#95800 From: "connie" Date: Mon Feb 9, 2009 12:32 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket / To Rob Ep 7 nichiconn Hi Rob Ep, R: I am just saying that when you say "The Path" it is a concept, not something that you can experience in the moment apart from an abstract thought. Do you disagree with this? The eight path factors may be seen as cetasikas, but when we talk about "The Path" we are not experiencing those factors at that time, are we? It is a concept we are talking about, one that points us in the right direction. c: What I think about "The Path" is that each moment of our lives we are - as dictated by "Our Talk" or understanding, right or wrong - walking "Our Path", right or wrong. Factors of that path must be there at the time & something that could be directly experienced apart from abstract thought, so yea, I'll disagree. A few things to consider: KS IV, VII: $6 Kaamabhuu(ii) [...] 'Inbreathing and outbreathing, housefather, is the activity of body; thought directed and sustained is the activity of speech; perception and feeling are the activity of mind.' [...] Reprasing my earlier point less politely this time: asking about the colour or hardness of things that don't have those characteristics only makes one sound, well, like they're just blowing smoke. I really don't equate reading with jhaana or anything, but then again, let's not rule out the possibility that kusala might arise during any activity. It's not about reading as a practice or anything, unless you want to think of getting acquainted with the good as practise. KS II, ch.XVI, $11 The robe [...]'Wherefore also, Kassapa, thou must train thyself: - "Whatever doctrine I shall hear, bearing upon what is good, to all that doctrine I will hearken with attentive ear, digesting it, pondering on it, gathering it all up with my will." peace, connie #95801 From: "connie" Date: Mon Feb 9, 2009 12:34 pm Subject: Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nichiconn Dear Scott, "48. Endued with lovingkindness is said again here in order to introduce the synonyms beginning with abundant. ... c: Interesting, synonyms. Just when you (I) think you understand a little, another facet catches your eye: Guide 725. (i) Herein (cf $698), as to the following ten Thread-[terms], the first way, first foundation of mindfulness, first meditation, first abiding, first right endeavour, first wonderful marvellous idea, the expression of truth, concentration of will, faculty-restraint, and lovingkindness: their meaning is one and only the phrasing is different. These are the medicine for a person of lusting temperament. Guide 698. (i) Herein (cf $742), as to the following ten Thread[-terms], physical nutriment, the perversion that there is beauty in the ugly, sensual-desire-assumption, the bond of sensual desire, the body-tie of covetousness, the taint of sensual desire, the flood of sensual desire, the barb of lust, form as steadying-point for consciousness passing on, and going a bad way through will: their meaning is one and only the phrasing is different. These are imperfections in a person of lusting temperament. peace, connie #95802 From: "colette" Date: Mon Feb 9, 2009 7:27 am Subject: Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. ksheri3 Good Morning Suan, Very good to be speaking with you this morning. Glad to see that we can carry on the discussion. One key point you made and emphasized throughout the post was that of K.Sujin's "consciousness" and her issueance of that consciousness to us. Let me take it apart: You understand K.Sujin's actual "experience" with the practice of meditation as being neglicable, if not diffitiant, and point out that she is delussional concerning the practice of meditation. This includes the limitless amount of information concerning the un- fathomable benefits received from the actual practice of meditation. This creates her foundation for her opinions, LATENT DISPOSITIONS. This deficiency then seeds her vijnana and leeds her astray. That's my interpretation. You, then, sight "...the late Mahaasi Sayadaw's meditation retreats and dhamma lectures..." as being a source, a CAUSE, which may enlighten her. Fine, I bet the Mahaasi Sayadaw had numerous valued points to make on the practice of MEDITATION. We can certainly view this in light of the citta-santana (Mental mind- stream) to realize that an obscuration is there, somewhere, which blocks K.Sujin's ability to visualize the practices of Meditation in the context and form that you are imbued with through the Mahaasi Sayadaw and the numerous works you sight later. While K.Sujin may be or actual is DEFICIENT in the practice of Meditation and it's benefits other sentient beings can now see more clearly the benefits of meditation. I have to go now. Please, lets further discuss this. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > > Dear Sarah, Nina, colette, Robert K, Howard, Robert Ep, Jon, > Hermann, and all > > How are you? > > While, and after, reading this post, I pitied her. I got the > impression that K Sujin has wasted her whole life without realising > how genuine Buddhist practitioners of formal meditation can be well- > informed and well-prepared. > > If she had had a chance to participate in the late Mahaasi Sayadaw's > meditation retreats and dhamma lectures, she would certainly realise > that her characterisation of formal Buddhist meditators exposes her > lack of understanding in these matters. <....> #95803 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Feb 9, 2009 2:02 pm Subject: Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > <. . .> > When I have spare time, I will offer Vibhajjavaada treatment on > K Sujin's position on meditation. ----------- Hi Suan, I don't think you need to put this discussion off until some long- term project can be completed. You have been a member of DSG for many years, and you know what the issues are. Surely, if you had any evidence of formal practice in the Pali texts you would have revealed it by now. In 'The Benefits of Walking Meditation' Sayadaw U Silananda writes: "Although it is not recorded in this sutta that the Buddha gave detailed and specific instructions for walking meditation, we believe that he must have given such instructions at some time. Those instructions must have been learned by the Buddha's disciples and passed on through successive generations. In addition, teachers of ancient times must have formulated instructions based on their own practice. At the present time, we have a very detailed set of instructions on how to practice walking meditation."(end quote) I know that most people will be convinced by that argument. As far as they know, every teaching is a set of instructions. They can only assume that, if those instructions cannot be found in the ancient texts, they must have been left out by accident.' Sayadaw U Silananda also writes: "But it was the Buddha himself who first taught walking meditation. In the Great Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness, the Buddha taught walking meditation two times. In the section called "Postures," he said that a monk knows "I am walking" when he is walking, knows "I am standing" when he is standing, knows "I am sitting" when he is sitting, and knows "I am lying down" when he is lying down. In another section called "Clear Comprehension," the Buddha said, "A monk applies clear comprehension in going forward and in going back. Clear comprehension means the correct understanding of what one observes." The venerable is omitting the Commentary to that sutta that explained how the normal kind of 'going' was not being referred to. You yourself have explained how in the sutta "clear comprehension" means to know things as they are *in the ultimate sense* (in the sense of conditioned dhammas). The Way taught by the Buddha was a Way of Understanding and the object of understanding was a presently arisen paramattha-dhamma. That can only happen by conditions, can't it? There is no time for carrying out instructions in order to see something that will be gone in a trillionth of a second. Once the Dhamma student realises and accepts that the Dhamma is a way of understanding the present reality he will no longer search the texts for a set of instructions to be carried out. They couldn't possibly be there. They don't belong there. Ken H #95804 From: "connie" Date: Mon Feb 9, 2009 6:29 pm Subject: Request for comment - etc. nichiconn Dear Lukas, back to the review: Sammohavinodanii (Dispeller), Khandhavaibha"nga (Classification of the Aggregates), A. Suttanta Division (a) Pa~ncakkhandhaa (The Five Aggregates) 5. And at this point, this materiality heap, which is classified in the eleven instances beginning with "past, future and present" as "the four great primaries (mahaabhuutaa) and the materiality derived from the four great primaries" (catu.n.na.m mahaabhuutana.m upaadaaya ruupa.m), and which is divided up into the 25 portions of materiality and as the 96 portions of materiality - all this the Fully Enlightened One taught by summarizing it under the name materiality aggregate (ruupakkhandha). But this feeling heap of the four planes, which is classified in the same eleven instances as "pleasant feeling, painful feeling and neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling" - all this he taught by summarising it under the name feeling aggregate (vedanaakkhandha). c: then it repeats "heap of the four planes, which is classifed in the same eleven instances" for each of the other three 3 khandhas and gives their "summarization" ["perception born of eye-impression ... perception born of mind-impression" and the same for "volition"; then the citta heap as "eye-consciousness (cakkhuvi~n~naa.na), ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-consciousness, mind-element (manodhaatu) and mind-consciousness element (manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu)"] SPD: c: Dispeller also says, as to "understanding the division of states in respect of the khandha": as to the "same eleven instances": SPD: The term khandha refers to the dhamma that can be described as past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near. Hence khandha is sankhata dhamma, the dhamma that is conditioned, which arises and falls away, and thus, it can be described as past, present, future, etc. Whereas asankhata dhamma, nibbaana, is the dhamma that does not arise, that is unconditioned. It cannot be said of nibbaana that it has arisen, that it has not yet arisen, or that it will arise. It cannot be described as past, future or present. Therefore, visa"nkhaara dhamma, nibbaana, is not khandha, it is free from khandha (khandha vimutta). c: I think it is pretty evident how those relate to the Vibh on rupa: Is characteristic of plane of desire(kaamaavacara). Is not characteristic of the plane of form(na ruupaavacara.m). Is not characteristic of the formless plane(na aruupaavacara.m). just one more quote for now, to remind myself of a need for precise speech - the word sabhaava in this case: SPD : With regard to the arising and falling away of ruupa, four different aspects can be discerned which have been classified as four lakkha.na ruupas: upacaya ruupa, the arising or origination of ruupa; santati ruupa, the development or continuation of ruupa; jarataa ruupa, the decay of ruupa; aniccataa ruupa, the falling away of ruupa. These four lakkha.na ruupas are ruupas without their own distinct nature, asabhaava ruupas, but they are themselves characteristics inherent in all ruupas. thanks, Lukas. connie #95805 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 9, 2009 9:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 2 sarahprocter... Hi Connie & all, A couple of typos - --- On Sun, 8/2/09, sarah abbott wrote: >4. The cause of rupas outside the body - only temperature. <...> >Interesting examples discussed such as the Buddha's seat (for Connie), the palace in deva realms, the appearance of robes and bowls in 'ehi passiko', twin miracles and so on. Temperature is the condition of what we can see, but this temperature (in these examples) is conditioned by kamma. So kamma conditions utu (temperature) which in turn conditions kamma resulting in the seat etc. ... S: The last sentence should read: 'So kamma conditions utu (temperature) which in turn conditions the rupas of the seat etc.' .... >9.Phil's comments about KS urging too deep an understanding, such as emphasising 'the deepest form of mindfulness of death' only and ignoring the relatively simple messages in AN and to Rahula #90940 KS: Everyone knows about the other kinds of death. Does it help? What about root and cause? The simple teachings are of no us. .... S: The last sentence here should be: 'The simple teachings are of no use.' Metta, Sarah ======== #95806 From: "connie" Date: Mon Feb 9, 2009 10:27 pm Subject: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 2 nichiconn Sarah! Hope the weather's good for you. 2. Survey, #94295, #92605 Atta- sanna, the remembrance or perception that it is "I" who is seeing, and that what is seen is a being, a person, a self OR a thing. "When someone clings to the concept of self, being, person, or different things and really believes that they exist, there is the wrong view of sakkaya-ditthi (personality belief)." Here, 'things' has to be understood as pertaining to those taken for 'self', such as 'leg'. When there is the wrong idea of 'comnputer', there is atta-sanna, attanuditthi, but not sakkaya ditthi. c: well, i had to laugh when I read that one - 'my pain, my sorrow! o, the agony of my neglect!' ... and not just the past negligence, but building up more even now. >4. The cause of rupas outside the body - only temperature. <...> >Interesting examples discussed such as the Buddha's seat (for Connie), the palace in deva realms, the appearance of robes and bowls in 'ehi passiko', twin miracles and so on. Temperature is the condition of what we can see, but this temperature (in these examples) is conditioned by kamma. So kamma conditions utu (temperature) which in turn conditions kamma resulting in the seat etc. ... S: The last sentence should read: 'So kamma conditions utu (temperature) which in turn conditions the rupas of the seat etc.' .... c: Yea, I really liked your "just vipaka" answer before. "Always" that belief in existence stuff with me - forgetting it's just stories & thinking they make real sense. Glad you fixed that about the conditioning, tho! Well, just "always" because of course, one minute it's one extreme and the next it's the other. peace, connie #95807 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:58 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "49. And just as this versatility is successful only in one whose mind has reached absorption, so too that described in the Pa.tisambhidaa should be understood to be successful only in one whose mind has reached absorption, that is to say: 'The mind deliverance of lovingkindness is [practised]* with unspecified pervasion in five ways. The mind deliverance of lovingkindness is [practised] in seven ways. The mind deliverance of lovingkindness is [practised] with directional pervasion in ten ways' (Ps.ii,130)." *Scott: A reading without the inclusion of ~Naa.namoli's 'practised' - which the Paa.li doesn't seem to warrant - shows better that these things just arise due to conditions and are just what they are. This will also be seen in the next three paragraphs. It seems it was the translator here who alters the sense of things with the word 'practise'. Path of Purity. "And as this change is accomplished by one whose mind has attained to ecstasy, so what has been said in the Pa.tisambhidaa (Pa.tisambhidaa ii, 131) as, 'Mental emancipation through love suffused unspecifically in five forms, mental emancipation through love suffused specifically in seven forms, mental emancipation through love suffused through the quarters in ten forms,' is also understood as accomplished by one whose mind has attained ecstasy." Yathaa caaya.m appanaappattacittasseva vikubbanaa sampajjati, tathaa yampi pa.tisambhidaaya.m (pa.ti. ma. 2.22) 'pa~ncahaakaarehi anodhisophara.naa mettaacetovimutti, sattahaakaarehi odhisophara.naa mettaa cetovimutti, dasahaakaarehi disaaphara.naa mettaa cetovimuttii 'ti vutta.m, tampi appanaappattacittasseva sampajjatiiti veditabba.m. Sincerely, Scott. #95808 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:26 am Subject: Gradual Sayings, Book of Threes, 67, Topics of discourse, ii - vii scottduncan2 Dear All, "(ii) 'Monks, it may be understood of a person by his conversation whether he is competent or incompetent to discuss. 'Now, monks, if this person, on being asked a question, does not give a categorical reply to a question requiring it; does not give a discriminating reply to a question requiring it; does not reply by a counter-question to a question requiring it, and does not waive a question which should be waived, - then, monks, such a person is incompetent to discuss. (iii) 'Again, monks ... If this person on being asked a question does not abide by conclusions, whether right or wrong, does not abide by an assumption, does not abide by recognized arguments, does not aabide by usual procedure, - in such case, monks this person is incompetent to discuss. But if he does all these, he is competent to discuss. (iv) 'Again, monks ... If this person, on being asked a question, evades the question by another, or turns it off point, or displays vexation, malice, and sulkiness, in such cases, monks, he is incompetent to discuss ... (v) 'Yet again, monks ... If, on being asked a question he loads abuse and beats down the questioner, laughs him to scorn and catches him up when he falters, - such an one is incompetent to discuss ... (vi) 'Monks it may be understood of a person by his conversation whether he is assured or unassured. 'He who lends not an ear, is unassured. He who lends an ear is assured. He, being assured, fully understands one thing, comprehends one thing, abandons one thing, realizes one thing. So doing he reaches the perfect release. 'This, monks, is the profit of talk, this is the profit of deliberation, of assurance, of giving ear to advice, namely, the release of mind without grasping. (vii) 'When talk is barred by anger, bias, pride, Men follow a way not Ariyan and seek For one another's faults, rejoice to hear A word ill spoken, a slip o' the tongue, - delight Each in the other's confusion and defeat. That way of talk the Ariyan follows not. If fain to speak, the wise man, since he knows The time, the way of speech the Ariyans use, The practice proper for expounding Dhamma, That sage will use such talk: not barred by wrath, Unbiased, with unruffled mind; not spiteful, Not arbitrary-minded, not detracting; But with full knowledge speaking he speaks well, Pleased with right speech, not gleeful at a slip, Not studying censure, catching not at faults: Reviles not, crushes not, nor speaks at random. O! good men's words alike instruct and please: Thus Ariyans talk. Such is the Ariyan speech. And knowing this the wise will humbly speak.'" Sincerely, Scott. #95809 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket / To Rob Ep 1 sukinderpal Hi Rob Ep, You’ve written quite a bit, and I blame myself for it. ;-) There appears to be quite a few misunderstandings, however I can’t deal with each point as they appear. Without going through your responses again to try and bring out as many points as possible, I’m going to start with a few and see how it goes. I’ll do this in several posts with different headings. If there is anything I’ve missed which you particularly want me to address, please let me know. Metta, Sukin #95810 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:49 am Subject: ‘Breath’ being difficult and the idea of no chosen object. A contradiction? sukinderpal Hi Rob Ep, `Breath' being difficult and the idea of no chosen object. A contradiction?: First, the warning about the difficulty of Anapanasati is usually made in reaction to the general belief and practice of taking breath as object to concentrate upon, with little or no consideration of the reality and concept distinction. But what is observed when breath is the object of vipassana development? Those during the Buddha's time who practiced samatha with this particular object, for them the attention being drawn to the breath was with the understanding of how this particular object could condition calm / kusala. It was not something which came out of simply being attracted to the idea or reasoning one's way into doing it as is done today. Theirs was the result of accumulated tendency which saw not only very clearly the danger of sense contacts, but also the subtle nature of the breath itself. Indeed these were the cream of the Buddha's audience. Anapanasati being special as potential object of vipassana comes from the fact of it comprising the direct experience of rupas along with nama, unlike other Jhana practices where `concepts' are object. Therefore someone with the necessary accumulations for vipassana panna can develop very high levels of discernments here. However none of this involves "choice". At the level of samatha, before hearing the Buddha's teachings on the matter, it was all up to particular conditions, particularly panna of the particular kind, which lead to breath becoming the object capable of conditioning calm. Upon hearing the Buddha suggesting the development of satipatthana, this too was not a matter of simply making a choice to direct the attention, but a case of wisdom of the kind being given the chance to now arise and develop. I'm sure there were those who were good when it came to samatha, but did not have the right accumulations for vipassana and so did not go in that direction. However those that did, theirs I believe would have been quite natural that insight began to arise and develop during the time that breath was taken as object. In other words while this group of people did what was natural to them, people today are drawn instead by an idea about Anapanasati and this not only without understanding, but in fact with wrong understanding. Metta, Sukin #95811 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:51 am Subject: Pariyatti vs. philosophical understanding sukinderpal Hi Rob Ep, Pariyatti vs. philosophical understanding:. You talked about questioning one's assumptions and distinguishing between what is mere belief from knowledge got from direct experience. When I was still relatively new to DSG, I questioned myself quite a bit, which I thought at the time to be a good thing. Now I don't think so, it depends after all on whether panna is involved. I think what was going on much of the time then was that I was lost in abstractions, very much conditioned by `self'; hence my questionings were of the same nature. When I came to understand gradually that the study of Dhamma must rightly be aimed at the present moment, I came to value what in fact distinguishes pariyatti from the other kind of study, which is that it is in fact "understanding", though intellectual, aimed at the realities that are in the present moment. That said, I'll admit to the possibility of questioning arisen as a result of having seen some signs of attachment and other akusala, but even then, this points to the need to refer to the present moment doesn't it, and not just questioning for the sake of it? As I said in an earlier post, an instance of suttamaya panna, cintamaya panna or bhavanamaya panna, is "straightening of view" taking effect. So when for example doubt arises and I start to have questions, pariyatti understanding could arise to study the present moment and *this* would be `straightening of view' and is of far greater value would it not? This is what my confidence in the Abhidhamma stands on Rob, namely that it points to the importance of knowing the present moment as being the only relevant object of wisdom development. I'm not being asked to accumulate theory / ideas, but to understand better and better that there is just this present moment and it does not matter what that is, after all it was conditioned and already fallen away. You also talked about being content with intellectual understanding and this being possibly and excuse not to practice. Firstly, my confidence in pariyatti is conditioned in part by the fact of seeing wrong in what is taught in the name of `practice' these days. In other words, I incline towards study and discuss knowing how easy it is to go wrong with regard to every experience. Second, given what I wrote above, can you appreciate that if indeed `pariyatti' is being encouraged, this can only lead to the good, including being honest with oneself? On the other hand, without an inclination to consider the present moment, one likely continues being fooled by one's experiences including mistaking akusala for kusala, no? Metta, Sukin #95812 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:53 am Subject: Pariyatti and Patipatti sukinderpal Hi Rob Ep, Relationship between Pariyatti and Patipatti: I think it is very important to understand that pariyatti and patipatti, both these are about the same mental factor, "panna". They have different objects, one concept and the other a reality; however, they are not two different cetasikas. It is by conditions that one or the other arises, both however are aimed at the present moment, therefore regardless of whether there has been little or much of either, each perform its function *rightly* as it must in leading one in the right direction. Indeed pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha must conform as well as inform, one the other. Statements which therefore places one against the other and suggestions that we do both / balance, pariyatti and patipatti, does not sound like one which is made by any level of panna. Rather it is a misunderstanding of both and results in encouragement of one kind of wrong patipatti or another. Pariyatti and Patipatti are conditioned and momentary realities: Pariyatti leads to patipatti and this leads to pativedha. Outside of this and leaving out vipakka and kiriya cittas, the citta is either kusala of the level of Dana, Sila or Samatha or else it is akusala, as it in fact is most of the time. When we therefore talk about the development of understanding, we are limited to only whether this is pariyatti or patipatti. When we insist on a practice / meditation, we then must determine if it is indeed `patipatti' which we are making reference to, do we not? Patipatti is exactly satipatthana and this is a level of sati and panna with a characteristic of nama or rupa as object. No one seems inclined to question the mode of attention given to breath or those other passing objects. If it is in fact not sati and panna of satipatthana, what is it then? Obviously it is not dana, sila nor samatha bhavana, does this not leave akusala of one kind or another as being the only possibility? And since some of it gives the impression of "knowing", would this not in fact be due to "wrong view"? Metta, Sukin #95813 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:54 am Subject: Meditation vs. Patipatti sukinderpal Hi Rob Ep, Meditation vs. Patipatti: When I stated that the inclination to reading and discussing was natural consequence of an interest in the Dhamma, whereas `meditation' was not, I was trying to draw the attention not only to wrong view, but also to ambition or overreaching. I believe even an Ariyan, on perceiving some lack, would see the value of continued exposure to the Teachings, indeed his confidence in it increases, much more than you and I. From one perspective, I feel that it is in part from not being grounded in the reality of one's accumulations, that one thinks that one can `just do it'. When I perceive for example, that there is so much ignorance and other akusala, my attention is drawn to the value of Dhamma with the understanding of it being the only set of teachings pointing to the Truth and hence capable of dealing with the kilesas. Knowing my own lack, why would I go on to rely upon and insist on my own power of observation? But of course meditation as is generally understood is *not* patipatti. The latter may arise unexpectedly even when one sees the need to keep developing the understanding at the intellectual level. Some may acknowledge that what goes on during meditation is not always kusala. However they will insist that the activity as a whole is what `practice' is all about and therefore to be encouraged. I see this as inadvertently encouraging ignorance, attachment and wrong view and not a good attitude to go by. It is bad at any time, but more so when associated with that which is the only Teaching capable of eradicating akusala. Metta, Sukin #95814 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:55 am Subject: Prescriptive vs. descriptive sukinderpal Hi Rob Ep, Prescriptive vs. descriptive: From one perspective it may be fine to view the Teachings as being a prescription; however I think it more true to view the Dhamma as being `description' of the way things are. Were I to hear something and `insight' arose as consequence, this may be said to be similar to being given a prescription by the doctor. However, because it is in fact about insighting the present moment upon hearing the Dhamma, this is exactly a case of being given a description, isn't it? After all, none of this involves any "doing", besides a general statement such as `khandha' or `tilakkhana' does the job. In fact, even if the reference is to one particular khandha, insight may arise to know an altogether different reality, depending on what arose at that moment, wouldn't you say? There is much danger in thinking that the Dhamma is a set of instructions or prescriptive. When for example we read in the Suttas about monks practicing Jhana, what otherwise could have been of value at the level of intellectual understanding, becomes distorted and one ends up trying to imitate those monks. Besides since any conventional reality can be seen as reflection of what goes on at the level of ultimate realities, isn't it vastly more useful if we read anything in the suttas with this in mind? For example knowing that the Satipatthana Sutta points to the reality of a particular level of sati and panna with nama or rupa as object, would this not help steer us away from thinking in terms of better time, place and position and therefore increases the possibility of this level of understanding arising at any time? And can you see how on the other hand, wrong thinking about the practice limits this possibility? Actually I think this latter obscures everything about the Dhamma including what practice is and instead encourages being moved by illusions of result. Metta, Sukin #95815 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:57 am Subject: Anapanasati and Satipatthana Sutta & Patthana for meditation. sukinderpal Hi Rob Ep, Anapanasati and Satipatthana Sutta: With the understanding of the Teachings being descriptive rather than prescriptive, I do not have a problem with the fact that the Buddha talked much and highly about Anapanasati. I think because one does not bring into it the factor of personal ambition, one is then free to correct any misunderstanding if not to improve on what is already there. As I said earlier, Anapanasati is a very special practice fit only for the best of minds. For the Savaka, after hearing about "reality", this particular practice leads to great levels of discernments. For the Bodhisatta, it is the obvious choice, in that it requires very great accumulations and has all that is necessary for understanding to be developed until the Path is arrived at, prior to which there was no knowledge of this. Only a Buddha-to-be has the accumulations to arrive at the Truth without help. His use of Anapanasati as vehicle was in accordance to this fact. His teaching the Dhamma is not meant to magically make Anapanasati easier for us to "do" it. The Dhamma points to the realties that make up our experience and this won't happen if we continued to believe that we need to do something special / different. For those with the particular accumulations for whom breath as object which conditioned calm was normal, and if they also accumulated the required panna of the other kind, this could lead to high levels of discernment. But even this is not necessary since given the accumulations, other objects outside of this particular practice could just as easily lead to enlightenment. Likewise with what is stated in the Satipatthana Sutta, namely the mention of the different `contemplations', the direct audience of the Sutta were all monks. The Buddha mentioned these samatha practices because these were what the different monks did. Like the mention of other activities such as eating, walking, getting dressed and turning around, all this was what they did by natural inclination. Those practices were not recommendations, but what was being pointed out to was the possibility of being mindful of namas and rupas regardless of what activity a particular monk was engaged in. In conclusion, I think that it is very important to see that it is "panna" which leads. With this, it does not matter then what we do and likewise what we read about in the Suttas, with regard to what the Buddha's disciples did. The point is always to come back to the present moment. Patthana for meditation: I was surprised to read about the Patthana saying that the study of dhammas is meant to be experienced *within meditation*. I wonder where you read this. As I understand it the whole idea of the Patthana is to point to the present moment with the understanding about conditionality. Why would it then "recommend" overlooking this and instead encourage being involved in some particular conventional activity? It sounds almost like a contradiction, not giving due consideration to the reality of "now" and expecting that one will have insight when involved in some activity of choice at another time. :-/ Metta, Sukin #95816 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:59 am Subject: Re: Request for comment - etc. szmicio Dear Connie >5. And at this point, this materiality heap, which is classified in >the eleven instances beginning with "past, future and present" as >"the four great primaries (mahaabhuutaa) and the materiality derived >from the four great primaries" (catu.n.na.m mahaabhuutana. m >upaadaaya ruupa.m), and which is divided up into the 25 portions of >materiality and as the 96 portions of materiality - all this the >Fully Enlightened One taught by summarizing it under the name >materiality aggregate (ruupakkhandha) L: All is clear, but I still don't understand why ruupa is classified by way of 25 and 96 portions? There is only 28 ruupas. > SPD: The term khandha refers to the dhamma that can be described as >past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, >inferior or superior, far or near. Hence khandha is sankhata dhamma, >the dhamma that is conditioned, which arises and falls away, and >thus, it can be described as past, present, future, etc. Whereas >asankhata dhamma, nibbaana, is the dhamma that does not arise, that >is unconditioned. It cannot be said of nibbaana that it has arisen, >that it has not yet arisen, or that it will arise. It cannot be >described as past, future or present. Therefore, visa"nkhaara dhamma, >nibbaana, is not khandha, it is free from khandha (khandha vimutta). > > > c: I think it is pretty evident how those relate to the Vibh on rupa: > Is characteristic of plane of desire(kaamaavacara). > Is not characteristic of the plane of form(na ruupaavacara.m). > Is not characteristic of the formless plane(na aruupaavacara.m). L: Now I see, rupa is sankhata, so it's always lokiya. But why it was said that it's ? rupa is also present in ruupaavacara bhumi. >c: just one more quote for now, to remind myself of a need for >precise speech - the word sabhaava in this case: > > SPD : With regard to the arising and falling away of ruupa, four >different aspects can be discerned which have been classified as four >lakkha.na ruupas: > upacaya ruupa, the arising or origination of ruupa; santati ruupa, >the development or continuation of ruupa; jarataa ruupa, the decay of >ruupa; aniccataa ruupa, the falling away of ruupa. > These four lakkha.na ruupas are ruupas without their own distinct >nature, asabhaava ruupas, but they are themselves characteristics >inherent in all ruupas. L: What is a diffrence between lakkhana and sabhava? Those threefold classifications are very beneficial.I mean Analisys according to Discourses, according to Abhidhamma and Interrogation. They support development of right understanding. The same Truth shown from diffrent angels. But do we exactly know why Buddha teaches us in this threefold way? My best wishes Lukas #95817 From: "connie" Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:07 am Subject: Request for comment, etc. nichiconn Dear Lukas, I was trying to remember this from the SPD the other day. It is another of the books I read and re-read & still miss things in. Anyway, hope this helps with: L: If something is sankhata, it's always also sapaccaya. SPD: We know that there are citta, cetasika and ruupa, because they arise, and they arise because of the appropriate conditions. Hence citta, cetasika and ruupa are sa"nkhaara dhammas 23. The Buddha's teaching is complete as to the letter and the meaning. The Buddha gave further explanations of Dhamma subjects the meaning of which people could misunderstand. He added words that described the meaning, making it even clearer. People could misunderstand the Buddha's teaching that the dhammas that arise because of conditions are sa"nkhaara dhamma; they might believe that the dhammas that arise could continue to exist. Hence the Buddha taught that sa"nkhaara dhammas are also sa"nkhata dhammas, dhammas that have been conditioned 24. Sa"nkhata dhammas are the dhammas that have arisen and then fall away 25. The Buddha used the term sa"nkhata dhamma as well as the term sa"nkhaara dhamma in order to explain that a dhamma arises because there are conditions for its arising and that when the conditions fall away that dhamma which has arisen because of conditions also must fall away. Sa"nkhata dhamma is the dhamma that has arisen and then falls away. Hence, sa"nkhaara dhamma, the dhamma that is compounded by conditioning factors is also sa"nkhata dhamma 26. The paramattha dhammas, which are citta, cetasika and ruupa, are sa"nkhaara dhamma as well as sa"nkhata dhamma. peace, connie #95818 From: "colette" Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:29 pm Subject: Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. ksheri3 Hi Ken Howard, BLESS YOU, ;), thank you for such precise examination in accordance with Abhidharma phraseology! > I don't think you need to put this discussion off until some long- > term project can be completed. colette: EXACTLY. IF A BETTER TIME COULD POSSIBLY EXIST THEN HOW COULD THAT BETTER TIME EXIST WITHOUT THE MOMENT WE ARE SPEAKING OR AND THE MOMENT WE ARE SPEAKING FROM? ------------------------------------ You have been a member of DSG for many > years, and you know what the issues are. Surely, if you had any > evidence of formal practice in the Pali texts you would have revealed > it by now. > colette: this is an interesting aspect. Are you suggesting that members here hide things from other members as a way of "gratification"? Is it, THEN, resonable to consider that those consumed by HATE (i.e. Lobha, Mosa, and Dosa), are in a conspiracy such as the three states that existed in Confuscious's time and they led to destroy by giving gifts to his patron, employer, of the three most lovely and seductive women to distract the leader of the community from hearing Confuscious's advice and clinging to that of his lustful desires? Yes, it is a close fit. You are suggesting that somebody is hiding something from others for their own personal benefit, which is how Confuscious was destroyed at one time. ---------------------------- > In 'The Benefits of Walking Meditation' Sayadaw U Silananda > writes: "Although it is not recorded in this sutta that the Buddha > gave detailed and specific instructions for walking meditation, we > believe that he must have given such instructions at some time. colette: here, then, with the cognition of a potential for instructions to have been given is where the analysis has to end or change. ----------------------------------------- Those > instructions must have been learned by the Buddha's disciples and > passed on through successive generations. colette: here you give rise to the concept of "THE ORAL TRADITION". -------------------------------- In addition, teachers of > ancient times must have formulated instructions based on their own > practice. At the present time, we have a very detailed set of > instructions on how to practice walking meditation."(end quote) > colette: indeed, we only have what remains in the consciousness of others and overe a period of time. --------------------------------- > I know that most people will be convinced by that argument. As far as > they know, every teaching is a set of instructions. colette: did you say Process Psychology? or was it a "blue print" or maybe a user's manual? ------------------------ They can only > assume that, if those instructions cannot be found in the ancient > texts, they must have been left out by accident.' > colette: I STAND IN DIFIANCE AND DIFFERENCE! <....> I CHALLENGED THE PRACTICES THAT I WAS INSTRUCTED IN AND I MODIFIED THEM TO FIT IN THE HERE & NOW, MAYBE EVEN IN A HUMANIST WAY SINCE I WAS WORKING ON THE UTILITARIAN PRINCIPLE OF THE MOST BENEFIT FOR THE MOST PEOPLE. THAT, MY FRIEND, IS NOT PART OF THE HATRED, LOBHA MOSA, AND DOSA, THAT IS MADE MANIFEST BY THE CASTE SYSTEM. I WILL NOT BE LED AND I WILL NOT BE SUBJEGATED! WHEN I WAS REALLY HAVING FUN PLAYING WITH SEX MAGIK IN L.A., 1982, I HAD ALREADY PROVED MY WORTH IN THE MAGIKAL ARTS AND SUDDENLY THE ROLLING STONES CAME OUT WITH THE ALBUM "START ME UP", BESIDES MY ABILITY TO SOMEHOW MAKE DEAD MEN CUM OR COME FORTH, IT CAN ALSO BE COGNIZED THAT "I DON'T WANT TO BE YOUR SLAVE" AND THERE YOU WILL FIND UNLIMITED ABILITIES FOR THE EXPOSITION OF GUITARISTS WHO SUPPORT MY BELIEF IN THE DESTRUCTION OF SLAVERY AND THE CASTE SYSTEM. ------------------------- > Sayadaw U Silananda also writes: "But it was the Buddha himself who > first taught walking meditation. In the Great Discourse on the > Foundations of Mindfulness, the Buddha taught walking meditation two > times. In the section called "Postures," he said that a monk knows "I > am walking" when he is walking, knows "I am standing" when he is > standing, knows "I am sitting" when he is sitting, and knows "I am > lying down" when he is lying down. In another section called "Clear > Comprehension," the Buddha said, "A monk applies clear comprehension > in going forward and in going back. Clear comprehension means the > correct understanding of what one observes." > colette: how nice to see your booby-trap: the album cover of Led Zepplin's album "PRESENCE" where we find a "fifties" dinner table where the man in his suit & tie is sitting down at the table, the domesticated and survile wife is puting the meal on the table and the children are sitting in their created positions where they are to live/exist for eternity, but somehow, if you have any consciousness at all, when you look at the cover graphics you will see that each individual has a different perspective of "the object" which is in the middle of the table, aka centerpiece. How can a person on the otehr side have the same view as the person on their other side? Didn't the Italian Architect Burnilesci, in building a cathedral find that "one point perspective" changges the "blue print" for the contractors? Which gave rise, in fact, to the concept of a blue print. That was a good booby-trap but I've been in the jungle now, abandoned by any and all humanity since 1978 so I know how to see booby-traps and where they're going to go. Hey, as a colleague, would you like to try some of my alchemy? <...> -------------------------------- > The venerable is omitting the Commentary to that sutta that explained > how the normal kind of 'going' was not being referred to. colette: GREAT WAY TO BACK UP YOURSELF. YES, OFTEN THERE ARE COMMENTARIES THAT GIVE FAR BETTER VISION AND VISUALIZATION THAN THE ACTUAL SUTTA THEMSELVES. ---------------- You > yourself have explained how in the sutta "clear comprehension" means > to know things as they are *in the ultimate sense* (in the sense of > conditioned dhammas). > colette: c'mon, help me out here. Why don't you tell us what "the ultimate" sense of a word or concept is? <.....> ------------------------------------------ gotta go but Paramatha dharma is an excelent point to make. I am proud as hell to be part of this discussion and bow to my audience for allowing me to perform here for you. I hope to continue this. toodles, colettte #95819 From: "colette" Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:20 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs. philosophical understanding ksheri3 Hi Sukinder, You say that you querstionded yourself. What is the self? Obviously I'm way out there in Yogacara and Hinahyana practices which do not allow you to consider their existance. WE are at the point where we can safely suggest that "we do not know". This gives us a foundation of ignorance. You are gonna have to produce the buddha as he was when he expired and you are gonna have to produce the evidence that states that you have the exact words and thoughts of the Buddha when he said these things. Hark, do I hear the Buddha's homeland crying out? Are you suggesting that the Buddha'd doctrine were not carryied out by his Hindu breathren when the Muslims invaded and torched the land of people that did not believe in what they believed? <.....> Yes, what is a self? DAre you to say that the Yogacara's and the Varjayana's et al are mislead? <......> Thank you for representing yourself. toodles, colette -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep, > > Pariyatti vs. philosophical understanding:. > > You talked about questioning one's assumptions and distinguishing > between what is mere belief from knowledge got from direct > experience. > > When I was still relatively new to DSG, I questioned myself quite a > bit, which I thought at the time to be a good thing. Now I don't > think so, it depends after all on whether panna is involved. I think > what was going on much of the time then was that I was lost in > abstractions, very much conditioned by `self'; hence my questionings > were of the same nature. When I came to understand gradually that the > study of Dhamma must rightly be aimed at the present moment, I came > to value what in fact distinguishes pariyatti from the other kind of > study, which is that it is in fact "understanding", though > intellectual, aimed at the realities that are in the present moment. > That said, I'll admit to the possibility of questioning arisen as a > result of having seen some signs of attachment and other akusala, but > even then, this points to the need to refer to the present moment > doesn't it, and not just questioning for the sake of it? <.....> #95820 From: "connie" Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:41 pm Subject: Request for comments, etc - how many? nichiconn Dear Lukas, >5. And at this point, this materiality heap, which is classified in >the eleven instances beginning with "past, future and present" as >"the four great primaries (mahaabhuutaa) and the materiality derived >from the four great primaries" (catu.n.na.m mahaabhuutana. m >upaadaaya ruupa.m), and which is divided up into the 25 portions of >materiality and as the 96 portions of materiality - all this the >Fully Enlightened One taught by summarizing it under the name >materiality aggregate (ruupakkhandha) L: All is clear, but I still don't understand why ruupa is classified by way of 25 and 96 portions? There is only 28 ruupas. c: It is just different ways of teaching, it doesn't change how many there actually are. It's the same with talking about the 3 or 5 or 36 or whatever feelings. As you said about the Vibh's threefold classifications or analyses: The same Truth shown from different angles. Here's the footnote for the 96 portions: Dispeller p51 n4: Cf. m.t to As.l 297: seven decads of the eye, etc. + three octads originated by temperature, cognizance and nutriment + two kinds of sound (originated by temperature and by cognizance) = 96 [LSC]. The wording is a little different in Expositor: << Herein, by the term 'all matter' twenty-five material qualities and ninety-six material species have been taken without remainder. >> Hope that helps. You could see more in SPD or Vism... and look up the corresponding posts in the Vism studies in the archives. I don't think we can "exactly" why Buddha taught the way he did outside of: compassion. Different approaches and different ways because of different understandings or beings' natures. It is immeasurable. Dispeller on "order of teaching" the khandhas: << For there are those people who, while teachable, have fallen to assuming a self among the five aggregates through these not having been divided up; and the Blessed One is desirious of releasing them from assumption of a self by getting them to see how the compact mass is resolved; and being desirous of their welfare, first, for the purpose of their easy grasping, he taught the gross materiality aggregate which is the object of eye and so on; and after that the feeling which feels the materiality experienced as desirable and undesirable; [then] the perception which grasps the aspects of the object of feeling thus: "What he feels, that he perceives" (M i 293); [then] formations which form by means of perception; [and lastly] consciousness which is their support and which dominates them. >> a bit later: << one who sees internal materiality as foul (ugly) fully understands nutriment consisting of material food, he abandons the perversion of [perceiving] beauty in the foul (ugly), he crosses the flood of sense desire, he is loosed from the bond of sense desire, he becomes canker-free as regards the canker of sense desire, he breaks the bodily tie of covetousness, he does not cling by the clinging to sense desire. >> and << when a visible datum (ruupa) has come into focus (aapaathagata) in the eye door, a clansman who is established in laying hold (pariggaha) thus: 'Lust (raaga) arises in me regarding an agreeable object and resistance (pa.tigha) regarding a disagreeable object and delusion (moha) regarding an unrecognised object; but pride (maana) arises in me when bound (vinibandha), [wrong] view (di.t.thi) when held (paraama.t.tha), agitation (uddhacca) when distracted, uncertainty (vicikicchaa) when not attained to a definite conclusion, inherent tendencies (anusaya) when habit-ridden (thaamagata),' knows the arising of defilements in himself. He thinks: 'These defilements by increasing will lead to my harm and undoing. Let me restrain them.' [But reflecting:] 'They cannot be restrained by one who lies down and sleeps; one must apply energy and purify virtue from the beginning,' and by practising as stated above, he reaches Arahantship. >> while another << when a visible datum (ruupa) has come into focus in the eye door, establishes the laying-hold: 'On what does this visible datum depend?' Thereupon, knowing it to be become (bhuuta) and dependent [upon the elements] (nissita), he lays hold [by comprehension] of the four great primaries and derived materiality as "materiality" (ruupa) and he lays hold of the states which have that as object as "the immaterial". Thereupon, by laying hold of mentality-materiality (naamaruupa) as accompanied by conditions, and by applying the three characteristics, he comprehends the formations with progressive insight (vipassaanaa) and reaches Arahantship. >> L: What is a diffrence between lakkhana and sabhava? c: I know i didn't do very well answering it in the other post... still my best shot though, sorry. I am not ignoring your other questions, either... just slow. peace, connie #95821 From: "connie" Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:47 pm Subject: request for comment, etc. nichiconn Dear Lukas, 1)Is low (paritta.m) L: What does Buddha mean by that? paritta means also: insignificant, small, little. Rupa is paritta, what does it mean? In what sense it is "low"? 