#84800 From: "Chew" Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:17 am Subject: Khandha Yamaka - Study Report 23 chewsadhu Study Report 23 [30/211] Pali Text: Sa~n~naa sa~n~naakkhandhoti? di.t.thisa~n~naa sa~n~naa, na sa~n~naakkhandho. Sa~n~naakkhandho sa~n~naa ceva sa~n~naakkhandho ca. Khandhaa ruupakkhandhoti? ruupakkhandho khandho ceva ruupakkhandho ca. Avasesaa khandhaa, na ruupakkhandho. Translation: (i) It is perception. Is it perception aggregate? Wrong views based on perception are perception, but not perception aggregate. Perception aggregate is both perception and perception aggregate. They are aggregates. Are they matter aggregate? Matter aggregate is both aggregate and matter aggregate. The remainings are aggregates, but not the matter aggregate. Guide: Wrong views based on perception are wrong view mental factor. They are perception. They are not perception aggregate. Perception aggregate is perception mental factor. The remaining aggregates, which are not the matter aggregate, are feeling aggregate, perception aggregate, mental formation aggregate, and consciousness aggregate. from below link: http://khandhayamaka.blogspot.com/2008/04/study-report-23.html #84801 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) sarahprocter... Dear Phil & all, [I hope to write a series of e-cards now we've finished the discussions. I've also tried to encourage others to write up their notes or reflections. Today, Ven. Dhammanando joined us with Ven Pannabahulo and most the other regulars like Ken H, Azita, Rob K, Sukin, Ann, Maeve and Ivan/Matt. This was the last day of discussions for some of us for a while. Both Jon and I were given a dousing from a bucket of water each as we walked down the lane afterwards. However, it's so hot here that it seemed more like kusala vipaka.....!] ****** Phil, I read out your letter to Ajahn Sujin and the group almost at the start of the session after we printed it out. These are the rough notes I jotted down while she was speaking in response to a couple of sentences or so that were read out at a time, starting with the second half of your letter first: - (in response to the comment about how there is bound to be a trying to have too much understanding) - KS: "not much - just seeing, to understand seeing, not much..." - (in response to the 'bugs me' comment about her saying things like "just understand...") KS: "Should I tell anyone not to understand?" - (in response to the comment about guarding the sense doors and the ?SPD quote) - KS: "Without understanding, can there be a moment of indriya samvara through eyes, ears....When and where is indriya samvara without understanding of the object seen?" - (in response to the comment about "more mundane.....guarding" and "If there is no sense control......no virtue......") - KS: "What reality can control? There is no 'I', no self. What reality controls? Right understanding.....Not appreciating anatta." Robert mentioned texts which suggest to first purify with sila KS: "With what? There are 7 Visuddhis, starting with sila visuddhi. What can purify sila?" Rob. referred to the Vism. which you've read KS: "The Vism must agree with the Teachings. It depends on the reader. No understanding.....What can purify sila is right understanding only. Otherwise why did the Buddha teach, if not for the understanding of reality?" - (in response to the comment about "no leapfrogging to liberation. AS does too much leapfrogging") - KS: "Seeing....I didn't say anyone should become enlightened. By beginning to understand, little by little.....the only way." A little later, she added: "Who is leaping? The one who doesn't understand dhamma at all from moment to moment. The one who thinks he/she can control." - (in response to the comment about self in dhamma study vs mediatation and meditators seeking to control dhammas...) - KS: "Only thinking. No considering like that. (We need to be) very careful about each word about the the truth, not like that, atta...." Thanks Phil for all the grist for the mill. We all appreciated the comments and listening to the responses. No one denies the attachment, but the development of understanding of dhammas as anatta is very essential. I'm happy to try and elaborate on anything further. Metta, Sarah ===== --- Phil wrote: > but what bugs me about her is that elsewhere > she talks about being patient, about not rushing to get at the heart > of the Dhamma, then she says things like "just understand...just > understand..." to people who are dealing with issues. i.e just get > to the heart of the Buddha's teaching. Take this for example, on > guarding the sense doors. <....> #84802 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:27 am Subject: Sat's e-card from Bangkok - more on anatta sarahprocter... Dear Howard & All, Saturday's discussion (April 12th) with Qus from Ven P, Maeve, Nina, David, myself and others Some of my notes..... - Qu: Bhavanga cittas, a 'hypothetical situation'. Is it necessary to study the map of the world? A:Yes. Qu:Isn't it enough to study the ti-lakkhana? A:Where are we and where is the map? The first thing to understand is the term 'dhamma'. It represents all realities now. They are 'dhamma' because they don't belong to anyone. There are ideas about that (visible object) all the time, but actually there are no people. Apart from the moment of seeing, everything is in darkness. ***** - Qu about the Satipatthana Sutta and starting somewhere with one foundation. A: Can satipatthana arise now?.......Without understanding, don't think satipatthana can arise. It has to begin with very firm intellectual understanding first. **** - Qu about the Malunkyaputta Sutta, cutting the story, not proliferating... A: Please do it now! What's happening? No understanding. The Buddha didn't tell anyone to do or not do anything! **** On the subtlety of seeing....so simple, but no understanding. Whatever appears as a conditioned reality, arises and falls away in split seconds - that's why there's no understanding. No one can own anything - gone completely. **** - Qu about intellectual understanding and restructuring or thinking in a different way. A: Right understanding of whatever appears, not just imagining or thinking. Become acquainted to what is seen. Who is your friend? What is there? Only visible object. There is no friend - (we're) used to taking (objects) for something all day. -Qu about thinking of my frined. A: So natural, don't push it away. It's a hard 'word' to not do anything. 'I' again if you think there should be less thinking. ***** -Qu about meditation. A: No one understands meditation. If you sit for two hours, no understanding for two hours. Qu about observing the mind. A: Where is the mind to be observed now? Qu: It doesn't make sense to discuss and do nothing. A: Where is the mind? Qu: All over the place? A: Where is it now? One should be very careful because dhammas look alike but are not the same. Is calm wholesome or unwholesome? What we take for calm without understanding is attachment. People (also) take concentration for awarenesss and live without understanding of realities. **** - Qu about atoms A: Groups of rupas which stay only for 17 moments of citta, arising and falling away completely. *** We think we have lots of possessions such as a house, cars etc, but actually, nothing. After death comes, who can be that personality again? Anattaness. All about now! *** - Qu about sense of urgency, samvegga A: Who is concerned or wants to develop it? - Qu about making the most out of life A: (What about) seeing the benefit in developing understanding gradually. You don't have to ask 'how much I know'! What about the understanding of seeing? Qu about how the eye-door seems harder than the body-door A: Selection again! Who selects? Wanting to have urgency, not understanding reality. How can it be urgent? Easy to go wrong because of ignorance and clinging to 'I'. The teaching is for the elimination of wrong view and the idea of self. At the moment of gradually understanding reality, that is the urgency. Qu about getting older A: Not understanding. Clinging to self. **** Qu about the bodhisatta and his vow. A: If there's any idea of control it's just (wrong) thinking. Discussion on the conditions. **** Qu about Sanna - marking and remembering. 2 aspects of the same function? A: Yes. **** Qu about suttas re 'what one intends (ceteti)....' as in SN 38 (8), #83384, the significance, accumulations etc, basis (as discussed by Scott & Tep) A: Not being forgetful, understanding reality appearing now **** Qu about sutta re kusala as condition for pain and grief, as in MN46, #83871, also in Vism re insight as a condition of dosa (as discussed by Alex & me) Attachment to wholesome states, to insight leading to sorrow when it doesn't arise. Also can be scary to give up idea of self and so on because of clinging to realities as self. No more - no friend, no family, no one - scary. **** Qu about sutta on carelessly x 5, AN 5s, 'The confounding of Saddhamma, #83881 as quoted by Nina. A: Carelessly if there is the idea of doing something because doesn't understand anatta. What is conditioned now? The hard part is doing nothing! Reality is easy to know if you think it doesn't take long to know! The idea of doing something - careless Understanding dhamma - carefully considering, not careless. Carefulness - not just assuming we've heard enough. **** Metta, Sarah ========= #84803 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] eCard from Bangkok - Sunday jonoabb Hi Howard > P. S. With regard to synesthesia, my impression from very brief reading > about it is that it is considered to be an actual phenomenon by medical people. > My thoughts on it, however, are that when one, for example, "sees sounds," > what happens is that a sound is heard in the usual way (via the ear door), and > this hearing is immediately followed by "seeing" via the mind door. Based on what you say here, I would guess that the "seeing" via the mind is just a kind of thinking with visual concepts as object (i.e., no actual visible object involved). In which case, the "seeing" is only a strong form of mental proliferation. Is that how you see it? Jon #84804 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive jonoabb Hi TG Thanks for the detailed reply. I note that you feel you are being asked to repeat details already given. So rather than pursue the line I was taking, let me just ask this instead: Is what you are saying about the development of insight based on/covered by the terms suta/cinta/bhavana-maya panna (as described in the article you posted) or does it go beyond that in some sense? Thanks Jon > NEW TG: I'm not sure if anyone uses Suttas quotes, more than I, to back up > points. The quotes you are asking for now are "throughout" the Suttas, I > have posted them repeatedly over the last several months and years, and will > continue to do so at my leisure. However, if every time I make general > statements regarding what should be well known by a serious student of Suttas, I have > to run back and post the same old quotes that I've been consistently posting > for some time, and being asked to do so as it I hadn't done so in the first > place, its just another tedium I don't care for. I feel like I'm running > around in circles. BTW, those quotes, when posted, usually get "shelved" and > ignored and another point that is 'off point' gets being discussed. So the > posting of Sutta quotes to this group, in general, is 90% in vain. In other > words, the proof is just ignored. So you can see my frustration and lack of > incentive to spend the next hour or so searching for various quotes that when > posted, will likely not be given sufficient weight of examination to have > justified my time. #84805 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:58 am Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II jonoabb Hi James > James: Thank you for this explanation, but, again, could you point > to any texts which state this? I'd like to narrow our differences, if possible. Of the 2 statements I made (set out again below), which do you see as not being consistent with the Buddha's teaching (and how do you understand the teaching to be in this regard)? The 2 statements are: (a) all tendencies that arise from moment to moment, whether wholesome or unwholesome, are accumulated in the succeeding moment of consciousness (and thereafter lie latent except when there is occasion for them to manifest), and (b) insight knowledge accumulated in previous lives cannot arise in a subsequent lifetime unless and until the teaching on insight/the Four Noble Truths has been heard and understood in that subsequent lifetime (the only exception to this general rule being a Buddha). > James: You don't think there are texts which point to the importance > of jhana for wisdom? Just to recap. You originally claimed that there are texts that support the general proposition that "a person who has attained jhana would, on hearing the teachings, be able to see dhammas as they truly are." I am questioning whether there are such texts (because I do not know of any). As regards the question of "the importance of jhana for wisdom", which you mention above, there are of course plenty of texts that describe the attainment of enlightenment in circumstances where that enlightenment was preceded by jhana. But these texts do not state or point to jhana as a prerequisite for insight/enlightenment in all cases, and I know of no texts that do. Jon #84806 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:07 am Subject: Re: Jhana requires panna! (B-2) jonoabb Hi Walto > Building up even a single tree out of "phenomenal objects of sense" > has been a program of various philosophical schools since Berkeley > (in the 18th Century). Nobody's been able to do it. Not Mill, the > Compte positivists, not the Husserlians, not the Wittgensteinian > logical empiricists, nobody. I think what is being proposed is that when there is the idea of, say. a computer being seen and touched, as when writing or reading a message, the reality is in fact the experiencing of visible object (through one particular sense-door) and the experiencing of hardness (through another), and a lot of mental activity resulting in the idea of "computer". The question is simply whether such a description is consistent with our experience of the present moment and, if not, where the inconsistency lies. > It's a picture, no doubt, but there's quite a bit of what might be > called "hand-waving" going on there. When have you got an actual > door? In my view the door is there without any "sense-door > experiences" and if an epidemic were to whisk us all away tomorrow, > there'd still be that stubborn door. Sorry, but I haven't caught your drift. Would it be possible to state more plainly what you are saying about sense-door experiences? Thanks. > I can see why that would be confusing. I was focussing on > the "mere": I'd say that the data of our senses actually ARE things > like doors. So there aren't any "mere sense data" just, you know, > ordinary objects and 'perceivings' of them. These perceivings, in > my (realist) view, aren't of phenomena, ideas, or anything misty > like that, but of doors, trees, people, etc. They may be erroneous, > of course. Let's replace "mere" by "actual". Are you saying there is no actual sense-data experienced by the senses (visible object through the eyes, audible object through the ears, etc)? > Again, I was reiterating that the 'wonderful' thing about mental > acts is that they can be, indeed usually are, OF non-mental things. Er, is that all? Please develop this line of thinking further so that I can understand better its relevance. Thanks. Jon PS Thanks for the modus ponens, modus tollens explanation. That part I did manage to get! #84807 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sat's e-card from Bangkok - more on anatta upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - A few comments inserted by me below. In a message dated 4/15/2008 9:27:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Howard & All, Saturday's discussion (April 12th) with Qus from Ven P, Maeve, Nina, David, myself and others Some of my notes..... - Qu: Bhavanga cittas, a 'hypothetical situation'. Is it necessary to study the map of the world? A:Yes. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree, but it really only makes sense if one intends to make the trip. ;-) ---------------------------------------------- Qu:Isn't it enough to study the ti-lakkhana? A:Where are we and where is the map? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Sounds deep. But I don't see evidence of depth here. ---------------------------------------- The first thing to understand is the term 'dhamma'. It represents all realities now. They are 'dhamma' because they don't belong to anyone. --------------------------------------- Howard: They are dhamma, because they are distinguishable phenomena. It is true that they are ownerless, but that is not why they are called "dhamma". ---------------------------------------- There are ideas about that (visible object) all the time, but actually there are no people. --------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I disagree with that. As I see the matter, people are not what they seem to be, but there are people. --------------------------------------- Apart from the moment of seeing, everything is in darkness. ---------------------------------------- Howard: That's almost true. Apart from a moment of seeing, there is no seen - no sight. That is true. However, even darkness is seen. --------------------------------------- ***** - Qu about the Satipatthana Sutta and starting somewhere with one foundation. A: Can satipatthana arise now?.......Without understanding, don't think satipatthana can arise. It has to begin with very firm intellectual understanding first. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Satipatthana isn't wisdom. It is a foundation of mindfulness - a category of phenomena that can be attended to mindfully. ----------------------------------------- **** - Qu about the Malunkyaputta Sutta, cutting the story, not proliferating... A: Please do it now! What's happening? No understanding. The Buddha didn't tell anyone to do or not do anything! ------------------------------------------- Howard: Completely in error. There are SO many examples to the contrary. What is not in error is that the less an action is infected by sense-of-self, especially by thinking of self, the better. There is the story of the centipede who did the most beautiful and intricate dance, much loved by all who saw it, until he was asked to think about whether his 5th leg was up or down when he lifted his 17th leg, and from that moment of thinking about the dance in terms of "his" performance, he consistently thought about what "he" was going to be doing next in the dance - and how, and he could never again dance that beautiful dance. ------------------------------------------ **** On the subtlety of seeing....so simple, but no understanding. Whatever appears as a conditioned reality, arises and falls away in split seconds - that's why there's no understanding. No one can own anything - gone completely. ------------------------------------------- Howard: But there *can* be understanding. It doesn't arise, however, only by study, but by a multiplicity of conditions. ------------------------------------------ **** - Qu about intellectual understanding and restructuring or thinking in a different way. A: Right understanding of whatever appears, not just imagining or thinking. Become acquainted to what is seen. Who is your friend? What is there? Only visible object. There is no friend - (we're) used to taking (objects) for something all day. -Qu about thinking of my frined. A: So natural, don't push it away. It's a hard 'word' to not do anything. 'I' again if you think there should be less thinking. ***** -Qu about meditation. A: No one understands meditation. If you sit for two hours, no understanding for two hours. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I find that hilarious. If one truly meditates and doesn't just enter a trance-of-stupidity or go to sleep, there most assuredly is understanding. She's wrong that no one understands meditation. I think she is projecting. ----------------------------------------------- Qu about observing the mind. A: Where is the mind to be observed now? ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Ah, so don't be mindful of namas, don't engage in introspection. (What Buddhadhamma is that?) ----------------------------------------------- Qu: It doesn't make sense to discuss and do nothing. A: Where is the mind? Qu: All over the place? A: Where is it now? One should be very careful because dhammas look alike but are not the same. Is calm wholesome or unwholesome? What we take for calm without understanding is attachment. People (also) take concentration for awarenesss and live without understanding of realities. **** - Qu about atoms A: Groups of rupas which stay only for 17 moments of citta, arising and falling away completely. *** We think we have lots of possessions such as a house, cars etc, but actually, nothing. After death comes, who can be that personality again? Anattaness. All about now! *** - Qu about sense of urgency, samvegga A: Who is concerned or wants to develop it? - Qu about making the most out of life A: (What about) seeing the benefit in developing understanding gradually. You don't have to ask 'how much I know'! What about the understanding of seeing? Qu about how the eye-door seems harder than the body-door A: Selection again! Who selects? Wanting to have urgency, not understanding reality. How can it be urgent? Easy to go wrong because of ignorance and clinging to 'I'. The teaching is for the elimination of wrong view and the idea of self. At the moment of gradually understanding reality, that is the urgency. Qu about getting older A: Not understanding. Clinging to self. **** Qu about the bodhisatta and his vow. A: If there's any idea of control it's just (wrong) thinking. Discussion on the conditions. **** Qu about Sanna - marking and remembering. 2 aspects of the same function? A: Yes. **** Qu about suttas re 'what one intends (ceteti)....' as in SN 38 (8), #83384, the significance, accumulations etc, basis (as discussed by Scott & Tep) A: Not being forgetful, understanding reality appearing now **** Qu about sutta re kusala as condition for pain and grief, as in MN46, #83871, also in Vism re insight as a condition of dosa (as discussed by Alex & me) Attachment to wholesome states, to insight leading to sorrow when it doesn't arise. Also can be scary to give up idea of self and so on because of clinging to realities as self. No more - no friend, no family, no one - scary. **** Qu about sutta on carelessly x 5, AN 5s, 'The confounding of Saddhamma, #83881 as quoted by Nina. A: Carelessly if there is the idea of doing something because doesn't understand anatta. What is conditioned now? The hard part is doing nothing! Reality is easy to know if you think it doesn't take long to know! The idea of doing something - careless Understanding dhamma - carefully considering, not careless. Carefulness - not just assuming we've heard enough. **** Metta, Sarah ================================== A final comment, Sarah: Most of Khun Sujin's questions and answers are "Zen-master cryptic," a style of communication that seems to imply that she is bestowing great wisdom from on high. But that manner of presentation simply makes her teachings unclear as far as I'm concerned. She may well hold views that are very different from what they seem to be, even views that would hold much appeal for me, but her mode of communication serves as a nearly opaque filter, as I see it, and it suggests an attitude of conceit to me, which I think is most unfortunate, as many have said that the opposite is the case. With metta, Howard #84808 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] eCard from Bangkok - Sunday upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/15/2008 9:46:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard > P. S. With regard to synesthesia, my impression from very brief reading > about it is that it is considered to be an actual phenomenon by medical people. > My thoughts on it, however, are that when one, for example, "sees sounds," > what happens is that a sound is heard in the usual way (via the ear door), and > this hearing is immediately followed by "seeing" via the mind door. Based on what you say here, I would guess that the "seeing" via the mind is just a kind of thinking with visual concepts as object (i.e., no actual visible object involved). In which case, the "seeing" is only a strong form of mental proliferation. Is that how you see it? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: My guess is that the "seen colors" are mentally concocted, much like the colors "seen" while dreaming, and that there are no actual visible objects involved. ----------------------------------------------- Jon ======================== With metta, Howard #84809 From: "connie" Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:37 am Subject: Perfections Corner (123) nichiconn Dear Friends, Chapter One continues: We read further on in the Commentary: "In detail, to those whose minds are disposed towards the enlightenment of disciples (saavakabodhiyam adhimuttacittaanam), he gives a discourse establishing and purifying them (in progress towards their goal) by elaborating upon the noble qualities of whichever among the following topics is appropriate: going for refuge, restraint by virtue, guarding the doors of the sense-faculties, moderation in eating, application to wakefulness..." One should know the degree of one's understanding. As we read, the Buddha gave a discourse in detail to those whose minds were disposed towards the enlightenment of disciples, he gave a discourse establishing and purifying them (in progress towards their goal) by elaborating upon the noble qualities as was appropriate to them. Those who want to develop satipa.t.thaana, to develop right understanding of the characteristics of the dhammas that are appearing, and to develop the perfections in daily life, are already disposed towards the enlightenment of disciples, and that means that they go for refuge to the Triple Gem, that they observe siila, guard the doors of the sense-faculties, are moderate in eating and apply themselves to wakefulness and energy, time and again. We should develop the perfections together with satipa.t.thaana, life after life. The Bodhisatta had developed the perfections for aeons to an incomparably high degree. He accumulated the perfection of generosity together with pa~n~naa and all other wholesome qualities which formed together the conditions (as the khandha of formations, sa'nkhaarakkhandha *1) for the realization of the four noble Truths when he attained Buddhahood. The accumulation of the perfection of daana and the other perfections led to this result. *1 Conditioned phenomena can be classified as five khandhas, aggregates: the khandha of physical phenomena, ruupakkhandha, the khandha of feeling, vedanaakkhandha, the khandha of perception, sa~n~naakkhandha, the khandha of formations or activities, sa'nkhaarakkhandha, the khandha of consciousness, vi~n~naa.nakkhandha. The khandha of formations or activities, sa'nkhaarakkhandha, includes all cetasikas other than feeling, vedanaa, and remembrance or perception, sa~n~naa. It includes all akusala cetasikas and sobhana cetasikas. Generosity and also the other sobhana cetasikas such as pa~n~naa and sati, are accumulated together and condition one another so that finally enlightenment can be attained. connie #84810 From: mlnease@... Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) m_nease Hi Sarah (& Phil & all), Thanks for this. It reminds me of how fortunate those of us are who have had the opportunity to hear the Dhamma from Khun Sujin, and especially those who've had the opportunity to hear it first-hand. It's a unique and compelling experience, to say the least. mike #84811 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... In a message dated 4/15/2008 7:51:42 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi TG Thanks for the detailed reply. I note that you feel you are being asked to repeat details already given. So rather than pursue the line I was taking, let me just ask this instead: Is what you are saying about the development of insight based on/covered by the terms suta/cinta/bhavana-based on/cover described in the article you posted) or does it go beyond that in some sense? Thanks Jon ............................................ Hi Jon I think the article covered it pretty well. There are various specific ways to consider insight, but I include the whole range of insight when dealing with the term, unless otherwise specifying. Basically, that includes any type of knowledge or awareness, whether direct or inferential; of conditionality (conditional relations), impermanence, affliction, and nonself. Insight does not merely "see states as they appear," but sees "the nature" that "underlies" the appearance. I would say that this vision of insight is in full compliance to the way the Suttas present the Dhamma. It is this ability to see "through" the appearance of phenomena that is insightful. It is this ability that allows the mind to recognize that whatever object is cognized is empty of anything of "itself." It has no essence of its own. It is merely conditionally relative and continuously altering in conformity to conditional circumstances. TG #84812 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:03 am Subject: Re: Jhana requires panna! (B-2) walterhorn Jon, I'm happy to continue this, but I've been thinking that maybe it would be better to do so off list. I'm a little uncomfortable continuing to post the sorts of comments I have been making. No one has complained, but I nevertheless feel like I'm being unpleasantly presumptuous: I don't want to be seen as suggesting any sort of alternative to the views so many people come here to study. Not only am I not any sort of expert in Buddhism, my philosophical positions aren't particularly to be followed or trusted either. So when I say, "I think so-and-so," I'm just saying what I happen to currently believe based on my own studies. If I should then hear that some position I've defended may differ from one espoused in some Sutta, I just feel...inappropriate. I therefore feel that this isn't the place for me to be discussing matters in my way. Does that make any sense? Anyhow, please feel free to email me if you like. All best, Walto --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Walto > > > Building up even a single tree out of "phenomenal objects of sense" > > has been a program of various philosophical schools since Berkeley > > (in the 18th Century). Nobody's been able to do it. Not Mill, the > > Compte positivists, not the Husserlians, not the Wittgensteinian > > logical empiricists, nobody. > > I think what is being proposed is that when there is the idea of, say. > a computer being seen and touched, as when writing or reading a > message, the reality is in fact the experiencing of visible object > (through one particular sense-door) and the experiencing of hardness > (through another), and a lot of mental activity resulting in the idea > of "computer". > > The question is simply whether such a description is consistent with > our experience of the present moment and, if not, where the > inconsistency lies. > > > It's a picture, no doubt, but there's quite a bit of what might be > > called "hand-waving" going on there. When have you got an actual > > door? In my view the door is there without any "sense-door > > experiences" and if an epidemic were to whisk us all away tomorrow, > > there'd still be that stubborn door. > > Sorry, but I haven't caught your drift. Would it be possible to state > more plainly what you are saying about sense-door experiences? Thanks. > > > I can see why that would be confusing. I was focussing on > > the "mere": I'd say that the data of our senses actually ARE things > > like doors. So there aren't any "mere sense data" just, you know, > > ordinary objects and 'perceivings' of them. These perceivings, in > > my (realist) view, aren't of phenomena, ideas, or anything misty > > like that, but of doors, trees, people, etc. They may be erroneous, > > of course. > > Let's replace "mere" by "actual". Are you saying there is no actual > sense-data experienced by the senses (visible object through the eyes, > audible object through the ears, etc)? > > > Again, I was reiterating that the 'wonderful' thing about mental > > acts is that they can be, indeed usually are, OF non-mental things. > > Er, is that all? Please develop this line of thinking further so that > I can understand better its relevance. Thanks. > > Jon > > PS Thanks for the modus ponens, modus tollens explanation. That part > I did manage to get! > #84813 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] eCard from Bangkok - Sunday jonoabb Hi Howard > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My guess is that the "seen colors" are mentally concocted, much like the > colors "seen" while dreaming, and that there are no actual visible objects > involved. > ----------------------------------------------- Then we're in full agreement on this one! Jon #84814 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:56 pm Subject: Re: Jhana requires panna! (B-2) jonoabb Hi Walto Understand completely, and thanks for expressing your concern. You're very welcome to stay, as long as you're happy to accept that for most of us here there's a respect for the teachings of the Buddha, based on our limited understanding of them to date, that will mean we participate in such a discussion other than as just a stimulating exchange of philosophical positions. That said, we welcome any genuine querying of (our understanding of) the teachings and its positions. So please feel free to continue, but expect to be asked to justify any position you may take as against real-time experience ;-)). Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Walter Horn" wrote: > > Jon, > > I'm happy to continue this, but I've been thinking that maybe it > would be better to do so off list. I'm a little uncomfortable > continuing to post the sorts of comments I have been making. No one > has complained, but I nevertheless feel like I'm being unpleasantly > presumptuous: I don't want to be seen as suggesting any sort of > alternative to the views so many people come here to study. Not only > am I not any sort of expert in Buddhism, my philosophical positions > aren't particularly to be followed or trusted either. So when I > say, "I think so-and-so," I'm just saying what I happen to currently > believe based on my own studies. If I should then hear that some > position I've defended may differ from one espoused in some Sutta, I > just feel...inappropriate. I therefore feel that this isn't the > place for me to be discussing matters in my way. Does that make any > sense? > > > Anyhow, please feel free to email me if you like. > > All best, > > Walto #84815 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:38 pm Subject: Friendliness Frees! bhikkhu0 Friends: Friendliness & Goodwill is the Ninth Mental Perfection: Friendliness means Goodwill Friendliness means Kindness Friendliness means Helpfulness Friendliness means Assistance Friendliness means Support Friendliness means Benevolence Friendliness means Concern Friendliness means Care Friendliness means Compassion Friendliness means Cooperation Friendliness means Mutual Aid Friendliness means Mutual Advantage Friendliness means Sympathy Friendliness means Symbiosis Only friendliness can completely relinquish the poison of hate and anger! It's characteristic is promoting other being's welfare, it's function is to do only good, and it's manifestation is kindness, sympathy, & gentleness... The proximate cause of friendliness is seeing the good aspects of things! The proximate cause of understanding compassion is this very friendliness! The Blessed Buddha said about friendliness (MettÄ?): Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the release of mind by universal friendliness; in shining, glowing and beaming radiance, this release of mind by universal friendliness far excels & surpasses them all... What are the 11 Advantages of cultivating such Universal Friendliness? The four Brahma Viharas; The four Divine States: The four Supreme States; The four Infinite States: ‘Friends, eleven advantages are to be expected as effect from the release of mind into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by cultivating amity, by making much of it frequently, by making friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the basis, by persisting on it, by being well established in it as a sublime habit. What are these eleven advantages ? One sleeps Happy! One wakes up Happy! One dreams No Evil dreams! One is Liked & Loved by all human beings! One is Liked & Loved by all non-human beings too! One is Guarded & Protected by the divine Devas! One cannot be Harmed by Fire, Poison, nor Weapons! One easily Attains the Concentration of Absorption! Ones appearance becomes Serene, Calm, & Composed! One dies without Confusion, Bewilderment, nor Panic! One reappears after death on the Brahma level, if one has penetrated to no higher level in this very life! When the mind is released into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by manifesting Friendliness, by cultivating Amity, by frequently making much of it, by making Friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the basis, the medium, the foundation, by persisting in it, by insisting on it, by properly consolidating it, by thoroughly undertaking it, by making it a familiar supreme habit, by so being well established in it, these eleven blessings can be expected…’ Anguttara Nikaya V 342 There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of friendly loving-kindness pervading first one direction, then a second one, then a third one then the fourth one, as below so above, across & all around, everywhere identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is encompassing the whole world with a mind full of friendly loving-kindness, with a mind wide, developed, unbounded, cleared, exalted, pure & bright, free from hate and ill will ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of understanding compassion pervading first the front, then the right side, then the back, then the left side, as below so above, across & all around, all over, far & wide; identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is perfusing the whole universe with a mind imbued with pity, with a spacious mind, a refined mind, infinite, cleared, pure & brilliant, freed from all anger and any trace of enmity ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of altruistic & sympathetic Joy pervading the North, then the East, then the South, then the West, as below so above, across & all around, universally, infinitely; identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is suffusing all galaxies with a mind full of genuine mutual & altruistic sympathetic joy, with an open mind, vast, limitless, purified, cleared, pure & shining, free from aversion and bitterness ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of balanced equanimity pervading first the frontal quadrant, then the right, then the rear & then the left quadrant, as below so above, across & all around; and everywhere identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is permeating the whole world with a mind satiated of balanced equanimity, calmed, with a mountain-like mind, cultivated, endless, cleared, pure & dazzling, freed from any irritation & resentment ...' So too, bhikkhus, others may speak to you timely or untimely, true or untrue, gentle or harsh, beneficial or for harmful, based on kindness or on bitter hate! If they abuse you verbally, you should train yourselves in this way: "Our minds will remain unaffected, we shall speak no angry words, we will dwell friendly and understanding, with thoughts of kindness and no inward anger. We shall remain friendly and beam goodwill towards that very person, and we shall dwell extending it to the entire universe, mentally overflowing, exalted, measureless & infinite in amiability, without any trace hostility nor ill-will." That is how you should train yourselves. Even if bandits were savagely to cut you up, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, one who harbours hate from that account, would not be one who carried out my teaching. Bhikkhus, you should keep this instruction on that Simile of the Saw constantly in mind. Majjhima Nikaya, Sutta 21 Thus he who both day and night takes delight in harmlessness sharing love with all that live, finds enmity with none. Samyutta Nikaya. I 208 When one with a mind of love feels compassion for the entire world above, below and across, unlimited everywhere. Jataka 37 The Bodhisatta once was born as the righteous king Ekaraja. His kingdom was taken by force and he & his son was buried in a pit to the neck... King Ekaraja, however neither resisted nor bore even slight ill will against the invaders. Later he remembered this as his ultimate perfection of friendliness. Ekaraja Jataka 303 For details see: The Practice of Loving-Kindness (MettÄ?): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel007.html The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. Chapter IX. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 On Universal Friendliness: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Metta.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Good-Will_Again.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Bon_Benevolence.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Goodwill_Encore.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Released_by_GoodWill.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/All-Embracing_Kindness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Infinite_and_Divine_Classic.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_Buddha_on_Noble_Frienship.htm More on the 10 mental perfections (paramis): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/The_Ten_Perfections.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_10_mental_perfections_(parami)_in_three_le\ vels.htm Friendliness Frees! Quite Cordially, Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #84816 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:19 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II buddhatrue Hi Jon, It is nice the way you lay things out here: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi James > > > James: Thank you for this explanation, but, again, could you point > > to any texts which state this? > > I'd like to narrow our differences, if possible. Of the 2 statements > I made (set out again below), which do you see as not being consistent > with the Buddha's teaching (and how do you understand the teaching to > be in this regard)? > > The 2 statements are: > (a) all tendencies that arise from moment to moment, whether > wholesome or unwholesome, are accumulated in the succeeding moment of > consciousness (and thereafter lie latent except when there is occasion > for them to manifest), James: No, this is impossible. We have all lived for countless lifetimes so it would be impossible to accumulate every single tendency from a beginingless beginning. Tendencies which are strong or are strengthened by kamma are carried on, tendencies which are not drop away. This is what the Buddha taught: we can change our tendencies and propensity for insight by following his gradual teaching. and > (b) insight knowledge accumulated in previous lives cannot arise in a > subsequent lifetime unless and until the teaching on insight/the Four > Noble Truths has been heard and understood in that subsequent lifetime > (the only exception to this general rule being a Buddha). James: No, insight knowledge isn't accumulated in previous lives (and you haven't demonstrated any text showing otherwise). The insight of a sotapanna is bound to result in enlightenment within seven lifetimes regardless or further contact with a Buddha or the teaching. It seems Jon, that we are very, very, very different in our understanding of the Buddha's teachings. > > > James: You don't think there are texts which point to the importance > > of jhana for wisdom? > > Just to recap. You originally claimed that there are texts that > support the general proposition that "a person who has attained jhana > would, on hearing the teachings, be able to see dhammas as they truly > are." James: I don't think I phrased it quite like that. I believe I said that those who have attained jhana have "little dust in their eyes", as opposed to sensual householders and ritualistic ascetics. > > I am questioning whether there are such texts (because I do not know > of any). > > As regards the question of "the importance of jhana for wisdom", which > you mention above, there are of course plenty of texts that describe > the attainment of enlightenment in circumstances where that > enlightenment was preceded by jhana. But these texts do not state or > point to jhana as a prerequisite for insight/enlightenment in all > cases, and I know of no texts that do. James: What?? The Buddha's very first sermon states the necessity of jhana for insight/enlightenment. You know, the Noble Eightfold Path? > > Jon > Metta, James #84817 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:02 am Subject: City of Wet Angels 2 gazita2002 hello dsg. the intensive dhamma study sessions have come to an end, so has Songkran BTW no more water bombing, however today there was a big downpour of rain. So still conditions to get wet :-) There were 2 monks at the Foundation on the last day, and it was an opportunity for me to consider some rules of the Patimokkha. I was aware that a monk should not be alone with a woman in a room, or a secluded place, however if that situation should happen by chance, he should speak no more than 6 words to her. It could be said that living the holy life is only a moment of kusala citta. I learnt a little more about virati, the 3 abstensions, from wrong speech, wrong bodily action and wrong livelihood. If virati cetasika does not arise then there can be no abstension from wrong doing. Who can make virati cetasika arise? Who can make seeing consciousness arise? Coming away from seeveral days of sharing Dhamma discussion has given me more confidence and joy in the great wisdom, compassion and metta of the Buddha. The path leading out of samsara is momentary kusala citta that must be accompanied by panna. Panna has to start somewhere and where else but here and now - as kusala citta accompanied by panna cetasika. Who can make kusala citta with panna arise now? No.one because in reality, there is no-one who can do anything. The truth of Buddha's teaching is not easy to grasp, but ' we' can begin now with a little right understanding. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #84818 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:19 am Subject: e-card from Sunday's discussion in Bangkok with A. Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Howard & All, Sunday's discussion (April 13th) with Qus from Ven P, Nina, RobK, Ken H, Ivan, myself and others Some of my notes.... [Let me stress that the cryptic nature of them says more about my interest and note-taking than anything else! Sometimes, like at KK, I don't make any notes:-)] Ven P on Saturday's discussion: "The most valuable dhamma discussion I've ever had." Comment about having only slept for 2 hrs, feeling agitated, then reading the book 'Metta' by A.Sujin. Qu about if agitated or studying the dhamma, kusala or akusala. A: No rule. Reading the map, must be understanding, otherwise it's a story about the citta. One reality to another to build up the idea of no self, just different characteristics. **** Qu on vitakka and vicara A: One holds the glass and the other helps! *** Qu about L. feeling upset when he doesn't understand a sutta. A: We think we can get a lot. Whenever we're discouraged, it indicates the clinging to self. How great (it is) to have the opportunity to hear a little. This is the way to eliminate attachment. ***** Qu about when the mind is very agitated or disturbed. A: Idea of self Qu about whether there should be meditation first to calm it down A: To do is different from understanding the nature of reality. It's gone already, (it's) very short, before there's the idea of "I will do something". Study - not for oneself to have peace of mind - but to understand reality. (Otherwise) it's study for themselves, not to understand reality as not-self. When there's no understanding, there's the desire to do something instead of understanding the reality that's gone already. **** Qu about how there was a lot of 'energy which could go either way' that morning. A: Right or wrong thinking? Do not do anything. There were conditions to wake up, to see, to think. Whether there's any understanding or not, seeing is not in anyone's control. More understanding of anatta doesn't hurt or harm. It's the building up of understanding. Qu about the restlessness being persistent. A: All not self. Whatever appears. Qu: It means to be observing? A: Who is observing? Qu: Mind... A: There is attachment. Qu: Agitation A: Real, conditioned... Qu: Nothing done... A: No, completely conditioned and passes away with or without understanding. Qu: Now (there's) agitation A: Even the understanding of agitation is conditioned. ( It) points to the development of understanding more and more. (Otherwise) it (all) just concerns oneself. (We) just put a label (on it), but it's still mine. (We) can say it's akusala cetasika, but it's me. 'What can I do about it?'. It's just naming and labelling it, but not understanding of the cittas and cetasikas as not self. Is the aim to be calm or to understand reality as it is. (There's) nothing that belongs to self. All (dhammas) are conditioned to arise. **** Qu: Something has to be done. A: Who can do? Qu: But how does understanding arise without training and habit? A: Without hearing, considering, just training? ***** Qu about 'effort'. A: Viriya - that which supports the cetasikas, like the post/pillar of the house. (We) cannot do anything. Understand it as it is, precisely. It's not 'I can do it, I can make it'. Not self, just a reality. Does effort arise now? At the moment of thinking? At each moment of thinking, there's effort. Who can do that? Who can control it? Viriya cetasika with all cittas (apart from the 10 dvi-panca vinnana cittas) in the sense-realm. It arises with only 2 kinds of ahetuka citta - manodvaravajjana and hasituppada cittas (the 'smiling' kiriya citta of the arahant). **** Qu about dreams and nimitta A: Thinking about nimitta. What is real now? **** Qu about levels of panna A: Understand moments with and without awareness. The teaching is to eliminate wrong view and ignorance, not to gain anything. **** Qu about the ti-lakkana and how they are said to be concealed. see #83487, i.e characteristic of impermanence does not appear owing to not penetrating rise and fall concealed by continuity (santati) etc. There is continuity, but no posture? A: All 3 refer to concepts. No gap, rise and fall not known. In reality there's no body. The body is a concept about self. The whole, (all the) rupas are taken as body. Groups of rupas in the body are conditioned by different causes. **** Qu about how it is that the arahant still knows what is beautiful, even though the perversion of the foul as beautiful has been eradicated. A: What is beautiful is still beautiful. It's still known when a pleasant visible object is seen as opposed to an unpleasant one. Subha refers to the attachment to sense objects with or without ditthi. The sotapanna has eradicated the ditthi, but there's till attachment to sense objects. **** Qu about daana as citta and cetasikas, concept vs reality. Taking understanding too far? A: What is too far? **** Comment about the understanding of absolute realities. Now - no people,no thing, no activity - just citta, cetasika, rupa. **** Qu about why the sotapanna doesn't steal? A: That degree of kilesa has been eradicated. [As the idea of self is eradicated and dhammas understood more and more, grosser defilements eradicated.....] *** Qu about Larry's comment "self view is the most subtle of the clingings but the first to be abandoned" #84158. A: The most subtle of the wrong views only. Qu about gross wrong views being eradicated first. No, self view has to be eradicated first. This leads to ideas of God etc. Also, the two kinds of bhava tanha - sassata ditthi (eternalist view) and clinging to becoming. **** Qu about feeling, vedana as used in the passive tense in suttas and Vism, unlike sanna. E.g Mahavedalla Sutta, MN 43 and Vism X1V, 125 "Whatever has the characteristic of being felt should be known." See #83782, #83779 A: (Whatever is said), feeling (vedana) has the characteristic of feeling.... **** Qu about "Bear it brahmin! Bear it brahmin!" from the Angulimala Sutta (#80316 quoted by TG). A: What else should he (the Buddha) say? **** Metta, Sarah p.s Many thanks Howard for your detailed response. ======== #84819 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:40 am Subject: Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (2) sarahprocter... Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Han, > > I agree with everything you point out here: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > > It was rather hard to believe, but it was true. It was > > mentioned in the story exactly what RobertK had said. > > Still I could not take the story as a good example of > > the Perfection of Truthfulness. > > James: Yeah, I agree. To only tell the truth after you are caught > is not the greatest example of truthfulness. That would make the > former governor of NY a pillar of truthfulness. :-) ... S: :-) see #79339 "The recluse thought: 'If I say that I did not indulge in sin, the king would believe me...." Not sure this was true in your other example.... .... >J: "Bhikkhus, I say that for an individual who transgresses in one > thing, there is no evil deed whatsoever he would not do. What is > that one thing? It is this, bhikkhus: deliberately telling a lie." > > There is no evil that cannot be done > By a person who deliberately lies, > Who transgresses in one thing, > Taking no account of the next world. > > James: So, on a scale, telling a lie is the lowest evil deed to be > done. However, telling a lie becomes a slippery slope and lying > leads to more terrible crimes: like killing, stealing, and sexual > misconduct. ... S: good quote, same as in the extract referred to. Not sure this makes it the 'lowest evil deed' however.... Metta, Sarah p.s I've heard no more word from dear Han, so I assume he's staying at the hosptial. ======= #84820 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- colette wrote: > Good Morning Sarah, > > Had to go back and review the context of the thoughts I had when I > encountered the statement "emotional state". Now, when I read the > entire post again I find that it was Phil who raised the issue of a > student at first finding comfort in the emotional state then > establishing a foundation which generates this comfort, PLEASURABLE > ABIDING, of the dharma. Your reply was just now viewed differently, > msg. # 84706, but lets go with your current point of contact with me > today. .... S: Yes. .... > > The issue is that Anatta is being contradicted since I showed > implications of a self. .... S: Yes. .... > > I've recently been encountering several different papers that address > this very issue and know that in my current messy stack of papers > downstairs I have several exact explanations of encounters scholars > have had when confronted by the contradiction of Anatta, maybe even > how the Buddha handled it when confronted by students raising the > issue of obvious contradiction. ... S: I'm glad you're considering what atta and anatta really mean. At this moment, is there the seeing of visible object? Is there the hearing of sound? If there is an idea of something or someone seen or heard, is that atta-view? ... > Thank you for raising the issue and getting me to look back into > things I ran right past. > > Let me get back to ya on this one. ... S: Thank you too. I'll look forward to ya further reflections:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #84821 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandha Yamaka - study reports, pls help me check on my reports. Sadhu sarahprocter... Hi Chew, Thank you very much for your introduction and explanation about the course you've recently attended. It's good to see the interest in the Yamaka, a very difficult text, I believe. Thank you for sharing the comments too. Nina will also be interested to see these on her return, very soon. Metta, Sarah --- Chew wrote: > I am Chew from Penang, Malaysia. I have just attended a 8 days course > (Sunday 9, March 2008 to Sunday 16, March 2008) at Santarama Buddhist > Hermitage, Balik Pulau, Penang, Malaysia. The subject was Khandha > Yamaka and it was conducted by Sayadaw Dr Nandamalabhivamsa. > > This was the first time I studied this subject Khandha Yamaka. I am > doing these study reports and share it with my course-mates and Dhamma > friends. The original Pali text and the english translation are copied > and pasted. The guide part is where I noted it down when I was in the > class. > > I like to study Buddhism. And I like this subject too. > > To share my reports here with two intentions: > 1. Hope that my mistakes in the reports will be corrected. > 2. Share the Dhamma with all my respected Dhamma friends. #84822 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:54 am Subject: Re: Off for a while! hantun1 Dear Sarah, Howard, Mike, Tep, Scott, Jon, Elaine, Sukin, and other sympathizers, I and my wife are very much grateful to all of you for your best wishes for my wife’s recovery. My wife (75 yrs.) never had any heart problem before. But on 12 April 2008, at about 3 p.m. she was suddenly struck by a heart attack. She had very severe chest pain, and her heart was beating out of rhythm. I could not count her pulse because the heart was beating so fast. It was not beating normally, but just fibrillating. There was profuse sweating showing a sign of shock. She could die any minute. I gave sub-lingual anti-angina tablets. The heart beat slowed down a little bit but the pain was still very severe. My daughter telephoned Bangkok Hospital to send an ambulance (phone number: 02-310-3000). The ambulance came quickly with a doctor and paramedics. They had with them oxygen, portable ECG machine and heart medicines. They were trained for such cardiac emergencies, and they were very efficient. They administered oxygen, and other cardiac medicines, and monitored the heart by the ECG machine. My wife’s heart was recorded by the machine as beating about 160 beats per minute. It might have been almost 200 beats per minute at the beginning of the attack. With their first-aid care, the pulse rate came down to about 110, and the chest pain was very much relieved. Only then, the doctor said my wife was fit to travel in the ambulance. When we arrived at the hospital, she was treated at Emergency Room, and then admitted to intensive Cardiac Care Unit (CCU) of Bangkok Heart Hospital, which is situated next to the main Bangkok Hospital. When the condition was improved, at 8 p.m. on 14 April, she was transferred to standard Cardiac ward. On the morning of 16 April, although she was not very well yet, we asked for the discharge and came back home. She will continue the medicines at home, and report back to the Cardiologist on 24 April. At home, my daughter and I are talking care of her, and I will not have enough time to work on internet as before. My wife was born on a Saturday, and she got the heart attack on a Saturday. According to our superstition that was a very dangerous coincidence. But she pulled through. Due to the timely arrival of the doctor and paramedics to my house, the efficient management and treatment by doctors and staff of the hospital, and the best wishes and prayers of my dhamma friends have saved my wife’s life. Thank you very much. With deepest gratitude, Han #84823 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) hantun1 Dear Phil, Thank you very much. She is back at home, but not very well yet. It will take some time for her to recover completely. With metta and respect, Han --- Phil wrote: > HI Sarah and all (p.s to Han) > p.s very sorry to hear about your wife's illness, > Han. #84824 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:49 am Subject: e-card from Monday's discussion in Bangkok with A.Sujin - this moment! sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Monday's discussion (April 14th) with Qus from Ven P, RobK, Maeve, Nina, David, Bob, myself and others Some of my notes ... ***** Qu on right effort A: Whenever an object appears, right understanding knows its characteristic and already there's right effort. Usually we think it's 'I' doing something, but actually it's cittas, cetasikas and rupas in reality. When doing something, there's always the idea of 'I' doing, but actually there must be cittas and cetasikas, otherwise there's nothing at all. Laziness are also cetasikas. If it's 'I' doing something, it cannot condition understanding. If there is attachment, there's not understanding of anattaness, because it's the idea of something. ***** Qu on the Meditator's job, the Burmese method of focus and reactions.... A: One word at a time....'Meditator' - what is this? anatta? Qu about paying attention A: Nothing to do with understanding? Qu: Understanding dhamma vicaya A: What is dhamma vicaya? Qu: A response A: At the moment when panna is there, there is the understanding of reality only. Panna develops. When there is no understanding, is there panna or ignorance? **** Qu on postures A: Contemplate in order to understand what is taken for body or posture. Only thinking. Hardness (experienced).....'my posture' hides the truth. When a characteristic appears, (there's) no idea of 'I' who sits. **** Qu about breath A: It's different from other kinds of tangible object....conditioned by citta. This can only be known at the second stage of insight which understands the conditioned nature of dhammas. The special one -needs great panna to know. As a samatha object, the reality is not known. **** Qu about satipatthana. A: What is sati? What is patthana? Don't just assume one understands satipatthana. For example, when one doesn't spill a drink, is this sati? There are levels of sati. For example, at the moment of dana, but this cannot be known as not self. Sati with any kusala, aware at different levels. Qu about a 'leap of sati', thinking about anatta and insight into anatta. A: 'leap' - what is meant? Conditions. Gradual path.... **** Qu about detachment alongside panna. A: Attachment is the opposite of panna. 'I want to know" - no way to understand absolute reality. **** Qu about visible object (relevant to discussions with Howard re whether it's necessary to know about other visible objects or 'what can be seen' in kalapas, e.g #84526, 84597) A: Just understand what is seen, otherwise it's just thinking about it or attachment. Qu about how the various compositions make colour so different and about kalapas A: Is understanding what is seen is a reality? Otherwise it's attachment, unable to understand. There's no understanding of thinking about it, (such as thinking about) how many colours. It's just what is seen. 'Colour' - the idea of something. Qu about teaching about rupas A: Different kinds of dhamma one cannot understand. Qu about many colours, the study of conditions. A: The usefulness is when there are conditions for right awareness. Qu about how after knowing conditions for rupas to arise, there can be awareness A: For attachment. (Remember) anattaness. Thinking about different colours doesn't help. later... Qu about understanding the details, the kalapas A: (there must be) a very firm understanding of reality. Can there be understanding of reality now? No expectation to hear/read/understand what is heard. Visible object is the condition for seeing to arise. Understand this. There must be a condition for any reality. This doesn't mean that at the moment of seeing, (we) should think of conditions. (We) don't have to mention anything. Visible object just as a reality. (We) cannot be familiar with visible object without awareness. Qu about visible object as an element A: Not just repeating. **** Qu: Where do cittas and cetasikas arise? A: Which one? Qu: Seeing A: A mental reality which sees. **** Qu about kamma, results and accumulations A: Why this one, not the other? Accumulations support it (to bring its result) Seeing now by kamma and pakatupanissaya (natural decisive support condition) *** Qu about Westerners being more head-heavy, 'khit-maak' in Thai. A: You think Thais don't think a lot? Dhamma has no nationality. Is the seeing 'East' or 'West'? Common ignorance. **** Qu about the 'All' and the extract from the Vism, posted by Ken H which includes kasinas in the 'All'. (see #84176) A: Kasinas means 'all', i.e all kinds of hardness, all paramattha dhammas. **** Comment about how thinking of the quiet place or any circumstance hinders the development of right understanding. It cannot give way to right awareness. It has to be natural... **** Qu about list of characteristics of rupas from the Dhsg as posted by Scott. What about sasasava? A: Rupas as object of sasasava cittas. **** Qu about understanding anatta and impermanence. A: When anatta, so dukkha, cannot be controlled. To understand the arise and fall of dhammas, must be understanding of anatta. So troublesome, so bad - an aspect of dukkha. **** Qu about pannindriya (as discussed at length by Tep, Han & Scott, e.g #83807). Can all panna be referred to as pannindriya? A: Indriya has degrees. Panna with right awareness, satipatthana, an indriya. indriya becomes a bala when panna arises and becomes aware of any object. **** Qu about the location of heart-base A: In the 5 khandhas planes it arises. Cittas at heart-base. Rupas arising at moment of patisandhi, inc. heart-base, but no shape, no form of heart (then). Patisandhi kamavacara rupa - rupa conditioned by kamma at moment of patisandhi citta. Whatever is a base for that citta. *** Qu about the Buddha's 'double'. A: Even without the abhinnas, you can make a doll!! Supernatural powers can create visible object, no matter it's called abhinna... (contd next day). **** Qu about renunciation, nekkhama A: Renunciation when kusala, understanding at different levels. **** Metta, Sarah p.s I'm signing off now until I'm settled back in Hong Kong. We leave in the morning. One more set of notes for our last day then. ======== #84825 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Off for a while! sarahprocter... Dear Han, We're both very relieved and happy to hear your wife has had such excellent treatment including your own loving care. Thank you so much for sharing this report with all the helpful detail. We've all been thinking of you. With very best wishes for a full recovery. Metta, Sarah (& Jon) p.s We look forward to seeing you again on our next visit during the last week of August. --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, Howard, Mike, Tep, Scott, Jon, Elaine, > Sukin, and other sympathizers, > > I and my wife are very much grateful to all of you for > your best wishes for my wife’s recovery. #84826 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:20 am Subject: Re: Off for a while! scottduncan2 Dear Han, Regarding: H: "...But she pulled through..." Scott: Best to you and your family, Han. I'm happy things have worked out. Sincerely, Scott. #84827 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Off for a while! hantun1 Dear Sarah and Jon, Thank you once again. My wife is still an “in-patient” at home. Actually she should stay in the hospital for some more days. But if I had stayed longer at the hospital because she stayed there longer, I would become another patient. I look forward to seeing you in August. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > We're both very relieved and happy to hear your wife > has had such > excellent treatment including your own loving care. > Metta, > Sarah (& Jon) > p.s We look forward to seeing you again on our next > visit during the last > week of August. > #84828 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from Sunday's discussion in Bangkok with A. Sujin upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - I'm, inserting just a few comments below, skipping over much, especially items that might evoke further negative assertions. In a message dated 4/16/2008 5:20:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Howard & All, Sunday's discussion (April 13th) with Qus from Ven P, Nina, RobK, Ken H, Ivan, myself and others Some of my notes.... [Let me stress that the cryptic nature of them says more about my interest and note-taking than anything else! Sometimes, like at KK, I don't make any notes:-)] ------------------------------------------------ Howard: "Cryptic is as cryptic does!" (Deep philosophy from Guru Mahadeva Howard. LOLOL!) Just kidding - I do understand that you are attributing the "Zen-master cryptic" flavor of the responses of Khun Sujin's that I picked up on as due to your presentation and not to her. :-) --------------------------------------------------- Ven P on Saturday's discussion: "The most valuable dhamma discussion I've ever had." Comment about having only slept for 2 hrs, feeling agitated, then reading the book 'Metta' by A.Sujin. Qu about if agitated or studying the dhamma, kusala or akusala. A: No rule. Reading the map, must be understanding, otherwise it's a story about the citta. One reality to another to build up the idea of no self, just different characteristics. **** Qu on vitakka and vicara A: One holds the glass and the other helps! -------------------------------------------------- Howard: A good metaphor. ------------------------------------------------- *** Qu about L. feeling upset when he doesn't understand a sutta. A: We think we can get a lot. Whenever we're discouraged, it indicates the clinging to self. How great (it is) to have the opportunity to hear a little. This is the way to eliminate attachment. ***** Qu about when the mind is very agitated or disturbed. A: Idea of self ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that sense-of-self underlies agitation. ------------------------------------------------ Qu about whether there should be meditation first to calm it down A: To do is different from understanding the nature of reality. It's gone already, (it's) very short, before there's the idea of "I will do something". Study - not for oneself to have peace of mind - but to understand reality. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha said "I teach only dukkha and the end of dukkha." But, indeed, wisdom, the direct understanding of what is truly what, is the uprooting sword that cuts out from the roots the weeds that create suffering. ---------------------------------------------------- (Otherwise) it's study for themselves, not to understand reality as not-self. When there's no understanding, there's the desire to do something instead of understanding the reality that's gone already. **** Qu about how there was a lot of 'energy which could go either way' that morning. A: Right or wrong thinking? Do not do anything. There were conditions to wake up, to see, to think. Whether there's any understanding or not, seeing is not in anyone's control. More understanding of anatta doesn't hurt or harm. It's the building up of understanding. Qu about the restlessness being persistent. A: All not self. Whatever appears. Qu: It means to be observing? A: Who is observing? Qu: Mind... A: There is attachment. Qu: Agitation A: Real, conditioned... Qu: Nothing done... A: No, completely conditioned and passes away with or without understanding. Qu: Now (there's) agitation A: Even the understanding of agitation is conditioned. ( It) points to the development of understanding more and more. (Otherwise) it (all) just concerns oneself. (We) just put a label (on it), but it's still mine. (We) can say it's akusala cetasika, but it's me. 'What can I do about it?'. It's just naming and labelling it, but not understanding of the cittas and cetasikas as not self. Is the aim to be calm or to understand reality as it is. (There's) nothing that belongs to self. All (dhammas) are conditioned to arise. **** Qu: Something has to be done. A: Who can do? Qu: But how does understanding arise without training and habit? A: Without hearing, considering, just training? ***** Qu about 'effort'. A: Viriya - that which supports the cetasikas, like the post/pillar of the house. (We) cannot do anything. Understand it as it is, precisely. It's not 'I can do it, I can make it'. Not self, just a reality. Does effort arise now? At the moment of thinking? At each moment of thinking, there's effort. Who can do that? Who can control it? Viriya cetasika with all cittas (apart from the 10 dvi-panca vinnana cittas) in the sense-realm. It arises with only 2 kinds of ahetuka citta - manodvaravajjana and hasituppada cittas (the 'smiling' kiriya citta of the arahant). **** Qu about dreams and nimitta A: Thinking about nimitta. What is real now? **** Qu about levels of panna A: Understand moments with and without awareness. The teaching is to eliminate wrong view and ignorance, not to gain anything. **** Qu about the ti-lakkana and how they are said to be concealed. see #83487, i.e characteristic of impermanence does not appear owing to not penetrating rise and fall concealed by continuity (santati) etc. There is continuity, but no posture? A: All 3 refer to concepts. No gap, rise and fall not known. In reality there's no body. The body is a concept about self. The whole, (all the) rupas are taken as body. Groups of rupas in the body are conditioned by different causes. **** Qu about how it is that the arahant still knows what is beautiful, even though the perversion of the foul as beautiful has been eradicated. A: What is beautiful is still beautiful. It's still known when a pleasant visible object is seen as opposed to an unpleasant one. Subha refers to the attachment to sense objects with or without ditthi. The sotapanna has eradicated the ditthi, but there's till attachment to sense objects. **** Qu about daana as citta and cetasikas, concept vs reality. Taking understanding too far? A: What is too far? **** Comment about the understanding of absolute realities. Now - no people,no thing, no activity - just citta, cetasika, rupa. **** Qu about why the sotapanna doesn't steal? A: That degree of kilesa has been eradicated. [As the idea of self is eradicated and dhammas understood more and more, grosser defilements eradicated.....] *** Qu about Larry's comment "self view is the most subtle of the clingings but the first to be abandoned" #84158. A: The most subtle of the wrong views only. Qu about gross wrong views being eradicated first. No, self view has to be eradicated first. This leads to ideas of God etc. Also, the two kinds of bhava tanha - sassata ditthi (eternalist view) and clinging to becoming. **** Qu about feeling, vedana as used in the passive tense in suttas and Vism, unlike sanna. E.g Mahavedalla Sutta, MN 43 and Vism X1V, 125 "Whatever has the characteristic of being felt should be known." See #83782, #83779 A: (Whatever is said), feeling (vedana) has the characteristic of feeling.... **** Qu about "Bear it brahmin! Bear it brahmin!" from the Angulimala Sutta (#80316 quoted by TG). A: What else should he (the Buddha) say? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: More commenting on this would have been useful, IMO. ------------------------------------------------------- **** Metta, Sarah p.s Many thanks Howard for your detailed response. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: :-) ========================== With metta, Howard #84829 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Off for a while! upasaka_howard Dear Han (and all) - I'm so happy and relieved that the critical period has come and gone, and that your wife is far safer now than before. It is certainly wonderful that, as you point out, the emergency medical services and the hospital staff were so good at what they did. You also should be very grateful to your own medical training and knowledge and fast acting. I have no doubt that your quick examination and giving of nitroglycerin (I suppose it was) made an essential difference in the outcome! May she continually improve and flourish! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/16/2008 5:54:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hantun1@... writes: Dear Sarah, Howard, Mike, Tep, Scott, Jon, Elaine, Sukin, and other sympathizers, I and my wife are very much grateful to all of you for your best wishes for my wife’s recovery. My wife (75 yrs.) never had any heart problem before. But on 12 April 2008, at about 3 p.m. she was suddenly struck by a heart attack. She had very severe chest pain, and her heart was beating out of rhythm. I could not count her pulse because the heart was beating so fast. It was not beating normally, but just fibrillating. There was profuse sweating showing a sign of shock. She could die any minute. I gave sub-lingual anti-angina tablets. The heart beat slowed down a little bit but the pain was still very severe. My daughter telephoned Bangkok Hospital to send an ambulance (phone number: 02-310-3000). The ambulance came quickly with a doctor and paramedics. They had with them oxygen, portable ECG machine and heart medicines. They were trained for such cardiac emergencies, and they were very efficient. They administered oxygen, and other cardiac medicines, and monitored the heart by the ECG machine. My wife’s heart was recorded by the machine as beating about 160 beats per minute. It might have been almost 200 beats per minute at the beginning of the attack. With their first-aid care, the pulse rate came down to about 110, and the chest pain was very much relieved. Only then, the doctor said my wife was fit to travel in the ambulance. When we arrived at the hospital, she was treated at Emergency Room, and then admitted to intensive Cardiac Care Unit (CCU) of Bangkok Heart Hospital, which is situated next to the main Bangkok Hospital. When the condition was improved, at 8 p.m. on 14 April, she was transferred to standard Cardiac ward. On the morning of 16 April, although she was not very well yet, we asked for the discharge and came back home. She will continue the medicines at home, and report back to the Cardiologist on 24 April. At home, my daughter and I are talking care of her, and I will not have enough time to work on internet as before. My wife was born on a Saturday, and she got the heart attack on a Saturday. According to our superstition that was a very dangerous coincidence. But she pulled through. Due to the timely arrival of the doctor and paramedics to my house, the efficient management and treatment by doctors and staff of the hospital, and the best wishes and prayers of my dhamma friends have saved my wife’s life. Thank you very much. With deepest gratitude, Han #84830 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Off for a while! hantun1 Dear Howard, I am very grateful to the doctor and paramedics who treated my wife at my house before anybody else. If not for them there was no way that my wife would reach the hospital. I want to let people know that such services are available. Yes, I gave her isosorbide dinitrate (trade name Isordil), which is the same group as glyceryl trinitrate. It was lucky for her that I keep this medicine handy for myself since I had small coronary infarct in 1980’s and subsequent chest pains oft and on. Thank you very much for your kind wishes. Respectfully, Han --- upasaka@... wrote: > > > Dear Han (and all) - > > I'm so happy and relieved that the critical > period has come and gone, > and that your wife is far safer now than before. It > is certainly wonderful > that, as you point out, the emergency medical > services and the hospital staff > were so good at what they did. You also should be > very grateful to your own > medical training and knowledge and fast acting. I > have no doubt that your quick > examination and giving of nitroglycerin (I suppose > it was) made an essential > difference in the outcome! > May she continually improve and flourish! :-) > > With metta, > Howard #84831 From: "connie" Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:40 am Subject: Perfections Corner (124) nichiconn Dear Friends, The chapter on generosity continues: We read in the Commentary about the Bodhisatta's accumulation of the perfection of giving: "When he gives a material gift, the Great Man gives food, thinking: 'May I, by this gift, enable beings to achieve long-life, beauty, happiness, strength, intelligence, and the supreme fruit of unsullied bliss.' He gives drink, wishing to allay the thirst of sensual defilements; garments to gain the adornments of shame and moral dread and the golden complexion (of a Buddha); vehicles for attaining the modes of psychic potency and the bliss of nibbaana; scents for producing the sweet scent of virtue; garlands and unguents for producing the beauty of the Buddha-qualities; seats for producing the seat on the terrace of enlightenment; bedding for producing the bed of a Tathaagata's rest; dwellings so he might become a refuge for beings; lamps so he might obtain the five eyes *2. He gives visible forms for producing the fathom-wide aura (surrounding a Buddha); sounds for producing the Brahmaa-like voice (of a Buddha); tastes for endearing himself to all the world; and tangibles for acquiring a Buddha's elegance. He gives medicines so he might later give the ageless and deathless state of nibbaana. He gives slaves the gift of freedom so he might later emancipate beings from the slavery of defilements. He gives blameless amusements and enjoyments in order to produce delight in the true Dhamma. He gives his own children as a gift so that he might adopt all beings as his children by granting them an ariyan birth. He gives his wives as a gift in order that he might become master over the entire world. He gives gifts of gold, gems, pearls, coral, etc. in order to achieve the major marks of physical beauty (characteristics of a Buddha's body), and the gifts of the diverse means of beautification in order to achieve the minor features of physical beauty. He gives his treasuries as a gift in order to obtain the treasury of the true Dhamma; the gift of his kingdom in order to become the king of the Dhamma; the gift of monasteries, parks, ponds, and groves in order to achieve the jhaanas, etc.; the gift of his feet in order that he might approach the terrace of enlightenment with feet marked with the auspicious wheels; the gift of his hands in order that he might give to beings the rescuing hand of the true Dhamma to help them across the four floods *1; the gift of his ears, nose, etc. in order to obtain the spiritual faculties of faith, etc.; the gift of his eyes in order to obtain the universal eye; the gift of his flesh and blood with the thought: 'May my body be the means of life for all the world! May it bring welfare and happiness to all beings at all times, even on occasions of merely seeing, hearing, recollecting, or ministering to me!' And he gives the gift of his head in order to become supreme in all the world." *2 These five eyes are the fleshly eye, the divine eye by which he sees the passing away and rebirth of beings, the wisdom eye, by which he sees all dhammas with their characteristics and their conditions, the Buddha-eye, by which he sees the dispositions of beings and the maturity of their faculties, and the universal eye, his knowledge of omniscience. *1 Floods, oghas, are sensual desire, desire for existence, wrong views and ignorance. All his deeds of generosity contributed to his realization of the four noble Truths when he became the Sammaa-sambuddha. We read further on about the gifts of the Bodhisatta: "The gift of sounds (sadda daana) should be understood by way of the sounds of drums, etc. It is certainly not possible to give a sound as one gives a cluster of lotuses, tearing it out by its bulbs and roots and placing it in the hands. But one gives a gift of sound by giving its base. Thus he makes a gift of sound by presenting a musical instrument, such as drums or tom toms, to the Triple Gem." connie #84832 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:21 am Subject: Metta, Ch 1, no 8. nilovg Metta, by Acharn Sujin Boriharnwanaket. Dear friends, Another questioner: If one thinks that one must recite in order to develop mettå there will not be any result, because one has wrong understanding about the development of mettå. Its development will only be successful if one practises mettå in the situation of one’s daily life. Since a year or two I have the feeling that I have more mettå than before, and that is only due to Khun Sujin’s lectures about Dhamma I listened to. I always think now of doing things for the benefit and happiness of others, no matter whether it is a small matter or something more important. I feel that when sati arises the citta is gentle. When we abstain from killing mosquitos or help other beings who are in trouble there is mettå. It happened that at first I did not want to make an effort to help other beings, but later on I could do it, because I considered their benefit and happiness. Sometimes people sell things I do not want to buy, but I still buy them because mettå arises. I do not buy them because I wish to have them or I need them. I think of Khun Sujin’s words, “It does not matter whether we do a lot or just a little for someone else, but we can consider his benefit and happiness.” Whenever I think of these words kusala citta with mettå can arise. Khun Sujin: Anumodanå. This is the practice of the Dhamma, it really is the development of mettå. The Påli term for development is “bhåvanå” and this literally means: to make become more, to cause to arise often, time and again. Development is not reciting texts with the expectation that as a result a high degree of calm, even absorption, jhånacitta, will arise. There should be mettå in our daily life. We may, when we are alone, recite texts about mettå many times, but when we are in the situation of our daily life mettå may not arise. The real development of mettå is done through the practice, through our behaviour in the different circumstances of daily life, when we are in the company of other people. ****** Nina. #84833 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:26 am Subject: Thank you. nilovg Dear friends, I want to thank Howard, Larry, Phil, Khun Chew, Dieter, Scott, Mike and James for their kind wishes on my birthday. And I thank all my friends in Bangkok for their kindness, making it a wonderful day. Nina. #84834 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandha Yamaka - Study Report 23 nilovg Dear Khun Chew, thank you for your report, I am very interested in this subject. Nina. Op 15-apr-2008, om 12:17 heeft Chew het volgende geschreven: > Pali Text: > Sa~n~naa sa~n~naakkhandhoti? di.t.thisa~n~naa sa~n~naa, na > sa~n~naakkhandho. #84835 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:52 pm Subject: Even is Equanimity! bhikkhu0 Friends: Balanced Equanimity is the Tenth Mental Perfection: Equanimity characteristically induces & promotes impartial neutrality... It's function is to look upon things with an even unreactive indifference! It's manifestation is the gradual stilling of both attraction & repulsion.. It's proximate cause is seeing, that all inherit the results of their actions. It's effect is utter purification & perfection of all other mental qualities, by ending both discontent & delight, thereby providing the necessary equal calm required for their complete assessment & accomplishment. Equanimity means Unaffectable.. Equanimity means Unprovokable.. Equanimity means Undisturbable.. Equanimity means Unexcitable.. Equanimity means Imperturbable.. Equanimity means Disengaged.. Equanimity means Disentangled.. Equanimity means Detached.. Equanimity means Immovable.. Equanimity means Unbeatable.. Equanimity means Untemptable.. Equanimity means Wholly Immune.. Equanimity means Indifferent.. Equanimity means Impartial.. Equanimity means Unbiased.. Equanimity means Disinterested.. Equanimity means Balanced.. Even like a smiling mountain! Cool Calm is the ultimate Balm! The Threefold Equanimity (UpekkhÄ?): If Indifferent towards both: Internal states & external phenomena, Living beings & lifeless things, Past, present & future events, How can one be hurt, upset, disturbed or distressed ? Calm is his mind. Calm is his speech. Calm is his action. So is the Tranquility; So is the Equanimity; of one freed by the Insight of right Knowledge. Dhammapada 96 Although a man is richly dressed and adorned, if he is in peace, at ease, in equanimity, calmed, composed, controlled, celibate and harmless towards all beings, then verily he is a Holy One, a recluse, a sage ... Dhammapada 142 Equanimity towards one's own internal states - that is indeed a link to Enlightenment. Equanimity regarding external phenomena & conditions - that is indeed also a link to Enlightenment. Samyutta Nikaya V Bojjhanga-samyutta. Such noble friend finally develops the link to awakening that is Equanimity during Awareness of in-&-out breathing, which protect against damaging mental states, tends to detachment, to ceasing, tends to release & culminates in complete self-surrender... If, friends, Awareness of in-&-out breathing, is so cultivated and so made much of, it is indeed of great fruit, of great advantage! One whose Awareness of breathing in-&-out is perfected, well developed, and gradually brought to refined growth thus, according to the teaching of the Buddha, such one illuminates the entire world, just like the full moon freed from clouds. Samyutta Nikaya V Anapana-samyutta. The Blessed One once said: Now how, Ananda, in the discipline of a Noble One is there the unsurpassable development of the senses? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, or what is disagreeable, or what is both agreeable & disagreeable. He recognizes that: This agreeable thing has arisen in me, or this disagreeable thing... or this both agreeable & disagreeable thing, has arisen in me: And that is constructed, conditioned, coarse & dependently co-arisen! But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, namely even & equal equanimity! Instantly, that arisen agreeable or disagreeable thing ceases, and Equanimity takes it's calm stance! Just as a man with good eyes, having closed them, might open them; or when open, might close them, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, Equanimity make whatever arisen agreeable thing... or disagreeable thing... or both agreeable & disagreeable thing cease right there, and Equanimity takes it's even stance! In the discipline of The Noble One, this is called the unsurpassable development of the senses with regard to visible forms cognizable by the eye. Similar is the supreme development of the other senses. MN 152 With the fading of rapturous joy, he remains in equanimity, aware & alert, still physically sensitive to bodily pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare: 'In aware Equanimity, one abides in pleasure...' With the stilling of pleasure & pain as with the earlier disappearance of elation & frustration, he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: sole Awareness purified by equanimity, - neither pleasure nor pain - This is called right concentration... The elimination of both sensual desires & of discontent, the ejection of laziness, the calming of all regrets, just this pure Equanimity being aware of all mental properties exactly at the moment they appear: That I call the direct knowledge of release the breakthrough from ignorance. Sutta Nipata V 13: Udaya's Questions Equanimity is 'Tatra-majjhattata', which designates the evenly balanced keeping to the moderate middle of all things. It has as characteristic, that it effects the balance of consciousness and mental properties as a single function of single taste, which prevents both overt excessiveness and any lack or insufficiency. Equanimity thereby puts an end to biased partiality by manifesting moderation well within range of the properly reasoned midway. Visuddhimagga XIV The Buddha once explained: I would make my bed in a charnel ground, with a skeleton for my pillow.. And cowherd boys came up and spat on me, urinated on me, threw dirt at me, and poked sticks into my ears! While others, exultant & thrilled brought me offerings of food, caskets of perfume & incense and garlands of flowers! Yet I do not recall, that I ever showed any partiality towards any of them... I was the same to them all! Neither arousing any fondness nor any aversion! This was my ultimate perfection of equanimity... MN 12 Lomahamsanapariyaya The Hair-raising Presentation Cariyapitaka III 15 More on Equanimity (UpekkhÄ?): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Serene_Equanimity_and_Beyond.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Imperturbable_Equanimity.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Unshakable_Equanimity.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Equanimity_Upekkha.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Feeding_Equanimity.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Empty_Equanimity.htm More of the 10 mental perfections (paramis): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/The_Ten_Perfections.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_10_mental_perfections_(parami)_in_three_le\ vels.htm Even is Equanimity! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #84836 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:47 pm Subject: Re: Off for a while! buddhatrue Hi Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > My wife was born on a Saturday, and she got the heart > attack on a Saturday. According to our superstition > that was a very dangerous coincidence. But she pulled > through. Due to the timely arrival of the doctor and > paramedics to my house, the efficient management and > treatment by doctors and staff of the hospital, and > the best wishes and prayers of my dhamma friends have > saved my wife's life. I am very glad to hear that your wife is okay and recovered. You thought very quickly and calmly in giving her the medicine. Though we must all eventually part from loved ones, it is good that you have some more time together. Take care and get some rest. Metta, James ps. Don't feel the need to respond to this post. Just take it easy. :-) #84837 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:33 pm Subject: Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (2) buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Han), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > > Hi James, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > Hi Han, > > > > I agree with everything you point out here: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > > > > It was rather hard to believe, but it was true. It was > > > mentioned in the story exactly what RobertK had said. > > > Still I could not take the story as a good example of > > > the Perfection of Truthfulness. > > > > James: Yeah, I agree. To only tell the truth after you are caught > > is not the greatest example of truthfulness. That would make the > > former governor of NY a pillar of truthfulness. :-) > ... > S: :-) see #79339 > "The recluse thought: 'If I say that I did not indulge in sin, the > king would believe me...." Not sure this was true in your other > example.... James: Here is the full quote from KS's book: The recluse thought: 'If I say that I did not indulge in sin, the king would believe me, but in this world there is no surer foundation than truthful speech. Someone who forsakes the truth cannot attain Buddhahood, even if he sits in the sacred enclosure of the Bodhi Tree. Hence I should only speak the truth. In certain cases a Bodhisatta may destroy life, take what is not given to him, commit adultery, drink strong liquor, but he may not tell a lie, speech that violates the truth." James: I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying this. This is basically saying that lying is the worst crime which one can commit: one could kill a person and still that would be better than telling a lie. What?? You must be kidding me! Just think about it: killing a person is better than telling a lie. Does that make any sense to you? Additionally, the Buddha doesn't say this in any of the suttas. What he says is that telling a lie is a sure way to lead to more serious crimes. He warns that for those who tell lies, there is nothing he/she won't do. Now, does that mean a lie is the worst thing? No, to me it means that a lie is the least crime, which people don't think much about, but the Buddha wanted to warn about it. Additionally, in the Vinaya, sexual misconduct, stealing, and killing are grounds for immediate removal from the Sangha, but lying only has to be of the nature of lying about supernatural states to be grounds for removal, any other type of lying is of a lesser category and punishment. Obviously, the Buddha didn't consider lying to be a worse crime than killing, stealing, and sexual misconduct. And, if anyone who ever lied couldn't become a Buddha then I don't think there would be any Buddhas! Everyone lies at one time or another, especially as children. > .... > >J: "Bhikkhus, I say that for an individual who transgresses in one > > thing, there is no evil deed whatsoever he would not do. What is > > that one thing? It is this, bhikkhus: deliberately telling a lie." > > > > There is no evil that cannot be done > > By a person who deliberately lies, > > Who transgresses in one thing, > > Taking no account of the next world. > > > > James: So, on a scale, telling a lie is the lowest evil deed to be > > done. However, telling a lie becomes a slippery slope and lying > > leads to more terrible crimes: like killing, stealing, and sexual > > misconduct. > ... > S: good quote, same as in the extract referred to. Not sure this > makes it the 'lowest evil deed' however.... James: See my reasoning above. Metta, James #84838 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:11 pm Subject: Re: Sat's e-card from Bangkok - more on anatta rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: >> > The first thing to understand is the term 'dhamma'. It represents all > realities now. They are 'dhamma' because they don't belong to anyone. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > They are dhamma, because they are distinguishable phenomena. It is true > that they are ownerless, but that is not why they are called "dhamma". > ---------------------------------------- Dear Howard One of the meanings of dhamma is that it is without self http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=169 by Nina van Gorkom """"The following meaning of dhamma explained in the Dhammapada- Atthakata, is dhamma as an entity without a living soul (nissatta, nijjiva): "Tasmi.m khopana samaye dhammaa honti, khandhaa hontii"ti (dha. sa. 121) Then, at that time dhammas occur, khandhas occur. aya.mnissattadhammo naama, nijjiivadhammotipi eso eva. this is dhamma without living being (non-substantial), it is also merely dhamma without life. Tesu imasmi.m .thaane nissattanijjiivadhammo adhippeto. As to these, dhamma devoid of a living soul is meant in this case. """"" > > There are ideas about that (visible object) all the time, but actually > there are no people. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I disagree with that. As I see the matter, people are not what > they seem to be, but there are people. > --------------------------------------- People , beings is mere concept useful for designation. However there are in fact and truth no beings. Vajira Sutta BhikkuniSamyutta Vajira Then the bhikkhuni Vajira, having understood, "This is Mara the Evil One," replied to him in verses: "Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view? This is a heap of sheer constructions: Here no being is found. Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word 'chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates are present, There's the convention 'a being.' It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases." Robert #84839 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:59 am Subject: Metta, Ch 1, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, Question: I still think that the reciting of texts on mettå may be beneficial. Reciting is not easy. I may think of people I do not like, such as Mr. X. who had done me wrong in the past, but now, while I develop mettå, I think, “May Mr. X. be happy, may he not suffer any misfortune”. When I recite texts, I do not have to spend any money or make an effort to help someone. I am not ready yet to do these things. Khun Sujin: The reason is that you did not develop mettå gradually, in daily life. Today you do not see Mr. X., but you see other people. Can you find out whether there is mettå now, while you see other people? When one really develops mettå one must know that when there is mettå the citta is free from all that is unwholesome. At such a moment there is no conceit, no idea of making oneself important. Even when we look at other people or think of them, we can do so without looking down on them, without conceit. Mettå can be expressed through the body, even in our gestures, and in our way of speech. No matter with whom we are, sati-sampajañña can arise and we can find out whether the citta at a particular moment is accompanied by mettå or not. We can develop mettå all the time and we should not select the persons towards whom we will have mettå, such as Mr. X. Question: I will start to develop mettå all the time. When I see other people I will think, “May all people be happy, may they not suffer misfortune”. Khun Sujin: Why do you think of all people? Question: When I look at people I see them as a group. Khun Sujin: At this moment you know in theory that there are only nåma and rúpa, no beings, people or self. However, you do not know the characteristics of nåma and rúpa. There is no sati-sampajañña which considers each kind of reality which appears. When the characteristics of nåmas and rúpas are clearly known, as they appear one at a time, mettå can be developed more. Thus, there must be sati-sampajañña which knows the characteristic of the citta when there is mettå for such or such person. Otherwise we could not know whether there is only reciting and thinking of texts about mettå, or sincere mettå for each person we meet. ****** Nina. #84840 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sat's e-card from Bangkok - more on anatta upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/16/2008 11:11:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: >> > The first thing to understand is the term 'dhamma'. It represents all > realities now. They are 'dhamma' because they don't belong to anyone. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > They are dhamma, because they are distinguishable phenomena. It is true > that they are ownerless, but that is not why they are called "dhamma". > ---------------------------------------- Dear Howard One of the meanings of dhamma is that it is without self http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=169 by Nina van Gorkom """"The following meaning of dhamma explained in the Dhammapada- Atthakata, is dhamma as an entity without a living soul (nissatta, nijjiva): "Tasmi.m khopana samaye dhammaa honti, khandhaa hontii"ti (dha. sa. 121) Then, at that time dhammas occur, khandhas occur. aya.mnissattadhammo naama, nijjiivadhammotipi eso eva. this is dhamma without living being (non-substantial), it is also merely dhamma without life. Tesu imasmi.m .thaane nissattanijjiivadhammo adhippeto. As to these, dhamma devoid of a living soul is meant in this case. """"" ================================ I don't take these words as a definition. Dhammas are certainly not-self, but that isn't a part of the definition of 'dhamma'. A dhamma holds its own (or distinguishable) nature, by definition. Persons are anatta also, but they are not dhamma. An apple tree does not have grass growing from it, but that is not part is not part of the meaning of 'tree'. With metta, Howard #84841 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta, Ch 1, no 9. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/17/2008 6:00:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Question: I still think that the reciting of texts on mettÃ¥ may be beneficial. Reciting is not easy. I may think of people I do not like, such as Mr. X. who had done me wrong in the past, but now, while I develop mettÃ¥, I think, “May Mr. X. be happy, may he not suffer any misfortuneâ€?. When I recite texts, I do not have to spend any money or make an effort to help someone. I am not ready yet to do these things. Khun Sujin: The reason is that you did not develop mettÃ¥ gradually, in daily life. Today you do not see Mr. X., but you see other people. Can you find out whether there is mettÃ¥ now, while you see other people? When one really develops mettÃ¥ one must know that when there is mettÃ¥ the citta is free from all that is unwholesome. At such a moment there is no conceit, no idea of making oneself important. Even when we look at other people or think of them, we can do so without looking down on them, without conceit. MettÃ¥ can be expressed through the body, even in our gestures, and in our way of speech. No matter with whom we are, sati-sampajañña can arise and we can find out whether the citta at a particular moment is accompanied by mettÃ¥ or not. We can develop mettÃ¥ all the time and we should not select the persons towards whom we will have mettÃ¥, such as Mr. X. ================================== Here is where right thinking can be useful: One can recall some things about Mr. X. that *are* endearing. One can also consider what things have happened to him that makes him a hurtful person, and imagine oneself having undergone such things. One can also consider, by imagining, the pain and suffering that arises in one who acts out of anger and hatred, anger being like picking up a burning coal to hurl at another, and being burned first (the Buddha's simile). Such thinking and considerations can soften and open the heart. Skillful means! Intentional activities, BTW. With metta, Howard #84842 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:56 am Subject: Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Thanks for the reply. Its hard to know how to respond: Ph: "Thanks for this. I guess I'm having a crisis of faith when it comes to understanding (panna) or something, but I don't believe that we are at all likely to have this tender insight knowledge. I think it's not possible when there is grasping for it..." Scott: When you say 'grasping', do you mean 'lobha' (greed)? Do you mean 'paraamasaa' (attached to or influenced by wrong views)? Or do do you mean 'upaadanaa' (clinging)? Whichever meaning, you are saying that if you want (are greedy for, attached to, or are clinging to) understanding (pa~n~naa) you wont get understanding (pa~n~naa). This is reminiscent of the view that there are no results from deliberate practise rooted in greed or desire - although you are likely not saying this - and I think it is correct. Ph: "But I'm really just floundering around here when I talk about these deep topics. My main concern is not doing things that are harmful to myself and others. Non-harmfulness is the only thing that truly interests me these days when it comes to Dhamma, and I don't think understanding of the characteristics of dhammas is necessary to be able to apply oneself to non-harmfulness. It's all about concepts of people and situations. But that's just me and my sense of where I (so to speak) am at." Scott: As I understand it, avihimsa, along with nekkhamaa and avyapada are the three constituents of samma-sankappa. Samma-sankappa is dependent of samma-di.t.thi, and samma di.t.thi is pa~n~naa. It seems an impossible position to hold to assert that understanding the characteristics of dhammas is not necessary. In order to know whether there is freedom from lobha or raaga or dosa, it is necessary to know the characteristics of these dhammas - it is necessary to know when they have arisen. This knowing of the characteristics of dhammas is, I think, a function of the unbidden arising of the mental factors sati and of pa~n~naa. It is not, in my opinion, a matter of thinking about it. What is it that knows when it is adosa and not dosa, for example? And without this understanding (non-intellectual), how can one know that one's conscious act is truly motivated by avihimsa? Sincerely, Scott. #84843 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sat's e-card from Bangkok - more on anatta nilovg Dear Robert (and Howard), Op 17-apr-2008, om 5:11 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > The following meaning of dhamma explained in the Dhammapada- > Atthakata, is dhamma as an entity without a living soul (nissatta, > nijjiva): > > "Tasmi.m khopana samaye dhammaa honti, khandhaa hontii"ti (dha. sa. > 121) > > Then, at that time dhammas occur, khandhas occur. > > aya.mnissattadhammo naama, nijjiivadhammotipi eso eva. > > this is dhamma without living being (non-substantial), it is also > merely > dhamma without life. > > Tesu imasmi.m .thaane nissattanijjiivadhammo adhippeto. > > As to these, dhamma devoid of a living soul is meant in this case. > """"" > > > > > There are ideas about that (visible object) all the time, but > actually > > there are no people. -------- N: Robert, I am glad you reminded me of the meaning of dhamma. It is not a person, not a thing. You asked me what impressed me most of the discussions, and I could not answer, there were so many impressions. But here is one point. I spoke about seeing colour, and noticing colours even without naming them red, blue, etc. Kh Sujin said: we are so attached to colours, but remember: they have to be known as just a reality. I have heard many times the words: know them as just a reality, just a dhamma, but it becomes more and more meaningful. It can sink in more. I was really impressed by this answer. It can be remembered just now while seeing. All we hear and read has to be applied to this very moment, and it was wonderful to hear this again and again. Nina. #84844 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta, Ch 1, no 9. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 17-apr-2008, om 13:09 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > One can also consider, by imagining, the pain and suffering > that arises in one who acts out of anger and hatred, anger being like > picking up a burning coal to hurl at another, and being burned > first (the Buddha's > simile). Such thinking and considerations can soften and open the > heart. > Skillful means! Intentional activities, BTW. ------- N: It is good to think in a wholesome way about others. I understand that most important is sati and pa~n~naa so that it is known what type of citta is arising: true metta or still a subtle form of akusala we do not notice? Some complacency or conceit about our own wholesome thinking, our own metta we take for self? We are likely to take wholesome thinking for self. In order to develop metta, making it become more, understanding of its nature is necessary. This can only occur at the present moment, with regard to the dhamma appearing now. Nina. #84845 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:04 am Subject: Re: Metta, Ch 1, no 9. walterhorn Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Question: I still think that the reciting of texts on mettå may be > beneficial. > Reciting is not easy. I may think of people I do not like, such as > Mr. X. who > had done me wrong in the past, but now, while I develop mettå, I > think, "May > Mr. X. be happy, may he not suffer any misfortune". When I recite > texts, I do > not have to spend any money or make an effort to help someone. I am not > ready yet to do these things. > Khun Sujin: The reason is that you did not develop mettå gradually, > in daily > life. I don't understand the either-or thinking here. I take it recitations may be useful at certain times to encourage the development of metta at other times: they may keep certain principles in "the forefront" or "at the ready." To deny the usefulness of recitations in this way seems tantamount to denying the usefulness of reading commentaries or thinking about (or posting on the internet!) on this subject. Of course, one could be helping the poor at those times too! Seems to me there could be a 'season' for both.... Best, Walto PS: Happy Birthday! #84846 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 1, no 9. nilovg Dear Walto, thanks for your kind wishes. Op 17-apr-2008, om 16:04 heeft Walter Horn het volgende geschreven: > To deny the usefulness of recitations in this way seems tantamount to > denying the usefulness of reading commentaries or thinking about (or > posting on the internet!) on this subject. Of course, one could be > helping the poor at those times too! Seems to me there could be > a 'season' for both.... > > PS: Happy Birthday! ---------- N: When someone is inclined to recite texts, let him do so. But whatever one is doing, it is beneficial to develop more understanding of the cittas arising at such moments: kusala or akusala? Attachment can slip in at any time. Some people may think that reciting is enough, and they may not know the true characteristic of metta. This is what is emphasized by Kh Sujin. Nina. #84847 From: "connie" Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:02 am Subject: Perfections Corner (125) nichiconn Dear Friends, Ch. 1 continues: One may offer a drum for the benefit of a temple as an offering of sound, because it can be used to announce the time, the hours or the watches (of the day and night) and so on. One may play music as an offering of sound to the Triple Gem, by using instruments such as a drum or tom tom. One may arrange for oneself or for someone else to use an instrument such as a drum, with the intention to give sound as an offering. The Commentary explains further about the ways of offering the gift of sound: "... by giving medicine for the voice, such as oil and molasses, to preachers of the Dhamma; or by announcing a lecture on the Dhamma, chanting the scriptures, giving a discourse on the Dhamma, holding a discussion, or expressing appreciation for the good deeds of others." One may invite people to sit close for a Dhamma discussion or ask others to invite them for this purpose. Also when expressing words of appreciation, anumodana, one can give sound as an offering. When one speaks these words aloud or invites others to join in the expressing of them, one offers the gift of sound. This is a condition for others to also take part in the offering of sound by way of the expression of anumodana. .. to be continued, connie #84848 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:48 pm Subject: Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) philofillet Hi Scott (and Nina, who is quoted halfway through) > > Ph: "Thanks for this. I guess I'm having a crisis of faith when it > comes to understanding (panna) or something, but I don't believe > that we are at all likely to have this tender insight knowledge. I > think it's not possible when there is grasping for it..." > > Scott: When you say 'grasping', do you mean 'lobha' (greed)? Do you > mean 'paraamasaa' (attached to or influenced by wrong views)? Or do > do you mean 'upaadanaa' (clinging)? Whichever meaning, you are saying > that if you want (are greedy for, attached to, or are clinging to) > understanding (pa~n~naa) you wont get understanding (pa~n~naa). This > is reminiscent of the view that there are no results from deliberate > practise rooted in greed or desire - although you are likely not > saying this - and I think it is correct. Ph: I don't think penetrative panna can arise by trying to have it, but there are other more mundane results to such things as meditation, for example (or "meditation" as it is known only at DSG) that don't have to do wtih pentrative panna - I find it helps to condition what I call resilience to objects. When we have been making an effort to establish mindfulness in the body (and our efforts to do so will be rooted in lobha, surely) it leads, I find, to the mind being less eager to rush out after objects. It has a safe haven in which to feed, if you will. This is purely a kind of preventive thing, but still valuable, very valuable for leading to the kind of habits of bdoy, speech and mind within which the deeper understanding can be fostered. Something like that. I say this purely from my own experience of messing about with meditation. If one establishes mindfulness in the body even to a very, very limited degree in the morning, for example, the mind is less prone to devouring things through the sense doors later in the day. I am sure of this and I am *pretty* sure that it has to do with the post that the six animals lie down next to in that sutta. As for what I mean by grasping, I don't know which dhamma it is. Who knows? I don't think at our level of understanding we can know except by speculating based on what we read in texts about deep understanding. But I note what Nina wrote today in another post: "All we hear and read has to be applied to this very moment, and it was wonderful to hear this again and again." How can this not represent a form of lobha, trying to get too much out of abhidhamma, out of the deep texts. If applying-it-to-the-present- moment arises, it arises, it happens. But the above kind of sentence seems guaranteed to condition grasping for insight. For example, "is there seeing now? Study it, or panna cannot develop." It seems so clear to me that that is going to condition trying to have insight. > > Ph: "But I'm really just floundering around here when I talk about > these deep topics. My main concern is not doing things that are > harmful to myself and others. Non-harmfulness is the only thing that > truly interests me these days when it comes to Dhamma, and I don't > think understanding of the characteristics of dhammas is necessary > to be able to apply oneself to non-harmfulness. It's all about > concepts of people and situations. But that's just me and my sense > of where I (so to speak) am at." > > Scott: As I understand it, avihimsa, along with nekkhamaa and > avyapada are the three constituents of samma-sankappa. Samma- sankappa > is dependent of samma-di.t.thi, and samma di.t.thi is pa~n~naa. PH: It is good that you study in these terms. Study the texts, that's good. But doesn't non-harmfulness mean anything more conventional to you? It does to me. It is easy to understand when I am going to, am presently, or have done something to harm myself, or others. It is all understood in conventional terms, conceptual terms (ie about people and situations) at this level of understanding. And it is still hugely beneficial. And then when one studies abhidhamma on top of this (or along with it or whatever) we are always reminded of what the deeper understanding is, the more liberating understanding. We are helping to provide better conditions for that understanding to have a chance to develop, and if it doesn't, fine - at least we have learned (mind has been conditioned) to behave in a way that is less grossly akusala, and we might get another shot in our next lifetimes. The Buddha's teaching is chock full of admonitions/encouragements about behaving in ways that are likely to lead to better destinations. This cannot be denied. (Well, of course it can be denied, but not correctly.) It seems that this is how he taught to householders, certainly Bhikkhu Bodhi (whom I know you have issues with) makes this clear in his introductions to various anthologies. > > It seems an impossible position to hold to assert that understanding > the characteristics of dhammas is not necessary. In order to know > whether there is freedom from lobha or raaga or dosa, it is necessary > to know the characteristics of these dhammas - it is necessary to know > when they have arisen. This knowing of the characteristics of dhammas > is, I think, a function of the unbidden arising of the mental factors > sati and of pa~n~naa. It is not, in my opinion, a matter of thinking > about it. What is it that knows when it is adosa and not dosa, for > example? And without this understanding (non-intellectual), how can > one know that one's conscious act is truly motivated by avihimsa? See above. I do value studying abhidhamma. But I question the wisdom of trying to make it apply to the present moment here and now. I study it more as theory of the deepest currents of Buddhist understanding. It is fascinating, enthralling, beautiful, awe- inspiring. But I keep my distance from wanting it here and now, something like that. I just think "all we hear and read has to be applied to this very moment" is sheer lobha. Give me my people and situations and conventional approaches to avoiding evil and doing good. Maybe I'll feel differently about this in the years to come. In the meantime I will continue to study paramattha dhammas as valuable theory and the deepest representation of the Buddha's incomparable understanding (and that of the arahants who followed in his footsteps.) But I won't try to understand their characteristics here and now. If it happens, fine. But I don't think it will. Metta, Phil p.s I guess I'll leave the last word to you, Scott. #84849 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:56 pm Subject: Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) philofillet H again > I just think "all we hear and read has to be applied to this > very moment" is sheer lobha. And since A.S is so very fond of saying "who meditates" to demonstrate the poor, misguided ways of the self-serving meditator, I will ask "who applies all we hear and read to this very moment." Self, of course, but I think the meditator is in a better position to see that self at work. THose who rely on understanding of paramattha dhammas might (I stress might) be more deluded about how much self is involved in it because there is such an appreciation of the anattaness of it all, etc, the dhammas are so very anatta, aren't they? But our studying of them isn't, I bet. It's about self needing understanding, wanting understanding, craving understanding. I've said this before, but I just can't wrap my head around the notion of someone in this day and age not wanting, wanting, wanting a lot out of Dhamma. But that's maybe because I am such a greedy fellow. Metta, Phil #84850 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) lbidd2 Hi Phil, Phil: "I don't believe that we are at all likely to have this tender insight knowledge. I think it's not possible when there is grasping for it..." Larry: If you correctly recognize grasping as grasping, that is tender insight. If you don't, what is the basis of your opinion? Perhaps this opinion is conditioned to arise by a line of reasoning. If you recognize that conditioned arising, that is tender insight. In either case there is a tiny glimpse that because this dhamma is what it is or arises the way it arises, it can't be "me". That is the purpose of tender insight. Larry #84851 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:06 pm Subject: Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Thanks for the reply. I don't wish to re-enter the pointless debate regarding 'meditation', nor to discuss the merits or demerits of AS. Regarding: Ph: "...But doesn't non-harmfulness mean anything more conventional to you? It does to me. It is easy to understand when I am going to, am presently, or have done something to harm myself, or others. It is all understood in conventional terms, conceptual terms (ie about people and situations) at this level of understanding..." Scott: I'd say it is all thought about, and yes its easy to think about anything. Let's say I don't want to kill a living being. Let's say a mosquito lands on my arm one day while I'm in the midst of a conversation and, automatically, I blow it off instead of just killing it? What do you think happens in a case like this? Sincerely, Scott. #84852 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:14 pm Subject: Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) philofillet Hi Scott (p.s to Larry) > > Let's say I don't want to kill a living being. Let's say a mosquito > lands on my arm one day while I'm in the midst of a conversation and, > automatically, I blow it off instead of just killing it? What do you > think happens in a case like this? Ph: Yes interesting point. Certainly abstention gains steam, one moment conditions the next. So your example would be the best kind of abstention. (I think in abhidhamma terms it would be "unprompted" and therefore stronger or something like that.) But the abstention that involves self clinging to the idea of being a better person or fear of the consequences of bad deeds etc is still valuable, I think. Well, I know it is. :) (Actually, I always have trouble understanding how hiri and otappa can operate with self involved. Who cares about what others think, who cares about the consequences of bad deeds?) But I know what you mean about the really valuable kusala arising on its own. For example, discussing dhamma is kusala. I always vow to take a break to concentrate on other things, but come back again and again, against my will, in a way. so this would be an example of the kind of unprompted kusala you mention above, the unthinking abstention from killing etc. I can think of another example. I vow to wish well to people I cross paths with on my way to the station, and do, or don't. There is a lot of clinging to self involved in this, concern about becoming a person that is kinder and less harmful to others. And I find practicing in this way is really helfpul. But a person comes along on a bicycle, holding an umbrella in the rain, and without thinking or intending (in the conventional sense) to do so, I move aside so she can pass safely in a narrow space on the sidewalk. That was unprompted. Conditioned by the intentional (ceonventionally speaking) metta stuff? maybe, maybe not, who knows... Metta, Phil . #84853 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) philofillet Hi Larry > Larry: If you correctly recognize grasping as grasping, that is tender > insight. If you don't, what is the basis of your opinion? Perhaps this > opinion is conditioned to arise by a line of reasoning. If you recognize > that conditioned arising, that is tender insight. In either case there > is a tiny glimpse that because this dhamma is what it is or arises the > way it arises, it can't be "me". That is the purpose of tender insight. Nicely said, thanks. Metta, Phil #84854 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:40 pm Subject: Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) philofillet Hi again correction : > > (Actually, I always have trouble understanding how hiri and otappa > can operate with self involved. Who cares about what others think, > who cares about the consequences of bad deeds?) Should be "without self" Metta, phil #84855 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:58 pm Subject: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi all, I have just returned from a wonderful trip to Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan. Our local DSG friends and others at the Foundation really are the perfect hosts. Dhamma discussions were great, of course, but so too was the food and conversation. Who would have thought Buddhists could have such a good time? :-) I was mainly content to listen to K Sujin's answers to other people's questions without asking very many myself. Some that I did ask failed to inspire much response. This was one reason to be grateful to people like Ven. Pannabahulo who were always able to set the ball rolling. One of my questions that failed to impress K Sujin was about whether the word 'dana' referred to a concept or a reality. To my mind, if dana was a reality it could only exist for one moment of consciousness. K Sujin seemed to think I was theorising too much. She and others pointed out that the giving of a gift required many cittas. So this has got me thinking. Maybe Howard has been right about along when he has said that my approach was different - more fundamentalist - than the the approaches taken by my fellow 'no- controllers.' I have always claimed to be saying the same as them - albeit in a more simplistic, less technical, way - but maybe I haven't! (!) In any case, I plan to listen more carefully. There seems to be a way of understanding namas and rupas that is, at the same time, not totally dismissive of concepts. Maybe, as Rob K sometimes suggests, I have been missing out on a valuable part of the Dhamma that only conventional explanations can reveal. But, then again, maybe I haven't. Time will tell. :-) Ken H PS: Another of my questions was about the sense of smell. Is there smelling-consciousness at all times of the day - even when we can't notice any particular aroma? The answer, to my surprise, was 'No, there isn't.' I would be interested to hear anyone else's thoughts on this. #84856 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:11 am Subject: Tuesday's discussion with A.Sujin in Bangkok - last day fine-tuning! sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Notes from Tuesday's discussion. (Comments on Phil's letter already given.) Qus from Maeve,Ven P, Rob K, David, Ann, Betty, myself & others Qu: What is sati? A: A moment of being aware of reality (when) usually there's no awareness, e.g. touching, seeing now, but no awareness of any reality. Leading to detachment from the idea of self, because always there's the idea of someone, something, with ignorance. You can ask anyone if (the object is) hard or soft (and they can say), but there's no awareness, no understanding of any characteristic. *** Qu about the meanings of satipatthana A: a) any reality as object b) sati, the cetasika c) the only path as followed by the ariyans **** Qu about right livelihood in suttas A: Conventional terms, but don't leave out samma ditthi, vayama, sati etc Depends on right understanding *** Qu about samma samadhi, role of jhana, Buddha's enlightenment A: Who'd like to follow the Buddha's development? Qu about missing out on the joys of jhana A: Without understanding jhana, can anyone attain it? So everything should be carefully studied. Qu about samma samadhi as defined as 4 jhanas A: For jhana labhi who is so skilled at any time, at any place, who can understand the factors of jhana at anytime. When so skilful, they can arise and there can be awareness of it. Must be detached - not 'my' jhana. Whenever there's desire, there's no kusala Holy life - moment of kusala. Understanding of what can abstain from ill deeds, not self at all. If you don't study carefully, you'll think he taught us to abstain at will. *** Qu about looking away to avoid attachment A: Just wanting to do? Going left or right, which way is kusala....or are both akusala? Just for oneself! "Abstain!" as condition for awareness and understanding. *** Qu about 7 points/conditions to be avoided for development of calm and attainment of jhana as given in Vism (ch 4, 34-42), starting with avoiding "a dwelling where the mental image has not yet arisen does not arise" etc. A: With understanding of what is kusala and what is akusala. Wishing without right understanding is no understanding, wrong from the beginning. **** Qu about kaya-viveka .Previously discussed the Maha Saccaka sutta and viveka, bodily and mental seclusion. Discussed then how all the references to solitude and seclusion are to mental states, not to physical quiet or seclusion. For example, is it quiet now? Is there solitude (seclusion from sense attachments) now? A: 2 meanings.of kaya viveka. If you sit in a quiet place with akusala, not kaya viveka Even if it's kusala, when crowded with people, is it kaya viveka? Kaya viveka does not depend on the place but on the citta But when it grows, to not be crowded, those with such accumulations to be alone, such as Maha Kassapa. So kaya viveka referring (in context) to: a) cetasikas or b) physical seclusion for those with such accumulations, with understanding. *** Qu about body-sense A: Not touched, not experienced. The rupa which is different from the primary rupas or those experienced through the sense doors. Thinking about 'my arm', 'my leg' only. It doesn't help to understand realities. Qu about how the eye-sense is here (in the eye) and not there. A: By thinking or understanding? There's memory about the whole body. We take it for here or there in memory because cittas arise and fall away so fast. Just keeping the idea of 'my body'. There's always the idea of self. Self needs a place. While one sees, there's also the idea of here and there.....'we' sitting or standing, atta sanna. In reality, no lung, no heart.....Only seeing. Nothing is there or is it still there? If you have ribs and lungs, say yes! *** Qu about kaya vinnati and vaci vinnati (bodily and verbal intimation) A: Kaya dvara (body-door) of deeds and actions points to kaya vinnati. It's the intention for meaning conditioned by citta. The rupa follows the citta. If you have the intention to have the body that way, it's kaya vinnati, (not anytime the body moves). It's always the interntion to convey the meaning for yourself or others, to have it do something, e.g kaya dvara (body action) for akusala. You want the body to move with the same meaning. Many kalapas of rupas are conditioned by citta with and without kaya vinnati. Vaci vinnati (verbal intimation rupa) - any speech in same way. Rupa which follows the citta in such and such a manner, falling away with the citta. [Appanihita, non-concrete rupa, which depends on other rupas to arise. ] *** Qu about MN 49 as discussed by Alex, Scott & Tep. See #83642, #78918 Why are breaths mentioned as kaya-sankhara, vitakka and vicara as vaci-sankhara and sanna and vedana as citta-sankhara A: Without breaths no body Without vitakka and vicara, no speech Without sanna and vedana, no cittas. (Just 2 given as examples, doesn't mean the other cetasikas not there). *** Qu about thinking about the dhamma vs understanding. A: Forgetting there's only thinking. Many levels of understanding. Trying to understand by thinking it over, but then no understanding - it's only thinking. *** Qu about sati and the pumpkin metaphor A: Forgetfulness floats on! *** Qu about parato ghosa (speech of another) vs suta-maya panna. A: The same. Suta-maya panna, is panna from hearing Cinta maya panna is panna from considering. [yoniso manasikara may or may not be with panna] **** Qu about past lives, future lives, conditions, pre-determined... A: Who predetermined? Qu about mind made body (mano-maya kaya) and heart-base A: Heart-base is for cittas to arise. No need (in this case) for heart-base. Heart-base is conditioned by kamma, not by citta. *** Qu about the reality which has fallen away or past dhammas as known by the Buddha etc, or future... A: Direct understanding about the reality which appears, not just thinking Is it sweet? Tasting consciousness tastes sweetness. Do you have to say what taste is? *** Qu about 3 kinds of saddha as mentioned by DC in *80469 a) amuulikaa saddha or 'non'-saddha. No Pali ref found, but Ven Dh pointed to Dhp 97 and the use of asaddho, 'without faith' as used in a disparaging way. b) saddha, the cetasika c) aakaaravatii saddha, the saddha of the ariyans **** Qu about satipatthana being one or many moments A: No one can count! *** Qu about nibbana, why it's said if there were no unconditioned dhamma etc, there could not be a release from the conditioned. A: Must be the dhamma which cannot be attached to. *** Comment about 'to do' - no understanding of conditions, of anatta. Just live with more and more understanding, the only way to eliminate attachment. Otherwise, gaining something for oneself, for results....attachment. The only obstacle is not enough panna. How long does it take to form the Himalaya range? (So long) in order to eradicate the anusaya (latent tendencies). *** Comment about Abhidhamma study. Understanding the Abhidhamma texts, can it be the study of Abhidhamma without studying reality now? Otherwise, just names and numbers, like a map. Abhidhamma is not far away from here and now. Seeing is....hearing is....citta, cetasika, rupa.....Every moment is abhidhamma. You don't have to go away to find the Abhidhamma. The meaning of dhamma - you don't have to call it rupa, characteristic of hardness. It's a kind of reality experienced. Abhidhamma is the direct one. **************** Many thanks to all the participants who helped make the discussions so worthwhile. We're now back in Hong Kong. I have my usual fever and respiratory problems from the travel yesterday (as Howard will understand!)and surrounded by laundry while Jon had to go straight into a meeting on return. Still, the discussions and food for further reflection and understanding was priceless and we look forward to seeing anyone else there during the last week of August or possibly next February. Metta, Sarah P.S. Qu (actually on an earlier day) about the passage in Milindapa~nha re the Buddha's injury from a splinter not being due to kamma. See #83201, 83206 A: Must be due to kamma, any body experience due to kamma and accumulations (pakatupanissaya). [Both English translations have the same and so does the Thai version!!] *** I mentioned about sasava.m being used to describe rupas in an earlier summary. See #82943 for context as posted by Scott. *** On one other point, cannot say that ti-lakkhana only fully understood by the arahant. Fully penetrated at stages of insight. *** ========= #84857 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, Azita and other participants. Super to read your reports. Pleas add any further reflections and perhaps you'll encourage others to do the same:-). [A further thought on your surplus Thai baht, Ken....Why not just keep them in a safe drawer for your next visit - perhaps a condition?] Azita (& Ann), enjoy the rest of your stay! Metta, Sarah --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi all, > > I have just returned from a wonderful trip to Bangkok and Kaeng > Krajan. Our local DSG friends and others at the Foundation really > are the perfect hosts. Dhamma discussions were great, of course, but > so too was the food and conversation. Who would have thought > Buddhists could have such a good time? :-) #84858 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) nilovg Hi Phil and Larry, Op 18-apr-2008, om 1:48 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > But I note what Nina wrote today in another > post: "All we hear and read has to be applied to this > very moment, and it was wonderful to hear this again and again." How > can this not represent a form of lobha, trying to get too much out > of abhidhamma, out of the deep texts. --------- N: Phil, you have a point and thank you for reminding me of lobha. I also appreciate very much Larry's answer. We have to take the sutta about lobha as teacher and as pupil, co- resident, very seriously. Lobha always follows us throughout life and also it teaches us. Why do we listen to the Dhamma? The purpose is right understanding of the reality now. There can be a moment of understanding, and then lobha follows, we like understanding so much. Then lobha is the present reality and it can be known as just a dhamma, a conditioned reality. That is the way to know lobha as non-self, not my lobha. So long as the stages of insight have not been reached and the difference between nama and rupa is not yet realized, lobha and other namas are not precisely known as only nama. However, pa~n~naa can begin to know the characteristic of lobha. ------- Phil: I just think "all we hear and read has to be applied to this very moment" is sheer lobha. -------- N: We cannot know the cittas of others. Anyway, cittas arise and fall away so fast. Lobha sneaks in any time, but it can be alternated with kusala citta and understanding. Knowing lobha when it appears, that is the application of the teachings. At the first stage of tender insight nama and rupa that appear are the objects of insight, including lobha. The present object should be faced with right understanding. Just before enlightenment occurs, any reality that appears, including lobha, should be seen as impermanent, or as dukkha, or as anattaa. Nina. #84859 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:04 am Subject: Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Thanks for the reply: P: "Yes interesting point. Certainly abstention gains steam, one moment conditions the next...But the abstention that involves self clinging to the idea of being a better person or fear of the consequences of bad deeds etc is still valuable, I think..." Scott: The example comes from experience - we have a 'mosquito season' here. When this happens it seems to occur for no reason. There is a noticing, sometimes, that no killing occurred. There might be thinking, after, that perhaps there was no killing because I don't want to kill. There is no awareness of intention not to kill. Citta conditions bodily intimation, but which sort of citta? The bite of a mosquito is irritating. What if dosa accompanies citta? Why no killing? I wouldn't be able to say that such an act was, for a certainty, 'the best kind of abstention'. I don't know what dhamma is being developed. What is developed when akusala citta conditions kaaya vi~n~natti (lobha, for example)? I think lobha is developed. Is not killing a mosquito - the action - always kusala? I think akusala can lead to not killing a mosquito; what appears to be kusala to the self interested in being someone who doesn't harm other beings may not be. The not killing at least prevents this sort of akusala kamma from accumulating nonetheless, I suppose. P: "(Actually, I always have trouble understanding how hiri and otappa can operate with self involved. Who cares about what others think, who cares about the consequences of bad deeds?)" Scott: Shame and fear of sin 'with self involved'? This is the whole of the 'religious attitude', Phil. I'd think pure hiri and otappa are not arising most of the time because of thoughts related to self-related shame (what others think) and fear of loss of the love of others. Thoughts of 'I must stop doing such-and-such' or 'I vow to stop doing such and such' or 'I must do more of such-and-such' might stand in the way of sati and pa~n~naa arising. A quiet self-less awareness of a dhamma (kusala or akusala) carries its own calm. P: "But I know what you mean about the really valuable kusala arising on its own. For example, discussing dhamma is kusala. I always vow to take a break to concentrate on other things, but come back again and again, against my will, in a way. so this would be an example of the kind of unprompted kusala you mention above, the unthinking abstention from killing etc." Scott: Well, when one fights one's self, one is always in the midst of some sort of agitation. In Dhamma discussion it seems as if there can be moments of kusala but also moments of akusala. I've learned that most vows are without effect. A good lesson in anatta. P: "I can think of another example. I vow to wish well to people I cross paths with on my way to the station, and do, or don't. There is a lot of clinging to self involved in this, concern about becoming a person that is kinder and less harmful to others. And I find practicing in this way is really helfpul..." Scott: Helpful how? For whom? The vow is just thinking about a certain ideal type of person. What if one's wish to be 'kinder and less harmful' are thoughts the mundane function of which is to repress hostility, of which there is no notice? P: "...But a person comes along on a bicycle, holding an umbrella in the rain, and without thinking or intending (in the conventional sense) to do so, I move aside so she can pass safely in a narrow space on the sidewalk. That was unprompted. Conditioned by the intentional (ceonventionally speaking) metta stuff? maybe, maybe not, who knows..." Scott: Exactly, the act may have been conditioned by a need for self-preservation and followed by self-congratulation, for all one knows... Sincerely, Scott. #84860 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:27 am Subject: Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Hi Ken, > The birthday celebration sounds like a wonderful occasion for a > wonderful woman. I'm glad you are able to be there. Is this your > first trip to Thailand? > Hi Dan, It was my second trip to Thailand, but my first since joining DSG. And, yes, what better occasion to be there than for Nina's 80th birthday! I'm glad we have sorted out the mess I made. We seem to have re- established the position you were taking when you were last posting regularly at DSG (before I misconstrued it). I still can't agree with your theory, however. As I understand the development of insight it proceeds very slowly and surely. Right from the beginning there must be the understanding "this is the teaching of a Buddha." And there has to be detailed study of that teaching. The various points have to be heard, considered and understood over and over again. Slowly, in this way, over many lifetimes - perhaps over the course of many Buddha-sasanas - right understanding develops. So I can't imagine that panna - of the kind that knows paramattha dhammas (either theoretically or directly) - could possible arise without a Buddha's teaching being heard and studied. --------- <. . .> D: > You may altogether reject the possibility of any insight outside the dispensation, and that's fine. I argue that it is very real (that mundane insight is not exclusive), and it is easy to see that if you keep your eyes and ears and mind wide open to the possibility and look to realities rather than models. Why would I do this? 1. It is an exercise in considering the distinction between concept and reality, something that I think is critical; 2. It can help blunt religious bigotry; 3. In my understanding, the models of reality that we construct lag behind our understanding. We may read about and talk about paramattha dhamma this and anatta that, but if it's not rooted in insight, it is useless theorizing. No amount of prescriptive thinking and conceptualization helps at all. But if we hear a description that rings true with a clear moment of insight, the description helps keep us close to further insights. If not, then it does not. --------- The 'models' that we study are actually paramattha dhammas. That is to say, they are concepts of paramattha dhammas. They have to be precise. The more closely they are understood the closer we get to direct understanding. Therefore, I don't believe that there is a giant leap between theoretical understanding and direct understanding (something we discussed at the Foundation). I suspect that understanding of concepts-of-dhammas becomes so strong and firm that there is a natural, inevitable, progression to direct understanding of dhammas. This could never happen to us had not the Buddha's teaching been preserved and handed down through the centuries by wise friends. Are you convinced now? :-) Ken H #84861 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/18/2008 2:58:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi all, I have just returned from a wonderful trip to Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan. Our local DSG friends and others at the Foundation really are the perfect hosts. Dhamma discussions were great, of course, but so too was the food and conversation. Who would have thought Buddhists could have such a good time? :-) I was mainly content to listen to K Sujin's answers to other people's questions without asking very many myself. Some that I did ask failed to inspire much response. This was one reason to be grateful to people like Ven. Pannabahulo who were always able to set the ball rolling. One of my questions that failed to impress K Sujin was about whether the word 'dana' referred to a concept or a reality. To my mind, if dana was a reality it could only exist for one moment of consciousness. K Sujin seemed to think I was theorising too much. She and others pointed out that the giving of a gift required many cittas. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think that's so. ------------------------------------------------------ So this has got me thinking. Maybe Howard has been right about along when he has said that my approach was different - more fundamentalist - than the the approaches taken by my fellow 'no- controllers.' I have always claimed to be saying the same as them - albeit in a more simplistic, less technical, way - but maybe I haven't! (!) ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I salute you, Ken! :-) I do so, not because you conceivable might change position to one closer to my perspective, but merely because you are prepared to look again and reconsider rather than cling to a familiar, long-held position without questioning it or looking at alternatives. That's tough to do, and I hope that I'm sufficiently capable of it as well. (I know I am a little bit.) You may end up at a position that is hardly different from the one with which you started - please don't get me wrong in that regard. What pleases me so much is not the possibility of your ending up at a "place" that appeals to me, but the fact that you are willing to keep your eyes and ears and mind open with the aim of seeing as best you can what actually is what. I think that's great! ---------------------------------------------------- In any case, I plan to listen more carefully. There seems to be a way of understanding namas and rupas that is, at the same time, not totally dismissive of concepts. Maybe, as Rob K sometimes suggests, I have been missing out on a valuable part of the Dhamma that only conventional explanations can reveal. But, then again, maybe I haven't. Time will tell. :-) Ken H PS: Another of my questions was about the sense of smell. Is there smelling-consciousness at all times of the day - even when we can't notice any particular aroma? The answer, to my surprise, was 'No, there isn't.' I would be interested to hear anyone else's thoughts on this. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Me, again! ;-)) I think the question is more complex in the sort of answer it calls for than at first might seem to be the case. For starters, I agree with the assertion that there is consciousness via only one sense door at a time - so, when there is seeing, for example, there is no smelling. Also, there are periods of time, such as when we have a cold, that the sense-of-smell is (or seems to be) completely inoperative ("the smelling sense door is closed"). A complication in this, however, it seems to me, is the matter of your phrase "even when we can't notice any particular aroma." If smelling occurs with weak attention or for a very brief duration (i.e., involving very few mind states), then that smelling may go by unnoticed (informally - "not consciously registering"). The smelling will occur in such a case, but subliminally. =========================== With metta, Howard P. S. I think that this entire discussion could have just as well pertained to any other sense door. #84862 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:42 am Subject: Metta Ch 1, no 10. nilovg Dear friends, Question: When I recite texts on mettå there is sometimes no paññå, but there is sati. I wish to extend mettå to all beings. Khun Sujin: We should know the meaning of “developing mettå” and of “extending mettå to all beings.” If one has not really developed mettå the citta does not wish happiness for anybody one meets. One does not yet have a feeling of friendship for all people, and thus one is not able to extend mettå to all beings. One can begin to develop mettå for other people through body, speech and thoughts, and thus it can gradually increase. When we think of someone else, whoever he may be, or whenever we meet someone else, there can be sincere mettå through body, speech and mind. By the recitation of texts on mettå there will not be any change in the expression of our face or in our speech; mettå will not develop through the recitation of texts. When we meet someone we can consider the citta at that moment, we should know whether we look down on him, even though we do not show this outwardly, but it is just in our mind. Does it happen that we dislike someone’s appearance, behaviour or speech? Do we really consider that person as a friend while we speak to him, do we sincerely seek what is beneficial for him and do we want to help him? There is no rule that one should recite particular texts about mettå. If we want to develop mettå we do not have to follow any rule about recitation of texts. We can think of others with kusala citta which is accompanied by mettå: we can think of doing things for his wellbeing and happiness, of protecting him from misfortune and trouble. When one recites one has to think of words, one has to think whether one should say first “may all beings be happy”, or whether one should say first “may all beings be free from suffering”. The reality of mettå is not the recitation of texts. Mettå arises when we give help to someone else through actions or through speech, depending on the situation at that moment. ******** Nina. #84863 From: "connie" Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:42 am Subject: Perfections Corner (126) nichiconn Dear Friends, The chapter on 'The Perfection of Generosity' continues: We read in the Commentary: "Giving thus, the Great Man does not give unwillingly, nor by afflicting others, nor out of fear, moral shame, or the scolding of those in need of gifts. When there is something excellent, he does not give what is mean. He does not give extolling himself and disparaging others. He does not give out of desire for the fruit, nor with loathing for those who ask, nor with lack of consideration. Rather, he gives thoroughly, with his own hand, at the proper time, considerately, without discrimination, filled with joy throughout the three times (before, during and after giving). Having given, he does not become remorseful afterwards. He does not become either conceited or obsequious in relation to the recipients, but behaves amiably towards them. Bountiful and liberal, he gives things together with a bonus (saparivaara). For when he gives food, thinking: 'I will give this along with a bonus', he gives garments, etc. as well. And when he gives garments, thinking: 'I will give this along with a bonus,' he gives food, etc. as well..." His generosity is boundless, and he gives something else as a bonus to accompany his gift. In our daily life we all should investigate and examine the realities that arise within us as they really are. Although we have listened to the texts about the Bodhisatta's giving, the way we give depends on conditions and we cannot equal the Bodhisatta in generosity. connie #84864 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 18-apr-2008, om 8:58 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > One of my questions that failed to impress K Sujin was about whether > the word 'dana' referred to a concept or a reality. To my mind, if > dana was a reality it could only exist for one moment of > consciousness. K Sujin seemed to think I was theorising too much. She > and others pointed out that the giving of a gift required many cittas. --------- > N: If we try to label a certain event and are wondering: is this a > concept or reality, > it seems theory to me. I am inclined to a practical aproach. When > you hear or see Khun Duang's great generosity, giving us lunches, > helping homeless children and dogs, generosity may arise within > you, and you may say: I appreciate this, anumodana. This is your > generosity (anumodana daana, which is a form of daana) as real as > anything, not a mind-construct or imagination. The same in the case > of your giving hospitality at your farm. There is no need to ask: > is this concept or reality. I am not inclined to wonder about this. > Or at the end of a session Betty or Sukin were saying words of > 'transferring merit' to departed relatives or friends, and also > this is an act of generosity. It is real generosity when done with > the intention to help or give, and it is not some mind construction > or concept. -------- > Ken: PS: Another of my questions was about the sense of smell. Is > there > smelling-consciousness at all times of the day - even when we can't > notice any particular aroma? The answer, to my surprise, was 'No, > there isn't.' I would be interested to hear anyone else's thoughts on > this. ------- N: Howard answered this. There is only one citta at a time, experiencing one object through one doorway. When seeing arises, there cannot be smelling. Do you wonder about things that are not clarified enough? Nina. #84865 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:08 pm Subject: Daily Words of the Buddha! bhikkhu0 Daily Words of the Buddha for 19 April 2008 AttadÄ«pÄ? viharatha, attasaranÄ?; anaññasaranÄ?. DhammadÄ«pÄ?, dhammasaranÄ?; anaññasaranÄ?. Make an island of yourself, Make yourself into your lamp! Make yourself your refuge; There is no other refuge. Make the Dhamma your island, Make the Dhamma your light! Make the Dhamma your refuge; There is no other safe haven. DÄ«gha NikÄ?ya 2.165 The Daily Words of the Buddha is a service of Pariyatti. http://www.pariyatti.org Only One Exit! No other protection, or secure shelter exists! Take it! Make it! Create it: The Way! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #84866 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:12 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,251 Vism.XVII,252 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 251. 2. 'As to state': firstly, kamma-process becoming in brief is both volition and the states of covetousness, etc., associated with the volition and reckoned as kamma too, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is kamma-process becoming? The formation of merit, the formation of demerit, the formation of the imperturbable, either with a small (limited) plane or with a large (exalted) plane: that is called kamma-process becoming. Also all kamma that leads to becoming is called kamma-process becoming' (Vbh. 137). 252. Here the formation of merit is, in terms of states, the thirteen kinds of volition ((1)-(13)), the formation of demerit is the twelve kinds ((22)-(33)), and the formation of the imperturbable is the four kinds ((14)-(17)). So with the words 'either with a small (limited) plane or with a large (exalted) plane' the insignificance or magnitude of these same volitions' result is expressed here. But with the words 'also all kamma that leads to becoming' the covetousness, etc., associated with volition are expressed. *********************** 251. dhammato pana kammabhavo taava sa"nkhepato cetanaa ceva cetanaasampayuttaa ca abhijjhaadayo kammasa"nkhaataa dhammaa. yathaaha -- ``tattha katamo kammabhavo? pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaro apu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaro aane~njaabhisa"nkhaaro (vibha0 234) parittabhuumako vaa mahaabhuumako vaa, aya.m vuccati kammabhavo. sabbampi bhavagaamikamma.m kammabhavo''ti (vibha0 234). 252. ettha hi pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaroti terasa cetanaa. apu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaroti dvaadasa. aane~njaabhisa"nkhaaroti catasso cetanaa. eva.m parittabhuumako vaa mahaabhuumako vaati etena taasa.myeva cetanaana.m mandabahuvipaakataa vuttaa. sabbampi bhavagaamikammanti iminaa pana cetanaasampayuttaa abhijjhaadayo vuttaa. #84867 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan lbidd2 Hi Ken, Regarding whether dana is concept or reality, given that dana entails many consciousnesses and activities, we might say "dana" is a concept that encompasses all these various dhammas and also dana is a cetasika that is included in the alobha category. Also, genuine dana can have a concept, such as a person, as object. On the question of why there isn't sense consciousness all the time if there is functional sensitive matter and an object present, in addition to the answer of one object at a time there is also the factor of kamma condition. All 5-door consciousness is kamma result. So conditions have to be ripe for a particular consciousness to arise. However, I'm guessing there is probably a lot more sense consciousness than we notice. There is what is called a "slight" object which in the citta process is terminated at the determining consciousness. Also, just walking across a street I have often wondered how I manage to step up on the curb without really noticing it. I seem to maneuver fairly successfully through my environment without paying much attention. The opposite of satipatthana ;-) Larry #84868 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Howard, Thanks for your response. There were some revelations in Thailand that I still need to talk and think about. --------- <. . .> KH: > > K Sujin seemed to think I was theorising too much. She and others pointed out that the giving of a gift required many cittas. Howard: I think that's so. --------- OK, but in that instance, isn't the word "dana" referring to a concept? According to my understanding, when the Buddha taught the meaning of dana he was referring to something that happened in the loka - in the namas and rupas that existed in a single, fleeting moment at one of the six doorways. Dana, in the ultimate sense, must be the function of one citta and its cetasikas. To say dana requires more than one citta makes no sense to me. Granted, all the previous cittas contributed to how the present citta appears (and functions) but they have gone now. We can't talk about a function being performed "by several cittas." There are never several cittas! When I tried to express this to K Sujin she seemed singularly unimpressed. As I understood her reply I was indulging in "too much thinking." :-) --------------- <. . .> Howard: > I salute you, Ken! :-) I do so, not because you conceivable might change position to one closer to my perspective, but merely because you are prepared to look again and reconsider rather than cling to a familiar, long-held position without questioning it or looking at alternatives. That's tough to do, and I hope that I'm sufficiently capable of it as well. (I know I am a little bit.) You may end up at a position that is hardly different from the one with which you started - please don't get me wrong in that regard. What pleases me so much is not the possibility of your ending up at a "place" that appeals to me, but the fact that you are willing to keep your eyes and ears and mind open with the aim of seeing as best you can what actually is what. I think that's great! ---------------- Thanks Howard, I think I know what you mean. There was a sense of immediacy in the way K Sujin spoke. It was dangerously close to what I have come to reject as "formal practice." But, at the same time, it was just understanding the dahmmas that were arising in the present moment - by conditions, in accordance with what I had already (previously) heard and considered. It was a bit spooky! I still don't know if I was just imagining it. :-) Or maybe K Sujin was simply saying what I had always understood her to be saying. I need to find out. ------- <. . .> KH: > > Another of my questions was about the sense of smell. Is there smelling-consciousness at all times of the day - even when we can't notice any particular aroma? The answer, to my surprise, was 'No, there isn't.' <. . .> > > Howard: > <. . .> . . .A complication in this, however, it seems to me, is the matter of your phrase "even when we can't notice any particular aroma." If smelling occurs with weak attention or for a very brief duration (i.e., involving very few mind states), then that smelling may go by unnoticed (informally - "not consciously registering"). The smelling will occur in such a case, but subliminally. ------- Yes, that is the way I am thinking too. I won't say more about it now because Nina also has responded to my post, and so I will write a reply to both of you in my next message. See you then! :-) Ken H #84869 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/18/2008 9:50:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, Thanks for your response. There were some revelations in Thailand that I still need to talk and think about. --------- <. . .> KH: > > K Sujin seemed to think I was theorising too much. She and others pointed out that the giving of a gift required many cittas. Howard: I think that's so. --------- OK, but in that instance, isn't the word "dana" referring to a concept? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, I think it is a collection of related mind states - states all having features related to generosity. But dana thought of as a single, unitary phenomenon instead of a collection of phenomena I'd say is mere concept. ------------------------------------------------- According to my understanding, when the Buddha taught the meaning of dana he was referring to something that happened in the loka - in the namas and rupas that existed in a single, fleeting moment at one of the six doorways. Dana, in the ultimate sense, must be the function of one citta and its cetasikas. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: During any of the states involved in (an instance of) dana, at any moment, it would be appropriate to say that dana is in effect. Dana, as I understand the term to be generally used, isn't just an emotion or an inclination - it is the "activity of giving," and many states are involved in that. Many of those states, if not all, involve an inclination towards giving (i.e., generosity), which I do view as a cetasika. So, we might say that in that sense dana is a single paramattha dhamma. The matter is complicated I think. ------------------------------------------------ To say dana requires more than one citta makes no sense to me. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: In the sense of "generosity," I agree with you. in the sense of the activity of giving, though, it does involve many states. --------------------------------------------------- Granted, all the previous cittas contributed to how the present citta appears (and functions) but they have gone now. We can't talk about a function being performed "by several cittas." There are never several cittas! ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree with you on that. Analogously to many bricks being needed to build a wall, many cittas are needed for certain complex functions. ------------------------------------------------------ When I tried to express this to K Sujin she seemed singularly unimpressed. As I understood her reply I was indulging in "too much thinking." :-) --------------- <. . .> Howard: > I salute you, Ken! :-) I do so, not because you conceivably might change position to one closer to my perspective, but merely because you are prepared to look again and reconsider rather than cling to a familiar, long-held position without questioning it or looking at alternatives. That's tough to do, and I hope that I'm sufficiently capable of it as well. (I know I am a little bit.) You may end up at a position that is hardly different from the one with which you started - please don't get me wrong in that regard. What pleases me so much is not the possibility of your ending up at a "place" that appeals to me, but the fact that you are willing to keep your eyes and ears and mind open with the aim of seeing as best you can what actually is what. I think that's great! ---------------- Thanks Howard, I think I know what you mean. There was a sense of immediacy in the way K Sujin spoke. It was dangerously close to what I have come to reject as "formal practice." But, at the same time, it was just understanding the dahmmas that were arising in the present moment - by conditions, in accordance with what I had already (previously) heard and considered. It was a bit spooky! I still don't know if I was just imagining it. :-) Or maybe K Sujin was simply saying what I had always understood her to be saying. I need to find out. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do suspect that her thinking might really be Zen-like in the sense of expressing a non-doing doing. Her mode of speaking, to put a good light on it, might be said to be a kind of direct pointing to no-self. And following such direct pointing requires getting "the Ken and the Howard who think" out of the way! ------------------------------------------------ ------- <. . .> KH: > > Another of my questions was about the sense of smell. Is there smelling-consciousness at all times of the day - even when we can't notice any particular aroma? The answer, to my surprise, was 'No, there isn't.' <. . .> > > Howard: > <. . .> . . .A complication in this, however, it seems to me, is the matter of your phrase "even when we can't notice any particular aroma." If smelling occurs with weak attention or for a very brief duration (i.e., involving very few mind states), then that smelling may go by unnoticed (informally - "not consciously registering"). The smelling will occur in such a case, but subliminally. ------- Yes, that is the way I am thinking too. I won't say more about it now because Nina also has responded to my post, and so I will write a reply to both of you in my next message. See you then! :-) -------------------------------------------- Howard: :-) ----------------------------------------- Ken H ========================= With metta, Howard #84870 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > . . . > N: Howard answered this. There is only one citta at a time, > experiencing one object through one doorway. When seeing arises, > there cannot be smelling. Do you wonder about things that are not > clarified enough? > Hi Nina (and Howard), Thanks Nina, but I know there is only one citta at a time. I have said that myself many times on DSG. (At last count, two million times!) :-) Whenever I have listened to the recorded discussions I have wondered why K Sujin talks about what is happening "now." According to my understanding, none of us is aware of the precise "present-moment" citta. Therefore, I had to make the obvious assumption that KS was speaking about "now" in a loose, conventional, way. When someone uses "now" to mean "while we are sitting here" or "in these few minutes" we can quite rightly say there is seeing, hearing, touching, thinking (etc) "now." However, after actually attending some of the discussions I have a different understanding of the way K Sujin was speaking. I have the impression she actually wants us to know, quite literally, that there is seeing *now* (in the present, single-citta moment). (!!!) You will remember that someone (on Monday, I think) asked K Sujin why she emphasised seeing and visible object more than the other senses and objects. The answer, I think (still not sure), was that we can verify there is seeing now. We have our eyes open and we have been blessed with the sense of sight and, therefore, when can know quite literally "there is seeing now!" This is fine by me - it adds a new dimension to Dhamma discussion. But aren't there some obvious dangers? Up until then, to my mind, this kind of thinking had always been anathema. It had been too much like a "formal (controlled) satipatthana practice." I have always thought I should get my understanding from the teaching (verified by my experiences as a whole), not from any purported "personal experience" of a single moment reality. On my last day at the Foundation (the day after you and Lodevijk returned home) there was some discussion of smelling and tasting consciousnesses. To my surprise, K Sujin and others seemed to be saying there was no smelling or tasting "now." This went against my understanding. As I have just explained, I have always understood KS and the texts to be saying that experiences occur at all six doorways (one at a time) billions of times every second. We can't know any particular one of them. It might seem to us that there is no smelling or tasting now, but how are we to know? Wouldn't that be just thinking? I suggested to K Sujin that, were I to put on strong-smelling aftershave (for example) I would be able to smell it for a while, but soon I would not be unable to notice it at all (even though other people who entered the room would). To my mind this doesn't mean smelling has stopped happening at the paramattha level. Billions of smelling-cittas are coming and going every second, but there are no conditions for thinking very much about them. There may be conditions for brief thoughts about them, but none significant enough for me to remember and put into words. But, no, K Sujin seemed to be saying, "Can you smell anything now? No? Then there aren't any conditions for smelling now. There is no smelling now!" As I was saying; this was all too conventional to my way of thinking, and it came as a bit of a shock. It still does! :-) Ken H #84871 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:46 pm Subject: Bak Poya Day! bhikkhu0 Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? The Bak Poya day is the full-moon of April. This holy day celebrates that the Buddha visits Ceylon for the second time to reconcile two local chiefs Mahodara and CÅ«lodara , uncle & nephew, who had fallen into war threatening hostility about a throne beset with Jewels... The story shows the Buddha as top diplomat & is given in full below! On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed white-clothed clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first 3 times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in/to this world! The journey towards NibbÄ?na: The Deathless is started! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha Observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps also the Eight Precepts from sunrise until next dawn. If any wish official recognition by the BhikkhuSangha, they may easily forward the lines starting with "I hereby" signed by name, date, town, & country to me or join here . Public list of this new quite rapidly growing global web Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The New Noble Community of Buddha's Disciples: Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift, and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Reuniting those who are divided, by bringing harmony: Now the most compassionate Teacher, the Conqueror, rejoicing in the salvation of the whole world, when dwelling at Jetavana in the fifth year of his Buddhahood, saw that war, caused by a gem beset throne, was like to come to pass between the nagas Mahodara and CÅ«lodara , uncle and nephew and their followers! The SamBuddha , then on the Uposatha day of the dark half of the month Citta, in the early morning, took his sacred alms bowl and his robes, and, out of compassion for the nagas , sought the Nagadipa . At that time the same naga Mahodara was then king, gifted with miraculous powers, in a nagas kingdom in the ocean, that covered half a 1000 yojanas. His younger sister had been given in marriage to the naga king on the Kannavaddhamana mountain; her son was CÅ«lodara . His mothers father had given to his mother a splendid throne of jewels, then the naga had died and therefore was this war between nephew & uncle threatening! The nagas of the mountains were also armed with many miraculous powers. The deva Samiddhisumana took his rajayatana tree standing in Jetavana , his own fair habitation, holding it like a parasol over the Conqueror, he, with the Teachers leave, attended him to that spot where he had formerly dwelt. That very deva had been, in his latest birth, a man in Nagadipa . On the very spot where thereafter the rajayatana tree stood, he had seen PaccekaBuddhas taking their meal. And at the sight his heart was glad & he offered branches to cleanse their alms bowls. Therefore he was reborn in that very same tree in the pleasant Jetavana garden, outside of the gate rampart. The God of all gods saw in this an advantage for that deva, and, for the sake of the good which should spring therefrom for Ceylon, he brought him there together with his tree. Hovering there in midair above the battlefield, the Master, who drives away spiritual darkness, called forth dreadful darkness over the nagas! Then comforting those who were distressed by terror he once again spread light abroad. When they saw the Blessed One, they joyfully did reverence to the Masters feet. Then the Vanquisher preached to them the Dhamma that makes concord, & both nagas gladly gave up the throne to the Sage. When the Master, having alighted on the earth, had taken his place on a seat there, and had been refreshed with celestial food and drink served by the naga kings, he, the Lord, established in the three refuges and in the 8 moral precepts eighty kotis of snake-spirits, dwellers in the ocean and on the mainland. The nagaking Maniakkhika of KalyÄ?ni , maternal uncle to this naga Mahodara , who had come there to take part in the battle, and who before, at the Buddhas first coming, having heard the true Dhamma preached, had become established in the 3 refuges & in the moral duties, prayed now to the Tathagata: Great is the compassion that you have shown us here, Master! Had you not appeared we had all been consumed to ashes. May your compassion yet settle also and especially on me, you who are rich in friendly loving kindness, please peerless one come again back here to my home country. When the Lord had consented by his silence to return, then he planted the rajayatana tree on that very spot as a sacred memorial, & the Lord of the Worlds gave over the rajayatana tree & the precious throne seat to the naga kings to do homage thereto: In remembrance that I have used these do homage to them naga kings! This, well beloved, will bring to pass many blessings & happiness to you for a long time! When the Blessed One had uttered this and other exhortations to the nagas, he, the compassionate saviour of all the world, returned to the Jetavana monastery. Here ends the explanation of the Visit to Nagadipa . Source: Mahavamsa I:44. The Great Chronicle of Ceylon. Translated. By Wilhelm Geiger 1912; reprinted in 1980. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=130010I Bak Poya Day! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #84872 From: "connie" Date: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:16 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,251 Vism.XVII,252 nichiconn Vsm 647. Dhammato pana kammabhavo taava sa"nkhepato cetanaa ceva cetanaasampayuttaa ca abhijjhaadayo kammasa"nkhaataa dhammaa. Yathaaha- "tattha katamo kammabhavo? Pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaro apu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaro aane~njaabhisa"nkhaaro (vibha. 234) parittabhuumako vaa mahaabhuumako vaa, aya.m vuccati kammabhavo. Sabbampi bhavagaamikamma.m kammabhavo"ti (vibha. 234). Ppn XVII, 251. 2. As to state: firstly kamma-process becoming in brief is both volition also and the states of covetousness, etc., associated with the volition and reckoned as kamma too according as it is said 'Herein, what is kamma-process becoming? The formation of merit, the formation of demerit, the formation of the imperturbable, either with a small (limited) plane or with a large (exalted) plane: that is called kamma-process becoming. Also all kamma that leads to becoming is called 'kamma-process becoming' (Vbh.137). PoP p.686: "By state": - briefly, volition and states termed karma, such as covetousness associated with volition, are karma-becoming. As it is said: "What therein is karma-becoming? The preparation for merit, the preparation for demerit, the preparation for stationariness whether of the limited stage or the sublime stage - this is called karma-becoming. And all karma leading to becoming is karma-becoming." {See note 4, page 571 of text, referring to Vibha"nga, p.137.} Vsm: Ettha hi pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaroti terasa cetanaa. Apu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaroti dvaadasa. Aane~njaabhisa"nkhaaroti catasso cetanaa. Eva.m parittabhuumako vaa mahaabhuumako vaati etena taasa.myeva cetanaana.m mandabahuvipaakataa vuttaa. Sabbampi bhavagaamikammanti iminaa pana cetanaasampayuttaa abhijjhaadayo vuttaa. PPn XVII, 252. Here the formation of merit is, in terms of states, the thirteen kinds of volition ((1)-(13)), the formation of demerit is the twelve kinds ((22)-(33)) and the formation of the imperturbable is the four kinds ((14)-(17)). So with the words either with a small (limited) plane or with a large (exalted) plane the insignificance or magnitude of these same volitions' result is expressed here. But with the words also all kamma that leads to becoming the covetousness, etc., associated with volition are expressed. PoP p.686-7: Of these, thirteen volitions are the preparation for merit, twelve are the preparation for demerit, four are the preparation for stationariness. Thus, by the expression: "Whether of the limited stage or the sublime stage" is meant the feebleness or strength of the results of these volitions. And by the expression "And all karma leading to becoming" are meant covetousness and so on which are associated with volition. #84873 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sat's e-card from Bangkok - more on anatta sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Qu:Isn't it enough to study the ti-lakkhana? > A:Where are we and where is the map? > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sounds deep. But I don't see evidence of depth here. > ---------------------------------------- S: The point is, are we like Sariputta, just needing to hear a few words about conditions or anicca in order to become enlightened or do we need to study and consider a lot first in order to understand what is meant by ti-lakkhana? Unless there is a very clear understanding of different namas and rupas when they appear now, there won't be any understanding of the universal characteristics. .... > - Qu about the Satipatthana Sutta and starting somewhere with one > foundation. > A: Can satipatthana arise now?.......Without understanding, don't think > satipatthana can arise. It has to begin with very firm intellectual > understanding first. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Satipatthana isn't wisdom. It is a foundation of mindfulness - a > category of phenomena that can be attended to mindfully. > ----------------------------------------- ... S: Satipatthana can refer to a 'foundation of mindfulness'. It also refers to sati cetasika, accompanied by panna which understands a reality. ... > > **** > - Qu about the Malunkyaputta Sutta, cutting the story, not > proliferating... > A: Please do it now! > What's happening? > No understanding. The Buddha didn't tell anyone to do or not do > anything! > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Completely in error. There are SO many examples to the contrary. ... S: So let me put K.Sujin's 'command' to you: Please cut the story now! Don't proliferate! Is that the end of the story or proliferation? .... > **** > On the subtlety of seeing....so simple, but no understanding. Whatever > appears as a conditioned reality, arises and falls away in split > seconds - > that's why there's no understanding. No one can own anything - gone > completely. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But there *can* be understanding. It doesn't arise, however, only > by > study, but by a multiplicity of conditions. > ------------------------------------------ S: What is this multiplicity of conditions? MN 43, under 'Right View', Nanamoli/Bodhi transl " "Friend, how many conditions are there for the arising of right view?" "Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another and wise attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view." " [note: "MA: "The voice of another" (parato ghosa) is the teaching of beneficial Dhamma. These two conditions are necessary for disciples to arrive at the right view of insight and the right view of the supramundane path." .... S: I've only picked up on a few of your comments. Please let me know if you'd like to discuss any of these or the other ones further. Metta, Sarah ======== #84874 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandha Yamaka - Study Report 23 sarahprocter... Dear Chew (Ven Dhammanando & Nina), I'd like to add a few comments here... --- Chew wrote: > Study Report 23 > > [30/211] > Pali Text: > Sa~n~naa sa~n~naakkhandhoti? di.t.thisa~n~naa sa~n~naa, na > sa~n~naakkhandho. Sa~n~naakkhandho sa~n~naa ceva sa~n~naakkhandho ca. > Khandhaa ruupakkhandhoti? ruupakkhandho khandho ceva ruupakkhandho ca. > Avasesaa khandhaa, na ruupakkhandho. > > Translation: > (i) It is perception. Is it perception aggregate? > Wrong views based on perception are perception, but not perception > aggregate. .... S: Below in the Guide note you clarify that the wrong views based on perception are referring to wrong views. I can't understand here why it it says they are 'perception'. Also, any sa~n~naa is Sa~n~naa khandha... .... >Perception aggregate is both perception and perception > aggregate. > They are aggregates. Are they matter aggregate? > Matter aggregate is both aggregate and matter aggregate. The > remainings are aggregates, but not the matter aggregate. .... S: Ok. ... > Guide: > Wrong views based on perception are wrong view mental factor. They are > perception. They are not perception aggregate. Perception aggregate is > perception mental factor. .... S: Yes, but why does it say the wrong views are perception? Metta, Sarah p.s Nina, Chew told us that he(?) comes from Penang, not Thailand. ======== #84875 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:11 am Subject: Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Larry, ----------- L: > Regarding whether dana is concept or reality, given that dana entails many consciousnesses and activities, we might say "dana" is a concept that encompasses all these various dhammas ------------ Until recently, I would have said concepts of dana (etc) were useful as metaphors only. A story of a gift being handed from one person to another was (I would have said) useful only in so far as it gave us some insight into the nature of alobha-cetasika and its co-arising cetasikas. Now, however, I am being told that dana must entail multiple cittas "because there has to be the picking up of the gift, the offering, the acceptance of it and the actual transfer of the gift (etc, etc)." It's as if the story has some efficacy in its own right. I remain confident that this can be resolved without any major upheaval. On every other issue I am on the same wavelength as my fellow no-controllers. There is, however, something that they can see that I can't. Or maybe it is just in the different words we choose. ---------------- L: > and also dana is a cetasika that is included in the alobha category. ----------------- Yes. Alobha arises with every kusala citta. According to my understanding (and it could be very wrong) whenever there is abstinence from wrong-doing the citta is called sila, whenever there is right understanding the citta is called bhavana, and at all other kusala moments the citta is called dana. But that could be an over- simplification. -------------------------- L: > Also, genuine dana can have a concept, such as a person, as object. -------------------------- Yes, it can. But let's not forget that every sense-door citta-process includes seven cittas that are either kusala or akusala. These cittas, as we know, have a rupa as their object. Also, there can be mind-door processes that take a nama as their object. They, also, contain seven kusala, or akusala, cittas. So dana (it seems to me) can have a dhamma as its object. Whenever there is dana - regardless of the object - lobha cetasika performs the function of generosity. Or so it seems to me. --------------------------------- L: > On the question of why there isn't sense consciousness all the time if there is functional sensitive matter and an object present, in addition to the answer of one object at a time there is also the factor of kamma condition. All 5-door consciousness is kamma result. So conditions have to be ripe for a particular consciousness to arise. -------------------------------- Agreed. So does that mean there could be significant periods of time when there is no smelling or tasting, for example? -------------- L: > However, I'm guessing there is probably a lot more sense consciousness than we notice. There is what is called a "slight" object which in the citta process is terminated at the determining consciousness. Also, just walking across a street I have often wondered how I manage to step up on the curb without really noticing it. I seem to manoeuvre fairly successfully through my environment without paying much attention. --------------- Yes, and I would have thought there could be continual background noises, smells and tastes (etc) that we can't notice until they suddenly stop. But maybe that only happens in conventional reality. (?) ------------------ L: > The opposite of satipatthana ;-) ------------------ :-) Now then Larry! I think you know satipatthana has no relation to the kind of mindfulness that helps us cross a street. It is mindfulness of paramattha dhammas only. Ken H #84876 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for the reply: > > S: "We have to be specific about which vipaka cittas we are talking > about. In this context, we were talking about moments of hearing > consciousness and I said there was no panna with these. Only the 7 > universal cetasikas arises with them. With other kinds of vipaka > citta, such as bhavanga cittas, it's another matter. How's your study > going?" > > Scott: I've been looking at the 'beginning', as it were. And this > comes at the question from a different angle. Rebirth consciousness > can have no, two, or three roots, as I understand. .... S: Or none.... ... >If there is no > pa~n~naa at this moment - if patisandhi citta is not sahetuka kusala > vipaaka, and if it is not accompanied by wisdom at this time, then > there can be no development of pa~n~naa during that given life-time. .... S: I think we need to distinguish between a)patisandhi citta which is sahetuka kusala vipaka, but not accompanied by panna and b)ahetuka or c)akusala vipaka. I don't think the texts say that if the patisandhi citta is sahetuka kusala vipaka, but not accompanied by panna, that there can be no panna during that life. What they say (as I recall), is that jhana or enlightenment cannot be attained. All we can do is speculate about this, I believe. .... > This wouldn't mean that there was no pa~n~naa accumulated, but that it > didn't arise during cuti citta of the last lifetime. I'd like to > clarify this first. Do I have it correct? ... S: The cuti citta of the last lifetime was exactly the same kind of citta as the patisandhi and bhavanga cittas of that lifetime. The patisandhi citta of this lifetime (and following bhavanga and cuti cittas) are conditioned by the last javana cittas (kamma) of the last lifetime. These cittas are either rooted or not rooted in panna, but these are vipaka cittas, so we don't usually refer to panna 'arising during cuti citta'. Let's go from here... Metta, Sarah ========= #84877 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive jonoabb Hi TG Insight does > not merely "see states as they appear," but sees "the nature" that > "underlies" the appearance. I would say that this vision of insight is in full > compliance to the way the Suttas present the Dhamma. > > It is this ability to see "through" the appearance of phenomena that is > insightful. It is this ability that allows the mind to recognize that whatever > object is cognized is empty of anything of "itself." Fine, but I'm not clear whether, and in what sense, the above differs from saying that insight sees states (dhammas) as they truly are, that is to say, as anicca, dukkha and anatta. Could you perhaps give an example of what you are saying that differs from this. It has no essence of its > own. It is merely conditionally relative and continuously altering in > conformity to conditional circumstances. Here you seem to introduce vocabulary not found in the texts: states as "conditionally relative" and "continuously altering in conformity to conditional circumstances". As far as I know, individual states do not alter; they simply arise and fall away. Of course, the object of consciousness continuously changes, in the sense of changing from one dhamma to another. But the object does not change in itself. Jon #84878 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (2) sarahprocter... Hi James (& Han), --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Here is the full quote from KS's book: > > The recluse thought: 'If I say that I did not indulge in sin, the > king would believe me, but in this world there is no surer > foundation than truthful speech. Someone who forsakes the truth > cannot attain Buddhahood, even if he sits in the sacred enclosure of > the Bodhi Tree. Hence I should only speak the truth. In certain > cases a Bodhisatta may destroy life, take what is not given to him, > commit adultery, drink strong liquor, but he may not tell a lie, > speech that violates the truth." > > James: I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying this. This is > basically saying that lying is the worst crime which one can commit: > one could kill a person and still that would be better than telling > a lie. What?? You must be kidding me! .... S: I don't think it's saying that at all. ... >Just think about it: > killing a person is better than telling a lie. Does that make any > sense to you? .... S: I haven't seen this said anywhere. Metta, Sarah ======== #84879 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Nina) - In a message dated 4/18/2008 10:30:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: On my last day at the Foundation (the day after you and Lodevijk returned home) there was some discussion of smelling and tasting consciousnesses. To my surprise, K Sujin and others seemed to be saying there was no smelling or tasting "now." This went against my understanding. As I have just explained, I have always understood KS and the texts to be saying that experiences occur at all six doorways (one at a time) billions of times every second. We can't know any particular one of them. It might seem to us that there is no smelling or tasting now, but how are we to know? Wouldn't that be just thinking? I suggested to K Sujin that, were I to put on strong-smelling aftershave (for example) I would be able to smell it for a while, but soon I would not be unable to notice it at all (even though other people who entered the room would). To my mind this doesn't mean smelling has stopped happening at the paramattha level. Billions of smelling-cittas are coming and going every second, but there are no conditions for thinking very much about them. =============================== I distinguish between experiencing something and it's "consciously registering." After there is repeated conscious experiencing of "the same" sensation, say an aroma, one may become inured to it to such an extent that one no longer "notices" it. That perhaps means that cetasikas such as contact, attention, and recognition arise only in very weakened form with regard to such an object, and perhaps, also, various specialized cittas within a process of cittas (registration cittas, for example) are omitted. (I'm quite ignorant with regard to that last matter.) In any case, the olfactory consciousness "slips below the radar" or at least comes close to becoming subliminal. As I see it, consciousness flits from one sense door to another, and during a brief period, there may be many returnings to the same sense door. When the knowing via one sense door, olfactory consciousness for example, has been compromised as discussed above, even partially, but not the knowing via the other sense doors, it will seem that there is no knowing through that sense door at all, but only via the others. I also consider the case that one, for a period of time, literally lacks the operation of a sense door -perhaps the nose door, due to a number of alternative reasons. In this case, within that given mind stream, there will be no "smelling-cittas ... coming and going every second" at all. There will be no nose-door function, no olfactory consciousness, and no olfactory contact. [Also, for me, from my phenomenalist position identifying rupas with 5-sense-door elements of experience ("material experience"), and considering there to be no "unsmelled odors," there also will be no olfactory rupas within that stream of experience during the period of olfactory impairment, though there may well be odors for others "in the same location." I leave the chemists' and biologists' notion of aromas as fine particulate matter "out in the world" to the chemists and biologists, not considering that relevant to the Dhamma, which, if not phenomenalist, is certainly phenomenological. I bracket all this, BTW, as it is an aside that can be skipped.] With metta, Howard #84880 From: Sukinder Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) sukinderpal Hi Phil, Reading your recent posts many different thoughts in reaction have arisen, but only now have I decided to respond. ================= > > I've said this before, but I just can't wrap my head around the > notion of someone in this day and age not wanting, wanting, wanting > a lot out of Dhamma. But that's maybe because I am such a greedy > fellow. > S: I think basically there is really no difference in the accumulated greed amongst members of this group. That some appear to have less of it than others, this is just about conditions, including the selective '"thinking" in terms of people and situations' that in fact says nothing about how the tanha otherwise manifests let alone be reflection of the latent tendencies. And although this problem may in fact be a matter of "view" taking effect well before any verbalization, and your insistence on seeing A. Sujin's approach as being wrong may in part be to give credibility to your own theory about 'theory and practice', I would still like to discuss this with you. Phil, you have said earlier that you do not believe in the idea of Pariyatti > Patipatti > Pativedha. Could you explain why you reject this? If not this, do you believe in the Suttamaya panna > Cintamaya panna > Bhavanamaya panna relationship? I ask this because I see that any difference here reflects on the differences everywhere else and if there is any chance of ever coming to agree, this is a good place to start. ;-) Please take your time to think this through and to formulate your understandings. Better to go slow in fact, I think.... Metta, Sukin #84881 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:02 am Subject: Metta, Ch 2, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 2. Overcoming anger If we truly know the characteristic of mettå we can develop it. However, we should not think that we can already extend mettå to all beings so that it is boundless. In fact, only people who have developed samatha with mettå as meditation subject and have attained the first stage of jhåna, are able to extend mettå to all beings. Question: The commentator states that one should recite particular texts about mettå. Khun Sujin: Does mettå-citta arise according to a particular rule? Question: No, that is not so. Khun Sujin: One should know the characteristic of mettå as it is and then one can develop it more and more. However, as I explained, one should not try to extend mettå to all beings straightaway in order to develop it more. Question: There are forty meditation subjects of samatha and it depends on one’s inclination which subject one will develop. Generally one has to recite texts in order to develop meditation subjects, such as the “earth kasiùa”. Khun Sujin: We should investigate the Tipitaka in order to find out whether it is said that we should recite texts. We read in the Kindred Sayings (I, Sagåthå-vagga, Chapter VII, The Brahmin Suttas, 1, Arahats, §1, The Dhanañjåni brahminee): Thus have I heard:—The Exalted One was once staying near Råjagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, at the Squirrels’ Feeding ground. Now at that time a Dhanañjåni brahminee, the wife of a certain brahmin of the Bhåradvåja family, was a fervent believer in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. And she, while serving the Bhåradvåja with his dinner, came before him and uttered three times the following praise: “Glory to that Exalted One, Arahat, Buddha supreme! Glory to the Dhamma! Glory to the Sangha!” And when she had said so the Bhåradvåja brahmin exclaimed: “There now! At any and every opportunity must the wretch be speaking the praises of that shaveling friar! Now, wretch, will I give that teacher of yours a piece of my mind!” “O brahmin, I know of no one throughout the world of gods, Måras or Brahmås, recluses or brahmins, no one human or divine, who could admonish that Exalted One, Arahat, Buddha Supreme. Nevertheless, go, brahmin, and then you will know. ” Then the Bhåradvåja, vexed and displeased, went to find the Exalted One; and coming into his presence, exchanged with him greetings and compliments, friendly and courteous, and sat down at one side. So seated, he addressed the Exalted One in a verse:— What must we slay if we would live happily? What must we slay if we would weep no more? What is it above all other things of which The slaying you would approve, Gotama? The Buddha said: Wrath must you slay, if you would live happily, Wrath must you slay, if you would weep no more. Of anger, brahmin, with its poisoned root And fevered tip, murderously sweet, That is the slaying by the ariyans praised; That must you slay in truth, to weep no more. When the Exalted One had thus spoken, the Bhåradvåja brahmin said to him: “Most excellent, lord, most excellent”... We then read that Bhåradvåja brahmin left the world under the Exalted One and was ordained. Not long after his ordination he attained arahatship. ******* Nina. #84882 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandha Yamaka - Study Report 23 nilovg Dear Chew and Sarah, Op 19-apr-2008, om 9:10 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Guide: > > Wrong views based on perception are wrong view mental factor. > They are > > perception. They are not perception aggregate. Perception > aggregate is > > perception mental factor. ------ N: I am trying to figure this out. The term sa~n~naa can be used more widely, in association with wrong view or right view, such as atta- sa~n~naa and anattaa sa~n~naa. Here di.t.thi sa~n~naa is di.t.thi and it is sankhaarakkhandha. Nina. #84883 From: "connie" Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:36 am Subject: Perfections Corner (127) nichiconn Dear Friends, Ch.1 continues: Further on in the Commentary we read what the Bodhisatta is thinking when he has an object that can be given but his citta is not inclined to give: "When the Bodhisatta possesses objects that can be given and suppliants are present, but his mind does not leap up at the thought of giving and he does not want to give, he should conclude: 'Surely, I have not been accustomed to giving in the past, therefore, a desire to give does not arise now in my mind. So that my mind will delight in giving in the future, I will give a gift. With an eye for the future let me now relinquish what I have to those in need.'" Thus, we see that giving cannot be forced. A person who has accumulated the inclination to give often, time and again, is able to give immediately, without hesitation, without having to think about it again and again. Therefore, when someone's mind does not leap up at the thought of giving immediately, or when he hesitates, it can be known that he surely did not accumulate giving in the past. We read further on: "Thus he gives a gift, generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishing; one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the first shackle to giving." Here we see that we should investigate our citta when we are not inclined to give. We read: "Again, when the object to be given is inferior or defective, the Great Being reflects: 'Because I was not inclined to giving in the past, at present my requisites are defective. Therefore: though it pains me, let me give whatever I have as a gift even if the object is low and inferior. In that way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the perfection of giving.' Thus he gives whatever kind of gift he can- generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishing, one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and in sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the second shackle to giving." connie #84884 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:20 am Subject: Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan lbidd2 Hi Ken, A few snips: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Until recently, I would have said concepts of dana (etc) were useful > as metaphors only. A story of a gift being handed from one person to > another was (I would have said) useful only in so far as it gave us > some insight into the nature of alobha-cetasika and its co-arising > cetasikas. Now, however, I am being told that dana must entail > multiple cittas "because there has to be the picking up of the gift, > the offering, the acceptance of it and the actual transfer of the > gift (etc, etc)." It's as if the story has some efficacy in its own > right. Larry: I think it is more a matter of a concept that is meant to refer to a group of related realities, like "citta process". > L: > and also dana is a cetasika that is included in the alobha > category. > ----------------- > > Yes. Alobha arises with every kusala citta. According to my > understanding (and it could be very wrong) whenever there is > abstinence from wrong-doing the citta is called sila, whenever there > is right understanding the citta is called bhavana, and at all other > kusala moments the citta is called dana. But that could be an over- > simplification. > Larry: I haven't seen this before, but it looks interesting. > -------------------------- > L: > Also, genuine dana can have a concept, such as a person, as > object. > -------------------------- > > Yes, it can. But let's not forget that every sense-door citta-process > includes seven cittas that are either kusala or akusala. These > cittas, as we know, have a rupa as their object. Also, there can be > mind-door processes that take a nama as their object. They, also, > contain seven kusala, or akusala, cittas. So dana (it seems to me) > can have a dhamma as its object. Whenever there is dana - regardless > of the object - lobha cetasika performs the function of generosity. > Or so it seems to me. > Larry: Did you mean "alobha cetasika performs the function of generosity"? I have thought about how dana might be conditioned and I think it might be by way of the perception of a sign of merit. Love can also condition generosity. I consider love to be adosa cetasika, always kusala, not to be confused with desire, although love also often conditions desire. > --------------------------------- > L: > On the question of why there isn't sense consciousness all the > time if there is functional sensitive matter and an object present, > in addition to the answer of one object at a time there is also the > factor of kamma condition. All 5-door consciousness is kamma result. > So conditions have to be ripe for a particular consciousness to arise. > -------------------------------- > > Agreed. So does that mean there could be significant periods of time > when there is no smelling or tasting, for example? Larry: Maybe, it might depend on how tuned-in to smelling or tasting you are. If you are a professional cook, or a dog, it might be your whole life. > -------------- > L: > However, I'm guessing there is probably a lot more sense > consciousness than we notice. There is what is called a "slight" > object which in the citta process is terminated at the determining > consciousness. Also, just walking across a street I have often > wondered how I manage to step up on the curb without really noticing > it. I seem to maneuver fairly successfully through my environment > without paying much attention. > --------------- > > Yes, and I would have thought there could be continual background > noises, smells and tastes (etc) that we can't notice until they > suddenly stop. But maybe that only happens in conventional reality. > (?) Larry: Don't know. If you want to pursue this you might cultivate tranquility. It greatly increases one's awareness of subtle experience. > > ------------------ > L: > The opposite of satipatthana ;-) > ------------------ > > :-) Now then Larry! I think you know satipatthana has no relation to > the kind of mindfulness that helps us cross a street. It is > mindfulness of paramattha dhammas only. Larry: I don't think you can cross a street without attention to paramattha dhammas. Try it with your eyes closed. Satipatthana is more than that but it can definitely be found in ordinary experience. > > Ken H > Larry #84885 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan nilovg Dear Ken, Best regards from Lodewijk, and he said he so much appreciated meeting you in person. I am thinking about your points, and noticed you even used the word spooky. I am sorry and wish I can do something. Op 19-apr-2008, om 4:30 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > Billions of > smelling-cittas are coming and going every second, but there are no > conditions for thinking very much about them. There may be conditions > for brief thoughts about them, but none significant enough for me to > remember and put into words. > > But, no, K Sujin seemed to be saying, "Can you smell anything now? > No? Then there aren't any conditions for smelling now. There is no > smelling now!" > > As I was saying; this was all too conventional to my way of thinking, > and it came as a bit of a shock. It still does! :-) ------- N: Perhaps you notice that the word 'appear' is used often. Visible object appears now, seeing appears now. Why not the term 'arise'? Because when it appears and shows its characteristic, it has arisen already. Off hand I would say: we should keep it simple and not think of the billions of cittas. Of course countless moments of seeing arise and fall away, there is seeing again and again. Is there seeing now? This reminds us to attend to its characteristic, it has a specific characteristic different from hearing. We could not pinpoint the exact now, but this does not matter. When we become more familiar with different characteristics, we can learn that they are mere dhammas that are not ours. That is the purpose. Perhaps you may appreciate the Kindred Sayings, Kindred Sayings on Sense. Concise suttas, very much to the point. Perhaps you read Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, but when you reread it, it may answer many of your questions on citta and doorways. Especially the chapters on citta. If you like to discuss this subject, it is very easy to use Rob's Web Abhidhamma, to quote from. Thinking of subliminal experiences or weak experiences does not help, I am afraid. We should not think too much when Kh Sujin says: is there seeing now, is there hearing now? Just attend to different characteristics, that is all. Nina. #84886 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Jon In a message dated 4/19/2008 3:18:41 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi TG Insight does > not merely "see states as they appear," but sees "the nature" that > "underlies" the appearance. I would say that this vision of insight is in full > compliance to the way the Suttas present the Dhamma. > > It is this ability to see "through" the appearance of phenomena that is > insightful. It is this ability that allows the mind to recognize that whatever > object is cognized is empty of anything of "itself." Fine, but I'm not clear whether, and in what sense, the above differs from saying that insight sees states (dhammas) as they truly are, that is to say, as anicca, dukkha and anatta. Could you perhaps give an example of what you are saying that differs from this. ................................................................ TG: There are two problems with the above comment as I see it. First of all, generally in this group, seeing "dhammas" for what they really are is much more than just seeing them as impermanent, afflicted, and nonself. "Dhammas" are seen as "Ultimate Realities with THEIR OWN Characteristics. I hope that it is needless to say, that this outlook, is a million miles away from JUST seeing -- "phenomena as impermanent, afflicted, and nonself." The point of the Buddha's teaching in this regard, is to isolate "different conglomerations" of conditionality (what you would call "dhammas") merely in order to realize that "all conditioned phenomena" are impermanent, afflicted, and nonself. This leads to detachment, abandonment from all conditions. HOWEVER, many in this group believe that isolating "different conglomerations" of conditionality is for the purpose of seeing those "different conglomerations" as "having their own characteristics." This undoubtedly leads to seeing these "different conglomerations" as "individual states/"dhammas." This means they get seen as "with core" and self...even if for a fleeting moment. This means that the comprehensive view of nonself is not inculcated in the mind. This means detachment from these so-thought-of VERY REAL "dhammas" is very very unlikely. IMO, this has resulted from the commentarial "over-analysis" of the elements in regards to "individual function," etc. The "over-analysis" itself is not to blame, but the over estimation and over-substantiation that have resulted, due to that analysis, is the problem. That's why, on the one hand, I appreciate the analysis, on the other hand, I see it has caused great harm...not by "its own" doing, but by the way it has led minds to over-substantiate what are actually just coreless and vacant phenomena. Its fine to isolate elements for purposes of analysis...as long as that analysis does not impart characteristics upon said elements so as to see them incorrectly...such as anything of "own" or "individual." ................................................................. It has no essence of its > own. It is merely conditionally relative and continuously altering in > conformity to conditional circumstances. Here you seem to introduce vocabulary not found in the texts: states as "conditionally relative" and "continuously altering in conformity to conditional circumstances"to conditional circumstances". As far a not alter; they simply arise and fall away. ...................................................................... TG: This view above is a huge misreading IMO. It is the core problem that I see in the interpretation of Dhamma as I have described above. The idea of "continual alteration" is replete throughout the suttas. So I think it is exactly THIS point that causes the huge problems that we would have with each others view. Granted, we may see many things very closely, but this point is crucial. The Buddha has compared conditionality to an ocean wave that swells and recedes. He has given example of stone mountain crags wearing away due to soft cloth rubbing against it, the ships rotting away (due to the elements) over time, an adze handles wearing away over time. Now, I think you'll come up with reasons to reject these, so I'll post some stuff and please respond directly to the crucial "altering" factors within the quotes... "...his body, consisting of form, composed of the four great elements, originating from mother and father, built up out of rice and gruel, SUBJECT TO IMPERMANENCE, TO BEING WORN AND RUBBED AWAY, TO BREAKING APART, AND DISPERSAL." (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Vol 2, page 1808. Samyutta Nikaya Book Five.) Here's another translation... “Imposthume, brethren, is a term for body, of the four elements compounded, of parents sprung, on rice and gruel fed, impermanent, of a nature to be worn away, pounded away, broken and scattered.â€? (The Buddha . . . Book of the Kindred Sayings (KS), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 4, pg. 50) “Monks, consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad. And how, monks, does consciousness come to be in dependence on a dyad? In dependence on eye and forms there arises eye-consciousness. The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. “Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? “The meeting, the encounter, the occurrence of these three things is called eye-contact. Eye-contact too is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-contact is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-contact has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? “Contacted, monks, one feels, contacted one intends, contacted one perceives. Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. [The Buddha proceeds to analyze the ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness in the same manner and finishes with...] “It is in such a way, monks, that consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1172) In order to keep it relatively simple, I'll just post these three quotes. Please deal with these terms.... "MOVING AND TOTTERING, IMPERMANENT, CHANGING, BECOMING OTHERWISE " and "TO BEING WORN AND RUBBED AWAY, TO BREAKING APART, AND DISPERSAL." The first quote (immediately above) deals with the 18 elements and their outgrowths. The second deals with the Four Great Elements. Now when I read what the Suttas say above and what you have written below, I really don't know where you're coming from ... but I figure the "Ultimate Realities with Its Own Characteristic" from commentarial sources, has corrupted what is really just common sense, and quite frankly, laid out pretty clearly by the Buddha. My summation is this... Element, aggregates, or any conditioned phenomena are never for a moment "their own" thing. They are continually changing and our idea of them is a mere "perceptual-reference-point." Our PERCEPTION of these things is the only thing that thinks "they have their own characteristics." This is a delusion. Ultimately and in truth, they do not. They are coreless and vacant and continuously altering in accordance to conditional forces. Any attachment to phenomena, including any idea of "their reality" is grounds for suffering. Yet the investigation of phenomena needs to continue until attachment is ended. TG OUT Of course, the object of consciousness continuously changes, in the sense of changing from one dhamma to another. But the object does not change in itself. Jon #84887 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan jonoabb Hi Ken kenhowardau wrote: > One of my questions that failed to impress K Sujin was about whether > the word 'dana' referred to a concept or a reality. > The word 'dana' refers to a reality, namely, a particular kind of kusala citta. > To my mind, if > dana was a reality it could only exist for one moment of > consciousness. > Well, the citta that is dana does exist for only one moment of consciousness. I think your problem concerns the conventional term 'act of dana'. An act of dana, like any other conventional act, requires a multitude of moments for its completion. That is the conventional-language way of referring to this particular dhamma. > PS: Another of my questions was about the sense of smell. Is there > smelling-consciousness at all times of the day - even when we can't > notice any particular aroma? The answer, to my surprise, was 'No, > there isn't.' I'd like to check the audio recording, but my recollection is that the answer was not so categorical, and was something along the lines of: if it doesn't appear now, what use is it to speculate as to whether or not it's occurring (but not apparent). Jon #84888 From: Sukinder Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan sukinderpal Hi Ken, As I said, reading your posts on DSG have on many occasions inspired a desire to meet and talk Dhamma with you in person. And even though it was somewhat difficult for me to appreciate what you were getting at with all this at first, as far as I am concerned even with that, the inspiration received was more than I expected.;-) Your so called 'theorizing' what ever this means for you, for me it is only my own unwillingness to keep the concept vs. reality distinction at the forefront of my mind which sometimes is the problem; not what you have to say about the matter. So thank you very much for all your comments. ================================= > > On my last day at the Foundation (the day after you and Lodevijk > returned home) there was some discussion of smelling and tasting > consciousnesses. To my surprise, K Sujin and others seemed to be > saying there was no smelling or tasting "now." > > This went against my understanding. As I have just explained, I have > always understood KS and the texts to be saying that experiences > occur at all six doorways (one at a time) billions of times every > second. We can't know any particular one of them. It might seem to us > that there is no smelling or tasting now, but how are we to know? > Wouldn't that be just thinking? > You know all these points already and this is likely from my own confusion that I state this, but then I expect that you will help me to sort it out, . ;-) I think one of the important beginning steps to understanding the Dhamma is to know the difference between concept and reality. For this to happen beyond just 'theory', understanding the difference between sense-door experience and the following mind-door activity must arise. In other words, 'seeing' or 'visible object' is understood to be different from the following 'thinking' about what is seen. Of course this will happen only at the pariyatti level at first (and for a long, long time more), and I don't think that A. Sujin expects this stage to be bypassed with the intention to inspire the actual knowing of the "characteristic" of seeing / visible object or patipatti. And given that this is necessary to happen over and again, and given that our "thinking" is based largely on eye-door experience, the reminder about seeing / visible object becomes pertinent, I think. If there is hardly any thinking / proliferation with regard to smell, there won't be much opportunity for making the reality / concept distinction with regard to this as much as there is with seeing. And while there is opportunity for the one to be understood even now as we continue to theorize about the other, this particular 'theory' can possibly then become a hindrance as well, don't you think? But of course, from your own perspective, it is the theory about the 'frequency of seeing over other doorways' which could act as a hindrance being something based on "my" experience of things as against what "in reality" might be the case. But I don't think this necessarily follows. After all, to be saying that seeing arises more frequently may as well be a statement about the frequency of 'thinking about seeing' and this becomes relevant at a point of time when the reality / concept distinction has yet to be understood well enough. So do we have to interpret A. Sujin's reminder as denying the arising of other sense door experience, or is she simply drawing the attention to what *can* be understood now? And would all this be going at the expense of possibly knowing other realities and appear similar to 'formal practice' or is it in fact a reminder about understanding only that which "appears"? Besides if understanding arises for example, to know so called 'background noise', would anyone doubt or deny this. But given that there has never been any understanding about seeing and the thinking which follows and which undeniably does happen all day, what is the chance that one might come to know these other sense door experiences anyway? If "reminders" are to be what they are meant to be, would it make sense to be reminded about experiences that are hardly ever registered? Am I totally confused? I do feel quite muddle headed at this point, so I'll await your response. :-] Metta, Sukin > I suggested to K Sujin that, were I to put on strong-smelling > aftershave (for example) I would be able to smell it for a while, but > soon I would not be unable to notice it at all (even though other > people who entered the room would). To my mind this doesn't mean > smelling has stopped happening at the paramattha level. Billions of > smelling-cittas are coming and going every second, but there are no > conditions for thinking very much about them. There may be conditions > for brief thoughts about them, but none significant enough for me to > remember and put into words. > > But, no, K Sujin seemed to be saying, "Can you smell anything now? > No? Then there aren't any conditions for smelling now. There is no > smelling now!" > > As I was saying; this was all too conventional to my way of thinking, > and it came as a bit of a shock. It still does! :-) > > Ken H > #84889 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:21 pm Subject: Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' onco111 Hi Ken H, I'm moving your last sentence to the top: > Are you convinced now? :-) I'm convinced that we disagree! And that's fine. ... > The 'models' that we study are actually paramattha dhammas. That is > to say, they are concepts of paramattha dhammas. They have to be > precise. The more closely they are understood the closer we get to > direct understanding. Therefore, I don't believe that there is a > giant leap between theoretical understanding and direct understanding > (something we discussed at the Foundation). I suspect that > understanding of concepts-of-dhammas becomes so strong and firm that > there is a natural, inevitable, progression to direct understanding > of dhammas. My understanding is that the difference between direct understanding and theoretical understanding is striking, profound; and that no amount of studying-concept-as-meditation-practice makes direct understanding arise. When the understanding does arise, though, preparatory concept- studying helps with the consolidation of past-arisen insight. Different, eh? -Dan #84890 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:32 am Subject: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Question: The Buddha spoke more in general about slaying anger, but he did not explain the way how to slay anger. Khun Sujin: The Buddha taught the Dhamma in many different ways and in all details so that people could see the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala. He taught the development of paññå which can slay anger completely. Question: Anger can be slain. Through the development of vipassanå anger can be slain and through the development of samatha it can be suppressed. The development of samatha and the development of vipassanå are different, they have different aims. I have read in the “Book of Analysis”, in the chapter on Jhåna (Chapter XII), that if someone wants to purify the mind of the hindrances he must sit and he must walk up and down. He must do this in order to have right effort which is necessary for the suppressing of the hindrances. Someone who develops vipassanå, however, does not have to sit or walk up and down in order to have right effort. Whenever an object appears right understanding can know its characteristic, and then there is already right effort, which is energy for the development of understanding. Thus the development of samatha and the development of vipassanå are different. The person who develops samatha has to follow particular rules. Khun Sujin: Where does he begin and how does he develop it? Question: He starts with reciting words. Khun Sujin: He should start with right understanding of the characteristic of the meditation subject of samatha. This subject must condition the citta to be calm, to be free from akusala. Sati sampajañña (sati and pa~n~naa) is needed to develop calm in the right way with the meditation subject. Question: The person who develops samatha in order to attain jhåna must concentrate on the meditation subject so that calm and concentration can increase. Khun Sujin: That is too far-fetched, it is not related to the reality which can be experienced now, by the person who is only a beginner. Can you notice the characteristic of aversion in your daily life? The brahmin Bhåradvåja asked theBuddha, “What must we slay if we would live happily?” The Buddha answered, “Wrath must you slay if you would live happily, wrath must you slay if you would weep no more”. When people are in daily life busy with their work, are there no problems and unpleasant experiences in connection with their work, with the people they meet in their work or with their colleagues? During our work we are together with other people and then there can be the arising of like and dislike, we may be distressed, annoyed, displeased or sad. Whenever you feel displeasure there is dosa, and this has many shades and degrees. We must slay dosa when it arises in the situation of our daily life, not at some other time. When we can subdue dosa in daily life there is a degree of calm or samatha. When we see the disadvantages of dosa we know that there should be mettå instead of akusala. Mettå can arise at that moment if we develop it right away and do not delay its development until later on. Thus, when there are difficult situations or when problems arise in our work, contrary to our expectations, when there are events which cause discomfort or even distress, and we can then slay dosa, there will be happiness instead of sorrow. ******* Nina. #84891 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Howard, Thanks for continuing the discussion: ------ <. . .