#88600 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 10:53 am Subject: Re:confessions of a bhikkhu moellerdieter Dear Venerable Pannabahulo, thanks for the frank sharing of your feelings and considerations, hopefully you will get some useful feedbacks . I wonder how far you have come into contact with masters of the Thai Forest tradition, e.g. the schools of Ajahn Buddhadasa , Ajahn Cha or Phra Maha Boowa to name a few (useful to see http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/index.htm ) , which is a different Dhamma approach than that dominating the scholarly DSG discussions and likely representing the more silent Theravada majority . I mean ,what Theravadins unite is the Pali Canon , it is up to the student to choose one's preference for study , isn't It ? B.T.W. I watched your recommended video : http://videos.komando.com/2008/06/26/christian-the-lion/ lovely indeed !.... but then , recognizing by chance an advertisement at the right side of the page ' North Idaho Lion Hunts ' , I felt being brought back to reality : http://www.angelfire.com/id/buckhunting/lion.html with Metta Dieter . #88601 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 11:49 am Subject: Re: kayagatasati .. Relentless Training ... dhammanusarin Hi Jon and all, - I hope this discussion is fruitful. If it is, then it will be one more of the few occasions that ever happened to me here. .......................... >Jon: The position as I understand it is that right view must arise in order for there to be insight. And the main conditions for right view to arise (apart from existing accumulations of right view, of course) are the hearing of the teachings and reflection on what has been heard and understood. T: Right view is an insight. The conditions that support right view are : understanding of the dhammas (see the list below), their origin, their cessation, and the way (path: patipada, magga) leading to their cessation. The dhammas to be understood are as follows: the wholesome and the unwholesome; nutriment; the four noble truths; ageing & death and all other links of the DO from birth up to ignorance. [MN 9] ....................... > Tep: Water as nutriment for plants' growth, as well as concentration > as nutriment for insight development, has to be balanced with other > supporting conditions in order that faster growth can be expected. Jon: Well, I don't see it as a matter of "faster growth", but of simply understanding correctly the conditions for growth. T: If the practitioner's goal is "7 days to 7 years" as stated in Mahasatipatthana Sutta, which is a lot faster than "slowly accumulating panna" for aeons, then s/he has to be smart enough to support his/her practice with right nutriments with a sense of urgency so that they give "faster growth" ! It is indeed the sense of urgency and relentless training that condition faster growth. For example : "And if, in the monk recollecting the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha in this way, equanimity based on what is skillful is not established, he feels apprehensive at that and gives rise to a sense of urgency: 'It is a loss for me, not a gain; ill-gotten for me, not well-gotten, that when I recollect the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha in this way, equanimity based on what is skillful is not established within me.' [MN 28] "Thus you should train yourselves: ' We will relentlessly exert ourselves, [thinking,] "Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence." ' That's how you should train yourselves." [AN 2.5: Appativana Sutta. Relentlessly] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.005.than.html Tep === #88602 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 12:05 pm Subject: Re: [was Kayagatasati] Knowledge of Suffering = Right View dhammanusarin Hi, Jon and All - The following paragraph is taken from The Path of Discrimination, Treatise I -- just for refreshing your mind. Ptsm, I, 568. Knowledge in one who possesses the path is knowledge of suffering and it is knowledge of the origin of suffering and it is knowledge of the cessation of suffering and it is knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of sufferring. Herein, what is knowledge of suffering? Any understanding, act-of-understanding, investigation, reinvestigation, investigation-of-ideas (dhamma-vicara), noting, noticing, taking notice, learning, skill, cleverness, estimation, ratiocination, scrutiny, over-all-ness, good-sense, piloting, insight (vipassanaa), full-awareness, spur, understanding(pa~n~naa), understanding as faculty (paññindriya), understanding as power, understanding as weapon, understanding as stronghold, understanding as light, understanding as illumination, understanding as lighting up, understanding as treasure, non-delusion, investigation of ideas, right view(sammaaditthi), that arises contingent upon suffering: this is called knowledge of suffering (cf. Dhs 16). ...................................... T: In summary: Knowledge is understanding(panna) of dhammas, e.g. the Four Noble Truths. Knowledge of dukkha is the same as vipassana, full awareness, and right view that arise contingent upon dukkha (I think this means 'with dukkha as the mind-object'). Does anybody care to comment? Yours truly, Tep === #88603 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 8:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati .. Relentless Training ... upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Jon) - In a message dated 8/1/2008 2:49:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes, quite excellently and to much the point, IMO: Jon: Well, I don't see it as a matter of "faster growth", but of simply understanding correctly the conditions for growth. T: If the practitioner's goal is "7 days to 7 years" as stated in Mahasatipatthana Sutta, which is a lot faster than "slowly accumulating panna" for aeons, then s/he has to be smart enough to support his/her practice with right nutriments with a sense of urgency so that they give "faster growth" ! It is indeed the sense of urgency and relentless training that condition faster growth. For example : "And if, in the monk recollecting the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha in this way, equanimity based on what is skillful is not established, he feels apprehensive at that and gives rise to a sense of urgency: 'It is a loss for me, not a gain; ill-gotten for me, not well-gotten, that when I recollect the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha in this way, equanimity based on what is skillful is not established within me.' [MN 28] "Thus you should train yourselves: ' We will relentlessly exert ourselves, [thinking,] "Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence." ' That's how you should train yourselves." [AN 2.5: Appativana Sutta. Relentlessly] ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, what is unclear about that? Is this not conventional striving of the strongest sort that is called for here by the Buddha? Does it make sense to scour the commentaries to find some exotic reformulation that contorts this into something entirely different? ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.005.than.html Tep ============================ With metta, Howard #88604 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 12:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiitisutta Corner DN 33 1.9 (8-11), Commentary, part 1. nilovg Part 1. Sutta:Proficiency as to offences and restoration from them. Aapattikusalataa ca aapattivu.t.thaanakusalataa ca. -------------- Co: There are five or seven groups relating to the Disciplinary Rules of the Sangha. Proficiency in these matters means wisdom, discernment. ------- Pali: Aapattikusalataati ‘‘pa~ncapi aapattikkhandhaa aapattiyo, sattapi aapattikkhandhaa aapattiyo. Yaa taasa.m aapattiina.m aapattikusalataa pa~n~naa pajaananaa’’ti (dha. sa. 1336) eva.m vutto aapattikusalabhaavo. --------- Co: Proficiency in restoration from them means wisdom, discernment. Pa~n~naa which defines the restoration from offenses by the carrying out of an official act (kammavaaca). ----- Pali: Aapattivu.t.thaanakusalataati ‘‘yaa taahi aapattiihi vu.t.thaanakusalataa pa~n~naa pajaananaa’’ti (dha. sa. Pali: 1329) eva.m vuttaa saha kammavaacaaya aapattiihi vu.t.thaanaparicchedajaananaa pa~n~naa. ---------- The Subco elaborates on the official act, kammavaacaa. The bhikkhu has to confess his offense, the transgression, the deed through body or through speech. --------- We read in the “Atthasaalini” (Suttanta Couplets, 394): <’The five groups of offences’:- in the exposition of the Paatimokkha Table of Contents these five offenses are Paaraajika, Sa”nghaadisesa, Paacittiya, Paa.tidesaniiya, Dukkata.> The Atthsaalini states as to the seven groups of offences, in the Vinaya-exposition, are these five and in addition the Thullacaya and the Dubbhaasita. We read: -------- N: These offences are of different degrees. Paaraajika includes the gravest offences needing expulsion from the Sangha. Sa”nghaadisesa is grave, needing a formal meeting of the Sangha. Dukkata are offences of wrong doing. Emerging from offences means expiation, release from an offence. The Dhammasangani and the Commentary to the Sangiitisutta mention at the end: pa~n~naa, discernment (pa~n~naa pajaananaa’’ti). The Buddha gave the rules with great wisdom and out of compassion. There are so many details to them because he had to think of each possibility of transgression, so that there would not be any doubt. For the monk, pa~n~naa is also needed to understand the Vinaya rules. Their sole purpose is helping the monk to live like an arahat and to eventually attain arahatship. --------------------------- (to be continued) Nina. #88605 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 1:10 pm Subject: Relentless Training: No Retreat, No Surrender! No pain, no gain! truth_aerator Hi Tep, Jon and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > > Hi Jon and all, - > > I hope this discussion is fruitful. If it is, then it will be one > more of the few occasions that ever happened to me here. > .......................... > > >Jon: The position as I understand it is that right view must arise > in order for there to be insight. > And the main conditions for right view to arise (apart from >existing > accumulations of right view, of course) are the hearing of the > teachings and reflection on what has been heard and understood. If one doesn't enage in N8P as much as possible, then there will never be accumulations! As I understand suttas such as anusota, is that for the worldlings either good or bad qualities accumulate. If one doesn't "strive" for kusala states, akusala states rush in and accumulate. Of course the action of engaging and training (sekha) is anatta. > T: Right view is an insight. The conditions that support right view > are : understanding of the dhammas (see the list below), their > origin, their cessation, and the way (path: patipada, magga) >leading > to their cessation. > > The dhammas to be understood are as follows: the wholesome and the > unwholesome; nutriment; the four noble truths; ageing & death and >all other links of the DO from birth up to ignorance. [MN 9] > ....................... > > > Tep: Water as nutriment for plants' growth, as well as >concentration as nutriment for insight development, has to be >balanced with other > > supporting conditions in order that faster growth can be expected. > I think that it is not "balancing out" as much as developing all faculties to the max. (see indriya samyutta sutta where it says that an Arahant has fully developed faculties, and lesser noble people have lesser developed faculties). > Jon: Well, I don't see it as a matter of "faster growth", but of > simply understanding correctly the conditions for growth. > Simply "understanding" swimming will NOT help one to actually swim when the ship is sinking. Simply "understanding" will not remove the subtle atta view when something happens. > T: If the practitioner's goal is "7 days to 7 years" as stated in > Mahasatipatthana Sutta, which is a lot faster than "slowly > accumulating panna" for aeons, then s/he has to be smart enough to > support his/her practice with right nutriments with a sense of > urgency so that they give "faster growth" ! > > It is indeed the sense of urgency and relentless training that > condition faster growth. > > For example : > > "And if, in the monk recollecting the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha in > this way, equanimity based on what is skillful is not established, he > feels apprehensive at that and gives rise to a sense of urgency: 'It > is a loss for me, not a gain; ill-gotten for me, not well-gotten, > that when I recollect the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha in this way, > equanimity based on what is skillful is not established within me.' > [MN 28] > > "Thus you should train yourselves: > ' We will relentlessly exert ourselves, [thinking,] >"Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving >just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what >can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human >striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence." ' > That's how you should train yourselves." > [AN 2.5: Appativana Sutta. Relentlessly] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.005.than.html > > Tep > === "This [Arahatship], for him, is victory in the battle. This individual, I tell you, is like the warrior who can handle the cloud of dust, the top of the enemy's banner, the tumult, & hand-to-hand combat. On winning the battle, victorious in battle, he comes out at the very head of the battle. Some individuals are like this. This is the fifth type of warrior-like individual who can be found existing among the monks. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.075.than.html ====================================================================== There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.051.than.html#tur ban ============================================================ When a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones is touched by a painful bodily feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. This is called a well- instructed disciple of the noble ones who has risen up out of the bottomless chasm, whose foothold is gained." Whoever can't endure them once they've arisen — painful bodily feelings that could kill living beings — who trembles at their touch, who cries & wails, a weakling with no resiliance: he hasn't risen up out of the bottomless chasm or even gained a foothold. Whoever endures them once they've arisen — painful bodily feelings that could kill living beings — who doesn't tremble at their touch: he's risen up out of the bottomless chasm, his foothold is gained. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.004.than.html ================================================================== If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a strong man, seizing a weaker man by the head or the throat or the shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, and crush him; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html Can people who read the above "effort" quotes really think that Buddhist path is all and only about passive relaxation and "letting it just be without letting any interference, which can come only from an ego, in"? Best wishes, Alex #88606 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 2:24 pm Subject: Re: kayagatasati .. Relentless Training ... dhammanusarin Hi Howard (and Jon, Alex), - I appreciate yours and Alex's effort to keep sending the same Sutta message (as summarized below) over and over to our good friend Jonathan. >Tep: It is indeed the sense of urgency and relentless training that condition faster growth. For example : "And if, in the monk recollecting the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha in this way, equanimity based on what is skillful is not established, he feels apprehensive at that and gives rise to a sense of urgency: 'It is a loss for me, not a gain; ill-gotten for me, not well-gotten, that when I recollect the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha in this way, equanimity based on what is skillful is not established within me.' [MN 28] "Thus you should train yourselves: ' We will relentlessly exert ourselves, [thinking,] "Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence." ' That's how you should train yourselves." [AN 2.5: Appativana Sutta. Relentlessly] ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, what is unclear about that? Is this not conventional striving of the strongest sort that is called for here by the Buddha? Does it make sense to scour the commentaries to find some exotic reformulation that contorts this into something entirely different? ------------------------------------------------------ T: Thank you very much, Howard. Possibly Jon will get it this time. ;-) Tep === #88607 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 2:58 pm Subject: Re: Relentless Training: No Retreat, No Surrender! No pain, no gain! dhammanusarin Hi Alex (Jon, Howard), - The following points you made are very good. Alex: >If one doesn't enage in N8P as much as possible, then there will never be accumulations! >If one doesn't "strive" for kusala states, akusala states rush in and accumulate. Of course the action of engaging and training (sekha) is anatta. >Simply "understanding" swimming will NOT help one to actually swim when the ship is sinking. Simply "understanding" will not remove the subtle atta view when something happens. T: I think while the practitioner is developing a kusala dhamma (say, panna) and if the effort is not strong enough, then akusala states will have an opportunity to creep in through the six-sense doors. There is at least one sutta in which the Buddha warned the monks not to slacken the effort, otherwise the "Mara" will enter through the eye, ear,..., mind(intellect). SN 35.202 : "This is called a monk who is soggy with forms cognizable via the eye, soggy with sounds cognizable via the ear, soggy with aromas cognizable via the nose, soggy with flavors cognizable via the tongue, soggy with tactile sensations cognizable via the body, soggy with ideas cognizable via the intellect. When a monk dwells in this way, then if Mara comes to him via the eye, Mara gains entry, Mara gains a foothold. If Mara comes to him via the ear... nose... tongue... body... intellect, Mara gains entry, Mara gains a foothold." ...................... T: Thanks for the sutta quotes that stress the sense of urgency & strong effort to "swim upstream". >Alex: Can people who read the above "effort" quotes really think that Buddhist path is all and only about passive relaxation and "letting it just be without letting any interference, which can come only from an ego, in"? T: No way they can, if they actually read those clear sutta quotes. Tep === #88608 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 3:20 pm Subject: Re: nice posts jonoabb --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > In complete disregard for the rules of the forum(avoid "me too" posts ), I > just want to say how much I enjoy the series of recent posts by Jon. > Succint but very clear (IMO only of course). > Robert Thanks, Rob. Kind of you to say so. And I'm more than happy to waive the rule whenever the "me too" post is about posts of mine (just kidding; no rule specificaly on that any longer ;-)) Jon #88609 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 3:41 pm Subject: Re: Dhammas and Conditions (Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 9, no 2.) egberdina Hi Tep, 2008/8/2 Tep : > Hi, Herman and Howard, - > > > T: So it seems that 'foreign' is a synonym for 'separate' and 'as > other'. > > Most people have a tendency to attach (or identify themselves) to > things that are not 'other', i.e. not 'separate' from themselves. So > I think the right attitude for dispelling ignorance is to really know > & see the 'All' as "not me, not mine, not my self". > > But it is alright if you do not see the same meaning. > Your explanation makes a great deal of sense, and is entirely consistent with the Buddha's teachings. Thank you. Herman #88610 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 3:52 pm Subject: Re: Of Mice and Men (Re: [dsg] A question on contiguity) egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/8/1 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > >> And what consciousness knows this consciousness accompanied by > panna? >> Don't you see, Jon, the infinite regress that these particular texts >> rely on? > > I see no "infinite regression" in the scenario of one moment of > consciousness being the object of a succeeding moment of > consciousness. > > Any perceived "infinite regression" would only apply as regards the > claimed *knowing* of such and of all subsequent knowings. But that > is not being suggested. > > (Even then, I see no *regression* but a simple *continuity*). > >> Unless there is a consciousness that takes itself as object, >> the pursuit of consciousness of any kind as a reality to be known > is a >> wild goose chase. > > Sorry, but you haven't made this case at all ;-)). > There is a difference between me not having made my case, and you not understanding the implications of your own argument :-) You suggest that it is a present consciousness that takes a previous consciousness as object. But you also acknowledge that this present consciousness cannot be known. So why have this belief in a present consciousness, other than because your pet theory needs it? Cheers Herman #88611 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 4:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Each presently arisen state egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/8/1 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > >> The word "pattern" refers to any repeated sequence of events or >> objects. It is a well-known English word, and that is how I use, and >> no doubt you have often used it in that way as well. > > Yes, I'm familiar with the word, of course. My uncertainty is as to > its precise meaning in the context of your statement that "a pattern > consists of many dhammas over time". What would be an example of > this? I made a mistake. I used the word dhamma, and now, in order to understand why you ask me to clarify what I meant by it, I just looked at the entry on dhamma in the PTS dictionary. It is four pages long! It seems that every Tom, Dick and Buddhagosa has given this word their particular spin. Of course, that now means that an unqualified usage of that word dhamma will only serve to confuse, and you are quite right to ask for a clarification. What I would like to do is retract my usage of that word, and replace it with "thing", which was what I was intending when I said what I said. It would have been possible to deduce that from the context of our discussion, without this foray into semantics, because I also did say that "the word "pattern" refers to any repeated sequence of events or objects." I realise now that I may have confused you again, because while proposing to replace "dhamma" with "thing", I then proceeded to, without any warning, refer to a thing as being an event or object. Perhaps it would be best if we could meet somewhere, and then, by pointing and making various other gesticulations and sounds, I could make clear to you what I mean by objects and events. For in this I have unshakeable faith, that all humans learn the meanings of words through the grunting and gesticulation of others. I doubt very much, if our past discussions are any indication, and as long as we are limited to using this internet medium, where grunting and gesticulating can play no role, that we will get beyond semantics and actually start referring to the reality of patterns. If you are reading this post, let each letter, each word, each sentence be an example of a pattern to you. > >> An example of a pattern would be the dissatisfaction that invariably >> follows when anyone who has not been a disciple of A Sujin tries to >> have a discussion with you :-) > > ;-)) (but not sure from your wording on whose part there is > dissatisfaction ;-)) > I am not interested in going through old post, or doing a survey, to give you hard evidence that generally the non-Sujinites give up on discussing with you. I doubt that such hard evidence will make any difference, and I can think of many more interesting things to do :-) Cheers Herman #88612 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 5:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, Logic, Anatta egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/8/1 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > >> In other words, I assume that core dsg members do nothing other than >> think, speak and form judgments about nibbana, jhanas and the sensed >> world from the vantage point of a very large, juicy, obese self. > > A person who still has the accumulated tendency for wrong view of > self ("core dsg member" or not;-)) does not necessarily have wrong > view of self constantly or continuously. As regards any > consideration of the teachings, moments of correct intellectual > understanding will be kusala and hence self-free. An interesting point of view. Two things spring to mind on seeing the patterns above. I take it that a person, in your opinion, has specific accumulated tendencies all the time, but the momentary views that a person has may be counter to those persistent accumulated tendencies. Which leads me to the second thing. How is it known that there is a moment of correct intellectual understanding? > > Which parts of the three baskets in particular do you have in mind > here, in relation to jhana and the "thinner, leaner self"? > Well, I did quote you that little list of various lokas, and the three vithis with a final nirodha samapatti. If you believe that they are all equally accessible by selves of any girth, then I will await your evidence for that. >> >> If a fat self shares their intellectual understanding of leanness, >> should anyone take note? > > Fat self/lean self has no relevance as regards intellectual > understanding :-)) As mentioned above, intellectual understanding > moments are kusala and hence self-free. > I disagree. An intellectual understanding is had by a fat self only. And it bloats just a little more when s/he understands "I am having a moment of intellectual right understanding". :-) Cheers Herman #88613 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 5:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, Logic, Anatta egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/8/1 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > >> Do you think the sabbe as in "sabbe sankhara anicca, sabbe sankhara >> dukkha, sabbe dhamma anatta" is imprecise? > > No imprecision in "sabbe". But it's the "sankhara" and "dhamma" part > of the expression that I've been alluding to. Well, if we are clear about sabbe, then it would seem to me to be an act of insanity to go and create a taxonomy of sankhara and dhamma. > >> I would think that reducing "all" to "all members of only this > limited >> and fixed set that I have drawn up" would be the fearful act of a > self >> unable to relinquish the idea of control. > > The set in question is not drawn up by me, but is the "sankhara" and > "dhamma" of your quoted passage. > I find it interesting and noteworthy that you agree with those who think that sabbe needs to be itemised. Cheers Herman #88614 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 5:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a question? egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/7/29 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > >> It would be useful for the discussion if would share with us under >> what circumstances, in your view, the formation of a general rule > from >> specific examples is warranted. > > Well I didn't express that view i.e., that a general (doctrinal) rule > could be formed from specific situations described in the texts. In > fact, I questioned Alex's doing that. > > In short, I don't have a ready answer to your request. Sorry! > If not generalised from specific examples, what then is the basis for your unshakable interpretation of the Dhamma? Cheers Herman #88615 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 9:08 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,286 Vism.XVII,287 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 286. Herein, the first applies to one whose temperament is [false] view, and the second to one whose temperament is craving. For in the round of rebirths ignorance leads those whose temperament favours [false] view, and craving those whose temperament favours craving. Or the first has the purpose of eliminating the annihilation view because, by the evidence of the fruit, it proves that there is no annihilation of the causes; and the second has the purpose of eliminating the eternity view because it proves the ageing and death of whatever has arisen. Or the first deals with the child in the womb because it illustrates successive occurrence [of the faculties], and the second deals with one apparitionally born because of [their] simultaneous appearance. 287. The past, the present and the future are its three times. Of these, it should be understood that, according to what is given as such in the texts, the two factors ignorance and formations belong to the past time, the eight beginning with consciousness belong to the present time, and the two, birth and ageing-and-death, belong to the future time. ************************ 286. tattha purima.m di.t.thicaritavasena vutta.m, pacchima.m ta.nhaacaritavasena. di.t.thicaritaana.m hi avijjaa, ta.nhaacaritaana~nca ta.nhaa sa.msaaranaayikaa. ucchedadi.t.thisamugghaataaya vaa pa.thama.m, phaluppattiyaa hetuuna.m anupacchedappakaasanato, sassatadi.t.thisamugghaataaya dutiya.m, uppannaana.m jaraamara.nappakaasanato. gabbhaseyyakavasena vaa purima.m, anupubbapavattidiipanato, opapaatikavasena pacchima.m, sahuppattidiipanato. 287. atiitapaccuppannaanaagataa cassa tayo kaalaa. tesu paa.liya.m saruupato aagatavasena ``avijjaa, sa"nkhaaraa caa´´ti dve a"ngaani atiitakaalaani. vi~n~naa.naadiini bhavaavasaanaani a.t.tha paccuppannakaalaani. jaati ceva jaraamara.na~nca dve anaagatakaalaaniiti veditabbaani. #88616 From: "nichiconn" Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 9:13 pm Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,286 Vism.XVII,287 nichiconn Path of Purity, pp.696-7 The former is spoken by way of one who walks in views, the latter by way of one who walks in craving. For the ignorance of those who walk in views, and the craving of those who walk in craving lead the to repeated births. Or the former is spoken for the purpose of extirpating the theory of annihilation, the unbroken series of causes being made clear by the production of results; the latter is spoken for the purpose of extirpating the theory of eternalism, it being clear that states which have made their appearance undergo old age and death. Or, the former is stated by way of those who are still in the mother's womb, as it shows the proceeding of states in due sequence; the latter is by way of the apparitional as showing the simultaneous appearance {Read sahupatti* for sakupatti*. The .Tiikaa explains this as the simultaneous appearance of the aggregates (upapatti-kkhandhaana.m ekajjha.m upapattiya).} of states. The past, present and the future are its three times. The two factors: namely, ignorance and activities as they appear in their nature in the Pali text, are of the past time. The eight beginning with consciousness and ending in becoming are of the present time. The two, namely, birth and old-age-and-death are of the future. #88617 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 9:59 pm Subject: Re: Just studying... sukinderpal Hi Howard, I'm writing this from an internet cafe in Kanchanaburi, so I'll try to be quick. ============ > Sukin: Yes I realize that the ideal situation would be that I am reading > enough Suttas while studying what I’m doing now. But doing this to find > out whose interpretation is right and whose isn’t? I don’t think so. How > would I know? > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, not to be FLIPpant (LOL!), you could flip a coin - or, for more > outcomes, roll some dice! More seriously, you need to use your own experience > and best judgement, always keeping in mind, though, that you cold be mistaken, > and this not clinging to your view. Right now, you ARE depending on > commentaries or on Nina or on Khun Sujin, and it is YOUR JUDGEMENT to do so! It > *always* comes down to one's own judgement. Sukin: As you note, we *do* make judgements all the time. In a way we could say that, judgements is the means by which we arrive where we are today. One result of the development of understanding is that we recognize more and more where we come from with our judgements. This is the function of Right View and includes recognizing instances of Wrong View. And we begin to see then, how Right View is the only way out. When I said, "the ideal situation would be that I am reading enough Suttas while studying what I'm doing now", I was pointing to the fact of the Suttas helping in the development of Right Understanding and then being in a better position to judge whether others are right or wrong about their views expressed. However this is *without* any intention to read so as to be able to discriminate. Therefore being that the development of understanding involves first and foremost recognizing wrong view in oneself, to study with the aim of judging others would imo be missing the point. This is the reason that I suggested that it would be wrong to take on reading of the Suttas in order to see whose interpretation is right and whose in wrong. This applies as well with regard to reading the Kalama Sutta. If I were to focuss on "others", I think that the point is missed. Metta, Sukin #88618 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 11:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just studying... sarahprocter... Hi Alex, (Mike, Robert & all), --- On Thu, 31/7/08, Alex wrote: > rjkjp1 wrote: > > > Dear Phil > > The Commentary to Dhammasangani (the Atthasalini) says that those > > who study Suttanta wrongly may come to wrongview.... .... A:Did the Buddha ever in the suttas have stated that? Please quote the suttas. .... S: I think he did say just this, at least: http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/022-alagag\ addupama-sutta-e1.html "Bhikkhus, a certain foolish man learns the prose sections, prose and verse sections, the answers and explanation expositions, stanzas, solemn utterances, thus said sections, birth stories, wonderful things, a series of questions and answers. He thoroughly learns the Teaching but does not examine the meanings with wisdom. So he cannot take pleasure in the Teaching. He learns the Teaching for the purpose of finding fault. He takes a wrong grasp of the Teaching and that conduces for his unpleasantness for a long time. The reason is the wrong grasp of the Teaching. "Like a man wandering in search of a serpent would come to a huge serpent, he would take hold of the serpent by the hood or the tail and it would turn round and sting the hand or foot or any other limb. On account of this wrong grasp of the serpent he would meet death or deadly unpleasantness. In the same manner a certain foolish man learns the prose sections, prose and verse sections, the answers and explanation expositions, stanzas, solemn utterances, thus said sections, birth stories, wonderful things, a series of questions and answers. He thoroughly learns the Teaching but does not examine the meanings with wisdom. So he cannot take pleasure in the Teaching. He learns the Teaching for the purpose of finding fault. He takes a wrong grasp of the Teaching and that conduces for his unpleasantness for a long time. The reason is the wrong grasp of the Teaching." .... Metta, Sarah ========== #88619 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Fri Aug 1, 2008 11:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just studying... ajahnjose Dear Sarah, yes, your answer is correct. The Buddha saidthat in tha Sutta. What a clever little cookie you are Sarah. Metta. Ajahn Jose signature Venerable Yanatharo, Ajahn Jose #88620 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just studying... egberdina Hi Sarah, 2008/8/2 sarah abbott : > Hi Alex, (Mike, Robert & all), > >> > The Commentary to Dhammasangani (the Atthasalini) says that those >> > who study Suttanta wrongly may come to wrongview.... > .... > A:Did the Buddha ever in the suttas have stated that? Please quote the > suttas. > .... > S: I think he did say just this, at least: > > http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/022-alagag\ addupama-sutta-e1.html > > "Bhikkhus, a certain foolish man learns the prose sections, prose and verse sections, the answers and explanation expositions, stanzas, solemn utterances, thus said sections, birth stories, wonderful things, a series of questions and answers. He thoroughly learns the Teaching but does not examine the meanings with wisdom. So he cannot take pleasure in the Teaching. He learns the Teaching for the purpose of finding fault. He takes a wrong grasp of the Teaching and that conduces for his unpleasantness for a long time. The reason is the wrong grasp of the Teaching. > Given that the Buddha's teachings were oral in nature, one may safely assume that the Buddha said no such thing about his own teachings. But I agree with you, it is in the Suttas. Cheers Herman #88621 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Authenticity sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Herman, (Tep & all), We're discussing 'seclusion' and the authenticity of Maha Kaccana's elaborations on suttas. Are we really as qualified as the great Thera as has been suggested, I think? ***** S: >> > Can there be seclusion at this moment? .... H:>> No, there can be no seclusion while going about the activities of > daily life. Because seclusion involves the not attending to the > senses. To do so in a shared place involving other beings would be >at least negligent, and possibly quite a danger to the welfare of > yourself and others. ... A:> Herman is very correct. Furthermore, in daily life there are too many distractions, which aren't present to such degree in the retreats. .... S: Aren't the distractions the same, i.e lobha, dosa and moha? ..... H: > It was the prototype of all commentators, Maha Kaccana, who first got > away with changing the meaning of what the Buddha taught. He >suggested that the following: > > "Having left home to roam without abode, > In the village the sage is intimate with none; > Rid of sensual pleasures, without preference, > He would not engage people in dispute." > > actually meant: > > "The property of form, householder, is the home of consciousness. >When > consciousness is in bondage through passion to the property of form, > it is said to be living at home. The property of feeling... > perception.. . fabrication is the home of consciousness. When > consciousness is in bondage through passion to the property of > fabrication, it is said to be dwelling at home. blah blah blah as > found in > http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ sn/sn22/sn22. 003.than. html .... S: In other words, when there is attachment to visible object or other rupas, to feelings, perceptions, other mental factors or cittas such as seeing consciousness, there is bondage, there is the 'intimacy' of the 'home' life. When there is wisdom and detachment, there is seclusion, whether in the crowd or in the forest. SN35:63. (Bodhi transl): " 'Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus resorts to forests and groves, to remote lodgings where there are few sounds and little noise, desolate, hidden from people, appropriate for seclusion, he is still called one dwelling with a partner. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has not abandoned it; therefore he is called one dwelling with a partner.... <...> 'Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female lay followers, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller.' " .... S: As for the suggestion that Maha Kaccana was the first commentator to change the meaning of the Buddha's words when he elaborated on them (as you both seem to agree on), I think this is highly unlikely. First of all, the commentary to the Sutta Nipata along with the Sutta Nipata itself, is said to be one of the earliest Pali texts. As Malalasekera wrote in "The Pali Literature of Ceylon": "It sometimes happened that for a proper understanding of the text, explanations of a commentarial nature were quite essential; and in such cases the commentary was naturally incorporated into the text and formed part of the text itself". We can find many examples of this. As quoted before, on the text in question above, TB wrote: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html section IV. Atthaka Vagga: "Although these poems were originally composed for an audience of wandering, homeless monks, they offer valuable lessons for lay people as well. Even the passages referring directly to the homeless life can be read as symbolic of a state of mind. Ven. Maha Kaccana's commentary, mentioned above, shows that this has been done ever since canonical times. Addressing a lay person, and commenting on a verse describing the behavior of a sage who has abandoned home and society, he interprets "home" as the khandhas and "society" as sense impressions. Thus in his hands the verse develops an internal meaning that lay people can apply to their lives without necessarily leaving their external home and society. Other verses in the poems can be interpreted in similar ways. " .... Secondly, as Tep kindly indicated, exactly the same wording is used by Maha Kaccana in the Haliddakani Sutta, in the SN, one of the 4 Nikayas you both accept: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.003.than.html .... Thirdly, the Buddha expressly approves of Maha Kaccana's elaborations as when he says in the Madhupindika Sutta: "Bhikkhus, Mahaakaccaana is wise, even if you had asked me, I would have explained it as Mahaakaccaaana had done it. That is its meaning, so bear it like that." http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/018-madhup\ indika-sutta-e1.html Maha Kaccana was well known for being able to give detailed explanations on short expositions given by the Buddha. Indeed the Netti Pakarana (recently quoted by Alex) is a detailed commentary attributed to Maha Kaccana. In AN (i, 23), he is said indeed to be 'foremost of those who analyse in detail what has been stated in brief' In "Great Disciples of the Buddha" by Nyanaponika Thera and Hellmuth Hecker, there is a chapter on Maha Kaccana. Here's a quote from it, elaborating on this point: "While such brief teachings would escape the understanding of the great majority of the monks, the mature disciples with sharp faculties of wisdom could readily fathom their meaning. Under such circumstances the ordinary monks, reluctant to trouble their Master with requests for explanation, would turn for clarification to the senior disciples whose comprehension of the Dhamma had already been confirmed by the Blessed One. So important did this function become in the early Buddhist Sangha that the Buddha himself established, in the ranks of his most eminent disciples, a separate category called "the foremost of those who analyze in detail the meaning of what was stated (by me) in brief" (aggam sankhittena bhasitassa vittharena attham vibhajantanam). "The bhikkhu who was assigned to this position by the Master was the Venerable Maha Kaccana -- Kaccana the Great, so called to distinguish him from others who bore the common brahmanical clan name of Kaccayana (shortened to Kaccana)." One more quote that is given in the book makes the point: "Monks, those monks who, like my son Maha Kaccana, guard the doors of the senses, are beloved both among gods and humans." He then pronounced the following stanza of the Dhammapada (v.94): "Even the gods hold him dear, Whose senses are subdued Like horses trained well by a charioteer, Whose pride is destroyed, And who is free from corruptions." Metta, Sarah ======== #88622 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just studying... sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- On Sat, 2/8/08, Herman Hofman wrote: > But I agree with you, it is in the Suttas. .... S: Always good to find some common agreement with you, Herman:-)) Cheers, Sarah ======= #88623 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 2:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Channa took his life faultlessly sarahprocter... Hi Alex (Herman & all), --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Alex wrote: ========= ========= ========= ========= ===== A: "Sàriputta, wasn't the faultlessness of the bhikkhu Channa declared in your presence?" - Here the Buddha has said that Bhikkhu Channa was an Arahant , ie faultless WHILE CHANNA WAS ALIVE. .... S: Yes, he died faultlessly, having become an arahat in his final moments, AFTER having used the knife. Many moments, many different cittas. This is where the Abhidhamma helps. .... ============ ========= ===== A: "Sàriputta, there may be the families of venerable Channa's friends, well-wishers and earlier relatives, I say, there is no fault to that extent. Sàriputta, if someone gives up this body and seizes another, I say it is a fault. In the bhikkhu that fault is not apparent. Bhikkhu Channa took his life faultlessly." -MN144 http://www.mettanet .org/tipitaka/ 2Sutta-Pitaka/ 2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima3/ 144-channovada- e.html -Here The Buddha is explaining that even though it appears that Ven. Channa was close (in body) he wasn't close in mind. Furthermore if Channa was a worldling and took his own life, how can that act be faultless? ... S: It wasn't. The intention and act of taking his life was faulty. Subsequently, unknown to those without the Buddha's omniscience, he attained all paths and died faultlessly, i.e with no future rebirth. ... A: At that moment it isn't. But because this act wasn't done out of greed/anger/ delusion it wasnt. ... S: Such an act cannot be undertaken unless with dosa and moha. [As Mike mentioned (off-list), such an act is not the kamma-patha of killing, because no other being is involved. However, it is still undertaken in ignorance. There is no dana, sila or bhavana involved. ... > S: You're saying that Channa was overwhelmed by his suffering and >took his life as an arahat. >A: The sutta tells that. .... S: Correction: Your interpretation of the sutta tells that! How can an arahat be "overwhelmed by his suffering"? You've mentioned before that we have to read many suttas, not just one. I'd say, we have to read many suttas, many commentaries and some Abhidhamma and then consider carefully to reach sensible conclusions. .... Metta, Sarah ======== #88624 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 2:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stream enterer endowed with N8P (which includes Jhana) sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Jon, Alex, Scott & all), --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Tep wrote: J:> CMA: For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and because they possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. [4] Jon's 4 : The concentration accompanying magga citta is said to 'correspond to' jhana because the magga citta experiences its object with same full absorption and intensity of other factors as the jhana citta. CMA : Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane jhanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in the supramundane jhanas wisdom and concentration are well balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the deep significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4] Jon's 5.4 : The primary attribute of a moment of jhana citta is the degree of concentration on the object at that moment, whereas the attribute of a moment of magga citta is the wisdom that pierces the Truths. ***** >T: After reading the above, because of confusion I end up with more question and no answer. Since I have no idea whether or not the CMA commentators have jhana experience, or whether they know what the "concentration at *the intensity level* of jhana" means, I would be happier if you could directly find the explanation from the Abhidhamma Pitaka or Suttanta Pitaka. ... S: The following has been quoted before by Scott and myself from the Atthasalini,'Fourfold Jhana', PTS transl. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/83394 "Jhaana is twofold: that which (views or) examines closely the object and that which examines closely the characteristic marks [aaramma.nupanijjhaana~n ca lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m]. Of these two, 'object-scrutinising' jhaana examines closely those devices [for self-hypnosis]* as mental objects. Insight, the Path and Fruition are called 'characteristics-examining jhaana.' Of these three, insight is so called from its examining closely the characteristics of impermanence, etc. Because the work to be done by insight is accomplished through the Path, the Path is so called. And because Fruition examines closely the Truth of cessation, and possesses the characteristic of truth, it also is called 'characteristic-examining jhaana.' "Of these two kinds of jhaana, the 'object-examining' mode is here intended. Hence, from its examining the object and extinguishing the opposing Hindrances, jhaana is to be thus understood." Pali: "Duvidha.m jhaana.m aaramma.nupanijjhaana~n ca lakkha.nupanijjhaana~n ca. Tattha a.t.thasamaapatti-pa.thaviikasi.naadiaaramma.nam upanijjhaayatii ti aaramman.nupanijjhaanan ti sa"nkha"gataa vipassanaa. Maggaphalaani pana lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m naama. Tattha vipassanaa aniccadilakkha.nassa upanijjhaayanato lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m , vipassanaaya katakiccassa magge ijjhanato maggo lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m phala.m pana nirodha-sacca.m. Tattha lakkha.nam upanijjhaayatii ti lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m. Tesu imasmi.m atthe aaramma.nupanijjhaanam adhippeta.m. Kasmaa? Aaramma.nupanijjhaanato pacaniikajjhaapanato vaa jhaanan ti veditabba.m" ............ ......... ......... ..... >>S: I think we have to read references to jhana carefully in the suttas. Often it refers to arammanupani- jhana, mundane jhana. Often too, it refers to lakkhanupani- jhana, supramundane jhana at moments of enlightenment. There have been many references and quotes on these before (U.P. 