2)Is characteristic of plane of desire(kaamaavacara). Why is that? What does 'being kaamaavacara' indicate? 4)Is included(i.e is mundane) (pariyaapanna.m). 5)Is not 'not included'(i.e not supramundane)(no apariyaapanna.m). L: What does it mean? --------------- Dispeller Classification of Aggregates C. Questionnaire 203. But as regards the "objects" triads (aaramma.nattika) (nos.13,16,19,21) <62.39>, four aggregates have limited objects (parittaaramma.na) in one who lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who comprehends, who reviews, through being instigated by the 55 states of the sense sphere. They have expanded objects (mahaggataaramma.na) in one who lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who establishes the laying hold through being instigated by the 27 fine-material and immaterial states; they have boundless objects (appamaa.naaramma.na) in one who reviews through being instigated by paths, fruition and nibbaana. At the time of reviewing a concept they should not be said to have [such] objects (na vattabbaaramma.naa) <62.41>. 207. Thus the Blessed One showed the Classification of the Aggregates (Khandhavibha"nga) by bringing in three cycles beginning with the Suttanta Division (Suttantabhaajaniya). And as regards the three cycles, there is only one way of dividing up [according to plane]; for the materiality aggregate is everywhere of the sense sphere only; the four [mental] aggregates, being of the four planes, are expounded as mundane and supramundane. c: Earlier, in the Suttanta division, when it was said only of the mental aggregates that they were of the four planes, it was not so explicit about the materiality aggregate but still implied. (i think the word is: 'to be inferred'.) We need to distinguish between "plane" as jaati (kusala-, akusala-, vipaaka- and kiriya-citta) and as realm (sensuous, attenuated and immaterial), too. Also bhuumi, as in sense-(desire)-sphere or kaamaavacara plane with it's "six kinds of bait"... all paritta yet we take them for so much and just can't get enough. Included, mundane, lokiya. You already answered that for yourself, though. It's all still more of that different ways of explanation & different aspects or sides to consider - like how, for instance, ruupa can be spoken of as so many "sensory objects" or "26 material qualities"; or earlier, we only talked about hetu as '6 root conditions', but hetu can also mean causal condition or paccaya in a more general sense. Still, matter would not be considered a root, but a proximate cause of mentality. When it mentions the objects triads above, it's referring to the Dhammasa"nganii's paritta- magga-, atita- and ajjhata-triads. peace, connie #95822 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:18 am Subject: Re: request for comment, etc. - szmicio Dear Connie I quote a passage from Dispeller, Khandhavibhanga, Questionnaire: " 204. These too, at the time of reviewing the trainees'(sekha) and non- trainees(asekha) paths <63.5>, have the paths as object (maggaaramma.na). They have the paths as root-cause (maggahetuka) throught its being conascent root-cause at the time of the path. They have the path as predominance(maggaadhipati) through object predominance by giving weight to the path at the time of reviewing. And they have the path as predominance througt conascent predominance in one who develops the path with energy(viriya) foremost or investigation(viima.msaa) foremost. They should not be said to have such objects in one who develops [the path] with zeal(chanda) foremost or consiousness(citta) foremost. " --------------------------------------------------------------------- L: I find this passage very important. "204. These too, at the time of reviewing the trainees'(sekha) and non-trainees(asekha) paths <63.5>, have the paths as object (maggaaramma.na)." L: Those Ariyas which had experienced 4 magga cittas and 4 phala cittas became an Arahat. But as I understand this, those moments arise only once and there can be a lot of moments of reviewing past magga and phala cittas.(The same with all sekha). So maggaaramma.na means those past maggacittas which are objects for present cittas reviewing it (PATH)? That's what i've asked Nina before and now I found my answer(or not) I used to not understand this topic before. I was wondering how past maggacitta can be an object to cittas that reviewing it at present moment. Or I didn't grasped it properly? ------------------ Disp: "They have the paths as root-cause (maggahetuka) throught its being conascent root-cause at the time of the path." L: But how past magga-citta can be a conascent root-cause(hetu) for present citta? My best wishes Lukas #95823 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:26 am Subject: Re: Request for comments, etc - how many? szmicio > L: What is a diffrence between lakkhana and sabhava? > c: I know i didn't do very well answering it in the other post... still my best shot though, sorry. I am not ignoring your other questions, either... just slow. L: That's OK. They are good answers. But I think you should give me more comments on it. You see Dispeller is very hard. My best wishes Lukas #95824 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:20 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "And herein, the mind-deliverance of lovingkindness is [practised] with unspecified pervasion in these five ways: 'May all beings be free from enmity, affliction, and anxiety, and live happily. May all breathing things ... all creatures ... all persons ... all those who have a personality be free from enmity, affliction and anxiety, and live happily' (Ps.ii,130)." Path of Purity. "And in this quotation, mental emancipation through love suffused unspecifically in five forms is to be understood thus: 'May all beings keep without enmity, without ill-will, without harm, well! May all living things, all creatures, all persons, all who are included under the term, individuality, keep ... well!" Tattha ca sabbe sattaa averaa abyaapajjaa aniighaa sukhii attaana.m pariharantu, sabbe paa.naa, sabbe bhuutaa, sabbe puggalaa, sabbe attabhaavapariyaapannaa averaa ...pariharantuuti imehi pa~ncahaakaarehi anodhisophara.naa mettaa cetovimutti veditabbaa Sincerely, Scott. #95825 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:59 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, From 'The Path of Purification', the phrase is given, for example: "50. And herein, the mind-deliverance of lovingkindness is [practised] with unspecified pervasion in these five ways..." Scott: It is rendered differently in 'Path of Purity' by Pe Maung Tin: "And in this quotation, mental emancipation through love suffused unspecifically in five forms is to be understood thus..." Scott: The difference lies in ~Naa.namoli's interpolation of the word 'practised'. The Paa.li is: ...pariharantuuti imehi pa~ncahaakaarehi anodhisophara.naa mettaa cetovimutti veditabbaa. Scott: I can't see where 'practised' comes from. I can see where 'to be understood' as given by Pe Maung Tin is probably from 'veditabba' but I can't see how 'practised' is anything but an injection of modernist 'Buddhist-speak'. Can anyone see where this 'practised' might have come from in the Paa.li? Sincerely, Scott. #95826 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:16 am Subject: Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. abhidhammika Dear Ken H, colette, Howard, Robert Ep, Herman, Robert K, Nina, Alex, Sarah, Jon, Alberto and all How are you? Ken wrote: "You have been a member of DSG for many years, and you know what the issues are." Suan replies: You are underestimating my pitch-dark ignorance about the issues of DSG. Precisely because of my ignorance, I started asking questions belatedly to get a clear picture of K Sujin's personal opinions (attanomati). Thanks to the kind people like Nina, Sarah, Robert K, Jon, Alberto, James, Scott, Robert Ep and you, of course, my ignorance about K Sujin's personal opinions and the issues of KS folks is under threat, very slowly. Ken also wrote: "Surely, if you had any evidence of formal practice in the Pali texts you would have revealed it by now." Suan replies: Not necessarily, Ken. Even if I have ample evidence, I do not have to waste my time and energy on explaining things to non-believers. As I am a traditional teacher of pure Theravada and a traditional Theravada practitioner, I am more interested in my own progress and the progress of fellow Theravada practitioners than wasting my time and energy on those outside pure Theravada system. Yes, I sounded selfish. In fact, I have been accused of being selfish when I declared my allegiance to Theravada. It was very long time ago that a PhD student asked me about my school of Buddhism when I was attending a Pali Honours class at the university in Canberra. When I replied that I am a follower of Theravada, he said, "Suan, you are selfish". He later became a Sanskritist with a doctorate. In fact, my compassionate lecturers were preparing me to become a Sanskritist as well. Without realising how lucky I had been, I dropped out after finishing the Pali year. One year ago, I met one of my former Sanskrit lecturers near a shopping centre. She told me, half-scolding, that I should have finished my Sanskrit studies. Meaning she was still not happy about my not having a doctorate. I digressed. What I wanted to say was that I have developed upakkhaa (neutral attitude) towards the non-believers outside Theravada system. Ken wrote: "You yourself have explained how in the sutta "clear comprehension" means to know things as they are *in the ultimate sense* (in the sense of conditioned dhammas)." Suan replies: Ken, I do not recall I have written along those lines. Ken asserted: "The Way taught by the Buddha was a Way of Understanding and the object of understanding was a presently arisen paramattha-dhamma. That can only happen by conditions, can't it? There is no time for carrying out instructions in order to see something that will be gone in a trillionth of a second." Suan replies: Ken, you are oversimplifying the Buddha's teachings, here, to the extent of the unrecognisable state. When will you and other KS folks understand that the Buddha's teachings are more than such oversimplifications? Oversimplifying is distortion, and keeping distorted version of dhamma as truth leads to distorted understanding. Is that what you want? Are you and KS folks advocating distorted understanding? Ken added: "Once the Dhamma student realises and accepts that the Dhamma is a way of understanding the present reality he will no longer search the texts for a set of instructions to be carried out. They couldn't possibly be there. They don't belong there." Suan replies: Ken, what are you rambling on? Why are you and KS folks so paranoid about the idea of the Buddha's instructions? Are you trying to use your imagined, alleged absence of instructions in the Buddha's teachings as a justification for not practising formal Theravada meditation? Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #95827 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:50 am Subject: Why Chant Abhidhamma passages at a funeral? robmoult Hi All, I just returned from a funeral of one of my past Abhidhamma students. As you may know, there is a tradition of chanting passages from the Abhidhamma as part of last rites. There is a short chant from each of the seven books (Dhammasangani to Patthana); kind of like very short summaries of each book. Does anybody know why this tradition exists? Why chant Abhidhamma passages at a funeral? Metta, Rob M :-) #95828 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:59 pm Subject: Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. kenhowardau Hi Colette, > colette: this is an interesting aspect. Are you suggesting that > members here hide things from other members No, not at all! Most people assume that the Dhamma must be a set of instructions that can be practised at will. They won't reveal the exact location (in the Pali texts) of those instructions because they don't know where they are. No one is trying to keep anything from anyone. If the formal-meditators did know where those instructions were they would reveal them straightaway. There is no doubt about that. :-) Ken H #95829 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:24 pm Subject: Re: Why Chant Abhidhamma passages at a funeral? kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All, > > I just returned from a funeral of one of my past Abhidhamma students. > As you may know, there is a tradition of chanting passages from the > Abhidhamma as part of last rites. There is a short chant from each of > the seven books (Dhammasangani to Patthana); kind of like very short > summaries of each book. > > Does anybody know why this tradition exists? Why chant Abhidhamma > passages at a funeral? > Ah, that is music to my ears! Your message, that is, not just the chanting. :-) I would love to know the origins of that tradition. I suspect it confirms the Abhidhamma's true place. I and other DSG people believe that the Abhidhamma was always taught first and foremost. The conventional-language suttas were to be studied only in the light of the Abhidhamma. Ken H #95830 From: "colette" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:06 pm Subject: Re: Why Chant Abhidhamma passages at a funeral? Mantrayana? ksheri3 Hi Rob M., Chanting, in general is, from my understanding and practice, a way to first stimulate the "forces" (for lack of a better term), raise them to an active state, and secondly to enhance and/or condition the force(s) that have been activated or aroused. Way back in the mid-60s when I started going to kindergarten and the educational process I began rocking and chanting every night, in bed. It bothered the hell out of my brother and I guess my parents thought it was a bit odd as well. I still rocked and chanted every night. My concept of the practice has changed recently since my work in the Alaya-Vijnana has lead me to some very interesting interpretations of not only the Alaya form of Vijnana but also the concept of Vijnana itself. Lets take the concept of death. In the Tibetan Book of the Dead the monks are to chant by the body for several days as a means of "guiding" the spirit through the Bardo stages or process. The key to this is the conceptualization that something that was part of the consciousness of the deceased still can hear or hears. Now we can characterize the "spirit" of the deceased as a "hearer". We find, in Buddhist sects a group calling themselves "The Hearers". I haven't had the time to actually research this sect or group but it does seem odd that a specific group of Buddhists would designate themselves as being similar or identicle to a spirit being guided through the Bardos. Firstly we have chanting as being nothing more than a characteristic of a person chanting but secondly we have a characteristic of the monks chanting for a specific purpose. Obviously the practice of saying mantras and/or chanting is a means of contacting a force or a something. When we deal with the placenta, oops, sorry, I get the concepts from "labels" confused and After-Birth and After-Life seem to get mixed up now and then, but when we deal with "the dead" for lack of better terms, we are dealing with something that we supposedly have no ability to cognize or understand since we have not actually experienced death. (I laugh, through the several Near Death Experiences I've had and think of the Rolling Stones album "Some Girls" or Some People, said in a mocking tone of voice). From my experiences I am certain that consciousness exists after the body has expired. You or anybody cannot change that in me. Now whether the "experiences of consciousness" that I had during the moments of SEVERE TRAUMA that my body has gone through were of my own making deep in my Un-Consciousness or Sub-consciousness is something that I've been trying to affirm or deny for more than 30 years. And I still cannot prove it one way or the other to this day but I can firmly say that the materials I've found in the esoteric sciences of Buddhism are profoundly the best I've seen since I became tired with the practices of WEstern esoteric sciences in the Golden Dawn, ca. 1987. Even the "Death Posture" of such chaos practicioners (..... his name escapes me for the moment) and the practices of the Temple of Psychic Youth (TOPY, from S.F.), while very applicable fail in their attempts to realize, experience, the "three times" of PAST, PRESENT, FUTURE into a singular experience or moment which indicates the mind- body-spirit unity. At death, it is obvious why chanting is recommended and practiced but I cannot fathom why the individual does not practice it while they are living/breathing but place the responsibility upon others to perform the practice AFTER the expiration of their body. <....> Good Question! Thanx for "being" with me! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All, > > I just returned from a funeral of one of my past Abhidhamma students. > As you may know, there is a tradition of chanting passages from the > Abhidhamma as part of last rites. There is a short chant from each of > the seven books (Dhammasangani to Patthana); kind of like very short > summaries of each book. > > Does anybody know why this tradition exists? Why chant Abhidhamma > passages at a funeral? #95831 From: "colette" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:30 pm Subject: "are thems 'fightin' words"? ksheri3 "force of habit. You say" steve winwood Hi Suan, VEry good counter to Ken's accedemic two dimensional approach. > Suan replies: > > Ken, you are oversimplifying the Buddha's teachings, here, to the > extent of the unrecognisable state. > > When will you and other KS folks understand that the Buddha's > teachings are more than such oversimplifications? > > Oversimplifying is distortion, and keeping distorted version of > dhamma as truth leads to distorted understanding. Is that what you > want? Are you and KS folks advocating distorted understanding? > colette: only 2 minutes left so this will have to be quick. "oversimplifying is distortion" au contraire! Anything actually understood by a person from another person is an understanding through biases filters etc. THUS DISTORTION. COLETTE --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > Ken wrote: > > "You have been a member of DSG for many years, and you know what the > issues are." > > Suan replies: > > You are underestimating my pitch-dark ignorance about the issues of > DSG. > > Precisely because of my ignorance, I started asking questions > belatedly to get a clear picture of K Sujin's personal opinions > (attanomati). <....> #95832 From: "colette" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:59 pm Subject: "Are thems 'fightin' words"? ksheri3 Hi Suan, I tried a few minutes ago to reply but don't know if it worked since my time on the computer ran out. my focus was on your statement: > Oversimplifying is distortion, and keeping distorted version of > dhamma as truth leads to distorted understanding. Is that what you > want? Are you and KS folks advocating distorted understanding? > colette: "Oversimplifying is distortion" where I say "Au Contraire". Lets look at distortion: is distortion the same vision that a telescope on the planet has of a star in the universe the same vision that a telescope orbiting the planet has of the same star? Which is distorted vision? Why is it distorted? How could it be distorted? OR lets take the distortion found in/through AUDIO FEEDBACK. I used a Fender "Champ" for vocals when I was in high school singer for a garage band. I also used an Echo-Plex (very old version of "digital delay). OR lets consider looking at the world through "rose colored glasses". In fact, in 1980-82, I wore a pair of "granny glasses" that were in the shape of an elongated octagon and the lenses were very red. The USN didn't like that at all, as a Communication & Intelligence Specialist, they took a dim view of my relationship to John & Yoko, etc. OR ... what I'm getting at is that "distortion" is a change in the vibration and saying that oversimplification is a distortion is WRONG VIEW. I don't know what your concern is to fight with Ken for since he is an "acedemic" theravadan in that his two dimensional psychology from his book knowledge/intelligence/experience forces him to play "the accuser" from Jewish mythology in the form of "ha Satan" Kens world does not exist without it's two dimensional user's manual, bible, popular mechanics schematic, blue print, first existing and dictating, directing, controling, the behavior of the sentient beings. Your world of Theravadan bliss is bogged down in the quagmire or swamp or even a bog (bogged down in a bog, how humourous) of simplification and the faith of a heirarchy and process existing somewhere that will help to relieve your suffering. There's nothing wrong with that since if a person is gonna walk they first have to crawl and your place on "the path" may simply be at cognizing and re- cognizing what a klesa or any obscuration that creates karma, actually is and therefore it requires to continually repeat the mantra of what a klesa is and what a klesa is not, over and over and over and over... until your existance has finally grasped the simplicity of what a klesa is. THIS, THEN, makes the couple of "you and ken" or two Theravadans as COMPLIMENTARY TO EACH OTHER where you focus on the actual work of the practice and the actual suffering of the practice while Ken reaps the profits and sits on his arse worrying about the two dimensional aspect of the Theravadan Psychology/Theory. Lets not worry about the mud, no? Unless of course, you're stuck in it. What concubine said: "You went out without your shoes on. So you won't feel the benefit"? No, it wasn't a concubine it was SUPERTRAMP, kindof like Under Dog or Sherman and Mr. Peabody with their WAY BACK MACHINE, etc. Supertramp made that marvelous realization and cognition. toodles, colette #95833 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:48 pm Subject: Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. kenhowardau Hi Suan, ----------- S: > Ken wrote: "You have been a member of DSG for many years, and you know what the issues are." Suan replies: You are underestimating my pitch-dark ignorance about the issues of DSG. Precisely because of my ignorance, I started asking questions belatedly to get a clear picture of K Sujin's personal opinions (attanomati). Thanks to the kind people like Nina, Sarah, Robert K, Jon, Alberto, James, Scott, Robert Ep and you, of course, my ignorance about K Sujin's personal opinions and the issues of KS folks is under threat, very slowly. ------------ I think I see your trouble: you are not a good listener. I'm not a good listener either. That's why I'll never be a teacher. Good teachers are good listeners. I am glad you have started to listen to us now. :-) ------------------------ S: > Ken also wrote: "Surely, if you had any evidence of formal practice in the Pali texts you would have revealed it by now." Suan replies: Not necessarily, Ken. Even if I have ample evidence, I do not have to waste my time and energy on explaining things to non-believers. ------------------------- I think K Sujin takes to opposite approach. She will answer any questions on the Dhamma - provided only that the questioner is prepared to listen. -------------------------------- S: > As I am a traditional teacher of pure Theravada and a traditional Theravada practitioner, --------------------------------- Even though many people regard K Sujin as their teacher, she doesn't refer to herself that way. I think she says we are all students learning the Dhamma together as best we can. --------------------------------------- S: > I am more interested in my own progress and the progress of fellow Theravada practitioners than wasting my time and energy on those outside pure Theravada system. --------------------------------------- The trouble is, how are we to judge which is the pure Theravada system? I think you are referring to a system that is found somewhere in Burma - where you were born. Others will feel just as strongly about their own national systems. That is the way of sectarianism, isn't it? Why not try to find the system that is contained in the ancient Pali texts? That is what K Sujin and friends are doing. --------------------------------------- S: > Yes, I sounded selfish. In fact, I have been accused of being selfish when I declared my allegiance to Theravada. It was very long time ago that a PhD student asked me about my school of Buddhism when I was attending a Pali Honours class at the university in Canberra. When I replied that I am a follower of Theravada, he said, "Suan, you are selfish". He later became a Sanskritist with a doctorate. In fact, my compassionate lecturers were preparing me to become a Sanskritist as well. Without realising how lucky I had been, I dropped out after finishing the Pali year. One year ago, I met one of my former Sanskrit lecturers near a shopping centre. She told me, half-scolding, that I should have finished my Sanskrit studies. Meaning she was still not happy about my not having a doctorate. I digressed. What I wanted to say was that I have developed upakkhaa (neutral attitude) towards the non-believers outside Theravada system. -------------------------- I suppose there are differences between Mahayana and the various commonly understood versions of Theravada. But I hope you will come to see that those differences are miniscule. The big difference lies between all commonly understood versions of the Dhamma and the version that is *actually contained in the ancient Pali texts.* -------------------------- S: > Ken wrote: "You yourself have explained how in the sutta "clear comprehension" means to know things as they are *in the ultimate sense* (in the sense of conditioned dhammas)." Suan replies: Ken, I do not recall I have written along those lines. -------------------------- Do you recall explaining the meaning of "knows" in "a monk knows he is walking" (in the Satipathana Sutta)? I forget your exact words, but didn't you say it was: "knows the way things are in ultimate reality?" ---------------------------------------------- S: > Ken asserted: "The Way taught by the Buddha was a Way of Understanding and the object of understanding was a presently arisen paramattha-dhamma. That can only happen by conditions, can't it? There is no time for carrying out instructions in order to see something that will be gone in a trillionth of a second." Suan replies: Ken, you are oversimplifying the Buddha's teachings, here, to the extent of the unrecognisable state. ------------------------------------------------ Please explain how I have done that. I think you will find I have simply stated the Dhamma that is found in the Pali texts and that has been completely ignored by all populist, modern-day versions of Buddhism (regardless of whether they call themselves Theravada, Mahayana or what.). ---------------------------------------------------------------- S: > When will you and other KS folks understand that the Buddha's teachings are more than such oversimplifications? Oversimplifying is distortion, and keeping distorted version of dhamma as truth leads to distorted understanding. Is that what you want? Are you and KS folks advocating distorted understanding? ----------------------------------------------------------------- Spare me the sloganeering. Just explain where KS's understanding is wrong and yours is right. ------------------------------- S: > Ken added: "Once the Dhamma student realises and accepts that the Dhamma is a way of understanding the present reality he will no longer search the texts for a set of instructions to be carried out. They couldn't possibly be there. They don't belong there." Suan replies: Ken, what are you rambling on? Why are you and KS folks so paranoid about the idea of the Buddha's instructions? Are you trying to use your imagined, alleged absence of instructions in the Buddha's teachings as a justification for not practising formal Theravada meditation? --------------------------------- You are not listening! :-) Ken H #95834 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:18 pm Subject: A Great Loss upasaka_howard Hi, all - I just saw the following sad news on the Dharma Drum Mountain web site: Our founder, Master Sheng Yen passed away on Feb 3, 2009. As a result, all of the Chan Meditation Center activities will be temporarily suspended from 2/3/09 until 2/15/09. In the interim, we will be holding 14-day "Buddha-name recitation Dharma ritual" Repaying the Benevolence of Our Master" from 9am-9pm. In my opinion, this is a great loss to the Dhamma and to Buddhists world wide. I have great confidence, though, that Ven Sheng Yen yet fares well. With metta, Howard #95835 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:50 pm Subject: Puggala Pa~n~natti, Chapter Four, 7. Who are the four preachers of Dhamma? scottduncan2 Dear All, "Who are the four preachers of Dhamma? Tattha katame cattaaro dhammakathikaa puggalaa? "Here a certain religious teacher speaks but little and what is irrelevant, and the congregation may not be competent to judge what is relevant and what not. Such a teacher, in a congregation such as this, passes for a teacher of the 'Norm.' Idhekacco dhammakathiko appa~nca bhaasati asahita~nca, parisaa cassa na kusalaa hoti sahitaasahitassa. Evaruupo dhammakathiko evaruupaaya parisaaya dhammakathikotveva sa"nkha.m gacchati. " Here a certain religious teacher speaks but little and what is relevant, and the congregation is competent to judge what is relevant and what is not. Such a teacher, in a congregation like this, passes as a preacher of the 'Norm.' Idha panekacco dhammakathiko appa~nca bhaasati sahita~nca, parisaa cassa kusalaa hoti sahitaasahitassa. Evaruupo dhammakathiko evaruupaaya parisaaya dhammakathikotveva sa"nkha.m gacchati. "Here a certain religious teacher speaks much and what is irrelevant, and the congregation is incompetent to judge what is relevant and what is not. Such a person, in a congregation like this, passes as a preacher of the 'Norm.' Idha panekacco dhammakathiko bahu~nca bhaasati asahita~nca, parisaa cassa na kusalaa hoti sahitaasahitassa. Evaruupo dhammakathiko evaruupaaya parisaaya dhammakathikotveva sa"nkha.m gacchati. "Here again a certain religious teacher speaks much and what is relevant, and the congregation is competent to judge what is relevant and what is not. Such a teacher, in such a congregation as this, passes as a preacher of the 'Norm.' Idha panekacco dhammakathiko bahu~nca bhaasati sahita~nca, parisaa cassa kusalaa hoti sahitaasahitassa. Evaruupo dhammakathiko evaruupaaya parisaaya dhammakathikotveva sa"nkha.m gacchati. "These are the four religious preachers." Ime cattaaro 'dhammakathikaa puggalaa'. Sincerely, Scott. #95836 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 1 sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, I know that Nina plans to spend today listening to her tapes and transcribing KS's answers to your questions. Here are some brief jottings I made to your second set: --- On Sun, 8/2/09, szmicio wrote: >"Dear Ajahn. I realised in my life what citta is. There were moments of understanding of citta. It has a characteristic of experience. It experience its object. It is not just word, that's a reality. Those moments of experience characteristic of citta was so natural. It was when I met your teachings for the first time. But now I don't experience it anymore. And I start to think that maybe all those is gone and i won't experience it anymore. I know that's lobha on account of past experience. But I feel bad with it. Akusala arise more often then kusala. And I think that's wrong. I still take it for myself." ..... KS: Because it's me! .... >"In one moment there can be kusala and then there can be akusala. then regrets on account of akusala may arise. But it's so hard to deal with regrets." ..... KS: Attached to reality - so it should be the object of understanding. There is still the idea of self which knows what is good or kusala, but it's just a reality. .... >"There can be also a lot of moments of akusala on account of reading of Dhamma. Should we stop reading Dhamma then? " ..... KS: No. Then what? And then go on with ignorance? Understanding will lead to more and more understanding. .... >"Can you remind us more about citta now?" ... KS: It's atta now. It's not easy to understand nama because one tries to have it known as something concrete like rupa. Seeing experiences an object - it is that which 'knows'. Even when there is no object like visible object or sound, there is still thinking. We don't have to mind about anything as 'I'. Understand, being aware - not trying to be aware. Forget about sati - whenever there's panna, there's sati! .... >Those are my doubts, I hope you give it to Ajahn. .... S: I may have put some of the comments in the wrong places because I'd given your questions to Nina, so just jotted down some of the responses at the time. As I said, she plans to add more from the answers. If you have more, please send them today, so we can raise them tomorrow. TIA! Metta, Sarah ======= #95837 From: "connie" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:58 pm Subject: Request for comment, etc - arisen nichiconn Dear Lukas, Just a short one today. I was thinking about what "arisen" means and looking at Dispeller (pages 7-8) on "past, future and present" #'s 23-31. I think mostly when "the abhidhammikas" on the list talk about present, they mean #30: <"According to moment": what is included in the trio of moments beginning with arising is called present. Previous to that is past. Subsequent is future.> Anyway, I think I will just say "What is ripening is arisen". Does that make sense? peace, connie #95838 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:15 pm Subject: Re: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 1 szmicio Dear Sarah Thanks! Another couple of questions: "Dear Ajahn 1) Self is so much involved in our daily life. We think about things and people. What is the way which leads to eradiction of wrong view? 2) Can pa~n~na arise without hearing Dhamma? 3) Should we know characteristic of each akusala? 4) No one can start to think in the right way. No one can understand if he wants to understand. Instead of kusala there is a lot of akusala. We talkin about developing understanding, but what we call development it's just a few conditioned moments which arise on its own conditions. Thinking is conditioned. Sati is conditioned, Right understanding is conditioned. Sila is conditioned. Reading and considering Dhamma is conditioned. We think about ourselves all the day. But it's also conditioned. No one can do anything, there is no self which can change realities. But notion of "Self" is so strong, it determines all our akusala and we take it for ourselves. Sould we lead normal life? 5) Does right thinking leads to right understanding? 6) What if there is a lot of akusala, can there be still right understanding? 8) What if we fight on account of Dhamma, if we don't lead proper life, if we are involved in pleasant feelings, can there be still pa~n~na? 9) What if there is akusala and there is no understanding? 10) What if we understand Dhamma on intelectual level, does it lead to right understanding in the future? 11) I still take it all for Self. 12) What about forgetfullness? I always relay on that there be less forgetfulness when I start to hear Dhamma. 13) Is it good to be with forgetfullness? I have no other choice. 14) If there is a lot of dosa in our life, is there any chance to develop more understanding? 15) What's with unplesant feelings? It hurts. 16) What if we are involved in pleasant feelings. Should we first stop enjoying them to develop right understanding?" My best wishes Lukas #95839 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:38 pm Subject: Re: Request for comment - past, future and present according to Sutta and Abhi. szmicio --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > Just a short one today. I was thinking about what "arisen" means >and looking at Dispeller (pages 7-8) on "past, future and present" >#'s 23-31. I think mostly when "the abhidhammikas" on the list talk >about present, they mean #30: <"According to moment": what is >included in the trio of moments beginning with arising is called >present. Previous to that is past. Subsequent is future.> Anyway, I >think I will just say "What is ripening is arisen". Does that make >sense? Yeah, it make sense. Dispeller states: "23. But this [phrase] "past, future and present" is twofold as Suttanta method and as Abhidhamma description. In the Suttanta it is divided up by way of existance. For from rebirth-linking[backwards] the materiality produced in past existances whether produced in the immediately preceding existence or at a distance of hundred thousand kotis of aeons(kappa), is all called past. And from death[onwards] the materiality producible in future existances, whether produced in the immediately next existance or at the end of a hundred thousand kotis of aeon, is all called future. The materiality which occurs between death and rebirth is called present." "24. But in the Abhidhamma description the division is by way of moment(kha.na). For there are three moments of materiality, arising(uppaada), presence (.thiti) and dissolution (bhanga). The materiality which has ceased (niruddha) after arriving at these three moments, whether it has just ceased or whether in the past at a distance of a hundred thousand ko.tis of aeons, is called past. Materiality which has not arrived at the three moments, whether it has not arrived by only as much as one moment of consiousness, or whether in the future at the end of a hundred thousand kotis of aeons, is all called future. Materiality which has arrived at these three moments is called past." L: It's classification of atiitaanaagatapaccuppanna according to Abhidhamma, khana(moments) and according to Suttanta. For now it's pretty clear, but problems starts later, when dispeller comes to another descriptions according to extent(addhaa), continuity(santati), period(samaya) and moment(khana). Connie thanks for you patience and kind explanations. My best wishes Lukas #95840 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:23 am Subject: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 3 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, (esp. Scott, Herman, Alan Mc A.) More excellent discussions and a special thanks to Jessica who raised a great number of excellent points and had some great dialogues with K.Sujin, especially on the topics of practice, understanding, vipassana and jhana. She'd just spent a couple of months or so helping with a Mahasi-style retreat in Myanmar and is now on her way back to Hong Kong. I think her comments and reflections will be very interesting. Here are some more jottings of my notes on points raised relating to DSG discussions. Apologies for the cryptic nature. I'll be happy to elaborate on anything: 1. On Scott's Mettaabhaavanaakatthaa Corner: a) If there is metta, we cannot harm others. All precepts based on non-harming, i.e on kusala. b)Herman's qu on metta for the dead, eg his grandmother in Holland, when we still believe they are alive. KS's answer: We can think about them with metta, but it doesn't develop to the degree of jhana. It can develop up to that degree, however. c) On the object of metta (Alan McA: #94110) - it's a nimitta of person/beings. After that, there is thinking about the person, such as thinking in terms of the dress, shape, character etc. There isn't this kind of thinking when metta arises. When jhana cittas arise, it's still the nimitta or image of beings. d) In the beginning there is a lot of attachment (to the dear) and aversion (to the 'un-dear'), so not much metta arises in these cases. When metta develops (through understanding), there can be metta anytime, to anyone, becomes 'unlimited' only when jhana cittas arise. e) On Scott's #94273 and #95670: "...pervading one direction with his heart filled with lovingkindness.....(mettaasahageatena cetasaa eka.m disa.m pharitvaa..)- developed nimitta. It is still the sign of beings. Panna which grows and develops - no thought any more of 'beggar' or 'terrorist' or 'snake' at such times. When there is an idea of 'forms', it is the subsequent thinking (with kusala or akusala cittas) about people. f) On Scott's #95652: on the 4 people in the boat - a dear, neutral, hostile and himself, when the bandits ask for one."...when he does not see a single one among the four people to be given to the bandits and he directs his mind impartially towards himself and towards those three people that he has broken down the barriers." Why, when metta is towards others, not oneself, helping and considering the needs of others? What about the Bodhisatta's examples? Understand what has arisen - to do or not do. Panna can understand one's own accumulations. We are not bodhisattas. Otherwise it is oneself planning what to do. Understand what has arisen. The bodhisatta knew his own life, his accumulations were so great for kusala, otherwise he could not have acted as he did. The purpose is different - the bodhisatta knew his own purpose. ***** to be contd. Metta, Sarah ======== #95841 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:27 am Subject: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 4 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, (esp. Scott, Connie, Alberto) contd. 2.#94792, Karunadasa's quote: " Hence it is contended that in the case of material elements which are positionallly inseperable it is not possible to say: 'This is the quality of that one and that is the quality of this one.'" All agreed - not correct. Rupas have characteristics which can be known one at a time by panna. Looking at the Vism extract from which it's taken - the meaning (as Sukin pointed out) is that 'rupa A is not a quality of rupa B, etc'. This is why the context is important. ..... 3. Survey #94408: "When sati arises and is mindful of realities and panna begins to study and investigate their characteristics, one will begin to understand that the outward appearance and all the details of things, all the different colours, are only what appears through the eyes, nothing else." The meaning is simply that all that appears is seen through the eye-door. .... 4. Survey #92705: "Does one know that what appears now through the senses or the mind-door is a paramattha dhamma, non-self?" The meaning is that visible object is also experienced through the mind-door. ... 5.Scott's #93527 quote from Siila Sutta describing the 5 khandhas as impermanent etc. Also described as 'su~n~nato anattato'. What is the difference in these last terms? Because it's empty, it's not self. Or, because it's not self, it's empty. .... 6. Connie & Scott's discussion as in #94926, #94894,#94931, on the alteration of the 4 great elements but not for the ariyan disciples as in the Nivesaka Sutta. Also, the Atth. quote on this. There can be hardness, then softness (different rupas), but the characteristic of pathavi dhatu doesn't change. The ariyan's wisdom is never 'lost'. .... 7. Alberto's #93601, #93800 to me (and my response) on the mind-door processes following the sense-door process. We cannot say 'only' the first mind-door process after a sense-door process has the same object (rupa) as object. It may be many processes. Only after those do the mind-door processes think of concepts. .... 8. Alberto's #92156 on when dukkha, 'unsatisfactoriness in all nama and rupa dhammas' begins to be known. In the beginning, only dukkha dukkha is known, i.e the unpleasant feeling. Only when dhammas are understood as anatta can the understanding develop which knows dhammas as anicca and dukkha (as in the 4th NT). ***** to be contd. Metta, Sarah ============== #95842 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:31 am Subject: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 5 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, (esp. Scott, Connie, Howard, Pt, Lukas) 9. On nimittas, as in Howard's #91963. In the sense door, there are no nimittas - they only appear through the mind-door. In the mind-door process(es) following the sense-door process, it is the nimitta of the reality appearing. All conditioned dhammas, i.e all dhammas which arise and fall away, have nimitta and thus it is the nimitta of realities which is known even at all stages of insight through the mind-door. Only nibbana is animitta, so only lokuttara cittas experience the animitta dhamma. The nimitta of visible object is experienced in the mind-door process by way of na'vatabba (that which cannot be classified). As Alberto put it well in #93776, "panna can 'only' experience nimitta of p.dhammas just fallen away...." Another point on Scott's quote about sati 'recalling' from the other day - here it is referring to samatha and sati. It is the past nimitta which citta is thinking about in the development of samatha. Vinnana nimitta - we don't have to think about which one - past or present. Anything which appears is all nimitta. The reality falls away in a split second. What is left is the image or nimitta. We live in nimitta world. .... 10. On sapaccaya.m (with cause) and sa"nkhata.m (conditioned) referrring to rupas in Connie's & Lukas's #95731 and other posts. Paccaya - when it doesn't condition anything yet. Sa-paccaya - must arise by conditions. Sa"nkhata - that which has already arisen, already conditioned. [S: I've enjoyed your Netti and Dispeller quotes on this, C.] .... 11. Pt's questions on kamma in #95446. Kamma and support conditions - can unintentionally (or intentionally) be a 'support condition' for another's akusala kamma or for another's kamma to bring its result. However, the real cause of the others' akusala is their accumulations for such and the real cause of say, painful bodily feeling is kamma. Discussion in this regard of support factors for kusala and akusala kamma to bring results such as the place where one is bornn(gati), time one lives (kala), bodily condition (upadhi) and success/failure in work (payoga) as Nina wrote about #92386. These refer to past and present support conditions. .... 12. On 'khandha' from the other day, I jotted down a note that 'heap' or 'collection' shows that not one is missing. We have to understand the reality - no term can fit the reality. ... 13. Rob K & Jessica brought up the hot topic of skilful and unskilful tanha. There can be tanha for coming and listening, but panna knows what is right. The quote from the Netti about skilful and unskilful tanha - by pakatupanissaya for kusala, not leading to rebirth. It is meant as skilful just in that sense. There may be conditions arising for wanting to be an arahat - it depends on panna to understand what is what. Even avijja can condition arupavacara cittas by pakatupanissaya paccaya. When ditthi arises, it's always referred to as the unskilful way. 14. Finally, the question Ann raised on DSG about a month ago concerning a sutta in SN in which visible object seemed to be repeated. Nina, Jon and I all gave our (different understandings) on the reason. When she read it out, KS gave her suggestion that it was referring to pancadvaravajjana citta as condition for cakkhu vinnana (sense door adverting consciousness preceding seeing consciousness). No one was quite satisfied and a friend checked the commentary in Pali /Thai. It seems the sutta is referring to the cetasikas arising with cakkhuvinnana and the 'things congnisable by cetasikas together with the citta which cognises the rupa'. Ann is going to check the details more carefully and report back in detail. What was interesting was that we were all wrong in our suggestions without the assistance of the details in the commentary. ....... Metta, Sarah ===== #95843 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:55 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "51. The mind-deliverance of lovingkindness is [practised] with specified pervasion in these seven ways: 'May all women be free from enmity, affliction, and anxiety and live happily. May all men ... al noble ones ... all not noble ones ... all deities ... all human beings ... all in states of loss, be free from enmity, affliction, and anxiety, and live happily' (Ps.ii,131)." Path of Purity. "Mental emancipation through love suffused specifically in seven forms is to be understood thus: 'May all women keep without enmity ... well! May all men, all the elect, all the not-elect, all devas, all human beings, all who are liable to punishment after deat keep ... well!" Sabbaa itthiyo averaa ... attaana.m pariharantu, sabbe purisaa, sabbe ariyaa, sabbe anariyaa, sabbe devaa, sabbe manussaa, sabbe vinipaatikaa averaa ... pariharantuuti imehi sattahaakaarehi odhisophara.naa mettaa cetovimutti veditabbaa Sincerely, Scott. #95844 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:21 am Subject: Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. abhidhammika Dear Ken H, colette, Howard, TG, James, Robert Ep, Herman, Robert K, Nina, Alex, Sarah, Jon, Alberto and all How are you? Ken wrote: "I think I see your trouble: you are not a good listener. I'm not a good listener either. That's why I'll never be a teacher. Good teachers are good listeners. I am glad you have started to listen to us now. :-)" Suan replies: I do not have to read every post on DSG to be a good listener. In fact, I do not even have to browse the Internet every day. Moreover, I joined DSG on the illusion that it is a simple forum for advocating traditional Theravada teachings and formal Buddhist meditation. It took a few years for me to slowly discover that it was not so. As James, and TG recently, alerted, DSG turns out to be a forum for promoting K Sujin's personal opinions who is a lay puthujjana teacher. There is nothing wrong about promoting a lay puthujjana teacher's personal opinions (attanomati) in itself. But, what is wrong about K Sujin and KS folks is that they are apparently against formal Buddhist meditation and teachers and practitioners of formal Buddhist meditation. Anyone who is against formal Buddhist meditation is against traditional Theravada teachings. __________ Ken wrote: "I think K Sujin takes to opposite approach. She will answer any questions on the Dhamma - provided only that the questioner is prepared to listen." Suan replies: She has been promoting her own personal opinions. As such, she does not have to take responsibility to ensure that what she answers is in line with Gotama the Buddha's Theravada teachings. ___________________ Ken wrote: "Even though many people regard K Sujin as their teacher, she doesn't refer to herself that way. I think she says we are all students learning the Dhamma together as best we can." Suan replies: It is good to know. After all, she has been promoting her own personal opinions. It is a good indication that she has doubt about her ability to be a traditional teacher of Theravada. As she seems to have problems with formal Buddhist meditation, we can assume that she has never practised formal Buddhist meditation. It is understandable that someone who lacks experience in formal Buddhist meditation is not able to refer to oneself as a traditional teacher of Theravada. ______________ Ken wrote: "The trouble is, how are we to judge which is the pure Theravada system? I think you are referring to a system that is found somewhere in Burma - where you were born. Others will feel just as strongly about their own national systems. That is the way of sectarianism, isn't it?" Suan replies: No, Ken, I was not referring to a system that is found somewhere in Burma. What I mean by pure Theravada system is Gotama the Buddha's teachings preserved in Vinaya, Suttanta, and Abhidhamma Pi.takas, which have been put through 6 Congress Recitals. Ken wrote: "Why not try to find the system that is contained in the ancient Pali texts? That is what K Sujin and friends are doing." Suan replies: I have the whole set of Cha.t.thasangiiti Pali Tipi.taka together with their commentaries, and subcommentaries. And, I have made it a compulsory habit to read the Buddha's teachings in Pali before I check my e-mails and browse the Internet whenever I switch on my laptop every day. Are K Sujin and friends trying to find the system that is contained in the ancient Pali texts? What do you mean by that? If they are, good on them and good luck! The only thing K Sujin and friends should remember, though, is that they should accept and promote only Gotama the Buddha's teachings if they intend to be traditional followers of pure Theravada. To be traditional followers of pure Theravada, K Sujin should remove or reduce her attachment (lobho) to her own personal opinions while her friends should also stop promoting her lay puthujjana personal opinions. In fact, her friends should discourage K Sujin's attachment to her own personal opinions. She and her friends should know that attachment is an unhealthy mental associate (akusala cetasikam). It is still possible that K Sujin can start a new life as a traditional follower of pure Theravada by promoting only Gotama the Buddha's teachings when she was able to reduce or remove her attachment to her own lay puthujjana opinions and the desire to promote them. Moreover, to be traditional followers of pure Theravada, K Sujin and her friends should renounce their opposition to formal Theravada meditation. Please remember this: Arahants' teachings are superior to the personal opinions of any lay puthujjana persons. Are K Sujin and KS folks good listeners? Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: < > Suan replies: Ken, what are you rambling on? Why are you and KS folks so paranoid about the idea of the Buddha's instructions? Are you trying to use your imagined, alleged absence of instructions in the Buddha's teachings as a justification for not practising formal Theravada meditation? --------------------------------- You are not listening! :-) Ken H #95845 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:44 am Subject: Formal Buddhist Insight Meditation Thickens Parts of The Brain abhidhammika Dear Dhamma friends I found a link on dhamma-list that show how formal Theravada Buddhist meditation thickens parts of the brain. Check it out! Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw ________________________ Meditate on This: Buddhist Tradition Thickens Parts of the Brain By LiveScience Staff posted: 11 November 2005 09:54 am ET Buzz up! del.icio.us Digg It! Newsvine reddit0 Comments | 3 Recommend Meditation alters brain patterns in ways that are likely permanent, scientists have known. But a new study shows key parts of the brain actually get thicker through the practice. Brain imaging of regular working folks who meditate regularly revealed increased thickness in cortical regions related to sensory, auditory and visual perception, as well as internal perception -- the automatic monitoring of heart rate or breathing, for example. The study also indicates that regular meditation may slow age- related thinning of the frontal cortex. "What is most fascinating to me is the suggestion that meditation practice can change anyone's gray matter," said study team member Jeremy Gray, an assistant professor of psychology at Yale. "The study participants were people with jobs and families. They just meditated on average 40 minutes each day, you don't have to be a monk." The research was led by Sara Lazar, assistant in psychology at Massachusetts General Hospital. It is detailed in the November issue of the journal NeuroReport. The study involved a small number of people, just 20. All had extensive training in Buddhist Insight meditation. But the researchers say the results are significant. Most of the brain regions identified to be changed through meditation were found in the right hemisphere, which is essential for sustaining attention. And attention is the focus of the meditation. Other forms of yoga and meditation likely have a similar impact on brain structure, the researchers speculate, but each tradition probably has a slightly different pattern of cortical thickening based on the specific mental exercises involved. http://www.livescience.com/health/051111_medidate.html #95846 From: "connie" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:30 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nichiconn Dear Scott, I guess "practise" (at least in the recent extracts) is Naa.namoli's way of thinking about "the-carrying-out"ness of haranta and our objection to Practise is just because of our habit of thinking in terms of a (Lasting, Powerful) person doing something; and even that's ok as long as we know we're caught up in and deluded by the established practises of ayoniso thinking. from Pali Words: Actually, some of those definitions remind me of "friendship" (kalyaa.namitta). peace, connie From 'The Path of Purification', the phrase is given, for example: "50. And herein, the mind-deliverance of lovingkindness is [practised] with unspecified pervasion in these five ways..." Scott: It is rendered differently in 'Path of Purity' by Pe Maung Tin: "And in this quotation, mental emancipation through love suffused unspecifically in five forms is to be understood thus..." Scott: The difference lies in ~Naa.namoli's interpolation of the word 'practised'. The Paa.li is: ...pariharantuuti imehi pa~ncahaakaarehi anodhisophara.naa mettaa cetovimutti veditabbaa. #95847 From: "nori" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:44 am Subject: The end of Suffering - Questioning the agenda of the Buddha norakat147 Hi All, Buddhism can be viewed in separate aspects. There is the aspect of ridding one's defilements (like greed, hatred, etc.), 8 Fold Noble Path, and bettering one's disposition, character and lifestyle to lead a better life for oneself and others. I can have no objection to this. There is the aspect of having compassion and consideration for others, being honest and sincere and cultivating other good qualities. I can have no objection to this either. Then there is the great agenda: that one should pursue to root out suffering altogether! To eliminate it once and for all... where it does not exist. This is what I question, and whether it is a good agenda, and healthy to do so. For from this great premise, 'that one should root out all suffering' follows the reasoning that life is suffering (i.e suffering is inherent in life), and which naturally leads to the point that life is probably not worth being involved in since suffering is something we should eliminate once and for all. This then leads to the reasoning that we should practice all these methods and techniques to accomplish this task, like not indulging in sensual pleasure, guarding the senses, living aloof from the world, not making contact, etc. It would be a really sad, sad thought to think (and I am sure this has happened to innumerable many others throughout time, like myself) that people would struggle all their lives to accomplish this task, only to create more suffering for oneself than if they had simply lead a moderate (as wholesome as can be) lifestyle. I can make the analogy (though a very imperfect analogy) to someone who has decided eating was not good for oneself, and so decided that he would get rid of this eating once and for all (and I am sure many have attempted this as well). He will struggle and suffer with this agenda all throughout his life. Trying not to eat. Eating as little as he can. Suffering, suffering ...never to realize his goal, feeling guilty every time he eats, all throughout his life, only to realize in that this goal was not attainable. So in the end for this person, was a needless struggle, a vain lifetime struggle. If this were the case for suffering, it would be a sad, sad, thought. For it would be the sacrifice of many lives that could have been better even though suffering was a part of it. Maybe a good moderate life, where one does not overindulge, where one is not greedy. Where one practices the other undoubtedly good practices of the Buddha I mentioned above. Who tries to surround himself with good people and lives life as happily as he can, accepting suffering as a part of life. With Metta, Nori #95848 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:15 am Subject: Re: The end of Suffering - Questioning the agenda of the Buddha szmicio Dear Nori, I found some good reminder, I hope you'll enjoy: (From Perfections Leading to Enlightenment - Ajahn Sujin) "The Bodhisatta said: These desires of ours are like pieces of meat. To those that grasp at them is sorrow, and to those that let go is peace. In the same Jãtaka we read about another example of the sorrow caused by clinging. A female slave Pingala had made an appointment with her lover and was waiting for him, but he did not turn up. So long as she was waiting and hoping for his arrival she was restless and could not sleep peacefully. Hope brings sorrow and the absence of hope brings peace is the lesson taught by this example. We discussed the application of this Jãtaka in daily life. We have many expectations which are all forms of attachment, lobha. We expect life to be pleasant but it cannot be real happiness. We have expectations from our friends, we want to be liked by them and we need attention from them. Don’t we often start a conversation with others just in order to receive attention from them? Bhante Dhammadhara reminded us that this is a whole area of our life we hardly ever consider. Such moments of clinging usually pass unnoticed, but when there is mindfulness of them they can be known as they are: only conditioned realities which are not self. If we want to renounce from akusala there should first be renunciation from the clinging to self. This will not be achieved by thinking about renunciation, but only by right understanding of the present moment. When there is seeing there can be awareness of it in order to know it as a reality which experiences visible object. Seeing sees visible object, everything which appears through the eye-sense. Visible object is not a person. We may understand in theory that we do not see people, only visible object, but we still believe that we see people. If there can be awareness of visible object and it is known as just visible object, not a person, we will come to understand the difference between the world of absolute truth, of namas and rupas, and the world of concepts and ideas. Before we heard the Dhamma we only paid attention to the world of concepts, but through the Dhamma we can learn the absolute truth. We can learn through direct experience that seeing sees visible object, not a person, that hearing hears sound, not the voice of someone. Through satipatthãna there will eventually be less clinging to the world of concepts, the world of people, of self. Renunciation can only be a perfection if there is also the development of satipatthana." (Chapter 4) My best wishes Lukas #95849 From: "connie" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:22 pm Subject: Request for comments, etc - characteristic nichiconn Dear Lukas, (and thanks, Sarah for the postcard help!) I've mostly been reading suttas here lately (& can finally say I've read at least one full English translation of the vinaya and 1st four nikaayas now), so I'm enjoying getting back into the Abhidhamma books with you. I think, really, all three baskets are hard and it takes a lot of "practise" (as in "getting acquainted") before we can say we might finally be starting to catch on intellectually; if it was all that straight-forward and easy, it wouldn't take a Buddha to point things out and we sure wouldn't need the Commentaries' (also difficult) help. I can't though, just sit and read something like The Book of Analysis straight through; but with things like our talking about ruupa khanda, it's been nice skipping around the different chapters and just picking out the parts talking about ruupa to think a bit about. Sometimes seeing basically the same points made from say the base & element ways of looking at it helps. I don't claim to understand very much, but appreciate the "begin again" saying and prefer to quote the texts than say much about my own "connentary". For instance, I kind of squirmed around your question about why ruupa isn't characteristic of the plane of form, but here's the answer I was hoping to run across - which gives us yet another way of thinking about "characteristic": CMA: Guide to I.$3: The word avacara, "sphere," which qualifies the first three planes, means "that which moves about in, or frequents, a particular locality." a particular sphere of consciousness comprises those types of consciousness which are typical of the corresponding plane of existence and which frequents that plane by tening to arise most often there. Consciousness of a particular sphere is not tied to the corresponding plane, but may arise in other planes of existence as well. a sphere of consciousness is typical for the plane that shares its name. Moreover, the kammically active cittas of any particular sphere, the cittas that generate kamma, tend to produce rebirth into the corresponding plane of existence, and if they succeed in gaining the opportunity to generate rebirth, they will do so only in that plane, not in any other plane. Hence the tie between the spheres of consciousness and the corresponding planes of existence is extremely close. Sense-sphere consciousness (kaamaavacaracitta): The word kaama means both subjective sensuality, ie craving for sense pleasures, and objective sensuousness, ie the five external sense-objects . Sense-sphere consciousness includes all those cittas that have their proper domain in the sensuous plane of existence, though they may arise in other planes as well. Do you have the this book, too? peace, connie #95850 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:20 pm Subject: Re: Request for comments, etc - characteristic szmicio Dear Connie >c:I can't though, just sit and read something like The Book of >Analysis straight through; but with things like our talking about >ruupa khanda, it's been nice skipping around the different chapters >and just picking out the parts talking about ruupa to think a bit >about. Sometimes seeing basically the same points made from say the >base & element ways of looking at it helps. L: I think that's why Bessed One made all those diffrent classifications. To help us understand the reality. Can we go througt ruupa in three seperate topics? I think it'll be good to study the first three vibhangas(khandha,ayatana,dhatus) at the same time. I like those diffrent classifications , they are very helpful. I've also have a lot questions on each. What do you think, Connie? > CMA: Guide to I.$3: The word avacara, "sphere," which >qualifies the first three planes, means "that which moves about in, >or frequents, a particular locality." a particular sphere of >consciousness comprises those types of consciousness which are >typical of the corresponding plane of existence and which frequents >that plane by tening to arise most often there. Consciousness of a >particular sphere is not tied to the corresponding plane, but may >arise in other planes of existence as well. a sphere of >consciousness is typical for the plane that shares its name. >Moreover, the kammically active cittas of any particular sphere, the >cittas that generate kamma, tend to produce rebirth into the >corresponding plane of existence, and if they succeed in gaining the >opportunity to generate rebirth, they will do so only in that plane, >not in any other plane. Hence the tie between the spheres of >consciousness and the corresponding planes of existence is extremely >close. > Sense-sphere consciousness (kaamaavacaracitta): The word kaama means >both subjective sensuality, ie craving for sense pleasures, and >objective sensuousness, ie the five external sense-objects . >Sense-sphere consciousness includes all those cittas that have their >proper domain in the sensuous plane of existence, though they may >arise in other planes as well. L: Another good description. > Do you have the this book, too? L: No I dont. My best wishes Lukas P.s When we read Abhi., I think we should appreciate that's only thinking that thinks. no problem or difficulties at all. #95851 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:00 pm Subject: Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. buddhatrue Hi Suan (and Ken H), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > Dear Ken H, colette, Howard, TG, James, Robert Ep, Herman, Robert K, > Nina, Alex, Sarah, Jon, Alberto and all > > How are you? > > Ken wrote: > > "I think I see your trouble: you are not a good listener. I'm not a > good listener either. That's why I'll never be a teacher. Good > teachers are good listeners. I am glad you have started to listen to > us now. :-)" > > Suan replies: > > I do not have to read every post on DSG to be a good listener. In > fact, I do not even have to browse the Internet every day. > > Moreover, I joined DSG on the illusion that it is a simple forum for > advocating traditional Theravada teachings and formal Buddhist > meditation. It took a few years for me to slowly discover that it > was not so. As James, and TG recently, alerted, DSG turns out to be > a forum for promoting K Sujin's personal opinions who is a lay > puthujjana teacher. James: I'm so surprised that you point me out by name in this regard. I haven't posted anything specifically negative about KS in a long time- several months at least. Suan, you have a good memory. :-) It should be no secret as to the purpose and emphasis of DSG. It is stated boldly on the home page, "The group started in Bangkok in the early 1970's under the guidance of the Thai Theravadin teacher Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket." What is interesting is that this phrase starts with "the group". What group? Surely not this Internet group- the Internet wasn't even in existence in the early 70s. So, we have to look again at the name of this Internet group "Dhamma Study Group". So, putting these two together it is clear that the purpose of this group (Internet group and KS group) is to follow the "guidance" of KS. Anyone else who posts to DSG is not really a member of "the group" and is an interloper. > > There is nothing wrong about promoting a lay puthujjana teacher's > personal opinions (attanomati) in itself. James: Yes, there is nothing wrong with that. However, the members of the KS group are not always clear that that is what they are doing. Therefore, it takes some member of the Internet group, such as yourself, several years to figure out what is really going on. That lack of transparency is a type of dishonesty. > > But, what is wrong about K Sujin and KS folks is that they are > apparently against formal Buddhist meditation and teachers and > practitioners of formal Buddhist meditation. James: Yes, and that is very shocking. Formal meditation (setting a specific time aside from daily activities for development of the mind through various concentration exercises) is the heart of the Buddha's teaching. Anatta and meditation go hand-in-hand. > > Anyone who is against formal Buddhist meditation is against > traditional Theravada teachings. > James: Now, here it gets a bit fuzzy. Traditional Theravada teachings are supposed to include all three baskets plus the commentaries. The commentaries suggest that there are two "paths" to enlightenment: dry insight workers (those who don't practice jhana/meditation) and wet insight workers (those who do practice jhana/meditation. I happen to disagree with this commentarial categorization, but it is a part of traditional Theravada. However, what the followers of KS propose goes even beyond this. Rather than accept the two categories, they state that because of anatta any attempt at meditation is rooted is craving and is therefore counterproductive and dangerous. So, not only do they not practice meditation but they actively discourage and disparage those that do. That isn't Theravada; that is just a fringe group with KS as the guru leader. Metta, James #95852 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:02 pm Subject: Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. kenhowardau Hi Suan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > <. . .> > As James, and TG recently, alerted, DSG turns out to be > a forum for promoting K Sujin's personal opinions who is a lay > puthujjana teacher. <. . .> > Anyone who is against formal Buddhist meditation is against > traditional Theravada teachings. <. . .> > She has been promoting her own personal opinions. As such, she does > not have to take responsibility to ensure that what she answers is > in line with Gotama the Buddha's Theravada teachings. <. . .> >It is a good indication that she has doubt about her ability to be a > traditional teacher of Theravada. As she seems to have problems with > formal Buddhist meditation, we can assume that she has never > practised formal Buddhist meditation. > > It is understandable that someone who lacks experience in formal > Buddhist meditation is not able to refer to oneself as a traditional > teacher of Theravada. <. . .> > The only thing K Sujin and friends should remember, though, is that > they should accept and promote only Gotama the Buddha's teachings if > they intend to be traditional followers of pure Theravada. > > To be traditional followers of pure Theravada, K Sujin should remove > or reduce her attachment (lobho) to her own personal opinions while > her friends should also stop promoting her lay puthujjana personal > opinions. > > In fact, her friends should discourage K Sujin's attachment to her > own personal opinions. She and her friends should know that > attachment is an unhealthy mental associate (akusala cetasikam). > > It is still possible that K Sujin can start a new life as a > traditional follower of pure Theravada by promoting only Gotama the > Buddha's teachings when she was able to reduce or remove her > attachment to her own lay puthujjana opinions and the desire to > promote them. > > Moreover, to be traditional followers of pure Theravada, K Sujin and > her friends should renounce their opposition to formal Theravada > meditation. > > Please remember this: Arahants' teachings are superior to the > personal opinions of any lay puthujjana persons. <. . .> --------------- Your arguments seem to have degenerated to the level of name-calling and sloganeering. If you can give me an example of where KS, or her students, have contradicted the Pali texts please do so. Then we can have a sensible discussion. Ken H #95853 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:25 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner jonoabb Hi Scott --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear All, > > From 'The Path of Purification', the phrase is given, for example: > > "50. And herein, the mind-deliverance of lovingkindness is [practised] > with unspecified pervasion in these five ways..." > > Scott: It is rendered differently in 'Path of Purity' by Pe Maung Tin: > > "And in this quotation, mental emancipation through love suffused > unspecifically in five forms is to be understood thus..." > > Scott: The difference lies in ~Naa.namoli's interpolation of the word > 'practised'. The Paa.li is: > > ...pariharantuuti imehi pa~ncahaakaarehi anodhisophara.naa mettaa > cetovimutti veditabbaa. > > Scott: I can't see where 'practised' comes from. I can see where 'to > be understood' as given by Pe Maung Tin is probably from 'veditabba' > but I can't see how 'practised' is anything but an injection of > modernist 'Buddhist-speak'. > > Can anyone see where this 'practised' might have come from in the Paa.li? I've come across a similar interpolation before. The context was the description of the Noble Eightfold Path in the fourth Noble Truth. The reading given was "This is the path *of practice* leading to the cessation of suffering, namely ...". (As I recall, it was a translation on ATI.) Jon #95854 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:06 pm Subject: Re: Request for comments, etc - characteristic ptaus1 Hi Lukas, > Can we go througt ruupa in three seperate topics? I think it'll be > good to study the first three vibhangas(khandha,ayatana,dhatus) at the > same time. I like those diffrent classifications , they are very > helpful. I've also have a lot questions on each. Just in case you don't know already - Nina wrote a book on rupa that might be helpful. I'm real happy I found it a few days ago when exploring zolag website: http://www.zolag.co.uk/rupas.html Best wishes pt #95855 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:16 pm Subject: Reminder - Nekkhama szmicio From Chapter 4, A.S - Perfections Leading to Enlightenment): "Renunciation, nekkhamma, is another perfection the Buddha fulfilled during his lives as a Bodhisatta. We read in the commentary to the Cariyapitaka [1] the following definition of renunciation: Renunciation has the characteristic of departing from sense pleasures and existence; its function is to verify the unsatisfactoriness they involve; its manifestation is the withdrawal from them; a sense of spiritual urgency is its proximate cause. The Bodhisatta recognized the unsatisfactoriness in sense pleasures and he contemplated the benefits of renunciation. In many lives he went forth from the household life into the homeless life. Renunciation is not only leading the life of an ascetic, it means above all renunciation from akusala. We read in the commentary to the "Dialogues of the Buddha" (commentary to the Sangiti sutta, Digha Nikaya III, 215) that "all good states are nekkhamma-dhãtu", they are the element (dhátu) of renunciation. At the moment of kusala citta one renounces from akusala. The perfection of renunciation has to be developed together with satipatthãna so that there eventually can be complete renunciation from all defilements and also from existence. The arahat who has eradicated all defilements does not cling to rebirth, for him there are no more conditions to be reborn. In the train to Bodhgaya Bhante Dhammadhara read to us the "Silavimamsa-Jãtaka" (no. 330). It is said that a hawk seized a piece of meat and was pecked at by other birds who also wanted it, until he let go of it. Then another bird seized it who was harassed in his turn until he let go of it, and then the same happened to other birds who seized that piece of meat. Whoever let go of it was left in peace. The Bodhisatta said: These desires of ours are like pieces of meat. To those that grasp at them is sorrow, and to those that let go is peace." My best wishes Lukas #95856 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:26 pm Subject: Re: Request for comments, etc - characteristic szmicio Dear Pt > Just in case you don't know already - Nina wrote a book on rupa that > might be helpful. I'm real happy I found it a few days ago when > exploring zolag website: > > http://www.zolag.co.uk/rupas.html Thanks. I think it can help in studying ruupas. I also encourage you and all our friends here to joint this analisys, and ask your questions in this topic. Diffrent kinds of questions are very helpful. I'll try to quote all my books i have to share it with others. And also ask Connie to do the same and try to give full quotes, not just pages. My best wishes Lukas #95857 From: "connie" Date: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:41 pm Subject: for comment, etc: Disp 204 nichiconn Dear Lukas, Disp. 204. These too, at the time of reviewing the trainees'(sekha) and non-trainees(asekha) paths <63.5>, have the paths as object (maggaaramma.na). L: Those Ariyas which had experienced 4 magga cittas and 4 phala cittas became an Arahat. But as I understand this, those moments arise only once and there can be a lot of moments of reviewing past magga and phala cittas.(The same with all sekha). c: 204's "These too", of course, being the four not-ruupa aggregates. Don't we also call phalasamaapatti phala cittas?: Sangaha ix 42: accessibility << Herein, the attainment of fruition is common to all, each being able to attain their respective fruition. But the attainment of cessation is accessible only to non-returners and Arahants. >> The Guide refers us to Vism xxiii 6-15. Itself says: "The cittas that occur in this attainment are the fruition cittas corresponding to the disciple's level of realization." ============= So maggaaramma.na means those past maggacittas which are objects for present cittas reviewing it (PATH)? That's what i've asked Nina before and now I found my answer(or not) I used to not understand this topic before. I was wondering how past maggacitta can be an object to cittas that reviewing it at present moment. Or I didn't grasped it properly? ------------------ c: What if we rephrase: past citta can become an object of future or present citta. From Guide to CMA III.16: <...> Mental object is sixfold: Each of the first five objects can be cognized in any of these ways: (1) through its own respective sense-door-process; (2) through a mind-door process; and (3) by the process-freed cittas occurring in the roles of rebirth-linking, bhavanga and death. Mental objects -the objects of the sixth class- cannot be cognized at all through a sense-door process. The can be cognized only by the cittas of a mind-door process or by the process-freed cittas that occur independent of the sense doors. Six kinds of objects fall into the category of mental object (dhammaaramma.na). Sensitive matter (pasaadaruppa) is the sensory receptive substance in the five sense organs; it is fivefold, eye-sensitivity, ear-sensitivity, etc. Subtle matter (sukhumaruupa) included sixteen species of material phenomena enumerated below (VI.6), among them the water element. Citta is also a type of mental object. Though citta experiences objects, citta in turn can become an object. It should be noted that a citta in its immediacy cannot become its own object, for the cognizer cannot cognize itself; but a citta in an individual mental continuum can experience earlier cittas in that same continuum as well as the cittas of other beings. The fifty-two cetasikas can also become objects of a mind-door porcess, as for example, when one becomes aware of one's feelings, volitions, and emotions. Nibbaana becomes the object of cittas occurring in the mental processes of noble individuals, both trainees and Arahants. Concepts - the class of conventional realities, things which do not exist in the ultimate sense - also fall into the category of mental object. So no different, really than than remembering where our shoes are, except that the object is different. ======= Disp: "They have the paths as root-cause (maggahetuka) through its being conascent root-cause at the time of the path." L: But how past magga-citta can be a conascent root-cause(hetu) for present citta? c: I don't think this means past cittas here, but that the present mental group has path as root cause. The present group is co-natal with their root-cause at this time. disp 204 continues: They have the path as predominance (maggaadhipati) through object predominance by giving weight to the path at the time of reviewing. And they have path as predominance through conascent predominance in one who develops the path with energy (viriya) foremost or investigation (viima.msaa) foremost. They should not be said to have such objects in one who develops [the path] with zeal (chanda) foremost or consciousness (citta) foremost. The last sentence. Such objects? I think in 205 that "such objects" mean past, present or future; that when a concept or nibbaana is under review, the objects are not past, future or present. Do you think also 203 says Concepts are not considered as limited, expanded or boundless? I like what you said: When we read Abhi., I think we should appreciate that's only thinking that thinks. no problem or difficulties at all. peace, connie #95858 From: "connie" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:07 am Subject: 09Feb Bangkok E-cards 4 & 5 nichiconn Dear Sarah, 2.#94792, Karunadasa's quote: " Hence it is contended that in the case of material elements which are positionallly inseperable it is not possible to say: 'This is the quality of that one and that is the quality of this one.'" All agreed - not correct. Rupas have characteristics which can be known one at a time by panna. Looking at the Vism extract from which it's taken - the meaning (as Sukin pointed out) is that 'rupa A is not a quality of rupa B, etc'. This is why the context is important. ... 12. On 'khandha' from the other day, I jotted down a note that 'heap' or 'collection' shows that not one is missing. We have to understand the reality - no term can fit the reality. ... c: and I took note of khanha in the sense of portion. definitely, the realities change! in that yes, now hardness, then softness but still... just characteristics, relations, functions. "it is contended" ... maybe Karunadasa wasn't agreeing, either? I'd have to look at it again, but not that motivated right now... either way, I believe it's possible to say. say, i'm Sure you didn't mean my beads quote for Han! lol. Do we know how he's doing? peace, connie #95859 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:22 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "52. The mind-deliverance of lovingkindness is [practised] with directional pervasion in these ten ways: 'May all beings in the eastern direction be free from enmity, affliction, and anxiety, and live happily. May all beings in the western direction ... northern direction ... southern direction ... eastern intermediate direction ... western intermediate direction ... northern intermediate direction ... southern intermediate direction ... downward direction ... upward direction be free from enmity, affliction, and anxiety, and live happily. May all breathing things in the eastern direction ... may all creatures in the eastern direction ... May all persons in the eastern direction ... may all who have a personality in the eastern direction ... [etc.] ... in the upward direction be free from enmity, affliction, and anxiety, and live happily. May all women in the eastern direction ... May all men in the eastern direction ... May all noble ones in the eastern direction ... May all not noble ones in the eastern direction ... May all deities in the eastern direction ... May all human beings in the eastern direction ... May all those in states of loss in the eastern direction ... {etc.] ... be free from enmity, affliction, and anxiety, and live happily' (Ps.ii,131)." Path of Purity. "Mental emancipation through love suffused through the quarters in ten forms is to be understood thus: 'May all beings in the East keep ... well! May all in the West, all in the North, all in the South, all in the Eastern corner, all in the Western corner, all in the Northern corner, all in the Southern corner, all in the direction below, all beings in the direction above, keep ... well! May all living things, creatures, persons, those who are included in the term individuality in the East keep ... well! May all women, all men, the Elect, the non-Elect, devas, human beings, those liable to punishment after death in the East keep ... well! May all women ... those liable to punishment after death in the West, North, South, Eastern, Western, Northern, Southern, corners, below, above, keep without enmity, without ill-will, without harm, well!" (Pa.tisambhidaa ii, 131). Sabbe puratthimaaya disaaya sattaa averaa ... attaana.m pariharantu. Sabbe pacchimaaya disaaya, sabbe uttaraaya disaaya, sabbe dakkhi.naaya disaaya, sabbe puratthimaaya anudisaaya, sabbe pacchimaaya anudisaaya, sabbe uttaraaya anudisaaya, sabbe dakkhi.naaya anudisaaya, sabbe he.t.thimaaya disaaya, sabbe uparimaaya disaaya sattaa averaa ... pariharantu. Sabbe puratthimaaya disaaya paa.naa, bhuutaa, puggalaa, attabhaavapariyaapannaa, averaa ... pariharantu. Sabbaa puratthimaaya disaaya itthiyo, sabbe purisaa, ariyaa, anariyaa, devaa, manussaa, vinipaatikaa averaa ... pariharantu. Sabbaa pacchimaaya disaaya, uttaraaya, dakkhi.naaya, puratthimaaya anudisaaya, pacchimaaya, uttaraaya, dakkhi.naaya anudisaaya, he.t.thimaaya disaaya, uparimaaya disaaya itthiyo ... vinipaatikaa averaa abyaapajjaa aniighaa sukhii attaana.m pariharantuuti imehi dasahaakaarehi disaaphara.naa mettaa cetovimutti veditabbaa. Sincerely, Scott. #95860 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:41 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear connie, Regarding: c: "I guess 'practise' (at least in the recent extracts) is Naa.namoli's way of thinking about 'the-carrying-out'ness of haranta..." Scott: As in (?): Harati...1. to carry...2. to bring...3. to take, gather (fruits)...4. to fetch, buy ...5. to carry away, to remove...to do away with, to abolish...6. to take away by force, to plunder, steal...7. to take off, to destroy...to kill...Caus. haareti to cause to take...to cause to be removed, to remove..." "Pariharati...1. to take care of, to attend to (acc.), shelter, protect, keep up, preserve, look after...2. to carry about...3. (intrs.) to move round, go round, circle, revolve ...4. to conceal...5. to set out, take up, put forward, propose... -- See also anupariharati." Scott: Or as in "...one bhikkhu carries (harati) [his meditation subject] forth [on the alms round but] does not carry it back (na paccaaharati)..." (Sammohavinodanii, vol. II, pp. 72-73)? c: "...and our objection to Practise is just because of our habit of thinking in terms of a (Lasting, Powerful) person doing something; and even that's ok as long as we know we're caught up in and deluded by the established practises of ayoniso thinking." Scott: ~Naa.namoli was interpolating back in the '50's and so this notion of 'practise' is well-entrenched, isn't it? As well entrenced as any other everyone's delusion all day long. c: "...Actually, some of those definitions remind me of "friendship" (kalyaa.namitta)." Scott: How so? Sincerely, Scott. #95861 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:49 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Regarding: J: "I've come across a similar interpolation before. The context was the description of the Noble Eightfold Path in the fourth Noble Truth. The reading given was 'This is the path *of practice* leading to the cessation of suffering, namely ...'..." Scott: Its hard to get around it, isn't it? As I mentioned to connie, this sort of thinking was obviously in vogue amongst the circle of scholar monks such as ~Naa.namoli, since he was interpolating in his Vism. translation back in the '50's. The idea that notions regarding self-directed 'practise' are to be carefully considered and not misunderstood is very much seen as fringe thinking or heresy or lunacy by many these days. Sincerely, Scott. #95862 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:37 pm Subject: Re: for comment, etc: Disp 204 szmicio Dear Connie I esp. like this aarama.nattika on "objects"<203.>. I want to rise some questions on it, but when i find more time. Here are my present doubts. > Disp. 204. These too, at the time of reviewing the trainees'(sekha) >and non-trainees(asekha) paths <63.5>, have the paths as object >(maggaaramma.na). > > L: Those Ariyas which had experienced 4 magga cittas and 4 phala >cittas became an Arahat. But as I understand this, those moments >arise only once and there can be a lot of moments of reviewing past >magga and phala cittas.(The same with all sekha). > > > c: 204's "These too", of course, being the four not-ruupa aggregates. > > Don't we also call phalasamaapatti phala cittas?: L: There are 4 phalasamaapatti which are the result of 4 magga-cittas. And then can be more if Nibbana is attained with jhana. But here there was said: "Disp. 204. These too, at the time of reviewing the trainees'(sekha) and non-trainees(asekha) paths <63.5>, have the paths as object (maggaaramma.na)" L: "they reviewing sekha and asekha paths" - it means that they are reviewing old magga-cittas which are past now. That's how i grasped it. Or maybe you mean that phalacittas reviewing old magga-cittas? But can vipaka review anything? I found it on Nina's conditions: " As we have seen (in Ch 2), Nibbana and the eight lokuttara cittas which experience it cannot be object-condition for lobha-mula-citta; neither can they be object-predominance-condition for lobha-mula- citta. We read in the same section of the "Patthana" (§416): 'Learners esteem and review (lower) Fruition. (They) esteem and review Nibbana. Nibbana is related to change-of-lineage, purification[51], path by predominance-condition.' Nibbana is object-predominance-condition for the eight lokuttara cittas which experience it, and it can also be object-predominance- condition for maha-kusala citta accompanied by panna and maha- kiriyacitta (of the arahat) accompanied by panna. Lokuttara cittas can be object-predominance-condition for the cittas which arise after the attainment of enlightenment and which review, consider with panna, the lokuttara cittas which arose. " Can you give me any explanations? I've always had problems how past moment(distant in time) can be an object to present citta. 203. "They have boundless objects(appamaanaarammana) in one who reviews throught being instigated by paths, fruitions and nibbana" L: So citta can review old moments of paths(which is citta) , old moments of phalas(which is citta) and also nibbana which is an object? Am I thinking in a good way? My best wishes Lukas #95863 From: "colette" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:13 am Subject: Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. ksheri3 Good Morning Houdini, Yes, good morning to you as well Ken, if you want to be called Ken, and Suan, I'm very glad that I ran into this first. Okay, the procedure goes: take ken's reply to suan. THEY HAVE TO BOTH BE READ AND COGNIZED. THEN I say/ask: "What is a 'seed'? Any psycho-phyicsal organism (nama-rupa) that is capable of producing a fuit either mediately or immediately through a specific modification of the mental stream (santatiparinamavisesajat). What is called a 'modification'? It is the mental stream being in a different state. What is called the 'mental stream'? It is the motivation complexes (samskara) of the three times existing as cause and effect." I'd like to quote that specifically but I haven't reached the end of the paper that gives me the quotes. I am also focusing very heavily on the Tibetan Aid Project's post card that reads: "Seen from Hepo-ri (Panting Hill), dragon-like clouds beginning their descent into Samy Valley provide a beautifullly intense backdrop for a small ancient chapel festooned with prayer flags." Photography by Richard Dixey. THIS IS A WONDERFUL FOCUS OF MEDITATIONS because of the differves aspects of the picture. Maybe Ken and Suan can gain something from it? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Suan, > > ----------- > S: > > Ken wrote: > > "You have been a member of DSG for many years, and you know what the > issues are." > > Suan replies: > > You are underestimating my pitch-dark ignorance about the issues of > DSG. > > Precisely because of my ignorance, I started asking questions > belatedly to get a clear picture of K Sujin's personal opinions > (attanomati). <.....