#100600 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:14 am Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. sukinderpal Hi Ken, (Phil, Lukas and Mike N), =========== > I am fascinated to know more about your 600 music downloads, but how can > we keep it on-topic? Better not push our luck! :-) Suk: And now it's over 800, and you won't want to hear about this anymore except if it reminds you about the Honey ball Sutta. ;-) ============== > <. . .> > S: > With your overpowering influence however, ;-) now I factor in kamma, the kind > which caused people of the Buddha's time to come to hear him, that this must be > due to having heard the Dhamma in previous lives if not also meeting previous > Buddha's. As a result I'm leaning closer to your position now. ;-) > ------------- Ken: > Yes, well, the conversation and quibbling over words did take us on some > unexpected side issues. It all began with something I had always assumed > to be part of the accepted "DSG party line." I had always assumed that > you and others were saying, 'Whatever the present object of > consciousness is, we (as Dhamma students) should understand it in terms > of satipatthana.' Suk: You stress this more than anyone here and it's never enough. When someone like Phil, keeps insisting on a conventional interpretation of the Dhamma and stress `sila' the way he does, I sometimes wish it were that easy. Especially when considering the attachments which continue to keep me from taking any constructive step towards earning a living. Even calling myself a bum and accepting it is expression of such attachment it seems. What is clear is that at such instances, there is no right understanding of the present arammana. It is my opinion therefore, that even if Sila arose but there is no `knowing' of it, the moment is somewhat wasted as far as the development along the Path is concerned. When Lukas mentioned in one of his posts, the preciousness of `one moment of sila', this was in fact a statement about Right Understanding. Phil wrongly criticized him for what he thought was overlooking sila. But as you know, it wasn't. Lukas was stressing at the same time, the importance of both Sila and Right View, but Phil just couldn't appreciate it. One reason for this is I believe, not seeing the danger of "self view" and taking sila as `self' to the extent of being blinded by it. So I agree with you Ken, and appreciate that you keep reminding me about this. Moving in the conventional world without Right Understanding is moving in darkness and this includes when going by a conventional interpretation of the Dhamma the kind which most Buddhists do. In fact as I've pointed out before, in some cases it is better not to have heard the Dhamma. Take for example Tuna from Egypt, in one of Nina's present series. She is a Muslim and has no Right View. However, mention of other forms of kusala can act as natural decisive condition for kusala to arise at anytime. This as we know, is almost invariably followed by self view and also a wrong view which then refers to God etc. This is clearly akusala. But is this as bad as in the case of certain so called Buddhist who, though they do not refer to a God, however is driven by `self view' to subscribe a path which in fact is a wrong one? With Tuna, she remains within her religion, not going out to teach wrong dhamma in the name of the right one. Tuna's problem may be strong attachment to the religion she was born into, but Buddhist by birth or the born-again one is attached but he also *misinterprets* the Dhamma. Tuna may in a future lifetime get to hear and get it right, but the Buddhists I'm talking about are accumulating whatever akusala dhammas involved when misinterpreting the Dhamma, and so this is what they are taking with them into future lifetimes. When Lukas made his statement about sila, the impression I got was of someone developing `detachment'. When Phil came out to `advice' him, I saw much attachment in his remarks. Phil may have some understanding of the danger of sense contacts, but that's the same as peoples of other religions, including Christians. The Christian does not associate his practices with the Path, but Phil seems to do this, even if indirectly. And when he tries to justify his practices with the idea of being reborn into higher realms and not stuck like the blind turtle, he is actually having a wrong understanding about dhammas and anatta. The attachment to sense objects which he seeks to be rid off is now to the `idea' of good rebirth and it makes no difference even if he says that this is so that he then gets to hear the Dhamma. Phil points out that the Buddha mentioned many times, the fruit of good deeds including good rebirth. He takes this to be a prompt to think just as anyone would include Christians, "to do good deeds". I'm drawn to reason as I often do, that the Buddha's audience, for example Culapindaka, for whom the conditions for Right View did not arise immediately, these people however had *no* Wrong View arise to then misinterpret the Buddha's words, otherwise they would then surely have gone wrong. Even if Right Understanding of the Path didn't arise and instead other levels of kusala were appreciated, these latter would have been for their own sake! None of the listeners would have done kusala with the thought of going to heaven in mind! ================= Ken: > Mike N argued that the Buddha "taught" such things as oral hygiene. But > that doesn't change anything with regard to our present arammana, does > it? The same applies to sutta examples of people who were not ready for > satipatthana and were simply taught dana sila and samatha. That doesn't > change anything for us. > > Or does it? Suk: :-) No it does not. I'm sure Mike agrees with the conclusion. And could we say that to think otherwise is to entertain doubt and risk encouraging more ignorance? Better one moment of satipatthana in one lifetime which is like a light shining through the hole in an otherwise dark room, than think that one is making great progress in sila even when being seemingly humble about Right Understanding. The latter is just *dreaming about light* as far as I'm concerned. Can we conclude this discussion now…….? :-} Metta, Sukin #100601 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ken H and Jon, > Op 9-sep-2009, om 12:16 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > > > I don't see why the monk could not know both (a) the nature of a > > presently arising dhamma that is normally taken for (an aspect of) > > the conventional activity of walking, and (b) that he was walking > > as distinct from running or hopping, etc. (if he didn't know the > > latter, how could he observe sila?). > -------- > N: Ken, a monk is not allowed to run, hop, etc. He has to observe the > rules of the Vinaya. > It is necessary to also know concepts. We ordinary people usually > think with akusala citta about concepts, but not necessarily so all > the time. You probably know that arahats have four types of > mahaakiriyacittas with pa~n~naa and four without pa~n~naa? Also > arahats have cittas without satipatthaana, for example when greeting > others. They think of persons also without pa~n~naa. But never with > wrong view. > ------ Hi Nina, Thanks, but I wasn't really talking about whether monks were allowed to hop and run. I was trying to make a point about the vagueness of concepts. Ultimately there is no walking, hopping or running, so how can we say we "know" the difference? One monk may walk so quickly that he is almost running. Another (with an injured leg, perhaps) may limp so badly that he is almost hopping. There is no definite dividing line between one gait and another. I admit, however, that my views on concepts in general might go a little too far. Perhaps they border on heterodoxy. I am really not interested in the conventional (historical and scientific) accuracy of the Tipitaka. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if (for example) the Theras thought the world was flat - with heavens above and hell below. Only the dhammas are worth bothering about. Ken H #100602 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:56 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 5, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Question: What do you mean by defilements? Answer: These are unwholesome states of mind which are not beneficial. They cause harm to us or to others sooner or later. Hatred, for example, is an unskillful state of mind. When hatred arises we harm ourselves and others. At such moments there is no peace of mind. Q.: How do you harm yourself through hatred? A.: At those moments there is agitation and recklessness. When people become angry, they are inclined to do something they may regret later on. In traffic jams people get out of their cars and start beating up other people. Then you can see that there is recklessness and no calm. Q.: In history you can read that kings had rightful anger. Is there rightful anger? A.: Anger is always unwholesome, no matter what the cause is. It harms yourself and others. This does not mean that you cannot be firm with others when it is necessary for people's benefit, but hatred and anger are always unwholesome. At such moments you have no balance of mind, you are not sane. You cannot judge whether your actions are good or bad because you are in turmoil. When you are angry you are irrational. Question: Are there other defilements besides anger? Answer: There are many kinds of defilements. Three basic defilements are roots for unwholesome states of mind, namely: attachment, anger or aversion, and ignorance. Question: What about love, is that unwholesome or wholesome? Answer: We have to consider carefully what reality is represented by that word. Love can represent the reality which is kindness towards other people. It arises when we consider their welfare. However, love can also represent an unwholesome reality. When we are attached to a person we actually think of ourselves and that is an unwholesome reality. When we have to be separated from that person, attachment conditions aversion and displeasure. When unselfish loving-kindness arises you don't think of your own pleasure. ******* Nina. #100603 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:24 am Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sukinderpal" wrote: > > Hi None of the listeners would have done kusala with the thought of going to heaven in mind! > > Dear Sukin On many occasions in the texts people seem to consider going to heaven one of the rewards of right view and right deeds, and look forward to it. Robert #100604 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Element of space 7 of Y.Karunadasa sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Fri, 4/9/09, szmicio wrote: >I miss our old discussions on realities now. I miss your constant reminders on Non-Self, at this moment. ... S: :-) So what's the reality now whilst 'missing'? ... >Partly now I am involved in speculations about terms and start to forget the essence. Can you remind me about realities? This is the most beneficial to me. ... S: Yes, we're all led away from the present moment, the present reality all the time through lobha, dosa and moha. However, even at such moments of being led astray, or speculating and forgetting what appears now, there are still realities and these realities are all anatta. All gone already. There's always another moment, another reality appearing which can be known. ... >> S: The sabhava dhammas have characteristics which can be known directly. For the asabhava dhammas, this is not true. They can be known, but by whom? The sabhava dhammas have to be known first. > ... >L: This is important that asabhava ruupa can also be known. ... S: Only by very highly developed pa~n~naa. It doesn't have a characteristic, so doesn't appear ordinarily. Of course, the Buddha understood all dhammas, otherwise he couldn't have taught all the detail. (Who but a Buddha could have fathomed all the detail in the Abhidhamma??) ... >sabhava - with characteristic. And this characteristic is stressed so often by Acharn Sujin. It can be known. Can you say more on asabhava paramattha dhamma that is an object to pa~n~na? ... S: I thought you didn't wish to speculate, but wished to be reminded about realities that can be known now as non-self? :-)) The asabhava dhammas don't appear now, so won't be objects of pa~n~na now. We can just say they exist, like akasa rupa or bodily or verbal intimation. Conceptually, we can appreciate they must be there and read about the details, tha's all. ... >Do you see any difference between lakkhana and sabhava? ... S: In most contexts I see no difference, but I think that both terms are used in some contexts with different meanings (e.g. sabhava in Patisambhidamagga) or wider meanings. Metta Sarah ======= #100605 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding: c: "...How on earth could you speak of such things and speak of such things in a Theravadan forum? Everything you said is simply put in the MAZE which is called MADHYAMIKA OR MADHYAMAKA. You speak so easily of Shunyata that I can only consider that you are well versed in such elementary concepts." Scott: I don't think I'm well-versed in Shunyata, although I often think about anatta. I keep experimenting too, seeing if maybe I can control this or that. I don't seem to be able to, although sometimes I make a plan and it seems to turn out. I mean, lots of random things always happen. c: "darn, you went so well through the post but at the end you had to commit yourself to CRAVING: ' I still seem to want to live '" Scott: Not a deliberate commitment, just where I'm at. I can't really say that I'm alive because I want to be. I guess I could take my life but then we'd have to start splitting hairs. c: "Death does not equal Life. You are stuck in that damned Western philosophy of a Heaven and a Hell. 'IMAGINE there's no heaven. I wonder if you can.' John Lennon let go of that damned VALUE STRUCTURE and the only vindication that RUPA actually exists. RUPA HAS NO SVABHAVA. RUPA HAS NO ULTIMATE TRUTH. LET IT GO." Scott: I think we understand the notions of 'existence' and 'characteristic' differently. c: "Scott, ah, you speak of the Bourgeoisa family...What child in American middle class suburbia does not dream of IMMORALITY AND IMMORAL ACTS each and every night? AFterall, when they wake up and are sent to the programming schedule at the manufacturing facility the CORPORATION DICTATES TO THEM WHAT MORALITY IS AND WHAT MORALITY IS NOT so they have no worry about what they dream, no?" Scott: "...Welcome my son Welcome to the machine What did you dream? It's alright we told you what to dream..." Pink Floyd, The Machine. Sincerely, Scott. #100606 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Hi Chris & all, --- On Sat, 5/9/09, christine_forsyth wrote: >Thanks Sarah but I don't think they'd join a strange list just to plough through untold posts in very numerous threads in an attempt to glean something that no-one in this thread so far has been able to show - that the Abhidhamma was mentioned in the Suttas by the Buddha and was not simply a later teaching after his passing. ... S: I think as others have suggested, it just depends on one's interest and what 'rings a bell'. When I started reading and listening to the details of the Abhidhamma, such as about seing and visible object and other dhammas as being 'the all' at this moment, it seemed so 'right', it could be proved in a way that nothing else I'd heard and read ever had. Furthermore, it brought clarity to the suttas - clearly they too were about impersonal dhammas. So I wouldn't have cared who'd said it or taught it and was never interested until these recent discussions in the history of the Abhidhamma. So clearly, what was taught was by someone with the most extraordinary insight into life at this moment. I think that as the teachings of dhammas as anatta make more and more sense, one has more and more confidence in what is taught in the entire Tipitaka, but nothing has to be accepted by hearsay! .... >Surprisingly - after all these years of thinking it was, and having visited Sankasia in India, I am now leaning towards the fact that the Abhidhamma was a later teaching by disciples generations after the Buddha -and that there seems to be no real evidence to the contrary. ... S: As pt suggested, you can both read the same past posts on this issue and come to different conclusions. But how does it help either way with the understanding of what appears now? What is the reality now whilst wondering and having doubts about who taught what? ... > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---Life is only as long as an outbreath .. if you don't breathe in again--- ... S: Just the point! Life is short, very, very short - just this moment. So is there any awareness now? Metta Sarah ======== #100607 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:42 am Subject: Re: "No Time" by the Guess Who scottduncan2 Good Morning colette, Regarding: c: "...Scott, you spoke of DESIRE quite frequently. Ah, this thing called DESIRE is such a subtle and almost imperceptible aspect yet it EXISTS. While we in the Western society can dispose of this thing called DESIRE so easily by refering to such people as Carl Gustav Jung and such drug dependents as Sigmund Frued, Zurich School and Vienna School, RESPECTIVELY, we find that desire is nothing more than a bauble or trinket." Scott: If ruupa has no characteristic, as you state earlier, how can you now say that desire DOES? I mean I see ruupa as having a characteristic hence I see that desire must as well. c: "lets see if this Abhidharma has any juice left in it after all these millenias of running on 'auto pilot'. Take the concept of DESIRE and ALL OF I T'S DEFINITIONS...Here I have already established that 'desire' IS and is 'being' but since it exists, WELL THEN, it is no longer a Nama. Desire is a RUPA..." Scott: Well, this goes a bit far for me, colette - I mean theoretically. Are you suggesting that ruupa changes into naama and vice-versa? c: "...RUPA, as we all know, is a substance which can be injected into the veins, the hydraulic system, of a human and thus satiate, satisfy, pacify, even EXHALT, the robotic recipient. The object is external. Is it really true that the subject, 'individual', wants and needs this drug called 'DESIRE' injected into their veins, hydraulic system, in order to function? LETS FIND OUT." Scott: I think desire is naama, not ruupa. Is ruupa the object of desire? Can we stop desiring at this point? I think the Buddha cooled it all, being a Buddha. I hope you are well, colette. Later, man. Sincerely, Scott. > > Even if Desire has a single fragment of "Self Existence" in it THEN it will be congnizable and therefore we can easily rely upon the Abhidharma as a Jewel, > > HOWEVER, > > you, the individual, has to operate it since this is MY operation of the Abhidharma to fulfill MY desire for ENLIGHTENMENT. > > Actions speak louder than words, NO? > > toodels, > colette > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > > > Dear Alex, > > > > Regarding: > > > > A: "Does repeated reading of certain passages over and over (asevana paccaya - repetition condition) again increase the conditions for wholesome states?" > > > > Scott: This is not 'repetition condition.' > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Scott. > > > #100608 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:41 pm Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. szmicio Dear Sukin, > When Lukas made his statement about sila, the impression I got was of someone developing `detachment'. L: Sometimes Lukas's with detachment arises. But mostly Lukas's with attachment and not knowing. still awarness is possible, and when it arises no Self anywhere. Only between moments of awarness there is a Self ;> My best wishes Lukas #100609 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: learning. Reading again & again (repetition condition) nilovg Dear Lukas and Alex, Op 11-sep-2009, om 4:39 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > You can't even say 'we' can listen, because there will be listening > in the right way as much as conditions will allow. There will be > studying of Dhamma in the right way as much as conditions will > allow, no more. It is not self. Hearing now is not self. Studying > is not self Right attention is not self. So, if we think that we > can study and we can listen we are misleading ourselves. We can be > aware while studying and listening, in order to learn that such > moments are not self. The more we listen in the right way, if there > are conditions for it, the more will we understand the difference > between just thinking and being aware. We will understand the > difference between trying to control realities and just letting > awareness arise naturally and being aware of what appears for one > brief moment. -------- N: Lukas, I am glad you gave us this quote from Ven. Dhammadharo. This is good: 'As much as conditions allow'. Sometimes thoughts arise about lack of progress, about our ignorance and we have aversion. Knowing that there can be listening and understanding as much as conditions allow can calm us down. No forcing, no trying. This is a kind of lobha that may come in, even in a subtle form. Alex, in this respect a good friend can be of help to remind us. But I add that we should not follow a friend blindly. We have to verify what we hear for ourselves. Then we may find out that 'it works'. We must find out whether or not there is more understanding of our life, of ourselves, of our faults and vices. Did we gain more understanding of the present moment? Nobody else can answer this for us. Alex, you may wonder how one can prove this. It is a matter we have to know for ourselves. We cannot prove this to others. Nina. #100610 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:06 pm Subject: Re: Remastered! szmicio Dear colette, I,ve got some second-hand story. I dont remember it now, because it was long ago since I've heard it. So forgive me if i change something. Of course maybe I made it up myself, i am not sure now. It was long ago when i heard this story. Buddha proposed to spend this time on not learnig how to walk on water but cultivate a friendship. Isnt it a wonderful story? I think that only right understanding is the thing that really matters. All metaphisic is just a border. Those are just few words from me, colette. If you dont like them that's OK. My best wishes Lukas #100611 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:19 pm Subject: Re: learning. Reading again & again (repetition condition) truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Alex, We are not developing detachment. In a next life conditions may be better or worse, we do not know. Why not develop understanding in this life?> > > My best wishes > Lukas > Dear Lucas (and Nina), Thank you all for your replies. Often the way you make it sound is that nothing can be done, don't even try, and then you say "Why not develop understanding in this life?" . It sounds a bit contradictory to me. I do believe that it is good to say and condition oneself and others that "things can be done, effort can be put, do as much as you can while you still can for death comes swiftly and at any time.". With metta, Alex #100612 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:52 pm Subject: Does weight of kamma depend on others? ptaus1 Hi all, I have a question about the actor sutta SN 42.2: Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor - himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless - with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb. - translation from ATI: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn42/sn42.002.than.html The sutta seems to draw attention to 3 main aspects: 1. wrong view that the actor holds 2. the actor being intoxicated and heedless through performing 3. making others intoxicated and heedless through his performance The first two points are pretty clear, however, I wonder about the third one and would appreciate your comments: - having made others intoxicated and heedless - this seems to indicate that the actor's kamma will be more severe (have more weighty results) because it inspired delusion in others. Is this a correct understanding? I mean, does kamma become more weighty depending on how others react to our deeds? To give an example - let's say I am an actor: Case 1 - I have an intention to inspire others to believe my performance (inspire delusion) and I succeed (so they do become intoxicated and heedless). Case 2 - I have the same intention, but I don't succeed - they don't believe my performance (so they don't become intoxicated and heedless). So, will my kamma in the case 1 bring more severe results than in the case 2, even though my intention in both cases is (in theory) exactly the same? Thanks for your help pt #100613 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:40 pm Subject: The Art of Absorption! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The 10 Tricks in the Art of Jhãna Concentration: 1: Making the basis pure: Means clean body, clean room and clean morality. 2: Balanced abilities = Energy equals concentration. Faith equals understanding. 3: Skill in the sign: Any moment of absorption is remembered exactly for recollection. 4: One exerts the mind on all occasions, it advantageously should be pushed forth. 5: One controls the mind on all occasions, it advantageously should be held back. 6: One encourages mind on occasions it advantageously should be incited and cheered. 7: One observes the mind with calm equanimity, when things proceed appropriately. 8: One avoids all distracted, agitated, frantic, unconcentrated, and stressed persons. 9: One cultivates company with well focused, determined and concentrated persons. 10: One is resolutely determined upon that absorption level of jhana concentration. Vism I 128. <....> Have a nice concentrated day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #100614 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:50 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (51) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ Citta is one of the factors that produces groups of the "eight inseparable ruupas" of the body [Note 1] and among them the element of wind or motion plays its specific part in causing motion of ruupas of the body so that intimation can be displayed. The "Atthasaalinii" (I, Book I, Part III, 82, 83) states about bodily intimation: "Because it is a capacity of communicating, it is called "intimation". What does it communicate? A certain wish communicable by an act of the body. If anyone stands in the path of the eye, raises his hands or feet, shakes his head or brow, the movement of his hands, etc. are visible. Intimation, however, is not so visible; it is only knowable by the mind. For one sees by the eye a colour-surface moving by virtue of the change of position in hands, etc. [Note 2] But by reflecting on it as intimation, one knows it by mind-door-consciousness, thus: 'I imagine that this man wishes me to do this or that act.'" The intention expressed through bodily intimation is intelligible to others, not through the eye-door but through the mind-door. Knowing, for example, that someone waves is cognition through the mind-door and this cognition is conditioned by seeing-consciousness that experiences visible object or colour. The meaning of what has been intimated is known by reflection on it, thus it can only be cognized through the mind-door. The "Visuddhimagga" (XIV, 61) defines intimation in a similar way and then states about its function, manifestation and proximate cause: "... Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of bodily excitement. Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated air-element." [Note 1] The four Great Elements of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion, and visible object, odour, flavour and nutrition. [Note 2] Because of sa~n~naa, remembrance, one can perceive the movement of a colour surface. Seeing sees only colour, it cannot see movement of colour. ------------------------------ with metta, Han #100615 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:57 pm Subject: Re: Does weight of kamma depend on others? jonoabb Hi pt (100612 > - having made others intoxicated and heedless - this seems to indicate that the actor's kamma will be more severe (have more weighty results) because it inspired delusion in others. Is this a correct understanding? I mean, does kamma become more weighty depending on how others react to our deeds? > > To give an example - let's say I am an actor: > Case 1 - I have an intention to inspire others to believe my performance (inspire delusion) and I succeed (so they do become intoxicated and heedless). > Case 2 - I have the same intention, but I don't succeed - they don't believe my performance (so they don't become intoxicated and heedless). > > So, will my kamma in the case 1 bring more severe results than in the case 2, even though my intention in both cases is (in theory) exactly the same? > =============== To my understanding, the more convincing the performance the heavier the kamma. But I would not characterise this by saying that the weight of kamma depends on how others react to our deeds, because "react" can include a much wider range of situations than is being contemplated here. My two cents worth, anyway. Jon #100616 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:55 pm Subject: Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . jonoabb Hi KenH (100598) > J: > I think this kind of knowledge would be the province of Buddhas and > their chief > disciples. > ---------------------- > > That's what I would have thought too. I wish the question had occurred > to me sooner! > > Or have people been trying to tell me that all along? :-) > =============== Not as far as I know. I don't remember that the point has come up in the discussion before now, at least not so directly. Is this what you've been saying all along? ;-)) =============== > I have no objection to a monk's knowing the difference between walking > and running. :-) > > I was arguing that a monk did not *need* to know *for satipatthana > purposes* which particular gait he was employing at the time. He didn't > need to know if a presently nama or rupa was part of an act of walking > (as distinct from part of an act of running or crawling etc.). =============== OK, I think I see what you were getting at. Yes, knowledge of the particular gait is not necessary for direct understanding of a nama or rupa that is a part of the act of walking (although surely this would in fact be known to the monk). =============== Just as > (as you have now confirmed) he didn't need to know if a presently > arisen alobha cetasika was part of an act of dana. =============== Likewise, knowledge of whether the present arising alobha cetasika forms part of an act of dana (and thus is kamma patha) is not necessary for the direct understanding of that alobha cetasika. Was that the only sticking point? Jon #100617 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? nilovg Dear pt, Op 11-sep-2009, om 20:52 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Case 1 - I have an intention to inspire others to believe my > performance (inspire delusion) and I succeed (so they do become > intoxicated and heedless). > Case 2 - I have the same intention, but I don't succeed - they > don't believe my performance (so they don't become intoxicated and > heedless). > > So, will my kamma in the case 1 bring more severe results than in > the case 2, even though my intention in both cases is (in theory) > exactly the same? ------- N: What seems one act, one kamma, is actually countless akusala cittas with the intensity of kamma that can bring their results accordingly. You speak about a situation, but we should rather view it by way of paramattha dhammas. Many different cittas with different intensities. Therefore, it is impossible to measure kamma, this is the province of the Buddhas. Nina. #100618 From: "connie" Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:12 pm Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (37-39) nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing from #100362 Fours (34-36) (cy: #100564, #100594): CSCD < Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? szmicio Dear Nina, pt and Jon > > So, will my kamma in the case 1 bring more severe results than in > > the case 2, even though my intention in both cases is (in theory) > > exactly the same? > ------- > N: What seems one act, one kamma, is actually countless akusala > cittas with the intensity of kamma that can bring their results > accordingly. You speak about a situation, but we should rather view > it by way of paramattha dhammas. Many different cittas with different > intensities. > Therefore, it is impossible to measure kamma, this is the province of > the Buddhas. L: yes and even Buddha answered: "Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that." Talaputa'd had to ask few more times before Buddha gave him an answer. I think it is not important to think about conventional matter of kamma. We all belive that we can change kamma, we take kamma for ourselfes, but kamma is only a few conditioned moments of cittas, the javana-cittas. In samsara.. When there are condtions for ignorance and akusala kamma, the akusala kamma will arise,and no one can change this. Anattaness. Buddha said once "i saw the hell of sensual pleasures", i saw the heaven of sensual pleasures". So no choosing, just daily life. My best wishes Lukas #100620 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:57 pm Subject: Re: learning. Reading again & again (repetition condition) szmicio Dear Alex, > Thank you all for your replies. Often the way you make it sound is that nothing can be done, don't even try, and then you say "Why not develop understanding in this life?" . It sounds a bit contradictory to me. > >Alex: I do believe that it is good to say and condition oneself and others that > > "things can be done, effort can be put, do as much as you can while you still can for death comes swiftly and at any time.". L: if you say this to your friend, then the right effort can arise in him. why not? Buddha taught the whole life. "Develop kusala with all your strenght. dont be neglectful." This Dhamma when heard can condition the right understanding. But not you who is doing anything. The Dhamma was heard and leave it like this. Dont go futher, it wont help to have more idea of Self. Only right understanding can condition right sati(samma-sati). Another sati that arises is not samma. it is a very subtle difference. In the time of Buddha people reacted in different ways. Even they heard a short speach on siila, they didnt think with akusala, imagine people and things. But they were thinking with cittas with right understanding that knows nama and ruppa. even heard only about siila. That's of course how I see this. My best wishes Lukas #100621 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:52 pm Subject: On Khun Sujin, from another board. truth_aerator Dear Nina and all, This is what I've found on another board: "Clearly, Khun Sujin does not subscribe to the mere intellectual comprehension some of her students advocate. Abhidhamma is an experience for her, not just a learning by heart all the pali words and classifications. If I recall correctly Abhidhamma was considered an advanced teaching, not useful for beginners of meditation. I cannot understand why some students of her alter this and think it is for people who do not have developed sati-sampajanna. ...It's not about learning the Abhidhamma; this is about practicing the four satipatthanas. If it's about the practice, then one must bring to contemplation the rupas that are joined together; only as much as sitting, lying, standing and walking, to scatter out [disintegrate, or make it loose cohesion] the perception of one compact solid mass (ghanasanna ) and so destroy the idea of being a self (atta). It's not necessary to scatter up to the 28 rūpas, that's useless, because the point of such scattering is only theoretical; its point isn't the practice. The point of Abhidhamma is not to practice. That which its point is practice, is the discourse on the four satipatthanas -at the time of practicing it. Another thing concerning the contemplation of rupa, there is no instruction anywhere to contemplate the 28 rupas, right? Or please try to give a reference, a sutta where the Lord Buddha instructs to contemplate the 28 rupas. There is none. There's just the instructions to contemplate dhatu: earth, water, air and fire; the lying, standing, walking posture; and this sort of things, which are all rupa-dhammas that are joined together which cause the appearance of the different kinds of modes (akara). Each mode differs from each other according to conditions. Only this has any usefulness pertaining contemplation and the further arising of understanding (panna). The importance about the Lord Buddha coming to teach the Abhidhamma-pitaka is that people got to know there are 28 rupas. Before nobody knew. The Venerable Sariputta, the foremost in possessing great wisdom, so far didn't know at all that there are 28 rupas. But it was not only Sariputta who practiced according to the Lord Buddha's instructions before he had taught the Abhidhamma-pitaka, also all the others Great Disciples. The Lord Buddha went to teach the Abhidhamma at the heavenly realm of Tavatimsa (at his second rains-retreat), and until then they knew there are 28 rupas. All the Arahats at that time did not know there are 28 rupas, which shows that although they didn't know there are 28 rupas, they were able to accomplish arahatship-their method of practice was something else. But back to nowadays, people raise such vociferous cries, [47] they have to point out which rupa is it among the 28 rupas. This is what is called, "the Abhidhamma has climbed up into the brain." And it shows no sense of time and place. The practice of vipassana is another thing. When we take medicine, we must know what such medicine consists of? One just needs to know what sickness it cures and that's enough. The former is the business of the people who compound the medicine... by Achan Chayawat Kapilakan ============ My addition: When the Buddha has talked about 12 ayatana or 18 dhatus, etc etc, he was NOT interested or intending to merely describe "what is". What he wanted to show is that the experience happens due to causes and conditions and that is beyond mastery, impermanent, subject to become otherwise, not-Self and not to be clung to. His purpose was more practical than giving another theory on the ultimate constituents of the "world out there" which were dime a dozen in Ancient India. With metta, Alex #100622 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? ptaus1 Hi Jon, Nina and Lukas, Thanks for your replies. I understand that kamma results are a tough topic, so I'm only hoping to discuss the main principles of how kamma works, especially because the interesting point of the sutta seems to go against (or at least, goes in addition to) the familiar kamma maxim that beings are heirs to their own kamma. Besides, it also looks like my job will soon take me into entertainment industry for a while, so this topic seems relevant. Perhaps it would help the discussion if we limit it to a simple example of telling a one-line joke (granted, there are still many cittas involved even in such short-lived situation, but at least it is much simpler): First, there's my intention to tell a joke (temporarily cause delusion in others) Second, that intention leads to the action of telling a joke. Third, my audience believes me (becomes intoxicated and heedless for a moment). Now, as Jon suggests, I'd think that my kamma would have more weight because the joke was successful and set the audience into temporary delusion, but the main issue is - why is that? There are two possibilities that I'm considering: 1. In response to audience liking my joke, I get more moments with conceit and lobha (like enjoying that the audience likes me, being proud, etc) and that's what makes my kamma more heavy. 2. The simple fact that the audience became delusional as a result of my action is what makes my kamma more heavy (so it's kind of like a law of how kamma works). Now, I have no problem with point 1, but point 2 seems to go against the maxim that beings are heirs to their own kamma. I mean, if the weight of my kamma really depends on other people's response to my actions, then I'm kind of a heir to both my delusional intentions, as well as theirs? What do you think? pt #100623 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? upasaka_howard Hi, pt (and Jon & Lukas) - In a message dated 9/12/2009 3:55:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ptaus1@... writes: Hi Jon, Nina and Lukas, Thanks for your replies. I understand that kamma results are a tough topic, so I'm only hoping to discuss the main principles of how kamma works, especially because the interesting point of the sutta seems to go against (or at least, goes in addition to) the familiar kamma maxim that beings are heirs to their own kamma. Besides, it also looks like my job will soon take me into entertainment industry for a while, so this topic seems relevant. Perhaps it would help the discussion if we limit it to a simple example of telling a one-line joke (granted, there are still many cittas involved even in such short-lived situation, but at least it is much simpler): First, there's my intention to tell a joke (temporarily cause delusion in others) Second, that intention leads to the action of telling a joke. Third, my audience believes me (becomes intoxicated and heedless for a moment). Now, as Jon suggests, I'd think that my kamma would have more weight because the joke was successful and set the audience into temporary delusion, but the main issue is â€" why is that? There are two possibilities that I'm considering: 1. In response to audience liking my joke, I get more moments with conceit and lobha (like enjoying that the audience likes me, being proud, etc) and that's what makes my kamma more heavy. 2. The simple fact that the audience became delusional as a result of my action is what makes my kamma more heavy (so it's kind of like a law of how kamma works). Now, I have no problem with point 1, but point 2 seems to go against the maxim that beings are heirs to their own kamma. I mean, if the weight of my kamma really depends on other people's response to my actions, then I'm kind of a heir to both my delusional intentions, as well as theirs? What do you think? --------------------------------------------- If you don't mind my butting in with an opinion: As I understand it, kamma is intention, and it becomes weightier when that intention is strong enough to result in action. That, as far as I understand it, is the whole story. That is, how another reacts to one's intentional action does not, in my understanding, impact the weight of one's kamma. The intention and the carrying out of the intention are what count. As an example: Suppose person A intends to say something hurtful to person B with the aim of causing him/her mental pain, and then *does* so. Now, among the possible reactions by B are two extremes: 1) Person B is extremely saddened and distressed by the remark, and 2) Person B is mildly amused by the remark and feels compassion for person A, knowing that A's anger and vindictiveness are painful to him/her. As I see it, regardless of which reaction B has, the intentional action on the part of person A is all that is relevant as regards A's kamma vipaka. The reaction of B pertains only to B. ---------------------------------------------------------- pt ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100624 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? hantun1 Dear Howard (pt and others), > Howard: If you don't mind my butting in with an opinion: As I understand it, kamma is intention, and it becomes weightier when that intention is strong enough to result in action. That, as far as I understand it, is the whole story. That is, how another reacts to one's intentional action does not, in my understanding, impact the weight of one's kamma. The intention and the carrying out of the intention are what count. As an example: Suppose person A intends to say something hurtful to person B with the aim of causing him/her mental pain, and then *does* so. Now, among the possible reactions by B are two extremes: 1) Person B is extremely saddened and distressed by the remark, and 2) Person B is mildly amused by the remark and feels compassion for person A, knowing that A's anger and vindictiveness are painful to him/her. As I see it, regardless of which reaction B has, the intentional action on the part of person A is all that is relevant as regards A's kamma vipaka. The reaction of B pertains only to B. -------------------- Han: I am aware of the fact that the Buddha said the [precise working out of the] results of kamma is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about. [AN 4.77 Acintita Sutta: Unconjecturable] But I fully agree with your above comments. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #100625 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:05 pm Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. jonoabb Hi Alex (100621) > This is what I've found on another board: > > "Clearly, Khun Sujin does not subscribe to the mere intellectual comprehension some of her students advocate. > =============== I don't know of anyone on this list who has advocated "mere intellectual comprehension" (Do you?). =============== Abhidhamma is an experience for her, not just a learning by heart all the pali words and classifications. =============== I've not heard Ajahn Sujin encourage the learning by heart of the Pali terms and classifications. On the contrary, I've heard her say that mere learning by heart, etc, is not the study of the teachings. =============== If I recall correctly Abhidhamma was considered an advanced teaching, not useful for beginners of meditation. I cannot understand why some students of her alter this and think it is for people who do not have developed sati-sampajanna. =============== I know of no basis for the idea that the Abhidhamma was considered "an advanced teaching, not useful for beginners of meditation". It sounds more like the current day view of proponents of a "meditation" approach. =============== > My addition: When the Buddha has talked about 12 ayatana or 18 dhatus, etc etc, he was NOT interested or intending to merely describe "what is". What he wanted to show is that the experience happens due to causes and conditions and that is beyond mastery, impermanent, subject to become otherwise, not-Self and not to be clung to. His purpose was more practical than giving another theory on the ultimate constituents of the "world out there" which were dime a dozen in Ancient India. =============== I would put it this way: The Buddha was intending to describe "what is" in terms of the present-moment experience, not in terms of the "world out there" Jon #100626 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? jonoabb Hi pt (100622) > Thanks for your replies. I understand that kamma results are a tough topic, so I'm only hoping to discuss the main principles of how kamma works, … =============== In terms of general principles, I think the more "skill" and effort involved in doing something akusala, the heavier the kamma. In the particular case under discussion, this skill and effort is reflected in the "effect" on the audience, so it is described in those terms. Jon #100627 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:29 pm Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. truth_aerator Hi Jon, Nina and all interested, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (100621) > > This is what I've found on another board: > > > > "Clearly, Khun Sujin does not subscribe to the mere intellectual >comprehension some of her students advocate. > > =============== > > I don't know of anyone on this list who has advocated "mere >intellectual comprehension" (Do you?). Okay. How do you practice it then? Or shall I say, how are these realities seen? > =============== > Abhidhamma is an experience for her, not just a learning by heart all the pali words and classifications. > =============== > > I've not heard Ajahn Sujin encourage the learning by heart of the >Pali terms and classifications. On the contrary, I've heard her say >that mere learning by heart, etc, is not the study of the teachings. Ok. How does one sees these things? > =============== > > My addition: When the Buddha has talked about 12 ayatana or 18 dhatus, etc etc, he was NOT interested or intending to merely describe "what is". What he wanted to show is that the experience happens due to causes and conditions and that is beyond mastery, impermanent, subject to become otherwise, not-Self and not to be clung to. His purpose was more practical than giving another theory on the ultimate constituents of the "world out there" which were dime a dozen in Ancient India. > =============== > > I would put it this way: The Buddha was intending to describe >"what is" in terms of the present-moment experience, not in terms of >the "world out there" > > Jon The Buddha was concerned with teaching people the way out of suffering. Mere theory does not lead out of suffering, just the gratification of the intellect and conceit "I know and you don't". Considering that there were "dime a dozen" of different wacko theories, the Buddha's teaching would not stand out very much unless all those speculators were speculating and Buddha taught the practice of the way. The results is what made Buddha's pragmatic teaching stand out. IMHO. With metta, Alex #100628 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:45 pm Subject: Foul Flesh Frame! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Body is a bone-frame plastered with fat and skin: The body's nature: 300 bones, jointed by 180 joints, sewn into a chain by 900 sinews, plastered over with pieces of flesh, enveloped by inner membrane, fat and outer skin, with 9 openings constantly dribbling and trickling with tears, snot, saliva, slime, urine and excrement. Its bowels are inhabited by many fold bacteria, parasites and worms, the home of disease, the source of painful states, perpetually oozing from the nine orifices like a chronic open boil, and from thousands skin pores the stale sweat seeps, with bluebottles and their like buzzing round it, which when untended with tooth brush, washing, shaving, bathing, underclothing and dressing up looks just like a living corpse! In its natural wild then a body is a stinking nauseating repulsiveness, but by concealing its private parts under several cloths, by daubing it with various perfumes and salves, by pranking it with jewellery, it is faked up into a state being mistaken as 'I' & 'mine'! So men delight in women, and women in men, without perceiving the true nature of this body's characteristic foulness, now masked by this adventitious adornment. But in the ultimate sense, there is no place on any body even the size of an atom fit to lust after! Comically we loove the whole of this 'our precious temple, but when any such bits of it as head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, spittle, snot, excrement or urine have dropped off the body, then beings will not touch them! Though somewhat absurd, they are now ashamed, humiliated & disgusted with exactly the same matter as they adored before! But as long as any one of these disgusting things remains inside the body, though it is just as repulsive when inside, they take this body as agreeable, desirable, permanent, pleasant, & 'my beautiful self', since they are wrapped in the murk of ignorance and dyed with unseen and unrecognised affective greed for a physical self... Vism I 196 <...> Have a nice noticing day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #100629 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sukinderpal Hi Robert and Phil, Thanks for this. ====== > Hi None of the listeners would have done kusala with the thought of going to heaven in mind! > > Dear Sukin On many occasions in the texts people seem to consider going to heaven one of the rewards of right view and right deeds, and look forward to it. Robert Suk: I think I was somewhat idealistic. And biased aren't I towards you and against Phil? I reflected some on what you wrote and thought about times when I would consider in terms of good and bad results and be prompted to act accordingly, that perhaps these were not also interspersed with ideas about heaven and hell. I wondered if this was the case with the Buddha's direct audiences too. But I was still having difficulty imagining that they would actually conceive of "heaven" and would do good purely in order that they will then be reborn there. I wanted to believe that most of them would do good not for the kind of result, but more directly seeing the harm of akusala and value of kusala, if not the disadvantage of rebirth at all. So I asked A. Sujin about this. She said as we all know, that the Buddha pointed out *all* causes and effects. That even though the aim of the Teachings is not for 'good rebirth', but just as people today would think according to their own accumulations and take what they are inclined to, so too the people during the Buddha's time. In other words, there'd be some who would as you say, "look forward to" being reborn in heaven and acting accordingly. Sorry Phil for not giving more consideration to what you said in this regard. In any case I think that you are saying more than what Robert is saying, and in those parts I continue to disagree. ;-) Metta, Sukin #100630 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Sun, 6/9/09, szmicio wrote: >if we hear the Abhidhamma we can realize how accurate it is. How according to realities it is. No need to develop siila first, no need to do anything. No siila first. We can sit on the deck of the boat and in one moment there can be understanding of realities, without doing anything. This is so accurate. This is the Full Dhamma , the Abhidhamma. >This story was said in Atthasalini: <...> S: Yes, good comments and a nice quote. "We can sit on the deck of the boat and in one moment there can be understanding of realities, without doing anything." So true... It is only through the development of understanding that siila is developed and purified, after all. Keep sharing! Metta Sarah ======= #100631 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Hi pt & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com , "ptaus1" wrote: > There are 3 quotes that are often given here regarding abhidhamma authenticity: > > 1. the ninefold division of the teachings like in MN 22: > "Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma - discourses, stanzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories, marvels, and answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma, they do not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom." > > The Pali for the 9 teachings being: "sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, gatha, udana, itivuttaka, jataka, abbhutadhamma, and vedalla." > > 2. Atthasalini quote about the classification of abhidhamma pitaka: > "Thus as rehearsed at the council, the Abhidhamma is Pitaka by Pitaka classification, Khuddaka-Nikaya by Nikaya classification, Veyyakarana by part classification and constitutes two or three thousand untis of text by the classification of textual units" > > 3. the vinaya quote Vin, 1V,344: > "If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another, saying, Pray study the Suttas or Gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards you will learn the Vinaya - there is no offence in him," > > > I'd like to ask: > > a) what are the Pali terms in the Vinaya quote - i.e. is it Sutta, Gatha and Veyyakarana, or is it actually Sutta, Gatha and Abhidhamma? I tried searching in the pali tipitaka on http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/ but can't figure out what's "IV, 344". ... S: Alex answered and said 'Abhidhamma' is used in the quote. ... > > b) where is the 9-fold division explained in more detail - i.e. what is veyyakarana, what is sutta, what is gatha, etc? .... S: From an earlier message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/90911 : >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22905 1) Jim A: >According to a quick search on the CSCD an enumeration of the nine (or in part) are presented 42 times in the Suttantapi.taka, 9 times in the Abhidhammapi.taka, and twice in the Vinayapi.taka. 1. In the Majjhimanikaaya: 4 times in the Alagguupamasutta, MN 22 (M I 133-4), once in the Mahaasu~n~natasutta, MN 122 (M III 115), note that in this sutta only the first three are given. 2. In the Anguttarnikaaya: 20 times in the Book of Fours, 6 times in the Book of Fives, twice in the Book of Sixes, and three times in the Book of Sevens. 3. In the Khuddakanikaaya: five times in the two Niddesas. 4. Once in the Vibhanga. 5. 8 times in the Puggalapa~n~natti.< ***** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/81791 2) Sarah: >...Atthasaalinii, Introductory Discourse (PTS transl.) "Which are the 'nine parts'? The entire Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na, Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta, Vedalla. "Herein, the dual Sutta-Vibha"nga, the Niddesa, the Khadhakas, and Parivaara, the Ma"ngalasutta, Ratanasutta, Naalakasutta, Tuva.takasutta of the Sutta-Nipaata, and any other words of the Tathaagata bearing the name of Sutta should be regarded as Sutta. "All the Suttas with verses should be understood as Geyya. In particular, all the chapters with verses in the Sa.myutta-Nikaaya form Geyya. "The entire Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, Suttas without verses and any other words of the Buddha not included in the eight parts should be understood as Veyyaakara.na, or exposition. "Dhammapada, Theragaathaa, Theriigaathaa, those pieces in the Sutta-Nipaata not called Sutta, and entirely in verse should be known as Gaathaa. "Eighty-two Suttantas connected with verses due to knowledge and joy should be understood as Udaana. "One hundred and twelve Suttantas taught in this wise: 'Thus was it said by the Blessed One,' etc., should be understood as Itivuttaka.... "Five hundred and fifty birth-stories beginning with Apa.n.naka constitute the Jaataka. "All Suttantas connected with wonderful and the marvellous things spoken in this wise: 'There are, bhikkhus, four wonderful and marvellous things in Ananda,' should be understood as Abbhuta. "All Suttantas in the form of questions asked through repeated attainment of delight and understanding, such as the Suttas: Cullavedalla, Mahaavedalla.....etc., should be understood as Vedalla. Such are the nine parts."< ***** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46484 3) Sarah: >'Heard with the Ear' (AN, 4s, 191, PTS) " 'Monks, four advantages are to be looked for from the frequent verbal practice of teachings heard with the ear (sotaanugataana"m), from considering them in the mind, from thoroughly penetrating them by view. What are the four? Herein a monk masters Dhamma, to wit: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na and the rest (Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla)*. Those teachings heard with the ear, often practiced verbally, considered by the mind, are thoroughly penetrated by view.' " ..... [S: digression from 4s, 186 "Approach (Ummagga)" On the meaning of 'mastery, being well learned and knowing Dhamma by heart': " ...Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla .Now if a monk understands the meaning and (text of) dhamma, - even if it be but a stanza of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may well be called 'one widely learned, who knows Dhamma by heart.' "< **** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27018 4) Jon: >Vism.EngPali.XIV, 24 (e) 'Here a bhikkhu knows the Dhamma (Law)--the Discourses, Songs, [Expositions, Stanzas, Exclamations, Sayings, Birth Stories, Marvels, and] Answers to Questions--this is called the "discrimination of law". He knows the meaning of whatever is said thus : "This is the meaning of this that was said; this is the meaning of this that was said"--this is called the "discrimination of meaning" ... idha bhikkhu dhamma.m jaanaati sutta.m geyya.m...pe0... vedalla.m. aya.m vuccati dhammapa.tisambhidaa. so tassa tasseva bhaasitassa attha.m jaanaati `aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho, aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho'ti. aya.m vuccati atthapa.tisambhidaa.< ***** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/58533 5) Sarah: >...the 'Alagadduupama Sutta'. The simile of the snake starts with these lines: (Nanamoli/Bodhi translation). "Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma - discourses, stanzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories, marvels, and answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma, they do not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom." So what is included here within the Dhamma are (from the Pali): "sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, gatha, udana, itivuttaka, jataka, abbhutadhamma, and vedalla." All the Pitakas are included in the 9 angas as clarified in the point above.< ***** [S: To add further: From Nyanaponika's commentary notes to the Alagadduupama Sutta From the commentary: "....There are, to wit, three manners of studying the Teaching: studying it in the manner of the Snake-simile (alagadda-pariyatti); studying it for the sake of crossing over (ni.t.tharana-pariyatti); and studying in a treasurer's (or store-keeper's) position (bhandaa-gaarika-pariyatti)" It then goes on to describe how the first kind of study or pariyatti is for fame and gain and is 'the wrong grasp'. I like this: "but better than such a study would be for him to sleep and not to study at all". The second way is by fulfilling morality when it's the subject, letting concentration take root when it's the subject and establishing himself in insight when it's the subject. This is "studying for the sake of crossing over" as expressed in the simile of the Raft. The third way of study is the arahant's, who like the treasurer, he studies the teachings "as a keeper of the scriptures, as a guardian of the tradition, as a preserver of the continuity".]< **** S: Hope this helps. See also 'Abhidhamma-origins', 'Ninefold...', 'Vinaya-commentary' in U.P. Metta Sarah ***Pls, Anyone, include the link (and name of poster) if quoting from any messages here elsewhere, so it's easy for anyone to find the original (and follow the discussion at the end of the posts).*** ========= #100632 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:39 am Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. szmicio Dear Alex, Do u still belive any Self? There is no Self that is practicing. > >Jon: I don't know of anyone on this list who has advocated "mere >intellectual comprehension" (Do you?). > >Alex: Okay. How do you practice it then? Or shall I say, how are these realities seen? L: No practice at all. You can go down the street, you can drive your car, you can be on the bus to school, no matter where, the awarness and right understanding can arise. It's not intelectual. There is the object of awarness. > > I've not heard Ajahn Sujin encourage the learning by heart of the >Pali terms and classifications. On the contrary, I've heard her say >that mere learning by heart, etc, is not the study of the teachings. > > Alex: Ok. How does one sees these things? L: No one who sees. There is a seeing and then thinking. No one can change this. There can be awarness and no one can make it to arise. >Alex: The Buddha was concerned with teaching people the way out of suffering. L: Buddha was concerned rather to give the Dhamma that leads to the end of suffering. He didnt knew concepts, but he saw Dhamma as it is. He saw how conepts condition right understanding. >Mere theory does not lead out of suffering, just the gratification of the intellect and conceit "I know and you don't". L: You still belive in a Self. You know intelectually there is no Self, but still belive in it ;> There is no Self that's doing a practice, but there is a Dhamma that heard condition right understanding. > Considering that there were "dime a dozen" of different wacko theories, the Buddha's teaching would not stand out very much unless all those speculators were speculating and Buddha taught the practice of the way. The results is what made Buddha's pragmatic teaching stand out. IMHO. L: You can hear Dhamma and in instant moment there can be mind with yoniso manasikara. My best wishes Lukas #100633 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:31 am Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. jonoabb Hi Alex (100627) > > I don't know of anyone on this list who has advocated "mere >intellectual comprehension" (Do you?). > > Okay. How do you practice it then? Or shall I say, how are these realities seen? We would all like to know how it's done. If only it were capable of being reduced to a set of instructions to be followed! ;-)) It is the mental factor of understanding (panna) that sees dhammas as they truly are. This understanding has its conditions. It arises when those conditions are fulfilled and not otherwise. It's not a matter of us doing something and then understanding arising. The conditions for understanding to arise include: - hearing the teachings explained in a way that is appropriate to our level of understanding and to our particular wrong views - reflecting on what has been heard and understood intellectually, by reference to the present moment There is no way of knowing when understanding will arise or what object (dhamma) it will take. The development of insight requires patience and courage (based on confidence in the teachings). But the frequency and strength of awareness is really immaterial. The important thing is that the right conditions are being developed. Jon #100634 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:49 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Question: Should there be no attachment between husband and wife, parents and children? When I consider the many broken families around me I am inclined to think that attachment is good. Why do you think there should not be love? Answer: It is not a matter of should or should not. You are as you are. However, there can be a more precise understanding of what is unselfish love, or true considerateness for others and what is attachment, selfish love. We should understand the difference between unselfish love and selfish love. Unselfish love is characterised by considering the welfare of others. Attachment to other people is for the sake of one's own pleasant feeling. When we like to be with dear people and like a pleasant home there is attachment; we think of ourselves. Question: I understand that attachment is not wholesome. Does this mean that we have to forsake all the joys of life, such as listening to beautiful music, going to a disco, reading books, laughing with our friends or going shopping? Do we have to give up all these attachments and all pleasant feelings? Answer: It is precisely our daily life that has to be understood. We should live our daily life naturally, in order to understand our inclinations, our defilements. We should understand our attachment and aversion as they naturally arise. We can enjoy all the pleasant things but we should at the same time develop more understanding of the realities of our life. We should have more understanding of the true nature of attachment, aversion, kindness, pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling. A wise person can live with pleasure and with understanding. Question: We like pleasant objects and we dislike unpleasant objects; that is natural. Like and dislike do not always lead to bad deeds. Are they always unwholesome? Answer: There are many degrees of like and dislike. They may be slight or they may be more intense, leading to unwholesome deeds. One may like something to the degree that one wants to take it away and then it is obvious that there is unwholesomeness. But also, when like is of a lesser degree it is not beneficial, not wholesome. After seeing, hearing and the other sense-impressions, we often have attachment which we may not notice at all. We are inclined to be attached to all the sense objects and thus attachment is bound to arise. At such moments there is selfishness; there is no generosity. Since attachment arises time and again it is accumulated. Also dislike can have many degrees. It can lead to violence and then it is obvious that there is unwholesomeness. When it is of a lesser degree there is uneasiness or moodiness; we have no peace of mind. Whenever we have unpleasant feeling, the reality of aversion has arisen. As I said, attachment, aversion and ignorance are the three unwholesome roots for the unwholesome moments of consciousness. ________ Nina. #100635 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: learning. Reading again & again (repetition condition) nilovg Dear Alex, Op 11-sep-2009, om 19:19 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Often the way you make it sound is that nothing can be done, don't > even try, and then you say "Why not develop understanding in this > life?" . It sounds a bit contradictory to me. I do believe that it > is good to say and condition oneself and others that > > "things can be done, effort can be put, do as much as you can while > you still can for death comes swiftly and at any time.". ------- N: Nobody will deny your last sentence, it is also in the suttas. Make an effort, it can be done etc. When we read this it can be an exhortation, and at the same time we learn that effort is a cetasika, not self. When you reason about this, doubt may arise. When you lead your life naturally and you consider realities as they appear through the six doors, you will find out that there are no discrepancies. The understanding of anattaa can become more and more profound. -------- N: You wrote in another post: All this happens now, at this moment. You can read this and consider it now. Then you get up to walk for a while, and you may forget or not forget, depending on conditions. But you do not lose your interest in the Dhamma, even when there are many moments of forgetfulness. There will be more patience with regard to the accumulated ignorance and other defilements, they arise because of conditions. They have been accumulated for many aeons and they are still accumulating. But we do not lose confidence in the Buddha's Path. ------- Nina. #100636 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Hi Alex (pt & all), --- On Mon, 7/9/09, truth_aerator wrote: >Note, No mention of the ultimate teaching, Abhidhamma Pitaka. ... S: No Pitakas of any kind in the Buddha's time. With regard to the Dhamma-Vinaya, anyone is welcome to understand what it refers to as elaborated in detail by the ancient commentaries of the Mahavihara tradition or as elaborated on by various 'modern scholars'. Often in the case of the latter, they refer back to the same ancient commentaries when it suits their case and discredit them when it doesn't:). ... >1) Abhidhamma *pitaka* was not mentioned by the Buddha. ... S: True .. >2nd) Atthasalini commentary is obviously later than the Buddha. ... S: True And what modern scholars write is around 2500 years later and without the support of the Mahavihara arahats or even the acceptance of the various Theravada Buddhist Councils. Metta Sarah ========= #100637 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sickness, to Howard sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (Howard & all), --- On Mon, 7/9/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Lodewijk said that in this day and age there is more catering to lobha and it is more difficult to develop satipatthaana in daily life. I tried to explain that this is not so, and then we said: let us ask Howard.... ... S: Howard made some good comments. The above is a popular belief, but we forget again and again that it is only visible object that's seen. Lobha is just the same now as it's always been. There have always been and always will be desirable objects for lobha to attach to and proliferations on account of the senses. Metta Sarah ======== #100639 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Lukas) - In a message dated 9/13/2009 12:30:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: Yes, good comments and a nice quote. "We can sit on the deck of the boat and in one moment there can be understanding of realities, without doing anything." So true... =============================== Just a thought: If wishes were gold, we would be Midas! ;-) And two more thoughts (from the Buddha) are appended at the end. With metta, Howard /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains â€" going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it â€" and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) #100640 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Khun Sujin, from another board. nilovg Dear Alex, you made some interesting points. I understand Acharn Chayawat's point of view. I am not a member of this other board, but if you like you can pass on my post to him. He probably saw my book on the 28 kinds of ruupa, 'The Buddhis Teaching on Physical Phenomena'. Op 12-sep-2009, om 18:52 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > The point of Abhidhamma is not to practice. That which its point is > practice, is the discourse on the four satipatthanas -at the time > of practicing it. ------- N: All twentyeight ruupas occur in daily life but not all are suitable for contemplation, as the Visuddhimagga states. The gross rupas of the sense objects and the senses are fit for contemplation. However, it is beneficial to also learn about the other ruupas, so as to have more understanding of the intricate conditions for the realities that occur. It depends on the individual's inclination how many details he wants to learn. The Buddha spoke in the suttas about visible object, eyesense and seeing-consciousness. Visible object does not arise by itself, it needs the four great Elements as a foundation. Eyesense does not arise by itself, it needs the four great Elements as a foundation. When colour or visible object impinges on the eyesense, only the ruupa that is colour impinges on the eyesense, the great elements that arise together with it in a group do not impinge on the eyesense. It impinges on the eyesense, not on the rupas that arise together with eyesense in a group. It is amazing that they unite at the right time so that seeing can arise. Understanding this helps us to become detached to the idea of my seeing, my eyesense. The sole purpose of the Abhidhamma is helping us to see anattaa. Abhidhamma and satipatthaana go together very closely. Pariyatti must be right so that it conditions pa.tipatti. We may read in the suttas about the aayatanas, but a deeper understanding of them can be developed: it is the association of different realities, such as eyesense, visible object and seeing. Nobody can direct this association, it occurs because of conditions. Acharn Chayawat rightly points out that a solid mass of person and thing should be desintegrated. The Abhidhamma is of great assistance to understand the world in the ariyan sense: six worlds appearing one at a time through the six doorways. This leads to the eradication of attaa sa~n~naa. Acharn asks whether there is a sutta where the Buddha asks to contemplate the twentyeight kinds of ruupa. The Buddha taught the four great Elements to Raahula. After that he taught Raahula on akaasa, space. We read in the commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaada sutta: -------- N: I see the untiy of the three parts of the Tipi.taka, but I am well aware that there are different opinions about Abhidhamma and about the commentaries. These subjects can be discussed about endlessly. Nina. #100641 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? nilovg Hi Howard, Very well explained. Appreciated, Nina. Op 12-sep-2009, om 22:53 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > As I see it, regardless of which > reaction B has, the intentional action on the part of person A is > all that > is relevant as regards A's kamma vipaka. The reaction of B pertains > only to > B. #100642 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:09 pm Subject: On Matter truth_aerator Dear Nina, (and all), Thank you for your reply >--- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > ------- > N: All twentyeight ruupas occur in daily life but not all are > suitable for contemplation, as the Visuddhimagga states. The gross > rupas of the sense objects and the senses are fit for contemplation. > However, it is beneficial to also learn about the other ruupas, so as > to have more understanding of the intricate conditions for the > realities that occur. > It depends on the individual's inclination how many details he wants > to learn. Sure. But one needs to remember the point of analysis. The point is not to give a "complete" picture of the physical world out there. The Buddha was not concerned with such speculative ideas. He, IMHO, was concerned about "the world in here". > The Buddha spoke in the suttas about visible object, eyesense and > seeing-consciousness. Visible object does not arise by itself, it > needs the four great Elements as a foundation. Eyesense does not > arise by itself, it needs the four great Elements as a foundation. > When colour or visible object impinges on the eyesense, only the > ruupa that is colour impinges on the eyesense, the great elements > that arise together with it in a group do not impinge on the > eyesense. It impinges on the eyesense, not on the rupas that arise > together with eyesense in a group. It is amazing that they unite >at > the right time so that seeing can arise. > Understanding this helps us to become detached to the idea of my > seeing, my eyesense. Exactly. One cannot wish "let me cognize only beautiful sights". Whatever happens, happens due to causes and conditions. "Man proposes and conditionality disposes." >The sole purpose of the Abhidhamma is helping us to see anattaa. I believe in sutta analysis more. Merely breaking up experience into 100s of parts does not by itself prove anatta. I really like DN15 type of sutta arguments. Lets not forget about quality, not just quantity. >The Buddha taught the four great Elements to Raahula. After that he >taught Raahula on akaasa, space. Dear Nina, Buddha taught 5 elements on that occasion and in MN140 he mentioned 6 (consciousness being the 6th). Earth, water, fire, air, space, consciousness. > We read in the commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaada sutta: > > did the Blessed One speak about the meditation subject of >materiality? Perhaps to deal with defilements that would obstruct the practice of Anapanasati. This is also relevant to us. Sometimes it is worthy to do specific contemplations against specific gross defilements before doing anapanasati. With metta, Alex #100643 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:49 pm Subject: setting the conditions for supramundane mind moment. truth_aerator Hello Jon, Nina, Lukas and all interested, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (100627) > > > I don't know of anyone on this list who has advocated "mere >intellectual comprehension" (Do you?). > > > > Okay. How do you practice it then? Or shall I say, how are these realities seen? > > We would all like to know how it's done. If only it were capable of being reduced to a set of instructions to be followed! ;-)) > > It is the mental factor of understanding (panna) that sees dhammas >as they truly are. Yes, true. >This understanding has its conditions. It arises when those >conditions are fulfilled and not otherwise. It's not a matter of us >doing something and then understanding arising. Of course. The big discussion is about "what can be done to set those conditions" that will make the supramundane mind moment arise where N8P converges. With metta, Alex #100644 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:44 am Subject: Re: Does weight of kamma depend on others? gazita2002 hallo Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear pt, > Op 11-sep-2009, om 20:52 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > > > Case 1 - I have an intention to inspire others to believe my > > performance (inspire delusion) and I succeed (so they do become > > intoxicated and heedless). > > Case 2 - I have the same intention, but I don't succeed - they > > don't believe my performance (so they don't become intoxicated and > > heedless). > > > > So, will my kamma in the case 1 bring more severe results than in > > the case 2, even though my intention in both cases is (in theory) > > exactly the same? > ------- > N: What seems one act, one kamma, is actually countless akusala > cittas with the intensity of kamma that can bring their results > accordingly. You speak about a situation, but we should rather view > it by way of paramattha dhammas. Many different cittas with different > intensities. > Therefore, it is impossible to measure kamma, this is the province of > the Buddhas. > Nina. azita; I'm sure KenH would like this comment you have made Nina, as I'm sure you know his stand on actions as such. Just one citta at a time. Good to be reminded of this as we tend to take it all for self, be it myself or someone else. Sooo much avijja! patience, courage and good cheer, azita #100645 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? ptaus1 Hi Jon, Howard and Nina, Thanks for your replies. It seems then that I have misunderstood that part of the sutta - "having made others intoxicated and heedless" - it doesn't refer to a certain law of kamma, but only describes the "effect" or manifestation, of the actor's action. Thanks for correcting me. Best wishes pt #100646 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply on 9 divisions. That's an excellent collection of posts! Best wishes pt #100647 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:55 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 5, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Question: Why is ignorance unwholesome? Answer: Ignorance conditions all defilements. There is ignorance with each unwholesome moment of consciousness. Because of ignorance we live in darkness, we do not know what is wholesome and beneficial and what is unwholesome. Because of ignorance we don't know what is real and what is only imagination. Ignorance conditions a distorted view of realities, wrong view. When we believe that body and mind can stay, that they are permanent, there is wrong view. What we call mind is, in reality, only fleeting moments of consciousness which cannot stay. What we call body is ever-changing elements, which cannot stay. When we believe that mind and body are self or mine there is wrong view. Wrong view conditions many other defilements. Question: How do you find happiness in Buddhism? Answer: Through knowing realities as they are. Question: Why does that bring happiness? Answer: Right understanding can eliminate ignorance and wrong view. Through right understanding there will be less clinging, and that means more freedom. Question: There are different types of Buddhism such as Tibetan Buddhism or Zen. I think that Theravada Buddhism teaches the right Path. Are the other types wrong? Answer: I would not say that they are right or wrong. Any teaching which helps us to understand the reality of this moment is right. We should find out for ourselves which teaching is right and which is wrong. Question: If one is interested in Buddhism how should one begin to study it? Answer: One can read and consider what one reads and one should find the right person who can explain the teachings so that one can begin to develop right understanding of all the realities in one's life. Question: Can you explain more what realities are? Answer: In Buddhism we learn to understand the true nature of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking; and also the true nature of visible object, sound and the other objects which are experienced through the five sense-doors and through the mind-door. ******* Nina. #100648 From: Geri geri Date: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? sac9090 To: All, Does anyone know which sutta mentions the Buddha telling that an arrow wound is painful in itself but it is doubly painful if one does not know that one has even a wound? \ JC --- On Mon, 9/14/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: From: Nina van Gorkom Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? Hi Howard, Very well explained. Appreciated, Nina. Op 12-sep-2009, om 22:53 heeft upasaka@aol. com het volgende geschreven: > As I see it, regardless of which > reaction B has, the intentional action on the part of person A is > all that > is relevant as regards A's kamma vipaka. The reaction of B pertains > only to > B. <..> #100649 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:45 pm Subject: Well Gone Beyond! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Any Buddha is a sublimely Well Gone One (Sugata): 1: Because of the Way he has travelled, was good, 2: Because of having gone to an excellent Destination , 3: Because of having gone there Completely and Absolutely, 4: Because of explaining the Way thereto suitably and precisely! The Noble 8 fold Way he went, was purified and blameless, since it was without delay, obstruction, and leading directly to a sublime safety! The excellent place, that he has gone to is the deathless state of Nibbana, which is supreme, since this happy mode of existence cannot be found anywhere else! He has furthermore gone there completely absolutely & irreversibly without ever going back again to the defilements eliminated by each stage of path. For this is said: He does not again turn around, return, or slide back to the defilements abandoned by first the stream-entry , then the once-returner, then the never-returner and finally the Arahat path, thus is he supremely well gone... From the time of making his resolution at the feet of D ipankara Buddha many universal cycles ago, up until his Enlightenment in year 534 BC, by working solely for the welfare and happiness of the entire world, and through the fulfilment of the thirty perfections, and through following the Middle Way without ever deviating towards either of the two extremes, that is: Neither towards indulgence in sense pleasures, nor in any self-torture, neither towards any form of eternalism, nor any form of annihilationism, therefore is he sublimely well gone (sugata), having gone rightly and exactly down the exceedingly subtle, razor-sharp and difficult Noble 8-Fold Middle Way ! Then he enunciates and explains this unique Way rightly & exactly by speaking only about what is relevant, what fits the present occasion and in a way that suits the ability of the many listeners, so that they understand... Therefore also is he a sublimely Well Gone (Sugata) One, because of explaining this Way faultlessly, systematically and accurately. Vism I 203 <..> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #100650 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:37 am Subject: Re: Does weight of kamma depend on others? szmicio --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Geri geri wrote: > > To: All, > Does anyone know which sutta mentions the Buddha telling that an arrow wound is painful in itself but it is doubly painful if one does not know that one has even a wound? hi Sallatha Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html #100651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Matter nilovg Dear Alex, Op 13-sep-2009, om 23:09 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > N: However, it is beneficial to also learn about the other ruupas, > so as > > to have more understanding of the intricate conditions for the > > realities that occur. > > It depends on the individual's inclination how many details he wants > > to learn. > > A: Sure. But one needs to remember the point of analysis. The point > is not to give a "complete" picture of the physical world out > there. The Buddha was not concerned with such speculative ideas. > He, IMHO, was concerned about "the world in here". ------ N: Yes, the world in the discipline of the ariyan: six worlds, appearing through the six doorways. ------- > > N:... It is amazing that they unite >at > > the right time so that seeing can arise. > > Understanding this helps us to become detached to the idea of my > > seeing, my eyesense. > > A: Exactly. One cannot wish "let me cognize only beautiful sights". > Whatever happens, happens due to causes and conditions. > > "Man proposes and conditionality disposes." ------- N: Well said. -------- > > N: >The sole purpose of the Abhidhamma is helping us to see anattaa. > > A: I believe in sutta analysis more. Merely breaking up experience > into 100s of parts does not by itself prove anatta. I really like > DN15 type of sutta arguments. Lets not forget about quality, not > just quantity. > ------- N: There is no discrepancy as to suttanta and Abhidhamma. Conditions are shown for the phenomena that arise. ---------- > > N: >The Buddha taught the four great Elements to Raahula. After > that he >taught Raahula on akaasa, space. > > A: Dear Nina, Buddha taught 5 elements on that occasion and in > MN140 he mentioned 6 (consciousness being the 6th). Earth, water, > fire, air, space, consciousness. ------- N: Different ways of classifying elements. Space in this context represents the other derived ruupas according to the commentary. -------- > > N: > We read in the commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaada sutta: > > > > > did the Blessed One speak about the meditation subject of > >materiality? > > A: Perhaps to deal with defilements that would obstruct the > practice of Anapanasati. This is also relevant to us. Sometimes it > is worthy to do specific contemplations against specific gross > defilements before doing anapanasati. ------ N: But we should not forget that anapanasati is a most difficult subject. This was discussed on dsg quite often. Nina. #100652 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 11-sep-2009, om 7:19 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > Thanks, but I wasn't really talking about whether monks were > allowed to > hop and run. I was trying to make a point about the vagueness of > concepts. Ultimately there is no walking, hopping or running, so how > can we say we "know" the difference? > > One monk may walk so quickly that he is almost running. Another > (with an > injured leg, perhaps) may limp so badly that he is almost hopping. > There is no definite dividing line between one gait and another. ------- N: The Buddha was so compassionate that he gave exceptions to Vinaya rules, in case of sickness, or madness, etc. I was just giving an example that also concepts are important, we cannot live without them. ------- > > Ken : I admit, however, that my views on concepts in general might > go a > little too far. Perhaps they border on heterodoxy. ------ N:No, I don't think so. see Azita's post. We need people like you, reminding us, so that we do not forget about what is 'really real'. A balance is necessary, though. Otherwise daily life would not be natural. It is not wrong to think of concepts. -------- K: > I am really not > interested in the conventional (historical and scientific) accuracy of > the Tipitaka. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if (for example) > the Theras thought the world was flat - with heavens above and hell > below. Only the dhammas are worth bothering about. ------- N: Here I fully agree. Nina. #100653 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] setting the conditions for supramundane mind moment. nilovg Dear Alex and Jon, Op 13-sep-2009, om 23:49 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Jon: >This understanding has its conditions. It arises when those > >conditions are fulfilled and not otherwise. It's not a matter of > us >doing something and then understanding arising. > > A:Of course. The big discussion is about "what can be done to set > those conditions" that will make the supramundane mind moment arise > where N8P converges. ------- N: will make... Why the future? Nina. #100654 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:15 pm Subject: What to Say! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What, when and how to Speak! Such speech as the Perfect One knows to be untrue and incorrect, disadvantageous, and which also is unwelcome and disagreeable to others, that he does not speak. (No need at all...) Such speech as the Perfect One knows to be true and correct, yet still disadvantageous, and which also is unwelcome and disagreeable to others, that neither does he speak. (No advantage for listener!) Such speech as the Perfect One knows to be both true and correct, and also advantageous, yet still unwelcome & disagreeable to others, that speech the Perfect One waits for the right time to speak! (Correct constructive critique should fall, when it does not hurt!) Such speech as the Perfect One knows to be untrue and incorrect, disadvantageous, but pleasing, agreeable and welcome to others, that he does neither speak. (Empty and false flatter is all out...) Such speech as the Perfect One knows to be both true and correct, but disadvantageous, though pleasing, agreeable & welcome to others, that he does not speak. (No speech, when no advantage for listener!) Such speech as the Perfect One knows to be both true and correct, advantageous, and also pleasing, agreeable and welcome, that speech the Perfect One knows and picks the exact right time to speak. (Making well timed maximum impact of advantage for listener!) MN 58 <...> Have a nice well spoken day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #100655 From: "ksheri3" Date: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:14 pm Subject: Re: "No Time" by the Guess Who ksheri3 Scott, WHAT? where did I say or even suggest that Rupa has no characteristics? The first and formeost requirement of "conceptualization" is the distinction between that which is and that which is not. This same practice is used in the Buddhist analysis. So Please, ENLIGHTEN ME, where the hell would I suggest that "a thing" has no substantiation and therefore no characteristics? (You Theravadans are gonna love what I'm doin' and it will come back to you although I am certain that you will verify my applications and those scum that leach upon me as a MAGE and as a Shaman, will show themselves, CLEARLY, as being negative aspects of the Buddha's proclamations. Palease, <.....