'Jhana- 2 kinds'). >T: Although I have studied 70 -80% of the suttas over the last 20 years, but I must confess that I have not seen before even one sutta about 'arammanupani- jhana, or 'lakkhanupani- jhana'. ... S: No, in the suttas, just the term 'jhana' is used. This is why we need to read carefully. .... A:> In your opinion what is the best way to carefully read the references to jhana in the suttas? A few examples taken from the suttas will be helpful. Thanks. ... S: An example often discussed is the verse in the Dhp 373/374 about no nibbana without jhana. There was a sutta Alex quoted recently in which I thought the reference to jhana was to lakkhanupani- jhana, not to mundane jhana as he thought, but I don't have it to hand or any texts with me to check. Let's keep our eyes open. Metta, Sarah ======== #88625 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 3:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? - THERE IS SUCH A METHOD!!! sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Alex wrote: > A:> Super mindfulness is required for that, and long retreats may be > required for most of us, as ordinary mindfulness is too blunt and > slow. > .... > S: Again, I don't believe this has anything to do with the >development of satipatthana or sati or any kind. A: >So if it is not about seeing these states to arise, then all you do is simply read about them? .... S: Mindfulness has to develop very naturally and will do so if there is firm intellectual understanding of what its characteristic is and what the objects of mindfulness are. While there is a strong trying or urging to have 'Super mindfulness' and a focus on the movements of the feet (or any other object), no understanding will develop. Instead, attachment, craving for results, for 'me' will be developing. ... A:> I might as well read Talmud and simply believe in what is written there... Same believability and usefulness.. . .... S: Well, if reading the 4 Nikayas just lead you to focus on the movements of your feet.... .... >Reading the menu, or even eating the menu, will not satisfy one's hunger! ... S: True, but take care with the curry sauce and other tasty ingredients which can give you indigestion: [as quoted before by Larry]: >"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 221. Also they are (respectively) like the prison, the punishment, the offence, the punisher, and the offender. And they are like the dish, the food,the curry sauce [poured over the food], the server, and the eater.83 This is how the exposition should be known as to simile. -------------------------------- Note 83. 'The matter of the body is like the 'prison' because it is the site of the punishment. 'Perception is like the offence' because owing to perception of beauty, etc., it is a cause of the 'punishment', which is 'feeling'. The 'formations aggregate' is like the 'punisher' because it is a cause of feeling. 'Consciousness' is like the 'offender' because it is afflicted by feeling. Again, 'matter' is like the 'dish' because it bears the food. 'Perception' is like the 'curry sauce' because, owing to perception of beauty, etc., it hides the 'food', which is 'feeling'. The 'formations aggregate' is like the 'server' because it is a cause of 'feeling'; and service is included since one who is taking a meal is usually served. 'Consciousness' is like the 'eater' because it is helped by feeling' (Pm.504). For caaraka (prison) see Ch.XVI,18. ************************* Metta, Sarah ======= #88626 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just studying... upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 8/2/2008 1:01:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@... writes: When I said, "the ideal situation would be that I am reading enough Suttas while studying what I'm doing now", I was pointing to the fact of the Suttas helping in the development of Right Understanding and then being in a better position to judge whether others are right or wrong about their views expressed. However this is *without* any intention to read so as to be able to discriminate. Therefore being that the development of understanding involves first and foremost recognizing wrong view in oneself, to study with the aim of judging others would imo be missing the point. This is the reason that I suggested that it would be wrong to take on reading of the Suttas in order to see whose interpretation is right and whose in wrong. This applies as well with regard to reading the Kalama Sutta. If I were to focuss on "others", I think that the point is missed. ============================= I understand, and, in fact, I completely agree. I read the suttas for the purpose of my own understanding, not for the purpose of evaluating the perspectives of others, though, of course, my perspective strongly influences such evaluation. I also attend to the interpretations made by others to possibly gain insights that may be of value. But, certainly, focusing on others would not make sense to me. With metta, Howard #88627 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 6:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? - THERE IS SUCH A METHOD!!! dhammanusarin Hi Sarah and Alex, - Although I was not a participant in your discussion from the beginning, I closely followed it. At this point let me just jump in to give one neither-a-reply-nor-a-comment and quickly jump out. > S: Again, I don't believe this has anything to do with the >development of satipatthana or sati or any kind. A: >So if it is not about seeing these states to arise, then all you do is simply read about them? .... S: Mindfulness has to develop very naturally and will do so if there is firm intellectual understanding of what its characteristic is and what the objects of mindfulness are. While there is a strong trying or urging to have 'Super mindfulness' and a focus on the movements of the feet (or any other object), no understanding will develop. Instead, attachment, craving for results, for 'me' will be developing. ... T: A "firm intellectual understanding" of any subject matter (e.g. a high-school algebra; Biology; Engineering) is an important supporting factor in all kinds of study that develop skill. Mindfulness and awareness of "the objects of mindfulness" are natural in such a study as well as in other mundane, worldly mental activities that require attention and non-distraction in order to develop a knowledge and skill to do anything useful. It is not necessary for the student to have "the strong trying or urging to have 'Super mindfulness' on the subject of study" in order to succeed. The sense of self, which is unavoidable in all non-ariyans, does not hinder mundane development of understanding. So it does not make sense to keep on talking about the Self Demon. The mindfulness immersed in the body (kayagatasati) taught by the Buddha is a "super" mindfulness because it is not worldly, unlike the "natural" mindfulness (in worldlings) that you are talking about. Although kayagatasati is a super mindfulness that requires kusala supporting conditions (super attention, for example), I have not found a warning given by the Blessed One, even once, in the suttas that "attachment, craving for results, for 'me' will be developing" in a monk, while they are practicing kayagatasati on the body postures and movements. MN 119: "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body." DN 22: The Modes of Deportment "And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body externally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-things in the body, or he lives contemplating dissolution-things in the body, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution-things, in the body. Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance, and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world." Thus, also, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body." The Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savored, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practicing clear comprehension. "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally... and clings to naught in the world. Thus, also, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body." [Soma Thera translated.] ................... T: Carefully reading the above sutta quotes with mindfulness and understanding, it should be clear to anyone that the following interpretation of the Buddha's words is a wrong view that should be corrected before it is too late: >Sarah: "While there is a strong trying or urging to have 'Super mindfulness' and a focus on the movements of the feet (or any other object), no understanding will develop. Instead, attachment, craving for results, for 'me' will be developing." Sincerely, Tep === #88628 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 2:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just studying... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Alex, Mike, and Robert) - In a message dated 8/2/2008 2:21:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Alex, (Mike, Robert & all), --- On Thu, 31/7/08, Alex wrote: > rjkjp1 wrote: > > > Dear Phil > > The Commentary to Dhammasangani (the Atthasalini) says that those > > who study Suttanta wrongly may come to wrongview.... .... A:Did the Buddha ever in the suttas have stated that? Please quote the suttas. .... S: I think he did say just this, at least: http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/022-alag agaddupama-sutta-e1.html "Bhikkhus, a certain foolish man learns the prose sections, prose and verse sections, the answers and explanation expositions, stanzas, solemn utterances, thus said sections, birth stories, wonderful things, a series of questions and answers. He thoroughly learns the Teaching but does not examine the meanings with wisdom. So he cannot take pleasure in the Teaching. He learns the Teaching for the purpose of finding fault. He takes a wrong grasp of the Teaching and that conduces for his unpleasantness for a long time. The reason is the wrong grasp of the Teaching. "Like a man wandering in search of a serpent would come to a huge serpent, he would take hold of the serpent by the hood or the tail and it would turn round and sting the hand or foot or any other limb. On account of this wrong grasp of the serpent he would meet death or deadly unpleasantness. In the same manner a certain foolish man learns the prose sections, prose and verse sections, the answers and explanation expositions, stanzas, solemn utterances, thus said sections, birth stories, wonderful things, a series of questions and answers. He thoroughly learns the Teaching but does not examine the meanings with wisdom. So he cannot take pleasure in the Teaching. He learns the Teaching for the purpose of finding fault. He takes a wrong grasp of the Teaching and that conduces for his unpleasantness for a long time. The reason is the wrong grasp of the Teaching." .... Metta, Sarah ================================ Thank you for posting this, Sarah. I've seen it before and very much appreciate what it teaches. We come to everything with preconceived views, and that leads us to bend teachings (and to even try to bend reality) to match those views. Relinquishment of our grasp on views is very important, I think. (We need only look at the perverse interpretations within various religions that wreak so much havoc throughout the world!) Even the best of things can be perverted and transformed into a grotesque and harmful mockery of the original. And when we cling fast to views, the mind becomes closed, so that nothing new and vital can arise. This reminds me of the modern Zen story of a professor who went to meet with a renowned Zen master. The Zen master was serving tea to his guest. As soon as they finished initial pleasantries, the professor began talking and talking and expounding and expounding. As he went on and on and on, the Zen-master host started pouring tea into the professor's cup. And he continued pouring until the tea reached the top of the cup and then overflowed onto the table and then onto the floor. The professor shouted "Stop! Stop! No more can go in!" And the Zen master, with a smile, replied, "Yes, just like your mind." :-) With metta, Howard /Seekers, when ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen in an aspirant, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge she or he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no longer clings to a doctrine of self. When that one does not cling, he or she is not agitated. When not agitated, that one attains Nibbana and understands: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.'/ (From the Cula-Sihanada Sutta) #88629 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 6:44 am Subject: Re: Stream enterer endowed with N8P (which includes Jhana) dhammanusarin Hi Sarah (Jon, Alex, Herman, Howard, Scott, Nina and Han), - Thank you very much for the quote from the Atthasalini : "Jhaana is twofold: that which (views or) examines closely the object and that which examines closely the characteristic marks [aaramma.nupanijjhaana~n ca lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m]. Of these two, 'object-scrutinising' jhaana examines closely those devices [for self-hypnosis]* as mental objects. Insight, the Path and Fruition are called 'characteristics-examining jhaana.' Of these three, insight is so called from its examining closely the characteristics of impermanence, etc. Because the work to be done by insight is accomplished through the Path, the Path is so called. And because Fruition examines closely the Truth of cessation, and possesses the characteristic of truth, it also is called 'characteristic-examining jhaana.' "Of these two kinds of jhaana, the 'object-examining' mode is here intended. Hence, from its examining the object and extinguishing the opposing Hindrances, jhaana is to be thus understood." T: Now I see where the two strange-looking jhanas (in your previous message) came from : Aaramma.nupanijjhaana is 'object-scrutinising' jhaana, and lakkha.nupanij jhaana is 'characteristics-examining' jhaana. So I think Alex has been right all along to strongly repeat, over and over again, the importance of jhaana. Alex has been right, since according to Atthasalini, the insight's work is "accomplished through the Path" and even fruition is also a 'characteristic-examining jhaana'; thus it straightforwardly follows that jhaana is fundamental to pa~n~na development. No nibbana without jhaana! So why are you always opposing him whenever he talks about jhaana? ................. >Sarah: Let's keep our eyes open. T: Please do, because without an established mindfulness and awareness, and due the ingrained wrong view 'Only this is right', the eye and the ear will tend to be close most of the time. Someone says, 'No-one is too old to learn'. Others may say, 'No-one can teach an old dog a new trick'. But I always think, 'No-one can teach a stubborn dog, young or old, anything, because it doesn't listen'. Tep === #88630 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a question? egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/7/29 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > > > I don't take issue with what you say here, but I question it's > relevance to the development of the path. There was a time when the holy life was lived under the Blessed One for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging. Since then things have changed somewhat. From the "Questions of Milinda" And when he saw that Nâgasena had finished his meal, he took a lower seat, and sat beside him, and said: 'What shall we discuss?' 'We want to arrive at truth. Let our discussion be about the truth.' And the king said: 'What is the object, Sir, of your renunciation, and what the summum bonum at which you aim?' 'Why do you ask? Our renunciation is to the end that this sorrow may perish away, and that no further sorrow may arise; the complete passing away, without cleaving to the world, is our highest aim.' 'How now, Sir! Is it for such high reasons that all members of it have joined the Order?,' 'Certainly not, Sire. Some for those reasons,but some have left the world in terror at the tyranny of kings. Some have joined us to be safe from being robbed, some harassed by debt, and some perhaps to gain a livelihood.' > > Also it doesn't explain my query on your earlier statement. You said > that actions can be evaluated, because they have consequences in > terms of causing harm or benefit. I imagine, because you question my statements as to their relevance to the path, that you have a certain path in mind. Is it total unbinding through lack of clinging that you seek? If it is, then there are those who have gone before you who have identified waypoints for you whereby you may mark your progress. "So, my friend, I will give you an analogy, for there are cases where it's through analogies that knowledgeable people can understand the meaning of what is being said. Suppose that while King Pasenadi Kosala was staying at Savatthi, some urgent business were to arise at Saketa; and that between Savatthi and Saketa seven relay chariots were made ready for him. Coming out the door of the inner palace in Savatthi, he would get in the first relay chariot. By means of the first relay chariot he would reach the second relay chariot. Getting out of the first relay chariot he would get in the second relay chariot. By means of the second relay chariot he would reach the third... by means of the third he would reach the fourth... by means of the fourth, the fifth... by means of the fifth, the sixth... by means of the sixth he would reach the seventh relay chariot. Getting out of the sixth relay chariot he would get in the seventh relay chariot. By means of the seventh relay chariot he would finally arrive at the door of the inner palace at Saketa. As he arrived there, his friends & companions, relatives & kin would ask him, 'Great king, did you come from Savatthi to the door of the inner palace in Saketa by means of this chariot?' Answering in what way, my friend, would King Pasenadi Kosala answer them correctly?" "In the same way, my friend, purity in terms of virtue is simply for the sake of purity in terms of mind. Purity in terms of mind is simply for the sake of purity in terms of view. Purity in terms of view is simply for the sake of purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity. Purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision is simply for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging. And it's for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One." MN24 > > What do you mean by harm or benefit? Harm or benefit in the > conventional sense are not always apparent at the time of the > action. In fact, what seems like harm at the time may be perceived > as benefit later, and vice versa. Hence the question in my previous > post, "How are the consequences to be known?" Consequences are known only in relation to a goal. If one doesn't have or know a goal, then they have no way of evaluating their actions. Where do you hope to end up? > > Also, I'd be interested to know how you'd evaluate the following > (conventionally "neutral") actions in terms of harm/benefit: > - brushing one's teeth > - eating breakfast > - having a conversation with another person Again, these can only be evaluated in terms of a goal. Some suggestions as to why people might do the above: brushing teeth: habit, fear, vanity eating breakfast: craving, fear, habit conversation: fear, craving, habit, vanity > >> What are you doing right now? What on earth for? Is it working? :-) > > Yes, but the answers to these questions are going to be strongly > affected by subjective considerations. Am I pressing pieces of > plastic with my fingers, or am I engaged in debate on the meaning of > life?;-)) > > And whichever it is, is this really part of the path to enlightenment? > That depends on what you imagine enlightenment to be. Are you getting any closer? :-) Cheers Herman #88631 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 8:17 am Subject: Self as Island & Refuge dhammanusarin Hi, Sarah, Alex, Nina, Howard, Herman and All - "By effort, earnestness and self-control Let the wise man make for himself an island Which no flood can overwhelm." â€" Dhp 25 "Be ye islands unto yourselves, be ye a refuge unto yourselves! Take no other refuge! The Dhamma be your island, the Dhamma be your refuge; Take no other refuge!" â€" DN 16, Maha-parinibbana-sutta .............. Tep: If there is no self, can there be a refuge for the monks? If there is a self, can the refuge be grasped as mine? ............... SN 47:13, Cunda: "Therefore, Ananda, each of you should remain with your self as an island, your self as your refuge, without anything else as a refuge. Remain with the Dhamma as an island, the Dhamma as your refuge, without anything else as a refuge. And how does a monk remain with his self as an island, his self as his refuge, without anything else as a refuge? How does he remain with the Dhamma as an island, the Dhamma as his refuge, without anything else as a refuge? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself â€" ardent, alert, & mindful â€" putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves â€" ardent, alert, & mindful â€" putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is how a monk remains with his self as an island, his self as his refuge, without anything else as a refuge, with the Dhamma as an island, the Dhamma as his refuge, without anything else as a refuge. For those who â€" now or after I am gone â€" remain with their self as an island, their self as their refuge, without anything else as a refuge, with the Dhamma as an island, the Dhamma as their refuge, without anything else as a refuge, they will be the highest of the monks who desire training." ................. T: If there is no refuge, can they become "the highest of the monks who desire training"? If there is no desire for training, can there be an earnest practice of the Dhaama? Tep === #88632 From: "m_nease" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 9:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Just studying... m_nease Hi Sarah (and All), The address you posted for Mettanet's Alagagaddupama-sutta came out fragmented in my email client and wouldn't work, this one worked properly for me: http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/022-alagag\ addupama-sutta-e1.html Thanks for posting this, I wanted to cite it recently but couldn't remember enough about it to locate it. mike --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, (Mike, Robert & all), > > --- On Thu, 31/7/08, Alex wrote: > > rjkjp1 wrote: > > > > > Dear Phil > > > The Commentary to Dhammasangani (the Atthasalini) says that those > > > who study Suttanta wrongly may come to wrongview.... > .... > A:Did the Buddha ever in the suttas have stated that? Please quote the > suttas. > .... > S: I think he did say just this, at least: > > http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/022-alagag\ addupama-sutta-e1.html > > "Bhikkhus, a certain foolish man learns the prose sections, prose and verse sections, the answers and explanation expositions, stanzas, solemn utterances, thus said sections, birth stories, wonderful things, a series of questions and answers. He thoroughly learns the Teaching but does not examine the meanings with wisdom. So he cannot take pleasure in the Teaching. He learns the Teaching for the purpose of finding fault. He takes a wrong grasp of the Teaching and that conduces for his unpleasantness for a long time. The reason is the wrong grasp of the Teaching. > > "Like a man wandering in search of a serpent would come to a huge serpent, he would take hold of the serpent by the hood or the tail and it would turn round and sting the hand or foot or any other limb. On account of this wrong grasp of the serpent he would meet death or deadly unpleasantness. In the same manner a certain foolish man learns the prose sections, prose and verse sections, the answers and explanation expositions, stanzas, solemn utterances, thus said sections, birth stories, wonderful things, a series of questions and answers. He thoroughly learns the Teaching but does not examine the meanings with wisdom. So he cannot take pleasure in the Teaching. He learns the Teaching for the purpose of finding fault. He takes a wrong grasp of the Teaching and that conduces for his unpleasantness for a long time. The reason is the wrong grasp of the Teaching." > .... > Metta, > > Sarah #88633 From: "m_nease" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 9:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Just studying... m_nease p.s. Does anyone know if Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation is posted anywhere on the web? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m_nease" wrote: > > Hi Sarah (and All), > > The address you posted for Mettanet's Alagagaddupama-sutta came out > fragmented in my email client and wouldn't work, this one worked > properly for me: > > http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/022-alagag\ addupama-sutta-e1.html #88634 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 9:51 am Subject: Re: Self as Island & Refuge nidive Hi Tep, > "Be ye islands unto yourselves, be ye a refuge unto yourselves! > Take no other refuge! The Dhamma be your island, the Dhamma be you > refuge; Take no other refuge!" > Tep: > If there is no self, can there be a refuge for the monks? > If there is a self, can the refuge be grasped as mine? I think "self" here does not refer to wrong view of self. It is merely an expression saying that one should rely on one's own effort to attain the goal. Seems like barking up the wrong tree to me because in my opinion even arahants are islands unto themselves, refuges unto themselves, dwelling in dependece on this very Dhamma. ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/buddha.html#awakening "What if I were to dwell in dependence on this very Dhamma to which I have fully awakened, honoring and respecting it?" Then, having known with his own awareness the line of thinking in the Blessed One's awareness — just as a strong man might extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm — Brahma Sahampati disappeared from the Brahma-world and reappeared in front of the Blessed One. Arranging his upper robe over one shoulder, he saluted the Blessed One with his hands before his heart and said to him: "So it is, Blessed One! So it is, One-Well-Gone! Those who were arahants, Rightly Self-awakened Ones in the past — they, too, dwelled in dependence on the very Dhamma itself, honoring and respecting it. Those who will be arahants, Rightly Self-awakened Ones in the future — they, too, will dwell in dependence on the very Dhamma itself, honoring and respecting it. And let the Blessed One, who is at present the arahant, the Rightly Self-awakened One, dwell in dependence on the very Dhamma itself, honoring and respecting it." ------------------------------------------------------------------- Swee Boon #88635 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 10:01 am Subject: Re: Self as Island & Refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, 'Self' is not mentioned in the Dhammapada, if the Paa.li serves. "By effort, earnestness and self-control Let the wise man make for himself an island Which no flood can overwhelm." " Dhp 25 25. U.t.thaanenappamaadena ~ sa.myamena damena ca, Diipa.m kayiraatha medhaavii, ~ ya.m ogho naabhikiirati. Tep: "If there is no self, can there be a refuge for the monks? If there is a self, can the refuge be grasped as mine?" Scott: An approach to interpretation of any passage, based on a use of conventional definitions and meanings of English words and phrases leads to the above. Take the Paa.li word 'diipa.m', for example. The PTS PED: "Diipa (m. & nt.) [Ved. dviipa=dvi+ap (*sp.) of aapa water, lit. 'double -- watered,' between (two) waters] an island, continent; terra firma, solid foundation, resting -- place, shelter, refuge (in this sense freq. combd w. taa.na lena & sara.na & expl. in Com. by pati.t.thaa) -- (a) lit. island...continent: cattaaro mahaadiipaa..." Scott: And then 'aapamaada', which is: "Appamaada [a + pamaada] thoughtfulness, carefulness, conscientiousness, watchfulness, vigilance, earnestness, zeal..." [Nyanatiloka defines it: "Appamaada: Alertness, attentiveness, carefulness, non-laxity, earnestness, diligence, vigilance, is considered as the foundation of all advantageous progress."] It would seem that the meaning of the text is that aapamaada - a dhamma devoid of self but with characteristic and function - becomes the solid foundation and refuge against the floods. There is no mention of a 'self' in the passage. Sincerely, Scott. #88636 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 10:04 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 3. Dåna and síla can be performed without right understanding or with right understanding. When they are performed with right understanding they are of a higher degree of kusala. Bhåvanå, mental development, is another way of kusala and this cannot be practised without right understanding. There are two kinds of mental development: samatha bhåvanå or tranquil meditation, and vipassanå bhåvanå or the development of insight. Both forms of mental development need right understanding, but the right understanding in samatha is different from the right understanding in vipassanå. Samatha and vipassanå have different aims and their ways of development are different. The aim of samatha is calm. In samatha defilements are temporarily subdued, but they cannot be eradicated. Samatha is a way of cultivating kusala citta. Those who see the disadvantage of akusala want to develop more conditions for kusala. There are not always opportunities for dåna and síla, but if one has understood how to develop samatha, there are conditions for calm, even in one’s daily life. What is calm? Is it enjoyment of nature, listening to the bird’s song, being in quiet surroundings? What we in conventional language call “calm” is not the same as the calm that is developed in samatha. The calm that is developed in samatha has to be wholesome, because samatha is a way of mental development. When there is attachment, there is no calm. One may have attachment to silence and if right understanding is not developed, one is likely to take for wholesome calm what is not really wholesome calm. One may think, when there is neither pleasant feeling nor unpleasant feeling, but indifferent feeling, that there must be calm. Indifferent feeling can arise with kusala citta, but also with akusala citta. It can arise with the citta that is rooted in attachment (lobha-múlacitta) and it arises always with the citta that is rooted in ignorance (moha-múlacitta). Since it is extremely difficult to know exactly when the citta is kusala and when it is akusala, a fine discrimination of one’s cittas is necessary for the development of samatha. Thus we see that right understanding is indispensable. Calm arises with every kusala citta. When one is generous or one observes síla, one is free from attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) and ignorance (moha), and that is calm. If one has right understanding of the characteristic of calm there can be conditions for more calm and thus calm can develop. The understanding that is needed in samatha is not merely theoretical understanding. One has to know from direct experience the characteristic of calm and one has to know precisely when the citta is kusala and when it is akusala. ******* Nina. #88637 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 10:15 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta Corner DN 33 1.9 (8-11), Commentary, part 2. nilovg Commentary to the Sangiitisutta. sutta: Proficiency as to attainments and recovery from them (viz.: as to jhaana). ‘‘Samaapattikusalataa ca samaapattivu.t.thaanakusalataa ca. ---------- N: Co: There is attainment of jhaana with applied and sustained thought, with only sustained thought, without either of these. Proficiency in those kinds of jhaana means wisdom, discernment. This is wisdom and discernment as to preparation (parikamma) and attainment (appanaa). Pali Co: Samaapattikusalataati ‘‘atthi savitakkasavicaaraa samaapatti, atthi avitakkavicaaramattaa samaapatti, atthi avitakkaavicaaraa samaapatti. Yaa taasa.m samaapattiina.m kusalataa pa~n~naa pajaananaa’’ti (dha. sa. 1331) eva.m vuttaa saha parikammena appanaaparicchedajaanana-pa~n~naa. ------- N: As to proficiency in emerging from jhaana, the Co refers to the dha.sa 1332, which has a similar wording. It adds: this is pa~n~naa which determines a fixed time, saying: ‘I will emerge when the sun has such or such position’. -------- Co Samaapattivu.t.thaanakusalataati ‘‘yaa taahi samaapattiihi vu.t.thaanakusalataa pa~n~naa pajaananaa’’ti (dha. sa. 1332) eva.m vuttaa yathaaparicchinnasamayavaseneva samaapattito vu.t.thaanasamatthaa ‘‘ettaka.m gate suuriye u.t.thahissaamii’’ti vu.t.thaanakaalaparicchedakaa pa~n~naa. ------------- The Atthasaalini (Suttanta Couplets, 394) states: < ‘Attainment’ is because of fitness to attain. Skill in attainment is insight into the stages of ecstacy [N: jhaana] together with the preambule. The existence of insight as to emerging at a fixed time without fail [from jhaana] thus, ‘I will rise when the moon, sun, or a star reaches such a position’ is called ‘skill in emerging from attainment in Jhaana.’> ----------------------------- N: Pa~n~naa is emphasized. Pa~n~naa of the level of samatha has to be very keen to investigate and know which jhaanafactors have to be developed and which ones have to be abandoned to reach higher stages. In the beginning applied thinking, sustained thinking and all the other jhaanafactors are still needed, but as more progress has been made factors are subsequently abandoned. At the highest stage the factor samaadhi, concentration, remains and this is accompanied by indifferent feeling instead of happy feeling. Pa~n~naa has to know when and how to emerge from jhaana. ------------ sutta: Proficiency in elements and in understanding them. ‘‘Dhaatukusalataa ca manasikaarakusalataa ca. ----------- Co: Wisdom, discernment with regard to the eighteen elements of eyesense, visible object, seeing; earsense, sound, hearing; tastingsense, flavour, tasting-consciousness; smellingsense, odour, smelling-consciousness; bodysense, tangible object, body- consciousness; mind-element, dhamma-element, mind-consciousness element. Pa~n~naa applied to these eighteen elements that determines the characteristics; knowledge acquired by hearing, remembering, thoroughly understanding, penetrating. ---------- Co Pali: Dhaatukusalataati ‘‘a.t.thaarasa dhaatuyo cakkhudhaatu…pe… manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu. Yaa taasa.m dhaatuuna.m kusalataa pa~n~naa pajaananaa’’ti (dha. sa. 1333) eva.m vuttaa a.t.thaarasanna.m dhaatuuna.m sabhaavaparicchedakaa savanadhaara.nasammasanapa.tivedhapa~n~naa. -------- As to proficiency in attention (manasikaara) to the elements, the Co refers to the Dha. Sa. and it adds: it is pa~n~naa which is thorough understanding, penetration, which directly realizes these eighteen elements. ------- Co Pali: Manasikaarakusalataati ‘‘yaa taasa.m dhaatuuna.m manasikaarakusalataa pa~n~naa pajaananaa’’ti (dha. sa. 1341) eva.m vuttaa taasa.myeva dhaatuuna.m sammasanapa.tivedhapaccavekkha.napa~n~naa. ----------- The Atthasaalini (Suttanta Couplets, 395)states: All these words concern pa~n~naa. Attention to the elements is attention or awareness when they appear, now. That is the way to understand realities as elements, devoid of self. ----------- The subco. adds that also included in the elements are the element of earth (pathavidhaatu) etc. , the ruupas which are the four great elements; happy feeling (sukha) etc. , that is unhappy feeling, indifferent feeling, which are elements; kaama-dhaatu etc., that is to say: ruupa-dhaatu, aruupa-dhaatu: the element of cittas of the sense sphere, of ruupaavacaara cittas and aruupaavacaara cittas. As to the words of the Co: pa~n~naa that determines the characteristics, that means: pa~n~naa that sees the characteristics as they really are. As to knowledge acquired by hearing (savana), remembering (dhara.na), this is suttamayaa ~naa.na, knowledge acquired from hearing. The other kinds (sammasana, thorough understanding, and pa.tivedha, penetration) are bhaavanaamayaa ~naa.na, understanding of the level of mental development. As to proficiency in attention to the elements, the subco adds that this refers to attention to the characteristics of impermanence etc. It is vipassanaa pa~n~naa. The subco states that sammasana pa~n~naa, thorough understanding, is the beginning; that pa.tivedha, penetration, is the middle and that paccavekkha.na pa~n~naa, direct realization, is the end. N: Pa~n~naa is of many degrees. It begins to develop through hearing and remembering what one has heard. Firm remembrance of the Dhamma is a condition for direct awareness of characteristics of realities. Through the development of understanding of characteristics of realities one will be less inclined to cling to concepts or to the words that represent realities. It will be clearer that mere dhammas appear and can be directly understood, and these are different from the concepts of persons or things which are the objects of our thinking, time and again. (to be continued) ******** Nina. #88638 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 10:33 am Subject: Re: Self as Island & Refuge dhammanusarin Hi Swee (and All), - Thank you so much for this quote, which gives the essence of the message posted earlier about self (& Dhamma) as one's refuge : "Those who were arahants, Rightly Self-awakened Ones in the past -- they, too, dwelled in dependence on the very Dhamma itself, honoring and respecting it. Those who will be arahants, Rightly Self-awakened Ones in the future -- they, too, will dwell in dependence on the very Dhamma itself, honoring and respecting it. And let the Blessed One, who is at present the arahant, the Rightly Self-awakened One, dwell in dependence on the very Dhamma itself, honoring and respecting it." T: The "dwelling in dependence on the very Dhamma itself, honoring and respecting it" is in no way tainted with a wrong view about self. >Swee: I think "self" here does not refer to wrong view of self. It is merely an expression saying that one should rely on one's own effort to attain the goal. T: Yes, I agree, and 'no self' must simply mean there is no wrong view of self due to clinging (upadana) to the Dhamma. It does not make sense to say there is no person (puggala) who is making, or has made, effort to attain the goal. Thanks. Tep === #88639 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 11:11 am Subject: Re: Self as Island & Refuge dhammanusarin Dear Scott (Swee, etc.) - The Pali text for Dhp 25 plus your knowledgable explanation are appreciated. >Scott: 'Self' is not mentioned in the Dhammapada, if the Paa.li serves. 25. U.t.thaanenappamaadena ~ sa.myamena damena ca, Diipa.m kayiraatha medhaavii, ~ ya.m ogho naabhikiirati. T: Based on the PTS Dictionary, you show that 'diipa' means island and that 'aapamaada' , also by Nyanatiloka's Dictionary, means earnestness and vigilance, etc. I am with you all along. Then your conclusion jumps up at least 10 feet high : >Scott: It would seem that the meaning of the text is that aapamaada - a dhamma devoid of self but with characteristic and function - becomes the solid foundation and refuge against the floods. There is no mention of a 'self' in the passage. T: Hmmm.., yes and no. Yes, because every dhamma is selfless (not a soul; has no ownership; is 'as other'; is not to hold on to). No, because an effort and earnestness are made by someone in order to reach an island that is safe from "flood" (samsara). Such effort and earnestness describe a human's behavior, not an empty space. ;-) > "Be ye islands unto yourselves, be ye a refuge unto yourselves! > Take no other refuge! The Dhamma be your island, the Dhamma be you > refuge; Take no other refuge!" Maha-prinibbana Sutta [See DSG # 88634 for Swee's comment.] Thank you for sharing a good thought with me (as you did in the past). Tep === #88640 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cremation nilovg Dear Sarah, you gave me many good thoughts on death. Op 26-jul-2008, om 8:54 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Just as now, there is only the present moment, only the present > object appearing, so it will be in future. Just as now, we don't > own anything, whatever we have will be left behind, from moment to > moment, so it will be in future. Just as we forget so many details, > so many friends, so in future will everything and everyone we cling > to now be forgotten. Just realities rolling on. > > Actually, there's nothing to fear at all because death is just > another moment, like now. It's just like sleeping and waking up > again to more sense experiences and thinking about them. No self > involved at all. --------- N: Khun Sujin also reminds us: what about our last life we left behind when we were reborn into a new life? Perhaps we left dear ones mourning for us. Thinking about this makes it very natural: dying, rebirth, dying again and so on. I just finished typing Sri Lanka and want to quote your words: < At the airport Sarah reminded me that when we think of the people we are attached to and of the country we like, we think of concepts and we tend to be upset. But if we realize that life exists in only one moment of experiencing and that this moment falls away immediately, we have more understanding of reality. Sarah said: “Sri Lanka and all the people we are attached to, all the last five weeks, it is all in just one moment now, one thought now, and then gone.” Life exists in only one moment, the present moment.> Nina. #88641 From: "colette" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 11:56 am Subject: Re: SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? ksheri3 Hi Tep, No, I'm not ignoring you. This Tantra stuff takes a tremendous amount of research since I've gotta go through the Hindu foundational stuff. It is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT and TIME CONSUMING to speak to others, elsewhere, about this stuff since I've got orders from the Gelug and Kagyu traditions making sure I don't screw up and I've got these neophytes, that I'm trying to enlighten and haven't a clue, what it's all about. Talk about a narrow path, a tight rope, where we can find the song "I'm up on the tight wire, one side's ice and one is fire" LOL I am going to get to reply to you here since now I can see that "they" are gonna take some time to figure out what I told them THUS, while they're "in transition", I'll have the time to make it over here and reply to you. thanx. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > > Hi Colette, - > > It is likewise a pleasure to read your detailed analysis and unique > interpretation. :-) > > I have a few questions/comments this time: > > C: THE DHARMA FALLS AWAY, DISIPATES, RETURNS TO IT'S NATURAL STATE OF > NON-SVABHAVA OR SHUNYATA. > > T: Is this 'Dharma' same as CITTA, or do you mean a dharma principle > (e.g. the Four Noble Truths)? <....> #88642 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 1:56 pm Subject: Re: SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? dhammanusarin Hello Colette, - I appreciate the courtesy. >C: I am going to get to reply to you here since now I can see that "they" are gonna take some time to figure out what I told them THUS, while they're "in transition", I'll have the time to make it over here and reply to you. T: Thank you so much for the effort to answer my questions. But there is no hurry. So it is allright to delay your reply as long as necessary. Sincerely, Tep === #88643 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 3:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati egberdina Hi Howard and Jon, 2008/8/1 : > Hi, Jon - > > As for the Avarana Sutta, if the abandoning of the hindrances, which is > what occurs during jhana and is also supported by the four right efforts, > were not something that one can contribute to by intentional actions, I would > see no point in the Buddha having taught this. We do have sense of self more > than not, and it occurs throughout the performance of all the various > activities the Buddha urged to train the mind. I, of course, utterly dismiss that the > Buddha did not urge such intentional activities. > Of course! And why do you regularly and intentionally fly to Bangkok, Jon? Is it in the hope that there will be an unintended non-self moment there? Why bother, I hear that the non-self moments in Hong Kong are just as good, and I can certainly vouch for the ones in Australia :-) Cheers Herman #88644 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 3:55 pm Subject: Re: Self as Island & Refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Just a final word, as I know we do not agree: "Be ye islands unto yourselves, be ye a refuge unto yourselves! Take no other refuge! The Dhamma be your island, the Dhamma be you refuge; Take no other refuge!" Maha-parinibbana Sutta" T: "Hmmm.., yes and no. Yes, because every dhamma is selfless (not a soul; has no ownership; is 'as other'; is not to hold on to). No, because an effort and earnestness are made by someone in order to reach an island that is safe from 'flood' (samsara). Such effort and earnestness describe a human's behavior, not an empty space." Scott: Effort and earnestness just are. As every dhamma simply *is*. It is known for its characteristic. It *is* its characteristic - there *is* effort; there is no one making the effort. There is no reason to add 'human' or 'human's behaviour', as if it is the 'human' which makes the effort. Effort is effort. It is part of a complex arising, is multiply conditioned, and serves as condition in a process. Looking at the passage from the sutta: "Therefore, Aananda, you should live as islands unto yourselves, being your own refuge, with no one else as your refuge, with the Dhamma as an island, with the Dhamma as your refuge, with no other refuge..." (Walshe). Scott: And the Paa.li: "54. Eva.m kho aananda, bhikkhu attadiipo viharati attasara.no ana~n~nasara.no, dhammadiipo dhammasara.no ana~n~nasara.no. ye hi keci aananda, etarahi vaa mama.m vaa accayena attadiipaa viharissanti attasara.naa ana~n~nasara.naa. Dhammadiipaa dhammasara.naa ana~n~nasara.naa, tamatagge me te aananda, bhikkhu bhavissanti ye keci sikkhaakaamaa'ti." Scott: I wonder what the meaning of the compound 'attadiipo' is? There is a sense in which 'atta' seems to be used. The PTS PED: "...2. Oneself, himself, yourself...Here attaa comes very near to the European idea of conscience. But conscience as a unity or entity is not accepted by Buddhism)...In composition with numerals attadutiya himself and one other..." Scott: And Walshe, in a note to the sutta (p.569), notes that 'diipa' can be either 'lamp' or 'island'. This, then, is just a manner of speech - the oft mentioned conventional speech of the suttas - to say 'island to yourself". I'd say it can only be within the ongoing process of naama and ruupa - conventionally labelled 'one's self' - and no where else, wherein Nibbaana is glimpsed and the Path can arise. T: "Thank you for sharing a good thought with me (as you did in the past)." Scott: You are welcome. I'm off camping until Wednesday, and so last word to you. I'll not likely continue to discuss, since we know our points of divergence. Sincerely, Scott. #88645 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 5:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Just studying... truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > "the prose sections, prose and verse sections, the answers and >explanation expositions, stanzas, solemn utterances, thus said >sections, birth stories, wonderful things, a series of questions and >answers. > Sarah > ========== Thank you very much for the reminder (not to argue). However I've just checked my original post, it questioned the necessity of studying AB not to misinterpret suttas. I guess I have cut out too much of the original post so that you've misunderstood what I was questioning. Regarding the list of teachings, it DOES NOT directly say that Abh was taught. If it did, then it would probably be accepted by other early Nikaya Schools (such as Sarvastivadins, later Sautrantikas and other) just like the suttas were. The above classification of Buddhist teachings was later (although it may have been used when Buddha was still alive). In MN122 the classification is shorter; sutta, geyya, and vayakarana. Most suttas fall withing the Vayakarana categories, some contain (geyya) verses as well, and not that many "suttas" of sutta pitaka are suttas. On a different topic: I would like to add, that I would LOVE it if Abhidhamma study alone could bring one to Arahatship. I'd be one of those guys to try to memorize CMA by heart and could stick the pin through the book and know on which word the pin ends... I've heard of such people (although not Buddhists). I've also heard of Buddhist monks who have memorized Abh and such by heart. Not sure if they are Arahants, though.... Anyone knows or has anything to add on this matter? Best wishes, Alex #88647 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 6:03 pm Subject: Scholasticism, practice, mindfulness, and all that. truth_aerator Dear Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Mindfulness has to develop very naturally and will do so if >there is firm intellectual understanding of what its characteristic >is and what the objects of mindfulness are. I believe in Unnatural, Dhamma training, as Nature is Samsara. Buddha has often described his training as going "against the flow" (anusota sutta) to emphasize this point. Anapanasati alone can develop 4 sattipatthanas and Arahatship (MN118) if it is done long, good and completely enough. The instructions aren't very long. Similiar with MN#9 (samma-ditthi) and other suttas. I have a nagging suspicion that "intellectual scholasticism" has infiltrated what originally was a forest tradion, full of Arahants. >>>>> >While there is a strong trying or urging to have 'Super mindfulness' >and a focus on the movements of the feet (or any other object), no >understanding will develop. Instead, attachment, craving for >results, for 'me' will be developing. > ... No wonder people may fail to obtain the results if they believe that walking meditation is simply a focus on the feet. [expletatives wisely restrained]. Here is the hint: To start with one learns to see the 4 elements, not to mention kayagatasati aspect. Also one notices the mind and interaction between the two, nama & rupa (that is one of the vipassana nanas). Causality can be seen as well, another vipassana nana. Anicca -> Dukkha -> Anatta and many other nanas can be achieved as well... "focusing on the movements of the feet"... When people say that, is there any doubt as why their meditation fails? I DO LOVE THE VsM quote about the punisher and the offences. I gonna save it as it is so awesome. Thanks for providing it. Does VsM have lots of such quotes? They are quite descriptive and vivid. Best wishes, Alex #88648 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 7:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Channa took his life faultlessly truth_aerator Dear Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex (Herman & all), > > --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Alex wrote: > ========= ========= ========= ========= ===== > A: "Sàriputta, wasn't the faultlessness of the bhikkhu Channa >declared > in your presence?" > > - Here the Buddha has said that Bhikkhu Channa was an Arahant , ie > faultless WHILE CHANNA WAS ALIVE. > .... > S: Yes, he died faultlessly, having become an arahat in his final >moments, AFTER having used the knife. Many moments, many different >cittas. This is where the Abhidhamma helps. He must have been quick, as when the neck is cut (especially if it is the sleeping artery, his probable aim), the fainting and blacking out occurs pretty rapidly. If we admit the interrebirth state (it is in the suttas), then I can concede that he may have had time THERE to become an Arahant. > ... > S: It wasn't. The intention and act of taking his life was faulty. >Subsequently, unknown to those without the Buddha's omniscience, he >attained all paths and died faultlessly, i.e with no future rebirth. > ... There are other possible motivations to take one's life. Maybe it was to take off the burden from the monks who may wanted to help Channa. Or maybe it was Channa's built-in reflex from pujjhana days. Or some kamma-vipaka ripening as with monks in a certain sutta. Buddha himself could have prolonged his life, but didn't, even though he gave hints to Ananda so that Ananda would beg Buddha to do it. But since Ananda (due to Mara) didn't catch the hint, Buddha has released his will to live for more than few month. Here we have a Buddha himself doing what *may* be considered a form of passive suicide. Mara couldn't do it, Buddha before could overcome his illnesses and he could have now, yet he deliberately chose not to prolong life (to take him off life support so to speak) - even though he could have lived for the rest of the aeon (till 120 years or for cosmic Kapa?) . Nothing to say about Ven. Channa. What will happen if you ask some ordinary worldling this hypothetical situation -> Lets say that 80 year old Bob can live for 20+ more years by taking his medicine if his friend, Jack, begs him to live . Jack doesn't catch the hint and so Bob stops taking a drug (which would be easily obtainable) and dies 3 month later. Isn't this a form of passive suicide? Considering the whole Buddhist path to be a form of 'spiritual' suicide, this isn't totally out of picture. > > S: You're saying that Channa was overwhelmed by his suffering and > >took his life as an arahat. Could it have been a Kamma-Vipaka ripening? Of course suicide is bad and should NEVER be condoned. Hopefully this will make it clear. There was a time when he gave the asubha practice, went to the retreat and came back learning that they became so disgusted and overdid the practice so much, that they started killing each other off commiting suicide and hiring a sham ascetic to kill by almost dozen daily. You may say, quoting the commentaries, something about their evil kamma ripening. Here are few questions: 1) Can kamma-vipaka cause pujjhana on to commit suicide? 