to have help, consider printing out the simple Pali glossary in the files and having it next to your computer. 5. Keep asking people to clarify what they are talking about in simple language. You'll do everyone a favour. But we need an indication of what you're interested to have clarified first. ---------- Nina. #84397 From: "colette" Date: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:12 am Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? ksheri3 HI JAMES, I think I need a respirator after reading your post to me. MANY THANKS for giving such a lucid description of YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS concerning Nama, Rupa, the Theravadan conception of the two, and the Yogacara conception! As I read it it was soooooo clear in my mind since I could never had made it come out so easily and smoothly. It will take time, tonight and a few days, to actually grasp all of the post so that I can, then, hope to be able to place MY CONCEPTS in so few words that fit together so nicely and fluidly. Take care. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Colette (and Sarah), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > > > Hi James, > > > > GREAT POSITION! > > > > It's late so I can't type much but I want to watch the developement > > of this discussion. > > > > > Thanks for your vote of confidence. I am hesitant to equate "human" > with "nama and rupa" when speaking in ontological terms. However, > when conventional terms are mixed with ontological terms, as Sarah is > doing in her analysis of this sutta, then all bets are off. ;-)) <....> #84398 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Hi Larry, Op 27-mrt-2008, om 1:09 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I see no problem with thinking about fingers and tables as > impermanent. > After all, that is what we are attached to. And I have it on the > authority of Ken H that when thinking is rooted in wisdom it qualifies > as insight. --------- N: We are not only attached to concepts of fingers, but also to colour, sound, seeing, thinking, to all objects, namas and rupas. Only, we do not notice that we are attached and that makes it so dangerous. There are dhammas appearing all the time, but we do not know that they are dhammas, cloaked by ignorance as we are. Thinking cannot eliminate ignorance of paramattha dhammas. Even thinking accompanied by understanding. There are many degrees of understanding: intellectual, pariyatti, and direct understanding which is pa.tipatti and this can grow into pa.tivedha, the direct realization of the truth. Insight, from the first stage on is not thinking about nama and rupa. Pa~n~naa directly realizes rupa that appears as rupa and nama that appears as nama. At that moment there is no world, no self, also no self who realizes the difference between nama and rupa. When we think about impermanence of fingers there is still an idea of my thinking, I think. Nina. #84399 From: "colette" Date: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:35 am Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? ksheri3 Hi KH, > Hallelujah! I am always happy whenever I see one of DSG's formal > meditators grasping the basic Abhidhamma explanation. (Even if they > strongly disagree with it!) In truth and reality there are only > namas and rupas - there are no people or apples or other pannatti. > That is the basic Abhidhamma explanation. > colette: Wow, first James sends me back a few squares and takes my breath away, a bit, with such a cognizant explanation of nama & rupa where I told him that it will take me a day or two to contemplate this and pull it all in to my system, BUT, NOW, you come along and place a cherry on top of that scrumptious icing which James applied so easily. Maybe it is possible that people recognized that I have always accepted this Adhidharma-description of namas and rupas, and have kept that description out front while I continue grasping, I know that's a bad word to use around people like Nargarjuna but I don't have a better description, while I continue grasping the Yogacara- conceptualization and the Mind-Only School. IMO, Semde and Longde can be a bitch as I am continually confronted by my Western upbringing, luckily I'm reading a paper by A. Brahmavamso concerning the Four Jhanas and it helps through it's reassurance that we Westerners can transcend our handicaps and shortcomings to "realized" the Buddhist practices. In my Western esoteric study I've been known to practice magik and I have been known to be practicing some kabbalistic magik lately since 2004 when I found the internet and my family that study this stuff, which is why I've been utterly confounded that people have never come out and actually admitted that fundamental Abhidharma concept to me instead they try to run around mixing terminology and conceptuality. I even admitted to one group that I am a cook, when I was speaking with some groups from L.A. and San Jose (Oakland) area totally saying to this chief priest of a temple that "he's a good sous chef but he can't cook in my place." <.....> Gotta go. Thanks for the response. toodles, colette