>I have no ability to percieve where you came up with this hallucination that I spoke of Rupa as having no physical representation at all and that it was only a physical representation within the mind? ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT: because you are in an Aristocratic class or Aristocratic Caste, U LIFE are you suggesting that my interpretations are nothing more than FALSE and nothing more than WORTHLESS since my interpretations are not a part of your caste or class? Is there a single line, as if it were a "command line" in a computer's operating system, is there a single line which controls as many robots as possible? DIDN'T THE BUDDHA SAY: "CHOSE TO MAKE TO MAKE YOUR LIFE A LAMP. LET 'TRUTH' BE YOUR 'LIGHT'"? [Psst, I tried it out, last week and found that this woek called "the Abhidharma" is without a doubt a Jewel: although it has sat for centuries on 'auto pilot', it is very responsive to a pilot that takes control of the "handles" and manipulates it in it's desired course.] Help me and my stupidity, help me, Scott, where the hell did I suggest that RUPA is without characteristics? <...> COME NOW, SCOTT, LET US HAVE BETTER THAN FALSE WITTNESS AS OUR ESTABLISHING FOUNDATION WHICH THE CHINESE TOOK SO MUCH CARE IN MANIFESTETING FOR US IN THEIR DEVOTION TO CONCRETE. WHAT WOULD A GREAT WALL BE WITHOUT A LOT OF CORPSES HOLDING THE EXTEREMES TOGETHER? In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Good Morning colette, > > Regarding: > > c: "...Scott, you spoke of DESIRE quite frequently. Ah, this thing called DESIRE is such a subtle and almost imperceptible aspect yet it EXISTS. While we in the Western society can dispose of this thing called DESIRE so easily by refering to such people as Carl Gustav Jung and such drug dependents as Sigmund Frued, Zurich School and Vienna School, RESPECTIVELY, we find that desire is nothing more than a bauble or trinket. > > Scott: If ruupa has no characteristic, as you state earlier, how can you now say that desire DOES? ------------------------------------ I mean I see ruupa as having a characteristic hence I see that desire must as well. > colette: FINE. You are correct. Rupa has to have characteristics. Do not exclude Nama from having characteristics, however. If Rupa did not have characteristics then how could you COGNIZE it? How could your eye-consciousness see it, how could your ear consciousness hear it, how could your body, tactile-consciousnes feel it, etc? Pardon me, and do not think that I am laughing at you! You have a VERY LONG WAY TO GO IN THE ACTUAL PRACTTICE OF MEDITATION. I cannot spoon feed you this stuff. No person can spoon feed you this stuff. you have to actually participate in it and actually practice it. AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, that you have not yet reached levels at which you can "bounce around" while at the same time maintaining a single consciousness. Don't worry! If you try and you maintain the procedures of MEDITATION, then it is a certainty that you will achieve it. -------------------------------------------------- > c: "lets see if this Abhidharma has any juice left in it after all these millenias of running on 'auto pilot'. Take the concept of DESIRE and ALL OF I T'S DEFINITIONS...Here I have already established that 'desire' IS and is 'being' but since it exists, WELL THEN, it is no longer a Nama. Desire is a RUPA..." > > Scott: Well, this goes a bit far for me, colette - I mean theoretically. Are you suggesting that ruupa changes into naama and vice-versa? > colette: I WAS CLEARLY SUGGESTING THAT I WANTED TO FIND OUT IF THIS "TOOL" CALLED THE ABHIDHARMA WAS ACTIVE IF I CHOSE TO TAKE THE CONTROLS, AS A PILOT TAKES THE CONTROLS OF AN AIRCRAFT, AND REMOVES THE AIRCRAFT FROM THE CONTROL OF AN 'AUTO-PILOT' THUS GIVING CONTROL TO A PILOT ACTUALLY CONTROLING THE WHEEL. YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN IT, FRIDAY, AT THE CORNER OF THE LIGUOR STORE I GO TO ALL THE TIME, GRAND/DIVISION/MONTICELLO, A MOTORCYCLEIST SEEMS TO HAVE RUN INTO A TANGENT WITH AN AUTOMOBILE THAT TOOK THE LIFE OF THE MOTORCYCLE DRIVER. <...> I HAVE TO START MY ABHIDHARMA ANALYSIS IN ANOTHER SITE WHERE I AM CURRENTLY MANIFESETING THE DREAMS AND THE HALLUCINATIONS OF THOSE THAT TORTURE ME AND ENSLAVE ME IN POVERTY. Thanks for your focus. toodles, colette > c: "...RUPA, as we all know, is a substance which can be injected into the veins, the hydraulic system, of a human and thus satiate, satisfy, pacify, even EXHALT, the robotic recipient. The object is external. Is it really true that the subject, 'individual', wants and needs this drug called 'DESIRE' injected into their veins, hydraulic system, in order to function? LETS FIND OUT." > > Scott: I think desire is naama, not ruupa. Is ruupa the object of desire? Can we stop desiring at this point? I think the Buddha cooled it all, being a Buddha. <...> #100656 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:45 am Subject: Re: setting the conditions for supramundane mind moment. jonoabb Hi Alex (100643) > >This understanding has its conditions. It arises when those >conditions are fulfilled and not otherwise. It's not a matter of us >doing something and then understanding arising. > > Of course. The big discussion is about "what can be done to set those conditions" that will make the supramundane mind moment arise where N8P converges. > =============== Whether we are asking "How do I bring about the arising of awareness?" or "What can I do to set up the conditions for the arising of awareness?", we are taking the development of insight to be a technique that can be practised. The conditions that support the arising of insight are not things to be *done (practised)*. They are things that *occur* (by their own conditions). But if we understand what these things are, then when the opportunity is there they can be developed. So what it takes in terms of input from us (if you like) is a better understanding of the way things are, that understanding being gained from hearing the teachings appropriately explained. By being exposed to the teachings, and reflecting carefully on what we've heard and how it relates to the present moment, there may be a better understanding of the way things truly are. This will in turn condition the arising of awareness in due course. Jon #100657 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? jonoabb Hi pt (100645) > Thanks for your replies. It seems then that I have misunderstood that part of the sutta - "having made others intoxicated and heedless" - it doesn't refer to a certain law of kamma, but only describes the "effect" or manifestation, of the actor's action. Thanks for correcting me. > =============== Well this is a very complex area. And as is common with reading the suttas, the meaning is not quite what it first appears to be. Of course, I'd be more confident of the correctness of my interpretation if I had access to a commentarial explanation, but in the absence of that we just have to use our best understanding of the teachings as a whole to "read" the passage. Jon #100658 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Element of space 7 of Y.Karunadasa sarahprocter... Hi pt (Lukas & all), Appreciating all your good questions and comments... --- On Sat, 5/9/09, ptaus1 wrote: > > S: The sabhava dhammas have characteristics which can be known directly. For the asabhava dhammas, this is not true. They can be known, but by whom? The sabhava dhammas have to be known first. > > ... > >> L: This is important that asabhava ruupa can also be known. > > sabhava - with characteristic. And this characteristic is stressed so often by Acharn Sujin. It can be known. > Can you say more on asabhava paramattha dhamma that is an object to pa~n~na? >pt: I'd like to expand on this question if that's okay: >1.how is the citta process that has a subtle rupa like water element (but not asabhava rupa) as the object different from a citta process that has a subtle rupa like space (that is asabhava) as the object? .... S: I'm not sure I can say. First, I think that what usually appears and can be known are the 7 rupas experienced through the sense-doors. Water-element is not much like our idea of water (as I understand) and is a subtle rupa, meaning that it doesn't usually appear - it's just thought about. When it comes to the asabhava dhammas, I remember somewhere in the Vism it saying that they do not commonly appear or something. I can't find it on a quick look. I just read a note taken from the MN Tiika commenting on MN 106: " '[Sense desires] are not empyt (ritta in the sense that space, which is entirely devoid of indidividual essence [sabhava], is called empty'." ... >2. how are the above two citta processes different from a citta process that has a nimitta of a concept as the object? ... S: A nimitta of a concept, such as in the development of samatha or even now as we speak, is not a direct understanding of the paramattha dhamma. For example, an idea of hardness (which may be theoretically correct or incorrect) is not the same as the direct understanding of hardness. The nimitta of the paramattha dhamma does not appear in the mind-door. As we know, pariyatti is essential for patipatti, however. Hardness (pathavi) can be 'tested' and directly known now. The same can't be said for water (apo) or space (akasa). This is why the development of samatha and even the highest jhanas doesn't lead to enlightenment without any understanding of paramattha dhammas. .... >I'd assume that all three processes (water-element, space and concept) happen only in the mind door, i.e. there are is no sense-door citta process that precedes the mind-door process of cittas. ... S: Yes. ... >So, I'm wondering what is the difference between the three, other than the object? I mean, how can panna tell the difference between the three, other than on the basis of mind-door simply adverting to different objects at the moment? ... S: Because it is the nature of panna to know. If it was the reality of a subtle rupa or asabhava rupa, panna would know it as such. At the first stage of insight, the mind-door is no longer 'covered up' by the sense-door processes. At the second stage, there's no more doubt about conditions and by the third stage, the arising of such dhammas begins to be known and I believe the nature of subtle rupas becomes more apparent. Just as now, the distinction between directly experiencing hardness and thinking about a concept of hardness can begin to be known by panna, so as panna develops, can the distinction between the direct experiencing of a subtle rupa and the thinking about such can be known. Take masculinity or femininity - we know that such rupas are there and we usually recognise who is a male and who a female, but it is only highly developed panna that actually knows the subtle rupas of such appearing. For us, they are just concepts, but it can be a kind of conceptual panna that knows this too. However, I don't think that much will ever be known by our conceptual ideas about such subtle dhammas. The details were taught by the Buddha (I believe) who understand all the finest intricacies. So, not sure this is much help....all very conceptual:-) Metta Sarah ======== #100659 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:19 am Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. kenhowardau Hi Sukin, -------------- <. . .> S: > Can we conclude this discussion now…….? :-} -------------- Yes, thank you, I think my main problem has been solved. I'll just have the last word on one or two other points you have raised: ------------------- S: > It is my opinion therefore, that even if Sila arose but there is no `knowing' of it, the moment is somewhat wasted as far as the development along the Path is concerned. ------------------- That opinion could get you into hot water. :-) Before anyone jumps on you for devaluing sila I should point out that you are not doing that at all. You are saying if we don't take the opportunity of knowing sila as it truly is, then we have wasted that opportunity. And the opportunity for knowing sila (at least intellectually) is here now. ---------- <. . .> S: > Moving in the conventional world without Right Understanding is moving in darkness and this includes when going by a conventional interpretation of the Dhamma the kind which most Buddhists do. In fact as I've pointed out before, in some cases it is better not to have heard the Dhamma. ---------- Yes, imagine if, when you first heard the true Dhamma, you already had a big reputation as a formal vipassana meditation teacher. How much harder would it have been then to accept that the Buddha *did not teach formal activities of any kind.* Just conditioned dhammas! Thanks again for your patience. As I will explain in my reply to Jon, all the fuss I have been making over "There has to be an act of dana," has turned out to be just muddled thinking on my part. Nothing new there! :-) Ken H #100660 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Dear Scott & Chris, --- On Sat, 5/9/09, scottduncan2 wrote: >C: "Thank you for your response...I was at Dhammagiri Forest Monastery today and spoke with Ven. Dhammasiha. His advice was not to get into arguments, not to feel I had to justify my stance, or call on others to justify theirs - just to be in this moment, fully aware." >Scott: Good advice. And - not to be glib - prescribed or described, fully aware or not, there is only being in 'this moment.' ... Sarah: And also not to be glib, but what does it mean to "just be in this moment, fully aware"? I ask because this is exactly what the theme was of a good yoga class I went to the other day. While it's a helpful general reminder, without any understanding of namas and rupas, it won't lead to any less detachment from the idea of Atta, will it? Metta Sarah ========= #100661 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Hi Alex & all, --- On Sun, 6/9/09, truth_aerator wrote: >Regarding the word Abhidhamma. According to Bhikkhu Bodhi in MN book and some professor (forgot his name) the word does not mean Abhidhamma pitaka. For example abhidhammakatham is mention in mahagosinga sutta PTS MN 1.214, but the word according to scholars didn't mean Abhidhamma Pitaka (and there are multiple of them in early pre-Mahayana teachings). ... S: This is a good example of the point I was making yesterday. As I recall, B. Bodhi refers to Prof Watanabe (?)'s book/article. Yes, he's correct that there's no 'Pitaka' at the time of the Buddha, but why not quote from the commentaries themselves and credit them with authority, rather than using snippets which suit one's theories and then discrediting the main point that is made again and again in the commentaries, i.e that the Dhamma Vinaya includes the Abhidhamma. To quote again from passages I've given before from the Baahiranidaana (Buddhaghosa's intro to Comy to Vinaya), from the section on The First Council, (Jayawickrama's transl): >Extracts from section 16 (p.14) onwards: `"The word of the Buddha which should be known as uniform in sentiment, twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya, threefold according to the first, intermediate, and last words, and similarly as Pitakas (Baskets), fivefold according to the Nikayas (Collections), ninefold according to the Angas (Factors), and forming 84,000 divisions according to the Units of the Dhamma." ...... "How is it twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya? All this, in its entirety, is reckoned as the dhamma and the Vinaya. Herein the Basket of the Discipline is the Vinaya, the rest of the word of the Buddha is the Dhamma. Hence was it stated: 'Let us, friends, rehearse the Dhamma and the Vinaya, and I shall question Upali on the Vinaya and Ananda on the dhamma.' Thus it is twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya." ..... With regard to the term, Abhidhamma, it says: "Since here are found conditions which possess growth and their own characteristics, are revered and differentiated and said to be excellent- on account of these it is called Abhidhamma." . ..... A little later, there is a description of the 3 Pitakas, Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma: "Here follows the explanation and elucidation. These three Pitakas, indeed, according to formal analyses are said to be the authoritative injunctions, the popular teachings, and the ultimate truth respectively; or they are the discourses necessitated by transgressions, those adapted to circumstances, and those set out in accordance with reality respectively; or again, discourses on the various categories of restraint, on the refutation of heresies, and on the distinction between Name and Form , respectively. Herein, the Vinayapitaka is called the exposition of injunctions as it has been preached with a preponderance of authority by the Exalted One in whom all authority is vested; the Suttapitaka, the exposition of popular teachings as it has beem preached with great emphasis on popular ethics by the Exalted One who was proficient in popular ethics; and the Abhidhammapitaka, the exposition of ultimate truth as it has been preached with great leanings on absolute truth by the Exalted One who is adept in the absolute truths. "Likewise, the first is called the teaching necessitated by transgressions wherein those beings who are given to many misdeeds are admonished in accordance with the nature of their offences; the second, that adapted to circumstances wherein beings who are given to divers dispositions, latent tendencies, and traits of character are admonished in accordance with their adaptability; and the third, that set out in accordance with reality wherein beings who conceive of an ego and what pertains to it, only in the presence of a pile of conditions, are instructed in terms of the absolute truth....... "< **** Metta Sarah ======= #100662 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Hi Chris & all, --- On Sun, 6/9/09, christine_forsyth wrote: >Just wanted to recall where the thread started - the Yahoo system seems to break the continuity at the foot of the thread and you lose track. This is the first post: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/dhammastud ygroup/message/ 100418 ... S: It's helpful to do this sometimes, thx! Just as a side-note, usually, I think yahoo isn't to blame - the continuity of threads gets broken when either someone decides to start a new thread or intends to continue the thread, but doesn't click on the 'return' at the top of the message either in the in-box or on the web-page. Either way, of course anyone's free to start a new thread or change the subject heading anytime... Metta Sarah ======= #100663 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) sarahprocter... Dear pt, --- On Sat, 5/9/09, ptaus1 wrote: >Thanks for your reply regarding energy (#100484). I agree with you about the risk of getting lost in the concepts there, so for now I'll shelve that topic. About your reply on samatha (#100485) - I'll be glad to continue the discussion about it, especially considering that you're the greatest adversary of formal meditation on this list, so I think that if I get it right in an argument with you, then I can be certain I understand samatha properly ;-) ..... S: ;-) I think I have some keen competition with regard to the F.M. here..... ..... >But, please give me a day or two to come up with a proper ansewer as I think we have to be very precise in that discussion, otherwise we'll get into confusing concepts and relities pretty much the same like the problem with the energy discussion. .... S: sometimes we need to go in a few circles too, so let's not be concerned about any confusions along the way... Metta Sarah ====== #100664 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:48 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 5, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Question: I know already what touching is. When I touch something I know what I am touching. I know when I touch my ear or the chair. Everyone knows that. I know when I touch something which is hot. Answer: We use words and concepts in order to express what we mean. We say, for instance, that Cairo is hot or that a fire is hot. Heat itself is a reality which can be directly experienced through the bodysense without there being the need to name it. Heat is a reality which is true for everybody, it is absolute truth. When you think about Cairo or a fire you think long stories but there is no direct experience of a reality. The real purpose of Buddhism is not to theorize about the world and to form up stories about the world and about people. The aim is to develop understanding of realities such as seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or thinking, and also of visible object, sound, odour, flavour, tangible object and the objects which appear through the mind-door. These are realities which can be studied when they appear one at a time. Question: What is tangible object? Answer: The reality which can be directly experienced through the bodysense. Throughout the day we touch things which are hard. We believe that we touch a cup, plate or chair which are hard. In reality, it is hardness which is experienced through the bodysense, not a cup, plate or chair. When hardness is experienced we know through memory that there is a cup, plate or chair, but these are not realities which can be directly experienced. They are concepts or ideas we can think about. Through bodysense the realities of hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure can be experienced. They are true for everybody, no matter how we name them. They are elements which arise because of their appropriate conditions and then fall away immediately. They cannot stay on. Question: What is visible object, is it a car or TV? It seems that I can see them. Answer: Visible object is that which seeing sees. It appears through eyesense. When we perceive a car we are already thinking of a concept, an idea. Realities are physical phenomena and mental phenomena. Seeing is mental, it experiences something. Visible object, that which is visible, is physical, it does not know anything. Hearing is mental, it experiences sound. Sound is physical, it does not know anything. The experience of tangible object is mental. Tangible object is physical. The mental and physical phenomena of our life arise and then fall away immediately; they are impermanent and they are not self. ***** Nina. #100665 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta scottduncan2 Dear Sarah (and Chris), Regarding: Sarah: "And also not to be glib, but what does it mean to 'just be in this moment, fully aware'? I ask because this is exactly what the theme was of a good yoga class I went to the other day. While it's a helpful general reminder, without any understanding of namas and rupas, it won't lead to any less detachment from the idea of Atta, will it?" Scott: Again, I won't try to convince anyone about the Abhidhamma. I think it *is* glib to just repeat catch-phrases. I don't think any catch-phrase, no matter how it is worded, will be anything more than a general reminder - if it even rises to that level. Whether one states the above or something like, 'everything is satipa.t.thaana,' ;-) these will remain general at best. I can go on to suggest that I was meaning to imply a couple of things. One was momentariness, and the other was about the 'being' that is of the moment. And these implications refer to naamaa and ruupaa. And to impermance, which supports anatta and the overall unsatisfactoriness of things. In not wishing to be glib, I was anyway. I think any such phrase is; and any discussion based on such phrases is in danger of remaining glib. This is the problem with such discussions as the present one. Not to mention the, for me, useless side-taking. A study of the underpinnings of the Buddha's world view is necessary to go beyond the superficial world of feel good/sound good catch-phrases directed at some sort of generally lower level of understanding and catering to the tastes of the majority. And this is what Abhidhamma provides, as far as I am concerned. An intellectual consideration of Abhidhamma is certainly not dangerous (as some suggest) and it can lead to detachment. To use another catch-phrase however, this would only be by conditions since, as is clear, for some Abhidhamma just becomes an object of contempt. Sorry for more glibness... Sincerely, Scott. #100666 From: "ksheri3" Date: Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:45 pm Subject: DIFFERENCE by Jaq Derrida? ksheri3 Hi Lukas, Yes, you speak rather nicely about a "conditional aspect" of living, and this is why I make sure to always recognize my colleagues in this matter of "enlightenment" as being a major factor in what I consider to be "that of enlighetnement", however you seem to be under the illusion that a "friendship" cannot exist without there being the continuous and total agreement in everything and all things which exist i.e. Nama and Rupa. Isn't this, the illusion of the necessity for agreement, isn't that nothing more than part of the ILLUSION which Maya produces for you to partake of? THIS, UNFORTUNATELY, LEEDS ME RIGHT BACK TO THE DOCTRINE WHICH NECESSITITATES THE NEED FOR MEDITATION. I love it, how easily the ancients used the terminology "meditation" at the same time as using the terminology "contemplation" since they are two different and seperate things. I am only now begining to "see" the actual conflict which exists between the two terms and it brings forth such an exquisite view of the actuality of the practice of MEDITATION. -------------- > I think that only right understanding is the thing that really matters. All metaphisic is just a border. colette: WRONG WRONG WRONG! What is RIGHT UNDERSTANDING? What is REALITY? What is this thing called, which you label (name & form) as "matters"? <...> COME NOW, MY FRIEND, why would you constrain your beliefs to this delusional perspective which you adopted from the teachings of another person, WITHOUT FIRST APPLYING THE PRACTICE? Is the practice "efficacious" or is it neglicent, INERT? <...>Ah, this cognition of the difference between INVOLUNTARY PHYSICAL BEHAVIOR and VOLUNTARY PHYSICAL BEHAVIOR is just scratching the surface: does the dogs tail wag simply out of an EMOTIONAL RESPONSE TO VISUALLY SEEING ME OR HEARING MY VOICE?E Now, since you are far better than I am at repeating words that the Buddha said as if you were a recorder and actually recorder those words when they were spoken, with this as the case, why don't you help me out find the Buddha's words concerning this illusive and transient being called EMOTIONS? And to tie it in with what I was speaking to Scott about, YESTERDAY, WHICH WAS NOT PUT INTO THE GROUP,(albeit, I can easily understand why the group need not hear or read such outlandish conclusions in the Therevadan context), these emotions are real although they are NAMA AND NOT RUPA, I almost made the conclusion that Rupa was EXTERNAL and NAMA WAS/IS INTERNAL but I shy away from that stretch since I am still learning and practicing. I haven't studied the Yogachara philosophy enough to be able to make that leap of faith, yet. Nargaruna and Bavavieka are some WAY OUT THERE PRACTITIONERS. At least they don't give me headaches like Jaq. Derrida gives me when I read them. And that, the resultant headaches I got, is exactly the same as the headaches I got from reading THE ILLUMINATUS TRIOLOGY back in the early 1990s, and damn, I never got to correspond nor question my colleague Mr. R.A.Wilson about his methodology (it took me more than a year to read that single book, THE ILLUMINATUS TRILOGY). You don't know how important to me that is, that I correspond and actually have a relationship with people that study what I love studying and practicing, MAGIK. <...> thanks. gotta go. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear colette, > > I,ve got some second-hand story. > I dont remember it now, because it was long ago since I've heard it. So forgive me if i change something. > > #100667 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:59 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Howard (1000639) > Just a thought: If wishes were gold, we would be Midas! ;-) And two > more thoughts (from the Buddha) are appended at the end. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains â€" going far, > its current swift, carrying everything with it â€" and a man would open > channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle > of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, > its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In > the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, > hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, > ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, > when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what > is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, > to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior > human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is > impossible/ > > (From the Avarana Sutta) Thanks for bringing to our attention this passage from the Avarana Sutta (AN 5.51), dealing with the 5 hindrances. I read the passage as pointing out that whenever the 5 hindrances are present in a person who is of limited understanding and who does not know kusala from akusala, the person cannot attain enlightenment (nor, perhaps, develop the path). Is this your reading also? Jon #100668 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:22 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Question: I find it difficult to understand that there is no self. How can I learn to experience the truth? Answer: The truth of non-self cannot be realized in the beginning. We have accumulated so much ignorance and wrong view. Through reading, considering and discussing there can gradually be more intellectual understanding of realities. Thus, conditions are being built up for direct awareness of realities and then understanding can grow. It develops in stages very gradually and eventually realities can be seen as they are. Question: How can one be aware of realities? Answer: There is seeing now. It can be realized that it is a reality which experiences visible object, just for a moment. It is not self which sees, seeing sees. You don't have to do anything special in order to see. When there are conditions for seeing you can't help but see. Is seeing permanent? You cannot go on seeing. When hearing arises there is another reality; there can't be seeing at the same time. One reality can be studied at a time as it appears. When there are the right conditions there can be direct understanding of a mental phenomenon as only a reality and of a physical phenomenon as only a reality. These can be realized as different types of realities. We should not wish to have awareness; we should always remember that the goal is right understanding of realities. Whenever there is awareness of one reality which appears there can be direct understanding of it and thus understanding can grow. Question: What do you mean by understanding seeing as only a reality? Answer: One begins to understand that there is not my seeing which can stay on and which is so important. The idea of self cannot be eradicated immediately, but one begins to see that there are realities appearing one at a time. One begins to understand that seeing or visible object can only arise when there are conditions for their arising and that one cannot control them. Realities are beyond control, they cannot arise because of anyone's wish. Also awareness and understanding are realities which can only arise when there are the right conditions, they are beyond control. Beyond control is another way of saying that there is "only a reality". The realities of our life are momentary and insignificant. They arise and then disappear forever. ****** Nina. #100669 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:51 am Subject: three levels of pa~n~naa nilovg Dear friends, I heard this on a recording: < There are three levels of pa~n~naa: the first one is understanding stemming from listening to the Dhamma, sutta maya ~naa.na (sutta: what is heard). We hear what we never heard before. We learn more about seeing: what type of reality it is. The characteristics of realities are not yet known, there is attaa sa~n~naa, remembrance of realities as self. We hear about the different feelings but we do not know yet the characteristic of the reality that feels. The second level of pa~n~naa is cinta maya ~naa.na (cinta: what is considered). The characteristics of realities appear to sati and one begins to understand that this is the reality that experiences and that is the reality that does not experience anything. Not all realities can be known immediately. One begins to understand what naturally appears and this is different from just knowing names and concepts. If characteristics are not known we drown in the sea of concepts and names. The third level is bhaavana maya ~naa.na (bhaavana: development): developing understanding of the truth of the reality appearing through any of the six doorways and understanding that they have conditions for their arising. One knows reality in accordance with what we have studied before. One may wish for the arising of sati without there being pa~n~naa of the first level, understanding stemming from listening, but this is impossible. When there is the second level of understanding, one need not ask someone else about the characteristics of realities. One develops 'one's own' pa~n~naa.> ****** Nina. #100670 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:38 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (52) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ As to the proximate cause, as we have seen, the element of wind (air) or motion plays its specific role in the intimating of intention by bodily movement or gestures. We are inclined to take intimation as belonging to self, but bodily intimation is only a kind of ruupa, originated by citta. There is no person who communicates by gestures. Are we aware of naama and ruupa when we gesticulate? Are there kusala cittas or akusala cittas at such moments? Most of the time akusala cittas arise, but we do not notice it. Do we realize which type of citta conditions the bodily intimation when we wave to someone else in order to greet him, when we gesticulate in order to tell him to come nearer, when we nod our head while we agree with something or shake it while we deny something? Such gestures are part of our daily routine and it seems that we make them automatically. Perhaps we never considered what types of citta condition them. Akusala citta conditions bodily intimation, for example, when we with mimics ridicule someone else or show our contempt for him. In such cases it is obvious that there is akusala citta. We should remember that bodily intimation is more often conditioned by akusala citta than by kusala citta. There may be subtle clinging that is not so obvious while we are expressing our intention by gestures. When mindfulness arises we can find out whether kusala citta or akusala citta motivates our gestures. Someone may also commit akusala kamma through bodily intimation, for example when he gives by gesture orders to kill. Kusala cittas may condition bodily intimation when we, for example, stretch out our arms to welcome people to our home, when we stretch out our hand in order to give something, when we point out the way to someone who is in a strange city, when we by our gestures express courtesy or when we show respect to someone who deserves respect. However, we may also perform such actions because of selfish motives, or we may be insincere, and then akusala cittas condition bodily intimation. More knowledge about citta and ruupas which are conditioned by citta can remind us to be aware of whatever reality appears, also while gesticulating. Then akusala citta has no opportunity to arise at such moments. ------------------------------ Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech to be continued. with metta, Han #100671 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:07 am Subject: Yamaka Pali hantun1 Dear Chew (Nina and Sarah), I did not know that Yamaka Pali will be so voluminous and so very difficult. My grandson sent me the following books from Yangon, all in Burmese language. (1) Yamaka Pali in three volumes. (2) "Nissaya" method of Burmese translation in two volumes. [it is not straight-forward translation, and very complicated] (3) Commentary in Burmese, titled "Ayakauk". [it is a 800 page-giant and very difficult] I do not think I can understand this subject without a good teacher. Perhaps, the English translation that you are reading might help me. Can you kindly buy the English book and send it to me by post, and allow me to reimburse the cost? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #100672 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:04 am Subject: Re: "No Time" by the Guess Who scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding: c: "Scott, WHAT? where did I say or even suggest that Rupa has no characteristics?...The first and formeost requirement of 'conceptualization' is the distinction between that which is and that which is not. This same practice is used in the Buddhist analysis. So Please, ENLIGHTEN ME, where the hell would I suggest that 'a thing' has no substantiation and therefore no characteristics? (You Theravadans are gonna love what I'm doin' and it will come back to you although I am certain that you will verify my applications and those scum that leach upon me as a MAGE and as a Shaman, will show themselves, CLEARLY, as being negative aspects of the Buddha's proclamations...Help me and my stupidity, help me, Scott, where the hell did I suggest that RUPA is without characteristics?" Scott: I may have misunderstood you but it was here (#100577): c: "let go of that damned VALUE STRUCTURE and the only vindication that RUPA actually exists. RUPA HAS NO SVABHAVA. RUPA HAS NO ULTIMATE TRUTH. LET IT GO." Scott: See what I mean? Again, I may have MISCONSTRUED THE WHOLE THING. And it doesn't matter - I'm just enjoying the chat! c: "Palease, <.....>I have no ability to percieve where you came up with this hallucination that I spoke of Rupa as having no physical representation at all and that it was only a physical representation within the mind?" Scott: Yeah. Had you said so I'd have disagreed. 'NO SVABHAVA' might have thrown me, though. c: "ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT: because you are in an Aristocratic class or Aristocratic Caste, U LIFE are you suggesting that my interpretations are nothing more than FALSE and nothing more than WORTHLESS since my interpretations are not a part of your caste or class? Is there a single line, as if it were a 'command line' in a computer's operating system, is there a single line which controls as many robots as possible?" Scott: No. None of the above is correct. It is possible, though, that 'svabhava', which must be Sanskrit (?), differs in meaning from the Paa.li 'sabhaava.' c: "DIDN'T THE BUDDHA SAY: 'CHOSE TO MAKE TO MAKE YOUR LIFE A LAMP. LET 'TRUTH' BE YOUR 'LIGHT'?" Scott: I've heard something like that, do you have a reference to the texts (says the bookworm)? c: "[Psst, I tried it out, last week and found that this work called 'the Abhidharma' is without a doubt a Jewel..." Scott: Agreed. colette: "FINE. You are correct. Rupa has to have characteristics. Do not exclude Nama from having characteristics, however. If Rupa did not have characteristics then how could you COGNIZE it? How could your eye-consciousness see it, how could your ear consciousness hear it, how could your body, tactile-consciousnes feel it, etc?" Scott: Oh, sorry, this was what I was trying to get at. Now, with this sudden RAY OF SUNSHINE I suffer from the WHIPLASH I get when I ride the mind as it races on. c: "Pardon me, and do not think that I am laughing at you!" Scott: No, you are always very kind to me! c: "You have a VERY LONG WAY TO GO IN THE ACTUAL PRACTTICE OF MEDITATION. I cannot spoon feed you this stuff. No person can spoon feed you this stuff. you have to actually participate in it and actually practice it. AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, that you have not yet reached levels at which you can 'bounce around' while at the same time maintaining a single consciousness. Don't worry! If you try and you maintain the procedures of MEDITATION, then it is a certainty that you will achieve it." Scott: It's true, colette. I have a very, very long way to go. I take the long-view and imagine that in some life or other conditions might be such that the development of wholesomeness will be furthered. Thanks for always being patient with me. Later! Sincerely, Scott. #100674 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:04 pm Subject: Re: Yamaka Pali chewsadhu Dear Han, Here is the link to download Sacca Yamaka English translation: http://sites.google.com/site/saccayamaka20081107/Home/5-sacca-yamaka-palienglish\ .pdf/ If you also want to listen to Sayadaw U Nandamala talks on Sacca Yamaka in English, you can download the talks at: http://saccayamaka.blogspot.com/ Sacca Yamaka is the 5th chapter of Yamaka. May be you can start from this chapter. Sadhu. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100675 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) sarahprocter... Dear pt & all, (I still have a shoulder and neck problem, so some days I can't use the computer at all - I won't apologise for any delays:-)) #100562 on samatha --- On Wed, 9/9/09, ptaus1 wrote: >> Sarah: Focussing on 'energy channels' is not samatha bhavana. >pt: Here I think we first need to define what does "focussing" mean, to make sure we're on the same page. In my understanding, it refers to several cetasikas operating at the same time, in particular, concentration, attention and perception, as well as vitakka and vicara. Therefore, whether "focussing" is kusala or akusala would depend on the jati of the citta, i.e. whether it is accompanied by kusala or akusla roots. So, as far as I understand, it would not depend on the object â€" whether it’s breath, or kasina, or â€Å"energy-channel� â€" all these are just concepts that can become an object of a citta, and thus qualify as an object of samatha bhavana, if the citta is kusala. .... S: Yes, I agree with you that it all comes down to the jati or kind of citta - whether it's kusala or akusala. Only panna will know. Usually, what we'd refer to as 'focussing' or concentrating on the energy channels will be with akusala cittas. .... >> Sarah: [butting in, do you see "energy channel" as included in any of the given objects of samatha? >pt: Out of the 40 traditionally given, I’m not sure, but I think it could be a concept used for air kasina, sort of like a concept of the breath is used. Both are wind rupas, but it’s the concept of them that is used as the object of samatha. Kind of like when the white of the bone, or teeth, or anywhere else where white is seen, can be used as the white kasina object. .... S: OK, but it doesn't become samatha just because there is a focussing on air kasina, breath, a white kasina object or anything else. Almost any concentration we're aware of (at any level) in a day is akusala. [By the way, with regard to your quip about my being opposed to 'formal meditation', I'd say this isn't true. I have no object to anyone following any kind of meditation, but if they argue that this is what the Buddha taught or that it is samatha or vipassana bhavana, I'm likely to question it:-)] .... >> Sarah: How would it condition calm, as opposed to concentration with lobha?] >pt: You mean that the object is supposed to condition calm? I didn’t realize that an object could condition calm, I though it has to do with roots of the citta â€" i.e. if there’s understanding present as a root at the moment, then calm will also accompany the citta regardless of what’s the object. .... S: Yes, good point - it's the citta and other mental factors which condition calm. However, this depends on the object too. For example, there may be wise reflection now on death and how it can come at any moment at all. Such a reflection with such an object may condition calm. When it comes to the energy channels, much as I have an interest in them as you know, I'm not sure how any focussing on them (or focussing on anything, for that matter) conditions calm. So, I wouldn't say it's regardless of the object. If we're talking about satipatthana and the calm which accompanies it, then any reality as object can be the condition or arammana paccaya. Anyway, I'll be glad to hear any further comments you have. An interesting topic. ..... >> Sarah: Yes, all dhammas are anatta, so it'll just depend on conditions what is the object at any given moment. What is the purpose of specially attending to kasina, breath or channel-concept in the above case? .... >pt: This seems a bit like an unfair question - because it presupposes a doer with a â€Å"special� purpose, i.e.. lobha and dosa. .... S: Yes, I think it does. .... >As you said, it’s up to conditions what will the object be at the moment. There’s no doer. Therefore, depending on accumulations, the attention would tend to focus more on texts, or breath, music, TV, kasina, etc. .... S: OK, but this is not the same as a special focussing in order to have more calm, is it? .... >So, it’s not about the purpose but whether the citta is kusala or not. I mean, regardless of whether there’s focussing on texts, or kasina, or energy channel, there will be kusala and akusala cittas arising, irrespective of the object. .... S: Yes, there will, but I also think it's all about the purpose. For example, with your first example of the texts - there's a difference between focussing on the texts to have more calm or understanding with an expectation or wish for such (i.e. lobha) and a focussing or studying naturally out of (kusala) interest or seeing the value of such. Not sure if that's clear... (I'm getting distracted by the pain in my shoulder or what is taken for such - not sure if more or less focus on the 'energy channels' would help:-)). .... <....