2) Can kamma-vipaka cause sekha to commit suicide? Furthermore I have a question as to how the ariyas were murdered by some crazy ascetic considering this: In some poems by elders I've read how an Arahant could turn killers into monks, and here there were many Ariya monks who couldn't do it. That must have been a crazy killer who murdered the part of the sangha that didn't commit suicide. I don't want to discuss this topic much further, but please answer the above two questions. Best wishes, Alex #88649 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 11:47 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, During the sessions we discussed many times the word “meditation”. This word is misleading. Generally people think that sitting in a quiet place and trying very hard to concentrate is tranquil meditation or samatha. One may try very hard to concentrate, but which types of cittas arise at such moments? Does one concentrate with aversion, because concentration is hard to achieve? Does one concentrate with attachment and with ignorance? Wrong view may arise when one thinks of “my concentration”. We should remember that concentration or “one-pointedness” (ekaggatå cetasika) arises with every citta. Its function is to focus on one object. When seeing arises, there is concentration on visible object. When aversion arises, there is concentration on the object of aversion. When someone performs dåna, there is concentration on the object of dåna. When someone observes síla, there is concentration on the object of síla. When one develops samatha, there is concentration on the subject of samatha and one does not need to think of concentration. If someone aims for concentration he is bound to have attachment or aversion. One does not have to try to become concentrated when one develops samatha since concentration arises with each citta. When there is right understanding of the object of samatha and there are conditions for more calm, there will be a higher degree of concentration, without there being the need to try. If a person is able to develop samatha this is due to conditions. Calm is of many degrees. In the Buddha’s time many people had conditions for the attainment of jhåna, absorption concentration. At the moment of jhånacitta sense-impressions do not arise, and attachment, aversion and ignorance are temporarily subdued. Can calm arise in daily life? When someone does not lead a secluded life and he does not have accumulated skill for the attainment of jhåna, he can still have moments of calm in daily life. The “Visuddhimagga” (Ch IV-XII) describes forty meditation subjects of samatha. It depends on the inclinations of the individual which of these subjects can be a condition for calm. The contemplation of a corpse, which is among the subjects of of samatha, can for some people be a condition for aversion. But if one thinks of this subject with right understanding there can be conditions for kusala citta with calm. We may realize that our body now is not different from a corpse: it consists of rúpas, physical phenomena, which do not know anything and which are impermanent. ****** Nina. #88650 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 1:04 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta Corner DN 33 1.9 (8-11), Commentary, part 3. nilovg Commentary to the Sangiitisutta, part 3. sutta: Proficiency in the (twelve) spheres of sense and in the (twelve factors of the) causal formula. ‘‘Aayatanakusalataa ca pa.ticcasamuppaadakusalataa ca. -------- Aayatana has several meanings: dwelling place, birthplace or meeting place for citta and cetasikas; “mine” (aakara) or place of production, and cause or reason (kara.na). It is sometimes translated as sensebase. Aayatana implies association of dhammas. When visible object impinges on the eysense there are conditions for seeing. The twelve aayatanas are: six internal bases: the physical bases of the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-base or consciousness (manaayatana). Mind-base includes all cittas. six external bases: which are six classes of objects: visible object, sound, odour, taste, tactile object and mind-object (dhammåyatana), comprising: cetasikas, subtle rúpas and nibbåna. -------- Co: Twelve aayatanas: the aayatana of the eye...dhammaayatana. Proficiency in those twelve aayatanas is discriminating knowledge, acquired by studying them(uggaha), in attending to them (manasikaara). ---------- Co Pali: Aayatanakusalataati ‘‘dvaadasaayatanaani cakkhaayatana.m…pe… dhammaayatana.m. Yaa tesa.m aayatanaana.m aayatanakusalataa pa~n~naa pajaananaa’’ti (dha. sa. 1335) eva.m vuttaa dvaadasanna.m aayatanaana.m uggahamanasikaarapajaananaa pa~n~naa. ---------- N: Further the Co deals with all three proficiencies and this is rendered by the Atthasaalinii. ----- The Atthasaalini (Suttanta Couplets, 395) states: ------- Co to the Sangiitisutta, gives the text renderd by the Atthasaalinii: Apica dhaatukusalataapi uggahamanasikaarasavanasammasanapa.tivedhapaccavekkha.nesu vattati manasikaarakusalataapi aayatanakusalataapi. Aya.m panettha viseso, savanauggahapaccavekkha.naa lokiyaa, pa.tivedho lokuttaro, sammasanamanasikaaraa lokiyalokuttaramissakaa. ----------- N: Pa.tivedha is lokuttara, the penetration of the four noble Truths at the moment of enlightenment. Sammasana and manasikaara, thorough understanding and attention can arise at the moments of insight that are lokiya, not lokuttara, or they can be lokuttara, arising at the moment of enlightenment. ----------- The subcommentary: thorough understanding and attention are also included in lokuttara because at the moment of the Noble Path they have reached accomplishment. -------- N: There has to be hearing, remembering what has been heard, studying the characteristics that appear with mindfulness, over and over again, so that accomplishment can eventually be reached. Aayatana implies association of realities, and this shows that the teaching of aayatanas is not abstract. Association of dhammas takes place at this very moment, but usually we are forgetful of this. There could not be hearing now if there were no association of sound, earsense and hearing. Different characteristics appear one at a time, and there can be mindfulness of them. That is the real study. ------------ As to proficiency in the Dependent Origination, the Co states: ignorance conditions kamma-formations (sa”nkhaara), etc... Pa~n~naa that occurs because of studying these twelve links on causal conditions. ------ Co: Pa.ticcasamuppaadakusalataati ‘‘avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraa…pe… samudayo hotiiti yaa tattha pa~n~naa pajaananaa’’ti (dha. sa. 1336) eva.m vuttaa dvaadasanna.m paccayaakaaraana.m uggahaadivasena pavattaa pa~n~naa. ------------ The Atthasaalinii (same section): ------- N: At the moment of performing a good deed or an evil deed it can be realized that due to ignorance that has been deeply accumulated, there are still conditions for the performing of kamma. This can be directly understood when the second stage of tender insight arises. It can be understood without the need to think about it. The teaching of the Dependent Origination is not theoretical, it is not abstract. It concerns our daily life now. At this moment we are being led on in the cycle, because of ignorance. ****** Nina. #88651 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Channa took his life faultlessly upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Sarah) - In a message dated 8/2/2008 10:21:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: There are other possible motivations to take one's life. Maybe it was to take off the burden from the monks who may wanted to help Channa. Or maybe it was Channa's built-in reflex from pujjhana days. Or some kamma-vipaka ripening as with monks in a certain sutta. Buddha himself could have prolonged his life, but didn't, even though he gave hints to Ananda so that Ananda would beg Buddha to do it. But since Ananda (due to Mara) didn't catch the hint, Buddha has released his will to live for more than few month. Here we have a Buddha himself doing what *may* be considered a form of passive suicide. Mara couldn't do it, Buddha before could overcome his illnesses and he could have now, yet he deliberately chose not to prolong life (to take him off life support so to speak) - even though he could have lived for the rest of the aeon (till 120 years or for cosmic Kapa?) . =============================== I believe that as regards the Buddha's allowing his death, it should not even be considered *passive* suicide, for no arahant can kill "himself" or "herself". For such a "being" there is only reality, only "that" - no self in anything, and hence no self to be destroyed. And even to speak of an arahant-being makes sense only from *our* separatist perspective "under the sun" (to use a metaphor from Ecclesiastes) and not from the seamless-reality, emptiness perspective that goes beyond ("atiditthi" or "lokuttara ditthi"?). With metta, Howard #88652 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 5:30 am Subject: Re: Self as Island & Refuge dhammanusarin Dear Scott (Alex and others), - >Scott: >Just a final word, as I know we do not agree .. >Effort and earnestness just are. As every dhamma simply *is*. It is known for its characteristic. It *is* its characteristic - there *is* effort; there is no one making the effort. There is no reason to add 'human' or 'human's behaviour', as if it is the 'human' which makes the effort. Effort is effort. It is part of a complex arising, is multiply conditioned, and serves as condition in a process. T: When the world is perceived as empty of concepts, then 'we do not agree' becomes empty as well. ............................. "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty." [SN 35.85] T: Reading this sutta superficially, it is easy to jump to the conclusion: "Aha! You see -- there is no self!". But we must not forget that such a perception of emptiness is only a state of mind of the perceiver. There is a mind that perceives emptiness of the world so the mind is empty of attachment, but his "body with life as its condition" is not empty. "He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance. And there is just this non- emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' " [MN 121]. And indeed that "non-emptiness" defines the human who makes an effort with earnestness to discern the dhamma. So this very subtle su~n~na dhamma must be wisely contemplated, otherwise one may disregard the human element as empty. Throwing away the baby with the bath water ? Imho the real meaning of the world being "empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self" in the SN 35.85 quote is as follows. The world (defined by external and internal sense media) is anatta; thus it is empty of the self views(attanuditthi, attavadupadana). It does NOT mean "there is no one making the effort", otherwise there would be no Buddha who taught His disciples who earnestly strived to crossover the 'flood' and reached the 'island' of safety. ............................... >Scott: I'm off camping until Wednesday, and so last word to you. I'll not likely continue to discuss, since we know our points of divergence. T: But I shall always leave the door open. May you live in peace, Tep === #88653 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/3/2008 2:48:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: During the sessions we discussed many times the word “meditationâ€?. This word is misleading. Generally people think that sitting in a quiet place and trying very hard to concentrate is tranquil meditation or samatha. ============================ Just for the record, that has never been my perspective on meditating, nor was that perspective ever taught to me by any meditation teacher. For me, this is a straw man. With metta, Howard #88655 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 6:54 am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 2. .. Have You Applied It Yourself? ... dhammanusarin Hi, Nina and All - >Nina: During the sessions we discussed many times the word "meditation". This word is misleading. Generally people think that sitting in a quiet place and trying very hard to concentrate is tranquil meditation or samatha. One may try very hard to concentrate, but which types of cittas arise at such moments? Does one concentrate with aversion, because concentration is hard to achieve? Does one concentrate with attachment and with ignorance? Wrong view may arise when one thinks of "my concentration". T: Concentration in a worldling's life is not difficult. The kind of concentration taught by the Buddha and the Arahants as a supporting condition for right knowledge and right release(vijja and vimutti) is very difficult. The following quotes from Patisambhidamagga and just a few suttas explain what concentration (that the Buddha taught) is. Ptsm, III, 444. "What is 'concentration'? Unification of cognizance and non-distraction due to long in-breaths are concentration, ...[and so on with all the other modes of breathing meditation up to ] ... Unification of cognizance and non-distraction due to out-breaths concentrating cognizance are concentration; any stationariness, steadiedness, steadfastness, of cognizance, non- scattering, non-distraction, non-scatteredness of mentation, serenity, concentration faculty, concentration power, right concentration, is concentration." "Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." — SN 35.145 "Jhana is a meditative state of profound stillness and concentration in which the mind becomes fully immersed and absorbed in the chosen object of attention. It is the cornerstone in the development of Right Concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma- samadhi/jhana.html "There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding." — Dhp 372 "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception." — AN 9.36 "These are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. — AN 4.41 ............................... >N: One does not have to try to become concentrated when one develops samatha since concentration arises with each citta. When there is right understanding of the object of samatha and there are conditions for more calm, there will be a higher degree of concentration, without there being the need to try. If a person is able to develop samatha this is due to conditions. T: Have you applied your own advice to develop concentration "without trying" (meaning no effort) yet? Which of the four developments of concentration (see AN 4.41 above) is your method? If you can develop samatha as claimed, what jhana level can you reach? Thanking you in advance, Tep === #88656 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 2. nilovg Hi Howard and Tep, Howard, I am glad this was not taught to you. Tep, I have now too much work with Pali texts, Sangiitisutta, and Larry also waiting, and answering posts gets more and more difficult for me. I try when I have time, but cannot promise anything, sorry. I hope others will answer instead of me. Nina. Op 3-aug-2008, om 15:14 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Just for the record, that has never been my perspective on meditating, #88657 From: mlnease Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 2. m_nease Hi Nina, Just a quick note to say 'thanks' for all your many kind efforts, now and for these many years. I understand how busy you are, please don't bother to reply! mike #88658 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Channa & Buddha . truth_aerator Hi Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Alex (and Sarah) - > =============================== >I believe that as regards the Buddha's allowing his death, it >should not even be considered *passive* suicide, for no arahant can >kill "himself" or "herself". For such a "being" there is only >reality, only "that" - no self in anything, and hence no self to be >destroyed. The nama-rupic process that we call "The Buddha" has exercised the volition to go off "life support sankhara". How isn't that a suicide of sorts? By shifting the talk to the ultimates the issue isn't really evaded as you well know. One can't simply start killing off people (in a conventional sense) and justify it as "inserting an iron between protein rupa" in the ultimate sense. Best wishes, Alex #88659 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 3:23 pm Subject: Concentration with every citta truth_aerator Dear Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > During the sessions we discussed many times the word "meditation". > This word is misleading. Some may use another word if this word is so problematic. Jhana, Bhavana, Samma-Samadhi, or even more specific: Anapanasati. > Generally people think that sitting in a > quiet place and trying very hard to concentrate is tranquil > meditation or samatha. Bull. Step #4 is to relax kayasankhara. Step #8 is to relax cittasankhara. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html As long as one *actively* does those steps, good. It won't be a headache mind crushing "one-pointedness". >One may try very hard to concentrate, but > which types of cittas arise at such moments? Does one concentrate > with aversion, because concentration is hard to achieve? See above 2 steps (4 & 8). >Does one concentrate with attachment and with ignorance? Wrong view >may arise when one thinks of "my concentration". Generally speaking such thoughts shouldn't arise, and even if the word "my" arises, one may not mean more than a linguistic marker rather than atta-ditthi. > We should remember that concentration or "one-pointedness" (ekaggatå cetasika) arises with every citta. Its function is to focus on one object. When seeing arises, there is concentration on visible object. When aversion arises, there is concentration on the >object of aversion. This sounds like what is called in the commentaries, momentary samadhi. Or vipassana "bare observation". But even though multiple objects may arise, one (relaxes kaya/citta sankhara) comes back to meditation object such as the breath or noting. > > One does not have to try to become concentrated when one develops > samatha since concentration arises with each citta. >>> It is different sorts of "concentration we are talking about". P1) You claim that concentration is present with every citta. P2) Cittas acompanied by restlessness do exist Concentration cannot coexist with restlessness simulteneously, thus one can't claim that ekaggata is always present. Thus, the statement that ALL cittas are accompanied by "ekaggata" is false. Best wishes, Alex #88660 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 3:46 pm Subject: Re: Self as Island & Refuge truth_aerator Dear Scott, Tep and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > Dear Scott (Alex and others), - > > >Scott: > >Effort and earnestness just are. As every dhamma simply *is*. > It is known for its characteristic. It *is* its characteristic - > there *is* effort; there is no one making the effort. There is no > reason to add 'human' or 'human's behaviour', as if it is >the 'human' > which makes the effort. Effort is effort. It is part of a complex > arising, is multiply conditioned, and serves as condition in a > process. > > T: When the world is perceived as empty of concepts, then 'we do >not agree' becomes empty as well. > ............................. If we consider concepts to be misleading, then such useful concepts as "Truth and Falsity" is misleading and meaningless. Furthermore, we live in a "conventional" world. No amount of convincing oneself that "only dhammas exist" will change the objective fact of jumping under a train. Some concepts such as "a train... stay away!" is quite useful. > "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a > self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty." [SN 35.85] > > T: Reading this sutta superficially, it is easy to jump to the > conclusion: "Aha! You see -- there is no self!". It all depends on what the Buddha has meant by the "world". An atta- theorist could really papancize and say that the "self" is somehow outside of the world. I strongly suspect that Anatta is a pragmatic teaching (until one personally grows a panna-eye) and not a totally negative ontological one. The suffering IS. It will increase if non-existent concept of Scott will jump under a non-existent conceptual train (Or a bus, or a car). Anyhow I believe that this conceptual proliferation is getting outside of the range of Buddha's teaching. Did Buddha in the suttas ever talked that "Concepts are bad, bad bad. Stick to parammatha words instead." ??!!! Remember the Graduated Teaching to get toward Stream entry? What does it teach for first few steps? Paramattha dhammas or not? Best wishes, Alex #88661 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 5:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cremation egberdina Hi Nina and all, No need to reply, Nina, I know you are very busy writing lots of other things. In the meantime, I would like to point out the differerence between being mindful and being lost in thought. If we are aware of a moment, we are lost in thinking. There are no moments, there is no moment. What there is, and that will be clear to anyone who is mindful, is this something followed by that something, this specific something followed by that specific something. This happens endlessly, but there may not be awareness of it. When we are not aware of this specific thing being followed by that specific thing we are likely to be lost in thinking. Sarah said: > "Sri Lanka and all the people we are attached to, all the last five > weeks, it is all in just one moment now, one thought now, and then > gone." > > Life exists in only one moment, the present moment.> The present reality, of which we can be aware, is that this is followed by that. "Sri Lanka", "people", "airport", "five weeks", they are all useful words when they are applied accurately to communicate to others the patterns of awareness that are our lives. Cheers Herman #88662 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 5:29 pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 2. kenhowardau Hi Howard, Alex and all, Howard wrote to Nina: ------------ > Just for the record, that has never been my perspective on meditating, nor was that perspective ever taught to me by any meditation teacher. For me, this is a straw man. -------------- KH: > I recently received a similar (but stronger) reaction from you, Howard, when I remarked that you practised concentration on sitting. We have also seen Alex correct Sarah for referring to 'mindfulness of movements of the feet.' Isn't this a turnaround from your former points of view? At DSG we have seen many meditators describing just these sorts of practices, and you have always (if I am not mistaken) supported and encouraged them. I would have thought(though I can't swear to it) that you too had described doing those things. When I was a meditator I practiced concentration on the physical acts of walking and sitting. And I believed, as I still do, that the vast majority of Buddhist meditators did exactly the same. Please read this article by Sayadaw U Silananda, and tell me if we are not all talking about the same thing: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/silananda/bl137.html Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 8/3/2008 2:48:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > During the sessions we discussed many times the word “meditationâ€?. > This word is misleading. Generally people think that sitting in a > quiet place and trying very hard to concentrate is tranquil > meditation or samatha. > #88663 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 5:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 2. egberdina Hi KenH, 2008/8/4 kenhowardau : > Hi Howard, Alex and all, > > > KH: > I recently received a similar (but stronger) reaction from you, > Howard, when I remarked that you practised concentration on sitting. > We have also seen Alex correct Sarah for referring to 'mindfulness > of movements of the feet.' > > Isn't this a turnaround from your former points of view? At DSG we > have seen many meditators describing just these sorts of practices, > and you have always (if I am not mistaken) supported and encouraged > them. I would have thought(though I can't swear to it) that you too > had described doing those things. > > When I was a meditator I practiced concentration on the physical acts > of walking and sitting. And I believed, as I still do, > that the vast majority of Buddhist meditators did exactly the same. > Please read this article by Sayadaw U Silananda, and tell me if we > are not all talking about the same thing: > That reminds me of something that happened to me once. I was on a vipasana meditation course, and was advised to concentrate on the sensations from a certain part of my body. After a while, it become clear to me that there were not always sensations from that body part to concentrate on, and I said as much to the teacher. He told me that was due to my concentration being weak. I ceased attending, not because I felt slighted or anything, but because I realised this guy had nothing to teach me. Cheers Herman #88664 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 6:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 2. truth_aerator Hi Herman, Ken and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > That reminds me of something that happened to me once. I was on a > vipasana meditation course, and was advised to concentrate on the > sensations from a certain part of my body. After a while, it become > clear to me that there were not always sensations from that body >part > to concentrate on, and I said as much to the teacher. He told me >that > was due to my concentration being weak. Was it a Goenka retreat? As I understand it, over live portions (with nerve endings) of the body there are ALWAYS some sensations. Blood pulsing, temperature, cloth contacting, etc. The feeling may be a neutral feeling as well. Best wishes, Alex #88665 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 7:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 9, no 2. egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/8/1 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > >> If we are unable to perceive rise and fall of dhammas, as you say >> here, what makes you believe it is otherwise? > > Only if rise and fall has been directly experienced by developed > panna can it be confirmed. Until then it is just another of the many > things found in the teachings that remain to be verified. > > In the meantime, it can be considered whether or not a hypothesis of > rise and fall is consistent with experience. > >> ... If you base your claim >> that it is otherwise on the authority of another, did they claim the >> ability to perceive the rise and fall of dhammas? And if they did >> claim that, did they also claim that it was useful to them in any > way? > > It is not a matter of "usefulness" but of seeing things the way they > truly are (and when you think about it what could be more useful than > that?). I agree with you that seeing the way things are is the most useful activity. In the context of that, I believe that seeing anicca as applying universally (to whatever falls under "the all") is the limit of experience. Conversely, I believe that moments, in which a member of a catalogue of paramattha dhammas with their own sabbhava that rise and fall individually, are not experiencable. I also believe that all modern theories of how perception works reject that experience is composed of individual, absolute elements. Cheers Herman #88666 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 3:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Channa & Buddha . upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 8/3/2008 5:41:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Alex (and Sarah) - > =============================== >I believe that as regards the Buddha's allowing his death, it >should not even be considered *passive* suicide, for no arahant can >kill "himself" or "herself". For such a "being" there is only >reality, only "that" - no self in anything, and hence no self to be >destroyed. The nama-rupic process that we call "The Buddha" has exercised the volition to go off "life support sankhara". How isn't that a suicide of sorts? By shifting the talk to the ultimates the issue isn't really evaded as you well know. --------------------------------------------- Howard: It wasn't my aim to "shift the talk to ultimates." My point was that, truly, for the Buddha there was nothing but the indescribable reality that our splintered world is an imposter substitute for, and there are no selves of any sort included in that reality. The Buddha chose not to continue embodiment for whatever was his reason, but that discontinuation, IMO, isn't remotely related to what we would call suicide. I'm not being cutesy-formalistic, but saying exactly what I believe. ---------------------------------------------- One can't simply start killing off people (in a conventional sense) and justify it as "inserting an iron between protein rupa" in the ultimate sense. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I wasn't suggesting killing. Did you think I was? ---------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Alex ========================= With metta, Howard #88667 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 3:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Alex) - In a message dated 8/3/2008 8:29:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, Alex and all, Howard wrote to Nina: ------------ > Just for the record, that has never been my perspective on meditating, nor was that perspective ever taught to me by any meditation teacher. For me, this is a straw man. -------------- KH: > I recently received a similar (but stronger) reaction from you, Howard, when I remarked that you practised concentration on sitting. We have also seen Alex correct Sarah for referring to 'mindfulness of movements of the feet.' Isn't this a turnaround from your former points of view? At DSG we have seen many meditators describing just these sorts of practices, and you have always (if I am not mistaken) supported and encouraged them. I would have thought(though I can't swear to it) that you too had described doing those things. When I was a meditator I practiced concentration on the physical acts of walking and sitting. And I believed, as I still do, that the vast majority of Buddhist meditators did exactly the same. Please read this article by Sayadaw U Silananda, and tell me if we are not all talking about the same thing: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/silananda/bl137.html Ken H ============================= I stand by exactly what I said. With metta, Howard #88668 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 7:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 2. egberdina Hi Alex, 2008/8/4 Alex : > Hi Herman, Ken and all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: >> That reminds me of something that happened to me once. I was on a >> vipasana meditation course, and was advised to concentrate on the >> sensations from a certain part of my body. After a while, it become >> clear to me that there were not always sensations from that body >>part >> to concentrate on, and I said as much to the teacher. He told me >>that >> was due to my concentration being weak. > > > Was it a Goenka retreat? As I understand it, over live portions (with > nerve endings) of the body there are ALWAYS some sensations. Blood > pulsing, temperature, cloth contacting, etc. The feeling may be a > neutral feeling as well. > I think the course was derived from Goenka principles, but wasn't directly affiliated. (I have done Goenka retreats as well). I don't know, Alex, but with a certain type of awareness the body disappears, and it seemed to me, then as well as now, that "to go looking" for your body or part of it was not at all related to effort of concentration, but intention. Cheers Herman #88669 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 8:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Channa & Buddha . egberdina Hi Howard and Alex, 2008/8/4 : > Hi, Alex - > > Howard: > It wasn't my aim to "shift the talk to ultimates." My point was that, > truly, for the Buddha there was nothing but the indescribable reality that our > splintered world is an imposter substitute for, and there are no selves of > any sort included in that reality. The Buddha chose not to continue embodiment > for whatever was his reason, but that discontinuation, IMO, isn't remotely > related to what we would call suicide. I'm not being cutesy-formalistic, but > saying exactly what I believe. I think that for all intents and purposes, people who choose to discontinue life, are choosing death. Do you believe there is a third choice available? Cheers Herman #88670 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 11:26 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Mindfulness of breath is another subject among the forty meditation subjects (kammatthåna). The “Visuddhimagga” explains that this subject is extremely difficult, one of the most difficult subjects. One should have right understanding of breath, otherwise citta cannot become calm. What we call breath is rúpa which is conditioned by citta. Bodily phenomena can be conditioned by kamma, by citta, by temperature or by food. We cling to life, to our body, to our possessions. However, our life depends on breath, which is only a rúpa. So long as we are breathing in and out we are alive, but when we breathe out for the last time that is the end of this life. Of what use are then our possessions to us, of what use are all the things we are clinging to? If one has accumulated conditions to be mindful of breath with right understanding there can be moments of calm. Depending on one’s accumulated skill, jhåna can be attained through the development of this meditation subject. However, if mindfulness of breath is not developed in the right way it is not bhåvanå. If there is no precise knowledge of the moments of akusala citta and of kusala citta, one is bound to take for bhåvanå what is not bhåvanå. Do we like our breath and do we have desire to watch it, because that gives us a pleasant sensation? That is not calm but clinging. Breath is very subtle and not everyone is able to be mindful of it. It is hard to know when it is breath, the rúpa conditioned by citta, which appears, and when it is something else we take for breath. Breath can be perceived where it touches the nosetip or the upperlip. When one follows the movement of the abdomen it is not mindfulness of breath. If one has no conditions to develop calm with this meditation subject, one should not force oneself. For the development of samatha one should choose the right subject, that is, the subject which can condition kusala citta with calm. It depends on the individual which subject is suitable. That is why there are forty meditation subjects of samatha. The recollection of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha are also subjects of samatha. One may pay respect to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha because one has been taught to do so, without right understanding of the virtues of the Buddha and of his teaching. The citta may be kusala, but there is no bhåvanå. Right understanding of the object of calm is necessary for bhåvanå. If there is right understanding of the Buddha’s virtues and of his teachings, there may be conditions for citta to be calm, free from lobha, dosa and moha, for many moments. Such moments can occur in daily life, it is not necessary to go to a quiet place. It is right understanding which is necessary, and if this is lacking, a quiet place will not induce calm. If one sits in front of a Buddha statue and repeats the word “Buddha” without right understanding, kusala citta may arise, but it is not bhåvanå. ******* Nina. #88671 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 11:34 pm Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 286, 287 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 286, 287 Intro: In the previous sections it was explained that the cycle of birth and death can be seen under two aspects, that is, as two parts. One part going back to the past, beginning with ignorance, formations, consciousness, naama-ruupa, the sixfold base, contact and ending with feeling. The second part continuing into the future, beginning with craving, clinging, becoming, birth, and the twelfth link consisting of old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. These two parts of the Wheel complement each other, since different aspects are emphasized. The first part can be applied to someone who is led by wrong view, and the second part to someone who is led by craving. The teaching of the first part leads to the elimination of the annihilation view and the teaching of the second part leads to the elimination of eternalism. The first part clarifies the successive arising of the sensebases and the second part illustrates the simultaneous arising of them when there is spontaneous rebirth. -------------------- Text Vis.286: Herein, the first applies to one whose temperament is [false] view, and the second to one whose temperament is craving. For in the round of rebirths ignorance leads those whose temperament favours [false] view, and craving those whose temperament favours craving. --------- N: The Tiika explains as to the first part of the Wheel, beginning with ignorance, that since ignorance conceals the true characteristic of dhamma (dhamma sabhaava), it causes those who are inclined to wrong view to cling to a wrong interpretation of reality and thus, this leads them on in the cycle of rebirth. It leads them to the proceeding of kamma-formations and so on. As to the second part, beginning with craving, this leads those who are inclined to craving on in the round of rebirths. -------- Text Vis.: Or the first has the purpose of eliminating the annihilation view because, by the evidence of the fruit, it proves that there is no annihilation of the causes; -------- N: Those who do not see the conditions for arising, take to annihilation view. When result that is produced by a cause is evident, it can eliminate annihilation view. The Tiika mentions that the link of vi~n~naa.na, consciousness, etc. is the fruit occurring at the present time. It includes rebirth- consciousness and vipaakacittas such as the sense-cognitions, arising during life. It is the fruit of kamma-formations and thus it is evident that there is no ground for annihilation belief. ------- Text Vis.: and the second has the purpose of eliminating the eternity view because it proves the ageing and death of whatever has arisen. --------- N: The second part of the Wheel ends with old age and death. Whatever arises has to fall away, it does not last. Text Vis. : Or the first deals with the child in the womb because it illustrates successive occurrence [of the faculties], -------- N: Child in the womb is the translation of gabbha. Vis. 152 refers to S I, 206: (transl. by Ven. Bodhi) In the planes where there are naama and ruupa the heartbase and the rebirth-consciousness are a support for each other. Both of them are produced by kamma at the same time and one could not arise without the other. We speak of the birth of a person, but in reality there were from the first moment the rebirth-consciousness and ruupa, so tiny as . The embryo of the first stage develops so that it becomes fully grown, all due to the proper conditions. What we call embryo are in fact citta, cetasika and ruupa that arise and fall away. The first part of the Wheel explains the arising of the aayatanas, including the sensebases that arise successively. Consciousness conditions naama/ruupa, cetasikas and ruupa, and naama/ruupa conditions the sixfold base. With regard to human birth, at the first moment kamma produces the decads with the heartbase, with the bodysense and with sex. Only later on it produces the other sense-bases. ----------- Text Vis. and the second deals with one apparitionally born because of [their] simultaneous appearance. -------- N: Those born spontaneously may be born with all sensebases complete. The Tiika states that there is the simultaneous appearance of the aggregates (upapatti-kkhandhaana.m ekajjha.m upapattiya). -------- Text Vis.287: The past, the present and the future are its three times. Of these, it should be understood that, according to what is given as such in the texts, the two factors ignorance and formations belong to the past time, the eight beginning with consciousness belong to the present time, and the two, birth and ageing-and-death, belong to the future time. ----------- Conclusion: We are led on in the cycle by both ignorance and craving and thus, we need the teaching on the two parts of the cycle: the first part beginning with ignorance, and the second part beginning with craving. Ignorance conceals the true characteristics of dhammas (sabhava dhammas) and therefore we hold on to a wrong interpretation of reality. We cling to an idea of self who is born, of self who sees, hears or thinks. We cling to all objects we experience, feeling conditions craving. So long as we are in the cycle there are conditions for craving. No matter whether feeling is happy, indifferent or unhappy, it can condition craving. Even at this moment we are led on in the cycle of birth and death. ******** Nina. #88672 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 12:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? .. You May Disagree Again ... sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Tep wrote: T:> Accumulations( aayuhanaa) is only found in the Patisambhidamagga. For example : 'accumulating [kamma] as a meaning of origin is to be directly known' [Ptsm, I, 34]. It is strange that I can find only one sutta, MN 12, that mentions "accumulation" . However, the meaning of accumulation here is different from what you talk about. .... S: Aayuhanaa just refers to the accumulation of kamma, manifesting as cetana cetasika. Avijja (ignorance) is the proximate cause. In other contexts when there are references to the accumulation of the anusayas (latent tendencies) or of kusala and akusala, different terms are used. Here are a few quotes from old posts in U.P. under 'anusaya'. There'd be plenty more under 'accumulations': 1) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/54284 Robert: >Accumulation has several different pali terms. One of them is ayuhana The Mahavagga tika (subcommentary) to the Digha nikaya explains:(Aayuuhana.m sampi.n.dana.m, sampayuttadhammaana.m attano kiccaanuruupataaya raasiikara.nanti attho. Accumulating (aayuuhana.m) is the adding together or heaping up of its associated phenomena in accordance with its own function. (sampi.n.dana.m -adding together rasi - heap kicca -function Here is a section from the Mahanidana sutta commentary, where aayuhana (accumulate) occurs in complex phrases. (from bodhi The great discourse on causationp65)about Paticcasamupadda: Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, ACCUMULATING, lustfulness, and lustlessness. gambhiiro, sa"nkhaaraana.m abhisa"nkhara.nAAYUUHANAsaraagaviraaga.t.tho and [the meaning] of existence as ACCUMULATING, volitionally forming, and throwing beings into the different modes of origin bhavassa aayuuhanaabhisa"nkhara.nayo nigati.thitinivaasesu khipana.t.tho, Accumulating is happening right now - the accumulating of understanding (or not) that can be a condition as upanissiya paccaya (support condition) or asevena paccya (repetition condition) for more understanding and so it keeps accumulating until there are enough conditions for deep insight to arise. Not by self or wanting or freewill but by the right conditions. And if that was too dense here is an old post I wrote about acumulations: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49777 ***** 2) Scott: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/67198 >SN 45,175 (5): "Bhikkhus, there are these seven underlying tendencies. What seven? The underlying tendency to sensual lust, the underlying tendency to aversion, the underlying tendency to views, the underlying tendency to doubt, the underlying tendency to conceit, the underlying tendency to lust for existence, the underlying tendency to ignorance. These are the seven underlying tendencies. This Noble Eightfold Path is to be developed for direct knowledge of these seven underlying tendencies, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning." SN 22,35(3): "...Bhikkhu, if one has an underlying tendency towards something, then one is reckoned in terms of it. If one does not have and underlying tendency towards something, then one is not reckoned in terms of it..." SN 22,89,(7): "...As he dwells thus contemplating rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging, the residual conceit 'I am', the desire 'I am', the underlying tendency 'I am that had not yet been uprooted - this comes to be uprooted..." Note 47: "Ya.m kno bhikkhu anuseti tena sa"nkha.m gacchati. The verb anuseti implies anusaya, the seven underlying tendencies, or, more simply, the three underlying tendencies of lust, aversion, and ignorance. Spk: If one has an underlying tendency towards form by way of sensual lust, etc., then one is described in terms of that same underlying tendency as 'lustful, hating, deluded.' But when that underlying tendency is absent, one is not reckoned thus..."ayuhana is the function of sankhara dhamma, manifesting as cetana cetasika and with avijja (ignorance) as proximate cause. ******* 3) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/39210 Larry: M: "Commentary ...Habitual: that which is done often or, although done just once, often dwelt on." L: This looks like what Nina is calling accumulations, a habit with a tendency to repeat. However I don't see this sense of aayuuhana in the Buddhist Dictionary: "ayuhana: (karmic) 'accumulation', is a name used in the commentarial literature for the wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities (karma, q.v.) or karma-formations (sankhaara; s. paticca-samuppadaa), being the bases of future rebirth. "'Accumulation', is a name for the karma-formations, and signifies those volitions (cetanaa) which arise at the performance of a karma, first while thinking 'I will give alms', and then while actually giving alms (e.g.) for one month or a year. The volition, however, at the time when one is handing the alms over to the recipient; is called karma-process (kamma-bhava, s. Vis.M. XVII, IX, X). Or, the volitions during the first six impulsive-moments (javana, q.v.) depending on one and the same state of advertence (aavajjana, s. vi~n~naana-kicca), these are called the karma-formations, whilst the 7th impulsive moment is called the karma-process (kamma-bhava).... Or, each volition is called 'karma-process' and the accumulation connected with it, 'karma-formation'. " (Vis.M. XVII). Cf. paticca-samupp�da (2, 10) - (App.)