#98800 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:32 pm Subject: Antw.: [dsg] Immediate rebirth, no 1. nilovg Dear Chris and friends, On Rob K's forum there is a long article about this subject, containing many posts http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php? showtopic=148. I just quote part, beginning with a post by Sarah. Sarah Abbott writes: “The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state of existence and there are many references to this term in the commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga VIII. 2 where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You can read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation of Kv. “ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22272 Sarah Abbott writes: Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy), Bk V111,2,”Of an Intermediate State’, discusses in detail why the proposition “that there is an intermdiate state of existence” is not valid. In summary from the commentary: QUOTE “Some (as, for instance, the Pubbaseliyas and Sammitiyas), by a careless acceptation of the Sutta-phrase - ‘completed existence within the interval’ - held that there is an interm stage where a being awaits reconception for a week or longer. The counter-argument is based on the Exalted One’s dictum that there are three states of becoming only - the Kama-, the Rupa-, and the Arupa-worlds . And it is because of that dictum that the opponent (in so far as he is orthodox) has to deny so many of the questions.” Also from the commentary: QUOTE “.........Here the sense is this: If there be such a state as an intermediate state of becoming, then it must be a ‘five-mode becoming’ etc., such as Kama-life, and so forth. Let us then ask you: “Do you identify the intermediate state with either the Kama-life, or Rupa-life, or Arupa-life?” All these the opponent denies, because he would not admit such things. “The expressions “either of the Kama-life” and so forth have been brought forth in order that, if there be an intermediate state, it must be between these states of becoming, like an interval between two boundaries. The opponent who would not admit such things, denies all these questions. Thus he refuses the Sakavadin’s “indeed” simply for his view, but not in accordance with the doctrine.” User is offlineProfile CardPM http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24939 Sarah Abbott writes: I’m using Peter Masefield’s translation of the Udana (Ud) and Udana commentary (Ud-a), both published by the PTS for these quotes. The on- line sutta can be found at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khudd...ana/ud1-10.html As you reminded me, before we discussed a little about intermediate states (antaraabhava) which are often referred to in other Buddhist traditions as ‘bardo’. I quoted from the Abhidhamma text, the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy) in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18195.html In Bk V111,2,”Of an Intermediate State’, the Kathavatthu discusses in detail why the proposition “that there is an intermdiate state of existence” is not valid. I don’t think there is any difference of understanding between us here or elsewhere, Connie, but as it is a common misperception about the Buddha’s teaching, I’m using your comment as an excuse add more detail from the Ud and Ud-a. ***** The Buddha encourages Bahiya to understand the objects experienced through the sense doors and the six classes of consciousness. QUOTE “ ‘With respect to the seen...merely the seen (di.t.the di.t.thamatta.m)’: with respect to a sight-base (ruupaayatane) (there will be) merely that seen by means of eye-consciousness.” The Buddha is stressing that mere dhammas exist. A little later in the Ud-a we read: QUOTE “For, in this connection, the sight-base is called ‘the seen’ (di.t.tha.m)in the sense that it is something that is to be beheld, (as is) eye-consciousness, together with the consciousness associated with the doors therefore, in the sense of seeing, both of these, occurring (as they do) in accordance with conditions, being solely and merely dhammas; there is, in this connection, neither a doer nor one who causes things to be done, as a result of which, since (the seen) is impermanent in the sense of being non-existent after having been, dukkha in the sense of being oppressed by way of rise and fall, not-self in the sense of proceeding uncontrolled, whence the opportunity for excitement and so on with respect thereto on the part of one who is wise?...” This is important, because, ideas of intermediate states are often wrapped up in an idea of self or control. The Buddha says a little later in the sutta: QUOTE “When you, Bahiya, are not therein (tato tva.m Baahiya na tattha), then you, Bahiya, will be neither here nor there nor, additionally, in both (tato tva.m Baahiya nev’idha na hura.m na ubhayamantarena)- this alone is the end of dukkha.” Ud-a makes it clear that the first few words refer to how having fully understood the deep meaning of the previous words, along with path-fruition, Bahiya ‘will be neither excited with that lust, blemished with that anger, nor deluded with that delusion, then, or alternatively therefore, you [Bahiya] will not be therein, in that seen and so on, you will not be attached, established, either in that seen or in that heard, sensed and cognised, by way of craving, conceit and (wrong) view thinking ‘This is mine, this I am, this is for me the self’.” In otherwords, arahantship and parinibbana at the end of his life, the end of all dukkha. Ud-a continues: QUOTE “It is, moreover, wrong on the part of those who seek reference to an intermediate becoming (antaraabhava.m) by seizing upon the phrase ubhayamantarena [in both]. For the existence of an intermediate becoming is altogether rejected in the Abhidhamma. ....Furthermore, those who still say that there is an intermediate becoming by seizing unmethodically upon the meaning of such sutta-passages as ‘An antaraaparinibbaayin’ (eg Aiv70ff) and ‘Those who are become or those seeking becoming’(Khp8) are to be rebuffed with ‘there is no (such thing)’, since the meaning of the former sutta passage is that he is an antaraaparinibbaayin since he attains parinibbaana (parinibbaayati) by way of remainderles defilement-parinibbana through attaining the topmost path midway (antaraa)[in lifespan]...., whilst the meaning of the latter (sutta-passage) is that those who, in the former word, are spoken of as ‘those who are become’ (bhuutaa), are those in whom the asavas have been destroyed, being those who are merely become, (but) who will not become (again, (whereas the latter,) being the antithesis thereof, (and spoken of as) ‘those seeking becoming’ (sambhavesino) since it is becoming (sambhava.m) that they seek (esenti), are sekhas and puthujjanas on account of the fetters giving rise to becoming not having been abandoned....” --------- Nina. #98801 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:58 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (19-21), and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, Sutta 19. Walshe DN 33.1.11(19) 'Four ways of going wrong (agata-gamanaani): One goes wrong through desire (chanda), hatred, delusion, fear. (Cattaari agatigamanaani - chandaagati.m gacchati, dosaagati gacchati, mohaagati.m gacchati, bhayaagati.m gacchati.) -------- N: We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (II, 17, Book of the fours,Ch II, §7 : No-bourn or agati refers to an unpleasant result of evil deeds even in this life. The co states that this is elsewhere explained in detail. Agatigamanaani vitthaaritaaneva. -------------------- sutta 20. Walshe DN 33.1.11(20) 'Four arousals of craving: Craving arises in a monk because of robes, alms, lodging, being and non-being (iti-bhavaabhava- hetu). (Cattaaro ta.nhuppaadaa - ciivarahetu vaa, aavuso, bhikkhuno ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati; pi.n.dapaatahetu vaa, aavuso, bhikkhuno ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati; senaasanahetu vaa, aavuso, bhikkhuno ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati; itibhavaabhavahetu vaa, aavuso, bhikkhuno ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati.) Co: Because of craving he thinks, ‘I will receive a pleasing robe’. Because of robes he will have rebirth in different existences. subco: the term bhavaabhava: existence, nonexistence is explained grammatically with another example: fruits and non-fruits: phalaaphala, which acquires the meaning of all sorts of fruits. The a- infix denotes repetition in compounds, accumulation or variety. Thus, all sorts of rebirths is meant in the sutta. --------- The co mentions craving for oil, honey and ghee. These are supports for the sick (gilaanapaccayo). The four aspects of ariyan lineage, ariyava.msa, are taught for the sake of abandoning these four cravings. ------- N: As we have read in sutta 9, the first three aspects of the ariyan lineage are contentment of the monk with the requisites of robes, food and lodging. The fourth aspect is relinquishment (pahaana) and mental development (bhaavanaa). This is actually having delight (ramati) in abandoning akusala and delight in developing kusala. ----------- Sutta 21: Walshe DN 33.1.11(21) 'Four kinds of progress: (a) painful progress with slow comprehension, (b) painful progress with quick comprehension, (c) pleasant progress with slow comprehension, (d) pleasant progress with quick comprehension. (Catasso pa.tipadaa - dukkhaa pa.tipadaa dandhaabhi~n~naa, dukkhaa pa.tipadaa khippaabhi~n~naa, sukhaa pa.tipadaa dandhaabhi~n~naa, sukhaa pa.tipadaa khippaabhi~n~naa.) ----------- N: The Co states that this has been explained already. The ‘Gradual Sayings” (II, 150), Book of the Fours, Ch XVII, § 490. The Expositor (I, p. 243) gives an explanation of these four with regard to the attainment of jhaana. The progress is painful when the hindrances are strong, and it is pleasant when they are weak. Someone is of slow comprehension who takes long to attain jhaana, and someone who is of quick comprehension does not take long to attain jhaana. We read further on in connection with calm and insight: The “Dispeller of Delusion” (II, p. 166) refers to these four ways with regard to lokuttara citta. We read: Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:03 am Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) sprlrt Hi Jon, > > Thanks also for your comments on the translation of "manasikarosii'' as "practises" rather than "is considering". I think you could well be right on this. > Yes, I've noticed that many pàli translators don't use the english present continuous that much... See you and Sarah on Friday in Viareggio. Alberto #98803 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) nilovg Dear Alberto, I hope you will give us an account on your Dhamma talks, that will be very nice. Nina. Op 29-jun-2009, om 10:03 heeft sprlrt het volgende geschreven: > See you and Sarah on Friday in Viareggio. > Alberto #98804 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 10 Paramis nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 28-jun-2009, om 23:14 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Are the 10 paramis include in Theravada tradition? > Are there any texts that are pointing 10 paramis? > What about Jatakas and commentaries to Jatakas? ------- N: the “Basket of Conduct”, the Cariyåpitaka, and its Commentary. The Cariyåpitaka is part of the Khuddaka Nikaaya. Also in the Jatakas and commentaries. I quote: The Jåtakas, the ‘Birth Stories”, deal with all the excellent qualities the Buddha developed during his former lives, although not exclusively with the ten perfections. The “Basket of Conduct”, the Cariyåpiìaka, Khuddhaka Nikåya (Minor Anthologies III), describes the perfections and relates how they were developed. The Commentary to this work, written by Dhammapåla in the sixth century, explains them more systematically and in detail. They are also described in an abridged version in the subcommentary (tíka) to the “Brahmajåla Sutta”, of the “Middle Length Sayings”(I, no. 1). The ten perfections are also mentioned in the “Chronicle of Buddhas”, Buddhavaósa (Minor Anthologies III). -------- Nina. #98805 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:45 am Subject: Antw.: [dsg] Immediate rebirth, no 2 nilovg Dear Chris, Alex and friends, --------- Op 28-jun-2009, om 16:37 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: And the suttas that deal with 7 kinds of Anagamis. Some achieve arhatship in-between the two lives. ------------ I quote from a post by Suan: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/64835 Dear Scott D, Sarah, Nina, Michael Kalyaano, Mike N, Robert K and all How are you? Scott quoted Bhikkhu Bodhi as writing: QUOTE "...If we understand the term antaraaparinibbaayi literally, as it seems we should, it then means one who attains Nibbaana in the interval between two lives, perhaps while existing in a subtle body in the intermediate state...Though the Theravaadin proponents argue against this interpretation of antaraaparinibbaayi...,the evidence from the suttas leans strongly in its favour..." (Note 65, Bojjha.ngasa.myutta, Sa.myutta Nikaaya, pp. 1902-1903.)" The above statement of Bhikkhu Bodhi was unfortunately wrong because it failed to do justice to the Buddha's own definition of the term "antaraaparinibbaayi". The Buddha uses the term "antaraaparinibbaayi" as a technical term reserved for an Anaagaamii, a Non-returner. So this term does not permit us from interpreting outside the original Theravada meaning described and defined by the Buddha in the Pali Suttam Texts. Before I quote the Buddha's description of this technical term, I would like to make a brief comment on the Pali word "antara" whose meaning is merely 'between'. As its English equivalent can be used for any two things or two events or two qualities or two times or any two states, the word 'antara' can also be used. This means that the prefix 'antara' does not mean 'between two lives' as Bhikkhu Bodhi claimed to understand the term literally. Scott also wrote in reply to Sarah: QUOTE "It seems more common for him to note when he thinks the commentaries have missed the boat; he does, however, seem to make full use of the commentaries. This is why I favour his translations of suttas over others." Scott, from your above statement, do you have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Samyuttanikaaya? I think Sarah has it. If Scott or Sarah has that translation, can you post a relevant passage of it here in reply to this post as I am going to provide the Pali quote from Samyuttanikkaya where the Buddha describes and defines the term 'antaraaparinibbaayi'. To make your copy chore easier, I will chose the passage from a very short Suttam only. :-) Here comes the Suttam quote. ----------------------------- QUOTE 6. Dutiyaphalasuttam 536. ".. .Katame satta phalaa sattaanisamsaa? Di.t.theva dhamme pa.tikacca aî…¬am aaraadheti, no ce di.t.theva dhamme pa.tikacca aî…¬am aaraadheti, atha mara.nakaale aî…¬am aaraadheti. No ce di.t.theva dhamme aî…¬am aaraadheti, no ce mara.nakaale aî…¬am aaraadheti, atha paannam orambhaagiyaanam samyojanaanam parikkhayaa antaraaparinibbaayii hoti,..." -------------------------------- The above Suttam can be found as Section 536, the Sixth Suttam under 7. Bodhipakkhiyavaggo, 4. Indriyasamyuttam, Mahavaggo, Samyuttanikaayo. With best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw ------- N: I give the PTS translation, of S. V, 285: Fruits (b): Monks, there are four bases of psychic power... It is by cultivating and making much of these four that seven fruits, seven profits may be looked for. What are the seven? In this very life, previously, one establishes realization: and if not in this very life, previously, at any rate at the moment of death. But if one do not so then, still by having worn down the five fetters of the lower sort, one wins release midway or, failing that, he does so by reduction of his time. Failing that, he passes away without much trouble: failing that, with some trouble: or, striving upstream, he is reborn in the Pure Abodes. ------- Nina. #98806 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 10 Paramis szmicio Dear Nina, Thank you for your answer. Somebody said that Theravada is only brahma-vihara oriented, so I said that is not only the brahma-vihara, but also sobhana-dhamma(wonderful things)that are cultivated. Am I right? My best wishes Lukas > > Are the 10 paramis include in Theravada tradition? > > Are there any texts that are pointing 10 paramis? > > What about Jatakas and commentaries to Jatakas? > ------- > N: the "Basket of Conduct", the Cariyåpitaka, and its Commentary. > The Cariyåpitaka is part of the Khuddaka Nikaaya. > Also in the Jatakas and commentaries. > I quote: The Jåtakas, the `Birth Stories", deal with all the > excellent qualities the Buddha developed during his former lives, > although not exclusively with the ten perfections. The "Basket of > Conduct", the Cariyåpiìaka, Khuddhaka Nikåya (Minor Anthologies III), > describes the perfections and relates how they were developed. The > Commentary to this work, written by Dhammapåla in the sixth century, > explains them more systematically and in detail. They are also > described in an abridged version in the subcommentary (tíka) to the > "Brahmajåla Sutta", of the "Middle Length Sayings"(I, no. 1). The ten > perfections are also mentioned in the "Chronicle of Buddhas", > Buddhavaósa (Minor Anthologies III). > #98807 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:36 am Subject: To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) sprlrt Hi Mik > > Still, pa~n~natti can't be the base of satipa.t.thaana even in the former case (of 'hearing the truths'), would it? Not sure what you mean by base, but I think that hearing/sutam (paññatti) + proper considering/yoniso manasikàra (kusala ñanasampayutta cittas), the two together making up pariyatti, are the right and required conditions for the arising of patipatti/satipatthàna, kusala ñanasampayutta citta again, but with a more developed (i.e. accumulated through pariyatti) pañña, sati and the other path factors. >I would think that what would condition the arising of satipa.t.thaana (with yoniso manasikaara) in this case wouldn't be the concepts expressed (even though true) but rather the 'truths' (dhammas) referred to by vacana. Does this sound right to you? > As K. Sujin often says dhammas arise and fall all the time, unknowingly without pañña. Alberto #98808 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:32 am Subject: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, all - Very briefly, here are a few thoughts on this issue: 1) The gandhabba, in the sense of a being-to-be-born could simply be a namarupic stream at the end of its life in the process of dying, or it could be a namarupic stream that has died but not yet been reborn. There is nothing that seems to point to a definite answer on this. 2) In the three-lives reading of dependent origination, 'bhava' COULD refer to an intermediate state (of "becoming"), a transitional state between death in one realm of experience and birth into another. 3) I see little relevance of this matter to the core of the Dhamma, namely the permanent release from dukkha. This business is at best tangential to the Dhamma. I see it as one of the smallest simsapa leaves not in the Buddha's hand. With metta, Howard Freedom /Spiritual freedom, as the opposite of this condition of bondage, must therefore mean freedom from lust, hatred, and delusion. When lust, hatred, and delusion are abandoned in a man, cut off at the root so that they no longer remain even in latent form, then a man finds for himself a seat of autonomy from which he can never be dethroned, a position of mastery from which he can never be shaken. Even though he be a mendicant gathering his alms from house to house, he is still a king; even though he be locked behind bars of steel, he is inwardly free. He is now sovereign over his own mind, and as such over the whole universe; for nothing in the universe can take from him that deliverance of heart which is his inalienable possession. He dwells in the world among the things of the world, yet stands in perfect poise above the world's ebb and flow. If pleasant objects come within range of his perception he does not yearn for them, if painful objects come into range he does not recoil from them. He looks upon both with equanimity and notes their rise and fall. Toward the pairs of opposites which keep the world in rotation he is without concern, the cycle of attraction and repulsion he has broken at its base. A lump of gold and a lump of clay are to his eyes the same; praise and scorn are to his ears empty sounds. He abides in the freedom he has won through long and disciplined effort. He is free from suffering, for with the defilements uprooted no more can sorrow or grief fall upon his heart; there remains only that perfect bliss unsullied by any trace of craving./ (Bhikkhu Bodhi, from The Taste of freedom) #98809 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:52 am Subject: Re: e-card from Casperia, nr Rome scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "...And, Scott & Mike, as we sat on a door-step with Jon's computer, trying to access an office's wi-fi, a friendly cat jumped up onto my knee:)." Scott: I think there are certain cats, and these exist in various places throughout the world, which have the accumulations to be attracted to the Dhamma, and in particular, to the ethereal Dhamma emanations ('Dhammanations') common to those radiating out of World Wide Web communication. These are known as 'Dhamma cats.' They are also known to be into jazz. ;-) Oh, here's Miss Little again. Ouch... S: "...Meanwhile, those with different views on practice or meditation (from us), be assured your contributions are as welcome as anyone else's, as far as we're concerned! Please encourage and be patient with each other:)." Scott: May I offer an opinion, which may differ from yours here? Different views are welcome. Being no doubt impatient, I'd encourage shorter posts, less repetition, and less opposition for opposition's sake. To me, its too much like the senseless bickering of opposing religious adherents as it is. Different views are not the problem, as I see it. The style of discussion, its level and tone - these are problematic. How can discussion of opposing views evolve beyond this level, if discussants themselves are not encouraged to do so? I think the list is in the process of evolution and, at least for me, the prospect of a return to the polemics of old is not an appealing one. What are your thoughts about this? Sincerely, Scott. #98810 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 10 Paramis nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 29-jun-2009, om 11:56 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Somebody said that Theravada is only brahma-vihara oriented, so I > said that is not only the brahma-vihara, but also sobhana-dhamma > (wonderful things)that are cultivated. Am I right? ------- N: Not clear what people who say this mean. Hard to answer this. There is also the abhidhamma and satipa.t.thaana. The development of understanding of nama and rupa above all. Nina. #98811 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" nilovg Hi Howard, Op 29-jun-2009, om 14:32 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: 3) I see little relevance of this matter to the core of the Dhamma, namely the permanent release from dukkha. This business is at best tangential to the Dhamma. I see it as one of the smallest simsapa leaves not in the Buddha's hand. ------- N:You are right to question this subject as to its relevance, but, as Sarah wrote: One does not see that rebirth-consciousness succeeding dying- consciousness immediately is just like now: one citta falls away and is then succeeded by the following one. That is the fixed order (niyama) of cittas. Thus, it is important to be clear about this subject. --------- > H:In the three-lives reading of dependent origination, 'bhava' COULD > refer to an intermediate state (of "becoming"), a transitional state > between death in one realm of experience and birth into another. ------- N: See above. We should remember Vis.165: An echo, or its like, supplies The figures here; connectedness By continuity denies Identity and otherness. The Tiika (to Vis. 166) states that sound is the cause of the echo. Sound is the condition, paccaya, for the echo which is the conditioned dhamma, paccayuppanna dhamma. The echo has not come here from the past, but its arising is due to a condition of the past (atiitahetusamuppaada). The Tiika states that all things that arise because of conditions where absent before and after their arising they do not go elsewhere. It is the same with rebirth-consciousness. It was absent before and after it has arisen because of conditions it falls away and does not go elsewhere. And this is also true for the citta arising at this moment: there are conditions for its arising, but it did not come from anywhere nor does it go anywhere. It arises just for a moment and then it falls away to be succeeded by a following citta. If we do not study and be aware of the reality arising at this moment we shall not understand the meaning of the method of identity. When taking this in the wrong way, one may continue to cling to an idea of self who exists. **** Nina. #98812 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:27 am Subject: Re: 10 Paramis szmicio Dear Nina, > Op 29-jun-2009, om 11:56 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > > > Somebody said that Theravada is only brahma-vihara oriented, so I > > said that is not only the brahma-vihara, but also sobhana-dhamma > > (wonderful things)that are cultivated. Am I right? > ------- > N: Not clear what people who say this mean. Hard to answer this. > There is also the abhidhamma and satipa.t.thaana. The development of > understanding of nama and rupa above all. L: OK, Nina, thanks, thats only that what I wanted to ask. I have my own opinion about Theravada, and that's all changes constantly. Maybe for some time i will talk to mahajanist and rise some questions to them. Besause they see the development of satipatthana as inferior, and they called it hinayaja, and I really dont understand this. My best wishes Lukas #98813 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Casperia, nr Rome nilovg Dear Scott, Op 29-jun-2009, om 14:52 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > Different views are not the problem, as I see it. The style of > discussion, its level and tone - these are problematic. How can > discussion of opposing views evolve beyond this level, if > discussants themselves are not encouraged to do so? I think the > list is in the process of evolution and, at least for me, the > prospect of a return to the polemics of old is not an appealing one. > > What are your thoughts about this? ------- N: I am thinking of the Bodhisatta: if there are no contrarious persons how could he train himself in patience? He went on purpose near naughty children in the cemetery, to accumulate upekkhaa. We read about the Perfections but now is the time to apply them. Life is short! I would say: everyone has his own style and it is hard to correct others. We can only correct ourselves. Conclusion: endless patience, as much as we can. Of course we fail often enough. We do not mind so much others, but, as Sarah once said: we mind our 'own' citta. Then there is no problem. We read what others write and then we do our best to clear up misunderstandings. We all have misunderstandings about the teachings, nobody is perfect. Nina. #98814 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 10 Paramis nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 29-jun-2009, om 15:27 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Maybe for some time i will talk to mahajanist and rise some > questions to them. Besause they see the development of satipatthana > as inferior, and they called it hinayaja, and I really dont > understand this. ------- N: What a good opportunity to consider for oneself the teachings and what one finds really important. It does not matter what names others use, like hinayana, but we can discuss dhamma. Nina. #98815 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:02 am Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) sprlrt Dear Nina, I've never given a talk in my life, and I doubt I'll give one on Friday, but why don't you and Lodewijk join us, just in case? Alberto > > Dear Alberto, > I hope you will give us an account on your Dhamma talks, that will be > very nice. > Nina. #98816 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:42 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 7. ksheri3 Dear Nina, I'm glad that you accepted my verse and you found it worthy to reply upon. Thank you. Maybe we have some problems with translation of "concepts" but then again maybe we are still together on this single form of myopia. Myopia being nothing more than a focus and, in eventuality, a singlemindedness. > N: Not so. Seeing is naama, colette: gotcha! that works well. ------------ , it sees visible pobject and it can be > > directly known when it appears, colette: okay, lets clarify some facts. You state and I agree that "seeing is naama" a form of naama a condition of naama. From what little I've had the chance to read this is exactly as it should be under the influence of a deity named Maya. This is another well established principle in the Buddhist doctrine: the eye having a consciousnesses and contacting the reflection that it is in contact with. I was suggesting the ACTUAL COGNITION THAT ANOTHER PERSON HAD MADE, and, THAT THE COGNITION WAS ACCEPTED AND NOT TRIVIALIZED NOR BRUSHED OVER. A sentient being cognized that they saw and DESIRED TO EXPERIENCE a light or form of light which they determined as being projected outward. Now, under the condition of a sentient being having this form of experience and gaining support for their representation of this cognition, we, for instance, you and I, as we study the Dharma, et al, we are forced to deal with a world which possesses this potentially true REALITY. While it is possible that it is our own ignorance and delusions that will not allow us to deal with it or to strictly focus on it, we are still engulfed in a sea of sentient beings that uphold this psychology and this cognition. I was/am strictly using the human eye which sees and transmits signals to the mind to cognize) and you made the point that seeing can only occur through the reflection of a visible object, I was raising the potential that the MIND itself IS DOING THE MANIFESTING AND IS DOING THE FORMULATION of a generic name/label without any assistance from any book or any law or any gang or .... The individual that has/had the mind was actually doing the manifestation of that which you spoke of. In this case, your theory falls apart since you would be nothing more than a sideshow for the center stage performer that has the mind which does the cognizing and the manifestation. I was and am simply suggesting that your theory falls apart under the teachings of such schools as the Mind-Only or Yogachara and certainly I am learning such a flood of information on Tantra at this time as I attempt to resolve such miniscule aspects as Time & Space so that I can get on with further study. I figure that it is exactly like the situation I was in dealing with SHUNYATA or SUNYATA. At least a year, probably two, I struggled with such a simplistic term yet only found my own ignorance. Then, after focussing so long and trying so hard, one day, after I had left the topic and was studying elsewheres the Madhyamika just popped up in my mind and was as if a child's story, it was so simple. I guess that I'm simply trying to say that it is we who are doing the CREATION and that NO DEITY EXISTS THAT HAS THE ROLE OF CREATOR. Remember, I have a trophy for IGNORANCE in Buddhism so give me a little lee-way on that one. ;) Most people won't understand my usage especially since those Western "creationists" will totally ignore the fact the I am trying to practice Buddhism and Buddhist esoteric sciences. -------------- > cannot be experienced by seeing, but by the naama that is body- > consciousness. colette: okay, here ya got me. I need to actually meditate and contemplate what you just said. Sure, I can read it and have a gut intuition experience of what you said but you are a deep and well versed colleague so I'll admit IGNORANCE and ask that I be given the chance to actually think about this. What throws me is the application of naama in a sense of body-consciousness. I know there is/are many WEstern phraseologies that can help me better understand your meaning but I try not to depend much on my past Western teachings while I'm learning the Buddhist traditions. That was a good conversation. Thanx for the STIMULATION! toodles, colette #98817 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) nilovg Dear Alberto, Op 29-jun-2009, om 19:02 heeft sprlrt het volgende geschreven: > I've never given a talk in my life, and I doubt I'll give one on > Friday, but why don't you and Lodewijk join us, just in case? ------- N: I meant a report about your informal Dhamma chat with Sarah and Jon when you meet in Viareggio. That will be wonderful. Nina. #98818 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:26 am Subject: Re: e-card from Casperia, nr Rome scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: "I am thinking of the Bodhisatta: if there are no contrarious persons how could he train himself in patience? He went on purpose near naughty children in the cemetery, to accumulate upekkhaa. We read about the Perfections but now is the time to apply them. Life is short!" Scott: These are good points, Nina; I find this an interesting discussion. And there is no need, really, to put oneself anywhere special to find 'contrarious persons' - no shortage of these (look now, you're interacting with one!). Nor can one be sure, should one put oneself in the way of such persons, that upekkhaa finds ground for development. No, I think my point hovers near the day-to-day notion of stylistic comportment on the list. There are a modicum of such requirements that it is only polite to adhere to; a certain way of interacting in discussions which serves to further discussion. I'd say it is fair to suggest that all maintain a certain style on the list. Short posts, one point at a time, restraint of posts consisting of a barrage of links, attempts to focus on a particular point rather than global attempts at proselytism, not repeating a particular point over and over... Although, to be fair, there is a proselyting aspect to the list which, I suppose, is a bit of a magnet for those opposed and, as such, the opposition allows more proselyting from this camp. I guess this is an implicit factor underlying this discussion. From the vantage point of simply having material available to use as a forum in which to offer the accepted view, any sort of opposing view, no matter the style, will do, I suppose. ...Nevertheless, I'm suggesting that, despite the opportunity for the arising of patience, certain minimum requirements are still to be expected of discussants. N: "I would say: everyone has his own style and it is hard to correct others. We can only correct ourselves. Conclusion: endless patience, as much as we can. Of course we fail often enough. We do not mind so much others, but, as Sarah once said: we mind our 'own' citta. Then there is no problem. We read what others write and then we do our best to clear up misunderstandings. We all have misunderstandings about the teachings, nobody is perfect." Scott: It is a given that we all have misunderstandings and that noboby is perfect. For those unable to subject themselves to self-correction, I think it fair to correct. This is the mundane way in which socialization unfolds amongst beings. The Buddha suggested the use of toothpicks, for example, as is being discussed elsewhere. I just think that the list is going through some sort of developmental process. I don't happen to agree that the ideal of endless patience be applied to the list in which a certain amount of self-correction, in those capable of it, is the point. None of us are endlessly patient. I likely don't see it the same way as you, and still don't feel that the solution to providing a correction to misunderstandings of the Dhamma needs to be found in a return to a former discussion climate from a prior version of DSG. I don't feel we need the loudness and the clamouressness of the past in order to continue to correct misunderstandings. These are just opinions, of course, Nina. No need to reply... Sincerely, Scott. #98819 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:36 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 7. nilovg Dear Colette, Op 29-jun-2009, om 19:42 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > What throws me is the application of naama in a sense of body- > consciousness. ------ N: Not so difficult. A certain consciousness is named body- consciousness because it experiences tangible object impinging on the bodysense. The bodysense is all over the body where there is sensitivity. Bodysense is rupa, it does not know anything but it is the means through which body-consciousness can experience tangible object. Tangible object such as hardness or heat are rupas. Hardness does not know 'I impinge on the bodysense and I am experienced by a citta that is body-consciousness'. Nina. #98820 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience, was: e-card from Casperia, nr Rome nilovg Dear Scott, Op 29-jun-2009, om 20:26 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > I find this an interesting discussion. And there is no need, > really, to put oneself anywhere special to find 'contrarious > persons' - no shortage of these (look now, you're interacting with > one!). ----- N: ;-)). An interesting discussion, because now we can apply what Ken is hammering in all the time: in the ultimate sense there are no persons. Only citta, cetasika and rupa, arising because of conditions. What a blessing. ------- > S: > No, I think my point hovers near the day-to-day notion of stylistic > comportment on the list. There are a modicum of such requirements > that it is only polite to adhere to; a certain way of interacting > in discussions which serves to further discussion....(snip) > Although, to be fair, there is a proselyting aspect to the list > which, I suppose, is a bit of a magnet for those opposed and, as > such, the opposition allows more proselyting from this camp. ----- N: Why think of proselytism? No need. -------- > > S:...Nevertheless, I'm suggesting that, despite the opportunity for > the arising of patience, certain minimum requirements are still to > be expected of discussants. ------- N: People feel for themselves afterwards when they have gone too far but sometimes they cannot bring themselves to it to express their feeling sorry. But this is not the point. We should not think too much of others' cittas, no, think of 'our own'. Thinking of he and me, of those persons on the list who do this or that to me, that is conceit and this is not helpful. We all have conceit, but it helps to detect it, to know it. --------- > > S: I just think that the list is going through some sort of > developmental process. I don't happen to agree that the ideal of > endless patience be applied to the list in which a certain amount > of self-correction, in those capable of it, is the point. None of > us are endlessly patient. ------ N: We try to be patient. We can develop the perfections and follow the Bodhisatta's example. Do not mind others when they speak in a harsh way. Do not expect anything, this is what I learnt from Kh Sujin time and again. She gives an example of being patient, always, all these years. She is insulted and critized but she really and truly does not mind. Upekkha. ------- Nina. #98821 From: A T Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:07 pm Subject: Antarabhava truth_aerator Hello all interested, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Scott quoted Bhikkhu Bodhi as writing: > > QUOTE > "...If we understand the term antaraaparinibbaayi literally, as it > seems we should, it then means one who attains Nibbaana in the > interval between two lives, perhaps while existing in a subtle body > in the intermediate state...Though the Theravaadin proponents argue > against this interpretation of antaraaparinibbaayi...,the evidence > from the suttas leans strongly in its favour..." (Note 65, > Bojjha.ngasa.myutta, Sa.myutta Nikaaya, pp. 1902-1903.)" > > > The above statement of Bhikkhu Bodhi was unfortunately wrong because > it failed to do justice to the Buddha's own definition of the term > "antaraaparinibbaayi". Why is BB's statement wrong? It really seems sad to me that some people try to fit the texts to suit the orthodoxy rather than the suttas. > The Buddha uses the term "antaraaparinibbaayi" as a technical term > reserved for an Anaagaamii, a Non-returner. So this term does not > permit us from interpreting outside the original Theravada meaning > described and defined by the Buddha in the Pali Suttam Texts. Here is my take: Some people are so progressed and are at such a state of Anagamiship that a little nudge is required to make achieve awakening in between lives. If we assume (contrary to the texts) that monks who commited suicide ex: Vakkali, were not Arahants, then where else would they achieve Arhatship other than intermediate state? Look, when you cut a juggular vein with a knife (as Vakkali, Godhika and Channa) did - at best you have few seconds left to live. That is not much time to even form a thought, nothing to say about achieving full Awakening. But they could have been antaraparinibbaayi and achieved awakening in the antarabhava where they may have had more time. > Before I quote the Buddha's description of this technical term, I > would like to make a brief comment on the Pali word "antara" whose > meaning is merely 'between'. As its English equivalent can be used > for any two things or two events or two qualities or two times or any > two states, the word 'antara' can also be used. This means that the > prefix 'antara' does not mean 'between two lives' as Bhikkhu Bodhi > claimed to understand the term literally. Between what else then? It appears like you are playing with words, trying to fix them into orthodox belief rather than what the Buddha has said. In one of the AN suttas (mentioned in Selfless Mind) the 7 kinds of Anagamis are clearly explained in such a way as to assume antarabhava. Close mindedness of some people is simply astonishing... > QUOTE >"It seems more common for him to note when he thinks the >commentaries have missed the boat; he does, however, seem to make >full use of the > commentaries. This is why I favour his translations of suttas over > others." Commentaries are just that, commentaries. They are not the same as Buddha Vacana. Just because some elder said so and so it doesn't mean that he is 100% correct. Look at Sati, Aritthra, Devadatta and other bad monks. How do we know that some commentators were not (perhaps good minded) but had erraneous ideas? When we talk about commentators, which ones? Why not go with Vasubandhu, Asanga, Nagarjuna and other commentators? > ------- > N: I give the PTS translation, of S. V, 285: > Fruits (b): > > Monks, there are four bases of psychic power... > It is by cultivating and making much of these four that seven fruits, > seven profits may be looked for. What are the seven? > In this very life, previously, one establishes realization: and if > not in this very life, previously, at any rate at the moment of > death. But if one do not so then, still by having worn down the five > fetters of the lower sort, one wins release midway or, failing that, > he does so by reduction of his time. Failing that, he passes away > without much trouble: failing that, with some trouble: or, striving > upstream, he is reborn in the Pure Abodes. > ------- > Nina. As I've said, some suttas DO support the idea of antarabhava, gandhabba, and intermediate parinibbana. With metta, Alex #98822 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:38 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 7. ksheri3 Dear Nina, Thanx, my problem was nothing more than my focus on TRANSCENDCE in the form of Tantra work. I hope you forgive me here since I'm focusing on the REALIZATION of a transcendent reality. I'm trying to find equalities that we have as sentient beings which directly relate and are equally applicable to the transendent consciousness that I experienced in my first Near Death Experience. ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Colette, > Op 29-jun-2009, om 19:42 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > > > What throws me is the application of naama in a sense of body- > > consciousness. > ------ > N: Not so difficult. A certain consciousness is named body- > consciousness because it experiences tangible object impinging on the > bodysense. The bodysense is all over the body where there is > sensitivity. Bodysense is rupa, it does not know anything but it is > the means through which body-consciousness can experience tangible > object. colette: sorry, I gotta go with what I know and how my magik works. ... ---------------------------- > Tangible object such as hardness or heat are rupas. colette: Again, you gotta let me think about his schtick. heat, as a rupa, is difficult however tummo is the example that I would use to make the sensation of heat as a rupa. let me go, however. ------------------------------ Hardness > does not know 'I impinge on the bodysense and I am experienced by a > citta that is body-consciousness'. > colette: oh, so ya thought you could pull the wool over my eyes, huh? Hardness cannot have a consciousness and make a conscious decision of experiencing a body-consciousness. ... Thanks for helping me see the reality that most buddhists speak of. WE'll get together sometime soon, I hope. toodles, colette #98823 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:46 pm Subject: Immediate rebirth nichiconn Hi Chris, I'm not clear as to whether you intended saying that the khuddhaka nikaaya is not to be considered as belonging to the sutta pitaka so I hope you're not offended when I give you the bird: "Give me another analogy." "What do you think, great king, if two birds fly in the sky and one sits in a high tree, and the other in a low tree, if these happen at the same time, the shadow of which one would appear on the ground first, and which one later?" "At the same time, venerable sir." "Just so, great king, for he who having passed away is reborn in the Brahma world, or for he who having passed away is reborn in Kashmir, they happen in the same time." "You are clever, venerable Nagasena." -Khuddaka Nikaaya, Milinda peace, connie #98824 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:05 pm Subject: Re: Immediate rebirth truth_aerator Hello Connie, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > I'm not clear as to whether you intended saying that the khuddhaka nikaaya is not to be considered as belonging to the sutta pitaka so I hope you're not offended when I give you the bird: > > "Give me another analogy." > "What do you think, great king, if two birds fly in the sky and one sits in a high tree, and the other in a low tree, if these happen at the same time, the shadow of which one would appear on the ground first, and which one later?" > "At the same time, venerable sir." > "Just so, great king, for he who having passed away is reborn in the Brahma world, or for he who having passed away is reborn in Kashmir, they happen in the same time." > "You are clever, venerable Nagasena." > -Khuddaka Nikaaya, Milinda > > peace, > connie I was refering to this passage when saying that the concept of intermediate rebirth is spelled out in Milinda-panha. Now considering that this work happens CENTURIES after the Buddha, it may have been affected by certain orthodox beliefs. I'd like ANYONE to find the proof of instantaneous rebirth in the 4 main Nikayas. Ain't gonna happen. The 4 main nikayas view on rebirth has intermediate existence. With metta, Alex #98825 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:33 pm Subject: Re: effort. Buddha quotes. truth_aerator Hello Nina, Scott, Ken, Sukin, Sarah and all The Buddha has said: "If, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain covetous, with thoughts of ill will, overcome by sloth & drowsiness, restless, uncertain, angry, with soiled thoughts, with my body aroused, lazy, or unconcentrated,' then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.051.than.html#turban" "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html These 2 quotes clearly show that at least at some points, effort MUST BE DONE in an active (and dare I say, conventional) sense. Please comment, With metta, Alex #98826 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:58 pm Subject: Immediate rebirth nichiconn Hi, Alex, regarding: "The 4 main nikayas view on rebirth has intermediate existence." connie: Do tell. We've seen the (dare i applaud: orthodox/dogmatic) refutation of the usual arguments already. Have you something new to offer? connie #98827 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:02 pm Subject: Please comment on this description of the path truth_aerator Hello Nina, Ken, Scott, Sarah, Jon, Sukin,m- and all, In many suttas there is this description of the path: Please comment on this often encountered teaching. ==== "And what, monks, are the qualities that make one a contemplative, that make one a brahman? 'We will be endowed with conscience & concern (for the consequences of wrong-doing)': That's how you should train yourselves. Now the thought may occur to you, 'We are endowed with conscience & concern. That much is enough, that much means we're done, so that the goal of our contemplative state has been reached. There's nothing further to be done,' and you may rest content with just that. So I tell you, monks. I exhort you, monks. Don't let those of you who seek the contemplative state fall away from the goal of the contemplative state when there is more to be done. Purity of conduct "And what more is to be done? 'Our bodily conduct will be pure, clear & open, unbroken & restrained. We will not exalt ourselves nor disparage others on account of that pure bodily conduct': That's how you should train yourselves. Now the thought may occur to you, 'We are endowed with conscience & concern. Our bodily conduct is pure. That much is enough, that much means we're done, so that the goal of our contemplative state has been reached. There's nothing further to be done,' and you may rest content with just that. So I tell you, monks. I exhort you, monks. Don't let those of you who seek the contemplative state fall away from the goal of the contemplative state when there is more to be done. "And what more is to be done? 'Our verbal conduct... our mental conduct will be pure, clear & open, unbroken & restrained. We will not exalt ourselves nor disparage others on account of that pure verbal... mental conduct': That's how you should train yourselves. Now the thought may occur to you, 'We are endowed with conscience & concern. Our bodily conduct is pure. Our verbal conduct... our mental conduct is pure. That much is enough, that much means we're done, so that the goal of our contemplative state has been reached. There's nothing further to be done,' and you may rest content with just that. So I tell you, monks. I exhort you, monks. Don't let those of you who seek the contemplative state fall away from the goal of the contemplative state when there is more to be done. "And what more is to be done? 'Our livelihood will be pure, clear & open, unbroken & restrained. We will not exalt ourselves nor disparage others on account of that pure livelihood': That's how you should train yourselves. Now the thought may occur to you, 'We are endowed with conscience & concern. Our bodily conduct is pure. Our verbal conduct... our mental conduct is pure. Our livelihood is pure. That much is enough, that much means we're done, so that the goal of our contemplative state has been reached. There's nothing further to be done,' and you may rest content with just that. So I tell you, monks. I exhort you, monks. Don't let those of you who seek the contemplative state fall away from the goal of the contemplative state when there is more to be done. Restraint of the senses "And what more is to be done? 'We will guard the doors to our sense faculties. On seeing a form with the eye, we will not grasp at any theme or variations by which — if we were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye — evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail us. We will practice for its restraint. We will protect the faculty of the eye. We will achieve restraint with regard to the faculty of the eye. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an aroma with the nose... On tasting a flavor with the tongue... On feeling a tactile sensation with the body... On cognizing an idea with the intellect, we will not grasp at any theme or variations by which — if we were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the intellect — evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail us. We will practice for its restraint. We will protect the faculty of the intellect. We will achieve restraint with regard to the faculty of the intellect': That's how you should train yourselves. Now the thought may occur to you, 'We are endowed with conscience & concern. Our bodily conduct is pure. Our verbal conduct... our mental conduct is pure. Our livelihood is pure. We guard the doors to our sense faculties. That much is enough, that much means we're done, so that the goal of our contemplative state has been reached. There's nothing further to be done,' and you may rest content with just that. So I tell you, monks. I exhort you, monks. Don't let those of you who seek the contemplative state fall away from the goal of the contemplative state when there is more to be done. Moderation in eating "And what more is to be done? 'We will have a sense of moderation in eating. Considering it appropriately, we will take food not playfully, nor for intoxication, nor for putting on bulk, nor for beautification, but simply for the survival & continuance of this body, for ending its afflictions, for the support of the holy life, thinking, "I will destroy old feelings [of hunger] & not create new feelings [from overeating]. Thus I will maintain myself, be blameless, & live in comfort"': That's how you should train yourselves. Now the thought may occur to you, 'We are endowed with conscience & concern. Our bodily conduct is pure. Our verbal conduct... our mental conduct is pure. Our livelihood is pure. We guard the doors to our sense faculties. We have a sense of moderation in eating. That much is enough, that much means we're done, so that the goal of our contemplative state has been reached. There's nothing further to be done,' and you may rest content with just that. So I tell you, monks. I exhort you, monks. Don't let those of you who seek the contemplative state fall away from the goal of the contemplative state when there is more to be done. Wakefulness "And what more is to be done? 'We will be devoted to wakefulness. During the day, sitting & pacing back & forth, we will cleanse the mind of any qualities that would hold it in check. During the first watch of the night,2 sitting & pacing back & forth, we will cleanse the mind of any qualities that would hold it in check. During the second watch of the night3 reclining on his right side, we will take up the lion's posture, one foot placed on top of the other, mindful, alert, with the mind set on getting up [either as soon as we awaken or at a particular time]. During the last watch of the night,4 sitting & pacing back & forth, we will cleanse the mind of any qualities that would hold it in check': That's how you should train yourselves. Now the thought may occur to you, 'We are endowed with conscience & concern. Our bodily conduct is pure. Our verbal conduct... our mental conduct is pure. Our livelihood is pure. We guard the doors to our sense faculties. We have a sense of moderation in eating. We are devoted to wakefulness. That much is enough, that much means we're done, so that the goal of our contemplative state has been reached. There's nothing further to be done,' and you may rest content with just that. So I tell you, monks. I exhort you, monks. Don't let those of you who seek the contemplative state fall away from the goal of the contemplative state when there is more to be done. Mindfulness & alertness "And what more is to be done? We will be possessed of mindfulness & alertness. When going forward and returning, we will act with alertness. When looking toward and looking away... when bending and extending our limbs... when carrying our outer cloak, upper robe, & bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & tasting... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, we will act with alertness': That's how you should train yourselves. Now the thought may occur to you, 'We are endowed with conscience & concern. Our bodily conduct is pure. Our verbal conduct... our mental conduct is pure. Our livelihood is pure. We guard the doors to our sense faculties. We have a sense of moderation in eating. We are devoted to wakefulness. We are possessed of mindfulness & alertness. That much is enough, that much means we're done, so that the goal of our contemplative state has been reached. There's nothing further to be done,' and you may rest content with just that. So I tell you, monks. I exhort you, monks. Don't let those of you who seek the contemplative state fall away from the goal of the contemplative state when there is more to be done. Abandoning the hindrances "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. "Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. Abandoning sloth and drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth and drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty. "Suppose that a man, taking a loan, invests it in his business affairs. His business affairs succeed. He repays his old debts and has extra left over for maintaining his wife. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, taking a loan, I invested it in my business affairs. Now my business affairs have succeeded. I have repaid my old debts and have extra left over for maintaining my wife.' Because of that he would gain joy & experience happiness. "Now suppose that a man falls sick — in pain & seriously ill. He does not enjoy his meals and has no measure of strength in his body. At a later time he is released from that sickness. He enjoys his meals and has a measure of strength in his body. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was sick....Now I am released from that sickness. I enjoy my meals and have a measure of strength in my body.' Because of that he would gain joy & experience happiness. "Now suppose that a man is bound in prison. At a later time he is released from that bondage, safe & sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was bound in prison. Now I am released from that bondage, safe & sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would gain joy & experience happiness. "Now suppose that a man, subject to others, not subject to himself, unable to go where he likes. At a later time he is released from that slavery, subject to himself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where he likes. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was a slave....Now I am released from that slavery, subject to myself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where I like.' Because of that he would gain joy & experience happiness. "Now suppose that a man, carrying money & goods, is traveling by a road through desolate country. At a later time he emerges from that desolate country, safe & sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, carrying money & goods, I was traveling by a road through desolate country. Now I have emerged from that desolate country, safe & sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would gain joy & experience happiness. In the same way, when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security. Seeing that they have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated. The four jhanas "Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure. "And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture. "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure nor stress. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. The three knowledges "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives.He recollects his manifold past lives... in their modes and details.... "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. ... "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There's nothing further for this world.' Just as if there were a pool of water in a mountain glen — clear, limpid, and unsullied — where a man with good eyesight standing on the bank could see shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also shoals of fish swimming about and resting, and it would occur to him, 'This pool of water is clear, limpid, and unsullied. Here are these shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also these shoals of fish swimming about and resting.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There's nothing further for this world.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html ============= DN# 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 MN#4, 27,36,39,51,60,65,76,77,79,101,112,119,125 With metta, Alex #98828 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:06 pm Subject: Antarabhava nichiconn Hi Alex, 1. When we talk about commentators, which ones? DSG Homepage: A Theravada Buddhist discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition. 2. Why not go with Vasubandhu, Asanga, Nagarjuna and other commentators? See above. 3. Can we at least lay the above two questions to rest now? peace, connie #98830 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:06 pm Subject: Re: Antarabhava truth_aerator Hi Connie, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 1. When we talk about commentators, which ones? > > DSG Homepage: A Theravada Buddhist discussion forum Even within Theravada there are different interpretations. > > 3. Can we at least lay the above two questions to rest now? Sure. Anyways, unless the translation is really bad of those suttas and the Buddha is using some complex metaphors, it really does appear to say what it says regarding antarabhava. And you know, I am not threatened by the idea of having antarabhava teaching in Pali suttas. None of it refutes anicca,dukkha, anatta, sunnata. With metta, Alex #98831 From: "m. nease" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) m_nease Hi Alberto, Thanks for the response-- sprlrt wrote: > > > > Still, pa~n~natti can't be the base of satipa.t.thaana even in the > former case (of 'hearing the truths'), would it? > > Not sure what you mean by base, I meant 'pa.t.thaana'--isn't this the 'base' or 'foundation' in satipa.t.thaana'? I'm not certain of the Paa.li. Am I confusing it with 'pati.t.thaana'? Two different meanings? > but I think that hearing/sutam > (paññatti) + proper considering/yoniso manasikàra (kusala ñanasampayutta > cittas), the two together making up pariyatti, are the right and > required conditions for the arising of patipatti/satipatthàna, kusala > ñanasampayutta citta again, but with a more developed (i.e. accumulated > through pariyatti) pañña, sati and the other path factors. Well, this is interesting. I don't think I've heard this expressed in quite this way before either. I like it; it makes sense to me but this particular construction is new to me. Still trying to put it together. hearing + concept + wise consideration + accumulated (via pariyatti) pa~n~naa = pa.tipatti (aka satipa.t.thaana) [I left out ~naana as an assumed synonym of pa~n~naa]. Is that about right? (It seems to me that this formula might work even with wrong concept recognized as such). If this is correct then I have to rethink my idea of pa.tipatti/satipa.t.thaana--I've thought for a long time that the 'base' or 'foundation' of satipa.t.thaana could only be dhamma, never pa~n~natti. If this is correct it certainly changes THAT picture. > As K. Sujin often says dhammas arise and fall all the time, unknowingly > without pañña. No question of that in my mind. Any corrections welcomed. mike #98832 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N:You are right to question this subject as to its relevance, but, > as Sarah wrote: states are often wrapped up in an idea of self or control.> > One does not see that rebirth-consciousness succeeding dying- > consciousness immediately is just like now: one citta falls away and > is then succeeded by the following one. That is the fixed order > (niyama) of cittas. Thus, it is important to be clear about this > subject. > --------- > > Dear Nina, Sarah, and all, Please explain to me why can't antarabhava & anatta co-exist? I see no problem with anatta & Antarabhava, and it is not a refutation of anicca-dukkha-anatta.. Why can't the death-consciousness that ceases in this life condition the rebirth-consciousness of GANDHABBA (or whatever it is properly called) that is in intermediate existence and the death moment of Gandhabba condition the arising citta of a new existence? There is no reason why teaching of cittas cannot be fit with "intermediate" existence. With metta, Alex #98833 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: ... > Dear Nina, Sarah, and all, > > > Please explain to me why can't antarabhava & anatta co-exist? I see no problem with anatta & Antarabhava, and it is not a refutation of anicca-dukkha-anatta.. > > Why can't the death-consciousness that ceases in this life condition the rebirth-consciousness of GANDHABBA (or whatever it is properly called) that is in intermediate existence and the death moment of Gandhabba condition the arising citta of a new existence? There is no reason why teaching of cittas cannot be fit with "intermediate" existence. ----------- Hi Alex, Until now it never mattered much to me either. But now that I think about it, the theory of an intermediate existence would have to imply an existence outside the five khandhas, wouldn't it?. That would turn the whole Dhamma on its head! Ken H #98834 From: "Dr. Han Tun" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:21 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (28) hantun1 Physical Phenomena (28) Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 2. The Eight Inseparable Ruupas (continuation) Han: This chapter deals with the eight inseparable ruupas (avinibbhoga ruupas), namely, solidity, cohesion, temperature, motion, colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence (pathavii, aapo, tejo, vaayo, va.n.na, gandha, rasa, ojaa). We have read the four derived ruupas, i.e., colour, odour, flavour, and nutritive essence. We now read some more aspects of the Eight Inseparables. Questions and comments are welcome. -------------------- The elements give us pleasure or pain. When we do not realize them as they are, we are enslaved by them. We read in the "Kindred Sayings"(II, Nidaana-vagga, Ch XIV, Kindred Sayings on Elements, § 34, Pain) that the Buddha said to the monks at Saavatthí: "If this earth-element, monks, this water-element, this heat-element, this air-element were entirely painful, beset with pain, immersed in pain, not immersed in happiness, beings would not be lusting after them. But inasmuch as each of these elements is pleasant, beset with pleasure, immersed in pleasure, not in pain, therefore it is that beings get lusting after them. If this earth-element, monks, this water-element, this heat-element, this air-element were entirely pleasant, beset with pleasure, immersed in pleasure, not immersed in pain, beings would not be repelled by them. But inasmuch as each of these elements is painful, is beset with pain, immersed in pain, not immersed in pleasure, therefore it is that beings are repelled by them." We are bound to be attached to the elements when we buy beautiful clothes or enjoy delicious food. We are bound to be repelled by the elements when we get hurt or when we are sick. But no matter whether the objects we experience are pleasant or unpleasant, we should realize them as elements that arise because of their own conditions and that do not belong to us. -------------------- This is the End of Chpter 2: The Eight Inseparables. Chapter 3: The Sense-Organs will start from the next post. with metta, Han #98835 From: "sprlrt" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:27 am Subject: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) sprlrt Hi Mike, ... > I meant 'pa.t.thaana'--isn't this the 'base' or 'foundation' in satipa.t.thaana'? ... > I've thought for a long time that the 'base' or 'foundation' of satipa.t.thaana could only be dhamma, never pa~n~natti. ... According to tipitaka only citta, 52 cetasikas, 28 rùpas and nibbana are paramattha dhamma; anything else then has got to be paññatti, inc. the Dhamma/tipitaka itself. Alberto #98836 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" truth_aerator Hi Ken, Nina, Scott and all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Until now it never mattered much to me either. But now that I think > about it, the theory of an intermediate existence would have to imply >an existence outside the five khandhas, wouldn't it?. Why? > That would turn the whole Dhamma on its head! No because the Gandhabba is made of khandas like everyone else. > > Ken H Can someone explain to me, why would intermidiate existence refute anicca, dukkha, anatta? Why can't there be momentary cittas (cuti citta, patisandhi & so on) in Gandhabba as well? It doesn't seem to me! With metta, Alex #98837 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 30-jun-2009, om 0:33 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put > forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided > mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; > in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, > diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the > abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. > "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the > case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions .... > > These 2 quotes clearly show that at least at some points, effort > MUST BE DONE in an active (and dare I say, conventional) sense. ------- N: Even when speaking in a conventional sense, we should not forget that effort is a cetasika and this accompanies in the example above kusala citta. ------ Nina. #98838 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Please comment on this description of the path nilovg Dear Alex, it shows an example of an ideal monk who has as his aim to reach arahatship, which is actually the goal of monkhood. He develops jhaana and insight. He reaches the goal. Nina. Op 30-jun-2009, om 2:02 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Hello Nina, Ken, Scott, Sarah, Jon, Sukin,m- and all, > > In many suttas there is this description of the path: > > Please comment on this often encountered teaching. > > ==== > "And what, monks, are the qualities that make one a contemplative, > that make one a brahman? #98839 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) m_nease Hi Alberto, sprlrt wrote: > According to tipitaka only citta, 52 cetasikas, 28 rùpas and nibbana are > paramattha dhamma; anything else then has got to be paññatti, inc. the > Dhamma/tipitaka itself. Understood and agreed, thanks again. mike #98840 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State", to Alex, no 1. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 30-jun-2009, om 3:15 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Please explain to me why can't antarabhava & anatta co-exist? I see > no problem with anatta & Antarabhava, and it is not a refutation of > anicca-dukkha-anatta.. > > Why can't the death-consciousness that ceases in this life > condition the rebirth-consciousness of GANDHABBA (or whatever it is > properly called) that is in intermediate existence and the death > moment of Gandhabba condition the arising citta of a new existence? > There is no reason why teaching of cittas cannot be fit with > "intermediate" existence. ------- N: I am thinking of the planes of existence where beings can be born and this is conditioned by kamma. Why insert another plane like the antarabhava. This is not in accordance with the Dependent Origination. BTW in the post of Suan I quoted yesterday, we see that he states about anatabhava: < I would like to make a brief comment on the Pali word "antara" whose meaning is merely 'between'. As its English equivalent can be used for any two things or two events or two qualities or two times or any two states, the word 'antara' can also be used. This means that the prefix 'antara' does not mean 'between two lives' as Bhikkhu Bodhi claimed to understand the term literally.> It gives rise to lots of dilemmas, such as dying-consciousness that is immediately followed by rebirth-consciousness, by way of contiguity-condition. Rebirth-consciousness is produced by kamma, and if there would be an intermediate state, by what kamma is it produced? I quote from Vis. Ch XVII: < Text Vis.136: [From happy to unhappy destiny.] For example, firstly in the case of a person in the happy destinies of the sense-sphere who is an evil-doer, when he is lying on his death-bed, his evil kamma according as it has been stored up, or its sign, comes into focus in the mind door. ------- N: the Pali ’yathuupacita’, is translated ‘as it has been stored up’, but upacita means: accumulated. Kamma that has been performed in the past is accumulated from one moment to the next moment, even from one life to the next life and thus, it can produce a result later on. -------- Text Vis.: For it is said, 'Then [the evil deeds that he did in the past] ... cover him [and overspread him and envelop him]' (M.iii,164), and so on. --------- N: The Tiika quotes from the Sutta text the Vis. alludes to: M. III, 164: --------- Text Vis.Then next to the cognitive series of impulsions ending in registration that arose contingent upon that [kamma or its sign], death consciousness arises making the life-continuum's objective field its object. ---------- N: The cuti-citta has the same object as the bhavanga-cittas of the life that is just ending. --------- Text Vis.: When it has ceased, rebirth-linking consciousness arises contingent upon that same kamma or kamma sign that had come into focus, --------- N: The Tiika adds: as soon as the death-consciousness has ceased, it (the rebirth-consciousness) follows just without any interval. It explains that it has as object the object of the series of javana as mentioned. These are the javanacittas arising shortly before dying. > -------- (to be continued) Nina #98841 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:50 am Subject: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State", to Alex, no 2. nilovg Dear Alex, As I see it, I cannot fit in an intermediate state. continuation: more quotes from Vis. Ch XVII: Text Vis.: And while, as a continuous process,31 it is being pushed by craving and flung forward by formations, it abandons its former support, like a man who crosses a river by hanging on to a rope tied to a tree on the near bank, and, whether or not it gets a further support originated by kamma, it occurs by means of the conditions consisting only in object condition, and so on. --------------------------- N: Note 31, taken from the Tiika:. 'As a continuous process consisting of death, rebirth-linking, and the adjacent consciousnesses' (Pm. 617). This shows that cittas arise and fall away and succeed one another without interval, in continuity (santati). Dying-consciousness, rebirth-consciosuness and the following cittas in the next life succeed one another extremely quickly. As we read before (Vis. 136), with regard to the location of rebirth: ‘ being driven there by the force of defilements that have not been cut off.’, these are the defilements such as ignorance and craving (tanhaa), as the Tiika explains. It states that these are the ‘attendants’ (upa.t.thaana) of kamma and hence there is the inclining to the succession of cittas in a following life. The pa.tisandhi- citta is driven towards one location. As to the expression, ‘whether or not it gets a further support originated by kamma’, the Tiika states that when there is rebirth with five khandhas (pa~ncavokaarabhava) there is the support of the heartbase, whereas when there is rebirth with four khandhas (catuvokaarabhava), there is no heartbase. In the latter case there are only the four naamakhandhas, no ruupa. As the text states: < it occurs by means of the conditions consisting only in object condition, and so on.> As we have seen, the kamma that will produce rebirth-consciousness, conditions the last javanacittas and the object experienced by those cittas. The object may be kamma, a sign of kamma or a vision of the place of rebirth. ****** Conclusion: It is emphasized in the foregoing that not a person is reborn, but that there are only nama and rupa arising and falling away. The dying-consciousness is a citta and it is immediately succeeded by the next citta which is the rebirth-consciousness. This happens as it were in one continuity. As we read, (162) ‘ it is not a lasting being, not a soul. And it has neither transmigrated from the past becoming nor yet is it manifested here without cause from that.’ The Tiika refers to a text of the ‘Middle Length Sayings’ (I, no 38), ‘Greater Discourse on the Destruction of Craving’. The monk Sati thought that ‘this consciousness itself runs on, fares on, not another.’ We read that the Buddha explained to him about citta that arises because of its appropriate conditions. He explained that if citta arises because of eye and visible object it is known as seeing- consciousness, and so on for the other classes of cittas. There are different types of cittas arising because of different conditions. Not a person transmigrates from the past life to the present life, and so long as there are conditions there will be rebirth. What happens at the moments of dying and rebirth is not different from wat occurs right now: citta falls away and it is succeeded by a following citta. Nobody can control rebirth, it is conditioned by kamma. ****** Intro Vis. 164: In the preceding section it was explained that there is no lasting being that dies and is reborn, although the dying-consciousness and rebirth-consciousness occur as it were in one continuity. In this section it is explained that the next becoming is another becoming and the rebirth-consciousness links the former life to the next life. The translator speaks about linking across a gap. The Tiika emphasizes this by mentioning again the many varieties of becoming, destination etc. There may be life in the human plane to be followed by life as an animal who is eggborn, for example. ----------- Text Vis.164: The former of these [two states of consciousness] is called 'death' (cuti) because of falling (cavana), and the latter is called 'rebirth-linking' (pa.tisandhana) because of linking (pa.tisandhaana) across the gap separating the beginning of the next becoming. ------------- N: The Tiika explains that the next becoming is another becoming and the rebirth-consciousness links the former life to the next life. The Tiika then refers in one phrase to the many differences in becoming, its way of being produced, destiny, station of consciousness and abode of being (bhava-yoni-gati-vi~n~naa.na.t.thiti-sattaavaasa) as explained in Vis. 148, and states that the rebirth-consciousness links the past life to thes next becoming. ******* Nina. #98842 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. truth_aerator Dear Nina, and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 30-jun-2009, om 0:33 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put > > forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided > > mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; > > in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, > > diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the > > abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. > > "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the > > case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions .... > > > > These 2 quotes clearly show that at least at some points, effort > > MUST BE DONE in an active (and dare I say, conventional) sense. > ------- > N: Even when speaking in a conventional sense, we should not forget > that effort is a cetasika and this accompanies in the example above > kusala citta. > ------ > Nina. Of course, every action IS conditioned. Of course one cannot control the mind to drop the hindrances & fetters. But these things DO happen when causes & conditions are right. Going to a secluded place, sitting in a helpful way, training in Anapanasati (or what ever) and LETTING GO does happen! It was taught frequently in the suttas. With metta, Alex #98843 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:09 am Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path truth_aerator Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > it shows an example of an ideal monk who has as his aim to reach > arahatship, which is actually the goal of monkhood. He develops > jhaana and insight. He reaches the goal. > Nina. > Op 30-jun-2009, om 2:02 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > Hello Nina, Ken, Scott, Sarah, Jon, Sukin,m- and all, > > > > In many suttas there is this description of the path: > > > > Please comment on this often encountered teaching. > > > > ==== > > "And what, monks, are the qualities that make one a contemplative, > > that make one a brahman? I am glad that you accept the above outline of the path for an Ideal monk with aim for Arhatship. With best wishes, Alex #98844 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:00 am Subject: "I'm talking to the man in the mirror" Micheal Jackson ksheri3 Good Morning Group, It's simple, my problems are worthy only of infants, so maybe some brain scientist and/or rocket surgeon could help me out here: WHAT IS THE SOUND OF ONE HAND CLAPPLING? toodles, colette #98845 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:51 am Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) jonoabb Hi Howard (98528) > ---------------------------------------------- > Whew! ;-) What of your own experience, Jon? Have you never > intentionally sought out knowledgeable people? You need a text to tell you this?! > ------------------------------------------------ Yes, we all do intentional actions of various kinds all the time. No issue from me on that. But in the case of the intention to hear the teachings properly explained, the extent to which that intention is fulfilled depends on past kamma rather than the strength or degree of wholesomeness of that intention. > On the contrary, the verses of the elders seem to indicate that such > association occurs generally as a result of kusala deeds performed in a previous > life. > ------------------------------------------------- > Jon, the thought that comes to my mind about you is "He should get > real!" ;-) Sounds interesting. But by "getting real" do you mean seeing things the same way as you do? ;-)) > And, Jon, kusala deeds are intentional. What about kusala deeds > NOW, like intentionally seeking out great Dhamma teachers? Any conventional kusala deed is in reality a mixture of kusala moments and akusala moments. It is only the kusala moments that bring kusala vipaka. When it comes to deeds that concern the practice of the teachings, that is to say, that are motivated by a view of what constitutes the development of the path, the kusala nature of the deed depends very much on the correctness of that view. > ------------------------------------------------ > Desire for wholesome results alone will not produce auspicious > outcomes. Proper actions must be taken, and that action, based on wisdom, is > volitional. > ---------------------------------------------- Wisdom is itself an "auspicious outcome". If wisdom is present, there is no need for any action to be taken. > -------------------------------------------- > Yes, Jon, that is your opinion. It is not mine. That is the issue, is > it not? Stating your view as fact doesn't make it fact. My view is that > practice consists of many series of intentional actions. > ---------------------------------------------- I'm not sure if we're talking bout the same thing here. I'm saying that the Pali term "patipatti" (and also the term "pariyatti" for that matter) refer to actual moments of panna rather than to intentional actions. You I think are saying that panna cannot arise unless prompted by intentional actions of some sort. Have I understood you correctly? > ----------------------------------------------- > What has happened to your love of accumulations, Jon? Their basis is > past action! In any case, your position is clear: Whatever happens is random > in the sense of human volition having no bearing on it. > -------------------------------------------- The basis of accumulations of mental states (including cetana) is past occurrences of those very mental states. No, you have misunderstood. There is nothing random about what is being experienced at the present moment. But the same time, neither is it a matter of human volition. > ---------------------------------------------- > I'm missing the point you are making here. What "lifestyle," following > the monk's training? The monk's training does not require dwelling in remote place or spending time at the roots of trees. Many monks lived in large (monastic) communities and had a lifestyle far removed from that of a forest dweller. > ------------------------------------------------- > Was it I who spoke of "lifestyle" or you? Not me, so far as I know. > But, in fact, a monk's life certainly is a lifestyle, is it not? Yes, a monk's life is a different lifestyle to that of a lay-person. And within the monk's life, there are again different lifestyles that could be followed (as in lay life). > ---------------------------------------------- > > Everything is based on conditions. Among the conditions for engaging in > good practice are strong intention and dedication, and also faith that the > Buddha's INSTRUCTIONS are useful. > ------------------------------------------- These are your own idea of what the conditions for the development of insight are; I don't think you will find such a set of conditions mentioned in the suttas (or other texts). Jon #98846 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:55 am Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) jonoabb Hi Howard (98781) > ----------------------------------------- > Humans might as well be rocks, it seems to me is your perspective. ;-) > Intention strikes me as a cetasika you would love to remove from the > lists. I thought we had put this issue to rest long ago ;-)). You have got me quite wrong on this issue of the cetasika of intention. > But intention is *paramount*! Again, at the start of the Dhammapada > there is the following: > > > Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are > they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as > the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. > Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are > they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as > one's shadow that never leaves. > In the foregoing, 'mind' refers to intention and intentional action, i.e., > to kamma. In that regard, see the following found at > _http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/_ (http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/) : I beg to differ with this summary of the commentary. What the commentary says as I read it is that in the first set of references (Mind is the forerunner of (all evil/good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they), "mind" means "citta", while in the second set of references ("If one speaks or acts with wicked/pure mind"), "mind" refers to the mental factor of "cetana". Thus, deeds that are accompanied by wholesome intention (i.e., when the citta is kusala) are kusala kamma, while deeds that are accompanied by unwholesome intention (i.e., when the citta is akusala) are akusala kamma. That is exactly as one would expect it to be. But nothing in that commentary supports the proposition that kusala can be made to arise by intending to have kusala (with or without accompanying action), or that the result of kusala can be experienced by intending to experience that result. Jon #98847 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:00 am Subject: E-card from Italy 2 sarahprocter... Dear Alex, Nina Scott, Lukas & all, I'm writing this off-line on Jon's computer, sitting on our terrace overlooking the hills and olive groves. Every evening we have a lovely sunset and that's about when we go to bed! This morning at breakfast and on a walk the other day to some ancient ruins, I had a chat with some young Scottish and English women about meditation and 'this moment'. They are rather interested in Jon and I – in our lifestyle, 'calm appearances' (ha ha!) and 'Buddhist approach'. Does meditation have to wait until we're in an idyllic quiet corner or can there be calm and wisdom when busy and stressed at work? I'd chatted to one of the Scottish women, Michelle, on the walk about meditation now at this moment of seeing or hearing and how all the problems, everything we find so important is just in the mind now. We'd talked about 'the happy Michelle', 'the disturbed Michelle' and all the other 'Michelle's', just lasting for a moment and then gone. Usually we find ourselves so important, that we cling on to an idea of this or that 'Michelle'. At breakfast, she mentioned that she'd considered our conversation quite a lot and found it very helpful. If we have the idea that 'meditation' has to be 'done' in a certain way and at a certain time, instead of being liberating, it's imprisoning. So Alex, I'm very glad to see you writing again and thanks for the posts addressed to me. No one has said 'don't do' this or that. Do whatever you like, whatever there are conditions to do, but develop understanding at the present moment, regardless – after all, that's all there ever is. As for 'the looking down on' aproach you read – I think some of us would like you to understand that the imprisonment of your boring/tedious practice (I forget the words you used), is unneccesary. It's the understanding that counts. What is the reality appearing now? Isn't it just as real whether here in the Italian hills or in your home? It's only thinking which produces rules and guidelines about the 'where' and 'when'. Why not try to save up some money and come and join us and Nina in Bangkok in February as Lukas hopes to do? As for the intermediate states – there's always a citta arising and it always arises in a realm of some kind, even if the existence in a realm lasts just for a few moments. Citta can't arise outside a 'realm'. Scott, yes, cats everywhere here – I've seldom seen so many. I think Nina has answered your questions to me about 'styles' on the list. You contribute so much here and I and many others are very, very grateful for your presence. Perhaps you can mostly address those of us who appreciate all the detail and research you put into your posts? It may take Alex a few decades to see the light (ha, ha!!), but for my part, I consider him and everyone else here as good friends who help me reflect further on the Truths. Like a large, extended family, there are always going to be members we find annoying or wasting our time, usually because of the long stories about 'people', as Nina suggested. If it's not this person with his/her view, it'll be another one , maybe even someone who has more or less the same understanding as ourselves:). We never know what it'll be next... Lukas, please don't be nervous about your trip next weekend – whether sitting at home or flying by plane, again just namas and rupas. Again, the worry and concerns are just the work of Mara, the thinking about various scenarios, lost in dreams again. Please make sure you keep in touch with us and I'll try to write more to you when I have a chance – very limited in Italy. Please send any of your notes to me here – I will reply. Meanwhile, thanks to all for the great discussions. Metta, Sarah ======== #98848 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:06 am Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) jonoabb Hi Collette (98793) > The problem I see with this non-sense about having the luck to run into "good" people or intelligent people or whatever is nothing more than, as it was recorded in Nashville by Bonnie Raite, THE LUCK OF THE DRAW, it simply just happened. >> It is an interesting question as to whether anything "simply just happens". But whether or not that is the case for some part of our lives, there is the teaching on kamma and vipaka (cause and result) to be taken into account. How do you see kamma/vipaka as manifesting in our lives? Jon #98849 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:07 am Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) jonoabb Hi Alberto > See you and Sarah on Friday in Viareggio. Yes, very much looking forward to that ;-)) Jon #98850 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:09 am Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path jonoabb Hi Alex (98827) > In many suttas there is this description of the path: > > Please comment on this often encountered teaching. It would make it a lot easier to comment if you indicate the exact point you're raising. Perhaps you could start the ball rolling by giving your take on the following part of the passage: "And what more is to be done? We will be possessed of mindfulness & alertness. When going forward and returning, we will act with alertness. When looking toward and looking away... when bending and extending our limbs... when carrying our outer cloak, upper robe, & bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & tasting... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, we will act with alertness': That's how you should train yourselves. Jon #98851 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) m_nease Hi Jon (and Howard), jonoabb wrote: > Yes, a monk's life is a different lifestyle to that of a lay-person. And > within the monk's life, there are again different lifestyles that could > be followed (as in lay life). This reminded me of a favorite passage from the Vinaya texts: "Then the venerable Dabba, the Mallian, being so chosen, assigned one lodging in the same place for those monks who belonged to the same company. For those monks who knew the Suttantas he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "These will be able to chant over the Suttantas to one another." For those monks versed in the Vinaya rules, he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will decide upon the Vinaya with one another." For those monks teaching dhamma he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will discuss dhamma [in the actual Pali this is specified as ABHIDHAMMA] with one another." Sanghadisesa VII, in the Book of Discipline, PTS, translated by I.B. Horner mike #98852 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:15 am Subject: Re: E-card from Italy 2 szmicio Dear Sarah, Your post is such a good reminder. Thanks. My best wishes Lukas > Dear Alex, Nina Scott, Lukas & all, > > I'm writing this off-line on Jon's computer, sitting on our terrace overlooking the hills and olive groves. Every evening we have a lovely sunset and that's about when we go to bed! > > This morning at breakfast and on a walk the other day to some ancient ruins, I had a chat with some young Scottish and English women about meditation and 'this moment'. They are rather interested in Jon and I â�� in our lifestyle, 'calm appearances' (ha ha!) and 'Buddhist approach'. Does meditation have to wait until we're in an idyllic quiet corner or can there be calm and wisdom when busy and stressed at work? I'd chatted to one of the Scottish women, Michelle, on the walk about meditation now at this moment of seeing or hearing and how all the problems, everything we find so important is just in the mind now. We'd talked about 'the happy Michelle', 'the disturbed Michelle' and all the other 'Michelle's', just lasting for a moment and then gone. Usually we find ourselves so important, that we cling on to an idea of this or that 'Michelle'. At breakfast, she mentioned that she'd considered our conversation quite a lot and found it very helpful. If we > have the idea that 'meditation' has to be 'done' in a certain way and at a certain time, instead of being liberating, it's imprisoning. > > So Alex, I'm very glad to see you writing again and thanks for the posts addressed to me. No one has said 'don't do' this or that. Do whatever you like, whatever there are conditions to do, but develop understanding at the present moment, regardless â�� after all, that's all there ever is. As for 'the looking down on' aproach you read â�� I think some of us would like you to understand that the imprisonment of your boring/tedious practice (I forget the words you used), is unneccesary. It's the understanding that counts. What is the reality appearing now? Isn't it just as real whether here in the Italian hills or in your home? It's only thinking which produces rules and guidelines about the 'where' and 'when'. Why not try to save up some money and come and join us and Nina in Bangkok in February as Lukas hopes to do? > > As for the intermediate states â�� there's always a citta arising and it always arises in a realm of some kind, even if the existence in a realm lasts just for a few moments. Citta can't arise outside a 'realm'. > > Scott, yes, cats everywhere here â�� I've seldom seen so many. I think Nina has answered your questions to me about 'styles' on the list. You contribute so much here and I and many others are very, very grateful for your presence. Perhaps you can mostly address those of us who appreciate all the detail and research you put into your posts? It may take Alex a few decades to see the light (ha, ha!!), but for my part, I consider him and everyone else here as good friends who help me reflect further on the Truths. Like a large, extended family, there are always going to be members we find annoying or wasting our time, usually because of the long stories about 'people', as Nina suggested. If it's not this person with his/her view, it'll be another one , maybe even someone who has more or less the same understanding as ourselves:). We never know what it'll be next... > > Lukas, please don't be nervous about your trip next weekend â�� whether sitting at home or flying by plane, again just namas and rupas. Again, the worry and concerns are just the work of Mara, the thinking about various scenarios, lost in dreams again. Please make sure you keep in touch with us and I'll try to write more to you when I have a chance â�� very limited in Italy. Please send any of your notes to me here â�� I will reply. > > Meanwhile, thanks to all for the great discussions. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > #98853 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 30-jun-2009, om 17:20 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Going to a secluded place, sitting in a helpful way, training in > Anapanasati (or what ever) and LETTING GO does happen! ------- N: Provided there is no hidden idea of self behind it all. Nina. #98854 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) nilovg Dear Alberto and Jon, But just now there was a terrible train accident and explosion, we saw it on T.V. I hope Alberto does not live nearby. Nina. Op 30-jun-2009, om 20:07 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > Alberto :See you and Sarah on Friday in Viareggio. #98855 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) m_nease p.s. I copied this from an old copy and, I think, got the citation wrong (and left out some interesting bits): Then the venerable Dabba, the Mallian, being so chosen, assigned one lodging in the same place for those monks who belonged to the same company. For those monks who knew the Suttantas he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: 'These will be able to chant over the Suttantas to one another." For those monks versed in the Vinaya rules, he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will decide upon the Vinaya with one another." For those monks teaching dhamma he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will discuss dhamma with one another." For those monks who were musers he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will not disturb one another." For those monks who lived indulging in low talk and who were athletic he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "These reverend ones will live according to their pleasure." [Sanghadisesa] VIII. 1, 3-4] FORMAL MEETING 273 Thanks for your patience. mike #98856 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Assignment / was Re: characteristic of thinking nilovg Dear Ken, Op 28-jun-2009, om 10:32 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > Visible object was experienced by seeing > consciousness, audible object by . . . etc, etc. That's all that > *really* happened. Just like is happening now: there is no self > that can > try, pass or fail, or be taught a conventional teaching; just dhammas. -------- N: I do not think so much about: this a conventional teaching, this is not. Also when the Buddha teaches about subjects other than satipatthaana, such as honouring one's parents, it is actually about kusala citta, about citta and cetasikas. This is kusala, that is akusala, it is all about citta and cetasikas. We are glad to learn more and cultivate what is beneficial. I spoke about my journey in Egypt and Turkey where we profited from Kh. Sujin's advice on many topics. Why would I think: is this conventional, is this on ultimates? That makes life needlessly complicated. I agree with you on what I highlighted above, of course. Nina. #98857 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) m_nease Hi Nina (and All), Yes, terrible. Best wishes to all in Viareggio and any news about our friends most welcome. mike Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear Alberto and Jon, > But just now there was a terrible train accident and explosion, we > saw it on T.V. I hope Alberto does not live nearby. > Nina. > Op 30-jun-2009, om 20:07 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > > > Alberto :See you and Sarah on Friday in Viareggio. #98858 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. truth_aerator Dear Nina and all interested, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 30-jun-2009, om 17:20 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > Going to a secluded place, sitting in a helpful way, training in > > Anapanasati (or what ever) and LETTING GO does happen! > ------- > N: Provided there is no hidden idea of self behind it all. > Nina. Of course there is no hidden idea of Self, doer or controller. As I've stated in other posts: Self View (and rites & ritual belief) is not a factor, it is an *obstacle* to meditation. With metta, Alex #98859 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:51 pm Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path truth_aerator Hi Jon and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (98827) > > In many suttas there is this description of the path: > > > > Please comment on this often encountered teaching. > > It would make it a lot easier to comment if you indicate the exact >point you're raising. The points I have raised were (to name a few) -That certain activities ARE done. -That Jhanas *can* and *are* used for full awakening. The Buddha awoken (some translate 'discovered') to Jhana. > > Perhaps you could start the ball rolling by giving your take on the following part of the passage: > > "And what more is to be done? We will be possessed of mindfulness & alertness. > When going forward and returning, we will act with alertness. When looking > toward and looking away... when bending and extending our limbs... when carrying > our outer cloak, upper robe, & bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & > tasting... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, > falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, we will act with > alertness': That's how you should train yourselves. > > Jon Developing mindfulness is important and it helps the sitting meditation later on. It *is* one of the important supporting conditions for successful meditation later on. If you are unmindful in daily life evil & unwholesome mental states can enter and remain - this feeds the hindrances that obstruct Jhana & Wisdom. Furthermore, monks have to be especially careful not to accidental brake Vinaya rules or see things that may cause them to disrobe. With metta, Alex #98860 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:05 pm Subject: Re: E-card from Italy 2 truth_aerator Hello Sarah and all interested, > sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Alex, Nina Scott, Lukas & all, >Does meditation have to wait until we're in an idyllic quiet corner >or can there be calm and wisdom when busy and stressed at work? It doesn't need to wait, but there are times when seclusion is timely and appropriate. As you know, there are many suttas about going in the wild, empty caves, root of the trees, abandoned building, etc. >If we have the idea that 'meditation' has to be 'done' in a certain >way and at a certain time, In certain way = without Self view, "doing", controlling or hindrances. >instead of being liberating, it's imprisoning. If done properly it helps to liberate from Samsara. *IF* done properly. Furthermore the more one LETS GO and RELINQUISHES control the more bliss arises. That is wonderful, better than being in this painful body. > So Alex, I'm very glad to see you writing again and thanks for the >posts addressed to me. No one has said 'don't do' this or that. Do >whatever you like, whatever there are conditions to do, but develop >understanding at the present moment, regardless â€" after all, that's >all there ever is. As for 'the looking down on' aproach you read â€" I >think some of us would like you to understand that the imprisonment >of your boring/tedious practice (I forget the words you used), is >unneccesary. The "boring, tediousness, discontent" of meditation that is becoming more wholesome is Mara's army. Remember the Sutta Nipata sutta on "armies of Mara"? § "Our defilements have made us suffer enough already. Now it's our turn to make them suffer." - Ajaahn Fuang >It's the understanding that counts. Of course. Even the "best technique" done without understanding will not work and may very well be "rites & rituals". This applies not just to meditating but reading your favorite Dhamma books. >What is the reality appearing now? *How* exactly do you see the reality appearing now? Or do you merely think that you see reality happening now and go and live a normal life? >Isn't it just as real whether here in the Italian hills or in your >home? Some places are more suitable than others. With metta, Alex #98861 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/30/2009 10:52:27 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: These are your own idea of what the conditions for the development of insight are; I don't think you will find such a set of conditions mentioned in the suttas (or other texts). ============================== I do think so. but I have no time for this now. I had a had disk crash and had to reformat the c-drive. I've lost loads of software, all my documents and photos including family pix and much more. I'm working on this at the moment. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98862 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:30 pm Subject: Re: "I'm talking to the man in the mirror" Micheal Jackson ksheri3 Hi Group, The post I'm connecting this post too was done without regard to what I had been actualizing/concentrating on earlier. ... EArlier Nina and I were discussing this thing called Naama and Nina was trying to avoid my point that this thing we call Naama is nothing more than a mind-made thing. Here I can actually say that it is a thing since it directly corresponds to the NAME we place upon stuff to find the realization called RUPA. I'm proposing that Naama and Rupa are the same thing. The only difference is in the way they are applied, for instance Naama is the name given to that which can only be applied to MENTAL activity yet mental activity is the only thing that actually comprises the world in which we live in THUS EXPLAINING this trivial need to create this new term called TWO TRUTHS (Relative Truth and Ultimate Truth). ... Now I know this is out there and I haven't had anywhere near the time to complete the thought and equality (samadhi) which I'm attempting to do, but, as I began with, I'm persueing this line of thought as a means of rationalizing and putting an end to the problems I'm having with LongDe and SemDe (which are Time & Space). Thanx for the opportunity to not be such a looney tune. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Good Morning Group, > > It's simple, my problems are worthy only of infants, so maybe some brain scientist and/or rocket surgeon could help me out here: > > WHAT IS THE SOUND OF ONE HAND CLAPPLING? > > toodles, > colette > #98863 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:31 pm Subject: On understanding truth_aerator Hello Sarah, Jon, Nina and all. Personally I believe that understanding is more than just being able to recite some doctrine while showing one's prolix knowledge of the vocabulary and obfuscation of simple teachings. Many Arahants of old did not know that much theory. For example the Arahant Assaji couldn't say much to wanderer Sariputta to whom Sariputta has wisely said: Assaji: "I am new, my friend, not long gone forth, only recently come to this doctrine and discipline. I cannot explain the doctrine in detail, but I can give you the gist in brief." Then Sariputta the wanderer spoke thus to the Ven. Assaji: Speak a little or a lot, but tell me just the gist. The gist is what I want. What use is a lot of rhetoric? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/vin/mv/mv.01.23.01-10.than.html Ven. Sariputta: "What is the use of a lot of rhetoric?" "There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes as something separate. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.080.than.html ""And how is a monk learned? His evil, unskillful qualities that are defiled, that lead to further becoming, create trouble, ripen in stress, and lead to future birth, aging, & death have streamed away. This is how a monk is learned." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html "And which is comprehension? Any ending of passion, ending of aversion, ending of delusion. This is called comprehension." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.023.than.html To fully know craving = to let go of it. To fully know "avijja" is to fully let it go and develop vijja. To know anicca, is to act & percieve everything as anicca. To fully know dukkha = to treat and feel sankharas as ultimately dukkha. etc etc. With metta, Alex #98864 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) truth_aerator Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: I had a had disk crash > and had to reformat the c-drive. I've lost loads of software, all my > documents and photos including family pix and much more. I'm working on this at > the moment. > > With metta, > Howard Did you try to recover the deleted files ? Apparently there is a method and programs like traceerase and perhaps many more. Also, do you do dvd-backups? It is a good idea to keep backing up all of one's files. I wish you manage to restore them. With metta, Alex #98865 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Assignment / was Re: characteristic of thinking kenhowardau Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ken, > Op 28-jun-2009, om 10:32 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > > > Visible object was experienced by seeing > > consciousness, audible object by . . . etc, etc. That's all that > > *really* happened. Just like is happening now: there is no self > > that can > > try, pass or fail, or be taught a conventional teaching; just dhammas. > -------- > N: I do not think so much about: this a conventional teaching, this > is not. Also when the Buddha teaches about subjects other than > satipatthaana, such as honouring one's parents, it is actually about > kusala citta, about citta and cetasikas. This is kusala, that is > akusala, it is all about citta and cetasikas. We are glad to learn > more and cultivate what is beneficial. -------------- Excellent, thank you, that's what I like to hear. :-) ------------------------- N: > I spoke about my journey in Egypt and Turkey where we profited from Kh. Sujin's advice on many topics. Why would I think: is this conventional, is this on ultimates? That makes life needlessly complicated. I agree with you on what I highlighted above, of course. > ------------------------- I suppose the main difference between your attitude and mine is that you are prepared to leave minor differences in understanding aside, whereas I insist on thrashing them out. To my, obsessive, mind the idea of a conventional teaching from the Buddha is a conflict in terms. Either there are *only* conditioned dhammas, or there *none*.:-) Ken H #98866 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" kenhowardau Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hi Ken, Nina, Scott and all, > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" kenhowardau@ wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > Until now it never mattered much to me either. But now that I think > > about it, the theory of an intermediate existence would have to imply >an existence outside the five khandhas, wouldn't it?. > > Why? > > > > That would turn the whole Dhamma on its head! > > No because the Gandhabba is made of khandas like everyone else. > --------------- If that is the case then I am like you; I don't know what all the fuss is about. --------------------- A: > Can someone explain to me, why would intermidiate existence refute anicca, dukkha, anatta? Why can't there be momentary cittas (cuti citta, patisandhi & so on) in Gandhabba as well? --------------------- I am not the right person to be answering this question because I haven't been following the thread very closely. But I am still assuming that the so-called intermediate life is one in which there are no khandhas. Otherwise, as you say, what would it matter? It would be just one more realm to add to the list! I think that anyone who insisted there could be a life without khandhas must also be hoping that Nibbana was a heavenly realm in which khandha-free beings could live eternally. Ken H #98867 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" truth_aerator Hi Ken, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > --------------------- > A: > Can someone explain to me, why would intermidiate existence refute > anicca, dukkha, anatta? Why can't there be momentary cittas (cuti citta, > patisandhi & so on) in Gandhabba as well? > --------------------- > > I am not the right person to be answering this question because I > haven't been following the thread very closely. But I am still assuming > that the so-called intermediate life is one in which there are no > khandhas. I've never heard that part that Gandhabba has no khandas. Those khandas are anicca-dukkha-anatta. With metta, Alex #98868 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:28 pm Subject: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" nichiconn Hi Alex, Ken, All, Could this "intemediate state" be considered a form of "post-mortem survival"? Brahmajaala Sutta 2.38. 'There are, monks, some ascetics and Brahmins who [31] proclaim a doctrine of Conscious Post-Mortem Survival, and who do so in sixteen different ways. On what basis? [Wrong views 19-34] 'The declare that the self after death is healthy and consciousna (1) material, (2) immaterial, (3) both material and immaterial, (4) neither material nor immaterial, (5) finite, (6) infinite, (7) both, (8) neither, (9) of uniform perception, (10) of varied perception, (11) of limited perception, (12) of unlimited perception, (13) wholly happy, (14) wholly miserable, (15) both, (16) neither. 2.39. 'These are the sixteen ways in which these ascetics and Brahmins proclaim a doctrine of conscious post-mortem survival. There is no other way. 3.1. 'There are, monks, some ascetics and Brahmins who proclaim a doctrine of Unconscious Post-Mortem Survival, and they do so in eight ways. On what basis? 3.2. [Wrong views 35-42] 'They declare that the self after death is healthy and unconscious and (1) material, (2) immaterial, (3) both, (4) neither, (5) finite, (6) infinite, (7) both, (8) neither. 3.3. 'These are the eight ways in which these ascetics and Brahmins proclaim a doctrine of Unconscious Post-Mortem Survival. There is no other way. 3.5. 'There are some ascetics and Brahmins who declare a doctrine of Neither-Conscious-nor-Unconscious Post-Mortem Survival, and they do so in eight ways. On what basis? 3.6. [Wrong views 43-50] 'They declare that the self after death is healthy and neither conscious nor unconscious and (1) material, (2) immaterial, (3) both, (4) neither, (5) finite, (6) infinite, (7) both, (8) neither. 3.7. 'These are the eight ways in which these ascetics and brahmins proclaim a doctrine of Neither-Conscious-Nor-Un-Conscious Post-Mortem Survival. There is no other way. repeats for each of the 62 views: ...this is merely the feeling of those who do not know and see, the worry and vacillation of those immersed in craving ... 3.71. 'With regard to all of these ..., [45] they experience these feelings by repeated contact through the six sense-bases; feeling conditions craving; craving conditions clinging; clinging conditions becoming; becoming conditions birth; birth conditions ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, sadness and distress. 'When, monks, a monk understands as they really are the arising and passing away of the six bases of contact, their attraction and peril, and the deliverance from them, he knows that which goes beyond all these views. peace, connie #98869 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 12:15 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, For the development of vipassanå the conditions are different from the conditions for the development of calm. The conditions for the development of vipassanå are: association with the right friend who can explain the Dhamma, listening, considering and testing the meaning of what one has heard. In this way there can be the correct understanding of the Eightfold Path. If there is sappåya-sampajañña which knows what is suitable for the development of right understanding it will develop. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Saîåyatana-vagga, Third Fifty, Chapter V, § 146, Helpful) about the “sappåya” which leads to that which should be valued most highly: the eradication of defilements. This “sappåya”, this helpful condition, is the perception of impermanence. We read that the Buddha said to the monks: ‘I will teach you, monks, a way that is helpful for Nibbåna. Do you listen to it. And what, monks, is that way? Herein, monks, a monk regards the eye as impermanent. He regards visible object, eye-consciousness, eye-contact, as impermanent. That pleasant or unpleasant or indifferent feeling which arises by eye- contact–that also he regards as impermanent. He regards the ear…the nose…the tongue, savours, tongue- consciousness, tongue-contact as impermanent. That pleasant or unpleasant or indifferent feeling, which arises by tongue-contact– that also he regards as impermanent. He regards the body...he regards the mind, mind-states, mind- consciousness, mind-contact as impermanent. The pleasant or unpleasant or indifferent feeling…arising therefrom–he regards that also as impermanent. This, monks, is the way that is helpful for Nibbåna.’ The impermanence of the realities which appear through the six doors cannot be realized immediately. First the rúpa which appears has to be realized as rúpa and the nåma which appears has to be realized as nåma. Their arising and falling away cannot be realized if one cannot clearly discern their different characteristics. This sutta reminds us to at least begin with awareness of realities such as visible object, seeing, feeling or attachment, of the realities which appear now. That is the condition which is helpful to gain more understanding. ******* Nina. #98870 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 12:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Assignment / was Re: characteristic of thinking nilovg Dear Ken, Op 1-jul-2009, om 0:08 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > To my, obsessive, mind the idea of a conventional teaching from the > Buddha is a conflict in terms. Either there are *only* conditioned > dhammas, or there *none*.:-) ------ N: How is it if we replace conventional teaching by: Suttanta method. In the Co this is what I come across mostly. both in the suttanta and the Abhidhamma there is Suttanta method and Abhidhamma method. I do not read about conventional teaching as such. There are some texts stating about the two kinds of truths, etc. as quoted before. But what I see more often is the two kinds of method of teaching as I just mentioned. This may solve any dilemma. Nina. #98871 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 30-jun-2009, om 22:45 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > N: Provided there is no hidden idea of self behind it all. > > Nina. > > Of course there is no hidden idea of Self, doer or controller. > > As I've stated in other posts: > Self View (and rites & ritual belief) is not a factor, it is an > *obstacle* to meditation. ------- N: But I think that we have to go into details: what exactly do we take for self at this moment? There is seeing, but do we know seeing as only an element devoid of self? Or is there still an idea of: I see? The same about feeling, we may feel happy at this moment. Do we think of my happy feeling? These are serious questions we do have to ask ourselves time and again. Seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, heat, all these realities have to be known and understood. And they can only be understood as theu are when they appear at the present moment. ------ Nina. #98872 From: "sprlrt" Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 1:19 am Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) sprlrt Dear Nina and Mike, I'm ok, thanks for enquiring - Alberto #98873 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 2:59 am Subject: [dsg] Assignment / was Re: characteristic of thinking kenhowardau Hi Nina, Thanks, but I don't have a dilemma. The fact that there are only dhammas means that there can never be an instruction - or a set of directions of any kind. Dhammas can't be told to do anything. Ken H > N: How is it if we replace conventional teaching by: Suttanta method. > In the Co this is what I come across mostly. both in the suttanta and > the Abhidhamma there is Suttanta method and Abhidhamma method. I do > not read about conventional teaching as such. There are some texts > stating about the two kinds of truths, etc. as quoted before. But > what I see more often is the two kinds of method of teaching as I > just mentioned. > This may solve any dilemma. > Nina. > #98874 From: "Dr. Han Tun" Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 3:47 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (29) hantun1 Physical Phenomena (29) Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas) Questions and comments are welcome. -------------------- The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas) So long as there are conditions for birth we have to be born and to experience pleasant or unpleasant objects. It is kamma that produces rebirth-consciousness as well as seeing, hearing and the other sense-impressions arising throughout our life. For the experience of objects through the senses there have to be sense-organs and these are ruupas produced by kamma as well. The sense-organs (pasaada ruupas) are physical results of kamma, whereas seeing, hearing and the other sense-impressions are naama, vipaakacittas which are the mental results of kamma. [Note 1] Visible object and also the ruupa which is eyesense are conditions for seeing. Eyesense does not know anything since it is ruupa, but it is a necessary condition for seeing. Eyesense is a ruupa in the eye, capable of receiving visible object, so that citta can experience it. For hearing, the experience of sound, there has to be earsense, a ruupa in the ear, capable of receiving sound. There must be smelling-sense for the experience of odour, tastingsense for the experience of flavour and bodysense for the experience of tangible object. Thus, there are five kinds of sense-organs. As regards the eye, the "Atthasaalinii" (II, Book II, Ch III, 306) distinguishes between the eye as "compound organ" and as "sentient organ", namely the ruupa which is eyesense, situated in the eye. [Note 2] The eye as "compound organ" is described as follows: "... a lump of flesh is situated in the cavity of the eye, bound by the bone of the cavity of the eye below, by the bone of the brow above, by the eye-peaks on both sides, by the brain inside, by the eyelashes outside.... Al-though the world perceives the eye as white, as (of a certain) bigness, extension, width, they do not know the real sentient eye, but only the physical basis thereof. That lump of flesh situated in the cavity of the eye is bound to the brain by sinewy threads. Therein are white, black, red, extension, cohesion, heat and mobility. The eye is white from the abundance of phlegm, black from that of bile, red from that of blood, rigid from the element of extension, fluid from that of cohesion, hot from that of heat, and oscillating from that of mobility. Such is the compound organ of the eye...." [Note 1] See Introduction. [Note 2] In Paali: cakkhu pasaada ruupa. --------------------- Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas) to be continued. with metta, Han #98875 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 3:56 am Subject: Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Hi Alex, Ken, All, > Could this "intemediate state" be considered a form of "post-mortem survival"? -------------- Hi Connie, That sounds very likely to me. Without knowing exactly what the discussion is about, I assume that the 'intermediate state' theory involves some kind of atta belief. So it would have to be one of the two extremes, and it doesn't sound like the non-survival one. Ken H #98876 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/30/2009 2:34:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: I had a had disk crash > and had to reformat the c-drive. I've lost loads of software, all my > documents and photos including family pix and much more. I'm working on this at > the moment. > > With metta, > Howard Did you try to recover the deleted files ? Apparently there is a method and programs like traceerase and perhaps many more. ----------------------------------------------------- I found that out too late. (I was unable to boor the computer, though, so no programs could run at all.) -------------------------------------------------- Also, do you do dvd-backups? It is a good idea to keep backing up all of one's files. -------------------------------------------------- I did not, but I WILL in the future! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- I wish you manage to restore them. ----------------------------------------------- Thanks, but too late. -------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98877 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Assignment / was Re: characteristic of thinking upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 6/30/2009 3:08:48 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: I suppose the main difference between your attitude and mine is that you are prepared to leave minor differences in understanding aside, whereas I insist on thrashing them out. To my, obsessive, mind the idea of a conventional teaching from the Buddha is a conflict in terms. Either there are *only* conditioned dhammas, or there *none*.:-) ============================== I think of it this way (using a conventional analogy): An automobile is an assembly of assemblies of components, none of which can be driven, but the automobile can be driven. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98878 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) nilovg Hi Howard, Op 1-jul-2009, om 15:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I found that out too late. (I was unable to boor the computer, though, > so no programs could run at all.) ------- N: The technician showed me a way to get deep into the system with bibliothek, it is kind of back up in the computer. But better call a technician. They sure can retrieve things. Sorry about your family pics. Nina. #98879 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Assignment / was Re: characteristic of thinking nilovg Dear Ken, Op 1-jul-2009, om 11:59 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > Thanks, but I don't have a dilemma. The fact that there are only > dhammas means that there can never be an instruction - or a set of > directions of any kind. Dhammas can't be told to do anything. ------- n: No, we cannot order: sati come forward, as Ven. Dhammdharo said. But wise words of a friend can be a helpful condition. We listen to a teaching, if you prefer this word instead of instruction. There are several conditions operating. As Jon just now reminded us: also merit in the past, kusala kamma in the past. Nina. #98880 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 6:50 am Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) scottduncan2 Dear All, Regarding: H: "I had a had disk crash and had to reformat the c-drive..." Scott: My computer has crashed now too so I'll be out of commission for some while as well. :-( Sincerely, Scott. #98881 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 7:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 30-jun-2009, om 22:45 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > N: Provided there is no hidden idea of self behind it all. > > > Nina. > > > > Of course there is no hidden idea of Self, doer or controller. > > > > As I've stated in other posts: > > Self View (and rites & ritual belief) is not a factor, it is an > > *obstacle* to meditation. > ------- > N: But I think that we have to go into details: what exactly do we > take for self at this moment? There is seeing, but do we know seeing > as only an element devoid of self? Or is there still an idea of: I > see? The same about feeling, we may feel happy at this moment. Do we > think of my happy feeling? These are serious questions we do have to > ask ourselves time and again. Seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, > hardness, heat, all these realities have to be known and understood. > And they can only be understood as theu are when they appear at the > present moment. > > ------ > Nina. Dear Nina, Sarah and all interested, In proper meditation, Self view of "I hear, I think, I intend, I want this to be this way or that way" is an obstacle which hinders meditation and feeds the hindrances. The more Self view one has, the harder the meditation. The less Self view, the easier the meditation is. Without any self view, meditation becomes much much easier. And without any fetters, Jhana is as easy as saying ABC. With metta, Alex #98882 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) upasaka_howard Thanks, Nina! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/1/2009 6:44:07 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 1-jul-2009, om 15:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I found that out too late. (I was unable to boor the computer, though, > so no programs could run at all.) ------- N: The technician showed me a way to get deep into the system with bibliothek, it is kind of back up in the computer. But better call a technician. They sure can retrieve things. Sorry about your family pics. Nina. #98883 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/1/2009 6:51:00 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear All, Regarding: H: "I had a had disk crash and had to reformat the c-drive..." Scott: My computer has crashed now too so I'll be out of commission for some while as well. :-( Sincerely, Scott. ================================== Sorry to hear this. As you might imagine, I commiserate! :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98884 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 8:32 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (22-23) nichiconn Dear Friends, the sutta continues: CSCD < Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 12:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 1-jul-2009, om 16:46 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > In proper meditation, Self view of "I hear, I think, I intend, I > want this to be this way or that way" is an obstacle which hinders > meditation and feeds the hindrances. ------ N: O.K. you see it as an obstacle. So, what to do now to remove this obstacle? To begin with we can understand that there is no self doing anything, no self removing the obstacle of self view. Don't you agree that it should be known and understood when exactly we take the realities appearing through the six doorways for self. We see time and again. Is it not advisable to begin now and find out more about the nature of seeing: it sees visible object and it arises because of considitions. Nobody can make it arise. ------ Nina #98886 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 12:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) jonoabb Hi Howard > These are your own idea of what the conditions for the development of > insight are; I don't think you will find such a set of conditions mentioned in > the suttas (or other texts). > ============================== > I do think so. but I have no time for this now. I had a had disk crash > and had to reformat the c-drive. I've lost loads of software, all my > documents and photos including family pix and much more. I'm working on this at > the moment. Sorry to hear that. Good luck with the recovery process. Jon #98887 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 12:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) jonoabb Hi Scott > Scott: My computer has crashed now too so I'll be out of commission for some while as well. :-( It must be catching. Good luck to you, too. Jon #98888 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 9:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. ksheri3 Good Morning Alex, I think you miss the point that Nina is focusing on: Nina is specifying the need a person has to actualize what they see in terms of themselves which implies a self but does not actually prove a belief in a self. In Nina's case the "self" is non-existant to the simple cognition of something actually being, you, Alex, take Nina's statement and move it into a realm of "higher consciousness" which only you have, at that moment. You speak of AGGREGATES which have no way of being formed and receiving the NAME which gives credeance to NAME & FORM. Nina, herself, speaks of things which are "out there" and which come into contact with our sensory perceptions. This is a fundamental aspect of the TWO TRUTHS and gives us ability to speak of such things as being RELATIVE or ULTIMATE. This is dangerous since the ability to pervert or deviate the consciousness as being a Relative Truth or an Ultimate Truth is highly maliable. It's like playdo where the shape can be created, manifested, into any form the practitioner chooses i.e. a child's game. Morphing is another aspect of this concept but morphing takes a deliberate attempt to perform the manifestation which then brings upon it an entirely new set of rules and regulations. IMO, you trivialize the foundational upon which the structure is built so as to satiate your need to gratify a tangent that you focus upon by going so deep that it becomes rediculous to even bother with since, in your case, EVERYTHING is PRE-SUP0SE AND PREDETERMINED, again, this just angers the hell out of me by means of glorifying this hallucination and this perversion called a CASTE SYSTEM which any fool can easily see reduced to nothing by the actions of King Henry the 8th who chose to get rid of the Catholic dictates so that he could marry another woman, thus creating the Church of England. Why put such useless perspectives forward in time of turmoil when it's totally clear that robots are doing nothing more than "FOLLOWING THE YELLOW BRICK ROAD" or, as all communists adore, "going along to get along"? I think that I gave proper creadence and respectability to this same topic over many years of showing the equality to the HO Chi Min Trail and to the subtle and insidious act of CONDITIONING, which should at least raise the consciousness that what you see and feel is nothing more than an illusion and nothing more than a reflection of your past history. While it may seem that "LET IT GO" is an easy statement to attain to actually "letting something go" is an enormous event that must take place within the consciousness of the person who is trying to perform the act. Sure, you or I can hear and accept that a person lied or told a false witness but LETTIN IT GO is something completely different since we are now speaking of something that has been issued/recieved and another thing of getting rid of that which has been received. My interpretation of what Nina speaks of is nothing more than the actuality of VIPISSANA. You may consider Vipissana as nothing more than an aspect but EVEN AS AN ASPECT it has to start with a foundation upon which clarity can be drawn. IMO, you are speaking of the perceptions of previously RESULTANT PHEONOMENA therefore you are not manifesting anything. YOu are simply going along to get along. YOu are taking the book knowledge which was/is given and you are doing nothing more than reading a script that another person has written. It is exactly the same as teaching an infant or a dog that "this action brings forth this pleasurable experience" or maybe even as far out as the concept that 1 + 1 = 2. I'm sure you can find many relationships in the form of 0s and 1s which make up computer language. <...> Open your eyes Alex and at least try to experience the dharma which is put forward. <...> Sorry Nina if I went tooo far in my agitation and frustration with this thing that is soooooo obvious yet is sooooooooo controling of these people that claim to have any knowledge at all in how DEATH IS ISSUED or is it how life is issued? Ah, it's that problem everybody has with the identicle reflection that NIRVANA HAS WITH SAMSARA and/or vice versa. colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: <...> > Dear Nina, Sarah and all interested, > > > In proper meditation, Self view of "I hear, I think, I intend, I want this to be this way or that way" is an obstacle which hinders meditation and feeds the hindrances. > > The more Self view one has, the harder the meditation. > The less Self view, the easier the meditation is. > > Without any self view, meditation becomes much much easier. > And without any fetters, Jhana is as easy as saying ABC. <...> #98889 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 9:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/1/2009 3:38:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard > These are your own idea of what the conditions for the development of > insight are; I don't think you will find such a set of conditions mentioned in > the suttas (or other texts). > ============================== > I do think so. but I have no time for this now. I had a had disk crash > and had to reformat the c-drive. I've lost loads of software, all my > documents and photos including family pix and much more. I'm working on this at > the moment. Sorry to hear that. Good luck with the recovery process. -------------------------------------------------- Thanks! It's been enormous work, but I'm getting there. (Much is gone for good, though. Anicca! ;-) ----------------------------------------------- Jon ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98890 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 4:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. truth_aerator Dear Nina and all, > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 1-jul-2009, om 16:46 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > In proper meditation, Self view of "I hear, I think, I intend, I > > want this to be this way or that way" is an obstacle which >hinders > > meditation and feeds the hindrances. > ------ > N: O.K. you see it as an obstacle. So, what to do now to remove >this obstacle? In the context of sitting meditation, there is letting go, non-interference and wise observation with sati. In vipassana meditation (ala Mahasi) for example you note the namarupa reality using sati and the note is panna. You see just namarupa not a being, not a Self. Often when there is a label of the namarupic reality there is no Self-View present for a learned meditator. > To begin with we can understand that there is no self doing > anything, Sure, there isn't any Self doing meditation or achieving awakening, etc & etc. > Don't you agree that it should be known and understood when exactly >we take the > realities appearing through the six doorways for self. I agree. It is important to be mindful when wrong views pop up and it is important to be mindful that there is only vinnana-namarupa arising. And of course, No Self, is mindful (or unmindful). Just mere phenonema rolls on. Mere phenomena refuses to meditate or meditates. The success of failure of meditation does NOT depend on any Self. It is selfless and fully conditioned dependently co-arisen process of vinnana &namarupa. With metta, Alex #98891 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 7:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Assignment / was Re: characteristic of thinking ken_aitch --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 6/30/2009 3:08:48 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > I suppose the main difference between your attitude and mine is that you > are prepared to leave minor differences in understanding aside, whereas > I insist on thrashing them out. > > To my, obsessive, mind the idea of a conventional teaching from the > Buddha is a conflict in terms. Either there are *only* conditioned > dhammas, or there [are] *none*.:-) > ============================== > I think of it this way (using a conventional analogy): An automobile > is an assembly of assemblies of components, none of which can be driven, but > the automobile can be driven. > Thanks for your help, Howard, but, as I see it, the analogy of an 'assembly of parts' applies only to the presently arisen five khandhas. That's the only assembly that the suttas refer to. They don't allow for anything to be seen as an assembly of various cittas from the past and present. And who would want it any other way? I have inadvertently given people the impression that I have a problem or, dilemma, with it. But, no, I am perfectly content to know there are only the present moment realities - and that any talk of a conventional teaching by the Buddha is a contradiction in terms. Ken H #98892 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 11:38 pm Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, The third sampajañña is gocara-sampajañña. Gocara literally means place or domain. In this case it is not the place where one should stay but “where citta goes”, the object, årammaùa, of the citta. When gocara-sampajañña arises there is comprehension of the object of mindfulness. All realities which appear now through the six doors are the gocara or “domain” of sati of the Eightfold Path. All of the nåmas and the rúpas are included in the four “satipatthånas”, the applications of mindfulness. They are: mindfulness of the body, of feeling, of citta and of dhammas. The object of sati is a paramattha dhamma which appears now, it is not a concept such as a body, a hand or a chair. Some people think that the postures of the body can be object of mindfulness. They think for example that the “sitting rúpa” should be object of mindfulness. Among the twenty-eight kinds of rúpa which are taught in the Abhidhamma there is no sitting rúpa. The body is composed of the four Great Elements and other rúpas which each have their own specific characteristic. The characteristic of hardness or heat may appear, no matter whether one is sitting, standing, walking or laying down. Sitting has no characteristic, it is a concept one has of the whole body which sits. In order to eradicate the idea of self who is sitting there should be awareness of one reality at a time, one nåma or rúpa. We have conditions to think of sitting and we do not have to avoid that, but we should know the difference between the moments we think of concepts such as the whole body and the moments there is awareness of a paramattha dhamma (absolute reality). Is there any object of awareness we do not like and of which we think that it ought not to be object of awareness? Do we “push it aside” and wait until there is another object? For instance, most of us do not like it to be in a hurry. Would we rather not be aware of nåma and rúpa at such moments? Or do we think that we can’t? Is there not a secret tendency not to know objects we dislike? In that way right understanding of realities cannot develop. When we are feeling tired, or angry, or when we are discouraged about the development of satipatthåna, can there be awareness even of such moments? They are only realities arising because of conditions, not self. _______ Nina. #98893 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 11:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. nilovg Dear Alex, I see that you give the subject of anattaa much thought. But as you have said yourself, we do not know the truth by reading. So, for all of us it is difficult to directly realize the truth. Op 2-jul-2009, om 1:44 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Often when there is a label of the namarupic reality there is no > Self-View present for a learned meditator. ----- N: How is it for beginners who are not a learned meditator? We are ignorant worldlings after all. As to label, this is a difficult word, not so clear to me. Labelling seems to be naming, and that is thinking. Nina. #98894 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 2:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > ----- > N: How is it for beginners who are not a learned meditator? The need to hear instruction from knowledgeble meditation masters (not scholars!) AND the suttas. It is also important to have at least a bit of discernment ability for oneself, so that one could discern helpful from not. > As to label, this is a difficult word, not so clear to me. >Labelling seems to be naming, and that is thinking. > Nina. It is NOT thinking or getting lost in thought. It is a tool to be attentive toward the arisen namarupa. At most 10% attention is toward the label and 90%+ toward that namarupa phenomena. With metta, Alex #98895 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 8:19 pm Subject: Re: effort. Buddha quotes. nichiconn Dear Alex, > N: How is it for beginners who are not a learned meditator? > A: The need to hear instruction from knowledgeble meditation masters (not scholars!) AND the suttas. It is also important to have at least a bit of discernment ability for oneself, so that one could discern helpful from not. C: What might be the main consideration or even top five questions you personally would ask (of yourself or the teacher) before you'd even recognize, let alone think about wholeheartedly trusting, that one's meditation mastery &/OR scholarly development? Just thinking of Angulimala's student days. Happily, we seem to agree on there being a "need to hear". peace, connie #98896 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 5:11 pm Subject: Analysis by Permutation! bhikkhu0 Friends The 5 Abilities are Mutually Dependent! The 5 Abilities (indriya) are: The ability of Faith (saddhÄ ) The ability of Energy (viriya ) The ability of Awareness (sati ) The ability of Concentration (samÄdhi ) The ability of Understanding (pañña ) They depend mutually and strengthen each other in forward & reverse causality. The 1st causes the 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th. In parallel all mutually enhances each other! Such are essentially fine examples of co-dependent co-arising! Paticca-samuppÄda: Vice-Versa Causality: One who has faith, is also energetic. One who is energetic, also has faith. One who has faith, is also aware. One who is aware, also has faith. One who has faith, also concentrates. One who concentrates, also has faith. One who has faith, also understands. One who understands, also has faith. One who is energetic, is also aware. One who is aware, is also energetic. One who is energetic, also concentrates. One who concentrates, is also energetic. One who is energetic, also understands. One who understands, is also energetic. One who is energetic, also has faith. One who has faith, is also energetic. One who is aware, also concentrates. One who concentrates, is also aware. One who is aware, also understands. One who understands, is also aware. One who is aware, also has faith. One who has faith, is also aware. One who is aware, is also energetic. One who is energetic, is also aware. One who concentrates, also understands. One who understands, also concentrates. One who concentrates, also has faith. One who has faith, also concentrates. One who concentrates, is also energetic. One who is energetic, also concentrates. One who concentrates, is also aware. One who is aware, also concentrates. One who understands, also has faith. One who has faith, also understands. One who understands, is also energetic. One who is energetic, also understands. One who understands, is also aware. One who is aware, also understands. One who understands, also concentrates. One who concentrates, also understands. by Source: Ven. Sariputta in: The Path of Discrimination: Patidasambhidamagga: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Analysis by Permutation! #98897 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 12:49 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 7 nilovg Dear friends, We understand in theory that everything can be object of awareness, but do we apply this understanding? Wrong practice (sílabbata- paråmåså, translated as clinging to rules and ritual) is a kind of wrong view (ditthi). So long as we are not sotåpanna wrong view has not been eradicated and thus wrong practice can arise. We may think that when we are in the company of many people it is impossible to be aware. Do we try to ignore particular realities we do not think fit to be objects of awareness? We can find out that although we have intellectual understanding about wrong practice such tendencies can still arise. It is essential to be aware also of these moments. If they are not known wrong view cannot be eradicated. If one knows that whatever reality appears now can be object of awareness right understanding can develop. Should we not know seeing, hearing or thinking which appear now? When there are conditions awareness can arise in any situation, also when we are laughing or talking. We read for example in the “Khemaka Sutta” Kindred Sayings (III, Khandhå-vagga, Middle Fifty, Chapter IV, § 89) that the monk Khemaka attained arahatship while he explained Dhamma to others, and that sixty monks who listened attained arahatship as well. We read in the “Satipatthåna Sutta” Middle Length Sayings (I, no.10) that the Buddha, while he was staying among the Kuru people in Kammåssadhamma, spoke to the monks about the “Four Applications of Mindfulness”. We read in the section on Mindfulness of the Body, on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, that the Buddha said: ‘...And again, monks, a monk, when he is setting out or returning is one acting in a clearly conscious way; when he is looking in front or looking around...when he has bent in or stretched out (his arm)...when he is carrying his outer cloak, bowl and robe...when he is eating, drinking, chewing, tasting...when he is obeying the calls of nature...when he is walking, standing, sitting, asleep, awake, talking, silent, he is acting in a clearly conscious way...’ A clearly conscious way is the translation of sati-sampajañña. Is there clear comprehension with regard to the object of right understanding while we are looking in front or looking around? Is there clear comprehension while we are bending or stretching, eating, drinking, walking, standing, sitting, lying down, while we are talking or keeping silent? We may have read this text many times, but do we really apply what the Buddha taught? We need to consider this text often, even if we think that we have understood it already. ****** Nina. #98898 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 1:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. nilovg Dear Alex and friends, Tomorrow I go away for a few days, returning Tuesday. Op 2-jul-2009, om 23:17 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > The need to hear instruction from knowledgeble meditation masters > (not scholars!) AND the suttas. It is also important to have at > least a bit of discernment ability for oneself, so that one could > discern helpful from not. ------- N: Yes, you have to find out for yourself whether what you hear and read is helpful to have at least a beginning detachment from the idea of self. There is citta all the time, but there is a different citta at each moment. Seeing is a citta different from hearing, cittas experience different objects. Seeing experiences visible object, hearing experiences sound. At one moment we may be generous, and the next moment we may be angry, and it seems that we are as it were different personalities. In reality there are different cittas arising because of different conditions. Nobody can be generous or kind on command. Thus we can understand already in theory that cittas do not belong to a self. It is understanding that can develop and we can begin at this moment, in daily life. ---------- > > N> As to label, this is a difficult word, not so clear to me. > >Labelling seems to be naming, and that is thinking. > > A: It is NOT thinking or getting lost in thought. It is a tool to > be attentive toward the arisen namarupa. At most 10% attention is > toward the label and 90%+ toward that namarupa phenomena. ------- N: I am inclined to avoid the expression namarupa, since they are, each one of them, different realities. Nama experiences something and rupa does not experience anything. When we take them together as a whole, there cannot be detachment from the idea of self IMO. Labeling: I think that each nama and rupa has a different characteristic, and these can be directly experienced when they appear one at a time, without naming or labelling them. In that way we can learn that they are only elements, nama elements and rupa elements. I think that while there is attention to the label, it is thinking, and while we are thinking about nama or rupa they have fallen away already. They arise and fall away so rapidly. Instead of labelling I would like to emphasize understanding of the characteristics that appear. Only what appears at the present moment, one dhamma at a time, can be investigated and understood. ------ Nina. #98899 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" nilovg Dear Alex, Op 1-jul-2009, om 1:45 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > I've never heard that part that Gandhabba has no khandas. > Those khandas are anicca-dukkha-anatta. ------- N: Different people attach different meanings to Gandhabba. Here is Ven. Bodhi transl of M , 38,Note 411 (p. 1232), quoting the co: Thus, no mentioning of an intermediate state here. A being in a certain plane will be reborn in the human plane, and there have to be the right conditions for rebirth. That is all. ----- Nina. #98900 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 2:24 am Subject: E card from Italy 3 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Jon and I are in Viareggio, the town that had the terrible gas explosion the other day. We're expecting Alberto to arrive anytime now. On Wednesday (the day after the accident), we had quite a nightmare of a journey getting here. Without going into all the details, our anticipated long journey took a lot longer. Instead of the intercity train out of Rome, we ended up on the slow shuffle with lots of side trains, buses and treks with our bags as well. It's all been yet another reminder (do we need more?) of how we just spend all day thinking of ourselves, our plans, our difficulties. There was a lot of 'my inconvenience', 'my hip pain', 'my hunger and thirst' all day... Yesterday (on a lovely boat-trip - gaines and losses all the time, obesessed as we are with worldly conditions), we made friends with two families - one Italian and one Polish - who'd both been staying preilously close to the explosion and who'd been petrified by the flames and heat. They'd been evacuated in the middle of the night and only been spared (along with much of the rest of the town) by the direction of the wind towards the mountains. One man in the room next to the Polish family had opened his window to look and had had his face severely burnt.... Yes, we know - anything can happen on holiday or at home, but still, one citta at a time....and death can come anytime, just another citta, followed by another one, 'just like now'! No time for anything 'intermediate'.... If anyone has anything to suggest or question for 'Alberto's talk', pls write quickly. His two hour plus journey each way is now being extended with the train station closure (though we've just heard a rumour that one line is open - no idea if its his), so we'd really like to make it worthwile for him.....and it's very, very hot outside here! I have my camera ready and look forward to sending an e-card this evening after he leaves if pos. Tomorrow we go to Lucca for the big family reunion for my mother's 80th. Metta, Sarah ======= #98901 From: sarahprocterabbott@... Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 2:41 am Subject: Re: Trip to Sweden - my holidays sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, You kindly send my an off-list note. I hope you don't mind if I send my comments to DSG so that 0thers may also be able to send their good wishes and dhamma reminders before you leave tomorrow. --- On Mon, 29/6/09, Lukas Szmidt wrote: > Hi Sarah, I am not sure I answered your last letter, but it > miss somewhere. > So for sure I wont come to Bkk this year. maybe next year > with Nina on February. ... S: I hope others may consider doing the same - Nina and we're talking about the last two weeks in Feb. ... > I have my flight to Sweden at 1 July from Warsaw and I am > really frighten about this, because I really dont like > flying, It gives me the creeps. .... S: We all have lots of fears, but it is just thinking with dosa as you know. Do you have an i-pod (or equivalent?). It's great (I find) to listen to dhamma while flying. The Dhamma is the only healer for all our fears, worries and other akusala....I only sleep on flights when I listen to Dhamma too! .... > I hope that maybe you can give me some Dhamma talk before I > will set off? ..... S: Actually, it's one's own understanding that gives one the 'Dhamma talk'. As you know, there's only ever the present moment, this moment now - just one reality appearing at a time. The plane, Sweden, work, airports - all a dream, a fantasy. At the moments of awareness and understanding, there's no need for any other 'Dhamma talk'. Having said that, the contact with good Dhamma friends is very important - we all need the good influences in our life. So please send us an e-card whenever you have a chance to get to an internet cafe and very best wishes with your work. Here in Italy, there are also many migrant workers. The Polish family we spent time with yesterday were very interesting. She's doing some work and research at the University of Naples. .... > p.s > I am constantly trying to change things. I want them to be > more convenient to me. There is no understanding and I have > to be with this present moment. .... S: Yes, this is so true for us all.....We all think all day about our own convenience (see my last e-card) - it's called lobha! No wonder we're so often unhappy when things don't work to plan... .... > What about feeling of depresion and sadness? What's with > mental unplesant feeling that is very unplesant? When I feel > pain there is a Self that feels it. There is the idea of > self and I am suffer. .... S: Again, it comes back to lobha and thinking... Lukas, you have something much, much more precious than pleasant feeling and that is a lot of accumulated wisdom and understanding of namas and rupas. This is the only gem that matters. When you share your understanding of dhamma with us all, there's no unpleasant feeling. When there's wise consideration, no unpleasant feeling. The unpleasant feeling seems to last because we dwell on it, but actually, it only ever last for a moment - and then gone completely. We see it's all the work of the mind. For example, like on my travel day - one moment of unpleasant bodily feeling, followed by so many moments of dosa on account of it. So very foolish! Smile:). Call to Alberto - almost at the train station (must be open)! Must dash.. Best wishes, my good friend... Metta, Sarah ========= #98902 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 7 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/3/2009 3:50:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, We understand in theory that everything can be object of awareness, but do we apply this understanding? Wrong practice (sílabbata- paråmåså, translated as clinging to rules and ritual) is a kind of wrong view (ditthi). So long as we are not sotåpanna wrong view has not been eradicated and thus wrong practice can arise. We may think that when we are in the company of many people it is impossible to be aware. Do we try to ignore particular realities we do not think fit to be objects of awareness? We can find out that although we have intellectual understanding about wrong practice such tendencies can still arise. It is essential to be aware also of these moments. If they are not known wrong view cannot be eradicated. ================================== I very much agree with the foregoing. There is a tendency to NOT "LOOK" at what is unpleasant. It is a self-imposed unknowing and avoidance. Now, I will admit that there are circumstances in which the psyche is very fragile, and temporary avoidance may be advisable, but this should rarely happen. In general, staying alert and aware and not avoiding is the best policy. One benefit of calming the mind through sila, through listening to and studying wise teachings, and/or through meditative cultivation is to support remaining present and attentive to whatever arises - pleasant, neutral, or unpleasant. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98903 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 12:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] E card from Italy 3 upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 7/3/2009 5:36:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Tomorrow we go to Lucca for the big family reunion for my mother's 80th. =============================== Have a wonderful time! (To put it differently, may all the cittas in all the mind streams involved be pleasant! ;-)) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98904 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 1:00 am Subject: Slight Correction Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 7 upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - The last sentence in the following is slightly garbled. I will correct it below. In a message dated 7/3/2009 7:49:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: I very much agree with the foregoing. There is a tendency to NOT "LOOK" at what is unpleasant. It is a self-imposed unknowing and avoidance. Now, I will admit that there are circumstances in which the psyche is very fragile, and temporary avoidance may be advisable, but this should rarely happen. In general, staying alert and aware and not avoiding is the best policy. One benefit of calming the mind through sila, through listening to and studying wise teachings, and/or through meditative cultivation is to support remaining present and attentive to whatever arises - pleasant, neutral, or unpleasant. What should have appeared is "One benefit of calming the mind through sila, through listening to wise teachers and studying wise teachings, and/or through meditative cultivation is to support remaining present and attentive to whatever arises - pleasant, neutral, or unpleasant." With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98905 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 7:58 am Subject: Re: Slight Correction Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 7 nilovg Hi Howard, glad your computer seems in order now. Op 3-jul-2009, om 14:00 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What should have appeared is "One benefit of calming the mind through > sila, through listening to wise teachers and studying wise teachings, > and/or through meditative cultivation is to support remaining > present and > attentive to whatever arises - pleasant, neutral, or unpleasant. ------ N: I did not see any difference between the two versions, but I may not be 'attentive' enough. I am glad you see that avoiding knowing akusala is not helpful. No, because it has arisen already when we are aware of it. One expression is a difficult one to me: That 'remaining', you know. There 'may' be an element of planning here. Sati arises because of its own conditions, and we never know when, it is by surprise, IMO. So many distractions for a layfollower in daily life, busy all day long. Still, when the conditions are right sati 'can' arise so long as we do not expect it, hope for it. And then, it is in the first place right understanding of whatever appears now that counts. Nina. #98906 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 8:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] E card from Italy 3 nilovg Dear Sarah (and Lukas), Op 3-jul-2009, om 11:24 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Jon and I are in Viareggio, the town that had the terrible gas > explosion the other day. We're expecting Alberto to arrive anytime > now. ------ N: What a good account of all the trials and Dhamma reminders. And good points you wrote to Lukas. It is so much about life. I hope Lukas will stay in contact with all of us. Looking forward to your account of the meeting with Alberto. Have a very nice stay in Lucca, that is the favorite place of my nephews. Warmest wishes also to your mother, Nina. #98907 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 8:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. truth_aerator >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > > Dear Alex and friends, > Instead of labelling I would like to emphasize understanding of the >characteristics that appear. Only what appears at the present >moment, one dhamma at a time, can be investigated and understood. > ------ > Nina. Dear Nina and all, Can you please explain how the above is performed? How exactly do you investigate & understand the arisen dhamma? What do you do. How exactly do you understand the characteristic that appear? With metta, Alex #98908 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 10:43 am Subject: e-card from Italy 4 - our lovely day with Alberto sarahprocter... Dear Friends, A short while ago we saw Alberto off at the train station after spending a lovely day together. We were so very glad and honoured that he took the almost 3 hour journey (one way) to visit us here, not even knowing when he left what the train situation in Viareggio would be. As it turned out, he was able to make it all the way by train. We greeted each other like old friends, walked, sat near the market sipping water and eating delicious fish, lazed in our small hotel room (whilst just too hot to be outside)- nearly all the time discussing Dhamma topics, checking any precise terms on the computer. We then sat around discussing more topics (and also getting to know each other better) upstarirs on the roof terrace of our hotel, then when it had cooled sufficiently, walked along the beach (as best one can in Viareggio with all its private strips of beach!), swam, lazed and the it was time to head back to the station. We laughed, agreed often, argued at times like friends, felt sleepy together at times and just had fun in a very natural way. Alberto has been studying and considering the Dhamma for a long time in England, Sri Lanka and Italy and his confidence and keen interest in the Abhidhamma and in paramattha dhammas as being 'the all' at this moment has been very keenly accumulated after years/decades of following other ideas and practices. He stressed the importance of understanding now and in not forgetting the purpose of the Teachings. What a delight and very helpful for me too! Hopefully Jon will be able to upload a couple of pics As we have to get ready for tomorrow, I'll separately just list some of the topics of discussion (like I do in Bangkok sometimes) and ask Alberto to start filling in the details:). Metta, Sarah ======== #98909 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. nilovg Dear Alex, good questions. I answer when I am back from my outing. Nina. Op 3-jul-2009, om 17:51 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Can you please explain how the above is performed? #98910 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 12:33 pm Subject: e-card from Italy 5a - discussion topics with Alberto sarahprocter... Dear Alberto & all, Thank you again for all the great discussions. Do hope you have time and feel inclined to elaborate on some of these topics (any order, any number of posts is fine). Many of the topics wandered off on various tangents... 1. Reminders on patience- train delays, crossing roads... Actually, I think Alberto's trip was almost 4 hrs each way according to my note - and that with the station open...I do hope you got a rest on the return, Alberto. At least you had the Dhamma to listen to.... You mentioned you used to meditate for up to 4 hrs at a time before 'Survey', now it's 'train meditation' - ha! [Btw, Sukin - A. doesn't have a hard copy of 'Survey' - is there still one left in Bkk to send to him?] 2. Base or Foundation for satipatthana, A's discussion with Mike on this, e.g. #98835, 3 meanings of satipatthana, dosa as base... pannatti as base? 3. Paramattha vs Sammuti sacca, A's discussion with Connie, e.g. #98724 Sammuti sacca - conventional truth as in 'the sun's shining' or 'do's and don't's', 'prescriptive *and* descriptive', precepts - rules or training, Vinaya as sammuti sacca?, suttas and Abhidhamma as paramattha sacca? Kusala only as sammuti sacca? Lots of friendly disagreements. General ignorance about sanketa as in sanketavaccana.m sacca.m...sanketa -engagement? assignation? Vohara - describing paramattha? And actually, Connie, what's wrong with 'actually' in dhammana.m bhuutalakkhana..... 4. Natural decisive support conditions (pakatupanissaya paccaya) and concepts as condition. Also, 'timeless' - the Dhamma as akaliko, 'timeless' - as valid at anytime. Nibbana as timeless? Concepts? Asankhata - nibbana, concepts and wide open space.... Some asabhava dhammas as sankhata, nibbana as sabhava, so not the same. More on concepts as condition - climate, food etc as referred to in the Patthana? Here, pointing to dhammas or concepts. The role of sanna in marking concepts to act as condition. 5. Mike's summary of A's interesting comments: hearing + concept + wise consideration + accumulated panna (via pariyatti) = patipatti aka satipatthana. "NO!" For A., too much like algebra, sammuti sacca - do's and don't's ??? Lots of gesticulating and laughter at this point! 6. Lukas's letter and comments - (and I'd got the wrong date and hadn't realised Lukas had left already when I wrote back today, late....) A. - understanding is most important, but not easy. We'll never understand dosa if we don't experience it. 7. Discussion about being sensible in daily life - just as we brush teeth, also we sometimes need to take a pill if overwhelmed with fear etc on flights. Dhamma *in* daily life... to be contd... Metta Sarah ======== #98911 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 12:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from Italy 5b - discussion topics with Alberto sarahprocter... Dear Friends, contd. 8. Getting past fixed ideas of meditation....people's strong ideas on environmental issues...accumulations. Why do I mind what others think or say in these regards? For that matter, why do I fuss after friends who've left the list? Different cittas ....let them go...:-/ Attachments to concepts, more pannatti! Most people have no interest in the teachings - so much ditthi... 9. A beggar lady passed at lunch....Dana can't be ordered or determined. I half-heartedly offered something too late....accumulations... Lots of other accumulations showing themselves all day. Discussion about the complex link between kamma and pakatupanissaya paccaya and a few other conditions too. 10. Past discussions with B.Bodhi and others with regard to agreement on 'not self', but not on 'not control'. 11. On the beach, a vendor passed selling jewellery. A. asked if we saw anything? Just visible object....like the cookies.....always 'soemthing':). 12. Discussion on Sangiiti Sutta and comy #98648 and the passage about the 4 arousala of craving - to robes, alms, lodging and "being and non-being (iti- bhavabhava-hetu)". DA's gloss to 'oil, honey, ghee, etc' - would make more sense, referring to medicines...A suggests sticking to the sutta... commentaries more likely to be in error...:-/ 13. Not all who listen to the Truth appreciate it - ditthi - not appreciating the ariyans. 14. Clouds and delays - just dhammas, how can they upset you? 15. Kusala without panna (nana vipayutta kusala ) A: Do you know that? 16. Any value in understanding the kusala in kusala vipaka? Or does it just mean the result of kusala kamma? 4 jatis - kusala, akusala, vipaka, kiriya. 17. Kusala kamma, akusala kamma, imperturbable kamma committed through body, speech and mind. What's the Pali term for imperturbable and does it refer to any jhana cittas or only arupa jhana cittas? Forgetting of details not relevant to this moment. 