> #95865 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket / To Rob Ep 1 epsteinrob Thanks, Sukin. Sorry I haven't been around. I will try to respond to your posts - hopefully I won't fall permanently behind... Best, Rob Ep. =============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep, > > You've written quite a bit, and I blame myself for it. ;-) > There appears to be quite a few misunderstandings, however I can't deal > with each point as they appear. Without going through your responses > again to try and bring out as many points as possible, I'm going to > start with a few and see how it goes.... #95866 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:34 pm Subject: Re: ‘Breath’ being difficult and the idea of no chosen object. A contradiction? epsteinrob Hi Sukin. I think this is an excellent and very worthwhile explanation. Without agreeing or disagreeing with it, I find aspects of it very lucid and worth reviewing. Thanks, Robert Ep. =================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep, > > `Breath' being difficult and the idea of no chosen object. A > contradiction?: > > First, the warning about the difficulty of Anapanasati is usually > made in reaction to the general belief and practice of taking breath > as object to concentrate upon, with little or no consideration of the > reality and concept distinction. ... #95867 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:52 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs. philosophical understanding epsteinrob Hi Again Sukin. I am embarrassed that this got so long, below. Hope you will know that I do not mean any offense by what I say. I consider this an honest and worthwhile discussion, and I thank you for that. "Conditions made me do it." :-))) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep, > > Pariyatti vs. philosophical understanding:. > > You talked about questioning one's assumptions and distinguishing > between what is mere belief from knowledge got from direct > experience. > > When I was still relatively new to DSG, I questioned myself quite a > bit, which I thought at the time to be a good thing. Now I don't > think so, it depends after all on whether panna is involved. I think > what was going on much of the time then was that I was lost in > abstractions, very much conditioned by `self'; hence my questionings > were of the same nature. When I came to understand gradually that the > study of Dhamma must rightly be aimed at the present moment, I came > to value what in fact distinguishes pariyatti from the other kind of > study, which is that it is in fact "understanding", though > intellectual, aimed at the realities that are in the present moment. > That said, I'll admit to the possibility of questioning arisen as a > result of having seen some signs of attachment and other akusala, but > even then, this points to the need to refer to the present moment > doesn't it, and not just questioning for the sake of it? The issue is not one of questioning of little items, or just for the sake of it, but whether one is able to discern whether one's overall approach is one that is in touch with realities, moving towards being in touch with realities, or is of an intellectual nature, pointing at concepts in a subtle way, and missing the objects of discernment. I do not aim this at anyone in particular. I would have no way of knowing or presume to know who is directing Right Knowledge towards the true objects of discernment or not. But I do think that the whole idea that I have heard several times, that intellectual knowledge is okay for the time being, because theoretical understanding is necessary before one can develop an akusala view of actual dhammas "in real life" is one that I cannot accept even theoretically. I think that intellectual knowledge is only corrected as it "takes turns" with practical knowledge, the actual experience of knowing something and seeing something through direct contact. If all the objects of discernment are lifetimes away from direct apprehension, I think the pariyatti thus left to itself is a serious problem. > As I said in an earlier post, an instance of suttamaya panna, > cintamaya panna or bhavanamaya panna, is "straightening of view" > taking effect. So when for example doubt arises and I start to have > questions, pariyatti understanding could arise to study the present > moment and *this* would be `straightening of view' and is of far > greater value would it not? > > This is what my confidence in the Abhidhamma stands on Rob, namely > that it points to the importance of knowing the present moment as > being the only relevant object of wisdom development. I'm not being > asked to accumulate theory / ideas, but to understand better and > better that there is just this present moment and it does not matter > what that is, after all it was conditioned and already fallen away. I can understand this idea, but it does not necessarily fit as well with the continuous layers of complexity that one is constantly sifting through day to day with the intellect in order to understand the various orders of dhammas and various schemes and interpretations of the classifications that are produced forthwith. The simplicity of casting away extraneous concerns and understanding the primacy of the real moment is a beautiful and elegant ideal and I think we might - possibly, maybe - all be able to agree on that, if we don't specify further. :-) But that is not what is occupying the moment-to-moment attention of the average Abhidhammika. The system is so complicated that it will take an enormous amount of time and effort just to understand the classifications, let alone get around to actually seeing a dhamma. That is at least a feeling and a fear that I think is worth consideration for this type of endeavor. How can you have a goal so simple and a method that is more complex than anyother philosophical system in existence since the dawn of time? Do those two really go together? Why not get on with it and discern nama and rupa and let them fall away. Do we really have to know exactly what nama is interacting with exactly what sense door-helper to work with exactly what cetasikas to discern which particular dhamma? This seems like more of a subject of intellectual fascination than one of practice value, particularly as no one or perhaps almost no one will ever perceive this set of factors in their actual perception. Before there will be a chance for it to fall away, it will be bounded about through the entire philosophical framework to measure and dissect all of its components. If the point is to let it fall away and to merely see that it is nama or rupa and that it is annica, anatta and dukkha, why study every complicated smidgeon of its components before it can pass away in peace? > > You also talked about being content with intellectual understanding > and this being possibly an excuse not to practice. Firstly, my > confidence in pariyatti is conditioned in part by the fact of seeing > wrong in what is taught in the name of `practice' these days. In > other words, I incline towards study and discuss knowing how easy it > is to go wrong with regard to every experience. Second, given what I > wrote above, can you appreciate that if indeed `pariyatti' is being > encouraged, this can only lead to the good, including being honest > with oneself? On the other hand, without an inclination to consider > the present moment, one likely continues being fooled by one's > experiences including mistaking akusala for kusala, no? I do not see, as you do, that intellectual acknowledgment gives a greater guarantee of identifying kusala with honesty than using the natural perceptual and mental capacities "in the field." Abhidhamma does talk about everyday life and discerning the natural namas and rupas as they arise, and I am in favor of that too, but I don't see what that has in common with excessive philosophical analysis. I think they are working in opposite directions after a certain point. Why is it less honest to sit down with oneself and say "Well I am not very good at any of this and probably have little panna, but now I'm going to sit down and see what arises with my own eyes. Conditions will dictate what takes place." That seems just as "raw" and "looking at the moment" as discerning them in daily life, and much more so that looking for answers through philosphical analysis of every last citta and cetasika that have been identified by the sages. I do agree with your spirit which is expressed very beautifully in your last paragraph about being honest with yourself intellectually before going off to do things that you are not qualified to do in practice. And I do agree that there should be enough understanding of what there is to discern and how the path works so that one is not ignorant of what is to take place. But after that point it seems self-defeating to put so much emphasis on the commentaries, compared to the actual moments as they arise. Best, Robert Ep. ======================== #95868 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:41 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti and Patipatti epsteinrob Hi Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep, > > Relationship between Pariyatti and Patipatti: > > I think it is very important to understand that pariyatti and > patipatti, both these are about the same mental factor, "panna". They > have different objects, one concept and the other a reality; however, > they are not two different cetasikas. It is by conditions that one or > the other arises, both however are aimed at the present moment, > therefore regardless of whether there has been little or much of > either, each perform its function *rightly* as it must in leading one > in the right direction. Indeed pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha > must conform as well as inform, one the other. > > Statements which therefore places one against the other and > suggestions that we do both / balance, pariyatti and patipatti, does > not sound like one which is made by any level of panna. Rather it is > a misunderstanding of both and results in encouragement of one kind > of wrong patipatti or another. Perhaps you are right. However, I am not speaking theoretically, and maybe my pariyatti is not adequate to do so, but I am speaking in terms of what I know about theory and practice. I don't think it is a totally wrong analogy to say that sutta and abhidhamma are like the menu, or the instruction booklet, and that discerning realities in line with the Dhamma in life is the meal or the action. It would be silly to order a meal without reading and absorbing the menu. We don't want to eat without awareness and an understanding of what is kusala. We don't want to order the "raw pork" or the "old shoe" so we should study the menu. The question is how long can we study the menu and should we do so for the entire mealtime. If you were to tell me that pariyatti *is* the practice and it is not necessasry to do anything else, then I would say "well that is a valid practice and I wish you well, but that's not my practice to read and absorb ideas without having an object to apply it to." If you say that we read and absorb the ideas and then they are applied in daily life as we go through various activities and we naturally discern realities to the extent our panna allows at that time then I would say "that sounds like a good practice." Then I would ask do you actually have a possibility of perceiving what you are reading about? If the answer is that it is very long way off, so we have to keep reading and wait, then I will say maybe that is really the way it is, but it starts to make me a lot more uncomfortable. I don't think the Buddha said to understand sutta 100% in this lifetime and practice Right Practice, Right Livelihood, Right Intention, etc. in a subsequent lifetime. So it seems that pariyatti can only be part of the practice. > Pariyatti and Patipatti are conditioned and momentary realities: > > Pariyatti leads to patipatti and this leads to pativedha. Outside of > this and leaving out vipakka and kiriya cittas, the citta is either > kusala of the level of Dana, Sila or Samatha or else it is akusala, > as it in fact is most of the time. When we therefore talk about the > development of understanding, we are limited to only whether this is > pariyatti or patipatti. When we insist on a practice / meditation, we > then must determine if it is indeed `patipatti' which we are making > reference to, do we not? Patipatti is exactly satipatthana and this > is a level of sati and panna with a characteristic of nama or rupa as > object. It seems like there is a sense here that there can be no development even while saying that development must take place. This idea that if you adopt a practice that it can never be kusala does not seem right to me. Each moment is unique and comes from and leads to various accumulations and tendencies. There is a certain fear it seems that once making a decision to do something and having any akusala understanding, it will go down the wrong path and never come back out. This does not seem correct to me. In any case I don't see why form will determine whether citta will be kusala or not. A balance of study, practice and daily living seems okay to me, if one does not expect this or that to occur. > > No one seems inclined to question the mode of attention given to > breath or those other passing objects. If it is in fact not sati and > panna of satipatthana, what is it then? I think it is wrong to say that no one gives the mode of attention any care. There are countless indications as to what constitutes right practice or not, according to the specifications of the Buddha. And they are carried on by Theravada teachers. Obviously it is not dana, > sila nor samatha bhavana, And who says it is not? does this not leave akusala of one kind or > another as being the only possibility? If the assumption were correct, but why would it be? And since some of it gives the > impression of "knowing", would this not in fact be due to "wrong > view"? If that were the case, but who says that it is? And on what basis? Best, Robert ===================== #95869 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:15 pm Subject: Re: Meditation vs. Patipatti epsteinrob Hi Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep, > > Meditation vs. Patipatti: > > When I stated that the inclination to reading and discussing was > natural consequence of an interest in the Dhamma, whereas > `meditation' was not, I was trying to draw the attention not only to > wrong view, but also to ambition or overreaching. > > I believe even an Ariyan, on perceiving some lack, would see the > value of continued exposure to the Teachings, indeed his confidence > in it increases, much more than you and I. > > From one perspective, I feel that it is in part from not being > grounded in the reality of one's accumulations, that one thinks that > one can `just do it'. When I perceive for example, that there is so > much ignorance and other akusala, my attention is drawn to the value > of Dhamma with the understanding of it being the only set of > teachings pointing to the Truth and hence capable of dealing with the > kilesas. Knowing my own lack, why would I go on to rely upon and > insist on my own power of observation? Where the matter comes down is to what is meditation? To me it is not separate from Dhamma, it is part of the Dhamma, and a means that Buddha included as part of the teachings. Therefore it cannot be left out. > But of course meditation as is generally understood is *not* > patipatti. The latter may arise unexpectedly even when one sees the > need to keep developing the understanding at the intellectual level. Meditation as a formal activity is no more nor less real than a book that one reads. If you can read sutta you can sit and breathe. I understand what you say about breathing being an advanced object. However, Buddha did not say that it should not be attempted by beginners. > Some may acknowledge that what goes on during meditation is not > always kusala. Of course not, as with any activity. No one would deny this. Your sense of meditators is not a very good one, but not accurate I think. However they will insist that the activity as a whole > is what `practice' is all about and therefore to be encouraged. Well, there is room for those who think that meditation is an important part of the Buddhist path, and those who do not. But I don't think there's any room to say that Buddha not speak about meditative practice and meditative states quite a lot. It is obviously a part of the path for many. I see > this as inadvertently encouraging ignorance, attachment and wrong > view and not a good attitude to go by. I guess I have to disagree with that, if you take into account that most meditators do not think it is the whole path as you say above. Most will say that it is one part, and that sutta is of very great importance. It is bad at any time, What is bad at any time? Not sure if you mean meditation or encouraging ignorance, which is obviously not good, and which no Buddhist would want to do. but > more so when associated with that which is the only Teaching capable > of eradicating akusala. Well I think you have overstated your case, but as I have said before there is a great prejudice against meditation and meditators around these parts, and I think that is wrong view as well. Very wrong. Best, Robert ====================== #95870 From: "connie" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:23 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nichiconn Dear Scott, Lukas, Regarding: c: "I guess 'practise' (at least in the recent extracts) is Naa.namoli's way of thinking about 'the-carrying-out'ness of haranta..." Scott: As in (?): Harati...1. to carry...2. to bring...3. to take, gather (fruits)...4. to fetch, buy ...5. to carry away, to remove...to do away with, to abolish...6. to take away by force, to plunder, steal...7. to take off, to destroy...to kill...Caus. haareti to cause to take...to cause to be removed, to remove..." "Pariharati...1. to take care of, to attend to (acc.), shelter, protect, keep up, preserve, look after...2. to carry about...3. (intrs.) to move round, go round, circle, revolve ...4. to conceal...5. to set out, take up, put forward, propose... -- See also anupariharati." Scott: Or as in "...one bhikkhu carries (harati) [his meditation subject] forth [on the alms round but] does not carry it back (na paccaaharati)..." (Sammohavinodanii, vol. II, pp. 72-73)? -------- c: all of the above. pariharati [pari + har + a] keeps up; protects; carries about; avoids. anupariharati [anu + pari + harati] to surround, enfold, embrace M i.306. in (to being, increase, etc) with the good; out with the bad old ugly. like two way 'carriage'. to perfection: one truth is origin, one exit. ======== c: "...and our objection to Practise is just because of our habit of thinking in terms of a (Lasting, Powerful) person doing something; and even that's ok as long as we know we're caught up in and deluded by the established practises of ayoniso thinking." Scott: ~Naa.namoli was interpolating back in the '50's and so this notion of 'practise' is well-entrenched, isn't it? As well entrenced as any other everyone's delusion all day long. c: c: and before Nan? and since. everyone making their own 'buddhism' as we go, mostly based on wordage and various reasonings or whatever other support view hangs on. ======== c: "...Actually, some of those definitions remind me of "friendship" (kalyaa.namitta)." Scott: How so? c: remembering our What is "kalyaa.namitta"? conversation: ...in this very life {di.t.th' eva dhamme} a Tathaagata is not to be regarded as existing in truth, in reality, KS III, ch.XXII, II. 4. $85(3) Yamaka; and yet, says our Netti 908: [The question] 'Is there (atthi) a Perfect One (tathaagata)?' is answerable. faith 'determines' those qualities we should revere & aspire or "liken to" -- paricaya (m.) practice; familiarity; acquaintance. ('should' - lol; 'in the day' mrsRD & friends used the word in ways we're no longer accustomed to; like dave? mentioning virtue not being on the list of things we see as virtuous) those acquisitions, that caya (piling, heaping, a mass) they say we're each an empty village, mud hutter! yet entirely empty or is there the influencial echoing of past 'practice', that caya - these becoming (yet unlovely, miserable) aggregates, bases, elements, the 'being' bombarbed with grosser 'surface' impacts on the 5 sense side & the more 'spacey' mental impingers following on after to lead on --& whether "what's a-happening" is the calling of the village raiders or the welcomed guest, isn't is usually "the enemy within" guarding us? dunno that it's quite "correct", but still can't help thinking of nimitta as meaning 'no friend'. Haaliddikaani sutta, ks iii xxii i 1(3) asks What are these nimittas of things seen, housefather? and we're told < - who is in bondage to these impressions is called "adherent" >; and then there's another 'no friend': << And how is one "no former of ties in the village"? Herein, householder, a brother dwells not associating with householders: he shares not their joys and sorrows, is not happy amid the happy, unhappy amid the unhappy. When affairs of business arise, he does not involve himself in them. Thus, housefather, one forms no ties in the village. And how is one "not empty?" >> but back to odd practice words: "irradiating" in AN Tens $ix(208) The Brahma-moods {brahma-vihaara}: [300] 'Monks, I declare that of intentional deeds done and accumulated there can be no wiping out without experiencing the results thereof, and that too whenever arising, either in this same visible state or in some other state hereafter. I declare, monks, that there is no ending of Ill as regards intentional deeds done and accumulated without experiencing the results thereof. Monks, that Ariyan disciple thus freed from coveting, freed from malevolence, not bewildered but self-possessed and concentrated, with a heart possessed of amity, abides irradiating one quarter of the world, likewise the second, third and fourth quarters of the world, likewise above, below, across, everywhere, for all sorts and conditions - he abides irradiating the whole world with a heart possessed of amity that is wide-spreading, grown great and boundless, free from enmity and untroubled. He comes to know thus: Formerly this heart of mind was confined {paritta}, it was not made to grow; but now my heart is boundless, well made to grow. Moreover whatsoever deed belongs to a limited range, now it stays not in that range, it stands not still in that range.^3 and i thought the footnote was interesting: p193 n3: Ya.m pamaa.na-kata.m kamma.m is taken by Comy as equal to kaamaa-vacara (sphere of sense-activities), while appamaa.na-kata.m kamma.m is of ruupaavacara (the realm of finer matter). This passage in the Brahma-viharas has hitherto been taken (By RD at D i 251 and by myself at KS iv {227}) to refer to the all-embracing range of amity, ie, he leaves out no finite object from his heart; but re-reading Text and Comy I think this trans will not stand for kamma.m and na tatraavasissati, for another idea seems thus introduced. Comy, which repeats a part of SA iii on S iv 227, seems to think it means, 'by shutting out the result of this or that act, of himself he is carried onwards to the Company of the Brahma-world.' peace, connie #95871 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:24 pm Subject: Re: Prescriptive vs. descriptive epsteinrob Hi Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep, > > Prescriptive vs. descriptive: > > From one perspective it may be fine to view the Teachings as being a > prescription; however I think it more true to view the Dhamma as > being `description' of the way things are. Were I to hear something > and `insight' arose as consequence, this may be said to be similar to > being given a prescription by the doctor. However, because it is in > fact about insighting the present moment upon hearing the Dhamma, > this is exactly a case of being given a description, isn't it? After > all, none of this involves any "doing", besides a general statement > such as `khandha' or `tilakkhana' does the job. In fact, even if the > reference is to one particular khandha, insight may arise to know an > altogether different reality, depending on what arose at that moment, > wouldn't you say? > > There is much danger in thinking that the Dhamma is a set of > instructions or prescriptive. When for example we read in the Suttas > about monks practicing Jhana, what otherwise could have been of value > at the level of intellectual understanding, becomes distorted and one > ends up trying to imitate those monks. > > Besides since any conventional reality can be seen as reflection of > what goes on at the level of ultimate realities, isn't it vastly more > useful if we read anything in the suttas with this in mind? For > example knowing that the Satipatthana Sutta points to the reality of > a particular level of sati and panna with nama or rupa as object, > would this not help steer us away from thinking in terms of better > time, place and position and therefore increases the possibility of > this level of understanding arising at any time? And can you see how > on the other hand, wrong thinking about the practice limits this > possibility? Actually I think this latter obscures everything about > the Dhamma including what practice is and instead encourages being > moved by illusions of result. > > > Metta, > > Sukin I think you make some interesting points about practicing where one is and not trying to imitate the advanced stages of others, but when you get to the end you make some leaps of logic that don't compute. To say it "obscures everything about the Dhamma including what practice is" seems too much to me. I think we can be cautious and proportional without overstating the case. Best, Robert Ep. ========================= #95872 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:04 pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati and Satipatthana Sutta & Patthana for meditation. epsteinrob Hi Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep, > > Anapanasati and Satipatthana Sutta: > > With the understanding of the Teachings being descriptive rather than > prescriptive, I do not have a problem with the fact that the Buddha > talked much and highly about Anapanasati. I think because one does > not bring into it the factor of personal ambition, one is then free > to correct any misunderstanding if not to improve on what is already > there. > > As I said earlier, Anapanasati is a very special practice fit only > for the best of minds. What is your source for this opinion? I mean this literally: I would like to know the source. I do not understand what is so restrictive about the basic meditation exercise for almost every culture. There is no one who does not breathe, no one who is not familiar with the sensation of the breath in the body. What you say does not make sense to me. The idea that *breathing,* the most basic natural activity, is the most advanced meditation object, is one of those instances which puts the logical upside-down. For the Savaka, after hearing about "reality", > this particular practice leads to great levels of discernments. For > the Bodhisatta, it is the obvious choice, in that it requires very > great accumulations and has all that is necessary for understanding > to be developed until the Path is arrived at, prior to which there > was no knowledge of this. You obviously have some special formulations that I am not aware of that come from Abhidhamma. > > Only a Buddha-to-be has the accumulations to arrive at the Truth > without help. His use of Anapanasati as vehicle was in accordance to > this fact. Buddha does not mention this. His teaching the Dhamma is not meant to magically make > Anapanasati easier for us to "do" it. The Dhamma points to the > realties that make up our experience and this won't happen if we > continued to believe that we need to do something special / > different. For those with the particular accumulations for whom > breath as object which conditioned calm was normal, and if they also > accumulated the required panna of the other kind, this could lead to > high levels of discernment. These complex formulas of requirement to do a very simple activity, because of the complex nature of your definitions of the operations of discernment, create a whole set of rules for who should or shouldn't attempt to do the one basic Buddhist meditation mentioned by the Buddha over and over again. I am afraid that without embracing and understanding your system I would not be able to agree with such an esoteric interpretation which was never given by the Buddha. Considering that you do not believe that Buddhism is prescriptive, you have an awful lot of warnings as to what others should *not* do. Why not let them do as their own accumulations direct them to do, when they hear about anapansati? If they were not ready for it, why would they be interested? I know plenty of people who think mediation is a great bore and can't understand why they'd want to do it at all. But even this is not necessary since > given the accumulations, other objects outside of this particular > practice could just as easily lead to enlightenment. According to whom? Please give me a source for this as well. > > Likewise with what is stated in the Satipatthana Sutta, namely the > mention of the different `contemplations', the direct audience of the > Sutta were all monks. The Buddha mentioned these samatha practices > because these were what the different monks did. Like the mention of > other activities such as eating, walking, getting dressed and turning > around, all this was what they did by natural inclination. Everyone eats, walks, and gets dressed. And everyone breathes. Those > practices were not recommendations, but what was being pointed out to > was the possibility of being mindful of namas and rupas regardless of > what activity a particular monk was engaged in. What is the source for saying that these activities were only for those in the audience at that time? Do you have anything other than deduction and speculation to support this view? > > In conclusion, I think that it is very important to see that it is > "panna" which leads. With this, it does not matter then what we do > and likewise what we read about in the Suttas, with regard to what > the Buddha's disciples did. The point is always to come back to the > present moment. Giving warnings about anyone doing anapansati, the main activity of many Buddhist communities and cultures, from the original India to Thailand, Vietnam and elsewhere for thousands of years, is not being in the moment, in my opinion. Or expressing the wisdom of the Buddha's teachings in their fullness. > > Patthana for meditation: > > I was surprised to read about the Patthana saying that the study of > dhammas is meant to be experienced *within meditation*. I wonder > where you read this. Well, unfortunately I cannot find it at present. I will look. In the meantime, I came across this description in which anapansati is mentioned in the Patisambhida Magga: "In the Anapana Sati Sutta, there is no reference to locate the in and out breath at any particular point but merely states how to arouse mindfulness on the object of meditation, namely, arouse mindfulness in front - Satin Upatthapetva. "However, in the Patisambhida Magga, which is a part of the Abhidhamma, it is recorded that the Buddha has stated to focus attention at the point below the nostrils and above the upper lip. Later, since certain communities found it difficult to locate the breath at the tip of the nostrils due to their natural facial structure, they were advised to focus attention on the rise and fall of the abdomen." http://www.dailynews.lk/2005/07/21/fea01.htm > As I understand it the whole idea of the Patthana is to point to the > present moment with the understanding about conditionality. Why would > it then "recommend" overlooking this and instead encourage being > involved in some particular conventional activity? Maybe it was the accepted setting for doing such observation. It sounds almost > like a contradiction, not giving due consideration to the reality of > "now" and expecting that one will have insight when involved in some > activity of choice at another time. :-/ We are always doing something. The question is whether it is a helpful, skillful and wholesome activity or not. The setting of meditation is a very familiar one for all ancient Buddhists, and probably the writers of the Abdhidhamma as well. I do not believe that meditation was separate from Buddhism in the beginning, nor is it now. I will try to find the reference and confirm if it was indeed the Patthana. Best, Robert ========================= #95873 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 1 sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Brief replies - KS's initial comments on each. More detailed comments later from Nina when she's listened to her recordings. --- On Thu, 12/2/09, szmicio wrote: >1) Self is so much involved in our daily life. We think about things and people. What is the way which leads to eradiction of wrong view? .... - When there is no understanding, impossible. Step by step! .... >2) Can pa~n~na arise without hearing Dhamma? .... - Panna which understands kamma only (in general, not the exact moment). .... >3) Should we know characteristic of each akusala? .... - Understanding develops little by little. Like just a drop of panna in between the kalapas. [Usually, there is lobha arising between the sense door processes like space between the kalapas of rupas]. Lobha arises so often -just understand that. Don't try to get rid of it, otherwise it's another lobha. Just understand it. ... >4) No one can start to think in the right way. No one can understand if he wants to understand. Instead of kusala there is a lot of akusala. We talkin about developing understanding, but what we call development it's just a few conditioned moments which arise on its own conditions. Thinking is conditioned. Sati is conditioned, Right understanding is conditioned. Sila is conditioned. Reading and considering Dhamma is conditioned. We think about ourselves all the day. But it's also conditioned. No one can do anything, there is no self which can change realities. ... - That's right. That's the path. ... >But notion of "Self" is so strong, it determines all our akusala and we take it for ourselves. Sould we lead normal life? .... - That's the problem -why try when it's already normal? It's normal already by conditions. ... >5) Does right thinking leads to right understanding? .... - Yes and they arise together. ... >6) What if there is a lot of akusala, can there be still right understanding? .... - Akusala for panna to see! Right understanding can understand anything. ... >8) What if we fight on account of Dhamma, if we don't lead proper life, if we are involved in [un?]pleasant feelings, can there be still pa~n~na? ... - It seems like panna cannot understand unpleasant feeling. It can understand anything. It depends on conditions what arises. ... >9) What if there is akusala and there is no understanding? .... - It will lead to more and more akusala, more avijja. ... >10) What if we understand Dhamma on intelectual level, does it lead to right understanding in the future? ... - same answer! ... >11) I still take it all for Self. ... - same answer! [later - It's only the idea of self and 'how to?'. As understanding grows less idea of 'how to?'] ... >12) What about forgetfullness? I always relay on that there be less forgetfulness when I start to hear Dhamma. .... - all cetasikas are not-self. ... >13) Is it good to be with forgetfullness? I have no other choice. ... - The answer is there in the question. No choice! .... >14) If there is a lot of dosa in our life, is there any chance to develop more understanding? ... - silence! .... >15) What's with unplesant feelings? It hurts. .... - True! ... >16) What if we are involved in pleasant feelings. Should we first stop enjoying them to develop right understanding? " .... - OK, let's do it! Then he(Lukas) will answer "I can't, there are no conditions!!" ***** S: Our last session today, so if anyone has any further questions, please raise them in the next one hour!! Metta, Sarah ====== #95874 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > > Not my point. My point is that such moments are just as inherent > and > > most likely just as frequent as any other intentional activity, > > including meditation. > > I'm not sure what the "such moments" of intentional activity you > refer to here might be. As I've said, my understanding of the > development of the path as taught by the Buddha does not include the > undertaking of any intentional activity (as conventionally > understood). > > To repeat my earlier post (#95721), the arising of awareness/insight > is conditioned by the 'factors' of hearing the teachings > appropriately explained, reflecting on what has been heard and > relating what has been understood to the present moment, none of > which are "things to be done". That last one, "relating what has been understood to the present moment" is the subject of meditation, intentional or not. It can also be the subject of daily life, if it takes place that way. In any case, I was not talking about "intentional moments," I was talking about "moments of discernment" which can just as easily take place doing an "intentional activity," so called, as meditation, as another intentional activity, as reading sutta or discussing Dhamma. That was my point, not that there are intentional moments. > > No one seems to want to tackle this comparison > > directly and show why the meditation intention would lead to more > > akusala than the Abhidhamma commentary reading intention. Are they > > inherently different, or are all intentional activities subject to > the > > same dangers? > > The comparison has been addressed by a number of posters (!!), > including myself. > > See for example message #95627 where I said: > "Activity of any kind undertaken as a form of "practice" would fall > into the same category." How about reading sutta in order to understand Dhamma? How's that for an intentional form of practice? > If this is not clearly enough stated for you, please feel free to > press further on it ;-)) Addressing the simple questions above would do just fine. Thanks. Best, Robert E. ====================== #95875 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > > > Having a practice of "doing certain things, and not expecting or > > > controlling the results" strikes me as being a practical > > > impossibility, if not a contradiction in terms ;-)). > > > > Not really. I get into my car and intentionally drive, but I don't > > have the illusion that I control the traffic or the stop-lights. I > > adapt as I go. Even though I started out to get somewhere, I am > > dealing with each moment as it arises. > > My remarks were about doing something as part of a "practice". They > do not apply to doing something for some other reason altogether > (like wanting to get from A to B in your car). It's an analogy - isn't the idea of "practicing in order to develop sati and panna" a direct analogy to "driving in order to get from A to B." Please tell me where the analogy falls down. I thought the whole point of practice being a problem is that it *is* trying to "get somewhere completely different" from where one starts out instead of discerning the present moment as it is. > > The distinction is important, I think. When something is done as > part of a practice, it is done because (and only because) it is seen > as conducive to a certain result. Driving is seen as a way of getting somewhere. No one gets in a car and just drives around, except of course teenagers. Your point, I believe, is that no one sits in meditation without an external goal which makes the activity akusala and feeds the illusion of egoic control. Well I am saying that you can have a goal in mind and not spend your "practice" obsessing over it. No one reads sutta except to understand Dhamma - a goal, yet no one complains that it is akusala. Please explain. Best, Robert E. ======================= #95876 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > I think if we are frank with ourselves we would acknowledge that > any > > > such "practice" is driven by the desire for results. > > > > All life is driven by desire for results, including reading > > Abhidhamma. That is worthy of acknoledgment that there is no > "special > > footing" that is free from this. We work "with it" not "without > it." > > Yes, as a general statement, all life is driven by desire. This of > course does not preclude the occasional arising of kusala of > different levels, being moments that are not accompanied by or driven > by desire. My point, as usual, is not to deny this, but to challenge the notion that kusala is less likely to arise during meditation than during sutta reading or commentary study, and that there is an inherent deficit in meditation as an "intentional activity" compared to "dhamma reading" as an intentional activity. I am still waiting for a principled answer as to why anyone should not engage in meditation as an activity described by the Buddha any less than engage in consideration of the Dhamma as described by the Buddha. They are all activities that do not in themselves lend away from kusala, such as robbing, killing and defaming. > > > > > I think it might be > > > > more fruitful to include practice and volition in those things > that > > > > arise naturally due to conditions, than to exclude them as being > > > > akusala promotions of self. > > > > > > We need to keep in mind that the "things that arise naturally due > to > > > conditions" include wrong view and other forms of akusala. So if > we > > > allow ourselves to be lead by what arises naturally we are bound > to > > > end up being lead by wrong view. > > > > What do you mean by "allow ourselves to be led...?" Surely there > is > > no one to make such a decision? > > I understood you to be saying that the intention to meditate arises > naturally and as such it should not be excluded but should be > followed. You said we should not "allow ourselves to be led" in [the wrong direction.] That implies that we have a choice and that there is someone to make that decision. I am just questioning that, since I understand you to say that there is no ability to 'allow' anything, and that all that will happen according to conditions. > > My comment on that was that if one follows whatever arises naturally > one will end up following wrong view. Who is there to follow anything? I am asking the same question again, as it seems that you are implying a person with volition to make a choice. If so, I would like to know how this takes place amongst arising conditions within the principle of anatta, and why it would not apply equally to making choices in any other area. > > > > I'm simply setting out what I understand the Buddha to be saying > (not > > > making reference to personal experience). > > > > Why not? How can the understanding of what the Buddha is saying be > > meaningful if you are not applying it to personal experience? Where > > are the cittas occurring now? Surely you don't think the path > occurs > > in abstraction? Why not talk about what you experience? > > I see no value in talking about one's personal experience per se. > What is of value is the better understanding of the path as taught by > the Buddha. I respect your view; however there is no replacement for the teaching benefits of concrete examples, nor the authority brought forward by having personally proven something out in your own experience. There is a difference between understanding something theoretically and experiencing some part of it first-hand. My own view is that it is valuable to discuss what you actually know personally and what you believe on faith, principle or logic, and to distinguish the two. If someone wants to tell me the best way to ride a bicycle I will be very interested to know if they have ever ridden one themselves. > Of course, one's understanding of the teachings are bound to be > coloured by one's experience to date in the development of the path, > but those experiences are not themselves of any value in the > discussion. They do give some indication of the effect they have shown in each individual's experience. To me, sharing experiences when appropriate and using them as examples of the concrete application of the teachings is a very important part of sangha. One who has had a certain definitive experience can lead the way for others with more confidence. > > I think it is better to acknowledge that we do everything we do out > of > > intention and that none of it is arbitrary unless we practice > letting > > go. That may have an intention too, but it is a skill that can be > > developed. Otherwise, our seemingly selfless activities are just > > masking the self which lurks in the background and it never gets > > looked at directly or dealt with, just understood intellectually. > > I agree with you that everything we do (but not of course what we > experience) we do out of intention. > > However, I don't understand what you mean when you say "none of it is > arbitrary unless we practice letting go." > > I wouldn't agree that "letting go" is something that can be > "practised". It seems to me that any idea of having a practice of > "letting go" is bound to involve an idea of self. I do think that we practice one way or the other, or we wouldn't be on a path in the first place. The question is what happens within that. If there is an observation that there is clinging, I think that naturally leads to some slacking of that clinging. I think that is the key to sati, that when one sees something it instantly changes it to some extent. There doesn't have to be any self involved. And the results of such moments will accumulate. I don't see anything different in that view than in yours, but I am sure I am saying it the wrong way or in the wrong context. :-) Best, Robert E. ========================= #95877 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:28 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket / To Rob Ep 7 epsteinrob Hi Connie. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep, > > R: I am just saying that when you say "The Path" it is a concept, not something that you can experience in the moment apart from an abstract thought. Do you disagree with this? > > The eight path factors may be seen as cetasikas, but when we talk about "The Path" we are not experiencing those factors at that time, are we? It is a concept we are talking about, one that points us in the right direction. > > c: What I think about "The Path" is that each moment of our lives we are - as dictated by "Our Talk" or understanding, right or wrong - walking "Our Path", right or wrong. Factors of that path must be there at the time & something that could be directly experienced apart from abstract thought, so yea, I'll disagree. I am not saying "The Path" is not real. I am saying that when you talk about it you are referring to it as a concept. Guess I'll let that go now...... A few things to consider: > > KS IV, VII: $6 Kaamabhuu(ii) > [...] 'Inbreathing and outbreathing, housefather, is the activity of body; thought directed and sustained is the activity of speech; perception and feeling are the activity of mind.' [...] > > > Reprasing my earlier point less politely this time: asking about the colour or hardness of things that don't have those characteristics only makes one sound, well, like they're just blowing smoke. what is this in reference to? Did I ask about the hardness of a nama or something? > > I really don't equate reading with jhaana or anything, but then again, let's not rule out the possibility that kusala might arise during any activity. It's not about reading as a practice or anything, unless you want to think of getting acquainted with the good as practise. Yes, I do think of it as a practice just as much as meditation. If you are reading in order to 'get acquainted with the good' you are practicing just as much and just as hard as someone who is sitting following breath in order to "discern what is happening in the moment" while sitting and breathing. It is just as much an activity with an aim, ie, a practice. And your quote pretty much proves my point: > KS II, ch.XVI, $11 The robe > [...]'Wherefore also, Kassapa, thou must train thyself: - "Whatever doctrine I shall hear, bearing upon what is good, to all that doctrine I will hearken with attentive ear, digesting it, pondering on it, gathering it all up with my will." Statements: Thou must train thyself. To all that doctrine I will *hearken with attentive ear.* Digesting it. Pondering it. Gathering it all up with my **will.** It sounds like an awfully hard-working volitional intentional practice to me! And seems like it is supposed to be so. What happened to arising conditions doing all the work for you? To be as straightforward as you were in terms of 'blowing smoke' I find it amazingly difficult to countenance all the back-bending and contorting that goes on around here to keep from seeing **Thou must train Thyself** as an instruction! It's ludicrous! Do I need to repeat it? **Thou must train Thyself** Is that a description or an instruction? The point is not that there are no instructions, just that there is no one to instruct. And if that were clearly seen we could all avoid a lot of circumambulating around the plain meaning of the suttas. Best, Robert = = = = = = = = = = = = = #95878 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:41 pm Subject: Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. epsteinrob Hi Sarah and all. I still don't get the point - maybe I'm thick. In all that K. Sujin has said here I don't see any indication of how *not* meditating will lead to a greater degree of kusala, or lead one to know more directly whether the moment is kusala or not. Whether meditating or not, the same principle of conditions and panna will obtain. So why is anything wrong with meditating, as long as one does not have the presumption that one knows what will arise? The warnings are fine for meditation and non-meditation alike, as far as I can tell, and if one is inclined to meditate, based on this talk, I would say "go ahead, but don't expect it to be kusala all the time, and don't think you will know whether it is or isn't unless you have a moment of panna." And that in itself is good advice, but says nothing against meditation itself to me. I do yoga, as do some other people around here. And I do it because it seems to be good for me and good for my body. I don't have a particular goal I am trying to reach. It is just something I am inclined to do. Likewise with meditation although I do not do it as much. Likewise with running every other day. What is the problem? One comment below. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > I listened to the following discussion between a friend & KS (on KS's 80th birthday) and think that most people will find it interesting and controversial:-) > > The discussion was about meditation, samma samadhi and the Visuddhimagga passages. KS's last comment was that: "without right understanding, people just want to have it (samma samadhi), so it cannot be calm. It's attachment to having happy feeling or pleasant feeling only." But this does not have to be the case.... Best, Robert E. =================================== #95879 From: "connie" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:18 pm Subject: Re: for comment, etc: Disp 204 nichiconn dear lukas, pt, all, you wrote: "I esp. like this aarama.nattika on "objects"<203.>. I want to rise some questions on it, but when i find more time. Here are my present doubts." I like this whole Questionnaire section. Take your time. I'm slow and don't really have any answers, anyway but i'll try, as you suggest in another post, to be better about giving fuller quotes... lol. I think Yes to the following, though: L: So citta can review old moments of paths(which is citta) , old moments of phalas(which is citta) and also nibbana which is an object? Am I thinking in a good way? > Don't we also call phalasamaapatti phala cittas?: L: There are 4 phalasamaapatti which are the result of 4 magga-cittas. And then can be more if Nibbana is attained with jhana. c: You mean like this?: Guide to CMA ix.42: The attainment of fruition (phalasamaapatti) is a meditative attainment by which a noble disciple enters into supramundane absorption with Nibbaana as object. It is attained for the purpose of experiencing the bliss of Nibbaana here and now. The cittas that occur in this attainment are the fruition cittas corresponding to the disciple's level of realization. Thus each of the four grades of noble individuals can enter their own proper fruition attainment I'm also not sure (also a different thread) how you meant for us to go about studying the elements, bases and ??? chapters together, but who knows how things work out? Or who might join in. I think we need all the help we can get. peace, connie #95880 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:22 pm Subject: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation epsteinrob Hi Everyone. As we continue to talk about Abhidhamma and meditation in some threads, some quotes from Bikkhu Bodhi, with a comment at the end: From a Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma: To facilitate the understanding of experienced reality, the Abhidhamma embarks upon an elaborate analysis of the mind as it presents itself to introspective meditation. To this same stratum of literature also belongs the //Visuddhimagga//, "The Path of Purification," also composed by Buddhaghosa. Although this last work is primarily an encyclopaedic guide to meditation, its chapters on "the soil of understanding" (XIV-XVII) lay out the theory to be mastered prior to developing insight and thus constitute in effect a compact dissertation on Abhidhamma. 4. //Paramatthadipani-Tika//, "The Elucidation of the Ultimate Meaning," by Ledi Sayadaw. Ledi Sayadaw of Burma (1846-1923) was one of the greatest scholar-monks and meditation masters of the Theravada tradition in recent times. He was the author of over seventy manuals on different aspects of Theravada Buddhism, including philosophy, ethics, meditation practice, and Pali grammar. His //tika// created a sensation in the field of Abhidhamma studies because he pointed out 325 places in the esteemed //Vibhavini-tika// where he alleged that errors and misinterpretations had occurred... The ninth and final chapter of the //Sangaha// is concerned, not with theory, but with practice. This is the Compendium of Meditation Subjects. This chapter functions as a kind of summary of the //Visuddhimagga//. It concisely surveys all the methods of meditation exhaustively explained in the latter work, and it sets forth condensed accounts of the stages of progress in both systems of meditation, concentration and insight. Like the masterwork it summarizes, it concludes with an account of the four types of enlightened individuals and the attainments of fruition and cessation. This arrangement of the //Abhidhammattha Sangaha// perhaps serves to underscore the ultimate soteriological intent of the Abhidhamma. All the theoretical analysis of mind and matter finally converges upon the practice of meditation, and the practice culminates in the attainment of the supreme goal of Buddhism, the liberation of the mind by non-clinging. Robert E. comments: Please note that according to B. Bodhi, the culmination of the Abhidhamma in the Sangaha, as the Visuddhimagga, is a compendium of meditation practices which culminate in enlightenment. Is there doubt about the scholarship and understanding of Bikkhu Bodhi? Best, Robert E. ===================== #95881 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:46 pm Subject: meditation in the abhidhammatha sangaha epsteinrob In line with my last post, and with Sukin's question in mind regarding the mention of meditation as part of the structure of the Abhidhamma, I would like to quote a latter section of the Abhidhammatha Sangaha, which famously summarizes the entire Abhidhamma in brief. This is a section near the end which talks about the stages of liberative understanding in the final section on "Mental Culture." It is slightly long but instructive. There is also an interesting statement here, which I assume comes directly from the Abhidhamma that "He realizes that life is a mere flowing, a continuous undivided movement." This sounds a bit like a counterbalance to the isolated citta concept. Source: http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_9.htm 39. Kankhāvitaranavisuddhi - is the fourth 'Purity' which attempts to transcend skeptical doubts as regards cause and effect, the past, the present, and the future. This is called a purity because it removes the stain of erroneous views of 'chance', causelessness', etc. To achieve this purity one meditates on the various causes that tend to produce present mind and matter, and on the causes that sustain them in the present. He understands that present mind and matter at conception were conditioned by past ignorance, craving, grasping and Kamma, and, during lifetime, matter is conditioned by kamma, mind, seasonal phenomena, and edible food, while mind is sustained by the senses and their corresponding objects. Thus he realizes the second noble truth of the cause of suffering and rids himself of doubts. 