#99200 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:01 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation scottduncan2 Dear Dan, D: "Exactly! The imagined 'uber-controller' is the illusory Self. But 'manopubbangama dhamma, manosettha manomaya'--one mind is author and controller of later mind. Dhammas flow--anicca, anicca, anicca. How do they flow? One conditioning and controlling the arising of the next: manopubbangama dhamma--out of the Atthasalini into the Patthana." Scott: I've understood it that preceding dhammaa have to fall away completely first prior to the arising of subsequent dhammaa - as you say, anantara and samanantara-paccaya. 'Flow' is said just by way of convention, which I assume you mean as well. Sincerely, Scott. #99201 From: han tun Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:34 am Subject: Re: space, continued. Part 2. hantun1 Dear Chew, Chew: My friend in Myanmar forwarded the below information to me, it is extracted from Pali Dictionary by Ven Nyana Tiloka: Han: Thank you very much, Chew. I have Buddhist Dictionary by Ven Nyanatiloka Mahaa Thera. But I did not know why I did not refer to this book. It is very clearly explained in the book. Thank you once again for your kind cetanaa for my knowledge. Respectfully, Han #99202 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:52 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: space, continued. nilovg Dear Chew and Han, Op 14-jul-2009, om 13:36 heeft Chew het volgende geschreven: > Later Buddhist schools have regarded it as one of several > unconditioned or uncreated states (asankhata dharma) - a view that > is rejected in Kath. (s. Guide. p. 70). ------ N: I looked it up and read : is space something uncreated (asankhata)? This view was held by the Uttar. and Mahims. and later on by the Sarvastivaada. I also wrote to Sarah before about this subject, and here is our correspondence: .... S: Yes, I remember noticing this before and raising it once with K.Sujin. It's not a problem, however - the first is referring to paricchheda akasa rupa (the conditioned space rupa), the second as the object of jhana (a concept) and the third to a concept of open space, as I recall. ... >You mention also flying through space as a concept. But now I still find it a difficult subject. ... S: Yes, we have lots of concepts related to space. These concepts are different from the unconditioned paramattha dhamma of akasa rupa. As we know, there can be concepts or the real and concepts of the unreal.> .... Nina. #99203 From: "Chew" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:21 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: space, continued. chewsadhu Dear Nina, Sarah, Han, --- S: Yes, we have lots of concepts related to space. These concepts are different from the unconditioned paramattha dhamma of akasa rupa. As we know, there can be concepts or the real and concepts of the unreal. --- Chew: Basically, I understand the word "unconditioned (asankhata) paramattha dhamma" as "ultimate reality without arising and ceasing". Can you please define the meaning? What is the relation between "concepts of the real and concepts of the unreal" with "the unconditioned paramattha dhamma of akasa rupa"? Thanks and Sadhu. With respect, Chew #99204 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. upasaka_howard Hi, Alberto (and Alex) - In a message dated 7/14/2009 7:53:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sprlrt@... writes: Hi Alex, I doubt you'll pass your Bhuddist studies 0-level with statements such as these:-) - Alberto ... > And how does one see rise and fall? From Samadhi ... >In fact the Buddha awoken to Jhana and he DISCOVERED IT. ... > After unsuccessful attempts at awakening using other peoples methods, Gotama remembered his Jhana experience and that it IS path to awakening. ... > Only the Middle Path, discovered by Buddha, supports Jhana and teaches Jhana as samma-samadhi. ============================== Alberto, your doubts are misplaced and off base, as there are suttas to back these up. Most clearly, IMO, is the sutta basis for the third of these. From MN 36, there is the following: "I thought: 'Whatever priests or contemplatives in the past have felt painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None have been greater than this. Whatever priests or contemplatives in the future will feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None will be greater than this. Whatever priests or contemplatives in the present are feeling painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None is greater than this. But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?' "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' With metta, Howard Samatha & Vipassana /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) #99205 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:33 am Subject: Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. truth_aerator Hi Alberto, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: > > Hi Alex, I doubt you'll pass your Bhuddist studies 0-level with statements such as these:-) - Alberto > > ... > > And how does one see rise and fall? From Samadhi > ... Upanisa sutta > >In fact the Buddha awoken to Jhana and he DISCOVERED IT. > ... SN 2.7 sutta > > After unsuccessful attempts at awakening using other peoples methods, Gotama remembered his Jhana experience and that it IS path to awakening. > ... MN36 > > Only the Middle Path, discovered by Buddha, supports Jhana and >teaches Jhana as samma-samadhi. Everywhere N8P is mentioned. We must be studying different Buddhism, Alberto. With metta, Alex #99206 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q: Can one exit samsara faster truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (99048) > > Nina, Jon (this one is for you as well) > > > > In MN76 the above is called a holy life not worth living. If awakening cannot be made to occur faster or slower, if whatever happens happens due to predetermined causes & conditions then there IS NO PURPOSE IN DOING ANYTHING. If a person commits heinous crimes, he isn't to blame. If a person does everything right, the same thing. > > Everybody is alike. Some sort of apathetic teaching. > > =============== > [snip] >There has just been the assertion that the development of >understanding is a matter of the arising of understanding rather >than the doing of certain actions designed to bring about such >understanding. > > Jon Dear Jon, Nina and all, If "the development of understanding is a matter of the arising of understanding" then that is some form of acausality view. In other words what you are saying is that it just arises without anything able to cause it to arise quicker. If that is so, WHY STUDY and try to "see realities and "satipatthana" " if nothing can cause the arising of understanding (or prevent the hindrances that cause understanding not to arise). With metta, Alex #99207 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:41 am Subject: Re: Supramundane Jhaana truth_aerator Dear Connie, Jon, Sarah, Nina, and all DSG'ers >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Alex, (James,) > > You had asked about the term supramundane jhaana. Skip to the 3rd paragraph if you like, Alex. I thought you'd rather read the whole thing, James. > peace, > connie > > > CMA, Guide to I.30-31: > Connie, Thank you very much for that excerpt. As I understand the point you are trying to make (and I hope you are right) is that some claim that Jhana as part of Samma-Samadhi could merely be a moment where higher magga-phala occurs with "mundane" jhana unneeded, at least for some. Questions: 1)Siddhartha as a child sitting under the tree in Jhana. Was it mundane or supramandane path moment Jhana? MN36 It was called "The Path to Enlightment". MN36. 3) Even in MahaSatipatthana sutta (which some over enthusiastic mistranslated as the only way in contradiction to the fact that Jhana as a path was taught 10x as often, even in that Nikaya) the phrase having removed covetenous & displeasure for the world. "vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam" which requires hindrances to be droped PRIOR to engaging in Satipatthana. Only when one has attained Jhana (MN68) do the unwholesome qualities not invade the mind and remain disabled for while - during the time where wisdom can occur. "And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to achieve any insight when the hindrances are present. > > According to the constellation of their jhaana factors, the path and fruition cittas are graded along the scale of the five jhaanas. Thus instead of enumerating the supramundane consciousness as eightfold by way of the bare paths and fruits, each path and fruition consciousness can be enumerated as fivefold according to the level of jhaana at which it may occur. When this is done, the eight supramundane cittas, each taken at all of the five jhaanic levels, become forty in number, as shown in Table 1.10. > > What about those who achieve awakening from Aruppa Jhana or Cessation of Perception & Feelings? With metta, Alex #99208 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q: Can one exit samsara faster nilovg Dear Alex, Op 14-jul-2009, om 19:38 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > If "the development of understanding is a matter of the arising of > understanding" then that is some form of acausality view. In other > words what you are saying is that it just arises without anything > able to cause it to arise quicker. If that is so, WHY STUDY and try > to "see realities and "satipatthana" " if nothing can cause the > arising of understanding (or prevent the hindrances that cause > understanding not to arise). --------- N: I see your point. This sentence: "the development of understanding is a matter of the arising of understanding", perhaps should be elaborated on somewhat. When a short moment of understanding arises and falls away it is not lost, it is accumulated from moment to moment, and then there are conditions for its arising again and again, perhaps for countless aeons. We could look back and remember that before hearing the teachings we did not have much understanding of cittas. Today we have a little more understanding thanks to the Dhamma. Slowly, slowly understanding can grow. Speeding up? Impossible. In the commentaries it is said that there are three papa~ncas, proliferations, that slow down the development: lobha, wrong view and conceit. When there is conceit one thinks that one understands everything already and does not need to listen. In Thai these are called; kruang nueng cha: a kind of machine that slows down. A warning that instead of going faster we slow down. We should not forget the perfections: patience, energy, determination, and all the others, none excepted. Nina. #99209 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi Jon, KenH, Connie, and all interested --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (99050) > > Hi KenH, Jon, and all interested, > > > > > > So do you try to tell me that you can equally well develop satipatthana at marketplace or strip club as you would be able to do in physical seclusion? > > =============== > > In the case of mindfulness/insight, the Buddha urged its development in all circumstances and situations. See this extract from a sutta quoted by you in a recent post: > > "And what more is to be done? We will be possessed of mindfulness & alertness. > When going forward and returning, we will act with alertness. When looking > toward and looking away... when bending and extending our limbs... when carrying > our outer cloak, upper robe, & bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & > tasting... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, > falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, we will act with > alertness': That's how you should train yourselves. > > [From MN 39; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/98827] > > The Buddha did not identify one place or situation as better for the development of awareness/insight than another. Of course, he encouraged those with the accumulations for jhana to pursue a lifestyle that would support jhana development and its preservation (jhana once attained is easily lost), but over and above that he pointed out that awareness/insight was to be developed regardless of the present circumstances. > > Jon Good quote, but that quote is incomplete. a) By itself that method, or ANY Satipatthana-Vipassana-Abhidhamma will not work as long as hindrances are not removed. AN 5.51 After, or during Jhana. Sure. Satipatthana may bring Arhatship in 7 days or even quicker (in MN85, a noble disciple personally trained by the Buddha could achieve arhatship in 12 hours if the conditions are right). b)Jhana removes hindrances and gives Panna the chance to change the mind and see the truth rather than talk about what previously were the concepts of paramattha, anicca-dukkha-anatta for it. c) The quote above (step #6, Mindfulness & Alertness) is part of a gradual instruction on getting to the Jhana and it follows AFTER #3, Restraint of the senses. So it is NOT an activity that is done "everywhere in lay life". It is activity done in a retreat (physical as well as mental) or as a Buddhist Monk, where one guards the senses so to avoid giving more fuel to the hindrances. 1) Conscience & concern 2) Purity of conduct 3)Restraint of the senses 4) Moderation in eating 5) Wakefulness 6)Mindfulness & alertness 7) Abandoning the hindrances 8) The four jhanas 9) The three knowledges Note the above path is mentioned in 12 suttas in DN DN# 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 =12 Some suttas omit certain steps but they all talk about getting to the Jhanas and gaining arhatship from there. DN#2 Indriyasamvaro -> Satisampajannam -> Santoso-> Nivaranappahanam -> 4 jhana -> Nivaranappahanaṃ -> iddhi -> Arhatship DN2 restraint of senses -> mindfulness & alertness -> contentment -> abandoning the hindrances -> 4 Jhana -> iddhi -> arhatship In DN#3 Vipassana nana (in that case 4 elements body contemplation) happens after 4th Jhana. Mahasatipatthana - only one sutta in DN vs 10 suttas that talk about sense-restrain , abandoning hindrances and getting into Jhanas from which Asava are destroyed. With metta, Alex #99210 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q: Can one exit samsara faster truth_aerator Dear Nina, Jon, Sarah, KenH, Connie, and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 14-jul-2009, om 19:38 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > If "the development of understanding is a matter of the arising of > > understanding" then that is some form of acausality view. In other > > words what you are saying is that it just arises without anything > > able to cause it to arise quicker. If that is so, WHY STUDY and try > > to "see realities and "satipatthana" " if nothing can cause the > > arising of understanding (or prevent the hindrances that cause > > understanding not to arise). > --------- > N: I see your point. This sentence: "the development of >understanding is a matter of the arising of understanding", perhaps >should be elaborated on somewhat. Thank you, Nina. >When a short moment of understanding arises > and falls away it is not lost, it is accumulated from moment to > moment, and then there are conditions for its arising again and > again, perhaps for countless aeons. Please, if it is not difficult describe the causes for wisdom. As I understand, I think you have said somewhere that "listening & considering are conditions for understanding". The suttas do tell us that Hindrances hinder wisdom panna and that their removal allows understanding to happen. AN 5.51. Even the satipatthana sutta mentions the requirement of abandoning the hindrances prior to engaging into it. Jhana removes hindrances and thus understanding can emerge MN68. When it comes to Wisdom, Right View, Right Understanding, etc etc I believe that there are 2 aspects to it a) Removal of existing wrong views b) Removal of the CAUSE FOR WRONG VIEWS. One of the causes for views of Self, wrong views, belief in rites & rituals is CRAVING (MN9). Craving as one of the hindrances that is temporary removed by Jhana and while it is suppressed, the wisdom may be able to cut it off for good. It is like drugging a strong opponent and then killing him (or like cutting Samson's hair and then overpowering him). Obstacles to Understanding. Avarana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html Thank you Nina for your explanation, With metta, Alex #99211 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:21 pm Subject: Major fauxpauxe ksheri3 Hi Alex, Sorry, for not including a quote that is primordial in your applications: "In the third realm, one sees the mutual interprenetration or 'non-obstruction' of li and shi (lishi wu'ai). Rather than seeing events while being oblivious to principle; or concentrating on principle while ignoring events, in thes realm events are seen as instantiations of principle, and principle is nothing more than the order by which events relate to each other." Dan Lusthaus. good concepts, these chinese concepts of Li and Shi! toodles, colette #99212 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q: Can one exit samsara faster ksheri3 Hi Alex, You struck upon an interesting concept, that of the Tathagabahra, which is said to interpentrate everything and is therefore "Having Svabhava" or timeless since it always existed and will always exist. Your thoughts, though, which I joyfully concluded were a heresy or are a heresy, only brought you closer to me in a "mind" sense since you conceptualized something that could not possibly exist in a Theravadan context. Your opinions and thoughts concerning my original post would be appreciated although it is far too late to discover a truer sense of your meanings. Kadag Treckcho is a technique used to describe the "monk's" behavior of entering an order upon the route of RENOUNCIATION, etc. I bow before all monks that have done something that I cannot do, which is to physically take an oathe to a certain order. However, that does not mean that the practices of the monks are something that I or you or any person is excluded from. When I spoke of "heresy" I merely pointed out that you were/are transgressing on fundamentals, upon the foundation, of Thervadan thought and practice. Pishaw, I found a few books in 1980-1 which lead me to the practice of 'sex magik' , UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT THIS SCHTICK OF/ON MAGIK IS AN ANCIENT FALICY THAT NO PERSON CONSIDERS REAL AND THEREFORE NO PERSON COULD POSSIBLY SEE OR KNOW WHAT I WAS DOING AND THEREFORE HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH IT. Essentially I was playing on the public opinion of 'society' which causes them to 'not see' and to 'not cognize', what I was doing openly in public and without fear of any problems arising other than that which would theoretically occur if the practice had "power". Boy was I sadly mistaken. But this is nothing more than IGNORANCE and who can lay claim to being free from IGNORANCE? I was labeled as a heretic and I have been labeled so many things, all of which are negative to the status quo of theology i.e. satanist, or desciple of Anton Lavey, etc. Here, in a Buddhist forum, the terminology has little meaning however I think that it did have a profound meaning to you BASED ENTIRELY ON THE THEORY THAT YOU ARE TOTALLY INFLUENCED BY WESTERN THEOLOGY AND WESTERN PSYCHOLOGY. Let those thoughts go, cut them from your consciousness as is the practice of Kadag Trekcho. Whether or not you decide to honor me with an opinion of what I was speaking of in my previous post does not matter. I have found an interesting concept or conceptualization called "THE MAGICAL NET" through a scholar named Gyurme Dorje and this involves Tantra which certainly relates to the Tathagabhara but also relates to such obscure scholars and practitioners as Padmasambhava. I'm currently focusing on this aspect to incorporate it into the rationale and psychology of the "EXPERIENCE" which i'm performing. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Dear Nina (and all), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear Alex, > > I will think over your post, but it takes time. some duties first: my > > Sangiiti co. part two I have to finish, plus some old revisions I am > > doing. All this takes time. But I enjoy discussing with you. > > Nina. > > Op 10-jul-2009, om 23:36 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > > > Desire, or motivation IS required to do anything including > > > following the path, up to certain stages. > > > > > > There was even a sutta where Ananda has said that craving & conceit > > > CAN BE SKILLFULLY USED. > > Please do. > > > Here is a sutta: > > AN 4.159 PTS: A ii 144 Bhikkhuni Sutta: The Nun > "'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will through the ending of the fermentations enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then, at a later time, he abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. > > "'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then, at a later time, he abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html > > > With metta, > > > Alex > #99213 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. onco111 It is so nice to hear from you, Nina! Thanks for chiming in (...I guess I'm the chime-in-er on this thread, but I still appreciate your response). I find that I talk about Dhamma all the time, but I don't often use words like citta, cetasika, kusala, anatta, etc. (except with my wife) because our culture just doesn't understand or accept them. But many people are open to talking about how mind changes from moment to moment, how our likes and dislikes are reactions to sense data rather than some inherent characteristic of the datum itself, how all our likes and dislikes and worries and "projects" are ultimately empty, etc. > Can anyone force himself not to like certain things or not to dislike certain things? Sure! A small example: a few years ago, my elder son was extremely picky about food. He hated almost any food that would come his way. We talked about the process of flavor hitting the tongue, flavor is registered in the mind, the mind evaluates the flavor and reacts. I told him that the reaction was a choice and not a characteristic of the sensory stimulus, and that he could like a lot of different foods if decided to. We talked about reasons why it would be good to be a better eater: greater enjoyment of food, making things easy and pleasant for the host, reduced burden of aversion in certain situations, etc. After a few such discussions, he made a decision to eat better. Almost immediately he began to eat and enjoy all kinds of foods he hated a day or two earlier. And with delight (and the delight of his parents), he also began to eat all kinds of new foods--something that was almost inconceivable just a short time earlier. > And I think that everyone is interested to know his > own mind, and it is later on that we can explain that it changes and > cannot be ordered to be this way or that way. We can begin with > citta, without using the Pali terms. > What can people experience, and how do they react. We can explain > that there is so much attachment to all objects we experience and > that this attachment conditions aversion: when things are not the way > we like, there will be dislike. > Just a few thoughts. Yup. And our likes and dislikes stem from desperate clinging to our carefully constructed and polished models of "the way things are" (e.g., "broccoli is awful") and "the way things ought to be." The granddaddy of models that we cling to is the image of a powerful, lasting Self that hates unpleasant sensations and needs pleasant sensations to be happy. How to escape from these ditthi? Hearing and practicing Dhamma. With metta, Dan #99214 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:34 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Dear Scott, Great passage from "Dispeller..." Notice how careful Buddhagosa is about the extent and nature of the powerlessness: "there is no exercise of power in these three instances, [namely,] 'this being arisen, let it not reach presence; having reached presence, let it not grow old; having grown old, let it not break up'" (p. 57) Sankhata dhammas arise and pass away with great rapidity. One way to understand anatta is that no matter how hard you try, anicca is reality and you can't change it. There is nothing graspable in the dhammas--void, ownerless, not behaving as desired ['as desired'], and nothing that can be called a "Self". The discussion then turns to how "anatta" is taught by Buddha, viz. nama and rupa are anicca and dukkha: "the Fully Enlightened One, when teaching the characteristic of no-self, teaches it by means of the impermanent, or by means of suffering, or by means of [both] the impermanent and suffering." (p. 58) Although Buddha rarely (if ever) uses the "anatta = no control" model, there is pedagogical value in it. Buddhagosa writes (pp. 59-60): The characteristic of no-self does not appear owing tonot keeping in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements (nanadhatuvinibbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness...When resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of no-self appears in accordance with its true essential nature." I can see how the "anatta = no control" model can facilitate a resolution of the compact into elements. Insofar as it does so, it is useful. But when the model is vigorously clung to, it becomes ditthi. With metta and appreciation, Dan #99215 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:33 pm Subject: Necessity of Samadhi & Jhana. Mundane vs supramundane. truth_aerator Hello Connie, Nina, Jon, Sarah, KenH, Scott and all interested, This is a more thorough reply. 1) Noble 8Fold path is required for Awakening (DN16) 2) Samma-Samadhi is part of it (MN141) 3) Samma-Samadhi is defined as the Jhanas (mn141) 4) Jhana IS the path to awakening MN36 Some say that Jhana could be merely a moment of magga-phala and not "mundane Jhana". If lets say your awakening magga-phala corresponds to 2nd Jhana (or higher) this proves the existence of mundane Jhana that happened prior to this moment on your way to that level. Just like you can't get from 1st floor to the 4th floor without going through 2nd & 3rd floor, you can't get to the 2nd Jhana without going through the first one. What about Buddha recollection reaching Jhana as a young boy and saying that "This is path to awakening"? Since I doubt that Magga-Phala can last for decades, and he awoken from 4th Jhana & nirodha samapatti. In Tapussa Sutta the Buddha talked about his struggle and overcoming of difficulties at mastering 9 jhanas (4 rupajhanas 4 aruppa and nirodha samapatti). All these states prior to His Awakening WERE Mundane. In Anupada Sutta, MN111, Venerable Sariputta had to go through the same 9 levels (4 rupajhanas + 4 aruppa + nirodha samapatti). The satipatthana doesn't have to be stand-alone. Ven. Sariputta did see rise & fall of nama&rupa in Jhana. MN111. "For seven days I sat in one spot, absorbed in rapture & bliss. On the eighth, I stretched out my legs, having burst the mass of darkness. " Thig 3.2 In this case a nun Uttama, was meditating in one sitting position for 7 days! Prior to the moment of magga-phala she was doing "conventional" meditation filled with piti-sukkha (1st or 2nd Jhana). Recall that in SN 22.5 one needs Samadhi to really see "things as they are"(yathabhutananadassana). Before this all the talk about "things as they are", ultimates, anicca-dukkha-anatta is conceptual at best. It is required to learn the basics, but there comes a point where one needs to directly witness them rather than delude oneself that one has "understanding and vision of things as they are". Many people think that they are wise, but how can one know that? Enter Samadhi, at least that way you will know if your knowledge is real and useful or just another mental baggage of dry scholastic philosophy. Satipatthana (DN22) has a phrase in the beginning, even before 1st satipatthana "having removed covetenous & displeasure for the world. " "vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam" And how does one do that? In MN68 it is said that Jhana (or at least state immediately prior to that) does that! Again, 5 hindrances block the arising of wisdom. Jhana removes 5 hindrances and allows the wisdom to come through to the thick mind. Recall that AN 5.51 states that hindrances block wisdom from arising, suppression of hindrances gives wisdom a chance. When hindrances are suppressed well enough and all the supportive causes are set (mindfulness, wisdom, energy, etc), the mind gets insight which will remove hindrances forever. When it comes to Wisdom, Right View, Right Understanding, etc etc I believe that there are 2 aspects to it a) Removal of existing wrong views b) Removal of the CAUSE FOR WRONG VIEWS. One of the causes feeding the views of Self, wrong views, belief in rites & rituals is CRAVING (MN9). Craving as one of the hindrances that is temporary removed by Jhana and while it is suppressed, the wisdom may be able to cut it off for good. It is like drugging a strong opponent and then killing him (or like cutting Samson's hair and then overpowering him). Superficial samatha = superficial seeing as it is. DEEP samatha as part of N8P = deep insights. It is like being lost in the forest at night with a flashlight & a map. Dim flashlight will bright very little of forest and make the path out slower. Bright flashlight will reveal more area and will make one see the important places & features more clearly, thus making the escape from the forest of ignorance quicker. In this similie the flashlight is the Jhana, the map is the insight-showing-the-path. Furthermore, the Satipatthana sutta has a strange set of instructions about seeing external feelings & mind states. This implies telepathic abilities, abilities that can be gained FROM JHANA, especially 4th one. In DN#2 the vipassana nana happen based on 4th Jhana. It is interesting that about 1/3 of DN sutta talk about the same path of sense restraint, contentment, mindfulness & alertness, removing hindrances getting into jhanas, achieving liberation. 1) Conscience & concern 2) Purity of conduct 3)Restraint of the senses 4) Moderation in eating 5) Wakefulness 6)Mindfulness & alertness 7) Abandoning the hindrances 8) The four jhanas 9) The three knowledges Note the above path is mentioned in 12 suttas in DN DN# 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 =12 Some suttas omit certain steps but they all talk about getting to the Jhanas and gaining arhatship from there. Indriyasamvaro -> Satisampajannam -> Santoso-> Nivaranappahanam -> 4 jhana -> iddhi -> Arhatship - DN#2 restraint of senses -> mindfulness & alertness -> contentment -> abandoning the hindrances -> 4 Jhana -> iddhi -> arhatship In DN#3 Vipassana nana (in that case 4 elements body contemplation that is described in Satipatthana sutta) happens *after* (or during) 4th Jhana. Note: (step #6, Mindfulness & Alertness) is part of a gradual instruction on getting to the Jhana and it follows AFTER #3, Restraint of the senses. So it is NOT an activity that is done "everywhere in lay life". It is activity done in a retreat (physical as well as mental) or as a Buddhist Monk, where one guards the senses so to avoid giving more fuel to the hindrances. Taking trips to Rome, Fuji, Bangkok, strip clubs, marketplaces is out of the question (for that would break restraint of the senses, moderation, contentment part of the instructions). Therefore, Jhana (with other parts of N8P) is required and it is an integral part of the path. ===== "And what, friends, is the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress? Just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. "61. And the Blessed One spoke, saying: "In whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, there is not found the Noble Eightfold Path, neither is there found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, or fourth degree of saintliness. But in whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline there is found the Noble Eightfold Path, there is found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness.54 Now in this Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, is found the Noble Eightfold Path; and in it alone are also found true ascetics of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html#t-54 "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html Tapussa Sutta ""Ananda, as long as I had not attained & emerged from these nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments in forward & backward order in this way, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & common people. But as soon as I had attained & emerged from these nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments in forward & backward order in this way, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & common people. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'My release is unshakable. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.041.than.html Buddha Awoke (some translated, discovered) Jhana http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.042.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn02/sn02.007.than.html And how does one see rise and fall? From Samadhi: "The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness." - SN22.5 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.005.than.html Jhana IS the path to awakening - MN36 Jhana Is what Buddha awakened to. AN9.42 & SN2.7 Jhana Is Practiced by awakened ones: Dhp 23 Jhana Leads to 4 fruits: From Stream to Arhatship. (DN29) Jhana Is Right Concentration - SN 45.8 Ending of Mental Fermentations depend on Jhana - AN 9.36 Samadhi is proximate condition to "knowledge and vision of things as they really are" - SN12.23 Samadhi -> seeing rise & fall of 5 aggregates (which is wisdom) SN 22.5 Samadhi -> wisdom Samadhi is the path - AN 6.64 Jhana is the only 4 Meditative absorptions thay Buddha praised. -MN108 Jhana goes together with discernment (panna): Dhp 372 Jhana Is a mark of a great discernment, great man - AN4.35 Jhana is the escape from confinement. AN 9.42 Released through Panna (Pannavimutti) = Jhanas 1-9 AN 9.44 7 Parts of Noble 8Fold path are support for Jhana- MN117 Jhana + discernment is a single thing that can lead one to Arhatship - AN 11.17 The Buddha has recomended Jhana for trainees - MN107 It is *impossible* to break 5 lower and 5 upper fetters without Jhana (and insight after it). - MN64 Jhana are 4 stations of mindfulness (anussatithana) AN 3.322 Udayin sutta iii, 320, VI, iii, 29 Thus, verily, monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the no-whither way. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo AN6.64 No wonder that Buddha has frequently exhorted his monks "Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana,. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." - MN152 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.152.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thig/thig.03.02.than.html http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/02-samannaphala-e2.h\ tml With metta, Alex #99216 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Dear Ken, > My point is that most people are interested in how the mind works even if they don't have the inclination, time, or patience to learn a bunch of technical Buddhist words. ------ Thanks Dan. Just seconds after posting I had another look at your message and noticed the missing quotation marks. But too late. Sorry for making you spell out the bleeding obvious. ----------------- D: > Can you find ways to talk about the mind without resorting to what they'd think are stale models? ----------------- No, I don't think I can. On very rare occasions one my non-Buddhist friends has shown an interest in what I'm studying. They have been known to say, 'Hey, that's really good, you must tell me more one day.' But I've never got any further than that. How about you? Have ever sparked any real interest in the present arammana? Ken H > > > Most people aren't interested in "satipatthana", "dhammas", > > "nivarana", > > > "manopubbangama dhamma", etc., but many are indeed interested in > > > satipatthana, dhammas, nivarana, manopubbangama dhamma. > > > #99217 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:28 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation scottduncan2 Dear Dan, Regarding: D: "...Notice how careful Buddhagosa is about the extent and nature of the powerlessness...Sankhata dhammas arise and pass away with great rapidity. One way to understand anatta is that no matter how hard you try, anicca is reality and you can't change it. There is nothing graspable in the dhammas--void, ownerless, not behaving as desired ['as desired'], and nothing that can be called a 'Self'...Although Buddha rarely (if ever) uses the 'anatta = no control' model, there is pedagogical value in it...I can see how the 'anatta = no control' model can facilitate a resolution of the compact into elements. Insofar as it does so, it is useful. But when the model is vigorously clung to, it becomes ditthi. Scott: Before responding to the gist of the above, a few questions if you will. 1) What is your position vis-a-vis the Commentaries? I ask because in the above you seem, in the end, and with much careful writing, to be disparaging or at least minimizing their contribution, in favour of your own opinions. 2) Do you share the opinions of Thanissaro Bhikkhu? You refer to 'anatta = no control' as a 'model'. I think models are the lowest form of theorizing and are an artifact of the dumbing down of the world. To suggest that 'anatta = no control' is a 'model' is to severely downgrade and minimize it. You also seem to think that one can 'use' something to achieve something else. This flies in the face of what you seem to consider as a quaint pedagogical model. 3) Just out of curiosity, are you by chance an advocate of the quasi-Mahayana 'emptiness' doctrine wherein a dhamma does not, in fact, have its own characteristic? Sincerely, Scott. #99218 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. kenhowardau Hi Howard, Alex and Alberto, --- H: > Alberto, your doubts are misplaced and off base, as there are suttas > to back these up. Most clearly, IMO, is the sutta basis for the third of > these. From MN 36, there is the following: ---- I have an uninformed opinion that I usually offer when this sutta is being discussed. For the little that it is worth I will offer it again: The Buddha suddenly remembered that, in his childhood, he had discovered jhana *by himself*. It was the same jhana that he was later taught by two jhana masters. And so the significance of this sutta does not lie in the nature of the jhana as such. Its significance lies in fact that a Tathagatha discovers his path to enlightenment entirely by his *own* efforts. Just a suggestion. Ken H #99219 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:14 pm Subject: Stilled Silence! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Stilling of all Construction is Peace! The Blessed Buddha once said: Just as the oil-lamp burns on oil and wick, but after consuming of all oil and wick, through lack of fuel, the flame comes to ceasing, similarly the Bhikkhu knows when sensing a feeling limited to this body: I am sensing a feeling limited to this body. Sensing a feeling limited to life, he knows: I am sensing a feeling limited to life. He knows that: With the break-up of this fragile frame, at the ceasing of life, all sensed, not being clung to, will grow cold and cease right there & then... Here this monk, thus cooled, is endowed with the highest unshakable wisdom... This is the highest and most sacred truth, to know how all Suffering will cease! Whatever untrue can be mistaken & mislead! Only the absolute Nibbāna is true... Stilling, Tranquillization, Subsiding: 9 Stillings , Stilling_of_Clinging Silenced (Muni): Silenced , Forest_Bliss , Calm , Feeding_Tranquillity , Tranquillity_Passaddhi Source Text (extract): Majjhima Nikāya 140: Analysis of Elements: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html Have a nice, still and all silent day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Budd ha-Said.net Stilled Silence! #99220 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:00 pm Subject: Re: The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. onco111 Hi Ken, K:> ...noticed the missing quotation marks. But too late. Sorry for making you spell out the bleeding obvious. --> No problem, Ken. You may have missed this one, but I'm sure your eyes see much more than my tired, aging ones! *** K: "On very rare occasions one my non-Buddhist friends has shown an interest in what I'm studying. They have been known to say, 'Hey, that's really good, you must tell me more one day.' But I've never got any further than that. How about you? Have ever sparked any real interest in the present arammana?" --> "Real interest"? No. But seeds planted here and there, certainly. The discussion is usually about: (i) how the object/awareness/clinging varies from moment to moment, (ii) fixed categorizations of the "person" fall apart in the face of anicca, or (iii) ultimately, what types of objects a particular person clings to is not important (e.g., jazz vs. classical music, Republican vs. Democrat, SUV vs. Prius, vegetables vs. steak, taekwondo vs. tai-ji) because we all have the disease of craving and there is a degree of arbitrariness to our choices. -Dan #99221 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Alex & Alberto) - In a message dated 7/14/2009 9:48:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, Alex and Alberto, --- H: > Alberto, your doubts are misplaced and off base, as there are suttas > to back these up. Most clearly, IMO, is the sutta basis for the third of > these. From MN 36, there is the following: ---- I have an uninformed opinion that I usually offer when this sutta is being discussed. For the little that it is worth I will offer it again: The Buddha suddenly remembered that, in his childhood, he had discovered jhana *by himself*. It was the same jhana that he was later taught by two jhana masters. And so the significance of this sutta does not lie in the nature of the jhana as such. Its significance lies in fact that a Tathagatha discovers his path to enlightenment entirely by his *own* efforts. Just a suggestion. ------------------------------------------------ Thanks for thinking of me! ;-) --------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================== With metta, Howard Samatha & Vipassana /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) #99222 From: "sprlrt" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. sprlrt Hi Howard, Ken, Alex > ... Most clearly, IMO, is the sutta basis for the third of these. > From MN 36, there is the following: Here is the line from MN36 setting the context in which the Buddha delivered this discourse (trans. B.B.): "12. Here Aggivessana, before my enlightenment, while I was still an unenlightened Bodhisatta..." i.e. for the Buddha then the wheel of the Dhamma wasn't turning; while for us now it is, thanks to the Buddha. Here's also my own translation of the Dhammapada verse 372: "There can be no jhna away from paa, there can be no paa away from kusala thinking; In whom there are both jhna and paa, indeed nibbna is close by." CSCD pli: Natthi jhaanam apaassa, paā natthi ajhaayato; Yamhi jhaanaca paā ca, sa ve nibbaanasantike. Alberto #99223 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:29 pm Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 4, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Sometimes we have an idea that painful feeling and aversion which can arise shortly afterwards can hardly be separated. However, they are different realities arising because of different conditions. When we burn ourselves the heat, which is an unpleasant tangible object, impinges on the bodysense and it is experienced by body-consciousness which is accompanied by painful bodily feeling. At that moment there is no dislike, the body-consciousness which is vipka-citta, the result of kamma, merely experiences the unpleasant object. The painful feeling which accompanies the body-consciousness is also vipka. It merely feels, it does not dislike the object. The citta with aversion, the dosa-mla-citta, which is accompanied by mental unpleasant feeling arises later on. It experiences the object with aversion, it is akusala citta. When sati arises it can be mindful of one reality at a time, and thus gradually different characteristics of realities can be known. If we try to catch realities and if we have desire to know whether the reality which appears is citta, feeling, rpa or any other phenomenon, there is thinking with attachment, not mindfulness. You wrote that you find that attachment, lobha, and aversion, dosa, can be known more easily than seeing or hearing. Can we say that anything is easy? We may think that it is easy to know lobha and dosa but do we realize their characteristics when they appear? Or are we merely thinking about them? Do we know them as conditioned nmas, not self or is there still my lobha and my dosa? We should realize lobha and dosa also when they are of a lesser degree. For example, when there is seeing there is bound to be clinging to what is seen or clinging to seeing, arising closely after the seeing. When we hear a sound which is loud there can be a slight aversion but we may not even notice it. When there is lobha or dosa there are nma and rpa, there are so many realities we are still ignorant of. Lobha and dosa condition rpas. Dont we look different when we are angry or when we are glad? When we are afraid or when we dislike something we may notice bodily phenomena conditioned by citta. It is not easy to distinguish between the different characteristics of realities. We tend to join different realities into a whole of my personality and thus we will not know them as they are, only nma and rpa, devoid of self. ******* Nina. #99224 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. philofillet Hi Sarah and all > S: This is exactly the same as a discussion I was having with one of my brothers and his partner. They believe that if someone else behaves badly (as they see it, of course) or speaks wrongly, that they should be told, even if it causes distress. For example, if someone (like my mother)rebukes their children with a lack of consideration, the children (if disturbed) should answer back or their parents should, in return, rebuke my mother. They thought that to keep quiet and 'pretend' all was well indicated a lack of truthfulness. > > Jon and I tried to indicate that the problem is our expectations of others and that the real problem is not 'the other person' but our own concerns. Interesting. Obviously the Dhammapada tells us not to consider what the other does, but what we do. But there is a another sutta that tells us that that - I don't have it with me, it's in AN - a person should help others to develop virtue in addition to developing it him or herself. Teaching by example in a non-obtrusive way is usually the best way, but there is a time for intervention. Remember your friends who got in trouble with the law in Hong Kong? There is a time for intervention. I sometimes wonder what goes on in Bangkok, whether there are not some followers of K.S who are too weak (i.e accumulated defilements too powerful) to avoid habitually indulging in the very dangerous behaviour, very harmful behaviour, many men in Thailand are prone too. (Go and tell me it's no different elsewhere, and it may not be in those other countries where sex tourism is common.) I can somehow imagine the Bgk group knowing about a member whose behaviour is out of control,but not intervening for some text-based reason. That would be a shame. Keep an eye out for friends who are behaving in harmful ways and perhaps have a word about your concern that they are harming themselves and others. If it is in vain, fine, but to completely abstain from that kind of intervention for some deep Dhamma reason can be irresponsible and a failure of the mangala of looking after our friends. My two cents worth. The sex tourism is just one example. Domestic violence, alcohol abuse, habitual harsh and hurtful speech, it could be any number forms of akusala kamma patha. Metta, Phil p.s I speak from experience re the sex tourism. I wish I had had a friend who intervened but now I (so to speak) must bear that very heavy kamma. #99225 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. philofillet Hi again > The sex tourism is just one example. Domestic violence, alcohol abuse, habitual harsh and hurtful speech, it could be any number forms of akusala kamma patha. oops, correction. Alcohol and intoxicants fall under the precepts, not akusala kamma patha. But we all know the way they condition all kinds of evil deeds. If I had been under the influence of a firmer teacher (such as U Pandita Siladaw, who speaks of "disgusting and shameful" behaviour quite often) I would *not* have gone into the Hell I got into 4 years ago during my trip back to Canada, a very different form of sex tourism that those who are unfortunate enough to have been following my chronicles will recall. Four years ago I was under the influence not only of K.S but also some western Buddhist thinkers who avoid firm admonitions re the precepts perhaps because of some kind of fear of mixing them with the 10 Commandments, that hangover of Judeo-Christianity that leads some Western Buddhists to be too fuzzy about morality, in my opinion. Metta, Phil p.s sorry as always for my continuing one way posting. I'm sure you can still enjoy responding Sarah, if you'd like. #99226 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:13 am Subject: Re: Annata No self. jonoabb Hi Ron More good questions! (99128) > Does Buddhism ever in any way totally deny the existence of a self? > I know that Buddha would often say what was NOT the self, such as thoughts, feelings, perceptions, emotions, etc etc. > =============== I think there's a good reason why the teaching is given in terms of "dhammas are not-self" rather than "there is no self", and that is because the latter is a deduction rather than an observation about presently occurring dhammas. Seeing dhammas as they truly are (including as not-self) is the path to the uprooting of the view that there is a self; the idea that there is no self is just that: an idea. > =============== > However I have heard that when he was asked flat-out whether or not there was a permanent underlying self that he simply refused to answer because to say there definitely was or wasnt a self was to fall into extremes and neither one was quite correct. > =============== I believe the passage you have in mind is about the matter of "existence". If you could be bothered quoting the sutta, it would be interesting to have a look at it. > =============== > So, Is it that there is a self but it cannot be described by what it is and therefore can only be hinted at by what it is not? If this is the case then I can see why it would not really be called a "Self" because the normal concept of a "self" is exactly those qualities which the Buddha himself stated was not the self, and yet, we exist. Perhaps it is much like in taoism where it says that the tao that can be spoken of in words is not the true tao. Either that or its just total nihilism, which is depressing. > =============== As I see it, the question "Is there or is there not a self?" is not a question that is useful to ponder over. The development of the path involves gaining a better understanding of dhammas. Jon PS Hope I got the name right. Please use a sign-off so that we know what to call you. #99227 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... jonoabb Hi Kevin (99173) > I started to realize that some of the views I had adopted and decisions I > made may have been motivated by psychological factors that I had never > realized. For example, I think it is a lot easier psychologically to accept > the Mahayana view that all dhammas are empty and not truly arisen than it is > to accept the Theravada view that there are some dhammas that are real but > that you as a self-having individual, are not. It's harder on the old ego > to think that something is real but that you are not than it is to think > that all dharmas are just empty and not really arising. > =============== I hadn't thought of it that way. It may be as you say, although in the end it boils down to one's accumulated views about things: what has most appeal. > =============== > > Also, it is a lot easier to think that although there is anatta that there > can be omniscience and some kind of activity after parinibbana (the > Mahayana view of Buddhas). It is a lot closer to having some "thing" that is a > self thing. > =============== Yes, more appealing to accept the possibility of continued existence in a more refined form ;-)) > =============== > Perhaps in my case my ego pulled out some stops to make me believe in some > individual self, some "thing". But, sabbe dhamma anattaa. > > It would be really interesting to see someone do some original research on > psychological reactions and defense mechanisms concerning the doctrine of > anatta in Buddhists, but the people who would do such work are probably few > and far between. Nor would it be completely accepted in the Psychological > academia either because of the Buddhist premise, but it might open some > soft scientists eyes to abhidhamma that happened to give it a read. Anywho... > =============== But what would be invisible to the researchers is the deeply held views with which each person was born into this life ;-)) Anyway, congratulations on your decision to air this on the list. I hope you find this useful. Jon #99228 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q: Can one exit samsara faster jonoabb Hi Alex (99206) > If "the development of understanding is a matter of the arising of understanding" then that is some form of acausality view. In other words what you are saying is that it just arises without anything able to cause it to arise quicker. If that is so, WHY STUDY and try to "see realities and "satipatthana" " if nothing can cause the arising of understanding (or prevent the hindrances that cause understanding not to arise). > =============== No. I was speaking of the nature of a moment of understanding, rather than the conditioning factors for such. Those factors are the ones we have discussed at length already (association with the good friend, etc) plus of course the existing accumulated tendency to right understanding. Jon #99229 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Alex (99209) > Good quote, but that quote is incomplete. > > a) By itself that method, or ANY Satipatthana-Vipassana-Abhidhamma will not work as long as hindrances are not removed. AN 5.51 > =============== I don't agree. See for example the following passage from the Satipatthana Sutta: "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; ... the consciousness with hate, as with hate; ... the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance;..." This is because satipatthana/insight means, above all else, understanding presently occurring dhammas as they truly are, regardless of whether nama or rupa, citta or cetasika, kusala or akusala, mind-door or sense-door, etc. > =============== > After, or during Jhana. Sure. Satipatthana may bring Arhatship in 7 days or even quicker (in MN85, a noble disciple personally trained by the Buddha could achieve arhatship in 12 hours if the conditions are right). > > b)Jhana removes hindrances and gives Panna the chance to change the mind and see the truth rather than talk about what previously were the concepts of paramattha, anicca-dukkha-anatta for it. > =============== Jhana does not remove hindrances; it just temporarily suppresses them. But in any event, the existence of the hindrances is not an obstacle to the arising of satipatthana/insight. > =============== > > c) The quote above (step #6, Mindfulness & Alertness) is part of a gradual instruction on getting to the Jhana and it follows AFTER #3, Restraint of the senses. So it is NOT an activity that is done "everywhere in lay life". It is activity done in a retreat (physical as well as mental) or as a Buddhist Monk, where one guards the senses so to avoid giving more fuel to the hindrances. > =============== Restraint of the senses is a reference to kusala citta. It can occur in any circumstances. > =============== > 1) Conscience & concern > 2) Purity of conduct > 3)Restraint of the senses > 4) Moderation in eating > 5) Wakefulness > 6)Mindfulness & alertness > 7) Abandoning the hindrances > 8) The four jhanas > 9) The three knowledges > =============== Yes, but this is a sutta about what makes a contemplative a (perfect) contemplative: "I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Angas. Now, the Angas have a town named Assapura. There the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "'Contemplative, contemplatives': That is how people perceive you. And when asked, 'What are you?' you claim that 'We are contemplatives.' So, with this being your designation and this your claim, this is how you should train yourselves: 'We will undertake & practice those qualities that make one a contemplative, that make one a brahman, so that our designation will be true and our claim accurate; so that the services of those whose robes, alms-food, lodging, and medicinal requisites we use will bring them great fruit & great reward; and so that our going forth will not be barren, but fruitful & fertile.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html Jon #99230 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:58 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation scottduncan2 Dear Dan, Regarding: D: "I use 'training' as an everyday term for satipatthana. In a long, long string of cittas, occasionally one arises with relatively clear understanding. The recognition of that moment helps condition deeper and more frequent arising of understanding later..." Scott: Well, I'd clarify by saying that a moment of pa~n~naa, simply by arising, *is* the development of pa~n~naa - is in and of itself a condition for pa~n~naa later. It is distracting to interpolate a 'recognition of that moment' into the sequence. To me, this suggestion implies an agent that functions over and above pa~n~naa. Can you say what it is that you think is doing 'the recognition of the moment?' Sincerely, Scott. #99232 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:41 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hi Scott, > Scott: Before responding to the gist of the above, a few questions if you will. > 1) What is your position vis-a-vis the Commentaries? ... > 2) Do you share the opinions of Thanissaro Bhikkhu? ... > 3) Just out of curiosity, are you by chance an advocate of the quasi-Mahayana 'emptiness' doctrine wherein a dhamma does not, in fact, have its own characteristic? It sounds like you are trying to find a box to put me in so that you will better know what to do with me. For my part, I'm not much interested in discussing Dhamma politics. Besides, I don't fit well in boxes--whenever I try to crawl in one, the occupants quickly get sick of me and kick me out! Scott: "You refer to 'anatta = no control' as a 'model'. I think models are the lowest form of theorizing and are an artifact of the dumbing down of the world. To suggest that 'anatta = no control' is a 'model' is to severely downgrade and minimize it. You also seem to think that one can 'use' something to achieve something else. This flies in the face of what you seem to consider as a quaint pedagogical model." --> There is a fundamental difference between reality and ANY words that we use to describe the reality. The words simply aren't the reality; they are concepts that point to the reality. Some words are better at pointing to reality than others; sometimes one pointer works better for one person while another works better for another; at some times one pointer works well for a person, while at other times a different pointer might work better. Buddha was clear about this: he taught in order to help people see reality. He used a wide variety of formulations. By "model", I mean a description of reality in contrast to the reality itself. The words are a tool to nurture understanding of the reality. "Anatta" is a description of the way things are. With a careful investigation of reality, you discover the fleeting nature and insubstantiality of the dhammas. There are lots of ways to describe the characteristic "anatta", e.g., fleeting, insubstantial, uncontrollable, empty, devoid of any of the characteristics of 'soul', etc. These descriptions are all fine, but none of them perfect--after all, they're descriptions rather than the reality itself. However, each of them can easily become a stumbling block when it becomes a subject for intellectual games or an object of clinging. One way to understand anatta is by thinking of dhammas as "uncontrollable", but if it leads you to say something like "people who say they 'practice' are so steeped in wrong view that when they say they 'practice' I know for sure that they cannot attain jhana because their approach is wrong", then it is time to look at a different model! -Dan #99233 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. abhidhammika Hello Howard, Alberto, Alex, Phil, Nina, Chris F, Jon, Sarah How are you? How about the following edited translation of Dhammapada verse 372? 372. Natthi jhaanam apaassa, paaa natthi ajhaayato yamhi jhaanaca paaa ca, sa ve nibbaanasantike. 372. There is no jhaana to the unwise, there is no paaa to the one who has no jhaana. One who has both jhaana and paaa is indeed near nibbaana. The above translation was done by checking the commentary of the verse 372. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org PS- before I finished writing this message properly, I accidentally posted an unfinished message. Please kindly ignore that one. Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com , "sprlrt" wrote: <> Here's also my own translation of the Dhammapada verse 372: "There can be no jhna away from paa, there can be no paa away from kusala thinking; In whom there are both jhna and paa, indeed nibbna is close by." CSCD pli: Natthi jhaanam apaassa, paā natthi ajhaayato; Yamhi jhaanaca paā ca, sa ve nibbaanasantike. Alberto #99234 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. upasaka_howard Thanks, Suan! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/15/2009 10:51:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, suanluzaw@... writes: Hello Howard, Alberto, Alex, Phil, Nina, Chris F, Jon, Sarah How are you? How about the following edited translation of Dhammapada verse 372? 372. Natthi jhaanam apaassa, paaa natthi ajhaayato yamhi jhaanaca paaa ca, sa ve nibbaanasantike. 372. There is no jhaana to the unwise, there is no paaa to the one who has no jhaana. One who has both jhaana and paaa is indeed near nibbaana. The above translation was done by checking the commentary of the verse 372. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #99235 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:09 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation scottduncan2 Dear Dan, Regarding: D: "It sounds like you are trying to find a box to put me in so that you will better know what to do with me..." Scott: Thanks, Dan. Sincerely, Scott. #99236 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:45 am Subject: Enter The Abhidhammika 3 ! abhidhammika Hello Alberto, Connie, Nina, Alex, Howard, Phil, Chris F, Jon, Sarah How are you? Alberto wrote: "The Buddhist path is about devoloping understanding of dhammas now, while they arise & fall, inc. lobha (desire), in order to abandon them and be free from them." What did you mean? Were you equating the whole Buddhist path to udayabbayaanupassane aa.nam only? 6. Paccuppannaanam dhammaanam vipari.naamaanupassane paaa udayabbayaanupassane aa.nam. The above Pali passage comes from Section 6, Maatikaa, Pa.tisambhidaamaggapaa.li. Saariputta listed 73 `understandings, aa.nas' to represent the whole Buddhist understandings. Udayabbayaanupassane aa.nam (understanding of present phenomenas arising and disappearing) is merely one of them, therefore not enough to equate to the whole Theravada Buddhist scheme of things. Alberto also wrote: "Suppressing them through samadhi, concentration on a conceptual object, like the upper lip or nostrils while breathing, is part of the pre-Buddhist path, the development of jhanas." Was the above claim your personal opinion (attanomati)? Or do you have any textual support for your claim? When attempting to answer the above questions, you may need to update yourself with the Noble Eightfold Path discovered by the Buddha. The following Pali passage comes from Dhammacakkappavattanasuttam, Section 1081 Mahaavaggo, Samyuttanikaayo. "`Idam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, aa.nam udapaadi, paaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi." You should try to translate the above Pali passage to realise that sammaasamaadhi, the Right Concentration, was discovered by the Buddha when you read the expression `pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu (previously unheard-of phenomena)'. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #99237 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. nilovg Dear Dan, Op 14-jul-2009, om 22:51 heeft Dan D. het volgende geschreven: > Can anyone force himself not to like certain things or not to > dislike certain things? > > Sure! A small example: a few years ago, my elder son was extremely > picky about food. ------ N: I like your example about the eating habits of your son. That is a good one, really amazing. It shows that wise advice can help others to change their habits. Accumulations can be changed when the right conditions are present. This is encouraging. As the commentary also says which I quoted before: < We read in the (Expositor p. 100): As to the word 'bent on' , the Pali has: pari.naamita, bend to, change into. There can be a change from akusala to kusala if one understands the right conditions to be cultivated. An abundance of right reflection is also a condition for kusala. We need good friends who give us stimulating talks.> But nobody can force himself and like certain things he dislikes on command, and immediately. You gave your son many stimulating talks. Nina. #99238 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q: Can one exit samsara faster nilovg Dear Alex (and Dan), Op 14-jul-2009, om 20:16 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Please, if it is not difficult describe the causes for wisdom. ------ N: The commentary can express this better than I. I just quoted for Dan one part. I continue: < We then read that the Tiika refers to the four wheels that are favorable conditions for the arising of kusala citta with right understanding. These four wheels are: living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, right aspiration, and meritorious deeds formerly done. (See AN IV, 4, 1, The Wheel). Further on the Tiika mentions as conditions for the citta to be accompanied by wisdom: past kamma, maturity of the faculties, that is to say: the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom which have to be developed. Another factor is ones age. The age from forty to fifty is the most favorable age to develop wisdom according to the Visuddhimagga. Kusala citta accompanied by wisdom needs many conditions, some stemming from the past and others that are of the present.> I have quoted this on our list several times. The Co. shows that there is a concurrence of conditions, using the term 'samaya': It shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and it points out . It stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous occurrence of many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many cetasikas, each performing their own function. By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual contribution towards the production of a common result. The Expositor explains with regard to samaya as condition: When we learn about all the different factors that are necessary conditions for the arising of one moment of kusala citta with paaa we are reminded that kusala citta does not belong to us and that it falls away immediately. Kusala citta is very rare and even more so kusala citta with paaa. We have accumulated a great amount of akusala and thus there are conditions for its arising very often. This is a pungent reminder to develop all kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity. ****** Nina. #99239 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. onco111 Dear Nina, N: But nobody can force himself and like certain things he dislikes on command, and immediately. --> Not immediately and not on command, but by hearing, determination, and practice it can be done. -Dan #99240 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. truth_aerator Hi Ken, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Alex & Alberto) - > > In a message dated 7/14/2009 9:48:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > Hi Howard, Alex and Alberto, > > --- > H: > Alberto, your doubts are misplaced and off base, as there are > suttas > > to back these up. Most clearly, IMO, is the sutta basis for the third > of > > these. From MN 36, there is the following: > ---- > I have an uninformed opinion that I usually offer when this sutta is > being discussed. For the little that it is worth I will offer it again: > > The Buddha suddenly remembered that, in his childhood, he had >discovered jhana *by himself*. It was the same jhana that he was >later taught by two jhana masters. Why did the Buddha remember his experience as a child rather than experience of what would be much deeper aruppa Jhana of Alara Kalama & Uddakka Ramaputta? Not only that, but He studied under them more recently than his experience as a child. Why did the prominent spiritual leader (Nigantha Nataputta) of that time thought that 2nd Jhana and higher was impossible? SN 41.8 And while Jhana DOES lead to awakening, why didn't Alara Kalama's & Uddakka Ramaputta's jhana did not? Samadhi -> seeing as it is. Samadhi is 4 Jhanas. Why didn't Alara Kalama & Uddakka didn't see things as they are? >And so the significance of this sutta does not lie in > the nature of the jhana as such. Its significance lies in fact >that a > Tathagatha discovers his path to enlightenment entirely by his *own* > efforts. > > Just a suggestion. But the SN2.7 & AN9.42 says that Buddha awoken to Jhana. With metta, Alex #99241 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:10 pm Subject: Re: Ethics question truth_aerator Hello Phil, and all, > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: >Interesting. Obviously the Dhammapada tells us not to consider what >the other does, but what we do. But there is a another sutta that >tells us that that - I don't have it with me, it's in AN - a person >should help others to develop virtue in addition to developing it >him or herself. Teaching by example in a non-obtrusive way is >usually the best >>way, but there is a time for intervention. Lets say there is wrong teaching going around masquerading as Buddhism. Should one point it out as being wrong or let the Sasana degrade? I know from experience on multiple boards (not just Buddhist) that some people hold to their opinions so tenaciously that no kind of argument can convince them otherwise. The hope remains that some people with a spark of wisdom could be guided toward the light. ex: some Mahayana concepts, Tantra, some secularized ideas, and many more. P.S. Phil, I got your email but my email problem didn't want to deliver it to you (some error). Thank you for your email. With metta, Alex #99242 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:32 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi Jon and all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (99209) > > Good quote, but that quote is incomplete. > > > > a) By itself that method, or ANY Satipatthana-Vipassana- >Abhidhamma will not work as long as hindrances are not removed. AN >5.51 > > =============== > > I don't agree. See for example the following passage from the Satipatthana Sutta: > Did you read AN 5.51? When there is a moment of lust it is already due to lapsed mindfulness in that moment. Do you agree that one citta cannot have (wholesome) sati, panna & unwholesome thing present? Please don't disregard the important line found in satipatthana sutta itself "having removed covetenous & displeasure for the world." vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam. How does one do that? In MN68 it is said that Jhana (or at least state immediately prior to that) does that! Sati also means memory. You consider the PAST hindrances using, perhaps those that happened prior to you removing them for satipatthana to happen. Remember all the contemplation on hindrances occur after one "having removed covetenous & displeasure for the world." vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam. What hindrances can exist at that time? > "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; ... the consciousness with hate, as with hate; ... the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance;..." > > This is because satipatthana/insight means, above all else, understanding presently occurring dhammas as they truly are, regardless of whether nama or rupa, citta or cetasika, kusala or akusala, mind-door or sense-door, etc. >>>> As I've said above, kusala cannot simulteneously coexist with akusala at the same citta. It is either/or. The panna CAN take *previous* mind moments for study. In any case, it is instruction of Satipatthana to REMOVE hindrances. AN 5.51 does state that wisdom is IMPOSSIBLE when there are hindrances. Wisdom can take previous akusala states for examination, though. > > > =============== > > After, or during Jhana. Sure. Satipatthana may bring Arhatship in 7 days or even quicker (in MN85, a noble disciple personally trained by the Buddha could achieve arhatship in 12 hours if the conditions are right). > > > > b)Jhana removes hindrances and gives Panna the chance to change the mind and see the truth rather than talk about what previously were the concepts of paramattha, anicca- dukkha-anatta for it. > > =============== > > Jhana does not remove hindrances; it just temporarily suppresses them. But in any event, the existence of the hindrances is not an obstacle to the arising of satipatthana/insight. > Hindrances IS an obstacle. That is why they are called hindrances AN5.51. We must be reading different suttas. Niivara.na = obstacle or hindrance (to the progress of mind). nivaara.na = prevention; warding off; refusal. > > =============== > > > > c) The quote above (step #6, Mindfulness & Alertness) is part of a gradual instruction on getting to the Jhana and it follows AFTER #3, Restraint of the senses. So it is NOT an activity that is done "everywhere in lay life". It is activity done in a retreat (physical as well as mental) or as a Buddhist Monk, where one guards the senses so to avoid giving more fuel to the hindrances. > > =============== > > Restraint of the senses is a reference to kusala citta. It can occur in any circumstances. > Sutta please? While it is true that restraint of sense is kusala citta, it is important objective condition to give wisdom a chance by avoiding certain unsuitable places & sights which can be grabbed by avijja and all the unwholesome latent tendencies.You do know about 10 precepts where 7th. Nacca-gita-vadita-visuka-dassana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from dancing,singing, music, going to see entertainments. 8. Mala-gandha-vilepana-dharana-mandana-vibhusanatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami. I undertake the precept to refrain from wearing garlands, using perfumes, and beautifying the body with cosmetics. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/dasasila.html These have specific reason, to restrain things that can be the basis for hindrances to lust about. > > =============== > > 1) Conscience & concern > > 2) Purity of conduct > > 3)Restraint of the senses > > 4) Moderation in eating > > 5) Wakefulness > > 6)Mindfulness & alertness > > 7) Abandoning the hindrances > > 8) The four jhanas > > 9) The three knowledges > > =============== > > Yes, but this is a sutta about what makes a contemplative a > (perfect) contemplative: Isn't it wholesome to be perfect contemplative? Or at least to do your best being one? With metta, Alex #99243 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:39 pm Subject: the dirty dozen. nichiconn dear phil, not to say you aren't special, but there are only eight named lusting types... actually, that's quite a diversity: hateful ones only two; ditto deluded. "Help, Cecil, help!" "I'm coming, Beany Boy!" Who knows whether superheros will find a cause worthy enough to rise to the occasion. While one Fantastic Four sings "I wanna hold your hand", they aren't Samvega, Saddha, Sati... help me out here, we need at least a Super7, nine if we'd like to keep Samaya... but who wants to talk about comic strips & clubs? Still, I guess the moral is that while there's a lot of beatings going on, most so called students enter the dojo turning the same old tricks & never do kick ass. peace, connie Nina: Kusala citta is very rare and even more so kusala citta with pa~n~naa. We have accumulated a great amount of akusala and thus there are conditions for its arising very often. This is a pungent reminder to develop all kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity. #99244 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q: Can one exit samsara faster truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex (and Dan), > Op 14-jul-2009, om 20:16 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > Please, if it is not difficult describe the causes for wisdom. > ------ > N: The commentary can express this better than I. I just quoted for > Dan one part. > I continue: > < We then read that the Tiika refers to the four wheels that are > favorable conditions for the arising of kusala citta with right > understanding. These four wheels are: living in a suitable place, > association with noble persons, right aspiration, and meritorious > deeds formerly done. (See AN IV, 4, 1, The Wheel). > Further on the Tiika mentions as conditions for the citta to be > accompanied by wisdom: past kamma, maturity of the faculties, that is > to say: the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, > concentration and wisdom which have to be developed. Another factor > is one's age. The age from forty to fifty is the most favorable age > to develop wisdom according to the Visuddhimagga. > Kusala citta accompanied by wisdom needs many conditions, some > stemming from the past and others that are of the present.> > I have quoted this on our list several times. The Co. shows that > there is a concurrence of conditions, using the term 'samaya': > circumstances, such as existence as a human being, the rise of the > Buddha, and the stability of the good Law, etc.... > It shows the > extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and > it points out . It stresses that > advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and > earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is > very difficult: dark by a lightning-flash, because of its extremely short duration.> > Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous > occurrence of many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many > cetasikas, each performing their own function. > By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual > contribution towards the production of a common result. The Expositor > explains with regard to samaya as condition: thus the condition, the conceit of one who believes that states > unconditionally follow one's own will is subdued.> > > When we learn about all the different factors that are necessary > conditions for the arising of one moment of kusala citta with paaa > we are reminded that kusala citta does not belong to us and that it > falls away immediately. Kusala citta is very rare and even more so > kusala citta with paaa. We have accumulated a great amount of > akusala and thus there are conditions for its arising very often. > This is a pungent reminder to develop all kinds of kusala for which > there is an opportunity. > > ****** > Nina. Dear Nina (and all), Thank you very much for your reply. I'd just like to add that Buddha taught a noble 8 FOLD path, not 7 fold path and certainly not 1fold path. AN 9.12 says that Panna gets perfected only at Arhatship level Samadhi at Anagami level and perfected sila is found in stream enterer. Sila->Samadhi->Panna. Note which comes first and which supports which. Ultimately it is panna that liberates, but it has to be supported by samadhi. With metta, Alex #99245 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. gazita2002 hallo Sarah, Phil and all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > S: This is exactly the same as a discussion I was having with one of my brothers and his partner. They believe that if someone else behaves badly (as they see it, of course) or speaks wrongly, that they should be told, even if it causes distress. For example, if someone (like my mother)rebukes their children with a lack of consideration, the children (if disturbed) should answer back or their parents should, in return, rebuke my mother. They thought that to keep quiet and 'pretend' all was well indicated a lack of truthfulness. > > > > Jon and I tried to indicate that the problem is our expectations of others and that the real problem is not 'the other person' but our own concerns. > > Interesting. Obviously the Dhammapada tells us not to consider what the other does, but what we do. But there is a another sutta that tells us that that - I don't have it with me, it's in AN - a person should help others to develop virtue in addition to developing it him or herself. Teaching by example in a non-obtrusive way is usually the best way, but there is a time for intervention. azita: I find this a difficult arena. I agree with Sarah about it not being the other person but our own concerns. I think when I do make comments about others behaviour, and I seem to do that less and less these days bec I'm not sure where I'm coming from, eg I feel as if there is a lot of mana involved - on my part. when I hear others 'bad mouthing' someone else, there is a cringing feeling and then I'm almsot sure mana pops right in there, comparing myself eg 'oh, I wouldnt say that' blah, blah. Or worse still ;-( I may agree with them! An ocean of concepts until a moment of right understanding and then sea of concepts again. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #99246 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:22 pm Subject: We see anicca: So why aren't we all Awakened? truth_aerator Hello Nina, Sarah, Jon, Scott, KenH and all, Repeatedly the Buddha says that those who see Anicca (impermanence) drop the fetters, (including wrong views) see the other noble truths, incline toward Nibbana and reach Arhatship. One even doesn't have to see-see these things, belief in them is sufficient to make one a faith follower (see okkanti-samyutta) who will die as a stream-enterer. But if we go around the street and ask people: does your body change, do the sights, smells, tastes, touches, feelings, intentions, thoughts, ideas, cognitions, etc change? 99.9999% of people will say yes. If it is so. Why aren't all people enlightened? =================== CDB pg 1220 Salayatanavagga 165 (10) Abandoning wrong views: "How should one see. for wrong view to be abandoned? " Buddha: "When one knows and sees eye as impermanent, wrong view is abandoned. When one knows and sees forms as impermanent... eye consciousness as impermanent... eye contact as impermanent... whatever feeling arises with mind contact as condition... as impermanent, wrong view is abandoned. It is when one knows and sees thus that wrong view is abandoned." AN 6.102 6 rewards of anicca-sanna "In seeing six rewards, it's enough motivation for a monk to establish the perception of inconstancy with regard to all fabrications without exception. Which six? 'All fabrications will appear as unstable. My mind will not delight in any world. My mind will rise above every world. My heart will be inclined to Unbinding. My fetters1 will go to their abandoning. I'll be endowed with the foremost qualities of the contemplative life.' "In seeing these six rewards, it's enough for a monk to establish the perception of inconstancy with regard to all fabrications without exception." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.102.than.html Dukkha Sanna in seeing six rewards, it's enough motivation for a monk to establish the perception of stress with regard to all fabrications without exception. Which six? 'The perception of disenchantment1 will be established within me with regard to all fabrications, like a murderer with a drawn sword. My mind will rise above every world. I'll become one who sees peace in Unbinding. My obsessions2 will go to their destruction. I'll be one who has completed his task. The Teacher will have been served with good will.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.103.than.html Anatta-sanna In seeing six rewards, it's enough motivation for a monk to establish the perception of not-self with regard to all phenomena without exception. Which six? 'I won't be fashioned in connection with any world. My I-making will be stopped. My my-making will be stopped. I'll be endowed with uncommon knowledge.1 I'll become one who rightly sees cause, along with causally-originated phenomena.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.104.than.html With metta, Alex #99247 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Thanks, Suan! :-) > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard (and Suan), Thanks for what, exactly? This is not new. It comes up very frequently on DSG. Doesn't it always come down to the 'two types of jhana'? The two types are explained in detail in the Useful Posts file. For example, in post #83394, Sarah quotes from Atthasalini, 'Fourfold Jhana', PTS transl. Sarah: > Now here's the paragraph on the two kinds of jhana with the Pali below. (Quoted by Scott before): "Jhaana is twofold: that which (views or) examines closely the object and that which examines closely the characteristic marks [aaramma.nupanijjhaana~n ca lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m]. Of these two, 'object-scrutinising' jhaana examines closely those devices [for self-hypnosis]* as mental objects. Insight, the Path and Fruition are called 'characteristics-examining jhaana.' Of these three, insight is so called from its examining closely the characteristics of impermanence, etc. Because the work to be done by insight is accomplished through the Path, the Path is so called. And because Fruition examines closely the Truth of cessation, and possesses the characteristic of truth, it also is called 'characteristic-examining jhaana.' "Of these two kinds of jhaana, the 'object-examining' mode is here intended. Hence, from its examining the object and extinguishing the opposing Hindrances, jhaana is to be thus understood." Pali: "Duvidha.m jhaana.m aaramma.nupanijjhaana~n ca lakkha.nupanijjhaana~n ca. Tattha a.t.thasamaapatti-pa.thaviikasi.naadiaaramma.nam upanijjhaayatii ti aaramman.nupanijjhaanan ti sa"nkha"gataa vipassanaa. Maggaphalaani pana lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m naama. Tattha vipassanaa aniccadilakkha.nassa upanijjhaayanato lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m , vipassanaaya katakiccassa magge ijjhanato maggo lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m phala.m pana nirodha-sacca.m. Tattha lakkha.nam upanijjhaayatii ti lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m. Tesu imasmi.m atthe aaramma.nupanijjhaanam adhippeta.m. Kasmaa? Aaramma.nupanijjhaanato pacaniikajjhaapanato vaa jhaanan ti veditabba.m" Ken H > In a message dated 7/15/2009 10:51:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > suanluzaw@... writes: > > Hello Howard, Alberto, Alex, Phil, Nina, Chris F, Jon, Sarah > > How are you? > > How about the following edited translation of Dhammapada verse 372? > > 372. Natthi jhaanam apaassa, paaa natthi ajhaayato > yamhi jhaanaca paaa ca, sa ve nibbaanasantike. > > 372. There is no jhaana to the unwise, there is no paaa to the one > who has no jhaana. > One who has both jhaana and paaa is indeed near nibbaana. > > The above translation was done by checking the commentary of the verse > 372. > > Best wishes, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > #99248 From: "Dr. Han Tun" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:57 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (34) hantun1 Physical Phenomena (34) Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas): continuation. Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ As to bodysense, this is situated all over the body and inside it, except in the hairs or tips of the nails. It is one of the conditions for experiencing tactile object. The "Visuddhimagga" states, in the same section: "Body-consciousness arises due to body, tangible object, earth and attention." The "Atthasaalinii" (same section, 315) explains: "... Internal and external extension (solidity) is the cause of the tactile sense seizing the object. Thus it is not possible to know the hardness or softness of a bed well spread out or of fruits placed in the hand, without sitting down on the one or pressing the other. Hence internal and external extension is the cause in the tactile cognition of the tactile organ." Thus, when tactile cognition, bodyconsciousness, arises, there are actually elements impinging on elements. The impact of tactile object on the bodysense is more vigorous than the impact of the objects on the other senses. According to the "Paramattha Ma~njuusa", a commentary to the "Visuddhimagga" [Note 11], because of the violence of the impact on the bodysense, body-consciousness (kaayavi~n~naa.na) is accompanied either by pleasant feeling or by painful feeling, not by indifferent feeling, whereas the other sense-cognitions (seeing, hearing, etc.) are accompanied only by indifferent feeling. Through the bodysense are experienced: the earth element, appearing as hardness or softness; the fire element, appearing as heat or cold; the wind element, appearing as motion or pressure. When these characteristics appear they can be directly experienced wherever there is bodysense, thus also inside the body. [Note 11] See Visuddhimagga, XIV, footnote 56. ------------------------------ Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas) to be continued. with metta, Han #99249 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:33 pm Subject: Re: We see anicca: So why aren't we all Awakened? christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hello Nina, Sarah, Jon, Scott, KenH and all, > > > Repeatedly the Buddha says that those who see Anicca (impermanence) drop the fetters, (including wrong views) see the other noble truths, incline toward Nibbana and reach Arhatship. One even doesn't have to see-see these things, belief in them is sufficient to make one a faith follower (see okkanti-samyutta) who will die as a stream-enterer. > > But if we go around the street and ask people: does your body change, do the sights, smells, tastes, touches, feelings, intentions, thoughts, ideas, cognitions, etc change? 99.9999% of people will say yes. > > > If it is so. Why aren't all people enlightened? > > > =================== > CDB pg 1220 > Salayatanavagga 165 (10) Abandoning wrong views: > "How should one see. for wrong view to be abandoned? " > Buddha: "When one knows and sees eye as impermanent, wrong view is abandoned. When one knows and sees forms as impermanent... eye consciousness as impermanent... eye contact as impermanent... whatever feeling arises with mind contact as condition... as impermanent, wrong view is abandoned. It is when one knows and sees thus that wrong view is abandoned." > > AN 6.102 > 6 rewards of anicca-sanna > "In seeing six rewards, it's enough motivation for a monk to establish the perception of inconstancy with regard to all fabrications without exception. Which six? 'All fabrications will appear as unstable. My mind will not delight in any world. My mind will rise above every world. My heart will be inclined to Unbinding. My fetters1 will go to their abandoning. I'll be endowed with the foremost qualities of the contemplative life.' > > "In seeing these six rewards, it's enough for a monk to establish the perception of inconstancy with regard to all fabrications without exception." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.102.than.html > > Dukkha Sanna > in seeing six rewards, it's enough motivation for a monk to establish the perception of stress with regard to all fabrications without exception. Which six? 'The perception of disenchantment1 will be established within me with regard to all fabrications, like a murderer with a drawn sword. My mind will rise above every world. I'll become one who sees peace in Unbinding. My obsessions2 will go to their destruction. I'll be one who has completed his task. The Teacher will have been served with good will.' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.103.than.html > > Anatta-sanna > In seeing six rewards, it's enough motivation for a monk to establish the perception of not-self with regard to all phenomena without exception. Which six? 'I won't be fashioned in connection with any world. My I-making will be stopped. My my-making will be stopped. I'll be endowed with uncommon knowledge.1 I'll become one who rightly sees cause, along with causally-originated phenomena.' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.104.than.html > > > > > With metta, > > > Alex Hello Alex, There is a little more to it than just intellectually seeing some level of impermanence. Qualities of Ariya Persons http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/ariyas4.htm metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #99250 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Suan) - In a message dated 7/15/2009 9:23:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Thanks, Suan! :-) > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard (and Suan), Thanks for what, exactly? ---------------------------------------- For offering an alternative translation. Do you have a problem with my thanking him? If you do, the problem is yours. =========================== With metta, Howard Kindness Trumps Cleverness /When I was young I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people./ (Abraham Joshua Heschel) #99251 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:49 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 You're welcome, Scott. Any time. -Dan > Dear Dan, > > Regarding: > > D: "It sounds like you are trying to find a box to put me in so that you will better know what to do with me..." > > Scott: Thanks, Dan. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #99252 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. kenhowardau Hi Howard, > > Thanks for what, exactly? ------------------------------------- > For offering an alternative translation. Do you have a problem with my > thanking him? If you do, the problem is yours. -------------------------------------- No, I am always glad to see people contributing to DSG. Just stirring things up a little. :-) Ken H #99253 From: "sprlrt" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:14 pm Subject: Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. sprlrt Hi Suan, I've double checked, the pli says ajhyato, not ajhnato - Alberto > How about the following edited translation of Dhammapada verse 372? #99254 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:56 pm Subject: Venerable Gotama's final Nibbana reverendagga... Hi everone! I have a question. Can anyone tell me just why Venerable Gotama according to the Parinnibbana Sutta (D.N.#16) went to the 9th jhana but then went back down to the 4th jhana just before completing final nibbana? If you expire in the 4th jhana would you not acheve the coresponding REBIRTH? Thanks Everyone! Bhikkhu aggacitto #99255 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:58 pm Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 4, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, In your letter you gave examples of moments of awareness. You write that when walking you are aware of the feeling of pressing the ground. Is there not thinking of a concept of pressing the ground? Do you picture yourself as walking? That is a way of thinking. The object one thinks of at that moment is a concept or idea, not a reality. We may easily mislead ourselves and take thinking for awareness. When you touch hardness and you know that it is hard is there clear understanding of the true nature of the rpa which is hardness? There may still be something hard there which seems to stay. Does the ground seem to stay? Even when one does not name it ground or feet there can still be wrong understanding of reality. The rpa which is hardness can be experienced through the bodysense and it arises and falls away, it cannot stay. Hardness seems to stay so long as we have not understood the truth of impermanence. We cling to sati and we want to hold on to realities in order to know them. We should not expect there to be full understanding of nma and rpa which arise and fall away, but we can learn to be aware of one characteristic of reality at a time when it appears. When we remember that realities and also awareness cannot last we will be less inclined to try to be aware and to hold on to realities. When it is the right time for sati it arises and then it can be aware of any reality which appears. We cannot plan to be aware of such or such reality. You write that when eating you are aware of flavour. There is not only flavour, there is also the nma which experiences flavour, otherwise flavour could not appear. Do we know already the difference between nma and rpa? There can be mindfulness of only one reality at a time, but it seems that flavour and the experience of it appear together. When understanding develops one reality can be known at a time, but now there is still confusion. You say that you can be aware of the movement of the jaws when eating. Again, is there not thinking of the idea of my jaws instead of being aware of one nma or rpa at a time? When we become more familiar with the characteristics of nma and rpa we will be less inclined to name them or to select a particular object of awareness. ****** Nina. #99256 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:58 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. nilovg Dear Dan, Op 15-jul-2009, om 21:37 heeft Dan D. het volgende geschreven: > N: But nobody can force himself and like certain things he dislikes > on command, and immediately. > > --> Not immediately and not on command, but by hearing, > determination, and practice it can be done. -------- N: I am still thinking of your example, helping your son to enjoy his food. You must have had a lot of patience, and perhaps it took many years before he followed up your advice? I think that changing accumulations is a gradual process and takes a great deal of time. We read about aeons, but we cannot imagine how long that is. ***** Nina. #99257 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. kenhowardau Hi Alex, ---------- <. . .> A: > Why did the Buddha remember his experience as a child ratherthan experience of what would be much deeper aruppa Jhana of AlaraKalama & Uddakka Ramaputta? Not only that, but He studied underthem more recently than his experience as a child. ----------- I don't know; I made a guess in my previous post but I doubt it was right. ------------------- A: > Why did the prominent spiritual leader (Nigantha Nataputta) ofthat time thought that 2nd Jhana and higher was impossible? SN 41.8 And while Jhana DOES lead to awakening, why didn't Alara Kalama's & Uddakka Ramaputta's jhana did not? -------------------- I assume you are saying it must have been a different type of mundane jhana. But does the sutta actually say that? ---------------------------- A: > Samadhi -> seeing as it is. Samadhi is 4 Jhanas. ---------------------------- As previously discussed, we disagree on the adage "samadhi -> seeing". (Unless you are talking about the samma-samadhi from a past moment of seeing (insight) .) We also disagree that samadhi is the 4 jhanas. It might be better to say that the 4 jhanas are samadhi. But of course, there is always samadhi. --------------------------- A: > Why didn't Alara Kalama & Uddakka didn't see things as they are? ---------------------------- Because they hadn't been taught satipatthana. ----------------- KH: > >And so the significance of this sutta does not lie in > the nature of the jhana as such. Its significance lies in fact >that a > Tathagatha discovers his path to enlightenment entirely by his *own* > efforts. > > Just a suggestion. A: > But the SN2.7 & AN9.42 says that Buddha awoken to Jhana. ------------------ I don't know what 'awakening to jhana' could mean. But I agree, the way in which Buddhas arise in the world does involve jhana. (Not so with most other arahants.) Ken H #99258 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q: Can one exit samsara faster nilovg Dear Alex, Op 15-jul-2009, om 23:45 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Note which comes first and which supports which. Ultimately it is > panna that liberates, but it has to be supported by samadhi. ------ N: Certainly, by right concentration of the eightfold Path that arises together with it, and also by the other Path factors. As understanding develops. also concentration that focusses on one nama or rupa at a time develops. ------- Nina. #99259 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:12 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: We see anicca: So why aren't we all Awakened? nilovg Dear Christine, nice to hear from you. Op 16-jul-2009, om 5:33 heeft Christine Forsyth het volgende geschreven: > But if we go around the street and ask people: does your body > change, do the sights, smells, tastes, touches, feelings, > intentions, thoughts, ideas, cognitions, etc change? 99.9999% of > people will say yes. > > > > > > If it is so. Why aren't all people enlightened? ------- N: Because they are merely thinking of change and impermanence. They do not realize the momentary arising and falling away of nama and rupa, which is the first stage of mahaa-vipassanaa. If this stage is reached also anattaa becomes clearer. When the reality that appears is gone immediately what is there to own? What is there to control? I always appreciate very much the suttas you quote. They show the close connection of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. Nina. #99261 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:35 am Subject: Not Posted: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Mike: Hindrances and jhaana.] sarahprocter... Dear Howard, Back to the neglected #98417 on the Anupada Sutta:-) Apologies for long quotes at the beginning for context, given the time lapse: >>Sarah: (Formless-Sphere Moral Consciousness - 4) > > (1) Moral Jhaana consciousness dwelling on the "Infinity of Space", > > (2) Moral Jhaana consciousness dwelling on the "Infinity of Consciousness", > [S: the object is the first aruupa jhaana citta] > > (3) Moral Jhaana consciousness dwelling on "Nothingness", > > (4) Moral Jhaana consciousness wherein "Perception neither is nor is not". > [S: the object is the third arupa jhaana citta] > > These are the four types of aruupa-jhaana Moral consciousness." > > S: In other words, the objects of these (the highest jhaana cittas)have > their own specific objects. There is no 'investigation of dhammas' in them > and they are only 'portals' or 'bases' or proximate conditions for path > consciousness if they are directly understood as impermanent, conditioned > dhammas after they've fallen away. This is in just the same way any other naama > or ruupa can be the proximate condition or 'portal' for path consciousness > if it is directly understood as an object of satipa.t.thaana just prior to > enlightenment. Whether it be lobha, dosa, jhaana citta or visible object - > any dhamma at any time can be the 'portal' for enlightenment if the > conditions are in place. > ================================ >Howard: As one example, Sarah, in the Anupada Sutta, please compare what > occurs within the 7th jhana with what occurs within the 8th: > > __________________ > 16] "And the states in the base of "Nothingness" - the perception of the > base of "Nothingness" and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, > perception, volition and consciousness, the enthusiasm, decision, energy, > mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one > by one as they occurred; know to him those states arose, known they were > present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: "So indeed, these states > not having been, come into to being; having been, they vanish." Regarding > these states he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, > free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: "There is an > escape beyond this", and with the cultivation of that attainment, he > confirmed that there is. ..... S: These are the factors accompanying the 7th jhana which has voidness as its object. The reviewing consciousness cittas which immediately succeed the jhana cittas 'review' and know the cittas, their object and the mental states accompanying them, just as the reviewing consciousness cittas immediately succeeding the lokuttara cittas (in the processes of enlightenment)experience those cittas, cetasikas and object (nibbana). From the Guide in CMA, ch 1 "The base of nothingness (aaki~nca~n~naayatana): the third immaterial attainment has as its object the present non-existence, voidness, or secluded aspect of the consciousness pertaining to the base of infinite space. By giving attention to the absence of that consciousness, the third immaterial absorption arises taking as its object the concept of non-existence or nothingness (nattthibhaava-pa~n~natti) in respect the the first immaterial consciousness." S: There is no other object of this jhana citta itself. The cetasikas (mental factors) listed in the sutta are factors accompanying the citta. In the Bodhi/Nanamoli notes to this sutta, it explains under the first jhana: "The first five states in the list are the jhaana factors proper of the first jhaana; the following states are additional components each performing their individual functions within the jhaana. This minute analysis of mental states into their components anticipates the methodology of the Abhidhamma, and it is thus no coincidence that the name of Saariputta is so closely linked with the emergence of the Abhidhamma literature." S: As Connie has pointed out, each jhana citta is accompanied by many mental factors, including all those which arise with every kind of sobhana (beautiful)consciousness. It is the jhana factors (jhaananga)(such as the five in the case of the first jhana) that distinguish one jhana from the next in terms of increasing refinement of the absorption as the grosser jhana factors are eliminated. .... > Howard: 17] "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of "Nothingness" > Sariputta entered upon and abided in the base of neither perception nor > non-perception. > 18] "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he > contemplated the states that had passed, ceased and changed, thus: "So indeed, these > states, not having been, come into being; having been they vanished. > Regarding those states, he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, > detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: "There is > an escape beyond this," and with the cultivation of that attainment, he > confirmed that there is. > ----------------------------------- > Within the 7th, Sariputta was able to define various features "one by one > AS THEY OCCURRED [emphasis mine]; .... S: A note in the Bodhi/Nanamoli translation explains this difference in wording when it comes to the 8th jhana: "This indirect introspective method must be used to contemplate the fourth immaterial attainment because this attainment, being extremely subtle, does not enter into the direct range of investigation for disciples. Only fully enlightened Buddhas are able to contemplate it directly." S: This is interesting as it seems to even include Sariputta. In the case of the other jhana cittas and factors, they can be known 'as present objects' by the immediately succeeding cittas (for these disciples), just as seeing or visible object can be known 'as present objects' by succeeding mind-door cittas in the development of satipatthana. Thanks for pointing out the wording, Howard. I'm glad I took my time to check the texts:). Metta, Sarah ======= #99262 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Be here now sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Mike), On circumnambulating stupas and the like, #98695: --- On Thu, 25/6/09, Scott wrote: >>Sarah: "Yes, with any 'conventional activities', it all comes down to the citta and the view at the time and I'm sure these are as mixed for most of us whilst circumnambulating stupas as at other times. There are likely, of course, to be many opportunities for reflection on the Triple Gem, opportunities for sati, pa~n~naa and saddhaa, opportunities for consideration for and appreciation of others good deeds, but also the opposite as you suggest. It always comes back to the citta and views at the time." .... >Scott: I suppose it will be important to differentiate between a suggestion to engage in conventional activities and that thing that modern 'buddhists' call 'practice' today. And it probably depends on many factors that someone might think of the admonishments quoted in the textual references as actual instructions designed to lead in a linear fashion to some sort of attainment. But isn't this how self enters in? And what's wrong with having a theoretical knowledge that knows that there never is self and finding that this leads to thinking about these sort of 'instructions' differently? .... Sarah: Yes, when there's a firm "theoretical knowledge that knows that there never is self....", 'instructions' are understood differently and there is confidence that sati can arise anytime at all, even when it might seem one is following some ritual or other. Again, back to the citta:-). ..... >>Sarah: "...16. "There are four places, Ananda, that a pious person should visit and look upon with feelings of reverence... ... >Scott: I think that being in these places *can* be condition for the dhammaa which make up sa.mvega, and it seems that the presence of sadhaa is condition for the arising of the 'sa.mvega complex'. ... Sarah: Yes, sadhaa with pa~n~naa of course. ... Scott:> I'd like to learn more of the sense in which 'should' is to be understood in this context ('...should visit...'). .... Sarah: Nina gave a note on the Pali. For me, it's like "if one has an opportunity to reflect on dhamma and pay respect, for the wise it will be a condition for right understanding to develop." This doesn't mean "will" or "should" do anything. It's like opening a Tipitaka text or going to see the Buddha - helpful conditions for many, but the opposite for some... In any case, as Nina stressed, it comes back to the dhammas at this moment and what is conditioned now. No need to speculate about what cittas might arise in what situations - we never know in advance. ... >Also, it seems that the fortunate birth is not predicated on having died in mid-stuupa circumambulation, but on the nature of the developed dhammaa at the time of death. .... S: Yes, it always depends on the cittas before death. For those with great confidence in the Triple Gem, there are likely to be conditions for samvega at such times, that's all, I think.... .... >Going to these places, I imagine, would have me considering the Dhamma. I'm considering it right now, though. What's the difference, I wonder? .... S: Again it depends on the accumulations and the cittas at the time.... No rules. Metta, Sarah ======== #99263 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:42 am Subject: Re: Venerable Gotama's final Nibbana gazita2002 hallo Bhante, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "reverendaggacitto" wrote: > > Hi everone! > I have a question. Can anyone tell me just why Venerable Gotama > according to the Parinnibbana Sutta (D.N.#16) went to the 9th jhana > but then went back down to the 4th jhana just before completing final nibbana? If you expire in the 4th jhana would you not acheve the coresponding REBIRTH? only if the conditions for rebirth have not yet been eradicated. In the case of the Buddha there are no conditions remaining for there to be any more births. Conditions for the making of kamma have been eliminated. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #99264 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:27 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (24-25) scottduncan2 Dear Friends, Continuing on [previous: #98884 Fours (22-23) (cy: #99021, #99135]: CSCD < Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:16 am Subject: Re: Be here now scottduncan2 Dear Sarah (and Mike), Regarding: Sarah: "Yes, when there's a firm 'theoretical knowledge that knows that there never is self....', 'instructions' are understood differently and there is confidence that sati can arise anytime at all, even when it might seem one is following some ritual or other. Again, back to the citta...Yes, sadhaa with pa~n~naa of course." Scott: I guess that, on the one hand, there is sadhaa with pa~n~naa (should this arise), and on the other hand there would be the thoughts which are always running, let's say subsequent to this moment of sadhaa with pa~n~naa. Do you think that such subsequent 'thoughts' - that is the actual inner monologue experienced as words - are influenced by moments such as suggested above? If so, how do you see this influence to be? I was reading the Gha.tiikaara Sutta, MN 81 last night. Aananda and the Buddha were wandering around when 'the Blessed One smiled.' Aananda questioned the Buddha about the smile ('Tathaagatas do not smile for no reason.') It turns out that they had wandered to a spot where a past Buddha (Kassapa) had once had a monastery, and where the Buddha himself, in that past life, had been the brahmin student Jotipaala. Aananda spread his cloak, inviting the Buddha to sit, so the place 'will have been used by two Accomplished Ones, Fully Enlightened Ones.' The Buddha went on to tell the story that went with the location. There wasn't much fanfare about this happenstance visit to a 'sacred site.' Aananda did make a point of stopping, and not ritualistically. I like that the Buddha smiled, and that Aananda set up a makeshift seat out of consideration for two Accomplished Ones. Sarah: "Nina gave a note on the Pali. For me, it's like 'if one has an opportunity to reflect on dhamma and pay respect, for the wise it will be a condition for right understanding to develop.' This doesn't mean 'will' or 'should' do anything. It's like opening a Tipitaka text or going to see the Buddha - helpful conditions for many, but the opposite for some...In any case, as Nina stressed, it comes back to the dhammas at this moment and what is conditioned now. No need to speculate about what cittas might arise in what situations - we never know in advance." Scott: True. And, for the ordinary sort, it is hard to know afterward also. I'm not sure what sort of dhammaa would instigate a wish to go visit some of the ancient historical sites related to the Buddha's life, or to a stuupa - could be anything. I happen to be of the opinion that going with the aim of making something happen will not make something happen, but arriving, something might happen anyway, or not, as the case may be. Sincerely, Scott. #99266 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/16/2009 1:05:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, > > Thanks for what, exactly? ------------------------------------- > For offering an alternative translation. Do you have a problem with my > thanking him? If you do, the problem is yours. -------------------------------------- No, I am always glad to see people contributing to DSG. Just stirring things up a little. :-) ------------------------------------------ ;-)) There's an old Yiddish expression my mother used to use a lot, that sounded like "kochleffl," with the "ch" pronounced as in the German "ach", that literally means "pot stirrer," and figuratively refers to someone who stirs things up (often playfully but also devilishly) to cause some trouble! ;-)) ----------------------------------------- Ken H ============================= With metta to an old kochleffl ;-)), Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99267 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:16 am Subject: Re: Not Posted: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Mike: Hindrances and jhaana.] upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - Thank you for getting back to me. As regards your various comments, they don't seem to be borne out by the sutta itself, and I find the sutta to be clear. In a message dated 7/16/2009 3:30:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dsgmods@... writes: Dear Howard, Back to the neglected #98417 on the Anupada Sutta:-) ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99268 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Scott), --- On Thu, 25/6/09, kenhowardau wrote: >Whichever way we look at them, I would still say they were to be understood in terms of satipatthana. >The Buddha said somewhere (sorry, no ref.) that anyone who saw conditioned dhammas saw him. Anyone who saw only his physical presence ("a mere bag of bones") didn't see him at all. Wouldn't the same apply to the vinaya? Anyone who saw just conventional activities didn't see the real rules at all? .... S: You're thinking of: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.087x.wlsh.html "Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma." ------------ K:> I don't know much about the vinaya. However, I seem to remember someone at DSG explaining the whole reason for having rules. It was that monks who were not arahants could nevertheless behave in the manner of arahants. In that way they were able, to a degree, to preserve the Dhamma for future generations. Generations like ours don't have real arahants to learn from. But, thanks to the sangha, we can hear the written/memorised words of arahants, and we can see how arahants behaved. (I could have remembered that wrongly. I might even have imagined it.) .... S: Yes, I think that the Sangha (and the rules to be followed) are for those who aspire to live like arahats, seeing harm in the smallest faults. ..... >K:Imagine, Scott, that you were in the presence of the Buddha. Wouldn't you hear every word he spoke in terms of satipatthana? Even if he was talking about cleaning teeth or sweeping leaves (etc), why would you waste a single moment by hearing his words in the same way you would hear them from anyone else? Instead of rejoicing in the profundity of anatta (no teeth, no teeth cleaner: no leaves, no leaf sweeper)! I feel sure you would still clean your teeth and sweep the leaves. .... S: :) Of course, how the words were heard would depend on the conditions at that very moment - even for Sariputta there wouldn't be satipatthana or right understanding of realities when hearing each word, but you make a good point as usual. .... K:> OK, I will try not to be opinionated. .... S: :-)) ... K:> I still think that every word the Buddha spoke should be understood in terms of satipatthana, but I can see that there are good arguments on your side too. ... S: One thing for sure - there are only dhammas - namas and rupas. When the Buddha spoken and his (trained) disciples listened, there was never any doubt about this. There was also no doubt for them that there was only path ever being taught - that of satipatthana leading to full enlightenment. Metta, Sarah ======= #99269 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Alex wrote: >The Buddha has said: "If, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain covetous, with thoughts of ill will, overcome by sloth & drowsiness, restless, uncertain, angry, with soiled thoughts, with my body aroused, lazy, or unconcentrated, ' then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an10/an10. 051.than. html#turban" "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an04/an04. 005.than. html These 2 quotes clearly show that at least at some points, effort MUST BE DONE in an active (and dare I say, conventional) sense. Please comment, ... S: You often say that you accept and understand dhammas as anatta, so what exactly do you understand this "effort (that)MUST BE DONE in an active (and dare I say, conventional) sense" to be? How do you understand it to come about exactly? If you start using vague terms like 'meditation' in your answer, please spell out exactly what you are referring to in terms of dhammas that are anatta. Metta, Sarah ======= #99270 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:42 am Subject: Re: Not Posted: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Mike: Hindrances and jhaana.] sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Thu, 16/7/09, upasaka@... wrote: >Thank you for getting back to me. As regards your various comments, they don't seem to be borne out by the sutta itself, and I find the sutta to be clear. .... S: I went into quite some detail to explain that the comments are borne out by the sutta as I read it and as it would be understood by the commentaries and Abhidhamma. In other words, it's perfectly consistent with detailed texts such as the Patisambhidamagga, attributed to Sariputta and with the rest of the Tipitaka. If you understand the objects of jhana cittas to be various mental factors (all at the same time?), do you also understand the objects of lokuttara cittas to be the eightfold path pactors? Where do the kasinas and other objects of jhana cittas, such as 'nothingness' in the example we discussed, or nibbana then come into the picture? I think this (Anupada) sutta is a good example of how an understanding of Abhidhamma is essential for reading a sutta, but we can happily agree to disagree on this:-). I enjoyed the book-opening anyway, thanks. Metta, Sarah ======= #99271 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Thx for the good questions. --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Alex wrote: >Please explain to me why can't antarabhava & anatta co-exist? I see no problem with anatta & Antarabhava, and it is not a refutation of anicca-dukkha- anatta.. >Why can't the death-consciousness that ceases in this life condition the rebirth-consciousne ss of GANDHABBA (or whatever it is properly called) that is in intermediate existence and the death moment of Gandhabba condition the arising citta of a new existence? There is no reason why teaching of cittas cannot be fit with "intermediate" existence. .... S: So are you saying that the Gandhabba is a series of citta arising between one life and another life? If so why isn't it another life? There are four planes (bhuumi) of consciousness - the sense sphere, the fine-material sphere, the immaterial sphere and the supramundane. Which sphere do the Gandhabba cittas belong to? In otherwords, if it's another sense plane of cittas (and after all, spheres of consciousness is just a category for classifying types of cittas which predominate in a particular plane), why not just refer to twelve sensuous realms instead of eleven? [The eleven consist of the four woeful planes, the human plane and the six sensuous heavenly planes]. Another way of referring to consciousness is according to the 4 kinds of nature (jaati). So every kind of consciousness that arises is either kusala (wholesome), akusala (unwholesome), vipaka (result) or kiriya (functional). Vipaka and kiriya cittas are indeterminate (abyaakata), in that they cannot be determined in terms of kusala or akusala. So what are the Gandhabba cittas? They must have a jaati. If the Gandhabba is anything other than cittas in a realm or cittas of a particular jaati/jaatis, then it seems that SOMETHING or atta is being introduced. As Nina said, by continguity condition, one citta always follows another.... Metta, Sarah ====== #99272 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:03 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Venerable Gotama's final Nibbana nilovg Reverend Aggacitto, Op 16-jul-2009, om 8:56 heeft reverendaggacitto het volgende geschreven: > I have a question. Can anyone tell me just why Venerable Gotama > according to the Parinnibbana Sutta (D.N.#16) went to the 9th jhana > but then went back down to the 4th jhana just before completing > final nibbana? If you expire in the 4th jhana would you not acheve > the coresponding REBIRTH? ------- N I consulted the commentary as translated by Yangg-Gyu An, "The Buddha's Last Days", p. 184, : Thus, the Buddha did not attain parinibbaana after the cessation of perception and feeling, since this state is not followed by bhavangacitta but, in the case of the anaagaami by the phalacitta of the anaagaami and in the case of the arahat by the phalacitta of the arahat (see Buddhist dictionary under nirodha). Therefore, the Buddha attained parinibbaana after the fourth ruupajhaana, which is followed by bhavangacitta. The order of cittas is fixed, it is citta niyama. Not even a Buddha can change the fixed order of dhamma, dhamma niyama. This helps us to understand more clearly that all phenomena that roll on are anattaa. Nobody can change the order of their arising. Concluding with a text which, I think, you know, but Which I repeat for others, quoted from Acharn Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas: Respectfully, ***** Nina. #99273 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:29 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Dan (and Scott) Hope you don't mind me butting in here ;-)) (99190) > =============== > Basically, Scott, my main point is that there is a sharp, clear distinction between intellectual, discursive understanding and direct understanding of the world "as it is." It's easy to get hung up on models, words, definitions and forget about the underlying realities. Telling stories is so addicting that we pretend that our story is something more, that the story itself is the Truth. At their best, stories point out some aspect of reality in a way that conduces to deeper understanding. But even a "good story" is a hindrance when it is a persistent object of clinging and aversion. At that point, a new story or a new twist on the old story can help. > =============== I gather you have a different definition of "intellectual understanding" that the one that is sometimes used here. You equate it with "models, words, definitions, telling stories", in contradistinction to direct understanding which is understanding of the world as it is. To my understanding, both intellectual understanding ("pariyatti") and direct understanding ("patipatti") are understanding of or about dhammas, but while direct understanding has a dhamma as its object, intellectual understanding does not (it has an idea about a dhamma as its object). Intellectual understanding is that which is necessary to be understood intellectually in order for direct understanding to be able to arise. For example, someone who has not heard the teachings in this lifetime cannot develop the awareness/insight spoken of by the Buddha. What you describe as models, telling stories would not be regarded as intellectual understanding in the sense I've just described, because it does not relate to dhammas. Hoping this clarifies a possible misunderstanding. > =============== > Dhammas are not uncontrollable--manosettha, manomaya. There is no Self that controls them, and the conventional notions of "effort" and "directing" aren't the way to exercise control. Buddha exercised supreme control over dhammas (e.g., entering and exiting the eight jhanas and cessation at will). Mara can never overpower one...who is controlled in his senses (Dhp 1:8). > =============== On the subject of control, I think it depends on whether one is talking in the conventional or in the absolute sense. There are plenty of references in the suttas to being controlled in one's senses, being able to do things as easily as a strong man stretching out his arm, etc. These are references to control in the conventional sense. But nobody can have such control forever. Sooner or later there comes sickness, ageing, the expiration of supporting kamma (in the case of supernatural powers) or death, and the degree of control is lost. When it comes to dhammas (rather than to conventional references), the emphasis of the suttas is on their conditioned nature and their characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. It's difficult to see how the notion of "control" can be squared with these features and attributes. Jon #99274 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:33 am Subject: Re: Not Posted: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Mike: Hindrances and jhaana.] upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 7/16/2009 9:42:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, --- On Thu, 16/7/09, upasaka@... wrote: >Thank you for getting back to me. As regards your various comments, they don't seem to be borne out by the sutta itself, and I find the sutta to be clear. .... S: I went into quite some detail to explain that the comments are borne out by the sutta as I read it and as it would be understood by the commentaries and Abhidhamma. In other words, it's perfectly consistent with detailed texts such as the Patisambhidamagga, attributed to Sariputta and with the rest of the Tipitaka. If you understand the objects of jhana cittas to be various mental factors (all at the same time?), do you also understand the objects of lokuttara cittas to be the eightfold path pactors? Where do the kasinas and other objects of jhana cittas, such as 'nothingness' in the example we discussed, or nibbana then come into the picture? --------------------------------------------- Your view of jhana as a momentaristic phenomenon is, IMO, skewing your take on this. There is no mention in the sutta of reviewing. The factors are observed one-by-one as they occur. Your perspective is that while in the 5th jhana, nothing but infinite space is observed. The sutta doesn't bear that out. There, the following is said (Ven T's translation): "Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of the infinitude of space — the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers." or (Ven Bodhi's translation) "And the states in the base of Infinite Space - the perception of the base of Infinite Space and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition and consciousness; the enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him they arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish’. Regarding those states, he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers." ------------------------------------------------ I think this (Anupada) sutta is a good example of how an understanding of Abhidhamma is essential for reading a sutta, but we can happily agree to disagree on this:-). -------------------------------------------------- I would turn to other than the sutta itself only when the sutta content is unclear. ---------------------------------------------------- I enjoyed the book-opening anyway, thanks. -------------------------------------------------- ;-) --------------------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99275 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:42 am Subject: Re: Supramundane Jhaana jonoabb Hi Alex (99207) > Questions: > 1)Siddhartha as a child sitting under the tree in Jhana. Was it mundane or supramandane path moment Jhana? MN36 > > It was called "The Path to Enlightment". MN36. > =============== Every Buddha achieves enlightenment with jhana as basis. So for the Bodhisatta, the attainment of jhana (which he had eschewed because of the associated pleasant feeling) was the way to go. > =============== > 3) Even in MahaSatipatthana sutta (which some over enthusiastic mistranslated as the only way in contradiction to the fact that Jhana as a path was taught 10x as often, even in that Nikaya) the phrase having removed covetenous & displeasure for the world. "vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam" which requires hindrances to be droped PRIOR to engaging in Satipatthana. Only when one has attained Jhana (MN68) do the unwholesome qualities not invade the mind and remain disabled for while - during the time where wisdom can occur. > =============== There is no specific textual support for assuming that reference to "having removed covetousness & displeasure for the world (vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam)" is a reference to the attainment of jhana. To my understanding, these are references to momentary overcoming of kilesas (something that occurs at any moment of kusala). > =============== > "And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html > > IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to achieve any insight when the hindrances are present. > =============== Again, this has to be understood as referring to the non-arising of the hindrances. This does not depend on jhana. Every moment of kusala is a moment of the non-arising (abandoning) of the hindrances. Jon #99276 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:47 am Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Alex (99242) > Did you read AN 5.51? When there is a moment of lust it is already due to lapsed mindfulness in that moment. > =============== AN 5.51 is indeed about the monk who is developing both samatha/jhana and vipassana. But it does not lay down any general rule for everyone about jhana as a prerequisite for the development of awareness/insight. > =============== > Do you agree that one citta cannot have (wholesome) sati, panna & unwholesome thing present? > =============== Yes, no argument from me on that. > =============== > As I've said above, kusala cannot simulteneously coexist with akusala at the same citta. It is either/or. The panna CAN take *previous* mind moments for study. > =============== Yes, I would presume this is the scenario being referred to in the Satipatthana Sutta: panna taking the immediately prior mental state as its object. > =============== > In any case, it is instruction of Satipatthana to REMOVE hindrances. AN 5.51 does state that wisdom is IMPOSSIBLE when there are hindrances. Wisdom can take previous akusala states for examination, though. > =============== The reference in AN 5.51 is a reference to hindrances manifesting, not to hindrances as accumulated tendencies but latent. > =============== > > Yes, but this is a sutta about what makes a contemplative a > > (perfect) contemplative: > > Isn't it wholesome to be perfect contemplative? Or at least to do your best being one? > =============== What we are discussing is the conditions for the development of awareness/insight at any level (no matter how weak), not the conditions for being the perfect contemplative. Jon #99277 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:53 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. onco111 Hi Nina, Yes, we periodically had these talks for several months or a year before the switch flipped. Once he made the determination, the change was very rapid. Regarding the aeons, I never understood the relevancy of discussing it. Our memory extends back only a few years or decades--not to times before we were born. We have no idea how many aeons we've been accumulating tendencies for one thing or another. -Dan > N: I am still thinking of your example, helping your son to enjoy his > food. You must have had a lot of patience, and perhaps it took many > years before he followed up your advice? > I think that changing accumulations is a gradual process and takes a > great deal of time. We read about aeons, but we cannot imagine how > long that is. > #99278 From: "nichiconn" Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:17 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. nichiconn Hi Dan, > > Regarding the aeons, I never understood the relevancy of discussing it. Our memory extends back only a few years or decades--not to times before we were born. We have no idea how many aeons we've been accumulating tendencies for one thing or another. > Our memories, maybe. A couple quotes that might be of some interest follow. peace, connie Intro to Net of Views: The four varieties of eternalism derive from their mode of genesis. Three arise from retrocognitive experience of past lives and one from reasoning. The three cases based on recollection of past lives stem from a definite and real spiritual experience. A yogi, by means of effort and contemplative devotion, attains to a degree of mental concentration (samaadhi) of sufficient power to serve as the foundation for the abhi~n~naa or direct knowledge of recalling past lives. Depending upon the penetrative power of his intellect whether dull, medium, or keen he can recall his past lives numbering up to a hundred thousand, throughout a period of up to ten aeons of world contraction and expansion, and throughout a period of up to forty such aeons. This gives the three cases. He then assumes an eternal self persisting through these periods. The rationalists, given as singlefold in the sutta, divide into four secondary types according to the commentary. The first reasons from hearsay or tradition; having heard stories of beings who lived through a number of lives, he concludes that there must be an eternal self. The second remembers a small number of past births, perhaps through memories which arise spontaneously without a foundation of meditative experience, and then assumes a self as their basis. The third takes his present fortunes or gains (laabha) to be the result of good kamma in the past, and assumes a pre-existent self to perform the kamma and enjoy the results; the third category might also include yogis who, without actually recalling past lives, seize upon their blissful meditative experiences as the disclosures of an eternally existent self. And the fourth is the pure rationalist, who posits an eternal self through bare reason in order to uphold the validity of the law of kammic retribution; that the law of kamma can operate in the absence of such a self is to the theorist incomprehensible. CMA IV, Guide to 12 (2): An independent mind-door process occurs when any of the six objects enters the range of cognition entirely on its own, not as a consequence of an immediately preceding sense-door process. The question may be raised how an object can enter the range of the mind door independently of a proximate sensory impingement. Ledi Sayadaw cites various sources: through what was directly preceived earlier, or by inference from what was directly preceived; through what was learnt by oral report, or by inference from what was learnt by oral report; on account of belief, opinion, reasoning, or reflective acceptance of a view, by the power of kamma, psychic power, disturbance of the bodily humours, the influence of a deity, comprehension, realization, etc. He explains that if one has clearly experienced an object even once, at a later time - even after a hundred years or in a future life - dependent on that object a condition may be set for the vibration of the bhavanga. The mind that has been nurtured on such an imput of prior experiences is extremely susceptible to their influence. When it encounters any sense object, that object may trigger off in a single moment mental waves extending to manythousands of objects previously encountered. #99279 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:16 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. nilovg Dear Dan, Op 16-jul-2009, om 17:53 heeft Dan D. het volgende geschreven: > Regarding the aeons, I never understood the relevancy of discussing > it. Our memory extends back only a few years or decades--not to > times before we were born. We have no idea how many aeons we've > been accumulating tendencies for one thing or another. ------- N: Sure, ignorance and clinging we have accumulated for so long, aeons just indicate: anextremely long time. I think aeons in the future remind us that ignorance and clinging cannot be eradicated quickly. It can remind us to be patient. Your example of your son illustrates that, as I said, accumulations can be changed, also for the good. Some people believe that conditionality and the truth of non-self makes us apathic, or fatalistic. Considering such examples can cure one of fatalism. ------- Nina. #99280 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:19 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hi Jon, It's great to hear from you! You raise some questions I haven't thought about for awhile. In particular, I'm still struggling with the meaning of "pariyatti." You say, "intellectual understanding"; Nyanatiloka says [Buddhist Dictionary], "learning the wording of the doctrine"; PTS says, "adequacy, accomplishment, sufficiency, capability, competency...", the Vism [p. 95 PTS] sense is more along the lines of memorization of texts. I see a great deal of affinity among the PTS, Vism, and Nyanatiloka usages, but they seem quite different from your "intellectual understanding." "Intellectual understanding" brings to mind a thinking about dhammas and trying to make rational sense of the texts. This would be a reasonable approximation to "learning the doctrine", but Nyanatiloka consciously and carefully avoids that formulation with "learning the WORDING OF the doctrine." There's a critical difference. Memorization does not require very much intellectual understanding, but it plays an important role in learning Dhamma. With a rudimentary understanding of the words and a quick and ready formulation of how they fit together, the "wording of" Dhamma student will be better prepared to observe dhammas as they arise and pass away than will the "intellectual understanding" Dhamma student who has become so accustomed to conceptualizing dhammas and theorizing about them that it becomes more difficult to see beyond the manufactured conceptual realities to catch a glimpse of the real realities. Much more important than thinking about dhammas is observing them live without preconceived notions of what they look like. J: "Intellectual understanding is that which is necessary to be understood intellectually in order for direct understanding to be able to arise. For example, someone who has not heard the teachings in this lifetime cannot develop the awareness/insight spoken of by the Buddha." --> I don't like that definition, Jon. It doesn't mesh with the normal connotations of "intellectual understanding," and it unduly prejudices "pariyatti" to intellectualization and theorizing as a practice rather than learning of cues for observation. J: What you describe as models, telling stories would not be regarded as intellectual understanding in the sense I've just described... --> That's right. What I describe as models and telling stories is pariyatti or pointing to dhammas in a way that makes them easier to see. By contrast, "intellectual understanding" is theorizing and conceptualizing dhammas in a way that makes them harder to see. Some examples of "models": paticca samuppada, anicca/anatta/dukkha, 4NT, 10 fetters, 10 paramis, etc. These are all descriptions of reality that are used to alert the mind to what may be seen and MUST be seen to effect liberation. ... J: When it comes to dhammas (rather than to conventional references), the emphasis of the suttas is on their conditioned nature and their characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. It's difficult to see how the notion of "control" can be squared with these features and attributes. --> It may not be as hard to "see" in practice as it is to justify it intellectually starting from a conceptualization of "anatta = no control." For example, after hearing Dhamma a child with determination and practice can change his reaction to foods. Or an accomplished meditator can attain mastery of jhanas. Or an arahat exercises such control over dhammas that akusala never arises. It's not that there is "no control" but that the control is different from the conventional notion of "control", requires a lot of practice to learn, and it is limited. Notably, as discussed in Sammohavinodani: "there is no exercise of power in these three instances, [namely,] 'this being arisen, let it not reach presence; having reached presence, let it not grow old; having grown old, let it not break up'" (Dispeller...p. 57); in other words, no matter how much you'd might object, anicca happens. -Dan #99281 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:22 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. onco111 Hi Nina, Hmmm... N: ...I think aeons in the future remind us that ignorance and clinging cannot be eradicated quickly. --> Who ever said anything about aeons in the future? All I can recall from the scriptures is that Buddha practiced for aeons before reaching full enlightenment. -Dan #99282 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:38 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. onco111 Hi Connie, You say, "Our memories, maybe." Not mine! -Dan #99283 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:14 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: We see anicca: So why aren't we all Awakened? truth_aerator Hi Nina, Christine and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Christine, > nice to hear from you. > Op 16-jul-2009, om 5:33 heeft Christine Forsyth het volgende geschreven: > > > But if we go around the street and ask people: does your body > > change, do the sights, smells, tastes, touches, feelings, > > intentions, thoughts, ideas, cognitions, etc change? 99.9999% of > > people will say yes. > > > > > > > > > If it is so. Why aren't all people enlightened? > ------- > N: Because they are merely thinking of change and impermanence. They > do not realize the momentary arising and falling away of nama and > rupa, which is the first stage of mahaa-vipassanaa. And how exactly does one one do that? How exactly does one "see" momentary arising & falling of nama & rupa? It seems that for a lot of people talk about anicca, dukkha, anatta, paramattha is just another conceptual thing. Sure it may be theoretically correct, but what is pragmatic result? How is this supposed to be used so that it doesn't remain at the level of "just another concepts [no matter how right they are]" With metta, Alex #99284 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. truth_aerator Hi Ken and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > ---------- > <. . .> > A: > Why did the Buddha remember his experience as a child ratherthan > experience of what would be much deeper aruppa Jhana of AlaraKalama & > Uddakka Ramaputta? Not only that, but He studied underthem more recently > than his experience as a child. > ----------- > > I don't know; I made a guess in my previous post but I doubt it was > right. > > ------------------- > A: > Why did the prominent spiritual leader (Nigantha Nataputta) ofthat > time thought that 2nd Jhana and higher was impossible? SN 41.8 > > And while Jhana DOES lead to awakening, why didn't Alara Kalama's & > Uddakka Ramaputta's jhana did not? > -------------------- > > I assume you are saying it must have been a different type of mundane > jhana. But does the sutta actually say that? > > ---------------------------- > A: > Samadhi -> seeing as it is. > Samadhi is 4 Jhanas. > ---------------------------- > > As previously discussed, we disagree on the adage "samadhi -> seeing". > (Unless you are talking about the samma-samadhi from a past moment of > seeing (insight) .) > > We also disagree that samadhi is the 4 jhanas. It might be better to say > that the 4 jhanas are samadhi. But of course, there is always samadhi. > > --------------------------- > A: > Why didn't Alara Kalama & Uddakka didn't see things as they are? > ---------------------------- > > Because they hadn't been taught satipatthana. > > ----------------- > KH: > >And so the significance of this sutta does not lie in > > the nature of the jhana as such. Its significance lies in fact >that a > > Tathagatha discovers his path to enlightenment entirely by his *own* > > efforts. > > > > Just a suggestion. > > > A: > But the SN2.7 & AN9.42 says that Buddha awoken to Jhana. > ------------------ > > I don't know what 'awakening to jhana' could mean. But I agree, the way > in which Buddhas arise in the world does involve jhana. (Not so with > most other arahants.) > > Ken H > "Base of Nothingness" as taught by the Alara Kalama didn't lead to Nibbana, but Base of Nothingness as taught by the Buddha does AN11.17 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.017.than.html With metta, Alex #99285 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:52 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. nichiconn Hi again, Dan, D: You say, "Our memories, maybe." Not mine! c: Ok. Now I'm confused. Are you disagreeing with something Ledi Sayadaw or B. Bodhi said or my general agreement with your saying that the way we usually talk about memory, ours are pretty short? #99278 O, I know! You thought I was trying to close the lid on your box. Wasn't... was in a big hurry to leave for work. peace, connie #99286 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:57 am Subject: Re: Supramundane Jhaana truth_aerator Hi Jon and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (99207) > > Questions: > > 1)Siddhartha as a child sitting under the tree in Jhana. Was it mundane or supramandane path moment Jhana? MN36 > > > > It was called "The Path to Enlightment". MN36. > > =============== > > Every Buddha achieves enlightenment with jhana as basis. So for the Bodhisatta, the attainment of jhana (which he had eschewed because of the associated pleasant feeling) was the way to go. > Not just the Buddha. Anagamis must have perfected samadhi. AN 9.12 ALL Arhants possess at least 1st Jhana. Destruction of taints depend on Jhana. AN 9.36 > > =============== > > 3) Even in MahaSatipatthana sutta (which some over enthusiastic mistranslated as the only way in contradiction to the fact that Jhana as a path was taught 10x as often, even in that Nikaya) the phrase having removed covetenous & displeasure for the world. "vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam" which requires hindrances to be droped PRIOR to engaging in Satipatthana. Only when one has attained Jhana (MN68) do the unwholesome qualities not invade the mind and remain disabled for while - during the time where wisdom can occur. > > =============== > > There is no specific textual support for assuming that reference to "having removed covetousness & displeasure for the world (vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam)" is a reference to the attainment of jhana. > MN68. > To my understanding, these are references to momentary overcoming of kilesas (something that occurs at any moment of kusala). > > > =============== > > "And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html > > > > IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to achieve any insight when the hindrances are present. > > =============== > > Again, this has to be understood as referring to the non-arising of >the hindrances. This does not depend on jhana. Jhana temporarily suppresses hindrances and stronger jhana causes them to be suppressed for longer time. MN68 > Every moment of kusala is a moment of the non-arising (abandoning) >of the hindrances. > > Jon And that kusala moment cannot possibly happen until akusala (hindrances are suppressed). With metta, Alex #99287 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking kenhowardau Hi Sarah (and Scott), It must seem that I am stubbornly clinging to a mere theoretical small point, refusing to admit that it goes too far. I probably am, but underneath it all there is genuine confusion. ---------------- <. . .> KH to Scott: > > I still think that every word the Buddha spoke should be understood in terms of satipatthana, but I can see that there are good arguments on your side too. > > Sarah: > One thing for sure - there are only dhammas - namas and rupas. When the Buddha spoken and his (trained) disciples listened, there was never any doubt about this. There was also no doubt for them that there was only path ever being taught - that of satipatthana leading to full enlightenment. ------------------ Yes, I think we can all agree on that. And perhaps it's a good point on which to end the discussion? No such luck! :-) An ordinary teacher doesn't care how we react to his words - provided that the prescribed ritual is carried out. But there is nothing ordinary about a Buddha. Therefore, given that a reaction has to be either dana, sila, bhavana, lobha, dosa, or moha, which of those would be appropriate when hearing a word of the Buddha? Surely it has to be bhavana? That's why I am confused. Why is there some opposition here to my point about how every word of the teaching was to be understood? Admittedly, there is no control over these things, and our most common reaction to the Buddha's words will be with lobha or moha. But that doesn't make it appropriate. Conversely, one might ask, is bhavana ever an *inappropriate* reaction? Even when the subject was "teeth cleaning" I can't imagine the Buddha would ever have said, "Stop practising satipatthana while I'm talking to you!" :-) Ken H #99288 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:25 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. onco111 > c: Ok. Now I'm confused. Are you disagreeing with something Ledi Sayadaw or B. Bodhi said or my general agreement with your saying that the way we usually talk about memory, ours are pretty short? #99278 O, I know! You thought I was trying to close the lid on your box. Wasn't... was in a big hurry to leave for work. No, no. I thought you are trying to open a new box...or is it a can of worms? No memory of past lives in the stream of dhammas I'm so fond of calling "Me"--at least no memory in the way we usually talk about memory. -Dan #99289 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:04 pm Subject: Concentration for mindfulness. truth_aerator Hi Jon, Nina, Sarah, KenH, Scott and all interested, >"jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (99242) > > Did you read AN 5.51? When there is a moment of lust it is >already due to lapsed mindfulness in that moment. > > =============== > > AN 5.51 is indeed about the monk who is developing both >samatha/jhana and vipassana. But it does not lay down any general >rule for everyone about jhana as a prerequisite for the development >of awareness/insight. >> > =============== Sutta says that hindrances hinder wisdom. All of us are interested in more wisdom (I hope). Thus one of the conditions is to remove the barriers that prevent it it, the hindrances. Do you agree with me that at the exact moment of lets say lust, or hatred, or restlessness or remorse there is no panna? Panna cannot coexist with the hindrance, and while one is in Jhana the hindrances are knocked out for good. > What we are discussing is the conditions for the development of >awareness/insight at any level (no matter how weak), not the >conditions for being the perfect contemplative. > > Jon Eventually, when the conditions are right, I hope to be a perfect contemplative. I hope the same for you. The importance of concentration for deeper and subtler mindful awareness: When you take a magnifying glass, or microscope, you sacrifice the width of the area seen for the depth & clarity of analysis [quantity of space for quality of the image studied]. You see less area, but you see finer and subtler detail that otherwise you would not possible be able to see. Our usual attention is dissipated out over 6 "fields" so to say. It is impossible to give simultaneously 100% of bare attention to all 6. But when you start to let go off attention for the 5 sense objects you can have more and more attention freeing up for 1 object, one sense. Rather than attention being dissipated around the large field, you make it be mindful and aware of one thing but with greater penetration into finer and finer detail. First you let go off thoughts about past & the future and focus on present moment bare awareness. Then you switch off thinking and silently just be aware of nama-rupa happeninging now. Then you are aware only of the object of concentration, example the breath. You pay attention at air making contact with the nose and the feeling that is caused. Then you just focus on the cognition of the feeling. As you collect all your mindfulness in a more and more smaller area, you see finer and finer detail that is simply not seen in ordinary circumstances (like bacteria is not seen in daily life, one has to use a microscope to see them). Eventually like a physicist looking through a special microscope sees the "solid matter" dissolve into nothingness filled with forces, the same happens with the meditation. What was a physical observation becomes observation of sensation that ultimately goes to examining the very act of cognition without disturbance from other senses. A great way to know the "air element", for example, is to do deep anapanasati where the attention to 5 senses is minimizied as much as possible and full attention is on the bare sensation of air. A powerful way to know the difference between nama and rupa is, is by totally transcending rupa by getting into Aruppa meditation and then emerging from that arupa meditation and be aware of the difference. Like a turtle who gets out of water into dry land and then back in can really know the water (and wetness in contrast to dryness of dry land) better, same with a meditator who can know rupa better by temporarily transcending perception of it and then coming back and see the contrast. By transcending attention to rupa as much as possible, more attention can be freed up to focus on nama. More attention = more data that can make one have more and deeper insights and less hidden and unnoticed characteristics. What I am talking about is mobilizing all observation and awareness resources to one sense door only, in order to see it better with more attention. Then isolating that experience and going deeper to the bottom of it and sustaining undivided attention for as long time as possible. Obviously this degree of awareness simply cannot happen during daily life activities, such as cooking where 5 senses function. This is why one needs to sit down with closed eyes in a fairly secluded place.You sacrifice the quantity & diversity of multiple sense data for quality and deepness of one channel and one small area. This is why the Buddha recomended for meditation: ""And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html EVEN THE SATIPATTHANA SUTTA HAS: "And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html With metta, Alex #99290 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:18 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. nichiconn Dan: No memory of past lives in the stream of dhammas I'm so fond of calling "Me"--at least no memory in the way we usually talk about memory. c: Or the way we usually think of lives ;) I do seem to be pretty fond of worms. Did kinda gag me when I saw my kid eating a slug out in the yard, though. lol - maybe That's why she's vegetarian now! peace, connie #99291 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth nilovg Dear Dan, Op 16-jul-2009, om 22:19 heeft Dan D. het volgende geschreven: > Memorization does not require very much intellectual understanding, > but it plays an important role in learning Dhamma. With a > rudimentary understanding of the words and a quick and ready > formulation of how they fit together, the "wording of" Dhamma > student will be better prepared to observe dhammas as they arise > and pass away than will the "intellectual understanding" Dhamma > student who has become so accustomed to conceptualizing dhammas and > theorizing about them that it becomes more difficult to see beyond > the manufactured conceptual realities to catch a glimpse of the > real realities. Much more important than thinking about dhammas is > observing them live without preconceived notions of what they look > like. -------- N: You are interested in pariyatti and in this connection I like to requote a very good post of Sukin which is stuff for reflection for all of us, I think: < One important aspect of pariyatti is that it points to the dhamma arising in the present moment. Also it is not something that a `self' can decide to use in practice as one would do with other conventional knowledge and activities. It is after all a fleeting conditioned dhamma, which when arisen, falls away instantly. When for example, it is pointed out that `seeing' is a reality, and that this experiences `visible object', one's attention is bent towards this very phenomena. The level of understanding may not be such that the characteristic of seeing or visible object appears to panna. However, there is a lower level of panna which understands this intellectually and with some confidence. At such beginning level, there is already a planting the seed of understanding which relates to the development of satipatthana. One knows that it is *this* that needs to be understood through direct experience. The understanding becomes firmer as such kind of study happens more and more. And along the way when patipatti also arises, then this can reach the level of sacca ana. The theory has been verified through experience to the extent that one is firm about the object to be studied and that the practice is all about this very moment, and not some other time, place or activity. To repeat, this is the way, in my opinion, that the development of wisdom takes place. The understanding that it is all about presently arisen dhammas, with the support of the other sobhana cetasikas bends the mind to the present moment. In the beginning the understanding is weak; perhaps one has had little experience of one `world' at a time, that only intellectual appreciation can arise. However I think that it is by the same kind of conditioning factor that moments of actual experience arises, not by will, but by accumulated understanding. And this leads to greater understanding of the six worlds separately. Pativedha is when the insight knowledge arises, but this can only happen with the kind of practice which does not move away from the presently arisen dhamma to a more idealized situation or object. Therefore I think it is crucial to have a correct appreciation of pariyatti and what it is really about. Otherwise doubt and other unwholesome dhammas will lead us the wrong way, because we think that theory is just that, and involving only thinking and sanna. In other words we "seek to practice" precisely because we don't have the correct intellectual understanding and hence real appreciation for it. ;-)> (end quote0 ****** Nina. #99292 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sahajta/conascent and other paccayas sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, --- On Fri, 10/7/09, sprlrt wrote: >I've grouped together different conditions with supporting force (upatthambhaka satti) explained in parts with the same words in the Paccayaniddeso section of Patthna: sahajta (co-nascent) , aamaa (mutual), nissaya (dependece), sampayutta (association) , purejta (pre-nascent) , atthi (presence), avigata (non-disappearance) , and rammana (object). <....> ... S: I appreciate the way you share your careful studies. Anumodana! Metta, Sarah ====== #99293 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:48 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 4, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Some people may be inclined to sit and wait for the appearing of hearing, sound, like or dislike. In that way realities will not be known. We can go on with all the things we usually do and we do not have to do anything special in order to have awareness. For instance, when one is writing, there may be sound, hearing, like, dislike or any other reality. When moving the hand hardness or motion may appear and these realities can be object of awareness. We should not mind what kind of reality presents itself. One may be trying to catch the difference between hearing and sound, seeing and visible object, but in that way realities will not be known. Sometimes there may be mindfulness of rpa, sometimes of nma, it all depends on the sati. I am glad to hear that while you talk there can also be awareness. One may be inclined to think that it is impossible to be aware while talking, since one has to think of what one is going to say. Now you can prove to yourself that also at such moments there are nmas and rpas appearing. The thinking which occurs while one is talking is also a reality which can be object of awareness. If there never is awareness of thinking one cannot learn that thinking is anatt. Our life consists of nma and rpa. When there is the development of awareness everything appears as usual, but before we did not know that what appears is a characteristic of reality. There is hearing, seeing or feeling all the time, but when there is no awareness we do not realize that they are only conditioned realities, nmas. There is a reality at every moment but when we are forgetful we do not realize this. We should develop right understanding until we are familiar with the characteristics which appear, until there is no more doubt about them. ******* Nina. #99294 From: "sprlrt" Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:08 am Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 3 ! sprlrt Hi Suan, This is from MN 26 (Na-BB trans.). Exit sprlrt :-) - Alberto > > Suppressing them through samadhi, concentration on a conceptual object, like the upper lip or nostrils while breathing, is part of the pre-Buddhist path, the development of jhanas. > do you have any textual support for your claim? "13. 'Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while was still an unelightened Bodhisatta, [...] "15. [...] Thus Alra-Klma, my teacher, placed me, his pupil, on an equal footing with himself, and awarded me the highest honour. But it occurred to me: 'This Dhamma does not lead to disenchantment [na nibbidya], to dispassion [na virgya], to cessation [na nirodhya], to peace [na upasamāya], to direct knowledge [na abhiāya], to enlightenment [na sambodhāya], to Nibbāna, but only to reapperance in the base of nothingness [kicayatanpapattiy]. Not being satisfied with that Dhamma, I left it and went away." "[Note] 301. MA: He (Alra-Kalana) taught him (the Buddha) the seven attainments [jhnas] (of serenity meditation [samatha bhvana]) ending in the base of nothingness [kicayatana], the third of the four immaterial attainments [arpa jhans]." [...] #99295 From: sarahprocterabbott@... Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:36 am Subject: Seclusion - "off the mark" for veneration sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, From MN 77, Mahaasakuludaayi Sutta, ~Naa.namoli,Bodhi transl.: The Buddha: "But Udaayin, how many qualities do you see in me because of which my disciples honour, respect, revere, and venerate me, and live in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me?" "Venerable Sir, I see five qualities in the Blessed One because of which his disciples honour, respect, revere, and venerate him, and live in dependence on him, honouring and respecting him. What are the five? First, venerable sir, the Blessed One eats little and commends eating little.....Again, venerable sir, the Blessed One is content with any kind of robe and commends contentment with any kind of robe......content with any kind of almsfood.....content with any kind of resting place.....Again, venerable sir, the Blessed One is ***secluded and commends seclusion***; this I see as the fifth quality of the Blessed One......because of which his disciples honour, respect, revere, and venerate him, and live in dependence of him, honouring and respecting him." "Suppose, Udaayin, my disciples honoured, respected, revered and venerated me, and lived in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me, with the thought: 'The recluse Gotama eats little and commends eating little.' Now there are disciples of mine who live on a cupful or half a cupful of food, a bilba fruit's or half a bilva fruit's quantity of food, while I sometimes eat the full contents of my almsbowl or even more. So if my disciples honoured me.....then those disciples of mind who live on a cupful of food...should not honour, respect, revere, and venerate me for this quality, nor should they live in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me." S: The same follows for the example of the robe, kind of almsfood, kind of resting place and finally seclusion: "Suppose, Udaayin, my disciples honoured, respected, revered, and venerated me, and lived in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me, with the thought: 'The recluse Gotama is secluded and commends seclusion.' Now there are disciples of mine who are forest dwellers, dwellers in remote resting places, who live withdrawn in remote jungle-thicket resting places and return to the midst of the Sangha once each half-month for the recitation of the Paatimokkha. But I sometimes live surrounded by bhikkhus and bhikkhuniis, by men and women lay-followers, by kings and kings' ministers, by other sectarians and their disciples. So if my disciples honoured me.....with the thought: 'The recluse Gotama is secluded and commends seclusion,' then those disciples of mine who are forest dwellers....should not honour, respect.....me for this quality, nor should they live in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me. Thus Udaayin, it is not because of these five qualities that my disciples honour, respect, revere, and venerate me, and live in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me. "However, Udaayin, there are five other qualities because of which my disciples honour, respect, revere and venerate me, and live in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me. What are the five?" S: The sutta then proceeds with a description of: 1. The Higher Virtue 2. Knowledge and Vision 3. The Higher Wisdom 4. The Four Noble Truths 5. The Way to Develop Wholesome States, beginning with the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. Metta, Sarah ========= #99296 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:04 am Subject: More on Seclusion in Jungle Thickets sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Not much use in the Seclusion of the Jungle Thickets for those of other views or even for the Buddha's followers without any sati-sampaja~n~naa From MN 17 "Vanapattha Sutta", ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi transl: The Buddha: "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives in some jungle thicket. While he is living there his unestablished mindfulness does not become established, his unconcentrated mind does not become concentrated, his undestroyed taints do not come to destruction, he does not attain the unattained supreme security from bondage; and also the requisites of life that should be obtained by one gone forth - robes, almsfood, resting place, and medicinal requisites - are hard to come by. The bhikkhu should consider thus: 'I am living in this jungle thicket. While I am living here my unestablished mindfulness does not become established.....I do not attain the unattained supreme security from bondage; and also the requisites of life...are hard to come by.' That bhikkhu should depart from that jungle thicket that very night or that very day; he should not continue living there." Metta, Sarah ======== #99297 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:04 am Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 3 ! abhidhammika Hello Alberto, Connie, Nina, Alex, Howard, Phil, Robert E, Chris F, Jon, Sarah How are you? Thank you, Alberto, for the MN 26 quote in support of your claim. One of the advantages of being a Buddhist is the ability to see things in light of the relevant context and framework. The Noble Eightfold Path discovered by the Buddha is more than the pre-Buddhist samatha. Sammaasamaadhi or Ariyan samatha is merely one of the eight obligatory components of the Noble Eightfold Path. The fact that samatha was practiced for Jhaanas before the Buddha's awakening should not have become an excuse for downplaying and discarding the formal practice of the Right Concentration to the fullest strength. The future Buddha having left the two teachers did not mean that he has discarded the formal practice of samatha to the highest level, to the fullest strength. The future Buddha having left Kaalaamo and Udako merely meant that he still needed discover seven more mandatory components of the Noble Eightfold Path. The future Buddha was fortunate enough to have met Aa.laaro Kaalaamo for attainment of Aakincaaayatana Jhaana, and Udako for Nevasaaanaasaaayatana Jhaana. Precisely because the future Buddha had attained Nevasaaanaasaaayatana Jhaana that is the highest level of Right Concentration, he was able to go further to finally attain Sabbautana.nam exclusive to the Buddha. After having become the Buddha, whenever he entered the Nirodhasamaapatti, the Buddha always stepped through the compulsory eight Jhaanas beginning from the First Jhaana through to the Nevasaaanaasaaayatana Jhaana before Nirodhasamaapatti. What did the above paragraph show? The Buddha always resorted to the Ariyan samatha to reactivate and enter the Eight Jhaanas after his Sabbautana.na Awakening. Therefore, Alberto, you still need to ponder the following Pali passage from Dhammacakkappavattanasuttam, Section 1081 Mahaavaggo, Samyuttanikaayo. "`Idam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, aa.nam udapaadi, paaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi." Please pay special attention to the expression `pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu (previously unheard-of phenomena)'. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #99298 From: westbankj@... Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... farrel.kevin Hi Jon, In a message dated 7/15/2009 6:16:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: (99173) [Kevin:] > I started to realize that some of the views I had adopted and decisions I > made may have been motivated by psychological factors that I had never > realized. For example, I think it is a lot easier psychologically to accept > the Mahayana view that all dhammas are empty and not truly arisen than it is > to accept the Theravada view that there are some dhammas that are real but > that you as a self-having individual, are not. It's harder on the old ego > to think that something is real but that you are not than it is to think > that all dharmas are just empty and not really arising. > ============ [Jon:] I hadn't thought of it that way. It may be as you say, although in the end it boils down to one's accumulated views about things: what has most appeal. [Kevin:] I Jon, absolutely! That is why our accumulated self-view may find it hard to believe that some things do exist in the ultimate sense but that a self does not. > [Jon:] Anyway, congratulations on your decision to air this on the list. I hope you find this useful. Jon [Kevin:] Thank you! I most certainly do... Kevin #99300 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth onco111 Dear Nina, Interesting essay from Sukin! A summary: when we study Dhamma and think hard enough about the ideas, we develop an intellectual appreciation, which is essential if we ever want to overcome the urge to practice. ...but I wonder if any of this has any support in the Tipitaka. -Dan #99301 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:59 am Subject: Re: Concentration for mindfulness. scottduncan2 Dear Alex: A few rhetorical comments regarding: A: "Eventually, when the conditions are right, I hope to be a perfect contemplative..." Scott: This 'hope', unfortunately, is why one who holds it will not succeed. Such a project is founded on craving. I'd suggest that such a view pays lip service to an understanding of conditions and anatta, merely using the words in different combinations, but the essence of the writing - an ongoing misunderstanding of these things - continues to show through. A: "The importance of concentration for deeper and subtler mindful awareness..." Scott: I'm afraid I'm not much impressed with the contents of your prose here, Alex. As you begin your short essay, you refer to 'deeper and subtler mindful awareness.' I would suggest that you have made this whole thing up. You are not clear, when you refer to 'concentration,' as to what mental factor you are describing. You are not clear as to what mental factor you refer to as 'awareness.' Knowing your bent, you're likely only referring to common, everyday, conventional experiences, mistaken as self, and not with any precision at all to anything else. There is no precision or clarity in any of this. You've gotten yourself down a twisted path, Alex. A: "...Our usual attention is dissipated out over 6 'fields' so to say. It is impossible to give simultaneously 100% of bare attention to all 6. But when you start to let go off attention for the 5 sense objects you can have more and more attention freeing up for 1 object, one sense. Rather than attention being dissipated around the large field, you make it be mindful and aware of one thing but with greater penetration into finer and finer detail. First you let go off thoughts about past & the future and focus on present moment bare awareness. Then you switch off thinking and silently just be aware of nama-rupa happeninging now. Then you are aware only of the object of concentration, example the breath. You pay attention at air making contact with the nose and the feeling that is caused..." Scott: This too is fraught with loose thinking and popular psychology. Abhidhamma precision doesn't allow for the sloppy notion that 'our usual attention is dissipated out over 6 fields.' One moment of consciousness at a time; one object at a time. It only seems to be as you describe, also a function of dhammaa. Again, what is 'attention?' The language - 'you make it be mindful,' 'you let go of thoughts,' 'you switch off thinking' - demonstrates clearly that this is merely thinking about a self with an ability to direct things. The instruction 'to silently just be aware of nama-rupa happening now' is meaningless. I think Sarah already clarified the way in which you misunderstand the term 'naama-ruupa.' When you say 'feeling' do you refer to pleasant, painful, or neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling? Do you refer to body sense? The rest of this section of your essay is more of the same. These are rhetorical questions, Alex. Please don't try to explain yourself to me. ;-) A: "...What I am talking about is mobilizing all observation and awareness resources to one sense door only, in order to see it better with more attention. Then isolating that experience and going deeper to the bottom of it and sustaining undivided attention for as long time as possible. Obviously this degree of awareness simply cannot happen during daily life activities, such as cooking where 5 senses function. This is why one needs to sit down with closed eyes in a fairly secluded place.You sacrifice the quantity & diversity of multiple sense data for quality and deepness of one channel and one small area..." Scott: You continue to repeat the same views, unaffected by any cogent demonstration to the contrary. Please have the last word on this, Alex, if you would. I see where Sarah offers a very good sutta for your consideration... Sincerely, Scott. #99302 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:02 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. onco111 c:...Did kinda gag me when I saw my kid eating a slug out in the yard, though. lol - maybe That's why she's vegetarian now! --> Was it your gagging or the slug that pushed her over the edge? #99303 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth nilovg Dear Dan, Op 17-jul-2009, om 17:41 heeft Dan D. het volgende geschreven: > A summary: when we study Dhamma and think hard enough about the > ideas, we develop an intellectual appreciation, which is essential > if we ever want to overcome the urge to practice. > > ...but I wonder if any of this has any support in the Tipitaka. ------- N: It is not a matter of thinking hard, rather of reflecting and verifying in life what we heard. Considering what appears now, thus, this is very near, not far away. Take again the example of your son's dislike for food, and your stimulating talk which was a condition for him to change habits. It is all very natural. Support in the Tipitaka. Here is a text about the need of pariyatti, a quote of Ven. Dhammanando's translation of the co. given by Rob K: < Pariyatti as the Root of the Ssan (From the Atthakath to Anguttara Nikya, Ekanipta, Dutiyapamddivagga, 42nd sutta) """"""And in that place [Maṇḍalrma Monastery in Kallagma] there arose a discussion among the elders as to whether the root of the Dispensation consisted in practice (paṭipatti) or in study of the Teaching (pariyatti). Those elders who were wearers of rag-robes said, "practice is the root," and those elders who were teachers of Dhamma said, "study is the root." Then some elders said, "we cannot decide between your two opinions merely on the basis of your assertions. Support them by quoting a saying spoken by the Conqueror." "It will be no trouble to quote a saying," replied both sides. Then the elders who were wearers of rag-robes quoted these passages: "Subhadda, if bhikkhus in this very Dispensation were to live rightly, the world would not be empty of arahants." "Your majesty, the Teacher's Dispensation is rooted in practice and has practice as its pith. While practice is maintained, the Dispensation lasts." After listening to these sayings, the elders who were teachers of Dhamma then quoted this saying as proof of their own claim: "For as long the Suttantas endure, for as long as the Vinaya is taught, For just that long will there be light, like that after the sun has risen. But when the Suttantas are no more, and when the Vinaya is forgotten, There will be darkness in the world, like that after the sun has set. While the Suttantas are protected, then is practice protected too; A sage, being grounded in practice, fails not to reach peace from the bonds." When this saying was quoted, the elders who were wearers of rag- robes became silent and the speech of the teachers of Dhamma prevailed. Neither among a hundred bulls, nor among a thousand, will even a single bull ensure the continuance of his line in the absence of a cow. Even so, neither among a hundred bhikkhus intent on insight, nor among a thousand, will even a single bhikkhu penetrate the noble path in the absence of pariyatti. Marks are engraved in rock to show the location of buried treasure; for as long as those marks endure, the treasure is not reckoned as lost. Even so, for as long as pariyatti endures, the Teacher's Dispensation is not reckoned to have disappeared.""""" (Manorathapraṇ i. 92-3, translation by venerable Dhammanando)> (end quote). ***** Nina. #99304 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth onco111 Dear Nina, Yes, of course we all agree that pariyatti (learning the wording of the doctrine) would be crucial to preserving the dispensation in the days of oral transmission and that hearing the teaching is essential to development. Jon glosses pariyatti as "intellectual understanding", but this meaning does not make sense in the context of the commentary you cite nor in Vism 95 [PTS]. I agree that pariyatti can't mean "think hard about the ideas", but "intellectual understanding" so strongly suggests "thinking hard about the ideas" as a practice that pariyatti is construed as a tool for combatting the impulse to practice (as, e.g., in Sukin's post that you cited). Is there anywhere in the tipitaka that defines pariyatti as "intellectual understanding" or that we need to develop an intellectual appreciation of the doctrine in order to combat the impulse to practice? I must admit that Sukin is right that a striving to develop intellectual understanding can be quite effective at stifling an inclination to practice. And the Pali canon provides much fodder for intellectualizing. Metta, Dan #99305 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, westbankj@... wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > In a message dated 7/15/2009 6:16:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > (99173) > [Kevin:] > I started to realize that some of the views I had adopted and > decisions I > > made may have been motivated by psychological factors that I had never > > realized. For example, I think it is a lot easier psychologically to > accept > > the Mahayana view that all dhammas are empty and not truly arisen than > it is > > to accept the Theravada view that there are some dhammas that are real > but > > that you as a self-having individual, are not. It's harder on the old > ego > > to think that something is real but that you are not than it is to think > > > that all dharmas are just empty and not really arising. Hi Kevin and Jon, When Kevin first wrote the above I was tempted to express my wholehearted agreement. But then I thought "Now is not the time for unseemly over enthusiasm." :-) --------- > [Jon:] I hadn't thought of it that way. It may be as you say, although in > the end it boils down to one's accumulated views about things: what has > most appeal. > > [Kevin:] I Jon, absolutely! That is why our accumulated self-view may > find it hard to believe that some things do exist in the ultimate sense but > that a self does not. --------- KH: Yes, the teaching of conditioned paramattha dhammas explains how there can be a world without self. It leaves no way open for some subtle form of self. Therefore the petulant view 'if I can't exist then nor can anything else" has the added bonus of leaving that way open. Ken H #99306 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:26 pm Subject: Deep Calm! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Deepest Tranquilization is that of Greed, Hate, and Ignorance! The Blessed Buddha once said: Formerly, when that person was still ignorant, then he was possessed & obsessed by sexual & sensual greed, lust, desire, yearning, envy, jealousy, and miserliness... He was obsessed & possessed by hate, anger, ill-will, irritation and stubbornness... He was obsessed and possessed by ignorance, doubt, delusion & plain foolishness... These evils are now overcome by him, eradicated, like a slashed and uprooted tree, completely destroyed, and therefore unable to sprout into existence ever again! Therefore such Bhikkhu, thus endowed, is indeed enriched by the highest Calm! This tranquillization is his unshakable foundation! Since this, friends, is the very highest and most precious: The Tranquillization of Greed, Hate, and Ignorance!!! <...> Source Text (extract): Majjhima Nikāya 140: Analysis of the Elements: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html Have a nice calm day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Deep Calm! #99307 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:33 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. nichiconn Hi Dan, --> Was it your gagging or the slug that pushed her over the edge? c: My cooking? She usually just says she doesn't want to eat anything that might've had friends. As good a reason as any, I suppose, but she's still inclined to eat things like tofurky. Who can tell for sure why things happen the way they do? Ever since Scott started talking about their cat ours has practically moved in to my room... yesterday, she let me know one of the windows is her new door; would i mind opening it for her so she could come in. We all seem to think we're story tellers, but isn't it just as much- or more- the case that the stories tell us and asynchronous kamma has more bearing on the vipakas arising in this life-time than this life-time's acts do? I don't know. For that matter, eating just for health is one thing, but why encourage kids to develop stronger appetites than they already have instead of 'pulling them away from the poisonous snake'? Ah, but let me quit talking with my mouth full and go back to reading the label on the can: #98643 - << We may believe that this particular person, this place and this situation are the causes of our unhappiness. However, these are not the real causes. The real cause is our accumulated dosa. When we are aware of naama and ruupa there is less enslavement to the objects we experience. >> peace, connie #99308 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth nilovg Dear Dan, Op 17-jul-2009, om 22:16 heeft Dan D. het volgende geschreven: > I must admit that Sukin is right that a striving to develop > intellectual understanding can be quite effective at stifling an > inclination to practice. And the Pali canon provides much fodder > for intellectualizing. ------ N: Practice without a basis of understanding what the objects of satipatthaana are, and what sati and pa~n~naa are will not lead to the goal. One may just practise with an idea of self, not knowing that whatever arises is conditioned and cannot be directed by a 'self'. Intellectualizing does not seem a good term. I would rather say: understanding, and that of different levels. Nina. #99309 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:20 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 4, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, When we are hungry or when we have a headache there are different kinds of nma and rpa. There is rpa such as hardness, there are nmas such as painful bodily feeling or unhappy mental feeling, there are many realities appearing. If there is no awareness when there is painful feeling we will think that pain can last for a while. When there is mindfulness we can find out that there are many other kinds of nma and rpa presenting themselves besides the pain caused by the impact on the bodysense. Pain does not stay, it falls away immediately, and then it arises again. We find our likes and dislikes very important. We let ourselves be carried away by like and dislike instead of being aware of different realities. We read in the Kindred Sayings ( IV, Salyatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Third Fifty, Chapter III, 130, Hliddaka): Once the venerable Kaccna the Great was staying among the folk of Avanti, at Ospreys Haunt, on a sheer mountain crag. Then the housefather Hliddakni came to the venerable Kaccna the Great. Seated at one side he said this:- It has been said by the Exalted One, sir, Owing to diversity in elements arises diversity of contact. Owing to diversity of contact arises diversity of feeling. Pray, sir, how far is this so? Herein, housefather, after having seen a pleasant object with the eye, a monk comes to know as such eye-consciousness that is a pleasant experience. Owing to contact that is pleasant to experience arises happy feeling. After having seen with the eye an object that is unpleasant, a monk comes to know as such eye-consciousness that is an unpleasant experience. Owing to contact that is unpleasant to experience arises unhappy feeling. After having seen with the eye an object that is of indifferent effect, a monk comes to know as such eye-consciousness that experiences an object which is of indifferent effect. Owing to contact that is indifferent to experience arises feeling that is indifferent. So also, housefather, after having heard a sound with the ear, smelt a scent with the nose, tasted a flavour with the tongue, experienced tangible object with the body, cognized with the mind a mental object, that is pleasantOwing to contact that is pleasant to experience arises happy feeling. But after having cognized a mental object which is unpleasantowing to contact that is unpleasant to experience arises unhappy feeling. Again, after having cognized with the mind a mental object that is indifferent in effect, he comes to know as such mind-consciousness that experiences an object which is of indifferent effect. Owing to contact that is indifferent arises feeling that is indifferent. Thus, housefather, owing to diversity in elements arises diversity of contact. Owing to diversity of contact arises diversity of feeling. We do not come to know seeing, visible object, contact and feeling as such merely by just thinking about them. Pa should realize the characteristic of seeing when it presents itself; it should realize seeing as nma which arises because of conditions, not self. ******* Nina. #99310 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 8. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Alex & all, --- On Wed, 8/7/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >When > there is asammoha-sampajaa there is non-delusion about > the object > of awareness. One no longer doubts whether there can be > awareness > while one is busy or while one is in trying circumstances. > When there > is no delusion the realities appearing through the six > doors can be > known as they are, as not self. When there is awareness of > visible > object there is no delusion about visible object, it is > realized as > just a reality, not a person or a thing. .... S: I think this is the "bottom-line". When satipatthana arises, there is no thought about the circumstances such as whether another situation would be preferable. Visible object is just visible object and there can be awareness of it anytime. As this awareness develops, there are no more doubts about the time and place of practice. Metta, Sarah ======= #99311 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Alex (& Jon), === >A: In AN 8.2 one 8 conditions for insight = seclusion > > "Having heard the Dhamma, he achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... > http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an08/an08. 002.than. html > ============ === .... S: In different contexts, seclusion carries a different meaning. Here in this sutta (and many others), I'm pretty confident that it is referring to seclusion of cittas and cetasikas, i.e to kaaya-passaddhi and citta-passaddhi. I've checked other similar passages before. The Paali in the text is: kaayavuupakaasena ca cittavuupakaasena. Vuupasammati means quieted or calmed. When the citta is wholesome, it is always accompanied by these mental factors of calmness. I think it was Connie who gave a quote on this meaning of seclusion. Alex, this isn't to say that seclusion in the texts never refers to physical seclusion, but we need to check the context carefully each time. Metta, Sarah ======= #99312 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apology for wrong speech sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Scott), --- On Thu, 9/7/09, Phil wrote: >I apologize for my latest troll-like appearance. I didn't use harsh speech or commit wrong speech in the ways defined by the Buddha, but I think posting opinions and not reading the responses must be related to wrong speech. (Imagine a bhikkhu in the Buddha's day expressing an opinion, then turning away and covering his ears. Surely he would get a whack from the Buddha for that.) ..... S: Well, no Buddha here and I see no problem with your 'write and run' approach. I was just discussing styles with Scott and I never think in terms of 'trolls'. I think people write because they have an interest in the Teachings, that's all. >..So much passionate enthusiasm for Dhamma these days!) .... S: Share, write and run anytime:). And in case you're reading this Phil, you've alluded many times to the 'unfortunate' episode a few years ago when you returned to Canada with a suggestion that K.Sujin or her students would not speak out or discourage strong breaches of sila. Let me assure you that if I had had any hint or clue from you that you were about to do something seriously harmful to you and your wife, I would have sent you an off-list cautionary note. Usually, people are pretty good at keeping these things secret from friends and family until after the event, however, because they don't wish to hear any discouragement of the lobha involved at the time. Metta, Sarah ======= #99313 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Jon, Howard, Alex & all, === >>J: The physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by the > Buddha, as far as I know. > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----- >H: Well, Jon, we must have read different nikayas. > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ .... S: Another quote from MN, this time MN65 "Bhaddaali Sutta", ~Naa.ma,oli/Bodhi transl: "Here, Bhaddali, some bhikkhu does not fulfil the training in the Teacher's Dispensation. He considers thus: 'Suppose I were to resort to a secluded resting place: the forest, the root of a tree, a mountain, a ravine, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle thicket, an open space, a heap of straw - perhaps I might realise a superhuman state, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones.' He resorts to some such secluded resting-place. While he lives thus withdrawn, the Teacher censures him, wise companions in the holy life who have made investigation censure him, gods censure him, and he censures himself. Being censured in this way by the Teacher, by wise companions in the holy life, by gods, and by himself, he realises no superhuman state, no distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. Why is that? That is how it is with one who does not fulfil the training in the Teacher's Dispensation." S: Of course there is no censure for the bhikkhu who fulfiles the training in such places. Metta, Sarah ========= #99314 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Alex & all, --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Alex wrote: >When you sit down and close your eyes, you are temporarily relinquishing sights. When you sit in a place outside of smells and activity, you are relinquishing smells and things 'to do'. .... S: And then of course you could relinquish food, so there was no taste as well:) From MN 36 Mahaasaccaka Sutta, ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi transl: "....They take food once a day, once every two days...once every severn days, and so on up to once every fortnight; they dwell pursuing the practice of taking food at stated intervals." "But do they subsist on so little, Aggivessana?" "No, Master Gotama, sometimes they consume excellent hard food, eat excellent soft food, taste excellent delicacies, drink excellent drinks. Thereby they again regain their strength, fortify themselves, and become fat." [S: the same could be said about when one opens ones eyes again and so on!] The Buddha says a little later: "What you have just spoken of as development of body, Aggivessana, is not development of body according to the Dhamma in the Noble One's Discipline. Since you do not know what development of body is, how could you know what development of mind is?...." "And how, Aggivessana, is one developed in body (bhaavitakaayo) and developed in mind (bhaavitacitto)? Here Aggivessana, pleasant feeling arises in a well-taught noble disciple. Touched by that pleasant feeling, he does not lust after pleasure or continue to lust after pleasure. That pleasant feeling of his ceases. With the cessation of the pleasant feeling, painful feeling arises. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, and lament, he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. When that pleasant feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his mind and remain because body is developed.* And when that painful feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his mind and remain because mind is developed.* Anyone in whom, in this double manner, arisen pleasant feeling does not invade his mind and remian because body is developed, and arisen painful feeling does not invade his mind and remain because mind is developed, is thus developed in body and developed in mind." * S: So the references here to "developed in body" have nothing to do with physical seclusion, to closing one's eyes, avoiding smells or tastes or sounds or anything else. In fact, as the commentary note the translators include states, it is "development of body" in this context is insight and "development of mind" is concentration. We need to consider the words carefully in each sutta, I find. Metta, Sarah ========= #99315 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and all) - In a message dated 7/18/2009 9:04:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Jon, Howard, Alex & all, === >>J: The physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by the > Buddha, as far as I know. > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----- >H: Well, Jon, we must have read different nikayas. > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ .... S: Another quote from MN, this time MN65 "Bhaddaali Sutta", ~Naa.ma,oli/Bodhi transl: "Here, Bhaddali, some bhikkhu does not fulfil the training in the Teacher's Dispensation. He considers thus: 'Suppose I were to resort to a secluded resting place: the forest, the root of a tree, a mountain, a ravine, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle thicket, an open space, a heap of straw - perhaps I might realise a superhuman state, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones.' He resorts to some such secluded resting-place. While he lives thus withdrawn, the Teacher censures him, wise companions in the holy life who have made investigation censure him, gods censure him, and he censures himself. Being censured in this way by the Teacher, by wise companions in the holy life, by gods, and by himself, he realises no superhuman state, no distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. Why is that? That is how it is with one who does not fulfil the training in the Teacher's Dispensation." S: Of course there is no censure for the bhikkhu who fulfiles the training in such places. Metta, Sarah ============================ Sarah, I had followed up to Jon with regard to ******************************** J: The physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by the Buddha, as far as I know. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----- H: Well, Jon, we must have read different nikayas. ********************************************* indicating to him that I had misread what he wrote. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99316 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:51 am Subject: Sarah Misunderstood Vanapattha Suttam: Re: More on Seclusion in Jungle Thickets abhidhammika Hello Sarah How are you? I am afraid that you have misunderstood the message of Vanapattha suttam. The forests in Section 191 and 192 are not conducive to the arising of sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi, and sammaadi.t.thi. So, the Buddha instructed the monks to leave those unbeneficial and unfavourable types of forests. But, the forests in Section 193 and 194 are conducive to the arising of sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi and sammaadi.t.thi. So, the Buddha instructed the monks to remain in those beneficial and favourable types of forests. Please remember that the Buddha was not finding fault with physical seclusion as such. Therefore, if you were looking for a suttam support to downplay the importance of physical seclusion, you were unsuccessful, and the sections you quoted did not support your mindless purposeful action, which seems to be ideologically motivated. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Friends, > > Not much use in the Seclusion of the Jungle Thickets for those of other views or even for the Buddha's followers without any sati-sampaja~n~naa > > From MN 17 "Vanapattha Sutta", ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi transl: > > The Buddha: "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives in some jungle thicket. While he is living there his unestablished mindfulness does not become established, his unconcentrated mind does not become concentrated, his undestroyed taints do not come to destruction, he does not attain the unattained supreme security from bondage; and also the requisites of life that should be obtained by one gone forth - robes, almsfood, resting place, and medicinal requisites - are hard to come by. The bhikkhu should consider thus: 'I am living in this jungle thicket. While I am living here my unestablished mindfulness does not become established.....I do not attain the unattained supreme security from bondage; and also the requisites of life...are hard to come by.' That bhikkhu should depart from that jungle thicket that very night or that very day; he should not continue living there." > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > #99317 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Casperia, nr Rome sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, Back to #98813 on styles.... --- On Mon, 29/6/09, Scott wrote: >Scott: I think there are certain cats, and these exist in various places throughout the world, which have the accumulations to be attracted to the Dhamma, and in particular, to the ethereal Dhamma emanations ('Dhammanations' ) common to those radiating out of World Wide Web communication. These are known as 'Dhamma cats.' They are also known to be into jazz. ;-) >Oh, here's Miss Little again. Ouch... ..... S: :-) .... >>S: "...Meanwhile, those with different views on practice or meditation (from us), be assured your contributions are as welcome as anyone else's, as far as we're concerned! Please encourage and be patient with each other:)." >Scott: May I offer an opinion, which may differ from yours here? Different views are welcome. Being no doubt impatient, I'd encourage shorter posts, less repetition, and less opposition for opposition's sake. To me, its too much like the senseless bickering of opposing religious adherents as it is. >Different views are not the problem, as I see it. The style of discussion, its level and tone - these are problematic. <...> >What are your thoughts about this? ..... S: I liked Nina's comments in #98813, especially the last sentence: "We read what others write and then we do our best to clear up misunderstandings. We all have misunderstandings about the teachings, nobody is perfect.." With regard to the styles, I think we all have styles that many other people have objections to and we appreciate it a lot when others don't over-react when we use some tasteless humour or our comments sound too sharp, for example:) In the same way, we can try and be understanding of others when they are long-winded, repetitive or seem to oppose what we say for the sake of it. As Nina has said, some of us are fortunate to have had good models of patience and tolerance in this regard. So I don't really mind very much how anyone writes to me - I'm more interested in the points of Dhamma being discussed and I understand how sensitive many of the topics here are for many people. I also like to encourage anyone, because we never know the personal circumstances or when the seeds of Dhamma planted here may bring fruit. I think that patience and metta are very important as Nina stressed. But no need to agree or have the same opinion:-). Metta, Sarah ========= #99318 From: sarahprocterabbott@... Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Sat, 18/7/09, upasaka@... wrote: ========= ======= >Sarah, I had followed up to Jon with regard to ************ ********* ********* ** J: The physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by the Buddha, as far as I know. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----- H: Well, Jon, we must have read different nikayas. ************ ********* ********* ********* ****** >indicating to him that I had misread what he wrote. ... S: Thx for pointing this out Howard, I got very behind with my reading and am still trying to catch up with the back-log before leaving again tomorrow:). I start pulling out books like a kid with a set of new toys and get further behind with threads.... Nice to see everyone's in agreement then and the agreement is supported by the Nikayas:-)). I'll continue addressing all the quotes to Alex in future, then, lol! Metta, Sarah ====== #99319 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:51 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: We see anicca: So why aren't we all Awakened? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 16-jul-2009, om 23:14 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > N: Because they are merely thinking of change and impermanence. They > > do not realize the momentary arising and falling away of nama and > > rupa, which is the first stage of mahaa-vipassanaa. > > And how exactly does one one do that? How exactly does one "see" > momentary arising & falling of nama & rupa? > > It seems that for a lot of people talk about anicca, dukkha, > anatta, paramattha is just another conceptual thing. Sure it may be > theoretically correct, but what is pragmatic result? How is this > supposed to be used so that it doesn't remain at the level of "just > another concepts [no matter how right they are]" ------- N: You have a good question. By the development of insight knowledge, stage by stage, there will be the realizing of the arising and falling away of nama and rupa, one at a time, as they are objects of sati and pa~n~naa. This is not thinking of impermanence but direct understanding. When the first stage of tender insight has not been reached, knowing precisely the characteristic of nama and of rupa as they appear one at a time, the direct understanding of their arising and falling away cannot occur. At each stage of insight pa~n~naa develops and also detachment from nama and rupa. When sati is just beginning, there can sometimes be a moment of awareness of a characteristic of nama or rupa and then thinking about them follows. One still holds on to the characteristic that was the object of sati just before and thus one is not ready to understand a following nama or rupa. More detachment is needed to realize the arising and falling away of realities which is the fourth stage of insight (counting from the first stage of tender insight), or, the first stage of principal insight, mahaa-vipassanaa. It is insight that leads to detachment. At each stage there will be more detachment. ------- Nina. #99320 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:14 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation nichiconn Dear Han, Friends, A short quote from the summary of arguments against torpor being material in Topics of Abhidhamma, Exposition II.5 : Some argue that torpor is material; this is not right as it is included among those things, such as sense-desire, that should be abandoned. For it is described along with the hindrances that should be abandoned; what is material, however, is not mentioned as something that is to be abandoned by [the paths of] seeing, and so forth. As to the passage which states 'materiality is not yours, monks; one should abandon it,' it is materialities appearance in the nature of what must be abandoned that is indicated here. It is the giving up of desire for materiality as object that is declared here, for the discarding of desire is what is stated [in the texts]. The footnotes in this section refer to the Middle Length Discourses & I thought, Han - not to drag you into any arguments! -you'd be interested in the one, c, that mentions 'space'. a.> 8.4. "It is possible here, Cunda, that quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhaana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. He might think thus: 'I am abiding in effacement.' But it is not these attainments that are called 'effacement' in theNoble One's Discipline: these are called 'pleasant abidings here and now' in the Noble One's Discipline. {106} b.> 13.16. (iii) "And what, bhikkhus, is the escape in the case of sensual pleasures? It is the removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for sensual pleasures. {203} This is the escape in the case of sensual pleasures. c.> 28.26. "Friends, just as when a space is enclosed by timber and creepers, grass, and clay, it comes to be termed 'house,' so to, when a space is enclosed by bones and sinews, flesh and skin, it comes to be termed 'material form'. {338} 27. "If, friends, internally the eye is intact but no external forms come into its range, and there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness. {339} If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range, but there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range and there is the coresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness. 28. "The material form in what has thus come to be is included in the material form aggregate affected by clinging. {340} The feeling in what has thus come to be is included in the feeling aggregate affected by clinging. The perception in what has thus come to be is included in the perception aggregate affected by clinging. The formations in what has thus come to be are included in the formations aggregate affected by clinging. The consciousness in what has thus come to be is included in the consciousness aggregate affected by clinging. He understands thus: 'This, indeed, is how there comes to be the inclusion, gathering, and amassing of things into these five aggregates affected by clinging. Now this has been said by the Blessed One: "One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination." {341} And these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origin of suffering. {342} The removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for these five aggregates affected by clinging is the cessation of suffering.' At that point too, friends, much has been done by that bhikkhu. {343} It's like that jungle mentioned in the Vism. lol - not to stay happily sitting in but to get out of. peace, connie #99321 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: e-card from Casperia, nr Rome scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "I liked Nina's comments in #98813, especially the last sentence: 'We read what others write and then we do our best to clear up misunderstandings. We all have misunderstandings about the teachings, nobody is perfect..' "With regard to the styles, I think we all have styles that many other people have objections to and we appreciate it a lot when others don't over-react when we use some tasteless humour or our comments sound too sharp, for example:) In the same way, we can try and be understanding of others when they are long-winded, repetitive or seem to oppose what we say for the sake of it. As Nina has said, some of us are fortunate to have had good models of patience and tolerance in this regard." Scott: Thanks for indulging this 'metacommunication.' ;-) Yes, all of our styles will, eventually, be unappreciated by someone. Mine is often. I guess, by conditions, I simply don't yet appreciate the ongoing, seemingly 'political,' perpetuation of the 'you must meditate' discussion - if 'discussion' is what it can be called. Maybe I don't like the study-by-warfare methodology any more. S: "So I don't really mind very much how anyone writes to me - I'm more interested in the points of Dhamma being discussed and I understand how sensitive many of the topics here are for many people. I also like to encourage anyone, because we never know the personal circumstances or when the seeds of Dhamma planted here may bring fruit. I think that patience and metta are very important as Nina stressed." Scott: Yes, the views presented offer a chance to look into the suttas and the texts, which is a good thing. I'm not into the whole thing of 'planting seeds of Dhamma' - conditions and 'my own reasons' again. Too much like missionary work to me. And nothing that succeeds by trying to do it. Cultivating mettaa and patience are very important, as you say. Theses arise infrequently for me. ;-) If a 'meditator' demonstrated a desire to discuss points of doctrine, and not endlessly tell me to 'meditate,' it might seem different. Ah well, and boo hoo for me. I could always 'seek' seclusion, which, of course, is most meaningfully understood as having an inner location. Then I'd contribute and quit bitching. Thanks, Sarah. Sincerely, Scott. #99322 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:47 am Subject: Re: Seclusion - "off the mark" for veneration truth_aerator Hi Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarahprocterabbott@... wrote: > > > Dear Alex & all, > > From MN 77, Mahaasakuludaayi Sutta, ~Naa.namoli,Bodhi transl.: > > The Buddha: "But Udaayin, how many qualities do you see in me because of which my disciples honour, respect, revere, and venerate me, and live in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me?" > > "Venerable Sir, I see five qualities in the Blessed One because of which his disciples honour, respect, revere, and venerate him, and live in dependence on him, honouring and respecting him. What are the five? First, venerable sir, the Blessed One eats little and commends eating little.....Again, venerable sir, the Blessed One is content with any kind of robe and commends contentment with any kind of robe......content with any kind of almsfood.....content with any kind of resting place.....Again, venerable sir, the Blessed One is ***secluded and commends seclusion***; this I see as the fifth quality of the Blessed One......because of which his disciples honour, respect, revere, and venerate him, and live in dependence of him, honouring and respecting him." > > "Suppose, Udaayin, my disciples honoured, respected, revered and venerated me, and lived in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me, with the thought: 'The recluse Gotama eats little and commends eating little.' Now there are disciples of mine who live on a cupful or half a cupful of food, a bilba fruit's or half a bilva fruit's quantity of food, while I sometimes eat the full contents of my almsbowl or even more. So if my disciples honoured me.....then those disciples of mind who live on a cupful of food...should not honour, respect, revere, and venerate me for this quality, nor should they live in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me." > > S: The same follows for the example of the robe, kind of almsfood, kind of resting place and finally seclusion: > > "Suppose, Udaayin, my disciples honoured, respected, revered, and venerated me, and lived in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me, with the thought: 'The recluse Gotama is secluded and commends seclusion.' Now there are disciples of mine who are forest dwellers, dwellers in remote resting places, who live withdrawn in remote jungle-thicket resting places and return to the midst of the Sangha once each half-month for the recitation of the Paatimokkha. But I sometimes live surrounded by bhikkhus and bhikkhuniis, by men and women lay-followers, by kings and kings' ministers, by other sectarians and their disciples. So if my disciples honoured me.....with the thought: 'The recluse Gotama is secluded and commends seclusion,' then those disciples of mine who are forest dwellers....should not honour, respect.....me for this quality, nor should they live in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me. Thus Udaayin, it is not because of these five > qualities that my disciples honour, respect, revere, and venerate me, and live in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me. > > "However, Udaayin, there are five other qualities because of which my disciples honour, respect, revere and venerate me, and live in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me. What are the five?" > > S: The sutta then proceeds with a description of: > 1. The Higher Virtue > 2. Knowledge and Vision > 3. The Higher Wisdom > 4. The Four Noble Truths > 5. The Way to Develop Wholesome States, beginning with the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > in another post: S: In different contexts, seclusion carries a different meaning. Here in this sutta (and many others), I'm pretty confident that it is referring to seclusion of cittas and cetasikas, i.e to kaaya-passaddhi and citta-passaddhi. I've checked other similar passages before. >>>> Again it looks like you are attacking a straw man. Nowhere did I say that physical seclusion is be all end all. It is an important step and in the above sutta it is shown " Now there are disciples of mine who are forest dwellers, dwellers in remote resting places, who live withdrawn in remote jungle-thicket resting places and return to the midst of the Sangha once each half-month for the recitation of the Paatimokkha. ". The physical seclusion does play a good support for deep samadhi, where sati is not hindered by hindrances and manifold sense-object distractions. With metta, Alex #99323 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 8. truth_aerator Hi Sarah, Jon and all interested, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: I think this is the "bottom-line". When satipatthana arises, there is no thought about the circumstances such as whether another situation would be preferable. Visible object is just visible object and there can be awareness of it anytime. As this awareness develops, there are no more doubts about the time and place of practice. > Satipatthana development as outlined in the suttas, is best done in a seclusion, and best after Jhana, period. Otherwise even 7 years (if ever) may not be enough. I am sorry if you cannot understand that 1) There are different levels, degrees and strength of Sati & Samadhi. Weak, ordinary sati to satipatthana is like trying to dig earth with a spoon. Super strong sati based on deep samadhi is like using a powerful excavator. What took you years (if ever) can take hours. Most likely that one spoon will break under the load, like an ordinary mind may eventually submit to the wise & sweet talking con-artists (hindrances). 