#101400 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:46 pm Subject: Re:Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. sarahprocter... Dear Staisha, --- On Thu, 15/10/09, Staisha Perry wrote: >[dsg]Hello friends, could you please tell me where you meet for live dhamma discussions, or if k. Sujin accepts visitors from the states. We wish everyone well being, and are curious about k. Sujins age. ... S: Jon, Azita and I are presently visiting Bangkok, Thailand for the discussions with K.Sujin. Of course, she's always very glad to meet visitors with an interest in the Dhamma from any place. Best to check in advance as she sometimes travels out of the country and you'd be travelling a long way. For example, in a couple of weeks she'll be visiting India. Next March, she'll be visiting Sri Lanka. Sometimes she goes on trips in Thailand too. She's a little over 80 yrs, but is very youthful and alert for her age. If you look in the photo album on DSG, somewhere you'll find a pic, such in group gatherings. I'd like to encourage you and any other newcomers to also add your pic to the album:-) Metta Sarah ========== #101401 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:43 am Subject: Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. scottduncan2 Dear azita, Regarding: a: 'I found another in my little book of scribblings: A person may plunder as he will. when others plunder in return, He, plundered, plunders them again. The fool believes he is in luck as long as evil does not ripen; But when it does the fool fares ill. The slayer gets himself a slayer, The victor finds a conqueror, The abuser gets himself abused, The persecutor persecuted. The wheels of deeds turns round again, and makes the plundered plunderers. S.N. 3:14-15" Scott: Yes, thank you. I like that. To me, this Dhamma shows the reactions of James and Howard to really be a variation of the dogma coming out of the whole Political-Correctness Movement, which is, of course, a Resort for Fascists. :-) Really nothing to do with Dhamma at all. Sincerely, Scott. #101402 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, p... upasaka_howard Why, thank you, Scott! This tells me a lot. You will not get to directly hear from this angry fascist any more - so don't be concerned about that. In a message dated 10/15/2009 10:44:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Scott: Yes, thank you. I like that. To me, this Dhamma shows the reactions of James and Howard to really be a variation of the dogma coming out of the whole Political-Correctness Movement, which is, of course, a Resort for Fascists. :-) #101403 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, p... scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Why, thank you, Scott! This tells me a lot. You will not get to directly hear from this angry fascist any more - so don't be concerned about that." ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #101404 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:29 am Subject: Re: Dhs. The arising of consciousness - 12 akusala, 2 rooted in aversion truth_aerator Hello Phil, and all, >"philofillet" wrote: > > > Hi Lukas > > > The point is I prefer to stay with thinking, I forget to study >with attention. > > I'm really hassling you, Lukas. Sorry. But this is a very >important point. Acharn Sujin tells us again and again that we >should (and the word "should" is often used in Nina's books) "study >the present reality." This is correct and important. Study the hindrances that arise when you meditate in order to apply the right countermeasure at the right time. This is why mindfulness and attentiveness is necessary. I am very much inspired by your effort, Phil. With metta, Alex #101405 From: "colette" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:36 am Subject: "Awfully white of you" Det. Harry Callaghan i.e. Dirty Harry ksheri3 Hi Sarah and Lukas, Great points Sarah: > .... > S: What's the difference between attachment and anger? > S: They don't know what awareness is. Why do so many people do this? Because so many people don't understand what awareness is. > > etc, etc, etc, THANK YOU SARAH! It's fundamental, not this contrived sense of being. We today are manifesting a reality based upon technology and not this hypothetical reality which we give to this consciousness of "gods" and/or "demi-gods". You have taken the step, in your reply, to cognize a differntiation and to acknowledge that this or that differentiation plays THE PIVOTAL PART. To reach this state of consciousness you must have first rationalized a difference in PERSPECTIVE, a difference in POINT OF VIEW, a difference in CONTEXT. What do these differences imply? The differences in common synonyms simply imply that there actually is a difference. You cannot apply the Buddha's supposed words that some monks documented centuries after they were spoken and rely upon that interpretation as being exact or direct from the Buddha's mouth. THERE EXISTS A TIME LAG. THERE EXISTS A TRANSFORMATION. THERE EXISTS A REASONABLE DOUBT THAT WHAT THE FEW TAKE AS BEING THE DOCTRINE OF THE BUDDHA AND ADMINISTER AS BEING THE DOCTRINE OF THE BUDDHA, IS FALSE WITNESS. IT IS FALSE SINCE ALL THE PARTIES WERE NOT NOR ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THE DETEREMINATION OF THE DEFINATIONS OF THE DOCTRINE. WE, THEREFORE, ARE FORCED TO ALLOW ROOM TO GROW, ROOM TO MANUEVER, ROOM TO REFLECT, ROOM TO REVERBERATE, ETC, THESE CANONICAL DECISIONS THAT THE FEW HAVE MADE FOR THE MANY. Good to hear from you Sarah, and your voice is from HOng Kong, good to hear to from Hong Kong during this turbulent time between "capitalism and the state owned & controlled monetary system". Thank You. toodles, colette #101406 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Faculties, induvidials, modes of progress nilovg Dear Alex, Ken H, Op 15-okt-2009, om 1:34 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > Question: How does one know if one has: > > keen, middle or blunt faculties? > ------- > Hello Alex, > > As I understand it, we are not meant to concern ourselves with such > questions. Just understand how different dhammas condition other > different dhammas in different ways. > > If we concern ourselves with "Which of those types am I?" then > won't we automatically concern ourselves with all the other wrong > views ("Will I be reborn? Will I not be reborn? Will I be both > (etc., etc.)")? ------- N: Whatever happens will happen any way by conditions. Besies, it is not difficult to find out how blunt one is. Nina. #101407 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How to reduce anger (for Lukas) Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. nilovg Dear Lukas, Phil, Op 15-okt-2009, om 3:25 heeft philofillet het volgende geschreven: > In the meantime, please relax and don't be too hard on yourself. > You were born human with a sensitivity to the Dhamma.There is very > good kamma at work in "you", you are a good person, a very > fortunate being with a great opportunity to help others. ------ N: I appreciate Phil's words to you, Lukas, and they are true. Nina. #101408 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. nilovg Dear Ken O, Lodewijk appreciates your mail very much and he finds it very helpful. Nina. Op 15-okt-2009, om 5:26 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > The Bodhisatta realised the imperanence of the dewdrops and made > this predominant in accumulating a sense of urgency and > disenchantment; its arose one and then became a condition leading > to its arising very often." > > IMHO - this shows the sense of urgency is accumulated slowly but > surely. It is the considering of condition dhammas in our daily > lifes that will accumulate the sense of urgency. It cannot be > forced or done quickly, it depends on one considering of dhamma and > its accumulation. I have a few epsiodes of sense of urgency but > it is never strong enough to be recluse. I accept it and live on > as usual, and believe that when it is time of it to becomes strong > enough, it will. #101409 From: "James" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:30 pm Subject: Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. buddhatrue Hi Scott, > The wheels of deeds turns round again, and makes the plundered > plunderers. S.N. 3:14-15" > > Scott: Yes, thank you. I like that. To me, this Dhamma shows the reactions of James and Howard to really be a variation of the dogma coming out of the whole Political-Correctness Movement, which is, of course, a Resort for Fascists. :-) > > Really nothing to do with Dhamma at all. > I don't appreciate being called a facist. You are really taking your defense of that racist commentary too far. I think you just don't get it. For example, I was born gay. Does that mean I have bad kamma? After all, people discriminate against me and I have been fired from a job once for being gay. So, you could say that being gay is bad kamma vipaka. However, if I was born gay a few hundred years ago in a Native American tribe, I could be the most respected member of the tribe and a shaman. If I was born in ancient Greece I could be a respected member of society, even a teacher or philosopher. So, it isn't the being born gay that is my downfault, it is because I was born into a society where some people are stupid and closeminded about being gay. The same goes for Jews, blacks, untouchables, and any other disenfranchised people. It is a stupid society which causes the problem, not a specific kind of birth. Justifying the ancient commentaries to perpetuate further racism and hate is not Dhamma and it is not humane. I think you should closely examine yourself. Metta, James #101410 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:49 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (59) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 7. Ruupas from different Factors (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ The following three kinds of ruupa are sometimes produced by citta, sometimes by temperature, sometimes by nutrition. They are: buoyancy or lightness (lahutaa) plasticity (mudutaa) wieldiness (kamma~n~nataa) Because of lightness, our body is not heavy or sluggish. Because of plasticity it is pliable, it has elasticity and is not stiff. Because of wieldiness it has adaptability. For the movement of the body and the performance of its functions, these three qualities are essential. They arise in the bodies of living beings, not in dead matter. These three ruupas are ruupas without a distinct nature, asabhaava ruupas; they are qualities of ruupa, namely, changeability of ruupa (vikaara rúpas, vikaara meaning change) [Note 1]. The "Atthasaali.nii" (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 326) gives the following definitions of these three kinds of ruupa [Note 2]: " ... buoyancy of matter has non-sluggishness as its characteristic, removing the heaviness of material objects as its function, quickness of change as its manifestation, buoyant matter as its proximate cause. Next 'plasticity of matter' has non-rigidity as characteristic, removing the rigidity of material objects as function, absence of opposition in all acts due to its own plasticity as manifestation, plastic matter as proximate cause. 'Wieldiness of matter' has workableness suitable or favorable to bodily actions as characteristic, removal of non-workableness as function, non- weakness as manifestation, workable matter as proximate cause." [Note 1] As we have seen in Ch 6, the two ruupas of bodily intimation, kaaya vi~n~natti, and speech intimation, vaci vi~n~natti, are also qualities of ruupa that are changeability of ruupa, vikaara ruupas. In some texts bodily intimation and speech intimation are classified separately as the two ruupas of intimation, vi~n~natti ruupas. [Note 2] See also Dhammasanga.nii § 639 - 641 and Visuddhimagga XIV, 64. ------------------------------ Chapter 7. Ruupas from different Factors (to be continued) With metta, Han #101411 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. sarahprocter... Hi James & all, Firstly, welcome back! --- On Fri, 16/10/09, James wrote: <...> > The wheels of deeds turns round again, and makes the plundered > plunderers. S.N. 3:14-15" ... S: Yes, it all comes down to kamma and vipaka. We all know that good kamma brings good results and bad kamma brings bad results. We talk conventionally about the result of bad kamma when we say things like "I lost my wallet", but actually, the vipaka just refers to the seeing of particular sights, the hearing of particular sounds, the experiencing through the body-sense with pleasant or unpleasant feeling. As you suggest, we can't tell even for ourselves most the time (if at all), let alone for the others, whether the present vipaka is good or bad. Even when someone loses their wallet, most of the problem comes down to the annoyance and thinking about it. So, actually, in a way, what you're pointing to below is how we need to consider what we read in the texts very carefully. Without some understanding of the Abhidhamma, we're bound to go on thinking in terms of situations such as "being gay is bad kamma vipaka" or "being rich is good vipaka". In fact, vipaka, just refers to a momentary citta, so we all experience good and bad vipaka. As you suggest, if people discriminate, then that in itself will be the condition for some akusala vipaka. What will then make a difference is whether we respond to that akusala vipaka with kusala cittas such as friendliness, kindness, generosity, equanimity, or with akusala cittas such as hostility. The latter leads to akusala kamma which in turn will bring more akusala vipaka, hence it" makes the plundered plunderers". Yes, I think it's good advice to "examine ourselves", show friendliness and kindness to those with different understandings, however wrong they may seem in our eyes. Thanks for helping me to reflect on these issues. [All: There have been a few too many personal comments/accusations flying around recently and I can understand people getting upset, but let's all cool it and move on like Good Dhamma Friends!!] Metta Sarah J:> For example, I was born gay. Does that mean I have bad kamma? After all, people discriminate against me and I have been fired from a job once for being gay. So, you could say that being gay is bad kamma vipaka. However, if I was born gay a few hundred years ago in a Native American tribe, I could be the most respected member of the tribe and a shaman. <...> #101412 From: "connie" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:15 pm Subject: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary nichiconn Dear Howard, I think we've both gone off the deep end again & for my part, I apologize & acknowledge that you bore me no ill will either. Thank you. Really, good to think that no matter how different our sides of the street are, we can look across them with friendly eyes. (: Make it cow eyes! Sn II.7 Brahmanical Lore 296. "Like a mother, father, brother, or other relative too, cows are our best friends, in which medicines are produced. 297. The give food, strength, [good] complexion, and likewise happiness." Knowing this fact, they did not kill cows. 308. And then the king, lord of warriors, induced by the brahmans, had many hundreds of thousands of cows killed in a sacrifice. 309. Not by their feet, nor by their horns, nor by anything [else] had the cows harmed [anyone]. They were like sheep, meek, giving pails of milk. [Nevertheless] the king, seizing them by the horns, had them killed with a knife. 310. And then the devas, and the fathers, Inda, asuras and rakkhasas called out: "[This is] injustice," when the knife fell on the cows. 311. Formerly there were three diseases: desire, hunger, and old age. But from the killing of cattle ninety-eight [diseases] came. 312. This injustice of using violence has come down [to us] as an ancient practice. Innocent [cows] are killed; the sacrificers fall away from justice. 313. Thus this ancient mean practice is balmed by those who understand. Where people see such a thing [beng done], they blame the sacrificer. 314. When justice perished thus, suddas and vessikas were split; khattiyas were split wide apart; a wife despised her husband. 315. Khattiyas and the relatives of Brahmaa and the others who were protected by clan, putting aside talk about caste, came under the influence of sensual pleasures.' Norman. Cows are something less friendly in a footnote to verses 26-27. << ... In the Kassaka-sutta of the Samyutta nikaya (S I 114.26 - 116.13) Mara appears in the guise of a ploughman and asks the Buddha if he has seen his oxen. The Buddha asks him what oxen have to do with him, and Mara replies that the organs of sense and their objects belong to him. The Buddha states that where there are no senses and no objects of sense there is no way for Maara. This exchange makes it clear that there was a metaphorical usage of the word "cattle" in the meaning "senses". ...>> peace, connie #101413 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > <. . .> > p.s. Ken H: Our diary about the present moment stopped short, it is > your turn, but no need to force it. ----------- Hi Nina, I hadn't forgotten, but thanks for the reminder. The trouble is there is too much to say about it. I can't decide what to leave out. :-) Here's something for the interim: "There is only the present moment." Anyone who doesn't love that statement has never understood it. Ken H #101414 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:53 pm Subject: Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. scottduncan2 Dear James, Regarding: Me: Yes, thank you. I like that. To me, this Dhamma shows the reactions of James and Howard to really be a variation of the dogma coming out of the whole Political-Correctness Movement, which is, of course, a Resort for Fascists. :-) J: "I don't appreciate being called a facist... Scott: I've elided the rest of your comments since I consider them irrelevant. I really, seriously don't mind who you find yourself wanting to love and only hope you can find someone who makes you happy. If you consider yourself to be a member of the 'Political-Correctness Movement' -an organization I just made up - then of course you'd be up in arms about MY OPINION that I THINK all members of this so-called movement are fascists, because, of course, you'd all be feeling like happy martyrs for the cause - you know, victims of someone who thinks differently than we are all supposed to think. ;-) I'd never appear on an internet forum for the Political-Correctness Movement' and think to disparage them on their home turf. That wouldn't be on at all. Tempest in a teapot, dude. I have my opinion on the Dhamma as well, which I presented by offering a sutta. Kamma leads to vipaaka. Sincerely, Scott. #101415 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:30 pm Subject: Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. szmicio Dear Ken, Thank you, That's excellant story. It always reminds me of how this whole thing is accumulated. Such stories clean my doubts. I like it. just saw a dewdrop and get disenchanted. Nina asked in previous post on right understanding: Let me know what you think about it? And I can say I really appreciate the posts with right understanding. Acctually I see a little of hope for me in developing right understanding. I have a big difficulties with talking with Phil, who mentions a lot of siila and kusala. I feel big difficulties. But of course I appreciate it. ------------------------ > L: How to get more samvega? > > pg 269 Chapter IX, Commentary of the The Lovingkindness Discourse, in the book Minor Readings and Illustrator translated Nanamoli > > para 10..... Eight Principal Grounds for a Sense of Urgency are either birth, ageing, sickness, death and the suffering in the fours states of deprivation, or else they are four consisting of birth, ageing, sickness and death, then the suffering in the states of deprivation as the fifth, the suffering rooted in the round during the past, the suffering rooted in the round during the future and the suffering rooted in the search of nutriment. > > > pg 52, Chapter - The Perfection of Wisdom, The Perfections Leading to Enlightment > > "In his life when Bodhisatta was Yudanjaya, he was the eldest son of the King and had the rank of viceroy. He fulfilled every day maha-dana, the giving of abundance of gifts. One day he visited the royal park he saw dewdrops hanging like a string of pearls on the tree top, the grass tips, the end of the branches and on the spiders' webs. > > The prince enjoyed himself in the royal park and when the sun rose higher all the dewdrops that were hanging there disintergrated and disappeared, He reflected thus: "These dewdrops came into being and then disappeared. Evenso are conditioned realities, the lives of all beings; they are like the dewdrops hanging on the grass-tips" He felt a sense of urgency and became disenchanted with wordly life, so that he took leave of his parents and become a recluse" > > "The Bodhisatta realised the imperanence of the dewdrops and made this predominant in accumulating a sense of urgency and disenchantment; its arose one and then became a condition leading to its arising very often." > > IMHO - this shows the sense of urgency is accumulated slowly but surely. It is the considering of condition dhammas in our daily lifes that will accumulate the sense of urgency. It cannot be forced or done quickly, it depends on one considering of dhamma and its accumulation. I have a few epsiodes of sense of urgency but it is never strong enough to be recluse. I accept it and live on as usual, and believe that when it is time of it to becomes strong enough, it will. Who knows you may one day have it in this life. What I felt is that we should be joyous that we have kusala kamma to be borne in a fortunate time, place to learn dhamma especially Abhidhamma and to have many wise dhamma friends around like Nina, Sarah, Jon and RobK. Lets not worry what we cannot develop, lets look at what is available and helpful. ------------- L: You say: "Let's not worry what we cannot develop, lets look at what is available and helpful" This is true, but I think my problem is not just the words, I can say to myself everything. That's not a problem, lets do this, dont bother with that. But it doesnt change anything. Still deep conditions to misery. Best wishes Lukas #101416 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:21 pm Subject: Ageing Again...! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Ageing Reproduces same Suffering ever Again! Ageing is suffering: And what is ageing? Whatever decay, decrepitude, brokenness of teeth, graying of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of strength, weakening of the mental abilities, feebleness, and senility of whatever kind of being, that is called aging. Its function is to lead on to death! It is manifested as the vanishing of youth. It is suffering because of the change into decay and the gradual, but steadily falling apart of the body. The loss of memory and intelligence in senile dementia is also distressing. With leadenness in every limb, With every ability declining, With vanishing of youthfulness, With memory all evaporated, With intelligence eroded away, With strength now drained, With growing unattractiveness Now looking and smelling bad To both wife, friends and family: This is the unavoidable misery Any mortal must expect to find! Since ageing all of this will bring, Ageing is well named suffering. Vism 502 + MN 141 Ageing and Death Have a nice realisitic day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #101417 From: "James" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:45 pm Subject: Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Regarding: > > Me: Yes, thank you. I like that. To me, this Dhamma shows the reactions of James and Howard to really be a variation of the dogma coming out of the whole Political-Correctness Movement, which is, of course, a Resort for Fascists. :-) > > J: "I don't appreciate being called a facist... > > Scott: I've elided the rest of your comments since I consider them irrelevant. James: They were very relevant. I guess you just don't know what is important and what isn't. I really, seriously don't mind who you find yourself wanting to love and only hope you can find someone who makes you happy. > James: That's very nice of you but now you are being irrelevant. I was using my case as an example of the unknowable quality of kamma vipaka which completely went over your head; I wasn't looking for you to approve of my lifestyle. I think you should read the post by Sarah, which is on the mark. > If you consider yourself to be a member of the 'Political-Correctness Movement' -an organization I just made up - then of course you'd be up in arms about MY OPINION that I THINK all members of this so-called movement are fascists, because, of course, you'd all be feeling like happy martyrs for the cause - you know, victims of someone who thinks differently than we are all supposed to think. ;-) > James: Oh yes, I'm sure your insults were just 'hypothetical'. Whatever. > I'd never appear on an internet forum for the Political-Correctness Movement' and think to disparage them on their home turf. That wouldn't be on at all. > > Tempest in a teapot, dude. > James: Again, whatever. > I have my opinion on the Dhamma as well, which I presented by offering a sutta. Kamma leads to vipaaka. > James: I don't think you understand kamma or kamma-vipaka, even a little bit. You are being too arrogant and think you know everything. > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Metta, James #101418 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? jonoabb Hi pt Sorry for the delay in responding. I'm afraid the picture is not all that much clearer to me now than it was before I got here ;-)) (101137) > Sure, the passage is from the actor sutta SN 42.2: > > Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor - himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless - with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb. – translation from ATI: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn42/sn42.002.than.html > =============== A brief summary of what I understand from the discussions (I've brought up the subject in more than one of the sessions): The sutta is referring to conduct by the actor that is akusala kamma patha. It's not possible to say that it's one or other of the 10 akusala kamma patha in particular. The actor is different from, say, a cook. He is trying to persuade the audience to feel this way or that. To do this and enjoy doing it is the unwholesomeness in question. It's not a matter of all actors being persons who commit akusala kamma patha. As always, it depends on the intention involved. Ordinary people can also have a similar intention. For example, they may conduct themselves so as to influence another person's views or perception. =============== > To quickly summarise the issues: > - the main part in question is "having made others intoxicated & heedless" > - does it refer to making others heedless of ultimate realities, or conventional matters? =============== No clear view was expressed on this question. For what it's worth, my own thoughts are that the heedlessness relates to ultimate realties. The Pali term is 'pamaada', which is the term used elsewhere in the texts for such kind of heedlessness. Coupled with the term "intoxicated" it seems to be referring to a significant level of akusala. =============== > - how is acting different from all other occupations which also draw attention to conventional matters, not ultimate realities? =============== The problem is not that it draws attention to conventional matters (all kinds of conduct do that;-)). The conduct goes further than that; as the sutta makes clear, the conduct is conduct which incites people having lobha, dosa and moha to even stronger lobha, dosa and moha. =============== > - if there are no kamma pathas committed on either side (actor and audience), does the actor bear any kammic responsibility for the medium level greed and hate arising in the audience during the performance? Thanks. =============== Not sure whether I've understood the question here. But as stated above, I think the sutta is referring to instances of akusala kamma patha of one kind or another. Jon #101419 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:58 am Subject: Some Pali Section Numbers Regarding Saasana Declining Process --- Re: Sex. . . abhidhammika Dear Robert K, Nina, Chris F How are you? Robert, you wrote to Sayadaw Dhammanando: "Look forward to reading all thse texts once you have the time. if you could send the pali and the exact citation the pali experts at the foundation will be able to quickly look them all up and then we get get some useful feedback..Hope your stay in Denmark goes well. Sayadaw's statement 1: _______________________________________________ 1. The article's authors base their conclusion on the prediction of decline in the Vinaya Atthakathaa, and a parallel passage in the Anguttara Atthakathaa, but ignore a discrepant prediction also contained in the Anguttara Atthakathaa (commentary to a nameless sutta in the Pamaadaadi Vagga of the Ekanipaata). _____________________________________________________ For the above statement, please see Section 130, Dutiyapamaadaadi Vagga Va.n.nanaa, Ekanipaata, Anguttaranikaayo. Sayadaw's Statement 3: _____________________________________________ 3. They misunderstand the Digha Atthakathaa's commentary to the Sampasaadaniiya Sutta as being relevant only to the decline of the past dispensation of Kassapa Buddha. But the very reason for the commentary describing the decline of pa.tivedha in Kassapa's dispensation is that the Diigha-bhaa.nakas held that pa.tivedha in Gotama's dispensation would decline in an identical pattern (as attested in the Anguttara and Vinaya sub-commentaries). __________________________________________________________ For the above Statement 3, please see Section 161, Sampasaadaniiya Sutta Va.n.nanaa, Paathika Vaggo, Diighanikaayo. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw wwww.bodhiology.org #101420 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:01 am Subject: Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. scottduncan2 Dear James, Regarding: James: "That's very nice of you..." Scott: Thanks, man. James: "I don't think you understand kamma or kamma-vipaka, even a little bit. You are being too arrogant and think you know everything." Scott: Okay. Sincerely, Scott. #101421 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Some brief notes from the discussions on various topics relating to DSG posts <3>: 1. Sapaya Sampajanna Sickness - medicine, food, relating to satipatthana? If we pursue, forests, foods, medicines, books and so on in order to have sati, it's not understanding. We have to consider carefully. However, by natural decisive support condition, we can find that at this moment, such things may be a support condition. If we over-eat, we feel sleepy and so on. The right posture can lead to not getting stiff or tired as a condition for kusala, but if we adopt a particular position in order to have kusala or calm, then it's not sappaya sampajanna. We can do anything to develop kusala when it's the wrong way. Suitability of 7 kinds of sappaya, Han #99931, 100065 -when in the abode that is suitable by pakatu-upanissaya paccaya, that is aavaasa sappaaya, suitablility of abode. Not going to such a 'suitable abode' to develop awareness or calm. When there is understanding of an object (paramattha dhamma in the case of satipatthana), that is gocara sappaya, or suitable resort. It's not a selecting of a 'suitable' object in order to develop understanding or concentration. The same for the other kinds of sappaya -suitable speech (bhassa-s) - the words that are suitable at that moment for understanding, suitable person, food, climate or posture (puggala-s, bhojana-s, utu-s, iriyaapatha-s. When the citta is kusala, there's no hindrance. 2. Ahara and oja #98725, #98719 Han, Lukas & Nina - the meaning is exactly the same, it just depends on the context which word is used. No difference at all, depending on whether it is in external food, internal nutritive essence etc., humans, non-humans etc - same reality. 3. Birth and death directly known? Lukas #98619. They can never be known (for anyone) at the moments of arising. Depends on accumulations if they can be known later. (I'm not referring to momentary birth and death here.) 4. Body parts, Lukas #98618 - to be directly known, the rupas taken to be the body parts,kesaa, lomaa, nakhaa etc. Same in Satip Sutta. 5. Piya rupa, sata rupa - as discussed, that can be the object of attachment - any nama or rupa (other than lokuttara dhammas). 6. Jhana condition and factors, Alberto& Dan #99605. The relationship. Without jhana factors, the jhana cittas cannot arise.Panna is not a jhana factor because whenever there is panna, there are the factors. Jhana - burning up. Sotapatti magga lokuttara jhana burns up the akusala. Kusla jhana factors - a temorary burning up at any moment 7. 3 Gocara (objects for understanding) - a) upanissaya gocara, associating with, understanding from hearing by sankhara khandha b) aaraka gocara, protects the object, samvara (guarding) c) upanibanda (sp?) gocara, the moment of understanding reality now. Gocara refers to the object of citta and these stages refer to a better and better understanding of what one has heard or read. The Teachings are about the objects of understanding. See Psm transl p.232 8. Yamaka. BB's comment on kamaavacarabhuumiya #101139 referring to the citta, not the plane. Yes, because 'vacara' means to move from eye to ear and so on- wandering amongst sense objects. Under Anusaya Yamaka, when refering to the last section, (in summary)"The Biases in the various 'Spheres of existence" (dhaatu-vaara), it is the 31 planes being referred to. 9. Sati sampajanna in samatha sees the danger of lobha, in vipassana, the danger of avijja. 10. Developing samatha - according to the book, it sounds as if one can decide whether to develop it, but actually, we cannot select any object. By understanding anatta, panna can know anything - everything depends on understanding. If there is attachment to select, it depends on panna to know. One can understand one's own accumulations, whether it is attachment or not. If we go to a temple to develop samatha, there is no understanding of what sati and sampajanna is, even at the level of samatha development. There has to be an understanding of kusala and akusala to know whether it is samatha. Sangiiti Sutta #98801, Connie, Scott, Nina and reference to craving for oil, honey and ghee underbhavaabhavo.and Walshe's comment. These are just examples - we could add etc etc etc for objects of attachment. 11. Vohara - conventional language describing paramattha - all the Buddha's Teachings are vohara. We need to understand the meaning behind the vohara. Wise conventional speech, so that panna may arise for whoever thinks of what the Buddha said. For example, talking about Jetavana (where the Buddha stayed and gave so many sermons) can be a condition to think with respect about the place, the words. It depends on accumulations what sanna will recall. The same would apply to visiting the Holy Places, circumambulating and so on. It depends on the saddha and panna. There can be panna to understand his virtues, his enlightenment. It's not for fun, but depends on panna. Also now....depends on accumulations whether any understanding arises, whether any knowing of present realities. ***** Metta Sarah ======= #101422 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, Continuing... (notes from K.Sujin's replies): --- On Thu, 8/10/09, Lukas wrote: >9. I've experienced tender insight. A deep truth. And now I forget it. .... S: Who does not forget? The panna which has experienced. Expectation is not the moment of detachment. If it were really insight, would it arise again, someone asked. Anything can happen, otherwise expectations and keep on thinking about it. ... >10. I feel a lot of dosa. I am forgeting the reality now. ... S: Very natural. Who can make it different from now? Lobha is there - always there, unknown. .... >11. I feel like no samvega now. .... S: .... >12. What if i am involved in my own deep ignorance, and I dont see the way to get out of it. .... S: No way. While one's finding the way out, what about the understanding. Should we think and think by ourselves or understand? .... 13. I feel dosa when reading. Stong dosa, and I cant read. .... S: Who can do anything for you without your own understanding? More and more akusala in future, if no understanding. ... >14. The moments of moving hand is so conditioned. .... S: True. Can the hand move without citta? .... >15. I left all my life to conditions. I just live. But the whole my life is one big akusala. Even I hear about development of kusala, they dont arise. .... S: Expectations! Read the first two sentences again! .... >16. I know what you mean by yoniso manasikara, it's really funny how much its out of control. I fint it out to myself that moments with yoniso manasikara are conditioned, When they appear there is bhavana. .... S: But not yoniso manasikara. Who knows manasikara or phassa when they appear? By inference only, but not "I know". .... >17. When I meet different people I dont say anything, when they are wrong, or they do some mischevious. Sometimes I say, what's a problem? ... S: If you say something, there might be a problem! ... >18. I've go past moments of understanding and know I dont understand. .... S: No understanding. ... to be contd... Metta Sarah ======= #101423 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:41 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 2, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, There may be theoretical understanding of the fact that all that can be experienced is impermanent and therefore unsatisfactory or dukkha. The Truth of dukkha, however, cannot be realized through theoretical understanding alone. There can be thinking of the impermanence of everything in life, but it is extremely difficult to realize through one’s own experience the arising and falling away, thus, the breaking up from moment to moment of phenomena. Through the development of the eightfold Path there can eventually be direct understanding of the impermanence of the phenomena of life and of their nature of dukkha. All phenomena are impermanent. There should be precise understanding of what that “all” is. Otherwise there cannot be the realization of impermanence and dukkha. