#96200 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:57 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Survey, Ch 36, no 10 kenhowardau Hi Robert K, Thanks for sharing your conversation. (I wonder if that was the Starbucks we went to after a World Fellowship of Buddhists meeting last year.) Yes, it is crazy to be attached to stories, isn't it? But there are so many conditions for craziness! :-) Ken H PS: I especially liked Sukin's post too. Let's hope it teaches all us DSG'ers to listen more carefully to each other. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Ken > > Thanks for reminding me of this quote (great post by Sukin today > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/96162 > also i thought) > I was with Ivan and kevin last night in starbucks on Sukumvit road > discussing points about pratice and theory. > Ivan was wondering how anyone can think there is a self doing > anything, when every moment new cittas are arising at the doors. It can > be seen that it is all changing so fast even just at the thinking level > before direct insight. > > Of course the reason is that ignorance and wrong view cloud and > pervert perception so thta one is like a madman who really believes in > non-existant things. > A crazy man will see demons following him , in the same way ignorance > takes color and sound and touch and turns these elements into real >\ #96201 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:18 am Subject: [dsg] Survey, Ch 36, no 14 nilovg Dear friends, Q. : You just said that happiness and sadness are only a matter of thinking. I do not understand this yet. Who likes to think of something which makes him unhappy? Nobody likes to be unhappy. In what way does a person think so that he is unhappy? S. : It is not so that a person thinks in order to be unhappy. There are conditions for the arising of unhappiness due to the thinking. Q. : Does this mean that there are conditions for sadness when someone, for example, has to part with his possessions or when he has lost a horse-bet? He returns home and thinks of the horse-bet he has lost. Then the horse-bet may be a condition for his unhappiness. S. : If he would not think about the horse which has lost the race could there be sorrow about it? Q. : No, there would not. S. : When there is seeing or hearing and after that thinking, paññå should know that thinking is only a type of nåma which thinks about different subjects and then falls away. When someone thinks about a horse, there is no horse at that moment. There is remembrance of an idea or conception of a horse and this causes the arising of unhappiness. Thus, unhappiness arises because a person thinks about something he does not like, and happiness arises because he thinks about something he likes. The Dhamma we study, the whole Tipitaka, together with the Commentaries and Subcommentaries, have been taught so that paññå can arise and understand the realities which are naturally appearing at this moment, just as they are. People may have listened and studied much, they may have had many Dhamma discussions and pondered over the Dhamma very often, all their learning should aim at accumulating conditions, as sankhårakkhandha (the khandha of activities or formations, cetasikas other than feeling and saññå, including all wholesome qualities), for the arising of right awareness. Then sati can be aware, study and consider the characteristics of the realities appearing at this moment through the sense-doors and the mind-door. People may have heard this time and again, but they need to be reminded to investigate the dhammas which are real, one at a time. Sati should be aware so that there can be right understanding of dhammas, otherwise they cannot be realized as anattå. Day in day out there are only nåma and rúpa, arising and falling away each moment. When they have fallen away, there is nothing left of them, they do not last even for a moment. ******* Nina #96202 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:19 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (49-50) nilovg Dear friends, 50: sutta: RD's [3.50] Three species of concentration:3.50--that of mental application followed by sustained thought, that of sustained thought without mental application, that of concentration without either. (Tayo samaadhii: savitakkasavicaaro samaadhi, avitakkavicaaramatto samaadhi, avitakkaavicaaro samaadhi.) ---------- N: The Co explains that the jhaanacitta of the first stage of jhaana is accompanied by applied thought and sustained thought. N: They arise together at the same time. The translation ‘followed by’ is not correct. At the first stage of jhaana these two jhaanafactors are still needed in order to concentrate on the meditation subject. As to the second kind of samaadhi, this is the second stage of jhaana where vitakka, applied thinking, has been abandoned and vicaara, sustained thought is still needed. The Co. mentions that this regards the fivefold system of jhaana. Some people can abandon both vitakka and vicaara at the second stage of jhaana, and for them there is the fourfold system. As to the third kind of samaadhi, these are the higher stages of jhaana without vitakka and vicaara. These stages are more refined, more calm. N: There are five jhaanafactors in all. Quote from Survey (Development of Samatha, Part IV): (end quote). Thus we see how difficult it is to abandon specific jhaanafactors in order to reach higher stages of jhaana. Co: Samaadhiisu pa.thamajjhaanasamaadhi savitakkasavicaaro. Pa~ncakanayena dutiyajjhaanasamaadhi avitakkavicaaramatto. Seso avitakkaavicaaro. ******* Nina. #96203 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:20 am Subject: Questions Lukas III, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Questions Lukas III, no 2. L. Q. 5) Does right thinking leads to right understanding? -------- N: They go together. --------- Q L 6) What if there is a lot of akusala, can there be still right understanding? -------- Kh S: Understanding can understand anything. N: When lobha and the other kinds of akusala are not known they can never be eradicated. Kh S: Then there is avijjaa again. There should be understanding of realities from the very beginning. Hearing, considering and knowing the difference between intellectual understanding and direct awareness and understanding. Otherwise one may take intellectual understanding for pa~n~naa that is direct understanding. This kind of pa~n~naa can eradicate the idea of self. It is sacca ~naa.na (N: firm understanding of the truth that can lead to kicca ~naa.na, right awareness and understanding and this leads again to kata ~naa.na, the direct realization of the truth.) Sacca ~naa.na: this is the understanding that each reality that arises is conditioned, like now. It has arisen and after it has arisen it is gone completely. It depends on the strength of pa~n~naa whether it is keen enough to understand that. We do not have to use names in order to differentiate intellectual understanding and direct understanding. -------------- Q L 8) What if we fight on account of Dhamma, if we don't lead proper life, if we are involved in pleasant feelings, can there be still pa~n~na? --------- Kh S: Then it seems that pa~n~naa cannot understand pleasant feeling. Pa~n~naa can understand anything. But this depends on conditions, on the strength of pa~n~naa. --------- Q L 9) What if there is akusala and there is no understanding? -------- N: I would say that there is more avijjaa. And it passes. Kh S: There will be more and more akusala. I think that he can answer this by himself, each question. The answer is there all the time. --------- Q L10) What if we understand Dhamma on intelectual level, does it lead to right understanding in the future? ----------- Kh S: The answer is there, implied in the question. ------------ L Q11) I still take it all for Self. ----------- Kh S: He knows the answer (laughter). ----------- Q L 12) What about forgetfullness? I always rely on it that there be less forgetfulness when I start to hear Dhamma. -------- Kh S: There are cetasikas performing their functions, not self. ------------- Q L 13) Is it good to be with forgetfullness? I have no other choice. -------- Kh S: The answer is there. N: Conditions. Kh S: No self, anattaa. N: People ask: can one not do anything? Kh S: understanding. Who is doing anything? Understanding is a reality, it understands. -------- Q L 14) If there is a lot of dosa in our life, is there any chance to develop more understanding? ---------- N: When one listens to the Dhamma. Dosa is not our dosa. Ann: Dosa can be known. --------- Q L 15) What's with unplesant feelings? It hurts. -------- Kh S: That is true. --------- Q L 16) What if we are involved in pleasant feelings. Should we first stop enjoying them to develop right understanding? ----------- Kh S: O.K. let us do that. (laughter). He will answer correctly: I can’t do it. N: We do not stop enjoying ourselves, it is better to know it. Kh S: One asks how, instead of understanding little by little. N: Understanding grows very slowly. Sarah: there is not a recipe that one could use, then there is an idea of self behind it. Kh S: Each reality has its own conditions. Sacca ~naa.na is conditioned. We do not mind not trying to do anything. Anything can happen. Thinking can arise, but when it is the right time awareness can arise and pa~n~naa can understand reality. That is how pa~n~naa can be accumulated. We do not have to do anything at all. *********** (End questions Lukas) #96204 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Request for Comment - 1st Vibh, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m nilovg Dear Lukas. Connie quoted a good text for you. In addition, there is another meaning of ruupa that is grasped at: namely, the ruupas of the body produced by kamma. See Dsg. § 653, 654. They are the senses, femininity, masculinity and vitality. Nina. Op 24-feb-2009, om 7:08 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > 1)"There is material quality that is grasped(by craving and false > view) (Atthi ruupa.m upaadinna.m)" > > L: What does upaadinna.m means? > Does it refers to rupa which is perceive by citta accompanied by > ditthi and lobha? > > --- > > 2)"There is material quality that is not grasped, is the object of the > attachments. (atthi ruupa.m anupaadinnupaadaaniya.m)" > > L: What does it mean that is not grasped and then it is the object of > attachements? #96205 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 25-feb-2009, om 4:37 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > 1.What would be the reasons for rupa contacting more than one atita > bhavanga? > > 2. What would be the reasons for the sense-process getting interrupted > after the votthapana-citta? > > 3. What would be the reasons for bhavangaupaccheda not arising after > bhavanga-calana? > > I'm guessing that all this has to do with different strengths of > vipaka, which would influence how long/short is the sense-door > process. ---------- N: From your quote I see that you do not have my last edition 1997, to be viewed at Zolag web. I prefer to avoid rupa contacting atita bhavanga. The reason that processes are interrupted: the rupa has arisen and impinges on one of the senses, but then more than one moment of bhavangacitta has passed, and in that case the rupa does not survive until the process is completed, since it can only last seventeen moments of citta. Thus, it all has to do with the moment the ruupa has arisen and impinges on the relevant sense-door. Nina. #96206 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey, Ch 36, no 11. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, The compliment should go to Kh Sujin, it is her text. Thanks. Nina. Op 25-feb-2009, om 5:40 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > To me, this talk is lovely, and you have given a very nice rendition > of how panna may perceive realties with a sense of peace and freedom. #96207 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:13 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "65. He made over his fortune to his wife and children and left his home with only a single ducat (kahaapana) sewn into the hem of his garment. He stopped for one month on the sea coast in expectation of a ship, and meanwhile, by his skill in trading he made a thousand during the month by buying goods here and selling them there in lawful enterprise. 66. Eventually he came to the Great Monastery [(Mahaavihaara) at Anuraadhapura], and there he asked for the going forth into homelessness. When he was being conducted to the chapter house (simaa) for the going forth ceremony, the purse containing the thousand pieces dropped out from under his belt. When asked, 'What is that?', he replied, 'It is a thousand ducats, venerable sirs'. They told him, 'Lay follower, it is not possible to distribute them after the going forth. Distribute them now'. Then he said, 'Let none who have come to the scene of Visaaka's going forth depart empty handed', and opening [the purse] he strewed them over the chapter house yard, after which he received the going forth. and the full admission." Path of Purity. "He made over his property to his family and, with only a coin wrapped in the hem of his garment, left his home and lived for a month on the sea-shore waiting for a boat. Through his skill in trade he bought goods at that place and, selling them elsewhere, made by lawful trade during that one month a thousand [coins]. In due course he reached the Mahaavihaara and asked for ordination. Being led to the ordination-hall to be ordained, he let fall the bundle of thousand coins from inside his waist-band to the ground. 'What is this?' 'A thousand coins, sir.' 'Lay-brother, you cannot use them once you are ordained. You had better turn them to use now/' When this was said he replied, 'Let those who come to the ordination of Visaakha not go empty handed,' untied the bundle, scattered the money on a stand in the ordination-hall, was initiated and then fully ordained." So attano bhogakkhandha.m puttadaarassa niyyaadetvaa dussante baddhena ekakahaapaṇeneva gharaa nikkhamitvaa samuddatiire naava.m udikkhamaano ekamaasa.m vasi. So vohaarakusalataaya imasmi.m .thaane bha.n.da.m ki.nitvaa asukasmi.m vikki.nanto dhammikaaya va.nijjaaya tenevantaramaasena sahassa.m abhisa.mhari. Anupubbena mahaavihaara.m aagantvaa pabbajja.m yaaci. So pabbaajanatthaaya siima.m niito ta.m sahassatthavika.m ova.t.tikantarena bhuumiya.m paatesi. 'Kimeta'nti ca vutte 'kahaapa.nasahassa.m, bhante 'ti vatvaa 'upaasaka, pabbajitakaalato pa.t.thaaya na sakkaa vicaaretu.m, idaaneveta.m vicaarehii 'ti vutte 'visaakhassa pabbajja.t.thaanamaagataa maa rittahatthaa gami.msuu 'ti mu~ncitvaa siimaamaa.lake vippakiritvaa pabbajitvaa upasampanno. Sincerely, Scott. #96208 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:17 am Subject: Audio discussion with KS sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We've uploaded the edited discussions from KS's 80th birthday in Bangkok. These and other discussions can be heard and downloaded here: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Scroll down past the long back-up of the entire archives of DSG. The set just finished has been added onto the end of the first set in the audio and is the series for 13th January: >Kaeng Krajaan and Bangkok, January 2007 (Ajarn Sujin's 80th birthday)< 13 January (Bangkok): (1), (2), (3), (4), (5). We'll look forward to any comments/questions/disagreements/extracts quoted. It starts with some points of Han's which I help him raise and ends with the controversial points about meditation which Vince raises, some of which I quoted recently on the list. Metta, Sarah (& Jonothan) ================ #96209 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:02 am Subject: Does This Come from K Sujin? Re: Response to Robert E. 3 abhidhammika Dear Sukin, Jon, Ken H, Sarah, Nina and KS Folks How are you? Sukin wrote: "It was as Ken has pointed out, a reference to what is done in the name of practice by most Buddhists today, at home and in meditation retreats and which amounts to being nothing more than rite and ritual." Suan replies: Thank you, Sukin, for your answer. Now, please kindly clarify and specify the type of meditation regarded by you as nothing more than rite and ritual being practiced by most Buddhists today at home and in meditation retreats. For example, are you referring to meditation retreats in Thailand or in the US or in Australia or in India? Can you name them as meditation retreats are usually organised by the followers of famous monks and lay instructors? To give you a clue about the names of meditation retreats such as those originated in Myanmar, there are Mahaasii meditation retreats, Sayagyi S N Goenka's Vipassanaa meditation retreats and so on. Sukin wrote: "If right understanding were to arise while meditating, this would be due to past accumulated right understanding, including of the pariyatti level, in other words it would arise in spite of the activity and not as a result of it." Suan asks: In the above passage, shall we rephrase the clause `while meditating' as `while performing rite and ritual' or `while doing the wrong meditation' in light of your reply? And, shall we rephrase `right understanding' as `right view (sammaadi.t.thi)'? Now, Sukin, please pay attention to my next questions and answer them carefully. Did you state that right view can arise while doing the wrong meditation? And did you state that this right view was due to right view accumulated in the past life? And, did you state that this practitioner of wrong meditation might also have paraiyatti level right view? And, did you differentiate between past-life-influenced right view and pariyatti level right view? Thanking you in advance. Best wishes and good luck! Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #96210 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. truth_aerator Hello Robert, Jon and all, >--- "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > Since one cannot make panna come about, or even arrange to hear the > correct sutta, one had better hope that the right conditions come > about and leave it at that. Otherwise, one could spend lifetimes > watching tv commercials and not getting much done. > > Best, > Robert E. > > = = = = = = = = = = = = What you are describing sounds like apathy & fatalism. This isn't Buddha's teaching. Effort must be done. with metta, Alex #96211 From: "connie" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:23 am Subject: Re: Request for Comment - 1st Vibh, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m nichiconn Dear Lukas, see Nina's #92215 for aasavas (aka: intoxicants, taints, fluxes, etc) Anusaya is the latent or dormant tendency while aasava is presently active. Is there anything that can not be the object of clinging or grasping? peace, connie #96212 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:42 am Subject: Re: Request for Comment - 1st Vibh, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m szmicio Dear Connie > see Nina's #92215 for aasavas (aka: intoxicants, taints, fluxes, etc) > Anusaya is the latent or dormant tendency while aasava is presently active. > Is there anything that can not be the object of clinging or >grasping? L: Yes, nibbana. I always have problems with searching old posts. This search engine on DSG isn't good. I type there something like #92215 and usually dont get any resonable answer. How do you deal with it? My best wishes Lukas #96213 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for Comment - 1st Vibh, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 25-feb-2009, om 19:42 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > I always have problems with searching old posts. This search engine on > DSG isn't good. I type there something like #92215 and usually dont > get any resonable answer. How do you deal with it? ------ N: Revisit Sangiitisutta and Co, the Threes, sutta 20, then you will also see the meaning of saasavas, with intoxicants. : 20. sutta: Three intoxicants, to wit, the poisons of sensuality, future life and ignorance. Tayo aasavaa - kaamaasavo, bhavaasavo, avijjaasavo. The Co states that the aasavas have been fermenting for a long time (cirapaarivaasi). The Co refers to the Anguttara Nikaaya V, 113: “ No ultimate point of ignorance is apparent, bhikkhus, so that one may say, ‘once there was no ignorance and it has since come to be’.” The same is said of the clinging to becoming, the wrong view about becoming. The Co states that the aasavas are flowing when visible object is seen through the eyesense, sound through the earsense, and so on. The Co explains that in the texts there are different classifications of the aasavas. At some places they are classified as twofold: the aasavas of the present and the future. The Atthasaalinii (I, The Summary, 369): As threefold: as the aasavas of sensuality, becoming and ignorance, as we find here in the Sangiitisutta. In the Abhidhamma they are classified as fourfold, where the aasava of wrong view is classified together with the other three. Or as fivefold: leading to hell, to animal birth, to becoming as a ghost, to human birth, to birth in the deva planes. So long as the aasavas have not been eradicated there are conditions for rebirth. Aasavas can be classified as six when seen as to be abandoned in six ways, and here the Co refers to A III, 387: by restraint (of the six doors), by use (for the monk: wisely using the requisites), by endurance (adhivaasanaa, patience with regard to our living conditions, such as enduring cold, heat, etc.), avoidance, dispelling, developing (the factors leading to enlightenment, mindfulness, investigation of Dhamma, etc.). The Co. states that in addition there is a seventh way according to M. 2 (Discourse on all the cankers): they are to be abandoned by insight (dassana). The Co then returns to the threefold classification. The intoxicant of sense desire is attachment to the five strands of sense pleasure. The intoxicant of becoming is eternity belief, or it is clinging to rebirth. As to the intoxicant of ignorance, this is not knowing the truth of dukkha, etc. Thus, not understanding the four noble Truths. ----------- The subco explains that kusala kamma and akusala kamma are saasava, with aasava. This means: they can be objects of the aasavas. The aasavas do not arise together with kusala citta but kusala dhamma can be the object of the aasavas when there is clinging to kusala or clinging to an idea of “my kusala”. In the Dhgs 1108, in the translation of U Kyaw Khine, we read under saasavas: “What are the dhammaa which are objects of aasavas?”. Then are mentioned kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma and indeterminate dhamma of the three planes of citta (of the sense-sphere, of the planes of ruupajhaana and aruupajhaana), included in the five khandhas. Dhgs 1109 states that only the nine lokuttara dhammas (nibbaana and the eight lokuttara cittas that experience it) are not objects of aasavas. ------- Remark: The beginning of the aasavas cannot be discerned, as we read, and this points to the fact that they are deeply rooted and have been accumulated for countless times. They are ‘flowing from unguarded sensedoors”. But they can be eliminated by the guarding of the doorways, that is, by mindfulness and understanding of whatever appears through one of the six doorways. ******* #96214 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:56 am Subject: Re: Request for Comment - 1st Vibh, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m szmicio Dear Connie Vibh: "There is material quality that is not grasped, is the object of the attachments. (atthi ruupa.m anupaadinnupaadaaniya.m)" L: upaadinna - grasped. Can you explain this word? ruupa is upaadaaniya(object of attachments) but isn't upaadinna. I think i need to discuss it more. Because it's still not clear enought to me. Best wishes Lukas #96215 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:57 am Subject: Lukas other questions. nilovg Dear Lukas, Some of the answers you can find yourself as you study on, read on. It is not possible to know all at once, we have to take our time. Texts about with intoxicants you will also find in Dhammasangani, p. 271. Do you have that? As to one of your other q., citta is one of the factors that can produce rupas of the body, and while it does so the rupa arises at the same time as citta. This you will find in my forthcoming book on rupas. I cannot keep up with all your questions, but I hope Sangiiti co will help. Nina. #96216 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:24 am Subject: Re: Lukas other questions. szmicio Dear Nina, Well, for now I will slow down with questions. There is Dhamasangani availible on-line(hard to read). I'll check this page you gave me. Best wishes Lukas P.s Those Ajahn answers you transcribe was very helpful. They cleared my doubts. Also thanks to Sarah and Jon for new recordings. #96217 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Audio discussion with KS nilovg Dear Sarah, anumodana, thank you. I am just copying them. Nina. Op 25-feb-2009, om 14:17 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > We've uploaded the edited discussions from KS's 80th birthday in > Bangkok. #96218 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for Comment - 1st Vibh, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m nilovg Dear Lukas, think of the meaning I gave you: rupa not produced by kamma but by one of the other factiors (citta, temperature, nutrition) this is 'not grasped' but is still object of attachment. Rupa produced by kamma is 'grasped'. Nina. Op 25-feb-2009, om 19:56 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Vibh: "There is material quality that is not grasped, is the object of > the attachments. (atthi ruupa.m anupaadinnupaadaaniya.m)" > > L: upaadinna - grasped. Can you explain this word? > > ruupa is upaadaaniya(object of attachments) but isn't upaadinna. I > think i need to discuss it more. Because it's still not clear enought > to me. #96219 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:37 pm Subject: Lukas q. upaadi.n.na, upaadaaniya: nilovg Dear Lukas, Dhsg 655: ruupa that is upaadi.n.na: grasped at: this is just ruupaa produced by kamma (the senses, etc.). It is another expression for: kammaja ruupa. upaadaaniya: favorable to grasping: ruupa that is object of clinging. Therefore the following 656 is: ruupa not grasped at, not produced by kamma, but it can be object of clinging. Important to differentiate upaadi.n.na and upaadaaniya. Nina. #96220 From: "connie" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:16 pm Subject: RFC - nichiconn Dear Lukas, If you already have the message number, drop it in the GO box, not the SEARCH one. Is that it? About Conditions - CMA viii $27: All conditions are included in the conditions of object, decisive support, kamma, and presence. Then it mentions Ledi Sayadaw's explantion in the Guide portion, so you might find something useful in: dharmaweb.org/index.php/The_Patthanuddesa_Dipani:_The_Buddhist_Philosophy_of_Rel\ ations peace, connie #96221 From: "charles_a_dacosta" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:21 pm Subject: Re: does buddhism accept the concept of Hell and Heaven? charles_a_da... Hi Raghunath Awachar > I would like to know what Buddhism says about life after death. What > happens after death? Does one go to hell or heaven? What is exact > meaning of rebirth? If there is no God,how are there devatas? who are > they? Your questions seek very relative answers. Instead of "What Buddhism says ..." you would have to focus on a particular school of Buddhist thought. Each could have their own answer to your questions. CharlesD #96222 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:39 pm Subject: Re: Lukas q. upaadi.n.na, upaadaaniya: szmicio Dear Nina So now it's clear. I thought about it in a little diffrent way. Vibh:"There is material quality that is grasped(by craving and false view) (Atthi ruupa.m upaadinna.m)" Why there is said that is grasped by craving and false view? Best wishes Lukas > Dhsg 655: ruupa that is upaadi.n.na: grasped at: this is just ruupaa > produced by kamma (the senses, etc.). It is another expression for: > kammaja ruupa. > upaadaaniya: favorable to grasping: ruupa that is object of clinging. > Therefore the following 656 is: ruupa not grasped at, not produced by > kamma, but it can be object of clinging. > Important to differentiate upaadi.n.na and upaadaaniya. #96223 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:42 pm Subject: Re: RFC - szmicio Dear Connie > If you already have the message number, drop it in the GO box, not the SEARCH one. Is that it? L: Yeah. > About Conditions - > CMA viii $27: All conditions are included in the conditions of object, decisive support, kamma, and presence. > Then it mentions Ledi Sayadaw's explantion in the Guide portion, so you might find something useful in: > dharmaweb.org/index.php/The_Patthanuddesa_Dipani:_The_Buddhist_Philoso phy_of_Relations L: Well, this link doesn't work. Best wishes Lukas #96224 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Survey, Ch 36, no 11. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep, > The compliment should go to Kh Sujin, it is her text. Thanks. > Nina. > Op 25-feb-2009, om 5:40 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > > > To me, this talk is lovely, and you have given a very nice rendition > > of how panna may perceive realties with a sense of peace and freedom. Thank you. Very nice! Best, Rob Ep ======================== #96225 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:39 pm Subject: Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Back to #93517, after checking the text: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > >Jhana is definately helpful for any and all insight, and in mn43 (or > > 44) is one of 5 conditions for Arhatship. > > .... > > S: I'd have to see the reference to consider what is meant. > > ... ... A:> "Assisted by five factors, right view has awareness-release as its > fruit & reward, and discernment-release as its fruit & reward. There is > the case where right view is assisted by virtue, assisted by learning, > assisted by discussion, assisted by tranquility, assisted by insight. > Assisted by these five factors, right view has awareness-release as its > fruit & reward, and discernment-release as its fruit & reward." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html .... S: This is a repeat of the same passage I replied to before, with one or two extra comments: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/91017 >S: From the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation (of the same sutta): "Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another (S: parato ghosa) and wise attention (S: yoniso manasikara)."* [* "MA: 'The voice of another' (parato ghosa) is the teaching of beneficial Dhamma. These two conditions are necessary for disciples to arrive at the right view of insight and the right view of the supramundane path. But paccekabuddhas arrive at their enlightenment and fully enlightened Buddhas at omniscience soley in dependence on wise attention without "the voice of another."] ... S: In other words, for right view of insight and right view of the surpramundane path, no mention of jhana so far.... [Are we concerned with developing understanding and insight now or of the attainment of arahatship now, I ask...] S: continuing from the sutta: "Friend, by how many factors is right view assisted when it has deliverance of mind for its fruit, deliverance of mind for its fruit (S: cetovimutti phaala)and benefit, when it has deliverance by wisdom (S: pa~n~naavimutti phaala) for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for its fruit and benefit?" "Friend, right view is assisted by five factors when it has deliverance of mind for it fruit..........wisdom for its fruit and benefit. Here, friend, right view is assisted by virtue [S:siilaanuggahitaa], learning[sutaanuggahitaa], discussion [saakacchaanuggahitaa), serenity [samathaanuggahitaa], and insight [vipassanaanuggahitaa].....*" ...... [**"MA: Right view here is the right view pertaining to the path of arahantship. 'Deliverance of mind' and 'deliverance by wisdom' both refer to the fruit of arahantship; see n.83.*** When one fulfils these five factors, the path of arahantship arises and yields its fruit.] [[***n.83 "MA: In this passage "mind" and "wisdom" signify, respectively, the concentration and wisdom associated with the fruit of arahantship. Concentration is called "deliverance of mind" (cetovimutti) because it is liberated from lust; wisdom is called "deliverance by wisdom" (pa~n~navimutti) because it is liberated from ignorance. The former is normally the result of serenity, the latter the result of insight. But when they are coupled and described as taintless (anaasava), they jointly result from the destruction of the taints by the supramundane path of arahantship.]] .... S: So here, the text is referring to the lokuttara(supramundane) cittas and associated factors of the arahat. The concentration is equivalent in intensity to jhana (the degree depending on whether and which jhana was the basis for attainment). I don't read it as saying that mundane jhana "is one of the 5 conditions for Arahatship", though it may well be that most (if not all) arahats had attained mundane jhanas. In any case, do we even understand what samatha or calm really is now and how it accompanies all moments of kusala in a day without *trying* to be calm? Metta, Sarah ======== #96226 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Alex, and Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > > Since one cannot make panna come about, or even arrange to hear the > > correct sutta, one had better hope that the right conditions come > > about and leave it at that. Otherwise, one could spend lifetimes > > watching tv commercials and not getting much done. > > > > Best, > > Robert E. > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > What you are describing sounds like apathy & fatalism. This isn't > Buddha's teaching. Effort must be done. Well, to be fair it is my rather strong characterization, and may not properly represent the actual philosophy. Still, I agree that the idea that any intentional action to promote the path is Wrong View, flies in the face of Right Effort. One doesn't need to assert the existence of a self in order to have intention and action. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #96227 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for your reply. > N: From your quote I see that you do not have my last edition 1997, > to be viewed at Zolag web. pt: Apologies, I've donwnloaded the new version, it is good. > N: The reason that processes are interrupted: the rupa has arisen and > impinges on one of the senses, but then more than one moment of > bhavangacitta has passed, and in that case the rupa does not survive > until the process is completed, since it can only last seventeen > moments of citta. > Thus, it all has to do with the moment the ruupa has arisen and > impinges on the relevant sense-door. pt: One thing I still don't see – when rupa has impinged on the sense-door, why doesn't atita-bhavanga become bhavanga-calana and the sense-door process starts? I mean, since there are bhavanga cittas flowing, I'm guessing there's no other sense-door or mind-door process going on at the time, so mind is not "occupied" with anything else, so, why can't this sense-door process start? In other words, the rupa is there (impinging on the sense-door), so why does the process become stuck on atita-bhavanga instead of going forward as usual? Also, thank you for posting that bit about jhanas. Also, in a message to Lukas you've said that you have a forthcoming book on rupas. Is that a different one to the book on rupas that's currently available on Zolag? Thanks pt #96228 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lukas q. upaadi.n.na, upaadaaniya: nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 26-feb-2009, om 4:39 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Vibh:"There is material quality that is grasped(by craving and false > view) (Atthi ruupa.m upaadinna.m)" > > Why there is said that is grasped by craving and false view? ------- N: These are additional notes by the translator. I used Dhammasangani PTS and also Dhammasangani transl by Khine, which is a better translation. Khine (653) gives kammaborn, for upaadi.n.na, where the English of Pts (652) has: grasped at. The translation may create confusion. You asked about indriya: an indriya is aleader, but each one in his own field. Some indriyas are ruupa, some are naama. The five sense- bases are indriyas that are ruupa. Quote from Conditions: Nina. #96229 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 26-feb-2009, om 10:07 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > One thing I still don't see – when rupa has impinged on the > sense-door, why doesn't atita-bhavanga become bhavanga-calana and the > sense-door process starts? I mean, since there are bhavanga cittas > flowing, I'm guessing there's no other sense-door or mind-door process > going on at the time, so mind is not "occupied" with anything else, > so, why can't this sense-door process start? In other words, the rupa > is there (impinging on the sense-door), so why does the process become > stuck on atita-bhavanga instead of going forward as usual? -------- N: The rupa impinges on a sense-door, but ruupa at its arising moment is still weak, it cannot be object (or base) at its arising moment, but only during the moments of its presence. Atita bhavanga is just a passing moment and then the bhavanga calana 'vibrates', it is affected by the new object, but it does not experience it yet. The Expositor uses the simile of someone asleep under a mango tree (II, P. 359). Subconscious is a translation I like to avoid, but you see here that the bhavangacitta is as it were asleep and the awakening is not immediately, but takes a few moments, however short these are. When the rupa that impinges on a sense-door has done so long before the awakening, the rupa does not last long enough to be present during a sense-door process, it has to fall away after its duration of seventeen moments of citta has expired. One rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. -------- > > pt. Also, thank you for posting that bit about jhanas. > > Also, in a message to Lukas you've said that you have a forthcoming > book on rupas. Is that a different one to the book on rupas that's > currently available on Zolag? ------ N: It has been corrected. If you like to have a hardcover, just give me your postal address off line. Nina. #96230 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:42 am Subject: [dsg] Survey, Ch 36, no 15. nilovg Dear friends, We should know that our enjoyment or sorrow which arose in the past have fallen away, that they are completely gone. Now there is just the present moment and it is only at this moment that we can study realities and understand them as not self, not a being or a person. Some people say that they do not wish to meet a particular person again in a next life. If they would have right understanding of the Dhamma, they would not have such thoughts. In a next life there will not be this or that person one meets at the present, nor will there be “I”. After death the existence of someone as this particular person in this life has definitely come to an end. Only in this life there is this person and in a next life he is another person. Therefore, one should not worry nor have anxiety about meeting a particular person again. This is impossible, since the existence as this or that person does not continue on to the next life. If someone has irritation or annoyance about another person he should understand that in reality there is not that person. There are only dhammas, citta, cetasika and rúpa, which arise and then fall away. Life, in the ultimate sense, lasts only as long as one single moment of citta. If we reflect time and again on death it can support the development of satipatthåna. If we consider that we may die this afternoon or tomorrow, it can be a supporting condition for sati to be aware of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa which appear. For those who have not realized the noble Truths, thus, for those who are not ariyans, it is not certain whether, after the dying-consciousness has fallen away, the rebirth-consciousness will arise in a happy plane or in an unhappy plane of existence. It is not certain whether there will be again an opportunity to listen to the Dhamma and to develop satipatthåna. ******** Nina. #96231 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visudhimagga Chapter VIII [Mindfulness of death] nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 25-feb-2009, om 7:07 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > L: Khun Sujin mention momentary death in SPD. Where can i find > something about momentary death? ------ N: In the commentraies, such as: Dispeller of Delusion, Classification of the Truths, § 101. I deal with this in my Survey posting tomorrow. Nina. #96232 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visudhimagga Chapter VIII [Mindfulness of death] nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 25-feb-2009, om 7:07 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > OTHER RECOLLECTIONS AS MEDITATION SUBJECTS (Anussati-kamma.t.thaana- > nidessa)" > > L: This chapter is called "other recollections as meditation > subjects". And then section on mindfulness of death begins. > Then there are also "mindfulness occupied with the body" and > "mindfulness of breathing". That 3 sections are classified separately > as 3 diffrent meditation subject or the whole chapter VIII is > classified as one object? ------ N: As different meditation subjects. ------- > > There is 40 meditation objects, can you introduce it to me in brief? --------- N: Read Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, the Ch on Samatha. -------- > Does this 40 meditation subjects leads to vipassana?? --------- N: They can be a means of kusala citta with calm and also kusala citta can be object of mindfulness in vipassanaa. There is no rule about what should be the object of vipassanaa, thus the term 'leading to' I would avoid. Those who have skills for jhaana can develop them and then use jhaana as a base for vipassanaa. This depends on the individual's inclination. ------- > L:If samatha bhaavaana is developed, is there ti-hetuka or dvi-hetuka > kusala citta? ------ N: No bhaavanaa without pa~n~naa, thus the citta must be accompanied by three hetus. -------- > L:Pa~n~na of samatha knows what is kusala and what is akusala, and > also > knows conditions for developmnet more kusala in the future. But when > this kind of pa~n~na arises, is it ti-hetuka or dvi-hetuka citta that > arises with it? ------ N: Tihetuka. But this pa~n~naa does not realize realities as non-self. --------- > > L: When pa~n~na of samatha arises is it pa~n~na of eightfold path? ------ N: See above. Pa~n~naa of the eightfold Path understands realities as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. ------- > > L:Can there be samatha bhaavaana without pa~n~na of samatha and also > without pa~n~na of vipassana? ------ N: There must be pa~n~naa of the level of samatha. ******* Nina. #96233 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: cornerstone sarahprocter... Hi Connie, --- On Tue, 17/2/09, connie wrote: >S:p.s. Again, I wonder about Abhvt and Abhvk???? >a couple possibilities here - p.xvi, Summary and Expo: ...Suma"ngala wrote a somewhat longer commentary to the Abhidhammaavataara, the Abhidhammatthavikaa sinii, to which he refers in the Abhidhammatthavibha aviii{-.tiikaa} . ... S: Thx, that was a good lead. So the Abhvt actually refers to the Abhidhammatthavihaavinii, the comy to Abhidhammatthasangaha, as transl here into Summary & Expo by the good Dr Wijeratne and Gethin. Abhvk refers to the commentary to the Abhidhammaavataara, a 5th century text by Buddhadatta. Obviously these still exist in Pali, but I don't think transl. into English as yet. Metta, Sarah =========== #96234 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:10 am Subject: Re: Audio discussion with KS scottduncan2 Dear Sarah and Jon, Regarding: S: "We've uploaded the edited discussions from KS's 80th birthday in Bangkok..." Scott: Thank you very much. I like to listen to these. Sincerely, Scott. #96235 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:33 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "67. When he had acquired five years' seniority and had become familiar with the two Codes, he celebrated the Pavaara.naa at the end of the Rains, took a meditation subject that suited him, and set out to wander, living for four months in each monastery and doing the duties on the basis of equality with the residents. While he was wandering in this way: The elder halted in a wood To scan the tenor of his way; He thundered forth this roundelay Proclaiming that he found it good: 'So from your full admission day Till in this place you paused and stood No stumbling mars your bhikkhuhood; Be thankful for such grace, I say'." Path of Purity. "After five years' standing he was acquainted with the two Maatikas; and after residence during the rains took up the subject of meditation suitable to himself and, spending four months at each monastery where he led an agreeable life, he went on tour. Thus touring, 'The Thera, biding in the wood, Visaakha, roars his triumph-song, Bent on his own perfection's growth, This was the burden of his thoughts, Thus far my quest has been achieved! Thus far my feet have hither come! Here where no further stumbling lies - Ah friend! 