2) That sustained (perhaps for many hours at a time) attention (sati or manasikara) on nama/rupa is much better than a momentary sati flip floping like a monkey from one branch to another. 3) The more attention you have toward some singular thing, the less attention is available for other things. This is why full sustained attention toward one sense-door for long periods of time is much stronger and insightful than restless monkey jumping from one branch to another sort of dissipated "mindfulness". With metta, Alex #99324 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. Anatta truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Alex wrote: > >The Buddha has said: > > "If, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain covetous, with thoughts of ill will, overcome by sloth & drowsiness, restless, uncertain, angry, with soiled thoughts, with my body aroused, lazy, or unconcentrated, ' then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. > http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an10/an10. 051.than. html#turban" > > "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. > http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an04/an04. 005.than. html > > These 2 quotes clearly show that at least at some points, effort MUST BE DONE in an active (and dare I say, conventional) sense. > > Please comment, > ... > S: You often say that you accept and understand dhammas as anatta, so what exactly do you understand this "effort (that)MUST BE DONE in an active (and dare I say, conventional) sense" to be? How do you understand it to come about exactly? If you start using vague terms like 'meditation' in your answer, please spell out exactly what you are referring to in terms of dhammas that are anatta. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > Hi Sarah, Scott and all interested. Please explain your view on anatta. Do you view our situation ability to control to be like a rock falling down the mountain? In that case it would be pointless to talk about volition, effort, doing or even Kamma, since what intentional action (kamma), and effort can a rock do (to stop or accelerate the falling)? Note: considering, wise attention, reading, satipatthana IS DOING. In suttas like MN20 (and many others) Buddha did teach that "He is then called a monk with mastery over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks whatever thought he wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he doesn't. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and through the right penetration of conceit has made an end of suffering and stress." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html With metta, Alex #99325 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah Misunderstood Vanapattha Suttam: Re: More on Seclusion in Jungle Thickets sarahprocter... Hi Suan, I'm glad to see your interest. --- On Sat, 18/7/09, abhidhammika wrote: >I am afraid that you have misunderstood the message of Vanapattha suttam. The forests in Section 191 and 192 are not conducive to the arising of sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi, and sammaadi.t.thi. So, the Buddha instructed the monks to leave those unbeneficial and unfavourable types of forests. But, the forests in Section 193 and 194 are conducive to the arising of sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi and sammaadi.t.thi. So, the Buddha instructed the monks to remain in those beneficial and favourable types of forests. .... Sarah: I don't know if you're suggesting there was some significant difference in the forests, Suan? The point of the sutta as I understand it is that whether living in a forest, a village, a town, a city or with a particular person, with or without plentiful necessities, it is the development of satipatthana and the destruction of the taints that counts. That's why I said there was not much use in seclusion in the forest without the development of sati-sampaja~n~naa. The same would apply to the village, town, city, person or any other circumstance. .... >Please remember that the Buddha was not finding fault with physical seclusion as such. ... Sarah: There has been no suggestion (from me or anyone else) that he was. At the same time, physical seclusion, villages and cities are not given as conditions for enlightenment. I'm not sure what "mindless purposeful action" which is "ideologically motivated" is, so I'll leave that aside that delicacy, thanks Suan:-). Metta, Sarah >S: Not much use in the Seclusion of the Jungle Thickets for those of other views or even for the Buddha's followers without any sati-sampaja~ n~naa > > From MN 17 "Vanapattha Sutta", ~Naa.namoli/ Bodhi transl: > > The Buddha: "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives in some jungle thicket. While he is living there his unestablished mindfulness does not become established, his unconcentrated mind does not become concentrated, his undestroyed taints do not come to destruction, he does not attain the unattained supreme security from bondage; and also the requisites of life that should be obtained by one gone forth - robes, almsfood, resting place, and medicinal requisites - are hard to come by. The bhikkhu should consider thus: 'I am living in this jungle thicket. While I am living here my unestablished mindfulness does not become established. ....I do not attain the unattained supreme security from bondage; and also the requisites of life...are hard to come by.' That bhikkhu should depart from that jungle thicket that very night or that very day; he should not continue living there." ========== #99326 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi Sarah, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Alex & all, > > --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Alex wrote: > >When you sit down and close your eyes, you are temporarily relinquishing sights. When you sit in a place outside of smells and activity, you are relinquishing smells and things 'to do'. > .... > S: And then of course you could relinquish food, so there was no >taste as well:) Food is necessary for survival, but even here the Monks have rules to eat once or twice before noon. Entertainments and un-needed distractions are not needed and often are lust/hate/delusion producing distractions for non-ariyans (especially prior to Anagami stage - but then high level aryians probably wouldn't visit these places in the first place). > > From MN 36 Mahaasaccaka Sutta, ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi transl: > > "....They take food once a day, once every two days...once every severn days, and so on up to once every fortnight; they dwell pursuing the practice of taking food at stated intervals." > > "But do they subsist on so little, Aggivessana?" > > "No, Master Gotama, sometimes they consume excellent hard food, eat excellent soft food, taste excellent delicacies, drink excellent drinks. Thereby they again regain their strength, fortify themselves, and become fat." > [S: the same could be said about when one opens ones eyes again and so on!] > NO SARAH Food sustain the body as is necessery for survival (in order tobve able to develop bhavana N8P). Entertainments, shows, strip clubs, sight-seeings are not. > The Buddha says a little later: > > "What you have just spoken of as development of body, Aggivessana, is not development of body according to the Dhamma in the Noble One's Discipline. Since you do not know what development of body is, how could you know what development of mind is?...." > > "And how, Aggivessana, is one developed in body (bhaavitakaayo) and developed in mind (bhaavitacitto)? Here Aggivessana, pleasant feeling arises in a well-taught noble disciple. Touched by that pleasant feeling, he does not lust after pleasure or continue to lust after pleasure. That pleasant feeling of his ceases. With the cessation of the pleasant feeling, painful feeling arises. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, and lament, he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. When that pleasant feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his mind and remain because body is developed.* And when that painful feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his mind and remain because mind is developed.* Anyone in whom, in this double manner, arisen pleasant feeling does not invade his mind and remian because body is developed, and arisen painful feeling does not invade his mind and remain because mind is developed, is > thus developed in body and developed in mind." > > * S: So the references here to "developed in body" have nothing to do with physical seclusion, to closing one's eyes, avoiding smells or tastes or sounds or anything else. In fact, as the commentary note the translators include states, it is "development of body" in this context is insight and "development of mind" is concentration. > > We need to consider the words carefully in each sutta, I find. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > But this development in this case IS IN SECLUSION. Buddha and many monks striving for Arhatship didn't do it by spending time in kitchens, surfing, or doing un-needed things. With metta, Alex #99327 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Jon, Howard, Alex & all, > > === > >>J: The physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by the > > Buddha, as far as I know. > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----- > >H: Well, Jon, we must have read different nikayas. > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ > .... > S: Another quote from MN, this time MN65 "Bhaddaali Sutta", ~Naa.ma,oli/Bodhi transl: > > "Here, Bhaddali, some bhikkhu does not fulfil the training in the Teacher's Dispensation. He considers thus: 'Suppose I were to resort to a secluded resting place: the forest, the root of a tree, a mountain, a ravine, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle thicket, an open space, a heap of straw - perhaps I might realise a superhuman state, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones.' He resorts to some such secluded resting-place. While he lives thus withdrawn, the Teacher censures him, wise companions in the holy life who have made investigation censure him, gods censure him, and he censures himself. Being censured in this way by the Teacher, by wise companions in the holy life, by gods, and by himself, he realises no superhuman state, no distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. Why is that? That is how it is with one who does not fulfil the training in the Teacher's Dispensation." > Of course physical seclusion without citta-viveka and right views is not good. But I am not suggesting this. I am suggesting the importance of seclusion WITH right views. > S: Of course there is no censure for the bhikkhu who fulfiles the training in such places. > > Metta, > > Sarah Good to hear that, Sarah. WM, Alex #99328 From: A T Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:15 am Subject: Re: Concentration for mindfulness. .. truth_aerator Hi Scott, KenH, Sarah, Jon and all interested, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Alex: > > A few rhetorical comments regarding: > > A: "Eventually, when the conditions are right, I hope to be a perfect contemplative..." > > Scott: This 'hope', unfortunately, is why one who holds it will not >succeed. Such a project is founded on craving. You are putting too much importance to precise words and attack me merely on the words used- rather than on substance. If awakening is to ever occur, enough effort (viriya) among other factors has to be mobilized. In the begining stages there is no way to bypass the craving to be freed. Craving can and should be used properly until one lets go of it (Bhikkhuni sutta by Ananda) >I'd suggest that such a view pays lip service to an understanding of >conditions and anatta, merely using the words in different And I'd suggest you pay more to the experience itself rather than talk about concepts of [no matter how ultimate]. All the talk about "ultimate reality" or "the way things are" is just that TALK, WORDS, CONCEPTS. >combinations, but the essence of the writing - an ongoing >misunderstanding of these things - continues to show through. How do you know? You misinterpret my words and then attack that misinterpretation of your own making. Of course nothing that I say, short of repeating ad-verbatum the party line will get you satisfied. > A: "The importance of concentration for deeper and subtler mindful >awareness..." > > Scott: I'm afraid I'm not much impressed with the contents of your >prose here, Alex. And I am not impressed with your straw-man attacks. >As you begin your short essay, you refer to 'deeper and subtler >mindful >awareness.' I would suggest that you have made this whole >thing up. And how do I know that YOU aren't making these teachings up? > You are not clear, when you refer to 'concentration,' as to what >mental factor you are describing. Samadhi and all factors it is contained. > You are not clear as to what mental factor you refer to as >'awareness.' Sati, manasikara are two prime examples. >Knowing your bent, you're likely only referring to common, Mind reading Scott comes again. Invents some gibberish and then proceeds to attack it ignoring the fact that all you are attacking is your own fantasies. >everyday, conventional experiences, mistaken as self, How do you know? Do you read minds? >You've gotten yourself down a twisted path, Alex. And how do you know that you aren't? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > A: "...Our usual attention is dissipated out over 6 'fields' so to say. >It is impossible to give simultaneously 100% of bare attention to all 6. But when you start to let go off attention for the 5 sense objects you can have more and more attention freeing up for 1 object, one sense. Rather than attention being dissipated > around the large field, you make it be mindful and aware of one thing but with greater penetration into finer and finer detail. First you let go off thoughts about past & the future and focus on present moment bare awareness. Then you switch off thinking and silently just be aware of nama-rupa happeninging now. Then you are aware only of the object of concentration, example the breath. You pay attention at air making contact with the nose and the feeling that is caused..." > > Scott: This too is fraught with loose thinking and popular psychology. Abhidhamma precision doesn't allow for the sloppy notion that 'our usual attention is dissipated out over 6 fields.' One moment of consciousness at a time; one object at a time. It only seems to be as you describe, also a function of dhammaa. > What prevents there to be a long stream of cittas focusing IN DEPTH on ONE ASPECT OF EXPERIENCE? Even the Abhidhamma masters, the real ones, don't deny deep Jhana or Vipassana practice (ie Mahasi Sayadaw's vipassana). > Again, what is 'attention?' Sati, manasikara i.e. >>>Scott>>>> >The language - 'you make it be mindful,' 'you let go of thoughts,' 'you switch off thinking' - demonstrates clearly that this is merely thinking about a self with an ability to direct things. The instruction 'to silently just be aware of nama-rupa happening now' is meaningless. I think Sarah already clarified the way in which you misunderstand the term 'naama-ruupa.' When you say 'feeling' do you refer to pleasant, painful, or neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling? Do you refer to body sense? > > The rest of this section of your essay is more of the same. These are rhetorical questions, Alex. Please don't try to explain yourself to me. ;-) > A: "...What I am talking about is mobilizing all observation and awareness resources to one sense door only, in order to see it better with more attention. Then isolating that experience and going deeper to the bottom of it and sustaining undivided attention for as long time as possible. Obviously this degree of awareness simply cannot happen during daily life activities, such as cooking where 5 senses function. This is why one needs to sit down with closed eyes in a fairly secluded place.You sacrifice the quantity & diversity of multiple sense data for quality and deepness of one channel and one small area..." > > Scott: You continue to repeat the same views, unaffected by any cogent demonstration to the contrary. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Same could be said about you. You and some others, misinterpret what I say and then attack the misinterpretation of your own making. > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Scott, your posts show that no matter what the suttas say, you will always translate and re-interpret them in a certain, recent, narrow view. These views fit neither with the suttas, nor VsM. You, and some others, usually pick up some minor issue, go off a tangent and make a big issue out of it (usually by attacking a strawman) and safely bypass the main message while happily feeling of being right. :) The suttas, Patis, Vim, VsM do often talk about deliberate practice. Maybe my IQ is too low but I simply cannot even approach comprehending how can messages about "having gone into wilderness, an empty cave, root of the tree, a heap of straw, a forest, a charnel ground, etc etc" can refer to things other than physical seclusion (DONE RIGHT, with citta viveka for real results) of which the above places are specific instances. I simply can't comprehend all the avoidance of clear instructions about going into solitude, crossing ones legs and doing anapanasati - for example. Even VsM talks about doing certain things for certain results. Nor I can see how all DSG'ers who value VsM can disregard entire chapters (ex: on Ch II, Austerities & Ch III, Samadhi) and really obfuscate the carefully selected passages on panna - that really ought to be approached as part of entire N8P, not N7P nor even worse, 1fold path. According to various suttas, panna is fullfilled only in dependences on Sila & Samadhi. To try to jump strait to panna is like trying to build a 3rd floor without finishing, or even starting the first two. At best it will never get higher than the first floor. Of course the psychological safety net is build into this sort teaching by talking about "the lack of accumulations" so on and so forth - while avoiding the obvious reason. I am sorry if you cannot understand that 1) There are different levels, degrees and strength of Sati & Samadhi. Weak, ordinary sati to satipatthana is like trying to dig earth with a spoon. Super strong sati based on deep samadhi is like using a powerful excavator. What took you years (if ever) can take hours. Most likely that one spoon will break under the load, like an ordinary mind may eventually submit to the wise & sweet talking con-artists (hindrances). 2) That sustained (perhaps for many hours at a time) attention (sati or manasikara) on nama/rupa is much better than a momentary sati flip floping like a monkey from one branch to another. 3) The more attention you have toward some thing, the less attention is available for other things. This is why full sustained attention toward one sense-door way for long periods of time is much stronger than restless monkey jumping from one branch to another sort of "attention". With metta, Alex #99330 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation nilovg Dear Sarah, Have a good journey to Australia and Fiji again. Must be rather heavy to you, all this traveling around. Nina. Op 18-jul-2009, om 16:16 heeft sarahprocterabbott@... het volgende geschreven: > still trying to catch up with the back-log before leaving again > tomorrow:). #99331 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:55 pm Subject: On Samadhi & the required intensity/duration truth_aerator Hello All, While I do agree that samadhi/jhana is not a singular block, but a series of special cittas that rise & fall one by one (see MN111), it does not refute that Samadhi, or at least preparation toward it, can last up to 7 days at a time in a single session. "For seven days I sat in one spot, absorbed in rapture & bliss. On the eighth, I stretched out my legs, having burst the mass of darkness. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thig/thig.03.02.than.html Note: Nun Uttama sat in one spot for 7 days! She was REALLY going for it and it is something hard to do unless you enter deep & peaceful jhana and resolve on sitting for that long. The peace that is required is quite strong. Samadhi, jhana, or even "satipatthana", as part of N8P, can last in one session up to that long - and no wonder that seclusion may be required (just try to sit motionless in a public place for 7 days, and you'll know why it is not ideal place :) ) . The above is suggestive of the intensity and duration of the session that may be required, if all else fails. Please don't disregard the message as "It was her accumulations". What makes you think that your path will be easier or that your path requires LESS sacrifice and effort? It may be the case that Harder, not easier bhavana is required for those who do not have already well developed 5 faculties. All the stories about people achieving awakening when watching flame going out, or heron grabbing fish, or listening to the discourse, obviously were applicable to highly developed monks/nuns who had very developed 5 faculties (saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi, panna) by that time and needed only a very brief and precise guidance. It is clear that we aren't as well endowed as them because many of us would have achieve arahatship 100 times. You can read Bahiya's instruction 10000x times and not even reach stream-entry. For all we know, Bahiya could have been doing something close to Buddhist Jhana for years until he met the Buddha and heard that story. I really like an old quote by Phil: "And as always I say that I think it seems somewhat contradictory for people to say that in this day and age people don't have enough wisdom to understand suttas on their own and yet can consider those arahant-while-cooking sort of anecdotes relevant.) " An important reason why we don't get Awakened is presence of a lot of defilements such as lust&restlessness which blocks the growth of wisdom. This is why samatha is important. It removes the lust and other hindrances that hinder wisdom from growing. With metta, Alex #99332 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth nilovg Dear Alex, In the kitchen, yes, possible. Op 18-jul-2009, om 20:00 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > But this development in this case IS IN SECLUSION. Buddha and many > monks striving for Arhatship didn't do it by spending time in > kitchens, surfing, or doing un-needed things. ------- N: Revisit Connies posts on Sisters. Therigathaa: CANTO I -- PSALMS OF SINGLE VERSES I -- Verse uttered by a certain Sister, a Bhikkhunii of Name Unknown. "Sleep softly, little Sturdy, take thy rest At ease, wrapt in the robe thyself hast made. Stilled are the passions that would rage within, Withered as potherbs in the oven dried." ------- Reborn again in heaven till this Buddha-dispensation, she was finally born in a great nobleman's family at Vesaalii. From the sturdy build of her body they called her Sturdykin. She became the devoted wife of a young noble. When the Master came to Vesaalii, she was convinced by his teaching, and became a lay-disciple. Anon, hearing the Great Pajaapatii the Elder preaching the Doctrine, the wish arose in her to leave the world, and she told this to her husband. He would not consent; so she went on performing her duties, reflecting on the sweetness of the doctrine, and living devoted to insight. ------- N: Developing insight during one's daily tasks. -------- Text: Then, one day in the kitchen, while the curry was cooking, a mighty flame of fire shot up, and burnt all the food with much crackling. She, watching it, made it a basis for rapt meditation on the utter impermanence of all things. Thereby she was established in the Fruition of the Path of No-Return. Thenceforth she wore no more jewels and ornaments. When her husband asked her the reason, she told him how incapable she felt of living a domestic life. So he brought her, as Visaakha brought Dhammadinnaa, *79 with a large following, to Great Pajaapatii the Gotamid, and said: 'Let the reverend Sisters give her ordination.' And Pajaapatii did so, and showed her the Master; and the Master, emphasizing, as was his custom, the visible basis whereby she had attained, spoke the verse above. Now, when she had attained Arahantship, the Sister repeated that verse in her exultation, wherefore this verse became her verse. ****** (end quote). Nina. #99334 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > In the kitchen, yes, possible. > Op 18-jul-2009, om 20:00 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > But this development in this case IS IN SECLUSION. Buddha and many > > monks striving for Arhatship didn't do it by spending time in > > kitchens, surfing, or doing un-needed things. > ------- > N: Revisit Connies posts on Sisters. Therigathaa: CANTO I -- PSALMS > OF SINGLE VERSES > > I -- Verse uttered by a certain Sister, a Bhikkhunii of Name Unknown. > > "Sleep softly, little Sturdy, take thy rest > At ease, wrapt in the robe thyself hast made. > Stilled are the passions that would rage within, > Withered as potherbs in the oven dried." > > ------- > > Reborn again in heaven till this Buddha-dispensation, she was finally > born in a great nobleman's family at Vesaalii. From the sturdy build > of her body they called her Sturdykin. She became the devoted wife of > a young noble. When the Master came to Vesaalii, she was convinced by > his teaching, and became a lay-disciple. Anon, hearing the Great > Pajaapatii the Elder preaching the Doctrine, the wish arose in her to > leave the world, and she told this to her husband. He would not > consent; so she went on performing her duties, reflecting on the > sweetness of the doctrine, and living devoted to insight. > ------- > N: Developing insight during one's daily tasks. > -------- > > Text: Then, one day in the kitchen, while the curry was cooking, a > mighty flame of fire shot up, and burnt all the food with much > crackling. She, watching it, made it a basis for rapt meditation on > the utter impermanence of all things. Thereby she was established in > the Fruition of the Path of No-Return. Thenceforth she wore no more > jewels and ornaments. When her husband asked her the reason, she told > him how incapable she felt of living a domestic life. > > So he brought her, as Visaakha brought Dhammadinnaa, *79 with a large > following, to Great Pajaapatii the Gotamid, and said: 'Let the > reverend Sisters give her ordination.' And Pajaapatii did so, and > showed her the Master; and the Master, emphasizing, as was his > custom, the visible basis whereby she had attained, spoke the verse > above. > > Now, when she had attained Arahantship, the Sister repeated that > verse in her exultation, wherefore this verse became her verse. > ****** > (end quote). > Nina. Dear Nina, Thank you for your quote. I believe that she had great accumulations and she needed only a little bit more, a feather that broke a camels back. She may have had great samadhi-indriya, few hindrances and didn't need to develop samatha much more. What about us? With metta, Alex #99335 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:12 pm Subject: Talk on Nimitta, Samatha, Vipassana truth_aerator Dear Nina and all interested, How does one see Nimitta? Can nimitta be seen in satipatthana? If so, what is it? What does one do with it? How is it properly grasped? With metta, Alex #99336 From: westbankj@... Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... farrel.kevin In a message dated 7/17/2009 6:13:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: KH: Yes, the teaching of conditioned paramattha dhammas explains how there can be a world without self. It leaves no way open for some subtle form of self. Therefore the petulant view 'if I can't exist then nor can anything else" has the added bonus of leaving that way open. Ken H Hi, Ken. Yes, absolutely. Thanks for the comment! All the best, Kevin #99337 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:12 pm Subject: 1000 Aeons! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Remembering all Details of a 1000 Universal Cycles! Once when the Venerable Anuruddha was dwelling at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anāthapindika 's Park, a number of Bhikkhus went to the Venerable Anuruddha and exchanged polite greetings with him. Then they sat down and asked the Ven. Anuruddha : Venerable Sir: What has the Venerable Anuruddha developed and cultivated so that he has attained to his famous greatness of direct knowledge? He answered: It is, friends, because I have developed and cultivated these four Foundations of Awareness that I have won great direct knowledge. What four? Here, friends, I dwell constantly contemplating upon: 1: The body only as a frame of transient form, neither as I, me, mine, nor a self... 2: The feelings only as passing sense reactions, neither as I, me, mine, nor a self... 3: The mind only as habitual & transient moods, neither as I, me, mine, nor any self... 4: All phenomena only as momentary mental states, not as any real static existents... while eager, clearly comprehending, and acutely aware, by that removing all desire and therefore also all frustration rooted in this world! It is thus, friends, because I have developed and cultivated these Four Foundations of Awareness, that I have attained to greatness of direct knowledge. Furthermore, friends, it is indeed, because I have developed and completely refined these 4 Foundations of Awareness, that I clearly & easily can remember all the historical details of a Thousand Aeons ... !!! Comments: In Buddhist cosmology an Aeon (kappa) means a universal cycle, where space first expands, then stands almost still, then contracts and lastly implodes usually caused by extreme heat. This is said to happen, when 7 suns, due to the contraction of space, have come so close, that they can be seen from earth. All the oceans will have evaporated, when 5 suns can be seen! It is worth noting that this non-steady-state model of the universe described in detail by the Buddha ~ 2500 years ago, first was "rediscovered" in the 1920ties as the Big Bang theory... <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikāya. [V:301-2] section 52: Anuruddha. Thread 11: A Thousand Aeons! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net 1000 Aeons! #99338 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:22 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 8. nilovg Dear Alex, yea, yea, flipflopping, beautiful reminder. Op 18-jul-2009, om 19:53 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > That sustained (perhaps for many hours at a time) attention (sati > or manasikara) on nama/rupa is much better than a momentary sati > flip floping like a monkey from one branch to another. --------- N: Yes, I appreciate any reminder, thank you. Flipflopping, because of our defilements, accumulated for sooo long. We have to be very sincere, the perfection of truthfulness is indispensable. If the defilements are not known as mere dhammas, conditioned elements, they cannot be eradicated. Yes, through jhaana they can be suppressed, but they arise again when one has emerged from jhaana. You mentioned a solution to this flipflopping (O, how often do we flipflop, even right now!). -------- A: The more attention you have toward some singular thing, the less attention is available for other things. This is why full sustained attention toward one sense-door for long periods of time is much stronger and insightful than restless monkey jumping from one branch to another sort of dissipated "mindfulness". ------ N: The question is how. Seeing, for example arises, but it is produced by kamma, it is vipaakacitta. How could 'we' fulfill the task of past kamma and produce seeing in order to be aware of it? It arises and then falls away, it is only there for a moment. When it presents itself it has been conditioned already, it cannot be otherwise. It falls away and only the nimitta, the sign of it, remains. Whatever comes, let it come, and then the true nature of realities can gradually be penetrated. When we think hard about seeing, try to concentrate on it, it has gone already. And then there is bound to be attachment to seeing or to visible object. Also this is a reality, a dhamma and it should not be ignored. It is a dhamma, not a person. We can say: there is no self, but what is it that we take for self: citta, cetasika and ruupa. When listening, discussing, there can be more understanding of citta, cetasika and ruupa, and it is understanding that performs its function. It cannot develop rapidly, and there cannot be many moments of sati and pa~n~naa. This is just as it is. Let sati and pa~n~naa perform their own functions, no 'we' interfering. Then there is a danger that one makes oneself believe that there is a lot of sati, for many moments. Mindfulness and understanding of what, of which reality exactly? This is what one should find out all the time. Nina. #99339 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth nilovg Dear Alex, Op 18-jul-2009, om 23:34 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > I believe that she had great accumulations and she needed only a > little bit more, a feather that broke a camels back. She may have > had great samadhi-indriya, few hindrances and didn't need to > develop samatha much more. What about us? ------- N: Great accumulations of pa~n~naa. It is pa~n~naa that eradicates defilements. But she can be an example for us. Nina. #99340 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk on Nimitta, Samatha, Vipassana nilovg Dear Alex, Op 19-jul-2009, om 3:12 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > How does one see Nimitta? > > Can nimitta be seen in satipatthana? If so, what is it? What does > one do with it? How is it properly grasped? ------- N: Nimitta has different meanings in different contexts. Sa"nkhaara nimitta refers to each reality that arises and falls away very rapidly. It seems to stay, but only the nimitta, the sign of it remains. Only nibbaana is animitta, devoid of nimitta. When you speak of seeing nimitta, it seems a different matter to me. Someone who is about to die may have a nimitta of his next rebirth. But when satipatthaana is developed there is no seeing of nimitta, but there is awareness of the nimitta of reality. Another meaning. Nina. #99341 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk on Nimitta, Samatha, Vipassana upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Alex) - In a message dated 7/19/2009 4:30:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Alex, Op 19-jul-2009, om 3:12 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > How does one see Nimitta? > > Can nimitta be seen in satipatthana? If so, what is it? What does > one do with it? How is it properly grasped? ------- N: Nimitta has different meanings in different contexts. Sa"nkhaara nimitta refers to each reality that arises and falls away very rapidly. It seems to stay, but only the nimitta, the sign of it remains. Only nibbaana is animitta, devoid of nimitta. When you speak of seeing nimitta, it seems a different matter to me. Someone who is about to die may have a nimitta of his next rebirth. But when satipatthaana is developed there is no seeing of nimitta, but there is awareness of the nimitta of reality. Another meaning. Nina. ================================== What is called a sa"nkhaara nimitta seems to me to be a faithful mental replica of a just-seen dhamma that serves as a (normally adequate) experiential stand-in for the dhamma. It seems to be a perfect mental "photocopy" (or what I've called a "fresh memory") that is the closest a mental construct can come to the actual dhamma represented. Does this capture the idea, Nina? With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99342 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:12 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Talk on Nimitta, Samatha, Vipassana nilovg Hi Howard, Op 19-jul-2009, om 14:45 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What is called a sa"nkhaara nimitta seems to me to be a faithful > mental replica of a just-seen dhamma that serves as a (normally > adequate) > experiential stand-in for the dhamma. It seems to be a perfect > mental "photocopy" > (or what I've called a "fresh memory") that is the closest a mental > construct can come to the actual dhamma represented. Does this > capture the idea, > Nina? ------- N: Yes, nimitta pertains to the dhamma that has fallen away, not to the dhamma that has not yet fallen away. For example, a nimitta of visible object that is experienced in a mind-door process that follws upon a sense-door process. Also when seeing is object of awareness, it has just fallen away, but there is a nimitta of seeing. I do not think of a photocopy of seeing, that seems strange. There is a nimitta of each of the five khandhas, that is sankhaara nimitta. I posted before about nimitta: ------- Nina. #99343 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:43 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (24-25) nilovg Dear friends, sutta 24: Walshe DN 33.1.11(24) 'Four ways of undertaking Dhamma: There is the way that is (a) painful in the present and brings painful future results (dukkha-vipaaka'm), (b) painful in the present and brings pleasant future results (sukha-vipaaka'm), (c) pleasant in the present and brings painful future results, and (d) pleasant in the present and brings pleasant future results. (Cattaari dhammasamaadaanaani : atthaavuso, dhammasamaadaana.m paccuppannadukkha~nceva aayati~nca dukkhavipaaka.m. Atthaavuso, dhammasamaadaana.m paccuppannadukkha.m aayati.m sukhavipaaka.m. Atthaavuso, dhammasamaadaana.m paccuppannasukha.m aayati.m dukkhavipaaka.m. Atthaavuso, dhammasamaadaana.m paccuppannasukha~nceva aayati~nca sukhavipaaka.m.) ---------- N: The first undertaking of Dhamma is the practice of an ascetic. The subco states that it is suffering at present as well as in the future. It brings the suffering of an unhappy rebirth (apaaya) and the suffering connected with the cycle (va.t.tadukkha). N: Ascetical practices cause bodily suffering and they result in an unhappy rebirth. They do not lead to the goal: liberation from the cycle of birth and death. ------- The second kind of undertaking of Dhamma is sorrowful at present and brings happiness in the future. The Co: Someone who has strong defilements and is not able to attain arahatship, practises the pure holy life while crying, with tearful face. N: Although it is extremely difficult for him and causes suffering, he still perseveres and this will lead to the goal in the future. ------ As to the third way: which is pleasant at present and brings an unhappy result, the Co states that he falls down because of sensepleasures. The subco: he has enjoyment of sensepleasures (kaamaparibhogo). -------- As to the fourth way: this is undertaken with happiness and gives a happy result in the future. The Co : Also when he does not obtain the four requisites he practises the holy life, endowed with happiness because of jhaana and vipassanaa. The subco paraphrases the word pi, also, : when he obtains (the requisites) [or does not]. N: He has equanimity about the requisites of robes, food, dwelling and medicine. His practice will bring a happy result. ---------- N: As we have seen, the second way of undertaking Dhamma is with dukkha, but it leads to the goal. In Sutta 21, there are four ways of progress: (a)painful progress with slow comprehension, (b) painful progress with quick comprehension, (c) pleasant progress with slow comprehension, (d) pleasant progress with quick comprehension. Because of accumulated defilements the progress or practice is dukkha, painful. Saariputta attained following the mode of progress that was pleasant with swift intuition. Moggallaana had accumulated strong defilements and these were the condition for painful progress. This teaches us that even when we have many defilements, satipatthaana can still be developed and the goal can eventually be reached. In this sutta (24) the fourth way of undertaking Dhamma is with happiness at present. This concerns someone with understanding who can face the vicissitudes of life. No matter whether he receives many or few requisites, this depends on kamma that produces vipaaka and it cannot be altered. He is patient and he can receive any kind of vipaaka. ------------- Pali co: Dhammasamaadaanesu pa.thama.m acelakapa.tipadaa. Dutiya.m tibbakilesassa arahatta.m gahetu.m asakkontassa assumukhassaapi rudato parisuddhabrahmacariyacara.na.m. Tatiya.m kaamesu paatabyataa. Catuttha.m cattaaro paccaye alabhamaanassaapi jhaanavipassanaavasena sukhasama"ngino saasanabrahmacariya.m. ***************** sutta 25: Walshe DN 33.1.11(25) 'Four divisions of Dhamma: morality, concentration, wisdom, liberation. (Cattaaro dhammakkhandhaa: siilakkhandho, samaadhikkhandho, pa~n~naakkhandho, vimuttikkhandho.) -------- N: As regards siilakkhandho, the Co explains that this refers to excellent siila, to siila of the level of phala, fruition, phalasiila. Evenso samaadhi, pa~n~naa and vimutti (liberation), these refer to phalacitta. The subco states that with regard to the division of liberation, vimuttikhandha, also right thinking, right effort and right mindfulness are included. N: Defilements are eradicated by the lokuttara magga-citta, and this citta is succeeded by the phala-citta, fruition consciousness. In the case of arahatship, siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa and freedom, vimutti, have reached fulfillment. This is the highest peace. -------------- Pali co: Dhammakkhandhaati ettha gu.na.t.tho khandha.t.tho. Siilakkhandhoti siilagu.no. Ettha ca phalasiila.m adhippeta.m. Sesapadesupi eseva nayo. Iti catuusupi .thaanesu phalameva vutta.m. --------- Nina. #99344 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Nina (and Alex), Regarding: N: "In the kitchen, yes, possible...Developing insight during one's daily tasks..." Scott: When the four foundations of mindfulness are listed, they are '...contemplating the body as a body...contemplating feelings as feelings...contemplating mind as mind...contemplating mind objects as mind objects...' I really don't see, from studying the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta, where these 'contemplations' have to be done in 'the forest' or at 'the root of a tree.' Just the fact that 'the four postures' are mentioned as one aspect of contemplating the body as a body suggests otherwise. And that all three feelings, all possible sorts of consciousness and mental factors, as well as all sorts of mind-objects are included. No, this can occur anywhere the conditions are conducive, including, but definitely not exclusively, at the root of a tree or in the forest. Sincerely, Scott. #99345 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/19/2009 11:25:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes with regard to cultivating insight: No, this can occur anywhere the conditions are conducive, including, but definitely not exclusively, at the root of a tree or in the forest. =============================== I agree with that. As regards jhana cultivation, however, the greater the physical seclusion the better. However, in the rare case that sufficiently powerful mental conditions are in place, jhana could even be entered in the midst of an environment that is far from conducive - but this would be most unusual. Typically, it would only be so for one who is already quite adept. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99346 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "I agree with that. As regards jhana cultivation, however, the greater the physical seclusion the better. However, in the rare case that sufficiently powerful mental conditions are in place, jhana could even be entered in the midst of an environment that is far from conducive - but this would be most unusual. Typically, it would only be so for one who is already quite adept." Scott: I'm not speaking of jhaana cultivation, Howard. I find that this discussion is cluttered with constant references to jhaana. Satipa.t.thaana is not jhaana. Satipa.t.thaana in relation to jhaana-citta would take jhaana-citta as object, and, in this case, jhaana-citta is not different from any other potential object of satipa.t.thaana. This is the point I'm making. Yes, there is such a thing as the cultivation of the jhaana attainmenmts. These are not relevant here. And whether jhaana can be entered into in a non-conducive environment is doubtful, since 'non-conducive' would apply to conditions not conducive to entering jhaana. Momentary concenration as a part of a kusala moment called 'satipa.t.thaana' is another thing. Please stay calm, Howard. I'm just disagreeing with you're 'agreement', which, as usual, isn't agreement. ;-) (See, winky guy.) Sincerely, Scott. #99347 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:37 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 8. truth_aerator Dear Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > yea, yea, flipflopping, beautiful reminder. > Op 18-jul-2009, om 19:53 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > That sustained (perhaps for many hours at a time) attention (sati > > or manasikara) on nama/rupa is much better than a momentary sati > > flip floping like a monkey from one branch to another. > --------- > N: Yes, I appreciate any reminder, thank you. Flipflopping, because > of our defilements, accumulated for sooo long. Dear Nina, I am sorry if my statement above offended you. >We have to be very sincere, the perfection of truthfulness is >indispensable. Flip floping between senses is my problem as well. I am not perfect. Also feeling of emotional pain for the Dhamma, when some people say certain things. If the > defilements are not known as mere dhammas, conditioned elements, they > cannot be eradicated. Yes, through jhaana they can be suppressed, but > they arise again when one has emerged from jhaana. > You mentioned a solution to this flipflopping (O, how often do we > flipflop, even right now!). > -------- > A: The more attention you have toward some singular thing, the less > attention is available for other things. This is why full sustained > attention toward one sense-door for long periods of time is much > stronger and insightful than restless monkey jumping from one branch > to another sort of dissipated "mindfulness". > ------ > N: The question is how. Seeing, for example arises, but it is > produced by kamma, it is vipaakacitta. I disagree strongly with what you are assertine. While it is true that kamma caused us to be reborn in this or that plane that limits the choice, you seem to put too much emphasis to determinism. While it is true that in Hell one can't choose to see pleasant things and in Heaven one's seeing is mostly limited to those heavenly things... In many cases (ex: human & rupa planes) It is possible to remove manasikara toward the eye (or other sense doors) in deep meditation so not to see things for a set time. This is what the Buddha did in DN16 for example so that he neither saw nor heard the lightning and someone who has died. Nina, is manasikara totally predermined? Is there predestination (even billions of years ago) that at this moment Alex would move the eyeball here or there? >How could 'we' fulfill the task of past kamma and produce seeing in >order to be aware of it? It It is caused by conditions that are made now. IMHO, Kammavipaka should NOT be viewed as fatalism "what happens happens, nothing can be done. " If, G-d forbid, strong intention to commit heineous crime arises. Should a person put utmost effort at cutting this thought out? Of course! What did Nun Uttama did sitting for 7 days in one session? Why was it alright for her and it is not alright for us to have mini session of that (most of us can't sit 7hours, let alone 7 days) With metta, Alex #99348 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Nina (and Alex), > > Regarding: > > N: "In the kitchen, yes, possible...Developing insight during one's daily tasks..." > > Scott: When the four foundations of mindfulness are listed, they are '...contemplating the body as a body...contemplating feelings as feelings...contemplating mind as mind...contemplating mind objects as mind objects...' > > I really don't see, from studying the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta, where these 'contemplations' have to be done in 'the forest' or at 'the root of a tree.' Just the fact that 'the four postures' are mentioned as one aspect of contemplating the body as a body suggests otherwise. And that all three feelings, all possible sorts of consciousness and mental factors, as well as all sorts of mind-objects are included. No, this can occur anywhere the conditions are conducive, including, but definitely not exclusively, at the root of a tree or in the forest. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Hi Scott, But the sutta itself says: "Herein, monks, a monk, having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree or to an empty place, sits down with his legs crossed, keeps his body erect and his mindfulness alert." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.nysa.html With metta, Alex #99349 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Scott - > > In a message dated 7/19/2009 11:25:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > scduncan@... writes with regard to cultivating insight: > > No, this can occur anywhere the conditions are conducive, including, but > definitely not exclusively, at the root of a tree or in the forest. > =============================== > I agree with that. > As regards jhana cultivation, however, the greater the physical > seclusion the better. However, in the rare case that sufficiently powerful mental > conditions are in place, jhana could even be entered in the midst of an > environment that is far from conducive - but this would be most unusual. > Typically, it would only be so for one who is already quite adept. > > With metta, > Howard Hello Scott, Howard and all interested I agree 100% with Howard. A skillful meditator, especially if an Anagami and higher, generally speaking, can enter Jhana or do satipatthana whenever and wherever he wants - even in a marketplace or a strip club. But for most worldlings those places would be objective support for hindrances to grab and cause strong defilements to arise This is why the Buddha stressed the secluded places. Just like you can't prepare well for final exams when people are running and screaming around you. Same is with bhavana, satipatthana, Jhana, samatha, samadhi, call as you will. With metta, Alex #99350 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "But the sutta itself says: "'Herein, monks, a monk, having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree or to an empty place, sits down with his legs crossed, keeps his body erect and his mindfulness alert.'" Scott: This won't be long. I have no patience with you as object. ;-) (Oh, there's the winky guy again, everything is fine.) The sutta also says: "Again, bhikkhus, when walking...when standing... when sitting...when lying down...however his body is disposed..." Going to the roots of trees or to the forest, sure. But other and all places and postures as well. Enough of the trees and roots already, man, I get it. Its not what I'm talking about. Sincerely, Scott. #99351 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "...Same is with bhavana, satipatthana, Jhana, samatha, samadhi, call as you will." Scott: Synonymous terms for you, Alex? Sincerely, Scott. #99352 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "But the sutta itself says: > > "'Herein, monks, a monk, having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree or to an empty place, sits down with his legs crossed, keeps his body erect and his mindfulness alert.'" > > Scott: This won't be long. I have no patience with you as object. ;-) (Oh, there's the winky guy again, everything is fine.) The sutta also says: > > "Again, bhikkhus, when walking...when standing... when sitting...when lying down...however his body is disposed..." > > Going to the roots of trees or to the forest, sure. But other and all places and postures as well. Enough of the trees and roots already, man, I get it. Its not what I'm talking about. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Hi Scott, all, The talk about 4 postures can be applied to what is done IN seclusion. Even those who sit under the trees can't sit there for more than 7 days in one session. They have to walk, stand, stretch, and at least some times - lie down and sleep. All the talk about trees is to show the importance of seclusion. With metta, Alex #99353 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "The talk about 4 postures can be applied to what is done IN seclusion. Even those who sit under the trees can't sit there for more than 7 days in one session. They have to walk, stand, stretch, and at least some times - lie down and sleep. All the talk about trees is to show the importance of seclusion." Scott: You're fixated, Alex. ;-) Satipa.t.thaana is for everywhere. Sincerely, Scott. #99354 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:57 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 8. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 19-jul-2009, om 18:37 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina, I am sorry if my statement above offended you. ------ N: O, no. On the contrary. You are never offending, I think. I mean it when I say that I appreciate reminders. I had to think of flipflopping during the day, realizing how often citta is distracted with akusala. Not discouraging, but valuable to know, thanks to the Buddha! --------- > > A:Flip floping between senses is my problem as well. I am not perfect. > Also feeling of emotional pain for the Dhamma, when some people say > certain things. -------- N: Do not feel pain when others say things that are unwelcome to you. The hearing is vipaaka, such is life. We just have to accept that. Not everybody thinks in the same way. You speak of deep meditation as a support for satipatthana. But we have to consider in what situation each one of us is in already, because of conditions. I have a busy life: washing, ironing, shopping, cooking etc. When I have time in between I spend it thus: listening to Dhamma tapes, and in order to find time anyway I get up usually before 5.30, writing, revising what I wrote formerly, making it ready for printing, doing Pali texts, answering posts. That is the best I can do. And what is your life story? A busy life, working, a job? Do you have a family? I am corresponding with you quite a while, but I know very little about you. Is your life favorable for jhaana? I hope you do not mind my questions, asked just out of interest. ---------- > > > N: The question is how. Seeing, for example arises, but it is > > produced by kamma, it is vipaakacitta. > > A: I disagree strongly with what you are assertine. While it is > true that kamma caused us to be reborn in this or that plane that > limits the choice, you seem to put too much emphasis to determinism. > While it is true that in Hell one can't choose to see pleasant > things and in Heaven one's seeing is mostly limited to those > heavenly things... In many cases (ex: human & rupa planes) It is > possible to remove manasikara toward the eye (or other sense doors) > in deep meditation so not to see things for a set time. This is > what the Buddha did in DN16 for example so that he neither saw nor > heard the lightning and someone who has died. ------ N: Agree, because when 'in jhaana' sense objects are not perceived, just the meditation subject of jhaana. But when we speak now about daily life, not jhaana, there is seeing, hearing etc. all the time. The sense-cognitions are vipaakacitta, produced by kamma. When it is time to see, there is seeing, when it si time to hear, there is hearing. It is so valuable to come to know all such moments as just dhammas, not belonging to 'us'. ------- > > A: Nina, is manasikara totally predermined? Is there predestination > (even billions of years ago) that at this moment Alex would move > the eyeball here or there? ------ N: No predestination. Many conditions cooperate so that this or that happens. ---------- > > A: >How could 'we' fulfill the task of past kamma and produce > seeing in >order to be aware of it? > > > It is caused by conditions that are made now. ------- N: Past kamma is past kamma but it produces results right at this moment. -------- > > A:IMHO, Kammavipaka should NOT be viewed as fatalism "what happens > happens, nothing can be done. " ------- N: What happens happens, that is just the way it is. But our reactions towards it can be with wise attention or with unwise attention. Wise attention: see my correspondence with Dan: stimulating talks, reminders of good friends are very helpful for wise attention. -------- > > A: If, G-d forbid, strong intention to commit heineous crime > arises. Should a person put utmost effort at cutting this thought > out? Of course! ------ N: When one has listened to the Dhamma there is understanding of the value of kusala, of abstaining from evil, certainly. --------- > > A>What did Nun Uttama did sitting for 7 days in one session? Why > was it alright for her and it is not alright for us to have mini > session of that (most of us can't sit 7hours, let alone 7 days) ----- N: Conditions, no rule. There is no rule that everybody should do this or that. ------ Nina. #99355 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth truth_aerator Hello Scott, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "...Same is with bhavana, satipatthana, Jhana, samatha, samadhi, call as you will." > > Scott: Synonymous terms for you, Alex? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > They are Intedependent. Any sort of "insight" practice is optimally done AFTER Jhana. In order to get into Jhana in the first place, a certain level of insight is needed as well. With metta, Alex #99356 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:04 am Subject: The Inconvenient truth truth_aerator Hi Scott, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "The talk about 4 postures can be applied to what is done IN seclusion. Even those who sit under the trees can't sit there for more than 7 days in one session. They have to walk, stand, stretch, and at least some times - lie down and sleep. All the talk about trees is to show the importance of seclusion." > > Scott: You're fixated, Alex. ;-) > > Satipa.t.thaana is for everywhere. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. But it is done most effectively in a proper setting, just like study for the final exams is easier to do in a quite & secluded setting rather than in a noisy place or while driving a car. I know, I have it myself, a tendency to wish that awakening can be done in any place and no sacrifice is needed. With metta, Alex #99357 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:10 am Subject: revisit Sisters, 2, Tissa. nilovg Dear friends, I just continue revisiting, today: Tissa: O Tissaa! train thyself in the trainings three. See that the great conjuncture now at hand Pass thee not by! Unloose all other yokes, And fare thou forth purged of the deadly Drugs. And she, when she heard the verse, increased in insight, and attained Arahantship. Thereafter she was wont to repeat the lines. ***** ::::::::::::::::: text/verse: "Tisse sikkhassu sikkhaaya, maa ta.m yogaa upaccagu.m; sabbayogavisa.myuttaa, cara loke anaasavaa"ti. Pruitt: Tissa, be trained in the training. May the opportune occasions not pass you by. Unfettered from all ties, live in the world without taints. further commentary:... may the opportune occasions not pass you by, that is to say: (1) human existence, (2) faculties without deficiency, (3) the appearance of a Buddha, (4) the attaining of faith. May these opportune occasions (yogaa) and conditions, the right times that are hard to obtain, not pass you over. Or, taking [the meaning to be] the fetters of sensual pleasures (kaama- yogaadayo), may the four fetters (yogaa) not overcome you, they should overpower you. Unfettered from all ties, freed from all the ties (yogehi) beginning with the fetters of sensual pleasures (kaama- yogaadiihi), then being without taints (anaasavaa), live in the world; may you live faring well in this world. -------- N: It is good to be reminded of the four opportune occasions. We are born a human in this life and not sure whether in a following life we have the opportunity to hear Dhamma again. Let us not waste any opportunoty to develop understanding, not waste our lives with akusala. As to the attaining of faith, saddhaa, this is confidence in the Dhamma we heard. As understanding grows, confidence in the right Path becomes stronger. Nina. #99358 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "They are Interdependent. Any sort of 'insight' practice is optimally done AFTER Jhana. In order to get into Jhana in the first place, a certain level of insight is needed as well." Scott: There is no formal 'practice.' Bhaavanaa is development, not 'practice.' Mike very helpfully clarified, off-list, that while jhaana may be attainable in this day and age, as it was before the arrival of the Buddha, vipassanaa after jhaana, using jhaana-citta as object, depends on accumulations not likely present for any or many today. As such, the pursuit of jhaana is just a hobby, an obsession, or a new religion. And as for the insight needed to 'get into jhaana,' this is true, but such insight must be proceeded by insight at the level of pariyatti, which, as far as I can tell, you and I both lack. Sincerely, Scott. #99359 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:20 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "But it is done most effectively in a proper setting, just like study for the final exams is easier to do in a quite & secluded setting rather than in a noisy place or while driving a car. I know, I have it myself, a tendency to wish that awakening can be done in any place and no sacrifice is needed." Scott: Enough, Alex. You are simply repeating yourself. Sincerely, Scott. #99360 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:31 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. onco111 c: ...let me quit talking with my mouth full and go back to reading the label on the can: #98643 - << We may believe that this particular person, this place and this situation are the causes of our unhappiness. However, these are not the real causes. The real cause is our accumulated dosa [and lobha and moha]. When we are aware of naama and ruupa there is less enslavement to the objects we experience. >> Amen. #99361 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth onco111 Hi Nina, To continue: N: Practice without a basis of understanding what the objects of satipatthaana are, and what sati and pa~n~naa are will not lead to the goal. One may just practise with an idea of self, not knowing that whatever arises is conditioned and cannot be directed by a 'self'. --> That's for sure. N: Intellectualizing does not seem a good term. I would rather say: understanding, and that of different levels. --> I don't really like the template of different "levels" here. There are two different types of understanding: intellectual understanding and direct understanding. Within each of these categories, there are surely different levels of depth, but the two types of understanding are of such different character we can't really say they are different levels---as if the path to direct understanding is to get to a progressively deeper intellectual understanding. It seems to me like the term "intellectualizing" fits well with the "different levels" template. In any case, we need to always be alert to the dangers of intellectualizing and sakayaditthi in our, just as we are alert to misapprehensions about "self" in our practice. -Dan #99362 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:19 pm Subject: Talk with Scott truth_aerator Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "They are Interdependent. Any sort of 'insight' practice is optimally done AFTER Jhana. In order to get into Jhana in the first place, a certain level of insight is needed as well." > > Scott: There is no formal 'practice.' Bhaavanaa is development, >not 'practice.' Fine. Lets call Bhavana, development (active) rather then practice. It is unfortunate that as usual, you cling to only a certain set of words, and dismiss valid points merely on the ground that they didn't use your set of words. >Mike very helpfully clarified, off-list, that while jhaana may be >attainable in this day and age, as it was before the arrival of the Many masters today have attained it. It is questionable regard the nature of the "Jhana" prior to the Buddha. At best it was a semi-Jhana, somewhat similiar to what the Buddha taught - but not quite. Jhana requires N8P, a path that was unknown prior to the Buddhas pointing it out. >Buddha, vipassanaa after jhaana, using jhaana-citta as object, >depends on accumulations not likely present for any or many today. And if one never develops a certain skill, than what chance is there of him having it later on? Sure that for most, me included, deep meditation is gained with difficulty. However the more one develops it, the easier it will become. >as such, the pursuit of jhaana is just a hobby, an obsession, or a >new religion. I believe that pursuit of more prolific words, concepts & ideas is a new religion. Especially when it is aimed at secular Westerner. > > And as for the insight needed to 'get into jhaana,' this is true, >but such insight must be proceeded by insight at the level of >pariyatti, which, as far as I can tell, you and I both lack. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. It takes a person with insight to recognize the other's person's insight. If you, as you admit, lack in insight then-> HOW CAN YOU JUDGE ME (or others)? If you haven't achieved this or that level of samadhi (panna, or magga-phala), how can you know what it is like and who has it & who doesn't? In Buddha's time some people couldn't even recognize a Buddha in person, nothing to say about us, talking on the internet. I don't consider it to be "insight" to be able to parrot some super complex lines of Abhidhamma, VsM, Comy or even the suttas. Insight isn't limited to sticking to a dogmatic & rigid lexicon being used. With metta, Alex #99363 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:25 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth truth_aerator Hi Scott, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "But it is done most effectively in a proper setting, just like study for the final exams is easier to do in a quite & secluded setting rather than in a noisy place or while driving a car. I know, I have it myself, a tendency to wish that awakening can be done in any place and no sacrifice is needed." > > Scott: Enough, Alex. You are simply repeating yourself. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Some people (me included) don't always understand something from the 1st time. Sometimes multiple explanations are needed. It is good that you have agreed with me on the above point that A: "But it is done most effectively in a proper setting, just like study for the final exams is easier to do in a quite & secluded setting rather than in a noisy place or while driving a car. I know, I have it myself, a tendency to wish that awakening can be done in any place and no sacrifice is needed." Those people who had miraculous attainments had proper accumulations going and where what is called "Ugghatitannu, Vipancitannu" induvidials. They also have met a Buddha or one of his Arhat disciples. But at some point they may have been neyya or padaparama individuals who strove and worked hard at becoming "Ugghatitannu & Vipancitannu" class of induvidials. With metta, Alex #99364 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:34 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. truth_aerator Hi Dan, Scott and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > c: ...let me quit talking with my mouth full and go back to reading the label on the can: #98643 - << We may believe that this particular person, this place and this situation are the causes of our unhappiness. However, these are not the real causes. The real cause is our accumulated dosa [and lobha and moha]. When we are aware of naama and ruupa there is less enslavement to the objects we experience. >> > > Amen. > Yes. The other sense object is not the *sole* cause. Arahant will not be shaken by any sense-object and nothing will cause lust or hatred to arise. However the truths relevant to an Arahant (asekha), is not always relevant to sekhas or worldlings. It is true that lets say a lustful object is not a sufficient cause for lust to arise. But some objects can be used by lust or hatred as objective support conditions for latent tendencies to use and cause latent defilements to arise: ======= suttas ============== 1. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a form that captivates the mind of man as that of woman. The form of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the first. 2. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a sound that captivates the mind of man as that of woman. The sound of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the second. 3. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a smell that captivates the mind of man as that of woman. The smell of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man This is the third. 4. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a taste that captivates the mind of man as that of woman. The taste of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the fourth. 5. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a touch that captivates the mind of man as that of woman. The touch of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the fifth. 6. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a form that captivates the mind of woman as that of man. The form of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman. This is the sixth.. 7. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a sound that captivates the mind of woman as that of man. The sound of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman. This is the seventh 8. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a smell that captivates the mind of woman as that of man. The smell of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman This is the eighth.. 9. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a taste that captivates the mind of woman as that of man. The taste of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman. This is the nineth. 10. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a touch that captivates the mind of woman as that of man. The touch of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman. This is the tenth. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara1/1-ekanipata/\ 001-Cittapariyadanavaggo-e.html With metta, Alex #99365 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apology for wrong speech philofillet Hi Sarah (and Scott later?) > S: Well, no Buddha here and I see no problem with your 'write and run' approach. I was just discussing styles with Scott and I never think in terms of 'trolls'. I think people write because they have an interest in the Teachings, that's all. Ph: Yes, but slanderous speech is wrong speech and is harmful to onself and others. If I were you, I would encourage Dhamma friends to continue to abstain from slander rather than "seeing no problem" in it, you know? > >..So much passionate enthusiasm for Dhamma these days!) > .... > S: Share, write and run anytime:). Ph: No, I will continue to abstain from harmful speech. (I don't know if it is harmful to others for sure, but I know it is harmful to me. I am become more and more sensitive to what constitutes wrong speech and hopefully more and more awttuned to abstaining from it.) > And in case you're reading this Phil, you've alluded many times to the 'unfortunate' episode a few years ago when you returned to Canada with a suggestion that K.Sujin or her students would not speak out or discourage strong breaches of sila. Let me assure you that if I had had any hint or clue from you that you were about to do something seriously harmful to you and your wife, I would have sent you an off-list cautionary note. Ph: Yes, but at the same time you were expressing consistently opinions along the line of "don't try to be a better person, trying always involves self, if there is trying it is a sign of self at work, let awareness of nama and rupa perform its function and behaviour will improve" which is very deep and attractive but leaves people who are prone to bad behaviour without helpful support. I am studying Dhammapada in detail now, in Pali, with as much commentary as possible, and become more and more convinced that the Buddha did not stress insight into anatta at all costs, that he stressed at first righting behaviour. The Buddha knew that human birth is very rare and that there is a horribly high probability of being swept back into the seas of the woeful realms (this is an image used a few times.) There is a repeated emphasis on the importance of right conventional behaviour, because by righting conventional behaviour we are likely to be righting the way harmful dhammas accumulate. I feel very fortunate to understand this, very fortunate to understand that I (so to speak) was born with very harmful tendencies (people are different, you will have to admit that someday!) and very fortunate to understand that ultimately there is a more profound liberation that involves insight into the characteristics of dhammas. But to place an immediate emphasis on the latter when people are destroying their rare situation by bad behaviour is not the best way of being a friend, in my opinion (and my opinion is right here! :) > Usually, people are pretty good at keeping these things secret from friends and family until after the event, however, because they don't wish to hear any discouragement of the lobha involved at the time. Ph: I guess this part is from a post by Scott. Hi Scott, sorry I've been not responding (or reading!) your posts. Yes, you're right, I was thiinking about this. When I went to Bangkok in 1991 I was hellbent on finding sweet young prostitutes and All the King's Horses and All the King's Men couldn't have stopped me. I don't try to stop my young co-workers from carousing, I know it has to play out. But it's different when people have awoken to the Dhamma. When I performed my evil deeds 5 years ago it was as a practicing Buddhist who, if I had been associating with the right friends and listening to the right teachers, would simply not have drank alcohol, wouldn't have broken that precept, plain and simple. But there is such fuzziness about the precepts, not only at DSG but everywhere in the west. I guess because of people's aversion to Xnty or something there is a rejection of the Precepts as moral imperatives. I remember I used to say "the preccepts are not commandments, they are descriptions of the behaviour of an enlightened person" and things like that. Now thanks to my detailed study of Dhammapada (and quite a lot of the commentary, wish I had it all) and thanks to listening to teachers like U Pandita Sayadaw who are quite fierce on moral issues the probability of my ever drinking alcohol again, of my ever playing that dangerous and foolish "a little bit won't hurt" game again, is nearly nought. So my point is that no, we can't do much to have an influence on the behaviour of people who haven't woken to the Dhamma, but if they have we can have a helpful influence by laying the Buddha's teaching on them rather than laying deep, deep, deep considerations of the anattananess of dhammas on them, I think. The Buddha himself stressed conventional aspects of behaviour (dana etc) before he taught the deep teachings particular to the Buddha, until he knew the listener's mind was ready. We don't know that for sure, but we know that people are behaving badly are not ready. Oh yes, Angulimina or whatever his name was. People love that murderer because he makes it look like anyone is ready to awaken to the deep teachings at any time. Great, very convenient! Thanks for letting me ramble a bit, off to Canada in a few days, see you at Tim Horton's. (Not you, Sarah, only Canadians are allowed to go to Tim Horton's.) Metta, Phil #99366 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apology for wrong speech philofillet Hi again Sarah > > S: Well, no Buddha here and I see no problem with your 'write and run' approach. I was just discussing styles with Scott and I never think in terms of 'trolls'. I think people write because they have an interest in the Teachings, that's all. > > Ph: Yes, but slanderous speech is wrong speech and is harmful to onself and others. If I were you, I would encourage Dhamma friends to continue to abstain from slander rather than "seeing no problem" in it, you know? This and especially other things I wrote like "if I had been associating with the right friends" make it sound like I don't appreciate what you've done for me. I *do* appreciate DSG because it is the only place to come across a certain deep consideration of the Dhamma that can't be found elsewhere. Now that I have got things in balance, I feel fortunate that I can continue to benefit from the deep considerations that are found here. We'll see if I'll ever be able to challenge the bizarre extreme expressions of such considerations (capsulized in Ken H's posts) in a nice, friendly way. (I know Ken H is a nice person but this feigned detachment, "oh, just namas and rupas, nothing to worry about there" is dangerous and incorrect. Such detachment has to be earned, mouthing it for discussion purposes is nutty and should be questioned by his cohorts in Deep Insight of the Present Moment as Expressed on the Internet.) Metta, Phil #99367 From: "Dr. Han Tun" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:29 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (35) hantun1 Physical Phenomena (35) Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas): continuation. Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ As we have seen, visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object (which consists of three of the four Great Elements) are experienced through the corresponding sense-doors and they can also be experienced through the mind-door. The sense-organs themselves through which the sense-objects are experienced are ruupas that can only be known through the mind-door. The five sense-organs are the bases (vatthus) or places of origin of the corresponding sense-cognitions. Cittas do not arise outside the body, they are dependent on the physical bases where they originate [Note 12]. The eyesense is the base where seeing-consciousness originates. The earsense is the base where hearing-consciousness originates, and it is the same in the case of the other sense-organs. As regards the base for body-consciousness, this can be at any place of the body where there is sensitivity. The sense-organs are bases only for the corresponding sense-cognitions. All the other cittas have another base, the heart-base; I shall deal with that later on. The five sense-organs function also as doorways for the five kinds of sense-cognitions, as we have seen. The doorway (dvaara) is the means by which citta experiences an object. The eyesense is the doorway by which seeing-consciousness and also the other cittas arising in that process experience visible object. As we have seen, cittas which experience objects impinging on the senses and the mind-door time and again, arise in processes of cittas [Note 13]. The cittas other than seeing-consciousness which arise in the eye-door process do not see, but they each perform their own function while they cognize visible object, such as considering visible object or investigating it. Each of the five sense-organs can be the doorway for all the cittas in the process experiencing a sense-object through that doorway. The sense-organs can have the function of base as well as doorway only in the case of the five sense-cognitions. The sense-organs arise and fall away all the time and they are only doorway when an object is experienced through that sense-organ. Eyesense, for example, is only eye-door when visible object is experienced by the cittas arising in the eye-door process. When sound is experienced, earsense is doorway and eyesense does not function as doorway. [Note 12] There are also planes of existence where there is only naama, not ruupa. In such planes cittas do not need a physical base. [Note 13] See Introduction. -------------------- Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas) to be continued. with metta, Han #99368 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Revisit Sisters, was: The Inconvenient truth upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/19/2009 12:30:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "I agree with that. As regards jhana cultivation, however, the greater the physical seclusion the better. However, in the rare case that sufficiently powerful mental conditions are in place, jhana could even be entered in the midst of an environment that is far from conducive - but this would be most unusual. Typically, it would only be so for one who is already quite adept." Scott: I'm not speaking of jhaana cultivation, Howard. I find that this discussion is cluttered with constant references to jhaana. Satipa.t.thaana is not jhaana. Satipa.t.thaana in relation to jhaana-citta would take jhaana-citta as object, and, in this case, jhaana-citta is not different from any other potential object of satipa.t.thaana. This is the point I'm making. Yes, there is such a thing as the cultivation of the jhaana attainmenmts. These are not relevant here. And whether jhaana can be entered into in a non-conducive environment is doubtful, since 'non-conducive' would apply to conditions not conducive to entering jhaana. Momentary concenration as a part of a kusala moment called 'satipa.t.thaana' is another thing. Please stay calm, Howard. I'm just disagreeing with you're 'agreement', which, as usual, isn't agreement. ;-) (See, winky guy.) ------------------------------------------ I agreed with you with regard to insight. That stands. Then I went on to discussing samatha. And as for their being entirely distinct, the Buddha *does* teach of in-tandem development, not only of sequential development. -------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ============================= With metta, Howard P. S. No need to keep on talking about my staying calm, Scott. When I'm not being poked at, I'm quite calm. :-) #99369 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:26 pm Subject: Pure Action! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Good for All are the 3 Kinds of Right Bodily Action! The Blessed Buddha once said: How, Cunda , is purity of bodily action 3-fold? 1: Harmlessness! Herein, someone avoids the destruction of all life, does never kill any living being. Without stick or weapon, careful, kind, and full of sympathy, one protects the welfare of all living beings! 2: Honesty! One avoids all stealing, abstains from taking what is not freely given, what another possesses of goods and property in the village or in the woods, one does not take any of that away with thievish intent! 3: Decency! One avoids all illicit and abusive sexual contacts, and abstains from all adultery: One has no intercourse with youngsters there are under the protection of father, mother, brother, relatives, nor with any married persons, nor with any convicts, nor with betrothed persons, nor with those engaged to another partner! This 3-fold purity of bodily action is obviously advantageous for all beings! More on Right Action (Sammā Kammanta): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Action.htm ... Have a nice pure day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Pure Action! #99370 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:26 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 4, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, The nma which sees is different from the rpa which is visible object. When we learn to see realities as elements which arise because of conditions and which we cannot control, we will be less carried away by pleasant or unpleasant objects. We are attached to the feelings which arise on account of the objects which are experienced. Feeling accompanies each citta but we are mostly forgetful of feeling. Is there any understanding of the feeling which presents itself now? If there never is awareness of feeling there cannot be detachment from the idea of my feeling. There are realities appearing through the six doors, wherever we are. There is no need to go to a quiet place in order to know them. When we are in the company of many people, for example at a party, there are only realities appearing through the six doors and gradually we can learn to be aware of them. We see pleasant objects and on account of these we feel happy. However, we can remember that it is only feeling which feels, feeling which has arisen because of pleasant contact. We will see or hear unpleasant objects and owing to the unpleasant contact unhappy feeling is bound to arise. We will get tired when we have to stand for a long time while we listen to speeches and we may feel tense.There are only different realities appearing such as hardness or aversion. All the time there is diversity of elements, diversity of contact and owing to that contact diversity of feeling. We can consider the Dhamma wherever we are and if there is no clinging to sati there can be conditions for its arising. There cannot yet be the precise knowledge of realities but we can begin to learn. ****** Nina. #99371 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:21 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth nilovg Dear Dan, Op 19-jul-2009, om 21:49 heeft Dan D. het volgende geschreven: > I don't really like the template of different "levels" here. There > are two different types of understanding: intellectual > understanding and direct understanding. Within each of these > categories, there are surely different levels of depth, but the two > types of understanding are of such different character we can't > really say they are different levels---as if the path to direct > understanding is to get to a progressively deeper intellectual > understanding. -------- N: This is a difficult area. I am more inclined to think of different levels. Intellectual understanding is not as precise as direct understanding; we could say the object is a concept, but, a concept of a reality, a nama or rupa. This understanding gradually grows and conditions another level: direct understanding of nama and rupa. ------ Nina. #99372 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: >. Within each of these categories, there are surely different levels of depth, but the two types of understanding are of such different character we can't really say they are different levels---as if the path to direct understanding is to get to a progressively deeper intellectual understanding. ________ Dear dan Maybe we can refer to the texts and discuss. Lets look at this: From Venerable Dhammanando Pariyatti as the Root of the Ssan (From the Atthakath to Anguttara Nikya, Ekanipta, Dutiyapamddivagga, 42nd sutta) Neither among a hundred bulls, nor among a thousand, will even a single bull ensure the continuance of his line in the absence of a cow. Even so, neither among a hundred bhikkhus intent on insight, nor among a thousand, will even a single bhikkhu penetrate the noble path in the absence of pariyatti. Marks are engraved in rock to show the location of buried treasure; for as long as those marks endure, the treasure is not reckoned as lost. Even so, for as long as pariyatti endures, the Teacher's Dispensation is not reckoned to have disappeared. (Manorathapraṇ i. 92-3, translation Dhammandando) and this Commentary to samyutta Nikaya (note 313 ) page 809 Bodhi "for when learning declines the practice declines, and when the practice declines achievement declines. But when learning becomes full, persons rich in learning fill up the practice, and those filling up the practice fill up achievement. Thus when learning etc are increasing my Dispensation increases just like the full moon." I think both pariyatti and patipati are rooted in panna but pariyatti is taking a concept as object whereas patipatti takes an element as object. But could patipatti ever arise if pariyatti wasn't at a sufficiently strong level? Robert #99373 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: >> I must admit that Sukin is right that a striving to develop intellectual understanding can be quite effective at stifling an inclination to practice. And the Pali canon provides much fodder for intellectualizing. > > Metta, > > Dan > Dear dan what is practice as you see it? Robert #99374 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:49 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "...It is good that you have agreed with me on the above point that 'But it is done most effectively in a proper setting, just like study for the final exams is easier to do in a quite & secluded setting rather than in a noisy place or while driving a car. I know, I have it myself, a tendency to wish that awakening can be done in any place and no sacrifice is needed...'" Scott: I've not entirely agreed with you, Alex. I do not agree with your attempt to suggest that satipa.t.thaana is a 'practice' that is to be 'done' only by sitting like the stereotypical 'meditator'. Do you agree with the following: 1. Satipa.t.thaana differs from the development of calm. 2. Given that the Buddha refers to all postures in the section on Contemplation of the Body, and given that sitting is but one of the postures, satipa.t.thaana can arise in any posture - sitting, standing, lying down, walking, however the body is disposed - and is not dependent on 'sitting' alone. 