> >> Sarah: I would see it more the other way round - if there's not any dana, sila or bhavana, then it's akusala. >pt: Well, what I was describing was my understanding of â€Å"bhavana� â€" there’s understanding of the concept being the object at the moment â€" so no identification with it through moha, and there’s no lobha and dosa (trying to force the attention to stay on the object, or being bored by it), meaning that adosa and alobha are present with understanding (panna) at that moment. Is this any different to what you understand as â€Å"bhavana�? .... S: It's not satipatthana because we're talking about an understanding of a concept. I don't see how what you refer to is samatha bhavana either, because what does the understanding understand in a kusala way at that moment? .... >> Sarah: Lobha and moha can so very easily be taken for kusala. What is the purpose of selecting and focussing on an object of meditation if not a desire for a result, such as calm or concentration? >pt: This is again a loaded question as before, which presupposes a doer, so my reply is as before - there’s no doer, it’s all down to accumulations what object attention goes to and focusses on at the moment. Whatever it is (texts, breath, etc), it’s the presence of panna that will make the citta kusala or not, and both kinds will inevitably arise regardless of how we call the outward activity conventionally â€" studying, hearing a dhamma talk, jhana development, being kind, eating apples, formal meditation, watching TV, being generous, etc, as each of these activities will consist of many, many kusala and akusala moments (not counting vipaka and kiriya moments). .... S: Yes, this is very well said. However, in order for panna to make its presence, there has to be understanding of the object in a kusala way at such a time. As you say, it's not about the situation or activity. This is why we cannot say there's necessarily any calm whilst focussing in formal meditation, eating apples or studying a text. If, however, we believe that focussing in f.m. or on energy channels or studying texts is the way to have more calm, we can be sure that there are bound to be many akusala moments, including the only obstacle to the development of satipatthana, i.e miccha ditthi. I'll look forward to any further discussion with you p.t. or anyone. While I'm somewhat incapacitated, grateful for any other contributions and assistance too. Metta Sarah ======= #100676 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/16/2009 1:00:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (1000639) > Just a thought: If wishes were gold, we would be Midas! ;-) And two > more thoughts (from the Buddha) are appended at the end. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains â€" going far, > its current swift, carrying everything with it â€" and a man would open > channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle > of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, > its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In > the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, > hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, > ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, > when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what > is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, > to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior > human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is > impossible/ > > (From the Avarana Sutta) Thanks for bringing to our attention this passage from the Avarana Sutta (AN 5.51), dealing with the 5 hindrances. I read the passage as pointing out that whenever the 5 hindrances are present in a person who is of limited understanding and who does not know kusala from akusala, the person cannot attain enlightenment (nor, perhaps, develop the path). Is this your reading also? ------------------------------------------------------ I believe that is included, though I think that it relates more to a habitual matter (the lasting strength of the hindrances more than their momentary flaring), and I also would point out that the suppressing of the hindrances is tied in with the jhanas. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) Jon #100677 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali hantun1 Dear Chew, Chew: Here is the link to download Sacca Yamaka English translation: http://sites.google.com/site/saccayamaka20081107/Home/5-sacca-yamaka-palienglish\ .pdf/ If you also want to listen to Sayadaw U Nandamala talks on Sacca Yamaka in English, you can download the talks at: http://saccayamaka.blogspot.com/ Sacca Yamaka is the 5th chapter of Yamaka. May be you can start from this chapter. -------------------- Han: Thank you very much for your kind help. I read the English translation of Sacca Yamaka, together with the Burmese Pali text, and the Burmese translation. I am beginning get some idea now. It is so difficult that I need the English translation to understand the Burmese translation! But I will still have to take a long time to understand it better. I will try my best. Thank you very much, Chew. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! for your dhamma daana. Respectfully, Han #100678 From: "ksheri3" Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:30 pm Subject: "Nothing really matters, anyone can see" Queen ksheri3 Oh jeeze, what a common DISTORTION. GOOD MORNING SCOTT, Jeeze, c'mon Scott, don't try that old scam on me! Let me ask you: which is your common denominator: is it LIFE or LIVING OR DEATH? If you would have considered my words from the 'LIVING' side of things then you would have concluded an explicit and vibrant TRUTH HOWEVER,<.....>you chose to exploit some hallucinegenic as your means which can bring you forth to your glory and your ultimate objective, goal, motivation, INTNETION, YOU CHOSE THE WRONG COMMON DENOMINATOR TO ACQUIRE A PERSONAL GOAL. > Scott: I may have misunderstood you but it was here (#100577): > colette: OUI, SCOTT, you chose to MISS UNDERSTAND and MISS DIRECT. Did you make this choice of your own or was this choice programmed within you, just as my dogs wag their tail when they hear my voice and they know that I am there? See Pavlov, since you may not have read my post to Lucas. -------------------- > > Scott: Yeah. Had you said so I'd have disagreed. 'NO SVABHAVA' might have thrown me, though. > colette: THAT PISSES THE HELL OUT OF ME! HOW THE HELL CAN YOU GO AND DICTATE TO ANOTHER PERSON WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT WHEN YOU BASE YOUR CONCLUSIONS UPON THIS TOTALLY IGNORANT POSITION OF RELATIVE TRUTH? SVABHAVA IS ONE OF THE MOST FOUNDATIONAL ASPECTS OF ANY MONOTHEISTIC BELIEF STRUCTURE. Yea, I know, the Hindus are just as violent as the Muslims since the Sunnis cannot reach any agreement with the Shias and we find in the Hindus that this Shiva is sooooooooooo distorted and contrived that it becomes this Krishna and visa versa, that the entire thought, the entire dream, of somehow creating a single belief structure is without merit. It's an actual definition of INSANITY. ------------------------ > > Scott: No. None of the above is correct. It is possible, though, that 'svabhava', which must be Sanskrit (?), differs in meaning from the Paa.li 'sabhaava.' > colette:yes, from what little I have found out the hindu term svabhava is equal to the buddhist term sabhaava. about the preceding words which you used to preface your statement about svabhava (i.e. ulitimate truth, not that relative shit), WELLLLLL, fine, for a student of the practice. It's good that you took that foundational aspect and have cemented it within your foundational consciousness, HOWEVER, damn, you're gonna run into my exact words which are exact truths about how the 21st Century world works and you're gonna find some real contradictions that you cannot possibly resolve as long as you maintain a certain level of education. You'll have to realize that "Time" passes. You have to realize that time was there before you arived and time will be there after you leave. I hope you will not be one of those dreamerz that think they can change TIME. You can, however, give those scum that write history books and predjudice philosophy and reality (i.e. nama and rupa) you can give them the right to exist and to possess that which they saught throughout their entire existance. <...> Come now Scott, stop obsessing over these simple little things that are important but are not that important. Scott, let life exist. Let life be. Stop trying to force yourself to "be" and therefore to verify that life exists. Try letting yourself to Not BE. Try letting yourself follow the doctrine of Shunyata, NOTHINGNESS, become NOTHING and let the wind pass through you. DO NOT CLING! ALLOW MAYA TO EXIST AND TO HAVE HER ILLUSIONS. THE BUDDHA SURELY DIDN'T COME FROM TIBET, HE WAS BORN AND RAISED IN INDIA UNDER BRAHMAN LAWS. SURELY HE KNOWS OF MAYA AND SURELY HE ADVISED AGAINST DEVOTIONS TO MAYA? I'm glad that we can discuss this further. I look forward to more discussion if I get the time. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear colette, > > Regarding: > > c: "Scott, WHAT? where did I say or even suggest that Rupa has no characteristics?...The first and formeost requirement of 'conceptualization' is the distinction between that which is and that which is not. This same practice is used in the Buddhist analysis. So Please, ENLIGHTEN ME, where the hell would I suggest that 'a thing' has no substantiation and therefore no characteristics? (You Theravadans are gonna love what I'm doin' and it will come back to you although I am certain that you will verify my applications and those scum that leach upon me as a MAGE and as a Shaman, will show themselves, CLEARLY, as being negative aspects of the Buddha's proclamations...Help me and my stupidity, help me, Scott, where the hell did I suggest that RUPA is without characteristics?" > > Scott: I may have misunderstood you but it was here (#100577): <...> #100679 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:12 pm Subject: As if in the Master's Presence! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Contemplating the Qualities of the Buddha: Worthy, honourable and perfectly self-Enlightened is the Buddha! Consummated in knowledge and behaviour, totally transcended, expert in all dimensions, knower of all worlds, unsurpassable trainer of those who can be tamed, both teacher and guide of gods as well as of humans, blessed, exalted, awakened and enlightened is the Buddha !!! When a bhikkhu is devoted to this recollection of the Buddha, he is respectful and deferential towards the Master. He attains fullness of faith, awareness, understanding and merit. He has much happiness and gladness. He conquers fear and dread. He is able to endure pain. He comes to feel as if he were living in the Master's presence...! And his body, when dwelling in he recollection of the Buddha's special qualities, becomes as worthy of veneration, just like as a shrine room. His mind tends towards the plane of the Buddhas. When he encounters an opportunity for transgression, he has acute awareness of conscience and shame as vivid as though he were face to face with the Master. If he penetrates no higher, he is at least headed for a happy destiny. Now when a man is truly wise, His constant task will surely be This recollection of the Buddha Blessed with such mighty potency. Vism I 213 <...> Have a nice remembering day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <....> #100680 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali hantun1 Dear Chew, Chew: If you also want to listen to Sayadaw U Nandamala talks on Sacca Yamaka in English, you can download the talks at: http://saccayamaka.blogspot.com/ ------------------- Han: I have listened to the first talk on Introduction to Yamaka. Sayadaw explained very clearly. It will help me a great deal to understand the subject. Thank you very much once again. Respectfully, Han #100681 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:50 am Subject: Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . kenhowardau Hi Jon, Thanks for your reply. I have been even slower than usual with my recent postings. Too many distractions! ----------------- (100598) > J: > I think this kind of knowledge would be the province of Buddhas and > their chief > disciples. > > > KH: > > That's what I would have thought too. I wish the question had occurred > to me sooner! > > Or have people been trying to tell me that all along? :-) J: > Not as far as I know. I don't remember that the point has come up in the discussion before now, at least not so directly. Is this what you've been saying all along? ;-)) ------------ Probably. Although my thinking has been so muddled I am not sure what I was saying. I have had a similar problem before. For example, years ago, when we first met at Noosa, I asked you and Sarah about parents. The ancient texts tell us quite dogmatically that parents are wonderful: even if we "carry them on our shoulders for a thousand years (etc)" we still won't have repaid the debt we owe them. This dogmatic language seems quite incongruous. (Especially when we know there are some bad parents.) So I asked you rhetorically, which of the paramattha dhammas was called "parent?" Looking for someone to blame for my muddled thinking :-) I might point to the way DSG and the recorded talks (with K Sujin) occasionally treat concepts as if they were dhammas. You will remember the talk in which K S was asked about sexual misconduct with regard to the precepts. She was quite adamant that sex between unmarried people was a breach of the precepts. (Because unmarried women were still under the care and protection of their parents or guardians.) I am sure some people at the meeting would have been thinking "Won't that depend on cultural traditions and other circumstances?" But K Sujin was quite adamant. ---------- <. . .> J: > OK, I think I see what you were getting at. Yes, knowledge of the particular gait is not necessary for direct understanding of a nama or rupa that is a part of the act of walking (although surely this would in fact be known to the monk). ----------- It's only a minor point and I wouldn't want to appear argumentative. But (as we all agree) walking is not a paramattha dhamma. It is not an object of knowing (panna), it is an object of thinking. We can describe the difference between walking and running, but ultimately that tells us nothing. So I see no relevance whatsoever in whether a monk can or cannot correctly name his conventional activity. What if (perhaps suffering from a temporary mental disorder) he thinks he is walking when he is actually running? He can still have right understanding of nama and rupa, can't he? ------------------ <. . .> J: > Likewise, knowledge of whether the present arising alobha cetasika forms part of an act of dana (and thus is kamma patha) is not necessary for the direct understanding of that alobha cetasika. Was that the only sticking point? -------------------- Thinking about it, I see that quite a lot of Dhamma study revolves around concepts. Kamma-pathas, for example. So there will be further occasions when I get a bit stuck. No doubt putting too many things in the acinteyya tray. :-) Ken H #100682 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) ptaus1 Dear Sarah, > (I still have a shoulder and neck problem, so some days I can't use the computer at all - I won't apologise for any delays:-)) pt: Wishing you a speedy recovery. > >pt: Out of the 40 traditionally given, I’m not sure, but I think it could be a concept used for air kasina, sort of like a concept of the breath is used. Both are wind rupas, but it’s the concept of them that is used as the object of samatha. Kind of like when the white of the bone, or teeth, or anywhere else where white is seen, can be used as the white kasina object. > .... > S: OK, but it doesn't become samatha just because there is a focussing on air kasina, breath, a white kasina object or anything else. Almost any concentration we're aware of (at any level) in a day is akusala. pt: Agreed, so for "focussing, concentration, samatha, etc" to be kusala, there'd have to be panna at the moment. As to what kind of panna that would be, more below. > S: [By the way, with regard to your quip about my being opposed to 'formal meditation', I'd say this isn't true. I have no object to anyone following any kind of meditation, but if they argue that this is what the Buddha taught or that it is samatha or vipassana bhavana, I'm likely to question it:-)] pt: Okay:) > S: Yes, good point - it's the citta and other mental factors which condition calm. However, this depends on the object too. For example, there may be wise reflection now on death and how it can come at any moment at all. Such a reflection with such an object may condition calm. When it comes to the energy channels, much as I have an interest in them as you know, I'm not sure how any focussing on them (or focussing on anything, for that matter) conditions calm. So, I wouldn't say it's regardless of the object. pt: Hm, yes, I think you're right, but I don't know it precisely either. We agree on the bottom line that it's the kusala citta that matters in the end. As regards specific samatha objects - perhaps it again has to do with accumulations? I mean, breath might work better for some, while metta would work better for others, etc. - there are specific objects outlined for people of different temperaments, and what are temperaments other than accumulations pretty much? And if I remember rightly, different objects are also applicable in different situations, so it's probably also up to panna to know which object is most applicable at the moment. > > pt: As you said, it's up to conditions what will the object be at the moment. There's no doer. Therefore, depending on accumulations, the attention would tend to focus more on texts, or breath, music, TV, kasina, etc. > .... > S: OK, but this is not the same as a special focussing in order to have more calm, is it? > .... pt: Well, if there's no panna at the moment to understand that lobha is behind the present intention to focus on the object - then it will be akusala. That's probably the very first mistake anyone makes when attempting "meditation" for the first time (of first few hundred times). But hopefully, at some point there comes a realisation that this doesn't really work. And then usually there's a natural settling on whatever object (i.e. without lobha or dosa), and then for the first time there's a little bit of understanding of the difference between kusala and akusala, which gradually becomes more sharp. In fact, what I just wrote is pretty much exactly what you're saying below: > S: Yes, there will, but I also think it's all about the purpose. For example, with your first example of the texts - there's a difference between focussing on the texts to have more calm or understanding with an expectation or wish for such (i.e. lobha) and a focussing or studying naturally out of (kusala) interest or seeing the value of such. Not sure if that's clear... pt: However, whatever the object, there will still be both kusala and akusala moments, and realizing the difference between the two is what matters in the end, though it happens entirely on its own. > >pt: Well, what I was describing was my understanding of "bhavana" - there's understanding of the concept being the object at the moment - so no identification with it through moha, and there's no lobha and dosa (trying to force the attention to stay on the object, or being bored by it), meaning that adosa and alobha are present with understanding (panna) at that moment. Is this any different to what you understand as "bhavana"? > .... > S: It's not satipatthana because we're talking about an understanding of a concept. pt: Agreed, it's not satipatthana directly - though it can happen accidentally so to speak every time the attention skips away from the samatha object. But that's not the issue at the moment. > S: I don't see how what you refer to is samatha bhavana either, because what does the understanding understand in a kusala way at that moment? pt: It knows the difference between a moment with sati and a moment without sati for example. Or in more general terms, it knows the difference between akusala and kusala moments. So for example, when attention skips form the object (as a concept of breath) to a desire to focus stronger on that concept, panna recognises it as a hindrance that has arisen (a few akusala cittas that just happened) and in that recognition - a few kusala cittas happen on their own. Of course, for someone who's not yet reached jhana, this alteration between kusala-akusla will keep happening, and that's how panna gets sharpened gradually - pretty much as a byproduct. However, it is not yet nama-rupa insight stage of panna, though that might happen on its own as well, if there's no jhana (and akusala) cittas at the moment. > S: However, in order for panna to make its presence, there has to be understanding of the object in a kusala way at such a time. As you say, it's not about the situation or activity. This is why we cannot say there's necessarily any calm whilst focussing in formal meditation, eating apples or studying a text. If, however, we believe that focussing in f.m. or on energy channels or studying texts is the way to have more calm, we can be sure that there are bound to be many akusala moments, including the only obstacle to the development of satipatthana, i.e miccha ditthi. pt: Agreed. I don't know many formal meditators, but from limited experience, I'd say that almost every sincere meditator recognises miccha ditthi from experience very soon in the practice, and is from then on very careful about it, even though s/he might not be able to explain it properly to others, and that's why the arguments happen I think. I've heard the right/wrong view experience described as "doer/no doer, tension/relaxation, grasping/non-grasping, watcher/observer" and many others. So for someone who doesn't know much about texts, this basic experience of panna seeing the kusala/akusala difference is what f.m. is all about and they will defend f.m. on their lives - in effect they are standing up for panna, not for a particular method, even though they might not realize it. But, no sure way to know what goes on in someone's head. Best wishes pt #100683 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:08 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 5, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 6. Further Interviews between Gabi, Alan and Nina in Egypt. Question: What should one do in order to live according to the Buddhist teachings? Answer: One should develop right understanding of the teachings by reading, considering and discussion. One should apply the teachings in one's life as best as one can. Question: When one develops understanding is one not preoccupied only with one's own mental progress and is this not a selfish attitude? Answer: No, one develops more understanding of the world in and around oneself. The self is not a reality. As understanding develops there will be less concern about the self. We have accumulated so much ignorance and this conditions many kinds of defilements. When ignorance is eliminated there will be less unwholesomeness and this is beneficial for oneself and for the people around oneself. Question: I do not feel that I have a great deal of ignorance. I know how to do my work, how to drive a car or how to cook. Answer: We have ignorance of realities such as seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, of all the realities which can be experienced through the five senses and through the mind-door. They appear only one at a time through one of the six doorways. They appear only for one moment and then they disappear. We are deluded about these fleeting realities and we take them for the world or the self. We mix up the six doorways and we join the different realities together instead of understanding realities as they are, as only fleeting elements which appear, one at a time. We think that realities can stay on. We have ignorance and wrong view. Would you like to understand that there is no self? Nothing belongs to you in reality. Question: Is it not the self which performs deeds, which decides to do this or that? Is it not the self which makes the effort to achieve the goal? Answer: Intention is a mental reality; it arises when there are the appropriate conditions. However, there is nobody who owns intention. It is the same with effort. It is a mental reality which arises because of conditions. There is nobody who can make effort arise, who owns effort. ******* Nina. #100684 From: Geri geri Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali sac9090 Hi All, What's Yamaka Pali? JC ________________________________ Chew: If you also want to listen to Sayadaw U Nandamala talks on Sacca Yamaka in English, you can download the talks at: http://saccayamaka. blogspot. com/ <...> #100685 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali ptaus1 Hi JC, Yamaka is the sixth book of the abhidhamma pitaka - there are seven all together: 1. Dhammasangani 2. Vibhanga 3. Dhatukatha 4. Puggalapannatti 5. Kathavatthu 6. Yamaka 7. Patthana Pali is the language in which these books were originally written down. There's no English translation of Yamaka yet, but Chew has provided us there with English translation (as well as audio lectures) of one part of Yamaka - many thanks Chew! Best wishes pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Geri geri wrote: > > Hi All, > What's Yamaka Pali? > J #100686 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Howard (100676) > I read the passage as pointing out that whenever the 5 hindrances are > present in a person who is of limited understanding and who does not know > kusala from akusala, the person cannot attain enlightenment (nor, perhaps, > develop the path). Is this your reading also? > ------------------------------------------------------ > I believe that is included, though I think that it relates more to a > habitual matter (the lasting strength of the hindrances more than their > momentary flaring), > =============== To my understanding, however, there is no "lasting strength" of a defilement apart from its momentary flaring. That is to say, when a hindrance is not actually present, it has no effect. For example, at a moment of lobha, there is no dosa having effect; at a moment of kusala -- or of vipaka or kiriya -- there is no akusala of any kind having effect. =============== > and I also would point out that the suppressing of the > hindrances is tied in with the jhanas. =============== Yes, the attainment of jhana temporarily suppresses the hindrances from arising. But as just mentioned, the hindrances are also not present at other times too. Furthermore, it is clear from the Satipatthana Sutta the 5 hindrances are not per se an obstacle to the arising of awareness: "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in mental objects? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances? "Here, O bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.'... (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html) Thus consciousness with awareness can arise interspersed with akusala consciousness. To my reading, the passage highlights the need for a certain level of panna ("discernment" in the translation quoted) in order for any attainment to be realised. It has no implications for the role of jhana in the development of awareness. Jon #100687 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:25 am Subject: Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . jonoabb Hi KenH (100681) > I have had a similar problem before. For example, years ago, when we > first met at Noosa, I asked you and Sarah about parents. The ancient > texts tell us quite dogmatically that parents are wonderful: even if we > "carry them on our shoulders for a thousand years (etc)" we still won't > have repaid the debt we owe them. =============== I'm not sure why this passage is seen as being dogmatic. As we know, the Buddha simply explained what *is* (not what should be done). In this case he is illustrating the extent of one's indebtedness to those who brought one into the world in this lifetime. I understand the passage to be illustrative, hypothetical even ("even if one were to do such and such it would not sufficiently repay... ") rather than to be suggesting a particular form of conduct to be followed. =============== This dogmatic language seems quite > incongruous. (Especially when we know there are some bad parents.) =============== I suppose the emphasis is on the fact of bringing one into the world. =============== So I > asked you rhetorically, which of the paramattha dhammas was called > "parent?" =============== Yes, or "spouse" or "good friend in the dhamma" or "Buddha" or "stream-enterer". There's no reason why such a question need be a rhetorical one ;-)) A perfectly valid, and useful, line of inquiry. =============== > Looking for someone to blame for my muddled thinking :-) I might point > to the way DSG and the recorded talks (with K Sujin) occasionally treat > concepts as if they were dhammas. You will remember the talk in which K > S was asked about sexual misconduct with regard to the precepts. She was > quite adamant that sex between unmarried people was a breach of the > precepts. (Because unmarried women were still under the care and > protection of their parents or guardians.) > > I am sure some people at the meeting would have been thinking "Won't > that depend on cultural traditions and other circumstances?" But K Sujin > was quite adamant. =============== But is this a case of "treating concepts as if they were dhammas"? Or simply a view as to the meaning of the precept. =============== > It's only a minor point and I wouldn't want to appear argumentative. > But (as we all agree) walking is not a paramattha dhamma. It is not an > object of knowing (panna), it is an object of thinking. > > We can describe the difference between walking and running, but > ultimately that tells us nothing. So I see no relevance whatsoever in > whether a monk can or cannot correctly name his conventional activity. > What if (perhaps suffering from a temporary mental disorder) he thinks > he is walking when he is actually running? He can still have right > understanding of nama and rupa, can't he? =============== Yes, it's of no significance whether the person correctly knows in conventional terms his/her present mode of activity. But I don't think anyone was suggesting that it was (only that the direct understanding of a presently arising dhamma does not preclude that kind of conventional knowledge). =============== > Thinking about it, I see that quite a lot of Dhamma study revolves > around concepts. Kamma-pathas, for example. =============== *All* Dhamma study involves concepts. Nothing new there. Or is there? ;-)) Jon #100688 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:27 am Subject: Re: "Nothing really matters, anyone can see" Queen scottduncan2 Dear colette, Thanks for the ongoing discussion. I guess svabhava and sabhaava are somewhat the same, eh? I'd say ruupa has characteristics and I guess you think so too. Where should the discussion go from here? Sincerely, Scott. #100689 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/17/2009 7:23:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (100676) > I read the passage as pointing out that whenever the 5 hindrances are > present in a person who is of limited understanding and who does not know > kusala from akusala, the person cannot attain enlightenment (nor, perhaps, > develop the path). Is this your reading also? > ------------------------------------------------------ > I believe that is included, though I think that it relates more to a > habitual matter (the lasting strength of the hindrances more than their > momentary flaring), > =============== To my understanding, however, there is no "lasting strength" of a defilement apart from its momentary flaring. That is to say, when a hindrance is not actually present, it has no effect. For example, at a moment of lobha, there is no dosa having effect; at a moment of kusala -- or of vipaka or kiriya -- there is no akusala of any kind having effect. ------------------------------------------------- There is propensity! Don't you guys just love talking about accumulations? ------------------------------------------------- =============== > and I also would point out that the suppressing of the > hindrances is tied in with the jhanas. =============== Yes, the attainment of jhana temporarily suppresses the hindrances from arising. But as just mentioned, the hindrances are also not present at other times too. ---------------------------------------------- That temporary suppression serves to weaken hindrances at other times as well. ---------------------------------------------- Furthermore, it is clear from the Satipatthana Sutta the 5 hindrances are not per se an obstacle to the arising of awareness: "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in mental objects? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances? "Here, O bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.'... (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html) Thus consciousness with awareness can arise interspersed with akusala consciousness. ------------------------------------------------- Yes, except when hindrances are overpowering. ----------------------------------------------- To my reading, the passage highlights the need for a certain level of panna ("discernment" in the translation quoted) in order for any attainment to be realised. It has no implications for the role of jhana in the development of awareness. Jon ======================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100690 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali hantun1 Dear Chew (Nina and Sarah), The Burmese books that I obtained from Yangon are not very useful. When I read paragraph 10 of Sacca Yamaka, I get the following. Pali Text: 10. (Ka) dukkha.m dukkhasaccanti? Aamantaa. (Kha) dukkhasacca/m dukkhanti? Kaayika.m dukkha.m cetasika.m dukkha.m .thapetvaa avasesa.m dukkhasacca.m, na dukkha.m. Kaayika.m dukkha.m cetasika.m dukkha.m dukkha~nceva dukkhasacca~nca. English Translation: 10. (a) It is suffering. Is it called suffering-truth? Yes. (b) It is suffering-truth. Is it called suffering? Leaving out physical pain and mental pain, the remaining is suffering-truth, but not suffering. Bodily pain and mental pain are both suffering and suffering-truth. Now, the first part of Burmese translation is the same as the above English translation. Additional Burmese explanation that follows has so many Pali words, it is as difficult as the original Pali text. For example, the following is the additional explanation in Burmese for para 10. (1) Dukkha.m as Sanni.t.thaana means kaayika dukkha vedanaa in dukkha-sahagata.m kaaya-vi~n~naa.na, and cetasika dukkha vedanaa in dosa-muu-dve. (2) Dukkhasacca.m as Sa.msaya means the same as above. (3) Pa.tiloma Pucchaa as Sanni.t.thaana means lokiya citta eka-siiti ta.nhaa, and leaving out kaayika dukkha and cetasika dukkha, cetasika eka-pa~n~naasa, indriyabaddharuupa 28 ruupa. (4) Also kaayika dukkha cetasika dukkha. Sa.msaya only later. I cannot make out head or tail of the above explanation. Even the figures are in Pali. For example, eka-siiti for (81) and eka-pa~n~naasa for (51). But here, Chew made a very good job. In the English translation he asks us to listen to {081107b04-padasodhanavara-chant.mp3} {081107b05-explain-padasodhanavara.mp3} {081107b06-explain-paripunnapanha.mp3} {081108a01-padasodhanavara-dukkha.mp3} I will download these mp3 and listen. Congratulations for your excellent work, Chew. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! Respectfully, Han #100691 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:42 pm Subject: Knowing realities as naama and as ruupa. no 1. nilovg Dear friends, I heard from a recording the following: Kh S: Most important is the understanding of anattaa. Thinking of realities is not the same as a moment of awareness, for example, of hardness appearing now. This is just a characteristic of a reality. It is a moment of experiencing hardness, and no thing is there. A moment of awareness of hardness is so short. It can arise any time because of conditions. An obstacle to awareness is the desire to know more than that. From the very beginning there should be precise understanding of naama which is different from ruupa. Before we classify citta and cetasika which are different naamas, we should have clear understanding what naama is and what ruupa. Rob K: Sometimes I know that there is dosa with some degree of detachment, I know that it is not my dosa. Kh S: By thinking? Rob K: Yes. Kh S: That is not the moment of the understanding of the nature of naama, but this can be developed from the very beginning. We used to take all kinds of cetasikas, such as lobha and dosa, as mine, without understanding the characteristic which is just naama. There can be awarenessof one characteristic at a time so that there will be more understanding of naama and ruupa. Realities appear through the six doorways, no matter whether we know it or not. You do not have to name the doorway through which a reality appears. --------- Nina. #100692 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Howard (100689) > To my understanding, however, there is no "lasting strength" of a > defilement apart from its momentary flaring. That is to say, when a hindrance is > not actually present, it has no effect. For example, at a moment of lobha, > there is no dosa having effect; at a moment of kusala -- or of vipaka or > kiriya -- there is no akusala of any kind having effect. > ------------------------------------------------- > There is propensity! Don't you guys just love talking about > accumulations? > =============== ;-)) ;-)) Yes, we do talk a lot about the accumulated latent tendencies -- or propensity for akusala. But, to my understanding, these are not affected by the temporary suppression of the hindrances associated with mundane jhana. The wearing away and eventual eradication of these akusala tendencies is the function of panna of satipatthana/insight and enlightenment only. This I think is the uniqueness of the Buddha's teaching. =============== > Yes, the attainment of jhana temporarily suppresses the hindrances from > arising. But as just mentioned, the hindrances are also not present at other > times too. > ---------------------------------------------- > That temporary suppression serves to weaken hindrances at other times > as well. =============== The temporary suppression of the (manifesting) hindrances that is associated with mundane jhana may weaken the tendency for a hindrance to arise (manifest), and hence to accumulate, further in the same lifetime. But it does nothing towards the weakening or eradication of the accumulated latent tendency for that hindrance. That latent tendency will continue to be carried forward from moment to moment, life to life, regardless of any attainment of mundane jhana. =============== > Thus consciousness with awareness can arise interspersed with akusala > consciousness. > ------------------------------------------------- > Yes, except when hindrances are overpowering. =============== To my understanding, the arising of awareness at times of strong akusala depends on the strength of the developed awareness rather than the strength of the akusala that is manifesting. Jon #100693 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . kenhowardau Hi Nina and Azita, I think we reached agreement on all the basic points a long time ago. But whenever one of us expresses those points in a new form of words there can still be spirited debate. Eventually, we see what that person is trying to say and we're back to agreeing with everything again. :-) ------- N: The Buddha was so compassionate that he gave exceptions to Vinaya rules, in case of sickness, or madness, etc. I was just giving an example that also concepts are important, we cannot live without them. ------- Yes. I should have known that was what you were saying. ---------------- > > Ken : I admit, however, that my views on concepts in general might > go a > little too far. Perhaps they border on heterodoxy. ------ N:No, I don't think so. see Azita's post. We need people like you, reminding us, so that we do not forget about what is 'really real'. A balance is necessary, though. Otherwise daily life would not be natural. It is not wrong to think of concepts. ----------------- Right understanding (of nama and rupa) will take care of that balance though, won't it? I can't imagine a situation where a person had too much right understanding and not enough conventional understanding. That's why I am 'underwhelmed' by some of the Tipitaka's conventional statements. (We look to the Tipitaka for right understanding of nama and rupa, not for conventional understanding.) For example, when it says that a married woman should treat her parents-in-law like gods. I think modern-day social commentators and ethicists are a better source of guidance in that department. A person with right understanding of nama and rupa will know how to act properly in any situation. Ken H #100694 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/17/2009 5:17:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: The temporary suppression of the (manifesting) hindrances that is associated with mundane jhana may weaken the tendency for a hindrance to arise (manifest), and hence to accumulate, further in the same lifetime. ------------------------------------------ Yes. ----------------------------------------- But it does nothing towards the weakening or eradication of the accumulated latent tendency for that hindrance. ---------------------------------------- Not so. It does do that indirectly, because the weakening of hindrances manifesting gets them out of the way for the time being, and that is good, Jon, because - notice - they are called *hindrances*! ;-) When hindrances are weakened, it is easier for useful states to arise. --------------------------------------- That latent tendency will continue to be carried forward from moment to moment, life to life, regardless of any attainment of mundane jhana. ----------------------------------------------- Wisdom and disenchantment and disengagement can develop more easily when hindrances are weakened. =========================== With metta, Howard Hindrances /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains â€" going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it â€" and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #100695 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma scottduncan2 Dear Jon (and Howard), Regarding: J: "The temporary suppression of the (manifesting) hindrances that is associated with mundane jhana may weaken the tendency for a hindrance to arise (manifest), and hence to accumulate, further in the same lifetime." Scott: Can you show some textual backing for this? As I understand it, the presence of the jhaana factors inhibits the arising of the hindrances. This amounts to saying that hindrances don't arise while jhaana factors supplant them, and hence the accumulatory weight is reduced. Where does it say that mundane jhaana 'weakens' hindrances? In what sense do you mean 'weakens?' Or, what to the texts suggests about the dynamics of this 'weakening?' Howard seems to refer to quasi-permanent states which literally dim in the presence of mundane jhaana, rather than adhering to a model that allows for arising and falling away of impermanent dhammaa. 'Weaken' must refer to the process of accumulation, as you note. Sincerely, Scott. #100696 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali chewsadhu Dear Han, Maha Sadhu to you for sharing the contents in the Burmese Yamaka books. It is VERY useful. Shall I share with you on what I have learned? The first thing to know in studying of Yamaka is to know the structure. For Sacca Yamaka, it is devided into three main sections, which are Section on Terms, Section on Process, and Section on Realization. The example, para 10, which quoted by you is from Section on Terms. In the Section on Terms, words are clarified. Before we read the text, we also need to know some special terms that use in the books. Let's use para.10 as example: ++++++ Pali Text: 10. (Ka) dukkha.m dukkhasaccanti? Aamantaa. (Kha) dukkhasacca.m dukkhanti? Kaayika.m dukkha.m cetasika.m dukkha.m .thapetvaa avasesa.m dukkhasacca.m, na dukkha.m. Kaayika.m dukkha.m cetasika.m dukkha.m dukkha~nceva dukkhasacca~nca. ++++++ (Ka) and (Kha) are added later in the Buddhist Council and they are just like (a) and (b) in English. In one whole sentence of (Ka), there are [question (Pucchaa)] and [answer]. e.g. [question]: dukkha.m dukkhasaccanti? [answer]: Aamantaa. In the [question], it is again divided into two, Sanni.t.thaana (Certainty) and Sa.msaya (Uncertainty). For 'dukkha.m dukkhasaccanti?', 'dukkha.m' is Sanni.t.thaana (Certainty); 'dukkhasaccanti?' is Sa.msaya (Uncertainty). You point to one phenomena and call it 'dukkha', you are certain that it is 'dukkha'. Now you want to ask, is the one that you point to also can be called 'dukkhasacca'? You are uncertain to that phenomena can be called 'dukkhasacca' or not. Then for the (Ka) answer, it gives Aamantaa, which means, the one that you point to, which is 'dukkha', is also can be called 'dukkhasacca'. Next, you also need to know (Ka) sentence is called [Anuloma]; and (Kha) sentence is called [Pa.tiloma]. The '(3) Pa.tiloma Pucchaa as Sanni.t.thaana' is referring to '(Kha) dukkhasacca.m' Now, let's go to the additional explanation in Burmese for para 10. ++++++ (1) Dukkha.m as Sanni.t.thaana means kaayika dukkha vedanaa in dukkha-sahagata.m kaaya-vi~n~naa.na, and cetasika dukkha vedanaa in dosa-muu-dve. (2) Dukkhasacca.m as Sa.msaya means the same as above. (3) Pa.tiloma Pucchaa as Sanni.t.thaana means lokiya citta eka-siiti ta.nhaa, and leaving out kaayika dukkha and cetasika dukkha, cetasika eka-pa~n~naasa, indriyabaddharuupa 28 ruupa. (4) Also kaayika dukkha cetasika dukkha. Sa.msaya only later. ++++++ For (1), 'Dukkha.m as Sanni.t.thaana', the 'Dukkha.m' is the 'Dukkha.m' in (Ka). This 'Dukkha.m' is only referring to the bodily painful feeling which associated with rootless bodily pain consciousness. And then, also the 2 unpleasant feeling which associated with consciousness rooted in hatred. Note: the above is only pointing to that feeling, not the other associated dhamma, or other kinds of feeling. For (2), 'Dukkhasacca.m as Sa.msaya', just want to say that is that which is 'Dukkha' also can be called 'Dukkhasacca'. So the 'Dukkhasacca' here is only referring to the 'Dukkha' in Sanni.t.thaana. For (3), 'Pa.tiloma Pucchaa', is the [question] statement in (Kha) sentence. It is 'Dukkhasacca', which is the 1st Noble Truth. Here, it refers to the 81 mundane consciousness, and its associated 51 cetasika [excluding lobha cetasika], and Indriyabaddharuupa 28. For the 'Dukkhasacca' above, leaving out kaayika dukkha and cetasika dukkha, the remaining can be called 'Dukkhasacca', but not 'Dukkha'. For (4), only kaayika dukkha and cetasika dukkha, are called 'Dukkhasacca' and 'Dukkha'. Hope my explanation is helpful to you. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100697 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:36 am Subject: In the Dhamma's Presence. bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Contemplating the Qualities of the Dhamma: Perfectly formulated is this Buddha-Dhamma, visible right here and now, immediately effective, timeless, inviting each & everyone to come and see for themselves, inspect, examine and verify. Leading each and everyone through progress towards perfection. Directly observable, experiencable and realizable by each intelligence... When a bhikkhu is devoted to this recollection of the Dhamma, he thinks: I never in the past met a master, who taught a law that led onward thus, who possessed this talent, nor do I now see any such a master other than the Blessed One. Seeing the Dhamma's special qualities in this very way, he is respectful and deferential towards the Master. He entertains great reverence for the Dhamma and attains fullness of faith, and insight. He has much happiness and gladness. He conquers fear and dread. He is able to endure pain. He comes to feel as if he were living in the Dhamma's presence. When recollecting the Dhamma's special qualities, dwelling in this remembrance, his body becomes as worthy of worship as a shrine room. His mind tends towards the realization of the peerless Dhamma. When he encounters an opportunity for transgression, then he has vivid awareness of conscience and shame induced by recollecting the well-regulatedness of the Dhamma. And if he penetrates no higher, he is at least headed for a happy destiny... Now when a man is truly wise, His constant task will surely be This recollection of the Dhamma Blessed with such mighty potency. Vism I 218 <...