> H: > I distinguish between experiencing something and it's "consciously registering." ------ I wouldn't put it that way. Experiencing is consciousness, and therefore all experience "registers" in consciousness. We may *think* some doesn't register. After that it gets difficult for me: I really don't have any other explanations or theories to explain subliminal consciousness in Abhidhamma terms. --------------- <. . . > H: > I also consider the case that one, for a period of time, literally lacks the operation of a sense door -perhaps the nose door, due to a number of alternative reasons. In this case, within that given mind stream, there will be no "smelling-cittas ... coming and going every second" at all. There will be no nose-door function, no olfactory consciousness, and no olfactory contact. --------------- I can see that that is one possibility. Another would be that there were billions of every kind of sense-door process but no thinking about some of them. And I suppose there are other possibilities too. :-) Ken H #84892 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:15 am Subject: Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Larry, ------- <. . .> KH: > > I am being told that dana must entail > multiple cittas "because there has to be the picking up of the gift, > the offering, the acceptance of it and the actual transfer of the > gift (etc, etc)." It's as if the story has some efficacy in its own > right. Larry: > I think it is more a matter of a concept that is meant to refer to a group of related realities, like "citta process". ---------- Yes, the similarity with citta-processes was raised in the Kaeng Krajan discussions too. People are trying to point out something that I just can't see. I should say that I am not as obsessed by this as I might seem to be. I am beginning to wish I had never even mentioned it. I wouldn't want to give the impression that there has been any "parting of the ways" or anything like that. :-) ---------------- <. . .> Larry: > Did you mean "alobha cetasika performs the function of generosity"? ---------------- Woops, yes I did mean alobha. ------------------------ <. . .> KH: > > Yes, and I would have thought there could be continual background > noises, smells and tastes (etc) that we can't notice until they > suddenly stop. But maybe that only happens in conventional reality. > Larry: > Don't know. If you want to pursue this you might cultivate tranquility. It greatly increases one's awareness of subtle experience. ------------------------- There we disagree. Tranquillity accompanies kusala consciousness, and kusala is practised for the sake of kusala - not for the sake of gaining something. --------------- <. . .> KH: > > satipatthana has no relation to > the kind of mindfulness that helps us cross a street. It is > mindfulness of paramattha dhammas only. Larry: > I don't think you can cross a street without attention to paramattha dhammas. Try it with your eyes closed. -------------- 'Attention to paramattha dhammas' or 'attention to concepts?' I think you must mean the latter: very few people have even heard of paramattha dhammas! -------------------- L: > Satipatthana is more than that but it can definitely be found in ordinary experience. -------------------- Again I disagree: there is nothing ordinary about satipatthana. :-) Ken H #84893 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Nina, ------------- N: > Best regards from Lodewijk, and he said he so much appreciated meeting you in person. ------------- Thank you Nina and Lodewjk it was very nice to meet you too. You were exactly the way I imagined you to be. I'm not sure the same can be said for me: I think some people were disappointed to find a meek and mild Ken H. Apparently, my internet persona is more fierce and dangerous. :-) --------------------------- N: > I am thinking about your points, and noticed you even used the word spooky. I am sorry and wish I can do something. --------------------------- There's nothing to be sorry about. As I remember, I used the word 'spooky' to describe the sense of immediacy in Ajahn's talks. It is quite unlike the academic book-study that I am more used to. (Spooky was a silly word though. I should have thought of something more appropriate.) :-) ----------------------------------- N: >Perhaps you notice that the word 'appear' is used often. Visible object appears now, seeing appears now. Why not the term 'arise'? Because when it appears and shows its characteristic, it has arisen already. Off hand I would say: we should keep it simple and not think of the billions of cittas. Of course countless moments of seeing arise and fall away, there is seeing again and again. Is there seeing now? This reminds us to attend to its characteristic, it has a specific characteristic different from hearing. We could not pinpoint the exact now, but this does not matter. When we become more familiar with different characteristics, we can learn that they are mere dhammas that are not ours. That is the purpose. ----------------------------- Yes, I agree of course. Sorry if I gave a different impression. Ken H > Perhaps you may appreciate the Kindred Sayings, Kindred Sayings on > Sense. Concise suttas, very much to the point. > Perhaps you read Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, but when you reread > it, it may answer many of your questions on citta and doorways. > Especially the chapters on citta. If you like to discuss this > subject, it is very easy to use Rob's Web Abhidhamma, to quote from. > Thinking of subliminal experiences or weak experiences does not help, > I am afraid. > We should not think too much when Kh Sujin says: is there seeing now, > is there hearing now? Just attend to different characteristics, that > is all. > > Nina. #84894 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Jon) - In a message dated 4/19/2008 8:05:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... quotes Jon: It has no essence of its > own. It is merely conditionally relative and continuously altering in > conformity to conditional circumstances. Here you seem to introduce vocabulary not found in the texts: states as "conditionally relative" and "continuously altering in conformity to conditional circumstances"to conditional circumstances". As far a not alter; they simply arise and fall away. ...................................................................... TG: This view above is a huge misreading IMO. It is the core problem that I see in the interpretation of Dhamma as I have described above. The idea of "continual alteration" is replete throughout the suttas. So I think it is exactly THIS point that causes the huge problems that we would have with each others view. Granted, we may see many things very closely, but this point is crucial. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I've adopted the position that the conflict of "continual alteration" versus "rise and fall" disappears when it is considered that rise and fall is an instantaneous and iner-affecting event. Change is constant, arising and ceasing instantaneously occurring, and due to the interdependence of phenomena as opposed to their self-existence/own-being, the cessation or creation of any aspect or quality of anything anywhere, any cessation or arising, is a change in everything. ------------------------------------------------------------------- The Buddha has compared conditionality to an ocean wave that swells and recedes. He has given example of stone mountain crags wearing away due to soft cloth rubbing against it, the ships rotting away (due to the elements) over time, an adze handles wearing away over time. Now, I think you'll come up with reasons to reject these, so I'll post some stuff and please respond directly to the crucial "altering" factors within the quotes... "...his body, consisting of form, composed of the four great elements, originating from mother and father, built up out of rice and gruel, SUBJECT TO IMPERMANENCE, TO BEING WORN AND RUBBED AWAY, TO BREAKING APART, AND DISPERSAL." (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Vol 2, page 1808. Samyutta Nikaya Book Five.) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As regards this material: If it is the aggregation we call "a body" that is being referred to here, something that Jon and others think does not exist at all and is mere concept, then, being mere concept, IT DOES NOT CHANGE according to the received view of concepts on DSG, and this passage contradicts that view. If, on the other hand, what is being referred to as "subject to impermanence, to be worn and rubbed away, to breaking apart, and dispersal" are elements of so-called earth (hardness), air (movement), fire (temperature), and water (cohesion and flowing), the fundamental body-door rupas (or mind-door in the case of water) , then this passage suggests constant arising & ceasing of these dhammas, which amounts to continuous, "flowing" alteration of them. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's another translation... “Imposthume, brethren, is a term for body, of the four elements compounded, of parents sprung, on rice and gruel fed, impermanent, of a nature to be worn away, pounded away, broken and scattered.â€? (The Buddha . . . Book of the Kindred Sayings (KS), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 4, pg. 50) “Monks, consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad. And how, monks, does consciousness come to be in dependence on a dyad? In dependence on eye and forms there arises eye-consciousness. The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. “Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? “The meeting, the encounter, the occurrence of these three things is called eye-contact. Eye-contact too is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-contact is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-contact has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? “Contacted, monks, one feels, contacted one intends, contacted one perceives. Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. [The Buddha proceeds to analyze the ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness in the same manner and finishes with...] “It is in such a way, monks, that consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1172) In order to keep it relatively simple, I'll just post these three quotes. Please deal with these terms.... "MOVING AND TOTTERING, IMPERMANENT, CHANGING, BECOMING OTHERWISE " and "TO BEING WORN AND RUBBED AWAY, TO BREAKING APART, AND DISPERSAL." The first quote (immediately above) deals with the 18 elements and their outgrowths. The second deals with the Four Great Elements. Now when I read what the Suttas say above and what you have written below, I really don't know where you're coming from ... but I figure the "Ultimate Realities with Its Own Characteristic" from commentarial sources, has corrupted what is really just common sense, and quite frankly, laid out pretty clearly by the Buddha. My summation is this... Element, aggregates, or any conditioned phenomena are never for a moment "their own" thing. They are continually changing and our idea of them is a mere "perceptual-reference-point." Our PERCEPTION of these things is the only thing that thinks "they have their own characteristics." This is a delusion. Ultimately and in truth, they do not. They are coreless and vacant and continuously altering in accordance to conditional forces. Any attachment to phenomena, including any idea of "their reality" is grounds for suffering. Yet the investigation of phenomena needs to continue until attachment is ended. TG OUT ================================ With metta, Howard #84895 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:16 am Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive upasaka_howard Hi again, TG & Jon - In a message dated 4/20/2008 8:49:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: I've adopted the position that the conflict of "continual alteration" versus "rise and fall" disappears when it is considered that rise and fall is an instantaneous and iner-affecting event. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I meant to write 'inter-affecting'. Also, my meaning was unclear. I mean that there is an interdependency among coexistent phenomena, and an alteration in one is alteration in all, because dhammas are things-in-relation as opposed to things-in-isolation. ========================= With metta, Howard #84896 From: "connie" Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:34 am Subject: Perfections Corner (128) nichiconn Dear Friends, The generosity chapter continues: When someone does not give, he may reflect on it; he may realize that he did not accumulate generosity and that, from now on, he will try to accumulate it. Or, he realizes that the things he could give are defective or scarce because he did not give in the past, and that he from now on, even though he has little, should give. We read further on: "When a reluctance to give arises due to the excellence or beauty of the object to be given, the Great Being admonishes himself: 'Good man, haven't you made the aspiration for the supreme enlightenment, the loftiest and most superior of all states? Well then, for the sake of enlightenment, it is proper for you to give excellent and beautiful objects as gifts.' Thus he gives what is excellent and beautiful, generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishing, one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and in sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the third shackle to giving." Sometimes when a person regrets it to give something away, he should consider what he really wants: does he want to keep that object or does he want to realize the four noble Truths? Reflection in this way could be a condition for the arising of generosity and at that moment a shackle to generosity is destroyed. We read: "When the Great Being is giving a gift, and he sees the loss of the object being given, he reflects thus: 'This is the nature of material possessions, that they are subject to loss and to passing away. Moreover, it is because I did not give such gifts in the past that my possessions are now depleted. Let me then give whatever I have as a gift, whether it be limited or abundant. In that way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the perfection of giving.' Thus he gives whatever he has as a gift; generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishing, one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the fourth shackle to giving." Some people believe that when they give things away their possessions will vanish, but in reality, it is already in the nature of possessions to vanish. No matter whether we give or do not give, when it is the right time for our possessions to vanish, they will disappear. Some people who have many possessions fear that if they do not share them out they will vanish, and therefore, they believe that they should rather give them away. When calamities are caused by fire, inundation or robbers, or when possessions are confiscated by kings, one may regret it that one did not give things away. We can see that possessions do not vanish because of giving, but that it depends on kamma whether one has possessions or whether one loses them. connie #84897 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:55 am Subject: Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan lbidd2 Hi Ken, Larry:"If you want to pursue this you might cultivate tranquility. It greatly increases one's awareness of subtle experience." Ken: "There we disagree. Tranquillity accompanies kusala consciousness, and kusala is practiced for the sake of kusala - not for the sake of gaining something." ----------------------- Larry: I think this is something you have to experience for yourself. You can't get it by reasoning through the concepts. I can read a book and tell you what happens when you surf, but really I have no idea. ------------------------ Larry: "I don't think you can cross a street without attention to paramattha dhammas. Try it with your eyes closed." Ken: "'Attention to paramattha dhammas' or 'attention to concepts?' I think you must mean the latter: very few people have even heard of paramattha dhammas!" ------------------------ Larry: I'm not following you. A concept can't be the object of eye consciousness. Also I had a thought on "conventional reality". It seems to me that conventional reality is composed of ultimate realities. Otherwise it couldn't be said to be "reality". A dollar is a rupa group that is perceived as a sign of desirableness. The exchange of dollars for goods and services is a very complex stream of realities. Insight can penetrate this but it has to begin with penetrating the present experience. There is also the imaginary. At the moment I am only imagining a dollar. I don't have a real one in view. There are very elaborate distinctions between imaginary and real dollars. Conventional reality isn't imaginary, but it is usually skimmed over and taken for granted. Larry #84898 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:56 am Subject: Re: TYPO Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... In a message dated 4/20/2008 7:16:45 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: I meant to write 'inter-affecting'Howard: I meant to write 'inter-affect mean that there is an interdependency among coexistent phenomena, and an alteration in one is alteration in all, because dhammas are things-in-relation as opposed to things-in-isolationo ========================= With metta, Howard ............................................... Hi Howard This is absolutely right. Hence our discussion earlier and my belief in "simultaneous alteration." I.E., ...one phenomenon does not just cause another phenomenon to change, but both are changing simultaneously and in relation to each other...given the same moment in time. (Though no such thing as "one phenomenon" I am using it just for illustration.) Howard, does what you wrote above sound a lot like the title of my paper? -- Inter-Displacing Conditional Relativity TG #84899 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Howard, All In a message dated 4/20/2008 6:49:23 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: "...his body, consisting of form, composed of the four great elements, originating from mother and father, built up out of rice and gruel, SUBJECT TO IMPERMANENCE, TO BEING WORN AND RUBBED AWAY, TO BREAKING APART, AND DISPERSAL." (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Vol 2, page 1808. Samyutta Nikaya Book Five.) ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As regards this material: If it is the aggregation we call "a body" that is being referred to here, something that Jon and others think does not exist at all and is mere concept, then, being mere concept, IT DOES NOT CHANGE according to the received view of concepts on DSG, and this passage contradicts that view. If, on the other hand, what is being referred to as "subject to impermanence, to be worn and rubbed away, to breaking apart, and dispersal" are elements of so-called earth (hardness), air (movement), fire (temperature)elemen water (cohesion and flowing), the fundamental body-door rupas (or mind-door in the case of water) , then this passage suggests constant arising & ceasing of these dhammas, which amounts to continuous, "flowing" alteration of them. ..................................................................... Right again Howard. Either way you slice the above statement, its going to make some of the prevailing beliefs here in DSG wrong. My approach was to deal with the Four Great Elements which is what the Buddha here is saying "the body" consists of. Then, by doing so, one can only reasonable conclude that the Four Great Elements are "continuously altering." In fact, I believe it is the Four Great Elements "themselves" that are doing the "wearing and rubbing." Flowing is a very nice word. All conditions are flowing like a stream and in accordance to "their" momentums... i.e., conditional momentums. "Many Firm objects (perceived as objects)" are flowing so slowing that we tend to view them as "isolated events/things" when in fact they are not. TG #84900 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:22 am Subject: Re: TYPO Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 4/20/2008 11:57:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: Howard: I meant to write 'inter-affect mean that there is an interdependency among coexistent phenomena, and an alteration in one is alteration in all, because dhammas are things-in-relation as opposed to things-in-isolationo ========================= With metta, Howard ............................................... Hi Howard This is absolutely right. Hence our discussion earlier and my belief in "simultaneous alteration." I.E., ...one phenomenon does not just cause another phenomenon to change, but both are changing simultaneously and in relation to each other...given the same moment in time. (Though no such thing as "one phenomenon" I am using it just for illustration.) Howard, does what you wrote above sound a lot like the title of my paper? -- Inter-Displacing Conditional Relativity ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, it does. :-) ---------------------------------------------------- TG ========================= With metta, Howard #84901 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:09 am Subject: Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Nina, Again, the opposition to reciting, sitting, walking, in favor of understanding, seems a bit forced and confrontational to me. Many people, when they are angry need to "count to ten" before they are calm enough to consider things more sensibly. Obviously, such counting isn't the way to "slay anger" permanently, but sometimes, and for some people, there can be no hope of understanding until a bit of calm has been regained. Similarly, it would seem that sitting, walking, reciting, meditating--so long as they are seen as means rather than an ends could also be a helpful propaedeutic to understanding. Why not? As I said before, recitation of excellent texts may be just what is needed to keep reasonable positions in the forefront even when one becomes horribly angry over some incident during the day. In any case, as I've said, the either-or attitude exhibited here seems to me unnecessarily combative. If sitting, reciting, etc. help some people to achieve metta (and surely it has and does), why should there be any opposition to it? Best, W #84902 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. nilovg Dear Walto, Op 20-apr-2008, om 19:09 heeft Walter Horn het volgende geschreven: > In any case, as I've said, the either-or attitude exhibited here > seems to me unnecessarily combative. If sitting, reciting, etc. > help some people to achieve metta (and surely it has and does), why > should there be any opposition to it? ------ N: I do not see this as opposition, but rather, Kh Sujin goes to the root of the matter. Recitation of excellent texts is also good, but what about daily life, in a situation which is difficult? I like this one: and do not delay its development until later on. Thus, when there are > difficult situations or when problems arise in our work, contrary to > our expectations, when there are events which cause discomfort or > even distress, and we can then slay dosa, there will be happiness > instead of sorrow.> Not delaying the development of metta. And in our work, when we are with other people. That is the point she stresses. Nina. #84903 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan nilovg Hi Larry and Ken H, Op 20-apr-2008, om 17:55 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > Larry: "I don't think you can cross a street without attention to > paramattha dhammas. Try > it with your eyes closed." > > Ken: "'Attention to paramattha dhammas' or 'attention to concepts?' > I think > you must mean the latter: very few people have even heard of > paramattha dhammas!" --------- N: Larry means: there is hardness, there is sound and these are paramattha dhammas, but, people may not know that they are paramattha dhammas, mere dhammas arisen because of conditions. Dhammas in daily life arise and fall away all the time, for everybody, but it is not known that they are dhammas. They are taken for things or persons which are lasting. Nina. #84904 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:59 am Subject: Fwd: Beginner's Abhidhamma nilovg Forwarded message. > Van: Nina van Gorkom > Datum: 20 april 2008 20:58:26 GMT+02:00 > Aan: Tep Sastri > Onderwerp: Antw.: Beginner's Abhidhamma > > Dear Tep, > I am just back from Bangkok. > Op 20-apr-2008, om 19:48 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > >> I have a thought about the Abhidhamma Pitaka while studying Book 1 >> and Book 2. These two books are to me nothing but commentaries. Do >> you see them differently or not? > ------- > N: the texts are concise and these texts have commentaries: Co. to > the Dhammasangani is the atthasaalinii, and of the Vibhanga: > asamoha vinodanii. The vibhanga has many good examples from daily > life and is not so concise. > -------- > T: Further, I find them difficult to understand because the Thai > version usually gives no rendition for many difficult-and-long Pali > terms. Do you have a suggestion for me to lessen, if not overcome, > this difficulty? > ------- > N: Learning Pali, but that takes time. Use the Pali dictionary to > begin with. > --------- > T: For today my focus is on the jhana and magga. > The terms 'vitakka' that appears in the definition of the 1st jhana > seems to be very much the same as 'samma sankappa' and 'nekkhamma- > dhatu' . Is your understanding similar to mine? An implication I > see is that the 1st jhana is a supporting condition for Stream-entry. > > > > The basis for the above thought is found in the following quotes > from the www.84000.org Web site. > > Book 1 page 29. > พระุ ิธรรมปิฎà¸? เล่มที่ > ๑ ธรรมสังคณีปà¸?รณ์ > > [๒๒] วิตà¸? มีในสมัยนั้น > เป็นไฉน? > ความตรึà¸? ความตรึà¸?ุ¢à¹ˆà¸²à¸‡ > à¹?รง ความดำริ ความที่จิต > à¹?นบุ¢à¸¹à¹ˆà¹ƒà¸™à¸¸²à¸£à¸¡à¸“์ ความ > ที่จิตà¹?นบสนิท > ุ¢à¸¹à¹ˆà¹ƒà¸™à¸¸²à¸£à¸¡à¸“์ ความยà¸? > จิตขึ้นสูุ่²à¸£à¸¡à¸“์ สัมมา > สังà¸?ัปปะ ในสมัยนั้น ุ±à¸™ > ใด นี้ชืุ่§à¹ˆà¸² วิตà¸?มีใน > สมัยนั้น. > ---------- > N: It lifts citta to the object. Actually: it touches or hits the > object so that citta can know it. > ................................. > Book 2 page 124 > พระุ ิธรรมปิฎà¸? เล่มที่ > ๒ วิภังคปà¸?รณ์ > http://www.84000.org/tipitaka/pitaka3/v.php?B=35&A=2873&Z=2986 > [๑๗๗] สัมมาสังà¸?ัปปะ เป็น > ไฉน > ความตรึà¸? ความตรึà¸? > ุ¢à¹ˆà¸²à¸‡à¹?รง ฯลฯ ความดำริ > ชุš ุ±à¸™à¹€à¸›à¹‡à¸™à¸¸‡à¸„์à¹?ห่ง > มรรค นับเนืุ่‡à¹ƒà¸™à¸¡à¸£à¸£à¸„ > ุ±à¸™à¹ƒà¸” นี้เรียà¸?ว่า > สัมมาสังà¸?ัปปะ > ............................... > N: Right thinking of the Path: this is actually together with right > view the wisdom of the eightfold Path. Vitakka touches the object > so that right view (pa`n`naa) can know it as it is. > ---------- > Book 2 Page 122 > http://www.84000.org/tipitaka/pitaka3/v.php?B=35&A=2204&Z=2251 > เนà¸?ขัมมธาตุ เป็นไฉน > ความตรึà¸? ความตรึà¸? > ุ¢à¹ˆà¸²à¸‡à¹?รง ุ±à¸™à¸›à¸£à¸°à¸?ุšà¸”้วย > เนà¸?ขัมมะ ฯลฯ สัมมา > สังà¸?ัปปะ นี้เรียà¸?ว่า > เนà¸?ขัมมธาตุ à¸?ุศลธรรม > à¹?ม้ทั้งหมด à¸?็เรียà¸?ว่า > เนà¸?ขัมมธาตุ > .............................. > N: Nekhamma dhaatu, the element of renunciation, which is the > opposite of covetousness. All kusala dhammas are nekhamma dhaatu, > as the text says. > When kusala is performed there is renunciation, of any form of > attachment, attachment to one's own confort. One takes the trouble > to perform kusala and does not find it tiresome. One does not think > of having some advantage for oneself, such as a good rest! > ---------- > T: 1st jhana: > "There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, > withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the > first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied > by directed thought and evaluation. > > ------ > > N: evaluation must be the translation of vicaara, sustained > thought. At the first stage of jhaana one still needs vitakka and > vicaara to experience with absorption the meditation subject. > > I repeat what you said: The terms 'vitakka' that appears in the > definition of the 1st jhana seems to be very much the same as > 'samma sankappa' and 'nekkhamma-dhatu' . Is your understanding > similar to mine? > > N: Indeed when we read about right thinking it also includes right > thinking in jhaana. And it is renunciation, as it is included in > all kusala that are nekkhamma dhaatu. > > T: An implication I see is that the 1st jhana is a supporting > condition for Stream-entry. > > ------- > > N: I think we have to make a differentiation here. When someone > develops jhaana and also vipassanaa, he can be aware of the > jhaanafactors after emerging from jhaana and see these as > impermanent, or dukkha, or anattaa. In such a case jhaana is a > basis or proximate cause for vipassanaa. > > ............................... > > Nina. #84905 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 20-apr-2008, om 12:45 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > There's nothing to be sorry about. As I remember, I used the > word 'spooky' to describe the sense of immediacy in Ajahn's talks. It > is quite unlike the academic book-study that I am more used to. ------ N: well said. It is different from what people generally expect and therefore, some may feel put off and they think that their questions were not answered as they expected. One must get the feel of it. Good you bring this up, that is why people misunderstand. Do not regret what you brought up, these were really useful points to further discuss. As to daana, an addition. We read in the co. (and sutta?) that there are three periods (kala) for daana: before the actual giving when you consider with kusala cittas what you will give, the moments of actual giving and the recollection of it afterwards. An example is the preparation of the repositories of the relics to be given in Gaya, and afterwards people looked at the pictures, recollecting and appreciating the kusala. But dana is of the sensuous plane and thus it is called paritta, insignificant. There is also seeing and on account of what is seen attachment is bound to arise. Kusala cittas alternate with akusala cittas. Really a good reminder. We like the gems and enjoy looking at them. Nina. #84906 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Jon, ------------------ KH: > > One of my questions that failed to impress K Sujin was about whether > the word 'dana' referred to a concept or a reality. > > J: > The word 'dana' refers to a reality, namely, a particular kind of kusala citta. ------------------- That's exactly what I was trying to say at Kaeng Krajan. But others seemed to look at me as if I was speaking a foreign language! Where were when I needed you? :-) ----------------------------- KH: > > To my mind, if > dana was a reality it could only exist for one moment of > consciousness. > > J: > Well, the citta that is dana does exist for only one moment of consciousness. I think your problem concerns the conventional term 'act of dana'. An act of dana, like any other conventional act, requires a multitude of moments for its completion. That is the conventional-language way of referring to this particular dhamma. ------------------------------ Yes, and I would have said there was no need to ask, "Is there really - out there in the external world - a group of [temperature produced] rupas known as "a gift" that is picked up by a group of [kamma produced] rupas known as "a person (the giver)" and transferred to another group of kamma-produced rupas known as "the recipient?" I would have said, "No, there is no need to either assert or deny the existence of such concepts: all we need to know are the dhammas that arise at any given moment." (Or, more specifically still, "all we need to know is any dhamma that might have become the object of consciousness now.") Talk of dana's requiring multiple cittas (or a series of related cittas) is not helpful. There are never multiple cittas, and there is no series of related cittas! BTW, I am not kidding myself: I do know that all (or almost all) of the people at those meetings knew more about namas and rupas than I did. My problem was purely with their way of talking about them. (In this particular instance.) --------------------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > PS: Another of my questions was about the sense of smell. Is there > smelling-consciousness at all times of the day - even when we can't > notice any particular aroma? The answer, to my surprise, was 'No, > there isn't.' I'd like to check the audio recording, but my recollection is that the answer was not so categorical, and was something along the lines of: if it doesn't appear now, what use is it to speculate as to whether or not it's occurring (but not apparent). ---------------------------------------- Thanks, that would have been a good answer. Better late than never!:-) That is: better "that I listen properly to the answer" late rather than never. :-) Ken H #84907 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:22 pm Subject: Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Sukin ------------- <. . .> S: > As I said, reading your posts on DSG have on many occasions inspired a desire to meet and talk Dhamma with you in person. And even though it was somewhat difficult for me to appreciate what you were getting at with all this at first, as far as I am concerned even with that, the inspiration received was more than I expected.;-) ---------------- You are too kind: the pleasure (and inspiration) was all mine! --------------------------- S: > Your so called 'theorizing' what ever this means for you, for me it is only my own unwillingness to keep the concept vs. reality distinction at the forefront of my mind which sometimes is the problem; not what you have to say about the matter. So thank you very much for all your comments. --------------------------- I think I see what you mean. I received some puzzled looks at the meetings, and I got the impression I had gone off track (lost the plot) in my efforts to keep everything on topic (on the topic of conditioned namas and rupas). KH (to Nina): > > On my last day at the Foundation (the day after you and Lodevijk > returned home) there was some discussion of smelling and tasting > consciousnesses. To my surprise, K Sujin and others seemed to be > saying there was no smelling or tasting "now." > > This went against my understanding. As I have just explained, I have > always understood KS and the texts to be saying that experiences > occur at all six doorways (one at a time) billions of times every > second. We can't know any particular one of them. It might seem to us > that there is no smelling or tasting now, but how are we to know? > Wouldn't that be just thinking? > S: > You know all these points already and this is likely from my own confusion that I state this, but then I expect that you will help me to sort it out, . ;-) I think one of the important beginning steps to understanding the Dhamma is to know the difference between concept and reality. For this to happen beyond just 'theory', understanding the difference between sense-door experience and the following mind-door activity must arise. ----------------- Once again; it is very kind of you to be putting it this way. But I am the one with the confusion, and you are the one sorting it out. So I take your point about sense-door experience v. thinking about it. ------------------------- S: > In other words, 'seeing' or 'visible object' is understood to be different from the following 'thinking' about what is seen. Of course this will happen only at the pariyatti level at first (and for a long, long time more), and I don't think that A. Sujin expects this stage to be bypassed with the intention to inspire the actual knowing of the "characteristic" of seeing / visible object or patipatti. And given that this is necessary to happen over and again, and given that our "thinking" is based largely on eye-door experience, the reminder about seeing / visible object becomes pertinent, I think. ------------------------- OK, . . . . (trying to think clearly) . . . but there has to be more going on than just constant reminders, doesn't there? I mean, anyone can say "What about seeing now? What about visible object?" I still feel I was missing something that others were not missing. Actually, that is not quite right because I did understand seeing and visible object in a slightly more imminent (immediate, dramatic, imperative?) way than I usually do. (And no, I am not going to use that silly word spooky again.) :-) ---------------------------------- S: > If there is hardly any thinking / proliferation with regard to smell, there won't be much opportunity for making the reality / concept distinction with regard to this as much as there is with seeing. ---------------------------------- I see! (No pun intended.) That does make sense. But when Ajhan answers [perfectly reasonable] questions in such unexpected (almost unco-operative) ways I can't help feeling I am missing out on something important that she is trying to tell me. But I digress. Your point is that the difference between sense- experience and thinking has to be appreciated now. And (given ordinary circumstances) seeing is a more relevant sense-experience now than is smelling. --------------------------- S: > And while there is opportunity for the one to be understood even now as we continue to theorize about the other, this particular 'theory' can possibly then become a hindrance as well, don't you think? ----------------------------- Yes, I think I see what you mean. ------------------- S: > But of course, from your own perspective, it is the theory about the 'frequency of seeing over other doorways' which could act as a hindrance being something based on "my" experience of things as against what "in reality" might be the case. ------------------- Yes, exactly! I have been trained to be suspicious of anything associated with me that is, at the same time, purported to be associated with the Dhamma. Blame DSG for that! :-) Visible objects, audible objects, olfactory objects (etc) appear constantly (as the fruits of past kamma) throughout the day. Some become the object of considerable amounts of thinking, and some don't. In other words, some become 'all about me' and some don't. As I see the matter, it is important to know that dhammas are arising at *each* of the sense doors (one at a time, of course). Something was said at the meeting (I forgot what it was) that suggested that smelling and tasting were only occurring when we were able to consciously (if that is the right word) recognise them. And so I asked, "Is there smelling now?" I was surprised by the answer. (I don't remember the exact answer, but I took it to be "No.") It seemed a bit too conventional. But you are doing your best to explain that answer, and I think I am following you. ----------------------------- S: > But I don't think this necessarily follows. After all, to be saying that seeing arises more frequently may as well be a statement about the frequency of 'thinking about seeing' and this becomes relevant at a point of time when the reality / concept distinction has yet to be understood well enough. So do we have to interpret A. Sujin's reminder as denying the arising of other sense door experience, or is she simply drawing the attention to what *can* be understood now? And would all this be going at the expense of possibly knowing other realities and appear similar to 'formal practice' or is it in fact a reminder about understanding only that which "appears"? ----------------------------- Good point! I think that is what Nina was saying in her reply: < N: Why not the term 'arise'? Because when it appears and shows its characteristic, it has arisen already.> This is not easy! ---------------------- S: > Besides if understanding arises for example, to know so called 'background noise', would anyone doubt or deny this. But given that there has never been any understanding about seeing and the thinking which follows and which undeniably does happen all day, what is the chance that one might come to know these other sense door experiences anyway? If "reminders" are to be what they are meant to be, would it make sense to be reminded about experiences that are hardly ever registered? ---------------------- I suppose not. (But then, someone could make out a case for why we should be reminded of unregistered experiences, and I would think I understood that too!) --------------------------------- S: > Am I totally confused? I do feel quite muddle headed at this point, so I'll await your response. :-] --------------------------------- No, you are not muddle headed, you are just trying to see what is going on in my muddled head. Thanks for your help. And thanks to everyone else who has responded to my vague questions. I've taken up enough time, and I'd better take a back seat for a while. Otherwise, people will all be asking, "Why does it have to be all about KenH?" :-) Ken H PS: Having said that I would still appreciate any further comments you (or anyone else) might like to make. #84908 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:33 pm Subject: Patthaana (30) hantun1 Patthana (30) We will now study (6) Conascence Condition (sahajaata-paccaya). This Condition belongs to the group of “Mind-and-Matter for Mind-and-Matter.” Conascence Condition is a condition where a conditioning state, on arising, causes the conditioned states to arise simultaneously with itself. This is compared to an oil lamp: when its flame appears the light, colour, and heat are produced simultaneously with it. This Condition is divided into six types. (1) cattaaro khandhaa aruupino a~n~nama~n~nam sahajaata-paccayena paccayo. The four immaterial (i.e. mental) aggregates are mutually related to one another by conascence condition. (2) cattaaro mahaabhuutaa a~n~nama~n~nam sahajaata-paccayena paccayo. The four great primaries are mutually related to one another by conascence condition. (3) okkantikkha.ne naamaruupam a~n~nama~n~nam sahajaata-paccayena paccayo. At the moment of conception, mentality and materiality are mutually related to one another by conascence condition. (4) cittacetasikaa dhammaa cittasamutthaanaanam ruupaanam sahajaata-paccayena paccayo. States, consciousness and mental factors, are related to mind-produced matter by conascence condition. (5) Mahaabhuutaa upaadaaruupaanam sahajaata-paccayena paccayo. The great primaries are related to derived matters by conascence condition. (6) Ruupino dhammaa aruupiinam dhammaanam ki~ncikaale sahajaata-paccayena paccayo ki~ncikaale na sahajaata-paccayena paccayo The material states are sometimes related to the immaterial states by conascence condition, and sometimes not related by conascence condition. -------------------- The first three of the six types of this Condition are almost the same as the next Condition: (7) Mutuality condition (a~n~nama~n~na-paccaya), and there may be some confusion due to the presence of the two words “a~n~nama~n~nam” and “sahajaata” for each of the first three types. The question is whether the first three types of conditioning states and the conditioned states under (6) Conascence Condition are related to one another by “a~n~nama~n~na” or by “sahajaata”? The fact is: the conditioning states and conditioned states mentioned in the first three types are “both” related by a~n~nama~n~na-paccaya and sahajaata-paccaya. The conditioning states and conditioned states not only arise at the same time, but also the conditioning states become conditioned states in relation to the very states that they condition, at the same time and in the same way. It is only that under condition (6) Conascence Condition, sahajaata paccaya is highlighted, and under (7) Mutuality condition, a~n~nama~n~na-paccaya is highlighted. -------------------- The six types will be taken up one by one starting from the next post. Metta, Han #84909 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:42 pm Subject: Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau Hi Dan, ---------- <. . .> D: > My understanding is that the difference between direct understanding and theoretical understanding is striking, profound; ---------- We were reminded at the Bangkok meetings that, however hard right intellectual understanding might be, direct right understanding (satipatthana) is much, much harder. Even so, I still believe they are about the same thing - paramattha dhammas. One level of understanding of paramattha dhammas leads to the other. Pariyatti leads to patipatti. -------------------- D: > and that no amount of studying-concept-as-meditation-practice makes direct understanding arise. -------------------- I am very surprised - shocked, even - to hear you say that, Dan. As a no-control stalwart you should know that true Dhamma-students do not study as a practice. A formal (deliberate) practice implies the idea of getting somewhere. Where could conditioned dhammas possibly get to? Nowhere! And there are only conditioned dhammas. There is no abiding self that goes on to experience 'the wonderful world of enlightenment' or anything like that. Leave that sort of aspiration to the religions! Having heard and considered the teaching (about dhammas) we can - even now - understand that there are only dhammas. There are no ultimately real reasons for worries or aspirations about future enlightenment. What future - good or bad - is there for dhammas? What need could there be for a deliberate practice? The only need (if that is the right word) is at the paramattha dhamma level. Realisation (of the end of conditioned existence) urgently requires certain conditions. So what? I'm not going to lose sleep over it. :-) ---------------------- D: > When the understanding does arise, though, preparatory concept- studying helps with the consolidation of past-arisen insight. Different, eh? ---------------------- Yes and no. I would go so far as to agree that, for some individuals, insight could arise after *just a little* concept-studying. (Concepts of dhammas, that is.) However, that would be only because insight had been developed in former lifetimes. And in those former lifetimes there would have been lots and lots of concept studying. Furthermore, once insight has arisen there is still work to be done. And this is not to "consolidate" the insight that has arisen. The insight of a Sotapanna, for example, has destroyed the first three fetters. There can be no falling back - no need for consolidation. Before the next stage of supramundane insight can be attained there will need to be more hearing, considering and practice (mundane insight). So it is not a matter of consolidating, but of bringing about. Ken H PS: I know I am probably splitting hairs and not telling you anything you don't already know. But I am trying to keep your attention. We can't have you wondering off - away from DSG - the way you are inclined to do. :-) #84910 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:01 pm Subject: Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Larry, ----------- > Larry:"If you want to pursue this you might cultivate tranquility. It greatly increases one's awareness of subtle experience." Ken: "There we disagree. Tranquillity accompanies kusala consciousness, and kusala is practiced for the sake of kusala - not for the sake of gaining something." Larry: I think this is something you have to experience for yourself. You can't get it by reasoning through the concepts. I can read a book and tell you what happens when you surf, but really I have no idea. ---------- You can also read a book (the Tipitaka) and tell me what happens when you try to cultivate tranquillity. At such times there is lobha, which is never accompanied by tranquillity. At best it is accompanied by pleasant feeling. --------------------------------- > > Larry: "I don't think you can cross a street without attention to paramattha dhammas. Try it with your eyes closed." Ken: "'Attention to paramattha dhammas' or 'attention to concepts?' I think you must mean the latter: very few people have even heard of paramattha dhammas!" > > Larry: > I'm not following you. A concept can't be the object of eye consciousness. --------------------------------- No, and I didn't say it could. But a concept can be the object of mind-consciousness. The uninstructed worldling takes 'concepts of what is seen' as 'what is seen.' In fact, what is seen is visible object - a fleeting, conditioned dhamma. When you carefully cross a street you are careful of concepts - cars, lane markings, curbs . . . - not of fleeting mental and physical phenomena. (Larry, surely you know all this already!) -------------------------------- L: > Also I had a thought on "conventional reality". It seems to me that conventional reality is composed of ultimate realities. Otherwise it couldn't be said to be "reality". A dollar is a rupa group that is perceived as a sign of desirableness. The exchange of dollars for goods and services is a very complex stream of realities. Insight can penetrate this -------------------------------- No, I don't think insight (panna) is interested in whether or not you got your money's worth of goods. It knows that there are ultimately only paramattha dhammas, and it knows those dhammas for what they are. ---------------------- L: > but it has to begin with penetrating the present experience. There is also the imaginary. At the moment I am only imagining a dollar. I don't have a real one in view. There are very elaborate distinctions between imaginary and real dollars. ----------------------- Are there? At a moment of right understanding is there any distinction between an imagined dollar and a real dollar? As I understand it, in both cases only dhammas really exist (no dollar). And in both cases dhammas are thinking about (conceptualising) something called a dollar. ------------------------------- L: > Conventional reality isn't imaginary, but it is usually skimmed over and taken for granted. -------------------------------- I am not sure what you mean by that. Usually, we would say paramattha dhammas were skimmed over, and it was only concepts that were taken seriously (not taken for granted). Are you saying Dhamma students go to the opposite extreme and take concepts for granted? What would be the harm if they did? Maybe we shouldn't go down that track. It might lead to all sorts of useless speculation. The fact, as I see it, is that concepts are ultimately imaginary, and no harm can come from understanding that. Right understanding won't cause us to walk in front of a speeding car. Ken H #84911 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan sarahprocter... Hi Ken H & all, You indicated that you're still encouraging further input:-) --- kenhowardau wrote: > ....I received some puzzled looks at the > meetings, ... S: Sometimes it may simply be that people (like me and perhaps even A.Sujin!) don't understand the question. .... > Visible objects, audible objects, olfactory objects (etc) appear > constantly (as the fruits of past kamma) throughout the day. Some > become the object of considerable amounts of thinking, and some > don't. In other words, some become 'all about me' and some don't. > > As I see the matter, it is important to know that dhammas are arising > at *each* of the sense doors (one at a time, of course). .... S: It's important to develop understanding of what actually *appears* now. If visible object or thinking or doubt appears, but there's an idea (however subtle) of trying to be aware or understand an olfactory object or phassa (contact), for example, it indicates clinging to awareness/ understanding rather than being aware and understanding the reality right now. It's the same when we're concerned about having more metta or being aware of breath or seeing more urgency. This is how the practice becomes 'all about me'. I mentioned phassa above because I was reminded of how Kom felt dissatisfied that A.Sujin had made a comment to the effect that it didn't appear. He pointed out all the references in the Visuddhimagga to its characteristic and so on. She wasn't impressed. The question remains, what appears now? Good subtle points to discuss further! Look forward to more of your, Sukin's and other comments. Metta, Sarah p.s Great to see you and Dan in dialogue too. ====== #84912 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. sarahprocter... Hi Walto, (Ven P, David & all), --- Walter Horn wrote: > Again, the opposition to reciting, sitting, walking, in favor of > understanding, seems a bit forced and confrontational to me. > > Many people, when they are angry need to "count to ten" before they > are calm enough to consider things more sensibly. Obviously, such > counting isn't the way to "slay anger" permanently, but sometimes, > and for some people, there can be no hope of understanding until a > bit of calm has been regained. Similarly, it would seem that > sitting, walking, reciting, meditating--so long as they are seen as > means rather than an ends could also be a helpful propaedeutic to > understanding. Why not? .... S: This is exactly the question a friend, Vince, put to her on her 80th birthday last year: *** Vince asked her why she stresses so much on *not* meditating, even when it's bound to lead to major confrontations. Why not encourage mediation (as you suggest)? ... K.Sujin: The whole of the teachings will lead to non-attachment little by little. Today I think there is no understanding about what meditation is, what samatha is and what vipassana is. For example, vipassana is the moment of understanding reality right now isn't it? ....Detachment, not attachment. We'd better understand any term very precisely. If someone says meditation is sitting, I don't think so. It is not trying to concentrate without any understanding. **** S: This question is also exactly the same as one Ven Pannabahulo raised. I think the answer comes down to an understanding of dhammas as anatta, as not being in anyone's control. It'll be interested to read Ven P's comments when he gives one of his good summaries in due course. Perhaps David and Bob will add theirs too! Metta, Sarah ====== #84913 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan lbidd2 Hi Ken, Ken: "Right understanding won't cause us to walk in front of a speeding car." Larry: Close enough. I'll buy that with my imaginary dollars. Larry #84914 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:32 pm Subject: dhamma dis. at Foundation gazita2002 Hello Nina, sarah, jon, kenh and ohter friends, another lively Sat discussion . "Panna is a drop of water compared to the ocean of moha" - could indicate just how much moha and how little panna there is in our daily lives - now even at this moment, how much understanding is there of a reality? " Its good to know clinging to know how much clinging there is". Practically every movement I make in a day-an hr-a min- is provably conditioned by lobha. Looking for a more comfortable way to sit, going yet for another bite of the tasty food, doing yoga'cos it makes me feel good. Hard to imagine the world free of defilements, and concepts!!!!! We talked about the 3 aspects of dukkha. The first 2 kinds relate to feelings [1] painful [2] pleasant and [3] relates to all conditioned dhammas that are arising and falling away constantly. The impermanence of all things is why it is all dukkha. Many thanks go to A.Sujin from me for all the time and energy she puts into these sessions, plus the other days where she teaches dhamma to the Thai people via the foundation and via many radio programs. She appears to have devoted her life to teaching. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita #84915 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Water, and K. Sujin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Walto, (Ven P, David & all), > > --- Walter Horn wrote: > > Again, the opposition to reciting, sitting, walking, in favor of > > understanding, seems a bit forced and confrontational to me. > > > > Many people, when they are angry need to "count to ten" before they > > are calm enough to consider things more sensibly. Obviously, such > > counting isn't the way to "slay anger" permanently, but sometimes, > > and for some people, there can be no hope of understanding until a > > bit of calm has been regained. Similarly, it would seem that > > sitting, walking, reciting, meditating--so long as they are seen as > > means rather than an ends could also be a helpful propaedeutic to > > understanding. Why not? > .... > S: This is exactly the question a friend, Vince, put to her on her 80th > birthday last year: > *** > Vince asked her why she stresses so much on *not* meditating, even when > it's bound to lead to major confrontations. Why not encourage mediation > (as you suggest)? > ... > K.Sujin: The whole of the teachings will lead to non-attachment little by > little. James: This statement is meaningless. What "whole" is she referring to? How is this supposed to happen? Today I think there is no understanding about what meditation is, > what samatha is and what vipassana is. James: This statement is a generalization. Is she saying that no one, absolutely no one, has understanding of samatha and vipassana, except for her? Her ego is astounding. For example, vipassana is the > moment of understanding reality right now isn't it? ....Detachment, not > attachment. James: This statement is meaningless. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand: development of samatha before vipassana. > > We'd better understand any term very precisely. James: In other words, "You need to understand any term in the exact same way I understand it, or you are wrong." If someone says meditation > is sitting, I don't think so. It is not trying to concentrate without any > understanding. James: This is a straw man argument. No one said anything about meditation being just "sitting". She argues something which isn't being proposed. Metta, James #84916 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. sarahprocter... Hi James, Thx for your reasonable feedback:-) ... --- buddhatrue wrote: > > K.Sujin: The whole of the teachings will lead to non-attachment > little by > > little. > > James: This statement is meaningless. What "whole" is she referring > to? How is this supposed to happen? ... S: Through understanding that all the teachings are about non-attachment. The practice has to be about the development of detachment. ... > Today I think there is no understanding about what meditation is, > > what samatha is and what vipassana is. > > James: This statement is a generalization. Is she saying that no > one, absolutely no one, has understanding of samatha and vipassana, ... S: It is a generalization. Generally speaking, there is very little understanding around (even in Buddhist countries) of what bhavana means, what samatha means, what vipassana means. .... > For example, vipassana is the > > moment of understanding reality right now isn't > it? ....Detachment, not > > attachment. > > James: This statement is meaningless. It has nothing to do with the > issue at hand: development of samatha before vipassana. .... S: What is samatha? What is the development of samatha? How does it begin? .... > > > > We'd better understand any term very precisely. > > James: In other words, "You need to understand any term in the exact > same way I understand it, or you are wrong." .... S: :-) What about considering it in conformity with the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries? .... > > If someone says meditation > > is sitting, I don't think so. It is not trying to concentrate > without any > > understanding. > > James: This is a straw man argument. No one said anything about > meditation being just "sitting". She argues something which isn't > being proposed. ... S: OK, that's because you and most people here have been considering these terms and ideas. Don't you think that many people do consider meditation to be about sitting and concentrating on an object/many objects however? They may think there is some understanding, but is there? If so, understanding of what? What is the purpose? Metta, Sarah ====== #84917 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:34 am Subject: Metta, Ch 2, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Question: Nobody likes aversion. Khun Sujin: It is in daily life that dosa should be overcome. It can be subdued by developing mettå as a meditation subject of calm, or by the development of satipatthåna. Sati of satipatthåna is mindful of the characteristics of realities which are appearing and thus paññå can be developed stage by stage, until it is so keen that the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the anågåmí (non-returner) can be reached and then dosa is really eradicated. When Bhåradvåja had become a monk under the Buddha, his younger brothers heard that he had gained confidence in the Buddha and had become a monk. They became angry because of this and they gave expression to their anger in their behaviour and speech. We read in the following sutta in the Kindred Sayings (I, Chapter VII, the Brahmins, 1, Arahats, §2, Reviling): The Exalted One was once staying near Råjagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, near the Squirrels’ Feeding-ground. Now “Reviler” of the Bhåradvåja brahmins heard that the Bhåradvåja had left the world to enter the Sangha of Gotama the Recluse. Vexed and displeased, he sought the presence of the Exalted One, and there reviled and abused the Exalted One in rude and harsh speeches. When he had thus spoken, the Exalted One said: “As to this, what do you think, brahmin? Do you receive visits from friends and colleagues, from relatives, by blood or marriage, from other guests?” “Yes, Master Gotama, sometimes I do.” “As to that, what do you think, brahmin? Do you prepare for them food both dry and juicy, and an opportunity for rest?” “Yes, Master Gotama, sometimes I do. ” “But if they do not accept your hospitality, brahmin, whose do those things become?” “If they do not accept those things, Master Gotama, they are for us.” “Even so here, brahmin. That wherewith you revile us who do not revile, wherewith you scold us who do not scold, wherewith you abuse us who do not abuse, but that we do not accept from you. It is only for you, brahmin, it is only for you! He, brahmin, who reviles again at his reviler, who scolds back, who abuses in return him who has abused, this, brahmin, is as if you and your visitors dined together and made good. We neither dine together with you nor make good. It is for you only, brahmin, it is only for you!” “The king and his court believe that Gotama the recluse is an arahat. And yet Master Gotama can indulge in wrath!” The Exalted One said: From where should wrath arise for him who, void of wrath, Holds on the even tenor of his way, Self-tamed, serene, by highest insight free? Worse of the two is he who, when reviled, Reviles again. Who does not, when reviled, Revile again, a two-fold victory wins. Both of the other and himself he seeks The good; for he the other’s angry mood Understands and has sati and calm. He who of both is a physician, since Himself he heals and the other too, Those who do not know Dhamma think him a fool When he had so said, Reviler of the Bhåradvåjas spoke thus: “Most excellent, Master Gotama...” We then read that he was ordained and not long after this became an arahat. ******* Nina. #84918 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/21/2008 1:02:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: At a moment of right understanding is there any distinction between an imagined dollar and a real dollar? ================================ Just one point: On any occasion at which there is no distinguishing between an imagined dollar and a real dollar, there is lunacy (and also impending poverty! LOL!) With metta, Howard #84919 From: "S.Ganesh" Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:00 am Subject: The Story of Two Friends sganesh77 Dhammapada Verses 19 and 20 I (14) The Story of Two Friends While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (19) and (20) of this book, with reference to two bhikkhus who were friends. Once there were two friends of noble family, two bhikkhus from Savatthi. One of them learned the Tipitaka and was very proficient in reciting and preaching the sacred texts. He taught five hundred bhikkhus and became the instructor of eighteen groups of bhikkhus. The other bhikkhu striving diligently and ardently in the course of Insight Meditation attained arahatship together with Analytical Insight. On one occasion, when the second bhikkhu came to pay homage to the Buddha, at the Jetavana monastery, the two bhikkhus met, The master of the Tipitaka did not realize that the other had already become an arahat. He looked down on the other, thinking that this old bhikkhu knew very little of the sacred texts, not even one out of the five Nikayas or one out of the three Pitakas. So he thought of putting questions to the other, and thus embarass him. The Buddha knew about his unkind intention and he also knew that as a result of giving trouble to such a noble disciple of his, the learned bhikkhu would be reborn in a lower world. So, out of compassion, the Buddha visited the two bhikkhus to prevent the scholar from questioning the other bhikkhu. The Buddha himself did the questioning. He put questions on jhanas and maggas to the master of the Tipitaka; but he could not answer them because he had not practised what he had taught. The other bhikkhu, having practised the Dhamma and having attained arahatship, could answer all the questions. The Buddha praised the one who practised the Dhamma (i.e., a vipassaka), but not a single word of praise was spoken for the learned scholar(i.e., a ganthika). The resident disciples could not understand why the Buddha had words of praise for the old bhikkhu and not for their learned teacher. So, the Buddha explained the matter to them. The scholar who knows a great deal but does not practise in accordance with the Dhamma is like a cowherd, who looks after the cows for wages, while the one who practises in accordance with the Dhamma is like the owner who enjoys the five kinds of produce of the cows.* Thus, the scholar enjoys only the services rendered to him by his pupils but not the benefits of Magga-phala. The other bhikkhu, though he knows little and recites only a little of the sacred texts, having clearly comprehended the essence of the Dhamma and having practised diligently and strenuously, is an 'anudhammacari'**, who has eradicated passion, ill will and ignorance. His mind being totally freed from moral delilements and from all attachments to this world as well as to the next, he truly shares the benefits of Magga-phala. Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows : Verse 19 : Though he recites much the Sacred Texts (Tipitaka), but is negligent and does not practise according to the Dhamma, like a cowherd who counts the cattle of others, he has no share in the benefits of the life of a bhikkhu (i.e., Magga-phala). Verse 20 : Though he recites only a little of the Sacred Texts (Tipitaka), but practises according to the Dhamma, eradicating passion, ill will and ignorance, clearly comprehending the Dhamma, with his mind freed from moral defilements and no longer clinging to this world or to the next, he shares the benefits of the life of a bhikkhu (i.e., Magga-phala). * Milk, cream, butter, butter-milk and ghee ** Anudhammacari: one who practises in conformity with the Dhamma. #84920 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:03 am Subject: Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Sorry for the delay; thanks for the reply and clarifications: S: "...I don't think the texts say that if the patisandhi citta is sahetuka kusala vipaka, but not accompanied by panna, that there can be no panna during that life. What they say (as I recall), is that jhana or enlightenment cannot be attained. All we can do is speculate about this, I believe." Scott: Yes, I see that I had it a bit mixed up - it is no jhaana or enlightenment, not no pa~n~naa. This would make sense and is good, since then development is possible, whereas the way I had it, none would be in a given existence thusly constituted. S: "The cuti citta of the last lifetime was exactly the same kind of citta as the patisandhi and bhavanga cittas of that lifetime. The patisandhi citta of this lifetime (and following bhavanga and cuti cittas) are conditioned by the last javana cittas (kamma) of the last lifetime. These cittas are either rooted or not rooted in panna, but these are vipaka cittas, so we don't usually refer to panna 'arising during cuti citta'." Scott: Can you say more regarding the difference between 'rooted' or 'not rooted'? Is it that the citta, which served as patisandhi-citta, would be 'rooted' in pa~n~naa because the last javana cittas of the previous existence arose with pa~n~naa? Is it that, being vipaaka, and hence 'results', these cittas are not said to have pa~n~naa arising conascently? Wouldn't citta rooted in pa~n~naa still need pa~n~naa to be there conascently as well? I'm likely misunderstanding hetu-paccaya Sincerely, Scott. #84921 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive sukinderpal Hi TG (and Jon), Butting in, hope you don't mind. ==================== > > The Buddha has compared conditionality to an ocean wave that swells and > recedes. He has given example of stone mountain crags wearing away due > to soft > cloth rubbing against it, the ships rotting away (due to the elements) > over > time, an adze handles wearing away over time. Now, I think you'll come > up with > reasons to reject these, so I'll post some stuff and please respond > directly > to the crucial "altering" factors within the quotes... > > > "...his body, consisting of form, composed of the four great elements, > originating from mother and father, built up out of rice and gruel, > SUBJECT TO > IMPERMANENCE, TO BEING WORN AND RUBBED AWAY, TO BREAKING APART, AND > DISPERSAL." > (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Vol 2, page 1808. > Samyutta Nikaya Book Five.) > S: What lesson in "conditionality" do you get from considering the fact of the wearing away of rock by rubbing a cloth? Do some of the primary rupas fall away faster than others in what you take to be cloth and rock? Does observing dry ice evaporate in a period of time condition more understanding about impermanence and conditionality than when looking at a stone for the same length of time? Is dynamiting a big boulder a lesson in impermanence, if so why, if not why? In all these cases is the rapidity of the arising and falling away of 'visible object' or 'hardness' any different? What good can be got from "thinking about" the impermanence of conventional objects when no attention is ever paid to the characteristics of visible object, hardness etc? You say that the former supports the latter, but from what you have expressed here, it seems that the result is further proliferation in the wrong direction... But you may like to explain more. Metta, Sukin #84922 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Hi, Sarah and James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > S: It is a generalization. Generally speaking, there is very little > understanding around (even in Buddhist countries) of what bhavana means, > what samatha means, what vipassana means. No doubt there are -- and have been for centuries--countless controversies about the "right" form(s) of meditation.* And this is true of Western as well as Eastern traditions. I suppose, however, that it is true of many other aspects of Buddhism (and Western religions) as well. For example, we are now having instruction on 'metta' because it, too, may be misconstrued, applied to the wrong subjects, etc. But that, presumably, is no reason not to attempt loving kindness when we can and in our own imperfect ways. In any case, my point was not that people should attempt to obtain sammadhi or any particular sort of exquisite state or understanding prior to working on kindness. On the contrary, I said that many people may simply not be able to exhibit kindness unless they have becalmed themselves first. Just as someone may not be able to receive the benefits of sleep without first counting sheep, another may not be able to feel good wishes toward a driver who has cut him off in traffic without having practiced recitation or meditation first. Again, I can see the harm in making meditation the sole end of one's religion and never getting to anything else of importance. But for many people for many years meditation in countless varieties has been an aid rather than a hindrance to e.g. responding to carelessness with love, and it seems in these excerpts of this work we have seen so far to be depicted mostly as something to be avoided. I think it's important to remember that for most practitioners, meditation isn't a scholarly activity: it doesn't require perfect knowledge of this or that concept or refined skills. It is simply a way to compose oneself. If more can be obtained from it, wonderful, but in my view serenity alone is nothing to be scoffed at. Best, Walto *FWIW, much of my book, "The Perennial Solution Center," is about such controversies and the value of meditation). #84923 From: "connie" Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:55 am Subject: Perfections Corner (129) nichiconn Dear Friends, ch.1 continues: It is most difficult to develop the perfections, even though one has listened to the Dhamma and learnt much about the perfections. It depends on the capacity of each individual to what degree he can develop kusala. The perfections should very gradually be developed together with pa~n~naa, they should be developed time and again. We know that this is necessary if we realize that we have many defilements and that it is difficult to develop the pa~n~naa that can eradicate them. Therefore, during each life defilements should gradually be eliminated, so that the four noble Truths can be realized when one becomes a streamwinner, sotaapanna. Then one has reached the first stage of enlightenment, and one will not be reborn more than seven times. We should know what kind of pa~n~naa accompanies the perfection of generosity. The Book of Analysis (the second Book of the Abhidhamma), in Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge, 325) explains about different kinds of pa~n~naa, such as wisdom by means of thinking, wisdom by means of hearing, wisdom by means of giving, wisdom by means of siila. The "Dispeller of Delusion" (the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, in Ch 16, 412) explains that understanding associated with the intention or volition (cetanaa) of giving is "understanding based on giving" or "understanding by means of giving" (daanamayaa pa~n~naa). When we read this we should investigate in detail the pa~n~naa which is accompanied by the volition or intention of giving (cetanaa of daana). Pa~n~naa cannot arise with akusala citta, it cannot arise when someone expects a result. We read in the "Dispeller of Delusion": "...that understanding which arises associated in this way with the volition of giving, this is called 'understanding based on giving' (daanamayaa pa~n~naa). But that has three forms, namely, prior volition, volition of relinquishing and subsequent volition, according as it arises in one who thinks: 'I shall give a gift', in one giving a gift or in one reviewing after having given a gift." The "Dispeller of Delusion" speaks in detail about pa~n~naa which accompanies the kusala cittas that are intent on generosity. Kusala citta can be unaccompanied by pa~n~naa or accompanied by pa~n~naa. Kusala citta of the sense sphere accompanied by pa~n~naa cetasika (mahaa-kusala citta ~naa.nasampayutta *1) can be kusala citta of the level of daana, of siila, or of bhaavanaa, mental development, including samatha and satipa.t.thaana, which is the development of vipassanaa. When we develop the perfection of generosity, the aim should be the correct understanding of realities as they are, without any expectation of a result for ourselves. This is the condition for pa~n~naa which is understanding based on daana (daanamayaa pa~n~naa). *1 Mahaa-kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sense-sphere, are classified as ~naa.na vippayutta, unaccompanied by pa~n~naa or ~naa.na sampayutta, accompanied by pa~n~naa; ~naa.na means pa~n~naa. connie #84924 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. nilovg Dear Walto, Op 21-apr-2008, om 14:31 heeft Walter Horn het volgende geschreven: > On the contrary, I said that many > people may simply not be able to exhibit kindness unless they have > becalmed themselves first. -------- N: I do not believe this. No matter what religion one professes, people can show acts of kindness. Even people who are somewhat rough still can help others. No need to think about it first. They can act just spontaneously. Nina. #84925 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (30) nilovg Dear Han, Thank you, it is a good sign you are at it again. Op 21-apr-2008, om 3:33 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > > We will now study (6) Conascence Condition (sahajaata-paccaya). > > This Condition belongs to the group of “Mind-and-Matter for Mind- > and-Matter.” -------- The 6 categories are clear. But not the group of “Mind-and-Matter for Mind-and-Matter". Perhaps you have a reason you will explain later on. Nina. #84926 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: I wrote: many people may simply not be able to exhibit kindness unless they have becalmed themselves first. to which you responded: > -------- > N: I do not believe this. No matter what religion one professes, > people can show acts of kindness. Even people who are somewhat rough > still can help others. No need to think about it first. They can act > just spontaneously. > Nina. > W: Yes, I agree that people can act in such ways at certain times (when the winds are favorable, so to speak). But when they (we) have been gratuitously attacked or are otherwised stressed, many, unfortunately cannot. They (we) may need to, as I've put it "count to ten." If there are some who don't need to, that's great, but I can't see that lacking that sort of composure is a terrible defect-- at least if one can find ways to overcome it! Best, Walto #84927 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. sukinderpal Hi Walter (and Nina), ===================== Walter Horn wrote: Again, the opposition to reciting, sitting, walking, in favor of understanding, seems a bit forced and confrontational to me. > > Many people, when they are angry need to "count to ten" before they > are calm enough to consider things more sensibly. Obviously, such > counting isn't the way to "slay anger" permanently, but sometimes, > and for some people, there can be no hope of understanding until a > bit of calm has been regained. Similarly, it would seem that > sitting, walking, reciting, meditating--so long as they are seen as > means rather than an ends could also be a helpful propaedeutic to > understanding. Why not? As I said before, recitation of excellent > texts may be just what is needed to keep reasonable positions in the > forefront even when one becomes horribly angry over some incident > during the day. > > In any case, as I've said, the either-or attitude exhibited here > seems to me unnecessarily combative. If sitting, reciting, etc. > help some people to achieve metta (and surely it has and does), why > should there be any opposition to it? > S: Is it really an "either-or" situation? When in conventional living we think in terms of situations then there comes to be the matter of this or that. However when some of us talk about the development of understanding in daily life, this is about the acknowledgment of there being in reality only paramattha dhammas and concepts of people and situations are mere illusions. In other words 'daily life' means simply, not creating ideas about better time, place and posture especially when it is in fact these same paramatha dhammas that we need to understand. But you are talking about the development of Metta..... As already stated in Nina's posts, the development of Metta can take place only when there is "understanding". Be it samatha or vipassana, the object is always 'a being'. For the development either of these, there involves increased appreciation not only of the harm in 'aversion', but also being able to distinguish between metta and consciousness rooted in 'attachment'. The former is the far enemy of metta, while the latter is considered the near enemy. Most people react to aversion as 'my' aversion and do not even think to be wary about attachment. The result in their quest to 'have metta' is then attachment of one kind or another which is then mistaken for metta. When we are reminded about daily life in this regard, we can see how much metta has been accumulated and when we have ideas about developing it, whether here or there, we can see what indeed motivates us. Keeping the Dhamma in mind, the development of metta is one of the Ten Perfections. And here besides the fact that metta is developed as a result of increased understanding about the danger in aversion and attachment, in this context there must be knowing its characteristics, both particular and general, and also I think, its proximate cause. In other words, there is no place for taking it as "my" metta, let alone take what is not metta for metta. Therefore it seems to me, that when one recites or meditates, one question to ask is, is there taking any of this for "self"? You have compared reciting etc. with reading the commentaries and insist that they both stand on the same ground. Reading the commentaries can be done with 'self / wrong understanding', but it can also be conditioned by rightly seeing the value of listening to the Teachings and the importance of developing the understanding at the intellectual level. "Doing something" such as reciting and meditating on the other hand, this seem to go at the expense of the former, in other words a disregard to what the Teachings say about the nature of conditioned realities. In short, metta develops by *knowing* metta and not by 'wanting' to develop it. What say you? ;-) Metta, Sukin #84928 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Sukin In a message dated 4/21/2008 6:06:24 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sukinder@... writes: S: What lesson in "conditionality" do you get from considering the fact of the wearing away of rock by rubbing a cloth? ............................................... TG: The lesson is that -- formations alter in accordance to the conditional circumstances brought to bear. They do not alter independently on their own. ................................................. Do some of the primary rupas fall away faster than others in what you take to be cloth and rock? Does observing dry ice evaporate in a period of time condition more understanding about impermanence and conditionality than when looking at a stone for the same length of time? Is dynamiting a big boulder a lesson in impermanence, if so why, if not why? In all these cases is the rapidity of the arising and falling away of 'visible object' or 'hardness' any different? ........................................................ TG: All of these (or anything else) can be lessons, IF, careful attention is paid to the conditional circumstances in terms of "the origin of a formation, the present supporting structures of said formation, and the conditions causing said formation to alter. Sitting stupidly looking at things, of course, will not provide any lessons. ........................................................ What good can be got from "thinking about" the impermanence of conventional objects when no attention is ever paid to the characteristics of visible object, hardness etc? .................................................. TG: I look at the NATURE of phenomena as indicators of reality. And that nature is -- conditioned, impermanent, afflicted, and nonself. Mountain, visible object, hardness ... I'm not for letting any of them fool me thank you. They're all relative and all without (their own) essence. You see, whatever it is that WE CALL a "mountain," is conditioned, impermanent, afflicted (by impermanence), nonself. Whatever it is we call "visible-object" is conditioned, impermanent, afflicted, and nonself. Whatever it is that we call "hardness" is conditioned, impermanent, afflicted, and nonself. If you prefer to think of a "mountain" as "hardness," that's alright by me. If you want to think of a human-being as Five Aggregates, that's alright by me. I do both of these things habitually. But if you think that by doing so you have cut through seeing things as entities or self, then IMO, you are sadly and tragically mistaken. .......................................................... .......................................................... You say that the former supports the latter, but from what you have expressed here, it seems that the result is further proliferation in the wrong direction... But you may like to explain more. ................................................... TG: Its a shame the Buddha isn't around so you could ask him why he did it on a regular basis. And no, not just to the uneducated in elements, aggregates, etc. TG OUT .................................................. #84929 From: mlnease@... Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan m_nease Hi Sarah (and Ken), > I mentioned phassa above because I was reminded of how Kom > felt dissatisfied that A.Sujin had made a comment to the > effect that it didn't appear. He pointed out all the > references in the Visuddhimagga to its characteristic and > so on. She wasn't impressed. This rang a bell and reminded me of a question I had about a previous post, regarding KS's frequent use of 'appear' rather than 'arise'. Sorry if this is redundant, but could you please elaborate on this and on why phassa doesn't 'appear'? mike #84930 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Dear Sukin and all, Thanks for your detailed response. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder wrote: > [snip] > You have compared reciting etc. with reading the commentaries and insist > that they both stand on the same ground. Reading the commentaries can be > done with 'self / wrong understanding', but it can also be conditioned > by rightly seeing the value of listening to the Teachings and the > importance of developing the understanding at the intellectual level. > "Doing something" such as reciting and meditating on the other hand, > this seem to go at the expense of the former, in other words a disregard > to what the Teachings say about the nature of conditioned realities. > > In short, metta develops by *knowing* metta and not by 'wanting' to > develop it. > > What say you? ;-) > > Metta, > > Sukin I'd like to respond, but I'm afraid I don't understand the distinction(s) you are making here well enough to do so competantly. Perhaps you could elaborate further on why meditating is more likely to be a hindrance to development of metta than studying texts? Best, Walto #84931 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 21-apr-2008, om 3:22 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > Good point! I think that is what Nina was saying in her reply: < N: > Why not the term 'arise'? Because when it appears and shows its > characteristic, it has arisen already.> > > This is not easy! > -------- N: Should we talk more about characteristics? I have a feeling that people make it all too difficult and if one keeps on saying: too difficult, this will hinder beginning to be aware of different characteristics, even though there is not yet clear understanding of them. How could there be clear understanding immediately? Impossible. Kh Sujin spoke more about this in the Thai sessions: awareness arises very shortly, and it can be accumulated if this often happens. Sati may arise and immediately thinking is bound to follow, thinking with lobha. It is good to know. Nina. #84932 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan nilovg Hi Howard and Ken H, Op 21-apr-2008, om 12:57 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > At a moment of right understanding is there any > distinction between an imagined dollar and a real dollar? > > ================================ > Just one point: On any occasion at which there is no distinguishing > between an imagined dollar and a real dollar, there is lunacy (and > also impending > poverty! LOL!) ------- N: Interesting. Lodewijk gave me a diamond ring for my birthday and I was considering texts such as: The “Book of Analysis” : (Part 3, Analysis of the Elements, § 173) mentions precious stones together with pebbles and gravel in order to remind us of the truth. It explains about the internal element of extension (solidity) as being hair of the head, hair of the body and other “parts of the body”. Then it explains about the external element of extension as follows: “Therein what is the external element of extension? That which is external, hard, harsh, hardness, being hard, external, not grasped. For example: iron, copper, tin, lead, silver, pearl, gem, cat’s-eye, shell, stone, coral, silver coin, gold, ruby, variegated precious stone, grass, wood, gravel, potsherd, earth, rock, mountain; or whatever else there is....” The elements give us pleasure or pain. When we do not realize them as they are, we are enslaved by them. > My ring and the gravel: when touched just hardness appears. No difference. I also wrote (in my ruupas): < We may not like to accept this truth since we find that gems and pebbles have different values. We have accumulated conditions to think about concepts and we neglect the development of understanding of realities; we tend to forget that what we call gems and also the cittas that enjoy them do not last, that they are gone immediately. Someone who leads the life of a layman enjoys his possessions, but he can also develop understanding of what things really are. > I will not last long from now on, and where will the ring go to? No, it is not a lunacy to consider the truth of the Dhamma, Howard. Nina. #84933 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:32 am Subject: Fwd: Beginner's Abhidhamma, by Tep. nilovg Forwarded to dsg. > Van: "Tep Sastri" > Datum: 20 april 2008 23:09:06 GMT+02:00 > Aan: "Nina van Gorkom" > Onderwerp: Antw.: Beginner's Abhidhamma > > Dear Nina, - > > What a coincidence -- you are just back from Bangkok! Thank you so > much for the prompt reply. > > >N: Learning Pali, but that takes time. Use the Pali dictionary to > begin with. > > T: I see. Han and I recently discussed the need for learning Pali > grammar in addition to using the dictionary. We came to a similar > conclusion that there is no easy way. > > >N: Right thinking of the Path: this is actually together with > right view the wisdom of the eightfold Path. Vitakka touches the > object so that right view (pa`n`naa) can know it as it is. > > T: The Thai text describes vitakka as strong thinking, the lifting > of citta and its adherence to to a wholesome object. But I think it > makes sense to explain like you did, i.e. samma-sankappa is led by > samma-ditthi as the fore-runner on the path. > > >N: When kusala is performed there is renunciation, of any form of > attachment, attachment to one's own confort. One takes the trouble > to perform kusala and does not find it tiresome. One does not think > of having some advantage for oneself, such as a good rest! > > T: Very well said, Nina. In renunciation there is no attachment due > to kÄ?ma-tanhÄ? to worldly baits. That reminded me of a conversation > between two arahants, Sariputta and Moggallana, about not taking a > good rest even after arahantship was attained. The venerable > Sariputta said he never once lied down flat on his back. > .............. > > > >T: An implication I see is that the 1st jhana is a supporting > condition for Stream-entry. > ------- > >N: I think we have to make a differentiation here. When someone > develops jhaana and also vipassanaa, he can be aware of the jhaana > factors after emerging from jhaana and see these as impermanent, or > dukkha, or anattaa. In such a case jhaana is a basis or proximate > cause for vipassanaa. > ............................... > > T: Yes, I agree that jhÄ?na supports vipassanÄ? the way you explain. > But I also understand the role of jhanÄ? as the supporting > condition for clear knowing as stated in Upanisa Sutta. > > Thank you so much for the insights and guidance in this discussion. > > Tep > === > > #84934 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan nilovg Dear Mike, I am butting in because I just wrote to Ken about appear. Op 21-apr-2008, om 20:25 heeft mlnease@... het volgende geschreven: > This rang a bell and reminded me of a question I had about a > previous post, regarding KS's frequent use of 'appear' > rather than 'arise'. Sorry if this is redundant, but could > you please elaborate on this and on why phassa doesn't > 'appear'? ------- N: When a dhamma has arisen it may appear to sati and pa~n~naa. Phassa is a dhamma and it has characteristic, but the question is: for whom will it be object of sati and pa~n~naa? The first stage of insight is knowing the difference between nama and rupa. If the difference between seeing and visible object is not known can we say that phassa is clearly known? Nina. #84935 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:05 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (30) hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: The 6 categories are clear. But not the group of “Mind-and-Matter for Mind-and-Matter". Perhaps you have a reason you will explain later on. Han: I just refer to pages 305-322 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, where these classifications are given. Quote: [In six ways Mind is a condition for Mind. In five ways Mind is a condition for Mind-and-Matter. Again, Mind is a condition in one way for Matter, and Matter in one way for Mind. In two ways Concepts and Mind-and-Matter are a condition for Mind. In nine ways the dyad – Mind-and-Matter – is a condition for Mind-and-Matter. Thus the relations are sixfold.] End Quote. And the 24 conditions are described under these six ways of relations. There is also a Table showing the conditioning and conditioned states of the 24 conditions. I refer to these classifications because by that way I will not miss out any factor (mind and matter) in any given condition. Respectfully, Han #84936 From: "colette" Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (3) ksheri3 Hi Sarah, I would not have phrased it that way but I translated, interpreted, the meaning you issued to me. You struck upon the problems found in mistranslation from one language to another language. Besides the monumental amount of incorrect translations and simply blatant misrepresentations, you spoke to me in a buddhist context attempting to find out how I am grasping these concepts from my limited Western psychology and shamanistic traditions. I had to go through a lot of muck to actually visualize the concepts of atta and anatta. You strike upon an "immediate" sensation when you say "at this moment", and this initially sent me to seeing, visualizing, Relative Truth and Ultimate Truth. Now I'm at the point where I questioned the reasons or reasoning behind the focus being placed on one of the body sense organs, eye-consciousness. While I was walking through the desert in 1982 it took me seven days to walk from Phoenix to Gallup N.M., I certainly experienced dehydration but never experienced Mirages (no, not the brothel in Las Vegas), a mirage can be a Phantasm and/or a hallucination. NOW WE'RE IN AN AREA I CAN DEAL WITH: hallucinations BECAUSE I had the most outrageous hallucinations during the 1970s growing up in DuPage County IL since we rich kids got some LSD, Mushrooms, WindowPain, etc. Also during the 70s I experienced my first Near-Death Experience and the most profound NDE where I immediately recognized or cognized that the expereince was not so dissimilar to the experience of psychedelic drugs. Let me get this straight, you want me to comment of the tangibility of Rupa or an object as being that which is seen through the eye- consciousness? As a magi of Western traditions I first must inquire as to what it is you DESIRE, CRAVE, manifested? Then I can go into your questions concerning sound and the qualities of sound. Does the ear the only part of the body that hears? sound is made of a Wave, vibrations, A DISTURBANCE. That which was festering and stagnating suddenly becomes dynamic and active and set into motion. Can you actually hear the ripples of the pond after the pebble or rock was thrown in the drink since the static condition of a stagnant pond no longer exists yet you are leading me into a what appears to be a Tar-Pit out there in West L.A. near Santa Monica where that manufactured part of society called the status quo exists. What is a sound? What is a reflection of some stream of light? They are both past dharmas and no longer applicable to the present dharma; HOWEVER, if you get a sucker into a tar-pit and a death mask made, you know Pottery Barn or spinning pottery, don't you, so if you get this tangible object cast into a mold then how are you going to extricate yourself from the Past Dharma which is the only reason for manifesting the model in the first place: imprisoning yourself in the past and sacrificing the Present and Future Dharmas. Why? Now what you gotta do is a lot of work on re-establishing your grasp of Atta and Anatta since you certainly have a negative opinion of one of them which means that you crave the other which leads me to our good friends DEPENDENTS and the tax dodge of claiming other bodies as DEPENDENT BODIES. Alas, I have no time for such childishness. toodles, colette > S: I'm glad you're considering what atta and anatta really mean. At this > moment, is there the seeing of visible object? Is there the hearing of > sound? If there is an idea of something or someone seen or heard, is that > atta-view? > ... > > Thank you for raising the issue and getting me to look back into > > things I ran right past. > > > > Let me get back to ya on this one. > .. > S: Thank you too. I'll look forward to ya further reflections:-). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > #84937 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Walter (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Walter Horn" wrote: > In any case, my point was not that people should attempt to obtain > sammadhi or any particular sort of exquisite state or understanding > prior to working on kindness. On the contrary, I said that many > people may simply not be able to exhibit kindness unless they have > becalmed themselves first. Just as someone may not be able to > receive the benefits of sleep without first counting sheep, another > may not be able to feel good wishes toward a driver who has cut him > off in traffic without having practiced recitation or meditation > first. I like your examples. When it comes to meditation, I am often reminded of Maslow's Hierachy of Needs. One must meet certain needs before there can be higher levels of realization (often accompanied by meditation). If you are too hungry, too tired, too sick, too worried about your finances, too stressed out out your work- relationships-family, etc., it is nearly impossible to meditate or to generate metta toward others. You must take care of your basic needs first before you can attempt to reach the higher levels of realization. The Vism. also describes this necessity in many passages. Metta, James #84938 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:09 pm Subject: Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Sarah, --------------- KH: > > As I see the matter, it is important to know that dhammas are arising at *each* of the sense doors (one at a time, of course). > > S:> It's important to develop understanding of what actually *appears* now. ----------------- This brings back memories of the meetings I attended. I think K Sujin made that point over and over. And I think I was impressed by it and nodded sagaciously every time thinking, "Yes, very good, I will remember that." And, of course, I promptly forgot it. Every time! And I will probably forget it this time too. :-( ----------------------- S: > If visible object or thinking or doubt appears, but there's an idea (however subtle) of trying to be aware or understand an olfactory object or phassa (contact), for example, it indicates clinging to awareness/understanding rather than being aware and understanding the reality right now. It's the same when we're concerned about having more metta or being aware of breath or seeing more urgency. This is how the practice becomes 'all about me'. ----------------------- OK, I can see that now, thank you. And there is another point being made here, isn't there? It's about some objects appearing more frequently than others. By knowing which types of object appear most frequently we . . . . What? Understand a little more about what is appearing now? Sorry for being so dense! Nina said something to me about not assuming it was all too hard. Am I not seeing the wood for the trees? (One day I will look back and laugh about this.) :-) Ken H > > I mentioned phassa above because I was reminded of how Kom felt > dissatisfied that A.Sujin had made a comment to the effect that it didn't > appear. He pointed out all the references in the Visuddhimagga to its > characteristic and so on. She wasn't impressed. > > The question remains, what appears now? > > Good subtle points to discuss further! #84939 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:27 am Subject: Guardians of the world - shame and moral dread (was Re: At the Foundation) philofillet Hi Scott (p.s to folks who posted in response to my latest rants.) Thanks for your response. > P: "(Actually, I always have trouble understanding how hiri and otappa > can operate with self involved. Who cares about what others think, > who cares about the consequences of bad deeds?)" > > Scott: Shame and fear of sin 'with self involved'? This is the whole > of the 'religious attitude', Phil. I'd think pure hiri and otappa are > not arising most of the time because of thoughts related to > self-related shame (what others think) and fear of loss of the love of > others. But I'm not saying what I did based on what my idea of hiri and otappa is. I'm talking about the textbook definitions. It's something I've posted about before and not figured out yet, so probably won't now, but take this passage from the CMA (II-5): "Their proximate cause is respect for self and respect for others, respectively. These two states are called by the Buddha the guardians of the world because they protect the world from fallng into widespread immorality." This is just one definition, one passage and I'm as always too lazy and currently too obsessed with baseball to take the time to track down others I have seen. But you can see where I get confused. "Respect for self" doesn't, surely, mean respect for atta, but....what does it mean? Maybe we and anyone else who are interested could discuss this... Metta, Phil p.s thanks Sarah, Nina and Sukin for your responses. I'm glad that I said things that made for interesting discussions. But I don't want to just keep repeating myself, so until the next burst of ranting....perhaps, just perhaps, I have fully said my piece. #84940 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:30 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 251, 252 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 251, 252 Intro: As we have seen, the Visuddhimagga deals with the link: clinging conditions becoming, bhava. There are two meanings of becoming: becoming in the sense of kamma-process becoming, kamma- bhava, and in the sense of rebirth-process becoming, upatti-bhava. Kamma-process becoming is kamma that is the cause of rebirth, and rebirth-process becoming is the result of kamma in the form of rebirth. Different aspects of kamma bhava are being explained and in the following sections kamma-process becoming as to its nature or reality, dhammato, is explained. ----------- Text Visuddhimagga 251: 'As to state': firstly, kamma-process becoming in brief is both volition and the states of covetousness, etc., associated with the volition and reckoned as kamma too, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is kamma-process becoming? ---------- N: As to the words, reckoned as kamma (kammasa”nkhaata), this is kamma that is performed by its own conditions and that bears its own fruit, according to the Tiika. As we read in the text of the Visuddhimagga, ‘kamma-process becoming in brief is both volition and the states of covetousness, etc., associated with the volition’, thus, the cetasikas that accompany volition, but, according to the Tiika, strictly speaking volition, cetanaa, is kamma. -------- Text Vis.: The formation of merit, the formation of demerit, the formation of the imperturbable, either with a small (limited) plane or with a large (exalted) plane: that is called kamma-process becoming. Also all kamma that leads to becoming is called kamma- process becoming' (Vbh. 137). ------- N: Included in ‘all kamma...’ are the dhammas associated with volition or the dhammas leading to accumulation (aacayagaamita) which are called kamma, as the Tiika states. As to the term ‘a small plane’, parittabhuumako, the Tiika explains: the plane of sense impressions (kaamabhuumako). As to a large plane, this is the plane of jhaanacittas (mahaggatabhuumako). The plane of sense impressions is insignificant compared to the plane of jhaanacittas which are removed from sense impressions. The aim of jhaana is not being involved with sense impressions and the defilements bound up with them. As to the words ‘all kamma that leads to becoming’, bhaavagaamii, the Tiika states that the destruction of kamma (by the arahat), prevents kamma. Here, in the case of kamma leading to becoming, there is the expounding of the cycle of birth and death (va.t.takathaa), whereas, the expounding of the end of the cycle (viva.t.ta kathaa) refers to the destruction of kamma. ********* Text Visuddhimagga 252: Here the formation of merit is, in terms of states, the thirteen kinds of volition ((1)-(13)), --------- N: These are the wholesome volitions accompanying eight kaamaavacara kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sense-sphere (four with wisdom, four without wisdom, four with happy feeling, four with indifferent feeling, four unprompted, four prompted). Moreover, there are the wholesome volitions accompanying the five types of ruupaavacara kusala cittas, the kusala ruupa-jhaanacittas of the five stages of jhaana. ------------ Text Vis.: the formation of demerit is the twelve kinds ((22)-(33)), --------- N: These are the unwholesome volitions accompanying the eight types of lobha-muulacittas, two types of dosa-muulacittas and two types of moha-muulacittas. The type of moha-muulacitta that is uddhacca-sampayutta, accompanied by agitation, is too weak to produce rebirth-consciousness. However, when akusala kamma is being performed, also these types of moha- muulacittas arise in between and these can produce vipaaka occurring in the course of life. The Tiika refers to the Dhaatu Kathaa, the Discourse on the Elements, which is the third book of the Abhidhamma. We read in Ch 1 (about classification and unclassification, which means inclusion and non-inclusion), in section 6, Dependent Origination, that kamma bhava is classified under one khandha (being cetanaa, it is sankhaarakkhandha), under one aayatana ( dhammaayatana which includes cetasikas), and one dhaatu (dhamma dhaatu, which includes cetasikas). ---------- Text Vis.: and the formation of the imperturbable is the four kinds ((14)-(17)). ------- N: These are the volitions accompanying the aruupaavacara kusala cittas, the kusala cittas of the four stages of aruupa-jhaana. ---------- Text Vis.: So with the words 'either with a small (limited) plane or with a large (exalted) plane' the insignificance or magnitude of these same volitions' result is expressed here. But with the words 'also all kamma that leads to becoming' the covetousness, etc., associated with volition are expressed. -------- Conclusion: The Dhaatu Kathaa, the Discourse on the Elements, reminds us of the fact that kamma bhava is only an element devoid of self. We are inclined to take wholesome action and unwholesome action for self, but these are mere dhammas occurring because of conditions. Kamma that is being perfomed at this moment, such as studying the teachings, can condition result in the future, but it is unpredictable how and when this will take place. The fact that kamma of the sense sphere is called insignificant, paritta, reminds us that, even while we are giving, seeing, thinking and wishing for something arise. Attachment to the things we give or to the people who are the receivers of our gifts are bound to arise. However, understanding of such moments can be developed, so that it will be known that they are all conditioned dhammas. ****** Nina. #84941 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Guardians of the world - shame and moral dread (was Re: At the Foundation) nilovg Hi Phil, Op 22-apr-2008, om 9:27 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > "Their proximate cause > is respect for self and respect for others, respectively. These two > states are called by the Buddha the guardians of the world because > they > protect the world from fallng into widespread immorality." > > This is just one definition, one passage and I'm as always too > lazy and currently too obsessed with baseball to take the time to > track down others I have seen. But you can see where I get > confused. "Respect for self" doesn't, surely, mean respect for atta, > but....what does it mean? ------- N: Being lazy, obsessed by baseball, well we all have our hobbies. Nevertheless, if there is no awareness of present realities, there are no shame and fear in the kusala sense. Respect for self: an inward proximate cause. No respect for these khandhas here we call myself. We have learnt about the Dhamma, we know in general what is kusala and what akusala, but we do not live up tp standards. The word self is used in a figurative way. Nina. #84942 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (30) nilovg Dear Han, I do not have this, since I have the Topics of Abh, including the complete commentary to the Abhidhamattha Sangaha. I looked at ch 8, but I do not find such grouping. I have no table in my book. When we just see: mind and matter to mind and matter, it may be confusing. I do not think we can talk in such general terms. Is this Ven. Bodhi's personal idea? Nina. Op 22-apr-2008, om 0:05 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: I just refer to pages 305-322 of A Comprehensive Manual of > Abhidhamma, where these classifications are given. #84943 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:13 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (30) hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: I do not have this, since I have the Topics of Abh, including the complete commentary to the Abhidhamattha Sangaha. I looked at ch 8, but I do not find such grouping. I have no table in my book. When we just see: mind and matter to mind and matter, it may be confusing. I do not think we can talk in such general terms. Is this Ven. Bodhi's personal idea? Han: I do not think it is Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi’s personal idea. There is also Pali text to it, which I assume was written by Acariya Anuruddha, and translated by Ven Mahathera Narada, and translation revised by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. I find this grouping also in The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon (pages 345-350). Anyway, if it causes confusing I will stop referring to this grouping. Respectfully, Han #84944 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Scott: Can you say more regarding the difference between 'rooted' or > 'not rooted'? Is it that the citta, which served as patisandhi-citta, > would be 'rooted' in pa~n~naa because the last javana cittas of the > previous existence arose with pa~n~naa? .... S: I'm not sure we can say this categorically. As you know, kamma is very intricate. The panna arising with those last javana cittas can be of many different degrees and kinds. Kusala cittas can also be unprompted (strong) or prompted (weak). They can arise with pleasant or indifferent feeling. There are many, many different factors involved. ... >Is it that, being vipaaka, > and hence 'results', these cittas are not said to have pa~n~naa > arising conascently? ... S: 'Roots' mean these cetasikas arise conascently, acting as a strong support. This is also so in the case of vipaka cittas such as the bhavanga cittas. So if these cittas have 3 (wholesome) roots, then panna must arise with the citta, however weak (or strong)it may be. People have very different dipositions. For example, some people always seem to be very cheery. One of the factors may be the happy feeling arising with these vipaka cittas. Sometimes people are surprised to hear that awareness (sati) arises with all wholesome vipaka cittas too. ... >Wouldn't citta rooted in pa~n~naa still need > pa~n~naa to be there conascently as well? I'm likely misunderstanding > hetu-paccaya ... S: It the citta is rooted in panna, it means panna is arising with it. However, I think the point I was stressing before is that these are still vipaka cittas, *result* cittas, so it's not the same as the panna arising with kusala cittas which accumulates and conditions kusala kamma. How are we doing? Metta, Sarah ======= #84945 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (30) sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Han), --- han tun wrote: > Dear Nina, > > > Nina: I do not have this, since I have the Topics of Abh, including > the complete commentary to the Abhidhamattha Sangaha. I looked at ch 8, > but I do not find such grouping. I have no table in my book. When we > just see: mind and matter to mind and matter, it may be confusing. I do > not think we can talk in such general terms. Is this Ven. Bodhi's > personal idea? ... S: There may be a misunderstanding here......not BB's personal idea. CMA, Ch V111, #18 "Adhipati-sahajaata-a~n~nama~n~na-nissaya-aahaara-indriya-vippayutta-atthi-aviga\ tavasenaa ti yathaaraha.m navadhaa naamaruupaani naamaruupaana.m paccayaa bhavanti." "Mind-and-matter is a condition for mind-and-matter in nine ways according to circumstances, namely, by way of predominance, conascence, mutuality, support, nutriment, faculty, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance." In S.T.A. (the commentary), see p.312 which shows the same and gives more detail here about adhipati paccaya. Metta, Sarah p.s the helpful tables in CMA were supplied by U Silananda as I recall. ====== #84946 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan sarahprocter... Hi Mike (& Ken H), --- mlnease@... wrote: > >S: I mentioned phassa above because I was reminded of how Kom > > felt dissatisfied that A.Sujin had made a comment to the > > effect that it didn't appear. He pointed out all the > > references in the Visuddhimagga to its characteristic and > > so on. She wasn't impressed. > >M: This rang a bell and reminded me of a question I had about a > previous post, regarding KS's frequent use of 'appear' > rather than 'arise'. Sorry if this is redundant, but could > you please elaborate on this and on why phassa doesn't > 'appear'? ... S: What arises doesn't necessarily *appear* as the object of cittas at this moment or commonly during the day. I think phassa is a good example. We know it arises with every single citta, but is its characteristic experienced now? Of course, only panna can tell. I think it's a significant point. Pls let me know if there's more to discuss here. I see Nina has also replied. As I suggested, this was one of the areas which Kom raised before he re-ordained. I think this message in a discussion I had with him gives an indication: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/57355 I'd be happy to discuss any of these points further. Here's a note of some comments KS made to another friend which I just came across in the recording we're currently working on. It may be relevant. (note: none of KS's comments I give are exact quotes) KS: Usually when there's not enough understanding, there's the intention to be aware, e.g., 'Oh, I remember that this is hardness which should be known and studied'. But with the intention it's not the right awareness and understanding at all. So panna has to know exactly what is the path and what is the real one, otherwise one is motivated by the self all the time. So how can there be the elimination of the idea of the self when the self is trying so hard? All the teachings lead to having no or less attachment. The first one is (to eradicate) wrong view or wrong view of the idea of self. **** S: I'd be interested to hear any further comments you or others may have. Metta, Sarah p.s Thx for your other feedback on the response to Phil's letter and the helpful points he raised. ========= #84947 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:09 am Subject: Sense-pleasures: definition? antony272b2 Dear Group, Once I briefly mentioned to my father the Buddhist critique of sense-pleasures. His reply was "but everything is sense pleasure", which on the surface seems to agree with the Sabba Sutta: The All http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html My present idea is that sensual pleasures are cittas associated with lobha (greed, lust, craving). Is it true that with music lobha strings together otherwise cacophonous moments of sound into a tune? Sense-pleasures are time-consuming whereas much of the benefit of meditation or reflecting on the Dhamma is immediate in the present. How do we avoid our Buddhist study and practice becoming sense-pleasures? Thanks / Antony. #84948 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] At the Foundation on 5th April (5) sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Howard), --- han tun wrote: >...can you kindly write your interpretation > of “sati” and “satipatthaana.” .... S: a)Sati means awareness or mindfulness. It is only ever a sobhana cetasika (beautiful mental factor)which arises with every wholesome (or sobhana) citta. It never arises with an unwholesome citta. It 'guards' its object, like a door-keeper. Its proximate cause is sanna. When there is sati, there is also wise attention. However, sati doesn't always arise with panna (right understanding). ... b)There are 3 meanings of satipatthana. A lot of detail is given on this in the Sammohavinodani, commentary to the Vibhanga, ch7 'Classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness (satipa.t.thaanabibha"nga). I believe the same can be found in the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta. It says in the Sammohavinodani: 1011 "Satipa.t.thaana ("foundations of mindfulness"): there are three kinds of foundation of mindfulness, (1) the domain of mindfulness (satigocaro), [S: referring to the objects, the 4 foundations, i.e the body-rupas, feelings, cittas, all dhammas] {2) the Master's threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice]itdhaa pa.tipannesu saavakesu Satthuno pa.tighaanunaya-viitivattataa)[S: referring to the path followed by the ariyan disciples], and (3) mindfulness (sati)[S: this is sati cetasika which is aware of realities, supported by panna and the other 8-fold path factors] The text says for this last one: 1015 "(3) But in such passages as: "The four foundations of mindfulness being developed and frequently practised perfect the seven enlightenment factors" (S v 329), it is mindfulness itself that is called the "foundation of mindfulness". The meaning of that is: "what founds" (pati.t.thaati) is "foundation" (pa.t.thaana); it is established (ipa.t.thaati); "having gone down into, entered into, it proceeds" is the meaning. [Thus] mindfulenss itself in the sense of foundation (pa.t.thaana.t.thena) is "foundation of mindfulness" (satipa.t.thaana)." **** S: I hope this clarifies. Please let me know if there is anything further to discuss on this important topic. Metta, Sarah ========= #84949 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] At the Foundation on 5th April (5) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- sarah abbott wrote: > (3) mindfulness (sati)[S: this is sati cetasika which is aware of > realities, supported by panna and the other 8-fold path factors] > > The text says for this last one: > 1015 "(3) But in such passages as: "The four foundations of mindfulness > being developed and frequently practised perfect the seven enlightenment > factors" (S v 329), it is mindfulness itself that is called the > "foundation of mindfulness". The meaning of that is: "what founds" > (pati.t.thaati) is "foundation" (pa.t.thaana); it is established > (ipa.t.thaati); "having gone down into, entered into, it proceeds" is > the meaning. [Thus] mindfulenss itself in the sense of foundation > (pa.t.thaana.t.thena) is "foundation of mindfulness" (satipa.t.thaana)." .... S: I just checked some of these Pali terms in the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta (which you said you were looking at) and I believe this is the Pali from the commentary which I believe is the same as the passage I quoted above: "....cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa bhaavitaa bahuliikataa satta bojjha"nge paripuurentii''tiaadiisu (sa.m0 ni0 5.989) pana satiyeva``satipa.t.thaana''nti vuccati. tassattho -- pati.t.thaatiiti pa.t.thaana.m, upa.t.thaati okkantitvaa pakkhanditvaa pavattatiiti attho. satiyeva pa.t.thaana.m satipa.t.thaana.m. atha vaa sara.na.t.thena sati, upa.t.thaana.t.thena pa.t.thaana.m. iti sati ca saa pa.t.thaana~ncaatipi satipa.t.thaana.m. idamidha adhippeta.m." Looking forward to any further discussion with you. Please let us know how you and your wife are getting on too. Jon and I think of you both often. Metta, Sarah ========= #84950 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:14 am Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? jonoabb Hi Collette > With regards to addressing your request for clarification (I have a > few empty burners on the stove top so I guess I can clarify some > butter), you show your ignorance without properly identifying it as > ignorance which could be a psychological problem or handicap which > would hold you back. So lets start warming up that lump of butter: Thanks for the clarify-cation that follows. > the point of synethesia is that the brain or mind actually cognizes > things using more than a single sense i.e. eye consciousness can and > is also used by blind persons that have nevere had sight or sound > waves reverberating against the body making them a tactile > consciousness and not simply the ear consciousness. I am showing, > here, that our focus and obsession with identifying each of the eight > consciousnesses is misleading or Miss Leading and inevitably leads > down the path of WRONG VIEW. To take the second example you give above ("sound waves reverberating against the body making them a tactile consciousness and not simply the ear consciousness"), this as you correctly say is an experience by body-consciousness, i.e. of hardness/softness, etc. Now we think of the hardness that is experienced as being the "sound waves" of the sound that is being heard at the same time. But in fact there is no "sound" in the tactile experience, just as there is no hardness in the audible object being experienced through the ear-door. > colette: now you're right there with me since I require, in Western > Theological forums and groups, other more learned colleagues that > have memorized these scriptures upon which I base my shamanism. > > It sounds as though you are desirous of learning more of my views and > concepts however I lack that profound ability to express the entirety > of the illuminations I receive in and through my meditations. Alternatively, what are perceived as "illuminations" to our (private) thinking may not survive the glare of exposure to the rest of the world ;-)). Jon #84951 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sense-pleasures: definition? sarahprocter... Hi Antony, Always good to see you around:-) How are you keeping? --- Antony Woods wrote: > Once I briefly mentioned to my father the Buddhist critique of > sense-pleasures. > His reply was "but everything is sense pleasure", ... S: Quite an astute comment of your father's. It's true that all day, every day, we are constantly craving for sense pleasures of one kind or other. ... > which on the surface seems to agree with the Sabba Sutta: The All > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html > > My present idea is that sensual pleasures are cittas associated with > lobha (greed, lust, craving). ... S: That's about it... ... >Is it true that with music lobha strings > together otherwise cacophonous moments of sound into a tune? ... S: Of course, sanna, vitakka and other mental states play very important roles, but yes, usually, lots of lobha too.. ... S: Oops, out of time here....so I'll let others respond more fully and also to your other comments. Metta (and lobha), Sarah > > Sense-pleasures are time-consuming whereas much of the benefit of > meditation or reflecting on the Dhamma is immediate in the present. > > How do we avoid our Buddhist study and practice becoming > sense-pleasures? #84952 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] eCard from Bangkok - Sunday jonoabb Hi Howard > First, it is necessary to know what is meant by "self" [J: which I > understand top mean, by taking things for self]. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree 100% that this is necessary. I had made that point once on DSG, > and someone disputed it. I think that someone could have been me ;-)) At the time, I thought the point you were making was a somewhat different one. Apologies for that misunderstanding. > On another list, I expressed my view of 'self' as meaning "singular, > independent identity." I went on to say the following with regard to that notion > of 'self': > "Persons and all other composites are aggregations of paramattha > dhammas, and hence are not singular. I think the message of the suttas is that dhammas that are real in the ultimate sense are to be seen as they truly are, and that it is the development of the understanding of what is real in the ultimate sense that leads to liberation. So in that sense what you refer to as aggregations are not the focus of the teachings. > Moreover, the paramattha dhammas of which they > are composed have an existence that is utterly contingent, and thus they are > not independent. The suttas do not speak of the "dhammas of which persons or conventional objects are composed". What we learn from passages such as the chariot simile is that there is *an idea of* a person etc that is created out of the existence of the 5 khandhas. Dhammas are conditioned, that is to say, they arise dependent on a cause. Is there any further meaning to be understood by the expressions "utterly contingent" and "not independent"? > Finally, nibbana is beyond all condition and all > characterization, and hence lacks identity. > I don't recall having seen it said that nibbana is "beyond characterization" or "lacks identity". In what sense is this so? > Well, that's a very brief summary. Time now to go down for > pre-breakfast swim and exercise, in preparation for another day of > long hours of sitting (no, not that kind!). > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > LOLOL! (You LITERALLY don't know what you are missing! ;-)) > Lol. Literally true, of course. But then, am I missing anything I shouldn't be? ;-)) > BTW, with > your pre-breakfast swims, exercise, lovely meals etc, it seems you have created > one helluva sensual Dhamma realm right here on earth! ;-)) > All my own doing, too!! Jon #84953 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Walto & Sarah) - In a message dated 4/21/2008 8:20:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Walter (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Walter Horn" wrote: > In any case, my point was not that people should attempt to obtain > sammadhi or any particular sort of exquisite state or understanding > prior to working on kindness. On the contrary, I said that many > people may simply not be able to exhibit kindness unless they have > becalmed themselves first. Just as someone may not be able to > receive the benefits of sleep without first counting sheep, another > may not be able to feel good wishes toward a driver who has cut him > off in traffic without having practiced recitation or meditation > first. I like your examples. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I do too, and also I like what you have to say here, James. ------------------------------------------------------- When it comes to meditation, I am often reminded of Maslow's Hierachy of Needs. One must meet certain needs before there can be higher levels of realization (often accompanied by meditation). If you are too hungry, too tired, too sick, too worried about your finances, too stressed out out your work- relationships-family, etc., it is nearly impossible to meditate or to generate metta toward others. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This mention of hunger, tiredness, and illness reminds me of the bodhisatta when after his extreme, ascetic practices he accepted some simple sustenance of rice pudding from a kindly, young woman, Sujata, which enabled him to quickly regain full vigor, and to go on to recall his childhood meditation under the rose apple tree and renew that natural practice leading to his full awakening under the bodhi tree. None of this, though, implies that one should ignore practice when hungry, tired, or ill (or upset or in any other particular state) and unable to do much about it at the time, but it does imply that extreme impediments should be removed when possible, to provide as favorable an opportunity as possible. (If the buddha-to-be required normalization, surely we do! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ You must take care of your basic needs first before you can attempt to reach the higher levels of realization. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. The optimal state for progress involves body and mind "at the middle", with neither gross suffering nor ecstatic delight, with a body not overly stressed nor overly excited and a mind like a lute with strings neither too slack nor too tight. A normalized, "middle level" of existence is best, if not in fact a sine qua non. This is why, for example, life as a human is deemed far more favorable to progress not only than life in the lower realms but also in the heaven realms. ---------------------------------------------------- The Vism. also describes this necessity in many passages. Metta, James ============================ With metta, Howard #84954 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:05 am Subject: Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (5) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your very comprehensive explanation about sati and satipatthaana. I have no further question on your explanation. It is very clear. But I have a question from another point of view. If you read DN 22 Maha-satipatthaana sutta, say, on the contemplation of mind, you will find the following passage, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html (C. Mind) (1) "And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion. (2) "When the mind is restricted, he discerns that the mind is restricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released. (3) "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself, or externally on the mind in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the mind in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the mind, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the mind, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the mind. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a mind' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself. -------------------- I have numbered the paragraphs for ease of reference. Now, my question is: Am I right if I say that paragraph (1) and (2) involve only sati, and satipatthaana is applicable only to paragraph (3)? Or, is it that it is not applicable at all which paragraph is sati and which paragraph is satipatthaana? Respectfully, Han P.S. My wife is slowly recovering at home. She will report to the Cardiologist for follow-up on 24 April. For me, the urinary infection and the gout are still pestering me. Although not life-threatening they are a nuisance to me. I am still taking medicines. #84955 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] eCard from Bangkok - Sunday upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/22/2008 7:34:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard > First, it is necessary to know what is meant by "self" [J: which I > understand top mean, by taking things for self]. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree 100% that this is necessary. I had made that point once on DSG, > and someone disputed it. I think that someone could have been me ;-)) At the time, I thought the point you were making was a somewhat different one. Apologies for that misunderstanding. > On another list, I expressed my view of 'self' as meaning "singular, > independent identity." I went on to say the following with regard to that notion > of 'self': > "Persons and all other composites are aggregations of paramattha > dhammas, and hence are not singular. I think the message of the suttas is that dhammas that are real in the ultimate sense are to be seen as they truly are, and that it is the development of the understanding of what is real in the ultimate sense that leads to liberation. So in that sense what you refer to as aggregations are not the focus of the teachings. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: They are not the focus, but they are also not ignored. The Buddha certainly spoke of many sorts of collections, including bodies, persons, and, most of all, the five aggregates. They are mere collections. What IS the focus, IMO, isn't the paramattha dhammas per se, either, but the nature of all phenomena as anicca, dukkha, and anatta - as fleeting, unsatisfactory, and as insubstantial, dependent, and conditioned. ---------------------------------------------------- > Moreover, the paramattha dhammas of which they > are composed have an existence that is utterly contingent, and thus they are > not independent. The suttas do not speak of the "dhammas of which persons or conventional objects are composed". What we learn from passages such as the chariot simile is that there is *an idea of* a person etc that is created out of the existence of the 5 khandhas. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Collections of dhammas are not themselves dhammas, and the idea of them as individual things is erroneous. ------------------------------------------------------ Dhammas are conditioned, that is to say, they arise dependent on a cause. Is there any further meaning to be understood by the expressions "utterly contingent" and "not independent"? -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The only additional meaning is emphasis. And the emphasis is important for guarding against grasping at the ungraspable. --------------------------------------------------------- > Finally, nibbana is beyond all condition and all > characterization, and hence lacks identity. > I don't recall having seen it said that nibbana is "beyond characterization" or "lacks identity". In what sense is this so? -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: If you are able to grasp nibbana via concept and language, I salute you, Jon! For me, what is beyond conditions, is beyond description. Only denials and negatives can apply. Anything else is merely suggestive, and positive ascriptions are ultimately misleading. -------------------------------------------------------------- > Well, that's a very brief summary. Time now to go down for > pre-breakfast swim and exercise, in preparation for another day of > long hours of sitting (no, not that kind!). > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > LOLOL! (You LITERALLY don't know what you are missing! ;-)) > Lol. Literally true, of course. But then, am I missing anything I shouldn't be? ;-)) > BTW, with > your pre-breakfast swims, exercise, lovely meals etc, it seems you have created > one helluva sensual Dhamma realm right here on earth! ;-)) > All my own doing, too!! -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Hah! The dangers of intentional action, eh?! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------- Jon ============================= With metta, Howard #84956 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:30 am Subject: Guardians of the world - shame and moral dread (was Re: At the Foundation) scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Thanks for the reply: P: "But I'm not saying what I did based on what my idea of hiri and otappa is. I'm talking about the textbook definitions...take this passage from the CMA (II-5): 'Their proximate cause is respect for self and respect for others, respectively. These two states are called by the Buddha the guardians of the world because they protect the world from fallng into widespread immorality.' ...But you can see where I get confused. "Respect for self" doesn't, surely, mean respect for atta, but....what does it mean?" Scott: Atthasaalinii (p.84) states: "Immediate occasion (pada.t.thaana.m) means proximate cause." In the case of the pair hiri and ottappa, wouldn't this proximate cause, or the footing for the arising of this inseparable pair of mental factors, refer to thoughts about self and others - i.e., concepts? These cetasikas arise together with kusala citta. I don't think that the conventional notions of shame and guilt apply. Dosa is different than hiri and ottappa. I'd suggest that thoughts about a self who is ashamed about this or that action, and the accompanying subjective unhappiness, are not the same as the two mental factors of hiri and ottappa arising in the moment with kusala citta. I think these mental factors are part of the kusala moment, contributing to and supporting its 'kusala nature'. Sincerely, Scott. #84957 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:25 am Subject: Metta, Ch 2, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, If we are in a similar situation, thus, when we are reviled, can mettå arise? Or must we, when someone else is angry, treat him likewise? Can we change our mood and forgive him instead of being angry in return? When there is anger, no matter whose anger it is, there is no calm, there is the wish to cause injury, to do harm. When we see the anger of someone else, his mood of wanting to do harm, and we understand the disadvantage of it, do we want to treat him likewise? When we see the disadvantage of dosa, there are conditions for the arising of mettå. We should develop mettå so that we are able to forgive someone else, even if he does wrong to us through body or speech. We read in the following sutta in the Kindred Sayings (I, Chapter VII, Brahmin Suttas, 1, Arahats, §3, Asurinda): Again, while the Exalted One was at Bamboo Grove, an Asurinda Bhåradvåja brahmin also heard that the Bhåradvåja had entered the Sangha, and he, vexed and displeased, also went and reviled and abused the Exalted One with rude and harsh words. When the he had thus spoken, the Exalted One remained silent. Then said the Asurinda: “You are conquered, recluse, you are conquered!” The Buddha said: The fool does deem the victory his In that he plays the bully with rude speech. To him who knows what forbearance is, This in itself makes him conqueror Worse of the two is he who when reviled Reviles again, repays in kind. We then read that also Asurinda became a monk and attained arahatship. ******* Nina. #84958 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Story of Two Friends nilovg Dear Ganesh, I liked the story of the two friends. A reminder that book study is not the purpose of the teachings, that it is not sufficient to only study the texts. Nina. Op 21-apr-2008, om 12:00 heeft S.Ganesh het volgende geschreven: > Thus, the scholar enjoys only the services > rendered to him by his pupils but not the benefits of Magga-phala. The > other bhikkhu, though he knows little and recites only a little of the > sacred texts, having clearly comprehended the essence of the Dhamma > and > having practised diligently and strenuously, is an 'anudhammacari'**, > who has eradicated passion, ill will and ignorance. #84959 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:26 am Subject: Bangkok seminars pannabahulo My dear Dhamma friends, I am sorry for my delay in replying.Tomorrow I will go into hospital for a few days as the doctors seem to feel that I am in need of some rest. When I return I will write up a report giving my personal experiences of the seminars. I just want to say now that those 4 days were the most rewarding and valuable learning experience I have ever had. All my last areas of resistance were demolished and I saw clearly the wisdom of Ajan Sujin's teaching.That IS the Lord Buddha's Dhamma. None of that would have been possible without the tremendous support by what I can only describe as the nicest and most sincere group of people I have ever met.You are all indeed the 'Noble Friends'that the Lord Buddha encouraged us to seek out.I look forward to seeing as many of you as possible in August. The extreme disappoinment in returning to these temples and monasteies where Dhamma has been replaced by customs, traditions and superstitions is really saddening. This is leading me through a heavy period of 'Soul searching'(Even though I don't have a soul)the outcome of which - at the moment - is highly uncertain. In addition to all the help on the level of Dhamma,I also want to thank Elle for the wonderful food,Ivan for his perfect cups of coffee which kept us all awake in the Songkran heat,Robert, Ivan, Elle and Sukin for the transport; Jonothan and sarah for all the preaparation and help to ensure my outstanding questions were dealt with - and for everyone whose contributions made the whole experience extremely valuable and fun at the same time. I was also very happy to meet Nina and Ludovig and to be a part of their visit to Thailand. Over the next few days I will have a chance to listen again to the discussion tapes; this will help me clarify the specific points that helped the whole facade of remaining doubts to shatter into pieces. It was with great joy that I cancelled a meditation course I had booked for next month. What a tremendous sense of relief to be free of all that delusion!! More anon... I promise. With metta, blessings and missing you all, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu #84960 From: "connie" Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:09 am Subject: Perfections Corner (130) nichiconn Dear Friends, The final installment of Chapter One, The Perfection of Generosity: We read in the "Basket of Conduct", Division II, the Perfection of Renunciation, no.1, "Conduct of Yudha~njaya", about the Bodhisatta Yudha~njaya, a King's son. He saw a dewdrop that vanished by the heat of the sun and this reminded him of impermanence and caused him to wish to renounce worldly life. The Commentary to this section states: "Pa~n~naa of the beginning stage that considers the impermanence of realities, knows which dhammas are beneficial concerning generosity etc. and which are not. This is the perfection of pa~n~naa." Daana, generosity, is the giving away of objects for the benefit and happiness of others. When we give things away we are not selfish. Pa~n~naa of the beginning stage considers the impermanence of realities. Did we ever consider at the moment of giving that there is nothing lasting? Even possessions that we still have today and that we have not yet given away may vanish before we can give them away, because they are impermanent. Even we ourselves who have not yet given away things are impermanent, we may die even before we have the opportunity to be generous. When we reflect on the impermanence of those who give and those who receive, kusala citta may motivate us to give assistance to others. When we give away things that are beneficial to others with the understanding of the impermanence of everything, the perfection of wisdom can develop. We can only know for ourselves whether we consider impermanence at such moments. When we meet people who are poor, we can reflect on the unsatisfactoriness of life and on impermanence before giving, at the moment of giving and after having given, thus at the three moments of wholesome intention, kusala cetanaa, with regard to giving. Some people feel joy with regard to some kinds of daana, not to all kinds, and when they recollect their generosity afterwards they are delighted and have attachment to their generosity. This shows that there may be wholesome intention, kusala cetanaa, before giving, and at the moment of giving, but that afterwards there may not be kusala citta. We should investigate, when we recollect our generosity after we have given, whether the citta is kusala citta or akusala citta. We may be happy when we consider that we have done something beneficial, that we have given assistance to people so that they are free from suffering. Others may not give assistance to them because they may not know of their needs. When we have given assistance to people and we recollect the kusala we have performed, we may feel delighted, but this is non-self, anattaa; it is beyond control whether happiness arises or not. Happy feeling may arise because we had an opportunity to help someone who was in need and whom we should give assistance. However, if we desire to recollect our kusala in order to have benefit for ourselves, it is not the perfection of generosity. The difference between generosity that is a perfection and that which is not, is very subtle. connie The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment www.zolag.co.uk #84961 From: "connie" Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:52 am Subject: Perfections Corner nichiconn Dear Han, Please accept my best wishes for your own and your wife's health, along with congratulations for the opportunities facing these adversities bring. If there is no objection or any other takers, I will go ahead and begin ch.2/Morality within the next couple of days, beginning with #131. peace, connie #84962 From: mlnease@... Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. m_nease Hi Walto, Hope you don't mind my poking my nose in-- >...in my view serenity alone is nothing to be scoffed at. According to the texts, tranquility is one of nineteen beautiful universal mental factors, factors that are invariably present in all beautiful consciousnesses. These, as I understand it, can arise with or without understanding. I don't think that any beautiful mental factor is to be scoffed at. I do think that tranquility unassociated with understanding is common to most if not all religions and probably a good many philosophies too. It is associated with wholesome volition and leads to happy results, including from a Buddhist perspective favorable rebirths. The goal of Dhamma is the end of rebirth, the third noble truth. By conditioning future rebirths, even kusala kamma--wholesome volition--leads into sa.msaara--'faring on'--rather than out of it. This, as I see it, is the chief difference between Dhamma and religion or philosophy. If the Buddha's doctrine as preserved in the Pa.li texts is true (as I take it to be, at least as a working hypothesis),then understanding in the form of profound insight into dhammas (as opposed to concepts or designations) is the only path leading to the goal. This alone is what makes the Buddhadhamma uniquely different from any other doctrine, religion or philosophy as I understand it. So is tranquility nice? You bet--just like all the other beautiful factors--whether you're a Hindu, a Mormon, an Atheist, a Muslim, a Christian, a Buddhist or whatever. But without understanding, it's useless in terms of the four noble truths, as I see it. Just my two cents' worth, thanks for your patience. mike #84963 From: mlnease@... Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan m_nease Hi Sarah, > S: What arises doesn't necessarily *appear* as the object > of cittas at this moment or commonly during the day. > > I think phassa is a good example. We know it arises with > every single citta, but is its characteristic experienced > now? Of course, only panna can tell. This seems to me to suggest that only dhammas that are the objects of cognitive processes 'appear'--is this correct? > I think it's a significant point. > > Pls let me know if there's more to discuss here. I see > Nina has also replied. > > As I suggested, this was one of the areas which Kom raised > before he re-ordained. I think this message in a > discussion I had with him gives an indication: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/57355 > > I'd be happy to discuss any of these points further. > > Here's a note of some comments KS made to another friend > which I just came across in the recording we're currently > working on. It may be relevant. (note: none of KS's > comments I give are exact quotes) > > KS: Usually when there's not enough understanding, there's > the intention to be aware, e.g., 'Oh, I remember that this > is hardness which should be known and studied'. But with > the intention it's not the right awareness and > understanding at all. > > So panna has to know exactly what is the path and what is > the real one, otherwise one is motivated by the self all > the time. So how can there be the elimination of the idea > of the self when the self is trying so hard? All the > teachings lead to having no or less attachment. The first > one is (to eradicate) wrong view or wrong view of the idea > of self. **** > S: I'd be interested to hear any further comments you or > others may have. Thanks Sarah, I certainly have no disagreement with the above. mike #84964 From: mlnease@... Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan m_nease Hi Nina, > I am butting in because I just wrote to Ken about appear. > Op 21-apr-2008, om 20:25 heeft mlnease@... het > volgende geschreven: > > > This rang a bell and reminded me of a question I had > > about a previous post, regarding KS's frequent use of > > 'appear' rather than 'arise'. Sorry if this is redundant > > , but could you please elaborate on this and on why > > phassa doesn't 'appear'? > ------- > N: When a dhamma has arisen it may appear to sati and > pa~n~naa. Phassa is a dhamma and it has characteristic, > but the question is: for whom will it be object of sati > and pa~n~naa? The first stage of insight is knowing the > difference between nama and rupa. If the difference > between seeing and visible object is not known can we say > that phassa is clearly known? Surely not. So when KS says 'appear', she's referring to objects with the potential for early stages of insight? mike #84965 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (30) nilovg Dear Han, Op 22-apr-2008, om 11:13 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I do not think it is Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi’s personal idea. There is > also Pali text to it, which I assume was written by Acariya > Anuruddha, and translated by Ven Mahathera Narada, and translation > revised by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. > > I find this grouping also in The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by > Dr. Mehm Tin Mon (pages 345-350). ------ N: If it is Pali text, do continue with the groupings. I look again at my copy. Nina. #84966 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (30) nilovg Dear Sarah and Han, Op 22-apr-2008, om 11:41 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > yathaaraha.m navadhaa naamaruupaani naamaruupaana.m paccayaa > bhavanti." > > "Mind-and-matter is a condition for mind-and-matter in nine ways > according > to circumstances, ------ N: According to circumstances, yathaaraha.m. makes it clear now. It has to be applied in this or that case, as is fitting. Nina. #84967 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan nilovg Dear Mike, Op 22-apr-2008, om 20:34 heeft mlnease@... het volgende geschreven: > If the difference > > between seeing and visible object is not known can we say > > that phassa is clearly known? > > Surely not. So when KS says 'appear', she's referring to > objects with the potential for early stages of insight? ------- N: Not so far away, even when sati begins to be aware of different dhammas, we can say that it is aware of the dhamma that appears now. When you touch a plate, you may always have thought : I touch a plate. But actually, it is hardness, heat or cold that may appear and that is different from thinking of a plate. Nina. #84968 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan nilovg Hi Ken H, Op 22-apr-2008, om 3:09 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > This brings back memories of the meetings I attended. I think K Sujin > made that point over and over. And I think I was impressed by it and > nodded sagaciously every time thinking, "Yes, very good, I will > remember that." > > And, of course, I promptly forgot it. Every time! And I will probably > forget it this time too. :-( ------- N: I told Lodewijk and he said that he keeps on forgetting for years. It is very common, and that is why I make notes and tape for myself. We have to hear over and over again until it sinks in and than, when we understand more, we do not forget. Lodewijk said as to hearing, also reading is included. He finds in the suttas such impressive reminders. Do not sit back, refraining from posting, as you suggested (I now behave to you as you to Dan), all your descriptions of your reactions and observations are useful. Nina. #84969 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Dear Mike, Thanks for your thoughtful post. I had written something earlier today on Ganesh's story of the examinations which was tangentially on this matter, but it was apparently eaten by internet mind parasites. I don't want to try to recreate it all, but I guess I can say that it seems to me that there is a high degree of intellectuality suggested both in your post and in that story. In a tale about how mastery of passion and ill-will through Dhamma is more important than scholarly study of texts, we see that this greater virtue was demonstrated in of all things....the answers to a pop quiz! What verbal questions (rather than behavioral tests), one wonders, could The Buddha have asked the two students so that the master of his emotions would far exceed the scholar in demonstrating knowledge of Dhamma? As you say, I have said that tranquility is nice. You point out that it's not and ought not to be considered the be-all and end-all of religious practice. I agree. Ganesh's story shows that careful study of texts isn't really where it's at either. But if both can be helpful in developing metta, why not bless them both? There are, as the English philosopher Gilbert Ryle used to say, both 'knowledge that' and 'knowledge how.' Think of how little most of us know of what our bodies must do for us to be able to swim or ride a bicycle. We have to just get in the water or on the bike and....try. But while some may feel the need to know a bit of the kineasthetic theory before jumping in, others may need to find a way to relax before doing so. What are those different yogas the Vedantists talk about Jnana, Bhakti, a couple of others?--each leading in its way to the promised land? All best, W #84970 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:24 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner hantun1 Dear Connie, Thank you very much for your best wishes for my health and my wife’s. With mettaa and karunaa from our friends we are getting better. As regards the Perfections, I will be most grateful to you if you would kindly go ahead with the remaining three chapters. Respectfully, Han #84971 From: "Chew" Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandha Yamaka - Study Report 23 chewsadhu --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Chew and Sarah, > Op 19-apr-2008, om 9:10 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > Guide: > > > Wrong views based on perception are wrong view mental factor. > > They are > > > perception. They are not perception aggregate. Perception > > aggregate is > > > perception mental factor. > ------ > N: I am trying to figure this out. The term sa~n~naa can be used more > widely, in association with wrong view or right view, such as atta- > sa~n~naa and anattaa sa~n~naa. Here di.t.thi sa~n~naa is di.t.thi > and it is sankhaarakkhandha. > Nina. > > Dear Nina and Sarah, Yes, Nina, as you said the term 'di.t.thi sa~n~naa' refers to 'di.t.thi cetasika' and it belongs to the aggregate of mental formation. Venerable Bhikkhu Dhammanando said: "The examples given of this usage are the Sutta term 'papa~ncasa~n~naa' and the term 'sa~n~nasatto' in the Suddha.t.thaka Sutta: saya.m samaadaaya vataani jantu, uccaavaca.m gacchati sa~n~nasatto vidvaa ca vedehi samecca dhamma.m, na uccaavaca.m gacchati bhuuripa~n~no A mortal undertaking vows himself, being attached to perceptions, advances and backslides. But the sage, the one of abundant wisdom, neither advances nor backslides, having realized the Dhamma by means of the knowledges [of the way]. (Suttanipaata 798)" To listen to what my teacher said: at Youtube : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbPk8vHcxYQ&feature to download : http://www.mediafire.com/?bsarlz1dygm to play via online MP3 player : http://boomp3.com/m/18318c6f8e90 #84972 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:04 pm Subject: Re: Bangkok seminars buddhatrue Hi Ven. P, I know that I am not your favorite person but I thought I would give you some feedback anyway: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > My dear Dhamma friends, > > I am sorry for my delay in replying.Tomorrow I will go into hospital > for a few days as the doctors seem to feel that I am in need of some > rest. When I return I will write up a report giving my personal > experiences of the seminars. James: I am glad that you are going to the hospital to get some rest. As I have been continually posting to you, you need to take care of your health first! When you have your health back, both physically and mentally, then you can more carefully consider the Dhamma. You don't seem to be in any condition to make life changing choices. > I just want to say now that those 4 days were the most rewarding and > valuable learning experience I have ever had. All my last areas of > resistance were demolished and I saw clearly the wisdom of Ajan > Sujin's teaching.That IS the Lord Buddha's Dhamma. James: I am very incredulous at this sort of statement, as it sounds manic and overblown. I will eagerly read your further updates- when you are rested. > None of that would have been possible without the tremendous support > by what I can only describe as the nicest and most sincere group of > people I have ever met.You are all indeed the 'Noble Friends'that the > Lord Buddha encouraged us to seek out.I look forward to seeing as > many of you as possible in August. James: I am sure that they are a very nice group of people. I also met Jon and Sarah in person and they were very nice. They even helped me exchange money when the banks were closed (and I think Jon got short changed!). But, personality does not equal wisdom. You could also go to a meeting of the Hare Krishnas and find a very nice group of people. That doesn't mean you should be in the airport with a tamborine passing out flowers! I advise you to proceed with caution and don't confuse personality with the Dhamma. > The extreme disappoinment in returning to these temples and > monasteies where Dhamma has been replaced by customs, traditions and > superstitions is really saddening. This is leading me through a heavy > period of 'Soul searching'(Even though I don't have a soul)the > outcome of which - at the moment - is highly uncertain. James: Again, I don't see this as a time for you to be making life changing decisions. Additionally, rather than judging all of those "customs, traditions, and superstitions" you find in the Thai temples, you should be focusing on your own mind and your own development. Because if you think that there are less "customs, traditions, and superstitions" outside of the Thai temples in the "real world", think again. It is the same thing in different forms. Please, don't let the influence of K. Sujin turn you against or away from the Sangha. > In addition to all the help on the level of Dhamma,I also want to > thank Elle for the wonderful food,Ivan for his perfect cups of coffee > which kept us all awake in the Songkran heat,Robert, Ivan, Elle and > Sukin for the transport; Jonothan and sarah for all the preaparation > and help to ensure my outstanding questions were dealt with - and > for everyone whose contributions made the whole experience extremely > valuable and fun at the same time. > I was also very happy to meet Nina and Ludovig and to be a part of > their visit to Thailand. > Over the next few days I will have a chance to listen again to the > discussion tapes; this will help me clarify the specific points that > helped the whole facade of remaining doubts to shatter into pieces. James: I will be reading this report with great interest. > It was with great joy that I cancelled a meditation course I had > booked for next month. James: Probably more like "great relief". It appears that you are in no shape for a meditation course. What a tremendous sense of relief to be free > of all that delusion!! James: Oh, I wouldn't be throwing that word "delusion" around so casually- at least not yet. > More anon... I promise. > With metta, blessings and missing you all, > > Pannabahulo Bhikkhu > Metta, James #84973 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 251, 252 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, This is very interesting that clinging conditions kamma. One aspect of this is that clinging conditions desire. So we have feeling conditions desire and clinging conditions desire. Nina: "As we read in the text of the Visuddhimagga, 'kamma-process becoming in brief is both volition and the states of covetousness, etc., associated with the volition', thus, the cetasikas that accompany volition, but, according to the Tiika, strictly speaking volition, cetanaa, is kamma. Larry: I can see very well how insight leads to the abandonment of desire, but I find it difficult to see how insight could lead to the destruction of volition. "Volition" seems to mean "action" or "will". Perhaps "will" would be more appropriate to kamma and "action" would be more appropriate to the cetana of an arahant. How do you see it? I wonder if there is a connection between the end of kammic volition and the realization of "no control". Larry #84974 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Guardians of the world - shame and moral dread (was Re: At the Foundation) lbidd2 Hi Phil, Scott and Nina, "Their proximate cause is respect for self and respect for others, respectively. These two states are called by the Buddha the guardians of the world because they protect the world from falling into widespread immorality." Maybe they are the guardians of the world because they can arise even without insight. If awareness of present realities was necessary, I don't think the world could participate. A sense of morality is common to all even though we don't always live according to the best principles. Larry #84975 From: "individual36" Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:45 pm Subject: Abhidamma contrasted with modern science. individual36 I have a lot of questions when it comes to contrasting Abhidhamma with science, but it would be too long of a discussion if I laid all of my questions out at once. So, my most central question: Why should we take the "four great elements" seriously, as being literally true? The idea of classical elements has existed cross-culturally and the idea can be contrasted with other lists, like in Greece. It seems to be a primitive understanding of elementary physics, whereby everything is characterized as atoms composed literally of the most visible phenomena (earth, fire, water, air). As time went on and it was clear that these visible phenomena were reducible, it seems like the Buddhist elements were interpreted more metaphorically. This is a problem, though, because an elaborate metaphorical interpretation isn't very clear. For instance, it's commonly said that there are three states-of-matter: solids, liquids, and gases. These could roughly correspond to earth, water, and air. Well, actually, there are more than three states-of-matter. There are several. One more notable one is "plasma." Artificial reactions like fluorescent lights, neon signs, and plasma ball lamps are all plasma. Lightning is a form of naturally occurring plasma and stars in space by give off plasma as well. Based on the previous list -- if solids are the earth element, liquids are the water element, and gases are the air element, would plasmas be fire? This makes sense and historically, cross-culturally, lightning has been likened to fire. But they're actually distinct. Fire is actually just a hot gas, while lightning is a hot plasma, a totally different substance. Referring to lightning as "fire," wouldn't make much sense, then, because it isn't anything like a gas. But then again, as we just clarified a moment ago, aren't gases supposed to be "air"? Or perhaps some gases are air while others are fire? If so, which ones? This elaborate metaphorical interpretation just isn't very practical or meaningful, which is why nobody uses it anymore. As a result, the classical elements were eventually refined into the periodic table of elements (in chemistry, down to the atomic level) and the standard model of fundamental particles (in physics, beneath the atomic level). Even both of these models, though, are still being developed and haven't likely accounted for all of the chemical elements and sub-atomic particles, as new elements and particles are discovered, as time goes by. The four elements are said to be irreducible, but clearly today, earth, fire, water, and air can all be reduced. Even if we consider them metaphorically to be solidity, cohesion, temperature, and motion, these too can be reduced by modern science and also, some of those aren't even physical properties or substances, but are particular processes, so it doesn't make much sense to call it an "element." #84976 From: mlnease@... Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. m_nease Hi Walto, > Thanks for your thoughtful post. You're most welcome, and back at ye-- > I had written something earlier today on Ganesh's story of > the examinations which was tangentially on this matter, > but it was apparently eaten by internet mind parasites. There seem to be a lot of those about-- > I don't want to try to recreate it all, but I guess I can > say that it seems to me that there is a high degree of > intellectuality suggested both in your post and in that > story. Is that good, bad, or...? > In a tale about how mastery of passion and > ill-will through Dhamma is more important than scholarly > study of texts, we see that this greater virtue was > demonstrated in of all things...the answers to a pop > quiz! So, do you take arahantship to mean mastery of passion and ill-will? > What verbal questions (rather than behavioral tests), one > wonders, could The Buddha have asked the two students so > that the master of his emotions would far exceed the > scholar in demonstrating knowledge of Dhamma? The teachings contain descriptions of states achieved by the arahant as well as the means to achieve them. Since, in this story, the Buddha is trying to save the younger brother from calamitous kamma, he asks questions that, though pertinent to the teachings, are known by the arahant (who knows both 'knowledge that' and 'knowledge how' from personal experience) despite his ignorance of (some of) the teachings, as I see it. > As you say, I have said that tranquility is nice. You > point out that it's not and ought not to be considered > the be-all and end-all of religious practice. I agree. > Ganesh's story shows that careful study of texts isn't > really where it's at either. But if both can be helpful > in developing metta, why not bless them both? According to the texts, mettaa, in the sense of adosa, is also a universal beautiful mental factor that can arise with or without understanding. It is not (as I see it) the goal any more than tranquility is, for the same reasons I mentioned earlier. > There are, as the English philosopher Gilbert Ryle used to > say, both 'knowledge that' and 'knowledge how.' I like this-- > Think of > how little most of us know of what our bodies must do for > us to be able to swim or ride a bicycle. We have to just > get in the water or on the bike and....try. But while > some may feel the need to know a bit of the kineasthetic > theory before jumping in, others may need to find a way > to relax before doing so. I have no problem with techniques of relaxation, but I don't think they are ever pertinent to the goal of the eradication of defilements (though in some cases they may temporarily suppress them). > What are those different yogas the Vedantists talk about > Jnana, Bhakti, a couple of others?--each leading in its > way to the promised land? I honestly have no idea, having read and heard none of this. As far as I know, though, the promised land, regardless of the religion, is a concept and has nothing at all to do with nibbaana, the third noble truth. > All best, All the best back to you, Walto, mike #84977 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma contrasted with modern science. lbidd2 Hi "individual 36", Welcome to the group. 