#96400 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 3:53 am Subject: Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions gazita2002 hallo Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Azita > > > > L: What kind of wisdom is in field of buddha only? Can you list it? > > > or give some links to visudhimagga or maybe other book. > > > > > > > azita: there is a sutta but I'm unable to list it as I cannot remember which one. In this sutta the Buddha picks up a handful of leaves in a forest and states that this is what he has revealed to us, but that his knowledge consists of as many leaves as there are in the forest itself. I personally think that is very impressive. Therefore unless we are a buddha there is knowledge that we can never experience. > > L: Yes I know that one. It's about Four Noble Truths. > It always reminds me about useless of any thinking and also about importance of understanding which know seeing and hearing right now. > Buddha stress so much right understanding and not to be involved in anything which doesnt lead to liberation from dukkha. > azita: most of the day we are thinking 'useless' thoughts, but not to worry, thinking itself is a reality and can be known by wisdom, just as seeing and hearing etc can be known by panna. The more I learn about Buddha's teachings the more I am in awe of his wisdom and compassion. Thank you for the sutta, I like this one too. > I like this Sutta very much. Simsapa Sutta: > may all beings be happy azita #96401 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 4:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, --- On Fri, 6/3/09, szmicio wrote: >L: What kind of wisdom is in field of buddha only? Can you list it? or give some links to visudhimagga or maybe other book. .... [S: Lots of quotes in 'Useful Posts' under 'Omniscience'.] Here's another one from the Sub-cy to the Brahmajaala Sutta (transl. by B.Bodhi, BPS,p.123), which caught my eye the other day: "Query: .....how is possible for a single, limited type of knowledge to penetrate without omission the entire range of the knowable with its inconceivable, immeasurable sub-divisions? "Reply: Who says the Buddha-knowledge is limited? Like the knowable itself the Buddha-knowledge is infinite. For it is said: 'As far as that knowledge extends, so far does the knowable extend; as far as the knowable extends, so far does that knowledge extend' (Pts.1.i.72). It may be objected that if the knowable, with its numerous sub-divisions by way of class, plane, specific nature, etc., and by way of direction, place, time, etc., is apprehended in succession, it is impossible to penetrate it in its totality, without remainder. "But that is not so. Why? Because whatever it is that the Exalted One wishes to know, whether in its entirety or in part, that he knows by direct experience through the unimpeded coursing (of his knowledge) in that object. And on the basis of the statement, 'The knowledge of the Exalted Buddha is subject to his wish,' it cannot be denied that the Exalted Buddha, who is always concentrated with an undistracted mind, is able to know by direct experience whatever he wishes to. "For the Buddha's knowledge, at the time he is comprehending numerous dhammas, does not occur in an undifferentiated mode like the cognition of those seeing a painting from a distance or the insight of those contemplating all dhammas as non-self. "This should be accepted, for the spiritual power (aanubhaava) of the Buddha-knowledge is inconceivable. Thence it is said: 'the objective domain of the Buddha is inconceivable (A.IV.8.7). This is the ruling:- "With the abandoning of the entire obstruction of the knowable, the Exalted One gained the unobstructed knowledge which occurs subject to his wish and is capable of comprehending all dhammas in all their modes. By means of this knowledge the Exalted One was capable of penetrating all dhammas in continuous succession (santaanena); therefore he was omniscient or all-knowing in the way fire is called 'all-consuming' through its ability to burn all its fuel in continuous succession. He was not, however, omniscient in the sense that he could comprehend all dhammas simultaneously." ***** S: For a very detailed commentary on this, including on the distinction between 'unobstructed knowledge' (anaavara.na-~naa.na) vs 'omniscient knowledge' (sabba~n~nula-~naa.na) and the six kinds of knowledge "unshared by disciples" can be found in n.7 to Ch VII of the Visuddhimagga, transl. by Nanamoli. It comes from the Tiika to the Visuddhimagga. The kinds of knowledge, as mentioned there are: 1. what faculties prevail in beings 2. knowledge of the inclinations and tendencies of beings 3. knowledge of the Twin Marvel 4. knowledge of the attainment of the great compassion 5. omniscient knowledge 6. unobstructed knowledge Metta, Sarah ======== #96402 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 4:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder - on ditthi sarahprocter... Hi Azita, Lukas & all, Great quote you gave below, thanks! 'The Life of the Buddha' is full of gems, isn't it? So the 'hangers back' who 'delight in being', tend to 'eternalism', not understanding dhammas as impermanent now. That's the wrong view that may arise even now as we speak, taking what is seen to be something lasting, like 'My Knee'. And then the 'over-reachers' are disgusted with life, with that 'Knee', for example, and like Diighanaka (MN 74)who declared that nothing was acceptable to him, still cling to a wrong view of atta. Doesn't that view also arise when we think 'my life', 'my leg', 'the house' is so futile because it's all dukkha anyway or something along those lines? Another quote on this from the part of the commentaries to the Brahmajaala Sutta I was quoting from the other day (Bodhi transl, BPS. p.192): " 'Just as if he were weighing the inclination of beings with a pair of scales': 'inclination' here is the inclination towards views (di.t.thiajjhaasaya). For the inclination of beings subject to defilement is twofold: towards eternalism and towards annihilationism. And though this twofold inclination is divided into numerous classes insofar as it arises in the immeasurable domain of knowledge of innumerable beings in innumerable world systems, the Exalted One has delimited it with his knowledge of omniscience and summarized it into sixty-two categories beginning with the four types of eternalists, just as if he had placed it on a measuring scale." Metta, Sarah --- On Fri, 6/3/09, gazita2002 wrote: >have been reading 'The Life of the Buddha' and in it there was this about ditthi, >'Bhikkhus, there are two kinds of wrong view, and when deities and human beings are in their grip, some hang back and some overreach; it is only those with vision that see. How do some hang back? Deities and human beings love being, delight in being, enjoy being; When the Dhamma is expounded to them for the ending of being, their hearts do not go out to it or acquire confidence, steadiness and decision. So some hang back. And how do some overreach? Some are ashamed, humiliated and disgusted by that same being, and they look forward to non-being in this way: "sirs, when with the dissolution of the body this self is cut off, annihilated and accordingly after deatth no longer is, that is the most peaceful, that is the goal superior to all, that is reality" So some overreach. And how do those with vision see? Here a bhikkhu sees whatever has come to being as come to being. By seeing it thus he has entered upon the way to dispassion for it, to the fading n ceasing of lust for it. that is how one with vision sees.' It49 ================ #96403 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 5:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. jonoabb Hi Robert E > 1/ What if one is naturally inclined to engage with bhavana through > anapanasati and is as naturally inclined to do so as anyone who is > naturally inclined to read or discuss or hear a sutta explained? Why > cannot these two things live together, rather than have meditation > excluded as akusala? In the world of momentary dhammas, there are moments that are bhavana and there are moments that are not bhavana. But there are no moments of engaging with bhavana in this way or that. That suggests an activity-based approach which, as you konw, is not part of the teachings as I understand them. > 2/ I cannot escape the conclusion that rather than all things being > equal, that there is a definite philosophy here that sutta and com > study are a more kusala activity than meditation, and that it is a > choice of activity, rather than a "no-choice" policy. It seems like a > choice disguised as a non-choice to me; ie, a preference. I must disagree ;-)) There is no "philosophy" here of sutta and commentary study as an *activity*. Furthermore, the ethical quality or strength of a given activity cannot be generalised about, as it's something that depends on the circumstances of the particular case. But what is mentioned here, and it's something I'm sure you would agree with, is that the development of the path is a matter of somehow gaining the knowledge that is found expressed in the teachings. So, yes, an interest in the meaning of the words spoken by the Buddha is definitely part of the "philosophy" here, as providing a proper basis for the development of understanding. Do you have a problem with that ? ;-)) Jon #96404 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 5:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, Thanks for your kind comments. --- On Fri, 6/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >I think I am getting a clearer idea of what this view is, and at least the view itself is one that seems to be the essence of Buddhism: that every arising experience is a conditioned temporary one, and that it has no enduring essence or substantial nature. I can also understand the idea that "self" is composed of the false idea that some particular dhamma or sequence of dhammas is an enduring entity, which citta then identifies with, and this makes sense as well. ... S: Yes, and you've put it beautifully in your own words. ... R:>One big question for now, [possibly redundant of all my other questions... ] and I will snip all of the good comments that were below: If certain types of conditions lead to panna, and others do not, what are the types of conditions that lead to panna? ... S: It boils down to past and present panna as the condition for more panna! ... R: Obviously you are saying that no particular activity sets conditions that lead to panna; yet there seems to be an idea that hearing the dhamma itself does create kusala conditions. ... S: There has to have been the hearing of particular sounds (seeing of particular visible objects), followed by the wise attention with panna. Only Buddhas do not need (in their last life) to have heard the Dhamma for such insight and enlightenment to occur. So, we have to hear about realities (dhammas) as anatta for there to be the wise consideration of them as such. Without a Buddha's teachings, no insight, no development of the Path. .... R:> Can you explain why a particular activity - listening to or considering the dhamma - does give rise to panna, but sitting and considering the nature of the arising dhammas in an undistracted setting would not increase the likelihood of seeing into the nature of arising dhammas? ... S: In the ultimate sense, the listening or considering are not 'particular activities', but particular kinds of cittas with panna. One person may read just a few words, carefully consider them and become enlightened. Another person, as you've stressed a few times, might memorise and translate the entire Patthaana, but somehow still take it all for 'theory', unrelated to practice and without any more understanding of dhammas as anatta. I think that as soon as we begin to differentiate between the different kinds of situation you suggest (sitting, non-distracted) as being more conducive, it indicates a lack of confidence in the power of panna and sati to arise anytime, any place. If I'm distracted now by Jon calling out to me, what's the use of thinking that less distraction or sitting quietly would be more useful to the Path? It would just be attachment to such situations masquerading as some kind of wisdom, I think. It all comes back to the present moment. .... >Are the conditions such that there is no skill involved, no increasing of discernment that makes panna develop? What is the nature of those kusala conditions, and what causes them to arise? ... S: No skill by anyone. Now, we're reflecting carefully. This is meditation or bhavana. It's occurring by conditions and is a condition for further panna to develop. So, the conditions are the careful attending and wise reflection, but not by any self. I appreciate the way you question and question the fine detail until satisfied with a particular point. Perhaps you can give another of your good summaries of what I (and others) have said back to this one again:-). Metta, Sarah ========= #96405 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 5:27 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. jonoabb Hi Robert E > > Would > > you be interested in posting the passage you rely on for the above > > paragraph (namely that the practice of anapanasati was given by the > > Buddha as a means of facilitating the path), so that we could discuss > > further? > > It's not a particular passage, but the whole sutta. It is my > impression that these techniques were *given* by the Buddha. INteresting though your impressions are ;-)), and likewise the (largely speculative) comments that followed this part of your post, I think that unless we go to the actual sutta text, there is nothing to be gained from continuing the discussion at this general level, i.e., without substantiation from some source or other. I may be wrong, but I sense that you have a reluctance to get into a discussion of the sutta text itself. If that is *not* the case, please say so and I'd be only too happy to continue. Jon > They > don't appear as such in the yoga sutras or the literature of any other > Indian religions. The practice of breathing for *mindfulness* is > Buddha's contribution to meditation, so I would not suppose that > Buddha just happened along to find these monks meditating in this way > and mentioned how they can develop sati while they happened to be > doing it for some other reason. ... #96406 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 5:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder - on ditthi sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Thu, 5/3/09, szmicio wrote: >thank you for this quote. It's so hard to eradicate ditthi. we cannot do this on our own, wise friends are needed. This quote is a big support. ... S: Thank you for your encouragement too. As for 'trying to eradicate ditthi' etc - who is trying? Metta, Sarah ======== #96407 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 5:33 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. jonoabb Hi Suan Thanks again for sharing your views again. > 374. "And, Monks, how does a monk lives as a repeated > body–observer in the body? Here, Monks, the monk goes to the forest > or to the root of the tree or to a quiet building and sits having > crossed his legs, keeping his upper body upright, orienting mindfulness > towards breathing as the meditation object. He inhales mindfully only. > He exhales mindfully only." > > And, when I wrote: > > "In the above Pali passage from Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam, the > monk is focussing on the processes of breathing in line with the > Buddha's instructions for the purpose of developing mindfulness." ... > As soon as the people downplay the Buddha's teachings as mere > descriptions, they can pretend that the Buddha was not talking to them. > With this excuse, they can also pretend that they do not need to take > responsible measures for personal involvement in his teachings. I wonder what your measure of the degree of someone's "personal involvement" is ;-)) The question as I see it concerns the proper understanding of the development of the path as taught by the Buddha. I think you would agree that that is a necessary starting point for any would-be follower of the teachings. With this in mind, I have one or two observations or questions on the sutta passage you've quoted. 1. In an earlier part of the sutta, it is said that the monk who contemplates body in the body does so "having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief". So the passage you've quoted has to be read in the context of these words which, it seems to me, indicate a person of already considerable attainment. 2. The passage you translate as "the monk goes to the forest or to the root of the tree or to a quiet building" -- i.e., using the present tense "goes" -- is more usually translated using the past participle "gone", which may carry a different connotation. What is the basis in the Pali for "goes", as opposed to "gone"? 3. In the passage, the monk is described as "orienting mindfulness towards breathing as the meditation object". To me, the reference to "orienting mindfulness" indicates a person of already highly developed mindfulness. 4. Regarding the passage just quoted, I'd be interested to know what is the Pali that is translated as "meditation object" (and whether this is a reference to samatha bhavana or to vipassana bhavana). 5. The sutta describes how the monk in question inhales and exhales "mindfully only". Again, this would seem to indicate a level of mindfulness that is already highly developed. It doesn't seem like something that can be practised by focussing on the breath as an exercise or activity. I'd be interested to hear your comments on these matters. Jon #96408 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 5:34 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 Dear pt, Regarding: pt: "...could you please explain a bit more about ruupa being 'physical in nature'. I'm confused about several aspects here: I thought that ruupa (or kalapa) is basically a process that acts as an interface between physical and mental worlds. So, a kalapa lasting 17 moments would basically stand for the rate at which the mechanical energy of physical phenomena such as light waves, sound waves, etc, is converted by physical senses (eye, ear, etc) into electrical impulses, which are then processed by the brain, which converts them into mental-domain events." Scott: I'll try to explain. 'Kalaapa' is not synonymous with 'ruupa'. 'Kalaapa' means 'anything that comprises a number of things of the same kind; a bundle, bunch; sheaf; a row, multitude...' (according to the Pali Text Society Pali-English Dictionary). 'Kha.nika' refers to the momentary arising and falling away of dhammas. Ruupa arises in a kalaapa. At each moment, between the arising and falling away of ruupa, the kalaapa consists of at least eight ruupas. There are various combinations depending on origination - kamma, citta, temperature, or nutriment. The Four Great Elements and at least four derived ruupas (upaadaaya-ruupaa) always arise together and this is the kalaapa. There is, of course, much, much more to this. All these things you mention - 'the mechanical energy of physical phenomena such as light waves', 'sound waves', 'electrical impulses', 'processed by the brain, 'mental-domain events' - are all concepts and are not, as I see it, Dhamma. Visible object is ruupa. Sound is ruupa. pt: "In case of the ear for example, in response to sound waves (changes in air pressure), tiny hair follicles in the inner ear move, and that movement results in electrical impulses, so mechanical energy of sound waves is transformed into electrical impulses, which are then taken by the auditory nerve to the brain, which then processes it to extract component frequencies, which are then mentally understood as a certain sound. So, in that example, I could easily understand a kalapa to stand for the rate, or speed, at which 1 whole process of this mechanical-to-mental transformation happens." Scott: In the above, 'sound' is ruupa. Ear-base is ruupa. Contact is naama. For the rest, as I see it, science is best left to the scientists. It is not Dhamma. As you can see, science is based on a notion of permanence and is entirely conceptual. The Dhamma will not be understood through attempting to find correspondence to science. The Buddha did not teach some primitive form of science or psychology of perception. Kalaapa does not 'stand for the rate or speed' of arising and falling away of ruupa. There is no process by which ruupa - the material - is transformed into naama - the mental. Ruupa and naama are two distinct and separate realities. Ruupa is the reality that does not and cannot know anything. pt: "However, if you are saying that ruupas are in fact entirely physical in nature, then are we talking about molecules and atoms here? Or maybe kalapas are more related to quanta? I mean, I'm having trouble reconciling ruupas as physical matter with modern science, since physical world is probably the only domain where science has actually made some progress." Scott: 'Molecules,' 'atoms,' 'quanta,' are all concepts. I'm afraid, pt, that I'm not the guy to engage if you wish to compare science to Dhamma. A Buddha teaches Dhamma and Dhamma is a designation for that which only a Buddha can teach. 'Science' is entirely the product of ordinary folks. I'm hopelessly but absolutely not interested in such a comparison and think, in fact, that attempting to make such an intellectual foray will not assist in an intellectual understanding of the Dhamma. Better to drop all science, in my opinion. Sorry to disappoint you. Should you wish to imagine that it is akin to the scientific method to consider the true study of the Dhamma to be the domain of sati and pa~n~naa which arise and can consider the true nature of ruupa (or any other dhamma) with enough development, I'd buy that analogy, but only in a loose and very tentative fashion. Sincerely, Scott. #96409 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 5:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder - on doubts sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Thu, 5/3/09, szmicio wrote: L:> >should we be concerned if not kusala for a long time? > > ... > S: Would such concern be kusala or akusala? >L: For me it's impossible to tell whether something is kusala or not. .... S: I think that any such concern about lack of kusala is bound to be akusala. It's indicative of an attachment for kusala at such a time. ... L: >There is thinking about kusala and akusala. But only pa~n~na can know it. Like light which emanate in each directions. There is only few conditioned moments in life when it arises and knows what is kusala. just on conditions. >I take akusala for "my akusala". I think about them with regrets. It's not kusala. ... S: That's just the point. Kusala is also taken for "my kusala". That's why there's clinging to having more of it. The self-view is the real hindrance. ... L:> Is it correct to learn more and more about realities as not mine, even there is a lot of akusala? ... S: The more we learn and understand about dhammas as dhammas, the less they'll be taken for 'mine', without being concerned about this or about how much akusala there is. ... >What is the characteristic of doubts? doubts doesnt think. ... S: No, but doubts arise with thinking. There is thinking about dhammas with doubt, for example. As you know, such 'doubt' doesn't refer to doubts about conventional topics such as the weather or one's trip to Bangkok! As always a pleasure to chat with you, Lukas. It's very easy to talk to you (about the Dhamma) and this quality is one the Buddha praised. Metta, Sarah ======= #96410 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 6:12 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Nice to 'see' you. Regarding: P: "...but is there some need to stir the finally placid waters? I thought Scott was doing so last week too when he asked Sarah about whether there could possibly be jhana masters. Do you miss the frey? I really don't get it. As I said to Scott once, I think controversy is addictive!..." Scott: I'm sorry you saw it that way, Phil. No, I abhor controversy and friction. For me, the question is important to me for my own reasons and asking it as quietly and non-controversially as possible to a like-minded student of the Dhamma does not constitute a desire to stir the placid waters. It is precisely due to placid waters that I could ask the question - a small one that is long past the asking by now. I reply to you by way of greeting and clarification but would absolutely go stone-cold silent should the discussion turn to wrangling about 'meditation'. I hope you are well, Phil. Sincerely, Scott. #96411 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 6:17 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. jonoabb Hi Scott (and Connie and Robert E) > Regarding: > > "...'Bhikkhus, that which is bodily energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom. Thus energy is outlined (Sa.myutta v. 111)..." > > Scott: Here is the Sutta extract quoted (paraphrased) above, for your consideration; it is SN 52 (2) A Method of Exposition (Pariyaayasutta.m): > > "Whenever one discriminates things internally with wisdom, examines them, makes an investigation of them, that is the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states; whenever one discriminates things externally with wisdom, examines them, makes an investigation of them, that is also the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states. Thus what is spoken of concisely as the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states becomes, by this method of exposition, is twofold. > > "Whatever bodily energy there is, is the enlightenment factor of energy; whatever mental energy there is, is also the enlightenment factor of energy. Thus what is spoken of concisely as the enlightenment factor of energy becomes, by this method of exposition, twofold." Thanks for the Sutta extract (which I finally tracked down at SN 46:52 ;-)). Very pertinent. Regarding the meaning of "body" in "bodily energy", I notice there's an interesting footnote [# 102] in CDB to the reference to "body" in "tranquillity of body", appearing just after our passage. That note in turn refers to another note [# 61] confirming the commentarial interpretation of "body" as referring to cetasikas (vs. "mind" as referring to cittas). Appreciating all the passages you've been quoting. Jon #96412 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 6:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear Sarah, I appreciated the quote from the Brahmajaalasutta and also the previous one you gave. See below for another text: Op 7-mrt-2009, om 13:35 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > For a very detailed commentary on this, including on the > distinction between 'unobstructed knowledge' (anaavara.na-~naa.na) > vs 'omniscient knowledge' (sabba~n~nula-~naa.na) and the six kinds > of knowledge "unshared by disciples" can be found in n.7 to Ch VII > of the Visuddhimagga, transl. by Nanamoli. It comes from the Tiika > to the Visuddhimagga. > > The kinds of knowledge, as mentioned there are: > > 1. what faculties prevail in beings > 2. knowledge of the inclinations and tendencies of beings > 3. knowledge of the Twin Marvel > 4. knowledge of the attainment of the great compassion > 5. omniscient knowledge > 6. unobstructed knowledge ------- N: The Path of Discrimination, about the Buddha's knowledge not shared by disciples. The “Knowledge of beings’ biases and underlying tendencies” is mentioned in the “Path of Discrimination” , “Paìisambhidåmagga” of the Khuddaka Nikåya, in the Måtika (Table of Contents), among the seventythree kinds of knowledge. These latent tendencies are further explained in its Commentary, the “Saddhammappakåsiní” under the Explanation (Niddesa) of Knowledge of beings’ biasses and underlying tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåùa). The “Path of Discrimination”, in the Måtika, mentions the “Knowledge of beings’ biases and underlying tendencies” as the sixtynineth kind of knowledge among the seventythree kinds of knowledge. This knowledge is not shared by disciples, it is only the Buddha who has this knowledge. We read in the “Path of Discrimination”: “There are seventythree kinds of knowledge and among these the first sixtyseven are shared by disciples. The last six are are not shared by disciples but are exclusively knowledges of the Buddha. These are: penetration of others’ faculties, knowledge of beings’ biases and underlying tendencies, knowledge of the twin metamorphosis, knowledge of the great compassion, omniscient knowledge and unobstructed knowledge 2 .” The Commentary to the “Path of Discrimination” gives more explanations about the knowledge of beings’ biases and underlying tendencies. The defilements that lie persisting in beings’ continuous stream of cittas are called anusaya, latent tendencies. This term denotes the defilements such as clinging to sense objects that is strong. The terms åsaya and anusaya are joined together as åsayånusaya: biases and latent tendencies. It has become one word, which is actually a twin compound, formed by two words. The words disposition (adhimutti) and conduct (carita)5 are in the text of the “Path of Discrimination”combined with the expression åsayånusaya: biases and latent tendencies. In the text, after he (Såriputta) has used the expression “knowledge of people’s biases and latent tendencies”, åsayånusaya ñåùa, he speaks of the knowledge of people’s behaviour (carita) and resolutions or dispositions (adhimutti). We read (Ch 69, 585): “Here the Perfect One knows beings’ biasses, he knows their underlying tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåùa), he knows their behaviour (carita), he knows their dispositions(adhimutti), he knows beings as capable and incapable. 586. What is the bias which is latent in beings? Beings are supported by the wrong view of existence or supported by the wrong view of non-existence thus: ‘The world is eternal’ or ‘The world is not eternal’ or ‘The world is finite’ or ‘The world is infinite’ or ‘The soul and the body are the same’ or ‘The soul is one, the body another’ or ‘A Perfect One is not after death’ or “A Perfect One both is and is not after death’ or ‘A Perfect One neither is nor is not after death.’ Or else, avoiding these extremes, they have ‘acceptance in conformity’ with respect to dhammas that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality. He also knows them as pursuing sensual-desires thus: ‘This person gives importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, is inclined to sensual desires. He also knows them as pursuing renunciation thus: This person gives importance to renunciation, is biassed to renunciation, is inclined to renunciation. He also knows them as pursuing ill-will thus: ‘This person gives importance to ill-will, is biassed to ill-will, is inclined to ill- will. He also knows them as pursuing non-ill-will thus: ‘This person gives importance to non-ill-will, is biassed to non-ill-will, is inclined to non-ill-will. He also knows them as pursuing stiffness- and-torpor thus: ‘This person gives importance to stiffness-and- torpor, is biassed to stiffness-and-torpor, is inclined to stiffness- and-torpor. He also knows them as pursuing perception of light thus: ‘This person gives importance to perception of light, is biassed to perception of light, is inclined to perception of light. These are the biasses (chanda) that become underlying tendencies in beings. 587. What are the defilements that are underlying tendencies in beings? There are seven underlying tendencies (anusaya): Underlying tendency to greed for sense-desire (kåma-råga), underlying tendency to aversion (patigha), underlying tendency to conceit (måna), underlying tendency to wrong view (ditthi), underlying tendency to doubt (vicikicchå), underlying tendency to desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaråga), and underlying tendency to ignorance (avijjå).” --------- Nina. #96413 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 6:37 am Subject: Re: Reminder - on ditthi szmicio Dear Sarah >thank you for this quote. It's so hard to eradicate ditthi. we cannot >do this on our own, wise friends are needed. This quote is a big >support. > ... > S: Thank you for your encouragement too. > > As for 'trying to eradicate ditthi' etc - who is trying? L: citta and cetasika are trying. best wishes Lukas #96414 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 6:39 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Regarding: J: "Thanks for the Sutta extract (which I finally tracked down at SN 46:52 ;-)). Very pertinent." Scott: Sorry, man! I'll pay more attention to the numbering. It takes me ages to find the suttas when they are referenced one way in one source and organized in two other ways in the texts I have and in the Paa.li. :-( J: "Regarding the meaning of 'body' in 'bodily energy', I notice there's an interesting footnote [# 102] in CDB to the reference to 'body' in 'tranquillity of body', appearing just after our passage. That note in turn refers to another note [# 61] confirming the commentarial interpretation of 'body' as referring to cetasikas (vs. 'mind' as referring to cittas)." Scott: Yes, I think it is very important. The clarification that we are dealing with dhammas at the point of 'mental inception' is crucial. It is at this point as well, I think, that pa~n~naa takes a dhamma as object. Pa~n~naa does not consider a conventional body. Sincerely, Scott. #96415 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 7:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 7-mrt-2009, om 7:37 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > One last question for now that I have regarding vipaaka - what is > the process that transforms intention and action into vipaaka? I > understand that vipaaka needs appropriate conditions to arise, but > what is the actual process that for example transforms unwholesome > intention and deed (input) into akusala vipaaka (output) for example? ------ N: A good or bed action done in the past, even aeons ago, can produce vipaaka at the present time. There are also other supportive conditions present so that kamma can produce its result. As we not so long ago discussed: the time when one is born (war time or time of peace), the place where one lives, the bodily disposition one is born with, one's occupation or conduct at present. These conditions may be favorable for giving kusala kamma the opportunity to produce kusala vipaaka or prevent akusala kamma to produce akusala vipaaka, and vice versa. It is not so that kamma transforms into vipaaka. It produces vipaaka. ---------- > > pt: Regarding ADL chapter 19: > It's said that a prompted citta is "(prompted, by someone else or > by oneself)". What does it mean "prompted by oneself" in practical > terms? Would that be like first thinking "It's a good thing to give > to monks so I should do it," and then the prompted maha-kusala > citta arises? -------- N: unprompted: spontaneously arising, it is stronger. Prompted: it has less strength. Quote from Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 84 and Tiika: < Prompted. Vis. : But when a man is happy and content in the way aforesaid, and, while placing right view foremost, yet he does it hesitantly through lack of free generosity, etc., or urged on by others, then his consciousness is of the same kind as the last but 'prompted'; for in this sense 'prompting' is a term for a prior effort exerted by himself or others. Tiika: With a mind that looks at the gifts that are to be given with restricted generosity. By the word (through restricted generosity,) etc., he deals with lack of determination in the undertaking of morality and so on. N: There is some hesitation and indecisiveness with regard to daana, siila and the other kinds of kusala when the kusala citta is prompted. When one observes siila with the second type of kusala citta, the confidence in kusala, respect for the Buddha and metta and respect for one’s fellowmen is not as strong as in the case of the first type of kusala citta that is unprompted. > Nina. #96416 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 2:36 pm Subject: Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions gazita2002 hallo Nina, this is wonderful, nina, thank you. please give my regards to Lodewijk. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I appreciated the quote from the Brahmajaalasutta and also the > previous one you gave. > See below for another text: > Op 7-mrt-2009, om 13:35 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > For a very detailed commentary on this, including on the > > distinction between 'unobstructed knowledge' (anaavara.na-~naa.na) > > vs 'omniscient knowledge' (sabba~n~nula-~naa.na) and the six kinds > > of knowledge "unshared by disciples" can be found in n.7 to Ch VII > > of the Visuddhimagga, transl. by Nanamoli. It comes from the Tiika > > to the Visuddhimagga. > > > > The kinds of knowledge, as mentioned there are: > > > > 1. what faculties prevail in beings > > 2. knowledge of the inclinations and tendencies of beings > > 3. knowledge of the Twin Marvel > > 4. knowledge of the attainment of the great compassion > > 5. omniscient knowledge > > 6. unobstructed knowledge > ------- > N: The Path of Discrimination, about the Buddha's knowledge not > shared by disciples. .....snip..... > Nina. may all beings be happy azita #96417 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 5:01 pm Subject: Clinging to Noise & Panic! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Craving => Clinging => Fear => Panic => Suffering! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, I will teach you the things that can be clung to, that bind & their chain! Listen to that and pay attention: What, bhikkhus, are these phenomena, that can be clung to, that bind, and what is the very chain of this addictive slavery of sensing? The eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind bhikkhus, are things that can be clung to, that binds, while the desire, lust, longing, urge, yearning for & wanting it, the fear & panic of loosing it, the clinging to it, is the very chain there... Only by directly knowing these 6 senses as they are, only by fully understanding these 6 sense sources, only by developing disgust towards and by leaving all behind these 6 originators of commotion & noise, is one capable of eliminating Suffering... All Craving creates Clinging culminating in Panic! <....> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 89-90 The 6 senses section 35. Thread on Clinging & Binding: 109-110. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice relinquishing day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Clinging to Noise & Panic! #96418 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. buddhatrue Hi Suan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > The issue regarding whether the Buddha merely described how things are > done or gave instructions and prescriptions in Mahaasatipa.t.thaana > Suttam depends on the purposes of the readers and listeners of this > Suttam. This is very true. Good observation! The Buddha didn't force people to do anything or tell them that they "should" do something. It is up to the individual to decide. He would give a description of someone following the path so that others could emulate that example. However, when asked directly what he/she should do, the Buddha would give very specific instructions to that individual. Metta, James #96419 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 11:10 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. ptaus1 Hi Scott, thanks for you reply. I'm still confused about this (apologies, you might have answered my question, but I just can't see it - ruupa and kamma are two most confusing aspects of Buddhism for me at the moment). I'll try to rephrase the question: When you say that ruupa can be considered by sati and panna, to me that means that ruupa can only be cognised by sati and panna (of whatever level), so it seems like saying that ruupa is a subjective cognition of physical matter. Not objective. I.e. without sati and panna to cognise it at that moment, there would be no arising of ruupa. Is that what you are saying, or are you saying that ruupa would arise as physical matter even without sati and panna to cognise it at that moment? How about kalaapa? Would it still arise as a unit of matter even without sati and panna to cognise it at that moment, or it wouldn't? Thanks, and again I apologise if some of my questions here seem like nonsense, I'm just trying to understand how you guys understand things. pt > Should you wish to imagine that it is akin to the scientific method to consider the true study of the Dhamma to be the domain of sati and pa~n~naa which arise and can consider the true nature of ruupa (or any other dhamma) with enough development, I'd buy that analogy, but only in a loose and very tentative fashion. #96420 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 11:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for your reply. Yep, I think I understand that bit about conditions. Apologies, I probably didn't form my question properly: I remember reading somewhere that kamma needs to mature before it produces a result. So I assumed that there must be some process of maturation between the action and the result that it produces under appropriate conditions, and I was just wondering if this process is addressed in abhidhamma. If not, no problems. > N: There is some hesitation and indecisiveness with regard to daana, > siila and the other kinds of kusala when the kusala citta is > prompted. When one observes siila with the second type of kusala > citta, the confidence in kusala, respect for the Buddha and metta and > respect for one's fellowmen is not as strong as in the case of the > first type of kusala citta that is unprompted. > Are the hesitation and indecisiveness akusala cittas in this case? Or perhaps they are kusala, but the kusala roots are not of strong level? Thanks pt #96421 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 12:17 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Phil, > > Nice to 'see' you. Regarding: > > P: "...but is there some need to stir the finally placid waters? I thought Scott was doing so last week too when he asked Sarah about whether there could possibly be jhana masters. Do you miss the frey? I really don't get it. As I said to Scott once, I think controversy is addictive!..." > > Scott: I'm sorry you saw it that way, Phil. No, I abhor controversy and friction. For me, the question is important to me for my own reasons and asking it as quietly and non-controversially as possible to a like-minded student of the Dhamma does not constitute a desire to stir the placid waters. It is precisely due to placid waters that I could ask the question - a small one that is long past the asking by now. I reply to you by way of greeting and clarification but would absolutely go stone-cold silent should the discussion turn to wrangling about 'meditation'. > ------------------ Hi Scott and all, I think it's a wonderful topic. And I loved the story about monkeys imitating slow-walking Buddhists. I didn't see it as ridiculing anybody. I saw it as a metaphor for how the Dhamma wrongly grasped can be so near and yet so very *very* far from the real thing. I think DSG's formal-mediation discussions deal with the crux of the matter. If they have occasionally led to arguments and hurt feelings, well, that's a risk that had to be taken. (We can learn from our mistakes and get better at it.) So if at *any* time someone at DSG wants to discuss formal meditation, I'm available! :-) Ken H #96422 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 6-mrt-2009, om 16:50 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Generally that's only vipaka which bothers me. javanas are pretty > clear to me. ------- N: It is not as clear as you would think. When hardness impinges on the bodysense, just a vipaakacitta, body-consciousness, experiences that object. It is accompanied by painful bodily feeling that is also vipaaka. But the javanacittas in that process are likely to be dosa- muulacittas accompanied by unhappy feeling that is akusala. All this occurs so rapidly and it is difficult to distinguish the dhammas that are vipaaka and the dhammas that are akusala. No use trying, but we can learn that they are just conditioned dhammas. ------- > L: my question was does kusala vipaka can experience unplesant > object? but you answer it now. thanks Nina. I think i need to hear > more about vipaka and kammaja-rupas. That's still not clear enough > to me. ------- Kamma produces vipaakacittas in the form of rebirth-consciousness and vipaakacittas such as seeing etc. during life. Kamma produces also rupas from the first moment of life. In the case of humans three decads: of heartbase, bodysense (but it still has to develop, it is very tiny) and sex. During life the other sense-organs such as eyesense, are produced by kamma. ------- > L:How rupa can be plesant? ------ N: Softness can be very pleasant, or a melodious sound. But no use to try to find out, cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another extremely rapidly. We usually think long stories about the pleasantness of a tangible object or sound. Nina. #96423 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 1:47 am Subject: Metta Corner. nilovg Dear Scott, I had a discussion with Lodewijk about metta. L: People think that they can easily have metta in being nice to other people. But true metta is so far away, it seems that it never can be reached. It can only be developed with pa~n~naa, but if there is no pa~n~naa metta cannot be developed. N: When there is an idea of 'I' should develop it, it cannot be developed. Pa~n~naa is not only fully developed understanding, it can also be a beginning understanding, intellectual understanding, and that is beneficial. The moments of egoism and metta are different and although this cannot be clearly known yet, pa~n~naa can begin to realize that these are different moments. L: Metta arises only for a moment and then there is so much conceit, attachment, ignorance. N: We should not wish for many moments of metta or other kinds of kusala. When akusala arises it is a reality and understanding of it can develop. L: The Buddha preached about metta, but the Buddha's time is so long ago. I think for us today it is most difficult to have true metta. N: Some people want to modernize the Abhidhamma, but it is as actual today as it was in the Buddha's time. For instance, conceit is always conceit and we can read many striking examples of conceit such as conceit about having much knowledge, conceit about one's health, conceit as self-advertisement, flying a banner. Metta is always metta, the citta is soft and gentle when there is true metta, no matter in the Buddha's time or today. If you have doubts whether metta can be developed, remember the sutta: 'It can be done. If it could not be done I would not have told you so'. L: It is so inspiring to see the metta of our Thai friends. N: We do not know the cittas of others from moment to moment. We can only have more understanding of our own cittas. ------ N: I want to add something about jhaana, I remember that Lukas had aversion when reading about metta as meditation subject of jhaana. People before the Buddha's time and also during his time realized that there were many moments of akusala cittas in between moments of metta, even on account of seeing or the other sense-cognitions. When meeting someone else and having the intention to help him with kindness, one also sees, and one thinks of what is seen. On account of the experience of visible object, tangible object etc. many akusala cittas, even with subtle clinging arise. The person who had inclinations for jhaana would develop jhaana in order to be free from sense impressions. He knew the characteristic of mettaa and could take that as his meditation subject. Pa~n~naa is needed to have precise knowledge of the difference between the moments of pure mettaa and akusala. ------ N: Another point: We discussed in Bgk about metta towards the dead and Kh Sujin said that the Vis. mentioned that when taking a dead person as subject of metta, metta could not be further developed so that jhaana could be attained. But just as we can think with aversion about a person who has passed away, evenso we can think with metta about that person. I wrote to you before that this was not possible, but it is possible. Nina. #96424 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 3:12 am Subject: Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions szmicio Dear Nina > ------- > > L: my question was does kusala vipaka can experience unplesant > > object? but you answer it now. thanks Nina. I think i need to hear > > more about vipaka and kammaja-rupas. That's still not clear enough > > to me. > ------- > Kamma produces vipaakacittas in the form of rebirth-consciousness and > vipaakacittas such as seeing etc. during life. Kamma produces also > rupas from the first moment of life. In the case of humans three > decads: of heartbase, bodysense (but it still has to develop, it is > very tiny) and sex. During life the other sense-organs such as > eyesense, are produced by kamma. > ------- > > L:How rupa can be plesant? > ------ > N: Softness can be very pleasant, or a melodious sound. But no use to > try to find out, cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another > extremely rapidly. We usually think long stories about the > pleasantness of a tangible object or sound. L: During ruupas studies with Connie i didn't find anything about pleasantness of ruupa. so here are my doubts. I especially mean Vibhanga here. Is it rupa that is plesant or bodily-vedana that is plesant? My best wishes Lukas p.s Trying to find-out is of course akusala. That's not problem at all. We can learn more and more in our life about anattaness. It can lead to detachment from the idea of Self, step by step. very gradually, in daily life. There is nothing then daily life. This ruupa and naama details helps very much. #96425 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 3:39 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. philofillet Hi Scott > Scott: I'm sorry you saw it that way, Phil. No, I abhor controversy and friction. For me, the question is important to me for my own reasons and asking it as quietly and non-controversially as possible to a like-minded student of the Dhamma does not constitute a desire to stir the placid waters. It is precisely due to placid waters that I could ask the question - a small one that is long past the asking by now. I reply to you by way of greeting and clarification but would absolutely go stone-cold silent should the discussion turn to wrangling about 'meditation'. Ph: Ok, I just thought it was a bit weird that you'd ask Sarah "hey Sarah do you think there can possibly be jhana masters in this day and age" or whatever. It just felt like considering the constant context of DSG that it was inviting more discussion on that topic. Yeah, I'm doing well Scott. I think of you quite often actually, because I'm really getting into Pali now. I've always thought that you are the purest of the pariyatti-ers because you post long blocks of text and don't tend to make daily life speculation based on them. I think that very dry approach is what pariyatti should be about. But whatever, eh? Whatever makes one enthusiastic about Dhamma is good in my books - even that peculiar slow walking practice - because whatever makes us enthusiastic about Dhamma is infinitely more valuable than the alternate, the toxic crap the mind wants to feed on, the poisonous diet that feeds bad behaviour. I absolutely disagree with a position that you and Sarah and others share, I think - that one would be better off without having come across Dhamma than to have come across it in a wrong form. I disagree with that, I think it is a bizarre thing to say. If the Dhamma is in a wrong form and there is no waking up to that, so be it. Still there will be conditioning of behaviour that is less harmful to oneself and others. But there can be waking up to the incorrect aspects if one stays open and doesn't fail to see the flip side of the coin. (Thus my disappointment that people seem unable to see weak points in Acharn Sujin's talking. There are many, many excellent aspects, but if one can't see the weak points one fails to...well, whatever...) Anyways, hello and hello to anyone else who dropped a note based on my suddenly weird appearance. I think I will be back to post the CMA in Pali, bit by bit. I think it would be a good mental exercise and a good way to review the bit I know about Abhidhamma. Now I've got other places to discuss Dhamma, so I might be able to stick to Abhidhamma, which is DSG's strength in my opinion. Metta, Phil #96426 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. sarahprocter... Hi Connie (& Scott), --- On Sat, 7/3/09, connie wrote: >don't ask me to explain this! ... S: If this is what your text has, it's a typo: >Pts III 240. Body: there are two bodies: the mental body and the material body. What is the mental body? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention, *and materiality* are the mental body, and also what are called cognizance formations: these are the mental body. .... S: Our edition has: "Body: there are two bodies: the mental body and the material body. What is the mental body? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention, *and mentality* are the mental body, and also what are called cognizance formations: these are the mental body." Pali: " 'Kaayo' ti. Dve kaayaa - naamakaayo ca ruupakaayo ca. Katamo naamakaayo? Vedanaa sa~n~naa cetanaa phasso manasikaaro, naama~n ca naamakaayo ca, ye ca vuccanti citta-sa"nkhaaraa. Aya"m naamakaayo." ... >What is the material body? The four great entities and the materiality derived by clinging from the four great entities, in-breath and out-breath and the sign for anchoring [mindfulness] , and also what are called body formations: this is the material body. ... S: Yes, our text has the same. The Pali for this: "Katamo ruupakaayo? Cattaaro ca mahaabhuutaa catunna~n ca mahaabhuutaana"m upaadaaya ruupa"m assaaso ca passaaso ca nimitta~n ca upanibandhanaa, ye ca vuccanti kaayasa"nkhaaraa. Aya"m ruupakaayo." Metta, Sarah ======= #96427 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 4:27 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. philofillet Hi again all, >>>I absolutely disagree with a position that you and Sarah and others share, I think - that one would be better off without having come across Dhamma than to have come across it in a wrong form. I disagree with that, I think it is a bizarre thing to say. If the Dhamma is in a wrong form and there is no waking up to that, so be it. Still there will be conditioning of behaviour that is less harmful to oneself and others. But there can be waking up to the incorrect aspects if one stays open and doesn't fail to see the flip side of the coin. Ph: Thinking about this, yes, I think it's an important point. Who knows how Sarah's experience with the admittedly overly results oriented Mahashi way helped condition positive mental habits. Robert K told me that he used to meditate in a way that led to a certainly glowingness of complexion that people commented on (sorry Robert K, you didn't put it quite that way) and has said that meditation was good, at the time. Who knows in what ways it benefited, helped to build the mind. Connie, I think, used to be an SKG lotus sutra chanter, or Nichiren itself. That is in my opinion the most incorrect form of Buddhism there is, but who knows how that chanting helped to clarify mental habits. They all woke up to faults in that system and woke up to deeper aspects of the Pali canon. Peopl see through incorrect ways. (I don't know if Robert K's was incorrect, but I am aware of incorrect aspects of Mahasi Sayadaw approach and much, much more obviously Nichiren. We get into the Dhamma (usually Dharma first) and it leads us towards liberation from suffering in many different ways and to different degrees. I sincerely hope there is a graduation from, a growth away from the unnecessarily harsh rejection of other approaches to Dhamma and a better appreciation of the ways they help people. But I'm not counting on it. I suspect the A.S approach relies greatly on finding fault in other approaches, in that definition and assignation of Wrong View that is way too ariyan in my opinion. OK, catch you again when I return to post passages from CMA. Metta, Phil #96428 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 4:30 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. philofillet Hi again >Connie, I think, used to be an SKG lotus sutra chanter, or Nichiren itself. Oops. SKG is an English school I used to teach at. I meant SGI, Soka Gakkai International. Metta, Phil #96429 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, --- On Sun, 8/3/09, Phil wrote: >OK, catch you again when I return to post passages from CMA. ... S: I'll look forward to that. I find it more useful to discuss 'dhammas' than to discuss 'approaches', but then, whatever the topic it comes back to dhammas anyway! I hope you and Neomi are keeping well. Metta, Sarah ======= #96430 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 7:06 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. jonoabb Hi Suan I have a further comment on the sutta passage and your remarks on it. > 374. "And, Monks, how does a monk lives as a repeated > body–observer in the body? Here, Monks, the monk goes to the forest > or to the root of the tree or to a quiet building and sits having > crossed his legs, keeping his upper body upright, orienting mindfulness > towards breathing as the meditation object. He inhales mindfully only. > He exhales mindfully only." > > And, when I wrote: > > "In the above Pali passage from Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam, the > monk is focussing on the processes of breathing in line with the > Buddha's instructions for the purpose of developing mindfulness." As you know, the answer to the question that is posed here ("And, Monks, how does a monk lives as a repeated body–observer in the body?") has 14 sections to it*. Thus the section dealing with anapanasati, which is the first of the 14, is only a part of the answer to the question, even though it is made clear in the commentary that a person may attain enlightenment on the basis of jhana having anapanasati as its object. So kayanupassana-satipatthana may take many forms. And I'm not aware of anything in the texts that suggests any one form is to be preferred over the others. > As soon as the people downplay the Buddha's teachings as mere > descriptions, they can pretend that the Buddha was not talking to them. > With this excuse, they can also pretend that they do not need to take > responsible measures for personal involvement in his teachings. We should not downplay the significance of the other sections of kaayanupassana, such as the modes of deportment, by taking the section on anapanasati as representative of the whole teaching on that particular foundation of mindfulness. Jon *The 14 sections are: Mindfulness of Breathing The Modes of Deportment The Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension The Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body The Reflection on the Modes of Materiality (Elements, Dhatu) Cemetery Contemplation 1 - 9 #96431 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 7:24 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 Dear pt, First of all, regarding: pt: "...I apologise if some of my questions here seem like nonsense, I'm just trying to understand how you guys understand things." Scott: Not at all, pt, your questions are not nonsensical. I'll try to answer but may not be the best one to do so. One can only learn bit by bit (in fact, I hope others read my replies to you and set straight for us anything that I don't get correct). pt: "When you say that ruupa can be considered by sati and panna, to me that means that ruupa can only be cognised by sati and panna (of whatever level), so it seems like saying that ruupa is a subjective cognition of physical matter..." Scott: There are four paramattha dhammas - realities. These are ruupa, citta, cetasika, and nibbaana. Citta and cetasika are naama - mentality. Ruupa is materiality. We'll leave nibbaana aside. Ruupa is an entirely separate reality. Ruupa arises and falls away according to conditions, hence it is a conditioned dhamma. *Ruupa cannot experience or know anything.* Since ruupa cannot know anything, cannot experience anything, then it cannot be said that ruupa 'is a subjective cognition of physical matter.' It can be said that ruupa is ruupa. Cognizing is not a characteristic of ruupa. Nor can it be said, if this is what you mean, that visible object is non-existent until it is seen - that the seen is literally created by seeing consciousness. Citta and cetasikas - naama - arise and fall away according to conditions. Citta is the reality that knows. Citta arises with cetasikas. Both arise and take an object; all then fall away - citta, cetasika, and object. Each serve as conascence condition for the other. There is not citta without accompanying cetasikas; there are no cetasikas without citta. Citta has its own characteristic. Eye-consciousness experiences visible object - no other, for example. Each cetasika arising with citta also has its own characteristic. Citta and cetasika are naama - mentality. pt: "... Not objective. I.e. without sati and panna to cognise it at that moment, there would be no arising of ruupa. Is that what you are saying, or are you saying that ruupa would arise as physical matter even without sati and panna to cognise it at that moment?" Scott: Ruupa arises and falls away independent of whether or not it becomes an object of citta and cetasika. Naama and ruupa are entirely separate realities. Ruupa cannot be imbued with the characteristic of being given to experience. Sati and pa~n~naa are wholesome cetasikas and arise along with wholesome citta, take the same object as citta, and then fall away. This sort of moment of consciousness would be some level of an experience of the characteristics of a given object - say visible object - as being just as it is. pt: "How about kalaapa? Would it still arise as a unit of matter even without sati and panna to cognise it at that moment, or it wouldn't?" Scott: Yes. Ruupa always arises in a kalaapa. Please feel free to continue to ask for clarification. I'm wanting to go slowly, if we can. There is already much in the above that is between the lines. Sincerely, Scott. #96432 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 8:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. philofillet Hi Sarah > --- On Sun, 8/3/09, Phil wrote: > >OK, catch you again when I return to post passages from CMA. > ... > S: I'll look forward to that. I find it more useful to discuss 'dhammas' than to discuss 'approaches', but then, whatever the topic it comes back to dhammas anyway! Ph: Well, it certainly does with you Sarah! And I suppose if you stretch things you can say all the teachings come down to dhammas, but it is really stretching, I think. For example, I place a lot of emphasis on the Mangala sutta. When we are urged to support our loved ones and friends, it is the support that counts (and that means the way it is received) not the dhammas that we are aware of or not. Not all of the Buddha's teachings are about penetrative understanding of dhammas. On the other hand, I agree it is useful to sometimes make the leap to reduce very conventionally worded teachings to dhammas. For example, asevana ca balana, pandita nan ca sevana, don't associate with the fool, associate with the wise person, it is helpful to think not only of the people we associate with but the mind states that we harbour, or don't. And that is getting closer to the dhammas involved. I'm sure developing understanding of Dhamma means getting close and closer to the dhammas involved. I just find you folks want everyone to make the leap too soon too fast. Anyways, see you again at some point. The CMA thing may or may not happen.... Metta, Phil #96433 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 8:15 am Subject: Re: Metta Corner. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, N: "I had a discussion with Lodewijk about metta. Thank you for including me in your discussions with Lodewijk: "L: People think that they can easily have metta in being nice to other people..." Scott: I find that in considering mettaa, an interesting thing happens in 'my' experience. I read about mettaa, I learn about the characteristic of mettaa in this way - thinking about mettaa. Slowly, as I think about metta and its characteristic, I find that I can start to see how very, very infrequently mettaa arises in a day. I start to see how, more often than not, it is dosa or lobha. As such, of course, it is easy to experience more of these and feel discouraged about how little mettaa arises in a day and wish it were not so. Why does it have to be dosa? Why can't it be mettaa instead? No point in such thinking, though, as you discuss. What you both say above is correct, at least according to my own daily experience. Mettaa arises infrequently, and is often wished for. N: Some people want to modernize the Abhidhamma, but it is as actual today as it was in the Buddha's time. For instance, conceit is always conceit...Metta is always metta, the citta is soft and gentle when there is true metta..." Scott: Yes, I notice thoughts about how I am the worst person, with all this dosa, and how I wish I were a better person with more mettaa but sometimes there are thoughts about how these thoughts suggest the presence of conceit somewhere and that no matter whether it is dosa or conceit or mettaa, these can be known and are just there due to conditions. N: "I want to add something about jhaana, I remember that Lukas had aversion when reading about metta as meditation subject of jhaana. People before the Buddha's time and also during his time realized that there were many moments of akusala cittas in between moments of metta, even on account of seeing or the other sense-cognitions. When meeting someone else and having the intention to help him with kindness, one also sees, and one thinks of what is seen. On account of the experience of visible object, tangible object etc. many akusala cittas, even with subtle clinging arise. The person who had inclinations for jhaana would develop jhaana in order to be free from sense impressions. He knew the characteristic of mettaa and could take that as his meditation subject. Pa~n~naa is needed to have precise knowledge of the difference between the moments of pure mettaa and akusala." Scott: Yes, a high level of pa~n~naa. Before this, just lots of thinking and wishing and useless self-recrimination. N: "Another point...just as we can think with aversion about a person who has passed away, evenso we can think with metta about that person. I wrote to you before that this was not possible, but it is possible." Scott: So this sort of thinking can condition mettaa, but not to the level of absorption. Sincerely, Scott. #96434 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 8:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 8-mrt-2009, om 11:12 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > L: During ruupas studies with Connie i didn't find anything about > pleasantness of ruupa. so here are my doubts. I especially mean > Vibhanga here. ------- N: Vibhanga: Right at the beginning, 6: As to superior: the opposite is said. If there were not these differences how could there be akusala vipaakacitta and kusala vipaakacitta. Different kammas have to produce different results. ------- > > L: Is it rupa that is plesant or bodily-vedana that is plesant? -------- N: Ruupa can be i.t.thaaramma.na, desirable. The bodily feeling that experiences it is pleasant bodily feeling. Ruupa does not experience anything, feeling does. > > L: p.s > Trying to find-out is of course akusala. That's not problem at all. > We can learn more and more in our life about anattaness. It can > lead to detachment from the idea of Self, step by step. very > gradually, in daily life. There is nothing then daily life. ----- N: Well said, you understand it correctly. Nina. #96435 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 9:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 8-mrt-2009, om 8:17 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > I remember reading somewhere that kamma needs to mature before it > produces a result. So I assumed that there must be some process of > maturation between the action and the result that it produces under > appropriate conditions, and I was just wondering if this process is > addressed in abhidhamma. If not, no problems. ------- N: Countless good and bad actions have been performed, but not all produce result at the present. When it is the right time and the right conditions are present a certain kamma will produce result. One can say: when kamma has matured it produces result, it produces its fruit. -------- > > > N: There is some hesitation and indecisiveness with regard to daana, > > siila and the other kinds of kusala when the kusala citta is > > prompted. When one observes siila with the second type of kusala > > citta, the confidence in kusala, respect for the Buddha and metta > and > > respect for one's fellowmen is not as strong as in the case of the > > first type of kusala citta that is unprompted. > > > pt: Are the hesitation and indecisiveness akusala cittas in this > case? Or perhaps they are kusala, but the kusala roots are not of > strong level? ------- N: The quote above refers to kusala citta. But the hesitation can also occur in the case of lobha-muulacitta and dosa-muulacitta. The latter two types can be unprompted or prompted. ***** Nina. #96436 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 12:57 pm Subject: Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions szmicio > > L: During ruupas studies with Connie i didn't find anything about > > pleasantness of ruupa. so here are my doubts. I especially mean > > Vibhanga here. > ------- > N: Vibhanga: Right at the beginning, 6: material quality? That material quality which, for this or that > being, is contemptible, despised, worthless, derisible, > disrespected,inferior, thought to be inferior, considered to be > inferior, undesirable, unattractive, unpleasant, (i.e.) the visible, > audible, odorous, sapid, tangible....> > As to superior: the opposite is said. L: Thanks for remind this point. > If there were not these differences how could there be akusala > vipaakacitta and kusala vipaakacitta. Different kammas have to > produce different results. L: yes, but no matter what, ruupa is always avyakata. and this avyakata kammaja-ruupa is also a vipaka,isnt it? My best wishes Lukas #96437 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 6:37 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. philofillet Hi again There is a mistake in what I wrote below: >>And I suppose if you stretch things you can say all the teachings come down to dhammas, but it is really stretching, I think. For example, I place a lot of emphasis on the Mangala sutta. When we are urged to support our loved ones and friends, it is the support that counts (and that means the way it is received) not the dhammas that we are aware of or not. Not all of the Buddha's teachings are about penetrative understanding of dhammas. > "and that means the way it is received" is wrong, of course. The point is not whether our support is received an/or appreciated, is beneficial etc. There is no tellling about that. The point is that we make the diligent, patient effort to provide support (yes, of course, it is dhammas that actually do it.) To do so, there has to be consideration of what are usually written off here as "just more stories about people and things." Those stories, reflections on other people's situations, for example, are not rejected by the Buddha, they are not wrong view, it is not possible to fulfill the "blessings" of the Mangala sutta, for example, without consideration of them. That's what I meant. OK, thanks, now I'm outta here until I post CMA. Metta, Phil #96438 From: "connie" Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 6:48 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. nichiconn Thanks, Sarah! I've really been puzzling over that. Even today when I looked "one last time" I still read "materiality" there and had to look even one more last time before I finally saw it... guess that's what good friends are for, to point out that what our perceptions stubbornly insist on just ain't really so. much relieved! not to mention happy i can go up and down the stairs - however awkwardly. connie --- On Sat, 7/3/09, connie wrote: >don't ask me to explain this! ... S: If this is what your text has, it's a typo: >Pts III 240. Body: there are two bodies: the mental body and the material body. What is the mental body? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention, *and materiality* are the mental body, and also what are called cognizance formations: these are the mental body. .... S: Our edition has: "Body: there are two bodies: the mental body and the material body. What is the mental body? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention, *and mentality* are the mental body, and also what are called cognizance formations: these are the mental body." #96439 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 10:20 pm Subject: Two Kinds! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Advantageous & the Detrimental! There are these two kinds of Desire: 1: The Advantageous Desire for unbinding, for release, for peace, for Nibbana... Why is this form of desire advantageous? Because it leads to lasting & ultimate safety, freedom, bliss and HAPPINESS!!! 2: The Detrimental Desire for forms, for body, for feelings, for perceptions, for mental constructions, for sensing, and for the various types of consciousness ... Why is this form of desire detrimental? Because it leads to repeated births, ageing, decaying, sickness & ever painful death!!! Because it leads to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, misery & desperate despair ... I tell you, because such desire leads to SUFFERING... These are the two kinds of Desire! There are these two kinds of Disgust: 1: The Advantageous Disgust towards forms, towards body, towards feelings, towards perceptions, towards mental constructions, towards sensing, towards the manifold and various types of consciousness, towards all internal and external ... Why is this form of disgust advantageous? Because it leads towards lasting & ultimate safety, freedom, bliss & HAPPINESS!!! 2: The Detrimental Disgust towards friends on the Noble life, towards morality, towards meditation, towards understanding, towards right view, towards right motivation, towards right speech, towards right behaviour, towards right livelihood, towards right effort, and towards right concentration... Why is this form of disgust detrimental? Because it leads to repeated births, ageing, decaying, sickness & ever painful death!!! Because it leads to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, misery & desperate despair ... I tell you, because such disgust leads to SUFFERING .. These are the two kinds of Disgust! <...> Have a nice disciminating desire day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Two Kinds! #96440 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Mar 9, 2009 12:56 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. ptaus1 Hi Scott, thanks for your reply. It helped clear up several things I was confusing. I think here is the crux of the matter: Scott: Since ruupa cannot know anything, cannot experience anything, >then it cannot be said that ruupa 'is a subjective cognition of >physical matter.' It can be said that ruupa is ruupa. Cognizing is >not a characteristic of ruupa. Nor can it be said, if this is what >you mean, that visible object is non-existent until it is seen - that >the seen is literally created by seeing consciousness. I agree with what you say above. What I'm trying to ask is a little bit different (or at least, it seems a bit different to me): Can it be said that ruupa is a subjective representation of physical matter? Or in other words, if that's a bit more clear – ruupa stands for the way (or, the manner in which) physical matter is cognised by senses and mind (cittas and cetasikas)? An example: say an external ruupa arises. As ruupa arises always in a kalaapa, that means that besides the four great elements, kalaapa also has visible object, odour, flavour and nutrition ruupas arising in it. All these are clearly related to the senses (except nutrition), so again I'm getting the idea that ruupa represents the way how physical matter is subjectively cognised – so, it seems like a representation of physical matter, not the matter itself. I'm guessing that if there was no eyesight in any human being, there would be no need to include visible object into a kalaapa, nor would a ruupa called "visible object" exist, while the actual external physical matter would still be there. Thanks pt #96441 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Mar 9, 2009 1:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for your reply. Here's the last question I have regarding ADL at the moment: Chapter 23: "Latent tendencies are accumulated in every citta, even in the bhavanga-citta (life-continuum) which does not experience an object through one of the sense-doors or the minddoor." How is it that accumulation happens during bhavanga-cittas? Does that mean that bhavanga-cittas produce kamma? So far I thought that accumulation happens only during javana cittas. Thanks pt #96442 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Mar 9, 2009 1:10 am Subject: Re: Two Kinds! ptaus1 Hi all, this sutta posted by Bhikkhu Samahita is very interesting. How would the "advantageous desire for unbinding, for release, etc" be defined in abhidhamma terms? Is it rooted in lobha or alobha? How can you tell in practice when you have a desire like this arising whether it's kusala or akusala? Thanks pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > > > > Friends: > > The Advantageous & the Detrimental! > > There are these two kinds of Desire: > 1: The Advantageous Desire for unbinding, for release, for peace, for Nibbana... > Why is this form of desire advantageous? > Because it leads to lasting & ultimate safety, freedom, bliss and HAPPINESS!!! > > 2: The Detrimental Desire for forms, for body, for feelings, for perceptions, for > mental constructions, for sensing, and for the various types of consciousness ... > Why is this form of desire detrimental? > Because it leads to repeated births, ageing, decaying, sickness & ever painful death!!! > Because it leads to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, misery & desperate despair ... > I tell you, because such desire leads to SUFFERING... > These are the two kinds of Desire! > #96443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 9, 2009 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 9-mrt-2009, om 9:03 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Chapter 23: "Latent tendencies are accumulated in every citta, even > in the bhavanga-citta (life-continuum) which does not experience an > object through one of the sense-doors or the minddoor." > > How is it that accumulation happens during bhavanga-cittas? Does > that mean that bhavanga-cittas produce kamma? So far I thought that > accumulation happens only during javana cittas. -------- N:True. During the javanacittas there are new accumulations, but these are carried on from one citta to the next one, also during the moments of bhavangacittas. In this sense one can say: latent tendencies are accumulated in every citta. Thus, this does not mean that the bhavangacittas are actively engaged with kusala or akusala. They are mere vipaakacittas. Nina. #96444 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 9, 2009 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two Kinds! nilovg Dear pt, Op 9-mrt-2009, om 9:10 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Hi all, this sutta posted by Bhikkhu Samahita is very interesting. > How would the "advantageous desire for unbinding, for release, etc" > be defined in abhidhamma terms? Is it rooted in lobha or alobha? ------ N: kusala chanda. Rooted in alobha and also amoha or pa~n~naa, otherwise it would not lead to unbinding. --------- > pt:How can you tell in practice when you have a desire like this > arising whether it's kusala or akusala? ------- N: Only pa~n~naa can. But in the beginning it cannot be clearly known. We usually name kusala and akusala. We take them for mine. Thus, at first whatever arises should be known as just a conditioned dhamma. It is understanding that will work its way. When we try to have wholesome desire the self is at work again. We like kusala and do not want akusala. Why? We cling to a self we want to be perfect. When we realize this it shows that there is already a degree of understanding. Nina. #96445 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 9, 2009 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 8-mrt-2009, om 20:57 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > If there were not these differences how could there be akusala > > vipaakacitta and kusala vipaakacitta. Different kammas have to > > produce different results. > > L: yes, but no matter what, ruupa is always avyakata. > and this avyakata kammaja-ruupa is also a vipaka,isnt it? ------ N: It is result of kamma, but it is not called vipaaka, since this term is used only for the mental result of kamma, vipaakacitta. -------- Nina. #96446 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 9, 2009 3:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta Corner. nilovg Dear Scott, Op 8-mrt-2009, om 16:15 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > Slowly, as I think about metta and its characteristic, I find that > I can start to see how very, very infrequently mettaa arises in a > day. I start to see how, more often than not, it is dosa or lobha. > As such, of course, it is easy to experience more of these and feel > discouraged about how little mettaa arises in a day and wish it > were not so. Why does it have to be dosa? Why can't it be mettaa > instead? No point in such thinking, though, as you discuss. ------- N: I sent this through to Lodewijk, it will encourage him. Before hearing Dhamma one has the illusion of having a great deal of metta and other kinds of kusala. As one hears the Dhamma one realizes the amount of avijjaa and akusala that has been accumulated, and this is a good sign. Nina. #96447 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Mar 9, 2009 5:09 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 Dear pt, Regarding: pt: "Can it be said that ruupa is a subjective representation of physical matter? Or in other words, if that's a bit more clear: ruupa stands for the way (or, the manner in which) physical matter is cognised by senses and mind (cittas and cetasikas)?" Scott: No, I don't see ruupa as 'a subjective representation of physical matter'. Any such subjectivity would, in my view, be naama. It seems, perhaps, as if the idea of 'brain' and concepts about the neuropsychology of perception persist in such a view. Ruupa is a reality in its own right. As such, I don't say it 'stands for' anything - that it is a representation - but is a reality in its own right. For example, in the Dhammasa"nga.ni (the first book of the Abhidhamma, p.156), ruupa (form) is said to be 'void of mental objects (anaaramma.na.m), not a mental property (acetasika.m), [and] disconnected with thought.' The 'representation' would have to be, in my opinion, naama. pt: "...All these are clearly related to the senses (except nutrition), so again I'm getting the idea that ruupa represents the way how physical matter is subjectively cognised so, it seems like a representation of physical matter, not the matter itself. I'm guessing that if there was no eyesight in any human being, there would be no need to include visible object into a kalaapa, nor would a ruupa called 'visible object' exist, while the actual external physical matter would still be there." Scott: Ruupa and 'physical matter' would be synonymous, as I see it. In the above it seems as if ruupa is considered to be one thing and 'physical matter' as another. Ruupa can be external and it can be internal. Internal ruupa is the ruupa of the body - the pasaada ruupas. Again, from Dhammasa"nga.ni (p.158): "What is [material form that is derived]? The sphere of vision, smell, hearing, taste, body-sensibility; the sphere of sights, odours, sounds, tastes; woman-faculty, man-faculty, life-faculty; inimation by act, by speech; the element of space; bouyancy of form, plasticity ... wieldiness ... integration ... maintenance ... decay ... impermanence of form; solid nutriment." Scott: In the above, vision, for example, is one sphere, sights another, and so on. In other words, the ruupa that is eye-base is only sensitive to visible object - this ruupa is not sensitive to, say, odour. Eye-consciousness only arises at the eye-base in relation to visible object - nowhere else and not in relation to any other external ruupa. I'll stop here for now. Sincerely, Scott. #96448 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Mar 9, 2009 8:06 am Subject: Re: Metta Corner. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: "I sent this through to Lodewijk, it will encourage him. Before hearing Dhamma one has the illusion of having a great deal of metta and other kinds of kusala. As one hears the Dhamma one realizes the amount of avijjaa and akusala that has been accumulated, and this is a good sign." Scott: That's good, Nina. I know I have this illusion of having a great deal of mettaa. Who wouldn't? It is such a desirable quality to have, one says to one's self. And we know this is lobha talking. And we know that such is not the way to the arising of mettaa. I've thought that this recent experience of, seemingly, more and more akusala is merely an artifact of catching up with the reality of the ordinary person - more akusala than kusala. I think it *is* good - when the mind isn't caught up in how horrible it is - to begin to have conditions to notice such things and for more patience in regards to such things. It's hard to wait for when the dosa that is present falls away, to wait for the mettaa that is unarisen to arise. This is necessary, since one can't make mettaa be there when its not. My best to Lodewijk. (I very much appreciate his good, earnest, and well-asked questions on the recordings!) Sincererly, Scott. #96449 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Mar 9, 2009 4:50 pm Subject: patience gazita2002 hallo all, yesterday I found a little book dated 2519 BE [this year is 2552].I used to write in this book at classses with Phra Dhammadharo, in Bkk. "no matter what worry may arise, what doubt may arise, it is all just worry and doubt, there can be awareness of these realities. Wisdom can be No1 and No2. No1 is wisdom [panna] at just the thinking level then No2 is the panna which knows a characteristic of a reality - a nama or a rupa. There is no need to be discouraged because it is not self who performs kusala or akusala. Dont be discouraged, it takes a great deal of patience." patience, courage and good cheer azita #96450 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Mar 9, 2009 8:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for your reply and for explaining about kusala chanda. And I'd like to thank you once again for replying to all my questions about ADL, it really feels like a great privilege to be able to ask you all this. I'll take a little break now for a few weeks - I'd like to finish reading your book about ruupa as well as Conditions before I come back with more questions. Best wishes pt #96451 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Mar 9, 2009 8:20 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. ptaus1 Hi Scott, thanks for your reply. I think I understand now what you are saying. The quote from Dhammasangani was also helpful. In fact, I think you were saying the same thing all along, just that I couldn't understand it until now. Thanks for your patience. Best wishes #96452 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, you are wellcome any time. Your questions are inspiring. Nina. Op 10-mrt-2009, om 4:12 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > I'll take a little break now for a few weeks - I'd like to finish > reading your book about ruupa as well as Conditions before I come > back with more questions. #96453 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] patience nilovg Dear Azita (and Lukas), Op 10-mrt-2009, om 0:50 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > yesterday I found a little book dated 2519 BE [this year is 2552].I > used to write in this book at classses with Phra Dhammadharo, in Bkk. > > "no matter what worry may arise, what doubt may arise, it is all > just worry and doubt, there can be awareness of these realities. > Wisdom can be No1 and No2. No1 is wisdom [panna] at just the > thinking level then No2 is the panna which knows a characteristic > of a reality - a nama or a rupa. > There is no need to be discouraged because it is not self who > performs kusala or akusala. Dont be discouraged, it takes a great > deal of patience." ------ N: This is wonderful. Please, can you more often quote from this book, Lukas will be so glad. Looking forward to more. I heard a question: Q: How does intellectual understanding become direct understanding? Kh S: No self, only dhammas. N: A short but very meaningful answer. Worth considering thoroughly. I had an exchange with Kh Poranee: P: When I am very busy of doing something or when I am facing difficulties/problems in daily life,it seems I do not have Sati and I do not see reality at all----for the whole day even for days. -------- N: Whatever arises, also forgetfulness, is only a dhamma that is conditioned. We should not mind lack of sati, then we cling to a self who wants sati. What matters most is understanding. This is conditioned by listening. While we listen and consider the Dhamma we heard, there is more and more intellectual understanding. It grows, but we may not notice that it grows, it grows so gradually, slowly. This is the condition that there will be sometimes sati and some beginning direct understanding. Only one moment now and then, but we cannot expect many moments. We have accumulated too much avijjaa. We also have to be careful not to confuse thinking of a reality and sati. When sati arises it does so unplanned, unexpectantly. Best not to think of it, this induces lobha. Kh Sujin said: do not think of sati, it is understanding that is important. When there are conditions sati can arise, also when we are having problems, but nobody can cause its arising. It arises because of its own conditions, it is anattaa. -------- BTW, your postal address? In a few weeks when Lodewijk has finished going through the editor's remarks about his memoires, he will start sending the rupa books. Nina. #96454 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:56 am Subject: death of a friend nilovg Dear Sarah, Jon and all concerned, Khun Poranee wrote to me: This touched me very much since we have known her for so long. When still living in Bgk I used to drive Kh Sujin and Kh Kulin on Sunday to Wat Mahataat where Kh S. held her lectures. Before quoting from the Tipitaka Kh Sujin wanted to consult the commentaries, but these were not translated yet into Thai. There was only the Abhidhamattha Sangaha and co in Thai. We used to visit a monk in Wat Bovorn and Kh Kulin would jot down all the translations from Pali into Thai. Kh Kulin said to me later on that she had not realized at that time what treasures she was dealing with. Kh Sujin gave the initiative for translations into Thai of the commentaries. Acharn Somporn translated almost all of them from that time on. I had seen Kh Kulin very shortly this time at Kh Duangduen's place. We went many, many times together on India trips. You may have heard that Kunying Nopparat passed away this summer? We used to spend many a lovely day in her house with Dhamma talks, yhtroughout the years. Our whole generation is falling away now, one after the other. It is natural but still strikes me. Nina. #96455 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] death of a friend sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Lodewijk), --- On Tue, 10/3/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: .... S: Thank you for passing this on. We didn't know and are sorry to hear this. ... >I had seen Kh Kulin very shortly this time at Kh Duangduen's place. We went many, many times together on India trips. ... S: Yes, I spoke to her briefly the day of the Moon festival at lunch. We knew she'd been ill for a long time and I asked her how she was. In her usual, cheery voice she told me she wasn't well and laughed. She always seemed in such good humour, even then, just before passing away. That's how I remember her on my first trip to India with the group - laughing and smiling all the time, no matter how tired we were or what the conditions were like. I know that she and K.Sujin were always very close friends. As you say, she always had a deep interest in the Dhamma, though I never had more than a few words with her at a time because of our language limitations. ... >Our whole generation is falling away now, one after the other. It is natural but still strikes me. ... S: Yes, we know it's inevitable and yet we're bound to be affected. Gain and loss all the time due to our thoughts about ourselves and our own feelings at such times. It reminds me that I so much of the day concerned about minor issues, always forgetting that death can come anytime, no matter which generation we are. All that matters is the understanding of the reality appearing now. We can be glad that she spent such a long part of her life assisting the spread of the Teachings and inspiring others with her understanding, confidence and good humour. Thank you again for letting us know. It's fortunate that K.Sujin and friends must be back in Bangkok now for the funeral days. I know you would have liked to be present, but we can show our respect by reflecting on the Dhamma and sharing it too, as you always do. Please share any further discussions you and Lodwijk have on this or other topics. Metta, Sarah ========= #96456 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:24 am Subject: Medin Poya Day! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Medin Poya day is the full-moon of March. This holy day celebrates that the Buddha visits his parental home after his supreme Enlightenment, and ordains his son prince R Ä hula , & half brother Nanda . This day is also called: The Sangha Day, since on this full-moon 1250 Arahats spontaneously met & assembled around the Buddha without any call. Buddha then spoke the famous Ovada Patimokkha core teaching! On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect, keep & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Lying & Cheating. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! The journey towards NibbÄna: The Deathless is hereby started! This is the Noble Way to Absolute Peace, to Complete Freedom, to Ultimate Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps also the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town, & country to me or join here . A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global web Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The New Noble Community of Buddha's Disciples: The Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift, and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Buddha with his Rahula who also awakened into enlightenment! Medin Poya Day! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #96457 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Corner. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Scott, --- On Sun, 8/3/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >N: We do not know the cittas of others from moment to moment. We can only have more understanding of our own cittas. ... S: This is a good and important point which I always appreciate. ... >N: Another point: We discussed in Bgk about metta towards the dead and Kh Sujin said that the Vis. mentioned that when taking a dead person as subject of metta, metta could not be further developed so that jhaana could be attained. ... S: This was clear in the context of when we don't know someone is dead, like in the example Herman gave of his aunt. Metta, but not to jhana level. ... >But just as we can think with aversion about a person who has passed away, evenso we can think with metta about that person. ... S: This is the note I wrote after the second discussion with KS when I asked for clarification about when we know the person has died: "........If it's kusala, we don't have to think about what it's called. With regard to the dead and other realms, metta cannot develop when there is not a person as object. It depends on the thinking whether it's kusala or just with attachment....." Metta, Sarah ======= #96458 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. sarahprocter... Hi Connie, --- On Mon, 9/3/09, connie wrote: >Even today when I looked "one last time" I still read "materiality" there and had to look even one more last time before I finally saw it... guess that's what good friends are for, to point out that what our perceptions stubbornly insist on just ain't really so. ... S: Sa~n~naa tricks us all the time, doesn't it? I'll swear that I remember putting my keys in my bag when I went out, have all the places I've visited making searches, only to find them sitting at home.... and then I find I make the same typos or make the same mistakes when I speak... ... >much relieved! not to mention happy i can go up and down the stairs - however awkwardly. ... S: That's good.... give this one plenty of time.... I see a hip specialist tomorrow...might as well know what's involved if it really needs the knife while I try all the alternatives... Metta, Sarah ====== #96459 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. sarahprocter... Dear Phil & all, [Looking at the subject heading reminds me that I saw a programme on TV showing how intelligent humans are less intelligent than sea-lions when it comes to certain kinds of problem-solving, so it all depends how intelligence is being measured, I suppose....] --- On Mon, 9/3/09, Phil wrote: >"and that means the way it is received" is wrong, of course. The point is not whether our support is received an/or appreciated, is beneficial etc. There is no tellling about that. The point is that we make the diligent, patient effort to provide support (yes, of course, it is dhammas that actually do it.) ... S: :-)) Of course, like Lukas when he asks his good questions, you know the answers really:-)). ... >To do so, there has to be consideration of what are usually written off here as "just more stories about people and things." Those stories, reflections on other people's situations, for example, are not rejected by the Buddha, they are not wrong view, it is not possible to fulfill the "blessings" of the Mangala sutta, for example, without consideration of them. ... S: Yes, understood. Of course when there is kindness or consideration towards others, there have to be reflections on the situations and so on and of course this is not wrong view. However, as you also pointed out in the Dhp verse about association with the wise and foolish, such verses and suttas and truths can be appreciated at different levels, depending on the understanding at the time. Anyway, you know all that:-). ... >That's what I meant. OK, thanks, now I'm outta here until I post CMA. ... S: I'm glad you clarified. See you in the CMA corner, which 'may or may not happen' as you said! Metta, Sarah ======= #96460 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Working backwards... --- On Sun, 8/3/09, Phil wrote: > S: I'll look forward to that. I find it more useful to discuss 'dhammas' than to discuss 'approaches' , but then, whatever the topic it comes back to dhammas anyway! .... >Ph: Well, it certainly does with you Sarah! And I suppose if you stretch things you can say all the teachings come down to dhammas, but it is really stretching, I think. .... S: Even when so-called 'stretching' or being considerate by reflecting on particular situations, for example, aren't there only dhammas at work? ... >On the other hand, I agree it is useful to sometimes make the leap to reduce very conventionally worded teachings to dhammas. For example, asevana ca balana, pandita nan ca sevana, don't associate with the fool, associate with the wise person, it is helpful to think not only of the people we associate with but the mind states that we harbour, or don't. And that is getting closer to the dhammas involved. ... S: Yes, well said. We can reflect wisely on different levels, but for direct understanding to develop, there has to be the wise reflection of dhammas, of namas and rupas appearing now. ... >I'm sure developing understanding of Dhamma means getting close and closer to the dhammas involved. I just find you folks want everyone to make the leap too soon too fast. ... S: I know you think so. I'm not sure I mind so much about whether others make any so-called leap, but just like to share what seems so precious to me. Most my friends and family have no interest at any level in the Dhamma, but it doesn't bother me. If they don't wish to hear any of these 'gems', why force-feed it? .... >Anyways, see you again at some point. The CMA thing may or may not happen.... ... S: You see, we are confident that despite all sorts of protestations to the contrary at times, you reflect deeply on the Dhamma and dhammas and this is why we're not shy to encourage you to consider a leap from time to time:-). See you later... Metta, Sarah ======== #96461 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Corner. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 10-mrt-2009, om 11:33 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: This is the note I wrote after the second discussion with KS > when I asked for clarification about when we know the person has died: > > "........If it's kusala, we don't have to think about what it's > called. With regard to the dead and other realms, metta cannot > develop when there is not a person as object. It depends on the > thinking whether it's kusala or just with attachment....." -------- N: I found at first: not knowing whether someone is dead (Herman), a bit farfetched. And the second note: I get it that we should not name the kusala, whether it is metta or something else. As to other realms, metta cannot develop, thus becoming more and more. Perhaps the whole point is somewhat speculative. Nina. #96462 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:11 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 Dear pt, Regarding: "...I think I understand now what you are saying. The quote from Dhammasangani was also helpful. In fact, I think you were saying the same thing all along, just that I couldn't understand it until now. Thanks for your patience." Scott: I'm glad that helped. I've been told that I repeat myself. I think it might be old age setting in. It may have been patience or merely evidence for cognitive decline in a fifty year old. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #96463 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Corner. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- On Tue, 10/3/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > S: This is the note I wrote after the second discussion with KS > when I asked for clarification about when we know the person has died: > > "........If it's kusala, we don't have to think about what it's > called. With regard to the dead and other realms, metta cannot > develop when there is not a person as object. It depends on the > thinking whether it's kusala or just with attachment.. ..." -------- >N: I found at first: not knowing whether someone is dead (Herman), a bit farfetched. ... S: The point, as I understood, is that there may well be metta towards a person before we've heard they've passed away. No reason why not. ... >And the second note: I get it that we should not name the kusala, whether it is metta or something else. As to other realms, metta cannot develop, thus becoming more and more. Perhaps the whole point is somewhat speculative. ... S: And here, as I understood, we cannot say that now when we think of our friend who recently died that it's metta. because we know there is no longer the living person. However, as you said to Scott before, there can still be kusala cittas when we think about that person in the past, for example. If it's kusala reflection, it doesn't much matter what it's called. Usually, of course, it's thinking with attachment, as you and Scott have been stressing. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you for posting the further details on the anusayas and quotes from the comy to the Patisambhidamagga. I believe this was also in one of the Foundation Issues you translated before. Lots of good material. ======= #96464 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Corner. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 10-mrt-2009, om 12:20 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: And here, as I understood, we cannot say that now when we think > of our friend who recently died that it's metta. because we know > there is no longer the living person. However, as you said to Scott > before, there can still be kusala cittas when we think about that > person in the past, for example. If it's kusala reflection, it > doesn't much matter what it's called. ----- N: Right. I think a lot now of Kh Kulin, of her good deeds in the past. This can be with appreciation. But mixed with attachment or other kinds of akusala. We can extend merit. Nina. #96465 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. philofillet Hi Sarah > S: Yes, understood. Of course when there is kindness or consideration towards others, there have to be reflections on the situations and so on and of course this is not wrong view. Ph: I'm a bit surprised to hear you say this, because at the strictest definition of wrong view, it is wrong view - where there are beings, there is wrong view, according to that chariot simile. The chariot simile *does* show Buddhist right view at a very deep level. But I always think that we aren't there yet and needn't aspire to that kind of deep right view. Rare flashes of it? Yes, but no telling. >>>However, as you also pointed out in the Dhp verse about association with the wise and foolish, such verses and suttas and truths can be appreciated at different levels, depending on the understanding at the time. > > Anyway, you know all that:-). Ph: Yes. You know Sarah, we're not that far apart, really. There's no need to agree completely, but the reason I get frustrated is that I can sense there is a lot of value in Abhidhamma and the way it is taught by A.S and discussed by you. A lot of frustration too because there is a lack of flexibility, I think, a lack of generosity towards other approaches. Anyways, nice to end this visit on a friendly note for a change. > >That's what I meant. OK, thanks, now I'm outta here until I post CMA. > ... > S: I'm glad you clarified. See you in the CMA corner, which 'may or may not happen' as you said! Ph: We'll see. I might do it at the new Theravadin version of e-sangha, Dhammwheel. I like it there because there are smiley icons and limerick contests and threads to send metta to scared people and things like that. There is an Abhidhamma corner there where questioning the authenticity of Abhidhamma is not permitted. I like to question the veracity fo Abhidhamma at times, but when I study it I like a place where that isn't permitted! Metta, Phil #96466 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:11 am Subject: Re: death of a friend philofillet Hi Nina Sorry for you loss. The description below is quite inspiring. Metta, Phil When > still living in Bgk I used to drive Kh Sujin and Kh Kulin on Sunday > to Wat Mahataat where Kh S. held her lectures. Before quoting from > the Tipitaka Kh Sujin wanted to consult the commentaries, but these > were not translated yet into Thai. There was only the Abhidhamattha > Sangaha and co in Thai. We used to visit a monk in Wat Bovorn and Kh > Kulin would jot down all the translations from Pali into Thai. Kh > Kulin said to me later on that she had not realized at that time what > treasures she was dealing with. Kh Sujin gave the initiative for > translations into Thai of the commentaries. Acharn Somporn translated > almost all of them from that time on. > #96467 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- On Tue, 10/3/09, Phil wrote: >> S: Yes, understood. Of course when there is kindness or consideration towards others, there have to be reflections on the situations and so on and of course this is not wrong view. >Ph: I'm a bit surprised to hear you say this, because at the strictest definition of wrong view, it is wrong view - where there are beings, there is wrong view, according to that chariot simile. ... S: There's an important point here to clarify, I think. Most of the day, we're thinking of people and situations, usually with attachment, aversion or ignorance, occasionally with metta and other good qualities. At such times, wrong view doesn't arise unless particular cittas with wrong view take the people or situations for lasting wholes with atta-belief or think wrongly in some other way. A child may play all day with his/her toys with lots and lots of ignorance and attachment, but without any wrong view. So it's not the thinking about people and situations that goes on in a day for worldlings or ariyans which is indicative of how much wrong view there is. Also, in my comment above about kindness and consideration and thinking about people, I was also stressing that at such times (of wholesome reflection with metta), there cannot be wrong view. Wrong view can only arise with cittas rooted in attachment. .... >The chariot simile *does* show Buddhist right view at a very deep level. But I always think that we aren't there yet and needn't aspire to that kind of deep right view. Rare flashes of it? Yes, but no telling. .... S: The simile again doesn't mean that we don't think about chariots (or cars) or (conventional) objects, but that we come to understand, as you say, "Buddhist right view at a very deep level". At this deep level, right understanding realises that there are no 'wholes', no 'chariots'. There are only namas and rupas. I don't think there's any conflict between understanding the dhammas at this deep level and leading our normal life, being considerate and attached to other people, going to work, living in an apartment or house and so on. Do you? I agree that most of the time there is little right understanding and it's not so much a matter of aspiring to anything, but by getting more and more used to the 'deep level', we get more and more used to understanding the dhammas as making up our daily life. ... >Ph: Yes. You know Sarah, we're not that far apart, really. There's no need to agree completely, ... S: Good! ... >Anyways, nice to end this visit on a friendly note for a change. ... S: Oh, I thought thery were usually friendly notes.... Metta, Sarah ======== #96468 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:16 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. philofillet Hi again Sarah > S: The simile again doesn't mean that we don't think about chariots (or cars) or (conventional) objects, but that we come to understand, as you say, "Buddhist right view at a very deep level". At this deep level, right understanding realises that there are no 'wholes', no 'chariots'. There are only namas and rupas. I don't think there's any conflict between understanding the dhammas at this deep level and leading our normal life, being considerate and attached to other people, going to work, living in an apartment or house and so on. Do you? No, no problem there. I think this is a sensible way to approach the Dhamma. But I would like to be aware of the way the "Abhidhamma is not in the book, it is in daily life" attitude might encourage one to *try* to have vipassana in daily life, thus missing the boat. I know I used to, it was just these many, many, many flashes of trying to know nama from rupa, etc. To me that is much more "trying to control cittas" than being mindful of a meditation object (which comes to the attention, and falls away again) while sitting, for one example. Anyways, nice touching bases with you, I'll be back at some point, I'm sure, for another visit, maybe the CMA. Metta, Phil #96469 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:59 am Subject: Fwd: Khun Kulin nilovg Dear Sarah, Jon and all concerned, You may be interested to read this fwd from Kh Poranee. Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Van: Poranee Klinchan-Raftopoulos > Datum: 10 maart 2009 19:45:44 GMT+01:00 > Aan: Nina van Gorkom > Onderwerp: Khun Kulin > > Dear Khun Nina > > I transfered your heartfelt condolences to Khun Lin and Khun > Saowakul (Kh Kulin's daughter whom > Kh Kulin had lived with). Both of them asked me to transfer their > appriciation to you. > Khun Saowakul has known you when she joined the India-Nepal trip > with Tarn Arjarn Sujin in 2000. > She said to me that she remembered you and Khun Lodewijk and your > kindness and also > when her mother told her stories about the past her mother often > mentioned about you. > > As Khun Saowakul told me, Khun Kulin had little pain at one eye > for few days before being taken > to the hospital . She was taken care in I.C.U. unconciously and > passed away peacefully after > 8 days. > > Khun kulin had kidney/blood cleaned at the hospital twice weekly > (like my father) for almost 2 years. > While 4 hours blood cleaning at the hospital,she listened to > Dhamma--Tarn Ajarn Sujin tape. > Also in I.C.U. Tarn Ajarn Sujin tape was opened all the time for > evereyone---Khun Kulin and her > family members. Khun Saowakul said listening to Dhamma in > I.C.U.room near her mother made > her learned something about Dhamma. > > Thank you very much for your avise about Dhamma in daily life > > With respect and best regards > > Poranee #96470 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:48 pm Subject: Re: patience glenjohnann Dear Nina and others > P: When I am very busy of doing something or when I am facing > difficulties/problems in daily life,it seems I do not have Sati and I > do not see reality at all----for the whole day even for days. > -------- > N: Whatever arises, also forgetfulness, is only a dhamma that is > conditioned. We should not mind lack of sati, then we cling to a self > who wants sati. What matters most is understanding. Poranee's comment above and your response, Nina, remind me of an incident last month in Bangkok. Pinna and I were driving home from the Foundation with Achan Sujin and her sister in their car. After about 1/2 an hour, as we approached the area of Pinna's apartment, I looked down at my feet and saw that I did not have my shoes on. So, I searched around for them on the floor in the front seat of the car and realized that I had left them at the Foundation. I was aghast and made some sound of disgust at which point the others asked what was wrong. I told them that my shoes were at the Foundation (a most un-Thai thing to have done). I was feeling a little embarassed about it. There was a drawing of breath and then a burst of giggles from the back seat and Acharn said quietly "anatta" -- a very good reminder! Ann #96471 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:16 pm Subject: Re: patience szmicio Dear Azita and Nina Azita wrote: yesterday I found a little book dated 2519 BE [this year is 2552].I used to write in this book at classses with Phra Dhammadharo, in Bkk. "no matter what worry may arise, what doubt may arise, it is all just worry and doubt, there can be awareness of these realities. Wisdom can be No1 and No2. No1 is wisdom [panna] at just the thinking level then No2 is the panna which knows a characteristic of a reality - a nama or a rupa. There is no need to be discouraged because it is not self who performs kusala or akusala. Dont be discouraged, it takes a great deal of patience." L: Wonderful. Thank you very much Azita for this quote. Do you have more? ---- > I had an exchange with Kh Poranee: > > P: When I am very busy of doing something or when I am facing > difficulties/problems in daily life,it seems I do not have Sati and I > do not see reality at all----for the whole day even for days. > -------- > N: Whatever arises, also forgetfulness, is only a dhamma that is > conditioned. We should not mind lack of sati, then we cling to a self > who wants sati. What matters most is understanding. L: Bhante Dhammadara said: "We have to drop all our ideas that we are going to do it right this time, we are going to do it straight, we are going to have it now, we are going to be aware of this or that. At those moments there is no awareness. One moment of real awareness in one lifetime - very rich man because it is right and it will condition more of the same. Countless moments of wrong awareness and you are not only not wealthy, you are getting poorer every moment, because you are accumulating more and more wrong understanding. This will make it more likely to have more wrong understanding in the future. So, right understanding, not intention, is the condition for awareness to arise. Right understanding is not only one of the factors of the eightfold Path, it is the first factor." L: especially: "At those moments there is no awareness. One moment of real awareness in one lifetime - very rich man because it is right and it will condition more of the same." L: That's a good reminder to all of us to be patient and not looking for sati or mislead ourselves about sati. Sati is hard. I think that's all normal if there is no Sati. Do not have sati is very natural. That's daily life that matters. Sati cannot arise with Self. Sati is anatta, without control. No one can induce or direct sati. That's so big relief. Nothing to do, just fleeting dhammas here and now. My best wishes Lukas #96472 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:35 pm Subject: Re: patience szmicio Dear Ann Nice to hear you. I didnt know before what's your login on DSG. But now I find it out. > Pinna and I were driving home from the Foundation with Achan Sujin and her sister in their car. After about 1/2 an hour, as we approached the area of Pinna's apartment, I looked down at my feet and saw that I did not have my shoes on. So, I searched around for them on the floor in the front seat of the car and realized that I had left them at the Foundation. I was aghast and made some sound of disgust at which point the others asked what was wrong. I told them that my shoes were at the Foundation (a most un-Thai thing to have done). I was feeling a little embarassed about it. There was a drawing of breath and then a burst of giggles from the back seat and Acharn said quietly "anatta" -- a very good reminder! L: very good reminder. all is anatta. No matter what, each thought is conditioned, We can learn from daily life about it, in each daily situation. No need for regret or embarassment, when citta experience its objects there is no self anywhere. Even if there is embarassment that's another conditioned moment. another citta experiences its object. I like this quote from Questionare 203, about khandhas: "203. But as regards the "objects" triads (aaramma.nattika) (nos.13,16,19, 21) <62.39>, four aggregates have limited objects (parittaaramma. na) in one who lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who comprehends, who reviews, through being instigated by the 55 states of the sense sphere. They have expanded objects (mahaggataaramma. na) in one who lusts, who hates, who is deluded, who restrains, who establishes the laying hold through being instigated by the 27 fine-material and immaterial states; they have boundless objects (appamaa.naaramma. na) in one who reviews through being instigated by paths, fruition and nibbaana. At the time of reviewing a concept they should not be said to have [such] objects (na vattabbaaramma. naa) <62.41>." L: Just objects change. I am not sure I grasped this passage in proper context, but for now that's how i understand it. I also remember Ajahn words. she said "we live in kammavacara plane, so that's usual and very natural that we experience so much akusala." And she add "do we want to change it for jhanacitta? There is no need to, there is kammavacara world now." That's a few reminders from me. have a nice day. My best wishes Lukas #96473 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] patience gazita2002 hallo Nina, Lukas and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Azita (and Lukas), > > Op 10-mrt-2009, om 0:50 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > > > yesterday I found a little book dated 2519 BE [this year is 2552].I > > used to write in this book at classses with Phra Dhammadharo, in Bkk. > > > > "no matter what worry may arise, ...snip.... > > deal of patience." > ------ > N: This is wonderful. Please, can you more often quote from this > book, Lukas will be so glad. > Looking forward to more. azita: more from the little book; 'at class at night, we do not talk about things which are not part of our daily life. The things we do during our day are, in reality, naama and ruupa. this is the reality of 'our' life - this is a lifelong exercise because nothing is other than naama and ruupa - except the things we think about" "Kamma results in vipaaka cittas - in seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and feeling thro body sense" > > I heard a question: Q: How does intellectual understanding become > direct understanding? > Kh S: No self, only dhammas. > > N: A short but very meaningful answer. Worth considering thoroughly. azita: her answers are very much to the point arent they? In my little book I have written: "we are never free of Abhidhamma. People who have never heard of it are not free of a'dhamma; people who have heard but hate it are not free of a'dhamma; people who love it but never follow it and vice versa, are never free of it" Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #96474 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:58 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. scottduncan2 Dear pt, Here's a bit from the audio (2007-01-09-bmp.3). I thought it a propos: Kh Sujin: "...If there is no understanding of any characteristic right now, it's impossible to understand dhaatu...Let's say that we don't know anything right now. Is there something [that appears] right now? Is there anything that appears right now?" Q: "Dhamma..." Kh. Sujin: "Don't say that it's dhamma. What appears?" Q: "Some experience..." Kh. Sujin: "What is it?" Q: "Seeing." Kh. Sujin: "Seeing? So, seeing is real. We start here. Seeing is real. Do we know anything about seeing? Not yet, but it's here. Can we have seeing at will? Can we condition to have seeing? No, so can we understand - " Q: "No, well, wait - we can - because in the big story we think, 'Oh well, I'll shut my eyes and I can't see' but when you do take it to that moment-by-moment, you can't control what you see at all - " Kh. Sujin: "Okay, can you have the eye-base at will? So can you have seeing at will? We have to come deeper and deeper to the source of seeing, that it's conditioned. Without the eye-base it's impossible. Even [though] there is eye-base conditioned by kamma arising and falling away, without the visible object which contacts at that very moment there cannot be seeing - nothing can appear. So we see that just that - the eye-base - only that ruupa can condition the visible object to appear. It's like the taste or the flavour. It's in the kalaapa. The ruupa hardness and softness is there. But without the tongue-base, can the taste appear? So we can see that they are all dhammaa. No self. No one at all. If we think and understand, but if we take it for granted it seems like we can do anything. We're born with eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind but who conditions all these realities to arise? Some [don't] have eye-base, some [don't] have ear-base. Why? And we have different [thinking]. Why do we have such different thoughts? According to each moment which is accumulated long, long, long, long time ago up to this moment. We don't know what will be out next thinking - kusala or akusala. So why do we fear anything to arise because there are conditions for it's arising anytime." Sincerely, Scott. #96475 