40. Maggāmaggañānadassanavisuddhi - This is the fifth 'Purity'. The aspirant ho has cleared his doubts, meditates again with better understanding on the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha, and anattā. He realizes that life is a mere flowing, a continuous undivided movement. He finds no genuine happiness, for every form of pleasure is only a prelude to pain. What is transient is painful, and where change and sorrow prevail there cannot be a permanent ego or soul. The arising and passing away of conditioned things become very conspicuous to him. As he is thus absorbed in meditation he witnesses an aura (obhāso) emanating from his body as a result of his keen insight. He experiences also an unprecedented joy (pīti), happiness (sukha), and quietude (passaddhi). He becomes strenuous (paggaho) and even-minded (upekkhā). His religious fervour increases (adhimokkha), mindfulness (sati) strengthens, and wisdom (ñāna) ripens. Laboring under the misconception that he has attained Sainthood, chiefly owing to the presence of the aura, he yearns (nikanti) for this state of mind. Soon he realizes that these temptations are only impediments (upakkilesa) to Insight, and that he has not really attained Sainthood. Accordingly he endeavours to distinguish between the right and wrong path (maggāmaggañānadassana). It is called a 'purity because it clears up the misconception as regards the actual 'path'. He understands, 'This is the right path, that is the wrong path'. Best, Robert ====================== #95882 From: "connie" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:03 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket / To Rob Ep 7 nichiconn Hey RobEp, "Did I ask about the hardness of a nama or something?" > > Rob Ep: > The Path does not > > > exist as such by the way, it is a concept. Have you seen The Path? > > > What does it look like? How hard is it? Does it have a color? > > > > Sukin: The Path is the 4th Noble Truth. So it must be real. > > It is a guiding principle, a correct concept, but not an actuality except as a guiding concept. You cannot confuse a correct principal with something that exists as a dhamma in the world, can you? > > c: Real... people exist, dhammas rise and fall. would that be about right? > We can speak of bright and dark paths or subtlety making it hard, I suppose, but technically, you know, colour and hardness are rupas whereas the 8 path factors are cetasikas. You asked something similar before is why I interrupted. evidently, i thought so. RobEp: And your quote pretty much proves my point: > KS II, ch.XVI, $11 The robe > [...]'Wherefore also, Kassapa, thou must train thyself: - "Whatever doctrine I shall hear, bearing upon what is good, to all that doctrine I will hearken with attentive ear, digesting it, pondering on it, gathering it all up with my will." Statements: Thou must train thyself. To all that doctrine I will *hearken with attentive ear.* Digesting it. Pondering it. Gathering it all up with my **will.** It sounds like an awfully hard-working volitional intentional practice to me! And seems like it is supposed to be so. What happened to arising conditions doing all the work for you? c: i don't have an argument with you and don't have a point to prove. i just like to read. afaic, our whole lives are our "practice", most of it akusala. how can it not be conditioned and why make things sound personal? generally speaking, i'm not convinced people know what they're talking about when it comes to "meditation". anyway, pardon the interruption. thanks, connie #95883 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Andrew (& Sobhana), > > --- Andrew wrote: > > > > Can anyone recommend a good article on Anatta? Which Bhikkhu has > > written the best essay on Anatta? > > > > Hi Sobhana > > > > Try the essay "Soullessness - Anattalakkana Sutta" by Bhikkhu > > Dhammapala in Wheel Publication no. 132/133/134 "Touching the Essence: > > Six Lectures on Buddhism" by Bhikkhu Dhammapala (Henri van Zeyst). > ... > S: I don't believe it's on-line is it? Do you have short extracts you'd > care to share? I think you may have quoted one or two before. > > How about one para a week for discussion? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > Hello Sarah, (Andrew, Sobhana), all, Doing my usual reading in the Useful Posts section - and on "anatta" (which is also 'as usual'), I came across this post of yours asking about a Wheel Publication which Andrew had mentioned to Sobhana {a couple of years ago now :-)}. It is on-line (not sure if anyone else gave the link). "Soullessness" by Bhikkhu Dhammapaala, Udawatte Temple, Kandy. (March 15th, 2487–1944.) http://www.bps.lk/wheels_library/wh_132_133.html#_Toc165017908 metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #95884 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:31 pm Subject: RFC - Dispeller 202-207(Questionnaire) szmicio The Dispeller of Delusion states: "202. Now there is the questionnaire(pa~nhapucchaka). Herein, as regards the asking of the questions, after asking about all that which is and which is not applicable by means of method beginning with pa~ncanna.m khandhaana.m kati kusala kati akusala kati avyaakataa? ("How many of the five aggregates are profitable, how many are unprofitable, how many are undetermined?") <61.28>, as regards the answering, only what is applicable should be understood as brought in by the method beginning with ruupakhandho avyaakato ("The materiality aggregate is undeterminated")<62.1>. And wherever, without defining as "one aggregate" or "two aggregates", the text is laid down by the method beginning with siyaa uppannaa, siyaa anuppannaa ("maybe arisen, maybe unarisen") (traid 17), there inclusion of [all] the five aggregates should be understood. The remaining classification of such and such states as "profitable" and so on is stated above in the commentary on the Dhammasangaha. 203. But as regards the "objects" triads (aaramma.nattika) (nos.13,16,19, 21) <62.39>, four aggregates have limited objects (parittaaramma. na) in one who lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who comprehends, who reviews, through being instigated by the 55 states of the sense sphere. They have expanded objects (mahaggataaramma. na) in one who lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who establishes the laying hold through being instigated by the 27 fine-material and immaterial states; they have boundless objects (appamaa.naaramma. na) in one who reviews through being instigated by paths, fruition and nibbaana. At the time of reviewing a concept they should not be said to have [such] objects (na vattabbaaramma. naa) <62.41>. 204. These too, at the time of reviewing the trainees'(sekha) and non- trainees(asekha) paths <63.5>, have the paths as object (maggaaramma.na). They have the paths as root-cause (maggahetuka) throught its being conascent root-cause at the time of the path. They have the path as predominance(maggaadhipati) through object predominance by giving weight to the path at the time of reviewing. And they have the path as predominance througt conascent predominance in one who develops the path with energy(viriya) foremost or investigation(viima.msaa) foremost. They should not be said to have such objects in one who develops [the path] with zeal(chanda) foremost or consiousness(citta) foremost. 205. They have a past object (atiitaarama.na) <63.11> in one who lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains , who establises the laying hold through being instigated by past aggregates, elements and bases(aayatana); they have a future object through being instigated by past future [aggregates etc.]; they have a present object through being instigated by present [aggregates etc.]. In one reviewing a concept or nibbana, they should not be said to have [such] objects. 206. Likewise they have an internal object (ajjhattaarammana)<63.16> in one who lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who establishes laying hold through being instigated by his own internal aggregates, elements and bases; they have an external object in one who produces them thus through beinng instigated by another's aggregates, elements and bases; they also have an external object at the time of reflecting on a concept(pa~n~nati) or on nibbana; they have an internal-external object in one who produces them thus with regard to states at one time internally and at another time externally. At the time of the sphere of notthingness they should be understood as not to be said to have [such] objects. 207. Thus the Blessed One showed the Classification of the Aggregates (Khandhavibha" nga) by bringing in three cycles beginning with the Suttanta Division (Suttantabhaajaniya ). And as regards the three cycles, there is only one way of dividing up [according to plane]; for the materiality aggregate is everywhere of the sense sphere only; the four [mental] aggregates, being of the four planes, are expounded as mundane and supramundane." #95885 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:58 pm Subject: Re: RFC - Dispeller 202-207(Questionnaire) szmicio Dear Connie Disp: "202. Now there is the questionnaire(pa~nhapucchaka). Herein, as regards the asking of the questions, after asking about all that which is and which is not applicable by means of method beginning with pa~ncanna.m khandhaana.m kati kusala kati akusala kati avyaakataa? ("How many of the five aggregates are profitable, how many are unprofitable, how many are undetermined?") <61.28>, L: pa~ncanna.m khandha kati kusala kati akusala kati avyaakataa. So all this section should deal with whether aggregates are kusala, akusala or avyakata? Disp: as regards the answering, only what is applicable should be understood as brought in by the method beginning with ruupakhandho avyaakato ("The materiality aggregate is undeterminated")<62.1>. L: what is that what is applicable? any pali term for it? So now we know that rupa is avyaakata dhamma. ------------- Disp: And wherever, without defining as "one aggregate" or "two aggregates", the text is laid down by the method beginning with siyaa uppannaa, siyaa anuppannaa ("maybe arisen, maybe unarisen") L: This word siyaa is fun. I found it when i read patthana, and i've got some problems with it. What does this word stess? Here it's pretty clear bu in patthana, section on hetupaccaya it isnt. "(1.) Kusalapada.m 25. Siyaa kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca kusalo dhammo uppajjeyya hetupaccayaa. Siyaa kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca akusalo dhammo uppajjeyya hetupaccayaa. Siyaa kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca abyaakato dhammo uppajjeyya hetupaccayaa. Siyaa kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca kusalo ca abyaakato ca dhammaa uppajjeyyu.m hetupaccayaa. Siyaa kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca akusalo ca abyaakato ca dhammaa uppajjeyyu.m hetupaccayaa. Siyaa kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca kusalo ca akusalo ca dhammaa uppajjeyyu.m hetupaccayaa. Siyaa kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca kusalo ca akusalo ca abyaakato ca dhammaa uppajjeyyu.m hetupaccayaa." (3.Pucchavaro) L: So "kusala dhammas are related to kusala dhammas by way of hetupaccaya. kusala dhammas are related to akusala dhammas by way of hetupaccaya....." Or maybe "kusala dhammas arise because of kusala dhammas by way of hetupaccaya....."??? What siyaa means here? My best wishes Lukas #95886 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:15 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "53. Herein, all signifies inclusion without exception. Beings (satta): they are held (satta), gripped (visatta) by desire and greed for the aggregates beginning with materiality, thus they are beings (satta). For this is said by the Blessed One: 'Any desire for matter, Raadha, any greed for it, any delight in it, any craving for it, has held (satta) it, has gripped (visatta) it, that is why 'a being' (satta) is said' (S.iii,190). But in ordinary speech this term of common usage is applied also to those who are without greed, just as the term of common usage is applied 'palm fan' (taalavanta) is used for different sorts of fans [in general] even if made of split bamboo. However, [in the world] etymologists (akkhara-cintaka) who do not consider meaning have it that it is a mere name, while those who consider meaning have it that a 'being' (satta) is so called with reference to the 'bright principle' (satta)." Path of Purity. "'Beings': i.e. because they are entangled, fast entangled through lust of desire concerned with the five aggregates. This indeed has been said by the Blessed One: 'That desire, Raadha, that lust, that lure, that craving which is concerned with the body, - entangled thereby, fast entangled thereby: therefore is one called a being. That desire, that lust, that craving, that lure which is concerned with feeling, with perception, the activities, consciousness, - entangled thereby, fast entangled thereby: therefore is one called a being' (Kindred Sayings iii, p. 156; There is a pun here on satta, beings - from sat - and sattaa, bound, entangled - from saj). In popular language the term is also applied to those who are without lust, just as a special kind of fan, (though) made of split bamboo, is yet called a palmyra fan. But the grammarians without investigating the meaning wish to regard it as a mere name. Those who investigate the meaning wish to derive a being (satta) from force (satva)." Tattha sabbeti anavasesapariyaadaanameta.m. Sattaati ruupaadiisu khandhesu chandaraagena sattaa visattaati sattaa. Vutta~nheta.m bhagavataa â€" Ruupe kho, raadha, yo chando yo raago yaa nandii yaa ta.nhaa, tatra satto, tatra visatto, tasmaa sattoti vuccati… vedanaaya… sa~n~naaya… sa.nkhaaresu… vi~n~naa.ne yo chando yo raago yaa nandii yaa ta.nhaa, tatra satto, tatra visatto, tasmaa sattoti vuccatii 'ti (sa.m. ni. 3.161). Ru.lhiisaddena pana viitaraagesupi aya.m vohaaro vattatiyeva, viliivamayepi biijanivisese taalava.n.tavohaaro viya. Akkharacintakaa pana attha.m avicaaretvaa naamamattametanti icchanti. Yepi attha.m vicaarenti, te satvayogena sattaati icchanti. Sincerely, Scott. #95887 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:09 pm Subject: Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. epsteinrob Hi James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > James: Now, here it gets a bit fuzzy. Traditional Theravada > teachings are supposed to include all three baskets plus the > commentaries. The commentaries suggest that there are two "paths" > to enlightenment... Is it an established fact that the "Traditional Theravada" includes the commentaries? Or is this in any dispute? Obviously the Tipitaka itself is the body of Theravadin teachings, so I am wondering what the status of the commentaries really is. Thanks, Robert E. ======================== #95888 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:27 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket / To Rob Ep 7 epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Hey RobEp, > > "Did I ask about the hardness of a nama or something?" > > > > > Rob Ep: > The Path does not > > > > exist as such by the way, it is a concept. Have you seen The Path? > > > > What does it look like? How hard is it? Does it have a color? Thanks for letting me know what you were referring to. I was using an extreme example to point out that the path is not a "thing" you can put your finger on. It's a concept that we refer to. At any given moment there is a nama or rupa present, but the Path never arises as a nama or rupa other than as a concept or a thought or an idea. The four noble truths are also concepts. Everything that is not a presence in the moment is a concept. If you see that something is anicca in the moment then you can say in that moment that you perceive directly anicca. At other times when you talk about it you are referencing it as a concept, because it is not present at that moment. So things are concepts or realities depending on whether you are actually in contact with it at that moment or not. When you are not in contact with something and you think of it, it is not present as the thing you are talking about at that moment. At the moment you reference it when it isn't there, it only exists as a concept, an idea or an image. "The Path" may refer to a process that is real, but at any given moment "The Path" as a whole is an idea. I hope that makes sense. Best, Robert E. ============================ #95889 From: "connie" Date: Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:26 pm Subject: RFC - Dispeller 202-207(Questionnaire) nichiconn Dear Lukas, Thanks for typing out the Questionnaire! not quite ready to thank you (or Scott) for not letting a person be lethargic about Striking up Acquaintances with Pali when I've been kinda settled down cozy enough with just the English for awhile now. I still think that for most questions dealing with paa.li, it would be better if someone else answers. I -uh- "have a way with words" they say, but I'm not sure what they really mean. But never mind that, here's the pali to go with your work and a couple thoughts on your questions: 150. Idaani pa~nhaapucchaka.m hoti. "202. Now there is the questionnaire(pa~nhapucchaka). Tattha pa~nhaapucchane pa~ncanna.m khandhaana.m ''katikusalaa? Katiakusalaa? Katiabyaakataa''tiaadinaa nayena ya.m labbhati, ya~nca na labbhati, ta.m sabba.m pucchitvaa vissajjane ''ruupakkhandho abyaakato''tiaadinaa nayena ya.m labbhati tadeva uddha.tanti veditabba.m. Herein, as regards the asking of the questions, after asking about all that which is and which is not applicable by means of method beginning with pa~ncanna.m khandhaana.m kati kusala kati akusala kati avyaakataa? ("How many of the five aggregates are profitable, how many are unprofitable, how many are undetermined?") <61.28>, as regards the answering, only what is applicable should be understood as brought in by the method beginning with ruupakhandho avyaakato ("The materiality aggregate is undeterminated")<62.1>. ======= L: pa~ncanna.m khandha kati kusala kati akusala kati avyaakataa. So all this section should deal with whether aggregates are kusala, akusala or avyakata? L: what is that what is applicable? any pali term for it? So now we know that rupa is avyaakata dhamma. c: "applicable", labbhaa (ind.) possible; allowable; may be obtained. Disp 176-201 relies pretty heavily on this word, telling us which functions the different classes of consciousness can perform and other ways, i think we could say, the methods of insight apply. I don't find right now where <62.1> comes from. It seems to me it's more the nature or quality (internal, past, mundane, etc) of the object that is considered in the whole questionnaire. ======== Yattha yattha ca 'eko khandho'ti vaa 'dve khandhaa'ti vaa pariccheda.m akatvaa ''siyaa uppannaa, siyaa anuppannaa''tiaadinaa nayena tanti .thapitaa, tattha tattha pa~ncannampi khandhaana.m gaha.na.m veditabba.m. And wherever, without defining as "one aggregate" or "two aggregates", the text is laid down by the method beginning with siyaa uppannaa, siyaa anuppannaa ("maybe arisen, maybe unarisen") (traid 17), there inclusion of [all] the five aggregates should be understood. Seso tesa.m tesa.m khandhaana.m kusalaadivibhaago he.t.thaa dhammasa"ngaha.t.thakathaaya.m (dha. sa. a.t.tha. 985) vuttoyeva. The remaining classification of such and such states as "profitable" and so on is stated above in the commentary on the Dhammasangaha. ======= Best I can do for 'siyaa' is to have you look in the PTS Dictionary under "atthi" (translated "which is" in the applied insight section just before this). Where Disp says: siyaa uppannaa, siyaa anuppannaa ("maybe arisen, maybe unarisen"), read "maybe" as two words "may be". peace, connie #95890 From: "connie" Date: Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:30 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket / To Rob Ep 7 nichiconn Hi again Rob Ep, another "train thusly" I like is in SN when Buddha tells the monks to 'Learn, bhikkhus, the Taayana-verses! Learn them by heart, for the verses of Taayana bear upon your good and belong to the rudiments of the holy life.' (KS I ch.II, 1.$8) I understand "using an extreme example" to make something clearer, but don't see any benefit in describing something as inaccurately as possible whether it's right there or not... i mean the fog's bad enough without it smelling like smoke, too. anyway, was glad to see you reading the Sangaha. I looked in the other two English translations and couldn't see anything that looked like (life being) "a mere flowing, a continuous undivided movement"; nor in either chapter the Vism devotes to each of the purities you mentioned. But does that say anything about the impermanence of conditioned realities subject to rise and fall? "Life" is but a moment. "The Life" is for the ending of continuity. Rephrasing my earlier proposal: people continue in conventional existence while in ultimate reality, dhammas rise and fall. I also really like this: KS I ch.I, 2. The 'Paradise' Suttas, $10 Samiddhi [...] Then the Exalted One addressed the fairy in verses: - Men, 'ware alone of what is told by names, Take up their stand on what is so expressed. If this they have not rightly understood, They go their ways under the yoke of death. [...] Some might have it that my mom is concept if i talk about her behind her back whereas if we're face to face, she's suddenly real. I say she's conceptual either time, while with a thing considered ultimately real, the name at all times refers to what is ultimately real. 'My mother' does not point directly to ultimate realities; that is, there is no instant or instance of an ultimate reality known by 'mother'. I wanted to say 'as' mother, but we do mistake the whole for a part and other such (grievous) things. and that's just more or part of whatever 'works for us'... rule by conditions and not-existing outside of them. so why speak of impersonal separate realities? i dunno, read the books that do it and see what they say. then, i think you'll appreciate the commentaries; i'd almost say you won't appreciate Abhidhamma without them but that's me. are they (Abhi & Comm) the meditation manuals? seems we like to think so. do i think people here discourage true meditation? no. are we going to mean / understand that differently? no doubt, but let's not assume agreement is righteous, either. speaking of "status", how about the -uh- post-modern 'commentator' Ledi Sayadaw? CMA considers him along with the two -uh- earlier traditional - writers or reciters, as the case may have been. As with any other separate translations, between those two Sangahas and the Summary/Exposition, I think there are three different books... lol... at myself jumping from bowl to bowl when the same things are said everywhere in this great round teaching of a singular taste. pardon my mixing Threads/Subjects, too; limited interruptions? peace, connie #95891 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:55 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket / To Rob Ep 7 epsteinrob have --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Hi again Rob Ep, > > another "train thusly" I like is in SN when Buddha tells the monks to 'Learn, bhikkhus, the Taayana-verses! Learn them by heart, for the verses of Taayana bear upon your good and belong to the rudiments of the holy life.' (KS I ch.II, 1.$8) well there are 'train thuslies' all over the place. one can translate them out of existence with a little artifice, but they are pretty obvious. > > I understand "using an extreme example" to make something clearer, but don't see any benefit in describing something as inaccurately as possible whether it's right there or not... what is inaccurate? and btw, I would agree that inaccuracy is not a good thing. so what are you referring to? i mean the fog's bad enough without it smelling like smoke, too. > > anyway, was glad to see you reading the Sangaha. I looked in the other two English translations and couldn't see anything that looked like (life being) "a mere flowing, a continuous undivided movement"; what did it say for that passage? > nor in either chapter the Vism devotes to each of the purities you > mentioned. I didn't compare versions, I took what I found. > But does that say anything about the impermanence of conditioned realities subject to rise and fall? it makes a difference what you are seeing, if there are little independent thingie-moments that rise and fall each, or if there is a continuous shifting formfulness that is not defined because it is ultimately insubstantial. "Life" is but a moment. "The Life" is for the ending of continuity. Rephrasing my earlier proposal: people continue in conventional existence while in ultimate reality, dhammas rise and fall. It is possible that rising and falling "dhammas," rather than the other way around. > > I also really like this: KS I ch.I, 2. The 'Paradise' Suttas, $10 Samiddhi > [...] Then the Exalted One addressed the fairy in verses: - BTW, what kind of dhamma is a fairy? > Men, 'ware alone of what is told by names, > Take up their stand on what is so expressed. > If this they have not rightly understood, > They go their ways under the yoke of death. > [...] and nicely poeticized as well into iambic pentameter. > Some might have it that my mom is concept if i talk about her behind her back whereas if we're face to face, she's suddenly real. I say she's conceptual either time, right > while with a thing considered ultimately real, the name at all times refers to what is ultimately real. if there is such. > 'My mother' does not point directly to ultimate realities; that is, there is no instant or instance of an ultimate reality known by 'mother'. I wanted to say 'as' mother, but we do mistake the whole > for a part and other such (grievous) things. So what is the ultimate reality known as "The Path?" What is it as a reality? > > and that's just more or part of whatever 'works for us'... rule by conditions and not-existing outside of them. so why speak of impersonal separate realities? i dunno, read the books that do it and see what they say. then, i think you'll appreciate the commentaries; i'd almost say you won't appreciate Abhidhamma without them but that's me. are they (Abhi & Comm) the meditation manuals? seems we like to think so. do i think people here discourage true meditation? no. they discourage what almost every Buddhist in the world considers meditation. And my point is that the Abhidhamma is not in agreement with this, but believes the two work together. And so do I. > are we going to mean / understand that differently? no doubt, but > let's not assume agreement is righteous, either. One might want to go back to the Abhidhamma and sutta body to ascertain this, rather than each making up our own definition. If we are Buddhists. > speaking of "status", how about the -uh- post-modern 'commentator' Ledi Sayadaw? CMA considers him along with the two -uh- earlier traditional - writers or reciters, as the case may have been. As with any other separate translations, between those two Sangahas and the Summary/Exposition, I think there are three different books... shows how malleable it is. easy to shape translation by one's own philosophy, even if one knows Pali. > lol... at myself jumping from bowl to bowl when the same things are said everywhere in this great round teaching of a singular taste. so what does it taste like, this single taste? > pardon my mixing Threads/Subjects, too; limited interruptions? uninterrupted peace, interrupted by delusion. Best, Robert =========================== #95892 From: "colette" Date: Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:49 am Subject: And the last shall be the first, no? ksheri3 have Hi Christine, Good point! > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > colette: we who practice "tantra" and other means of cognition have found a lack of continuity within this concept of TIME. Can a person actually possess TIME? Is TIME something that can be possessed? Is TIME nothing more than a means of gratifying the supporsed "self"? "The Sarvastivadans attempt to reconcile the dhramic anaylis of mind with the diachronic phenomena of karma, klesa, and their gradual removal along the path presents an interesting contrast to the SAutrantika concept of seeds, since it avoids involving vijnana altogether. Rather than resorting to a metaphor denoting the continuous potential of such phenomena, they proposed an ontology in which dharmas exist throughout the three times (past, present, and future). This was arugued on the grounds that if past causes did not exist, then no longer being present, they could not lead to future results. In on of the Sarvastivadin interpretations, what distinguishes a dharma as present is its 'activity' (karitra), that is, whether or not it has the capacity to condtion the occurence of another dharma." So, to your point, involving the concept of possessing the time to occur changes in the essence of this supposed "self", atta, THEN we are not speaking in any way of a "self" but of a "residue" or a trace of that which we seek? PARDON MY LACK OF SPELLING AND IGNORANCE -- I HAVE NO INTENT ON INFRINGING UPON THE SCIENCE OF PHYSICS AND WOULD APPRECIATE THE ASSISTANCE OF BILL HEIDRICK CONCERNING SUCH MATTERS. Neutrinos which are very similar to dark matter are like this. A better view would be the PROVERBIAL BLACK HOLE. I'm sure that if I study Buddhism enough I will find my answer but I'm gonna be forced to go with the WEstern concept of a "god" and a "devil" -- did god exist without first being a devil or did the devil exist without first which having a god? They both cannot exist without the other which clearly shows DEPENDENT ORIGINATION. Therefore, is the "Black Hole" a god or a devil? Gods and devils are human's way of describing conditions since they represent good feelings, bad feelings and nuetral feelings. Did the feelings or sensations exist prior to the contact, intersection, tangence, with the other occurance? What manifested the feeling or sensation of good before there was a "god" and what manifested the feeling or sensation of bad before there was a devil? Why is good associated with pleasurable feelings while bad is associated with negative feelings? In the summer of 1978 while I was re-cooperating from the first Near Death Experience I had in an automobile accident I clearly recall questioning the concepts of "the sun" and "the moon", therefore leading me to question the concepts of "light" and "dark". My point or position was that I had no imput into the determination of what defined these things in the sky which means that there was no way I could be sure that the sun was actually the sun or if it was actually the moon. <...> So how can we measure time if not through space? Is time worthy of being measured? Isn't time nothing more than a trinket that distracts the attention and meditation? <...> Are they here or there? When exactly is the Present Dharma? When does the Present Dharma become the Past Dharma? When will the Present Dharma become the Future Dharma? <...> toodles, colette #95893 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:20 pm Subject: Re: RFC - Dispeller 202-207(Questionnaire) szmicio have Dear Connie Disp: "203. But as regards the "objects" triads (aaramma.nattika) (nos.13,16,19, 21) <62.39>, four aggregates have limited objects (parittaaramma. na) in one who lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who comprehends, who reviews, through being instigated by the 55 states of the sense sphere. They have expanded objects (mahaggataaramma. na) in one who lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who establishes the laying hold through being instigated by the 27 fine-material and immaterial states; they have boundless objects (appamaa.naaramma. na) in one who reviews through being instigated by paths, fruition and nibbaana. At the time of reviewing a concept they should not be said to have [such] objects (na vattabbaaramma. naa) <62.41>." ------------------------- Disp: "203. But as regards the "objects" triads (aaramma.nattika) (nos.13,16,19, 21) <62.39>, four aggregates have limited objects (parittaaramma. na) in one who lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who comprehends, who reviews, through being instigated by the 55 states of the sense sphere. L: Has limited objects. What does it refers to? In what sense they are limited? Any pali term for one who lusts,who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who comprehands, who reviews? There is 55 kamavacara cittas? ------------ Disp: "They have expanded objects (mahaggataaramma. na) in one who lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who establishes the laying hold through being instigated by the 27 fine-material and immaterial states;" L:What does expanded object refers to? 27 fine-material and imaterial states,so it refers to rupavacara and arupavacara cittas, isnt it? ----------- Disp:"they have boundless objects (appamaa.naaramma. na) in one who reviews through being instigated by paths, fruition and nibbaana. At the time of reviewing a concept they should not be said to have [such] objects (na vattabbaaramma. naa) <62.41>." L: What does boundless objects refers to? "At the time of reviewing a concept they should not be said to have [such] objects (na vattabbaaramma. naa) <62.41>." L: I like it. This "object" classification is very useful. My best wishes Lukas #95894 From: "connie" Date: Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:35 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket / To Rob Ep 7 nichiconn have Dear Rob Ep, > anyway, was glad to see you reading the Sangaha. I looked in the other two English translations and couldn't see anything that looked like (life being) "a mere flowing, a continuous undivided movement"; R: what did it say for that passage? c: that's just it, it's not there; it might be as you say later: "easy to shape translation by one's own philosophy, even if one knows Pali." Then again, it's not always as obvious as, for instance, when he happens to mention Mrs RD, where Narada's left off translating altogether and just started talking. Same point, i think, as Scott was making about Nanamoli's "interpolating practice". And, I think, the same kind of 'reasoning' is going on when people say DSG discourages 'meditating' any more than 'reading' if & when either are done with wrong understanding. from KS version of Taayana's verses: Not done, for us, is better than ill done; Ill done will burn us in the time to come. well, there's danger in the slightest fault. that's all. peace, connie #95895 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:54 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket / To Rob Ep 7 epsteinrob Hi Connie. > > well, there's danger in the slightest fault. that's all. I guess I am not a fan of living my life by avoiding the biggest possible set of imagined dangers, rather than going forward with what may be correct. I'd rather explore and find out than sit and worry. Best, Robert - - - - - - - - - - #95896 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:52 pm Subject: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 6 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, (esp. Scott, Connie & Larry), A few more points, in no particular order, relating to DSG discussions, cryptic as usual, so feel very free to ignore or ask for clarification: ..... 1. Suttanta vs Abhidhamma methods - the realities are the same. Just different ways of explaining, but pointing to just the same paramattha dhammas. What's in Suttanta is also in Abhidhamma. .... 2. Extending merit to other beings - further clarifications. If it's kusala, we don't have to think about what it's called. With regard to the dead and other realms, metta cannot develop when there is not a person as object. It depends on the thinking whether it's kusala or just with attachment. Metta can only be extended when there are jhana cittas. .... 3. Scott's quotes from MN48 on 'the great reviewing knowledges' (mahapaccavekkha.na~naa.na) and my comments#91578, #92159, #92039. Even though given as seven, refering to the 5 kinds of reviewing knowledging following ariyan attainment. .... 4. Connie's questionable quote of Lama Govinda's #93371. "Thus 'vi~n~naa.na paccaya sa'nkhaara' is just as correct as 'sa'nhkhaara paccaya vi~n~naana'..." etc. It all depends on the understanding of these terms.....{What did YOU think about it, Connie?] .... 5. Anusayas (latent tendencies), asavas (intoxicants), as arising in sense-door processes even following sense consciousness and nivaranas (hindrances) which are stronger and hinder kusala. Ariyans referred to as being without asavas (to degrees anusayas eradicated -implied already). The arahat is kinasava, the one who has destroyed all asavas. .... 6. Nina & Larry's Vism & Tiika #90046 on D.O. All links as cause and result with regard to 4NT by way of paccaya and paccayupanna. Kusala and akusala kamma 'with asavas' (saasava), "and that is: objects of defilements, aasavas." The object reference referring to how they have to be known as object....(?). [Larry, Jon and I were chatting to a family of Buddhists from Boulder, Colarado at our hotel. The interest seems to be in Tibetan Buddhism mostly in the area, is that right?] .... 7. Bhumis as referring to 'realm' of cittas and realms of rebirth as determined by patisandhi and according to what predominates. See Connie's helpful CMA quote in #95849. .... 8. Did I mention the other day the reference to 'reading the book all day' as those stories proliferate? Thinking so much in a day with kilesa, like reading a novel all the time. After seeing the sign, thinking about all the signs and details. Without nimitta of reality, no concepts, no novel. After seeing, nimitta. .... to be contd. Metta, Sarah ====== #95897 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:57 pm Subject: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 7 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, (esp. Swee Boon, Connie, Lukas & Scott) contd. 9. Swee Boon's #90100 on dreams. An anagami no longer has angry (or sensuous) dreams, an arahat doesn't dream at all, but we can't say a sotapanna "no longer has nightmarish dreams." Accumulations! .... 10. Connie & Lukas on khandhas #95799. C:"3. Khandhaa ("aggregates") is the description of things so divided. And here this word: is met with in many instances as a heap (raasi), as a good quality (gu.na), as a designation (pa.n.natti), and as a category (ruu.lhi). It is also permissible to say in the sense of a portion (ko.t.thaasa). thus it is also permissible to say that an aggregate (khandha) has the characteristic of a portion. 4. So here ruupakkhanda <1.1> ("materiality aggregate") [means] materiality heap, materiality portion. Vedanaakkhanda ("feeling aggregate") [means] feeling heap, feeling portion, and in like manner the meaning of the perception aggregate and so on should be understood." - heap (raasi) - including all khandhas. No rupa or (conditioned) nama excluded. Each one is khandha. - good quality (gu.na) - usually what one likes to experience. - portion (ruu.lhi) - each one, each instance. (like the 32 parts of the body). ... 11. Conditioned and unconditioned space (aakasa ruupa). A qu about breathing in space. Where there are no mahabuta rupas, there is space. It's unseen, but there, for example in the apertures. (For those who asked, see my comments on 'space' before in U.P. 'Space' - the more recent ones). .... 12. Prompted and unprompted cittas (sasankhaara and asankhaara). Thina and midha (sloth and torpor) with prompted cittas only. I asked about the use of terms sasankhaara and asankhaara in the description of the 5 kinds of anagami (non-returner) spontaneiously reborn in the Suddhaavaasa (Pure Abodes) realm #93748, as I referred to this before. Asankhaara - without difficulty, sasankhaara - with difficulty. Some reference to the asankhaara as having eradicated the 5 samyojanas (fetters).,but not clear to me. See Alberto's note on samyojana and ariyans in #93748. Also, from Nyantiloka's dict: "There are 10 fetters (samyojana)tying beings to the wheel of existence, namely: • (1) personality-belief (sakaaya-ditthi) • (2) sceptical doubt (vicikiccaa) • (3) clinging to mere rules and ritual (siilabbata-paraamaasa; s. upaadaana) • (4) sensuous craving (kaama-raaga) • (5) ill-will (vyaapaada) • (6) craving for fine-material existence (ruupa-raaga) • (7) craving for immaterial existence (aruupa-raaga) • (8) conceit (maana) • (9) restlessness (uddhacca) • (10) ignorance (avijjaa) "The first five of these are called 'lower fetters' (orambhaagiya-samyojana), as they tie to the sensuous world. The latter 5 are called 'higher fetters' (uddhambhaagiya-samyojana), as they tie to the higher worlds, i.e. the fine-material and immaterial world (A.IX.67-68; A.X.13; D.33, etc.). • He who is free from 1-3 is a SotÄpanna, or Stream-winner, i.e. one who has entered the stream to Nibbaana, as it were. • He who, besides these 3 fetters, has overcome 4 and 5 in their grosser form, is called a Sakadaagaami, a 'Once-returner' (to this sensuous world). • He who is fully freed from 1-5 is an Anaagaamaa, or 'Non-returner' (to the sensuous world). • He who is freed from all the 10 fetters is called an Arahat, i.e. a perfectly Holy One." ****** All those anagamis as listed in #93747,who have attained 5th jhana must be rebornin Suddhaavaasa. The 5 types refer to different accumulations. Anyway, why fuss about such details when it's all so far off? KS: not interested in such details - I hear them, then forget them, then hear them again, forget again... .... 13. Scott's #95663: "627...Here ignorance is ....twofold as omissions and mistakes; likewise as prompted and unprompted..." "...appa.tipattimichaapat.tipatto duvidhaa tathaa sa"nkhaaraasa"nkhaarato...." Ignorance - cannot understand anything, doesn't have right or wrong view, cannot refer to prompted or unprompted ..... ..... 14. Sucarita (virtuous conduct) and ducarita (non-virtuous conduct) - see Nina's #94539. Du-carita, akusala cittas, doing harm, all levels - not just kusala and akusala kamma patha as suggested in the Nyt. dict. .... All conditioned, depends on panna what is known more and more. Metta, Sarah p.s. Also a typo in one of my other sets: Scott, on the Metta corner, I wrote somewhere about 'when nimitta is developed' when of course it should have read 'when metta is developed'. Also, apologies for long delays to all other messages - I hope to start catching up this week. [Nina returns to Holland tomorrow and we return to Hong Kong on Tuesday]. ========= #95898 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. jonoabb Hi Robert E > In any case, I was not talking about "intentional moments," I was > talking about "moments of discernment" which can just as easily take > place doing an "intentional activity," so called, as meditation, as > another intentional activity, as reading sutta or discussing Dhamma. Yes, understood. You are saying that moments of discernment (panna) can just as easily take place during meditation as during any other intentional activity, such as reading suttas or discussing Dhamma. As far as I know, the Buddha nowhere said or implied that the development of panna was a matter of undertaking intentional activity of any kind as a matter of a practice. To my understanding, the development of panna as described by the Buddha is, simply put, the re-arising of panna that has already been developed (to whatever degree). The conditions for that re-arising are to do with the repeated hearing of and reflecting on aspects of the teachings that are appropriate to that level of understanding. They do not include the carrying out of any specific activity. > > See for example message #95627 where I said: > > "Activity of any kind undertaken as a form of "practice" would fall > > into the same category." > > How about reading sutta in order to understand Dhamma? > How's that for an intentional form of practice? Reading suttas undertaken as a form of practice would fall into the same category as meditation undertaken as a form of practice. Undertaking either activity for other reasons, however, may not. For example, reading sutta extracts forming part of a message to an internet discussion group would presumably not be done as part of a practice and so could well be free from wrong view/idea of self. Likewise meditation undertaken because of its supposed health benefits. (No rule either way in either case.) > > If this is not clearly enough stated for you, please feel free to > > press further on it ;-)) > > Addressing the simple questions above would do just fine. Thanks. Please let me know if you feel the question has not been addressed. Jon #95899 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. jonoabb Hi Robert E > It's an analogy - isn't the idea of "practicing in order to develop > sati and panna" a direct analogy to "driving in order to get from A to > B." Please tell me where the analogy falls down. I thought the whole > point of practice being a problem is that it *is* trying to "get > somewhere completely different" from where one starts out instead of > discerning the present moment as it is. My point is that performing an activity for the reason that the very performing of that activity is understood to part of the development of the path necessarily involves, at any given moment, the development of either right view or wrong view; it cannot really be without either. Performing an activity for reasons other than that, however, does not *necessarily* involve either right view or wrong view. > > The distinction is important, I think. When something is done as > > part of a practice, it is done because (and only because) it is seen > > as conducive to a certain result. > > Driving is seen as a way of getting somewhere. No one gets in a car > and just drives around, except of course teenagers. Your point, I > believe, is that no one sits in meditation without an external goal > which makes the activity akusala and feeds the illusion of egoic > control. As I see it, where the activity is being undertaken in the belief that its very undertaking is the development of the path, then there is necessarily being developed for the duration of the activity either right view or wrong view. > Well I am saying that you can have a goal in mind and not > spend your "practice" obsessing over it. No one reads sutta except to > understand Dhamma - a goal, yet no one complains that it is akusala. > Please explain. I have not said that reading suttas is necessarily free from akusala (I hope that's clear by now – please say so if not). To my understanding, the development of the path involves the receiving of the teachings appropriately explained for our level of understanding (such as it is), so that that understanding may, with appropriate reflection on what has been received, be incrementally increased. However, it would be wrong to think that a practice of so much time spent reading the suttas, or attending discussions, could itself be the development of the path. Hoping this is clearer. Jon #95900 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. jonoabb Hi Robert E > My point, as usual, is not to deny this, but to challenge the notion > that kusala is less likely to arise during meditation than during > sutta reading or commentary study, and that there is an inherent > deficit in meditation as an "intentional activity" compared to "dhamma > reading" as an intentional activity. I am still waiting for a > principled answer as to why anyone should not engage in meditation as > an activity described by the Buddha any less than engage in > consideration of the Dhamma as described by the Buddha. They are all > activities that do not in themselves lend away from kusala, such as > robbing, killing and defaming. I hope my 2 messages just posted have squarely addressed this concern. So I won't add anything further at this stage. > Who is there to follow anything? I am asking the same question again, > as it seems that you are implying a person with volition to make a > choice. If so, I would like to know how this takes place amongst > arising conditions within the principle of anatta, and why it would > not apply equally to making choices in any other area. I am simply using conventional terminology. I'm afraid I don't see any contradiction in my doing so. > I respect your view; however there is no replacement for the teaching > benefits of concrete examples, nor the authority brought forward by > having personally proven something out in your own experience. There > is a difference between understanding something theoretically and > experiencing some part of it first-hand. My own view is that it is > valuable to discuss what you actually know personally and what you > believe on faith, principle or logic, and to distinguish the two. > > If someone wants to tell me the best way to ride a bicycle I will be > very interested to know if they have ever ridden one themselves. Using your analogy, we have the Buddha's account of how a bicycle is to be ridden, and we are both discussing that from the perspective of one who has yet to get past the first chapter ('Description of Parts' ;-)). > > Of course, one's understanding of the teachings are bound to be > > coloured by one's experience to date in the development of the path, > > but those experiences are not themselves of any value in the > > discussion. > > They do give some indication of the effect they have shown in each > individual's experience. To me, sharing experiences when appropriate > and using them as examples of the concrete application of the > teachings is a very important part of sangha. One who has had a > certain definitive experience can lead the way for others with more > confidence. So-called "definitive experiences" are a dime a dozen on the internet. I'm frankly not interested ;-)) > I do think that we practice one way or the other, or we wouldn't be on > a path in the first place. The question is what happens within that. I question the assumption that "we practice one way or the other". To me this is the wrong track already. > If there is an observation that there is clinging, I think that > naturally leads to some slacking of that clinging. I think that is > the key to sati, that when one sees something it instantly changes it > to some extent. There doesn't have to be any self involved. And the > results of such moments will accumulate. I don't see anything > different in that view than in yours, but I am sure I am saying it the > wrong way or in the wrong context. :-) We're still not on quite the same wavelength (but it's always good talking to you) ;-)) Jon #95901 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:46 am Subject: Re: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation jonoabb Hi Robert E It's me again ;-)) > The ninth and final chapter of the //Sangaha// is concerned, not > with theory, but with practice. This is the Compendium of Meditation > Subjects. This chapter functions as a kind of summary of the > //Visuddhimagga//. It concisely surveys all the methods of meditation > exhaustively explained in the latter work, and it sets forth condensed > accounts of the stages of progress in both systems of meditation, > concentration and insight. Like the masterwork it summarizes, it > concludes with an account of the four types of enlightened individuals > and the attainments of fruition and cessation. This arrangement of the > //Abhidhammattha Sangaha// perhaps serves to underscore the ultimate > soteriological intent of the Abhidhamma. All the theoretical analysis > of mind and matter finally converges upon the practice of meditation, > and the practice culminates in the attainment of the supreme goal of > Buddhism, the liberation of the mind by non-clinging. > > > Robert E. comments: > Please note that according to B. Bodhi, the culmination of the > Abhidhamma in the Sangaha, as the Visuddhimagga, is a compendium > of meditation practices which culminate in enlightenment. It is unclear to me in what sense the term "meditation" is used by BB in the passage above. Indeed, it seems to be used to mean different things. For example (and speaking from recollection, no copy of the text available at the moment): "Compendium of Meditation Subjects": here "meditation subjects" is a loose translation of the Pali term "kammatthana", literally "field of work"; "methods of meditation [explained in the Vism]": no Pali equivalent in the texts, that I can think of; "both systems of meditation, concentration and insight": here "concentration meditation" refers presumably to samatha bhavana and "insight meditation" to vipassana bhavana, so I take "meditation" to be a synonym for "bhavana"; but there is no Pali equivalent for "system of bhavana/meditation"; "practice of meditation [culminating in the attainment of nibbana]": here "meditation" must again refer to "bhavana", but the expression "practice of bhavana" does not occur in the Pali texts, to my knowledge. The Pali "bhavana" means simply "development". There is no connotation of formal practice, as far as I know. The term "practice" in the texts refers to moments of actual bhavana, and not to the undertaking of an activity designed to induce the arising of moments of bhavana. Jon #95902 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:13 am Subject: Re: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation ptaus1 Hi Jon and all, A comprehensive manual of abhidhamma by Bhikkhu Bodhi is now available online for free on google books: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxopJgv85y4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=a+compre\ hensive+manual+of+abhidhamma&lr=&as_brr=1&ei=rlOVSZfeNJDMlQTussnmCQ#PPP1,M1 Best wishes > > Robert E. comments: > > Please note that according to B. Bodhi, the culmination of > the > > Abhidhamma in the Sangaha, as the Visuddhimagga, is a compendium > > of meditation practices which culminate in enlightenment. > > It is unclear to me in what sense the term "meditation" is used by BB > in the passage above. Indeed, it seems to be used to mean different > things. For example (and speaking from recollection, no copy of the > text available at the moment): #95903 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:01 am Subject: Re: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation jonoabb Hi pt Thanks for this. Wow, this is amazing. Great to have this particular text available in this format. I wonder what else they have? Anyway, as a result, I can now confirm that the term "meditation subjects" in the expression "Compendium of Meditation Subjects" is a translation of the Pali term "kamma.t.thaana". Thanks again, pt Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Jon and all, > > A comprehensive manual of abhidhamma by Bhikkhu Bodhi is now available > online for free on google books: > > http://books.google.com.au/books? id=hxopJgv85y4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=a+comprehensive+manual+of +abhidhamma&lr=&as_brr=1&ei=rlOVSZfeNJDMlQTussnmCQ#PPP1,M1 > > Best wishes > > #95904 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:22 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "Breathing things (pa.na): so called because of their state of breathing (paa.nanataa); the meaning is, because their existence depends on in-breaths and out-breaths. Creatures (bhuuta): so called because of being (bhuutatta = becomeness); the meaning is, because of their being fully become (sambhuutatta), because of the being generated (abhinibattatta). Persons (puggala): 'pum' is what hell is called; they fall (galanti) into that, is the meaning; or it is just the pentad of aggregates, since it is actually only a concept derived from that pentad of aggregates. [What is referred to is] included (pariyaapanna) in that personality, thus it 'has a personality' (attabhaava-pariyaapanna). 