." L: See also Vism.XIV,131: Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of forming should be understood, all taken together, as the formations aggregate' (par.81). And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of forming is that which has the characteristic of agglomerating.57 What is that? It is formations themselves, according as it is said, 'They form the formed, bhikkhus, that is why they are called formations' (S.iii,87). ------------------------------ Note 57. ' "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of adding together (sampi.n.dana); then they are said to have the function of accumulating, for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so described because volition is their basis' (Pm.484). ****** [S: In addition, more on accumulations in Connie's recent extracts (#88526, #88333) and Nina's (##88354) from the Atthasalini as in "....termed 'consciousness'[citta] because it is accumulated (cito) by kamma and the corruptions...."] **** T: >MN 12: "Such was my coarseness, Sariputta, that just as the bole of a tinduka tree, accumulating over the years, cakes and flakes off, so too, dust and dirt, accumulating over the years, caked off my body and flaked off. It never occurred to me: 'Oh, let me rub this dust and dirt off with my hand, or let another rub this dust and dirt off with his hand' " it never occurred to me thus. Such was my coarseness." .... S: A good analogy of how the defilements accumulate in ignorance. .... T:> The Mahasatipatthana Sutta, DN 22, makes clear about the urgency of the path practice to attain arahantship, or anagamiship, in 7 days up to 7 years. ... S: I apologise for any offence caused when I questioned the intentions in having particular results. Perhaps we can just agree that when there is any right understanding of dhammas at the present moment, there is a sense of urgency - there is no doubt that this is the way, the way which will lead to the final goal. Thank you for your other helpful comments and quotes. Metta, Sarah ========== #88673 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 1:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Hindrances sarahprocter... Hi Alex (Tep & all), --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Alex wrote: A:> Ok, can you please describe the non-just intellectual- approach that you use? ... S: I don't use any approach. I'm just interested in understanding dhammas at the present moment. This of course is the work of pa~n~naa, not of 'me' following an approach or doing anything. ... >>S: What about now, Alex? Can there be seclusion at this moment? ... A:> Yes, but too many distractions, and the kilesas are strong. Retreat setting is generally much more helpful. No books, no internet, no endless chores, etc. ... S: This indicates a lack of confidence in the understanding of dhammas at the present moment. I don't see any distinction (or distraction from the path) when there are books and chores vs the 'quiet' environment. It is the citta now which counts, Alex. That's all. The rest are ideas about 'situations', not the understanding of seeing or hearing which has been conditioned now. I've quoted the Thera Sutta several times before, but maybe not to you. Taken from my earlier messages: >S:In the Thera Sutta (SN 21:10 'A Bhikkhu Named Elder in the B.Bodhi transl.), it seems a number of bhikkhus thought it was strange for Thera to live alone, go for alms alone, return alone, sit and walk alone and so they raised the issue with the Buddha. The Buddha summoned Thera who confirmed he lived and followed all these activities alone and also praised living alone. The Buddha doesn't disagree, but said : "That is a way of dwelling alone, Elder, I do not deny this. But as to how dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail, listen to that and attend closely, I will speak." "Yes, venerable sir." "And how, Elder, is dwelling alone fulfilled in detail? Here, Elder, what lies in the past has been abandoned, what lies in the future has been relinquished, and desire and lust for present forms of individual existence has been thoroughly removed.* It is in such a way, Elder, that dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail." This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this: "The wise one, all-conqueror, all-knower, Among all things unsullied, with all cast off, Liberated in the destruction of craving: I call that person �one who dwells alone. "** ..... Footnotes to Thera Sutta (B.Bodhi trans): *Commentary "(Spk): "The past is said to be abandoned (pahina.m) by the abandoning of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the past; the future is relinquished (pa.tinissa.t.tha.m) by the relinquishig of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the future. **"(Spk): 'All-conqueror'(sbbaabhibhu.m): one who abides having overcome all aggregates, sense bases, and elements, and the three kinds of existence. 'Unsullied'(anupalitta.m, or "unstuck") among hose very things by the paste (lepa) of craving and views. "Liberated in the destruction of craving (ta.nhakkhaye vimutta.m): liberated in Nibbana, called the destruction of craving by way of the liberation that takes this as its object." ***** S: So there are the two meanings of 'living alone'. For some by inclination or natural tendency (pakati) they will live alone in the first sense like Thera. However, we all have to learn to live alone without 'desire and lust' regardless of whether we're in the forest or the village, alone or with others. From ~Naa,nananda�s comments ('Ideal Solitude', Wheel 188): "Idha Thera ya.m atiita.m pahiia.m what is past is abandoned ya.m anaagata.m pa.tinissata.m The future is relinquished Paccupannesa ca ***attabhaavapa.tilaabhesu*** chandaraago suppa.tiviniito And the desire and lust for the present modes of personality is well under control Eva.m kho Thera ekavihaaro vitthaarena paripu.n.no hoti It is thus, Elder, that (the ideal of) lone-dwelling becomes fulfilled,in all its details. Naa.nananda adds: "We saw above how the Theranamo Sutta expounds the true ideal of solitude (ekaviharo) as against the popular and commonplace concept of solitude. The true ideal is depicted as a 'solitude' of mind, gained by giving up everything belonging to the past and the future and by disciplining well the desire and lust for one�s present modes of personality."< **** A:> Hindrances have more material causes at home ... S: Lobha is lobha whenever, wherever it arises. Remember the meaning of 'home' as referring to the khandhas as explained by Maha Kaccana. .... A:> and this is what the Buddha has said about hindrances: "Sensual desire is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. Ill will... ....for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible. http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an05/an05. 051.than. html .... S: Yes, 'sensual desire is an obstacle' whenever it arises. If it arises now, then now is the time and opportunity to be aware and understand it. If we wait for another 'setting', when there is no sensual desire, it will never be known, the path will never be followed. .... A:> I personally hope that it is possible today and for us to do that. ... S: Again, it comes down to the understanding of the dhamma, such as attachment, now, rather than hoping, putting off and trying to do anything with atta. ... >>S:> Are they atta to be controlled, or anatta, dependent on conditions? A:> Everything is anatta, including formal meditation (which I do daily). ... S: Hmmm... 'Formal meditation' is a concept, an idea. Sabbe dhamma anatta refers to dhammas, realities that are anatta - sankhara dhammas and the asankhara dhamma, anatta. Sankhara dhammas depend on conditions and are anatta. Ideas and concepts, such as formal meditation, are not conditioned. They are conceptualised, imagined. ... A:> However just because things are anatta, it doesn't mean that one takes it with an apathetic fatalistic attitude. Conceit, if aimed at becoming an Arahant is GOOD as one of the suttas with Ananda has said. ... S: Firstly, the development of right understanding is not 'an apathetic fatalistic attitude'. It is the realistic way. Secondly, conceit is always unwholesome, no matter how you read the suttas. Thanks for the helpful discussions, Alex. Metta, Sarah ========= #88674 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Channa & Buddha . upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Alex) - In a message dated 8/3/2008 11:38:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Howard and Alex, 2008/8/4 : > Hi, Alex - > > Howard: > It wasn't my aim to "shift the talk to ultimates." My point was that, > truly, for the Buddha there was nothing but the indescribable reality that our > splintered world is an imposter substitute for, and there are no selves of > any sort included in that reality. The Buddha chose not to continue embodiment > for whatever was his reason, but that discontinuation, IMO, isn't remotely > related to what we would call suicide. I'm not being cutesy-formalistic, but > saying exactly what I believe. I think that for all intents and purposes, people who choose to discontinue life, are choosing death. Do you believe there is a third choice available? -------------------------------------------- Howard: I've tried to make myself clear. I don't think I can do better. Sorry. :-) -------------------------------------------- Cheers Herman ======================= With metta, Howard #88675 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 3. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/4/2008 2:26:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Mindfulness of breath is another subject among the forty meditation subjects (kammatthÃ¥na). The “Visuddhimaggaâ€? explains that this subject is extremely difficult, one of the most difficult subjects. One should have right understanding of breath, otherwise citta cannot become calm. ============================ Meditation centered on the breath has been my main form of meditating for years. I engage in it every day, almost without fail. I do not find it difficult, and calm arises quickly with it - and also pleasant sensation throughout the body and, much of the time, also considerable clarity. I guess I must have "right understanding of breath". ;-) With metta, Howard #88676 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 5:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Authenticity egberdina Hi Sarah and Alex, 2008/8/2 sarah abbott : > Hi Alex, Herman, (Tep & all), > > We're discussing 'seclusion' and the authenticity of Maha Kaccana's elaborations on suttas. Are we really as qualified as the great Thera as has been suggested, I think? > ***** How does one tell a commentator's qualifications? Surely not by what they write about themselves! > S: >> > Can there be seclusion at this moment? > .... > H:>> No, there can be no seclusion while going about the activities of >> daily life. Because seclusion involves the not attending to the >> senses. To do so in a shared place involving other beings would be >>at least negligent, and possibly quite a danger to the welfare of >> yourself and others. > ... > A:> Herman is very correct. Furthermore, in daily life there are too many > distractions, which aren't present to such degree in the retreats. > .... > S: Aren't the distractions the same, i.e lobha, dosa and moha? Alex raised the reality of degrees, which is the quantity of a quality. You have either not understood this, or just plain ignored it. But in answer to your question. No, the distractions are not the same. Because background craving is not the same as craving that drives behaviour. Cheers Herman #88677 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 6:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Channa took his life faultlessly egberdina Hi Sarah and Mike, 2008/8/2 sarah abbott : > Hi Alex (Herman & all), > > ... > S: It wasn't. The intention and act of taking his life was faulty. So now you are numbered amongst the commentators? > A: At that moment it isn't. But because this act wasn't done > out of greed/anger/ delusion it wasnt. > ... > S: Such an act cannot be undertaken unless with dosa and moha. [As Mike mentioned (off-list), such an act is not the kamma-patha of killing, because no other being is involved. However, it is still undertaken in ignorance. There is no dana, sila or bhavana involved. Your judgment condemns only one being, namely yourself. I hope there will be someone who does more for you than just recite a formula if ever you are beside yourself with pain. ... >> S: You're saying that Channa was overwhelmed by his suffering and >>took his life as an arahat. > >>A: The sutta tells that. > .... > S: Correction: Your interpretation of the sutta tells that! No, the Sutta does tell that. No interpretation or commentary required. > How can an arahat be "overwhelmed by his suffering"? You've mentioned before that we have to read many suttas, not just one. I'd say, we have to read many suttas, many commentaries and some Abhidhamma and then consider carefully to reach sensible conclusions. > .... When sensible is confused with how one would like things to be, it is a slippery slope. What sensible life or death do you conceive of, Sarah? Cheers Herman #88678 From: "Tep" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 3. dhammanusarin Hello Howard (and Nina), - Nina's opinion is completely predictable : > >Nina: > >One should have right understanding of breath, otherwise citta cannot become calm. > ============================ Howard: > Meditation centered on the breath has been my main form of meditating for years. I engage in it every day, almost without fail. I do not find it difficult, and calm arises quickly with it - and also pleasant sensation throughout the body and, much of the time, also considerable clarity. I guess I must have "right understanding of breath". ;-) > ..................... T: So it seems that almost everything the Buddha taught about Sila and Samadhi cannot be attained without right understanding. In other words, the whole Buddha-sassana (the Dhamma-vinaya) boils down to one thing "Right Understanding" in Nina's view. What are supporting conditions for Right Understanding? I often heard this reply: Listening and considering the Dhamma (and nothing else). Right understanding will then accumulate. No practice of any kind is required. Is this idea a straw man, Howard? Regards, Tep === #88679 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 6:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Channa & Buddha . nidive Hi Herman, > I think that for all intents and purposes, people who choose to > discontinue life, are choosing death. Do you believe there is a > third choice available? Yes, there is. The Deathless. All lives lead to death, and all deaths lead to life. Neither life nor death: The Deathless. Swee Boon #88680 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 7:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Channa & Buddha . nidive Hi Alex, > The nama-rupic process that we call "The Buddha" has exercised the > volition to go off "life support sankhara". How isn't that a > suicide of sorts? By shifting the talk to the ultimates the issue > isn't really evaded as you well know. It is not suicide because suicide as I understand it is accompanied by craving for becoming and/or non-becoming. The Buddha is simply letting go of all physical burdens and physical sufferings that comes as a consequence of him taking the last birth. Whoever is born dies! But one who dies and is never born again is the True Sage. Swee Boon #88681 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 7:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Channa & Buddha . truth_aerator Hi Swee and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > > I think that for all intents and purposes, people who choose to > > discontinue life, are choosing death. Do you believe there is a > > third choice available? > > Yes, there is. The Deathless. > > All lives lead to death, and all deaths lead to life. > > Neither life nor death: The Deathless. > > Swee Boon > PariNibbana is total cessation of body & mind. So it is a final "death" of the 5 aggregates without any sort of rebooting happening. Best wishes, May we all cease in peace, I personally can't wait. It is the best alternative to suffering. Alex #88682 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 7:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Channa & Buddha . truth_aerator Hi Swee, Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > > The nama-rupic process that we call "The Buddha" has exercised >the > > volition to go off "life support sankhara". How isn't that a > > suicide of sorts? By shifting the talk to the ultimates the issue > > isn't really evaded as you well know. > > It is not suicide because suicide as I understand it is accompanied > by craving for becoming and/or non-becoming. > > The Buddha is simply letting go of all physical burdens and >physical > sufferings that comes as a consequence of him taking the last birth. > Notice I've said "suicide of sorts" . Obviously it is not the worldly variety of "life sucks, where is the rope?" Of course it isn't "I hate life sort of emotional action.". Best wishes, Alex. #88683 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Channa & Buddha . upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 8/4/2008 10:11:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Swee, Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > > The nama-rupic process that we call "The Buddha" has exercised >the > > volition to go off "life support sankhara". How isn't that a > > suicide of sorts? By shifting the talk to the ultimates the issue > > isn't really evaded as you well know. > > It is not suicide because suicide as I understand it is accompanied > by craving for becoming and/or non-becoming. > > The Buddha is simply letting go of all physical burdens and >physical > sufferings that comes as a consequence of him taking the last birth. > Notice I've said "suicide of sorts" . Obviously it is not the worldly variety of "life sucks, where is the rope?" Of course it isn't "I hate life sort of emotional action.". ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Good. :-) I do agree that the ordinary sense of 'suicide' is intentional action (or inaction) taken that leads to "one's own' death. ---------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Alex. ========================= With metta, Howard #88684 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 9:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Hindrances truth_aerator Hi Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex (Tep & all), > > --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Alex wrote: > A:> Ok, can you please describe the non-just intellectual- approach >that you use? > ... > S: I don't use any approach. I'm just interested in understanding >dhammas at the present moment. This of course is the work of >pa~n~naa, not of 'me' following an approach or doing anything. >> So what exactly does panna do? Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that you just read Abh, & think about it, mistaking oneself of some 'understanding'. You know, Buddha had so much understanding of sensuality that he left off his riches and ran into the forest to try to remove all traces of sensuality. Somewhere there is a quote something about, "the understanding of sensuality is 1st jhana.". > ... > >>S: What about now, Alex? Can there be seclusion at this moment? > ... Not bodily. Remember another quote, "sound is a thorn for 1st jhana.". Guess why? > ... > S: This indicates a lack of confidence in the understanding of >dhammas at the present moment. Buddha has left his castles. So did many of his extended family members. Similiar with riches & status that Ven. Sariputta & Mogallana left behind (they were Brahmin, highest caste). > I don't see any distinction (or distraction from the path) when >where are books and chores vs the 'quiet' environment. Too bad. For unawakened people, sights & sounds ARE big distractions. This is one of the reasons why the Buddha has praised secluded and lonely places. Heck, he himself visited them and from time to time he had his own private retreats. >>>> >It is the citta now which counts, Alex. That's all. >>>>> If for you the sounds and daily chores are not a distraction - GOOD FOR YOU. Not everyone are as enlightened and as clean (from latent tendencies) as you, Sarah! > >S:In the Thera Sutta (SN 21:10 'A Bhikkhu Named Elder in the ? >B.Bodhi > > The Buddha summoned Thera who confirmed he lived and followed all these activities alone and also praised living alone. > > The Buddha doesn't disagree, but said : > > "That is a way of dwelling alone, Elder, I do not deny this. But as to how > dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail, listen to that and attend closely, > I will speak." > > "Yes, venerable sir." > > "And how, Elder, is dwelling alone fulfilled in detail? Here, Elder, what > lies in the past has been abandoned, what lies in the future has been > relinquished, and desire and lust for present forms of individual > existence has been thoroughly removed.* It is in such a way, Elder, that > dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail." > > This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, > the Teacher, further said this: > > "The wise one, all-conqueror, all-knower, > Among all things unsullied, with all cast off, > Liberated in the destruction of craving: > I call that person �one who dwells alone. "** > ..... I've not read what the commentary said, however few points: a) Buddha didn't forbid physical seclusion b) Buddha has emphasized that there is ADDITIONAL requirement. Seclusion from craving and hankering after past & future. Here the aloneness, is seclusion from perhaps all defilements = Arahatship. Please provide a precise sutta where the Buddha has said: "Being a recluse monk is unneccesery, you can be an Arahant as a householder and household life isn't a hindrance." > > A:> Hindrances have more material causes at home > ... > S: Lobha is lobha whenever, wherever it arises. >>> But in some places this Lobha is MUCH MORE powerful than in others. Furthermore in some places it can be expressed more easily, while less in others. Some things are more lobha stimulating (a shopping mall or an adult store), some less (retreat setting with only barest neccesities). > .... > S: Yes, 'sensual desire is an obstacle' whenever it arises. >>> In some places it is simply too strong to be resisted. Furthermore, as a general rule, when it arises and grows to be strong, it is too late. >>>>> If it arises now, then now is the time and opportunity to be aware and understand it. >>>>> It arose due to unawareness, avijja, helped by external stimuli. So if it arose due to lapses of mindfulness and such, it means that mindfulness now is weak, thus how good can this opportunity be? It is lost opportunity, lapse of mindfulness. > If we wait for another 'setting', when there is no sensual desire, There are lots of sensual desire in retreats, or even in caves, if some people meditate there. However, due to lack of external stimuli - the desire is weaker and the beginner may have at least *some* chance of regrouping and attacking. >it will never be known, the path will never be followed. Start with light weight before lifting heavy weight. > S: Hmmm... 'Formal meditation' is a concept, an idea. >> If it helps it helps. PROVE to me that material in Abhidhamma isn't "an idea, abstraction, conceptualization, etc". This is crazy to reason that "concepts don't exist". Walls, people, cars, trains do perform certain functions! You wouldn't want to jump under the train or to walk through the wall, do you? The fully developed idea of this is similiar to Ken's pernicious view that "there isn't anyone, so no one suffers." ... So, no knife... No victim, no Bus, no harm done. BULL! Terrible! > S: Secondly, conceit is always unwholesome, no matter how you read >the suttas. Read AN4.159 - The Bhikkuni Sutta. The Ananda has clearly said that conceit aimed at removing conceit is GOOD. No offence Sarah, but between you and Ananda, I choose Ananda. "'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then, at a later time, he abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html Best wishes, Alex #88685 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 10:02 am Subject: Alex Was Wrong About Ekaggataa Re: Concentration with every citta abhidhammika Dear Alex, Howard, Phil, Tep, Nina, Mike N, Herman, Sarah, Jon How are you? I dropped in. I could not stand Alex dropping a big rock on his toes while doing the good work. Alex wrote: "Concentration cannot coexist with restlessness simulteneously, thus one can't claim that ekaggata is always present. Thus, the statement that ALL cittas are accompanied by "ekaggata" is false." What Nina wrote was true when she said one-pointednes occurring in every citta. So, when Alex wrote, "Thus, the statement that ALL cittas are accompanied by "ekaggata" is false", what he wrote was different from Abhidhamma, or bluntly put, wrong. But, it appeared that Nina was trying to equate a simple ekaggataa with sammaa samaadhi, the right concentration. If she indeed equated sabbacittasaadhaara.na ekaggataa with sammaa samaadhi, this act of equating was diffrent from Abhidhamma, so not acceptable. Sorry, Nina. You must have associated with the wrong teachers who misled you. Ekaggataa can arise in an akusala cittam as can in any cittam. But, sammaa samaadhi cannot arise in an akusala cittam. I am an advanced practitioner of samatha and vipassanaa by purposeful following of Aanaapaanassati as taught by the Buddha in Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam and other Suttas. If a simple arising of ekaggataa in each cittam counted as sammaa sammaa samaadhi, the Buddha would not have wasted his time teaching satipa.t.thaanaa. By the way, the term 'satipa.t.thaanaa' occurs 384 times in Pali Texts comprising original Nikaaya Pali texts and their commentaries. If the Buddha repeated the term 'satipa.t.thaanaa' so many times, we must take note and take it seriously. It must be vitally and compulsorily important. We can find Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam in Diighanikaaya as well as Majjhimanikaaya. And, many more teachings and prescriptions on Satipa.t.thaanaa occur in Samyuttanikaaya, (where Satipa.t.thaana Samyuttam in Mahaavaggo is a must for the formal practitioners of Samatha and Vipassanaa), Anguttaranikaaya, and Kuddakanikaaya where Satipa.t.thaana Vibhango occurs in Vibhango, the Second Book of Abhidhama Pi.taka. Cheers! Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #88686 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 10:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 3. truth_aerator Dear Tep and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > T: So it seems that almost everything the Buddha taught about Sila > and Samadhi cannot be attained without right understanding. >> Jhana without Right Understanding won't make one awakened, but it'll give a very good supportive & helpful kamma for understanding. Jhana + conceptual right view is like lighting a match and throwing it into gasoline. > In other > words, the whole Buddha-sassana (the Dhamma-vinaya) boils down to >one thing "Right Understanding" in Nina's view. Right Understanding as taught by Nina? Oh boy, we have a new Buddha. Panna Aggregate is based on Samadhi. Samadhi aggregate is based on Sila (mn43 or 44). Sila -> samma-Samadhi -> Panna. Best wishes, Alex #88687 From: "Tep" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 11:12 am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 3. dhammanusarin Hello Alex, - I wrote: > > In other words, the whole Buddha-sassana (the Dhamma-vinaya) > > boils down to one thing "Right Understanding" in Nina's view. >Alex: >Right Understanding as taught by Nina? Oh boy, we have a new Buddha. >Panna Aggregate is based on Samadhi. Samadhi aggregate is based on >Sila (mn43 or 44). > Sila -> samma-Samadhi -> Panna. T: Thanks, Alex. The above sequential development, or training, has also been rejected by Nina, Sarah and other "hard-core" DSG members. Nina, for example, has written reapeatedly that Sila, Samadhi and Pa~n~na arise at the same "moment", not sequentially. Even a thousand more sutta quotes would not change her view, so please don't try. Tep === #88688 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 11:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration with every citta nilovg Hi Alex, Op 4-aug-2008, om 0:23 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > P1) You claim that concentration is present with every citta. > P2) Cittas acompanied by restlessness do exist > > Concentration cannot coexist with restlessness simulteneously, thus > one can't claim that ekaggata is always present. > > Thus, the statement that ALL cittas are accompanied by "ekaggata" is > false. ------- N: No, it is correct. Alex, it makes an enormous difference what type of citta one-pointedness, ekkagata cetasika, accompanies. It is influenced by the citta and other cetasikas it accompanies. In the Patthanaa we learn: coexistent naama-dhammas, citta and cetasikas, can condition one another by mutuality. Ekaggata cetasika accompanies restlessness and it makes citta focus on the object of restlessness. It has an object, each citta experiences an object. When it accompanies akusala citta that is intent on stealing, it makes citta focus on the object in an unwholesome way. When it accompanies citta that is generous, it is conditioned by calm and detachment and many other sobhana cetasikas. It almost seems another ekkagata cetasika, but it still makes citta focus on the object, and this in a wholesome way. When it accompanies jhana it has a high degree of calm. Thus, there is an immense variety, but it is all the time ekaggata cetasika performing its function of focussing on an object. This cetasika is one of the universals, arising with each citta. (See Abhidhammattha Sangaha, the Guide). Nina. #88689 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 3. nilovg Hi Tep and Howard, Op 4-aug-2008, om 15:19 heeft Tep het volgende geschreven: > T: So it seems that almost everything the Buddha taught about Sila > and Samadhi cannot be attained without right understanding. In other > words, the whole Buddha-sassana (the Dhamma-vinaya) boils down to one > thing "Right Understanding" in Nina's view. ------- N: Dana and sila can also be performed without right understanding, but samatha and vipassana cannot. For instance, it is very useful and necessary to understand the different cittas in samatha. When there is a pleasant sensation throughout the body, does one like it? Is this lobha? I am so impressed by the description in the Visuddhimagga: one has to begin quite removed from any sense pleasures. As higher jhana stages are attained, there can be detachment from piti, rapture, and after that from happy feeling, sukha, which is of the highest degree and very refined. Think of the amount of detachment that takes. There is great purity at such moments. Strong sati and pa~n~naa are needed here. ------ > > T: What are supporting conditions for Right Understanding? > > I often heard this reply: Listening and considering the Dhamma (and > nothing else). Right understanding will then accumulate. No practice > of any kind is required. -------- N: Yes, development is necessary. First of all one has to understand the meaning of beyond control and anatta in this development. It is hard to explain, because we take it for granted that "I " do everything the whole day. It is so engrained, hard to let it go, it takes humility brought about by understanding. Not making sati arise, but understanding, really understnding that it arises because of its own conditions, not because "I" try. Conditions which also stem from the past, even past lives: good deeds in the past, listening in the past. Who has control over that, it is already past. Hearing and firm remembrance, also confidence: this is the right Path, it has to be followed from the beginnign with detachment from the idea of "I do it". It can become an attitude of life and reflect in one's deeds and speech. It can and should lead to becoming less self-centered. I heard this morning; "Why did the Buddha teach that seeing is impermanent? Should we just listen to this and think with indifference (kid chej/chej) or develop understanding now? It takes a long time of development, ciira kala bhaavanaa, to know what appears now." Thus, we read in the sutta: is seeing impermanent? Then we know that we should attend to the characteristic of seeing and all realities that appear over and over again. Later on their impermanence can be realized. Nina. #88690 From: "Tep" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 12:07 pm Subject: Alex Was Wrong About Ekaggataa Re: Concentration with every citta dhammanusarin Hi Suan (and Alex), - You and Alex are talking about ekaggata. > >Alex: "Concentration cannot coexist with restlessness simulteneously, thus one can't claim that ekaggata is always present. Thus, the statement that ALL cittas are accompanied by "ekaggata" is false." >Suan: What Nina wrote was true when she said one-pointednes occurring in every citta. So, when Alex wrote, "Thus, the statement that ALL cittas are accompanied by "ekaggata" is false", what he wrote was different from Abhidhamma, or bluntly put, wrong. T: The only thing I understand about 'ekaggata' is that it is a characteristic of samadhi. So it is clear that other cittas, that are not associated with samadhi, cannot be accompanied by ekaggata. ...................... One-pointedness (ekaggata) "Unlike the previous four jhana factors, one-pointedness is not specifically mentioned in the standard formula for the first jhana, but it is included among the jhana factors by the Mahavedalla Sutta (M.i,294) as well as in the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. One- pointedness is a universal mental concomitant, the factor by virtue of which the mind is centered upon its object. It brings the mind to a single point, the point occupied by the object. "One-pointedness is used in the text as a synonym for concentration (samadhi) which has the characteristic of non-distraction, the function of eliminating distractions, non-wavering as its manifestation, and happiness as its proximate cause (Vism.85; PP.85). As a jhana factor one-pointedness is always directed to a wholesome object and wards off unwholesome influences, in particular the hindrance of sensual desire. As the hindrances are absent in jhana one-pointedness acquires special strength, based on the previous sustained effort of concentration. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html#ch 3.2 ..................... > Suan: > > Ekaggataa can arise in an akusala cittam as can in any cittam. > > But, sammaa samaadhi cannot arise in an akusala cittam. > > If a simple arising of ekaggataa in each cittam counted as > sammaa samaadhi, the Buddha would not have wasted his time teaching > satipa.t.thaanaa. > ................ T: You are right about the fact that ekaggata can be associated with an akusala citta; so it is a proof that ekaggata does not accompany EVERY citta. But how does satipa.t.thaanaa connect to sammaa samaadhi? Tep === #88691 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 12:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration with every citta truth_aerator Hi Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Alex, > Op 4-aug-2008, om 0:23 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > P1) You claim that concentration is present with every citta. > > P2) Cittas acompanied by restlessness do exist > > > > Concentration cannot coexist with restlessness simulteneously, >thus > > one can't claim that ekaggata is always present. > > > > Thus, the statement that ALL cittas are accompanied by "ekaggata" >is > > false. > ------- > N: > Ekaggata cetasika accompanies restlessness and it makes citta focus >on the object of restlessness. It has an object, each citta > experiences an object. Isn't restlesness an absence of focus on one thing, and a dispersal of attention somewhere else? Since "there is only one citta happening at a time", isn't it tautological to say that there is one pointedness since no alternatives in any case exist? In this case restlessness can't even exist since there is always one-pointedness (an exclusive feature, like night cannot coexist with day at exactly the same place & time). Thank you for your reply Nina, Best wishes, Alex #88692 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 8:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 3. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Tep) - In a message dated 8/4/2008 3:04:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Tep and Howard, Op 4-aug-2008, om 15:19 heeft Tep het volgende geschreven: > T: So it seems that almost everything the Buddha taught about Sila > and Samadhi cannot be attained without right understanding. In other > words, the whole Buddha-sassana (the Dhamma-vinaya) boils down to one > thing "Right Understanding" in Nina's view. ------- N: Dana and sila can also be performed without right understanding, but samatha and vipassana cannot. For instance, it is very useful and necessary to understand the different cittas in samatha. When there is a pleasant sensation throughout the body, does one like it? Is this lobha? I am so impressed by the description in the Visuddhimagga: one has to begin quite removed from any sense pleasures. As higher jhana stages are attained, there can be detachment from piti, rapture, and after that from happy feeling, sukha, which is of the highest degree and very refined. Think of the amount of detachment that takes. There is great purity at such moments. Strong sati and pa~n~naa are needed here. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: From, AN 9.42 there is the following, Nina: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Now there is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that directed thought & evaluation have not ceased. This is the confining place there. "Then there is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that rapture has not ceased. This is the confining place there. "Then there is the case where a monk, with the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, is mindful & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that the pleasure of equanimity has not ceased. This is the confining place there. "Then there is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. ..." - - - - - - - - - - - - The deficit in the 1st jhana is the directing and sustaining of attention, which requires effort, and that is felt as an imperfection. Letting go of that, entry to the 2nd jhana is made, where rapture & pleasure remain. The deficit there is the excitement and relative grossness of the rapture, and letting that go leads into the 3rd jhana, where pleasure still remains. That pleasure is felt as an imperfection, and, only then, letting go of the pleasure leads into the equanimity of the 4th jhana. No book learning is needed to detect that letting go of an imperfection is to the good. This is natural provided deleterious conditions don't interfere. What takes one into the 1st jhana to begin with is the beckoning of a bliss that is so superior to that of one's usual state. All that holds one back is the hindrances. ================================= With metta, Howard /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #88693 From: "Tep" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 2:32 pm Subject: Re: SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? .. No nore disagreement .... dhammanusarin Hi Sarah, - The act of adding together or heaping up (of associated dhammas) that characterizes "accumulations" indicates that accumulating is formations (sankhara). Thank you for quoting this commentary (the Mahanidana Sutta) : "Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, ACCUMULATING, lustfulness, and lustlessness. and [the meaning] of existence as ACCUMULATING, volitionally forming, and throwing beings into the different modes of origin." >Sarah: Accumulating is happening right now - the accumulating of understanding (or not) that can be a condition as upanissiya paccaya (support condition) or asevena paccya (repetition condition) for more understanding and so it keeps accumulating until there are enough conditions for deep insight to arise. Not by self or wanting or freewill but by the right conditions. T: Since I understand the accumulating action as volitional formations, there is no doubt as to the anatta nature of such a sankhara dhamma [ 'Sabba sankhara anicca'. 'Sabba sankhara dukkha'. Thus anything that is impermanent and subject to suffering is anatta and should not be regarded as a self.] . But your wordings above give an impression that "accumulating of understanding" is an 'atta' that perpetually "keeps accumulating until there are enough conditions for deep insight to arise" ! T: The following explanation about samadhi accumulation does not sound like the perpetual motion driven by a self. ................... T: There are four aspects that are origin (samudaya) of the concentration faculty (samadhindriya). Ptsm IV, 9 : "The origin of adverting with the purpose of non-distraction is the origin of the concentration faculty. The origin of zeal through the influence of the non-distraction is the origin of the concentration faculty. The origin of attention through the influence of the non-distraction is the origin of the concentration faculty. The establishment in unity through the influence of the concentration faculty is the origin of the concentration faculty." ........................ T: So we see that non-distraction originates adverting (of the citta) for the sake of non-distraction, zeal(chanda), attention; it also influences mental unification. In turn (somewhat like a non-linear feedback) the four dhammas (i.e. adverting, zeal, attention, unity) become the origin of the concentration faculty. This passage beautifully describes how a meditator trains in higher concentration (adhicitta sikkha). http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SariputtaDhamma/message/6949 ......................... >S: Here are a few quotes from old posts in U.P. under 'anusaya'. There'd be plenty more under 'accumulations': T: Thank you so much for the additional information that makes it clearer. ........................ > >Tep : The Mahasatipatthana Sutta, DN 22, makes clear about the urgency of the path practice to attain arahantship, or anagamiship, in 7 days up to 7 years. ... > S: I apologise for any offence caused when I questioned the intentions in having particular results. Perhaps we can just agree that when there is any right understanding of dhammas at the present moment, there is a sense of urgency -there is no doubt that this is the way, the way which will lead to the final goal. T: I think you also deserve my apology for thinking of your previous remarks as an accusation. Sarah (#88516): Planning on time-frames for outcomes particularly misses the point about conditioned dhammas. Even amongst the Buddha's disciples, we can see how different accumulations and conditions were. I think the attachment to results and time-frames is a huge hindrance to the gradual development as outlined in the sutta you quoted above. It's almost a recipe for wrong practice and fantasies about attainments or despair if and when they clearly haven't come about. T: I agree with you that attachment (clinging, upadana) to even the Dhamma is a huge drawback. That's why the Buddha taught His disciples the value of letting go of the Dhamma like putting away a "Raft" that was used to cross over to "the further shore". MN 22: "There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having dragged it on dry land or sinking it in the water, go wherever I like?' In doing this, he would be doing what should be done with the raft. In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas." Tep === #88694 From: "colette" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 8:33 am Subject: Re: SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? ksheri3 Good Morning Tep, I am not a robot if my previous post to you suggested that my use of the word "order" was as if a main frame computer or a meglamaniac (a devotee of EGO) was at the store marked "YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT" where the meglamaniac says (places the order): "I wanna be fast cheap and greasy" then drives up to a window and "Shazam", if the shoe fits, no? The Gelug school and the Kagyu school are both "orders" within the Buddhist community and I simply ment that some of their members are watching me and my activities on the net as a means of making sure that I get the correct view or Right View from reliable resources -- during the 1990s, here in Chicago, I lived up near "New China Town", I lived at Lawrence and Beacon, which is very close to a Buddhist Temple. I saw, many times, the safron robes of the Sangha monks walking around the neighborhood. At that time I was practicing Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism, so they are aware of my "crazy wisdom" or strange behavior, they accept it, and they know that I can be worked with through the acceptance instead of the rejection. At this moment I have had an EXTREMELY TRAUMATIC experience -- trauma here can be viewed as that instant when "Illumination" or "the clear light" becomes the only part of anything "real", for instance "everything" becomes the clear light. Take for instance waves. In a wave that is "immersing" the body such as "hot flashes", the person is immersed in the condition that is part of a process almost as if an amusement park's ride called the Roller Coaster. VISUALIZATION please, picture this in your mind, the roller coaster. Now picture how the schematic would appear if drawn on a piece of paper to illuminate or illustrate WAVE THEORY or even a RADIO WAVE. What we see are Zeniths and Nadirs (peaks and valleys) the highest point of the peak would be the zenith and the lowest point in the valley would be the nadir. BUT, it is still part of the roller coaster equation and visualization, in fact, the roller coaster representation is or has become the reality I speak of so that your Mind's Eye can relate to my words, my concepts, and realize what it is that I'm saying. Peaks and Valleys, highs & lows, look at the two dimensional graph of the radio wave and place yourself as if on a peak or in a valley and I ask you as if you were in one of those two positions: Can you see very far and do you see everything before you? If you're on a peak there is no way that you could see into the valleys since the other peaks are OBSCURING your view and if you were in a valley there is no way that you could see past the "upward mobility" of the peak directly in front of you. They are both, however, nothing more than OBSCURATIONS. The Zenith and the Nadir are the same. In meditations the objectivity is to manifest the calm stillness of a stagnant lake or ocean that does not fluctuate, becomes like a sheet of glass, becomes the mirror, maybe I'm overstepping my bounds a bit but this is Samaya Tantra, but also a prerequisite for Kaula Tantra, here the vehicle used is the only difference to achieve the same goal i.e. the Kaula Tantra advocates and requires the actual physical manifestation of the actions, such as prostrations, or mantras or... I conceived and was overwhelmed by the sensations from the Madhyamaka and Shunyata over the weekend, SAturday, to be exact, and I conceived it as the Lions Roar technique. This is where I may be overstepping my bounds since I know it is a technique, I know it exists, but I may've miss identified it and now need to continue my work on the presumption that I have been given the chance to possess it. We are gonna get there Tep, have faith in the practice. I totally blew away the neophytes in these Western cartoon Lodges such as found with Fred Flinstone and Barney Rubble or Ralph Cramden and Ed Norton, iepicting Masonic Lodges or other "secret society" lodges, but I blew them away when I told them, in 2004, that "My Confidence Level is 100%" and I do not care who you are but there is no way in statistics that you can find a scientist or researcher to give you the certainty of a "100% Confidence Level" it just does not exist, but I have been working these things since 1978 and am 100% certain that it does exist, it can be worked with, it craves companionship, etc. <....> And so I simply say, Have faith in me and what we are both doing. Faith, in this respect, can go a long way since last night I clearly visualized in my meditations the IMPOSSIBILITY for "Space" to exist i.e. if a person is said to be "progressing" then they are going from Point A to Point B and this automatically manifests a space or spacial quality to identify the only thing that actually exists, the here & now; but they hallucinate that they are progressing from Point A to Point B but I, as a disinterested third party that is simply observing them can plainly see that they are not going anywhere so they are deluding themselves, under the effects of a hallucinegenic drug such as a salaried paycheck (the adrenylin rush they get when those addicts deposit the money is tremendous) or when they ingest that caffiene found in teas and coffees, or when they have that Gatoraide during high stress sporting events or even when they are like Leary & Metzger taking LSD back in the 60s and they notice the similarities between the effects of LSD on the mind and documentation found on the BArdo state of consciousness in the Tibetan Book of the Dead, they all change the chemical compososition of the mind and the brain. Lucy Stafford (wingedserpent, or something to that effect), if you're still out there watching my displays then I certainly speak to you concerning the post you gave me concerning "FAITH". toodles, colette > T: Thank you so much for the effort to answer my questions. But there > is no hurry. So it is allright to delay your reply as long as > necesary. > > Sincerely, > > Tep > === > #88695 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 4:06 pm Subject: Alex Was Wrong About Ekaggataa Re: Concentration with every citta kenhowardau Hi Suan, ------------ S: > I dropped in. I could not stand Alex dropping a big rock on his toes while doing the good work. ------------- What is "the good work" in this case? Alex has not yet made up his mind as to whether there is consciousness after parinibbana or as to whether anatta was true or just a strategy (as Ven. Thanissaro teaches): he believes the ancient commentaries are wrong and the Abhidhamma was not the teaching of the Buddha. Alex argues incessantly against anything and everything that stands between him and his beloved ritualistic practices. Is that what you call "the good work?" ------------------------ S: > What Nina wrote was true when she said one-pointednes occurring in every citta. <. . .> But, it appeared that Nina was trying to equate a simple ekaggataa with sammaa samaadhi, the right concentration. If she indeed equated sabbacittasaadhaara.na ekaggataa with sammaa samaadhi, this act of equating was diffrent from Abhidhamma, so not acceptable. Sorry, Nina. You must have associated with the wrong teachers who misled you. Ekaggataa can arise in an akusala cittam as can in any cittam. But, sammaa samaadhi cannot arise in an akusala cittam. ----------------------- I was very sorry to read that, Suan. Until now I had assumed you were quite genuine in your study of the Pali Canon. You wanted to protect your beloved formal practices, but I thought you were prepared at the same time to engage in honest, genuine discussion and scholarship. Nina is quite often subjected to appalling bad manners at DSG. Formal meditators will stop at nothing to protect what is most dear to them, and this includes insulting someone who is doing her best to help. You have been reading DSG for many years, and you know full well that Nina knows a great deal of Abhidhamma. You know she does not believe that samma-samadhi occurs with every citta. Only a fool would believe that. And yet that is exactly what you are publicly accusing her of. -------------------- S: > I am an advanced practitioner of samatha and vipassanaa ------------------- No, you are not. You are just another religious devotee desperately clinging to his sense of self. --------------------- S : > by purposeful following of Aanaapaanassati as taught by the Buddha in Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam and other Suttas. -------------------- Yesterday I referred to a meditation instruction-manual written by Sayadaw U Silananda. It lamented an apparent omission that must mystify every religious student of the Pali Canon: 'why are there no instructions here for formal meditation?' In fact, there is no such incongruity in the texts, and the omission was not by accident. Members of DSG, and students of K Sujin, can learn that the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries were never intended for teaching formal (conventional) religion. Their intention was to teach the way of conditioned paramattha dhammas. Please, Suan, do yourself a favour and listen! Ken H #88696 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 4:28 pm Subject: Alex Was Wrong About Ekaggataa Re: Concentration with every citta truth_aerator Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > What is "the good work" in this case? Alex has not yet made up his > mind as to whether there is consciousness after parinibbana or as >to > whether anatta was true or just a strategy (as Ven. Thanissaro > teaches): PariNibbana is total cessation of body & mind. So it is a final "death" of the 5 aggregates without any sort of rebooting happening. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/88681 I've written that in Message #88681 written TODAY. Please don't use strawman fallacies. The rest of your comments and this omission speaks more about you than me. Best wishes, Alex #88697 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 4:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration with every citta egberdina Hi Alex, 2008/8/5 Alex : > Hi Nina and all, > >> >> > P1) You claim that concentration is present with every citta. >> > P2) Cittas acompanied by restlessness do exist >> > >> > Concentration cannot coexist with restlessness simulteneously, >>thus >> > one can't claim that ekaggata is always present. >> > >> > Thus, the statement that ALL cittas are accompanied by "ekaggata" >>is >> > false. >> ------- >> N: >> Ekaggata cetasika accompanies restlessness and it makes citta focus >>on the object of restlessness. It has an object, each citta >> experiences an object. > > Isn't restlesness an absence of focus on one thing, and a dispersal > of attention somewhere else? > > Since "there is only one citta happening at a time", isn't it > tautological to say that there is one pointedness since no > alternatives in any case exist? In this case restlessness can't even > exist since there is always one-pointedness (an exclusive feature, > like night cannot coexist with day at exactly the same place & time). > You may safely ignore all talk of universal cetasikas. It is the most basic understanding of perception that the characteristic of anything that is supposedly present in all cases is unknowable. Even more so if there are supposedly seven of these. A characteristic is made known by what it is not, what makes it different to other things. Blue is made known by what is not blue, pain is made known by what is not pain. If something is always there, it cannot be known. The universal cetasikas are nothing more than the most amazing sophistry. And I say amazing, because so many people are still fooled by them. Cheers Herman #88698 From: mlnease Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 4:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Alex Was Wrong About Ekaggataa Re: Concentration with every citta m_nease Hi Ken, Thanks for your spirited defense of our friend Nina. It's certainly true that her kindness on the list is often repaid with rudeness and defamation. So be it, this is to be expected, it is, I think, in the natural order of things. In our best moments we may remember that there is no insulter behind the insult and no one insulted, that there are just different moments of seeing, thinking and so on, usually leading to the imagination of people, events etc. into which there can be no real insight which, after all, is the only thing that matters. All conditioned and impermanent, no one behind any of it, right or wrong unless I'm much mistaken. Eh? mike #88699 From: "Tep" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 5:28 pm Subject: Re: [was] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka,.. . Right Understanding... dhammanusarin Hi Nina (Howard, Alex and others), - It is a surprise for me to see a full reply/explanation about 'right understanding' from you so soon, even though you've been busy lately. Thank you very much for the sacrifice. Please think of my discussion below as simply a different viewpoint, rather than a contention. >N: Dana and sila can also be performed without right understanding, but samatha and vipassana cannot. For instance, it is very useful and necessary to understand the different cittas in samatha. When there is a pleasant sensation throughout the body, does one like it? Is this lobha? T: You know what, I have no problem understanding when there is a pleasant or unpleasant sensation throughout this body, and whether I like it or not. I also know it every time, when there is lobha or raga or dosa (or the absence thereof) associated with a feeling. I think anybody can understand such phenomena the same way I can, if they are possessed of adequate mindful attention. Therefore, I would not call that mundane awareness a 'right understanding'. To me "right understanding" is 'samma ~naana' that is conditioned by right concentration(samma samadhi) that consists of at least the 1st jhaana. It is beyond the world; it is lokuttara. And so I would call any mundane awareness simply as 'understanding' or 'knowing' which is less than 'discerning' in the 'pajanati' sense of the Satipatthana bhavana. Again, this is a viewpoint -- not a contention. For example : 'Sadosam va cittam sadosam cittanti pajanati'. This is a right understanding associated with an established mindfulness on consciousness. ['When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion'. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation. 'A bhikkhu understands the consciousness with hate, as with hate'. Soma Thera's translation.] ...................... >N: I am so impressed by the description in the Visuddhimagga: one has to begin quite removed from any sense pleasures. As higher jhana stages are attained, there can be detachment from piti, rapture, and after that from happy feeling, sukha, which is of the highest degree and very refined. Think of the amount of detachment that takes. There is great purity at such moments. Strong sati and pa~n~naa are needed here. T: Those jhaana stages define samma-samadhi, the eighth magga factor. The strong pa~n~naa of that level is possibly the samma ~naana as described above. "When one abides uninflamed by lust, unfettered, uninfatuated, contemplating danger, then the five aggregates affected by clinging are diminished for oneself in the future; and one's craving – which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust, and delights in this or that – is abandoned. One's bodily and mental troubles are abandoned, one's bodily and mental torments are abandoned, one's bodily and mental fevers are abandoned, and one experiences bodily and mental pleasure. The view of a person such as this is right view. His intention is right intention, his effort is right effort, his mindfulness is right mindfulness, his concentration is right concentration. ..." [MN 149] The pa~n~naa on the path, when all 8 magga factors arise (ekarasa), is rightly qualified as "right understanding", I believe. ........................ >N: Yes, development is necessary. First of all one has to understand the meaning of beyond control and anatta in this development. It is hard to explain, because we take it for granted that "I " do everything the whole day. It is so engrained, hard to let it go, it takes humility brought about by understanding. Not making sati arise, but understanding, really understanding that it arises because of its own conditions, not because "I" try. T: I agree that this higher understanding, that is beyond the "I am" , mine, and my self, has to be developed by vipassana bhavana as in Anatta-lakkhana Sutta. But this means the bhikkhu is on the path with a right understanding to begin with. ...................... >N: Conditions which also stem from the past, even past lives: good deeds in the past, listening in the past. Who has control over that, it is already past. T: Yes, that's true. ....................... >N: Hearing and firm remembrance, also confidence: this is the right Path, it has to be followed from the beginning with detachment from the idea of "I do it". It can become an attitude of life and reflect in one's deeds and speech. It can and should lead to becoming less self-centered. T: But without the 8 magga factors as supporting conditions there is no right Path. Right? Given that one has the right attitude (mundane right view) about the Dhamma, then s/he can contemplate on not-self and practice detachment without the idea of "I do it". Yes, I believe that makes sense. However, such unstable mental state (it is not firm due to lack of unification of cognizance) will have to be re-established again and again, because it is not supported by right concentration yet. With stronger wisdom that gets closer and closer to right understanding, then "it can and should lead to becoming less self- centered" as you said. .............................. >N: I heard this morning; "Why did the Buddha teach that seeing is impermanent? Should we just listen to this and think with indifference (kid chej/chej) or develop understanding now? It takes a long time of development, ciira kala bhaavanaa, to know what appears now." Thus, we read in the sutta: is seeing impermanent? Then we know that we should attend to the characteristic of seeing and all realities that appear over and over again. Later on their impermanence can be realized. T: That is a very good example, Nina. Yes, I think what you describe is qualified as "development" of mundane understanding that can lead to realization of impermanence. ............................. Thank you for the patience, Nina. Tep === #88700 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 5:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Hindrances egberdina Hi Sarah, 2008/8/4 sarah abbott : > Hi Alex (Tep & all), > > > I've quoted the Thera Sutta several times before, but maybe not to you. Taken from my earlier messages: > >>S:In the Thera Sutta (SN 21:10 'A Bhikkhu Named Elder in the B.Bodhi > transl.), it seems a number of bhikkhus thought it was strange for Thera > to live alone, go for alms alone, return alone, sit and walk alone and so > they raised the issue with the Buddha. > > The Buddha summoned Thera who confirmed he lived and followed all these > activities alone and also praised living alone. > > The Buddha doesn't disagree, but said : > > "That is a way of dwelling alone, Elder, I do not deny this. But as to how > dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail, listen to that and attend closely, > I will speak." > > "Yes, venerable sir." > > "And how, Elder, is dwelling alone fulfilled in detail? Here, Elder, what > lies in the past has been abandoned, what lies in the future has been > relinquished, and desire and lust for present forms of individual > existence has been thoroughly removed.* It is in such a way, Elder, that > dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail." > > This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, > the Teacher, further said this: > > "The wise one, all-conqueror, all-knower, > Among all things unsullied, with all cast off, > Liberated in the destruction of craving: > I call that person �one who dwells alone. "** > ..... I was reminded of this sutta, which puts quite a different spin on exactly the same scenario. Ud2:10 Thus have I heard. At one time the Lord was staying at Anupiya in the Mango Orchard. At that time the Venerable Bhaddiya, Kaligodha's son, on going into the forest to the foot of a tree or to an empty place, constantly uttered, "Ah, what bliss! Ah, what bliss!" A number of bhikkhus heard the Venerable Bhaddiya... constantly uttering, "Ah, what bliss! Ah, what bliss!" and the thought came to them: "No doubt, friend, the Venerable Bhaddiya, Kaligodha's son, is dissatisfied with leading the holy life, since formerly when he was a householder he enjoyed the bliss of royalty. And when recollecting that, on going into the forest... he utters, 'Ah, what bliss! Ah, what bliss!'" Then a number of bhikkhus approached the Lord, prostrated themselves, sat down to one side, and reported this to the Lord. Then the Lord addressed a certain bhikkhu: "Come, bhikkhu, in my name tell the bhikkhu Bhaddiya, 'The Teacher calls you, friend Bhaddiya.'" "Very well, revered sir," the bhikkhu replied and approaching the Venerable Bhaddiya, Kaligodha's son, he said, "The Teacher calls you, friend Bhaddiya." "Very well, friend," the Venerable Bhaddiya replied, and approaching the Lord he prostrated himself and sat down to one side. The Lord then said to him: "Is it true, Bhaddiya, that on going into the forest... you utter, 'Ah, what bliss! Ah, what bliss!'?" "Yes, revered sir." "But, Bhaddiya, what do you see that prompts you to do so?" "Formerly, revered sir, when I was a householder and enjoyed the bliss of royalty, inside and outside my inner apartments guards were appointed; inside and outside the city guards were appointed; inside and outside the district guards were appointed. But, revered sir, although I was thus guarded and protected, I lived fearful, agitated, distrustful, and afraid. But now, revered sir, on going alone into the forest, to the foot of a tree or to an empty place, I am fearless, unagitated, confident, and unafraid. I live unconcerned, unruffled, my needs satisfied, with a mind become like a deer's. Seeing this, revered sir, prompts me, on going to the forest... to utter constantly, 'Ah, what bliss! Ah, what bliss!'" Then, on realizing its significance, the Lord uttered on that occasion this inspired utterance: In whom exist no inner stirrings, Having passed beyond being this or that, Free from fear, blissful and sorrowless, The devas are not capable of seeing him. Cheers Herman #88701 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 8:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Alex Was Wrong About Ekaggataa Re: Concentration with every citta kenhowardau Hi Mike, > In our best moments we may remember that there is no insulter behind the > insult and no one insulted, that there are just different moments of > seeing, thinking and so on, usually leading to the imagination of > people, events etc. into which there can be no real insight which, after > all, is the only thing that matters. All conditioned and impermanent, > no one behind any of it, right or wrong unless I'm much mistaken. > > Eh? > > Thanks for the excellent reminder, Mike. BTW, I've always liked what you see as the essential difference between dhammas and concepts. It would save a lot of trouble if, instead of arguing interminably over their ultimately real or illusory natures, I simply referred - as you do - to which are suitable for satipatthana and which aren't. Ken H #88702 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 8:53 pm Subject: Alex Was Wrong About Ekaggataa Re: Concentration with every citta kenhowardau Hi Alex, This is not the first time you have become the meat in the sandwich. On the previous occasion I had to assure you that, contrary to James's analysis, I did not hate you! :-) The same applies now, of course. My real aim was to ascertain why Suan approved of your posts the way he did. (He has singled you out for special approval on at least two occasions that I can think of.) Suan is, after all, an "Abhidhammaika," whereas you are somewhat opposed to the Abhidhamma. So there must be something else in your posts that he likes so much. I've made my opinions clear enough - perhaps too clearly. Do you have any thoughts on the matter? Ken H PS: I am glad you came to the right conclusion on the parinibbana question. But you *were* inclined the other way just recently, weren't you? I was right about that. Please tell me I haven't gone completely senile! :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Ken, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > What is "the good work" in this case? Alex has not yet made up his > > mind as to whether there is consciousness after parinibbana or as >to > > whether anatta was true or just a strategy (as Ven. Thanissaro > > teaches): > > PariNibbana is total cessation of body & mind. So it is a > final "death" of the 5 aggregates without any sort of rebooting > happening. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/88681 > > I've written that in Message #88681 written TODAY. Please don't use > strawman fallacies. The rest of your comments and this omission speaks > more about you than me. > > #88703 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Aug 4, 2008 9:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Hindrances egberdina Hi Sarah, 2008/8/4 sarah abbott : > Hi Alex (Tep & all), > > ... > S: I don't use any approach. Don't you? I don't believe you :-) (I'm smiling, but I still do not believe you) Your consistent usage of a certain idiom, speaking about dhammas, and panna, and the present moment etc etc makes me believe that you do have an approach. And that approach is to understand whatever happens at any time in a way that K Sujin teaches you to understand it. There is nothing wrong with having that approach, but it won't hurt yourself or anyone else to acknowledge that this is your approach. >I'm just interested in understanding dhammas at the present moment. This of course is the >work of pa~n~naa, not of 'me' following an approach or doing anything. Yes, but that is your approach. It is what makes you you. > ... >>>S: What about now, Alex? Can there be seclusion at this moment? > ... > A:> Yes, but too many distractions, and the kilesas are strong. Retreat > setting is generally much more helpful. No books, no internet, no > endless chores, etc. > ... > S: This indicates a lack of confidence in the understanding of dhammas at the present moment. I think it rather shows a correct understanding of the conditions that will hinder development, and those that will promote development. > I don't see any distinction (or distraction from the path) when there are books and chores vs >the 'quiet' environment. It is the citta now which counts, Alex. That's all. The rest are ideas >about 'situations', not the understanding of seeing or hearing which has been conditioned now. If it is the citta now that counts, then what are the books for, Sarah? Since when is the seeing of meanings in patterns of black and white an understanding of the present moment? > > A:> Hindrances have more material causes at home > ... > S: Lobha is lobha whenever, wherever it arises. This is indiscriminate, black and white thinking. Ever wondered why some can attain samatha and others can't? Because not all lobha is of the same degree. You could not possibly hope to understand the present if you live in a binary, on/off world. > .... > S: Yes, 'sensual desire is an obstacle' whenever it arises. If it arises now, then now is the time and opportunity to be aware and understand it. When you are absorbed in your book or your chores, there is no opportunity for you to be aware of the present. >If we wait for another 'setting', when there is no sensual desire, it will never be known, the >path will never be followed. I cannot take this seriously. You regularly fly to Bangkok. What can happen in Bangkok that cannot happen at home while doing your chores and your reading? I have no problems with whatever you do, BTW, but I just do not share your conviction that your approach merits a "true Dhamma" seal of approval. :-) Cheers Herman #88704 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just studying... sarahprocter... Hi Mike & (Phil, Alex, Herman, Tep & all), --- On Sun, 3/8/08, m_nease wrote: >The address you posted for Mettanet's Alagagaddupama- sutta .... http://mettanet. org/tipitaka/ 2Sutta-Pitaka/ 2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1 /022-alagagaddup ama-sutta- e1.html Thanks for posting this.... .... S:Thanks for the correct link. As it happens, I've quoted part of the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation of the snake simile before (along with notes on the raft simile) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24878 "Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma- discourses, stnzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories, marvels, and answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma, they do not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom, they do not gain a reflective aceptance of them. Instead they learn the Dhamma only for the sake of criticising others and for winning in debates, and they do not experience the good for the sake of which they learned the Dhamma. Those teachings, being wrongly grasped by them, conduce to their harm and sufering for a long time." Note253: "MA [the commentary] explains that this passage is stated in order to show the fault in wrongly motivated acquisition of intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma - apparently the pitfall into which Arittha fell. The 'good (attha) for the sake of which they learned the Dhamma' is the paths and fruits." ***** S: Phil and others have been surprised at your comment about reading suttas with wrong view being 'far more dangerous than not reading them at all'. I think this (the surprise) is because we're used to considering useful study, refuge in the Dhamma, the Buddha's teaching or pariyatti in terms of the words or the texts rather than in terms of the wholesome qualities and development of right understanding in particular at the present moment, regardless of the activity, even if it be reading suttas. This reminds me of Nina's summary from the subcommentary to the Sangitii sutta with regard to noble friendship and association with the good friend as referring to the: "association with wholesome qualities of confidence in kusala, sati, pa~n~naa, callmright energy. The lokuttara kusala citta is endowed with all good qualities in the highest degree. Here good friendship has been explained by way of paramattha dhammas. One should not follow a person but 'associate with' the wholesome qualities accompanying kusala citta." S: In the end it always comes back to the right understanding and other wholesome states no matter what company we are in or what we are studying now. Finally, here is the longer quote (which includes the above) from the translation of the Atthasalinii (PTS, Expositor) which Connie and I have quoted before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/87235 C: >Expositor [23-24]: "Herein three kinds of study of the three Pi.takas should be considered: studyafter the manner of one catching a snake, study for the purpose of salvation, and study as of a treasurer. Of these, that study which is badly acquired out ofa desire to be vexatious to others, etc., is like catching a snake. Concering which it is said: 'Just as, bhikkhus, a person desirous of catching a snake goes out in search of one. He sees a big snake and catches it either by the body or the tail. And the snake turning back bites him on the hand, the arm, or any other part of the body big or small. On that account he dies or suffers pain approaching death. And why? Because, bhikkhus, of his bad catching of the snake. "In the same way, bhikkhus, in the religion some good-for-nothing persons improperly study the doctrine in its various branches. Having studied the doctrine they do not intelligently consider the meaning of the text. And the meaning not being considered with understanding, those acquired doctrines do not lend themselves to close insight. These people study the doctrine for the purpose of annoying others or of freeing themselves from the criticism or scoffing of others. [*Or, 'to free oneself from the oppression of others'.] For whatever Good right-minded people study the doctrine, that Good these good-for-nothing people do not experience; and the doctrines being badly acquired are conducive to their disadvantage and misery for a long time. "Wherefore? Because, bhikkhus, of their being badly acquired.' [MN i 133f] But that study, which is well acquired by one desirous of fulfilling a body of precepts, etc., and not for the sake of annoying others, is for the sake of salvation, concerning which it is said: 'The doctrines being well acquired conduce to the advantage and happiness for a long time. Wherefore? Because, bhikkhus, of their being well acquired. [MN i 134] Finally, the saint, who has acquired a complete knowledge of the aggregates, got rid of the corruptions, developed the Path, penetrated the Fruition of Arahantship, realized the Truth of Cessation, and extinguished the intoxicants, studies merely for the purpose of preserving the tradition, and of guarding the lineage of the doctrine. This is the study of the treasurer. The bhikkhu, who is well practised in the Vinaya, arrives, by fulfilling the precepts, at the three kinds of knowledge, which are fully treated of therein. The bhikkhu, who is well versed in the Suttas, arrives, by his attainment of concentration, at the six branches of super-knowledge, which are fully treated of therein. The bhikkhu, who is well cultivated in the Abhidhamma, arrives, by his attainment of understanding, at the four analyses, which are fully treated of therein. Thus the bhikkhu, who is well trained in the three Pi.takas, in due course arrives at the attainment of the three kinds of knowledge, the six branches of super-knowledge, and the four analyses. "But the bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Vinaya, imagines that there is no fault in the forbidden sensations of touch, because the touch of these is similar to that of blankets and cloaks, etc., which are pleasurable and are permitted by the Buddha. And it has been said: [MN i 130] 'I know the doctrine taught by the Blessed One, namely, that certain things are inimical (to progress), but that they are incapable of doing any harm to one who uses them in certain ways.' Consequently the bhikkhu arrives at evil practices. The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Sutta, gets a wrong idea, not knowing the meaning of such passages as, 'There are, bhikkhus, four persons in the world,' [D iii 232; M i 341; A ii 205] concerning which it has been said, 'Owing to his wrong ideas, [*Or, 'owing to his wrong nature or conduct'] he accuses us, harms himself and produces much demerit.' Consequently he arrives at wrong views. "The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma, makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. For it has been said, 'Bhikkhus, there are four unthinkables, things that should not be thought of. Madness or vexation will be the portion of him who does so.' [A ii 80] Thus the bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the three Pi.takas in due course arrives at failure of different sorts, such as evil principles, wrong views, mental derangement. So far the import of the verse --- 'what each attains / In these three studies, how he may succeed, / Wherein he fails, let this too be explained' --- has been explained. "Thus the three Pi.takas by the knowledge of the scriptures in various ways are to be known as the Buddha's word. < ***** Metta, Sarah ======== #88705 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 12:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accepting Bhaavanaa Means Accepting Development Of Samatha And Vipassana sarahprocter... Dear Connie. Thanks for the good quote you provided in #88451 from Milinda Qus. Could you check the Paali given for 'meditation' in" --- On Mon, 28/7/08, connie wrote: >"The king once asked about the characteristic mark[s] of faith, perseverance, mindfulness and meditation. ........ "Then, meditation's characteristic mark: 'Being the leader, O king. All good qualities have meditation as their chief, they incline to it, lead up towards it, are as so many slopes up the side of the mountain of meditation.'" Thanks in advance, Metta, Sarah p.s a reference too would be nice. ======= #88706 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 1:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? .. You May Disagree Again ... sarahprocter... Hi Alex, (Tep & all) --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Alex wrote: > S: OK, if 7 years is the longest time, why are we not all arahats? >> A: >Incorrect practice maybe? Lack of effort Atapi?? >Not overcoming "Vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam. " ? .... S: Yes, lack or right understanding in other words. ..... A:> Guess what, if hindrances aren't overcome, doing satipatthana even for 7 billion aeons won't work. The hindrances prevent one to see things as they are, the twist and pervert the results. .... S: I'd put round the other way and say that without the development of satipatthana, the hindrances will never be overcome, eradicated for good. It is the lack of right understanding and ignorance which prevent the seeing of things as they are. It is the pa~n~naa of the vipassanaa- ~naanas which sees things as they are exactly, precisely, in order for defilements to be gradually worn away and eradicated once and for all. Metta, Sarah ========== #88707 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 1:17 am Subject: Re: Each presently arisen state sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Howard), Hope you see this when you leave the lakes and have internet access again. (Btw, wishing you and your family a lovely Canadian summer meantime!). I just wished to say (belatedly), that I was very glad to read the following: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > Yes, you're right, there is in fact no "seeing a tree." However, > hard for me now to fathom any form of awareness that is closer to the > truth than seeing a tree -- i.e hard to fathom awareness of visible > object as visible object...but not to worry about that! It is the > deep truth, good to ponder on it without expectations of awareness of > it, in my opinion. So actually not "hard", just beyond me, and that's > fine... .... S: And this is definitely the way....the appreciation that it is only visible object that's seen and that it is the deep truth. Also, as you suggest, it's useless to have expectations about the development of awareness. Yes, as we all repeat, you're praising the Buddha's wisdom when you stress the difficulty. Awareness too is anatta and beyond control, but as the right 'theory' grows (as here), so does awareness, little by little. Metta, Sarah ======== #88708 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 1:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Hindrances sarahprocter... Hi Herman (Howard, Alex, Tep & all), Thanks for your reply and the good Udana you quote. --- On Tue, 5/8/08, Herman Hofman wrote: >>S: "And how, Elder, is dwelling alone fulfilled in detail? Here, Elder, what > lies in the past has been abandoned, what lies in the future has been > relinquished, and desire and lust for present forms of individual > existence has been thoroughly removed.* It is in such a way, Elder, that > dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail." > > This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, > the Teacher, further said this: > > "The wise one, all-conqueror, all-knower, > Among all things unsullied, with all cast off, > Liberated in the destruction of craving: > I call that person �one who dwells alone. "** > ..... **** H:> I was reminded of this sutta, which puts quite a different spin on exactly the same scenario. Ud2:10 "............But, Bhaddiya, what do you see that prompts you to do so?" "Formerly, revered sir, when I was a householder and enjoyed the bliss of royalty, inside and outside my inner apartments guards were appointed; inside and outside the city guards were appointed; inside and outside the district guards were appointed. But, revered sir, although I was thus guarded and protected, I lived fearful, agitated, distrustful, and afraid. But now, revered sir, on going alone into the forest, to the foot of a tree or to an empty place, I am fearless, unagitated, confident, and unafraid. I live unconcerned, unruffled, my needs satisfied, with a mind become like a deer's. Seeing this, revered sir, prompts me, on going to the forest... to utter constantly, 'Ah, what bliss! Ah, what bliss!'" Then, on realizing its significance, the Lord uttered on that occasion this inspired utterance: In whom exist no inner stirrings, Having passed beyond being this or that, Free from fear, blissful and sorrowless, The devas are not capable of seeing him."< ...... S: Look at the verses [the conclusions] again. Is the message so very different? Here's the Thera sutta one: > "The wise one, all-conqueror, all-knower, > Among all things unsullied, with all cast off, > Liberated in the destruction of craving: > I call that person 'one who dwells alone'. " S: In other words, no matter the situation (with people or in the forest), the lone-dweller is the one with 'no inner stirrings', the 'liberated in the destruction of craving'. Consider another Udana and another bhikkhu, in this case Meghiya, the Buddha's attendant. We have another mangro grove but very differenct accumulations from Bhaddiya's. In Meghiya's case, he was overwhelmed by unwholesome thoughts when he went in search of serenity and solitude. As I summarised before: >(Ud4, Meghiya,1) >S: In brief, Meghiya is the Buddha's attendant at the time. He sees a mango grove which inspires 'serenity' and which he considers suitable for making an effort on the Path. The Buddha gives some brief comments which Meghiya doesn't appreciate and after asking permission to go to the grove for the third time 'for the purposes of effort', the Buddha just suggests he should do what it seems to be the time to do. To Meghiya's great surprise, even though he has become a bhikkhu in good faith and gone to the secluded grove to make an effort, he is overwhelmed by thoughts concerned with sense-desires, ill-will and cruelty. He returns to the Buddha who says: "When liberation of heart is not fully mature , Meghiya, five things conduce to full maturity." He then proceeds to elaborate on these five conditions conducive to the development of wisdom. ***** These five in brief are: 1. The good friend 2. Morality. "..............seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom....." 3. Talk concerned with the Dhamma and development of wholesome states 4. the 4 Right Efforts 5. Insight leading to the destruction of dukkha. The full sutta, (I've just checked) can be found here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.4.01.irel.html The sutta Herman quoted is: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.2.10.irel.html Metta, Sarah ========= #88709 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 1:53 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 3, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, The “brahmavihåras” (divine abidings) of loving kindness (mettå), compassion (karuna), sympathetic joy (muditå) and equanimity (upekkhå) are subjects of samatha, but they cannot be developed without right understanding of the characteristics of these virtues. One may recite the “Karaníya Mettå Sutta” in the morning, but, if one does not develop mettå when one is in the company of other people, can one know the characteristic of mettå? If one does not know the characteristic of mettå how can one then develop it as a subject of samatha? When we are in the company of other people we should develop mettå and we should find out when there is attachment which is akusala and when there is mettå which is kusala. The difference between attachment and metta should be known very precisely. One may wonder whether it is possible to develop mettå towards one’s relatives. Is there not bound to be attachment to them? We can develop mettå towards them if we do not see them as members of “our family” who belong to us, but as human beings whom we would like to treat with kindness and thoughtfulness. When there is true loving kindness, true compassion or the other brahmavihåras, calm can be developed with these subjects and then calm can increase. That is bhåvanå. Another meditation subject is “Parts of the Body”: “Hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin...” Are there no parts of the body appearing during the day? Instead of attachment or aversion we can have moments of calm if there is right understanding of this subject. We are attached to the body and we think that it is beautiful, but when we consider the “Parts of the Body”, we may see that there is no beauty, that there are only elements. When we wash our hair or cut our nails, there can be moments of calm while considering “Parts of the Body”. We may have thought that calm can be developed only when one leads a secluded life. We read in the scriptures that many monks in the Buddha’s time lived in the forest. This does not mean that everybody has to go to the forest or to a secluded place which is quiet in order to develop calm. Monks who lived in the forest did so because it was natural for them, it was their inclination. They developed samatha to a high degree and they could attain jhåna because they had conditions for such a high degree of calm. Before the Buddha’s enlightenment samatha was the highest form of kusala. Today there are not many people who can attain jhåna; it is not known whether there is anybody who can. However, even if one cannot attain jhåna, it is valuable to have calm instead of akusala citta. It is beneficial to consider the meditation subjects of samatha. Some of them can condition moments of calm in daily life. However, there is no rule that everybody has to develop calm. It all depends on the individual whether he has conditions for the development of calm or not. Right understanding is necessary in samatha. The right understanding in samatha knows the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta very precisely and it knows the right cnditions for calm. Samatha is a way to be temporarily freed from lobha, dosa and moha. However, the right understanding in samatha does not know realities as impermanent, dukkha (suffering) and anattå (non-self), and it does not eradicate defilements. Thus, the right understanding in samatha is different from the right understanding which is developed in vipassanå. Only the wisdom which is developed in vipassanå can eradicate the wrong view of self and the other defilements. ******* Nina. #88710 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stream enterer endowed with N8P (which includes Jhana) sarahprocter... Hi Tep (Alex & all), --- On Sat, 2/8/08, Tep wrote: >T: Now I see where the two strange-looking jhanas (in your previous message) came from : Aaramma.nupanijjhaa na is 'object-scrutinisin g' jhaana, and lakkha.nupanij jhaana is 'characteristics- examining' jhaana. So I think Alex has been right all along to strongly repeat, over and over again, the importance of jhaana. Alex has been right, since according to Atthasalini, the insight's work is "accomplished through the Path" and even fruition is also a 'characteristic- examining jhaana'; thus it straightforwardly follows that jhaana is fundamental to pa~n~na development. No nibbana without jhaana! .... S: No nibbana without jhana because at the moments when lokuttara cittas arise (and experience nibbana), the absorption of the object (on account of it being nibbana) is equivalent to apanna samadhi (absorption concentration of first jhana at least). If mundane jhana has arisen immediately prior to the process of enlightenment, then the absorption is of the degree of that jhana. Alex is not correct when he inists over and over again that mundane jhanas are essential pre-requisites for the process of enlightenment however. The texts make it very clear that in the case of the sukkha-vipassikas (dry insight-workers) there is no prior jhana. [Lots and lots on all of this in U.P. under 'Jhana - two kinds', 'Sukkha-vipassika', 'Jhana -meanings' etc.] ........ T:> So why are you always opposing him whenever he talks about jhaana? .... S: Because I think he misses the essence of the Buddha's message but is open-minded enough to consider what we say here (sometimes:-)). Tep, I appreciate that you at least have a keen interest in the Abhidhamma and Patisambhidamagga. I do hope you'll continue with your helpful quotes and consideration of these texts. Perhaps the Abh. series will resume sometime? Thank you for all your helpful quotes from the Psm in the meantime. Metta, Sarah ========= #88711 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Hindrances sarahprocter... Hi Herman & all, I meant to add this verse from the end of the Udana: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: >H: > Ud2:10.... > In whom exist no inner stirrings, > Having passed beyond being this or that, > Free from fear, blissful and sorrowless, > The devas are not capable of seeing him."< > ...... > S: Look at the verses [the conclusions] again. Is the message so very different? Here's the Thera sutta one: > > > "The wise one, all-conqueror, all-knower, > > Among all things unsullied, with all cast off, > > Liberated in the destruction of craving: > > I call that person 'one who dwells alone'. " <...> >S:(Ud4, Meghiya,1) Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: Little thoughts, subtle thoughts, when followed, stir up the heart. Not comprehending the thoughts of the heart, one runs here & there, the mind out of control. But comprehending the thoughts of the heart, one who is ardent, mindful, restrains them. When, followed, they stir up the heart, one who is awakened lets them go without trace. Udana IV.1; Meghiya Sutta **** S: Truths about this moment, no matter our different tendencies, no matter the situation we find ourselves in..... Metta, Sarah ==== #88712 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta jonoabb Hi Howard > No, it is the Bhikkhuni Sutta, found at > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/ an04.159.than.html) Thanks for the reference and link. The passage you have in mind I think is this: "This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned. "This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned. "This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge. Referring to this passage you say: > But we DO begin mired in sense of self. That's the way it goes! Without > bootstrapping, there will be no treading the path. In that regard, please > read AN 4.159. As I said in a previous post, there is no dispute as to the fact that the development of the path is available to those (like us) with much accumulated akusala of all kinds. The question we've been discussing, however, is whether, according to the Buddha's teaching, the undertaking of a deliberate practice that is bound to be motivated by wrong view can lead to the development of the path during the course of that practice (what you call "bootstrapping"). What the sutta passage above says, as I see it, is the following: (a) the intention to develop the path can be motivated by craving or conceit; (b) in this regard craving and conceit are different from sexual desire, which has no propensity to motivate the development of the path. I don't think the passage can be taken as showing that the development of the path includes the doing of actions that are accompanied wrong view. Jon #88713 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Avarana Sutta jonoabb Hi Howard > As for the Avarana Sutta, if the abandoning of the hindrances, which is > what occurs during jhana and is also supported by the four right efforts, > were not something that one can contribute to by intentional actions, I would > see no point in the Buddha having taught this. You say here that *if the abandoning of the hindrances could not be progressed by intentional actions of the conventional kind, it would not have been taught by the Buddha*. This is really just a reiteration of you view, rather than anything said or supported by the sutta passage you have quoted. What the passage actually says is that when the following 2 situations prevail, namely: - a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles [the five hindrances] ..., and - s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit [or] for the benefit of others, ... then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision, is an impossibility The question of whether or not the abandonment of the five hindrances is to be achieved by intentional actions of the conventional kind is not addressed in that passage. As I have mentioned already, kusala can and does arise in a day without any intentional action on our part, and such moments of arising can be the basis for its further development. > We do have sense of self more > than not, and it occurs throughout the performance of all the various > activities the Buddha urged to train the mind. Let's take the specific mental factor of wrong view (I suggest that, since we are discussing (your) sutta quotes here, we should stick to terms that are found in the texts as far as is possible). Are you saying wrong view is present more often than not, and that "practice" undertaken with wrong view can lead to the development of insight? The latter seems almost self-contradictory. Jon > /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains â€" going far, > its current swift, carrying everything with it â€" and a man would open channels > leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the > river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its > current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same > way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that > overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, > sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is > without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own > benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what > is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly > noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ > > (From the Avarana Sutta) #88714 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:13 am Subject: Re: Just studying & Sariputta jonoabb Hi Alex > A priest may say: "Hear and reflect on the Bible, the true teaching!" Yes, but for a start the admonition to "hear and reflect" is not what I was talking about. The factor of "hearing the true dhamma", as one of the 4 factors given by the Buddha, is something that *happens* as a result of past kamma. It's not something that a person *does* by choice in compliance with an instruction/suggestion. Similarly, the reflecting is reflexive, not a deliberate act. In any event, there is certainly a difference between hearing and reflecting on the Bible, and hearing and reflecting on the true Dhamma. A person could not, by hearing an explanation of the teachings in the Bible, come to an intellectual understanding of dhammas and the way things truly are; only the hearing of the true dhamma can make that possible, and without that hearing such understanding could not occur. And that intellectual understanding is requisite for direct experience to occur. > > Hearing the true dhamma is given as one of the 4 factors necessary > > for the develoment of insight and the attainment of enlightenment. > > True but there are other things involved. Yes, as I said, it's one of 4 factors. And each of the 4 factors is indispensible. > > When Sariputta became enlightened as a stream enterer, was the path > > consciousness based on jhana (according to the suttas)? > > The opening of Dhamma eye could definately be based on Jhana. But > this doesn't mean that prior groundsetting (removal of hindrances) > isn't needed. From reading your comments, I take it that the short answer to the question I put to you is that there's *no indication* in the sutta that Sariputta's enlightenment as a sotapanna was based on jhana. You're really only speculating that there could be. > The "mundane" jhana is very helpful at *suppressing* these > defilements so that eye of wisdom could work. I think you're saying here that defilements need to be suppressed (by samatha/jhana) in order for insight to be developed. Do you have any sutta quotes to that effect? > Those whose coarse & > middling defilements are weak, need less (if any) mundane Jhana for > stream entry. Those who have more obscurations, need more cleaning. Now I'm confused. I thought you took the position that jhana was not necessary for sotapanna stage of enlightenment (only for anagami stage). But in any event, what is the sutta basis for your statement that: "Those whose coarse and middling defilements are weak, need less (if any) mundane Jhana for stream entry. Those who have more obscurations, need more cleaning."? > Of course I believe than neither precepts, nor jhana by themselves > can cause insight to arise. What they CAN do is to provide the > required clarity of cognition so that eye-of-wisdom (instructed by > the Buddha) could see. Again, any sutta quotes to support the statement that "jhana provides the required clarity of cognition so that eye-of-wisdom can see"? How can jhana provide any "clarity of cognition" if the necessary insight has not already been developed? > The truth is happening constantly. It is just > clouded by defilements. Precepts & Jhana drive the clouds away. The > more clouds, the stronger Precepts & Jhana are required. When one > knows what to look for (read the suttas) & manages to drive out the > clouds - then enlightment can occur. Any sutta quote for the proposition that "The truth is happening constantly. It is just clouded by defilements. Precepts & Jhana drive the clouds away."