> Have a nice Dhamma day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #100698 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali hantun1 Dear Chew, I am very, very grateful to you for your kind explanation. Since I am starting from the scratch please allow me to go step by step. Chew: Maha Sadhu to you for sharing the contents in the Burmese Yamaka books. It is VERY useful. Shall I share with you on what I have learned? The first thing to know in studying of Yamaka is to know the structure. For Sacca Yamaka, it is divided into three main sections, which are Section on Terms, Section on Process, and Section on Realization. The example, para 10, which quoted by you is from Section on Terms. In the Section on Terms, words are clarified. Before we read the text, we also need to know some special terms that use in the books. -------------------- Han: I am trying to see the three sections. Please help me. By comparing with the contents of the Burmese translation, I think the three sections are as follows. (1) Section on Terms Pa.n.nattivaara uddesa Pa.n.nattivaara niddesa (2) Section of Process Pavatti uppaadavaara Pavatti nirodhavaara Pavatti uppaada-nirodhavaara (3) Section on Realization Pari~n~naavaara Am I correct? ==================== Chew: Let's use para.10 as example: ++++++ Pali Text: 10. (Ka) dukkha.m dukkhasaccanti? Aamantaa. (Kha) dukkhasacca. m dukkhanti? Kaayika.m dukkha.m cetasika.m dukkha.m .thapetvaa avasesa.m dukkhasacca. m, na dukkha.m. Kaayika.m dukkha.m cetasika.m dukkha.m dukkha~nceva dukkhasacca~ nca. ++++++ (Ka) and (Kha) are added later in the Buddhist Council and they are just like (a) and (b) in English. In one whole sentence of (Ka), there are [question (Pucchaa)] and [answer]. e.g. [question]: dukkha.m dukkhasaccanti? [answer]: Aamantaa. -------------------- Han: From your other Notes, I note that Question is (pucchaa) and answer is (vissajjana). ==================== Chew: In the [question], it is again divided into two, Sanni.t.thaana (Certainty) and Sa.msaya (Uncertainty) . For 'dukkha.m dukkhasaccanti? ', 'dukkha.m' is Sanni.t.thaana (Certainty); 'dukkhasaccanti? ' is Sa.msaya (Uncertainty) . You point to one phenomena and call it 'dukkha', you are certain that it is 'dukkha'. Now you want to ask, is the one that you point to also can be called 'dukkhasacca' ? You are uncertain to that phenomena can be called 'dukkhasacca' or not. Then for the (Ka) answer, it gives Aamantaa, which means, the one that you point to, which is 'dukkha', is also can be called 'dukkhasacca' . -------------------- Han: I got it. ==================== Chew: Next, you also need to know (Ka) sentence is called [Anuloma]; and (Kha) sentence is called [Pa.tiloma]. -------------------- Han: I got it. ==================== Chew: The '(3) Pa.tiloma Pucchaa as Sanni.t.thaana' is referring to '(Kha) dukkhasacca. m' Now, let's go to the additional explanation in Burmese for para 10. ++++++ (1) Dukkha.m as Sanni.t.thaana means kaayika dukkha vedanaa in dukkha-sahagata. m kaaya-vi~n~naa. na, and cetasika dukkha vedanaa in dosa-muu-dve. (2) Dukkhasacca. m as Sa.msaya means the same as above. (3) Pa.tiloma Pucchaa as Sanni.t.thaana means lokiya citta eka-siiti ta.nhaa, and leaving out kaayika dukkha and cetasika dukkha, cetasika eka-pa~n~naasa, indriyabaddharuupa 28 ruupa. (4) Also kaayika dukkha cetasika dukkha. Sa.msaya only later. ++++++ For (1), 'Dukkha.m as Sanni.t.thaana' , the 'Dukkha.m' is the 'Dukkha.m' in (Ka). This 'Dukkha.m' is only referring to the bodily painful feeling which associated with rootless bodily pain consciousness. And then, also the 2 unpleasant feeling which associated with consciousness rooted in hatred. Note: the above is only pointing to that feeling, not the other associated dhamma, or other kinds of feeling. -------------------- Han: I got it. ==================== Chew: For (2), 'Dukkhasacca.m as Sa.msaya', just want to say that is that which is 'Dukkha' also can be called 'Dukkhasacca'. So the 'Dukkhasacca' here is only referring to the 'Dukkha' in Sanni.t.thaana. -------------------- Han: I got it. ==================== Chew: For (3), 'Pa.tiloma Pucchaa', is the [question] statement in (Kha) sentence. It is 'Dukkhasacca', which is the 1st Noble Truth. Here, it refers to the 81 mundane consciousness, and its associated 51 cetasika [excluding lobha cetasika], and Indriyabaddharuupa 28. For the 'Dukkhasacca' above, leaving out kaayika dukkha and cetasika dukkha, the remaining can be called 'Dukkhasacca' , but not 'Dukkha'. -------------------- Han: I almost got it. Why is ta.nhaa [lobha cetasika] excluded? Is it because ta.nhaa is included in Samudayasacca which will come later in the book? ==================== Chew: For (4), only kaayika dukkha and cetasika dukkha, are called 'Dukkhasacca' and 'Dukkha'. -------------------- Han: I study your above explanation with the following English translation. Leaving out physical pain and mental pain, the remaining is suffering-truth, but not suffering. Bodily pain and mental pain are both suffering and suffering-truth. I understand it now. ==================== Chew: Hope my explanation is helpful to you. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --------------------- Han: Yes, your explanation is very useful. I am very grateful. Slowly, slowly, I begin to understand it better and better. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #100699 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Hi pt & all, #100547 --- On Tue, 8/9/09, ptaus1 wrote: >It seems one of the main reasons (if not the main one) that some doubt authenticity of abhidhamma (and commentaries) is lack of evidence it was recited at the first council. .... S: Correct me if I'm wrong, but seems that what people would really like would be a quote in the suttas, preferably a sutta given by the Buddha, which says that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was recited at the first council. They will never find this because: a) the council only occurred after the Buddha's death, so therefore, we can only read commentarial accounts about it and b) no one has ever suggested there were 'Pitakas' in the Buddha's time or at the first council. There was Dhamma-Vinaya. The commentaries explain how this equates with the Ti-pitaka. All the various accounts of the First Council (in Theravada sources) are in accordance on this. .... >The main quote in that regard is from Vinaya account of the first council - I quote here from Rhys Davids' translation of Vinaya Cullavagga XI, which is available here: http://www.sacred- texts.com/ bud/sbe20/ sbe20119. htm "Thus did the venerable Mahâ Kassapa question the venerable Ânanda as to the occasion of the Sâmañña-phala, and as to the individual concerned. And in like manner did he question him through the five Nikâyas, and as he was successively asked, so did Ânanda make reply." So, it only mentions 5 nikayas, not abhidhamma pitaka. ..... S: Yes, earlier the reference was to Dhamma Vinaya. Kassapa questioned Ven Upali on the Vinaya and then Ananda on 'Dhamma'. .... >Now, I know that: 1. in Atthasalini, abhidhamma pitaka is classified as khuddaka nikaya, but that doesn't help because commentary is considered later by some, so ideally they would want to see a reference in the vinaya itself. .... S: As you say, the commentaries make it clear that the Abhidhamma Pitaka is classified as Khuddaka Nikaya: To quote from my older messages: A) Atthasalini (commentary to the Dhammasangani), Introductory discourse (PTS transl): [referring to the reciting of the Abhidhamma at the First Council]: "Thus at the time of the Rehearsal at the First Council, held by the five hundred, the company of the self-controlled who recited under the presidency of Mahaakassapa did so after previous determination: '[This is the Doctrine, this is the Vinaya], these are the first words, these the middle words, these the later words of the Buddha; this is the Vinaya-Pitaka, this the Suttanta-Pitaka, this the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, this the Diigha Nikaaya.....Khuddaka Nikaaya; these the nine parts, to wit, the Suttas, etc.; these the eightly-four thousand units of text.' And not only this: the various literary expedients appearing in the three Pi.takas such as the lists of contents (uddaana), chapters (vagga), elisions (peyyaala), sections (nipaata) of single, double subjects, etc., groups (sa.myutta), fifties (pa~n~naasa) - all this having been arranged, was rehearsed in seven months." ********* B) G.P. Malalasekera, 'The Pali Literature of Ceylon': "When later the text of the canon came to be compiled, arranged, and edited, some of the expositions found their way into the Pitakas and were given a permanent place therein. Thus we have the Sangiti-suttanta of the Digha Nikaya, ascribed to Sariputta and forming a complete catechism of terms and passages of exegetical nature. Such was also the Sacca-vibhanga (an exposition of the four Noble Truths) of the Majjhima, which later found its proper place in the second book of the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, and also the Madhu-pindika-sutta of Maha-Kaccayana, included in the Majjhima Nikaya. "It sometimes happened that for a proper understanding of the text, explanations of a commentarial nature were quite essential; and in such cases the commentary was naturally incorporated into the text and formed part of the text itself.......Then there is the Niddesa, a whole book of commentary on texts now included in the Sutta-nipata; and there are passages clearly of a commentarial nature scattered throughout the Nikayas." .... >2. There are multiple accounts in atthsalini that place abhidhamma recitation at the time of the first council. >3. There is also an account of the first council in vinaya atthakatha that Sarah mentions in post 9464, but again the problem is that it's a commentary account. ..... S: As I said, I think it's only a problem for those who would like the Buddha's own words about the first council after his death:-). Any comments by any of his disciples are by nature, commentarial. .... >4. There are the tibetan and chinese source - this is from Robert's forum, where he's quoting Sarah quoting the introduction from the above vinaya atthakatha (sorry can't find the post number on dsg, as I assume Robert copied it from here somewhere), though these also appear to be later sources. .... S: See "Vinaya- commentary, Baahiranidaana" in 'Useful Posts'. ..... >So, does anyone know of any other accounts that would testify that abdhidhamma (and even atthakathas) were recited at the first council, because this is what people are looking for in order to believe in authenticity of abhidhamma and the commentaries? .... S: I believe the commentaries by Buddhaghosa were based on the very earliest commentaries in Sri Lanka and their old historical record, the Mahavamsa recounts the same. As I said, modern scholars who come to different conclusions still have to base their findings on these texts, the ancient commentaries, in the end. The other early Councils and the Mahavihara arahats had no reason to doubt them, but I think it all comes down to our confidence in what is taught in the Abhidhamma. Is there anything other than nama and rupa now? Is there any atta to control anything at all? Is there any pt or Sarah or anyone or any 'thing' else, or just elements, dhammas, empty of atta? Metta Sarah ======= #100700 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? sarahprocter... Hi pt, --- On Sun, 13/9/09, ptaus1 wrote: >...I understand that kamma results are a tough topic, so I'm only hoping to discuss the main principles of how kamma works, especially because the interesting point of the sutta seems to go against (or at least, goes in addition to) the familiar kamma maxim that beings are heirs to their own kamma. .... S: I think it is a very complex issue. For example, in the killing of a living being, it is only completed kamma patha if the living being dies. Now this is irrespective of the strength of the intention to kill. Someone may have a very strong intention to kill a mosquito, but it's only partial kamma-patha if the mosquito escapes. Someone else may have a lesser intention, but the mosquito dies. Only a Buddha can know all the intricacies of the results in both cases. One thing for sure is that kamma accumulates and it is the intention that is the kamma. ..... >Besides, it also looks like my job will soon take me into entertainment industry for a while, so this topic seems relevant. >Perhaps it would help the discussion if we limit it to a simple example of telling a one-line joke (granted, there are still many cittas involved even in such short-lived situation, but at least it is much simpler): >First, there's my intention to tell a joke (temporarily cause delusion in others) Second, that intention leads to the action of telling a joke. Third, my audience believes me (becomes intoxicated and heedless for a moment). >Now, as Jon suggests, I'd think that my kamma would have more weight because the joke was successful and set the audience into temporary delusion, but the main issue is â€" why is that? >There are two possibilities that I'm considering: 1. In response to audience liking my joke, I get more moments with conceit and lobha (like enjoying that the audience likes me, being proud, etc) and that's what makes my kamma more heavy. 2. The simple fact that the audience became delusional as a result of my action is what makes my kamma more heavy (so it's kind of like a law of how kamma works). >Now, I have no problem with point 1, but point 2 seems to go against the maxim that beings are heirs to their own kamma. I mean, if the weight of my kamma really depends on other people's response to my actions, then I'm kind of a heir to both my delusional intentions, as well as theirs? .... S: Yes, it's very complex. Back to a killing example, someone may try to deliberately kill another human, but the other person fortunately survives and the 'conventional penalty' is therefore much less. So it seems with the kamma. We read about the acts that lead to rebirth in the lowest hell realm, such as the killing of a parent. I don't think it includes 'the attempted killing' of the parent - I think there's a difference in the results. With regard to the jokes and the entertainment industry, I think that 'like now', there are so many different cittas involved. I regularly go to a yoga class in which the teacher always tells a few light jokes or one-liners to keep the atmosphere relaxed and to encourage us. I appreciate his concern for the students. When I used to teach, I'd also try to motivate and encourage the students with some humour too, which I know they found helpful. There's bound to be lobha in whatever we do - thinking about the situation is not the same as understanding the reality now. As I think I mentioned, when we were in Italy, we played a very clever game, 'Mafia' with my grown-up nieces and nephews. We were all acting out roles, but everyone knew it was only a game. Joining in gave everyone pleasure. Different intentions at different moments. Best wishes for the new direction of your job. I'd like to hear more about it sometime. Metta Sarah ======== #100701 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? sarahprocter... Hi pt, (Han & all) A little more: --- On Sun, 13/9/09, ptaus1 wrote: >...I understand that kamma results are a tough topic, so I'm only hoping to discuss the main principles of how kamma works, especially because the interesting point of the sutta seems to go against (or at least, goes in addition to) the familiar kamma maxim that beings are heirs to their own kamma. ..... S: "Beings are heirs to their own kamma", but many factors affect the ripening of the fruit of such kamma. I gave the example of the killing of a parent, which as we know results in rebirths in the Avici hell. From Sammohavinodanii (Dispeller, 32149): "Herein, (1) 'as to act' [means] firstly that the act (kamma) of one here in the human existence who deprives of life while in the human existence his mother or his father - even if they have changed sex - is of immediate effect. Although, thinking to avoid its result, he fills the whole world with gilt monuments (thuupa) as big as the Great Shrine and offers full alms-giving to the seated Order of Bhikkhus throughout a whole world sphere (cakkavaa.a), and walks without letting go the hem of the Enlightened One's robe, still, on the break-up of the body, he appears in hell." Now, an interesting part relating to the intention: " (i) For a muna who, although with the intention: 'I shall kill a ram,' yet kills a human mother or father standing in the ram's place, reaps immediate effect. But one who, (ii) with the intention of killing a ram or (iii) with the intention of killing his mother or father, kills a ram, does not reap immediate effect. (iv) One who, with the intention of killing his mother or father, kills his mother or father, reaps immediate effect." S: And the causing of a schism in the Order, which also brings the same result, there are many factors involved, other than the intention. For example, from the same text: #2147 "And here, the 'act' itself or the 'recital' is the measure; 'speaking', 'persuasion' and 'vote-taking', however, are the prior stage. For no schism is caused in the Order by one speaking by way of exemplifying the eighteen bases, and when a vote is taken, after persuading, for the purpose of knowing opinion thereon. But when four or more, after taking the vote thus, carry out a separate or [Patimokkha] recital, then a schism is caused in the Order. That one possessed of [Right] View should cause a schism in the Order thus - that is not possible." [S: As a side-note, K.Sujin often refers to how very dangerous it is for someone to become a bhikkhu without a good understanding of the Teachings -the results of persuasion of 'anti-dhamma' are different ] A little later: "In the case of a schism in the Order, for one who, by gathering a following separately, without the Order resident inside the boundary having met together, carries out an act or recites a [Patimokkha] recital after he has done the speaking, persuasion and vote-taking, there is a schism created, and kamma of immediate effect. But it is permissible out of a belief that the Order is in agreement, since for one who does it believing that the Order is in agreement, there is neither schism nor kamma of immediate effect. Likewise when the following is less than nine in number. But for one who creates a schism in the Order by means of giving the final decision among nine people, the kamma has an immediate effect. The kamma of the followers who assert what is not the Law is greatly reprehensible. Those who assert the Law are blameless." S: In other words, even if the intention is the same, 'the nine people' is of significance and so are many other factors. A lot more details is given. We can also read about the different kinds of kamma in Abhidhammattha Sangaha and other texts. Perhaps Han and others will add further comments. Metta Sarah ======= "In the case #100702 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali nilovg Dear Han and Chew, thank you very much for your study and analysis. Op 18-sep-2009, om 8:11 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: > I almost got it. > Why is ta.nhaa [lobha cetasika] excluded? > Is it because ta.nhaa is included in Samudayasacca which will come > later in the book? ------- N: Yes, I think so too. Because here it is explained about dukkha, not yet about the truth of the origin of dukkha which is tanhaa. -------- Nina. #100703 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Howard and Jon, Op 18-sep-2009, om 2:13 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Wisdom and disenchantment and disengagement can develop more easily > when hindrances are weakened. ------- N: This is problematic. When insight is not being developed we take wisdom, disenchantment and suppression of the hindrances for self. The development of the truth of anattaa is foremost, most important. Otherwise we keep on deluding ourselves, believing how good and clever we are suppressing the hindrances. Also the hindrances are only dhammas, arising because of conditions. We may begin to understand this and then pa~n~naa can grow. To understand realities as mere dhammas is already a beginning of detachment. Nina. #100704 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma: weakening the hindrances. nilovg Dear Scott and Howard, I just read a text to Lodewijk this morning. Op 18-sep-2009, om 4:46 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > Where does it say that mundane jhaana 'weakens' hindrances? In what > sense do you mean 'weakens?' Or, what to the texts suggests about > the dynamics of this 'weakening?' > > Howard seems to refer to quasi-permanent states which literally dim > in the presence of mundane jhaana, rather than adhering to a model > that allows for arising and falling away of impermanent dhammaa. > 'Weaken' must refer to the process of accumulation, as you note. ------- N: text: We read in the Kindred Sayings (III, Khandhå-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Elements, Middle Fifty, Chapter 5, § 102, Impermanence) that the Buddha said to the monks at Såvatthí: The perceiving of impermanence, monks, if practised and enlarged, wears out all sensual lust, all lust of rebirth, all ignorance, it wears out, tears out all conceit of "I am". Just as, monks, in the autumn season a ploughman with a great ploughshare, cuts through the spreading roots as he ploughs; even so, monks, the perceiving of impermanence, if practised and enlarged, wears out all sensual lust, wears out all lust for body, all lust for rebirth, wears out all ignorance, wears out, tears out all conceit of "I am". The Buddha uses several similes in order to explain that the perception of impermanence wears out all clinging, ignorance and conceit. Further on we read: Just as, monks, in the autumn season, when the sky is opened up and cleared of clouds, the sun, leaping up into the firmament, drives away all darkness from the heavens, and shines and burns and flashes forth; even so, monks, the perceiving of impermanence, if practised and enlarged, wears out all sensual lust, wears out all lust for body, all desire for rebirth, all ignorance, wears out, tears out all conceit of "I am". And in what way, monks, does it so wear them out? It is by seeing: "Such is body; such is the arising of body; such is the ceasing of body. Such is feeling, remembrance, the activities (saòkhåra-kkhandha), such is consciousness, its arising and its ceasing." Even thus practised and enlarged, monks, does the perceiving of impermanence wear out all sensual lust, all lust for body, all desire for rebirth, all ignorance, wears out, tears out all conceit of "I am". -------- N: Through insight the impermanence of realities is penetrated. I like the comparison with the ploughshare which cuts off the roots. Only pa~n~naa developed in vipassanaa can do this. NIna. #100705 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:17 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 6, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Question: Do you apply yourself to meditation? Answer: We have to be very careful about what we mean by meditation. I avoid using the word meditation because different people have different ideas about it. Our goal should be the development of right understanding of the realities which appear now. We can begin to notice and consider one reality at a time and then there is no need to name it or to think about it. Understanding can be developed in any situation, one does not have to change one's life or do anything special. Right understanding can develop naturally, at this very moment, one does not have to sit in a quiet place. Thus, this is different from what people generally mean by meditation. The development of right understanding or insight, vipassanå, is a kind of mental development which can be done no matter where you are. Question: Don't you need a quiet place in order to concentrate? Answer: Not at all, because the purpose of the Buddha's teachings is to understand the realities which arise naturally, in daily life. We have to develop understanding of realities such as seeing, visible object, hearing or sound. Sound is a reality, no matter where you are, whether it is quiet or whether there is a lot of noise. If we are in a noisy place and we have aversion towards that noise, aversion can be realized as just a conditioned reality, not "my aversion". If we know that understanding can be developed in whatever situation we are, there are conditions for its development. Question: You were talking about sound. It is so unusual to have sound as a meditation subject. How can you develop understanding of it without retiring to a quiet place and considering it? How do you begin? Answer: Do you have to try now in order to see, to hear or to touch? These are realities which naturally arise in your life. When there are conditions for their arising, you cannot help but see, hear or touch. When there is intellectual understanding of realities there are conditions for direct awareness and direct understanding of them as they appear one at a time. However, we cannot fix the time for the arising of right understanding; it may arise now or later on. There is nobody who can force the arising of right understanding, it is conditioned by many factors. ****** Nina. #100706 From: "colette" Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:13 pm Subject: "I left my brain on the train" Scott, oops, no THE WHO, said that,. ksheri3 Scott, yes, Rupa has to have, has to possess, "characteristics". Nama, HOWEVER, can easily be misconstrued and MISS DIRECTED, <...> It is common practice for people to give NAMA characteristics and to manifest NAMA as if it were Rupa. This is FALSE WITNESS.<....> Just where did I leave my brain? Pete Townsend, you were the designated driver when were doing LSD, did I really leave my brain on the train? How could I have seperated my body from my brain, isn't just as easy to gain a contracted "salary" that all robots adhere to with or without a brain, AS LONG AS THE BEHAVIOR IS ACCEPTABLE AND IDENTICLE? <...>ARe the two characteristics different? If So, THEN HOW? <...> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear colette, > > Thanks for the ongoing discussion. I guess svabhava and sabhaava are somewhat the same, eh? I'd say ruupa has characteristics and I guess you think so too. Where should the discussion go from here? <...> #100707 From: "colette" Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:51 pm Subject: Re: "Nothing really matters, anyone can see" Queen ksheri3 Hi Scott, During this second hour I have I had the chance to actually compare the two words: "Svabhava" and "Sabhaava". BASING MY OPINION OF THE IGNORANCE TO BUDDHIST DOCTRINE, WHICH I POSSESS, I CANNOT SAY THAT THE THEOSOPHICAL TEMINOLOGY OF "SVABHAVA" IS IN ANY WAY EQUIVELANT TO THE BUDDHIST WORD, TERMINOLOGY, "SABHAAVA". From what little I have viewed the Buddhist term "sabhaava" is used in reference to Dharmas. Sure, I can easily see a potential meeting of my usage of the term Svabhava and the Buddhist term "Sabhaava", however, I do not have that consciousness as of yet, nor do I have it at this second. Sorry, my previous post is, THEN, non-applicable or non-valid to the Theravadan concept and the Theravadan prison of mind. Rupa and Nama both have characteristics. Nama is nothing more than an affirmation of the Rupa and the Rupa is nothing more than an affirmation of the Nama. ONE, either Rupa or Nama, cannot exist without the other, this is DEPENDENT ORIGINATION. The interplay of "the nama" with "the rupa" or "the rupa" with "the nama" is what we SUFFER. We are continually suffering this conflict that occurs between the rupa and nama or nama and rupa. I couldn't figure out this "concept" for decades starting at 4-10-78 onward to today. It bothered the hell out of me when, while seeing a psychiatrist after my automobile accident, the psychiatrist said to me: "why do you do this?" my reply was "do what?" I had no idea what he was talking about since we were only performing a simple question and answer PARLEY. He then went on to declare that "I" "play games with words" refering to our conversation, where I replied to him: "but that's what people do to me" implying that I was only doing what the society does and what the society adheres to as NORMAL CONVERSATION. THIS HOWEVER IS A SIGNIFICANT EVENT AND IS COMPLETELY DEFINITORY OF THE PAST THAT I HAVE BEEN TORTURED THROUGH. I NEVER PLAYED GAMES WITH THIS DOCTOR OF THOUGHT OR PSYCHIATRIST, THIS DOCTOR OIF THOUGHT OR PSYCHIATRIST WAS AND IS DEPENDENT UPON THE RATIONALE THAT WORD GAMES ARE THE SOCIAL NORM AND HE, THE PSYCHIATRIST, WAS PLACING ME IN A WORD GAME. A second example was/is from the USNavy, HS-12, NAS CORNONADO, CO Capt. O.C.Cannon, in 1980-81. Oh, I had them by the balls when we went out on det. for our O.R.E. before going south to South America where we could begin the preliminaries fot the invasion of Grenada Island. AFter I did my tour and got back to Norfolk VA port where the CV-66, America, was home ported at, I had to wait to fly back to San Diego California, until the flight that the Capt. himself was taking, which means that I was being kept under lock & key. I had photographed the standard operating procedure of drug trafficking which exists within the middle-class and is the social norm for advancement in the "chain-of-command" or is that HEIRARCHICAL STRUCTURE WHICH ALL ROBOTS ARE PROGRAMMED TO OBEY? We got back to Coronado at about 4 a.m. and we had muster at 6 a.m. where the squadron would be given "LEAVE" since we were gonna go out on DET, detachment, "cruisin'" for 6 months at least. WEll, at muster the squadron was relieved but they made it a point to say, from their lofty metal staircase that was outside the doors to each and every squadron at the hangers on NAS North Island, they said "You are relieved EXCEPT YOU SHERIDAN, REPORT TO THE DUTY OFFICE". AMS 3 KEEL, a Chicago resident, was the "duty driver" and he had to take me to 32nd St. Naval BAse where I spoke to some flunky LUEITENANT that said to me that "I had delusions of granduer" which clearly means that: In the chain-of-command there is a DEPENDENCE UPON THE HEIRARCHY and this drug induced state of consciousness manifests itself through delusions of granduer. Shall we test this theory? Who shall we test it on? <..> SO YOU SEE, this thing called "self-existance" or what I use from the Theosophical society termed as Svabhava, is complete LETHAL to the conservative right wing ideology, it also negates any and all ORGANIZED RELIGIONS THAT ARE DEPENDENT UPON A CREATOR DEITY FOR THEIR EXISTANCE. A creator deity simply cannot exist if any sane person has any exposure to the doctrines of this hallucination called SCIENCE. <...> toodles, colette -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear colette, > > Thanks for the ongoing discussion. I guess svabhava and sabhaava are somewhat the same, eh? I'd say ruupa has characteristics and I guess you think so too. Where should the discussion go from here? #100708 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Khun Sujin, from another board. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Sun, 13/9/09, truth_aerator wrote: > My addition: When the Buddha has talked about 12 ayatana or 18 dhatus, etc etc, he was NOT interested or intending to merely describe "what is". What he wanted to show is that the experience happens due to causes and conditions and that is beyond mastery, impermanent, subject to become otherwise, not-Self and not to be clung to. His purpose was more practical than giving another theory on the ultimate constituents of the "world out there" which were dime a dozen in Ancient India. .... S: My understanding, on the contrary, is that when the Buddha talked about the ayatanas, dhatus etc, he was very interested in describing 'what is', the realities 'now' which have to be known. Yes, it's not another 'theory', but it's only by describing and undersatanding 'what is' now, that the causes and conditions, the anatta aspect of dhammas can be known. So we agree that the teachings are very, very practical. Seeing is dhamma/abhidhamma now. Visible object is dhamma now. Phassa is dhamma now. Vedana is dhamma now. Metta Sarah ==== #100709 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right understanding of dana. /was . . . sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, #100538 Jon and others replied, but as it's in front of me, I might as well add my 2 cents worth too: --- On Tue, 8/9/09, kenhowardau wrote: >S: Satipatthana doesn't mean no thinking about concepts as we all always stress! Still a conventional world, even though we know it's only that... ------------ ------ K:>Does satipatthana involve being able to identify instances of dana and the other kamma-pathas? Or does it only involve right understanding of alobha and dosa etc? .... S: The latter for 'ordinary' satipatthana. We're not talking about the Buddha or key disciples. .... >To identify any particular kamma-patha would be to directly know various things that occurred over various moments. (Was the gift a suitable one? was it willingly offered? was it accepted? . . .) (Was the sentient being who was killed actually present? was there an intention to kill that particular being? did he die as a result? . . ) .... S: Yes, without anything close to omniscient wisdom, this is all thinking for us. .... >This reminds me of the monk in the Satipatthana Sutta who was "walking." What he actually knew with right understanding was a dhamma-arammana that appeared at the time. He didn't necessarily know that he was walking as distinct from running or hopping etc., did he? .... S: I think that's exactly the point that's made in the S. Sutta and commentary. All that appears through the body-sense are the various tangible elements. The rest is thinking, even though it's usually the conventional truth. Like now, you know you're in Australia, but it's just thinking about a concept, even if the rest of the world agrees with you:-). .... Ken H PS: I'm going to change that subject heading. Whether it's true or not! :-) .... S: :-) That was kind! .... >PPS: Sorry about all the untidy broken lines in my recent posts. They don't appear that way in the Edit and Preview pages. .... S: I hadn't noticed, even on print-outs.... Metta Sarah ======== #100710 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali chewsadhu Dear Han, Nina, and All, I am very happy that you have the interest in the studying of Yamaka. Maha Sadhu to all of you. Yamaka is a very interesting subject. Please go slowly and rejoice in the studying. ======== > Han: By comparing with the contents of the Burmese translation, I think the three sections are as follows. > > (1) Section on Terms > Pa.n.nattivaara uddesa > Pa.n.nattivaara niddesa > > (2) Section of Process > Pavatti uppaadavaara > Pavatti nirodhavaara > Pavatti uppaada-nirodhavaara > > (3) Section on Realization > Pari~n~naavaara > > Am I correct? > > ==================== Chew: Yes. The three main sections of Sacca Yamaka are 1. Pa.n.nattivaara, 2. Pavattivaara, and 3. Pari~n~naavaara. For 1. Pa.n.nattivaara again is in two sub-sections, which are 1. uddesa, and 2. niddesa. The Pa.n.nattivaara uddesa is just like the outline of the Section on Terms. And the Pa.n.nattivaara niddesa is the explanation in detail. Next, the Pavattivaara, Section on Process, which is the most interesting part. There are many dhamma we have to find out. This is also the place where we need the Burmese book 'Ayakauk' to provide us the information. This Pavattivaara has three sub-sections as you mentioned above. The last main section is Pari~n~naavaara. It tells you who is realizing the 'Dukkhasacca', and who is eradicating the 'Samudayasacca'. The 'Nirodhasacca'is not mentioned in Section on Process and Section on Realization. The 'Maggasacca' is not mentioned in Section on Realization. > -------------------- > > Han: > I almost got it. > Why is ta.nhaa [lobha cetasika] excluded? > Is it because ta.nhaa is included in Samudayasacca which will come later in the book? > > ==================== Chew: Yes, lobha cetasika is Samudayasacca. In the Sacca Yamaka, it relates the ultimate realities with the 4 Noble Truth. May you be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100711 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali hantun1 Dear Chew (and Nina), Thank you very much for your clarifications. Chew: Next, the Pavattivaara, Section on Process, which is the most interesting part. There are many dhamma we have to find out. This is also the place where we need the Burmese book 'Ayakauk' to provide us the information. Han: As I have said, I have the following volumes. (1) Yamaka Pali in three volumes. (2) "Nissaya" method of Burmese translation in two volumes. (3) Commentary in Burmese, titled "Ayakauk". What I find is the "Nissaya" method of Burmese translation and the "Ayakauk" are almost the same. The difference is the Pali paragraph numbers are mentioned in the "Nissaya" method of Burmese translation and not in the "Ayakauk". So I find it easier to refer to the "Nissaya" method of Burmese translation. Anyway, I will see how it goes as I proceed with my study on Yamaka. It will be a slow process, but I can look up any paragraph that you want me to look up for you. Respectfully, Han Nina, Thank you very much for your kind comment [Yes, I think so too. Because here it is explained about dukkha, not yet about the truth of the origin of dukkha which is tanhaa.] #100712 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Jon) - In a message dated 9/17/2009 10:47:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Howard seems to refer to quasi-permanent states which literally dim in the presence of mundane jhaana, rather than adhering to a model that allows for arising and falling away of impermanent dhammaa. 'Weaken' must refer to the process of accumulation, as you note. ============================= Not my intention. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100713 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma: weakening the hindrances. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/18/2009 4:08:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Through insight the impermanence of realities is penetrated. I like the comparison with the ploughshare which cuts off the roots. Only pa~n~naa developed in vipassanaa can do this. ================================= Please look back at my "spiral" posts. Path factors are mutually supportive. Wisdom doesn't develop without conditions, and not with study as sole condition. With metta, Howard Path to Full Awakening /Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward./ (From the Kimattha Sutta) #100714 From: "sprlrt" Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sprlrt Hi Sarah, pt and all, I would also like to add that the Dhamma/Tipitaka can be the object of the 11th akusala kàmàvacara citta (Dhs. 422), moha mùla (rooted in ignorance), upekkha sahagatam (accompanied by neutral feeling), vicikiccha sampayutta (associated with doubt); one of the many conceptual objects of that citta listed at Dhs. 1123 (as a fetter, to vipassana); and 1167 (as an hindrance, to samatha): "What is doubt here?... doubt, perplexity about the Dhamma..." Alberto #100715 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Knowing realities as naama and as ruupa. no 2. nilovg Dear friends: Rob K: When sati is aware pf dosa, is it aware of dosa as naama or is it aware of dosa as dosa? Kh S: In what sense is there awareness of dosa as dosa? Dosa is naama. Everyone knows when dosa arises, that it is dosa. But what is its characterisitic? What is the true nature of dosa? It is not self, it is a reality which is naama, different from other naamas. We should become familiar with the characteristic of naama so that we will know that it is not my dosa at all. Learning to see the difference between naama and ruupa is most important. But only one reality at a time can be known. Seeing sees visible object. When sati arises one can begin to know that it is not 'I' who sees. Seeing is different from visible object. Only very little at a time can be understood. Visible object may appear, but we should not try to make ourselves experience 'visible object with nobody in it'. When we learn more about naama and ruupa there will be conditions for awareness of them. ****** Nina. #100716 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali sarahprocter... Dear Han, Chew & all, --- On Thu, 17/9/09, han tun wrote: > ...When I read paragraph 10 of Sacca Yamaka, I get the following. >Pali Text: 10. (Ka) dukkha.m dukkhasaccanti? Aamantaa. (Kha) dukkhasacca/ m dukkhanti? Kaayika.m dukkha.m cetasika.m dukkha.m .thapetvaa avasesa.m dukkhasacca. m, na dukkha.m. Kaayika.m dukkha.m cetasika.m dukkha.m dukkha~nceva dukkhasacca~ nca. >English Translation: 10. (a) It is suffering. Is it called suffering-truth? Yes. (b) It is suffering-truth. Is it called suffering? Leaving out physical pain and mental pain, the remaining is suffering-truth, but not suffering. Bodily pain and mental pain are both suffering and suffering-truth. ***** S: Both of you have given great explanations for the first section. For others (and by way of revision), it may be useful to give the summary of the sections which Nyantiloka gives in his "Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka".. [Our copy is an old BPS publication which Nina has also referred to before. It's very useful, but I have no idea if it's still available.] So let me start: "V Sacca-Yamaka (pairs of questions on the 4 noble Truths) A. Delimitation of Terms ========================= a) "Does (everything which is called) dukkha (here, painful feeling), refer to the Dukkha-Truth (Truth of Suffering)? - Yes. b) "But does Dukkha-truth always refer to dukkha (painful feeling) - (No; e..g.,) excepting bodily and mental dukkha (-feeling), the remaining Dukkha-truth is Dukkha-truth, but it is not dukkha (painful feeling)." "Bodily and mental dukkha (painful feeling), however, is both, dukkha (painful feeling), as well as Dukkha-truth." Dukkha-Truth, commonly called the Truth of Suffering, does not merely refer to actual painful feeling (called likewise dukkha), but teaches that, on account of the law of impermanency and change, all the phenomena of existence, even the states of highest bliss and happiness, are unsatisfactory, and bear in themselves the seed of suffering and misery. With regard to the 3 remaining Truths, it is said that the terms 'origin', 'cessation', and 'path', used in the texts, do not necessarily always refer to the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Truth. The 'Origination-Truth' namely, refers according to the Abhidhamma, only to Craving (ta.nhaa), the 'Cessation-Truth' to the cessation of Craving, the 'Path-Truth' to the noble (ariya) Path leading to final Deliverance. The method here followed, is everywhere the same as in the Khandha-Yamaka." **** S: I'll type out the summary of the next section "Process" next time. Metta Sarah ======== #100717 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:00 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: Me: "...Howard seems to refer to quasi-permanent states which literally dim in the presence of mundane jhaana, rather than adhering to a model that allows for arising and falling away of impermanent dhammaa..." H: "Not my intention." Scott: Do you agree that it is the non-arising of the hindrances that results in 'weakening?' That is, that the hindrances cannot arise while the jhaana factors are in ascendance and thus are not strengthened through not arising. Sincerely, Scott. #100718 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 9/18/2009 11:02:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: Me: "...Howard seems to refer to quasi-permanent states which literally dim in the presence of mundane jhaana, rather than adhering to a model that allows for arising and falling away of impermanent dhammaa..." H: "Not my intention." Scott: Do you agree that it is the non-arising of the hindrances that results in 'weakening?' ---------------------------------------------- Yes, the non-arising or the arising with less strength. There are degrees to things. --------------------------------------------- That is, that the hindrances cannot arise while the jhaana factors are in ascendance and thus are not strengthened through not arising. --------------------------------------------- I agree, but not ONLY during jhana. Repeated non-arising of hindances during jhana (and at other times) conditions further non-arising (or weakened arising). Conversely, the more frequently hindrances arise with unabated strength,the more likely will that happen again, I believe. ---------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100719 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Yes, the non-arising or the arising with less strength. There are degrees to things...Conversely, the more frequently hindrances arise with unabated strength,the more likely will that happen again, I believe." Scott: Do you have any textual support for the notion of 'strength' of hindrances - 'degrees.' For example, with kusala dhammaa, there is the notion of gradation, but where is this shown for akusala? Isn't 'strength' a function of frequency of arising? Things don't stay around long enough do they? Sincerely, Scott. #100720 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Khun Sujin, from another board. truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Sun, 13/9/09, truth_aerator wrote: > > > My addition: When the Buddha has talked about 12 ayatana or 18 dhatus, etc etc, he was NOT interested or intending to merely describe "what is". What he wanted to show is that the experience happens due to causes and conditions and that is beyond mastery, impermanent, subject to become otherwise, not-Self and not to be clung to. His purpose was more practical than giving another theory on the ultimate constituents of the "world out there" which were dime a dozen in Ancient India. > .... > S: My understanding, on the contrary, is that when the Buddha talked about the ayatanas, dhatus etc, he was very interested in describing 'what is', the realities 'now' which have to be known. Yes, it's not another 'theory', but it's only by describing and undersatanding 'what is' now, that the causes and conditions, the anatta aspect of dhammas can be known. So we agree that the teachings are very, very practical. > > Seeing is dhamma/abhidhamma now. Visible object is dhamma now. Phassa is dhamma now. Vedana is dhamma now. > > Metta > > Sarah > ==== Hi Sarah, We can agree to disagree. I believe in the pragmatic and liberative effect of the Buddha's teaching. You know, it may be very easy to question the ontological things that He has taught. But results you cannot question as much, the removal of stress does matter - pragmatically. With metta, Alex #100721 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard In a message dated 9/18/2009 1:03:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Yes, the non-arising or the arising with less strength. There are degrees to things...Conversely, the more frequently hindrances arise with unabated strength,the more likely will that happen again, I believe." Scott: Do you have any textual support for the notion of 'strength' of hindrances - 'degrees.' For example, with kusala dhammaa, there is the notion of gradation, but where is this shown for akusala? Isn't 'strength' a function of frequency of arising? Things don't stay around long enough do they? -------------------------------------------------- I have nothing to quote for you, Scott. For me, non-occurrence or lessened occurrence of harmful conditions is occurrence of useful conditions. Non-arising of hatred is an arising of non-hatred, etc. ------------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100722 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "I have nothing to quote for you, Scott. For me, non-occurrence or lessened occurrence of harmful conditions is occurrence of useful conditions. Non-arising of hatred is an arising of non-hatred, etc." Scott: Okay. This seems to suggest that you see dosa and adosa as being on the same continuum, and not that they are two separate dhammaa. I don't think that it stands to reason that when dosa is not present adosa is. Any dhamma can arise when dosa is not present. Sincerely, Scott. #100723 From: "colette" Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowing realities as naama and as ruupa. no 2. ksheri3 Hi Nina, Very Good post on distinguishing NAAMA and RUPA i.e. the use of DOSA as the spotlight. <......