'tis thou hast won the day." So pa~ncavasso hutvaa dvemaatikaa pagu.naa katvaa pavaaretvaa attano sappaaya.m kamma.t.thaana.m gahetvaa ekekasmi.m vihaare cattaaro maase katvaa samappavattavaasa.m vasamaano cari. Eva.m caramaano â€" Vanantare .thito thero, visaakho gajjamaanako; Attano gu.namesanto, imamattha.m abhaasatha. 'Yaavataa upasampanno, yaavataa idha aagato; Etthantare khalita.m natthi, aho laabhaa te maarisaa' ti. Sincerely, Scott. #96236 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:37 am Subject: Computer Monitor Death upasaka_howard Hi, all - ??? I'm writing from my son's library, as my monitor has totally died, making the use of my computer impossible. It may be a week yet before the problem can be taken care of, and meanwhile I will only occasionally be able to get online. If you are missing replies from me, please know that I'm not ignoring you! ;-) With metta, Howard #96237 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:03 pm Subject: Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thank you, I think I'm starting to understand this. > N:One rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. pt: Is "one rupa" here the same as saying "one kalapa"? Also, if for example we have a sound impinging on the ear-door, and a visual object impinging on the eye-door at the same time, what is it that determines which sense-door will be activated first out of those two? > N: It has been corrected. If you like to have a hardcover, just give > me your postal address off line. pt: Thank you for your kind offer, but there's no need – I have to travel a lot so I can only take electronic books with me on a hard-drive, so I'll have to wait until electronic version is updated. Thanks pt #96238 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: RFC - Dispeller 205; object sarahprocter... Dear Connie & Lukas, >>L: Can you say something about dhammaarammana? >>Can panna arise with citta which experience a concept? How many kinds of pa~n~na there is? ..... >c: Here is my understanding: When we say dhammaarammana, we know it impinges on the heart-basis, ..... CMA 111, 16# "Dhammaarammana pana pasaada-sukhumaruupa-citta-cetasika-nibbaana-pa~n~nattivasena chadhaa sangayhanti." "But mental object is sixfold: sensitive matter, subtle matter, consciousness, mental factors, Nibbaana, and concepts." Qu: Are you sure we can say all these *impinge* on the heart-base? Visible object *impinges* on the eye-base, but do concepts impinge on the heart-base or would it not be more accurate to say that the cittas which experience concepts just arise at the heart-base? Can we refer to a tree *impinging* when it is merely thought of? .... C:>...so we rule out the physical objects of the pasada rupas or first five sense bases. Basically, dhammaarammana is just 'thought object' - as opposed to physical sense object - so it includes cittas, cetasikas, all concepts, Nibbaana, the subtle rupas and, i believe, the pasada rupas. ... S: Yes, see above. ... C:> It's tricky because we also think about the impressions of those other five-fold objects but the heart-basis does not have the same kind of "sense ability" as the pasada rupas so the impressions of the physical objects at those other physical bases can't quite appear at the heart-basis but appear at the mind-door instead. ... S: Exactly, we can't talk about visible object impinging or impacting the heart-base, because it has fallen away. It's characteristic, its nimitta appears through the mind-door to the cittas arising at the heart-base. [Of course, besides the mind-door processes, dhammaaramanna are also experienced by the patisandhi,bhavanga & cuti cittas.] ... C: >I think we have to study the two kinds of thought processes more... and yes, conditions, too. Maybe we should start with a review of the CMA? ... S: My old falling-apart copy will be on its way to L. as soon as Jon or I get to a P.O.!! .... C:> For pa~n~na or amoha, I think it must be able to know anything; definitely it would have to understand the difference between concept and ultimate reality. ... S: Again, are you sure about this one? Lukas asks whether panna arises with a citta which experiences a concept. When it is panna arising with the development of samatha, nothing is known about the difference between concept and ultimate reality. Lots of panna before the Buddha's teaching, no knowledge about paramattha dhammas at all. ... C;> I don't know how many ways it is classified but I'm sure we could start with saying it's all one kind by being of the nature of correct knowledge and then break it down from there considering different degrees or strengths and other aspects of it. ... S: I think we can differentiate betwen the two main kinds of panna - a)in samatha development, b)in vipassana development. These are the two kinds of bhavana. Then we can look at degrees, strengths and so on as you suggest. Great discussions and points Lukas raises.... I was about to bring the ayatanas into the first part as well, but will leave off there. Thx as usual for helping me reflect further. Metta, Sarah ======= #96239 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:45 am Subject: Re: RFC - Dispeller 205; object szmicio Dear Sarah, Connie > C;> I don't know how many ways it is classified but I'm sure we could start with saying it's all one kind by being of the nature of correct knowledge and then break it down from there considering different degrees or strengths and other aspects of it. > ... > S: I think we can differentiate betwen the two main kinds of panna - a)in samatha development, b)in vipassana development. These are the two kinds of bhavana. Then we can look at degrees, strengths and so on as you suggest. L: Could you give me an example of dvi-hetuka-kusala-citta. It's not samatha development then, but still it's kusala. I was wondering about it. So there can be dana with pa~n~na of vipassana, dana with pa~n~na of samtha. And dana without pa~n~na. What Buddha says about dvi-hetuka-citta?? Is it still devlopment? I always thought that there is at least pa~n~na of samatha with each kusala citta. And classified it as dvi-hetuka, because there wasn't pa~n~na of vipassana. I know Nina answer it but i need to hear more on diffrent levels of pa~n~na. Best wishes Lukas #96240 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Lukas q. upaadi.n.na, upaadaaniya: szmicio Dear Nina > N: These are additional notes by the translator. I used Dhammasangani > PTS and also Dhammasangani transl by Khine, which is a better > translation. Khine (653) gives kammaborn, for upaadi.n.na, where the > English of Pts (652) has: grasped at. > The translation may create confusion. L: Yes I find this term upaadi.n.na, now it's clear. Dhammasangani is very helpful. Thanks Lukas #96241 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:13 am Subject: Re: Visudhimagga Chapter VIII [Mindfulness of death] szmicio Dear Connie, Sarah, Nina and friends Chapter VIII continues: "As intended here it is of two kinds, that is to say, timely death and untimely death. Herein timely death comes about with the exhaustion of merit or with the exhaustion of a life span or with both. Untimely death comes about through kamma that interrupts[other,life-producing kamma]. Herein, death throught exhaustion of merit is a term for the kind of death that comes about owing to the result of [former] rebirth- producing kamma's having finished ripening although favourable conditions for prolonging the continuity of a life span may be still present. Death through exhaustion of a life span is a term for the kind of death that comes about owing to the exhaustion of the normal life span of men of today, which measures only a century owing to want of such excellence in destiny [as deities have] or in time [as there is at the beginning of an aeon] or in nutriment [as the Uttarakurus and so have on]. Untimely death is a term for death of those whose continuity is interrupted by kamma capable of causing them to fall(caavana) from their place at the very moment, as in the case Dusi-Maara(see M.i.337),Kalaaburaajaa (see Jaa.iii,39),etc., or for the death of those whose [life's] continuity is interrupted by assaults with weapons, etc., due to previous kamma. [230] All these are included under the interruption of the life faculty of the kinds already stated. So mindfulness of death is the remembering of death,in other words, of the interruption of the life faculty." =================================================================== ---------- L: There are 3 kinds of death: 1)As to exhaustion of merit "death throught exhaustion of merit is a term for the kind of death that comes about owing to the result of [former] rebirth- producing kamma's having finished ripening although favourable conditions for prolonging the continuity of a life span may be still present." L: I need some short comments on it. rebirth-producing kamma means kamma which arises shortly before cuti-citta? "although favourable conditions for prolonging the continuity of life span may be still present" - what does it mean? 2)AS to exhaustion of a life span "Death through exhaustion of a life span is a term for the kind of death that comes about owing to the exhaustion of the normal life span of men of today, which measures only a century owing to want of such excellence in destiny [as deities have] or in time [as there is at the beginning of an aeon] or in nutriment [as the Uttarakurus and so have on]." L: Does it mean that death comes because of old age or starvation? 3)At to kamma capable of interrupt present life span. L: Where can I find anything about kammas decribed here? My best wishes Lukas #96242 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 27-feb-2009, om 5:03 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > > N:One rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. > > pt: Is "one rupa" here the same as saying "one kalapa"? --------- Ruupas always arise in groups of at least eight ruupas. The kalapa arises and falls away, and it does not last longer than seventeen moments of citta. -------- > > pt: Also, if for example we have a sound impinging on the ear-door, > and a > visual object impinging on the eye-door at the same time, what is it > that determines which sense-door will be activated first out of > those two? --------- N: When we say impinging it means that a process of cittas is about to begin which will experience that object. Thus, only one rupa at a time impinges on the relevant sense-base. That rupa arises in a kalapa or group, but the other rupas of that group do not impinge. When a rupa such as colour impinges on the eyebase, both colour and also the base fall away after having lasted seventeen moments of citta. It is an amazing thing that the rupa that will be object and base come together so that there are conditions for the arising of the sense-cognitions, one at a time. -------- Nina. #96243 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visudhimagga Chapter VIII [Mindfulness of death] nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 25-feb-2009, om 7:07 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > "Herein, death (mara.na) is the interruption of life faculty included > within [the limits of] a single becoming(existence)." > > L: so death is not just concept, is also a reality. What kind of life > faculty is mentioned there? is it jivitindriya-cetasika? ------ N: There is naama jivitindriya and ruupa jivitindriya. The cetasika jiivitindriya arises with each citta. BUt here the reference is ti ruupa jivitindriya: this is a ruupa produced by kamma and it arises with all the groups of ruupa of the body produced by kamma. Ruupas outside, also ruupas of plants, do not have this ruupa. At death kamma does not produce the life faculty anymore. Nina. #96244 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for Comment - 1st Vibh, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 25-feb-2009, om 5:57 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > 3)"There is material quality that is generated by consiousness. (Atthi > ruupa.m cittasamu.t.thaana.m)" > > L: so citta - consiousness, samu.t.thaana - cause. So it means that > "ruupas can have their cause(or origination) in citta." > This kind of ruupa is called cittaja-ruupa. Which kinds of ruupas are > cittaja-ruupas? ------ N: The ruupas that are bodily intimation and speech intimation, the vi~n~natti ruupas. Also other groups of ruupas of the body that arise and fall away and that are not obvious. When we are angry and show this in our face, we can notice that citta produces ruupas. Nina. #96245 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:17 am Subject: [dsg] Survey, Ch 36, no 16. nilovg Dear friends, At death a person parts with everything in this life, it is all over. There is nothing left, not even remembrance. When a person is born into this life he does not remember who he was, where he lived and what he did in his former life. His existence as a particular person in a former life has come to an end. Evenso in this life, everything comes to an end. A person performs kusala kamma and akusala kamma, he may have conceit about his race, family, possessions, honour and fame, all this comes to an end. There will be no ties left with all the things in this life. All that we find so important in this life, all that we are holding on to and take for self, will come to an end. If people realize the true characteristics of paramattha dhammas which arise because of their own conditions, they will eliminate the inclination to take them for beings, people or self. Even remembrance which arises and falls away is only a type of nåma. If sati is aware of nama and rúpa and paññå understands them clearly, one can let go of the wrong view of a self or person who exists in this life. Then one can realizethe characteristic of “momentary death” (khanika marana) of realities, their passing away at each moment. There are three kinds of death: momentary death, khanika marana, which is the arising and falling away of all conditioned dhammas, conventional death, sammuti marana, which is dying at the end of a lifespan, final death, samuccheda marana, which is parinibbåna, the final passing away of the arahat who does not have to be reborn. ********* (the end) Nina. #96246 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:35 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "68. On his way to Cittalapabbata he came to a road fork and stood wondering which turn to take. Then a deity living in a rock held out a hand pointing out the road for him. "69. He came to the Cittalapabbata Monastery. After he had stayed there for four months he lay down thinking, 'In the morning I depart'. Then a deity living in a ma.nila tree at the end of the walk sat down on a step of the stair and burst into tears. The elder asked, 'Who is that?' - 'It is I, Ma.niliyaa, venerable sir.' - 'What are you weeping for?' - 'Because you are going away.' - 'What good does my living here do you?' - 'Venerable sir, as long as you live here non-human beings treat each other kindly. Now when you are gone, they will start quarrels and loose talk.' The elder said, 'If my living here makes you live at peace, that is good', and so he stayed there another four months. Then he again thought of leaving, but the deity wept as before. And so the elder lived on there, and it was there that he attained nibbaana. This is how a bhikkhu who abides in lovingkindness is dear to non-human beings." Path of Purity. "Going to Cittalapabbata Monastery, he came to the parting of the ways and stood thinking: Is this the way, or is that? The fairy residing on the mountain stretched his hand and pointed out the way to him. He went to Cittalapabbata Monastery and, having spent four months there, lay down thinking to depart early in the morning. The fairy residing in a rose-apple tree at the head of the terrace sat on a plank at the stairway and wept. The Elder asked, 'Who is it?' 'Sir, I am of the rose-apple tree.' 'Why weep you?' 'Because of your going away. 'What advantage is there to you by my living here?' 'Sir, while you live here the non-human beings learn to love one another. When you are gone, they will quarrel and make lewd talk.' 'If my living here makes your life pleasant, it is good,' - so saying the Elder lived there another four months. Again he conceived the desire to go. The fairy wept again as before. In this way the Elder lived there; and even there he passed utterly away. A monk living thus in love is dear to non-human beings." So cittalapabbatavihaara.m gacchanto dvedhaa patha.m patvaa 'aya.m nu kho maggo udaahu aya 'nti cintayanto a.t.thaasi. Athassa pabbate adhivatthaa devataa hattha.m pasaaretvÄ 'esa maggo 'ti vatvaa dasseti. So cittalapabbatavihaara.m gantvaa tattha cattaaro maase vasitvaa paccuuse gamissaamiiti cintetvaa nipajji. Ca.nkamasiise ma.nilarukkhe adhivatthaa devataa sopaanaphalake nisiiditvaa parodi. Thero 'ko eso 'ti aaha. Aha.m, bhante, ma.niliyaati. Kissa rodasiiti? Tumhaaka.m gamana.m pa.ticcaati. Mayi idha vasante tumhaaka.m ko gu.noti? Tumhesu, bhante, idha vasantesu amanussaa a~n~nama~n~na.m metta.m pa.tilabhanti, te daani tumhesu gatesu kalaha.m karissanti, du.t.thullampi kathayissantiiti. Thero 'sace mayi idha vasante tumhaaka.m phaasuvihaaro hoti, sundara 'nti vatvaa a~n~nepi cattaaro maase tattheva vasitvaa puna tatheva gamanacitta.m uppaadesi. Devataapi puna tatheva parodi. Etenevupaayena thero tattheva vasitvaa tattheva parinibbaayiiti eva.m mettaavihaarii bhikkhu amanussaana.m piyo hoti. Sincerely, Scott. #96247 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: RFC - Dispeller 205; object sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (& Connie), --- On Fri, 27/2/09, szmicio wrote: >L: Could you give me an example of dvi-hetuka-kusala- citta. It's not samatha development then, but still it's kusala. I was wondering about it. So there can be dana with pa~n~na of vipassana, dana with pa~n~na of samtha. And dana without pa~n~na. ... S: I'm not sure what you mean by dana with panna. Alobha arises with all sobhana (beautiful) cittas, but when the object is beings, such as when we offer a gift to someone, there cannot be panna of vipassana, because there is no paramattha dhamma as object. As you say, there can be dana with or without panna however, depending on whether there is any samatha 'development' of understanding, any wise reflection/knowledge at the time. It's also helpful to remember that samatha (calm) arises with all sobhana cittas, but without panna, no development - dvi-hetuka-kusala cittas, as you say. We can see that people and even animals often do good deeds, but without any understanding of kusala and akusala cittas. .... >What Buddha says about dvi-hetuka-citta? ? Is it still devlopment? ... S: No, just kusala cittas, but no development. Some people are very kind by nature, but without any development of understanding, this can change. Likewise, there are many, many, many akusala cittas in a day without ditthi (wrong view) arising. The Buddha always stressed the importance of right understanding and the danger of wrong view. ..... >I always thought that there is at least pa~n~na of samatha with each kusala citta. And classified it as dvi-hetuka, because there wasn't pa~n~na of vipassana. .... S: There is samatha with each kusala citta. This just means each kusala citta is calm, calm from akusala at such moments. It doesn't mean there is any panna arising. So, it's dvi-hetuka when there is no panna of any level arising. .... >I know Nina answer it but i need to hear more on diffrent levels of pa~n~na. .... S: Like now, we're reflecting on the Dhamma and on present realities, so there are moments of wise reflection with panna. There may also be wise reflection on the Buddha's virtues or on death, for example. Such cittas are calm, but it's not the same as panna which accompanies moments of understanding of seeing or visible object for what they are. Connie may also have more to add too - I've really appreciated all her textual and personal responses, esp. while some of us were away earlier this month. It's been a great help to us all. Metta, Sarah ======== #96248 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Wed, 25/2/09, Alex wrote: > Sarah wrote: > > "Perhaps we can say however, that whenever there is an idea of > focussing on a sensation or movement of the abdomen or feeling, for > example, in order to develop satipatthana, it's wrong view. So the > purpose of such practices (for this goal) is wrong from the start. ... >Hi Sarah. The point isn't to be absorbed into the abdomen! ... S: I'm glad to hear it! ... >The point is in seeing the characteristic of anicca ... S: How is the characteristic of anicca seen by any kind of focussing? Of course, if you are referring to the same kind of impermanence as that of the moving mountains, then I appreciate what you are saying. However this isn't the anicca of dhammas (realities) which is understood in the development of satipatthana. In the development of satipatthana, the dhammas, such as the rupas we were discussing before, have to be known first as dhammas, not as mountains or pencils. .... >and the air element becoming inner part of the body and leaving the body (thus showing anatta). So the meditation is about seeing characteristics of anicca, anatta AND all the insights that follow from those two characteristics. ... S: What is it the anatta characteristic of in this case? What reality is known as anatta? Is it a nama or a rupa? How is the experience you describe and the knowledge gained any different from any yoga student's observation of the breath? Metta, Sarah ======= #96249 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:29 am Subject: Does This Come from K Sujin? Re: Response to Robert E. 3 jonoabb Hi Suan > As the Buddha mentioned samatha and vipassanaa in the following > passage among others, the term `meditation' as the equivalent of the > Pali terms `samatha' and `vipassanaa' has basis in the Pali > Tipi.taka. > > 32. "Dve me, bhikkhave, dhammaa vijjaabhaagiyaa. Katame dve? Samatho > ca vipassanaa ca. > > Section 32, Baalavaggo, Dukanipaata Pali, Anguttaranikaayo. > > The expression "Theravada meditation" is used to distinguish > Theravada samatha and vipassanaa from non-Theravada practices. After > all, we are discussing things here in the context of Theravada > Buddhism. OK, thanks for explaining that "meditation" is used by you to refer to bhavana (samatha and vipassana). > Thus, your assertion "the expression (Theravada meditation) itself > has no basis in the texts" is wrong and uninformed. You still have not explained the textual basis for using "meditation" as a translation of the Pali "bhavana". Jon #96250 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:30 am Subject: Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation jonoabb Hi Suan > 374. "Kathañca pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii > viharati? idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu araññagato vaa rukkhamuulagato > vaa suññaagaaragato vaa nisiidati pallankam aabhujitvaa ujum > kaayam pa.nidhaaya parimukham satim upa.t.thapetvaa. so satova > assasati, satova passasati. > > Section 374, Aanaapaanapabbam, Kaayaanupassanaa, > Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam, Mahaavaggo, Diighanikaayo. > > 374. "And, Monks, how does a monk lives as a repeated body–observer > in the body? Here, Monks, the monk goes to the forest or to the root > of the tree or to a quiet building and sits having crossed his legs, > keeping his upper body upright, orienting mindfulness towards > breathing as the meditation object. He inhales mindfully only. He > exhales mindfully only." I'd be interested to know what is the Pali expression translated here as "meditation object" and whether, in the context of this paragraph, the bhavana being referred to is samatha or vipassana. > In the above Pali passage from Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam, the monk > is focussing on the processes of breathing in line with the Buddha's > instructions for the purpose of developing mindfulness. I do not see anything in the nature of an instruction in the Pali passage (only a description). Jon #96251 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:32 am Subject: Re: abhidhamma talks about people and effort. jonoabb Hi Alex > regarding the passivity of development. I've made a number of posts > showing that Buddha has used an active, not passive, sense, in his > speeches to MONKS. Yes, and you gave as an example the text of the samma-paddhana (4 right efforts). I then posted the following: ************************************ > "And what, monks, is right effort? > > [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, > activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the > non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. To my understanding, this refers to, for example, a kusala moment of restraint from performing an unwholesome act. Now that moment of restraint may occur spontaneously, or it may occur only after much pondering or agonising. But it is only the kusala moment or moments that are accompanied by the mental factor of right effort, not any akusala moments that may have preceded it/them. ************************************ I'd be interested to know whether you disagree with any of the above, and why. > > But all language is conventional, so even when the subject matter is > absolute truths, > > So there is no such thing as "absolute vs conventional truth"? > > Thank you for admitting that. Whoa Alex! Please read what I said above, and take a little more time over it ;-)) In summary: - The truths about dhammas that the Buddha taught are absolute truths, since they lead to release from samsara. - Conventional truths, are correct as far as they go, but they are not things the knowledge of which is prerequisite for enlightenment. - Language, however, is always conventional to a degree, even when the subject under discussion is absolute truths. > Buddha wasn't using a hidden lingo (that only Abhidhammikas and ONLY > KS followers could decode) when he said: Develop this and that, Monk! > Don't be heedless! Agreed, no hidden lingo. On the other hand, the matters about which he spoke are, in his words, deep and difficult to understand, so their meaning may not be apparent without careful consideration. > Somewhere I remember reading that Abhidhamma, unlike the suttas, uses > super Absolute truth and without conventional truth. Well there is quite a lot of Abhidhamma being quoted on this list, so you should be able to speak from first-hand knowledge ;-)) Jon #96252 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. jonoabb Hi Robert E > Since one cannot make panna come about, or even arrange to hear the > correct sutta, one had better hope that the right conditions come > about and leave it at that. These are the 2 "extremes" the Buddha spoke about: making panna arise and leaving it entirely to events (you must be familiar with the well-known simile about crossing the stream given by the Buddha: neither by struggling nor by doing nothing). The path taught by the Buddha is neither of these. > Otherwise, one could spend lifetimes > watching tv commercials and not getting much done. Indeed, one *does* spend lifetimes doing just that ;-)) Jon #96253 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:37 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. jonoabb Hi Robert E > > (It has already been agreed in our discussion that both meditation > > and Abhidhamma study, as conventional activities, are activities that > > may either be performed with wrong view or without.) > > I had not realized this, so thanks for mentioning it. It has been > said by others that meditation can *only* lead to akusala arising, > since it is a product of wrong view. I appreciate your saying it is > possible to meditate with right view, even if you don't believe it is > too common. Not quite. I was talking about meditation undertaken for reasons not associated with the development of the path (such as its health benefits). > I am interested in a bit more of a sense of what constitutes a > practice or a non-practice, if you think you may be able to clarify it. It is doing something in the belief that (and for the reason that) the doing of that thing, properly done, constitutes or facilitates the development of understanding. Jon #96254 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. jonoabb Hi Roberty E and Alex > > What you are describing sounds like apathy & fatalism. This isn't > > Buddha's teaching. Effort must be done. > > Well, to be fair it is my rather strong characterization, and may not > properly represent the actual philosophy. Still, I agree that the > idea that any intentional action to promote the path is Wrong View, > flies in the face of Right Effort. One doesn't need to assert the > existence of a self in order to have intention and action. The development of the path as taught by the Buddha is not a matter of doing, or of refraining from doing, any particular intentional action. This does not make the doing of any and all intentional action wrong practice; but it does I think mean that action done in the belief that doing that particular form of action constitutes the development of the path would be wrong practice. Jon #96255 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation sarahprocter... Dear Suan, Thank you also for your interest in my discussion with Rob Ep. --- On Tue, 24/2/09, abhidhammika wrote: >Sarah wrote: "Perhaps we can say however, that whenever there is an idea of focussing on a sensation or movement of the abdomen or feeling, for example, in order to develop satipatthana, it's wrong view. So the purpose of such practices (for this goal) is wrong from the start. ... >Suan replies: Sarah, the Buddha said the following: 374. "Kathañca pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati? idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu araññagato vaa rukkhamuulagato vaa suññaagaaragato vaa nisiidati pallankam aabhujitvaa ujum kaayam pa.nidhaaya parimukham satim upa.t.thapetvaa. so satova assasati, satova passasati. Section 374, Aanaapaanapabbam, Kaayaanupassanaa, Mahaasatipa. t.thaana Suttam, Mahaavaggo, Diighanikaayo. 374. "And, Monks, how does a monk lives as a repeated body–observer in the body? Here, Monks, the monk goes to the forest or to the root of the tree or to a quiet building and sits having crossed his legs, keeping his upper body upright, orienting mindfulness towards breathing as the meditation object. He inhales mindfully only. He exhales mindfully only." In the above Pali passage from Mahaasatipa. t.thaana Suttam, the monk is focussing on the processes of breathing in line with the Buddha's instructions for the purpose of developing mindfulness. .... Sarah: I would phrase the last comment a little differently and suggest the monk is skilled in the development of samatha with breath as object. This is under the section of kaayaanupassi - referring to the direct understanding of the rupas of the body. By understanding the rupas (and/or any other dhammas appearing as elaborated on in other parts of the sutta), the pa~n~naa understands "that there can be nothing apart from the qualities of primary and derived materiality, in a body" as the commentary explains. Apart from such rupas (and other khandhas), "there is seen no body, man, woman or anything else." Later, in the same section, we read from the coomwntaries about how such sati and pa~n~naa are "necessary in all circumstances - everywhere in the state of becoming, in every sluggish and unbalanced state of mind, it is desirable." There is no suggestion in the text that if we are sitting at the computer now or go to make a cup of tea, that it would be better or that we should follow an instruction to "focus on the breath" in order to develop satipatthana. .... >Now, Sarah, I asks. Why is the purpose of this mindfulness meditation wrong if the purpose being developing mindfulness? .... Sarah: If there is an idea of "focussing" on a particular object, i.e. selecting a particular object for concentration of some kind, in order to develop sati of satipatthana, it suggests (to me) that we haven't understood the Buddha's teaching on dhammas arising by conditions and as being anatta, beyond anyone's control. The object of such focus or concentration is a concept, not a reality, such as seeing, visible object or any other element (dhatu). ...... >And, why is the monk's view - of focussing on the processes of breathing in line with the Buddha's instructions in order to develop mindfulness - a wrong view? .... Sarah: Is this the monk's view or your view, Suan? Does the bhikkhu (wrongly) believe that he has to "focus" in such a way to develop satipatthana, or is this what his daily life consists of? The section you quote follows the one about the four satipatthanas. I don't see any mention of focus in it. What is see a lot of mention of is that of understanding and awareness of the rupas of the body, feelings, consciousness, and other dhammas (realities) in addition. Which Pali term are you translating as "focussing" above with regard to developing satipatthana? .... >Now, Sarah, I ask you further. Is the above assertion your personal opinion (attanomati) ? Or does it come from K. Sujin? ... Sarah: Unless I'm quoting or making reference to someone else's comments, I'm offering my own, just as I suggest, you do too:-). As you're so interested in K.Sujin's, I highly recommend you listen to the recorded discussions we've just uploaded, a little at a time and add your own comments (with any quotes) for further discussion of them. I'd be glad to pursue this with you. ... >By the way, it is very unlikely that your assertion has any support from Theravada Pali texts both canonical and commentarial. .... Sarah: Let's look at my "assertion" again. I said: "Perhaps we can say however, that whenever there is an idea of focussing on a sensation or movement of the abdomen or feeling, for example, in order to develop satipatthana, it's wrong view. So the purpose of such practices (for this goal) is wrong from the start." ... Sarah: Let's start with the first part about "focussing on a sensation or movement of the abdomen or feeling....in order to develop satipatthana" . I have never seen anything remotely like this in any ot the Theravada Pali texts (canonical or commentarial). Have you? Again, as I asked Alex, how is such "focussing" any different from that which any yoga or healing-arts student might do? What reality appears now as we write rather than on another occasion of special focus? Again, I appreciate you contributions and challenging questions to us all, Suan:-). Metta, Sarah ====== #96256 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation sarahprocter... Dear Suan & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Later, in the same section, we read from the coomwntaries .... S: commentaries! Not sure where that one came from....Apologies for this and other typos....getting careless as usual around bed-time! Obviously lacking that special focus:-). Sarah ======== #96257 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:48 am Subject: Does This Come from K Sujin? Re: Response to Robert E. 3 abhidhammika Dear Jon, Sukin, Ken H, Sarah, Nina and KS Folks How are you? Jon wrote: "You still have not explained the textual basis for using "meditation" as a translation of the Pali "bhavana"." Suan replies: I think that you did not read carefully my post on this issue. I have already explained the following. _________________________________ "If I recall correctly, it is me to first use the term `development' to force KS folks to accept the development of the Noble Eightfold Path as meditation when I noticed they were objecting to the practice of meditation." ___________________________________ In the above passage, what I did was to put KS folks in double-bind. I wasn't offering meditation as a literal translation of bhaavanaa. Even though KS folks, notably, Sarah, were critical about the practice of meditation without justification, they became more careful with reduced tone when I forced them to accept the development of the Noble Eightfold Path as meditation. On the other hand, the Noble Eightfold Path can be regarded as covering Siila, Samatha and Vipassanaa. Right speech, right action and right livelihood cover siila. Right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration cover samatha while right thinking and right view cover vipassanaa. In this sense, development of samatha and vipassana would be understood as meditation by most readers and writers of Buddhist literature. From that perspective, the Pali passage I gave in the previous post would become nicely the textual basis for meditation, as I duly intended in that post. I wrote the following in that post: ______________________________ As the Buddha mentioned samatha and vipassanaa in the following passage among others, the term `meditation' as the equivalent of the Pali terms `samatha' and `vipassanaa' has basis in the Pali Tipi.taka' 32. "Dve me, bhikkhave, dhammaa vijjaabhaagiyaa. Katame dve? Samatho ca vipassanaa ca. Section 32, Baalavaggo, Dukanipaata Pali, Anguttaranikaayo. _________________________________ Jon, it is worth remembering that I did not offer the term `meditation' as a literal translation of the term `bhaavanaa'. You should also keep in mind that the term `bhaavanaa' is meaningless without its objects: things to develop. Now, things to develop are samatha and vipassanaa. So, I reiterate: Jon, your assertion "the expression (Theravada meditation) itself has no basis in the texts" is wrong and uninformed. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #96258 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and pt) - In a message dated 2/27/2009 5:01:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: N: When we say impinging it means that a process of cittas is about to begin which will experience that object. Thus, only one rupa at a time impinges on the relevant sense-base. That rupa arises in a kalapa or group, but the other rupas of that group do not impinge. ------------------------------------------ Howard: My hypothesis (just mine - no claim of scriptural basis) is that all but one are subliminal, but all arise "on the mental stage." ------------------------------------------ When a rupa such as colour impinges on the eyebase, both colour and also the base fall away after having lasted seventeen moments of citta. It is an amazing thing that the rupa that will be object and base come together so that there are conditions for the arising of the sense-cognitions, one at a time. --------------------------------------- Howard: It *would* be amazing were they independent conditions. :-) ======================== With metta, Howard *(Anonymous) #96259 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:39 am Subject: Does This Come from K Sujin? Re: Response to Robert E. 3 scottduncan2 Dear Suan, If I may, regarding: S: "...You should also keep in mind that the term `bhaavanaa' is meaningless without its objects: things to develop..." Scott: No. Not 'things to develop.' Things *that* develop. Sincerely, Scott. #96260 From: "connie" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:12 am Subject: Re: RFC - Dispeller 205; object nichiconn Dear Sarah, Lukas, Thank you for the corrections/comments here as well as on my waggon remarks to my uncle, Sarah. Lukas, Nina also says more in #93720 on DN 33.1.10(34) Threefold classification of matter: visible and resisting, invisible and resisting, invisible and unresisting. peace, connie #96261 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "...Again, as I asked Alex, how is such 'focussing' any different from that which any yoga or healing-arts student might do? What reality appears now as we write rather than on another occasion of special focus?" Scott: I was thinking about this on the way home today and would be interested in your opinion (unless you think the controversy factor is too high). Given all the obvious confusion about 'meditation', do you think there are even any conditions for jhaana to arise as it did in the Buddha's time? Conventionally, I suppose, I mean are there any legitimate 'jhaana masters' to be found in the world, but I think you get the gist. Sincerely, Scott. #96262 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for your reply, that cleared it up regarding bhavangas. I hope to get into discussing rupa side of the topic as soon as I finish reading your rupas book. One last questions I have about ADL chapter 12: "Question iv: Can bhavanga-citta be accompanied by wisdom?" If the question is asking whether bhavanga-citta can have three roots, one of which is wisdom, then the answer is yes. However, if it is asking whether bhavanga-citta can be known directly through insight with panna, then I'm not sure. Can it be? Can we actually 'see' bhavanga cittas? Thanks pt #96263 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:53 pm Subject: Does This Come from K Sujin? Re: Response to Robert E. 3 jonoabb Hi Suan Thanks for these further comments. > On the other hand, the Noble Eightfold Path can be regarded as > covering Siila, Samatha and Vipassanaa. Are you referring here to the 3 "aggregates" of sila, samadhi and panna from M i, 301, or do you have in mind some other classification? > Right speech, right action and right livelihood cover siila. > > Right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration cover > samatha while right thinking and right view cover vipassanaa. > > In this sense, development of samatha and vipassana would be > understood as meditation by most readers and writers of Buddhist > literature. Yes, but the question I'm asking is how the term "meditation" comes into the picture as a matter of textual analysis. > From that perspective, the Pali passage I gave in the previous post > would become nicely the textual basis for meditation, as I duly > intended in that post. > > I wrote the following in that post: > ______________________________ > > As the Buddha mentioned samatha and vipassanaa in the following > passage among others, the term `meditation' as the equivalent of the > Pali terms `samatha' and `vipassanaa' has basis in the Pali > Tipi.taka' > > 32. "Dve me, bhikkhave, dhammaa vijjaabhaagiyaa. Katame dve? Samatho > ca vipassanaa ca. > > Section 32, Baalavaggo, Dukanipaata Pali, Anguttaranikaayo. > _________________________________ Sorry, but I still can't see any *textual* basis for the term "meditation". You will have to spell it out in simpler terms for me ;-)) When talking about textual basis, the fact that the development of samatha and vipassana "would be understood as meditation by most readers and writers of Buddhist literature" is surely of no relevance. As far as I know, this use of "meditation" is a relatively recent phenomenon (say within the last 50 to 100 years). > Jon, it is worth remembering that I did not offer the > term `meditation' as a literal translation of the term `bhaavanaa'. > > You should also keep in mind that the term `bhaavanaa' is > meaningless without its objects: things to develop. > > Now, things to develop are samatha and vipassanaa. In what sense do you mean that samatha and vipassana are the "objects" of bhavana? To my understanding, they are the 2 main *kinds* of bhavana mentioned in the teachings. Jon #96264 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Request for Comment - 1st Vibh, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, --- On Tue, 24/2/09, szmicio wrote: >1)"There is material quality that is grasped(by craving and false view) (Atthi ruupa.m upaadinna.m) " L: What does upaadinna.m means? .... S: As Nina said, we have to consider the two meanings of upaadinna rupas. There are: a)rupas conditioned by kamma, as a result of clinging in the cycle of D.O. b)rupas which are clung to. There is a link of course. I had some very detailed discussions on these points before. You may like to look at these posts I wrote and some of the threads in the discussions: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49829 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49992 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50127 Happy to discuss any points further in due course. Metta, Sarah p.s Keep up your good questions - they are helpful for all of us! Someone will always respond sooner or later:-). ========== #96265 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > If > I follow "wrong view" and get side-tracked, I have no doubt that you > will remind me whenever possible, even if you don't see me for several thousand lifetimes. Eventually I'll get the idea! ... S: :-) .... > Thanks for your good notes above, and also for permission to keep > tormenting various group members. That is especially good of you. :-) .... S: Your idea of 'tormenting' is a very mild version, so torment away to your heart's content :-) Metta, Sarah p.s a copy of 'Survey' is on its way to you, thanks to Sukin & Kevin's arrangement....(Kevin being a friend returning to the States). Perhaps Melanie will pick it up from your coffee table and take an interest too... ======== #96266 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Concepts sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Firstly, sorry to hear about your computer monitor. I hope you're able to get it fixed/replaced soon. No hurry for any replies... --- On Wed, 25/2/09, upasaka@... wrote: >> Howard: > And consciousness (recollection, really) of the thinking. Ideas and > stretches of thought (or thinking) are actually one and the same. When we think > that in addition to the thinking, there are other things called "ideas," we > are, I believe, making a mistake. > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - >S: I can see why I didn't rush to respond - Just as seeing is different from visible object, hearing is different from sound, bodily experiencing is different from hardness, so thinking is different from the ideas thought about. ... ============ ========= ======= H:>I don't believe in actual things that are ideas/thoughts. I only believe in the process of thinking. .... S: But weren't you saying in the comments above that thinking and ideas are one and the same? I certainly agree with this comment that there is just a "process of thinking", no "actual things that are ideas/thoughts." I think it's very important to distinguish between the thinking itself, which can be known and the ideas which are not "actual things". .... H:>And for your own Abhidhammic consideration: What sort of dhamma would an idea/thought be? It is not rupa and it is not nama (including nibbana), and, IMO, that makes it nothing at all. ... S: Exactly.....it's a concept, not a nama or rupa, not an actual reality. Metta, Sarah ========= #96267 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:25 am Subject: Re: On Anicca Part2 sarahprocter... Hi Alex, While you're aroound, back to #93932. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hello Sarah, TG, and all, > > Seeing things as they are is a proximate cause for Nibbida & Viraga > (see Upanisa sutta and others). Seeing impermanence is seeing things > as they are, .... S: Only after clearly seeing them as the are as dhammas, as namas and rupas, not as mountains and pens. There cannot be the higher stages of insight before the first stage - the clear understanding of namas and rupas has been realised. ... >and in tilakkhana teachings the understanding of anicca > makes one understand dukkha and understanding of dukkha, anatta. ... S: Again, I'd stress that only by understanding namas and rupas as anatta - just dhammas, no person, no thing involved, can there be any understanding of the anicca of such dhammas. I agree with you that it is by understanding the characteristic of anicca (and anatta) that the characteristic of dukkha of such dhammas can be understood. ... > The doctrine of momentariness while not only being a flawed theory, > doesn't really fit in to the Buddha's liberative teaching and into > the description of the path leading to nibbida and viraga. ... S: Those dhammas which are anicca, dukkha and anatta, arise momentarily by conditions and fall away immediately. There is nothing worth clinging onto for an instant. Gradually, by understanding conditioned dhammas for what they are, there is a turning away from them, an understanding of their repulsiveness and so on. ... > It is very appropriately to be disgusted by the disgusting body and > ist growing old, aging and decaying. ... S: Mostly when we think of the body as disgusting, it is with aversion (dosa), not with any wisdom. Thinking about growing old and so on is quite different from understanding the rupas of the body when they appear *momentarily*. In reality, there is no body, no person, no old age. There are just the various rupas (and namas) arising and falling away. While we cling to the idea of body, posture and person as existing, it indicates there is no understanding of the qualities you refer to above. ... >But it is much less likely and > much harder (if possible at all) to be disgusted merely with 36 > trillion mind moments happening every second sort of change. ... S: Again, this is just a concept ("36 trillion mind moments") which has nothing to do with the understanding of nibbida. Insight can only develop when there is an understanding of ultimate realities, of the various elements or khandhas. I'll look forward to what you find in the Abhidhamma texts you've been reading on such points. Metta, Sarah ========= #96268 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:33 am Subject: Re: Mere 'Considering' leads to liberation? sarahprocter... Hi Alex, And back to #93944 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > In Samyutta Nikaya Khandavaggo there are suttas where Buddha > teaches Anattalakkhana. He then teaches 5 aggregates are anicca, > dukkha, anatta. > > "Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows > disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with > perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with > consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through > dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the > knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the > holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this > world.'" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.than.html > > At first this seems supporting the idea that if you think > or 'consider' 5 aggregates in a tilakkhana way that somehow you are > going to become an Arahant. Is that really the case? .... S: No! This has nothing to do with thinking or considering. It is "seeing this", the direct understanding of the various khandhas as anicca, dukkha and anatta. Visible object is understood in this way, so is sound, so are other rupas, so are namas. By directly understanding these dhammas for what they are (after having clearly understood their specific characteristics), as the sutta says, there is a growing "disenchantment" and "dispassion" towards them. There is a turning away from the conditioned and a turning towards the unconditioned. This is the path towards release from samsara. Metta, Sarah ======= #96269 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Mon, 23/2/09, Alex wrote: > Are 5,500+ pages of suttas NOT enough? ... S: Not enough for most of us with more than a little dust in our eyes and in need of significant assistance:-) Metta, Sarah =========== #96270 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- On Mon, 23/2/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >If there were no intermediary volition or action necessary on the part of the practitioner, why would Buddha say something so directive and aimed at the person as "Meditate Ananda! Don't be heedless!" ... S: For those who could understand, this was a reminder of the great value of bhavana - now. They wouldn't have been mis-led into thinking there was any self that could do anything or any volition or action that would arise by wishing. ... >Doesn't that language flatly contradict the notion that one should not instruct or put forward the idea of conventional effort towards the practitioner? And doesn't it flatly contradict the idea that all of Buddha's talks were descriptive rather than prescriptive? .... S: Whatever is said in the Teachings has to be understood in the light of dhammas as being (and known to be) anatta and conditioned. As understanding grows, it doesn't mean there is less use of conventional language or that one no longer encourages those around one to develop kusala of all kinds. ... >Whatever one may think of a volitional self -- which I think all of us arguing agree does not exist in fact -- one cannot argue in the face of such a statement that Buddha did not use prescriptive language as a skillful device. ... S: "A skillful device" without any misunderstanding by him or Ananda that any bhavana, any 'meditation', any dhammas whatsoever (apart from nibbana, of course) could arise by anything other than conditions. The Buddha could not make or force Ananda to develop greater wisdom and nor could Ananda do such. However, the hearing of the Teachings, the emphasis on the urgency of such development, may be a condition for such wisdom to arise. ... >.....that it makes more sense to see the impersonal nature of such directives and that imperatives have their affect on kandhas and create effects in cittas and cetasikas in an impersonal way even though the concept of conventional self is used in the formulation of instructions; ... S: OK, that'll pass:-). ... >By extension, if the conventional self-concept gets one to sit down and meditate with the idea "I am going to discern realities," it is quite possible that the "I-concept" itself will be one of the objects that becomes discerned in that process and that the original intention will open up to a higher level of panna, to see that there is no self in the process but that the process still works. .... S: Now, you're pushing your luck.... ... >It almost seems superstitious to believe that even with a mind open to observation of what is, that one believes that one cannot get on the right track unless one is already totally free of self-concept and therefore all volitional activities should be avoided as they will prevent the development of panna. ... S: I don't think anyone has said this! We're involved in "volitional activities" all day, like now. It's not a question of avoidance of such activities or of being "totally free of self-concept", but of understanding more about the present dhammas, regardless. Metta, Sarah ====== #96271 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Greetings sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Mon, 23/2/09, szmicio wrote: > >L: When javana-cittas arise, the seeing consiousnes has fallen away. > > How can it be an object for javana-cittas? It's no longer there > when > > javana-cittas arise and experience their object. > ... > S: Its characteristic still appears (by 'na vattabbaaramma. naa' as I > just referred you to). See more on this term in U.P. >L: Well, can you say more? What is U.P ? ... S: Were you able to find the 'Useful Posts'? All conditioned dhammas have a nimitta, an impression. When the seeing-consciousness (or other dhamma) appears to the mind-door cittas, it is a nimitta, a 'duplicate' of the reality of seeing consciousness itself which appears and the characteristic of that nama can be known. 'Na vattabbaaramma.naa' means 'cannot be classified'. It is not the actual nama, seeing consciousness, because that has fallen away. However, it is not a concept of seeing consciousness either. It is the reality 'by way of na vattabba'. This is a very techncal point, but it can be useful to clear up doubts. The important point is just the understanding of the characteristic of the reality, seeing consciousness, for example. It can be known just as it is when it appears. At such a time, there's no thought about whether it's a reality, a concept, a nimitta or how many processes of cittas arise. It's just the dhamma which arises, experiences visible object and then disappears. I really appreciate the way you reflect deeply on the Teachings. Metta, Sarah p.s CMA and a couple of other books on their way to Poland... ========== #96272 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > Robert, you are right. Well, if "doing something" is wrong, then how > can we not do anything? Isn't walking to the car, driving, eating, > washing, etc etc considered to be doing something? .... S: How many exchanges have we had, Alex? Have I (or anyone else) ever suggested that there cannot be any 'doing' of anything or that walking to the car is wrong? .... > By some people's logic, we shouldn't even move the limbs because that > would involve "self concept"... ... S: Again, is this what you really understand anyone here to have ever said? [Of course, if you think that by lifting an arm, satipatthana will arise, then I agree with you that there is clearly wrong view at work.] ... > Apparently some do not know that one can meditate on characteristics > and without self concept involved... ... S: Like we keep asking Suan, what do you mean by "one can meditate on characteristics" here? Who or what meditates and when? What are the characteristics of that are meditated on? What exactly is meditation? Can there be meditation now? Can there be peace and quiet now? Metta, Sarah ======== #96273 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Mon, 23/2/09, szmicio wrote: >We cannot experience eradiction of dukkha by "changing" realities. There is so much Self involved. ... S: Yes! ... >S:Life is very simple and easy-going > when one doesn't need to search for answers or try to do anything for right understanding to develop. One knows it all comes back to the > understanding of whatever dhamma is appearing now by conditions > already. There's no need to look for it! L: sadhu!! It's so big relief so big. It's so similar to those Sigalovada words: "Excellent, Lord, excellent! It is as if, Lord, a man were to set upright that which was overturned, or were to reveal that which was hidden, or were to point out the way to one who had gone astray, or were to hold a lamp amidst the darkness, so that those who have eyes may see. Even so, has the doctrine been explained in various ways by the Exalted One." ... S: Sadhu in turn!! If we we feel a bit down or depressed or have doubts at times as you sometimes refer to, we can reflect that this Teaching about anatta is the greatest treasure. There is a lamp in the darkness and nothing else matters. I appreciate your encouragement as well. Metta, Sarah ====== #96274 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:10 am Subject: Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi szmicio Dear Sarah How do you deal with lobha in daily life? How do you deal with mana in daily life? can ditthi arise in sense-door process? Diffrent points of views are listed in some Suttas. These views are called wrong views. for example: When someone takes realities as not-existent. natthika-ditthi But ditthi dont think. it cant think. I consider it yet as a reality which takes things for something in a wrong way. Can you say more on ditthi. It's very important point to me. Best wishes Lukas #96275 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. jonoabb Hi Howard Reverting to the discussion we were having, while I was away from Hong Kong, concerning the Kalamas Sutta (AN 3's), I've now checked the BB translation for his notes on the "ten inadequate criteria of truth" (I presume the notes are based on the commentary, although they are not actually attributed as such). > > Please especially note not to go by scripture ... > > I take this to mean not to accept statements of doctrine (for > example, "There is but one God") at face value. > --------------------------------------------- > Why would you take it so? Scripture means scripture. I suppose one could > take anything to mean anything if one is so inclined. ;-) > ------------------------------------------------ According to BB's note: "collection of scriptures" (pi.taka-sampadaa) signifies any collection of religious texts regarded as infallible ... So it is not a reference to the teachings of the Buddha (as I think you were suggesting), since the teachings contain no doctrine of infallibility. > > ...nor by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher'. > > I take this to mean accepting something as true on the strength of > the standing of the person by whom it is stated. > ----------------------------------------------- > Yes, for example being the Buddha. > --------------------------------------------- According to BB's note, this refers to: the authority stemming from the speaker's relationship to oneself, i.e. that he is one's own personal teacher. It is clear from other suttas that the Buddha's teachings are to be experienced each person for him/herself. This particular "inadequate creation" is another expression of that aspect of the teachings. Jon Kalamas Sutta Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' then you should enter & remain in them. #96276 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:35 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "70. 'Deities guard him': deities guard him as a mother and father guard their child. "71. 'Fire, poison, and weapons do not affect him': they do not affect, do not enter into, the body of one who abides in lovingkindness, like the fire in the case of the lay woman devotee of Uttaraa, like the poison in the case of the Sa"myutta reciter the Elder Cuu.la-siva, like the knife in the case of the novice Sa"nkiccaa; they do not disturb the body, is what is meant. "72. And they tell the story of the cow here too. a cow was giving milk to her calf, it seems. A hunter, thinking, 'I shall shoot her', flourished a long-handled spear in his hand and flung it. It struck her body and bounced off like a palm leaf - and that was owing neither to access nor absorption, but simply to the strength of her consciousness of love for her calf. So mightily powerful is lovingkindness." Path of Purity. "(6) 'Devas guard him': - that is to say, as parents guard their son. (7) Fire, poison, and sword come not near him': - the body of him who lives in love fire does not burn, as for example Uttaraa the lay-sister; poison does not enter, as for instance the Elder Cuu.lasiva, a repeater of the Sa"myutta; the sword does not touch, witness Sa"nkicca the novice. 'They cannot injure his body': - In this connection they relate the story of the doe. The spear struck the body and was curbed int rolls like a palm-leaf, not by strength of access, nor by strength of ecstasy, but just by the strength of her thoughts of love for the fawn. So greatly powerful is love." Devataa rakkhantiiti puttamiva maataapitaro devataa rakkhanti. Naassaaggi vaa visa.m vaa sattha.m vaa kamatiiti mettaavihaarissa kaaye uttaraaya upaasikaaya viya aggi vaa, sa"myuttabhaa.nakacuu.lasivattherasseva visa.m vaa, sa.mkiccasaama.nerasseva sattha.m vaa na kamati, na pavisati. Naassa kaaya.m vikopetiiti vutta.m hoti. Dhenuvatthumpi cettha kathayanti . Ekaa kira dhenu vacchakassa khiiradhaara.m mu~ncamaanaa a.t.thaasi. Eko luddako ta.m vijjhissaamiiti hatthena samparivattetvaa diighada.n.dasatti.m mu~nci. Saa tassaa sariira.m aahacca taalapa.n.na.m viya pava.t.tamaanaa gataa, neva upacaarabalena, na appanaabalena, kevala.m vacchake balavapiyacittataaya. Eva.m mahaanubhaavaa mettaati. Sincerely, Scott. #96277 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Sat, 28/2/09, szmicio wrote: >How do you deal with lobha in daily life? >How do you deal with mana in daily life? ... S: I don't! They arise very, very often in the day, especially common, ordinary lobha. Either there's just ignorance of them at such times or occasionally there's some understanding and awareness. That's all! I don't fret or try to stop them arising or wish there were more understanding or less lobha. Any such thinking is so very useless and is just self-bound as I see it. ... >can ditthi arise in sense-door process? ... S: Yes, I believe it can, just as panna can. However, I just know that in theory. It gives an indication of how quickly such grasping (or wisdom) can arise with regard to visible object. .... >Diffrent points of views are listed in some Suttas. These views are called wrong views. for example: When someone takes realities as not-existent. natthika-ditthi >But ditthi dont think. it cant think. ... S: Good point. It can arise with cittas which think in such away, wrongly grasping at such a time. Like when there is the idea that a computer really exists, there's thinking and with it ditthi. When there's an idea of it being my leg in reality, again ditthi is there with the cittas that have such an impression. There doesn't have to be any thinking in words or symbols. KS would say to you that only panna can know when ditthi arises as you know. ... >I consider it yet as a reality which takes things for something in a wrong way. Can you say more on ditthi. It's very important point to me. ... S: Yes, there may be thinking about the computer or one's leg often in a day without any ditthi arising. When a child plays, there's lots of thinking about toys and other objects of lobha, but no ditthi taking 'things' for realities. There's just lots of ignorance and lobha. And this is how it is for us as well most of the day. However, when there is the idea of the rupas of the body belonging to me or actually being a body or posture, ditthi may well be arising. Only panna can know and we can welcome such ditthi when it arises and is seen as this is the only time and way it can be known. Panna can also develop to see more subtle kinds of ditthi arising until it's finally eradicated at the stage of sotapanna. Actually, there are many kinds of ditthi as included under the 3 kinds of upadana with dithi. Without sakkaya-ditthi, there are no other kinds of ditthi arising, so they all come back to the basis of wrong view of self. Metta, Sarah p.s Lots of detail again in U.P. under 'wrong view'. Also in the Brahamajala Sutta. ======== #96278 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:10 am Subject: An Assumption of Two Points of View. scottduncan2 Dear All, Listening to the recently added sessions with Kh. Sujin, 2007-01-13-a, the questioner is referring to his house and the discussion is of the existence of the house. One can hear the very oft discussed dilemma in relation to what are being construed as a 'conventional' and a 'paramattha aspect' or 'sense' or 'point of view'. Q: "...From paramattha aspect this is correct..." Kh. S: "It shows that even [though] you have insight [that] all realities [are] not self it doesn't mean you have don't have any idea about your house anymore because its just moment of thinking." Q: "But in the conventional sense its difficult. From Dhamma point of view you are one hundred percent correct, I have nothing against that from the paramattha point of view... Kh. S: "So just understand that correctly that's all. You can think about your house, about everything, but there is understanding that it's only thinking. No permanent 'I' who is still there but it's only a moment of conditioned thought or idea or thinking arising and falling away." Scott: I'm thinking that this shows a common misunderstanding, that is, the construing of two separate points of view of the conventional and the paramattha. This then leads to thinking and wrestling with how to justify these two points of view, how to reconcile the one with the other. I think, rather, that there is only one, that is, at the base of it all. That, essentially, or actually, there are only paramattha dhammas. As Kh. Sujin seems to point out, this needs to be understood correctly and then one doesn't find it confusing to think about a house. There are only paramattha dhammas, no matter what the level of development pa~n~naa attains to. The greater the strength of pa~n~naa the more it is known that there are and always have been just paramattha dhammas. I'm thinking about this while sitting in my house. Which is mine (and the bank's). Sincerely, Scott. #96279 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi szmicio Dear Sarah, > >How do you deal with lobha in daily life? > >How do you deal with mana in daily life? > ... > S: I don't! They arise very, very often in the day, especially common, ordinary lobha. Either there's just ignorance of them at such times or occasionally there's some understanding and awareness. That's all! I don't fret or try to stop them arising or wish there were more understanding or less lobha. Any such thinking is so very useless and is just self-bound as I see it. L: so it's very natural. nice to hear it.I know a lot from my daily life, but your words give me so much support. doubts and moha are strong. Personally I don't like mana and also thinks a long stories about it. For so many lifes I used to take it for mine, for myself. Now I am starting to see that's just ditthi which grasped it wrongly, not me. I want to hear from you Sarah more about thinking. Can pa~n~na arise even now and know characteristic of ditthi? Can 'wise thinking' know characteristic of ditthi? In which point vipassana starts? wise thinking doesnt know paramattha dhammas,does it? --------------- > >can ditthi arise in sense-door process? > ... > S: Yes, I believe it can, just as panna can. However, I just know that in theory. It gives an indication of how quickly such grasping (or wisdom) can arise with regard to visible object. L: so is it nimitta? just we know only a nimitta? When there is 4th stage of insight which know arising and falling away, does it knows each citta separatelly, can pinpoint it? ----------- > >Diffrent points of views are listed in some Suttas. These views are > called wrong views. for example: > When someone takes realities as not-existent. natthika-ditthi > > >But ditthi dont think. it cant think. > ... > S: Good point. It can arise with cittas which think in such away, wrongly grasping at such a time. Like when there is the idea that a computer really exists, there's thinking and with it ditthi. When there's an idea of it being my leg in reality, again ditthi is there with the cittas that have such an impression. There doesn't have to be any thinking in words or symbols. > > KS would say to you that only panna can know when ditthi arises as you know. L: So I can go throught street and pa~n~na which has ditthi as object can arise. Or now it's impossible because i am beginner on the path? My best wishes Lukas #96280 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Hi Howard, thanks for your interest. But I cannot follow what you mean here. Sorry. What do you mean: on the mental stage. Hope the best for your modum, but has it to do with security? Once ours was not safeguarded and used by an intruder. Nina. Op 27-feb-2009, om 16:25 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > My hypothesis (just mine - no claim of scriptural basis) is that > all but > one are subliminal, but all arise "on the mental stage." #96281 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 28-feb-2009, om 5:07 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Question iv: Can bhavanga-citta be accompanied by wisdom?" > > If the question is asking whether bhavanga-citta can have three roots, > one of which is wisdom, then the answer is yes. ------ N: Yes, if we are reborn with three roots, thus, pa~n~naa included, also all bhavangacittas are of the same type and have three roots. They are the results of kamma accompanied by pa~n~naa. ------- > Pt: However, if it is > asking whether bhavanga-citta can be known directly through insight > with panna, then I'm not sure. Can it be? Can we actually 'see' > bhavanga cittas? ------- N: This question does not relate to your first Q. The characteristic of bhavangacitta can be known by insight. We discussed this with Kh Sujin. When there is no process of cittas that know sense objects like colour or sound, there are still cittas, and these are bhavangacittas. We cannot try to catch them, it depends on sati and pa~n~naa. She said: why would the Buddha teach all these realities if they could not be known? As to your former Q.: < if for example we have a sound impinging on the ear-door, and a visual object impinging on the eye-door at the same time..> we have to keep in mind that only one object at a time can be experienced. When colour is experienced, sound cannot be experienced at the same time. Different processes at different moments, and we do not need to think of the preceding bhavangacittas and all the cittas in detail. But this knowledge helps us to see that each citta arises because of its appropriate conditions and is not self. It cannot be regulated at all, it has arisen before we notice it and then it is gone immediately. Nina. #96282 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Concepts upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - ??? Replying from the library. (Still probably a week or two before the monitor is repaired or replaced.) My only comment on this post of yours is "Cool! We agree!!! ;-))" With metta, Howard -----Original Message----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Concepts Hi Howard, Firstly, sorry to hear about your computer monitor. I hope you're able to get it fixed/replaced soon. No hurry for any replies... --- On Wed, 25/2/09, upasaka@... wrote: >> Howard: > And consciousness (recollection, really) of the thinking. Ideas and > stretches of thought (or thinking) are actually one and the same. When we think > that in addition to the thinking, there are other things called "ideas," we > are, I believe, making a mistake. > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - >S: I can see why I didn't rush to respond - Just as seeing is different from visible object, hearing is different from sound, bodily experiencing is different from hardness, so thinking is different from the ideas thought about. ... ============ ========= ======= H:>I don't believe in actual things that are ideas/thoughts. I only believe in the process of thinking. .... S: But weren't you saying in the comments above that thinking and ideas are one and the same? I certainly agree with this comment that there is just a "process of thinking", no "actual things that are ideas/thoughts." I think it's very important to distinguish between the thinking itself, which can be known and the ideas which are not "actual things". .... H:>And for your own Abhidhammic consideration: What sort of dhamma would an idea/thought be? It is not rupa and it is not nama (including nibbana), and, IMO, that makes it nothing at all. ... S: Exactly.....it's a concept, not a nama or rupa, not an actual reality. Metta, Sarah ========= #96283 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/28/2009 9:59:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, thanks for your interest. But I cannot follow what you mean here. Sorry. What do you mean: on the mental stage. ------------------------------------------- Howard: It's not really all that important, Nina. It reflects my phenomenalist perspective, and it really isn't worth your time or mine to get into. ------------------------------------------- Hope the best for your modum, but has it to do with security? Once ours was not safeguarded and used by an intruder. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I have both a firewall and anti-virus software, but still it is possible. At the moment I'm typing this on my home computer. When I got home from the library I found that I couldn't even boot the computer. so what I did was restore the system to state to what it was 11 days ago, and now I can (for the moment) use it. I HOPE that this will solve the monitor problem, but I doubt it. Probably it will go out again tonight. (I think it may slip into the 9th jhana, the cessation of feeling and perception! LOLOL!) ----------------------------------------- Nina ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #96284 From: "connie" Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:59 pm Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Threes (51-53) nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing from #96008 Threes (49-50) (cy: #96167, #96202) CSCD < Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions ksheri3 Hi Nina, <....> Here, Nina, I ask you if you have any particular knowledge of "vipissana" with concerns to my equalization of THE THREE MODES OF KNOWLEDGE? and yes my friends, I have re-encountered the term "distortions" within the context of Ryusei Takeda and John B.Cobb, Jr.'s paper Mosa-Dharma and Prehension: Nagarjuna and Whitehead Compared. I am cognizant of this occurance and will get to it in the weeks ahead. I can use all the help I can get so don't worry about being ashamed that you helped me. <...> thanx. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear pt, > Op 28-feb-2009, om 5:07 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > > > Question iv: Can bhavanga-citta be accompanied by wisdom?" > > > > If the question is asking whether bhavanga-citta can have three roots, > > one of which is wisdom, then the answer is yes. > ----- > N: Yes, if we are reborn with three roots, thus, pa~n~naa included, > also all bhavangacittas are of the same type and have three roots. > They are the results of kamma accompanied by pa~n~naa. > ------- <....> #96286 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- On Sat, 28/2/09, Scott wrote: >>S: "...Again, as I asked Alex, how is such 'focussing' any different from that which any yoga or healing-arts student might do? What reality appears now as we write rather than on another occasion of special focus?" >Scott: I was thinking about this on the way home today and would be interested in your opinion (unless you think the controversy factor is too high). ... Sarah: I know, wanting to push me into even deeper water....:-) ... >Given all the obvious confusion about 'meditation' , do you think there are even any conditions for jhaana to arise as it did in the Buddha's time? Conventionally, I suppose, I mean are there any legitimate 'jhaana masters' to be found in the world, but I think you get the gist. .... Sarah: All I can say is that I haven't met them and think that those whom I've heard speak of their jhana attainments seem a very long way from meeting the most basic of requirements for samatha bhavana... And by most basic or requirements, I don't mean living away from family and friends and so forth, but understanding the distinction between kusala and akusala at this moment, understanding what samatha is and understanding how reflection on any of the given objects can bring about such calm. Metta, Sarah ========== #96287 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:50 pm Subject: Re: Greetings szmicio Dear Sarah > S: Were you able to find the 'Useful Posts'? L: U mean Useful Posts from Files section? > All conditioned dhammas have a nimitta, an impression. When the seeing-consciousness (or other dhamma) appears to the mind-door cittas, it is a nimitta, a 'duplicate' of the reality of seeing consciousness itself which appears and the characteristic of that nama can be known. 'Na vattabbaaramma.naa' means 'cannot be classified'. It is not the actual nama, seeing consciousness, because that has fallen away. However, it is not a concept of seeing consciousness either. It is the reality 'by way of na vattabba'. This is a very techncal point, but it can be useful to clear up doubts. L: 'Na vattabbaaramma.naa', I know this from Dispeller 203. But what do you mean here by saying it? Does it mean that nimitta is also 'Na vattabbaaramma.na'. In dispeller there was said the only object which is 'na vattabbaaramma.naa' are concepts. 'na vattabba' means what should not be spoken. So 'Na vattabbaaramma.naa' means objects that shouldnt be spoken? Shouldnt be classified? cannot be classified? Could you explain this pali term? Best wishes Lukas #96288 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart or Brain? sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- On Sun, 22/2/09, han tun wrote: >Han: I also have great confidence in what was taught by Lord Buddha. If Lord Buddha had specifically said that the heart is the base for mind-element and mind-consciousness element, I would not raise this issue however much the modern medical science may point out otherwise. But Lord Buddha had said only [ya.m ruupa.m] which can be any ruupa. .... S: I understand. Perhaps I just have a little more confidence in what his key disciples understood this to meand and how such a knowledge was preserved by the Mahavihara arahats. But, as we agree, no big deal. ... >I also agree with you that [I don't think it's very important to know exactly where it's located and in any case, we immediately introduce our concepts about 'heart', 'brain' and so on. This is because it's not directly known.] .... S: Very true. .... >It does not really matter whether it is brain or heart. I will not insist that it is the brain, but at the same time, I will not be happy if someone insists that it is the heart, because I cannot find any passage in the books where Lord Buddha specifically said it is the heart. It is possible, though, that my knowledge is limited and the books I am reading do not cover the entire scope of the Teachings of Lord Buddha. ... S: This means that you are excluding the ancient commentaries compiled by Buddhaghosa from your scope. Many people do, but I think all the ancient wisdom and explanation of the suttas, Vinaya and Abhidhamma is lost in this case. I believe they were accepted by the Great Councils held in Sri Lanka and Myanmar after their compilation, weren't they? May I ask, apart from the heart issue, is there any other reason you're unhappy with accepting them as being Buddha vaccana? .... ... Han: I do not have any difficulty in accepting what you have written above. But I maintain the same position that I had stated above, i.e., [I will not insist that it is the brain, but at the same time, I will not be happy if someone insists that it is the heart, because I cannot find any passage in the books where Lord Buddha specifically said it is the heart.] For example, please look at the translation that you had quoted: [Depending on this matter (i.e. heart-base), mind-element and mind-consciousness element arise] You will see that the translator had inserted the word (heart-base) within brackets, and so it is not the word of Lord Buddha. .... S: I agree that it is the word of the ancient commentaries and it depends whether one considers these to be 'Buddha vaccana' or not. ============== Han: Yes, I cannot now drive, and they do not want me to go far from our house. Although I feel better than last year, the medicine that I am taking for prostate lowers my blood pressure and makes me dizzy. It also weakens my muscles. My leg muscles get easily tired while walking, and even my jaw muscles get tired while chewing the food. Well, nothing in this world is free and there is always a price to pay! ... S: That's true and I appreciate your 'warrior spirit' and confidence in studying the Dhamma regardless of such aches and pains. As it happens, I've always had very low blood pressure and been prone to dizziness and fainting, so I understand. Sometimes I'll be speaking to someone and just 'space out'. Internet's great for us:-). Metta, Sarah p.s thanks again for your excellent points and challenging questions on the latest edited recordings uploaded. You'll see Scott has transcribed the 'house' discussion and I remember you gave a good summary of this at the time, but can't find it now. If it's difficult for you to listen/download the on-line version, would you like us to send you a c.d. in mp3? ========== #96289 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Assumption of Two Points of View. sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, I like the way you presented the extract with your comments and would like to encourage you (and others) to do more of the same......another series? [Ann, perhaps that would be an idea for you and Lodewijk!] ... --- On Sat, 28/2/09, Scott wrote: Scott: >I think, rather, that there is only one, that is, at the base of it all. That, essentially, or actually, there are only paramattha dhammas. As Kh. Sujin seems to point out, this needs to be understood correctly and then one doesn't find it confusing to think about a house. There are only paramattha dhammas, no matter what the level of development pa~n~naa attains to. The greater the strength of pa~n~naa the more it is known that there are and always have been just paramattha dhammas. ... S: Nicely put! ... Scott:> I'm thinking about this while sitting in my house. Which is mine (and the bank's). ... S: These days, less 'mine' and more 'bank's' in this and other parts of the world. But then, it's all just a moment of thinking.... Metta Sarah ======= #96290 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 12:45 am Subject: Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for your reply. Regarding ADL chapter 16: "Citta is another class of dhammarammana. Cittas experience different objects, arammanas, but citta itself can be arammana as well. Citta can have kusala cittas, akusala cittas and many other types of citta as its object." I realise this might be a very simplistic question, but what is an experience of a citta as an object? I think I can tell when a cetasika is the object – like a feeling, or perception, or attention, etc. But I'm not sure about citta. So far I thought citta is just a way of saying "moment of consciousness", while the "color" of that moment, or the "taste" of the experience, is supplied by the mix of cetasikas at that moment. So perhaps the experience of a past citta as an object is like recalling the experience of the "taste" of a particular mix of cetasikas at a past moment? Or it's something else entirely? Thanks pt #96291 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 12:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear Colette, thanks for your post. I cannot answer it because I am not familiar with the authors you mention. They seem far away from the Abhidhamma. Nina. Op 28-feb-2009, om 22:07 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > Here, Nina, I ask you if you have any particular knowledge > of "vipissana" with concerns to my equalization of THE THREE MODES OF > KNOWLEDGE? and yes my friends, I have re-encountered the > term "distortions" within the context of Ryusei Takeda and John > B.Cobb, #96292 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 1:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi nilovg Dear Sarah and Lukas, Op 28-feb-2009, om 14:46 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > How do you deal with lobha in daily life? > >How do you deal with mana in daily life? > ... > S: I don't! They arise very, very often in the day, especially > common, ordinary lobha. Either there's just ignorance of them at > such times or occasionally there's some understanding and > awareness. That's all! I don't fret or try to stop them arising or > wish there were more understanding or less lobha. Any such thinking > is so very useless and is just self-bound as I see it. ------- N: After dinner I started to read to Lodewijk from my Cetasikas, about maana, conceit, and mentioned the title: conceit. He exclaimed: O, my God. I told him then about Sarah's post: how do you deal with lobha...maana? Sarah: 'I don't'. He found that a very good reminder. There is still an idea of self who wants to deal with it, instead of understanding it as just a conditioned dhamma. We may have an idea of a self we want to be perfect. We think about the names of akusala, but as soon as we think about lobha or maana, they have gone already. For instance, we may have dosa with unpleasant feeling and would like to remedy this, but then it is good to remember that it is past already. Nina. #96293 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 1-mrt-2009, om 9:45 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Regarding ADL chapter 16: > > "Citta is another class of dhammarammana. Cittas experience different > objects, arammanas, but citta itself can be arammana as well. Citta > can have kusala cittas, akusala cittas and many other types of citta > as its object." > > I realise this might be a very simplistic question, but what is an > experience of a citta as an object? ------ N: Good question, not at all simplistic. It touches on the development of insight. Seeing is one citta, hearing is another citta, thinking is another citta. You may notice that these are different moments of citta. You can also know that these citttas have different characteristics, and this means: there can be attending to these without naming them, without having to think about them. -------- > pt: I think I can tell when a cetasika > is the object – like a feeling, or perception, or attention, etc. But > I'm not sure about citta. So far I thought citta is just a way of > saying "moment of consciousness", while the "color" of that moment, or > the "taste" of the experience, is supplied by the mix of cetasikas at > that moment. ------- N: Noticing feeling, perception etc. this is still by way of thinking about them, naming them. But we can learn to attend to different characteristics without naming them. We can learn that citta is different from cetasika, but, this can only be realized by the development of insight which directly penetrates different characteristics. Still, a beginning can be made. When attending to the characteristic of citta there is no attention to the object it experiences. For example, when thinking of the concept house, there can be awareness of the characteristic of thinking and one does not mind what concept it thinks of. -------- > > pt:So perhaps the experience of a past citta as an object is like > recalling the experience of the "taste" of a particular mix of > cetasikas at a past moment? Or it's something else entirely? ------ N: When citta is the object, cetasikas are not the object. At other moments a cetasika can be the object, but not a mix, only one at a time. A citta such as seeing can be the object of another citta, but then the seeing has fallen away and citta with mindfulness and understanding arises in a following process. Cittas arise and fall away so rapidly and although the seeing has fallen away it can still be an object. Remember Sarah's post: it is not a concept, but it is a 'not so classified object', navattabbaarama.na. But no need to think about such terms. We can notice seeing just now, or hearing just now, and that means that there is already a new process of cittas knowing seeing or hearing which seem to be still present. Their characteristics appear and can be known. Nina. #96294 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 5:21 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Concluding: The Path of Purification. "73. 'His mind is easily concentrated': the mind of one who abides in lovingkindness is quickly concentrated, there is no sluggishness about it. "74. 'The expression of his face is serene': his face ha a serene expression, like a palmyra fruit loosed from its stem. "75. 'He dies unconfused': there is no dying deluded for one who abides in lovingkindness. He passes away undeluded as if falling asleep. "76. 'If he penetrates no higher': if he is unable to reach higher than the attainment of lovingkindness and attain Arahatship, then when he falls from this life, he reappears in the Brahmaa-world as one who wakes up from sleep. "This is the detailed explanation of the development of lovingkindness." Path of Purity. "(8) 'Quickly he concentrates his mind': - he who lives in love concentrates his mind quickly. There is no sluggishness in him. (9) 'His complexion is serene': - he has a calm countenance, like a ripe palm about to fall from the stalk. (10) 'He dies undeluded': - the death of him who lives in love knows no delusion. Without delusion he dies as though falling into sleep. (11) 'If he penetrates no further': - if, after death, he is unable to attain saintship which is higher than the attainment of love, he is reborn in Brahmaa's heaven as though he awoke from sleep. This is the detailed Discourse on the Developing of Love." Tuva.ta.m citta.m samaadhiyatiiti mettaavihaarino khippameva citta.m samaadhiyati, natthi tassa dandhaayitatta.m. Mukhava.n.no vippasiidatiiti bandhanaa pavutta.m taalapakka.m viya cassa vippasannava.n.na.m mukha.m hoti. Asammuu.lho kaala"nkarotiiti mettaavihaarino sammohamara.na.m naama natthi, asammuu.lhova nidda.m okkamanto viya kaala.m karoti. Uttarimappa.tivijjhantoti mettaasamaapattito uttari.m arahatta.m adhigantu.m asakkonto ito cavitvaa suttappabuddho viya brahmalokamupapajjatiiti. Aya.m mettaabhaavanaaya.m vitthaarakathaa. Sincerely, Scott. #96295 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 10:41 am Subject: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply. Sarah: "I know, wanting to push me into even deeper water....:-)" Scott: Yeah, well, you're attached to your board I bet.:-) Not wanting to be controversial - just conversation between like-minded friends. Sarah: All I can say is that I haven't met them and think that those whom I've heard speak of their jhana attainments seem a very long way from meeting the most basic of requirements for samatha bhavana ... understanding the distinction between kusala and akusala at this moment, understanding what samatha is and understanding how reflection on any of the given objects can bring about such calm." Scott: I've not spoken to nearly the number of 'practitioners' as I imagine you have, yet have garnered the same impression. And yes, conditions related to place and circumstance aside, lack of development conducive to recognition of kusala would make it impossible for jhaana. And this even after the desire for it and the belief in the willful alteration of conditions would already serve as conditions for its non-arising. Definitely food for thought in a world full of alluring ideas about 'spirituality'. Sincerely, Scott. #96296 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 10:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Assumption of Two Points of View. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "I like the way you presented the extract with your comments and would like to encourage you (and others) to do more of the same......another series? [Ann, perhaps that would be an idea for you and Lodewijk!]" Scott: Thank you. I'd enjoy doing a series if neither Ann nor Lodewijk were willing. Sincerely, Scott. #96297 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 10:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Assumption of Two Points of View. nilovg Dear Scott, Op 1-mrt-2009, om 19:44 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > Scott: Thank you. I'd enjoy doing a series if neither Ann nor > Lodewijk were willing. ------ N: Lodewijk prefers to be silent. Nina. #96298 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > > Since one cannot make panna come about, or even arrange to hear the > > correct sutta, one had better hope that the right conditions come > > about and leave it at that. > > These are the 2 "extremes" the Buddha spoke about: making panna > arise and leaving it entirely to events (you must be familiar with > the well-known simile about crossing the stream given by the Buddha: > neither by struggling nor by doing nothing). > > The path taught by the Buddha is neither of these. Well this gets into a good area. So I will ask you: since doing nothing is an extreme as well, how does one *not* leave it entirely to events? What are the correct ways of taking action, and how does this *not* contradict the idea that there is no one to act or to have any volition whatsoever? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #96299 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 8:59 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > > > (It has already been agreed in our discussion that both > meditation > > > and Abhidhamma study, as conventional activities, are activities > that > > > may either be performed with wrong view or without.) > > > > I had not realized this, so thanks for mentioning it. It has been > > said by others that meditation can *only* lead to akusala arising, > > since it is a product of wrong view. I appreciate your saying it is > > possible to meditate with right view, even if you don't believe it > is > > too common. > > Not quite. I was talking about meditation undertaken for reasons not > associated with the development of the path (such as its health > benefits). > > > I am interested in a bit more of a sense of what constitutes a > > practice or a non-practice, if you think you may be able to clarify > it. > > It is doing something in the belief that (and for the reason that) > the doing of that thing, properly done, constitutes or facilitates > the development of understanding. So reading sutta or abhidhamma or coms does not directly facilitate the path? And if it is indirect, why isn't it equally kusala to meditate with the idea that it may indirectly facilitate the path? Clearly for certain meditators, Buddha believed that practicing anapanasati *would* facilitate their path, and described the conditions under which this might take place. The meditators the Buddha addressed in the anapanasati sutta weren't meditating just for health benefits, but as a facilitation of the path. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #96300 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 9:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Roberty E and Alex > > > > What you are describing sounds like apathy & fatalism. This isn't > > > Buddha's teaching. Effort must be done. > > > > Well, to be fair it is my rather strong characterization, and may > not > > properly represent the actual philosophy. Still, I agree that the > > idea that any intentional action to promote the path is Wrong View, > > flies in the face of Right Effort. One doesn't need to assert the > > existence of a self in order to have intention and action. > > The development of the path as taught by the Buddha is not a matter > of doing, or of refraining from doing, any particular intentional > action. > > This does not make the doing of any and all intentional action wrong > practice; but it does I think mean that action done in the belief > that doing that particular form of action constitutes the development > of the path would be wrong practice. Then what constitutes right effort? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #96302 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 9:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > p.s a copy of 'Survey' is on its way to you, thanks to Sukin & > Kevin's arrangement....(Kevin being a friend returning to the > States). Perhaps Melanie will pick it up from your coffee table and > take an interest too... Thank you kindly. I see how it works now: if we plant the proper texts around we and others will pick them up "in the course of daily living" and read them in the correct kusala way. Well I will start spreading them around the place, and give Survey an especially "accidental" placement. :-) Thanks again. Best, Robert E. =========================== #96303 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 9:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Rob E. wrote: > >Whatever one may think of a volitional self -- which I think all of us > arguing agree does not exist in fact -- one cannot argue in the face > of such a statement that Buddha did not use prescriptive language as a > skillful device. > ... > S: "A skillful device" without any misunderstanding by him or Ananda that any bhavana, any 'meditation', any dhammas whatsoever (apart from nibbana, of course) could arise by anything other than conditions. The Buddha could not make or force Ananda to develop greater wisdom and nor could Ananda do such. However, the hearing of the Teachings, the emphasis on the urgency of such development, may be a condition for such wisdom to arise. Well perhaps we will all give and receive directives from now on with the idea that they are just part of the current conditions and things will happen as they do. I know that's the case when I tell my daughter what to do. Sometimes she does, and sometimes she doesn't. It's a matter of chance. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #96304 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 9:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation epsteinrob Hi Sarah. Sorry to leave out the greeting, so this is a repeat... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > > Dear Suan, > > > > Thank you also for your interest in my discussion with Rob Ep. > > > > --- On Tue, 24/2/09, abhidhammika wrote: > > >Sarah wrote: > > > > "Perhaps we can say however, that whenever there is an idea of > > focussing on a sensation or movement of the abdomen or feeling, for > > example, in order to develop satipatthana, it's wrong view. So the > > purpose of such practices (for this goal) is wrong from the start. > > ... > > > > >Suan replies: > > > > Sarah, the Buddha said the following: > > > > 374. "Kathañca pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii > > viharati? idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu araññagato vaa rukkhamuulagato > > vaa suññaagaaragato vaa nisiidati pallankam aabhujitvaa ujum > > kaayam pa.nidhaaya parimukham satim upa.t.thapetvaa. so satova > > assasati, satova passasati. > > > > Section 374, Aanaapaanapabbam, Kaayaanupassanaa, > > Mahaasatipa. t.thaana Suttam, Mahaavaggo, Diighanikaayo. > > > > 374. "And, Monks, how does a monk lives as a repeated bodyâ€"observer > > in the body? Here, Monks, the monk goes to the forest or to the root > > of the tree or to a quiet building and sits having crossed his legs, > > keeping his upper body upright, orienting mindfulness towards > > breathing as the meditation object. He inhales mindfully only. He > > exhales mindfully only." > > > > In the above Pali passage from Mahaasatipa. t.thaana Suttam, the monk > > is focussing on the processes of breathing in line with the Buddha's > > instructions for the purpose of developing mindfulness. > > .... > > Sarah: I would phrase the last comment a little differently and > suggest the monk is skilled in the development of samatha with breath > as object. > > I would ask, how did the monk become skilled in samatha with breath as > object? And even if he is skilled, is this not still a specific > object of meditation with the understanding that it is further > developing samatha or vipassana? How is it not? > > If you say "It is natural to him as this is his daily life," I would > ask "Why is it his daily life? Is it not his daily life because the > monks have been instructed from Day 1 to practice in just this way? > Why else would this practice be the norm in the monastery? It is not > for health, it is not by accident, it is because they have been > instructed to do so by the Buddha. Even if this happened quite a > while back and is now a taken-for-granted tradition, the reason is > still that they all believed and still believe that this practice of > following the breath as object facilitates the Buddha's path, and > eventually they became skilled at it. But they didn't start out that > way. And they did not become skilled at it by doing some other kusala > activity which somehow by osmosis made it's way into skill with breath > as object. They got the skill by practicing that very skill, so how > can it be Right View, ever, to ever do anapanasati at all, as part of > the path? > > It seems that if the breath meditation is practiced for health or as > part of yoga, then it may become a kusala object for Buddhist moments, > but if it is practiced for Buddhism, then it is akusala. It is hard > to believe that such a reverse formula can accord with the Buddha's > own descriptions of all the kusala results of this sort of practice. > > In fact, he says that all the factors of enlightenment will arise if > one continues to practice anapanasati. But only if it happens by > accident? > > > > > Sarah: Is this the monk's view or your view, Suan? Does the bhikkhu > (wrongly) believe that he has to "focus" in such a way to develop > satipatthana, or is this what his daily life consists of? > > I mention again, that his daily life would never consist of this > practice unless it had been deemed a part of the path in the first > place, for the purpose of developing satipatthana. Why else would he > possibly be doing such a thing in the first place? The common people > of that time outside of the monastery did not practice anapansati. It > was not like T'ai Chi in China where everyone does it in the morning > just for health. It was the province of Buddhist Monks, and they were > doing it because they were Buddhists and it was part of their monastic > path. > > Best, > Robert E. > > = = = = = = = = = = = > #96305 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, As always, I appreciate your gentle humour:-) --- On Mon, 2/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >..I see how it works now: if we plant the proper texts around we and others will pick them up "in the course of daily living" and read them in the correct kusala way. Well I will start spreading them around the place, and give Survey an especially "accidental" placement. :-) ... S: :-) And who knows which visitor or family member or visiting tourist will benefit from the "accidental" placement... Of course, conditions and accumulations being what they are, someone may pick it up and instead of reading it in the "correct kusala way" may, in a fit of wrong view or rage, throw it out of the window or at the accidental placer..... So, in the end it all comes back to the accumulated understanding of the 'listener' as to whether the Teachings (in whatever form) are a condition for kusala, for understanding based on listening (suta-maya pa~n~naa) and for understanding based on consideration (cinta-maya pa~n~naa). Metta, Sarah p.s Thanks for your other comments - more later. ====== #96306 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 10:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- On Sun, 1/3/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >N: After dinner I started to read to Lodewijk from my Cetasikas, about maana, conceit, and mentioned the title: conceit. He exclaimed: O, my God. ... S: I can 'hear' him exclaiming out loud in good humour! Yes, maana (conceit) is so very, very common! ... >I told him then about Sarah's post: how do you deal with lobha...maana? Sarah: 'I don't'. He found that a very good reminder. ... S: Thank you for mentioning it and please tell Lodewijk that there's a c.d on its way for him of KK & BKK Jan 07. ... >There is still an idea of self who wants to deal with it, instead of understanding it as just a conditioned dhamma. We may have an idea of a self we want to be perfect. We think about the names of akusala, but as soon as we think about lobha or maana, they have gone already. For instance, we may have dosa with unpleasant feeling and would like to remedy this, but then it is good to remember that it is past already. ... S: All so true and very nicely said. Metta, Sarah ======= #96307 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 10:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 2-mrt-2009, om 7:19 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: Thank you for mentioning it and please tell Lodewijk that > there's a c.d on its way for him of KK & BKK Jan 07. ------- N: That is very kind of you, but I think that is the same one as you gave already in Bgk? You suggested a new series commenced by Ann or Lodewijk. But what about Larry, he likes new series. Where is he? I miss him. I read to Lodewijk snippets from transcriptions of our recent trip. Jon asked: normal life: the most difficult thing. I said to Lodewijk that I was wondering why Jon asked this. Then Lodewijk gave ma a nice summing up of all his daily actions and how distracting he finds these. A very nice reminder for me, and I was explaining that it does not matter when there are distractions. If it matters it is self who wants to change his life. Waiting in the eyedoctor's waiting room he asked me why it is so important to know the difference between nama and rupa. I explained that it is so basic, otherwise no precise understanding of any reality. When they are together we take them for self. ******* Nina. #96308 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 11:20 pm Subject: Re: An Assumption of Two Points of View. gazita2002 hello Scott and other friends, I think you have stated ths so clearly, Scott. I have been recently thinking about this conventional and Paramattha 'dilema'. If paramattha dhammas are contemplated often enuff, and I'm talking just thinking here:-) surely the thoughts can arise more often to remind us that what we take for real in conventional realities is a wrong 'take' Trying to fit conventional reality into paramattha reality just does not work. I liken it to my training as a nurse in the western medical modality and then my uncompleted training as an acupunturist in traditional Chinese medicine. These 2 modalities both treat the ills of people but they are completely different and it was impossible to try and use one type to fix the diagnosis given by the other type - We live in the conventional world and therefore do conventional things, but the real truth is that this conventional world is just a bubble, or is that many bubbles constantly bursting...... Patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear All, > > Listening to the recently added sessions with Kh. Sujin, 2007-01-13- a, > the questioner is referring to his house and the discussion is of the > existence of the house. One can hear the very oft discussed dilemma > in relation to what are being construed as a 'conventional' and a > 'paramattha aspect' or 'sense' or 'point of view'. .....snip..... > Kh. S: "So just understand that correctly that's all. You can think > about your house, about everything, but there is understanding that > it's only thinking. No permanent 'I' who is still there but it's only > a moment of conditioned thought or idea or thinking arising and > falling away." > > Scott: I'm thinking that this shows a common misunderstanding, that > is, the construing of two separate points of view of the conventional > and the paramattha. This then leads to thinking and wrestling with > how to justify these two points of view, how to reconcile the one with > the other. > > I think, rather, that there is only one, that is, at the base of it > all. That, essentially, or actually, there are only paramattha > dhammas. As Kh. Sujin seems to point out, this needs to be understood > correctly and then one doesn't find it confusing to think about a > house. There are only paramattha dhammas, no matter what the level of > development pa~n~naa attains to. The greater the strength of pa~n~naa > the more it is known that there are and always have been just > paramattha dhammas. > > I'm thinking about this while sitting in my house. Which is mine (and > the bank's). > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #96309 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Greetings - na vattabba sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, You ask about some very subtle points, such as on na vattabba and nimitta. --- On Sun, 1/3/09, szmicio wrote: >>S: All conditioned dhammas have a nimitta, an impression. When the seeing-consciousness (or other dhamma) appears to the mind-door cittas, it is a nimitta, a 'duplicate' of the reality of seeing consciousness itself which appears and the characteristic of that nama can be known. 'Na vattabbaaramma. naa' means 'cannot be classified'. It is not the actual nama, seeing consciousness, because that has fallen away. However, it is not a concept of seeing consciousness either. It is the reality 'by way of na vattabba'. This is a very techncal point, but it can be useful to clear up doubts. ... >L: 'Na vattabbaaramma. naa', I know this from Dispeller 203. But what do you mean here by saying it? Does it mean that nimitta is also 'Na vattabbaaramma. na'. ... S: Yes, the nimitta of a reality or a concept. ... >In dispeller there was said the only object which is 'na vattabbaaramma. naa' are concepts. 'na vattabba' means what should not be spoken. So 'Na vattabbaaramma. naa' means objects that shouldnt be spoken? Shouldnt be classified? cannot be classified? Could you explain this pali term? .... S: I understand it to mean cannot be classified or the object which cannot be so named,literally 'not to be said to be' or 'not to be so spoken of', so we have to read the text very carefully. [My Pali knowledge isn't up to the task, but I wonder if "....pa~n~natti.m paccavekkha.nakaale navattabbaaramma.naati" can refer to the reviewing of the paths, fruition and nibbaana, suggesting that at the time of such reviewing, it cannot be said to have such objects as pa~n~natti?]