36: "if solids are the earth element, liquids are the water element, and gases are the air element," Larry: Usually we take the 4 great elements in an experiential sense since experience is the primary way an object can be penetrated with insight. In other words, can be seen to be not me or mine. Earth element is any tangible, including water and gas. Don't know about plasma. Water element is cohesiveness. No element is experienced as a single particle. Cohesiveness holds elements together. Fire is temperature. And air is force or energy, sometimes called motion. All four great elements always arise together. My sandwich is solid, cohesive, warm, and it has a certain energy to it. The four great elements not only arise together, they also always arise with various "derived elements". The derived elements that always arise with the four great elements are: color, fragrance, flavor, and nutritive essence. Other derived elements are: sound, eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body sensitivity, masculinity and femininity, heart base (physical mind), and physical life phenomenon (there is also a mental life phenomenon). This list isn't meant to exhaust the limits of scientific theory, but it is meant to exhaust the limits of the physical experience of a scientist. Larry #84978 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidamma contrasted with modern science. TGrand458@... Hi ? Element in terms of predominant action perhaps. I think of the Four Great Elements as four primary forces. What is called the fire element I consider to be -- friction (volatile energy: -- fire, lightning, nuclear fusion, etc.). What is called water element I consider -- coalescence (inward energy: -- gravity, liquids, etc.). What is called the air or wind element I consider -- dispersion (outward energy: -- Electro-magnetic Radiation, etc.). What is called earth element I consider -- firmness (structural energy: -- relatively stable states that are usually call solids.) The "elements themselves" are not necessarily substance, but they structure what appears to be substance. No element fully stands on its own, but is a composite of all Four, and the predominant one is the one that we consider to be this or that element. With the above model, you may be able to answer all the questions you raised below. But maybe not. ;-) But it is something to spend some time contemplating that's for sure. (My views on this are extensions of Sutta and Abhidhamma material, so take it as you will.) TG In a message dated 4/22/2008 8:59:18 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, muhfugga@... writes: I have a lot of questions when it comes to contrasting Abhidhamma with science, but it would be too long of a discussion if I laid all of my questions out at once. So, my most central question: Why should we take the "four great elements" seriously, as being literally true? The idea of classical elements has existed cross-culturally and the idea can be contrasted with other lists, like in Greece. It seems to be a primitive understanding of elementary physics, whereby everything is characterized as atoms composed literally of the most visible phenomena (earth, fire, water, air). As time went on and it was clear that these visible phenomena were reducible, it seems like the Buddhist elements were interpreted more metaphorically. This is a problem, though, because an elaborate metaphorical interpretation isn't very clear. For instance, it's commonly said that there are three states-of-matter: solids, liquids, and gases. These could roughly correspond to earth, water, and air. Well, actually, there are more than three states-of-matter. There are several. One more notable one is "plasma." Artificial reactions like fluorescent lights, neon signs, and plasma ball lamps are all plasma. Lightning is a form of naturally occurring plasma and stars in space by give off plasma as well. Based on the previous list -- if solids are the earth element, liquids are the water element, and gases are the air element, would plasmas be fire? This makes sense and historically, cross-culturally, lightning has been likened to fire. But they're actually distinct. Fire is actually just a hot gas, while lightning is a hot plasma, a totally different substance. Referring to lightning as "fire," wouldn't make much sense, then, because it isn't anything like a gas. But then again, as we just clarified a moment ago, aren't gases supposed to be "air"? Or perhaps some gases are air while others are fire? If so, which ones? This elaborate metaphorical interpretation just isn't very practical or meaningful, which is why nobody uses it anymore. As a result, the classical elements were eventually refined into the periodic table of elements (in chemistry, down to the atomic level) and the standard model of fundamental particles (in physics, beneath the atomic level). Even both of these models, though, are still being developed and haven't likely accounted for all of the chemical elements and sub-atomic particles, as new elements and particles are discovered, as time goes by. The four elements are said to be irreducible, but clearly today, earth, fire, water, and air can all be reduced. Even if we consider them metaphorically to be solidity, cohesion, temperature, and motion, these too can be reduced by modern science and also, some of those aren't even physical properties or substances, but are particular processes, so it doesn't make much sense to call it an "element." #84979 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:00 pm Subject: Patthaana (31) hantun1 Patthana (31) Dear Friends, We are studying (6) Conascence Condition (sahajaata-paccaya). This Condition is divided into six types. ------------------------------ The First type: (1) cattaaro khandhaa aruupino a~n~nama~n~nam sahajaata-paccayena paccayo. The four immaterial (i.e. mental) aggregates are mutually related to one another by conascence condition. There are five aggregates: (i) ruupakkhandhaa (corporeality group, consisting of 28 ruupas); (ii) vedanaakkhandhaa (feeling group): (iii) sa~n~nakkhandhaa (perception group); (iv) sankhaarakkhandhaa (group of mental formations, consisting of 50 cetasikas other than vedanaa and sa~n~naa); and (v) vi~n~naanakkhandhaa (consciousness group, consisting of 89 cittas). But under the first type, only four immaterial aggregates are included, namely, vedanaakkhandhaa, sa~n~nakkhandhaa, sankhaarakkhandhaa, and vi~n~naanakkhandhaa. Vi~n~nanakkhandhaa or cittas cannot arise without the three other namakkhandhas, which are all cetasikas. Citta is different from cetasika, in that it does not feel or remember. While citta is the "chief" in cognizing an object, it needs the accompanying cetasikas which share the same object and which each have their own task while they assist the citta. Citta cannot arise without cetasika and cetasika cannot arise without citta, they condition one another by conascence-condition. ------------------------------ The Second type: (2) cattaaro mahaabhuutaa a~n~nama~n~nam sahajaata-paccayena paccayo. The four great primaries are mutually related to one another by conascence condition. The four great primaries or mahaabhuutas are (i) pathavi, earth element; (ii) aapo or water element, (iii) tejo or heat element; and (iv) vaayo or wind element. The four great primaries are the fundamental elements which arise together, which exist together, which support each other, and which are inseparable. But they have their own intrinsic natures and for that, they are also called dhaatus. Pathavi-dhaatu or earth element is so called because, like the earth, it serves as a support or foundation for the co-existing material phenomena. It has the characteristic of hardness (kakkha.la-lakkhanaa), the function of acting as a foundation for the other three great primary elements and also for 24 derived matter (patitthaana-rasa). Its manifestation is receiving (sampa.ticcha-paccupatthaanaa). Its proximate cause is the other three great primary elements (sesa-bhuuta-padatthaanaa). Aapo-dhaatu or water element is the material factor that makes different particles of matter cohere, thereby preventing them from being scattered about. Its characteristic is trickling or oozing (pagghara.na-lakkhanaa), its function is to intensify the co-existing states (paribruuhana-rasa), and it is manifested as the holding together or cohesion of material phenomena (sangaha-paccupatthaanaa). Its proximate cause is the other three great primary elements (sesa-bhuuta-padatthaanaa). The Abhidhamma holds that unlike the other three great primary elements, the water element cannot be physically sensed but must be known inferentially from the cohesion of observed matter. Tejo-dhaatu or heat element has the characteristic of heat (u.nhatta-lakkhanaa), its function is to mature or ripen other material phenomena (paripaacana-rasa), and it is manifested as a continuous supply of softness (mudubhaavaanuppadaana-paccupatthaana). Both heat and cold are modes in which this element is experienced. Its proximate cause is the other three great primary elements (sesa-bhuuta-padatthaanaa). Vaayo-dhaatu or wind element is the principle of motion and pressure. Its characteristic is distension (vitthambhana-lakkhanaa), its function is to cause motion in the other material phenomena (udiira.na-rasa), and it is manifested as conveyance to other places (abhiniihaara-paccupatthaanaa). Its proximate cause is the other three great primary elements (sesa-bhuuta-padatthaanaa). It is experienced as tangible pressure. Taken together, the four great primary elements are founded upon the earth element, held together by the water element, maintained by the heat element, and distended by the air element. The heat element plays an important role in our lives. It is not only one of the four great primary elements, but also it is one of the four causes of matter (ruupa) in our body, as ‘utu.’ Even when we die, the matter formed by utu or temperature is the last to disintegrate. When we die, the ruupas formed by kamma, citta and aahaara die with cuti citta, but the ruupas formed by utu remain for some time until the body becomes decomposed and disintegrated. Therefore, in Burma, when we invite people to come to the deceased house we invite them to come and “reflectâ€? on the remaining utuja-ruupa of the deceased person. The four great primary elements are also very important in that they must be well-balanced for our health. In Burmese traditional medicine, the traditional practitioner diagnoses and treats the patients after assessing which great primary element is deficient or in excess. When they are well balanced they are our great benefactors. When they are not well-balanced they become our deadly enemies. They are also like four very dangerous vipers. In SN 35.238, the Commentary compares the four great primary elements with the four families of vipers: (i) the wooden-mouthed (katthamukha), whose bite causes the victim’s entire body to stiffen like dry wood; (ii) the putrid-mouthed (puutimukha), whose bite makes the victim’s body decay and ooze like a decaying fruit; (iii) the fiery-mouthed (aggimukha), whose bite causes its victim’s body to burn up and scatter like ashes or chaff; and (iv) the dagger-mouthed (satthamukha), whose bite causes the victim’s body to break apart like a pole struck by lightning. Other types to be continued. metta, Han #84980 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidamma contrasted with modern science. sarahprocter... Dear Friend, Welcome to DSG! --- individual36 wrote: > I have a lot of questions when it comes to contrasting Abhidhamma with > science, but it would be too long of a discussion if I laid all of my > questions out at once. .... S: In the meantime, please take a look in 'Useful Posts' in the files section of DSG under 'Science & Dhamma' and see if you find anything of interest and relevance to your questions. ... > > So, my most central question: > > Why should we take the "four great elements" seriously, as being > literally true? .... S: I haven't read the other replies yet, so I'll keep this short. Take the first element, pathavi dhatu (earth/solidity), manifesting as hardness/softness. When you touch the computer, what is experienced? Isn't hardness experienced? Can it not be proved to be 'literally true'? What about when you touch a tissue, isn't softness (also pathavi dhatu) experienced? I'll look forward to reading your further exchanges. Why not introduce yourself a little, telling us where you live perhaps. Metta, Sarah p.s. Also, any newcomers, please sign off with your (preferably real) name and also make it clear whom you are addressing, even if it's 'all' or 'anyone'. ============ #84981 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:13 am Subject: Metta, Ch 2, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha did not in any way retort angry words. We who still have defilements may also keep silent when we are reviled, but with what kind of cittas do we keep silent? We should consider our cittas at such moments. There are different types of cittas for the Buddha when he keeps silent, and also for the arahat, (the perfected one who has attained the fourth stage of enlightenment), for the anågåmí (who has attained the third stage), for the sakadågåmí (who has attained the second stage), for the sotåpanna (who has attained the first stage) and for the ordinary person; in each case there are different types of cittas at such moments. It all depends on the degree of wisdom. When someone has not yet eradicated dosa, he may keep silent and not show anger outwardly, through gestures or speech, but can we know what types of cittas he has? When satipatthåna does not arise we do not know whether we have at a particular moment kusala citta or akusala citta, we do not know whether we have true mettå. When a person who still has defilements notices that someone else keeps silent, he interprets this in accordance with his own accumulations. However, the reason of someone else’s silence may be different from what he thinks. When we carefully consider the meaning of the sutta which was just quoted, we will see its benefit. But this also depends on the extent we practise in accordance with the Dhamma. When we speak coarse words, are we the winner or the loser? Perhaps we think that we are the winner when we can speak such words to the other person, but in fact, we are the loser. If we really want to be the winner we should conquer our defilements. The person who is not angry and does not retaliate upon an angry person has won a victory which is hard to win. When someone else is angry, we should not join him in his anger, we should not be angry with him and speak harshly to him. If we repay him in kind, we join him in his anger, we keep company with him, we keep company with akusala dhamma. Mental development is difficult, it is conditioned by listening to the teachings which explain the benefit of kusala dhammas. There must also be energy and courage in order to develop kusala dhammas. The development of all kinds of kusala is above all conditioned by satipatthåna, the development of right understanding of realities. Satipatthåna conditions the arising of sati, mindfulness, which is non-forgetful of kusala. There are different levels of sati: there is sati with generosity, with síla (morality, the abstaining from ill deeds), with the development of calm and with the development of right understanding of realities. The development of satipatthåna can be the condition that the different levels of sati arise more often. It conditions sati to consider the disadvantage of akusala which appears, and to what extent its disadvantage is realized depends on the stage of the development of paññå. When there is sati it is paññå which can see akusala dhamma as it is. When paññå sees akusala as akusala there are conditions for the arising of kusala instead of akusala. ****** Nina. #84982 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Hi, Mike. Some great stuff in there. Thanks. W: > > In a tale about how mastery of passion and > > ill-will through Dhamma is more important than scholarly > > study of texts, we see that this greater virtue was > > demonstrated in of all things...the answers to a pop > > quiz! M: > So, do you take arahantship to mean mastery of passion and > ill-will? W: I have no idea. I used those words because they were included in the description of one of the aspirants in Ganesh's version of the story. > > What verbal questions (rather than behavioral tests), one > > wonders, could The Buddha have asked the two students so > > that the master of his emotions would far exceed the > > scholar in demonstrating knowledge of Dhamma? > > The teachings contain descriptions of states achieved by the > arahant as well as the means to achieve them. Since, in > this > story, the Buddha is trying to save the younger brother from > calamitous kamma, he asks questions that, though pertinent > to the teachings, are known by the arahant (who knows both > 'knowledge that' and 'knowledge how' from personal > experience) despite his ignorance of (some of) the > teachings, as I see it. I'll buy that. Sounds reasonable. Do you think one could obtain arahantship with little or no knowledge of the texts? Could one (as it says in the story) master ill-will, passion, and ignorance without that sort of study? W: > > As you say, I have said that tranquility is nice. You > > point out that it's not and ought not to be considered > > the be-all and end-all of religious practice. I agree. > > Ganesh's story shows that careful study of texts isn't > > really where it's at either. But if both can be helpful > > in developing metta, why not bless them both? M: > According to the texts, mettaa, in the sense of adosa, is > also a universal beautiful mental factor that can arise with > or without understanding. It is not (as I see it) the goal > any more than tranquility is, for the same reasons I > mentioned earlier. W: Is it really not a goal? That surprises me. I wouldn't have thought that loving kindness should be seen as a means to something else. M: > I have no problem with techniques of relaxation, but I don't > think they are ever pertinent to the goal of the eradication > of defilements (though in some cases they may temporarily > suppress them). W: Why couldn't they be useful to prepare our minds--as, say, when someone insults us (or a loved one dies), we must compose ourselves before we can really do or think anything else? > > What are those different yogas the Vedantists talk about > > Jnana, Bhakti, a couple of others?--each leading in its > > way to the promised land? M: > I honestly have no idea, having read and heard none of this. W: This is from wiki: The Bhagavad Gita ('Song of the Lord'), uses the term yoga extensively in a variety of senses. Of many possible meanings given to the term in the Gita, most emphasis is given to these three:[29] Karma yoga: The yoga of action Bhakti yoga: The yoga of devotion[28] Jnana yoga: The yoga of knowledge M: > As far as I know, though, the promised land, regardless of > the religion, is a concept and has nothing at all to do with > nibbaana, the third noble truth. W: Perhaps I used the wrong words. I confess, though, that I don't know what you mean by 'concept' here. I suppose that "promised land" is a metaphor while the third noble truth is not. Is that what you mean? Again, thanks for your helpful comments. Best, Walto #84983 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:00 am Subject: Guardians of the world - shame and moral dread (was Re: At the Foundation) philofillet Hi Scott > 'Their proximate cause is respect for self and respect for others, > respectively. These two states are called by the Buddha the guardians > of the world because they protect the world from fallng into > widespread immorality.' > > ...But you can see where I get confused. "Respect for self" doesn't, > surely, mean respect for atta, but....what does it mean?" > > Scott: Atthasaalinii (p.84) states: "Immediate occasion > (pada.t.thaana.m) means proximate cause." In the case of the pair > hiri and ottappa, wouldn't this proximate cause, or the footing for > the arising of this inseparable pair of mental factors, refer to > thoughts about self and others - i.e., concepts? Ph: OK, yes, that's what I think too. That's what I'm getting at....I think. The importance of people (concepts) as object of hiri and otappa. And if the object of hiri and otappa is "people", the subject must be people too. I mean if there is concern about respect for the other, there must be a self at work, it seems...for stories about people to be at work, there must be a person telling the stories, a self creating the narratives, spinning the concepts. I just have trouble seeing hiri and otappa in paramattha terms. > > These cetasikas arise together with kusala citta. I don't think that > the conventional notions of shame and guilt apply. Ph: Well, it's not shame and guilt, it's shame and moral dread. I'm sure you know the simile that is used to get them across. One end of the stick being smeared with excrement (thus the shame) the other being red hot. (the moral dread) Again, very conventional feeling imagery at work here. Dosa is different > than hiri and ottappa. I'd suggest that thoughts about a self who is > ashamed about this or that action, and the accompanying subjective > unhappiness, are not the same as the two mental factors of hiri and > ottappa arising in the moment with kusala citta. I think these mental > factors are part of the kusala moment, contributing to and supporting > its 'kusala nature'. Ph: Yes, I think you're right. Everything happens so quickly. But again, the imagery used in Vism. (see above) How can there not be dosa when sh*t and burning flesh is involved! So this dosa must in some way be helpful if hiri and otappa are to be understood as taught in Vism. Just thinking out loud, Scott. I'm neither disagreeing or agreeing with you. It's nice - we're just working through it together. I guess that's what you people do all the time. I don't know because I am always caught up in controversy. Metta, Phil #84984 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:15 am Subject: [dsg] Guardians of the world - shame and moral dread (was Re: At the Foundation) philofillet Hi Nina > N: Being lazy, obsessed by baseball, well we all have our hobbies. > Nevertheless, if there is no awareness of present realities, there > are no shame and fear in the kusala sense. Sorry, I have to disagree here. I can be aware of a situation, a concept, a story. For example, today I went to have a coffee with a woman I am practicing my French with. She's attractive and I have a bit of a crush on her and I sense the feeling is mutual. I told Naomi about this and she agreed to let me go, but I was aware that if I "played my cards right" I could set up an extra-marital affair. All the time there is consideration of what the Buddha warns us happens to people who commit unwholesome deeds. This was just thinking about more concepts. And this sort of reflection on the Buddah's teaching (in conceptual form) conditioned an ongoing sense of moral dread before, during and after the coffee chat. (Even while we had a pleasant time) You will say, perhaps, that there was "awareness of present realities" going on but I will say no, it was just guidance by concepts. ("Do you want to be reborn in the animal realm? Is a little bit of sexual pleasure or even a lot of it suitable compensation for losing the rare opportunity to be born in the human realm" - that sort of thing.) And if it isn't kusala that I was able to deal with the situation in a wholesome way that makes it less likely for myself, Naomi, the other woman or the other woman's husband and so on and so on to be harmed, well, if that isn't kusala, so be it. It's kusala as far as I'm concerned. Present realities? Lust? The sense of lust? Yes, very family with that. I call it being randy or horny. Is it a present reality? I guess so, lots and lots and lots and lots of them all strung together? Present realities rise and fall away in a wink of an eye. I don't think I have awareness of them. Just a lot of thinking. And praise thinking when it is done in the light of the Buddha's teaching! Respect for self: an > inward proximate cause. No respect for these khandhas here we call > myself. We have learnt about the Dhamma, we know in general what is > kusala and what akusala, but we do not live up tp standards. > The word self is used in a figurative way. Ph: "Used in a figurative way" - I don't get this. It is used and I think it cannot be dismissed so easily just by saying it is "figurative." What does "figurative" mean? Obviously I am not proposing some sort of atta theory but it does seem to me that hiri and otappa must make use of the clinging to self that we all have. But as I just said to Scott, I am just thinking out loud here and am neither agreeing or disagreeing on this hiri and otappa thing. Metta, Phil #84985 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:21 am Subject: [dsg] Guardians of the world - shame and moral dread (was Re: At the Foundation) philofillet Hi Larry > "Their proximate cause > is respect for self and respect for others, respectively. These two > states are called by the Buddha the guardians of the world because they > protect the world from falling into widespread immorality." > > Maybe they are the guardians of the world because they can arise even > without insight. If awareness of present realities was necessary, I > don't think the world could participate. A sense of morality is common > to all even though we don't always live according to the best > principles. Ph: Yes, I think this is kind of what I'm getting at. An awareness of present realities cannot be said to be necessary for hiri and otappa to arise, I don't think. I think the awareness of present realities is fostered within a mind (if you will) that is protected in very conventional ways (at first, necessarily) by such factors as shame and moral dread and heedfulness.... I have been slacking on my Abhidhamma studies, but if I recall there are kusala citta accompanied by panna, and unaccompanied by panna. I guess hiri and otappa needn't be only "in" those cittas that are accompanied by panna? Metta, Phil Metta,, Phil #84986 From: "connie" Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:19 am Subject: Perfections Corner (131) nichiconn Dear Friends, This is the beginning of Chapter 2 - The Perfection of Morality The Commentary to "The Basket of Conduct" defines the perfection of morality as follows: "Virtue (siila) has the characteristic of composing (siilana, observing); coordinating (samaadhaana) and establishing (pati.t.thana) are also mentioned as its characteristic. Its function is to dispel moral depravity, or its function is blameless conduct; its manifestation is moral purity; shame and moral dread are its proximate cause." The transgression of morality, siila, such as killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, is motivated by akusala: by attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa), and ignorance (moha). When someone commits evil deeds he lacks mettaa, loving-kindness towards others. All akusala kammas are conditioned by clinging to visible object, sound, smell, flavour, tangible object and the wrong view that there is self, being or person. The streamwinner who has realized the four noble Truths and attained the first stage of enlightenment, has eradicated the defilements in accordance with that stage of enlightenment. He observes the five precepts perfectly, he cannot transgress them any more. If one is not a streamwinner which precepts can one observe? Even before we are a streamwinner, we should not transgress the precepts. The coarse defilements can be subdued and worn away until pa~n~naa will be developed to the degree of a perfection and is able to realize the four noble Truths. The perfection of siila is an excellent quality, a supporting condition for reaching the further shore, namely the eradication of defilements. We read about Akitti's siila in the Commentary to the "Basket of conduct" *1: "When the Buddha was the ascetic Akitti, he dwelt in a Kaara wood with strength and energy to fulfil the ascetic practices (tapa), that is, the perfection of siila. Siila is indeed called asceticism, because it burns the impurity of akusala. Even so the perfection of renunciation and the perfection of energy are called asceticism (tapa), because they burn by their strength the impurity of clinging and laziness." *1 See the Akitti Jaataka, no. 480. .. to be continued, connie #84987 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. nilovg Dear Walto, Op 23-apr-2008, om 13:40 heeft Walter Horn het volgende geschreven: > Mike: I have no problem with techniques of relaxation, but I don't > > think they are ever pertinent to the goal of the eradication > > of defilements (though in some cases they may temporarily > > suppress them). > > W: Why couldn't they be useful to prepare our minds--as, say, when > someone insults us (or a loved one dies), we must compose ourselves > before we can really do or think anything else? ------- N: When an accident happens (it can easily happen) or a loved one suddenly dies, there is no time for preparation. It is best to learn about the truth of all phenomena of our life now: they arise and fall away and that is why they are dukkha. Let us have more understanding of dukkha now, that is all that can be done. What arises must fall away and this is the truth. Nobody likes to lose dear ones, but it has to happen. Whoever is born has to die. We have to face the truth now. No special preparation is possible. Nina. #84988 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (31) nilovg Dear Han, Op 23-apr-2008, om 8:00 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Therefore, in Burma, when we invite people to come to the deceased > house we invite them to come and “reflect” on the remaining utuja- > ruupa of the deceased person. ------ N: I find this a very good custom and reminder. -------- > > H: The four great primary elements are also very important in that > they must be well-balanced for our health. In Burmese traditional > medicine, the traditional practitioner diagnoses and treats the > patients after assessing which great primary element is deficient > or in excess. When they are well balanced they are our great > benefactors. When they are not well-balanced they become our deadly > enemies. ------- N: I find this interesting and reasonable. I would like to add: all the time three of the four Great elements appear as tangible object: earth as hardness or softness, heat as heat or cold, wind as motion or pressure. They are not 'in the book', they are realities appearing now and we can learn that they are mere dhammas. -------- > > H: They are also like four very dangerous vipers. In SN 35.238, the > Commentary compares the four great primary elements with the four > families of vipers: (i) the wooden-mouthed (katthamukha), whose > bite causes the victim’s entire body to stiffen like dry wood; (ii) > the putrid-mouthed (puutimukha), whose bite makes the victim’s body > decay and ooze like a decaying fruit; (iii) the fiery-mouthed > (aggimukha), whose bite causes its victim’s body to burn up and > scatter like ashes or chaff; and (iv) the dagger-mouthed > (satthamukha), whose bite causes the victim’s body to break apart > like a pole struck by lightning. ---- N: I like this part about the vipers. It shows the disadvanges and danfers of the four Great Elements to which we cling. Just one more point: the Earth Element is the foundation for the derived ruppas that accompany them. I would add: that accompany it, not all of the derived rupas accompany it at each moment. Nina. #84989 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 251, 252 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 23-apr-2008, om 4:32 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina: "As we read in the text of the Visuddhimagga, 'kamma-process > becoming in brief is both volition and the states of covetousness, > etc., > associated with the volition', thus, the cetasikas that accompany > volition, but, according to the Tiika, strictly speaking volition, > cetanaa, is kamma. > > Larry: I can see very well how insight leads to the abandonment of > desire, but I find it difficult to see how insight could lead to the > destruction of volition. ------- Insight that has been developed up to the stage of arahatship leads to the destruction of kamma, that is: there are no more conditions to perform kamma. The arahat has no more rebirth. ------- > L: "Volition" seems to mean "action" or "will". > Perhaps "will" would be more appropriate to kamma and "action" > would be > more appropriate to the cetana of an arahant. How do you see it? ------ N: Volition is kamma or action. The literal meaning of kamma is action, karoti means: to do. Kusala cetanaa or akusala cetanaa motivates deeds that bring results. But the arahat has no kusala or akusala cittas. ------- > > L: I wonder if there is a connection between the end of kammic > volition and > the realization of "no control". ------ N: We can understand now a little of beyond control. The sotaapanna has eradicated wrong view, and this includes the view of self who controls. The arahat has eradicated all defilements, all desire. Nina. #84990 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandha Yamaka - Study Report 23 nilovg Dear Chew, Op 22-apr-2008, om 17:17 heeft Chew het volgende geschreven: > To listen to what my teacher said: > at Youtube ------- N: Difficult to listen, the sound was not clear enough. I am thinking about it why it is that di.t.thi is especially mentioned in connection with sa~n~naa. Is it because sa~n~naa is so powerful in our thinking? We remember things in the wrong way. Could you ask your teacher? I think you must have a good Abhidhamma teacher. Decads ago I had contacts with the Buddhis University in Penang. How is it doing now? I wrote letters to the students. Here is one sample if you like to read it: < http://www.abhidhamma.org/ lett2.html > Nina. #84991 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:18 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (31) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your comments. In particular, I have noted the following: Nina: I would like to add: all the time three of the four Great elements appear as tangible object: earth as hardness or softness, heat as heat or cold, wind as motion or pressure. They are not 'in the book', they are realities appearing now and we can learn that they are mere hammas. -------- Nina: I like this part about the vipers. It shows the disadvantages and dangers of the four Great Elements to which we cling. Just one more point: the Earth Element is the foundation for the derived rupas that accompany them. I would add: that accompany it, not all of the derived rupas accompany it at each moment. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #84992 From: "William\\Alex" Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma contrasted with modern science. individual36 We can experience plasma, though. An electric shock is not the same thing as being burned nor is it merely "energy." You mentioned the air element as being force or energy, sometimes called motion. Even with that definition itself, it's clear that we can reduce the air element: force, energy, motion. So, it's not an actual element, an atomic aspect of experience, but rather it's broadly metaphorically understood as being the "physical properties which are like air." In this regard, an electric shock could be thought of as the air element (energy) combined with the fire element (heat). That is, "hot energy." However, if this is the definition, then what distinguishes fire from electricity? In our experience, the feeling of an electric shock is very different from the feel of fire. Also, the appearance of plasma is very different from fire (i.e. lightning versus a pillar of fire, a plasma ball lamp versus a ball of fire). Aside from the six elements, the most fundamental problem I have with Abhidhamma, here is a different example: According to Abhidhamma, there are six senses. These are divided into the five sense-organs (pasa-da ru-pas): eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body. The material base for consciousness (citta, literally "mind" or "heart") is called the hadaya vatthu or hadaya ru-pa (the "material form of the heart-basis"). Now, from what I've read, the hadaya vatthu is equated with the heart organ. In ancient India, they believed that consciousness is housed in the chest or the center of the abdomen rather than in the brain, hence the reason why citta means both "heart" and "mind." (Similarly, I have heard that various forms of folk medicine have considered the gall bladder to be the home of courage or consciousness, hence the origin of the phrase, "You have a lot of gall.") Hadaya vatthu is said to be the physical base responsible for consciousness, but also the physical basis for blood to be pumped throughout the body. These, then, are the six material foundations for consciousness and they are all rooted in the four great elements. In terms of the mental aspects of the senses, they are described as the six sense-bases (ayatanas), with six of them being internal (the sense-organs -- not separate from the rupa mentioned above) and the other six being external (the actual objects of cognition). Again, these six sense-bases correspond to sight, sound, taste, smell, touch (literally "body-sense"), and thought. Now, here is another problem with this: In our own experience, "touch," or "body-sense" is more varied than merely "touch." Scientists divide the senses according to the types of neuro-receptors which receive sense impressions. This relates to our experiences because it is how we feel the world. The feeling of distinction is rooted in the fact that there is a different neuro-receptor. If the neuro-receptors were altered or removed, the feeling would cease to exist in the same way. The various types of bodily feeling identified by science: -Thermoception (temperature) -Nociception (pain and pleasure) -Equilibrioception (balance, that is, your center of gravity) -Proprioception (sense of bodily position, that is, the sense of where your limbs are) -Kinesthesia (sense of bodily movement) If you examine these, they are all very distinct, just as distinct as hearing and taste. Even if the distinct is made by the "overall organs," balance is actually determined by bones in the inner-ear, yet Abhidhamma does not consider "balance," to be rooted in the ear sense-base. Also, it classifies vedana (pain and pleasure) as being a "mental factor," though in reality and in experience, the feeling of pain and pleasure is not distinct from the other senses. Also, the sense-bases and sense-objects are all related to one another. But this is not a transcendental relationship. In certain animals (i.e. bats or dolphins), they use their hearing in order to see (sonar). Humans can experience this same phenomenon in the form of "synesthesia," if they are either unfortunate enough to be born with the condition or if they take psychadelic drugs, like LSD. In certain animals, there are also different senses not accounted for in Abhidhamma, like sensation of magnetic fields and special forms of vision, like infrared, ultraviolet, and polarized light. LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi "individual 36", > > Welcome to the group. > > 36: "if solids are the earth element, liquids are the water element, and > gases are the air element," > > Larry: Usually we take the 4 great elements in an experiential sense > since experience is the primary way an object can be penetrated with > insight. In other words, can be seen to be not me or mine. Earth element > is any tangible, including water and gas. Don't know about plasma. Water > element is cohesiveness. No element is experienced as a single particle. > Cohesiveness holds elements together. Fire is temperature. And air is > force or energy, sometimes called motion. All four great elements always > arise together. My sandwich is solid, cohesive, warm, and it has a > certain energy to it. The four great elements not only arise together, > they also always arise with various "derived elements". The derived > elements that always arise with the four great elements are: color, > fragrance, flavor, and nutritive essence. Other derived elements are: > sound, eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body sensitivity, masculinity and > femininity, heart base (physical mind), and physical life phenomenon > (there is also a mental life phenomenon). This list isn't meant to > exhaust the limits of scientific theory, but it is meant to exhaust the > limits of the physical experience of a scientist. > > Larry > > #84993 From: "William\\Alex" Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:38 am Subject: An introduction. individual36 Someone asked me to introduce myself. I am 23-years-old. I could consider myself a Buddhist, but recently it has occurred to me that the notion of a "Buddhist," in terms of Abhidhamma is a "stream-enterer," which is not a very easy thing to attain. Merely calling yourself Buddhist, being seen that way, going to a Sangha, meditating, and so on, does not make you a follower of the Buddha. But rather, a stream enterer -- the beginning of dharma practice -- is a person who has destroyed the fetters of the illusion of self and doubt, developing notself (anatta) and confidence (saddha). In this regard, I'm not really a Buddhist, because I'm still attached to the notion of self and I still have doubt. In terms of what I believe, conventionally I could consider myself either Zen or Theravada and appreciate a "one-vehicle" approach. I do not see these two schools as being distinct at all, but rather, both represent true dhamma (reflected by the Sutta Pitaka in Theravada and the Agamas in Mahayana) and thus are the same. The distinction "Hinayana," does not seem to apply to Theravada today and I do not know if it ever did (it doesn't really matter). To be more specific, I believe in: -Direct analysis of experience, in the present moment - This is called "Vibhajjavada" in Theravada. -Meditation as a primary means of gaining insight - In Soto Zen, there is shikantaza, "just sitting" meditation, which is basically a combination of calming meditation (samatha) and insight meditation (vipassana). In Rinzai Zen, there is koan meditation, which is for insight, and breath meditation, which is for calming. -Seeking supreme enlightenment - In Mahayana, there is the distinction between the bodhisattva who follows Mahayana and the arhat who follows Hinayana. Both transcend suffering when they achieve enlightenment, but the bodhisattva cultivates bodhicitta and thus receives supreme enlightenment. Aside from the definitions of "bodhisattva," and "arhat," and the sectarian terms "Mahayana," and "Hinayana," the notion of bodhicitta (wanting all sentient beings to be enlightened) seems to exist in Theravada as well. It is totally false to say that Theravada is selfish, Theravada Buddhists look towards Gautama Buddha, a supreme buddha ("samma-sambodhi"), as a role-model, not the private Buddha ("paccekabuddha"). So in this regard, Theravada Buddhists are also bodhisattvas and they are not separate from the Mahayana. Theravada is also Mahayana and there is no such thing as a "Hinayana" Buddhist today. -Iconoclasm - Lack of a regard for inherent authority -- in books, teachers, and so on (see the Kalama sutta), but relying solely on a sincere, diligent, dispassionate, selfless investigation of the truth. So, there are some superficial differences between Theravada and Zen. Theravada values Abhidhamma greatly, while Zen couldn't care less. Instead, Zen Buddhists use Taoist philosophical terms. Also, some Theravada Buddhists are very sectarian and dogmatic about adhering to the literal words of the Tipitaka. Aside from this, they're not very different. ' When it comes to the debate over materialism and immaterialism (i.e., the question of literal or metaphorical rebirth), generally such debates aren't too important and I accept a middle way between materialism and immaterialism. From what I have read of Abhidhamma so far, both materialism and immaterialism are negated. Attachment to the notion of "six realms of existence," is not different from attachment to the notion of, "six realms of existence, which manifest as consciousness." Being detached from both, I see them both as true, from certain points-of-view. William\Alex (You can call me either one) sarah abbott wrote: > > I'll look forward to reading your further exchanges. Why not introduce > yourself a little, telling us where you live perhaps. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s. Also, any newcomers, please sign off with your (preferably real) name > and also make it clear whom you are addressing, even if it's 'all' or > 'anyone'. > ============ > > #84994 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:30 pm Subject: A question for Han about the way Dhamma is taught to householders in Asia philofillet Hi Han I hope your wife is recovering nicely from that scare, and I hope your various aches and pains are also not too bad. Han, some months ago you posted something that made an impression on me. I think it was a kind of a summing up of your attitude towards Dhamma practice, and it was very practical and sensible. You talked about doing some mindfulness of breathing meditation every day, but didn't give the impression that your were unrealistic in your expectations towards it. (We are householders, facing considerable impediments to serious meditation, but meditation is still valuable. That's the impression I got, which I agree with.) And then the main point. You said something about hoping that what you have done in this lifetime will help to provide a more favourable destination in the next lifetime. You know that you cannot control that, but you have a certain confidence that you have done your best. I feel that this is the kind of message that comes through again and again especially in Anguttara Nikaya, that for busy householders behaving in a moral way, developing as much understanding as one and then facing death (if one is so fortunate as to be able to face it!) with a certain degree of confidence that one has led a sensible, wholesome life - I feel this is what the Buddha provides as an admonition to householders. Did I get you right? Would you agree with me? Perhaps since this was quite a few months ago you see things differently now. And would you say that in Myanmar and in other Asian countries this is the way the Dhamma is taught to householders? Thanks for any feedback Phil #84995 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Guardians of the world - shame and moral dread (was Re: At the Foundation) lbidd2 Hi Phil, One might feel compelled to take a few liberties with the conventional understanding of hiri and ottappa insofar as shame and moral dread both arise with unpleasant feeling but hiri and ottappa are kusala cetasikas. Kusala cetasikas never arise with unpleasant feeling. To remedy that difficulty we might think of hiri and ottappa as self respect and respect for others. These don't seem to arise with unpleasant feeling and might still be considered as "guardians of the world". Larry #84996 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An introduction. lbidd2 Hi William/Alex, You seem to have a detailed understanding of abhidhamma already. What texts have you studied? We use "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" and the "Path of Purification" as primary texts. Also Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" is very useful, as well as the Nikayas of course. One point I thought I should make regarding the experience of materiality, it is said that any materiality arises with a minimum of 8 elements (4 great elements plus color, smell, taste, and nutritive essence), but only one of these elements is experienced at a time. So you might touch a flame and feel heat one moment, the texture of the flame another moment, the motion of the flame another moment, and in another moment understand the cohesive element (water element) of that flame. Or you might instead of touching the flame you might smell it, see it, possibly taste it, or conceivably derive some nutritive essence from it if you ate it. In insight, whatever is experienced is clearly experienced and understood as simply whatever it is. That's pretty much the essence of insight. What someone _might_ experience is a matter of imagination. So the insight there would be "aha! imagination". All these emails we read and write back and forth are imagination, but there are also the passions, feelings, and physical sensations of each reader and writer. And once in a while there might even be a little bit of insight. But surprisingly, not very often. Oh, I wanted to ask where are you from? I'm from Colorado. Active members here are writing from the US, Canada, Netherlands, Hong Kong, Australia, Japan, and Thailand. Larry #84997 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:46 pm Subject: etting ready for death ( was Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2.) philofillet Hi Nina Sorry to be disagreeing with you so often these days, but I know you don't mind. > Whoever is born has to die. We have to face the truth > now. No special preparation is possible. Ph: So how do we face the truth now? By intellectually understanding that all dhammas are dukkha because they are anicca (or anicca and anatta) Ok. I am fine with this sort of intellectual understanding. But in Anguttara Nikaya the Buddha offers us many more conventional approaches. In one sutta we are told (all of us, whether ordained or laypeople, whether men or women, that is how he puts it) to reflect often on the fact that we will grow old, grow sick, die, and be separated from all we love. I know you are fond of a commentary that says that this sutta is referring to individual dhammas growing old, growing sick and dying, and if that is the interpretation that does it for you, fine. But really, honestly, do individual dhammas "grow old, grow sick and die, and are they "separated from those they love?" I really find that hard to understand. I think that commentary adds an interesting angle to the sutta, but its interpretation is not the interpretation intended by the Buddha, surely, not if it denies that there should be reflection on people (including ourselves, and yes, I know that people don't exist in reality) growing old, sick and dying. In another sutta, the Buddha tells the story of a man arriving at the door of Hell, I think, and the God of Hell (Yama?) or someone like that asks him if he failed to see the messengers of old people, sick people and dead people? Didn't you ever see a sick, old, or dying person, "my good man." Yes, the man says, I did. So why didn't you reflect on your shared fate and change your evil ways. Well, the man doesn't get a chance to answer. He is dragged off to the torments of Hell. Now if someone who isn't comfortable with religious sounding stuff in Buddhism doesn't like this, too bad - nobody can change the Buddha's teaching! In another sutta, two elderly Brahmins approach the Buddha and confess their fear that they have failed to do good deeds that would give them a refuge in the face of death, and the Buddha agrees, yes gentlemen, you have failed to do so. There are many admonitions and encouragements from the Buddha to ready ourselves for the day we will die, and for the day that our loved ones will die. I see the topic here is metta. I personally think intentionally practicing metta, while it is not metta as deep meditation object, is still helpful for conditioning a patient, non- harmful approach to life, which means we are doing fewer deeds that we will regret when facing death, something like that. Just some thoughts, Nina. I know already in what ways you will disagree, and that's fine. :) Metta, Phil #84998 From: han tun Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:04 am Subject: Re: A question for Han about the way Dhamma is taught to householders in Asia hantun1 Dear Phil, Phil wrote: Han, some months ago you posted something that made an impression on me. I think it was a kind of a summing up of your attitude towards Dhamma practice, and it was very practical and sensible. You talked about doing some mindfulness of breathing meditation every day, but didn't give the impression that your were unrealistic in your expectations towards it. (We are householders, facing considerable impediments to serious meditation, but meditation is still valuable. That's the impression I got, which I agree with.) And then the main point. You said something about hoping that what you have done in this lifetime will help to provide a more favourable destination in the next lifetime. You know that you cannot control that, but you have a certain confidence that you have done your best. I feel that this is the kind of message that comes through again and again especially in Anguttara Nikaya, that for busy householders behaving in a moral way, developing as much understanding as one and then facing death (if one is so fortunate as to be able to face it!) with a certain degree of confidence that one has led a sensible, wholesome life - I feel this is what the Buddha provides as an admonition to householders. Did I get you right? Would you agree with me? Perhaps since this was quite a few months ago you see things differently now. And would you say that in Myanmar and in other Asian countries this is the way the Dhamma is taught to householders? Thanks for any feedback ==================== Han: There are two points: (1) the way Dhamma is taught to householders in Asia (2) what I am doing. ---------- Han: (1) My experience is limited to the teachings by the Sayadaws in Burma only, and I am not able to talk about teachings in other Asian countries. Sayadaws in Burma teach the householders the same teachings taught by the Buddha to the householders as well as the monks. But Sayadaws use less Pali words and more day to day language so that the lay persons can understand. And they emphasize on those activities that the householders can manage easily. For example, there is a play of Burmese word “nay-zin”. If one pronounces with one tone it means “daily”. When it is pronounced with another tone, it means “while” – while one is doing this or that. One Sayadaw said that if a person is mindful of the three characteristics of conditioned things while he is undertaking various worldly activities, as much as he can throughout the day, it is better than meditating for one hour daily and living heedlessly the rest of the day. But another Sayadaw urges lay persons to follow the Buddha’s teachings in the same way the monks are following. He said when the Buddha addresses the audience as “bhikkhus” [in the suttas] the Buddha is not addressing only the monks. Here, Sayadaw said bhikkhu means not only the monks but it includes everybody who is afraid of samsara and who wants to escape from it. To support the Sayadaw’s point of view, please refer to Vism. I.7: “He sees fear (bhayam ikkhati) in the round of rebirths, thus he is a bhikkhu.” ========== (2) As regards what I am doing, my guiding principle is Dhammapada verse 183: Not to do evil, to cultivate merit, to purify one’s mind – this is the Teaching of the Buddhas. I practice breathing meditation and buddhaanussati with prayer beads (on-cushion), and to be mindful of the three characteristics of naama and ruupas as much as I can throughout the day (off-cushion). Among the three characteristics anicca is the most preferred one. At one time I was afraid of unhappy rebirth. That was the time I first read about kamma. On page 203 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, kamma by order of ripening is described. With respect to the order in which the effect of kamma takes place, there are four kinds of kamma, namely, weighty kamma (garuka kamma), death-proximate kamma (aasanna kamma), habitual kamma (aacinna kamma), and reserve kamma (katattaa kamma). Of the four, aasanna kamma is the one which will determine either happy rebirth or unhappy rebirth. At that time I even raised the question: if one cultivates good aacinna or habitual kamma can it not overrule a bad aasanna kamma at the time of death? But now, I do not think about these kamma any more. I do not have any expectations. Whatever will be, will be. I will do my very best to avoid evil and to cultivate merit, and I will not worry about the rebirth which I have no control. I have no expectations any more now. I will do my best and leave the results to my kamma. Well, Phil, if I may borrow your own words, the above is a descriptive account of what I am doing, but it is by no means a prescriptive account:>)) Respectfully, Han #84999 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply: S: "...If the citta is rooted in panna, it means panna is arising with it. However, I think the point I was stressing before is that these are still vipaka cittas, *result* cittas, so it's not the same as the panna arising with kusala cittas which accumulates and conditions kusala kamma." Scott: These would occur during the javana sequence? S: "How are we doing?" Scott: Good, Sarah. I'm glad to clarify this stuff. To recap: even though there might be no root at rebirth, pa~n~naa can still be developed in that particular existence, although doesn't have the strength to allow jhaana or the path to arise. Sincerely, Scott.