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. jonoabb Hi Phil Nice to see you around ;-)) > Ph: I suppose if you stretch things you can say all the teachings come down to dhammas, but it is really stretching, I think. For example, I place a lot of emphasis on the Mangala sutta. When we are urged to support our loved ones and friends, it is the support that counts (and that means the way it is received) not the dhammas that we are aware of or not. Not all of the Buddha's teachings are about penetrative understanding of dhammas. I wonder whether it's true to say (as you do) that the Mangala Sutta is not about the penetrative understanding of dhammas. The list of blessings in the sutta begins with: Not to associate with the foolish, but to associate with the wise. The wise are those whose understanding is more highly developed than our own, and who can help us to understand better the path taught by the Buddha. The benefit of the association is to hear the teaching that is unique to the Buddhas. Other blessings mentioned in the sutta that suggest the development of understanding are: - To reside in a suitable locality, to have performed meritorious deeds in the past, and to set oneself in the right direction; - Reverence, humility, contentment, gratitude, and the timely hearing of the Dhamma; - Patience, obedience, meeting the Samanas (holy men), and timely discussions on the Dhamma; - Comprehension of the Noble Truths, and the realisation of Nibbana - A mind that is not touched by the vicissitudes of life, a mind that is free from sorrow, stainless, and secure Those blessings in the sutta that seem mundane in comparison (supporting one's parents, for example) need to be understood in the context of these many blessings that directly relate to the development of understanding. Jon #96476 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. philofillet Hi Jon > I wonder whether it's true to say (as you do) that the Mangala Sutta is not about the penetrative understanding of dhammas. I'll just say here that I don't think I said that, and if I did, I take it back. What I said or meant was that there is a very important level at which it is to be appreciated in a way that is not about the penetrative understanding of dhammas. For example, it is widely appreciated in Buddhist countries by lay followers in a way that is not about the penetrative understanding of dhammas. I think the Buddhist lay followers that you have come to know at the foundation are far more oriented to having an interesting in the penetrative understanding of dhammas than lay followers in general. As for lay follwers in the Buddha's day, I don't know. But unless one is to reject lay Buddhism as it is practiced today on the whole (and I think that is often rejected here, and sometimes with good reason when one considers all the money involved in Buddhist lay practice today, all the corruptions) one cannot deny that this wonderful sutta is to be appreciated at a very important level without consideration of fleeting dhammas. In his series of talks on the sutta, Bhikkhu Bodhi certainly makes that clear, but that doesn't prove anything, I know. I'll leave it there for now Jon. I appreciate your taking time to comment on the sutta, which you know I love so. I'll get back to it the next time I visit. Sorry if I don't get back to any replies on this. Metta, Phil p.s it seems there is a progression through the Mangala sutta, so that towards the end it is indeed all about deep understanding. I hardly ever reach the end when reflecting on the sutta, the end is not about where my understanding is at. #96477 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:04 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. scottduncan2 Dear Phil and Jon, Regarding: P: "...What I said or meant was that there is a very important level at which it is to be appreciated in a way that is not about the penetrative understanding of dhammas. For example, it is widely appreciated in Buddhist countries by lay followers in a way that is not about the penetrative understanding of dhammas. I think the Buddhist lay followers that you have come to know at the foundation are far more oriented to having an interesting in the penetrative understanding of dhammas than lay followers in general. As for lay follwers in the Buddha's day, I don't know. But unless one is to reject lay Buddhism as it is practiced today on the whole (and I think that is often rejected here, and sometimes with good reason when one considers all the money involved in Buddhist lay practice today, all the corruptions) one cannot deny that this wonderful sutta is to be appreciated at a very important level without consideration of fleeting dhammas. In his series of talks on the sutta, Bhikkhu Bodhi certainly makes that clear, but that doesn't prove anything, I know." Scott: In the sutta, the phrase 'Not to associate with the foolish, but to associate with the wise' is not to be misunderstood. A look at the Paa.li shows why. We have: 'Asevanaa baalaana.m pa.n.ditaana~nca sevanaa.' The 'wise' is 'pa.n.dita' and this is synonymous with the adjectival form of pa~n~naa; PTS PED: "Pa~n~na ( -- pa~n~na) (adj.) [the adj. form of pa~n~naa] of wisdom, en- dowed with knowledge or insight, possessed of the highest cognition ... By itself (i. e. not in cpd.) only at Dh 208 (=lokiyalokuttara -- pa~n~naaya sampanna ... " Scott: Associating with the wise can only refer to pa~n~naa. Baalaa is 'Baala 1 (adj.) ... its orig. meaning is 'young, unable to speak' ... lacking in reason, devoid of the power to think & act right. In the latter sense sometimes coupled with andha (spiritually blind), as andhabaala stupid & ignorant, mentally dull ..." Clearly, this refers to ignorance imbuing citta with it's flavour. The wise is citta with pa~n~naa, the foolish is citta with avijja. This can only refer to the necessity of the development of pa~n~naa. I don't think there is any other important level to consider. How is the wise known? How is the foolish known? Sincerely, Scott. #96478 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:10 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. scottduncan2 Dear Phil and Jon, Regarding: Me: "...A look at the Paa.li shows why. We have: 'Asevanaa baalaana.m pa.n.ditaana~nca sevanaa.'..." Scott: This was done in haste, so I'll add (PTS PED): "Pa.n.dita (adj.) ... wise, clever, skilled, circumspect, intelligent ... (opp. baala; =sappa~n~na ... (=pa~n~na) ..." Sincerely, Scott. #96479 From: "colette" Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:41 pm Subject: Obsurdities ksheri3 Hi Group, What is this obsession with the concept of "KS's" students being misleas? Where is the IGNORANCE which this "subject line" eminates unto something "other". Back in 2005 I was working with an Oxford masters degree student that needed some trustworthy opinion concerning the esoteric field. I was specifically focusing on the application of "Shadows" and how it was their responsibility to obscure the light from it's path of origination. Are there any obscrations in any "OPINION"? toodles, colette #96480 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:56 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. ptaus1 Thanks Scott. Appreciate it. Best wishes --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear pt, > > Here's a bit from the audio (2007-01-09-bmp.3). I thought it a propos: > > Kh Sujin: "...If there is no understanding of any characteristic right now, it's impossible to understand dhaatu...Let's say that we don't know anything right now. #96481 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats ptaus1 Hi Sarah and Connie, I accidentally came upon an excerpt which seems related to the issue of prepared seats: "It is said that wherever a monk dwells during the Buddha's time, in the vicinity of the Buddha, he would always have ready a special seat for the Buddha because it is possible that the Buddha would pay him a special visit (DA.i.48). Sometimes the Buddha will send a ray of light from his Gandhakuti to encourage a monk engaged in meditation and, appearing before him in this ray of light, preach to him. Stanzas so preached are called obh_sag_th_ (SnA..i.16, 265)." http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/b/buddha.htm I'm not sure how much this answers the question since the quote mentions only monks, but I'd guess that at the time it was probably well known that the Buddha could drop in at any time anywhere through his psychic power, so I would certainly keep a seat prepared for him even if I wasn't a monk :) Just thought I'd share the quote as it might be relevant. Best wishes > >I also thought it was interesting that "when the Exalted One reached those Wanderers, on coming to them he sat down on a seat made ready." Was that prepared seat a fairly common thing, then and not just something 'our' bhikkhus did? > ... > S: The Buddha's vipaka, I believe. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > #96482 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:24 pm Subject: Re: Obsurdities scottduncan2 Dear colette, Glad to hear from you. c: "...Are there any obscrations in any 'OPINION'?" Scott: Yes! But then that's an opinion too! I hope all is well for you, colette. Later. Scott. #96483 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:46 pm Subject: Re: Ann's Questions 1. glenjohnann Dear Nina Thank you so much for transcribing those questions. It is very helpful to see it - and have time to consider it more. ann > Ann's Questions. > #96484 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Sarah! Sorry I haven't been around lately. I've been pulled away by the "unreal world" "out there." ha ha. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Rob Ep, > > --- On Thu, 5/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >>S:I referred to how it's not just a matter of having the helpful text on the table or even listening to the Buddha. It all comes back to the wise attention (yoniso manasikaara) at such times or reading or listening in order for there to be suta-maya pa~n~naa (understanding based on listening) and cinta-maya pa~n~naa (understanding based on considering) , leading to bhaavanaa-maya pa~n~naa(understand ing based on development) arise. > ... > R:> But I would assume that one is not in control of that either - that one cannot *pay* wise attention - it just arises for the citta of the moment. > ... > S: Exactly! There is either wise or unwise attention and it all depends on conditions "of the moment" as you put it. > ... > > >>S: Back to Ananda, .......Hence, there is, through that non-confusion, proof of his insight; or else there is, through the insight generated, due to an absence of confusion, at the time of hearing, proof of insight at a time subsequent thereto - likewise, through non-forgetfulness, proof of mindfulness. " > .... > R: >Who judges the non-confusion I wonder? Can't Ananda think he is unconfused and be subject to delusion/wrong view? > .... > S: Not once he became a sotapanna.... still many moments of ignorance, but now delusion with wrong view. It's the right understanding that judges and knows the confusion vs non-confusion, the wisdom vs the ignorance. Again, by condtions... Pnce there is the understanding of dhammas arising by conditions, no more doubt or confusion about them... Suddenly occurs to me - why would the process of deluded arising of samsara - eg, impermenent cittas arising in succession - give rise to panna? And how can the impermenanent cittas realize panna at all? I realize this takes place, but it seems strange. When you look at the whole process of change, perception, etc. as being based on delusion that set the wheel of illusion in motion in the first place and then keeps going subject to conditions [almost forever,] it doesn't really make sense that the citta-system can "wake up" at all. > ... > >>S: And a little later... > > "...the individual whose mind is distracted, even upon being spoken to when all other (conditions) have been satisfied, states "(Such) was not heard by me, please state it again". > > > > I'm sure the last comment is familiar to us all! > ... > R:> Very. Both giving and receiving. > .... > S: We certainly agree on this note! Yes; and it's fun when the ancient scriptures make such a contemporary comment, yet sad that it's been around so long... Best, Robert = = = = = = = = = = = #96485 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Rob Ep, > > Thanks for your kind comments. > > --- On Fri, 6/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >I think I am getting a clearer idea of what this view is, and at least the view itself is one that seems to be the essence of Buddhism: that every arising experience is a conditioned temporary one, and that it has no enduring essence or substantial nature. I can also understand the idea that "self" is composed of the false idea that some particular dhamma or sequence of dhammas is an enduring entity, which citta then identifies with, and this makes sense as well. > ... > S: Yes, and you've put it beautifully in your own words. > ... > R:>One big question for now, [possibly redundant of all my other questions... ] and I will snip all of the good comments that were below: If certain types of conditions lead to panna, and others do not, what are the types of conditions that lead to panna? > ... > S: It boils down to past and present panna as the condition for more panna! Hm...How does the panna get through in the first place? That may be one of those "questions to be avoided." > ... > R: Obviously you are saying that no particular activity sets conditions that lead to panna; yet there seems to be an idea that hearing the dhamma itself does create kusala conditions. > ... > S: There has to have been the hearing of particular sounds (seeing of particular visible objects), followed by the wise attention with panna. Only Buddhas do not need (in their last life) to have heard the Dhamma for such insight and enlightenment to occur. > > So, we have to hear about realities (dhammas) as anatta for there to be the wise consideration of them as such. Without a Buddha's teachings, no insight, no development of the Path. Okay. > .... > R:> Can you explain why a particular activity - listening to or considering the dhamma - does give rise to panna, but sitting and considering the nature of the arising dhammas in an undistracted setting would not increase the likelihood of seeing into the nature of arising dhammas? > ... > S: In the ultimate sense, the listening or considering are not 'particular activities', but particular kinds of cittas with panna. One person may read just a few words, carefully consider them and become enlightened. Another person, as you've stressed a few times, might memorise and translate the entire Patthaana, but somehow still take it all for 'theory', unrelated to practice and without any more understanding of dhammas as anatta. Okay. > > I think that as soon as we begin to differentiate between the different kinds of situation you suggest (sitting, non-distracted) as being more conducive, it indicates a lack of confidence in the power of panna and sati to arise anytime, any place. I guess it's the idea that there must be something to cause them to arise. If conditions create the arising, then what creates those conditions? You mentioned former arisings of panna in the past, but how does it break through in the first place? There must be moments of insight that come out of something. > If I'm distracted now by Jon calling out to me, what's the use of thinking that less distraction or sitting quietly would be more useful to the Path? It would just be attachment to such situations masquerading as some kind of wisdom, I think. It all comes back to the present moment. I guess I have the idea that if one is constantly whipped around dealing with this and that, there's not much space or moments to consider what is happening wisely or otherwise. If there is some space of undistraction, one can look more easily. > .... > >Are the conditions such that there is no skill involved, no increasing of discernment that makes panna develop? What is the nature of those kusala conditions, and what causes them to arise? > ... > S: No skill by anyone. Now, we're reflecting carefully. This is meditation or bhavana. It's occurring by conditions and is a condition for further panna to develop. So, the conditions are the careful attending and wise reflection, but not by any self. > > I appreciate the way you question and question the fine detail until satisfied with a particular point. Perhaps you can give another of your good summaries of what I (and others) have said back to this one again:-). Thank you Sarah; I'm not quite ready to summarize yet, but I will keep at it. This is a tough area to dig into, but a good one. I appreciate your support, though I may keep ignoring the doorway and banging on the wall. Best, Robert = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #96486 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:30 pm Subject: What is Evil? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is Mara: Transient, Painful, No-Self & a Ceasing State? At Savatthi. While seated, the Venerable Radha asked the Blessed One: Venerable Sir, one says: MÄra, MÄra!! What is this MÄra the evil one? Radha, form, feeling, perception, mental construction, and consciousness is MÄra, is a state of MÄra, is impermanent, is of an impermanent nature, is suffering, is of a painful nature, is no-self, is of an impersonal nature, is in a state of destruction, is in a state of vanishing, is an unstable state, is always in a state of momentary ceasing, vanishing right there & then... Radha, you should therefore leave behind desire, should leave behind lust, you should leave behind all desire and lust for whatever is a state of MÄra, for whatever is impermanent, for whatever is only impermanent appearance, for whatever is suffering, for whatever is of a painful nature, for whatever is no-self, for whatever is of a ownerless nature, for whatever is a state of destruction, for whatever is a state of vanishing, for whatever is in a state of arising, for whatever that is a state of cessation... And what, Radha, is a state of cessation? Form is a state of cessation. Feeling, Perception, Mental Constructions, and this Consciousness is also a state of continuous ceasing... Understanding this, Radha, the well instructed Noble Disciple experiences disgust towards form, disgust towards feeling, disgust towards perception, disgust towards mental construction, & disgust towards consciousness itself! Experiencing disgust, he becomes disillusioned! Through disillusion his mind is released. When it is released, one instantly knows: This mind is liberated, and one understands: Extinguished is birth, this Noble Life is all completed, done is what should be done, there is no state of being beyond this one... <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 23:24-34 III 199 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net What is Evil? #96487 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. nilovg Dear Azxita and Ann, Thanks for your refreshing reminders. I needed them today, wow, what a day. Op 11-mrt-2009, om 12:21 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > "we are never free of Abhidhamma. People who have never heard of it > are not free of a'dhamma; people who have heard but hate it are not > free of a'dhamma; people who love it but never follow it and vice > versa, are never free of it" ------ N: A neighbour went crazy and came to our place to commit suicide, he had knives in his hand. I called Lodewijk who was not yet dressed, and before our doorstep he started to slash his wrist. Lodewijk could just in time hold his arms but was not strong enough. Other neighbours called the police and someone else helped to take his two knives away. Lodewijk had blood all over but was not wounded, and on the floor before our apartment was a lot of blood. The neighbour was cuffed and taken to hospital and Lodewijk scrubbed the floor. This is a good lesson that anything can happen any time. We are never free of Abhidhamma. Nina. #96488 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. nilovg Daer Scott and pt, Op 12-mrt-2009, om 3:56 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > We don't know what will be out next thinking - kusala or akusala. > So why do we fear anything to arise because there are conditions > for it's arising anytime." ------ N: This is most helpful. No need to fear anything, it is all conditioned. We may be in terrible circumstances or about to die, but all such moments are conditioned. Nina. #96489 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:21 am Subject: Direct understanding. nilovg Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Van: Nina van Gorkom > Datum: 12 maart 2009 10:20:31 GMT+01:00 > Aan: Poranee Klinchan-Raftopoulos > Onderwerp: Antw.: Internet is useful. > > Dear Poranee, > Op 11-mrt-2009, om 19:19 heeft Poranee Klinchan-Raftopoulos het > volgende geschreven: > >> Q: How does intellectual understanding become direct understanding? >> Kh.S: No self, only Dhammas. >> > Poranee: >> I am not clear about the answer from Tarn Ajarn Sujin.I will think >> more about it. > ------ > N: When there is intellectual understanding we think about > realities. But this can condition later on direct awareness and > understanding of a characteristic that appears as only a dhamma. > Direct understanding is also just a dhamma and nobody can make it > arise. > > I heard on a recording: > characteristic of a dhamma. Thinking of anger is different from the > understanding of the characteristic of anger as a reality at that > very moment. We take anger as I or mine. Can anger be I or mine?> > > First there should be understanding of whatever appears as a > dhamma. Later on more details can be known, such as the > characteristics of dosa, lobha, etc. > Nina. > #96490 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Space (Sarah's notes 1) nilovg Dear Sarah, At last I reread your articles on space and now I find them clearer. You are very careful. You also refer to all the texts. I took note of Kh Sujin's explanation that unconditioned space is not a concept. I found her explanations clear. I received a text in Thai from Kh Kamphan, with quotes from Katavatthu commentary. Here I still have a problem. I looked up the English (The Debates Commentary) Ch 6, no 6: You mention also flying through space as a concept. But now I still find it a difficult subject. I was not interested at first since it does not help me to understand the present moment. But it still hinders when something is not clear. Does Kh Kamphan understand English? I can read his Thai but not type in Thai. Nina. Op 10-aug-2008, om 9:16 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > There is the concept of space which we use all the time as in > "flying through space" or the "space in our houses" and there is > also the concept of boundless or infinite space as the object of > the first aruupa jhaana (aakaasaana~ncaayatana). #96491 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:01 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. jonoabb Hi Phil Thanks for the additional comments. --------------------------------------------------- > What I said or meant was that there is a very important level at which it is to be appreciated in a way that is not about the penetrative understanding of dhammas. --------------------------------------------------- If the teachings are taken at the level of sila or samatha, without any understanding of dhammas/satipatthaana/dukkha/anatta, then there's nothing to distinguish the teachings as being those of a Buddha. The best that can be hoped from that kind of appreciation is rebirth in a heavenly plane for a finite period. However, this would have to be followed by rebirth in this or a lower plane again. --------------------------------------------------- For example, it is widely appreciated in Buddhist countries by lay followers in a way that is not about the penetrative understanding of dhammas. --------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure about the relevance of the views of lay followers in Buddhist countries, who may not have a particular interest in the actual teachings. We have the whole Tipitaka plus the writings of those who have studied the Tipitaka over the years. --------------------------------------------------- I think the Buddhist lay followers that you have come to know at the foundation are far more oriented to having an interesting in the penetrative understanding of dhammas than lay followers in general. As for lay followers in the Buddha's day, I don't know. But unless one is to reject lay Buddhism as it is practiced today on the whole (and I think that is often rejected here, and sometimes with good reason when one considers all the money involved in Buddhist lay practice today, all the corruptions) one cannot deny that this wonderful sutta is to be appreciated at a very important level without consideration of fleeting dhammas. In his series of talks on the sutta, Bhikkhu Bodhi certainly makes that clear, but that doesn't prove anything, I know. --------------------------------------------------- But would an appreciation of the sutta without any consideration of dhammas be an appreciation of the teachings of the Buddha? The aim of the teachings is to teach the development of right view, not the development of sila, etc accompanied by ever-increasing wrong view. And right view cannot be developed without considering momentary dhammas. I can't readily think of any sutta in which the Buddha teaches dana, sila or samatha without reference also to satipatthaana or momentary dhammas. As regards what you refer to as "lay Buddhism", I think this is not a distinction that was recognised by the Buddha. In the suttas there is frequent mention of the 4 classes of follower (lay and ordained, male and female) without distinction as to capability to understand the teachings. --------------------------------------------------- > p.s it seems there is a progression through the Mangala sutta, so that towards the end it is indeed all about deep understanding. I hardly ever reach the end when reflecting on the sutta, the end is not about where my understanding is at. --------------------------------------------------- I agree with your observation about the progressive nature of the stanzas of the sutta. However, the first stanza includes reference to association with the wise, and the rest of the sutta is laced with other references to an understanding of momentary dhammas, so I would say the whole sutta is about penetrative understanding. Jon #96492 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:32 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. abhidhammika Dear Jon, Phil, Sarah, Robert E, connie, James, Howard, Colette, Sukin, Nina, Robert A, and Robert K How are you? Jon wrote: "So kayanupassana-satipatthana may take many forms. And I'm not aware of anything in the texts that suggests any one form is to be preferred over the others." Suan replied: The reason you are not aware of anything in the texts seems to be that you do not read the Buddha's teachings in the Pali Nikaayas as widely as possible, as comprehensively as possible. And, Jon, did you mention in this message that you were reading the commentary on Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam? Now, Jon, another reason you are not aware of anything in the texts is that you do not seem to read carefully whatever bits you do read. The following Pali clause can be found in a paragraph in the commentary section on The Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension. "a.t.thatimsaaya kamma.t.thaanesu attano cittaruciyam kamma.t.thaanasankhaatam gocaram uggahetvaa" The above Pali clause explains why some people choose one meditation object over the others. The Buddha chose breathing as his meditation object. So do I. Jon also wrote: "We should not downplay the significance of the other sections of kaayanupassana, such as the modes of deportment, by taking the section on anapanasati as representative of the whole teaching on that particular foundation of mindfulness." Suan replied: Choosing of breathing as his meditation object did not prevent the Buddha from teaching other meditation objects in Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam and in other places in the Five Nikaayas. The same applied to me. Making of breathing my chosen meditation object did not prevent me from studying and trying out other meditation objects as well. In fact, I memorised some methods from other sections of this great Sutam as well as other parts of the Five Nikaayas. After all, I am a traditional teacher of Theravada. As such, I am an orthodox follower of the Buddha's Teachings in all the Five Nikaayas. I make sure that I can consult any Pali text, be they Suttas, or Vinaya texts or Seven Abhiddhamma Pi.taka texts or their commentaries or subcommentaries. And, I make sure that I learn the Buddha's instructions from those Pali texts and practice them as best I can. Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam is to be accepted as the manual of formal Theravada meditation methods. They are to be practiced as the Buddha intended us to practice. If some people are unable to follow the Buddha's instructions and examples in Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam and elsewhere in the Five Nikaayas that is fine. This is the weakness of those people, not the weakness of this great Suttam and other Suttas. There is no need to reduce the formal full strength of Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam to the level to suit the weakness of some people – for example, reduction by generalising, by psychologising. The Buddha's Suttas containing practice methods (pa.tipatti) such as moral principles, instructions on guarding of the sense doors and meditation procedures are what is known as Niitattha Suttas. A Niitattha Suttam is to be literally accepted and practiced as the Buddha taught. If the Buddha said in the Suttam, "Guard your eye doors", we must guard our eye doors by all means – even by resorting to not looking at or closing our eyes. Every Pali Pi.taka text is to be accepted as the Buddha originally taught. Nothing should be removed from the original. Nothing should be added to the original. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhilogy.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: Hi Suan I have a further comment on the sutta passage and your remarks on it. <> As you know, the answer to the question that is posed here ("And, Monks, how does a monk lives as a repeated body–observer in the body?") has 14 sections to it*. Thus the section dealing with anapanasati, which is the first of the 14, is only a part of the answer to the question, even though it is made clear in the commentary that a person may attain enlightenment on the basis of jhana having anapanasati as its object. So kayanupassana-satipatthana may take many forms. And I'm not aware of anything in the texts that suggests any one form is to be preferred over the others. <> We should not downplay the significance of the other sections of kaayanupassana, such as the modes of deportment, by taking the section on anapanasati as representative of the whole teaching on that particular foundation of mindfulness. Jon *The 14 sections are: Mindfulness of Breathing The Modes of Deportment The Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension The Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body The Reflection on the Modes of Materiality (Elements, Dhatu) Cemetery Contemplation 1 - 9 #96493 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] death of a friend upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - ??? (Computer still in disrepair) ??? Nina, I'm very sorry for your loss. There is much sadness to things. It will be wonderful when the peace of nibbana frees us all from it. With much metta, Howard #96494 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:58 pm Subject: Re: patience, blood, blood. gazita2002 hallo Nina and Lodewijk what an awful experience for you both. Our local newspaper which BTW is quite a bad newspaper, is full of events like this. an event such as this sure does test us and our claims to karuna, metta. I'm reminded of the sutta where the Buddha suggests we have metta for the person who is trying to saw off our very limbs. Imagine that! A quote from my little book: 'easy to do are the things that are bad and not beneficial to oneself, but very very difficult indeed, to do is that which is benefical and good; may all beings be happy, azita #96495 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. jonoabb Hi Nina Have just seen your message. What an unpleasant experience for you and Lodewijk. I once saw someone set himself alight. Leaves a nasty feeling. Good opportunity for refelection on the value of equanimity ... Jon #96496 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:59 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. gazita2002 hallo Phil, I'm rather puzzled as to why you seem to reject the deeper teacings of the suttas. I understand you to be saying that the Buddha taught on two levels is that right? assuming that I am right in thinking this, then I also assume you know theoretically there is a deep and very important meaning to the teachings. > --------------------------------------------------- > > What I said or meant was that there is a very important level at which it is to be appreciated in a way that is not about the penetrative understanding of dhammas. > For example, it is widely appreciated in Buddhist countries by lay followers in a way that is not about the penetrative understanding of dhammas. > --------------------------------------------------- > >Jon: I'm not sure about the relevance of the views of lay followers in Buddhist countries, who may not have a particular interest in the actual teachings. We have the whole Tipitaka plus the writings of those who have studied the Tipitaka over the years. azita; I tend to agree with Jon here re followers in Buddhist countries bec I have heard and seen some rather strange practices. > --------------------------------------------------- > > p.s it seems there is a progression through the Mangala sutta, so that towards the end it is indeed all about deep understanding. I hardly ever reach the end when reflecting on the sutta, the end is not about where my understanding is at. > azita: so why not read the end and see what 'you' understand from the reading:-) may all beings be happy azita #96497 From: "colette" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:10 am Subject: Re: Obsurdities ksheri3 Good Morning Scott, Thank you for taking a poke at my humor! I'm learning a great deal, at the moment, concerning TRANCE as I comparing it's levels to COGNITION and to the Mind-Only schools. I ran into a thought Milarepa sang: "It is important to have a free-from-hope-and-fear conviction regarding the unborn and the undying innate Dharmakaya of the intrinsic nature of mind. Knowing that all beings are inherently Buddhas, Whatever I do is the play of Dharmakaya; whoever I am with is it the tutelary deity; whereever I stay is a Buddhafield; Happy am I to forego outer supports and religious symbols" toodles, colette #96498 From: "colette" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. ksheri3 Good Morning Nina, Man, what a story. Must have been a Wild Awakening to have that as you open the front door. Things like that have happened to me several times AND THEY ARE EXTRAORDINARY MEDITATIONAL OBJECTS TO FOCUS ON. <...> Maybe this is a conceptual thing but your post to Azxita and Ann restated the thing that they were asking. While the Abhidharma may be one of the Three Jewels it cannot be somewhere without the minds that desire to conceptualize it. Which came first, the Abhidharma or the people? Please, follow me here, if we formulate life then the Abhidharma is formulated by ourselves, it is our construction. The Buddha may have given us the reflection of the Abhidharma but it too does not exist. Way down in the subconscious or un-conscious there must be something which predetermines our ability toward a free will. Volcanos erupt rock and earth that was previously exposed to the elements as the earth's crust but became subducted and transformed in lava as it traveled downward toward the center of the earth and then as it traveled back up to find an opening in the crust. Our own thoughts, which are conceptions, are transformed constantly and therefore really have no exact location where they can be said to be static or non-developing. This thought is contaminated (see "defilements") as it traverses the course of manifestation (we can associate a conveyor belt or assembly line as the procedure I speak of where the basic structure of the thought or conception is given "add-ons" and is THUS defiled. The Abhidharma too, undergoes gigantic changes as each individual exsposes themselves to the Abhidharma. E.J.Thomas wriktes in the Indian Historical Quarterly ("1940.06"), speaking of how the Lalitavistara mixes with the Sarvastivada, "This illustrates the extraordinarymisconceptions then prevailing, as well as the attitude of the Pali school, which sought to reconstruct the early history of Buddhism from Pali sources alone." This is an example of the distortions and perversions that originality must undergo as a price for it's existance. NAMA can certainly become RUPA but once RUPA is established then trying to make it into NAMA is a little difficult due to the inperfection and impurities that have been attached or added on. The Abhidharma cannot have anyone or anything nor can it be had by anyone or anything. It's just transiently "there" as an aid in our course through Samsara. Good to speak with you today. I hope you can retain some normality but they have raised the bar on you so your level of normalcy is probably now, forever, changed. <...> Good Day to ya! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: A neighbour went crazy and came to our place to commit suicide, he > had knives in his hand.<....> #96499 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:18 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. philofillet Hi Azita > I'm rather puzzled as to why you seem to reject the deeper teacings of the suttas. I understand you to be saying that the Buddha taught on two levels is that right? As I did with Jon, I'll stop you right there and add you to Jon and Scott to write to properly on this later. I certainly don't reject the deep teachings! In one thread some time ago I asked for leads to the suttas in which it is said that the Buddha addressed his listeners about aspects such as dana and sila (I forget the details) and only when the listeners mind was ready to receive the teachings "particular to the Buddhas" did he proceed even to the four noble truths! I'm not saying we should wait to make contact with the deep teachings, it is just my opinion that since the self (ego?) *will* demand satisfaction from Dhamma in this one lifetime no matter what we say about aeons and aeons, it is better that the mind find satisfaction in conventional aspects and not rush from satisfaction in the deep teachings, which it does, in my opinion. I know this is presumptious to say to someone like yourself who has been listening patiently to very similar teachings for several decades. I'll write again to you Jon and Scott at some point. I really didn't want to get into this again! I just want to post passages in Pali from CMA and be quiet otherwise!:) Metta, Phil p.s I enjoyed the post from your notebook the other day. It must have been wonderful to listen directly to Ven Dhammadaro. I love his voice (as you know I love yours too, remember? ;) Of course voices aren't the point, but we know that cittas do condition body intimation in the voice, so it can be relevant! #96500 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:20 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. philofillet Hi again typo: >>and not rush from satisfaction in the deep teachings, which it does, in my opinion. not rush for satisfaction. metta, phil #96501 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. philofillet Hi Nina Wow, very sorry to hear that you and Lodewijk had this terrible experience and of course sorry for the gentleman in question. I think the Netherlands is very advanced for dealing with mental illness so he'll get good treatment. Glad you had the Dhamma to help take this as equanimitously as possible. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Azxita and Ann, > Thanks for your refreshing reminders. I needed them today, wow, what > a day. #96502 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats epsteinrob Hi All. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: "...Sometimes the Buddha will send a ray of light from his Gandhakuti to encourage a monk engaged in meditation and, appearing before him in this ray of light, preach to him." Just thought I would misappropriate this quote to show that the Buddha would encourage a monk engaged in meditation, not urge him to 'cease and desist' because his activity was promoting the idea of a volitional self. Best, Robert - - - - - - - - - - #96503 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. glenjohnann Dear Nina and Lodewijk What a difficult and unpleasant experience for you both (and the neighbours - all of them). It really points out how we never know what will happen and there is no self to control anything - all by conditions, vipaka cittas and the cittas that follow. I can see that this has been a trying week for you. I am sorry for the loss of your friend, Khun Kulin - I remember her well from my first trip to India in 1975 and more recently at the Foundation. The lovely story you told about her and the translations of the commentaries into Thai is very inspiring. I liked that way that Sarah pointed out in one of her posts to you the value of reflecting on the Dhamma and appreciating the kusala deeds of the deceased and how this can be the highest form of respect at such times. Thinking of you Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Azxita and Ann, > Thanks for your refreshing reminders. I needed them today, wow, what > a day. > N: A neighbour went crazy and came to our place to commit suicide, he > had knives in his hand. #96504 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats kenhowardau Hi Robert, Good to see you back in action! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > Hi All. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" ptaus1@ wrote: > > "...Sometimes the Buddha will send a ray of light from his Gandhakuti to encourage a monk engaged in meditation and, appearing before him in this ray of light, preach to him." > > Just thought I would misappropriate this quote to show that the Buddha would encourage a monk engaged in meditation, not urge him to 'cease and desist' because his activity was promoting the idea of a volitional self. > ------------------- I'm sorry but that adds nothing to the discussion. We have already agreed that monks in the Buddha's day developed both samatha and vipassana. What we have not agreed on is how they did it. Did they concentrate on the movements of their feet while they walked? Did they sit on cushions and (as the Zen folk tell us) "just look?" Or did they do it by understanding the Dhamma as they went about their normal, everyday activities? Ken H #96505 From: "connie" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:51 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. nichiconn Dear Phil, because i'm still a member somewhere on paper, i get these notices: <> to me, that's humanism, but who cares? sorry you took offense at the monkey quote. maybe you'll like it better if i poke fun at myself, so i give you einstein the parrot, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnTT7u5U4Yo It's actually the same story, or the stories are the same animal anyway; at least Nichiren did say to "sit upright and contemplate the true nature of all phenomena". Otherwise, i guess no difference between what are normally called practices. Without following what you call the deep teachings, they stay shallow, however 'noble' we'd like to think we might be. Looking forward to the CMA corner. peace, connie #96506 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:20 pm Subject: Who is the Creator? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: No Agent or Actor exists! Only Impersonal Processes Unfolds! Question: Who is the Creator ??? Answer: Nobody is the Creator of anything!!! Q: What then is Creating ??? A: Ignorance and Craving is Creating!!! Q: What is Ignorance & Craving Creating ? A: Ignorance & Craving Creates Suffering!!! Question: Who Perceives ??? Answer: Nobody Perceives anything!!! Q: What then is Perceiving ??? A: The Perception process itself Perceives!!! Q: What do Perception Perceive ??? A: Form, sound, smell, taste, touch & thoughts!!! Question: Who Feels ??? Answer: Nobody Feels anything!!! Q: What then is Feeling ??? A: The process of Feeling itself feels!!! Q: What do Feeling feel ??? A: Feeling feels pleasure, pain & neutrality!!! Question: Who is the Knower ??? Answer: Nobody is the Knower of anything!!! Q: What then is Knowing ??? A: The state of Knowledge itself knows!!! Q: What is Knowledge Knowing ??? A: Knowledge knows: Such is Pain, cause of Pain, End of Pain, Way to End all Pain!!! There exist no static entities anywhere. Entities implying stability is just language conventions. All phenomena are dynamic processes enacted by selfless, ownerless, and coreless conditions. <...> ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY CREATOR! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Who or rather What! is the Creator? #96507 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, What a shocking experience and we're so glad that both of you are not hurt and that you and the other neighbours were also able to help. Hopefully, the poor man will get the caring attention he needs. Anatta indeed! Today I was reading in the paper about the trial of a man who used to live upstairs in our building. We didn't know him, but he was a senior executive for a Japanese company. Exactly a year ago, he killed his mother who was visiting him. There were 150 stab wounds and the body was discovered by one of our security guards on a routine patrol. I probably mentioned suddently seeing our entrance lobby on the TV news at the time. From the evidence, it seems he showed all sorts of schizophrenic and paranoid symptoms on the day in question which staff and friends had never seen evidence of before. The father said that the mother and son had always been very close too and that she'd been the one who'd taken all responsibility for bringing him up. Again, anything can happen.... Metta, Sarah --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: N: A neighbour went crazy and came to our place to commit suicide, he had knives in his hand. #96508 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (& Azita), --- On Wed, 11/3/09, szmicio wrote: >L: ...Sati is anatta, without control. No one can induce or direct sati. That's so big relief. Nothing to do, just fleeting dhammas here and now. ... S: Yes, as we've discussed before, this is how I see it too. I liked this quote from 'Survey' and thought of you when I read it in an extract Nina gave recently: "....There is no longer the world one used to cling to, the world outside, which is full of people and different things. There is no longer what one used to take for a particular person, for a thing, for self, all permanent and lasting. Whenever sati arises pa~n~naa can at that moment understand realities clearly, and then there is inward peace, because there are no people, beings or things. Whereas, when there are many people, many concepts in one’s life, there is no peace." Metta, Sarah =========== #96509 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience sarahprocter... Dear Ann (& Nina), Thanks for sharing your great anecdote (and good humour about it!) on the list. KS's one word 'anatta' response was exactly the same as her response to another 'episode' I had a few years ago. We'd had a lovely lunch as usual at K.Douangduen's house, sitting out on the terrace. K.Sujin had popped inside to have a massage in the room overlooking the terrace. The rest of us lingered and chatted until it was time for Jon & I to get our taxi to the airport. The taxi arrived and I decided to quickly step inside to say good-bye to KS. Just as I entered the room, one of the dogs gave me a sharp bite on my leg, making a little hole in my trousers. I gave rather a loud 'ouch' and everyone else jumped up out of concern. (Of course, the dog was just doing his 'guard' duty and I was a stranger entering the house to him.) Anyway, K.Sujin quietly sat up, smiled and as in your case, just said 'anatta'! A good reminder, as you said! Metta, Sarah --- On Wed, 11/3/09, glenjohnann wrote: >There was a drawing of breath and then a burst of giggles from the back seat and Acharn said quietly "anatta" -- a very good reminder! #96510 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] death of a friend nilovg Hi Howard, thanks. I was thinking of you and your computer, and it is so empty without you. Glad to hear from you. Nina. Op 12-mrt-2009, om 20:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > Hi, Nina - > > ??? (Computer still in disrepair) > > ??? Nina, I'm very sorry for your loss. There is much sadness to > things. It will be wonderful when the peace of nibbana frees us all > from it. > #96511 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. sarahprocter... Hi again Phil! --- On Tue, 10/3/09, Phil wrote: >> S: .....I don't think there's any conflict between understanding the dhammas at this deep level and leading our normal life, being considerate and attached to other people, going to work, living in an apartment or house and so on. Do you? .... P:> No, no problem there. I think this is a sensible way to approach the Dhamma. But I would like to be aware of the way the "Abhidhamma is not in the book, it is in daily life" attitude might encourage one to *try* to have vipassana in daily life, thus missing the boat. ... S: You have a good point, but I think it's the lurking 'Self' view, that is behind the *trying* no matter what the circumstances, don't you? ... >I know I used to, it was just these many, many, many flashes of trying to know nama from rupa, etc. ... S: I hear this from others too, like people talking about trying to be aware of visible object or something. Again, I think it's in spite of hearing or reading about dhammas arising and falling away now, rather than because of hearing such. For example, I just referred to the 'arising and falling away' of dhammas. Someone now might try to be aware of the arising and falling away of visible object. However, that would be due to ignorance and attachment for such awareness, rather than because of the Buddha's teaching on impermanent dhammas. Wouldn't you agree? ... >To me that is much more "trying to control cittas" than being mindful of a meditation object (which comes to the attention, and falls away again) while sitting, for one example. .... S: I think in either case there can be a subtle or not-so-subtle *trying to control cittas* or *trying to have certain results*, such as a particular object appear, even if it's a *whatever* object. Lots of cheating dhammas along the way! ... >Anyways, nice touching bases with you, I'll be back at some point, I'm sure, for another visit, maybe the CMA. ... S: Whatever, whenever, anatta! Jon's going off to Fiji in a few days and every day I change my mind about whether I'm going or not as well! If I don't go, I'll have a chance to transcribe parts of a great old tape on 'Seclusion' in which KS refers to some of her more personal experience. At one point Phra D. is questioning her and saying something along the lines of 'if you hadn't spent 10 years going on retreats in seclusion, you might not have got the understanding you have today...'. Anyway, read along for the answers if I don't go on retreat to Fiji:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #96512 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. nilovg Dear Ann, Azita, Phil, Sarah, Jon and Colette, Thank you all for your kind words and useful reminders. Sometimes we are not ready to accept: it is just anattaa. Op 13-mrt-2009, om 4:49 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > What a difficult and unpleasant experience for you both (and the > neighbours - all of them). It really points out how we never know > what will happen and there is no self to control anything - all by > conditions, vipaka cittas and the cittas that follow. --------- N: And this was not all. An hour later Lodewijk had to phone the doctor about his skin cancer test, and it was positive. That means some cutting away, but the doctor is good and skin cancer is easily treated. Not much worry, but it all came together so closely. But as you say, we never know. I cannot write much today, going to Amsterdam for a lecture about my late father. Nina. #96513 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- On Fri, 13/3/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Sometimes we are not ready to accept: it is just anattaa. ... S: I'm sure we all know what you mean! I remember at the time that the dog bit me sharply and KS just said 'anattaa', I wondered at first if she realised how painful it was and was too full of self-pity and all sorts of worldly concerns for a while to really appreciate the reminder. However, the truth does filter through, 'down to the bones'. Later we reflect with more understanding and detachment. 'Don't cling', she'd say. We think, how strange at first, there's no clinging to an unpleasant experience. However, there's clinging to the sorry story, not able to let it go, when really it is all a dream now, gone completely. ... Op 13-mrt-2009, om 4:49 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: >N: And this was not all. An hour later Lodewijk had to phone the doctor about his skin cancer test, and it was positive. That means some cutting away, but the doctor is good and skin cancer is easily treated. Not much worry, but it all came together so closely. But as you say, we never know. .... S: Yes, unfortunate timing, but who can time such conditions? [Jon's very used to the 'cutting away' and skin biopsy routine too - he has to have very regular visits to a skin doctor for this and has done for years, so he understands and sympathises.] ... >I cannot write much today, going to Amsterdam for a lecture about my late father. ... S: I hope you enjoy the break and trip! Best wishes for Lodewijk. I hope he also has some rest on the excursion. Metta, Sarah ========== #96514 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:35 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Threes (54-56) scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing from: #96284 Threes (51-53) (cy: #96319, #96377: CSCD Tii.ni kosallaani â€" aayakosalla.m, apaayakosalla.m, upaayakosalla.m. Walshe DN 33.1.10(54) 'Three skills: in going forward, *1054 in going down, in means to progress (aaya-kosalla'm, apaaya-kosalla'm, upaaya-kosalla'm). Olds [3.54] Three attributes of the skilled: skill at arriving, skill at departing, skill in knowhow RD's [3.54] Three proficiencies, to wit, proficiency as to progress, regress, and the means of success. *walshe: 1054 Note the play on words here: three derivatives of the root i 'to go'. Aaya can also, in more mundane contexts, mean 'money-making' (as absurdly suggested for this passage in PED!). Apaaya generally refers to 'states of woe' (evil rebirths), while upaaya comes to mean 'skilful device', and as such is much used of the Bodhisattva in the Mahaayaana tradition. **olds: [3.54] (kosallaani: aaya-, apaaya-, upaaya-) Walshe: skills: going forward, going down, in means to progress; Rhys Davids: proficiencies: as to progress, regress, means of success The real difference in interpretation here is with apaaya. Both Rhys Davids and Walshe hear as associated with the Apaya realm. Neither seem to hear a reverberation to skill in entry and exit from the jhanas which is surprising. Here is another case where it would be . . . um. . . skillful to keep in mind that the Dhamma must always be made to be helpful to those at the beginning, in the middle, and at the end, which would dictate a more generic interpretation: whatever aaya (aa=to, ya=whatever; PED has aa + ya=i=go, and also aya=income, inlet) is, then ap-aaya (apa=ap=from) is it's reverse. ***rd: 3.54Ayo, apaayo, upaayo; derivatives from i, to go. The second more usually covers all evil rebirth. CSCD Tayo madaa â€" aarogyamado, yobbanamado, jiivitamado. Walshe DN 33.1.10(55) 'Three intoxications: with health, with youth, with life (aarogya-mado, yobbana-mado, jiivita-mado). Olds [3.55] Three forms of madness: The madness of health, the madness of youth, the madness of life. RD's [3.55] Three intoxications, to wit, the pride of health, the ride of youth, the pride of life. **olds: [3.55] (madaa: aarogya-, yobbana-, jaavita-): PED, Walshe, and Rhys Davids all use intoxications, which is a better sounding word here and which conveys the meaning better than "madness." I used madness because it shows the root better. Elsewhere these three are called forms of pride (maana) CSCD Tii.ni aadhipateyyaani â€" attaadhipateyya.m, lokaadhipateyya.m, dhammaadhipateyya.m. Walshe DN 33.1.10(56) 'Three predominant influence: oneself, the world, the Dhamma (attaadhipateyya'm, lokaadhipateyya'm, dhammaadhipateyya'm). Olds [3.56] Three controllers: self-control, peer-pressure, the influence of The Word RD's [3.56] Three dominant influences [on effort]: to wit, the influence of self-[criticism], the influence of the community, the influence of spiritual things. **olds: [3.56] (aadhipateyyaani: Attaadhipateyya.m, lokaadhipateyya.m, dhammaadhipateyya.m) PED: AAdhipacca (and AAdipateyya): [from adhi + pati + ya "being overlord"] supreme rule lordship, sovereignty, power; and adhipati: ruler, master, ruling over, governing, predominant, ruled or governed (atta- autonomous, loka- heteronomous, influenced by society) Sincerely, Scott, connie, Nina. #96515 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: patience philofillet Hi Sarah, I like this story, and Ann's. >>Just as I entered the room, one of the dogs gave me a sharp bite on my leg, making a little hole in my trousers. I gave rather a loud 'ouch' and everyone else jumped up out of concern. (Of course, the dog was just doing his 'guard' duty and I was a stranger entering the house to him.) Anyway, K.Sujin quietly sat up, smiled and as in your case, just said 'anatta'! This seems like a wise and sensible approach to such vipaka. But what if *you* bit the dog? Would she still say that? I wonder.... ;) (Silly hypothesis, but my point is that a difference response is in order when it is our own wrong deeds, as laid out in MN 61.) Metta, Phil p.s now I have you, Azita, Jon and Scott to write back to! I don't know when it will be, but it will probably concede the point to you all. You folks have a clear and consistent approach to Dhamma that is to be admired in a sense even if it is not shared. #96516 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:52 am Subject: Re: patience scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Regarding: P: "This seems like a wise and sensible approach to such vipaka. But what if *you* bit the dog? Would she still say that? I wonder.... ;) (Silly hypothesis, but my point is that a difference response is in order when it is our own wrong deeds, as laid out in MN 61.)" Scott: I think that any response occurs only due to conditions. In the above we read of 'approaches' and 'different responses' as if there is someone taking an approach or responding. This is not consonant with anatta. Even were she to have bitten the dog, it is the same. Anatta. Only dhammas. No she and no dog. Only dosa. What dhammas arise and fall away when one is acting on the idea that one has to or ought to act a certain way in response to any given situation? Unless the dhammas that compose the 'wise and sensible' appearing 'approach' one cannot say it is wise. Sincerely, Scott. #96517 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:58 am Subject: Re: patience scottduncan2 Dear Phil, "...Unless the dhammas that compose the 'wise and sensible' appearing 'approach' *are known* one cannot say it is wise." Sincerely, Scott. #96518 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. glenjohnann Dear Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >Sometimes we are not ready to accept: it is just anattaa. A: I know that following a very difficult experience it can take a long time to consider it as "anatta". The thinking about how horrible and shocking the experience was and the unpleasant memory of it and fear and anxiety continue to arise over and over again. At times there can be resistance to thinking / hearing about it in Dhamma terms. All conditioned by so many aeons of ignorance and self-view - both the horrible experience and what follows. It is natural to find it difficult to accept these things as just "anatta", and when there are conditions it will be natural to condider with some level of understanding that all of it was / is anatta. These shocking experiences do seem to test our patience with understanding of the Dhamma. > N: And this was not all. An hour later Lodewijk had to phone the > doctor about his skin cancer test, and it was positive. That means > some cutting away, but the doctor is good and skin cancer is easily treated. Not much worry, but it all came together so closely. But as you say, we never know. A: Sorry to hear re the skin cancer, and the news following so closely after the morninng's events. I have had to deal with skin cancer episodes a number of times. Please tell Lodewijk I sympathise. > I cannot write much today, going to Amsterdam for a lecture about my late father. A: Hope that you have both had a good day - and break from recent events! How nice to be able to hear a lecture about your father! Ann #96519 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:18 pm Subject: Ignored Atta (The Self) teachings of the Buddha. The heresy of No Self truth_aerator Hello all, There are plenty of sutta quotes where the Buddha has stated clearly that atta does exist. There is even a whole section in Dhammapada called Attavagga. Dhammapada Attavagga 165: "Attana hi katam papam, attana samkilissati. " Attana = atta (self, soul) in instrumental sg. By Atta the evil is done, by atta one becomes soiled/impure. Not only atta exists, it is something that can do (kata) and become soiled/impure samkilissati! 160: Atta hi attano natho, ko hi natho paro siya. Attana hi sudantena, natham labhati dullabham.. 160. self truly is the protector of self; who else could the protector be? With self well tamed, self gains protection that is hard to gain. Again, the Atta can protect and be protected. Atta can be tamed and gain protection from evil states that is hard to gain. What is this Atta? In Sabba sutta, the Buddha has called the 12 ayatanas to be Anatta – is not Self. Thus that atta in Attavagga CANNOT BE conventional 5 aggregate (or 12 ayatana) thing which is anatta! That would be a contradiction if in this sutta you'd say that 12 ayatanas are not self, and then in another sutta "The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All." - since these are Anatta, these cannot be the Atta mentioned in Dhp Attavagga 160 "Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html Note: Just because something is indescribable, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The Buddha here did not say that there isn't anything outside of 12 ayatanas. There is at least one `thing' , Nibbana. What is "it lies beyond range" ? : ) In SN 4.400 (10. Anandasuttam) the Buddha has rejected the Natthattha (there is no Self) and any speculation about Atta, and rather taught Anatta (as opposed to natthatta). In MN#2 it is called a fetter of views to speculate (about unspeculatable) atta like "there is no self for me" "natthi me atta'ti" MN1.8 Buddha has called natthatta (there is no self) to be the belief of Nihilists, Ucchedavadins – AND REJECTED IT. Buddha wasn't just saying in a manner that Malunkaputta would understand. There is absolutely no pali sutta reference where the Buddha says that Atta does not exist. The word is mentioned 5 times, and only in one sutta where the Buddha has rejected it. Anatta is a typical indian teaching like neti neti "not this, not that" which doesn't deny atta, it merely shows what atta is not. It is a logical fallacy to believe that if ABCD is not X, thus there is no X. In countless teachings about aggregates being not self, the Buddha has never stated that Atta doesn't exist. Never. Example: Rupam, bhikkhave, anatta... Vedana anatta… sanna anatta… sankhara anatta… vinnanam anatta. Yadanatta tam `netam mama, nesohamasmi, na meso atta'ti evametam yathabhutam sammappannaya daṭṭhabbam. - 4. Yadaniccasuttam It says that 5 aggregates are anatta and should be seen as "That is not mine, that I am not, that is not my Self" (and what is the Self on which the above is rejected?) If 5 aggregates are [correctly] rejected as Atta, then what Atta means in the Dhp verses? Obviously it cannot be the 5 Khandas, which are Anatta. 165: "Attana hi katam papam, attana samkilissati. " By Atta the evil is done, by atta one becomes soiled/impure. 160: Atta hi attano natho, ko hi natho paro siya. Attana hi sudantena, natham labhati dullabham.. 160. self truly is the protector of self; who else could the protector be? With self well tamed, self gains protection that is hard to gain. How to reconcile the "Attana hi katam papam "By Atta evil gets done" and "Sabbe Dhamma Anatta" All things* are not-self ? *note: All things refer to 12 ayatanas. Nothing is said about non-existence of something different, or separate from Sabba that. Either somebody was careless and was mixing words and concepts, which I don't believe was the case. Or we have a long forgotten teaching where Atta is ultimately independent of Sabba (The All, 12 ayatanas) which is what does good or evil (through theclouds of avijja). Please don't tell me that when Buddha was saying X he meant not-x. In MN139 he said "no over riding of popular usage". Please tell me who in Buddha's time meant "there is no self" when saying self (atta)? With metta, Alex #96520 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:45 pm Subject: There IS atta that does truth_aerator Hello all, Dhp 165: "Attana hi katam papam, attana samkilissati. " By Atta the evil is done, by Atta one becomes soiled/impure. AN 3.337: There is attakaro "self doing" <<"a certain brahmin approached the Blessed One exchanged friendly greetings, sat on a side and said: Good Gotama I am of this view and say: 'Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' Brahmin, I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone by himself, approaching and receding say 'Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others?' Brahmin, is there an occasion for making effort? Yes, good one. Brahmin, when there is an occasion for making effort, when there is a sentient being making effort, this is the being doing and the otherness... when there is a going forth... a going forward... firmness... uprightness... endurance...a sentient being enduring, this is a being doing and the otherness. Brahmin, I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone by himself, approaching and receding say 'Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others?' Good Gotama, I understand....">> Before one jumps to hasty conclusion that that Atta is merely conventional 5 aggregate atta, please don't forget: Dhp279: ''Sabbe dhamma anattati - All things (Sabbe) are not-Self. Thus the Attana in Dhp:165 is NOT sabba dhamma anatta. With metta, Alex #96521 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats epsteinrob Hi Ken. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > Good to see you back in action! > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" > wrote: > > > > Hi All. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" ptaus1@ wrote: > > > > "...Sometimes the Buddha will send a ray of light from his Gandhakuti > to encourage a monk engaged in meditation and, appearing before him in > this ray of light, preach to him." > > > > Just thought I would misappropriate this quote to show that the Buddha > would encourage a monk engaged in meditation, not urge him to 'cease and > desist' because his activity was promoting the idea of a volitional > self. > > > ------------------- > > I'm sorry but that adds nothing to the discussion. We have already > agreed that monks in the Buddha's day developed both samatha and > vipassana. What we have not agreed on is how they did it. > > Did they concentrate on the movements of their feet while they walked? > Did they sit on cushions and (as the Zen folk tell us) "just look?" > > Or did they do it by understanding the Dhamma as they went about their > normal, everyday activities? I think it is fair to say that the Buddha's own words in the Anapanasati sutta give more than a clue to *one* way that they went about developing sati, and that is through sitting meditation, with the extensive meticulous instructions that the Buddha gave. He gave similar talks in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta and many others, so we actually don't have to guess or squint to find the answer. I believe that the Buddha taught both development of sati through anapanasati, through attention to the foundations of mindfulness, through wise attention to his teachings and the company of good spiritual friends, through development of intellectual understanding so that one would understand what the path consisted of; through following the 8-fold Noble path in everyday life in order to develop kusala qualities and a kusula lifestyle, and also the development of sati in everyday life and in all activities, in all physical conditions and in all physical positions, which he also spoke of at length. He spoke of all these things and it is fair to say that he approved of all of them, and taught extensively about them. There is no reason to exclude any of these practices from the available palette of the path. I believe that if Buddha bothered to give extensive talks about something, he probably intended that his students listen to what he was saying and take it to heart, not decide that he meant something else or should discard the parts that didn't fit with their personal philosophy. It is an inclusive list of things that foster the path, not exclusive of anything which he approved and promoted. The Buddha was also amazingly stern and clear about things that he did *not* approve of and he repeatedly warned monks and householders alike not to do the things that would lead to akusala results or would create negative kammas or rebirths. The list of such things is also extensive and detailed. Weirdly enough, sitting meditation never showed up on the list of things to avoid! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #96522 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. epsteinrob Hi Sarah and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Nina, > > --- On Fri, 13/3/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >Sometimes we > are not ready to accept: it is just anattaa. Just wanted to say that I am also sorry that you had to experience this. On the other hand you make a good point in showing the conflict between our clinging to the things and concepts of life versus the teaching of anicca and anatta. > ... > S: I'm sure we all know what you mean! I remember at the time that the dog bit me sharply and KS just said 'anattaa', I wondered at first if she realised how painful it was and was too full of self-pity and all sorts of worldly concerns for a while to really appreciate the reminder. However, the truth does filter through, 'down to the bones'. Later we reflect with more understanding and detachment. > > 'Don't cling', she'd say. We think, how strange at first, there's no clinging to an unpleasant experience. However, there's clinging to the sorry story, not able to let it go, when really it is all a dream now, gone completely. I think it's a great point that aversion is really a form of attachment - attachment to what we hold precious or pleasant, including survival, and then rebelling when it is disrupted or threatened. Tough lessons. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #96523 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:20 pm Subject: my personal copy of KS's Survey epsteinrob Dear Sarah, Nina and All: Just wanted to thank you, as I have just received the copy of KS's Survey which you arranged to have sent to me. It is a beautiful volume and not at all overly large, but a fine quality book with very nice paper. See, I am noticing the little things in the moment again.... :-))) I put it on the little table in the livingroom as a test, on top of the analysis of the Patthana and some other Buddhist books and so far my wife hasn't said anything, which means she is too busy or else likes the way it looks. It is probably the latter as it is very attractive. I look forward to reading the Survey at the pace that is possible around here - I am happy to have it. Who knows? Over time I may actually learn something, although I am fairly hard-headed and attached to my views. Once again, much thanks for such a pretty and useful book on the teachings. And thanks to your friend who brought it to the States. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #96524 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:52 pm Subject: Re: patience philofillet Hi Scott > "...Unless the dhammas that compose the 'wise and sensible' appearing 'approach' *are known* one cannot say it is wise." Right you are, that must be true. Though based on my favourite sutta (which I should study in more detail to make sure I'm not abusing it) I think that one can dare make surmises from behaviour - that "wisdom shines forth in behaviour" sutta . (Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti - The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.) (AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta) You have posted commentarial passages from this sutta before, but predictably I ignored them! (sorry, that is an embarassing confession.) At some point let's look at it together! :) (Not now.) And "approach" was the wrong word, I should have used "response." It's response to vipaka that is the key. I use the word "approach" too much, I know. There has to be a self-interest at work behind an "approach." Well, I have no problem with a self-interest at work, considering the level of defilements I'm working with. Gross, man, totally gross! Metta, Phil p.s back to you on the Mangala later as well. Some day we will discuss properly. I can feel it coming! #96525 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. ptaus1 Dear Nina, I'm glad to hear you are all right. If it's not safe where you live now, come to Australia. It's very safe here, and also close to Thailand as a bonus. Best wishes pt #96526 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:33 am Subject: Why the Boy was Buddhist! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Really Deep Truths can sometimes be told by a Wise Junior: A pious Sri Lankan Boy once stated it stout, steady & straight: I am a Buddhist, not merely because my parents are Buddhists, but out of assured conviction! After coming to an understanding of the truth of the Noble Triple Gem , I decided to be a Buddhist...s Whenever here a religious, private, social or national event starts, the blessings of the Triple Gem are invoked. But what does taking refuge in the Triple Gem really mean? We must really understand this! Taking refuge in the Buddha means seeking and understanding Nibbana (Nirvana). Man's freedom, or the road, which leads to Nibbana, is closed from time to time. The Noble Person, who finds this closed road and reveals it to the world is always the Buddha ! The Dhamma , which we take refuge in, is the path to Nibbana , preached by the Buddha . There are many eminent persons, who went along that path and understood Nibbana . They also teach us to go along this correct path. Those eminent persons are called the Maha Sangha . However, the Buddha is not an automatic rescuer. We cannot get the freedom we are seeking by just praying to the Buddha . Most Buddhists offer flowers to the Buddha statues. They hold religious festivals. But Buddhists do not do those things to satisfy the Buddha . They do it as a way to Nibbana for all living beings. Many offer flowers and go to temples to prove that they are practicing Buddhists. But if we observe the precepts & the religious teachings and gain a good understanding of the Dhamma , it will help us to become good Buddhists and win a pleasurable and happy future. However, we can seek & gain the truth of the Dhamma , only if we live according with it. Seeking the Dhamma is seeking the Buddha . So, I observe Buddhism by taking refuge in the Noble Triple Gem … Dulani Dananga Kiriella, Rajasinghe Central College School, Grade 10, Ruwanwella, Sri Lanka. Sadhu – Quite well spoken IMHO - …!!! Image at the Kelaniya Temple close to Colombo, Sri Lanka. <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Why the Boy was Buddhist! #96527 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:53 am Subject: Re: Reminder / "the letter" glenjohnann Dear Sarah (and Jon) Sukin told me just before I left Bangkok that you had once again posted J's 1976 letter - and I have spent many hours reading posts from February looking for it! Just found it and appreciate seeing it again. Obviously I must have given Sarah a copy when I received it and we talked about it - and I must have the original here somewhere. It has been years since I have seen it, though, and found it every bit as valuable now as when I first read it. The Dhamma stands the test of time and so does the letter! Happy to say that as the years have gone by, the contents of the letter re decisions, worry and uncertainty surounding them being akusala, the "decisions" being mere moments of thinking, accumulations - all have come to mind from time to time, usually with some recollection of the letter. So, thank you for posting it. Was indeed lovely to see you in Bangkok and again share discussions together with the others. Always valuable. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > >> It reminds me of a letter which has done the rounds before, sent by Jon to Ann in 1976 which Ann kindly shared with me at the time: > #96528 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. christine_fo... Hello Nina and Lodewijk, I am so sorry you had such an unpleasant experience, but how wonderful that the man chose you and Lodewijk to approach. He could have locked himself in the bathroom and completed the task with no-one knowing until much later. How wonderful that Lodewijk was able to delay the deed long enough until help could come. Such suffering for the poor man, almost helpless under its weight, and only able to think of 'ending it'. But he came to you. You have done a wonderful thing. I am presently working with clients suffering from anxiety and depression - and know the great suffering in their lives. metta and respect, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Azxita and Ann, > Thanks for your refreshing reminders. I needed them today, wow, what > a day. #96529 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:42 am Subject: Re: patience, blood, blood. hantun1 Dear Nina and Lodewijk, I was not reading DSG mails for quite some time, and only just now, I saw the messages about your unfortunate experience with the neighbour trying to commit suicide at your doorstep, and the positive skin cancer test for Lodewijk. I am worried about the skin cancer. I pray for Lodewijk and I am sure the doctor will be able to cure him completely. with metta and deepest respect, Han #96530 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. nilovg Dear Ann, Op 13-mrt-2009, om 17:29 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > The thinking about how horrible and shocking the experience was and > the unpleasant memory of it and fear and anxiety continue to arise > over and over again. At times there can be resistance to thinking / > hearing about it in Dhamma terms. ----- N: Exactly. I tell Lodewijk: I am thinking of nimittas. But we cannot not think, also this is anatta, and good to know. Otherwise we will force ourselves not to think. Nina. #96531 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:06 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. jonoabb Hi Scott > Scott: In the sutta, the phrase 'Not to associate with the foolish, but to associate with the wise' is not to be misunderstood. A look at the Paa.li shows why. We have: 'Asevanaa baalaana.m pa.n.ditaana~nca sevanaa.' The 'wise' is 'pa.n.dita' and this is synonymous with the adjectival form of pa~n~naa; PTS PED: > > "Pa~n~na ( -- pa~n~na) (adj.) [the adj. form of pa~n~naa] of wisdom, en- dowed with knowledge or insight, possessed of the highest cognition ... By itself (i. e. not in cpd.) only at Dh 208 (=lokiyalokuttara -- pa~n~naaya sampanna ... " > > Scott: Associating with the wise can only refer to pa~n~naa. --------------------------------------------- Thanks for making this point. It is perhaps easy to think of the reference to association with a good friend/wise person as being to a person who has good sila or much metta and compassion etc, but it's really the person's understanding of the teachings that is being pointed to, and this because that is the greatest benefit that can be gained in one's life. --------------------------------------------- Baalaa is 'Baala 1 (adj.) ... its orig. meaning is 'young, unable to speak' ... lacking in reason, devoid of the power to think & act right. In the latter sense sometimes coupled with andha (spiritually blind), as andhabaala stupid & ignorant, mentally dull ..." > > Clearly, this refers to ignorance imbuing citta with it's flavour. The wise is citta with pa~n~naa, the foolish is citta with avijja. This can only refer to the necessity of the development of pa~n~naa. I don't think there is any other important level to consider. How is the wise known? How is the foolish known? --------------------------------------------- Yes, it needs a certain level of wisdom to appreciate wisdom of a higher level in another. And of course it also depends on the skill of the latter in explaining the teachings in a way that can be understood. Jon #96532 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:09 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. jonoabb Hi Suan > Now, Jon, another reason you are not aware > of anything in the texts is that you do not seem to read carefully > whatever bits you do read. > > The following Pali clause can be found in a paragraph > in the commentary section on The Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension. > > "a.t.thatimsaaya kamma.t.thaanesu attano cittaruciyam > kamma.t.thaanasankhaatam gocaram uggahetvaa" For the benefit of those of us (including myself) who do not understand Pali, would you mind giving a translation (and a more specific reference too)? Thanks. > The above Pali clause explains why some people choose > one meditation object over the others. Subject to the translation of the Pali passage when received, I get the impression that you are addressing a different question to the one that I asked. I say this because while I'm aware of references in the texts to choosing a meditation object in the context of samatha bhavana, I'm aware of no such references in the context of vipassana bhavana/satipatthaana. Can you point to any? > The Buddha chose breathing as his meditation object. So do I. I believe the commentaries explain that all Buddha's attain enlightenment on the basis of jhana with breath as the kammatthaana. So this is the path for those of omniscient knowledge, and also for the great disciples. However, the question we are discussing is whether in the Satipatthaana Sutta or its commentary there is any special emphasis given to attainment in that manner for followers of the teachings in general (the likes of you and me). If there is, I've not noticed it. > The Buddha's Suttas containing practice methods (pa.tipatti) such as > moral principles, instructions on guarding of the sense doors and > meditation procedures are what is known as Niitattha Suttas. Thanks for this piece of information. The term "niitattha" is new to me. Would you mind explaining what it means in this context? Thanks. > A Niitattha Suttam is to be literally accepted and practiced > as the Buddha taught. If the Buddha said in the Suttam, > "Guard your eye doors", we must guard our eye doors > by all means – even by resorting to not looking at or closing our eyes. I'd be interested to see the textual basis for the idea that references in the suttas to guarding the eye-door are to be taken as meaning not looking or closing one's eyes. Jon #96533 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] my personal copy of KS's Survey nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Thank you for your kind concern. As to Survey, what about this: you could read one page, I would say after the Intro which gives all the sources, and then utter one remark or question maybe. You are bound to have questions and it is not too time consuming if we keep it one little bit by one little bit. What about it? Nina. Op 13-mrt-2009, om 22:20 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > I look forward to reading the Survey at the pace that is possible > around here - I am happy to have it. Who knows? Over time I may > actually learn something, although I am fairly hard-headed and > attached to my views. #96534 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder / "the letter" sarahprocter... Dear Ann, So lovely to read your letters recently too, full of helpful and gentle reflections! I do think that when we share Dhamma reminders and letters, it's a condition for there to be more reflection on the contents, as it was in the case of the old one you referred to! As you say, the dhamma reminders are timeless. Metta Sarah Btw, as I'm writing to you, thanks for your off-list note too and so glad you had such a great trip to Thailand and our friends to India. I'm probably not going to Fiji, so will look forward to selecting a few extracts for Phil & all. We just got that tape repaired and so I'm checking it. If you feel up to some transcribing, why not select a few passages from the KK, Jan 2007 - so much great material there. Anything that stands out to you will be of great interest to many of us. I've really enjoyed the extracts Scott has been transcribing recently too. --- On Sat, 14/3/09, glenjohnann wrote: >Sukin told me just before I left Bangkok that you had once again posted J's 1976 letter - #96535 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. nilovg Dear pt, But when it is time for kamma to produce unpleasant result, we are not safe anywhere: not in the sky, not in the water, nowhere. But we can always be safe with pa~n~naa. I say it, but to apply it is another matter. If, I say if, pa~n~naa is more developed and by insight the ownership of kamma has been penetrated, it means that we shall have more endurance to accept any kind of vipaaka. But before we are that far, it takes time. Aeons of ignorance have been accumulated, as Scott just reminded us. Nina. Op 14-mrt-2009, om 3:37 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina, I'm glad to hear you are all right. If it's not safe > where you live now, come to Australia. It's very safe here, and > also close to Thailand as a bonus. #96536 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience, blood, blood. nilovg Dear Han, So happy our experience was an occasion for you to read dsg. so it has served this good thing anyway. Thank you for your good wishes, Nina. Op 14-mrt-2009, om 9:42 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I was not reading DSG mails for quite some time, and only just now, > I saw the messages about your unfortunate experience with the > neighbour #96537 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. nilovg Dear Christine, Thank you four your concern. It is helpful if you tell us more about your work, it is dhamma in daily life. Nina. Op 14-mrt-2009, om 8:38 heeft Christine Forsyth het volgende geschreven: > You have done a wonderful thing. I am presently working with > clients suffering from anxiety and depression - and know the great > suffering in their lives. #96538 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 13-mrt-2009, om 12:08 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Yes, unfortunate timing, but who can time such conditions? [Jon's > very used to the 'cutting away' and skin biopsy routine too - he > has to have very regular visits to a skin doctor for this and has > done for years, so he understands and sympathises.] ------ N: Oh, that reassures me. I am glad you tell me. -------- > ... > >I cannot write much today, going to Amsterdam for a lecture about my > late father. > ... > S: I hope you enjoy the break and trip! > > Best wishes for Lodewijk. I hope he also has some rest on the > excursion. -------- N: We were glad to be away for a day, and the lecture was very good. We could contribute with some memories about my father. Thoughts are very variable. When the neighbour was shouting and Lodewijk holding him and when the policemen (six of them) came so soon, I looked at the neighbour and had karu.na, wished to quiet him down, but later on, there were such thoughts of: how could he do this to us helpless oldies. Uncontrollable, also anatta. True, at first such a reminder seems harsh, but later on we appreciate. Even as 'Just like now' in the case of Charupan. and also, it makes a difference when we read the reminder or we hear her voice full of kindness. Nina. #96539 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. sarahprocter... Hi Chris, (Ann & anyone*), --- On Sat, 14/3/09, Christine Forsyth wrote: >Such suffering for the poor man, almost helpless under its weight, and only able to think of 'ending it'. But he came to you. >You have done a wonderful thing. I am presently working with clients suffering from anxiety and depression - and know the great suffering in their lives. .... S: I also appreciate your compassionate and caring comments. Yes, it takes real desperation to be in such a state. We never know when our assistance will be needed or whether we'll be able to help. As we know, 'personalities' change from moment to moment too. Once when I worked in a psychiatric day-centre in London, one of my young, intelligent clients was very cheery and in good humour one day, but went home and committed suicide. I remember him so well. It was really shocking for me at the time, even though I already had heard a lot about dhammas and conditions. I'll look forward to any further reflections or comments you add to this or other threads, Chris. Always good to see you around! Metta, Sarah * Before Jon goes off to Fiji on Wed, we're making and sending a copy of the latest cd in mp3 (KK & Bkk, Jan 2007) for anyone who is unable to listen or download easily from the website. Let us know if you'd like one. ============ #96540 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder / "the letter" nilovg Dear Ann, I join Sarah. You remember, when you and Sarah stayed at our appartment long ago, we went through this letter of Jon together. It was the first time I saw it and found it very relevant. I remember the occasion vividly. Nina. Op 14-mrt-2009, om 15:20 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > So lovely to read your letters recently too, full of helpful and > gentle reflections! I do think that when we share Dhamma reminders > and letters, it's a condition for there to be more reflection on > the contents, as it was in the case of the old one you referred to! > As you say, the dhamma reminders are timeless. #96541 From: "colette" Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:11 pm Subject: blood, blood. ksheri3 "Bhikkus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and nonecan have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' "bhikkus, feeling is not-self... "Bhikkus, perception is not-self... "Bhikkus, determinations are not-self..." Ledi Sayadaw U Pe Maung in Compiled by M. Paw. GOOD MORNING GROUP!, I AM EXILARATED TODAY BECAUSE OF THE CLEAR SKY AND THE WARMING TEMPERATURES. PARDON ME, in Chicago, ya have to worry about the wind since it is a TREMENDOUS FACTOR. No, it is not like the Doors' song "took a look around to see which way the wind blows", No, the doors, in the infantile and juvenile aspects of cognition, AT THAT TIME and IN THAT PLACE could only "connect" other experiences to the sensations they were experiencing in L.A. at that time <...> I can only have the best wishes for the magik circle that has taken me in and given me the opportunity to delve into the practices of such a solitary people i.e. Kalachakra Sutta. Believe it or not but the Hindu system does not negate the practices of Tantra. The practices of Tantra in Hindu theology are not "revered" as something like, say, the Upanishads, but the Tantric systems are FIRST cognized as being applicable and having importance to THE PATH, and SECONDLY they are not advised i.e. ya can't find a tantra application within the Theravadan doctrine. theravadans just will not allow you to study the techniques and "TRANSFORM THEIR CONSCIOUNESS" through the application of ulterior means. WHAT IS SELF? I'm doing things at home that I wasn't even bothering thinking of doing until the day I was absolutely forced to leave. I wanted the shock effect from the seperation of the roommates that I have grown accustomed to and the solice and consolation from these words that I have deliberately and intentionally kept hidden even from myself in a huge 3-ring binder. With that said may I extend a greeting to "Genjo Marinello who wrote "Zen Koan Practice" -- Hark, do I hear ERyu saying "It's a koan", over and over again? Ya see, rolling in his emptiness isn't all that exciting so he was eager to here the response that I might generate by "reminding" people of the past and/or KARMA. Genjo Marinello, I copied you on 7/17/04. The CREME de la CREME: I found my paper on Mudras from the Buddhist Corner "www.onmarkproductions.com/html/mudra-japan.shtml" I am into a CLEAR LIGHT and am learning tons of stuff on DREAM YOGA since this associates slightly with the Western Practice of Astrall Projection. I am full of anticipation and wonder at this moment since, as I've said since I recognized the behaviors and procedures in 2004, "I have the best magik circle that could ever be." Shall we go "polinate" some buds? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Good Morning Nina, > > Man, what a story. Must have been a Wild Awakening to have that as you open the front door. Things like that have happened to me several times AND THEY ARE EXTRAORDINARY MEDITATIONAL OBJECTS TO FOCUS ON. <...> #96542 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Reminder / "the letter" glenjohnann Dear Nina I remember Sarah and my visit with you in the Hague very well and fondly - meeting Lodewijk at that time too. And now that you mention it, I do recall now that we looked at Jon's letter and talked about it a lot. Thank you for reminding me. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I join Sarah. You remember, when you and Sarah stayed at our > appartment long ago, we went through this letter of Jon together. It > was the first time I saw it and found it very relevant. I remember > the occasion vividly. > Nina. #96543 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. glenjohnann Dear Sarah and Chris > --- On Sat, 14/3/09, Christine Forsyth wrote: > >You have done a wonderful thing. I am presently working with clients suffering from anxiety and depression - and know the great suffering in their lives. A: Chris, I really appreciate your post - our first inclination when hearing such news is strong feelings of support for those we know who suffer in the course of such dreadful experiences - in this case, for me it was Nina and Lodewijk. And the support, is it lobha or metta or dosa (in being concerned for them)? Do we really know the different moments? And then there were feelings of sympathy etc towards the poor neighbour (again, loba, metta, dosa, thinking of his sad plight). But I had not thought of it in terms of the good deeds of N and L. Thank you very much for the reminders. Yet another example for me of the subtle differences between lobha and metta and the dosa that can arise with "our concern", and the how rare it is that metta is extended equally to all. > S:* Before Jon goes off to Fiji on Wed, we're making and sending a copy of the latest cd in mp3 (KK & Bkk, Jan 2007) for anyone who is unable to listen or download easily from the website. Let us know if you'd like one. ============ A: Sarah, Yes, thank you. We are very non-tech in this house and a copy would be appreciated. John is good at this, but he is rarely here. > #96544 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:29 pm Subject: Re: patience, blood, blood. hantun1 Dear Nina (Sarah), > Nina: So happy our experience was an occasion for you to read dsg. so it has served this good thing anyway. Thank you for your good wishes, Han: I am reading DSG messages now, although I may not participate in the discussions. But one thing I notice is that all DSG messages do not appear in my mail box. For example, I see your above reply only in DSG messages at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages and not in my mail box. This had happened also before. I do not know why. But it is alright. I will check with the above messages list. Han #96545 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats kenhowardau Hi Robert Ep, -------------------- <. . .> KH: > > Did they sit on cushions and (as the Zen folk tell us) "just look?" Or did they do it by understanding the Dhamma as they went about their normal, everyday activities? > > RE: > I think it is fair to say that the Buddha's own words in the Anapanasati sutta give more than a clue to *one* way that they went about developing sati, and that is through sitting meditation, -------------------- The Buddha's "own words" must always be understood in the light of his entire teaching. Otherwise we will be quoting him out of context. As the Christians say, the devil himself may quote scriptures. :-) ------------------------- RE: > with the extensive meticulous instructions that the Buddha gave. --------------------- I am not aware that the Buddha ever gave extensive meticulous instructions for jhana development. Jhana was already practised before his time. The Buddha's extensive meticulous instructions were for vipassana (or satipatthana). Vipassana is correct knowledge of a presently arisen paramattha dhamma. And it doesn't matter whether that dhamma is a rare and auspicious jhana citta or a common and lowly dosa cetasika. It has only to be a dhamma that has arisen now in the course of *whatever* we are doing. ----------------------------- RE: > He gave similar talks in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta and many others, ----------------------------- If you want to understand suttas you must first understand theoretically the momentary world of citta, cetasikas and rupa. Sutta references to "people" and their "activities" are just similes and metaphors for describing those conditioned dhammas and their functions. ------------------------------- RE: > so we actually don't have to guess or squint to find the answer. -------------------------------- So the Dhamma is obvious, is it? :-) We have just seen Alex quoting the Buddha as speaking of 'one's self.' The "obvious" conclusion, as Alex says, is that the Buddha believed in atta. No squinting or guessing required! :-) But is that what you want? -------------------------------------------- RE: > I believe that the Buddha taught both development of sati through anapanasati,through attention to the foundations of mindfulness, through wise attention to his teachings and the company of good spiritual friends, through development of intellectual understanding so that one would understand what the path consisted of; through following the 8-fold Noble path in everyday life in order to develop kusala qualities and a kusula lifestyle, and also the development of sati in everyday life and in all activities, in all physical conditions and in all physical positions, which he also spoke of at length. He spoke of all these things and it is fair to say that he approved of all of them, and taught extensively about them. There is no reason to exclude any of these practices from the available palette of the path. ---------------------------------------------- I agree there is no need to exclude anything. No matter whether a person is practising jhana or simply going to the toilet, *now* is the time for satipatthana. There are dhammas - absolute realities - arising now. Do we know them, or do we only know concepts? ----------------------------- RE: > I believe that if Buddha bothered to give extensive talks about something, he probably intended that his students listen to what he was saying and take it to heart, not decide that he meant something else or should discard the parts that didn't fit with their personal philosophy. It is an inclusive list of things that foster the path, not exclusive of anything which he approved and promoted. ----------------------------- One of the things he gave extensive talks about was 'wrong view.' That didn't mean we were to ritualistically try to make wrong view arise. It meant if wrong view was present now, we might be able to understand it as such. ------------------------------------- RE: > The Buddha was also amazingly stern and clear about things that he did *not* approve of and he repeatedly warned monks and householders alike not to do the things that would lead to akusala results or would create negative kammas or rebirths. The list of such things is also extensive and detailed. Weirdly enough, sitting meditation never showed up on the list of things to avoid! ------------------------------------- Right understanding is always the way. It is the only way! A person with right understanding would never try to make right understanding - or any other dhamma - arise. (That would be nonsensical to him.) He would simply get on with his life knowing that whatever dhammas arose - good or bad, right or wrong - did so by conditions (beyond the control of any imagined person, or atta). Ken H #96546 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats kenhowardau Hi all, I wonder if any of you are having the same technical problem I have. After writing a message in the 'Reply' window I go to the 'Preview' window only to find that all the carriage returns have been removed, and the lines are now three times as long as they should be. I am reluctant to send a message in that format just in case it mucks up the whole list and people have to scroll across every line in order to read read it. If anyone else is experiencing the same thing they might be able to tell me what happens if I just post it. (What I have been doing is to go back to the reply window and start again, this time remembering to select: "New! Compose your message with Rich-Text Editor (Beta)." (Of course, I don't have to type it all out again, I just paste a copy of the old one.)) Ken H #96548 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats truth_aerator Hi Ken, all, > "kenhowardau" wrote: > Or did they do it by understanding the Dhamma as they went about >their normal, everyday activities? Understanding isn't gained by reading Books just like satiety isn't gained through reading a menu. > RE: > I think it is fair to say that the Buddha's own words in the > Anapanasati sutta give more than a clue to *one* way that they went > about developing sati, and that is through sitting meditation, > -------------------- > > The Buddha's "own words" must always be understood in the light of >his entire teaching. And his teaching also included the need for strong effort. No effort and one will sink amid defilements as one did. Extraordinary effort is require to breakthrough extraordinary bonds of sensual desire and such. Here is a typical description of 4 right efforts in N8P: Katamo cavuso sammavayamo: idhavuso, bhikkhu anuppannanam papakanam akusalanam dhammanam anuppadaya chandam janeti vayamati viriyam arabhati cittam pagganhati padahati. Uppannanam papakanam akusalanam dhammanam pahanaya chandam janeti vayamati viriyam arabhati cittam pagganhati padahati. Anuppannanam kusalanam dhammanam uppadaya chandam janeti vayamati viriyam arabhati cittam pagganhati padahati. Uppannanam kusalanam dhammanam thitiya asammosaya bhiyyobhavaya vepullaya bhavanaya paripuriya chandam janeti vayamati viriyam arabhati cittam pagganhati padahati. Ayam vuccatavuso sammavayamo. - MN 141 "And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort." - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html Important points: ...chandam janeti vayamati viriyam arabhati cittam pagganhati padahati. Generates the will, begins to strive with energy, holds up the mind and strives... chanda=will; wish. janeti = generates; produces; gives birth. vayamati = strives, endeavors. viriyam = vigour; energy; effort; strength. arabhati = 1. begins; starts; 2. kills; tortures. citta = the mind pagganhati = holds up; takes up; supports; favours; stretches forth. padahati = strives; takes up; confronts. For: non arising or subsiding of "papakanam akusalanam dhammanam" Sinful and unwholesome DHAMMA s! Note: One holds the mind, exerts and strives to prevent the arising of papakanam akusalanam dhammanam (sinful & unwholesome dhammas). One prevents the arising of DHAMMAs! So much for "no effort" papaka & akusala teachings masquerading as 'Buddhism'. In MN20 he has described the sort of effort required, up to a point of "ramming the tongue against the upper lip and crushing mind with mind". >I am not aware that the Buddha ever gave extensive meticulous >instructions for jhana development. Read the suttas. > Jhana was already practised before his time. Some people doubt that. There is a sutta where it says that Buddha has awoke (or discovered) Jhana. "he awakened one who awakened to jhana," http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn02/sn02.007.than.html > If you want to understand suttas you must first understand >theoretically the momentary world of citta, cetasikas and rupa. That theory is untaught by the Buddha. > ------------------------------- >RE: > so we actually don't have to guess or squint to find the >answer. > -------------------------------- > > So the Dhamma is obvious, is it? :-) In a sense yes, in a sense no. The hardest part is to apply it rather than talk or speculate about it. With metta, Alex #96549 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats glenjohnann Hi Ken No, I haven't experienced what you are talking about. Your post below came through as usual. However, there have been times when I could not get in at all to reply. This has not been the case for a while, though. Good luck with it. HOpe you are keeping well. Ann #96550 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] my personal copy of KS's Survey epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep, > Thank you for your kind concern. > As to Survey, what about this: you could read one page, I would say > after the Intro which gives all the sources, and then utter one > remark or question maybe. You are bound to have questions and it is > not too time consuming if we keep it one little bit by one little > bit. What about it? > Nina. This is a nice idea and I will try to do something like this. It may still take some time, but I will indeed post my thoughts or questions. Thanks, Robert E. ======================== #96551 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Robert Ep, > > -------------------- > <. . .> > KH: > > Did they sit on cushions and (as the Zen folk tell us) "just > look?" > > Or did they do it by understanding the Dhamma as they went about their > normal, everyday activities? > > > > > RE: > I think it is fair to say that the Buddha's own words in the > Anapanasati sutta give more than a clue to *one* way that they went > about developing sati, and that is through sitting meditation, > -------------------- > > The Buddha's "own words" must always be understood in the light of his > entire teaching. Otherwise we will be quoting him out of context. As the > Christians say, the devil himself may quote scriptures. :-) This may be somewhat true, but I also don't think it is a good excuse to ignore or change what he actually says. Context is one thing, but reversal or adding a whole bunch of context that isn't actually there, resulting in a reversal of the plain meaning, is something else again. I think it is more dangerous to add context that comes from a philosophical view, than to read what is actually there and use context to understand it better, not worse....-er...... > > ------------------------- > RE: > with the extensive meticulous instructions that the Buddha gave. > --------------------- > > I am not aware that the Buddha ever gave extensive meticulous > instructions for jhana development. Talking about breathing meditation. Jhana was already practised before > his time. The Buddha's extensive meticulous instructions were for > vipassana (or satipatthana). Vipassana is correct knowledge of a > presently arisen paramattha dhamma. And it doesn't matter whether that > dhamma is a rare and auspicious jhana citta or a common and lowly dosa > cetasika. It has only to be a dhamma that has arisen now in the course > of *whatever* we are doing. Right, being aware of what is as it is. Yet the description of anapanasati also suggests that this was an approved and instructed activity. > > ----------------------------- > RE: > He gave similar talks in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta and > many others, > ----------------------------- > > If you want to understand suttas you must first understand theoretically > the momentary world of citta, cetasikas and rupa. Sutta references to > "people" and their "activities" are just similes and metaphors for > describing those conditioned dhammas and their functions. That may be true; yet I think it is presumptuous to think you must understand Abhidhamma *first* and sutta second. That is taking a secondary philosophy and injecting it into the primary philosophy, a dangerous practice for understanding what the Buddha actually said and meant. I think it is fine to follow the roadmap the Buddha laid out and then to supplement it with additional knowledge as well. > > ------------------------------- > RE: > so we actually don't have to guess or squint to find the answer. > -------------------------------- > > So the Dhamma is obvious, is it? :-) Didn't say that, but nice try. I said that the Buddha's description of how to use breathing meditation to practice sati is written fairly plainly and laid out in understandable language. The dhamma as a whole is a complex set of teachings, although the basic principles are not too complex to understand. The practice and the realization of its principles in life is the most complex. But there is no doubt when the Buddha says "practicing this for 7 years, 7 months, 7 weeks or even 7 days" will lead to the development of sati towards enlightenment, that this language does not mean the opposite of what it says, whatever the complexity or context of the dhamma as a whole. > We have just seen Alex quoting the Buddha as speaking of 'one's self.' > The "obvious" conclusion, as Alex says, is that the Buddha believed in > atta. No squinting or guessing required! :-) > > But is that what you want? I don't agree with that. But it's not pertinent to what I have said or what the Buddha has laid out in great detail. The use of the word "self" and what it implies is a more subtle issue than a large number of specific verses on following and being aware of breathing to develop sati. I think the explanation of the "context" that turns anapanasati into something that is too advanced for us is much more convoluted than a clear reading of the sutta itself. Breathing is a basic activity that we do all the time. Being aware of it is not something that is far removed from us. > > -------------------------------------------- > RE: > I believe that the Buddha taught both development of sati through > anapanasati,through attention to the foundations of mindfulness, through > wise attention to his teachings and the company of good spiritual > friends, through development of intellectual understanding so that one > would understand what the path consisted > of; through following the 8-fold Noble path in everyday life in order to > develop kusala qualities and a kusula lifestyle, and also the > development of sati in everyday life and in all activities, in all > physical conditions and in all physical positions, which he also spoke > of at length. He spoke of all these things and it is fair to say that he > approved of all of them, and taught extensively about them. There is no > reason to exclude any of these practices from the available palette of > the path. > ---------------------------------------------- > > I agree there is no need to exclude anything. No matter whether a person > is practising jhana or simply going to the toilet, *now* is the time for > satipatthana. No problem with that. In that case, don't exclude anything, and neither will I. > > There are dhammas - absolute realities - arising now. Do we know them, > or do we only know concepts? Good question - how can you personally tell the difference? Can you? If so, then there is no danger of losing your way in meditation. If you can't, then whatever you say you will still be lost. > ----------------------------- > RE: > I believe that if Buddha bothered to give extensive talks about > something, he probably intended that his students listen to what he was > saying and take it to heart, not decide that he meant something else or > should discard the parts that didn't fit with their personal philosophy. > It is an inclusive list of things that foster the path, not exclusive of > anything which he approved and promoted. > ----------------------------- > > One of the things he gave extensive talks about was 'wrong view.' That > didn't mean we were to ritualistically try to make wrong view arise. It > meant if wrong view was present now, we might be able to understand it > as such. It is understanding that is at issue. Once again, you take a an abstract association and try to make it equal to the obvious. No one would ever thing that we are to make "wrong view" arise, that is a straw man. Obviously he was talking about wrong view as an impediment, while his talks on breathing awareness were clearly the opposite. Do you think he was telling us to stop breathing? That would be a fascinating practice if you want to make things the opposite of what they say. > > ------------------------------------- > RE: > The Buddha was also amazingly stern and clear about things that he > did *not* approve of and he repeatedly warned monks and householders > alike not to do the things that would lead to akusala results or would > create negative kammas or rebirths. The list of such things is also > extensive and detailed. Weirdly enough, sitting meditation never showed > up on the list of things to avoid! > ------------------------------------- > > Right understanding is always the way. It is the only way! yes, let it arise all the time. While on the toilet, during sitting meditation, and while contemplating Abhidhamma, as well as while riding the bicycle. But don't crash. > > A person with right understanding would never try to make right > understanding - or any other dhamma - arise. (That would be nonsensical > to him.) He would simply get on with his life knowing that whatever > dhammas arose - good or bad, right or wrong - did so by conditions > (beyond the control of any imagined person, or atta). What's the difference between doing that and not following the path at all? We all go about our lives in any case. Is your philosophy "Give up, and hope that panna strikes you like lightning?" In any case, a "good meditator" does not try to make anything arise, just takes the occasion to pay attention to what *does* arise. But for some reason, this is not okay, because he sat down in the first place, instead of having coffee in the local cafe. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #96552 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:44 am Subject: Without Wavering! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Seeing the momentary Arising & Ceasing gives Calm! The Venerable Channa once said to a fellow disciple: Friend Sariputta , it is because I have seen, known and directly experienced the momentary arising & ceasing of the eye, eye-consciousness, and any phenomena recognizable by eye-consciousness, that I indeed regard them all thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self... Furthermore: It is because I have seen, known & directly experienced the momentary arising & ceasing of the ear, ear-consciousness, & any phenomena recognizable by ear-consciousness, the nose, olfactory consciousness, and any phenomena recognizable by such nose-consciousness, the tongue, gustatory- consciousness, and any phenomena recognizable by this tongue-consciousness, the body, body-consciousness, and any phenomena recognizable by this tactile consciousness, the mind, mental-consciousness, any phenomena recognizable by mental-consciousness, that I now indeed consider all these states thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self... Then Venerable Mahacunda said to Venerable Channa : Then friend Channa , this teaching of the Buddha is to be given acute, constant & close attention: In any dependence, there is always a shaky, risky & vacillating wavering! In all independence, there is neither any shaky, nor any risky wavering! When there is no wavering, then there is tranquillity. When there is tranquillity, there is neither inclination, nor bias, nor bending, nor attraction, nor repulsion... When there is no such inclination, then there is neither any coming, nor any going! When there is no coming & going, there is no passing away, nor any being reborn... When there is neither passing away, nor being reborn, then there is neither here, nor beyond, nor in between the two. This –itself- is the very End of all Suffering... Stable Independence and Unstable Dependence... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [59] Section 35: On The 6 Senses. Channa: 87. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Without Wavering! #96553 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience, blood, blood. sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, I hope you don't mind if I comment on our off-list chat here, as it might be helpful to others with similar yahoo problems. --- On Sun, 15/3/09, han tun wrote: But one thing I notice is that all DSG messages do not appear in my mail box. For example, I see your above reply only in DSG messages at http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/dhammastud ygroup/messages and not in my mail box. ... S: You've now found that all the 'missing' messages were in your "SPAM" folder, including one I sent you some time ago in our 'heart-base' thread. This can easily happen. Sometimes someone also forgets they've set up a filter. If anyone else has any problems of these kinds, pls let Jon or I (or both of us) know off-list there is often a simple solution and we can double-check all the settings are correct. ... On our thread: >H: You are right! I did not see your reply on ‘heart-base.’ So I do not know what you had written. My latest position on this topic is I will stick to the Buddha’s words as they exactly are, i.e., “ya.m ruupa.m nissaaya†means “depending on this matter.†Nothing more, and nothing less. I will not try to figure out what “this matter†means. It does not matter whether it is heart or brain. What is more important is to know [if possible] what kilesas accompany the manodhaatu and manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu as they arise. Besides, knowing whether heart or brain will not help me in achieving the insight knowledge. ... S: Very well said! It is only the understanding of what can be known now that matters. ... S: I also asked after your and your wife, Tin Tin's health and you mentioned: >H: ......The illnesses will not be completely cured; they will only be under control, and we have accepted this fact of old-age and sickness. ... S: And such acceptance brings calm and detachment, I think. My mother called me yesterday and casually mentioned she'd broken her (right)arm a week ago and isn't able to drive for 6 weeks. She lives in a small village without shops, so is very dependent on her car to get around. Still, she was cheerful as usual! Clearly she'd been in extreme discomfort, but hardly mentioned this, not wishing to cause me any anxiety. I appreciate all your examples of acceptance and good humour. Metta, Sarah ======== #96554 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience, blood, blood. hantun1 Dear Sarah, > Sarah: My mother called me yesterday and casually mentioned she'd broken her (right) arm a week ago and isn't able to drive for 6 weeks. She lives in a small village without shops, so is very dependent on her car to get around. Still, she was cheerful as usual! Clearly she'd been in extreme discomfort, but hardly mentioned this, not wishing to cause me any anxiety. Han: I must say your mother is very brave and very considerate as well. Any broken bone at this age is not so easily healed. Our warmest best wishes to her. with metta and deepest respect, Han #96555 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience, blood, blood. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 15-mrt-2009, om 7:30 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > My mother called me yesterday and casually mentioned she'd broken > her (right)arm a week ago and isn't able to drive for 6 weeks. She > lives in a small village without shops, so is very dependent on her > car to get around. Still, she was cheerful as usual! Clearly she'd > been in extreme discomfort, but hardly mentioned this, not wishing > to cause me any anxiety. ------ N: Please transfer our heartfelt wishes for her recovery. Nina. #96556 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:01 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats kenhowardau Hi Ann, Nice to see you posting again! ---------- <. . .