#99800 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 6:07 am Subject: dhamma friends gazita2002 hallo friends, been having time with a friend who has inoperable cancer and has chosen to eliminate the cancer by natural therapies. It was a great opportunity to read and discuss dhamma together - reminding ea other that all condditioned dhammas are anicca, dukkha, anatta. We talked about lobha and its characteristic of clinging and when lobha arises there will be clinging to whatever object we hold near and dear - our life, our ability to cope, even visible object. As we discussed some cetasika and their characteristics and manifestations, it became a little clearer to us how anatta come to be. No lastng self can be found in any of these cetasikas that arise and fall so quickly. Fear and frustration are manifestations of dosa cetasika which because of conditions, arises and falls - cant help having nama and rupa!! Best to accept what is, rather than trying to cchange or run away from present moment realities. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #99801 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 8:44 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: space, continued. nilovg Dear Sarah, I believe Chew's question was in relation of the Katavatthu text, and this text makes me puzzled. I am still having quite a lot of trouble with the texts in relation to unconditioned akaasa. Little by little I shall go over these. Today it is Katavatthu. I quote a post of July 14: Chew: Later Buddhist schools have regarded it as one of several > unconditioned or uncreated states (asankhata dharma) - a view that > is rejected in Kath. (s. Guide. p. 70). ------ N: I looked it up and read : is space something uncreated (asankhata)? This view was held by the Uttar. and Mahims. and later on by the Sarvastivaada. I also wrote to Sarah before about this subject, and here is our correspondence: .... S: Yes, I remember noticing this before and raising it once with K.Sujin. It's not a problem, however - the first is referring to paricchheda akasa rupa (the conditioned space rupa), the second as the object of jhana (a concept) and the third to a concept of open space, as I recall. ... Op 3-aug-2009, om 12:56 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > >What is the relation between "concepts of the real and concepts of > the unreal" with "the unconditioned paramattha dhamma of akasa rupa"? > ... > S: I forget the context, but we have, in daily life, many concepts > of space which are 'concepts of the unreal', because they are not > concepts about realities. There can, however, be concepts about > realities now, such as hardness, sound or aakaasa ruupa. > Furthermore, there are the realities themselves, which are not > concepts. ------- N: What is it exactly that the Uttaraapathakas and Mahi.msaasakas held and what exactly was rejected as non-Theravada? My problem is that one can interprete texts in different ways. But these are things I am just unable to solve. I feel like Han: too much for my remaining days. Nina. #99802 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 8:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma friends sarahprocter... Dear Azita, Wonderful that your friend is able to discuss and reflect on the Dhamma at this time and to appreciate the real deep-rooted problems in life. Good accumulations from the past. Thanks for sharing. As I saw your message, I was just finishing my skype chat with with my mother who'd been spending time with a friend of hers who'd just lost her daughter (younger than me) to bone cancer. And today, another friend wrote to say he had stomach cancer, was having chemo etc. We never know what will happen to us, but there are always namas and rupas. As you say: "Best to accept what is, rather than trying to change or run away from present moment realities." Best wishes for your friend with lots of patience, courage and good cheer! A blessing that you are around to help give good dhamma reminders too. Metta Sarah ======== --- On Tue, 4/8/09, gazita2002 wrote: <...> >Fear and frustration are manifestations of dosa cetasika which because of conditions, arises and falls - cant help having nama and rupa!! Best to accept what is, rather than trying to cchange or run away from present moment realities. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #99803 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 12:41 pm Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (28-29) scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing from Fours (26-27) (cy: #99632, 99655): CSCD 312. Cattaari pa~nhabyaakara.naani â€"[cattaaro pa~nhaabyaakara.naa (sii. syaa. ka.m. pii.)] eka.msabyaakara.niiyo pa~nho, pa.tipucchaabyaakara.niiyo pa~nho, vibhajjabyaakara.niiyo pa~nho, .thapaniiyo pa~nho. Walshe DN 33.1.11(28) 'Four ways of answering questions: (a) to be answered directly (eka'msa-vyaakara.niyo pa~nho), (b) requiring an explanation (vibhajja-v. p.), (c) requiring a counter-question (pa.tipucchaa-v. p.), (d) to be set aside (.thaapaniiyo pa~nha). [iii 230] Olds [4.28] Four ways of explaining questions. Explaining a question directly;[ 4.28.1 ] explaining and analysing a question;[ 4.28 ] explaining a question by asking a counter-question;[ 4.28.3 ] the question is left standing unexplained.[ 4.28.4 ] RDs [4.28] Four modes of answering questions, to wit, the catego4rical reply, the discriminating reply, the counter-question reply, the waived question. **olds: [4.28] Cattaaro pa~nha-vyaakara.naa: Eka'nsa-vyaakara.niiyo pa~nho, vibhajja-vyaakara.niiyo pa~nho, pa.tipucchaa-vyaakara.niyo pa~nho, thapaniiyo pa~nho. PED: Pa~nha [Ved. prashna] mode of asking, inquiry, investigation, question D I.11 (deva-) M I.83; III.30; A I.103, 288; III.81, 191 sq., 419 sq.; pa~nha.m pucchati to ask a question. -pa.tibhaana an answer to a question M I.83; -viima.msaka one who tests a question Sn 827; -vyaakara.na mode of answering questions, of which there are 4, viz. eka.msa "direct," vibhajja "qualified," pa.tipucchaa "after further questioning," .thapaniiya "not to be answered or left undecided," thus enumd at D III.229; A I.197 sq.; II.46. Vyaakara.na (nt.) [fr. vyaakaroti; see also veyyaakara.na] 1. answer (pa~nha-), explanation, exposition A I.197; II.46; III.119; - 2. grammar (as one of the 6 angas) - 3. prediction Veyyaakara.na (m. nt.) [=vyaakara.na] 1. (nt.) answer, explanation, exposition D I.46, 51, 105, 223; II.202; A III.125; V.50 sq.; - 2. (m.) one who is expert in explanation or answer, a grammarian D I.88; A III.125. [ 4.28.1 ]Eka'nsa-vyaakara.niiyo pa~nho: At-once explaining question. This is a little deeper than simply answering directly. It also means not adding any extraneous or supplemental information; an answer that would resemble one given by a well-trained witness. [ 4.28.2 ]Vibhajja (adv.) [ger. of vibhajati] dividing, analysing, detailing; in detail, D III.229 (-vyaakara.niiya pa~nha "discriminating reply" trsln); A II.46 (-vacana analysis). -vaada the Vibhajja doctrine, i. e. the doctrine which analyses, or the "religion of logic or reason"; a term identical with theravaada, the doctrine of the Elders, i. e. the original teaching of the Buddhist church. -vaadin one who teaches the V. doctrine, Ep. of the Buddha [ 4.28.3 ]Pa.tipucchati [pa.ti+pucchati] to ask (in return), to put a question to, to inquire D I.60; M I.27; S III.2; A I.197; II.46; also neg. appa.tipucchaa (abl. adv.) without inquiry Vin I.325. Pa.tipucchaa (f.) [pa.ti+pucchaa] a question in return, inquiry; only (as abl.) by question, by inquiry, by means of question & answer in foll. cpds.: -kara.niiya Vin I.325; -viniita A I.72; -vyaakara.niiya (pa~nha) D III.229. This doesn't mean argumentative counter-questioning ('Well, I ask the same question of you!" etc.); this is a question designed to elicit the answer from the questioner after having perceived that the questioner is likely to know the answer but is not thinking in the right way to bring it to consciousness. [4.28.4].thapaniiya: left standing. ***rd: 4.28B. says these are discussed in the 'Mahaapadesa kathaa.' This is apparently not the sermon on the 'four Mahaapadese' in A. II, 167, nor the brief summary (as above) in A. II, 46, but the sermon on the 'Ti.ni Kathaavatthuuni,' in A. I, 197. There is apparently no Mahaapadesa kathaa in the Digha. CSCD Cattaari kammaani â€" atthaavuso, kamma.m ka.nha.m ka.nhavipaaka.m; atthaavuso, kamma.m sukka.m sukkavipaaka.m; atthaavuso, kamma.m ka.nhasukka.m ka.nhasukkavipaaka.m; atthaavuso, kamma.m aka.nhaasukka.m aka.nhaasukkavipaaka.m kammakkhayaaya sa.mvattati. Walshe DN 33.1.11(29) 'Four kinds of kamma: There is (a) black kamma with black result (ka.nha-vipaaka'm), (b) bright kamma with bright result (sukka-v.), (c) black-and-bright kamma with black-and-bright result, (d) kamma that is neither black nor bright (aka.nham-asukka'm), with neither black nor birght result, leading to the destruction of kamma. *1072 Olds [4.29] Four ways of laying in kamma: There is, friends, dark kamma with dark consequences. There is, friends, bright kamma with bright consequences. There is, friends, dark/bright kamma with dark/bright consequences. There is, friends, not-dark not-bright kamma with not-dark/not-bright consequences leading on to the withering away[ 4.29.1 ] of kamma. RDs [230][4.29] Four kinds of action, to wit, that which is dark with dark result, that which is bright with bright result, mixed, with mixed result, that which is neither, withneither kind of result, and conduces to the destruction of karma (action). *walshe: 1072 Kamma that leads to enlightenment, when no more kamma will be created. **olds: [4.29] Cattari kammaani: Atth'aavuso kamma.m ka.nha.m ka.nha-vipaaka.m. Atth'aavuso kamma.m sukka.m sukka-vipaaka.m. Atth'aavuso kamma.m ka.nha.m-sukka.m ka.nha-sukka-vipaaka.m. Atth'aavuso kamma.m aka.nha.m asukka.m aka.nha-asukka-vipaaka.m kammakkhayaaya sa.mvattati. Ka.nha (adj.) [cp. Vedic krs..na, Lith. k.rszas] dark, black, as attr. of darkness, opposed to light, syn. with kaa.la (q. v. for etym.); opp. sukka. In general it is hard to separate the lit. and fig. meanings, an ethical implication is to be found in nearly all cases (except 1.). The contrast with sukka (brightness) goes through all applications, with ref. to light as well as quality. I. Of the sense of sight: k-sukka dark & bright (about black & white see niila & seta), forming one system of colour sensations (the colourless, as distinguished from the red-green and yellow-blue systems). As such enumd in connection with quasi definition of vision, together with niila, piita, lohita, ma~nje.t.tha at D II.328=M I.509 sq. =II.201 - II. (objective). 1. of dark (black), poisonous snakes: ka.nhaa (f.); - 2. of (an abundance of) smooth, dark (=shiny) hair (cp. in meaning E. gloom: gloss=black: shiny) - 3. of the black trail of fire in -vattanin. 4. of the black (fertile) soil of Avanti - III. (Applied). 1. -pakkha the dark (moonless) half of the month, during which the spirits of the departed suffer and the powers of darkness prevail - 2. attr. of all dark powers and anything belonging to their sphere, e. g. of Maara Sn 355, 439 (=Namuci); of demons, goblins (pisaacaa) D I.93 with ref. to the "black--born" ancestor of the Ka.nhaayanas, cp. also kaa.la in -sunakha, the Dog of Purgatory - 3. of a dark, i. e. miserable, unfortunate birth, or social condition D III.81 sq. (braahmano va sukko va.n.no, ka.nho a~n~no va.n.no). -abhijaati a special species of men according to the doctrine of Gosaala A III.383 sq. -abhijaatika "of black birth," of low social grade D III.251=A. III.384; in the sense of "evil disposition" at J V.87 (expld as kaa.laka--sabhaava). - 4. of dark, evil actions or qualities: -dhamma A V.232=Dh 87; D III.82; -pa.tipadaa J I.105, and -magga the evil way A V.244, 278; -bhaavakara causing a low (re--)birth J IV.9 (+ paapa--kammaani), and in same context as dhamma combd with -sukka at A IV. 33; -kamma "black action" M I.39; -vipaaka black result, 4 kinds of actions and 4 results, viz. ka.nha-, sukka-, ka.nha--sukka-, aka.nha--asukka- D aka.nha 1. not dark, i. e. light, in -netta with bright eyes, Ep. of King Pingala--netta J II.242 in contrast with Maara (although pingala--cakkhu is also Ep. of Maara or his representatives, cp. J V.42;). - 2. not evil, i. e. good A II.230, 231. PED: [ Kaala (and Kaa.la) -- Preliminary. 1. dark (syn. ka.nha, which cp. for meaning and applications), black, blueblack, misty, cloudy. Its proper sphere of application is the dark as opposed to light, and it is therefore characteristic of all phenomena or beings belonging to the realm of darkness, as the night, the new moon, death, ghosts, etc. -- There are two etymologies suggestible, both of which may have been blended since IndoAryan times: (a) kaala=Sk. kaala, blue--black, kaalii black cloud from *qaal (with which conn. *qel in kalanka, spot, kalusa dirty, kammaasa speckled, Gr. kelaino/s, Mhg. hilwe mist)=Lat. caalidus spot, Gr. khli/s spot, and khla/s dark cloud; cp. Lat. caaliigo mist, fog, darkness. -- (b) see below, under note. -- Hence. 2. the morning mist, or darkness preceding light, daybreak, morning (cp. E. morning=Goth. maúrgins twilight, Sk. marka eclipse, darkness; and also gloaming= gleaming=twilight), then: time in general, esp. a fixed time, a point from or to which to reckon, i. e. term or terminus (a quo or ad quem). -- Note. The definition of colour--expressions is extremely difficult. To a primitive colour--sense the principal difference worthy of notation is that between dark and light, or dull and bright, which in their expressions, however, are represented as complements for which the same word may be used in either sense of the complementary part (dark for light and vice versa, cp. E. gleam > gloom). All we can say is that kaala belongs to the group of expressions for dark which may be represented simultaneously by black, blue, or brown. That on the other hand, black, when polished or smooth, supplies also the notion of "shining" is evidenced by kaa.la and ka.nha as well, as e. g. by *skei in Sk. chaayaa=Gr. skia/ shadow as against Ags. h.amacremacr.ven "blue" (E. heaven) and Ohg. skiinan, E. to shine and sky. The psychological value of a colour depends on its light--reflecting (or light absorbing) quality. A bright black appears lighter (reflects more light) than a dull grey, therefore a polished (a~njana) black (=sukaa.la) may readily be called "brilliant." In the same way kaala, combined with other colour--words of black connotation does not need to mean "black," but may mean simply a kind of black, i. e. brown. This depends on the semasiological contrast or equation of the passage in question. Cp. Sk. shyaama (dark--grey) and shyaava (brown) under kaasaaya. That the notion of the speckled or variegated colour belongs to the sphere of black, is psychologically simple (: dark specks against a light ground, cp. kammaasa), and is also shown by the second etymology of kaala=Sk. shaara, mottled, speckled=Lat. cærulus, black--blue and perhaps cælum "the blue" (cp. heaven)=Gr. khru/los the blue ice-bird. (On k > s cp. ka.n.na > shr..nga, kilamati > shramati, kilissati > shlis-, etc.) The usual spelling of kaala as kaa.la indicates a connection of the .l with the r of shaara. -- The definition of kaa.la as jhaam' angaarasadisa is conventional and is used both by Bdhgh. and Dhpaala: DhsA 317 and PvA 90. [4.29.1] Khaya [Sk. ks.aya to ks.i, ks.i.noti & ks.i.naati; cp. Lat. situs withering, Gr. fqi/sis, fqi/nw, fqi/w wasting.] waste, destruction, consumption; decay, ruin, loss; of the passing away of night; mostly in applied meaning with ref. to the extinction of passions & such elements as condition, life, & rebirth. ***rd: 4.29 Dark and bright are meant ethically and eschatologically; a parallel pair of terms: tamo, joti, is used in K.S. I, 118 f., and below, xlix. The fourth alternative is [mental activity in] Fourfold Path-knowledge. To be continued... connie, Nina, Scott. #99804 From: Ken O Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 1:42 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: space, continued. ashkenn2k Dear Nina keep it simple, space is a condition whatever so call unconditional space is just conceptual. The only one element that is unconditional is Nibbana, so others are just condition and concepts are just like smoke in the air. Sometimes, trying to fathom things that are beyond our understanding is not helping, good to be inquisitive and investigative, just that .... it must have a dose of faith or it never ends, then we will never start. A paradox, a conundrum, in the end, it is the understanding of reality that matters. Cheers Ken O #99805 From: Ken O Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 1:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma friends ashkenn2k Dear Azita At times, I fear how I am going to die, will it be painful. When I see a frail elderly person, I also fear how my old age will be. When I see someone just passed away suddenly, I wonder how I feel if that is my family. Such is fear, the anxiety and there is no running away. Its difficult to face life adversity especially it happens to us. How will I react then? At times, it really scares me and will I be born in hell or lower realms? There are endless of them. Every time I think of it, I shudder. I tell myself to be brave, to see reality at least in this life. Not easy, but understanding reality at that moment, release me momentarily from such dukkha. I know even it is a little understanding of reality, even I know it is a drop among the ocean of my akusala cittas or my understanding still in the conceptual stage, to me that it is enough, to me it is salvation enough. This is all the hope and faith of dhamma, I have to face such adversities. A little but this little means so much. With metta Ken O #99806 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 1:58 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: space, continued. nilovg Dear Ken O, I am glad to see you here agian. Thank you for the good reminder. A dilemma may distract from the present moment. Nina. Op 4-aug-2009, om 15:42 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > A paradox, a conundrum, in the end, it is the understanding of > reality that matters. #99807 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 2:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 1, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 1 Patience. Right understanding can be developed no matter where one is, on land, on water or in the air. Gabi, Alan and I had opportunities for Dhamma discussions with Acharn Sujin while we were walking along the pyramids of Gizeh, in papyrus shops, in handicraft shops, in restaurants, in the bus, in a horse coach, on a boat or on the plane. The scenery changed all the time, but we were reminded that everything that appears is a dhamma, a conditioned reality. Seeing sees visible object now, and also aeons ago there was seeing of visible object, and there will be seeing in the future, for aeons to come. We have read about physical phenomena (rúpa) and mental phenomena (nåma) and we have considered them; we have listened to tapes about the Dhamma, but we also need to be reminded of realities in the different situations of our daily life. Then we can see more clearly that everything we learn is not mere theory, that it is all about daily realities. We have read inspiring texts about patience, but do we realize when there is an opportunity to develop it in our daily life? We read in the “Dhammapada” verses 183, 184: “To abstain from evil, to cultivate wholesomeness, to purify the mind, - this is the teaching of the Buddhas. Forbearing patience is the highest ascetism, nibbåna is the supreme, say the Buddhas; he, verily is not a recluse who harms another; nor is he an ascetic who oppresses others.” It is said that one should abstain from evil, develop wholesomeness and purify the mind. However, we forget that patience is most essential. “Without patience one cannot attain enlightenment”, Acharn said. We need great patience to develop understanding of all realities of our daily life. In the “Exhortation to the Påìimokkha” the “Ovåda Påtimokkha”, the same is said as in the text just quoted from the “Dhammapada”, but the order is different: patience is mentioned first, and this is very appropriate. We believe that it is beneficial to develop loving-kindness, mettå, but it cannot be developed if one does not see the danger of dosa and the benefit of patience (Visuddhimagga IX, 1-3). We may be inclined to think about patience in a general, conventional sense, thus, about a concept of patience, instead of developing patience in daily life, whenever there is an opportunity for it. Acharn showed us very clearly during this journey that at the moment of akusala citta there is impatience and at the moment of kusala citta there is patience. When there is awareness of akusala we can see that it is ugly and we can understand more clearly its disadvantage. Seeing the benefit of kusala is a condition for the arising of kusala citta and at that moment there is patience. ******* Nina. #99808 From: "colette" Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 9:12 pm Subject: Re: Pull my finger, was: Eyes closed ksheri3 Hi Scott, sorry for the delay, it's a problem I have with my ability to only scan the numerous amounts of material I have chosen to be able to "pick & choose" from, in this case it referesa to my lack of ability to FIND my name and to deal with the response i.e. for ever every action there is a re-action. Today, in my state of bliss, which I am experiencing at this moment, I will say that I have to COGNIZE the fact that DAMN, AREN'T I THE ULTIMATE HERETIC, AREN'T I A DUPLICATION OF THIS EGYPTIAN PHAROAH THAT CHANGED THE ENTIRE EGYPTIAN PROCESS PSYCHOLOGY TO THAT OF WORSHIPPING A SINGLE SUN GOD, A RA, AND HE MOVED THE ENTIRE MANUFACTURING PROCESS FROM THE FACILITY CALLED THEBES TO A NEW TOWN THAT HE HIMSELF BUILT. While I am honoered to be in such illustrious company I am not about to chan ge anything! I can clearly recall after my accident, while recouperating, I was asked to come to a person's home that lived a few blocks from me, maybe 2, two blocks, at the most, it was John Banks. He and I and another person, were sitting downs stairs in the house enjoying the music of 10 Years After, the album was the "LIve" album. and I have never ever been able to discontect the song "I'd Like To Change The World" from my consciousness, IN FACT, I ALWAYS BEGIN MY MAGIKAL EXSTRAVAGANZAS BY CLEARLY POINTING OUT THAT I CANNOT CHANGE THE WORLD AND IT IS YOU, MY PEERS, THAT HAVE TO PARTICIPATE WITH ME IN ORDER TO BRING ABOUT CHANGE. WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. THERE IS NO MISTAKE, THERE IS NO EXCLUSION AND INCLUSION, IT'S ONE SINGLE ENTITY. Pishaw, I recall dragging my fellow shipmates over the border of Tijuana after they had probably INTENTIONALLY glorified their hallucinations of the reality of the USNAVY as being something that it was not, it was never, and it will never be. Still, I did not allow my shipmate to wallow in the blood from his wounds on the border, I participated with people I did not know only to bring back an American sailor from problems. I am a very blatant heretic and well, EVEN IN BUDDHISM, I am the heretical figure. Okay, I'm gonna print this else wheres but to make my point I bring forth the 6 Yogas of Niguma (.... what a set of "process psychological" steps). ....this is nothing more than a "guided meditation", AHA (Aleister Crowley, damned if I don't have to give you cognition), this is a guided meditation which means that it's another person's conceptuality. Oh, and what .... monk in Asia will not immediately attach the clearly reasonable LABEL of "Guided Meditation"? Who is doing the guiding? is it some plastic manifestation of reality called THE STATUS QUO or is it a genuinely POTENTENTIAL REALITY? Ah, the Six Yogas of Niguma are genuine potentials of reality and we can find them in the THERAVADAN doctrines? NO. THEY ARE ESOTERIC. THEY ARE ADVACED. Sorry for having to use that terminology but you my sisters and bros in the Theravadan community are not exempt from the benefits of this procedure since I have no claims to EXCLUSION and ISOLATIONISM. (this is a practice of the Caste System and it's slaves, robots) > Scott: Good question. It recalls to mind a recurring, and in my opinion, spurious argument often seen on the list against a certain understanding of anatta. From the perspective of this particular view, it is suggested that to understand anatta in a way that places the 'person' in the conceptual realm is to justify MURDER or any other akusala act involving these so-called 'persons'. colette: Anatta? What? This is a very common problem with the neophyte that begins the path and is first dealt this REALITY OF A NON-SELF! Anatta, how absurd. Okay, the self either exists or it does not exist. How can a person be "placed" in any position if that person has never had the chance to exist and does not exist? Where is the opportunity to place this person, this RUPA, IN TIME? [see this is what i spoke of earlier, I am working on Yoga Nidra and have found my 'theory of karma' applicable as well as my theory of THE LAST LAUGH, but this is a side point which characterizes the post here.] It is good that you raised this issue since now you can examine the reality of CAUSATION which is the foundation of the Abhidaharma. Personally, I don't know how to explain it other than I have the most extraordinary need to work with people and to always work to a better end. I have often made the statement in the Golden Dawn that "I cannot see or cognize this thing people call 'EVIL'." What is evil? For instance how can murder be claimed to be evil if that is the only function of the CASTE SYSTEM? Why do people devote themselves to MURDER by pledging slavery to a CASTE when they know that murder is worng? It's nothing more than a procedure and a process psychology. governemtns such as Moscow and those of Asia; HA, <...> Scott, you and Howard have hit upon me at a splendid time of extreme physical stresses within my body, in my meditations. I must put forth a post that I was working on at home, and I know that post will totally work with this post, so I am gonna PLAY IT BY EAR, and, AS TOTALLY TYPICAL, SHOOT FROM THE HIP. YOU two have given me a great perspective upon which to analyse the dharmas EXCEPT, I was working on the PAST DHARMA'S relationship to the PRESENT DHARMA, through the cognition of a FORMLESS CONSCIOUSNESS i.e. yoga nidra. Bless you both. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear colette, > > Regarding: > > c: "How could I possibly hurt myself since I don't exist and have no feelings and am nothing more than a NON-PERSON as described by the soviet governments of Moscow and practiced by countless Asian governments but in this case is strict dogma of a Republican ANGRY WHITE MALE PARTY..." > > Scott: Good question. It recalls to mind a recurring, and in my opinion, spurious argument often seen on the list against a certain understanding of anatta. From the perspective of this particular view, it is suggested that to understand anatta in a way that places the 'person' in the conceptual realm is to justify MURDER or any other akusala act involving these so-called 'persons'. <...> #99809 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 9:30 pm Subject: Re: Not Posted: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Mike: Hindrances and jhaana.] upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - I think I never replied to the following: In a message dated 7/31/2009 2:51:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: Yes, but you haven't answered my questions above about the objects of jhana and lokuttara cittas. Mental factors are not given as the objects of arupa jhana cittas. Are you saying that some of the 5th jhana cittas have "infinitude of space" as object and some have different mental factors? ----------------------------------------------- Basically, yes. It may be that there is rapid switching away from jhana and back, but during the (sometimes lengthy) period that one seems to be "in jhana," there is, according to Sariputta, awareness of various namas and not just awareness of the single object associated with the specific jhana. ------------------------------------------- Surely one citta only has one object? ---------------------------------------- I do believe that there is ever only one object of consciousness at any time. ---------------------------------------- What is the object of this jhana citta according to the texts as detailed in the Abhid. and commentaries? Or are you suggesting that the jhana cittas have several objects at once? ---------------------------------------- No, I am not. --------------------------------------- ... Metta Sarah ======================== With metta, Howard Hindrances /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #99810 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Aug 5, 2009 1:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ------------ <. . .> S: > Yes, I think the Buddha taught other aspects of kusala than satipatthana and knew when a gradual teaching was necessary and so on or whether someone was 'ready'. However, even at these times, I'd say we have to keep all the texts in mind and satipatthana is implied, even if not spoken. Only one path.... On the 'ordinary, run of the mill, conversations', friendly greetings and courtesies, no satipatthana mentioned, but as you say, this is the Buddha's teaching, so not the same as when we make those same greetings. So, I think, Ken, we see it very much the same way, but perhaps with a few refinements of phrase? A good topic... -------------- Just as well it is a good topic, because I'm stuck on it! :-) I accept (after a lot of prompting) that the Buddha sometimes taught other kinds of kusala (exclusive of satipatthana). How he did that is another question. It would have to have been without giving the impression of control. Anyway, I am just posting this as a way of getting back into posting mode. :-) Beautiful surfing conditions this week. Must get going now before the tide's too high! Ken H BTW, not wanting to be argumentative, but did the Buddha exchange "friendly greetings?" There is one sutta, isn't there, where he refuses to show the customary deference to an elderly man in case it might be taken the wrong way. (In case the other man was seen as superior in some way.) Hmm, maybe I haven't given that enough thought. Later! KH #99811 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 9:38 pm Subject: One idea: Fuel! bhikkhu0 Friends: One single idea can Enlighten! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there is one particular idea, when a Bhikkhu rightly disgusts this single scheme, rightly detaches from this distinct concept, rightly releases mentally from this sole dependence, rightly sees the final end of this universal condition, having rightly and thoroughly understood this unique idea, then he is one, who makes an end of suffering in this very life! What is this one particular idea? All Beings are sustained by Fuel! When a Bhikkhu rightly disgusts, detaches, & releases from this reliance, and rightly sees the end of this phenomenon by complete comprehension, then he ends all suffering right there and then! The 4 fold Fuel ( Ahara) any process of being burns upon are: 1. Material Food (kabalinkarahara), which maintains the body. 2. Sense Contact (phassa), which feeds feeling and perception. 3. Intention (mano-sañcetana), which constructs kammic rebirth. 4. Consciousness (viññana), which sustains new consciousness. This 'fire' of being, caused by these 5 clusters of clinging: 1: The Cluster of Clinging to Form... 2: The Cluster of Clinging to Feeling... 3: The Cluster of Clinging to Perception… 4: The Cluster of Clinging to Construction… 5: The Cluster of Clinging to Consciousness… is thereby kept burning, since it is sustained by this 4 fold flow of fuel ... Nibbana (Sanskrit: Nirvana), which literally means 'blown out' like a candle, is only reached by extinguishing this fire of being, by denying it new fuel... When all fuel is burned up, any fire stops and becomes peacefully cool! The Fire of becoming is Suffering! Source (edited extract): The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya. [AN V:50-51] http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Acquisition_of_Fuel.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/a/ahara.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/n_r/nibbaana.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_5_Clusters_of_Clinging.htm Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net One idea: Fuel! #99812 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 5, 2009 6:43 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 1, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Patience should be developed not only when the object is unpleasant but also when it is pleasant. When a pleasant object presents itself, usually lobha arises and in that case there is no patience. When, instead of lobha, kusala citta arises there is patience. During this journey we discussed different levels of awareness. Awareness is non-forgetfulness of what is wholesome, kusala. Awareness accompanies generosity, it accompanies kusala citta that is abstaining from ill deeds, it accompanies each kusala citta. Awareness of the level of satipatthåna is directly aware of mental phenomena, nåma, and physical phenomena, rúpa, as they appear one at a time through one of the six doors. The aim of the development of satipatthåna is to see realities as they are: as impermanent, dukkha (suffering) and non-self. Gabi said to Acharn that she was not directly aware yet of nåma and rúpa. She said that she could be aware of akusala citta in the situation of her daily life. She reads Jåtakas (the Buddha’s Birth stories) and she finds that she often is in the same situation as described in the Jåtakas. She read in a Jåtaka story that one should not speak when one is angry and she could apply this in her daily life. When someone’s baby was crying she understood the ugliness of aversion and that was a condition for kusala citta: she would not say anything about the baby’s crying. In the middle of her work she thinks about the teachings and she is reminded to develop kusala. Acharn said to her: “This shows progress in the development of right understanding”. Reading, considering the teachings and moments of awareness condition the development of right understanding. Before we studied the teachings we did not have many moments of awareness of akusala. Now there can be some moments, even if it is not yet at the level of satipatthåna. There can be awareness of realities at different levels. We cannot expect many moments of satipatthåna, right understanding and awareness of nåma and rúpa, but awareness of other levels can arise. The Bodhisatta developed the perfections (påramís) with awareness and right understanding of different levels. We found it very encouraging to hear this. Acharn had said many times before that all kinds of kusala should be cultivated so that sati and the other sobhana cetasikas (beautiful mental factors) can develop and conditions are accumulated for the growth of direct understanding of realities. During this journey it became clearer that awareness and right understanding can arise at this very moment so that it can be known whether there is akusala citta or kusala citta. At this moment patience can be developed. ******* Nina. #99813 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 5, 2009 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. nilovg Dear Ken H, so glad you are back at posting mode. Op 5-aug-2009, om 3:46 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > I accept (after a lot of prompting) that the Buddha sometimes taught > other kinds of kusala (exclusive of satipatthana). How he did that is > another question. It would have to have been without giving the > impression of control. > > Anyway, I am just posting this as a way of getting back into posting > mode. :-) ------ N: It does not have to be a point of argument, what you say. Even when the Buddha just taught the Brahmavihaaras, we have to consider these in daily life. In other words, the citta has to be considered carefully, otherwise we take for mettaa what is selfish affection. It always comes back to citta and cetasikas, to ultimate realities. The Brahmavihaaras should not be taken for self, they arise when there are the right conditions. The listener may not understand this at first but the Buddha knew his accumulations. We cannot fathom the Buddha's wisdom when he preached this or that sutta. Nina. #99814 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 5, 2009 8:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from Sweden sarahprocter... Hi Lukas,(& Ken O) I was glad to see your e-card from Sweden - I know it must be difficult for you to get internet access and I'm looking forward to when you're able to write again. How's Sweden and the work retreat going? It must be very expensive there from what I hear, but I'm sure you can live simply on your retreat:-) Nina answered your qus, but let me add mine too: --- On Tue, 28/7/09, szmicio wrote: >what is the path. the understanding that leads to detachment or detachment that leads to understanding? ... S: How could there be any detachment without any understanding? ... >Should i first stop clinging to things to see realities as they are? ... S: Can you? .... >Should i live in detachment or provide special conditions in order to understand realities? ... S: Does this kind of thinking help the understanding at this moment? ... >There is so much attachment. What can be done with this? ... S: Can anything be "done" with it? Please send another e-card anytime. Ken O is around now (Hi, Ken O:-)) - these are just the kinds of Qus he likes, as I recall, right Ken O? Btw, how are your 'secluded retreats' in Sing and Brunei going? A long 'secluded retreat' from DSG! Good to see you pop back. If you're quick, you can have some challenging discussions with Dan once more... Metta Sarah ====== #99815 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 5, 2009 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (26-27), sutta 26 and commentary. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Scott, Connie & all, --- On Tue, 28/7/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > The subco states that the powers, because of their firm > nature, are a > support for the accompanying dhammas and that they are > absolutely > unshakable. In addition it mentions as powers shame and > fear of blame > (hiri and ottappa). These are unshakable because of the > great power > of kusala dhammas, and the weak nature of akusala dhammas. .... S: I was glad to see this reference to hiri and ottappa because KS sometimes refers to hiri and ottappa as powers as mentioned in the commentaries and I hadn't been able to find it before. Because of the strength of the kusala dhammas, the hiri and ottappa are powers, there is a 'firm' shrinking away from akusala, "seeing harm in the slightest fault" - not the 'shrinking away' with dosa that Azita and I were discussing:-). ... > It is said > ‘with reference to samatha, vipassanaa and magga’ > because they are > among the factors leading to enlightenment (bodhipakkhia > dhammas). ... S: There is so much useful detail in these commentaries. Thank you for sharing it all, Team, and for all the extra notes. Metta Sarah ====== #99816 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Aug 5, 2009 8:58 am Subject: Re: Immediate rebirth sarahprocter... Hi Chris & all, (part 3) --- On Mon, 29/6/09, Christine Forsyth > wrote: >I thought you might be interested in the response from the Venerable Bhikkh Bodhi: ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~ BB:>See too Peter Harvey's book, The Selfless Mind (Curzon) which I refer to in the note below. .... S: ??? .... BB: 65 This fivefold typology of nonreturners recurs at 48:15, 24, 66; 51:26; 54:5; and 55:25. Spk explains the antaaaparinibbaayaa; ("attainer of Nibbaana in the interval") as one reborn in the Pure Abodes who attains arahantship during the first half of the life span. This type is subdivided into three, depending on whether arahantship is reached: (i) on the very day of rebirth; (ii) after one or two hundred aeons have elapsed; or (iii) after four hundred aeons have elapsed. The upahaccaparinibbaayaa; ("attainer of Nibbaana upon landing") is explained as one who attains arahantship after passing the first half of the life span. .... S: So far, No problem... This is the Theravada teaching. .... BB:>For Spk, the asankhaaraparinibbaayaa; ("attainer without exertion") and the sasankhaaraparinibbaayaa; ("attainer with exertion") then become two modes in which the first two types of nonreturners attain the goal. This explanation originates from Pp 16–17 (commented on at Pp-a 198–201). ... S: Again, all agreed. .... BB: >However, not only does this account of the first two types disregard the literal meaning of their names, but it also overrides the sequential and mutually exclusive nature of the five types as delineated elsewhere in the suttas (see below). ... S: Why does it "disregard the literal meaning of their names"? It seems very literally correct to me. Also, where does it say that the 5 types delineated must be "sequential and mutually exclusive"? Is this necessarily so? .... BB: >If we understand the term antaraaparinibbaayaa; literally, as it seems we should, it then means one who attains Nibbaana in the interval between two lives, perhaps while existing in a subtle body in the intermediate state. .... S: I don't think this is the "literal" understanding. I think it's the understanding of those who wish to read about an interval between two lives. For the "literal" understanding, see Ud 1-10, Bahiya Sutta commentary, which I've quoted before: "It is, moreover, wrong on the part of those who seek reference to an intermediate becoming (antaraabhava.m) by seizing upon the phrase ubhayamantarena [in both]. For the existence of an intermediate becoming is altogether rejected in the Abhidhamma. ....Furthermore, those who still say that there is an intermediate becoming by seizing unmethodically upon the meaning of such sutta-passages as `An antaraaparinibbaayin' (eg Aiv70ff) and `Those who are become or those seeking becoming'(Khp8) are to be rebuffed with `there is no (such thing)', since the meaning of the former sutta passage is that he is an antaraaparinibbaayin since he attains parinibbaana (parinibbaayati) by way of remainderles defilement-parinibbana through attaining the topmost path midway (antaraa)[in lifespan]...., whilst the meaning of the latter (sutta-passage) is that those who, in the former word, are spoken of as `those who are become' (bhuutaa), are those in whom the asavas have been destroyed, being those who are merely become, (but) who will not become (again, (whereas the latter,) being the antithesis thereof, (and spoken of as) `those seeking becoming' (sambhavesino) since it is becoming (sambhava.m) that they seek (esenti), are sekhas and puthujjanas on account of the fetters giving rise to becoming not having been abandoned...." S: and this last quote given in Ud-a on the same subject: "For when there is a straightforward meaning that follows the (canonical) Pali, what business is there in postulating an intermediate becoming of unspecified capacity?" Thankfully, this is one area where Suan and I are very much in agreement: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/64835 (to be contd) Metta Sarah ====== #99817 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 5, 2009 1:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation ashkenn2k Dear Dan There is no such thing as temporary control, do not be fooled by it. A child reactions can change does not mean it control it, it means it understand the reailty of the outcome and accumulating tendency will react to the condition that cause that reaction. Just like boiling water scalds the child's fingers. It will not mean that the child control their behaviour not to touch it, it is the understanding of the accumulation of its tendecies that makes the child not to touch. The underlying tendecy is the paccaya. Then comes next, if the underlying tendecy is so powerful, then what is the point of learning dhamma. Underlying tendency is like the propensity to spend on products, it influences strongly the behaviour of a customer to purchase a product but it is not the decision/thinking. Citta is the one who will make the decision/thinking with the influence of the accumulations and the underlying tendency. Then with the help of attention and other cetasikas, it would condition the next citta. Making decision is not a control. It is again easy to be fooled that decision/thinking is a control. Decision/thinking is just another function of the citta which itself is anatta. Cheers Ken O #99818 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 5, 2009 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from Sweden ashkenn2k Dear Sarah as always, you like to interest me to stay longer :-) hahaha. Dear Lukas Your sound confounding. You are in a dilemma on detachment and understanding, attachment and detachment. In fact, there are just two side of the coins. I always have this simple rule, first come understanding then come detachment. Without understanding, one cannot understand the reality of attachment and how it condition the grasping. Detachment is not going to the wilderness alone or seating in the forest contemplating the world. As long as the three aksuala roots are not eradicated, no matter where you run or how you want to be alone, it will haunt you. Instead we should brace ourselves, understanding our realities of cittas, cetasikas and how they condition each other. When we face attachment as it arises, understanding it as anicca, dukkha and anatta in the present moment, this is developing understand to achieve detachment. Again understanding attachment is developing detachment. Cheers Ken O #99819 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Aug 5, 2009 2:11 pm Subject: Re: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (26-27), sutta 26 and commentary. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Azita, connie, Nina, All, Regarding: N: "The subco states that the powers, because of their firm nature, are a support for the accompanying dhammas and that they are absolutely unshakable. In addition it mentions as powers shame and fear of blame (hiri and ottappa). These are unshakable because of the great power of kusala dhammas, and the weak nature of akusala dhammas." S: "I was glad to see this reference to hiri and ottappa because KS sometimes refers to hiri and ottappa as powers as mentioned in the commentaries and I hadn't been able to find it before. Because of the strength of the kusala dhammas, the hiri and ottappa are powers, there is a 'firm' shrinking away from akusala, 'seeing harm in the slightest fault' - not the 'shrinking away' with dosa that Azita and I were discussing:-)." Scott: 'Conscious experience' is not to be trusted, is what this makes me think about. The dosa which leads to the feeling of 'shrinking away' is disguised by the time we are thinking about it. This is, I think, due to it's rapidity. By then, we can think of ourselves as pious and satisfied. This is how one can say things like: 'It's better to have the appearance of wholesomeness, than to face the fact of ongoing unwholesomeness.' Or: 'Even if it's akusala that is at the base of my apparent turning away from sin, I'd rather that than the real thing because then I can at least think of myself someone who is avoiding 'sin' by-hook-or-by-crook.' These would be my paraphrase of various arguments I've read over time which are given to counter the straw-man and so-called DSG position of saying that, due to anatta and the fact that there is no controlling of dhammaa, 'anything goes.' The fact is, it's better to realize that a turning away due to dosa is already akusala, and just leads to more. Thoughts about being a 'bad person' or a 'good person' are of no use, while common enough. I'd imagine that hiri and ottappa are equally rapid but, being kusala, would 'feel' totally different to sati - were it to be developed enough. I'd imagine that when these arise the 'turning away' is immediate and, as noted when these are at the strength of powers, there is no akusala - it happens naturally - there can be no such dhammaa when these are functioning as powers. They simply don't arise. So I imagine, at any rate... Sincerely, Scott. #99820 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Aug 5, 2009 4:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hi Ken O, It's nice to hear from you. K: There is no such thing as temporary control, do not be fooled by it. A child reactions can change does not mean it control it, it means it understand the reailty of the outcome and accumulating tendency will react to the condition that cause that reaction. Just like boiling water scalds the child's fingers. It will not mean that the child control their behaviour not to touch it, it is the understanding of the accumulation of its tendecies that makes the child not to touch. The underlying tendecy is the paccaya. --> I'm sure Howard won't mind if I borrow his great response: "You say tomato, and I say tomahto!" -Dan #99821 From: "Chew" Date: Wed Aug 5, 2009 4:54 pm Subject: Re: space, continued. Part 2. chewsadhu Dear Sarah and all, S: (Again, apologies for the long delay) - - - C: I think I am the one who really need to apology for my long delay. Again, I am really enjoying to study the Dhamma with you and learn from you all. Below are the points that I would like to share with all my Dhamma friends here. Please let me know, if I am wrong. Thanks and Sadhu. Fish swims in the water. In ultimate sense, water is full of utusamut.t.haana-kalaapaa and space-element (aakaasa dhaatu). Fish still able to swim. Birds fly in the sky. There are oxygen in the air. Oxygen are utusamut.t.haana-kalaapaa + space-element (aakaasa dhaatu) in the ultimate sense. Deity stays in the tree. The tree is utusamut.t.haana-kalaapaa + space-element (aakaasa dhaatu) in the ultimate sense. It is a space for Deity to stay, but not for other beings. How about outer space, where there has no oxygen. But is there temperature? If there is temperature, that means, there are fire-elements (tejodhaatu). If there are fire-elements, there are utusamut.t.haana-kalaapaa + space-element (aakaasa dhaatu). For my opinion, one cannot find a place without ruupa in human realm. One also cannot find a place with only ¡°the unconditioned aakaasa ruupa of the 'open' spaces¡±. (Ordinary human beings wouldn't be able to walk through the desk, but not other beings.) When one is breathing, air enters through nostril. It does not mean that there are no air in the nostril before one breath-in. The air is also utusamut.t.haana-kalaapaa + space-element (aakaasa dhaatu) in the ultimate sense. It does not mean that if take away the utusamut.t.haana-kalaapaa + space-element (aakaasa dhaatu), the remaining are ¡°the unconditioned aakaasa ruupa of the 'open' spaces¡±. The empty cup can be filled-up with water. The space in the empty cup, is ¡°space (vivara)¡±. It is an idea or concept in conventional sense. Air is still in the empty cup. The air is utusamut.t.haana-kalaapaa + space-element (aakaasa dhaatu) in the ultimate sense. One cannot find an unconditioned dhamma in the sa.msaara. Nibbaana is only the object of the lokuttaracitta. Even the lokuttaracitta itselves are also conditioned dhamma, they arise and cease. In the ultimate sense, concept does not exist. So, in the ultimate sense, Nibbaana is the only unconditioned dhamma. And the remaining are only conditioned dhamma, which are citta, cetasika, and ruupa. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #99822 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 5, 2009 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from Sweden and revisit Sisters nilovg Dear Ken O (and Lukas), I like the way you express this. Op 5-aug-2009, om 15:50 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Detachment is not going to the wilderness alone or seating in the > forest contemplating the world. As long as the three aksuala roots > are not eradicated, no matter where you run or how you want to be > alone, it will haunt you. > > Instead we should brace ourselves, understanding our realities of > cittas, cetasikas and how they condition each other. When we face > attachment as it arises, understanding it as anicca, dukkha and > anatta in the present moment, this is developing understand to > achieve detachment. > > Again understanding attachment is developing detachment. ------- N: Yes, because ignorance is the forerunner of all evil as is said in the Co to Sa"nghaatheriigaathaa. Through the development of understanding ignorance will be eradicated. The only solution to all our problems is developing more understanding. < Giving up son (putta.m), cattle, and whatever was dear to me means: through abandoning the desire and passion connected with these, she abandoned what is to be held dear: her sons (putte) and cattle, buffalo and cows, etc. Giving up desire and hatred means: through the noble path she abolished desire, which has the nature of being passionate, and hatred, which has the nature of being evil. And discarding ignorance means: and having become dispassionate, through the path she destroyed delusion, which is a forerunner of all that is unwholesome. (sabbaakusalesu pubba"ngama.m moha~nca viraajetvaa ) It is to be understood thus. The meaning of the rest has been explained.> ------- I heard another good reminder : the study of Dhamma is not the study of names. It is developing understanding of the characteristics that appear. Nina. #99823 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 12:58 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: space, continued. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (Chew, Ken O & all), --- On Tue, 4/8/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >I am still having quite a lot of trouble with the texts in relation to unconditioned akaasa. Little by little I shall go over these. Today it is Katavatthu. .... S: Good idea to go over the texts. Let's do it together. .... [S: As an aside, just looking at the English above, assuming the first is referring to paricchedha aakaasa ruupa, I'm surprised it doesn't read: "confining or delimiting". "Confined or delimited" would have the opposite meaning, as confined or delimited, as in ear etc. The space that separates kalapas is not "confined or delimited" space.] ]Op 3-aug-2009, om 12:56 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: >N: What is it exactly that the Uttaraapathakas and Mahi.msaasakas held and what exactly was rejected as non-Theravada? My problem is that one can interprete texts in different ways. But these are things I am just unable to solve. I feel like Han: too much for my remaining days. .... S: I think it's a good question to find out exactly what the context of the debate is by understanding what the wrong view proposed was. I understand these were included in the sects of monks that broke away from the Theravada teachings at the 3rd Council. I think this comes from the introduction: "In the polemics of the Kathavatthu the most prominent schools, according to the commentator Buddhaghosa, are the Theravadins, the Sammitlyas, the Mahimsasakas, the Sab- batthavadins, and the Mahasamghikas. But more frequently than these the names ANDHAKA and UTTARAPATHAKA are employed, in which Buddhaghosa evidently comprises the South Indian and North Indian sects." I had a discussion a long time ago with Rahula and believe it may be relevant. You may find it of interest. In #81060, Rahula quoted the following text with questions: >R: Kathavatthu 19.5 Of 'Thusness' Controverted Point - That the fundamental characteristic of all things (sabba-dhamma) are unconditioned. From the Commentary - Some, like the Uttarapathakas, hold that there is an immutable something called thusness (or suchness) in the very nature of all things, material or otherwise [taken as a whole]. And because this 'thusness' is not included in the [particular] conditioned matter, etc., itself, therefore it is unconditioned. [1] Th - Do you then identify those fundamental characteristic or 'thusness' with Nibbana, the Shelter.....the Goal, the Past- deceased, the Ambrosial? Or are there two 'unconditioned's'? You deny both alternatives [but you must assent to one or the other]. If to the latter, I ask, are there two kinds of Shelter and so on? And is there a boundary or.....interstice between them? [2] Again, assuming a materiality (rupata) of matter or body, is not materiality unconditioned? You assent. Then I raise the same difficulties as before. [3] I raise them, too, if you admit a 'hedonality' of feeling, a 'perceivability' of perception, a sankharata or co-efficiency of mental co-efficients, a consciousness of being conscious. If all these be unconditioned, are there then six categories of 'unconditioned's'? [4] U. - But if I am wrong, is the 'thusness' of all things the five aggregates [taken together]? Th - Yes. U. - Then that 'thusness' of all things is unconditioned.< ----------- NEW S: Rahula then wrote: R:> Can someone help me to understand this passage? I am in the lost. >I was told the Uttarapathakas introduce the concept of unconditioned, immutable 'thusness' (tathata). And the passage refutes such view. >So 'thusness' (tathata), according to Theravidins is conditioned? Then how do you explained Tathagata? Isn't Nibbana, therefore Tathagata, unconditioned? >Is my understanding correct to say that for the Theravidins, the 'thusness' of all things = the five aggregates? <...> NEW S: From my reply: #81154 <...> >S: There is lots of detail given on the meaning of 'Tathaagata' in the translation of the commentary to the Cariya Pitaka which B.Bodhi adds at the end of 'The All-Embracing Net of Views' (BPS). From this detail we can learn more about the qualities of the Buddha and the nature of realities (tathadhamme). One of the reasons for being called Tathaagata is: "because he has come to the real characteristic (of dhammas)" [tathalakkha.na"m]. This refers to the knowledge of all realities, all dhammas, i.e the 5 khandhas and nibbana. Another reason given is "because he has awakened to real dhammas in accordance with actuality"[tathadhamme yaathaavato abhisambuddho]. He has realised the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. It also says it is "because he is a seer of the real" [tathadassitaaya]. This is pointing to the scope and range of his knowledge of realities. He is also said to be "the speaker of the real" [tathavaaditaaya]. This of course refers to the truth of all he teaches. Much more detail and further explanations are given, but in each case 'tatha' refers to realities or 'the real'. It's made very clear that the real characteristics of dhammas which he has discovered refers to the elements, i.e namas and rupas, not to concepts of any kind. "All these characteristics (S: of the elements, khandhas, factulties, lokuttara dhammas, D.O. etc) are real, not unreal. Through the movement of his faculty of knowledge he has come to the real characteristics (of all dhammas)." Here's another quote I like: "The analytical derivation of the word "Tathaagata" should be understood thus: he goes to (gacchati) - i.e., he sees and knows - these dhammas beginning with the visible form object, in the very way (tathaa) they exist win their specific nature and mode." The word "Tathaagata" is also said to contain "the entire practice of the Dhamma as well as all the qualities of a Buddha." If we understand the realities being pointed to, starting with visible object, the entire practice will be apparent. There is no other reality or "thusness" (as the Uttarapathakas and many others today held/hold)of some underlying 'wholeness' of khandhas together. There are just distinct conditioned elements or khandhas arising and falling away and the unconditioned element, nibbana. .... >The word "Tathagata" designates all the qualities of the Buddha. > Then how do you explained Tathagata? Isn't Nibbana, therefore > Tathagata, unconditioned? ... >S: See above for Tathagata. No, nibbana is not 'Tathagata'. Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma which the Tathagata realized. Here's another quote from the same source above: "Furthermore, he is the Tathaagata because he has 'gone through reality' (tathaaya gata) and because he has 'really gone' (tatha"m gata). Here 'gone' (gata) has the meanings of undergone (avagata), gone beyond (atta), attained (patta), and practised (pa.tipanna). Thus he is the Tathaagata because he has gone through - i.e. undergone -reality by fully understanding the entire world [i.e Noble Truth of suffering] through the scrutinization (of its essential characteristics, as impermanent, suffering, and not-self). He is the Tathaagata because he has gone through - i.e. gone beyond - reality by fully understanding the world through the abandonment of its origin.......realizing the cessation of the world.....practised - the way leading to the cessation of the world...." ... <...> > Is my understanding correct to say that for the Theravidins, > the 'thusness' of all things = the five aggregates? ... >S: All dhammas, all realities including nibbana as I understand. Each khandha, each reality has to be understood in the very way (tathaa) it appears with its particular characteristic. So visible object has to be understood as distinct from seeing consciousness. Sound has to be understood as distinct from hearing.< **** NEW S: In other words, I believe the reference to open (aja.ta) space, refers to the wrong idea of the 'thusness' of all things, an idea of a whole, being unconditioned. As the text points out, this is merely a concept, not a reality. As the summary of the commentary just quoted said, they believe there is "an immutable something called thusness (or suchness) in the very nature of all things, material or otherwise [taken as a whole]. And because this 'thusness' is not included in the [particular] conditioned matter, etc., itself, therefore it is unconditioned." This has nothing at all to do with the unconditioned aakaasa ruupa being discussed, as I see it. I hope this helps a little with this text. Please raise any further issues with this text or the next one. Metta Sarah ========= #99824 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 3:17 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (05) ptaus1 Hi Nina, Sarah, Han, all, Hope it's ok to join in on this slightly older topic: > The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. > Introduction (continuation) > There are not only rúpas of the body, there are also rúpas which are the material phenomena outside the body. What we take for rocks, plants or houses are rúpas and these originate from temperature. ... But what we call soil, light and moisture are, when we are more precise, different combinations of rúpas, none of which can arise without the element of heat or temperature that produces them. Rúpas outside the body are only produced by temperature, not by kamma, citta or nutrition. > pt: 1. I also found it hard to understand how is it that external rupas are produced solely by temperature, until I considered that it is perhaps - change in temperature - which in fact produces rupas. Then it kind of starts to make sense - plants grow with increasing spring warmth, and then die with coming winter colds. Rocks crack and shatter if the changes in daily temperature are too abrupt. Etc. So, would - change in temperature - be a correct understanding regarding temperature producing external rupas? 2. What causes changes in the four great elements of external rupas? For example, what causes change in temperature element? I suspect it might be one of the niyamas, but I'm not sure. 3. Since temperature element produces external rupas, why is then the earth element considered the foundation for the other three elements, and not temperature? My guess is that the functions of production (temperature) and foundation (earth) are simply different, but I'm not sure. Thanks p.s. I've had very limited internet access over the last several months, so I'm about 1900 posts behind with my reading. It seems I missed out on many good discussions, so I hope it's ok to resurrect some of these older topics with my questions as I try to catch up. Best wishes, pt #99825 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 8:03 am Subject: Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" sarahprocter... Hi Connie (Alex & all), --- On Sun, 2/8/09, connie > wrote: >>C: Could this "intemediate state" be considered a form of "post-mortem survival"? > > Brahmajaala Sutta > 2.38. 'There are, monks, some ascetics and Brahmins who [31] proclaim a doctrine of Conscious Post-Mortem Survival, and who do so in sixteen different ways. On what basis? > [Wrong views 19-34] .... >C: B.Bodhi uses 'Doctrines of Percipient Immortality' for Sa~n~niivaada. .... S: Just to clarify, I assume you saying that it is Sa~n~niivaada here translated as 1)Conscious Post-Mortem Survival and 2) 'Doctrines of Percipient Immortality'? .... >>C:Net of Views; Sutta: << 76. "They proclaim: 'The self is immutable after death, percipient, and: A. 1. material 2. immaterial 3. both material and immaterial 4. neither material nor immaterial B. 1. finite 2. infinite 3. both finite and infinite 4. neither finite nor infinite C. 1. of uniform perception 2. of diversified perception 3. of limited perception 4. of boundless perception D. 1. exclusively happy 2. exclusively miserable 3. both happy and miserable 4. neither happy nor miserable.' 77. "It is one these sixteen grounds, bhikkhus, that those recluses and brahmins who maintain a doctrine of percipient immortality proclaim the self to survive percipient after death. >> .... S: Yes, I'm sure this Intermediate State adherence all comes down to a "Self-Survival" of some kind, which I'm sure is your point too. To re-quote the following from an old discussion we had for those who have another point: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22272 S: Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy), Bk V111,2,"Of an Intermediate State',discusses in detail why the proposition "that there is an intermdiate state of existence" is not valid. From the commentary: "Some (as, for instance, the Pubbaseliyas and Sammitiyas), by a careless acceptation of the Sutta-phrase - `completed existence within the interval' - held that there is an interm stage where a being awaits reconception for a week or longer. The counter-argument is based on the Exalted One's dictum that there are three states of becoming only - the Kama-, the Rupa-, and the Arupa-worlds . And it is because of that dictum that the opponent (in so far as he is orthodox) has to deny so many of the questions." ".........Here the sense is this: If there be such a state as an intermediate state of becoming, then it must be a `five-mode becoming' etc., such as Kama-life, and so forth. Let us then ask you: "Do you identify the intermediate state with either the Kama-life, or Rupa-life, or Arupa-life?" All these the opponent denies, because he would not admit such things. "The expressions "either of the Kama-life" and so forth have been brought forth in order that, if there be an intermediate state, it must be between these states of becoming, like an interval between two boundaries. The opponent who would not admit such things, denies all these questions. Thus he refuses the Sakavadin's "indeed" simply for his view, but not in accordance with the doctrine." Metta Sarah ======= #99826 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 8:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (05) sarahprocter... Hi pt, Just in passing, great to see you back! I've missed all your good Abhi discussions. --- On Thu, 6/8/09, ptaus1 wrote: >p.s. I've had very limited internet access over the last several months, so I'm about 1900 posts behind with my reading. It seems I missed out on many good discussions, so I hope it's ok to resurrect some of these older topics with my questions as I try to catch up. .... S: Please resurrect any old discussions anytime....never too late! For catching up with a large backlog, you might find it easier to scroll through the archives on www.dhammastudygroup.org. This can also be downloaded for reading off-line if it helps. Look f/w to discussing Dhamma later... Metta Sarah ======= #99827 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 8:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth jonoabb Hi Scott (and Mike) (99789) > =============== > Scott: I feel a bit anxious now, having paraphrased Mike, and am probably getting him wrong - apologies, Mike - all errors are mine. > > The point I feel he clarified was that the very difficult thing nowadays might be not be jhaana per se, although he was clear that attaining jhaana in one's spare time at home or at a yearly retreat was likely an impossibility. > > He speculated that there even might still be 'competent' (my word) jhaana-yogis - not likely in the west - in the world today. > =============== Right. We cannot preclude that possibility, especially given that the jhanas are known outside the dispensation. =============== He suggested that the commentaries don't seem to state that jhaana itself won't be attainable in modern times, as I was suggesting, but that jhaana/vipassanaa attainment will be very difficult. =============== Yes, this is my understanding of the general effect of the commentaries. =============== > So, jhaana is difficult to attain - this is, I believe the case. The more difficult thing might be the use of jhaana-citta by pa~n~naa - and this, I surmise, might reflect the level of accumulations in the pool, as it were. =============== Right. Insight with jhana as basis is of a different order altogether to jhana: one is the highest level of attainment of enlightenment, while the other is highly developed samatha. =============== > Hope this clarifies and again, apologies, Mike, if I've misunderstood you. I take all the blame and recriminations upon me. ;-) Ouch. =============== Thanks for taking the trouble to clarify (on Mike's behalf). Jon #99828 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 8:30 am Subject: Re: The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 8. jonoabb Hi Connie (and Alex) Many thanks for the sutta and commentary passages. (99796) > =============== > > In order to get into Jhana in the first place, a certain level of insight is needed as well. > > This is an interesting view (which surprises, me coming from you ;-)) What is the textual basis for it? > > ======== > I think, no rule of order, but here are some quotes anyway: > > Connected Discourses, V vi 9(9) Analysis (1) > "Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. > And what, bhikkhus, is the faculty of concentration? Here, bhikkhus, the noble disciple gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object. *{194} This is called the faculty of concentration. > > > * Connected Discourses, V. note 194: > Vossaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa. Spk glosses: "having made Nibbaana the object". Pa.tis II 96-97 uses the expression in explicating the phrase, "[one] develops serenity preceded by insight" (vipassanaapubba"ngama.m samatha.m bhaaveti; AN II 157, 10-11): "Insight has the sense of contemplation as impermanent, as suffering, as nonself. Concentration is nondistraction, one-pointedness of mind having as object release of the phenomena produced therein (tattha jaataana.m dhammaana~n ca vossaggaaramma.nataa cittassa ekaggataa avikkhepo samaadhi). Thus first comes insight, afterwards serenity." > On this Pa.tis-a III 586-87 comments: "The phenomena produced therein: the phenomena of mind and mental factors produced by that insight. Having as object release: here release is Nibbaana, for Nibbaana is called release because it is the releasing of the conditioned, its relinquishment. Insight and the phenomena associated with it have Nibbaana as object, Nibbaana as support, because they are established on Nibbaana as their support in the sense of slanting towards it by way of inclination ... Concentration is nondistraction distinguished into access and absorption (upacaarappanaabhedo avikkhepo), consisting in the one-pointedness of mind aroused by being established on Nibbaana, with that as cause by taking as object release of the phenomena produced therein. Concentration partaking of penetration (nibbedhabhaagiyo samaadhi), aroused subsequent to insight, is described." > > =============== I'm not exactly sure of the meaning here, but it seems to be referring to the concentration that accompanies enlightenment as being a condition for the concentration that arises subsequently. Any thoughts of your own? ===============> > Pts: Yuganaddhavaggo, Treatise XI: > > 'Friends, bhikkhus, when any bhikkhu or bhikkhuni declares in my presence to have reached arahantship, it is always by four paths or by one or other of them. What four? > > 'Here a bhikkhu develops insight preceded by serenity. > > > < > 'Again a bhikkhu develops serenity preceded by insight. As he does so, the path is produced in him. He repeats, develops and makes much of that path. As he does so, his fetters are abandoned, and his underlying tendencies are exterminated. =============== This seems to describe a person for whom jhana is attained only after enlightenment. Is this how you read it? Jon #99830 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 8:33 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Dan (99797) > =============== > J: If pariyatti was "memorization with the primary purpose of preserving the dispensation", then it would not be a level of understanding (panna). > > --> Ah, but you must mean "type" rather than "level", no? E.g., you can get to a deeper and deeper level of intellectual understanding and never make a jump to even a shallow level of direct understanding. Or you may have a shallow level intellectual understanding and a deep level of direct understanding. > =============== I'm confused. Are you now using "intellectual understanding" as a translation of pariyatti? ;-)) To recap: We were discussing those things that must be heard about and grasped at an intellectual (as opposed to a direct) level in order for direct understanding to arise. Call it what you will, this is a gradation of panna of the type/kind that is satipatthana (the other type/kind being panna of samatha/jhana). So I think "level" is an appropriate term. These 2 levels -- "intellectual" and "direct" -- are mutually supportive, so that any increase in one is a condition for a possible increase in the other. > =============== > J: But putting aside the question of the meaning of pariyatti, the more important issue for us is to identify those things mentioned by the Buddha as being necessary to be heard and grasped before there can be the arising of awareness and direct understanding (whatever term we may use to describe these). > > --> One issue is "to identify those things...necessary", and another is understanding what sort of "grasping" is necessary. What is necessary to grasp is any one of the tilakkhana, which are just three sides of the same coin. What is necessary to hear varies from person to person: khandas, ayatanas, dhatus, cittas, etc. Who knows? =============== Given that it is the khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus, cittas, etc (and not the conventional objects of the world) that exhibit the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anattaa, I would say that everyone needs to hear quite a lot about these dhammas. ===============> > > J: Memorization of lists has never been suggested as being a necessary prerequisite for the arising of awareness and direct understanding (in case you're implying it has been ;-)) > > --> No, no. No one here advocates memorizing lists, but the texts do--sometimes, for some people. =============== Hmm, I'm not sure about this. What would be the connection between the memorizing of lists and the development of awareness/insight? =============== Here, there is much more advocacy of "detailed intellectual understanding." That's fine, but when it morphs into the polemics of "meditation bad; grasping good", the way gets lost. =============== Just a point here in case there's any misunderstanding. "Intellectual understanding" is not to be confused with "theoretical knowledge". The latter is the product of book study, while the former are those things knowledge of which is a prerequisite to direct understanding. Since you bring up mediation, another point of clarification: If it's anything that was taught by the Buddha, it can't be "bad" ;-)). Jon #99831 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 8:36 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Dan (99798) > =============== > --> That's right. The control is limited and temporary, but it is not non-existent. With practice, the control can become stronger and stronger, but it can never change the fundamental characteristics of reality and overcome the tilakkhana. > =============== Yes, it's fine to say that in the everyday sense there are degrees of control. But that control is only there if the conditions for it have been developed in the first place (and once those conditions no longer pertain, any apparent control will be lost). Jon #99832 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 8:49 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 1, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn reminded us time and again to develop understanding of daily realities. One may be merely thinking of the Dhamma and not pay attention to all the akusala cetasikas (unwholesome mental factors that can accompany akusala citta) which arise in one’s daily life. Acharn said that people want to have great patience, but forget to develop patience at this moment. Paññå, understanding, should become refined so that also the more subtle akusala can be known. At the moment of understanding, the citta is kusala. We read in “As it was said” (Itivuttaka, The Twos, Ch II, § 2) that the Buddha said to the monks: “Monks, two dhamma-teachings of the Wayfarer Arahat, a rightly awakened one, take place one after the other. What two? ‘Look at akusala as akusala’ is the first dhamma-teaching. ‘Seeing akusala as akusala, be disgusted with it, be cleansed of it, be freed of it’ is the second dhamma-teaching. These two dhamma-teachings of the Wayfarer take place one after the other. This is the meaning... Of the Wayfarer, the awakened one, Who has compassion on all beings, Behold the way of speech and the two teachings: See akusala for what it is, and then Conceive disgust for it: with heart made pure Of akusala, you shall make an end of dukkha.” After Acharn’s explanation about awareness and understanding we see more clearly that what is stated in this text occurs in daily life. While we walked around the tombs of the Egyptian kings, or while we had to sit for a long time in the bus or at the airport we became tired. Alan was wondering whether tiredness is bodily or mental. Acharn asked him, “Do you like it to be tired?” Alan answered that he did not like it and then it became clear that he had aversion. Usually akusala citta with aversion arises when we feel tired. We use tiredness as an excuse not to develop kusala at such a moment but, Acharn said, it is no excuse. When we we have no understanding of realities, tiredness can condition akusala. When we have to wait a long time for dinner and we become faint with hunger, or the shower in the hotel room does not work, we can ask ourselves, “Do we like this?” Then we can know how much aversion we have; we begin to see akusala as akusala and to understand its disadvantage. When we give in to aversion we only think of ourselves. Whereas when we think of others kusala citta with patience arises. ****** Nina. #99833 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 9:46 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (05) nilovg Dear Alberto, As Sarah says, it is very good to raise old topics, which are actually never too old. Your remarks are always welcome. Op 6-aug-2009, om 5:17 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > 1. I also found it hard to understand how is it that external rupas > are produced solely by temperature, until I considered that it is > perhaps - change in temperature - which in fact produces rupas. > Then it kind of starts to make sense - plants grow with increasing > spring warmth, and then die with coming winter colds. Rocks crack > and shatter if the changes in daily temperature are too abrupt. Etc. > > So, would - change in temperature - be a correct understanding > regarding temperature producing external rupas? ------- N: Change in temperature: we say this in conventional language, but change in the ultimate sense is different. The latter is arising and falling away at each splitsecond. The ruupa that is heat produces other ruupas, but that heat and the ruupas it produces fall away all the time. Ruupas that have fallen away are being replaced and we do not notice momentary change, but after a while we can say: there is a change and then we think of 'stories' of growing plants, split rocks. -------- > > A: 2. What causes changes in the four great elements of external > rupas? For example, what causes change in temperature element? I > suspect it might be one of the niyamas, but I'm not sure. -------- N: It is their impermanence at each moment. We can think of the Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant’s Footprint” (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 28). I quote from my 'Physical Phenomena' : “There comes a time, your reverences, when the element of extension that is external is agitated; at that time the external element of extension disappears. The impermanence of this ancient external element of extension can be shown, your reverences, its liability to destruction can be shown, its liability to decay can be shown, its liability to change can be shown. So what of this shortlived body derived from craving? There is not anything here for saying, ‘I’, or ‘mine’ or ‘I am’....” The impermanence of the element of solidity may manifest itself in such calamities of nature as an earthquake, but actually at each and every moment rúpas arise and then fall away, they do not last. ------ > A: 3. Since temperature element produces external rupas, why is > then the earth element considered the foundation for the other > three elements, and not temperature? My guess is that the functions > of production (temperature) and foundation (earth) are simply > different, but I'm not sure. ------- N: When we think of the four great Elements that arise together they condition one another and they each have their own function. Earth which is hard, acts as their foundation, and heat maintains them. When we speak of the capability of producing other ruupas, this is another aspect. The ruupa that is heat cannot produce other ruupas at its arising moment since it is then too weak. Only during the moments of its presence. The heat element present in a group of the four Great Elements and the other four ruupas which form together the eight inseparables, can produce another octad. I quote again: I do not know whether this answers all your questions. Nina. #99834 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 12:28 pm Subject: Re: Pull my finger, was: Eyes closed scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding (Dig it): I. Wordscape-cut-and-paste-UPPER-CASE-sample-remix. FIND...COGNIZE...DAMN, AREN'T I THE ULTIMATE HERETIC, AREN'T I A DUPLICATION OF THIS EGYPTIAN PHAROAH THAT CHANGED THE ENTIRE EGYPTIAN PROCESS PSYCHOLOGY TO THAT OF WORSHIPPING A SINGLE SUN GOD, A RA, AND HE MOVED THE ENTIRE MANUFACTURING PROCESS FROM THE FACILITY CALLED THEBES TO A NEW TOWN THAT HE HIMSELF BUILT...IN FACT, I ALWAYS BEGIN MY MAGIKAL EXSTRAVAGANZAS BY CLEARLY POINTING OUT THAT I CANNOT CHANGE THE WORLD AND IT IS YOU, MY PEERS, THAT HAVE TO PARTICIPATE WITH ME IN ORDER TO BRING ABOUT CHANGE. WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. THERE IS NO MISTAKE, THERE IS NO EXCLUSION AND INCLUSION, IT'S ONE SINGLE ENTITY...INTENTIONALLY...USNAVY...EVEN IN BUDDHISM...LABEL ...THE STATUS QUO...POTENTENTIAL REALITY...THERAVADAN...NO...THEY ARE ESOTERIC...THEY ARE ADVACED...AHA...EXCLUSION and ISOLATIONISM II. "Wordscape sample-in-quotation remix" ..."pick & choose"..."LIve"..."I'd Like To Change The World"... "process psychological"..."guided meditation"..."Guided Meditation" III. Wordscape sample me myself and I remix. it's a problem I have...I will say that...my ability...I have chosen...my lack of ability...my name...my state of bliss...I am experiencing at this moment...I have to...I am honoered...I can clearly recall...I am not about to chan ge anything...I have never ever been able to discontect the song from my consciousness...I recall...I did not allow...I participated with people...I did not know...I am a very blatant heretic...I am the heretical figure...I'm gonna print this...I bring forth...I don't have to give you cognition...I have no claims to IV Wordscape sample what's in a name noun remix. John Banks...10 Years After...Tijuana...American sailor...Niguma ...Aleister Crowley...Niguma... V Wordscape sample random poetic prose remix/[elaboration/collaboration/punctuation]. [Oh,]to be in such illustrious company, dragging my fellow shipmates over the border. [They who] glorified their hallucinations of the reality of the [real] as being something that it was not, it was never, and it will never be. [We ask:] Is it some plastic manifestation of reality? [No, alas,] this is a practice of the Caste System and it's slaves, robots. colette: "Anatta? What? This is a very common problem with the neophyte that begins the path and is first dealt this REALITY OF A NON-SELF! Anatta, how absurd. Okay, the self either exists or it does not exist. How can a person be "placed" in any position if that person has never had the chance to exist and does not exist? Where is the opportunity to place this person, this RUPA, IN TIME?" Scott: I agree with your tendency above to question the placing of 'person' with ruupa or, conversely, with the illusory miasma of temporality. c: "[see this is what i spoke of earlier, I am working on Yoga Nidra and have found my 'theory of karma' applicable as well as my theory of THE LAST LAUGH, but this is a side point which characterizes the post here.]" Scott: Characteristic side-post karmic laughter. c: "It is good that you raised this issue since now you can examine the reality of CAUSATION which is the foundation of the Abhidaharma." Scott: True, I find conditionality to be difficult to understand. c: "Personally, I don't know how to explain it other than I have the most extraordinary need to work with people and to always work to a better end. I have often made the statement in the Golden Dawn that "I cannot see or cognize this thing people call 'EVIL'." What is evil? For instance how can murder be claimed to be evil if that is the only function of the CASTE SYSTEM? Why do people devote themselves to MURDER by pledging slavery to a CASTE when they know that murder is worng?" Scott: I don't know. Perhaps a need to work with people, taking them as illusory referents, simply again points to the recurring wholesomeness you are blessed to encounter arising within 'you'. I think this is often apparent. Good, good, good. c: "It's nothing more than a procedure and a process psychology." Scott: Wholesomeness is what it is. c: "Scott, you and Howard have hit upon me at a splendid time of extreme physical stresses within my body, in my meditations. I must put forth a post that I was working on at home, and I know that post will totally work with this post, so I am gonna PLAY IT BY EAR, and, AS TOTALLY TYPICAL, SHOOT FROM THE HIP." Scott: Hopefully, refractory periods notwithstanding, you are well again. c: "YOU two have given me a great perspective upon which to analyse the dharmas EXCEPT, I was working on the PAST DHARMA'S relationship to the PRESENT DHARMA, through the cognition of a FORMLESS CONSCIOUSNESS i.e. yoga nidra. Bless you both." Scott: Thank you, colette. Sincerely, Scott. #99835 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 9:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Connie & Alex, and all) In a message dated 8/6/2009 4:04:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Connie (Alex & all), ============================== One thought, and one conjecture: 1) Except for simple curiosity and love of the dramatic, I don't see why anyone should care very much about this matter, for it has no obvious bearing on awakening and the cessation of dukkha. 2) As one possibility, might not what is referred to as an intermediary state be a non-universal matter but, instead, an instance of a more or less short-lived existence as a peta for certain beings? That realm of experience might be home not only to generally greedy, sensuous types, but also for a greater or briefer period, to those who are, for one reason or another, desperately desirous of remaining in their prior "earthly" state [for example, to finish "unfinished business" or to act out of concern for loved ones "left behind," or to get revenge], and also to those who are simply confused as to what has happened and are looking to reestablish their "normal" circumstances, but are "lost." (Just a thought.) With metta, Howard Dukkha All around me are familiar faces Worn out places, worn out faces Bright and early for their daily races Going nowhere, going nowhere Their tears are filling up their glasses No expression, no expression Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow No tomorrow, no tomorrow And I find it kind of funny I find it kind of sad The dreams in which I'm dying Are the best I've ever had I find it hard to tell you I find it hard to take When people run in circles It's a very, very Mad World Mad world (Song Lyric, Mad World) #99836 From: "Chew" Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 3:16 pm Subject: MP3 Visuddhimagga Talks - part 01A chewsadhu Dear Nina and Sarah, Below are some points that I got from Sayadaw U Silananda's points. {01a-visuddhimagga01.mp3} – Brief introduction {01a-visuddhimagga02.mp3} – Brief introduction {01a-visuddhimagga03.mp3} (pp.1, para.1) – (pp.2, para.6) 1.(pp.2, para.5) "... it is the means of approach that is called the path." → "... it is the means of attainment that is called the path." {01a-visuddhimagga04.mp3} (pp.3, para.7) – (pp.5, para.10 Virtue) 1.(pp.4, para.7) "... This word shows protective understand." → understand here mean clear comprehension of what is bneficial or clear comprehension of what is suitable. So, "... This word shows understand engaged in keeping meditation." (That mean, when you practice meditation, you have to know, which is beneficial, which is not; which is suitable, which is not; you have to keep this understanding or wisdom with you always, when you practice meditation.) 2.(pp.5, para.10) "And what is the beginning of profitable things?" → also mean "And what is the beginning of wholesome things?" 3.(pp.5, para.10) "...of non-remorse, and so on" → here "and so on", you can refer to (pp.13, para.32, line.5) "Discipline is for the purpose of restraint, restraint is for the purpose of non-remorse, non-remorse is for the purpose of gladdening, gladdening is for the purpose of happiness, happiness is for the purpose of tranquillity, tranquillity is for the purpose of bliss, bliss is for the purpose of concentration, concentration is for the purpose of correct knowledge and vision, correct knowledge and vision is for the purpose of dispassion, dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of greed], fading away is for the purpose of deliverance, deliverance is for the purpose of knowledge and vision of deliverance, knowledge and vision of deliverance is for the purpose of complete extinction [of craving etc.] through not clinging." {01a-visuddhimagga05.mp3} (pp.5, para.10 Concentration) 1.(para.10) "... Entering upon the profitable" → also mean "Cultivating what is wholesome". 2.(para.10) "... Understanding is the end of the dispensation." → Understanding here mean penetration of Four Noble Truth. 3.(para.11) "... the four kinds of discrimination" → that is (catupaṭisambhidā). 4.(para.12) "... the states of loss" → means woeful states. 5.(para.12) "... the element of sense-desires" → it is better to translate as "the world of sense-desires". ------------------- Below are the For the (pp.2, para.3), do you know what is 1. Deity of Deities? 2. fearless in the possession of the four kinds of perfect confidence? 3. Wielder of the Ten Powers? 4. All-seer with unobstructed knowledge? May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #99837 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 6:10 pm Subject: Re: e-card from Sweden szmicio Dear Sarah > I was glad to see your e-card from Sweden - I know it must be difficult for you to get internet access and I'm looking forward to when you're able to write again. How's Sweden and the work retreat going? L: The Sweden is very beautiful country. I was constantly attached to the beautiful sights. When the citta is attached than the mind is in its own imagine word. That is so different that awarness that is not forgetful of realities. But of course each akusala dhamma can be an object, anytime, anywhere. Totaly suprising, like dead or something else. I used to spend my time on reading the majhima nikaya and learned a lot. I read about renunciation that even being on renunciation we can be not renounced. I read the Buddha saying that he taught this renunciation because of 2 reasons: our welfare and the compasion to humans. but I found myself more like the guy who is on renunciation and is not renounced. Nothing wrong at all. That is citta that is agitated, so it' can take many life and citta will purify on its own. now I remeber bhante dhammandhara's words: That one moment of awarness in life is enough and the man is happy. That is such a good reminder, I am glad that Bhante shared this Dhamma, and now I have chance to understand. If I didnt consider Dhamma in detailed way i surely will chase pleasant vedanas and try to do something, to achive something. But now I live this live , and there is seeing and hearing and then different processes. Enjoy the teachin on non-self, and seeing how this different thinkings arise and fall away constantly, not mine. Nothing happy in it. But still attachment has a chance to arise again and again. Sarah: It must be very expensive there from what I hear, but I'm sure you can live simply on your retreat:-) L: ;> > >what is the path. the understanding that leads to detachment or detachment that leads to understanding? > ... > S: How could there be any detachment without any understanding? > ... L: It can be. Like the moments of giving the food. > >Should i first stop clinging to things to see realities as they are? > ... > S: Can you? > .... L: Impossible. > >Should i live in detachment or provide special conditions in order to understand realities? > ... > S: Does this kind of thinking help the understanding at this moment? > ... L: No, it doesnt. > >There is so much attachment. What can be done with this? > ... > S: Can anything be "done" with it? L: Just a dream. My best wishes Lukas #99838 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from Sweden szmicio Dear Ken, > Detachment is not going to the wilderness alone or seating in the forest contemplating the world. As long as the three aksuala roots are not eradicated, no matter where you run or how you want to be alone, it will haunt you. L: yes and now I see this. No matter where akusalas follows us like a shadow. I was thinking I can escape but its imposible. > Instead we should brace ourselves, understanding our realities of cittas, cetasikas and how they condition each other. When we face attachment as it arises, understanding it as anicca, dukkha and anatta in the present moment, this is developing understand to achieve detachment. L: Very very slow way. My best wishes Lukas #99839 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 10:46 am Subject: Happy Knowing! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Feed-forward Mirror Effects! Making others happy, makes oneself happy! Making others unhappy, makes oneself unhappy! When happy, one easily becomes concentrated... When unhappy, one easily becomes distracted... When concentrated, one sees & knows it as it really is! When unconcentrated, one can neither see nor know reality! Seeing & knowing reality makes exact navigation possible! Neither seeing, nor knowing reality makes navigation impossible! Exact navigation enables perfectly right behaviour... Erroneous navigation disables perfectly right behaviour... When acting only right, one makes no mistakes! When acting only wrong, one makes many mistakes! Making mistakes is painful, both now and later... Making no mistakes is Happiness, both now and later... Have a Happy day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Happy Knowing! #99840 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 3:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (05) ptaus1 Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Please resurrect any old discussions anytime....never too late! > > For catching up with a large backlog, you might find it easier to scroll through the archives on www.dhammastudygroup.org. This can also be downloaded for reading off-line if it helps. > pt: Thanks, that really helps! Best wishes, pt #99841 From: "connie" Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 3:42 am Subject: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" nichiconn Hi Sarah, #99825 >C: B.Bodhi uses 'Doctrines of Percipient Immortality' for Sa~n~niivaada. .... S: Just to clarify, I assume you saying that it is Sa~n~niivaada here translated as 1)Conscious Post-Mortem Survival and 2) 'Doctrines of Percipient Immortality'? .... c: yes'm. ....cut... S: Yes, I'm sure this Intermediate State adherence all comes down to a "Self-Survival" of some kind, which I'm sure is your point too. c: Ye olde cosmic self, yes - esp. that super control that bardo being is said to have over where the next little self finds itself in the next life, whether this 'oversoul' actually picks out the plane and all itself or just stands before Yama's court... just stories I've heard. peace, connie #99842 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 3:44 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (05) ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. > N: Change in temperature: we say this in conventional language, but > change in the ultimate sense is different. The latter is arising and > falling away at each splitsecond. The ruupa that is heat produces > other ruupas, but that heat and the ruupas it produces fall away all > the time. Ruupas that have fallen away are being replaced and we do > not notice momentary change, but after a while we can say: there is a > change and then we think of 'stories' of growing plants, split rocks. pt: I'm having trouble applying this explanation of the ultimate scale (or basically, a momentary - micro scale of individual external rupas arising and falling very fast) to the conventional macro-scale. In particular regarding the overall trends – the way that many, many rupas produced in a row can be said to behave collectively in a certain way. For example, in conventional terms – let's say the overall air temperature has dropped two degrees Celsius over the last two minutes. Conventionally, that drop can be explained by coming winter, a cold front approaching from the north, cyclones, etc. But I'm wondering if there's an explanation for such overall trend in ultimate terms. I.e. what governs or makes many, many external rupas in a row be produced in such a way, that after two minutes there's an apparent 2 degree Celsius drop in the overall air temperature – i.e. all the rupas in those 2 minutes have not been produced randomly, but in a particular way that seems like a trend? Nina: > The heat element present in a group of the four Great Elements and > the other four ruupas which form together the eight inseparables, can > produce another octad. pt: Where does this new octad of external rupa come from? I mean, does it suddenly just become created by temperature out of "thin air" so to speak, or does the old octad kind of splits like living cells to produce a new one, or is it kind of like recycling (i.e. old combinations of elements recombined anew thanks to the action of temperature), or something else? Further, I'm still confused about how to consider intellectually the four great elements in external rupas – as building block (a kind of material approach), or more as forces that shape or govern rupas (and conventional matter), or something else? Best wishes, pt #99843 From: "connie" Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 3:51 am Subject: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" nichiconn Hi Howard, Just thinking back at ya - =====#99835==== H: One thought, and one conjecture: 1) Except for simple curiosity and love of the dramatic, I don't see why anyone should care very much about this matter, for it has no obvious bearing on awakening and the cessation of dukkha. c: 1. Just that it leaves a big gap (space?!) between cuti and patisandhi & if there's one there, there's one between each moment of this present life as well, so too sloppy. H: 2) As one possibility, might not what is referred to as an intermediary state be a non-universal matter but, instead, an instance of a more or less short-lived existence as a peta for certain beings? That realm of experience might be home not only to generally greedy, sensuous types, but also for a greater or briefer period, to those who are, for one reason or another, desperately desirous of remaining in their prior "earthly" state [for example, to finish "unfinished business" or to act out of concern for loved ones "left behind," or to get revenge], and also to those who are simply confused as to what has happened and are looking to reestablish their "normal" circumstances, but are "lost." (Just a thought.) c: 2. Ghosts are ghosts, i guess... and you know I believe in them, but still just clinging. Actually, I really liked what Nina wrote the other day in the Sangiti Corner to the effect that even now, in this life, it's one moment routine and next, possibly, hell. I probably should look that up and quote properly, but ... later, connie (drinking Blue Bunny icecream with coffee today) #99844 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 8:44 pm Subject: Infinite Joy! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Brahmavihãra Meditation gives Infinite Joy! Training Universal Friendliness induces unalloyed Joy! Cultivating Boundless Pity enables tranquil Tolerance! Developing Mutual Joy produces deep Contentment! Refining Equanimity establishes calming Serenity! The Blessed Buddha repeatedly explained: May all creatures, all breathing things, all beings one and all, without exception, experience joy and good fortune only. May they not fall into any harm! Anguttara Nikaya II, 72 With good will for the entire cosmos, Cultivate a limitless & infinite heart: Above, as below, across & all around, Unobstructed, without any hostility. Sutta Nipata I, 8 Overcome the angry by friendliness; Overcome the wicked by goodness; Overcome the miser by generosity; Overcome the liar by truth. Dhammapada 223 Train yourself in doing only pure good... That lasts and brings great happiness! Cultivate generosity, a peaceful living, and a mentality of infinite friendliness! Itivuttaka 16 Joy creating is Meditation <...> Have a nice joyous day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri <...> Infinite Joy! #99845 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 10:00 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 1, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn said that we should forget ourselves, our own body; we should ‘belittle’ ourselves with understanding. There was not always an opportunity for Dhamma discussions during this journey and then I was disappointed. Acharn clearly explained to me at such occasions the importance of patience. She said: “When aversion arises it is evident that it is caused by something you want to have but which you do not obtain. We should trace the cause of aversion, otherwise we cannot get rid of the cause. You cling to the time for dinner or breakfast. You cling to Dhamma talk. Everything is dhamma, and it depends on your considering and understanding whether you can see this. Dhamma is not different from seeing, hearing, thinking and considering now. Whenever unpleasant feeling arises, there is akusala citta. Do you like to accumulate akusala on and on? We should remember that kusala is always pleasant. If you see the advantage of all kinds of kusala you know that it is time to develop patience, kindness or generosity. We should develop all kinds of kusala, not only the kusala that is listening to the Dhamma. When you have aversion it is caused by clinging, by expectations. Be patient, receive all kinds of vipåkacittas that are conditioned by previous kamma. Just let go of the things you are used to or you would like to have. Patience has to be gradually developed. We have to endure all kinds of hardship. Why can patience not be developed at this moment? When you know how to develop patience you can see progress from time to time. One can be calm and happy, even when facing difficult situations.” When we, after our trip to Turkey, arrived at Cairo airport again, we had to be patient, waiting for one hour for a piece of luggage which was lost and then found again. We proceeded to the hotel where we had to wait in our room for our suitcases until after one a clock at night. On account of this event I had another conversation with Acharn which I found most helpful: Nina: “My luggage did not come. Patience has a certain limit, after that there is no more patience.” Acharn: “What is the use of being impatient? Only right understanding can see that it is useless. When there is impatience there is no right understanding which sees the benefit of patience. We need right understanding in any situation. If paññå sees the disadvantage of impatience it is a condition for the development of patience. Understanding can develop together with all kusala dhammas.” Nina: “There can be patience to a certain degree and then one forgets about it.” Acharn: “That is why sati is necessary in any situation.” Nina: “Even if you lose your suitcase?” Acharn: “If you see the benefit of higher understanding it is time to develop all kusala dhammas.” ****** Nina. #99846 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 10:35 am Subject: why Sujin recommends dry insight rjkjp1 old post Why does Sujin emphasize dry insight rather than the path of the jhana labhi (who is skilled in both jhana and vipassana). After all the sukkavipasska is the lowest path, why not aim for the highest way? Basically it is because she believes that at this time it is the only viable way. In the nettipakarana it says The Netti-pakarana (587): QUOTE QUOTE "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati. Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties[U]. Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada commentaries indicate- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many details. Only the very wise ones with great accumulations could master jhana and use it as the base for insight. Nevertheless all types of kusala - of which samatha is one of the highest- should be developed as all kusala assists insight. End of old post What Sujin teaches is that one should lead ones natural life in developing insight. If one is a monk of course this means that great effort must be applied in keeping the vinaya strictly. If one is a lay person then one should develop insight naturally as one goes to work, talks , urinates, defecates, loves and laughs. If one is naturally inclined to solitude then one would be going the wrong way by thinking one should go to parties to develop vipassana, but likwise if one is so afraid of desire that they force themselves not to watch TV or other activities that they enjoy then they will never come to understand the refined desire that is making them behave unnaturally. Thus the path is incredibly subtle and that is why it must be natural based on ones real accumulations- and not idealised accumulations that one wishes one had. She takes pains to explain the very diferent paths of samatha and viapssana. For some types of samatha one must be in solitude , must be in special upright posture.. But most importantly one must really understand what is kusala and akusal and at highly refined levels otherwise one will merely develop subtle pleasant feeling lobha (attachment) and mistake that for samatha. But vipassana is more suble than samatha and is not posture dependent, it is all about understanding of the moment. And If one cannot clearly see the different ways of vipassana and samatha then one has no hope of developing vipassana. One may be trying all sorts of things but only be developing attachment to whatever practice one is doing. Thus it all comes down to wisdom, if one is still confused then effort needs to be put into undertanding the utter anattaness of each moment - this is the begining level pariyatti (theory) that can lead one to go on the right way. We see throughout the tipitaka people attaining in all sorts of situations, often while listening to a talk, sometimes when they were happy, sometimes when sad, one monk while being eaten by a tiger, sometimes even after they cut their throats in desperation, the Commenatries say countless monks attained while seated eating rice porridge; Sariputta attained sotapanna while hearing a short discourse from a monk, and arahatship while he was fanning the Buddha and listening to the Buddha explain Dhamma to another monk. The Buddha of course attained while sitting under a tree in lotus position. But none of these examples need to be copied by us - as these are merely the outward situation. The most fundamental factor is the understanding of what the path is, so that direct insight into the present moment can arise. robert #99847 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and Nina) - In a message dated 8/6/2009 11:52:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: Hi Howard, Just thinking back at ya - =====#99835==== H: One thought, and one conjecture: 1) Except for simple curiosity and love of the dramatic, I don't see why anyone should care very much about this matter, for it has no obvious bearing on awakening and the cessation of dukkha. c: 1. Just that it leaves a big gap (space?!) between cuti and patisandhi & if there's one there, there's one between each moment of this present life as well, so too sloppy. ----------------------------------- Tidy bundles may be what we like, but reality isn't always so accommodating! ;-) ----------------------------------- H: 2) As one possibility, might not what is referred to as an intermediary state be a non-universal matter but, instead, an instance of a more or less short-lived existence as a peta for certain beings? That realm of experience might be home not only to generally greedy, sensuous types, but also for a greater or briefer period, to those who are, for one reason or another, desperately desirous of remaining in their prior "earthly" state [for example, to finish "unfinished business" or to act out of concern for loved ones "left behind," or to get revenge], and also to those who are simply confused as to what has happened and are looking to reestablish their "normal" circumstances, but are "lost." (Just a thought.) c: 2. Ghosts are ghosts, i guess... and you know I believe in them, but still just clinging. Actually, I really liked what Nina wrote the other day in the Sangiti Corner to the effect that even now, in this life, it's one moment routine and next, possibly, hell. I probably should look that up and quote properly, but ... -------------------------------------- Nina had better watch it: That's very Buddhadasa-like! ;-)) ------------------------------------ later, connie (drinking Blue Bunny icecream with coffee today) ---------------------------------------- Ahh, sounds like a nice combo. A double high: sugar & caffeine!! ;-)) =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99848 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" nilovg Hi Howard (and Connie), Op 7-aug-2009, om 13:42 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Ghosts are ghosts, i guess... and you know I believe in them, but > still just clinging. Actually, I really liked what Nina wrote the > other day > in the Sangiti Corner to the effect that even now, in this life, > it's one > moment routine and next, possibly, hell. I probably should look > that up and > quote properly, but ... > -------------------------------------- > Nina had better watch it: That's very Buddhadasa-like! ;-)) > ------------------------------------ N: See life as just one moment of experiencing an object and then gone. This happens now and will happen at the end of this lifespan: the dying-consciousness falls away and is succeeded by the pa.tisandhicitta of the next life. It depends on kamma in what plane it will arise, a ghost plane, a human plane, a heavenly plane. It depends on kamma whether a lifespan in a given plane is long or short. Nina. #99849 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 1:33 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (05) nilovg Dear pt, sorry I messed up your name. I appreciate your questions. Op 7-aug-2009, om 5:44 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > pt: > I'm having trouble applying this explanation of the ultimate scale > (or basically, a momentary - micro scale of individual external > rupas arising and falling very fast) to the conventional macro- > scale. ....I.e. what governs or makes many, many external rupas in > a row be produced in such a way, that after two minutes there's an > apparent 2 degree Celsius drop in the overall air temperature – > i.e. all the rupas in those 2 minutes have not been produced > randomly, but in a particular way that seems like a trend? ------- N: You are wondering how to combine conventional truth with ultimate truth, as I understand you. They are two different outlooks, and the goals are different. People give scientific explanations for a drop in temperature. As to the goal of the understanding of ultimate truth: this is detachment from naama and ruupa. No interest in how it all happens in conventional or scientific sense. How could knowing this help to have less defilements? Is it not enough to know that there are conditions for the arising of each naama and ruupa and that they are beyond control? That is all that matters. --------- > > Nina: > > The heat element present in a group of the four Great Elements and > > the other four ruupas which form together the eight inseparables, > can > > produce another octad. > > pt: > Where does this new octad of external rupa come from? I mean, does > it suddenly just become created by temperature out of "thin air" so > to speak, or does the old octad kind of splits like living cells to > produce a new one, or is it kind of like recycling (i.e. old > combinations of elements recombined anew thanks to the action of > temperature), or something else? ------ N: No recycling, no splitting of cells. There are conditions so that the element of heat originates other octads. Perhaps it can help you to consider that also kamma, citta and nutrition can originate ruupas. We cannot pinpoint exactly how it happens, and I find this not interesting. We have to ask ourselves all the time: does it help to develop the kind of understanding that can eradicate the wrong view of self and the other defilements? -------- > > pt;Further, I'm still confused about how to consider intellectually > the four great elements in external rupas – as building block (a > kind of material approach), or more as forces that shape or govern > rupas (and conventional matter), or something else? ----- N: They are the four principle ruupas and all the other ruupas are derived ruupas, they are dependent on these, could not arise without them. Trying to use science to explain ultimate truth does not lead anywhere. We should never forget that their goals are different. ------ Nina. #99850 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 1:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] MP3 Visuddhimagga Talks - part 01A nilovg Dear Chew, Op 6-aug-2009, om 17:16 heeft Chew het volgende geschreven: > "Discipline is for the purpose of restraint, > restraint is for the purpose of non-remorse, > non-remorse is for the purpose of gladdening, > gladdening is for the purpose of happiness, > happiness is for the purpose of tranquillity, ------ That is a coincidence. We just studied this with Scott who gave the Pali. You made a list at the end, and are these questions? Ch: For the (pp.2, para.3), do you know what is 1. Deity of Deities? 2. fearless in the possession of the four kinds of perfect confidence? 3. Wielder of the Ten Powers? 4. All-seer with unobstructed knowledge? --------- N: 1 and 2 are difficult without the context. 3: In the Dispeller of Delusion, Ch 16, under Decads, the ten powers of the Buddha have been described. He knew all the details of kamma, when it produces result, the latent tendencies of being, the disposiiton of beings. See also Book of Analysis, Ch 16. 4: this refers to the Buddha's omniscience. To whatever he directed his knowledge, he would fathom it with his omniscience. ----- Nina. #99851 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 2:49 pm Subject: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam abhidhammika Hello Sarah How are you? Sarah wrote: " As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter what kind of forests or what kinds of villages or towns we find ourselves in and I wouldn't waste any time in trying to work out what is an ideal forest, Suan! However, we can agree to disagree on the deep meaning of the sutta unless you have any text (with translation, please!) in support of this idea." Suan replied: I was amazed to read your above assertion. It wasn't my idea at all! It was the very idea of the Buddha in delivering Vanapattha Suttam. So, I do not need to give you any other external Pali text in support of the Buddha's very idea. You only need to read this very Suttam more honestly and more carefully. The Suttam is a very straightforward one indeed if the reader can suspend their personal agendas. Let us have a look at the following excerpt from the beginning paragraph of Vanapattha Suttam. Section 190. "….. Bhagavaa etadavoca– "vanapatthapariyaayam vo, bhikkhave, desessaami, tam su.naatha, saadhukam manasikarotha, bhaasissaamii"ti. "The Bhagavaa said this: `Monks, I will make you see forest living as the cause. Listen to it, make an object in your mind well, I will tell'." The above is as literal a translation as possible. The term `pariyaaya' can mean `kara.na, a cause' or `desanaa, an instruction'. So, vanapatthapariyaayam can mean `forest living as the cause' or `instructions for forest living.' Deseti is the causative form of dassati (to see). And, please also note that desanaa is the noun form of deseti. What was the above declaration of the Buddha in his prefacing paragraph telling us? The Buddha was making the monks see that their living arrangements do matter as the optimizing causes and conditions for their samatha and vipassanaa to progress all the way as intended. Sarah wrote: "I don't read him as having said this part about "when they choose where to live or who to remain with". With the development of sati-sampaja~n~na, whether it be the forest, village, city, with or without people, any place is ideal!" Suan replied with astonishment: When I wrote: "The Buddha mentioned the above four purposes or requirements for the monks to accomplish when they choose where to live or who to remain with", I was summarising the Buddha's instructions found in Sections 191 through to 198. As far as the Buddha was concerned, the idea place in the case of a forest is the one mentioned in Section 194 while the forest mentioned in Section 193 is an acceptable one. Similarly, if we applied the four choice scenarios associated with forest living to the human settlements in Section 195, by supplying omitting cases with English alphabets, we should have ideal places in 195(d) in the case of a village, 195(h) in the case of a market-town, 195(l) in the case of a city and 195(p) in the case of a country. Therefore, Sarah, as far as the Buddha was concerned in the context of Vanapattha Suttam, there are ideal places that can serve as optimising causes and conditions for samatha and vipassanaa to progress all the way as intended. Thus, your conclusion of any place being ideal was the result of wrong reasoning from having misunderstood Vanapattha Suttam, I am afraid. Sarah also wrote: "There is no Right Concentration without the development of Right Understanding. While we have an idea of selecting forests rather than understanding realities at this moment, there will never be any development of Right Concentration of the Eightfold Path. Of that, I have no doubt." Suan replied with amazement. Sarah, every assertion you made seemed to be proving you wrong about Vanapattha Suttam. The Buddha delivered Vanapattha Suttam to show how the living arrangements, if chosen carefully, can be the optimising causes and conditions for the Right Recollection, the Right Concentration and the Right View to arise, develop and progress all the way as intended. In the above paragraph, you wrote `There is no Right Concentration without the development of Right Understanding.' What did you mean by that? You even stressed it with you having no doubt of that! Do you realise that you went against Abhidhamma by the above obstinate assertion? So, Sarah, you have been found to not only go against Vanapattha Suttam, but also Abhidhamma. This also applies to anyone who agrees with Sarah. Anyone who agrees with Sarah goes against Abhidhamma as well as Vanapattha Suttam, I mean. Sarah, if you don't know why you have been found to have gone against Abhidhamma, please let me know. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #99852 From: "colette" Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 9:30 pm Subject: Re: Pull my finger, was: Eyes closed ksheri3 Bless You Scott! Thanx for giving me a verified reason to return! colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear colette, > > Regarding (Dig it): > > I. Wordscape-cut-and-paste-UPPER-CASE-sample-remix. > > FIND...COGNIZE...DAMN, AREN'T I THE ULTIMATE HERETIC, AREN'T I A DUPLICATION OF THIS EGYPTIAN PHAROAH THAT CHANGED THE ENTIRE EGYPTIAN PROCESS PSYCHOLOGY TO THAT OF WORSHIPPING A SINGLE SUN GOD, A RA, AND HE MOVED THE ENTIRE MANUFACTURING PROCESS FROM THE FACILITY CALLED THEBES TO A NEW TOWN THAT HE HIMSELF BUILT...IN FACT, I ALWAYS BEGIN MY MAGIKAL EXSTRAVAGANZAS BY CLEARLY POINTING OUT THAT I CANNOT CHANGE THE WORLD AND IT IS YOU, MY PEERS, THAT HAVE TO PARTICIPATE WITH ME IN ORDER TO BRING ABOUT CHANGE. WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. THERE IS NO MISTAKE, THERE IS NO EXCLUSION AND INCLUSION, IT'S ONE SINGLE ENTITY...INTENTIONALLY...USNAVY...EVEN IN BUDDHISM...LABEL ...THE STATUS QUO...POTENTENTIAL REALITY...THERAVADAN...NO...THEY ARE ESOTERIC...THEY ARE ADVACED...AHA...EXCLUSION and ISOLATIONISM > > II. "Wordscape sample-in-quotation remix" <...> #99853 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 10:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. kenhowardau Hi Nina, ------ <. . .> N: > It does not have to be a point of argument, what you say. ------ It certainly doesn't. Once we have agreed that the Path - from beginning to end - is one of Right Understanding, we have no arguments. We are on the Path together. :-) ---------------- N: > Even when the Buddha just taught the Brahmavihaaras, we have to consider these in daily life. In other words, the citta has to be considered carefully, otherwise we take for mettaa what is selfish affection. It always comes back to citta and cetasikas, to ultimate realities. The Brahmavihaaras should not be taken for self, they arise when there are the right conditions. The listener may not understand this at first but the Buddha knew his accumulations. We cannot fathom the Buddha's wisdom when he preached this or that sutta. ----------------- Agreed. My understanding is limited. At least I can understand that. :-) Ken H #99854 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 11:06 pm Subject: Re: Pull my finger, was: Eyes closed scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding: c: "...Thanx for giving me a verified reason to return!" Scott: Peace, colette. Sincerely, Scott. #99855 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 11:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Jon, (and Mike), Regarding: J: "Right. We cannot preclude that possibility, especially given that the jhanas are known outside the dispensation." Scott: Yes. I certainly don't ever read anyone to suggest that there is no such thing as the jhaanas. They are exhaustively treated, say in the Visuddhimagga, and elaborated in the Abhidhamma. Jhaana is well-described and well documented. And still likely impossible to attain as a hobby at home or on time-limited vacation retreats. Me: "He suggested that the commentaries don't seem to state that jhaana itself won't be attainable in modern times, as I was suggesting, but that jhaana/vipassanaa attainment will be very difficult." J: "Yes, this is my understanding of the general effect of the commentaries...Insight with jhana as basis is of a different order altogether to jhana: one is the highest level of attainment of enlightenment, while the other is highly developed samatha." Scott: I agree. The over-emphasis on jhaana - that is 'highly developed samatha' - is misguided, as far as I'm concerned. Given that it is a pursuit that was attainable before the Buddha's time and outside of a Buddha'a dispensation suggests that it need not be accorded the wholly idealized status it is given. This is not to say that such states are not kusala. It is to caution against a fool's errand in pursuing with a lot of desire something that, while theoretically attainable, is very difficult for most to attain in and of itself. And as for the second point here, that insight with jhaana as basis is 'the highest level of attainment,' then I think it rather putting the cart before the horse to seek this attainment on the basis of jhaana when naama and ruupa are not yet discernible by vipassanaa~naa.na. Sincerely, Scott. #99856 From: "connie" Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 2:05 am Subject: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" nichiconn Hi again, Howard, c: 1. Just that it leaves a big gap (space?!) between cuti and patisandhi & if there's one there, there's one between each moment of this present life as well, so too sloppy. ----------------------------------- Tidy bundles may be what we like, but reality isn't always so accommodating! ;-) ----------------------------------- Still way easier for me to believe there's just this one 'me' running around here and not countless of little intermediate/alternate lives (during bhavanga?) as well. 'Course, it's a long story about 'my continuity' either way, isn't it. No problem for me taking the easy way out: what's the use in speculating about something the tradition eschews when i claim to want to learn what that tradition does say. So yeah, I thought your 'love of drama' point was good. c: ...I really liked what Nina wrote the other day in the Sangiti Corner to the effect that even now, in this life, it's one moment routine and next, possibly, hell. I probably should look that up and quote properly, but ... -------------------------------------- Nina had better watch it: That's very Buddhadasa-like! ;-)) ------------------------------------ ;) (- what's with the double chin?) I can't quite remember the oddish thing I heard/read the other day about 'nibbaana being in the spaces between conditioned realities' & probably Won't get around to looking for it, but did get around to looking *this* tidy bundle up- it was re: << DN 33.1.11(19) 'Four ways of going wrong (agata-gamanaani): One goes wrong through desire (chanda), hatred, delusion, fear. (snip pali) -------- N: We read in the 'Gradual Sayings' (II, 17, Book of the fours,Ch II, §7 : *No-bourn or agati refers to an unpleasant result of evil deeds even in this life.* -------------------- >> end quote c: That one just popped in and out of my head for days after i read it... what i used to think of as the ten worlds and the brevity of life - not that i've really quite adjusted to picturing things on the fuller 31 realm screen. Nor given up a belief that once you fully understand death, there's nothing more to learn. peace, connie #99857 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 7, 2009 10:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 8/7/2009 10:06:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: Hi again, Howard, c: 1. Just that it leaves a big gap (space?!) between cuti and patisandhi & if there's one there, there's one between each moment of this present life as well, so too sloppy. ----------------------------------- Tidy bundles may be what we like, but reality isn't always so accommodating! ;-) ----------------------------------- Still way easier for me to believe there's just this one 'me' running around here and not countless of little intermediate/alternate lives (during bhavanga?) as well. 'Course, it's a long story about 'my continuity' either way, isn't it. -------------------------------------------- No "me" at all anyway. :-) ------------------------------------------- No problem for me taking the easy way out: what's the use in speculating about something the tradition eschews when i claim to want to learn what that tradition does say. So yeah, I thought your 'love of drama' point was good. c: ...I really liked what Nina wrote the other day in the Sangiti Corner to the effect that even now, in this life, it's one moment routine and next, possibly, hell. I probably should look that up and quote properly, but ... -------------------------------------- Nina had better watch it: That's very Buddhadasa-like! ;-)) ------------------------------------ ;) (- what's with the double chin?) ------------------------------------- Not a chin - it's a broad smile. -------------------------------------- I can't quite remember the oddish thing I heard/read the other day about 'nibbaana being in the spaces between conditioned realities' & probably Won't get around to looking for it, --------------------------------------- Yeah, I read Joseph Goldstein writing something to that effect. I don't buy it. ;-) ---------------------------------------- but did get around to looking *this* tidy bundle up- it was re: << DN 33.1.11(19) 'Four ways of going wrong (agata-gamanaani): One goes wrong through desire (chanda), hatred, delusion, fear. (snip pali) ------------------------------------------ Mmm, not bad. Hatred and fear are instances of aversion. Are there more instances do you think? ------------------------------------------- -------- N: We read in the 'Gradual Sayings' (II, 17, Book of the fours,Ch II, §7 : *No-bourn or agati refers to an unpleasant result of evil deeds even in this life.* ---------------------------------------------- An odd name, 'no-bourn', for that! --------------------------------------------- -------------------- >> end quote c: That one just popped in and out of my head for days after i read it... what i used to think of as the ten worlds and the brevity of life - not that i've really quite adjusted to picturing things on the fuller 31 realm screen. Nor given up a belief that once you fully understand death, there's nothing more to learn. -------------------------------------- Could you say more about that belief? It doesn't strike me as quite right. -------------------------------------- peace, connie ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99858 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" scottduncan2 Dear connie (Howard), Regarding: c: "...DN 33.1.11(19) 'Four ways of going wrong (agata-gamanaani): One goes wrong through desire (chanda), hatred, delusion, fear...'Gradual Sayings' (II, 17, Book of the fours,Ch II, 7: Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 3:23 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (05) ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear pt, > sorry I messed up your name. pt: No worries, I only wish I was as wise and knowledgeable as Alberto. I was just reading some of his posts from a couple of months ago about conditions - great posts. Thanks Alberto! Best wishes pt #99860 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 3:35 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (16) ptaus1 Dear Nina, > The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. > Chapter 1. The Four Great Elements (continuation) > ... > When we touch a body or an object with a certain resilience, the characteristic of motion or pressure may present itself. These are characteristics of the element of wind. pt: In the above description, do experiences of motion and pressure stand for opposite characteristics of the wind element, like in case of describing the fire element with opposite characteristics of hot and cold, and soft and hard for the earth element? > It can also be described as vibration or oscillation. pt: Similarly, do oscillation and vibration stand for opposite characteristics? Also, could you please say a bit more about how to pinpoint the experience of pressure in real life? It seems I can detect the characteristic of motion, but I'm not sure what would be the characteristic of pressure. I think I'm confusing pressure with hardness and I'm not sure what would be the experiential difference. For example, when I press a balloon with my finger, I think that I can experience pressure (more like springiness), but I think this is more conceptual, and the only thing that seems sure I actually experience is hardness where my finger touches the balloon. Can't clearly detect any pressure so far. Best wishes pt #99861 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 3:43 am Subject: Re: why Sujin recommends dry insight ptaus1 Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: >For some types of samatha one must be in solitude , must be in special upright posture.. pt: Could you please say a bit more about what are these special types of samatha that require a special upright position? I ask because whenever I do samatha, I do it in a lying posture (I think it's called reclining Buddha posture) becuase of a bad back. Thanks. Best wishes pt #99862 From: "Chew" Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 5:38 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (05) chewsadhu Dear PT, This is really an interesting point. --- PT:For example, in conventional terms ?let's say the overall air temperature has dropped two degrees Celsius over the last two minutes. Conventionally, that drop can be explained by coming winter, a cold front approaching from the north, cyclones, etc. But I'm wondering if there's an explanation for such overall trend in ultimate terms. I.e. what governs or makes many, many external rupas in a row be produced in such a way, that after two minutes there's an apparent 2 degree Celsius drop in the overall air temperature ?i.e. all the rupas in those 2 minutes have not been produced randomly, but in a particular way that seems like a trend? --- In conventional sense, we may say "the overall air temperature has dropped two degrees Celsius over the last two minutes". It is just that the concept of time exists in conventional sense. We can compare within the two time periods. Then we get the result. In ultimate sense, there is without the concept of time. As a being, we only experience the dhamma at the present moment. The ultimate realities arise and cease. After its have ceased, it is not there anymore. We are not able to find it anywhere. Due to conditions, it is arising. A totally new phenomena is arising. After that it is ceasing. It hasn't come before. After it has ceased, it disappeared. In ultimate sense, the external phenomena has the 8 kinds of nature. It can be seen, that is due to it has form. It has temperature, that is due to it has fire-element. The other rupa are being supported, due to it has its nutritive essence to sustain them. They are together, due to there is water-element to keep them together to become in a group. Etc. These eight rupa group together and to be called a kalapa. Today, in the conventional sense, we experience the air pollution. This is our group kamma. Due to our group kamma, we have to face the air pollution. In conventional sense, we can say, we create our environment, we condition our environment. In ultimate sense, a being experience bodily suffering when breathe (breathe in the polluted air, and cause bodily suffering to arise). Bodily suffering experience is phenomena. It is a consciousness and its concomittants. It arises and ceases. The duration of the arising and ceasing of a mental phenomena is called one thought moment. In ultimate sense, the external phenomena is not born of our group kamma. It is born of utu (temperature). But due to one has to experience "that", "that" has to appear. "That" is act as one of the conditions for conditioned dhamma to arise. The conditioned dhamma depends on "that" to arise. So, "two degrees Celsius" and "two minutes" do not exist in the ultimate sense. They are merely concept. With respect, Chew #99863 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 6:25 am Subject: Re: Not Posted: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Mike: Hindrances and jhaana.] sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Thx for answering twice! 1) #99710 --- On Fri, 31/7/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: Yes, but you haven't answered my questions above about the objects of jhana and lokuttara cittas. Mental factors are not given as the objects of arupa jhana cittas. Are you saying that some of the 5th jhana cittas have "infinitude of space" as object and some have different mental factors? Surely one citta only has one object? What is the object of this jhana citta according to the texts as detailed in the Abhid. and commentaries? Or are you suggesting that the jhana cittas have several objects at once? ... ============ ========= ======== H:> What I see in the sutta is that the object of consciousness doesn't remain fixed in that jhana. Infinite space is the most frequently occurring object while in that jhana, but that swaps out with awareness of a variety of cetasikas. .... S: We interpret the sutta in different ways, so let me just try to understand what you are saying about jhana cittas: So are you suggesting: 1) one jhana citta can have different objects during the duration of that citta? In this case, infinite space and then cetasika a), cetasika b), cetasika c) and so on or 2) A succession of jhana cittas have different objects, so that jhana citta (a) has infinite space, succeeded by jhana citta (b) which as a cetasika, another jhana cita (c) which has a different cetasika as object and so on or 3) something different, in which case pls elaborate. .... >The distinction between the first 7 jhanas and the 8th and 9th is made clear in that sutta. It is only from the 8th and 9th jhanas that (mindful) emergence is required, according to this sutta, to investigate the qualities of the jhana. With regard to the first 7 jhanas, the investigation occurs without having emerged from the jhana. ... S:Again, we interpret the sutta differently, so let me just clarify your position in general about these jhanas. Are you suggesting that with regard to the first 7 jhanas, at the time that any of these jhana cittas arise, a)the object is the usual samatha object, such as the kasina *and* one or many mental factors, b)some of these jhana cittas have as object the samatha object, such as the kasina, whilst others have one or many mental factors, c) other. Let's leave the sutta aside at this point and discuss how jhana cittas function and what the object of jhana cittas are. Thx in advance for any clarification, Howard. Metta Sarah ====== #99864 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 7:16 am Subject: Re: Not Posted: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Mike: Hindrances and jhaana.] sarahprocter... Hi Howard, and then there was #99809! Anyway, I was glad to get a second response. --- On Wed, 5/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: Yes, but you haven't answered my questions above about the objects of jhana and lokuttara cittas. Mental factors are not given as the objects of arupa jhana cittas. Are you saying that some of the 5th jhana cittas have "infinitude of space" as object and some have different mental factors? ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- H:> Basically, yes. It may be that there is rapid switching away from jhana and back, but during the (sometimes lengthy) period that one seems to be "in jhana," there is, according to Sariputta, awareness of various namas and not just awareness of the single object associated with the specific jhana. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---- S: By "switching away from jhana and back", do you therefore mean: a) jhana cittas which take objects of samatha, such as kasina, interspersed by kamavacara cittas ("ordinary" cittas) which 'review' and which take various namas, such as the recent jhana cittas and associated mental factors as objects b) something else. If it's a) we're getting close, but this seems different from what you've been saying in your other messages. .... >>S:Surely one citta only has one object? ------------ --------- --------- --------- - H:> I do believe that there is ever only one object of consciousness at any time. ------------ --------- --------- --------- - S: OK, agreed here... ... Metta Sarah ======== #99865 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 7:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, (& Ken O) --- On Wed, 5/8/09, kenhowardau wrote: >Just as well it is a good topic, because I'm stuck on it! :-) ... S: :-) ... I accept (after a lot of prompting) that the Buddha sometimes taught other kinds of kusala (exclusive of satipatthana) . How he did that is another question. It would have to have been without giving the impression of control. .... S: I don't understand why there is any difficulty with this or why there would need to be any "impression of control". If we discuss the value of metta now, it may be a condition for metta to arise and develop - hearing, considering, development as usual. No control by any self involved. ... >Anyway, I am just posting this as a way of getting back into posting mode. :-) ... S: Happy to be the springboard anytime:). I'd also be glad if you were to join in any of my current threads and use them as springboards too:-)) ... >Beautiful surfing conditions this week. Must get going now before the tide's too high! .... S: We've been really fortunate with the weather further south too - freezing water, but lovely days... ... >BTW, not wanting to be argumentative, but did the Buddha exchange "friendly greetings?" There is one sutta, isn't there, where he refuses to show the customary deference to an elderly man in case it might be taken the wrong way. (In case the other man was seen as superior in some way.) ... S: I forget the sutta you have in mind, but there are many, many where the Buddha exchanges friendly greetings at the outset. I had a discussion with Ken O about this a long time ago and gave him an example. He may be able to recall and find it or other ones. ... >Hmm, maybe I haven't given that enough thought. >Later! ... S: Look forward to it... Metta Sarah ======= #99866 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Rob Ep), #99711 --- On Fri, 31/7/09, upasaka@... wrote: ------------ --------- --------- --------- --- >We can't know anything beyond our own direct experience. So, for all else we make our best judgement call. Hey, Sarah, how do we know that man called "the Buddha" was a buddha or, for that matter, that he even existed? We, in fact, do NOT know even this. The "How do we know game" can be taken as far as we like. But in that regard, I think it reasonable to not make negative assumptions about folks' accumulations or events in their lives without basis. I prefer giving the benefit of the doubt. ------------ --------- --------- --------- -- S: I think we do make "our best judgment call" as you suggest. We have no reason to consider that there was no Buddha. When others refer to particular experiences, we make "our best judgment call" according to our understanding at the time. When the Buddha referred to the dangerous wrong views of various ascetics, he wasn't making "negative assumptions" in the sense of anything akusala - he was just pointing to the truth. If someone mentions that apart from namas and rupas, they have a soul, I think it would be "positive" to point towards the wrong view if circumstances permitted. So again, I think it depends on the cittas and the intentions whether such "assumptions" are good or bad, don't you? ... >>S: You were referring to the Buddha's urging. Did the Buddha ever suggest that "mantra meditation" might "lead (one) to 'stumble into' jhanas? ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---- >What if he did not? In any case, I'm back to mindfulness of the body, and most especially of the breath, the manta meditation being short lived. So you needn't concern yourself with that. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- S: :-), Lol! I assure you, it makes no difference to me! ... >>S:I'm glad that everything's going well for you, Howard, but I don't see what "mantra meditation" has to do with the Buddha's teachings, which isn't to say I'm wishing to discourage it or think it any more unhelpful in this regard than so-called anapanasati meditation as commonly practised today. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- H:> Sarah, let's be frank: You don't want to meditate, and, incredibly IMO, you don't consider it part of the Dhamma. That's fine. To each his/her own. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- S: As discussed ad nauseum, I've never said that 'meditation', ie bhaavanaa is not "part of the Dhamma". However, we define 'meditation' in different ways. The funny thing is, that probably if you were to track my life for a day, you'd say I "do a lot of meditation" as you understand it, starting with my relaxating yoga with breathing exercises, my gentle tai chi, walking along the beach, the evening restorative heart exercises and so on.... Rob Ep will understand... But for me, these are just more 'situations' in the day, along with washing dishes, cooking, shoppping, internet work, Dhamma study and so on. There can be "meditation" anytime during any of these activities. I don't differentiate between them as far as the arising of sati-sampajanna is concerned. ... ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- H:> I really have nothing to discuss on this. So we might as well let it go. :-) ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- S: Conditions conditions.... Perhaps I can encourage Rob Ep to help with the thread and give you some relief. Metta Sarah ====== #99867 From: han tun Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 7:47 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (40) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 4. Sense objects (continuation). Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ Sound can be produced by temperature or by citta. Sound of wind or sound of water is produced by temperature. Speech sound is produced by citta. We are inclined to find a loud noise disturbing and we may make ourselves believe that at such a moment mindfulness of realities cannot arise. We read in the "Theragaathaa" (Psalms of the Brothers, Part VII, Canto 62, Vajjiputta) about a monk of the Vajjian clan who was dwelling in a wood near Vesaalii. The commentary to this verse (Paramatthadiipanii) states: "... Now a festival took place at Vesaalii, and there was dancing, singing and reciting, all the people happily enjoying the festival. And the sound thereof distracted the bhikkhu, so that he quitted his solitude, gave up his exercise, and showed forth his disgust in this verse: Each by himself we in the forest dwell, Like logs rejected by the woodman's craft. So flit the days one like another by, Who more unlucky in their lot than we? Now a woodland deva heard him, and had compassion for the bhikkhu, and thus upbraided him, 'Even though you, bhikkhu, speak scornfully of forest life, the wise desiring solitude think much of it,' and to show him the advantage of it spoke this verse: Each by himself we in the forest dwell, Like logs rejected by the woodman's craft. And many a one does envy me my lot, Even as the hell-bound envies him who fares to heaven. Then the bhikkhu, stirred like a thoroughbred horse by the spur, went down into the avenue of insight, and striving soon won arahatship. Thereupon he thought, 'The deva's verse has been my goad!' and he recited it himself." By this Sutta we are reminded that aversion to noise is not helpful. Mindfulness can arise of whatever reality presents itself. When sound appears, correct understanding of this reality can be developed. It can be known as a kind of ruupa and it does not matter what kind of sound it is. We are infatuated with pleasant sense objects and disturbed by unpleasant ones. Like and dislike are realities of daily life and they can be objects of awareness. We often find reasons why we cannot be mindful of the reality appearing at the present moment. ---------------------------- Chapter 4. Sense objects to be continued. with metta, Han #99868 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 7:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthan Table sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Maitreyi), thank you for all the work you have gone to. I'll be interested to see anything else you or Maitreyi care to add. Metta Sarah --- On Mon, 3/8/09, han tun wrote: >I was thinking how Maitreyi would present Satipatthana Table in serial, as requested by Nina. It may not be easy to serialize the tables. As an experiment, I will try to present the first part of the table as follows. ------------ -------- I. kaayaanupassanaa satipatthaana or 'contemplations on body' <>>>> #99869 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 7:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Still Misunderstood Vanapattha Suttam: Re: More on Seclusion in Jungle sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- On Wed, 29/7/09, han tun wrote: >Han; I notice you have put the quotation marks on my comment, "tend to agree". I do not know satipa.t.thaana as much as you do. So I can only tend to agree. If I am not decisive enough, then please consider it as one of my shortcomings. ... S: Not at all, Han. In a conventional sense, we see "not decisive enough" as a shortcoming perhaps, but from a Dhamma point of view, it's better to consider carefully, rather than make rash judgments, I think. I appreciated your contribution and careful reflection. Metta Sarah ===== #99870 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 8:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] seclusion - fix . Sati & Uppekha is purer in 4th Jhana sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Sat, 1/8/09, Alex wrote: >Please provide me with sutta quotes. As far as I know 4th Jhana is one of the ideal places to refine Sati. .... S: sati arises with all kinds of wholesome cittas. When it arises with 4th jhana it is refined or purified to that degree of jhana. However, this is not the same as in the development of insight, as I said. "The visuddhis (purities) can only be developed and attained with the development of vipassana and understanding of anatta. For refs, try CMA and the sutta about the relay chariots in MN, read together. Also, Vism. ... >It is funny that word "vipassana" is mentioned only 3 times in DN, and Jhana (or samatha) is mention 100s of times. The first time Vipassana is mentioned IS AFTER 4th Jhana and other 2 times it is mentioned in conjunction with samatha "two things to develop samatha and vipassana". And furthermore, considering the sort of insight that can happen during or after Jhana (see MN111 for example) I wonder if Buddha ever taught stand alone "vipassana" at all (and if he did, it may have been to those people who already developed degree of Samatha in their systems). ... S: Again, let's agree that samatha (calm) arises with all kusala cittas. So yes, when vipassana is developed, so is samatha. For "stand alone 'vipassana'", you may like to review "dry insight" in U.P. .... >The sheer volume and talk about Jhana, Jhana, Jhana, Samatha, Samadhi, in the suttas (and even VsM) make me wonder about what has happened to some modern teachers... Do they have different Nikayas? ... S: Perhaps they read them together with the less popular Nikayas, the Abhidhamma, Vinaya and ancient commentaries:-) Metta Sarah ======= #99871 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 8:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Be here now sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- On Fri, 31/7/09, Scott wrote: >>S: "By natural decisive support condition, subsequent thinking can be influenced by anything at all - by the recent cittas, objects experienced or by experiences long, long, long ago in the past. Does it matter?" >Scott: Thanks. Good old natural decisive support condition. Very subtle and complex. Does it matter? Well, to me, I guess. As you may or may not know, I think too much. Did you know that? ;-) .... Sarah: ;-) A common affliction.... .... When I think about the Dhamma, sometimes I have thoughts about whether the thinking is based on truth, or things as they are. You know, how some views are wrong and some are right. But then that's 'view' in an ordinary sense, I guess. I think, as well, that others think about Dhamma and get it all wrong. I guess I'm just working out the relation between pa~n~naa and content of thought. You know, how one thought can express truth, while another is wrong. .... Sarah: Awareness of thinking or any other dhamma now is most useful.... ... >Scott: Yes. The cittas are important. This bears on so many discussions on the list. It's not the forest, it's the cittas. It's not the posture, it's the cittas. ... Sarah: Just shout that a little louder for all to hear:-)) ... >And, as you say, it is by natural decisive support condition that one either understands this (as do you and I) or not. .... Sarah: Yes, we hear the same message, we read the same suttas, we check the same Pali terms, but it all comes down to this condition as to what kind of reflection will take place at any time.... ... >>S: Different cittas, different moments, just like now! Everyone lives in their own world of different cittas. >Me (Scott): "I happen to be of the opinion that going with the aim of making something happen will not make something happen, but arriving, something might happen anyway, or not, as the case may be." .... Sarah: Of course there were those who went to see the Buddha to point out his wrong views and put him down, but after listening, right understanding and even enlightenment occurred. Again, nat. decisive support condition (and other supporting conditions too, of course). Complicated... ... >Scott: I guess I was saying that if one wants to travel to a stupa, then I guess one will. And, since 'anywhere anytime' is the 'rule' for understanding present dhammas, then, as you say, it doesn't matter. Circumambulating a stupa or not. ... Sarah: Exactley, it doesn't matter, otherwise one is enslaved to the idea of a 'situation' as mattering one way or the other and it'll be back to choosing the forest all over again.... Metta, Sarah ========= #99872 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 8:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. kenhowardau Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Ken H, (& Ken O) > > --- On Wed, 5/8/09, kenhowardau wrote: > >Just as well it is a good topic, because I'm stuck on it! :-) > ... > S: :-) > ... > I accept (after a lot of prompting) that the Buddha sometimes taught > other kinds of kusala (exclusive of satipatthana) . How he did that is > another question. It would have to have been without giving the > impression of control. > .... > S: I don't understand why there is any difficulty with this or why there would need to be any "impression of control". ----- I don't understand why there wouldn't be an obvious difficulty. As I said in a previous post, I don't see how anyone could teach morality without also teaching satipatthana. It's easy enough to extol the benefits of generosity and kindness, but what if someone were to ask what they were? ' Are they theoretical constructs? Are they arbitrarily defined? Are they rituals? If they are rituals, who is to say which ritual is good and which is bad; won't there always be gray areas?' ------------------- S: > If we discuss the value of metta now, it may be a condition for metta to arise and develop - hearing, considering, development as usual. No control by any self involved. ------------------- Yes, so there are two essentials in teaching morality. First, generosity, metta and wisdom are realities, not mere matters of opinion. Second, they cannot be controlled; they are not rituals. Sounds like satipatthana to me! :-) Ken H #99873 From: han tun Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 9:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthan Table hantun1 Dear Sarah, I was experimenting how it would look if the tables were to be presented in serial. I am not going to add anything. Even that, I have abandoned completely as Nina said the tables would be of no use. I had already deleted the whole thing from my computer. Kind regards, Han #99874 From: han tun Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 9:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Still Misunderstood Vanapattha Suttam: Re: More on Seclusion in Jungle hantun1 Dear Sarah, I understand now, my partner! I thought you were ridiculing me:>) Coming back to the topic, I think the suitability of the abode is essential for mental development. In Visuddhimagga, for example, in chapter IV, paragraphs 2 to 18, we read the Eighteen Faults of a Monastery, which are not favourable and one should not live there. In the same chapter, in paragraph 36, the unsuitability of the abode is mentioned. On the other hand, even in the suitable abode, if the bhikkhu does not walk the Noble Eightfold Path correctly, there may not be any progress. It may be like kaaya-viveka and citta-viveka. Even if there is kaaya-viveka, if there is no citta-viveka, although physically he may be alone, he might have a companion next to him in the form of (Ta.nhaadutiyo puriso). That's why I said I tend to agree with you that there was not much use in seclusion in the forest without the development of sati-sampaja~n~naa. One will have to balance between the suitability of the abode and one's own efforts. You do not have to agree with me:>) Respectfully, Han #99875 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 9:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Connie) - In a message dated 8/7/2009 10:53:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear connie (Howard), Regarding: c: "...DN 33.1.11(19) 'Four ways of going wrong (agata-gamanaani): One goes wrong through desire (chanda), hatred, delusion, fear...'Gradual Sayings' (II, 17, Book of the fours,Ch II, 7: Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 1:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. nilovg Dear Ken H, I like to help you to keep the mood of posting. Op 8-aug-2009, om 10:26 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > S: > If we discuss the value of metta now, it > may be a condition for metta to arise and develop - hearing, > considering, development as usual. No control by any self involved. > ------------------- > > K: Yes, so there are two essentials in teaching morality. First, > generosity, metta and wisdom are realities, not mere matters of > opinion. > Second, they cannot be controlled; they are not rituals. > > Sounds like satipatthana to me! :-) ----- N: I heard on a Thai recording something you will like. Q.: practice of dhamma in accordance with dhammas (patipatti dhamma anudhamma), the fourth of the conditions for attaining enlightenment. (The others being association with the right friend, listening, wise attention.) The questioner asked: practising siila, how to do that in accordance with dhammas. The latter are the lokuttara dhammas (see co to the Parinibbaanasutta). Kh Sujin answered that this is not just practising siila without pa~n~naa. Siila has to be accompanied by pa~n~naa, together with pa~n~naa. Otherwise it is not practice in accordance with lokuttara dhammas. Sounds like satipatthana, does it not? ----- Nina. #99877 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 1:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Be here now nilovg Dear Scott, Op 8-aug-2009, om 10:19 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > >Scott: Yes. The cittas are important. This bears on so many > discussions on the list. It's not the forest, it's the cittas. It's > not the posture, it's the cittas. > ... > Sarah: Just shout that a little louder for all to hear:-)) > ... -------- Nina: Hear, hear. ------ Nina. #99878 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 9:46 am Subject: Re: Not Posted: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Mike: Hindrances and jhaana.] upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/8/2009 2:27:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, Thx for answering twice! 1) #99710 --- On Fri, 31/7/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: Yes, but you haven't answered my questions above about the objects of jhana and lokuttara cittas. Mental factors are not given as the objects of arupa jhana cittas. Are you saying that some of the 5th jhana cittas have "infinitude of space" as object and some have different mental factors? Surely one citta only has one object? What is the object of this jhana citta according to the texts as detailed in the Abhid. and commentaries? Or are you suggesting that the jhana cittas have several objects at once? ... ============ ========= ======== H:> What I see in the sutta is that the object of consciousness doesn't remain fixed in that jhana. Infinite space is the most frequently occurring object while in that jhana, but that swaps out with awareness of a variety of cetasikas. .... S: We interpret the sutta in different ways, so let me just try to understand what you are saying about jhana cittas: So are you suggesting: 1) one jhana citta can have different objects during the duration of that citta? In this case, infinite space and then cetasika a), cetasika b), cetasika c) and so on --------------------------------------------------- I'm not necessarily assuming that during what we call "experiencing a jhana," all the mind states are "jhana cittas". There may be non-jhanic states, conditioned by jhana factors, interspersed during which various cetasikas are the objects of consciousness. But that technicality aside, yes, "...infinite space and then cetasika a), cetasika b), cetasika c) and so on." ----------------------------------------------------------------- or 2) A succession of jhana cittas have different objects, so that jhana citta (a) has infinite space, succeeded by jhana citta (b) which as a cetasika, another jhana cita (c) which has a different cetasika as object and so on or 3) something different, in which case pls elaborate. --------------------------------------------------- Probably 3) as I described above. --------------------------------------------------- .... >The distinction between the first 7 jhanas and the 8th and 9th is made clear in that sutta. It is only from the 8th and 9th jhanas that (mindful) emergence is required, according to this sutta, to investigate the qualities of the jhana. With regard to the first 7 jhanas, the investigation occurs without having emerged from the jhana. ... S:Again, we interpret the sutta differently, so let me just clarify your position in general about these jhanas. Are you suggesting that with regard to the first 7 jhanas, at the time that any of these jhana cittas arise, a)the object is the usual samatha object, such as the kasina *and* one or many mental factors, b)some of these jhana cittas have as object the samatha object, such as the kasina, whilst others have one or many mental factors, c) other. ------------------------------------------------------ Well, I've explained above what I mean. It is clear to me that what Sariputta describes as going on while "in a jhana" includes investigation of various namas and namic qualities in effect. He doesn't go into Abhidhammic detail as to citta types in that teaching. How do YOU understand what he said? ------------------------------------------------------ Let's leave the sutta aside at this point and discuss how jhana cittas function and what the object of jhana cittas are. ------------------------------------------------------- No, let's not. Let's discuss what Sariputta actually said! :-) ------------------------------------------------ Thx in advance for any clarification, Howard. --------------------------------------------- :-) -------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99879 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 10:01 am Subject: Re: Not Posted: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Mike: Hindrances and jhaana.] upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/8/2009 3:16:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, and then there was #99809! Anyway, I was glad to get a second response. --- On Wed, 5/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: Yes, but you haven't answered my questions above about the objects of jhana and lokuttara cittas. Mental factors are not given as the objects of arupa jhana cittas. Are you saying that some of the 5th jhana cittas have "infinitude of space" as object and some have different mental factors? ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- H:> Basically, yes. It may be that there is rapid switching away from jhana and back, but during the (sometimes lengthy) period that one seems to be "in jhana," there is, according to Sariputta, awareness of various namas and not just awareness of the single object associated with the specific jhana. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---- S: By "switching away from jhana and back", do you therefore mean: a) jhana cittas which take objects of samatha, such as kasina, interspersed by kamavacara cittas ("ordinary" cittas) which 'review' and which take various namas, such as the recent jhana cittas and associated mental factors as objects b) something else. ------------------------------------------- I'm suggesting as possible a very rapid switching from jhana cittas to non-jhanic and back again as regards the 1st 7 jhanas, all while conventionally "in the midst of a jhana" as opposed to fully emerging from a jhana and then reviewing. The sutta certainly distinguishes emerging from the 8th & 9th jhanas to then investigate from the investigation of qualities "during" the first 7 jhanas one by one as they occurred (as expressed in the sutta). I find the sutta crystal clear in this respect, and I don't see how or why that clarity should be ignored. -------------------------------------------- If it's a) we're getting close, but this seems different from what you've been saying in your other messages. .... >>S:Surely one citta only has one object? ------------ --------- --------- --------- - H:> I do believe that there is ever only one object of consciousness at any time. ------------ --------- --------- --------- - S: OK, agreed here... ... Metta Sarah ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99880 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 10:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/8/2009 3:41:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (& Rob Ep), #99711 --- On Fri, 31/7/09, upasaka@... wrote: ------------ --------- --------- --------- --- >We can't know anything beyond our own direct experience. So, for all else we make our best judgement call. Hey, Sarah, how do we know that man called "the Buddha" was a buddha or, for that matter, that he even existed? We, in fact, do NOT know even this. The "How do we know game" can be taken as far as we like. But in that regard, I think it reasonable to not make negative assumptions about folks' accumulations or events in their lives without basis. I prefer giving the benefit of the doubt. ------------ --------- --------- --------- -- S: I think we do make "our best judgment call" as you suggest. We have no reason to consider that there was no Buddha. When others refer to particular experiences, we make "our best judgment call" according to our understanding at the time. When the Buddha referred to the dangerous wrong views of various ascetics, he wasn't making "negative assumptions" in the sense of anything akusala - he was just pointing to the truth. If someone mentions that apart from namas and rupas, they have a soul, I think it would be "positive" to point towards the wrong view if circumstances permitted. So again, I think it depends on the cittas and the intentions whether such "assumptions" are good or bad, don't you? ... >>S: You were referring to the Buddha's urging. Did the Buddha ever suggest that "mantra meditation" might "lead (one) to 'stumble into' jhanas? ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---- >What if he did not? In any case, I'm back to mindfulness of the body, and most especially of the breath, the manta meditation being short lived. So you needn't concern yourself with that. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- S: :-), Lol! I assure you, it makes no difference to me! ... >>S:I'm glad that everything's going well for you, Howard, but I don't see what "mantra meditation" has to do with the Buddha's teachings, which isn't to say I'm wishing to discourage it or think it any more unhelpful in this regard than so-called anapanasati meditation as commonly practised today. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- H:> Sarah, let's be frank: You don't want to meditate, and, incredibly IMO, you don't consider it part of the Dhamma. That's fine. To each his/her own. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- S: As discussed ad nauseum, I've never said that 'meditation', ie bhaavanaa is not "part of the Dhamma". However, we define 'meditation' in different ways. The funny thing is, that probably if you were to track my life for a day, you'd say I "do a lot of meditation" as you understand it, starting with my relaxating yoga with breathing exercises, my gentle tai chi, walking along the beach, the evening restorative heart exercises and so on.... ---------------------------------------- Gosh, Sarah, did the Buddha ever teach that? ;-)) --------------------------------------- Rob Ep will understand... But for me, these are just more 'situations' in the day, along with washing dishes, cooking, shoppping, internet work, Dhamma study and so on. There can be "meditation" anytime during any of these activities. I don't differentiate between them as far as the arising of sati-sampajanna is concerned. ----------------------------------------------- I think as regards cultivation of the mind, you SHOULD distinguish. The Buddha did. Jhana is NOT entered while "washing dishes, cooking, shoppping, internet work, Dhamma study and so on." What MAY happen at these times is the arising of insight and even awakening, due to prior cultivation, especially via jhana attainment. ----------------------------------------------------------- ... ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- H:> I really have nothing to discuss on this. So we might as well let it go. :-) ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- S: Conditions conditions.... Perhaps I can encourage Rob Ep to help with the thread and give you some relief. Metta Sarah =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99881 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 2:24 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (16) nilovg Dear pt, Op 8-aug-2009, om 5:35 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > quote: > When we touch a body or an object with a certain > resilience, the characteristic of motion or pressure may present > itself. These are characteristics of the element of wind. > > pt: > In the above description, do experiences of motion and pressure > stand for opposite characteristics of the wind element, like in > case of describing the fire element with opposite characteristics > of hot and cold, and soft and hard for the earth element? ------ N: Hot and cold are not in this context opposites. They are the element of heat or temperature, but in different amounts. See Abhidhammattha Sangaha, U Narada's notes on tejo dhaatu: The same in the case of hard and soft, they are here not opposites. The Elements appear in different combinations. Motion or pressure, just describing the element of wind. --------- > > > It can also be described as vibration or oscillation. > > pt: > Similarly, do oscillation and vibration stand for opposite > characteristics? -------- N: We do not have to think of opposite characteristics, these are just modes of their appearing. ------- > > pt: Also, could you please say a bit more about how to pinpoint the > experience of pressure in real life? It seems I can detect the > characteristic of motion, but I'm not sure what would be the > characteristic of pressure. I think I'm confusing pressure with > hardness and I'm not sure what would be the experiential > difference. For example, when I press a balloon with my finger, I > think that I can experience pressure (more like springiness), but I > think this is more conceptual, and the only thing that seems sure I > actually experience is hardness where my finger touches the > balloon. Can't clearly detect any pressure so far. ------ N: When sati arises because of its own conditions, no trying to know, it will be clearer. True, when touching a balloon, sometimes hardness may appear, sometimes heat, sometimes pressure. We never know beforehand. We cannot make certain characteristics of realities appear. We cannot select them. Just now we are talking about elements, thinking of the ways they are described. This is different from the moment sati is aware of a particular characteristic that appears. And then there is no need to name it, just attending to a characteristic in order to know it as a mere dhamma that is conditioned. No balloon, no finger, no thing, no being. ------ Nina. #99882 From: "Chew" Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] MP3 Visuddhimagga Talks - part 01A chewsadhu Dear Nina, The (para.3) is as below: However, when questioned thus, the Blessed One, whose knowledge of all things is unimpeded, Deity of Deities, excelling Sakka [Ruler of Gods], excelling Brahmaa, fearless in the possession of the four kinds of perfect confidence, Wielder of the Ten Powers, All-seer with unobstructed knowledge, uttered this stanza in reply to explain the meaning: "When a wise man, established well in Virtue, Develops Consciousness and Understanding, Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacioius, He succedds in disentangling this tangle". With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Chew, > Op 6-aug-2009, om 17:16 heeft Chew het volgende geschreven: > > > "Discipline is for the purpose of restraint, > > restraint is for the purpose of non-remorse, > > non-remorse is for the purpose of gladdening, > > gladdening is for the purpose of happiness, > > happiness is for the purpose of tranquillity, > ------ > That is a coincidence. > We just studied this with Scott who gave the Pali. > You made a list at the end, and are these questions? > Ch: For the (pp.2, para.3), do you know what is > 1. Deity of Deities? > 2. fearless in the possession of the four kinds of perfect confidence? > 3. Wielder of the Ten Powers? > 4. All-seer with unobstructed knowledge? > --------- > N: 1 and 2 are difficult without the context. > 3: In the Dispeller of Delusion, Ch 16, under Decads, the ten powers > of the Buddha have been described. He knew all the details of kamma, > when it produces result, the latent tendencies of being, the > disposiiton of beings. See also Book of Analysis, Ch 16. > 4: this refers to the Buddha's omniscience. To whatever he directed > his knowledge, he would fathom it with his omniscience. > ----- > Nina. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #99883 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 2:36 pm Subject: Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "So, I guess 'agati', though the word form suggests actual non-existence, may be a synonym for 'duggati' but with a connotation of 'being nowhere' or an outcaste or persona non grata as regards the Dhamma." Scott: Visuddhimagga XVII 158, 161: "One ought to consider the [pair] death and birth Under aggregates, object, cause, destiny, feeling, Happiness, and then thinking applied and sustained, Distinguishing them by unlikeness and likeness... Khandhaaramma.nagatihetu-vedanaapiitivitakkavicaarehi; Bhedaabhedaviseso, cutisandhiina.m pari~n~neyyo. "A mere state that has got its conditions Ushers in the ensuing existence; While it does not migrate from the past, With no cause in the past it is not." Laddhapaccayamiti dhammamattameta.m bhavantaramupeti; Naassa tato sa.nkanti, na tato hetu.m vinaa hoti. Scott: There is no such thing as 'actual non-existence', so yeah, it means 'wrong destiny.' (I don't subscribe to the intermediate state thing, by the way.) Atthasaalinii (pp.86-87): "When the difference of actions effects a (future) existence as prayed for, because it does so through destiny, then from the difference in kamma result the difference in destiny..." Sincerely, Scott. #99884 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 10:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 8/8/2009 10:36:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "So, I guess 'agati', though the word form suggests actual non-existence, may be a synonym for 'duggati' but with a connotation of 'being nowhere' or an outcaste or persona non grata as regards the Dhamma." Scott: Visuddhimagga XVII 158, 161: "One ought to consider the [pair] death and birth Under aggregates, object, cause, destiny, feeling, Happiness, and then thinking applied and sustained, Distinguishing them by unlikeness and likeness... Khandhaaramma.nagatihetu-vedanaapiitivitakkavicaarehi; Bhedaabhedaviseso, cutisandhiina.m pari~n~neyyo. "A mere state that has got its conditions Ushers in the ensuing existence; While it does not migrate from the past, With no cause in the past it is not." ------------------------------------------------ That's a good quote, IMO, indicating conditionality w/nothing "carried over." --------------------------------------------- Laddhapaccayamiti dhammamattameta.m bhavantaramupeti; Naassa tato sa.nkanti, na tato hetu.m vinaa hoti. Scott: There is no such thing as 'actual non-existence', so yeah, it means 'wrong destiny.' (I don't subscribe to the intermediate state thing, by the way.) Atthasaalinii (pp.86-87): "When the difference of actions effects a (future) existence as prayed for, because it does so through destiny, then from the difference in kamma result the difference in destiny..." ---------------------------------------------- I would bet on no intermediary state, but I consider the matter unimportant. --------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ============================ With metta, Howard Impermanence /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #99885 From: "Chew" Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 3:26 pm Subject: Atom vs kalaapaa chewsadhu Dear Nina, Han, all, Some translators translate kalaapaa as atom. Some also think that atom in Physics is the same as the kalapaa in Abhidhamma. Just wondering, is the atom in Physics the same as the kalaapaa in Abhidhamma? When I google "Atoms, electrons, protons, and neutrons", I found this explanation "Atoms are made up of 3 types of particles electrons, protons and neutrons". Further: "Electrons are tiny, very light particles that have a negative electrical charge (-). Protons are much larger and heavier than electrons and have the opposite charge, protons have a positive charge. Neutrons are large and heavy like protons, however neutrons have no electrical charge. Each atom is made up of a combination of these particles." For my opinion, atom in Physics is not the same as the kalaapaa in Abhidhamma. Do you have any idea about it? With respect, Chew #99886 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 3:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" scottduncan2 Dear Howard, (and connie), Regarding: H: "That's a good quote, IMO, indicating conditionality w/nothing 'carried over.' I would bet on no intermediary state, but I consider the matter unimportant." Scott: Right. 'Nothing carried over' meaning no entity in an intermediate state. No bardo. I think the matter *is* very important, and it is important to get it straight. As connie points out, the fantasy of the bardo state is rife with a belief in control of destiny by a conscious act of will, and this sort of belief is also adapted and wrongly applied to this existence and the dhammaa which arise and fall away here. Since rebirth-linking follows death-consciousness immediately, as is the case with each successive moment of consciousness, there is never room to misunderstand volition and result (which the whole bardo thing totally does). Consider Visuddhimagga VIII, note 54, (from the Paramattha-ma~njuusaa, Visuddhimagga A.t.thakathaa) regarding 'mindfulness with breath as the object' and demonstrating a point which can then be adopted as a general principle: "...For the notion of a beginning (aadi cintaa) is here in the sense of first arising, not in the sense of just arising [once only]. For they actually go on arising throughout the [whole length] from the navel to the nose-tip; and wherever they arise, there in that same place they dissolve, because there is no (movement) of dhammas. The ordinary term 'motion' (gatisama~n~naa) refers to successive arisings in adjacent locations (desantaruppati) according to conditions..." Scott: This applies, then, to every moment of consciousness. The ruupa which comprise 'breath' arise and fall away first in one place, then in another, and so on. The fact of 'no movement of dhammas' is basic and essential, hence 'important.' Sincerely, Scott. #99887 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 2:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Connie) - In a message dated 8/8/2009 11:40:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, (and connie), Regarding: H: "That's a good quote, IMO, indicating conditionality w/nothing 'carried over.' I would bet on no intermediary state, but I consider the matter unimportant." Scott: Right. 'Nothing carried over' meaning no entity in an intermediate state. No bardo. I think the matter *is* very important, and it is important to get it straight. As connie points out, the fantasy of the bardo state is rife with a belief in control of destiny by a conscious act of will, and this sort of belief is also adapted and wrongly applied to this existence and the dhammaa which arise and fall away here. Since rebirth-linking follows death-consciousness immediately, as is the case with each successive moment of consciousness, there is never room to misunderstand volition and result (which the whole bardo thing totally does). Consider Visuddhimagga VIII, note 54, (from the Paramattha-ma~njuusaa, Visuddhimagga A.t.thakathaa) regarding 'mindfulness with breath as the object' and demonstrating a point which can then be adopted as a general principle: "...For the notion of a beginning (aadi cintaa) is here in the sense of first arising, not in the sense of just arising [once only]. For they actually go on arising throughout the [whole length] from the navel to the nose-tip; and wherever they arise, there in that same place they dissolve, because there is no (movement) of dhammas. The ordinary term 'motion' (gatisama~n~naa) refers to successive arisings in adjacent locations (desantaruppati) according to conditions..." Scott: This applies, then, to every moment of consciousness. The ruupa which comprise 'breath' arise and fall away first in one place, then in another, and so on. The fact of 'no movement of dhammas' is basic and essential, hence 'important.' Sincerely, Scott. =========================== The reason I consider the matter unimportant is that, IMO, there are no gaps in consciousness, and whether we call the state immediately following death "intermediate" or "initial state of the next loka," there is no gap, just as there is no in the midst of life right now. What is important is to not think there is any soul plunked down anywhere, or so it seems to me. But I suppose it varies from person to person what is important, depending on the significance the matter has to that person as regards relinquishment. With metta, Howard Impermanence /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #99888 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 6:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" revisit Vis. XVII. nilovg Dear Scott (and Howard), I am always for revisiting. Op 8-aug-2009, om 16:36 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > Scott: Visuddhimagga XVII 158, 161: > > "One ought to consider the [pair] death and birth > Under aggregates, object, cause, destiny, feeling, > Happiness, and then thinking applied and sustained, > Distinguishing them by unlikeness and likeness... > > Khandhaaramma.nagatihetu-vedanaapiitivitakkavicaarehi; > Bhedaabhedaviseso, cutisandhiina.m pari~n~neyyo. > > "A mere state that has got its conditions > Ushers in the ensuing existence; > While it does not migrate from the past, > With no cause in the past it is not." > > Laddhapaccayamiti dhammamattameta.m bhavantaramupeti; > Naassa tato sa.nkanti, na tato hetu.m vinaa hoti. ------- N: Text Vis.161: A mere state that has got its conditions Ushers in the ensuing existence; While it does not migrate from the past, With no cause in the past it is not. --------- Text Vis. 162: So it is a mere material and immaterial state, arising when it has obtained its conditions, that is spoken of, saying that it comes into the next becoming; it is not a lasting being, not a soul. And it has neither transmigrated from the past becoming nor yet is it manifested here without cause from that. ---------- N: As to the conditions, the Tiika states that ignorance and so on are the cause. So long as ignorance and clinging have not been eradicated, there is a cause for rebirth. As to the expression, ‘it comes’ (upeti), this, according to the Tiika, is an expression of conventional language (vohaara). Therefore he said, ‘ it is not a lasting being, not a soul.’ The meaning is that there is arising of citta in a next life so long as there are conditions for it. ------------ Nina. #99889 From: "colette" Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 5:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" ksheri3 Hi Scott and Howard, in the few minutes I have left I'm tryijng to catch up on this thread of "intermediate states" since this is a Bardo consciounsess and is found in many WEstern traditions i.e. purgatory. > > "A mere state that has got its conditions > Ushers in the ensuing existence; > While it does not migrate from the past, > With no cause in the past it is not." > ------------------------------------------------ colette: I like that Scott, thanx. > That's a good quote, IMO, indicating conditionality w/nothing "carried > over." > --------------------------------------------- colette: I take it that Howard made that comment where I reply that i'm begining to question the actuality of and the potential of "nothing being carried over as a causation" i'm just begining to probe deep into the actual CAUSATION of things (see Yoga Nidra, Turiya, etc) --------------------------------- > Scott: There is no such thing as 'actual non-existence', so yeah, it means > 'wrong destiny.' (I don't subscribe to the intermediate state thing, by > the way.) Atthasaalinii (pp.86-87): > colette: WOW, WHAT A HALLUCINATION! what? "NO SUCH THING AS 'ACTUAL NON-EXISTENCE'? come now, are you implying that Zen concept of the moment as being the totality of existance? Shunyata could not possibly exist if it was not first for EXISTANCE or FULLNESS. Is it possible for you to actually tell us what the first thought you had when you woke up, WAS? Okay, lets reduce it a little and take "today" as the example. What was the first thought you had TODAY when you woke up? Was that thought produced in or by your Alaya-Vijnana? Was that thought worked with in your state of Turiya (see Hinduism and Tantra)? Where did you or where could you have possibly come up with a "first thought" if it was not for something already planted, such as a bija? --------------------------- it means > 'wrong destiny.' (I don't subscribe to the intermediate state thing, by colette: HOLY .... SCOTT, where are you going with this? ZOIKS, 'wrong destiny'? What the ...? Destiny you say, that comes from those stinkin' money grabbers on Wall Street that are overextended and need a body to snatch as if they were employees in the Chicago suburbs where BODY SNATCHING in grave yards is a normal practice. Destiny is for those that have no mind with which to think and can only exist as long as a main frame computer were/was/is imputting data into their mindless CRT. oops, time to go, damn, I want to play this one out! toodles, colette -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Scott - > > In a message dated 8/8/2009 10:36:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > scduncan@... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > Regarding: > > H: "So, I guess 'agati', though the word form suggests actual > non-existence, may be a synonym for 'duggati' but with a connotation of 'being nowhere' > or an outcaste or persona non grata as regards the Dhamma." > > Scott: Visuddhimagga XVII 158, 161: > > "One ought to consider the [pair] death and birth > Under aggregates, object, cause, destiny, feeling, > Happiness, and then thinking applied and sustained, > Distinguishing them by unlikeness and likeness... <...> #99890 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 3:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Colette (and Scott) - In a message dated 8/8/2009 3:03:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: Hi Scott and Howard, in the few minutes I have left I'm tryijng to catch up on this thread of "intermediate states" since this is a Bardo consciounsess and is found in many WEstern traditions i.e. purgatory. ============================= I think that's an interesting observation, Colette. I never made that association of a bardo with purgatory. Interesting commonality. :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99891 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 9:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" scottduncan2 Dear Howard, (and connie), Regarding: H: "...The reason I consider the matter unimportant is that, IMO, there are no gaps in consciousness, and whether we call the state immediately following death 'intermediate' or 'initial state of the next loka,' there is no gap..." Scott: 'State' is for 'dhamma,' represented temporally as a discrete moment. While there is no gap between discrete moments of consciousness, there is the falling away of a preceding dhamma or state, followed immediately - without a gap, as it were - by the arising of a subsequent dhamma or state. This goes equally within a given existence as it does between planes - the end of that existence and the beginning of a next existence. If one considers the 'initial state of the next loka' and 'intermediate state' to be interchangeable nomenclature, (that is, considers the terms to be synonymous) then one is left having to describe what this 'intermediate state' is. This would have to be a state as yet undelineated. Since there are no other planes enumerated than those already established, and since 'intermediate state' is not one of them, we are dealing only with established planes of existence. This takes us back to having to consider that death consciousness is followed immediately, without a gap, by rebirth-linking consciousness in a 'new' plane of existence. Any other speculations about 'intermediate states' are beyond scope and are, as I see it, only matters of imagination. Sincerely, Scott. #99892 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 10:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding: Me: "There is no such thing as 'actual non-existence', so yeah, it means 'wrong destiny.' (I don't subscribe to the intermediate state thing, by the way.) colette: "WOW, WHAT A HALLUCINATION! what? 'NO SUCH THING AS 'ACTUAL NON-EXISTENCE'? come now, are you implying that Zen concept of the moment as being the totality of existance?" Scott: Well, I don't know about the Zen concept thing, but I do consider that 'the moment,' since it arises from nothing and falls away leaving nothing, is 'the totality of existence' in its barest form. This leaves aside conditions for the next moment for now. c: "Shunyata could not possibly exist if it was not first for EXISTANCE or FULLNESS." Scott: The emptiness I subscribe to is the one referring to a dhamma being 'empty of self,' and not to more modern theories about dhammas being essenceless and flowing. c: "Is it possible for you to actually tell us what the first thought you had when you woke up, WAS? Okay, lets reduce it a little and take 'today' as the example. What was the first thought you had TODAY when you woke up? Was that thought produced in or by your Alaya-Vijnana? Was that thought worked with in your state of Turiya (see Hinduism and Tantra)? Where did you or where could you have possibly come up with a 'first thought' if it was not for something already planted, such as a bija?" Scott: My first thought, actually, was something like, 'I wonder if I'll get anymore of the housework caught up today than I did yesterday,' followed by a groan of sorts. I don't think any of the above occurred to me. I don't really study these other things you refer to, I'm sorry to say. colette: "HOLY .... SCOTT, where are you going with this? ZOIKS, 'wrong destiny'? What the ...? Destiny you say, that comes from those stinkin' money grabbers on Wall Street that are overextended and need a body to snatch as if they were employees in the Chicago suburbs where BODY SNATCHING in grave yards is a normal practice. Destiny is for those that have no mind with which to think and can only exist as long as a main frame computer were/was/is imputting data into their mindless CRT." Scott: Well, we have 'gati' which is 'going, going away, (opp. aagati coming)' or 'direction, course' or 'going away, passing on' or 'behaviour, state or condition of life, sphere of existence, element, especially characterized as sugati & duggati, a happy or an unhappy existence,' (PTS PED). Gati is related to 'gacchati,' which is 'to go, to be in motion, to move, to go on' or 'to go as a stronger expression for to be, i. e. to behave, to have existence, to fare)... Here belongs gati 'existence,' as mode of existing, element, sphere of being,' (also PTS PED). And so 'destiny' as in 'plane of existence;' not as you were thinking, colette. Catch you later. Sincerely, Scott. #99893 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Aug 8, 2009 11:44 pm Subject: What is Consciousness? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is Consciousness? The Blessed Buddha has explained consciousness as: A: Definitions: What, now, is consciousness? There are six kinds of consciousness (viññana-khandha): 1: Consciousness of form is visual consciousness, 2: Consciousness of sound is auditory consciousness, 3: Consciousness of smell is olfactory consciousness, 4: Consciousness of taste is gustatory consciousness, 5: Consciousness of touch is tactile consciousness, 6: Consciousness of thought is mental consciousness. SN: 22:56 B: Causation by Dependent Origination: The arising of consciousness is dependent upon specific conditions... Without presence of these conditions, no consciousness will ever emerge... Consciousness is named after the conditions upon which it is dependent! Consciousness, whose arising depends on the encounter of eye & forms, is called visual consciousness. Consciousness, whose arising depends on the ear & sounds, is called auditory consciousness. Consciousness, whose arising depends on the nose and smells, is called olfactory consciousness. Consciousness, whose arising depends on the tongue and taste, is called gustatory consciousness. Consciousness, whose arising depends on the meeting of the body or skin and touch is called tactile consciousness. Consciousness, whose arising depends on mind meeting a mental object, state, idea or thought is called mental consciousness. MN 38 The central role of active Attention: Even though the eye is intact, if external form does not fall within the field of vision, then no attentive combination of eye & form takes place, therefore there will not emerge any visual consciousness. Or even though external form actually fall within the field of vision, yet if no attentive combination of eye & form takes place, there will neither emerge any visual consciousness. Only if, the eye is intact, external form fall within the range of vision, & attentive combination of eye & form takes place, then there arises the corresponding phenomenon of visual consciousness. (Similarly so with the other 5 kinds of consciousness) MN 28 C: Dependency on the other four Clusters of Clinging: It is impossible for anyone to explain the passing out of one existence, and the entering into a new process of existence during transmigration, or the initiation, growth, increase, and development of consciousness, independently of form, feeling, perception, and mental construction... SN 22: 53 D: Consciousness is constructed & causes a duality: Naming & Forming: The Origin of Consciousness is the arising of Mental Construction... The Ceasing of Mental Construction also ceases Consciousness... The Origin of Name-&-Form is the arising of Consciousness... The Ceasing of Consciousness also ceases Name-&-Form... MN 9 Only this absolute silencing is Peace, is Bliss, is Freedom… Comment: Like space has no essence in itself beyond being 'spacious', but can contain, accommodate, hold, & include all material phenomena, then similarly has consciousness no essence in itself beyond being 'aware' of all the mental phenomena it can manifest, display, show, exhibit, expose, express, create and reveal. It defines & establishes being... It is momentary and vanishes instantly after it has arisen. It is Not an abiding presence, entity, soul, I, me, ego, core, nor any identity... Apart from conditions, there is nothing arising as or in consciousness... All forms of consciousness are impermanence, suffering, and no-self, whether it is past, future or present, gross or subtle, arisen internally in oneself or externally in others, inferior or exalted, remote or near... Buddha likened consciousness to a deceiving trick: A made-up illusion... Consciousness is like a burning pit of hot embers one should not enter! <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri <...> #99894 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 12:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Still Misunderstood Vanapattha Suttam: Re: More on Seclusion in Jungle sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- On Sat, 8/8/09, han tun wrote: >I understand now, my partner! I thought you were ridiculing me:>) ... S: Let me assure you that I don't ridicule people either in person or behind their backs - it's not my style at all! So whatever I say, please know it's not this, Partner! I just quoted "almost agree" to show you didn't completely agree - that was all. Back to the substance a little later:-)) Metta Sarah ======= #99895 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Be here now sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- On Sat, 8/8/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >Scott: Yes. The cittas are important. This bears on so many > discussions on the list. It's not the forest, it's the cittas. It's > not the posture, it's the cittas. > ... > Sarah: Just shout that a little louder for all to hear:-)) > ... -------- >Nina: Hear, hear. ------ S: :-) Metta Sarah #99896 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 12:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, I think it's a rather helpful discussion, so let's keep chatting.... a change from the forests! --- On Sat, 8/8/09, kenhowardau wrote: >>K: I accept (after a lot of prompting) that the Buddha sometimes taught > other kinds of kusala (exclusive of satipatthana) . How he did that is > another question. It would have to have been without giving the > impression of control. > .... > S: I don't understand why there is any difficulty with this or why there would need to be any "impression of control". ----- K:> I don't understand why there wouldn't be an obvious difficulty. As I said in a previous post, I don't see how anyone could teach morality without also teaching satipatthana. .... S: Well many others did and do. Of course, in the Buddha's case, an understanding of satipatthana is always implied, even when talking about dana or metta. There cannot be satipatthana at every moment, however or at all for those who're not ready to comprehend anatta and no control. The Buddha therefore talked about all kinds of kusala and never gave the impression of control. If some misunderstood/misunderstand the message in this way, that's because of their ignorance or lack of accumulated wisdom, not his. So no difficulty on his part, but many lotuses not ready to open. ... >It's easy enough to extol the benefits of generosity and kindness, but what if someone were to ask what they were? ' Are they theoretical constructs? Are they arbitrarily defined? Are they rituals? If they are rituals, who is to say which ritual is good and which is bad; won't there always be gray areas?' ... S: Yes, but what you describe is not a description of generosity, kindness or their benefits. For this there has to be an understanding of what generosity and kindness really are. Of course, there are degrees and kinds of such understanding.... .... ------------ ------- >S: > If we discuss the value of metta now, it may be a condition for metta to arise and develop - hearing, considering, development as usual. No control by any self involved. ------------ ------- K:> Yes, so there are two essentials in teaching morality. First, generosity, metta and wisdom are realities, not mere matters of opinion. Second, they cannot be controlled; they are not rituals. >Sounds like satipatthana to me! :-) ... S: Yes, it does to me too :-). This is why it's only through an understanding of satipatthana that morality and metta can really be perfected and purified in the higher sense. People wonder why we stress so much on anatta and no control, instead of discussing other qualities, but this is the reason. It's always limited whilst taken for self. So we discuss and share the benefit of metta or generosity (as emphasised by the Buddha too) and let others appreciate and develop according to the level of understanding. As Nina said, "we cannot fathom the Buddha's wisdom when he preached this or that sutta." What we do know is that satipatthana was always implied, even if not expressly mentioned in each sutta, as you stress. One path.... As I said, I think it's more a quibble over words than any disagreement, but let's keep talking as it's about your only thread alive:-)) Metta Sarah ====== #99897 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 12:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" revisit Vis. XVII. scottduncan2 Dear Nina (and Howard), Regarding: N: "Text Vis. 162: So it is a mere material and immaterial state, arising when it has obtained its conditions, that is spoken of, saying that it comes into the next becoming; it is not a lasting being, not a soul. And it has neither transmigrated from the past becoming nor yet is it manifested here without cause from that." Scott: Yes, and this Howard also concurs with. As far as 'intermediate state' goes, given the described exploits attributable to an entity existing within such a state, this would have to be a 'lasting being' or 'soul' and hence is out of bounds theoretically. N: "As to the conditions, the Tiika states that ignorance and so on are the cause. So long as ignorance and clinging have not been eradicated, there is a cause for rebirth." Scott: And 'agati' would refer to there not being conditions for a given 'kind' of rebirth? N: "As to the expression, 'it comes' (upeti), this, according to the Tiika, is an expression of conventional language (vohaara). Therefore he said, 'it is not a lasting being, not a soul.' The meaning is that there is arising of citta in a next life so long as there are conditions for it." Scott: And again, can you elaborate on the meaning of 'agati' in this context? Sincerely, Scott. #99898 From: "connie" Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 3:28 am Subject: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" nichiconn Hi Howard, ... once you fully understand death, there's nothing more to learn. -------------------------------------- H: Could you say more about that belief? It doesn't strike me as quite right. -------------------------------------- c: Yeah, said that way, it does sound a little funny, but consider Death as in (pari)nibbaana or 'non arising'... just the 'crow flies' version of a long long way to go & a lot to learn. Anyway, here's another death thing I like, even tho it's author believed in a number of strange things, including an intermediate existence of varying length: << How swiftly the days pass! It makes us realize how short are the years we have left. Friends enjoy the cherry blossoms together on spring mornings and then they are gone, carried away like the blossoms by the winds of impermanence, leaving nothing but their names. Although the blossoms have scattered, the cherry trees will bloom again with the coming of spring, but when will those people be reborn? The companions with whom we composed poems praising the moon on autumn evenings have vanished with the moon behind the shifting clouds. Only their mute images remain in our hearts. The moon has set behind the western mountains, yet we shall compose poetry under it again next autumn. But where are our companions who have passed away? Even when the approaching Tiger of Death roars, we do not hear. How many more days are left to the sheep bound for slaughter? Deep in the Snow Mountains lives a bird called Kankucho which, tortured by the numbing cold, cries that it will build a nest in the morning. Yet, when the day breaks, it sleeps away the hours in the warm light of the morning sun without building its nest. So it continues to cry vainly throughout its life. The same is true of people. When they fall into hell and suffocate in its flames, they long to be reborn as humans and vow to put everything else aside and serve the three treasures in order to attain enlightenment in their next life. But even on the rare occasions when they happen to be reborn human, the winds of fame and fortune blow violently and the lamp of Buddhist practice is easily extinguished. They squander their wealth without a qualm on meaningless trifles but begrudge even the smallest contribution to the Buddha, the Law, and the Priest. This is very serious, for then they are being hindered by messengers from hell. This is the meaning of "Good by the inch invites evil by the yard." -- Nichiren. >> peace, connie #99899 From: "connie" Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 4:00 am Subject: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" nichiconn Hi Scott, Howard, Nina A footnote to the first of the three "agati" suttas in AN/Gradual Sayings 4's: << Agati, not leading to the gati or bourn: sometimes taken as Nibbaana (for one who has reached it there is no goal further, acc. to the orthodox interpretation). Here, def. by Comy. (as at VM ii 683) as wrong action done under the influence of desire, hate or delusion. >> The next sutta gives the opposite and the one after that combines the other two, [a footnote in GS saying "Spoken thus, says Comy., for the sake of the 'intelligent'"] - 19. "Cattaarimaani, bhikkhave, agatigamanaani. Katamaani cattaari? Chandaagati.m gacchati , dosaagati.m gacchati, mohaagati.m gacchati, bhayaagati.m gacchati - imaani kho, bhikkhave, cattaari agatigamanaani. Monks, there are these four goings to the no-bourn. What four? One goes to the no-bourn (agati) through desire, ill-will, delusion or fear. These are the four. "Cattaarimaani, bhikkhave, naagatigamanaani. Katamaani cattaari? Na chandaagati.m gacchati, na dosaagati.m gacchati, na mohaagati.m gacchati, na bhayaagati.m gacchati - imaani kho, bhikkhave, cattaari naagatigamanaanii"ti. Monks, there are these four goings to the bourn. What four? One goes not to the no-bourn through desire, ill-will, delusion, fear. These are the four. "Chandaa dosaa bhayaa mohaa, yo dhamma.m ativattati; Nihiiyati tassa yaso, kaa.lapakkheva candimaa. Led by desire, ill-will, delusion, fear, If one transgresses Dhamma, his good name Fades as the moon in the dark fortnight wanes. "Chandaa dosaa bhayaa mohaa, yo dhamma.m naativattati; aapuurati tassa yaso, sukkapakkheva candimaa"ti. Led by desire, ill-will, delusion, fear, If one transgresses not Dhamma, his good name Waxes, as in the bright fortnight the moon. DN 33.1.11(19) 'Four ways of going wrong (agata-gamanaani): One goes wrong through desire (chanda), hatred, delusion, fear. (snip pali) ------------------------------------------ H: Mmm, not bad. Hatred and fear are instances of aversion. Are there more instances do you think? ------------------------------------------- c: I don't know what you mean: more instances. More 'reasons' that wouldn't fit under the broad "three poisons" (greed, hatred, delusion) umbrellas? peace, connie #99900 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 6:04 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (05) ptaus1 Hi Chew, Thanks for your response. Also, your abhidhamma blog is great - thanks! Best wishes pt #99901 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 6:29 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (16) ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. > N: Hot and cold are not in this context opposites. They are the > element of heat or temperature, but in different amounts. See > Abhidhammattha Sangaha, U Narada's notes on tejo dhaatu: and cold are the properties of tejo. Intense tejo is heat, and mild > tejo is cold.> pt: 1. When you say "in different amounts", am I correct in understanding it as follows: a) for a particular rupa kalapa that is currently experienced, there is only a set amount of the element of heat at that moment? b) the designation of that particular amount of heat element as "hot or cold" is conceptual. That is, it would depend on comparison with a past experience of the element of heat? 2. If saying that "intense tejo is heat, and mild tejo is cold", would the same apply to the element of wind? That is, intense wind is motion, and mild wind is pressure? Thanks. Best wishes pt #99902 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 8:36 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 1, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Nina: “I think that the moments of impatience are the usual moments of akusala that are bound to arise anyway.” Acharn: “They have to arise when there are conditions for them, but it depends on the development of paññå whether one continues to accumulate more akusala”. Nina: “I did not realize that the moments of impatience really hinder paññå.” Acharn: ”Nothing can hinder paññå. However, if you do not understand the disadvantage of akusala you will have more akusala. People desire great paññå, but is there paññå that sees the uselessness of akusala at this moment? Paññå can develop with all kinds of wholesome cetasikas.” ”You help us to see more the disadvantage of akusala in the situations of our life.” Acharn: “The details of Dhamma can help a great deal when you carefully think about the way to develop right understanding. We should understand the moment of aversion. Without understanding of the reality which is akusala, ignorance cannot be eliminated.” Nina: “Before, we knew more in theory about akusala and kusala, we did not realize so much the disadvantage of each moment of akusala. This has become much clearer during this journey.” Acharn: “You can come to understand the importance of developing patience, also patience through body and speech.” Nina: “When the luggage did not come I was so impatient, I lifted my hands. That was conditioned by impatience. There was no awareness.” Acharn: “Patience can condition one to refrain from speaking certain words or from doing what is akusala. When we attend to this very moment we do not mind what will happen, we can be patient, no matter what will occur. Yesterday we had to wait at the airport for the luggage a long time. It was quite a test. In this way we can develop more wholesome cetasikas. Only reading and writing about the Dhamma is not enough, one should consider precisely the reality of this moment.” ------------- Nina. #99903 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 8:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Atom vs kalaapaa nilovg Dear Chew, Op 8-aug-2009, om 17:26 heeft Chew het volgende geschreven: > For my opinion, atom in Physics is not the same as the kalaapaa in > Abhidhamma. > > Do you have any idea about it? ------ N: The answer to this is in your former post which I appreciated: Ch: As a being, we only experience the dhamma at the present moment. The ultimate realities arise and cease. After its have ceased, it is not there anymore. We are not able to find it anywhere. Due to conditions, it is arising. A totally new phenomena is arising. After that it is ceasing. It hasn't come before. After it has ceased, it disappeared. In ultimate sense, the external phenomena has the 8 kinds of nature. It can be seen, that is due to it has form. It has temperature, that is due to it has fire-element. The other rupa are being supported, due to it has its nutritive essence to sustain them. They are together, due to there is water-element to keep them together to become in a group. Etc. These eight rupa group together and to be called a kalapa. Today, in the conventional sense, we experience the air pollution. This is our group kamma. ------- N: Just with regard to group kamma: this may create confusion to people who do not realize that each person receives the result of his past kamma. When several people are in the same sirtuation, experiencing pain, in case of an accident, it is still a fact that each individual receives the result of his past kamma. For one person pain may be worse, another person may experience just a little discomfort. ------- Continuing about kalapa: as you know people should not mix science and ultimate realities. Science is not mental development. We learn about kalapas to see the intricate ways rupas are conditioning and are conditioned. When learning more details it becomes clearer that no self can control them. Colour arises in a group, and the other rupas in that group condition it. Only colour in that group can impinge on eyesense, which is another rupa arising in a group, originated by kamma. Only eyesense in that group can receive colour. Seeing does not arise immediately. First bhavangacittas arise and fall away, and then eye-door adverting- consciousness arises, to be succeeded by seeing. There is a process of cittas experiencing colour through the eye-door, and during that process colour has not fallen away yet. Rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. It is amazing that colour impinges on the eyesense so that there are conditions for seeing. How could a person make seeing arise? Science can be applied to help people in material ways, to cure diseases. But in the ultimate sense it depends on kamma whether someone experiences pain or bodily ease. Science cannot cure people of ignorance, it does not lead to freedom from the cycle which is the real dukkha. ------ Nina. #99904 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 9:00 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (16) nilovg Dear pt, Op 9-aug-2009, om 8:29 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > 1. When you say "in different amounts", am I correct in > understanding it as follows: > > a) for a particular rupa kalapa that is currently experienced, > there is only a set amount of the element of heat at that moment? ------- N: It is only for a moment, intense or less intense, it does not matter. ---------- > pt:b) the designation of that particular amount of heat element as > "hot or cold" is conceptual. That is, it would depend on comparison > with a past experience of the element of heat? --------- N: There is no need to think about it or to compare. The element of heat is just a kind of ruupa, and it is not a thing, it does not belong to anyone. It arises because of conditions, that is all that needs to be known. It is different from nama that experiences heat. ---------- > > pt: 2. If saying that "intense tejo is heat, and mild tejo is > cold", would the same apply to the element of wind? That is, > intense wind is motion, and mild wind is pressure? ------- N: We cannot say that. Again, no need to think about it in this way. when motion or pressure appears it is enough to know it as only a kind of rupa. Nina. #99905 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 9:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" revisit Vis. XVII. nilovg Dear Scott, Connie wrote about this. There are different meanings in different contexts. Nina. Op 9-aug-2009, om 2:53 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > N: "As to the expression, 'it comes' (upeti), this, according to the > Tiika, is an expression of conventional language (vohaara). > Therefore he said, 'it is not a lasting being, not a soul.' The > meaning is > that there is arising of citta in a next life so long as there are > conditions for it." > > Scott: And again, can you elaborate on the meaning of 'agati' in > this context? #99906 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Connie) - In a message dated 8/8/2009 5:53:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, (and connie), Regarding: H: "...The reason I consider the matter unimportant is that, IMO, there are no gaps in consciousness, and whether we call the state immediately following death 'intermediate' or 'initial state of the next loka,' there is no gap..." Scott: 'State' is for 'dhamma,' represented temporally as a discrete moment. While there is no gap between discrete moments of consciousness, there is the falling away of a preceding dhamma or state, followed immediately - without a gap, as it were - by the arising of a subsequent dhamma or state. This goes equally within a given existence as it does between planes - the end of that existence and the beginning of a next existence. If one considers the 'initial state of the next loka' and 'intermediate state' to be interchangeable nomenclature, (that is, considers the terms to be synonymous) then one is left having to describe what this 'intermediate state' is. This would have to be a state as yet undelineated. Since there are no other planes enumerated than those already established, and since 'intermediate state' is not one of them, we are dealing only with established planes of existence. This takes us back to having to consider that death consciousness is followed immediately, without a gap, by rebirth-linking consciousness in a 'new' plane of existence. Any other speculations about 'intermediate states' are beyond scope and are, as I see it, only matters of imagination. ---------------------------------------------- Well, of course we don't really know. There are a couple suttas that are suggestive of an intermediate state. Do you know of any sutta that teaches of immediate realm transition w/o transitional period being the only circumstance? That would be interesting and very persuasive to me. ----------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99907 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 12:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Well, of course we don't really know. There are a couple suttas that are suggestive of an intermediate state. Do you know of any sutta that teaches of immediate realm transition w/o transitional period being the only circumstance? That would be interesting and very persuasive to me." Scott: No, thank you, Howard. Here is where we differ and here is the point of diminishing returns. I don't consider that an intermediate state was taught by the Buddha (and hence I do 'know' there is no such thing). You've got other ideas. While I appreciate the brief discussion you've approached me with, I've no interest in a sutta chase nor in persuading you. You have your beliefs... Sincerely, Scott. #99908 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 9:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 8/8/2009 11:28:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: Hi Howard, ... once you fully understand death, there's nothing more to learn. -------------------------------------- H: Could you say more about that belief? It doesn't strike me as quite right. -------------------------------------- c: Yeah, said that way, it does sound a little funny, but consider Death as in (pari)nibbaana or 'non arising'... just the 'crow flies' version of a long long way to go & a lot to learn. ---------------------------------------------- Mmm. Well, I suppose that dying with equanimity and full acceptance, with not an iota of resistance, might well serve as a portal to liberation, for such might constitute a complete relinquishment of (sense of) self. ----------------------------------------------- Anyway, here's another death thing I like, even tho it's author believed in a number of strange things, including an intermediate existence of varying length: << How swiftly the days pass! It makes us realize how short are the years we have left. Friends enjoy the cherry blossoms together on spring mornings and then they are gone, carried away like the blossoms by the winds of impermanence, leaving nothing but their names. Although the blossoms have scattered, the cherry trees will bloom again with the coming of spring, but when will those people be reborn? The companions with whom we composed poems praising the moon on autumn evenings have vanished with the moon behind the shifting clouds. Only their mute images remain in our hearts. The moon has set behind the western mountains, yet we shall compose poetry under it again next autumn. But where are our companions who have passed away? Even when the approaching Tiger of Death roars, we do not hear. How many more days are left to the sheep bound for slaughter? Deep in the Snow Mountains lives a bird called Kankucho which, tortured by the numbing cold, cries that it will build a nest in the morning. Yet, when the day breaks, it sleeps away the hours in the warm light of the morning sun without building its nest. So it continues to cry vainly throughout its life. The same is true of people. When they fall into hell and suffocate in its flames, they long to be reborn as humans and vow to put everything else aside and serve the three treasures in order to attain enlightenment in their next life. But even on the rare occasions when they happen to be reborn human, the winds of fame and fortune blow violently and the lamp of Buddhist practice is easily extinguished. They squander their wealth without a qualm on meaningless trifles but begrudge even the smallest contribution to the Buddha, the Law, and the Priest. This is very serious, for then they are being hindered by messengers from hell. This is the meaning of "Good by the inch invites evil by the yard." -- Nichiren. >> ------------------------------------------ Pretty. :-) ----------------------------------------- peace, connie ======================= With metta, Howard Impermanence /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #99909 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 1:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" revisit Vis. XVII. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: "Connie wrote about this. There are different meanings in different contexts." Scott: Thanks, Nina. I'll pursue it in the context of connie's post. Sincerely, Scott. #99910 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 9:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and Scott) - In a message dated 8/9/2009 12:01:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: DN 33.1.11(19) 'Four ways of going wrong (agata-gamanaani): One goes wrong through desire (chanda), hatred, delusion, fear. (snip pali) ------------------------------------------ H: Mmm, not bad. Hatred and fear are instances of aversion. Are there more instances do you think? ------------------------------------------- c: I don't know what you mean: more instances. More 'reasons' that wouldn't fit under the broad "three poisons" (greed, hatred, delusion) umbrellas? =============================== What I was wondering was what other aversive namas fall under the category of "aversion" besides (varying degrees) of hatred and of fear. Hatred I suppose ranges from mild dislike and boredom-with to outright despising, and may also include disgust, and fear of course varies in intensity. But fear is not the same sort of aversion as hatred. So hatred and fear are two distinct facets of aversion. My question is whether there are yet others - perhaps "unease" for example. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99911 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 9:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 8/9/2009 8:57:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Well, of course we don't really know. There are a couple suttas that are suggestive of an intermediate state. Do you know of any sutta that teaches of immediate realm transition w/o transitional period being the only circumstance? That would be interesting and very persuasive to me." Scott: No, thank you, Howard. Here is where we differ and here is the point of diminishing returns. I don't consider that an intermediate state was taught by the Buddha (and hence I do 'know' there is no such thing). ----------------------------------------------- Well, IMO, you are identifying belief, a belief which I share, BTW, with knowing. For me, knowing is knowing, not belief. There are folks in the world who think they *know* that "Allah is God and Mohammad his prophet." ----------------------------------------------- You've got other ideas. While I appreciate the brief discussion you've approached me with, I've no interest in a sutta chase nor in persuading you. You have your beliefs... ----------------------------------------------- My belief coincides with yours on this issue, but I recognize it as just belief. ------------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ============================= With metta, Howard Safeguarding the Truth "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth." "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. "If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has something reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. (From the Canki Sutta) #99912 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 1:41 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: space, continued. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 6-aug-2009, om 2:58 heeft sarahprocterabbott het volgende geschreven: > S: As an aside, just looking at the English above, assuming the first > is referring to paricchedha aakaasa ruupa, I'm surprised it doesn't > read: "confining or delimiting". "Confined or delimited" would have > the > opposite meaning, as confined or delimited, as in ear etc. The space > that separates kalapas is not "confined or delimited" space.] ------- N: In the Topics of Abh., Commentary (Wijeratne and Gethin, p. 224) -------- In the Abhidhamattha Sangaha, transl by Ven. Narada, p. 294, a remark about outer space. N: Nijjiiva is: non-life or 'soul'. His translation is not correct. By eternal he means, I think, not arising and falling away. ------ It is a good idea to look at the context of the opinions of the non- Theravadins. As you say in your conclusion: NEW S: In other words, I believe the reference to open (aja.ta) space, refers to the wrong idea of the 'thusness' of all things, an idea of a whole, being unconditioned. As the text points out, this is merely a concept, not a reality. As the summary of the commentary just quoted said, they believe there is "an immutable something called thusness (or suchness) in the very nature of all things, material or otherwise [taken as a whole]. And because this 'thusness' is not included in the [particular] conditioned matter, etc., itself, therefore it is unconditioned." ------- N: It is not so clear whether we should see the Kathavatthu text is merely directed towards the Uttaraapathakas and Mahi.msaasakas or does it categorically pertain to space that is not the pariccheda rupa? ------- As to the text of the mahaaraahulovadasutta, I compared with the Co, more about pariccheda ruupa. The Buddha explained this rupa by means of examples of hollows in the body so that Raahula would not be attached to the body. When he asked the Blessed One about Mindfulness of Breathing, why did the Blessed One speak about the meditation subject of materiality? He spoke so that he (Rahula) would abandon his attachment to materiality. It must have occurred to him thus: “Since attachment has arisen in Rahula on account of his body, and the meditation subject on materiality was explained to him before in brief, I shall now also make him dissect the body in fortytwo ways and thus cause him to get rid of attachment that is dependent on it and to attain the truth of Dhamma.” Why did he then explain in detail the element of space? In order to point out the derived material phenomena. Before he had spoken about the four great Elements, not about the derived physical phenomena. Therefore, in order to point these out in that way, he explained in detail the element of space. He also made known the matter that is delimitated by the internal space. --------- With regard to the element of space, the expression, “connected with space” means: having the characteristic of emptiness. As to the expression, clung to, this means, clung to, grasped and misapprehended. The meaning is that it refers to the bodily frame. As to the expression, cavity in the ear, this means, an opening in the ear, not touched by flesh and blood, etc. With regard to cavity in the nose etc. this is also according to the same system of teaching. As to the words “and that by which” , this means: by which cavity. As to the words, “he swallows”, this means, he makes it go inside. From the base of the tongue as far as the mucous membrane of the intestines of humans there is a hollow tract of one cube and four fingers length. Now, this is said in this connection. As to the words, “And where”, this means: at whichever occasion. As to the expression, it remains, this means: it is established. What is like a large filter for humans is called intestines. Now, this is said in this connection. As to the words, it comes out at the lower part, this means: where it comes out underneath. Here, the intestines have been referred to that are thirtytwo cubits (a cubit being half a yard) in length and coiled in twentyone places. Now, this is said in this connection. As to the words, or whatever else, this means: by this he explains the very subtle space situated between the inner skin and flesh and so on, which is like skin pores . Here, the other words should be understood in the same way as what is said with reference to the element of earth and so on . --------- Nina. #99913 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 1:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Well, IMO, you are identifying belief, a belief which I share, BTW, with knowing. For me, knowing is knowing, not belief. There are folks in the world who think they *know* that 'Allah is God and Mohammad his prophet'...My belief coincides with yours on this issue, but I recognize it as just belief." Scott: Okay, if we must... ;-) We'll have to agree to disagree, Howard, at least on this matter: I don't share your views about 'belief.' I believe that having an 'open mind' in these matters allows for an unhelpful and speculative eclecticism. Not all roads lead to Rome. There are not more than one way to skin a cat. The mountain top is not reachable by different routes. The Buddha did not teach an intermediate state, so there isn't one - not there might not be one. Let's stop, okay? I'll let you have that I'm inflexible and closed-minded, not given to the sophisticated thinking that weaves all sorts of interesting ideas into one with the notion that 'we just don't know for sure.' Anything is not possible. Sincerely, Scott. #99914 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 10:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 8/9/2009 9:50:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Well, IMO, you are identifying belief, a belief which I share, BTW, with knowing. For me, knowing is knowing, not belief. There are folks in the world who think they *know* that 'Allah is God and Mohammad his prophet'...My belief coincides with yours on this issue, but I recognize it as just belief." Scott: Okay, if we must... ;-) We'll have to agree to disagree, Howard, at least on this matter: I don't share your views about 'belief.' I believe that having an 'open mind' in these matters allows for an unhelpful and speculative eclecticism. Not all roads lead to Rome. There are not more than one way to skin a cat. The mountain top is not reachable by different routes. The Buddha did not teach an intermediate state, so there isn't one - not there might not be one. Let's stop, okay? -------------------------------------------------- You bet! ---------------------------------------------------- I'll let you have that I'm inflexible and closed-minded, not given to the sophisticated thinking that weaves all sorts of interesting ideas into one with the notion that 'we just don't know for sure.' Anything is not possible. Sincerely, Scott. ========================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99915 From: "connie" Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 4:06 pm Subject: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" nichiconn Dear Scott, Howard, VM ii 683 = Path of Purification xxii 55: Bad Ways is a term for doing what ought not to be done and not doing what ought to be done, out of zeal (desire), hate, delusion, and fear. They are called 'bad ways' because they are ways not to be travelled by Noble Ones. Path of Purity: Evil destiny is a synonym for doing what should not be done, and not doing what should be done through desire, hate, delusion, fear. It is called evil destiny because Ariyas should not go by it. C: Not to be / should not be done / travelled / gone along with ?? Simply no resorting in / to by the arahant- impossible, same as there are certain strong enough off currents / undertows that never arise for a (first) stream-having-goner. Chanda, dosa, bhaya... they're all pretty much opposite to peace / stilledness. I think the question I'm trying to come up with isn't so much the different degrees or facets / names describing dosa but more about "insight into what is to be feared" / bhaya ~naa.na ... what's the difference in the fearing here, maybe. off to work now & possibly the coast for a few days after, so ... see ya, connie #99916 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma friends gazita2002 hallo KenO I relate to what you have written here. As a nurse I see lots of suffering - the dukkha.dukkha type - and death, but often we do not think of our own death. Really tho, there is death at every moment as citta arises and falls away and thats just what it will be like at death moment - one citta falling away followed by another one - in any realm. I guess this is the scarey thing because we are attached to 'this' body and dont know what the next one will be. may we all develop wisdom and understanding to know the reality of life to help ourselves and others. patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Azita > > At times, I fear how I am going to die, will it be painful. When I see a frail elderly person, I also fear how my old age will be. When I see someone just passed away suddenly, I wonder how I feel if that is my family. Such is fear, the anxiety and there is no running away. Its difficult to face life adversity especially it happens to us. How will I react then? At times, it really scares me and will I be born in hell or lower realms? > > There are endless of them. Every time I think of it, I shudder. I tell myself to be brave, to see reality at least in this life. Not easy, but understanding reality at that moment, release me momentarily from such dukkha. I know even it is a little understanding of reality, even I know it is a drop among the ocean of my akusala cittas or my understanding still in the conceptual stage, to me that it is enough, to me it is salvation enough. This is all the hope and faith of dhamma, I have to face such adversities. A little but this little means so much. > > > With metta > Ken O > #99917 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Aug 9, 2009 11:08 pm Subject: Kamma is the Intention! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Intention behind the Action is the Kamma! The Blessed Buddha once said: It is the intention behind the action, that defines the kamma! Having wanted, wished, & willed, one acts by body, speech, and mind. There are actions (kamma), which cause later effects to ripen in hell! There are actions, which cause later effects to ripen as being animal! There is kamma, which cause later effects to ripen as a hungry ghost! There are actions, which cause later effects to ripen as human being! There is kamma, which cause later effects to ripen in divine states! The result of actions (vipaka) is of three kinds: Ripening here & now in the present life, in immediate next life, or in future lives. AN 6:63 Ownership and inheritance of the delayed results of action: All beings are the owners of their actions, inheritor of their deeds! They are literally created by & born of their behaviour, they are tied to their acts, & their undertakings determines their future destiny... Whatever they do, good as bad, the delayed results of that action, will be the theirs only... AN 10:206 Wherever beings spring into existence, there their actions will ripen! Wherever the effects of their past actions matures, there, they will earn the fruits of those deeds, be it in this life, or in the next life, or in any other remote future life. AN 3:33 Kamma = karma is just cause & delayed inevitable effect! Neither high up in the air or free space, nor deep down in the oceans, Nor hidden inside any distant remote & secret mountain cleft or cave Nowhere... is a place or location found in any universe, where one can escape the inevitable later results of wrong, bad, & evil behaviour... Dhammapada 127 Advantageous kamma & Detrimental kamma = action... Comments: Cause & Effect. Everything arises from a reason or cause! Doing Good gets Good! The result of advantageous action is pleasure! Doing Bad begets Evil! The result of disadvantageous action is pain! Suffering now is often the delayed result of own past bad behaviour! Enjoying now is often the delayed result of own past good behaviour! Not taking responsibility for one's own life is pathetic victimization; "The others or the circumstances did it!" playing the blame game... <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri <...> #99918 From: "sac9090" Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:33 am Subject: English translation of Complete Tipitaka sac9090 Hi. Does anyone know where I can get a complete MODERN English translation of the COMPLETE Tipitaka whether online or hard copies? #99919 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:47 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, We consider the development of right understanding as the goal of our life, but we tend to forget that when akusala arises there is ignorance at that very moment. At the moment of ignorance we do not develop paññå and we are going downhill. Acharn made this very clear to us during the journey. Patience can be developed when we have pain or when we are sick. I had a backache when waiting at the airport for a long time. Acharn said: “If you do not think much of the pain, it does not appear. Other things appear as objects, such as sound and hearing. One should forget about oneself, otherwise one is self-centered all the time.” When we were about to board the plane for Turkey Alan was very sick and he did not want to continue traveling. He was afraid of being sick on the plane. Acharn said: “Do not think of it, let it go. Everything just arises because of conditions. It is of no use to try to control your body. Awareness is aware naturally, this is the way. Develop understanding at any time, also when you cannot control your stomach.” Alan came along on the plane and he was not sick anymore. I spoke to Acharn about my daily life and I explained that I found my social life so tiring, always receiving guests or going out to parties. Acharn said that in such situations there are opportunities to think of the benefit of others. I mentioned that the social program I receive every week conditions aversion and that I express this in speech. Although I tell myself not to say anything I still speak with aversion about the program. We had the following conversation: Acharn: “Sometimes it looks as if you think of yourself first.” Nina: “It is the self that is in the way.” Acharn: “That is not good, even in conventional sense. If you think of making other people happy by entertaining them and going out to their parties, you will have the energy to do this, instead of thinking that it is too much. You can think: ‘It is my time to help’, and then kusala citta can arise. Everything can be changed by right understanding. We have to continue to develop right understanding and all wholesome cetasikas. Otherwise defilements cannot be eradicated.” ******* Nina. #99920 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:00 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (17) ptaus1 Hi all, Regarding different kinds of winds mentioned by Sariputta (and their Pali names kindly supplied by Han): > Saariputta explained about the internal element of motion: > [... And what, your reverences, is the internal element of motion? > Whatever is motion, wind, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as winds going upwards, winds going downwards, winds in the abdomen, winds in the belly, winds that shoot across the several limbs, in-breathing, out-breathing, or whatever other thing is motion, wind, is internal....] > > Han: > For Pali lovers, I write below the Pali names of the internal element of motion. > 1. uddha.m-gama vaayo = winds going upwards, > 2. adho-gama vaayo = winds going downwards, > 3. kucchi-.t.tha vaayo = winds in the abdomen, > 4. ko.t.thaasa vaayo = winds in the belly (intestines?), > 5. anga-manga-anusaarii vaayo = winds that shoot across the several limbs, > 6. assaasa-passaasa vaayo = in-breathing, out-breathing. > pt: I was wondering if there is any literature in Theravada that has more detailed explanations about different kinds of winds? I recall the Buddha sometimes commenting in the suttas that his winds got disturbed by certain practices, but never in much detail. Nina quoted Visuddhimagga Chapter XI, 37 (post 98328), and so far, paragraphs 82, 92, 93 from the same chapter also seem related. But it's all a little cryptic. From my very limited acquaintance with Vajrayana, it seems they have very detailed expositions on different types of winds and channels within the body and how to use them for diagnostics or aid. But, I was hoping someone knows of something similar in Theravada? Also, on a partially related issue, I've heard that Ayurveda (or at least the best parts of it) originated from the teachings of Jivaka - the Buddha's doctor. Is this view supported in Theravada? Thanks. Best wishes pt #99921 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:10 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (22) ptaus1 Dear Nina, Regarding the first part of the first sentence in the following: > Physical Phenomena (22) > Chapter 2. The Eight Inseparable Ruupas (continuation) > Colours are different because of different conditions [Note 1], but no > matter what colour appears we should remember that what is experienced > through the eye-door is the ruupa which is visible, visible object. > [Note 1] See also Dhammasanganii #617. > pt: As far as I understand the first part of the first sentence, it means that there are certain conditions for experiencing the colour blue, and then there are different conditions for experiencing the colour red for example, which cannot be the same as for the color blue. If that's the correct understanding of the first sentence, then could you please say a bit more about what would be the different conditions for different colours? I guess the conditions for experiencing any colour would be the other 7 inseparable rupas, while experiencing itself would be conditioned by a colour, eye-sense and eye-consciousness. However, I'm not sure what would be the conditions for experiencing different colours, i.e. red, instead of blue, or yellow, etc, if that is what you meant by the first sentence. I checked paragraph 617 in Dhammasangani that's mentioned in note 1, but it only seems to number different colours and doesn't seem to define what are the conditions for different colours, as far as I understand. I'll retype here that paragraph from online version of Dhammasangani, edited by Rhys Davids in 1900, page 183: "[617] What is that form which is the sphere of [visible] form? The form which, derived from the great principles, is visible under the appearance of colour and produces impact – is blue, yellow, red, white, black, crimson, bronze, green-coloured, of the hue of the mango-bud; is long, short, big, little, circular, oval, square, hexagonal, octagonal, hekkaidecagonal; low, high, shady, glowing, light, dim, dull, frosty, smoky, dusty; like in colour to the disc of moon, sun, stars, a mirror, a gem, a shell, a pearl, a cat's eye, gold or silver; or whatever other form there is which, derived from the four Great Phenomena, is visible and productive of impact, one has seen, sees, will, or may see with the eye that is invisible and reacting – this which is visible form, this which is the sphere of visible form, the constituent element of visible form – this is that from which is the sphere of visible form." There are 15 footnotes to this paragraph, but they are mostly concerned with defining the colours and shapes as far as I can understand. Best wishes, pt #99922 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Still Misunderstood Vanapattha Suttam: Re: More on Seclusion in Jungle sarahprocter... Dear Han, Thanks for adding your further helpful comments. It's a pleasure to exchange our views on this. --- On Sat, 8/8/09, han tun wrote: >Coming back to the topic, I think the suitability of the abode is essential for mental development. In Visuddhimagga, for example, in chapter IV, paragraphs 2 to 18, we read the Eighteen Faults of a Monastery, which are not favourable and one should not live there. In the same chapter, in paragraph 36, the unsuitability of the abode is mentioned. ... S: Do you not think these references to the 18 Faults of a monastery etc are referring to the attainment of jhana rather than to the development of the Noble Eightfold Path? ... >On the other hand, even in the suitable abode, if the bhikkhu does not walk the Noble Eightfold Path correctly, there may not be any progress. It may be like kaaya-viveka and citta-viveka. Even if there is kaaya-viveka, if there is no citta-viveka, although physically he may be alone, he might have a companion next to him in the form of (Ta.nhaadutiyo puriso). That's why I said I tend to agree with you that there was not much use in seclusion in the forest without the development of sati-sampaja~ n~naa. ... S: Yes, we agree with the conclusion to this. I liked the way Ken O put it: "Detachment is not going to the wilderness alone or seating in the forest contemplating the world. As long as the three aksuala roots are not eradicated, no matter where you run or how you want to be alone, it will haunt you. "Instead we should brace ourselves, understanding our realities of cittas, cetasikas and how they condition each other. When we face attachment as it arises, understanding it as anicca, dukkha and anatta in the present moment, this is developing understand to achieve detachment. Again understanding attachment is developing detachment." ... S: You may not fully agree:-) .... >One will have to balance between the suitability of the abode and one's own efforts. You do not have to agree with me:>) ... S: :>) I tend to think that when right understanding arises, it takes care of the balancing... Metta Sarah ======= #99923 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] English translation of Complete Tipitaka sarahprocter... Dear Sac(?), Welcome to DSG! --- On Mon, 10/8/09, sac9090 wrote: >Hi. Does anyone know where I can get a complete MODERN English translation of the COMPLETE Tipitaka whether online or hard copies? ... S: You won't get the COMPLETE Tipitaka in one place. Sutta Pitaka I recommend B.Bodhi's hard copy translations or co-translations of Majjhima Nikaya and Samyutta Nikaya. Also Walshe's translation of Digha Nikaya. Probably all available (on line order) from Pariyatti or Amazon. B.Bodhi has a nice translation of a collection from Anguttara Nikaya and is in the process of translating the entire AN. Meanwhile, the other entire translation is available from Pali Text Society in UK. The PTS also has many translations from the Khuddaka Nikaya. Access to Insight on line has translations of large numbers of suttas, but the quality of the translations are not the best imho. Vinaya Pitaka For a complete set, you probably have to either purchase these from the Pali Text Society or download many that are now available on line. It's translated by I.B.Horner. Abhidhamma Pitaka None that I know of is on-line. Many translations are available from the Pali Text Society. If you're ordering several texts, it's worthwile becoming a member to get the discount and a free book of your choice each year. They also have some useful commentaries to these texts. If you want to know about the quality of translation of particular texts and alternatives, ask again. This is just a rough overview. Others may have further comments. If you have time, please introduce yourself to us here! Metta Sarah ======== #99924 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (22) nilovg Dear pt, Op 10-aug-2009, om 9:10 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > quote N: Colours are different because of different conditions > [Note 1], but no > > matter what colour appears we should remember that what is > experienced > > through the eye-door is the ruupa which is visible, visible object. > ------- > > pt: > > As far as I understand the first part of the first sentence, it > means that there are certain conditions for experiencing the colour > blue, and then there are different conditions for experiencing the > colour red for example, which cannot be the same as for the color > blue. If that's the correct understanding of the first sentence, > then could you please say a bit more about what would be the > different conditions for different colours? > > I guess the conditions for experiencing any colour would be the > other 7 inseparable rupas, while experiencing itself would be > conditioned by a colour, eye-sense and eye-consciousness. However, > I'm not sure what would be the conditions for experiencing > different colours, i.e. red, instead of blue, or yellow, etc, if > that is what you meant by the first sentence. -------- N: Colours are different because, as you also suggest, the elements accompanying colour are of different compositions. For example the element of heat may be more intense or less intense. But do we need to find out? The aim is seeing colour as just a conditioned dhamma, a rupa. -------- > > pt: I checked paragraph 617 in Dhammasangani that's mentioned in > note 1, but it only seems to number different colours and doesn't > seem to define what are the conditions for different colours, as > far as I understand. I'll retype here that paragraph from online > version of Dhammasangani, edited by Rhys Davids in 1900, page 183: > > "[617] What is that form which is the sphere of [visible] form? > The form which, derived from the great principles, is visible under > the appearance of colour and produces impact – is blue, yellow, > red, white, black, crimson, bronze, ..... ------ N: These are just examples of visible object which is of much variety. But it is just all that appears through the eyesense. This should lead to detachment, detachment from taking it for something very important. We all may be inclined to wanting to know details that are not helpful to reach the goal. I too have to remind myself of the "Lesser Discourse to Maalu"nkyaa". He wanted to know about many kinds of speculative views that do not lead to the goal, such as whether the world is eternal or not, whether the Tathaagata is after dying, is not, both is and is not, neither is nor is not. The Buddha spoke to him by way of a simile. A man was pierced by a poisoned arrow. He did not want the arrow to be taken out unless he knew all the details of the person who shot him, of what clan he was, of the kind of bow, of the kind of shaft. But he would die without knowing any of these things. The Buddha said:"Wherefore, Maalu"nkiyaaputta, understand as not explained what has not been explained." The Buddha did not explain about what is not connected with the goal, not fundamental to the brahma-faring. He said that he did explain the four noble Truths: dukkha, the arising of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha and the practice leading to the cessation of dukkha. We read: ****** Nina. #99925 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam sarahprocter... Hi Suan & all, --- On Fri, 7/8/09, abhidhammika wrote: >Let us have a look at the following excerpt from the beginning paragraph of Vanapattha Suttam. >Section 190. "….. Bhagavaa etadavoca– "vanapatthapariyaay am vo, bhikkhave, desessaami, tam su.naatha, saadhukam manasikarotha, bhaasissaamii" ti. >"The Bhagavaa said this: `Monks, I will make you see forest living as the cause. Listen to it, make an object in your mind well, I will tell'." >The above is as literal a translation as possible. The term `pariyaaya' can mean `kara.na, a cause' or `desanaa, an instruction' . ... S: I would prefer to see something like "Monks, I will give an exposition (or instruction) on forest living." Muulapariyaaya Sutta - "The Exposition on the Root of All Things/All Dhammaa" >The Buddha was making the monks see that their living arrangements do matter as the optimizing causes and conditions for their samatha and vipassanaa to progress all the way as intended. ... S: When the Buddha gives the four conditions for attaining enlightenment as a)association with the right friend, b)listening to the Dhamma, c)wise attention and d) practice of dhamma in accordance dhammaa, he didn't add a fifth: "selecting the right forest". >Sarah also wrote: >"There is no Right Concentration without the development of Right Understanding. While we have an idea of selecting forests rather than understanding realities at this moment, there will never be any development of Right Concentration of the Eightfold Path. Of that, I have no doubt." >Suan: In the above paragraph, you wrote `There is no Right Concentration without the development of Right Understanding. ' >What did you mean by that? You even stressed it with you having no doubt of that! >Do you realise that you went against Abhidhamma by the above obstinate assertion? ... S: We're discussing the factors of the Eightfold Path. I'll look forward to your reference in the Abhidhamma which asserts that there can be Right Concentration of the Eightfold Path without Right Understanding. Which factor is given as the 'foremost' factor like the dawn? For any bhaavanaa to occur, any development at all of Right Concentration, whether it be samatha or vipassanaa, Right Understanding is essential. I'll be interested to see your references to the contrary, Suan. Metta Sarah ====== #99926 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) nilovg Dear pt, Op 10-aug-2009, om 9:00 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > I was wondering if there is any literature in Theravada that has > more detailed explanations about different kinds of winds? I recall > the Buddha sometimes commenting in the suttas that his winds got > disturbed by certain practices, but never in much detail. Nina > quoted Visuddhimagga Chapter XI, 37 (post 98328), and so far, > paragraphs 82, 92, 93 from the same chapter also seem related. But > it's all a little cryptic. From my very limited acquaintance with > Vajrayana, it seems they have very detailed expositions on > different types of winds and channels within the body and how to > use them for diagnostics or aid. But, I was hoping someone knows of > something similar in Theravada? > > Also, on a partially related issue, I've heard that Ayurveda (or at > least the best parts of it) originated from the teachings of Jivaka > - the Buddha's doctor. Is this view supported in Theravada? ------ N: Ayurveda was widely known. When the elements are disturbed, when they are out of balance, you are sick. For example, when there is too much wind in the belly. This can remind us that there is not 'my body', only different rupa elements. Again, we have to remember what leads to the goal and what not. ------ Nina. #99927 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam sarahprocter... Hi Suan & all, And for the Abhidhamma, on the ultimate meaning of seclusion as recently quoted by Scott: ***** >Sammohavinodanii (Vol II, pp. 33-34): "1544. ...Vivekanissita.m ('dependent on seclusion') = viveke nissita.m. Seclusion is secludedness; it is fivefold, namely seclusion through substitution of opposites (tada.ngaviveka), through suppression (vikkhambhana), cutting off (samuccheda), tranquillisation (pa.tipassadhi) and renunciation (nissara.na). "1545. Herein, seclusion through substitution of opposites is insight; seclusion through suppression is the eight attainments; seclusion through cutting off is the path; seclusion through tranquillisation is fruition; seclusion through renunciation is nibbaana, which has renounced all signs. This is the meaning to be understood.