> I like how Kh S used "dosa" as a "naama", an emotion subsistant on a value structure, a heirarchy, then went on to clearly show that these emotional desires are worthless and valueless, ULTIMATELY, and that "they are not me", THE EXACT SUTTA THAT I WAS THINKING OF EACH TIME I WAS CORRESPONDING TO BOTH SCOTT AND LUCAS ON THEIR BLINDNESS. SURELY it hasn't taken KhS and Nina many thousands of lifetimes to know and to understand what it is that I'm talking about and so they agree with me: "Anyone can see" or do they agree with Freddie Mercury, who wrote those lyrics, that I used firstly for the application of NOTHING to Sunyata and the Madhymika but was given such generosity to find that the sentence "NOTHING REALLY MATTERS" is followed by the "bonus points" (see Pin Ball Wizardry) of "Anyone can see". That condition, the condition of seeing what I'm speaking of in this lifetime without having to go thousands of lifetimes paying thousands of dues, the aspirant can gain ENLIGHTENMENT here and now. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends: > > Rob K: When sati is aware pf dosa, is it aware of dosa as naama or is > it aware of dosa as dosa? > Kh S: In what sense is there awareness of dosa as dosa? Dosa is naama. > Everyone knows when dosa arises, that it is dosa. But what is its > characterisitic? What is the true nature of dosa? It is not self, it > is a reality which is naama, different from other naamas. We should > become familiar with the characteristic of naama so that we will know > that it is not my dosa at all. <....> #100724 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 9/18/2009 4:42:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "I have nothing to quote for you, Scott. For me, non-occurrence or lessened occurrence of harmful conditions is occurrence of useful conditions. Non-arising of hatred is an arising of non-hatred, etc." Scott: Okay. This seems to suggest that you see dosa and adosa as being on the same continuum, and not that they are two separate dhammaa. I don't think that it stands to reason that when dosa is not present adosa is. Any dhamma can arise when dosa is not present. Sincerely, Scott. ============================== Yes, I do see it as a continuum. Another point, though, that I would make is the following: I don't view abatement of the hindrances as *directly* conditioning further abatement, but indirectly. The suppression of the hindrances leads into jhana and the jhana factors, and that calms and clears the mind, making future suppression of the hindrances easier. Conditionality often operates cyclically or, better, in a spiral fashion. In that regard, please see the (not very good rendering of) first 2 suttas of the book of tens in AN. With metta, Howard __________________________________________ 1. Kimatthiyasuttaü For what reason are merits 1. I heard thus. At one time The Blessed One was abiding in the monastery offered by Anàthapiõóika in Jeta's grove in Sàvatthi. Venerable ânanda approached The Blessed One, worshipped, sat on a side and said: Venerable sir, for what reason and benefits are clever virtues?" ânanda, clever virtues are for the reason and benefit of non-remorse. Venerable sir, for what reason and benefits is non-remorse?" ânanda, non-remorse is for the reason and benefit of delight. Venerable sir, for what reason and benefits is delight?" ânanda, delight is for the reason and benefit of joy" Venerable sir, for what reason and benefits is joy?" ânanda, joy is for the reason and benefit of tranquility. Venerable sir, for what reason and benefits is tranquility?" ânanda, tranquility is for the reason and benefit of pleasantness. Venerable sir, for what reason and benefits is pleasantness?" ânanda, pleasantness is for the reason and benefit of concentration. Venerable sir, for what reason and benefits is concentration?" ânanda, concentration is for the reason and benefit of the vision of things as they really are" Venerable sir, for what reason and benefits is the vision of things as they really are?" ânanda, the vision of things as they really are, is for the reason and benefit of turning away and disenchantment" Venerable sir, for what reason and benefits is turning away and disenchantment?" nanda, turning away and disenchantment is for the reason and benefit of the knowledge and vision of release" Thus ânanda, clever virtues are for the reason and benefit of non-remorse. Non-remorse is for the reason and benefit of delight. Delight is for the reason and benefit of joy. Joy is for the reason and benefit of tranquility. Tranquility is for the reason and benefit of pleasantness. Pleasantness is for the reason and benefit of concentration. Concentration is for the reason and benefit of knowledge and vision of seeing things as they really are. Knowledge and vision of seeing things as they really are, is for the reason and benefit of turning away and disenchantment. Turning away and disenchantment is for knowledge and vision of release. Thus ânanda, clever virtues lead to the highest. 2. Cetanàkaranãyasuttaü Ý Intending 2. Bhikkhus, someone who has clever virtues, need not intend. `May non-remorse come to me.' It is the general rule for non-remorse to arise to a virtuous person. Someone who has no remorse, need not intend. `May delight come to me.' It is the general rule for delight to arise to one without remorse. Someone who is delighted need not intend. `May joy come to me.' It is the general rule for joy to arise to a delighted one. Someone who is joyful need not intend. `May my body be appeased' It is the general rule for the joyful to experience appeasement of the body. Someone with an appeased body need not intend. `May I feel pleasant.'It is the general rule for one with an appeased body to feel pleasant. A pleasant one, need not intend. `May my mind be concentrated.' It is the general rule for the pleasant one to be concentrated. Bhikkhus, someone with a concentrated mind need not intend. `May I know and see it, as it really is. It is the general rule for the concentrated to know and see as it really is. Bhikkhus, someone who knows and sees, as it really is, need not intend. `May I turn away and be disenchanted.' It is the general rule for one who knows and sees to turn away and be disenchanted. Bhikkhus, the one who has turned away and become disenchanted need not intend. `May I realize knowledge and vision of release' It is the general rule for one who turned away and is disenchanted to realize knowledge and vision of release. Thus bhikkhus turning away and disenchantment is for knowledge and vision of release and its benefits. Knowledge and vision of seeing things as they really are, is for turning away and disenchantment and its benefits. Concentration is for knowledge and vision of seeing things as they really are, and their benefits. Pleasantness is for concentration and its benefits. Tranquility is for pleasantness and its benefits. Joy is for tranquility and its benefits. Delight is for joy and its benefits. Non-remorse is for delight and its benefits. Clever virtues are for non-remorse and its benefits. Thus bhikkhus, thoughts overflow from thoughts and get completed by thoughts, while they flow up and down. #100725 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali hantun1 Dear Sarah (Chew, Nina), Thank you very much for the summary of A. Delimitation of Terms, from V Sacca-Yamaka. I look forward to the summary of the next section "Process" which you will be posting the next time. By the way, I found in Abhidhamma Pitaka The Basket of Abhidhamma http://nt.med.ncku.edu.tw/biochem/lsn/AccessToInsight/html/canon/abhidhamma/inde\ x.html the following: Yamaka ("The Book of Pairs"). This book is a logical analysis of many concepts presented in the earlier books. In the words of Mrs. Rhys Davids, an eminent 20th century Pali scholar, the ten chapters of the Yamaka amount to little more than "ten valleys of dry bones." What do you think about the comments by Mrs. Rhys Davids? Respectfully, Han #100726 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:43 pm Subject: Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . kenhowardau Hi Jon, -------- <. . .> J: I'm not sure why this passage is seen as being dogmatic. --------- Checking the dictionary I see 'dogmatic' can have derogatory connotations, in which case I have used the wrong word. What I meant was the texts seem to state in black and white terms: parents are wonderful people to whom their offspring are deeply indebted. ----------------------------- J: > As we know, the Buddha simply explained what *is* (not what should be done). In this case he is illustrating the extent of one's indebtedness to those who brought one into the world in this lifetime. I understand the passage to be illustrative, hypothetical even ("even if one were to do such and such it would not sufficiently repay... ") rather than to be suggesting a particular form of conduct to be followed. ----------------------------- Yes, no argument on the "should be done" aspect. The part I am having trouble with is that "all parents are wonderful." Let me put it this way: Person A stares at a candle and thinks, "I am practising visible-object-mindfulness in accordance with the Dhamma." Person B sees his father and thinks, "There, according to the Dhamma, is a wonderful person to whom I am deeply indebted." My question is, is A wrong and B right? Is A imposing a conventional run-of-the-mill meaning onto the Dhamma and B not? ------------- KH: > > This dogmatic language seems quite > incongruous. (Especially when we know there are some bad parents.) > > J: > I suppose the emphasis is on the fact of bringing one into the world. ------------- Hmm, I'll need to think about that. There can be involuntary, resentful, "bringing into the world" can't there? And also, some parents might voluntarily, without resentment, bring children into the world but simply in order to enslave, or sell, them. Are those children indebted to their parents? ----------------------------- KH: > >So I > asked you rhetorically, which of the paramattha dhammas was called > "parent?" > > Yes, or "spouse" or "good friend in the dhamma" or "Buddha" or "stream-enterer". There's no reason why such a question need be a rhetorical one ;-)) A perfectly valid, and useful, line of inquiry. ---------------------------------- I had reached an understanding of 'good friend' 'Buddha' and 'stream-enterer' (that ultimately they were kusala dhammas accompanied by panna), but I'm not so sure about 'spouse' or 'parent.' It seems to me that, ultimately, they could be any kind of dhamma. (?) Or maybe the present citta could look upon the immediately preceding citta as the one that 'brought it into the world.' :-) ------------------------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > I am sure some people at the meeting would have been thinking "Won't > that depend on cultural traditions and other circumstances?" But K Sujin > was quite adamant. > > J: > But is this a case of "treating concepts as if they were dhammas"? Or simply a view as to the meaning of the precept. -------------------------------------------- I don't know. I am out of my depth in these conversations. I never know if we are talking about precepts at the ultimate level (of conditioned dhammas) or at the pannatti level (of people and marriage certificates). -------------------- <. . .> J: > Yes, it's of no significance whether the person correctly knows in conventional terms his/her present mode of activity. But I don't think anyone was suggesting that it was (only that the direct understanding of a presently arising dhamma does not preclude that kind of conventional knowledge). --------------------- It began when we were talking about "an act of dana." I equated knowing an act of dana with knowing an act of walking. Both (when it came to satipatthana) equally unnecessary. ------------- KH: > > Thinking about it, I see that quite a lot of Dhamma study revolves > around concepts. Kamma-pathas, for example. > > J: > *All* Dhamma study involves concepts. Nothing new there. Or is there? ;-)) ------------- What I meant was, quite a lot of Dhamma study involves knowing one kamma-patha from another. That is, knowing one kusala (or akusala) cetana-cetasika from another kusala (or akusala) cetana-cetasika. To do that, we have to know the concepts associated with them. Another part of Dhamma study is to know which particular kind of rebirth follows which kamma patha. (e.g., as Sarah has just mentioned, birth in Avici hell follows from killing a parent.) I don't see the significance of it. That's not to say it isn't significant: just that I don't see it. Ken H #100727 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Yes, I do see it as a continuum. Another point, though, that I would make is the following: I don't view abatement of the hindrances as *directly* conditioning further abatement, but indirectly. The suppression of the hindrances leads into jhana and the jhana factors, and that calms and clears the mind, making future suppression of the hindrances easier. Conditionality often operates cyclically or, better, in a spiral fashion. In that regard, please see the (not very good rendering of) first 2 suttas of the book of tens in AN." Scott: Revisiting: Me: "...Howard seems to refer to quasi-permanent states which literally dim in the presence of mundane jhaana, rather than adhering to a model that allows for arising and falling away of impermanent dhammaa..." H: "Not my intention." Scott: I find that the notion of a dhamma being on a continuum is exactly the sort of quasi-permanent postulate I was suggesting you were referring to. You would have to posit that dosa, which is at one end of the suggested continuum, can slide or move into adosa, which is situated at the other end of the same continuum. This does away with the Abhidhamma notion of arising and falling away. I don't see how you can get away from having to maintain that dhammaa are quasi-permanent, flowing states. And this would completely be at odds with an Abhidhamma exegesis. The whole explanation of jhaana as being something that comes from the morphing of hindrances into jhaana factors defies justification as far as I can see it. What suppresses the hindrances if it isn't the jhaana factors? This doesn't seem to be at all what you are suggesting. I've not seen such an explanation given in the texts. I'll examine the suttas when I have some more time, thanks, Howard. Perhaps here there is evidence in favour of what you are trying to say. Sincerely, Scott. 1. Kimatthiyasutta� > [text portions of this message have been removed] > c. #100728 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali hantun1 Dear Chew, In my previous post, I had written as follows: [What I find is the "Nissaya" method of Burmese translation and the "Ayakauk" are almost the same. The difference is the Pali paragraph numbers are mentioned in the "Nissaya" method of Burmese translation and not in the "Ayakauk". So I find it easier to refer to the "Nissaya" method of Burmese translation.] That was true only in the beginning of the chapter. Later, I found that my above assessment was completely wrong! -------------------- When you wrote [the Pavattivaara, Section on Process, which is the most interesting part. There are many dhamma we have to find out. This is also the place where we need the Burmese book 'Ayakauk' to provide us the information.] I jumped to that Section. Then only I found the difference between "Ayakauk" and other books. There is no comparison. Ayakauk is *the* book! -------------------- It reminds me about one old Burmese saying that we used to say during pre-WWII colonial days. There is one hill tribe in Burma who are very honest and very courageous, but naïve. If you gave them a very good quality ruby, they might throw it away, not knowing the value of a ruby. So when we saw someone who had a very valuable thing in his possession, but if he did not know how to make use of it, we say that "it is a ruby in the hands of those hill tribe people". In the same way, Ayakauk in my hands is like a ruby in the hands of those hill tribe people. I only wish you can read Burmese, and I will be very happy to give the book to you, knowing very well that you will make the best use of it. I will continue to read the Ayakauk as best as I can, but without a good teacher, I think it might just be an impossible mission. Respectfully, Han #100729 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:12 am Subject: Re: Yamaka Pali chewsadhu Dear Han, The ruby is still in your hand. Let's study together. We have Nina, Sarah, and others to help too. With the help of 'Ayakauk', the studying of Yamaka become very interesting. It is no longer 'DRY' anymore. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100730 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - Scott: I find that the notion of a dhamma being on a continuum is exactly the sort of quasi-permanent postulate I was suggesting you were referring to. -------------------------------------------- This notion of continuum has nothing to do with permanence, impermanence, or time. You're mixing apples and oranges. When I am speaking of a continuum, I'm speaking of something like temperature, one of the 4 great elements, that ranges from cold to hot. ------------------------------------------------ You would have to posit that dosa, which is at one end of the suggested continuum, can slide or move into adosa, which is situated at the other end of the same continuum. This does away with the Abhidhamma notion of arising and falling away. ------------------------------------------------ If you are talking about discrete states as "realities," yes, I do not except that notion. Nothing remains the same for any time at all, as far as I'm concerned. Thus anicca already implies anatta. I reject discreteness except as a matter of convention. ---------------------------------------------- I don't see how you can get away from having to maintain that dhammaa are quasi-permanent, flowing states. --------------------------------------------- For me, what you call "realities" are a matter of convention. ---------------------------------------- And this would completely be at odds with an Abhidhamma exegesis. ---------------------------------------------------- Perhaps so. Your point? :-) ----------------------------------------------- The whole explanation of jhaana as being something that comes from the morphing of hindrances into jhaana factors defies justification as far as I can see it. ----------------------------------------------- I speak of no such thing. To believe that there is something that morphs into something else requires believing in that something as a reality to begin with and not just as a matter of concept and convention. I do not believe in entities as realities but only as conventions. ------------------------------------------------ What suppresses the hindrances if it isn't the jhaana factors? ---------------------------------------------- Entering the 1st jhana and suppressing the hindrances are inseparable. And how does jhana entry happen? It happens due to cultivation of sila and samadhi, by right effort and meditation. ------------------------------------------- This doesn't seem to be at all what you are suggesting. I've not seen such an explanation given in the texts. I'll examine the suttas when I have some more time, thanks, Howard. Perhaps here there is evidence in favour of what you are trying to say. Sincerely, Scott. ========================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100731 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:07 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (53) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ Our intentions are not only communicated by gestures, but also by speech. Speech intimation (vacívi~n~natti) is a kind of ruupa, originated by citta. The "Dhammasanga.nii" (Ch II, § 637) states: "What is that ruupa which is intimation by language (vacívi~n~natti)? That speech, voice, enunciation, utterance, noise, making noises, language as articulate speech, which expresses a thought whether good, bad, or indeterminate - this is called language. And that intimation, that making known, the state of having made known by language - this is that ruupa which constitutes intimation by language." When someone's intention is intimated through speech, it is intelligible to others. The meaning of what is intimated is known by reflection about it, thus, it is cognizable through the mind-door. Speech intimation itself does not know anything, it is ruupa. Citta is one of the factors that produces the "eight inseparable ruupas" of the body and among them the element of earth or hardness plays a specific part in the conditioning of speech intimation. The "Visuddhimagga" (XIV, 62) [Note 3] states that the function of speech intimation is to display intention, its manifestation is causing speech sound, and that its proximate cause is the earth element originated from citta. The proximate cause of bodily intimation is the element of wind or motion which is produced by citta, whereas the proximate cause of speech intimation is the element of earth or hardness which is produced by citta. When speech-intimation occurs it is the condition for the rúpas which are the means of articulation, such as ruupas of the lips, to produce speech sound. [Note 3] See Atthasaalinii I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 86,87, and II, Book II, Part I, Ch 3, 324. ----------------------------- Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech to be continued. with metta, Han #100732 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma scottduncan2 Dear Howard (here we go - and come to a halt...), Regarding: H: "This notion of continuum has nothing to do with permanence, impermanence, or time. You're mixing apples and oranges. When I am speaking of a continuum, I'm speaking of something like temperature, one of the 4 great elements, that ranges from cold to hot." Scott: I'm afraid this just diverges more and more from the texts as I understand them. You are positing things that change over time. You can't get around it, Howard. The fire element does not 'range from cold to hot.' Dosa does not become adosa. H: "If you are talking about discrete states as 'realities,' yes, I do not except that notion. Nothing remains the same for any time at all, as far as I'm concerned. Thus anicca already implies anatta. I reject discreteness except as a matter of convention...For me, what you call 'realities' are a matter of convention." Scott: This is a view that is not consistent with the texts, most of all Abhidhamma. H: "...To believe that there is something that morphs into something else requires believing in that something as a reality to begin with and not just as a matter of concept and convention. I do not believe in entities as realities but only as conventions." Scott: Okay, this is beyond anything I can accept, Howard. You've not moved at all from the insubstantialist propensities of old. Entities as conventions? Do you suggest that convention is synonymous with concept? What does such a statement actually mean? H: "Entering the 1st jhana and suppressing the hindrances are inseparable. And how does jhana entry happen? It happens due to cultivation of sila and samadhi, by right effort and meditation." Scott: 'Inseparable?' For you nothing is separate. 'Jhaana entry'...this doesn't even make sense. I've not had to deal with this insubstantialism for awhile and now it all comes back to me. My apologies for having started to discuss, Howard. I'd not foreseen (although I should have) the direction of your arguments. I don't buy them and we'll go nowhere fast. Sorry again. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #100733 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:10 am Subject: In the Sangha's Presence! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Contemplating the Unique Qualities of the Sangha: Perfectly training is this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's Noble disciples! Training the right way, the true way, the good way, the direct way! Therefore do these eight kinds of individuals, these four Noble pairs, deserve both gifts, sacrifice, offerings, hospitality & reverential salutation with joined palms, since this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's Noble disciples, is an unsurpassable and forever unsurpassed field of merit, in this world, for this world, to honour, support, respect and protect... As long as he recollects the special qualities of the Sangha in this way, indeed defined as 'having entered on the good way', then: On that occasion his mind cannot be obsessed by greed, or obsessed by hate, or obsessed by delusion; his mind possess integrity on that occasion, being inspired by the Sangha (AN III 286). When a bhikkhu is devoted to this recollection of the Community, he is respectful and deferential towards the Community. He attains fullness of faith! He has much happiness and bliss. He conquers fear & dread. He is able to endure pain. He feels as if he were living in the Community's presence. When dwelling in the recollection of the Sangha's special qualities his body becomes as worthy of veneration as an Uposatha house, where the Community has met. His mind tends towards the attainment of the Community's special qualities. When he encounters yet an opportunity for transgression, he has awareness of conscience and shame as vividly as if he were face to face with the Community. And if he penetrates no higher, he is at least headed for a happy destiny. Vism I 221 Now when a man is truly wise, His constant task will surely be This recollection of the Sangha Blessed with such mighty potency. <....> Have a nice noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #100734 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali sarahprocter... Dear Han (Chew, Nina & all), --- On Sat, 19/9/09, han tun wrote: >Thank you very much for the summary of A. Delimitation of Terms, from V Sacca-Yamaka. I look forward to the summary of the next section "Process" which you will be posting the next time. .... S: Coming up... .... >By the way, I found in Abhidhamma Pitaka The Basket of Abhidhamma http://nt.med. ncku.edu. tw/biochem/ lsn/AccessToInsi ght/html/ canon/abhidhamma /index.html the following: >Yamaka ("The Book of Pairs"). This book is a logical analysis of many concepts presented in the earlier books. In the words of Mrs. Rhys Davids, an eminent 20th century Pali scholar, the ten chapters of the Yamaka amount to little more than "ten valleys of dry bones." >What do you think about the comments by Mrs. Rhys Davids? .... S: Yes, this is often quoted. Many would say the same about the entire Abhidhamma. I think it all depends on whether we see any relevance in what we read to the understanding of the present moment dhammas or not. For example, now there may be unpleasant bodily or mental feeling. Everyone knows this is 'suffering'. But do we realise at this moment that pleasant feeling is also 'suffering' or Dukkha? Do we realise that both wholesome and unwholesome mental states are Dukkha? And we've all read and heard for so long that the cause of all Dukkha is attachment, but is this really understood at this moment? And is it only attachment which is the cause of Dukkha, or all kamma, all wholesome and unwholesome states? By the way, on the question about ta.nhaa not being included in Dukkha, there is an interesting and relevant section in the Sacca-Vibhanga on the 4NT in the Vibhanga. From Nyantiloka's summary in his Guide: "The first set of explanations has the following wording: 'Four Truths: Suffering, Origin of Suffering, Extinction of Suffering, the Path leading to the Extinction of Suffering. 'What is here the Origin of Suffering? - Craving (ta.nhaa). 'What is here Suffering? - a) the remaining defilements (kilesa), b) the remaining karmically unwholesome states, c) the three wholesome roots, as far as subject to Taints (tiini ca kusala-muulaani saasavaani), d) the remaining wholesome states, as far as subject to Taints, e) the karma-results (vipaaka) of wholesome and unwholesome states, f) the states that are independent of karma (functional; kriyaa), being neither wholesome nor unwholesome nor karma-results; and g) all corporeality." S: And now an interesting part in Nyantiloka's summary from the same chapter: "In the 2nd to 5th set of the first section, the factors b) to d) in the definition of the 1st Truth, are successively transposed into the definition of the 2nd Truth, so that in the last, the 5th, set only the factors e), f) and g) remain as the definition of the 1st Truth. Also the definition of the 3rd Truth varies in accordance with the increasing number of factors given for the 2nd Truth (Origin). 'The fifth and last set of this first section of the Abhidhamma explanation may, therefore, be summarized as follows: The 2nd Truth (Origin) consists here of Craving and of all Kamma, wholesome and unwholesome; the 1st Truth (Suffering)consists of all remaining mundane (lokiya) states of consciousness (i.e. karma-results and karmically independent, or functional states, and of all corporeality. 'The permutations between the definitions of the 2nd and 1st Truth indicate that, according to a given case or a chosen viewpoint, these two truths may be formulated with certain variations, up to a maximum or down to a minimum of factors. The first set gives the single minimal factor for the 2nd Truth, and the maximal number of factors for the 1st; the fifth set gives the maximal number of factors for the 2nd Truth, and the minimal for the 1st." I'm just quoting this in case it's relevant to the Yamaka section as well. In any case, it's relevant to an understanding of this moment (which isn't a matter of textual 'dry bones', regardless of what Mrs R-D thought:-). Metta Sarah ========= #100735 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? sarahprocter... Hi pt & all, typos that may affect the understanding of the passage: --- On Fri, 18/9/09, sarah abbott wrote: >From Sammohavinodanii (Dispeller, 32149) S: This should have read: (Dispeller, 2149) <...> And, in the following, I have no idea what a 'muna' is: " (i) For a muna who, although with the intention: 'I shall kill a ram,' yet kills a human mother or father standing in the ram's place, reaps immediate effect. But one who, (ii) with the intention of killing a ram or (iii) with the intention of killing his mother or father, kills a ram, does not reap immediate effect. (iv) One who, with the intention of killing his mother or father, kills his mother or father, reaps immediate effect." ..... S: It should have read: " (i) For a *human* who, although with the intention: 'I shall kill a ram,' yet kills a human mother or father standing in the ram's place, reaps immediate effect. But one who, (ii) with the intention of killing a ram or (iii) with the intention of killing his mother or father, kills a ram, does not reap immediate effect. (iv) One who, with the intention of killing his mother or father, kills his mother or father, reaps immediate effect." [apology deleted:-)] Metta Sarah ======== #100736 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali sarahprocter... Dear Han, Chew & all, From Nyantiloka's "Guide through the Abhidhamma-Pi.taka" Sacca Yamaka on the 4 Noble Truths: "B. Process 'a) Does to (every) one to whom the Dukkha-truth arises, also the Origination-truth arise? - (No; e.g.,) to all those, who are being reborn, arises, in the course of existence, at the moment of arising of consciousness disconnected with 'craving' (Origination-truth), the Dukkha-truth, but not the Origination-truth; at the appearance of craving, however, both do arise, the Dukkha-truth as well as the Origination-truth. 'b) 'But does to (every) one to whom the Origination-truth arises, also the Dukkha-truth arise? - Yes.' This is so for the reason that also Craving together with all the other mental phenomena, is subject to the Dukkha-truth. The remaining contents of this section may be summed up as follows:- In the immaterial (aruupa) world, at the arising of one of the (supramundane) Paths, the path-truth obtains, but not the Dukkha-truth. Amongst the Unconscious Beings (asa~n~na-satta), the Dukkha-truth is found, not the Origination- and Path-truth. In the worlds of the Four- and Five-group-beings, the Dukkha-, Origination-, and Path-truths do obtain. In the 4 Lower worlds (apaaya), the Dukkha- and Origination-truth do obtain but not the Path-truth.. The Cessation-truth (Nirvaana) is not mentioned in this chapter, as no arising or ceasing of the same is possible." Interesting. I'll look forward to your further discussions and elaborations! Metta Sarah ======== #100737 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali chewsadhu Dear Sarah, > This is so for the reason that also Craving together with all the other mental phenomena, is subject to the Dukkha-truth. The remaining contents of this section may be summed up as follows:- > When lobha cetasika (Origination-Truth) is arising, lobhamuulacitta and its remaining associated cetasika (Suffering-Truth) also are arising. May all being be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100738 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 9/18/2009 11:13:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard (here we go - and come to a halt...), Regarding: H: "This notion of continuum has nothing to do with permanence, impermanence, or time. You're mixing apples and oranges. When I am speaking of a continuum, I'm speaking of something like temperature, one of the 4 great elements, that ranges from cold to hot." Scott: I'm afraid this just diverges more and more from the texts as I understand them. You are positing things that change over time. You can't get around it, Howard. The fire element does not 'range from cold to hot.' Dosa does not become adosa. ----------------------------------------------- I'm afraid I'm not making myself clear, Scott, for which I apologize. I'm not talking about something that is changing. I'm talking about a conceptual range of quality. Tejo dhaatu includes all extremes of both heat and cold - it spans that range. No one confuses the quality of coldness on a bitter cold winter day with desert heat, but it is a Buddhist convention to consider them both tejo dhaatu. I'm not talking about some thing that changes or "morphs". I hope this clarifies what I'm saying. ---------------------------------------------- H: "If you are talking about discrete states as 'realities,' yes, I do not except that notion. Nothing remains the same for any time at all, as far as I'm concerned. Thus anicca already implies anatta. I reject discreteness except as a matter of convention...For me, what you call 'realities' are a matter of convention." Scott: This is a view that is not consistent with the texts, most of all Abhidhamma. ------------------------------------------------------ Okay. That, however, is my perspective on anicca. Nothing remains as is for any time at all. It is merely convention, a matter of identifying, that describes things otherwise. ------------------------------------------------------ H: "...To believe that there is something that morphs into something else requires believing in that something as a reality to begin with and not just as a matter of concept and convention. I do not believe in entities as realities but only as conventions." Scott: Okay, this is beyond anything I can accept, Howard. You've not moved at all from the insubstantialist propensities of old. Entities as conventions? Do you suggest that convention is synonymous with concept? What does such a statement actually mean? ------------------------------------------------------------ I don't know why you can't understand what I'm saying. As for disagreeing, well, that's fine. ------------------------------------------------------------ H: "Entering the 1st jhana and suppressing the hindrances are inseparable. And how does jhana entry happen? It happens due to cultivation of sila and samadhi, by right effort and meditation." Scott: 'Inseparable?' For you nothing is separate. 'Jhaana entry'...this doesn't even make sense. ------------------------------------------------------------ It does to me. ------------------------------------------------------------- I've not had to deal with this insubstantialism for awhile and now it all comes back to me. My apologies for having started to discuss, Howard. I'd not foreseen (although I should have) the direction of your arguments. I don't buy them and we'll go nowhere fast. Sorry again. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------- That's fine, Scott. at least we are having a civil, even friendly, discussion. That's a real pleasure. --------------------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100739 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali hantun1 Dear Sarah and Chew (Nina), I thank Sarah very much for the two posts. I cannot contribute anything just now, because I cannot understand the Ayakauk. The Pali Text and the English translation of the Pali text are not difficult to understand. But the Ayakauk is very difficult. For example, the following is the first few lines of the explanation in Ayakauk for paragraph 27. There are a lot more. What I write below is just the beginning few lines. I cannot understand at all. Do you understand what does it say? [anulomapucchaa (yassa dukkhasacca.m uppajjati) as sanni.t.thaana means pa.tisandhi citta ekuunaviisa, cetasika pa~ncatimsa. Kammaja kalapa three groups, seven groups, four groups. From the beginning, jiivitanavaka kalapa ruupa uppaadakkha.na sama"ngii. All of the upapajjanta, puthujjana four, lower phala.t.thaana puggala three. Pa~ncavokaara pavatti, leaving aside four aruupavipaaka, citta without ta.nhaa 72, leaving aside lobha, di.t.thi, maana cetasika ekuunapa~n~naasa, cittaja-ruupa uppaadakkha.na sama"ngii, puthujjana four, ariyaan eight. …] Yours truly, Han #100740 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (37-39) and commentary. Part 1. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 37 Walshe DN 33.1.11(37) 'Four ways of descent into the womb: (a) One descends into the mother's womb unknowing, stays there unknowing, and leaves it unknowing; (b) one enters the womb knowing, stays there unknowing, and leaves it unknowing; (c) one enters the womb knowing, stays there knowing, and leaves it unknowing; (d) one enters the womb knowing, stays there knowing, and leaves it knowing (Catasso gabbhaavakkantiyo. Idhaavuso, ekacco asampajaano maatukucchi.m okkamati, asampajaano maatukucchismi.m .thaati, asampajaano maatukucchimhaa nikkhamati, aya.m pa.thamaa gabbhaavakkanti. Puna capara.m, aavuso, idhekacco sampajaano maatukucchi.m okkamati, asampajaano maatukucchismi.m .thaati, asampajaano maatukucchimhaa nikkhamati, aya.m dutiyaa gabbhaavakkanti. Puna capara.m, aavuso, idhekacco sampajaano maatukucchi.m okkamati, sampajaano maatukucchismi.m .thaati, asampajaano maatukucchimhaa nikkhamati, aya.m tatiyaa gabbhaavakkanti. Puna capara.m, aavuso, idhekacco sampajaano maatukucchi.m okkamati, sampajaano maatukucchismi.m .thaati, sampajaano maatukucchimhaa nikkhamati, aya.m catutthaa gabbhaavakkanti.) Notes: Walshe: These refer (1) to ordinary human beings, (2) to the eighty 'Great Elders', (3) to the two chief disciples of a Buddha, to Pacceka- Buddhas and Bodhisattas, (4) to 'omniscient Bodhisattas', i.e. those in their last rebirth, when about to become Buddhas. ------- N: No commentary to this sutta. The Bodhisatta was in the Tusita Heaven and when the time was right he descended into Queen Maya's womb to be born a human. We read in M. III, sutta 123: He entered the womb, stayed there and left the womb mindful and clearly conscious (sampajano). He was born a human for the sake to become an omniscient Buddha and teach others to develop the right Path leading to freedom from birth. --------- sutta 38 Walshe DN 33.1.11(38) 'Four ways of getting a new personality (attabhaava- pa.ti-laabhaa): There is an acquisition of personality that is brought about by (a) one's own volition, not another's, (b) another's volition, not one's one, (c) both, (d) neither. (Cattaaro attabhaavapa.tilaabhaa. Atthaavuso, attabhaavapa.tilaabho, yasmi.m attabhaavapa.tilaabhe attasa~ncetanaayeva kamati, no parasa~ncetanaa. Atthaavuso, attabhaavapa.tilaabho, yasmi.m attabhaavapa.tilaabhe parasa~ncetanaayeva kamati, no attasa~ncetanaa. Atthaavuso, attabhaavapa.tilaabho, yasmi.m attabhaavapa.tilaabhe attasa~ncetanaa ceva kamati parasa~ncetanaa ca. Atthaavuso, attabhaavapa.tilaabho, yasmi.m attabhaavapa.tilaabhe neva attasa~ncetanaa kamati, no parasa~ncetanaa.) ------------------ N: The Co: as to the first case, getting a new personality by one's own intention, this refers to the devas who are 'debauched by pleasure' (khi.d.daapadosika). They are burnt up by their infatuation. The subco adds that their death is due to forgetfulness (satisammosa): because of their infatuation they forget to take nutrition. As to the second case, this refers to the slaughtering of an animal by the butcher. Its death is brought about by the intention of another. The third case refers to the devas who are debauched by envy (manopadosika). They belong to the deva world of the four Great Kings. They burn with envy; body and mind become weak and they fall away from that deva world. Their death is due to the intention of both themselves and of others. The fourth case refers to other devas of the world of the four Great Kings: their falling away from that world is neither due to their own intention nor to the intention of others. The subco. adds that their death is due to consummation of merit (pu~n~nakkhaya). N: This text illustrates the danger and disadvantages of birth. Life in a deva world lasts long, but even devas have to fall away from that state. Devas experience pleasant objects, but they may become infatuated or they may be envious. Or their merit is used up; birth in that plane is due to kusala kamma, but it depends on the kamma that produced their birth how long life in that plane can last. It does not last forever. Co: Attabhaavapa.tilaabhesu pa.thamo khi.d.daapadosikavasena veditabbo.... ______ Nina. #100741 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali chewsadhu Dear Han, > [anulomapucchaa (yassa dukkhasacca.m uppajjati) as sanni.t.thaana means pa.tisandhi citta ekuunaviisa, cetasika pa~ncatimsa. Kammaja kalapa three groups, seven groups, four groups. From the beginning, jiivitanavaka kalapa ruupa uppaadakkha.na sama"ngii. All of the upapajjanta, puthujjana four, lower phala.t.thaana puggala three. > Pa~ncavokaara pavatti, leaving aside four aruupavipaaka, citta without ta.nhaa 72, leaving aside lobha, di.t.thi, maana cetasika ekuunapa~n~naasa, cittaja-ruupa uppaadakkha.na sama"ngii, puthujjana four, ariyaan eight. …] > For para 27: (Ka) yassa dukkhasacca.m uppajjati tassa samudayasacca.m uppajjatiiti? Sabbesa.m upapajjantaana.m pavatte tan.haavippayuttacittassa uppaadakkhan.e tesa.m dukkhasacca.m uppajjati, no ca tesa.m samudayasaca.m uppajjati. Tan.haaya uppaadakkhan.e tesa.m dukkhasacca~nca uppajjati samudayasacca~nca uppajjati. This '(Ka) yassa dukkhasacca.m uppajjati' is [sanni.t.thaana] of[anulomapucchaa]. This 'tassa samudayasacca.m uppajjatiiti?' is [sa.msaya] of[anulomapucchaa]. In the answer can be seperated into: 1a. Sabbesa.m upapajjantaana.m tesa.m dukkhasacca.m uppajjati, no ca tesa.m samudayasaca.m uppajjati. 1b. Sabbesa.m pavatte tan.haavippayuttacittassa uppaadakkhan.e tesa.m dukkhasacca.m uppajjati, no ca tesa.m samudayasaca.m uppajjati. 2. Sabbesa.m Tan.haaya uppaadakkhan.e tesa.m dukkhasacca~nca uppajjati samudayasacca~nca uppajjati. 'Sabbesa.m upapajjantaana.m' = At the birth moment of all beings. At the birth moment, the citta are 19 rebirth linking consciousness and its associated 35 cetasika [pa.tisandhi citta ekuunaviisa, cetasika pa~ncatimsa]. These dhamma are 'Dukkhasacca', when they are arising, 'Samudayasacca' is not arising. Because lobha cetasika does not arise at the birth moment. Kammaja kalapa that arise at the birth moment also are called 'Dukkhasacca'. There are 4 kinds of Kammaja kalapa that arise at the birth moment, which are group of three, group of seven, group of four, and jiivitanavaka kalapa ruupa. What is group of three? For egg-born beings (an.daja) and womb-born beings (jalaabuja), both are called gabbhaseyyakasattaana.m, at the birth moment, there are three groups of kammaja kalapa arising, which are kaayadasaka, bhaavadasaka, and vatthudasaka. What is group of seven? For moisture-born beings (sa.msedaja) and beings having spontaneous birth (opapaatika), at the birth moment, there are seven groups of kammaja kalapa arising, which are cakkhudasaka, sotadasaka, ghaanadasaka, jivhaadasaka, kaayadasaka, bhaavadasaka, and vatthudasaka. What is group of four? For ruupaavacara beings, at the birth moment, there are four groups of kammaja kalapa arising, which are cakkhudasaka, sotadasaka, vatthudasaka, and jiivitanavaka. For non-percipient beings (asa~n~nasatta), at the birth moment, there is only the vital nonad arising (jiivitanavaka). These four kinds of kammaja kalapa are 'Dukkhasacca', at the birth moment, 'Dukkhasacca' is arising, but not 'Samudayasacca' is arising. Because lobha cetasika is not arising at the birth moment. ==== Han: [All of the upapajjanta, puthujjana four, lower phala.t.thaana puggala three. ] ==== Usually 'Sabbesa.m' (All beings) are the 12 puggala. i.e. 4 ordinary beings (puthujjanaa), 4 Path beings (maggat.t.ha), and 4 Fruition beings (phalat.t.ha). But here 'Sabbesa.m upapajjantaana.m' only refer to those who will be reborn, which are 4 puthujjanaa, and 3 lower phalat.t.ha beings. The 4 maggat.t.ha beings and arahatta phalat.t.ha beings are excluded at the birth moment, because they are not possible to be reborn. Because the next citta that arises after maggacitta is phalacitta, and there are no more rebirth after arahatta phalat.t.ha beings' cuti citta. Is the explanation clear up to here? May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100742 From: "colette" Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, Prof. Timothy Leary, aren't you called here? ksheri3 Good Morning Scott, HOLD IT, SLOW DOWN! > Scott: Okay. This seems to suggest that you see dosa and adosa as being on the same continuum, colette: Yes, DOSA and MOSA are certainly two different thing. Why have you failed to acknowledge the presence of Lobha? In the Abhidharma "LOSA MOSA AND DOSA" are lumped together and are always present when "WRONG VIEW" OR "WRONG LIFE" OR "WRONG LIVING" OR "WRONG PROGRAMMING" IS PRESENT. HUH? Wrong Programming, what is that whore talking about that we are to feed upon? I've just entered this topic so please allow for many problems and turbulences to occur. <...