'Included in' is delimited by 'gone into' is the meaning." Path of Purity. "'Living things': i.e. from the functioning of the breath. Because they maintain life through respiration and inspiration is the meaning. From their coming to be (through their deeds) 'creatures' are so called (bhuutaa). The meaning is, from their manifestly coming to be, coming to birth. 'Person' (puggala) is made up of pun which is 'hell,' and galanti, which means 'fall into.' 'Individuality' means body, just the five aggregates. Because with reference to the five aggregates, just the concept of being arises, beings included in that individuality are spoken of as 'included under the terms individuality.' 'Included' means limited by, comprised in." Paa.nanataaya paa.naa, assaasapassaasaayattavuttitaayaati attho. Bhuutattaa bhuutaa, sa.mbhuutattaa abhinibbattattaati attho. Punti vuccati nirayo. Tasmi.m galantiiti puggalaa, gacchantiiti attho. Attabhaavo vuccati sariira.m. Khandhapa~ncakameva vaa, tamupaadaaya pa~n~nattimattasambhavato. Tasmi.m attabhaave pariyaapannaati attabhaavapariyaapannaa. Pariyaapannaati paricchinnaa, antogadhaati attho. Sincerely, Scott. #95905 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:17 am Subject: The Status of Pali Commentaries Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. abhidhammika Dear Robert Ep, James, TG, colette, Howard, Herman, Robert K, Nina, Alex, Sarah, Jon, Alberto and all How are you? Robert Ep asked: "Is it an established fact that the "Traditional Theravada" includes the commentaries? Or is this in any dispute? Obviously the Tipitaka itself is the body of Theravadin teachings, so I am wondering what the status of the commentaries really is." Suan replies: Robert, as you rightly stated, the Pali Tipitaka itself is the main body of Theravadin teachings. Regarding your question about what the status of the commentaries really is, their status is very high and indispensable. 1. The authors of Pali commentaries are many, nameless and very ancient. They sometimes serve as the reporters of events in the Buddha's time. Some of the Buddha's teachings can be found only in the Pali commentaries. 2. Wherever possible, they prefer to repeat what the Buddha had already said in the Suttas. For example, the definition of the term `ruupam' (ruppatiiti ruuam). At first, I thought it was a definition given by commentaries, but I discovered that it was given by the Buddha and reproduced by the Pali commentators. 3. Very often, in the process of explaining or paraphrasing, what the Buddha said in the verb forms are changed into other grammatical forms such as nouns or compounds or synonyms. 4. Some concepts and ideas the Buddha conveyed in the original Pali cannot be understood by mere normal linguistic skills (mere scholarship). Especially those terms associated with formal meditation practice are beyond the scope of scholarship. As the ancient authors of Pali commentators must have been practitioners at least or even achievers of the results of formal Theravada meditation, their explanations of such concepts and ideas are indispensable. 5. And, whenever they explain important ideas, they use rigorous involvement techniques by drawing upon relevant information from various Suttas, referencing the Buddha's statements. This phenomenon of rigor shows that the ancient authors of Pali commentaries must have memorised the Pali Tipi.tka. 6. Aacariya Mahaa Buddhaghosa was merely a compiler, an editor, a translator of ancient commentaries into an abridged format, which had been preserved in Mahaa Vihaara in Sri Lanka. 7. The aims of the authors of ancient Pali commentaries have always been to preserve and protect the Pali Tipi.taka. So, the presence of their personal opinions is minimal. Whenever their opinions are put forward, they explicitly declare them as such, and warn us against accepting them without checking the Suttas and further consideration. So, Robert, in a sense, the "Traditional Theravada" includes the commentaries to the extent that they conform to the Pali Tipi.taka, and to the extent that they achieve the goal of preserving and protecting the Pali Tipi.tka. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: Hi James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > James: Now, here it gets a bit fuzzy. Traditional Theravada > teachings are supposed to include all three baskets plus the > commentaries. The commentaries suggest that there are two "paths" > to enlightenment... Is it an established fact that the "Traditional Theravada" includes the commentaries? Or is this in any dispute? Obviously the Tipitaka itself is the body of Theravadin teachings, so I am wondering what the status of the commentaries really is. Thanks, Robert E. #95906 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket / To Rob Ep 7 upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Connie) - In a message dated 2/15/2009 12:56:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: it makes a difference what you are seeing, if there are little independent thingie-moments that rise and fall each, or if there is a continuous shifting formfulness that is not defined because it is ultimately insubstantial. "Life" is but a moment. "The Life" is for the ending of continuity. Rephrasing my earlier proposal: people continue in conventional existence while in ultimate reality, dhammas rise and fall. It is possible that rising and falling "dhammas," rather than the other way around. ============================== While reading this that i copied above and other parts of your post, remarks from both of you, and contemplating unreality, I noted a bodily sensation - strongly unpleasant, and reacted to with anxiety and aversion. And the thought arose: "What was that? Was it a separate citta (or group of them) with object that was a body-door rupa felt by vedana as unpleasant and reacted to by elements of sankharakkhandha, especially fear and aversion? Mainly, as to the object, was it a separate rupa-thing: a discrete paramattha dhamma that was a "reality"? And then the thought arose that "No, this was the rising, peaking, and subsiding crest of a wave in the ocean of experience, conceptually distinguishable from the flowing whole, but seamlessly a part," and with that thought the fear, anxiety, and aversion subsided and there was, for the while, peace. Somehow, with regard to this ebb and flow perspective, I am reminded of part of the Upanisa Sutta that I copy here (with translation by the much beloved (LOL) Ven. Thanissaro: "Just as when the gods pour rain in heavy drops & crash thunder on the upper mountains: The water, flowing down along the slopes, fills the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies. When the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies are full, they fill the little ponds. When the little ponds are full, they fill the big lakes. When the big lakes are full, they fill the little rivers. When the little rivers are full, they fill the big rivers. When the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean." With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95907 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:39 am Subject: Re: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation szmicio Dear Pt Thanks. I am happy that this book is availible for free. I was wondering whether there is any possibility to download it? On-line reading is not very comfortable. My best wishes Lukas > A comprehensive manual of abhidhamma by Bhikkhu Bodhi is now available > online for free on google books: > > http://books.google.com.au/books? id=hxopJgv85y4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=a+comprehensive+manual+of+abhid hamma&lr=&as_brr=1&ei=rlOVSZfeNJDMlQTussnmCQ#PPP1,M1 #95908 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Jon. I appreciate your ongoing responses. See below for more botheration. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > > In any case, I was not talking about "intentional moments," I was > > talking about "moments of discernment" which can just as easily take > > place doing an "intentional activity," so called, as meditation, as > > another intentional activity, as reading sutta or discussing > Dhamma. > > Yes, understood. You are saying that moments of discernment (panna) > can just as easily take place during meditation as during any other > intentional activity, such as reading suttas or discussing Dhamma. > > As far as I know, the Buddha nowhere said or implied that the > development of panna was a matter of undertaking intentional activity > of any kind as a matter of a practice. > > To my understanding, the development of panna as described by the > Buddha is, simply put, the re-arising of panna that has already been > developed (to whatever degree). The conditions for that re-arising > are to do with the repeated hearing of and reflecting on aspects of > the teachings that are appropriate to that level of understanding. > They do not include the carrying out of any specific activity. > > > > See for example message #95627 where I said: > > > "Activity of any kind undertaken as a form of "practice" would > fall > > > into the same category." > > > > How about reading sutta in order to understand Dhamma? > > How's that for an intentional form of practice? > > Reading suttas undertaken as a form of practice would fall into the > same category as meditation undertaken as a form of practice. > Undertaking either activity for other reasons, however, may not. For > example, reading sutta extracts forming part of a message to an > internet discussion group would presumably not be done as part of a > practice and so could well be free from wrong view/idea of self. What would be the intention of regularly posting and reading sutta as part of an online discussion group if it was not to aid one's practice of Dhamma, and one's understanding of Dhamma? Are you saying that it is more kusala to post to dsg out of boredom or a desire for companionship or just 'cause you feel like it, then to be interested in it for Dhamma? This would not make sense to me that "the more arbitrary and accidentally the teachings arise the better." It seems very odd, if so. > Likewise meditation undertaken because of its supposed health > benefits. (No rule either way in either case.) So it would be okay to do yoga or meditation for some ancillary reason having nothing to do with Dhamma, but to do it because Buddha mentioned it as a means for developing sati will spoil the soup. I find that so opposed to logic as to be difficult to comprehend. And Buddhism is quite logical all the way through. > > > If this is not clearly enough stated for you, please feel free to > > > press further on it ;-)) > > > > Addressing the simple questions above would do just fine. Thanks. > > Please let me know if you feel the question has not been addressed. It seems like a continuation of the idea that any intentional activity is akusala. I don't think this reflects the reality of why anyone is here or reading sutta or meditating or studying or translating Abhidhamma, so it seems to be based on a kind of skewed concept. There is no one here who is not here because they want to progress in the Dhamma and on the path. That is the only reason a committed Buddhist does such things. Perhaps that is why there are so few arahats around. Our good intentions are too strong and they are getting in the way of the accidental arising of panna. Best, Robert E. ================= #95909 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > As I see it, where the activity is being undertaken in the belief > that its very undertaking is the development of the path, then there > is necessarily being developed for the duration of the activity > either right view or wrong view. So could it possibly be undertaken with Right View? > > Well I am saying that you can have a goal in mind and not > > spend your "practice" obsessing over it. No one reads sutta except > to > > understand Dhamma - a goal, yet no one complains that it is > akusala. > > Please explain. > > I have not said that reading suttas is necessarily free from akusala > (I hope that's clear by now – please say so if not). Clear. What's not clear is why so many warnings against meditation, and none for sutta reading. > To my understanding, the development of the path involves the > receiving of the teachings appropriately explained for our level of > understanding (such as it is), so that that understanding may, with > appropriate reflection on what has been received, be incrementally > increased. > > However, it would be wrong to think that a practice of so much time > spent reading the suttas, or attending discussions, could itself be > the development of the path. > > Hoping this is clearer. That is clearer, Jon, but doesn't explain why the culture of this group is to spend an enormous amount of time intentionally studying commentaries, and no time spent meditating or discussing the role of meditation. One must believe that activity A is more implicityly valuable or kusala than activity B, and is that right view or wrong view? Best, Robert = = = = = = = = = = = = #95910 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > We're still not on quite the same wavelength (but it's always good > talking to you) ;-)) > Thanks, Jon, I appreciate that. :-) Robert = = = = = = = = = = #95912 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:34 am Subject: Re: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation epsteinrob Sorry Jon. Here is the attribution. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > The Pali "bhavana" means simply "development". There is no > connotation of formal practice, as far as I know. > > The term "practice" in the texts refers to moments of actual bhavana, > and not to the undertaking of an activity designed to induce the > arising of moments of bhavana. The word bhavana, according to my incredibly extensive research -- pause for laughter -- has been used throughout its history to indicate two things in related contexts: a/ the practice of meditation leading to vipasssana, etc., in other words "development through meditation" or "development practice," ie, "meditation," and b/ the specific states of consciousness that are the fruits of the mental conditions that lead to them. So vipassana-bhavana could be taken to mean a moment of vipassana caused by the mental conditions that have led to its development, or it could be taken to mean the practice of developing vipassana through meditation. Unfortunately, there is no final arbiter for one being more correct than the other. I believe it is used both ways, and that in truth the two usages are directly interrelated and historically connected. Vipassana-bhavana is often translated as "Insight Meditation" and is used that way by many Theravadin communities worldwide for many centuries. In any case I do think it would be a mistake to take a word that means "develpment" and implies "mental development" and strip it of the "developmental" aspect of its meaning. To develop something is somewhat different than to merely experience it as a singular event. It implies a succession of moments that are leading to the state in question, not just one that stands alone and pops up out of nowhere. So I think it would be a mistake to translate vipassana-bhavana in a way that would merely mean a moment of vipassana. From the Vipassana Research Institute: Bhavana-maya pannabhavana-maya panna is the wisdom obtained by meditation-the wisdom that comes from the direct experience of the truth. This development of insight is also called vipassana- bhavana (Vipassana meditation). Best, Robert E. ============================ #95913 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:37 am Subject: The Status of Pali Commentaries Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. epsteinrob Hi Suan. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > So, Robert, in a sense, the "Traditional Theravada" includes the > commentaries to the extent that they conform to the Pali Tipi.taka, > and to the extent that they achieve the goal of preserving and > protecting the Pali Tipi.tka. > > Best wishes, > > > Suan Lu Zaw Thank you, Suan, that is a most excellent explication and is very helpful. Best, Robert E. ========================= #95914 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket / To Rob Ep 7 epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Somehow, with regard to this ebb and flow perspective, I am reminded of > part of the Upanisa Sutta that I copy here (with translation by the much > beloved (LOL) Ven. Thanissaro: "Just as when the gods pour rain in heavy drops & > crash thunder on the upper mountains: The water, flowing down along the > slopes, fills the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies. When the mountain clefts & > rifts & gullies are full, they fill the little ponds. When the little ponds > are full, they fill the big lakes. When the big lakes are full, they fill the > little rivers. When the little rivers are full, they fill the big rivers. When > the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean." Thank you, Howard, that imagery is quite helpful, and also very nice. Best, Robert E. ======================== #95915 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:04 pm Subject: Re: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation robmoult Hi All, My understanding is that the best transation for bhavana is "mental cultivation" or "mental development". This is why in the dasa-punna- kiriya-vatthu, the bhavana category includes items such as studying the dhamma, teaching the dhamma and straightening out of views. Metta, Rob M :-) #95916 From: "connie" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:42 pm Subject: Re: RFC - Dispeller 202-207(Questionnaire) nichiconn Dear Lukas, Disp: 203. But as regards the "objects" triads aaramma.nattika) (nos.13,16,19, 21) <62.39>, four aggregates have limited objects (parittaaramma.na) in one who lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who comprehends, who reviews, through being instigated by the 55 states of the sense sphere. Vibh: Aaramma.nattikesu pana cattaaro khandhaa pa~ncapa.n.naasa kaamaavacaradhamme aarabbha rajjantassa dussantassa muyhantassa sa.mvarantassa sammasantassa paccavekkhantassa ca parittaaramma.naa honti, They have expanded objects (mahaggataaramma. na) in one who lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who establishes the laying hold through being instigated by the 27 fine-material and immaterial states; sattaviisati ruupaaruupaavacaradhamme aarabbha rajjantassa dussantassa muyhantassa sa.mvarantassa pariggaha.m pa.t.thapentassa mahaggataaramma.naa, they have boundless objects (appamaa.naaramma.na) in one who reviews through being instigated by paths, fruition and nibbaana. maggaphalanibbaanaani paccavekkhantassa appamaa.naaramma.naa, At the time of reviewing a concept they should not be said to have [such] objects (na vattabbaaramma. naa) <62.41>." pa~n~natti.m paccavekkha.nakaale navattabbaaramma.naati. ------------------------- L: Has limited objects. What does it refers to? In what sense they are limited? c: Expositor: States which, because of their small power are like little objects, are called 'limited,' a name given to things pertaining to the universe of sense. How do you suppose "small power" is meant to be understood? L: Any pali term for one who lusts,who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who comprehands, who reviews? c: rajjantassa dussantassa muyhantassa sa.mvarantassa sammasantassa paccavekkhantassa L: There is 55 kamavacara cittas? c: yes. When you are at Google books you can 'File/Save As' a copy of CMA or whichever book you are looking at. Excellent. It will answer the greatest part of your questions, I think. You can also get a copy Mrs RD's translation of the Dhammasa"nganii at openlibrary.org/details/buddhistmanualof00davirich - you have to go to the Print option & then you can save (without printing) from there. ------------ L:What does expanded object refers to? 27 fine-material and imaterial states,so it refers to rupavacara and arupavacara cittas, isnt it? c: yes. ----------- L: What does boundless objects refers to? c: Path, fruit and nibbaana. peace, connie #95917 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:49 pm Subject: Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. buddhatrue Hi Robert (and Suan), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > Is it an established fact that the "Traditional Theravada" includes > the commentaries? Or is this in any dispute? Obviously the Tipitaka > itself is the body of Theravadin teachings, so I am wondering what the > status of the commentaries really is. The word "Theravada" literally means the "teaching of the elders"...i.e. the commentaries. The commentaries are central to traditional Theravada because they are the lense used to view the Tipitaka. When you read essays and books from traditional Theravada teachers (from Burma and Thailand) you will find the commentaries quoted much more frequently than the suttas. Suan gave you some good information but there are some things I would disagree with. -The commentaries are filled with personal opinions (sometimes blatant and sometimes subtle). - The authors of the commentaries were scholars first- therefore, that bias should be kept in mind. The commentaries contain some valuable information, and some misleading information. In that sense, they are like a landmine and one should proceed with caution when reading them. Metta, James #95918 From: "connie" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:04 pm Subject: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 6 nichiconn Dear Sarah, .... 4. Connie's questionable quote of Lama Govinda's #93371. "Thus 'vi~n~naa.na paccaya sa'nkhaara' is just as correct as 'sa'nhkhaara paccaya vi~n~naana'..." etc. It all depends on the understanding of these terms.....{What did YOU think about it, Connie?] c: I'd forgotten that (overly long!) flavour-inseparable-from-the-soup mess quote. Actually, I'd wondered where I'd read something similar & just saw it last night: Narada quotes Mrs RD's Bud.Psy. p6: According to Paticca-Samuppada, too, Contact conditions Feeling. But strictly speaking, there is no reason for the sequence because all these mental states are coexistent. The Atthasalini states - "For of states, arisen in one conscious moment, it is not valid to say that 'this' arises first, 'that' afterwards. palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_2.htm - So now I've got two questionable authorities in my book. Maybe it's just Lama G's style, but he starts sounding too 'all-is-one & one-is-bliss'ful to me & as much as I appreciate Mrs RD, think she gets a bit 'out there', too. Here, though they do have a point & it might also be part of why translators seem to have a hard time with PS & end up with things like "interdependent co-arising". Sure, every link is related and all in play according to the accumulations at any given moment, but so's the three lives method. As far as just reversing the terms goes, it'd be the same as considering the building up and tearing down / forward & reverse orders. I wouldn't go so far as to say there's no significance to the 'order of teaching', but it's also true that in different suttas, different links are left out & such; no great recall right now, but for one example, the way Sariputta learned it was pretty condensed. Also an example of how PS can be seen even if the books don't spell it outright. peace, connie #95919 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:00 pm Subject: Re: RFC - Dispeller 202-207(Questionnaire) szmicio Dear Connie > L: Has limited objects. What does it refers to? In what sense they are limited? > > c: Expositor: States which, because of their small power are like >little objects, are called 'limited,' a name given to things >pertaining to the universe of sense. > > How do you suppose "small power" is meant to be understood? L: any pali term for "small power"? Generally I understand it as just all objects of kammaavacara. They has little power because they are object of sensous desires. As it was said: rajjantassa dussantassa muyhantassa sa.mvarantassa sammasantassa paccavekkhantassa Then rupa and arupa avacaras has expanded objects. They are more subtle but still rajjantassa dussantassa muyhantassa sa.mvarantassa sammasantassa paccavekkhantassa And the last one is boundless object. And there is no defilments. And I also like the last word pa~n~natti.m paccavekkha. nakaale navattabbaaramma. naati And here I wonder about it. Because the last sentence stress that all those object classifications are real and important ,a way of understanding a dhamma. It also underlying the importance of understanding of paramatha dhammas, not concept. No difrrence whether it is kama, rupa, arupa or lokuttara avacaracitta. Just difrent objects. but we shouldn't stay just with concepts, it's not a reality. My best wishes Lukas #95920 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep (& James), --- On Mon, 16/2/09, buddhatrue wrote: R:>> Is it an established fact that the "Traditional Theravada" includes > the commentaries? Or is this in any dispute? Obviously the Tipitaka > itself is the body of Theravadin teachings, so I am wondering what the > status of the commentaries really is. J:> The word "Theravada" literally means the "teaching of the elders"...i. e. the commentaries. The commentaries are central to traditional Theravada because they are the lense used to view the Tipitaka. When you read essays and books from traditional Theravada teachers (from Burma and Thailand) you will find the commentaries quoted much more frequently than the suttas. .... S: See also the post of Ven Dhammanando's that Nina quotes: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/92773 Metta, Sarah ====== #95921 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:43 pm Subject: Re: RFC - Dispeller 202-207(Questionnaire) - pali analysis szmicio Dear Connie I want to discuss those words: rajjantassa dussantassa muyhantassa sa.mvarantassa sammasantassa paccavekkhantassa I am learing pali and I would be grateful for your comments on each of this word. They are compound words, so can you analyse it for me? I can't grasp the meaning of second element in each word. I don't have PTS dictionary, where can I find it? Those words are very meaningful. My best wishes Lukas #95922 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta sarahprocter... Hi Chris, --- On Sat, 14/2/09, Christine Forsyth wrote: >Hello Sarah, (Andrew, Sobhana), all, Doing my usual reading in the Useful Posts section - and on "anatta" (which is also 'as usual'), I came across this post of yours asking about a Wheel Publication which Andrew had mentioned to Sobhana {a couple of years ago now :-)}. It is on-line (not sure if anyone else gave the link). "Soullessness" by Bhikkhu Dhammapaala, Udawatte Temple, Kandy. (March 15th, > S: Thanks for this, Chris. (somehow the link has gone in my reply now). I just had a quick look. Do you have any comments on it? I expect I was trying to encourage Sobhana and Andrew to share their thoughts by way of using it for a discussion point. Metta, Sarah ========= #95923 From: "nichiconn" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:17 pm Subject: Re: RFC - Dispeller 202-207(Questionnaire) - pali analysis nichiconn Dear Lukas, I won't be much help with paa.li questions, but that second part of those words is where the translator is getting "one who". The PTS Dictionary: dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ I don't know if you've seen: bodhimonastery.net/courses/Pali/course_Pali.html I should spend some time there! peace, connie > I want to discuss those words: > rajjantassa dussantassa muyhantassa sa.mvarantassa sammasantassa > paccavekkhantassa #95924 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal Buddhist Insight Meditation Thickens Parts of The Brain sarahprocter... Hi Suan & all, Thank you for including me in your various responses. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > I found a link on dhamma-list that show how formal Theravada > Buddhist meditation thickens parts of the brain. > > Check it out! ... Sarah: I just have. The questions are again, according to the texts, what is this 'formal Theravada Buddhist meditation', what evidence is there that anyone participating in the study knows anything about samatha or vipassana, for example, as found in the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries and what is the significance (if any?) according to the Buddha in having thickened parts of the brain? ... > Meditate on This: Buddhist Tradition Thickens Parts of the Brain > > By LiveScience Staff <...> > The study involved a small number of people, just 20. All had > extensive training in Buddhist Insight meditation. But the > researchers say the results are significant. .... Sarah: Aside from the question of whether according to scientific study, such a small sample's results are 'significant', what is this 'extensive training in Buddhist Insight meditation' and does it have anything to do with anything the Buddha taught? If so what and where in the texts? ... <..> > Other forms of yoga and meditation likely have a similar impact on > brain structure, the researchers speculate, but each tradition > probably has a slightly different pattern of cortical thickening > based on the specific mental exercises involved. .... Sarah: In which case, does it have the slightest significance for the path at all? /.... > > http://www.livescience.com/health/051111_medidate.html > Sarah: From a 'sister' article it links to: "In another recent study performed at Harvard, the beta-catenin gene in selected mice was engineered to exhibit increased activity; the mouse brains grew to almost double the usual size. The cerebral cortex, seat of intelligence and language, became more human like." Sarah: So even mice can show the same results from an injection. Why bother with the ' *formal* 'training in Buddhist Insight' when an injection will do as well, if not better? Metta, Sarah ====== #95925 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The end of Suffering - Questioning the agenda of the Buddha sarahprocter... Hi Nori, Good to hear from you again. Most friends here won't remember you or have 'arrived' too recently, so perhaps you would kindly re-introduce yourself, reminding us where you live and anything else you care to share. .... --- On Fri, 13/2/09, nori wrote: >Buddhism can be viewed in separate aspects. >There is the aspect of ridding one's defilements (like greed, hatred, etc.), 8 Fold Noble Path, and bettering one's disposition, character and lifestyle to lead a better life for oneself and others. >I can have no objection to this. .... S: I'm not happy about the idea of 'bettering one's disposition' and 'leading a better life for oneself...' as being related to the 8fold NP. It sounds more like a path of attachment than detachment, of ignorance than understanding to me. What do you think? ... >There is the aspect of having compassion and consideration for others, being honest and sincere and cultivating other good qualities. >I can have no objection to this either. .... S: How is this any different from other religions and teachings, all with an idea of self developing such noble qualities? .... >Then there is the great agenda: that one should pursue to root out suffering altogether! To eliminate it once and for all... where it does not exist. .... S: Isn't it primarily a question of understanding (rather than pursuing to root out anything)? For example, what is the 1st NT? You referred to the reasoning 'that we should practice all these methods and techniques to accomplish this task, like not indulging in sensual pleasure.....', but is there any understanding of dukkha in such 'methods'? Metta, Sarah ======= #95926 From: "connie" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:42 pm Subject: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 6 nichiconn Dear Sarah, Let me retract this: "As far as just reversing the terms goes, it'd be the same as considering the building up and tearing down / forward & reverse orders." peace, connie #95927 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, Thanks so much for patiently hanging in there on the various threads... --- On Sat, 14/2/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >I still don't get the point - maybe I'm thick. ... S: Oh well, some research would suggest that's a good thing:-). ... >In all that K. Sujin has said here I don't see any indication of how *not* meditating will lead to a greater degree of kusala, or lead one to know more directly whether the moment is kusala or not. Whether meditating or not, the same principle of conditions and panna will obtain. So why is anything wrong with meditating, as long as one does not have the presumption that one knows what will arise? .... S: Fine, it all depends on the cittas and what is meant by 'meditating' as some of us have stressed. ... >The warnings are fine for meditation and non-meditation alike, as far as I can tell, and if one is inclined to meditate, based on this talk, I would say "go ahead, but don't expect it to be kusala all the time, and don't think you will know whether it is or isn't unless you have a moment of panna." And that in itself is good advice, but says nothing against meditation itself to me. ... S: I'd stress that whatever they do or don't do, it'll just depend on conditions. No 'rules' at all. ... >I do yoga, as do some other people around here. And I do it because it seems to be good for me and good for my body. I don't have a particular goal I am trying to reach. It is just something I am inclined to do. ... S: Likewise. I'd probably put an 'attachment' in there somewhere, but otherwise 'do' it, just as I also swim or eat or do many other things. .... >Likewise with meditation although I do not do it as much. Likewise with running every other day. What is the problem? .... S: No problem. Do whatever you like, whatever you're inclined to do, with *right understanding* of dhammas, not the wrong idea that doing your yoga, concentrating on breath, running every day or any other activity is the path to nibbana. >S: The discussion was about meditation, samma samadhi and the Visuddhimagga passages. KS's last comment was that: "without right understanding, people just want to have it (samma samadhi), so it cannot be calm. It's attachment to having happy feeling or pleasant feeling only." R:>But this does not have to be the case.... ... S: If people 'just want to have samma samadhi' or just want to have anything, it's attachment, not detachment. Metta, Sarah ======= #95928 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. Very interesting.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep (& James), > > --- On Mon, 16/2/09, buddhatrue wrote: > R:>> Is it an established fact that the "Traditional Theravada" includes > > the commentaries? Or is this in any dispute? Obviously the Tipitaka > > itself is the body of Theravadin teachings, so I am wondering what > the > > status of the commentaries really is. > > J:> The word "Theravada" literally means the "teaching of the > elders"...i. e. the commentaries. The commentaries are central to > traditional Theravada because they are the lense used to view the > Tipitaka. When you read essays and books from traditional Theravada > teachers (from Burma and Thailand) you will find the commentaries > quoted much more frequently than the suttas. > .... > S: See also the post of Ven Dhammanando's that Nina quotes: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/92773 > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== I appreciate this information. However, I have some questions: If Theravada refers most directly to the commentaries, why is it then used for the overall name of the teachings that include the entire Tipitaka. It seems to me it cannot have both meanings at the same time, unless Buddha is included as one of the elders, in which case one would be saying that it is the "word of the Buddha + the word of whoever else has high authority as an elder" and would then be a fairly inclusive umbrella. In that case, what commentaries are included, and which are excluded? If the meaning is not Buddha + elders, then it would seem to leave out the Buddha, and emphasize the elders or commentators. This would seem even stranger, although it would go along with James's statement that the commentaries are quoted by the venerables of Burma and Thailand more than the suttas. I wonder, is this a good thing, no matter how wise the commentators may be, if the Buddha is not quoted as frequently as the elders who wrote commentaries? It seems that there is as difference between a quote of "text + commentary" which elucidates the Buddha's text, and the commentary standing alone, which would tend to eradicate the text as an originary source of meaning over time? This practice seems worrisome. Another point raised by the Dhammanando article is that there appear to be not only commentaries to the Abhidhamma but to the suttas as well, and that they appear to be necessary to understand the meaning of some of the suttas. Are these sutta commentaries available? And do most sutta students know about them? Thanks, Robert E. =========================== #95929 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:01 am Subject: Re: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation epsteinrob Hi Rob. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All, > > My understanding is that the best transation for bhavana is "mental > cultivation" or "mental development". This is why in the dasa-punna- > kiriya-vatthu, the bhavana category includes items such as studying > the dhamma, teaching the dhamma and straightening out of views. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Well, bhavana seems to be used in an awful lot of different ways by different groups. It is an amazingly flexible word, at least in English it seems, and even in Pali is used in so many word-grouping combinations that it boggles the mind. I wonder: if it is the case that bhavana is most often used to refer to overall mental development and can include whatever a given translator may feel the context requires to represent mental development or mental culture, such as sutta study, contemplation of characteristics of samsara, and meditation, if one sees it as a method of mental development, whether there is another word that explicitly refers to meditation. Clearly we have practices like anapanasati that are agreed-upon meditation methods, but we can't agree whether they are for general use or for advanced students of Dhamma. Is there a word that clearly indicates that the bhavana in question is being developed by means of meditation? Thanks, Robert E. ================================ #95930 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:03 am Subject: Re: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All, > > My understanding is that the best transation for bhavana is "mental > cultivation" or "mental development". This is why in the dasa-punna- > kiriya-vatthu, the bhavana category includes items such as studying > the dhamma, teaching the dhamma and straightening out of views. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) I also wonder, whether you think that Bikkhu Bodhi is confused, prejudiced or following a valid option, when he concludes from his extensive studies that meditation is a major setting for the practices of bhavana in the Abhidhamma? Best, Robert E. ========================== #95931 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 2 sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- On Tue, 10/2/09, Scott wrote: >>S: "1. Scott, #91836 '....Here, bhikkhus, the noble disciple is mindful, possessing supreme mindfulness and discretion, one who remembers and recollects what was done and said long ago. (cirakatampi cirabhaasitampi saritaa anussaritaa) ....' Here, highly developed sati with panna (as in the case of the Buddha and his key disciples, as I understand). Sati that which recalls, (with sanna). Recalling, reflecting, not remembering (sanna). There can be recalling with kusala or akusala now. .... >Scott: Let's see if I have this: So here is a conventional description ('remembers and recollects') of the combined functions of sati and sa~n~naa with pa~n~naa. The remembering and recollecting charateristics of sa~n~naa and sati are here described as working in tandem in their roles within an arising of consciousness and mental factors, and having certain past 'events' as object. .... Sarah: With the emphasis on sati. .... >I don't quite follow the last statement, Sarah. Could you clarify? ... Sarah: There can be 'recalling' now, but when (as usually), no sati arises, it's akusala recalling. Occasionally, as for example when there is wholesome reflection on some past kusala, it's recalling with sati. ... Scott:>>As it stands, I don't see how sati and pa~n~naa could arise in 'akusala recalling' as these are reserved for kusala moments of consciousness. ... Sarah: Exactly. Apologies for a lack of clarity. ... Scott:>>I hope you are enjoying the discussions in Bangkok these days! ... Sarah: I appreciate the kind thoughts and mudita (sympathetic joy). We were discussing the other day how with more metta, there's also more mudita and more karuna (compassion) too. The mudita and karuna cannot arise without metta. Metta, Sarah ====== #95932 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep, > > Thanks so much for patiently hanging in there on the various threads... > > --- On Sat, 14/2/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >I still don't get the point - maybe I'm thick. > ... > S: Oh well, some research would suggest that's a good thing:-). Ha ha, yes I could feel my brain thickening with pride as I read about that! :-) > ... > >In all that K. Sujin > has said here I don't see any indication of how *not* meditating will > lead to a greater degree of kusala, or lead one to know more directly > whether the moment is kusala or not. Whether meditating or not, the > same principle of conditions and panna will obtain. So why is > anything wrong with meditating, as long as one does not have the > presumption that one knows what will arise? > .... > S: Fine, it all depends on the cittas and what is meant by 'meditating' as some of us have stressed. Yes, it seems to be quite an issue as to what "meditation" is. I always thought it was a pretty simple idea, at least the practice itself if not the fine tuning - that is, to sit in a fairly balanced upright position, turn the attention towards the breath, and focus with one's awareness or attention on whatever arises in the moment. I think that within that, one can take the approach of just discerning whatever comes up and not trying to control either the practice or the result, or one can have a more "formal" approach and focus on one or another of the foundations, such as "following thoughts" or "following sensations." I would take it that if one were bold enough to practice *anything,* that most here would think that no plan and no particular choice of foundation of mindfulness would be most potentially kusala, since there would be no controlling authority. However, I don't think even that would be "open and uncontrolled" enough for most here, since it would still involve a decision to sit and meditate at all. I can also stretch the definition of meditation to include a meditative approach to the moments of daily living. This may also seem to involve too much of a plan, but to simply pay attention to what arises does not seem to be too much of a plan to me. Let's say you read that one who develops sati can develop satipatthana and panna and after reading this one is inclined to take on the approach of sati: that is, to merely pay attention mindfully to what is happening with nama and rupa at the moment. It would seem to me that this would be in line with what Buddha taught, but perhaps there is something in that which is 'too much,' even there. Any form of bhavana, even if the word "meditation" or sitting down to "practice" never comes into it, is going to have some thought or intention of development in it. > ... > > >The warnings are fine for meditation and non-meditation alike, as far > as I can tell, and if one is inclined to meditate, based on this talk, > I would say "go ahead, but don't expect it to be kusala all the time, > and don't think you will know whether it is or isn't unless you have a > moment of panna." And that in itself is good advice, but says nothing > against meditation itself to me. > ... > S: I'd stress that whatever they do or don't do, it'll just depend on conditions. No 'rules' at all. My only problem is all the warnings against meditation. If there are no rules, then why not sit if one is so inclined? > ... > > >I do yoga, as do some other people around here. And I do it because > it seems to be good for me and good for my body. I don't have a > particular goal I am trying to reach. It is just something I am > inclined to do. > ... > S: Likewise. I'd probably put an 'attachment' in there somewhere, but otherwise 'do' it, just as I also swim or eat or do many other things. > .... > >Likewise with meditation although I do not do it as > much. Likewise with running every other day. What is the problem? > .... > S: No problem. Do whatever you like, whatever you're inclined to do, with *right understanding* of dhammas, not the wrong idea that doing your yoga, concentrating on breath, running every day or any other activity is the path to nibbana. Then you do not warn against meditation? That has been my main alarm about this subject. Statements like: "It is impossible to have a kusala moment in formal meditation." I can understand a warning on the other hand against *wrong view.