#86200 From: "Alex" Date: Sun May 25, 2008 7:04 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Overview of KS 1: Background truth_aerator Dear RobertK, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Dear Jon > I have seen several references to Abhidhamma in say Vinaya for > example. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17027 > Robert > 1) Do any of them have Buddha saying "Study Abhidhamma Pitaka!" to reach Ariya hood? 2) Considering that there is another Abhidhamma ascribed to Maha Moggallana and Sariputta - how do we know which Abhidhamma was taught? 3) Taken in context, what did the word Abhidhamma mean back then? Did AbhiVinaya mean "AbhiVinaya Pitaka",? ... to be continued ... Best Wishes, Alex #86201 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 25, 2008 7:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self lbidd2 Hi Howard, Howard: "I was attracted by Bishop Berkeley's work years ago! (The only problem I had with him was what led him to being a cleric - the faith in a Person-God. ;-))" Larry: Whatever anyone thinks about nibbana is probably just as suspect ;-), but I liked what the Buddha said in one of your quotes: "When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Larry #86202 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun May 25, 2008 7:21 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Overview of KS 1: Background rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Hi, Nina (and James) - > > If this Ajahn Neb is the same person as the meditation teacher Ajahn > Naeb who emphasized sitting with great immobility and seeing the pains that > arise in the body and the aversive reaction to them, she is rather well known. Is > this that same teacher? > > With metta, > Howard > > ______ Dear Howard About Acharn Naeb. I spent about 4 months at her main temple, the same temple where Khun Sujin used to go to stay. The way acharn Naeb taught was rather more subtle than that. Indeed one was told never to try to sit unnaturally or do anything different from daily life postures. What one was supposed to be aware of was that when one moves, or streches or itches etc etc that this was in response to some type of dukkkha. That is one aspect of what she taught but there is more to it. Sittting immobile was specifically held out as an unnatural practice that one should not do. Sujin had an experience while on her first long retreat there and some time after that Acahrn Naeb asked her to teach. Sujin continued to go to stay at the temple every year but gradually came to appreciate that it was crucial to live naturally, otherwise one could easily be trying to manufacture sati, and go the wrong way. Acharn naeb taught one to be natural while on retreat but Sujin found the special retreat conditions tended towards encouraging lobha for results; i.e. not fully natural. It is so delicate and profound, the right way, and lobha is always looking to mislead. Robert #86203 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 25, 2008 7:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist lbidd2 Hi Alex, Just a couple of remarks: Alex: "The Buddha has clearly stated in MANY suttas that consciousness is dependently arisen from internal+external elements (matter)." Larry: It is true that genuinely nondual logic rejects external objects, but instead of rejecting one could include. How does one know external objects, or past or future objects, if not in the present moment? Alex: "Just like Atta in ultimate sense doesn't exist, so does consciousness, mental states, volition, feelings and perceptions in ultimate sense simply do not exist. To say that consciousness ultimately exists is like to sneak Ultimate Reality back in where it doesn't belong." Larry: This is your own idea. The Buddha said what there is is the 5 khandhas. That they are elusive and ultimately ungraspable doesn't mean they don't arise. If you prefer the middle way to nonduality, see dhammas as arising together. In that case the seen is not just the seen but also the seeing and contact, or some other combination. This is a visceral emptiness, not negation. It can be experienced. Larry #86204 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 25, 2008 5:13 pm Subject: Re: Overview of KS 1: Background buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Words fail me! :-) > Words fail me too because you are just repeating yourself. :-) Wait until tomorrow; I will post the next installment and we can have something new to discuss. Metta, James #86205 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 25, 2008 5:19 pm Subject: Re: Overview of KS 1: Background buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear James, > It would be incredible, I'd think, if you could actually spend some time with her in person and then tell us what you think James: I wouldn't mind meeting her in person. But unless she and I sat down together to practice some mindfulness of breathing meditation, I doubt my opinion would change. - still, it's good to read about "her teaching". > Looking forward to the meat, James: Okay, be patient. :-) > connie > Metta, James #86206 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 25, 2008 5:21 pm Subject: Re: Overview of KS 1: Background buddhatrue Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hi Connie & James. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > That isn't the only criteria. Sometimes people who appear to be > charming maybe totally different on inside... James: VERY GOOD point!! > > James, when is part 2 coming out? James: Tomorrow. I have six classes to teach today so I can't get it ready until tomorrow. > > Best wishes, > > Alex > Metta, James #86207 From: "colette" Date: Sun May 25, 2008 5:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self ksheri3 Good Day Larry, My earlier post had my F.Z. removed and this was done BECAUSE OF the need to say darkness is light or up is down or ... it's a reciprocal or inverse thing that an ego becomes addicted to. I believe it was approx. a year ago that I first met Dr. Goode's material on the internet and spoke once or twice with him, Dr. Goode. Interesting stuff. > Larry: As I see it, this is a path to the realization of anatta that hinges colette: WHAT? How can Anatta hinge on anything when it's existance cannot be explained in our words because once you try to materialize Anatta you remove it's Sunyata which seems to have the characteristic of playing the Snake Oil Salesman <....> --------------------------- > Larry: As I see it, this is a path to the realization of anatta that hinges on the idea that all > there is that truely matters is this, here, now. colette: oh no, now the matter becomes the Dzogchen practices concerning TIME & SPACE. -------------------------------- This is certainly not in conflict with the > principles of insight in abhidhamma. > colette: pardon my ignorance, but where did a conflict ever arise? No, I do not believe Insight is created by the Washington Times or by Rev. Sung Yung Moon (publisher and owner), in fact I had a well relationship with Arnuade de Borchgrave when the magazine Insight was first put out on the street. <...>I'm simply saying that I have no conflicts with the Abhidharma techinque(s) and have no problems with Vipissana, BUT, if you choose to apply the word "insight" well, then I've gotta protect the interests of the "Oral Traditions" which obligates me to just removign the sitting ducks at the arcade shooting gallery. ----------------------------------------------------- > Another slightly more conceptual approach to this sutta might be, when the seen is only > the seen there can be no desirable object colette: WHAT? If the individual does not see something, anything, then it would not be desirable would it? Any contact with the object is an automatic function of Kulasa and Akusala which raises the ugliness of the issues concerning BIAS and PREDJUDICE, etc. ------------------------------- because the seen is one thing and desire is > another. > colette: That is a possibility, however, if simplicity is your fortey, then I suggest reducing the problem further and getting rid of another layer of the Tax Code by starting the analysis with: OBJECT = EXTERIOR DESIRE = INTERIOR. toodles, colette #86208 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 25, 2008 11:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To : rwijayaratne@... RE: KEVATTA SUTTA D.N.#11 sarahprocter... Hi Mike, --- On Sat, 24/5/08, m. nease wrote: From: m. nease M: >Hi Reverend, Which post was that? ====== S: I think it was this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/86034 Any comments? Metta, Sarah reverendaggacitto wrote: > Hi dhamma friend! > i was reading your posting with intrest,since even though you give > a link to the accesstoinsight. org web site where this sutta can be > accessed,you distort and misrepresent the sutta like MANY by only > giving certain parts and therefore giving an interpretation that > seems > accurate but truly is NOT. #86209 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun May 25, 2008 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self egberdina Hi Larry (and Ken H), 2008/5/26 : > Hi Howard, > > Howard: "I was attracted by Bishop Berkeley's work years ago! (The only > problem I had with him was what led him to being a cleric - the faith in > a Person-God. ;-))" > > Larry: Whatever anyone thinks about nibbana is probably just as suspect > ;-), but I liked what the Buddha said in one of your quotes: "When there > is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you > there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just > this, is the end of stress." If it was not for the Buddha's thoughts on Nibbana, Buddhism would be open slather* for idealists of all hues. But Buddha did think about Nibbana, and Buddhism is not idealism :-) *o·pen slath·er noun Definition: Australia : free-for-all situation: a situation in which there are no limits or constraints on behavior ( informal ) (that's from encarta, Ken. I too am a dragon/dinosaur:-)) #86210 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun May 25, 2008 11:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Abh teaches Permanent rupa phenomenon? egberdina Hi Howard, 2008/5/25 : > > Hi, TG (and Herman) - > > You seem to be emphasizing an ebb-and-flow, continuationist view of > change, which I do think is an appealing perspective, but which is slightly > off-the-mark in its idea of a substance or process that continues/remains yet > becomes other - for when there is "other", nothing continues. > I don't countenance continuation of anything even for an instant as the > reality of things. I agree, there is no substance or essence that continues. Essences are merely fleeting aspects of what doesn't arise or cease, and that is being, or nibbana, which is without essence. And without it, Buddhism is meaningless. Cheers Herman #86211 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What exactly is "activity of consciousness". Q about citta egberdina Hi Alex, 2008/5/26 Alex : > Hi Herman, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: >> > > Clinging&craving ARE aspects of avijja and they are all founded in > all versions of DO. > > Sankhara also may include clinging/craving & avijja as the cause. > Sankhara has become all things to all men. Just check out how many different uses it has in Nyanatiloka's Dictionary, and note the compilers warning to carefully distinguish the meanings. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_s.htm > > Furthermore, the "full" DO scheme IS NOT linear. > I hate to tell you this, but the spinning of the wheel of DO across lifetimes is a commentarial invention. Of what use would it be learn by heart a commentators interpretation of the meaning of selected suttas? How do you see avijja and sankhara playing a role in consciousness before there is name&form / consciousness? Cheers Herman #86212 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 12:13 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, I just wished to add the note from our discussion with A.Sujin to this old thread and my reply (82592) to your earlier message: ... >> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Scott: I'm still into the Ariyapariyesanaa Sutta, and was reading how,prior to embarking on his course of harsh asceticism, the Buddha > > arrived at Senaanigama near Uruvelaa and said: > > > > "'This will serve for the striving of a clansmen intent on striving.' > > And I sat there thinking: 'This will serve for striving.'" > > [Ala.m vatida.m kulaputtassa padhaanatthikassa padhaanaayaa"ti.So kho aha.m bhikkhave tattheva nisiidi.m " alamida.m padhaanaayaa"ti.] > > > > Scott: The Buddha's striving in this case lead to a dead end. How > > does 'padhaana' relate to the above? > .... > S:....from MN36, Mahaasaccaka Sutta, I came across a curious summary from the commentary which you may like to consider. > > S: >We read that those who live "bodily and mentally withdrawn from sensual pleasures('kaayena ceva cittena ca kaamehi...'), and whose sensual desire, affection, infatuation, thirst, and fever for sensual pleasures has been fully abandoned and suppressed internally, even if those good recluses and brahmins feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to exertion, they are capable of knowledge and vision and supreme enlightenment; and even if those good recluses and brahmins so not feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to exertion, they are capable of knowledge and vision and supreme enlightenment." > > note 387, Nanamoli/Bodhi > " In this connection MA raises the question: Why did the Bodhisatta > undertake the practice of austerities if he could have attained > Buddhahood without doing so? It answers: He did so, first, in order to show his own exertion to the world, because the quality of invincible energy gave him joy; and second, out of compassion for later generations, by inspiring them to strive with the same determination that he applied to the attainment of enlightenment." **** S: K.Sujin was interested to read the full commentary to the Mahasaccaka sutta regarding this point. these were the notes I jotted down and put in an e-card: It seems he had right understanding, but a lot of accumulated viriya (right effort). It wasn't the right time to become enlightened and if it's not the right time, even with such great viriya, there's no result. The Bodhisatta's intention when following this course wasn't for others to see or copy, but others who knew about it would see his accumulated great viriya. Earlier she had suggested that because of the great accumulated viriya, there was some idea of trying very hard to suppress kilesa (defilements), but because of the great understanding, he knew that wasn't right. It doesn't mean there was any great wrong view about life. Metta, Sarah ========== #86213 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 25, 2008 11:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Larry) - In a message dated 5/25/2008 9:44:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Larry and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Physical Objects Disappear! > George Berkeley's THREE DIALOGUES BETWEEN HYLAS AND PHILONOUS is a remarkable book. It is a short, well written set of dialogues, arguing in exemplary style that there can be no external physical objects which are somehow perceived by our sensory apparatus. >>>> The idealism works only if you believe in the Mind, mentality or consciousness as the most basic process underlying everything else. This however has NO place in Buddha's teaching and deserves a place of an interesting and witty outsiders work. The Buddha has clearly stated in MANY suttas that consciousness is dependently arisen from internal+external elements (matter). Just like Atta in ultimate sense doesn't exist, so does consciousness, mental states, volition, feelings and perceptions in ultimate sense simply do not exist. To say that consciousness ultimately exists is like to sneak Ultimate Reality back in where it doesn't belong. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't say that consciousness ultimately exists. I say that consciousness is a conditioned event/activity - the primary mental activiity, and that the primary objects of consciousness are various rupas, but I maintain that consciousness and its various objects/contents/supports are mutually dependent and inseparable, and that the mental activities in general with their co-occurring objects constitute (samsaric) experience. This is not the idealism of Berkeley nor of the Lankavatara Sutra, but this phenomenalism does seem to me to be in consonance with the teachings of the Kalakarama and Bahiya Suttas of the Theravadin canon and with Vasubandhu in the Mahayana tradition. I would add, that I accept the existence of no unconditioned phenomenon at all other than nibbana, and that rules out mind-stuff, matter-stuff, four great elements, and a cosmic principle of avijja. Ignorance is a conditioned, defiling operation, not a cosmic principle like the Maya of the Hindus. ------------------------------------------------------- Remember the Sati's heresy: ------ Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhu Saati: Saati, is it true, that such an evil view has arisen to you. `As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness tansmigrates through existences, not anything else'.. Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else. Saati, how is that conscciousness? Venerable sir, this uttering and feeling one, that reaps the results of actions good and evil done here and there. Foolish man, to whom do you know me having preached this Teaching. Haven't I told, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, you foolish man, because of your wrong grasp, blame me, destroy yourself, and accumulate much demerit and that will be for your undoing and unpleasantness for a long time. Bhikkhus, founded on whatever, consciousness arises, it is reckoned on that. On account of eye and forms arises consciousness, it's reckoned eye consciousness. On account of ear and sounds arises consciousness, it's reckoned ear consciousness. On account of nose and smells arises consciousness, it's reckoned nose consciousness. On account of tongue and tastes arises consciousness, it's reckoned tongue consciousness.On account of body and touches arises consciousness, it's reckoned body consciousness. On account of mind and ideas arises consciousness, it's reckoned mind consciousness. Bhikkhus, just as based on whatever fire burns, it is reckoned by that. Fire ablaze with sticks is stick fire. Ablaze with twigs is twig fire. Ablaze with grass is grass fire. Ablaze with cowdung is cowdung fire. Ablaze with grain thrash is grain thrash fire. Ablaze with dirt is dirt fire. In the same manner consciousness on account is eye and forms is eye consciousness. Consciousness on account of ear and sounds is ear consciousness. Consciousness on account of nose and smells is nose conscioussness. Consciousness on account of tongue and tastes is taste consciousness. Consciousness on account of body and touches is body consciousness. Consciousness on account of mind and ideas is mind consciousness. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/038-mahatanhasankhaya-sutta-e1.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I remember it well and have quoted it more than once. -------------------------------------------------------- ---- The eye & form, ear & sound, nose & smells, tongue & tastes, body & touches, the mind-medium & mental objects belong to the Great Elements arranged in a certain and functional way. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Your words, Alex? Or are you quoting something here? Where is it said or implied that "the mind-medium & mental objects belong to the Great Elements arranged in a certain and functional way"? You, of course, have every right to adopt a position of materialist reductionism, which is what I understand you to be espousing here, "doing a 180" ;-), but I think it is a difficult case to make that the Buddha presented that as his teaching, there being so much more that points more in the alternative directions of mind-matter dualism and of phenomenalism. ---------------------------------------------------------- Buddha has taught that higher-level processes (such as a conventional Living Being) is made of lower level processes. The conventional "self" who is a complex phenomenon is made up of smaller processes (5 khandas). Less complex things produce higher level things, not vice versa. MahaBhuta is lower level thing, consciousness is higher. How can higher-level processes exist, what is their cause? More higher- level processes? What is their cause? Even MORE higher level causes? It becomes an infinite (and unanswerable) regress. But if we say that higher level processes (such as atta or consciousness) is caused by LOWER level processes, then we have a finite and terminating causal links with far greater explanatory power. Just like Buddha refuted the Atta belief, so the consciousness as ultimate is refuted. The computer and all the technology we have is due to realistic outlook of scientists. Realistic worldview has produced a lot, but not Idealism (or solipsism). Idealism doesn't seem to answer much and build predictable, repeatable and testable hypothesis. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: As far as I'm concerned, you're attempting to burn down a straw man, as I am neither an idealist in the Berkeleyan or Lankavatara-Sutra sense, which are the opposite side of the materialist coin. I suppose if a name had to be assigned to my perspective it could be 'phenomenalist' or 'experientialist' or 'empiricist'. But the names would serve little purpose except to satisfy a longing for pigeonholing. ----------------------------------------------- While scientists find matter (and can show that matter is a nessesery cause) , they can't find consciousness. I wonder why? In the same way that Atta can't be found. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't believe in matter or mind as cosmic principles. --------------------------------------------- Best Wishes, Alex ========================== With metta. Howard #86214 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 25, 2008 11:51 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Overview of KS 1: Background upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Jon, and Alex) - In a message dated 5/25/2008 9:51:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear Jon I have seen several references to Abhidhamma in say Vinaya for example. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17027 Robert ============================== Very interesting material, Robert. Thank you. As I'm very ignorant of the Vinaya (most especially), I'd much appreciate it if you would be willing to take the time and make the effort to delineate which quoted material is directly from the vinaya pitaka, which from the sutta pitaka, and which from commentaries. No rush, of course, and, for that matter, certainly no insistence - just a request. :-) With metta, Howard #86215 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 25, 2008 11:57 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Overview of KS 1: Background upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 5/25/2008 10:21:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Hi, Nina (and James) - > > If this Ajahn Neb is the same person as the meditation teacher Ajahn > Naeb who emphasized sitting with great immobility and seeing the pains that > arise in the body and the aversive reaction to them, she is rather well known. Is > this that same teacher? > > With metta, > Howard > > ______ Dear Howard About Acharn Naeb. I spent about 4 months at her main temple, the same temple where Khun Sujin used to go to stay. The way acharn Naeb taught was rather more subtle than that. Indeed one was told never to try to sit unnaturally or do anything different from daily life postures. What one was supposed to be aware of was that when one moves, or streches or itches etc etc that this was in response to some type of dukkkha. That is one aspect of what she taught but there is more to it. Sittting immobile was specifically held out as an unnatural practice that one should not do. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Interesting about the not-moving business. Evidently that was misreported. I'm frankly happier with what you are reporting, for meditation (or whatever one wants to call it) should be a matter of internal awareness, period. ------------------------------------------------------ Sujin had an experience while on her first long retreat there and some time after that Acahrn Naeb asked her to teach. Sujin continued to go to stay at the temple every year but gradually came to appreciate that it was crucial to live naturally, otherwise one could easily be trying to manufacture sati, and go the wrong way. Acharn naeb taught one to be natural while on retreat but Sujin found the special retreat conditions tended towards encouraging lobha for results; i.e. not fully natural. It is so delicate and profound, the right way, and lobha is always looking to mislead. Robert ============================ With metta, Howard #86216 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 4:40 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply: S: "K.Sujin...It seems he had right understanding, but a lot of accumulated viriya (right effort). It wasn't the right time to become enlightened and if it's not the right time, even with such great viriya, there's no result." Scott: Would this accumulated viriya be related to the term 'sammappadhaana'? It seems to suggest that the 'samma' aspect of viriya, in tangent with right understanding, entails a complete reliance on the presence of the right conditions in order for the exertion to arise. Atthasaalinii (p. 159) notes: "Right energy should be regarded as the root of all attainments" and "energy has exerting as its characteristic, strengthening the co-existent states as function, and opposition to giving way as manifestation." And would it be fair to suggest that, while there is viriya, it is only the energy that there is at a given moment, and that this energy is only there also due to conditions? When the moment is right, viriya strengthens. S: "The Bodhisatta's intention when following this course wasn't for others to see or copy, but others who knew about it would see his accumulated great viriya. Earlier she had suggested that because of the great accumulated viriya, there was some idea of trying very hard to suppress kilesa (defilements), but because of the great understanding, he knew that wasn't right. It doesn't mean there was any great wrong view about life." Scott: So, with all things working together and in the right time, right energy would be part of the Path-moment. When there is right energy, it is due to conditions, not to the thought: "I'm going to do this in order to make that happen." Does this 'right energy' serve to condition bodily movements? Sincerely, Scott. #86217 From: "Larry" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 7:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self lbidd2 Hi Colette, Colette: "OBJECT = EXTERIOR DESIRE = INTERIOR." Larry: There could also be desire for pleasant feeling, but feeling is one thing and desire another. One can see this as they arise. As an experience, desire doesn't desire anything. It is simply desire. Larry #86218 From: "Larry" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 7:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self lbidd2 Hi Herman, Herman: "If it was not for the Buddha's thoughts on Nibbana, Buddhism would be open slather* for idealists of all hues. But Buddha did think about Nibbana, and Buddhism is not idealism :-)" Larry: Buddha experienced nibbana; after that he didn't say much about it. But of course philosophical thinking can be useful. Who cares what "Buddhism" is??? That isn't the problem!!! Larry #86219 From: "m. nease" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 7:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To : rwijayaratne@... RE: KEVATTA SUTTA D.N.#11 m_nease Send IM Hi Sarah, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Mike, > > --- On Sat, 24/5/08, m. nease > wrote: > > From: m. nease > > M: >Hi Reverend, > > Which post was that? > ====== > S: I think it was this: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/86034 > > Any comments? Thanks for this. As I receive posts from DSG in my email program and this one was not addressed to anyone or clearly refer to anything in particular, I thought some response might be expected. And no, thanks, I'm not at all interested in this kind of correspondence. Best Wishes, mike #86220 From: "connie" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 8:22 am Subject: Perfections Corner (164) nichiconn Dear Friends, ch.5 continues: The perfection of energy is most important and it should be developed together with the other perfections so that the appropriate conditions are accumulated for reaching the further shore, that is, nibbaana. Even kusala which is daana, generosity, cannot be performed without viriya. People may have kusala citta with the intention to give things away, but it is difficult for them to act in accordance with their good intentions because they are lazy: when there is an object they could give away, they do not give it away. They have confidence in kusala and they have the intention to be generous, but when viriya necessary for the accomplishment of generosity is deficient, they are not able to accomplish generous deeds. Therefore, the perfection of energy is an indispensable support for the other perfections, such as generosity or morality. Sometimes we may be lax and too lazy to perform kusala, we may think that its performing is troublesome, that we are too tired, or that it is time consuming. At such moments we are overcome by akusala and hence kusala cannot arise. If we know that it is difficult for us to perform kusala because we are inert and lazy, we should at this very moment, immediately, apply ourselves with diligence to kusala. Life is extremely short, as it lasts just for one moment of citta and this moment may be kusala citta or akusala citta, depending on conditions. Thus, we should not give in to laziness with regard to our task of performing kusala. If we are all the time inert and lazy, it is evident that the perfection of energy is lacking and that, therefore, there are no conditions for the elimination of akusala. The only way to eliminate akusala is to be diligent and energetic in the performing of all kinds of kusala as far as we are able to. Some people regret it that they were wasting their time and did not perform kusala when there was an opportunity to do so because at such moments they were inert and lazy. Then they should consider the perfection of energy and accumulate it so that there are conditions for eliminating all kinds of akusala. ..to be continued, connie #86221 From: "Alex" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 9:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Just a couple of remarks: > > Alex: "The Buddha has clearly stated in MANY suttas that consciousness is dependently arisen from internal+external elements (matter)." > Larry: It is true that genuinely nondual logic rejects external objects, but instead of rejecting one could include. How does one know external objects, or past or future objects, if not in the present moment? >>> Buddha has stated in many suttas that there are 6 sense bases (ayatana?) and 6 external bases. Ultimately external as a definition is dependent on one's definition of internal. However the fact remains that consciousness is produced when two properly functioning elements "meet". > > Alex: "Just like Atta in ultimate sense doesn't exist, so does > consciousness, mental states, volition, feelings and perceptions in > ultimate sense simply do not exist. To say that consciousness ultimately exists is like to sneak Ultimate Reality back in where it doesn't > belong." > > Larry: This is your own idea. >>>> No. Please note when I had said "in ultimate sense". As a conditioned and derived products they do exist, but they themselves are based on certain functional interactions with Rupa. >>> The Buddha said what there is is the 5 khandhas. That they are elusive and ultimately ungraspable doesn't mean they don't arise. >>> See above. They are conditioned and produced. In MN109 the Buddha has stated this: rupakhanda is caused by rupa vedana/sankhara/sanna khanda are caused by contact vinnanakhanda is caused by nama rupa. Now, nama = the firsts 4 aggregates whose cause is rupa+contact Interestingly then, we get these most root causes rupa + phassa = Vinnanakhanda Phassa is a functional aspect of rupa (one rupa ayatana + another rupa dhatu). So ultimately using the most reductive analysis that the Buddha has given we see that Vinnana Khanda is a COMPLEX interaction of rupa and its derivatives. Best wishes, Alex #86222 From: "Alex" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 10:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist truth_aerator Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Larry) - > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't say that consciousness ultimately exists. I say that > consciousness is a conditioned event/activity - the primary mental activiity, and that the primary objects of consciousness are various rupas, but I maintain that consciousness and its various objects/contents/supports are mutually dependent and inseparable, and that the mental activities in general with their co-occurring objects constitute (samsaric) experience. >>> In many suttas the Buddha has said that consciousness arises AFTER two Rupa elements meet and consciousness not rupa is reckoned by its material causes. In many other suttas the Buddha has said that consciousness is arisen on something else, and in our world we can percieve that material DOES affect the "mental". If brick falls on you, you are temporary unnsciousness. If you are injected with tranquilizer then you too lose consciousness. If something happens to the brain, the mind is affected. Genes affecting at least SOME behaviour are found. Material cause of the world and mind is experimentally tried and tested and on its basis we have lots of scientific discoveries. I don't completely praise the science, I have my own religious disagreemenents with them. But we need to give credit where credit is due: Buddha for awakening and cessation of dukkha, Science for their materialistic benefit. >>>> This is not the idealism of Berkeley nor of the Lankavatara Sutra, >>> Good! >>> but this phenomenalism does seem to me to be in consonance with the teachings of the Kalakarama and Bahiya Suttas >>>>>> What is the cause of phenomenon? Buddha has spoken that it is ultimately caused by rupa and rupa derivatives. >>> of the Theravadin canon and with Vasubandhu in the Mahayana tradition. I would add, that I accept the existence of no unconditioned phenomenon at all other than nibbana, and that rules out mind-stuff, matter-stuff, four great elements, and a cosmic principle of avijja. Ignorance is a conditioned, defiling operation, not a cosmic principle like the Maya of the Hindus. >>>> Again, in MN#9 (and even in the Commentary) it is said that Avijja is caused by Avijja (and other factors can also co occur and add on). Avijja can be stopped, but like Samsara its begining, its ultimate First Conditioning force IS NOT FOUND. Also, can you please find the sutta which states the Cause of Great Elements? > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I remember it well and have quoted it more than once. > -------------------------------------------------------- I had to consider it a number of times to squeeze more juice out of it. Often uncomfortable things are overlooked which is what has happened to me before the last time I've read it. > > > > ---- > > The eye & form, ear & sound, nose & smells, tongue & tastes, body & > touches, the mind-medium & mental objects belong to the Great Elements > arranged in a certain and functional way. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Your words, Alex? Or are you quoting something here? Where is it said or implied that "the mind-medium & mental objects belong to the Great Elements arranged in a certain and functional way"? You, >> The first 6 dyads (ayatana or dhatu) are either from TB or BB's translation. The Great Element (MahaBhuta) is added by me from the suttas. After all, the eye, ear and so on are Physical. Earth dhatu + other dhatus. This is even said in Abh. The sense objects are Dhatu as well. >>>> but I think it is a difficult case to make that the Buddha presented that as his teaching, there being so much more that points more in the alternative directions of mind-matter dualism and of phenomenalism. >>>>>>>> The thing is that if we say "Ultimately Person (or chariot) doesn't really exist" because it is further reducible into components then if we are to be consistent and squeeze all the implications with the phrase we would have to say that 4 Khandas (except for Rupa Khanda) also have the same sort of conventional and epiphenomenal existence. In MN109 the Buddha has stated this: rupakhanda is caused by rupa vedana/sankhara/sanna khanda are caused by contact vinnanakhanda is caused by nama rupa. Now, nama = the firsts 4 aggregates whose cause is rupa+contact Interestingly then, we get these most root causes being rupa + phassa = Vinnanakhanda Phassa is a functional aspect of rupa (one rupa ayatana + another rupa dhatu + produced 6 sensory Vinnana meeting together). So ultimately using the most reductive analysis that the Buddha has given we see that Vinnana Khanda is a VERY COMPLEX interaction of rupa and its derivatives. Phenomenalism (as I understand it) MAY be dangerous to hold because then you avoid looking into the causes for Phenomenon. But the Buddha has often stressed to see the CONDITIONALITY, impermanence and so on. What external phenomenon are caused by, that cause is its objective condition. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't believe in matter or mind as cosmic principles. > --------------------------------------------- What you mean by "cosmic principles" ? Through a hard analysis of what the Buddha has stated in the suttas I do not see anything more basic building block than "MahaBhuta and Avijja". In DN#11 even the Great Brahma couldn't say where MahaBhutas don't exist, where they cease beyond remainder. Only the Buddha after rephrasing the question answered it. Best Wishes, Alex #86223 From: "m. nease" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 10:19 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Overview of KS 1: Background m_nease Hi Robert, Really interesting and useful background, thanks for posting this. mike #86224 From: "Alex" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 10:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What exactly is "activity of consciousness". Q about citta truth_aerator Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Furthermore, the "full" DO scheme IS NOT linear. > > > > I hate to tell you this, but the spinning of the wheel of DO across > lifetimes is a commentarial invention. Of what use would it be learn by heart a commentators interpretation of the meaning of selected suttas? How do you see avijja and sankhara playing a role in consciousness before there is name&form / > consciousness? > Cheers > Herman By non-linear I've meant this: Most of its factors occur throughout the day if not during even a split second throughout the day. Some factors are momentary (but may repeat billions of times in 1 second) Some factors are longer lasting, some last a long time and some links happen once a lifetime (moment of birth or death). Furthermore each factor coarises together or is dependent on the other factors. Ultimately the causality of DO isn't A then B then C. Sometimes ABC can co-arise together, especially SOME factors. How avijja affects consciousness? Not only as producing papanca, craving, cling and further becoming but also it is nessesery cause for any of the 6 consciousnesses to be. One of the aspects of Avijja is KammaChanda, sensual desire. When it is present one doesn't overlook the pleasant features of visual objects or even most basic sounds (for example). How it applies to meditation: KamaChanda keeps one be able to hear sounds during meditation. If one could totally let go of KamaChanda for some duration, then one wouldn't hear sounds in very deep meditation states. But because of its activity it is hard to avoid hearing sounds when meditating. "If internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, but there is no corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html "Engagement" in this case it is very likely that it means desire or attention (which is often due to desire or decision) which can be based and IS based on Avijja underlying the ignorant stream of a worldling. And even Ariyas below Arahatship haven't totally removed Avijja. Arahant though is not motivated by Avijja but exists due to past kamma and functional decisions (which do not create new Kamma but do allow Arahant to live). Best Wishes, Alex #86225 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon May 26, 2008 6:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist TGrand458@... Hi Alex, Howard, and Herman Just a few short ramblings below... In a message dated 5/26/2008 11:17:31 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: In many suttas the Buddha has said that consciousness arises AFTER two Rupa elements meet and consciousness not rupa is reckoned by its material causes. In many other suttas the Buddha has said that consciousness is arisen on something else, and in our world we can percieve that material DOES affect the "mental". If brick falls on you, you are temporary unnsciousness. If you are injected with tranquilizer then you too lose consciousness. If something happens to the brain, the mind is affected. Genes affecting at least SOME behaviour are found. Material cause of the world and mind is experimentally tried and tested and on its basis we have lots of scientific discoveries. I don't completely praise the science, I have my own religious disagreemenents with them. But we need to give credit where credit is due: Buddha for awakening and cessation of dukkha, Science for their materialistic benefit. ............................................................. TG: I feel I have overcome the (Buddhist) problem of the separation of nama and rupa by merely seeing them both as "forms of energy." The mental as an outgrowth of the physical and vice versa. (But "mental" or "physical" is just "our idea." Phenomena are what they are and they don't care what we think about them. LOL) Its just changes of "energy forms" based on conditional interactions. I feel that the features that appear, physical, mental, and whatever they group or form, are just energies pushing and pulling each other. And BTW, I arrived at these ideas through Buddhist studies, not scientific studies...although I cannot claim absolutely no influence from science as its part of our background growing up. I seem to largely agree with Alex's tact in that I consider the Four Great Elements as "fundamental structuring activities." And I see each of the Four as dependent on the other three. So none of them has (its own) essence either. By seeing the 4GE's as -- friction, dispersion, coalescence, and firmness; I see them as "activities" with "firmness" merely being an tenuous and unstable balance of coalescence and dispersion (and friction as also upholding the "balance.") So, this still leaves us with the problem of suffering and needing to do the actions to overcome it. Whether we see phenomena as various "energy configurations" or separate namas and rupas, we need to detach the mind and turn away from phenomena. For me, this is easier to do if phenomena are seen (and properly seen IMO) as without essence and as without "own characteristic." It is just our own delusion that causes suffering by being attached to phenomena and seeing it as "substantial" and "mine." We have to COMPLETELY stop seeing it that way. Training training. TG OUT #86226 From: "Alex" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 11:00 am Subject: "Go with the Flow" No effort, no lobha = ADHAMMA. truth_aerator Dear All, It is natural to be under the power of defilements we have been so for incalculable time. They are a default and reflexing mode of operation for Pujjhanas. Buddha has NEVER taught "natural and very easy" practice for becoming an Ariya. The current of defilements would simply sweep you head over toes if you didn't make one hell of an effort. Effortness comes when the hard work is finished, asekha - Arahatship. I can post tons of sutta here is one: -> Excerpt: "Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html ------ "These four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four? The individual who goes with the flow, the individual who goes against the flow, the individual who stands fast, and the one who has crossed over, gone beyond, who stands on firm ground: a brahman. "And who is the individual who goes with the flow? There is the case where an individual indulges in sensual passions and does evil deeds. This is called the individual who goes with the flow. "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow. "And who is the individual who stands fast? There is the case where an individual, with the total ending of the first set of five fetters, is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. This is called the individual who stands fast. "And who is the individual who has crossed over, gone beyond, who stands on firm ground: a brahman? There is the case where an individual, through the ending of the mental fermentations, enters & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment- release, having known & made them manifest for himself right in the here & now. This is called the individual who has crossed over, gone beyond, who stands on firm ground: a brahman. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html Best Wishes, Alex #86227 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 26, 2008 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 5/26/2008 1:13:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Larry) - > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't say that consciousness ultimately exists. I say that > consciousness is a conditioned event/activity - the primary mental activiity, and that the primary objects of consciousness are various rupas, but I maintain that consciousness and its various objects/contents/supports are mutually dependent and inseparable, and that the mental activities in general with their co-occurring objects constitute (samsaric) experience. >>> In many suttas the Buddha has said that consciousness arises AFTER two Rupa elements meet and consciousness not rupa is reckoned by its material causes. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I would appreciate a couple unambiguous examples. :-) -------------------------------------------- In many other suttas the Buddha has said that consciousness is arisen on something else, and in our world we can percieve that material DOES affect the "mental". If brick falls on you, you are temporary unnsciousness. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, Alex, as you might imagine, I interpret this as a bunch of experiences conditioning the experience that is a spike in consciousness (as regards the affected mental stream). ------------------------------------------ If you are injected with tranquilizer then you too lose consciousness. If something happens to the brain, the mind is affected. Genes affecting at least SOME behaviour are found. Material cause of the world and mind is experimentally tried and tested and on its basis we have lots of scientific discoveries. I don't completely praise the science, I have my own religious disagreemenents with them. But we need to give credit where credit is due: Buddha for awakening and cessation of dukkha, Science for their materialistic benefit. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, again, what you are considering as reality, I consider as a useful story-model. ------------------------------------------ >>>> This is not the idealism of Berkeley nor of the Lankavatara Sutra, >>> Good! ------------------------------------------ Howard: Always happy to please! ;-)) ------------------------------------------- >>> but this phenomenalism does seem to me to be in consonance with the teachings of the Kalakarama and Bahiya Suttas >>>>>> What is the cause of phenomenon? Buddha has spoken that it is ultimately caused by rupa and rupa derivatives. ---------------------------------------- Howard: There are multiple conditions, both namic & rupic phenomena, the most central of which is cetana, a nama. ------------------------------------------- >>> of the Theravadin canon and with Vasubandhu in the Mahayana tradition. I would add, that I accept the existence of no unconditioned phenomenon at all other than nibbana, and that rules out mind-stuff, matter-stuff, four great elements, and a cosmic principle of avijja. Ignorance is a conditioned, defiling operation, not a cosmic principle like the Maya of the Hindus. >>>> Again, in MN#9 (and even in the Commentary) it is said that Avijja is caused by Avijja (and other factors can also co occur and add on). Avijja can be stopped, but like Samsara its begining, its ultimate First Conditioning force IS NOT FOUND. Also, can you please find the sutta which states the Cause of Great Elements? ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Is there not but one asankhata dhamma according to the Dhamma? Also, just to give an example, when something moves, that motion is wind element. Are you saying that there is no arising of it? Actually, movement is an example of a mind-conditioned rupa. (Think of what happens when you move your hand to type a key.) ---------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I remember it well and have quoted it more than once. > -------------------------------------------------------- I had to consider it a number of times to squeeze more juice out of it. Often uncomfortable things are overlooked which is what has happened to me before the last time I've read it. > > > > ---- > > The eye & form, ear & sound, nose & smells, tongue & tastes, body & > touches, the mind-medium & mental objects belong to the Great Elements > arranged in a certain and functional way. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Your words, Alex? Or are you quoting something here? Where is it said or implied that "the mind-medium & mental objects belong to the Great Elements arranged in a certain and functional way"? You, >> The first 6 dyads (ayatana or dhatu) are either from TB or BB's translation. The Great Element (MahaBhuta) is added by me from the suttas. After all, the eye, ear and so on are Physical. Earth dhatu + other dhatus. This is even said in Abh. The sense objects are Dhatu as well. >>>> but I think it is a difficult case to make that the Buddha presented that as his teaching, there being so much more that points more in the alternative directions of mind-matter dualism and of phenomenalism. >>>>>>>> The thing is that if we say "Ultimately Person (or chariot) doesn't really exist" because it is further reducible into components then if we are to be consistent and squeeze all the implications with the phrase we would have to say that 4 Khandas (except for Rupa Khanda) also have the same sort of conventional and epiphenomenal existence. In MN109 the Buddha has stated this: rupakhanda is caused by rupa vedana/sankhara/sanna khanda are caused by contact vinnanakhanda is caused by nama rupa. Now, nama = the firsts 4 aggregates whose cause is rupa+contact Interestingly then, we get these most root causes being rupa + phassa = Vinnanakhanda Phassa is a functional aspect of rupa (one rupa ayatana + another rupa dhatu + produced 6 sensory Vinnana meeting together). So ultimately using the most reductive analysis that the Buddha has given we see that Vinnana Khanda is a VERY COMPLEX interaction of rupa and its derivatives. Phenomenalism (as I understand it) MAY be dangerous to hold because then you avoid looking into the causes for Phenomenon. But the Buddha has often stressed to see the CONDITIONALITY, impermanence and so on. What external phenomenon are caused by, that cause is its objective condition. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't believe in matter or mind as cosmic principles. > --------------------------------------------- What you mean by "cosmic principles" ? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Platonic ideals that exist without having ever arisen - abstractions viewed as realities. --------------------------------------------------- Through a hard analysis of what the Buddha has stated in the suttas I do not see anything more basic building block than "MahaBhuta and Avijja". In DN#11 even the Great Brahma couldn't say where MahaBhutas don't exist, where they cease beyond remainder. Only the Buddha after rephrasing the question answered it. Best Wishes, Alex =========================== With metta, Howard #86228 From: "Alex" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 11:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist truth_aerator Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Alex, Howard, and Herman > > TG: I feel I have overcome the (Buddhist) problem of the separation of nama and rupa by merely seeing them both as "forms of energy." >>>> Hmmm. I should investigate that. What exactly do you mean by Energy though? The thing is that Dualism has major philosophical weaknesses, and mere phenomenological view may not go deep enough analyzing the reality in order to grow disenchanted and disspassionate toward it. >>>>> The mental as an outgrowth of the physical and vice versa. >>>> How does mind affect the body? It is a big challenge over which philosophers were banging their heads and still do. Only rupa can affect the rupa since only inertia and mass which is "matter" can move the matter. The mind states have physical basis and that physical (not mental) moves. I suspect that some mental states (if not all) such as Anger don't really exist as mental states. Rather it is hormonal, muscular and so on PHYSICAL process which solves the above problem. Of course conventionally speaking there is mental state called Anger just like there is a conventional "self". But both can be reduced to components just fine. >>> (But "mental" or "physical" is just "our idea." Phenomena are what they are and they don't care what we think about them. LOL) >>>> Great point. The debate in philosophy is this: Is our knowledge of the world separate from the world itself, or is it one and the same? Or in Buddhist paraphrase: Is the knowing of the rupa and rupa itself different or not? >>?> Its just changes of "energy forms" based on conditional > interactions. I feel that the features that appear, physical, mental, and > whatever they group or form, are just energies pushing and pulling each other. > And BTW, I arrived at these ideas through Buddhist studies, not scientific > studies...although I cannot claim absolutely no influence from science as its > part of our background growing up. > I hope this doesn't lead to imagining sentient clouds floating in empty space... > I seem to largely agree with Alex's tact in that I consider the Four Great Elements as "fundamental structuring activities." And I see each of the Four as dependent on the other three. So none of them has (its own) essence either. By seeing the 4GE's as -- friction, dispersion, coalescence, and firmness; I see them as "activities" with "firmness" merely being an tenuous and unstable balance of coalescence and dispersion (and friction as also upholding the "balance.") > True although in the suttas the Buddha has talked about them being literal elements, internal and external. MN140. Rahulavada sutta and so on. > So, this still leaves us with the problem of suffering and needing to do the actions to overcome it. Whether we see phenomena as various "energy configurations" or separate namas and rupas, we need to detach the mind and turn away from phenomena. For me, this is easier to do if phenomena are seen (and properly seen IMO) as without essence and as without "own characteristic." It > is just our own delusion that causes suffering by being attached to phenomena > and seeing it as "substantial" and "mine." We have to COMPLETELY stop > seeing it that way. Training training. > > > TG OUT > I do believe in the importance of Meditation AND studying the words of the Buddha. Stream Entry is characterized by "straitng one's views" and stream enterers are often called ditthisampanno (or something like that). I think that completely (In most reductive and eliminative sense) material universe leads to MORE dispassion, disenchantment and so on then to imagine one to be "the consciousness percieving the world" which sounds kinda sterile. But talk about REAL (as opposed to just imagined as in sterile and clean nightmare) blood, guts, misentery, bowls, excrement, urine and such real components of the human body as manifestations of Earth, water etc elements does bring certain level of disenchantment. Best wishes, Alex (full of urine, excrement, guts, puss, sweat, and tears) #86229 From: "Alex" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 11:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist truth_aerator Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Alex - > > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would appreciate a couple unambiguous examples. :-) > -------------------------------------------- > I thought MN148 and MN28 were unambiguous and the discussion about MN109. > > > In many other suttas the Buddha has said that consciousness is arisen > on something else, and in our world we can percieve that material > DOES affect the "mental". If brick falls on you, you are temporary > unnsciousness. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, Alex, as you might imagine, I interpret this as a bunch of experiences conditioning the experience that is a spike in consciousness (as regards the affected mental stream). > ------------------------------------------ > But "internal" aytana and "external" object which are conditions for consciousness are not experiences by and in themselves. Only when there is consciousness. > If you are injected with tranquilizer then you too lose > consciousness. If something happens to the brain, the mind is > affected. Genes affecting at least SOME behaviour are found. Material > cause of the world and mind is experimentally tried and tested and on > its basis we have lots of scientific discoveries. I don't completely > praise the science, I have my own religious disagreemenents with > them. But we need to give credit where credit is due: > Buddha for awakening and cessation of dukkha, > Science for their materialistic benefit. > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, again, what you are considering as reality, I consider as a useful > story-model. > ------------------------------------------ This story model allows to make predictions, to produce concrete things that give results, to answer and fix (material) problems. To tell you the truth, it is logically possible to make an invincible argument and use it to refute other ideas. But is logically unbeatable arguments real or even helpful for that matter? "External world is an [experience, phenomenon, mind-only, perception, name it] and anything you say is based on it." The above (or a modification of it) argument if held dogmatically is unbeatable and unfalsifiable. But does it really explain things better than "God did it" or "It all God's plan to test yer faith." > >>> > but this phenomenalism does seem to me to be in consonance with the > teachings of the Kalakarama and Bahiya Suttas > >>>>>> > > What is the cause of phenomenon? Buddha has spoken that it is > ultimately caused by rupa and rupa derivatives. > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > There are multiple conditions, both namic & rupic phenomena, the most central of which is cetana, a nama. > ------------------------------------------- > Cetana is based on what? Ultimately on Contact (MN109 and some sutta on Kamma in AN, forgot exactly which one) And contact is based on "internal" + "external" base forming derived consciousnes which together make contact. The rupa contents are the initial and most basic causes. > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Is there not but one asankhata dhamma according to the Dhamma? Also, just to give an example, when something moves, that motion is wind element. Are you saying that there is no arising of it? Actually, movement is an example of a mind-conditioned rupa. (Think of what happens when you move your hand to type a key.) > ---------------------------------------------- What is the cause of rupa BUT other rupa? Furthermore if person build a statue out of clay, is the clay really produced? Or if the statue gets destroyed, is the Earth Element destroyed? Speaking of final destruction, it happens IN nibbana and Buddha had to be asked as even Great Brahma (who lives long enough to be able to see it) didn't know. So the statement that Mahabhuta can cease without remainder IS a very tough one and even the Maha Brahma "omniscient and allmighty" didn't know it. > > > The thing is that if we say "Ultimately Person (or chariot) doesn't really exist" because it is further reducible into components then if > we are to be consistent and squeeze all the implications with the > phrase we would have to say that 4 Khandas (except for Rupa Khanda) > also have the same sort of conventional and epiphenomenal existence. > > > In MN109 the Buddha has stated this: > > rupakhanda is caused by rupa > vedana/sankhara/sanna khanda are caused by contact > vinnanakhanda is caused by nama rupa. > > Now, nama = the firsts 4 aggregates whose cause is rupa+contact > > Interestingly then, we get these most root causes being > rupa + phassa = Vinnanakhanda > > Phassa is a functional aspect of rupa (one rupa ayatana + another > rupa dhatu + produced 6 sensory Vinnana meeting together). > > > So ultimately using the most reductive analysis that the Buddha has > given we see that Vinnana Khanda is a VERY COMPLEX interaction of > rupa and its derivatives. > > > -------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I don't believe in matter or mind as cosmic principles. > > --------------------------------------------- > > > What you mean by "cosmic principles" ? > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Platonic ideals that exist without having ever arisen - abstractions > viewed as realities. > --------------------------------------------------- > MahaBhuta isn't ideal, it is objective reality whether percieved or not. Of course the specific contents change, but they MBas remain without final cessation till nibbana and only for that subject who has reached it (the world doesn't end for Pujjhanas after Arahat's parinibbana). > > > > Through a hard analysis of what the Buddha has stated in the suttas I > do not see anything more basic building block than "MahaBhuta and > Avijja". In DN#11 even the Great Brahma couldn't say where > MahaBhutas don't exist, where they cease beyond remainder. Only the > Buddha after rephrasing the question answered it. > > > > Best Wishes, > > Alex #86230 From: "Alex" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 1:58 pm Subject: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) truth_aerator Hello all, Using the same anatta arguments we can demolish the delusion of mental states being some independent "entity" in some "mental warld". At least some mental states are not irreducible. a continuation of previous discussions. Lets start with "Anger" "Emotions more or less begin inside two almond-shaped structures in our brains which are called the amygdala. The amygdala is the part of the brain responsible for identifying threats to our well-being, and for sending out an alarm when threats are identified that results in us taking steps to protect ourselves. The amygdala is so efficient at warning us about threats, that it gets us reacting before the cortex (the part of the brain responsible for thought and judgment) is able to check on the reasonableness of our reaction. In other words, our brains are wired in such a way as to influence us to act before we can properly consider the consequences of our actions. [alex: so emotions such as anger can be pre-rational, pre though] As you become angry your body's muscles tense up. Inside your brain, neurotransmitter chemicals known as catecholamines are released causing you to experience a burst of energy lasting up to several minutes. This burst of energy is behind the common angry desire to take immediate protective action. At the same time your heart rate accelerates, your blood pressure rises, and your rate of breathing increases. Your face may flush as increased blood flow enters your limbs and extremities in preparation for physical action. In quick succession, additional brain neurotransmitters and hormones (among them adrenaline and noradrenaline) are released which trigger a lasting state of arousal. http://www.ozarkguidance.org/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=5805&cn=116 So what is anger: Is it catecholamine, is it heart rate, is it blood, blood pressure, is it tense muscles, flush of a face, is anger this or that particular hormone called "anger", is it this or that motion? etc etc. Can anger be discerned outside of the above? Similiar with many other states. So maybe like we work hard to remove atta belief, we need to remove belief in indivisible "mental" states. They are all compounded, impermanent, dependently arisen (on rupa) etc. Best wishes, Alex #86231 From: "colette" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 9:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self ksheri3 Hi Larry, Splitting hairs, are we? C'mon, man, the only point I was making was the CONDITION of the moment. Applying the concept of Mind-Only and the aspects of DZOGCHEN concerning TIME & SPACE, I was only making a statement concerning the position of the things. For instance people have to continually be reminded that they have a mind inside their body (don't go splitting hairs with my simple expanation here, although I'll eventually do it and be forced to do it), thus the focus of life is not on what is and what is not but on money, for instance. All other thoughts become subordinate to the acquisition of money and the slavery to/toward money. <.....>. In order for the individual to even attempt to be alive they must be reminded that they are alive, that they have thoughts, and that they have responsibilty THEREFORE I was identifying the OBJECT in a way that could lead to enlightenment since people want to somehow manifest the situation where the EXTERIOR OBJECT is somehow and INTERIOR RUPA (THING) -- this type of process may be resultant from the jealousy, anger, disgust, etc, that THE HAVES possess for philosophy, for rules & regs, for any and all type of self-control let alone control in general. If the attempt is to mock the concept of BUDDHA NATURE or the Jewish concept of the "shards of the broken vessels present in everything and the rupa which creates the material world, existance, we live in" then I will not subscribe. <.....> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > Colette: "OBJECT = EXTERIOR > > DESIRE = INTERIOR." > > Larry: There could also be desire for pleasant feeling, but feeling is one thing and desire > another. One can see this as they arise. As an experience, desire doesn't desire anything. It is > simply desire. > > Larry > #86232 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 26, 2008 5:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist lbidd2 Hi Alex, Alex: "So ultimately using the most reductive analysis that the Buddha has given we see that Vinnana Khanda is a COMPLEX interaction of rupa and its derivatives." Larry: That is certainly one way of looking at it and perfectly acceptable. Another way is that only one object is experienced at a time. A third is that knowledge is consciousness. It is not necessary to discredit other paths. Any path worth its salt should encompass all others going to the same place. But there still is just "one way" as far as the practitioner is concerned. Larry #86233 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 26, 2008 5:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self lbidd2 Hi Colette, Colette: "Splitting hairs, are we? C'mon, man, the only point I was making was the CONDITION of the moment. Applying the concept of Mind-Only and the aspects of DZOGCHEN concerning TIME & SPACE," Larry: You're right. Not a good answer. What's time and space? Colette: "I was identifying the OBJECT in a way that could lead to enlightenment" Larry: Exactly. That's "it". The essence of insight. How do you identify enlightenment? Larry #86234 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 6:22 pm Subject: Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "...So what is anger: Is it catecholamine, is it heart rate, is it blood, blood pressure, is it tense muscles, flush of a face, is anger this or that particular hormone called "anger", is it this or that motion? etc etc. Can anger be discerned outside of the above?..." Scott: Anger is naama, nor ruupa. Sincerely, Scott. #86235 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 6:29 pm Subject: Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) scottduncan2 Oops Me: "Anger is naama, nor ruupa." Scott: That would be 'NOT ruupa' - I'm starting to sound like you guys! ;-) ;-) :) Sincerely, Scott. #86236 From: "Alex" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 6:34 pm Subject: Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) truth_aerator Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "...So what is anger: Is it catecholamine, is it heart rate, is it > blood, blood pressure, is it tense muscles, flush of a face, is anger > this or that particular hormone called "anger", is it this or that > motion? etc etc. Can anger be discerned outside of the above?..." > > Scott: Anger is naama, nor ruupa. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Can Anger be found outside of those physiological states? Best wishes, Alex #86237 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 6:36 pm Subject: Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "Can Anger be found outside of those physiological states?" Scott: Of course. Anger is naama, not ruupa. Dhamma is not brain biochemistry. Sincerely, Scott. #86238 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 5:46 pm Subject: Overview of KS 2: Her Appeal/Charisma buddhatrue Hi All (especially Nina and Ven. P), In the first of my series on K. Sujin I examined her background; in this post I will examine how she appeals to her followers. From the Introduction to Taking Refuge in Buddhism by Sujin Boriharnwanaket: "People generally thought that they had to sit and be tranquil in order to develop wisdom as taught by the Buddha; what they learnt from Ms Sujin about the development of understanding in their daily lives was quite new to them. When I met Mr Buth Sawong in Thailand he said that he had never heard before such teaching of the development of right understanding. He was very happy to learn that this development was to be done in daily life...People do not have to force themselves to follow difficult ascetic practices, they can develop understanding of the phenomena which naturally appear in their daily lives, including defilements." http://www.vipassana.info/taking_refuge1.htm James: This is K. Sujin's selling point and what creates her appeal/charisma for her followers. The two important things to glean from this introduction is that what K. Sujin teaches is NEW and it makes those who believe in it VERY HAPPY. Of course, Buddhism is over 2,500 years old so there shouldn't be anything NEW to teach. People know of the tradition of sitting in tranquility to develop wisdom because that is what the Buddha taught and what has been practiced for over 2,500 years. Now, K. Sujin presents the NEW teaching that such "difficult ascetic practices" are not necessary to develop wisdom. Of course, the saying "If something sounds too good to be true it usually is" applies here. K. Sujin promises people something which isn't true- and the fact that it is NEW proves that. Unfortunately, those who buy into this selling point instantly feel VERY HAPPY, and it is difficult if not impossible to convice someone to give up that artificial feeling of happiness. Those who have personally experienced the benefits of silent meditation quickly scoff at what K. Sujin teaches, and clearly see the danger in it for her followers. But the followers, blinded by an artifical feeling of happiness, refuse to accept the folly of K. Sujin's teaching. To be continued.... Metta, James #86239 From: "colette" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 7:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self ksheri3 Hi Larry, It's always good to know that I have colleagues right there with me: an objective of my meditations is to focus on the ludicrous concepts of TIME & SPACE, however, I know, from past experience, that if I try to ram that meditational tool through and only demand answers to questions regarding TIME & SPACE, then I will get soooooooo caught up in endless amounts of "off-ramps" and won't have any time to traverse the expressway I'm on. I gotta let it come when it comes, type of thing. Eventually I'll get to having the time to totally focus on Longde and Semde but I don't know when that will be. Are you suggesting that the essence of Insight is the definition of Rupa? I'm certain that Nina and/or others can define this better or even speak of Vipissana better than I can, but Vipissana is only a vehicle, a mode of transportaion from any point to another point, it is a condition of conditioning. "Seeing" into the future is not an exact science, as I know it. I can many different solution sets to a given situation or condition and I can only "take the pulse" of the society and the environment when I try it or when it's given to me. Making an exact science of tarot card reading, dough ball reading, etc, is virtually impossible at our stage of scientific enlightenment. We still, as a society of humans, cannot agree that Quantum Mechanics works or that there are more than 10 different dimensions or not. So, I find it nearly impossible to qualify and quantify to uncanny ability some people have to see the future. Thanks for the conversation and actual dialogue, it's refreshing to know that there are others out there searching for some of the same answers as myself. Do you think that Scott is really turning into one of us since he labeled his "typo" as a characteristic that was changing his person or something of that nature. I'm laughing with you Scott, won't you laugh with us? lol toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > Colette: "Splitting hairs, are we? C'mon, man, the only point I was > making was the CONDITION of the moment. Applying the concept of > Mind-Only and the aspects of DZOGCHEN concerning TIME & SPACE," > > Larry: You're right. Not a good answer. What's time and space? > > Colette: "I was identifying the OBJECT in a way that could lead to > enlightenment" > > Larry: Exactly. That's "it". The essence of insight. How do you identify > enlightenment? > > Larry > #86240 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 7:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding: c: "Do you think that Scott is really turning into one of us since he labeled his 'typo' as a characteristic that was changing his person or something of that nature. I'm laughing with you Scott, won't you laugh with us? lol" Scott: As you may well know, Good colette, I have absolutely no sense of humour. Its true. As a result of an unfortunate childhood accident I became a totally humourless curmudgeon. My 'typo' was, in all actuality, a parapraxis which, when interpreted, means that I am actually neither with you nor not with you. Its all TRUE!!! Sincerely, Scott. #86241 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 8:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) egberdina Hi Scott, 2008/5/27 Scott Duncan : > Dear Alex, > > > Scott: Of course. Anger is naama, not ruupa. Dhamma is not brain > biochemistry. > It seems to me there is an awful lot of proto-science in what you call Dhamma. Why do you prefer the cittavitthi theory of phsychological causation over all other theories and models? Cheers Herman #86242 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 26, 2008 9:41 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Overview of KS 1: Background sarahprocter... Dear Howard (& Robert), --- On Mon, 26/5/08, upasaka@... wrote: >H: If this Ajahn Neb is the same person as the meditation teacher Ajahn > Naeb who emphasized sitting with great immobility and seeing the pains that > arise in the body and the aversive reaction to them, she is rather well known. Is > this that same teacher? .... S: Accounts I've read, such as in "Living Buddhist Masters" by Jack Kornfield, ch 8 (on-line), do quote her as telling students not to move and so on as you suggest. In this one, it quotes her as saying: "Wait, hold it. Why are you moving? don't move yet!". There's a lot more interesting detail in the chapter. Her ideas about practice were one thing and her knowledge of Abhidhamma, another -- not in conformity, as I've been told and as it seemed when I read her book. Btw, I visited her a couple of times in hospital with K.Sujin, but she was already very ill by this time. Metta, Sarah ========== #86243 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 26, 2008 10:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Overview of KS 2: Her Appeal/Charisma sarahprocter... Hi James (Ven P. & all), An interesting series.... I'm looking forward to the meat as well:-). --- On Tue, 27/5/08, buddhatrue wrote: >From the Introduction to Taking Refuge in Buddhism by Sujin Boriharnwanaket: "People generally thought that they had to sit and be tranquil in order to develop wisdom as taught by the Buddha; what they learnt from Ms Sujin about the development of understanding in their daily lives was quite new to them. When I met Mr Buth Sawong in Thailand he said that he had never heard before such teaching of the development of right understanding. He was very happy to learn that this development was to be done in daily life...People do not have to force themselves to follow difficult ascetic practices, they can develop understanding of the phenomena which naturally appear in their daily lives, including defilements. " http://www.vipassan a.info/taking_ refuge1.htm ======== S: Yes, this was my reaction. Not only happy, but very relieved to appreciate that there really was no self that could control any dhammas to arise and that efforts and attachment to having certain dhammas arise were a development of the wrong path. I had never met K.Sujin when I fist listened to her teachings (on tape in a temple in Sri Lanka - thanks Ann!), so there was no question of personal 'charisma'. It was the good-sense and immediate applicability in the words I heard which appealed (as it was for the Cambodian teacher above. I remember he told us that he and other Cambodian friends were able to pick up AS's Thai radio program when the teachings had almost been wiped out in Cambodia.) When I started studying the texts (Ti-pitaka and commentaries] all the teachings on realities as anatta were there. There was no conflict of meaning anymore as regards the applicability in daily life. I realise that you and others read a different message in these same texts. We make the (edited) discussion recordings available on-line, in case anyone else might be able to benefit in the same way the Cambodians or I did.*** I still rejoice every day at the good fortune to have heard about Dhamma in daily life and to appreciate that it's not a question of following any rules or techniques at all. Metta, Sarah p.s Ven P., I'd be interested to read one of your reports from the session last Friday in Bangkok. We were very glad to hear that Ven Guttasila also joined (alond with our friends Vince & Nancy). ***[www.dhammastudygroup.org] ============= #86244 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 26, 2008 10:50 pm Subject: INDIA, Feb 2009 sarahprocter... Hi James & all, Next Feb (18th -25th), there will be a one week only trip to Bodh Gaya and Varanasi/Sarnath with K.Sujin and friends. It'll be a really excellent opportunity to visit/participate in - - Bodh Gaya and the Bo tree, to circumambulate with candles etc - all the holy places in the area (where the Buddha was given milk rice, the Naranjara river, the caves where the bodhisatta practised austerities for 6 yrs and so on. - make offerings to 100 monks in B.Gaya, have discussions with them and lay people at the Maha Bodhi society - visit Rajgir, Vulture's Peak, pay respect at the Buddha's kuti, Ananda's, caves of Sariputta and Mogallana, Bamboo Grove etc - Sarnath and the incredible excavated ruins - pay respect to the relics - a ceremony to begin the renovation of a new library at the Maha Bodhi Society there - Benares - boat on the Ganges - dhamma discussion/shopping ****** S: Even if anyone has no interest in spending any time (let alone discussion) with A.Sujin, it's a great opportunity to visit these places in relative comfort and with access to occasions not normally available to tourists. It's also easy to skip any parts of the itinerary that don't appeal. No one minds at all - no rules, of course:-). If you'd like more details, costs etc, pls send me a note off-list and I can f/w the full details. Metta, Sarah ========== #86245 From: "colette" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 10:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self ksheri3 Hi Scott, At least you didn't get all kinds of angry and defensive, trying to defend a position that is non-existant. > Scott: As you may well know, Good colette, I have absolutely no sense > of humour. Its true. colette: pshaw or however that humourous disbelieving remark is spelled. I can't possibly believe that you find no enjoyment, therefore humour, in everyday life. Ah, I originally thought it was my desert-like sarcasm, dry as dust, that you enjoyed about me and my view point (Point of View) People that enjoy that aspect of me are generally older and disillusioned, sick & tired of the stupid games we play in our youth which waste so much valuable time of life, existance, and manifest soooooooo many, countless, OBSCURATIONS, bumps in the road, blockages, bottlenecks, etc. and then, in our old age, we are forced to deconstruct that stuff which was useless to begin with but we ignored it while we had the chance, that's very close to human nature. Sloth is a deadly sin in Christianity and is highly recognized with Topor in Buddhism so laziness must be an axiom. ------------------------------------ As a result of an unfortunate childhood > accident I became a totally humourless curmudgeon. colette: my body is sooooo scarred up because of all the lacerations and accidents that I had in my childhood, then, while I've got a great potential for Athletic scholarships to countless universities, I go and roll my dad's brand spankin' new Caddy which caused the trauma that took away my athletic potentials but gave me other capabilities. "humourless" is a copout to just be an old goat neighing at the moon or eating paperwork that happens to be laying around without any monitors taking care of the paperwork, in triplecate, no less. "curmudgeon", how cute, is your name Ambrose Hawk? C'mon, sticks in the mud are everywhere when the chips are down. Little children pout in the corner with Jack, who may not be so little anymore, c'mon, who wants guests at a party or celebration to pout in a corner? Mingle, get with the flow. The water's great and this Stream of Consciousness is nice for "tubing". LOL Oops, sorry to cut it short Scott but the other day somebody mentioned some catholic priest who was examines in a Dr. Goode's site and I found a Wikipedia note on this character to be interesting. I'll have to flit for the time being. toodles, colette My 'typo' was, in > all actuality, a parapraxis which, when interpreted, means that I am > actually neither with you nor not with you. Its all TRUE!!! > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #86246 From: Sukinder Date: Mon May 26, 2008 11:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] was: Rain Gods - Cold blooded conditionality sukinderpal Hi Howard, Sorry for the delay in responding. I started writing a few times but would get distracted by other things. ================ Sukin: Besides it points also to aspects such as characteristic, function and cause, depending on the understanding. So why not use it? ;-) =============================== Howard: Actually, I do use 'paramattha dhamma' a lot. I understand it to refer to those phenomena that are ultimate in the sense that they are not composed of other phenomena. That sense of 'ultimate' (or 'basic') doesn't bother me in the slightest. I also have no problem with the word 'reality' as referring to something actually observed as opposed to merely imagined. Sukin: If you don’t mind, I’d like to put things into perspective by starting from the beginning. Citta, cetasikas, rupa and Nibbana are the four Paramattha Dhammas. They are ‘ultimate realities’ in that wisdom of vipassana when it arises to “knowâ€?, it has these as object. The first three by characteristic, function and cause, in other words, they are known to be “conditionedâ€? realities. Nibbana is known to be “realâ€? by the particular and greater panna of Lokuttara as ‘signless’, ‘causeless’, ‘unconditioned’ etc. Concepts however, have no characteristic, function and cause and are not known to be signless, causeless etc. In other words, concepts are neither conditioned nor unconditioned. They are simply ‘objects of thinking’ and don’t have any existence outside of this. ================ Howard: But the term 'a reality' has a danger to it. In its adjectival usage it is fine. If someone were to say that something or other were just imagined, a perfectly natural response might be "No, it's a reality." But the use of 'a reality' as a noun leads to reification. Sukin: I have never thought to make the kind of distinction. But I do state Citta, Cetasikas and Rupa as being objective realities. If this implies seeing them as ‘nouns’, then I don’t have a problem with this. What I do think important to remember, is that these are reference to one’s moment to moment experiences. More importantly, I remember to distinguish Pariyatti from Patipatti. The goal is to know precisely the nature of realities and any ‘conceptual grasp’ is in direct proportion to the understanding developed along the way. And while my own understanding is very low and if forced to ‘describe’ realities, I would indeed be quite imprecise, I think that the way to go is keep coming back to the present moment with an understanding to differentiate better and better moments of ‘thinking about’ from what is direct experience of characteristics. As I’ve said before, one of the things that impressed me about Nina’s writings as compared to other Buddhist writers, is that hers is pointing to present moment experiences, whereas those other writers tend to encourage proliferation of ideas. I think we should consider when we are drawn to take an interest in the present moment and when we get lost in philosophizing. Sometimes it seems like we are taking care not to go wrong ‘theoretically’, however often we end up doing this in a way that is being