3. Given that the three feelings (pleasant, painful, and neither-painful-nor-pleasant) are included as objects of satipa.t.thaana, and given that these can occur at any time, satipa.t.thaana with such dhammaa as objects can occur at any time. Sitting is not relevant here either. 4. Given that the list: 'mind affected by...unaffected by lust,' 'mind affected by...unaffected by hate,' 'mind affected by...unaffected by delusion,' 'contracted mind,' 'distracted mind,' 'exalted mind,' 'unexalted mind,' 'surpassed mind,' 'unsurpassed mind,' 'concentrated mind,' 'unconcentrated mind,' 'liberated mind,' and 'unliberated mind,' covers a life and its many dhammaa, there is no need to think that only by sitting can satipa.t.thaana develop, with such a wide range of objects. 5. Given that the hindrances can arise everywhere and any time sensual desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, doubt can become object of satipa.t.thaana at any time; material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness can become the object of satipa.t.thaana at any time, there is no need to think that only by sitting can satipa.t.thaana develop. Sincerely, Scott. #99375 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:54 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (26-27) nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing on from #99264 Fours (24-25) (cy: #99343) -- CSCD < Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:19 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth truth_aerator Hi Scott, Nina and all interested, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "...It is good that you have agreed with me on the above point that 'But it is done most effectively in a proper setting, just like study for the final exams is easier to do in a quite & secluded setting rather than in a noisy place or while driving a car. I know, I have it myself, a tendency to wish that awakening can be done in any place and no sacrifice is needed...'" > > Scott: I've not entirely agreed with you, Alex. I do not agree with your attempt to suggest that satipa.t.thaana is a 'practice' that is to be 'done' only by sitting like the stereotypical 'meditator'. > One doesn't have to just sit. There is walking meditation as well. And what is bad about "stereotypical" meditator? The Buddha is often depicted as meditating with crossed legs. If you have any issue with it, talk to the Buddha. > Do you agree with the following: > > 1. Satipa.t.thaana differs from the development of calm. Not completely. Without concentration, satipatthana is just another theory, and insight - just concepts. Strong sati & samadhi are required for quick and strong progress. > 2. Given that the Buddha refers to all postures in the section on >Contemplation of the Body, and given that sitting is but one of the >postures, satipa.t.thaana can arise in any posture - sitting, >standing, lying down, walking, however the body is disposed - and is >not dependent on 'sitting' alone. > 3. Given that the three feelings (pleasant, painful, and neither-painful-nor-pleasant) are included as objects of satipa.t.thaana, and given that these can occur at any time, satipa.t.thaana with such dhammaa as objects can occur at any time. Sitting is not relevant here either. > > 4. Given that the list: 'mind affected by...unaffected by lust,' 'mind affected by...unaffected by hate,' 'mind affected by...unaffected by delusion,' 'contracted mind,' 'distracted mind,' 'exalted mind,' 'unexalted mind,' 'surpassed mind,' 'unsurpassed mind,' 'concentrated mind,' 'unconcentrated mind,' 'liberated mind,' and 'unliberated mind,' covers a life and its many dhammaa, there is no need to think that only by sitting can satipa.t.thaana develop, with such a wide range of objects. > > 5. Given that the hindrances can arise everywhere and any time sensual desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, doubt can become object of satipa.t.thaana at any time; material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness can become the object of satipa.t.thaana at any time, there is no need to think that only by sitting can satipa.t.thaana develop. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. Again, all of the above is done best in quite seclusion. Just like study for the exams is not effectively done while you are driving or managing other tasks, same is here. Period. With metta, Alex #99377 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:39 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth nilovg Dear Alex, Op 20-jul-2009, om 19:19 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > 'But it is done most effectively in a proper setting, just like > study for the final exams is easier to do in a quite & secluded > setting rather than in a noisy place or while driving a car. I > know, I have it myself, a tendency to wish that awakening can be > done in any place and no sacrifice is needed ------- N: This last sentence makes me think about sacrifice. When in a quiet place it may seem: less disturbance, faster progress, but what reality exactly does one really know? It seems like a sacrifice to go into seclusion, no entertainments etc. One expects something in return: fast progress. It may even seem that there is great progress. When you know: in any place, any circumstance, one sees more and more the many defilements that occur. It is realistic. Patience is the greatest ascetism. Not a passive patience, or a deterministic patience. One knows that it is a long way, but one perseveres with determination. One has no expectations as to fast progress. ----- Nina. #99378 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:34 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth truth_aerator Dear Nina (and all interested) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Op 20-jul-2009, om 19:19 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > 'But it is done most effectively in a proper setting, just like > > study for the final exams is easier to do in a quite & secluded > > setting rather than in a noisy place or while driving a car. I > > know, I have it myself, a tendency to wish that awakening can be > > done in any place and no sacrifice is needed > ------- > N: This last sentence makes me think about sacrifice. Is there something wrong with sacrificing sensuality for Dhamma? > When in a quiet place it may seem: less disturbance, faster >progress, but what reality exactly does one really know? Based on seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching & thinking. Except in a retreat, one is more likely to be less physically and mentally disturbed and remember the above. Sensual objects do support latent tendencies to arise and overpower the mind. If I remember correctly they are "objective support condition" that avijja can use. In a retreat there are less objects that can overpower a person. >It seems like a sacrifice to go into seclusion, no entertainments >etc. Sacrifice of lesser pleasure for higher happiness. > One expects something in return: fast progress. It may even seem >that there is great progress. Desire can be skillfully used but up to a point. If there is no intention, one wouldn't even move a finger. The greater the task, the greater the intention needed to actually do it. >One has no expectations as to fast progress. > Nina. I disagree. I believe that desire for letting go off unwholesome qualities IS GOOD. ""This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned. "This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html With metta, Alex #99379 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:49 pm Subject: correction truth_aerator correction: > >One has no expectations as to fast progress. > > Nina. While one shouldn't cling to expectations, when it comes to desire for Arhatship, it is important & skillful to have. >> I believe that desire for letting go off unwholesome qualities IS >GOOD. > > > ""This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned. > "This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html > > > > With metta, > > Alex #99380 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth onco111 Hi Robert, Pariyatti is of course crucial. The question is what "pariyatti" means. From what I can gather from the texts and dictionaries, "pariyatti" is "learning the wording of the doctrine." The references seem to always discuss pariyatti in the context of survival of the teachings: "as long as pariyatti endures, the Teacher's Dispensation is not reckoned to have disappeared." Learning the wording of the doctrine was of supreme importance in the first few hundred years of the dispension when it was passed on through oral transmission. There's a further point, though, and that is that progress on the path is not going to happen in the absence of the teaching, so pariyatti is critically important. The question: "But could patipatti ever arise if pariyatti wasn't at a sufficiently strong level?" is rhetorical. The answer is a tautology: There cannot be patipatti unless pariyatti is sufficiently strong. The real questions are: (i) what is "pariyatti", and (ii) what is "sufficiently strong", and (iii) how does the teaching support development? -Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > >. Within each of these categories, there are surely different levels of depth, but the two types of understanding are of such different character we can't really say they are different levels---as if the path to direct understanding is to get to a progressively deeper intellectual understanding. > ________ > Dear dan > Maybe we can refer to the texts and discuss. Lets look at this: > From Venerable Dhammanando > > Pariyatti as the Root of the Ssan > > (From the Atthakath to Anguttara Nikya, Ekanipta, Dutiyapamddivagga, 42nd sutta) > > Neither among a hundred bulls, nor among a thousand, will even a single bull ensure the continuance of his line in the absence of a cow. Even so, neither among a hundred bhikkhus intent on insight, nor among a thousand, will even a single bhikkhu penetrate the noble path in the absence of pariyatti. > > Marks are engraved in rock to show the location of buried treasure; for as long as those marks endure, the treasure is not reckoned as lost. Even so, for as long as pariyatti endures, the Teacher's Dispensation is not reckoned to have disappeared. > (Manorathapraṇ i. 92-3, translation Dhammandando) > > > and this > Commentary to samyutta Nikaya (note 313 ) page 809 Bodhi > "for when learning declines the practice declines, and when the practice declines achievement declines. But when learning becomes full, persons rich in learning fill up the practice, and those filling up the practice fill up achievement. Thus when learning etc are increasing my Dispensation increases just like the full moon." > > I think both pariyatti and patipati are rooted in panna but pariyatti is taking a concept as object whereas patipatti takes an element as object. But could patipatti ever arise if pariyatti wasn't at a sufficiently strong level? > Robert > #99381 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth onco111 Hi Robert, You ask: "what is practice as you see it?" I'd say: observing dhammas or striving to remain alert to their rise and fall. -Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > >> I must admit that Sukin is right that a striving to develop intellectual understanding can be quite effective at stifling an inclination to practice. And the Pali canon provides much fodder for intellectualizing. > > #99382 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Hi Robert, > You ask: "what is practice as you see it?" > > I'd say: observing dhammas or striving to remain alert to their rise and fall. > > -Dan Hello Dan, all. And how exactly does on do that? What is Right Effort in that case? What constitutes seeing their rise & fall? With metta, Alex #99383 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apology for wrong speech truth_aerator Hi Phil and all interested, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Sarah (and Scott later?) >Ph: I am studying Dhammapada in detail now, in Pali, with as much >commentary as possible, and become more and more convinced that the >Buddha did not stress insight into anatta at all costs, that he >stressed at first righting behaviour. Exactly. Anatta without morality and certain wisdom may create such wrong opinions as "there is no killer or the killed. The blade, rupa, just passess between two rupa." Often the Buddha taught the graduated discourceL 1 Generosity 2 Virtue 3 Heaven 4 Danger of sensual pleasure 5 Renunciation 6 The Four Noble Truths (Ud 5.3, MN56) Where after the 5th, the hearer would attain some meditation, after which the 4 NT would be taught and sometimes causing the hearer to enter the Stream. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anupubbikatha Note the so called "conventional" teaching of generosity, virtue, heaven, danger of sensual pleasure. Trying to jump strait to building 10th floor, without even making a 1st one, may not turn out very well. Maybe this is why there is so much crazy wisdom and misguided anatta teachings of the "be one with a bow" variety. With metta, Alex #99384 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Hi Robert, > You ask: "what is practice as you see it?" > > I'd say: observing dhammas or striving to remain alert to their rise and fall. > > -Dan > > > dear dan What do you mean by observing or striving to remain alert, perhaps you could elaborate on what these factors are. Is there a method to make them arise? Robert p.s. This reminds me of the discussions we had some 8 or 9 years ago. S #99385 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:56 pm Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 5, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Dear Mr. G., I will repeat your question: 'There is awareness, but not often of characteristics of nma and rpa. How can I get to know directly characteristics of realities?' Is there seeing now? It has a characteristic which can be directly experienced. It is a reality which can experience visible object through the eye-door. It is a type of nma, not self. Is there hearing now? That is another reality. It is a type of nma which experiences sound through the ear-door. Hardness, softness, heat or cold appear time and again. They are different realities which each have their own characteristic. A characteristic of nma or rpa is not something besides that which can be experienced now, at this moment. All realities which appear have different characteristics and they can be experienced one at a time. Seeing is nma, visible object is rpa; they have different characteristics. You wrote that you cannot distinguish the difference between seeing and thinking about what was seen, that they seem to occur at the same time. When we pay attention to the shape and form of something such as a chair there is thinking. However, are there not also moments of merely experiencing what appears through the eyesense, without there being thinking? There is not all the time thinking or defining of what something is. There are moments of seeing and seeing conditions thinking about what was seen, but they occur at different moments. One citta can have only one object at a time. We cannot expect to have precise understanding of realities, but we can begin to be aware of different realities. There are different degrees of knowing characteristics of nma and rpa and when pa has been developed more, they will be known more clearly. They have to be known as nma and as rpa, not self. ******** Nina. #99386 From: "sprlrt" Date: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:13 am Subject: Hetu/root, jhna, magga/path and other conditions sprlrt Hi Sarah & all, A few more paccayas from Patthna, section 2. Paccayaniddeso, and 7. Pahvro: hetu/root, indriya/faculty, hra/nutriment, jhna, magga/path, vippayutta/dissociation. Alberto Abhidhamma - Patthna 2. Paccayaniddeso, concise exposition The [six] roots / The non-rpa (arpino) faculties / The non-rpa nutriments / The jhna factors / The path factors are condition, as root condition, / as faculty condition, / as nutriment condition, / as jhna condition, / as path condition, for their associated [nma] dhammas and for citta-produced rpas. Edible (kabalinkro) nutriment is condition, as nutriment condition, for this body. The life-faculty rpa is condition, as faculty condition, for stored-up [kamma-produced] rpas. The eye-faculty [rpa] / ... / The body-faculty [rpa] is condition, as faculty condition, for the eye-consciousness element / ... / for the body-consciousness element, and for its associated dhammas. Rpa dhammas are condition, as dissociation condition, for non-rpa [nma] dhammas. Non-rpa dhammas are condition, as dissociation condition, for rpa dhammas ... 7. Pahvro ... 1. Vibhangavro; [kusala and akusala (causes), and abyakta [vipka (result), kiriya (neither cause nor result), and rpa dhammas triplets] A kusala dhamma is condition, as root condition, / as nutriment condition, / as faculty condition, / as jhna condition, / as path condition, for another kusala dhamma. Kusala roots / Kusala nutriments / Kusala faculties / Kusala jhna [samatha] factors / Kusala path [samma magga] factors are condition, as root condition, / ..., / as path condition, for their associated [nma] khandhas. A kusala dhammas is condition, as root condition, / as nutriment condition, / as faculty condition, / as jhna condition, / as path condition, for an abyakta dhamma. Kusala roots / Kusala nutriments / Kusala faculties / Kusala jhna factors / Kusala path factors are condition, as root condition, / ..., / as path condition, for citta-produced rpas. [A kusala dhammas is condition, same as above, for both kusala and abyakta dhammas, i.e. for both associated khandhas and for citta-produced rpas.] An akusala dhammas is condition, as root condition, / as faculty condition, / as nutriment condition, / as jhna condition, / as path condition, for another akusala dhamma. Akusala roots / Akusala nutriments / Akusala faculties / Akusala jhna [miccha samadhi] factors / Akusala path [miccha magga] factors are condition, as root condition, / ..., / as path condition, for their associated khandhas. An akusala dhamma is condition, as root condition, / as nutriment condition, / as faculty condition, / as jhna condition, / as path condition, for abyakta dhammas. Akusala roots / Akusala nutriments / ... / Akusala magga factors are condition, as root condition, / ..., / as path condition, for citta-produced rpas. [An akusala dhamma is condition, same as above, for both akusala and abyakta dhammas, i.e. for both associated khandhas and citta-produced rpas.] An abyakta dhamma is condition, as root condition, / as nutriment condition, / as faculty condition, / as jhna condition, / as path condition, for another abyakta dhamma. Vipka and kiriya roots / nutriments / faculties / jhna factors / path factors are condition, as root condition, / ..., / as path condition, for their associated khandhas and for citta-produced rpas. At the moment of re-birth/-linking (patisandhi) vipka and kiriya roots / ... / path factors are condition, as root condition, / ..., / as path condition, for their associated khandhas and for stored-up [kamma-produced] rpas. ... [Roots/hetus are six cetasikas: three akusala, moha (arising with all the 12 akusala cittas), lobha and dosa (with 4 akusala cittas each); and three arising with kusala (sahetuka/with roots vipaka or kiriya sobhana/beautiful cittas) ones, amoha (with 4 maha-kusala, 4 maha-vipaka and 4 maha-kiriya), alobha and adosa (arising along with all 8 maha-kusala, 8 maha-vipaka and 8 maha-kiriya), as well as with all rpa/fine-material, arpa/immaterial and lokuttara/supramundane cittas.] [The non-rupa faculties/arpino indriy are citta (manindriya/mind faculty) and cetasikas, including (Dhs 74-82): saddha/confidence, sati, pa/understanding (these faculties can only be sobhana (i.e. arising in cittas including kusala roots), and vriya, samdhi/one-pointedness (ekaggat), somanassa/pleasantness (sukh vedan), jivita/life (these can either be sobhana or akusala, Dhs 397) [The non-rupa nutriments/hra are three: two cetasikas, phasso/contact and (manosa)cetana/volition, and viana/consciousness (citta), and can either be kusala/sobhana, Dhs 70-73; or akusala, Dhs 397] [The jhna factors are (up to) five cetasikas: vitakka, vicra, sukha/pleasant feeling, ekaggat/one-pointedness, pti/rapture (all the jhna factors can be either kusala/sobhana, i.e. arising as samatha bhvana, Dhs 89-94; or akusala, i.e. arising as (miccha)samadhi. Dhs 397)] [The magga/path is fivefold (pacangiko), constituted of 5 factors/cetasikas, when arising in the mundane path (maha-kusala ana-sampayutta citta, with a sankhara dhamma as object, i.e. vipassana bhvana), Dhs 89: sammditthi and sammsati (pa and sati cetasikas, arising only in sobhana cittas), sammsankappo (vitakka), sammvymo (vriya), sammsamdhi/one-pointedness (ekaggat). It is also fivefold, constituted of 5 factors/cetasikas, when arising in akusala cittas, Dhs 365, 381-384, 397: micchditthi (ditthi, an akusala only cetasika), micchsankappo, micchvymo, micchsamdhi, and micchsati (this doesn't refer to a specific cetasika). It is eigthfold (atthangiko) and ariya, noble, constituted of all its 8 factors/cetasikas, when arising as supramundane path (lokuttara, with nibbna as object), the 5 + the 3 virati/abstentions of sammvaca, sammkammanta, sammjivo, right speech, action, living; destroying their akusala counterparts, Dhs 277, 298-300.] #99387 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:36 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth-Retreat Ascetism Off The Mark scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding Asceticism: A: "... Except in a retreat, one is more likely to be less physically and mentally disturbed and remember the above. Sensual objects do support latent tendencies to arise and overpower the mind ... In a retreat there are less objects that can overpower a person ... Sacrifice of lesser pleasure for higher happiness..." Scott: Ananga.na Sutta MN 9: "...If the spheres of these evil unwholesome wishes are seen and heard to be unabandoned in any bhikkhu, then for all he may be a forest dweller, a frequenter of remote abodes, an almsfood eater, a house-to-house seeker, a refuse-rag wearer, a wearer of rough robes still his fellows in the holy life do not honour, respect, revere, and venerate him. Why is that? Because the spheres of these evil unwholesome wishes are seen and heard to be unabandoned in that venerable one..." Cuu.la-Assapura Sutta MN 40: "...I do not say that a recluse's status comes about in a patchwork cloak wearer through the mere wearing of the patchwork cloak, nor in a naked ascetic through mere nakedness, nor in a dweller in dust and dirt through mere dust and dirt, nor in a washer in water through mere washing in water, nor in a tree-root dweller through mere dwelling at the root of a tree, nor in an open-air dweller through mere dwelling in the open air, nor in a practitioner of continuous standing through mere continuous standing, nor in a taker of food at stated intervals through mere taking of food at stated intervals, nor in a reciter of incantation through mere recitation of incantations; nor do I say that the recluse's status comes about in a matted-hair ascetic through mere wearing of the hair matted..." Sincerely, Scott. #99388 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:10 am Subject: For NIna Van Gorkom/ Buddhas final nibbana reverendagga... Thank you Nina for taking the time! I look up bhavanga in the Pali Dictionary and it tells me that it is indicative of the whole or constitutent parts of that which is needed for rebirth.Why would Venerable Gotama want that as a condition for final nibbana? Thank you for your thoughtful insights. Reverend aggacitto #99389 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] For NIna Van Gorkom/ Buddhas final nibbana nilovg Reverend Aggacitto, Op 21-jul-2009, om 14:10 heeft reverendaggacitto het volgende geschreven: > I look up bhavanga in the Pali Dictionary and it tells me that it > is indicative of the whole or constitutent parts of that which is > needed for rebirth.Why would Venerable Gotama want that as a > condition for final nibbana? -------- N: Bhavanga means factor of life. Bhavangacittas arise in between processes of cittas, at those moments when objects that impinge on the six doorways are not experienced. They keep the continuity of life for an individual. Bhavanga-citta is the same type of citta as the rebirth-consciousness, and they keep on arising from birth to death. The dying-consciousness, cuti-citta, is the last bhavangacitta of a life. This is a fixed order of citta, citta niyama, that nobody can alter, not even a Buddha. For the Buddha and arahats the cuti-citta is the last citta and it will not be succeeded by pa.tisandhicitta of another life. With respect, Nina. #99390 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:55 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth nilovg Dear Alex and Dan, Op 21-jul-2009, om 2:10 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Dan: I'd say: observing dhammas or striving to remain alert to > their rise and fall. > > > > Alex: Hello Dan, all. > > And how exactly does one do that? ------- N: Developing understanding, until the first stage of tender insight (distinguishing between the characteristic of nama and of rupa) is reached, and after that subsequent stages, of which the knowing of the rise and fall of dhammas is the fourth stage. But insight has to develop further, on and on up to the stages of enlightenment. ------- > A: What is Right Effort in that case? ------ N: Right effort has to accompany right understanding of the eightfold Path, otherwise it is not a factor of the eightfold Path. It supports the development of pa~n~naa, so that there is perseverance, it overcomes downheartedness that may arise because it is such a long way. --------- > A: What constitutes seeing their rise & fall? ------ N: Pa~n~naa sees the arising and falling away of the nama or rupa that appears at the present moment, be it seeing, hardness, anger. It clearly sees that reality as just a dhamma that does not stay. At this moment it seems that for example hardness was there already and that it lasts. But pa~n~naa sees the true nature of hardness, a fleeting phenomenon. This is not theory, it is the truth that is directly known at the moment sati and pa~n~naa arise. It is known without having to think about it. Nina. #99391 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth onco111 Dear Robert, I very much enjoyed those discussions about right effort, ditthi, satipatthana, silabbataparamasa, etc. 8 or 9 years ago and learned a lot. You seem to be directing the conversation back to those channels. I was trying to open a new conversation about pariyatti and "intellectual understanding." -Dan > p.s. This reminds me of the discussions we had some 8 or 9 years ago. > S > #99392 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth onco111 Hi Alex, Are you the Alex that was in on all those conversations with Robert, Jon, Sarah, etc. so many years ago? > And how exactly does one do that? (1) For "observing dhammas" [satipatthana], there is no recipe. (2) In "hearing the doctrine and striving to keep alert" I have just the conventional meanings in mind. > What is Right Effort in that case? In (1) "Right Effort" is Right Effort as discussed in the Tipitika. In (2) "Right Effort" almost never arises, except in the occasional instances of (1). > What constitutes seeing their rise & fall? Not thinking: "Hmmm...I was angry awhile ago and now I'm not," or "This too shall pass." These would be instances of thinking about dhammas. Instead, it's seeing them arise and pass away with great rapidity. Their swiftness of passage (anicca) and ungraspability (anatta/suata) appear crystal clear, and later the intellectualing mind tries to catch up with the seeing. Metta, Dan #99393 From: "Leo" Date: Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:33 pm Subject: some findings i hope you will like them leoaive To Whom it may concern Some time ago I sent you an email about Buddho (Buddha) on fabric as the most original Buddhist art. I found it in history of indian religions. I also found that Buddhist art on fabric was, as I understand, told to monks. I assume that monks know about it first, then lay people. Because of Vinaya allows monks to have extra fabric. Buddho outside should have all body covered, and lotus should be far away, no lotus for feet swiping, like it says in Vinaya. And all that should be made in a very-very nice way, it is more respect. I suppose it can be four green strips on top and use a branch of tree to make it stright. maybe two on a bottom too, to the sides, or nothing. Later I found from Sutta pitaka about blanket. I suppose art can be done on blanket. After some thinking and meditations and investigation, I am finding, that to have soft pad, like camping mats or a wall of styrofoam is good too. Then place Buddhist art. It is good in case of earquake if someone standing close, then soft pad is help and Buddho is helper. I guess styrofoam Buddha is good too. In case of flood it can save life. About Buddhist bowl, I found that ceramic bowl is the most original. It can be with some thin bumpers on sides. If mara is destruction, then to have a bowl with bumpers, is better to have. Metal bowls is more for army and jails. As I know original buddhist had ceramic or clay ones.I found in Sutta Pitaka, that ceramic is placed on smooth ground. Forest is good with some flowers and free from immoral and house roof should be strong if the tree falls down. Mara is destruction, so that forest house should not be destroyed easely. The same is good to have verandas on the side and extra support in that case. And for forest houses it is good to have a special shield made of metal that is protection from bugs and so on. It is stick out a little and curved down so the can not go up. Steps should be not too thin, otherwise after rain they can be broken. It should be treated with water protection. Storage with light. It should be made in a safe way. If rock is anger, then some buddist flip flops/slippers should be used when walking. If something made of rock, then it should have tight borders. If Nibbana is unlimited, the what is in rock should be limited,like sitting in a thick backet, and with ears up and made in unnatural way. Running way is better too, if made in a safe way. small cube on a head is ok i guess. It is much better to make a stupid man out of rock, then the wise one. Unnatural, maybe spotted one. And crane to use is better, then to deal with heavy weights. But in case of earthquake it is not good to be close to rck statues. maybe at some distance is better or built inside of fence. Stupa should be made out of clay and have a round base. Rock distroys dishes. Buddha is on a side of clay. Robes of Buddhist monk should be color of the rising sun, based on Vinaya Pitaka. But sun is far away, so it should be a combination of orange with a little bit of light blue or purple, which is haze because of big distance. Otherwise it is more fire color if yellowish and sun has radiation. It says also about hell of endless fire and endless blood as I remember. So a little bit of blue make it right. More like a rising sun in a morning. Ancient places were very natural, so it would be the most original to maintain them in a natural form. To walk in places where elders walked mean to walk in natural places. original Buddha and monks way was without rock or other statues. All statues came later and it is not real Buddho's way, that is more some new way. Fabric and blanket is more original way. Tathagatha's touch is soft and He likes cakes. It says also in Sutta Pitaka, Samyita Nikaya about murderous forms. I guess rock statues would belong to murderous forms and do not really make happy. As I know India was very vegetarian those days because of hindu religions and bad karma to kill beliefs and I guess dahl ,nuts and milk products were the main source of protein, unless someone is living close to rivers and ocean and can not grow dahl or buy it, they did fishing. But Buddho did not live in many cases close to ocean and rivers, so most likely main dishes were vegetarian with protein coming from dahl, nuts and milk products. Bamboo fence can be made not only with bamboo sticks, but also planting bamboo without digging and letting it grow.. Later it will be big green bamboo walls. natural look and good protection from running in animals. Whatever we do we accumulate certain karma. If we accumulate karma that Buddho never talked about then we accumulate kamma that was not told by Buddho. Satipattana should have meditation on burned body too, because it was a common practice in India. And butcher and meat close to cross roads most likely was added later by someone. Buddha has nothing to do with meat, cows and cross roads, but Isitipatana park and deers running more original.. And safe forest too. Word distroy suffering and so on is not correct translation. Buddho did not teach to destroy as the right path. What is kindness is Buddho. Vinaya does not say: I allow rock statues, so fabric Buddha would be more original. Many times it is translated as distroy attachements etc, is not correct, because right way is not to distroy. It should be translated as giving up, be away or be not associated with, ending. Abiding in non-perception or perception is under the tree, when practicing meditation. Crimson clor of pillows and deer skin on a cauch most likekly was added (Samyita Nikaya). Forest is good the one free from immoral, wild beasts and scorpions, snakes etc, just like Isipatana Park. which is reference. Bag and other fabric should have rounded corners, like fruits. I hope you like my findings. Sincerely With Metta Leeo #99394 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:40 pm Subject: Sweet Sameness! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is the Unconditioned State Like? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, the vanishing of all greed, all hate, and all ignorance: This, friends, is called the Uncreated..., the Unconditioned ... the Uninclined, the Unattracted, the Unmanifested State! The Infinite..., the True Freedom..., the Further Shore... the Subtle..., the Inconceivable..., the Ageless..., The Unity... the Permanent..., the Beyond of all diversity..., the Peaceful... the Deathless..., the Sublime Sameness..., the Wonderful... the Sweet Safety..., the Fantastic..., the Sorrowless..., the Refuge..., the Unoppressed ... the Detached..., the Release, the Island..., the Shelter..., the Final State..., the Highest Bliss: Nibbāna... Samyutta Nikāya. 43:12-44 There exists indeed, Bhikkhus, that which is unborn, is unbecome, is uncreated, that which is uncaused and unconditioned… For if there were not, Bhikkhus, that which is unborn, is unbecome, is uncreated, that which is uncaused and unconditioned, there could not be made known right here the absolute escape from that, which is born, from that which is become, from that which is created, from that which is conditioned... However since there indeed exists, Bhikkhus, that sublime state, which is unborn, which is unbecome, which is uncreated, and absolutely unconditioned, there is therefore right now made known the complete escape from that, which is born, from that, which is created, from that, which is conditioned... Itivuttaka: 43 <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Stilled Singularity of Sweet Sameness! #99395 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:39 pm Subject: Re: E-card from Italy 2 sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Apologies as usual for slow replies... the usual jet-lag and catching up for me:) #98860 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > >S: Does meditation have to wait until we're in an idyllic quiet corner >or can there be calm and wisdom when busy and stressed at work? > >A: It doesn't need to wait, but there are times when seclusion is timely and appropriate. As you know, there are many suttas about going in the wild, empty caves, root of the trees, abandoned building, etc. .... S: Yes, and many suttas about large gatherings, society, family, all classes of people and so on. I liked this quote from Nina's series: "If there is no right understanding of the object of satipatthna, everything hinders: the place where one lives, relatives, travelling or sickness. There always seems to be an excuse for not being aware right at this moment. First this work has to be finished, that letter has to be written, relatives need help and take up our time so that we believe that there is no opportunity for awareness." S: The point is that there is only ever NOW! At this moment, we are where we are, doing what we're doing by conditions. At this moment there are realities which can be directly known. If instead of being aware of seeing or visible object or any other reality now, we're thinking about concentrating, labelling, being in a quiet place or in a better frame of mind, we're losing the plot - there's no understanding at all of the only reality appearing, the reality now. .... > >S:If we have the idea that 'meditation' has to be 'done' in a certain >way and at a certain time, > >A: In certain way = without Self view, "doing", controlling or hindrances. ... S: OK, right understanding now. ... > >S:instead of being liberating, it's imprisoning. > >A: If done properly it helps to liberate from Samsara. *IF* done properly. Furthermore the more one LETS GO and RELINQUISHES control the more bliss arises. That is wonderful, better than being in this painful body. .... S: As soon as there's an idea of "doing properly",it's not the development of satipatthana. At moments of right understanding (and other eightfold path factors arising), there's no idea of "doing" anything. As for the bliss, this is attachment again, as I see it. What about the detachment of understanding whatever is conditioned now? ... >A: Some places are more suitable than others. ... S: At this moment of thinking like this, what's the reality? Surely, it's just thinking - yet another dhamma that can be known. What it thinks about is unimportant, just another concept. Metta, Sarah ======= #99396 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:42 pm Subject: Re: On understanding sarahprocter... Hi Alex, #98863 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > Personally I believe that understanding is more than just being able to recite some doctrine while showing one's prolix knowledge of the vocabulary and obfuscation of simple teachings. .... S: I agree! So let's discuss the "simple teachings" as they apply at this very moment! What can be understood right now? Metta Sarah ======= #99397 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Jon, Howard & all, >H:....What one does when in seclusion is, of course, > crucial. ============ === J:> Yes, the crucial point is what one does or, more precisely, the quality of one's mental state, when in physical seclusion (and, of course, at other times also). It is the development of kusala of various kinds that is the gist of the Buddha's teaching. Physical seclusion was part of that for a certain kind of person (mainly, monks developing samatha with the aim of achieving jhana), but for these people seclusion comes naturally as samatha is further developed. And while noise, crowds of people etc are hindrances to attaining jhana, they are not hindrances to the development of samatha at lesser levels. .... S: I think this is a very important point, i.e "...seclusion comes naturally as samatha is further developed. And while noise, crowds of people etc are hindrances to attaining jhana, they are not hindrances to the development of samatha at lesser levels." Often I read people to suggest that physical seclusion is necessary for even the beginning level of the development of samatha. This is not correct. Again it is the right understanding that is important for the wise reflection, even for the development of samatha. Metta Sarah ======== #99398 From: westbankj@... Date: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti, was: The Inconvenient truth farrel.kevin Hi Dan, Do you mean in a way that conditions and reinforces the idea that there is a "self" that accomplishes things as opposed to particular dhammas arising and falling due to various circumstances which we mistakingly see as a 'self'? In particular we should see that reinforcing this self-view cannot condition panna, but only more ignorance and attachment. When panna arises, based upon the correct conditions, it can understand dhammas for what they really are; however, if there is no fuel for that fire, it cannot burn. The only fire that continues to burn is the fire of self-view as mara throws the wool over our eyes making us think there is a "self" that can find the truth. The Buddha explained that that isn't the case and that in fact, there are just conditioned dhammas rising and falling, like delusion, and self-view, and panna. Each is conditioned by certain things. When there are correct conditions for panna to arise, it will naturally arise. It is not brought about by a "being". To think that would be a silly misunderstanding of the Buddhas' teaching. Kevin In a message dated 7/20/2009 7:11:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: Hi Robert, You ask: "what is practice as you see it?" I'd say: observing dhammas or striving to remain alert to their rise and fall. -Dan #99399 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Physical Phenomena (31) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Alex & all, --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Dr. Han Tun wrote: >The eye is compared to an ocean [Note 5], because it cannot be filled, it is unsatiable. We are attached to the eyesense and we want to go on seeing, it never is enough. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (IV, Sa.laayatana- vagga, Fourth Fifty, Ch 3, 228, The Ocean) [Note 6]: "... The eye, bhikkhus, is the ocean for a person; its current consists of forms. One who withstands that current consisting of forms is said to have crossed the ocean of the eye with its waves, whirlpools, sharks and demons. Crossed over, gone beyond, the brahmin stands on high ground." The same is said with regard to the other senses. .... S: And nowhere is it suggested that the way to "withstand that current" is to close one's eyes or block the other senses. Even if one's eyes are closed, one thinks and dreams about the objects one is so attached to, the "waves, whirlpools, sharks and demons":-). The only way is the development of sati-sampaja~n~naa when a visible object, attachment or any other reality appears. ..... [Note 5] Dhammasanga. nii 597. Atthasaalinii II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 308. [Note 6] I used the translation by Ven. Bodhi, "The Connected Discourses of the Buddha". "Form" is his translation of ruupa, which is actually visible object.< .... S: Thx for all your work in sharing the series, Han. Metta, Sarah ========