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense, First Fifty, Chapter 3, §23, The all) that the Buddha said to the monks while he was at Såvatthí: Monks, I will teach you the all. Do you listen to it. And what, monks, is the all? It is eye and visible object, ear and sound, nose and scent, tongue and savour, body and tangible object, mind and mind-states. That, monks, is called the “all”. Whoso, monks, should say: “Rejecting this all, I will proclaim another all,—it would be mere talk on his part, and when questioned he could not make good his boast, and further would come to an ill pass. Why so? Because, monks, it would be beyond his scope to do so. From this sutta we see that the Buddha’s teaching is very concrete, that it pertains to all realities of daily life: the seeing of visible object through the eyes; the hearing of sound through the ears; the smelling of odours through the nose; the tasting of flavours through the tongue; the experience of tangible object through the bodysense; the experience of mental objects through the mind. When one first comes into contact with the Buddhist teachings one may be surprised that the Buddha speaks time and again about realities such as seeing and hearing. However, the “all” has to be known and investigated. There is such a great deal of ignorance of mental phenomena and physical phenomena. ******* Nina. #101424 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:50 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Asjin's book. nilovg Dear Han, Op 15-okt-2009, om 14:23 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: My command of English is not good enough to translate Burmese > into English. So I will just say how I understand the subject > instead of word for word translation. ------ N: I do not agree, your command of English is excellent. You manage very well translating from Burmese. I will ask you more in future to profit from your knowledge. -------- > > H: Suppose the teacher moves his hand signaling the student to come > to him, the student immediately knows that the teacher wants him to > come by kaayavi~n~natti of the teacher. Now, what actually makes > the student know that? Is it due to (1) citta of the teacher, or > (2) cittaja-ruupa of the teacher, or (3) just the movement of the > hand of the teacher, or (4) special suggestion or intimation by the > teacher? [This last one is difficult to translate.] -------- N: His explanations are very good, indicating that so many factors have to come together when a teacher signals a student to come near. What are the subjects in this book, is it about all the books of the Abhidhamma? Nina. #101425 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken H's diary. nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 16-okt-2009, om 4:45 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > I hadn't forgotten, but thanks for the reminder. The trouble is > there is > too much to say about it. I can't decide what to leave out. :-) > > Here's something for the interim: > > "There is only the present moment." Anyone who doesn't love that > statement has never understood it. ------- N: It all comes down to understanding what paramattha dhammas are, as different from pa~n~natti. Not knowing the difference is perhaps the reason that kamma and vipaaka are misunderstood. People think of a whole situation when talking about vipaaka and then problems arise. Why are innocent victims being murdered? I can understand that this must be a problem to some. However, if we understand that all of us have committed akusala kamma in past lives and that these produce results sooner or later it may be clearer that being in the cycle is dukkha. Whatever happens, it is conditioned. Hard to accept, but true. -------- Nina. #101426 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:01 am Subject: Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. szmicio Dear Sarah, I enjoy A. Sujin's answers. Best wishes Lukas #101427 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lukas on unpleasant vipaaka. nilovg Dear Lukas, Did you have a lot of trouble because of the snow? Op 16-okt-2009, om 5:30 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > L: You say: "Let's not worry what we cannot develop, lets look at > what is available and helpful" > > This is true, but I think my problem is not just the words, I can > say to myself everything. That's not a problem, lets do this, dont > bother with that. But it doesnt change anything. Still deep > conditions to misery. ------ N: The teachings are available now, listening is possible, but we should not expect a sudden change of character. I quote more form the Perfections, Ch on the Perfection of Wisdom, there are reflections on dosa: < Listening to the Dhamma is most beneficial if we let ourselves be guided by the Dhamma and investigate our own citta. When we hear about a person’s death, it can remind us of the truth and to reflect upon ourselves. The person who died may have been full of attachment, he may have liked paintings, music, or other beautiful objects that were enticing. We should reflect upon our own cittas, and consider whether we are like the person who died. We can be reminded of momentary death, of the shortness of each moment of citta that arises and falls away immediately. If we have a great deal of attachment, if we cling to possessions, we should remember that when visible object appears through the eyes, attachment arises just on account of what we see at a given moment; when a beautiful sound appears through the ears, attachment arises just on account of what we hear. When a delicious odour appears only for an extremely short moment, it conditions attachment to that odour. It is the same with flavour and tangible object. We can see in our daily life that even though rúpa arises and falls away very rapidly, there is still attachment to that rúpa which lasts for such a short moment. Attachment to sense objects is bound to arise so long as paññå has not been further developed. When we notice a person who is full of dosa, we should reflect upon our own citta, we should consider whether we are often angry, or whether we are irritated and disturbed time and again, or whether we are vengeful towards someone else. We should know that in truth that person is not to be found. We have met the person we are angry with only during one life, and after this life is terminated he is no longer there. Should we be angry with him after he has passed away? So long as we see that person we may have angry thoughts about him or be irritated about him, but we should remember that he will not be for a long time in this world and depart for ever; from then on there will not be any longer this person. When we meet someone, we never know whether this is the last time that we see him and if we do not consider this we may treat him badly. Whereas, if we realize that this may be the last opportunity that we see him, it may condition the citta to be humble and gentle, we can have kindness and compassion. > ****** Nina. #101428 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:06 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Asjin's book. hantun1 Dear Nina, I am very glad that you find the explanations by Ashin Janakabhivamsa useful. > Nina: His explanations are very good, indicating that so many factors have to come together when a teacher signals a student to come near. What are the subjects in this book, is it about all the books of the Abhidhamma? Han: The book title in Burmese is "Sa"ngaha Bhaasaa .Tiikaa". The Contents of the book are the same as in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, i.e., the same nine chapters. But the explanation in each chapter is different from CMA. Many passages in the book are still difficult for me to understand fully. But I will be happy to refer to the book when you wish to know Ashin's point of view. Respectfully, Han #101429 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok hantun1 Dear Sarah, > 8. Yamaka. BB's comment on kamaavacarabhuumiya #101139 referring to the citta, not the plane. Yes, because 'vacara' means to move from eye to ear and so on- wandering amongst sense objects. Han: Understood, and accepted. -------------------- > Under Anusaya Yamaka, when refering to the last section, (in summary)"The Biases in the various 'Spheres of existence" (dhaatu-vaara), it is the 31 planes being referred to. Han: Now, it is confusing. In the Pali text for Ausaya Yamaka, there are seven chapters. 1. Uppatti.t.thaana vaara 2. Mahaa vaara 2.1 Anusaya vaara 2.2 Saanusaya vaara 3. Pajahana vaara 4. Pari~n~naa vaara 5. Pahiina vaara 6. Uppajjana vaara 7. Dhaatu vaara 7.1 Dhaatu pucchaa vaara 7.2 Dhaatu visajjanaa vaara In all these chapters, the words "kaama dhaatu", "ruupa dhaatu", "aruupa dhaatu" are used. Do you mean to say these three words represent the 31 planes of existence in chapter 7 and the planes of cittas in earlier chapters? Respectfully, Han #101430 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:23 pm Subject: Sad is Sorrow! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Sad Sorrow consumes the Dejected Mind! Sorrow and sadness is a burning of mind associated with loss of relatives, loss of job, social position, lover, spouse, and whatever favoured belonging. Where grief oppresses mind, sorrow has inner consuming as characteristic. Its function is to consume the mind completely, as if eating it up from inside. It is manifested as a constant gloomy sadness of a deprived depressed mind. It is suffering, because it is an intrinsic mental torment, where the mind with this melancholic state as its basis & source tortures itself even more! This sadness is part & parcel of the The 1st Noble Truth on Suffering... Sorrow is like a poisoned dart! That penetrates a being's heart; Setting up a consuming burning there, Like burning with a red-glowing spear; This state of mind brings future pain: Such as disease, and then ever again: Ageing and death, so one may thus tell Wherefore it is called pain as well... Have a nice day anyway! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Sad is Sorrow! #101431 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok sarahprocter... Dear Han, (Chew, Nina & all), Thanks for responding on this point: --- On Sat, 17/10/09, han tun wrote: > 8. Yamaka. BB's comment on kamaavacarabhuumiya #101139 referring to the citta, not the plane. Yes, because 'vacara' means to move from eye to ear and so on- wandering amongst sense objects. >Han: Understood, and accepted. ------------ -------- S: OK, here we had the Pali, so it was clear. .... >H: Under Anusaya Yamaka, when refering to the last section, (in summary)"The Biases in the various 'Spheres of existence" (dhaatu-vaara) , it is the 31 planes being referred to. ... S: I should say that all I had in front of me was a page I'd copied from Nyantiloka's Guide which referred there to "Spheres of existence", but with no further detail or the original text or Pali. So the comment was just that when we say "spheres of existence" it is referring to the 31 planes, but with your comments below, I think this may have been a poor/wrong translation on N's part. .... >Han: Now, it is confusing. In the Pali text for Ausaya Yamaka, there are seven chapters. 1. Uppatti.t.thaana vaara 2. Mahaa vaara 2.1 Anusaya vaara 2.2 Saanusaya vaara 3. Pajahana vaara 4. Pari~n~naa vaara 5. Pahiina vaara 6. Uppajjana vaara 7. Dhaatu vaara 7.1 Dhaatu pucchaa vaara 7.2 Dhaatu visajjanaa vaara >In all these chapters, the words "kaama dhaatu", "ruupa dhaatu", "aruupa dhaatu" are used. Do you mean to say these three words represent the 31 planes of existence in chapter 7 and the planes of cittas in earlier chapters? ... S: I agree,that doesn't seem to make sense. So, would you and Chew suggest they're all referring to cittas now and that the Guide notes indicating 'spheres' is wrong? One reason I didn't type it out was that I wasn't sure that the English summary was correct. I'm sorry, I didn't follow all the discussions on the texts closely, because it's so complicated. Thanks again for your interest. Metta Sarah p.s This afternoon is our last session with A.Sujin, so if anyone else has anything they'd like us to raise, please let me know asap. ========== #101432 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok hantun1 Dear Sarah (Chew), > S: I should say that all I had in front of me was a page I'd copied from Nyantiloka's Guide which referred there to "Spheres of existence", but with no further detail or the original text or Pali. So the comment was just that when we say "spheres of existence" it is referring to the 31 planes, but with your comments below, I think this may have been a poor/wrong translation on N's part. > S: I agree, that doesn't seem to make sense. So, would you and Chew suggest they're all referring to cittas now and that the Guide notes indicating 'spheres' is wrong? One reason I didn't type it out was that I wasn't sure that the English summary was correct. Han: As I have said, I have accepted the planes of cittas. (Chew may give his own idea.) I will continue to study it more. If I find anything different I will come back to you. Respectfully, Han #101433 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:21 pm Subject: Re: Hi I'm new to your group. jonoabb Hi Billy Welcome to the list from me, and thanks for the question. I'm sorry for the slow reply (hope you are still following ;-)) (101298) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "billybobby717" wrote: > > Hi I'm new to your group and I have a question. does the Buddha in the Tipataka tell his disciples not to take food from the hands of a woman? > Where would that be? Someone suggested that and it does'nt sound familiar to me! In addition to Nina's comments, I could add a couple of words. Although there is no rule of discipline to this effect, it is the practice in Thailand for monks *not* to accept things directly from the hands of a woman. Instead, the thing being offered is placed on, for example, a table (usually onto a piece of cloth on the table being held by the monk) from where it will be picked up by the monk. Perhaps it is this practice that was being referred to. Jon #101434 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks jonoabb Dear Ven Dhammanando (101327) > I'm currently on the move -- travelling around Thailand saying my goodbyes before moving to Denmark. So, being separated from my library and with only irregular internet access, I can't help with any textual references. I can only say that Ven. Thanissaro's explanation agrees with what I've heard from every other Vinaya teacher, while I.B. Horner's seems quite untenable. > > That's not to say one can show Horner's reading to be in error on the basis of the text's phrasing, for in fact patta.m in the sentence "licchavissa patta.m nikkujjatu" could grammatically refer to either the monk's bowl or the layman's bowl, depending on whether one reads licchavissa as a dative ("to the Licchavii") or a genitive ("of the Licchavii"). I had a quick look at the Thai translation, which supports the generally held view you mention above (and Ven Thanissaro's explanation), and suggests that the Horner translation is not correct. The Thai expression "kwaam baat" is used, which I think you will be familiar with. The reading given in Thai is that where the circumstances apply the Sangha should "kwaam baat" the lay-follower. However, this is then explained as not associating with the Sangha, suggesting perhaps that the reference to turning over the bowl is intended to be metaphoric only. Wishing you the best with your move. With respect Jon #101435 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:28 pm Subject: Re: Faculties, induvidials, modes of progress jonoabb Hi Alex (and Connie) (101367) > Alex: > > There are 4 types of paths: > > pleasant with quick acquisition > pleasant with slow acquisition > painful with quick acquisition > painful with slow acquisition > > Question: How does one know which one of those is most suitable? > > Answer: One who has attained will know which way it was & that will have been what suited the case. I agree absolutely with Connie here. This 4-fold classification is intended to be a retrospective one, viewed from after the event. In fact, I'm wondering if they are given as *paths* as such, or as ways of attainment or something like that. Would you mind giving the reference for the passage quoted in your post ("4 types of paths"). > Question: How does one know if one has: > keen, middle or blunt faculties? > > Answer: Start with your eyes. Which is the nearest heaven yours can see? I consider myself blind. Again I agree with Connie (and Nina's comments, too). Of course, wrong view and conceit do not allow an objective assessment of this. But for the reasons discussed, we don't need to concern ourselves with such an assessment. We can safely assume the answer is "blunt" ;-)) Jon #101436 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:31 pm Subject: Re: Some Questions jonoabb Hi Lukas 101253) > L: Actually "vineyya loke abhijjadomanassam" is mentioned by the Buddha himslef in Satipatthana section in Vibhanga. This is one instance mentioned by Buddha. Tattha katama vineya loke abhijjadomanassam - it means and what vineya loke abhijjadomanassam means? And Buddha having asked answers: that it is...(dont rememeber now), but for sure its not like the strict by removing only, its more like dosa and lobha are not present. Thanks very much for coming in here. If you happen to come across the Vibhanga passage, I'd be interested to see it. Thanks. Jon #101437 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:49 pm Subject: Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. jonoabb Hi Azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > hallo Scott and others, > > I like what you have written here, Scott. > I found another in my little book of scribblings: > > A person may plunder as he will. > when others plunder in return, He, plundered, plunders them again. > The fool believes he is in luck as long as evil does not ripen; > But when it does the fool fares ill. > The slayer gets himself a slayer, > The victor finds a conqueror, > The abuser gets himself abused, > The persecutor persecuted. > The wheels of deeds turns round again, and makes the plundered > plunderers. S.N. 3:14-15 Thanks for the little verse, which I enjoyed. However, I was puzzled as to how the wheel of deeds could make a plundered person a plunderer. So I checked the ati on-line version, and found the following: ***************** A man may plunder as long as it serves his ends, but when others are plundered, he who has plundered gets plundered in turn. A fool thinks, 'Now's my chance,' as long as his evil has yet to ripen. But when it ripens, the fool falls into pain. Killing, you gain your killer. Conquering, you gain one who will conquer you; insulting, insult; harassing, harassment. And so, through the cycle of action, he who has plundered gets plundered in turn. ***************** One or other is correct, and one or other is not! ;-)) Jon #101438 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, Continuing with brief notes from K.Sujins's responses: --- On Thu, 8/10/09, Lukas wrote: >19. What's with mana, the pride or the Self polishing? I think it may be my problem. That's problem all the time. And only sometimes it's not. .... S: When there's a problem, it's a problem! Whenever akusala arises... ... 20. I understand 4 Noble Truths, but when I am trying to do this and that I feel like I am going not this way. .... S: Because "I am" .... >21. I feel a lot of dosa when i say or write somethin to other people. ... S: Who's not like that at all? .... >22. I practiced a lot before. A lot of sitting meditation. a lot of walking meditation. A lot of seclusions. But I only rested with awarness, when I forgot this whole technics. I rest with awarness, going throught park. I dont belive you, what you said Acharn, I know your right. .... S: Any "but...?" ... >23. Is there anything in Texts about person that has quarrelling type of personality? .... S: Any type, all types today! Situations in the world today. .... ------------ --------- -------- >The last question, most recent, is about ruupa that is intimation. ------------ --------- --- >24. There are two ruupas of intimation: body intimation and speech intimation >body intimation is the ruupa of what we conventionaly call gestures and movements. When walking there is this kind of ruupa that performs it's function ... S: Arising with citta and falling away with citta. Like lifting up one's hand now, with or without bodily intimation. ... >and also there is ruupa of speech intimation, that performs function of speaking. >But where is the ruupa of smile? There is ruupa that makes smile to be 'intimated'. Where is this ruupa in 28 ruupas? ... S: Same as above - rupas arising and falling away with the citta, depending on the intention when one smiles as to whether there is bodily intimation rupa. .... >We used to think, that we can smile, but that is only citta that smiles and ruupas. We dont have control over our smile and the same we dont have control over 'smile intimation', they are conditioned. >when there is awarness the 'smile' can be an object, then no world. .... S: General comments: Thinking and thinking, but not considering realities as realities. It can seem that we're interested in the Dhamma, but when there is no usefulness, they are the "cheating dhammas", taking us further away from the understanding of reality as anatta. This can be for the whole life, next life, listening, studying texts, Pali and so on, again and again. It cheats if it seems good and valuable but is not useful. Many thanks again, Lukas, for all your contributions which everyone appreciated. **** Metta Sarah ======= #101439 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:15 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok szmicio Dear Han, I am amazed. > Suppose the teacher moves his hand signaling the student to come to him, the student immediately knows that the teacher wants him to come by kaayavi~n~natti of the teacher. Now, what actually makes the student know that? Is it due to (1) citta of the teacher, or (2) cittaja-ruupa of the teacher, or (3) just the movement of the hand of the teacher, or (4) special suggestion or intimation by the teacher? [This last one is difficult to translate.] > > (1) If it were due to citta alone, if the teacher remains quietly and motionless, the teacher may have any amount of citta that wills the student to come, but the student will not know. > > (2) If it were due to cittaja-ruupas alone, if the teacher remains quietly and motionless, there may be millions or trillions of cittaja-ruupas that arise and fall away in the teacher, but the student will not know. > > (3) If it were due to just the movements of the hand, if the teacher were asleep and moves his hand during his sleep, the student will not know. > > (4) There are vaayo dhaatu in the cittaja-ruupas of the moving hand that signals the student, and that vaayo dhaatu makes the special suggestion or intimation that makes the student know that the teacher wants him to come. That special quality of vaayo dhaatu in the cittaja-ruupa of the signalling hand is what constitutes kaayavi~n~natti. Here, Sayadaw asks the reader to refer to Atthasaali.nii for more details. L: Wow, such great accuracy. It's a great opportunity to listen in detail way. Han, what's the book name? Can you quote more? Are those Buddha's words? Best wishes Lukas #101440 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:58 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok hantun1 Dear Lukas, > Lukas: Dear Han, I am amazed. L: Wow, such great accuracy. It's a great opportunity to listen in detail way. Han, what's the book name? Can you quote more? Are those Buddha's words? -------------------- Han: The book title in Burmese is "Sa"ngaha Bhaasaa .Tiikaa". The Contents of the book are the same as in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, i.e., the same nine chapters. Although the main points in each chapter are the same as in CMA, the explanation is more detailed. I do not think they are the Buddha's words. Maybe, that’s why it is called ".tiikaa". Many passages in the book are still difficult for me to understand fully. But I will be happy to refer to the book [to the extent my understanding permits] whenever there is an opportunity. Kind regards, Han #101441 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:25 am Subject: Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. szmicio Dear Sarah, Thanks for transcribing so fast. The answers helped me much. I doubt recently whether I am going in good direction. I liked this "no expectations!!!" > 20. I understand 4 Noble Truths, but when I am trying to do this and that I feel like I am going not this way. > .... > S: Because "I am" > .... > >21. I feel a lot of dosa when i say or write somethin to other people. > ... > S: Who's not like that at all? > .... > >22. I practiced a lot before. A lot of sitting meditation. a lot of walking meditation. A lot of seclusions. But I only rested with awarness, when I forgot this whole technics. I rest with awarness, going throught park. I dont belive you, what you said Acharn, I know your right. > .... > S: Any "but...?" > ... > >23. Is there anything in Texts about person that has quarrelling type of personality? > .... > S: Any type, all types today! Situations in the world today. > .... > ------------ --------- -------- > >The last question, most recent, is about ruupa that is intimation. > > ------------ --------- --- > >24. There are two ruupas of intimation: > body intimation and speech intimation > > >body intimation is the ruupa of what we conventionaly call gestures and movements. When walking there is this kind of ruupa that performs it's function > ... > S: Arising with citta and falling away with citta. Like lifting up one's hand now, with or without bodily intimation. > ... > >and also there is ruupa of speech intimation, that performs function of speaking. > >But where is the ruupa of smile? There is ruupa that makes smile to be 'intimated'. Where is this ruupa in 28 ruupas? > ... > S: Same as above - rupas arising and falling away with the citta, depending on the intention when one smiles as to whether there is bodily intimation rupa. > .... -------------------- L: So the ruupa of smile is ruupa of bodily intimation? > >We used to think, that we can smile, but that is only citta that smiles and ruupas. > We dont have control over our smile and the same we dont have control over 'smile intimation', they are conditioned. > > >when there is awarness the 'smile' can be an object, then no world. > .... > S: General comments: Thinking and thinking, but not considering realities as realities. It can seem that we're interested in the Dhamma, but when there is no usefulness, they are the "cheating dhammas", taking us further away from the understanding of reality as anatta. This can be for the whole life, next life, listening, studying texts, Pali and so on, again and again. It cheats if it seems good and valuable but is not useful. ------------------------- L: See Sarah, so I am not going in the right way. This thinking leads me astray all the time. I prefer to think instead of examine realities. Best wishes Lukas #101442 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Sat, 17/10/09, Lukas wrote: > Thanks for transcribing so fast. The answers helped me much. I doubt recently whether I am going in good direction. .... S: Not "I"......different cittas, different moments... .... >I liked this "no expectations! !!" .... S: Yes, helpful for us all, not just you! .... >L: So the ruupa of smile is ruupa of bodily intimation? .... S: Just like for any other bodily movement, depending on the intention. ... >L: See Sarah, so I am not going in the right way. This thinking leads me astray all the time. I prefer to think instead of examine realities. ... S: Again, not "You" or "I" going any way, but different cittas at different moments. Thinking leads us all astray, latching onto different numitta anupyanjanna (signs and details), rather than understanding the present realities. I found it very helpful too. Thank you for your sincere qus. Just back from our last session. Hong Kong tomorrow.... Just different realities to be known now, no matter what we do.... never mind about the next moment....no "I" in any of it. I'm glad to hear you sounding better now....Dhamma's the best medicine, if there's understanding now. Metta Sarah ====== #101443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:45 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Intimation. Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok nilovg Dear Lukas and Han, Op 17-okt-2009, om 7:15 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > (4) There are vaayo dhaatu in the cittaja-ruupas of the moving hand > that signals the student, and that vaayo dhaatu makes the special > suggestion or intimation that makes the student know that the > teacher wants him to come. That special quality of vaayo dhaatu in > the cittaja-ruupa of the signalling hand is what constitutes > kaayavi~n~natti. -------- N: Asjin rightly explains about the special role of vaayo dhaatu, but he also pointed out that there are other factors like citta, but not citta alone without ruupa. He explains step by step. At the same time it is good that Kh Sujin stresses that intimation depends on the citta. We have to take into account several factors. ------ Nina. #101444 From: "philofillet" Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:07 am Subject: How to reduce anger (for Lukas) Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. philofillet Hi Lukas I have to apologize and withdraw my offer to post a series to you. I have found myself the last couple of days thinking about what to write - even while I was commuting by bike on busy roads, very dangerous - and the phenomenon of thinking about Dhamma points in daily life instead of paying attention to the surroundings is something I remember from the old days, very unwelcome! And dangerous.These days I favour an approach to Dhamma that doesn't involve much of that kind of thinking, and I need to stick to it. (There is a time for thinking about, reflecting on Dhamma, of course.) So please forgive me! Writing a series on establishing of sila is just so interesting. Too interesting.... > Maybe I should put off all daily life matters and try to seclude myself, like you do? But I think it would be very hard to me. > > Maybe you can support me? > > It would be very hard to me to seclude. I only "seclude" myself, such as it is, early in the morning, when I meditate and study Dhammapada before my wife wakes up. I think periods like that every morning are very beneficial, condition more "resilience to objects," less mindless consumption later in the day. I hope you don't deprive yourself of that kind of daily refuge out of the misguided belief that is all about self therefore wrong and so on. It is very important to establish mindfulness in the body to whatever degree one is able, there is no going wrong there, it is good and contributes to preventing transgression. I think the meditation I do is "incorrect" from the point of the view of the teaching of meditation techniques in Visudhimaggha, I can see that, but it helps me to be less harmful to myself and others, and that is all I care about for now. Please treat yourself with kindness and try some of the meditation techniques you come across elsewhere, when looking around. You will see what I mean. As a substitute for what I promised to write, may I recommend this excellent series of talks from Bhikkhu Bodhi on Majjima Nikaya?Be warned that the way he explains the Dhamma is radically different from Acharn Sujin, different to the point that the two approaches are incompatible. One assumes that since Bhikkhu Bodhi is so famous in the Theravada world, and since he has such a central position in translating, that he most know better, that hemust be correct and A. S must be wrong. They can't both be right, simply not possible as you'll see if you listen. But I still think it is possible that A.S is right in what she says, it's good you have a chance to listen to her. But keep listening elsewhere, keep your mind open, as it does seem to be, and ask yourself why the things she says are not said elsewhere... Anyways, enjoy the talks, and best of luck! Sorry I can't be more generous... http://www.bodhimonastery.net/bm/about-buddhism/15-a-systematic-study-of-the-maj\ jhima-nikaya.html?start=1 Metta, Phil #101445 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lukas on unpleasant vipaaka. nilovg Dear Lukas, You write: Kh S: Thinking and thinking, but not considering realities as realities. It can seem that we're interested in the Dhamma, but when there is no usefulness, they are the "cheating dhammas", taking us further away from the understanding of reality as anatta. This can be for the whole life, next life, listening, studying texts, Pali and so on, again and again. It cheats if it seems good and valuable but is not useful. ------------------------- L: See Sarah, so I am not going in the right way. This thinking leads me astray all the time. I prefer to think instead of examine realities. ------- N: Cheating dhammas, vancaka dhammas there is a whole text about this on Rob K's forum, and see also messages of dsg: < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3543> 'These arise in a mind that has developed a certain disliking towards akusalas. The akusala dhammas disguise themselves according to the mind's 'tendency' or mentality' I quote: <4. viriyarambhamukhena uddhaccang vangcethi One over-tries to calm the mind, over-tries to understand things he thinks that he's developing viriya, but instead he's cheated by uddhacca. 5. sikkhakamathamukhena kukkuccang vangcethi One who likes for moral restraint has the kusala - sikkhakamatha. But when one starts to worry about the things done, thinking whether they were allowed, not-allowed, etc., will develop the dvesha(dosa) rooted santhapa. Eventually kukkucca, mistaking it for sikkhakamatha.> read for vangceti: vanceti, the roman spelling is in the Sri Lanka way. What you are doing seems very noble but in fact you delude yourself, not knowing the cittas exactly. There are motives behind it which are not good, but one does not realise this. Lobha poses as kusala. --------- I quote more about the right kind of study from the Perfections, Ch on the Perfection of Wisdom: < Before we studied the Dhamma we had no understanding of the realities appearing through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-door. We had a great deal of ignorance. By listening to the Dhamma we can come to know that realities appear each with their own characteristic and that we should study these. We should not merely study them in theory, or merely listen to the explanation about them without carefully considering their true nature. We should remember that at this very moment realities are appearing and that the true characteristics of those dhammas which arise and fall away should be penetrated. Hence we can be reminded that we should listen and thoroughly consider the Dhamma, so that understanding is accumulated. Understanding is a condition for being aware diligently of the characteristics of the dhammas appearing at this moment. If we know that we still have a great deal of ignorance, moha, and that this should be eradicated, we will not be neglectful, but continue to listen to the Dhamma and develop each kind of kusala.> Nina. #101446 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaatu. Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok nilovg Dear Han, you have quoted all the different chapters, so in each of these chapters we have to search for the meaning of dhaatu in that context. When four dhaatus are mentioned we know that it refers to the four planes (bhuumi) of citta: kamaavacara, ruupajhaana, aruupajhaana and the 'unincluded' , namely lokuttara. Nina. Op 17-okt-2009, om 3:23 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: As I have said, I have accepted the planes of cittas. > (Chew may give his own idea.) > I will continue to study it more. #101447 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:14 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Intimation. Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok hantun1 Dear Nina and Lukas, > Nina: Asjin rightly explains about the special role of vaayo dhaatu, but he also pointed out that there are other factors like citta, but not citta alone without ruupa. He explains step by step. At the same time it is good that Kh Sujin stresses that intimation depends on the citta. We have to take into account several factors. -------------------- Han: Kh Sujin is right in stressing that intimation depends on the citta. It is a long explanation in the book I am referring to. What I had posted was only the second half of the explanations. The first half includes the following explanations. In the case of the teacher signaling to his student to come near, (1) first, there arise the cittas in the teacher wishing the student to come. (2) With the arising of these cittas, the cittaja-ruupas immediately arise. Actually, the cittaja-ruupas arise all over the body but in the signaling hand the vayo dhaatu is stronger than other great elements. And that vayo dhaatu has the special quality. That special quality of vayo dhaatu is the "vi~n~natti". In the winking of an eye, one hundred thousand crores (one crore is ten million) of cittas arise. Many of these cittas can condition the arising of cittaja-kalaapas with very strong vayo dhaatu, which has the special quality of vi~n~natti. These then move the hand. When moving the hand the movement is not like the movement of tree branches in the wind. The movement of the hand has to follow the will of the cittas that wish the student to come. Like a boat-man, paddling the oar from the back of the boat, steers the boat to the direction he wishes, the cittas also direct the vayo dhaatu and the vi~n~natti to move the hand accordingly. [Sayadaw wrote some scholars also compare this with a bullock-cart with seven pairs of bullocks, but Sayadaw did not elaborate on this.] Then, Sayadaw analyzed each factor involved. That was the portion that I had posted in my last message. Respectfully, Han #101448 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaatu. Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok hantun1 Dear Nina (Sarah), > Nina: you have quoted all the different chapters, so in each of these chapters we have to search for the meaning of dhaatu in that context. Han: I was only clarifying with Sarah what she meant. I cannot even understand the first one or two pages of the Anusaya Yamaka, let alone searching for the meaning in 233 pages of the Pali text. ------------------- > Nina: When four dhaatus are mentioned we know that it refers to the four planes (bhuumi) of citta: kamaavacara, ruupajhaana, aruupajhaana and the 'unincluded', namely lokuttara. Han: I have already accepted that the three dhaatus (kaama dhaatu, ruupa dhaatu, aruupa dhaatu) represent the planes of cittas. I do not know that "four" dhaatus are mentioned in Anusaya Yamaka. Respectfully, Han #101449 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:37 am Subject: Hearing harsh words sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Just before the discussion today, I read out a quote I'd heard recently on an old tape to some friends who'd just mentioned some harsh words they'd been hearing. One of them asked me to type it out: KS: "When someone speaks in a very irritated (manner), you think of yourself first. (You ask) why that person speaks to you like that. You consider yourself very, very important, that's why it conditions unpleasant feeling. But if that person speaks the same words to the others, maybe you don't mind at all. But when it comes to you, it hurts very much because you cling very much to yourself..... If you are patient, no one can hurt you.....Patience, compassion and sympathy, kusala citta - you don't blame the others." Metta Sarah "If you're going to speak harsh words and patience arises, you'll stop. It's not you." ================ #101450 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Some brief notes from the discussions on various topics relating to DSG posts <4>: [Please note: these are not quotes in the points, just some of my very rough notes, often from more than one session.] 1. Monks - 2 responsibilities only- a) Study, (including teaching and helping others) b) Developing Right Understanding. All problems come from cittas. Even monks have problems because of a lack of understanding. Problems means akusala. They have to learn the Teachings, not just follow the Vinaya without learning the Teachings. Just following without understanding is of no use. Like moving with downcast eyes may be "fake" if no wise attention. In the old days, just for study and developing understanding. 2. Kamma and vipaka, (Alberto #98503 and other posts) (gets pretty subtle, so ignore at these points if you prefer!) a) 2 kinds of kamma: a) sahajata kamma referring to the cetana arising with each citta, and b) nanakkhanika kamma referring to the cetana arising with the javana cittas only. Nanakkhanika kamma paccaya, only when there's a result through mano, vaci or kaya dvara. In the 5 sense-door processes, inc. body-door process, the javana cittas are mano kamma, but not kamma patha. The mano kamma is accumulated, conditioned by natural decisive support condition. In the mind-door processes, whenever the javanas are not vaci- or kaya kamma, they are mano kamma. It depends on the intentions, speech and actions as to whether it is kamma patha. When it is kaya kamma, must be kaya vinnatti, when vaci kamma, must be vaci vinnatti. An animal killing another animal would be an example of kaya kamma through kaya dvara. When the planning is stronger, it is mano kamma, rather than kaya kamma, even if it is through kaya dvara. Ordering someone to kill would be mano kama, leading to kayo kamma through vaci dvara!! Stepping on a mosquito - kaya kamma. Laying a trap - mano kamma. It must be either mano-, kaya- or vaci-kamma, depending. Kamma-patha vs supporting kamma. Killing is kamma patha. Rejoicing in killing is a supporting kamma. b)Wrong views are only akusala kamma patha when they lead to deeds and speech, not just the views by themselves. Rob K gave many examples of strong wrong view, but each time it was stressed that the views on their own without deeds through speech or body were not akusala kamma patha as I recall. c)Suttas about being born rich, beautiful or the opposite. Vipaka just refers to moments of seeing, hearing or touching. Being rich - just referring to moments of vipaka. Being beautiful - just referring to rupas conditioned by kamma. Being born human but deaf - a result of kusala kamma to be born human, but akusala kamma to be born deaf. This is "supporting" kamma, affecting the results of the kamma patha. Kamma which results in patisandhi (birth) is supported by many other kinds of kamma. This is why we're all different. 3. 8 worldly conditions, beginning with praise and blame. These include thinking which conditions pleasure or sorrow. For the worldling, in the case of praise or blame, thre is the hearing of sounds (which may be kusala or akusala vipaka hearing pleasant or unpleasant sounds), followed by kusala or akusala cittas which understand the meaning of those sounds, followed by further kusala or akusala cittas which understand and respond to the praise or blame. The Buddha understood the words, the praise or blame, but was not affected by them. The sounds have the same meanings, but it depends on the cittas which think about them as to whether there is any attachment or aversion. If the words are said in a foreign language and we don't understand them, no praise or blame. Kamma conditions the voice, so even when blame is being spoken, it may be kusala kamma to hear the sounds. 4. The Sangiti quote about one living in darkness bound for darkness - just an example given. 5. Vipassana nanas accompanied by upacara samadhi. Lokuttara cittas by appana samadhi. 6. Studying and following the Dhamma for oneself (attaaadhipateyya), for the sake of the world (lokaadhipateyya) or for the sake of Dhamma (dhammaadhipateyya)? See #96730 (Nina). Developing for the sake of Dhamma is right dhamma, just to understand about realities. Very deep:-). and finally, a quote: "It seems that we live a long time, but when time comes, it's like a flash of light. It seems there are many important events, but it's just thinking about realities with ignorance."* **** Metta Sarah p.s I still have one or two sets more, but it'll have to wait til we're back in H.K. Apologies for any confusion. Qus and comments (and disagreements) welcome! * Azita, you may like to pass that one on to Jill sometime. =========== #101451 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaatu. Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok nilovg Dear Han, Op 17-okt-2009, om 13:29 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: I have already accepted that the three dhaatus (kaama dhaatu, > ruupa dhaatu, aruupa dhaatu) represent the planes of cittas. I do > not know that "four" dhaatus are mentioned in Anusaya Yamaka. ------ N: You are right, and I think we shall come across this. Nina. #101452 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hearing harsh words nilovg Dear Sarah, I am very glad someone asked you to type this out. Excellent reminder. Nina. Op 17-okt-2009, om 14:37 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > KS: "When someone speaks in a very irritated (manner), you think of > yourself first. (You ask) why that person speaks to you like that. > You consider yourself very, very important, that's why it > conditions unpleasant feeling. But if that person speaks the same > words to the others, maybe you don't mind at all. But when it comes > to you, it hurts very much because you cling very much to > yourself..... If you are patient, no one can hurt you.....Patience, > compassion and sympathy, kusala citta - you don't blame the others." #101453 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you for the series. Helpful points. Especially manokamma etc. Op 17-okt-2009, om 15:30 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > It seems there are many important events, but it's just thinking > about realities with ignorance ------- N: Good to think over. I found Lodewijk's book presentation such a big happening, all those people, saying nice things. But what was I thinking? Ignorance and clinging. Also some moments I was thinking of others' wellbeing, but compared to the numerous moments of akusala that was very little. Nina. #101454 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Lukas on unpleasant vipaaka. szmicio Dear Nina, You wrote: > I quote more about the right kind of study from the Perfections, Ch > on the Perfection of Wisdom: > > < Before we studied the Dhamma we had no understanding of the > realities appearing through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, > the bodysense and the mind-door. We had a great deal of ignorance. By > listening to the Dhamma we can come to know that realities appear > each with their own characteristic and that we should study these. We > should not merely study them in theory, or merely listen to the > explanation about them without carefully considering their true > nature. We should remember that at this very moment realities are > appearing and that the true characteristics of those dhammas which > arise and fall away should be penetrated. Hence we can be reminded > that we should listen and thoroughly consider the Dhamma, so that > understanding is accumulated. Understanding is a condition for being > aware diligently of the characteristics of the dhammas appearing at > this moment. If we know that we still have a great deal of ignorance, > moha, and that this should be eradicated, we will not be neglectful, > but continue to listen to the Dhamma and develop each kind of kusala.> L: That's very helpful. The characteristic, now. But isnt it like that considering Dhamma and thinking on Dhamma is the development of pariyatti? even its akusala thinking? I have a lot of ideas about Dhamma, like I verified in my life that there is no Self in some extent. like I am travelling, i cant choose, just different moments but i dont know the characteristic. isnt it paryiatti in such moments? I have this problem with thinking about pasts moments of understanding. usually with mana i reckon so. p.s I expecially like Acharn's "cheating dhammas" and no expectations. especially no expectations said me that I am involved in trying to achive this or that. now I am OK. I see my siila tries ;> Best wishes Lukas #101455 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:53 am Subject: catasso patipadati - 4 ways of progress truth_aerator > (101367) > > Alex: > > > > There are 4 types of paths: > > > > pleasant with quick acquisition > > pleasant with slow acquisition > > painful with quick acquisition > > painful with slow acquisition > > > I agree absolutely with Connie here. This 4-fold classification is intended to be a retrospective one, viewed from after the event. In fact, I'm wondering if they are given as *paths* as such, or as ways of attainment or something like that. Would you mind giving the reference for the passage quoted in your post ("4 types of paths"). > Hi Jon, Nina, all, They are called Dukkhapatipada dandhabhinna, dukkhapatipada khippabhinna, sukhapatipada dandhabhinna, sukhapatipada khippabhinna. Ima kho bhikkhave catasso patipadati. Patipada = line of conduct; mode of progress. With metta, Alex #101457 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:55 pm Subject: What is kaya / citta viveka? Citta Viveka = JHANAS truth_aerator Dear Nina, Sarah, Jon, all, MahaNiddesa Pali tells us as it is: Katamo kayaviveko? Idha bhikkhu vivittam senasanam bhajati arannam rukkhamulam pabbatam kandaram giriguham susanam vanapattham abbhokasam palalapunjam. Kayena vivitto viharati. So eko gacchati, eko titthati, eko nisidati, eko seyyam kappeti, eko gamam pindaya pavisati, eko patikkamati, eko raho nisidati, eko cankamam adhitthati, eko carati viharati iriyati vattati paleti yapeti yapeti. Ayam kayaviveko. The above talks about a monk who lives physically alone (eko) in the solitary place, the forest (aranna), under root of the trees (rukkhamula), who walks for alms alone, who SITS ALONE, who is fixing walking alone (eko cankamam adhitthati) , who abides practicing alone… etc etc Katamo cittaviveko? Pathamam jhanam samapannassa nivaranehi cittam vivittam hoti… What is seclusion of mind? From being engaged in First Jhana , the mind is secluded from hindrances… [the higher Jhanas are mental seclusion from lower Jhana factors] - MahaNiddesa PTS 1.28 With metta, Alex #101458 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:26 pm Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 2, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Generally one is inclined to be absorbed in thinking about people one saw or words one heard; one never paid attention to seeing itself or hearing itself. One may even doubt whether it is useful to do so. Seeing and hearing themselves are neither wholesome nor unwholesome, but immediately after seeing and hearing all kinds of defilements are bound to arise. All the different moments of life should be investigated thoroughly, so that there can be elimination of delusion about them. There are different degrees of understanding realities. Thinking about realities and about their impermanence is theoretical understanding and this is not the realization of the true nature of realities. Theoretical understanding, however, can be the foundation for direct understanding of the realities which appear in daily life. As we study the Buddhist scriptures we will learn about the realities which are to be understood. There are three parts or “baskets” of the Buddha’s teachings: the Vinaya, the Suttanta or Discourses and the Abhidhamma or “higher teachings”. The Vinaya is the “Book of Discipline” for the monks. The Suttanta are discourses of the Buddha held at different places to different people. The Abhidhamma is a detailed exposition of all mental phenomena and physical phenomena and also of their conditioning factors and their different ways of conditional relations. Although these three parts of the teachings are different in form, they point to the same goal: the eradication of defilements through the direct realization of the truth. When one studies the different realities which are explained in detail in the Abhidhamma, the goal should not be forgotten: the development of direct understanding of realities when they appear. There is also Abhidhamma in the suttas. The sutta about the “All” I quoted above is an example of this. The deep meaning of the suttas cannot be understood without a basic study of the Abhidhamma. The field of the Abhidhamma is immense and we cannot grasp the whole contents. However, when one begins to study it, at least in part, one will see that it can be of great assistance for the understanding of our life. ****** Nina. #101459 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:35 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (60) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 7. Ruupas from different Factors (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ---------------------------------- The "Atthasaalinii" also states that these three qualities "do not abandon each other". When one of them arises, the others have to arise as well. They never arise without the eight inseparable ruupas. Although the qualities of lightness, plasticity and wieldiness arise together, they are different from each other. The "Atthasaalinii" (in the same section) explains their differences. Buoyancy is non-sluggishness and it is like the quick movement of one free from ailment. Plasticity is plasticity of objects like well-pounded leather, and it is distinguished by tractability. Wieldiness is wieldiness of objects like well-polished gold and it is distinguished by suitableness for all bodily actions. When one is sick, the elements of the body are disturbed, and the body is sluggish, stiff and without adaptability. We read in the "Visuddhimagga" (VIII, 28) about the disturbance of the elements: "... But with the disturbance of the earth element even a strong man’s life can be terminated if his body becomes rigid, or with the disturbance of one of the elements beginning with water if his body becomes flaccid and putrifies with a flux of the bowels, etc., or if he is consumed by a bad fever, or if he suffers a severing of his limb-joint ligatures." When one is healthy, there are conditions for lightness, plasticity and wieldiness of body. The "Atthasaalinii" states that these three qualities are not produced by kamma, but that they are produced by citta, temperature or nutrition. This Commentary states (in the same section, 327): "... Thus ascetics say, 'Today we have agreeable food... today we have suitable weather... today our mind is one-pointed, our body is light, plastic and wieldy.'" When we have suitable food and the temperature is right we may notice that we are healthy, that the body is not rigid and that it can move in a supple way. Not only food and temperature, also kusala citta can influence our physical condition. When we apply ourselves to mental development it can condition suppleness of the body. Thus we can verify in our daily life what is taught in the Abhidhamma. ------------------------------ Chapter 7. Ruupas from different Factors (to be continued) With metta, Han #101460 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:30 am Subject: Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, pa moellerdieter Dear Nina, although you mentioned that you will not pursue the issue any further , please allow one more question : 'As to the second case, a person who lives in darkness but who is bound for light, he lives in the same unfavorable circumstances but he performs kusala kamma. He will have a happy rebirth' are you quoting the commentary? I suspect there is a misunderstanding that 'the same unfavorable circumstances ' are your words , giving the impression the author may have considered the untouchables 'inherently doomed ' because the second case don't apply to them. With Metta Dieter #101461 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:43 pm Subject: Dependent Origination bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Dependent Origination Creates the World! The Blessed Buddha once asked his disciples: And what is dependent origination, bhikkhus? With birth as condition, bhikkhus, ageing and death emerges...! Whether Perfect Ones arise or do not arise, there remains that element, that particular relatedness of states, that fixed causal linking of states, that very specific conditionality. The Perfect One indeed first discovers it, penetrates to it. Having discovered it, penetrated to it, he announces it, teaches it, makes it known, establishes, exposes, expounds and explains it: "See", he says, "With birth as condition, there will be ageing and death". With becoming as condition, there is birth... With clinging as condition, there will be becoming... With craving as condition, clinging develops... With feeling as condition, craving arises... With contact as condition, feeling springs up... With the 6 senses as condition, contact appears... With name-&-form as condition, the 6 senses crop up... With consciousness as condition, name-&-form is born... With mental constructions as condition, there is consciousness ... With ignorance as condition, bhikkhus, there are mental constructions.... Whether Perfect Ones arise or do not arise, there yet remains that element, that same relatedness of states, that fixed regular causal linking of states, that very specific conditionality. The Perfect One indeed first discovers it, penetrates to it. Having discovered it, penetrated to it, he announces it, teaches it, makes it known, establishes, exposes, expounds and explains it: "See", he says, "With ignorance as condition, there are mental constructions". So that causal sequence is an absolute reality, since in all past and all future universes it is never unreal, never otherwise, but the same specific conditionality: This 12 fold principle called dependent origination. (SN II, 25f). Commentary: Because particular states are produced only by particular specific conditions, neither less nor more, it is called the reality, exactly so, such and thus only is it! Once the conditions have met and combined, then there is never lack of producing the states, that they generate even for an instant! Therefore is this fundamental called never unreal! Because there never arises a state caused by another states conditions, this doctrine is called never otherwise... Because this sequence of emergence has exact unambiguous causes, it is called specific conditionality. Vism 518 <..> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #101462 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? ptaus1 Hi John, Thanks for asking about this in Bangkok and explaining here. > I'm afraid the picture is not all that much clearer to me now than it was before I got here ;-)) pt: That's okay, I learned a lot from the discussion so far. > The sutta is referring to conduct by the actor that is akusala kamma patha. It's not possible to say that it's one or other of the 10 akusala kamma patha in particular. pt: Thanks - I was hoping the sutta is about kamma patha and not pariyutthana levels of dosa, moha and lobha. > It's not a matter of all actors being persons who commit akusala kamma patha. As always, it depends on the intention involved. Ordinary people can also have a similar intention. For example, they may conduct themselves so as to influence another person's views or perception. pt: Makes sense. > No clear view was expressed on this question. For what it's worth, my own thoughts are that the heedlessness relates to ultimate realties. The Pali term is 'pamaada', which is the term used elsewhere in the texts for such kind of heedlessness. Coupled with the term "intoxicated" it seems to be referring to a significant level of akusala. pt: Thanks for this. > =============== > > - how is acting different from all other occupations which also draw attention to conventional matters, not ultimate realities? > =============== > > The problem is not that it draws attention to conventional matters (all kinds of conduct do that;-)). The conduct goes further than that; as the sutta makes clear, the conduct is conduct which incites people having lobha, dosa and moha to even stronger lobha, dosa and moha. pt: I hear what you're saying - you've explained this a few times already, so I guess I'm just not able to see your point at this time. I mean, to me it seems everything has the potential to incite stronger lobha, dosa and moha, depending on the "recipient's" anusaya so to speak. Nevertheless, I'll keep considering what you've said, maybe it'll start making sense at some point in the future. Thanks very much for the discussion so far. Best wishes pt #101463 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:04 am Subject: Re: catasso patipadati - 4 ways of progress jonoabb Hi Alex (101455) > They are called > > Dukkhapatipada dandhabhinna, dukkhapatipada khippabhinna, sukhapatipada dandhabhinna, sukhapatipada khippabhinna. Ima kho bhikkhave catasso patipadati. > > Patipada = line of conduct; mode of progress. > =============== These 4 modes of progress can be found in A IV, 162 (see p. 112 of the Bhikkhu Bodhi anthology NDB for his translation). In each of the 4 modes of progress described in the sutta, there is mention of the attainment of "the immediacy condition for the destruction of the taints" (Pali: aanantariyam). This expression is explained in the commentary as " the concentration of the path ('maggasamaadhi'), which is followed immediately by its result (i.e. the corresponding fruit)" -- see n. 64 at p. 294 of the BB anthology. Thus these 4 modes of progress are an ex post facto (after the event) classification. Jon #101464 From: "connie" Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:39 am Subject: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary nichiconn Hi, Dieter, re: #101460 PED: Abhijatika (adj.) [fr. abhijati] belonging to ones birth or race, born of, being by birth; only in cpd. kanhabhijatika of dark birth, that is, low in the social scale D iii.251 = A iii.348; Sn 563 = Th 1, 833; cp. J P T S. 1893, 11; in sense of "evil disposed or of bad character" at J v.87 (= kalaka -- sabhava C.). Sn 563. [Sela:] Having seen him, become Brahmaa, unequalled crusher of Maara's armies, who would not have faith, even one who is base-born? That's shortly after 557 where: 'Sela', said the Blessed One, 'Saariputta, taking after the Tathaagata, keeps the unsurpassed doctrine-wheel rolling that has been set rolling by me.['] DN iii 251. Sixes (21) - [Sariputta:] 'Six "species" (aabhijaatiyo): Here, (a) one born in dark conditions lives a dark life, (b) one born in dark conditions lives a bright life, (c) one born in dark conditions attains Nibbaana, which is neither dark nor bright, (d) one born in bright conditions lives a dark life, (e) one born in bright conditions lives a bright life, (f) one born in bright conditions attains Nibbaana which is neither dark nor bright.['] Conditions. Dunno what J v 87 says, but in Jataka, book 1, story 6 we read: Those only 'godlike' call who shrink from sin, The white-souled tranquil votaries of Good. I suspect "the problem" is not the wording of the texts but how one takes them. peace, connie #101465 From: Ken O Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. ashkenn2k Dear Lukas Nina post on right understanding is good, it is always agreeable from my personal perspective. The path is always understanding but the method can be different. Method should suit your inclinations. If you have dosa, then you should listen to dhamma on patience, on loving kindness, on equamity and generosity. You focus on them, listen to them (see below on listening), sooner or later, you will realise your citta becomes kinder and gentler. This is the same for sila A lot of times, when I come across questions on sila in DSG, I seldom answer because there are many opinions of sila. However my IMHO on sila is always going back to the roots of the akusala behaviour. The behaviour aspects are resulted from body intimations and verbal intimations be it kusala and aksuala. Such intimidations originated from cittas, caused by cittas and not otherwise. Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma pg 206 No 22 Unwholesome kamma Of them, unwholesome kamma is threefold according to the doors of action, namely bodily action, verbal action and mental action How? Killing stealing and sexual misconduct are bodily actions generally occuring through the door of the body known as bodily intimation Falsh speech, slandering, harse speech and frivolous talk are verbal actions generally occuring though the door of speech known as vocal intimation. Convetousness, ill will and wrong view are mental actions, generally ocurring in the mind without (body or vocal) intimation pg 208 No 23 By way of Roots and Consciousness Of them killing, harsh speech and ill will spring from the root of hatred; sexual misconduct, covetousness, and wrong view from the root of greed; the remainng four arise from the two roots. According to the classes of consciouness this unwholesome kamma is altogether twelvefold. Sila is twofold (pg 38) The Perfection of Enlightment as avoidance (varitta) and as performance (caritta). Sila as avoidance is abstaining from evil. Sila as performance is the righ conduct one should follow. KenO - when akusala citta arises, and one realise it, the citta that condition akusala behaviour will be weaken. Thus panna is important to the development of sila. Everytime, panna arise, aksuala loses its strength, its strangulations, its bondages, its ties. However some say that even though panna arise, they still commit aksuala behaviour. To me that is because panna is not strong enough as compare to the lantency of the aksuala, it is not strong enough to see the danger in aksuala behaviour. When we dont see the danger, it is difficult to abstain from evil. That is the reasons why the four aksuala cetasikas is universal to all aksuala behavour, moha preventing to see the danger of akusala, there is no shame or fear in the wrong doing (hiri and anottapa) and restlessness. Listening of the dhamma is also impt to panna and to cultivations. pg 186, Chapter Five, Commentary to the Summary of Topics of Abdhidhamma and Commentary The volitions that consists in listening to beneficial advice with an intention that is undefiled, occuring by way of the wish to further one's own or others' well being, thinking that, having heard the dhamma by putting it into practise as instructed one will become one who partakes of the different ordinary and transcendent qualities, or, having become learned, one will help others by teaching the dhamma, is called hearing the Dhamma. The volition that consists in studying blameless [subjects of ordinary] learning etc, included in this. pg 187 Acariya Dhammapala Thera states that teaching, listening and striaghtening one's view are included in cultivation becuse they constitute the repeated practise of wholesome dhammas. Others, however argue that when one teaches and listens one does so employing knowledge consequent upon that one is teaching and repeatedly piercing through to the characteristics [of dhammas]; thus teaching and listening are included in cultivation because they bring acute insight. With metta Ken O #101466 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:32 am Subject: Re: . Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, pa nilovg Dear Dieter, I appreciate your question. Allow me to send your good question to dsg. Op 17-okt-2009, om 18:15 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > But allow me one question: was following your interpretation 'As to > the second case, a person who lives in darkness but who is bound > for light, he lives in the same unfavorable circumstances but he > performs kusala kamma. He will have a happy rebirth' or are you > quoting the commentary? > It is claimed that 'the same unfavorable circumstances ' are > your words , giving the impression the author may have considered > the untouchables 'inherently doomed ' becase the second case don't > apply to them. > I do not agree with that but would be glad to make my point with > the wording of the commentary.. -------- commentary: Tamaadiisu tamoti andhakaarabhuuto. Tamaparaaya.noti tamameva para.m ayana.m gati assaati tamaparaaya.no. Eva.m sabbapadesu attho veditabbo. Ettha ca pa.thamo niice ca.n.daalaadikule dujjiivite hiinattabhaave nibbattitvaa tii.ni duccaritaani paripuureti. Dutiyo tathaavidho hutvaa tii.ni sucaritaani paripuureti. Tatiyo u.laare khattiyakule bahuannapaane sampannattabhaave nibbattitvaa tii.ni duccaritaani paripuureti. Catuttho taadisova hutvaa tii.ni sucaritaani paripuureti. ------ We read as to the second case: Dutiyo tathaavidho hutvaa tii.ni sucaritaani paripuureti.Tathaavidho hutvaa. tathaavidho: such like, of such kind. Having been such like. Tathaavidho hutvaa, this is very short. N: thus, as the previous. However,tii.ni sucaritaani paripuureti. He accomplishes in the three sucarita, and that is kusala kamma. He is also of lowly birth, has bad sustenance for his living (dujjivita), he has an insignificant (hiina, low) attabhaava: unfavorable body or appearance. But he performs kusala kamma. I translated dujjivita wrongly as wrong livelihood. It is in contrast to the third case: bahuannapaana: much food and drink. He lives in poor conditions as to food and drink. All these things are vipaaka, there is no judgement at all here. The passive side of life. But how is the active side, the kamma? Kusala kamma or akusala kamma, and that is what really matters. Nina. #101467 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lukas on unpleasant vipaaka. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 17-okt-2009, om 17:39 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > L: That's very helpful. The characteristic, now. ------ N: when you understand that it is beneficial to know the characteristic now, of the present moment, your expectations will dwindle. No time for expectations. And also pariyatti develops. Listening and considering Dhamma, reflecting, and most helpful, consider this moment. -------- > l: But isnt it like that considering Dhamma and thinking on Dhamma > is the development of pariyatti? even its akusala thinking? --- N: You do not have to name it akusala thinking, it is just dhamma, conditioned. Do not worry whether or not this is pariyatti. Just the present moment. --------- > L: I have a lot of ideas about Dhamma, like I verified in my life > that there is no Self in some extent. > like I am travelling, i cant choose, just different moments but i > dont know the characteristic. isnt it paryiatti in such moments? ------ N: Citta is always traveling, to different objects. It does not choose. JUst different moments, as you say. Only gradually will we have more understanding of characteristics, such understanding cannot arise immediately, impossible. The main thing is not to worry. If there is worry you are concerned with self again. But I have to remind myself also. Nina. #101468 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:50 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Intimation. Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok nilovg Dear Han, Thank you for your further elaborations on bodily intimation, as given by Ashin Sayadaw. Nina. Op 17-okt-2009, om 13:14 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > It is a long explanation in the book I am referring to. What I had > posted was only the second half of the explanations. The first half > includes the following explanations. #101469 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: . Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and comment... upasaka_howard Dear Nina (and Dieter) - In a message dated 10/18/2009 1:32:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Dieter, I appreciate your question. Allow me to send your good question to dsg. Op 17-okt-2009, om 18:15 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > But allow me one question: was following your interpretation 'As to > the second case, a person who lives in darkness but who is bound > for light, he lives in the same unfavorable circumstances but he > performs kusala kamma. He will have a happy rebirth' or are you > quoting the commentary? > It is claimed that 'the same unfavorable circumstances ' are > your words , giving the impression the author may have considered > the untouchables 'inherently doomed ' becase the second case don't > apply to them. > I do not agree with that but would be glad to make my point with > the wording of the commentary.. -------- commentary: Tamaadiisu tamoti andhakaarabhuuto. Tamaparaaya.noti tamameva para.m ayana.m gati assaati tamaparaaya.no. Eva.m sabbapadesu attho veditabbo. Ettha ca pa.thamo niice ca.n.daalaadikule dujjiivite hiinattabhaave nibbattitvaa tii.ni duccaritaani paripuureti. Dutiyo tathaavidho hutvaa tii.ni sucaritaani paripuureti. Tatiyo u.laare khattiyakule bahuannapaane sampannattabhaave nibbattitvaa tii.ni duccaritaani paripuureti. Catuttho taadisova hutvaa tii.ni sucaritaani paripuureti. ------ We read as to the second case: Dutiyo tathaavidho hutvaa tii.ni sucaritaani paripuureti.Tathaavidho hutvaa. tathaavidho: such like, of such kind. Having been such like. Tathaavidho hutvaa, this is very short. N: thus, as the previous. However,tii.ni sucaritaani paripuureti. He accomplishes in the three sucarita, and that is kusala kamma. He is also of lowly birth, has bad sustenance for his living (dujjivita), he has an insignificant (hiina, low) attabhaava: unfavorable body or appearance. But he performs kusala kamma. I translated dujjivita wrongly as wrong livelihood. It is in contrast to the third case: bahuannapaana: much food and drink. He lives in poor conditions as to food and drink. All these things are vipaaka, there is no judgement at all here. The passive side of life. But how is the active side, the kamma? Kusala kamma or akusala kamma, and that is what really matters. Nina. ============================== Nina, I'm grateful to Dieter for his having written you. Had you replied to my prior post to you on this thread as you have replied here to Nina, my understanding and reaction would have been altogether different. While I still see an iota of racist perspective in the commentarial view of untouchables as having "unfavorable body or appearance," that is a relatively minor matter. I now understand you to be saying that the commentary considers that case #1 applies to those low-caste people (being such due to prior kamma) engaged in further unwholesome kamma, whereas the 2nd case refers also to low-caste people but who are bound for better fortune due to current wholesome kamma, and the 3rd and 4th cases pertain to high-caste people, some darkness-bound due to engaging in current unwholesome kamma and some light-bound due to engaging in current wholesome kamma. Thus there is not an assertion of "low-born" people necessarily being bad acting or being unconditionally condemned to "darkness". I regret that you didn't make this clearer to me before, and I strongly regret not pushing for further clarification. I should have known, knowing you as I do, that there had to be more to this matter that was either being missed by me or wasn't clearly being communicated to me. I also apologize to you for reacting as strongly as I did. Being spoken of by a couple others as engaging in "bully rhetoric" and as engaging in fascist-like "pc" excess, is another matter, but I will just let that go. The whole matter became overly heated. I apologize for my part in that. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101470 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:03 am Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re: . Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), ... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Dieter) - Please change "Nina" to "Dieter" in the following! Sorry. With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/18/2009 3:51:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Had you replied to my prior post to you on this thread as you have replied here to Nina, my understanding and reaction would have been altogether different. #101471 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:42 pm Subject: No First Beginning! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Samsaric Cycle has No Beginning... The Blessed Buddha once explained the round of existence as this: No first beginning of ignorance can be perceived, bhikkhus, before which there was no ignorance, and after which ignorance had emerged. Nevertheless ignorance has its specific causal conditions: When there is mental fermentation, ignorance also comes into being. When the 5 mental hindrances are present, ignorance grows & expands. AN V 113, MN I 54 No first beginning of craving for becoming can ever be perceived, before which there was no craving for becoming, and after which craving for becoming had emerged. Nevertheless craving for becoming has its specific causal condition: When there is ignorance of the 4 truths, craving for becoming arises. AN V 116 But why does the Blessed One give this exposition of the round with those two things as starting points? Because they are the outstanding causes of kammic action that leads to the happy and unhappy destinies! Ignorance is prime cause of behaviour, that results in unhappy destiny. Vism 525 Naturally: In no cyclic process can a beginning ever be pointed out... Why not? There is neither beginning nor end of a fully closed circle! For explanation of this wheel of becoming click here : http://www.vimokkha.com/paticcasamuppada.html <..> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #101472 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:46 pm Subject: Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary upasaka_howard Dear Connie - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > I think we've both gone off the deep end again & for my part, I apologize & acknowledge that you bore me no ill will either. Thank you. Really, good to think that no matter how different our sides of the street are, we can look across them with friendly eyes. (: Make it cow eyes! ============================== I had switched my list status from individual mails to digest, and then later back again, and in the process I seem to have missed this post of yours, which I regret. Thank you for writing this, Connie. I do indeed consider you a good friend, and I'm pleased that we both look at each other "with friendly eyes"! :-) With metta, Howard (writing from the website) #101473 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: . Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and comment... nilovg Hi Howard, Op 18-okt-2009, om 21:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Thus there is > not an assertion of "low-born" people necessarily being bad acting or > being unconditionally condemned to "darkness". I regret that you > didn't make > this clearer to me before, and I strongly regret not pushing for > further > clarification. I should have known, knowing you as I do, that there > had to be > more to this matter that was either being missed by me or wasn't > clearly > being communicated to me. I also apologize to you for reacting as > strongly as > I did. -------- N: But no need to apologize, Howard. I know that some strong language comes from a good heart, certainly in your case. The sutta is very short and then misunderstandings may arise. In other suttas the Buddha also explained about results of kamma: having a lowly birth, having a high birth. Just result, nobody can choose his birth. As you know, in the order of monks there was no difference. Of course there was no difference. A similar case is being born a woman or a man. The first one is weaker vipaaka, and true, for a woman it is more difficult to be recognized for her work in society. Just recently Lodewijk mentioned a case: a Dutch woman minister who was not esteemed enough for her work when visiting Indonesia. She wrote in a book: I became smaller and smaller, and the Ambassador (Lodewijk) became bigger and bigger. Lodewijk reproached himself that he had not pushed her more. Always Dhamma in daily life as you see. We can learn. But both women and men can become arahats, as we read in the sutta. ***** Nina. #101474 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:04 pm Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 2, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, Some people have doubt as to the authenticity of the Abhidhamma, they doubt whether it is the teaching of the Buddha himself. As one studies the Abhidhamma one will see for oneself that the Abhidhamma teaches about phenomena which can be experienced at this moment. The Abhidhamma deals with seeing, visible object, with all experiences through the senses and the mind, with all wholesome qualities, with all defilements. The different parts of the scriptures are one, they are the Buddha’s teachings. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, Chapter I, §53, Ignorance) about the elimination of ignorance. We read about a conversation of a monk with the Buddha about this subject: “By how knowing, lord, by how seeing does ignorance vanish and knowledge arise?” “In him that knows and sees the eye as impermanent, monk, ignorance vanishes and knowledge arises. In him that knows and sees visible objects…seeing-consciousness…eye-contact…the pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feeling arising dependant on eye-contact as impermanent, monk, ignorance vanishes and knowledge arises…” The same is said about the realities pertaining to the ear, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind. All these phenomena have to be investigated in order to know them as they are. There is seeing, and shortly after that there is attachment to what is seen but most of the time there is ignorance of these phenomena. Even when there is no pleasant feeling on account of what is seen there can still be clinging. There is clinging time and again to seeing, to visible object, to hearing, to sound, to all that can be experienced. ****** Nina. #101475 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:04 am Subject: Dhs. The arising of consciousness - 12 akusala, 2 rooted in delusion sprlrt Hi Lukas (& pt), I'll leave the Patthàna to settle down a bit before posting more exerpts from it - Alberto Dhammasangani - The arising of consciousness (cittuppada) ... The 12 akusala cittas (dvàdasa akusalacittàni) ... [The two rooted in delusion, moha-mùla, 11th and 12th] 422.(11th), 427.(12th) - Which dhammas are akusala? The moment when an akusala citta is arising, accompanied by neutral feeling and associated with doubt (vicikiccha, 11th), / restlessness (udhacca, 12th), concerned about the object which is [either] visible, or udible, or smellable, or tastable, or tangible, or whatever-[other]-dhamma object. At that moment there is: contact, feeling, memory, intention, consciousness, initial, and sustaining application, disinterestedness, one-pointedness of mind, the faculty of energy, the faculty of concentration [12th], the faculty of the mind, the faculty of disinterestedness, the faculty of life, wrong thinking, wrong effort, wrong concentration [12th], the power of energy, the power of concentration [12th], the power of non-shying [of akusala], the power of non-dreading [akusala], doubt [11th], / restlessness [12th], delusion [about realities], non-shying, non-dreading, calm [12th only. DhsA: from non-distraction towards other modes], grasp, balance. These, and whatever other non-rùpa dhamma arisen by conditions, are the dhammas that there are at that moment. These dhammas are akusala. #101476 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:19 am Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 4. nilovg Dear friends, In the Commentary to the “Book of Analysis”, the “Dispeller of Delusion”, Ch 8, Classification of the Right Efforts, Suttanta Division, 1448, it is said: “But the five aggregates are called the plane of insight. These are divided into past, future and present. But the defilements inhering in these are not to be said to be past, future or present; inhering in the past aggregates, they are unabandoned. Inhering in the future aggregates and in the present aggregates, they are also unabandoned. This is called ‘arisen having obtained a plane’. Hence the ancients said: ‘The defilements which are unabolished in this or that plane are counted as arisen having obtained a soil’.” The “Visuddhimagga”, in the explanation about “Purity by Knowledge and Vision” (Ch XXII, 81-86), gives an additional explication about “arisen in the sense of having obtained a soil”. It states: “While unprofitable [kamma] is still unabolished in any given soil [plane], it is called arisen by having soil [to grow in].” This refers to the latent tendencies that lie dormant in the citta. We read further on (82): “And here the difference between ‘soil’ and ‘having obtained a soil’ should be understood. For ‘soil’ (plane) means the five aggregates in the three planes of becoming, which are the objects of insight. ‘What has obtained a soil’ is an expression for defilements, capable of arising with respect to those aggregates. Those defilements have that soil (plane). That is why ‘by having soil [to grow in]’ is said.... Now when defilements are inherent, in the sense of being unabandoned, in someone’s aggregates, it is only those aggregates of his that are basis for those defilements, not aggregates belonging to another. ... But in the case of the Stream Enterer, etc., when a given defilement, which is a root of the round, has been abandoned by means of a given path in a given Noble Person’s aggregates, then, his aggregates are no longer called ‘soil’ for such defilement since they are no longer a basis for it...” Therefore, the defilements that are dormant in the citta, the latent tendencies, are realities which each have their own characteristic. These can be eradicated by the development of insight, and this means, by knowing the true nature of the aggregates or the realities which appear. ******* Nina. #101477 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok sarahprocter... Dear Friends, A last set of brief notes from the discussions on various topics, relating to DSG posts <5>: 1. Nibbana as the only animitta dhamma. When vipassana or samaadhi accompanying magga citta are referred to asanimitta (see Sangiti #96319 and Psm refs), it is referring to that aspect on nibbana experienced. 2. Asavas, Jessica #97786. "With asavas", anusaya not eradicated. Referring to the "flux", the intoxicants from moment to moment, so fast. Dosa not included because otherwise "everything is flux". What commonly arises as soon as the sense objects are experienced. 3. The Great Forty, Jessica #98365. The extra 10 wholesome and unwholesome, referring to the effects of the first 20. 4. Lukas, citta as hadaya (heart), #98524. The innermost thing is citta, the inner ayatana. 5. Lukas, phassa first # 98582. Only phassa touches. Phassa brings feeling. 6. Passadhi (calm) and (kusala)ekaggata, pt #97045. Passadhi conditions ekaggata to be stronger and stronger. Concentration appears with calm. Samatha is passadhi, kusala calm. When calm is strong, concentration is clear. Sometimes when samadhi is mention, actually it is samatha which is being referred to. When the object is clearly comprehended (by developed panna), only then does concentration appear clearly. When samatha is highly developed, samadhi is a dominant cetasika with the object clearly 'focussed on'. 7. Samaadhaana and siila, Scott #100903, #100946, not to be confused with "samaadaana siila" (undertaking sila). Samaadhaana, siila as well-behaved, composed, working as it should do. When there is (kusala) siila, no misbehaviour. Composing speech and deeds. When it is used with samaadhi, composed, collected, concentrated – a different sense. 8. 4 sampaja~n~nas (in the development of satipa.t.thaana) –of a) purpose (saatthaka-s), b) suitability (sappaaya-s), c) resort (gocara-s), d) non-delusion (asammoha-s) a) leads to b) leads to c) leads to d). Saatthaka sampaja~n~na, see #98721 (Nina). Knowing the purpose, knowing what is beneficial. For e.g, it depends on whether there is saathaka sampaja~n~na, whilst going to Jetavana or walking round the stupa as to whether it is beneficial... Reading and knowing what is beneficial at such a time. If we have at a discussion to listen/read and consider in order to understand reality now, not thinking about what will bring understanding in future. So it's saatthaka sampaja~n~na which brought us here, but not sappaaya sampaja~n~na until there is the "suitablity" or usefulness from coming here, conditioning the cittas by decisive support condition. This will lead to gocara sampaja~n~na, the understanding of reality as the object of understanding, leading to asammoha sampaja~n~na, the dispelling of ignorance. 9. Pathavi dhatu (earth element), #98109, #98077 (Han, Ken H, Nina), "translated as solidity or extension, has the characteristic of hardness or softness..." Understand hardness is enough! Just understand it's hard, the characteristic which can be known through the body-sense. Extension – it spreads. Solidity – without pathavi, no rupa can arise, the foundation. Last quote: "Like a flash – the whole life is like a flash." Metta Sarah ======== #101478 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hearing harsh words sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Lukas, --- On Sat, 17/10/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >I am very glad someone asked you to type this out. Excellent reminder. ... S: Yes, actually, thanks to Betty....I thought I'd share it here at the same time. Here's one that you (Nina) quoted from a tape which Lukas may like too. They are helpful for many of us. Lukas, if you hear anything useful on a recording, maybe you can also share a few lines, but no pressure:-). Metta Sarah ======= #101479 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: . Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and comment... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/19/2009 1:53:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 18-okt-2009, om 21:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Thus there is > not an assertion of "low-born" people necessarily being bad acting or > being unconditionally condemned to "darkness". I regret that you > didn't make > this clearer to me before, and I strongly regret not pushing for > further > clarification. I should have known, knowing you as I do, that there > had to be > more to this matter that was either being missed by me or wasn't > clearly > being communicated to me. I also apologize to you for reacting as > strongly as > I did. -------- N: But no need to apologize, Howard. I know that some strong language comes from a good heart, certainly in your case. The sutta is very short and then misunderstandings may arise. --------------------------------------------- You're very kind, Nina, as always. But there is a need to apologize, specifically for my not having the patience and persistence to ferret out what you actually meant before replying as strongly as I did. --------------------------------------------- In other suttas the Buddha also explained about results of kamma: having a lowly birth, having a high birth. Just result, nobody can choose his birth. As you know, in the order of monks there was no difference. Of course there was no difference. A similar case is being born a woman or a man. The first one is weaker vipaaka, and true, for a woman it is more difficult to be recognized for her work in society. ------------------------------------------------ Happily that situation for women is changing radically for the better in certain parts of the globe. Some say we are entering a kali yuga, a dark period, but I find much that is very bright in the world at this time. Sexism, racism, homophobia, and anti-Semitism and other religious intolerance are all increasingly "endangered species" in parts of the world at this time - although they are far from dead, and good people must remain vigilant. A couple other points: What births are considered "lowly" is mostly a matter of societal convention, and it is best, I think, not to rush to judging what constitutes a "lesser" mode of existence. Also, as the Buddha pointed out, the ramifications of kamma are so complex that we would likely do well not to make presumptions of what is what in that regard. I think it is especially important to refrain from presumptions with regard to the abilities, potential, and character of those in circumstances considered "lowly" in a given society. It is particularly important, I think, to not make assumptions about what is "innate". -------------------------------------------------- Just recently Lodewijk mentioned a case: a Dutch woman minister who was not esteemed enough for her work when visiting Indonesia. She wrote in a book: I became smaller and smaller, and the Ambassador (Lodewijk) became bigger and bigger. Lodewijk reproached himself that he had not pushed her more. Always Dhamma in daily life as you see. We can learn. But both women and men can become arahats, as we read in the sutta. ----------------------------------------------------- Yes. And people of African descent can, instead of being cast into slavery or into grossly limited conditions and demeaning roles, become heads of state of major industrial nations! (What policies one approves of or disapproves of is another matter: I'm not heading towards a discussion of political views! ;-) But arahantship and presidencies aside, at more everyday levels, people in all walks of life should have all possibilities open to them, and I think that is becoming increasingly the case at this time in history. In any case, it is something to work for. -------------------------------------------------------- ***** Nina. ================================ With metta and appreciation, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101480 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 4. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for the very informative post. As I understand better if I can read the Pali, I have checked the definitions from "Visuddhimagga" and I would like to share the Pali text that I have found. -------------------- While unprofitable [kamma] is still unabolished in any given soil [plane], it is called "arisen by having soil [to grow in]". Taasu taasu bhuumisu asamuuhata,m akusala.m "bhuumiladdhuppanna.m" naama. -------------------- For "soil" (plane) means the five aggregates in the three planes of becoming, which are the objects of insight. "Bhuumii" ti hi vipassanaaya aaramma.nabhuutaa tebhuumakaa pa~ncakkhandhaa. -------------------- "What has obtained a soil" is an expression for defilements, capable of arising with respect to those aggregates. Those defilements have that soil (plane). That is why "by having soil [to grow in]" is said.... "Bhuumiladdha.m" naama tesu khandhesu uppattiraha.m kilesajaata.m. Tenahi saa bhuumiladdhaa naama hotiiti tasmaa "bhuumiladdhanti" vuccati. -------------------- Respectfully, Han #101481 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hearing harsh words nilovg Dear Sarah, Lukas, Op 19-okt-2009, om 12:33 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Lukas, if you hear anything useful on a recording, maybe you can > also share a few lines, but no pressure:-). ----- N: Lukas, you will notice that this helps you yourself and others. While you type it, it reminds you. Nina. #101482 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 4. nilovg Dear Han, Thank you very much. We want to profit from your Pali knowledge. Nina. Op 19-okt-2009, om 15:01 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > As I understand better if I can read the Pali, I have checked the > definitions from "Visuddhimagga" and I would like to share the Pali > text that I have found. #101483 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: . Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours nilovg Hi Howard, Op 19-okt-2009, om 14:37 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > But there is a need to apologize, > specifically for my not having the patience and persistence to > ferret out > what you actually meant before replying as strongly as I did. ------ N: Emotions play their part and we all have this as regards some points of the Dhamma. And then we overlook the subtle point that is being made because of our emotions. This can especially happen with regard to the commentaries. They are elaborate with similes, comparisons. There is something coming up soon in Latent Tendencies, a point we had discussions on some time ago. Here the Suttanta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma are compared and you thought that Buddhaghosa was judgemental with regard to the suttanta. This was not his intention at all. He just wants to show: there are latent tendencies. He would never deny the importance of any of the three parts of the Tipi.taka. I thought of you again when rereading this. Be warned, be prepared ;-)) Nina. #101484 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:32 am Subject: Re: personal news and Dhamma. glenjohnann Hello Nina, I have been catching up on posts here, having been less regular about reading them lately. Nina, I am so happy to hear that Lodewijk has completed his memoirs and that they have been published. I only wish that I could read Dutch and enjoy them myself. I remember Lodewijk talking about his project when we were in India 2 years ago and how he was enjoying doing it. Please give him my congratulations - it is wonderful that the book is being well received. And even more wonderful that he has been able to subtly incorporate some of his understanding of the Dhamma. When he has asked questions during discussions, it is so clear that he has considered it very deeply. And nice to have you remind me of the interview we gave in India (was it Lucknow?). I well remember sitting outside speaking together with the interviewer. As you said, it flowed well and was an interesting 3-way discussion. I have never seen a copy of it either. Best regards to both you and Lodewijk. Ann #101485 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:50 am Subject: Re: Hearing harsh words szmicio Dear Sarah, Nina You supported me recently very much. Thanks. Less Self is better. Lukas > keep the dhamma that arises, where is it? > Kusala arises and we are glad: that is the idea of self who is glad. > We dislike it when kusala does not arise, and then there is again the > idea of self who dislikes it. When we worry that there is no sati, > there is the idea of self. When satipatthaana arises we see more > clearly when there is an idea of self. > what appears through the eyes is only that which appears through the > eyes. We cling to the idea of a person who exists.> > > Lukas, if you hear anything useful on a recording, maybe you can also share a few lines, but no pressure:-). #101486 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: . Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/19/2009 10:28:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 19-okt-2009, om 14:37 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > But there is a need to apologize, > specifically for my not having the patience and persistence to > ferret out > what you actually meant before replying as strongly as I did. ------ N: Emotions play their part and we all have this as regards some points of the Dhamma. And then we overlook the subtle point that is being made because of our emotions. This can especially happen with regard to the commentaries. They are elaborate with similes, comparisons. There is something coming up soon in Latent Tendencies, a point we had discussions on some time ago. Here the Suttanta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma are compared and you thought that Buddhaghosa was judgemental with regard to the suttanta. This was not his intention at all. He just wants to show: there are latent tendencies. He would never deny the importance of any of the three parts of the Tipi.taka. I thought of you again when rereading this. Be warned, be prepared ;-)) ---------------------------------- LOL! --------------------------------- Nina ======================= With regard to "... you thought that Buddhaghosa was judgemental with regard to the suttanta," this is not something I recall expressing. I don't have that as an opinion. Perhaps someone else said this? With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101487 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:57 am Subject: Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, pa moellerdieter Hi Connie (Nina and Howard), thanks for your comment .. somehow exceeding my original question conc. 'the same unfavorable circumstances ' = Nina's interpretation or translated Pali wording of the commentary? , which Nina kindly made clear meanwhile . Nevertheless the food for thought appreciated .. ;-) You quoted PED: Abhijatika and aabhijaatiyo : belonging to ones birth or race and the six species , but that would not answer another question whether the Buddha himself made direct references to the caste of the untouchables as the author of the commentary did. B.TW. I have some difficulties to find the suttas PED refers to ( D iii.251 = A iii.348; Sn 563) perhaps you can help me (D.N. 3 ? A.N. ? (A.N. III is only up to 163 ) S.N. ? ) Quite interesting passages (Sn 563. [Sela:] Having seen him, become Brahmaa, unequalled crusher of Maara's armies, who would not have faith, even one who is base-born? That's shortly after 557 where: 'Sela', said the Blessed One, 'Saariputta, taking after the Tathaagata, keeps the unsurpassed doctrine-wheel rolling that has been set rolling by me.['] ) , i.e. questions: base born ?, in relation to spontaneously born?? and (what was still the story about ) Sela ?... how do you relate above to the previous issue? you wrote: I suspect "the problem" is not the wording of the texts but how one takes them. yes, but not excluding how one brings them ..(e.g. the issue of sensible matters ... ) ;-) with Metta Dieter #101488 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: personal news and Dhamma. nilovg Dear Ann, Op 19-okt-2009, om 18:32 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > I remember Lodewijk talking about his project when we were in India > 2 years ago and how he was enjoying doing it. Please give him my > congratulations ------ N: Thank you. He did not enjoy it in the end, it became traumatic, to revive all these difficult questions, decisions he had to make, his shortcomings he felt, unsolvable problems he had to face. He is still somewhat overworked. We discuss a lot about: thinking of self, self. Worry, regret about the past; self, self. All the reminders for Lukas, we consider them a lot. So many mails to Lukas about this subject, and I did not realize that it would be very appropriate for myself too. Thank you for your interest, Nina. #101489 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: . Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours nilovg Hi Howard, Op 19-okt-2009, om 19:21 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > With regard to "... you thought that Buddhaghosa was judgemental with > regard to the suttanta," this is not something I recall expressing. > I don't > have that as an opinion. ------- N: Not in this wording but we shall see what happens when we come to this soon, LOL. Nina. #101490 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:12 pm Subject: Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. glenjohnann Hi Sarah, Lukas and all "Cheating dhamma." Is it correct to say that what Achan Sujin means by this is that unless thinking, considering takes us closer to right understanding and or awareness of the nature of realities (ie. the thinking etc. is with right understanding) that we are cheating dhamma? I know that we can spend a lot of time thinking about dhamma in ways that are not helpful - ie. with expectation of the growth of right understanding, expectation that it will result in awareness, thinking that "we" are doing something useful etc. This, to my understanding is "cheating dhamma". When one is honest about it, there is a huge amount of cheating happening! I am finding the notes of the Bkk discussions helpful - thanks Lukas for the questions and Sarah for the notes. Ann > .... > S: General comments: Thinking and thinking, but not considering realities as realities. It can seem that we're interested in the Dhamma, but when there is no usefulness, they are the "cheating dhammas", taking us further away from the understanding of reality as anatta. This can be for the whole life, next life, listening, studying texts, Pali and so on, again and again. It cheats if it seems good and valuable but is not useful. > > #101491 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: . Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/19/2009 2:56:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 19-okt-2009, om 19:21 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > With regard to "... you thought that Buddhaghosa was judgemental with > regard to the suttanta," this is not something I recall expressing. > I don't > have that as an opinion. ------- N: Not in this wording but we shall see what happens when we come to this soon, LOL. --------------------------------------------- Okay! ;-) ------------------------------------------ Nina. ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101492 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:21 pm Subject: Name and Form... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Basic Duality is Name and Form... The Blessed Buddha once explained mentality-materiality like this: So, bhikkhus, for the fool, who is blinded by ignorance and obsessed by craving, there re-arises this body. Now this body with its 6 senses sources makes a duality: name-&-form or mentality-&-materiality... Due to this duality there is contact. Touched & stirred by contact the fool feels pleasure & pain. Bhikkhus, craving increases in any one who dwells seeing enjoyment in things productive of pleasure! With craving as condition, there is clinging. Clinging is the condition causing becoming. By becoming is there birth. Thus re-arises a new body also with 6 senses. With birth as condition the cycle of ageing, sickness and death, sorrow, lamentation and despair is thus renewed once again. Such is therefore the origin of this entire mass of suffering.... (SN II 23-4, 84) Comments: Name-and-Form is a duality of two joined phenomena travelling trough time together, just like 2 persons, who is travelling in the same boat: Name or mind can be likened to a man with good eyes, but without legs... Mind can see & understand everything, but not itself move even a sand corn! Form or body materiality can be likened to a blind man with strong legs. Matter and Body cannot see or understand anything, but can lift a stone... Name-and-form, mind-and-matter, mentality-materiality joined together becomes very effective, just like if the seeing yet crippled man rides on the shoulders of the blind man directing him about: Go this way & stop... Mind is like the ghost in the bottle: Imprisoned, unconnected & powerless... Matter is like a robot with the power turned off: Blind, dumb and frozen... Mind joined with matter however comes to life! Now both seeing and moving! On Duality of Mind-&-Matter, Mentality-Materiality, Naming & Forming: N ama-Rupa, The Core Duality Have a nice dual day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Name and Form #101493 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:09 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (61) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 7. Ruupas from different Factors (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ---------------------------------- Lightness, plasticity and wieldiness condition our bodily movements to be supple. When we are speaking they condition the function of speech to be supple and "workable". Whenever we notice that there are bodily lightness, plasticity and wieldiness, we should remember that they are qualities of ruupa, conditioned by citta, temperature or nutrition. Ruupas always arise in groups (kalapas) consisting of at least eight ruupas, the eight inseparable ruupas. There are ruupas other than these eight and these arise in a group together with the eight inseparable ruupas. Our body consists of different groups of ruupas and each group is surrounded by infinitesimally tiny space, and this is the ruupa that is called space (akaasa) [Note 3]. The ruupas within a group are holding tightly together and cannot be divided, and the ruupa space allows the different groups to be distinct from each other. Thus, its function is separating or delimiting the different groups of ruupas, and therefore it is also called pariccheda ruupa, the ruupa that delimits (pariccheda meaning limit or boundary). The ruupa space is a ruupa without its own distinct nature (asabhaava ruupa), and it arises simultaneously with the different groups of ruupa it surrounds. The "Atthasaalinii" (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 326) states that space is that which cannot be scratched, cut or broken. It is "untouched by the four great Elements." Space cannot be touched. The "Atthasaalinii" gives the following definition of space [Note 4]: " ... space-element has the characteristic of delimiting material objects, the function of showing their boundaries, the manifestation of showing their limits, state of being untouched by the four great elements and of being their holes and openings as manifestation, the separated objects as proximate cause. It is that of which in the separated groups we say 'this is above, this is below, this is across.'" Space delimits the groups of ruupa that are produced by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition so that they are separated from each other. If there were no space in between the different groups of ruupa, these groups would all be connected, not distinct from each other. Space comes into being as it surrounds the groups of ruupas produced by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition and, thus, it is regarded as originating from each of these four factors. [Note 3] I used for the description of space Acharn Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas", Ch 4. [Note 4] See also Dhammasanga.nii, § 638 and Visuddhimagga XIV, 63. ------------------------------ Chapter 7. Ruupas from different Factors (to be continued) with metta, Han #101494 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:27 pm Subject: Re: Hearing harsh words szmicio Dear Nina > > Lukas, if you hear anything useful on a recording, maybe you can > > also share a few lines, but no pressure:-). > ----- > N: Lukas, you will notice that this helps you yourself and others. > While you type it, it reminds you. L: What helps me is yoniso manasikara, but it's so rare. Why it's so rare? I like yoniso manasikara, it's very suprising. I think I need to hear more on present moments. It helps me. Best wishes Lukas P.s I've started to read your's cetasikas again. It's a great reminder. According to yoniso manasikara. I can try no matter what, no matter how hard, it doesnt matter at all. This is only past kusala accumulation , that makes kusala to arise not me. #101495 From: "Staisha" Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:38 pm Subject: (dsg) charactoristic of citta staisha_perry hello friends, well-being to all of you, could someone please help with this question- Q: what are the characteristics of citta this is very basic unfortunately i dont know the answer, understanding reality as it is and the characteristics are very difficult i am studying the Mahatanhasanhaya Sutta since joining this group, i wake up to wonderful posts and response of inspiration from everyone about so many Dhamma topics, insights and we have so much to learn. it seems like there is never enough time or attention (this is what i feel sometimes) thank all of you for the inspiration, diligence and determination, just when i want to give it seems that i am always directed back and reminded to not derive from the goal that is meant for all of us beings- metta staisha #101496 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary sarahprocter... Hi Connie (& Dieter), --- On Sun, 18/10/09, connie wrote: >PED: Abhijatika (adj.) [fr. abhijati] belonging to ones birth or race, born of, being by birth; only in cpd. kanhabhijatika of dark birth, that is, low in the social scale D iii.251 = A iii.348; Sn 563 = Th 1, 833; cp. J P T S. 1893, 11; in sense of "evil disposed or of bad character" at J v.87 (= kalaka -- sabhava C.). Sn 563. [Sela:] Having seen him, become Brahmaa, unequalled crusher of Maara's armies, who would not have faith, even one who is base-born? That's shortly after 557 where: 'Sela', said the Blessed One, 'Saariputta, taking after the Tathaagata, keeps the unsurpassed doctrine-wheel rolling that has been set rolling by me.