< ***** No seclusion here without Right Understanding... Metta Sarah ====== #99928 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Sweden sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, I'm glad to see you back. Nina and I missed you! --- On Fri, 7/8/09, szmicio wrote: >L: The Sweden is very beautiful country. I was constantly attached to the beautiful sights. When the citta is attached than the mind is in its own imagine word. That is so different that awarness that is not forgetful of realities. But of course each akusala dhamma can be an object, anytime, anywhere. Totaly suprising, like dead or something else. ... S: Yes, we never know what will be the object of awareness - any reality at all. This is how the path develops, when it's not 'limited' to particular objects. That's such a hindrance. ... >I used to spend my time on reading the majhima nikaya and learned a lot. I read about renunciation that even being on renunciation we can be not renounced. I read the Buddha saying that he taught this renunciation because of 2 reasons: our welfare and the compasion to humans. but I found myself more like the guy who is on renunciation and is not renounced. ... S: Yes, I understand. We can be a beautiful location, in an ideal forest or mountain top or walking on a lovely beach, but as Han said, our partner tanha follows us around. There's no escape except through the development of right understanding and detachment. ... >Nothing wrong at all. That is citta that is agitated, so it' can take many life and citta will purify on its own. ... S: Yes, very naturally. ... >...If I didnt consider Dhamma in detailed way i surely will chase pleasant vedanas and try to do something, to achive something. But now I live this live , and there is seeing and hearing and then different processes. ... S: yes, and trying to do something (in order to develop awareness) is such a big hindrance... ... >Enjoy the teachin on non-self, and seeing how this different thinkings arise and fall away constantly, not mine. Nothing happy in it. But still attachment has a chance to arise again and again. ... S: Yes, I rejoice every day in the teaching of anatta. Actually, I always feel happy when I reflect on it - just conditioned dhammaa all day, nothing to be done by any atta. Just relax and let right understanding develop naturally! Very simple, but very subtle.... ... > S: How could there be any detachment without any understanding? > ... >L: It can be. Like the moments of giving the food. ... S: True - there can be moments of detachment from clinging when there is generosity. But such generosity can only grow with the development of understanding which appreciates its value. ... > >L:There is so much attachment. What can be done with this? > ... > S: Can anything be "done" with it? >L: Just a dream. ... S: You know the answers:-) We live in our dreams all day... Metta Sarah ======== #99929 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" sarahprocter... Hi Connie, --- On Fri, 7/8/09, connie wrote: >>S: Yes, I'm sure this Intermediate State adherence all comes down to a "Self-Survival" of some kind, which I'm sure is your point too. >c: Ye olde cosmic self, yes - esp. that super control that bardo being is said to have over where the next little self finds itself in the next life, whether this 'oversoul' actually picks out the plane and all itself or just stands before Yama's court... just stories I've heard. ... S: Yes, I'm sure we've all heard a few of them... Metta Sarah p.s Getting close to the Big 100,000 party..... Thanks again (in public) for all your wonderful help with backing-up the archives... ========= #99930 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (28-29), sutta 28 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 28: Walshe DN 33.1.11(28) 'Four ways of answering questions: (a) to be answered directly (eka'msa-vyaakara.niyo pa~nho), (b) requiring an explanation (vibhajja-v. p.), (c) requiring a counter-question (pa.tipucchaa-v. p.), (d) to be set aside (.thaapaniiyo pa~nha). [iii 230] (312. < It gives as an example the question whether the eye is impermanent, which should be answered with: ‘Yes, it is.’ 2: < the question to be answered with an analysis.> When asked whether , one should answer with an analysis: 3: the question to be answered with a counter-question: 4: The question to be set aside. ----------------------------------------------------------- N: This teaches us to consider well the questions we ask during Dhamma discussions. When we ask speculative questions that do not lead to the goal, detachment from the idea of self, we will miss entirely what is taught by the Buddha in the Tipi.taka. Our questions should have as the aim to gain more understanding of the reality appearing now, so that eventually the four noble Truths will be penetrated. ------------- Nina. #99931 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:39 pm Subject: Re: Sarah Still Misunderstood Vanapattha Suttam: Re: More on Seclusion in Jungle hantun1 Dear Sarah, Sarah: Do you not think these references to the 18 Faults of a monastery etc are referring to the attainment of jhana rather than to the development of the Noble Eightfold Path? Han: My understanding of suitability (sappaaya) is that it must be suitable for whatever purpose the bhikkhu has in mind. If he is developing samatha, the abode must be suitable for the development of samatha. If he is developing vipassanaa the abode must be suitable for the development of vipassanaa. If he is for the development of the Noble Eightfold Path, the abode must be suitable for the development of the Noble Eightfold Path. My understanding of suitability (sappaaya) is not just for the abode. I believe, most strongly, in the suitability of seven areas as mentioned in Vism IV, 35. (1) abode = aavaasa sappaaya (2) resort = gocara sappaaya (3) speech = bhassa sappaaya (4) person = puggala sappaaya (5) food = bhojana sappaaya (6) climate = utu sappaaya (7) posture = iriyaapatha sappaaya My belief in these seven sappaaya is non-negotiable. ------------------------------ Sarah: You may not fully agree:-) Han: Whether I agree or not agree is not important. It is your belief that counts. Like me, when you believe in something it may be non-negotiable for you. Besides, I never say I do not agree to anyone even if I do not agree:>) -------------------------------- Sarah: :>) I tend to think that when right understanding arises, it takes care of the balancing... Han: Fine! You can wait for the right understanding to arise. For me, I will go for balancing, even if I may fall down while balancing:>) Respectfully, Han #99932 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:11 pm Subject: Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, (and Suan), Regarding: Suan: "Section 190. '... Bhagavaa etadavocaâ€" 'vanapatthapariyaay am vo, bhikkhave, desessaami, tam su.naatha, saadhukam manasikarotha, bhaasissaamii' ti. "The Bhagavaa said this: 'Monks, I will make you see forest living as the cause. Listen to it, make an object in your mind well, I will tell'." The above is as literal a translation as possible. The term 'pariyaaya' can mean 'kara.na', a cause or 'desanaa,' an instruction'." Sarah: "I would prefer to see something like 'Monks, I will give an exposition (or instruction) on forest living.'" Scott: The problem in the translation offered by Suan, as I see it, is the spin which makes the suggestion that 'forest living' is the *only* 'cause' or *the best* for mindfulness, concentration, and the unattained supreme security from bondage, rather than being one of a list of causes. A jungle thicket can be condition for the requisite arising as much as it can be condition for its non-arising. In the sutta, taking the entire sutta into consideration and not isolating one aspect out for polemical purposes, we have not only jungle thickets but certain villages, certain towns, certain cities, and certain persons, which are shown to have been condition for either the natural arising or non-arising of mindfulness and concentration and 'the unattained supreme security from bondage.' With no progress being the result, then leaving is the course of action - whether we have a forest, or a village, or a town, or a city, or a person serving as condition. In a sense it is not unreasonable to focus on conditions, but the thing about conditions is that they either condition the arising or the non-arising of any particular state or set of dhammas. And they do this naturally. And it takes sati and pa~n~naa to recognize and know a situation as it is naturally (the establishment or non-establishment of kusala as described in the sutta) - whether a given location is condition for kusala or not. Therefore, in this matter, I side with you and consider Suan's arguments to fall short, failing as a result of wanting to unduly put one condition - jungle thickets - in an elevated or special position over the other mentioned conditions. Sincerely, Scott. #99933 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 1, no 4. ashkenn2k Dear Nina Patience even if develop without understanding has yet eradicate aversion and moha. there is this Queen who has patience but snap one day. So if one really need to learn patience, must understand it. Losing of the luggage, one lose patience because one is attached to it, to the items inside or to the aversion of the inconveniences. If one look at it with understanding, understanding it as anatta, anicca and dukkha, then understand that such items do not belong to oneself. Its easy for me to say we should be patient, even at that moment if I was in the that situation, I believe at that time, I may not be patient either. But understanding is a gradual process, is the key to patience. Cheers Ken O > #99934 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam ashkenn2k Dear Scott and Sarah and Suan Suan did mention a good point in the discourse, it is about different places of cultivating. However, we should look at it closely, it is about monks and not lay persons. So depending on the context one is refering to, then it is applicable to that context. IMHO, this sutta means to be an advisory to the monks rather to lay persons because it is on monk dependence. Now on the Right Understanding comes first then Right Concentration matter. Also depending how we see it. If we look at it lokkuttaracitta, we could say they come together, in fact all eight together. If we speak strictly on what to develop first then IMHO, it is understanding then concentration. I am basing on Right view as the forerunner MN117. The Great Forty (BB) Cheers Ken O #99935 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam scottduncan2 Dear Ken O., Regarding: K: "Suan did mention a good point in the discourse, it is about different places of cultivating..." Scott: Agreed, when the point is kept in context. K: "...However, we should look at it closely, it is about monks and not lay persons. So depending on the context one is refering to, then it is applicable to that context. IMHO, this sutta means to be an advisory to the monks rather to lay persons because it is on monk dependence..." Scott: Agreed. K: "...Now on the Right Understanding comes first then Right Concentration matter. Also depending how we see it. If we look at it lokkuttaracitta, we could say they come together, in fact all eight together. If we speak strictly on what to develop first then IMHO, it is understanding then concentration. I am basing on Right view as the forerunner MN117. The Great Forty (BB)" Scott: Agreed, Ken. Sincerely, Scott. #99936 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:18 pm Subject: Sarah Contradicting Abhidhamma Again abhidhammika Hello Sarah How are you? You wrote: " I tend to think that when right understanding arises, it takes care of the balancing..." Do you realise that your above statement contradicted Abhidhamma? It should not be any harm for you to refresh your understanding of abhidhamma from time to time. As you seemed to be a member of Pali Text Society, you may have owned a copy of Compendium of Philosophy. And, there are also Buddhist websites such as Buddhanet with an online copy of an English translation Of Abhidhammatthasangaha. Of course, Nina can also help you out with your present problems. Please do not wait for me for corrections. I have been busy with intensive formal meditation and my own projects of Pali textual studies. As soon as I have spare time, I will answer your questions in your reply to my post: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #99937 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:13 pm Subject: Re: Sarah Contradicting Abhidhamma Again scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, (and Suan), Regarding: Sarah: " I tend to think that when right understanding arises, it takes care of the balancing..." Suan: "Do you realise that your above statement contradicted Abhidhamma?...Please do not wait for me for corrections. I have been busy with intensive formal meditation and my own projects of Pali textual studies..." Scott: AN, Book of Tens, 121 The Harbinger (PTS). "Just as, monks, the dawn is the forerunner, the harbinger of the sun's arising, even so of profitable states this the the forerunner, the harbinger, namely right view. From right view, monks, proceeds right thinking. From right thinking right speech...from right knowledge proceeds right release." Scott: Pretty clear. I'll find more. I'll leave the rest to you and Suan - he no longer returns my calls. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #99938 From: "colette" Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" ksheri3 Hi Howard, Glad that you responded to my "comment" since I have pondered for days, now, if I potentially offended you in some way which puts you "off" on my presence. I am forced to admit, though, that the response you give causes me to ponder EVEN DEEPER since I was always under the impression that you were of an ABOVE INTELLIGENCE LEVEL and would have long since found this equality, this samadhi, and would have already worked through the numerous paths that it opens up. BOYYYYYYY, if you've never found any equality within the concept of a "purgatory" to an state of consciousness called BARDO, then what, prey-tell, might happen if you attempt meditations upon such words and thoughts as those held by Muslims when using this obscure word known as "TRANSMIGRATION", or "VENERATION OF THE DEAD" (see DAY OF THE DEAD in Central America [Mexico])? Ya want to really stretch those brain muscles or mind muscles in a practice of YOGA then view the Tibetan practice of SKY BURIAL where the corpse is consumed by birds, scavengers, making the gift of the body to the preservation of the sentient life of birds, a final act of Buddhist consciousness for "others" in the process of the TRANSMIGRATION of the consciousness from one body to another body (see the Dzogchen practice of TRANSFERENCE OF CONSCIOUSNESS) and then try to view that most Christian of practices called REDEMPTION OR FORGIVENESS THEN TELLING ME WHY THEY ARE THE SAME, THAT THEY CREATE A CALMNESS, A SAMADHI, AN EQUALITY? But then you'd be outside the walls of the box that encapsulates you to give you the consciousness of security within the Theravadan community, and we all know that that practice is not allowed within the Theravadan community so I guess you could never even think of trying something so elementary. Never the less, thanx for recognizing my obvious, IMO, equality. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Colette (and Scott) - > > In a message dated 8/8/2009 3:03:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > ksheri3@... writes: > > Hi Scott and Howard, > > in the few minutes I have left I'm tryijng to catch up on this thread of > "intermediate states" since this is a Bardo consciounsess and is found in > many WEstern traditions i.e. purgatory. > ============================= > I think that's an interesting observation, Colette. I never made that > association of a bardo with purgatory. Interesting commonality. :-) > #99939 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 8/10/2009 3:15:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: Hi Howard, Glad that you responded to my "comment" since I have pondered for days, now, if I potentially offended you in some way which puts you "off" on my presence. ---------------------------------- ????? ---------------------------------- I am forced to admit, though, that the response you give causes me to ponder EVEN DEEPER since I was always under the impression that you were of an ABOVE INTELLIGENCE LEVEL and would have long since found this equality, this samadhi, and would have already worked through the numerous paths that it opens up. ------------------------------------ Huh? This samadhi? -------------------------------------- BOYYYYYYY, if you've never found any equality within the concept of a "purgatory" to an state of consciousness called BARDO, -------------------------------------- It just didn't occur to me. I think little about bardos and less about purgatory. -------------------------------------- then what, prey-tell, might happen if you attempt meditations upon such words and thoughts as those held by Muslims when using this obscure word known as "TRANSMIGRATION", or "VENERATION OF THE DEAD" (see DAY OF THE DEAD in Central America [Mexico])? --------------------------------------- I don't think about this at all. :-) --------------------------------------- Ya want to really stretch those brain muscles or mind muscles in a practice of YOGA then view the Tibetan practice of SKY BURIAL where the corpse is consumed by birds, scavengers, making the gift of the body to the preservation of the sentient life of birds, a final act of Buddhist consciousness for "others" in the process of the TRANSMIGRATION of the consciousness from one body to another body (see the Dzogchen practice of TRANSFERENCE OF CONSCIOUSNESS) and then try to view that most Christian of practices called REDEMPTION OR FORGIVENESS THEN TELLING ME WHY THEY ARE THE SAME, THAT THEY CREATE A CALMNESS, A SAMADHI, AN EQUALITY? But then you'd be outside the walls of the box that encapsulates you to give you the consciousness of security within the Theravadan community, and we all know that that practice is not allowed within the Theravadan community so I guess you could never even think of trying something so elementary. Never the less, thanx for recognizing my obvious, IMO, equality. ---------------------------------------- I thought it was an interesting observation on your part. :-) --------------------------------------- toodles, colette ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99940 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:35 pm Subject: Immutable Signless Sameness! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Real & Absolute, yet not to be Seen, Heard or Sensed! The Buddha once said about the signless Nibbana: There is that, which is unborn, uncreated, unformed & unconstructed! If, Bhikkhus, there was not this unborn, uncreated, unformed and unconstructed, no escape from what is born, created, formed & constructed could ever be realized... But since there indeed exists that, which is utterly unborn, uncreated, unformed and unconstructed, the escape from this born, created, formed & constructed state can therefore indeed be realized, explained and made known right here and now! An unconditioned, unborn, and uncreated ultimate Absolute: That which is born, that which has become into being, that which is conditioned, that which is dependent, that which is co-arisen, that which is created, that which is unstable, unsafe & prone to decay, that which is the bridge between birth and death, this seat of disease, with nutriment & birth as its cause, will all perish...! It is not worth clinging to or rejoice in... The escape from this, is calm, beyond the sphere of logic, being that which is safe and stable, that which is unborn, that which is not dependent, but sorrow-free, and stainless, this realm is the final ceasing of all states involving any pain, this stilling of all construction, is absolute Bliss, and ultimate Peace... Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 3 The Signless Sameness of Nibbana: There is that state, where there is neither earth, water, fire nor any air, where there is neither trace of solidity, nor fluidity, nor heat, nor motion, where there is neither infinity of space, nor of consciousness, nor nothingness, where even no subtle state of neither-perception-nor-non-perception remains, where there is neither any ‘here’, nor any ‘there’ of this or any other world, where there is neither any sun, nor moon, nor planet, nor any universe at all, There, Bhikkhus, one cannot designate neither any coming, nor any going, nor any remaining, nor duration, nor any beginning, & much less any ending... Neither is there any activity, nor any movement, nor any fixed stability, nor any ground, basis or source for any conditioning medium whatsoever... This unity, this singularity, this signless sameness is the End of Suffering! Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 1 Non-spatial, Non-Temporal, Invariable and Non-Reactive is Nibbana: Where neither solidity, fluidity, heat nor motion find any footing, there no sun, moon nor star ever shines. There is neither any light yet nor is there any darkness. When the Noble, through stilling of all construction, through quieting of all mental formation, directly experiences this, then is he freed from both form & formlessness, then is he released from both pleasure & pain and gone all beyond… Udana – Inspiration: I – 10 Comments: There are 2 kinds of Consciousness: 1: Mundane (Of this world) and 2: Supramundane (Above and beyond this world, transcendent): 1: Sense Consciousness, that always has an object (a form, sound, smell, taste, touch, or an idea) This is a discrete moment of awareness, that arise & cease momentarily with its object: Like this: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2: Signless Consciousness (animitta viññana), which is continuous and functions as that which ‘experiences’ the bliss of Nibbana as an unbroken signless sameness: Like this: ___________________ Continuous, same, still, unbroken, imperturbable Bliss! It has no (sensed or felt) object, except or apart from that stilled free peace in itself… The Buddha Gotama entering Nibbana 80 years old ~ 483 BC. <....> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, <...> #99941 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (26-27), sutta 26 and commentary. sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Azita, Nina, Connie & all, --- On Wed, 5/8/09, Scott wrote: >>S: "I was glad to see this reference to hiri and ottappa because KS sometimes refers to hiri and ottappa as powers as mentioned in the commentaries and I hadn't been able to find it before. Because of the strength of the kusala dhammas, the hiri and ottappa are powers, there is a 'firm' shrinking away from akusala, 'seeing harm in the slightest fault' - not the 'shrinking away' with dosa that Azita and I were discussing:- )." >Scott: 'Conscious experience' is not to be trusted, is what this makes me think about. The dosa which leads to the feeling of 'shrinking away' is disguised by the time we are thinking about it. This is, I think, due to it's rapidity. By then, we can think of ourselves as pious and satisfied. .... Sarah: And what is the "pious and satisfied" if not more maana? On the dosa, shrinking away and thinking, I liked this quote from Nina's series which is just the point KS always reminds us about: "When we think about the “storyâ€, about the circumstances of dosa we do not come to know more about the reality of dosa. We have accumulations to think a great deal. When there is thinking it can be realized as just nÃ¥ma, not self." Sarah: It's so easy to justify the dosa in a myriad of ways. We can justify our unfriendliness, our 'shrinking away', our sharp speech, our lack of patience, but whilst 'lost in the story' of the circumstances, there's no understanding of dosa as just a nama or thinking as just a nama. .... >Scott: The fact is, it's better to realize that a turning away due to dosa is already akusala, and just leads to more. Thoughts about being a 'bad person' or a 'good person' are of no use, while common enough. ... Sarah: I agree - either way it's more clinging to oneself. ... >Scott: I'd imagine that hiri and ottappa are equally rapid but, being kusala, would 'feel' totally different to sati - were it to be developed enough. I'd imagine that when these arise the 'turning away' is immediate and, as noted when these are at the strength of powers, there is no akusala - it happens naturally - there can be no such dhammaa when these are functioning as powers. They simply don't arise. >So I imagine, at any rate... .... Sarah: :-) Imagine! Yes, not a case of 'doing' or 'balancing', but of developing more understanding of any dhammaa, so that hiri, ottappa and the other sobhana cetasikas become more and more refined to perform their functions as powers - 'shrinking' in a wholesome way from all that is akusala. Slowly, gradually....without clinging to outcomes... One moment at a time... Metta Sarah ======= #99942 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:09 am Subject: "All puthujjanas are mad" christine_fo... Hello all, I vaguely recall a thread where the source of the quote "All puthujjanas are mad" was given. Anyone able to help? metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #99943 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:15 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (22) ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for you reply. I'd like to ask one more thing about that dhammasangani paragraph (in full at the end of the post): after it lists the various colours, then it lists various shapes, as well as intensities, as if to suggest that shape and intensity are also rupas, aside from colour. However, there's a note at that point which says: "Note 9: See my Introduction, on `long,' short, as only indirectly objects of sight. `The foregoing seven visibles are set forth without reference to any base (vatthu); the following according to common usage' (ibid.)." The relevant section from the introduction, page lxii: "On this point it is worth while pointing out an interesting flash of psychological discrimination in the Commentary. I will be noticed, in the various kinds of rupayatanam enumerated in paragraph 617 (p.183, n.9), that, after pure visual sensations have benn instanced, different magnitudes and shapes are added, such as `long, short,' etc. On these Buddhaghosa remarks: `Here, inasmuch as we are able to tell "long," "short," etc., by touch, while we cannot so discern "blue," etc., therefore "long," "short" and the rest are not visual forms except inferentially (literally, not visual forms without explanation). A, B, placed in such relation to C, D, is only customary usage spoken of as something seen'(Asl 316). [note 1]" "Note 1: The symbols are my own adapatation, not a literal rendering. In the account of the `external senses' or Indriyas given in the (later) sankhya text-books, Professor Garbe points out that the objects of sight are limited to colour (rupa), exclusive of form (Garbe, `Die Sankhya Philosophie,' p.258)." pt: So, then the correct understanding would be that only colour itself is a rupa and object of the sense-door process of cittas, while shape and intensity of a visual object are concepts employed in the subsequent mind-door processes of cittas? Also, what is "Sankhya" that's referenced in the note 1, is that an early abhidhamma sect or something like that? Thanks. Best wishes pt Dhammasangani: "[617] What is that form which is the sphere of [visible] form? The form which, derived from the great principles, is visible under the appearance of colour and produces impact – is blue, yellow, red, white, black, crimson, bronze, green-coloured, of the hue of the mango-bud; is long, short,[note 9] big, little, circular, oval, square, hexagonal, octagonal, hekkaidecagonal; low, high, shady, glowing, light, dim, dull, frosty, smoky, dusty; like in colour to the disc of moon, sun, stars, a mirror, a gem, a shell, a pearl, a cat's eye, gold or silver; or whatever other form there is which, derived from the four Great Phenomena, is visible and productive of impact, one has seen, sees, will, or may see with the eye that is invisible and reacting – this which is visible form, this which is the sphere of visible form, the constituent element of visible form – this is that from which is the sphere of visible form." #99944 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:52 am Subject: Re: English translation of Complete Tipitaka ptaus1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sac9090" wrote: > > Hi. Does anyone know where I can get a complete MODERN English translation of the COMPLETE Tipitaka whether online or hard copies? > Hi, Sarah already gave you the most important info, I'll just supply the links: Books: PTS - almost the whole Tipitaka in English: http://www.palitext.com/ Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations are published by Wisdom Publications: http://www.wisdompubs.org/ Online: Access to insight: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/index.html Two websites that have some online suttas that ATI doesn't: http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/suttanta.htm http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/ Abhidhamma translations - these are 100 years old, and scanned, but that's the only thing online so far: http://openlibrary.org/search?q=abhidhamma&ftokens=mhsncqbxgkup Two probably most essential later works: Visuddhimagga - scanned, on Chew's blog: http://thepathofpurification.blogspot.com/ A comprehensive manual of abhidhamma on google books: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxopJgv85y4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=bhikkhu+\ bodhi&lr=&as_brr=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false Best wishes pt #99945 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. sarahprocter... Dear Chew,(Nina, Jon, Sukin & all) --- On Thu, 6/8/09, Chew wrote: >C: I think I am the one who really need to apology for my long delay. >Again, I am really enjoying to study the Dhamma with you and learn from you all. .... S: All your reflections are really well considered and I appreciate your keen study of the Abhidhamma. I liked your reply to Pt (I think it was) in another thread. Perhaps you might be able to join us in Bangkok for discussions with A.Sujin sometime? ... >C: Below are the points that I would like to share with all my Dhamma friends here. Please let me know, if I am wrong. Thanks and Sadhu. Fish swims in the water. In ultimate sense, water is full of utusamut.t.haana- kalaapaa and space-element (aakaasa dhaatu). Fish still able to swim. Birds fly in the sky. There are oxygen in the air. Oxygen are utusamut.t.haana- kalaapaa + space-element (aakaasa dhaatu) in the ultimate sense. Deity stays in the tree. The tree is utusamut.t.haana- kalaapaa + space-element (aakaasa dhaatu) in the ultimate sense. It is a space for Deity to stay, but not for other beings. How about outer space, where there has no oxygen. But is there temperature? If there is temperature, that means, there are fire-elements (tejodhaatu) . If there are fire-elements, there are utusamut.t.haana- kalaapaa + space-element (aakaasa dhaatu). .... S: I think we have to stick to 'in the ultimate sense' and leave aside the scientific terms. I believe that 'in the ultimate sense' in the water, air outer space or cavities, there are not just 'concentrated' kalapas of rupas separated by pariccheda aakaasa rupa, but for the most part are 'open space'. ... >For my opinion, one cannot find a place without ruupa in human realm. One also cannot find a place with only ¡°the unconditioned aakaasa ruupa of the 'open' spaces¡±. >(Ordinary human beings wouldn't be able to walk through the desk, but not other beings.) .... S: Surely this would be because they don't have physical forms which are impeded by the hardness and kalapas of rupas? Or else, like in Maha Moggallana's case, it is by psychic powers? .... >When one is breathing, air enters through nostril. It does not mean that there are no air in the nostril before one breath-in. The air is also utusamut.t.haana- kalaapaa + space-element (aakaasa dhaatu) in the ultimate sense. It does not mean that if take away the utusamut.t.haana- kalaapaa + space-element (aakaasa dhaatu), the remaining are ¡°the unconditioned aakaasa ruupa of the 'open' spaces¡±. The empty cup can be filled-up with water. The space in the empty cup, is ¡°space (vivara)¡±. It is an idea or concept in conventional sense. Air is still in the empty cup. The air is utusamut.t.haana- kalaapaa + space-element (aakaasa dhaatu) in the ultimate sense. ... S: Chew, I'm not sure about this. I'd like to hear what Nina, Jon, Sukin or others have to say on this. ... >One cannot find an unconditioned dhamma in the sa.msaara. Nibbaana is only the object of the lokuttaracitta. Even the lokuttaracitta itselves are also conditioned dhamma, they arise and cease. In the ultimate sense, concept does not exist. So, in the ultimate sense, Nibbaana is the only unconditioned dhamma. And the remaining are only conditioned dhamma, which are citta, cetasika, and ruupa. .... S: I would have said the same a while back and Nina was suggesting the same when we were in Bkk, but I think we have to consider the two manifestations of aakaasa ruupa more carefully. Again, you've made good points, Chew and we may have to agree to disagree on this one for the time being. I hope Jon and Sukin will join in this thread. Metta Sarah ======== #99946 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. sarahprocter... Dear Chew, --- On Tue, 11/8/09, sarah abbott wrote: >...One also cannot find a place with only "the unconditioned aakaasa ruupa of the 'open' spaces"\ ... S: "The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter. Its function is to indicate the boundaries of matter. It is manifested as the confines of matter; or its manifestation consists in being untouched (by the 4 great elements), and in holes and apertures. Its proximate cause is the matter delimited. It is on account of the space element that one can say of material things delimited that 'this is above. below, around that' " (Vis.M. XIV, 63).\ ... S: When we read about the second manifestation of aakaasa ruupa as being "untouched (by the 4 great elements)" as in holes and apertures, leading one to be able to say 'this is above. below, around that' etc, how do you undertstand the aakaasa ruupa which is "untouched"? Metta Sarah ======== #99947 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Actually, I thought your thoughts were quite interesting:) --- On Thu, 6/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: >1) Except for simple curiosity and love of the dramatic, I don't see why anyone should care very much about this matter, for it has no obvious bearing on awakening and the cessation of dukkha. .... S: I tend to agree with you - I'm not very interested in it either, but when I hear people try to justify why there must be an "intermediate state", it always seems to end up as a justification for 'something', 'some being' as existing in an ultimate sense... ... >2) As one possibility, might not what is referred to as an intermediary state be a non-universal matter but, instead, an instance of a more or less short-lived existence as a peta for certain beings? ... S: However short-lived an existence might be, even if but for a few cittas, then it is in one of the realms delineated, such as the peta realm. Just cittas, no matter the desires involved. What you describe as the 'desperately desirous' and so on can all be found included in the descriptions of the peta realms. Anyway, just our thinking about it all and what's more important is the awareness of the thinking now, the kindness and courtesy to those around us and the development of understanding of the realities which make up our lives - all of which I think we agree on:-) Metta Sarah ========= #99948 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "All puthujjanas are mad" sarahprocter... Hi Chris, --- On Tue, 11/8/09, Christine Forsyth wrote: >I vaguely recall a thread where the source of the quote "All puthujjanas are mad" was given. .... S: From #20895, a couple of leads: --- phamdluan2000 wrote: >> The word << mad >> is the translation > of the Sanskrit word Viparyasa > (Pali: Vipallasa) which means > perversions, perverted views, error. > > The worldling is considered << mad >> > because he/she holds perverted views. > > There are 4 main perverted views: .... >Sarah: In the comy to the Mulapariyaaya Sutta with regard to the same perversions of view we read: "..Or, without releasing such a segment of earth, he perceives it as a being (satta) or as belonging to a being. Why does he perceive it in this way? This should not be asked, for the worldling is like a madman. he seizes upon anything he can in whatever way he can. or else, the reason is that he has no regard for the ariyans, etc; or, as the Exalted One will say later on, "because it has not been fully understood by him". .... Metta, Sarah ====== #99949 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:53 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 2, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 2. Understanding the Present Moment. In Egypt and Turkey we saw golden treasures, jewelry and objects decorated with glittering precious stones, which have been collected in olden times and are unique in the world. While we were visiting musea and palaces we were absorbed in the details of all those things. Most of the time clinging arises after seeing, and when we are absorbed in the details of what we see our clinging becomes more obvious. The cetasika saññå, remembrance or perception, remembers what is seen and cittas think of it for a long time. Whenever we do not apply ourselves to dåna, síla or mental development, we act, speak and think with akusala citta. Even when we believe that our thinking is harmless the citta is likely to be akusala citta. We often think with akusala citta about people. Acharn said: “Where is that being? It is only a story in your mind. Previous experiences condition the thought of a being. Gradually we can come to understand what is meant by “being alone” with visible object at the moment of seeing, because there is nobody in the visible object. One can be alone at the moment of hearing sound, because there is no idea of anyone at that moment.” When awareness arises of the visible object which appears, one is alone, there is no person there. At that moment one does not cling to an image or to details. Visible object falls away and nothing is left; only the memory remains. Everything lasts just for a moment and in the next life everything is forgotten. We should often consider that we see visible object, no husband or wife, friend or relative. Acharn said to me: “You assume that there is Lodewijk, but you just enjoy paññatti, a concept. What is more beneficial: understanding that there is a reality, not Lodewijk, or thinking that he is Lodewijk?” We spoke about the death of someone who is dear to us. I asked what I could do in case my husband would die. Acharn said: “When he dies and you would feel lonely, you cling to just air, to nothing. Where is he after death? You cling to your own memory. We should often consider this.” When I said that we have to be prepared, she said: “Now you are preparing.” We can only prepare ourselves for a great loss by understanding the present moment more clearly. Throughout our journey Acharn emphasized the importance of understanding the present moment: “We should not worry about enlightenment, but what about the understanding of this moment? Understanding can develop from one moment to a following moment. There is no other way but the understanding of the reality of this moment.” We read, consider and discuss Dhamma just in order to understand the reality of this moment. Sometimes she was yawning and when I asked her whether she was tired she answered: ”It is just this moment.” ******* Nina. #99950 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. nilovg Dear Sarah and Chew, Op 11-aug-2009, om 9:28 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > One cannot find an unconditioned dhamma in the sa.msaara. Nibbaana > is only the object of the lokuttaracitta. Even the lokuttaracitta > itselves are also conditioned dhamma, they arise and cease. In the > ultimate sense, concept does not exist. So, in the ultimate sense, > Nibbaana is the only unconditioned dhamma. And the remaining are > only conditioned dhamma, which are citta, cetasika, and ruupa. > .... > S: I would have said the same a while back and Nina was suggesting > the same when we were in Bkk, but I think we have to consider the > two manifestations of aakaasa ruupa more carefully. ------- N: I still find it strange to say: there are five paramattha dhammas, three, citta, cetasika and rupa are conditioned, and two are unconditioned: nibbaana and open space. Nina. #99951 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2.Tiika to Vis. XIV, 63. nilovg Dear Sarah, Perhaps the Tiika to this Vis. text can help. Op 11-aug-2009, om 9:34 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: "The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter. > Its function is to indicate the boundaries of matter. It is > manifested as the confines of matter; or its manifestation consists > in being untouched (by the 4 great elements), and in holes and > apertures. Its proximate cause is the matter delimited. It is on > account of the space element that one can say of material things > delimited that 'this is above. below, around that' " > (Vis.M. XIV, 63).\ > ... > S: When we read about the second manifestation of aakaasa ruupa as > being "untouched (by the 4 great elements)" as in holes and > apertures, leading one to be able to say 'this is above. below, > around that' etc, how do you undertstand the aakaasa ruupa which is > "untouched"? ---------- N: According to the Tiika it is said of pariccheda ruupa that it is untouched. Text: N: Vijjamaanepi hi kalaapantarabhuutaana.m kalaapantarabhuutehi samphu.t.thabhaave ta.mta.mbhuutavivittataa ruupapariyanto aakaasoti yesa.m so paricchedo, tehi so asamphu.t.thova. If contact occurs between one group of the great elements with another group, space is the separation of each of them by delimiting materiality and thus it is the delimitation of those elements by which it is itself also untouched. A~n~nathaa paricchinnataa na siyaa tesa.m bhuutaana.m byaapibhaavaapattito. Otherwise there would be no delimiting of these great elements, but there would be pervasion among them. Abyaapitaa hi asamphu.t.thataa. The state of not pervading is the state of being untouched. Tenaaha bhagavaa “asamphu.t.tha.m catuuhi mahaabhuutehii”ti (dha. sa. 637, Therefore, the Blessed one said, “untouched by the great Elements.” Ka.n.nacchiddamukhavivaraadivasena ca chiddavivarabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa vaa. And because of the cavity in the ear, or the door of the mouth, and so on, its manifestation is the state of cavities and apertures. Yesa.m ruupaana.m paricchedo, tattheva tesa.m paricchedabhaavena labbhatiiti vutta.m “paricchinnaruupapada.t.thaanaa”ti. Of which material phenomena it is the delimitation, there it is applied, and thus he said, “its proximate cause is matter delimited.” “Yaaya paricchinnesuu”ti-aadinaa aakaasadhaatuyaa ta.mta.mkalaapaana.m kalaapantarehi asa"nkarakaara.nata.m dasseti. With the words, “And it is on account of it that one can say of material things delimited (that this is above, below, around, that”) he taught with regard to the element of space that it is the cause for each of the groups that they are not blended with each other. ****** Nina. #99952 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "All puthujjanas are mad" christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Chris, > > --- On Tue, 11/8/09, Christine Forsyth wrote: > > >I vaguely recall a thread where the source of the quote "All puthujjanas are mad" was given. > .... > S: From #20895, a couple of leads: > > --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > >> The word << mad >> is the translation > > of the Sanskrit word Viparyasa > > (Pali: Vipallasa) which means > > perversions, perverted views, error. > > > > The worldling is considered << mad >> > > because he/she holds perverted views. > > > > There are 4 main perverted views: > .... > >Sarah: In the comy to the Mulapariyaaya Sutta with regard to the same perversions of view we read: > > "..Or, without releasing such a segment of earth, he perceives it as a > being (satta) or as belonging to a being. Why does he perceive it in this > way? This should not be asked, for the worldling is like a madman. he > seizes upon anything he can in whatever way he can. or else, the reason > is that he has no regard for the ariyans, etc; or, as the Exalted One will > say later on, "because it has not been fully understood by him". > .... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > Thank you so much Sarah for taking the time to track the thread down from back in 2003. Much appreciation - I wasn't going mad :-) and imagining we'd discussed it before. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #99953 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/11/2009 4:14:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, Actually, I thought your thoughts were quite interesting:) --- On Thu, 6/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: >1) Except for simple curiosity and love of the dramatic, I don't see why anyone should care very much about this matter, for it has no obvious bearing on awakening and the cessation of dukkha. .... S: I tend to agree with you - I'm not very interested in it either, but when I hear people try to justify why there must be an "intermediate state", it always seems to end up as a justification for 'something', 'some being' as existing in an ultimate sense... ... >2) As one possibility, might not what is referred to as an intermediary state be a non-universal matter but, instead, an instance of a more or less short-lived existence as a peta for certain beings? ... S: However short-lived an existence might be, even if but for a few cittas, then it is in one of the realms delineated, such as the peta realm. Just cittas, no matter the desires involved. What you describe as the 'desperately desirous' and so on can all be found included in the descriptions of the peta realms. ------------------------------------------- Yes, exactly my point. I am considering how time spent in the peta realm, especially if brief, might *seem* to be time in an "intermediate state," though is not. -------------------------------------------------- Anyway, just our thinking about it all and what's more important is the awareness of the thinking now, the kindness and courtesy to those around us and the development of understanding of the realities which make up our lives - all of which I think we agree on:-) -------------------------------------------------- Sounds good to me. :-) ------------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99954 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: English translation of Complete Tipitaka nilovg Hi Sac9090 and pt, Op 11-aug-2009, om 6:52 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sac9090" wrote: > > > > Hi. Does anyone know where I can get a complete MODERN English > translation of the COMPLETE Tipitaka whether online or hard copies? > > -------- N: in addition on Rob K's web Vipassana, a transl of Middle Length S.: http://www.vipassana.info/Majjhima_contents.htm --------- Nina. #99955 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (29) and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 29:DN 33.1.11(29) 'Four kinds of kamma: There is (a) black kamma with black result (ka.nha-vipaaka'm), (b) bright kamma with bright result (sukka-v.), (c) black-and-bright kamma with black-and- bright result, (d) kamma that is neither black nor bright (aka.nham- asukka'm), with neither black nor bright result, leading to the destruction of kamma. (Cattaari kammaani: atthaavuso, kamma.m ka.nha.m ka.nhavipaaka.m; atthaavuso, kamma.m sukka.m sukkavipaaka.m; atthaavuso, kamma.m ka.nhasukka.m ka.nhasukkavipaaka.m; atthaavuso, kamma.m aka.nhaasukka.m aka.nhaasukkavipaaka.m kammakkhayaaya sa.mvattati.) -------- N: The Co states that the ten akusala kammapatha are dark. These are: killing, stealing, sexual misbehaviour, lying, slandering, rude speech, idle talk, covetousness, illwill, wrong views. The dark result is rebirth in an unhappy plane. As to bright (sukka) kamma, these are the kusala kammapatha, which are pure (pa.n.dara). As to bright result, this is the pure (pa.n.dara) vipaaka by rebirth in a heavenly plane. The subco: glosses dark as impure (maliina).This is said of the citta that is not luminous (apabhassara). It is dark since it is the cause of a dark rebirth. The dark vipaaka is being born in an unhappy plane and for humans it is misfortune. As to pure, pa.n.dara, this is clean, of a luminous (phabassara) citta. It is bright since it is the cause of a bright rebirth. The bright vipaaka is being born in a heavenly plane, and for humans it means possession of what is radiant. -------- As to black-and-bright kamma with black-and-bright result, the Co explains that this is ‘mixed kamma’, dark and bright kamma that will bring its result accordingly as dark and bright vipaaka. The subco explains: at times dark kamma is performed and at times bright kamma. The Co explains that akusala kamma brings as result birth in an animal womb, but because of kusala kamma (that was also performed) there is birth as a state elephant and one experiences happiness. Because of kusala kamma there is birth into a royal clan, but because of akusala kamma that was also performed one experiences what is painful. As to kamma that is neither black nor bright (aka.nham-asukka'm), with neither black nor bright result, leading to the destruction of kamma, this the wisdom of the four Paths (catumagga~naa.na.m). N: Thus, this is pa~n~naa occurring at the four stages of enlightenment leading to the end of rebirth when arahatship is reached. When there is the destruction of all kamma there is neither dark vipaaka nor bright vipaaka. --------- N: It is sorrowful to be in the cycle of birth and death, since it is not known what kamma will produce rebirth. Even when bright kamma is performed in this life, dark kamma of a past life is able to produce an unhappy rebirth. --------- Pali co: Ka.nhanti kaa.laka.m dasaakusalakammapathakamma.m. Ka.nhavipaakanti apaaye nibbattanato kaa.lakavipaaka.m. Sukkanti pa.n.dara.m kusalakammapathakamma.m. Sukkavipaakanti sagge nibbattanato pa.n.daravipaaka.m. Ka.nhasukkanti missakakamma.m... --------- Nina. #99956 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (22) nilovg Dear pt, Op 11-aug-2009, om 6:15 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > I'd like to ask one more thing about that dhammasangani paragraph > [617] (in full at the end of the post): after it lists the various > colours, then it lists various shapes, as well as intensities, as > if to suggest that shape and intensity are also rupas, aside from > colour. However, there's a note at that point which says: > > "Note 9: See my Introduction, on `long,' short, as only indirectly > objects of sight. `The foregoing seven visibles are set forth > without reference to any base (vatthu); the following according to > common usage' (ibid.)."... > pt: > So, then the correct understanding would be that only colour itself > is a rupa and object of the sense-door process of cittas, while > shape and intensity of a visual object are concepts employed in the > subsequent mind-door processes of cittas? ------- N:Visible object is just all that appears through the eyesense. There could not be thinking of a concept of long or short if there were no colour appearing through the eyesense. What is visible is seen and thinking about long and short is done by cittas arising in a mind- door process. When you notice that there is a moment of seeing, there are in reality many moments of seeing arising in different processes. But we should not try to catch any reality. Knowing that seeing just sees what is visible is enough. --------- > pt: Also, what is "Sankhya" that's referenced in the note 1, is > that an early abhidhamma sect or something like that? -------- N: According to PED: sankhya is a trend of talk. Sankhata in Pali is to be translated as called, or so called, I met this in texts. -------- Nina. #99957 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:22 pm Subject: Re: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (26-27), sutta 26 and commentary. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah et al, Regarding: Sarah: "And what is the 'pious and satisfied' if not more maana?" Scott: Gradual Sayings, The Book of Fours, XX, (200): "And how does a monk smoulder? Monks, when there is the thought: I am, - there is also the thought I am in this world; I am thus; I am otherwise; I am not eternal; I am eternal. Should I be; Should I be in this world; Should I be thus; Should I be otherwise. May I become; May I become in this world; May I become thus; May I become otherwise. I shall become; I shall become in this world; I shall become thus; I shall become otherwise. That is how a monk smoulders...That is how a monk blazes up...That is how a monk is bemused..." Scott: 'I wish I was kinder.' 'I should be less angry.' 'I should be less conceited.' 'I wish I hadn't been angry last night.' 'I shouldn't have looked at that woman that way.' And on and on... Sincerely, Scott. #99958 From: "Kenneth" Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2.Tiika to Vis. XIV, 63. ashkenn2k Dear Nina and Sarah An interesting topic: Space Element, The Dispeller of Delusion I <357> In the description of the external space element, asamphuttam catuhi mahabhutehi <85.1> ("untouched by the four great primaries") should be understood as what is freed from the four great primaries begining with a break in a wall, a break in a doorway. By this is describe that space whereby, when doing preliminary work on it, fourfold or fivefold jhana arises. There are earlier paragraphs on space like of the body like the ear cavity.... a bit late, so too tired to type the full paragraph from 353 to 357. Maybe tomorrow :-) explaining on the meaing of - according to Summary of Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary, Chapter One - para 30. Formless consciousness is fourfold by distinction of the four objects of space, etc... that should become its objects, and by the objects that should pass beyond, namely the kasina, space, consciousness, and its absence. For in due course, when it passes beyond the sign of the kasina that is the object of the fifth jhana by removing it, it takes as object the space that is obtained, then having passed beyond this, it takes as object the consciousness that occurred previously; ........ tomorrow again to type finish :-) Cheers Ken O #99959 From: "Chew" Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2.Tiika to Vis. XIV, 63. chewsadhu Dear Sarah and Nina, I agree with Nina's points. Additional, in Visuddhimagga, many Dhamma are explained in conventional sense. "The cavity in the ear, or the door of the mouth, and so on, its manifestation is the state of cavities and apertures." This is also in conventional sense. It is also like an analogy to the Dhamma in ultimate sense. --- S: I think we have to stick to 'in the ultimate sense' and leave aside the scientific terms. I believe that 'in the ultimate sense' in the water, air outer space or cavities, there are not just 'concentrated' kalapas of rupas separated by pariccheda aakaasa rupa, but for the most part are 'open space'. --- C: Yes, we have to define clearly that we are referring to the ultimate sense or conventional sense to avoid misunderstanding. "Fish swims in the water", etc are in conventional sense. It is just like "The cavity in the ear". My intention is to show that the 'open space', which we move around, does not mean absent of ruupa. It is just like fish able to swim in the water. We cannot say that there is absent of ruupa or 'open space', just because we are about to move around. And I also would like to show that there are kalaapaa around with quoting "oxygen in the air" and "temperature in the outer space". It is an easy way to know that there are kalaapaa around us by knowing the temperature. So, we couldn't find the 'open space'. --- S: Surely this would be because they don't have physical forms which are impeded by the hardness and kalapas of rupas? Or else, like in Maha Moggallana's case, it is by psychic powers? --- C: Only aruupa beings have no physical forms and all ruupa. --- S: Perhaps you might be able to join us in Bangkok for discussions with A.Sujin sometime? --- C: I will be very happy too learn from A.Sujin and you all. It is just like receiving the most precious gift in the world. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #99960 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 1, no 4. nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 10-aug-2009, om 16:23 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Losing of the luggage, one lose patience because one is attached to > it, to the items inside or to the aversion of the inconveniences. > If one look at it with understanding, understanding it as anatta, > anicca and dukkha, then understand that such items do not belong to > oneself. > > Its easy for me to say we should be patient, even at that moment if > I was in the that situation, I believe at that time, I may not be > patient either. But understanding is a gradual process, is the key > to patience. -------- N: Yes, patience grows when understanding develops. It happened now so often on our travels with Kh. Sujin that her luggage did not come or arrived a day later. The Thai group travelled from Bgk to Gaya, and then the airline just left behind the luggage or even part of the people who had booked. Kh Sujin had only the clothes she was wearing at that moment. But she really did not mind a bit. Just vipaaka. She said long ago that she was ready to receive any kind of vipaaka. Nina. #99961 From: "colette" Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" ksheri3 Good Morning Howard, Besides the humor I found in your reply, here, I can't help but think that at the end you gave me a little backhanded touch? Okay, now that I can be sure that I'm speaking with a person that has the experience I'm always searching for, let me tell you that I am aghast by the behavior that you people are forced to accept AND AT THE SAME TIME IGNORE. I cannot possibly conceive of this reality; ya want to know a little bit that freaks the hell out of me: damn, I had these tiny little bits of "cognition" before my first "Near Death Experience" in 1978 but after that those tiny little bits of cognition became sooooooooooooooooo clear and real that I could not pass them over as if they were/are nothing. Now that is something to be astonished by. AS if I was looking at myself, I can totally relate to your experience with the realities that I portray and speak of. Damn, I must freak tons of people out by expressing ACTUALITIES and REALITIES that they have no control of and no control over. Pardon my pressumptions here but I characterize you as a "former" Jew and anybody that's anybody clearly knows that the Jews are well known for their scholarship and their ORTHODOXY. Do you realize how difficult it was for me, in 2004, to have found scholars such as Dr.Sanford Drobb, that actually study and work on the Kabballah, as well as having such pertinent and workable pshychology after studying such messes as that issued by S.L.McGregor Mathers and Wynn Westcott of the Golden Dawn. In fact I was totalloy glorified when I was trying to re-locate to Nashville TN where I found, on my first visit in my first week in Nashville, I found the book THE TREE OF LIFE by Isreal Regardie which never left my hand from the second I found it -- I had been looking for that book in the few bookstores in Chicago that I had access to but could never find it. Damn, just consider what I speak of, .... do I get deep and I hold no punches. This, FOR ME, is an extasy, a bliss, ALMOST A NARCOTIC EXPERIENCE, which is why I told people in 2004, when I found them on the internet, that this stuff is a drug for me, I'm addicted and simply can't get enough. But luckily, I have reliable sources and methodologies to fall back on which have taught me techniques to use to calm and sedate my addictions through the application of meditation. > I am forced to admit, though, that the response you give causes me to > ponder EVEN DEEPER since I was always under the impression that you were of an > ABOVE INTELLIGENCE LEVEL and would have long since found this equality, > this samadhi, and would have already worked through the numerous paths that it > opens up. > ------------------------------------ > Huh? This samadhi? > -------------------------------------- > colette: ya want to actually hear the thoughts that were going through my head when I read this: "that is sooooooo jewish" I'm laughing mind you. ------------------------------- > BOYYYYYYY, if you've never found any equality within the concept of a > "purgatory" to an state of consciousness called BARDO, > -------------------------------------- > It just didn't occur to me. I think little about bardos and less about > purgatory. > -------------------------------------- > colette: <....> I'm focusing on the TRANSITIONAL ASPECTS of the concept of a "purgatory" and that of a "bardo". They are both states of being which are nothing more than steps in the process of psychology. That's on the human level from what little I've had the chance to find and study. ON THE EXPERIENCIATAL LEVEL which is where I base my entire study upon, I CANNOT BELIEVE HOW CLOSE THIS IS TO THE REALITY UPON WHICH I HAVE EXPERIENCED. Okay, I admit that I have given far too much information to people that are more than willing to pervert my psychology and thus pervert my experience, such as that which is done with children to have children accuse their parents of raping them, a technique of planting thoughts and experiences during a hypnotic state of consciousness, and I agree that there must be some of that actually occuring within me, however the foundational material that I experieced , I FEEL, is intact, and in it's continuity. I was very astonished when I began reading material from THELEMA concerning the states of consciousness that exist in the afterlife but there were times when I just had to put that .... down ..... Ahhhhhh, don't quote me on that since "the mind only school" shows me that there is a connection between the individual and the planet which then translates into the planet and the universe, etc. I haven't done that much research on it, in that aspect since I'm being programmed with Quantum Physics, that I can only understand on the surface of that which is explained to me since I HAVE NEVER STUDIED PHYSICS AND I HAVEN'T EVEN RECEIVED A PASSING GRADE IN A CHEM 100 CLASS YET. Sure, I know the basics and I've got tons of information from my Chem classes but I haven't properly answered the questions put to me by the robotic machine that wants robotic answers. PURGATORY and BARDOS are exact same concepts of TRANSITION. In the aspect of a purgatory there is no rebirth other than that which is in this "eternal" heaven or hell. The entire concept of a "rebirth" in this human life form IS ABSTRACT to the orthodoxy of Western religions. In fact, I'm willing to go out on a limb and suggest that Shakyamuni was really angering those Hindu orthodoxy slaves when he came up with this concept of a Wheel of Samsara of DEath, Life, Rebirth, etc., just look at the concept of "kalyanagunas" and tell me that it does not equal the concept of Svabhava? I'm working in an Vishishtadvaita conceptualization here. This deals with Tantra and is WAY OUTSIDE THE CONCEPTS OF THE THERAVADAN. It totally relates to the concepts found in the Tibetan VArjayana conceptualization of Buddhism or the Mahayana school. ------------------------ > then what, prey-tell, might happen if you attempt meditations upon such > words and thoughts as those held by Muslims when using this obscure word > known as "TRANSMIGRATION", or "VENERATION OF THE DEAD" (see DAY OF THE DEAD in > Central America [Mexico])? > --------------------------------------- > I don't think about this at all. :-) > --------------------------------------- > > colette: WHAT? <...> come now, I think you are far too intelligent to be such a pigeon. In fact I have been amazed by my friends in Asia by their intelligence as to my arcane language and their ability to grasp my meanings, HOWEVER, there are times when I am equally as amazed by their stupidity which I generally refer back to myself as being "inexperienced" enough with Buddhism to recognize what they are intending. --------------------------------- > I thought it was an interesting observation on your part. :-) > Seamless > > /A change in anything is a change in everything/ > > (Anonymous) "It can happen to you. It can happen to me. It can happen to everyone eventually. When it happens it happens in every way." YES toodles, colette #99962 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 8/11/2009 3:40:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: Good Morning Howard, Besides the humor I found in your reply, here, I can't help but think that at the end you gave me a little backhanded touch? ---------------------------------------- I don't understand. ------------------------------------- Okay, now that I can be sure that I'm speaking with a person that has the experience I'm always searching for, let me tell you that I am aghast by the behavior that you people are forced to accept AND AT THE SAME TIME IGNORE. ------------------------------------- I haven't a clue who you mean by "you people." ----------------------------------- I cannot possibly conceive of this reality; ya want to know a little bit that freaks the hell out of me: damn, I had these tiny little bits of "cognition" before my first "Near Death Experience" in 1978 but after that those tiny little bits of cognition became sooooooooooooooooo clear and real that I could not pass them over as if they were/are nothing. Now that is something to be astonished by. AS if I was looking at myself, I can totally relate to your experience with the realities that I portray and speak of. Damn, I must freak tons of people out by expressing ACTUALITIES and REALITIES that they have no control of and no control over. Pardon my pressumptions here but I characterize you as a "former" Jew and anybody that's anybody clearly knows that the Jews are well known for their scholarship and their ORTHODOXY. ------------------------------------------ I'm not former. And, IMO, Jews are people, same as others, coming in all varieties, good and bad. There is, of course, a culture of study that comes out of the religion, being based on the idea that study of "torah" subsumes all other good deeds. I, myself, am less inclined to study and more to application, though of course study is the basis for proper practice. ----------------------------------------- Do you realize how difficult it was for me, in 2004, to have found scholars such as Dr.Sanford Drobb, that actually study and work on the Kabballah, as well as having such pertinent and workable pshychology after studying such messes as that issued by S.L.McGregor Mathers and Wynn Westcott of the Golden Dawn. In fact I was totalloy glorified when I was trying to re-locate to Nashville TN where I found, on my first visit in my first week in Nashville, I found the book THE TREE OF LIFE by Isreal Regardie which never left my hand from the second I found it -- I had been looking for that book in the few bookstores in Chicago that I had access to but could never find it. Damn, just consider what I speak of, .... do I get deep and I hold no punches. This, FOR ME, is an extasy, a bliss, ALMOST A NARCOTIC EXPERIENCE, which is why I told people in 2004, when I found them on the internet, that this stuff is a drug for me, I'm addicted and simply can't get enough. But luckily, I have reliable sources and methodologies to fall back on which have taught me techniques to use to calm and sedate my addictions through the application of meditation. -------------------------------------------- I have a tiny interest in kabbalah, but miniscule compared to my interest in the Dhamma. ------------------------------------------- > I am forced to admit, though, that the response you give causes me to > ponder EVEN DEEPER since I was always under the impression that you were of an > ABOVE INTELLIGENCE LEVEL and would have long since found this equality, > this samadhi, and would have already worked through the numerous paths that it > opens up. > ------------------------------------ > Huh? This samadhi? > -------------------------------------- > colette: ya want to actually hear the thoughts that were going through my head when I read this: "that is sooooooo jewish" I'm laughing mind you. -------------------------------------- I understand that you are not putting Jews down here. However, it is no more "Jewish" than anything else. It is ordinary language. ---------------------------------------- ------------------------------- > BOYYYYYYY, if you've never found any equality within the concept of a > "purgatory" to an state of consciousness called BARDO, > -------------------------------------- > It just didn't occur to me. I think little about bardos and less about > purgatory. > -------------------------------------- > colette: <....> I'm focusing on the TRANSITIONAL ASPECTS of the concept of a "purgatory" and that of a "bardo". They are both states of being which are nothing more than steps in the process of psychology. That's on the human level from what little I've had the chance to find and study. ------------------------------------- Yes, I understand your point, and as I said, I think it's a good one. -------------------------------------- ON THE EXPERIENCIATAL LEVEL which is where I base my entire study upon, I CANNOT BELIEVE HOW CLOSE THIS IS TO THE REALITY UPON WHICH I HAVE EXPERIENCED. Okay, I admit that I have given far too much information to people that are more than willing to pervert my psychology and thus pervert my experience, such as that which is done with children to have children accuse their parents of raping them, a technique of planting thoughts and experiences during a hypnotic state of consciousness, and I agree that there must be some of that actually occuring within me, however the foundational material that I experieced , I FEEL, is intact, and in it's continuity. I was very astonished when I began reading material from THELEMA concerning the states of consciousness that exist in the afterlife but there were times when I just had to put that .... down ..... Ahhhhhh, don't quote me on that since "the mind only school" shows me that there is a connection between the individual and the planet which then translates into the planet and the universe, etc. I haven't done that much research on it, in that aspect since I'm being programmed with Quantum Physics, that I can only understand on the surface of that which is explained to me since I HAVE NEVER STUDIED PHYSICS AND I HAVEN'T EVEN RECEIVED A PASSING GRADE IN A CHEM 100 CLASS YET. Sure, I know the basics and I've got tons of information from my Chem classes but I haven't properly answered the questions put to me by the robotic machine that wants robotic answers. PURGATORY and BARDOS are exact same concepts of TRANSITION. In the aspect of a purgatory there is no rebirth other than that which is in this "eternal" heaven or hell. The entire concept of a "rebirth" in this human life form IS ABSTRACT to the orthodoxy of Western religions. In fact, I'm willing to go out on a limb and suggest that Shakyamuni was really angering those Hindu orthodoxy slaves when he came up with this concept of a Wheel of Samsara of DEath, Life, Rebirth, etc., just look at the concept of "kalyanagunas" and tell me that it does not equal the concept of Svabhava? I'm working in an Vishishtadvaita conceptualization here. This deals with Tantra and is WAY OUTSIDE THE CONCEPTS OF THE THERAVADAN. It totally relates to the concepts found in the Tibetan VArjayana conceptualization of Buddhism or the Mahayana school. ------------------------ > then what, prey-tell, might happen if you attempt meditations upon such > words and thoughts as those held by Muslims when using this obscure word > known as "TRANSMIGRATION", or "VENERATION OF THE DEAD" (see DAY OF THE DEAD in > Central America [Mexico])? > --------------------------------------- > I don't think about this at all. :-) > --------------------------------------- > > colette: WHAT? <...> come now, I think you are far too intelligent to be such a pigeon. In fact I have been amazed by my friends in Asia by their intelligence as to my arcane language and their ability to grasp my meanings, HOWEVER, there are times when I am equally as amazed by their stupidity which I generally refer back to myself as being "inexperienced" enough with Buddhism to recognize what they are intending. --------------------------------- > I thought it was an interesting observation on your part. :-) > Seamless > > /A change in anything is a change in everything/ > > (Anonymous) "It can happen to you. It can happen to me. It can happen to everyone eventually. When it happens it happens in every way." YES toodles, colette ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99963 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:01 am Subject: Ten or Eleven? hantun1 Dear Sarah, You wrote in Message 99779, Another interesting quote is in Dilemmas VIII, "Nibbana is without a Counterpart": "Reverend Naagasena, when you say that "eleven" special qualities of aakaasa are present in nibbaana, what are the "eleven" qualities of aakaasa that are present in nibbaana?" "As, sire, aakaasa is (i) not born, (ii) does not age, (iii) does not die, (iv) does not decease (here), (v) does not arise (elsewhere), (vi) is hard to master, (vii) cannot be carried off by thieves, (viii) depends on nothing (anissata), (ix) is the sphere of birds (vihagamana - lit. goes through the air), (x) without obstruction, (xi) unending, even so, sire, is nibbaana, not born, does not age, does not die, does not decease, does not arise, is hard to master, cannot be carried off by thieves, depends on nothing, is the sphere of ariyans, without obstruction, unending. These, sire, are the "eleven" special qualities of aakaasa that are present in nibbaana." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/99779 -------------------- Han: Yes, there are "eleven" qualities. I have counted them. However, in the book translated by N.K.G. Mendis, on page 133, it stated that there are "ten" qualities. But when I counted them in Mendis translation I got "eleven" qualities, the same as quoted by you. Then, was Mendis wrong in translating "ten" qualities? I checked with the Pali text. Bhante Naagasena "Aakaasassa "dasa" gu.naa nibbaana.m anupavi.t.thaa" ti ya.m vadesi. Katame aakaasassa "dasa" gu.naa nibbaana.m anupavi.t.thaati? Ya thaa mahaaraaja aakaaso (i) na jaayati, (ii) na jiiyati, (iii) na miiyati, (iv) na cavati, (v) na uppajjati, (vi) duppasaho, (vii) acoraahara.no, (viii) anissito, (ix) vihaga-gamano, (x) niraavara.no, (xi) ananto. Han: In the Pali text, I see eleven qualities enumerated. But it still says ten "dasa" qualities. So Mendis was not wrong. The Pali text itself was wrong. So I wonder how much Milindapa~nha is reliable when it says aakaasa is an unconditioned dhamma, same as Nibbaana? So, I had asked you [Apart from Milindapa~nha, do you know any sutta, in which aakaasa is recognized as asankhata dhamma or an unconditioned dhamma? If you know, can you kindly quote the sutta, please?] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/99784 But you have not yet answered my question. Respectfully, Han #99964 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:07 am Subject: idea of Self szmicio Dear Alberto, Connie, Sarah, Nina, Jon and friends I am attached to idea of Self. I take fleeting word of hearing, seeing for mine, myself. I am attached to pleasant feeling and dont like unpleasant. My best wishes Lukas #99965 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:05 am Subject: What is tension in abhidhamma terms? ptaus1 Hi all, I'd like to ask what would be the explanation of tension in abhidhamma terms? Here are some of my thoughts about it, please correct me if I'm wrong. 1. For me so far, the easiest way to distinguish between kusala and akusala is to notice if there's any tension (tensing up) involved at the moment - all akusala states usually seem to produce, or are associated with, a lot of tension. I'm wondering how to define tension in abhidhamma terms. My guess would be that, initially, tension is body-intimation rupas, produced by akusala cittas. 2. Since there's a lot of akusala during the day, tension seems to accumulate in the form of "muscle tension", conventionally resulting in "stress", and then that "tension" as a rupa can become an object of citta. I guess "tension" is in reality perceived as a tangible object of body-consciousness, so that would mean that in reality tension actually appears as hardness, pressure and heat? So all my designations like tension, muscle tension, stress, etc, would be just concepts, right? 3. If tension really is perceived only as hardness, pressure and heat through body-consciousness, that would make the arising tension actually vipaka? Because, as far as I remember, all pleasant or unpleasant body consciousnesses are in fact vipaka cittas. 4. And then of course, once tension is perceived as object together with the unpleasant bodily feeling that arises with tension, then more akusala can arise as aversion to the unpleasant bodily feeling. So in this case, I'm assuming tension is a condition for the akusla citta by object condition. Is this correct, and are there any other conditions that I'm missing? 5. When there's a lot of tension during the day, often I'm also much more irritable and tend to react with more akusala than usual. But I have no idea as what condition would tension classify as in that case. I don't think it's object condition, since the akusala reaction (irritation) is not directly to tension (i.e. tension is not the object of citta), but it's more like tension being a background supportive environment for akusala towards something else. Perhaps, it could be decisive support condition? Thanks for your help. Best wishes pt #99966 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] idea of Self nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 12-aug-2009, om 8:07 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > I am attached to idea of Self. I take fleeting word of hearing, > seeing for mine, myself. I am attached to pleasant feeling and dont > like unpleasant. ------ N: You made me laugh. Who likes unpleasant feeling? But we cannot get what we like, that is a form of dukkha. We cannot say: let my feeling be thus, not thus. So you notice pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, you know these characteristics, but they are not yet known as just dhammas, only namas, not my feeling. We know the names, but not the realities, but knowing them as they are is a long process. During countless lives there was ignorance and clinging and how could this be eliminated soon? Take as an example form the Therigatha the Theri Dhammaa:< I wandered for alms is the verse of Theri Dhammaa. She too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. Through her accumulation of a store of merit, she was born during this Buddha era in the home of a [good] family in Saavatthi. > Again and again it is emphasized that they had to accumulate kusala for ages. Until the time was ripe for them to meet the Buddha, hear the Dhamma and attain enlightenment. Consider yourself lucky to hear the dhamma now and develop understanding, even though it be little by little. -------- Nina. #99967 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:24 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (41) hantun1 Physical Phenomena (41) Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 4. Sense objects (continuation). Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ We would like to hear only pleasant things. When someone speaks unpleasant words to us we are inclined to think about this for a long time instead of being mindful of realities. We may forget that the moment of hearing is vipaakacitta, result produced by kamma. Nobody can change vipaaka. Hearing falls away immediately. When we think with aversion about the meaning of the words that were spoken, we accumulate unwholesomeness. We read in the "Greater Discourse of the Elephant's Footprint" (Middle Length Sayings I, 28) that Saariputta spoke to the monks about the elements that are conditioned, impermanent and devoid of self. He also spoke about the hearing of unpleasant words: "... Your reverences, if others abuse, revile, annoy, vex this monk, he comprehends: 'This painful feeling that has arisen in me is born of sensory impingement on the ear, it has a cause, not no cause. What is the cause? Sensory impingement is the cause.' He sees that sensory impingement is impermanent, he sees that feeling... perception... the habitual tendencies (sa"nkhaarakkhandha) are impermanent, he sees that consciousness is impermanent [Note 3]. His mind rejoices, is pleased, composed, and is set on the objects of the element. If, your reverences, others comport themselves in undesirable, disagreeable, unpleasant ways towards that monk, and he receives blows from their hands and from clods of earth and from sticks and weapons, he comprehends thus: 'This body is such that blows from hands affect it and blows from clods of earth affect it and blows from sticks affect it and blows from weapons affect it. But this was said by the Lord in the Parable of the Saw: If, monks, low-down thieves should carve you limb from limb with a two-handled saw, whoever sets his heart at enmity, he, for this reason, is not a doer of my teaching. Unsluggish energy shall come to be stirred up by me, unmuddled mindfulness set up, the body tranquillised, impassible, the mind composed and onepointed. Now, willingly, let blows from hands affect this body, let blows from clods of earth... from sticks... from weapons affect it, for this teaching of the Awakened Ones is being done.'" Do we see our experiences as elements to such a degree already that, when we hear unpleasant words, we can immediately realize: "This painful feeling that has arisen in me is born of sensory impingement on the ear"? In order to see realities as they are it is necessary to develop understanding of naama and ruupa. [Note 3] This sutta refers to the five khandhas. Conditioned naamas and ruupas can be classified as five khandhas or aggregates: ruupakkhandha (comprising all ruupas), vedanaakkhandha or the khandha of feelings, sa~n~naakkhandha, the khandha of perception or remembrance, sa"nkhaarakkhandha, the khandha of "habitual tendencies" or "formations", including all cetasikas other than feeling and perception, vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, including all cittas. ----------------------------- Chapter 4. Sense objects to be continued. with metta, Han #99968 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:33 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 2, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, When we can realize that each reality which appears disappears immediately we can learn to let it go instead of thinking long stories about it. We spoke about seeing and thinking of the details of what was seen. I remarked that if one does not pay so much attention to details, one can know what seeing is. Acharn said: “You do not have to try to prevent thinking. When thinking thinks a great deal, it is time to understand thinking. Develop understanding now, that is better than waiting to see the precise distinction between nåma and rúpa, or the rapidity of their arising and falling away. That is beyond our understanding at this moment. One studies in order to have more understanding of realities, we have to go stage by stage. There should be no expectation of result.” When we pay attention just to what appears now, understanding can develop from moment to moment and we do not cling to an idea of stages of insight we want to attain. In order to remind us of “this moment”, Acharn spoke about the processes of cittas which experience objects through the five senses and through the mind-door. In between the processes there are bhavanga-cittas, life-continuum. Bhavanga-cittas do not experience sense objects which impinge time and again on the sense-doors and on the mind-door. The bhavanga-cittas experience their own object which is the same as the object experienced shortly before the dying- consciousness of the previous life. When we are fast asleep and not dreaming, bhavanga-cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another. Acharn used a simile of actors who play on the stage. When the eye- door process is running, a play is going on and when the ear-door process is running, another play is going on. The cittas experiencing the sense objects are the actors and the bhavanga-cittas in between processes are like the darkness in between the acts, when the curtain is drawn. Each time when the curtain opens there is a new act going to be played. One never knows beforehand what kind of act will be played, it is a surprise. The acts change with great rapidity: seeing arises, then hearing, then thinking. They seem to occur all at the same time, but in reality there are different “acts” separated by bhavanga-cittas. They have no connection with each other. Each act is so short, it is already over before we realize it. This reminds us that there is no self who could direct the drama of life. We attach great importance to what we experience, but it only lasts for a moment. We are attached to praise and honour. Acharn said: “One may cling to praise and fame, but that is very dangerous. People become infatuated with these insignificant things. Praise is called an axe that falls from heaven. It wounds if one does not know how to receive it. We should learn to receive both blame and praise. We should get rid of the idea of rank, it destroys kusala. It is more beneficial to be “nobody”; to get rid of the idea of my body, of the idea of self, of rank or praise. One should understand that praise are only words people will forget immediately after they have been spoken. The person who clings to praise wants more. When we realize our clinging we will be able to get rid of it. Otherwise we will keep on clinging to rank, honour, praise and fortune." ****** Nina. #99969 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ten or Eleven? nilovg Dear Han and Sarah, Op 12-aug-2009, om 5:01 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > As, sire, aakaasa is (i) not born, (ii) does not age, (iii) does > not die, (iv) does not decease (here), (v) does not arise > (elsewhere), (vi) is hard to master, (vii) cannot be carried off by > thieves, (viii) depends on nothing (anissata), (ix) is the sphere > of birds (vihagamana - lit. goes through the air), (x) without > obstruction, (xi) unending, even so, sire, is nibbaana, not born, > does not age, does not die, does not decease, does not arise, is > hard to master, cannot be carried off by thieves, depends on > nothing, is the sphere of ariyans, without obstruction, unending. > These, sire, are the "eleven" special qualities of aakaasa that are > present in nibbaana." -------- N: I do not fall over numbers or ways of counting, but apart from this I had other thoughts about this text. The objective was explaining nibbaana by way of a simile. Evenso, in Dilamma VII, (Seventh Division, 270) nibbaana is compared to the wind. Milinda says: <"It is not possible , revered Naagasena, for the wind to be shown. For wind does not lend itself to being grasped by the hands or to being touched. But yet that wind is." "If it is not possible, sire, for the wind to be shown, well then the wind is not." "I know, revered Naagasena, that there is wind, I am convinced of it in my heart, but I a not able to point out the wind." "Even so, sire, nibbaana is, though it is not possible to point out nibbaana either by colour or by configuration."> We read in the same section at the beginning (268): "In the world these two, sire, are born neither of kamma nor of cause nor of physical change. What two? Aakaasa, sire, is born neither of kamma nor of cause nor of physical change; nibbaana, sire, is born neither of kamma nor of cause nor of physical change. These two, sire, are born neither of kamma nor of cause nor of physical change." There is a footnote to this text: -------- When we read similes, it is hard to know whether these words stand for realities or whether they are just figurative language. Perhaps it is not of much use to find out, rather, we should see the point that is made: nibbaana is a reality, but we cannot see it or touch it. There is a danger to lose sight of the point that is made in a text. It is the same in the Mahaaraahulovadasutta, about the cavity in the ears and nose. The Co. states: This is not attractive at all and this stands out even more in the commentary. The real point is to show the unattractiveness of the body. Raahula clung to the body very much. If we ask ourselves: is here conditioned akaasa or unconditioned aakaasa, is a concept being spoken of or a reality, then we get lost. We forget about the point of the sutta: to see anattaness, see reality as it is. ------- Nina. #99970 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is tension in abhidhamma terms? nilovg Dear pt, Op 12-aug-2009, om 9:05 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > I'd like to ask what would be the explanation of tension in > abhidhamma terms? Here are some of my thoughts about it, please > correct me if I'm wrong. > > 1. For me so far, the easiest way to distinguish between kusala and > akusala is to notice if there's any tension (tensing up) involved > at the moment - all akusala states usually seem to produce, or are > associated with, a lot of tension. I'm wondering how to define > tension in abhidhamma terms. My guess would be that, initially, > tension is body-intimation rupas, produced by akusala cittas. -------- N: I understand when you refer to citta rooted in aversion, accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Citta is one of the factors that can produce ruupas. Dosa may, for example produce hardness. This is body-intimation rupa only in the case of having the intention to convey a meaning. There is not body intimation all the time. What about citta rooted in lobha accompanied by happy feeling, or indifferent feeling? Or Citta rooted in ignorance, accompanied by indifferent feeling? I do not think people would experience this as stress. -------- > > pt: 2. Since there's a lot of akusala during the day, tension seems > to accumulate in the form of "muscle tension", conventionally > resulting in "stress", and then that "tension" as a rupa can become > an object of citta. I guess "tension" is in reality perceived as a > tangible object of body-consciousness, so that would mean that in > reality tension actually appears as hardness, pressure and heat? So > all my designations like tension, muscle tension, stress, etc, > would be just concepts, right? -------- N: It is thinking. ------- > > pt: 3. If tension really is perceived only as hardness, pressure > and heat through body-consciousness, that would make the arising > tension actually vipaka? Because, as far as I remember, all > pleasant or unpleasant body consciousnesses are in fact vipaka cittas. ------ N: The body-consciousness is vipaaka but the thinking about the hardness, etc. is not vipaaka, but usually akusala. -------- > > pt: 4. And then of course, once tension is perceived as object > together with the unpleasant bodily feeling that arises with > tension, then more akusala can arise as aversion to the unpleasant > bodily feeling. So in this case, I'm assuming tension is a > condition for the akusla citta by object condition. Is this > correct, and are there any other conditions that I'm missing? ------- N: Whatever is object for citta is object-condition, but this is not the only condition for citta to experience an object. Several conditions work together for the experience of a particular object. For example, when hearing-consciousness arises, it is kamma which produces the vipåkacitta which is hearing, as well as the earsense which is the doorway and the physical base of hearing. If kamma had not produced earsense one could not hear. It depends on a person's accumulations what types of citta arise after the vipaakacittas, during the moments of javana. It may be with aversion, or, if there is wise attention, the hardness or pain can remind him of anattaa. Whatever arises because of conditions is beyond control, it does not belong to a self. -------- > > 5. pt: When there's a lot of tension during the day, often I'm also > much more irritable and tend to react with more akusala than usual. > But I have no idea as what condition would tension classify as in > that case. I don't think it's object condition, since the akusala > reaction (irritation) is not directly to tension (i.e. tension is > not the object of citta), but it's more like tension being a > background supportive environment for akusala towards something > else. Perhaps, it could be decisive support condition? ------ N: Decisive support-condition includes the kusala and akusala a person has formerly accumulated. We all have accumulated ignorance of realities, and clinging. When you do not feel well, are tired or have a number of things that do not work out the way you would like, there is dosa conditioned by clinging. This is very common, it is human and understandable. Clinging to self plays a big part here. When you see the value of kusala, of generosity and kindness, of being less self- seeking, there are conditions for being less irritable and this is pleasant for yourself as well as for others. Kh Sujin reminded us many times of these points. If one is not reminded one may overlook the truth. It seems perhaps too simple, but it works. I know that dukkha is translated by stress by some people, but as I said above: what about moha, and lobha? We should not merely think of dosa. ------ Nina. #99971 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:20 am Subject: Re: Ten or Eleven? hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. Although I have written the subject of my message as "Ten or Eleven", I am not worried about the numbers also. What I was pointing out was the "discrepancy" of the Pali text in the same paragraph of Milindapa~nha. It reduces the reliability and credibility of the Milindapa~nha as a whole. As a matter of fact, I do not need any similes or epithets from Milindapa~nha to understand the Nibbaana. The Buddha had already mentioned 33 epithets for Nibbana in Samyutta Nikaya, SN 43, 12 to 44, which is very useful for me. (1) asankhata, (2) anata.m, (3) anaasava, (4) sacca, (5) paara, (6) nipu.na, (7) sududdasa, (8) ajajjara, (9) dhuva, (10) apalokita, (11) anidassana, (12) nippapa~nca, (13) santa, (14) amata, (15) pa.niita, (16) siva, (17) khema, (18) ta.nhakkhaya, (19) acchariya, (20) abbhuta, (21) aniitika, (22) aniitika dhamma, (23) Nibbana, (24) avyaapajjha, (25) viraaga, (26) suddhi, (27) mutti, (28) anaalaya, (29) diipa, (30) le.na, (31) taa.na, (32) sara.na, (33) paraaya.na. -------------------- I will be more grateful if you would kindly answer the question that I had asked Sarah. [Apart from Milindapa~nha, do you know any sutta, in which aakaasa is recognized as asankhata dhamma or an unconditioned dhamma? If you know, can you kindly quote the sutta, please?] Respectfully, Han #99972 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2.Tiika to Vis. XIV, 63. ashkenn2k Dear Nina and Sarah the full text: Space Element : Dispeller of Delusion Part I <353> In the description of the space element, "it is not ploughed (na kassati) in the sense of not impinging (appatighattanatthena) is akasa ("space"). Space itself, because of having "gone to" the state of space, is akasagatam ("hallow"; lit. "gone to space") <354> Agham ("vacant") is because of unstrikeablility (aghattaniyata); the vacant itself, because of having "gone to" the state of vacancy is aghagatam ("become vacant"). Vivaro ("open") is a gap. The same [gap], because of having "gone to" the open state is vivaragatam ("become open"). Asamphuttham mamasalohitehi {"untouched by flesh and blood") is free from flesh and blood. Kannacchiddam ("ear-cavity"), etc, however point out the [different aspect] of that [space]. Herein kannacchiddam ("ear cavity") is the cavity in the ear, the opening, the space untouched by flesh and blood. So with the rest. <355> Yena ("that whereby"): the opening whereby what is to be swallowed, classed as "eaten", etc is swallowed, enters inside. Yattha ("wherein"): in that space called lining inside the belly where the four kinds of what is to be swallowed remain. Yena {"whereby"): the opening whereby all that has gone bad and become repellent goes out. That [space] from the belly lining as far as the exrement passage, [consisting of] the cavity measuring a span and four finger-breadths and untouched by, free from, flesh and blood, should be understood as space element. <356> Yam va pana ("or whatever"): gap in the skin, gap in the flesh, gap in the sinew, gap in a bone, gap in a body-hair -all this is hre included in the "or whatever" clause. <357> In the description of the external space element, asamphuttam catuhi mahabhutehi <85.1> ("untouched by the four great primaries") should be understood as what is freed from the four great primaries begining with a break in a wall, a break in a doorway. By this is describe that space whereby, when doing preliminary work on it, fourfold or fivefold jhana arises. Cheers Ken O #99973 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:24 pm Subject: Aware and Composed... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Aware and Composed Dwelling: The Blessed Buddha once said: Monks, a Noble should dwell Aware and Composed This is our instruction to you! And how does a monk dwell Aware? Herein a friend dwells contemplating any body as a void frame only; as a transient, painful and impersonal neither-me-nor-mine appearance, while alert, ballanced and deliberately aware, thereby overcoming any mental dejection of reality, arised from coveting this world Exactly so does he dwell with regard to any feeling.. with regard to any mentality.. with regard to any phenomenon.. Only precisely so is this Noble One Acutely Aware! And how does a monk dwell Composed? Herein a friend dwells fully aware of all feelings, that arise.. fully aware of all feelings, that settles.. fully aware of all feelings, that ceases.. Such Noble One dwells fully aware of all thoughts, that arise.. fully aware of all thoughts, that remains.. fully aware of all thoughts, that stops.. Such clever one dwells fully aware of all perceptions, that arise.. fully aware of all perceptions, that persists.. fully aware of all perceptions, that ends.. Just so is this Noble One Calm, Cool and Composed! Any disciple should dwell Aware and Composed. This is our instruction to you Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Aware and Composed... #99974 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ten or Eleven? nilovg Dear Han, Sarah, and all. Op 12-aug-2009, om 13:20 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: [Apart from Milindapa~nha, do you know any sutta, in which aakaasa is recognized as asankhata dhamma or an unconditioned dhamma? If you know, can you kindly quote the sutta, please?] > I will be more grateful if you would kindly answer the question > that I had asked Sarah. ----- N: I was reminding myself when I wrote the last post to you, thinking aloud. Also what I will write now is not especially directed to you, Han. Writing helps me to gain a little more understanding, just a little more. Reading different texts, pondering over different possibilitis concerning aakaasa I came to the conclusion that it is best for me to try to understand the mainpoint that is made in the Mahaaraahulovadasutta and other suttas and leave aside those things I cannot solve myself. The main point: we should develop understanding to eventually penetrate anattaa, I think. Ken O also dropped me a good reminder not to lose the goal out of sight. Your question to Sarah I am unable to answer, I do not know any such sutta. As to pariccheda ruupa, I understood that this kind of space can be directly known when stages of insight are developed. This is already difficult enough. Only then will we have some idea of what space means. Now we are just talking about it. When we do not even know what conditioned space is, how could we imagine what unconditioned space would be? The text of Milindapanha has been very much respected in olden times. It is full of similes and for us now it is difficult to always find out: when is Ven. Nagasena talking in a figurative way, and when in a literal way. As to numbers again, perhaps two numbers are counted as one. I am sure it is not sloppiness. For instance, are (i) na jaayati, and (v) na uppajjati not the same, but different in wording? In the Co to the Sangiitisutta there are also different ways of counting. When the chapter is about Fours, only four items are mentioned, although there is a fifth. Like: four powers instead of five: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (26-27) sutta 26. Walshe DN 33.1.11(26) 'Four powers: *1069 energy, mindfulness, concentration, wisdom. (Cattaari balaani - viiriyabala.m, satibala.m, samaadhibala.m, pa~n~naabala.m.) (Omitting 'faith' as the first of this group, normally of five.) ------- Just an example that we should not mind numbers too much. ----- Nina. #99975 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:54 pm Subject: Re: Ten or Eleven? hantun1 Dear Nina (Sarah, Chew), Nina: > The main point: we should develop understanding to eventually penetrate anattaa, I think. Ken O also dropped me a good reminder not to lose the goal out of sight. > Your question to Sarah I am unable to answer, I do not know any such sutta. > When we do not even know what conditioned space [pariccheda ruupa] is, how could we imagine what unconditioned space would be? > As to numbers again, perhaps two numbers are counted as one. I am sure it is not sloppiness. For instance, are (i) na jaayati, and (v) na uppajjati not the same, but different in wording? > Just an example that we should not mind numbers too much. -------------------- Han: I, once again, am very grateful to you for your patience with me and for your valuable comments. No, I am not forgetting the main point and the goal. What made me uneasy was the classification of aakaasa as an unconditioned dhamma, as the same status as Nibbaana. You, yourself had said: [I still find it strange to say: there are five paramattha dhammas, three, citta, cetasika and rupa are conditioned, and two are unconditioned: nibbaana and open space. Message #99950] In this respect, I have the same idea as Chew, when he said: [So, in the ultimate sense, Nibbaana is the only unconditioned dhamma. And the remaining are only conditioned dhamma, which are citta, cetasika, and ruupa. Message #99821] Anyway, I will forget about it. I will not write about it any more. Instead, I will take your advice not to forget the main point and the goal. Thank you very much, once again. Respectfully, Han #99976 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:06 pm Subject: Blocked and Blinded! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The 5 Mental Hindrances Causes Ignorance! On the vulture’s peak hill, prince Abhaya once asked the Blessed Buddha: Sir, what is the Causes of not seeing, not knowing, & not Understanding? The All-Seeing Blessed One responded: At such time, prince, when one remains with a mind possessed and overwhelmed by sensual desire, and one does not know any way to escape this sensual lust, that has arisen - this condition itself, prince, is the cause of not seeing, and of not knowing. Therefore, not seeing, and not knowing have indeed a specific cause, and is indeed conditioned by an essential prerequisite. [Such as desire for sensing] Then again, prince, when one remains with a mind possessed and overwhelmed by ill will, and does not know any way to escape or still this anger, that has arisen, then this exact condition itself is the cause of not seeing, and of not knowing. Therefore, not seeing, and not knowing have indeed a specific cause, and is indeed conditioned by a necessary requirement. [Such as hate, ill will, anger, and irritation] Then again, prince, when one remains with a mind possessed and overwhelmed by lethargy and laziness, and does not know any way to escape such apathy & dullness, then this exact condition itself is the cause of not seeing, and of not knowing. Therefore, not seeing, and not knowing have indeed a specific cause, and is created by an indispensable requirement. [Such as apathy, dullness, sloth, torpor & laziness] Then again, prince, when one remains with a mind possessed and overwhelmed by restlessness and regret, and does not know any way to escape this restlessness and anxious remorse, then this exact condition itself, is the cause of not seeing, and of not knowing. Therefore, not seeing, not knowing have indeed a cause, & is conditioned by a specific crucial necessity. [Such as restlessness and regret] Then again, prince, when one remains with a mind possessed and overwhelmed by uncertainty, doubt and confusion and does not know any way to escape this doubt, uncertainty, and confusion, then this very condition, is the cause of not seeing, and of not knowing.Therefore, not seeing, not knowing have a cause, and is created by a causal requirement... [Such as uncertainty and skeptical doubt] What, Sir, is this method of teaching called? These, prince, are called: The Hindrances...! Comment: Ignorance is not seeing and not knowing the 4 Noble Truths! <...> Source: Samyutta Nikaya – The Grouped Sayings V, Mahavagga. Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri <...> #99978 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. sarahprocter... Dear Han, Ken O & all, Apologies again for delayed replies. Thanks, Han & Ken O, for your patience, investigation and searches too. --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, han tun wrote: > Apart from Milindapa~nha, do you know any sutta, in which aakaasa is recognized as asankhata dhamma or an unconditioned dhamma? If you know, can you kindly quote the sutta, please? ..... S: I don't know of any sutta where this is expressly said. However, I think, as usual, it comes down to how we read and interpret details in the suttas and even in the Abhidhamma commentaries. Let me repeat what I wrote before (#88904) which I considered carefully and checked most the details (over a long period) with A.Sujin before writing. I can only say it's my understanding to date on a very difficult area: >b) Open Space aakaasa ruupa ............ ......... ......... ......... ...... The second kind or manifestation (or characteristic) of aakaasa ruupa is the bigger space as evident in cavities, the sky, in vacuums, in the mouth or earand so on. Here the aakaasa ruupa does not delimit kalaapas and it doesn't depend on such kalaapas. So in this case, the definition and characteristic is different. The Atthasaalini [9], describes the aakaasa ruupa as a) having the characteristic (lakkhana) of "delimiting material objects" and the function (rasa) of "showing the boundaries ". In addition to the manifestation of "showing their limits" (as discussed above), it also refers to b) the "state of being untouched by the four great elements and of being their holes and openings as manifestation, the separated objects as proximate cause (padatthana) . It is that of which in the separated groups we say 'this is above, this is below, this is across' ". So this is another manifestation of 'untouchedness' , the holes, gaps and apertures. It says that by "untouched by the four great elements" what is meant is "the unentangled space-element untouched by these is stated, such as in a vacuum (vivara) or hole or the sky. It defines space as that "which is not 'scratched, not scratched off, which is not possible to scratch, cut, or break. Wherever there is 'no obstacle', that is space." In other words, where there are no mahaabhuuta (primary) elements existing, this kind of aakaasa ruupa has to be manifesting and this is how we can walk in and out of spaces, swallow food and so on. In this case the aakaasa ruupa is not conditioned by kamma, citta, temperature or nutriment. It is the unconditioned aakaasa. Even when the kalaapas don't arise and fall away, there is still this aakaasa dhaatu, the asankhata (unconditioned) aakaasa ruupa. When the Buddha refers to the empty space of holes and openings as in auditory and nasal orifices, the mouth, as above in the Mahaaraahulavaada Sutta [10] or in the Dhatuuvibhanga Sutta (quoted below) [11], it is to this manifestation of aakaasa ruupa that he is referring. It makes it possible to swallow food, hear and so on. It also makes it possible to walk into or out of a space. In a vacuum, again as there are no mahaabhuuta rupas, there is this second kind of aakaasa ruupa: "Bhikkhu, what is the element of space? There is internal and external space element. What is internal space element? The internal spaces in the form of space in the ear lobes, nostrils, open space from the mouth, where anything enjoyed, drunk, eaten and tasted is stored, and the space through which it is turned out or any other internal, space that is one's own. Bhikkhu, this is internal space element. The internal and external space, is the space element. This is not me. I'm not in it. It's not self. This should be seen with right wisdom, as it really is and the mind should be nipped and detached from the space element." The Buddha uses concepts and conventional language to refer to the space of the auditory orifices and the other holes and openings of the body. Space in the ear is one of the conditions for hearing. it is only rupa element, but we take it for our body all the time. The same with outer space, it is ruupa element, not some 'thing'.< ***** S: I think it's very helpful to understand about any dhammaa that we're used to taking for Self and my body. However, as Ken O said to Nina, definitely not worth being disturbed about, definitely not worth losing sleep over! I started to write about it simply because I didn't agree with comments on this subject matter that others were writing and repeating. I'm sure most people won't agree with my comments either:-). Metta Sarah ========== #99979 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) sarahprocter... Dear pt, --- On Mon, 10/8/09, ptaus1 wrote: >pt: I was wondering if there is any literature in Theravada that has more detailed explanations about different kinds of winds? ..... S: As quoted by Ven Samahita #57600: >The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, even as many winds blow turbulent in the sky, from all the directions of east, west, south, & north, both dusty and dustless winds, both cold & hot winds, both mild & forceful winds, even so do also all the many various feelings arise in this body: Both pleasant feelings, painful feelings and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feelings perpetually emerge and perturb the mind... Just as many diverse winds, Storms here and there across the sky, So in this very body: The manifold kinds of feelings arise, Both pleasant ones and painful ones, And those neither painful nor pleasant. Yet when a determined bhikkhu does not neglect aware and clear comprehension; Then such intelligent one fully understands Feelings and all their complex aspects... Having fully understood feelings, he is freed of all mental fermentation even in this very life... Remaining in this state, at the body's breakup, Such Expert-Master cannot ever be imagined... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [219] section 36: On Feeling: Vedana. The Sky: Akasam. 12. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html< .... Metta Sarah ========= #99980 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) sarahprocter... Hi pt, --- On Mon, 10/8/09, ptaus1 wrote: >pt: I was wondering if there is any literature in Theravada that has more detailed explanations about different kinds of winds? I recall the Buddha sometimes commenting in the suttas that his winds got disturbed by certain practices, but never in much detail. .... S: This further detail from a discussion in #66779 may also be relevant: ***** >M: these are the passages i found clarifying that vedana indicates > sensations on the body. One of my favourite suttas. ... S: Excellent passages to look at. For now, I'm just keeping the most relevant line to your comment (in Pali and just a little more in English): <...> > Tathevimasmim kayasmim, samuppajjanti vedana; > sukhadukkhasamuppatti, adukkhamasukha ca ya. ... > (samyutta nikaya 2.4.260) > > Through the sky blow many different winds,from east and west, from north > and south,dust-laden and dustless, cold as well as hot,fierce gales and > gentle breezes-many winds blow. In the same way, in this body, > sensations arise, pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral. <...> .... S: BB gives a similar translation for the last line(SN 36:12, 'The Sky'): "So in this very body here Various kinds of feelings arise, Pleasant ones and painful ones, And those neither painful nor pleasant." *** S: In this body is a translation of kaayasmin. Kaaya means literally 'heap' or 'accumulation', often translated as 'group' or 'body'. As the Nyantiloka dictionary (under kaaya) indicates, it "may either refer to the physical body (ruupa-kaaya) or to the mental body (naama-kaaya). In the latter case it is either a collective name for for the mental groups (feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness; s.khandha), or merely for feeling, perception and a few of the mental formations (s. naama). In this context, kaaya is referring to naama-kaaya, the 'mental body', to all feelings which may arise. If it were only referring to bodily feelings (also mental, also naama), then the neutral feelings would not be included.< ***** Metta Sarah ======== #99981 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:39 am Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. sukinderpal Hi Sarah and Ken H, I wanted to respond to a previous post but decided to read more of your exchange to see if I will then understand clearly what you both are saying. Ken's statements are usually very deep and subtle, so I'll just give my impressions as of now and ask some questions. ============ Sarah: > So we discuss and share the benefit of metta or generosity (as emphasised by the Buddha too) and let others appreciate and develop according to the level of understanding. As Nina said, "we cannot fathom the Buddha's wisdom when he preached this or that sutta." What we do know is that satipatthana was always implied, even if not expressly mentioned in each sutta, as you stress. One path.... > > As I said, I think it's more a quibble over words than any disagreement, but let's keep talking as it's about your only thread alive:-)) Suk: I understand Ken to agree on the importance of encouraging all kinds of kusala. But since there is the danger on the part of the audience to take kusala for 'self', the Buddha would have taken care not to encourage self view while teaching dana, sila or samatha bhavana. My question is, do we need to assume this to be the case every time that the value of those other forms of kusala is shown? True, that without the Buddha teaching about anatta and conditionality, one will *not* have Right Understanding of the level of vipassana with regard to sila etc. But sila is sila and dana is dana, and samatha bhavana can even develop till Jhana, where 'self view' though not dealt with and lying dormant in the citta, is not however manifest. Can we not also then assume that when the Buddha taught other forms of kusala like dana and sila to someone who may not have been ready for Anatta and conditionality, self view didn't necessarily come in and that at a later time they might have been taught anatta and were ready to grasp that? So I think that I agree with Sarah, but not sure about Ken. But then I possibly don't really understand either of you..? ;-) Metta, Sukin #99982 From: han tun Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] space, continued. Part 2. hantun1 Dear Sarah, > S: I don't know of any sutta where this is expressly said. However, I think, as usual, it comes down to how we read and interpret details in the suttas and even in the Abhidhamma commentaries. Let me repeat what I wrote before (#88904) which I considered carefully and checked most the details (over a long period) with A.Sujin before writing. I can only say it's my understanding to date on a very difficult area: >b) Open Space aakaasa ruupa Han: Thank you very much for letting me know that you do not know of any sutta where this is expressly said. I also thank you for repeating what you wrote before (#88904). I will take time and study it. -------------------- S: I think it's very helpful to understand about any dhammaa that we're used to taking for Self and my body. However, as Ken O said to Nina, definitely not worth being disturbed about, definitely not worth losing sleep over! I started to write about it simply because I didn't agree with comments on this subject matter that others were writing and repeating. I'm sure most people won't agree with my comments either:-). Han: Dear Sarah, as I said before, it is not important whether others agree with you or not. As you said above, it always comes down to how we read and interpret what is there in the books. I may not agree with the views of others, but who am I to say I agree or not agree? I am still a puthujjana, with my mind tainted with all sorts of defilements and biases. But it is the sharing of knowledge that matters. I take whatever is useful for me from the writings of others. I always think positively. Respectfully, Han #99983 From: "maitreyi144" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipatthan Table maitreyi144 Dear all, As someone said, it would be very difficult to have table for posting. My main purpose for preparing the table was helping my memory to remember the all-encompassing mindfulness. For me, at times i forget to be mindful for Kayanusati and other time vedanaa-sati or cita or dhamma etc. etc. By having this comprehensive table, it has helped me a lot and one can expand the all-encompassing awareness. It was for personal use for reminder. I don't think that such a table can be a point of discussion. It is more like a memeory jogger tool than anything else. Hope this clarification helps. In Dharma, ~Maitreyi --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > I was experimenting how it would look if the tables were to be presented in serial. > I am not going to add anything. > Even that, I have abandoned completely as Nina said the tables would be of no use. > I had already deleted the whole thing from my computer. <...> #99984 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:08 am Subject: Re: What is tension in abhidhamma terms? kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi all, > > I'd like to ask what would be the explanation of tension in abhidhamma terms? Here are some of my thoughts about it, please correct me if I'm wrong. > > 1. For me so far, the easiest way to distinguish between kusala and akusala is to notice if there's any tension (tensing up) involved at the moment - all akusala states usually seem to produce, or are associated with, a lot of tension. <. . .> --------------- Hi pt. The practice you describe here seems to be one of looking, rather than one of understanding. I don't believe looking plays any role in satipatthana. Other parts of your post, however, are concerned with learning and discussing Abhidhamma, and that definitely does play a role in satipatthana. It happens to us all. As soon as we are wanting to have less akusala and more kusala (etc) we need to be reminded there are only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. They are arising and falling away - rolling on regardless. Ken H #99985 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is tension in abhidhamma terms? ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. I'll split my response in two parts – answering your questions here from a practical point of view, knowing you'll appreciate that more than theorising, and then in the next post I'll ask my further (theorising) questions. Nina: > What about citta rooted in lobha accompanied by happy feeling, or > indifferent feeling? pt: From what I could observe so far, there is definitely a lot of tension involved when lobha arises with pleasant feeling. If lobha is really strong, body can even tremble under tension. I first noticed this once when playing cards with my two little nephews. At one point I found myself thinking with lobha and pleasant feeling: "I really need this card now and I'm going to win the game!" And as awareness kicked in, I noticed how tense my body was (and how ridiculous it was wanting to win against two little kids). As soon as awareness kicked in, there was an immediate relaxation and kind of opening, especially in the stomach and head areas. But only for a second or so, because awareness disappeared just as quickly, and greed again came back with thoughts like "I want to win!". But as soon as that happened, there was an immediate tensing up in the body, and this now seemed to trigger awareness to come back, and with awareness again came relaxation. So this switching back and forth happened several more times, very fast, and that was the first time I think I actually experienced directly the anatta aspect of both kusala and akusala, they just kept arising and falling on their own. There is also a lot of tension involved when lobha arises with indifferent feeling. An easy example is if anyone is familiar with playing video games – suddenly you realize you've been playing the game for three hours longer than you intended to, even thought it really isn't fun anymore (no more pleasant feeling), the body is really tense (and your hands even hurt from gripping the gaming controller so tightly), but you just want to keep playing and can't stop. Incidentally, I also noticed this for the first time when I was babysitting my nephews, so the only conclusion I can make is that if you want really fast insight progress, forget about meditating in the forest, or satipatthana while washing the dishes – what you actually need is at least a couple of nephews ;-) Nina: > Or Citta rooted in ignorance, accompanied by > indifferent feeling? I do not think people would experience this as > stress. pt: I haven't experienced tension directly in regard to moha with indifferent feeling, but only by comparison. For example, when there's a transition from a moment with moha and indifferent feeling (like in an inert doubting state) into a moment of loving kindness, there's definitely a sudden relaxation, expansion (as opposed to constricted sensation of tension), particularly in the chest where suddenly a sort of a tiny speck goes supernova and starts to radiate kindness, accompanied with pleasant feeling, a smile and an open and calm mind. Even when there's a moment of awareness with indifferent feeling, it seems very different from moha with indifferent feeling - the head/mind doesn't feel constricted anymore and there's a kind of a smoothness in every moment that also translates into very "smooth" bodily movements. If I'm not mistaken, these would be the kusala cetasikas of pliancy and wieldiness, maybe lightness as well, and definitely calm cetasika. Nina: > I know that dukkha is translated by stress by some people, but as I > said above: what about moha, and lobha? We should not merely think of > dosa. pt: I'd say there's definitely conventional tension and stress involved in dukkha in connection with lobha, dosa and moha, but I don't think that's the whole story because kusala cittas and cetasikas are also conditioned and thus also dukkha if I'm not mistaken. Best wishes pt #99986 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is tension in abhidhamma terms? ptaus1 Dear Nina, (part 2) Regarding how tension is initiated: Nina: > Citta is one of the factors that > can produce ruupas. Dosa may, for example produce hardness. This is > body-intimation rupa only in the case of having the intention to > convey a meaning. There is not body intimation all the time. pt: Just to make sure I understand what you're saying - do you think there's anything else other than body intimation that translates into tension? The only other thing I can think of is the absence of kusala cetasikas of tranquillity, pliancy, wieldiness, etc, but that would be a more indirect cause. Other even more indirect causes would be when hardness is produced by temperature (like when it's cold, body goes very stiff and tense), nutrition (which causes a disturbance in the elements), illness (which does the same) and kamma. But I'm wondering what else from the citta domain can translate into tension other than body intimation? Nina: > Whatever is object for citta is object-condition, but this is not > the only condition for citta to experience an object. > Several conditions work together for the experience of a particular > object. Could you please say a little more about the second stage of tender insight – knowledge of discerning conditionality. At that stage - is one able to know directly all the conditions that are involved in the moment in the same way that one knows nama-rupa directly - for example knowing directly that there was exactly 9 out of 24 conditions working together to bring about the current citta? Or is it more like a generalized direct understanding that the current moment of citta itself is conditioned – for example knowing that seeing consciousness happened just now because attention came together with a visible object (and a working physical eye), i.e. one followed from the other? Thanks. Best wishes pt #99987 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your replies. It's interesting how winds are compared to different feelings and in particular to nama feeling as I would have thought body winds would have more to do with bodily feeling. You mentioned in one of the posts that you do tai chi, if I remember correctly. I was in a bookshop a few days ago, and in the section on tai chi (and Taoism) there are whole books dedicated to body winds (I think in Taoism terminology these are called meridians, or energy channels, or energy meridians, can't remember exactly). In Tibetan Buddhism section there's also a little bit about it (again in different terminology), though it seems it's not written about as freely as in Taoism. But in Theravada, there seems to be nothing about it, other than a few lines here and there. Judging by those 4 paragraphs in the Visuddhimagga that deal with winds, I was wondering if there might be some later commentarial work that delves into this topic a little deeper - I would assume that such work would probably deal with samatha meditation on the four elements, but I had no luck so far in finding any. Best wishes pt > S: BB gives a similar translation for the last line(SN 36:12, 'The Sky'): > > "So in this very body here > Various kinds of feelings arise, > Pleasant ones and painful ones, > And those neither painful nor pleasant." > *** > S: In this body is a translation of kaayasmin. > > Kaaya means literally 'heap' or 'accumulation', often translated as > 'group' or 'body'. As the Nyantiloka dictionary (under kaaya) indicates, > it "may either refer to the physical body (ruupa-kaaya) or to the mental > body (naama-kaaya). In the latter case it is either a collective name for > for the mental groups (feeling, perception, mental formations, > consciousness; s.khandha), or merely for feeling, perception and a few of > the mental formations (s. naama). > > In this context, kaaya is referring to naama-kaaya, the 'mental body', to > all feelings which may arise. If it were only referring to bodily feelings > (also mental, also naama), then the neutral feelings would not be > included.< > ***** > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== #99988 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:00 am Subject: Re: What is tension in abhidhamma terms? ptaus1 Hi Ken, You're probably right. I mean, a moment of satipatthana is rare, and when it happens, it's usually followed by a half an hour of theorising - trying to conceptually understand what just happened - "hmm, so what would that be in abhidhamma terms? But is that the same as what is said in the suttas? And was this satiapatthana at all, or just thinking about satipatthana?!" etc. Still, there seems to be at least one benefit to conceptual theorising insofar as when the next moment of satipatthana happens, there will be no need to theorise afterwards anymore, since it's been done already, and then I can just put a little thick next to that experience and just move on so to speak. Best wishes pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi pt. > > The practice you describe here seems to be one of looking, rather than > one of understanding. I don't believe looking plays any role in > satipatthana. > > Other parts of your post, however, are concerned with learning and > discussing Abhidhamma, and that definitely does play a role in > satipatthana. > > It happens to us all. As soon as we are wanting to have less akusala and > more kusala (etc) we need to be reminded there are only the presently > arisen conditioned dhammas. They are arising and falling away - rolling > on regardless. > > Ken H > #99989 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:30 am Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. kenhowardau Hi Sukin, Thanks for joining in the hair-splitting thread. I think we agree that knowing nama from rupa is more important than knowing kusala from akusala. (K Sujin has been quoted as saying that.) Being "more important" means coming first, doesn't it? So why would the Buddha have sometimes taught dana and sila first? Was it because some people were intellectually incapable of satipatthana? I am not convinced about that. Everyone can practice dana and sila (when the conditions are right) but can't everyone also have a theoretical understanding of nama and rupa? They just need to be told there are realities; some mental, others physical. That's not so hard. Ken H #99990 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] space, continued. Part 2. sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- On Thu, 13/8/09, han tun wrote: >Han: Thank you very much for letting me know that you do not know of any sutta where this is expressly said. I also thank you for repeating what you wrote before (#88904). I will take time and study it. ... S: You're welcome! ------------ -------- >Han: Dear Sarah, as I said before, it is not important whether others agree with you or not. As you said above, it always comes down to how we read and interpret what is there in the books. I may not agree with the views of others, but who am I to say I agree or not agree? I am still a puthujjana, with my mind tainted with all sorts of defilements and biases. But it is the sharing of knowledge that matters. I take whatever is useful for me from the writings of others. I always think positively. ... S: Very good - we completely agree here in that I could have written the same...:-)) Metta Sarah ========== #99991 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) sarahprocter... Dear pt, --- On Thu, 13/8/09, ptaus1 wrote: >Thanks for your replies. It's interesting how winds are compared to different feelings and in particular to nama feeling as I would have thought body winds would have more to do with bodily feeling. ... S: We need to remember that bodily feeling is also nama. It refers to the vedana accompanying body consciousness (nama also) which merely experiences the tangible object with either pleasant or unpleasant feeling. In other words, although we refer to it as 'bodily feeling', it is still a 'mental' or nama feeling. ... >You mentioned in one of the posts that you do tai chi, if I remember correctly. I was in a bookshop a few days ago, and in the section on tai chi (and Taoism) there are whole books dedicated to body winds (I think in Taoism terminology these are called meridians, or energy channels, or energy meridians, can't remember exactly). In Tibetan Buddhism section there's also a little bit about it (again in different terminology) , though it seems it's not written about as freely as in Taoism. But in Theravada, there seems to be nothing about it, other than a few lines here and there. .... S: Yes, like you, I have interests in tai chi, acupuncture, ayurveda and so on - after all, I've lived in Hong Kong for over 25yrs! As you said in another message, the Buddha's physician, Jivaka, practised ayurveda and I remember reading once about the extraordinary brain surgery work that could be performed even at this time. However, it's not a part of the Buddha's teachings in that the goal of good health is not the same as the goal of understanding the Four Noble Truths. Sometimes we have to remember what is most important in life - not good health, but good understanding! We know from our Buddhist studies that there are four causes of rupas in the body - citta, kamma, temperature and nutriment. So medicine and meridian work can assist or be a condition for the health of rupas, but we never know what past kamma has been accumulated. How about you, pt, you seem to have quite an interest in this area too? I've been doing a little Tai chi on the beach in the mornings here. This morning there was a young whale in the surf as well - lovely! .... >Judging by those 4 paragraphs in the Visuddhimagga that deal with winds, I was wondering if there might be some later commentarial work that delves into this topic a little deeper - I would assume that such work would probably deal with samatha meditation on the four elements, but I had no luck so far in finding any. ... S: You might like to check out these messages (mostly Nina's translation of the commentary)on the Sivaka Sutta: >Sivaka Sutta, SN36 11193, 13094, 64421, 64622, 85703 With regard to the four elements, I think the main point to remember is that what is experienced through the body-sense is only hardness, temperature and motion. (Water/cohesion is only experienced through the mind-door). So when there is understanding of hardness or temperature as appearing now, there's no thought of winds, meridiens, channels or anything else. Just the pathavi or tejo rupa appearing for a moment and then gone. We take all these rupas for our body or ourself all the time - reflecting wisely now is samatha meditation on the elements. The citta at such a moment is calm. I'd be very happy to continue this discussion with you. Let me know your further thoughts. Metta Sarah ======= #99992 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma friends sarahprocter... Hi Azita & Ken O, --- On Mon, 10/8/09, gazita2002 wrote: >Really tho, there is death at every moment as citta arises and falls away and thats just what it will be like at death moment - one citta falling away followed by another one - in any realm. I guess this is the scarey thing because we are attached to 'this' body and dont know what the next one will be. .... S: Yes, one citta at a time. I think that as soon as we start to think about 'this body' and wonder about the 'next body', we're back in the idea of 'wholes' and 'selves' and it's this attachment and view which leads to the fear. Of course, it's bound to be like that....but we can begin to see how it all revolves around "Me, me, me"! .... >may we all develop wisdom and understanding to know the reality of life to help ourselves and others. ... S: Yes, it is the understanding that counts and we can see that this is the way we help others too, if conditions are there... Metta Sarah ======== #99993 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:16 am Subject: Re: Not Posted: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Mike: Hindrances and jhaana.] sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Sat, 8/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S:...So are you suggesting: 1) one jhana citta can have different objects during the duration of that citta? In this case, infinite space and then cetasika a), cetasika b), cetasika c) and so on ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- H:> I'm not necessarily assuming that during what we call "experiencing a jhana," all the mind states are "jhana cittas". There may be non-jhanic states, conditioned by jhana factors, interspersed during which various cetasikas are the objects of consciousness. But that technicality aside, yes, "...infinite space and then cetasika a), cetasika b), cetasika c) and so on." ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - S: So technically, you're agreeing that these are not all jhana cittas and that the mental factors may be experienced by "non-jhanic cittas". You're saying that what conventionally is referred to as "experiencing a jhana" may actually refer to different kinds of cittas. That's fine. ... ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------ H:>>Well, I've explained above what I mean. It is clear to me that what Sariputta describes as going on while "in a jhana" includes investigation of various namas and namic qualities in effect. He doesn't go into Abhidhammic detail as to citta types in that teaching. How do YOU understand what he said? ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------ S: As I explained at length, referring to the commentary notes, I believe that in the texts, jhana always refers specifically to jhana cittas which have a specific jhana object. The understanding of the jhana factors involved occurs during the reviewing process which immediately succeeds the jhana cittas. ... >>S:Let's leave the sutta aside at this point and discuss how jhana cittas function and what the object of jhana cittas are. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------- H:> No, let's not. Let's discuss what Sariputta actually said! :-) ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- S: I thought we had at length - only exceeded recently by the length of the 'Intermediate States' and 'Space' threads, lol:-)) I hope you enjoyed your family visit! Metta Sarah ======== #99994 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:28 am Subject: Re: Not Posted: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Mike: Hindrances and jhaana.] sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Sat, 8/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---- >>S: By "switching away from jhana and back", do you therefore mean: a) jhana cittas which take objects of samatha, such as kasina, interspersed by kamavacara cittas ("ordinary" cittas) which 'review' and which take various namas, such as the recent jhana cittas and associated mental factors as objects b) something else. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---- H:> I'm suggesting as possible a very rapid switching from jhana cittas to non-jhanic and back again as regards the 1st 7 jhanas, all while conventionally "in the midst of a jhana" as opposed to fully emerging from a jhana and then reviewing. ... S: As I understand the texts, after the jhana cittas have fallen away, they are always succeeded by reviewing consciousness (paccavekana cittas) which reviews the citta and mental factors involved etc. Of course, this can be very rapidly succeeded by subsequent jhana cittas for those 'skilled'. The point was merely that the jhana factors are not the objects of the jhana cittas themselves. ... >The sutta certainly distinguishes emerging from the 8th & 9th jhanas to then investigate from the investigation of qualities "during" the first 7 jhanas one by one as they occurred (as expressed in the sutta). I find the sutta crystal clear in this respect, and I don't see how or why that clarity should be ignored. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----- S: I think the difference (between the emerging from these jhanas and the earlier ones) was clarified by the comment that only a Buddha could directly experience these states on account of their sublety. It is a difficult and interesting point/sutta. ... >>S:Surely one citta only has one object? ------------ --------- --------- --------- - H:> I do believe that there is ever only one object of consciousness at any time. ------------ --------- --------- --------- - >S: OK, agreed here... ... .... S: Perhaps this was the important point and as to whether we're discussing 'technical' or 'conventional' jhana doesn't really matter. Perhaps we've exhausted this one for now, Howard? Thanks for clafifying your thoughts.... it's been helpful. Metta Sarah ======= #99995 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Howard, last one for now:) --- On Sat, 8/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- >>H:> Sarah, let's be frank: You don't want to meditate, and, incredibly IMO, you don't consider it part of the Dhamma. That's fine. To each his/her own. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- >>S: As discussed ad nauseum, I've never said that 'meditation' , ie bhaavanaa is not "part of the Dhamma". However, we define 'meditation' in different ways. The funny thing is, that probably if you were to track my life for a day, you'd say I "do a lot of meditation" as you understand it, starting with my relaxating yoga with breathing exercises, my gentle tai chi, walking along the beach, the evening restorative heart exercises and so on.... ------------ --------- --------- --------- - H:> Gosh, Sarah, did the Buddha ever teach that? ;-)) .... S: ;-) I know you're only joking, Howard, but my point was/is that the Buddha didn't teach bhaavanaa/meditation as being relaxing yoga, tai chi, mantra chanting, concentration on the breath as on modern retreats, shopping, washing, going to work or any other *activity*. Bhaavanaa, an in particular satipa.t.thaana, refers to the development of understanding, to mental development whilst going about one's daily life. After all, it can only ever be the understanding and awareness at the present moment. ------------ --------- --------- --------- >>S:But for me, these are just more 'situations' in the day, along with washing dishes, cooking, shoppping, internet work, Dhamma study and so on. There can be "meditation" anytime during any of these activities. I don't differentiate between them as far as the arising of sati-sampajanna is concerned. ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- H:> I think as regards cultivation of the mind, you SHOULD distinguish. The Buddha did. ... S: Certainly not with regard to the development of satipa.t.thaana. Even in the development of samatha, many objects are suitable in daily life, *if* and that's a *BIG IF*, there is the understanding on how the wise reflection can bring calm very naturally - not by a trying to have calm. ... H:>Jhana is NOT entered while "washing dishes, cooking, shoppping, internet work, Dhamma study and so on." ... S: Agreed. However I think it's wrong to be seeking to attain jhana. I think this is a hindrance to development understanding present dhammaa with detachment now. ... >What MAY happen at these times is the arising of insight and even awakening, due to prior cultivation, especially via jhana attainment. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - S: Again, I don't think we need to be seeking awakening - just understanding of what is conditioned now. One moment at a time. Yes, I agree that insight can occur any time due to prior cultivation and without expectation. Metta Sarah ======== #99996 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:33 am Subject: Re: why Sujin recommends dry insight jonoabb Hi Robert (99846) > =============== > Why does Sujin emphasize dry insight rather than the path of the jhana labhi (who is skilled in both jhana and vipassana). After all the sukkavipasska is the lowest path, why not aim for the highest way? > Basically it is because she believes that at this time it is the only viable way. > =============== I suppose it's a matter of nuance, but I don't understand A. Sujin to be suggesting that one path or the other be chosen. I think her point is that the development of awareness/insight is something that can potentially happen at any time and in any circumstances, regardless of the level to which it, or samatha, has previously been developed. =============== > She takes pains to explain the very diferent paths of samatha and viapssana. For some types of samatha one must be in solitude , must be in special upright posture. But most importantly one must really understand what is kusala and akusal and at highly refined levels otherwise one will merely develop subtle pleasant feeling lobha (attachment) and mistake that for samatha. > But vipassana is more suble than samatha and is not posture dependent, it is all about understanding of the moment. =============== I agree with most of this, but would question whether samatha is posture dependent in any sense. What are the types of samatha that require physical solitude and special upright posture, as you see it? Jon #99997 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam jonoabb Hi KenO (99934) > =============== > Now on the Right Understanding comes first then Right Concentration matter. Also depending how we see it. If we look at it lokkuttaracitta, we could say they come together, in fact all eight together. If we speak strictly on what to develop first then IMHO, it is understanding then concentration. I am basing on Right view as the forerunner MN117. The Great Forty (BB) > =============== I agree that right view is the forerunner, but I don't think this means that understanding is to be developed first and then concentration. In terms of the development of vipassana and samatha, there is no need to make any choice. (Always happy to see a fellow dinosaur back again;-)) Jon #99998 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. jonoabb Hi Sarah, Chew, Nina, Han and others > =============== > S: "The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter. Its function is to indicate the boundaries of matter. It is manifested as the confines of matter; or its manifestation consists in being untouched (by the 4 great elements), and in holes and apertures. Its proximate cause is the matter delimited. It is on account of the space element that one can say of material things delimited that 'this is above. below, around that' " > (Vis.M. XIV, 63).\ > =============== Of the foregoing, I would say that the expression "and in holes and apertures" relates particularly to so-called 'open space', while the rest relates to both pariccheda rupa and open space. What do you think? Jon #99999 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. jonoabb Hi Nina (and Sarah, Han and Chew) (99950) > =============== > > One cannot find an unconditioned dhamma in the sa.msaara. Nibbaana > > is only the object of the lokuttaracitta. Even the lokuttaracitta > > itselves are also conditioned dhamma, they arise and cease. In the > > ultimate sense, concept does not exist. So, in the ultimate sense, > > Nibbaana is the only unconditioned dhamma. And the remaining are > > only conditioned dhamma, which are citta, cetasika, and ruupa. > > .... > > S: I would have said the same a while back and Nina was suggesting > > the same when we were in Bkk, but I think we have to consider the > > two manifestations of aakaasa ruupa more carefully. > ------- > N: I still find it strange to say: there are five paramattha dhammas, > three, citta, cetasika and rupa are conditioned, and two are > unconditioned: nibbaana and open space. > =============== I think still only 4 paramattha dhammas, since open space comes under the dhamma of rupa. It's possible that "unconditioned" in this context has a different meaning than in the context of nibbana. In any event, there are other instances of obscure exceptions to well-known general rules, such as the rupas that do not have a specific characteristic (being an exception to the general rule that dhammas are those things which bear their own characteristic). Jon