> -------------------------- I'm gonna let you slide on your use of the word "continuum" since I care to not use that word and don't have that much experience with it. HOWEVER. When you suggest that DOSA AND ADOSA ARE THE SAME then I will agree with you. Completely without hesitation. NO Questions asked. Dosa and Adosa are the exact same condition. I give you the Roman's gift to humanity called THE TRAGIC COMMEDY. -------------------------------------------------- Scott: I don't think that it stands to reason that when dosa is not present adosa is. colette: I agree completely. What is your problem? One of my oldest gambits has alway been AIR. I even used it on my website when I was going through a mid-life crisis at the UIC when I was making sport of the demise that greated those who chose to gratify themselves by the use of the exclusive World Trade Center zip code attached to their name. Where do you get this dream, this drug induced hallucination, that a linear train of thought has to exist in order for life to exist? What dictator gave you hallucination? <...> WELL I'VE HAD IT. <...> NO TIME TO FINISH MY RANT. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > Regarding: > > H: "I have nothing to quote for you, Scott. For me, non-occurrence or lessened occurrence of harmful conditions is occurrence of useful conditions. Non-arising of hatred is an arising of non-hatred, etc." > > Scott: Okay. This seems to suggest that you see dosa and adosa as being on the same continuum, and not that they are two separate dhammaa. I don't think that it stands to reason that when dosa is not present adosa is. Any dhamma can arise when dosa is not present. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #100743 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali hantun1 Dear Chew, Your explanations are very clear. I understand all of them. Based on these, I will try to read the rest of the Ayakauk for paragraph 27. If I find some difficulties, I will come back to you. You are very helpful. You also know the subject very well. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! Respectfully, Han #100744 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, Prof. Timothy Leary, aren't you called here? scottduncan2 Good Morning colette, Regarding: c: "...When you suggest that DOSA AND ADOSA ARE THE SAME then I will agree with you..." Scott: I'm saying they are NOT the same. In this I INSIST that you DISAGREE with me. c: "Dosa and Adosa are the exact same condition." Scott: They might be. Which condition were you thinking of? Me: "I don't think that it stands to reason that when dosa is not present adosa is." colette: "I agree completely. What is your problem?" Scott: Simply that, for some, dosa is seen to be at one end of a continuum with adosa at the other end and this simply CANNOT BE TOLERATED. THESE ARE TWO SEPARATE DHAMMAA, EACH WITH IT'S OWN DISTINCT CHARACTERISTIC AND THEY DO NOT FLOW INTO EACH OTHER. AND THAT'S FINAL. I hope things are well with you. Nice chatting. See you later, colette. Sincerely, Scott. #100745 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali chewsadhu Dear Han, The explanations are mostly from Sayadaw U Nandamala talks. But for the below elaboration, the [Sabbesa.m] is added by me. It is because, when I did the listing of the dhamma as below, I faced the problem. There are also other sets of beings in the text. To differentiate the 'Pavatte' from different sets of beings, I need to determine the set of beings. === In the answer can be seperated into: 1a. Sabbesa.m upapajjantaana.m tesa.m dukkhasacca.m uppajjati, no ca tesa.m samudayasaca.m uppajjati. 1b. [Sabbesa.m] pavatte tan.haavippayuttacittassa uppaadakkhan.e tesa.m dukkhasacca.m uppajjati, no ca tesa.m samudayasaca.m uppajjati. 2. [Sabbesa.m] Tan.haaya uppaadakkhan.e tesa.m dukkhasacca~nca uppajjati samudayasacca~nca uppajjati. === Next: >Han: Pa~ncavokaara pavatti, leaving aside four aruupavipaaka, citta without ta.nhaa 72, leaving aside lobha, di.t.thi, maana cetasika ekuunapa~n~naasa, cittaja-ruupa uppaadakkha.na sama"ngii, puthujjana four, ariyaan eight. This is for the 1b. [Sabbesa.m] pavatte tan.haavippayuttacittassa uppaadakkhan.e tesa.m dukkhasacca.m uppajjati, no ca tesa.m samudayasaca.m uppajjati. You also need to find out the dhamma. As for Pa~ncavokaara beings, what are the possible arising citta and cetasika. For Kaamaavacara beings, what are the possible arising citta and cetasika. For Ruupaavacara beings, what are the possible arising citta and cetasika. Also, at Pa~ncavokaara plane, who are the possible beings. At Kaamaavacara plane, who are the possible beings. At Ruupaavacara plane, who are the possible beings. At Aruupaavacara plane, who are the possible beings. Yamaka keeps you busy in searching the dhamma, rejoice in the dhamma. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100746 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:23 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 6, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Question: It is difficult to have right understanding of realities when one is a beginner. Answer: There must be intellectual understanding of the mental phenomena and physical phenomena which are the objects of understanding. One should know how to develop understanding. One has to know that it should be developed naturally in one's daily life. Many people just want to sit and concentrate on breathing, but they have to consider for themselves whether this is the way to know the realities of one's daily life. Is this the way to know seeing, hearing and all the other realities, and to know the clinging which arises on account of the experience of the sense objects? Defilements cannot be eradicated if one does not realize them as they arise in one's daily life. Right understanding of realities can be accumulated little by little if one develops it naturally, without trying to make particular realities arise, without trying to control realities. They arise already because of their own conditions. Understanding too can only arise when there are right conditions; one cannot control it. Question: Understanding is accumulated very gradually but is there not some result in the beginning, so that one is encouraged to continue to develop understanding? When one is a beginner one wants to see at least some result of one's practice. Answer: The result cannot be noticed immediately, it cannot be measured. However, as understanding develops there will be more confidence. There will be more understanding of why you feel bad or why you feel happy. You will face unpleasant situations with more understanding and you will be more tolerant towards other people; you will have more understanding about their way of behaviour. You will come to appreciate the value of right understanding more and more. Question: You spoke about seeing and hearing. It seems rather dull to have more understanding about them. Answer: If you just read about different realities it seems dull, but you should remember that they are the phenomena of your daily life. If you develop understanding of them when they appear, it is not boring but interesting. Question: I think that it is more interesting and beneficial to know about one's attachment, aversion and pleasant and unpleasant experiences in life. We should come to know our defilements, but why should we know seeing, hearing, hardness or softness? Is that really necessary? Answer: It is only by understanding all these different realities that there can be detachment from the idea of a self which conditions many defilements. We should come to understand that there is nobody who sees, nobody who hears, that there are only different conditioned realities. Thus, the idea of self will be eliminated. ******* Nina. #100747 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali nilovg Dear Chew, Thank you very much for your renderings. It is good that you listened to the talks and can help us in this way. I have trouble with anuloma and pa.ti loma in this context. Anuloma is in order and pa.tiloma is in the opposite way. And is Ka and Kha an abrevation? I am also thinking of the reader who is not familiar with the Pali and who does not know for example what is a vital nonad. I wonder whether we could go more slowly? With appreciation, Nina. Op 19-sep-2009, om 16:26 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > [anulomapucchaa (yassa dukkhasacca.m uppajjati) as sanni.t.thaana > means pa.tisandhi citta ekuunaviisa, cetasika pa~ncatimsa. > Kammaja kalapa three groups, seven groups, four groups. > From the beginning, jiivitanavaka kalapa ruupa uppaadakkha.na > sama"ngii. > All of the upapajjanta, puthujjana four, lower phala.t.thaana > puggala three. > > Pa~ncavokaara pavatti, leaving aside four aruupavipaaka, citta > without ta.nhaa 72, leaving aside lobha, di.t.thi, maana cetasika > ekuunapa~n~naasa, cittaja-ruupa uppaadakkha.na sama"ngii, > puthujjana four, ariyaan eight. …] > > #100748 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:32 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (37-39) and commentary. Part 2. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 39. Walshe DN 33.1.11(39) 'Four purifications of offerings (dakkhi.naa- visuddhiyo): there is the offering purified (a) by the giver but not by the recipient, (b) by the recipient but not by the giver, (c) by neither, [iii 232] (d) by both. (Catasso dakkhi.naavisuddhiyo. Atthaavuso, dakkhi.naa daayakato visujjhati no pa.tiggaahakato. Atthaavuso, dakkhi.naa pa.tiggaahakato visujjhati no daayakato. Atthaavuso, dakkhi.naa neva daayakato visujjhati no pa.tiggaahakato. Atthaavuso, dakkhi.naa daayakato ceva visujjhati pa.tiggaahakato ca.) ------------ N: The co. states that offering reckoned as daana, when it becomes pure, brings great fruit. The subco explains that the offering reckoned as daana does not mean the things which are given, deyyadhamma. N: It is the act of daana, generosity, that may be purified. As to the offering that is purified by the giver but not by the recipient, this is when the giver has good morality and the receiver is bad in morality. The Co gives as an example the great King Vessantara (the Bodhisatta in his second to last life) who had purity of siila. He gave away his state elephant, his wife and children, with the intention to become a sammaasambuddha, but the receivers were of bad siila. As to the second case, where the offering is purified by the recipient but not by the giver, the giver has bad morals, such as the executioner of robbers, and the receiver has good morals. As to the third case, where the offering is purified neither by the giver nor by the receiver, this is when both have bad morals. Also what is given originates from what is wrong, adhamma. As to the fourth case, where the offering is purified by both the giver and the receiver, this is when both are of good siila. This is the opposite of the third case. ----------- N: This text shows the value of good siila. When the giving is pure kusala, someone is not concerned about his own gain or advantage. Also the receiving of a gift can be with kusala citta, without conceit or a thought of 'I am the receiver'. Giving and receiving is an occasion of daana, of kusala, both for the giver and the receiver. What is emphasized here is good siila and bad siila. Not the outward situation determines whether the offering is purified, it is the citta which is with good siila or bad siila. In the ultimate sense there is no giver or receiver. Pali Co: Daayakato visujjhati, no pa.tiggaahakatoti yattha daayako siilavaa hoti, dhammenuppanna.m deyyadhamma.m deti, pa.tiggaahako dussiilo.... ******** Nina. #100749 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:38 am Subject: Re: Element of space 7 of Y. Karunadasa ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply (#100658) One question regarding the following: > S: A nimitta of a concept, such as in the development of samatha or even now as we speak, is not a direct understanding of the paramattha dhamma. For example, an idea of hardness (which may be theoretically correct or incorrect) is not the same as the direct understanding of hardness. The nimitta of the paramattha dhamma does not appear in the mind-door. pt: Could you please say a little more about the last sentence, everything before it is clear, but I don't understand the last one - how is it that nimitta of the paramattha dhamma does not appear in the mind-door? Thanks. Best wishes pt #100750 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Element of space 7 of Y. Karunadasa sarahprocter... Hi pt, --- On Sun, 20/9/09, ptaus1 wrote: >Thanks for your reply (#100658) One question regarding the following: > S: A nimitta of a concept, such as in the development of samatha or even now as we speak, is not a direct understanding of the paramattha dhamma. For example, an idea of hardness (which may be theoretically correct or incorrect) is not the same as the direct understanding of hardness. The nimitta of the paramattha dhamma does not appear in the mind-door. >pt: Could you please say a little more about the last sentence, everything before it is clear, but I don't understand the last one - how is it that nimitta of the paramattha dhamma does not appear in the mind-door? Thanks. .... S: What I wrote may have been confusing - I might have added 'in that case' at the end of the sentence. Simply, when we think about a concept, it is not the paramattha dhamma, such as hardness (or the nimitta of the paramattha dhamma to be precise)that is experienced. The paramattha dhamma only appears in the mind-door process immediately after it's experienced through the sense-door. Hope that clarifies. Let me know if not! Metta Sarah ========= #100751 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali chewsadhu Dear Nina, (Ka) and (Kha) denote sequence in Paal.i. Just like '1' and '2' or 'a' and 'b' in English. e.g. (Ka) dukkha.m dukkhasacca.m? (Kha) dukkhasacca.m dukkha.m? or (a) dukkha.m dukkhasacca.m? (b) dukkhasacca.m dukkha.m? or (1) dukkha.m dukkhasacca.m? (2) dukkhasacca.m dukkha.m? Translation: (a) [It is] suffering. [Is it] suffering-truth? (b) [It is] suffering-truth. [Is it] suffering? ===== Anuloma = Regular order style Pa.tiloma = Reverse order style e.g. '(Ka) dukkha.m dukkhasacca.m?' is in the regular order style (Anuloma). '(Kha) dukkhasacca.m dukkha.m?' is in the reverse order style (Pa.tiloma). ===== Just to take note, Anuloma has two meaning: 1. Positive statement, 2. Regular order style. For types of statement, there are two: 1. Positive (Anuloma), 2. Negative (Paccaniika). e.g. for Positive statement: (Ka) dukkha.m dukkhasacca.m? (Kha) dukkhasacca.m dukkha.m? Translation: (a) [It is] suffering. [Is it] suffering-truth? (b) [It is] suffering-truth. [Is it] suffering? e.g. for Negative statement: (Ka) na dukkha.m na dukkhasacca.m? (Kha) na dukkhasacca.m na dukkha.m? Translation: (a) [It is] not suffering. [Is it] not suffering-truth? (b) [It is] not suffering-truth. [Is it] not suffering? ===== Regarding the 4 kinds of Kammaja kalapa that arise at the birth moment, actually we can refer to {CMA, pp.255, section.23-29}. For Vital Nonad, i.e. 1. Earth-element, 2. Water-element, 3. Fire-element, 4. Air-element, 5. Form, 6. Smell, 7. Taste, 8, Nutriment, 9. Life-faculty. The 1-8 types of matter are called Pure Octad. Plus one more matter, which is Life-faculty, this group of matters is called Vital Nonad. {CMA, pp.263, table of Groupings}. ===== Studying of Yamaka is just like a test for those who have finished the studying of Manual of Abhidhamma (Abhidhammattha Sangaha). It is also a revision to what we have learnt. Increase our Dhamma knowledge. And increase our faith to the Dhamma. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew p.s. CMA = A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Bhikkhu Bodhi version. #100752 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma: weakening the hindrances. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 18-sep-2009, om 14:45 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: Through insight the impermanence of realities is penetrated. I > like the comparison with the ploughshare which cuts off the roots. > Only pa~n~naa developed in vipassanaa can do this. > ================================= > H: Please look back at my "spiral" posts. Path factors are mutually > supportive. Wisdom doesn't develop without conditions, and not with > study as > sole condition. -------- N: Path factors are mutually supportive, yes true, but they develop while they arise together. I remember our discussions about the spiral. I wrote before: You wrote: Wisdom doesn't develop without conditions, and not with study as sole condition. N: Agreed. But this study is not book study, it is 'study with awareness and right understanding'. The perfections are a necessary condition, all kinds of kusala through body, speech and mind. However, these have to be developed together with satipa.t.thaana so that it is understood that kusala is not self. We may perform many kinds of kusala, such as jhaana, but when these are performed without satipa.t.thaana, they do not lead out of the cycle. They are not the siila and samaadhi of the eightfold Path. Vis. XVII, 63: Text Vis.: he embarks upon the formation of merit of the kinds already stated, which is the condition for that very [suffering in change], like a moth that falls into a lamp's flame, and like the man who wants the drop of honey and licks the honey-smeared knife-edge. -------- N: The fruit of merit is taken for agreeable and pleasant, but in order to show its danger it is compared to the falling into a lamp's flame and the licking of honey from the knife's edge. ---------- Without listening, considering and being aware of naama and ruupa, we are lost. From the beginning there must be a degree of understanding that it is not self who performs siila, develops calm, develops understanding. Otherwise whatever kusala we develop is all in vain. ------ Nina. #100753 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:06 am Subject: Knowing realities as naama and as ruupa. no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Kh Sujin: We may be only thinking that there are only naama and ruupa. It is most important to know when there is awareness. One should understand when there is sati and when there is no sati. Is there any difference? Nina: There are so many moments that we are only thinking and considering. Kh S: There is not enough understanding, not enough detachment. Hardness appears now, it is experienced by body-consciousness. We think of some 'thing' instead of being aware of that characteristic. We think: 'I am touching this or that thing.' Awareness may arise instead of thinking, it follows upon the citta that experiences hardness. One realizes that the moment of awareness is very brief, it arises naturally and it is different from other moments when there is no awareness. That is right mindfulness, sammaa- sati. N: You do not expect its arising. Kh S: When the characteristics of realities are understood more and more we will be less attached to those realities. Because of the understanding of their characteristics, we will be less inclined to take them for self. Is there understanding of visible object that appears now? Instead of a very short moment of understanding of it as just a reality one may only think of people in this room. We can become faniliar with characteristics of realities instead of thinking of a person or a thing. N: People become discouraged about their lack of awareness of realities. Kh S: One can have a little more understanding of dhammas each time of listening. That is enough. One should not wish for more than that. In that way understanding can develop so that eventually it can penetrate the true nature of realities. ****** Nina. #100754 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali nilovg Dear Chew, Op 20-sep-2009, om 11:32 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > Studying of Yamaka is just like a test for those who have finished > the studying of Manual of Abhidhamma (Abhidhammattha Sangaha). It > is also a revision to what we have learnt. Increase our Dhamma > knowledge. And increase our faith to the Dhamma. ------- N:thank you for the explanations. We have to get used to the terminology. To have more confidence in the Dhamma, it is helpful if you, Han, and all of us think of the relation of this Yamaka study to daily life. it is good if we can do this for each section. It is not a valley of dry bones. For example, we read all the time about dukkha, but by these questions and answers we are reminded that the truth of dukkha is actually the impermanence of each reality appearing now. This became clearer in the passage of the Guide Sarah typed out. If we get lost in the difficulty of the text we may forget the life lesson. As Sarah wrote: Nina. #100755 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali chewsadhu Dear Nina, All the teaching of the Buddha relate to daily life and also practical. Just like a doctor, before a doctor can do an operation for a patient, this doctor must go to school to study. Study hard is one of the key factors to understand it well. If we get lost in the difficulty of the text, we must contemplate at that moment. What is the dhamma that arising at that moment? Furthermore, does one need to be able to understand all the meaning in the text all the time? Studying the text is also part of life. Practising and applying what we have learnt from the text is also part of life. Understanding the text is also part of life. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100756 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Element of space 7 of Y. Karunadasa ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks, it's clear now. I'll start a new thread on nimitta as I have more questions. Best wishes pt > Simply, when we think about a concept, it is not the paramattha dhamma, such as hardness (or the nimitta of the paramattha dhamma to be precise)that is experienced. The paramattha dhamma only appears in the mind-door process immediately after it's experienced through the sense-door. #100757 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:52 am Subject: More questions about nimitta ptaus1 Dear Nina, Sarah, all, I've been reading through the useful posts on nimitta - there's one topic that's often mentioned, but I can't really understand it: Sarah (#65848): Just to add to this, at each moment now, sanna makes a sign of the 5 khandhas. This is why each khandha has its nimitta, because the khandhas arise and fall away so fast that without highly developed panna, it has to be the 'sign' that is marked, just like in the example given in the texts of the swirling fire-stick. Nina (#82692): Or it seems that there is one moment that hardness appears. In reality this is not so, there are many moments of hardness arising and falling away. We do not know which one is the present one. There is ruupa-nimitta, vedanaa-nimitta, sa~n~naa-nimitta, sa.nkhaara-nimitta and vi~n~naa.na-nimitta. Only nibbaana is without nimitta, it is animitta.> Nina (#82704): We cling to what appears for a very short moment, but is does not remain. It is the same with saññå, there is not one moment of saññå that marks and remembers, but countless moments, arising and falling away. Thus, we can speak of the nimitta of each of the five khandhas: of rúpa, of feeling, of saññå, of sankhårakkhandha, of consciousness. There are nimittas of all conditioned dhammas that appear at this moment, arising and falling away extremely rapidly. pt: Please correct me if I'm wrong - the above (and especially the last sentence) seems to imply that: 1. If there were for example 33 dhammas present at the moment, then there would also be 33 (sankhara)nimittas in the subsequent mind-door process? 2. Or is that there would be only 5 nimittas at the same time (even though there were 33 dhammas) - one for each khanda? 3. Either way, what determines which particular nimitta out of those 33 (or 5) is the actual object of cittas of the subsequent mind-door process? Best wishes pt #100758 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Howard (100694) > But it [the temporary suppression of the (manifesting) hindrances] does nothing towards the weakening or eradication of the > accumulated latent tendency for that hindrance. > ---------------------------------------- > Not so. It does do that indirectly, because the weakening of > hindrances manifesting gets them out of the way for the time being, and that is > good, Jon, because - notice - they are called *hindrances*! ;-) When hindrances > are weakened, it is easier for useful states to arise. > =============== But you would agree, I think, that the temporary suppression of the hindrances does not per se weaken the accumulated latent tendencies. To my understanding, only the panna associated with awareness/insight development performs that function. The connection you seek to establish above is that temporary suppression of the hindrances means they arise less subsequently and thus there is more scope for awareness/insight to occur. The problem with this reasoning is that the texts do not state that the conditions for the arising of awareness/insight include prior weakening or absence of the 5 hindrances. The hindrances are not in fact hindrances to the arising of awareness/insight (occurring at an immediately subsequent moment). =============== > That latent tendency will continue to be carried forward from moment to > moment, life to life, regardless of any attainment of mundane jhana. > ----------------------------------------------- > Wisdom and disenchantment and disengagement can develop more easily > when hindrances are weakened. =============== Yes, I'm familiar with this widely held view. However, this is an inference or deduction based, I believe, on the references in the suttas to the hindrances as being factors that 'weaken' understanding. But when the texts speak of the factors for developing enlightenment, they do not mention the suppression (or weakening) of the hindrances. Jon #100759 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Scott (and Howard) (100695) > J: "The temporary suppression of the (manifesting) hindrances that is associated with mundane jhana may weaken the tendency for a hindrance to arise (manifest), and hence to accumulate, further in the same lifetime." > > Scott: Can you show some textual backing for this? As I understand it, the presence of the jhaana factors inhibits the arising of the hindrances. This amounts to saying that hindrances don't arise while jhaana factors supplant them, and hence the accumulatory weight is reduced. =============== Yes, I'd agree with this. =============== Where does it say that mundane jhaana 'weakens' hindrances? In what sense do you mean 'weakens?' Or, what to the texts suggests about the dynamics of this 'weakening?' =============== I was not so much asserting that as a proposition, but indicating that I was prepared to assume so for the purpose of the discussion with Howard (notice the "may" in my sentence). Of course, I wouldn't have been so loose had I been writing to you ;-)) Jon #100760 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Howard (and Scott) (100721) > For me, non-occurrence or > lessened occurrence of harmful conditions is occurrence of useful conditions. > Non-arising of hatred is an arising of non-hatred, etc. > =============== If I understand you correctly (here and in earlier posts in this thread), you say that: - the non-arising of akusala is the arising of akusala; - the arising of kusala (or the non-arising of the hindrances) weakens the hindrances in the sense of lessens their subsequent arising in this lifetime; - the weakening of the hindrances allows for the easier arising of panna of satipatthana/insight; and for this reason, the development of jhana and the associated suppression of the hindrances is favourable for the development of insight. However, even assuming the correctness of the 3 assumptions above, this does not call for the development of jhana, since *any* level of kusala (including dana and sila) constitutes the non-arising of the hindrances. The suppression of the hindrances effected by jhana is only a temporary non-arising, no different in quality than the non-arising that occurs for you and me in daily life when moments of kusala arise, since in neither case is the accumulated latent tendency reduced. Nowhere in the texts is it said that awareness/insight arises more easily or more frequently for the person who has developed jhana (in particular). Jon #100761 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi. Jon - In a message dated 9/20/2009 8:02:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (100694) > But it [the temporary suppression of the (manifesting) hindrances] does nothing towards the weakening or eradication of the > accumulated latent tendency for that hindrance. > ---------------------------------------- > Not so. It does do that indirectly, because the weakening of > hindrances manifesting gets them out of the way for the time being, and that is > good, Jon, because - notice - they are called *hindrances*! ;-) When hindrances > are weakened, it is easier for useful states to arise. > =============== But you would agree, I think, that the temporary suppression of the hindrances does not per se weaken the accumulated latent tendencies. --------------------------------------------- If by "per se" you mean "on its own" and/or "directly," yes, I would agree. ------------------------------------------------ To my understanding, only the panna associated with awareness/insight development performs that function. ----------------------------------------------- More than one condition is needed, though wisdom is primary. Suppression of hindrances is a supportive condition for the arising of wisdom. Things are not simple. ------------------------------------------------ The connection you seek to establish above is that temporary suppression of the hindrances means they arise less subsequently and thus there is more scope for awareness/insight to occur. -------------------------------------------------- There are chains and cycles of conditionality. Suppression of hindrances enters into these in important ways, and indirectly suppression leads to further suppression. --------------------------------------------------- The problem with this reasoning is that the texts do not state that the conditions for the arising of awareness/insight include prior weakening or absence of the 5 hindrances. The hindrances are not in fact hindrances to the arising of awareness/insight (occurring at an immediately subsequent moment). ---------------------------------------------------- I'm glad that you added, albeit parenthetically, "occurring at an immediately subsequent moment." I agree with that. --------------------------------------------------------------- =============== > That latent tendency will continue to be carried forward from moment to > moment, life to life, regardless of any attainment of mundane jhana. > ----------------------------------------------- > Wisdom and disenchantment and disengagement can develop more easily > when hindrances are weakened. =============== Yes, I'm familiar with this widely held view. However, this is an inference or deduction based, I believe, on the references in the suttas to the hindrances as being factors that 'weaken' understanding. But when the texts speak of the factors for developing enlightenment, they do not mention the suppression (or weakening) of the hindrances. ---------------------------------------------------------- You might consider the relationship between the hindrances and insight mentioned in the following, Jon: _________________________ There are five impediments and hindrances, overgrowths of the mind that stultify insight. What five? Sensual desire is an impediment and hindrance, an overgrowth of the mind that stultifies insight. Ill-will... Sloth and torpor... Restlessness and remorse... Sceptical doubt are impediments and hindrances, overgrowths of the mind that stultify insight. Without having overcome these five, it is impossible for a monk whose insight thus lacks strength and power, to know his own true good, the good of others, and the good of both; nor will he be capable of realizing that superhuman state of distinctive achievement, the knowledge and vision enabling the attainment of sanctity. But if a monk has overcome these five impediments and hindrances, these overgrowths of the mind that stultify insight, then it is possible that, with his strong insight, he can know his own true good, the good of others, and the good of both; and he will be capable of realizing that superhuman state of distinctive achievement, the knowledge and vision enabling the attainment of sanctity. â€" AN 5:51 ----------------------------------------- Jon ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100762 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thanks for: J: "...I was not so much asserting that as a proposition, but indicating that I was prepared to assume so for the purpose of the discussion with Howard (notice the 'may' in my sentence). Of course, I wouldn't have been so loose had I been writing to you ;-))" Scott: Ha. That's because I'm a 'loose cannon' right? ;-) Actually, your writing is very precise, rendered more so by your impeccable diplomacy. I see we agree, which may or may not be a good thing. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #100763 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:42 pm Subject: Re: More questions about nimitta gazita2002 Hallo pt., > Dear Nina, Sarah, all, > > I've been reading through the useful posts on nimitta - there's one topic that's often mentioned, but I can't really understand it: > > Sarah (#65848): > Just to add to this, at each moment now, sanna makes a sign of the 5 > khandhas. This is why each khandha has its nimitta, because the khandhas > arise and fall away so fast that without highly developed panna, it has to > be the 'sign' that is marked, just like in the example given in the texts > of the swirling fire-stick. > > Nina (#82692): > Or it seems that there is one moment that hardness appears. In reality > this is not so, there are many moments of hardness arising and > falling away. We do not know which one is the present one. There is > ruupa-nimitta, vedanaa-nimitta, sa~n~naa-nimitta, sa.nkhaara-nimitta > and vi~n~naa.na-nimitta. Only nibbaana is without nimitta, it is > animitta.> > > Nina (#82704): > We cling to what appears for a very short moment, but is does not > remain. It is the same with saññå, there is not one moment of saññå > that marks and remembers, but countless moments, arising and falling > away. > Thus, we can speak of the nimitta of each of the five khandhas: of > rúpa, of feeling, of saññå, of sankhårakkhandha, of consciousness. > There are nimittas of all conditioned dhammas that appear at this > moment, arising and falling away extremely rapidly. > > pt: > Please correct me if I'm wrong - the above (and especially the last sentence) seems to imply that: > > 1. If there were for example 33 dhammas present at the moment, then there would also be 33 (sankhara)nimittas in the subsequent mind-door process? azita: there may be 33 or whatever no. of dhammas in any given moment, however, as I understand, only one can be the object of citta. therefore, only one nimitta at a time. In my muddled world, its hard to even imagine only one object at a time, but then realities arise and fall very, very, very fast, so it takes a great deal of wisdom to actually 'see' these realities. > 2. Or is that there would be only 5 nimittas at the same time (even though there were 33 dhammas) - one for each khanda? > > 3. Either way, what determines which particular nimitta out of those 33 (or 5) is the actual object of cittas of the subsequent mind-door process? azita: conditions determine which one. Mayb someone else can elaborate on that, bec. I have no idea what the condition might be. Kamma could be one condition. Accumulations for kusala/akusala could be another condition. Now I'm guessing :-) patience, courage and good cheer, azita #100764 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 20-sep-2009, om 14:25 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > There are five impediments and hindrances, overgrowths of the mind > that > stultify insight. What five? > Sensual desire is an impediment and hindrance, an overgrowth of the > mind > that stultifies insight.... (A. V, 5) ------- N: Commentary to this sutta: In this sutta there is no mention of jhaana as a means to weaken the hindrances. This sutta, the co states at the end, is about vatta and vivatta, being in the cycle and being freed of the cycle. At the moment of a hindrance such as desire, there is no pa~n~naa at the same time. For example, when there is desire for many moments of sati. That hinders insight. But pa~n~naa can realize desire as a conditioned naama, and then that hindrance is weakened. Magga- pa~n~naa eradicates the hindrances in accordance with the stage of enlightenment that is reached. ------ Nina. #100765 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/20/2009 9:44:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 20-sep-2009, om 14:25 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > There are five impediments and hindrances, overgrowths of the mind > that > stultify insight. What five? > Sensual desire is an impediment and hindrance, an overgrowth of the > mind > that stultifies insight.... (A. V, 5) ------- N: Commentary to this sutta: In this sutta there is no mention of jhaana as a means to weaken the hindrances. This sutta, the co states at the end, is about vatta and vivatta, being in the cycle and being freed of the cycle. At the moment of a hindrance such as desire, there is no pa~n~naa at the same time. For example, when there is desire for many moments of sati. That hinders insight. But pa~n~naa can realize desire as a conditioned naama, and then that hindrance is weakened. Magga- pa~n~naa eradicates the hindrances in accordance with the stage of enlightenment that is reached. ------ Nina. =============================== The issue was that of whether the hindrances hinder wisdom, and what the Buddha taught in the sutta I quoted makes that point. As regards the suppression of the hindrances, that occurs upon entry to jhana, and jhana not only conditions a weakening of the tendency to hindrances manifesting but also is a condition for uprooting defilements. In that regard, please see the following from AN 9.36: "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite â€" the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' "Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite â€" the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then â€" through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters â€" he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. (Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhana.) With metta, Howard Hindrances /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains â€" going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it â€" and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #100766 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 20-sep-2009, om 16:57 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: AN 9, 36. > enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of > seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards > whatever > phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, > fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, > a cancer, an > arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, > not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having > done so, inclines > his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is > exquisite ---------- N: Canker destruction depends on the first jhaana: commentary: arahatship. He sees the five khandhas, according to the co. by insight which is strong. He realizes nibbaana. He develops jhaana and insight, he has accumulations to do so. It is not a command, not for everybody. Not the jhaana uproots defilements, but insight, developed up to arahatship. Nina. #100767 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right understanding of dana. /was . . . kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ---------------- <. . .> KH: > >To identify any particular kamma-patha would be to directly know various things that occurred over various moments. (Was the gift a suitable one? was it willingly offered? was it accepted? . . .) (Was the sentient being who was killed actually present? was there an intention to kill that particular being? did he die as a result? . . ) > > S: > Yes, without anything close to omniscient wisdom, this is all thinking for us. ------------------ I think I know what you mean. But then, you could have written, "Yes, *even with* omniscient wisdom this would be all thinking," and I would still have said I think I know what you mean. :-) ----------- <. . .> S: the point that's made in the S. Sutta and commentary. All that appears through the body-sense are the various tangible elements. The rest is thinking, even though it's usually the conventional truth. Like now, you know you're in Australia, but it's just thinking about a concept, even if the rest of the world agrees with you:-). ------------ I think you are saying that [with omniscient wisdom] there would be way of knowing I was in Australia that would not be just thinking. I'll have to think about that. :-) Ken H > >PPS: Sorry about all the untidy broken lines in my recent posts. They > don't appear that way in the Edit and Preview pages. > .... > S: I hadn't noticed, even on print-outs.... > It's still happening on my computer. Although not all the time. If I don't painstakingly resize the lines from previous posts they end up all over the place. #100768 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:31 pm Subject: Reviewing Own Generosity! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Contemplating the Extent of own Generosity: One naturally devoted to generosity by the constant practice of giving and sharing makes the decision: From now on, whenever there is anyone present to receive, I shall not eat even a single mouthful without having given a gift! And that very day he should give a gift by sharing whatever according to his means and his ability with those, who have distinguished mental qualities. When he has apprehended the sign in that, he should go into solitary retreat and recollect his own generosity in its special qualities of being free from the stain of mean miserliness like this: It is gain for me, it is great gain for me, that in a culture obsessed by the greedy stain of niggardliness, I abide with my mind & heart free from penny-pinching stinginess. I delight indeed in relinquishing by being freely generous & open-handed, always welcoming any request by rejoicing in all altruistic giving and sharing (AN III 287). Any who gives life by giving food will get life & strength either divine or as a human (AN III 42). Any giver is loved & frequented by many (AN III 40). One who gives, is ever loved, according to the wise man's law! (AN III 41). When a Bhikkhu is devoted to this recollection of generosity, he becomes ever more intent on generosity, his favourite becomes non-greedy charity, he acts with kind, noble, & loving liberality, and he gains a fine lion-heart. He enjoys much happiness and gladness. And if he penetrates no higher, he is at least headed for a happy destiny. The Gods became Gods as a result of their magnanimous Giving! Now when a man is truly wise, His constant task will surely be This recollection of his prior giving Blessed with such mighty potency! Vism I 224 <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #100769 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:34 am Subject: Re: More questions about nimitta ptaus1 Dear Azita, Thanks for replying. > azita: there may be 33 or whatever no. of dhammas in any given moment, however, as I understand, only one can be the object of citta. > therefore, only one nimitta at a time. pt: That was my understanding as well. I'm not sure then why Nina and Sarah are saying that there are multiple nimittas at the same time (and sanna marking all of them at the same time?) - though, of course, I might be completely missing what they are trying to say there. Best wishes pt #100770 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- On Fri, 18/9/09, kenhowardau wrote: >A person with right understanding of nama and rupa will know how to act properly in any situation. .... S: That's one of those great sign-offs of yours....look f/w to more:-) Metta Sarah ======== #100771 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. nilovg Hi Howard and all, I studied more the sutta you gave us, and the Co: AN 9.36. Op 20-sep-2009, om 16:57 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental > fermentations. > Or, if not, then - through this very dhamma-passion, this very > dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five > of the fetters - he is > due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, > never > again to return from that world. > "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > first > jhana.