['] DN iii 251. Sixes (21) - [Sariputta:] 'Six "species" (aabhijaatiyo) : Here, (a) one born in dark conditions lives a dark life, (b) one born in dark conditions lives a bright life, (c) one born in dark conditions attains Nibbaana, which is neither dark nor bright, (d) one born in bright conditions lives a dark life, (e) one born in bright conditions lives a bright life, (f) one born in bright conditions attains Nibbaana which is neither dark nor bright.['] Conditions. ... S: Yes.....a good summary of the six. .... >Dunno what J v 87 says, but in Jataka, book 1, story 6 we read: Those only 'godlike' call who shrink from sin, The white-souled tranquil votaries of Good. >I suspect "the problem" is not the wording of the texts but how one takes them. ... S: Yes, satipatthana in every word, even of comics, for the wise. I just tried to find J v 87, but am confused by the ref. Bk v, Dhonasaakha Jataka is full of good reminders on the topic however. Prince Brahmadatta, the son of the king of Benares was cruel and violent, in spite of the best education and having been taught by the Bodhisatta, then a well-regarded teacher. The Bodhisatta told him: "My friend, you are harsh, cruel, and violent, and verily power that is attained by a man of violence is shortlived: when his power is gone from him, he is like a ship that is wrecked at sea. He reaches no sure heaven. Therefore be not of such a character." As King, Brahmadatta he took all the kings in India as prisoners, pulled out their eyes and killed them. He lost his own eyes to a Yakkha and a vulture, remembered the Bodhisatta's words: "these mortals experience results corresponding to their deeds, even as fruit corresponds with the seed". He lamented his deeds and died, born in hell. Metta Sarah p.s thanks for the other good quotes. ======= #101497 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Questions sarahprocter... Hi Jon & Lukas, --- On Sat, 17/10/09, jonoabb wrote: 101253) > L: Actually "vineyya loke abhijjadomanassam" is mentioned by the Buddha himslef in Satipatthana section in Vibhanga. This is one instance mentioned by Buddha. Tattha katama vineya loke abhijjadomanassam - it means and what vineya loke abhijjadomanassam means? And Buddha having asked answers: that it is...(dont rememeber now), but for sure its not like the strict by removing only, its more like dosa and lobha are not present. >J:Thanks very much for coming in here. If you happen to come across the Vibhanga passage, I'd be interested to see it. Thanks. .... S: Comy to the Vibhanga, Dispeller (PTS), Class. of the Foundations of Mindfulness, 1042: "So after pointing out both the foundation of mindfulness which is contemplation of the body and the factors which are associated with it he now said 'vineyya loke abhijjhaa-domanassa.m' ('having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world') in order to point out the factors to be abandoned. Herein, 'vineyya' ('having put away') [means] having put away by means of putting away through substitution of opposite qualities, and by means of putting away through suppression. " 'Loke' ('regarding the world'): here it is that same body, divided up as internal and external, which has been laid hold of, which is called the 'body'; 'having put away covetousness and grief regarding that world' is the meaning. But since lust (kaamacchanda) is included here by the inclusion of covetousness and ill-will by the inclusion of grief, therefore, through the seeing of the two powerful states comprised within the [five] hindrances, the abandonment of the hindrances should be understood as stated here." ***** Metta Sarah ====== #101498 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. sarahprocter... Hi Jon & Azita, On 'plunderers' and 'plundered': J:>So I checked the ati on-line version, and found the following: ************ ***** A man may plunder as long as it serves his ends, but when others are plundered, he who has plundered gets plundered in turn. A fool thinks, 'Now's my chance,' as long as his evil has yet to ripen. But when it ripens, the fool falls into pain. Killing, you gain your killer. Conquering, you gain one who will conquer you; insulting, insult; harassing, harassment. And so, through the cycle of action, he who has plundered gets plundered in turn. ************ ***** >One or other is correct, and one or other is not! ;-)) ... S: Yes, this makes better sense. BB's translation, SN 15:2 " 'A man will go on plundering So long as it serves his ends, But when others plunder him the plunderer is plundered.* " 'The fool thinks fortune is on his side So long as his evil does not ripen, But when the evil ripens The fool incurs suffering. " 'The killer begets a killer, One who conquers, a conqueror. The abuser begets abuse, The reviler, one who reviles. Thus by the unfolding of kamma The plunderer is plundered.' "* * BB gives some notes on the grammar, commentary and logic as to why the passive needs to be used in the translation. Also: " 'Spk (S:the commentary) glosses kammaviva.t.tena: 'by the maturation of kamma, when the kamma of plundering yields its result.' Spk-.pt adds: 'the kamma which has vanished matures when it gains an opportunity (to ripen) by meeting a condition (conducive to its ripening).' " ***** Metta Sarah ========== S: Great verses, thanks Azita! #101499 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is kaya / citta viveka? Citta Viveka = JHANAS sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, Thanks for adding more on this topic. --- On Sun, 18/10/09, truth_aerator wrote: >MahaNiddesa Pali tells us as it is: >Katamo kayaviveko? Idha bhikkhu vivittam senasanam bhajati arannam rukkhamulam pabbatam kandaram giriguham susanam vanapattham abbhokasam palalapunjam. Kayena vivitto viharati. So eko gacchati, eko titthati, eko nisidati, eko seyyam kappeti, eko gamam pindaya pavisati, eko patikkamati, eko raho nisidati, eko cankamam adhitthati, eko carati viharati iriyati vattati paleti yapeti yapeti. Ayam kayaviveko. >The above talks about a monk who lives physically alone (eko) in the solitary place, the forest (aranna), under root of the trees (rukkhamula) , who walks for alms alone, who SITS ALONE, who is fixing walking alone (eko cankamam adhitthati) , who abides practicing alone… etc etc ... S: Yes, it's referring to the monk living alone, that is without attachment to sense objects (in the highest meaning). Also quoting from the Niddesa: Vism. IV, 83: "But this term 'sense desires' should be regarded as including all kinds, thhat is to say, sense desires as object as given in the Niddesa in the passage beginning 'What are sense desires as object? They are agreeable visible objects...' (Nd.1,1), and the sense desires as defilement given there too and in the Vibhanga thus: 'Zeal as sense desire (kaama), greed as sense desire, zeal and greed as sense desire, thinking as sense desire, greed as sense desire, thinking and greed as sense desire' (Nd.1,2; Vbh. 256). That being so, the words 'quite secluded from sense desires' properly mean 'quite secluded from sense desires as object', and express bodily seclusion [kaayaviveko]..." S: And for the Paali for this para: "kaamehii ti iminaa pana padena ye ca Niddese, 'katame vatthu-kaamaa? Manaapiyaa rupaa' ti [Nd1.1] aadinaa nayena vatthukaamaa vuttaa, ye ca tatth'eva, Vibha~nge ca, 'Chando kaamo, raago kaamo, chandaraago kaamo, sa~nkappo kaamo, raago kaamo, sa~nkapparaago kaamo, ime vuccanti kaamaa' ti [Nd1.2; vbh.256] eva.m kilesakaamaa vuttaa, te sabbe pi sa~ngahitaa icceva da.t.thabbaa. Eva.m hi sati, vivicc'eva kaamehii ti vatthukaamehi pi vivicc'evaa ti attho yujjati. Tena kaayaviveko vutto hoti. " S: In other words "the words 'detached from sensuous things' (vivicc'eva kaamehi) refer, according to Vis.M.IV, to bodily detachment (kaaya-viveka)."(Nyantiloka) Before anyone heard the Buddha's teachings, many ascetics lived alone. The Buddha stressed that it is not by the physical act of living alone, but it is the development of understanding, the detachment from sensuous objects, that is "seclusion". Any viveka has to refer to the wholesome mental qualities with wisdom. ... >Katamo cittaviveko? Pathamam jhanam samapannassa nivaranehi cittam vivittam hoti… >What is seclusion of mind? From being engaged in First Jhana , the mind is secluded from hindrances… [the higher Jhanas are mental seclusion from lower Jhana factors] - MahaNiddesa PTS 1.28 ... S: Yes, "secluded from hindrances". From the commentary to the Vibhanga, Classification of the Jhaanas, 1590: "' so abhijjha.m loke pahaaya' ('he, having abandoned covetousness regarding the world'): this indicates his abandoning of the hindrances by practice of the meditation subject. When he has abandoned the hindrances, [the words] 'vivicc'eva kaamehi' ('aloof from sense desire'), etc., indicated his successive arousing of the jhaanas." S: Whether the seclusion, the living alone in context is referring to the development of satipatthana or development of samatha up to jhana, nowhere did the Buddha suggest that everyone should go to live in a forest or that everyone should attain jhanas. For all, he stressed the importance of learning to 'live alone' without 'craving as a mate', at this moment, detached from the 'bodily' objects, i.e. the sense objects. Can there be 'kaaya viveka' now, wherever we are? This is only possible through the development of right understanding and detachment of visible object, seeing, sound, hearing and other realities appearing now. Metta Sarah ======= #101500 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:21 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 2, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, We would not like to be without eye-sense or ear-sense and this shows that there is clinging. We want to continue seeing, hearing and experiencing all the objects which present themselves through the senses. What is seen and what is experienced through the other senses falls away immediately, but we erroneously believe that things last, at least for a while. Because of our delusion we keep on clinging. When we do not get what we want, when we lose people who are dear to us, or things we possess, we are sad or even in despair. It is attachment which conditions aversion or sadness. When we do not get what we like there is dislike. All such mental states are realities of daily life and, instead of suppressing them, they can be investigated when they appear. Then their different characteristics can be distinguished. Each phenomenon has a different characteristic and it arises because of different conditions. For example, when we are in the company of relatives or friends, we can notice that there are different moments of consciousness. There are moments of attachment, moments that there is clinging to our own pleasant feeling on account of the company of dear people. It may seem that we think of other people’s happiness, but we are merely attached to our own happiness. There are other moments, however, that we sincerely think of the other people’s wellbeing and happiness, that we do not think of ourselves. Attachment and unselfish kindness have different characteristics and gradually their difference can be learnt when they appear. It may seem complicated to analyse one’s mental states. One can, however, lead one’s life naturally, one can enjoy all the pleasant things of life, and at the same time develop more understanding of different moments of consciousness which arise, be it clinging, unselfish kindness or generosity. In that way there can be a more precise understanding of the different characteristics of phenomena. ******* Nina. #101501 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. gazita2002 hallo Sarah, Jon and others Poetic ways of pointing out kamma and vipaka, altho we know that vipaka is only one citta in reality, but as was discussed in Bkk kamma can have many results - and its impossible to work out which kamma has which vipaka. Good to be reminded that good deeds bring good result and bad brings bad. I liked A.S's comments about the teachings are not just for reading but for understanding. Understanding this moment cos if it isnt this moment, then when? Was with a friend the other morning when she bought a bag of frogs which were to go into the cooking pot, then took them to a klong to release them. She said that A.S reminded her that when an opportunity arises to do good then dont think about it , just do it, and that will depend on accumulations and conditions at the time. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #101502 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cheating dhammas nilovg Dear Ann, Op 19-okt-2009, om 21:12 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > Cheating dhamma." Is it correct to say that what Achan Sujin means > by this is that unless thinking, considering takes us closer to > right understanding and or awareness of the nature of realities > (ie. the thinking etc. is with right understanding) that we are > cheating dhamma? --------- N vancaka dhammas, I wrote to Lukas about this, and I quote again: N: Cheating dhammas, vancaka dhammas there is a whole text about this on Rob K's forum, and see also messages of dsg: < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3543> 'These arise in a mind that has developed a certain disliking towards akusalas. The akusala dhammas disguise themselves according to the mind's 'tendency' or mentality' I quote: <4. viriyarambhamukhena uddhaccang vangcethi One over-tries to calm the mind, over-tries to understand things he thinks that he's developing viriya, but instead he's cheated by uddhacca. 5. sikkhakamathamukhena kukkuccang vangcethi One who likes for moral restraint has the kusala - sikkhakamatha. But when one starts to worry about the things done, thinking whether they were allowed, not-allowed, etc., will develop the dvesha(dosa) rooted santhapa. Eventually kukkucca, mistaking it for sikkhakamatha.> read for vangceti: vanceti, the roman spelling is in the Sri Lanka way. What you are doing seems very noble but in fact you delude yourself, not knowing the cittas exactly. There are motives behind it which are not good, but one does not realise this. Lobha poses as kusala. --------- Nina. #101503 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] (dsg) charactoristic of citta sarahprocter... Dear Staisha, --- On Tue, 20/10/09, Staisha wrote: >could someone please help with this question- Q: what are the characteristics of citta this is very basic unfortunately i dont know the answer, ... S: Good question! A citta is a moment of consciousness which experiences an object. For example, seeing consciousness is a citta. It experiences visible object. Hearing is a citta. It experiences sound. One citta arises at a time in rapid succession, experiencing objects through the senses or the mind-door. Please ask more qus on this. We can go step by step. I'd like to check if this makes sense first. ... >understanding reality as it is and the characteristics are very difficult ... S: True! ... >i am studying the Mahatanhasanhaya Sutta ... S: Pls quote any of it to discuss further if you like. ... since joining this group, i wake up to wonderful posts and response of inspiration from everyone about so many Dhamma topics, insights and we have so much to learn. it seems like there is never enough time or attention (this is what i feel sometimes) ... S: One citta or moment at a time! ... >thank all of you for the inspiration, diligence and determination, just when i want to give it seems that i am always directed back and reminded to not derive from the goal that is meant for all of us beings- metta ... S: thank you for your very kind message and also for the nice pic in the album! Directed back to this moment.... My brother has just arrived...must dash! Metta Sarah ========= #101504 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:02 am Subject: Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta gazita2002 hallo Staisha, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Staisha" wrote: > > hello friends, > > well-being to all of you, > > could someone please help with this question- > Q: what are the characteristics of citta Azita: well-being to you too. Cittas characteristic is to experience objects. For example when we see, in reality is it citta which sees, not 'us' bec 'us' is just a concept. The same goes for the other sense doors such as hearing, smelling, tasting, and touching. It is citta which thinks also, not a person. Only ever one citta at a time,. so when there is seeing, there cannot be hearing etc. Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast, that's why we 'think' we can see and hear at the same time. > > this is very basic unfortunately i dont know the answer, > > understanding reality as it is and the characteristics are very difficult i am studying the Mahatanhasanhaya Sutta azita: yes, it is very difficult. In fact, I think its probably the most difficult thing in samsara :-( especially if right understanding has not be developed to the degree that it can know a reality. Its only right understanding that can know, and if there's no understanding of the present moment - then no knowing. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #101505 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:55 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (50) scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing from #101108 Fours (48-49) (cy: #101231, #101297): CSCD Pa~ncaka.m 315. < Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "...7. Samaadhaana and siila, Scott #100903, #100946, not to be confused with 'samaadaana siila' (undertaking sila). Samaadhaana, siila as well-behaved, composed, working as it should do. When there is (kusala) siila, no misbehaviour. Composing speech and deeds. When it is used with samaadhi, composed, collected, concentrated â€" a different sense." Scott: Thanks for the clarification. Sincerely, Scott. #101507 From: "egberdina" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:08 am Subject: Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta egberdina Hello Staisha, There are no citta, so just like in the case of Santa Claus, you can safely stop looking for the characteristics of what isn't there. Well-being to you also Herman #101508 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Staisha) - In a message dated 10/20/2009 8:12:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hello Staisha, There are no citta, so just like in the case of Santa Claus, you can safely stop looking for the characteristics of what isn't there. Well-being to you also Herman ================================ Nice to "see" you, Herman! I guess that by "cittas" you mean those alleged freeze-frame, consciousness thingies that are, while never observed by any folks here, still presumed to exist as realities and not just as conceptually isolated snapshots of the experiential flow. I don't believe in them either, though I won't go so far as asserting that I know them to be nonexistent. ;-) With metta, Howard The Aggregates are Void /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #101509 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:12 am Subject: Citta = whole . If "whole" do not exist, then citta doesn't really exist. truth_aerator Hello Howard, Herman and all, Vinnana is "formed" when internal and external ayatana come together. In other words it is a sort of a "whole", and as some people argue - the wholes do not really exist - just like a car doesn't exist outside of its parts. "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. ' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html With metta, Alex #101510 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta ptaus1 Hi Howard This remainded me of something I wanted to ask you: > H: I guess that by "cittas" you mean those alleged freeze-frame, > consciousness thingies that are, while never observed by any folks here, still > presumed to exist as realities and not just as conceptually isolated snapshots > of the experiential flow. I don't believe in them either, though I won't go > so far as asserting that I know them to be nonexistent. ;-) pt: On a few occasions you mentioned that you also do meditation (samatha I presume), so i was wondering if you also experience something weird that happens to me: Once calm and concentration become relatively stable - so this is way before any kind of jhana - just at the time when attention starts to stick to the breath on it's own and doesn't drift away anymore (so there's no more breaks in mindfulness, breath is no more felt as a bodily sensation but just as a more or less conceptual occurrence) - Now, at that point, if breath is "removed" as object of attention, what is left is a sequence of discreet "moments" - not sure how to describe this - it's kind of like a stream of horribly fast moments - they are not pictures, nor words... Maybe the best description is pulses - but they're not sensation, nor thoughts... And if a normal thought suddenly occurs (like a verbal sentence), it can be seen that it in fact consists of many thousands of these individual pulses. Anyway, when i just started reading about abhidhamma, I thought "hey, so these must be cittas". But then it's often said that a lot of cittas happen in a second (million, billion, trillion... different numbers given in different works) so then these pulses I'm getting probably aren't cittas, because it doesn't seem like there's that many of them, maybe a hundred in a second, but not a billion. Now I'm thinking maybe these are separate mind-door processes... But who knows, not that important... Anyway, I was just reminded to ask if perhaps you or any other meditators here have an abhidhamma explanation for that experience and whether it's a dead end or not. Thanks. Best wishes #101511 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta = whole . If "whole" do not exist, then citta doesn't really ... upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Herman) - I don't disbelieve in consciousness or in its being conditioned. What I don't believe in is consciousness-bytes except as conventional constructs. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101512 From: "connie" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:40 am Subject: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary nichiconn Dear Dieter, D: B.TW. I have some difficulties to find the suttas PED refers to ( D iii.251 = A iii.348; Sn 563) perhaps you can help me (D.N. 3 ? A.N. ? (A.N. III is only up to 163 ) S.N. ? ) c: I think A iii 348 must be somewhere in the Migasaala Sutta, book of sixes ii (44). "Verily, Ananda, he digs a pit for himself who measures the measure of persons." etc. Also an interesting footnote in there: D: Quite interesting passages (Sn 563. [Sela:] Having seen him, become Brahmaa, unequalled crusher of Maara's armies, who would not have faith, even one who is base-born? That's shortly after 557 where: 'Sela', said the Blessed One, 'Saariputta, taking after the Tathaagata, keeps the unsurpassed doctrine-wheel rolling that has been set rolling by me.['] ) , i.e. questions: base born ?, in relation to spontaneously born?? and (what was still the story about ) Sela ?... how do you relate above to the previous issue? c: 'Base' as in 'unfortunate' or 'low', 'poverty', 'filth', whatever we don't like or wouldn't want for ourselves, I guess. Outer appearances and how people tend to think. The commentator and Sela were speaking in consensual / common use terms as opposed to the way Sariputta is teaching us abhidhamma in the Sangiti. S: Yes, satipatthana in every word, even of comics, for the wise. peace, connie #101513 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi, pt - In the past, when doing Goenka-style body-sweeping meditation, I DID perceive "energy pulsations" throughout the body, but I did not perceive consciousness itself proceeding as a sequence of quanta. You may be a more adept meditator than I. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101514 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta ptaus1 Hi Howard, > I did not perceive > consciousness itself proceeding as a sequence of quanta. You may be a more > adept meditator than I. I doubt that. Probably that weird experience was a fluke then. Thanks anyway. Best wishes pt #101515 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi, pt - In a message dated 10/20/2009 12:22:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ptaus1@... writes: Hi Howard, > I did not perceive > consciousness itself proceeding as a sequence of quanta. You may be a more > adept meditator than I. I doubt that. Probably that weird experience was a fluke then. ----------------------------------------------- Not necessarily. I've heard others describing much the same thing. In any case, what you perceived is what you perceived. Neither you nor I know for sure to what if any extent it was a misperception. Only time (and consequence) will determine that. -------------------------------------------- Thanks anyway. --------------------------------------------- :-) ------------------------------------------ Best wishes pt ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101516 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (50) nilovg Dear Scott, did I miss something? I have not finished sutta 50 of the Fours, but never mind, I finish this the next days, and then proceed with the Fives. Nina. Op 20-okt-2009, om 12:55 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > Continuing from #101108 Fours (48-49) (cy: #101231, #101297): > > CSCD > Pa~ncaka.m #101517 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:18 am Subject: Re: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (50) scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: "did I miss something? I have not finished sutta 50 of the Fours..." Scott: No, I just screwed up again. Sincerely, Scott. #101518 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:34 am Subject: a makeable world nilovg Hi Howard, I was thinking over what you wrote: N: This makes me think of Lodewijk's book, where he speaks all the time about the fact that the world is 'makeable'. One can do something about progress, no passive attitude, engagement, no cynism. Of course we know that the outcome of our efforts depend on many complex conditions. Someone wrote that his book should be obligatory reading for the class of young diplomats. Nina. #101519 From: lily_purnomo686@... Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:03 am Subject: Newbie from Indonesia lily_purnomo686 Dear Dhamma fellows, Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Lily Purnomo, live in Jakarta, Indonesia. I'm newbie in this groups. Hoping to get more knowledge of Buddhism from the senior member here :-) So greetings to you all.. Mettacitena, Lily #101520 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hearing harsh words nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 20-okt-2009, om 5:27 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > I've started to read your's cetasikas again. It's a great reminder. ------ N: You can see how many helpers (sobhana cetasikas) are needed for just one moment of kusala citta. Like you say below:This is only past kusala accumulation , that makes kusala to arise not me. Saying this is a moment of kusala, a moment of understanding. Think of all the helpers coming in. -------- > > L: According to yoniso manasikara. I can try no matter what, no > matter how hard, it doesnt matter at all. This is only past kusala > accumulation , that makes kusala to arise not me. ------- We need patience to study and understand the reality appearing at the present moment. There is only the present moment to be studied, like seeing or hearing now, or dosa. I quote from the Perfections from the Ch on Patience: < Sometimes there are conditions for the arising of kusala dhammas and sometimes there are conditions for the arising of akusala which has not yet been eradicated. During one lifespan someone may have tried to train himself to eliminate defilements, but if defilements have not been completely eradicated, he has latent tendencies which lie dormant in the citta and can condition the arising of akusala citta at any time. The strength of the accumulated defilements conditions one’s actions. If someone has listened to the Dhamma time and again, he will see that the Dhamma the Buddha taught is profound, that it is difficult to understand and penetrate the characteristics of realities which the ariyans have clearly realized. We need to apply patience in the development of understanding of realities, and then we can see that understanding grows very gradually, that it grows all the time. One day in the future we shall receive the result of patience which is the highest ascetism, that is, the realisation of the four noble Truths. A person with paññå will see that it is essential to have the utmost patience in each situation of his life. One should have patience to refrain from aversion, displeasure, regret or feeling slighted by the action and speech of someone else, patience in all situations, also with regard to the issues of life and death. When someone understands the Dhamma he will see the significance of patience, patience to be diligent in the study of the Dhamma, to listen to the Dhamma and to investigate and consider it. We should study and practise the Dhamma with sin-cerity, sincerity which can lead to becoming the perfection of truthfulness.> Nina. #101521 From: "colette" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:50 am Subject: Re: a makeable world ksheri3 Hi Nina, It figures <...> just look at the way Nina created a Subject Line: A makeable world; pardon me, is that PLAYDO or is it PLASTIC? I haven't read the post that is attached, I only saw the genius used to create a SUBJECT which people could focus on and try to reflect on, which is a makeable world, a world that can be shaped, can be created, etc. I, now, am forced to see how this applies to what you said in the post, Nina. I'm still glad that you put this forth! toodles, colette #101522 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apa kabar. Newbie from Indonesia nilovg Dear Lily, Apa kabar. Welcome here. I am so happy to see here someone from Indonesia. We lived in Jakarta for several years because of my husband's work. Did you meet the Dhamma group from Bogor, Selamat's group? What are your interests? Hoping to hear from you, Nina. Op 20-okt-2009, om 17:03 heeft lily_purnomo686@... het volgende geschreven: > Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Lily Purnomo, #101523 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a makeable world nilovg Hi Colette, I am not sure it is an English word, we use it in Dutch. Nina. Op 20-okt-2009, om 20:50 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > A makeable world; pardon me, is that PLAYDO or is it PLASTIC? #101524 From: "Christine" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:43 pm Subject: Re: Newbie from Indonesia christine_fo... Hello Lily, Welcome! I hope you find DSG helpful and supportive. We had another member with the same surname "Purnomo" - this was David who lived in Bali. I often wonder how he is getting on. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5901 metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #101525 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] a makeable world upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lodewijk) - In a message dated 10/20/2009 2:35:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I was thinking over what you wrote: N: This makes me think of Lodewijk's book, where he speaks all the time about the fact that the world is 'makeable'. -------------------------------------------- I like the phrase. :-) -------------------------------------------- One can do something about progress, no passive attitude, engagement, no cynism. ------------------------------------------- Yes. :-) ------------------------------------------- Of course we know that the outcome of our efforts depend on many complex conditions. ------------------------------------------- And also very much yes! We can do much, but we are far from all-powerful. (BTW, please read all my 'we' usages as being enclosed in quotes!) ------------------------------------------- Someone wrote that his book should be obligatory reading for the class of young diplomats. ------------------------------------------- How nice! And I'm sure quite true!! :-) ------------------------------------------- Nina. =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101526 From: "egberdina" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:41 pm Subject: Re: Citta = whole . If "whole" do not exist, then citta doesn't really exist. egberdina Hi Alex,Howard, ptaus1 and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > Vinnana is "formed" when internal and external ayatana come together. In other words it is a sort of a "whole", and as some people argue - the wholes do not really exist - just like a car doesn't exist outside of its parts. > Wholes, like parts, are simply the products of the acts that produce them. Wholes result from an act of synthesis, parts from an act of analysis. What is determining for what is experienced is the act. In a manner of speaking, you find what you go looking for. There is a parallel in physics. When you study matter as particles that is what you see. If you study matter as a wave, that is what you see. Cheers Herman #101527 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:47 pm Subject: Re: Every word...satipatthana ( was characteristic of thinking) kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > Dear Ken H, Rob K, Nina & all, > > We had quite a lot of discussion on points which have been raised by Ken > H and discussed at length over the last few months on the following, as > in #98690 > > > >Ken H: "I think K Sujin is quoted as having said: "The Buddha taught > satipatthana, and every word of his teaching is to be understood in > terms of satipatthana." <. . .> --------------- Hi Sarah, It could be argued that the word "understood" was a synonym for satipatthana, in which case there would be no argument. :-) But to be fair I'll admit we are also talking about understanding in the conventional sense of "comprehending" or "following a line of reasoning." And so it could be asked "did the Buddha ever engage in conversations (or lines of reasoning) that were to be understood as *not* satipatthana?" That might not be an important question, but anyway . . . Mike has suggested that the Buddha's remarks on teeth cleaning were not part of satipatthana. I think they could have been. Satipatthana (panna; the ultimate traveller on the Middle Way) is neither of the two extremes, and, therefore, a monk could be seen to be observing panna outwardly by neither pandering to, nor neglecting, his physical welfare (including his oral hygiene). We have also mentioned "friendly greetings" as possible non-satipatthana-related conversations. But such greetings could be taken as *part of* ensuing conversations about satipatthana. What if someone had no interest in satipathana, and wanted to talk to the Buddha solely about the weather, or some other mundane matter? Would there still have been friendly greetings? Or would the Buddha's attendants have kept that person away, denying him an audience? Anyway, thanks for raising these questions at the meetings. I have read the answers/comments several times. Whether I have learnt anything is another matter; I might be just interpreting them the way I want to. :-) Ken H #101528 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: cheating dhammas glenjohnann Hi Nina thanks for your response here. I have heard the term "cheating dhammas" often from Achan Sujin. I had a general sense of what was meant. This helps a lot. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ann, > Op 19-okt-2009, om 21:12 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > > > Cheating dhamma." Is it correct to say that what Achan Sujin means > > by this is that unless thinking, considering takes us closer to > > right understanding and or awareness of the nature of realities > > (ie. the thinking etc. is with right understanding) that we are > > cheating dhamma? > --------- > N vancaka dhammas, I wrote to Lukas about this, and > I quote again: > > N: Cheating dhammas, vancaka dhammas there is a whole text about this > on Rob K's forum, and see also messages of dsg: > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3543> > > 'These arise in a mind that has developed a certain disliking towards > akusalas. The akusala dhammas disguise themselves according to the > mind's 'tendency' or mentality' > I quote: <4. viriyarambhamukhena uddhaccang vangcethi > > One over-tries to calm the mind, over-tries to understand things he > thinks that he's developing viriya, but instead he's cheated by > uddhacca. > > 5. sikkhakamathamukhena kukkuccang vangcethi > > One who likes for moral restraint has the kusala - sikkhakamatha. But > when one starts to worry about the things done, thinking whether they > were allowed, not-allowed, etc., will develop the dvesha(dosa) rooted > santhapa. Eventually kukkucca, mistaking it for sikkhakamatha.