18. Anagamis reborn in the Pure Abodes (and other arupa brahma realms according to CMA - Pure Abodes, only for anagamis). Which kamma, or can we just say no conditions to be reborn anywhere else, indicating the strength of the panna accumulated. As Nina #98632 said, as discussed with KS, no need for the anagami to have cultivated jhana, but we can't know... 19. Lukas's qus on Path of Discrim. and body parts to be known, abhinneyya - just like in Satip Sutta - all pointing to satip. All agreed! Also kasina - not nec. referring to samatha at all. Under satip. referring to 'all' dhammas, not a concept. 20. Cemetry contemplations and various cemetery practices people wrongly follow, thinking this is the way to understand death and cemetry contemplations as inc. in the Satip Sutta. Theravada groups in Italy purue these too... ***** Thanks again, Alberto...we found it most enjoyable and were so happy to meet you. We do hope you weren't too hungry or thirsty on your return trip, but know you'll have had many opportunities for lobha contemplations if so:). Metta, Sarah p.s We went out to wave your train off, but you had probably already 'let go' of the pannatti:-)). ============ #98912 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 3:43 pm Subject: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hello Nina, Sarah, Jon, Ken, Scott and all, While it is true that mindfulness in initial stages can be developed in lay life, it can only go so far. "Ananda, a monk does not shine if he delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; if he delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group. Indeed, Ananda, it is impossible that a monk who delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; who delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group, will obtain at will — without difficulty, without trouble — the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening. But it is possible that a monk who lives alone, withdrawn from the group, can expect to obtain at will — without difficulty, without trouble — the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening. "Indeed, Ananda, it is impossible that a monk who delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; who delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group, will enter & remain in the awareness-release that is temporary and pleasing, or in the awareness-release that is not-temporary and beyond provocation. But it is possible that a monk who lives alone, withdrawn from the group, can expect to enter & remain in the awareness-release that is temporary and pleasing, or in the awareness-release that is not-temporary and beyond provocation. While he is living thus secluded, brahmans & householders from town & countryside visit him. When they visit him, he gets smitten with things that infatuate, falls into greed, and reverts to luxury. This is called one following the holy life who is undone with the undoing of one who leads the holy life. He has been struck down by evil, unskillful qualities that defile, that lead to further becoming, are troublesome, ripen in pain, and lead to future birth, aging, & death. Such is the undoing of one who leads the holy life. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.122.than.html In the Panna sutta, one of the conditions for wisdom is "Having heard the Dhamma, he achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html There is a necessity for the seclusion is that it allows one to develop really deep Samadhi (something that is VERY hard to do as a lay follower living a full household life). In upanisa sutta and many other suttas the Buddha says that Samadhi is the cause of "seeing as it has become" Samadhi -> yathabhutananadassana According to Upanisa sutta you simply can't see things as they are until you reach Samadhi of proper strength. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html ""For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.002.than.html The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness." - SN22.5 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.005.than.html So all the talk about "seeing realities appearing now" is a natural and selfless (no-control) result of SAMADHI. In DN29 (or thereabouts) it says that 4 possible results of Jhana are stream entry through Arhatship . Thus, verily, monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the no-whither way. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo AN6.64 In dozens of suttas the path for Arhatship is described as being virtuous and secluded monk who develops various factors, reaches 4th Jhana and achieves triple knowledge. With metta, Alex #98913 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 6:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from Italy 5a - discussion topics with Alberto m_nease Hi Sarah, Alberto and All, sarah abbott wrote: > 5. Mike's summary of A's interesting comments: > hearing + concept + wise consideration + accumulated panna (via > pariyatti) = patipatti aka satipatthana. "NO!" For A., too much like > algebra, sammuti sacca - do's and don't's ??? Lots of gesticulating and > laughter at this point! Jolly good! Ha ha and ta ta, then. mike #98914 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 8:21 pm Subject: e-card from Italy 5a - discussion topics with Alberto nichiconn Hi Sarah, Alberto, A: Duve saccaani akkhaasi, sambuddho vadata.m varo; Two truths are told, said the excellent Sambuddha; Sammuti.m paramattha~nca, tatiya.m nuupalabbhati. the conventional and the absolute, no one gets a third. Sa"nketavacana.m sacca.m, lokasammutikaara.na.m; The word-smith truth, concerning worldly matters; Paramatthavacana.m sacca.m, dhammaana.m bhuutalakkha.nanti. the word-ultimate truth, on the actual nature of dhammas. S: And actually, Connie, what's wrong with 'actually' in dhammana.m bhuutalakkhana..... C: Actually, nothing; ditto, Karunadasa's: I was probably thinking about sammuti and pannatti. peace, connie #98915 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 5:29 pm Subject: Symbiotic Sympathy! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Maintain this Buddhist Wish of Noble Sympathy: May I be happy, may I maintain my happiness and live without any trace of enmity. May all beings be successful and happy: May they be of joyful mind, all beings that breathe & have life, whether they are weak or strong, tiny or huge, visible or invisible, near or far away, born or to be born, let all beings enjoy safety, content ease & bliss! Let no one deceive another, let no one be harsh in speech, let no one by anger or hatred wish bad for his neighbour. Even as a mother, at the risk of her life, guards and protects her only child, so with a boundless heart of compassion, I venerate all living beings by permeating this entire universe with sympathy, above, beneath & all around, without limit, immeasurable and endless! Thus I cultivate an infinite goodwill toward this whole world. Standing or walking, sitting or lying down, during all my waking hours I treasure always this thought, knowing that this very way of caring is the Noblest in the whole wide world! Thus shall I, by stilling pointless discussions and controversies, by acting blamelessly, be gifted with tranquillity & true insight. Thus shall I subdue the urge for sense-pleasure, and never again know rebirth. May this also inspire and thereby cause all other sentient beings to fulfil the conditions leading swiftly to NibbÄna. May all sentient beings be thus utterly liberated & completely released from suffering. May all sentient beings thus escape the dangers of ageing, disease, and death. Yeah! More on this blazing Friendliness (MettÄ ): ... Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Symbiotic Sympathy! #98916 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 9:02 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hello Nina, Sarah, Jon, Ken, Scott and all, > > > While it is true that mindfulness in initial stages can be developed in lay life, it can only go so far. > > "Ananda, a monk does not shine if he delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; if he delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group. <. . .> -------------- Hi Alex, Some suttas may seem easy to understand, but they are all equally difficult. Therefore, I won't comment on these you have quoted: I'll leave that for someone who has read the commentaries. :-) There is one thing I like to do, just as an exercise. And that is to read suttas in light of the Abhidhamma, which says that our world is just a few conditioned dhammas arising at one of six doorways. Can you read the suttas you have quoted in that light? Ken H #98917 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 2:34 am Subject: Yesterday's meeting jonoabb Hi Alberto It was great meeting you yesterday and spending time chatting about the Dhamma. I appreciate you making the (rather long) journey to Viareggio for the occasion (thank goodness the line was open all the way!). I find such get-togethers very helpful; always things to reflect on afterwards, and conducive to future communication on the list. I was struck by your confidence in the teachings and particularly in the importance of developing understanding at the present moment regardless of the circumstances. You also have an obvious aptitude in Pali which is a great asset (quite lacking in my own case!). Looking forward to talking to you more on the list in future. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alberto > > > See you and Sarah on Friday in Viareggio. > > Yes, very much looking forward to that ;-)) > > Jon > #98918 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 6:44 am Subject: Re: e-card from Italy 4 - our lovely day with Alberto sprlrt Hi Sarah and Jon, I enjoyed the day too, but sorry, can't remember all the details and didn't take any notes - can't do both that and gesticulating :-) Alberto > > As we have to get ready for tomorrow, I'll separately just list some of the topics of discussion (like I do in Bangkok sometimes) and ask Alberto to start filling in the details:). > #98919 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 3:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/4/2009 12:03:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Alex, Some suttas may seem easy to understand, but they are all equally difficult. Therefore, I won't comment on these you have quoted: I'll leave that for someone who has read the commentaries. :-) There is one thing I like to do, just as an exercise. And that is to read suttas in light of the Abhidhamma, which says that our world is just a few conditioned dhammas arising at one of six doorways. Can you read the suttas you have quoted in that light? ------------------------------------------------- My mind turns to the idea of a Christian asking a Jew to read the Torah, especially about the Prophet Elijah, in light of the Gospels! ;-) To me, this turns things upside-down. (I'm aware you don't see it that way. Different views, and neither likely to be altering any time soon! :-) ------------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98920 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 1:03 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hello Ken and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" > wrote: > > > > Hello Nina, Sarah, Jon, Ken, Scott and all, > > > > > > While it is true that mindfulness in initial stages can be developed > in lay life, it can only go so far. > > > > "Ananda, a monk does not shine if he delights in company, enjoys > company, is committed to delighting in company; if he delights in a > group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group. > > <. . .> > > -------------- > > Hi Alex, > > Some suttas may seem easy to understand, but they are all equally > difficult. Therefore, I won't comment on these you have quoted: I'll > leave that for someone who has read the commentaries. :-) > > There is one thing I like to do, just as an exercise. And that is to > read suttas in light of the Abhidhamma, which says that our world is > just a few conditioned dhammas arising at one of six doorways. > > Can you read the suttas you have quoted in that light? > > Ken H > Ken, I don't believe that there is some secret and magical key that is used to decipher the suttas called "The commentaries". It is slanderous to claim that Buddha couldn't teach well enough and that the commentaries can somehow surpass the Buddha's unique teaching ability. Even Ven. Sariputta as an Arahant, made mistakes! Nothing to say about people living centuries later. You are trying to deny what the suttas say by going on a tangent trying to read-in irrelevant micro-details and thus avoid seeing the big picture - like focusing on the dot and missing the paper. So what, if everything is made of dhammas? It doesn't deny that the was a physical Buddha, that there were physical monks, caves and so on. Sona: "it's not easy living at home to practice the celibate life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?" === I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time Ven. MahaKaccana was living among the people of Avanti on Pavatta Mountain near the Osprey Habitat. And at that time the lay follower Sona Kotikanna was Ven. MahaKaccana's supporter. Then as Sona Kotikanna was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose to his awareness: "According to the Dhamma Master MahaKaccana teaches, it's not easy living at home to practice the celibate life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?" So he went to Ven. MahaKaccana and on arrival, having bowed down to Ven. MahaKaccana, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. MahaKaccana, "Just now, venerable sir, as I was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose to my awareness: 'According to the Dhamma Master MahaKaccana teaches, it's not easy living at home to practice the celibate life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?' Give me the going-forth, Master MahaKaccana!" When this was said, Ven. MahaKaccana said to Sona Kotikanna, "It's hard, Sona, the life-long, one-meal-a-day, sleeping-alone celibate life. Please, right there as you are a householder, devote yourself to the message of the Awakened Ones and to the proper-time [i.e., uposatha day] one-meal-a-day, sleeping-alone celibate life." And so Sona Kotikanna's idea of going-forth subsided. Then a second time as Sona Kotikanna was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose to his awareness: "According to the Dhamma Master MahaKaccana teaches, it's not easy living at home to practice the celibate life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?" So he went to Ven. MahaKaccana and on arrival, having bowed down to Ven. MahaKaccana, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. MahaKaccana, "Just now, venerable sir, as I was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose to my awareness: 'According to the Dhamma Master MahaKaccana teaches, it's not easy living at home to practice the celibate life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?' Give me the going-forth, Master MahaKaccana!" When this was said, Ven. MahaKaccana said to Sona Kotikanna, "It's hard, Sona, the life-long, one-meal-a-day, sleeping-alone celibate life. Please, right there as you are a householder, devote yourself to the message of the Awakened Ones and to the proper-time [i.e., uposatha day] one-meal-a-day, sleeping-alone celibate life." And so Sona Kotikanna's idea of going-forth subsided a second time. Then a third time as Sona Kotikanna was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose to his awareness: "According to the Dhamma Master MahaKaccana teaches, it's not easy living at home to practice the celibate life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?" So he went to Ven. MahaKaccana and on arrival, having bowed down to Ven. MahaKaccana, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. MahaKaccana, "Just now, venerable sir, as I was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose to my awareness: 'According to the Dhamma Master MahaKaccana teaches, it's not easy living at home to practice the celibate life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?' Give me the going-forth, Master MahaKaccana!" So Ven. MahaKaccana gave Sona Kotikanna the going-forth. Now at that time the southern country of Avanti was short of monks. So only after three years — having gathered from here & there with hardship & difficulty a quorum-of-ten community of monks 1 — did Ven. MahaKaccana give full admission to Ven. Sona. Then, after having completed the Rains retreat, as he was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose to Ven. Sona's awareness: "I haven't seen the Blessed One face-to-face. I have simply heard that he is like this and like that. If my preceptor would give me permission, I would go to see the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One." So, leaving seclusion in the late afternoon, he went to Ven. MahaKaccana and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. MahaKaccana, "Just now, venerable sir, as I was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose to my awareness: 'I haven't seen the Blessed One face-to-face. I have simply heard that he is like this and like that. If my preceptor would give me permission, I would go to see the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One.'" "Good, good, Sona. Go, Sona, to see the Blessed One the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One. You will see the Blessed One who is serene & inspires serene confidence, whose senses are calmed, who has attained the utmost tranquillity & poise, a Great One (naga) who is controlled, tamed, restrained in his senses. On seeing him, showing reverence with your head to his feet in my name, ask whether he is free from illness & affliction, is carefree, strong, & living in comfort, [saying: 'My preceptor, lord, shows reverence with his head to your feet and asks whether you are free from illness & affliction, are carefree, strong, & living in comfort.'"] 2 "As you say, venerable sir," replied Ven. Sona. Delighting in and approving of Ven. MahaKaccana's words, he got up from his seat, bowed down to Ven. MahaKaccana, circumambulated him, set his lodging in order, and taking his bowl & robes set off wandering toward Savatthi. Wandering by stages, he arrived at Savatthi, Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. He went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, my preceptor, Ven. MahaKaccana, shows reverence with his head to the Blessed One's feet and asks whether the Blessed One is free from illness & affliction, is carefree, strong, & living in comfort." "Are you well, monk? Are you in good health? Have you come along the road with only a little fatigue? And are you not tired of alms-food?" "I am well, Blessed One. I am in good health, Blessed One. I have come along the road, lord, with only a little fatigue and I am not tired of alms-food." Then the Blessed One addressed Ven. Ananda, [saying,] "Ananda, prepare bedding for this visiting monk." Then the thought occurred to Ven. Ananda, "When the Blessed One orders me, 'Ananda, prepare bedding for this visiting monk,' he wants to stay in the same dwelling with that monk. The Blessed One wants to stay in the same dwelling with Ven. Sona." So he prepared bedding for Ven. Sona in the dwelling in which the Blessed One was staying. Then the Blessed One, having spent much of the night sitting in the open air, washed his feet and entered the dwelling. Likewise, Ven. Sona, having spent much of the night sitting in the open air, washed his feet and entered the dwelling. Then, getting up toward the end of the night, the Blessed One invited Ven. MahaSona, 3 [saying,] "Monk, I would like you to recite the Dhamma." Responding, "As you say, lord," Ven. Sona chanted all sixteen parts of the Atthakavagga. The Blessed One, at the conclusion of Ven. Sona's chanting, was highly pleased [and said], "Good, good, monk. You have learned the Atthakavagga [verses] well, have considered them well, have borne them well in mind. You have a fine delivery, clear & faultless, that makes the meaning intelligible. How many Rains [in the monkhood] do you have?" "I have one Rains, lord." "But why did you take so long [to ordain]?" "For a long time, lord, I have seen the drawbacks in sensual passions, but the household life is crowded with many duties, many things to be done." Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: "Seeing the drawbacks of the world, knowing the state without acquisitions, a noble one doesn't delight in evil, in evil a pure one doesn't delight. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.06.than.html With metta, Alex #98921 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 3:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation kenhowardau Hi Howard, -------- > My mind turns to the idea of a Christian asking a Jew to read the > Torah, especially about the Prophet Elijah, in light of the Gospels! ;-) > To me, this turns things upside-down. (I'm aware you don't see it that > way. Different views, and neither likely to be altering any time soon! :-) -------- I think you are right about neither altering any time soon. Even so, we are talking about concepts, and there is no certainty about these things. Beneath the concepts, realities are arising and falling. And I think pretty much the same realities are likely to be arising and falling no matter what the concepts. Ken H #98922 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 11:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/4/2009 6:09:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Beneath the concepts, realities are arising and falling. And I think pretty much the same realities are likely to be arising and falling no matter what the concepts. =========================== I agree with that, though I'd sooner say "reality" than "realities." :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98923 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 4:03 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation kenhowardau Hi Alex, -------------- A: > Ken, I don't believe that there is some secret and magical key that is used to decipher the suttas called "The commentaries". --------------- The fact remains that everyone who reads a sutta unassisted will understand it in his own unique way. If that way is consistent with the Dhamma as a whole then I suppose no great harm is done. The reader might not get the precise message the sutta was meant to convey, but at least he will be considering it wisely. That's why (when I haven't got the commentaries) I like to read suttas in the light of the Abhidhamma - just as and exercise. And I was wondering if you were capable of doing the same. I wasn't asking you to believe in the Abhidhamma, just to consider how the suttas might be interpreted in terms of presently arisen namas and rupas. ---------------------------- A: > It is slanderous to claim that Buddha couldn't teach well enough and that the commentaries can somehow surpass the Buddha's unique teaching ability. Even Ven. Sariputta as an Arahant, made mistakes! Nothing to say about people living centuries later. You are trying to deny what the suttas say by going on a tangent trying to read-in irrelevant micro-details and thus avoid seeing the big picture - like focusing on the dot and missing the paper. ------------------------------ To tell the truth, I don't think there is a big picture without the Abhidhamma. When I read suttas in the light of conventional reality I find them quite unimpressive. ---------------------------------------- A: > So what, if everything is made of dhammas? It doesn't deny that the was a physical Buddha, that there were physical monks, caves and so on. Sona: "it's not easy living at home to practice the celibate life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?" ----------------------------------------- Actually, it does deny that there was a physical Buddha. But that denial only makes sense in the light of the Abhidhamma. Without it, I would agree entirely with your point of view: namely, that it was silly to say there was no Buddha, or to drive cars into trees. :-) Ken H #98924 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 4:44 pm Subject: Intention Creates Future! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Any Intention is creating moments of Future! Any moment of intentional mental activity creates and conditions the future! Any moment of intentional verbal activity creates and conditions the future! Any moment of intentional bodily activity creates and conditions the future! If the intention behind this thinking, speaking or doing is mixed with either greed, hate, or ignorance or diluted derivatives thereof, this future will inevitably be mixed with resultant states of mental and physical pain… If the intention behind this thinking, speaking & doing is mixed with either non-greed, non-hate, or non-ignorance or dilutions thereof, this future will inevitably be mixed with resultant states of mental and physical pleasure… If the intention behind this thinking, speaking & doing is mixed neither with greed nor with non-greed, neither with hate nor with non-hate,& neither with ignorance nor with non-ignorance, this future will inevitably be mixed with resultant states of neither pain nor pleasure = neutral indifference… Not intending any stills formation of becoming and is not creating any future! Therefore: Be Aware! Watch the intention! Is it mixed with exactly what? Intention is literally seeding and producing moments of your future! No other Creator is found! Silencing intention creates Peace! Becomes About the cause and effect of intentional states: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_is_intention.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/What_is_Neutral.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Resultants.htm Have a nice noting colour of the intention day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Intention Creates Future! #98925 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 6:28 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi Ken and all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > -------------- > A: > Ken, I don't believe that there is some secret and magical key that > is used to decipher the suttas called "The commentaries". > --------------- > > The fact remains that everyone who reads a sutta unassisted will > understand it in his own unique way. Even the commentators? Here is an interesting thing. Name me one commentator of old who rejected formal practice? You ain't gonna find it. Unfortunately there is no shortcut to Nibbana. >If that way is consistent with the >Dhamma as a whole then I suppose no great harm is done. The reader >might > not get the precise message the sutta was meant to convey, but at least > he will be considering it wisely. > > That's why (when I haven't got the commentaries) I like to read suttas > in the light of the Abhidhamma - just as and exercise. And I was > wondering if you were capable of doing the same. I wasn't asking you to > believe in the Abhidhamma, just to consider how the suttas might be > interpreted in terms of presently arisen namas and rupas. It doesn't change the message of the suttas. If you examine them in such a light as to deny what they say, then your interpretation is to blame. > ---------------------------- > A: > It is slanderous to claim that Buddha couldn't teach well enough > and that the commentaries can somehow surpass the Buddha's unique > teaching ability. Even Ven. Sariputta as an Arahant, made mistakes! > Nothing to say about people living centuries later. You are trying to > deny what the suttas say by going on a tangent trying to read-in > irrelevant micro-details and thus avoid seeing the big picture - like > focusing on the dot and missing the paper. > ------------------------------ > > To tell the truth, I don't think there is a big picture without the > Abhidhamma. Which sutta said that Abhidhamma is required to understand the suttas? Why wasn't it stated as one of 4 criteria? > When I read suttas in the light of conventional reality I > find them quite unimpressive. Yes, the hindrances work hard (and create many excuses) at making a person stay away from Dhamma. This applies to all of us. > ---------------------------------------- > A: > So what, if everything is made of dhammas? It doesn't deny that the > was a physical Buddha, that there were physical monks, caves and so on. > Sona: "it's not easy living at home to practice the celibate life > totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to > shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the > household life into homelessness?" > ----------------------------------------- > > Actually, it does deny that there was a physical Buddha. So, how could the teachings have happened? Whose teachings are you following? The arising of causes & conditions is Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha. But the fact that all these are conditioned it doesn't mean that they don't exist! Please don't fall into this sophist fallacy of (the whole is made of parts, therefore the whole doesn't exist). I know that it is tempting to reject any need for effort, so convenient! It is also so tempting to focus on citta-viveka (seclusion of mind) and forget all about kaya-viveka bodily seclusion. It is convenient to explain the Dhamma in such a way that one doesn't need to do any effort, or even to do anything... It is convenient to explain away all the passages to "...go to secluded place, caves, roots of the trees, etc" "Indeed, Ananda, it is impossible that a monk who delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; who delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group, will obtain at will — without difficulty, without trouble — the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening. But it is possible that a monk who lives alone, withdrawn from the group, can expect to obtain at will — without difficulty, without trouble — the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.122.than.html I understand, and wish it was the case, that the above passages could be explained away as to not follow those instructions that ARE hard, tough and inconvenient. With metta, Alex #98926 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 6:37 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator >--- "kenhowardau" wrote: >Beneath the concepts, realities are arising and falling. And I think >pretty much the same realities are likely to be arising and falling >no matter what the concepts. > > Ken H Hi Ken, Sarah, Nina and all, How does one actually SEES those things? The "The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness." - SN22.5 Samadhi is proximate condition to "knowledge and vision of things as they really are" - SN12.23 Jhana Is Right Concentration - SN 45.8 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.005.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html With metta, Alex #98927 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 8:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation kenhowardau Hi Howard, We have at least reached the stage where we know there is *a difference* between concepts and realities. Not everyone can say that. ----------- H: > I agree with that, though I'd sooner say "reality" than "realities." > :-) ----------- It would be nice to know which it is. They can't both be right. The Pali texts certainly say "realities." And if the first stage of insight knowledge is to know "nama as nama and rupa as rupa" then there must be at least two. :-) Ken H #98928 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 11:10 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation kenhowardau Hi Alex, ------------- KH: > > The fact remains that everyone who reads a sutta unassisted will understand it in his own unique way. >> A: > Even the commentators? ------------- No, the commentators who lived in the Buddha's day were commended by him for explaining things in exactly the way he would have explained them. Later commentaries might not have been heard and approved by the Buddha, but they were nevertheless the work of arahants, and they were closely scrutinised by the sangha before being preserved for generations by reciting monks. ------------------- A: >Here is an interesting thing. Name me one commentator of old who rejected formal practice? You ain't gonna find it. Unfortunately there is no shortcut to Nibbana. -------------- The formal practices that modern-day Buddhists engage in are modern-day inventions. As far as I know, they are not even mentioned in the ancient texts. One possible exception is in the commentary to the Satipatthana (or Maha-satipatthana?) Sutta. There, it is pointed out that "going" (as in walking etc) is known differently in satipatthana than it is known ordinarily. They point out that even dogs and jackals can know "going" in the ordinary sense. And aren't all formal satipatthana practices just ordinary ways of knowing? Doesn't the modern-day meditator concentrate on going back and forth, one foot after the other, and that sort of thing? ------------- KH : > > To tell the truth, I don't think there is a big picture without the Abhidhamma. > > A: > Which sutta said that Abhidhamma is required to understand the suttas? Why wasn't it stated as one of 4 criteria? ------------- The way I see it, the Abhidhamma is the *actual content* of the Buddha's teaching. Conventionally worded suttas are just ways of clarifying that content. If you know the Abhidhamma first you will see that the suttas are always talking about conditioned dhammas, because conditioned dhammas are the ONLY things that really exist. If you don't know the Abhidhamma first then some suttas are going to be very misleading. They will give the impression that the Buddha saw people (and walking and other concepts) as really existing. You will get the impression that you are supposed to closely observe those concepts and see them as annicca, dukkha and anatta. (!) (The fleeting tortoise! The unsatisfactory 100% exam result! The man who never was! . . .) -------------- KH: > > When I read suttas in the light of conventional reality I > find them quite unimpressive. A: > Yes, the hindrances work hard (and create many excuses) at making a person stay away from Dhamma. This applies to all of us. -------------- No, I mean that stories about religious people' living in accordance with the Law and receiving their rewards etc' are not the sort of thing that interests me . Ken H #98929 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 8:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/4/2009 11:39:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, We have at least reached the stage where we know there is *a difference* between concepts and realities. Not everyone can say that. ----------- H: > I agree with that, though I'd sooner say "reality" than "realities." > :-) ----------- It would be nice to know which it is. They can't both be right. The Pali texts certainly say "realities." -------------------------------------------------- I didn't make my point clear, for which I apologize. I don't know about Pali singular & plural, but if the Pali word you are speaking of is 'dhamma', the meaning is simply the neutral "thing" (or "things") or "phenomenon" (or "phenomena"). Using 'a reality' (or 'realities') as the regular translation for the Pali word is adding additional point-of-view during the translation process. --------------------------------------------------- And if the first stage of insight knowledge is to know "nama as nama and rupa as rupa" then there must be at least two. :-) ------------------------------------------------------ It isn't distinguishing of phenomena that concerns me, but honoring them by doing more than calling them "phenomena" is what concerns me. Calling sights, sounds, tastes, hearing, and fearing "phenomena" or "things" is neutral translation of 'dhamma'. Saying that they are "real" in the sense of being unimagined and actually observed as opposed to being merely thought of is also not problematical to me. But regularly referring to them in all contexts as "realities" is something I do find problematical. Here's the thing: It is not uncommon to speak of phenomena that actually occur and are unimagined as "realities" when THEIR BEING UNIMAGINED is the point that is being made, and that is fine. But to always call them "realities" rather than just "things" or "phenomena" is to afford TOO MUCH status to them. The Pali 'dhamma' doesn't go that far. There is more I could say about this involving what I view as conventional aspects of even paramattha dhammas, but if I do, it will only lead us into pointless and already well trod dispute. So, I'll leave the matter now. Such fine hairsplitting and theoretical disputation won't lead to useful discussion as regards relinquishment and the ending of dukkha. ------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H ================================ With metta, Howard Emptiness /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #98930 From: "Dr. Han Tun" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 4:58 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (30) hantun1 Physical Phenomena (30) Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas): continuation. Questions and comments are welcome. -------------------- As to the "sentient eye" or eyesense, this is to be found, according to the "Atthasåliní", in the middle of the black circle, surrounded by white circles, and it permeates the ocular membranes "as sprinkled oil permeates seven cotton wicks." We read: "And it is served by the four elements doing the functions of sustaining, binding, maturing and vibrating [Note 3], just as a princely boy is tended by four nurses doing the functions of holding, bathing, dressing and fanning him. And being upheld by the caloric order, by thought (citta) and nutriment, and guarded by life and attended by colour, odour, taste, etc., the organ, no bigger in size than the head of a louse, stands duly fulfilling the nature of the basis and the door of visual cognition, etc. ...." The "Visuddhimagga" (XIV, 37) gives the following definition of eye-sense [Note 4]: "Herein, the eye's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of visible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see. Its function is to pick up (an object) among visible data. It is manifested as the footing of eye-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements (the four Great Elements) born of kamma sourcing from desire to see." We have desire to see, we are attached to all sense-impressions and, thus, there are still conditions for kamma to produce rebirth, to produce seeing, hearing and the other sense-impressions, and also to produce the sense-organs which are the conditions for the experience of sense objects. Also in future lives there are bound to be sense-impressions. [Note 3] The earth element performs its function of sustaining, the water element of holding together, the fire element of maintaining or maturing, and the wind element of oscillation.] [Note 4] See also Dhammasanga.nii § 597 and Atthasaalinii II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 312 --------------------- Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas) to be continued. with metta, Han #98931 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 5:16 am Subject: Re: Yesterday's meeting jonoabb Hi All I've just uploaded 3 pics from the meeting with Alberto. One is in the "Members" album and 2 in the "Meetings" album. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alberto > > It was great meeting you yesterday and spending time chatting about the Dhamma. #98932 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 6:02 am Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) jonoabb Hi Mike (98851) > > Yes, a monk's life is a different lifestyle to that of a lay-person. And > > within the monk's life, there are again different lifestyles that could > > be followed (as in lay life). > > This reminded me of a favorite passage from the Vinaya texts: > > Then the venerable Dabba, the Mallian, being so > chosen, assigned one lodging in the same place for those > monks who belonged to the same company. For those > monks who knew the Suttantas he assigned a lodging in > the same place, saying: 'These will be able to chant > over the Suttantas to one another." For those monks > versed in the Vinaya rules, he assigned a lodging in > the same place, saying: "They will decide upon the > Vinaya with one another." For those monks teaching > dhamma he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: > "They will discuss dhamma with one another." For > those monks who were musers he assigned a lodging > in the same place, saying: "They will not disturb > one another." For those monks who lived indulging > in low talk and who were athletic he assigned a > lodging in the same place, saying: "These reverend > ones will live according to their pleasure." > > [Sanghadisesa] VIII. 1, 3-4] FORMAL MEETING 273 I like "athletic and indulging in low talk" as a description of what the monk's life is *not* about. Sounds a lot like lay life ;-)). More to the point thought, the passage does highlight the different (conflicting, even) lifestyles that could properly be led by monks. Jon #98933 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 6:06 am Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Alex (98912) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hello Nina, Sarah, Jon, Ken, Scott and all, > > > While it is true that mindfulness in initial stages can be developed in lay life, it can only go so far. > > "Ananda, a monk does not shine if he delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; if he delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group. Indeed, Ananda, it is impossible that a monk who delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; who delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group, will obtain at will — without difficulty, without trouble — the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening. But it is possible that a monk who lives alone, withdrawn from the group, can expect to obtain at will — without difficulty, without trouble — the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening. > > "Indeed, Ananda, it is impossible that a monk who delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; who delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group, will enter & remain in the awareness-release that is temporary and pleasing, or in the awareness-release that is not-temporary and beyond provocation. But it is possible that a monk who lives alone, withdrawn from the group, can expect to enter & remain in the awareness-release that is temporary and pleasing, or in the awareness-release that is not-temporary and beyond provocation. > > While he is living thus secluded, brahmans & householders from town & countryside visit him. When they visit him, he gets smitten with things that infatuate, falls into greed, and reverts to luxury. This is called one following the holy life who is undone with the undoing of one who leads the holy life. He has been struck down by evil, unskillful qualities that defile, that lead to further becoming, are troublesome, ripen in pain, and lead to future birth, aging, & death. Such is the undoing of one who leads the holy life. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.122.than.html I don't think the passage supports the proposition that you assert at the beginning, of your message ("While it is true that mindfulness in initial stages can be developed in lay life, it can only go so far"). The passage is concerned with factors that may prevent a monk from attaining mastery of eh jhanas (first and second paragraphs), or may cause him to give up the monk's life (third paragraph). The passage does not say that lay-followers are incapable of attaining enlightenment. It is of course well established that they can. Jon #98934 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 6:23 am Subject: Re: Immediate rebirth jonoabb Hi Chris (98796) > Without wanting to be difficult, it seems that my first post was a little unclear. > > This is the bit I would be interested in receiving answers to: > ===== > ~~Is immediate rebirth mentioned anywhere in the Sutta Pitaka?~~ > ===== > I place a lot more importance on the Buddhavacana in the Suttas above the additions of the later commentarial teachings. > > And such an important point as "immediate rebirth" would surely be mentioned many times in the 45 year teaching career of the Blessed One. This kind of reasoning can be useful but should not be relied upon too much in coming to a conclusion. One could equally argue that such an important point as *intermediate rebirth* would surely be mentioned many times ... If we are sticking to the Buddhavacana and ignoring later commentators (including modern-day commentators), I think what it comes down to is the sutta references to "beings seeking rebirth". The question is then whether these references are unequivocal in their terms, given the context in which they appear. Jon #98935 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" jonoabb Hi Alex (98836) > > That would turn the whole Dhamma on its head! > > No because the Gandhabba is made of khandas like everyone else. > > Can someone explain to me, why would intermidiate existence refute > anicca, dukkha, anatta? Why can't there be momentary cittas (cuti citta, patisandhi & so on) in Gandhabba as well? > > It doesn't seem to me! Would you mind explaining what distinguishes an "intermediate existence" from the other (non-intermediate) kind, apart from being a state that is not among the list of known states? If there are the 5 khandhas as usual, including seeing and visible object, and a beginning and end (birth and death), then what's the difference? Jon #98936 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 6:41 am Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path jonoabb Hi Alex (98859) > The points I have raised were (to name a few) > > -That certain activities ARE done. > -That Jhanas *can* and *are* used for full awakening. > =============== How does the passage below demonstrate or support either of these 2 points? > =============== > The Buddha awoken (some translate 'discovered') to Jhana. > =============== To my recollection, this is a point you've not mentioned so far in our exchanges. What is the textual basis for it? > =============== > > Perhaps you could start the ball rolling by giving your take on the following part of the passage: > > > > "And what more is to be done? We will be possessed of mindfulness & alertness. > > When going forward and returning, we will act with alertness. When looking > > toward and looking away... when bending and extending our limbs... when carrying > > our outer cloak, upper robe, & bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & > > tasting... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, > > falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, we will act with > > alertness': That's how you should train yourselves. > > > > Jon > > Developing mindfulness is important and it helps the sitting meditation later on. It *is* one of the important supporting conditions for successful meditation later on. If you are unmindful in daily life evil & unwholesome mental states can enter and remain - this feeds the hindrances that obstruct Jhana & Wisdom. > =============== But it is clear from the Satipatthana Sutta that the development of mindfulness accompanied by wisdom (sati-sampajjanna) as set out in that sutta itself leads to enlightenment. > =============== > Furthermore, monks have to be especially careful not to accidental brake Vinaya rules or see things that may cause them to disrobe. > =============== You are perhaps thinking of the conventional meaning of mindfuless -- of being careful about one's actions, not being distracted -- rather than the Pali term "sati sampajjanna" as used in the texts. Jon #98937 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 6:48 am Subject: Re: On understanding jonoabb Hi Alex (98863) > Personally I believe that understanding is more than just being able to recite some doctrine while showing one's prolix knowledge of the vocabulary and obfuscation of simple teachings. > =============== No disagreement from me on this ;-)) > =============== > Many Arahants of old did not know that much theory. For example the Arahant Assaji couldn't say much to wanderer Sariputta to whom Sariputta has wisely said: > > Assaji: > "I am new, my friend, not long gone forth, only recently come to this doctrine and discipline. I cannot explain the doctrine in detail, but I can give you the gist in brief." > > Then Sariputta the wanderer spoke thus to the Ven. Assaji: > Speak a little or a lot, but tell me just the gist. The gist is what I want. What use is a lot of rhetoric? > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/vin/mv/mv.01.23.01-10.than.html > =============== To my understanding, this is not a case of Ven Assaji not knowning the theory of the teachings, but of not being skilled in reading another's predispositions for receiving the teachings. Jon #98938 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 6:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Howard (and KenH) (98929) > Hi Howard, > > We have at least reached the stage where we know there is *a > difference* between concepts and realities. Not everyone can say that. > > ----------- > H: > I agree with that, though I'd sooner say "reality" than > "realities." > > :-) > ----------- Perhaps Ken's proposition could be restated thus: "We have at least reached the stage where we know there is *a difference* between concepts and dhammas. Not everyone can say that." In numerous suttas the Buddha speaks of dhammas and the importance of dhammas being known as seen as they truly are: anicca, dukkha and anatta. Jon #98939 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 7:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from Italy 5a - discussion topics with Alberto sarahprocter... Dear Mike (& Alberto), I apologise if any of my cryptic notes caused any offence. I'd like to stress that the discussion was about the Dhamma, not about you. I raised your summary because Alberto hadn't responded to it and I thought it was quite a good one and there were interesting points to consider. Alberto elaborated on his idea of sammutti sacca as referring to rules, to do's and don't's. I didn't (and don't) agree with him (hence the ???) and we all laughed. We can't agree all the time and it helps when we don't take it too seriously:). I hoped I might encourage you and Alberto to continue your excellent discussion on this point. Metta, Sarah --- On Sat, 4/7/09, m. nease wrote: sarah abbott wrote: >> 5. Mike's summary of A's interesting comments: > hearing + concept + wise consideration + accumulated panna (via > pariyatti) = patipatti aka satipatthana. "NO!" For A., too much like > algebra, sammuti sacca - do's and don't's ??? Lots of gesticulating and > laughter at this point! >Jolly good! Ha ha and ta ta, then. #98940 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 5:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/5/2009 10:00:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (and KenH) (98929) > Hi Howard, > > We have at least reached the stage where we know there is *a > difference* between concepts and realities. Not everyone can say that. > > ----------- > H: > I agree with that, though I'd sooner say "reality" than > "realities." > > :-) > ----------- Perhaps Ken's proposition could be restated thus: "We have at least reached the stage where we know there is *a difference* between concepts and dhammas. Not everyone can say that." In numerous suttas the Buddha speaks of dhammas and the importance of dhammas being known as seen as they truly are: anicca, dukkha and anatta. Jon ============================= While I don't draw quite as solid a line between concepts and paramattha dhammas as you folks, consider there to be a conventional aspect to the paramattha dhammas as discussed by many here, I do, indeed, find this FAR more palatable, and I would not take strong exception to it at all. Concepts are merely thought of, whereas namas and rupas, as they are and not as thought about, are actual elements of experience. With metta, Howard Emptiness /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #98941 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 12:41 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi Ken, Sarah, Jon, Nina and all, > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > ------------- > KH: > > The fact remains that everyone who reads a sutta unassisted will > understand it in his own unique way. >> > > A: > Even the commentators? > ------------- > > No, the commentators who lived in the Buddha's day were commended >by him for explaining things in exactly the way he would have >explained them. All of them? Even Sati, Arittha, Devadatta (who at some point WAS praised) and others? > Later commentaries might not have been heard and approved by the >Buddha, but they were nevertheless the work of arahants, Was Ven. Buddhaghosa an Arahant? Sati, Arittha, Devadatta? Were they Arahants? g monks. > > ------------------- > A: >Here is an interesting thing. Name me one commentator of old who > rejected formal practice? You ain't gonna find it. Unfortunately there > is no shortcut to Nibbana. > -------------- > > The formal practices that modern-day Buddhists engage in are >modern-day > inventions. As far as I know, they are not even mentioned in the ancient > texts. > Even those taken from Visuddhimagga & The suttas. Lets talk about MN118 for example. Please explain to me the true way of practicing "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit? "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.1 Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'2 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'3 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' "[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'4 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.' "[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.' [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'5 "[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.' "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html Patisambhidamagga: "A bhikkhu": a noble commoner, or a trainer, or an unshakable arahat.[55] "Forest": having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest. "Root of a tree": where the bhikkhu's seat, or stool, or cushion, or mat, or piece of hide, or spread of grass, or leaves, or pile of straw, is prepared—there he walks, stands, sits, or lies down. "Empty": unfrequented by laymen or by those gone forth. "Place": dwelling, half-gabled building, palace, mansion, cave.[56] "Sits down; having folded his legs crosswise": is seated, having folded his legs crosswise. "Set his body erect": the body is placed well set, erect. "Established mindfulness in front of him": [lit.: "having established (upa.t.thapetvaa) mindfulness (sati) around (pari) the face (mukha.m)"] "in (pari)" in the sense of laying hold (pariggaha); "front (mukha.m)" in the sense of outlet (or leading forth, niyyaana); "mindfulness (sati)" in the sense of establishing (foundation, upa.t.thaana).[57] (.m34). "Ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out": he is one who practises mindfulness in the thirty-two ways stated above (i.e. the four tetrads, times the two breaths in each case.) For one who knows one-pointedness and non-distraction of mind by means of each of these thirty-two ways, mindfulness is established (founded); by means of that mindfulness and that knowledge, he is one who practises mindfulness. http://bps.lk/bp_library/bp502s/bp502_part3.html#_ednref55 Vism III, 29 "Firstly it was said above, he should sever any of the ten impediments that he may have. [90] Now the 'ten impediments' are: A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." Again, they support the notion of physical and mental seclusion AND practice to be done! Visuddhimagga: VIII, 157 Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing So the Blessed One said 'gone to the forest', etc., to point out a forest abode as a place likely to hasten his advancement. 158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176;Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, secluded space. AAnd here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting place).42 [271] 159. Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three seasons, suitable to humour and temperament,43 and favourable to the development of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation. Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. 160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. Vimuttimagga: "What is the procedure?": The new yogin having gone to a forest, to the foot of a tree or to a wide open space, sits down, with legs crossed under him, with the body held erect, with mindfulness established in front. He is mindful in respiration. ...Here, he trains himself in "breathing in" means: "mindfulness is fixed at the nose-tip or on the lip".3 These are the places connected with breathing in and breathing out. That yogin attends to the incoming breath here. He considers the contact of the incoming and the outgoing breath, through mindfulness that is fixed at the nose-tip or on the lip. Mindfully, he breathes in; mindfully, he breathes out." Here I have provided Sutta, Patis, Vsm and Vim excerp on Anapanasati. As you see they ALL viewed it as a practice that is done. With metta, Alex #98943 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 1:56 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi Jon and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (98912) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > Hello Nina, Sarah, Jon, Ken, Scott and all, > > > > > > While it is true that mindfulness in initial stages can be developed in lay life, it can only go so far. > > > > "Ananda, a monk does not shine if he delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; if he delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group. Indeed, Ananda, it is impossible that a monk who delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; who delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group, will obtain at will — without difficulty, without trouble — the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening. But it is possible that a monk who lives alone, withdrawn from the group, can expect to obtain at will — without difficulty, without trouble — the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening. > > > > "Indeed, Ananda, it is impossible that a monk who delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; who delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group, will enter & remain in the awareness-release that is temporary and pleasing, or in the awareness-release that is not-temporary and beyond provocation. But it is possible that a monk who lives alone, withdrawn from the group, can expect to enter & remain in the awareness-release that is temporary and pleasing, or in the awareness-release that is not-temporary and beyond provocation. > > > > While he is living thus secluded, brahmans & householders from town & countryside visit him. When they visit him, he gets smitten with things that infatuate, falls into greed, and reverts to luxury. This is called one following the holy life who is undone with the undoing of one who leads the holy life. He has been struck down by evil, unskillful qualities that defile, that lead to further becoming, are troublesome, ripen in pain, and lead to future birth, aging, & death. Such is the undoing of one who leads the holy life. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.122.than.html > > I don't think the passage supports the proposition that you assert at the beginning, of your message ("While it is true that mindfulness in initial stages can be developed in lay life, it can only go so far"). > > The passage is concerned with factors that may prevent a monk from attaining mastery of eh jhanas (first and second paragraphs), or may cause him to give up the monk's life (third paragraph). > > The passage does not say that lay-followers are incapable of >attaining enlightenment. It is of course well established that they >can. > > Jon But Jon, the point is that seclusion, at least temporary, is required. Look also at MN36 ""So it is with any priest or contemplative who lives withdrawn from sensuality in body & mind, and whose desire, infatuation, urge, thirst, & fever for sensuality is relinquished & stilled within him: Whether or not he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings due to his striving, he is capable of knowledge, vision, & unexcelled self-awakening." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html Lay people CAN attain stages of awakening, especially if they go on meditation retreats which are very helpful. But few points to consider: 1) The strength of faculties and lack of many hindrances. The better your indriyas and lesser the hindrances = the easier and quicker progress. 2) Those people may have met the Buddha. We don't have such an opportunity today. 3) Modern life has far more distractions than the 5th Century India. They didn't have Radio or TV. The life was not as high paced and they certainly didn't have information overload. Some monks today live in a more distracted way than some lay people of the past. I do hope that it is possible for lay people to reach Anagami & higher stages like in the Suttas, and there was at least one lay person who became an Arhant at the moment of death. With metta, Alex #98944 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 2:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (98836) > > > That would turn the whole Dhamma on its head! > > > > No because the Gandhabba is made of khandas like everyone else. > > > > Can someone explain to me, why would intermidiate existence refute > > anicca, dukkha, anatta? Why can't there be momentary cittas (cuti citta, patisandhi & so on) in Gandhabba as well? > > > > It doesn't seem to me! > > Would you mind explaining what distinguishes an "intermediate existence" from the other (non-intermediate) kind, apart from being a state that is not among the list of known states? If there are the 5 khandhas as usual, including seeing and visible object, and a beginning and end (birth and death), then what's the difference? > > Jon > I don't know much about this and the suttas do not talk in detail about Gandhabba. It is possible that intermediate being is made of manokaya or maybe it is a certain rebirth in kamaloka (Gandhabba of 4 the world of great kings - one plane above human). Maybe there isn't much difference between "intermediate" & full rebirth. With metta, Alex #98945 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 2:22 pm Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path truth_aerator Hi Jon, and all, >, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (98859) > > The points I have raised were (to name a few) > > > > -That certain activities ARE done. > > -That Jhanas *can* and *are* used for full awakening. > > =============== > > How does the passage below demonstrate or support either of these 2 points? First of all the sutta frequently talk about things to be done, and this IMHO is more important as mere description of what is. To a starving person the the desert speculating on water doesn't quench the thirst, but the direction to the nearest oasis AND walking/crawling there will eventually lead to quenching the thirst. == Patisambhidamagga: "A bhikkhu": a noble commoner, or a trainer, or an unshakable arahat.[55] "Forest": having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest. "Root of a tree": where the bhikkhu's seat, or stool, or cushion, or mat, or piece of hide, or spread of grass, or leaves, or pile of straw, is prepared—there he walks, stands, sits, or lies down. "Empty": unfrequented by laymen or by those gone forth. "Place": dwelling, half-gabled building, palace, mansion, cave.[56] "Sits down; having folded his legs crosswise": is seated, having folded his legs crosswise. "Set his body erect": the body is placed well set, erect. http://bps.lk/bp_library/bp502s/bp502_part3.html#_ednref55 Visuddhimagga: VIII, 157 So the Blessed One said 'gone to the forest', etc., to point out a forest abode as a place likely to hasten his advancement. 158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176;Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, secluded space. AAnd here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting place).42 [271] 159. Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three seasons, suitable to humour and temperament,43 and favourable to the development of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation. Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. 160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. Visuddhimagga: VIII, 157 ===== Please comment. > > > =============== > > The Buddha awoken (some translate 'discovered') to Jhana. > > =============== > >To my recollection, this is a point you've not mentioned so far in >our exchanges. What is the textual basis for it? > SN 2.7 Truly in a confining place, he found an opening — the one of extensive wisdom, the awakened one who awakened to jhana,1 the chief bull, withdrawn, the sage. === In The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (CDB), this phrase is translated as "who discovered jhana," but the verb is abuddhi: "awakened to." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn02/sn02.007.than.html I don't want to comment whose pali translation is better, BB's & Ajahn Brahm's or TB's. It is certainly the fact that Jhana as part of Samma-Samadhi (and other factors) WAS DISCOVERED BY THE BUDDHA and was NOT practiced outside of Buddha Sasana. It is ONLY Buddha's discovery, not a practice practiced by other people. Reflection on mind & body was done by many non-Buddhists. But the Buddha did discover the right Meditation. > > =============== > > > Perhaps you could start the ball rolling by giving your take on the following part of the passage: > > > > > > "And what more is to be done? We will be possessed of mindfulness & alertness. > > > When going forward and returning, we will act with alertness. When looking > > > toward and looking away... when bending and extending our limbs... when carrying > > > our outer cloak, upper robe, & bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & > > > tasting... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, > > > falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, we will act with > > > alertness': That's how you should train yourselves. > > > > > > Jon > > > > Developing mindfulness is important and it helps the sitting meditation later on. It *is* one of the important supporting conditions for successful meditation later on. If you are unmindful in daily life evil & unwholesome mental states can enter and remain - this feeds the hindrances that obstruct Jhana & Wisdom. > > =============== > > But it is clear from the Satipatthana Sutta that the development of mindfulness accompanied by wisdom (sati-sampajjanna) as set out in that sutta itself leads to enlightenment. > NO, it is not stated that bare insight leads to Awakening. Insight + Jhana does. Jhanas are deep stages of mindfulness as well. > > =============== > > Furthermore, monks have to be especially careful not to accidental brake Vinaya rules or see things that may cause them to disrobe. > > =============== > > You are perhaps thinking of the conventional meaning With all due respect, Jon, it seems that you and other make too much distinction between "Conventional" & "Ultimate" . It seems to me that you read suttas which talk about things to be done in such a way as to DENY what the suttas say by refering to "ultimate realities" and avoiding the big picture. Sati can and in some suttas means memory. So Satipatthana could be a post Jhanic insight gained AFTER the Jhana using sati. With metta, Alex #98946 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 2:28 pm Subject: typo fix: "starving" should be replaced "thirsty" truth_aerator Hi All, > First of all the sutta frequently talk about things to be done, and this IMHO is more important as mere description of what is. To a starving person the the desert speculating on water doesn't quench the thirst, but the direction to the nearest oasis AND walking/crawling there will eventually lead to quenching of the thirst. > starving should be replaced with thirsty Alex #98947 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 3:40 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > >--- "kenhowardau" kenhowardau@ wrote: > >Beneath the concepts, realities are arising and falling. And I think > >pretty much the same realities are likely to be arising and falling >no matter what the concepts. > > > > Ken H > > Hi Ken, Sarah, Nina and all, > > > > How does one actually SEES those things? The > > > "The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated > monk discerns in line with what has come into being. --------- Hi Alex, We have been talking about the dangers of reading suttas unassisted. This is a classic example. By reading a sutta in isolation from the rest of the Dhamma, you have got the impression that concentration develops into wisdom. That is like an alchemist saying lead develops into gold. Or a ritualist saying that walking [around a monument] develops into virtue. One thing does not develop into another. Weak right understanding - with the help of its co-arising cetasikas (right effort and right concentration etc) - will eventually develop into strong right understanding, but that is because they are the same cetasika (panna). Ken H #98948 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 5:12 pm Subject: Re: Yesterday's meeting gazita2002 Hallo jon good fotos, hope you and sarah are enjoying yr stay in Italy. As a child, I was a bit confused about Italians, there were many living in my home town and attending the same little catholic school as me, so I kinda thought they were aussies - however the locally grown aussies seemed to have a few issues about them - I know now it is called 'racism'. patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi All > > I've just uploaded 3 pics from the meeting with Alberto. One is in the "Members" album and 2 in the "Meetings" album. > > Jon > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > Hi Alberto > > > > It was great meeting you yesterday and spending time chatting about the Dhamma. > #98949 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 3:15 pm Subject: Today is Esala Poya Day! bhikkhu0 Friends: How to be a Real True Buddhist through Observance? This Esala Poya day is the full-moon of July, which is noteworthy since on this celebrated day: 1: The Blessed Buddha preached his First Sermon: The Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. 2: The Bodhisatta was conceived in Queen Maya who dreamt a white elephant entered her side. 3: The Blessed Buddha made the Great Withdrawal from the world at the age of 29 years. 4: The Blessed Buddha performed the Twin Miracle (yamaka-patihariya ) of dual appearance. 5: The Blessed Buddha explained the Abhi-Dhamma in the Tavatimsa heaven to his mother. 6: The ordination of Prince Arittha at Anuradhapura, under Arahat Mahinda on Sri Lanka. 7: The foundation of the celebrated Mahastupa & enshrinement of relics by King Dutugemunu . 8: The next day the yearly 3 months rains retreat (vassa) of Buddhist Bhikkhus start. The Buddha performing the Twin Miracle of simultaneously producing water & flames from his body. On such Uposatha Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees and head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart, one recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! This is the very start on the path towards NibbÄna -the Deathless Element- This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Bliss, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I..." signed with name, date, town & country to me or join here . A public list of this new Saddhamma-Sangha is here! The New Noble Community of Disciples: The Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be eased, light, swift and sweet. Never give up !!! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Have a nice Esala Fullmoon Poya day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Today is Esala Poya Day! #98950 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 2:14 am Subject: Two truths sprlrt Two truths Hi Sarah (Mike & Connie), I'm posting these bits from the Vinaya, Book of discipline, vol 1, Horner trans. (http://www.archive.org/details/bookofdiscipline10hornuoft) Alberto TRANSLATOR S INTRODUCTION (page ix) [...] This limitation of the Suttavibhanga to an outward and objective field is amply indicated by the striking absence from it, of any passage stating that the observance of the courses of training "made known for monks by the lord" will conduce to the realisation of desirable subjective states. [...] Never once is it said, in the Suttavibhanga, that the courses of training should be followed so as to lead, for example, to the rejection of passion, of hatred, of confusion, to the destruction of the asavas (cankers), to making the Way (one, fourfold, eightfold) become, to the mastery of dhamma, to the attainment of perfection. Always the recurrent formula of the Suttavibhanga declares that breaches of a course of training are "not fitting, not suitable, not worthy of a recluse, not to be done," and so on, and that such lapses are not "for the benefit of non-believers nor for increase in the number of believers." [...] The word Suttavibhanga means analysis or classification (vibhanga) of a sutta, a term here applied to each rule or course of training included in the Patimokkha. [...] Parajika II. 4. 30. (pag 88) [...] The 'making of a rendezvous' [sanketa_kamma] means : he makes a rendezvous (for a time) either before or after a meal, or during the night or the day; [...] [sanketa: plan, schedule, to-do list] #98951 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 6:20 am Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" > wrote: > > > > >--- "kenhowardau" kenhowardau@ wrote: > > >Beneath the concepts, realities are arising and falling. And I think > > >pretty much the same realities are likely to be arising and falling > >no matter what the concepts. > > > > > > Ken H > > > > Hi Ken, Sarah, Nina and all, > > > > > > > > How does one actually SEES those things? The > > > > > > "The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated > > monk discerns in line with what has come into being. > --------- > Hi Alex, > > We have been talking about the dangers of reading suttas unassisted. > This is a classic example. By reading a sutta in isolation from the rest > of the Dhamma, you have got the impression that concentration develops > into wisdom. That is like an alchemist saying lead develops into gold. > Or a ritualist saying that walking [around a monument] develops into > virtue. > > One thing does not develop into another. > > Weak right understanding - with the help of its co-arising cetasikas > (right effort and right concentration etc) - will eventually develop > into strong right understanding, but that is because they are the same > cetasika (panna). > > Ken H > Hi KenH, You are mistaking the Buddhist Right Samadhi vs wrong samadhi. In sutta after sutta after sutta the Buddha has talked about the importance of it. Panna doesn't arise by itself, it is fully conditioned. The proximate condition of seeing realities as they are is samadhi! I hope that you have read my former messages on meditation. I do not preach, infact I am against "concentration with wrong views". The real Buddhist Samadhi is practicing abiding in wisdom and letting go off avijja! with metta, Alex #98952 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 6:49 am Subject: Samadhi -> seeing as it is ->... -> Liberation truth_aerator Hi Ken, Part 2: How do you reach right samadhi? By letting go, relinquishing, giving up, fading of greed, anger & delusion by the means of seeing anicca-dukkha-anatta-sunnata How do you reach Arhatship? By permanent letting go, relinquishing, giving up, fading of greed, anger & delusion by the means of seeing anicca-dukkha-anatta-sunnata With metta, Alex > Hi KenH, > > You are mistaking the Buddhist Right Samadhi vs wrong samadhi. > > In sutta after sutta after sutta the Buddha has talked about the importance of it. Panna doesn't arise by itself, it is fully conditioned. The proximate condition of seeing realities as they are is samadhi! > > I hope that you have read my former messages on meditation. I do not preach, infact I am against "concentration with wrong views". The real Buddhist Samadhi is practicing abiding in wisdom and letting go off avijja! > > > with metta, > > Alex > #98953 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 10:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Howard (98940) > ============================= > While I don't draw quite as solid a line between concepts and > paramattha dhammas as you folks, consider there to be a conventional aspect to the > paramattha dhammas as discussed by many here, I do, indeed, find this FAR > more palatable, and I would not take strong exception to it at all. Concepts > are merely thought of, whereas namas and rupas, as they are and not as > thought about, are actual elements of experience. > =============== I agree with the broad description of concepts as that which is merely thought of. In contradistinction to being "merely thought of", namas and rupas have an "existence" that is independent of any perception. However, I would say there is more to namas and rupas than being "actual elements of experience". Rupas as mentioned in the suttas include, in addition to the objects experienced by the sense consciousnesses, the sense bases, yet these are not the object of experience. Regardless of that, however, the significance of the continued reference to dhammas in the suttas, it seems to me, lies in their being the object of insight development. Is this how you see it? Jon #98954 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 10:13 am Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Alex (98943) > But Jon, the point is that seclusion, at least temporary, is required. > > Look also at MN36 > ""So it is with any priest or contemplative who lives withdrawn from sensuality in body & mind, and whose desire, infatuation, urge, thirst, & fever for sensuality is relinquished & stilled within him: Whether or not he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings due to his striving, he is capable of knowledge, vision, & unexcelled self-awakening." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html > =============== To my understanding, the expression "withdrawn from sensuality in body and mind" does not mean living in physical seclusion. It refers to being without attachment to the experiences through the various sense doors. > =============== > Lay people CAN attain stages of awakening, especially if they go on meditation retreats which are very helpful. But few points to consider: > =============== There is no basis in the suttas for the assertion that lay people can only develop insight if they go to a mediation retreat. There are many instances in the suttas of both monks and lay people attaining enlightenment without having any known "practice" involving physical seclusion. > =============== > > 1) The strength of faculties and lack of many hindrances. The better your indriyas and lesser the hindrances = the easier and quicker progress. > > 2) Those people may have met the Buddha. We don't have such an opportunity today. > > 3) Modern life has far more distractions than the 5th Century India. > They didn't have Radio or TV. The life was not as high paced and they certainly didn't have information overload. Some monks today live in a more distracted way than some lay people of the past. > =============== The idea that "information overload" is a hindrance to the development of insight is purely your own, I think! ;-)) Jon #98955 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 10:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" jonoabb Hi Alex (98944) > I don't know much about this and the suttas do not talk in detail about Gandhabba. It is possible that intermediate being is made of manokaya or maybe it is a certain rebirth in kamaloka (Gandhabba of 4 the world of great kings - one plane above human). > > Maybe there isn't much difference between "intermediate" & full rebirth. If there's little or no difference between the two, then what's the issue exactly? ;-)) Jon #98956 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 10:15 am Subject: Re: Yesterday's meeting jonoabb Hi Azita (98948) > good fotos, hope you and sarah are enjoying yr stay in Italy. Yes, thanks. So far it's been lovely. > As a child, I was a bit confused about Italians, there were many living in my home town and attending the same little catholic school as me, so I kinda thought they were aussies - however the locally grown aussies seemed to have a few issues about them - I know now it is called 'racism'. > =============== Aka dosa which, as we now realise, is quick to find an object! Jon #98957 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 10:17 am Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path jonoabb Hi Alex (98945 > First of all the sutta frequently talk about things to be done, and this IMHO is more important as mere description of what is. > =============== Yes, but my question is, what are the "things to be done" that are mentioned in that passage? To my reading, what is being commended to the listener is the development of mindfulness *while* doing whatever constitutes the normal daily activities of a monk's life. There is no suggestion here of doing certain activities in order for there to be more awareness. "And what more is to be done? We will be possessed of mindfulness & alertness. When going forward and returning, we will act with alertness. When looking toward and looking away... when bending and extending our limbs... when carrying our outer cloak, upper robe, & bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & tasting... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, we will act with alertness': That's how you should train yourselves. > =============== To a starving person the the desert speculating on water doesn't quench the thirst, but the direction to the nearest oasis AND walking/crawling there will eventually lead to quenching the thirst. > =============== If using conventional similes, refernce to conventional actions cannot be avoided. Jon #98958 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 10:21 am Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path jonoabb Hi Alex (98945 > == > Patisambhidamagga: > "A bhikkhu": a noble commoner, or a trainer, or an unshakable arahat.[55] > ... > 160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. > Visuddhimagga: VIII, 157 > > ===== > Please comment. > =============== The extract you have quoted seems to refer to the development of samatha. Perhaps you could give a reference for the sutta itself, and we could look at the context of the extract. > =============== > > > The Buddha awoken (some translate 'discovered') to Jhana. > > > =============== > > > >To my recollection, this is a point you've not mentioned so far in >our exchanges. What is the textual basis for it? ... > It is certainly the fact that Jhana as part of Samma-Samadhi (and other factors) WAS DISCOVERED BY THE BUDDHA and was NOT practiced outside of Buddha Sasana. It is ONLY Buddha's discovery, not a practice practiced by other people. > > Reflection on mind & body was done by many non-Buddhists. But the Buddha did discover the right Meditation. > =============== What do no mean by "right Meditation" (there is no such thing mentioned in the texts)? > =============== > > But it is clear from the Satipatthana Sutta that the development of mindfulness accompanied by wisdom (sati-sampajjanna) as set out in that sutta itself leads to enlightenment. > > > > NO, it is not stated that bare insight leads to Awakening. Insight + Jhana does. > =============== To my knowledge, there it is not suggested in the Satipatthana Sutta that mundane jhana, in addition to the development of mindfulness, is a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment. > =============== > Jhanas are deep stages of mindfulness as well. > =============== Would you mind explaining what distinguishes *jhanas as deep stages of mindfulness* from mere mindfulness, as you use these terms. Thanks. > =============== > > You are perhaps thinking of the conventional meaning > > With all due respect, Jon, it seems that you and other make too much distinction between "Conventional" & "Ultimate" . It seems to me that you read suttas which talk about things to be done in such a way as to DENY what the suttas say by refering to "ultimate realities" and avoiding the big picture. > > Sati can and in some suttas means memory. So Satipatthana could be a post Jhanic insight gained AFTER the Jhana using sati. > =============== Satipatthana as "post-jhanic insight" is an interesting concept, but I don't think it has any basis in the texts (Satipatthana Sutta or otherwise). Jon #98959 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 11:13 am Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (98943) > > But Jon, the point is that seclusion, at least temporary, is required. > > > > Look also at MN36 > > ""So it is with any priest or contemplative who lives withdrawn from sensuality in body & mind, and whose desire, infatuation, urge, thirst, & fever for sensuality is relinquished & stilled within him: Whether or not he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings due to his striving, he is capable of knowledge, vision, & unexcelled self-awakening." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html > > =============== > > To my understanding, the expression "withdrawn from sensuality in body and mind" does not mean living in physical seclusion. It refers to being without attachment to the experiences through the various sense doors.