caught more in “ideasâ€?. Hence one important qualification for Pariyatti is that it is aimed at the present moment. It is not merely thinking about and remembering key concepts. Even this is so hard to come by given our great tendency to taking an interest in everything else but the dhammas arising and falling away now. ================= Howard: A particular problem is the English combination 'an ultimate reality', which can suggest that 1) there are degrees of reality, and that 2) paramattha dhammas (i.e., ultimate/basic phenomena) are "the most real phenomena." I do not like that combining of 'ultimate' and 'reality'. It is utterly misleading. I would drop the 'realities' part. Every actual (unimagined) phenomenon is real, and there is no need to belabor that. (So-called selves, for example, are unreal. They are merely imagined.) Simply using the term 'phenomena' as translation of 'dhammas' is fine, in which case 'paramattha dhamma' is translated as 'ultimate/basic phenomenon'. Sukin: I think as long as we continue mistaking concept for reality, take experiences for ‘self’ and see ‘cause and effect’ which is result of thinking about conventional reality in a certain way but does not reflect kamma –vipakka nor any other cause -effect relationship / conditionality taught by the Buddha, I think being reminded about what takes place at the “ultimateâ€? level is indeed very important. Again here, being mislead is more to do with failure to recognize when we ‘go wrong’ in terms of what is happening in the present moment. Whatever terms used and however we try to clarify and explain, in the end, the development of wisdom must include being able to identify ‘thinking’ from the ‘concepts’ which we tend to become so involved in. Before reaching the required level of wisdom however, namely the Maggas and perhaps also the Vipassana nanas to some extent, where the understanding is decisive and precise, there remains the danger of completely forgetting and going wrong. So I don’t think that we could say at our present level of understanding, that we ‘don’t need to be reminded’ about realities being ‘ultimate’. In any case, since one is being encouraged to in fact think ‘ultimate realities’ *with* understanding, is there any need to object? :-) On the other hand, there is danger that any objection comes more from a ‘philosophical’ standpoint. The solution sought in this case would imo, likely end up being in the same plane, and this would be a trap, wouldn’t it? Metta, Sukin #86247 From: han tun Date: Tue May 27, 2008 12:20 am Subject: My eye situation hantun1 Dear Sarah and Nina and All, I had yesterday checked with the Ophthalmologist, and found that I now have dry ARMD (Age-Related Macula Degeneration). I will have to curtail working with the computer looking at the monitor screen. I will not open the messages unless it is addressed to me in the Subject. I will have to stop my series on Patthaana. I am so sorry to let you down. Please do not be disturbed. It is age-related kaama vipaaka over which I have no control. Respectfully, Han #86248 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 27, 2008 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My eye situation sarahprocter... Dear Han, No need to apologise at all. You're not letting us down. Please rest your eyes and we'll try not to over-tax them! I also find it helpful to blink every few minutes at the screen and to take a rest. We have to be sensible. Just briefly, I was about to reply to #86117 (What I heard. Old Age) on the present moments comments. Thinking is not wrong at all. It's conditioned of course. If thinking is the present moment reality now, there can be awareness of it. It can be understood too, even when it is reflecting on something before it happens. The reflecting is a reality:-). Pls indicate if you'd like me to go back to your message and say more. I'm just concerned about causing your eyes difficulty. Take care, dear Han. Metta, Sarah --- On Tue, 27/5/08, han tun wrote: I had yesterday checked with the Ophthalmologist, and found that I now have dry ARMD (Age-Related Macula Degeneration) . I will have to curtail working with the computer looking at the monitor screen. I will not open the messages unless it is addressed to me in the Subject. I will have to stop my series on Patthaana. I am so sorry to let you down. Please do not be disturbed. It is age-related kaama vipaaka over which I have no control. #86249 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 27, 2008 12:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Abh teaches Permanent rupa phenomenon? sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- On Sat, 24/5/08, Herman Hofman wrote: H:> But my main point was that seeing without object doesn't occur. In that sense, objectless seeing is just thinking. ========= S: No disagreement from anyone on this as far as I recall. No citta can arise without an object. ========= > S: "sabbe sankhara anicca...." > Regardless of whether it's known by anyone at all, whether it's a Buddha era or not, the truth remains the same. .... >H:Well, is the heart base a sankhara? ====== S: Yes, a sankhara dhamma, whatever name it's given. ========= >H: Is it something the Buddha taught? ========= S: I believe so, yes, but am not really interested in re-hashing the heart-base discussions. See U.P. for more:-) =========== > H: It seems to me that things that don't exist at all cannot be said to be either permanent or impermanent. ========= S: Exactly and you won't find a post in which I've suggested anything else:-) For that matter 'things that don't exist' can't know anything either..... ========== >H: But what do I know? ========= S: Nothing at all - neither a permanent or impermanent Herman exists:-) Metta, Sarah =========== #86250 From: han tun Date: Tue May 27, 2008 1:28 am Subject: Re: My eye situation hantun1 Dear Sarah, Sarah: Thinking is not wrong at all. It's conditioned of course. If thinking is the present moment reality now, there can be awareness of it. It can be understood too, even when it is reflecting on something before it happens. The reflecting is a reality:-) Han: I am happy with your above comment. -------------------- Sarah: Pls indicate if you'd like me to go back to your message and say more. I'm just concerned about causing your eyes difficulty. Han: I have nothing more to say. If you have, I will be happy to read them. Your posts are always educational. -------------------- Sarah: Please rest your eyes and we'll try not to over-tax them! I also find it helpful to blink every few minutes at the screen and to take a rest. We have to be sensible. Han: Macula Degeneration is irreversible. The best I can do is to somewhat slow down its progress (even that is doubtful to succeed). ------------------- Sarah: Take care, dear Han. Metta, Han: Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #86251 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 27, 2008 2:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the causes of 4 great elements + space & consciousness 5-6th? sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Sun, 25/5/08, Alex wrote: A: >Does anyone know what is the origin of 4 great elements in the suttas? ======= S: The same as the origin of the 4 great elements in the Abhidhamma:-) Citta, kamma, temperature and nutriment. You just have to work harder to find the answers in the suttas.... If you prefer to ignore the Abhidhamma and don't read the suttas carefully, you end up with the kind of unbelievable comments throughout your post #86190, such as "Great Elements. Don't seem to be caused or composed by anything other than themselves." ========== A: >Also, what is the cause of Space element? ========= S: The same cause as that which conditions the kalapas of rupas which it separates. Remember our CMA discussion on this point. ============ A: >What is the cause of Consciousness element stated in MN140? Can someone please explain in MN140: There remains only consciousness: pure & bright. ====== S: This is the consciousness (citta) of insight, i.e accompanied by panna which clearly knows realities. The cause or conditions for such are hearing the dhamma, considering, wise attention, accumulations of panna. ========= A: >What does one cognize "with that consciousness? One cognizes 'pleasure.' One cognizes 'pain.' One cognizes 'neither pleasure nor pain.' " http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.140. than.html ========= S: This is referring to what that consciousness with developed right understanding knows. Namas and rupas are known exactly as they are at such moments of insight. Metta, Sarah p.s with regard to some questions on the Guide notes in CMA, they are mostly very good and helpful. However they are not the Ab. Sangaha or commentary itself. At some stage, you might like to also consider purchasing the commentary to the Ab. Sangaha from PTS. It's called 'Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma'. ============== ========= #86252 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. egberdina Hi Scott, 2008/5/26 Scott Duncan : > Dear Sarah, > Scott: So, with all things working together and in the right time, > right energy would be part of the Path-moment. When there is right > energy, it is due to conditions, not to the thought: "I'm going to do > this in order to make that happen." Does this 'right energy' serve to > condition bodily movements? > You seem to be saying that right energy is knowable as right energy when it arises by conditions. But you also seem to be saying that when the conditions for right energy are there, it is never accompanied by the thought "I'm going to do this.......". Have I understood you correctly? Cheers Herman #86253 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 3:10 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Overview of KS 1: Background egberdina Hi Robert, 2008/5/26 rjkjp1 : > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: >> > Dear Howard > About Acharn Naeb. I spent about 4 months at her main temple, the same > temple where Khun Sujin used to go to stay. The way acharn Naeb taught > was rather more subtle than that. Indeed one was told never to try to sit > unnaturally or do anything different from daily life postures. What one was > supposed to be aware of was that when one moves, or streches or itches > etc etc that this was in response to some type of dukkkha. That is one > aspect of what she taught but there is more to it. Sittting immobile was > specifically held out as an unnatural practice that one should not do. > > > > Sujin had an experience while on her first long retreat there and some > time after that Acahrn Naeb asked her to teach. Sujin continued to go to > stay at the temple every year but gradually came to appreciate that it was > crucial to live naturally, otherwise one could easily be trying to > manufacture sati, and go the wrong way. Acharn naeb taught one to be > natural while on retreat but Sujin found the special retreat conditions > tended towards encouraging lobha for results; i.e. not fully natural. It is so > delicate and profound, the right way, and lobha is always looking to > mislead. > Robert > I am interested in what it could be to be "natural". It seems to me that the way of the worldling is very natural, and that the way of one who renounces the world is very unnatural. It seems to me that greed, aversion and ignorance of conditionality are very natural, they are the order of the day And it would seem very counterproductive to go on a retreat in order to be natural. In fact, I would call a "natural" retreat a perversion of what it means to retreat. Cheers Herman #86254 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 27, 2008 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- On Mon, 26/5/08, Scott Duncan wrote: S: "K.Sujin...It seems he had right understanding, but a lot of accumulated viriya (right effort). It wasn't the right time to become enlightened and if it's not the right time, even with such great viriya, there's no result." >Scott: Would this accumulated viriya be related to the term 'sammappadhaana' ? ======== S: As I understand, sammappadhaana can refer to the 4 aspects of right effort in the development of the path or can be used in a more ordinary sense of right effort. ======= >Scott: It seems to suggest that the 'samma' aspect of viriya, in tangent with right understanding, entails a complete reliance on the presence of the right conditions in order for the exertion to arise. ======== S: If there is right understanding, viriya has to be 'samma'. The strength and so on will also depend on accumulations and other conditions. ========= >Scott: Atthasaalinii (p. 159) notes: "Right energy should be regarded as the root of all attainments" and "energy has exerting as its characteristic, strengthening the co-existent states as function, and opposition to giving way as manifestation. " >And would it be fair to suggest that, while there is viriya, it is only the energy that there is at a given moment, and that this energy is only there also due to conditions? ======== S: Yes, like all other conditioned dhammas. ======== > Scott: When the moment is right, viriya strengthens. ==== S: Particular kinds of viriya (whether kusala or akusala), strengthen according to accumulations, i.e by nat. decisive support condition. ====== S: "The Bodhisatta's intention when following this course wasn't for others to see or copy, but others who knew about it would see his accumulated great viriya. Earlier she had suggested that because of the great accumulated viriya, there was some idea of trying very hard to suppress kilesa (defilements) , but because of the great understanding, he knew that wasn't right. It doesn't mean there was any great wrong view about life." >Scott: So, with all things working together and in the right time, right energy would be part of the Path-moment. When there is right energy, it is due to conditions, not to the thought: "I'm going to do this in order to make that happen." ======== S: Let's put it another way. There cannot be Path-moment without samma-vayamo (right effort). It's an essential ingredient of the path. When it arises, it is due to right understanding and the other path factors as support. ======== >Scott: Does this 'right energy' serve to condition bodily movements? ======== S: Bodily movements (if conveying a meaning) are conditioned by citta (and supporting cetasikas, inc. viriya). There can be bodily movements conditioned by other causes of course. A complex can of worms here.... Pls let me know if anything doesn't make sense here. Metta, Sarah p.s rumour has it that you're about to start a particular sutta corner...I'll look forward to that. We'll be away for a month from Friday eve in the Swiss mountains, but we'll be taking a computer to our little chalet, so should be able to follow along. ======== #86255 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 3:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What exactly is "activity of consciousness". Q about citta egberdina Hi Nina and K Sujin, 2008/5/24 Nina van Gorkom : > Hi Alex, > Op 23-mei-2008, om 20:58 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > I quote from Kh Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas: > > < When we think that there is the world, beings, people or different > things, we should know that this is only a moment of citta which > thinks about what appears to seeing, about visible object. Having mind as the forerunner of a world that it imagines, a world that exists in dependence on the mind, is idealism, rank idealism. Not Buddhism. Buddhism has a phenomenal world that is known dependent on conditions, and nibbana that IS independent of conditions. Paranibbana is not the end of being, it is the end of knowing. Existence both precedes and proceeds from essence. Cheers Herman #86256 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 4:00 am Subject: Ignorance as "ignorance of condtionality" ( was Overview of KS 1: Background philofillet Hi Herman > who renounces the world is very unnatural. It seems to me that greed, > aversion and ignorance of conditionality are very natural, they are > the order of the day And it would seem very counterproductive to go on > a retreat in order to be natural. In fact, I would call a "natural" > retreat a perversion of what it means to retreat. I think this is well said. The notion that we can go against the flow of our defilements by being content to live in a natural way, without striving, is odd. But a common one, at least at DSG. BTW, I was interested that you define delusion/ignorance as "ignorance of conditionality." Is that a standard definition? I guess it makes sense. I sometimes think about what delusion is and it seems to be more in line, in its crudest form at least, with the vipallasas. So much energy poured into pursuing things that are ultimately empty of value at best or harmful at worst. So this "ignorance of conditionality" - a standard term? Metta Phil #86257 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 12:02 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Overview of KS 1: Background upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Robert) - In a message dated 5/27/2008 12:42:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Howard (& Robert), --- On Mon, 26/5/08, upasaka@... wrote: >H: If this Ajahn Neb is the same person as the meditation teacher Ajahn > Naeb who emphasized sitting with great immobility and seeing the pains that > arise in the body and the aversive reaction to them, she is rather well known. Is > this that same teacher? .... S: Accounts I've read, such as in "Living Buddhist Masters" by Jack Kornfield, ch 8 (on-line), do quote her as telling students not to move and so on as you suggest. In this one, it quotes her as saying: "Wait, hold it. Why are you moving? don't move yet!". There's a lot more interesting detail in the chapter. Her ideas about practice were one thing and her knowledge of Abhidhamma, another -- not in conformity, as I've been told and as it seemed when I read her book. Btw, I visited her a couple of times in hospital with K.Sujin, but she was already very ill by this time. Metta, Sarah ================================= Thank you, Sarah. I had read a later edition of that same book, with a changed title, and, yes, it showed her as teaching one to maintain immobility, as possible, in order to see how pain regularly and naturally arises, and how we (usually subliminally) constantly switch position to dispell the discomfort. Now, that *could* be read as kind of an intentional intervention in things that is very intrusive and artificial, but which Robert says first-hand observation shows not to be the case. Perhaps what-is-what is, as is so often the case, in the eye of the beholder. My *guess* is that the approach was to have the students sit still (to the extent possible) and carefully see what occurs, noting discomfort and resultant inclinations to aversively move to assuage the discomfort, at first noting only gross pain and very strong aversion, and subsequently noticing much more subtle discomfort and aversive reaction. In any case, I doubt that it should be looked upon as an ascetic or self-torturing practice, but as a way of coming to see how discomfort and aversion to it naturally arise, and how one, in response to the aversion, constantly is acting robotically to side-step the discomfort. So, the practice seems to me to be really more one of not engaging in the usual avoidance techniques we typically engage in, and to look and see what happens when we just let things be and remain mindful. And what happens is that at least the first two of the noble truths of dukkha present themselves. With metta, Howard #86258 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 4:08 am Subject: Why the kneeling to AS in that photo? And the yellow? philofillet Hi Bangkok group Speaking of KS, as James is doing, there is something that keeps bugging me that I should ask about. There is a photo from her birthday party, I think, where people are getting down on their knees in front of her when she is coming in the room. What's that all about? I know from when I was in Thailand one does that for the King, but if AS is just a "khun" and denies that she is a teacher, why do people do that? Why does she allow them to do that? Is it a birthday tradition? Today is Naomi's birthday. Perhaps when she gets home from work I will surprise her at the door by kneeling. I have to ask about that because I need to erase a suspicion that her organization is a cult. Please forgive me for asking - I think I will be able to erase that suspicion but I do have to ask. It will make it easier for me to get back to discussing Dhamma here, which I do want to do, gradually.... Oh, and why was everyone wearing yellow in one of those pictures? All the Thai people. Was that because it was a special Buddhist day and one wears yellow in recognition of the sangha, or....well, you see, in Montreal there was this cult where everyone wears purple.... Thanks. Metta, Phil #86259 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 4:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Thanks for the reply: H: "It seems to me there is an awful lot of proto-science in what you call Dhamma..." Scott: Yes, I'm aware of your impressions here. You've said as much in past posts. You must prefer modern science. ;-) :-)) :) :-0 %-/ (I like this last goofy face!) H: "Why do you prefer the cittavitthi theory of psychological causation over all other theories and models?" Scott: I guess its because I think all other theories and models are just all other theories and models and, on this particular list, I respond to an interest in discussing cittavitthi. I could go to a Dhamma Is Proto-Science list and argue with everybody there about how it isn't, I suppose... :-) ;-) etc. But seriously, this is a rhetorical question perhaps? Its like asking, 'Why does one prefer anything over anything else?' Do you wish to discuss 'preference' from the perspective of 'the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition'? I find discussing science and psychology to be dead boring - please don't ask me why, though. Discussing that would be boring as well. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #86260 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 4:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Herman, We'll have to stop meeting like this ;-) :-)) Thanks for the reply: H: "You seem to be saying that right energy is knowable as right energy when it arises by conditions. But you also seem to be saying that when the conditions for right energy are there, it is never accompanied by the thought "I'm going to do this.......". Have I understood you correctly?" Scott: I don't know what I'm saying, Herman, I was just asking questions really - just discussing this - so its more like asking than declaring. Do you think that right energy is knowable as right energy? As for the latter part of your question, I don't think I'm wondering about whether the thought, 'I'm going to do this' *accompanies* 'right energy' but I am saying that I don't think that such a thought is a condition itself, if you know what I mean. In other words, I can't just think 'I'm going to do this' and be sure what conditioned such a thought. I figure that I can't just go and use the thought as evidence that I'm in 'conscious' control of what I do. The thought arises long after the energy would have, if it was a thought conditioned by the presence of right energy. I'm not sure if that clarifies things for you... Sincerely, Scott. #86261 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 12:46 am Subject: HAN (Re: [dsg] My eye situation) upasaka_howard DEAR HAN - I'M SO SORRY TO READ OF THIS EYE PROBLEM OF YOURS! YOU MENTION THAT IT IS VIPAKA. HAPPILY, IF I AM ANY JUDGE, YOU HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF FAVORABLE VIPAKA TO LOOK FORWARD TO. WITH MUCH RESPECT AND FONDNESS, HOWARD In a message dated 5/27/2008 3:20:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hantun1@... writes: Dear Sarah and Nina and All, I had yesterday checked with the Ophthalmologist, and found that I now have dry ARMD (Age-Related Macula Degeneration). I will have to curtail working with the computer looking at the monitor screen. I will not open the messages unless it is addressed to me in the Subject. I will have to stop my series on Patthaana. I am so sorry to let you down. Please do not be disturbed. It is age-related kaama vipaaka over which I have no control. Respectfully, Han #86262 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 4:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self scottduncan2 Dear colette, Thanks for the reply: c: "At least you didn't get all kinds of angry and defensive, trying to defend a position that is non-existant." Scott: At least not. c: "Ah, I originally thought it was my desert-like sarcasm, dry as dust, that you enjoyed about me and my view point (Point of View)..." Scott: Well, I do appreciate this about you... c: "...People that enjoy that aspect of me are generally older and disillusioned, sick & tired of the stupid games we play in our youth which waste so much valuable time of life, existance, and manifest soooooooo many, countless, OBSCURATIONS, bumps in the road, blockages, bottlenecks, etc. and then, in our old age, we are forced to deconstruct that stuff which was useless to begin with but we ignored it while we had the chance, that's very close to human nature..." Scott: Well, I sure see stuff differently now and am glad for the relative peace of having such a 'disillusionment'. colette: "..."'humourless' is a copout to just be an old goat neighing at the moon or eating paperwork that happens to be laying around without any monitors taking care of the paperwork, in triplecate, no less." Scott: Yeah, I have a sense of humour. Its just that no one else appreciates it. Ha Ha. Poor me. (See what I mean?) c: "'curmudgeon', how cute, is your name Ambrose Hawk? C'mon, sticks in the mud are everywhere when the chips are down. Little children pout in the corner with Jack, who may not be so little anymore, c'mon, who wants guests at a party or celebration to pout in a corner? Mingle, get with the flow. The water's great and this Stream of Consciousness is nice for 'tubing'. LOL" Scott: Thanks, colette! See you next run down the river. Sincerely, Scott. #86263 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 5:03 am Subject: Re: Why the kneeling to AS in that photo? And the yellow? kenhowardau Hi Phil, Nice of you to drop in - even if it was just for another negative rant against K Sujin. I was surprised that you were surprised by the kneeling in the photos. You live in Japan where there is a lot of bowing and ritualistic display of respect: does that make the Japanese cultists in your eyes? I know KS doesn't claim to be a teacher, but I don't know that she particularly *denies* being one. I think she lets people regard her as they please. And what if some of them are a bit too attached to the idea of having a teacher to venerate, and if they overdo the ritualistic displays? Would that be her fault? So you need to "erase the suspicion that her organisation is a cult" do you? Give me a break! :-) Oh, and I think there is an easy explanation for the yellow shirts. I don't remember what it was, but there were quite a few news reports about it here in Australia at the time. Something to do with the royal family, I think. Whatever it was it took place all over Thailand, not just at the Foundation. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Bangkok group > > Speaking of KS, as James is doing, there is something that keeps > bugging me that I should ask about. #86264 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 5:19 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply: S: "As I understand, sammappadhaana can refer to the 4 aspects of right effort in the development of the path or can be used in a more ordinary sense of right effort." Scott: Yeah, its a development thing. S: "If there is right understanding, viriya has to be 'samma'. The strength and so on will also depend on accumulations and other conditions." Scott: Okay, the fact that viriya arises when pa~n~naa does determines whether it is 'right energy' - is that it? S: "Particular kinds of viriya (whether kusala or akusala), strengthen according to accumulations, i.e by nat. decisive support condition."\ Scott: And this is a far cry from imagining that viriya is the same thing as someone just 'getting out there and doing something really diligently'. I take it that viriya functions first and foremost in the moment. S: "Let's put it another way. There cannot be Path-moment without samma-vayamo (right effort). It's an essential ingredient of the path. When it arises, it is due to right understanding and the other path factors as support." Scott: And it functions to 'energize' the Path-moment. S: Bodily movements (if conveying a meaning) are conditioned by citta (and supporting cetasikas, inc. viriya). There can be bodily movements conditioned by other causes of course. A complex can of worms here...." Scott: I was asking in particular reference to the notion of 'practise' and 'sitting' and all that. The very complexity of this should at least serve to suggest that the fact that one appears to be behaving very 'energetically', is not the same as viriya. S: "p.s rumour has it that you're about to start a particular sutta corner...I'll look forward to that. We'll be away for a month from Friday eve in the Swiss mountains, but we'll be taking a computer to our little chalet, so should be able to follow along." Scott: True! Some more prep time, so maybe within a month or so. Sincerely, Scott. #86265 From: han tun Date: Tue May 27, 2008 5:20 am Subject: HAN (Re: [dsg] My eye situation) hantun1 Dear Howard, -------------------- DEAR HAN - I'M SO SORRY TO READ OF THIS EYE PROBLEM OF YOURS! YOU MENTION THAT IT IS VIPAKA. HAPPILY, IF I AM ANY JUDGE, YOU HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF FAVORABLE VIPAKA TO LOOK FORWARD TO. WITH MUCH RESPECT AND FONDNESS, HOWARD -------------------- Han: Thank you very much, Howard. I will never forget your kindness. It gives me strength to bear. Respectfully, Han #86266 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 6:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance as "ignorance of condtionality" ( was Overview of KS 1: Background egberdina Hi Phil, 2008/5/27 Phil : > > Hi Herman > >> who renounces the world is very unnatural. It seems to me that greed, >> aversion and ignorance of conditionality are very natural, they are >> the order of the day And it would seem very counterproductive to go on >> a retreat in order to be natural. In fact, I would call a "natural" >> retreat a perversion of what it means to retreat. > > I think this is well said. The notion that we can go against the flow > of our defilements by being content to live in a natural way, without > striving, is odd. But a common one, at least at DSG. > > BTW, I was interested that you define delusion/ignorance > as "ignorance of conditionality." Is that a standard definition? I > guess it makes sense. I sometimes think about what delusion is and it > seems to be more in line, in its crudest form at least, with the > vipallasas. So much energy poured into pursuing things that are > ultimately empty of value at best or harmful at worst. > > So this "ignorance of conditionality" - a standard term? > Hi Phil, nice to see you around, I'm not sure if it is a standard definition, it seems unlikely that I would go along with a mainstream view :-) It is because of ignorance of conditionality that we fail to reach what we pursue, or fail to avoid what we do not want to reach. Not that there's anything wrong with temporary failure, it is the means whereby we can learn to understand conditionality better. But no amount of understanding of conditionality will render anything we achieve or fail to achieve of any intrinsic, or ultimate value as you say. Reason is in service of wanting and not-wanting, greed and aversion. In the absence of wanting or not-wanting, whether there is ignorance or understanding of conditionality makes no difference. Cheers Herman #86267 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 6:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) egberdina Hi Scott, 2008/5/27 Scott Duncan : > Dear Herman, > > Thanks for the reply: > > H: "It seems to me there is an awful lot of proto-science in what you > call Dhamma..." > > Scott: Yes, I'm aware of your impressions here. You've said as much > in past posts. You must prefer modern science. ;-) :-)) :) :-0 %-/ (I > like this last goofy face!) > > H: "Why do you prefer the cittavitthi theory of psychological > causation over all other theories and models?" > > Scott: I guess its because I think all other theories and models are > just all other theories and models and, on this particular list, I > respond to an interest in discussing cittavitthi. If you are inclined, would you discuss the following with me? IMO, the cittavitthi model pivots tacitly around the notion of "accumulation". Without it, it is a dead duck. What is accumulation in terms of cittas? What is accumulated? Where? How? No need to comment on the next bit if you are not inclined, but what I like about theories about embodied brains as causes of experience, is that a brain, as structure and function, can coherently account for interaction with the outside world and within itself, the accumulation of that interaction, and it's mechanisms. Oh, and it's located inside your skull :-) Cheers Herman #86268 From: "connie" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 6:53 am Subject: Perfections Corner (165) nichiconn Dear Friends, ch.5 continues: Viriya cetasika is classified among the cetasikas which are the "particulars", paki.n.nakaa. These cetasikas arise with many cittas but not with all *1. The six particulars are: applied thinking (vitakka), sustained thinking (vicaara), determination (adhimokkha), energy (viriya), enthusiasm or rapture (piiti), and wish-to-do or zeal (chanda). Viriya cetasika arises time and again, it accompanies many cittas in daily life, except sixteen rootless cittas, (ahetuka cittas *2), and it is the only cetasika among the "particulars" which can become a perfection. When viriya which is energy for kusala has been further developed it becomes the perfection of energy, viriya. In that case, viriya is the attendant of pa~n~naa and a condition for the realization of the four noble Truths. *1 Seven cetasikas, the "universals" , sabbacitta saadhaarana, arise with every citta. The six particulars accompany kusala cittas, akusala cittas, vipaakacittas and kiriyacittas (inoperative, neither cause nor result), but they do not accompany every citta. *2 Viriya cetasika does not accompany the sixteen ahetuka cittas which are: the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness, pa~nca-dvaaraavajjana-citta, the five pairs of sense-cognitions of seeing, etc., pa~nca-vi~n~naa.nas, the two types of receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta, the three types of investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta. Is viriya that arises now kusala or akusala? If it is akusala it is not a perfection. Viriya is among the particulars and thus it can accompany kusala citta or akusala citta, but most of the time it is likely to accompany the akusala citta which is rooted in lobha, attachment. Viriya accompanies akusala citta countless times, but instead of applying energy for akusala, we should endeavour to accumulate the perfection of energy, we should see its benefit. We read in the "Expositor" (Book I, Part IV, I, 121) about viriya: "... energy has exerting as characteristic, strengthening the conascent dhammas as function, and opposition to giving way (to discouragement) as manifestation. It has been said: 'He being agitated, makes a rational effort,' hence it has a sense of urgency, or the basic condition of making energy, as proximate cause." .. to be continued, connie #86269 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Thanks for the reply: H: "IMO, the cittavitthi model pivots tacitly around the notion of 'accumulation'. Without it, it is a dead duck. What is accumulation in terms of cittas? What is accumulated? Where? How?" Scott: To begin, would you agree that the workings of kamma represent a case of 'accumulation'? H: "...what I like about theories about embodied brains as causes of experience, is that a brain, as structure and function, can coherently account for interaction with the outside world and within itself, the accumulation of that interaction, and it's mechanisms..." Scott: I'm glad you find this interesting. I don't think its Dhamma. Just boring science. ;-) :) etc. H: "...Oh, and it's located inside your skull :-)" Scott: That's the nicest thing anyone's said of me for awhile - that I have a piece of meat inside my skull, that is, you know, instead of not - get it? - never mind... Sincerely, Scott. #86270 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. egberdina Hi Scott, 2008/5/27 Scott Duncan : > Dear Herman, > > We'll have to stop meeting like this ;-) :-)) Thanks for the reply: > > H: "You seem to be saying that right energy is knowable as right > energy when it arises by conditions. But you also seem to be saying > that when the conditions for right energy are there, it is never > accompanied by the thought "I'm going to do this.......". Have I > understood you correctly?" > > Scott: I don't know what I'm saying, Herman, I was just asking > questions really - just discussing this - so its more like asking than > declaring. Do you think that right energy is knowable as right energy? I don't think that the conditions for something, it's causes, are ever identical with their effect. And especially not in the relationship between the causes of experience, and the experience itself. Because experiences are not causes of other experiences. > > As for the latter part of your question, I don't think I'm wondering > about whether the thought, 'I'm going to do this' *accompanies* 'right > energy' but I am saying that I don't think that such a thought is a > condition itself, if you know what I mean. In other words, I can't > just think 'I'm going to do this' and be sure what conditioned such a > thought. I figure that I can't just go and use the thought as > evidence that I'm in 'conscious' control of what I do. The thought > arises long after the energy would have, if it was a thought > conditioned by the presence of right energy. > > I'm not sure if that clarifies things for you... Yes, that clarifies it. But it seems a bit self-defeating. If the thought arises in me "I want some chips", there is no room for doubt that the conditions for that wanting are there. If the thought "I'm going to do this" arises, that indicates the presence of the conditions for that thought. It seems to me that the quandary arises from not knowing what it is that is experienced, which would be the case in any case of novelty. And wouldn't the arising of Path moments be one gynormous case of novelty? What does Right Energy feel like? Cheers Herman #86271 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) egberdina Hi Scott, 2008/5/28 Scott Duncan : > Dear Herman, > > Thanks for the reply: > > H: "IMO, the cittavitthi model pivots tacitly around the notion of > 'accumulation'. Without it, it is a dead duck. What is accumulation in > terms of cittas? What is accumulated? Where? How?" > > Scott: To begin, would you agree that the workings of kamma represent > a case of 'accumulation'? In the absence of an actual mechanism, the "workings" of kamma are a fiction, IMO. Cheers Herman #86272 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:31 am Subject: Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) truth_aerator Dear Scott and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Dear Alex, > Regarding: > > A: "Can Anger be found outside of those physiological states?" > > Scott: Of course. Anger is naama, not ruupa. Dhamma is not brain > biochemistry. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. Let us examine the issue to the furthest core cause. You say that Anger is nama. Okay. What is the cause of Nama? Nama is 3 aggregates (vedana,sanna,sankara khanda). What is the cause, the origion of those 3 aggregates that make up Nama? Contact. (MN109) What is the cause of contact? In suttas such as MN148 we read: "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. " - mn148 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html "Cakkhunca paticca rupe ca uppajjati cakkhuvinnànam, tinnam sangati phasso " http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima3/148-chachakka-p.html eye + form = eyevinnana or eye-vinnana = (eye+form) eye + form + eyevinnana = contact so finally we get eye + form + (eye and form) = contact Notice that "eye", "form" are made of RUPA. The eye consciousness is a derived product, an epiphenomenon of a certain and functional arrangement of RUPA. Rupa is made of Great ELements (MahaBhuta). THus as you see that the higher level processess are made of lower level processess. Modern science confirms the Buddha teaching in this regard. Buddha was different from Hindus in a sense that he didn't teach that we are some manifestations of higher being like Atman. Buddha has taught Anatta because the personality can be reduced to lower level processes none of which are Atta. Anger, as a "nama", can ALSO be reduced to Rupa constituents arranged in a functional way. An ordinary person DOES feel "I exist, I have a Self" etc. Similiar here with anger. Anger feels as if it is real, like Atta delusion. So why do we consider mental state such as Anger (a composite process) to ultimately exist, yet refute Atta? Just because "Anger" (or some other mind state) seems to ultimately exist does NOT mean that it does truly exist. Best wishes, Alex #86273 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) truth_aerator Hi Scott and Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > H: "Why do you prefer the cittavitthi theory of psychological > causation over all other theories and models?" > > Scott: I guess its because I think all other theories and models are > just all other theories and models and, >>>>> But a lot of science is NOT a theory. The results are emperically tested, critiqued, modified as needed, etc etc. Without science you wouldn't even HAVE this computer, this internet site and be able to discuss Buddha's teaching. > > But seriously, this is a rhetorical question perhaps? Its like > asking, 'Why does one prefer anything over anything else?' Do you > wish to discuss 'preference' from the perspective of 'the Buddha's > teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original > record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further > elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition'? > Why does one cancels the other? Why not find a common ground? It shouldn't be "black & white", "only this or that" ! Best Wishes, Alex #86274 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the causes of 4 great elements + space & consciousness 5-6th? truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > --- On Sun, 25/5/08, Alex wrote: > A: >Does anyone know what is the origin of 4 great elements in the suttas? > ======= > S: The same as the origin of the 4 great elements in the Abhidhamma:-) > Citta, kamma, temperature and nutriment. > Citta or vinnana is produced by interaction of rupas (ex: MN148). So it itself isn't the initial cause of Rupa (or MahaBhuta). Same with Kamma. Temperature is Fire Element. Nutriment is earth element and/or derivatives of it. So Fire is caused by Fire (and other great elements, ie earth, air) See where I am going? Thank you for your reply Best Wishes, Alex #86275 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 4:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the causes of 4 great elements + space & consciousness 5-6... upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Sarah) - In a message dated 5/27/2008 11:03:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > --- On Sun, 25/5/08, Alex wrote: > A: >Does anyone know what is the origin of 4 great elements in the suttas? > ======= > S: The same as the origin of the 4 great elements in the Abhidhamma:-) > Citta, kamma, temperature and nutriment. > Citta or vinnana is produced by interaction of rupas (ex: MN148). So it itself isn't the initial cause of Rupa (or MahaBhuta). Same with Kamma. Temperature is Fire Element. Nutriment is earth element and/or derivatives of it. So Fire is caused by Fire (and other great elements, ie earth, air) See where I am going? Thank you for your reply Best Wishes, Alex ============================= And you could just as well say that consciousness is "caused" by consciousness. If a B arises from an A, and that A arises from a B, then, indirectly, an A arises from an A and a B from a B. It sounds like you are looking to find a first cause or, better said, a first category/type of cause. What makes you believe there is such? Interdependence doesn't imply identity. With metta, Howard #86276 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 4:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist TGrand458@... Hi Alex In a message dated 5/26/2008 12:22:58 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi TG, --- In _dhammastudygroup@dhammastudygdha_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , TGrand458@.., TG > > Hi Alex, Howard, and Herman > > TG: I feel I have overcome the (Buddhist) problem of the separation of nama and rupa by merely seeing them both as "forms of energy." >>>> Hmmm. I should investigate that. What exactly do you mean by Energy though? ........................................................ NEW TG: Energy is just any activity. Anything that can affect anything else. Movement or interaction. ...................................................... The thing is that Dualism has major philosophical weaknesses, and mere phenomenological view may not go deep enough analyzing the reality in order to grow disenchanted and disspassionate toward it. >>>>> The mental as an outgrowth of the physical and vice versa. >>>> How does mind affect the body? It is a big challenge over which philosophers were banging their heads and still do. ..................................................... NEW TG: Simply speaking. If we have a desire to do something, we move our bodies and move "external" phenomena. That's an example of mind moving and changing the physical. ....................................................... Only rupa can affect the rupa since only inertia and mass which is "matter" can move the matter. The mind states have physical basis and that physical (not mental) moves. ................................................................. NEW TG: If we think of the continuous flow of consciousness/feeling changes, that is mental moving. But again, if its just seen as "energy transformations" the two need not be thought of separately...except for purposes of analysis. ..................................................... I suspect that some mental states (if not all) such as Anger don't really exist as mental states. Rather it is hormonal, muscular and so on PHYSICAL process which solves the above problem. Of course conventionally speaking there is mental state called Anger just like there is a conventional "self". But both can be reduced to components just fine. >>> (But "mental" or "physical" is just "our idea." Phenomena are what they are and they don't care what we think about them. LOL) >>>> Great point. The debate in philosophy is this: Is our knowledge of the world separate from the world itself, or is it one and the same? ........................................................ NEW TG: Its only delusion that would think of it as separate IMO. There are just conditions. ......................................................................... Or in Buddhist paraphrase: Is the knowing of the rupa and rupa itself different or not? >>?> Its just changes of "energy forms" based on conditional > interactions. I feel that the features that appear, physical, mental, and > whatever they group or form, are just energies pushing and pulling each other. > And BTW, I arrived at these ideas through Buddhist studies, not scientific > studies...although I cannot claim absolutely no influence from science as its > part of our background growing up. > I hope this doesn't lead to imagining sentient clouds floating in empty space... ................................................................... NEW TG: Nope. Because the conditions have not garnered in the necessary configuration to form consciousness in clouds. TG OUT ................................................................. #86277 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the causes of 4 great elements + space & consciousness 5-6... TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/27/2008 9:03:31 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: S: The same as the origin of the 4 great elements in the Abhidhamma:-S > Citta, kamma, temperature and nutriment. ......................................... Hi Alex, Sarah The above conditions are the cause of the 4GE's in regards to the continuance of a human and presumably any sentient being. I.E., they act as causes for the 4GE's within that context only. Not as cause for the 4GE's in general. TG #86278 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 5:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the causes of 4 great elements + space & consciousness 5-6... TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/27/2008 9:12:47 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: And you could just as well say that consciousness is "caused" by consciousness. If a B arises from an A, and that A arises from a B, then, indirectly, an A arises from an A and a B from a B. It sounds like you are looking to find a first cause or, better said, a first category/type of cause. What makes you believe there is such? Interdependence doesn't imply identity. With metta, Howard .............................................. Hi Alex, Howard I see the 4GE's as fundamental and can see the predominance of one or other of them is due to the way they happen to be interacting. But going any further down the road of looking for a cause seems to be looking for the origin of the universe...and that can't be known. The problem of suffering, at hand, needs to be given the brainpower. TG #86279 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 9:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the causes of 4 great elements + space & consciousness 5-6... truth_aerator Hi Howard and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Alex (and Sarah) - > ============================= > And you could just as well say that consciousness is "caused" by > consciousness. If a B arises from an A, and that A arises from a B, then, indirectly, an A arises from an A and a B from a B. It sounds like you are looking to find a first cause or, better said, a first category/type of cause. What makes > you believe there is such? Interdependence doesn't imply identity. > > With metta, > Howard > It is not that simple. The 6 sensory vinnana is composite phenomenon, and I believe that. Rupa isn't caused by two not-rupa combining in a functional way. So in the same way we deny Atta's ultimate existence, in the same way 6 senses Vinnana shares the same fate. So in my opinion, Rupa is the most underlying reality from which other more complex interactions derive. Personally, and I may be wrong here, I think that materialism as a philosophical view of the world is more productive of disenchantment, dispassion and so on. Of course I do believe in Kamma, rebirth, Nibbana. The discussion is over the deepest interpretation of what the Buddha has said. I have traced and noticed that the MahaBhuta + Avijja is as far as samsaric analysis goes. Also this materialism is confirmed by Science today. Genes affecting behaviour is found. Anger, Lust, euphoria, mental illnesses are shown to have a physical basis. And you know, to me personally, knowing that things are just shadows and dust is more disenchanting and disspassion leading then thinking that "everything is mind-only" which is kinda sterile. But it may be just me. Remember, Yoniso Manasikaro. Best Wishes, A sack of: "head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine." - MN10 Called "Alex" #86280 From: "connie" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 9:27 am Subject: Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) nichiconn Dear Herman, Scott, H: "...what I like about theories about embodied brains as causes of experience, is that a brain, as structure and function, can coherently account for interaction with the outside world and within itself, the accumulation of that interaction, and it's mechanisms..." connie: as mental imagery, it's cool... brain as 'storehouse' & bunches of itty bitty brains popping up all over the body, wherever feeling happens by... and ugly enough to lead to speculations on cancer. H: "...Oh, and it's located inside your skull :-)" Scott: That's the nicest thing anyone's said of me for awhile - that I have a piece of meat inside my skull, that is, you know, instead of not - get it? - never mind... connie: not meat, actually. don't you remember every time you're snot-nosed, it's nasty brain stuff? [Brain] PPn VIII, 126. This is the lumps of marrow to be found inside the skull. As to colour, it is white, the colour of the flesh of a toadstool; it can also be said that it is the colour of turned milk that has not yet become curd. As to shape, it is the shape of its location. As to direction, it belongs to the upper direction. As to location, it is to be found inside the skull, like four lumps of dough put together to correspond with the [skull's] four sutured sections. As to delimitation, it is bounded by the skull's inner surface and by what appertains to brain ... [Snot] PPn VIII, 136. This is impurity that trickles out from the brain. As to colour, it is the colour of a young palmyra kernel. As to shape, it is the shape of its location. As to direction, it belongs to the upper direction. As to location, it is to be found filling the nostril cavities. And it is not always to be found stored there; but rather, just as though a man tied up curd in a lotus leaf, which he then pricked with a thorn underneath, and whey oozed out and dripped, so too, when beings weep or suffer a disturbance of elements produced by wrong food or temperature, then the brain inside the head turns into stale phlegm, and it oozes out and comes down by an opening in the palate, and it fills the nostrils and stays there or trickles out. And the meditator who discerns snot should discern it only as it is to be found filling the nostril cavities. As to delimitation, it is bounded by what appertains to snot ... peace, connie #86281 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 5:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the causes of 4 great elements + space & consciousness 5-6... TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/27/2008 10:10:19 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: A sack of: "head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine." - MN10 Called "Alex" .................................................... And a more dashing bag of filth we'll never encounter. ;-) TG #86282 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 9:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the causes of 4 great elements + space & consciousness 5-6... truth_aerator Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > In a message dated 5/27/2008 10:10:19 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > A sack of: > > "head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, > bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large > intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, > sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, > urine." - MN10 > > Called "Alex" > .................................................... > > And a more dashing bag of filth we'll never encounter. ;-) > TG > Hahahahah. This was truly hilarious, Yours truly, Bag of Filth #86283 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 10:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the causes of 4 great elements + space & consciousness 5-6... truth_aerator Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > .............................................. > > Hi Alex, Howard > > > I see the 4GE's as fundamental and can see the predominance of one or other > of them is due to the way they happen to be interacting. >>> That is what I was trying to say. IMHO from reading the suttas (I've finished reading all 4 Nikayas some time ago) it appears that GE & Avijja itself are as far as reductive analysis can be pushed. It is intersting >>> But going any further down the road of looking for a cause seems to be looking for the origin of the universe...and that can't be known. The problem of suffering, at hand, > needs to be given the brainpower. > > > TG > Of course. If there was an ultimate begining, then the question arises as to "how something came from nothing". And if something can only come from something, then we have an unexplainable beginingless loop. And what is the cause of that loop to start in the first place? Again something from nothing? However Scientists do have few things to say. Apparently there can be "quantum fluctuations" in the vaccum that CAN create big bang, and many of them. Of course this boggles the mind... And even with this, we see to have an eternity of finite universes. Or eternal cyclical model of the same universe blowing up, contracting and blowing up again for eternity.... Yeh, in any case it is outside of our current (or ever) capability to know. However we can be sure of GE and their combinations happening NOW. Best Wishes, Alex (who is just composed of GE functioning in complex ways) #86284 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 10:58 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Scott: And this is a far cry from imagining that viriya is the same > thing as someone just 'getting out there and doing something really > diligently'. I take it that viriya functions first and foremost in > the moment. > It is not imagined, it is Buddha's Dhamma. The "go with the flow and study books with us rather than doing those obsolete Hindu Ascetic" is a far cry from what Buddha has said. =========================================================== "And who is the individual who goes with the flow? There is the case where an individual indulges in sensual passions and does evil deeds. This is called the individual who goes with the flow. "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html Best Wishes, Alex #86285 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 12:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist truth_aerator Hi TG, Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Alex > How does mind affect the body? It is a big challenge over which > philosophers were banging their heads and still do. > > ..................................................... > > > NEW TG: Simply speaking. If we have a desire to do something, we move our bodies and move "external" phenomena. That's an example of mind moving and changing the physical. ....................................................... Not really an answer. If mind could move matter, then it would be like telekinesis. Furthermore, what exactly mediates between "consciousness" and matter (rupa) ? >>>>>>>>>> The debate in philosophy is this: Is our knowledge of the world separate from the world itself, or is it one and the same? > > ........................................................ > NEW TG: Its only delusion that would think of it as separate IMO. There are just conditions. > > .................................................................... ..... What? Are you saying that "knowledge" and "object, law, etc" are the same thing? So are you implying that if a person doesn't know about lets say Law Of Kamma, then s/he doesn't experience kammic results and so on? Can the Law of Kamma, exists whether one knows about it or not? Of course not. If a person never saw or heard of the Buddha and Bodh Gaya, etc does that mean that Buddha and Bodh Gaya do not exist? Best Wishes, Alex #86286 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 10:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and TG) - In a message dated 5/27/2008 3:43:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi TG, Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Alex > How does mind affect the body? It is a big challenge over which > philosophers were banging their heads and still do. > > ..................................................... > > > NEW TG: Simply speaking. If we have a desire to do something, we move our bodies and move "external" phenomena. That's an example of mind moving and changing the physical. ....................................................... Not really an answer. If mind could move matter, then it would be like telekinesis. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: So? It is the mental impulse to move the arm that *does* have physical effect - not the moving of a limb or our lungs or our mouth as the immediate effect, but physical nonetheless. It seems to me that you don't want to deny mental affecting physical, but, rather, to deny (the occurrence of) mentality entirely. To me, that is an odd position, for while I can understand the denial of matter (as opposed to material experience), I have trouble how one can. with a straight face, deny their very experiencing. ;-) --------------------------------------------------- Furthermore, what exactly mediates between "consciousness" and matter (rupa) ? ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ultimately? None - nothing mediating. But don't presume discrete steps from condition to effect either! -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> The debate in philosophy is this: Is our knowledge of the world separate from the world itself, or is it one and the same? > > ........................................................ > NEW TG: Its only delusion that would think of it as separate IMO. There are just conditions. > > .................................................................... ..... What? Are you saying that "knowledge" and "object, law, etc" are the same thing? So are you implying that if a person doesn't know about lets say Law Of Kamma, then s/he doesn't experience kammic results and so on? Can the Law of Kamma, exists whether one knows about it or not? Of course not. If a person never saw or heard of the Buddha and Bodh Gaya, etc does that mean that Buddha and Bodh Gaya do not exist? Best Wishes, Alex ========================= With metta, Howard #86287 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 3:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist truth_aerator Hi Howard, TG and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and TG) - > ....................................................... > > Not really an answer. If mind could move matter, then it would be > like telekinesis. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > So? It is the mental impulse to move the arm that *does* have physical effect - not the moving of a limb or our lungs or our mouth as the immediate effect, but physical nonetheless. It seems to me that you don't want to deny mental affecting physical, but, rather, to deny (the occurrence of) mentality entirely. To me, that is an odd position, for while I can understand the denial of matter (as opposed to material experience), I have trouble how one can. > with a straight face, deny their very experiencing. ;-) > --------------------------------------------------- But what exactly is this "mental impulse"? Science has found the physical basis for many mental states and mental characteristics, and is yet to find "Qualia". In the same way that Atta doesn't really exist, ultimately mental states too. They are compounded and conditioned by lower level processess and any reference to such a compounded "entity" is like reference to "Atta". In DO link, Nama can be reduced to rupa organized in a highly complex way to produce the "illusion" of mental states as being mental rather than dependently arisen physical epiphenomenon. Like a chariot which exists in name only, mental states (at least some of them) are in the same category. Anger, Lust, euphoria, sadness, spaciousness, etc can be reduced & analyzed. They can be reproduced physically and artificially thus showing that consciousness residing outside of material world is unneeded and using Occam's razor - OUT. I know this is tough to grasp and causes shock, but then so does Anatta. If we are truly consistent with Anatta, then we must also be consistent with NAMA. > > Furthermore, what exactly mediates between "consciousness" and matter > (rupa) ? > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ultimately? None - nothing mediating. But don't presume discrete steps from condition to effect either! > -------------------------------------------------- > If there is nothing mediating then how does the intention connects to the physical? Nothing is mediating! :) Best wishes, Alex #86288 From: "Tep" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 1:35 pm Subject: Panna As Indriya dhammanusarin Dear Sarah, - In a recent off-list email you wrote : >Sarah: If you rejoin, I have a little more to raise on panna as indriya... I am interested. Please proceed ! Tep === #86289 From: "colette" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 10:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self ksheri3 Hi Scott, You are certainly not as poor as I am! "Poor you", there's that side of the atta which grounds you as if you were a dancer on the cover graphics for Pink Floyd's album "A COLLECTION OF GREAT DANCE SONGS" -- the dancers are chained to the earth where the chains disappear into the ground never showing the locks or connections that hold the chains taught between the dancer and the what has been buried. ________________________________________________________ > c: "...People that enjoy that aspect of me are generally older and > disillusioned, sick & tired of the stupid games we play in our youth > which waste so much valuable time of life, existance, and manifest > soooooooo many, countless, OBSCURATIONS, bumps in the road, blockages, > bottlenecks, etc. and then, in our old age, we are forced to > deconstruct that stuff which was useless to begin with but we ignored > it while we had the chance, that's very close to human nature..." > ________________________________________________________ > Scott: Well, I sure see stuff differently now and am glad for the > relative peace of having such a 'disillusionment'. > colette: why did you do that? Why am I the one that has to go through this mine field since it seems you deliberately created the situation of "A BEFORE" and it's resultant "AFTER" concept? If you "see" and "you see differently" now, are you saying that you were previously blind or that you could not see? Is the "peace" a result of the additives to your life or did it exist prior to the additives? I won't bother with that disillusionment schtick. -------------------------------------- > > Scott: Yeah, I have a sense of humour. Its just that no one else > appreciates it. Ha Ha. Poor me. (See what I mean?) > colette: this is where the reply starts, since I was struck by your self-pity. Do you do this intentionally? I know I intentionally manifest the cognition of self-pity as a means of creating the right mix in the petri dishes that are in the laboratory, the exterior world, and I watch to see what festers and developes in each petri dish from the additive of my self-pity. Sorry girls & boys, I really believe this stuff and I really practice this stuff. It's the only thing I've ever had since April 10 or 11 1978. Society knows very well how they will not allow me to have anything else other than my beliefs. ------------------------------------ > Scott: Thanks, colette! See you next run down the river. > colette: ah, so do you WHITE WATER? or what was Bud Bundy's favorite rafting river "Kiss your white ass goodbye" was it? lol, you would've had to have seen that episode of MARRIED WITH CHILDREN to begin to see my pokes of fun at the psychology and the TRAGIC COMEDY which we all seem to be participating in. I'm sure our paths will cross again, sometime. toodles, colette #86290 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 11:37 am Subject: Indeed True! bhikkhu0 Friends: Indeed is this Samsara a Sea of Suffering! As the 4 Noble Truths always say: 1: This & such is Suffering! 2: Craving is the Cause of Suffering! 3: Ceasing of Craving is the End of Suffering! 4: The Noble 8-fold Way is the method to end Suffering! More on these core facts here: The 1st Noble Truth on Suffering: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_1st_Noble_Truth_on_Suffering.htm The 2nd Truth: The Cause of Pain: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_2nd_Noble_Truth_on_The_Cause_of_Sufferi\ ng.htm The 3rd Truth on Ceasing of Pain: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_3rd_Noble_Truth_on_The_Ceasing_of_Suffe\ ring.htm The 4th Truth on The Noble Way: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_4th_Noble_Truth_on_The_Way_to_Cease_Suf\ fering.htm Indeed True! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #86291 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 12:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 5/27/2008 6:06:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: If there is nothing mediating then how does the intention connects to the physical? Nothing is mediating! :) =============================== You want the mediation, but I don't have the felt need of it. That is not my perspective on this/that-conditionality. Also, you want there to be no mentality, and, instead have adopted a thoroughgoing materialism. Those are perfectly okay positions - they are exactly the positions of Western Scientism and Western "common sense," and more people in the West accept them than anything else, I believe. So, your position "rules"! ;-)) With metta, Howard #86292 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 5:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist egberdina Hi Howard, 2008/5/28 : > Hi, Alex (and TG) - > > Howard: > So? It is the mental impulse to move the arm that *does* have physical > effect - This is the limit of phenomenalism, it cannot go beyond experience to understand causation. No amount of introspection can ever reveal anything other than that action is preceded in time by an experience of an impulse to act. Still, a phenomenalist can understand that a conclusion that the experience of the impulse to act causes the act is not warranted. Cheers Herman #86293 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 5:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist egberdina Hi Howard, 2008/5/28 : > > > =============================== > You want the mediation, but I don't have the felt need of it. That is > not my perspective on this/that-conditionality. If you limit yourself to experience, then you can have no perspective on conditionality, other than that one experience is followed by another in time. Cheers Herman #86294 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 1:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/27/2008 4:07:15 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: In the same way that Atta doesn't really exist, ultimately mental states too. They are compounded and conditioned by lower level processess and any reference to such a compounded "entity" is like reference to "Atta". In DO link, Nama can be reduced to rupa organized in a highly complex way to produce the "illusion" of mental states as being mental rather than dependently arisen physical epiphenomenon. Like a chariot which exists in name only, mental states (at least some of them) are in the same category. .............................................. Hi Alex, Howard Mentality IS a formation...whatever it consists of. It arises and is aware of contacting conditions that are impinging upon its "domain." Like I've said...I see the whole of conditionality as just energies. Therefore, I don't have a materialistic or mentalistic perspective...its just conditions (energies) forming into different configurations based of forces of contacts and the configurations contacted. Mentality is an outcome of this process just as a rock is an outcome...mentality being more systematically complex. Defining mentality or physicality is just "our perspective" at work. The conditions don't give a damn. A "self" on the other hand doesn't arise at all... So cannot be compared to mentality in that way IMO. Since rupa is also a compound, we should not see it in an overly "substantial" way either. TG #86295 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 5:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist truth_aerator Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 5/27/2008 6:06:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > If there is nothing mediating then how does the intention connects to > the physical? Nothing is mediating! :) > > > =============================== > You want the mediation, but I don't have the felt need of it. >>> Well it leaves few things unexplained: How does intention has anything to do with with the physical. Well, this maybe no problem for 100% DSG (tm) determinism where consciousness is just there as a passive cognitive stream that cant do oe affect anything ("hey all doing is the delusion of the self"), but it IS a problem regarding all the Buddha's sayings about effort. >>>> That is not my perspective on this/that-conditionality. >>>> This/that conditionality is CRUCIAL and important. Nobody must ever deny it. However without explaining how this (lets say conscious intention) makes that (physical move), that leaves much to be explained as to relevence of positing this or that. >> Also, you want there to be no mentality, and, instead have adopted a thoroughgoing materialism. >>>> Mentality as in "Anatta". A composite phenomenon made of more basic elements to produce a higher order process. If you think about how Anatta is argued, if you remember the chariot metaphor and so on - I don't see how it is that hard to take another extra step and consider nama as being composite of more basic (but interacting in a complex way) not-conscious components which is... matter. Best wishes, Alex #86296 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 5:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Panna As Indriya egberdina Hi Tep, 2008/5/28 Tep : > Dear Sarah, - > > In a recent off-list email you wrote : > >>Sarah: If you rejoin, I have a little more to raise on panna as > indriya... > > I am interested. Please proceed ! > Welcome back, good friend :-) Cheers Herman #86297 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 1:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist TGrand458@... Hi Alex, Howard In a message dated 5/27/2008 1:43:13 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Not really an answer. If mind could move matter, then it would be like telekinesis. Furthermore, what exactly mediates between "consciousness" and matter (rupa) ? ................................................... NEWER TG: Physical move mental, mental moves physical. These "categories" are just our toys we play with. The conditions don't give a damn. Since I see it as just energies interacting, I only use these terms to communicate with you. I don't think there's a wit of difference between them as far as a "foundational structure" is concerned. Defining things as "separates" is useful in order to see conditionality in progress. Once accomplished, holding onto them as separates is detrimental. .................................................. >>>>>>>>>> The debate in philosophy is this: Is our knowledge of the world separate from the world itself, or is it one and the same? > > ............ .... .... .... .... ... > NEW TG: Its only delusion that would think of it as separate IMO. There are just conditions. > > ............ .... .... .... .... .... .... ..... What? Are you saying that "knowledge" and "object, law, etc" are the same thing? So are you implying that if a person doesn't know about lets say Law Of Kamma, then s/he doesn't experience kammic results and so on? Can the Law of Kamma, exists whether one knows about it or not? Of course not. If a person never saw or heard of the Buddha and Bodh Gaya, etc does that mean that Buddha and Bodh Gaya do not exist? ...................................................... NEWER TG: The above four statements do not reflect my views. I say what I say...but don't extrapolate what I say to say other things. Wherever you are going with the above is not where I was going. TG OUT #86298 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 1:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/27/2008 6:20:46 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: If you think about how Anatta is argued, if you remember the chariot metaphor and so on - I don't see how it is that hard to take another extra step and consider nama as being composite of more basic (but interacting in a complex way) not-conscious components which is... matter. Best wishes, Alex ................................. Hi Alex, Howard I think the chariot example for no-self is a somewhat banal example...even for the Suttas. Makes it easy to see on an elementary level. In fact, its this type of analogy that has confused our Abhidhammika friends. All the things they think are "ultimate realities" are actually composite structures...like the chariot. But I think it is the principle of causality, dependence, continuous change (impermanence), that are the root behind the fact of no-self. TG #86299 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 1:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/27/2008 8:16:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Howard, 2008/5/28 : > Hi, Alex (and TG) - > > Howard: > So? It is the mental impulse to move the arm that *does* have physical > effect - This is the limit of phenomenalism, it cannot go beyond experience to understand causation. No amount of introspection can ever reveal anything other than that action is preceded in time by an experience of an impulse to act. Still, a phenomenalist can understand that a conclusion that the experience of the impulse to act causes the act is not warranted. Cheers Herman ============================= This is exactly the this/that-conditionality taught by the Buddha. He is not a teacher of causality but of this/that-conditionality, which he taught as having the features of "objectivity" (tathataa) , "necessity" (avitathataa) , "invariability" (ana~n~nathataa) , and "conditionality" (idappaccayataa). With metta, Howard #86300 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 1:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 5/27/2008 8:20:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 5/27/2008 6:06:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > If there is nothing mediating then how does the intention connects to > the physical? Nothing is mediating! :) > > > =============================== > You want the mediation, but I don't have the felt need of it. >>> Well it leaves few things unexplained: How does intention has anything to do with with the physical. Well, this maybe no problem for 100% DSG (tm) determinism where consciousness is just there as a passive cognitive stream that cant do oe affect anything ("hey all doing is the delusion of the self"), but it IS a problem regarding all the Buddha's sayings about effort. >>>> That is not my perspective on this/that-conditionality. >>>> This/that conditionality is CRUCIAL and important. Nobody must ever deny it. However without explaining how this (lets say conscious intention) makes that (physical move), that leaves much to be explained as to relevence of positing this or that. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I think this quest for explanation is incoherent, for this is no criterion for what would constitute explanation. ----------------------------------------------- >> Also, you want there to be no mentality, and, instead have adopted a thoroughgoing materialism. >>>> Mentality as in "Anatta". A composite phenomenon made of more basic elements to produce a higher order process. If you think about how Anatta is argued, if you remember the chariot metaphor and so on - I don't see how it is that hard to take another extra step and consider nama as being composite of more basic (but interacting in a complex way) not-conscious components which is... matter. Best wishes, Alex ============================= With metta, Howard #86301 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 1:59 pm Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist upasaka_howard Hi again, Alex - In a message dated 5/27/2008 8:55:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: I think this quest for explanation is incoherent, for this is no criterion for what would constitute explanation. ====================== The second 'this' in the foregoing should be 'there'. With metta, Howard #86302 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 5:18 pm Subject: Re: My eye situation buddhatrue Hi Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Please do not be disturbed. It is age-related kaama vipaaka over which I have no control. James: Sorry to hear about your eye problem; however, it isn't true that you have absolutely no control over it. I am a firm believer in megadoses (6x or more of the RDA) of vitamins to cure diseases. Here is information I found about Macular Degeneration: A major National Eye Institute study (AREDS) has produced strong evidence that certain nutrients such as beta carotene (vitamin A) and vitamins C and E may help prevent or slow progression of dry macular degeneration. http://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/amd.htm In the meantime, since you have to stay away from the computer, you might want to read (or listen to) the book 'Tuesdays with Morrie'. I am reading it now and its great. It's a Buddhist perspective on aging and sickness. Metta, James #86303 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) egberdina Hi connie, 2008/5/28 connie : > Dear Herman, Scott, > > connie: not meat, actually. don't you remember every time you're snot-nosed, it's nasty brain stuff? > > [Brain] > PPn VIII, 126. This is the lumps of marrow to be found inside the skull. As to colour, it is white, the colour of the flesh of a toadstool; it can also be said that it is the colour of turned milk that has not yet become curd. As to shape, it is the shape of its location. As to direction, it belongs to the upper direction. As to location, it is to be found inside the skull, like four lumps of dough put together to correspond with the [skull's] four sutured sections. As to delimitation, it is bounded by the skull's inner surface and by what appertains to brain ... > > [Snot] > PPn VIII, 136. This is impurity that trickles out from the brain. As to colour, it is the colour of a young palmyra kernel. As to shape, it is the shape of its location. As to direction, it belongs to the upper direction. As to location, it is to be found filling the nostril cavities. And it is not always to be found stored there; but rather, just as though a man tied up curd in a lotus leaf, which he then pricked with a thorn underneath, and whey oozed out and dripped, so too, when beings weep or suffer a disturbance of elements produced by wrong food or temperature, then the brain inside the head turns into stale phlegm, and it oozes out and comes down by an opening in the palate, and it fills the nostrils and stays there or trickles out. And the meditator who discerns snot should discern it only as it is to be found filling the nostril cavities. As to delimitation, it is bounded by what appertains to snot ... > I don't know what PPn is, or who wrote it, but they were quite wrong, weren't they, about the causes of snot? It's good to see you quoting texts that mock ignorance of conditionality. Cheers Herman #86304 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 6:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist truth_aerator Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > Hi Alex, Howard > > > Mentality IS a formation...whatever it consists of. >>> And so is Atta which is why it is Anatta. >>>>>> It arises and is aware of contacting conditions that are impinging upon its "domain." >>>>> I question the exact implication of "aware", but conventionally we can use that term, just like we use "I, myself", conventionally. >>>> Like I've said...I see the whole of conditionality as just energies. Therefore, I don't > have a materialistic or mentalistic perspective... >>> Energy isn't outside of materialism. Materialism is now much more advanced than simply to posit bricks in space. What it stresses is that there ARE mind-independent or processes - regardless of whether they are percieved by anyone or not. >>>>>>>>>>>>> A "self" on the other hand doesn't arise at all... So cannot be compared to mentality in that way IMO. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A delusion of self "exists". In a same way there is a delusion of nama. The conscious "awareness" may be mostly simple images and sounds + instructions (physical on/off or something other code code) + all the hormones flooding in, etc etc. Smoke and mirrors... > Since rupa is also a compound, we should not see it in an overly > "substantial" way either. > > > TG > > Rupa is made of Rupa... So is Avijja, hence why they are so basic and underlying our experience. Best wishes, Alex #86305 From: han tun Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:02 pm Subject: To James Re: [dsg] My eye situation hantun1 Dear James, Thank you very much for your kind note. I will follow your advice about megadoses (6x or more of the RDA) of vitamins. I have downloaded A major National Eye Institute study (AREDS) which has produced strong evidence that certain nutrients such as beta carotene (vitamin A) and vitamins C and E may help prevent or slow progression of dry macular degeneration, and I find it very useful. http://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/amd.htm I will also try to get a copy of 'Tuesdays with Morrie'. Thank you very much once again. Respectfully, Han #86306 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:03 pm Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist truth_aerator Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi again, Alex - > > In a message dated 5/27/2008 8:55:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > Howard: > I think this quest for explanation is incoherent, for this is no > criterion for what would constitute explanation. > ====================== > The second 'this' in the foregoing should be 'there'. > > > With metta, > Howard > Criteria for truthful explanation? Something that matches observational data, something that explains things and can be used to make predictions on what will happen if you do this or that. And of course something that really nails the point of anatta and insubstentiality and revulsion into this protein existence. Best wishes, Alex #86307 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Regarding: H: "In the absence of an actual mechanism, the 'workings' of kamma are a fiction, IMO." Scott: You ask about accumulations, implying that you don't think that there is an 'actual mechanism' by which an action leads to a result. You suggest that without such a mechanism, kamma is 'a fiction', I see little we have left to discuss. Unless, of course, you would like to suggest some aspect of the Buddha's teaching you do accept and would like to consider together, of course. Sincerely, Scott. #86308 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Thanks for the reply: H: "I don't think that the conditions for something, it's causes, are ever identical with their effect. And especially not in the relationship between the causes of experience, and the experience itself. Because experiences are not causes of other experiences." Scott: How are you defining 'experiences' in the above? H: "Yes, that clarifies it. But it seems a bit self-defeating. If the thought arises in me "I want some chips", there is no room for doubt that the conditions for that wanting are there. If the thought "I'm going to do this" arises, that indicates the presence of the conditions for that thought. It seems to me that the quandary arises from not knowing what it is that is experienced, which would be the case in any case of novelty. And wouldn't the arising of Path moments be one gynormous case of novelty? What does Right Energy feel like?" Scott: How do you define 'right energy'? Do you think that there is 'such a thing'? Do you think that 'I'm going to do this' is evidence for the presence of viriya? Do you think that there are such things as 'Path moments'? Sincerely, Scott. #86309 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "But a lot of science is NOT a theory. The results are emperically tested, critiqued, modified as needed, etc etc. Without science you wouldn't even HAVE this computer, this internet site and be able to discuss Buddha's teaching." Scott: To be pithy, science schmience. Sincerely, Scott. #86310 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 6:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Overview of KS 2: Her Appeal/Charisma buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James (Ven P. & all), > > An interesting series.... I'm looking forward to the meat as well:- ). James: Glad you are enjoying it, but focus on each post individually. They are each "the meat". :-) > > --- On Tue, 27/5/08, buddhatrue wrote: > ======== > S: Yes, this was my reaction. Not only happy, but very relieved to appreciate that there really was no self that could control any dhammas to arise and that efforts and attachment to having certain dhammas arise were a development of the wrong path. James: Thank you for verifying what I wrote. Those who hear K. Sujin's teaching are very happy to hear that such a thing is possible: gaining wisdom with no effort whatsoever and no sacrifice whatsoever. Who wouldn't be happy to hear that? (Well, those who know it isn't true aren't happy to hear that- they scoff at such promises.) The happiness you feel Sarah comes from attachment, not wisdom. You are happy to think that you don't have to give anything up; happy that you don't have to give up your house, car, and sensual lifestyle. You don't have to give up your time surfing and traveling to meditate or attend retreats. You are happy that you believe you can have your cake and eat it too! Now, you say that you felt happy because you heard that there is no self; no self to do anything. Well, that is complete hogwash. No one is happy to hear that there is no self. People are upset to hear that there is no self. The Buddha's followers and non- followers were both upset and bothered to be told that there is no self- so the Buddha had to wait at just the right time to present that teaching. It is ridiculous to say that you felt happy upon hearing that there is no self. You are in denial about the true cause of your happiness. Sarah, you need to be honest with yourself about what really makes you happy about K. Sujin's teaching. Metta, James #86311 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thanks for the reply: > > A: "But a lot of science is NOT a theory. The results are emperically > tested, critiqued, modified as needed, etc etc. Without science you > wouldn't even HAVE this computer, this internet site and be able to > discuss Buddha's teaching." > > Scott: To be pithy, science schmience. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > If it weren't for the science, you wouldn't be able to read this, and probably wouldn't be able to study ABh Books and KS's unique teachings. #86312 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "The go with the flow and study books with us rather than doing those obsolete Hindu Ascetic' is a far cry from what Buddha has said." Scott: To what are you referring, Alex? Who says these things you are suggesting above? Sincerely, Scott. #86313 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "If it weren't for the science, you wouldn't be able to read this, and probably wouldn't be able to study ABh Books and KS's unique teachings." Scott: So what? ;-) Who cares about science? :-) I sure don't. :-0 Sincerely, Scott. #86314 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:28 pm Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "The go with the flow and study books with us rather than doing > those obsolete Hindu Ascetic' is a far cry from what Buddha has said." > > Scott: To what are you referring, Alex? Who says these things you are > suggesting above? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Take a guess. While studying (suttas) IS IMPORTANT, it is a good starting point but not the entire path. Most arahants didn't hear/know 1/100s of what we know today. They are awakened but not us. Guess why? To be brutally honest, Buddha's path is HARD. It requires lots of energy. Energy is mentioned even more than wisdom or samadhi. There are simply too many passages in the suttas implying the kind of effort needed. #86315 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self scottduncan2 Dear colette, Thanks for the reply: c: "...this is where the reply starts, since I was struck by your self-pity. Do you do this intentionally? I know I intentionally manifest the cognition of self-pity as a means of creating the right mix in the petri dishes that are in the laboratory, the exterior world, and I watch to see what festers and developes in each petri dish from the additive of my self-pity..." Scott: I think it was pathos, really - some sort of literary device. I'm okay. c: "I'm sure our paths will cross again, sometime." Scott: Thanks, colette. See you later. Sincerely, Scott. #86316 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:40 pm Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "...While studying...IS IMPORTANT, it is a good starting point but not the entire path..." Scott: Well, of course. Its just studying. Who ever said it was other than just studying? A: "To be brutally honest, Buddha's path is HARD. It requires lots of energy. Energy is mentioned even more than wisdom or samadhi. There are simply too many passages in the suttas implying the kind of effort needed." Scott: Viriya is a reality. No one dispute this. I'm trying to find your earlier reply and will see you on that one. Sincerely, Scott. #86317 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 3:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist TGrand458@... Hi Alex In a message dated 5/27/2008 7:50:58 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: A delusion of self "exists". In a same way there is a delusion of nama. ............................. TG: I'm not advanced enough to get this. There is no self period. I can't get onboard with the idea that "there is no mentality period." ............................................ The conscious "awareness" may be mostly simple images and sounds + instructions (physical on/off or something other code code) + all the hormones flooding in, etc etc. Smoke and mirrors... .............................................. TG: Yea, I think I get you here. See your other point in relation. But don't agree that consciousness is unique as "an illusion of something else." Because that "something else" (materialism if you wish) is just as illusory because it is also based on something other than itself. As I see it, you are still looking for an essence that is the basis for other states. I don't believe there is such an essence...even the 4GE's. I appreciate your diligence in looking for the "mechanics" of how phenomena are working and do think it is important to a degree. At any rate, we are close and somewhat splitting hairs IMO. The question is...does this or how does this get us any closer to overcoming suffering. ....................................................... > Since rupa is also a compound, we should not see it in an overly > "substantial" way either. > > > TG > > Rupa is made of Rupa... So is Avijja, hence why they are so basic and underlying our experience. ................................................ TG: Will this outlook help you overcome suffering? How would you apply it? The bag of filth approach, while not presenting nearly as deep an outlook, is possibly more effective. What do you think? TG OUT #86318 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:45 pm Subject: Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "...Just because "Anger" (or some other mind state) seems to ultimately exist does NOT mean that it does truly exist." Scott: I can't follow you here, Alex, sorry. You've made all this up. Sincerely, Scott. #86319 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 3:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/27/2008 8:14:05 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Scott: To be pithy, science schmience. Sincerely, Scott. ............................................. Hi Scott, Alex I looked up "science" in the dictionary...its almost exactly what the Buddha did.... "A branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws." There are all sorts of "science specializations." The Buddha's was concerning the issue of suffering. TG #86320 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) scottduncan2 Scott: To be pithy, science schmience. Dear TG, and Alex, TG: "I looked up "science" in the dictionary...its almost exactly what the Buddha did...." Scott: I'm glad to see you using a dictionary now, TG! ;-) :-)) "A branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws." There are all sorts of "science specializations." The Buddha's was concerning the issue of suffering." Scott: First science, now dictionaries. Next people will be making up their Very Own Theories to tie the list up with. ;-) :-o :-) Sincerely, Scott. #86321 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist truth_aerator Hi TG, \--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Alex > > > In a message dated 5/27/2008 7:50:58 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > A delusion of self "exists". In a same way there is a delusion of > nama. > ............................. > > TG: I'm not advanced enough to get this. There is no self period. I can't get onboard with the idea that "there is no mentality period." ><< There is the delusion and the feeling "I am, Self exists", it maybe preverbal but it IS there. Of course ultimately it is false hallucination. Same with Nama. > > ............................................ > > > > > The conscious "awareness" may be mostly simple images and sounds + > instructions (physical on/off or something other code code) + all the > hormones flooding in, etc etc. > > Smoke and mirrors... > > .............................................. > > > TG: Yea, I think I get you here. See your other point in relation. But don't agree that consciousness is unique as "an illusion of something else." Because that "something else" (materialism if you wish) is just as illusory because it is also based on something other than itself. > No. Matter is based on matter or material causes. It is much more basic than "mind". > > As I see it, you are still looking for an essence that is the basis for other states. I don't believe there is such an essence...even the 4GE's. > Most underlying and basic cause or condition. Something that remains after deepest analysis, and it is not self. > > I appreciate your diligence in looking for the "mechanics" of how phenomena are working and do think it is important to a degree. > Oh yeh, it IS important. Seeing causality and what conditons what is a must for progress/ > > At any rate, we are close and somewhat splitting hairs IMO. The question is...does this or how does this get us any closer to overcoming suffering. > > TG: Will this outlook help you overcome suffering? How would you apply it? The bag of filth approach, while not presenting nearly as deep an outlook, is possibly more effective. What do you think? > > > TG OUT Bag of filth approach can get one all the way to arahataship. Buddha has praised "mindfulness directed to the body". === Whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down, it flexes & stretches: this is the body's movement. Joined together with tendons & bones, plastered over with muscle & skin, hidden by complexion, the body isn't seen for what it is: filled with intestines, filled with stomach, with the lump of the liver, bladder, lungs, heart, kidneys, spleen, mucus, sweat, saliva, fat, blood, synovial fluid, bile, & oil. On top of that, in nine streams, filth is always flowing from it: from the eyes : eye secretions, from the ears : ear secretions, from the nose : mucus, from the mouth : now vomit, now phlegm, now bile. from the body : beads of sweat. And on top of that, its hollow head is filled with brains. The fool, beset by ignorance, thinks it beautiful. But when it lies dead, swollen, livid, cast away in a charnel ground, even relatives don't care for it. Dogs feed on it, jackals, wolves, & worms. Crows & vultures feed on it, along with any other animals there. Having heard the Awakened One's words, the discerning monk comprehends, for he sees it for what it is: "As this is, so is that. As that, so this." Within & without, he should let desire for the body fade away. With desire & passion faded away, the discerning monk arrives here: at the deathless, the calm, the undying state of Unbinding. This two-footed, filthy, evil-smelling, filled-with-various-carcasses, oozing-out-here-&-there body: Whoever would think, on the basis of a body like this, to exalt himself or disparage another: What is that if not blindness? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.11.than.html --- Best wishes, Filthy Bag "Alex" #86322 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 8:05 pm Subject: Re: Why the kneeling to AS in that photo? And the yellow? philofillet Hi Ken > Nice of you to drop in - even if it was just for another negative > rant against K Sujin. Too short for a rant. Just a sincere question. And I don't worry about it too much because it is a good check for any excessive attachment to her. I was surprised that you were surprised by the > kneeling in the photos. You live in Japan where there is a lot of > bowing and ritualistic display of respect: does that make the > Japanese cultists in your eyes? No, you missed my point - or I didn't express it clearly. If she is taken as a teacher, a respected teacher, of course she should be shown respect in a formal way. But it is this insistence that she is *not* a teacher that seems puzzling to me. It is this sense that there is some kind of duplicity going on - just a sense, not a sure thing - that makes it necessary for me to find out for sure. As you know, choosing one's Dhamma friends is stressd by the Buddha. I get in a weird situation here, because on one hand almost all of her students (including you) are so very friendly and helpful, and that is what being a friend is about, but on the other hand there are my nagging suspicions. I hope you don't mind if I try to iron them out. It is vitally important for my developing understanding of Dhamma, you see, and it really won't do any of you folks any harm. And it won't go on for long. As for this thread, I am already satisfied and will drop it after this. > I know KS doesn't claim to be a teacher, but I don't know that she > particularly *denies* being one. I think she lets people regard her > as they please. And what if some of them are a bit too attached to > the idea of having a teacher to venerate, and if they overdo the > ritualistic displays? Would that be her fault? No, I guess not. > So you need to "erase the suspicion that her organisation is a cult" > do you? Give me a break! :-) Yes, I do. The main suspiction has to do with the total and perfectly conistent refusal to admit that she is wrong on a point, or to question her opinion. As I mentionned a few months ago, in all those hours of listening to talks, I only once heard someone prolong a questioning, a doubting of her opinion. (That particular case, Sarah asking about which was more subtle, nama or rupa, was not so important and as Sarah has said AS was right there anyways.) But otherwise I have never heard doubt or disagreement maintained in any way by her students. This is the main concern, that there is a kind of ritualistic clinging to her word, a belief that by listening rather obsessively (as I did) to her talking, one will develop understanding by virtue of being in contact with one-of-perfect understanding. If she were to make an error (and I mean of view, not of a minor technical point from the texts, I heard her admit to that once) it would throw everything off. That is my nagging suspicion, Ken. At some point when I'm back for good (not now, especially with James already having a close look at her) I will open a thread and ask her students to tell if they have heard her say something that sounded wrong. If nobody can do that, I will have to continuing having these suspicions... As I said, Ken, this is rather selfish on my part but I know everyone here appreciates the importance of choosing good Dhamma friends. People like Sarah and Nina are so incredibly warm and helpful, and it is natural to be drawn towards them. But I have to be careful. The other thing, you see, is that I do know that AS says a lot of very, very helpful and insightful things so I do sincerely hope I can iron out my suspicions and get back to learning from her and her students. I don't write her off as a charlatan as James does. I think she's very, very insightful but flawed in her approach. I'm afraid some people are unwilling or unable to see the flaws and it kinda makes me squeamy.... > Oh, and I think there is an easy explanation for the yellow shirts. I > don't remember what it was, but there were quite a few news reports > about it here in Australia at the time. Something to do with the > royal family, I think. Whatever it was it took place all over > Thailand, not just at the Foundation. Yes, I did think there would be something to explain the yellow shirts! Thanks for you understanding, Ken and all. As I explained above, I really am not asking this out of peevishness. (Nor is James doing so in his ongoing investigation.) In my case, it's about finding those all important reliable Dhamma friends. I'm lacking them these days, and feel my Dhamma practice is lagging a bit for it... Metta, Phil #86323 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 8:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance as "ignorance of condtionality" ( was Overview of KS 1: Background philofillet Hi Herman > It is because of ignorance of conditionality that we fail to reach > what we pursue, or fail to avoid what we do not want to reach. Not > that there's anything wrong with temporary failure, it is the means > whereby we can learn to understand conditionality better. This is meaty and interesting. But even if we are *not* ignorant of conditionality, even if we accept conditionality, don't we still fail to reach what we puruse, or fail to avoid what we do not want to reach? Oh, this is too deep for right now. I'm going to think of it as I go jogging and get back to you later. > > But no amount of understanding of conditionality will render anything > we achieve or fail to achieve of any intrinsic, or ultimate value as > you say. Reason is in service of wanting and not-wanting, greed and > aversion. In the absence of wanting or not-wanting, whether there is > ignorance or understanding of conditionality makes no difference. oh, this is deep stuff and probably a lot of value in it. But I will stick to the first paragraph for my reflection. Metta, Phil #86324 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 5:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/27/2008 8:53:39 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: "A branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws." There are all sorts of "science specializations.There are all sorts of concerning the issue of suffering." Scott: First science, now dictionaries. Next people will be making up their Very Own Theories to tie the list up with. ;-) :-o :-) Sincerely, Scott. ................................. Yea Scott Not only that, but Abhidhamma was obviously an attempt to even deepen the science and detail that was contained in the Suttas. Of course they both over and under shot the mark here and there. Once in a while they nailed it. Personally, I prefer the accuracy of the Suttas over the more scientifically detailed but often "guess worked" Abhidhamma branch. But you feel free to copy the words of the commentaries and call those "your beliefs." That way you can follow their theories and be comforted that you are not erring with any independent thinking...and follow a proud tradition! ;-) Makes it easy on me though...I'll I have to do is open a book to see what you believe. :-) I guess that makes it easy on you too. :-o Oh good, I got all three faces in. LOL TG #86325 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 27, 2008 5:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist TGrand458@... Hi Alex In a message dated 5/27/2008 8:56:39 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: There is no self period. I can't get onboard with the idea that "there is no mentality period." ><< There is the delusion and the feeling "I am, Self exists", it maybe preverbal but it IS there. Of course ultimately it is false hallucination. .................................................. NEWEST TG: The point was not comparing the sense-of-self with mentality. The point was comparing a hypothetical "actual self" with mentality. It is that latter comparison that does not hold up. I agree that a "sense-of-self" arises...a delusion. .................................................... Same with Nama. > > ............ .... .... .... > > > > > The conscious "awareness" may be mostly simple images and sounds + > instructions (physical on/off or something other code code) + all the > hormones flooding in, etc etc. > > Smoke and mirrors... > > ............ .... .... .... .. > > > TG: Yea, I think I get you here. See your other point in relation. But don't agree that consciousness is unique as "an illusion of something else." Because that "something else" (materialism if you wish) is just as illusory because it is also based on something other than itself. > No. Matter is based on matter or material causes. It is much more basic than "mind". > > As I see it, you are still looking for an essence that is the basis for other states. I don't believe there is such an essence...even the 4GE's. > Most underlying and basic cause or condition. Something that remains after deepest analysis, and it is not self. > > I appreciate your diligence in looking for the "mechanics" of how phenomena are working and do think it is important to a degree. > Oh yeh, it IS important. Seeing causality and what conditons what is a must for progress/ .......................................................... NEWEST TG: I think causality/conditionality (I don't differentiate them like Howard does) is only necessary up to the point of being absolutely convinced that -- all conditions are dependent and have nothing of "their own," that all conditions are impermanent, and that attachment thereto brings suffering. The Buddha gave us enough info to get to that point. It is a fault in our own wisdom that we try to dig out more conditionality detail. I'm guilty too. So in my view, its the principles of conditionality we need to fully understand. Not every ultimate detail....which is probably impossible anyway. .......................................................... > > At any rate, we are close and somewhat splitting hairs IMO. The question is...does this or how does this get us any closer to overcoming suffering. > > TG: Will this outlook help you overcome suffering? How would you apply it? The bag of filth approach, while not presenting nearly as deep an outlook, is possibly more effective. What do you think? > > > TG OUT Bag of filth approach can get one all the way to arahataship. Buddha has praised "mindfulness directed to the body". ......................................................... NEWEST TG: Very Cool!!! TG OUT #86326 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Panna As Indriya sarahprocter... Dear Tep (Han & all), --- On Wed, 28/5/08, Tep wrote: >Sarah: If you rejoin, I have a little more to raise on panna as indriya... > Tep: I am interested. Please proceed ! ======= S: Thanks for picking this up. There were long discussions before about panna and pannindriya and it seemed that the terms were being used as synonyms. I wondered at the time whether panna could always be referred to as pannindriya as the book Han was quoting from (as I recall) seemed to suggest. Or can panna only be referred to as an indriya (faculty) when it has been developed. Do you (or others) have any ideas on this? Metta, Sarah ======== #86327 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 11:39 pm Subject: Re: Why the kneeling to AS in that photo? And the yellow? philofillet Hi again > > > So you need to "erase the suspicion that her organisation is a > cult" > > do you? Give me a break! :-) I just want to add that I don't have the slightest suspicion of nefarious intent on her part. Nor, of course, in her students. So I guess "cult" isn't the right word, since I guess it implies a leader with nefarious intent. I don't know what the right word is...but honestly, never mind. The bigger and probably more irritating thread will be when I seek to discover whether her students are capable of admitting moments of flawed understanding on her part, or not. Later, probably in the fall. Buy your tickets in advance! Should be thrilling! Metta, Phil #86328 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 11:49 pm Subject: Re: My eye situation philofillet Hello Han I join everyone wishing you well. I thought about you yesterday when reflecting on SN 36:9, the Sick Ward: "'There has arisen in me a pleasant (or unpleasant, or neutral) feeling. Now this is dependent, no independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on this very body. But this body is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen. So when the pleasant(etc.) feeling has arisen in a body that is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, how could it be permanent?' He dwells contemplating impermanence in the body and in pleasant (etc.) feeling, he dwells contemplating impermanence, vanishing, contemplating fading away, contemplating cessation, contemplating relinquishiment. As he dwells thus, the underlying tendency to lust( or aversion or delusion) in regard to the body and in regard to pleasant (or unpleasant or neutral) feeling is abandoned by him." I thought of you because of our exchange some weeks back about reflecing on impermance in daily life. I find the above sutta is very helpful for that. Metta, Phil http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.009.nypo.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah and Nina and All, > > I had yesterday checked with the Ophthalmologist, and found that I now have dry ARMD (Age-Related Macula Degeneration). #86329 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 11:51 pm Subject: Re: My eye situation philofillet Hello again Han and all I had it wrong. It is SN 36:7 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.007.than.html Metta, Phil #86330 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 11:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) egberdina Hi Scott, 2008/5/28 Scott Duncan : > Dear Herman, > > Regarding: > > H: "In the absence of an actual mechanism, the 'workings' of kamma are > a fiction, IMO." > > Scott: You ask about accumulations, implying that you don't think that > there is an 'actual mechanism' by which an action leads to a result. > You suggest that without such a mechanism, kamma is 'a fiction', I see > little we have left to discuss. > > Unless, of course, you would like to suggest some aspect of the > Buddha's teaching you do accept and would like to consider together, > of course. > Well, let's consider the Buddha's teaching on kamma, shall we? Do you accept them? A very significant thing he said about kamma was that it was imponderable. So, let me ask what it is about you that makes accumulation of kamma so self-evident. And if you are actually less than certain about how kamma works, do you know how all the other non-Buddhas come to understand it so penetratingly? Perhaps you could use the story of Angulimala to demonstrate accumulation as it occurs occur, and how accumulation led to his release. Perhaps you could also throw in your exposition of the following: AN 3:99 "There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment." And still I ask, what is the mechanism of accumulation? Cheers Herman #86331 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 28, 2008 12:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why the kneeling to AS in that photo? And the yellow? sarahprocter... Hi Phil, You keep a close tab on things:-). I'm glad Ken H responded. I was rather thinking Sukin, the photographer might:-) --- On Wed, 28/5/08, Phil wrote: From: Phil > Just a sincere question. And I don't worry about it too much because it is a good check for any excessive attachment to her. ==== S: I always like your questions. I believe the pic you were referring to was when friends were presenting flowers to KS on her birthday at the end of a particularly long discussion. It was their way of showing appreciation for all her help. Of course everyone has accumulations of lots of attachment as well, but I don't think there's any use in trying to 'second guess' others' motives, because at such times what is the citta ('our' citta)? It's bound to be akusala. We all have different ways of doing things, different ways of showing kindness or gratitude, different ways of attachment. If you knelt down to offer flowers to Naomi, it would probably not be a natural way for you (but she might like it!). KS always says that the best respect for the teachings (and what she appreciates most) is the right understanding of dhammas, but we like to show thanks in different ways. ===== > Phil: If she is taken as a teacher, a respected teacher, of course she should be shown respect in a formal way. But it is this insistence that she is *not* a teacher that seems puzzling to me. It is this sense that there is some kind of duplicity going on - just a sense, not a sure thing - that makes it necessary for me to find out for sure. ======= S: :-) Anyone can consider her in any way they like....it's all according to accumulations anyway. There was a little scene when we were last in Jetavana which you'd have enjoyed. Some Thai friends had laid down the mats under a large tree near the Buddha's kuti to prepare for an English discussion. I was sitting quietly on one side. On another side in the centre, the friends went to quite some trouble to lay out a beautiful circle of flowers for KS. It looked like a little decorated stage and I knew she wouldn't like it. She likes to keep things very simple and just sit amongst us. I just waited to see what would happen. When she came over, she saw the decorated place for her, frowned just a little and gestured that she wouldn't sit there. She then came over and sat next to me on the other side. Still, I appreciated the efforts of our friends, their gesture of respect, even if it was mixed with attachment for all I know. This sort of thing goes on all the time. Another time, she might quietly take the seat so that people won't be disappointed. it always depends on the accumulations at any given moment. Better not to judge, but understand our 'own' mental states. ============ >Phil: Yes, I do. The main suspiction has to do with the total and perfectly conistent refusal to admit that she is wrong on a point, or to question her opinion. ============== S: Some of us have been questioning her on every aspect of the Dhamma for decades as you know. We've all come from different backgrounds, different belief systems. Do you think there is any one of us who hasn't gone through a lot of rigorous questioning? Nina was a practising Catholic, writing published articles on it as I recall. Everyone else has their own story. I should think I've asked KS a million questions, so I laugh at any suggestion of devotional blind acceptance:-). ========= >Phil: >The other thing, you see, is that I do know that AS says a lot of very, very helpful and insightful things so I do sincerely hope I can iron out my suspicions and get back to learning from her and her students. I don't write her off as a charlatan as James does. I think she's very, very insightful but flawed in her approach. I'm afraid some people are unwilling or unable to see the flaws and it kinda makes me squeamy.... ========== S: Perhaps what you see as 'flaws' some of us see as right view. This doesn't mean that anyone thinks she's perfect. In any case, much better to discuss the Dhamma, rather than personalities. You talk about looking for the right friends etc, but I think it's much more important to discuss realities. ============ > Phil: Yes, I did think there would be something to explain the yellow shirts! ============= S: It seemed that all of Bangkok was wearing yellow for the year of the King's birthday....They all had a year off having to make dress decisions in the morning:-) ============= >Phil: In my case, it's about finding those all important reliable Dhamma friends. I'm lacking them these days, and feel my Dhamma practice is lagging a bit for it... ================ S: I don't know, but it sounds like expectations about people which are bound to lead to disappointment. We really have to look to the Dhamma as refuge as Scott always reminds us... Metta, Sarah ============ #86332 From: "colette" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 11:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist ksheri3 Hi Boys, Interesting debate on Anatta being part of Mentality, and other things I'll try to note below. Anatta may be nothing more than a re-examination of the nama-rupa paradigm we're all working with simply because everything, society from the get-go, begining, has placed an Atta or Atman within the concept of nama-rupa. Since the conditioning procedure was based upon the concept of an Atta and/or Atman, then Anatta is a very difficult position to cognize and then rationalize. This is a very good point for meditation since, theoretically, I should be able to, off the top of my head, define the Ultimate Truth clearly without hesitation. Since the milk is being churned quite effectively here (you two are Dakinis aren't you, ;)) I'm finding that as I concentrate and attempt to bring forth a definition I'm stunned by the amount of material that I haven't even come close to covering nor have I even attempted to unearth the material. I feel, for instance, tonight, if I go and find some Madhyamika materials that I was very proud of myself for finally finishing reading and, after the time it took me to read/comprehend the material, it made sense, I could cognize it. I know one paper in particular that took me more than six months to plod through. Now, concerning the debate here. After I finished reading the post I thought that people, humans, may have possibly misinterpreted and thus went on an off-ramp a long time ago by not realizing that MENTALITY could possibly be RUPA and not NAMA, as well as CONSCIOUSNESS BEING TANGIBLE. > > If there is nothing mediating then how does the intention connects > to > > the physical? colette: glad you asked. We enter my theories on the electro-magnetic fields created by the mind/body and those electro-magnetic fields associated with an act. In order for my theories to work, I guess, then the intent, when an act is initiated, is part of the electrical charge, which also helps that unseen and unfelt THING that floats around out there in the ether, it helps that thing find a home or body, eventually to connect with that possesses the correct electro- magnetic signature to attract the original homeless force. Doesn't this sound a bit like a good thought on how karma continually finds the wrong people some times? This is very good material and debate. I'm gonna think about this as well. ---------------------------------------- > Well it leaves few things unexplained: How does intention has > anything to do with with the physical. colette: intention is part of the constituent parts built into the complex that is projected outwardly into that which is EXTERIOR and EXOTERIC. -------------------------------------- Well, this maybe no problem > for 100% DSG (tm) determinism where consciousness is just there as a > passive cognitive stream that cant do oe affect anything colette: that is one sad and sorry group of people that believe that consciousness is passive. -------------------------------- ("hey all > doing is the delusion of the self"), but it IS a problem regarding > all the Buddha's sayings about effort. > colette: maybe Buddha didn't have enough time or the right audience to get the needed material down in print. My understanding is that all effort has an intention built into it. The Buddha's course of action was to proclaim the powers of meditation which are to be used to purify the mind and thus not stain any effort. > This/that conditionality is CRUCIAL and important. Nobody must ever > deny it. However without explaining how this (lets say conscious > intention) makes that (physical move), colette: ouch, what rock did you crawl out from under? <...> I think that you are suggesting that a single person can manifest the power of the mind, transfer it to consciousness, then project it outward to make something physical move. Since you spontaneously arose, probably like a yeast infection or something kept in a cool dry place, out of sight as well, then, I guess, you probably are having fun playing with neophytes that haven't a clue. I, on the other hand, enjoy a good laugh. A single consciousness probably can, over time, years of training and practice, probably could make something physical move, for instance bending a spoon through concentration. -------------------------------------- that leaves much to be > explained as to relevence of positing this or that. colette: no, don't do that! I've worked so hard and for about four years getting it through to certain people that sitting on their hands has very little benefit for their existance. If they do not posit this or that then nothing is posited and we are left with a tussle between the materialists and their HAVES clearly defeating the HAVE NOTS. The biggest fear that a HAVE has is that they are wrong. If they are wrong about one thing then it is possible that they are wrong about two things, then three things, and before ya know it THE POWERS THAT BE are seen as nothing more than criminals milking a system. ------------------------------------------ Sorry gotta go. Thanx for the thoughts and the good clean fun. toodles, colette #86333 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Overview of KS 2: Her Appeal/Charisma egberdina Hi James, 2008/5/28 buddhatrue : > Hi Sarah, > > James: Thank you for verifying what I wrote. Those who hear K. > Sujin's teaching are very happy to hear that such a thing is > possible: gaining wisdom with no effort whatsoever and no sacrifice > whatsoever. Who wouldn't be happy to hear that? (Well, those who > know it isn't true aren't happy to hear that- they scoff at such > promises.) The happiness you feel Sarah comes from attachment, not > wisdom. You are happy to think that you don't have to give anything > up; happy that you don't have to give up your house, car, and > sensual lifestyle. You don't have to give up your time surfing and > traveling to meditate or attend retreats. You are happy that you > believe you can have your cake and eat it too! > > Now, you say that you felt happy because you heard that there is no > self; no self to do anything. Well, that is complete hogwash. No > one is happy to hear that there is no self. People are upset to > hear that there is no self. The Buddha's followers and non- > followers were both upset and bothered to be told that there is no > self- so the Buddha had to wait at just the right time to present > that teaching. It is ridiculous to say that you felt happy upon > hearing that there is no self. You are in denial about the true > cause of your happiness. Sarah, you need to be honest with yourself > about what really makes you happy about K. Sujin's teaching. > Good to see you around James. I think you are writing well. Cheers Herman #86334 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 28, 2008 12:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why the kneeling to AS in that photo? And the yellow? sarahprocter... Hi Phil again, --- On Wed, 28/5/08, Phil wrote: >Phil: The bigger and probably more irritating thread will be when I seek to discover whether her students are capable of admitting moments of flawed understanding on her part, or not. ========== S: You point out the flawed understanding and I'll agree with you if I think you are correct and the texts (yes, Tipitaka and commentaries) support your view. So far, you haven't come up with anything along these lines, as I recall. As for those irritations.....well, they just come down to attachment don't they? Always good to hear from you, Phil. Look forward to more pot-stirring posts:-) Metta. Sarah p.s did you get to Canada? How's your family, your mother? ======= #86335 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 12:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan egberdina Hi Sarah and James, 2008/5/24 sarahprocterabbott : > Hi Mike, > .... > S: I think I had suggested that right concentration (rather than > ekaggataa in general) is unlikely to appear and that it was the wrong > concentration which was more readily apparent. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s I listened to a recording yesterday in which KS was > using 'appear' to refer to what is experienced.....so it does depend > on the context or occasion what is meant:-). > ============ The message from the above: the standard of truth is whatever KS reckons it to be. It is little snippets like this that leave me in no doubt that James is on the right track with his latest series. Cheers Herman #86336 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 1:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. egberdina Hi Scott, 2008/5/28 Scott Duncan : > > Dear Herman, > > Thanks for the reply: > > H: "I don't think that the conditions for something, it's causes, are > ever identical with their effect. And especially not in the > relationship between the causes of experience, and the experience > itself. Because experiences are not causes of other experiences." > > Scott: How are you defining 'experiences' in the above? As something that is seen, hear, felt, tasted etc. > H: "Yes, that clarifies it. But it seems a bit self-defeating. If the > thought arises in me "I want some chips", there is no room for doubt > that the conditions for that wanting are there. If the thought "I'm > going to do this" arises, that indicates the presence of the > conditions for that thought. It seems to me that the quandary arises > from not knowing what it is that is experienced, which would be the > case in any case of novelty. And wouldn't the arising of Path moments > be one gynormous case of novelty? What does Right Energy feel like?" > > Scott: How do you define 'right energy'? Do you think that there is > 'such a thing'? Do you think that 'I'm going to do this' is evidence > for the presence of viriya? Do you think that there are such things > as 'Path moments'? One of the interesting things about experience is that it is not definable. Probably because experience is not verbal, and all definition is in terms of something other than what is being defined. So I would not think that right energy would be definable, as such. The way people learn which words are used to refer to non-definable experiences is by being judged to be having certain experiences and being told: you felt x, y z. For example, when a person is being instructed to silence their discursive mind, at some point of time the instructor may say, if your body is being flooded by a particular pleasant sensation, that is piti. As to your questions about right effort, I haven't studied what other people refer to when they use the word. So I don't know. With regards to Path moments, if they occur, it must be possible to differentiate them from other things that are experienced. So how is a Path moment known? What qualities do they have? Cheers Herman #86337 From: "Phil" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 2:02 am Subject: Re: Why the kneeling to AS in that photo? And the yellow? philofillet Hi Sarah Thanks for the post and anecdotes. I will (probably) read them later! > S: Some of us have been questioning her on every aspect of the Dhamma for decades as you know. We've all come from different backgrounds, different belief systems. Do you think there is any one of us who hasn't gone through > a lot of rigorous questioning? Nina was a practising Catholic, writing published articles on it as I recall. Everyone else has their own story. > > I should think I've asked KS a million questions, so I laugh at any suggestion of devotional blind acceptance:-). There is questioning as in asking questions and questioning as in suggesting that you think a person's opinion/view might be incorrect. I heard tons of the former, of course, when I listened to all those talks, but just about zero of that latter. Honestly, I can only recall that one exchange you had with her. I am only honestly saying from what I recall of the talks. (I don't include Christine, because she was often bringing in challenging views, but usually dropped them quite quickly - and wisely. Oh yes, there were occasions, several occasions, on which women, including Christine, questioned AS's denial of the possibility of a female sangha, but of course AS was correct there if one looks from the Pali canon. OK, it was nice to have a little taste of Dhamma talk. Back to the baseball. I am utterly blissed out today because the top hitting prospect in all baseball, Jay Bruce of the Cincinnati Reds, was callled up from the minor leagues, and I snagged him for my fantasy team and he made a stunning debut today, 3 for 3, with 2 runs scored, 2 RBI, and a stolen base. Can you believe it Sarah??? Amazing. But you know, tomorrow he might go 0 for 5, right? All gain and loss, worldly conditions....but I think he's going to go 4 for 5! ahem metta, phil #86338 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 28, 2008 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why the kneeling to AS in that photo? And the yellow? sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- On Wed, 28/5/08, Phil wrote: Phil:> There is questioning as in asking questions and questioning as in suggesting that you think a person's opinion/view might be incorrect. ======= S: That's right. Just like here - those who think someone's opinion/view is incorrect, question them on that and those who basically agree, but wish to clarify points, question them on those. No rule - as we've always said, you, James or anyone else would be most welcome to do the former. Some start in disagreement and end up in agreement. Others start in disagreement and end in disagreement:-) All down to accumulations... ========= Phil: > OK, it was nice to have a little taste of Dhamma talk. Back to the baseball. <....> All gain and loss, worldly conditions.. ..but I think he's going to go 4 for 5! ========= S: Daily life and at least it's not porn! Hope he goes 4 for 5 (whatever that means!) for your sake:-). Fun chatting. We go away Fri nite, so I'm trying not to get distracted from essential chores like packing, but accumulations being what they are.... Metta, Sarah ========= #86339 From: han tun Date: Wed May 28, 2008 3:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My eye situation hantun1 Dear Phil, Thank you very much for quoting a passage from SN 36.7 Gelañña Sutta. I also find the sutta very useful considering my present condition. The moment we have the five aggregates we have the pile of suffering. It reminds me of SN 22.22 Bhara Sutta The Burden http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.022.than.html A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person. Taking up the burden in the world is stressful. Casting off the burden is bliss. Having cast off the heavy burden and not taking on another, pulling up craving, along with its root, one is free from hunger, totally unbound. Bhaaraa bhave pa~ncakkhandhaa bhaarahaaro ca puggalo, Bhaaraadaanam dukham loke bhaaranikkhepanam sukham. Nikkhipitvaa garum bhaaram a~n~nam bhaaram anaadiya, Samiilam ta.nham mabbuyha nicchaato parinibbuto. Laying down the burden by an Arahant is parinibbaana. For me, even if I lay down my burden of this life, I will have another burden in the lives to come in the endless flow of samsara! Respectfully, Han #86340 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed May 28, 2008 3:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [ dsg] Re: Kamma, was Death. jonoabb Hi Herman > But I wonder whether it is important for you to reconcile this view of > actions committed by a person with the teachings of anatta, which > would deny that a person acts? And if you do believe it is important > to reconcile those views, how do you do it? > Put in those terms ('actions committed by a person' vs. 'denial that a person acts') there is the appearance of an inconsistency. But these conventional formulations, while convenient for some purposes (such as our earlier discusssion), are not precise renderings of the teaching on kamma and anatta. The teaching on kamma says that deeds bring results. More precisely, it says that the mental factor of 'intention' conditions the experiencing of pleasant and unpleasant objects through the 5 sense-doors, and worldly gains in general, within the same stream of consciousness. The teaching on anatta says that anatta is a characteristic of every dhamma. In the teaching on anatta, 'dhamma' includes the dhammas mentioned in connection with the teaching on kamma, namely, the mental factor of 'intention' and the consciousness that is the experiencing of an objects through any of the 5 sense-doors. Understood this way, I don't see any inconsistency to be reconciled. Do you? Jon #86341 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed May 28, 2008 3:24 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Overview of KS 1: Background jonoabb Hi Alex > While Buddha didn't reference using word "Pitaka" he did mention > Sutta and Vinaya. > Could you give me an example of the kind of reference to 'Sutta' (as in Sutta Pitaka) you have in mind here? Thanks. > Did the Buddha anywhere state that he taught: > Dhammasangani, Vibhanga, Dhatukatha, Puggalapannati, Katthavatthu, > Yamaka, Patthana ? > The same comment applies here as applied to your earlier question about the Abhidhamma Pitaka. The classification of each of the Pitakas into their constituent parts happened after the Buddha's death, so obviously there could be no reference by the Buddha himself to the 7 books of the Abhidhamma, just as there could be no reference to the various books of the Sutta Pitaka (MN, AN, SN, KN, etc). > Or even more specific: > > Did the Buddha state anywhere in the suttas that there are 89 or 121 > states of citta? 52 Cetasikas? 28 Rupas? 4 Ultimate realities being > (Citta, Cetasika, Rupa, Nibbana)? > Perhaps not. But that in itself doesn't prove anything. Much of what is in the AP is mentioned in the suttas: 5 khandhas, 18 elements, 12 ayatanas, 4 Noble Truths, Noble Eightfold Path, and so on. Jon #86342 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 28, 2008 12:20 am Subject: Re: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't ... upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 5/27/2008 10:03:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi again, Alex - > > In a message dated 5/27/2008 8:55:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > Howard: > I think this quest for explanation is incoherent, for this is no > criterion for what would constitute explanation. > ====================== > The second 'this' in the foregoing should be 'there'. > > > With metta, > Howard > Criteria for truthful explanation? Something that matches observational data, something that explains things and can be used to make predictions on what will happen if you do this or that. And of course something that really nails the point of anatta and insubstentiality and revulsion into this protein existence. Best wishes, Alex ================================= I'm talking about a criterion for adequate explanation of the what and how of "causality". The Buddha said merely that when a certain types of conditions have arisen, then objectively and with regularity, a certain other type of phenomenon arises. When there is this, there will be that. I have seen no coherent criterion provided for what more there should be. So called causational explanation in reality consists of nothing more than statements of the sort "Z arose because of conditions W, X, and Y; and Y arose because of conditions T, U, and V; etc, etc - with the lists continuing until the listerner is satisfied. With metta, Howard #86343 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 28, 2008 12:54 am Subject: Brief: What We Know Versus What We Infer upasaka_howard Hi, Alex, TG, Herman, and all - It seems to me that it is important to distinguish what we know in the sense of directly experience from what we infer. In the matter of materialistic reductionism (and also the mind-stuff reductionism of idealism), each presuming a world of "substance" beyond experience and that underlies and is the basis of experience, that is solely inferred. What is directly given includes all aspects of experience, some being material (rupic), and some mental (namic). All that we can rely on with certainty, it seems to me, is experiential content as opposed to inferential theory. As I see the matter, the Buddha adopted that radical empiricist perspective when he said "ehipassiko," and when he taught the Kalaka Sutta and the Bahiya Sutta. With metta, Howard P. S. I put this forward just to publicly clarify my view, and not for purposes of debate. I've put it out for your consideration. Accepting it, rejecting it, or being neutral about it is solely your concern. #86344 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 5:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Thanks for the reply: H: "Well, let's consider the Buddha's teaching on kamma, shall we? Do you accept them?" Scott: Yes. I gather that you don't, which is fine. H: "A very significant thing he said about kamma was that it was imponderable..." Scott: True. I was recalling the same thing. H: "So, let me ask what it is about you that makes accumulation of kamma so self-evident. And if you are actually less than certain about how kamma works, do you know how all the other non-Buddhas come to understand it so penetratingly?..." Scott: To what end would a discussion with you on kamma be? If you don't buy it, why should it matter? I have no interest in attempting to change your mind. It seems as if the subject of accumulations is brought up, not to consider it and clarify it, but rather simply as something that, as I imagine your view, is impossible to prove and therefore something only to be accepted or not. And, I surmise further, that you don't accept it and for sure don't prefer to accept anything that is not provable by experience, and for sure not on the basis of 'authority'. I'd enjoy discussing something that we both wish to clarify further. I rarely keep up with you in discussion, given the intricate sophistry of your arguments ;-), but at least the boredom factor is minimized. I just have no time to go on with you if the aim is mainly that of expressing skepticism. Although fun for awhile, discussions with someone whose aim is to play cat-and-mouse, reduce life's boredom, and simply be disputatious, are tedious to me. I'm not saying out and out that this is your aim, but it might be. I don't mind either. I can just choose to not discuss with you, as you can with me. It is clear that this is the aim of some on this list. This is fine too. It takes divergent view to discuss. I'm not into participating very much in this fashion. I'm sure it happens on all lists, but I fail to appreciate the behaviour of posting points of view that, while perfectly legitimate, run so obviously and blatantly counter to the stated aim of a given list. I understand this to be, whatever the aim, a malicious enterprise. I would see little point to posting maliciously, say, on some christian web-site, telling them all how deeply and irrevocably their heads are inserted rectally, debunking Jesus and what not. And yet this seems to occur everwhere, and the equivalent goes on here every day. I prefer to discuss only to understand, although I can play the game, take a hit, get someone's number and get them later as well as well as the next guy. One even sees waves of this, where sometimes the list is quiet, then, as is the case these days, there is a breakout of what I consider to be, at worst, maliciously destructive, or at least, merely annoyingly preachy posts, a flurry of pointless counter-discussions, but precious little of the quiet thoughtful and peaceful sort of clarifying discussion I like. I'm assuming its a normal part of list interactions. They even have a term for someone who interacts simply to mess with a given list: a Troll. Do you have any thoughts about the dynamics of this list in relation to opposing views and the way in which one is to present them or discuss them? What do you think of the presentation of views on a list having a particularly clear stated aim of discussing, and in particular, understanding the Buddha's teachings, views that so blatantly at some times, and so very subtly at other times, proceed to state that these teachings are wrong or primitive or ill-conceived or whatever? How do you see a discussion between two such divergent discussants as you and I proceeding? How can we both gain from such a discussion? H: "...And still I ask, what is the mechanism of accumulation?" Scott: Am I wrong to read you to be wanting simply to make the point that talk of accumulations is nonsense? And that it is so because no mechanism can be proven to exist? Whatever the view, why should I try to convince you? Why should you seek to deconstruct it? I agree that kamma, for example, which runs on accumulations so to speak, is said to be imponderable. Is there anything the Buddha taught, that you might buy, that we could try to understand together? Sincerely, Scott. #86345 From: "connie" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 5:19 am Subject: Perfections Corner (166) nichiconn Dear Friends, ch. 5 continues: We can see that energy arises at the moment of diligence, and that it is the opposite of being lazy. However, according to the Abhidhamma which explains in detail the cetasikas accompanying citta, viriya accompanies akusala citta even when we are lazy, and in that case viriya applies itself to laziness again and again. The Dhamma is very subtle and it should be considered in all details; for example, the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause of realities should be studied and investigated. According to the "Expositor" in the same section, the characteristic of viriya is the state of a courageous or energetic person, or the action of a courageous person. When viriya arises one is not inert or lax. One person may be courageous whereas someone else may be a coward. According to the Abhidhamma, also a coward must have viriya, energy, for cowardice. However, in the case of a courageous person the characteristic of viriya appears clearly since he must strive to accomplish something, inspite of obstacles or dangers. Such courage is the characteristic of viriya cetasika. When viriya goes together with the development of kusala, it can become a controlling faculty, the indriya of viriya. The indriya of viriya that arises together with the other indriyas, the indriyas of confidence (saddhaa), sati, samaadhi (concentration) and pa~n~naa when satipa.t.thaana is being developed, is right effort of the eightfold Path, sammaavaayaama. It is right effort for awareness and understanding of the characteristics of realities, just as they naturally appear at this moment. When pa~n~naa has further developed, viriya becomes a power, bala, which is unshakable, so that there is energy for awareness and understanding of the characteristics of naama and ruupa in whatever situation. One will not be inclined to think that there cannot be awareness of naama and ruupa at this moment. .. to be continued, connie #86346 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 28, 2008 5:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the causes of 4 great elements + space & consciousness 5-6th? sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Tue, 27/5/08, Alex wrote: > A: >Does anyone know what is the origin of 4 great elements in the suttas? > ======= > S: The same as the origin of the 4 great elements in the Abhidhamma:- ) > Citta, kamma, temperature and nutriment. > A: >Citta or vinnana is produced by interaction of rupas (ex: MN148). So it itself isn't the initial cause of Rupa (or MahaBhuta). .... S: No, but that rupa (experienced by cittas which it conditions) had to have been conditioned by previous citta, kamma, termperature or nutriment. .... A: >Same with Kamma. .... S: Past Kamma conditions vipaka cittas and produces rupas (of the body). Again, the rupas may be a condition for cittas to experience them. ... A: >Temperature is Fire Element. Nutriment is earth element and/or derivatives of it. .... S: Nutriment is ahara dhatu (nutriment element), not pathavi dhatu (earth element). All rupas outside the body are conditioned by temperature. ..... A: >So Fire is caused by Fire (and other great elements, ie earth, air) See where I am going? ..... S: ;-) ... A: >Thank you for your reply ...... S: Thank you for your courteous responses. Metta, Sarah ========= #86347 From: "Alex" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 7:44 am Subject: Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "...Just because "Anger" (or some other mind state) seems to > ultimately exist does NOT mean that it does truly exist." > > Scott: I can't follow you here, Alex, sorry. You've made all this up. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Remember the chariot similie? Basically it is this: a chariot is made up of many parts none of which are trully chariot. Chariot is a concept. It "exists" only when its parts are functionally arranged together to form a chariot. Quantity of lower level things (wooden or metal pieces) make a higher level Quality - a drivable vehicle called "chariot". Same is here. Nama is made up of many different components, 3 aggregates actually (vedana+sanna+sankhara). Those three aggregates according to the Buddha (mn109) are due to contact, which is also made up of lower level processess that only when they are together functions as 'contact' (phassa). If you trace back the chain of causes you will see that they ALL end up with rupa of some sort in some combination with other rupa. IMHO. Furthemore if we are consistent and insist that chariot is a concept because none of its parts is a chariot, why do we overlook NAMA? Anger isn't a singular and undivisible entity. Anger has specific manifestations of rupa phenomenon outside of which, anger is merely a concept at best. Lets take anatta ALL the way and become Arahants, totally disspasionate about emotions and things like that. *I think that phassa as contact isn't the best translation, but I use it not to confuse others. Deluded Subject-object Interaction is better IMHO. Best wishes, Alex #86348 From: "Alex" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 7:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) truth_aerator Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > ............................................. > > Hi Scott, Alex > > > I looked up "science" in the dictionary...its almost exactly what the Buddha > did.... > > > "A branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths > systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws." > > > There are all sorts of "science specializations." The Buddha's was > concerning the issue of suffering. > > > TG > I strongly disagree. Science (especially Hard Science) isn't just a collection of facts. It is primary a METHOD. Things don't get accepted simply due to reason, but due to being verified & tested emperically with as much objectivity as possible. The hypothesis must be checked and it must answer some scientific problem. Furthermore, theories undergo serious critical testing and are tried to be emperically disproved. If a theory withstands critical examination (aimed at trying to show that theory is false), then it is a fact. Also there is such a thing called "Falsification principle". A theory MUST be under certain conditions disprovable, otherwise it shouldn't even be considered as a theory worth checking. This is to prevent some witty theories that are framed in such a way that they can never be shown to be false (even though they themselves may be false). This is how I understand it. Best wishes, Alex #86349 From: "Alex" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 8:25 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Overview of KS 1: Background truth_aerator Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex > > > While Buddha didn't reference using word "Pitaka" he did mention > > Sutta and Vinaya. > > > > Could you give me an example of the kind of reference to 'Sutta' (as in Sutta Pitaka) you have in mind here? Thanks. >>> Regarding the suttas. The are very consistent with each other and definately have the same message. Not so with different Abhidhamma works. ""... in the future, those Suttas uttered by the Tathagata, deep, profound in meaning, transcending the world, concerning emptiness (sunyata or illusory nature of existence): to these when uttered they will not listen, will not give a ready ear, will not want to understand, to recite, to master them. But those discourses made by poets, mere poetry, a conglomeration of words and phrases, alien (outside the Buddha's Teachings), the utterances of disciples: to these when uttered they will listen, will give a ready ear, will want to understand, to recite, to master them. Thus it is, monks, that the Suttas uttered by the Tathagata, deep profound in meaning, transcending the world, concerning emptiness, will disappear. Therefore, monks, train yourselves, thus: To these very Suttas will we listen, give a ready ear, understand, recite and master them." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn20-7.html Regarding Dhamma-Vinay a "In Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 4.180, the Buddha specifically refers to Dhamma as the Suttas (discourses). " "Monks, train yourselves thus: To these very Suttas will we listen, give a ready ear, understand, recite and master them." -Buddha, Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 20.7 http://www.zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/ebdha163.htm > > > Did the Buddha anywhere state that he taught: > > Dhammasangani, Vibhanga, Dhatukatha, Puggalapannati, Katthavatthu, > > Yamaka, Patthana ? > > > > The same comment applies here as applied to your earlier question about the Abhidhamma Pitaka. The classification of each of the Pitakas into their constituent parts happened after the Buddha's death, so obviously there could be no reference by the Buddha himself to the 7 books of the Abhidhamma, just as there could be no reference to the various books of the Sutta Pitaka (MN, AN, SN, KN, etc). > > > Or even more specific: > > > > Did the Buddha state anywhere in the suttas that there are 89 or 121 > > states of citta? 52 Cetasikas? 28 Rupas? 4 Ultimate realities being > > (Citta, Cetasika, Rupa, Nibbana)? > > > > Perhaps not. But that in itself doesn't prove anything. Much of what is in the AP is mentioned in the suttas: 5 khandhas, 18 elements, 12 ayatanas, 4 Noble Truths, Noble Eightfold Path, and so on. > > Jon > This is true, this is why there was so many different Abhidhammas in existence, even though they agreed on the most inner concepts, yet drastically differed on some other things. I wonder why so many different interpretations of Buddha's word appeared... If Buddha clearly spelled out certain Abh teachings, then we would not have all the controversies today. Best wishes, Alex #86350 From: "Alex" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 8:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the causes of 4 great elements + space & consciousness 5-6th? truth_aerator Hi Sarah! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Tue, 27/5/08, Alex wrote: > > A: >Does anyone know what is the origin of 4 great elements in the > suttas? > > ======= > > S: The same as the origin of the 4 great elements in the Abhidhamma:- ) > > Citta, kamma, temperature and nutriment. > > Is there a sutta which says that 4 GE's are caused by citta kamma temp nutr ? I used to believe that vinnana conditions other vinnana before I examined MN148 in detail. How can vinnana condition another vinnana if vinnana itself is due to two objects coming together and not being a single, monolithic and irreducible "thing" ? > > A: >Citta or vinnana is produced by interaction of rupas (ex: MN148). > So it itself isn't the initial cause of Rupa (or MahaBhuta). > .... > S: No, but that rupa (experienced by cittas which it conditions) had to have been conditioned by previous citta, kamma, termperature or nutriment. > .... > A: >Same with Kamma. > .... > S: Past Kamma conditions vipaka cittas and produces rupas (of the body). Again, the rupas may be a condition for cittas to experience them. > ... > A: >Temperature is Fire Element. Nutriment is earth element and/or > derivatives of it. > .... > S: Nutriment is ahara dhatu (nutriment element), not pathavi dhatu (earth element). All rupas outside the body are conditioned by temperature. >>> From what is ahara dhatu made of? It cause can be traced to 4 GEs. > ..... > A: >So Fire is caused by Fire (and other great elements, ie earth, air) > > See where I am going? > ..... > S: ;-) > ... > A: >Thank you for your reply > ...... > S: Thank you for your courteous responses. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > Best wishes, Alex #86351 From: "Alex" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 8:58 am Subject: Re: Brief: What We Know Versus What We Infer truth_aerator Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Alex, TG, Herman, and all - > It seems to me that it is important to distinguish what we know in the sense of directly experience from what we infer. In the matter of materialistic reductionism (and also the mind-stuff reductionism of idealism), each presuming a world of "substance" beyond experience and that underlies and is the basis of experience, that is solely inferred. >>> As I understand idealism it claims that knowledge is indistinguishable from being. In other words, if you don't perceive something - then it doesn't exist. I think it was Berkeley who said something like "Can you imagine Athens without imagining it" or something like that. I've used to held a similiar perspective. The rebutal is this: 500+ years ago people believe in geocentric concept of the cosmos, today we do not. Does that mean that sun was physically rotating around the earth due to their belief AND limited emperic observation coupled with feelings and intuitive hunch? NO. Materialism claims that there is something regardless of whether anyone percieves it or not. Of course it must be emperically measured and tested in order to come up with facts. hard Science for example is against unverifiable and untestable hypothesis. Furthermore if we do not posit any "thing" being outside of oneself, then the question as to how the Buddha & Arahants existed and communicated to us, unenlightened the enlightened message that we couldn't come up ourselves. >>>> What is directly given includes all aspects of experience, some being material (rupic), and some mental (namic). All that we can rely on with certainty, it seems to me, is experiential content as opposed to inferential theory. As I see the matter, the Buddha > adopted that radical empiricist perspective when he said "ehipassiko," and when he taught the Kalaka Sutta and the Bahiya Sutta. > > With metta, > Howard The problem with "directly given" is that when we are under the power of Mara, any directly given perception is tainted with ignorance. Radical empericist approach isn't even exclusively Buddhist, yet only the Buddha was The One and the Only one (except for past/future Buddhas). Furthermore, I wonder how would someone with a radical empericist approach and with NO inference cross the busy street safely or turn a corner. If you suddenly start to smell a strong burning smell in your house then you better infer that there is a fire and get out ASAP (seconds may count) etc etc. I am sure that you can come up with MANY cases in lay life where inference must be used. Considering that there were lay Anagamins in Buddha's time who were really advanced in Buddhist practice and that they survived - I think that they did use inferences - CAUTIOUSLY. Best wishes, Alex #86352 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed May 28, 2008 5:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Brief: What We Know Versus What We Infer TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 5/28/2008 5:54:56 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, Alex, TG, Herman, and all - It seems to me that it is important to distinguish what we know in the sense of directly experience from what we infer. In the matter of materialistic reductionism (and also the mind-stuff reductionism of idealism), each presuming a world of "substance" beyond experience and that underlies and is the basis of experience, that is solely inferred. What is directly given includes all aspects of experience, some being material (rupic), and some mental (namic). ...................................................... TG: Would "pure experience" alone be able to make these "judgement calls" of nama and rupa? I don't think so. So already a measure of inference is part of the equation. .............................................................. All that we can rely on with certainty, it seems to me, is experiential content as opposed to inferential theory. ................................................................. TG: Experiential content without an analysis would just be ignorant experience as I see it. A new born baby has that. ......................................................... As I see the matter, the Buddha adopted that radical empiricist perspective when he said "ehipassiko,adopted tha he taught the Kalaka Sutta and the Bahiya Sutta. ......................................................... TG: Two suttas? Why don't we include the other thousand or so and give them equal consideration. Surely I agree that the Buddha taught a type of phenomenology. But he also taught a type of psychology, a type of science, a type of religion. He taught about the external world and how conditions operate there without regard to tying it to experiential phenomena. There are so many things and all valuable. As I've indicated, I think the "pure phenomenology" approach is impossible anyway. But certainly a phenomenological approach is extremely important. I just think there are other things that are also important and add much to insight. To turn away from those other things is to needlessly handy-cap oneself IMO. TG OUT #86353 From: "Alex" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 9:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Brief: What We Know Versus What We Infer truth_aerator Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > ...................................................... > TG: Would "pure experience" alone be able to make these "judgement calls" of nama and rupa? I don't think so. > So already a measure of inference is part of the equation. > > > .............................................................. > Very nice put! I'd also add would "pure experience" refute the feeling of "I AM" ? > All that we can rely on with certainty, it seems to me, is experiential content as opposed to inferential theory. > > ................................................................. > > > TG: Experiential content without an analysis would just be ignorant > experience as I see it. A new born baby has that. > > > ......................................................... Right. Yoniso Manasikaro is a must. It is one of the factors responsible for Stream Entry. I am NOT sure if pure phenomenological approach (which has an ancient history) is exclusively Buddhist. > ......................................................... > TG: Two suttas? Why don't we include the other thousand or so and give them equal consideration. Surely I agree that the Buddha taught a type of phenomenology. >>> IMHO Buddha has stressed the "don't attach to anything" part rather than don't think at all, which is also sometimes an attachment itself. >>>> But he also taught a type of psychology, a type of science, a type of religion. He taught about the external world and how conditions operate there without regard to tying it to experiential phenomena. There are so many things and all valuable. >>>> I agree. Dependent Origination, Kamma, 4NT, etc happen regardless of whether a person is aware of it or not. In this sense they have an "objective" existence. The ultimate point is to see conditionality, not self, dukkha, etc behind the phenomenon and remove all craving which causes suffering. Best wishes, Alex #86354 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed May 28, 2008 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) TGrand458@... Hi Alex In a message dated 5/28/2008 8:55:49 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: I strongly disagree. Science (especially Hard Science) isn't just a collection of facts. It is primary a METHOD. ............................................ TG: That's cool. But you're disagreeing with the Random House College Dictionary then. Just so you know who to call. ;-) ............................................................ Things don't get accepted simply due to reason, but due to being verified & tested emperically with as much objectivity as possible. The hypothesis must be checked and it must answer some scientific problem. Furthermore, theories undergo serious critical testing and are tried to be emperically disproved. If a theory withstands critical examination (aimed at trying to show that theory is false), then it is a fact. Also there is such a thing called "Falsification principle". A theory MUST be under certain conditions disprovable, otherwise it shouldn't even be considered as a theory worth checking. This is to prevent some witty theories that are framed in such a way that they can never be shown to be false (even though they themselves may be false). This is how I understand it. .................................................... TG: When science is able to develop and prove the Eightfold Path based on their theories, then I'm good with that! They're 2,500 behind the Buddha now, don't think I'll wait for them on that score. Science tends to specialize. In escaping suffering, the whole package needs to be united into one vision. As Buddhists, we can use certain aspects of science to help us better see causal principles and to continue to confirm them...if we wish. But the Buddha taught the most important things and the necessary things. TG OUT #86355 From: "Alex" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 9:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) truth_aerator Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Alex > > .................................................... > > TG: When science is able to develop and prove the Eightfold Path based on their theories, then I'm good with that! They're 2,500 behind the Buddha now, don't think I'll wait for them on that score. > The teaching of not-self has been developed in philosophies and science as well. Neuroscientists do claim that sense of self is a hallucination. Buddhist are happier: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3047291.stm Meditation give brain a charge http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43006-2005Jan2.html Also, an AWESOME description of what may have happened to Buddha's brain: (I do disagree with certain bits, but overally, this is good article) "Enlightment and the brain" http://www.shaktitechnology.com/enlightenment.htm ------ Best wishes, Alex #86356 From: "Alex" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 9:32 am Subject: Re: Overview of KS 2: Her Appeal/Charisma truth_aerator Hi James and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi All (especially Nina and Ven. P), > I'd like to add: ----- The Buddha's Words Take Precedence Let us consider what happened after the Buddha's demise. About 100 years after the Buddha passed into Nibbana, conflict arose among the monks. The 2nd Sangha Council was consequently called to resolve these differences. Ten points were disputed; one of which concerned whether we should always follow the advice of our Teacher. In this case, it was decided that if a monk's teachings or instructions were in accordance with the Buddha's Teachings (i.e. the earliest 4 Nikayas and Vinaya), then his words should be followed. However, if his instructions contradicted the Buddha's Teachings, they should be ignored. Thus, the 2nd Sangha Council's ruling on this matter was very clear and definite: the Buddha's words take precedence over any monk's words. Buddhists should, therefore, become familiar with the Suttas so that they can judge whether the instructions of monks or some other teachers are in accordance with the Buddha's Teachings. This is why Buddhists should always remember the Dhamma-Vinaya is their Teacher. Refuge only in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha In the Suttas, the Buddha calls monks kalyanamitta (good friend). A monk is a good friend who introduces you to the Buddha's Teachings and encourages one in the spiritual path. It is you, however, who have to take the 3 refuges (i.e. dependence) in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. But nowadays, people have added a 4th refuge (i.e. refuge in a monk or a teacher) which contradicts the Buddha's Teachings. This is made very clear in the Suttas. For instance, in Majjhima Nikaya Suttas 84 & 94, there was an Arahant who taught very impressively and one person asked to take refuge in him. The Arahant replied that refuge could not be taken in him but only in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. The person then asked where the Buddha was and said he wanted to go and take refuge in Him. The Arahant explained that the Buddha had passed into Nibbana, but even so people should still take refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. This shows we always acknowledge the Buddha as our Teacher, now embodied in His Teachings (Dhamma-Vinaya). The Dhamma is His discourses. The Sangha is the community of monastics who are Noble (Ariya). World-Renowned Teacher can have Wrong Views As it is very difficult to distinguish between Ariya and non-Ariya, we cannot rely on hearsay alone. Recommendations that such and such is a very famous monk who has many high attainments, etc., are very unreliable. As the Buddha stated in the Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 5.88, it is possible that a world-renowned monk of very senior status, with a huge following of lay and monastic disciples, and who is highly learned in the scriptures, can have wrong views. The Buddha gave us this warning for the future (i.e. nowadays) as he saw and knew that even such monks could not be relied upon. Therefore, only the Suttas and Vinaya can be relied on and made our Teacher. Other people can be no more than good friends. In Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 4.180, the Buddha taught the great authorities. He advised that when any monk taught that such and such were the Teachings of the Buddha, we should, without scorning or welcoming his words compare those words with the Suttas and Vinaya. If they are not in accordance with the Suttas and Vinaya, we should reject them. Again, this illustrates how a strong grasp of the Sutta-Vinaya is a reliable guide to what the Buddha actually taught. This knowledge enables us to distinguish between a teacher who teaches the true Dhamma and another who has wrong views. http://www.zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/ebdha163.htm ----------------------- Best wishes, Alex #86357 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed May 28, 2008 5:49 am Subject: Mentality as Smoke and Mirrors TGrand458@... Hi Alex BTW, Just wanted to mention that I found this outlook very good and useful. TG #86358 From: "connie" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 11:38 am Subject: Re: Mental states don't exist (as irreducible entities?) nichiconn dear herman, H: I don't know what PPn is, or who wrote it, but they were quite wrong, weren't they, about the causes of snot? It's good to see you quoting texts that mock ignorance of conditionality. C: PPn = Path of of Purification, Nanamoli's xltn of Buddhaghosa's VisuddhiMagga; not really a mocking text. But, Man, if you don't believe in "impurity that trickles out from the brain", I don't know why; we're all living proof of it, even if birth in this realm is considered 'good'. Actually, what seems to me the most important point about the body parts is still that little dividing line in "nama-rupa". PoP = Path of Purity, PM Tin's xltn of the same book: << ...brain forms a separate class in the body, is non-mental, indeterminate, void (of soul), without sentience, hard, earth-element. Of the (two kinds of) bile, fluid-bile is bound up with the life-controlling faculty, and is diffused through the whole body. Bile as organ is situated in the gall-bladder. Just as a piece of cake through which oil is diffused does not know that the oil is diffused through it, nor does the oil know that it is diffused through the cake, so the body does not know that the bile-fluid is diffused through it, nor does the bile-fluid know that it is diffused through the body. Just as a luffa-skin full of rain-water does not know that in it is the rain-water, nor does the rain-water know that it is in the luffa-skin, so the gall-bladder does not know that in it lies the organ of bile, nor does the organ of bile know that it lies in the gall-bladder. There is no mutual laying to heart, no reflection. Thus bile forms a separate class in the body, is non-mental, indeterminate, void (of soul), without sentience, fluid, cohesive in mode, water-element. >> "Does thinking sit?" On a personal note, it just so happens I covered my mouth with my hand before sneezing on the way home from the Post Office today and sure as heck, I had to wonder What to Do about that brainy looking glob of snot stuff at the base of my thumb afterwards. peace, connie #86359 From: "connie" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 12:03 pm Subject: Overview of KS 2: Her Appeal/Charisma nichiconn Dear James, sarah: An interesting series.... I'm looking forward to the meat as well:-). James: Glad you are enjoying it, but focus on each post individually. They are each "the meat". :-) connie: Not to be too cheesy, but please pass the bologna! Speaking of college educations! Two quotes: 1) Monier-Williams' BUDDHISM quotes <> 2) C.A.F. Rhys-Davids' BUDDHISM, pp.42-43 << Abhidhamma has, as we know, long ceased to be taught in the Palestine or Holy Land of Buddhism. Of the chief centres where it was successively taught, Jetavana's site lies revealed in utter ruin, and over Nalanda's university, swept away by fire and sword, the little ploughs scratch the obliterating soil. But the torch of the Theras, handed on by missionary ardour to centres of civilization in Ceylon and Further India, has furnished a fire from those Indian mother-altars that has never become extinct. In the viharas of Ceylon, Siam and Burma, the Pali Canon is and has been taught as authoritative from its introduction till now. And it is remarkable, when we compare palm-leaf Pali MSS., written in the different characters of each of these countries, to see how relatively few, and especially how doctrinally negligeable are the mutual discrepancies in the text. To the doctrines as set forth in the Canon, the mediaeval and modern works on Abhidhamma lines loyally and piously adhere. >> Well, I just like those. When you do make it to The Foundation (sorry if I've already asked) please tell us all about the library there. peace, connie #86360 From: "Tep" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 2:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Panna As Indriya dhammanusarin Hello Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > Welcome back, good friend :-) > > > Cheers > > > Herman > T: Thank you very much for your friendly welcome. I also remember you as a good friend. We'll probably find a few issues to discuss again. Regards, Tep === #86361 From: "Tep" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 2:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Panna As Indriya dhammanusarin Dear Sarah, - Yes, you're right that there were long discussions before about panna, pannindriya and other related terms. I was also invoved in some of these discussions. .. >S: I wondered at the time whether panna could always be referred to as pannindriya as the book Han was quoting from (as I recall) seemed to suggest. Or can panna only be referred to as an indriya (faculty) when it has been developed. >Do you (or others) have any ideas on this? T: As I have observed, panna (or pa~n~naa) is an aspect of pannindriya and the two terms are always mentioned together in the Abhidhamma Book 2 (the Vibhanga) as they are intertwined and inseparable. I understand that the kind of panna that is inseparable from indriya is well developed; it is not in the domain of the worldlings (no matter how high his/her I.Q. is). Let me support my statement by two suttas. 