* That is another matter. > > >S: The discussion was about meditation, samma samadhi and the > Visuddhimagga passages. KS's last comment was that: "without right > understanding, people just want to have it (samma samadhi), so it > cannot be calm. It's attachment to having happy feeling or pleasant > feeling only." > > R:>But this does not have to be the case.... > ... > S: If people 'just want to have samma samadhi' or just want to have anything, it's attachment, not detachment. How does one guard against this in Abhidhamma study? Do these warnings apply as well, and are folks concerned that they may be studying commentary or learning Pali or discussing teachings with attachment? Or does this not seem to be an equal worry? Just wondering what the playing field is..... I never hear anyone say "And when you are translating and studying the meaning of the commentaries, make sure to do this without attachment or you will cloud the meaning with lobha and moha." By the way, although I seem to be argumentative on these topics, my interest in Abhidhamma has increased, not decreased. But I think it would be a mistake to follow a predetermined interpretation of anything. Best, Robert E. ============================ #95933 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for comment - etc. sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, Great Abhi studies with Connie! --- On Mon, 9/2/09, szmicio wrote: >Vibhanga continues: " Is low (paritta.m). Is characteristic of plane of desire(kaamaavacara ). Is not characteristic of the plane of form(na ruupaavacara. m). Is not characteristic of the formless plane(na aruupaavacara. m). Is included(i.e is mundane) (pariyaapanna. m). Is not 'not included'(i. e not supramundane) (no apariyaapanna. m). <...> >1)Is low (paritta.m) >L: What does Buddha mean by that? paritta means also: insignificant, small, little. Rupa is paritta, what does it mean? In what sense it is "low"? ------------ --- >2)Is characteristic of plane of desire(kaamaavacara ). Why is that? What does 'being kaamaavacara' indicate? .... S: As usual, the answers are in your questions! Kaamaavacara objects are low and insignificant as compared to those which are high or exalted as objects of jhana cittas, for example. Even non-lokuttara panna of insight is insignificant or low in this sense, arising and falling away immediately, experiencing ordinary kaamavacara objects. See more in U.P. under 'paritta-insignificant' I think Connie answered this and the other questions. Please let us know if you'd like any more comments on any of them. It's helpful to reflect on the relevance of these Abhidhamma details now. Metta, Sarah ====== #95934 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gradual Sayings, Book of Threes, 67, Topics of discourse, ii - vii sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Just to say I've appreciated the AN suttas you've taken the trouble to type out and add Pali to, such as the one about 'the company trained in bluster (okkaacitaviniitaa parisaa), not in discussion by inquiry (pa.tipucchaaviniitaa parissa), and the compay trained in discussion by inquiry, not in bluster' #95733. Also, the one given here #95808 about the person competent or incompetent to discuss ending with this good verse: --- On Tue, 10/2/09, Scott wrote: >(vii) 'When talk is barred by anger, bias, pride, Men follow a way not Ariyan and seek For one another's faults, rejoice to hear A word ill spoken, a slip o' the tongue, - delight Each in the other's confusion and defeat. That way of talk the Ariyan follows not. If fain to speak, the wise man, since he knows The time, the way of speech the Ariyans use, The practice proper for expounding Dhamma, That sage will use such talk: not barred by wrath, Unbiased, with unruffled mind; not spiteful, Not arbitrary-minded, not detracting; But with full knowledge speaking he speaks well, Pleased with right speech, not gleeful at a slip, Not studying censure, catching not at faults: Reviles not, crushes not, nor speaks at random. O! good men's words alike instruct and please: Thus Ariyans talk. Such is the Ariyan speech. And knowing this the wise will humbly speak.'" .... Good reminders for us all.... Metta, Sarah ========= #95935 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cornerstone sarahprocter... Dear Connie & all, There was a lot of helpful material in the sections on sammuti and paramattha sacca as in #95596: --- On Sun, 1/2/09, connie wrote: >Karunadasa continues: >Hence in presenting the teaching the Buddha does not exceed linguistic conventions (na hi Bhagava samannat atidhavati), 149 but uses such terms as "person" without being led astray by their superficial implications (aparamasat voharati).150 Because the Buddha is able to employ such linguistic designations as "person" and "individual" without assuming corresponding substantial entities, he is called "skilled in expression" (vohara-kusala) .151 The use of such terms does not in any way involve falsehood.152 Skilfulness in the use of words is the ability to conform to conventions (sammuti), usages (vohara), designations (pannatti), and turns of speech (nirutti) in common use in the world without being led astray by them.153 Hence in understanding the teaching of the Buddha one is advised not to adhere dogmatically to the mere superficial meanings of words.154 <....> In this respect the distinction between sammuti and paramattha corresponds to the distinction made in the earlier scriptures between nitattha and neyyattha. <...> "Truth is indeed one, there is no second" (ekat hi saccat na dutiyam atthi).156 notes: 149. KvuA 103. 150. Cf. KvuA 103 151. SA I 51. 152. Cf. MA 125 153. DA I 251. 154. (Abhvt 88). 155. A I 54; Abhvk 324. 156. Suttanipata v.884. ..... Metta, Sarah p.s. Again, I wonder about Abhvt and Abhvk???? ======== #95936 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Angry Monks sarahprocter... Hi Rob M & Path3, I was glad you quoted from B.Bodhi's article on Nanavira's teachings: --- On Mon, 9/2/09, robmoult wrote: > His proposition sounds innocuous enough as it stands, until one discovers that the author sees this task as entailing nothing less than a radical revaluation of the entire Theravaada exegetical tradition. Few of the standard interpretative principles upheld by Theravaada orthodoxy are spared the slashing of his pen. The most time-honoured explanatory tools for interpreting the Suttas, along with the venerated books from which they stem, he dismisses as "a mass of dead matter choking the Suttas." The Abhidhamma Pi.taka, the Milindapa~nha, the Visuddhimagga, the Pali Commentaries -- all come in for criticism, and the author says that ignorance of them "may be counted a positive advantage as leaving less to be unlearned." "< .... S: I noted that even on the website extract Path3 referred us to, it says much the same: "..it can suggest an alternative approach to the Buddha's original Teaching...." I wonder why anyone would wish to remain as a Theravada bhikkhu if suggesting 'an alternative approach'. They do great harm to the teachings, not to mention the kamma involved in not adhering to the Vinaya. I agreed with Rob M's other comments. Metta, Sarah ======== #95937 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. sarahprocter... Dear Suan, --- On Mon, 9/2/09, abhidhammika wrote: >Mahaasi Sayadaw's dhamma lectures and instructions for meditation came to form modern scholarly commentaries on such great Suttas as Mahaasatipa. t.thaana Suttam, Maalukyaputta Suttam, Bhaara Suttam and the like. By the way, I do not know how many such works are available. All I know is that there are many. >I have only his works on Mahaasatipa. t.thaana Suttam and Maalukyaputta Suttam. .... Sarah: Perhaps we can go through anyone of your choice, paragraph by paragraph, and compare his 'lectures and instructions for meditation' with what is found in the original sutta and ancient commentary. If the ones you have in mind are not available in English/on-line, please choose any of his writings on-line, or any extracts and let's look at a few lines at a time. I'm very confident that we'll find these 'instructions' which may well have now formed 'modern scholarly commentaries' (which were extremely controversial when first taught, relatively recently) have no founding at all in the Buddha's teachings in the ancient texts on anatta. .... >He used the same involvement techniques employed by the traditional Pali commentaries. What I mean by involvement technique is a commentary writer's ability and effort to explain a theme in the Suttam under elucidation by means of drawing upon relevant information from other Suttas and Pali commentaries. That is why his works are academic and very informative. .... S: Well, let's go through a few lines at a time and compare and see if this is true. .... >So, you can imagine how well-informed and well-educated his disciples and meditation participants would become. ... S: Well-informed in what regard? I've known many 'senior' Mahasi students with decades of meditation practice and study who somehow have missed core teachings about anatta, samatha and its objects, satipatthana in daily life, jhana without sensory experiences, strange ideas about bhavanga cittas and so on. ... >When I have spare time, I will offer Vibhajjavaada treatment on K Sujin's position on meditation. ... S: Like Ken H, I'm looking forward to it, preferably with a detailed comparason of her comments and those found in the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries to highlight her errors. I think this would be helpful too. Suan, we disagree on many points, but I sincerely appreciate the fact that you take the trouble to share your understanding with us here and enjoy your discussions with Ken H and other friends. I hope temperatures are now cooling in Canberra and Victoria. Metta, Sarah ======== #95938 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thinking thinks, just it. No problem at all. sarahprocter... Hi Lukas & Howard, I enjoyed your discussion of the Sutta (?) as in #95762 H:>>I find that sutta of value to me, as it, happily, supports a >perspective of mine I consider important. I wonder what you think is >the gist of the sutta. For me, the point of the sutta is >distinguishing mere view/opinion from knowing, with Ananda responding >with regard to each of several topics on which he was questioned as >to his holding one or another viewpoint, that he holds no viewpoint >but, on the other hand, does know what is what with respect to >the matter. >L: I am glad that you like it. I think it's not only about viewpoints or 'extreams'. It's also about thinking. >>H: Our job, among others, it seems to me, is to be careful in >distinguishing what we know from what we believe, and to assert only >as belief what one doesn't truly know as fact. >L: what do you mean by facts? Ananda didn't has any ideas about reality. He known exactly what's going on. >He said: >"The extent to which there are viewpoints, view-stances, the taking up of views, obsessions of views, the cause of views, & the uprooting of views: that's what I know. That's what I see. Knowing that, I say 'I know.' Seeing that, I say 'I see.' Why should I say 'I don't know, I don't see'? I do know. I do see." >L: he didn't know the content of thinking, but he known how it arises and falls away. He known that's just nama which thinks not 'us'. I think it's really important. .... S: I think this last comment (and both your earlier ones) point to important points too. As you say, Ananda knew "exactly what's going on." When we point out that there is only visible object appearing now through the eye-sense, I don't think we have to say each time that this is what we believe. It can be tested and proved now as we speak, as with sound and thinking about what is seen and heard. Metta, Sarah ====== #95939 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why Are KS Folk Silent? Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Scott), --- On Sun, 8/2/09, kenhowardau wrote: >Even when a group of like-minded people get together 'gunslingers' will emerge. It might be just the way someone hogs the conversation a bit too much - or munches his cornflakes too loudly at breakfast- but there will always be some behaviour that we deem inconsiderate. >This is because the gunslingers are ultimately in our own minds. They are the akusala cittas and cetasikas, and the only defence against their inconsiderate behaviours is adosa. Compared to them the conventional gunslingers are a pushover. :-) .... S: Excellent and so very true! As we know, people even had complaints about arahats - the way one walked or talked, for example.....As you say, it's the gunslingers in our minds that have to be known and tamed! Helpful reminders for us all, no matter what gatherings we may find ourselves in! Metta, Sarah ======= #95940 From: "jessicamui" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:02 am Subject: Re: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 3 jessicamui Dear Sarah and all, I must thank Sarah for introducing A. Sujin to me and giving me the Survey to read earlier. I read Abhidhamma on and off since I started to practice meditation in Myanmar in 2002. To me, it was quite "dry" and theoretical until I met with A. Sujin last week. I was delighted to find out through the Q&A session that Pariyatti is nothing other than experiencing the reality at the presence moment. It is not memorizing and studying the scriptures, it is also studying and understanding the reality through the present-moment experience. During the several discussion sessions with Sujin, I appreciate very much the facts that Sujin answered almost all the questions by using the present moment example that one can understand and validate through experience right away. It is not just intellectual understanding. Even when I raised the topic of Dependent Origination, Sujin answered in a very simple and straight forwarded way which I could understand the points right away. I hope that I didn't let Sarah down by not bringing up the topic of "meditation". It is because that I can see that there are many ways to experience and understand the reality. I do not have any "questions" or doubts on how I come to understand the Dhamma through the meditation retreat, nor do I disagree with the facts that the dhamma can be experienced every moment in the daily life. I'm also very happy to meet Nina and all the other friends. I look forward to discussing Dhamma with you in the near future. Metta, Jessica. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, (esp. Scott, Herman, Alan Mc A.) > > More excellent discussions and a special thanks to Jessica who raised a great number of excellent points and had some great dialogues with K.Sujin, especially on the topics of practice, understanding, vipassana and jhana. She'd just spent a couple of months or so helping with a Mahasi-style retreat in Myanmar and is now on her way back to Hong Kong. I think her comments and reflections will be very interesting. > #95941 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why Are KS Folk Silent? Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? sarahprocter... Hi TG & all, --- On Sat, 7/2/09, TGrand458@... wrote: >So when the Buddha says -- "An effort should be made" ... that is a 'condition' that can effect other conditions -- such as understanding, volition, etc. and produce results. In the highest sense, there is no control....there are just conditions interacting in accordance with natural forces. But from a practical point of view, it appears as if there is control. And outcomes, cultivation, development, etc. are able to be generated in conjunction with deluded perspectives. ..perspective that think "they" are controlling the events. >This just goes to prove that DSGer's can't get it wrong all the time. But God help em they sure try. ;-) ... S: ;-) Yes, it goes to show that sometimes we're very much on the same 'wave-length' Look forward to more of the same in due course:-)) Metta, Sarah ======= #95942 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 3 sarahprocter... Dear Jessica, Thanks so much for your note. We were all delighted to have you in the discussions (as I mentioned at the start of one of my sets of notes) and it seemed very quiet after you were gone! --- On Mon, 16/2/09, jessicamui wrote: >I hope that I didn't let Sarah down by not bringing up the topic of "meditation" . ... S: Actually, what we were discussing was 'meditation' throughout and the fact that you could appreciation the discussion relating to the present moment and realities appearing now indicated that you understood there was no need to talk about any particular situations or activities at all. We'll look forward to another such occasion with you and to meeting you and friends again in Hong Kong. I hope you and Mae had a good trip home. Metta, Sarah ======= #95943 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for comment - etc. sarahprocter... Dear Connie, Lukas & all, --- On Sat, 7/2/09, connie wrote: << (b) Materiality Aggregate 7. Now, in order to point out these, namely the materiality aggregate and so on, by classifying them, he said: Tattha katamo ruupakkhando? <1.3> ("Herein which is the materiality aggregate?") and so on. Herein, tattha ("herein) [means] among these five aggregates; katamo ("which") is a question showing desire to speak; ruupakkhandho ("materiality aggregate") is the description of the thing to be asked about. 8. Now, classifying that, he said: Ya.m ki~nci ruupa.m <1.4> ("whatever materiality" ) and so on. Herein, Ya.m ki~nci ("whatever") is all-inclusive; ruupa.m ("materiality" ) prevents over-generalisation . Thus the laying hold of materiality without remainder is effected by the two expressions. >> end quote. ... S: This was from Dispeller, Suttanta Division, you said. "Whatever materiality" - whatever materiality - each is rupa khandha is how I understand it. None excluded. Thanks again for sharing your study corner. Metta, Sarah ====== #95944 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (& Pt), --- On Thu, 5/2/09, szmicio wrote: >> pt: > I'm inerested in this as It seems these questions are closely related to a paradox I've > encountered here on DSG as well as in Nina's books - two completely opposing advices > given at the same time: > 1) there's no control, no one can make sati, panna, etc, arise. > 2) we should cultivate development of sati, panna, etc. >L: Actually, that's not Pradox. Middle way is so subtle. Sometimes I find those 2 points very hard to understand, but in such moments it's good to know that's just thinking. ... S: Well-said. At such moments of understanding 'that's just thinking', no paradox. .... >>pt: As a beginner, I can see how the above two advices can be useful in > certain situations to > avoid extremes, but in > my current understanding, they completely oppose each other, so i >have no idea how to > reconcile them so that they are practically useful all the time. >L: Only pa~n~na can recouncil it. When moments of understanding arises(on conditions) there is no Self, no control of anything. That's the only reality. .... S: Again, excellent comments and good points raised by Pt. Metta, Sarah p.s We can't say 'all realities can arise as ti-hetuka' or that 'when citta is ti-hetuka it's the development of the 8-fold path'. However, the main point that it's not "WE" developing anything was the important one. ====== #95945 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kalyana mitta sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, --- On Thu, 5/2/09, szmicio wrote: for any passeges from tipitaka dealing with right > friendship as a condition for right understanding. ... S: There's a good passage in the Udana commentary (which Connie has,I believe, transl. by Masefield). This is a link to the sutta itself: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.4.01.irel.html The following is from an old message I wrote on it: >From Meghiya Chapter, Udana 1 Meghiya, comy (Masefield, PTS): "When liberation of heart is not fully mature , Meghiya, five things conduce to full maturity." He then proceeds to elaborate on these five conditions conducive to the development of wisdom. ***** These five in brief are: 1. The good friend 2. Morality. "..............seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom....." 3. Talk concerned with the Dhamma and development of wholesome states 4. the 4 Right Efforts 5. Insight leading to the destruction of dukkha. ***** With regard to the first point, the good friend, the commentary adds a lot of detail."This is the first thing that conduces to full maturity (aya.m pa.thamo dhammo paripaakaaya sa.mvattati): this blameless thing, reckoned as possession of a lovely friend, which is first on acount of its having been spoken of at the beginning of these five things due to its being primary for living the Brahmacariya and due to its being pre-eminent on account of its being of great service to all skilled states, conduces to liveration of heart's full maturity by way of causing there to be purified (the faculties of) faith and so that are as yet unpurified...." It then quotes various suttas about the value of the "lovely friend": "For this, Ananda, forms the entire Brahmacariya, that is to say, possession of a lovely friend" and so on (uttered by the Lord) to the Treasurer of the Dhamma when stating "This forms half, Lord, of the Brahmacariya, that is to say, possession of a lovely friend" after having twice put a stop to this with "Do not (speak) thus, Ananda" (S v2) Earlier the commentary says: "Since he proceeds, by way of both mind and body, in a state that slopes, tends, inclines towards lovely individuals alone, he is "one with a lovely intimate". by means of this triad of words, he gives rise to regard with respect to association with a lovely friend." **** I find this last paragraph very helpful to reflect on. Isn't it true that whilst at times we 'slope...' towards listening and conversing on dhamma with good friends ('one with a lovely intimate'), at other times we 'slope....' in the opposite direction. I think this is often true (for me at least) regardless of the company I'm in - we may be with 'good friends' but wish to 'slope..' in directions not conducive to understanding of dhammas or we may be with 'not such good friends', but 'slope...' towards wise reflection. Do you have any further comments?< Metta, Sarah ========= #95946 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner sarahprocter... Dear All, --- On Thu, 5/2/09, Scott wrote: >The Path of Purification. "[Texts and Commentary] "44. Now it is by means of one of these jhaanas beginning with the first that he 'Dwells pervading (intent upon) one direction with his heart endued with lovingkindness, likewise the second direction, likewise the third direction, likewise the fourth direction, and so above, below, and around; everywhere and equally he dwells pervading the entire world with his heart endued with lovingkindness, abundant, exalted, measureless, free from enmity, and free from affliction' (Vbh. 272; D.i,250). For this versatility comes about *only* in one whose consciousness has reached absorption in the first jhaana and the rest." .... S: With *only* in the last sentence being a key word. [*...* added in text by me.] Metta, Sarah ====== #95947 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:02 am Subject: Re: Request for comment - etc. szmicio Dear Sarah > >L: What does Buddha mean by that? > paritta means also: insignificant, small, little. > Rupa is paritta, what does it mean? In what sense it is "low"? > > ------------ --- > >2)Is characteristic of plane of desire(kaamaavacara ). > Why is that? What does 'being kaamaavacara' indicate? > .... > S: As usual, the answers are in your questions! Kaamaavacara objects are low and insignificant as compared to those which are high or exalted as objects of jhana cittas, for example. L: That's what is in Questionare, 203 on "objects", I think so. >Even non-lokuttara panna of insight is insignificant or low in this >sense, arising and falling away immediately, experiencing ordinary >kaamavacara objects. L: Yeah, but paritta here refers to rupa. As I understand it, rupa is paritta, it's never lokuttara, it's always lokiya , so that's why its paritta. Best wishes Lukas #95948 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:20 am Subject: Re: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 3 szmicio Dear Jessica >I was delighted to find out through the Q&A session that Pariyatti is >nothing other than experiencing the reality at the presence moment. >It is not memorizing and studying the scriptures, it is also studying >and understanding the reality through the present-moment experience. L: That's so important point for all of us. I am constatnly forgetting about what is Pariyatti and Patipatti. Then I have to be reminded more and more and then i remeber it again :>. This point that Pariyatti is not only reading and studying but also "applaying" dhamma in life is very important. So Patipatti is direct moment of experiencing realies. But Then what is pativeda???? ;> My best wishes Lukas #95949 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:27 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner jonoabb Hi Scott > The idea that notions regarding self-directed 'practise' are to be > carefully considered and not misunderstood is very much seen as fringe > thinking or heresy or lunacy by many these days. Yes, we are the lunatic fringe (or worse) to those who hold to notions of a prescribed formal practice ;-)) Jon #95950 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. jonoabb Hi Robert E > I appreciate your ongoing responses. See below for more botheration. Never a bother at all to discuss the teachings ;-)) > What would be the intention of regularly posting and reading sutta as > part of an online discussion group if it was not to aid one's practice > of Dhamma, and one's understanding of Dhamma? Are you saying that it > is more kusala to post to dsg out of boredom or a desire for > companionship or just 'cause you feel like it, then to be interested > in it for Dhamma? The point I've been making relates to the doing of something *as part of a practice* vs. activites not done for that particular purpose. For example, you and I both "regularly post and read suttas as part of an online discussion group", but I'm sure neither of us does so believing that we are thereby developing the path at such moments. So there is a crucial difference between the (general) case of meditation and the (general) case of reading suttas. Activities such as posting to the list cannot be categorised as either kusala or akusala. It will no doubt involve a mixture of both kinds of mental states ;-)) > This would not make sense to me that "the more > arbitrary and accidentally the teachings arise the better." > It seems very odd, if so. Not sure what you have in mind here by "the teachings arise", but I hope I've clarified that my comments have been directed to activity considered to be or to be part of "the practice" and not to intentional activity in general. > > Likewise meditation undertaken because of its supposed health > > benefits. (No rule either way in either case.) > > So it would be okay to do yoga or meditation for some ancillary reason > having nothing to do with Dhamma, ... Although it may not involve wrong practice or the development of wrong view, it doesn't mean we can say it would be okay (it may, for example, be done with a lot of conceit and attachment to the physical body). What it means is that in there will not be wrong practice and the accumulation of wrong view as regards the development of the path. But that's about all that can be said. > but to do it because Buddha > mentioned it as a means for developing sati will spoil the soup. Well this brings us to the nub of the matter: what it was that the Buddha said about the development of sati. If in fact he did prescribe any specific "means for developing sati", then of course that means should be followed. If there are any passages from the texts that you feel are particularly clear in stating or supporting your position on this point, then please feel free to quote them. > > Please let me know if you feel the question has not been addressed. > > It seems like a continuation of the idea that any intentional activity > is akusala. I've never said (nor meant to suggest) that intentional activity is necessarily akusala. My comments all along in this thread have been directed to activities undertaken in the (mistaken) belief that they constitute in and of themselves the development of the path. > I don't think this reflects the reality of why anyone is > here or reading sutta or meditating or studying or translating > Abhidhamma, so it seems to be based on a kind of skewed concept. > There is no one here who is not here because they want to progress in > the Dhamma and on the path. That is the only reason a committed > Buddhist does such things. Perhaps that is why there are so few > arahats around. Our good intentions are too strong and they are > getting in the way of the accidental arising of panna. I hope there's no "skewed concept" in the explanation I've given above. Please let me know if there's anything on the subject of "intentional activity" that's not yet clear. Jon #95951 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? szmicio Dear Sarah >We can't say 'all realities can arise as ti-hetuka' or that 'when >citta is ti-hetuka it's the development of the 8-fold path'. However, >the main point that it's not "WE" developing anything was the >important one. L: Generally i mean that when is pa~n~na of a level of satiatthana, there is always a PATH(I am not talking about magga-cittas). I think that Robert Ep. said recently that path is a concept, but that is not so. It's a reality, which we can experience. which arise because of accumulations of pa~n~na, not because of our efforts. That's how I understand it. In my head still sounds Ajahn words: "When there is pa~n~na there are always right effort, sati... no need for an extra effort ":> It so important to understand there is no Self, which has control over realities. I think we should consider qualities of sotapanna more and more. I want to hear Dhamma from you. There is so many doubts. My best wishes Lukas #95960 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:36 am Subject: Theravada Does Not Mean Commentaries Re: K.Sujin on meditation... abhidhammika Dear Robert Ep, James, TG, colette, Howard, Herman, Robert K, Nina, Alex, Sarah, Jon, Alberto and all How are you? Robert Ep wrote and asked: "Another point raised by the Dhammanando article is that there appear to be not only commentaries to the Abhidhamma but to the suttas as well, and that they appear to be necessary to understand the meaning of some of the suttas. Are these sutta commentaries available? And do most sutta students know about them?" Suan replies: Yes, Robert, I have the whole Pali Tipi.taka, all the Pali commentaries and all the Pali subcommentaries. As I read the Buddha's teachings in Pali every day, I also consult the commentaries in Pali every day. James wrote: "The word "Theravada" literally means the "teaching of the elders"...i. e. the commentaries." Suan replies: No, James. I do not know where you got that information. If you could remember your source, I would appreciate if you provide it. Perhaps, you may have been a victim of Sanskritist propaganda. By the way, translating the Pali term `Theravada' as the teaching of the elders reflects outdated Pali scholarship. I suspect that there are some Sanskritists who do not like Theravada Buddhism being accepted as representing the Buddha's original teachings or the earliest school of Buddhism. In their effort to give equal footing to their favourite school(s) of Buddhism, they speculated a mythical prototype of Buddhism or imagined something like a database Buddhism from which different schools of Buddhism later developed. The end result of the Sanskritists' agenda is Aacariya Mahaa Buddhaghosa becoming the alleged founder of Theravada in 500 AC, while Naagarjuna becoming the founder of Mahayana in 200 AC. Very clever agenda, indeed! Robert Ep wrote: "If Theravada refers most directly to the commentaries, why is it then used for the overall name of the teachings that include the entire Tipitaka." Suan replies: No, Robert, the term `Theravada' in Theravada Buddhism does not refer to the commentaries at all. There are two collections of verses in Pali called Thera Gaathaa and Therii Gaathaa in Khuddakanikaayo. Here the terms `Thera' and `Therii' mean Arahants and female Arahants. Thus, the term `Theravada' in Theravada Buddhism means The teachings of the Arahants. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #95961 From: "jessicamui" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:02 am Subject: Re: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 3 jessicamui Dear Lukas, Sarah and all, We discussed the difference between the pariyatti, pattatti and pativeda with Sujin last week. Sarah and the ones who were there: please correct my understandings if it is wrong: Pariyatti is to experience the present moment nama/rupu phenomenon with sati where panna may or not not present. Pattatti is the sati arising with panna momentarily. The panna may be week, may be strong. It can discern the reality. Pativeda:vipassana nana level of panna where the panna is quite mature and well established. Metta, Jessica. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > So Patipatti is direct moment of experiencing realies. But Then what > is pativeda???? ;> > > My best wishes > Lukas > #95962 From: "jessicamui" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:21 am Subject: Re: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 3 jessicamui Dear Sarah and all, While meeting with Sujin last week, we discussed that when one is in jhana, all the citta and cetasikas experience the same object of meditation - the nimita. Therefore, although piti and sukha are present in the lower levels of jhana, the mind does NOT know it while in jhana, nor does the body experience the rapture since it is a mental phenomenon. When I read Maha-Assapura Sutta of MN39 (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikku Bodhi), under the four jhanas(p367), it is said that ".. he enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thoughts, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. He makes the rapture and pleasure born of seclusion drench, steep, fill and pervade this body, so that there is no part of his whole body unpervaded by the rapture and pleasure born of seclusion..." Does this mean the person is no longer in jhana since he directs his mind to experience the rapture ? Thanks for your clarification in advance. Jessica. #95963 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:16 pm Subject: Theravada Does Not Mean Commentaries Re: K.Sujin on meditation... buddhatrue Hi Suan (and Rob E), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > James wrote: > > "The word "Theravada" literally means the "teaching of the > elders"...i. e. the commentaries." > > Suan replies: > > No, James. I do not know where you got that information. If you > could remember your source, I would appreciate if you provide it. James: I have read that from many sources. Here is a quote from Wikipedia: Theravada (Pâli: थेरवाद theravâda (cf Sanskrit: स्थविरवाद sthaviravâ da); literally, "the Teaching of the Elders", or "the Ancient Teaching") is the oldest surviving Buddhist school. It was founded in India. It is relatively conservative, and generally closest to early Buddhism[1], and for many centuries has been the predominant religion of Sri Lanka (about 70% of the population[2]) and most of continental Southeast Asia (Cambodia, Laos, Burma, Thailand). It is also practiced by minorities in parts of southwest China (by the Shan and Tai ethnic groups), Vietnam (by the Khmer Krom), Bangladesh (by the ethnic groups of Baruas, Chakma, and Magh), Malaysia and Indonesia, whilst recently gaining popularity in Singapore and the Western World. Today Theravada Buddhists number over 100 million worldwide, and in recent decades Theravada has begun to take root in the West and in the Buddhist revival in India. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada > Perhaps, you may have been a victim of Sanskritist propaganda. James: I have no idea what that means. Is Wikipedia considered Sanskritist propaganda? :-) > > By the way, translating the Pali term `Theravada' as the teaching of > the elders reflects outdated Pali scholarship. James: I would just have to take your word for that. > > I suspect that there are some Sanskritists who do not like Theravada > Buddhism being accepted as representing the Buddha's original > teachings or the earliest school of Buddhism. In their effort to > give equal footing to their favourite school(s) of Buddhism, they > speculated a mythical prototype of Buddhism or imagined something > like a database Buddhism from which different schools of Buddhism > later developed. James: This sounds like some sort of unfounded conspiracy theory. Theravada is one of the oldest surviving schools of Buddhism. It wasn't the only school nor the first school- and it doesn't 100% represent the Buddha's original teaching. Theravada gets its unique emphasis and philosophy from the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. > > The end result of the Sanskritists' agenda is Aacariya Mahaa > Buddhaghosa becoming the alleged founder of Theravada in 500 AC, > while Naagarjuna becoming the founder of Mahayana in 200 AC. Very > clever agenda, indeed! James: Theravada developed over time. Buddhaghosa is just a prominent scholar in that development. > > Thus, the term `Theravada' in Theravada Buddhism means The teachings > of the Arahants. James: I don't see what difference it makes to define Theravada as "The teachings of the Arahants" or "The teachings of the Elders". The important thing to consider is that it doesn't mean "The teaching of the Buddha". Metta, James #95964 From: "connie" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:05 pm Subject: re: cornerstone nichiconn dear sarah, p.s. Again, I wonder about Abhvt and Abhvk???? a couple possibilities here - p.xvi, Summary and Expo: ...Suma"ngala wrote a somewhat longer commentary to the Abhidhammaavataara, the Abhidhammatthavikaasinii, to which he refers in the Abhidhammatthavibhaaviii{-.tiikaa}. peace, connie #95965 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:08 pm Subject: Re: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 3 gazita2002 hello Jessica and others, would like to comment here - to see if I understand as well ..... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jessicamui" wrote: > > Dear Sarah and all, > > While meeting with Sujin last week, we discussed that when one is in > jhana, all the citta and cetasikas experience the same object of > meditation - the nimita. Therefore, although piti and sukha are > present in the lower levels of jhana, the mind does NOT know it > while in jhana, nor does the body experience the rapture since it is > a mental phenomenon. > > When I read Maha-Assapura Sutta of MN39 (translated by Bhikkhu > Nanamoli and Bhikku Bodhi), under the four jhanas(p367), it is said > that ".. he enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is > accompanied by applied and sustained thoughts, with rapture and > pleasure born of seclusion. He makes the rapture and pleasure born > of seclusion drench, steep, fill and pervade this body, so that > there is no part of his whole body unpervaded by the rapture and > pleasure born of seclusion..." > > Does this mean the person is no longer in jhana since he directs his > mind to experience the rapture ? > > Thanks for your clarification in advance. > > Jessica. azita: I think there are still Jhana cittas. Because as stated, the first jhana is accompanied by rapture and pleasure, and so even tho it says 'he makes' the rapture etc drench etc the body, i believe there is no 'he' to make anything occur. It is just a fact that the rapture does what its meant to do - so to speak - pervades the whole body. would also be glad for clarification on this - I may have it completely wrong :-( May all beings be happy, azita #95966 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > I've never said (nor meant to suggest) that intentional activity is > necessarily akusala. My comments all along in this thread have been > directed to activities undertaken in the (mistaken) belief that they > constitute in and of themselves the development of the path. What I'm still confused about is the idea that studying Abhidhamma, etc. is not "a practice." Or even discerning realities in everyday life once having read about that in the commentaries or modern teachers' talks. If one thinks this is "the path" then when one does it, it is "a practice." Would you not agree with that? And do you think it is possible to be "unintentional" about the path so that it is allowed to arise completely on its own? Thanks, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #95967 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > Well there is a crucial difference between meditation and sutta > reading, in that the former is an activity that is usually undertaken > in the belief that it constitutes the development of the path, while > the latter is not. I guess this makes the subject a bit more clear, and I would disagree with you on this. I can't imagine why anyone would read a sutta if they did not believe it was developing the path for them. Are they reading it for fun? For general interest? I doubt it. > > > > However, it would be wrong to think that a practice of so much > time > > > spent reading the suttas, or attending discussions, could itself > be > > > the development of the path. > > > > > > Hoping this is clearer. > > > > That is clearer, Jon, but doesn't explain why the culture of this > > group is to spend an enormous amount of time intentionally studying > > commentaries, and no time spent meditating or discussing the role of > > meditation. One must believe that activity A is more implicityly > > valuable or kusala than activity B, and is that right view or wrong > view? > > No time spent discussing the role of meditation?? I seem to have > been doing nothing else of late ;-)) That is fun, but respectfully, doesn't really answer the question, of which I am sincerely interested. Is serious study of Abhidhamma and commentary for serious students *not* done in the understanding that "it is developing the path?" If not, then what is the purpose? Best, Robert E. =========================== #95968 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > > > We're still not on quite the same wavelength (but it's always > good > > > talking to you) ;-)) > > > > Thanks, Jon, I appreciate that. :-) > > Well I hope you had no cause to think otherwise. I very much > appreciate your persistence in pressing the points you wish to make, > and in asking for further explanation where you feel a question has > not been directly addressed. We are often accused of positions such > as 'denying volitional actions' or similar by interlocutors who do > not stay around long enough to allow us to explain why that is a > misunderstanding of what is being said. > > Jon Yes, I could see that as being frustrating, as clearly you have a principled point of view that requires some understanding to get at. I will try to stick around long enough - though I may lose my job, marriage, etc. in the meantime. Just kidding..... Best, Robert E. =========================== #95969 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:01 pm Subject: Re: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > I think the point is that a single moment of panna/insight is indeed > the development of panna/insight. (And BTW, we are talking about the > noun "development", not the verb "to develop".) That is interesting. The contexts and translations I have seen -- and you may think they are too modern -- suggest that it is being used as a noun that is a verb-form as opposed to the result of a developmental process. Just to clarify: The former would be like this: "The ongoing development of insight is caused by continuous meditation." :-))))) The latte would be, as you suggest, "the arising of a moment of jhana-citta represents a significant development on the path." > Can you suggest a better word to use? Well...how about occurrence? If it is not something that "is developing" and represents a process of development, then I think what you are saying really is just that "it happened." Development certainly seems to indicate that it's part of an ongoing process. Of course, certain conditions arose to cause it to happen, but it would get rid of the confusion if occurrence were used instead of development. It seems to me that the existence of the word bhavanga or "mental development" or what-have-you, seems to strongly indicate that you are talking about "working on something to develop it" or at the very least that a series of events have transpired to cause something to reach a more mature stage. > > So I think it would be a mistake to translate vipassana-bhavana in a > > way that would merely mean a moment of vipassana. > > But I read you as having just said that "development" did *not* carry > the connotation of merely a moment of vipassana ;-)) Right, I'm underlining that, not contradicting it. I'm saying that *you,* Jon, should not do that. I am already not doing it. ;-) > > From the Vipassana Research Institute: > > Bhavana-maya pannabhavana-maya panna is the wisdom obtained by > > meditation-the wisdom that comes from the direct experience of > the > > truth. This development of insight is also called vipassana- > > bhavana (Vipassana meditation). > > But do you have any authority that is earlier than this? > > Jon You're sending me on another research project. I am thrilled that you want to take final authority from sutta. I will do my best - may take some time - to find an early enough reference to make the discussion interesting. It may come down to me learning Pali and figuring out what the Abhidhamma is *really* saying. :-) Best, Robert E. =========================== #95970 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:05 pm Subject: Theravada Does Not Mean Commentaries Re: K.Sujin on meditation... epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > No, Robert, the term `Theravada' in Theravada Buddhism does not > refer to the commentaries at all. > > There are two collections of verses in Pali called Thera Gaathaa > and Therii Gaathaa in Khuddakanikaayo. Here the terms `Thera' > and `Therii' mean Arahants and female Arahants. > > Thus, the term `Theravada' in Theravada Buddhism means The teachings > of the Arahants. Hi Suan, this is good stuff! I wish I had all your collections of suttas and commentaries. And I wish I was capable of reading them! :) I wonder why they picked 'Theravada' for the Tipitaka, rather than a word that simply meant "The teachings of the Buddha?" How did the Arahants get the upper hand? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #95971 From: "connie" Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:53 pm Subject: RFC - etc. khanda nichiconn so, sarah, lukas, here's another highly questionable quote: seems the PO got vandalized so now they're locking it up when they aren't there. & yeah, that little bummed feeling is my own bad 'karma that'll bite me back' somelife around. well, not terribly bad & no i can't really say i've seen it addressed to the layfolk, but there's this saying about "seeing danger in the slightest fault". because? you know how it falls one flake at a time & gets to be pretty heavy... the snow, like our habitual ways of being and the (inevitable?) pile-ups. haven't seen the snow thing in the books yet, but they do talk about drops of water so... I think I'm/it's orthodox enough. but it's not really 'karma' that bites... the fruition side is vipaaka and how the fruit is enjoyed makes or breaks new kamma. might say old kamma grew the apple; but the biting is something else that comes down to how the new the seeds are sewn. a case of weave 'em and reap, if you will. we think we're this on-going ego dude but buddha said that is conventional, conceptual... you take the old fruit waggon apart and you've got five heaps of parts. pa~nca(5) khandha(heap): 4 have no physical attributes. 1 only does & that one is called ruupa-kkhandha(aggregate). khandha's a pretty cool word... lotsa connotations and 'synonymi' (to coin a term). but ultimately, there's a heap more breaking down to do to fully consider the matter (haha and the immaterial sides). an actual and purely mental breakdown into tedium and beyond if you like... and if you don't? still the same. now if that don't make you feel sorry for the guy who comes after you... riding your old busted up heap he's constantly re-building himself... might say the poor old guy's always working on a fix. == me, talking to my uncle today. but yeah, that's my basic understanding. that the best thing is to leave nothing for the next guy. i like, too, speaking of khandha, about the tree... cut down, chopped up, finely reduced to ashes. no puppet makings there. and isn't there something about the trunk of the teachings?? well, I know there's The Soil of Understanding and mine's not too deep so thanks again for making me read. there's them conditions working for me again... musta lived right somewhence along the way. thought I'd look in Wijeratne & Gethin's abhidamma ch. on ruupa along with Bodhi's now that pt gave us the link for cma in case there were some interesting differences to share but so far, stuck in the first pages of the book. we'll see. also thought I had some of Ledi Sayadaw Manuals, but maybe not anymore. Just curious as to why 'such a fuss'... probably wouldn't know if I read it. but I like this first footnote of the Summary & Topics Prologue, p1: Compassion and wisdom of persons who have not attained awakening is not pure because they are biased by latent defilements (anusaya-kilesa). As Buddhas and arahats are free of all dormant passions, both their compassion and wisdom are perfectly pure. peace, connie #95972 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:01 am Subject: Re: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation ptaus1 Hi Jon > Great to have this particular text available in this format. I > wonder what else they have? Well there are quite a few books on Buddhism there. Not so many on abhidhamma though, ACM is the best find so far. That's regarding what's available in Full view. There are a lot more books available in Limited preview (which means that usually more than half of a book is available online) like Abhidhamma studies by Nyanaponika/Bodhi, as well as more general ones like The great disciples of the Buddha by Bodhi (I love this one) etc. I guess google books will keep getting better with time. Best wishes pt #95973 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:10 am Subject: Re: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation ptaus1 Hi Lukas, > I was wondering whether there is any possibility to download it? > On-line reading is not very comfortable. Connie already answered your question, I would just like to thank connie for giving that website which has Dhammasangani in English, as well as Vibhanga and first volume of Patthana – this is the first time I saw online an actual abhidhamma book from the tipitaka in English. I hope at some point all 7 abhidhamma books will get online. Best wishes pt #95974 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:24 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "56. Those who would have it that there is not only a mere verbal difference between 'beings', 'breathing things', etc., but also an actual difference in meaning, are contradicted by the mention of unspecified pervasion. So instead of taking the meaning in that way, the unspecified pervasion with lovingkindness is done in any one of these five ways. "And here, 'may all beings be free from enmity' is one absorption; free from affliction is one absorption - free from affliction (abyaabajjha) is free from afflictedness (byaabaadha-rahitta); free from anxiety is free from suffering; 'may they live happily' is one absorption. Consequently he should do his pervading with lovingkindness according to whichever of these phrases is clear to him. So with with the four kinds of absorption in each of the five ways, there are twenty kinds of absorption in unspecified pervasion." Path of Purity. "But those who would seek a difference between 'beings, creatures' and so on, not merely as terms, but also as to their meaning, go counter to the unspecified suffusion of love. Therefore without having regard to such meaning love should be suffused unspecifically for one or other of the five forms. And here, 'May all beings be without enmity!' - this is one ecstasy. 