\ 1) Please tell me what is the difference between citta viveka and kaya viveka? ""There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html 2) Please describe how one develops citta viveka 3) Please describe how one develops kaya viveka > > > =============== > > Lay people CAN attain stages of awakening, especially if they go on meditation retreats which are very helpful. But few points to consider: > > =============== > > There is no basis in the suttas for the assertion that lay people can only develop insight if they go to a mediation retreat. There are many instances in the suttas of both monks and lay people attaining enlightenment without having any known "practice" involving physical seclusion. > a) In 5th Century BC India it was easy for a lay person to have a seclusion in their house and without other people. They didn't have TV, radio, newspapers, urgent office work, airplanes flying overhead and so on. Furthermore the suttas don't often talk about lay people going to the washroom. Does this mean that they didn't? No. The suttas omit a lot of such detail. Like a wedding photo has only one snapshot, similiar is here. If the Buddha says "x" is required, then it IS required, even if it is not directly mentioned in the suttas for this or that lay or ordained person. Another point: We often have the sutta where the Buddha delivers the speech and a person becomes this or that stage of sainthood. This may lead to hasty generalization that "hearing" is enough. What the suttas don't always mention is that that person may have been meditation IN SECLUSION for a long time, but what was recorded in the suttas is the Buddha's sermon because IT was deemed important for preservation not the commonly accepted fact of meditation (Bhavana) > > =============== > > > > 1) The strength of faculties and lack of many hindrances. The better your indriyas and lesser the hindrances = the easier and quicker progress. > > > > 2) Those people may have met the Buddha. We don't have such an opportunity today. > > > > 3) Modern life has far more distractions than the 5th Century India. > > They didn't have Radio or TV. The life was not as high paced and they certainly didn't have information overload. Some monks today live in a more distracted way than some lay people of the past. > > =============== > > The idea that "information overload" is a hindrance to the development of insight is purely your own, I think! ;-)) > > Jon Is restlessness a hindrance? Is sensuality a hindrance? Doesn't VsM state that "books" (among other things) are hindrances? These things are basis of information overload. With metta, Alex #98960 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 11:20 am Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (98945 > > First of all the sutta frequently talk about things to be done, and this IMHO is more important as mere description of what is. > > =============== > > Yes, but my question is, what are the "things to be done" that are >mentioned in that passage? Where are the letters in this post? The sutta is right there, please don't ignore what it says >> To my reading, what is being commended to the listener is the development of mindfulness *while* doing whatever constitutes the normal daily activities of a monk's life. >>> But there IS development WHILE doing things. And according to the suttas it is good activity for a monk to "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. [removes the hindrances THAT WEAKEN WISDOM, gets into 4 Jhanas, realize triple knowledge and become Arhat] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html > > There is no suggestion here of doing certain activities in order for there to be more awareness. > > "And what more is to be done? We will be possessed of mindfulness & alertness. > When going forward and returning, we will act with alertness. When looking > toward and looking away... when bending and extending our limbs... when carrying > our outer cloak, upper robe, & bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & > tasting... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, > falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, we will act with > alertness': That's how you should train yourselves. > > =============== > To a starving person the the desert speculating on water doesn't quench the thirst, but the direction to the nearest oasis AND walking/crawling there will eventually lead to quenching the thirst. > > =============== > > If using conventional similes, refernce to conventional actions cannot be avoided. > > Jon Your distinction into conventional and ultimates is idea of later commentators. It isn't present in the suttas. Fact is, please don't misinterpret the suttas in such a way as to squeeze the meaning of the exact opposite of what the sutta says. With metta, Alex #98961 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 11:30 am Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (98945 > > == > > Patisambhidamagga: > > "A bhikkhu": a noble commoner, or a trainer, or an unshakable arahat.[55] > > > ... > > 160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. > > Visuddhimagga: VIII, 157 > > > > ===== > > Please comment. > > =============== > > The extract you have quoted seems to refer to the development of samatha. Perhaps you could give a reference for the sutta itself, and we could look at the context of the extract. > What do you want me to post: The VsM anapanasati chapter or MN118? For your information: Anapanasati DOES deal with insight, satipatthana and 7 factors of awakening. VsM, Patisa, Vimuttimagga all tells us that Anapanasati is a practice. > > =============== > > > > The Buddha awoken (some translate 'discovered') to Jhana. > > > > =============== > > > > > >To my recollection, this is a point you've not mentioned so far in >our exchanges. What is the textual basis for it? > ... > > It is certainly the fact that Jhana as part of Samma-Samadhi (and other factors) WAS DISCOVERED BY THE BUDDHA and was NOT practiced outside of Buddha Sasana. It is ONLY Buddha's discovery, not a practice practiced by other people. > > > > Reflection on mind & body was done by many non-Buddhists. But the Buddha did discover the right Meditation. > > =============== > > What do no mean by "right Meditation" (there is no such thing mentioned in the texts)? > Right Meditation as Samma-Samadhi: "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. "Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. Abandoning sloth and drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth and drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure. "And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture. "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure nor stress. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. The three knowledges "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives.5 He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes and details. Just as if a man were to go from his home village to another village, and then from that village to yet another village, and then from that village back to his home village. The thought would occur to him, 'I went from my home village to that village over there. There I stood in such a way, sat in such a way, talked in such a way, and remained silent in such a way. From that village I went to that village over there, and there I stood in such a way, sat in such a way, talked in such a way, and remained silent in such a way. From that village I came back home.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives. He recollects his manifold past lives... in their modes and details. "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. Just as if there were a tall building in the central square [of a town], and a man with good eyesight standing on top of it were to see people entering a house, leaving it, walking along the street, and sitting in the central square. The thought would occur to him, 'These people are entering a house, leaving it, walking along the streets, and sitting in the central square.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma... "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There's nothing further for this world.' Just as if there were a pool of water in a mountain glen — clear, limpid, and unsullied — where a man with good eyesight standing on the bank could see shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also shoals of fish swimming about and resting, and it would occur to him, 'This pool of water is clear, limpid, and unsullied. Here are these shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also these shoals of fish swimming about and resting.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There's nothing further for this world.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html > > =============== > > > But it is clear from the Satipatthana Sutta that the development of mindfulness accompanied by wisdom (sati-sampajjanna) as set out in that sutta itself leads to enlightenment. > > > > > > > NO, it is not stated that bare insight leads to Awakening. Insight + Jhana does. > > =============== > > To my knowledge, there it is not suggested in the Satipatthana Sutta that mundane jhana, in addition to the development of mindfulness, is a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment. > Because the other thing is said in other suttas. You can't ignore one sutta, obfuscate the meaning of other suttas and read in the minute detail so as to totally change the meaning of the sutta. "When the enlightenment factor of concentration is present, he knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor of concentration';" mn10 With metta, Alex #98962 From: westbankj@... Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 7:46 am Subject: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... farrel.kevin Hi group. Some of you may remember me here from the group as I posted here once or twice. Others, like Jon, Sara, Robert, Sukin, Ivan, Nina, and others (Hi everybody!) might remember me from my visit to Bangkok last year. As many of you know, I had some ideas about Mahayana and started practicing Mahayana again. This is partly due to a lot of Mahayana influence that I had when I studied it before coming to Theravada. I think I made some mistakes though (more about that later) in my understanding and have decided to start practicing (that word!) again the way Ajahn Sujin taught. As you might suspect, I am only holding to the Tipitika as a trustworthy source of Buddhist ideas, as well as the input from my fellow dharmins based on the Tipitika, and not holding to other scriptures. I'd like to talk more later about what led me to accept those Mahayana ideas but unfortunately at the moment I am a little busy bit so I am just going to write this message for now. It feels good to write "here". Hope to get back on the net soon. Talk to you all soon... Sincerely, Kevin P.S. This bit I was going to save for my next message to the group but I just wanted to say again that I am extremely grateful to all the kind help that the group gave me there in Bangkok, especially to Robert, Ivan and Sukin, and of course especially Ajahn Sujin. You are guys are the best and you made my stay in Bangkok great, all of you. Couldn't find a better group of people in a million years, honestly. #98963 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 8:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/6/2009 1:10:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (98940) > ============================= > While I don't draw quite as solid a line between concepts and > paramattha dhammas as you folks, consider there to be a conventional aspect to the > paramattha dhammas as discussed by many here, I do, indeed, find this FAR > more palatable, and I would not take strong exception to it at all. Concepts > are merely thought of, whereas namas and rupas, as they are and not as > thought about, are actual elements of experience. > =============== I agree with the broad description of concepts as that which is merely thought of. In contradistinction to being "merely thought of", namas and rupas have an "existence" that is independent of any perception. However, I would say there is more to namas and rupas than being "actual elements of experience". Rupas as mentioned in the suttas include, in addition to the objects experienced by the sense consciousnesses, the sense bases, yet these are not the object of experience. ------------------------------------------ Actually, it seems to me that they are. I consider them subtle objects of experience, but I'm not looking to get into a debate on this. It's not all that important, not like dukkha and it's cessation through relinquishment, for example. ------------------------------------------ Regardless of that, however, the significance of the continued reference to dhammas in the suttas, it seems to me, lies in their being the object of insight development. Is this how you see it? ----------------------------------------- Yes, it surely is. Seeing the tilakkhana as they apply to dhammas leads to deep understanding of dependent origination and to the relinquishment that frees us. Seeing the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and fabricated status of conventional entities is a good and important beginning but ulitimately not much more than a useful "pointing." Only the direct seeing into the contingent, impermanent, unsatisfying and empty nature of conditioned dhammas leads to knowing nibbana and to awakening, as I see the matter. --------------------------------------- Jon ========================= With metta, Howard Emptiness /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #98964 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 9:45 am Subject: FONDUE? ksheri3 Hi connie, Yea, good advice, although, this is my personal pet peave, it has to actually be expereinced to even attempt to be "known" or "realized". I'll go along, however, since Alex puts forth the foundational material that he himself is gonna have to work on. AT LEAST HE COGNIZES IT and knows of it's presence. About your five question question, maybe it's a Theravadan thing, but I don't know if that's the path to take ESPECIALLY after he has made this momunemtnal leap of realizing that things have to be congized. (my interpretation). Okay, you're asking him to examine the process of meditation and reduce a finite objectity. While I ponder the applicability of questioning the practice of meditation: what is meditation, where does meditation come from, et al? Now that I think about it maybe you've gotta better Avenua or Rue to work with. INTERESTING? Why is it that I can see the path and the hedges/thickets/etc that will consume the participant, yet it's virtually impossible to actually define a better or faster way to t travel? Sure, the practitioner has to experience the "thing" which they are trying to master but what actually is that thing which actually corresponds to the actual thought he has in his mind? Pain can be considered as soooooo many different events yet it reaches a very similar objectivity, same with PLEASURE. With this as the case I question, under these new conditions, the reasonability of a "good/evil", a "nirvana/samsara", a "heaven/hell". Now before we get goin on this fertile field of investigation let me say that I have, since 1978, I have refused to apply this term "evil" to anything/anybody since, to tell ya the truth, I have always been afraid of making the mistake of calling something "evil" that is not evil and I have had the complete perplexity of confronting this word and it's conotations, EVIL. Why do people bother with such a useless word? It only serves to hurt, predjudice, bias, misdirect, etc, and yet, for instance, in the CODEX GIGAS the page that has the most exposure to light is the page that has the illustration of the devil. Are there suicidal tendencies within the average everyday middleclass robot that never deviates from the path? Thanx connie and Alex for running me into this post! While the potentiality of "Joined PAIRS OF OPPOSITES" is an interesting thing to consider I'm still formulating some very foundational material between the Samboghakaya and the Nirmanakaya. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > > Dear Alex, > > > N: How is it for beginners who are not a learned meditator? > > > A: The need to hear instruction from knowledgeble meditation masters (not scholars!) AND the suttas. It is also important to have at least a bit of discernment ability for oneself, so that one could discern helpful from not. > > C: What might be the main consideration or even top five questions you personall would ask (of yourself or the teacher) before you'd even recognize, let alone think about wholeheartedly trusting, that one's meditation mastery &/OR scholarly development? Just thinking of Angulimala's student days. > Happily, we seem to agree on there being a "need to hear". > peace, connie > #98965 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 10:10 am Subject: "Elementray Watson" Livingstone ksheri3 Hi Alex IMPOSSIBLE, YOU ARE PREACHING! YOU ARE CLEARLY SAYING THAT THERE IS A RIGHT AND A WRONG WAY TO DO ANYTHING/EVERYTHING. therefore, sorry, you are making a box in which to enclose something and control something, maybe it's a buable or trinket. You are still clinging and b eing posessive. toodles, colette > In sutta after sutta after sutta the Buddha has talked about the importance of it. Panna doesn't arise by itself, it is fully conditioned. The proximate condition of seeing realities as they are is samadhi! > > I hope that you have read my former messages on meditation. I do not preach, infact I am against "concentration with wrong views". The real Buddhist Samadhi is practicing abiding in wisdom and letting go off avijja! > > > with metta, > > Alex > #98966 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 4:06 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation kenhowardau Hi Alex. ----------- <. . .> A: > You are mistaking the Buddhist Right Samadhi vs wrong samadhi. ------------ Actually, I was talking about something else, but you raise a good point. You were saying that samadhi was the "proximate cause of right understanding" and, I agree, that is in the texts. However, the question to ask is, which type of samadhi are the texts referring to? The type of samadhi that arises in jhana, for example, is not the proximate cause of vipassana-panna. Only the type of samadhi that arises in vipassana can be proximate cause for vipassana-panna. In a moment of vipassana, panna is the forerunner. Therefore, according to my [elementary] understanding of paccaya, past vipassana is the condition for present vipassana. --------------------- A: > In sutta after sutta after sutta the Buddha has talked about the importance of it. Panna doesn't arise by itself, it is fully conditioned. The proximate condition of seeing realities as they are is samadhi! I hope that you have read my former messages on meditation. I do not preach, infact I am against "concentration with wrong views". The real Buddhist Samadhi is practicing abiding in wisdom and letting go off avijja! ---------------------- Whichever words we use to describe the practice, it is our understanding of those words that matters, isn't it? Ken H #98967 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 4:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hello Jon, Ken, Sarah and all interested RE: Renunciation What did the Siddhartha Gotama do? 1)Did he live in his palace when he attained Awakening? No. He sat under a Bodhi tree (it didn't grow in his backyard either). 2) Where did Ven. Sariputta and Maha Moggallana spend their week(s) after ordaining? Another example of Bodily seclusion (Kaya-Viveka). 3) Should we disregard comy & sutta passages such as: > > 160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. > > Visuddhimagga: VIII, 157 (you can check yourself) "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. [removes the hindrances THAT WEAKEN WISDOM, gets into 4 Jhanas, realize triple knowledge and become Arhat] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html Didn't Buddha's great disciples (who should be an example for us to aim for) spent at least *some* time in seclusion? VisM XII, 33 "The Elder Khanu-Kondanna was naturally gifted in attainments. He was sitting absorbed in attainment one night in a certain forest. [381] Five hundred robbers came by with stolen booty. Thinking that no one was following them and needing rest, they put the booty down. Believing the elder was a tree stump (khdnuka), they piled all the booty on him. The elder emerged at the predetermined time just as they were about to depart after resting, at the very time in fact when the one who had put his booty down first was picking it up. When they saw the elder move, they cried out in fear. The elder said, 'Do not be afraid, lay followers; I am a bhikkhu'. They came and paid homage. Such was their confidence in the elder that they went forth into homelessness, and they eventually reached Arahantship together with the discriminations. The absence here of harm to the elder, covered as he was by five hundred bundles of goods, was success by intervention of concentration (see DhA.ii,254)." ========= VisM - I, 68 It is proper for an ascetic to be a tree-root-dweller or an open-air-dweller...It is proper for an ascetic to cure himself with putrid urine20 and broken gall nuts". Accordingly he wears a coarse robe, eats coarse alms food, [25] uses a coarse resting place, uses a coarse requisite of medicine as cure for the sick. Then householders think, "This ascetic has few wishes, is content, is secluded, keeps aloof from company, is strenuous, is a preacher of asceticism", Compare the above with passages like MN122 Indeed, Ananda, it is impossible that a monk who delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; who delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group, will obtain at will â€" without difficulty, without trouble â€" the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening. But it is possible that a monk who lives alone, withdrawn from the group, can expect to obtain at will â€" without difficulty, without trouble â€" the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.122.than.html An interesting thing is that things that block Jhana are the same as those that block the attainment of stream entry and higher. This means that a person who posseses the required qualities for Stream (and higher fruition) also posseses the ability to enter Jhana. If one cannot attain Jhana, then one cannot attain Stream fruition and Higher - because their prerequisite conditions are the same. Now, if one can gain Jhana at home. Thats awesome! One can gain fruit pf stream-entry as well. AN 5.257: Macchariya Sutta â€" Stinginess (4) "Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana ... the fourth jhana; incapable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship. Which five? Stinginess as to one's monastery [lodgings]... one's family [of supporters]... one's gains... one's status, and stinginess as to the Dhamma. Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; one is incapable realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship. "With the abandoning of these five qualities, one is capable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; capable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship. Which five? Stinginess as to one's monastery [lodgings]... one's family [of supporters]... one's gains... one's status, and stinginess as to the Dhamma. With the abandoning of these five qualities, one is capable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; capable realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.254.than.html With metta, Alex #98969 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 5:08 pm Subject: Re: Samadhi -> yathabhutananadassana & definition of DSG "non-doing"2 truth_aerator Hi Ken, Nina, Jon and all > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Alex. > > ----------- > <. . .> > A: > You are mistaking the Buddhist Right Samadhi vs wrong samadhi. > ------------ > > Actually, I was talking about something else, but you raise a good > point. Thanks for acknowledging it. >You were saying that samadhi was the "proximate cause of right > understanding" and, I agree, that is in the texts. However, the >question to ask is, which type of samadhi are the texts referring to? Samma-Samadhi as a factor of Noble 8Fold path. > The type of samadhi that arises in jhana, for example, is not the > proximate cause of vipassana-panna. Only the type of samadhi that >arises in vipassana can be proximate cause for vipassana-panna. Can you cite a sutta please? Can you comment on MN111? What sort of samadhi did Ven. Sariputta do so that "...Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers..." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html " Established in it [In what?] he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction*1). With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. ânanda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world." http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/064-maha-malun\ khyaputta-e1.html Jhana. > --------------------- > A: > In sutta after sutta after sutta the Buddha has talked about >the > importance of > it. Panna doesn't arise by itself, it is fully conditioned. The > proximate > condition of seeing realities as they are is samadhi! > > I hope that you have read my former messages on meditation. I do not > preach, infact I am against "concentration with wrong views". The >real > Buddhist Samadhi is practicing abiding in wisdom and letting go off > avijja! > ---------------------- > > Whichever words we use to describe the practice, it is our >understanding of ?those words that matters, isn't it? > > Ken H Ken, Nina, Jon and other DSG'ers; when you say "non-doing", what exactly do you mean? Physical non-doing? This doesn't apply as by moving your eyeballs when reading this there IS physical doing already. Nobody reading this is 100% physically immobile. Kammic Non-Doing? Only Arahants do not do any more Kamma. Their actions are functional only. This doesn't apply to us as we aren't Arahants. Non-doing of volition (cetana)? Cetana is a universal cetasika (Sabbacittasadharana) present in absolutely ALL cittas. Non-doing of Avijja? The way you get into Jhana and especially deeper ones is to let go of avijja for as long as possible. Avijja pacayo sankhara Avijja conditions sankhara. The three sankhara are kaya, vaci & citta sankhara. The sankhara that are tranquilized in Jhanas (especially 2nd, 4th and Nirodha Samapatti) Thus to reach those Jhanic states, Avijja must be sufficiently neutralized. You know why only an Anagami (or Arhat) can enter the Nirodha Samapatti? Because to enter it, all sankhara must be stopped. To stop the sankhara you must completely stop Avijja. For Buddhist Jhana (as part of Samma-Samadhi) you must neutralize Avijja. To reach paths & fruits you need to neutralize Avijja. An interesting thing is that things that block Jhana are the same as those that block the attainment of stream entry and higher. This means that a person who posseses the required qualities for Stream (and higher fruition) also posseses the ability to enter Jhana. If one cannot attain Jhana, then one cannot attain Stream fruition and Higher - because their prerequisite conditions are the same. Now, if one can gain Jhana at home. Thats awesome! One can gain fruit of stream-entry as well. AN 5.257: Macchariya Sutta â€" Stinginess (4) "Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana ... the fourth jhana; incapable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship. Which five? Stinginess as to one's monastery [lodgings]... one's family [of supporters]... one's gains... one's status, and stinginess as to the Dhamma. Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; one is incapable realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship. "With the abandoning of these five qualities, one is capable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; capable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship. Which five? Stinginess as to one's monastery [lodgings]... one's family [of supporters]... one's gains... one's status, and stinginess as to the Dhamma. With the abandoning of these five qualities, one is capable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; capable realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.254.than.html See the overlap? With metta, Alex #98970 From: "Dr. Han Tun" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 7:27 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (31) hantun1 Physical Phenomena (31) Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas): continuation. Questions and comments are welcome. -------------------- Eyesense seems to last and we are inclined to take it for "self". It seems that the same eyesense keeps on performing its function as a condition for seeing which also seems to last. However, eyesense arises and then falls away. At the next moment of seeing another eyesense has arisen. All these eyesenses are produced by kamma, throughout our life. We may find it hard to grasp this truth because we are so used to thinking of "my eyesense" and to consider it as something lasting. The eyesense is extremely small, "no bigger in size than the head of a louse", but it seems that the whole wide world comes to us through the eye. All that is visible is experienced through the eyesense, but when we believe that we see the world, there is thinking of a concept, not the experience of visible object. Our thinking is conditioned by seeing and by all the other sense-impressions. The eye is compared to an ocean [Note 5], because it cannot be filled, it is unsatiable. We are attached to the eyesense and we want to go on seeing, it never is enough. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (IV, Sa.laayatana-vagga, Fourth Fifty, Ch 3, § 228, The Ocean) [Note 6]: "... The eye, bhikkhus, is the ocean for a person; its current consists of forms. One who withstands that current consisting of forms is said to have crossed the ocean of the eye with its waves, whirlpools, sharks and demons. Crossed over, gone beyond, the brahmin stands on high ground." The same is said with regard to the other senses. [Note 5] Dhammasanga.nii § 597. Atthasaalinii II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 308. [Note 6] I used the translation by Ven. Bodhi, "The Connected Discourses of the Buddha". "Form" is his translation of ruupa, which is actually visible object. -------------------- Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas) to be continued. with metta, Han #98971 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 8:54 pm Subject: Re: Samadhi -> yathabhutananadassana & definition of DSG "non-doing"2 kenhowardau Hi Alex, ------- <. . .> KH: > > The type of samadhi that arises in jhana, for example, is not the > proximate cause of vipassana-panna. Only the type of samadhi that >arises in vipassana can be proximate cause for vipassana-panna. A: > Can you cite a sutta please? --------- I can cite a DSG post that cites a sutta. #5691 contains a conversation between Howard, Jon and Robert K. Here's an extract: -------- [Jon:] > References to concentration are sometimes references to > concentration of > the particular kind that accompanies panna of the level of > vipassana. > This is possibly how your last reference is to be read > (concentration that > is `for the ending of the effluents'). _______________________________________________ [Robert K:] I think Jon has explained this correctly. Here is the samadhi sutta. Note the different types of concentration. (the 3rd type is that associated with satipatthana and the last type with advanced stages of vipassana) Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta Concentration "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. 1."And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. 2. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. 3."And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. 4."And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "These are the four developments of concentration." -------- Ken H #98972 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 9:32 pm Subject: Re: Samadhi -> yathabhutananadassana & definition of DSG "non-doing"2 kenhowardau Hi again Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > ... > > Ken, Nina, Jon and other DSG'ers; when you say "non-doing", what exactly do you mean? ------------ I don't think any of the non-meditators ever talk about "non-doing." Volition (cetana) is a universal cetasika, and so there is always "doing". However, that single-moment type of doing is the only type that is ultimately real. Any other type of doing is a mere concept and is not part of the Buddha's teaching (satipatthana: right understanding of conditioned realities). ------------------ A: > Physical non-doing? This doesn't apply as by moving your eyeballs when reading this there IS physical doing already. Nobody reading this is 100% physically immobile. ------------------ The conventional type of doing (which is actually just a concept) can give the illusion of control. But, really, there is no control: visible object arises and (if all the required conditions are present) is experienced by seeing-consciousness. Thoughts of "I am reading" arise instead of "I am playing football" but really there is no control (no choice) involved. Just conditioned dhammas! Ken H #98973 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 12:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samadhi -> yathabhutananadassana & definition of DSG "non-doing"2 upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Alex) - In a message dated 7/7/2009 12:33:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi again Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > ... > > Ken, Nina, Jon and other DSG'ers; when you say "non-doing", what exactly do you mean? ------------ I don't think any of the non-meditators ever talk about "non-doing." Volition (cetana) is a universal cetasika, and so there is always "doing". However, that single-moment type of doing is the only type that is ultimately real. Any other type of doing is a mere concept and is not part of the Buddha's teaching (satipatthana: right understanding of conditioned realities). ------------------ A: > Physical non-doing? This doesn't apply as by moving your eyeballs when reading this there IS physical doing already. Nobody reading this is 100% physically immobile. ------------------ The conventional type of doing (which is actually just a concept) can give the illusion of control. But, really, there is no control: visible object arises and (if all the required conditions are present) is experienced by seeing-consciousness. Thoughts of "I am reading" arise instead of "I am playing football" but really there is no control (no choice) involved. Just conditioned dhammas! Ken H ============================== As I view the matter, non-doing doing is acting without sense of self interposed. Before my hard disk had to be wiped out I had, over a period of time and with much care, created a folder of suttas I highly valued, with the suttas distributed over sub-folders according to a categorization scheme, but that is all gone now. Foolishly, I didn't back up my disk, and I even failed to record the suttas (Nikaya & number) that had been saved in the various sub-folders. I do recall that there was one sutta I had saved that gave a metaphor of the Buddha's awakening that portrayed him as neither pushing ahead that would cause thrashing about nor doing nothing that would result in sinking, and I viewed that as expressing a "wu wei" doing that was a non-doing. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98974 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 7:21 am Subject: Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... glenjohnann Hi Kevin Good to see you "back" here. I remember you well from my trip to Bangkok in February and I remember that many of your comments in sessions with Achan Sujin to be very helpfull. (you probably remember me as one of the two women - with Pinna - who shared your first dinner "out" after you disrobed"). I look forward to more of your useful input. I have been off-line myself for a few weeks - out of town in my case. You are right about the value of discussions with the group in Bangkok and on this site - unique and most helpful. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, westbankj@... wrote: > > Hi group. > > Some of you may remember me here from the group as I posted here once or > twice. Others, like Jon, Sara, Robert, Sukin, Ivan, Nina, and others (Hi > everybody!) might remember me from my visit to Bangkok last year. > #98975 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 7:26 am Subject: Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... jonoabb Hi Kevin Nice to see you back! > I'd like to talk more later about what led me to accept those Mahayana > ideas but unfortunately at the moment I am a little busy bit so I am just > going to write this message for now. > > It feels good to write "here". > > Hope to get back on the net soon. > > Talk to you all soon... > > Sincerely, > > Kevin Looking forward to hearing more from you later. Jon #98976 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 7:47 am Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Alex (98959) > =============== > 1) Please tell me what is the difference between citta viveka and kaya viveka? > =============== To my understanding, both refer to mental seclusion, that is, seclusion from attachments. Citta viveka is mental seclusion of a higher degree than kaya viveka. The point to bear in mind here is that physical seclusion in and of itself has no moral quality to it (think person imprisoned in gaol, hunter in the forest, etc). The only thing that matters is the mental state, regardless of the degree of physical seclusion. This I believe is the approach taken by the Buddha in other contexts. > =============== > 2) Please describe how one develops citta viveka > 3) Please describe how one develops kaya viveka > =============== Both citta viveka and kaya viveka refer to levels of samatha. Samatha is developed by understanding more and more the kusala or akusala nature of the present consciousness. > =============== > a) In 5th Century BC India it was easy for a lay person to have a seclusion in their house and without other people. They didn't have TV, radio, newspapers, urgent office work, airplanes flying overhead and so on. > =============== That may be true, but the question is whether there is any more akusala just because there is TV and radio to watch or listen to. People in the Buddha's time had strong akusala also. > =============== > Furthermore the suttas don't often talk about lay people going to the washroom. Does this mean that they didn't? No. The suttas omit a lot of such detail. Like a wedding photo has only one snapshot, similiar is here. > =============== Again, true. But if you wish to assert that the degree of sensory input is a significant factor in the development of insight, you need to have some basis for that assertion in the texts. > =============== > If the Buddha says "x" is required, then it IS required, even if it is not directly mentioned in the suttas for this or that lay or ordained person. > =============== It all depends on the context, and whether the Buddha was laying down a proposition of general application (e.g., "All dhammas are not-self") or was describing how persons of a particular disposition (e.g., monks developing jhanas) might attain enlightenment with jhana as basis. > =============== > Another point: We often have the sutta where the Buddha delivers the speech and a person becomes this or that stage of sainthood. This may lead to hasty generalization that "hearing" is enough. What the suttas don't always mention is that that person may have been meditation IN SECLUSION for a long time, but what was recorded in the suttas is the Buddha's sermon because IT was deemed important for preservation not the commonly accepted fact of meditation (Bhavana) > =============== Agreed that we have to read each sutta, each passage, in the light of the suttas/texts as a whole. Very important. But if you wish to assert that all those who attained enlightenment must have been meditating in seclusion for a long time, there needs to be some basis for this in the texts. Otherwise it's just speculation. > =============== > Is restlessness a hindrance? Is sensuality a hindrance? > > Doesn't VsM state that "books" (among other things) are hindrances? > > These things are basis of information overload. > =============== I'm aware of statements in Vis to that effect in the context of samatha, but not in the context of satipatthana. Jon #98977 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 7:48 am Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path jonoabb Hi Alex (98960) > =============== > > Yes, but my question is, what are the "things to be done" that are > >mentioned in that passage? > > Where are the letters in this post? The sutta is right there, please don't ignore what it says > =============== The fact is there are no "things to be done" in that part of the sutta ;-)) > =============== > But there IS development WHILE doing things. And according to the suttas it is good activity for a monk to > > "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. [removes the hindrances THAT WEAKEN WISDOM, gets into 4 Jhanas, realize triple knowledge and become Arhat] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html > =============== I read the sutta differently. In my view, the answer to the question "And what more is to be done?" is found in the text that follows the part you've quoted here (see just below). The bit about the case where the monk seeks out a secluded dwelling merely describes the kind of monk to whom this particular part of the sutta is addressed. The "more to be done" is the following: "Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. ... [etc]". Again, it is the mental state rather than the physical act or situation that is being described here by the Buddha. > =============== > > If using conventional similes, refernce to conventional actions cannot be avoided. > > Your distinction into conventional and ultimates is idea of later commentators. It isn't present in the suttas. Fact is, please don't misinterpret the suttas in such a way as to squeeze the meaning of the exact opposite of what the sutta says. > =============== The interpretation given by the commentators is not inconsistent with any part of the Tipitaka. It may not be the meaning that we attribute to the suttas when we first read them, but let's not forget that that meaning is heavily influenced by our own view of things. Besides, the meaning that you would give to the suttas also requires the words of the suttas to be "interpreted", since you are making generalisations out of descriptions of specific instances. Jon #98978 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 7:49 am Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path jonoabb Hi Alex (98961) > =============== > What do you want me to post: The VsM anapanasati chapter or MN118? > For your information: Anapanasati DOES deal with insight, satipatthana and 7 factors of awakening. VsM, Patisa, Vimuttimagga all tells us that Anapanasati is a practice. > =============== There is no need to post more large slabs of text ;-)). I agree that MN 118 deals with the development of insight. But again, the part you've quoted refers to the person who has particular predisposition for, and is already skilled in, samatha. It does not lay down a general rule of samatha/jhana for all. > =============== > Right Meditation as Samma-Samadhi: > > "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. ... > =============== Yes, we have already discussed this passage. As Nina said (if I remember correctly), it describes the development of insight to enlightenment by a monk who is well practised in samatha/jhana. But it does not say that insight can only be developed if jhana has been first attained. > =============== > > To my knowledge, there it is not suggested in the Satipatthana Sutta that mundane jhana, in addition to the development of mindfulness, is a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment. > > > > Because the other thing is said in other suttas. You can't ignore one sutta, obfuscate the meaning of other suttas and read in the minute detail so as to totally change the meaning of the sutta. > =============== None of the suttas actually say what you assert them to be saying. Yes, they do talk about enlightenment with jhana as basis, but not in the sense you take them to. It is impossible to understand the suttas without re-stating the words in ways that are more meaningful for us. > =============== > "When the enlightenment factor of concentration is