? Jon #88715 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:14 am Subject: Re: kayagatasati .. Relentless Training ... jonoabb Hi Tep > I hope this discussion is fruitful. If it is, then it will be one > more of the few occasions that ever happened to me here. And I certainly hope the same. > T: Right view is an insight. The conditions that support right view > are : understanding of the dhammas (see the list below), their > origin, their cessation, and the way (path: patipada, magga) leading > to their cessation. Please consider whether what you give here as the "conditions that support right view" might instead be the realisation of developed insight, rather than supporting conditions. > T: If the practitioner's goal is "7 days to 7 years" as stated in > Mahasatipatthana Sutta, which is a lot faster than "slowly > accumulating panna" for aeons, then s/he has to be smart enough to > support his/her practice with right nutriments with a sense of > urgency so that they give "faster growth" ! The "sense of urgency" (samvega) spoken of in the texts has nothing to do with the urgency arising from wanting to meet a target date/ time-frame for the attainment of enlightenment ;-)) > It is indeed the sense of urgency and relentless training that > condition faster growth. A true sense of urgency is a kind of kusala in itself. > "Thus you should train yourselves: > ' We will relentlessly exert ourselves, [thinking,] > "Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving > just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can > be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, > there will be no relaxing our persistence." ' > That's how you should train yourselves." > [AN 2.5: Appativana Sutta. Relentlessly] Regarding the passage above, the question still remains as to the nature of the "exerting". Does it mean the arising of right effort that accompanies kusala, or does it mean something *done* in order to induce the arising of kusala? As I have pointed out before, the sequence involved in the latter interpretation, in the case of the effort to bring about the arising of presently unarisen kusala, would seem to be: (a) akusala now (b) deliberate effort made (c) kusala ensuing. In that scenario, is the deliberate action that is the effort made at (b) seen as being kusala or akusala (or neither)? Jon #88716 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:16 am Subject: Re: [was Kayagatasati] Knowledge of Suffering = Right View jonoabb Hi Tep > Ptsm, I, 568. Knowledge in one who possesses the path is knowledge > of suffering and it is knowledge of the origin of suffering and it is > knowledge of the cessation of suffering and it is knowledge of the > way leading to the cessation of sufferring. I think that the words "in one who possesses the path" must refer to a sekha and/or an asekha, rather than to a worldling. The knowledge of the worldling who is developing the path would not be described in these terms, I think. If that is so, then what follows must be read in that light. > T: In summary: Knowledge is understanding(panna) of dhammas, e.g. the > Four Noble Truths. Knowledge of dukkha is the same as vipassana, full > awareness, and right view that arise contingent upon dukkha (I think > this means 'with dukkha as the mind-object'). There are many levels of understanding of dhammas. The beginning level is awareness of nama as nama, rupa as rupa. Actual knowledge of the Four Noble Truths (i.e., direct knowledge) comes much later, as I understand it. Jon #88717 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati .. Relentless Training ... jonoabb Hi Howard (and Tep) > "Thus you should train yourselves: > ' We will relentlessly exert ourselves, [thinking,] > "Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving > just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can > be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, > there will be no relaxing our persistence." ' > That's how you should train yourselves." > [AN 2.5: Appativana Sutta. Relentlessly] > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Jon, what is unclear about that? There is nothing unclear. The Buddha is saying that the development of all forms of kusala, and especially of awareness and insight, is to be the subject of *relentless exertion* (relentless effort). That relentless exertion involves determination of the kind spelt out in the passage. As regards the question of whether the effort is conventional effort or is a mental factor that accompanies the kusala in question, this is not mentioned in the passage. We need to look elsewhere (in the same sutta or other suttas) for an understanding of this. > Is this not conventional striving of > the strongest sort that is called for here by the Buddha? As to whether it's *conventional* striving that's being spoken of, I'd say it's the same striving as is described elsewhere in the suttas. There are no words in the passage that necessarily imply a conventional striving. > Does it make sense to > scour the commentaries to find some exotic reformulation that contorts this > into something entirely different? The interpretation offered by the commentaries may seem "exotic" at first, but in my experience it is never inconsistent with the suttas. Some interpretation is obviously needed, because the term "exertion", in and of itself, is capable, in the context, of more than one meaning. Jon #88718 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:30 am Subject: Re: Relentless Training: No Retreat, No Surrender! No pain, no gain! jonoabb Hi Alex (and Tep) > If one doesn't enage in N8P as much as possible, then there will > never be accumulations! I think we can take it that there *are* accumulations of insight already. For each of us, there must have been the hearing and understanding of the teachings in former lifetimes, otherwise there would be neither the opportunity to hear nor the interest in this lifetime. What is needed is for those accumulated tendencies to be further built on (i.e., developed). > As I understand suttas such as anusota, > is that for the worldlings either good or bad qualities accumulate. > If one doesn't "strive" for kusala states, akusala states rush in and > accumulate. There will be many more moments of akusala states accumulating than kusala states (although the intensity of the akusala will not necessarily be sufficient to condition an unhappy rebirth). However, the relative strength of panna as against all forms of akusala means that, for those fortunate enough to correctly understand the teachings, progress can be made along the path leading to the eventual eradication of the akusala latent tendencies regardless of the strength of the accumulated unwholesome tendencies. > Of course the action of engaging and training (sekha) is anatta. The dhammas in question are anatta. But the point is whether action accompanied by self-view can lead to the development of insight. > Simply "understanding" swimming will NOT help one to actually swim > when the ship is sinking. Simply "understanding" will not remove the > subtle atta view when something happens. I'm not sure what you're saying in this last sentence. It is understanding (insight, panna) of the appropriate level that is the development of the path leading to the eradication of atta-view. If that understanding arises, the path is being developed, atta-view is being reduced, and nothing further is required. > "This [Arahatship], for him, is victory in the battle. This > ... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.075.than.html > > There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual > ... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html > > then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, > ... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/ an10.051.than.html#turban > > When a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones is touched by a > ... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.004.than.html > > If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or > ... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html > > Can people who read the above "effort" quotes really think that > Buddhist path is all and only about passive relaxation and "letting > it just be without letting any interference, which can come only from > an ego, in"? Passive relaxation?? Letting it be without any interference?? No- one has mentioned anything like that ;-)) I'd like to comment on your sutta quotes, but 5 at a time is a bit much for me ;-)) Please select the quote you think best illustrates your point about "effort", and I'll start with that one. Jon #88719 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:32 am Subject: Of Mice and Men (Re: [dsg] A question on contiguity) jonoabb Hi Herman > There is a difference between me not having made my case, and you not > understanding the implications of your own argument :-) ;-)) . > You suggest that it is a present consciousness that takes a previous > consciousness as object. But you also acknowledge that this present > consciousness cannot be known. So why have this belief in a present > consciousness, other than because your pet theory needs it? I'm afraid you've lost me here. I thought we were discussing how, according to the teachings, a moment of consciousness could become the object of insight. If that's not what you were asking, then we've been talking at cross-purposes. It is not a matter of my own "belief in a present consciousness". As always, I was simply putting forward my (intellectual) understanding of the Buddha's teachings, without claiming (or rejecting) it as my own. Please let me know if this distinction is not clear. Jon #88720 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Each presently arisen state jonoabb Hi Herman > I made a mistake. I used the word dhamma, ... What I would like to do is retract > my usage of that word, and replace it with "thing", which was what I > was intending when I said what I said. ... OK, no problem. > I realise now that I may have confused you again, because while > proposing to replace "dhamma" with "thing", I then proceeded to, > without any warning, refer to a thing as being an event or object. > Perhaps it would be best if we could meet somewhere, and then, by > pointing and making various other gesticulations and sounds, I could > make clear to you what I mean by objects and events. For in this I > have unshakeable faith, that all humans learn the meanings of words > through the grunting and gesticulation of others. Yes, the internet is not an ideal medium (although it's not such a bad one, either – see my comments below). Do let me know any time you'd like to exchange some gesticulations and sounds ;-)) > I doubt very much, > if our past discussions are any indication, and as long as we are > limited to using this internet medium, where grunting and > gesticulating can play no role, that we will get beyond semantics and > actually start referring to the reality of patterns. I share to some extent your doubts about the likely outcome of our exchanges. But for me it's not just about the outcome. I always find the exchanges I'm involved in to be instructive, no matter how far apart the 2 positions. > If you are reading this post, let each letter, each word, each > sentence be an example of a pattern to you. OK. Understood (at least, I think so). Thanks for explaining at length. > I am not interested in going through old post, or doing a survey, to > give you hard evidence that generally the non-Sujinites give up on > discussing with you. No, and I wouldn't recommend it, either ;-)) It's safe to assume that I've outlasted numerous combatants over the years ;-)) > I doubt that such hard evidence will make any > difference, and I can think of many more interesting things to do :-) Not to mention the lack of relevance to the point under discussion ;-)) Jon #88721 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, Logic, Anatta jonoabb Hi Herman > An interesting point of view. Two things spring to mind on seeing the > patterns above. I take it that a person, in your opinion, has specific > accumulated tendencies all the time, but the momentary views that a > person has may be counter to those persistent accumulated tendencies. Accumulated tendencies, good and bad, are latent, except for those actually arising/manifesting at the present moment. At some moments the arising/manifesting tendencies will be kusala, at others akusala. > Which leads me to the second thing. How is it known that there is a > moment of correct intellectual understanding? If you're asking about the *mechanism*, then it's the same as for any other instance of consciousness being known (i.e., as we've been discussing in another thread). If you're asking about the *perception*, then it's a matter of the characteristic of the moment of intellectual understanding. This could be, for example, as a moment of kusala, or as a level of panna. The characteristic of panna is that it sees clearly the characteristic of another dhamma, in the manner spoken of by the Buddha. > > Which parts of the three baskets in particular do you have in mind > > here, in relation to jhana and the "thinner, leaner self"? > > Well, I did quote you that little list of various lokas, and the three > vithis with a final nirodha samapatti. If you believe that they are > all equally accessible by selves of any girth, then I will await your > evidence for that. I would say that dhammas are "accessible" to right understanding, not otherwise. At moments of right understanding (a kusala tendency) manifesting, there is no wrong view of self (an akusala tendency) manifesting. > I disagree. An intellectual understanding is had by a fat self only. > And it bloats just a little more when s/he understands "I am having a > moment of intellectual right understanding". :-) Kusala of any level may be, and no doubt often is, followed by akusala. But that does not undo or negative the kusala, just as kusala does not undo or negative previously performed akusala (speaking in general terms here). Jon #88722 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, Logic, Anatta jonoabb Hi Herman > Well, if we are clear about sabbe, then it would seem to me to be an > act of insanity to go and create a taxonomy of sankhara and dhamma. "Sabbe" is a qualifier. It is meaningless on its own, without reference to whatever is being qualified (precise enough, but meaningless ;-)). > I find it interesting and noteworthy that you agree with those who > think that sabbe needs to be itemised. It was your quote not mine! I'm simply pointing out the context in which "sabbe" appears in the passage you quoted. Jon #88723 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a question? jonoabb Hi Herman > If not generalised from specific examples, what then is the basis for > your unshakable interpretation of the Dhamma? If by "the Dhamma" you mean doctrinal statements or the teaching on the development of insight, there are plenty of texts, in the suttas and vinaya in particular, dealing with these. As to whether a specific example or description could be the basis for inferring a doctrinal point, I suppose it's possible; but one would expect to find the same point expressed more directly elsewhere (just an opinion, of course). As for "my" interpretation (and it's "unshakeableness"), it is what I understand the orthodox, commentarial interpretation to be. I do not claim it as my own. And when I stray from that orthodox, commentarial interpretation, I'm only too happy to have it pointed out ;-)). Problem is, every Tom, Dick and H has his own pet interpretation, and is not interested in what the commentaries say (except of course when it suits him ;-)) Jon #88724 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Each presently arisen state upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Phil) - In a message dated 8/5/2008 4:18:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Phil (& Howard), Hope you see this when you leave the lakes and have internet access again. (Btw, wishing you and your family a lovely Canadian summer meantime!). I just wished to say (belatedly), that I was very glad to read the following: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > Yes, you're right, there is in fact no "seeing a tree." However, > hard for me now to fathom any form of awareness that is closer to the > truth than seeing a tree -- i.e hard to fathom awareness of visible > object as visible object...but not to worry about that! It is the > deep truth, good to ponder on it without expectations of awareness of > it, in my opinion. So actually not "hard", just beyond me, and that's > fine... .... S: And this is definitely the way....the appreciation that it is only visible object that's seen and that it is the deep truth. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: It's a tiny piece of the truth. Radically more fundamental as regards being "the way" is coming to truly and directly know that whatever arises ceases, is not a source of genuine satisfaction - even conditioning distress if attached to, and is impersonal and without self-existence throughout its brief and fragile presence. Through this wisdom, by walking through this door, nibbana is reached. ------------------------------------------------------ Also, as you suggest, it's useless to have expectations about the development of awareness. Yes, as we all repeat, you're praising the Buddha's wisdom when you stress the difficulty. Awareness too is anatta and beyond control, but as the right 'theory' grows (as here), so does awareness, little by little. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: To the extent that encountering the Dhamma (and contemplating it) conditions the growth of wisdom, that studying and considering constitutes "control." All that control is is a body of intentional actions, a.k.a. kamma, that, together, condition intended consequences. Of course, kamma alone is far from all-determining. ------------------------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ============================== With metta, Howard /Seekers, when ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen in an aspirant, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge she or he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no longer clings to a doctrine of self. When that one does not cling, he or she is not agitated. When not agitated, that one attains Nibbana and understands: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being'/ (From the Cula-Sihanada Sutta) #88725 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 1:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/5/2008 7:09:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: What the sutta passage above says, as I see it, is the following: (a) the intention to develop the path can be motivated by craving or conceit; (b) in this regard craving and conceit are different from sexual desire, which has no propensity to motivate the development of the path. I don't think the passage can be taken as showing that the development of the path includes the doing of actions that are accompanied wrong view. =============================== Craving for awakening and release is based in sense of self. As you say, "motivated by craving or conceit." The prisoner's craving for escape is self-oriented. Prince Gotama's desire also was. So is ours. We start where we are, not where we hope to be. With metta, Howard #88726 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 1:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Avarana Sutta upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/5/2008 7:11:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard > As for the Avarana Sutta, if the abandoning of the hindrances, which is > what occurs during jhana and is also supported by the four right efforts, > were not something that one can contribute to by intentional actions, I would > see no point in the Buddha having taught this. You say here that *if the abandoning of the hindrances could not be progressed by intentional actions of the conventional kind, it would not have been taught by the Buddha*. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Huh? I'm confused, Jon. where did I say this? What is this "here" you refer to? Is this an attempt at a paraphrase? If so, I prefer the original. ----------------------------------------------- This is really just a reiteration of you view, rather than anything said or supported by the sutta passage you have quoted. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: What I said was exactly a statement about my view. I didn't say, as you wrote, "it would not have been taught by the Buddha." I said "I would see no point in the Buddha having taught this." There is a big difference, Jon, and I think it would have been preferable had you let my own words stand. --------------------------------------------------- What the passage actually says is that when the following 2 situations prevail, namely: - a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles [the five hindrances] ..., and - s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit [or] for the benefit of others, ... then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision, is an impossibility The question of whether or not the abandonment of the five hindrances is to be achieved by intentional actions of the conventional kind is not addressed in that passage. As I have mentioned already, kusala can and does arise in a day without any intentional action on our part, and such moments of arising can be the basis for its further development. > We do have sense of self more > than not, and it occurs throughout the performance of all the various > activities the Buddha urged to train the mind. Let's take the specific mental factor of wrong view (I suggest that, since we are discussing (your) sutta quotes here, we should stick to terms that are found in the texts as far as is possible). Are you saying wrong view is present more often than not, and that "practice" undertaken with wrong view can lead to the development of insight? The latter seems almost self-contradictory. Jon ==================================== With metta, Howard /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #88728 From: "Tep" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 6:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? .. Ahara for the Hindrances .... dhammanusarin Hi Sarah and Alex, - In most ordinary people the five hindrances arise much more often than mindfulness. Therefore, abandoning hindrances is of primary urgency. A:> Guess what, if hindrances aren't overcome, doing satipatthana even for 7 billion aeons won't work. The hindrances prevent one to see things as they are, the twist and pervert the results. .... Sarah: I'd put round the other way and say that without the development of satipatthana, the hindrances will never be overcome, eradicated for good. It is the lack of right understanding and ignorance which prevent the seeing of things as they are. It is the pa~n~naa of the vipassanaa- ~naanas which sees things as they are exactly, precisely, in order for defilements to be gradually worn away and eradicated once and for all. ................ T: When the hindrances are starved of their nutriments (ahara), then they will cease at least temporarily. But what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? The three kinds of akusala kamma (bodily, verbal, mental) or "misconducts" are the nutriment for the hindrances. "Before this, ignorance did not exist; then it came into play' — cannot be discerned. This has been said. Nevertheless, it can be discerned, 'Ignorance comes from this condition.' And I tell you, ignorance has its nutriment. It is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? The five hindrances... And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? The three forms of misconduct... And what is the nutriment for the three forms of misconduct? Lack of restraint of the senses.." [AN 10.61 Avijja Sutta] T: It takes mindfulness and alertness for the growth of 'restraint of the senses' (indriya-samvara) which in turn becomes a nutriment for the three good conducts. The three good conducts then become a nutriment for Satipatthana, according to the Buddha : "Now, I tell you, clear knowing & release have their nutriment. They are not without nutriment. And what is their nutriment? The seven factors for Awakening... And what is the nutriment for the seven factors for Awakening? The four frames of reference... And what is the nutriment for the four frames of reference? The three forms of right conduct... And what is the nutriment for the three forms of right conduct? Restraint of the senses... And what is the nutriment for restraint of the senses? Mindfulness & alertness... And what is the nutriment for mindfulness & alertness? Appropriate attention... And what is the nutriment for appropriate attention? Conviction... And what is the nutriment for conviction? Hearing the true Dhamma... And what is the nutriment for hearing the true Dhamma? Associating with people who are truly good... [ AN 10.61 Avijja Sutta taken from Wings to Awakening] T: So it is clear that there are two different kinds of mindfulness. Ordinary mindfulness-alertness (sati-sampajanna) is useful as a nutriment for restraint of the sense doors. Sati-sampajanna is enough as a nutriment for restraint of the sense doors; it is NOT Satipatthana. The established mindfulness (Satipatthana) is at a higher level of development. Development of Satipatthana requires both 'restraint of senses' and 'three forms of right conduct' as supporting conditions. People with the three forms of good conduct normally DO NOT have hindrances. Yet, they have to further develop Satipatthana. Tep === #88729 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 6:11 am Subject: Alex Was Wrong About Ekaggataa Re: Concentration with every citta truth_aerator Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > PS: I am glad you came to the right conclusion on the parinibbana > question. But you *were* inclined the other way just recently, > weren't you? I was right about that. Please tell me I haven't gone > completely senile! :-) How recently? Remember that viewpoints are impermanent. My understanding changes, especially when I analyze EXPERIENCE. I am after the Truth, not the Dogma. This truth though, must be applicable, seen for oneself: ie) pragmatic. The 4NT are the heart of Buddhism, it analyzes to the core the universal fact of experience, and it gives a solution. Best wishes, Alex #88730 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 6:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? .. You May Disagree Again ... truth_aerator Dear Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, (Tep & all) > > --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Alex wrote: > > S: OK, if 7 years is the longest time, why are we not all arahats? > >> > A: >Incorrect practice maybe? Lack of effort Atapi?? > > >Not overcoming "Vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam. " ? > .... > S: Yes, lack or right understanding in other words. > ..... How do you define this "right understanding"? How do the suttas define "right understanding" ? > A:> Guess what, if hindrances aren't overcome, doing satipatthana even > for 7 billion aeons won't work. The hindrances prevent one to see > things as they are, the twist and pervert the results. > .... > S: I'd put round the other way and say that without the development of satipatthana, the hindrances will never be overcome, eradicated for good. >>>> There is temporary suppresion of the hindrances and permanent. At first one temporary suppresses them, then when they are suppressed, insight can take a "peek" to eventually remove them for ever. I believe in this progression: Sila counteracts gross defilements. Step 1. Samadhi counteracts middling defilments. Step 2 Panna counteracts subtle defilements. Step 3, Game Over Mara! This is in the suttas. Before one can even notice subtle defilements, the gross and highly visible ones need to be dealt first. If you have dealt with gross & middling defilements, then GOOD FOR YOU! Unfortunately I am not there yet. >It is the lack of right understanding and ignorance which prevent >the seeing of things as they are. It is the pa~n~naa of the >vipassanaa- ~naanas which sees things as they are exactly, Samadhi. Check the Upanisa Sutta. Furthermore in MN25 and other suttas the Buddha has said that mara is (temporary) knocked out in Jhana. When the defilements are temporary knocked out, it is the best time to develop REAL insight. Best wishes, Alex #88731 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 6:56 am Subject: Re: Relentless Training: No Retreat, No Surrender! No pain, no gain! truth_aerator Hi Jon and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex (and Tep) > > What is needed is for those accumulated tendencies to be further > built on (i.e., developed). This is area of discussion. How exactly that is to be done? Can you please explain it to me? > > ... > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html > > > I'd like to comment on your sutta quotes, but 5 at a time is a bit > much for me ;-)) > > Please select the quote you think best illustrates your point about > "effort", and I'll start with that one. > > Jon > Lets start with MN20, for example. ========================== "If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness... With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html The sutta illustrates "doing" something about akusala thoughts. Not simply "understanding what one read in a book". Please explain how you understand it. Thanks, Best wishes, Alex #88732 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 7:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alex Was Wrong About Ekaggataa Re: Concentration with every citta nilovg Dear Mike, Op 5-aug-2008, om 1:56 heeft mlnease het volgende geschreven: > In our best moments we may remember that there is no insulter > behind the > insult and no one insulted, that there are just different moments of > seeing, thinking and so on, usually leading to the imagination of > people, events etc. into which there can be no real insight which, > after > all, is the only thing that matters. All conditioned and impermanent, > no one behind any of it, right or wrong unless I'm much mistaken. -------- N: Just studying the subco to the Sangiitisutta and so many reminders to be applied in daily life.About adhivaasana khanti, patience concerning our surroundings, when facing offenses from others (paraaparaadha). He is contented in what is well or bad (in prosperity and in adversities), he is brave, with temperance (soracca). Therefore it is said he has a gentle nature (suratabhaavo). In our best moments, as you said, because it depends on conditions to what extent this can be applied. Defilements are often in the way. I like all the reminders about gentle speech (saakhalya), speech which is not harsh or coarse, offensive... pleasant to the ear, affectionate, appealing to the heart, polished and cultured, charming to many people and pleasing to many people... Satipa.t.thaana is the condition for such good qualities. As you say, just different moments of seeing, thinking and so on, usually leading to the imagination of people, events etc. But then we may realize when we are taken in by imagination and stories. Even knowing that helps already. Nina. #88733 From: "connie" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 9:06 am Subject: Re: kayagatasati nichiconn Hi, All, Jon: The interpretation offered by the commentaries may seem "exotic" at first, but in my experience it is never inconsistent with the suttas. Some interpretation is obviously needed, because the term "exertion", in and of itself, is capable, in the context, of more than one meaning. connie: It just seems that 'exertion', 'energy' or 'effort' aren't really much of anything alone but indicate an intensity or level of assistance to/application of something else - say, 'patience' or 'irritation'. Butting back out. peace, connie #88734 From: "connie" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 9:28 am Subject: Re: SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? .. You May Disagree Again ... nichiconn Hi, All - Alex: When the defilements are temporary knocked out, it is the best time to develop REAL insight. connie: And maybe there is something else as well. I am thinking about BB's SN p.1084 note 181, which begins: << Atha ko carahi me attaa. Spk: It is said that this elder had started to practise insight meditation without having done discernment of conditions. >> peace, connie #88735 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 9:30 am Subject: Re: Just studying & Sariputta truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > > A priest may say: "Hear and reflect on the Bible, the true > teaching!" > > Yes, but for a start the admonition to "hear and reflect" is not >what I was talking about. The factor of "hearing the true dhamma", >as one of the 4 factors given by the Buddha, is something that >*happens* as a result of past kamma. Hearing the Bible is something that *happens* as a result of past kamma too! >It's not something that a person *does* by > choice in compliance with an instruction/suggestion. Same with the Bible. > Similarly, the reflecting is reflexive, not a deliberate act. Same with the Bible study. > In any event, there is certainly a difference between hearing and > reflecting on the Bible, and hearing and reflecting on the true > Dhamma. They all say that. "Ours teaching is better than yours!". In the tradition that I've followed prior to Buddhism it was: "Our teaching is the best, and the original one. If any other traditions sound like us, it is because they took (stolen) from our teaching. Other teachings are like a sandbox for children. Ours is final". > A person could not, by hearing an explanation of the > teachings in the Bible, come to an intellectual understanding of > dhammas and the way things truly are; only the hearing of the true > dhamma can make that possible, and without that hearing such > understanding could not occur. In Upanisa sutta the proximate condition is Samadhi. > And that intellectual understanding is requisite for direct > experience to occur. At best it only GUIDES one practice into a right direction. If you consider the written word as "The Gospel Truth", then its a Dogma which even Buddha has rejected. > > > Hearing the true dhamma is given as one of the 4 factors > necessary > > > for the develoment of insight and the attainment of >enlightenment. What are other 3? Supported by what does right view lead to Arhatship (mn43 or 44) Samatha, Vipassana! > > > When Sariputta became enlightened as a stream enterer, was the > path > > > consciousness based on jhana (according to the suttas)? > > > > The opening of Dhamma eye could definately be based on Jhana. But > > this doesn't mean that prior groundsetting (removal of hindrances) > > isn't needed. > > From reading your comments, I take it that the short answer to the > question I put to you is that there's *no indication* in the sutta > that Sariputta's enlightenment as a sotapanna was based on jhana. > You're really only speculating that there could be. Read Indriya-Samuytta on the 5 faculties needed for Stream Entry. Read what Samadhi-Indriya in most cases mean. Suttas also rarely if ever mention the monks having to answer the calls of nature. Does that mean that monks never had to answer it? No. It is included by default. Same with Sariputta. If just believing and seeing that "Everything changes", then Heraclitus or some of his students who taught such would have been Ariyas. > > The "mundane" jhana is very helpful at *suppressing* these > > defilements so that eye of wisdom could work. > > I think you're saying here that defilements need to be suppressed (by > samatha/jhana) in order for insight to be developed. Do you have any > sutta quotes to that effect? Indriya-Samuytta on the faculties required for dhamma/saddhanusarin & stream enterer require 4 Jhanas. > > Those whose coarse & > > middling defilements are weak, need less (if any) mundane Jhana for > > stream entry. Those who have more obscurations, need more cleaning. > > Now I'm confused. I thought you took the position that jhana was not > necessary for sotapanna stage of enlightenment (only for anagami > stage). > > But in any event, what is the sutta basis for your statement that: > "Those whose coarse and middling defilements are weak, need less (if > any) mundane Jhana for stream entry. Those who have more > obscurations, need more cleaning."? > > > Of course I believe than neither precepts, nor jhana by themselves > > can cause insight to arise. What they CAN do is to provide the > > required clarity of cognition so that eye-of-wisdom (instructed by > > the Buddha) could see. > > Again, any sutta quotes to support the statement that "jhana provides > the required clarity of cognition so that eye-of-wisdom can see"? > How can jhana provide any "clarity of cognition" if the necessary > insight has not already been developed? > > > The truth is happening constantly. It is just > > clouded by defilements. Precepts & Jhana drive the clouds away. The > > more clouds, the stronger Precepts & Jhana are required. When one > > knows what to look for (read the suttas) & manages to drive out the > > clouds - then enlightment can occur. > > Any sutta quote for the proposition that "The truth is happening > constantly. It is just clouded by defilements. Precepts & Jhana drive > the clouds away."? > > Jon > The Samadhi Indriya happens right before Panna-Indriya. ================================ "Monks, there are these five faculties. Which five? The faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment. [alex: note the order in which they develop. saddha->viriya->sati- >samadhi->panna ] "And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana... fourth jhana. This is called the faculty of concentration. "And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.010.than.html There is also a sutta somewhere that talks about 5 faculties being present in all noble induvidials (including saddha/dhamma nusarin) in different degrees. Weakest is in saddhanusarin, strongest in Arhat. Best wishes, Alex #88736 From: mlnease Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 9:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alex Was Wrong About Ekaggataa Re: Concentration with every citta m_nease Hi Nina, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Mike, > Op 5-aug-2008, om 1:56 heeft mlnease het volgende geschreven: > >> In our best moments we may remember that there is no insulter >> behind the >> insult and no one insulted, that there are just different moments of >> seeing, thinking and so on, usually leading to the imagination of >> people, events etc. into which there can be no real insight which, >> after >> all, is the only thing that matters. All conditioned and impermanent, >> no one behind any of it, right or wrong unless I'm much mistaken. > -------- > N: Just studying the subco to the Sangiitisutta and so many reminders > to be applied in daily life.About adhivaasana khanti, patience > concerning our surroundings, when facing offenses from others > (paraaparaadha). He is contented in what is well or bad (in > prosperity and in adversities), he is brave, with temperance > (soracca). Therefore it is said he has a gentle nature (suratabhaavo). > > In our best moments, as you said, because it depends on conditions to > what extent this can be applied. Defilements are often in the way. I > like all the reminders about gentle speech (saakhalya), speech which > is not harsh or coarse, offensive... pleasant to the ear, > affectionate, appealing to the heart, polished and cultured, charming > to many people and pleasing to many people... > Satipa.t.thaana is the condition for such good qualities. As you say, Great quotes, thanks. I'll be away for a week, I'll check in from the road if I can. mike #88737 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 9:37 am Subject: Induvidial types & their means of progress truth_aerator Dear Connie, Jon, Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Hi, All - > > Alex: When the defilements are temporary knocked out, it is the >best time to develop REAL insight. > > connie: And maybe there is something else as well. I am thinking >about BB's SN p.1084 note 181, which begins: << Atha ko carahi me ? >attaa. Spk: It is said that this elder had started to practise >insight meditation without having done discernment of conditions. >> > > peace, > connie Of course one needs to keep in mind Anicca-Dukkha-Anatta. But you can't avoid the hard work on the cushion and off. For most people, with dull faculties, mere hearing & reflecting isn't enough as the hindrances (irrational forces) are simply too strong. We aren't Ugghatitannu or A Vipancitannu , like some quickest and brightest students of the Buddga. ==== Four Classes of Individuals who encounter the Sasana (According to the Buddha as stated in the 'Puggala Pannatti' and the 'Anguttara Nikaya') Oo Maung (Reference='Bodhipakkhiya Dipani' by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D. Litt.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- (1) A Ugghatitannu : an individual who encounters a Buddha in person, and who is capable of attaining the Holy Paths and the Holy Fruits through the mere hearing of a short concise discourse. (2) A Vipancitannu: an individual who encounters a Buddha in person, but who is capable of attaining the Paths and the Fruits only when the short discourse is expounded to him at some length. At the present day, only the following Neyya and Padaparama classes of individuals remain. (3) A Neyya : an individual who needs to study the sermon and the exposition, and then to practise the provisions contained therein for 7 days to 60 years, to attain the Paths and the Fruits during this lifetime if he tries hard with guidance from the right teacher. (4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits within this lifetime. can attain release from worldly ills in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva within the present Buddha Sasana. Necessary Conditions of Practice for Neyya and Padaparama Individuals Neyya-puggala An individual of the Neyya class can become a Sotpanna in this present life, if he faithfully practises the bodhipakkhiya-dhamma comprising satipatthana (four Applications of Mindfulness), sammapadhana (Right Exertion), etc. If he is lax in his practice, he can become a Sotapanna only in his next existence after being reborn in the deva planes. If he dies while still aloof from these (bodhipakkhiya-Dhammas) he will become a total loss so far as the present Buddha Sasana is concerned, but he can still attain release from worldly ills if he encounters the Sasana of the next Buddha. Padaparama-puggala An individual of the Padaparama class can attain release only within the present Buddha Sasana after rebirth in the deva planes in his next existence, if he can faithfully practise the bodhipakkhiya- Dhammas in his present existence. The present Buddha Sasana will continue to exist so long as the Tipitakas remain in the world. The Padaparama class of individuals have to accumlate as much of the nuclei or seeds of Parami as they can within this lifetime. http://www.triplegem.plus.com/individu.htm ================= Best wishes, Alex #88739 From: "connie" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 10:03 am Subject: Accepting Bhaavanaa Means Accepting Development Of Samatha And Vipassana nichiconn Dear Sarah, Thanks for the good quote you provided in #88451 from Milinda Qus. Could you check the Paali given for 'meditation' in" --- On Mon, 28/7/08, connie wrote: >"The king once asked about the characteristic mark[s] of faith, perseverance, mindfulness and meditation. ........ "Then, meditation's characteristic mark: 'Being the leader, O king. All good qualities have meditation as their chief, they incline to it, lead up towards it, are as so many slopes up the side of the mountain of meditation.'" Thanks in advance, Metta, Sarah p.s a reference too would be nice. ======= http://sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3504.htm near the end of ch.1, #13 <>, illustrated by "all the rafters of the roof of a house" and a king as chief of "his army in its fourfold array". footnote for "meditation" = 60:3 < Samaadhi. Buddhaghosa, loc. cit. p. 6,5, gives also 'being the chief' as its mark, but he previously (p. 64) gives avikkhepa, 'serenity,' as the mark of sammaa-samaadhi, and also (p. 63) of samaadhindriya, while 'being unshaken by spiritual pride' is his mark (p. 63) of Samaadhi-bala. > (not to open another can of Those worms!) peace, connie #88740 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 10:13 am Subject: Alex Was Wrong About Ekaggataa Re: Concentration with every citta abhidhammika Dear Tep, Nina, Ken H, Sarah, Jon, Scott D, Mike, Alex, Phil, Howard, Connie How are you? Tep asked: "But how does satipa.t.thaanaa connect to sammaa samaadhi?" I was amazed to hear Tep's question.I thought it was obvious all along. Sammaa Sati leads to Sammaa samaadhi. Here is the Buddha's explanation - from Section 1, Avijjaasuttam, Mahaavaggo, Samyuttanikaayo.. "sammaavaayaamassa sammaasati pahoti; sammaasatissa sammaasamaadhi pahotii"ti. To one who makes the Right Effort, the Right Recollection happens. To one who develops the Right Recollection, the Right Concentration happens. The above translation is offered in light of the term `viddasuno, the wise one' that precedes the above linking statement. It is done in semi-paraphrase rendering for easier understanding. Literal translation would look like `to the right effort, the right recollection happens; to the right recollection, the right concentration happens.' You may choose either version of the translation. That is how satipa.t.thaanaa connects to sammaa samaadhi. Cheers! Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org PS-- THIS IS THE SECOND POSTING AS THE FIRST ONE WAS SENT BEFORE COMPLETION. PLEASE BEAR WITH ME. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > > Hi Suan (and Alex), - > > You and Alex are talking about ekaggata. > > But how does satipa.t.thaanaa connect to sammaa samaadhi? > > Tep > === > #88741 From: "Tep" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 10:34 am Subject: Re: kayagatasati .. Relentless Training ... dhammanusarin Hi Jon (Howard and others), - I have got a feeling that there is a fundamental difference between our understandings of the Four Noble Truths. > > Tep: Right view is an insight. The conditions that support right view are : understanding of the dhammas (see the list below), their origin, their cessation, and the way (path: patipada, magga) leading to their cessation. >Jon (#88715): Please consider whether what you give here as the "conditions that support right view" might instead be the realisation of developed insight, rather than supporting conditions. T: It seems that there is a confusion here. The idea in my earlier message #88601 might already have slipped from your memory. (#88601) Tep: The dhammas to be understood are as follows: the wholesome and the unwholesome; nutriment; the four noble truths; ageing & death and all other links of the DO from birth up to ignorance [MN 9]. T: Let's take a look at one of the dhammas in the list, e.g. nutriment. Arahant Sariputta said, " When a disciple of the noble ones discerns nutriment, the origination of nutriment, the cessation of nutriment, and the way of practice leading to the cessation of nutriment, then he is a person of right view... who has arrived at this true Dhamma". So it is clear to me that "then he is a person of right view..." is a consequence of the discernment of nutriment, its origin, its cessation, and the way of practice leading to its cessation. These four discernments of each DO link, in accordance with the Four Noble Truths, are the conditions for arising of right view (samma ditthi). But please feel free to elaborate why you think these four discernments are instead the realization of "developed insight", because I do not have a clue as to what you meant. ..................... > >Tep: If the practitioner's goal is "7 days to 7 years" as stated in > >Mahasatipatthana Sutta, which is a lot faster than "slowly > >accumulating panna" for aeons, then s/he has to be smart enough to > >support his/her practice with right nutriments with a sense of > >urgency so that they give "faster growth" ! > Jon: The "sense of urgency" (samvega) spoken of in the texts has nothing to do with the urgency arising from wanting to meet a target date/time-frame for the attainment of enlightenment ;-)) T: The Venerable Ananda had the urgency to attain arahantship so he could be qualified to attend the next-morning meeting of the arahants in order to review the Dhamma after the Buddha's Parinibbana. The following story is NOT a joke, Jon. "When the date set for the council came closer, Anuruddha suggested that his brother Ananda should only be admitted if he had overcome the last taints and had become an arahant. He knew the power of such an incentive. When Ananda heard this, he decided to employ every bit of strength and ability he possessed to realize Nibbana. He practiced the four foundations of mindfulness, a way which came most natural to him according to his tendencies. In the early hours of the morning, when he wanted to rest after his exertion, he knew without a doubt the he had attained release from all passions." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel273.html#sectio n-10 ................... > >"Thus you should train yourselves: > > ' We will relentlessly exert ourselves, [thinking,] > > "Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving > > just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can > > be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, > > there will be no relaxing our persistence." ' > > That's how you should train yourselves." > > [AN 2.5: Appativana Sutta. Relentlessly] >Jon: Regarding the passage above, the question still remains as to the nature of the "exerting". >Does it mean the arising of right effort that accompanies kusala, or does it mean something *done* in order to induce the arising of kusala? T: Of course, right effort arises as a kusala cetasika-dhamma. However, right effort cannot be separated from body and mind, Jon. Just like a man's voice is dependent on the man's vocal cord and other organs, right effort is not a tree that grows in the sky. The determination by the monks, "gladly would we let the fresh & blood etc.", indicates that there were earnest monks (that are defined by bodies -- rupa and maha-bhuta rupa-- , minds and cetasikas) who urgently practiced according to the Teachings of the real Buddha. Such determination and effort by those monks influenced their goal attainment -- they could reach nibbana faster, sooner than other monks who are not possessed of samma-vayama. >Jon: As I have pointed out before, the sequence involved in the latter interpretation, in the case of the effort to bring about the arising of presently unarisen kusala, would seem to be: (a) akusala now (b) deliberate effort made (c) kusala ensuing. >In that scenario, is the deliberate action that is the effort made at (b) seen as being kusala or akusala (or neither)? T: Knowing the Teachings about conditioned dhammas, one understands that right effort arises because of conditions (the four exertions as defined in DN 22, for example). In MN 117 right effort of the path is accompanied by right view and right mindfulness. As a consequence, an arising of "presently unarisen kusala" will occur with no akusala dhamma whatsover. Such right effort is volitional formations, therefore there is intention/volition with desire (chanda) to accomplish a goal such as aiming for the arising of "presently unarisen kusala", etc. In this scenario, the deliberate intentional/volitional action (kamma) is always meritorious. Tep === #88742 From: "Tep" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 11:10 am Subject: Alex Was Wrong About Ekaggataa Re: Concentration with every citta dhammanusarin Hi Suan, - Thanks to you for responding to my question: "How is right mindfulness connect to right concentration?". >Suan: >To one who makes the Right Effort, the Right Recollection happens. To one who develops the Right Recollection, the Right Concentration happens. >The above translation is offered in light of the term `viddasuno, the wise one' that precedes the above linking statement. It is done in semi-paraphrase rendering for easier understanding. >Literal translation would look like `to the right effort, the right recollection happens; to the right recollection, the right concentration happens.' >You may choose either version of the translation. >That is how satipa.t.thaanaa connects to sammaa samaadhi. T: Without any intention to contradict or to be disrespectful to you, Suan, I sincerely think my question asks about "how" or equivalently, it asks for the way right concentration happens in one who develops right mindfulness. The above translation does not show how right concentration happens; it only states that the right concentration just happens. There is no elaboration about "how' it happens. See my point? Tep === #88743 From: "connie" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 11:24 am Subject: Re: Induvidial types & their means of progress nichiconn Dear Friends, alex: For most people, with dull faculties, mere hearing & reflecting isn't enough as the hindrances (irrational forces) are simply too strong. We aren't Ugghatitannu or A Vipancitannu , like some quickest and brightest students of the Buddga. ==== connie: our best bet is to assume the worst here... which, as i read it, is what the kalama/kesaputtiya sutta says as well (talking about the four 'consolations'); commentaries are also best bet/consolations for those of us who need all the help we can get. peace, connie SN 22:8 Then at once a lofty rapture and gladness arose in the Venerable Channa as he thought: "It seems tht I am capable of understanding the Dhamma." #88744 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 12:50 pm Subject: Sati -> Samadhi Anapanasati truth_aerator Dear Tep, Suan and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > Hi Suan, - > The above translation does not show how right concentration >happens; it only states that the right concentration just happens. > > There is no elaboration about "how' it happens. See my point? > > Tep > === Check out Anapanasati Sutta. It is more detailed explanation of satipatthana leading to all 9 meditation levels (dipa sutta). And regarding "Seeing realities" "If a monk should wish, 'May I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enter & remain in the cessation of perception & feeling,' then he should attend closely to this very same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "When concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing has been thus developed, thus pursued, one senses a feeling of pleasure. One discerns it as 'inconstant.' One discerns it as 'not grasped at.' One discerns it as 'not relished.' One senses a feeling of pain. One discerns it as 'inconstant.' One discerns it as 'not grasped at.' One discerns it as 'not relished.' One senses a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. One discerns it as 'inconstant.' One discerns it as 'not grasped at.' One discerns it as 'not relished.' "If one senses a feeling of pleasure, one senses it as if disjoined from it. If one senses a feeling of pain, one senses it as if disjoined from it. If one senses a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one senses it as if disjoined from it. When sensing a feeling limited to the body, one discerns, 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns, 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' One discerns, 'With the break- up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is experienced, not being relished, will grow cold right here.