> A: > No, I haven't experienced what you are talking about. Your post below came through as usual. > > However, there have been times when I could not get in at all to reply. This has not been the case for a while, though. ---------- Thanks for the feedback. Interesting! Yahoo might work differently in different parts of the world. I've just checked the Preview page and it is still threatening to send my message in an extra-wide format. Let's see what happens if I click Send anyway. Ken H Sorry if this brings the entire internet to a standstill . . . . #96557 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. philofillet Hi Jon (with greeting to Scott and Azita further down) > The wise are those whose understanding is more highly developed than our own, and who can help us to understand better the path taught by the Buddha. The benefit of the association is to hear the teaching that is unique to the Buddhas. Ph: As you know based on AN 3.2 I value the definition of the wise person as he who behaves well. If you want to equate behaving well in body, speech and mind with understanding of the teaching that is unique to the Buddha, you may do so, and you may be right. I do value hearing the deep teachings and clearly there are much deeper definitions of wisdom than the kind I aspire to. (By the way, did you know that the strictest definition of all is that anyone other than the arahant, anyone who still has rebirth, is a fool! Can't remember where I saw it, a sutta in SN I think, but there are many degrees of wisdom and foolishness, clearly.) > > Other blessings mentioned in the sutta that suggest the development of understanding are: > - To reside in a suitable locality, to have performed meritorious deeds in the past, and to set oneself in the right direction; > - Reverence, humility, contentment, gratitude, and the timely hearing of the Dhamma; > - Patience, obedience, meeting the Samanas (holy men), and timely discussions on the Dhamma; > - Comprehension of the Noble Truths, and the realisation of Nibbana > - A mind that is not touched by the vicissitudes of life, a mind that is free from sorrow, stainless, and secure Ph: As I said, I am not motivated by the aspects of the sutta that point at deep understanding. It is good to hear them, but my understanding is where it is at. > Those blessings in the sutta that seem mundane in comparison (supporting one's parents, for example) need to be understood in the context of these many blessings that directly relate to the development of understanding. Ph: Well, again, you may be right, but Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation of the sutta, and the understanding that would come to me even without hearing his explanation is different than yours. I know Bhikkhu Bodhi is not the Buddha and there is no definite reason that his understanding should be better than yours, but his explanation and my understanding is that the sutta should be understood in a progressive way. Sorry, I'll have to stick with that understanding. But I do thank you for encouraging me to go deeper. One thing that always puzzles me is that you folks fail to understand that even in the aspects of Dhamma that are *not* particular to the Buddha, there is a much deeper and more mind-changing (ie kusala promoting) aspect of moral training than can be found in any other religion. You always discount it, demand to know "where in what you are saying is the deep teaching particular to the Buddha" in so many words, suggest (Ken does anyways) that I am a closet Xtian or should consider Xtnty. I really do feel quite often that in your keen interest in the depths of Dhamma you fail to appreciate the way gross defilements are challenged and weakened through more conventional teachings of the Buddha. I will thank Scott and Azita for their notes as well, and leave it there. I think we all have enough wisdom to know what approach to Dhamma is best to weaken the power of our gross defilements, or, if one is blessed in that department, as I suspect you are, to begin to eradicate them. Of course there is no person involved in this, not truly, it is all nama and rupa, dhammas performing functions. I accept that, in principle. Talk to you again at some point Jon and all. metta, phil #96558 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:15 am Subject: CMA and leaf from Bodhi Tree szmicio Dear Sarah and Jon, I thank you very much for your big gift. You were right, CMA really helps to answer my questions. It's wonderful book. It explains a lot about my doubts according to Vibhanaga. I gave the Bo Tree's leaf to my Mom and said that's from the tree that Buddha attained enlightenment and it helps her to cure her illness and she get better. I cannot tell her about Dhamma yet, the only thing she can understand for now is some kind of metaphysical phenomenon. Usually she has a lot of dosa about this whole Buddhist thing. But she was so happy that i gave her this leaf. She is also very greatful for that gift to you. moha is so deep rooted, it makes us belife that something can change our life. That there is some magical power, that can help us in life. That people and world exist. As long as we belive in such stories, there is no right understanding. There is no detachement form notion of self. Once Blessed One said: "Make an island of yourself, make yourself your refuge; there is no other refuge. Make the Dhamma your island, make the Dhamma your refuge; there is no other refuge. " This Bodhi leaf was such a good reminder to me, Reminds me about seeing and hearing now. Thank you for such deep dhamma gift. -------- Can you say more about seeing and hearing now? What are the conditions for them? There is seeing and hearing now, but we are forgetfull about them. What are te conditions for understanding of nama and rupa. Jon can you say more about nama and rupa? I like to hear you. And our last talk was so long ago. There is so much forgetfulnes in daily life. We prefer to live in plesant world of our own, then develop understanding now. My best wishes Lukas #96559 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:17 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats kenhowardau Hi Alex, ------------------ <. . .> A: > Understanding isn't gained by reading Books ----------------- Generally speaking, understanding *is* gained largely by reading books, isn't it? ----------------------- A: > just like satiety isn't gained through reading a menu. ----------------------- Thanks for the word 'satiety' BTW - a new one for me. I thought it was a typo at first. :-) I agree satiety is not gained through reading a menu. But an understanding of which dishes are available for ordering *is* gained through reading the menu, isn't it? So are we agreed that understanding can be gained by reading? Eating is a different matter, but the Dhamma is not about gaining a full stomach, it is about gaining understanding. ----------------- <. . .> KH: > > The Buddha's "own words" must always be understood in the light of his entire teaching. > > A: > And his teaching also included the need for strong effort. No effort and one will sink amid defilements as one did. Extraordinary effort is require to breakthrough extraordinary bonds of sensual desire and such. ------------------- Yes indeed, but people at DSG are trying to tell you that, in reality, effort is a conditioned dhamma. In the conventional world, effort is not known as a conditioned dhamma. In the conventional world good effort and bad effort are things we can produce at will. But the Buddha was not talking about the conventional world. --------------------------- A: > Here is a typical description of 4 right efforts in N8P: Note: One holds the mind, exerts and strives to prevent the arising of papakanam akusalanam dhammanam (sinful & unwholesome dhammas). One prevents the arising of DHAMMAs! So much for "no effort" papaka & akusala teachings masquerading as 'Buddhism'. In MN20 he has described the sort of effort required, up to a point of "ramming the tongue against the upper lip and crushing mind with mind". --------------------------- Yes, thanks for the quotes, but we must always remember anatta. No matter how similar those descriptions may sound to things known to conventional wisdom, we must never confuse them with anything containing - or pertaining to - a self. (Here 'self' means any persisting entity such as a person, or a tree, or a course of action etc.) So, read those quotes again in the light of anatta, and you will see that they are describing fleeting paramattha dhammas - things that arise and fall purely by conditions without the slightest instrumentality of a person or persisting entity. Ken H #96560 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:01 pm Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats truth_aerator Hi Ken and all, > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > ------------------ > <. . .> > A: > Understanding isn't gained by reading Books > ----------------- > >Generally speaking, understanding *is* gained largely by reading >books, isn't it? Even a parrot can be taught to say advanced things, so the secret is not there. Remember the monkeys joke? Same is here. Preliminary sutta reading IS required, but up to a point to know how to properly develop kusala and drop akusala qualities. In my books true understanding = letting go of craving (tanha, nandi, lobha) through vijja. > > ----------------------- > A: > just like satiety isn't gained through reading a menu. > ----------------------- > > Thanks for the word 'satiety' BTW - a new one for me. I thought it was a typo at first. :-) > > I agree satiety is not gained through reading a menu. But an >understanding of which dishes are available for ordering *is* gained >through reading the menu, isn't it? It is not the kind of understanding that by itself removes akusala. For example somewhere in Ananda sutta (khandavagga) Ananda said that view of self comes from craving. Thus to remove self view, craving must be removed. > So are we agreed that understanding can be gained by reading? >Eating is a different matter, but the Dhamma is not about gaining a >full stomach, it is about gaining understanding. There is a difference between knowing purely intellectually ABC and by "knowing in a sense of abandoning". > >Yes indeed, but people at DSG are trying to tell you that, in >reality, effort is a conditioned dhamma. This doesn't remove the need for STRONG effort, at some points it could be up to "tongue against the roof of the mouth, and crush mind with mind". Of course this type of teaching is not for the mass. >But the Buddha was not talking about the conventional world. He was for 1000s of pages. > --------------------------- > > Yes, thanks for the quotes, but we must always remember anatta. Yes. >No matter how similar those descriptions may sound to things known >to conventional wisdom, we must never confuse them with anything >containing - or pertaining to - a self. (Here 'self' means any >persisting entity such as a person, or a tree, or a course of action >etc.) I agree through experience that it is impossible to have any meaningful self outside of 5 aggregates . However conventionally there is an atta and Buddha frequently used the word. See my other post on that matter. Either you flatly deny what Buddha has said: Dhp 165: "Attana hi katam papam, attana samkilissati. " By Atta the evil is done, by Atta one becomes soiled/impure 160: Atta hi attano natho, ko hi natho paro siya. Attana hi sudantena, natham labhati dullabham.. 160. self (Atta) truly is the protector of self Atta; who else could the protector be? With self Atta well tamed, self atta gains protection that is hard to gain. Or we can agree that conventional (anicca, dukkha, anatta) atta, personhood, reflexive pronoun, exists. With metta, Alex #96561 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:11 pm Subject: Re: patience scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Regarding: "...based on my favourite sutta ... I think that one can dare make surmises from behaviour...The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)..." Scott: Here's the sutta: "Monks, by his deeds the fool is marked, by his deeds the wise man is marked. Wisdom shines forth by one's behaviour. "By three characteristics a fool is to be known. What three? Immorality in deed, speech, and thought. These are the three... "By three characteristics a wise man is to be known. What three? Morality in deed, speech, and thought. These are the three... "Wherefore, monks, thus must ye train yourselves: Abandoning those three things by which the fool is to be known, we will acquire and practise those three conditions by which the wise man is to be known" Kammalakkha.no , bhikkhave, baalo, kammalakkha.no pa.n.dito, apadaanasobhanii [apadaane sobhati (syaa. ka.m. pii.)] pa~n~naati [pa~n~natti (?)]. Tiihi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannaagato baalo veditabbo. Katamehi tiihi? Kaayaduccaritena, vaciiduccaritena, manoduccaritena. Imehi kho, bhikkhave, tiihi dhammehi samannaagato baalo veditabbo. Tiihi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannaagato pa.n.dito veditabbo. Katamehi tiihi? Kaayasucaritena, vaciisucaritena, manosucaritena. Imehi kho, bhikkhave, tiihi dhammehi samannaagato pa.n.dito veditabbo. Tasmaatiha, bhikkhave, eva.m sikkhitabba.m â€" 'yehi tiihi dhammehi samannaagato baalo veditabbo te tayo dhamme abhinivajjetvaa, yehi tiihi dhammehi samannaagato pa.n.dito veditabbo te tayo dhamme samaadaaya vattissaamaa'ti. Eva~nhi vo, bhikkhave, sikkhitabba 'nti. Dutiya.m. Scott: I see where you've essentially signed off, Phil. I'll post this as I was working on it between chores and errands and may as well, not to drag you back. I see where 'kammalakkha.na' means 'having kamma as distinctive characteristic' (PTS PED). I see where 'conditions' is the word used, at least in the PTS edition of AN, for 'dhammehi'; and where 'samannaagato' refers to 'followed by, possessed of, endowed with.' I see where 'veditabba' has to do with 'to be understood or known'. As far as 'apadaane sobhati', this seems tricky since 'apadaana' is 'removing, breaking off'. The wise man is known, perhaps, because the conditions for continued existence no longer result in existence continuing. How is morality known? Of what does it consist? Is it more than appearing to oneself and others as moral? At the bottom of it there are kusala dhammas to be known. There is no one level for the self and then another level for 'deeper' Dhamma. P: "...And 'approach' was the wrong word, I should have used 'response.' It's response to vipaka that is the key. I use the word 'approach' too much, I know. There has to be a self-interest at work behind an 'approach.' Well, I have no problem with a self-interest at work, considering the level of defilements I'm working with. Gross, man, totally gross!" Scott: Phil, I think there *is* a problem with having 'no problem with a self interest at work'. Approaching 'defilements' with such a level of aversion as noted above seems to me to be missing the point somehow. There is so much dosa apparent in the vehemence with which you say 'totally gross!' that this reminds me of similar 'responses' to immorality in my own experience. These moments are not related to sobha.na dhammas. These are fraught with agitation and don't have the calm nor the peace associated with a true knowing of any dhamma - just for what it is. This is just getting angry at noticing akusala and, in my opinion, goes nowhere. Moments of knowing are themselves calm and are themselves condition for the future non-arising of akusala. Sincerely, Scott. #96562 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Phil & all, Thanks to Phil for helping us to reflect further on this verse again: --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Scott wrote: >Scott: In the sutta, the phrase 'Not to associate with the foolish, but to associate with the wise' is not to be misunderstood. A look at the Paa.li shows why. We have: 'Asevanaa baalaana.m pa.n.ditaana~ nca sevanaa.' The 'wise' is 'pa.n.dita' and this is synonymous with the adjectival form of pa~n~naa; PTS PED: >"Pa~n~na ( -- pa~n~na) (adj.) [the adj. form of pa~n~naa] of wisdom, en- dowed with knowledge or insight, possessed of the highest cognition ... By itself (i. e. not in cpd.) only at Dh 208 (=lokiyalokuttara -- pa~n~naaya sampanna ... " >Scott: Associating with the wise can only refer to pa~n~naa. Baalaa is 'Baala 1 (adj.) ... its orig. meaning is 'young, unable to speak' ... lacking in reason, devoid of the power to think & act right. In the latter sense sometimes coupled with andha (spiritually blind), as andhabaala stupid & ignorant, mentally dull ..." >Clearly, this refers to ignorance imbuing citta with it's flavour. The wise is citta with pa~n~naa, the foolish is citta with avijja. This can only refer to the necessity of the development of pa~n~naa. I don't think there is any other important level to consider. How is the wise known? How is the foolish known? .... S: Wise comments! From the commentary (Nanamoli's transl of Paramatthajotikaa, comy to Khuddakapaa.tha, PTS): "Herein, 'not consorting (asevanaa)' is not frequenting, not reverencing. 'With the foolish (baalaana"m)': they are strong, they breathe (balanti ananti), thus they are fools (baala); the intention is that they live with mere in-breath and out-breath instead of with the life of understanding (cf. Sn.182*). With that sort of foolish men." [* Sn. 182 (Saddhatissa's transl.): "The Buddha: Confidence is the best wealth to a man in this world. Well practised Dhamma brings [the most] happiness. Truth is the sweetest of all tastes. Living with wisdom is said to be the noblest kind."] continuing... " 'Rather with the wise (pa.n.ditaana"m)': they pick their way (pa.n.danti), thus they are wise (pa.n.dita); the intention is that they go with the gait of knowledge of benefits here and now and in the life to come. With that sort of wise men. 'Consorting (sevanaa)': frequenting, reverencing, them; companionship, intimacy, with them. " 'Honouring (puujaa)': worshipping, respecting, revering, paying homage. 'The honourable (puujaneyyaana"m)': those worthy of honour. 'This is a supreme good omen (etam mangalam uttama"m)': he said 'This is a supreme good omen' referring collectively to all that he had just mentioned, namely, the non-consorting with fools, the consorting with the wise, and the honouring of the honourable; what is meant is: 'Since you have asked "What is the supreme good omen?", take it that, in the first place, this is a supreme good omen.' " S: A very long commentary follows on the commentary. A few snippets I've previously marked (i.e. enjoyed) in our text: "Moreover a fool resembles stale fish, and one who consorts with him resembles a leaf-bag in which stale fish has been wrapped and so becomes fit only for wise men's rejection and disgust. And this is said: 'Now when a man ties up with blades 'Of kusa rass some fetid fish, 'The blades of gras get fetid too: 'Such is consorting with a fool' (Ja. vi. 236)." S: I take the 'consorting with' to refer to the assuming of the views of such. Likewise, the 'consorting with' the wise, refers to the appreciation of the wisdom, the understanding of such, as has been stressed. "Moreover, a wise man resembles such scented goods as tagara flowers, and one who consorts with him resembles a leaf in which tagara flowers have been wrapped, and he becomes fit for wise men's cultivation and approval. And this is said: 'Now when in foliage a man 'Ties up some tagara [incense] 'The leaves will of the scent partake: 'Such is consorting with the wise' (Ja. vi. 236)." Metta, Sarah ======= #96563 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] CMA and leaf from Bodhi Tree sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Sun, 15/3/09, szmicio wrote: >I thank you very much for your big gift. You were right, CMA really helps to answer my questions. It's wonderful book. It explains a lot about my doubts according to Vibhanaga. ... S: We're glad it arrived safely. As I said, it's a rather falling-apart copy and I didn't get round to erasing all my markings, but you won't mind. ... >I gave the Bo Tree's leaf to my Mom and said that's from the tree that Buddha attained enlightenment and it helps her to cure her illness and she get better. I cannot tell her about Dhamma yet, the only thing she can understand for now is some kind of metaphysical phenomenon. Usually she has a lot of dosa about this whole Buddhist thing. But she was so happy that i gave her this leaf. She is also very greatful for that gift to you. ... S: That's very touching. Actually, I noticed in recent years that there are no leaves to pick up anymore and large numbers of people visit. But when I stayed many months in Bodh Gaya a long time back, I used to pick up leaves from time to time and still have a few... ... >moha is so deep rooted, it makes us belife that something can change our life. That there is some magical power, that can help us in life. That people and world exist. As long as we belive in such stories, there is no right understanding. There is no detachement form notion of self. ... S: Exactly so. Still, it's so nice that you can share the gift with your mother. I do hope she recovers from her illness too. ... >Once Blessed One said: "Make an island of yourself, make yourself your refuge; there is no other refuge. Make the Dhamma your island, make the Dhamma your refuge; there is no other refuge. " >This Bodhi leaf was such a good reminder to me, Reminds me about seeing and hearing now. Thank you for such deep dhamma gift. ... S: This is the 'association with the wise' - the association with the Buddha's teaching, with the Buddha's wisdom, which can lead us to enlightenment. Yes, a leaf can be a condition for wise or unwise reflection! I'll leave the other comments for Jon to respond to. He's very busy with work and preparing for his trip at the moment, but I know he'll be delighted to discuss further with you. Thank you for your kind note and friendship, Lukas. Metta, Sarah ============ #96564 From: "Robert" Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:45 pm Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats avalo1968 Hello Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Generally speaking, understanding *is* gained largely by reading books, isn't it? > I was quite surprised by this statement. 'Intellectual' understanding can be acquired by reading books, but this is of a very different nature from the 'intuitive' understanding that liberates - if this understanding came from reading books, then the Buddhist Studies departments of universities would be filled with enlightened beings. Regards, Robert A. #96565 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience nilovg Dear Scott and Phil, Great discussion. I like Scott's paraphrasing. Just something about the Pali. Op 15-mrt-2009, om 13:11 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > As far as 'apadaane sobhati', this seems tricky since 'apadaana' is > 'removing, breaking off'. The wise man is known, perhaps, because > the conditions for continued existence no longer result in > existence continuing. ------- N: apadaana can also mean: life. Sines forth in his life. Pa~n~naati: the ti can here be at the end of a saying a quote. Thus not: pa~n~natti. These are only suggestions. Nina. #96566 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:28 pm Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats glenjohnann Hi Ken YOur message came through as usual - normal in all respects! ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > I've just checked the Preview page and it is still threatening to send my message in an extra-wide format. Let's see what happens if I click Send anyway. > > Ken H > > Sorry if this brings the entire internet to a standstill . . . . > #96567 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: patience scottduncan2 Dear Nina and Phil, N: "...Just something about the Pali...apadaana can also mean: life. Shines forth in his life. Pa~n~naati: the ti can here be at the end of a saying a quote. Thus not: pa~n~natti. These are only suggestions." Scott: Yes, the CSCD has: "...apadaanasobhanii [apadaane sobhati (syaa. ka.m. pii.)] pa~n~naati [pa~n~natti (?)]..." and to me their question regarding the presence of the word 'pa~n~natti' is answered since the word wouldn't fit the sense of the phrase. With the subtlety of the Paa.li, the various ways in which knowing is stated suggests strongly to me that pa~n~naa is at the base of it - pa~n~naa which knows when kusala is kusala and then this knowing as condition for the 'behaviour' which shines. Sincerely, Scott. #96568 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:54 pm Subject: levels of understanding truth_aerator Hi Robert, Ken and all, > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > > I was quite surprised by this statement. 'Intellectual' >understanding can be acquired by reading books, but this is of a >very >different nature from the 'intuitive' understanding that >liberates - >if this understanding came from reading books, then the >Buddhist >Studies departments of universities would be filled with >enlightened >beings. > > Regards, > > Robert A. Exactly! There is a difference between being able to recite wise sayings, understanding them, and most importantly, fully living by them. With metta, Alex #96569 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience nilovg Dear Scott, I was puzzled by: siyaa ka.m pii. And also not so sure about the ti. But your conclusion is right. Nina. Op 15-mrt-2009, om 16:58 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > With the subtlety of the Paa.li, the various ways in which knowing > is stated suggests strongly to me that pa~n~naa is at the base of > it - pa~n~naa which knows when kusala is kusala and then this > knowing as condition for the 'behaviour' which shines. #96570 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:44 pm Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats kenhowardau Hi Robert Ep, It would be good if you could just see what I was trying to tell you - even if you disagreed with it. (Which I am sure you will!) :-) I and others have always been saying that satipatthana was not something 'to be done' (in the normal sense of 'to be done'). And yet you still think we are talking about doing something. When we say (for example) "now is the time for satipatthana" we don't mean 'now is the time for doing something designed to bring about satipatthana.' Now - irrespective of whatever conventional activity we may think we are engaged in - is *the* time in which satipatthana can arise. It will arise if, and only if, the conditions for it have been put in place. So we are not talking about "doing" anything. Satipatthana, like all conditioned dhammas, comes and goes in a trillionth of a second. It is not something about which anything can be done. If I can think of a conventional example: You are understanding the English language now. That is because you have learnt English in the past. The conditions for understating English have been put in place. You are not "doing" anything in order to understand English, are you? Understanding the presently arisen dhamma-arammana is a similar sort of thing! (Except the conditions required are much harder to come by.) :-) Once people get the hang of this they really love talking about "the present moment." For example, I love to see that the Dhamma was taught for the benefit of me *now* (for the benefit of the presently arisen five khandhas). (It was not taught for the benefit some future emanation of me who will practise satipatthana and become a sotapanna etc., etc.) Right now there are only dhammas (the mental and physical phenomena described by Buddhas)! I understand that, and I am enormously grateful to understand it. OK, my understanding is only a theoretical one at this stage, but it is still far, far better than any other understanding I possess - about anything! :-) Ken H <. . .> > What's the difference between doing that and not following the path at all? We all go about our lives in any case. Is your philosophy "Give up, and hope that panna strikes you like lightning?" > > In any case, a "good meditator" does not try to make anything arise, just takes the occasion to pay attention to what *does* arise. But for some reason, this is not okay, because he sat down in the first place, instead of having coffee in the local cafe. > > Best, > Robert E. > > = = = = = = = = = > #96571 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:33 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. kenhowardau Hi Phil, ------- <. . .> Ph: > You always discount it, demand to know "where in what you are saying is the deep teaching particular to the Buddha" in so many words, suggest (Ken does anyways) that I am a closet Xtian or should consider Xtnty. -------- Sorry about that! I am one of those "fools" you were talking about earlier. Whenever I say tactless things I always expect people to be "mature" enough not to take them personally, but when people say tactless things to me I take them very personally! :-) Yes, I do believe that every word of the Dhamma should be understood in terms of satipatthana. I certainly don't believe (as some people do) that all the various religions, if followed in good spirit, will eventually lead to Nibbana. But that is probably not your belief either. In any case, to do good without right understanding is not enough. It won't get anyone off the wheel of samsara. Over the aeons good qualities dominate for a while, and then bad qualities dominate for a while. On and on it goes without end. So, in the final analysis, good and bad (without right understanding) are equally culpable. I can't imagine for a moment that the Buddha would have left anyone in doubt about that. Even if he didn't teach the Dhamma to all of the people who approached him I think he would at least have let them know "this Dhamma is the only way out." Something for them to bear in mind until they were ready to listen! :-) Ken H #96572 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:10 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats truth_aerator Hi Ken, and all, > "kenhowardau" wrote: > I and others have always been saying that satipatthana was not >something 'to be done' (in the normal sense of 'to be done'). And >yet you still think we are talking about doing something. In that case there would be plenty of Arahants walking in layman's clothing because ordinary people do NOT *do* any satipatthana or any 'formal practice.' Everyone not-familiar with formal satipatthana practice would be Arahants by now (since they don't do satipatthana. They don't try to *develop* kusala and *drop* akusala). > So we are not talking about "doing" anything. Then any non-Buddhist would be an Arahant since they are not doing any practice of satipatthana, they are not *doing* any removal of hindrances, they do not try to develop wholesome states. With metta, Alex #96573 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:12 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > > Hello Ken, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > Generally speaking, understanding *is* gained largely by reading books, isn't it? > > > > I was quite surprised by this statement. 'Intellectual' understanding can be acquired by reading books, but this is of a very different nature from the 'intuitive' understanding that liberates - if this understanding came from reading books, then the Buddhist Studies departments of universities would be filled with enlightened beings. > ----------- Hi Robert A, Thanks for joining in. It must be fair to say that, generally speaking, understanding comes from reading books, mustn't it?. If you want to know how build a boat, for example, you will probably go to a library or a book shop. So that was my point about "generally speaking." I know that Right Understanding (panna-cetasika) is very different from ordinary (boat builder's etc) understanding, but even so, it can be obtained through reading books. When we hear or read the true Dhamma, panna-cetasika can arise to know that it is the true Dhamma. It all depends on whether the conditions for panna have been put in place (in previous lifetimes). Some people, as you say, could read all of the books in a Buddhist library and still not have right understanding. Is that the way you see it? I would like to know what you mean by "the intuitive understanding that liberates." I know that the ariyan's supramundane understanding is vastly greater than the beginner's intellectual understanding, but even so, the two are the same cetasika (panna ) aren't they? Ken H #96574 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:39 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats gazita2002 hallo Alex, Ken and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hi Ken, and all, > > > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > I and others have always been saying that satipatthana was not >something 'to be done' (in the normal sense of 'to be done'). And >yet you still think we are talking about doing something. > > In that case there would be plenty of Arahants walking in layman's clothing because ordinary people do NOT *do* any satipatthana or any > 'formal practice.' Everyone not-familiar with formal satipatthana practice would be Arahants by now (since they don't do satipatthana. They don't try to *develop* kusala and *drop* akusala). azita; definitely not so! there are many conditions for the arising of such highy developed wisdom such as found in arahatship. I think Ken has already mentioned past accumulations of panna. Mayb many lifetimes of developing understanding of presently arising realities. Some book knowledge, listening to the wise teacher, considering what was learnt - these can aid understanding but only if the understanding is there in the first place. And that comes from where? Past accumulations of wisdom and understanding, patience, courage and good cheer azita #96575 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Angry Monks sarahprocter... F/W message from Tharpa, sent to my personal account by mistake. ===================================================== --- On Fri, 13/3/09, tharpa wrote: > From: tharpa > Subject: [dsg] Re: Angry Monks > To: "sarah abbott" > Date: Friday, 13 March, 2009, 11:39 AM > Dear Sara, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > > Hi Rob M & Path3, > > > > I was glad you quoted from B.Bodhi's article on > Nanavira's teachings: > > > > --- On Mon, 9/2/09, robmoult > wrote: > > > His proposition sounds innocuous > > enough as it stands, until one discovers that the > author sees this > > task as entailing nothing less than a radical > revaluation of the > > entire Theravaada exegetical tradition. Few of the > standard > > interpretative principles upheld by Theravaada > orthodoxy are spared > > the slashing of his pen. The most time-honoured > explanatory tools for > > interpreting the Suttas, along with the venerated > books from which > > they stem, he dismisses as "a mass of dead matter > choking the > > Suttas." The Abhidhamma Pi.taka, the > Milindapa~nha, the > > Visuddhimagga, the Pali Commentaries -- all come in > for criticism, > > and the author says that ignorance of them "may > be counted a positive > > advantage as leaving less to be unlearned." > "< > > .... > > S: I noted that even on the website extract Path3 > referred us to, it says much the same: > > > > "..it can suggest an alternative approach to the > Buddha's original Teaching...." > > > > I wonder why anyone would wish to remain as a > Theravada bhikkhu if suggesting 'an alternative > approach'. > > Theravada is the only remaining old school of Buddhism. > Their ordination goes back to the Buddha, before the > formation of the various schools. The only obligations of > Theravadin monks are to follow the Vinaya, and perhaps to > practice the Dhamma as well. A Theravadin bhikkhu is under > no obligation to accept the later Theravadin interpretations > of the Tipitika. I am not a monk, but when I read the > Commentaries I am not at all favorably impressed. However, > when I read the Suttas, I am impressed. Skepticism about > the value of the Commentaries would not keep me from going > forth. > > >They > > Who is "they" in this sentence? > > >do great harm to the teachings, not to mention the > kamma involved in not adhering to the Vinaya. > > Suicide is not against the Vinaya. Maybe you think it > should be, but it is not. There are several suicides (all > monks) mentioned in the Tipitika, and none of them were > condemned by the Buddha. He did say that if one was hoping > for rebirth (perhaps in the god realm), that it would result > in a rebirth in Hell. (niraya) For one monk, in > particular, the Buddha very explicitly said that he had no > fault (apati, a term which he used for breaking of the > Vinaya rules), though the villagers who gave him the knife > were at fault! > > > > > I agreed with Rob M's other comments. > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > ======== > > > Tharpa #96576 From: "Robert" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:38 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats avalo1968 Hello again Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Robert A, > > Thanks for joining in. > > It must be fair to say that, generally speaking, understanding comes from reading books, mustn't it?. If you want to know how build a boat, for example, you will probably go to a library or a book shop. So that was my point about "generally speaking." > > I know that Right Understanding (panna-cetasika) is very different from ordinary (boat builder's etc) understanding, but even so, it can be obtained through reading books. > > When we hear or read the true Dhamma, panna-cetasika can arise to know that it is the true Dhamma. It all depends on whether the conditions for panna have been put in place (in previous lifetimes). Some people, as you say, could read all of the books in a Buddhist library and still not have right understanding. > .............. I am not sure why you say conditions for panna have been put in place specifically in previous lifetimes, because surely the way you are living this life has an impact as well. .............. > Is that the way you see it? I would like to know what you mean by "the intuitive understanding that liberates." I know that the ariyan's supramundane understanding is vastly greater than the beginner's intellectual understanding, but even so, the two are the same cetasika (panna ) aren't they? > > Ken H > .................. I use the word intuitive to distinguish it from intellectual understanding. Generally, intuitive understanding relies not on reasoning, but on direct seeing. Nyanatiloka refers to " that intuitive knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and the realization of Nibbana, and which consists in the penetration of the impermanency, misery, and impersonality of all forms of existence." Piyadassi Thera speaks of one who understands the Four Noble Truths to be "intuitively wise". Thanissaro Bhikkhu likes the term discernment, other translators use the term 'direct knowing'. No, I don't think this is the same as intellectual understanding and the difference is not just one of degree, but it seems they are fundamentally different things. Intellectual understanding doesn't care if you walk the whole Eightfold Path or not, but for intuitive understanding, all eight divisions of the path are required - sila and samadhi are conditions for clear seeing from which panna can arise. From the Mahavedalla Sutta (M43) - Bhikkhu Bodhi "Here friend right view is assisted by virtue, learning, discussion, serenity, and insight. Right view assisted by these five factors has deliverance of mind for its fruit, deliverance of mind for its fruit and benefit." It is hard to see the connection between intellectual understanding and virtue and serenity, but it makes sense when you are talking about clear seeing - intuitive understanding. I have no interest in getting into a 'doing or not doing' discussion, but wanted only to make the point that there is some reason that so many translators refer to such things as 'direct' knowing or 'intuitive' knowledge or discernment - because it is fundamental to distinguish this quality of mind from intellectual understanding. Intellectual understanding can easily come from reading, but with intuitive understanding this on only the first step. Nice to talk to you again. With Metta, Robert A. #96577 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:25 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats epsteinrob Hi Ken. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Robert Ep, > > It would be good if you could just see what I was trying to tell you - > even if you disagreed with it. (Which I am sure you will!) :-) > > I and others have always been saying that satipatthana was not something 'to be done' (in the normal sense of 'to be done'). And yet you still think we are talking about doing something. > > When we say (for example) "now is the time for satipatthana" we don't mean 'now is the time for doing something designed to bring about satipatthana.' > > Now - irrespective of whatever conventional activity we may think we are engaged in - is *the* time in which satipatthana can arise. It will arise if, and only if, the conditions for it have been put in place. > > So we are not talking about "doing" anything. Satipatthana, like all conditioned dhammas, comes and goes in a trillionth of a second. It is not something about which anything can be done. > > If I can think of a conventional example: You are understanding the English language now. That is because you have learnt English in the past. The conditions for understating English have been put in place. You are not "doing" anything in order to understand English, are you? Understanding the presently arisen dhamma-arammana is a similar sort of thing! (Except the conditions required are much harder to come by.) :-) > > Once people get the hang of this they really love talking about "the present moment." For example, I love to see that the Dhamma was taught for the benefit of me *now* (for the benefit of the presently arisen five khandhas). (It was not taught for the benefit some future emanation of me who will practise satipatthana and become a sotapanna etc., etc.) Right now there are only dhammas (the mental and physical phenomena described by Buddhas)! I understand that, and I am enormously grateful to understand it. > > OK, my understanding is only a theoretical one at this stage, but it is still far, far better than any other understanding I possess - about anything! :-) > > Ken H Indeed, we do not seem to be understanding each other. Perhaps my English is not as good as you thinkit is. I don't think Satipatthana is something "to be done" either. I also am grateful that at any moment we have the possibilty of realizing Satipatthana if the right conditions are in place at that moment. I also believe that the path can only take place in the moment, and that experience is fast and fleeting and cannot be grasped by a "doer." Where we disagree is on what creates those conditions and how they are created. The fact that we disagree does not mean that I don't understand your point of view. It means I have a different one. I hope you can respect that, even if you are absolutely sure I am wrong. Be well, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #96578 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:24 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (54-56) nilovg Dear friends, sutta 54. RD's [3.54] Three proficiencies, to wit, proficiency as to progress, regress, and the means of success. (Tii.ni kosallaani : aayakosalla.m, apaayakosalla.m, upaayakosalla.m.) Co: as to growth, this is progress in what is proficient, and as to regress, this is the opposite of growth. The cause of these is upaayo: the means. It is proficient to know these means. In the Vibhanga (ch 16, § 771) it has been explained in detail: progress in what is proficient: By attention to these dhammas the non- arisen akusala dhammas do not arise, and the arisen akusala dhammas cease. The non-arisen kusala dhammas arise and the arisen kusala dhammas by development of them in abundance reach accomplishment. Pa~n~naa which realizes this is right view, sammådi.t.thi. This is progress in what is proficient. N: As to regress in what is proficient, this is the opposite of progress in what is proficient. The Co explains that pa~n~naa which realizes this is sammaa-di.t.thi, right view. It is pa~n~naa that realizes the means or conditions, upaya, [for kusala and akusala]. This is proficiency of method. When a sense of urgency and fear of the danger (of akusala) has arisen there is a remedy [against akusala] and this is beneficial, since pa~n~naa knows the causes of the arising (of kusala and akusala). ------ The subco: As to progress: there is progress by a decrease of what is not beneficial and by arising of what is beneficial. There is regress by decrease of what is beneficial and by arising of what is not beneficial. -------------- N: Pa~n~naa, right view, has been emphasized in this text. When there is wrong view one develops the wrong Path. Subtle lobha may be hard to notice, for example when one, with clinging to an idea of self, wants to develop satipa.t.thaana. When someone does not see akusala he takes wrong effort for right effort, he takes regress for progress. Then there is no pa~n~naa that knows the right means to reach the goal and one will remain in the cycle of birth and death. Pa~n~naa knows what is beneficial and what is not, and it knows the conditions for them. -------- Co: Kosallesu aayoti vu.d.dhi. Apaayoti avu.d.dhi. Tassa tassa kaara.na.m upaayo. Tesa.m pajaananaa kosalla.m. Vitthaaro pana vibha"nge vuttoyeva... -------- Nina. #96579 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Angry Monks sarahprocter... Dear Tharpa, Welcome to DSG! I hope you may consider introducing yourself and letting us know where you come from. Thank you for replying to my note (addressed to Rob M & Path 3), --- On Fri, 13/3/09, tharpa wrote: > >S: I was glad you quoted from B.Bodhi's article on > Nanavira's teachings: > > > > --- On Mon, 9/2/09, robmoult > wrote: > > > His proposition sounds innocuous > > enough as it stands, until one discovers that the > author sees this > > task as entailing nothing less than a radical > revaluation of the > > entire Theravaada exegetical tradition. Few of the > standard > > interpretative principles upheld by Theravaada > orthodoxy are spared > > the slashing of his pen. The most time-honoured > explanatory tools for > > interpreting the Suttas, along with the venerated > books from which > > they stem, he dismisses as "a mass of dead matter > choking the > > Suttas." The Abhidhamma Pi.taka, the > Milindapa~nha, the > > Visuddhimagga, the Pali Commentaries -- all come in > for criticism, > > and the author says that ignorance of them "may > be counted a positive > > advantage as leaving less to be unlearned." > "< > > .... > > S: I noted that even on the website extract Path3 > referred us to, it says much the same: > > > > "..it can suggest an alternative approach to the > Buddha's original Teaching.... " > > > >S: I wonder why anyone would wish to remain as a > Theravada bhikkhu if suggesting 'an alternative > approach'. .... >T: Theravada is the only remaining old school of Buddhism. > Their ordination goes back to the Buddha, before the > formation of the various schools. The only obligations of > Theravadin monks are to follow the Vinaya, and perhaps to > practice the Dhamma as well. ... S: I think the purpose of becoming a Buddhist (Theravadin) monk is to live the Holy Life as laid down by the Buddha, to aspire to the life of the arahats by following the Eightfold Path, following the Vinaya. .... >A Theravadin bhikkhu is under > no obligation to accept the later Theravadin interpretations > of the Tipitika. I am not a monk, but when I read the > Commentaries I am not at all favorably impressed. However, > when I read the Suttas, I am impressed. Skepticism about > the value of the Commentaries would not keep me from going > forth. .... S: In such a case, though, I think one may understand, as B.Bodhi pointed out in his article above, that what one follows/understands is a "radical revaluation of the entire Theravaada exegetical tradition". Rather than pursuing this point, however, why not tell us what it is in the commentaries that you are not 'favourably impressed' with, so we can discuss the Dhamma points together. ... > > >They > > Who is "they" in this sentence? > > >do great harm to the teachings, not to mention the > kamma involved in not adhering to the Vinaya. ... S: Any bhikkhus who do not adhere to the Vinaya or the following of the Buddha's teachings. ..... >T: Suicide is not against the Vinaya. Maybe you think it > should be, but it is not. There are several suicides (all > monks) mentioned in the Tipitika, and none of them were > condemned by the Buddha. .... S: Akusala thoughts and deeds of all kinds are 'condemned' or pointed out by the Buddha for what they are and for what the results are. ... >He did say that if one was hoping > for rebirth (perhaps in the god realm), that it would result > in a rebirth in Hell. (niraya) For one monk, in > particular, the Buddha very explicitly said that he had no > fault (apati, a term which he used for breaking of the > Vinaya rules), though the villagers who gave him the knife > were at fault! .... S: We need to be careful with these details. The no fault (apati) refers to the fact that he became an arahat, as I recall, before death. No further rebirth, no kamma to bring any results any more. Akusala deeds were still akusala deeds. If you have time, please also look under the sections "Suicide" in Useful Posts in the files section of DSG. I'll be glad to read any of your further comments, Tharpa. Apologies again for not seeing your message until now. Metta, Sarah ======= #96580 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:20 am Subject: Awareness Awakens! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The 7 Links to Awakening Link & Lead to Awakening? They lead to & produce enlightenment, in this way are they links to awakening: They are themselves enlightened, in this way are they links to awakening. They are enlightened, since they embrace the root cause of awakening. They are enlightened, since they provide & equip the root cause of awakening. They are enlightened, since they induce ripening of the root cause of awakening. They are enlightened, since they promote distinction of the root cause of awakening. They are enlightened, since they completely perfect the root cause of awakening. How do the Seven Links to Awakening remain stably established & anchored in mind? The Awareness link remains by arising of other states not being given attention. The Awareness link remains by non-arising of attention being given to other states. The Awareness link remains by no attention being given to occurrence of other states. The Awareness link remains by attention being given to non-occurrence of other states. The Awareness link remains by the sign not being adverted to nor being given attention. The Awareness link remains by the sign-less state being given constant & steady attention. The Awareness link remains by no attention being given to any kind of mental construction. The Awareness link remains by full attention being given to ceasing of all kinds of craving. The Awareness link to Awakening indeed remains fixed & anchored in mind in these 8 ways. Exactly and similarly so with the other six links to Awakening. How do the Seven Links to Awakening fade away, diminish and cease? The Awareness link falls away, by arising of other states being given attention. The Awareness link falls away, by non-arising of other states, not being given attention. The Awareness link falls away, by occurrence of other states, being given attention. The Awareness link falls away, by non-occurrence of other states, not being given attention. The Awareness link falls away, by the sign-less state, not being given attention. The Awareness link falls away, by the sign being given too much attention. The Awareness link falls away, by ceasing not being given any attention. The Awareness link falls away, by mental constructions being given attention. The Awareness link to Awakening falls away in these eight aspects. Exactly and similarly so with the other six links to Awakening. <...> Source (edited extract): Sariputta Path of Discrimination: Patisambhidamagga. Treatise on the Links to Awakening XIII. Have a nice acutely aware day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Awareness Awakens! #96581 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:28 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats truth_aerator Hi Gazita, Ken and all, > "gazita2002" wrote: > > hallo Alex, Ken and others, >I think Ken has already mentioned past accumulations of panna. Mayb >many lifetimes of developing understanding of presently arising >realities. >Some book knowledge, listening to the wise teacher, considering what >was learnt - these can aid understanding but only if the >understanding >is there in the first place. And that comes from >where? Past >accumulations of wisdom and understanding, > And where does that past accumulation of wisdom come from? "And what is the faculty of discernment (panna)? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.010.than.html "And where, Bhikkhus, is the faculty of wisdom to be seen? The facultry of wisdom is to be seen in four Noble Truths". CDB pg 1670 Indriyasamyutta 48 8 (8) And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html With metta, Alex #96582 From: "Robert" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:10 pm Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats avalo1968 Hello again Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > OK, my understanding is only a theoretical one at this stage, but it is still far, far better than any other understanding I possess - about anything! :-) > > Ken H > Your use of the world 'theoretical' looks very much like what I am referring to as 'intellectual' knowledge. It comes from reading a book or listening to a Dhamma talk, but has no power to liberate one from suffering. The question is how is this 'theoretical' understanding is transformed into truth that liberates. In the meantime, there is the danger of this merely becoming a 'view' and an object of attachment. That is why it is good, to a certain extent, to practice mindfulness of your moment to moment experience with openness and spaciousness to see what is there, not necessarily what theory has prepared you to see. Regards, Robert A. #96583 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:10 pm Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats scottduncan2 Dear Robert A. (and Ken H.), Regarding: R: "Your use of the world 'theoretical' looks very much like what I am referring to as 'intellectual' knowledge. It comes from reading a book or listening to a Dhamma talk, but has no power to liberate one from suffering. The question is how is this 'theoretical' understanding is transformed into truth that liberates." Scott: Knowing and understanding is the purview of pa~n~naa. Right view is pa~n~naa and without this at the beginning there is nothing. For 'theoretical' understanding to be of any worth it has to be preceded and underwritten by pa~n~naa. Pa~n~naa can arise during reading, but one might be reading science fiction at the time... R: "In the meantime, there is the danger of this merely becoming a 'view' and an object of attachment. That is why it is good, to a certain extent, to practice mindfulness of your moment to moment experience with openness and spaciousness to see what is there, not necessarily what theory has prepared you to see." Scott: Sati is not to be commanded. This being the case, it is an impossiblility that one can 'practice mindfulness of [one's] moment to moment.' As a hedge against attaching to views, this is hardly a solution, since it is based from the start on wrong view, that is, that sati is one's to command. What are 'openness and spaciousness' and the rest except for words? If sati arises - if conditions are such that sati arises, and if it does so with pa~n~naa - then and only then is right view serving as the forerunner it is said to be. See MN 117, for example. This is the development of pa~n~naa. Then what is arising and falling away from moment to moment can be understood. Sincerely, Scott. #96584 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] death of a friend upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Hi Howard, thanks. I was thinking of you and your computer, and it is so empty without you. ------------------------------ Thanks, Nina! So sweet of you to say that. :-) Still no home computer use. Tomorrow I'm supposed to get the monitor back. I do hope that is where the problem lay and that it has been properly repaired - else the process will continue! :-( -------------------------------- Glad to hear from you. -------------------------------- Thanks, Nina. (Sorry, BTW, about that terrible incident with your neighbor!) ------------------------------ Nina. ==================================== With metta, Howard #96585 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:12 pm Subject: Buddha Dhamma is beyond theory. truth_aerator Hello Robert, Ken and all, > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: >Your use of the world 'theoretical' looks very much like what I am >referring to as 'intellectual' knowledge. It comes from reading a >book or listening to a Dhamma talk, but has no power to liberate one >from suffering. The question is how is this 'theoretical' >understanding is transformed into truth that liberates. > In the meantime, there is the danger of this merely becoming a >'view' >and an object of attachment. That is why it is good, to a >certain >extent, to practice mindfulness of your moment to moment >experience >with openness and spaciousness to see what is there, not >necessarily >what theory has prepared you to see. > > Regards, > > Robert A. The Buddha dhamma is atakkavacara = beyond logic or reasoning. In various suttas one is asked to: "putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that: ... " - SN 12.68 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.068.than.html Regarding "wrong views". They are subset of Clinging. Cause of clinging is craving. With cessation of craving, clinging (to self views, wrong views, rites & rituals, sensuality) ceases. "There are these four kinds of clinging: clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rituals and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self. With the arising of craving there is the arising of clinging. With the cessation of craving there is the cessation of clinging." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html So the practice MUST be aimed at step by step cessation of ALL craving. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.083.than.html With metta, Alex #96586 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:55 pm Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats epsteinrob Hi Ken. Jumping in for a moment. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: ... I know that the ariyan's supramundane understanding is vastly greater than the beginner's intellectual understanding, but even so, the two are the same cetasika (panna ) aren't they? Do you believe that panna is of the intellect, that it is a form of intellectual knowing? Earlier you used the analogy of learning to build a boat by reading a book. Do you think that anyone has ever built a real boat by reading a book? This intellectual knowledge may be a prerequisite to building a boat, but by itself this form of intellectual knowledge is practically useless. What can the book tell you about how to hold and bend the wood, to seal it so that it doesn't leak, to put the pieces together with skill and to design the entire thing so that you don't wind up with a piece of raft attached to a bowl by the time you get to the end? You not only need some form of apprenticeship and mentorship from someone who has built a boat before, but you need years of practical hands-on experience practicing and perfecting each skill of design, carpentry, wood-curing, and other building skills before you can even look at building a boat. So the idea that book-knowledge will teach you a skill of this kind is ludicrous. There are things you can learn from books, and if you had ten years you might even be able to build a boat from a book, step by step, but it is not the optimal or even the sensible way to attempt such a task. Despite the critiques of meditation in this group, meditation is the equivalent of practicing boat-building, rather than just reading about it. Of course you can also practice boat-building in "everyday life," as a piece of wood or a plank or board happens to come along in your everyday activities - you can grab it and do a little work on it and eventually it will all add up to a completed boat. Just kidding...... I realize that discerning the reality of the momentary dhamma *is* something that can occur in everyday life, whereas boat-building obviously cannot. But I hope the main point is clear. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #96587 From: "Robert" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:57 pm Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats avalo1968 Hello Scott, Since I resolved long ago to forgo further discussions about 'doing or not doing' I will only thank you for your comments and leave it at that. Regards, Robert A. #96588 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:50 pm Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats truth_aerator Hello Ken, Robert E., and all, > "Robert Epstein" wrote: >Do you believe that panna is of the intellect, that it is a form of >intellectual knowing? It is *not* intellectual understanding. If panna = intellectual understanding than many scholars would have been Arahants with full discriminative knowledges. > Earlier you used the analogy of learning to build a boat by reading >a book. Do you think that anyone has ever built a real boat by >reading a book? A good simile is learning how to swim. It is one thing to read and watch movies about swimming, while being on dry land. It is quite different to actually swim and learn the skill! I've heard about this methodology where you put a baby in the water and have it attempt to swim on its own, (of course under the adult's supervision!) >Despite the critiques of meditation in this group, meditation is >the equivalent of practicing boat-building, rather than just reading It is practicing of letting go of all craving and attachments like practicing to swim as to not drown in the sea of defilements. At first it is very imperfect, but later on, as one gains more SKILL, one can switch off defilements more and more until they are eradicated forever. >Just kidding...... I realize that discerning the reality of the >momentary dhamma *is* something that can occur in everyday life, >whereas boat-building obviously cannot. But I hope the main point is >clear. > > Best, > Robert E. One can practice mindfulness meditation during the daily activities as well. With metta, Alex #96589 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:58 pm Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats kenhowardau Hi Robert A, --------- <. . .> KH: > > I would like to know what you mean by "the intuitive understanding that liberates." I know that the ariyan's supramundane understanding is vastly greater than the beginner's intellectual understanding, but even so, the two are the same cetasika (panna ) aren't they? > > RA: > I use the word intuitive to distinguish it from intellectual understanding. Generally, intuitive understanding relies not on reasoning, but on direct seeing. Nyanatiloka refers to " that intuitive knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and the realization of Nibbana, and which consists in the penetration of the impermanency, misery, and impersonality of all forms of existence." <. . .> ---------- Yes, I think we are on the same track here. As I understand it, right intellectual understanding (pariyati) may be less potent than other forms of right understanding (paripatti and pativedha) but all three forms of understanding are, nonetheless, the functions of the same cetasika, panna. When panna takes as its object the *concept* of a paramattha dhamma it knows something of what is meant by that concept. For example it might know that the term "visible object" refers to a fleeting, conditioned material phenomenon that arises at the eye door and can be directly experienced by seeing consciousness. When panna takes an *actual* visible rupa as its object, it can know the same kinds of thing about that object but, this time, directly. When *fully developed panna* takes an actual visible rupa as its object it knows the same kinds of thing again, but it does so with such certainty (or intensity) that it turns consciousness away from all conditioned reality and turns it towards Nibbana, the unconditioned reality. Ken H #96590 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:19 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats kenhowardau Hi Robert Ep, ---------- KH: > > I know that the ariyan's supramundane understanding is vastly greater than the beginner's intellectual understanding, but even so, the two are the same cetasika (panna ) aren't they? > > RE: > Do you believe that panna is of the intellect, that it is a form of intellectual knowing? ----------- Which absolute reality are you referring to as "the intellect." Or are you referring to a conventional reality? If it is the latter then we are going to have a hard time communicating. Realities and concepts do not mix. Leaving aside concepts of "intellect" I would describe panna as a cetasika. It is a cetasika that sometimes arises with [kusala] citta. When it does so it experiences the same object that the citta is experiencing. If the object is a concept then panna is experiencing a concept: if it is a reality then panna experiences a reality. In the former cases, I would say there was "intellectual" knowing, and in the latter, "direct" knowing. ----------------------------------- RE: > Earlier you used the analogy of learning to build a boat by reading a book. Do you think that anyone has ever built a real boat by reading a book? This intellectual knowledge may be a prerequisite to building a boat, but by itself this form of intellectual knowledge is practically useless. What can the book tell you about how to hold and bend the wood, to seal it so that it doesn't leak, to put the pieces together with skill and to design the entire thing so that you don't wind up with a piece of raft attached to a bowl by the time you get to the end? You not only need some form of apprenticeship and mentorship from someone who has built a boat before, but you need years of practical hands-on experience practicing and perfecting each skill of design, carpentry, wood-curing, and other building skills before you can even look at building a boat. So the idea that book-knowledge will teach you a skill of this kind is ludicrous. There are things you can learn from books, and if you had ten years you might even be able to build a boat from a book, step by step, but it is not the optimal or even the sensible way to attempt such a task. ---------------------- OK, I can agree with all of that. Might I just say, by the way, that my remark about books was in response to Alex's assertion that we didn't get understanding through reading books. Generally speaking, understanding is exactly what we do get from reading books, isn't it? That's why technical books are written in the first place. But back to your point: yes, I agree that right understanding of the Ariyan Eightfold Path is developed gradually through extensive reading, listening, considering, discussing and application - of the true Dhamma. But I am not sure that was exactly your point. You may have been suggesting something else. -------------------------------- RE: > Despite the critiques of meditation in this group, meditation is the equivalent of practicing boat-building, rather than just reading about it. Of course you can also practice boat-building in "everyday life," as a piece of wood or a plank or board happens to come along in your everyday activities - you can grab it and do a little work on it and eventually it will all add up to a completed boat. Just kidding...... I realize that discerning the reality of the momentary dhamma *is* something that can occur in everyday life, whereas boat-building obviously cannot. But I hope the main point is clear. -------------------------------- Actually, it is not quite clear. By my analysis "practising boatbuilding" would be equivalent to the last of the factors I mentioned, "application." In the other three factors panna knew *in theory* that there were conditioned dhammas arising now. And it knew in theory that those conditioned dhammas constituted the entire reality of the universe. In a moment of "application" however, panna sees *directly* what it has learnt in theory. It directly experiences a conditioned dhamma that has arisen now to become the object of consciousness (arammana). You, I think, mean something very different by "practice." I think you mean (for example) directing one's focus to a cool sensation on the skin: or concentrating on a sharp pain in the knee etc. But that would be awareness of concepts, not awareness of conditioned dhammas (satipatthana). Focusing on concepts can be fine in itself, but it has no connection with satipatthana. A boat builder may practise ballet dancing during his spare time, and that will do him no harm. However, if thinks that ballet dancing is a form of boat building then he is headed for trouble. :-) Ken H #96591 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:44 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > > Hi Ken > > YOur message came through as usual - normal in all respects! > > Thanks Ann! Yes, it came through all right on my computer as well. On the Preview page my messages contain lines of about fifty words each. I wouldn't want them showing up on the list that way. (Some other people's messages have shown up that way in the past (although maybe that was only on my computer.(?))) I miss the Preview page! It used to help me spot typos. It will still work normally if I switch to "Rich-text" but Jon and Sarah would prefer us not to experiment with such new-fangled innovations. They have caused problems in the past. Ken H #96592 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:09 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats avalo1968 Hello Ken, Thank you for your elaboration. Regards, Robert A. #96593 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:48 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats epsteinrob Hi Ken. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > You, I think, mean something very different by "practice." I think you mean (for example) directing one's focus to a cool sensation on the skin: or concentrating on a sharp pain in the knee etc. But that would be awareness of concepts, not awareness of conditioned dhammas (satipatthana). > > Focusing on concepts can be fine in itself, but it has no connection with satipatthana. A boat builder may practise ballet dancing during his spare time, and that will do him no harm. However, if thinks that ballet dancing is a form of boat building then he is headed for trouble. :-) Why would you consider focusing on an actual sensation a concept? That is the opposite of what it is by any measure. It seems that the dhamma philosophy somehow has it that focusing on words in a book which is necessarily conceptual is focusing on knowing reality, while focusing on the actual occurence of a real sensation or other occurence in real life is a concept. This appears to be completely backwards. Best, Robert E. =============================== = = = = = = = = = = = = #96594 From: "colette" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:01 pm Subject: "we're from France" SNL, Saturday Night Live ksheri3 Hi Alex, I'm in a playful mood so I'll take a stab at this giberish you speak of in the first paragraph and then take it on the wing as I plod through the eniterty of the post. Lest just put forth the reality that: SANSKRIT and PALI do not mix; or that Sanskrit and Pali are completely distinguishable by the characteristics of WEALTH. <...> What? Am I stricking upon some interesting concepts and since they are my concepts and my magik, well then, SORRY THEIVES this is my OPERATION. We can all easily go to siberia and ask of the people "what is the THEIVES WORLD", but I'm sure that the Yakusa will be able to define it instantly. <...> "IF YOU LISTEN TO FOOLS. THE MOB RULES" Ronnie James Dio of Black Sabbath. What is a mob? <...> But what do I know? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: <...> > The Buddha dhamma is atakkavacara = beyond logic or reasoning. > > In various suttas one is asked to: > "putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that: ... " - SN 12.68 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.068.than.html > > Regarding "wrong views". They are subset of Clinging. Cause of clinging is craving. With cessation of craving, clinging (to self views, wrong views, rites & rituals, sensuality) ceases. <...> #96595 From: "colette" Date: Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:56 pm Subject: Misinterpretations ksheri3 "Koans are NOT answered." Genjo Marinello Good Morning "upasaka Howard", The moderators have put together an interesting string of thoughts. One might just think that they can jump from one "brain" to another "brain" but then the Quantum Physics scientists out there in Winfield IL USA would get upset having to go back and re-configure so much work with CERN that they invested upon "their hallucinations". > Hi Howard, > thanks. I was thinking of you and your computer, and it is so empty > without you. > ------------------------------ GREAT GAD-ZOOKS, and HEAVENS TO MERGATROID, are you, Nina, suggesting that each and every character generated by some crt somewhere is Howard? Lets look at the movie ENEMY OF THE STATE and find that when the 'subject' goes looking from "brill" he gets into a cab and discloses the information that "brill" is the person he's looking for. The INTELLIGENCE AGENT askes Will Smith, on the roof top of a downtown building if he initiated the statement of "brill" or if the other person mentioned the name "brill" first. HERE it is discovered that Will Smith was subjected to a charade by some un-KNOWN competitors. WHY IS HIS COMPUTER PART OF GOTTA GO. COLETTE What I'm getting at is that Nina, there is no way that you can be sure that you are speaking with Hoard unless you live in the same room, prison, cell, behind a great wall, whatever. <....> #96596 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:56 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats kenhowardau Hi Robert Ep, ------------- KH: > > > You, I think, mean something very different by "practice." I think you mean (for example) directing one's focus to a cool sensation on the skin: or concentrating on a sharp pain in the knee etc. But that would be awareness of concepts, not awareness of conditioned dhammas (satipatthana). <. . .> RE: > Why would you consider focusing on an actual sensation a concept? That is the opposite of what it is by any measure. -------------- A sensation of coolness when (for example) a breeze gently touches the skin is a common experience. We don't need a Buddha to tell us there is a sensation of coolness at those times. The same applies to a sharp pain in the knee etc. These are things that belong in the conventionally known world. They are concepts. Some people will tell you that a sensation of coolness is an indication that the absolute reality, body consciousness, is presently experiencing the tactile object known as temperature. And they say if you concentrate you will see how temperature arises, interacts with body-consciousness, and falls away. But that is nonsense, surely. There are all types of body consciousnesses every second of the day. (Except in deep sleep.) They are mixed up with all the other kinds of consciousnesses (seeing, hearing, bavangha etc), each arising one at a time, persisting for less than a billionth of a second and completely falling away forever. A sensation of coolness on the skin is no real indication of any particular dhamma. And most of the time we don't even know which type of dhamma we are talking about. Do we think we are being aware of 'temperature' - a rupa - or is it 'feeling' - a cetasika? If it is feeling, is it bodily feeling or mental feeling? Pleasant or unpleasant? Some people might find the cool breeze experience pleasant, others might find it mildly annoying, or even worse. Under hypnotism, for example, a cool breeze could be hot and painful. It's all concepts! :-) ------------------------------ RE: > It seems that the dhamma philosophy somehow has it that focusing on words in a book which is necessarily conceptual is focusing on knowing reality, while focusing on the actual occurence of a real sensation or other occurence in real life is a concept. This appears to be completely backwards. ------------------------------- We simply need to learn the difference between concepts and realities. That is when Abhidhamma starts to make sense to us. Ken H #96597 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:14 am Subject: Focused and Fused! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: These 7 States are Focused on one single object: Nibbâna! The Awareness Link to Awakening is foremost, in the sense of rolling overall like a wheel. The Investigation Link to Awakening is the chief, in the sense of greatness like an elephant. The Energy Link to Awakening is the prime, in the sense of being swift & strong like a horse. The Joy Link to Awakening is vital, in the sense of giving brilliant radiance like a jewel. The Tranquillity Link to Awakening, is primary in the sense of soothing like a mild woman. The Concentration Link to Awakening, is best in the sense of giving wealth like a treasurer. The Equanimity Link to Awakening is supreme, in the sense of ballance like a good advisor. These seven links to awakening are thus like the 7 treasures of a wheel-turning monarch. They awaken beings into the state of entering the stream leading to the deathless NibbÄna . They further awaken beings into the state of returning here as human only one more time. They furthermore awaken beings into the state of never returning here as human again. They finally fully awaken beings into the state of Arahatship by complete Enlightenment! When these seven states coincide simultaneously; fused into the same assemblage; all being joined focused on only one single and same object: NibbÄna , then Awakening occurs... This 7-fold supreme culmination is the final Enlightenment!!! Yeah... Awakening is 7 mental qualities focused on 1 single object... <...> Awakening is a phase transition of consciousness... Local to => Universal + Discrete to => Continuous!!! Enlightenment transcends both time and space & is thus inexpressible! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Focused and Fused! #96598 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Space (Sarah's notes 1) sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >At last I reread your articles on space and now I find them clearer. You are very careful. You also refer to all the texts. ... S: Thank you for mentioning this and I'm glad it's clearer. I hope to revise it sometime as it includes some repetitions etc. ... >I took note of Kh Sujin's explanation that unconditioned space is not a concept. I found her explanations clear. I received a text in Thai from Kh Kamphan, with quotes from Katavatthu commentary. Here I still have a problem. I looked up the English (The Debates Commentary) Ch 6, no 6: .... S: Yes, I remember noticing this before and raising it once with K.Sujin. It's not a problem, however - the first is referring to paricchheda akasa rupa (the conditioned space rupa), the second as the object of jhana (a concept) and the third to a concept of open space, as I recall. ... >You mention also flying through space as a concept. But now I still find it a difficult subject. ... S: Yes, we have lots of concepts related to space. These concepts are different from the unconditioned paramattha dhamma of akasa rupa. As we know, there can be concepts or the real and concepts of the unreal. .... >I was not interested at first since it does not help me to understand the present moment. But it still hinders when something is not clear. ... S: Yes, we can misunderstand and also, we'd all prefer that what we write or say is correct. ... >Does Kh Kamphan understand English? I can read his Thai but not type in Thai. ... S: No, he doesn't understand any English at all. Metta, Sarah ======== #96599 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >Sorry I haven't been around lately. I've been pulled away by the "unreal world" "out there." ha ha. ... S: Ah, but you can't escape the realities and conditions that pull you back, ha ha:-) ... --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, sarah abbott wrote: >>S: ....It's the right understanding that judges and knows the confusion vs non-confusion, the wisdom vs the ignorance. Again, by conditions... Once there is the understanding of dhammas arising by conditions, no more doubt or confusion about them... .... R:> Suddenly occurs to me - why would the process of deluded arising of samsara - eg, impermenent cittas arising in succession - give rise to panna? .... S: It isn't the delusion or the fact that cittas are impermanent that gives rise to panna. Panna arises by accumulations for panna and it is the panna which sees the delusion and impermanent dhammas for what they are. So the panna arises *in spite of* the many, many moments of delusion, not because of it, except indirectly in that ignorance is what leads to the continuation of samsara. ... R:> And how can the impermenanent cittas realize panna at all? ... S: The other way round. Panna (also an impermanent dhamma) realizes impermanent cittas and other dhamma for what they are. So panna can understand the characteristic of panna, just as it can understand the characteristic of any other dhamma. .... R:> I realize this takes place, but it seems strange. When you look at the whole process of change, perception, etc. as being based on delusion that set the wheel of illusion in motion in the first place and then keeps going subject to conditions [almost forever,] it doesn't really make sense that the citta-system can "wake up" at all. .... S: Rather than thinking of the 'citta-system' waking-up, I think it's more helpful to think of occasional moments of panna shining the light on the various dhammas appearing. This is why the Buddha's Teachings go against the norm. ... > ... > >>S: And a little later... > > "...the individual whose mind is distracted, even upon being spoken to when all other (conditions) have been satisfied, states "(Such) was not heard by me, please state it again". ... R:> Yes; and it's fun when the ancient scriptures make such a contemporary comment, yet sad that it's been around so long... ..... S: Each generation thinks it discovers something new or wakes-up in some way....but it's all been said and done for aeons. I agree that it's amazing how contemporary some of the ancient texts sound. Metta, Sarah ========= =========== * Howard's signature blocks: == A change in anything is a change in everything (Anonymous) == Entrances to holiness are everywhere. The possibility of ascent is all the time, even at unlikely times and through unlikely places. There is no place without the Presence. (From Mishkan T'filah, the new Reform prayerbook) == He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none - such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. (From the Uraga Sutta) == Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains "going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it" and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible. (From the Avarana Sutta) == Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream. (From the Diamond Sutra) == When knowing what is to be known, he doesn't construe an [object as] known. He doesn't construe an unknown. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-known. He doesn't construe a knower. (The Buddha, speaking of himself in the Kalakarama Sutta) == See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance. (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) == Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. (From the Sacitta Sutta) == "Rouse yourself! Sit up! What good is there in sleeping? For those afflicted by disease (suffering), struck by the arrow (craving), what sleep is there? "Rouse yourself! Sit up! Resolutely train yourself to attain peace. Do not let the king of death, seeing you are careless, lead you astray and dominate you. "Go beyond this clinging, to which devas and men are attached, and (the pleasures) they seek. Do not waste your opportunity. When the opportunity has passed they sorrow when consigned to Niraya-hell. "Negligence is a taint, and so is the (greater) negligence growing from it. By earnestness and understanding withdraw the arrow (of sensual passions)." (From the Utthana Sutta) == "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' (From AN 2.19) ==