present, he knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor of concentration';" mn10 > =============== Yes, concentration is present at the time of enlightenment. Jon #98979 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 7:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Howard (98963) > =============== > Actually, it seems to me that they are. I consider them subtle objects > of experience, but I'm not looking to get into a debate on this. It's not > all that important, not like dukkha and it's cessation through > relinquishment, for example. > =============== What distinguishes dhammas from concepts, to my understanding, is that "dhammas" encompasses everything that has a characteristic that can be directly experienced by panna, without needing to be described or thought about. Concepts, on the other hand, have no such characteristic. > =============== > Regardless of that, however, the significance of the continued reference > to dhammas in the suttas, it seems to me, lies in their being the object of > insight development. Is this how you see it? > ----------------------------------------- > Yes, it surely is. > Seeing the tilakkhana as they apply to dhammas leads to deep > understanding of dependent origination and to the relinquishment that frees us. > Seeing the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and fabricated status of > conventional entities is a good and important beginning but ulitimately > not much more than a useful "pointing." Only the direct seeing into the > contingent, impermanent, unsatisfying and empty nature of conditioned dhammas > leads to knowing nibbana and to awakening, as I see the matter. > =============== Yes, I agree with the relative unimportance of conventional entities (a kind of concept) as object of the development of insight. In fact, as mentioned above, such entities have no inherent characteristic to be directly known, and I do not see their conventional impermanence and unsatisfactoriness as being part of the teaching on the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anattaa (even as a beginning step). Jon #98980 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 7:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Alex (98967) > =============== > RE: Renunciation > > What did the Siddhartha Gotama do? > 1)Did he live in his palace when he attained Awakening? No. He sat under a Bodhi tree (it didn't grow in his backyard either). > =============== Yes, the Buddha attained enlightenment while seated under a Bodhi tree. But in his teaching he didn't say that this was a precondition to the development of insight. Rather, he emphasized the need for awareness to be developed in all circumstances of one's daily life. > =============== > 2) Where did Ven. Sariputta and Maha Moggallana spend their week(s) after ordaining? Another example of Bodily seclusion (Kaya-Viveka). > =============== Maybe so, but this is not a reason to think that physical seclusion is a prerequisite for the development of awareness. > =============== > 3) Should we disregard comy & sutta passages such as: > > > > 160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, > his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. > > > Visuddhimagga: VIII, 157 (you can check yourself) > =============== I believe this would be a reference to the development of samatha, not of insight (I don't have access to a copy of the Visuddhimagga at the moment). > =============== > > "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. [removes the hindrances THAT WEAKEN WISDOM, gets into 4 Jhanas, realize triple knowledge and become Arhat] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html > > Didn't Buddha's great disciples (who should be an example for us to aim for) spent at least *some* time in seclusion? > =============== Yes, many of the great disciples did lead lives of physical seclusion. But the question we're discussing is whether physical seclusion was stated by the Buddha to be necessary for the development of awareness to begin. So we need to look at what the Buddha said, rather than what some people did. Jon #98981 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Alex) - In a message dated 7/7/2009 10:48:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Alex (98959) > =============== > 1) Please tell me what is the difference between citta viveka and kaya viveka? > =============== To my understanding, both refer to mental seclusion, that is, seclusion from attachments. Citta viveka is mental seclusion of a higher degree than kaya viveka. The point to bear in mind here is that physical seclusion in and of itself has no moral quality to it (think person imprisoned in gaol, hunter in the forest, etc). The only thing that matters is the mental state, regardless of the degree of physical seclusion. This I believe is the approach taken by the Buddha in other contexts. ============================== The PTS dictionary describes kaya-viveka as "seclusion of the body, hermitism." (Please note the "hermitism," which is physical isolation.) Also, please note part (1) of Nyanatiloka's dictionary definition that I copy at the end. With metta, Howard ********************************************* Viveka 'detachment', seclusion, is according to Niddesa, of 3 kinds: * (1) bodily detachment (kÄya-viveka), i.e. abiding in solitude free from alluring sensuous objects; * (2) mental detachment (citta-viveka), i.e. the inner detachment from sensuous things; * (3) detachment from the substrata of existence (upadhi-viveka). In the description of the 1st absorption, * the words "detached from sensuous things" (vivicc' eva kÄmehi) refer, according to Vis.M. IV, to 'bodily detachment'; * the words "detached from karmically unwholesome things" (vivicca akusalehi dhammehi) refer to 'mental detachment'; * the words "born of detachment" (vivekaja), to the absence of the 5 hindrances. #98982 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 12:40 pm Subject: Re: Samadhi -> yathabhutananadassana & definition of DSG "non-doing"2 truth_aerator Hi KenH and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi again Alex, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" > wrote: > > > ... > > > > Ken, Nina, Jon and other DSG'ers; when you say "non-doing", what > exactly do you mean? > ------------ > > I don't think any of the non-meditators ever talk about "non-doing." > Volition (cetana) is a universal cetasika, and so there is always > "doing". > However, that single-moment type of doing is the only type that is > ultimately real. That may be so. > Any other type of doing is a mere concept and is not > part of the Buddha's teaching (satipatthana: right understanding of > conditioned realities). But with all of this concepts vs ultimates talk the sutta DO talk about sense-restraint, moderation of eating, wakefulness, abandoning hindrances, entering Jhana and realizing triple knowledge. Of course if viewed from microscopic perspective it is all namarupa arising. But this sort of arising & ceasing namarupa that is mentioned in the suttas does happen! > ------------------ > A: > Physical non-doing? This doesn't apply as by moving your eyeballs > when reading this there IS physical doing already. Nobody reading this > is 100% physically immobile. > ------------------ > > The conventional type of doing (which is actually just a concept) can > give the illusion of control. But, really, there is no control: visible > object arises and (if all the required conditions are present) is > experienced by seeing-consciousness. Thoughts of "I am reading" arise > instead of "I am playing football" but really there is no control (no > choice) involved. Just conditioned dhammas! > > Ken H Did you read my post on meditation? You are making a strawman argument. There is non-doing of Avijja in Jhana. Interesting thing is that Jhanas are called Nibbana (Extinction) here and now. Sanditthikanibbanasuttam Extinction here and now 005.06. ûFriend, it is said extinction is here and now, how far is extinction here and now as told by The Blessed One?û ßHere, friend, the bhikkhu secluding the mind from sensual desires ... re ... abides in the first higher state of the mind. Friend, mastering this much, it is said extinction is here and now by The Blessed One. Again, friend, the bhikkhu overcoming thoughts and discursive thoughts ... re ... abides in the second higher state of the mind ... third higher state of the mind, ... fourth higher state of the mind Friend, mastering this much, it is said extinction is here and now, by Blessed One. Again, friend, the bhikkhu overcoming all perceptions of matter and all perceptions of anger, not attending to various perceptions, with space is boundless abides in the sphere of space. Friend, mastering this much, it is said extinction is here and now, by The Blessed One ... re ... Again, friend, the bhikkhu overcoming all the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions abides in the cessation of perceptions and feelings. Friend, without a mastery, for this much, it is said extinction is here and now, by The Blessed One.û http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/09-navakanip\ ata/005-samannavaggo-e.html With metta, Alex #98983 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 12:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon (and Alex) - > > In a message dated 7/7/2009 10:48:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > Hi Alex > > (98959) > > =============== > > 1) Please tell me what is the difference between citta viveka and kaya > viveka? > > =============== > > To my understanding, both refer to mental seclusion, that is, seclusion > from attachments. Citta viveka is mental seclusion of a higher degree than > kaya viveka. > > The point to bear in mind here is that physical seclusion in and of itself > has no moral quality to it (think person imprisoned in gaol, hunter in the > forest, etc). The only thing that matters is the mental state, regardless > of the degree of physical seclusion. > > This I believe is the approach taken by the Buddha in other contexts. > ============================== > The PTS dictionary describes kaya-viveka as "seclusion of the body, > hermitism." (Please note the "hermitism," which is physical isolation.) Also, > please note part (1) of Nyanatiloka's dictionary definition that I copy at > the end. > > With metta, > Howard > > ********************************************* > Viveka > 'detachment', seclusion, is according to Niddesa, of 3 kinds: > * (1) bodily detachment (kÄya-viveka), i.e. abiding in solitude free > from alluring sensuous objects; > * (2) mental detachment (citta-viveka), i.e. the inner detachment > from sensuous things; > * (3) detachment from the substrata of existence (upadhi-viveka). > In the description of the 1st absorption, > * the words "detached from sensuous things" (vivicc' eva kÄmehi) > refer, according to Vis.M. IV, to 'bodily detachment'; > * the words "detached from karmically unwholesome things" (vivicca > akusalehi dhammehi) refer to 'mental detachment'; > * the words "born of detachment" (vivekaja), to the absence of the 5 > hindrances. > **************Summer concert season is here! Find your favorite artists on > tour at TourTracker.com. > (http://www.tourtracker.com/?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000006) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Hi Howard, You are right and this is what suttas tell us. With metta, Alex #98984 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 12:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (98967) > > =============== > > RE: Renunciation > > > > What did the Siddhartha Gotama do? > > 1)Did he live in his palace when he attained Awakening? No. He sat under a Bodhi tree (it didn't grow in his backyard either). > > =============== > > Yes, the Buddha attained enlightenment while seated under a Bodhi >tree. And not just him. MANY people who attained Arhatship attained it either in caves, under trees, etc. >But in his teaching he didn't say that this was a precondition to >the development of insight. Rather, he emphasized the need for >awareness to be developed in all circumstances of one's daily life. > In AN 8.2 one 8 conditions for insight = seclusion "Having heard the Dhamma, he achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html Not to mention that Samadhi -> yathabhutananadassana > > =============== > > 2) Where did Ven. Sariputta and Maha Moggallana spend their week(s) after ordaining? Another example of Bodily seclusion (Kaya-Viveka). > > =============== > > Maybe so, but this is not a reason to think that physical seclusion is a prerequisite for the development of awareness. > AN 8.2 says that it IS one of the conditions. "Having heard the Dhamma, he achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html > > =============== > > 3) Should we disregard comy & sutta passages such as: > > > > > > 160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, > > his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. > > > > Visuddhimagga: VIII, 157 (you can check yourself) > > =============== > > I believe this would be a reference to the development of samatha, not of insight (I don't have access to a copy of the Visuddhimagga at the moment). > The above refers to insight as well. Besides, Buddha didn't teach what some today call "pure samatha". Anapanasati is not pure samatha and VsM, Patis, Vim, the suttas do talk about physical seclusion for it. Jhana are stations of mindfulness/recollection/memory (anussatithana) AN 3.322 Udayin sutta iii, 320, VI, iii, 29 anussatithana SATI is in there. > > =============== > > > > "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. [removes the hindrances THAT WEAKEN WISDOM, gets into 4 Jhanas, realize triple knowledge and become Arhat] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html > > > > Didn't Buddha's great disciples (who should be an example for us to aim for) spent at least *some* time in seclusion? > > =============== > > Yes, many of the great disciples did lead lives of physical seclusion. But the question we're discussing is whether physical seclusion was stated by the Buddha to be necessary for the development of awareness to begin. >>> According to AN 8.2 and MN122 it is. "Having heard the Dhamma, he achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html REQUISITE CONDITION! >So we need to look at what the Buddha said, rather than what some >people did. > > Jon Aren't those people suppose to be examples for US? What makes you think that your path is the easier one than theirs? With Metta, Alex #98985 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 1:02 pm Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (98960) > > =============== > > > Yes, but my question is, what are the "things to be done" that are > > >mentioned in that passage? > > > > Where are the letters in this post? The sutta is right there, please don't ignore what it says > > =============== > > The fact is there are no "things to be done" in that part of the sutta ;-)) > But the PALI SUTTA in PALI ITSELF SAYS and uses frequently words such as karana, karaniyam, ...karaniyanti. =ought to be done. (nt.), duty; obligation. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/039-maha-assap\ ura-p.html > > =============== > > But there IS development WHILE doing things. And according to the suttas it is good activity for a monk to > > > > "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. [removes the hindrances THAT WEAKEN WISDOM, gets into 4 Jhanas, realize triple knowledge and become Arhat] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html > > =============== > > I read the sutta differently. In my view, the answer to the question "And what more is to be done?" is found in the text that follows the part you've quoted here (see just below). > The PALI clearly suggest "these things are to be done." Then it does list and show thing to be done. What questions? Do you think that we should NOT do what the sutta states? > The bit about the case where the monk seeks out a secluded dwelling >merely describes the kind of monk to whom this particular part of >the sutta is addressed. > So are you better than Ven. Sariputta, MahaMoggallana and many other Arhat monks? What makes you think that you don't need their austerities? > The "more to be done" is the following: > "Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. ... [etc]". > > Again, it is the mental state rather than the physical act or situation that is being described here by the Buddha. > In this part the abandoning of hindrances is a mental state, SURE! But the part about bodily seclusion described in the suttas AND VSM clearly state that it is literally intended to be so. "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. [removes the hindrances THAT WEAKEN WISDOM, gets into 4 Jhanas, realize triple knowledge and become Arhat]" > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html > > =============== > > > If using conventional similes, refernce to conventional actions cannot be avoided. > > > > Your distinction into conventional and ultimates is idea of later commentators. It isn't present in the suttas. Fact is, please don't misinterpret the suttas in such a way as to squeeze the meaning of the exact opposite of what the sutta says. > > =============== > > The interpretation given by the commentators is not inconsistent with any part of the Tipitaka. It may not be the meaning that we attribute to the suttas when we first read them, but let's not forget that that meaning is heavily influenced by our own view of things. > > Besides, the meaning that you would give to the suttas also requires the words of the suttas to be "interpreted", since you are making generalisations out of descriptions of specific instances. > > Jon > Generalizations? "Having heard the Dhamma, he achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html There the Buddha has generalized. Seclusion IS one of the requisite conditions for Panna. With metta, Alex #98986 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 1:07 pm Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path truth_aerator Hi Jon, KenH, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (98961) > > =============== > > What do you want me to post: The VsM anapanasati chapter or MN118? > > For your information: Anapanasati DOES deal with insight, satipatthana and 7 factors of awakening. VsM, Patisa, Vimuttimagga all tells us that Anapanasati is a practice. > > =============== > > There is no need to post more large slabs of text ;-)). I agree that MN 118 deals with the development of insight. But again, the part you've quoted refers to the person who has particular predisposition for, and is already skilled in, samatha. It does not lay down a general rule of samatha/jhana for all. > If a person never develops samatha, than how can he ever have accumulations for them? Same with "vipassana" (which I don't consider to be totally separate practice). > > =============== > > Right Meditation as Samma-Samadhi: > > > > "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. ... > > =============== > > Yes, we have already discussed this passage. As Nina said (if I remember correctly), it describes the development of insight to enlightenment by a monk who is well practised in samatha/jhana. > > But it does not say that insight can only be developed if jhana has >been first attained. > Are you saying that 8th limb of noble 8 fold path is not needed for Arhatship? What about Dhp 372 "There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.than.html#dhp-372 > > =============== > > > To my knowledge, there it is not suggested in the Satipatthana Sutta that mundane jhana, in addition to the development of mindfulness, is a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment. > > > > > > > Because the other thing is said in other suttas. You can't ignore one sutta, obfuscate the meaning of other suttas and read in the minute detail so as to totally change the meaning of the sutta. > > =============== > > None of the suttas actually say what you assert them to be saying. Yes, they do talk about enlightenment with jhana as basis, but not in the sense you take them to. It is impossible to understand the suttas without re-stating the words in ways that are more meaningful for us. What about Dhp 372 "There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.than.html Do you meditate, Jon? How much about it can you tell about it? > > =============== > > "When the enlightenment factor of concentration is present, he knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor of concentration';" mn10 > > =============== > > Yes, concentration is present at the time of enlightenment. > > Jon And what is Right Concentration? Jhana Is Right Concentration - SN 45.8 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html With metta, Alex #98987 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 4:35 pm Subject: Jhana is a must for Arhatship truth_aerator Hello KenH, Jon, Sarah and all p1) Noble 8Fold path is required for Arhatship p2) Samma-Samadhi is part of it p3) Samma-Samadhi is defined as the Jhanas Therefore, Jhana (with other parts of N8P) is required. 1"And what, friends, is the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress? Just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. 2"61. And the Blessed One spoke, saying: "In whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, there is not found the Noble Eightfold Path, neither is there found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, or fourth degree of saintliness. But in whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline there is found the Noble Eightfold Path, there is found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness.54 Now in this Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, is found the Noble Eightfold Path; and in it alone are also found true ascetics of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html#t-54 3"And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html With metta, Alex #98988 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 4:58 pm Subject: Pa~n~na requires Jhana. They go together, like both feet for walking truth_aerator Hello KenH, Scott, Sarah, Jon and all interested 1) No Jhana without Panna (means that Jhana is done through wisdom) Natthi jhanam apannassa 2) No panna without Jhana. panna natthi ajhayato 3) Jhana + Panna = close to Nibbana. Yamhi jhananca panna ca, sa ve nibbanasantike. Both Panna & Nibbana require Jhana (#2, #3) There isn't Jhana for whom lacks wisdom, and no wisdom for who lacks Jhana. He in whom are found both Jhana and wisdom, indeed, is in the presence of Extinquishment (Nibbana). Dhp 372 With metta, Alex #98989 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 8:59 pm Subject: "I'm talking to the man in the mirror" Micheal Jackson nichiconn hi colette, Depending on which deep end we go off, we can say pretty much anything and some of it might even make perfect sense according to the rules of conventional language yet have no ultimate meaning at all. What can we say about the man in the mirror apart from his being somewhat colorful, cold, hard & unfeeling? That he's unthinking but doesn't appear without reason in spite of no person really being there? I suppose we could say "the sound of one hand clapping" would be "fingers snapping", which might be "a scream" but in the ultimate sense, no hand makes a sound - even outside the mirror. Rather, sound 'is born of' consciousness and temperature. It cannot arise without the four great primary rupas, but (again with the mirror) the primaries aren't at all dependent on sound. It's also said to be one of the 'concretely produced' rupas, which makes it a suitable object for insight contemplation/meditation. peace, connie ps. I think our cat's been reading DSG. Too bad she's a drooler. #98990 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 5:56 pm Subject: Untroubled Yeah! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is the Fruit of the Noble Way? The Blessed Buddha once said: While alive, then he is untroubled, & when he dies too, then he is not worried! A recluse who has seen the goal, lives undisturbed even in a sorrowful world... Ud 46 Wherever he goes, there he is unafraid.. Wherever he sleeps, there he is unalarmed! The nights and days does neither touch nor burn him. He sees nothing in this world that is to be kept or lost.. Therefore his mind dwells in goodwill and gentle kindness towards all beings until he falls asleep. SN I 110 One who has attained the Dhamma has no task to do, as his task has been accomplished. As long as he has not obtained a foothold, the swimmer must strive to his utmost, but when he has found a place to rest his feet and gone up to dry land, his striving is over, because he has crossed to the further shore... SN I 48 Untroubled, unworried, unconcerned, unagitated & undisturbed! ... Have a nice smiling day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Untroubled Yeah! #98991 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 12:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Samadhi -> yathabhutananadassana & definition of DSG "non-doing"2 kenhowardau Hi Howard, --------- H: > As I view the matter, non-doing doing is acting without sense of self > interposed. ------------------- I think we all act quite a lot of the time without a sense of self interposed. But perhaps you mean acting with right understanding. Even then, however, I can't imagine how there could be such a thing. Acting is a concept. Panna arises only with a paramattha dhamma as its object, never with a concept. (Unless it's a concept of a paramattha dhamma.) -------------------------------- H: I do recall that there was one sutta I had saved that gave a metaphor of the Buddha's awakening that portrayed him as neither pushing ahead that would cause thrashing about nor doing nothing that would result in sinking, and I viewed that as expressing a "wu wei" doing that was a non-doing. --------------------------------- That's the Ogha Sutta, isn't it? Striving results in being 'swept away' while standing still results in 'sinking.' The Buddha crossed the flood by a third way. But I don't believe it was by any kind of 'acting with right understanding.' It was by Magga-citta - a moment of consciousness that has right understanding as its leader and a paramattha dhamma as its object. Ken H #98992 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samadhi -> yathabhutananadassana & definition of DSG "non-doing"2 nilovg Dear Ken, I am just adding a little bit: when it is magga-citta it has as object nibbaana, which is indeed a paramattha dhamma, but a dhamma that is unconditioned. Nina. Op 8-jul-2009, om 9:13 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha crossed the flood by a third way. But I don't believe it > was > by any kind of 'acting with right understanding.' It was by Magga- > citta > - a moment of consciousness that has right understanding as its leader > and a paramattha dhamma as its object. #98993 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 12:38 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, We can find out that considering the teachings is suitable, helpful, that it is a “sappåya” for the development of understanding. This sutta can remind us that there is no limitation to the “field of awareness”. When we are, for example, looking for something in our handbag, or when the shoelace breaks while tying it up, there are only nåma and rúpa, but we are likely to be forgetful. Usually dosa (aversion) arises at such moments. However, sometimes there can be awareness and then different characteristics of realities can be known. Dosa has a characteristic which is different from hardness or motion which appears through touch. Even if there is only a short moment of awareness of a reality it is helpful because it is a condition that awareness can be accumulated. In that way the tendency to take realities for self will become less. If gocara-sampajañña is well established, there can be the fourth sampajañña, asammoha-sampajañña. Asammoha means “non-delusion”. When there is asammoha-sampajañña there is non-delusion about the object of awareness. One no longer doubts whether there can be awareness while one is busy or while one is in trying circumstances. When there is no delusion the realities appearing through the six doors can be known as they are, as not self. When there is awareness of visible object there is no delusion about visible object, it is realized as just a reality, not a person or a thing. ****** Nina. #98994 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samadhi -> yathabhutananadassana & definition of DSG "non-doing"2 upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/8/2009 3:13:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, --------- H: > As I view the matter, non-doing doing is acting without sense of self > interposed. ------------------- I think we all act quite a lot of the time without a sense of self interposed. But perhaps you mean acting with right understanding. ---------------------------------------- :-) No, I actually meant what I said. ----------------------------------------- Even then, however, I can't imagine how there could be such a thing. Acting is a concept. Panna arises only with a paramattha dhamma as its object, never with a concept. (Unless it's a concept of a paramattha dhamma.) ------------------------------------------ So is "concept" a concept! So stop talking about it! ;-)) ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------- H: I do recall that there was one sutta I had saved that gave a metaphor of the Buddha's awakening that portrayed him as neither pushing ahead that would cause thrashing about nor doing nothing that would result in sinking, and I viewed that as expressing a "wu wei" doing that was a non-doing. --------------------------------- That's the Ogha Sutta, isn't it? Striving results in being 'swept away' while standing still results in 'sinking.' ------------------------------------------- Yes, good! That's the one - SN 1.1. ------------------------------------------ The Buddha crossed the flood by a third way. But I don't believe it was by any kind of 'acting with right understanding.' It was by Magga-citta - a moment of consciousness that has right understanding as its leader and a paramattha dhamma as its object. Ken H ========================== With metta, Howard Crossing the Flood /"I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?" "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."/ (From the Ogha-Tarana Sutta) #98995 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 6:37 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. nilovg Dear Alex, sorry for the delay, I just returned yesterday. Op 3-jul-2009, om 17:51 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > N: >Instead of labelling I would like to emphasize understanding of > the >characteristics that appear. Only what appears at the present > >moment, one dhamma at a time, can be investigated and understood. > > ------ > > A: Can you please explain how the above is performed? > > How exactly do you investigate & understand the arisen dhamma? What > do you do. > > How exactly do you understand the characteristic that appear? ------ N: First there must be intellectual understanding of the dhammas that appear all the time in daily life. There are seven ruupas appearing all the time through the five sensedoors: visible object, sound, odour, flavour, and three rupas through the bodydoor: solidity appearing as hardness or softness, heat, appearing as heat or cold, and motion, appearing as oscillation or pressure, at any place of the body. Then there are different naamas, cittas and cetasikas. Seeing experiences visible object, hearing experiences sound, and so on with the other sense-cognitions. Visible object, sound etc. could not appear if there were not the relevant cittas that experience them. There can be akusala cittas with attachment, aversion or conceit, or kusala cittas with generosity, mettaa or understanding, on account of the objects that are experienced. All these namas and rupas have different characteristics, they are not the same. We learn little by little that they are just different dhammas, appearing one at a time, not a person or thing. For example you look at a person, but through eyesense only colour appears, no person. There are other cittas that think of a person, and that is because of sa~n~naa, remembrance, arising with each citta. Even when we begin to understand this, there can be a little detachment from the idea of "I see a person". This is only a beginning, we can call this pariyatti. It is understanding of the presently appearing reality, but not yet direct understanding acquired from pa.tipatti, translated as practice. This is the development resulting from the arising of direct mindfulness and understanding, without having to name realities. You asked: what do you do? Not doing anything else but listening and considering, asking questions, writing, like I write to you now and consider at the same time. You all help me by your questions. You asked: How exactly do you understand the characteristic that appear? It is understanding itself that develops gradually from pariyatti level to pa.tipatti level. Before realizing the three general characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa, which are common to all conditioned realities, the different characteristics of nama and rupa have to be known first. As to these, you do not have to wait: they appear now. Like hardness; before, we took it for a table or my finger, but now we learn that it is just hardness, just a dhamma, arising because of its own conditions. That is the beginning. Its arising and falling away cannot yet be discerned, because first the rupa that is experienced should be clearly discerned from the nama that experiences. This is the first stage of insight knownledge. There are many stages before enlightenment can be attained. Thus, knowing characteristics means: you do not have to wait, they appear already. We should not wish for sati, nor for stages of insight, then we are on the wrong Path. Nina. #98996 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 1:40 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. truth_aerator Dear Nina (and all), > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > sorry for the delay, I just returned yesterday. > Op 3-jul-2009, om 17:51 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > > > N: >Instead of labelling I would like to emphasize understanding >of > > the >characteristics that appear. Only what appears at the >present > > >moment, one dhamma at a time, can be investigated and understood. > > > ------ > > > > A: Can you please explain how the above is performed? > > > > How exactly do you investigate & understand the arisen dhamma? >What > do you do. > > > > How exactly do you understand the characteristic that appear? > ------ > N: First there must be intellectual understanding of the dhammas >that appear all the time in daily life. I agree with the above, and I don't remember when I've ever said that one doesn't need at least someintellectual understanding. One certainly does need to know, at least some things, at least some basic knowledge of Dhamma. Sure. It is just that one should NOT stop there. Intellectual knowledge is good, but it is not enough. Another thing: How much of intellectual knowledge is enough and how much is too much? > There are seven ruupas appearing all the time through the five > sensedoors: visible object, sound, odour, flavour, and three rupas > through the bodydoor: solidity appearing as hardness or softness, > heat, appearing as heat or cold, and motion, appearing as >oscillation > or pressure, at any place of the body. > Then there are different naamas, cittas and cetasikas. Seeing > experiences visible object, hearing experiences sound, and so on >with > the other sense-cognitions. Visible object, sound etc. could not > appear if there were not the relevant cittas that experience them. >...[cut] We learn little by little that they are just different > dhammas, appearing one at a time, not a person or thing. I agree that every aspect of existence is fully conditioned and can be analyzed in many conditions. The fact that everything is fully conditioned bring forth anicca, dukkha and anatta. There isn't any unconditional control, even in meditation. If I could control meditation, I'd be surfing jhana, aruppa jhana, Nirodha samapatti at will. > This is only a beginning, we can call this pariyatti. It is > understanding of the presently appearing reality, but not yet >direct understanding acquired from pa.tipatti, translated as >practice. This is the development resulting from the arising of >direct mindfulness and understanding, without having to name realities. > You asked: what do you do? Not doing anything else but listening >and considering, asking questions, writing, like I write to you now >and consider at the same time. You all help me by your questions. So one needs to study, without practicing, and the practice will arise all by itself? Is that what you've said? I consider the methodical and intentional study as possibly an analytic practice that builds up proper attention that eventually will see things. What you have described sounds almost like a form of of analytic practice. I do question the necessity of a very scholastic & detailed analysis. I mean ALL things are anicca-dukkha-anatta and should be gradually let go off. It almost seems unnecessery to break up everything in 121 cittas, 52 (or so) cetasikas, 28 rupa as so on AS LONG AS ONE CONSISTENTLY APPLIES triple characteristic to all and practices at letting go. "Any ending of passion, ending of aversion, ending of delusion. 1 This is called comprehension." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.023.than.html ===================================== "But how does a monk know, how does a monk see, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?" "There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes2 as something separate. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.080.than.html ====== If a monk understands the meaning and the text of Dhamma- even if it be but a stanza of four lines-and be set on living in accordance with the dhamma, he may be called "one widely learnt, who knows Dhamma by heart.". AN ii, iv, xix, 186 Vi (186) Approach ================================== Thank you very much for your reply, With metta, Alex #98997 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 1:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Howard (98981) > =============== > The PTS dictionary describes kaya-viveka as "seclusion of the body, > hermitism." (Please note the "hermitism," which is physical isolation.) Also, > please note part (1) of Nyanatiloka's dictionary definition that I copy at > the end. > ... > Viveka > 'detachment', seclusion, is according to Niddesa, of 3 kinds: > * (1) bodily detachment (kÄ�ya-viveka), i.e. abiding in solitude free > from alluring sensuous objects; > =============== Thanks for this. I wonder what is the basis/source for the opinions expressed by the two compilers? Without knowing that, it's difficult to comment. This subject has come up in the Sangiiti Sutta thread being lead by Connie and Scott. Solitude is one of three "weapons" mentioned there. Nina has given us the detail from the commentary and sub-co (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/95280): ******************* The second weapon is seclusion (in the sutta translated as detachment), pavivekha. The co states that there are three kinds of seclusion: of body, of citta and of the substratum of rebirth (upadhi). As to bodily seclusion, he lives withdrawn, enjoying renunciation. The subco: as to enjoying renunciation, he has endeavour to develop the first jhaana and so on. Co: As to seclusion of citta, this is the citta that has attained superior purity. subco: since the association with defilements has been abandoned, there is seclusion of citta. It has been said that the citta has attained superior purity with reference to the freedom of jhaana. As to seclusion of substratum, upadhi viveka, this is the attainment of the unconditioned, as the co explains. The subco adds: this is nibbaana. ******************* My reading of this is that even the reference to "bodily seclusion" is in fact a reference to the development of samatha/jhana, and not to physical seclusion per se. The physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by the Buddha, as far as I know. Jon #98998 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 1:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Alex (98984) > =============== > > Yes, the Buddha attained enlightenment while seated under a Bodhi >tree. > > And not just him. MANY people who attained Arhatship attained it either in caves, under trees, etc. > =============== Yes, many did. But also many did not. > =============== > In AN 8.2 one 8 conditions for insight = seclusion > > "Having heard the Dhamma, he achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html > =============== This is another sutta dealing with a particular "case where", in this instance the case of a monk who "lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect", this being the first of the 8 requisite conditions mentioned in the sutta. So this sutta is not saying that awareness/insight can only be developed if seclusion is first attained. The second requisite condition is that "he [the monk] approaches him [the Teacher] at the appropriate times to ask & question him: 'What, venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?' He [the Teacher] reveals what is hidden, makes plain what is obscure, and dispels perplexity in many kinds of perplexing things". The third requisite condition is the achieving of the twofold seclusion, as you have quoted. Without the commentary, we cannot be sure of the meaning, but the use of "achieving" suggests to me that it refers to a mental state rather than to mere physical seclusion. > =============== > Aren't those people suppose to be examples for US? What makes you think that your path is the easier one than theirs? > =============== We need to consider carefully what the Buddha actually said, rather than try to emulate the attainments of others. Jon #98999 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 1:48 pm Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path jonoabb Hi Alex (98985) > =============== > > > "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. [removes the hindrances THAT WEAKEN WISDOM, gets into 4 Jhanas, realize triple knowledge and become Arhat] > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html > > > =============== > > > > I read the sutta differently. In my view, the answer to the question "And what more is to be done?" is found in the text that follows the part you've quoted here (see just below). > > > > The PALI clearly suggest "these things are to be done." > =============== Yes. The sutta says that in the case of the monk who is already of developed samatha and insight, the "things to be done" include the abandoning of covetousness and ill-will. > =============== > Then it does list and show thing to be done. What questions? Do you think that we should NOT do what the sutta states? > =============== Not all suttas describe the person of our own level of understanding. > =============== > Generalizations? > > "Having heard the Dhamma, he achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html > > There the Buddha has generalized. > Seclusion IS one of the requisite conditions for Panna. > =============== This passage is talking about a particular case. It therefore cannot be taken as making a general statement to the effect that physical seclusion is a requisite condition for the beginning arising of awareness and insight. Jon