'Be without ill-will!' - this is another ecstasy. 'Without ill-will' means bereft of ill-will. 'Be without harm!' - this is another ecstasy. 'Without harm' means rid of ill. 'Keep well,' - this is another ecstasy. Therefore whichever clause among the five is made plain, by that should love be suffused. Thus four ecstasies each in the five forms give twenty ecstasies in the unspecified suffusion of love." Ye pana sattaa paa.naatiaadiina.m na kevala.m vacanamattatova, atha kho atthatopi naanattameva iccheyyu.m, tesa.m anodhisophara.naa virujjhati, tasmaa tathaa attha.m agahetvaa imesu pa~ncasu aakaaresu a~n~nataravasena anodhiso mettaa pharitabbaa. Ettha ca sabbe sattaa averaa hontuuti ayamekaa appanaa. Abyaapajjaa hontuuti ayamekaa appanaa. Abyaapajjaati byaapaadarahitaa. Aniighaa hontuuti ayamekaa appanaa. Aniighaati niddukkhaa. Sukhii attaana.m pariharantuuti ayamekaa appanaa. Tasmaa imesupi padesu ya.m ya.m paaka.ta.m hoti, tassa tassa vasena mettaa pharitabbaa. Iti pa~ncasu aakaaresu catunna.m appanaana.m vasena anodhisophara.ne viisati appanaa honti. Sincerely, Scott. #95975 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:49 am Subject: Re: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation szmicio Dear Pt > > I was wondering whether there is any possibility to download it? > > On-line reading is not very comfortable. > > Connie already answered your question, I would just like to thank > connie for giving that website which has Dhammasangani in English, as > well as Vibhanga and first volume of Patthana – L: Well, can you give me a link? somehow i missed it out ;> Thanks a lot. Lukas #95976 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:09 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear connie, Lukas, Regarding: c: "...Actually, some of those definitions remind me of 'friendship' (kalyaa.namitta)...remembering our What is 'kalyaa.namitta'? conversation...in this very life {di.t.th' eva dhamme} a Tathaagata is not to be regarded as existing in truth, in reality...they say we're each an empty village, mud hutter! yet entirely empty or is there the influencial echoing of past 'practice', that caya - these becoming (yet unlovely, miserable) aggregates, bases, elements, the 'being' bombarbed with grosser 'surface' impacts on the 5 sense side & the more 'spacey' mental impingers following on after to lead on --& whether 'what's a-happening' is the calling of the village raiders or the welcomed guest, isn't is usually 'the enemy within' guarding us?.." Scott: From Puggala-Pa~n~natti, Division of Human Types by Four (pp. 56-57): "What sort of person is of lovely disposition? Here a certain person refrains from killing life, refrains from taking what is not given, refrains from misbehaving in sensual pleasures, refrains from speaking falsehood, refrains from slanderous speech, refrains from using harsh language, refrains from gossip, is not covetous or malevolent, is an upholder of right views. Such a person is said to be of lovely disposition. 138. Katamo ca puggalo kalyaa.no? Idhekacco puggalo paa.naatipaataa pa.tivirato hoti, adinnaadaanaa pa.tivirato hoti , kaamesumicchaacaaraa pa.tivirato hoti, musaavaadaa pa.tivirato hoti, pisu.naaya vaacaaya pa.tivirato hoti, pharusaaya vaacaaya pa.tivirato hoti, samphappalaapaa pa.tivirato hoti, anabhijjhaalu hoti, abyaapannacitto hoti, sammaadi.t.thi [sammaadi.t.thii (ka.)] hoti - aya.m vuccati puggalo 'kalyaa.no'. "What sort of person is more lovely than one of lovely disposition? Here a certain person refrains from the destruction of life, and incites others as well to cease to kill; himself a refrainer from taking things not given, incites others to abstain from taking what is not given, himself refrains from misbehaving in sensual pleasures and incites others to refrain from misbehaving in sensual pleasures ... incites others to right views. Such is a person who is more lovely than one of lovely disposition." 139. Katamo ca puggalo kalyaa.nena kalyaa.nataro? Idhekacco puggalo attanaa ca paa.naatipaataa pa.tivirato hoti para~nca paa.naatipaataa verama.niyaa samaadapeti, attanaa ca adinnaadaanaa pa.tivirato hoti para~ca adinnaadaanaa verama.niyaa samaadapeti, attanaa ca kaamesumicchaacaaraa pa.tivirato hoti para~ca kaamesumicchaacaaraa verama.niyaa samaadapeti, attanaa ca musaavaadaa pa.tivirato hoti para~nca musaavaadaa verama.niyaa samaadapeti, attanaa ca pisu.naaya vaacaaya pa.tivirato hoti para~nca pisu.naaya vaacaaya verama.niyaa samaadapeti, attanaa ca pharusaaya vaacaaya pa.tivirato hoti para~nca pharusaaya vaacaaya verama.niyaa samaadapeti, attanaa ca samphappalaapaa pa.tivirato hoti para~nca samphappalaapaa verama.niyaa samaadapeti, attanaa ca anabhijjhaalu hoti para~nca anabhijjhaaya samaadapeti, attanaa ca abyaapannacitto hoti para~nca abyaapaade samaadapeti, attanaa ca sammaadi.t.thi hoti para~nca sammaadi.t.thiyaa samaadapeti - aya.m vuccati puggalo 'kalyaa.nena kalyaa.nataro'. Scott: Is it going too far to suggest that, since the Dhamma is the Teacher now, and that Dhamma is dhammaa, then the 'one of lovely disposition' is the good thought and 'more lovely' is the good thought that is condition for impulsion? Is it going too far to recall that there are no 'persons' living in the empty village? Sincerely, Scott. #95977 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:16 am Subject: Re: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation ptaus1 Hi Lukas, > L: Well, can you give me a link? somehow i missed it out ;> If you're asking for a link to connie's message where she answers your question, it's message 95916: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/95916 If you're asking for connie's link to Dhammasangani (and Vibhanga and Patthana) here is the page with abhidhamma search results: http://openlibrary.org/search?q=abhidhamma&ftokens=mhsncqbxgkup The last of the four results is actually Dhammasangani even though it's called differently, so just click on the `read online' button next to it. The title of the other three is self-evident. Best wishes pt #95978 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:28 am Subject: Re: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 3 szmicio Dear Jessica and all > Pattatti is the sati arising with panna momentarily. The panna may > be week, may be strong. It can discern the reality. > Pativeda:vipassana nana level of panna where the panna is quite > mature and well established. L: Thanks for clearning that. So patipati is a moment of satipatthana and pativeda is a moment of ~nanas which penetrates realities. > Pariyatti is to experience the present moment nama/rupu phenomenon > with sati where panna may or not not present. L: But it's still not clear. I think pariyatti is actually reading and hearing,hovewer not "dry", but with kusala. Here are also "wise thinkings". It all leads to patipatti and then to pativeda. That's from anguttara, 2, 126&127: "126. ‘‘Dveme, bhikkhave, paccayaa micchaadi.t.thiyaa uppaadaaya. Katame dve? Parato ca ghoso ayoniso ca manasikaaro. Ime kho, bhikkhave, dve paccayaa micchaadi.t.thiyaa uppaadaayaa’’ti. 127. ‘‘Dveme , bhikkhave, paccayaa sammaadi.t.thiyaa uppaadaaya. Katame dve? Parato ca ghoso, yoniso ca manasikaaro. Ime kho, bhikkhave, dve paccayaa sammaadi.t.thiyaa uppaadaayaa’’ti. There are, monks, these two conditions for the arising of wrong view. Which are two? Another's utterance and improper attention. These monks, are the two conditions for the arising of wrong view. There are, monks, these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which are two? Another's utterance and improper attention. These monks, are the two conditions for the arising of right view." My best wishes Lukas #95979 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:40 am Subject: Re: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 3 szmicio > There are, monks, these two conditions for the arising of wrong view. > Which are two? Another's utterance and improper attention. These > monks, are the two conditions for the arising of wrong view. > > There are, monks, these two conditions for the arising of right view. > Which are two? Another's utterance and improper attention. These > monks, are the two conditions for the arising of right view." Well, lol ;> I am constantly making mistakes while typing. This typo is very seriuos, sorry. There should be: "There are, monks, these two conditions for the arising of wrong view. Which are two? Another's utterance and improper attention. These monks, are the two conditions for the arising of wrong view. There are, monks, these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which are two? Another's utterance and proper attention. These monks, are the two conditions for the arising of right view." #95980 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:51 am Subject: Re: bikkhu bodhi on abhidhamma and meditation szmicio Dear Pt, Thank you very much. My best wishes Lukas #95981 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:41 am Subject: Re: RFC - Dispeller 202-207(Questionnaire) szmicio Dear Connie >Disp: 205.They have a past object (atiitaarama.na) <63.11> in one who >lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains , who establises the >laying hold through being instigated by past aggregates, elements and >bases(aayatana) ; they have a future object through being instigated >by past future [aggregates etc.]; they have a present object through >being instigated by present [aggregates etc.]. In one reviewing a >concept or nibbana, they should not be said to have [such] objects. ------ >Disp: 205.They have a past object (atiitaarama.na) <63.11> in one who >lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains , who establises the >laying hold through being instigated by past aggregates, elements and >bases(aayatana) ; they have a future object through being instigated >by past future [aggregates etc.];they have a present object through >being instigated by present [aggregates etc.] L: So it's another classification of objects as past, future, present? But what if present cittas experience past moment of consiousnes? ---- >Disp: In one reviewing a concept or nibbana, they should not be said > to have [such] objects. L: So when citta experience a concept we cannot classified it as past future, present? My best wishes Lukas #95982 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:42 am Subject: The History of Bhaavanaa As Formal Theravada Meditation Goes Back To The Buddha abhidhammika Dear Robert Ep, Jon, Sarah, Howard, James, TG, colette, Herman, Nina, Robert K, Alex and all How are you? The Buddha has used the term `bhaavanaa' to mean formal Theravada meditation in the following Pali passage. This means that the history of bhaavanaa goes back to very time of Gotama the Buddha. In this passage, the verb form of bhaavanaa which is `bhaaveti' can also be found. Bhaavanaa pahaatabbaasavaa 27. "Katame ca, bhikkhave, aasavaa bhaavanaa pahaatabbaa? idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pa.tisankhaa yoniso satisambojjhangam bhaaveti vivekanissitam viraaganissitam nirodhanissitam vossaggapari.naamim; pa.tisankhaa yoniso dhammavicayasambojjhangam bhaaveti …pe… viiriyasambojjhangam bhaaveti… piitisambojjhangam bhaaveti… passaddhisambojjhangam bhaaveti… samaadhisambojjhangam bhaaveti… upekkhaasambojjhangam bhaaveti vivekanissitam viraaganissitam nirodhanissitam vossaggapari.naamim. "Yañhissa, bhikkhave, abhaavayato uppajjeyyum aasavaa vighaatapari.laahaa, bhaavayato evamsa te aasavaa vighaatapari.laahaa na honti. ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, aasavaa bhaavanaa pahaatabbaa. Section 27, Sabbaasava Suttam, Muulapannaasa Paali, Majjhimanikaayo. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #95983 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:27 am Subject: Re: The History of Bhaavanaa As Formal Theravada Meditation Goes Back To The Buddha epsteinrob Hi Suan. > > Section 27, Sabbaasava Suttam, Muulapannaasa Paali, Majjhimanikaayo. Could you possibly translate this segment, so that it is made clear how the words are being used? Only if it is not too difficult. Thanks, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - - #95984 From: "colette" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:39 am Subject: Theravada Does Not Mean Commentaries Re: K.Sujin on meditation... ksheri3 NO BUDDHA REQUIRED Good Morning James, Yes, the propoganda concerning this Therevadan problem is difficult to wade through. Thank you for your expertise on filtering out the contaminents. Is the name Theravadan something worthy of GRASPING toward or to? Is the name THERAVADAN something worthy of CLINGING onto or with? labels or names are nothing more than a tag stuck to something, given to forms so that we can speak of them more easily; is THERAVADA or THERAVADAN a name given to a tangible object or RUPA, which we can play with or is it nothing more than a represtentational figure in the illusion of life? toodles, colette #95985 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:23 pm Subject: Re: The History of Bhaavanaa As Formal Theravada Meditation Goes Back To The Buddha scottduncan2 Dear Rob Ep, (Suan) Regarding: Bhaavanaa pahaatabbaasavaa 27. "Katame ca, bhikkhave, aasavaa bhaavanaa pahaatabbaa? idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pa.tisankhaa yoniso satisambojjhangam bhaaveti vivekanissitam viraaganissitam nirodhanissitam vossaggapari.naamim; pa.tisankhaa yoniso dhammavicayasambojjhangam bhaaveti …pe… viiriyasambojjhangam bhaaveti… piitisambojjhangam bhaaveti… passaddhisambojjhangam bhaaveti… samaadhisambojjhangam bhaaveti… upekkhaasambojjhangam bhaaveti vivekanissitam viraaganissitam nirodhanissitam vossaggapari.naamim. "Ya~nhissa, bhikkhave, abhaavayato uppajjeyyum aasavaa vighaatapari.laahaa, bhaavayato evamsa te aasavaa vighaatapari.laahaa na honti. ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, aasavaa bhaavanaa pahaatabbaa. Section 27, Sabbaasava Suttam, Muulapannaasa Paali, Majjhimanikaayo. Bhikkhus, what desires should be turned out by development? Here, the bhikkhu wisely reflecting develops the enlightenment factor mindfulness based on seclusion, detachment and cessation and ending in surrender Wisely reflecting, he develops the enlightenment factor investigation of the Teaching based on seclusion, detachment, and cessation, and ending in surrender; Wisely reflecting, he develops the enlightenment factor effort based on seclusion, detachment and cessation and ending in surrender. Wisely reflecting, he develops develops the enlightenment factor joy based on seclusion, detachment and ending in surrender. Wisely reflecting, he develops the enlightenment factor tranquillity based on seclusion, detachment and cessation and ending in surrender. Wisely reflecting, he develops the enlightenment factor concentration based on seclusion, detachment and cessation and ending in surrender. And Wisely reflecting, he develops the enlightenment factor equanimity based on seclusion, detachment and cessation and ending in surrender. Bhikkhus, to one not developing these may arise desires of burning and distress, to one developing them these desires do not arise. These desires should be turned out by development http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/002-sabbasava-sutta-e1.html Sincerely, Scott. #95986 From: "connie" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:55 pm Subject: Re: RFC - Dispeller 202-207(Questionnaire) 205 nichiconn dear lukas, Sammohavinodanii: Atiitaani pana khandhadhaatuaayatanaani aarabbha rajjantassa dussantassa muyhantassa sa.mvarantassa pariggaha.m pa.t.thapentassa atiitaaramma.naa honti, Dispeller: They [mental agg's] have -assa = genetive, possessive. a past object atiitaarama.na honta (pr.p. of hoti) existing in one [mental agg] who lusts, rajjanta (pr.p. of rajjati)finding pleasure in. rajju (f.) a rope; a cord. (dye, stain) who hates, dussati (dus + ya) offends against; becomes corrupted or angry. na santi dussa, cloth who is deluded, muyhati (muh + ya) forgets; becomes dull; infatuates. muyha (aor. of muyhati) forgot; became dull; infatuated. who restrains, sa.mvarati (sa.m + var + a) restrains; shuts; covers. sa.mvara (m.) restraint. who establishes .thapenta (pp. of .thapeti) placed; set up; established; set aside. the laying hold pariggaha (m.) taking up; possession; acquirement; grasping; belonging; a wife. gaha (m.) 1. one who catches or take possession of. 2. a planet. (nt.), house. gaahii (adj.) a holder; taker; bearer. through being instigated by aarabbha (ind.) beginning with; referring to; about. past aggregates, elements and bases(aayatana); Atiitaani pana khandhadhaatuaayatanaani anaagataani aarabbha anaagataaramma.naa honti, they have a future object through being instigated by future [aggregates etc.]; paccuppannaani aarabbha paccuppannaaramma.naa honti, they have a present object through being instigated by present [aggregates etc.]. pa~n~natti.m vaa nibbaana.m vaa paccavekkhantassa navattabbaaramma.naa honti. In one reviewing a concept or nibbana, they should not be said to have [such] objects. === L: So it's another classification of objects as past, future, present? But what if present cittas experience past moment of consiousnes? like remembering anything, or reading, how many moments of visible object we're thinking of now that are already past. i'm not sure what you're asking. L: So when citta experience a concept we cannot classified it as past future, present? lol - i believe so, but thought i asked you first! peace, connie #95987 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:17 pm Subject: Re: The History of Bhaavanaa As Formal Theravada Meditation Goes Back To The Buddha epsteinrob Hi Scott. Thanks very much for that! Best Robert Ep. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep, (Suan) > > Regarding: > > Bhaavanaa pahaatabbaasavaa =========================== #95988 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:29 pm Subject: Re: The History of Bhaavanaa As Formal Theravada Meditation Goes Back To The Buddha scottduncan2 Dear Rob Ep, Regarding: R: "Thanks very much for that!" Scott: You're welcome. I'm pretty sure its the right passage. Suan can confirm. I'll be interested in his translatory opinion. Sincerely, Scott. #95989 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:10 pm Subject: Theravada Does Not Mean Commentaries Re: K.Sujin on meditation... buddhatrue Hi Colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Is the name Theravadan something worthy of GRASPING toward or to? Is > the name THERAVADAN something worthy of CLINGING onto or with? > > labels or names are nothing more than a tag stuck to something, given > to forms so that we can speak of them more easily; is THERAVADA or > THERAVADAN a name given to a tangible object or RUPA, which we can > play with or is it nothing more than a represtentational figure in > the illusion of life? Yes, I agree that Theravada is just a word. It doesn't have any intrinsic meaning and could mean anything to anyone. Words are limited. However, when examining the traditional Theravada school of Buddhism, it is important to know what the label means. Though not entirely, it can point to a meaning. Metta, James #95990 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:27 pm Subject: Re: RFC - Dispeller 202-207(Questionnaire) 205 szmicio Dear Connie Thanks for pali analysis. ----------- > L: So it's another classification of objects as past, future, present? > But what if present cittas experience past moment of consiousnes? > > like remembering anything, or reading, how many moments of visible >object we're thinking of now that are already past. i'm not sure what >you're asking. L: That's from Nina's conditions, section on object-condition" Akusala can also be object of kusala citta, for example, when we consider defilements with right understanding and realize them as conditioned realities which are not self. We read in the same section of the "Patthana" (§408): Faulty state is related to faultless state by object condition. Learners review the eradicated defilements. They review the uneradicated defilements. They know the defilements addicted to before. Learners or common worldlings practise insight into the impermanence, suffering and impersonality of the faulty (state).... The arahat can with kiriyacitta, which is indeterminate (avyakata) dhamma, review kusala citta and akusala citta which formerly arose. Then kusala dhamma and akusala dhamma condition indeterminate dhamma by way of object. Kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma and indeterminate dhamma can be object condition for different types of citta." It also refers to our former discussions(Quest. 204) There is said that Arhat ca review citta which formerly arose, so as i understand it present citta can experience past citta. It's really hard. Nina promised that when she get back we can go throught all conditions, starting from aramana-paccaya, which is not so easy for me. I am always thinking about object like something proximate. That citta cannot experience object which is past. But I think I am wrong, what do you think Connie? My best wishes Lukas #95991 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:35 am Subject: [dsg] Survey, Ch 36, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, There is a way to find out whether one knows the truth of realities or not. When a nåma or rúpa appears through one of the six doors and paññå can distinguish between the characteristic of nåma and the characteristic of rúpa, their characteristics are known as they are. Paññå should be able to discern the different characteristics of nåma and of rúpa when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing tangible object or thinking. In this way the meaning of anattå can be penetrated; the nåma and rúpa which appear can be realized as anattå. When Ånanda asked Udåyin whether seeing-consciousness arises owing to the eye and visible object, Udåyin had no doubt about eyesense and the rúpa appearing through the eyes, while seeing at that moment. We read further on in the Sutta that Ånanda said: “Well, if the condition, if the cause of the arising of seeing- consciousness should altogether, in every way, utterly come to cease without remainder, would any seeing-consciousness be evident?” “Surely not, friend.” “Well, it is by this method that the Exalted One has explained, opened up, and shown that this consciousness also is without the self.” If one really understands that while there is hearing, there is no seeing, one can know the characteristics of realities as they are. When there is thinking about different matters there is no seeing, no hearing. There is only the nåma which thinks at such a moment about different subjects. In this way the characteristics of realities can be understood as they are. As Ånanda said to Udåyin, seeing arises dependent on eyesense and visible object which appears through the eyes, but, when eyesense and visible object which are impermanent have completely fallen away, how could seeing arise? Seeing must fall away. If someone at this moment would clearly know the characteristic of the reality which experiences an object, as an element which experiences, he would have attained already the first stage of insight knowledge, the “defining of nåma and rúpa”. One cannot develop paññå immediately to the degree of insight which is the fifth stage of “Principal Insight”, “knowledge of dispassion” (nibbidå ñåna). After the first stage of insight paññå has to be developed further so that it can directly understand conditions for the realities which arise. ******* Nina. #95992 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:47 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "57. In specified pervasion, with the four kinds of absorption in each of the seven ways, there are twenty-eight kinds of absorption. And here 'woman' and 'man' are stated according to sex; 'noble ones' and 'not noble ones' according to noble ones and ordinary people; 'deities' and 'human beings' and 'those in states of loss' according to the kind of rebirth." Path of Purity. "And four ecstasies each in the seven forms give twenty-eight in the specified suffusion of love. "And here 'women, men' are said by way of sex; 'elect, non-elect' by way of the elect and the average man; 'devas, humans, those liable to punishment after death,' by way of birth." Odhisophara.ne pana sattasu aakaaresu catunna.m vasena a.t.thaviisati. Ettha ca itthiyo purisaati li.ngavasena vutta.m. Ariyaa anariyaati ariyaputhujjanavasena. Devaa manussaa vinipaatikaati upapattivasena. Sincerely, Scott. #95993 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:26 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Threes (49-50) scottduncan2 Dear Friends, Continuing: CSCD Aparepi cattaaro puggalaa â€" tamo tamaparaayano, tamo jotiparaayano, joti tamaparaayano, joti jotiparaayano. Walshe DN 33.1.11(49) 'Four more persons: (a) living in darkness and bound for darkness (tamo tamaparaayana), (b) living in darkness and bound for the light (tamo jotiparaayana), (c) living in the light and bound for darkness, (d) living in the light and bound for the light. Olds [4.49] Four additional individuals: In darkness journeying into darkness, in darkness journeying into light, in the light journeying into darkness, in the light journeying into the light. RD's [4.49] Other four individuals, to wit, (1) living in darkness and bound for the dark; (2) living in darkness and bound for the light; (3) living in the light and bound for the darkness; (4) living in the light and bound for the light. **olds: [ 4.49 ] Apare'pi cattaaro puggalaa: Tamo tama-paraayano, tamo joti-paraayano, joti tama-paraayano, joti joti-paraayano. ***rd: 4.49See above xxix. CSCD Aparepi cattaaro puggalaa â€" sama.namacalo, sama.napadumo, sama.napu.n.dariiko, sama.nesu sama.nasukhumaalo. Walshe DN 33.1.11(50) 'Four more persons: (a) the unshakeable ascetic (sama.nam-acalo), (b) the "blue-lotus" ascetic, (c) the "white-lotus" ascetic, (d) the subtly-perfect ascetic (sama.na-sukhumaalo). *1087 Olds [4.50] Four additional individuals: The unshakable shaman, the lotus-shaman, the white-lotus shaman, the shaman that is the sweet flowering of shamanship. RD's [4.50] Other four individuals, to wit, the unshaken recluse, the blue lotus recluse, the white lotus recluse, the exquisite recluse. *walshe: 1087 These curious designations are supposed to refer to the Stream-Winner, Once-Returner, Non-Returner, and Arahant respectively. **olds: [4.50] Apare'pi cattaaro puggalaa: Sama.na-m-acalo, sama.na-padumo, sama.na-pu.n.dariiko, sama.nesu sama.na-sukhumaalo. Walshe footnotes: "These curious designations are supposed to refer to the Stream-Winner, Once-Returner, Non-Returner, and Arahant respectively." RD comments similarly. Paduma (nt.) [cp. Epic Sk. padma, not in RV.] the lotus Nelumbium speciosum. It is usually mentioned in two varieties, viz. ratta- and seta-, i. e. red and white lotus. The latter seems to be the more prominent variety; but paduma also includes the 3 other colours (blue, yellow, pink?), since it frequently has the designation of pa~ncava.n.na-paduma (the 5 colours however are nowhere specified). It is further classified as satapatta and sahassapatta-p., viz. lotus with 100 & with 1,000 leaves. Compared with other species at J V.37, where 7 kinds are enumd as uppala (blue, red & white), paduma (red & white), kumuda (white) and kallahaara. -- (1) the lotus or lotus flower M III.93; S I.138, 204; A I.145; II.86 sq.; III.26, 239. -- (2) N. of a purgatory (-niraya) S I.151--152. Pu.n.dariika (nt.) [Non--Aryan (?). Cp. Vedic pu.n.dariika] the white lotus D I.75=A III.26 (in sequence uppala, paduuma, p.); D II.4 (Sikhii pu.n.dariikassa muule abhisambuddho); M III.93; S I.138, 204=J III.309; A I.145 (uppala paduma p.); II.86 sq. (sama.na- adj.); Sn 547; J V.45, 215 (-ttac' angii=ratta--paduma--patta--va.n.nasariiraa). N. of a hell S I.152. Sukhumaala (adj.) [cp. Sk. su-kumaara] tender, delicate, refined, delicately nurtured A I.145; II.86 sq.; III.130; Vin I.15, 179; II.180; beautifully young, graceful J I.397; sama.na- -- a soft, graceful Sama.na A II.87. (mo: here if this is su+kumara this could be "sweet-prince"; but I hear: sukha + maalaa; sweet flowering; which I hear as "culmination".) ***rd: 4.50Interpreted as those in the Four Paths. CSCD Ime kho, aavuso, tena bhagavataa jaanataa passataa arahataa sammaasambuddhena cattaaro dhammaa sammadakkhaataa; tattha sabbeheva sa'ngaayitabba.m…pe… atthaaya hitaaya sukhaaya devamanussaana.m. Walshe These are the [sets of] four things which were perfectly proclaimed by the Lord ... So we should all recite them together ... for the benefit, welfare and happiness of devas and humans. Olds These then, friends, are those four-part Dhammas consummately taught by the Bhagava, that #1-Consummately-Awakened-One, an Arahant who knows and sees. In this situation, let us all gather to gether as one, undivided, so that this Best of Lives will stay on track and stand for a long time as a benefit to the many, as a pleasure for the many, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit and pleasure of gods and man. RD's These fourfold doctrines, friends, have been perfectly set forth by the Exalted One who knows, who sees. Hereon there should be a chanting by all in concord, not a wrangling, that thus this holy life may persist and be long maintained. That may be for the welfare and happiness of many folk, for compassion on the world, for the good, the welfare, the happiness of devas and of men. prior: #95323 Threes (46-48) (cy: #95414, #95515, #95590) Sincerely, Scott, connie, Nina. #95994 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:44 am Subject: The History of Bhaavanaa As Formal Theravada Meditation Goes Back To The Buddha abhidhammika Dear Robert Ep, Scott, Jon, Sarah, Howard, James, TG, colette, Herman, Robert K, Nina, Alex, and all How are you? Here is another Suttam in support of Robert Ep's understanding of bhaavanaa as gradual on-going process of development. In this Suttam, the Buddha used a graphical depiction of a dragon getting bigger and bigger and stronger and stronger as an analogy for a practitioner of formal Theravada bhaavanaa developing in the sense of repeatedly doing developmental activities by first basing oneself on, and establishing oneself in, Theravada moral principles (Siila). 182. Saavatthinidaanam. "Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, himavantam pabbataraajaanam nissaaya naagaa kaayam va.d.dhenti, balam gaahenti; te tattha kaayam va.d.dhetvaa balam gaahetvaa kusobbhe otaranti, kusobbhe otaritvaa mahaasobbhe otaranti, mahaasobbhe otaritvaa kunnadiyo otaranti, kunnadiyo otaritvaa mahaanadiyo otaranti, mahaanadiyo otaritvaa mahaasamuddasaagaram otaranti; te tattha mahantattam vepullattam aapajjanti kaayena; evameva kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu siilam nissaaya siile pati.t.thaaya satta bojjhange bhaavento satta bojjhange bahuliikaronto mahantattam vepullattam paapu.naati dhammesu. Kathañca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu siilam nissaaya siile pati.t.thaaya satta bojjhange bhaavento satta bojjhange bahuliikaronto mahantattam vepullattam paapu.naati dhammesuuti? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu satisambojjhangam bhaaveti vivekanissitam viraaganissitam nirodhanissitam vossaggapari.naamim; dhammavicayasambojjhangam bhaaveti …pe… viiriyasambojjhangam bhaaveti …pe… piitisambojjhangam bhaaveti …pe… passaddhisambojjhangam bhaaveti …pe… samaadhisambojjhangam bhaaveti …pe… upekkhaasambojjhangam bhaaveti vivekanissitam viraaganissitam nirodhanissitam vossaggapari.naamim. Evam kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu siilam nissaaya siile pati.t.thaaya satta bojjhange bhaavento satta bojjhange bahuliikaronto mahantattam vepullattam paapu.naati dhammesuu"ti. Section 182, Himavantasuttam, Pabbatavaggo, Bojjhangasamyuttam, Mahaavaggo, Samyuttanikaayo. Here, we can find the Buddha reinforcing the expression `bhaavento' (developing) with the expression `bahuliikaronto' (repeatedly doing developmental activities). And, before repeatedly doing these developmental activities, the practitioner first firmly bases oneself on, and establishes oneself in, Theravada moral principles (Siila). Those above evidences are telling us that the Buddha was explicitly instructing us to undertake formal Theravada bhaavanaa. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #95995 From: "connie" Date: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:12 pm Subject: RFC - Dispeller 205; object nichiconn L: Nina promised that when she get back we can go throught all conditions, starting from aramana-paccaya, which is not so easy for me. I am always thinking about object like something proximate. That citta cannot experience object which is past. But I think I am wrong, what do you think Connie? dear lukas, all, looking forward to the conditions study. i tend to confuse the different methods: Dep.Orig., 24Conditions & Truths. meanwhile, two quotes. if the second is too long, just remember: "in this object condition there is no state that cannot be an object of consciousness and mental factors." peace, connie CONDITIONS, Chapter 2 When visible object is experienced through the mind-door it has fallen away. Also seeing can be object. Citta can through the mind-door experience another citta such as seeing which has just fallen away. It must have fallen away since only one citta at a time can arise. There may be, for example, a citta with understanding (paññå) which realizes seeing as a conditioned nåma which is impermanent. GUIDE TO CONDITIONAL RELATIONS: 2. OBJECT CONDITION (AARAMMA.NA PACCAYA) DEFINITION: The condition where a conditioning state, as object, relates by causing other states, the conditioned states, to arise is known as object condition. ANALOGY: The six kinds of objects, the conditioning states, are the sources of enjoyment of consciousness and mental factors, the conditioned states of object condition. These objects can be compared to a pleasant garden which has many kinds of fruit trees, flowering plants, ponds, streams, roads and seats. The consciousness and mental factors can be compared to the people who are freely moving about in the garden and enjoying themselves. And just as the garden is a source of delight to the people in the garden, so the six kinds of objects are sources of delight to consciousness and mental factors. ANOTHER ANALOGY: Again, just as a weak or old man has to depend on a rope or staff to get up or walk, so consciousness and mental factors have to depend on the six kinds of objects for their existence. And just as the weak or old man gathers strength from the rope or staff, so consciousness and mental factors gather strength from the six kinds of objects. THE CONDITIONING STATES: {*} These are the six kinds of objects: (1) visible object, (2) sound, (3) odour, (4) taste, (5) tangible object consisting of hardness, heat and motion, (6) cognizable object consisting of the remaining twenty-one states of materiality, eighty-nine consciousnesses, fifty-two mental factors, Nibbaana and concept. Of these latter objects, materiality, consciousness and mental factors are either of the past, present or future but Nibbaana and concept are time-freed. So, in this object condition there is no state that cannot be an object of consciousness and mental factors. This object condition pervades the teaching in the Pali Canon. The details about it will be found in the Analytical Exposition of the Conditions and Investigation Chapter that are dealt with later. THE CONDITIONED STATES: These are consciousness and mental factors. Consciousness takes and knows objects and cannot arise without them. Even during sleep, the life-continuum takes the object which was taken in the dying process of the previous existence and is one of three kinds: (1) past action (kamma), (2) sign of action (kamma nimitta) and (3) sign of destiny (gati-nimitta). But in the non-percipient plane of existence and during the period of Attainment of Extinction (nirodha-samaapatti) no objects are taken because consciousness and mental factors are absent. It must be specially noted that objects are known only by consciousness and the associated mental factors that always arise together with it. So consciousness and mental factors, which are mentality, are conditioned states of object condition. Materiality is never a conditioned state of object condition because it cannot take and know objects. The awareness of objects by consciousness and mental factors concerns living beings {1}. It is not the concern of inanimate things such as trees {2}. For they cannot take and know objects, do not possess the states by which they could be called life and are not consciousness and mental factors. They are simply material states. That is why it is expounded in Dhammasangani that 'All matter (form) is that which is void of taking objects (ideas).' {3} {*} Refer to the conditioning and conditioned states of object condition in AEC [Chart of the Analytical Exposition of the Conditions (Chart 2)]. {1} Actually there is no life but it is so-called when kamma-produced heat, life-continuum, physical and psychic life are present. {2} The inclination of trees towards the sun, the blossom-folding of flowers during sunlight or moonlight, the folding of leaves after sunset as if asleep and other similar occurrences are due to temperature. {3} Sabba.m ruupa.m anaaramma.na.m. #95996 From: "connie" Date: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:10 pm Subject: Subject: The History of Bhaavanaa As Formal Theravada Meditation Goes Back To The Buddha nichiconn Dear Robert Ep, Scott, Jon, Sarah, Howard, James, TG, colette, Herman, Robert K, Nina, Alex, and all Section 182, Himavantasuttam, Pabbatavaggo, Bojjhangasamyuttam, Mahaavaggo, Samyuttanikaayo begins, in KS V, BkII I. The Mountain (p51): (i) Himaalaya Supported, monks, by Himaalya, lord of mountains, snakes grow a body and get strength. [...] Just so, monks, a monk supported by virtue, fixed in virtue, cultivating the seven limbs of wisdom and making much of them, wins to greatness and growth in conditions. {Comy refers to Kosala-Samyutta; S i 68-102; KS i 93ff}. [...] A bit later the chapter talks about how "Just as this {cf Expos 204} body, monks, is supported by material food and stands in dependence on it, stands not without it, - even so, monks," the hindrances and seven limbs of wisdom; respectively fed in the manner of attention, 'unsystematic' and 'yoniso'. Then there is a sutta about how "when the seven limbs of wisdom are thus cultivated, these seven fruits, these seven advantages may be looked for", where the description 'thus' begins: <<[Text V, 65 II, I, iii] - Virtue {see Vibh 227; VibhA 310} -- Monks, whatsoever monks are possessed of virtue, possessed of concentration, possessed of insight, of release, of release by knowledge and insight - the very sight of such brings much profit, I declare. The very hearing about such monks brings much profit, I declare. To visit such, to sit beside them, to remember such, to follow such in giving up the world brings great profit, I declare. What is the cause of that? On hearing the teaching of such monks one dwells aloof in two forms of aloofness, to wit: of body and of mind. Such an one, so dwelling aloof, remembers that Norm-teaching and turns it over in his mind. When a monk, so dwelling aloof, remembers and turns over in his mind the teaching of the Norm, it is then that the limb of wisdom which is mindfulness is established {aaraddho} in that monk. When he cultivates the limb of wisdom which is mindfulness, then it is that the monk's culture comes to perfection. Thus he, dwelling mindful, with full recognition {pa~n~naaya} investigates and applies insight {pavicarati} to that teaching of the Norm and comes to close scrutiny of it. Now, monks, at such time as a monk, dwelling thus mindful, with full recognition investigates and applies insight to that teaching of the Norm, then it is that the limb of wisdom which is Norm-investigation is established in that monk. Is is when he cultivates the limb of wisdom which is Norm-investigation that, as he comes to close scrutiny of it, by his culture of it, it comes to perfection. As with full recognition he investigates and applies insight to that Norm-teaching, then unshaken energy {asalliinam} is established in him. >> Then, with "Practice" (iv): [...] It is just like the wardrobe of a raajah or great nobleman, full of garments of various hues. [...] in whichsoever of these seven limbs of wisdom I desire to abide [...] owing to this or that cause. the chapter also covers another 'method' is also discussed: (vi) Ku.n.dalii {One who wears ear-rings} [...] Four stations of mindfulness, Ku.n.daliya, if cultivated and made much of, complete the seven limbs of wisdom. [...] The three virtuous habits {A i 49: kaaya-, vacii- mano-caritaani}, Ku.n.daliya ... complete the four stations of mindfulness. [...] Control of the sense faculties, Ku.n.daliya, if cultivated and made much of, complete the three virtuous habits. [...] peace, connie #95997 From: "connie" Date: Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:53 pm Subject: The History of Bhaavanaa As Formal Theravada Meditation Goes Back To The Buddha nichiconn Hi again All, re: KS "Just as this {cf Expos 204} body, monks, is supported by material food and stands in dependence on it, stands not without it, - even so, monks," Expositor 204 is in Part VI - Moral Consciousness of the Immaterial World, so not exactly the body or wardrobe of a peasant, [202:]< ... But this culture of 'the immaterial' is conducive to distaste for matter>. Also, from my own mundane point of view, i like one of the chapter's last remarks: << For although the people see his faults, to wit, 'his conduct is harsh,' they would not get their livelihood save under this king, who, though unrestrained, harsh in act, speech and thought, is lord of all the quarters of the country. >> But, to get on with the story of the candy man [204]: << Briefly, 'by passing beyond the perceptions of matter' implies the removal of all states of the realm of attenuated matter. 'By the dying out of the perceptions of impact, by inattention to perceptions of indifference,' implies the removal of, and inattention to, all consciousness and mental properties of the sensuous realm. Thus by these three clauses: - transcending the perceptions of matter, the dying out of the ten perceptions of impact, the not attending to the forty-four different perceptions, the Blessed One has spoken the praises of the attainment of the infinity of space. For what reason? For the purpose of rousing the audience to activity and to persuade them, lest some unlearned people should say: 'The Teacher declared, "Get the attainment of the infinity of space." But what is the use, what is the benefit of this?' To prevent them from so speaking, he praised this attainment in such wise. For they, hearing its praises extolled, will reflect thus: 'So calm, they say, is this attainment and so exalted; we will get it.' Then they will endeavour to get it. And he has praised it to them for the purpose of persuasion, like a dealer in molasses [who is called a dealer] in 'visaka.n.taka.' ^1 He, it is said, took in a cart hard molasses, soft molasses, lumps of molasses, treacle, etc., went to the border village and shouted, 'Buy visaka.ntaka, buy visaka.ntaka!' (lit.: poison-thorn). The villagers, hearing him, shut the doors of their houses and made the children run away, saying, 'Poison is cruel; he who eats it dies; a thorn pierces, kills you. Both are cruel; what is the use of them?' Seeing this circumstance, the merchant thought, 'They are unskilled as to names in vogue, these villagers. I will make them buy the toffee by a stratagem.' So he shouted, 'Buy a very sweet thing, buy a very delicious thing; hard molasses, soft molasses, treacle may be got a low price, even for bad farthings, for bad pennies,' etc. Hearing him, the villagers, glad and delighted, came out and bought them, giving him much money. Now here, like the shout of the merchant's 'Buy visaka.n.taka!' is the saying of the Blessed One, 'Produce the attainment of the infinity of space'; like the thought of the villagers: 'Both are cruel; what is the use?' is the thought of the audience: - 'The Blessed One has told us to produce the sphere of the infinity of space. What benefit is there? We do not know its merits.' Then, like the words of the merchant, 'Buy a very sweet thing,' etc., is the Blessed One's showing the benefit, beginning with the transcending of the perceptions of matter. As the villagers giving much money and taking the molasses, so is the thought: by hearing of the benefit, those whose hearts have been persuaded will make a great endeavour to get this attainment. Thus the Blessed One has spoken for the purpose of producing endeavour and so as to persuade. {p273 n1: A name for a species of sugar. Abhidhaanapadiipakaa. Cf. our 'bull's eyes,' or the Lancashire equivalent 'humbugs.' -Ed.} >> peace, connie #95998 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:15 pm Subject: Re: Sangiiti Sutta Threes (49-50) scottduncan2 Dear Friends, Sorry, I posted the wrong section in my haste. When things slow down a bit, I'll get it right. Sincerely, Scott. #95999 From: "colette" Date: Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:50 pm Subject: NO, it is an EXACT failure. ksheri3 Hi Suan, No, there is no way possible for the dharma to b e transient as long as you have issued the dictum. first of all * "commentaries" are done "AFTER THE FACT". * commentaries are done via "INTERPRETATIONS". > "Is it an established fact that the "Traditional Theravada" includes > the commentaries? colette: is it an established fact that drug addicts have identicle behavior? Is it an established fact that drug dependence include that which meakes a person drunk, such as POWER, such as WEALTH, ETC.? <...> I'sure you'll help me out here: "The Bhavanga-citta is a resultant (vipaka), and thus karmically neutral, mind of homogeneous nature which takes its particular chazrcter at rebirth and to which the mind neutrally reverts in the absence of conginitvie objects. As a neutral 'buffer state' betwen moments of cognition, it serves, along with the object itself and attention, as one of the immediate conditions upon which specific cognitions arise, this also resolving the problem of heterogeneous succession. It is not, however, a contuous stream since it is constantly inbterrupted by these cognitions, nor is it simultantiuous with the. Neither is the Bhavanga-Citta in its classical formulation connected to the acutre funtions of karma or klesa, since it is concerned primanrily with continuity and perception. Karmic continu8t9ies i8n the Theravada, rath, in Collin's Words (1982:248), haveno 'underlying connecting thread, save the overall force of karema which creates them," transmitted through the unbroken succession of either mental moments,..." What I'm getting at is that you speak of something that cannot exist in the Theravadan practice and doctrine. You state that the "commentaries" must exist since you place upon an alter to be venerated WOW! WAY OUT THERE! Now I have to question your interpetation as being similar to Dr. Timmothy Leary's interpretation of the Tibetan Book of the Dead having exact similarities to the "psychedelic experience". <...> WHY IS IT I CAN CLEARLY HEAR JOHN LENNON SINGLING "INSTANT KARMA" when we all know John Lenno was murdered in 1980? ----------------------------------------------------- I am honored members of the Golden Dawn, et al, for having your trust in me to seek out the problems within your "processes". I am more than horoned to have the kindness and genoristy of the Buddhist community to extend to extend their trust and beliefs into my hands. <...> colette Or is this in any dispute? Obviously the Tipitaka > itself is the body of Theravadin teachings, so I am wondering what > the status of the commentaries really is." > > Suan replies: > > Robert, as you rightly stated, the Pali Tipitaka itself is the main > body of Theravadin teachings. <...> =========== * Howard's signature blocks: == A change in anything is a change in everything (Anonymous) == Entrances to holiness are everywhere. The possibility of ascent is all the time, even at unlikely times and through unlikely places. There is no place without the Presence. (From Mishkan T'filah, the new Reform prayerbook) == He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none - such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. (From the Uraga Sutta) == Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains "going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it" and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible. (From the Avarana Sutta) == Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream. (From the Diamond Sutra) == When knowing what is to be known, he doesn't construe an [object as] known. He doesn't construe an unknown. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-known. He doesn't construe a knower. (The Buddha, speaking of himself in the Kalakarama Sutta) == See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance. (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) == Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. (From the Sacitta Sutta) == "Rouse yourself! Sit up! What good is there in sleeping? For those afflicted by disease (suffering), struck by the arrow (craving), what sleep is there? "Rouse yourself! Sit up! Resolutely train yourself to attain peace. Do not let the king of death, seeing you are careless, lead you astray and dominate you. "Go beyond this clinging, to which devas and men are attached, and (the pleasures) they seek. Do not waste your opportunity. When the opportunity has passed they sorrow when consigned to Niraya-hell. "Negligence is a taint, and so is the (greater) negligence growing from it. By earnestness and understanding withdraw the arrow (of sensual passions)." (From the Utthana Sutta) ==