> > read for vangceti: vanceti, the roman spelling is in the Sri Lanka way. > > What you are doing seems very noble but in fact you delude yourself, > not knowing the cittas exactly. There are motives behind it which are > not good, but one does not realise this. Lobha poses as kusala. > --------- > Nina. > #101529 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:24 pm Subject: Re: Citta = whole . If "whole" do not exist, then citta doesn't really exist. truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "egberdina" wrote: > > Hi Alex,Howard, ptaus1 and all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > > > Vinnana is "formed" when internal and external ayatana come together. In other words it is a sort of a "whole", and as some people argue - the wholes do not really exist - just like a car doesn't exist outside of its parts. > > > > Wholes, like parts, are simply the products of the acts that produce them. Wholes result from an act of synthesis, parts from an act of analysis. What is determining for what is experienced is the act. In a manner of speaking, you find what you go looking for. > > There is a parallel in physics. When you study matter as particles that is what you see. If you study matter as a wave, that is what you see. > > Cheers > > Herman > Hello Herman, Very interesting reply! With metta, Alex #101530 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:08 pm Subject: Profound Causality... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Dependent Origination is a Profound Causality! The Blessed Buddha once pointed out: This dependent origination is profound, Ananda, and profound it appears. Moreover, Ananda, it is through not knowing it, due to not comprehending it, that this generation has become a tangled coil, like a knotted ball of thread, snarled and twisted like creepers. It is because of not understanding that subtle causality of dependent origination, that this generation cannot find any way out of this Samsaric round of rebirths, with its many states of loss, painful unhappy destinies, and even purgatory hells. DN II 55 There is no one, not even in a dream, who has ever got out of this fearful round of rebirths, always destroying beings, unless he has cut through this wheel of becoming with the razor blade of understanding well whetted on the stone of sublime concentration. This cyclic sequence of cause of effect offers no footing owing to its great profundity, and is therefore hard to get a handle on due to the maze of complex details. Vism 586 Therefore, practising for his own and others' advantage and welfare, let any wise man practise deliberately and fully aware, so that he may begin to find a footing in the abysmal deeps of the profound principle of dependent origin! <...> Have a nice dependent day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #101531 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lukas: present moment. nilovg Dear Lukas, you said that you want to hear more about the present moment. Being aware of the present moment should not be empty words. Either a characteristic of naama appears or a characteristic of ruupa. I heard on a recording: < Some poeple become very discouraged, they do not want to continue studying the Dhamma. One should not have expectations as to the eradication of defilements. Then one would continue being ignorant of the truth. People do not know what appears now. Akusala arises because of condiitons, and kusala does not arise, also because of conditions. If one wanrts to 'do' something, one is already wrong. > Kh Sujin said that one should feel at ease (in Thai: sabaaj) with the Dhamma, thus, not strenuous. Is it not true that there is sometimes a reality that knows, and sometimes a reality that does not know? No need to name them nama and rupa, their characteristics just appear without thinking about them, without trying to know them. I read to Lodewijk from 'The World in the Buddhist Sense' something you may like, it is about the present moment: ****** Nina. #101532 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:42 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 2, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, When one begins to investigate the different phenomena of one’s life, one realizes that there is such an amount of ignorance. It is beneficial to realize this, because that is the beginning of understanding. There is ignorance of realities such as seeing, hearing or thinking. It is not known precisely when there is seeing and when there is attachment to what is seen. Realities arise and fall away very rapidly. There is clinging to the objects which are experienced and their arising and falling away is not realized. There is ignorance of the suffering and the unsatisfactoriness inherent in all conditioned realities. Ignorance and clinging are the conditions for rebirth into a new existence, for continuation in the cycle of birth and death. When there is rebirth, there is suffering again, there will again be old age, sickness and death. It is difficult to grasp the truth of dukkha, but one can begin to develop more understanding of the phenomena which appear in one’s life. The Buddha taught Dhamma in order that people could investigate all realities. The word “dhamma” has different meanings, but in its widest sense dhamma is everything which is real and which has its own characteristic. Seeing is dhamma, attachment is dhamma, anger is dhamma. They are realities which can be experienced by everybody. We can read about seeing, attachment or anger, but when these realities occur we can learn to distinguish their different characteristics. Knowledge of realities can be acquired through the study of the Abhidhamma, but this knowledge should be applied so that there can eventually be direct understanding of realities. We are full of attachment, anger, avarice, conceit, jealousy, full of defilements, but understanding of all these realities can be developed. If dislike, for example, would be suppressed, instead of knowing its characteristic when it appears, there would be ignorance of the way it is conditioned. It would not be known that it is attachment which conditions dislike. If there is ignorance of what is wholesome and what is unwholesome, wholesome qualities could not be developed. Understanding can be developed of the countless moments of attachment which arise after seeing, hearing and the other experiences through the senses. All realities arise because of their own conditions. ******* Nina. #101533 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:27 am Subject: All Pali Section Numbers Regarding Saasana Declining Process --- Re: Sex. . . abhidhammika Dear Robert K, Nina, Chris F, Alex How are you? Robert, you wrote to Sayadaw Dhammanando: "Look forward to reading all thse texts once you have the time. if you could send the pali and the exact citation the pali experts at the foundation will be able to quickly look them all up and then we get get some useful feedback..Hope your stay in Denmark goes well." Below are Pali Section numbers to the Sayadaw Dhammanando's 4 statements. There is no Section number, though, for Upasampadaaka.n.do, Siimavisodhaniipaa.tha. Those Pali experts you mentioned have to read Upasampadaaka.n.do from the beginning down to Roman page number 20 or so. Sayadaw's Statement 1: _______________________________________________ 1. The article's authors base their conclusion on the prediction of decline in the Vinaya Atthakathaa, and a parallel passage in the Anguttara Atthakathaa, but ignore a discrepant prediction also contained in the Anguttara Atthakathaa (commentary to a nameless sutta in the Pamaadaadi Vagga of the Ekanipaata). _____________________________________________________ For the above statement, please see Section 130, Dutiyapamaadaadi Vagga Va.n.nanaa, Ekanipaata, Anguttaranikaaya A.t.thakathaa. Sayadaw's Statement 2: _____________________________________________________ 2. They ignore the discrepant prediction in the Samyutta Atthakathaa (commentary to the Saddhammapa.tiruupaka Sutta). _____________________________________________________ For the above statement, please see Section 156, Saddhammappatiruupaka Suttava.n.nanaa, Kassapasamyuttam, Nidaanavagga A.t.thakathaa, Samyuttanikaaya A.t.thakathaa. Sayadaw's Statement 3: _____________________________________________ 3. They misunderstand the Digha Atthakathaa's commentary to the Sampasaadaniiya Sutta as being relevant only to the decline of the past dispensation of Kassapa Buddha. But the very reason for the commentary describing the decline of pa.tivedha in Kassapa's dispensation is that the Diigha-bhaa.nakas held that pa.tivedha in Gotama's dispensation would decline in an identical pattern (as attested in the Anguttara and Vinaya sub-commentaries). __________________________________________________________ For the above Statement 3, please see Section 161, Sampasaadaniiya Sutta Va.n.nanaa, Paathika Vaggo, Diighanikaaya A.t.thakathaa. Sayadaw's Statement 4: ________________________________________________________ 4. They neglect all of the sub-commentarial and Vinaya treatises in which these discrepancies are addressed. These are chiefly the Saaratthadiipanii.tiikaa to the Vinaya Pi.taka, the .tiikaa to the Anguttara Nikaaya, and two other Vinaya treatises: the Siimavisodhanii and Vimativinodanii. _______________________________________________________ For the above statement, please see Section 403, A.t.thagarudhammava.n.nanaa, Saaratthadiipanii.tiikaa (Cuulavaggo, Vinaya Pi.taka .Tiikaa), Section 403, Mahaapajaapatigotamiivatthukathaava.n.nanaa, Bhikhunikkhandhako, Vimativinodanii .Tiikaa, and Upasampadaaka.n.do, Siimavisodhaniipaa.tha. Also, please see Section 130, Dutiyapamaadaadi Vagga Va.n.nanaa, Ekanipaata, Anguttaranikaaya .Tiikaa. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw wwww.bodhiology.org #101534 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) sarahprocter... Hi pt, --- On Sun, 11/10/09, ptaus1 wrote: #101237 > S: A quick interruption - in what way is this a "samatha bhavana sitting" or samatha bhavana anything, when there are "a lot of akusala moments"? >pt: In the same way that a dry insight "informal" daily practice is ;) ... S: hmmm, I think we have to look at cittas rather than any situations before referring to any "practice". ... >I mean, the initial half an hour or so of a formal samatha sitting tends to have mostly akusala moments with a few flashes of kusala (except in the case of those who have mastery of jhana and can enter it immediately) - and this is very much the same as informal practice - most of daily experiences are bound to be akusala with only a few flashes of kusala calm and panna. So, I don't really see a difference between formal and informal approaches so far. .... S: So can we say in any case, any situation, that the bhavana (samatha or vipassana) only refers to moments of kusala accompanied by understanding accordingly? I wouldn't refer to any so-called "formal" or "informal" practice as bhavana. .... >> S: Again, I think that samatha bhavana comes down to moments of right understanding and calm, such as if we happen to be wisely reflecting on the Buddha's virtues now. I don't think it has anything to do with deciding to have a "samatha bhavana sitting/practice" now or later. >pt: This one's a little tricky to agree with because you offer a very specific definition of "samatha bhavana" as a moment of calm when right understanding arises. I have no problem with such use of the term, but then we have to come up with a new general term for the states which start to occur after the initial period of a formal samatha sitting, .... S: I think we have to keep in mind what is meant by "samatha" and "bhavana" in the teachings. Nowhere is there mention of a "formal samatha sitting" that I know of, or the use of "samatha" to refer to a mixed bag of mental states whilst in a sitting position. The same applies to "bhavana" and "meditation". ... >that is, when akusala moments start to decrease and more kusala moments start to arise. We can still call these individual kusala moments "samatha bhavana" according to your definition, .... S: Only if they really are kusala cittas with wisdom. This is where the "cheating dhammas" come in again - it's so very easy to take moments of feeling peaceful and relaxed, without anxiety or disturbance, for being kusala calm. This is especially so if that is one's goal or expectation at such a time. Usually, however, when we feel peaceful and calm without disturbance, it's lobha again. Lobha is very, very crafty. ... >but then, how would we call the overall increase in kusala thanks to overall suppression of hindrances? Usually, that's what people call "samatha bhavana". Granted, at this stage, there are still moments of akusala, but not nearly as many as in daily experiences, nor as during the initial period of a formal samatha sitting. ... S: I'd say there's no point in 'counting' or calling it anything. Otherwise we cling again to such experiences and wish to have more. Just insignificant dhammas, as Alberto said the other day. It's all gone. What about now? ... >Anyway, I'll call this stage "samatha development" for now, but please let me know if there's a better term for it (I was thinking of calling it "jhana development" , but then, the stages I'm describing here precede jhana proper). ... S: Only panna can ever know at the present moment. If someone else reports to you that they had a lot of kusala calm whilst sitting, who knows? Panna or Avijja? ... >> S: And is there any clinging or attachment to having such [kusala] moments increase? >pt: Yes, I think this is an equally valid question regarding samatha development as much as it is for an informal practice, no difference. ... S: Yes, attachment is attachment. However, the most dangerous kind of attachment is that with wrong view. If there's an idea of 'doing' anything special in order to have awareness, it's wrong, as I see it. ... <...> >pt: I agree with the details of what you're saying above, but the overall tone of it seems a bit antagonistic towards people who are into samatha development. ... S:..or who wrongly think that they "are into samatha development" and are "pracising" or "developing" it whenever they sit in meditation for that purpose. ... >I mean, the goal of samatha development is not insight, and therefore, we can't really expect insight and liberation to come from samatha development alone. So, comparing samatha development and insight on the merits of insight alone isn't entirely politically correct so to speak ;) ... S: Whatever dhammas we're referring to, they're conditioned and beyond any expectation. We have no idea what dhammas will arise in the next few moments even. So to expect "samatha development" from purposely trying to make it happen at a particular time of day seems to more about Self-view than about any undersanding of such conditioned dhammas or bhavana. ... >...I mean, I guess it's because of accumulations that some people can progress in insight through study alone. For others, these same insights could happen with a little study and a relative seclusion from hindrances provided by samatha development (when approaching or exiting jhana). ... S: We have to be careful of this word "study". Any insight only occurs through the "study" or understanding of present realities, of namas and rupas. If we have not come across the Teachings and listened/read in a way that explains about such dhammas, then such "study" will not occur and develop. At these moments of "study" or development of understanding, the cittas are calm, there is samatha development as well. As I mentioned to Alex yesterday, at such moments there is also "seclusion" form attachment and the other hindrances. Attempting to find a quiet seat, attempting to be rid of hindrances, attempting an approach to jhana, will not lead to either samatha or vipassana bhavana, I believe. The reason is that such attempts are motivated by attachment and mis-understanding of bhavana, samatha and vipassana. ... >Still for others (that are in majority I think), a lot of both is required in different combinations, etc. Different accumulations - different practices. Don't see why there should be any antagonism between people who are predisposed to dry insight, and people who are predisposed to samatha development, and people who are predisposed to both. Just my speculations anyway. ... S: I agree with you that any antagonism is unhelpful and that is certainly not intended in what I say. I'm not at all sure I agree with you about this being a dispute between "people who are predisposed to dry insight, and people who are predisposed to samatha development, and people who are predisposed to both." however. I think we need to keep considering what is meant by these terms, what samatha is, what kusala is, what bhavana is and so on. I appreciate your efforts to find common ground between those you associate with in this regard. Let's keep discussing... Metta Sarah ========== #101535 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Does weight of kamma depend on others? sarahprocter... Dear pt, --- On Sun, 11/10/09, ptaus1 wrote: >pt: It was probably A history of Pali literature by Bimala Churn Law that you recently mentioned, so I added the links to that as well. ... S: Many thanks! Metta Sarah p.s. I greatly appreciated your posts to Howard and others on the Sangiti issue while we were away. And there was another one, I've forgottne....add that too! ====== #101536 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fw: DSG Welcome info sarahprocter... Hi Staisha, >F/W note from Staisha >thank you for the welcome. I live in arizona, for àlmost 7yrs i have been buddhist & trying change just from belief, to freedom À friend told me that he stumbled across vipassana letters online, we study theravada & mayhayana. We are in the same situation.. I study sutta & vipassana have been searching for others who have more understanding by investing other than books, meditation only or hearsay. Thank you kindly, peace in the way. Im using cëll, am limited to content -staisha ... Sarah: A delayed thanks for this note. I'm glad to see you've settled in well now. I like your questions. James also comes from Arizona, but now lives outside the States. Short content is fine, don't worry. Metta Sarah ======= #101537 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:10 am Subject: All Pali Section Numbers Regarding Saasana Declining Process --- Re: Sex. . . rjkjp1 thanks Suan I will try to get soem feedback on these sections. robert #101538 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Pali Section Numbers Regarding Saasana Declining Process --- Re: Sex. . . nilovg Dear Suan (and Han), thank you for taking the trouble mentioning different texts. For the average reader with only some basic knowledge of Pali, me including, it would take a lifetime to find all these texts and translate them. I admire Ven. Dhammanando's and your knowledge of the texts. It may be a burden to you to translate perhaps one of these? I know your time is limited. Or could Han help with his Burmese texts? But I hesitate to ask this. Nina. Op 16-okt-2009, om 10:58 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > 1. The article's authors base their conclusion on the prediction of > decline in the Vinaya Atthakathaa, and a parallel passage in the > Anguttara Atthakathaa, but ignore a discrepant prediction also > contained in the Anguttara Atthakathaa (commentary to a nameless > sutta in the Pamaadaadi Vagga of the Ekanipaata). > _____________________________________________________ > > For the above statement, please see Section 130, Dutiyapamaadaadi > Vagga Va.n.nanaa, Ekanipaata, Anguttaranikaayo. #101539 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:12 am Subject: [dsg] Some Pali Section Numbers Regarding Saasana Declining Process --- Re: Sex. . . abhidhammika Dear Nina, Robert K, Han, Chris F, Alex How have you been? Nina wrote: "It may be a burden to you to translate perhaps one of these? I know your time is limited." I will try my best to translate at least some passages of A.t.thakathaa Pali texts. This evening (21 - 10 - 09), I have been reading Saddhammappatiruupaka Suttam and its commentary. I find them to be very fascinating. Excepting commentaries on Jaataka, Dhammapada, Vimaana and Visuddhimaggo, there are no Burmese translations of commentaries, to my knowledge. But, there are Pali-Burmese nissaya texts on most standard commentaries and subcommentaries, both published and unpublished. As there are many Buddhist universities, thounsands perhaps, all over Myanmar, each univesrity may produce their own versions of the Pali-Burmese nissaya texts, usually called 'Saa Cha Net' (lecture records). These Saa Cha Nets start as works in progress in the course of the Saacha Sayadaw (lecturer monk, usually a Dhammaacariya, a doctorate holder of Dhamma) giving lecures on a commentary to the student monks. When a particular Buddhist university decided to publish those Saa Cha Nets, they are called Nissaya texts. Otherwise, they remain as Saa Cha Nets, letcure records, at those Buddhsit universities since the ancient times. Of couse, lecturer monks at some Buddhist universities may also use old standard published Nissaya texts or their former lecturers' Saa Cha Nets. Pali-Burmese nissaya texts are not traslations as we know it. They are lecture records for both the students and teachers of Pali. I wish Han had some spare time to study Pali grammar at least at a basic level, if he had not had already done so. With some knowledge of Pali grammar, Han would be able to consult Pali-Burmese nissaya texts. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #101540 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary moellerdieter Hi Connie, just a few additional comments .. you wrote: 'I think A iii 348 must be somewhere in the Migasaala Sutta, book of sixes ii (44). "Verily, Ananda, he digs a pit for himself who measures the measure of persons." etc. Also an interesting footnote in there: Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Pali Section Numbers Regarding Saasana Declining Process --- Re: Sex. . . nilovg Dear Suan, I read with great interest what you said about the Pali-Burmese Nissayas. Thank you very much, Nina. Op 21-okt-2009, om 17:12 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > As there are many Buddhist universities, thounsands perhaps, all > over Myanmar, each univesrity may produce their own versions of the > Pali-Burmese nissaya texts, usually called 'Saa Cha Net' (lecture > records). #101542 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apa kabar. Newbie from Indonesia nilovg Dear Lily, Please allow me to answer your kind letter online, thus in dhammastudygroup. They are all interested in what you write. We do write also personal news on dsg, we are all friends. Op 21-okt-2009, om 15:53 heeft lily_purnomo686@... het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina, > Hello apa kabar, saya kabar baik. > Are you also Indonesian? --------- N: I am Dutch but I learnt Bahasa Indonesia while in Jakarta, three and a half years. We left 25 years ago. My husband was there Duta Besar Belanda. When visiting projects in the provinces and he made addresses, I had to be his interpretor. But I did not keep up my Bahasa. I forgot it. -------- > > L: I haven't got a chance to meet the Selamat Group. I usually went > to vihara Jakarta Dhammacakka Jaya at Sunter. > Well, usually means: on holy day only hahaha..guilt guilt feeling ;-) -------- > N: I was once in a vihara in Jakarta and I think that was the same > one. I know the Bogor friends only from correspondance. -------- L: > I love music, movies, and reading. Just usual hobby. I work in real > estate industry. ----- N: This is daily life and the Buddha teaches us to know ourselves, our different moments of consciousness in daily life, also when pursuing our hobbies. We all have different interests, and this is because of our past inclinations we accumulated. We just live naturally, but we can learn about ourselves. ---------- > > L: So tell me bout yourself. I would love to make new friendship :-) > Until then Nina! ------- N: Through the Dhamma you will make many new friends here. Perhaps you are overwhelmed by the Emails posted here. I would say: do ask what is not clear. Any question, even a simple one is helpful, not only for you, but for all of us. Lately, our friend Lukas had many questions about problems he met in his daily life and all the mails answering him were so helpful for everybody, including myself. I have not much news about myself, except that I spend much time on the computer, answering mails, writing, revising my old books I wrote, etc. Learning Pali, helping to translate. Nina. #101543 From: han tun Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Pali Section Numbers Regarding Saasana Declining Process hantun1 Dear Nina and Suan, My Pali knowledge is limited to "matching" the Pali text with the English translation or the Burmese translation, and referring to Pali English Dictionary and Pali Burmese Dictionary. If you give me a Pali text without the matching English translation or the Burmese translation, I cannot understand it. If you just give me a Burmese text or an English text and ask me to translate it into Pali I cannot do it. I cannot even translate Burmese text into English precisely, word for word. In such a case, I can only give a gist of the Burmese text the way I understand it. Therefore, my Pali knowledge and my translation capability are very, very much limited. I thank Suan for suggesting me to learn Pali grammar. But at 83, I do not want to learn anything any more. As regards Pali-Burmese nissaya texts, I have been reading these for many years, and I can understand them. Respectfully, Han #101544 From: "colette" Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:10 pm Subject: Does it figure? ksheri3 Hi Group, Nina proposed, from my experience with the subject line, that the world, that the existance, that the cognition, can only be obtained as a resultant phenomina of the Buddha's words --- fine, I acknowledge the position that exists which dictate the exclusive adherebnce to this doctrine which the Buddha said. Did the Buddha say these things? How can I be sure that the buddha said these things and dictated these things? <...> Nina poposes the application of a "maleable" consciousenss, a maleable world. Is this not the same as a world of MIND-ONLY? Is Nina suggesting that the mind has the ability to manifest a reality? What? You say that the "mind-consciousness" cannot possibly be so implemental? I get it, a blind person has no sensory perceptions and cannot feel the presence of another person? <...> "It feels like the first time" Foreigner toodles, colette #101545 From: "nsdragonman" Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:56 pm Subject: Dhamma Books in the US for Free! nsdragonman Dear Dhamma Bums, Bev and I are about to leave for Thailand for 5 months and noticed we have several copies of some Dhamma books that are just taking shelf space here. It seems crazy to take them back to Thailand if there is someone in the west that might like them. So we would be pleased to send them to anyone who wants them! Here is our inventory Abidhamma In Daily Life 1990 edition 2 copies Realities and Concepts 3 copies A survey of Paramattha Dhammas 4 copies Conditions: An outline of the 24 Paccaya 1 copy Let us know ASAP or you will need to wait until April 2010 ! regards tom and bev #101546 From: han tun Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:18 pm Subject: Anusaya Yamaka: Four dhaatus hantun1 Dear Nina, > > > Nina: When four dhaatus are mentioned we know that it refers to the four planes (bhuumi) of citta: kamaavacara, ruupajhaana, aruupajhaana and the 'unincluded', namely lokuttara. > > Han: I have already accepted that the three dhaatus (kaama dhaatu, ruupa dhaatu, aruupa dhaatu) represent the planes of cittas. I do not know that "four" dhaatus are mentioned in Anusaya Yamaka. > Nina: You are right, and I think we shall come across this. -------------------- Han: In another Burmese book, under Okaasa vaara of Anusaya Yamaka, I found a table which gives the following information: (1) Dukkha vedanaa (3) = pa.tighaanusaya, di.t.thaanusaya, vicikicchaanusaya, avijjaanusaya. (2) Kaama dhaatu vedanaa (2) = kaamaanusaya, maanaanusaya, di.t.thaanusaya, vicikicchaanusaya, avijjaanusaya. (3) Ruupa dhaatu, Aruupa dhaatu = maanaanusaya, di.t.thaanusaya, vicikicchaanusaya, avijjaanusaya, bhavaraagaanusaya. (4) Apariyaapanna dhammas = none of the anusayas. So, I was wondering whether Apariyaapanna dhammas are the 'unincluded' lokuttara dhammas that you mentioned? [apariyaapannaa (dhammaa) = the Unincluded (viz. all that is exempt from this cycle): PTS Dictionary] I also notice from the above that di.t.thaanusaya, vicikicchaanusaya, avijjaanusaya are present in all three dhaatus. Respectfully, Han #101547 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:10 pm Subject: Neither Being nor Person ... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: No Being exists apart from Mentality-Materiality... There is no "person" neither inside, nor outside the duality of Name-and-Form: Feeling, perception, mental construction and consciousness defines all Mentality. The 4 primary elements: Solidity, fluidity, heat & motion defines all Materiality. After defining mentality-materiality one can leave the common concept "a being" and "a person" more thoroughly, since these now are seen more realistically as compounded accumulated collections of mentality-&-materiality, name-&-form... Strictly speaking: This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person! As the Blessed Buddha expressed it at various levels of generalization: As with the assembly of parts, the designation "car" emerges as conceptualized, So, when the 5 clusters of clinging are present, "a being" is named by convention... SN I 135 Just as when a part of space is enclosed with timber & bricks, there comes to be the term "house", so too, when a space is enclosed with bones, sinews, flesh, fat and skin, there comes into being the designation "body". MN I 190 It is ill (Dukkha) alone that arises, ill that remains, ill that vanishes! Nothing else than ill arises, and nothing else than ill ceases...SN I 135 This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person, no substance! <....> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <....> #101548 From: "egberdina" Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:24 pm Subject: Re: Does it figure? egberdina Hi colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Nina poposes the application of a "maleable" consciousenss, a maleable world. Is this not the same as a world of MIND-ONLY? Is Nina suggesting that the mind has the ability to manifest a reality? > I agree with Nina/Lodewijk when they say the world is malleable ("maakbaar"). By this I do not understand that the world is mind-only, but that what we do in the world, our actions, are not determined by the world we have inherited. And neither are the meanings we give to that inherited world. Cheers Herman #101549 From: "connie" Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:03 pm Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (50) nichiconn Dear Friends, Finishing up the Fours, replacing #1015050, continuing from #101108 Fours (48-49) (cy: #101231, #101297): CSCD < Paduma (nt.) [cp. Epic Sk. padma, not in RV.] the lotus Nelumbium speciosum. It is usually mentioned in two varieties, viz. ratta- and seta-, i. e. red and white lotus. The latter seems to be the more prominent variety; but paduma also includes the 3 other colours (blue, yellow, pink?), since it frequently has the designation of pa~ncava.n.na-paduma (the 5 colours however are nowhere specified). It is further classified as satapatta and sahassapatta-p., viz. lotus with 100 & with 1,000 leaves. Compared with other species at J V.37, where 7 kinds are enumd as uppala (blue, red & white), paduma (red & white), kumuda (white) and kallahaara. -- (1) the lotus or lotus flower M III.93; S I.138, 204; A I.145; II.86 sq.; III.26, 239. -- (2) N. of a purgatory (-niraya) S I.151--152. Pu.n.dariika (nt.) [Non--Aryan (?). Cp. Vedic pu.n.dariika] the white lotus D I.75=A III.26 (in sequence uppala, paduuma, p.); D II.4 (Sikhii pu.n.dariikassa muule abhisambuddho); M III.93; S I.138, 204=J III.309; A I.145 (uppala paduma p.); II.86 sq. (sama.na- adj.); Sn 547; J V.45, 215 (-ttac' angii=ratta--paduma--patta--va.n.nasariiraa). N. of a hell S I.152. Sukhumaala (adj.) [cp. Sk. su-kumaara] tender, delicate, refined, delicately nurtured A I.145; II.86 sq.; III.130; Vin I.15, 179; II.180; beautifully young, graceful J I.397; sama.na- -- a soft, graceful Sama.na A II.87. (mo: here if this is su+kumara this could be "sweet-prince"; but I hear: sukha + maalaa; sweet flowering; which I hear as "culmination".) ***rd: 4.50Interpreted as those in the Four Paths. CSCD < Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:15 pm Subject: Dhs. The arising of consciousness - breaking it down, empty of self sprlrt Hi, The following two sections of the Dhammasangani take into account only the nàma-dhammas arising at that moment, leaving out the object/àrammana of that consciousness, which would include concepts/paññatti. Alberto The arising of consciousness (cittuppada) .... [#101204 1st maha kusala citta, accompanied by mental pleasure and associated with understanding] Breaking it down [through paññà] 58. At that moment there are just: four khandhas, two àyatanas, two elements, three nutriments, eight faculties, five factors of jhàna, five factors of the path, seven powers, three roots, there is just: one contact, one feeling, one memory, one intention, one consciousness, the khandha of feeling, that of memory, that of consciousness and that of its concomitants, the àyatana of the mind, the faculty of the mind, the element of mind-consciousness, the àyatana of [whatever other paramattha] dhamma, the element of [whatever other paramattha] dhamma, and whatever other non-rùpa dhamma arisen by conditions at that moment. These dhammas are kusala. ... Its emptiness 121. At that moment there are just: dhammas, khandhas, àyatanas, elements, nutriments, faculties, jhàna, the path, powers, roots, there is just: contact, feeling, memory, intending, consciousness, the khandha of feeling, that of memory, that of consciousness and that of its concomitants, the àyatana of the mind, the faculty of the mind, the element of mind-consciousness, the àyatana of [whatever other paramattha] dhamma, the element of [whatever other paramattha] dhamma, and whatever other non-rùpa dhamma arisen by conditions at that moment. These dhammas are kusala. #101551 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Pali Section Numbers Regarding Saasana Declining Process nilovg Dear Han, Op 21-okt-2009, om 22:44 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > As regards Pali-Burmese nissaya texts, I have been reading these > for many years, and I can understand them. ------- N: Fascinating. it would be nice if you could tell us the gist of some of these. Thanks in advance :-)) Nina. #101552 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Does it figure? nilovg Hi Colette and Herman, it is makeable (sp makable?), correctly said maakbaar in Dutch. Thanks for your interest, Nina. Op 22-okt-2009, om 0:24 heeft egberdina het volgende geschreven: > agree with Nina/Lodewijk when they say the world is malleable > ("maakbaar"). #101553 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anusaya Yamaka: Four dhaatus nilovg Dear Han, Op 21-okt-2009, om 23:18 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > So, I was wondering whether Apariyaapanna dhammas are the > 'unincluded' lokuttara dhammas that you mentioned? ------- N: Apariyaapamma dhammas, correct. These are the nine lokuttara dhammas: nibbaana and the lokuttara cittas that experience nibbaana. -------- > > H: [apariyaapannaa (dhammaa) = the Unincluded (viz. all that is > exempt from this cycle): PTS Dictionary] > > I also notice from the above that di.t.thaanusaya, > vicikicchaanusaya, avijjaanusaya are present in all three dhaatus. ------ N: correct. They are dormant in kaamaavacara cittas, ruupa- jhaanacittas an aruupa-jhaanacittas so long as the latent tendencies have not been eradicated. Thus, they do not inhere in the cittas of the ariyans who have eradicated these, in accordance with the stage of enlightenment they have attained. For the arahat, they do not inhere in his kaamaavacaara cittas, not in ruupa-jhaana kiriyacittas nor aruupa-jhaana kiriyacittas. ------- Nina. #101554 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:11 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 2, no 10. nilovg Dear friends, The development of direct understanding of realities is the Path leading to the end of dukkha. The development of this Path is very gradual and takes a long time. The characteristics of the different realities which appear have to be thoroughly investigated and understood. In that way it can be gradually seen that they arise each because of their own conditions. What arises because of conditions has to fall away, it is impermanent. The impermanence of realities, their momentary breaking up, can only be realized at a later stage of the development of understanding. Eventually there can be the realization of the fact that all conditioned realities which arise and fall away are dukkha. There are different