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.008.than.html Notice that Buddha asked us to develop Anapanasamadhi FIRST. Maybe even up to Cessation of Perception & Feeling, so that afterwards one maybe released from atta-clinging toward every feeling (Arhatship). Best wishes, Alex #88745 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 12:54 pm Subject: Neyya & Padaparama truth_aerator Dear ALL, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > alex: > For most people, with dull faculties, mere hearing & reflecting >isn't enough as the hindrances (irrational forces) are simply too >strong. > > We aren't Ugghatitannu or A Vipancitannu , like some quickest and >brightest students of the Buddga. > ==== > connie: our best bet is to assume the worst here... (3) A Neyya : an individual who needs -to study the sermon and the exposition, and then to practise the provisions contained therein for 7 days to 60 years, to attain the Paths and the Fruits during this lifetime if he tries hard with guidance from the right teacher. (4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits within this lifetime. can attain release from worldly ills in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or vipassana [alex: Important!] and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva within the present Buddha Sasana. Necessary Conditions of Practice for Neyya and Padaparama Individuals Neyya-puggala An individual of the Neyya class can become a Sotpanna in this present life, if he faithfully practises the bodhipakkhiya-dhamma comprising satipatthana (four Applications of Mindfulness), sammapadhana (Right Exertion), etc. If he is lax in his practice, he can become a Sotapanna only in his next existence after being reborn in the deva planes. If he dies while still aloof from these (bodhipakkhiya-Dhammas) he will become a total loss so far as the present Buddha Sasana is concerned, but he can still attain release from worldly ills if he encounters the Sasana of the next Buddha. Padaparama-puggala An individual of the Padaparama class can attain release only within the present Buddha Sasana after rebirth in the deva planes in his next existence, if he can faithfully practise the bodhipakkhiya- Dhammas in his present existence. The present Buddha Sasana will continue to exist so long as the Tipitakas remain in the world. The Padaparama class of individuals have to accumlate as much of the nuclei or seeds of Parami as they can within this lifetime. (According to the Buddha as stated in the 'Puggala Pannatti' and the 'Anguttara Nikaya') Oo Maung (Reference='Bodhipakkhiya Dipani' by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D. Litt.) http://www.triplegem.plus.com/individu.htm Best wishes, Alex #88746 From: "Tep" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 1:56 pm Subject: Re: Sati -> Samadhi Anapanasati dhammanusarin Hi Alex, Suan, Sarah and Jon, - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > Check out Anapanasati Sutta. It is more detailed explanation of > satipatthana leading to all 9 meditation levels (dipa sutta). > > And regarding "Seeing realities" > > "If a monk should wish, 'May I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enter & remain in the cessation of perception & feeling,' then he should attend closely to this very same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. > > "When concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing has > been thus developed, thus pursued, one senses a feeling of pleasure. One discerns it as 'inconstant.' One discerns it as 'not grasped at.' One discerns it as 'not relished.' One senses a feeling of pain. One discerns it as 'inconstant.' One discerns it as 'not grasped at.' One discerns it as 'not relished.' One senses a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. One discerns it as 'inconstant.' One discerns it as 'not grasped at.' One discerns it as 'not relished.' > "If one senses a feeling of pleasure, one senses it as if disjoined > from it. If one senses a feeling of pain, one senses it as if > disjoined from it. If one senses a feeling of neither pleasure nor > pain, one senses it as if disjoined from it. When sensing a feeling > limited to the body, one discerns, 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns, 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' One discerns, 'With the break- > up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is > experienced, not being relished, will grow cold right here.' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.008.than.html > > > Notice that Buddha asked us to develop Anapanasamadhi FIRST. Maybe > even up to Cessation of Perception & Feeling, so that afterwards one maybe released from atta-clinging toward every feeling (Arhatship). > ================== T: Thank you very much, Alex. This is the first time I see SN54.8. I do not understand much of it though. If you can contrast/compare this profound sutta with the Anapanasati Sutta in regard to "satipatthana leading to all 9 meditation levels", then it will be a great service to us all. BTW why does "atta-clinging" (attavadupadana?) hang on to the entry to Arahantship? How can it be so tough, if our worldling-friends Sarah and Jon already can see not-self and no-self in all dhammas at the present moment? Tep === #88747 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 3:29 pm Subject: Re: Sati -> Samadhi Anapanasati truth_aerator Hi Tep, Sarah, Jon and all, -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > > Hi Alex, Suan, Sarah and Jon, - > > T: Thank you very much, Alex. This is the first time I see SN54.8. Please read it and remember about the question of "One discerns it as 'inconstant.' One discerns it as 'not grasped at.' One discerns it as 'not relished.' " (feeling of pain, pleasure, neither). It also tells us what to do in order ""If one senses [alex: any] feeling, one senses it as if disjoined from it" . If we stick to the sutta itself it tells us these benefits happening: Neither eyes nor body get fatigued. With kasina (or other visual) meditations on the other hand the eyes CAN become fatigued. All 9 Jhanas can be achieved. Then it depends on precise interpretation of: "When concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing has been thus developed, thus pursued,one senses a feeling" ... discernement of feelings which lead to Arhatship". Does that imply that only after Cessation of Perception & Feelings one can totally obliterate all the remaining 5 higher fetters?" Or are some attainments (ex: formless Jhanas) are optional? Knowing that Buddha didn't like to add useless (or optional material...) it may mean that reaching all 9 Jhanas is required for Arhatship and to know disconect 'residual feeling of self' in feelings. Sariputta become an Arahant after Cessation of Perception & Feelings (mn111) . > > BTW why does "atta-clinging" (attavadupadana?) hang on to the entry > to Arahantship? I've meant residual clinging, residual conceit is present in Anagamis. Even though one knows that feelings (and other stuff) isn't I, there is still attachement to some feelings in Anagamis (pertaining to Rupa/Arupa loka) >How can it be so tough, if our worldling-friends > Sarah and Jon already can see not-self and no-self in all dhammas >at the present moment? Our dearest beloved Dhamma friends Sarah & Jon are Arahants :). Final Avijja is one of the 5 Higher fetters, and it is actually the LAST ONE TO GO (#10). Kama-Raga is fetter #4, for your information. >I do not understand much of it though. Please read the sutta and tell me the specific parts you don't understand. > If you can contrast/compare this > profound sutta with the Anapanasati Sutta in regard >to "satipatthana leading to all 9 meditation levels", then it will >be a great service to us all. Both suttas describe 16 steps of Anapana. Both suttas tell that Anapanasati can lead to Arahatship. Dipa sutta mentions that Buddha did it to achieve Arhatship. "I myself, monks, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened bodhisatta, often dwelt in this [meditative] dwelling. While I was dwelling in this [meditative] dwelling, neither my body nor my eyes were fatigued, and the mind — through lack of clinging/sustenance — was released from mental fermentations. " Dipa sutta mentions that development of faculties (such as mentioned in mn152) can be done through Anapanasamadhi itself. "May I be percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome" - a sort of Asubha practice result. Also anapanasamadhi can lead one to all 9 Jhanas & actual feeling of not-self rather than all this talk "NO SELF!" even though one feels as IF there is a Self. Anapanasati Sutta adds: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination [alex: 4 satipatthana]. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination [alex: Arhatship]. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html In other words, Satipatthana can be done through anapanasati. Read the two suttas and please tell me what they say. Best wishes, Alex #88748 From: mlnease Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 3:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just studying... m_nease Hi Sarah, Thanks very much for this, I'll try hanging onto it for a change. By the way, since wrong practice isn't to the benefit of oneself or of others, the Firebrand is (referred to below? Haven't had time to check) also pertinent to this thread I think. Thanks again. mike sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Mike & (Phil, Alex, Herman, Tep & all), > > --- On Sun, 3/8/08, m_nease > wrote: > >>The address you posted for Mettanet's Alagagaddupama- sutta .... > http://mettanet. org/tipitaka/ 2Sutta-Pitaka/ 2Majjhima- > Nikaya/Majjhima1 /022-alagagaddup ama-sutta- e1.html > > Thanks for posting this.... > .... > S:Thanks for the correct link. > > As it happens, I've quoted part of the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation of the > snake simile before (along with notes on the raft simile) > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24878 > > "Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma- discourses, stnzas, > expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories, marvels, and > answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma, they do not examine > the meaning of those teachings with wisdom, they do not gain a reflective > acceptance of them. Instead they learn the Dhamma only for the sake of > criticizing others and for winning in debates, and they do not experience > the good for the sake of which they learned the Dhamma. Those teachings, > being wrongly grasped by them, conduce to their harm and suffering for a > long time." > > Note253: > "MA [the commentary] explains that this passage is stated in order to show > the fault in wrongly motivated acquisition of intellectual knowledge of > the Dhamma - apparently the pitfall into which Arittha fell. The 'good > (attha) for the sake of which they learned the Dhamma' is the paths and > fruits." > ***** > S: Phil and others have been surprised at your comment about reading > suttas with wrong view being 'far more dangerous than not reading them > at all'. I think this (the surprise) is because we're used to > considering useful study, refuge in the Dhamma, the Buddha's teaching or > pariyatti in terms of the words or the texts rather than in terms of the > wholesome qualities and development of right understanding in particular > at the present moment, regardless of the activity, even if it be reading > suttas. > > This reminds me of Nina's summary from the subcommentary to the Sangitii > sutta with regard to noble friendship and association with the good > friend as referring to the: "association with wholesome qualities of > confidence in kusala, sati, pa~n~naa, calm, right energy. The lokuttara > kusala citta is endowed with all good qualities in the highest degree. > Here good friendship has been explained by way of paramattha dhammas. > One should not follow a person but 'associate with' the wholesome > qualities accompanying kusala citta." > > S: In the end it always comes back to the right understanding and other > wholesome states no matter what company we are in or what we are > studying now. > > Finally, here is the longer quote (which includes the above) from the > translation of the Atthasalinii (PTS, Expositor) which Connie and I have > quoted before: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/87235 > > C: >Expositor [23-24]: > "Herein three kinds of study of the three Pi.takas should be considered: > studyafter the manner of one catching a snake, study for the purpose of > salvation, and study as of a treasurer. Of these, that study which is > badly acquired out of a desire to be vexatious to others, etc., is like > catching a snake. Concerning which it is said: 'Just as, bhikkhus, a > person desirous of catching a snake goes out in search of one. He sees a > big snake and catches it either by the body or the tail. And the snake > turning back bites him on the hand, the arm, or any other part of the > body big or small. On that account he dies or suffers pain approaching > death. And why? Because, bhikkhus, of his bad catching of the snake. > > "In the same way, bhikkhus, in the religion some good-for-nothing persons > improperly study the doctrine in its various branches. Having studied the > doctrine they do not intelligently consider the meaning of the text. And > the meaning not being considered with understanding, those acquired > doctrines do not lend themselves to close insight. These people study > the doctrine for the purpose of annoying others or of freeing themselves > from the criticism or scoffing of others. [*Or, 'to free oneself from > the oppression of others'.] For whatever Good right-minded people study > the doctrine, that Good these good-for-nothing people do not experience; > and the doctrines being badly acquired are conducive to their > disadvantage and misery for a long time. > > "Wherefore? Because, bhikkhus, of their being badly acquired.' [MN i > 133f] But that study, which is well acquired by one desirous of > fulfilling a body of precepts, etc., and not for the sake of annoying > others, is for the sake of salvation, concerning which it is said: 'The > doctrines being well acquired conduce to the advantage and happiness for > a long time. Wherefore? Because, bhikkhus, of their being well acquired. > [MN i 134] Finally, the saint, who has acquired a complete knowledge of > the aggregates, got rid of the corruptions, developed the Path, > penetrated the Fruition of Arahantship, realized the Truth of Cessation, > and extinguished the intoxicants, studies merely for the purpose of > preserving the tradition, and of guarding the lineage of the doctrine. > This is the study of the treasurer. The bhikkhu, who is well practised > in the Vinaya, arrives, by fulfilling the precepts, at the three kinds > of knowledge, which are fully treated of therein. The > bhikkhu, who is well versed in the Suttas, arrives, by his attainment of > concentration, at the six branches of super-knowledge, which are fully > treated of therein. The bhikkhu, who is well cultivated in the > Abhidhamma, arrives, by his attainment of understanding, at the four > analyses, which are fully treated of therein. Thus the bhikkhu, who is > well trained in the three Pi.takas, in due course arrives at the > attainment of the three kinds of knowledge, the six branches of > super-knowledge, and the four analyses. > > "But the bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Vinaya, imagines that there > is no fault in the forbidden sensations of touch, because the touch of > these is similar to that of blankets and cloaks, etc., which are > pleasurable and are permitted by the Buddha. And it has been said: [MN i > 130] 'I know the doctrine taught by the Blessed One, namely, that > certain things are inimical (to progress), but that they are incapable > of doing any harm to one who uses them in certain ways.' Consequently > the bhikkhu arrives at evil practices. The bhikkhu, who is ill trained > in the Sutta, gets a wrong idea, not knowing the meaning of such > passages as, 'There are, bhikkhus, four persons in the world,' [D iii > 232; M i 341; A ii 205] concerning which it has been said, 'Owing to his > wrong ideas, [*Or, 'owing to his wrong nature or conduct'] he accuses > us, harms himself and produces much demerit.' Consequently he arrives at > wrong views. > > "The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma, makes his mind run > to excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. > For it has been said, 'Bhikkhus, there are four unthinkables, things > that should not be thought of. Madness or vexation will be the portion > of him who does so.' [A ii 80] Thus the bhikkhu, who is ill trained in > the three Pi.takas in due course arrives at failure of different sorts, > such as evil principles, wrong views, mental derangement. So far the > import of the verse --- 'what each attains / In these three studies, how > he may succeed, / Wherein he fails, let this too be explained' --- has > been explained. > > "Thus the three Pi.takas by the knowledge of the scriptures in various > ways are to be known as the Buddha's word. > > < > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah #88749 From: "Tep" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:06 pm Subject: Re: Sati -> Samadhi Anapanasati .. Arahant Friends .. dhammanusarin Hi, Alex (Suan, Sarah, Jon), - > >Tep: > >How can it be so tough, if our worldling-friends > >Sarah and Jon already can see not-self and no-self in all dhammas > >at the present moment? >Alex: Our dearest beloved Dhamma friends Sarah & Jon are Arahants :). T: No kidding! But you must be right since I can't find another explanation. >Alex: Read the two suttas and please tell me what they say. T: Okay. Thanks. Tep === #88750 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:37 pm Subject: Re: Sati -> Samadhi Anapanasati .. Arahant Friends .. truth_aerator Hi Tep, Sarah, Jon and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > Hi, Alex (Suan, Sarah, Jon), - > > >Alex: Read the two suttas and please tell me what they say. > > T: Okay. Thanks. > > > Tep > === Those two suttas are fairly clear about the practice the Buddha did and a good way of developing sattipatthana leading to various important attainments, including Arhatship. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.008.than.html Can anyone explain it away in as convincing manner as the sutta talk about anapana-bhavana (derogatory known as "formal meditation"). Jon, Sarah? Best wishes, Alex #88751 From: "nichiconn" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 6:20 pm Subject: Re: Sati -> Samadhi Anapanasati .. Arahant Friends .. nichiconn > > >Alex: Our dearest beloved Dhamma friends Sarah & Jon are > Arahants :). > > T: No kidding! But you must be right since I can't find another > explanation. > my apologies to the list at large! i've always thought it seemed like a lot of non-returners post here. peace, connie #88752 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 7:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stream enterer endowed with N8P (which includes Jhana) egberdina Hi Sarah, 2008/8/5 sarah abbott : > Hi Tep (Alex & all), > > The texts make it very clear that in the case of the sukkha-vipassikas (dry insight-workers) there is no prior jhana. > > [Lots and lots on all of this in U.P. under 'Jhana - two kinds', 'Sukkha-vipassika', 'Jhana -meanings' etc.] > ........ It is abundantly clear that sukkha vipassikas are a commentarial contrivance. It is understandable, but not excusable, that a commentator would come up with such "an out" for their own lack of attainments. I understand that there are and have been academically inclined folks, who love studying books, since way back, and that is all good and well. What is not good and well, because it is quite insincere, is a need to justify whatever one loves doing so much. In this case that is appealing to the authority of the Buddha to find some stamp of approval for whatever it is that dry-insight workers love doing so much, when that approval is coming only from an academic. Cheers Herman #88753 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 12:39 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 4, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 4. The right understanding which is developed in vipassanå sees realities as they are: impermanent, dukkha and anattå. This understanding has to be developed, it cannot arise without conditions. We have accumulated such a great deal of ignorance and wrong view during countless lives. From the teachings we have learnt that seeing is not self, that hearing is not self, that all realities are not self. However, when seeing has arisen, do we know it as it is, or do we still have an idea of self who sees? Is it still “my seeing”? Do we still have an idea of my hearing, my thinking, my feeling, my attachment, my kusala? The Buddha spoke about all the phenomena which are experienced through the six doorways of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind-door. He spoke about seeing and visible object, hearing and sound and about all the other phenomena. We read in the “Kindred Sayings”(IV, Saîåyatanavagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Ch III, § 23): “Monks, I will teach you the all. Do you listen to it. And what, monks, is the all? It is eye and object, ear and sound, nose and scent, tongue and savour, body and things tangible, mind and mind- states. That, monks, is called ‘the all’. Whoso, monks, should say: ’Rejecting this all, I will proclaim another all’- it would be mere talk on his part, and when questioned he could not make good his boast, and further would come to an ill pass. Why so? Because, monks, it would be beyond his scope to do so.” Besides the realities which can be experienced through the six doors, there are no other realities. We read in § 25 of the same section: “I will teach you a teaching, monks, for the abandoning of the all by fully knowing, by comprehending it. Do you listen to it. And what, monks, is that teaching? The eye, monks, must be abandoned by fully knowing, by comprehending it. Objects... eye-consciousness... eye-contact... that pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or neutral feeling... that also must be abandoned by fully knowing, by comprehending it. The tongue, savours... The mind... mindstates... that pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or neutral feeling... that also must be must be abandoned by fully knowing, by comprehending it.” All these phenomena are elements which arise and fall away, they are not beings or things which stay. Seeing is not a person, not self, it is a moment of consciousness, a citta, which arises, performs the function of seeing and then falls away immediately. ****** Nina. #88754 From: "Tep" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 2:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Stream enterer endowed with N8P (which includes Jhana) dhammanusarin Hi Herman (Sarah, Alex, ..), - It is abundantly clear, isn't it, that promoters of a methodology, a "new" way of life, or anything that is of interest to them, are concerned only with what they want to promote? Sometimes, commentators are not much different than promoters. >Herman: It is abundantly clear that sukkha vipassikas are a commentarial contrivance. It is understandable, but not excusable, that a commentator would come up with such "an out" for their own lack of attainments. I understand that there are and have been academically inclined folks, who love studying books, since way back, and that is all good and well. What is not good and well, because it is quite insincere, is a need to justify whatever one loves doing so much. In this case that is appealing to the authority of the Buddha to find some stamp of approval for whatever it is that dry-insight workers love doing so much, when that approval is coming only from an academic. T: So it is up to the public to be wise enough to ignore what is not true or not useful or promotional item, and adopt only the test- proven Teachings of Buddhas. Your friend, Tep === #88755 From: "Tep" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 3:17 am Subject: Re: Just studying... dhammanusarin Dear Sarah and all others, - I wonder how many readers read a long post with steady attention from the first to the last word? However, no-one can deny that your long quote this time is a very useful guideline for Dhamma discussion. The Buddha's warning against misguided discussion is also very valuable. Thank you. -- "Having studied the doctrine they do not intelligently consider the meaning of the text. And the meaning not being considered with understanding, those acquired doctrines do not lend themselves to close insight. These people study the doctrine for the purpose of annoying others or of freeing themselves from the criticism or scoffing of others." -- Don't learn the Dhamma (discourses, etc.) "for the sake of criticising others and for winning in debates" because "those teachings, being wrongly grasped by them, conduce to their harm and sufering for a long time." -- "Finally, the saint, who has acquired a complete knowledge of the aggregates, got rid of the corruptions, developed the Path, penetrated the Fruition of Arahantship, realized the Truth of Cessation, and extinguished the intoxicants, studies merely for the purpose of preserving the tradition, and of guarding the lineage of the doctrine. This is the study of the treasurer." May we all adopt the "study of the treasurer" for our own great benefit ! Tep === #88756 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 5:24 am Subject: Be a special person szmicio Dear Dhamma Friends, Ajahn Sujin wrote on her book that, studying, considering and appling Dhamma in life shouldn't be motivated by trying to become something special, but that's thinking about MY understanding, MY Dhamma is present most the day. I think about myself who develops understending, who is most brillant than others. There is so much thinking on account of what I read. ??? There is so much lobha,when I am trying to observe seeing or hearing. But now i've notice that to do nothing is much more benficial than doing anything on account having more understanding or more sati. bye Lukas #88757 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 5:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Be a special person nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 6-aug-2008, om 14:24 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > But now i've notice that to do nothing is much more benficial than > doing anything on account having more understanding or more sati. ------- N: First of all we have to find out whether even doing nothing is not motivated by a self. It is not a question of doing something or doing nothing. It is understanding that is important. There are many levels of understanding and it grows by listening and considering on and on. It never is enough. We read in the suttas about seeing, hearing etc. which are impermanent. To begin with we really have to understand what seeing is, before the impermanence can be realized when stages of insight have been reached. Seeing sees colour, not a person. It seems that we see persons and things all day long. It should be known that that is thinking, not seeing. But we should not try to know seeing, that is "me" trying again. No need to worry about that, it can be realized more and more when the idea of self comes in. It is conditioned, we have accumulated this idea for so long. The sotaapanna can eradicate it. Before hearing the Buddha's teachings we did not know about this at all, but now we can learn and begin to understand. This is most valuable. We should be grateful. Nina. #88758 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 4, no 1. egberdina Hi Nina, 2008/8/6 Nina van Gorkom : > Dear friends, > > > We read in the "Kindred Sayings"(IV, Saîåyatanavagga, Kindred Sayings > on Sense, Ch III, § 23): > > "Monks, I will teach you the all. Do you listen to it. And what, > monks, is the all? It is eye and object, ear and sound, nose and > scent, tongue and savour, body and things tangible, mind and mind- > states. That, monks, is called 'the all'. > > Whoso, monks, should say: 'Rejecting this all, I will proclaim > another all'- it would be mere talk on his part, and when questioned > he could not make good his boast, and further would come to an ill > pass. Why so? Because, monks, it would be beyond his scope to do so." Yes, exactly, Nina. And that is why those who proclaim nibbana as being an element are worthy of being ignored :-) Cheers Herman #88759 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 8:59 am Subject: Alex Was Wrong About Ekaggataa Re: Concentration with every citta abhidhammika Dear Tep, Alex, Nina, Sarah, Jon, Mike, Connie, Phil, Howard How are you? Tep wrote: "Without any intention to contradict or to be disrespectful to you, Suan, I sincerely think my question asks about "how" or equivalently, it asks for the way right concentration happens in one who develops right mindfulness." The above translation does not show how right concentration happens; it only states that the right concentration just happens. There is no elaboration about "how' it happens. See my point?" Tep, your original question was how the Right Recollection and the Right Concentration relate or link to each other. Tep's question: "How is right mindfulness connect to right concentration?" The Sutta snippet I translated does give the Right Recollection as the cause and condition for the Right Concentration to arise. It answers the why question. It does not merely state that the Right Concentration just happens, as you put it. Sorry, Tep. If you were asking me for my personal opinions (attanomati) regarding the way or the manner (aakaara) in which the Right Concentration happens, I have none at the moment. I am very weak on personal opinions. I mainly rely on my Pali knowledge to offer the Buddha's explanations on the matter at hand. Even in that respect, I could not offer much, nor soon enough, as I can make only very brief visits when I have time to visit. So my response to the questions may take longer at best, or may not even eventuate at worst. Searching relevant Suttas and translating the relevant lines require time and patience to ensure faithful sensible representation of the Buddha's teachings. But, I think you are in good hands now as Alex provided you with important Suttas that answer your questions. So, for the time being, please accept Alex's offer and read those recommended Suttas. Cheers! Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #88760 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 11:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] to Han, good wishes nilovg Dear Han, I hope your health will improve and if you feel like it, perhaps you could share with us your reflections on death, that is beneficial for everybody. With our sympathy and best wishes, Nina and Lodewijk. Op 27-jul-2008, om 6:47 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Most of the time, I just want to be left alone. I just want to > quietly practice breathing meditation, or pass my time reflecting > on the dhammas that I have learned, reflecting on the attributes of > Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, and reflecting on the death. #88761 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 11:41 am Subject: Re: Just studying... truth_aerator Dear Tep and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > > Dear Sarah and all others, - > May we all adopt the "study of the treasurer" for our own great > benefit ! > > Tep > === Study for realization first. Have you read "Broken Buddha" ? It has something to tell about a senior monk's experience in the tradition of merely passing the treasure, rather than practicing it. Remember that without personal realization (and confirmation), then we don't know what we are passing on! Besides, an Ariya can explain and pass on the teaching in a better way. Best wishes, Alex #88762 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 12:00 pm Subject: Re: to Han, good wishes hantun1 Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Thank you very much for your sympathy and best wishes. I will share my reflections some other time. Respectfully, Han #88763 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 12:29 pm Subject: Re: Nibbana isn't a thing. If it is a Dhamma, why not space being Dhamma? truth_aerator Dear Herman, Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > 2008/8/6 Nina van Gorkom : > > Dear friends, > > > > > > We read in the "Kindred Sayings"(IV, Saîåyatanavagga, Kindred >Sayings > > on Sense, Ch III, § 23): > > > > "Monks, I will teach you the all. Do you listen to it. And what, > > monks, is the all? It is eye and object, ear and sound, nose and > > scent, tongue and savour, body and things tangible, mind and mind- > > states. That, monks, is called 'the all'. > > > > Whoso, monks, should say: 'Rejecting this all, I will proclaim > > another all'- it would be mere talk on his part, and when >questioned > > he could not make good his boast, and further would come to an ill > > pass. Why so? Because, monks, it would be beyond his scope to do >so." > > Yes, exactly, Nina. And that is why those who proclaim nibbana as > being an element are worthy of being ignored :-) > > Cheers > > Herman How can Nibbana be a "dhamma" (thing) if it is absence of everything, absence of every "dhamma"? If Nibbana is included, then why not space? After all, space is considered to be merely an emptiness of an object, not an object itself. I wonder if "space" is merely an absence of a thing. After all, space isn't uniform, it is connected to time (space-time), and there is such thing as space-time curvature - not to mention non euclidian geometry. Space DOES have properties, rather than being a simple vaccumm. The Buddha did consider the space to be one of the elements on par with 4 mahabhutas (mn140 if I remember correctly) Best wishes, Alex #88764 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 12:38 pm Subject: Re: Be a special person - truth_aerator Dear All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Ajahn Sujin wrote on her book that, studying, considering and >appling Dhamma in life shouldn't be motivated by trying to become >something special, but that's thinking about MY understanding, MY >Dhamma is present most the day. This isn't what Buddhism is about. Read the Bhikkhuni sutta. ======= "'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness- release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then, at a later time, he abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. "'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then, at a later time, he abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html ========= It is funny when the words of commentators is often more final, then the words of Ananda & Buddha. > There is so much lobha,when I am trying to observe seeing or >hearing. If the "greed" leads to non-greed and other good kusala states, then it is beneficial. Buddha has often refused "cut & dried rules" and has said in a similiar fashion "if it leads to kusala and waning of akusala, then it is good and should be pursued." > But now i've notice that to do nothing is much more benficial than > doing anything on account having more understanding or more sati. Question is: Can a worldling "do nothing" or is it simply fooling oneself? The only person who can consistently (and ALWAYS) do nothing (in terms of intentions) is an ARAHANT. Best wishes, Alex #88765 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 1:02 pm Subject: Puggala truth_aerator Hi All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nichiconn" wrote: > >i've always thought it seemed like a lot of non-returners post here. > > peace, > connie > connie: our best bet is to assume the worst here... Neyya & Padaparama induvidials are the worst 2. ============ (3) A Neyya : an individual who needs -to study the sermon and the exposition, and then to practise the provisions contained therein for 7 days to 60 years, to attain the Paths and the Fruits during this lifetime if he tries hard with guidance from the right teacher. (4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits within this lifetime. can attain release from worldly ills in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or vipassana [alex: Important!] and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva within the present Buddha Sasana. Necessary Conditions of Practice for Neyya and Padaparama Individuals Neyya-puggala An individual of the Neyya class can become a Sotpanna in this present life, if he faithfully practises the bodhipakkhiya-dhamma comprising satipatthana (four Applications of Mindfulness), sammapadhana (Right Exertion), etc. If he is lax in his practice, he can become a Sotapanna only in his next existence after being reborn in the deva planes. If he dies while still aloof from these (bodhipakkhiya-Dhammas) he will become a total loss so far as the present Buddha Sasana is concerned, but he can still attain release from worldly ills if he encounters the Sasana of the next Buddha. Padaparama-puggala An individual of the Padaparama class can attain release only within the present Buddha Sasana after rebirth in the deva planes in his next existence, if he can faithfully practise the bodhipakkhiya- Dhammas in his present existence. The present Buddha Sasana will continue to exist so long as the Tipitakas remain in the world. The Padaparama class of individuals have to accumlate as much of the nuclei or seeds of Parami as they can within this lifetime. (According to the Buddha as stated in the 'Puggala Pannatti' and the 'Anguttara Nikaya') Oo Maung (Reference='Bodhipakkhiya Dipani' by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D. Litt.) http://www.triplegem.plus.com/individu.htm Best wishes, Alex #88766 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 2:16 pm Subject: Abhidhamma question: What is the difference between these: ? truth_aerator Hello all, Can someone please explain what is the difference between: a) Citta rooted in Greed & lobha cetasika? b) Tranquility of Mind Vs Tranquility of Mental factors? (citta vs kaya passadhi) c) Ekaggata vs Vitakka d) Ekaggata Vs Vicara Thank you, Best wishes, Alex #88767 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 5:36 pm Subject: Sila Always Comes First ! indriyabala Hi Nina, Sarah and Jon - Some Buddhists incorrectly believe that pa~n~na comes first and that "understanding" through reading or listening and considering the Paramathha-dhammas would purify both Sila and Samadhi. The Dhamma-vinaya and several suttas clearly show the sequential Sila- Samadhi-Pa~n~na development, starting with restraint of the senses. This is a good one: "If there is no sense control, o monks, then the basis for virtue is destroyed for one who lacks sense control. If there is no virtue, then the basis for right concentration is destroyed for one who lacks virtue. If there is no concentration, then the basis for knowledge and vision of things as they really are is destroyed for one who lacks concentration." [AN VI, 50] I thought you might want to know. Tep === #88768 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 5:55 pm Subject: Re: Sila Always Comes First ! Graduated Talk truth_aerator Dear Tep and all, Here is a talk leading to Stream Entry: ânupubbî-kathâ: step by step teaching 1) Generosity (dâna) 2) Virtue (sîla) 3) Heaven (sagga) 4) Danger &Drawback of sensual pleasure (kâmânaṃ âdînava) 5) Renunciation (nekkhamma) Then when the mind is ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, the 6)The Four Noble Truths (cattâri ariya-saccâni) is taught. After this Stream Entry is achieved with a stock phrase: "And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way,... the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation." Having seen the Dhamma, reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a footing in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more perplexity, having gained fearlessness & independence from others with regard to the Teacher's message, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.03.than.html Question: 1)Who here knows a better step by step talk than the Buddha's? 2) Where do Paramattha Dhammas fit in? Talk about Heaven & Virtue isn't exactly a "paramattha material". In the Renunciation (Nekkhama) part ====== Renunciation (from Sensuality =========== Even I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, thought: 'Renunciation is good. Seclusion is good.' But my heart didn't leap up at renunciation, didn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace. The thought occurred to me: 'What is the cause, what is the reason, why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'I haven't seen the drawback of sensual pleasures; I haven't pursued [that theme]. I haven't understood the reward of renunciation; I haven't familiarized myself with it. That's why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace.' [1] "Then the thought occurred to me: 'If, having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I were to pursue that theme; and if, having understood the reward of renunciation, I were to familiarize myself with it, there's the possibility that my heart would leap up at renunciation, grow confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace.' "So at a later time, having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of renunciation, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at renunciation, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. Then, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.041.than.html#ren unciation Notice how #4,#5 and before #6, aspects of step-by-step talk fit in... Best Wishes, Alex #88769 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 5:58 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,288-290 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 288. [(iii Cause and Fruit] Again, it should be understood thus: (1) It has three links with cause, fruit, cause As first parts; and (2) four different sections; (3) Its spokes are twenty qualities; (4) With triple round it spins for ever. 289. 1. Herein, between formations and rebirth-linking consciousness there is one link consisting of cause-fruit. Between feeling and craving there is one link consisting of fruit-cause. And between becoming and birth there is one link consisting of cause-fruit. This is how it should be understood that 'it has three links with cause, fruit, cause, as parts'. 290. 2. But there are four sections, which are determined by the beginnings and ends of the links, that is to say, ignorance/formations is one section; consciousness/ mentality-materiality/sixfold base/ contact/feeling is the second; craving/clinging/becoming is the third; and birth/ageing-and-death is the fourth. This is how it should be understood to have 'four different sections'. ********************** 288. puna , ``hetuphalahetupubbaka-tisandhicatubhedasa"ngaha~nceta.m. viisati aakaaraara.m, tiva.t.tamanava.t.thita.m bhamati''.. itipi veditabba.m. 289. tattha sa"nkhaaraana~nca pa.tisandhivi~n~naa.nassa ca antaraa eko hetuphalasandhi naama. vedanaaya ca ta.nhaaya ca antaraa eko phalahetusandhi naama. bhavassa ca jaatiyaa ca antaraa eko hetuphalasandhiiti evamida.m hetuphalahetupubbakatisandhiiti veditabba.m. 290. sandhiina.m aadipariyosaanavavatthitaa panassa cattaaro sa"ngahaa honti. seyyathida.m. avijjaasa"nkhaaraa eko sa"ngaho. vi~n~naa.nanaamaruupasa.laayatanaphassavedanaa dutiyo. ta.nhupaadaanabhavaa tatiyo. jaatijaraamara.na.m catutthoti. evamida.m catubhedasa"ngahanti veditabba.m. #88770 From: "connie" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 7:06 pm Subject: Subject: Vism.XVII,288-290 nichiconn Path of Purity, pp.697-8 [579] Again it should be understood that, The thrice-knit cause, condition and effect, The forming of four groups, the round of three, The spokes of twenty modes: - this wheel of life, Keeps rolling on and on without a break. Here, the interval between the activities and rebirth-consciousness is called once-knit condition and effect; the interval between feeling and craving is known as once-knit effect and condition; the interval between becoming and birth is once-knit condition and effect. Thus, "The thrice-knit cause, condition and effect" is to be understood. (The forming of four groups.) There are four groups of the unions determined by the beginning and the end, namely: ignorance and activities form one group; consciousness, name-and-form, sixfold sense, contact, feeling, the second group; craving, grasping, becoming the third; birth, old age and death the fourth. Thus, "the forming of four groups" is to be understood. #88771 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 7:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta sukinderpal Hi Howard (and Jon), You wrote: Craving for awakening and release is based in sense of self. As you say, "motivated by craving or conceit." The prisoner's craving for escape is self-oriented. Prince Gotama's desire also was. So is ours. We start where we are, not where we hope to be. S: Sometime ago I suggested, I think to you, something to the effect, that since it is only with the help of the Dhamma that we ever come to know where we are we at, to state that we “start where are” must refer to a moment of Right Understanding. In which case shouldn’t we be careful not to end up justifying any action through body, speech or mind which might be rooted in akusala? To accept the fact of craving, conceit and wrong view existing as tendency and arising often even with regard to Dhamma, this may be an instance of right understanding. However to justify certain behavior using this fact as excuse, would this be right understanding too? I don’t think so. Akusala of all levels arising in daily life is acceptable in so far that there is the understanding each time it does, that this is due to conditions and that it has already fallen away. In fact, such understanding is kusala and a necessary part of the development of understanding. But insisting on following an activity, especially when this is in the name of Dhamma practice, and saying that it is OK to do it with craving, conceit and wrong view, this is going against the Teachings and can never lead to any good, can it? Seeing harm in defilements is due to panna and this is right motivation to develop kusala. Could it not be that the Bodhisatta was motivated by this kind of understanding and that the still existing wrong view did not arise at anytime? Metta, Sukin #88772 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 7:40 pm Subject: Re: Sila Always Comes First ! Graduated Talk indriyabala Dear Alex (Sarah, Jon, Nina, Connie), - Thank you again for the sutta quotes that support the sequential, layer-by-layer, step-by-step teaching of the Greatest Teacher (Buddha). In Ud 5.03 the Buddha turned Suppabuddha the leper into a Sotapanna by first teaching him about dana, sila (virtue), law of kamma (hell or heaven destination, due to vipaka of good and bad kammas), before the "drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation". Next, after seeing that Suppabuddha's mind was ready, "he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path". >Alex: >Question: >1)Who here knows a better step by step talk than the Buddha's? >2) Where do Paramattha Dhammas fit in? Talk about Heaven & Virtue isn't exactly a "paramattha material". T: Never underestimate the paramattha-dhamma knowledge of our Anagamin and Arahant friends here, Alex. They can easily turn around your questions into 'exactly paramattha material' anytime, again and again. I have learned the lesson: You'll never win. So stop trying. ;-) Thanks for the sutta quotes, Alex. Tep === #88773 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 8:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma question: What is the difference between these: ? lbidd2 Hi Alex, Alex: "a) Citta rooted in Greed & lobha cetasika?" Larry: Lobha cetasika is greed, so citta rooted in greed is citta rooted in lobha cetasika. Consciousness experiences an object and the cetasikas are various ways it does that. For example, taste consciousness could experience a cookie greedily. A: "b) Tranquility of Mind Vs Tranquility of Mental factors? (citta vs kaya passadhi) L: Cool and calm consciousness vs. cool and calm cetasikas. Here "cool and calm" with respect to cetasikas is a sub-category of cetasika since "cool and calm" is itself a cetasika. For example, in insight taste is experienced with cool and calm and insight itself is cool and calm. There's no "Gotcha!". "Mental body" refers to the cetasikas as a coordinated group of functions. A: "c) Ekaggata vs Vitakka d) Ekaggata Vs Vicara" Larry: Vitakka is inquiry and vicara is reasoning. Ekagatta brings everything together. For example, a nice cup of tea with pleasant associations might be the object of desire accompanied by some attendant scheming (vitakka and vicara). Ekaggata brings the feeling, perception, and choices together with the object of consciousness into one package. One might speculate that it plays a major role in the formation of a "compact whole". Larry #88774 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 9:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Self as Island & Refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Swee Boon, Scott & all) --- On Sat, 2/8/08, Tep wrote: "By effort, earnestness and self-control Let the wise man make for himself an island Which no flood can overwhelm." Dhp 25 "Be ye islands unto yourselves, be ye a refuge unto yourselves! Take no other refuge! The Dhamma be your island, the Dhamma be your refuge; Take no other refuge!" DN 16, Maha-parinibbana- sutta ............ .. >Tep: If there is no self, can there be a refuge for the monks? If there is a self, can the refuge be grasped as mine? ............ ... ================== S: I think Swee Boon & Scott already gave very helpful responses. I'd also like to re-post a couple of earlier messages on this topic. In the first one, Phil asked a similar question. In the second one, Jim confirms that 'lamp' would definitely be a mis-translation. 1) Sarah: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/59004 --- Phil wrote: > Could someone clarify for me what the "rely on yourself" in the kalama sutta refers to? ... S: I think it's a summary of what we read throughout the teachings. In the Kalama sutta (Thanissaro transl), it says: "Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' � then you should enter & remain in them." .... S: Only direct awareness and understanding can do the job. This is also summarised in some of the Buddha's last words in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (Sister Vajira/F.Story transl,BPS): " 'Therefore, Aananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges under yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge." Commentary notes (Yang-Gyu An transl, PTS): "You should live, making yourself an island, a basis, like an island in the great ocean. You should turn to yourself, not to others. (cf. Dhp. 160, 276). ..... Back to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta again: " 'Now, O bhikkhus, I say to you that these teachings of which I have direct knowledge and which I have made known to you - these you should thoroughly learn, cultivate, develop and frequently practise that the life of purity may be established and may long endure.........And what, bhikkhus, are these teachings? They are the four foundations of mindfulness, the four right efforts, the four constituents of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven factors of enlightenment, and the Noble Eightfold Path." Commentary note (Yang Gyu An transl again): " 'Namely, the holy life (life of purity)', this holy life in the teaching, consisting of the triad of trainings.....'The four foundations of mindfulness (cattaaro satipa.t.thaana) and so forth: All is expounded as mundane and supramundane. The definitive view of these factors conducive to enlightenment is stated in every way in the ~Naa.na-dassana-visuddhi-niddesa of the Visuddhimagga (Vism. 678-81). The rest of this is clear." ..... S: Teachers, including the Buddha, can only point the way. It is the (direct) understanding of the Teachings themselves (as contained in the Ti-pitaka), the understanding of satipatthana and so on, which is the only refuge.< end earlier post> ***** 2) Jim A: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/4458 >The source of the confusion is the homonym 'diipa' which represents two etymologically distinct words. One has the meaning of 'lamp' (Skt. diipa) and the other one has the meaning of 'island' (Skt. dviipa). The commentary (a.t.thakathaa) confirms 'island' while 'lamp' is simply a mistranslation in the passage. The commentary reading is: attadiipaa ti mahaasamuddagata.m diipa.m viya attaana.m diipa.m pati.t.tha.m katvaa viharatha. 'attadiipa': after making yourself an island (as) support like an island situated in the great ocean, abide. (a rough literal translation) 'Island' is a metaphor for 'support' (pati.t.thaa). I'm not familiar with what type of compound 'attadiipaa' really is and it looks quite peculiar to me. The word seems to be referring to the individuals addressed and is hard to translate literally. The subcommentary (.tiikaa) also seems to be interpreting 'atta' (?oneself) in a way not familiar to me. There is a shift from atta to dhamma in the second phrasing (dhammadiipa . . .) as if atta and dhamma were interchangeable (it's all very unclear to me).< end Jim's reply> ***** New S: Apologies for re-posting many old replies - as I don't have any books with me, it's easier! Swee Boon, I'm glad to see you are following the threads:-). Metta, Sarah ========= #88775 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 10:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Each presently arisen state sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Phil), --- On Tue, 5/8/08, upasaka@... wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, "Phil" wrote: >> Yes, you're right, there is in fact no "seeing a tree." However, > hard for me now to fathom any form of awareness that is closer to the > truth than seeing a tree -- i.e hard to fathom awareness of visible > object as visible object...but not to worry about that! It is the > deep truth, good to ponder on it without expectations of awareness of > it, in my opinion. So actually not "hard", just beyond me, and that's > fine... .... >S: And this is definitely the way....the appreciation that it is only visible object that's seen and that it is the deep truth. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- >Howard: It's a tiny piece of the truth. Radically more fundamental as regards being "the way" is coming to truly and directly know that whatever arises ceases, is not a source of genuine satisfaction - even conditioning distress if attached to, and is impersonal and without self-existence throughout its brief and fragile presence. Through this wisdom, by walking through this door, nibbana is reached. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------ S: Your comments to Phil before were useful and so is this comment too. However, the point is that if there is not the direct understanding of visible object as being that which is seen and seeing consciousness being the experience of what is seen, there will never be the deeper understanding which directly knows the conditioned nature of dhammas, the arising and falling away of those dhammas (one at a time) or the true penetration of the 4NT. ..... S:> Also, as you suggest, it's useless to have expectations about the development of awareness. Yes, as we all repeat, you're praising the Buddha's wisdom when you stress the difficulty. Awareness too is anatta and beyond control, but as the right 'theory' grows (as here), so does awareness, little by little. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -------- >Howard: To the extent that encountering the Dhamma (and contemplating it) conditions the growth of wisdom, that studying and considering constitutes "control." All that control is is a body of intentional actions, a.k.a. kamma, that, together, condition intended consequences. Of course, kamma alone is far from all-determining. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------- S: The growth of wisdom develops by natural decisive support condition, not by kamma condition. Hearing (or seeing) the sounds (the visible objects) is the result of kamma, but the studying and considering occur because of the accumulations for such. I wouldn't refer to this as 'control' - sankhara dhammas. It's true that each citta is accompanied by cetana, however and even kamma is accumulated by nat. decisive support condition too. I know we have a slightly different 'take' on this, Howard. No need to pursue it unless you'd like to. Metta, Sarah p.s I like your new signature quote! Any reason for the change? ======== #88776 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Alex Was Wrong About Ekaggataa Re: Concentration with every citta sarahprocter... Dear Tep, Suan & all, Thanks for your discussions and sharing of suttas. --- On Wed, 6/8/08, abhidhammika wrote: >Sammaa Sati leads to Sammaa samaadhi. >Here is the Buddha's explanation - from Section 1, Avijjaasuttam, Mahaavaggo, Samyuttanikaayo. . >"sammaavaayaamassa sammaasati pahoti; sammaasatissa sammaasamaadhi pahotii"ti. >To one who makes the Right Effort, the Right Recollection happens. To one who develops the Right Recollection, the Right Concentration happens. ******* Sarah: I was interested to look at the (full) sutta and share it here (with no further comment) for anyone else who cares to look at it: (English): http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta5/44-Magga-S\ amyutta/01-Avijjavaggo-e.html (Pali): http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta5/44-Magga-S\ amyutta/01-Avijjavaggo-p.html 44. 1. 1 "(1) Avijjaa Ignorance 1. I heard thus. At one time the Blessed One lived in the monastery offered by Anathapindika in Jeta's Grove in Saavatthi. 2. From there the Blessed One addressed the monks and those monks responded pleasantly and the Blessed One said: 3. "Monks, ignorance precedes demerit, followed by lack of shame and remorse. Monks, to the ignorant not seeing one, wrong view arises. To one with wrong view wrong thoughts arise, to one with wrong thoughts wrong speech, to one with wrong speech wrong action, to one with wrong action wrong livelihood, to one with wrong livelihood wrong endeavor, to one with wrong endeavor wrong establishment of mindfulness and to one with wrong establishment of mindfulness wrong concentration arises. 4. "Monks, knowledge precedes merit, followed by shame and remorse. Monks, to the knowing, seeing one, right view arises. To one with right view right thoughts arise, to one with right thoughts right speech, to one with right speech right action, to one with right action right livelihood, to one with right livelihood right endeavor, to one with right endeavor right establishment of mindfulness and to one with right establishment of mindfulness right concentration arises." ***** Metta, Sarah ======== #88777 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 10:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati -> Samadhi Anapanasati sarahprocter... Hi Tep (Alex & all), --- On Wed, 6/8/08, Tep wrote: >BTW why does "atta-clinging" (attavadupadana? ) hang on to the entry to Arahantship? .... S: Attavadupadana, along with all other kinds of wrong view, is eradicated at the stage of sotapatti-magga. .... >How can it be so tough, if our worldling-friends Sarah and Jon already can see not-self and no-self in all dhammas at the present moment? .... S: !! Friends and people don't see anything. Panna does the tough work, gradually understanding dhammas as anatta. As I was discussing with Phil & Howard, the appreciation that it is only visible object that's seen is the start. Only one reality is ever experienced at a time, hence life really does exist in a moment - this moment! By getting more and more used to the realities of daily life, panna develops. Metta, Sarah ========= #88778 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 10:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cremation sarahprocter... Hi Herman, (Nina & all), --- On Mon, 4/8/08, Herman Hofman wrote: >>N: I just finished typing Sri Lanka and want to quote your words: > < At the airport Sarah reminded me that when we think of the people > we are attached to and of the country we like, we think of concepts > and we tend to be upset. But if we realize that life exists in only > one moment of experiencing and that this moment falls away > immediately, we have more understanding of reality. ... H:> In the meantime, I would like to point out the differerence between being mindful and being lost in thought. If we are aware of a moment, we are lost in thinking. There are no moments, there is no moment. .... S: No one has suggested there can be awareness 'of a moment'. That is a misunderstanding of the comment above. The point that Nina kindly repeated me as having said was that there is only ever one world, one citta through one door-way arising at a time. When there is an understanding of this (at any level), we are not lost in thought about all the usual concerns and stories. ..... H:> What there is, and that will be clear to anyone who is mindful, is this something followed by that something, this specific something followed by that specific something. ... S: What is 'this something' and 'that something'? Why is this mindfulness and not thinking? .... H:> This happens endlessly, but there may not be awareness of it. When we are not aware of this specific thing being followed by that specific thing we are likely to be lost in thinking. .... S: I'd say that whenever there are ideas of specific things following other specific things, it is thinking. What 'specific thing' appears now? ..... Sarah said: > "Sri Lanka and all the people we are attached to, all the last five > weeks, it is all in just one moment now, one thought now, and then > gone." > > Life exists in only one moment, the present moment.> .... H:> The present reality, of which we can be aware, is that this is followed by that. "Sri Lanka", "people", "airport", "five weeks", they are all useful words when they are applied accurately to communicate to others the patterns of awareness that are our lives. .... S: Or 'patterns of thinking that are our lives', usually in ignorance. "One thought now, and then gone." Thanks for the feedback and to Nina for her other kind comments. Metta, Sarah ========== #88779 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Scholasticism, practice, mindfulness, and all that. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Sun, 3/8/08, Alex wrote: >S: While there is a strong trying or urging to have 'Super mindfulness' >and a focus on the movements of the feet (or any other object), no >understanding will develop. Instead, attachment, craving for >results, for 'me' will be developing. > ... ... A:>No wonder people may fail to obtain the results if they believe that walking meditation is simply a focus on the feet. [expletatives wisely restrained]. .... S: I'm glad to see you're showing some restraint of speech:). From your earlier message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/88379 "As I understand it, the awareness must be ultra sharp. .... For example in a long retreat that I had, sometimes I noticed a "machine gun like" broken movements of the foot. Can one notice the same with mind states? Super mindfulness is required for that, and long retreats may be required for most of us, as ordinary mindfulness is too blunt and slow." ..... A:> Here is the hint: To start with one learns to see the 4 elements, not to mention kayagatasati aspect. Also one notices the mind and interaction between the two, nama & rupa (that is one of the vipassana nanas). Causality can be seen as well, another vipassana nana. Anicca -> Dukkha -> Anatta and many other nanas can be achieved as well... .... S: Sounds like you've been reading the Mahasi manuals and ticking off the nanas during your meditation practice. You referred before (in jest, of course) to teaching anatta to well-known meditation teachers and the Buddha. Of course, the Buddha taught and teaches us all about dhammas as anatta. You can find out for yourself whether the instructions you follow are an understanding of present dhammas as anatta or not. .... A:> "focusing on the movements of the feet"... When people say that, is there any doubt as why their meditation fails? .... S: Focussing on anything, starting with anything will lead to meditation failure. What appears now does so by conditions, not by any intention or wish to have it arise. .... A:> I DO LOVE THE VsM quote about the punisher and the offences. I gonna save it as it is so awesome. Thanks for providing it. Does VsM have lots of such quotes? They are quite descriptive and vivid. .... S: Thanks for saying this. Yes, it's full of awesome quotes and metaphors. Get yourself a copy and join in any of the Vism threads too. Metta, Sarah ========== #88780 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 11:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just studying... sarahprocter... Hi Alex, (Han & all), [in response to the extract about the snake simile and reading suttas, IN A SUTTA!] --- On Sun, 3/8/08, Alex wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, sarah abbott wrote: > "the prose sections, prose and verse sections, the answers and >explanation expositions, stanzas, solemn utterances, thus said >sections, birth stories, wonderful things, a series of questions and >answers. > Sarah > ========== A:> Thank you very much for the reminder (not to argue). >However I've just checked my original post, it questioned the necessity of studying AB not to misinterpret suttas. I guess I have cut out too much of the original post so that you've misunderstood what I was questioning. .... S: No problem, I knew you'd do a Houdini (contortionist act) to wriggle out....:-) .... A:> Regarding the list of teachings, it DOES NOT directly say that Abh was taught. If it did, then it would probably be accepted by other early Nikaya Schools (such as Sarvastivadins, later Sautrantikas and other) just like the suttas were. The above classification of Buddhist teachings was later (although it may have been used when Buddha was still alive). .... S: Here's a chance for another Houdini: The above classification of Buddhist teachings appears in Anguttara Nikaya too. Lots of detail has been given before (see 'Abhidhamma - origins' and 'Abhidhamma vs Suttanta - 9 parts' in U.P.) .... A:> In MN122 the classification is shorter; sutta, geyya, and vayakarana. Most suttas fall withing the Vayakarana categories, some contain (geyya) verses as well, and not that many "suttas" of sutta pitaka are suttas. .... S: Again, see above and re-quote when you come across a helpful past post:-). .... A:> On a different topic: I would like to add, that I would LOVE it if Abhidhamma study alone could bring one to Arahatship. I'd be one of those guys to try to memorize CMA by heart and could stick the pin through the book and know on which word the pin ends... I've heard of such people (although not Buddhists). I've also heard of Buddhist monks who have memorized Abh and such by heart. Not sure if they are Arahants, though.... Anyone knows or has anything to add on this matter? .... S: If anyone has the idea that "Abhidhamma study alone could bring one to Arahatship" and that the memorizing of CMA and Abhidhamma texts is the way to enlightenment, this would be a great example of how NOT to study the Abhidhamma as given in the snake simile. Yes, even today, bhikkhus (such as in Myanmar) have memorized Abh. by heart. Like with anything else, this can be with right or wrong view, by natural inclination and habit (usually as a bhikkhu) or by wrongly approaching the snake. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/39370 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41007 Han may be able to add more. Metta, Sarah ========== #88781 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 11:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Channa took his life faultlessly sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, --- On Sun, 3/8/08, Alex wrote: >>A: - Here the Buddha has said that Bhikkhu Channa was an Arahant , ie > faultless WHILE CHANNA WAS ALIVE. > .... > S: Yes, he died faultlessly, having become an arahat in his final >moments, AFTER having used the knife. Many moments, many different >cittas. This is where the Abhidhamma helps. ... A:>He must have been quick, as when the neck is cut (especially if it is the sleeping artery, his probable aim), the fainting and blacking out occurs pretty rapidly. .... S: You've read the sutta about the speed of the mind and how nothing compares with the speed of such cittas. In an earlier message (#29088), I wrote: >S:There is a debate in the Kathavatthu on the duration of consciousness. The Andhakas are said to believe in the "apparent continuity both of consciousness in Jhana and of sub-consciousness, a single state of consciousness lasted for a length of time." It quotes AN i.10 : "I consider, bhikkhus, that there is no phenomenon that comes and goes so quickly as mind. It is not easy to find a simile to show how quickly mind comes and goes." Also SN ii.95 "Just as a monkey faring through the dense forest catches one bough, and, letting it go, catches another, and then another, even so bhikkhus, with what is called thought, or mind , or consciousness, by day as by night, one arises when another perishes."< .... A:> If we admit the interrebirth state (it is in the suttas), then I can concede that he may have had time THERE to become an Arahant. .... S: Now you're opening up another can of dead worms. See 'Intermediate States' in U.P. If we understand that there are really only cittas, cetasikas and rupas (apart from nibbana), it will become obvious why there cannot be any 'interrebirth state'. Cuti cittas have to be followed by patisandhi cittas. .... > S: It wasn't. The intention and act of taking his life was faulty. >Subsequently, unknown to those without the Buddha's omniscience, he >attained all paths and died faultlessly, i.e with no future rebirth. > ... A:> There are other possible motivations to take one's life. Maybe it was to take off the burden from the monks who may wanted to help Channa. Or maybe it was Channa's built-in reflex from pujjhana days. Or some kamma-vipaka ripening as with monks in a certain sutta. .... S: It's quite true as you suggest, that 'suicide' is a concept, a situation consisting of many, many different cittas - moments of vipaka as well as akusala and possibly kusala intentions interspersed. Like now, only right understanding can truly know the motives from moment to moment. The (kamma) vipaka would be moments of painful bodily feeling for example, not any angst on account of them. [We can discuss the monks in the certain sutta another time or see 'suicide' in U.P. for more]. .... A:> Buddha himself could have prolonged his life, but didn't, even though he gave hints to Ananda so that Ananda would beg Buddha to do it. ... S: No one, not even the Buddha can prolong life when it's time for kamma to bring its result. Like seeing or hearing now, who can prevent them from arising? The Buddha understood all conditions. He understood what the result would have been if Ananda had spoken, but that too was conditioned. .... A:> But since Ananda (due to Mara) didn't catch the hint, Buddha has released his will to live for more than few month. Here we have a Buddha himself doing what *may* be considered a form of passive suicide. .... S: I wouldn't refer to it as a 'passive suicide'. Time for kamma to bring its result, that's all. .... A:....Lets say that 80 year old Bob can live for 20+ more years by taking his medicine if his friend, Jack, begs him to live . Jack doesn't catch the hint and so Bob stops taking a drug (which would be easily obtainable) and dies 3 month later. Isn't this a form of passive suicide? .... S: Different cittas, but I wouldn't refer to it as a deliberate taking of life as in Channa's case. Again, we need to tread carefully when discussing 'situations' as opposed to dhammas. .... > > S: You're saying that Channa was overwhelmed by his suffering and > >took his life as an arahat. A:> Could it have been a Kamma-Vipaka ripening? .... S: As I said above, the (Kamma) vipaka refers to the painful bodily cittas and feelings. The sense of being overwhelmed and intention to take life are not vipaka. .... A:"> Of course suicide is bad and should NEVER be condoned. Hopefully this will make it clear. There was a time when he gave the asubha practice, went to the retreat and came back learning that they became so disgusted and overdid the practice so much, that they started killing each other off commiting suicide and hiring a sham ascetic to kill by almost dozen daily. You may say, quoting the commentaries, something about their evil kamma ripening. .... S: Yes and more....again, only a Buddha could really understand what would be the helpful object for reflection at such time. He knew what would happen and the asubha was to condition calm and wise reflection before death. .... Here are few questions: 1) Can kamma-vipaka cause pujjhana on to commit suicide? .... S: It can be a condition for it. It cannot be the cause. This is why the one who has no more attachment to sense-objects could never commit suicide. .... 2) Can kamma-vipaka cause sekha to commit suicide? .... S: I haven't read of any examples. We read about Anathapindika's daughter, Sumana, wasting away and dying as a result of grief (a broken heart). You might call it 'passive suicide' when someone through grief no longer eats. But there isn't the intention to take one's life. Just conditions not to eat and take nourishment. She was a sakadagami. ......... A:> I don't want to discuss this topic much further, but please answer the above two questions. .... S: Thanks for the good discussion and good questions. Yes, I'd also be happy to let it rest a while. I hope you see how the Abhidhamma and Suttanta (and Vinaya, for that matter) all come together in a reading of a sutta such as this one on Ven Channa. Metta, Sarah ======== #88782 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 11:53 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 4, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, We are not master of seeing, seeing does not belong to us. Seeing can arise only when there are the right conditions for it. Eyesense is a condition for seeing. If there is no eye-consciousness, seeing cannot arise. Are we master of our eyesense? Did we create our eyesense? Visible object is another condition for seeing. When there is no visible object there cannot be seeing. All phenomena in ourselves and around ourselves can arise only when there are the appropriate conditions for their arising. Without there being the right conditions they cannot arise.We cannot control phenomena. Do we think that we are master of our mind and of our body? Can we prevent them from changing all the time? What we take for mind are only mental phenomena which arise because of conditions and fall away immediately. What we take for body are only different bodily phenomena which arise because of conditions and fall away again. What we call “life”or “the world” are only mental phenomena, nåma, phenomena that can experience objects, and physical phenomena, rúpa, phenomena that cannot experience any object. Seeing is a mental phenomenon, it experiences visible object. Feeling is a mental phenomenon, it feels. Visible object is a physical phenomenon, it cannot experience any object. Someone asked whether one cannot call nåma “subject” and rúpa “object”. Nåma can also be an object that is experienced. Nåma can experience both nåma and rúpa. Nåma can experience another nåma. For instance, can attachment or feeling which are nåmas not be noticed by another nåma? Thus, the terms “subject” and “object” cannot be of any use to understand nåma and rúpa. It may seem complicated to classify all the phenomena within ourselves and around ourselves as nåma and rúpa. But is this actually not more simple than all the different names and values we attach in conventional language to these phenomena? “Satipatthåna, mindfulness of nåma and rúpa ‘uncomplicates’’ our life”, Phra Dhammadhara said. We try to build up a synthetic vision of Buddhism, “our vision”. We try to fit our own philosophy or the scientific terms we have learnt into Buddhism. Don’t we try to make Buddhism into something which matches our view of life and “our world”? Why don’t we forget for a moment all we have learnt, all these thoughts, and study through direct experience any reality which appears now? Only in that way can we verify what is real. ******* Nina. #88783 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 11:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stream enterer endowed with N8P (which includes Jhana) egberdina Hi Tep, 2008/8/6 Tep : > Hi Herman (Sarah, Alex, ..), - > > T:It is abundantly clear, isn't it, that promoters of a methodology, > a "new" way of life, or anything that is of interest to them, are > concerned only with what they want to promote? Sometimes, > commentators are not much different than promoters. > > T: So it is up to the public to be wise enough to ignore what is not > true or not useful or promotional item, and adopt only the test- > proven Teachings of Buddhas. > I agree with you entirely. And I believe that taken as a whole, dsg discussions would be a healthy source from which a balanced perspective may follow. An open-minded newcomer to this site will soon realise that there is no general agreement on many points, and that it will always remain incumbent on the individual to realise things for themselves. And we can only reinforce that by continuing to question, as opposed to blindly reciting some dogma we may cling to. Given that, a vote of thanks must go to Jon and Sarah (or the other way around; I'll let them work out who wears the pants :-)) for allowing polite and/or critical discussions (sometimes very critical, but still polite) to take place here. It is a credit to their understanding of the Dhamma, that nothing anybody can say or do, is seen as threatening to the Dhamma. (I won't mention other sites by name here, but believe me, from some of them you would think that the moderators believe the Dhamma depends on them). It is always good to discuss with you, Tep Cheers Herman #88784 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 7, 2008 12:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila Always Comes First ! Graduated Talk nilovg Hi Alex, note: having seen. What is that seeing? Understanding. Op 7-aug-2008, om 2:55 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > So at a later time, having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I > pursued that theme; having understood the reward of renunciation, I > familiarized myself with it. --------- A: Here is a talk leading to Stream Entry: ânupubbî-kathâ: step by step teaching 1) Generosity (dâna) 2) Virtue (sîla) 3) Heaven (sagga) 4) Danger &Drawback of sensual pleasure (kâmânaṃ âdînava) 5) Renunciation (nekkhamma) --------- N: Exactly. Did you study the perfections, paramis? They are to be developed together with satipatthaana. All good qualities and deeds through body, speech and mind are included in these. Siila is very important, nobody denies the importance of siila. Watch out for the Sangiitisutta, in the Co. there are many descriptions of gentle, kind speech which is urbane, going to the heart. ****** Nina. #88785 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 7, 2008 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma question: What is the difference between these: ? nilovg Hi Alex, Op 6-aug-2008, om 23:16 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Can someone please explain what is the difference between: > a) Citta rooted in Greed & lobha cetasika? -------- N: Citta rooted in Greed, lobha-muulacitta. This is akusala citta with the roots of lobha and moha, ignorance. These roots are cetasikas that accompany this akusala citta. Citta and cetasikas arise together, have the same physical base, experience the same object and fall away together. While they arise together they each perform different functions. Citta is the principal in knowing an object, and lobha has the characteristic of clinging to the object. -------- > > b) Tranquility of Mind Vs Tranquility of Mental factors? (citta vs > kaya > passadhi) -------- N: Kaya means here the mental body, cetasikas. Citta passaddhi condiitons the citta to be calm and kaya passaddhi conditions the accompanying cetasikas to be calm. These two factors arise with each kusala citta, also with daana. But here the characteristic of calm is not so obvious, since sense-objects are experienced while giving. -------- > > A: c) Ekaggata vs Vitakka > d) Ekaggata Vs Vicara -------- N: These are different cetasikas. They are also jhaanafactors, developed in jhaana. As calm grows, the coarser factors are abandoned first, such as vitakka and then vicaara. The meditator does not need them in order to become calm with the meditation subject. Ekaggata or concentration that is developed is the factor that remains when the highest stage of jhaana is reached. Nina. #88786 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Aug 7, 2008 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Be a special person egberdina Hi Ludwig, 2008/8/6 szmicio : > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Ajahn Sujin wrote on her book that, studying, considering and appling > Dhamma in life shouldn't be motivated by trying to become something > special, but that's thinking about MY understanding, MY Dhamma is > present most the day. Why are you reading A Sujin's book? If you knew you had 1/2 hour left to live, would you still read A Sujin's book? How long do you think you've actually got :-) > But now i've notice that to do nothing is much more benficial than > doing anything on account having more understanding or more sati. When reading A Sujin's book, that is what you are doing. Some here are very advanced and they can actually read books without doing it. But I think such skill will take many aeons to accumulate :-). Nice talking to you, Mattroke Cheers Herman #88787 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 11:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 8/6/2008 10:35:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@... writes: Hi Howard (and Jon), You wrote: Craving for awakening and release is based in sense of self. As you say, "motivated by craving or conceit." The prisoner's craving for escape is self-oriented. Prince Gotama's desire also was. So is ours. We start where we are, not where we hope to be. S: Sometime ago I suggested, I think to you, something to the effect, that since it is only with the help of the Dhamma that we ever come to know where we are we at, to state that we “start where areâ€? must refer to a moment of Right Understanding. In which case shouldn’t we be careful not to end up justifying any action through body, speech or mind which might be rooted in akusala? To accept the fact of craving, conceit and wrong view existing as tendency and arising often even with regard to Dhamma, this may be an instance of right understanding. However to justify certain behavior using this fact as excuse, would this be right understanding too? I don’t think so. Akusala of all levels arising in daily life is acceptable in so far that there is the understanding each time it does, that this is due to conditions and that it has already fallen away. In fact, such understanding is kusala and a necessary part of the development of understanding. But insisting on following an activity, especially when this is in the name of Dhamma practice, and saying that it is OK to do it with craving, conceit and wrong view, this is going against the Teachings and can never lead to any good, can it? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think you are confused on this matter, Sukin. I suggest realizing the way things are and not engaging in pretense, but not at all being satisfied with the way things are. We desire the end of desire, and thank goodness for that! It is through craving that we can put an end to craving. the Buddha did teach that. He did not, however, teach that we should pretend that we do not crave and that we do not suffer. ------------------------------------------------- Seeing harm in defilements is due to panna and this is right motivation to develop kusala. Could it not be that the Bodhisatta was motivated by this kind of understanding and that the still existing wrong view did not arise at anytime? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: If you wish to think that craving didn't arise in Gotama in his forceful and dramatic efforts to rid himself of the craving that is the source of suffereing, so be it. I see it as contrary to reality. --------------------------------------------------- Metta, Sukin =========================== With metta, Howard /Seekers, when ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen in an aspirant, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge she or he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no longer clings to a doctrine of self. When that one does not cling, he or she is not agitated. When not agitated, that one attains Nibbana and understands: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being'/ (From the Cula-Sihanada Sutta) #88788 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 11:38 pm Subject: To Jon (Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/7/2008 6:35:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka writes: Hi, Sukin - ========================== Jon, I forgot to include you in the salutation of my last post to Sukin - an oversight. I apologize. With metta, Howard #88789 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Aug 7, 2008 4:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Be a special person szmicio --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Ludwig, Hi Herman, My name is Lukas ;> > 2008/8/6 szmicio : > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > Ajahn Sujin wrote on her book that, studying, considering and appling > > Dhamma in life shouldn't be motivated by trying to become something > > special, but that's thinking about MY understanding, MY Dhamma is > > present most the day. > > Why are you reading A Sujin's book? If you knew you had 1/2 hour left > to live, would you still read A Sujin's book? How long do you think > you've actually got :-) L: I think there is no choice. > > But now i've notice that to do nothing is much more benficial than > > doing anything on account having more understanding or more sati. > > When reading A Sujin's book, that is what you are doing. Some here are > very advanced and they can actually read books without doing it. But I > think such skill will take many aeons to accumulate :-). L: I am aware, reading is just reading. But Lord Buddha said that hearing Dhamma and yoniso manasikara can condition right understanding. I have no other oportunity to develop right understandnig. There was a time in my life, I've sit 10 hours a day, but there wasn't right understanding. bye Lukas #88790 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Aug 7, 2008 5:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Be a special person egberdina Hi Lukas, 2008/8/7 szmicio : > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: >> > > L: I am aware, reading is just reading. But Lord Buddha said that > hearing Dhamma and yoniso manasikara can condition right > understanding. I have no other oportunity to develop right > understandnig. There was a time in my life, I've sit 10 hours a day, > but there wasn't right understanding. > Yes, but reading A Sujin's book is not hearing Dhamma, is it? If you send me your postal address off-list, I will send you a telephone book. Reading it will better allow you to understand the difference between seeing and craving (for understanding in your case). Cheers Herman #88791 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Aug 7, 2008 6:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sila Always Comes First ! Graduated Talk truth_aerator Hi Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Alex, > note: having seen. What is that seeing? Understanding. > Please explain. Here the understanding isn't in terms of fleeting mind moments, but in macro-world issues. Aging, death, illnesses, impermanence, danger, punishments, etc. > Op 7-aug-2008, om 2:55 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > So at a later time, having seen the drawback of sensual >pleasures, I > > pursued that theme; having understood the reward of renunciation, >I > > familiarized myself with it. > --------- > A: Here is a talk leading to Stream Entry: > ânupubbî-kathâ: step by step teaching > 1) Generosity (dâna) > 2) Virtue (sîla) > 3) Heaven (sagga) > 4) Danger &Drawback of sensual pleasure (kâmânaṃ âdînava) > 5) Renunciation (nekkhamma) > --------- > N: Exactly. Did you study the perfections, paramis? Can we talk about the 1-5 items (and then 6th one)? > They are to be > developed together with satipatthaana. All good qualities and >deeds > through body, speech and mind are included in these. Samadhi comes second (in order of training) to Sila, and Panna comes after sila & Samadhi. Best wishes, Alex #88792 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Aug 7, 2008 6:43 am Subject: Gradual Talk truth_aerator HI Sarah, Tep and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep (Alex & all), > > --- On Wed, 6/8/08, Tep wrote: > >BTW why does "atta-clinging" (attavadupadana? ) hang on to the >entry > to Arahantship? > .... > S: Attavadupadana, along with all other kinds of wrong view, is >eradicated at the stage of sotapatti-magga. > .... Sakkayaditthi is removed at stream entry. However even Anagamis have residual conceit and craving (for rupa/arupa lokas) "I am". Avijja is fully removed only at path to arahatship (or the fruit of it). The Buddha & his Arahat disciples didn't feel ANY problem talking with personal prouns: "I, you, me, other wonderers, etc". > >How can it be so tough, if our worldling-friends > Sarah and Jon already can see not-self and no-self in all dhammas >at the present moment? > .... > S: !! Friends and people don't see anything. Panna does the tough >work, gradually understanding dhammas as anatta. So does this panna that typed this, has this understanding? And if it didn't type this, then is another panna hallucinating sitting in front of this PC? > As I was discussing with Phil & Howard, the appreciation that it is >only visible object that's seen is the > start. Only one reality is ever experienced at a time, hence life really does exist in a moment - this moment! By getting more and more used to the realities of daily life, panna develops. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= What exactly did you mean by the "start"? Can you please explain how what you've said above fits with the Gradual Talk? ânupubbî-kathâ: step by step teaching 1) Generosity (dâna) 2) Virtue (sîla) 3) Heaven (sagga) 4) Danger &Drawback of sensual pleasure (kâmânaṃ âdînava) 5) Renunciation (nekkhamma) Then when the mind is ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, the 6)The Four Noble Truths (cattâri ariya-saccâni) It is quite possible that the above 5 or 6 items were covered by you and other people here, years ago. If so, can you please repost those discussions, please? Best wishes, Alex #88793 From: "connie" Date: Thu Aug 7, 2008 6:46 am Subject: Sangiitisutta Corner: DN 33 Twos (12-16) nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing from #88594 (cy: #88604, #88637, #88650). CSCD <<.thaanakusalataa ca a.t.thaanakusalataa ca. Walshe DN 33.1.9(12) 'Skill in [knowing] what are causes and what are not. [iii 213] (.thaanakusalataa ca a.t.thaanakusalataa ca.) Olds [ 2.12 ] Skill in knowledge of what supports and what does not support. RDs [ 2.12 ]Proficiency in assigning specific causes, and in eliminating elements that are not causal [in a specific effect].2.12 ***rd: 2.12The first of the 'ten powes' of a Tathaagata (M. I, 69 f.; A. V, 33 f.; Vibh. 335 f. Cf. Psalms of the Early Brethren I, p. 167, n. i; II, 7, n.i; Bud. Psy. Eth., p. 348) shared partly by disciples (Points of Controversy, 139 f.). 'Proficiency' (kusalataa) is, by B., defined as 'intelligence-with-understanding' (pa~n~naa-pajaana), further specialized in x.a as learning, remembering, grasping, intuition, in x.b as the last two plus reflection, in xi.a as learning by heart, plus the last group, in xi.b, understanding of procedure, in xii. as determining. CSCD < Date: Thu Aug 7, 2008 8:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Be a special person nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 7-aug-2008, om 13:11 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > L: I am aware, reading is just reading. But Lord Buddha said that > hearing Dhamma and yoniso manasikara can condition right > understanding. I have no other oportunity to develop right > understandnig. There was a time in my life, I've sit 10 hours a day, > but there wasn't right understanding. ------- N: I heard this morning on tape: We have to listen so that we have more understanding, and Kh Sujin repeated about four times: to have more understanding. She said: Here is a quote from Ven. Dhammadhara (from Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka): < Phra Dhammadhara remarked that we should not cling to an idea of self who is going to practise and will then attain enlightenment quickly. He said: “Then we are stuck with the idea of self. We cannot say, ‘Come on sati, come one paññå”. Are we not sometimes behaving as if we could induce them? Even if sati arises we cannot keep it, it arises and falls away. “It may be followed by excruciating doubt”, Phra Dhammadhara said. Who knows the next moment? Realities arise because of conditions and then fall away. We never know what will happen the next moment. How could we then plan to have sati and how could we plan what to be aware of?> --------- Nina. #88795 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Aug 7, 2008 8:16 am Subject: Re: No-Self, no control teaching in Vipassana & "Samatha" truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Jon, Suan, Tep and all. As I understand it, neither Vipassana Nor "Samatha" Buddhist practice teaches "there is a self". It is only ignorant worldlings who sneak in the self there. Even if we take a Samatha teaching of Ajahn Brahm, he often stresses "No self, no control, nobody reaches Jhana, Jhana is a signpost of cessation, etc etc." IN Vipassana practice, I've myself seen (only glimpses, for now) no- control things such as limbs moving by themselves. As I understand the practice, it is done WITHOUT atta-ditthi. If atta-ditthi is present while doing vipassana, then it is not vipassana but something else entirely. As I understand it, if you cling to anything during the "practice", then your not getting Awakened. But lets be clear about it, Bhavana is needed for Neyya & Padaparama induvidials - like us. Best wishes, Alex #88796 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Aug 7, 2008 8:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Be a special person szmicio Dear Nina, It is very helpful, Thank you. #88797 From: "connie" Date: Thu Aug 7, 2008 9:01 am Subject: Re: Nibbana isn't a thing. If it is a Dhamma, why not space being Dhamma? nichiconn Dear Herman, > ... those who proclaim nibbana as being an element are worthy of being ignored :-) c: I don't know what phone book you're looking in, but here are a couple entries from Connected Discourses: - SN V 7: "This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbaana: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way." - Spk: The removal of lust, etc., is a designation for the unconditioned, deathless Nibbaana element. The destruction of the taints is arahantship. The removal of lust, etc., is a name for arahantship too. peace, connie #88798 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 7, 2008 5:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Each presently arisen state upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/7/2008 1:02:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: p.s I like your new signature quote! Any reason for the change? ============================== I've added four quotes to the original, so that now I have 5 to choose among as seems befitting the subject matter of the particular post. The "impermanence one" is still my default choice. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #88799 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Aug 7, 2008 9:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma question: What is the difference between these: ? truth_aerator Hi Larry and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Alex: "a) Citta rooted in Greed & lobha cetasika?" > > Larry: Lobha cetasika is greed, so citta rooted in greed is citta >rooted > in lobha cetasika. Consciousness experiences an object and the >cetasikas > are various ways it does that. For example, taste consciousness >could > experience a cookie greedily. I can understand that citta is bare knowing, while cetasika is "how" (as in with greed or anger) it is known , I still don't fully get it how citta can have a "quality" to it. Why not say that Citta (bare knowing) + Greed Cetasika (quality, lobha, akusala, of knowing). > A: "b) Tranquility of Mind Vs Tranquility of Mental factors? (citta >vs > kaya passadhi) > > L: Cool and calm consciousness vs. cool and calm cetasikas. >Here "cool > and calm" with respect to cetasikas is a sub-category of cetasika >since > "cool and calm" is itself a cetasika. For example, in insight taste >is > experienced with cool and calm and insight itself is cool and calm. > There's no "Gotcha!". "Mental body" refers to the cetasikas as a > coordinated group of functions. > Can someone rephrase the above? Also, what is exact different between Citta & Cetasika? Again, if Citta would be "bare knowing" while cetasika is the "quality of knowing" , then it'd be more clear... But it appears to be redundant to say that Citta rooted in greed, and accompanied with greed cetasika. > A: "c) Ekaggata vs Vitakka > d) Ekaggata Vs Vicara" > > Larry: Vitakka is inquiry and vicara is reasoning. Ekagatta brings > everything together. For example, a nice cup of tea with pleasant > associations might be the object of desire accompanied by some attendant > scheming (vitakka and vicara). Ekaggata brings the feeling, perception, > and choices together with the object of consciousness into one package. > One might speculate that it plays a major role in the formation of a > "compact whole". > > Larry Thank you for this explanation. The follow up question: You say that Ekaggata is "everything together" (vit + vic). What about 2nd sutta Jhana where ekag is present but not the vit&vic? Thank you very much, Anyone else can answer those questions? Best wishes, Alex