. I understand the term na vattabbaaramma.naa is used in the commentaries with regard to paccavekhana or reviewing consciousness after the lokuttara cittas which have experienced nibbana have fallen away. You've asked about this before and as I wrote once: "The succeeding paccavekkhana cittas experience and review the path factors, nibbana, frution consciousness, the defilements eradicated and so on. None of this is by thinking but by direct realization. The path factors, nibbana and so on are paramattha dhammas experienced as such, by way of "na vatabba". The same principle applies to sense door realities when experienced by the succeeding mind door process. The characteristics of the paramattha dhammas can be known precisely, but by way of na-vatabba objects. Conversely the nimitta or concepts experienced by jhana cittas are concepts experienced by way of na-vatabba objects, similarly representing concepts of other objects. In fact all concepts can be classified in this way. So we have both paramattha dhammas and concepts classified by way of unclassifiable objects, as I understand it. Metta, Sarah >> S: Were you able to find the 'Useful Posts'? >L: U mean Useful Posts from Files section? ... S: Yes! I think you'll find them helpful if your computer is up to using the index and being able to scroll and use the highlighted numbers. ======== #96310 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- On Mon, 2/3/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: N: That is very kind of you, but I think that is the same one as you gave already in Bgk? ... S: No, not the same. They couldn't find the KK Jan 07 master tape we'd left at the foundation to make a copy, so this is that one plus the very recent Bkk Jan 07. Lodewijk asks many detailed questions on it and said he'd like a copy, I thought. ... >You suggested a new series commenced by Ann or Lodewijk. ... S: Actually, I was suggesting Scott just continue to add more mini-transcripts with his own helpful comments and thought it was also an idea for Ann who'd mentioned a series before. The reference to Lodewijk was just because of the joke Ann and he had when she suggested he write a message everytime she did, so they'd encourage each other. Rob K also joined in thought he could match that rate! No pressure for anyone to do anything. ... >But what about Larry, he likes new series. Where is he? I miss him. ... S: Yes, good idea! Larry, perhaps you can think of a very simple series, such as from one of the wheel publications - a sutta with commentary notes already given. ... >I read to Lodewijk snippets from transcriptions of our recent trip. Jon asked: normal life: the most difficult thing. I said to Lodewijk that I was wondering why Jon asked this. ... S: We'll have to wait for Jon to elaborate on this himeself. He may have been partly joking, I forget. ... >Then Lodewijk gave ma a nice summing up of all his daily actions and how distracting he finds these. A very nice reminder for me, and I was explaining that it does not matter when there are distractions. If it matters it is self who wants to change his life. ... S: Yes, always 'distractions' when there's ignorance. When there's awareness, nothing's a distraction, regardless of the conventional appearance. Remember the reminder in the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta about awareness when distracted? ... >Waiting in the eyedoctor's waiting room he asked me why it is so important to know the difference between nama and rupa. I explained that it is so basic, otherwise no precise understanding of any reality. When they are together we take them for self. ... S: Yes, impossible to understand anatta when there isn't a clear understanding of the distinction. Otherwise always my seeing, my distractions, my house, my writing and so on. Wonderful that even at the doctor's you're discussing dhamma together! I do hope you're both well rested now from your trip. My mother feels so much better after the sunny break and her hands and feet are almost fully recovered from their chillblains. Metta, Sarah ======== #96311 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, A very moving account: --- On Fri, 27/2/09, Scott wrote: >"69. He came to the Cittalapabbata Monastery. After he had stayed there for four months he lay down thinking, 'In the morning I depart'. Then a deity living in a ma.nila tree at the end of the walk sat down on a step of the stair and burst into tears. The elder asked, 'Who is that?' - 'It is I, Ma.niliyaa, venerable sir.' - 'What are you weeping for?' - 'Because you are going away.' - 'What good does my living here do you?' - 'Venerable sir, as long as you live here non-human beings treat each other kindly. Now when you are gone, they will start quarrels and loose talk.' The elder said, 'If my living here makes you live at peace, that is good', and so he stayed there another four months. Then he again thought of leaving, but the deity wept as before. And so the elder lived on there, and it was there that he attained nibbaana. This is how a bhikkhu who abides in lovingkindness is dear to non-human beings." ... S: Not a mention of 'focus', but plenty of metta in action, dear to those around. And nibbana can be 'attained' anywhere, given the right understanding leading towards such attainment... Metta, Sarah ======== #96312 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] attention to Larry: Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 2-mrt-2009, om 9:17 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > But what about Larry, he likes new series. Where is he? I miss him. > ... > S: Yes, good idea! Larry, perhaps you can think of a very simple > series, such as from one of the wheel publications - a sutta with > commentary notes already given. ------ N: That would be good. I hope he is in good health. Nina. #96313 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 4:18 am Subject: Re: An Assumption of Two Points of View. scottduncan2 Dear Azita, Thanks for the reply: S: "If paramattha dhammas are contemplated often enuff, and I'm talking just thinking here:-) surely the thoughts can arise more often to remind us that what we take for real in conventional realities is a wrong 'take'" Scott: I think it is possible, given conditions. My own experience with learning of this particular aspect of the Dhamma (much earlier in my still brief contact with the Dhamma) was confirming of how conditions need to be just so. I found that the idea, considered for the first time, that there *is* a difference between conventional thinking and reality was exciting - just correct. And I've failed to be able to articulate it to anyone who doesn't see it as I do ever since.:-) It's not transferable. A: "Trying to fit conventional reality into paramattha reality just does not work. We live in the conventional world and therefore do conventional things, but the real truth is that this conventional world is just a bubble, or is that many bubbles constantly bursting......" Scott: I like your analogy of the two modes of healing. And a bubble bursting is a good way to describe how it felt to learn that there are only paramattha dhammas. And I still think about houses and banks. Sincerely, Scott. #96314 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 4:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 Dear Rob Ep. and Jon, Regarding: R: "Then what constitutes right effort?" Scott: Here's a bit from the latest sessions, while you continue the discussion (2007-01-a.mp3; - Jon, you'll likely remember this): Jon: "...Another text that could be mentioned in this regard is the one about the four right efforts. People have difficulty reconciling that too because it says, 'There is the case where a monk puts forth effort, exerts himself, arouses himself, for the sake of getting rid of the ( ) that is there and so forth. Can you say a few words about how these texts are to be read also? Kh. S: "Who is that effort?" Jon: "It says, 'A monk'." Kh. S: "Effort is effort. No matter whenever it arises it performs its function. So while one is reading ti-pitaka it depends on [whether] one reads with one's own understanding, one's own idea, one's own inclination, or just the understanding of reality which is taught by the One That Knows It Very Clearly - completely. For example, if we are reading about effort, we forget about effort as effort. We think that someone there, tries so hard - all four [efforts], see? But even effort right now is not known yet. So how can we know other functions - the four functions of effort without knowing effort?" Jon: "To start with, do we know there is effort right now? Do the suttas tell us there is effort right now?" Kh. S: "Even [if] we don't name it or call it 'effort', do you ever try?" Jon: "Yes." Kh. S: "And what you like to call that thing 'something which tries'? Depending - " Jon: "We can call it 'effort' if there's trying but often there's not trying -" Kh. S: "That is it...If we don't study we cannot know at all that Buddha just explained each citta as it is. How [there are] many cetasikas arising with each particular one...It seems like only seeing keeps on staying - no arising or falling at all. While there are so many cittas in between - unknown all the time. So without understanding citta yet, what about the understanding of effort as just effort?" Sincerely, Scott. #96315 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. nilovg Dear Scott, a good quote. I just heard: when we read in the Tipitaka about a person doing this or that we should not forget that there is citta and cetasikas taking different actions. Citta and cetasikas are real, the person is just a description. Nina. Op 2-mrt-2009, om 13:48 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > Kh. S: "That is it...If we don't study we cannot know at all that > Buddha just explained each citta as it is. How [there are] many > cetasikas arising with each particular one...It seems like only seeing > keeps on staying - no arising or falling at all. While there are so > many cittas in between - unknown all the time. So without > understanding citta yet, what about the understanding of effort as > just effort?" #96316 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 8:05 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: "I just heard: when we read in the Tipitaka about a person doing this or that we should not forget that there is citta and cetasikas taking different actions. Citta and cetasikas are real, the person is just a description." Scott: I read it this way. I consider, when reading about this or that monk, what are the cittas and cetasikas being described? I think about the conditions that might be present for these to arise. I consider the conditions that would need to be present for these dhammas to arise again and again. I consider that effort arises with citta. I consider that it depends on whether a given citta is wholesome or unwholesome whether this effort, adding it's flavour to the moment and serving as condition for the other dhammas, is Right or Wrong. Sincerely, Scott. #96318 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 8:05 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 oops #96319 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 8:15 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (51-53) nilovg sutta 51:Walshe: DN 33.1.10(51) 'Three more kinds of concentration: on emptiness, the "signless", desireless (su~n~nato samaadhi, animitto samaadhi, appa.nihito samaadhi). -------- N: First a general explanation: Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Ch 5: (end Survey quote). ---------- N: The Co and subco elaborate on these aspects. As to liberation by realizing emptiness, the Co states that vipassanaa in this case is called su~n~nataa, it is empty of ‘mine’, because of the disappearance of the defilements that make for non- emptiness. Samaadhi accompanying maggacitta and samaadhi accompanying phalacitta (fruition, the result of maggacitta) are called su~n~nato. As to being liberated by realizing impermanence, in this case vipassanaa is called animitta, because there is the absence of the defilements that make for the sign of permanence (nimitta kaaraka). Samaadhi accompanying maggacitta and samaadhi accompanying phalacitta are called animitta. The Subco quotes from the Suttanipaata, verse 342: ‘And develop the signless, (and) cast out the latent tendency to conceit. Then by the full understanding of conceit you will wander, stilled.’ As to being liberated by realizing dukkha, vipassanaa is called appa.nihita, desirelessness, because there is the absence of the defilements that make for desire. This is Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. nilovg Dear Scott, It is good you emphasize conditions, it helps others to have less the inclination to holding on to 'person', 'person'. Nina. Op 2-mrt-2009, om 17:05 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > Scott: I read it this way. I consider, when reading about this or > that monk, what are the cittas and cetasikas being described? I > think about the conditions that might be present for these to > arise. I consider the conditions that would need to be present for > these dhammas to arise again and again. I consider that effort > arises with citta. I consider that it depends on whether a given > citta is wholesome or unwholesome whether this effort, adding it's > flavour to the moment and serving as condition for the other > dhammas, is Right or Wrong. #96321 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "Not a mention of 'focus', but plenty of metta in action, dear to those around. And nibbana can be 'attained' anywhere, given the right understanding leading towards such attainment..." Scott: Yeah, a very cool story. Dear to those one doesn't even know are around, as the story seems to have it. And, as you say, no mention of this one deliberately putting effort to his 'pracitise' of mettaa - just mettaa. There's no forcing mettaa - but it does seem so good to have more of the wanting of which is just being hungry. Sincerely, Scott. #96322 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 8:08 pm Subject: Does This Come from K Sujin? Re: Response to Robert E. 3 sukinderpal Dear Suan, I'm behind in my reading, this is why I couldn't respond earlier. =========== > Sukin wrote: > > "It was as Ken has pointed out, a reference to what is done in the > name of practice by most Buddhists today, at home and in meditation > retreats and which amounts to being nothing more than rite and > ritual." > > Suan replies: > > Thank you, Sukin, for your answer. S: You are welcome. ========== Suan: > Now, please kindly clarify and specify the type of meditation > regarded by you as nothing more than rite and ritual being practiced > by most Buddhists today at home and in meditation retreats. > > For example, are you referring to meditation retreats in Thailand or > in the US or in Australia or in India? > > Can you name them as meditation retreats are usually organised by > the followers of famous monks and lay instructors? > > To give you a clue about the names of meditation retreats such as > those originated in Myanmar, there are Mahaasii meditation retreats, > Sayagyi S N Goenka's Vipassanaa meditation retreats and so on. S: I know only a few of these and that too, not in detail except for maybe one or two. My criticism is based on general principles; therefore I don't think that I need to specify which ones. But if you would like to discuss any particular one out of these, one that you see as being `right' without doubt, I'll be happy to do it. ========= > Sukin wrote: > > "If right understanding were to arise while meditating, this would > be due to past accumulated right understanding, including of the > pariyatti level, in other words it would arise in spite of the > activity and not as a result of it." > > Suan asks: > > In the above passage, shall we rephrase the clause `while > meditating' as `while performing rite and ritual' or `while doing > the wrong meditation' in light of your reply? S: You may do so if it helps to put things in perspective. ========= Suan: > And, shall we rephrase `right understanding' as `right view > (sammaadi.t.thi)'? S: Certainly, since it is the same thing in this context. ========= Suan: > Now, Sukin, please pay attention to my next questions and answer > them carefully. S: I'll try. ;-) ========= Suan: > Did you state that right view can arise while doing the wrong > meditation? S: Right View can arise at any time, provided that prior to that, the Dhamma has been heard and pariyatti understanding has been conditioned to arise, in that life that is. Indeed wrong view / meditation must be recognized as such and this can happen only with the arising of some level of right view. ========= Suan: > And did you state that this right view was due to right view > accumulated in the past life? S: Yes, but there must also have been instances of Right View arising in this particular life. Even though these may not have been enough initially to see through the wrong practice, and when it did happen at some point, this must be due to something acting as natural decisive support condition. ========= Suan: > And, did you state that this practitioner of wrong meditation might > also have paraiyatti level right view? S: To some extent, yes. Otherwise the wrong practice could never have been seen as wrong during the time that it was being followed. ========= Suan: > And, did you differentiate between past-life-influenced right view > and pariyatti level right view? S: I don't understand the comparison. My understanding of the accumulation and development of Right View is that this takes uncountable lifetimes before it can reach maturation. This means that Pariyatti understanding itself needs to develop on and on from one life to another, the same with Patipatti. Neither of these however can arise during any given lifetime if in that life the Dhamma has not been heard. Upon hearing the Dhamma as explained in a way which is right enough for the individual, it is pariyatti which arise at first. This may instantly condition patipatti, otherwise it accumulates such that one needs to hear more before this can happen. ========== Suan: > Thanking you in advance. S: I hope I have not disappointed. Metta, Sukin #96323 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 10:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi lbidd2 Hi Nina and Sarah, S: "Larry, perhaps you can think of a very simple series, such as from one of the wheel publications - a sutta with commentary notes already given." L: Sorry, my mind's a blank, nothing there. Thoughts come and go but they don't form anything. Seems like everything has been said, but something is missing. Maybe it's insight that is missing :-)) Larry #96324 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 12:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: K.Sujin on meditation.... and confrontation. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Of course, conditions and accumulations being what they are, someone may pick it up and instead of reading it in the "correct kusala way" may, in a fit of wrong view or rage, throw it out of the > window or at the accidental placer..... I hadn't thought of that; I will have to think carefully about where to place such a heavy and potentially dangerous book. But truthfully, I think the chances are good that it will be used in a more appropriate way. And thank you! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #96325 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 1:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Larry: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi nilovg Hi Larry, I am glad to hear from you, because I was afraid you were sick. I became really worried about you. Do not mind such blank thoughts, they are conditioned. They are also realities. Kh Sujin would say: they are just dhammas. We cannot change what has arisen already, and they go immediately. I found that it helps to know: it is gone, it is gone, instead of worrying about this or that reality. But you said: thoughts come and go, how true. Lodewijk said that he at times has the same experience, so it is not uncommon. It can also be conditioned by rupa, maybe bodily condition, tiredness. You are quite right: insight is missing. But there are conditions for its arising. Listening, considering, pariyatti conditions pa.ti patti, but we do not know when. That is why there are only conditioned realities in our life. We can learn from such experiences. BTW when my book on rupas has arrived I can send you a copy to your address you gave to me before. Best wishes, Nina. Op 3-mrt-2009, om 7:33 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > L: Sorry, my mind's a blank, nothing there. Thoughts come and go but > they don't form anything. Seems like everything has been said, but > something is missing. Maybe it's insight that is missing :-)) #96326 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visudhimagga Chapter VIII [Mindfulness of death] sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, I'm not sure anyone replied to you on the following, re the kinds of death - so a few reflections... --- On Fri, 27/2/09, szmicio wrote: >L: There are 3 kinds of death: ... S: Actually the text refers to 4 kinds. From CMA, a summary: "Aayukkhayena, kammakkhayena, ubhayakkhayena, upacchedakakammunaa caa ti catudhaa mara.n' uppatti naama." "The advent of death is fourfold, namely: i)through the expiration of the life-span; ii)through the expiration of the (productive) kammic force; iii) through the (simultaneous) expiration of both, and iv) through (the intervention of) a destructive kamma. ... L:> 1)As to exhaustion of merit >"death throught exhaustion of merit is a term for the kind of death that comes about owing to the result of [former] rebirth- producing kamma's having finished ripening although favourable conditions for prolonging the continuity of a life span may be still present." >L: I need some short comments on it. rebirth-producing kamma means kamma which arises shortly before cuti-citta? ... S: Yes, I assume it refers to this kamma which arose at the end of the last life-span and which conditions rebirth *and subsequent* vipaka and kammaja-rupas, such as the sense-bases. .... L: "although favourable conditions for prolonging the continuity of life span may be still present" - what does it mean? ... S: I assume it means that this occurs even though other supportive conditions are in place that condition the prologation of life, such as nutriment, cittas, temperature and so on. For example, someone might be well-nourished and have the will to live, but there just isn't the past kusala kamma for life to continue. .... L: >2)AS to exhaustion of a life span >"Death through exhaustion of a life span is a term for the kind of death that comes about owing to the exhaustion of the normal life span of men of today, which measures only a century owing to want of such excellence in destiny [as deities have] or in time [as there is at the beginning of an aeon] or in nutriment [as the Uttarakurus and so have on]." >L: Does it mean that death comes because of old age or starvation? ... S: Because of old age and the natural limit of life in a realm. In other words, due to natural causes. ... >3)At to kamma capable of interrupt present life span. >L: Where can I find anything about kammas decribed here? ... S: As I recall, you can find a lot more in Sammohavinodanii. Also, you'll be able to read the detail in CMA soon - this is just a summary from the commentaries. From the CMA on the last one, the Guide section to #34, Ch V: "Through (the intervention of) a destrcutive kamma: this is a term for the death that occurs when a powerful destructive kamma cuts off the force of the rebirth-generating kamma even before the expiration of the life-span. The first three types of death are known as timely death (kaalamara.na), the last as untimely death (akaalamara.na). An oil lamp, for example, may be extinguished due to the exhaustion of the wick, the exhaustion of the oil, the simultaneous exhaustion of both, or some extraneous cause, like a gust of wind." S: I always appreciate this last analogy - we never know when there may be a gust of wind. In the end, however, these are all conventional descriptions and there are only ever cittas, cetasikas and rupas - one citta at a time regardless of the circumstances. Metta, Sarah ======= #96327 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- On Mon, 2/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >> S: "A skillful device" without any misunderstanding by him or Ananda that any bhavana, any 'meditation' , any dhammas whatsoever (apart from nibbana, of course) could arise by anything other than conditions. The Buddha could not make or force Ananda to develop greater wisdom and nor could Ananda do such. However, the hearing of the Teachings, the emphasis on the urgency of such development, may be a condition for such wisdom to arise. ... R:> Well perhaps we will all give and receive directives from now on with the idea that they are just part of the current conditions and things will happen as they do. I know that's the case when I tell my daughter what to do. Sometimes she does, and sometimes she doesn't. It's a matter of chance. :-) ... S: :-). Or rather, a matter of what conditions lead to at such a time:-). In another post yesterday, I referred to how it's not just a matter of having the helpful text on the table or even listening to the Buddha. It all comes back to the wise attention (yoniso manasikaara) at such times or reading or listening in order for there to be suta-maya pa~n~naa (understanding based on listening) and cinta-maya pa~n~naa (understanding based on considering), leading to bhaavanaa-maya pa~n~naa(understanding based on development) arise. Back to Ananda, from the Enlightenment Chapter in the commentary to the Udana (Masefield transl., p 31): "...for, in the present case, it is those particular ways of hearing (sutassa), pierced by him himself, that are referred back to by way of (the word) 'eva.m' by the venerable Aananda, it being thereby that his non-confusion is elucidated. For one who is confused is not capable of piercing (the present sutta's) diverse nature (naanappakaara)......For the one for whom that was (once) heard has (since) become forgotten does not claim, after an interval of time, that (such) was heard by him (mayaa suta.m). Hence, there is, through that non-confusion, proof of his insight; or else there is, through the insight generated, due to an absence of confusion, at the time of hearing, proof of insight at a time subsequent thereto - likewise, through non-forgetfulness, proof of mindfulness." And a little later... "...the individual whose mind is distracted, even upon being spoken to when all other (conditions) have been satisfied, states "(Such) was not heard by me, please state it again". I'm sure the last comment is familiar to us all! Metta, Sarah ======== #96328 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation sarahprocter... Dear Rob Ep & all, --- On Mon, 2/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >> Sarah: I would phrase the last comment a little differently and suggest the monk is skilled in the development of samatha with breath as object. ... R:> I would ask, how did the monk become skilled in samatha with breath as object? .... S: By conditions for such - primarily through right understanding of the this kind of samatha bhavana. ... >And even if he is skilled, is this not still a specific object of meditation with the understanding that it is further developing samatha or vipassana? How is it not? ... S: The development of vipassana is the understanding with insight of whatever dhamma, whatever *reality* is experienced at the present moment. This is the teaching of the Buddha - the understanding of paramattha dhammas as anicca, dukkha and anatta, regardless of what object is experienced. There were conditions for those monks to develop samatha to the highest levels even before hearing the Buddha's teachings. Regardless of such attainments of jhana, without directly penetrating the 4 Noble Truths and understanding the dhammas as inherently unsatisfactory and leading on to more births in samsara, there could be no insight or attainment of enlightenment. .... R:> If you say "It is natural to him as this is his daily life," I would ask "Why is it his daily life? Is it not his daily life because the monks have been instructed from Day 1 to practice in just this way? .... S: I would say it was because of the extraordinary conditions at the time for such high levels of kusala attainments in India. There were good reasons why the bodhisatta was born in such a place at such time. People were 'ripe' to hear the teachings and had accumulated various kinds of wisdom and other kusala for aeons. ... >Why else would this practice be the norm in the monastery? It is not for health, it is not by accident, it is because they have been instructed to do so by the Buddha. .... S: The Buddha praised this high form of kusala, but never suggested it was suitable for everyone and clearly pointed out the Middle Way and the 4 NT in the first sutta to those who had attained the highest jhanas. Regardless of whether there had been any samatha development or not, the Buddha pointed to the development of satipatthana as being the one path. ... >Even if this happened quite a while back and is now a taken-for-granted tradition, the reason is still that they all believed and still believe that this practice of following the breath as object facilitates the Buddha's path, and eventually they became skilled at it. ... S: Again, I would ask if this is so, why all the Buddha's followers were not encouraged to develop samatha with breath as object? If we are interested in understanding the reality appearing at the present moment, regardless of whether the reality is a rupa or nama, what is the significance of focussing on the breath? Metta, Sarah ======== #96329 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 5:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. jonoabb Hi Robert E > > These are the 2 "extremes" the Buddha spoke about: ... > > > > The path taught by the Buddha is neither of these. > > Well this gets into a good area. So I will ask you: since doing > nothing is an extreme as well, how does one *not* leave it entirely to > events? What are the correct ways of taking action, and how does this > *not* contradict the idea that there is no one to act or to have any > volition whatsoever? If we have an interest in the way things truly are, there will naturally be reflection on this subject, whether in the context of what has been read, what has been discussed, or what has come up for whatever other reason. Having the teachings explained to us as they are meant to be understood would of course make a considerable difference to the quality of that reflection. The value of exposure to the teachings correctly explained for us, as a support for useful reflection, cannot be overemphasised. Without that exposure there are only our own less-than-perfect views to go on, and these are bound to lead us to much wrong reflection. But with the benefit of such input, and an inherent interest in the subject matter, there will be more useful reflection, and perhaps some direct understanding of presently arising dhammas, occurring during the course of the day. So it is neither a matter of taking some kind of action, nor of things being left entirely to events. It's a matter of the right conditions being in place, so that one thing leads to another (at a time and in circumstances that cannot be predicted nor influenced). Hoping this makes sense. Jon #96330 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 5:13 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. jonoabb Hi Robert E > > It is doing something in the belief that (and for the reason that) > > the doing of that thing, properly done, constitutes or facilitates > > the development of understanding. > > So reading sutta or abhidhamma or coms does not directly facilitate > the path? And if it is indirect, why isn't it equally kusala to > meditate with the idea that it may indirectly facilitate the path? The distinction is between something that is done *as a practice* and something that, although done for a purpose, is not done as a practice. This is a matter of the mind state of the person, more so than of the nature of the activity. If I'm not mistaken, people who meditate generally regard that as their "practice". There are other activities also, such as chanting mantras, prostrations, burning incense, etc, that are known to be done as a "practice", but which could also be done for other reasons. As I say, it comes down to the individual rather than the kind of activity. > Clearly for certain meditators, Buddha believed that practicing > anapanasati *would* facilitate their path, and described the > conditions under which this might take place. The meditators the > Buddha addressed in the anapanasati sutta weren't meditating just for > health benefits, but as a facilitation of the path. I have a different understanding of the Anapanasati Sutta ;-)) Would you be interested in posting the passage you rely on for the above paragraph (namely that the practice of anapanasati was given by the Buddha as a means of facilitating the path), so that we could discuss further? Jon #96331 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 5:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. jonoabb Hi Robert E > > This does not make the doing of any and all intentional action wrong > > practice; but it does I think mean that action done in the belief > > that doing that particular form of action constitutes the development > > of the path would be wrong practice. > > Then what constitutes right effort? As I think you will appreciate, the Buddha's teaching is a teaching about the development of the understanding of dhammas. In some suttas the Buddha spoke about all dhammas, and we find them classified in many different ways, for example, as dhatus, as ayatanas, as khandhas, as the 4 foundations (of mindfulness),and so on. In other suttas he spoke about individual or selected groups of dhammas. Examples would be the teaching on the Noble Eightfold Path, on the hindrances, on the factors of enlightenment, etc. The teaching on right effort (samma-vayama) concerns one particular dhamma, the mental factor of viriya when it accompanies a kusala moment of consciousness. This mental factor is included in the (sutta) teachings on the faculties (indriya), the path factors (maggangaani), the powers (baala), the predominants (adhipati), the supreme efforts (sammappadhaana), the means to accomplishment (idhipaadaa) and the factors of enlightenment (bhojjangaa). So right effort is the effort that accompanies a moment of kusala consciousness. It is not "making an effort" to do something as that is conventionally understood (it would be safe to assume that such effort was mostly akusala). I liked the way it was put by A Sujin in the recent talks, as quoted for us by Scott in his reply to you: "Effort is effort" (meaning that it's just the factor/element of effort, an impersonal dhamma). Jon #96332 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 5:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi jonoabb Hi Nina > I read to Lodewijk snippets from transcriptions of our recent trip. > Jon asked: normal life: the most difficult thing. I said to Lodewijk > that I was wondering why Jon asked this. I wondered the same thing when I saw your transcription ;-)). I have no recollection of that particular comment (perhaps when I hear the recording I will remember!). Appreciated your series from the talks. Jon #96333 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- On Tue, 3/3/09, LBIDD@... wrote: >L: Sorry, my mind's a blank, nothing there. Thoughts come and go but they don't form anything. Seems like everything has been said, but something is missing. Maybe it's insight that is missing :-)) ... S: Well thanks for popping in to tell us - at least Nina won't need to worry about you now! If you feel like a chance, have you tried listening to the edited recordings from the discussions we had in Thailand in Jan 07? Why not listen to a part and give us your comments, perhaps transcribing a few lines to discuss further? http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ (under the archives) A few people are now listening to the last day of this set in Bangkok if you'd like to join in the discussions, such as on Scott's 'House' post #96278. You'll also know many of the participants from DSG. In any case, best wishes and speak more later! Sarah =========== #96334 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 7:44 am Subject: akusala citta szmicio dear friends What is characteristic of akusala citta? Is akusala a good object to vipassana? Even listening and reading Dhamma cannot stop akusala to arise. what is the characteristic of domanassa? Best Wishes Lukas #96335 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 8:07 am Subject: Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi szmicio Dear friends 1)What is atta-sa~n~na? 2)What is the function of atta-sa~n~na in the process of taking defilments for ourselfes? 3)Does firm intellectual understanding helps eradicate atta-sa~n~na? 4)What is the function of moha in the process of taking defilments for ourselfes? 