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. > (Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhana.) ------- N: Thus, this sutta concerns the bhikkhu who develops both samatha and vipassanaa. The Co is very interesting. The Co. states that he is established in vipassanaa and penetrates the three general characteristics of realities. The co. elaborates on the sutta words: destroying craving. Chandaraaga, desire, for dhamma, that is, samatha and vipassanaa. If the bhikkhu overcomes this he becomes an arahat. The sutta: if not, he attains the state of anaagaamii. N: He becomes an anaagaami because he has not developed vipassanaa to the extent that all clinging can be eradicated. This shows how deeply rooted clinging is, even clinging to samatha and vipassanaa that even arises for an ariyan. What a long way to go. For us: when we long for more wisdom, or we long for weakening the hindrances, for jhaana, it is all conditioned, anattaa. Whatever arises is anattaa. It has to be understood as such. The end of the co is of interest to you. The ruupajhaanas and aruupajhaanas are mentioned, but not the highest stage of aruupajhaana: the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. I remember that you discussed this before. The co gives the reason: because it is subtle, sukhuma. Not fit for contemplation. The sutta touches on this: Perception is so subtle it is hardly there. The sutta at the end: they can become skilled in the attainment of and emerging from the fifth jhaana and the stopping of perception and feeling. ****** Nina. #100772 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Always enjoyable chatting to you... even to analyse any glibness:-)) --- On Tue, 15/9/09, scottduncan2 wrote: >>Sarah: "And also not to be glib, but what does it mean to 'just be in this moment, fully aware'? I ask because this is exactly what the theme was of a good yoga class I went to the other day. While it's a helpful general reminder, without any understanding of namas and rupas, it won't lead to any less detachment from the idea of Atta, will it?" >Scott: Again, I won't try to convince anyone about the Abhidhamma. I think it *is* glib to just repeat catch-phrases. I don't think any catch-phrase, no matter how it is worded, will be anything more than a general reminder - if it even rises to that level. Whether one states the above or something like, 'everything is satipa.t.thaana, ' ;-) these will remain general at best. >I can go on to suggest that I was meaning to imply a couple of things. One was momentariness, and the other was about the 'being' that is of the moment. And these implications refer to naamaa and ruupaa. And to impermance, which supports anatta and the overall unsatisfactoriness of things. ..... Sarah: Yes, I think it all depends on the speaker what the understanding is.. For example, we can give each other a 'present moment' reminder and know the other is referring to namas and rupas and anatta. If someone new were to write a one-liner 'present moment' reminder, we'd need to ask many questions to determine what was meant or understood. It's the same with the suttas, isn't it? We all read and quote them with whatever degree of understanding has been (or not been) accumulated. ..... <...> >A study of the underpinnings of the Buddha's world view is necessary to go beyond the superficial world of feel good/sound good catch-phrases directed at some sort of generally lower level of understanding and catering to the tastes of the majority. And this is what Abhidhamma provides, as far as I am concerned. .... Sarah: Yes, nicely put. ..... >An intellectual consideration of Abhidhamma is certainly not dangerous (as some suggest) and it can lead to detachment. To use another catch-phrase however, this would only be by conditions since, as is clear, for some Abhidhamma just becomes an object of contempt. ..... Sarah: (From an old post I wrote, #31840): >Usually when people mentioned that the Buddha encouraged 'doubt', they are referring to the Kesamutti (Kalama) sutta where we often read 'it is right to doubt' or something similar. In fact the meaning as I understand is more along the lines of 'it is natural to doubt'. In other words, doubt(here kankha and viccikicca) is always akusala (unwholesome). I think Woodward’s (PTS) translation expresses the meaning best: " 'When we listen to them, sir, we have doubt and wavering as to which of these worthies is speaking truth and which speaks falsehood'. 'Yes, Kalamas, you may well doubt, you may well waver. In a doubtful matter, wavering does arise.' " .... >Scott: Sorry for more glibness... ..... Sarah: Not at all.... Metta Sarah ======= #100773 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:53 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 6, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Question: When I am seeing I am absorbed in what I see, but I don't think of a self which sees. When I am hearing I am absorbed in what I hear, in words which are spoken, but I do not have an idea that a self is hearing. I don't understand why an idea of self must be eradicated while one is seeing or hearing. Answer: We cannot say that there is an idea of self every time seeing or hearing arises. However, the idea of self is deeply accumulated. When it does not appear there is still the latent tendency of wrong view. This is like a virus which is latent in the body but which can become active at any time. Wrong view can condition many other defilements. It can only be eradicated when enlightenment has been attained. Wrong view must be eradicated first before attachment to sense objects can be eradicated. It is important to develop understanding of realities such as seeing or hearing, because all realities in our daily lives should be known as impermanent and not self. We will learn that what we take for "my mind" are only different moments of consciousness and mental factors, mental realities, and what we take for "my body" are only physical realities. As understanding develops we shall learn that after seeing or hearing defilements arise most of the time. We like to see and we like visible object. We like to hear and we like sound. We are attached to all sense objects. Such moments often pass unnoticed, but through the development of right understanding we acquire a more refined knowledge of our different moments of consciousness. Question: I find it difficult to separate seeing from thinking about what we see. Seeing and thinking of people and things seem to occur together and thus it seems that we see people and things like a car or a house. Answer: It is important to have right understanding about seeing: it sees only what appears through the eyes, nothing else. When you pay attention to shape and form and when you perceive people and things there is remembrance of concepts, there is thinking, not seeing. Seeing conditions thinking of concepts. If we would not see, we could not think of concepts. We should know when we are living in the world of concepts and when in the world of realities. There will be less delusion if we learn to distinguish seeing from thinking. Question: Would it not be better not to think, in order to know realities? Answer: No. We should understand thinking as thinking, seeing as seeing, feeling as feeling; they are different realities. The experience of heat is different from knowing where the heat appears. ****** Nina. #100774 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta nilovg Dear pt, Op 20-sep-2009, om 13:52 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > N: Thus, we can speak of the nimitta of each of the five khandhas: of > rúpa, of feeling, of saññå, of sankhårakkhandha, of consciousness. > There are nimittas of all conditioned dhammas that appear at this > moment, arising and falling away extremely rapidly. > > pt: > Please correct me if I'm wrong - the above (and especially the last > sentence) seems to imply that: > > 1. If there were for example 33 dhammas present at the moment, then > there would also be 33 (sankhara)nimittas in the subsequent mind- > door process? > > 2. Or is that there would be only 5 nimittas at the same time (even > though there were 33 dhammas) - one for each khanda? > > 3. Either way, what determines which particular nimitta out of > those 33 (or 5) is the actual object of cittas of the subsequent > mind-door process? -------- N: Originally you understood correctly that there is only one nimitta of a reality appearing at a time. I asked Kh Sujin whether we can be aware of a nimitta and she said: yes, a nimitta of a reality. We do not have to think of nimitta at all. It is good to know that realities arise and fall away so rapidly and that we are inclined to join them as a whole. ------ Nina. #100775 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:14 am Subject: Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . jonoabb Hi KenH (100726) > Yes, no argument on the "should be done" aspect. The part I am having > trouble with is that "all parents are wonderful." > =============== I don't think it's suggested that parents are full of kusala or anything like that. As I understand it (but not having read the relevant texts lately), the debt is owed simply because of their role in our coming into the world and subsequent upbringing. Birth as a human being requires the participation of 2 parents. =============== > Let me put it this way: Person A stares at a candle and thinks, "I am > practising visible-object-mindfulness in accordance with the Dhamma." > Person B sees his father and thinks, "There, according to the Dhamma, is > a wonderful person to whom I am deeply indebted." My question is, is A > wrong and B right? Is A imposing a conventional run-of-the-mill meaning > onto the Dhamma and B not? =============== I'd say it's not a question of right or wrong, but of kusala or akusala. In the instances you give, neither would be kusala. =============== > There can be involuntary, resentful, "bringing into the world" can't > there? And also, some parents might voluntarily, without resentment, > bring children into the world but simply in order to enslave, or sell, > them. Are those children indebted to their parents? =============== All bringing into the world involves lots of akusala on the part of the parents. Notwithstanding that, to reflect appropriately on the necessary role that was played by one's parents would be kusala. =============== > I had reached an understanding of 'good friend' 'Buddha' and > 'stream-enterer' (that ultimately they were kusala dhammas accompanied > by panna), but I'm not so sure about 'spouse' or 'parent.' It seems to > me that, ultimately, they could be any kind of dhamma. (?) =============== In ultimate terms, all human beings are the same dhammas (cittas of the 4 jatis (kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya), cetasikas and rupas), except that in the case of the arahant there is no akusala. =============== > Or maybe the present citta could look upon the immediately preceding > citta as the one that 'brought it into the world.' :-) =============== And think how wonderful it is ;-)) =============== > It began when we were talking about "an act of dana." I equated knowing > an act of dana with knowing an act of walking. Both (when it came to > satipatthana) equally unnecessary. =============== Right. Agreed. =============== > What I meant was, quite a lot of Dhamma study involves knowing one > kamma-patha from another. That is, knowing one kusala (or akusala) > cetana-cetasika from another kusala (or akusala) cetana-cetasika. To do > that, we have to know the concepts associated with them. =============== Not sure what you mean when you say that Dhamma study involves knowing one kusala (or akusala) cetana-cetasika from another kusala (or akusala) cetana-cetasika. Would you mind elaborating a little. Thanks. =============== > Another part of Dhamma study is to know which particular kind of rebirth > follows which kamma patha. (e.g., as Sarah has just mentioned, birth in > Avici hell follows from killing a parent.) > > I don't see the significance of it. That's not to say it isn't > significant: just that I don't see it. =============== Is it just "Dhamma trivia", then? ;-)) I don't think so. I would agree it doesn't have direct relevance for you or me to the development of satipatthana at this moment. But for other persons, or under other circumstances, it might. Jon #100776 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/21/2009 4:43:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and all, I studied more the sutta you gave us, and the Co: AN 9.36. Op 20-sep-2009, om 16:57 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental > fermentations. > Or, if not, then â€" through this very dhamma-passion, this very > dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five > of the fetters â€" he is > due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, > never > again to return from that world. > "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > first > jhana.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. > (Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhana.) ------- N: Thus, this sutta concerns the bhikkhu who develops both samatha and vipassanaa. The Co is very interesting. The Co. states that he is established in vipassanaa and penetrates the three general characteristics of realities. The co. elaborates on the sutta words: destroying craving. Chandaraaga, desire, for dhamma, that is, samatha and vipassanaa. If the bhikkhu overcomes this he becomes an arahat. The sutta: if not, he attains the state of anaagaamii. N: He becomes an anaagaami because he has not developed vipassanaa to the extent that all clinging can be eradicated. This shows how deeply rooted clinging is, even clinging to samatha and vipassanaa that even arises for an ariyan. What a long way to go. For us: when we long for more wisdom, or we long for weakening the hindrances, for jhaana, it is all conditioned, anattaa. Whatever arises is anattaa. It has to be understood as such. The end of the co is of interest to you. The ruupajhaanas and aruupajhaanas are mentioned, but not the highest stage of aruupajhaana: the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. I remember that you discussed this before. The co gives the reason: because it is subtle, sukhuma. Not fit for contemplation. The sutta touches on this: Perception is so subtle it is hardly there. The sutta at the end: they can become skilled in the attainment of and emerging from the fifth jhaana and the stopping of perception and feeling. ****** Nina. ======================================= THUS, this sutta concerns the bhikkhu who develops both samatha and vipassanaa? I find this to be an odd conclusion. The sutta teaches how ending the fermentaions depends on jhana. THAT is the point! Why do you deflect that? The full material I gave was as follows: "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite â€" the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' "Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite â€" the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then â€" through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters â€" he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. (Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhana.) Calm and insight are mutually dependent. The point the Buddha makes in this sutta is the critical importance of jhana to uprooting the defilements. The material points out how based in jhana insight and disengagement can arise, and staying with that the full extinguishing of fermentations can be achieved. Based on jhana, wisdom can arise to do the uprooting needed. And the Buddha recapitulates with the main point: <'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.> With metta, Howard Samatha & Vipassana /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) #100777 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 21-sep-2009, om 14:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > THUS, this sutta concerns the bhikkhu who develops both samatha and > vipassanaa? I find this to be an odd conclusion. The sutta teaches > how ending > the fermentaions depends on jhana. THAT is the point! Why do you > deflect > that? ------- N: Pa~n~naa has to penetrate the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. That is by insight, how else? Not merely by entering jhaana. I do not see any problem here. See also the co: he is established in vipassanaa, and someone may have desire for both samatha and vipassanaa. When this desire is not overcome he cannot attain arahatship. He attains the state of the anaagaami. In other posts you also spoke about samatha and vipassanaa in tandem. Where is the problem? ------ Nina. #100778 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta chewsadhu Dear Nina, What is nimitta of a reality? With respect, Chew #100779 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/21/2009 9:34:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 21-sep-2009, om 14:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > THUS, this sutta concerns the bhikkhu who develops both samatha and > vipassanaa? I find this to be an odd conclusion. The sutta teaches > how ending > the fermentaions depends on jhana. THAT is the point! Why do you > deflect > that? ------- N: Pa~n~naa has to penetrate the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. That is by insight, how else? Not merely by entering jhaana. I do not see any problem here. -------------------------------------------- I KNOW that it is wisdom that uproots the defilements. That, however, is not the point of the sutta. The point is the crucial role of jhana. It is crystal clear that this is the point, but you don't seem to want to talk about that. For some reason, you and other admirers of Khun Sujin wish to soft-peddle the crucial importance of jhana no matter how much the Buddha emphasized it. -------------------------------------------- See also the co: he is established in vipassanaa, and someone may have desire for both samatha and vipassanaa. When this desire is not overcome he cannot attain arahatship. He attains the state of the anaagaami. In other posts you also spoke about samatha and vipassanaa in tandem. Where is the problem? ----------------------------------------------- I explained the problem above. The Buddha begins and ends the sutta by saying "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on ... jhana," and that is the theme of this sutta. The theme is not other than this. ------------------------------------------------- ------ Nina. =============================== With metta, Howard Hindrances /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains â€" going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it â€" and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #100780 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 21-sep-2009, om 16:05 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I KNOW that it is wisdom that uproots the defilements. That, however, > is not the point of the sutta. The point is the crucial role of > jhana. It > is crystal clear that this is the point, but you don't seem to want > to talk > about that. For some reason, you and other admirers of Khun Sujin > wish to > soft-peddle the crucial importance of jhana no matter how much the > Buddha > emphasized it. > -------------------------------------------- > > See also the co: he is established in vipassanaa, and someone may > have desire for both samatha and vipassanaa. When this desire is not > overcome he cannot attain arahatship. He attains the state of the > anaagaami. > In other posts you also spoke about samatha and vipassanaa in tandem. > Where is the problem? > ----------------------------------------------- > I explained the problem above. The Buddha begins and ends the sutta by > saying "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends > on ... > jhana," and that is the theme of this sutta. The theme is not other > than > this. --------------- N: Let us look at a paralel sutta: M. 64. This sutta speaks about using the jhaanas as base for vipassanaa. Again he penetrates the three characteristics. Also at the end this sutta speaks about desire for Dhamma, so that he cannot attain arahatship (this is an aside). At the end (B.B.): <"Venerable sir, if this is the path, the way to the abandonment of the five lower fetters, then how is it that some bhikkhus here [are said to] gain deliverance of mind and some [are said to] gain deliverance by wisdom?" "The difference here, Aananda, is in their faculties, I say."> Note: 659, from the commentary: Howard, do you think that the faculties of different people are the same? Without any predominance of this or that faculty? Nina. #100781 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:42 pm Subject: Anattalakkhana Sutta - Venerable Mahaasi Sayaadaw chewsadhu Dear Nina, Sentences from the book as below: "When vipassanaa is very strong, the process does not advance till javana stage. It abruptly ends after two or three thought moments of votthapana and sink back to the bhavanga level. This is in accordance with the meditation instruction given to the Venerable Pothila by the young novice who instructed that the process of cognition with respect to five-door consciousness should not sink to javana stage." What do you think on the above sentences? With respect, Chew p.s. You can get the sentences at the below link: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/mahasi-anat/anat04.htm [CONSCIOUSNESS LIKENED TO A CONJURER'S TRICK] #100782 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta nilovg Dear Chew, Op 21-sep-2009, om 16:00 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > > What is nimitta of a reality? ---------- N: Kh Sujin would answer: just now it appears. Say, sound appears, it is a reality, but only a nimitta of a reality is known. Sound arises and falls away so fast and then there is another sound, but we cannot point to the sound appearing now to sati. It does not matter. No need to think all the time: it is a nimitta. or, the reality has fallen away. There are different characteristics appearing and is this not enough ? This is not the nimitta in the sense of outward appearance of things and details, or just pa~n~nattis or mind-constructs. It is a nimitta of a reality. This is very important. Kh Sujin said: She used the simile of a stick of fire you turn around in a circle and it seems to be a circle of fire. (Ledi Sayadaw mentioned this also). Or it seems that there is one moment that hardness appears. In reality this is not so, there are many moments of hardness arising and falling away. We do not know which one is the present one. There is ruupa-nimitta, vedanaa-nimitta, sa~n~naa-nimitta, sa.nkhaara-nimitta and vi~n~naa.na- nimitta. Only nibbaana is without nimitta, it is animitta. So, we can continue being aware naturally of characteristics of dhammas, but now it is clearer that they fall away so fast. It helps to understand their anattaness. We cannot hold them for a moment. Nina. #100783 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/21/2009 10:28:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Howard, do you think that the faculties of different people are the same? Without any predominance of this or that faculty? =========================== No, I do not. And I also consider wisdom to be the preeminent faculty for awakening. But jhana is also essential, and THAT is the point of this particular sutta. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100784 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:04 pm Subject: Howard As A Lone Voice Of Traditional Theravada Teachings On dsg abhidhammika Hello Howard (Sarah, Jon, Nina, Lukas) How have you been? Your reply to Sarah and Lukas was excellent. Your subsequent replies to Jon were also spot-on. It was amazing to find that Sarah continued to go against Abhidhamma. We cannot blame Sarah and Jon for being out of touch with traditional Theravada teachings. As they are busy lay people who have chosen to have formally and explicitly spoken against the traditional formal practices of Siila, Samatha and Vipassanaa by having allowed themselves to be misled by unscrupulous deviators and wrong associates, they do deserve our compassion. And, you, Howard, out of compassion, pointed out how they made wrong speeches on account of their ignorance and wrong view. The Buddha's teachings on Siila, Samatha and Vipassana in the Suttas do not contradict those very formal practices included in the Abhidhamma. Anyone who speaks against the formal practices of Siila, Samatha and Vipassanaa does not understand Abhidhamma the right way. So, Howard, please keep up the good work selflessly and compassionately. Let me recite: Saadhu, Saadhu, Saadhu for your Theravada Lion Roars! Best wishes. Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: Hi, Sarah (and Lukas) - In a message dated 9/13/2009 12:30:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: Yes, good comments and a nice quote. "We can sit on the deck of the boat and in one moment there can be understanding of realities, without doing anything." So true... =============================== Just a thought: If wishes were gold, we would be Midas! ;-) And two more thoughts (from the Buddha) are appended at the end. With metta, Howard /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains â€" going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it â€" and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) #100785 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta chewsadhu Dear Nina, Thanks for the explanation. Sadhu. With respect, Chew #100786 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 21-sep-2009, om 16:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > And I also consider wisdom to be the preeminent faculty > for awakening. But jhana is also essential, and THAT is the point > of this > particular sutta. ------- N: You read: destruction of the cankers is dependent on the first jhaana, etc, and see it thus: jhaana is essential, perhaps indispensable, for every one who strives after arahatship. I see it differently: in the whole context plus commentary: here someone uses jhaana as base for insight and for him jhaana is helpful, valuable. In that sense the word dependent can be used. I would not say: everyone must cultivate jhaana. There are many other suttas, but let us not repeat the many old discussions. We can find many old posts on jhaana when we do a search. ------- Nina. #100787 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anattalakkhana Sutta - Venerable Mahaasi Sayaadaw nilovg Dear Chew, It is not clear what is taken from the ancient commentary and what is Sayadaw's own idea. I have read this before, but as I understand, a process does not run its full course when the ruupa has arisen more moments before the bhavangupaccheda, and since it does not last longer than seventeen moments, the javanas do not arise. The arising of cittas in a process is niyama, citta niyama, according to a fixed order. I do not think anybody can change this. Nina. Op 21-sep-2009, om 16:42 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > Sentences from the book as below: > > "When vipassanaa is very strong, the process does not advance till > javana stage. It abruptly ends after two or three thought moments > of votthapana and sink back to the bhavanga level. This is in > accordance with the meditation instruction given to the Venerable > Pothila by the young novice who instructed that the process of > cognition with respect to five-door consciousness should not sink > to javana stage." #100788 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/21/2009 1:48:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 21-sep-2009, om 16:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > And I also consider wisdom to be the preeminent faculty > for awakening. But jhana is also essential, and THAT is the point > of this > particular sutta. ------- N: You read: destruction of the cankers is dependent on the first jhaana, etc, and see it thus: jhaana is essential, perhaps indispensable, for every one who strives after arahatship. I see it differently: in the whole context plus commentary: here someone uses jhaana as base for insight and for him jhaana is helpful, valuable. In that sense the word dependent can be used. I would not say: everyone must cultivate jhaana. There are many other suttas, but let us not repeat the many old discussions. We can find many old posts on jhaana when we do a search. ------- Nina ================================ Thank you for your reply, Nina. It seems we strongly disagree on this matter. It seems to me that you also disagree with the clear word of the Buddha on this matter also. With metta, Howard Samatha & Vipassana /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) #100789 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:54 am Subject: Re: Howard As A Lone Voice Of Traditional Theravada Teachings On dsg scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: S: "...And, you, Howard, out of compassion, pointed out how they made wrong speeches on account of their ignorance and wrong view...So, Howard, please keep up the good work selflessly and compassionately..." Scott: Is this seriously what you're up to here? Wow... ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #100790 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:18 am Subject: Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . kenhowardau Hi Jon, ----------- <. . .> J: > to reflect appropriately on the necessary role that was played by one's parents would be kusala. ---------------- That might be a good note of agreement on which to end our discussion on parents. :-) ------------------- <. . .> KH: > >What I meant was, quite a lot of Dhamma study involves knowing one > kamma-patha from another. That is, knowing one kusala (or akusala) > cetana-cetasika from another kusala (or akusala) cetana-cetasika. To do > that, we have to know the concepts associated with them. J: > Not sure what you mean when you say that Dhamma study involves knowing one kusala (or akusala) cetana-cetasika from another kusala (or akusala) cetana-cetasika. Would you mind elaborating a little. Thanks. --------------------- I think it is safe to say that Dhamma study includes study of the twenty kamma-pathas. As to what that involves, I couldn't say with any confidence. In my simplistic view of things a kamma-patha must (if it is a reality) exist in one fleeting moment of nama and rupa. But that simplistic view might not be enough. Sarah has tried to explain to me that kamma-patha involves, not just one, but many moments of volition. But if we take the simplistic view kamma-patha must ultimately be a single citta accompanied by cetasikas. Some kamma-pathas have (I think) the same collection of cetasikas as some other kamma-pathas. And so, in this way, Dhamma study involves knowing one dhamma from another, apparently identical, dhamma. Not sure if it was worth repeating, but you asked for it. :-) -------------------------- KH: > Another part of Dhamma study is to know which particular kind of rebirth > follows which kamma patha. (e.g., as Sarah has just mentioned, birth in > Avici hell follows from killing a parent.) > > I don't see the significance of it. That's not to say it isn't > significant: just that I don't see it. J: > Is it just "Dhamma trivia", then? ;-)) I don't think so. I would agree it doesn't have direct relevance for you or me to the development of satipatthana at this moment. But for other persons, or under other circumstances, it might. ------------------------ I am happy with that explanation. My confusion is temporarily suppressed. Lying dormant until next time the subject comes up. :-) Ken H #100791 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowing realities as naama and as ruupa. no 2. rjkjp1 Dear Colette Thanks for this message, nice to see you interested and learning about nama and rupa. best robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > Very Good post on distinguishing NAAMA and RUPA i.e. the use of DOSA as the spotlight. > > <......> > I like how Kh S used "dosa" as a "naama", an emotion subsistant on a value structure, a heirarchy, then went on to clearly show that these emotional desires are worthless and valueless, ULTIMATELY, and that "they are not me", THE EXACT SUTTA THAT I WAS THINKING OF EACH TIME I WAS CORRESPONDING TO BOTH SCOTT AND LUCAS ON THEIR BLINDNESS. SURELY it hasn't taken KhS and Nina many thousands of lifetimes to know and to understand what it is that I'm talking about and so they agree with me: "Anyone can see" or do they agree with Freddie Mercury, who wrote those lyrics, that I used firstly for the application of NOTHING to Sunyata and the Madhymika but was given such generosity to find that the sentence "NOTHING REALLY MATTERS" is followed by the "bonus points" (see Pin Ball Wizardry) of "Anyone can see". That condition, the condition of seeing what I'm speaking of in this lifetime without having to go thousands of lifetimes paying thousands of dues, the aspirant can gain ENLIGHTENMENT here and now. > > toodles, > colette > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear friends: > > > > Rob K: When sati is aware pf dosa, is it aware of dosa as naama or is > > it aware of dosa as dosa? > > Kh S: In what sense is there awareness of dosa as dosa? Dosa is naama. > > Everyone knows when dosa arises, that it is dosa. But what is its > > characterisitic? What is the true nature of dosa? It is not self, it > > is a reality which is naama, different from other naamas. We should > > become familiar with the characteristic of naama so that we will know > > that it is not my dosa at all. > <....> > #100792 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:18 pm Subject: Remembering the Deities! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Contemplating the Deities and what made them so: One who wants to develop the recollection of deities should possess the special quality of faith evoked by means of the noble path. He should go into solitary retreat and recollect his own special qualities of faith, purity and understanding, with the deities as if standing as witnesses, in this very way: There are deities on the plane of the Four Great Kings, of the Realm of the Thirty-three, Yama World , the Contented Devas, those enjoying own creation, those with power over others creations , those of the Brahma world, and those formless ones far above them... All those deities were possessed of faith so that on dying here they were reborn there, and such faith is present in me too. And those deities were possessed of virtue ... of learning... of generosity ... of understanding, such that when they died here they were reborn there in a divine dimension, and such understanding is also present in me too! (AN III 287). He recollects his own special qualities, making the deities stand as witnesses. When a bhikkhu is devoted to this remembrance of the deities, he becomes dearly loved by those deities. He obtains even greater fullness of faith. He has much happiness and gladness. And if he penetrates no higher, he is at least headed for a happy destiny. Typical appearance and postures of some Devas. Now when a man is truly wise, His constant task will surely be This recollection of the Deities Blessed with such mighty potency! Vism I 226 Sakka king of the 33 devas hovering about with 2 nymphs. <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #100793 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. > N: Originally you understood correctly that there is only one nimitta > of a reality appearing at a time. > I asked Kh Sujin whether we can be aware of a nimitta and she said: > yes, a nimitta of a reality. pt: In terms of the difference between a sankhara nimitta (of a paramattha dhamma) and pannatti nimitta (concept) - in ACM (Bhikkhu Bodhi edition, chpIV, par12, pg163) it says: "The limited or sense-sphere mind-door process is itself twofold: (1) that consequent to a five-door process (pancadvaranubandhaka), and (2) the independent process (visumsiddha). (1) Just as when a gong is struck once by a baton, the gong sends forth a continuous stream of reverberations, so when one of the five sense doors has been impinged upon once by a sense object, after the five-door process has ceased the past sense object comes into range at the mind door and sets off many sequences of mind-door processes. Because these cognitive processes come as the sequel to a five-door process, they are known as consequent processes. They are counted as fivefold by way of the five sense-door processes which they follow. Ledi Sayadaw explains that it is in these consequent processes that distinct recognition of the object occurs; such recognition does not occur in a bare five-door process itself. An eye-door process, for example, is followed first by a conformational mind-door process (tadanuvattika manodvaravithi), which reproduces in the mind door the object just perceived in the sense-door process. Then comes a process grasping the object as a whole (samudayagahika); then a process recognising the colour (vannasallakkhana); then a process grasping the entity (vatthugahika); then a process recognising the entity (vatthusallakkhana); then a process grasping the name (namagahika); then a process recognising the name (namasallakkhana). "The process grasping the object as a whole" is the mind-door process perceiving as a whole the forms repeatedly perceived in individual frames by the two preceding processes, the original sense-door process and the conformational mind-door process. This process exercises a synthesizing function, fusing the perception of distinct "shots" of he object into the perception of a unity, as in he case of a whirling fire-brand perceived as a circle of fire. It is only when this has occurred that recognition of the colour is possible. When the recognition of the colour occurs, one recognises the colour, "I see blue". When the recognition of the entity occurs, one recognises the entity or shape. When the recognition of the name occurs, one recognises the name. Thus, Ledi Sayadaw asserts, it is only when a recognitional process referring to one or another specific feature occurs that one knows, "I see this or that specific feature." pt: So my questions is - in terms of the above sequence of mind-door processes that follow a sense-door process - where does sankhara nimitta stop and pannatti nimitta begins? I mean, the fire-stick example, which I often encountered while going through Useful posts, doesn't seem to refer to the first subsequent mind-door process (nor many sense-door/mind-door sequences), but according to Bhikkhu Bodhi's rendering of Ledi Sayadaw refers to the second mind-door process that follows the original sense-door process. So, would that mean that sankhara nimitta in fact lasts for two mind-door process, following the sense-door process? Or maybe three (thus including the recognition of colour)? Thanks. Best wishes pt #100794 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > That's why I am 'underwhelmed' by some of the Tipitaka's conventional > statements. (We look to the Tipitaka for right understanding of nama and > rupa, not for conventional understanding.) For example, when it says > that a married woman should treat her parents-in-law like gods. I think > modern-day social commentators and ethicists are a better source of > guidance in that department. > > A person with right understanding of nama and rupa will know how to act > properly in any situation. > > Ken H > Dear Ken I think you are starting to see that you are taking a somewhat extreme position. Remember some of the Dhammapada commentary or jataka commentary stories I cited that left you cold. But these have inspired millions of Buddhist throughout the millenia and I find them very convincing. You point about only one moment of citta (therefore how can there be giving etc) ignores the Abhidhamma teaching about the various conditions from the past - that is how the continuity of cittas occur. As for revering ones parent -in-laws: well wouldn't married life and society go smoother if this was the case? I don't see western commentators and ethicists helping much at all, unless you think a divorce rate that has tripled in thirty years a sign of progress? Robert #100795 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:02 am Subject: Sex. . . rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: >> Looking for someone to blame for my muddled thinking :-) I might point > to the way DSG and the recorded talks (with K Sujin) occasionally treat > concepts as if they were dhammas. You will remember the talk in which K > S was asked about sexual misconduct with regard to the precepts. She was > quite adamant that sex between unmarried people was a breach of the > precepts. (Because unmarried women were still under the care and > protection of their parents or guardians.) > > I am sure some people at the meeting would have been thinking "Won't > that depend on cultural traditions and other circumstances?" But K Sujin > was quite adamant. > Dear Ken This is a subject I struggle with, especially as I live with a girl, in sin, as my mother would say (or would have said 30 years ago- she seems to be more 'broadminded' now). Now Junko is 29 and her parents know that we live together- in fact we visted them in Japan and stayed in a room in their house. Am I nevertheless in breech of the precept? Does it all change if we get married? Also my 20 year old daugher has a boyfriend and they stay together in weekends. I am not overly excited about this but not too worried either, after all what can one do or say in this age. Is that boy breaking the precept? Robert #100796 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:49 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 6, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Question: Do you believe that you will be a better person when you understand all these things? Answer: If there is more direct understanding of realities there will be less clinging to the idea of self. We shall think less of ourselves as a good person or a bad person. There are wholesome realities and unwholesome realities which arise because of conditions. It is beneficial when there is less attachment to the idea of a self who sees, who hears, who is good or bad. Question: When you believe that there is no self who can do anything, does this not lead to fatalism? Answer: There is no predestined fate ruling over our life. However, the different moments of our life are conditioned by the past and by the present. It is essential to know and understand the present moment as conditioned. Understanding the present moment will gradually lead to the eradication of the defilements that cause us to be enslaved. Understanding will evenually lead to liberation and to enlightenment. When understanding develops you see more and more the value of knowing things as they are. You gain more confidence in the teachings and this conditions a sense of urgency to continue to develop understanding of all realities. One will have less inclination to laziness or to fatalism. Question: Realities may not appear as they are in this life. Thus, one's confidence must be quite strong in order to continue to develop understanding. One must be convinced that one is on the right Path. Answer: We don't have to wait for realities to appear as they are; we can still have confidence. There is confidence with each wholesome moment of consciousness, for example, when we help someone else or when we study the teachings and consider them. We can verify that confidence is a wholesome reality. We should not expect to know immediately realities as they are, but we can have confidence while we develop different kinds of wholesomeness together with right understanding. We can verify that absolute realities are not concepts. Realities such as seeing, feeling or attachment have each their own characteristic and their own function. Their characteristics cannot be changed; they are true for everyone. Seeing is always seeing for everyone; we do not have to name it or label it in order to experience it. When we have more understanding of what realities are, we shall be less deluded by concepts of people or self. We still cling to realities and concepts, but we know that right understanding will lead to less clinging. Question: Even when one knows that realities do not last, that they arise and then fall away, one will still cling. One will be waiting for the next reality to appear. Answer: Through awareness and right understanding you can see the value of being free from enslavement to objects appearing through the six doorways, even if it is only freedom for a moment. ******* Nina. #100797 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . kenhowardau Hi Robert, ------------- <. . .> R: > I think you are starting to see that you are taking a somewhat extreme position. -------------- I don't see *yet* that I am taking an extreme position. But I do see that I am not always in complete agreement with people who know the Dhamma much better than I do. So you could be right, maybe I am *starting* to see that I am taking an extreme position. :-) ------------------------- <. . .> R: > Your point about only one moment of citta (therefore how can there be giving etc) ignores the Abhidhamma teaching about the various conditions from the past - that is how the continuity of cittas occur. ------------------------- I see it as a question more than as a point. I believe all Dhamma students should be asking, "Given that there is no atta - no person or lasting thing of any kind - then how can there be suffering? How can there be an end to suffering . . . a path (etc)? And that's what I had in mind when I asked "Given that there are only the presently arisen fleeting dhammas, in what way are we to understand dana?" The answer, "There has to be an act of dana," was not what I was expecting. I have never suggested it was a wrong answer. Just that it had me stumped. Recently, I have been less stumped. I have been told that we don't actually need to know whether, in any given situation, an act of dana has or has not been performed. (I shouldn't have needed to be told that: it had probably been explained scores of times already.) --------------------------- R: > As for revering ones parent -in-laws: well wouldn't married life and society go smoother if this was the case? I don't see western commentators and ethicists helping much at all, unless you think a divorce rate that has tripled in thirty years a sign of progress? ---------------------------- I think in the Buddha's day there were many questionable rules of society (including some designed to subjugate women for the benefit of their husbands). I feel sure that, rather than approve or disapprove of those conventional rules, we are expected to ask how they could apply in ultimate reality - where there are only the presently arisen namas and rupas. Ken H #100798 From: "freawaru80" Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:51 am Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. freawaru80 Hi All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (100627) > > > I don't know of anyone on this list who has advocated "mere >intellectual comprehension" (Do you?). > > > > Okay. How do you practice it then? Or shall I say, how are these realities seen? > > We would all like to know how it's done. If only it were capable of being reduced to a set of instructions to be followed! ;-)) I am confused. Isn't the usual set of instructions: practice concentration and switch to observation when the concentration has the required strenght? #100799 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:53 am Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "freawaru80" wrote: > <. . .> > I am confused. Isn't the usual set of instructions: practice concentration and switch to observation when the concentration has the required strenght? Hi new member, Welcome to DSG. There are no instructions in the original Theravada texts and so most people feel obliged to invent their own. And yes, they ones they invent usually are similar to the ones you have mentioned. The ancient Theravada texts teach a way of understanding, not a way of doing. And so they would never contain instructions. Instead they contain descriptions of the way things are. So we can have right understanding. Ken H