1) MN 117: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta. T: The Buddha defined the true right view of the ariyans as follows. "And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path." T: The term "discernment" here is the rendition of 'pa~n~naa'. The faculty of discernment is 'pa~n~nindriya', the strength of discernment is 'pa~n~naa-bala', and the analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening is 'dhammavicaya-sambojjhanga'. In MN 117 these terms together define the supramundane right view. 2) SN 48.10 Indriya-vibhanga Sutta. "And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away â€" noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment." ................................................ I hope these excellent suttas help. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Tep (Han & all), > > --- On Wed, 28/5/08, Tep wrote: > >Sarah: If you rejoin, I have a little more to raise on panna as > indriya... > > > Tep: I am interested. Please proceed ! > ======= > > S: Thanks for picking this up. > #86362 From: "Alex" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 4:28 pm Subject: Re: Kamma being imponderable truth_aerator Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > Thanks for the reply: > > H: "Well, let's consider the Buddha's teaching on kamma, shall we? Do you accept them?" > > Scott: Yes. I gather that you don't, which is fine. > > H: "A very significant thing he said about kamma was that it was > imponderable..." > > Scott: True. I was recalling the same thing. > > H: "So, let me ask what it is about you that makes accumulation of > kamma so self-evident. And if you are actually less than certain about > how kamma works, do you know how all the other non-Buddhas come to > understand it so penetratingly?..." > > Scott: To what end would a discussion with you on kamma be? If you > don't buy it, why should it matter? I have no interest in attempting > to change your mind. It seems as if the subject of accumulations is > brought up, not to consider it and clarify it, but rather simply as > something that, as I imagine your view, is impossible to prove and > therefore something only to be accepted or not. >>>> Herman has a point on Kamma. Since kamma is imponderable, we had infinite (or almost infinite) amount of past existences in which even 1 "grain" of good kamma may have been made which means that in infinite amount of existences, that 1 grain accumulated, so you may have enough good kamma to become an Arahant. Only if you put in the effort and don't commit heineous crimes you may have great potential. The talk about lack of accumulations can be a convinient excuse, after all do you know everything about your Kammic accumulations? Angulimala achieved Arahatship, so why cant you? Yeh yeh, I know, the Buddha isn't around so it is a bit tougher. But unlike Angulimala you didn't kill 999 (or even 1 human) so you probably don't carry weighty bad kamma. You also have access to more suttas than most Buddhists living during Buddha's time... So this isn't an excuse either... Best wishes, Alex #86363 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 3:50 pm Subject: Selfless and Harmless... bhikkhu0 Friends: What is the Deepest Bliss in this World? The blessed Buddha once said: Solitude is happiness for one who is satisfied, Who understands & clearly sees this Dhamma. Harmlessness is happiness in all worlds, Kindness towards all living beings. Udana 10 Blissful is solitude for one who is content, learned & who see the True Dhamma. Blissful is gentle harmlessness towards all breathing beings without exception. Blissful is complete freedom from all urge for sense pleasures whatsoever. Yet, the supreme bliss, is the elimination of the abysmal conceit “I amâ€?!’ Udana 11 View all in this world as Empty - Void of Substance - Thus always Open & Aware, Friend Mogharaja Giving up belief in all & any Self! One may escape even Death, since Mara - the king of Death- cannot see one with such void view! Sutta Nipata 1119 Selfless and Harmless! http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Selfless_and_Harmless.htm Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #86364 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 5:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ------------------ <. . .> KH: > >Would the Pali be 'dana, sila and bhavana' I wonder? But it doesn't matter; > > S: > Anyway, here's the Pali: Sabbapaapassa akara.na"m (not to do any evil) kusalassa upasampada (to cultivate good) sacittapariyodapana"m (to purify one's mind) eta"m buddhaana saasana"m (this is the Teaching of the Buddhas.) ------------------- Thanks, that's interesting, but it doesn't change things a great deal for me. "Not to do evil" could mean "refrain when there is an opportunity to do evil" couldn't it? In which case it would leave me back where I was. But, never mind; it still doesn't matter. ------------------------------- KH: > > I take your point > about there being many kinds of sila. I can imagine there is a lot > about it in the texts -<...> S: > like from the Perfections corner #85226 on sila as avoidance (vaaritta) and as performance (caaritta). Lots of good detail. -------------------------------- Yes, here is a quote from it: "but with regard to siila as performance (caaritta), we should consider the Bodhisatta's conduct, so that we shall further develop kusala." I like that because it is present-moment oriented. At least, "considering" is. As for the sila itself, however, that's where I get back to the trouble I was having at the KK discussions. At KK, I asked whether sila (or dana in that case) was [also] a single moment thing (a reality) or was it a concept? The answer was not what I was expecting. KS replied, "There has to be an act of dana." At that point I was tempted to ask "But isn't an act of dana just a story?" But I didn't ask that because I didn't want to look like an ignorant smart-aleck who was trying to catch KS out (by throwing her own words back at her). So I'm asking you. :-) Isn't an act of dana just a story? If there is, in ultimate reality, such a thing as dana then surely it must be the function of a single, fleeting, citta and its cetasikas.(?) Sorry to be going over this again. I have driven you and Jon and Sukin (et al) just about mad already. And I did say I would drop it for a while. But here it is, surfaced again! ---------------------- S: > Also, I thought the following as quoted in the Perfections corner too (#84923) might be relevant to the discussions on dana as reality: **** >"The Book of Analysis (the second Book of the Abhidhamma), in Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge, 325) explains about different kinds of pa~n~naa,such as wisdom by means of thinking, wisdom by means of hearing, wisdom by means of giving, wisdom by means of siila. The "Dispeller of Delusion" < . . > We read in the "Dispeller of Delusion" <. . .> The "Dispeller of Delusion" <. . .> This is the condition for pa~n~naa which is understanding based on daana (daanamayaa pa~n~naa)." -------------------- Thanks. On second thoughts, pretend I didn't say the above. I won't delete it now, but it is something I will just have to wake up to by myself. You and the others have done more than enough already. Ken H PS: There was another post from you to me that has disappeared from my replies folder. I will go looking for it. (Hopefully my response won't take as long as the next instalment of Vism Chapter XX.) Oh dear, what a mess we procrastinators make for ourselves! PPS: I have just found it - 86115. It has an easy, surfing related question in it! #86365 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 5:48 pm Subject: Re: Kamma being imponderable scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "Herman has a point on Kamma..." Scott: And when he finally makes it, I will comment. Personally, I think the Herman does not consider kamma to have any relevance. I do, and so, it seems, do you, and hence we agree. Don't we? A: "...Since kamma is imponderable, we had infinite (or almost infinite) amount of past existences in which even 1 'grain' of good kamma may have been made which means that in infinite amount of existences, that 1 grain accumulated, so you may have enough good kamma to become an Arahant. Only if you put in the effort and don't commit heineous crimes you may have great potential." Scott: Alex, the fact that we enjoy a human existence now is proof of more that 'one grain' of kusala kamma. If only you'd disconnect your Auto-Disagree Function, you'd find that we likely agree on kamma! And you should know by now my opinion of your cheer-leading about 'effort' (the nature and functions of which I think you continue to entirely misunderstand). A: "The talk about lack of accumulations can be a convinient excuse, after all do you know everything about your Kammic accumulations?" Scott: I'd suggest you ask Herman whether he thinks there is anything to kamma. I think that you and I agree that kamma is taught by the Buddha. I agree that it is an imponderable subject. I also think that, since an kamma at one point leads to vipaaka at another. This has to be so due to an accumulation wherein the 'potential' for vipaaka persists from moment to moment until conditions are right for its unfolding. Repeat: I totally buy the idea of 'accumulations'. A: "...But unlike Angulimala you didn't kill 999 (or even 1 human) so you probably don't carry weighty bad kamma. ..." Scott: You can't possibly have any evidence for this statement, Alex. It is pure nonsense. Weighty bad kamma accumulates over infinite existences, as does good kamma. Kamma is imponderable, remember? A: "You also have access to more suttas than most Buddhists living during Buddha's time... So this isn't an excuse either" Scott: To have the Joyful Access to the Dhamma, and to be Really Into It, no matter how, is a Great Thing. Sincerely, Scott. #86366 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 7:04 pm Subject: Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ---------- <. . .> KH: > (One day I will look back and laugh about this.) :-) > > S:> I've forgotten what all this is about. Are you laughing now? Any further reflections? ----------- Well I'm glad you haven't been losing sleep over it! :-) Let me ask another way: Has there been a change in emphasis in K Sujin's talks lately? Or has she always made this point about some aramannas being more commonly-occurring than others? Maybe I just haven't been listening properly to the recordings all these years. It was a bit of a shock, that's all. It was as if we were suddenly adopting a more "personal" (shock, horror!) approach to satipatthana with emphasis on *my* most frequent aramannas, "my* best chances of directly knowing a dhamma etc. Even as I write this I can see that it didn't have to be interpreted that way. We can learn about most-commonly-occurring aramannas without necessarily thinking "Oh good, here's my chance!" But there was something going on, wasn't there? Other people seemed to be having difficulty too. Or did I just imagine it? ---------- S: > I'm actually just trying to tidy up loose threads before we go away at the end of next week. ---------- No hurry. I'm not going anywhere. ----------------- S: > p.s How's the surf in Noosa? I still have a problematic hip, so my surfing career may be curtailed before it ever properly started;-) ----------------- Oh, that's a shame. I still have a secret hope that you and Jon will retire one day to "sunny Queensland" and we can see-out our days together riding pipelines at Tea Tree Bay. Speaking of fast, hollow waves: Last week there was a sudden unexpected increase in swell, and Ti Tree was good without being crowded (for once). And guess who got the wave of the day! For the first time in months I had a big (ish), perfectly shaped, truly wackable wave. My hips are still OK (touch wood) but sometimes my fifty-seven-year-old knees are not up to the task of lip wacking. I must have been a sight to behold with my right knee buckling - and me nearly wiping out - at every cutback. And there were plenty of cutbacks; the wave just kept going and going. Bliss! (Wobbly bliss.) Ken H #86367 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 6:09 pm Subject: Re: Overview of KS 2: Her Appeal/Charisma buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > connie: Not to be too cheesy, but please pass the bologna! James: :-) Cute. > > When you do make it to The Foundation (sorry if I've already asked) James: Yes, you have already asked and I don't know when I will be able to make it. I have been to Thailand twice and when I go again I want to go to Phuket. please tell us all about the library there. James: Why don't you tell us all about the library there? Metta, James #86368 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 7:56 pm Subject: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching buddhatrue Hi All, (especially Nina and Ven. P), In the first two of this series, I examined K. Sujin's background and her appeal/charisma for her followers, in this post I will examine her specific teachings which contradict the Buddha's teachings. First, K. Sujin places all-important emphasis on listening to the Dhamma as the panacea for suffering. Here is a basic quote from her book 'Taking Refuge in Buddhism' (but you will find many, many, many similiar quotes throughout the book): K. Sujin: Listening to the Dhamma, listening intently, is an essential condition for the arising of paññå, there is no other method to develop paññå. James: Of course, nowhere does the Buddha teach this. The Buddha's teaching is not just about listening to the Dhamma. Those who believe this teaching can only point toward anecdotal evidence as support: Sariputta was listening to the Dhamma when he became enlightened, etc. Well, ancedotal evidence is not evidence. The Buddha didn't teach the Dhamma with ancedotes. This teaching of "listening is the only method" directly contradicts the development of samadhi. Nowhere in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" does K. Sujin mention samadhi, jhana, or meditation (except as sati); however, she mentions 'listening to the Dhamma' 142 times! K. Sujin's teaching of the Dhamma is lopsided toward listening to the philosophy of the Abhidhamma and away from the practice detailed in the suttas. K. Sujin: The Buddha taught the development of the eightfold Path and this consists of eight factors which are the following cetasikas: right understanding or sammå-diììhi right thinking or sammå-sankappa right speech or sammå-våcå right bodily action or sammå-kammanta right livelihood or sammå-åjíva right effort or sammå-våyåma right mindfulness or sammå-sati right concentration or sammå-samådhi James: This is where K. Sujin completely forms her own religion. She is no longer teaching Buddhism when she describes the eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path as cetasikas. You won't find this descrption in the suttas, the Vinaya, the Abhidhamma, or the commentaries (including the Vism.). (I challenge anyone to provide a direct quote from any of these sources which describes the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path as individual cetasikas.) The factors of the Noble Eightfold Path each involve different cetasikas, they are not themselves cetasikas (i.e. Right Speech involves different cetasikas, but there is not a cetasika called "Right Speech"). When you define the N8P as individual cetasikas, then development is no longer possible. The practitioner either has the cetasika or doesn't have it. However, the N8P is a path of practice and development, not just achievement. K. Sujin completely warps and undermines the Buddha's teaching when she teaches the N8P in this manner. Metta, James #86369 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 9:01 pm Subject: Re: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't ... egberdina Hi Howard, 2008/5/28 : > > I'm talking about a criterion for adequate explanation of the what and > how of "causality". The Buddha said merely that when a certain types of > conditions have arisen, then objectively and with regularity, a certain other type > of phenomenon arises. When there is this, there will be that. > I have seen no coherent criterion provided for what more there should > be. So called causational explanation in reality consists of nothing more than > statements of the sort "Z arose because of conditions W, X, and Y; and Y > arose because of conditions T, U, and V; etc, etc - with the lists continuing > until the listerner is satisfied. > Sorry to be nitpicky, but the Buddha always also included the reverse, namely that in the absence of a certain phenomena then another phenomena would not arise. That addition is critical to an understanding of causality. Else one could be forgiven for thinking that day causes night, simply because they always follow one another. But it is not the case that in the absence of night day doesn't occur, and that is why there is no causal link. Cheers Herman #86370 From: "Phil" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 10:14 pm Subject: Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching philofillet Hi James > James: This is where K. Sujin completely forms her own religion. > She is no longer teaching Buddhism when she describes the eight > factors of the Noble Eightfold Path as cetasikas. You won't find > this descrption in the suttas, the Vinaya, the Abhidhamma, or the > commentaries (including the Vism.). (I challenge anyone to provide > a direct quote from any of these sources which describes the factors I think in the CMA, B. Bodhi also explains the path factors according to individual cetasikas. I'm not sure, but I think it is standard Abhidhamma, the supra-mundane path or something. Where K. Sujin and her students go wrong on this point is completely undervaluing the mundane path because the supra-mundane path is so sexy. In fact, I may be wrong here, but I think they even deny there is a mundane path involving very mundane factors. That right thinking, for example, is *only* a momentary process involving the function of cetasikas and does not have anything to do with the content of thought. Wrong there. I just wish they would place more importance on the very mundane factors that have to be developed before these deep, deep single cetasika path factors can have any real meaning other than being sexy to think about. (Sexy in the sense of attractive to think about very deep, deep aspects of Dhamma. I remember one student of AS using the word "deep" to talk about some Dhamma point as though he/she were discussing a sexy part of someone's body....deeeeeeepppppp...) Metta, Phil #86371 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 28, 2008 10:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Panna As Indriya sarahprocter... Dear Tep & all, --- On Thu, 29/5/08, Tep wrote: >T: As I have observed, panna (or pa~n~naa) is an aspect of pannindriya and the two terms are always mentioned together in the Abhidhamma Book 2 (the Vibhanga) as they are intertwined and Inseparable. I understand that the kind of panna that is inseparable from indriya is well developed; it is not in the domain of the worldlings ********** S: I think you’re correct that often pannindriya refers to supramundane wisdom. However, I don’t think this is also the case. If you look at the Vibhanga (above) in ch. 5 ‘Analysis of the Controlling Faculties’, it lists the 22 indriyas at the beginning of the chapter. The last four of these are given as: * a) controlling faculty of wisdom (pa~n~nindriya) b) controlling faculty of ‘I am knowing the unknown’ (ana~n~naata~n~nassaamiitindriya) c) controlling faculty of knowng (a~n~nindriya) d) controlling faculty of one who has known fully (a~n~naataavindriya) * As the note in the English translation says: * b) above refers to ‘initial enlightenment’, i.e. the path of stream-attainment c) above refers to ‘intermediate enlightenment’, i.e. from the fruit of stream-attainement to the path of arahantship inc. d) above refers to ‘final enlightenment’, i.e., the fruit of arahantship. * A lot more detail is given in the Sammohavinodanii, the commentary to the Vibhanga on the indriyas. Under ‘plane’, it says in #560â€? * “ ‘As to plane'. The faculties of eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, femininity, masculinity, bodily pleasure, bodily pain and grief are of the sense sphere only. The mind faculty, life faculty, equanimity faculty and the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and understanding are included in the four planes. The joy faculty is included in three planes, namely, the sense sphere, the fine-material sphere and the supramundane. The three last are supramundane only. Thus should the ‘definition be known here as to plane’." * S: It seems clear here that pannindriya can be applied to panna which is mundane or supramundane, I think. ************ >T: Let me support my statement by two suttas. 1) MN 117: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta. T: The Buddha defined the true right view of the ariyans as follows. "And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path." T: The term "discernment" here is the rendition of 'pa~n~naa'. The faculty of discernment is 'pa~n~nindriya' , the strength of discernment is 'pa~n~naa-bala' , and the analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening is 'dhammavicaya- sambojjhanga' . In MN 117 these terms together define the supramundane right view. S: I agree with you that in this sutta, it is supramundane right view which is being referred to above – right view without the latent tendencies which have been eradicated. **** >T: 2) SN 48.10 Indriya-vibhanga Sutta. "And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away â€" noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment. " ............ ......... ......... ......... ......... I hope these excellent suttas help. *************** S: Yes, helpful. Again, I agree with you and thank you for quoting these good suttas as indicating how pannindriya refers to supramundane panna only in some contexts. Perhaps, in summary, we can say that sometimes: * a) pannindriya only refers to supramundane panna (as in certain suttas) b) pannindriya refers to mundane and supramundane panna (as in the fuller classifications in the Abhidhamma) c) pannindriya only refers to mundane panna. * I believe an example of the latter would be in the Satipatthana Sutta and commentary in the section under the 7 enlightenment factors. Here dhamma-vicaya (investigation of Dhamma) and the other enlightenment factors depend on the five indriyas and balas (saddhaa, viriya, sati, samaadhi and pa~n~na) to lead to the realization of the 4 Noble Truths. Without panna having become powerful and unshakable, the stages of insight and enlightenment cannot be attained. From the commentary (Soma transl): * “Six things lead to the arising of this enlightenment factor (dhammavicaya sambojjhaâ€?nga): Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties [indriyas]; avoiding the ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental objects.â€? S: Again, I appreciate the opportunity you’ve given me to reflect further on this topic, Tep. I’ll look forward to anything else you care to add to this or other threads. Metta, Sarah p.s Apologies in advance for brief replies only to anyone from now on as we’ll be travelling tomorrow eve. ========== #86372 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 11:25 pm Subject: Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching kenhowardau Hi Phil, Do you remember any of the discussions you have had at DSG? I know Nina, in particular, has devoted many hours to explaining basic Abhidhamma to you. You have been told about the supramundane path (Magga-citta) that directly knows the unconditioned dhamma, nibbana. You have been told about the mundane path (satipatthana) that directly knows conditioned dhammas. And you have been told about the path of correct intellectual understanding (patiyatti) that indirectly knows dhammas. And yet you remember almost nothing of what you have been told. Why is that? Ken H > > I think in the CMA, B. Bodhi also explains the path factors > according to individual cetasikas. I'm not sure, but I think it is > standard Abhidhamma, the supra-mundane path or something. Where K. > Sujin and her students go wrong on this point is completely > undervaluing the mundane path because the supra-mundane path is so > sexy. In fact, I may be wrong here, but I think they even deny there > is a mundane path involving very mundane factors. That right > thinking, for example, is *only* a momentary process involving the > function of cetasikas and does not have anything to do with the > content of thought. Wrong there. I just wish they would place more > importance on the very mundane factors that have to be developed > before these deep, deep single cetasika path factors can have any > real meaning other than being sexy to think about. #86373 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 28, 2008 11:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the causes of 4 great elements + space & consciousness 5-6th? sarahprocter... Hi Alex! --- On Wed, 28/5/08, Alex wrote: >A:Is there a sutta which says that 4 GE's are caused by citta kamma temp nutr ? ********* S: In the suttas, you have to extract the information with careful consideration. It's not just spelled out in a one-liner. If you want the one-liner, turn to the Abhidhamma. If you want to ignore the Abhidhamma and its commentaries, that's OK. You've just read 4 Nikayas. What did you extract from the many suttas on kamma, D.O., ahaara (nutriments), elements and so on? The information can all be found, but I'm not going to quote you 50 suttas when I can quote one line from the Abhidhamma, especially when I'm getting ready to go away:-). If you wish to travel the next-to-impossible Sutta-only path (excluding Patisambhiddamagga and other sutta texts as well, I assume), that's your problem:-). We don't have to play by your rules!! ********* >A: I used to believe that vinnana conditions other vinnana before I examined MN148 in detail. How can vinnana condition another vinnana if vinnana itself is due to two objects coming together and not being a single, monolithic and irreducible "thing" ? ********* S: If there wasn't a citta just gone, there couldn't be a citta now for a start. Vinnana (citta) conditions vinnana in many ways. Check CMA for more detail under conditions:-). It's true that there can't be seeing consciousness without a visible object and eye-base having arisen. However, other conditions are also necessary, primarily past kamma (cetana + vinnana + other supportive mental factors), the just gone eye-door adverting citta, the universal cetasikas including phassa (contact) and so on. *********** >A: From what is ahara dhatu made of? It cause can be traced to 4 GEs. ************* S: Nutritive essence (ojaa ruupa)is one of the eight rupas which arise in every kalapa and cannot be separated from each other. So the 4 GEs (great elements) cannot arise without four derived rupas (upaadaaya ruupas), including this one. The others are colour, odour and flavour. These kalapas arise and fall away rapidly, regardless of any experience of them or not. Nutritive essence is also one of the four causes for rupas to arise (along with kamma, citta and temperature, as discussed). When rupas originate from nutritive essence, they are referred to as 'aahaaraja ruupa' and it's the nutritive essence in food absorbed that is being referred to. You'll also have read about the four kinds of ahara paccaya (nutriment condition)in many suttas. In addition to the rupa (above), these also include contact (phassa), volition (cetanaa) and consciousness (vi~n~naa.na). Hope this helps. Metta, Sarah p.s When you have time, also take a look at Nina's books on Rupas and Conditions on-line (Zolag and other web-sites). ========= #86374 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 28, 2008 11:41 pm Subject: Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > I think in the CMA, B. Bodhi also explains the path factors > according to individual cetasikas. I'm not sure, but I think it is > standard Abhidhamma, the supra-mundane path or something. Your post is very funny; especially the "deeeepppppp" part! LOL! But I am looking for an exact quote from either the suttas, Abhidhamma, or Vism. which states that the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are individual cetasikas and always individual cetasikas. Metta, James #86375 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 29, 2008 1:01 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Overview of KS 1: Background sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Thanks for responding. We'd read pretty much the same things on A.Naeb, I believe. This also was along the lines I'd heard. --- On Tue, 27/5/08, upasaka@... wrote: H: > Thank you, Sarah. I had read a later edition of that same book, with a changed title, and, yes, it showed her as teaching one to maintain immobility, as possible, in order to see how pain regularly and naturally arises, and how we (usually subliminally) constantly switch position to dispell the discomfort. Now, that *could* be read as kind of an intentional intervention in things that is very intrusive and artificial,.. ******* S: Yes. I think that such practices are based on a)attachment and ideas of control, also b)ideas about 'posture' and 'body' instead of an understanding of no body at all, in reality. Really, there are just moments of seeing, bodily experience and lots and lots of thinking about what's been seen or experienced through the body-sense. We always think about our 'selves' and our 'bodies' and I believe this is why there is the section on kayanupassana first in the Satipatthana sutta. We find the body, my body, so important, when really it's just an idea. Nothing is owned at all! I believe such practices lead to more attachment rather than detachment, but I know we disagree here, so happy to let it drop. ********* H: >And what happens is that at least the first two of the noble truths of dukkha present themselves. ******** S: I think the first noble truth of dukkha refers to the inherent unsatisfactoriness in all conditioned dhammas, not just that which is taken for pain. Btw, you were having a discussion with Nina about conventional pain and pain in an absolute sense. As I understand it, what we take for pain is really painful (unpleasant) bodily feeling accompanying body consciousness. The rupas experienced through the body-sense are not painful because they don't experience anything. Interesting topics, but I'll have to leave them to others to pursue for now, I think. I'll read any of your further comments with interest, however, Howard. Metta, Sarah ======== #86376 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 29, 2008 1:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard. Old Age sarahprocter... Dear Han, A few more comments - >Han: .... Anyway, I will think about illness before I am sick. I will think about death before I die. I will think about age-related diseases (e.g. age-related macular-degeneratio n of the eye) before I have them. If “thinkingâ€? is something wrong, I cannot help it. ***** S: As I said, we'll think whatever there are conditions to think about. Awareness can arise anytime. I liked this paragraph from "Metta" which I found myself thinking about this morning when I read in the newspaper about the anger survivors from the Chinese earthquake felt towards various officials: "However, in reality our citta cannot be harmed by someone else at all, it can only be harmed by ourselves. Other people can only cause us to have bodily suffering; it is our own akusala citta which is the cause of mental suffering. Thus, instead of thinking of all the different things which cause us to be distressed we should cultivate mettaa and we should forgive other people. Then the citta is not disturbed and it is evident that nobody can do harm to our citta. " I also really like the extracts from the same book by A.Sujin which Nina posted in #85954 with regard to sleeping happily, conditioned by metta and without disturbance. "If there is anger remaining in our heart, the citta will be distured when we wak up; we are preoccupied with events we can't forget. In reality there is no self, being or person, but there are conditions for citta to be disturbed. As soon as we wake up sa~n~naa (remembrance) remembers the event which causes us to be annoyed. Or when we have done something wrong and we worry because of this, we cannot help thinking of this as soon as we wake up....." All so true! ********** H: >The Buddha said in AN 5.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta, "There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five? "'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' This is the first fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. "'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.' ... "'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.' ... "'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.' ... "'I am the owner of my actions,1 heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ... "These are the five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an05/an05. 057.than. html You may say that the Buddha asked us to reflect, not to think. To reflect and to think may be different, but one thing is sure. The Buddha asked us to reflect on (or to think) often BEFORE those events happen. Is reflecting on something before it happens, a story and a concept? ********** S: As I mentioned, reflecting is very real, regardless of what is reflected on and can be known as such. Some reflections are kusala, with yoniso manasikara, and some are not. Life is short, better to reflect wisely and develop more understanding of dhammas as anatta. "There is this moment now":-)). No need to respond to any of my notes when you need to rest your eyes, Han. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you again for all your excellent Patthana series to date. I found them very helpful indeed, especially some of the detail as in #85936 on nissaya paccaya. ========= #86377 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 29, 2008 2:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- On Tue, 27/5/08, Scott Duncan wrote: >Scott: Okay, the fact that viriya arises when pa~n~naa does determines whether it is 'right energy' - is that it? ***** S: I think we can say there are different kinds and levels of 'right energy'. Even if it's kusala, but not accompanied by panna, it's 'right'. What I said was that 'if there is right understanding, viriya has to be 'samma'. ****** >S: "Particular kinds of viriya (whether kusala or akusala), strengthen according to accumulations, i.e by nat. decisive support condition."\ >Scott: And this is a far cry from imagining that viriya is the same thing as someone just 'getting out there and doing something really diligently'. I take it that viriya functions first and foremost in the moment. ***** S: Yes, like all other namas.... ***** >S: "Let's put it another way. There cannot be Path-moment without samma-vayamo (right effort). It's an essential ingredient of the path. When it arises, it is due to right understanding and the other path factors as support." >Scott: And it functions to 'energize' the Path-moment. ********** S: Yes. Whenever there is right understanding, there is effort/energy already - energy for the development of right understanding. ******** >Scott: I was asking in particular reference to the notion of 'practise' and 'sitting' and all that. The very complexity of this should at least serve to suggest that the fact that one appears to be behaving very 'energetically' , is not the same as viriya. ***** S: Right - one's a 'situation' and the other is a mental fator that can't be judged by the appearance. ********* >S: "p.s rumour has it that you're about to start a particular sutta corner...I'll look forward to that. >Scott: True! Some more prep time, so maybe within a month or so. ******* S: Sounds interesting.... Metta, Sarah ======== #86378 From: "Phil" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 3:09 am Subject: Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching philofillet Hi Ken > You have been told about the supramundane path (Magga-citta) that > directly knows the unconditioned dhamma, nibbana. You have been told > about the mundane path (satipatthana) that directly knows conditioned > dhammas. And you have been told about the path of correct > intellectual understanding (patiyatti) that indirectly knows dhammas. I'm sure there is a mundane path that does not "directly know conditioned dhammas." If the only path required "directly knowing conditioned dhamms" all would be lost. But if that is what Abhidhamma says, that is fine, you can have Abhidhamma. I will take it as useful theory of the deepest of the Buddha's teaching if that is the case... Metta, Phil #86379 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 29, 2008 3:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching sarahprocter... Hi James, Phil & all, --- On Thu, 29/5/08, Phil wrote: > James: This is where K. Sujin completely forms her own religion. > She is no longer teaching Buddhism when she describes the eight > factors of the Noble Eightfold Path as cetasikas.... ***** >Phil: I think in the CMA, B. Bodhi also explains the path factors according to individual cetasikas. I'm not sure, but I think it is standard Abhidhamma,... ****** S: Yes. CMA #17 and Guide to #17, Compendium of Categories: "#17 Path Factors "Twelve path factors: 1) right view, 2) right intention, 3) right speech, 4) right action, 5) right livelihood, 6) right effort, 7) right mindfulness, 8) right concentration, 9) wrong view, 10) wrong intention, 11) wrong effort, 12) wrong concentration. "Guide to #17 "Here the word 'path' is used in the sense of that which leads to a particular destination, that is, towards the blissful states of existence, the woeful states, and Nibbaana. Of the twelve factors, the first eight lead to the blissful states and Nibbaana, the last four lead to the woeful states. These twelve path factors can be reduced to nine cetasikas. Right view is the cetasika of wisdom. Right intention, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration are, respectively, the cetasikas of inital application, energy, mindfulness, and one-pointedness found in the wholesome and indeterminate cittas with roots. Right speech, right action, and right livelihood are the three abstinences (virati) found collectively in the supramundane cittas and separately on particular occasions in mundane wholesome cittas. Of the four wrong path factors, wrong view is the cetasika of views, and is the only exclusively unwholesome cetasika among the path factors. The other three factors are, in order, the cetasikas of inital application, energy, and one-pointedness in the unwholesome cittas. There are no distinct path factors of wrong speech, wrong action, and wrong livelihood, since these are simply unwholesome modes of conduct motivated by defilements. There is no factor of wrong mindfulness, since mindfulness is an exclusively beautiful cetasika absent in the unwholesome cittas." Lots more on the right and wrong path in suttas too.... Metta, Sarah ======== #86380 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 29, 2008 12:34 am Subject: Re: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't ... upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/29/2008 12:01:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Howard, 2008/5/28 : > > I'm talking about a criterion for adequate explanation of the what and > how of "causality". The Buddha said merely that when a certain types of > conditions have arisen, then objectively and with regularity, a certain other type > of phenomenon arises. When there is this, there will be that. > I have seen no coherent criterion provided for what more there should > be. So called causational explanation in reality consists of nothing more than > statements of the sort "Z arose because of conditions W, X, and Y; and Y > arose because of conditions T, U, and V; etc, etc - with the lists continuing > until the listerner is satisfied. > Sorry to be nitpicky, but the Buddha always also included the reverse, namely that in the absence of a certain phenomena then another phenomena would not arise. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, sure - necessity was part of it. The conditions for a phenomenon are individually necessary, and, as a group, are sufficient. The features of "causality" are, as I've said, given by the Buddha as follows: objectivity" (tathataa) , "necessity" (avitathataa) , "invariability" (ana~n~nathataa) , and "conditionality" (idappaccayataa). (The third in the list is necessity. When the condition is missing from the group, the phenomenon does not arise.) ------------------------------------------------- That addition is critical to an understanding of causality. Else one could be forgiven for thinking that day causes night, simply because they always follow one another. But it is not the case that in the absence of night day doesn't occur, and that is why there is no causal link. Cheers Herman ============================= With metta, Howard #86381 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 4:45 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Overview of KS 1: Background egberdina Hi Sarah and Jon, 2008/5/29 sarah abbott : > Hi Howard, > > ******* > S: Yes. I think that such practices are based on a)attachment and ideas of control, also b)ideas about 'posture' and 'body' instead of an understanding of no body at all, in reality. > > Really, there are just moments of seeing, bodily experience and lots and lots of thinking about what's been seen or experienced through the body-sense. We always think about our 'selves' and our 'bodies' and I believe this is why there is the section on kayanupassana first in the Satipatthana sutta. We find the body, my body, so important, when really it's just an idea. Nothing is owned at all! > MN78 When this was said, the Blessed One said to Pañcakanga: "In that case, carpenter, then according to Uggahamana's words a stupid baby boy, lying on its back, is consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments. For even the thought 'body' does not occur to a stupid baby boy lying on its back....... I sincerely hope you both enjoy your trip to and stay to that lovely concept "die Schweiz". :-) Cheers Herman #86382 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 29, 2008 1:01 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Overview of KS 1: Background upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - In a message dated 5/29/2008 4:01:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Btw, you were having a discussion with Nina about conventional pain and pain in an absolute sense. As I understand it, what we take for pain is really painful (unpleasant) bodily feeling accompanying body consciousness. The rupas experienced through the body-sense are not painful because they don't experience anything. ============================ That's an odd way of talking about the matter, Sarah. We call bodily sensations painful that are felt (by vedana) as painful. That's human-speak, Sarah, to call something painful when it is felt by vedana as unpleasant. No one thinks that unpleasant bodily sensation is a pain-feeler. If anything, it is a "pain-giver." When someone says "My toe hurts", they mean that there is a sensation at that location felt as unpleasant, and not that the toe is a little "knower"! ;-)) With metta, Howard #86383 From: "connie" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 5:01 am Subject: Perfections Corner (167) nichiconn Dear Friends, the chapter continues: We can investigate the characteristic of viriya when we read the following explanation of the "Expositor" about the controlling faculty, the indriya, of viriya: "Viriya is the state of a courageous or energetic man, or it is the action of the energetic, or it is that which should be effected, carried out by method or suitable means. From its overcoming idleness it is a controlling faculty (indriya) in the sense of predominance... Its characteristic is strengthening or support." When viriya arises, someone has the courage to speak, to say what is right, or to act in a wholesome way, not being afraid of trouble, difficulties, or even of losing possessions and becoming poor. This is the characteristic of viriya. Or someone has the courage to explain with regard to the Dhamma the causes which bring their appropriate effects, without paying attention to the fact that he will not be liked by foolish people, or that others will have wrong understanding of his good intention. Someone who is courageous will do what is right with regard to worldly matters as well as Dhamma, because Dhamma is Dhamma: it cannot be changed, it is the truth. All people have viriya, but if the Dhamma had not been taught the characteristic and the different aspects of viriya could not be known. Viriya has been explained as controlling faculty, indriya, because it is predominant as a support for the conascent dhammas. Whenever kusala citta arises and someone performs an action with patience and diligence, viriya cetasika gives support at such a moment. One can perform one's task without becoming disheartened. As the "Expositor" explained, the controlling faculty of viriya has the characteristic of strengthening and giving support. .. to be continued, connie #86384 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 5:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [ dsg] Re: Kamma, was Death. egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/5/28 Jonothan Abbott : > Hi Herman > >> But I wonder whether it is important for you to reconcile this view of >> actions committed by a person with the teachings of anatta, which >> would deny that a person acts? And if you do believe it is important >> to reconcile those views, how do you do it? >> > > Put in those terms ('actions committed by a person' vs. 'denial that a > person acts') there is the appearance of an inconsistency. > > But these conventional formulations, while convenient for some purposes > (such as our earlier discusssion), are not precise renderings of the > teaching on kamma and anatta. > > The teaching on kamma says that deeds bring results. More precisely, it > says that the mental factor of 'intention' conditions the experiencing > of pleasant and unpleasant objects through the 5 sense-doors, and > worldly gains in general, within the same stream of consciousness. > > The teaching on anatta says that anatta is a characteristic of every > dhamma. > > In the teaching on anatta, 'dhamma' includes the dhammas mentioned in > connection with the teaching on kamma, namely, the mental factor of > 'intention' and the consciousness that is the experiencing of an objects > through any of the 5 sense-doors. > > Understood this way, I don't see any inconsistency to be reconciled. Do > you? > Thanks Jon. I see a huge inconsistency. Your explanation relies on the existence of an individual stream of consciousness, a closed system that conditions its own future conditions. That is a good enough definition for a self, in my books. Cheers Herman #86385 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 5:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Thanks for the reply and clarifications: Me: "How are you defining 'experiences' in the above?" H: "As something that is seen, hear, felt, tasted etc." Scott: You seem to be define 'experience' as 'object' and this can't be right - I've never read you to have said this before. Is this what you mean? I'd have thought you'd have said 'experience' *is* the seeing, hearing, etc. I'll wait on the clarification. H: "One of the interesting things about experience is that it is not definable. Probably because experience is not verbal, and all definition is in terms of something other than what is being defined. So I would not think that right energy would be definable, as such." Scott: Is experience knowable? H: "The way people learn which words are used to refer to non-definable experiences is by being judged to be having certain experiences and being told: you felt x, y z. For example, when a person is being instructed to silence their discursive mind, at some point of time the instructor may say, if your body is being flooded by a particular pleasant sensation, that is piti." Scott: Yes. Words that label experience are not that experience. H: "As to your questions about right effort, I haven't studied what other people refer to when they use the word. So I don't know..." Scott: Dhammasa"nga.ni ((p.13): "[13] What on that occasion is the faculty of energy (viriyindriya.m)? The mental inception of energy which there is on that occasion, the striving and the onward effort, the exertion and endeavour, the zeal and ardour, the vigour and fortitude, the state of unfaltering effort, the state of sustained desire, the state of unflinching endurance and solid grip of the burden, energy, energy as faculty, and as power, right endeavour - this is the energy that there then is." Atthasaalinii (p. 158): "Another view is that energy has exerting as its characteristic, strengthening the co-existent states as function, and opposition to giving way as manifestation.." H: "...With regards to Path moments, if they occur, it must be possible to differentiate them from other things that are experienced." Scott: Do you think that Path moments occur? H: "So how is a Path moment known? What qualities do they have?" Scott: My intellectual understanding is that it is pa~n~naa that knows. Are you asking about the qualities of the Path, as in of what does such a moment consist? Sincerely, Scott. #86386 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 6:00 am Subject: Friday 23 May - Some personal relections pannabahulo Dear Dhamma Friends, Last Friday 23rd May was, for me, the best Ajan Sujin group discussion ever. As it was a whole day venue (from 9.30am - 4pm) a considerable number of people showed up. Included was a monk of 32 vassas, the Ven Guttasila, from New Zealand. During the discussion he thanked Ajan Sujin for being the first person to show him the real Dhamma of the Lord Buddha. There were quite a number of people who have been students of Ajan's for 30 years or more. And a few of them of them do meditate. This I was pleased to learn for reasons that will become clear further on. I just want to offer a summary of the issues that were of immediate concern to me – so this is a very personalised account of events. Prior to that meeting I had been – for quite a while – paralysed with regard to how I should continue my life as a monk. This led me to post on another website where I felt I would get a more balanced perspective. I have come to know what to expect on DSG when certain questions are raised; and was looking for other – broader - points of view. I was showered with replies both on-line and in my personal mail. I was surprised at how many other people had been, or were in, similar difficulties to myself. And further, that it is a common experience that one comes to periods where one feels that no progress is being made and so looks for other meditation techniques or approaches to the practice of the Lord Buddha's Dhamma. In fact many regard this as an important bridge that one must cross. But some alternatives are completely out for me: Particularly this "Meditation vs NO meditation plus piles of books" approach which is followed by some who, I believe, wrongly interpret Ajan Sujin's position. Meditation is integral to the Lord Buddha's Dhamma. This is so obviously clear from the Sutta and the Vinaya Pitikas. I now know that – whatever I learn from Ajan Sujin – will serve to deepen my approach to Dhamma and not be a cause for me to cease `formal' meditation practice. An evening or two before leaving for Bangkok I went to speak to a lay meditation teacher who has taught and known me for close to twenty years. He listened to all I had to say. The various techniques I have practiced and the approach taken by Ajan Sujin. He just reminded me that when the Indriya are not balanced problems result. In my case it was clear that Confidence and Wisdom were out of balance. Too much wisdom and not enough confidence leads to greed; in my case I expected results from all the practice I had done and wasn't getting what I wanted. This had led to a paralysing doubt. Thus it was that I went to Bangkok and the Dhamma Foundation to really lay my cards on the table. Knowing that the Buddha gave discourses that were suitable to the people he was addressing, I have always been aware that it is only necessary to work with a few Suttas that one really has a feeling for. It's pointless to spend one's life wading through tomes without trying to put the Dhamma into practice. I am also very distrustful of a lot of the commentarial material I have come across; some of it reads like the words of the Christian apologists!! And I have a great suspicion about the Visuddhi Magga; the Ven Buddhagosa was a Bhramin and the work seems aimed at Bhraminical thought. We have no idea what his sources were and I personally find the book cold, analytical and void of compassion and loving kindness. Similarly I doubt the authenticity of the Abhidhamma Pitika; but, as I have said before, if it fits in generally with the Suttas and Vinaya then it deserves consideration. So in Bangkok I raised the point that the Buddha taught in both conventional and Paramattha terms - and sometimes a mixture of both - and that both ways could equally lead to arahantship.(So long as, when using conventional language one knew that the 'I' did not refer to something that was lasting and permanent). Further, that either one of those ways was not superior or inferior to the other. They were like using different dialects. Ajan seemed to agree with that. Also, that one needed to use conventional truth to overcome the notion of self; as a friend said in Chiang Mai, "We need to have a sense of self to overcome self." The Ven Guttasila pointed out that there was a Sutta in which Sariputtha says that we must use the "I am" conceit to overcome the "I am" conceit. A lot of discussion then followed about present moment realities. Quite frankly, I see little difference between what Ajan Sujin is teaching and what is referred to as `Cittanupassana' as far as effort is concerned. But there is a difference in that Ajan Sujin does pay attention to the external object as well, rather than just focussing on one's mental activity. But, with so many points of view being expressed, it was difficult to follow any one line of reasoning thoroughly. Then, after an amazing lunch, we got down to looking at the Sattipathana Sutta with regard to the importance of Anapanasati which runs throughout the Buddha's teaching. This was an issue that the Ven Guttasila particularly wanted to deal with. So much came up in the discussions; the atmosphere was completely open, free and safe. The result was a tremendous amount of input from so many people; as Robert later remarked, there were so many themes raised that it would need another 3 or 4 days to discuss them. Everyone seemed completely involved; the energy and enthusiasm led to smaller groups discussing their burning issues within the context of the whole discussion. Ajan herself went way overtime because she was also very involved in the issues raised. Finally she was reminded of the time and we adjourned to a nearby coffee-house to continue. Later, on reflection, I realised that the difficulty I had had in grasping what Ajan was saying about present moment realities was because I already understood. All those years of meditation were not in vain: I realised later that I do take Nama and Rupa for granted as realities; "I" also know that there is no "I" in the sense of an enduring entity. Of course I know that the three characteristics of all phenomena are present at every moment. And that previous meditation practice did lead – undeniably – to Vipassana nanas. But, just like every Dhamma practitioner - and like all insight meditators - the important thing is to facilitate the deepening of that understanding as much as possible. An analogy came to mind to explain what I am trying to express. When I was an undergraduate philosophy student, one of my courses was the `Philosophy of science'. On one occasion I had to write an essay on some compare/contrast subject variation on Newton's and Einstein's view of time and space. I read Einstein's paper on `The Relativity of Time and Space' and excited and stimulated to an incredible degree. But when I read Newton on the nature of "Absolute Time and Space" I couldn't see what he was getting at. It seemed that he had absolutely nothing to say. I read and re-read his paper several times and then left it for a while. When I re-read it yet again the penny dropped. The reason that Newton seemed to have nothing to say was because I had been born into a place and time where Newton's world view underpinned daily experience. What was revolutionary in his time had become normality for us. In the centuries since, Newtonian ideas had become the shared and accepted ways of understanding the world. In a similar way, all those years of insight meditation may just have led to the understanding that Ajan Sujin is driving at. But I couldn't get it because I was looking for something else; something special: Just as I was with my reading of Newton. Of course that doesn't mean that I see – with understanding – every present moment reality. All I am saying is that the ground work has already started by all those years of insight meditation and by study. I would like to thank all those who made last Friday possible. You really are such a wonderful group of people. Maybe I will see many of you again in the next few weeks; but definitely at the end of August. With metta and every blessing, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu. #86387 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 29, 2008 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Friday 23 May - Some personal relections sarahprocter... Dear Ven P., Many thanks for all your personal reflections and excellent report! Metta, Sarah --- On Thu, 29/5/08, pannabahulo wrote: <....> #86388 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 6:34 am Subject: Overview of KS - these are great postings and better than 'Harry Potter'. pannabahulo Dear everyone (especially James), This series is GREAT.You've gotta best seller here James!! Nothing since the 'Harry Potter' series has kept me in so much suspense!! When is 'Overview 4' being released? Seriously, you've certainly stirred up a whole hornets nest here.I'm laughing so much my body's aching. Haven't had time to wade through all the replies yet. Will do.(But I won't get involved as I'm really busy at the moment). Keep 'em coming.Nothing like a bit of healthy dispute and - judging by some of the replies I've read - a roaring comedy to boot. I'm thoroughly enjoying the show, With metta, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu #86389 From: "Alex" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 8:45 am Subject: Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > I think in the CMA, B. Bodhi also explains the path factors > > according to individual cetasikas. I'm not sure, but I think it is > > standard Abhidhamma, the supra-mundane path or something. > > Your post is very funny; especially the "deeeepppppp" part! LOL! But I > am looking for an exact quote from either the suttas, Abhidhamma, or > Vism. which states that the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are > individual cetasikas and always individual cetasikas. > > Metta, > James > Well in suttas such as MN70 and others the holy people (starting from faith followers) are walking, talking and generally lasting far more than mere mind moment. ""And what is the individual who is a Dhamma-follower? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, nor — having seen with discernment — are his fermentations ended. But with a [sufficient] measure of reflection through discernment he has come to an agreement with the teachings proclaimed by the Tathagata. And he has these qualities: the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, & the faculty of discernment. This is called an individual who is a Dhamma-follower.9 Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html#t-9 #86390 From: "Alex" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 9:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the causes of 4 great elements + space & consciousness 5-6th? truth_aerator Hello Sarah! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex! > > --- On Wed, 28/5/08, Alex wrote: > >A:Is there a sutta which says that 4 GE's are caused by citta kamma > temp nutr ? > ********* > S: In the suttas, you have to extract the information with careful consideration. It's not just spelled out in a one-liner. >>>> I've read all 4 Nikayas so I try to sum up info from this and that suttas. It is true that if you read few suttas, some of them you will not understand due to lack of information, but when you read more... Anyhow. Temp = fire element so what we can say is that fire causes more fire (if there is air, and either watery or sold fuel). Again ANY sort of nutrition can be traced back to 4 GE (which are anicca, dukkha anatta). > > If you want to ignore the Abhidhamma and its commentaries, that's OK. You've just read 4 Nikayas. What did you extract from the many suttas on kamma, D.O., ahaara (nutriments), elements and so on? >>> Unless I have forgot some sutta, I do remember that I cannot trace anything more basic than 4 GE + Avijja in its basic form. >>> If you wish to travel the next-to-impossible Sutta-only path (excluding Patisambhiddamagga and other sutta texts as well, I assume), that's your problem:-). We don't have to play by your rules!! > ********* I am not asking you to read sutta only. I would like that because it would be so beneficial to you, but considering there is no full control, even of "oneself" , what do I expect? > >A: I used to believe that vinnana conditions other vinnana before I examined MN148 in detail. How can vinnana condition another vinnana if vinnana itself is due to two objects coming together and not being > a single, monolithic and irreducible "thing" ? > ********* > S: If there wasn't a citta just gone, there couldn't be a citta now for a start. >>>> In the suttas such as MN148 it doesn't state that past citta or vinnana is required for: (internal base + external rupa) to make consciousness arise! And even if it did, then I'd ask: "and what is the ultimate constitution of vinnana" ?... (internal base + external rupa)! > > >A: From what is ahara dhatu made of? It cause can be traced to 4 GEs. > ************* > S: Nutritive essence (ojaa ruupa)is one of the eight rupas which arise in every kalapa and cannot be separated from each other. So the 4 GEs (great elements) cannot arise without four derived rupas (upaadaaya ruupas), including this one. The others are colour, odour and flavour. These kalapas arise and fall away rapidly, regardless of any experience of them or not. >>>> None of these rupas are not rupas. They are minute-particulars of general term "GE" or Rupa. > You'll also have read about the four kinds of ahara paccaya (nutriment condition)in many suttas. In addition to the rupa (above), these also include contact (phassa), volition (cetanaa) and consciousness (vi~n~naa.na). > Hope this helps. > ========= Yeh I remember this to. However the question is: In the ahara paccaya what is the cause of: rupa, phassa, cetanaa, vinnana? Turning to MN106 we see that rupa is caused by rupa vinnana= internal sense organ + external rupa (both are specific and functional arrangements of rupa) Phassa= is the emergent property of two rupas (internal+external) together as a whole. Volition (belongs to sankhara aggregate or Nama) is caused by contact. =========================== "Monk, the four great existents (earth, water, fire, & wind) are the cause, the four great existents the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of form. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of feeling. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of perception. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of fabrications. Name-&-form is the cause, name-&-form the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of consciousness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.109.than.html Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect. "And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html The flowcharts do point at "Rupa" being the most basic underlying reality. Best wishes, Thank you Sarah for your reply Alex #86391 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 29, 2008 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Friday 23 May - Some personal relections upasaka_howard Dear Bhante - Your post was very interesting for me to read, and there is much in it that I can understand and sympathize with. The one part to which I had a clear negative reaction to was the following: Too much wisdom and not enough confidence leads to greed; in my case I expected results from all the practice I had done and wasn't getting what I wanted. This had led to a paralysing doubt. =============================== I'm not clear on what you mean by 'wisdom' here, but, as I see it, in any kusala sense of the word, I don't believe there CAN be "too much wisdom." Wisdom breeds calm, calm in turn supports wisdom, and (non-egoistic) confidence is supported by each. Wisdom, in any genuine sense, conduces only to the good. Wisdom and factual knowledge are not the same. Factual knowledge can be used well or in quite the opposite way, but the faculty of wisdom purifies, clarifies, and ennobles. With metta, Howard #86392 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 12:33 pm Subject: Genuine Goodwill! bhikkhu0 Friends: Genuine Goodwill Blazes and Shines! The blessed Buddha once said: Among tigers, lions, leopards & bears I lived in the jungle. No one was frightened of me, nor did I fear anyone. Uplifted by such universal friendliness, I enjoyed the forest. Finding great solace in such sweetly silenced solitude… Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of all bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend of the many-footed! Anguttara Nikaya IV 67 May all creatures, all breathing things, all beings one and all, without exception, experience good fortune only. May they not fall into any harm. Anguttara Nikaya II 72 With good will for the entire cosmos, cultivate a limitless heart & mind: Beaming above, below, & all around, unobstructed, without trace of hostility. Sutta Nipata I More good even better here ;-) http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Blazing_Goodwill.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Good-Will_Again.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_Buddha_on_Noble_Frienship.htm Genuine Goodwill! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #86393 From: "Phil" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 5:08 pm Subject: Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching philofillet Hi James > But I > am looking for an exact quote from either the suttas, Abhidhamma, or > Vism. which states that the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are > individual cetasikas and always individual cetasikas. Oh, ok. "Always" individual cetasikas, no you won't find that. But as for them being individual cetasikas, most definitely yes, according to Abhidhamma. I won't dig out my CMA because I guess Sarah has already clarified. But AS is not creating her own religion when she says path factors are individual cetasikas, she's just taking it from Abhidhamma. Maybe by underappreciating the mundane path factors that are not individual cetasikas, yes. I hope this won't be the only or even the main thrust of your "faulty teaching" section because I think there are many more important ones. The lack of an emphasis on mindfulness of the body (it should be first and predominate) is a big one off the top of my head, along with a weird emphasis on sakkaya ditthi as the main wrong view when as we know the Buddha emphasis a more mundane version. (I forget the Pali, the one about not believing there are results of deeds etc - *that* is wrong view, not not-having the right view that sees through sakkaya ditthi, i.e the right view of the ariyan. She also is wrong when she says that mindfulness of breathing should not be tried because it is too difficult and advanced. Difficult to master, yes, but she ignores a passage in Vism that says "the clansman who is a beginner" practices in this way (very, very detailed instructions) and that the breath as object of meditation is to be approached in the same way as the ringing of a gong, at first it is gross and obvious and then more subtle... She also is wrong about the "clinging to rules and rites" wrong view that she and her students love to bash us over the head with so often. (Again, forget the Pali.) The Buddha talks about this form of clinging as believing in fire rites, animal sacrifice and so on, the forms of ritual that were common in his day. Nowhere does he talk about clinging to trying to have sati. I think you asked people to come up with some support for this sin of clinging to having sati, didn't you? I have not yet come across anything of the sort, anything where the BUddha talks about trying to have sati as being "clinging to rules and rites." There are good grounds for questioning the suitability for meditating in this day and age, they are in the "impediments" sectin of Vism, such things as our environment and so on. Those are the valid grounds on which she should ask meditators to reflect on whether their practice is suited to their lifestyle, not the non-existent sin of trying to have sati. Also she is very poor at encouraging people to avoid transgression. There is all this sexiness about seeing the momentariness of akusala that has already fallen away, etc. The Buddha gives very stern, very strong encouragement about avoiding transgression and would never ever water down his encouragement because of the awful sin of self at work wanting to be a better person etc blah blah blah. Just a few thoughts. If you want to pick up on them, please do. If you aren't familiar with the "clansman who is a beginner" and resonating of the gong references from Vism, please mail me off-list and I'll tell you where they are. I might not see if you ask me here because I am not always reading all posts. (THough, as the Ven. P said, perhaps in an indirectly insulting way since he suggested they are just comedy which they are not, your posts are very entertaining, as always, and can give her students practice with patience and reflection. Metta, Phil #86394 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 6:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Brief: What We Know Versus What We Infer egberdina Hi Howard, Alex and TG, 2008/5/28 : > Hi, Alex, TG, Herman, and all - > > It seems to me that it is important to distinguish what we know in the > sense of directly experience from what we infer. In the matter of > materialistic reductionism (and also the mind-stuff reductionism of idealism), each > presuming a world of "substance" beyond experience and that underlies and is the > basis of experience, that is solely inferred. What is directly given includes > all aspects of experience, some being material (rupic), and some mental > (namic). All that we can rely on with certainty, it seems to me, is experiential > content as opposed to inferential theory. As I see the matter, the Buddha > adopted that radical empiricist perspective when he said "ehipassiko," and when > he taught the Kalaka Sutta and the Bahiya Sutta. I think Howard's initial point is a good one, and I think everyone's comments have been very helpful and constructive. I'd like to add a little bit about what it is that is "directly given". From MN43 "Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them." It is not possible to discern, without inference, what in the present moment is there as sense data, and what is remembered or computed. The contribution of memory to perception is immeasurable. The model of a rupa contacting a sense base resulting in a discreet experience is seriously limited in what it can explain, and fails if it predicts that it is possible to experience sense data in isolation. MN43 confirms this. For those who pursue awareness of the present moment as being of some salutary value, it may be sobering to understand that there is only a re-membered present. Cheers Herman #86395 From: "Tep" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 6:50 pm Subject: Re: Panna As Indriya dhammanusarin Dear Sarah, - Thank you for taking time off your busy schedule to discuss the meanings of pa~n~nindriya in the Suttanta Pitaka & the Abhidhamma Pitaka with me. >Sarah: >If you look at the Vibhanga (above) in ch. 5 ‘Analysis of the Controlling Faculties’, it lists the 22 indriyas at the beginning of the chapter. The last four of these are given as: * a) controlling faculty of wisdom (pa~n~nindriya) b) controlling faculty of ‘I am knowing the unknown’ (ana~n~naata~n~nassaamiitindriya) c) controlling faculty of knowng (a~n~nindriya) d) controlling faculty of one who has known fully (a~n~naataavindriya) * T: Yes, I have looked it up and found the items a) through d) in the Thai version too. ........................ >Sarah: Perhaps, in summary, we can say that sometimes: * a) pannindriya only refers to supramundane panna (as in certain suttas) b) pannindriya refers to mundane and supramundane panna (as in the fuller classifications in the Abhidhamma) c) pannindriya only refers to mundane panna. * T: The deductions b) and c) are not yet clear to me. So, will you be kind enough to quote "the fuller classifications in the Abhidhamma" which shows that "pannindriya refers to mundane and supramundane panna"? ....................... > S: I believe an example of the latter would be in the Satipatthana Sutta and commentary in the section under the 7 enlightenment factors. T: It will be very helpful to me if you can cite the passage in the Satipatthana Sutta which shows why "pannindriya only refers to mundane panna". Thank you in advance, Sarah. ........................ > S: Here dhamma-vicaya (investigation of Dhamma) and the other enlightenment factors depend on the five indriyas and balas (saddhaa, viriya, sati, samaadhi and pa~n~na) to lead to the realization of the 4 Noble Truths. Without panna having become powerful and unshakable, the stages of insight and enlightenment cannot be attained. T: I agree with you completely. ........................ >Sarah: From the commentary (Soma transl): * “Six things lead to the arising of this enlightenment factor (dhammavicaya sambojjhaâ€?nga): Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties [indriyas]; avoiding the ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental objects.â€? T: Sounds good to me! Yes, these six things clearly support the development of dhammavicaya sambojjhanga. But this commentary is not directly related to the main discussion, I think. Regards, Tep === #86396 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 5:33 pm Subject: Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi James > > > But I > > am looking for an exact quote from either the suttas, Abhidhamma, > or > > Vism. which states that the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path > are > > individual cetasikas and always individual cetasikas. > > > Oh, ok. "Always" individual cetasikas, no you won't find that. But > as for them being individual cetasikas, most definitely yes, > according to Abhidhamma. I won't dig out my CMA because I guess > Sarah has already clarified. James: What Sarah quoted was from the "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" which isn't the Abhidhamma proper, it is one monk's interpretation of the Abhidhamma. Additionally, what is says is that the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path CAN be seen to correspond to certain individual cetasikas. This is a far cry from saying, point blank, the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are cetasikas. Quite a lot hinges on this so I brough up this issue. > > But AS is not creating her own religion when she says path > factors are individual cetasikas, she's just taking it from > Abhidhamma. Maybe by underappreciating the mundane path factors that > are not individual cetasikas, yes. > > I hope this won't be the only or even the main thrust of > your "faulty teaching" section because I think there are many more > important ones. The lack of an emphasis on mindfulness of the body > (it should be first and predominate) is a big one off the top of my > head, along with a weird emphasis on sakkaya ditthi as the main > wrong view when as we know the Buddha emphasis a more mundane > version. (I forget the Pali, the one about not believing there are > results of deeds etc - *that* is wrong view, not not-having the > right view that sees through sakkaya ditthi, i.e the right view of > the ariyan. > > She also is wrong when she says that mindfulness of breathing > should not be tried because it is too difficult and advanced. > Difficult to master, yes, but she ignores a passage in Vism that > says "the clansman who is a beginner" practices in this way (very, > very detailed instructions) and that the breath as object of > meditation is to be approached in the same way as the ringing of a > gong, at first it is gross and obvious and then more subtle... > > She also is wrong about the "clinging to rules and rites" wrong > view that she and her students love to bash us over the head with so > often. (Again, forget the Pali.) The Buddha talks about this form of > clinging as believing in fire rites, animal sacrifice and so on, the > forms of ritual that were common in his day. Nowhere does he talk > about clinging to trying to have sati. I think you asked people to > come up with some support for this sin of clinging to having sati, > didn't you? I have not yet come across anything of the sort, > anything where the BUddha talks about trying to have sati as > being "clinging to rules and rites." There are good grounds for > questioning the suitability for meditating in this day and age, they > are in the "impediments" sectin of Vism, such things as our > environment and so on. Those are the valid grounds on which she > should ask meditators to reflect on whether their practice is suited > to their lifestyle, not the non-existent sin of trying to have sati. > > Also she is very poor at encouraging people to avoid > transgression. There is all this sexiness about seeing the > momentariness of akusala that has already fallen away, etc. The > Buddha gives very stern, very strong encouragement about avoiding > transgression and would never ever water down his encouragement > because of the awful sin of self at work wanting to be a better > person etc blah blah blah. > > Just a few thoughts. If you want to pick up on them, please do. > If you aren't familiar with the "clansman who is a beginner" and > resonating of the gong references from Vism, please mail me off- list > and I'll tell you where they are. I might not see if you ask me here > because I am not always reading all posts. James: These are all pretty good points, but I wanted to boil things down to the basics. (THough, as the Ven. P > said, perhaps in an indirectly insulting way since he suggested they > are just comedy which they are not, your posts are very > entertaining, as always, and can give her students practice with > patience and reflection. James: I am not going to post anything else on this series or respond to anymore posts. If me and my posts are seen as a big joke, and treated with disrespect, then there is no reason for me to post. Harry Potter has left the building! :-) > > Metta, > > Phil > Metta, James #86397 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 7:18 pm Subject: Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching scottduncan2 Dear James, Regarding: James: I am not going to post anything else on this series or respond to anymore posts. If me and my posts are seen as a big joke, and treated with disrespect, then there is no reason for me to post...." Scott: I see no reason why you should stop. You must have expected at least a little opposition. Courage, man! Stiff upper lip and all that. Carry On Up the Khyber. Sincerely, Scott. #86398 From: "Alex" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 7:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Brief: What We Know Versus What We Infer truth_aerator Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Howard, Alex and TG, > > From MN43 > > "Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not > disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, > to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one > perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these > qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having > separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among > them." > > It is not possible to discern, without inference, what in the present moment is there as sense data, and what is remembered or computed. The contribution of memory to perception is immeasurable. >>>> IMHO what Buddha is stating is that both feeling/perc/consc are interlinked and not separatable. Ex: if you feel something, then you are conscious of that feeling, and that feeling can be labelled (percieved). If you are percieving something, then you have a feeling happening (even a neutral one) + one is nesseserily conscious. Although let us remember the primacy of rupa in conditonality. Ultimately Vinnana (separate from rupa) cannot condition anything by itself. It has no resistence. It can't really move matter which has resistence. Physical cause-effect is like one ball hitting another ball. The other ball will move through physical force. Thus matter affecting matter can be understood. But disembodied thought doesn't weight anything, it is like throwing a cotton ball at a 100 pound stone. It won't move. Furthermore, where in space is the thought or consciousness located? At which point exactly does it make contact with matter??? Rupa has a totally different character. It is not pop-psychology like feeling this or that - although I believe that analysis of feelings IS important. Rupa carries an OBJECTIVE character from which feelings and co. are derived. Consc/feel/perc do exist as derivatives both in Buddha's awakened teaching and modern science that has shown beyond any reasonable doubt the nessesity of physical base (brain) for the mind. Buddha has also like to focus on the BODY quite a bit and the feelings that it contain (dependent on it of course). >>>>>>>>>>>> The model of a > rupa contacting a sense base resulting in a discreet experience is > seriously limited in what it can explain, and fails if it predicts > that it is possible to experience sense data in isolation. >>>> Materialism achieves a lot (although I don't agree with it 100%). Idealism & co. are fun to discuss and use their infallible trump card arguments, but all of it is generally useless speculation. How much things have been invented through Idealism? The fact that we have access to so much Buddha's teaching couldn't happen if scientists were idealists. Best wishes, IMHO, Alex #86399 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu May 29, 2008 7:31 pm Subject: Re: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re: Sights and Seeing and Self - Citta ultimately doesn't exist egberdina Hi Alex, 2008/5/28 Alex : > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: >> Hi again, Alex - >> >> In a message dated 5/27/2008 8:55:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> upasaka@... writes: >> >> Howard: >> I think this quest for explanation is incoherent, for this is no >> criterion for what would constitute explanation. >> ====================== >> The second 'this' in the foregoing should be 'there'. >> >> >> With metta, >> Howard >> > > > Criteria for truthful explanation? Something that matches > observational data, something that explains things and can be used to > make predictions on what will happen if you do this or that. And of > course something that really nails the point of anatta and > insubstentiality and revulsion into this protein existence. I agree with you, Alex. Repeatability is the crux of the matter. It is impossible to explain events that only occur once, but if there is an explanation for an event, and the event cannot be reproduced using that explanation, then the explanation needs a bit more work, or get discarded. Cheers Herman