5)What is function of moha in the process of seeing? Does moha condition seeing-consiousness as a latent tendency? In paticcasamupada moha conditions everything, from sankhara to jati-marana. Best Wishes Lukas #96336 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 8:39 am Subject: pasada-rupas as dhammaaramma.na szmicio dear friends One of the dhammaaramma.na are pasada-rupas. They are gross not subtle, near not far. In javana-process of mind-door there can be understanding of them. But there cannot be understanding of them in the sense-door processes, why? because it can have only 5 sense-consiousnes as its object? when pasada-rupa is dhammaaramma.na, does it mean that is an object of citta? Can pa~n~na experience pasada-rupa which is past,for example that has fallen away 3 years ago? When pa~n~na arises and has citta as an object, it's cittanupassana and when pa~n~na has object of citta as its object then it is dhammanupassana, isnt it? Best wishes Lukas #96337 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 12:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation epsteinrob HI Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep & all, > > --- On Mon, 2/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > > >> Sarah: I would phrase the last comment a little differently and > suggest the monk is skilled in the development of samatha with breath > as object. > ... > R:> I would ask, how did the monk become skilled in samatha with breath as > object? > .... > S: By conditions for such - primarily through right understanding of the this kind of samatha bhavana. Well if right understanding of this form of samatha can include doing it as a "correct object of samatha bhavana," doesn't that mean that under the right conditions choosing a particular object of samatha *can* be right view? This seems in appearance to contradict the idea that a particular object choice is *always* wrong view by the nature of making a choice. > ... > >And even if he is skilled, is this not still a specific > object of meditation with the understanding that it is further > developing samatha or vipassana? How is it not? > ... > S: The development of vipassana is the understanding with insight of whatever dhamma, whatever *reality* is experienced at the present moment. This is the teaching of the Buddha - the understanding of paramattha dhammas as anicca, dukkha and anatta, regardless of what object is experienced. There were conditions for those monks to develop samatha to the highest levels even before hearing the Buddha's teachings. Regardless of such attainments of jhana, without directly penetrating the 4 Noble Truths and understanding the dhammas as inherently unsatisfactory and leading on to more births in samsara, there could be no insight or attainment of enlightenment. So you are making a definite distinction between having a particular object of practice for samatha, as opposed to Buddhist vipassana, which should never have a chosen object? Corrolary question: Is development of samatha necessary to the path? > .... > R:> If you say "It is natural to him as this is his daily life," I would > ask "Why is it his daily life? Is it not his daily life because the > monks have been instructed from Day 1 to practice in just this way? > .... > S: I would say it was because of the extraordinary conditions at the time for such high levels of kusala attainments in India. There were good reasons why the bodhisatta was born in such a place at such time. People were 'ripe' to hear the teachings and had accumulated various kinds of wisdom and other kusala for aeons. What if someone were to pop up here in this day and age, as rare as you might think it to be, and say "Samatha bhavana is natural to me - I have been practicing for aeons and I have come to complete the path in this way, as the ancients did." Would this be a possibility, or impossible to happen? > ... > >Why else would this practice be the norm in the monastery? It is not > for health, it is not by accident, it is because they have been > instructed to do so by the Buddha. > .... > S: The Buddha praised this high form of kusala, but never suggested it was suitable for everyone and clearly pointed out the Middle Way and the 4 NT in the first sutta to those who had attained the highest jhanas. Regardless of whether there had been any samatha development or not, the Buddha pointed to the development of satipatthana as being the one path. So would you say that while samatha bhavana through breath is a high kusala attainment, that it is neither absolutely necessary, nor in any case sufficient, as a part of the path? Corrolary question: Would you say that although the kusala attainment of samatha is not an absolute part of the path, that it will add to the kusala conditions for being able to attain the path, because all kusala accumulations will add to this potential, even if they are not strictly "path-related kusala?" > ... > >Even if this happened quite a > while back and is now a taken-for-granted tradition, the reason is > still that they all believed and still believe that this practice of > following the breath as object facilitates the Buddha's path, and > eventually they became skilled at it. > ... > S: Again, I would ask if this is so, why all the Buddha's followers were not encouraged to develop samatha with breath as object? Perhaps it is an important way for following the path, but as you say, not suitable for everyone. I would not be closed off to the possibility that there were other skillful methods for other temperaments, that there is only one path, but there is more than one skillful method of engaging with the path. Just as some would have the inclination to be a monk, and some a householder, some enjoy charitable works and others writing a book exploring the Dhamma, there may be many ways of engaging with the teachings. I am leaving aside the possibilities that either meditation is or isn't a necessary part of the path for the moment, or that samatha and/or vipassana "practices" are or aren't correct for someone of the "right conditions and temperament." Some people are going to sit, however, and take to meditation like a duck to water. Others are going to thrive on sutta study, possibly without having to ask themselves "why." In which case, if a person does what is natural to them, that may be their way of engaging with the path, as long as it is not a wrong involvement, and they are not subject to wrong view. > If we are interested in understanding the reality appearing at the present moment, regardless of whether the reality is a rupa or nama, what is the significance of focussing on the breath? The significance it would have would be if, as in samatha bhavana, vipassana bhavana were heightened or increased by focusing on breath as object and spending time in a focussed activity in which discerning arising dhammas is the object of the activity. I know your philosophy would dictate that this would be the result of wrong view, but if it is a correct activity, that is what it would be for. Just as samatha bhavana with breath as object might be the appropriate practice for some people, vipassana bhavana might too. One gets better at practicing the piano by practicing it, not by refraining from practice. One's gets more focus, more discernment, more concentration when one practices focusing and concentrating on something. There is no inherent reason -- other than the argument that it is wrong view because it assumes a "doer," that focussing on the moment with the purpose of discerning its nature would not exercise that muscle just as much as any other practice. In any case, that is what would be the argument, if it were not subject to 'wrong view,' and that I guess is the question. If I were a biologist and I said I want to find out as much as I can about the structure of the flora and fauna around here and I went out into the woods and examined this leaf and that plant and looked at the structure and the texture and the way it grows, I would become more and more familiar with it. The ordinary model of meditation would be that by getting rid of distractions and focusing the mind on whatever arises with breath relaxed and mind alert, that one will become more familiar with the nature of the moment and that this understanding will accumulate. If one did not have the argument that this is "wrong view" because it assumes a self is doing this organized activity - which I don't think is necessarily so - then I can't see why this wouldn't lead to increased discernment through doing this activity. Even if it is true, as I agree, that insight and panna cannot be forced to arise by willing them to arise, and that they come by conditions, I am setting up a situation where those conditions may arise. If I go to the dog park every day, I am likely to see quite a few dogs, and get more familiar with them as I am around them. Or something like that. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #96338 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > > > These are the 2 "extremes" the Buddha spoke about: ... > > > > > > The path taught by the Buddha is neither of these. > > > > Well this gets into a good area. So I will ask you: since doing > > nothing is an extreme as well, how does one *not* leave it entirely > to > > events? What are the correct ways of taking action, and how does > this > > *not* contradict the idea that there is no one to act or to have any > > volition whatsoever? > > If we have an interest in the way things truly are, there will > naturally be reflection on this subject, whether in the context of > what has been read, what has been discussed, or what has come up for > whatever other reason. > > Having the teachings explained to us as they are meant to be > understood would of course make a considerable difference to the > quality of that reflection. > > The value of exposure to the teachings correctly explained for us, as > a support for useful reflection, cannot be overemphasised. Without > that exposure there are only our own less-than-perfect views to go > on, and these are bound to lead us to much wrong reflection. > > But with the benefit of such input, and an inherent interest in the > subject matter, there will be more useful reflection, and perhaps > some direct understanding of presently arising dhammas, occurring > during the course of the day. > > So it is neither a matter of taking some kind of action, nor of > things being left entirely to events. It's a matter of the right > conditions being in place, so that one thing leads to another (at a > time and in circumstances that cannot be predicted nor influenced). > > Hoping this makes sense. > > Jon Yes, this makes a lot of sense, and I am even attracted to the idea of allowing things to happen naturally while having a sort of gentle engagement with those things that may have a positive influence. There are two things however that bother me in this scenario: 1/ What if one is naturally inclined to engage with bhavana through anapanasati and is as naturally inclined to do so as anyone who is naturally inclined to read or discuss or hear a sutta explained? Why cannot these two things live together, rather than have meditation excluded as akusala? 2/ I cannot escape the conclusion that rather than all things being equal, that there is a definite philosophy here that sutta and com study are a more kusala activity than meditation, and that it is a choice of activity, rather than a "no-choice" policy. It seems like a choice disguised as a non-choice to me; ie, a preference. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #96339 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 2:25 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Jon. > > > Clearly for certain meditators, Buddha believed that practicing > > anapanasati *would* facilitate their path, and described the > > conditions under which this might take place. The meditators the > > Buddha addressed in the anapanasati sutta weren't meditating just > for > > health benefits, but as a facilitation of the path. > > I have a different understanding of the Anapanasati Sutta ;-)) Would > you be interested in posting the passage you rely on for the above > paragraph (namely that the practice of anapanasati was given by the > Buddha as a means of facilitating the path), so that we could discuss > further? > > Jon It's not a particular passage, but the whole sutta. It is my impression that these techniques were *given* by the Buddha. They don't appear as such in the yoga sutras or the literature of any other Indian religions. The practice of breathing for *mindfulness* is Buddha's contribution to meditation, so I would not suppose that Buddha just happened along to find these monks meditating in this way and mentioned how they can develop sati while they happened to be doing it for some other reason. Therefore one has to assume that the monks were doing this under his guidance, that it was the practice of Buddhist monks and that he had both created the techniques and was giving them further instructions. Is there any indication that this was not the case? If you found followers of patanjali practicing the concentration exercises in the yoga sutras, would you think anything other than that they were following patanjali's instructions because they were followers of patanjali? How do you see the relationship of the practice of these monks to what the Buddha was telling them about the specific practices? Buddha deserves credit for the systematic detailed path that he is laying out re. mindfulness of breathing, in which the breath is just the vehicle and everything in there has to do with mindfulness leading to factors of enlightenment leading to enlightenment, according to Buddha's own very unique teachings. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #96340 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 9:13 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Scott. That is interesting. Thanks, Rob Ep. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep. and Jon, > > Regarding: > > R: "Then what constitutes right effort?" ... > Kh. S: "That is it...If we don't study we cannot know at all that > Buddha just explained each citta as it is. How [there are] many > cetasikas arising with each particular one...It seems like only seeing > keeps on staying - no arising or falling at all. While there are so > many cittas in between - unknown all the time. So without > understanding citta yet, what about the understanding of effort as > just effort?" ======================================= #96341 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 10:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for your reply about insight. I think I understand what you are saying, though I don't think I see directly most of it yet. Hopefully it'll happen with time. (Also apologies to you and the mods as I've mistakenly posted that message from another email not registered with DSG). Continuing with ADL, chapter 17: 1. "There is eyesense arising and falling away all the time; throughout our life it is produced by kamma. However, eyesense is not a door all the time, because there is not all the time the experience of visible object. Eyesense is a door only when citta experiences visible object." I'm a bit confused here because in the suttas it says that the meeting of a visible object and a working eye is the condition for the arising of eye-consciousness. However, in the above passage, it seems to be saying the opposite - it is consciousness that determines when eye-door will arise to experience a visible object. I'm probably confusing something here. 2. "The physical base or vatthu is not the same as dvåra or doorway. Although the five sense-organs can serve as dvåra and vatthu, dvåra and vatthu have different functions. For example, the cakkhuppasåda-rúpa functions as the eye-door (cakkhu-dvåra), the means through which cittas of the eye-door process experience an object, and also as the eye-base (cakkhu-vatthu), the physical base, the place of origin for seeing-consciousness." I'm still not clear on why exactly are the two differentiated since they are both referring to the physical eye as the location. Can you perhaps give an analogy that would illustrate the difference between the two? Thanks pt #96342 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 11:38 pm Subject: Re: hetupaccaya from patthana sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, I was curious about the following text you quoted from the Patthana (#93208), but only just got round to pulling out my texts to check: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma friends, > > The first condition described in Patthana is Hetupaccaya. > > There are 6 hetus: > lobha, dosa, moha - akusala dhammas > alobha, adosa, amoha - kusala dhammas. > > I've got some difficulties reading Patthanapali, Pucchavaro section. > > I quote what is unclear: > > "(1.) Kusalapada.m > > 25. Siyaa kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca kusalo dhammo uppajjeyya > hetupaccayaa. Siyaa kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca akusalo dhammo > uppajjeyya hetupaccayaa. Siyaa kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca abyaakato > dhammo uppajjeyya hetupaccayaa. Siyaa kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca > kusalo ca abyaakato ca dhammaa uppajjeyyu.m hetupaccayaa. Siyaa > kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca akusalo ca abyaakato ca dhammaa > uppajjeyyu.m hetupaccayaa. Siyaa kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca kusalo ca > akusalo ca dhammaa uppajjeyyu.m hetupaccayaa. Siyaa kusala.m dhamma.m > pa.ticca kusalo ca akusalo ca abyaakato ca dhammaa uppajjeyyu.m > hetupaccayaa." > > I am quite sure that means: > "Kusala dhamma arises because of kusala dhamma by the way of > hetupaccaya. Kusala dhamma arises because of akusala dhamma by the way > of hetupaccaya. Kusala dhamma arises because of indeterminate dhamma > by the way of hetupaccaya. Kusala dhamma arises because of kusala > dhamma or indeterminate dhamma by the way of hetupaccaya..... " ... .... S: Some of it didn't make sense to me either, i.e. "Siyaa kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca akusalo dhammo uppajjeyya hetupaccayaa" which you translate as "Kusala dhamma arises because of akusala dhamma by the way of hetupaccaya". So I checked and for the English it is the question marks that are missing: From the PTS translation: Question chapter.....1. Faultless Section (Root Condition) " (i) Dependent on faultless state, may there arise faultless state by root condition? ii) Dependent on faultless state, may there arise faulty state by root condition? iii) Dependent on faultless state, may there arise indeterminate state by root condition? iv) Dependent on faultless state, may there arise faultless and indeterminate states by root condition? v) Dependent on faultless state, may there arise faulty and indeterminate states by root condition? vi) Dependent on faultless state, may there arise faultless and faulty states by root condition? vii) Dependent on faultless state, may there arise faultless, faulty amd indeterminate states by root condition? [this is followed by the same for 'faulty section' and so on.] S:Then we get to the answers with the Pali starting with: 1. Kusalattika.m... Anuloma.m – hetupaccayo 53. Kusala.m dhamma.m pa.yicca kusalo dhammo uppajjati hetupaccayaa... [http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/] " (i) Dependent on faultless state, arises faultless state by root condition. Dependent on one faultless aggregate, arise three (faultless) aggregates.... (ii) Dependent on faultless state, arises indeterminate state by root condtion. Dependent on faultless aggregates, arises mind-produced matter. iii) Dependent on faultless state, arises faultless and indeterminate states by root condtion.... iv) Dependent on faulty state, arises faulty state by root condition...." etc. **** L:> It's not possible that kusala hetu is a paccaya for akusala > dhamma. If there is lobha, there is always akusala citta. There is no chance that lobha condition kusala dhamma. ... S: You're right that by hetu paccaya, kusala hetu cannot be a condition for akusala dhamma and you'll see that the answers to the questions clarify this. I hope this clarifies your good questions which show your understanding of hetus. Metta, Sarah ====== #96343 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 4, 2009 12:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 4-mrt-2009, om 7:32 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina, thanks for your reply about insight. I think I understand > what you are saying, though I don't think I see directly most of it > yet. Hopefully it'll happen with time. (Also apologies to you and the > mods as I've mistakenly posted that message from another email not > registered with DSG). ------- > N: But who sees directly? Then stages of insight must be reached. > But we begin with pariyatti. It is normal that we do not yet > directly understand realities. Listening, considering on and on > with great patience are the conditions for the arising of direct > understanding, but we do not know when this will happen. It does > not matter, it is understanding that matters, understanding leads > to detachment form the idea of self. I did not notice about your posting from another mail. --------- > pt: Continuing with ADL, chapter 17: > 1. "There is eyesense arising and falling away all the time; > throughout our life it is produced by kamma. However, eyesense is not > a door all the time, because there is not all the time the experience > of visible object. Eyesense is a door only when citta experiences > visible object." > > I'm a bit confused here because in the suttas it says that the meeting > of a visible object and a working eye is the condition for the arising > of eye-consciousness. ------- N: Meeting or association. The term aayatana is also used. An outer aayatana associates with an inward aayatana and so there are conditions for a sense-cognition such as seeing. -------- > pt: However, in the above passage, it seems to be > saying the opposite - it is consciousness that determines when > eye-door will arise to experience a visible object. I'm probably > confusing something here. ------- N: Kamma produces ruupas of the body all the time, such as eyesense, earsense, etc. Throughout life these are produced. But there is not seeing, hearing etc. all the time. Only when the right conditions are present processes of cittas arise that experience sense objects through the relevant doorways. Thus, eyesense, earsense, although they keep on arising and falling away all the time, are not doorways all the time. This helps us to understand that there can be only one citta at a time experiencing one object through one doorway at a time. When hardness is experienced through the bodydoor, there is only that reality and no other reality can be experienced at the same time. This will help to understand what vipassanaa is: the development of understanding of whatever dhamma presents itself now. Only one object at a time can be known, either a nama or a rupa. --------- > pt: 2. "The physical base or vatthu is not the same as dvåra or > doorway. > Although the five sense-organs can serve as dvåra and vatthu, dvåra > and vatthu have different functions. For example, the > cakkhuppasåda-rúpa functions as the eye-door (cakkhu-dvåra), the means > through which cittas of the eye-door process experience an object, and > also as the eye-base (cakkhu-vatthu), the physical base, the place of > origin for seeing-consciousness." > > I'm still not clear on why exactly are the two differentiated since > they are both referring to the physical eye as the location. Can you > perhaps give an analogy that would illustrate the difference between > the two? ------ N: When cittas of the eye-door process arise, all of them are dependent on the eyedoor, the means through which they experience visible object. However, only for seeing eyesense functions as physical base, place of origination, namely, as the eyebase. The other cittas of the eye-door process have the heartbase as physical base. Thus, it is the same rupa, eyesense, but it can have the function of doorway and the function of physical base. It is doorway for the whole process of cittas and it is base for only one citta, for the relevant sense-cognition. This helps us to understand that seeing is different from the other cittas arising in the eye-door process. Seeing just sees and it is accompanied by the minimum amount of cetasikas, seven cetasikas. It does not need for example the cetasika vitakka, thinking, it arises at the eyesense and sees directly visible object. The other cittas arising in the eye-door process do not see, but they still experience visible object, they advert to it, receive it, investigate it, determinate it, react in an unwholesome way or wholesome way to it. ***** Nina. #96344 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Mar 4, 2009 2:26 am Subject: Re: hetupaccaya from patthana szmicio Dear Sarah I am really happy that you refresh this old topic. I've always had a very deep reflections during reading conditions. Nina's conditons and also patthana in pali are most beneficial to me. That's so wonderful to find this deep dhamma in text: 53. Kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca kusalo dhammo uppajjati hetupaccayaa – kusala.m eka.m khandha.m pa.ticca tayo khandhaa, tayo khandhe pa.ticca eko khandho, dve khandhe pa.ticca dve khandhaa. Kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca abyaakato dhammo uppajjati hetupaccayaa – kusale khandhe pa.ticca cittasamu.t.thaana.m ruupa.m. Kusala.m dhamma.m pa.ticca kusalo ca abyaakato ca dhammaa uppajjanti hetupaccayaa – kusala.m eka.m khandha.m pa.ticca tayo khandhaa cittasamu.t.thaana~nca ruupa.m, tayo khandhe pa.ticca eko khandho cittasamu.t.thaana~nca ruupa.m, dve khandhe pa.ticca dve khandhaa cittasamu.t.thaana~nca ruupa.m. (3) (From Kusalattika.m, Pa.ticcavaaro, Paccayaanuloma.m, Vibha"ngavaaro , Anuloma.m – hetupaccayo) L: Sadhu. Even if there is a lot of complaining about akusala and also regrets, when we are reminded more an more about conditions we can develop more and more understanding. No problem with aksuala then, good object for understanding. Best wishes Lukas P.s thanks for it. > 1. Kusalattika.m... > > Anuloma.m – hetupaccayo > > 53. Kusala.m dhamma.m pa.yicca kusalo dhammo uppajjati hetupaccayaa... > [http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/] > > " (i) Dependent on faultless state, arises faultless state by root condition. > Dependent on one faultless aggregate, arise three (faultless) aggregates.... > (ii) Dependent on faultless state, arises indeterminate state by root condtion. > Dependent on faultless aggregates, arises mind-produced matter. > iii) Dependent on faultless state, arises faultless and indeterminate states by root condtion.... > iv) Dependent on faulty state, arises faulty state by root condition...." > etc. > **** #96345 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Mar 4, 2009 4:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats sarahprocter... Dear Connie, While checking texts...(#95483) >C: (185) Braahmin truths. > [...] 'Well, Wanderers, these four braahmin truths have been set forth by myself after fully comprehending and realizing them for myself. What four? > In this case, Wanderers, **the braahmin says thus: "All living things are not to be harmed."^2 So saying, a braahmin speaks truth, not falsehood.** Therein he has no conceit of "recluse" or "brahmin." He has no conceit of "better am I," "equal am I," "inferior am I." Moreover by fully comprehending the truth contained in that saying he is bent on the practice of mercy and compassion for all living things. > [...] >but check out the footnote for this first one!: > p183 n2: Avajjhaa. Text strangely reads avijjaa (?). ... S: Just checked on Tipit.org and they have for the Pali: sabbe paa.naa avajjhaa"ti So seems right... thanks again for the sutta. ... >I also thought it was interesting that "when the Exalted One reached those Wanderers, on coming to them he sat down on a seat made ready." Was that prepared seat a fairly common thing, then and not just something 'our' bhikkhus did? ... S: As I mentioned, I brought this up in Bangkok in the context of a discussion of rupas conditioned by temperature conditioned by kamma. Other examples were also discussed, such as the heavenly mansions, various 'miracles', the ehi passiko bowl and robe etc. How are your various studies going? And can the knee managed the steps down to the basement yet? I just had my first walk up the steep steps by our building to the Mid-Levels scenic path for the first time in months, thanks to a gradual improvement in my hip. Patience! Metta, Sarah ========== #96346 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Mar 4, 2009 4:31 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 Dear Robert and Jon, Regarding: R: "That is interesting." Scott: Please consider Dhammasa"nga.ni (the first volume of the Abhidhamma, p. 13): "What on that occasion is the faculty of energy? The mental inception of energy which there is on that occasion, the striving and the onward effort, the exertion and endeavour, the zeal and ardour, the vigour and fortitude, the state of unfaltering effort, the state of sustained desire, the state of unflinching endurance and solid grip of the burden, energy, energy as faculty, energy as power, right endeavour - this is the energy that there then is." Katama.m tasmi.m samaye viiriyindriya.m hoti? Yo tasmi.m samaye cetasiko viiriyaarambho [viriyaarambho (sii. syaa.)] nikkamo parakkamo uyyaamo vaayaamo ussaaho usso.lhii [usso.lhi (sii.)] thaamo dhiti asithilaparakkamataa anikkhittachandataa anikkhittadhurataa dhurasampaggaaho viiriya.m viiriyindriya.m viiriyabala.m sammaavaayaamo â€" ida.m tasmi.m samaye viiriyindriya.m hoti. Scott: It is clarified that this is viriya cetasika, and, more importantly, that this 'energy' is 'the mental inception of energy' (Yo tasmi.m samaye cetasiko viiriyaarambho). Consider Atthasaalinii (the commentary to Dhammasa"nga.ni, pp. 192-193): "In the exposition of the 'faculty of energy' the word 'mental' is said to show that energy is always mental. 'Bhikkhus, that which is bodily energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom. Thus energy is outlined (Sa.myutta v. 111). Thus, in such Suttas, even though this energy may be said to be bodily from its arising in one walking to and fro, etc., yet it is not so called as in the term 'body consciousness.' Verily there is only mental energy. It is shown that 'mental' has been said...here the interpretation [of the word] is energy. Hence viiriyaarambha means the putting forth which is energy. Viriya indeed has been declared to be aarambha by virtue of a putting forth. And this is the primary fact in viriya..." Scott: Since there has never been any 'one-who-does-anything' - whether one thinks so or not (that is, whether sakkaaya di.t.thi arises or not) - then it makes sense that viriya is only mental and refers to the cetasika (mental factor) and its effect on the conascent consciousness and mental factors. There is no reference to any bodily movements - these are what one takes for energetic doing because one takes one's body as self and one thinks one's body is whole and continuous. Sincerely, Scott. #96347 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 4, 2009 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hetupaccaya from patthana sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Wed, 4/3/09, szmicio wrote: >I am really happy that you refresh this old topic. I've always had a very deep reflections during reading conditions. Nina's conditons and also patthana in pali are most beneficial to me. That's so wonderful to find this deep dhamma in text: ... S: Well, I appreciate your careful study and keen interest which can inspire others of us! If there were any other details/questions that were not fully answered when the list was so busy and some of us were travelling, feel free to raise them again now that it's quieter. Metta, Sarah p.a. Have you had a chance to listen to any of the new recordings? If anyone has difficulty listening/downloading from www.dsg.org and would like us to send a c.d. in mp3 format, pls let me know. ========= #96348 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Mar 4, 2009 1:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi kenhowardau Hi Larry, -------- > L: Sorry, my mind's a blank, nothing there. Thoughts come and go but they don't form anything. Seems like everything has been said, but something is missing. Maybe it's insight that is missing :-)) --------- Maybe it is, but for whom is it missing? No one! There is no one there. There are only dhammas coming and going by conditions. Discussion welcome. :-) Ken H #96349 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Mar 4, 2009 6:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Sarah! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep, > > --- On Mon, 2/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > > >> S: "A skillful device" without any misunderstanding by him or Ananda > that any bhavana, any 'meditation' , any dhammas whatsoever (apart from > nibbana, of course) could arise by anything other than conditions. The > Buddha could not make or force Ananda to develop greater wisdom and > nor could Ananda do such. However, the hearing of the Teachings, the > emphasis on the urgency of such development, may be a condition for > such wisdom to arise. > ... > R:> Well perhaps we will all give and receive directives from now on with > the idea that they are just part of the current conditions and things > will happen as they do. I know that's the case when I tell my > daughter what to do. Sometimes she does, and sometimes she doesn't. > It's a matter of chance. :-) > ... > S: :-). Or rather, a matter of what conditions lead to at such a time:-). That is appropriately precise. :-) > In another post yesterday, I referred to how it's not just a matter of having the helpful text on the table or even listening to the Buddha. It all comes back to the wise attention (yoniso manasikaara) at such times or reading or listening in order for there to be suta-maya pa~n~naa (understanding based on listening) and cinta-maya pa~n~naa (understanding based on considering), leading to > bhaavanaa-maya pa~n~naa(understanding based on development) arise. But I would assume that one is not in control of that either - that one cannot *pay* wise attention - it just arises for the citta of the moment. > Back to Ananda, from the Enlightenment Chapter in the commentary to the Udana (Masefield transl., p 31): > > "...for, in the present case, it is those particular ways of hearing (sutassa), pierced by him himself, that are referred back to by way of (the word) 'eva.m' by the venerable Aananda, it being thereby that his non-confusion is elucidated. For one who is confused is not capable of piercing (the present sutta's) diverse nature (naanappakaara)......For the one for whom that was (once) heard has (since) become forgotten does not claim, after an interval of time, that (such) was heard by him (mayaa suta.m). Hence, there is, through that non-confusion, proof of his insight; or else there is, through the insight generated, due to an absence of confusion, at the time of hearing, proof of insight at a time subsequent thereto - likewise, through non-forgetfulness, proof of mindfulness." Who judges the non-confusion I wonder? Can't Ananda think he is unconfused and be subject to delusion/wrong view? > > And a little later... > "...the individual whose mind is distracted, even upon being spoken to when all other (conditions) have been satisfied, states "(Such) was not heard by me, please state it again". > > I'm sure the last comment is familiar to us all! Very. Both giving and receiving. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #96350 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Mar 4, 2009 7:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for your reply. Regarding: > N: Kamma produces ruupas of the body all the time, such as eyesense, > earsense, etc. Throughout life these are produced. But there is not > seeing, hearing etc. all the time. Only when the right conditions are > present processes of cittas arise that experience sense objects > through the relevant doorways. Thus, eyesense, earsense, although > they keep on arising and falling away all the time, are not doorways I'm trying to understand what is the role of vipaka in sense-perception process, that is, how does vipaka shape the way we perceive "the world". Please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere: As far as I understand so far: -the eyesense itself is produced by kamma, so it has to do with vipaka. -seeing consciousness is a vipaka-citta, so again has to do with vipaka. -rupas (visible objects) themselves are considered to be inherently pleasant or unpleasant in abhidhamma, so I'm guessing this again has to do with vipaka. So, the only thing that remains in question: is the arising of a rupa also caused by vipaka - from reading your Rupas book, rupas are produced by kamma (vipaka, right?), nutrition, temperature and citta. In the outside world rupas are produced only by temperature. So it seems only in the case of arising of a rupa that vipaka doesn't have an exclusive role - i.e. rupa could also arise as a result of nutrition, citta and temperature. Is there anything important I'm missing regarding the role of vipaka in sense-perception? Thanks pt #96351 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Mar 4, 2009 7:57 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Scott. > > Scott: Since there has never been any 'one-who-does-anything' - whether one thinks so or not (that is, whether sakkaaya di.t.thi arises or not) - then it makes sense that viriya is only mental and refers to the cetasika (mental factor) and its effect on the conascent consciousness and mental factors. There is no reference to any bodily movements - these are what one takes for energetic doing because one takes one's body as self and one thinks one's body is whole and continuous. This is pretty exciting material. It seems to be saying that the body is unreal - an illusion - and that in fact it reflects a projection of a series of mental events. If physical energy and action are really mental events, I don't see what other conclusion one can draw. Is that the Abhidhamma philosophy? And if so, what is the status of a rupa? Does it represent a physical attribute or a mental quality that is attributed to a conventional object? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #96352 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 4, 2009 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > R:> I would ask, how did the monk become skilled in samatha with breath as > object? > .... > S: By conditions for such - primarily through right understanding of the this kind of samatha bhavana. R:>Well if right understanding of this form of samatha can include doing it as a "correct object of samatha bhavana," doesn't that mean that under the right conditions choosing a particular object of samatha *can* be right view? This seems in appearance to contradict the idea that a particular object choice is *always* wrong view by the nature of making a choice. ... S: I think the important point to remember in all these discussions is that all dhammas are anatta, not in anyone's 'choice'. This is essentially what the Buddha taught us - the development of understanding of namas and rupas as anatta. So, there is never any 'doing' of samatha or choosing any object by any person. Can you choose what you'll think about at the next moment or now? I don't think so. The particular kind of thinking arises by conditions to think about whatever there are tendencies to think about. For some, there may be the inclination to think about trees or words or the drilling noise outside. For others, such as these bhikkhus, there were conditions to think about breath or the nimitta of breath. Regardless of what is experienced through the senses or what is thought about, the Buddha taught us that the realities, one at a time, can be directly known now as conditioned dhammas, as anatta. So we're used to thinking that we select objects, that we make choices, that one thought is better than another. In reality, all such kinds of thinking, choices and selections are just impermanent dhammas which are inherently unsatisfactory. Even the highest arupa jhana is just another brick in the wall of samsara. Only vipassana tears down those bricks leading to the full realisation of the 4 Noble Truths. Even the celestial abodings are impermanent and of no real refuge. ... R:>So you are making a definite distinction between having a particular object of practice for samatha, as opposed to Buddhist vipassana, which should never have a chosen object? .... S: It's not so much a question of 'should' or 'should not' but of understanding that in the ultimate sense there are only conditioned dhammas. Any idea of 'a particular object' is only a kind of thinking. The path as taught by the Buddha is that of understanding the present dhammas for what they are. So a moment of awareness and right understanding of thinking as just thinking or effort as just effort or visible object as just visible object is far more precious that any concept. ..... R:>Corrolary question: Is development of samatha necessary to the path? ... S: The path is about the development of right understanding and associated factors. At any moment of such understanding, there is samatha, calm already. Such samatha develops with this right understanding, right awareness and so on and is far more precious than the development of samatha leading to jhana, because that which accompanies vipassana is free from any idea of atta. R:> So would you say that while samatha bhavana through breath is a high kusala attainment, that it is neither absolutely necessary, nor in any case sufficient, as a part of the path? ... S: Yes. I'd go further and say, not necessary at all. ... R:> Corrolary question: Would you say that although the kusala attainment of samatha is not an absolute part of the path, that it will add to the kusala conditions for being able to attain the path, because all kusala accumulations will add to this potential, even if they are not strictly "path-related kusala?" ... S: Any dhamma whatsoever can be a condition for attaining the path if it is known with insight. This applies just as much to lobha or dosa as it does to jhana citta. This is why someone like Angulimalla could listen to the Buddha and become an arahat, whereas many people who'd attained the highest jhanas, such as Devadatta, were unable to comprehend the Truths in that life. The key is the wise consideration and reflection on what had been (rightly) heard, leading to the right development of the path (as opposed to the wrong development). ... R:> Some people are going to sit, however, and take to meditation like a duck to water. Others are going to thrive on sutta study, possibly without having to ask themselves "why." In which case, if a person does what is natural to them, that may be their way of engaging with the path, as long as it is not a wrong involvement, and they are not subject to wrong view. ... S: I'd just say that if thre is an idea of 'sitting', 'focussing' or 'studying suttas' as being the practice, as being what is meant by bhaavanaa (meditation), then it is wrong involvement, following wrong view. It indicates a lack of understanding of what pariyatti (right intellectual understanding) or patipatti(right practice) mean as I see it. ... R:> The ordinary model of meditation would be that by getting rid of distractions and focusing the mind on whatever arises with breath relaxed and mind alert, that one will become more familiar with the nature of the moment and that this understanding will accumulate. ... S: Or, that this attachment will accumulate.....:-) ... R:>.....I can't see why this wouldn't lead to increased discernment through doing this activity. ... S: Because there's still an idea behind it of Self doing certain activities, selecting certain objects and of one scenario being more suitable than another. It's not the understanding of conditioned dhammas as anatta. ... R:> Even if it is true, as I agree, that insight and panna cannot be forced to arise by willing them to arise, and that they come by conditions, I am setting up a situation where those conditions may arise. ... S: You think you're 'setting up a situation', but it's an illusion. There's no Robert to do anything. There are just different moments of sense experiences followed by different moments of thinking and so on. Thinking of 'I'm setting up a more likely situation' is not understanding the present dhamma appearing as anatta at all. ... R:> If I go to the dog park every day, I am likely to see quite a few dogs, and get more familiar with them as I am around them. Or something like that. ... S: Yes, all this is the neat and pretty conventional dream! In reality, there are just various cittas, cetasikas and rupas, arising, performing functions and falling away. Visible objects are seen and the thinking then has all sorts of ideas about dogs. There can be understanding of the visible object now or there can be an idea of pursuing the dreams:-)). Great chatting as usual, Rob. Thanks again for your reflections and good humour. Metta, Sarah p.s Apologies for not replying to every inspired comment! Feel free to split any reply into parts. ======= #96353 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 4, 2009 10:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala citta sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Tue, 3/3/09, szmicio wrote: >What is characteristic of akusala citta? ... S: The citta now that is accompanied by lobha, dosa or moha. Whenever the citta does not involve dana, sila or bhavana, it's akusala. So most of our thinking during the day... ... >Is akusala a good object to vipassana? ... S: Any dhamma is a good object for vipassana. Whatever is real and appears now. ... >Even listening and reading Dhamma cannot stop akusala to arise. ... S: Only the magga citta of the arahat 'stops' the subtlest akusala from arising! It's time to get very used to understanding akusala with detachment. ... >what is the characteristic of domanassa? ... S: The unpleasant feeling, no matter how slight, that accompanies cittas rooted in dosa. For example, I just took a quick glance out of the window at the rain - just a slight uneasiness before I typed the next few words. Everyone knows what unpleasant feeling is, but is it known as just a dhamma or is it taken for 'my' unpleasant feeling at this moment? Metta, Sarah ========= #96354 From: "connie" Date: Wed Mar 4, 2009 11:15 pm Subject: truth and prepared seats nichiconn dear sarah, Book of Fours (185) Braahmin truths: ...the braahmin says thus: "All living things are not to be harmed."^2 So saying, a braahmin speaks truth, not falsehood. p183 n2: Avajjhaa. Text strangely reads avijjaa (?). S: Just checked on Tipit.org and they have for the Pali: sabbe paa.naa avajjhaa"ti So seems right... thanks again for the sutta. c: yeah, avijjaa (ignorance) being the most harmful thing, guess it doesn't matter which of the harmful words is read in there. of course a braahmin speaks truth. m, and breathing things. just finished reading the path of discrimination... whoa. one of the times i had to get up and leave it i realized i was shaking my head, muttering 'too much, too much'. go, puppet! reckon My Knee's just another standpoint for views. certainly, there's no Such Thing. the bike's not really a heavenly mansion, either but i'm a daydreamer. peace, connie #96355 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 4, 2009 11:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Let me have a go at answering your qus: --- On Wed, 4/3/09, szmicio wrote: >1)What is atta-sa~n~na? ... S: (wrong) perception or memory of a self ... 2)What is the function of atta-sa~n~na in the process of taking defilments for ourselfes? ... S: Without the sa~n~naa, remembrance of someone or something, there couldn't be any wrong view arising. .... >3)Does firm intellectual understanding helps eradicate atta-sa~n~na? ... S: Yes, as the essential condition for the direct understanding of dhammas as dhammas, not atta. Without this firm intellectual understanding, no satipa.t.thaana at all. ... >4)What is the function of moha in the process of taking defilments for ourselfes? ... S: Whenever any akusala cittas arise, moha is there - ignorant of such akusala. This is also true when wrong view arises. It's accompanied by moha. No understanding. ... >5)What is function of moha in the process of seeing? ... S: Seeing just sees, but in the javana process which follows (in the sense door and mind door process), moha arises with any akusala cittas. No knowing anything about the visible object. ... >Does moha condition seeing-consiousness as a latent tendency? ... S: Directly or indirectly moha/avijjaa (ignorance) conditions all conditioned dhammas as we know from D.O. Without avijjaa, no kamma and without kamma, no birth and so on. This is why we end up with the 3 va.t.ta (rounds) of kilesa va.t.ta, kamma va.t.ta and vipaka va.t.ta. ... >In paticcasamupada moha conditions everything, from sankhara to jati-marana. ... S: As usual, I see you've now given the answer!! Next time, I'll look ahead:-)). Metta, Sarah ========= #96356 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] pasada-rupas as dhammaaramma.na sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Wed, 4/3/09, szmicio wrote: >One of the dhammaaramma. na are pasada-rupas. They are gross not subtle, near not far. .... S: Yes. (For others, these are the sense-bases of eye-sense etc.) ... >In javana-process of mind-door there can be understanding of them. But there cannot be understanding of them in the sense-door processes, why? because it can have only 5 sense-consiousnes as its object? ... S: Yes. The only rupas which can be experienced by the sense-door processes are visible object, sound, smell, taste and the 3 tangible objects - temperature, hardness/softness and motion. .... >when pasada-rupa is dhammaaramma. na, does it mean that is an object of citta? .... S: Yes. .... >Can pa~n~na experience pasada-rupa which is past,for example that has fallen away 3 years ago? .... S: It would depend on whether you're talking about the pa~n~naa 'we' might have or the pa~n~naa of the Buddha's omniscient wisdom (or that of key disciples), for example. Unless jhanas and various abhi~n~naas have been developed, pa~n~naa can only directly experience the characteristic of the pasada-rupa which has just fallen away. Otherwise, it's just common thinking (whether rightly or wrongly). ... >When pa~n~na arises and has citta as an object, it's cittanupassana ... S: When citta is object it's cittanupassana and can also be included in dhammanupassana. For example, the 5 khandhas are included in dhammanupassana. .... >and when pa~n~na has object of citta as its object then it is dhammanupassana, isnt it? ... S: Any dhamma can be included in dhammanupassana as I understand. The object of citta might be a bodily rupa, then it's also included in kayanupassana. Or it might be a feeling, inc. in vedanupassana etc. Of course, if the object of citta is a concept, then it's not included in any of the 4 satipatthanas. Here's a note from an old message of Jon's on dhammanupassana: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11347 "I do not see anything *prescriptive*, or descriptive of a *practice preliminary to/leading to* satipatthana, in this. It seems to be talking about actual moments of awareness accompanied by right understanding, in other words, moments of vipassana. A further point to consider is this. Mind-objects as object of satipatthana encompasses dhammas of all kinds, including unwholesome mental factors and rupas also. The full list of mind-objects given in the Satipatthana Sutta is as follows: a/. the 5 hindrances (nivarana) b/. the 5 aggregates (khandhas) c/. the 6 sense-bases d/. the 7 factors of enlightenment e/. the Four Noble Truths In each instance, the passage in question states that the mind-object is *known as it really is*, and this to me is the essence of the sutta. It is something that applies regardless of the nature of the mind-object in question – kusala or akusala, nama or rupa." Metta, Sarah ========== #96357 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 12:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 5-mrt-2009, om 4:41 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > As far as I understand so far: > -the eyesense itself is produced by kamma, so it has to do with > vipaka. --------- N: It is one of the conditions for receiving the result of kamma. --------- > pt:-seeing consciousness is a vipaka-citta, so again has to do with > vipaka. --------- N: It is vipaaka. Rebirth-consciousness is the result of kamma, and it is followed by bhavangacittas, that are also vipaakacittas and the same type as rebirth-consciousness. But our life does not consist of only bhavangacittas; during our life we experience objects through the senses, and the sense-cognitions are results of kamma. -------- > pt: -rupas (visible objects) themselves are considered to be > inherently > pleasant or unpleasant in abhidhamma, so I'm guessing this again has > to do with vipaka. ------- N: Not the objects, but the experience of them is result of kamma. Kamma is the cause of experiencing a pleasant sense object or an unplasant sense object. But usually we do not know whether the object was pleasant or unpleasant. We think about objects afterwards with lobha or dosa. ------- > > pt: So, the only thing that remains in question: is the arising of > a rupa > also caused by vipaka - from reading your Rupas book, rupas are > produced by kamma (vipaka, right?), nutrition, temperature and citta. > In the outside world rupas are produced only by temperature. --------- N: We have to differentiate kamma and vipaaka. Rupa is not produced by vipaaka. There are particular rupas produced by kamma: the senses, sex, heartbase. You cannot see these. ------- > > pt: So it seems only in the case of arising of a rupa that vipaka > doesn't > have an exclusive role - i.e. rupa could also arise as a result of > nutrition, citta and temperature. ------- N: I would not say rupa is a result of nutrition, citta and temperature. It originates from these factors. The word vipaaka is used for the mental result of kamma: the experiences. Vipaaka does not have a role to play, it is rather the passive side of life. > --------- > pt:Is there anything important I'm missing regarding the role of > vipaka > in sense-perception? ------- N: We have to differentiate the four jaatis (classes) of citta: kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. Cittas of different jaatis arise at different moments during a sense perception. --------- Nina. #96358 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 12:57 am Subject: Re: cornerstone sarahprocter... Dear Connie, As I said, just checking some points put aside - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: >On the other hand, the analysis into eighteen dhatus is often resorted to in order to show that consciousness is neither a soul nor an extension of a soul-substance but a mental phenomenon which comes into being as a result of certain conditions: there is no independent consciousness which exists in its own right.8 <...> In the oft-recurrent statement, villanapaccaya namarupat, the reference is to the special sense. {c: villana, here and in n.8, must be vi~n~naa.na & rupat = rupa, I believe} <...> > 8. Cf. Allatra paccaya natthi villanassa sambhavo (M III 281). {c: allatra ???. ref to MN148 (5-8) Chachakka S.} > > c: sorry, I don't have a hardcopy of Wheel Pub.412-413 & these footnote 'typos' (a missing font on my machine?) are in all the internet versions I've seen. ... S: I thought we might have had a hardcopy at one time, but just checked and we don't seem to now, anyway. I also just checked a couple of internet versions and found the same. I think what happens is that the first website scans it and everyone else copies the same or something like that. When I posted the extracts from Cetasikas, it was the same. .... >Maybe I'll just (be bugged & pretend to) ignore them... like the missing diacritics throughout. BTW, what does Cf. in footnotes mean? Much as I like 'em, I've never quite learned how to read 'em. ... S: it means 'Compare'. An instruction, but of course will depend on all the usual conditions as to whether we take the prescription or just correct the typos or ignore altogether! (I forget my Latin). Metta, Sarah ======= #96359 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 3:30 am Subject: Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi szmicio Dear Sarah should we be concerned if not kusala for a long time? Best wishes Lukas #96360 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 3:42 am Subject: Re: Reminder - on ditthi szmicio Dear Sarah Can we spend some more time to discuss ditthi? Best wishes Lukas #96361 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 4:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder - about lobha, mana and ditthi sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Thu, 5/3/09, szmicio wrote: >should we be concerned if not kusala for a long time? ... S: Would such concern be kusala or akusala? Metta Sarah #96362 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 4:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder - on ditthi sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Thu, 5/3/09, szmicio wrote: >Can we spend some more time to discuss ditthi? ... S: Of course - you start! Is there any ditthi arising now? Metta Sarah p.s You may like to briefly quote from some text and discuss further - such as Visuddhimagga or Nina's Cetasikas. Up to you, how to proceed. ====================== #96363 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 4:31 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 Dear Rob Ep: Regarding: R: "This is pretty exciting material. It seems to be saying that the body is unreal - an illusion - and that in fact it reflects a projection of a series of mental events. If physical energy and action are really mental events, I don't see what other conclusion one can draw. Is that the Abhidhamma philosophy? And if so, what is the status of a rupa? Does it represent a physical attribute or a mental quality that is attributed to a conventional object?" Scott: Yes! 'The body' as experienced and then thought about as a whole, integral, integrated, controllable, and, coherent thing - 'my body' - is an illusion; 'the body' is a concept. Ruupa is a reality. The ruupas which make up 'the body' know nothing - are not naama - and arise and fall away by conditions and consist of the Four Great Essentials and the derived ruupas, all coming and going. This is the impermanence of 'the body' and this is the non-existence of 'the body'. Death occurs at every moment. 'The body' arises and falls away so quickly. Ruupa appears here then there, conditioned by naama and one says, 'I move' and, 'I make myself move' and, 'Look I made myself move from there to here'. This would be the illusion of permanence. The material bases and their associated body consciousness arise and fall away first here then there, experiencing external ruupa, and one says, 'Hey, someone touched my arm' or, 'My leg hurts' or, 'I like to put my hand on my cat and feel how soft she is.' This is thinking and conceptual. The ruupa that arises and falls away, and that is one of the five aggregates - the other four (naama) arising and falling away at their own pace and related by conditions to this internal ruupa and known as a being - arises in the bases, and hence is related to consciousness, etc. If you could go to the 'Files' link and click on 'Useful Posts' under 'ruupa', you could read more. Sincerely, Scott. #96364 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 4:53 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 Dear Robert and Jon, Regarding: "...'Bhikkhus, that which is bodily energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom. Thus energy is outlined (Sa.myutta v. 111)..." Scott: Here is the Sutta extract quoted (paraphrased) above, for your consideration; it is SN 52 (2) A Method of Exposition (Pariyaayasutta.m): "Whenever one discriminates things internally with wisdom, examines them, makes an investigation of them, that is the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states; whenever one discriminates things externally with wisdom, examines them, makes an investigation of them, that is also the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states. Thus what is spoken of concisely as the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states becomes, by this method of exposition, is twofold. "Whatever bodily energy there is, is the enlightenment factor of energy; whatever mental energy there is, is also the enlightenment factor of energy. Thus what is spoken of concisely as the enlightenment factor of energy becomes, by this method of exposition, twofold." Yadapi , bhikkhave, ajjhatta.m dhammesu pa~n~naaya pavicinati [pavicinaati (ka.)] pavicarati pariviima.msamaapajjati tadapi dhammavicayasambojjha"ngo, yadapi bahiddhaa dhammesu pa~n~naaya pavicinati pavicarati pariviimaṃsamaapajjati tadapi dhammavicayasambojjha"ngo. 'Dhammavicayasambojjha"ngo' ti iti hida.m uddesa.m gacchati. Tadaminaapeta.m pariyaayena dvaya.m hoti. 'Yadapi, bhikkhave, kaayika.m viiriya.m tadapi viiriyasambojjha"ngo, yadapi cetasika.m viiriya.m tadapi viiriyasambojjha"ngo. 'Viiriyasambojjha"ngo 'ti iti hida.m uddesa.m gacchati. Tadaminaapeta.m pariyaayena dvaya.m hoti. Sincerely, Scott. #96365 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 5:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder - on ditthi sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, L:>Can we spend some more time to discuss ditthi? .... S: Here's a quote about one kind of self-view from the commentaries to the Brahmajaala Sutta, transl. by B.Bodhi in "The All-Embracing Net of Views", (BPS) p.193. It's on the topic of "the inclination towards views (di.t.thiajjhaaasaya): Cy:" 'Then the following line of thought arose in the mind of a certain bhikkhu: 'It is said, sir, that material form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, mental formations are not-self, consciousness is not-self. What self, then, do kammas done without a self affect?' Then the Exalted One, discerning with his mind this bhikkhu's thought, addressed the bhikkhus: 'It is possible, bhikkhus, that a certain foolish man here, uncomprehending, immersed in ignorance and dominated by cravin, may imagine in his mind that he can over-shoot the dispensation of the Master, thus: 'It is said, sir, that material form is not-self,' etc. What do you think, bhikkhus, is material form permanent or impermanent?' ', etc. (M. 109)." Sub.Cy: " 'It is said,' etc.: this bhikkhu reveals his own disapproval of the emptiness of selfhood (attasu~n~nataa) as it is taught by the Exalted One. 'Kammas done without a self': kammas which are not done by any self, or kammas done by the aggregates which are not-self. He asks: 'If there is no self, and the aggregates are momentary, what self do kammas affect when they produce their fruits?' The meaning is: '*Who* experiences the fruit of kamma?' He is 'uncomprehending' because he is unskilled in the ariyan dhamma due to lack of learning, etc.; he is 'immersed in ignorance' because he has not abandoned ignorance due to lack of discipline in the ariyan dhamma; and he is 'dominated by craving' because he has come under the domination of craving, thinking: 'If there is no one called 'I', who experiences the fruit of the kamma done by me? But if there is an 'I', there may well be the enjoyment of the fruit.' "'In his mind': in a mind accompanied by clinging to a doctrine of self (attavaadupaaadaana). 'That he can overshoot the dispensation of the Master': though formations are momentary, the kamma and the fruit in the assemblage of dhammas (constituting an individual) are connected together by the fact that the fruit arises in the same continuum in which the kamma was originally done. But wrongly applying the method of unity to this connection, he concludes that there must be a single self-identical agent (kaaraka) and experiencer (vedaka) (in order to establish a connection between kamma and its fruit). Thus he conceives that he can pass beyond the dispensation of the Master, which elucidates the emptiness of a self and of any property of a self." ***** S: Do we sometimes try to "pass beyond the dispensation of the Master" by introducing a *Who*, by clinging to an idea of Self that experiences results, performs actions, makes effort or in other subtle or not-so-subtle ways? Metta, Sarah p.s Perhaps others also have some favourite quotes on di.t.thi. ======= #96366 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 6:10 am Subject: Re: Reminder - on doubts szmicio --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Lukas, > > --- On Thu, 5/3/09, szmicio wrote: > > >should we be concerned if not kusala for a long time? > > ... > S: Would such concern be kusala or akusala? L: For me it's impossible to tell whether something is kusala or not. There is thinking about kusala and akusala. But only pa~n~na can know it. Like light which emanate in each directions. There is only few conditioned moments in life when it arises and knows what is kusala. just on conditions. I take akusala for "my akusala". I think about them with regrets. It's not kusala. Is it correct to learn more and more about realities as not mine, even there is a lot of akusala? What is the characteristic of doubts? doubts doesnt think. My best wishes Lukas #96367 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 6:33 am Subject: Re: Reminder - on ditthi szmicio Dear Sarah thank you for this quote. It's so hard to eradicate ditthi. we cannot do this on our own, wise friends are needed. This quote is a big support. > S: Here's a quote about one kind of self-view from the commentaries to the Brahmajaala Sutta, transl. by B.Bodhi in "The All-Embracing Net of Views", (BPS) p.193. It's on the topic of "the inclination towards views (di.t.thiajjhaaasaya): > > Cy:" 'Then the following line of thought arose in the mind of a certain bhikkhu: 'It is said, sir, that material form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, mental formations are not-self, consciousness is not-self. What self, then, do kammas done without a self affect?' Then the Exalted One, discerning with his mind this bhikkhu's thought, addressed the bhikkhus: 'It is possible, bhikkhus, that a certain foolish man here, uncomprehending, immersed in ignorance and dominated by cravin, may imagine in his mind that he can over-shoot the dispensation of the Master, thus: 'It is said, sir, that material form is not-self,' etc. What do you think, bhikkhus, is material form permanent or impermanent?' ', etc. (M. 109)." > > Sub.Cy: " 'It is said,' etc.: this bhikkhu reveals his own disapproval of the emptiness of selfhood (attasu~n~nataa) as it is taught by the Exalted One. 'Kammas done without a self': kammas which are not done by any self, or kammas done by the aggregates which are not-self. He asks: 'If there is no self, and the aggregates are momentary, what self do kammas affect when they produce their fruits?' The meaning is: '*Who* experiences the fruit of kamma?' He is 'uncomprehending' because he is unskilled in the ariyan dhamma due to lack of learning, etc.; he is 'immersed in ignorance' because he has not abandoned ignorance due to lack of discipline in the ariyan dhamma; and he is 'dominated by craving' because he has come under the domination of craving, thinking: 'If there is no one called 'I', who experiences the fruit of the kamma done by me? But if there is an 'I', there may well be the enjoyment of the fruit.' > > "'In his mind': in a mind accompanied by clinging to a doctrine of self (attavaadupaaadaana). 'That he can overshoot the dispensation of the Master': though formations are momentary, the kamma and the fruit in the assemblage of dhammas (constituting an individual) are connected together by the fact that the fruit arises in the same continuum in which the kamma was originally done. But wrongly applying the method of unity to this connection, he concludes that there must be a single self-identical agent (kaaraka) and experiencer (vedaka) (in order to establish a connection between kamma and its fruit). Thus he conceives that he can pass beyond the dispensation of the Master, which elucidates the emptiness of a self and of any property of a self." > ***** #96368 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 7:15 am Subject: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. abhidhammika Dear Jon, Sukin, Ken H, Howard, Robert E, Alex, Colette, James, Robert K, Sarah, and Nina How are you? I quoted: 374. "And, Monks, how does a monk lives as a repeated body–observer in the body? Here, Monks, the monk goes to the forest or to the root of the tree or to a quiet building and sits having crossed his legs, keeping his upper body upright, orienting mindfulness towards breathing as the meditation object. He inhales mindfully only. He exhales mindfully only." And, when I wrote: "In the above Pali passage from Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam, the monk is focussing on the processes of breathing in line with the Buddha's instructions for the purpose of developing mindfulness." Jon wrote: "I do not see anything in the nature of an instruction in the Pali passage (only a description)." Suan replies by means of a scientific discovery witnessed by a group of primatologists. A few years ago, I saw on the television how the primatologists witnessed a group of monkeys crossing a waterway by using long sticks to gauge the depth of water and safely reaching the other shore. The primatologists were very excited about their discovery regarding the monkeys' intelligent and precautionary measures and ability to plan ahead. But, soon, the primatologists had a sinking feeling overshadowed by doubt. What if these monkeys had seen how human beings used long sticks to gauge the depth of water when crossing waterways! What if the monkeys were merely following the example of human beings when they were in the similar circumstances! Suppose the above two scenarios were true. In this case, the human beings did not instruct those monkeys directly, but they happened to demonstrate how things are done, amounting to giving instructions to their primate cousins indirectly, unwittingly. The issue regarding whether the Buddha merely described how things are done or gave instructions and prescriptions in Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam depends on the purposes of the readers and listeners of this Suttam. For those traditional followers of Theravada who wish to practise formal Buddhist meditation in order to develop satipa.t.thaana, Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam is their source manual of the Buddha's inspirational instructions. For such practitioners, the Buddha was talking to them directly. For those who object to the practice of formal Buddhist meditation and who are not inspired by the Buddha, they would regard the teachings in Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam as mere descriptions. As soon as the people downplay the Buddha's teachings as mere descriptions, they can pretend that the Buddha was not talking to them. With this excuse, they can also pretend that they do not need to take responsible measures for personal involvement in his teachings. KS folks, notably Jon, Ken H, and Sukin, seem to be the second type of people who fail to learn things by examples as a result of viewing the Buddha's teachings in Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam as mere descriptions. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org PS --- This is a reply to Jon's message #96250 #96369 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 10:35 am Subject: Khana Sutta szmicio "It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a hell named 'Six Spheres of Contact.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable. "It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a heaven named 'Six Spheres of Contact.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue ... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable. "It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life." (Khana Sutta SN.35.135) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.135.than.html #96370 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 1:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation epsteinrob Hi Sarah. Just want to say that I appreciate all of your comments and answers to my queries, which are clear and well composed. I think I am getting a clearer idea of what this view is, and at least the view itself is one that seems to be the essence of Buddhism: that every arising experience is a conditioned temporary one, and that it has no enduring essence or substantial nature. I can also understand the idea that "self" is composed of the false idea that some particular dhamma or sequence of dhammas is an enduring entity, which citta then identifies with, and this makes sense as well. One big question for now, [possibly redundant of all my other questions...] and I will snip all of the good comments that were below: If certain types of conditions lead to panna, and others do not, what are the types of conditions that lead to panna? Obviously you are saying that no particular activity sets conditions that lead to panna; yet there seems to be an idea that hearing the dhamma itself does create kusala conditions. Can you explain why a particular activity - listening to or considering the dhamma - does give rise to panna, but sitting and considering the nature of the arising dhammas in an undistracted setting would not increase the likelihood of seeing into the nature of arising dhammas? Are the conditions such that there is no skill involved, no increasing of discernment that makes panna develop? What is the nature of those kusala conditions, and what causes them to arise? Best, Robert E. =============================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Rob Ep, > > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > > > R:> I would ask, how did the monk become skilled in samatha with > breath as > > object? > > .... > > S: By conditions for such - primarily through right understanding... ========================= #96371 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 1:34 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Scott. I will look at the files, but just to be clear: are rupas themselves physical in nature, or mental events, and do they rise and fall away in a pattern that resembles the experiences of physicalness that citta has, or is even the coherence of patterns of rupa totally stitched together via thought? Are you saying in fact that physicality does not exist? When you speak of the four great elements, are they physical in nature, ie, do they exist apart from citta, or do they only arise as rupa for citta? If you can answer this usefully, that will be a good head start, and yes, I will read more. Thanks, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep: > > Regarding: > > R: "This is pretty exciting material. It seems to be saying that the body is unreal - an illusion - and that in fact it reflects a projection of a series of mental events. If physical energy and action are really mental events, I don't see what other conclusion one can draw. Is that the Abhidhamma philosophy? And if so, what is the status of a rupa? Does it represent a physical attribute or a mental quality that is attributed to a conventional object?" > > Scott: Yes! 'The body' as experienced and then thought about as a whole, integral, integrated, controllable, and, coherent thing - 'my body' - is an illusion; 'the body' is a concept. ..... #96372 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 1:55 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 Dear Rob Ep, Regarding" R: "...are rupas themselves physical in nature, or mental events, and do they rise and fall away in a pattern that resembles the experiences of physicalness that citta has, or is even the coherence of patterns of rupa totally stitched together via thought? Are you saying in fact that physicality does not exist? When you speak of the four great elements, are they physical in nature, ie, do they exist apart from citta, or do they only arise as rupa for citta?.." Scott: Ruupa is 'form' or 'materiality' - physical in nature. Ruupa differs from naama in that it does not experience anything. It is not naama. There is 'mind-produced ruupa' such as speech, gesture, facial expression, for example. Naama and ruupa are related by dissociation condition, among others. Ruupa arises and falls away at a different rate than naama - seventeen moments of consciousness are said to arise and fall away in the time it takes for ruupa to arise and fall away. Ruupa does exist; it is one of the four paramattha dhammas. The four great elements are aspects of materiality. Ruupa exists apart from naama (citta) but citta (consciousness), along with kamma, temperature, and nutriment are the origination of ruupa. Sincerely, Scott. #96373 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 7:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 ing. Dear Nina, thanks for your reply. That cleared up a few things I was confusing. I'd like to ask if you could please give a bit more detail about the following: > > pt: -rupas (visible objects) themselves are considered to be > > inherently > > pleasant or unpleasant in abhidhamma, so I'm guessing this again has > > to do with vipaka. > ------- > N: Not the objects, but the experience of them is result of kamma. > Kamma is the cause of experiencing a pleasant sense object or an > unplasant sense object. pt: So, at what point does an experience of a rupa like visible object become pleasant/unpleasant? Thanks pt #96374 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 11:32 pm Subject: Re: Reminder - on ditthi gazita2002 ing. hallo Sarah, Lukas n all have been reading 'The Life of the Buddha' and in it there was this about ditthi, 'Bhikkhus, there are two kinds of wrong view, and when deities and human beings are in their grip, some hang back and some overreach; it is only those with vision that see. How do some hang back? Deities and human beings love being, delight in being, enjoy being; When the Dhamma is expounded to them for the ending of being, their hearts do not go out to it or acquire confidence, steadiness and decision. So some hang back. And how do some overreach? Some are ashamed, humiliated and disgusted by that same being, and they look forward to non-being in this way: "sirs, when with the dissolution of the body this self is cut off, annihilated and accordingly after deatth no longer is, that is the most peaceful, that is the goal superior to all, that is reality" So some overreach. And how do those with vision see? Here a bhikkhu sees whatever has come to being as come to being. By seeing it thus he has entered upon the way to dispassion for it, to the fading n ceasing of lust for it. that is how one with vision sees.' It49 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Lukas & all, > > L:>Can we spend some more time to discuss ditthi? > .... > S: Here's a quote about one kind of self-view from the commentaries to the Brahmajaala Sutta, transl. by B.Bodhi in "The All-Embracing Net of Views", (BPS) p.193. It's on the topic of "the inclination towards views (di.t.thiajjhaaasaya): > > Cy:" 'Then the following line of thought arose in the mind of a certain bhikkhu: 'It is said, sir, that material form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, mental formations are not-self, consciousness is not-self. What self, then, do kammas done without a self affect?' Then the Exalted One, discerning with his mind this bhikkhu's thought, addressed the bhikkhus: 'It is possible, bhikkhus, that a certain foolish man here, uncomprehending, immersed in ignorance and dominated by cravin, may imagine in his mind that he can over-shoot the dispensation of the Master, thus: 'It is said, sir, that material form is not-self,' etc. What do you think, bhikkhus, is material form permanent or impermanent?' ', etc. (M. 109)." > > Sub.Cy: " 'It is said,' etc.: this bhikkhu reveals his own disapproval of the emptiness of selfhood (attasu~n~nataa) as it is taught by the Exalted One. 'Kammas done without a self': kammas which are not done by any self, or kammas done by the aggregates which are not-self. He asks: 'If there is no self, and the aggregates are momentary, what self do kammas affect when they produce their fruits?' The meaning is: '*Who* experiences the fruit of kamma?' He is 'uncomprehending' because he is unskilled in the ariyan dhamma due to lack of learning, etc.; he is 'immersed in ignorance' because he has not abandoned ignorance due to lack of discipline in the ariyan dhamma; and he is 'dominated by craving' because he has come under the domination of craving, thinking: 'If there is no one called 'I', who experiences the fruit of the kamma done by me? But if there is an 'I', there may well be the enjoyment of the fruit.' > > "'In his mind': in a mind accompanied by clinging to a doctrine of self (attavaadupaaadaana). 'That he can overshoot the dispensation of the Master': though formations are momentary, the kamma and the fruit in the assemblage of dhammas (constituting an individual) are connected together by the fact that the fruit arises in the same continuum in which the kamma was originally done. But wrongly applying the method of unity to this connection, he concludes that there must be a single self-identical agent (kaaraka) and experiencer (vedaka) (in order to establish a connection between kamma and its fruit). Thus he conceives that he can pass beyond the dispensation of the Master, which elucidates the emptiness of a self and of any property of a self." > ***** > S: Do we sometimes try to "pass beyond the dispensation of the Master" by introducing a *Who*, by clinging to an idea of Self that experiences results, performs actions, makes effort or in other subtle or not-so-subtle ways? > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Perhaps others also have some favourite quotes on di.t.thi. > ======= > #96375 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions gazita2002 ing. hallo pt and nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Dear Nina, thanks for your reply. That cleared up a few things I was > confusing. I'd like to ask if you could please give a bit more detail > about the following: > > > > pt: -rupas (visible objects) themselves are considered to be > > > inherently > > > pleasant or unpleasant in abhidhamma, so I'm guessing this again has > > > to do with vipaka. > > ------- > > N: Not the objects, but the experience of them is result of kamma. > > Kamma is the cause of experiencing a pleasant sense object or an > > unplasant sense object. > > > pt: So, at what point does an experience of a rupa like visible object > become pleasant/unpleasant? > > Thanks > pt azita: the citta which sees visible object is a vipaka citta, either kusala or akusala, which I think you know already, and in the case of kusala it is a pleasant object and for akusala it is an unpleasant object. How much seeing goes on in a day, or an hour or even a minute? Millions of cittas and therefore lots of objects. How can 'we' possibly know whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant, unless of course we are Buddhas, and I say this bec. I think this is within the field of buddhas' wisdom only. I may be wrong and I'm sure someone will straigten out my view fairly quickly :-) I think we kknow more about pleasant/unpleasant object when it comes to bodily vipaka cittas. for example when we burn ourselves we know it hurts and therefore must be akusala vipaka. may all beings be happy azita #96376 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 12:18 am Subject: Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions szmicio Dear Azita > azita: the citta which sees visible object is a vipaka citta, either kusala or akusala, which I think you know already, and in the case of kusala it is a pleasant object and for akusala it is an unpleasant object. L: So there can be 2 kinds of vipaka in each sense base except mind-door. One is plesant vipaka and the second one is unplesant. But is there anything in the plesant vipaka which makes following javana-cittas kusala? > How much seeing goes on in a day, or an hour or even a minute? Millions of cittas and therefore lots of objects. L: What kind of pa~n~na can know each citta seperately? Or is it impossible because of nimitta? > How can 'we' possibly know whether the object is pleasant or >unpleasant, unless of course we are Buddhas, and I say this bec. I >think this is within the field of buddhas' wisdom only. L: What kind of wisdom is in field of buddha only? Can you list it? or give some links to visudhimagga or maybe other book. thanks Lukas #96377 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 1:40 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (51-53) nilovg Dear friends, sutta 52: Walshe DN 33.1.10(52) 'Three purities: of body, speech, mind (kaaya- socceyya'm, vacii-socceyya'm, mano-socceyya'm). ------- N: The Co states that, briefly, these are the pracitice of purity, the training in abstaining from wrong action through body, speech and mind. -------- Soceyyaaniiti sucibhaavakaraa soceyyappa.tipadaa dhammaa. Vitthaaro panettha ‘‘tattha katama.m kaayasoceyya.m? Paa.naatipaataa verama.nii’’tiaadinaa nayena vuttaana.m ti.n.na.m sucaritaana.m vasena veditabbo. -------- sutta 53 Walshe DN 33.1.10(53) 'Three qualities of the sage: *1053 as to body, speech, mind (kaaya-moneyya'm, vacii-moneyya'm, mano-moneyya'm). (Moneyya is derived from muni 'sage' .Moneyyaani: munibhaavakaraa dhammaa. Comy.) ------ The Co states that these three qualities are the abandonment of the three kinds of wrong conduct through the body: killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. Moreover, the abandonment of the four kinds of wrong conduct through speech: lying, slandering, rude speech and foolish babble. Moreover, abandonment of the three kinds of wrong conduct through the mind: covetousness, ill-will and wrong view. The Co and subco explain about the different degrees of abandoning. The sage abandons what is akusala, and performs what is kusala. He attains jhaana, develops vipassanaa and attains enlightenment. Subco: a quality of the sage is not doing what should not be done and doing what should be done through the body. Co: a quality of the sage is knowing the object that is bodily action, having clear comprehension (pari~n~na) of it, and the attainment of maggacitta. Moreover it is the abandonment of attachment to the body, and the cessation of bodily action by the attainment of the fourth jhaana. Subco: as to knowing the object of what is reckoned as body, there is reference to a text about the ‘Parts of the Body’: ‘there is in this body hair....’ (Vibhanga, 356). He understands as it really is the origin of the body, its cessation, unsatisfactoriness, danger and escape. This is the way of vipassanaa and by this he abandons attachment to the body. After having made to cease bodily activities by attainment of what should be reached, all these qualities occurring by way of the body are called the practice of a wise man through the body. As to qualities of the sage as to speech and mind, this is dealt with in the same way. The cessation of speech is by the attainment of the second jhaana. The cessation of mental activity is through nirodha samaapatti, the attainment of cessation. This is he temporary suspension of citta which can be attained by the anaagami and the arahat who have developed both samatha and vipassanaa. The subco explains that as to the object of mental activity known by pa~n~naa, this occurs with regard to eightyone worldly cittas, thus not with regard to the eight lokuttara cittas. ------- N: The sage should be aware of and directly understand whatever citta appears among the worldly cittas. We read in the Gradual Sayings (I, 271) about the three purities of body, speech and mind. We read as to purity of mind: The same is said about malevolence, and the other hindrances. Insight should be developed also of all kinds of akusala, otherwise they cannot be eradicated. ---------- Co: Moneyyaaniiti munibhaavakaraa moneyyappa.tipadaa dhammaa. Tesa.m vitthaaro ‘‘tattha katama.m kaayamoneyya.m? Tividhakaayaduccaritassa pahaana.m kaayamoneyya.m, tividha.m kaayasucarita.m kaayamoneyya.m..... ********* Nina. #96378 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Azita, Lukas, Op 6-mrt-2009, om 4:42 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > N: Not the objects, but the experience of them is result of kamma. > > Kamma is the cause of experiencing a pleasant sense object or an > > unplasant sense object. > > pt: So, at what point does an experience of a rupa like visible object > become pleasant/unpleasant? -------- N: The object is pleasant or unpleasant, and the experience is kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. It is impossible to find out, and moreover, it is not helpful to find out. An example: we perceive a beautiful flower and think: this must be a pleasant object. However, through the nose we may experience a disagreeable stench and through the eyes a beautifull colour, but not at the same time. Only one object through one doorway is experienced at a time. As Azita says, there are so many cittas, experiencing different objects. It is best to develop understanding of whatever object appears in oprder to see it as just a conditioned dhamma. We do not need to name it nor to find out whether it is a desirable sense object or an undesirable sense object. The goal is detachment from the idea of self. Nina. #96379 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 2:39 am Subject: Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions szmicio Dear Nina There is kusala vipaka that experiences unplesant object. And akusala vipaka that experiences unplesant object. Can akusala vipaka experiences plesant object? I've got some doubt in this matter: Vibhangapali, khandhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m states about ruupas: " Ekavidhena ruupakkhandho – ....... ......Is material(ruupa.m). Is mundane(lokiya.m). Is the object of the defilements(saasava.m). Is the object of the fetters(sa.myojaniya.m). Is the object of the ties(ganthaniya.m). Is the object of the floods(oghaniya.m) Is object of bonds(yoganiya.m,) Is object for hindrances(niivara.niya.m) Is the object of perverions(paraama.t.tha.m) Is the object of atachments(upaadaaniya.m) Is the objects of corruptions(sa.mkilesika.m) ............... Is not corrupt, is the object of the corruptions (asa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesika.m)" L: "Is not corrupt, is the object of the corruptions". In paticcasamupada there was said that vedana paccaya tanha. and here it doesnt mean that vedana is always with tanha. The same here with rupa i think so. It can be plesant or unplesant, and on account of it there can be kusala and akusala vipaka. But if rupa is plesant, it implies that it may be corrupted somehow. That's what bother me. Could you give me some more explanations? My best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear pt, Azita, Lukas, > Op 6-mrt-2009, om 4:42 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > > > N: Not the objects, but the experience of them is result of kamma. > > > Kamma is the cause of experiencing a pleasant sense object or an > > > unplasant sense object. > > > > pt: So, at what point does an experience of a rupa like visible object > > become pleasant/unpleasant? > -------- > N: The object is pleasant or unpleasant, and the experience is kusala > vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. #96380 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 4:21 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Sarah, connie, Regarding: "...kaayika.m viiriya.m tadapi viiriyasambojjha"ngo, yadapi cetasika.m viiriya.m tadapi viiriyasambojjha"ngo..." Scott: Do you know whether 'kaayika.m' here is in reference to materiality or to the 'mental body'? Sincerely, Scott. #96381 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 6:55 am Subject: Ann's Questions 1. nilovg Dear friends, Ann's Questions. Ann: Thinking about the Dhamma is so much easier than awareness and understanding. Kh S: Is trying to have sati not motivated by lobha? This is a hindrance. There may be very subtle lobha, and only pa~n~naa can see this. Nina: When there is not enough pa~n~naa to see this, we may go all the wrong way. Kh S: The understanding grows little by little. Jon: Hearing and considering includes thinking. Kh S: Is this not daily life? You are listening and thinking. Ann: Thinking with very subtle attachment. Kh S: That is another way of lobha. ---------- Kh S: There are nimittas of each of the five khandhas. Visible object appears as nimitta. Each visible object appears so shortly, it arises and falls away in splitseconds. One can understand visible object when seeing. We do not have to say which one since it has passed. Anything which appears does so in splitseconds. What remains is the image or nimitta. We live in the nimitta world. It is as if we are lost in a forest, no way out. N: We are not hopelessly lost. There can be awareness of nimitta. Kh S: Nimitta of a reality. Without reality can there be an image of reality? There are many visible objects arising and falling away before there can be an image of Khun Nina. Sa~n~naa remembers it. ----------- Kh S: Is the understanding of a reality right now sufficient so as to condition direct awareness of a characteristic of reality at this moment? The development of understanding will lead to the direct experience of realities, by itself, not by anyone. Ann: I have to consider this. Kh S: Citta and cetasikas consider. N: No self is considering but we still think of self. This is a problem. Kh S: Thinking of self will be less when there is more understanding. There is no other way. N: I heard on a recording: there is no other way: listen again and again, and understand more and more. Ann: sometimes there is more understanding and often there is not. Kh S: for lobha? Ann: for lobha. ******* Nina. #96382 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 6-mrt-2009, om 11:39 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > There is kusala vipaka that experiences unplesant object. And > akusala vipaka that experiences unplesant object. Can akusala > vipaka experiences plesant object? ------- N: No, this is not so. Kusala vipaakacitta always experiences a desirable or pleasant object, akusala vipaakacitta always experiences an unpleasant object. ---------- > > I've got some doubt in this matter: > > Vibhangapali, khandhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m states about > ruupas: > " > Ekavidhena ruupakkhandho – ....... > ......Is material(ruupa.m). > > Is mundane(lokiya.m). > > Is the object of the defilements(saasava.m)..... > > Is not corrupt, is the object of the corruptions > (asa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesika.m)" > > L: "Is not corrupt, is the object of the corruptions". ------- N: Ruupa itself is not a defilement, but it can be the object of the corruptions. -------- > > L: In paticcasamupada there was said that vedana paccaya tanha. and > here it doesnt mean that vedana is always with tanha. ------ N: No, of course not. When we consider the paticcasamupada we have to remember that here are given specific conditions which show that we are in the cycle of birth and death. We cannot apply this or that link in any other context, we have to be careful in what context we are. --------- > > L: The same here with rupa i think so. It can be plesant or > unplesant, and on account of it there can be kusala and akusala > vipaka. ------- N: Perhaps you mix here vipaaka which is mere result, and kusala citta/akusala citta which react to the object in a wholesome way (with wise attention) or in an unwholesome way (with unwise attention). After seeing, the javana cittas arise in that process. --------- > > L: But if rupa is plesant, it implies that it may be corrupted > somehow. > That's what bother me. ------ N: No, why? Rupa could not be corrupted. It is the manner of attention to it that can be corrupted. -------- > > L:Could you give me some more explanations? ------- N: Rupa does not experience anything so how could it be corrupted? Rupa does not know: attachmenbt wants me, aversion dislikes me. It is nama that can be corrupted. Remember the tripartite classifications of dhammas: akusala dhamma, kusala dhamma, avyaakata dhamma (indeterminate dhamma). The last one includes: vipaakacittas, kiriyacittas, rupa, nibbaana. I liked your quote of the Khanasutta. It helps us to see conditions for the experience of unpleasant objects or pleasant objects. ****** Nina. #96383 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 7:50 am Subject: Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions szmicio Dear Nina > > There is kusala vipaka that experiences unplesant object. And > > akusala vipaka that experiences unplesant object. Can akusala > > vipaka experiences plesant object? > ------- > N: No, this is not so. Kusala vipaakacitta always experiences a > desirable or pleasant object, akusala vipaakacitta always experiences > an unpleasant object. > ---------- L: Well, I've made a mistake here. I mean: kusala vipaka that experiences plesant object and akusala vipaka that experiences unplesant object. And question was Can akusala vipaka experience plesant object? But now you answer that. --- > > I've got some doubt in this matter: > > > > Vibhangapali, khandhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m states about > > ruupas: > > " > > Ekavidhena ruupakkhandho – ....... > > ......Is material(ruupa.m). > > > > Is mundane(lokiya.m). > > > > Is the object of the defilements(saasava.m)..... > > > > Is not corrupt, is the object of the corruptions > > (asa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesika.m)" > > > > L: "Is not corrupt, is the object of the corruptions". > ------- > N: Ruupa itself is not a defilement, but it can be the object of the > corruptions. > -------- > > > > L: In paticcasamupada there was said that vedana paccaya tanha. and > > here it doesnt mean that vedana is always with tanha. > ------ > N: No, of course not. When we consider the paticcasamupada we have > to remember that here are given specific conditions which show that > we are in the cycle of birth and death. We cannot apply this or that > link in any other context, we have to be careful in what context we are. > > L: The same here with rupa i think so. It can be plesant or > > unplesant, and on account of it there can be kusala and akusala > > vipaka. > ------- > N: Perhaps you mix here vipaaka which is mere result, and kusala > citta/akusala citta which react to the object in a wholesome way > (with wise attention) or in an unwholesome way (with unwise > attention). After seeing, the javana cittas arise in that process. > --------- L: Generally that's only vipaka which bothers me. javanas are pretty clear to me. my question was does kusala vipaka can experience unplesant object? but you answer it now. thanks Nina. I think i need to hear more about vipaka and kammaja-rupas. That's still not clear enough to me. How rupa can be plesant? bye Lukas #96384 From: "connie" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 9:13 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. nichiconn Dear Scott, Regarding: "...kaayika.m viiriya.m tadapi viiriyasambojjha"ngo, yadapi cetasika.m viiriya.m tadapi viiriyasambojjha"ngo..." Scott: Do you know whether 'kaayika.m' here is in reference to materiality or to the 'mental body'? c: I think, as with torpor, body must refer to the three mental aggregates (feeling, perception & volitional formations). peace, connie #96385 From: "connie" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 1:29 pm Subject: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. nichiconn dear friends, Is meditation really something to monkey around with? Pts xxi 23. There are two kinds of persons who have reached the discriminations, and two who have had previous practice: one is well taught and the other is not. He who is well taught surpasses the other, exceeds him, is more distinguished; and his knowledge is divisible. dsg #4951 ...<< People who think they experience what the Buddha did without knowing what he taught in the Tipitaka, without learning the dhamma as he taught even through the oral tradition would be like some monkeys I saw near some meditation centers where they see all the people moving S_L_O_W_L_L_Y in silence and start to do the same. I suppose they gain the same insight. >>... lobha can't even begin to imitate, but is practiced. sitting is just a posture. rupa doesn't sit. breath bodies don't sit. Pts iii 242. When he adverts, he is acquainted with those bodies. When he knows, he is acquainted with those bodies. When he sees, ... reviews, ... steadies his cognizance, ... resolves with faith, ... exerts energy, ... establishes (founds) mindfulness, ... concentrates cognizance, ... When he understands with understanding, ... When he directly knows what is to be directly known, ... When he fully understands what is to be fully understood, ... [184] When he abandons what is to be abandoned, ... When he develops what is to be developed, ... When he realizes what is to be realized, he is acquainted with those bodies. That is how those bodies are experienced. peace, connie #96386 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 2:05 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 Dear connie, Regarding: "...kaayika.m viiriya.m tadapi viiriyasambojjha"ngo, yadapi cetasika.m viiriya.m tadapi viiriyasambojjha"ngo..." c: I think, as with torpor, body must refer to the three mental aggregates (feeling, perception & volitional formations). Scott: Thanks and yeah. I thought so, but wanted a little confirmation. I think this is a very important point when it comes to looking at 'energy.' I think that the same argument applied to the mental factor of torpor applies to that of energy - they are of opposite characteristic I would say. Here's the argument regarding torpor from Atthasaalinii (pp.486-487): "...Therefore (owing to the phrase 'of kaaya' not determining matter) *it should not be said that matter is torpor*. Here in 'indisposition of kaaya' kaaya means mental kaaya. If so, then why is 'sleep, drowsiness' said? - for the mental kaaya does not sleep, does not blink eyelids. This pair of words has been said as being the result or fruit of that torpor, just as the sexes, etc., are given as the result of the feminine controlling faculty, so sleep, drowsiness, are given as results of torpor, called sickness, of this mental kaaya. Indeed when there is torpor, there is also sleep and so on; thus by a figure of speech torpor, though immaterial, has been described as 'sleep, drowsiness, slumbering, somnolence' - drowsiness as causing the movements of the eyelids, etc. Thus by this word-definition also, this meaning (of torpor being immaterial) has been accomplished. Thus torpor is not a material quality." Scott: Given that energy is also 'not a material quality', it returns to an ability - that of pa~n~naa, not of a person - to know right energy at the point of mental inception before it can be said that the movements of the so-called body can be said to reflect right effort. Sincerely, Scott. #96387 From: "connie" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 2:30 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. nichiconn ps Scott, don't ask me to explain this! Pts III 240. Body: there are two bodies: the mental body and the material body. What is the mental body? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention, *and materiality* are the mental body, and also what are called cognizance formations: these are the mental body. What is the material body? The four great entities and the materiality derived by clinging from the four great entities, in-breath and out-breath and the sign for anchoring [mindfulness], and also what are called body formations: this is the material body. peace, connie #96388 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 2:43 pm Subject: Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions gazita2002 hallo Lukas, Nina, Howard, I see both Nina and Howard have made comment to yr questions, but I will try to answer as well. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Azita > > > azita: the citta which sees visible object is a vipaka citta, either kusala or akusala, which I think you know already, and in the case of kusala it is a pleasant object and for akusala it is an unpleasant object. > > L: So there can be 2 kinds of vipaka in each sense base except mind-door. One is plesant vipaka and the second one is unplesant. > But is there anything in the plesant vipaka which makes following javana-cittas kusala? azita; the following javana cittas can be either kusala or akusala despite the object being pleasant. eg: we can experience a very pleasant object and in the following javana have lobha for that object, which is akusala. > > > > How much seeing goes on in a day, or an hour or even a minute? Millions of cittas and therefore lots of objects. > > L: What kind of pa~n~na can know each citta seperately? Or is it impossible because of nimitta? > > > How can 'we' possibly know whether the object is pleasant or >unpleasant, unless of course we are Buddhas, and I say this bec. I >think this is within the field of buddhas' wisdom only. > > L: What kind of wisdom is in field of buddha only? Can you list it? > or give some links to visudhimagga or maybe other book. > azita: there is a sutta but I'm unable to list it as I cannot remember which one. In this sutta the Buddha picks up a handful of leaves in a forest and states that this is what he has revealed to us, but that his knowledge consists of as many leaves as there are in the forest itself. I personally think that is very impressive. Therefore unless we are a buddha there is knowledge that we can never experience. may all beings be happy azita #96389 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 2:59 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. gazita2002 hallo Connie, this following paragraph made me laugh, bec in the past I have done one of these slow 'vipassana' courses - and I must admit I did feel a little silly spending a whole weekend doing things slowly. we dont have monkeys in my country but I'm sure if there were any cheeky kids watching, they would have been imitating us --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear friends, > Is meditation really something to monkey around with? > dsg #4951 ...<< People who think they experience what the Buddha did without knowing what he taught in the Tipitaka, without learning the dhamma as he taught even through the oral tradition would be like some monkeys I saw near some meditation centers where they see all the people moving S_L_O_W_L_L_Y in silence and start to do the same. I suppose they gain the same insight. >>... > > lobha can't even begin to imitate, but is practiced. > > sitting is just a posture. rupa doesn't sit. breath bodies don't sit. may all beings be happy azita #96390 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 9:28 pm Subject: Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions szmicio Dear Azita > > L: What kind of wisdom is in field of buddha only? Can you list it? > > or give some links to visudhimagga or maybe other book. > > > > azita: there is a sutta but I'm unable to list it as I cannot remember which one. In this sutta the Buddha picks up a handful of leaves in a forest and states that this is what he has revealed to us, but that his knowledge consists of as many leaves as there are in the forest itself. I personally think that is very impressive. Therefore unless we are a buddha there is knowledge that we can never experience. L: Yes I know that one. It's about Four Noble Truths. It always reminds me about useless of any thinking and also about importance of understanding which know seeing and hearing right now. Buddha stress so much right understanding and not to be involved in anything which doesnt lead to liberation from dukkha. I like this Sutta very much. Simsapa Sutta: Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the simsapa1 forest. Then, picking up a few simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "What do you think, monks: Which are more numerous, the few simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the simsapa forest?" "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the simsapa forest are more numerous." "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them. "And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them. "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.031.than.html #96391 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 7:07 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. philofillet Hi Connie Why did you write this Connie? Is DSG defined by the need to endlessly debate about meditation? Finally things are calming down in a sensible way to there can be discussion of Abhhidhamma and other texts, but is there some need to stir the finally placid waters? I thought Scott was doing so last week too when he asked Sarah about whether there could possibly be jhana masters. Do you miss the frey? I really don't get it. As I said to Scott once, I think controversy is addictive! Comparing Buddhist practicioners to monkeys is really bad behaviour I think no matter what you think of their practice. It's akin to another comparison to cockroaches I remember here. I personally like listening to the Sayadaws, but share your doubts about their way of practicing at those retreats. But I would never refer to compare them to monkeys. Anyways, perhaps someone will bite your bait even more firmly than I did and there will be a fresh outbreak of meditation related debate! I'm still reading DSG because I like reading about Abhidhamma. There is no better place to read and discuss Abhidhamma. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear friends, > Is meditation really something to monkey around with? > dsg #4951 ...<< People who think they experience what the Buddha did without knowing what he taught in the Tipitaka, without learning the dhamma as he taught even through the oral tradition would be like some monkeys I saw near some meditation centers where they see all the people moving S_L_O_W_L_L_Y in silence and start to do the same. I suppose they gain the same insight. >>... > #96392 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 9:01 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. philofillet Hi again I reread the below more carefully (I read it at first hurriedly at work) > dsg #4951 ...<< People who think they experience what the Buddha did without knowing what he taught in the Tipitaka, without learning the dhamma as he taught even through the oral tradition would be like some monkeys I saw near some meditation centers where they see all the people moving S_L_O_W_L_L_Y in silence and start to do the same. I suppose they gain the same insight. >>... And I see the comparison isn't as derogatory as I first thought. So never mind. Still, it feels like a desire to open up a can of spicy worms when nice bland but ultimately beneficial fare is on the table! The mind hungers for spicy fare in various ways, I think. (Thus I always have a look to see if something controversial is happening at DSG when I drop by to read.) Metta, Phil p.s no need for an explanation, take this as my apology for overreacting. #96393 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 10:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for your reply. Also thanks Lukas and Azita for your contributions. One last question for now that I have regarding vipaaka - what is the process that transforms intention and action into vipaaka? I understand that vipaaka needs appropriate conditions to arise, but what is the actual process that for example transforms unwholesome intention and deed (input) into akusala vipaaka (output) for example? Regarding ADL chapter 19: It's said that a prompted citta is "(prompted, by someone else or by oneself)". What does it mean "prompted by oneself" in practical terms? Would that be like first thinking "It's a good thing to give to monks so I should do it," and then the prompted maha-kusala citta arises? Thanks pt #96394 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 10:50 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. ptaus1 Hi Scott, could you please explain a bit more about ruupa being "physical in nature". I'm confused about several aspects here: I thought that ruupa (or kalapa) is basically a process that acts as an interface between physical and mental worlds. So, a kalapa lasting 17 moments would basically stand for the rate at which the mechanical energy of physical phenomena such as light waves, sound waves, etc, is converted by physical senses (eye, ear, etc) into electrical impulses, which are then processed by the brain, which converts them into mental-domain events. In case of the ear for example – in response to sound waves (changes in air pressure), tiny hair follicles in the inner ear move, and that movement results in electrical impulses, so mechanical energy of sound waves is transformed into electrical impulses, which are then taken by the auditory nerve to the brain, which then processes it to extract component frequencies, which are then mentally understood as a certain sound. So, in that example, I could easily understand a kalapa to stand for the rate, or speed, at which 1 whole process of this mechanical-to-mental transformation happens. However, if you are saying that ruupas are in fact entirely physical in nature, then are we talking about molecules and atoms here? Or maybe kalapas are more related to quanta? I mean, I'm having trouble reconciling ruupas as physical matter with modern science, since physical world is probably the only domain where science has actually made some progress. Thanks pt > Scott: Ruupa is 'form' or 'materiality' - physical in nature. Ruupa differs from naama in that it does not experience anything. It is not naama. There is 'mind-produced ruupa' such as speech, gesture, facial expression, for example. Naama and ruupa are related by dissociation condition, among others. Ruupa arises and falls away at a different rate than naama - seventeen moments of consciousness are said to arise and fall away in the time it takes for ruupa to arise and fall away. Ruupa does exist; it is one of the four paramattha dhammas. The four great elements are aspects of materiality. Ruupa exists apart from naama (citta) but citta (consciousness), along with kamma, temperature, and nutriment are the origination of ruupa. #96395 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 11:57 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. philofillet Hi again again Oops. Now I see Connie's post was in response to Suan's. So I am the monkey in all this! Shouldn't read posts on the run, I'll never learn! :) metta, phil #96396 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 12:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all of us who 'monkey' around, --- On Sat, 7/3/09, Phil wrote: >Oops. Now I see Connie's post was in response to Suan's. So I am the monkey in all this! Shouldn't read posts on the run, I'll never learn! :) .... S: Or on the swing? :-) And as reminders to all us monkeys: SN 12:61 (Bodhi transl): "Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still another, so too that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and 'consciousness' arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night." ... And as quoted before by Leo, without the development of satipatthana, we're all like monkeys being trapped by the enticing sense experiences, forever ensnared by Mara: "SN XLVII.7 Makkata Sutta The Monkey "There are in the Himalayas, the king of mountains, difficult, uneven areas where neither monkeys nor human beings wander. There are difficult, uneven areas where monkeys wander, but not human beings. There are level stretches of land, delightful, where both monkeys and human beings wander. In such spots hunters set a tar trap in the monkeys' tracks, in order to catch some monkeys. Those monkeys who are not foolish or careless by nature, when they see the tar trap, will keep their distance. But any monkey who is foolish & careless by nature comes up to the tar trap and grabs it with its paw, which then gets stuck there. Thinking, 'I'll free my paw,' he grabs it with his other paw. That too gets stuck. Thinking, 'I'll free both of my paws,' he grabs it with his foot. That too gets stuck. Thinking, 'I'll free both of my paws and my foot,' he grabs it with his other foot. That too gets stuck. Thinking, 'I'll free both of my paws and my feet as well,' he grabs it with his mouth. That too gets stuck. So the monkey, snared in five ways, lies there whimpering, having fallen on misfortune, fallen on ruin, a prey to whatever the hunter wants to do with him. Then the hunter, without releasing the monkey, skewers him right there, picks him up, and goes off as he likes. "This is what happens to anyone who wanders into what is not his proper range and is the territory of others. "For this reason, you should not wander into what is not your proper range and is the territory of others. In one who wanders into what is not his proper range and is the territory of others, Mara gains an opening, Mara gains a foothold. And what, for a monk, is not his proper range and is the territory of others? The five strands of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable by the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable by the ear... Aromas cognizable by the nose... Flavors cognizable by the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable by the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These, for a monk, are not his proper range and are the territory of others. "Wander, monks, in what is your proper range, your own ancestral territory. In one who wanders in what is his proper range, his own ancestral territory, Mara gains no opening, Mara gains no foothold. And what, for a monk, is his proper range, his own ancestral territory? The four frames of reference. Which four? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings, … remains focused on mind, ... remains focused on mental objects — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This, for a monk, is his proper range, his own ancestral territory." Metta, Sarah p.s thx to Suan & Connie for enticing a comment at least:-) ....... #96397 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats sarahprocter... Dear Connie, --- On Thu, 5/3/09, connie wrote: >just finished reading the path of discrimination. .. whoa. one of the times i had to get up and leave it i realized i was shaking my head, muttering 'too much, too much'. go, puppet! .... S: A little too cryptic....can you elaborate? A quote of the 'too much'? .... >reckon My Knee's just another standpoint for views. certainly, there's no Such Thing. the bike's not really a heavenly mansion, either but i'm a daydreamer. ... S: I know what you mean - My Knee with its special clicks and quirks, My hip with it's "oh so special problems", My Neck with its signs of degeneration.....we could go through the rest of MY Body. Then we wonder why the rupas of This Special Body come first in the Satipatthana Sutta. What other rupas do we care so much about and put so much on the pedestal for that Standpoint for Views? As for the heavenly mansions, bikes, hiking up mountains again, celestial anythings or whatever fantasy still lingers....like for Nanda, by the time they're available they'll have lost all appeal with a little insight... Metta, Sarah =========== #96398 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 3:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, Oops! --- On Sat, 7/3/09, sarah abbott wrote: >p.s thx to Suan & Connie for enticing a comment at least:-) ... S: I was so busy dreaming of enticing objects.... Thanks to them for *eliciting* your comments... Back to the enticing objects again... S. #96399 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- On Thu, 5/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >>S:I referred to how it's not just a matter of having the helpful text on the table or even listening to the Buddha. It all comes back to the wise attention (yoniso manasikaara) at such times or reading or listening in order for there to be suta-maya pa~n~naa (understanding based on listening) and cinta-maya pa~n~naa (understanding based on considering) , leading to bhaavanaa-maya pa~n~naa(understand ing based on development) arise. ... R:> But I would assume that one is not in control of that either - that one cannot *pay* wise attention - it just arises for the citta of the moment. ... S: Exactly! There is either wise or unwise attention and it all depends on conditions "of the moment" as you put it. ... >>S: Back to Ananda, .......Hence, there is, through that non-confusion, proof of his insight; or else there is, through the insight generated, due to an absence of confusion, at the time of hearing, proof of insight at a time subsequent thereto - likewise, through non-forgetfulness, proof of mindfulness. " .... R: >Who judges the non-confusion I wonder? Can't Ananda think he is unconfused and be subject to delusion/wrong view? .... S: Not once he became a sotapanna.... still many moments of ignorance, but now delusion with wrong view. It's the right understanding that judges and knows the confusion vs non-confusion, the wisdom vs the ignorance. Again, by condtions... Pnce there is the understanding of dhammas arising by conditions, no more doubt or confusion about them... ... >>S: And a little later... > "...the individual whose mind is distracted, even upon being spoken to when all other (conditions) have been satisfied, states "(Such) was not heard by me, please state it again". > > I'm sure the last comment is familiar to us all! ... R:> Very. Both giving and receiving. .... S: We certainly agree on this note! Metta, Sarah ====== =========== * Howard's signature blocks: == A change in anything is a change in everything (Anonymous) == Entrances to holiness are everywhere. The possibility of ascent is all the time, even at unlikely times and through unlikely places. There is no place without the Presence. (From Mishkan T'filah, the new Reform prayerbook) == He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none - such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. (From the Uraga Sutta) == Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains "going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it" and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible. (From the Avarana Sutta) == Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream. (From the Diamond Sutra) == When knowing what is to be known, he doesn't construe an [object as] known. He doesn't construe an unknown. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-known. He doesn't construe a knower. (The Buddha, speaking of himself in the Kalakarama Sutta) == See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance. (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) == Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. (From the Sacitta Sutta) == "Rouse yourself! Sit up! What good is there in sleeping? For those afflicted by disease (suffering), struck by the arrow (craving), what sleep is there? "Rouse yourself! Sit up! Resolutely train yourself to attain peace. Do not let the king of death, seeing you are careless, lead you astray and dominate you. "Go beyond this clinging, to which devas and men are attached, and (the pleasures) they seek. Do not waste your opportunity. When the opportunity has passed they sorrow when consigned to Niraya-hell. "Negligence is a taint, and so is the (greater) negligence growing from it. By earnestness and understanding withdraw the arrow (of sensual passions)." (From the Utthana Sutta) == "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' (From AN 2.19) ==