degrees of understanding the Truth of dukkha. When one attains enlightenment one has understood the Truth of dukkha, of the origin of dukkha, of the ceasing of dukkha and of the way leading to the ceasing of dukkha. ****** Nina. #101555 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:41 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Books in the US for Free! szmicio Dear Bev and Tom (also Nina) I would be interested in Conditions: An outline of the 24 paccayas. Thanks very much. That's great dana. I hope you'll enojoy your stay i Thailand. Are you gonna visit Khun Sujin? Best wishes Lukas > Here is our inventory > > Abidhamma In Daily Life 1990 edition 2 copies > Realities and Concepts 3 copies > A survey of Paramattha Dhammas 4 copies > Conditions: An outline of the 24 Paccaya 1 copy #101556 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Pali Section Numbers Regarding Saasana Declining Process hantun1 Dear Nina (Suan), Pali-Burmese Nissaya Texts are nothing new to us. It is basically the translation of the Pali text into Burmese, but it takes a different format. It is more than word-for-word translation. More Pali words, more Burmese words and more explanations are added in the translation. For example please look at the following Pali sentence from Satipa.t.thaana sutta. "Anissito ca viharati. Na ca ki~nci loke upaadiyati. Evampi bhikkhave bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati". The above sentence will be translated in Pali-Burmese Nissaya text like this: [so bhikkhu] = the monk; [anissito ca] = without clinging to the out-breath and in-breath with ta.nhaa and di.t.thi; [viharati] = stay. [loke] = the world which here means upaadaanakkhandhaa; [ki~nci] = any ruupa, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa"nkhaara, vi~n~naa.na as something I have control (with atta) with di.t.thi, or something I possess (with attiniya) with ta.nhaa; [na ca upaadiyati] = not attached. [bhikkhave] = the monks; [evampikho] = like that; [bhikkhu] = the monk; [kaaye] = in ruupa kaaya; [kaayaanupassii] = contemplating ruupa kaaya repeatedly; [viharati] = stay. Thus the nissaya text is a combination of the Pali words and Burmese words, and the Pali words are not necessary in the same sequence as in the original Pali text. Besides, there are also additional words in the translation. For example, "ki~nci" can simply be translated as "something". But please see how many words are there to translate just one word "ki~nci". But the idea of nissaya text is to understand the Pali text better. We have that sort of nissaya translations for many Pali books. Perhaps, Suan may also have something to say on this. Respectfully, Han #101557 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Glad to continue. > S: So can we say in any case, any situation, that the bhavana (samatha or vipassana) only refers to moments of kusala accompanied by understanding accordingly? I wouldn't refer to any so-called "formal" or "informal" practice as bhavana. pt: Yes, I think we can say that, but only if distinguishing factors are kusala and understanding. If we also consider the factors of concentration and panna (their kinds/levels in particular), then I don't think we can say that. > >> S: Again, I think that samatha bhavana comes down to moments of right understanding and calm, such as if we happen to be wisely reflecting on the Buddha's virtues now. I don't think it has anything to do with deciding to have a "samatha bhavana sitting/practice" now or later. pt: Similarly, I don't think that absorption level, or even access levels of concentration can occur unless the body is still (I think I read that Sariputta could cycle all the way from the first jhana to nirodha samapati and back in the few moments while a householder was putting food into his almsbowl so that the act of giving would bring maximum merit to the householder, however, I think that for most of us ordinary people, it'd be hard to enter absorption while walking, talking etc). So if we are considering the level/kind of concentration, it seems there's a necessity to distinguish between bhavana of dry insight practice (since it relies mostly on momentary concentration) and bhavana of samatha development or however we call it (which relies first on momentary concentration, then access, and then absorption levels). So, this would be the basic difference on single citta level I guess. If considered in more conventional terms (more than a single citta at a time), then I guess the difference is that in samatha development the hindranaces are absent for a long periods of time thanks to access or absorption level concentration. > S: Whatever dhammas we're referring to, they're conditioned and beyond any expectation. We have no idea what dhammas will arise in the next few moments even. So to expect "samatha development" from purposely trying to make it happen at a particular time of day seems to more about Self-view than about any undersanding of such conditioned dhammas or bhavana. ... Attempting to find a quiet seat, attempting to be rid of hindrances, attempting an approach to jhana, will not lead to either samatha or vipassana bhavana, I believe. The reason is that such attempts are motivated by attachment and mis-understanding of bhavana, samatha and vipassana. pt: While I agree in principle, perhaps we are conflating things a bit here. I mean chanda can be both wholesome and unwholesome. So, even if a person sits down to meditate with an unwholesome chanda - it will still not last for longer than one citta, so I don't necessarily see the need to immediately assume that the entire 2 hours of a formal sitting will be uniformly made out of unwholesome cittas. Especially since the issue at stake is to notice if the present moment has unwholesome elements in the first place. Hence my previous liking of the expression that kusala bhavana can happen "in spite of" unwholesome habits. > S: I agree with you that any antagonism is unhelpful and that is certainly not intended in what I say. I'm not at all sure I agree with you about this being a dispute between "people who are predisposed to dry insight, and people who are predisposed to samatha development, and people who are predisposed to both." however. pt: Sorry, I then misunderstood the "tone" of your post. > I think we need to keep considering what is meant by these terms, what samatha is, what kusala is, what bhavana is and so on. I appreciate your efforts to find common ground between those you associate with in this regard. Let's keep discussing... pt: I'm grateful for this discussion. Also, I apologise to others since many are probably sick of this topic of formal meditation vs dry insight practice, but I find it helps me to learn when I try to express this properly, so the discussion seems useful. Thanks. Best wishes pt #101558 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta ptaus1 Hi Howard, > Not necessarily. I've heard others describing much the same thing. In > any case, what you perceived is what you perceived. Neither you nor I know > for sure to what if any extent it was a misperception. Only time (and > consequence) will determine that. Thanks Howard, that seems like a healthy way to consider it. Best wishes pt #101559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:52 am Subject: anumodana, Books from Malaysia nilovg Dear Chew, I like to express my appreciation to you and to the ehipassiko association for reprinting 'The Perfections leading to Enlightenment" by Kh Sujin. The books arrived today and many thanks! Anumodana, Nina. #101560 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Pali Section Numbers Regarding Saasana Declining Process nilovg Dear Han, Op 22-okt-2009, om 11:46 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > [so bhikkhu] = the monk; [anissito ca] = without clinging to the > out-breath and in-breath with ta.nhaa and di.t.thi; [viharati] = > stay. [loke] = the world which here means upaadaanakkhandhaa; > [ki~nci] = any ruupa, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa"nkhaara, vi~n~naa.na as > something I have control (with atta) with di.t.thi, or something I > possess (with attiniya) with ta.nhaa; [na ca upaadiyati] = not > attached. ------- N: Just wonderful. Ki~nci: whatever: He does not take any of the khandhas (naama and ruupa) for atta, for self, for something he can control or possess. He must have developed also vipassanaa, not merely concentration on breath. I think these kinds of explanations are very good. Hoping to hear more from such nissayas, Nina. #101561 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) nilovg Dear pt and Sarah, Op 22-okt-2009, om 12:00 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > S: I agree with you that any antagonism is unhelpful and that is > certainly not intended in what I say. I'm not at all sure I agree > with you about this being a dispute between "people who are > predisposed to dry insight, and people who are predisposed to > samatha development, and people who are predisposed to both." however. > > pt: > Sorry, I then misunderstood the "tone" of your post. ------ N: This is a good discussion between both of you without misunderstandings about the tone of the posts. No antagonism. ------- > > Sarah: > I think we need to keep considering what is meant by these > terms, what samatha is, what kusala is, what bhavana is and so on. > I appreciate your efforts to find common ground between those you > associate with in this regard. Let's keep discussing... > > pt: > I'm grateful for this discussion. Also, I apologise to others since > many are probably sick of this topic of formal meditation vs dry > insight practice, but I find it helps me to learn when I try to > express this properly, so the discussion seems useful. Thanks. ------ N: No, we are not bored. Your discussion in itself is a good example that it can be with calm. Then both parties will understand each other better, even they have different points of view. Nina. #101562 From: "colette" Date: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:46 am Subject: Touche, Bless you! ksheri3 Thank you for such a determined exposition of a relative realtiy! I submit to your acknowledgement! I love it! PLEASE ALLOW ME TO HAVE A SAY IN THIS MATTER. > By this I do not understand that the world is mind-only, but that colette: NOPE. YA CAN'T RUN FROM A SIDE TO ANOTHER SIDE. Okay, lets view this from the side that you have taken: I propose that the doctrine is interpreted as through the ENTIRETY OF HUMANITY and you proposess that a singularity exists which excludes them from the performances of the dotrine. I have no problem with that psychology and that behavior since that begavior and that psychology is the exact defintion of the CASTE SYSTEM. I have no problem with your adherence to this slave psychology. Just admit that you adhere to and advertise the slave psychology which the Hindus indoctrinated Shakyammuni Buddha before he became the Buddha, IS THE PSYCHOLOGY AND HE BEHAVIORS THAT WERE/ARE IMPOSED UPON A VAST NUMBER OF PEOPLE, oh, shall I raise the the stupidity of this word AGGREGATE, and therefore bring forth the ABIDHARMA? <....> -------------------------------------------- WHAT IS THIS LUNACY CALLED "MIND-ONLY"? HOW DARE YOU CONCEIVE THAT THE MIND ONLY SCHOOL OF BUDDHISM RELATES TO THE THERAVADAN BUDDHISM which is commonly distrubuted to the masses of slaves? Buddha spoke specfically about SLAVERY and the processor to free an individual of the YOKE of slavery. Is it possible that the word YOKE is defined as YOGA? Thank you HERMAN! No I dc not agree with you at all! I have only a few minutes left to find Nina's response to me. If we need further discussion on this topic, I don't see how we can not possibly need discussion on this topic nor any topic, then we can get it togehter later, but now, I've gotta focus on Nina. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "egberdina" wrote: > > Hi colette, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Nina poposes the application of a "maleable" consciousenss, a maleable world. Is this not the same as a world of MIND-ONLY? Is Nina suggesting that the mind has the ability to manifest a reality? > > > > I agree with Nina/Lodewijk when they say the world is malleable ("maakbaar"). By this I do not understand that the world is mind-only, but that what we do in the world, our actions, are not determined by the world we have inherited. And neither are the meanings we give to that inherited world. > > Cheers > > Herman > #101563 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:41 pm Subject: The Siamese Twins... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Mentality & Materiality are Mutually Dependent: Interdependence of Mentality and Materiality; of the dual Name-and-Form: Mentality alone has no efficient power, it cannot eat, drink, speak, nor walk... Materiality alone is also without sufficient power, since it cannot do anything without orders and drive: It has neither desire to eat, drink, speak, nor walk... When materiality and mentality are joined together, these two twins can act: When mentality (mind) has a desire to eat, a desire to drink, a desire to speak, or a desire to walk, it is materiality (body) that eats, drinks, speaks & walks! Mentality and Materiality, Mind & Matter are Inseparable! Therefore did the Ancient Elders say: The mental and the material does really exist, But here there is no 'human being' to be found, For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll! Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks... The mental and the material: Name-and-Form Are Siamese Twins, that each supports the other: When one dies, they both die, surely inseparable, Due to the necessary mutual dependence... They cannot come to be by their own strength, Or even maintain themselves by their own power Depending on other states, weak in themselves, Conditioned and constructed, they come to be; They come to be, with others as crucial requirement. They are activated by others as if their controller, They are thus produced by object and condition, And each by something other, than itself... And just as men depend upon A boat for traversing the sea, So does the mental mind need the material body for real efficiency. And as the boat depends upon The men for traversing the sea, So does the material body need the mental mind for induction & control. Depending each upon the other. The boat and men can sail the seas. And so do both mind and matter Depend, the one, upon the other... Vism 597 <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #101564 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:48 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 3, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 3 The Truth of non-self All phenomena of life are impermanent and dukkha. Seeing, colour, hearing, sound, feeling, anger, greed or generosity, they all arise because of their own conditions and then they fall away immediately. There is no abiding ego or “self” who could cause the arising of these phenomena or exert control over them. Realities which are impermanent and dukkha are non-self. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense, First Fifty, Chapter 1, §1, impermanent, the personal) that the Buddha, while staying at the Jeta Grove near Såvatthí, said to the monks: The eye, monks, is impermanent. What is impermanent, that is dukkha. What is dukkha, that is void of the self. What is void of the self, that is not mine; I am not it; it is not my self. That is how it is to be regarded with perfect insight of what it really is. The ear is impermanent…The nose is impermanent…The tongue is impermanent…The body is impermanent…The mind is impermanent. What is impermanent, that is dukkha. What is dukkha, that is void of the self. What is void of the self, that is not mine; I am not it; it is not my self. That is how it is to be regarded with perfect insight of what it really is…. We then read that through insight all clinging to the senses and the mind is eradicated and that there are consequently no more conditions for rebirth. In the following suttas the same is said with regard to colour, sound, scent, savour, tangible object and mind-object. They are impermanent, dukkha and void of the self. ****** Nina. #101565 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Books in the US for Free! sarahprocter... Hi Tom & Bev, Good to hear from you! We were asking after you last week in Bkk, but no one seemed to have any news, so glad to be 'filled in' a little. Have a good trip and stay in Thailand and hope to see you when we next visit. We still have a copy of that TV interview to pass to you sometime....it's been to and from Bkk a couple of times...:-) Metta Sarah --- On Thu, 22/10/09, nsdragonman wrote: >Bev and I are about to leave for Thailand for 5 months and noticed we have several copies of some Dhamma books that are just taking shelf space here. It seems crazy to take them back to Thailand if there is someone in the west that might like them. So we would be pleased to send them to anyone who wants them! .. #101566 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:59 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, sutta 50)and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, First a correction in sutta 49: As to the first case, a person who lives in darkness and is bound for darkness, this is someone who is born into a low caste, of the untouchables (ca.n.daalaa), as the commentary explains. He has wrong livelihood, his outward appearance is unfavorable and he performs the three kinds of akusala.. I translated dujjivita wrongly as wrong livelihood, but here, in this context it is: he lives in poor conditions as to food and drink. This is vipaaka, not akusala kamma. It is in contrast to the third case: bahuannapaana: much food and drink. As to the second case, a person who lives in darkness but who is bound for light, he lives in the same unfavorable circumstances but he performs kusala kamma. He will have a happy rebirth. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- sutta 50: Walshe DN 33.1.11(50) 'Four more persons: (a) the unshakeable ascetic (sama.nam-acalo), (b) the "blue-lotus" ascetic, (c) the "white-lotus" ascetic, (d) the subtly-perfect ascetic (sama.na-sukhumaalo). (Aparepi cattaaro puggalaa: sama.namacalo, sama.napadumo, sama.napu.n.dariiko, sama.nesu sama.nasukhumaalo.) ---------- N: The Co states that the first person is a sotaapanna. He is unshakable as to other believes (outside the dispensation), just as a strong post before the citygate is unshakable by the four winds. He is endowed with unshakable confidence. Subco: unshakable by the winds from the four directions. The co refers to the Puggala Pa~n~natti (Human Types, the fourth book of the Abhidhamma, Ch 4, p. 87) which states that the sotaapanna who has destroyed the three fetters is a recluse with a firm footing. N: The magga-citta of the sotapanna eradicates the three lower fetters of personality belief, clinging to rules and rituals (wrong practice) and doubt. He has not eradicated sensuous desire and ill- will, but for him these are not as gross as in the case of the non- ariyan; they cannot lead to an unhappy rebirth. The Co states as to the second person, the sama.napadumo, translated here as blue lotus ascetic, that he is a once-returner, sakadaagaamii. The co refers to the Puggala Pa~n~natti: stating that he has attenuated sensuous desire and aversion, that he will return to this world only once and make an end of dukkha. Here paduma is translated as red lotus. The subco: in the case of the second person the pariyu.t.thaana kilesa, the defilements of the level of akusala citta have become attenuated. The defilements do not arise all the time, only now and then. They are weak and do not overcome him. The once returner is called a sama.napadumo, according to the subco a red lotus recluse because of the very weak nature of defilements and because of the splendour of his excellent qualities and of his gentleness (soracca). As to the third person, a white lotus recluse, this is the non- returner, the anaagaami. Co: Because of the absence of snesuous desire and aversion he will soon flower. The co, refers to the Puggala Pa~n~natti: stating that he has completely destroyed the five lower fetters which cause rebirth in the lower worlds. He becomes one of spontaneous rebirth and is not liable to return from that world, attaining final release there. N: As to the fetters: There are five lower fetters (orambhagiya- samyojana) which tie beings to the sensuous planes and five higher fetters (uddhambhagiya-samyojana) which tie beings to the higher planes, the rupa-brahma planes and the arupa-brahma planes. The lower fetters are: personality belief (sakkaya-ditthi) doubt (vicikiccha) clinging to rules and rituals (silabbata-paramasa) sensuous desire (kama-raga) ill-will (vyapada) The higher fetters are: lust for rebirth in rupa-brahma planes (rupa-raga) lust for rebirth in arupa-brahma planes (arupa-raga) conceit (mana) restlessness (uddhacca) ignorance (avijja) The anaagaami is no longer tied by the lower fetters, but he is still tied by the higher fetters. This shows how hard it is to eradicate these fetters. Only the magga-citta of the arahat can eradicate them. --------- As to the fourth person, he is a subtle recluse (sama.na sukhumaalo). The co. refers to the Puggala Pa~n~natti: stating that he has eradicated the aasavas and realised the emancipation of mind and of insight. The subco states that he has destroyed completely the higher fetters and is of superior refinement. N: We are reminded that the eradication of defilements is a long process. First wrong view has to be eradicated before other defilements can be eradicated. The sotaapanna is unshakable in his confidence in the teachings, he cannot be shaken by the views of those outside the dispensation. He has firm confidence as to the right Path and is sure to eventually attain arahatship. But he still has sensuous desire and aversion, although these cannot motivate akusala kamma that would produce rebirth in an unhappy plane of existence. As we have read, the sakadaagaami has not eradicated sensuous desire and aversion, but these have become attenuated. The anaagaami has eradicated them, but he is still tied by the higher fetters of attachment to rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes, to rebirth in aruupa- brahma planes, conceit (mana), restlessness (udhacca) and ignorance (avijja). Only the arahat has eradicated all defilements. ----------- Nina. #101567 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. sarahprocter... Hi Ann, I was very glad to see your interest again here:) Let me add a comment or two as well: --- On Tue, 20/10/09, glenjohnann wrote: >"Cheating dhamma." Is it correct to say that what Achan Sujin means by this is that unless thinking, considering takes us closer to right understanding and or awareness of the nature of realities (ie. the thinking etc. is with right understanding) that we are cheating dhamma? ... S: Almost. What she means is that we may take the study to be "taking us closer to right understanding and or awareness of the nature of realities", because it's a study of the Tipitaka or Pali, for example. In fact it may just be a gaining of knowledge of terms, details and vocabulary without any pariyatti, any right undersanding, involved. At such a time when we take the akusala study for kusala study, we can refer to these (akusala) cittas as "cheating dhammas". As she always reminds us, lobha is very, very crafty. It's the same if we find ourselves feeling so calm and peaceful in the quiet setting or make a point of reflecting on certain objects such as death or metta, supposedly to develop samatha. In fact, lobha is the "cheating dhamma", being mistaken for kusala calm or wise reflection. ... >I know that we can spend a lot of time thinking about dhamma in ways that are not helpful - ie. with expectation of the growth of right understanding, expectation that it will result in awareness, thinking that "we" are doing something useful etc. This, to my understanding is "cheating dhamma". When one is honest about it, there is a huge amount of cheating happening! ... S: Yes, that's spot on. Good examples. As you say, a lot of cheating.... and only right understanding can see it. ... >I am finding the notes of the Bkk discussions helpful - thanks Lukas for the questions and Sarah for the notes. ... S: Kind of you to say so, thanks Ann. I'm very glad you're reading them. I always appreciate your pertinent comments. We're looking forward to seeing you next February. Metta Sarah ========= #101568 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, I'm always glad to see you chipping in.. #101373 --- On Thu, 15/10/09, Ken O wrote: >"The Bodhisatta realised the imperanence of the dewdrops and made this predominant in accumulating a sense of urgency and disenchantment; its arose one and then became a condition leading to its arising very often." >IMHO - this shows the sense of urgency is accumulated slowly but surely. It is the considering of condition dhammas in our daily lifes that will accumulate the sense of urgency. It cannot be forced or done quickly, it depends on one considering of dhamma and its accumulation. ... S: I liked all your good reminders:-) Metta Sarah ======== #101569 From: "marcin.kubica" Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:08 am Subject: Consciousness of nirvana is said to be "without surface" (anidassanam) marcin.kubica Dear All I'm coming here with the question my mate from other Polish Buddhists forum suggested to ask. It is the mater of vinnanam anidassanam as presented in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/nirvanaverb.html I think the most of it goes around the theory, which Thanissaro Bhikku is presenting for vinnanam anidassanam to be not included in khandhas. And perhaps there are other interesting things about Bhikkhu's essay to speak about. We believe sharing your thoughts on this would be beneficial for everyone. In bow. Marcin #101570 From: Herman Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, sutta 50)and commentary. egberdina Hi Nina, 2009/10/23 Nina van Gorkom > Dear friends, > > First a correction in sutta 49: > As to the first case, a person who lives in darkness and is bound for > darkness, this is someone who is born into a low caste, of the > untouchables (ca.n.daalaa), as the commentary explains. He has wrong > livelihood, his outward appearance is unfavorable and he performs the > three kinds of akusala.. > > Why do you repeat this stuff? Do you agree with it? Vicki and I have just spent a few days in India, and it certainly wasn't pretty. But blaming people for the circumstances into which they are born seems to me to be a pinnacle of ignorance. Would you similarly justify the plunder of SE Asia by the Dutch aristocrats on the basis of their birth or their kusala? Cheers Herman #101571 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Consciousness of nirvana is said to be "without surface" (anidassanam) sarahprocter... Dear Marcin (& friends), --- On Fri, 23/10/09, marcin.kubica wrote: >I'm coming here with the question my mate from other Polish Buddhists forum suggested to ask. ... S: I'm glad to welcome another Polish member! I wonder if you know Lukas already? ... >It is the mater of vinnanam anidassanam as presented in http://www.accessto insight.org/ lib/authors/ thanissaro/ nirvanaverb. html >I think the most of it goes around the theory, which Thanissaro Bhikku is presenting for vinnanam anidassanam to be not included in khandhas. And perhaps there are other interesting things about Bhikkhu's essay to speak about. .... S: I'm in a bit of a hurry now, but can I recommend you take a look at some saved details messages on this topic which can be found in "useful posts" in the files section of DSG? Once there, click on 'v' for vinnana and then you'll find the following: >Vinnana2 & Nibbana, Vinnana anidassana, also see -'Nibbana', Udana-nibbana' 16916, 16922, 43148, 63504, 65744, 75609< Either click on the highlighted numbers in "useful posts" or key these numbers in where it says "message #" at the top of the page of any message on the DSG home page. Pls let us know if you find anything helpful or interesting. ... >We believe sharing your thoughts on this would be beneficial for everyone. ... S: Very beneficial. We'd be glad to hear any of your thoughts or those of your friends. Metta Sarah ======== #101572 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:36 am Subject: Re: anumodana, Books from Malaysia chewsadhu Dear Nina, You are always welcome. Ehipassiko and I also would like to say billion thanks to you for allowing Ehipassiko to reprint your books. Let me know, in future if you have any good Dhamma books need to be reprinted, I will try my best to suggest to them. Again, thanks and sadhu to you. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Chew, > > I like to express my appreciation to you and to the ehipassiko > association for reprinting 'The Perfections leading to Enlightenment" > by Kh Sujin. The books arrived today and many thanks! > Anumodana, > Nina. > #101573 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- On Tue, 20/10/09, egberdina wrote: >There are no citta, so just like in the case of Santa Claus, you can safely stop looking for the characteristics of what isn't there. ... S: So what is there? Best regards to you and Vicki! Metta Sarah ======== #101574 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta = whole . If "whole" do not exist, then citta doesn't really exist. sarahprocter... Hi Alex & all, --- On Tue, 20/10/09, truth_aerator wrote: > Vinnana is "formed" when internal and external ayatana come together. .... S: yes, but remember that vinnana is an internal ayatana. ... >In other words it is a sort of a "whole", and as some people argue - the wholes do not really exist - just like a car doesn't exist outside of its parts. ... S: Why does this make it any kind of "whole", which as you say, does not really exist. .... >"Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. ' http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.148. than.html ... S: Yes, eye consciousness arises depending on various conditions such as eye-sense and visible object. Why does that make it an unreal "whole" like the concpt of a car? The ayatanas are about realities, elements, not about "wholes". Metta Sarah ======= #101575 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, sutta 50)and commentary. nilovg Hi Herman, sigh. :-(( Nina. Op 23-okt-2009, om 12:23 heeft Herman het volgende geschreven: > Would you similarly justify the plunder of SE Asia by > the Dutch aristocrats on the basis of their birth or their kusala? #101576 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:53 am Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 5. nilovg Dear friends, 3. There are three levels of defilements. In the Commentaries to the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma, and in the Subcommentaries, there are explanations of the elimination of the three levels of defilements, namely, the anusaya kilesa (latent tendencies), the pariyutthåna kilesa (arising with the akusala citta) and the vítikkama kilesa (transgression, misconduct). We read in the Commentary to the Vinaya, the “Samantapåsådikå, in the “Inception of Discipline” (II, the Account of the First Great Convocation, 22) : “In the Vinayapitaka is taught the avoidance of transgression (vítikkama kilesa), as morality is diametrically opposed to the defilements of the degree of transgressio; in the Suttapitaka the avoidance of prepossession (pariyuììhåna kilesa, arising with the akusala citta), as concentration (samådhi) is diametrically opposed to prepossession; in the Abhidhammapitaka, the avoidance (pahåna: abandoning) of latent bias, as wisdom is diametrically opposed to latent bias. In the first (pitaka) the categorical avoidance (tadaùgappahåna) of defilements has been taught and in the others (respectively) the avoidance consisting of elimination and eradication (vikkhambhanasamucchedappahånåni). In the first the avoidance of the defilement of misconduct has been taught and in the others (respectively) that of the defilements of craving and misbelief...” [14] We read in the “Sumangalavilåsiní”, the Commentary to the Dígha Nikåya, in the Commentary to the “Net of Views” (Brahmajålasutta), under the section on Síla: “In the Vinaya he taught the abandoning of the coarse defilements, because morality is opposed to coarse defilements. He taught the abandoning of medium defilements in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to medium defilements. He taught the abandoning of subtle defilements in the Abhidhamma because wisdom is opposed to subtle defilements. He taught in the first Pitaka the temporary elimination of defilements and in the other two Piìakas he taught (respectively) the elimination of defilements by suppression and by complete cutting off. The abandoning of the corruptions (sankilesa) which are akusala kamma he taught in the first Pitaka, the abandoning of the corruptions which are craving (tanhå) and wrong view (ditthi) he taught (respectively) in the other two Pitakas.” --------- footnote 14: When we read in the Vinaya about the monk’s transgressions, we can think of our own faults. When we consider the suttas, this can condition calm, enthusiasm and confidence. When we study the Abhidhamma, this is most helpful for the development of vipassanå paññå. However, there is Abhidhamma also in the Vinaya and the Suttanta and all three parts of the Tipitaka point towards the development of vipassanå. ******* Nina. #101577 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, sutta 50)and commentary. upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Nina) - Herman, you may have missed the back & forth Nina and I had on this topic in which I came on far more strongly than you. A further clarification by Nina indicated the commentary says that the first two cases refer to people living in very difficult and unpleasant conditions in that society, i.e., those in low-castes and "untouchables" ("living in darkness"), some of whom were engaged in unwholesome intention and action (and thus "bound for darkness") and others of whom were engaged in wholesome intention and action (and thus "bound for light"), and the other two cases refer to high-caste people ("living in light"), some of whom were engaged in "good kamma" (thus "bound for light") and others of whom were engaged in "bad kamma" (thus "bound for darkness"). So, the commentary on the one hand is saying that the conditions of birth are largely kamma-determined but one's current character and kamma need not be. This makes the commentary less racist, IMO, than first meets the eye, though I still find myself unhappy with what I view as an underlying bigotry, particularly the evaluation of lower-caste folks having "outward appearance [that] is unfavorable," a common evaluation of subjugated people in a society by the "ruling classes". The commentators were enmeshed in the mores of their society, but they were probably relatively "liberal" compared to the majority of the people at that time and place. The Buddha, of course, was fully free of the moral biases of his society. In fact, I had quoted him to show that in one of my posts to Nina. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101578 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:28 am Subject: Citta = whole . If "whole" do not exist, then citta doesn't really exist. truth_aerator Hello Sarah, All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex & all, > > --- On Tue, 20/10/09, truth_aerator wrote: > > Vinnana is "formed" when internal and external ayatana come together. > .... > S: yes, but remember that vinnana is an internal ayatana. > ... Vinnana is not internal ayatana. Manayatana is. There is also dhammayatana, but in 12 ayatana classification there isn't "vinnana" word. > >In other words it is a sort of a "whole", and as some people argue - the wholes do not really exist - just like a car doesn't exist outside of its parts. > ... > S: Why does this make it any kind of "whole", which as you say, >does not really exist. > .... Just like all arguments about cars not existing because they are made of parts, none of which is the car. Same is here. The argument that "whatever has parts (such as trees, cars, people) do not in reality exist" can be applied to vinnana which is two elements coming together. Neither eye nor forms is vinnana. Thus there isn't really an ultimate called eye-consciousness. > >"Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. > > Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. > > Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. > > Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. ' > http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.148. than.html > ... > S: Yes, eye consciousness arises depending on various conditions >such as eye-sense and visible object. Why does that make it an >unreal "whole" like the concpt of a car? Because none of the parts that produce eye-consciousness is eye-consciousness. > The ayatanas are about realities, elements, not about "wholes". > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > Best wishes, Alex #101579 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:08 am Subject: Re: Consciousness of nirvana is said to be "without surface" (anidassanam) szmicio Dear Marcin and friends, The Blessed One said: ------------------------ L: This is very helpful. It comes from Vibhanga , Maggangovibhango, dukam. Here the Blessed One is saying about magga-cittas, that are both magga and phala cittas, also called lokuttara. Those are vi~n~nanas that experience nibbana. I am very greatful to Lord Buddha that he did this classification. Although sometimes we can be involved in speculation on them. It's still Dhamma, that should be considered. -------------- The 8-fold path constituents are: sapaccayaa - with conditions. They arise because of conditiones. Those conditions can be known. sankhataa - conditioned. The vi~n~nas are not asankhata as you suggested before. Never. They are sankhata dhammas. conditioned dhammas. Anidassanaa - they are not visible. They are dark. Appa.tighaa - not impinged. Aruupa - not material. They are naama. lokuttara - they are "higer", not mundane. Best wishes Lukas P.s Connie I miss our old discussions. They were very helpful. #101580 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, sutta 50)and commentary. nilovg HI Howard, Op 23-okt-2009, om 17:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha, of course, was fully free of the moral > biases of his society. ------ N: Of course. But being born with an ugly body is the result of kamma. Here is another sutta, quoted from my Abhidhamma in Daily Life. This sutta elaborates more on the unhappy circumstances that are vipaaka: < There are many degrees of each of these nineteen types of paìisandhi-citta because kamma can be of many degrees. It is due to kamma that people are born ugly or beautiful and that they are born in unpleasant or in pleasant surroundings. The fact that one is born into miserable circumstances does not mean that one's next birth will also be into miserable circumstances. It all depends on the kamma which has been accumulated and which produces result. As regards people who are born into happy circumstances, if akusala kamma produces their next birth, this will be an unhappy one. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Fours, chapter IX, §5, Darkness): Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four? He who is in darkness and bound for darkness; he who is in darkness but bound for light; he who is in light but bound for darkness; he who is in light and bound for light. And how, monks, is a person in darkness bound for darkness? In this case a certain person is born in a low family, the family of a scavenger or a hunter or a basket-weaver or wheelwright or sweeper, or in the family of some wretched man hard put to it to find a meal or earn a living, where food and clothes are hard to get. Moreover, he is ill-favoured, ugly, dwarfish, sickly, purblind, crooked, lame or paralysed, with never a bite or sup, without clothes, vehicle, without perfumes or flower-garlands, bed, dwelling or lights. He lives in the practice of evil with body, speech and thought; and so doing, when body breaks up, after death, he is reborn in the waste, the way of woe, the downfall, in hell. Thus, monks, is the person who is in darkness and bound for darkness. And how, monks, is a person in darkness but bound for light? In this case a certain person is born in a low family... without bed, dwelling or lights. He lives in the practice of good with body, speech and thought... and so doing, when body breaks up, after death he is reborn in the happy bourn, in the heaven-world. And how, monks, is a person in light but bound for darkness? In this case a certain person is born in a high family... And that man is well-built, comely and charming, possessed of supreme beauty of form. He is one able to get clothes, vehicle, perfumes and flower-garlands, bed, dwelling and lights. But he lives in the practice of evil with body, speech and thought. So doing, when body breaks up, after death he is reborn in the waste, the way of woe, the downfall, in hell. Thus, monks, is the person who is in light but bound for darkness. And how, monks, is a person who is in light and bound for light? In this case a person is born in a high family... able to get clothes... bed, dwelling and lights. He lives in the practice of good with body, speech and thought. So doing, when body breaks up after death, he is reborn in the happy bourn, in the heaven-world. Thus, monks, is one who is in light and bound for light. These, monks, are the four persons found existing in the world.> Nina. #101581 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, sutta 50)and commentary. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/23/2009 2:23:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: HI Howard, Op 23-okt-2009, om 17:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha, of course, was fully free of the moral > biases of his society. ------ N: Of course. But being born with an ugly body is the result of kamma. ------------------------------------------ Yes, it *is* the result of that and of other conditions as well, but it is an individual matter, and kamma should not serve as a basis for collectivist thinking. Ugliness as viewed in a given society is quite often not biologically objective, but is "in the eye of the beholder," and, more to the point, it is to be found amongst all strata of society, not being inherent in a race, ethnic group,religion, social class, culture or nationality. It does not apply universally to disadvantaged groups in a society any more than to the upper crust. To think it does is to be racist. At the time of slavery in the U. S. and also during the years of subsequent discrimination and much worse, Africans were said to "look like monkeys". In Nazi Germany and many other societies, Jews were charicatured as hook-nosed and ugly. Similarly for the Chinese during the building of the railroads in the U. S. West. ------------------------------------------- Here is another sutta, quoted from my Abhidhamma in Daily Life. This sutta elaborates more on the unhappy circumstances that are vipaaka: < There are many degrees of each of these nineteen types of paìisandhi-citta because kamma can be of many degrees. It is due to kamma that people are born ugly or beautiful and that they are born in unpleasant or in pleasant surroundings. The fact that one is born into miserable circumstances does not mean that one's next birth will also be into miserable circumstances. It all depends on the kamma which has been accumulated and which produces result. As regards people who are born into happy circumstances, if akusala kamma produces their next birth, this will be an unhappy one. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Fours, chapter IX, §5, Darkness): Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four? He who is in darkness and bound for darkness; he who is in darkness but bound for light; he who is in light but bound for darkness; he who is in light and bound for light. And how, monks, is a person in darkness bound for darkness? In this case a certain person is born in a low family, the family of a scavenger or a hunter or a basket-weaver or wheelwright or sweeper, or in the family of some wretched man hard put to it to find a meal or earn a living, where food and clothes are hard to get. Moreover, he is ill-favoured, ugly, dwarfish, sickly, purblind, crooked, lame or paralysed, with never a bite or sup, without clothes, vehicle, without perfumes or flower-garlands, bed, dwelling or lights. He lives in the practice of evil with body, speech and thought; and so doing, when body breaks up, after death, he is reborn in the waste, the way of woe, the downfall, in hell. Thus, monks, is the person who is in darkness and bound for darkness. And how, monks, is a person in darkness but bound for light? In this case a certain person is born in a low family... without bed, dwelling or lights. He lives in the practice of good with body, speech and thought... and so doing, when body breaks up, after death he is reborn in the happy bourn, in the heaven-world. And how, monks, is a person in light but bound for darkness? In this case a certain person is born in a high family... And that man is well-built, comely and charming, possessed of supreme beauty of form. He is one able to get clothes, vehicle, perfumes and flower-garlands, bed, dwelling and lights. But he lives in the practice of evil with body, speech and thought. So doing, when body breaks up, after death he is reborn in the waste, the way of woe, the downfall, in hell. Thus, monks, is the person who is in light but bound for darkness. And how, monks, is a person who is in light and bound for light? In this case a person is born in a high family... able to get clothes... bed, dwelling and lights. He lives in the practice of good with body, speech and thought. So doing, when body breaks up after death, he is reborn in the happy bourn, in the heaven-world. Thus, monks, is one who is in light and bound for light. These, monks, are the four persons found existing in the world.> ------------------------------------------------- Nina, the section *common* to the first and second cases, that says "Moreover, he is ill-favoured, ugly, dwarfish, sickly, purblind, crooked, lame or paralysed ..." is very disappointing to me, for it asserts that whether bound for darkness or bound for light, a person in a "low class" of society, whether of bad character or good, is ugly. The other characteristics mentioned are due to being disadvantaged, so I am deemphasizing them. The main problem that I have with this, even with regard to the other physicaL characteristics of "dwarfish, sickly, purblind, crooked, lame or paralysed" is the universality of application. I doubt that this section is the word of the Buddha, for it is inconsistent with what he has taught elsewhere, and moreover it is clearly false. ------------------------------------------------------------- Nina. =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101582 From: Herman Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, sutta 50)and commentary. egberdina Hi Howard (and Nina), Yes, I did miss that exchange, and thank you for the clarifications. I agree with your observations on the differences between the position of the Buddha and the commentaries. The Buddha's position is incisively unambiguous ( and was a frontal assault on the thinking prevalent then, and regretfully still today). From Sutta Nipata 596. O! Gotama, we have a dispute on birth,. Bhàradvàja says by birth is a brahmin" And I say by action" This is our dispute wise one. ........... 649. Ignorantly entangled in views for a long time, The not knowing tell us, that by birth a brahmin is born. 650. By birth a brahmin is not born, by birth a non-brahmin is not born, By actions a brahmin is born, by actions a non-brahmin is born.. Cheers Herman #101583 From: Herman Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta egberdina Hi Sarah, There is dependent origination. Cheers to you and Jon Herman 2009/10/23 sarah abbott > Hi Herman, > > --- On Tue, 20/10/09, egberdina wrote: > >There are no citta, so just like in the case of Santa Claus, you can > safely stop looking for the characteristics of what isn't there. > ... > S: So what is there? > #101584 From: "marcin.kubica" Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Consciousness of nirvana is said to be "without surface" (anidassanam) marcin.kubica Dear Sarah Thanks for your reply. I can't find the document mentioned, in fact I could not locate 'v' letter in files section. Could you please post me the link? Many Thanks. With Metta. /M > ... > >It is the mater of vinnanam anidassanam as presented in http://www.accessto insight.org/ lib/authors/ thanissaro/ nirvanaverb. html > > > > S: I'm in a bit of a hurry now, but can I recommend you take a look at some saved details messages on this topic which can be found in "useful posts" in the files section of DSG? Once there, click on 'v' for vinnana and then you'll find the following: > >Vinnana2 & Nibbana, Vinnana anidassana, also see -'Nibbana', Udana-nibbana' 16916, 16922, 43148, 63504, 65744, 75609< > #101585 From: "marcin.kubica" Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:33 pm Subject: Re: Consciousness of nirvana is said to be "without surface" (anidassanam) marcin.kubica Czesc Łukasz Thanks for your reply but I'm affraid it is too complicated for me. In Metta /M #101586 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Consciousness of nirvana is said to be "without surface" (anidassanam) ptaus1 Hi Marcin, You can find the Useful Posts file like this: Once you are on the dhamma study group page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages Look into the menu on the left side, there should be a "Files" option, click on it and you'll go to the Files section (you have to be signed in as yahoo user for the File option to be active): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Once you are in the Files section, scroll down a bit and you'll find a link to the page called "Useful Posts October 2009". That's what Sarah was talking about, and once you click on that link you'll be taken to Useful posts archive: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/gEPiSgZELnXEKStvfuRqUiE5YuZ3B9A5peUp95K6C3jz6aV1Qli\ PIm8e0IspL-xbP7ZppYmjvl2ZnVw8b72kY6RTC3Y/Useful_Posts_October_2009.htm Once there, you can either scroll down to letter 'V' or just click on the letter V link at the top of the page. I find Useful posts very helpful as most of the answers I'm looking for are already there. Regarding the posts numbers that Sarah already gave you for vinnana anidassana: 16916, 16922, 43148, 63504, 65744, 75609 This is another way to get to the posts of interest from the Useful Posts section: On the main dhamma study group page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages Look just above the messages list - there should be a box which has "Message #" before it and "Go" button on after it. Enter the post number (16916 for example) into the box and click Go - you will then be taken to a messages list where your post 16916 will be at the top of the list - click on it and you can read it. Best wishes pt #101587 From: Staisha Perry Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (dsg) charactoristic of citta staisha_perry Hello Sarah, thank you this makes perfect sense once one can see that this only seeing an object this is the moment of citta, regardless whether what faculty it is from. there after once you start identifying with shape form memory contact thinking this turns into something else completely cause then it is a phenomena that we have give into as identity or self maybe i am way ahead or wrong, thank you everyone #101590 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 5. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for another useful post. I make notes from your post on the three levels of kilesas as follows: (Please correct me if my note is incorrect.) (1) vítikkama kilesa (transgression), abandoned by tadangappahaana (temporary avoidance of defilements), through siila (morality). (2) pariyu.t.thaana kilesa (prepossession: arising with the akusala citta), abandoned by vikkhambhanappahaana (temporary elimination of defilements), through samaadhi (concentration: jhaana). (3) anusaya kilesa (latent tendencies), abandoned by samucchedappahaana (complete elimination of defilements), through pa~n~naa (magga ~naa.na). -------------------- Han: In one Burmese book I found the following comparison: (3) anusaya kilesa is like a match box. One cannot yet see any fire burning, although there are inflammable substance in the matchbox and matchstick. (2) pariyu.t.thaana kilesa is like when one strikes the matchstick against the rough surface of the matchbox. The fire starts to burn the matchstick. But the fire is not yet spreading, and it only burns the matchstick itself. So also, pariyu.t.thaana kilesa burns only within the person himself. (1) vítikkama kilesa is like when the burning matchstick is applied to some inflammable substance. Then the fire will spread to other substances. So also, vítikkama kilesa causes harm to other persons. When the matchbox is soaked with water, then one cannot lit the fire even when the matchstick is struck against the matchbox. So also, when the anusaya kilesa is eliminated by magga ~naa.na there cannot be any kilesa fire. The latent tendencies for defilements are eliminated forever. Respectfully, Han #101591 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:52 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (62) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 7. Ruupas from different Factors (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ---------------------------------- We read in the "Discourse on the Analysis of the Elements" (Middle Length Sayings III, no 140) that the Buddha explained to the monk Pukkusaati about the elements and that he also spoke about the element of space. This Sutta refers to the empty space of holes and openings that are, as we have read, the manifestation of space. We read: "... And what, monk, is the element of space? The element of space may be internal, it may be external. And what, monk, is the internal element of space? Whatever is space, spacious, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as the auditory and nasal orifices, the door of the mouth and that by which one swallows what is munched, drunk, eaten and tasted, and where this remains, and where it passes out (of the body) lower down, or whatever other thing is space, spacious, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, this, monk, is called the internal element of space. Whatever is an internal element of space and whatever is an external element of space, just these are the element of space. By means of perfect intuitive wisdom this should be seen as it really is thus: This is not mine, this am I not, this is not myself. Having seen this thus as it really is by means of perfect intuitive wisdom, he disregards the element of space, he cleanses his mind of the element of space." The Sutta speaks about space of the auditory orifices and the other holes and openings of the body. Space in the ear is one of the conditions for hearing [Note 5]. We attach great importance to internal space and we take it for "mine" or self, but it is only a ruupa element. [Note 5] Space in the ear or the nose is space that is not conditioned by one of the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition; it is unconditioned ruupa. -------------------- Questions 1. When we notice suppleness of the limbs, is this experienced through the bodysense? 2. Can suitable food, suitable weather and the citta which, for example, cultivates lovingkindness be conditions for lightness, plasticity and wieldiness of body? 3. Can these three qualities also be produced by kamma? 4. What is the function of space? ------------------------------ This is the End of Chapter 7. Ruupas from different Factors. Chapter 8. Characteristics of Ruupas will start from the next post. with metta, Han #101592 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:30 pm Subject: Anger management hantun1 Dear Nina (Lukas), Nina mentioned her book "The World in the Buddhist Sense" in one of her posts. I managed get the book through Google, and I like it very much. In the Preface, Nina wrote: "When we hear harsh words it is only sound which is heard, only the rupa which impinges on the earsense. However, we think with anger or sadness about an unkind person who spoke harsh words, we think in a negative, unwholesome way and this happens most of the time. In the absolute sense there is no person who speaks unkind words. The moments of consciousness which motivated his speaking are only fleeting moments, they have fallen away but we keep thinking about his unkindness. There is no person, no self who hears, hearing arises only for a moment and then it falls away. The sound which is heard is only a kind of rupa which does not last. Right understanding of the objects we experience through the six doors will eventually lead to more patience. The effect will be that we are less inclined to feel hurt by what others say to us and that we will be able to forgive more easily". Han: That was a very good advice to have patience, to manage the anger, and to forgive others. I also read the following sutta: AN 5.162 Aghatavinaya Sutta: Subduing Hatred (2) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.162.than.html (1) "There is the case where some people are impure in their bodily behavior but pure in their verbal behavior. Hatred for a person of this sort should be subdued. (2) "There is the case where some people are impure in their verbal behavior but pure in their bodily behavior. Hatred for a person of this sort should also be subdued. (3) "There is the case where some people are impure in their bodily behavior & verbal behavior, but who periodically experience mental clarity & calm. Hatred for a person of this sort should also be subdued. Han: In the above three cases, we are looking at the good aspect of a person, ignoring or forgiving his weaknesses. Now, what happens if the person is not good in bodily behaviour, verbal behaviour and mental clarity and calm, (i.e. there is no good aspect at all to look for), as in the following case? (4) "There is the case where some people are impure in their bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who do not periodically experience mental clarity & calm. Hatred for a person of this sort should also be subdued. Han: The sutta says we should still subdue our hatred for such a person. But how to do it? It may not be easy. Then, please read the following passage further down in the sutta. (4) "And as for a person who is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who does not periodically experience mental clarity & calm, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when there is a sick man in pain, seriously ill, traveling along a road, far from the next village & far from the last, unable to get the food he needs, unable to get the medicine he needs, unable to get a suitable assistant, unable to get anyone to take him to human habitation. Now suppose another person were to see him coming along the road. He would do what he could out of compassion, pity, & sympathy for the man, thinking, 'O that this man should get the food he needs, the medicine he needs, a suitable assistant, someone to take him to human habitation. Why is that? So that he won't fall into ruin right here.' In the same way, when a person is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who does not periodically experience mental clarity & calm, one should do what one can out of compassion, pity, & sympathy for him, thinking, 'O that this man should abandon wrong bodily conduct and develop right bodily conduct, abandon wrong verbal conduct and develop right verbal conduct, abandon wrong mental conduct and develop right mental conduct. Why is that? So that, on the break-up of the body, after death, he won't fall into the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, purgatory.' Thus the hatred for him should be subdued." Han: If we can think it that way, we may even feel pity for him instead of hatred toward him. We may feel sorry for him that he will have to bear the effects of his bad behaviour in this life or in future lives. Respectfully, Han #101593 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:27 pm Subject: Past Causes produces Present Effects... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Past life causes makes effects in the present life! In the previous life there was doubt, confusion, and delusion, which is ignorance. There was kammic accumulation of many intentions, which is mental construction. There was attachment to the past life body, food, and pleasures, which is craving. There was embracing this & that, delighting in this & that object, which is clinging. There was volitions, favourite choices, & firm determinations, which is becoming... These 5 things accumulated in the previous kamma-process of becoming therefore became the conditions for rebirth-linking at birth here in the present life process... Here in the present life process, there was rebirth-linking, which is consciousness. There was descent into the womb, which is mentality-&-materiality; name-&-form. There is sensitivity of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mind, which is the 6 senses. There is what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched, and thought, which is contact. There is what is felt as pleasure, pain or neither pleasure nor pain, which is feeling... These five things here in the present rebirth-process of becoming all have their conditions in kamma done in the past. Since feeling causes clinging. And since this clinging, then causes new becoming resulting in future birth, these 5 things causes the conditions for a future life to be deposited... The rebirth round is thus closed! Any present intentional conscious moment, thus creates a future conscious moment! Ps I 52, Vism 601 <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #101594 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:51 pm Subject: Re: anumodana, Books from Malaysia rjkjp1 Thanks also from me Chew, the books you sent me arrived and I will place a copy each at the center here in bangkok. with respect robert > > > > I like to express my appreciation to you and to the ehipassiko > > association for reprinting 'The Perfections leading to Enlightenment" > > by Kh Sujin. The books arrived today and many thanks! > > Anumodana, > > Nina. > > > #101595 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:56 pm Subject: Re: Consciousness of nirvana is said to be "without surface" (anidassanam) rjkjp1 Dear Marcin perhaps this thread has something of interest http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=10&hl=anidassanam Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "marcin.kubica" wrote: > > Dear All > > I'm coming here with the question my mate from other Polish Buddhists forum suggested to ask. > > It is the mater of vinnanam anidassanam as presented in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/nirvanaverb.html > #101596 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta sprlrt Hi Staisha, This is from ch. 2 of K. Sujin 'A survey of paramattha dhammas', (it is available on the net in several sites and file formats) - Alberto <... the Dhamma which the Sammasambuddha taught is the Dhamma he completely penetrated when he attained enlightenment. Through the realization of the Dhamma at the time of his enlightenment his defilements were completely eradicated. The Buddha taught the Dhamma he had realized himself so that those who practised the Dhamma accordingly would also become free from defilements. The followers of the Buddha should investigate and study the truth of the Dhamma which the Buddha realized through his enlightenment, in order to find out what this truth exactly is. In which way is the truth the Buddha realized different from the truth of the conventional world? The Buddha realized the truth by his enlightenment and taught it to his followers so that they too would have understanding and practise the Dhamma accordingly until they would realize the truth themselves. The truth the Buddha taught is that everything which appears is a type of dhamma, a reality, which is not self, not a being not a person. All dhammas which arise do so because there are conditions for their arising, such as attachment, anger, regret, unhappy feeling, happy feeling, jealousy, avarice, loving kindness, compassion, seeing, hearing; all of them are different types of dhammas. There are different kinds of dhamma because they arise because of different conditions. One erroneously takes attachment, anger and other dhammas which arise for self, for being, for person, and that is wrong view, wrong understanding. It is wrong understanding because those dhammas, after they have arisen, fall away, disappear, are subject to change all the time, from birth to death. The reason for erroneously taking dhammas for self, being or person, is ignorance of the truth of dhammas. Whenever one sees one takes the seeing which is a kind of dhamma for self, one clings to the idea of "I see". When one hears one takes the dhamma which hears for self, one clings to the idea of "I hear". When one smells one takes the dhamma which smells for self, one clings to the idea of "I smell". When one tastes one takes the dhamma which tastes for self, one clings to the idea of "I taste". When one experiences tangible object through the bodysense one takes the dhamma which experiences this for self, one clings to the idea of "I experience". When one thinks of different subjects one takes the dhamma which thinks for self, one clings to the idea of "I think". After the Buddha had realized through his enlightenment the truth of all dhammas, he taught this truth to his followers so that they too would understand that dhammas are not self, not a being, not a person. He taught about paramattha dhammas, realities, each with their own characteristic which is inalterable. The characteristics of paramattha dhammas cannot be changed by anybody, no matter whether he knows them or does not know them, no matter whether he calls them by a name in whatever language or does not call them by a name. Their characteristics are always the same. The dhammas which arise do so because there are the appropriate conditions for their arising and then they fall away. Just as the Buddha said to the venerable Ananda: "Whatever has arisen, come into being because of conditions, is by nature subject to dissolution." Because of ignorance one has wrong understanding and takes the dhammas which arise and fall away for self, being or person. This is the cause of desire and ever growing infatuation with one's rank, title or status, with one's birth, one's family, the colour of one's skin and so on. In reality, what one sees are only different colours appearing through the eyes, not self, not a being, not a person. The sound one hears is not self, not a being, not a person. What appears through the senses are only different kinds of dhammas which arise because of their appropriate conditions. The wrong view which takes dhammas for self, being or person has been compared to the perception of a mirage. People who are travelling in the desert may perceive ahead of them a mirage of water, but when they come close the mirage disappears because in reality there is no water. The mirage they perceived was a deception, an optical illusion. Evenso is the wrong understanding which takes dhammas for self, being or person, a deception caused by ignorance, by wrong perception or remembrance, by wrong belief. Words such as being, person, woman or man are only concepts used to designate what we see or hear. Moreover, it is evident that the different colours, sounds, odours, cold, heat, softness, hardness, motion or pressure, even though their characteristics have such variety, could not appear if there were no dhammas which can experience them, namely, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing cold, heat, softness, hardness, motion or pressure, knowing the meaning of the different things and thinking. The dhammas which can experience different things such as the dhamma which experiences colour, the dhamma which experiences sound, the dhamma which experiences odour, flavour, cold, heat, softness, hardness, motion, pressure, the dhamma which knows the meaning of the different things and the dhamma which thinks about different subjects, all these dhammas which experience different things have been classified by the Sammasambuddha as citta, consciousness. ...> #101597 From: "drampsych" Date: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:11 am Subject: mindfulness and thinking drampsych Is it possible to be mindful and to think in a purposeful way about something? Often, if I note thinking, it disappears, but this is the random thinking that plays across my mind. What happens when I have to think about something purposefully? For instance, I have to do a math calculation but want to do so mindfully. I assume that is possible, but I would like to have a detailed explanation of how that works. For instance, in terms of mind moments and the idea that there can only be one object of attention at any given moment, can there be mindfulness and (purposeful) thinking at the same time, or do mindfulness and thinking occur in successive mind moments? Alan McAllister #101598 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness and thinking nilovg Dear Alan McA, Op 24-okt-2009, om 14:11 heeft drampsych het volgende geschreven: > Is it possible to be mindful and to think in a purposeful way about > something? Often, if I note thinking, it disappears, but this is > the random thinking that plays across my mind. What happens when I > have to think about something purposefully? For instance, I have to > do a math calculation but want to do so mindfully. I assume that is > possible, but I would like to have a detailed explanation of how > that works. For instance, in terms of mind moments and the idea > that there can only be one object of attention at any given moment, > can there be mindfulness and (purposeful) thinking at the same > time, or do mindfulness and thinking occur in successive mind moments? ---------- N: Mindfulness, sati, of the level of satipa.t.thaana, is mindful of one naama or ruupa at a time as it appears through one of the six doorways. The object of mindfulness may be seeing, and that means, that seeing has just fallen away and mindfulness which arises shortly afterwards can be mindful of just that characteristic. At the moment of mindfulness pa~n~naa can investigate that characterstic so that it is known as not my seeing, only a conditioned naama. Thinking is a reality, it is a kind of naama that thinks. Also thinking, when it has just fallen away can be object of mindfulness and understanding, so that it is known as a conditioned naama, not my thinking. Thinking can think of many things, for example calculations, and that is a concept, not an absolute reality. Concepts and ideas are not objects of mindfulness, but thinking that thinks about these is a reality, thus, it can be an object of mindfulness and right understanding. The purpose of all this is understanding the truth of non-self, anattaa. We have to keep this in mind from beginning to end. You write: . There is no wanting in the development of satipatthaana. We learn that whatever arises does so because of conditions. Nobody can direct sati and tell it to come forward so that he can do things mindfully. Sati may arise or may not arise. Understanding this is already a step towards the realisation of anattaa. In conventional language we may say: we know what we are doing, are conscious of what we are doing, but this is not sati of satipatthaana. It does not lead to the understanding of anattaa. Thus, when you think in a purposeful way about something, sati may arise in between the moments of thinking (they are moments of thinking that arise and fall away) and be mindful of just the characteristic of thinking, or it may not arise. ****** Nina. #101599 From: "connie" Date: Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:53 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (315, 1-9) nichiconn Dear Friends, Continuing from #101549 Fours (50) (cy: #101566), the Fives begin: CSCD Pa~ncaka.m 315. < Piles or heaps because they are what is piled up or heaped up as a consequence of the actions of individuals. Or you could say: "that which we understand to be the componants of an indivuality can be heaped into five piles, sorted into five groups, etc. See Bhikkhu Thanissaro: Five Piles of Bricks (...bricks! ugh!) and his Study Guide CSCD < Most of the other translators speak of "grasping or clinging," Venerable Punnaji speaks of "personalization," but grasping or clinging or personalizing, or getting bound up, it is materiality, sense experience, etc., which is that with which one is geting involved, and it is the pile that is the result (i.e., these are not grasping-groups (little piles sitting there grasping after rupas, etc), they are groups resulting from grasping; the group is identified (as in 5.1) as the rupa-pile because those components which make up that pile were a result of grasping after material shapes. I say the idea is "going after getting." This is where "upadana" fits into the paticca samuppada (So when it speaks of "upadana" you should be thinking that what is being upadana'd after is rupa, etc.) Downbound Hunger/Thirst (tanha) Rebounds Bound up Bound up (bound up in Going after getting, getting involved with, with the motivation of satisfying one's thirst, going after getting.) Downbound Bound up (involved, given over to, bound up in), Rebound Bound up (trapped by, wound up in) Living (BHAVA, also > behavior, becoming) This same formula is stated in what I call the backwards-up style this way: Could there be any Birth of any sort, by any sort of being in any sort of realm of being, if there were no Living of any kind by any kind of being in any sort of realm of being? No, there could not be any birth, by any being, in any realm of being, if there were no living of any kind by any kind of being in any realm of being. Therefore Birth arises dependant on Living. Could there be any Living of any kind by any kind of being in any sort of realm of being if there were no "Going after Getting Life" (not necessarily with conscious intent to get life, but with the intend to satisfy desire, tanha, to act on the intent to get) by any kind of being in any sort of realm of being? No, there could not be any living of any kind by any being in any realm of being if there were no "going after getting life" by any being in any realm of being. Therefore Living arises dependant on Going After Getting. Could there be any Going after Getting if there were no Wanting to get? No, there could be no going after getting if there were no wanting. Therefore Going After Getting arises dependant on Wanting. This is also described in a different way in the first part of the paticca samuppada: Downbound blindness rebounds bound up in sankhara: intentional acts of mind, speech and body and the consequential result in consciousness. Consciousness is awareness of awareness and awareness is awareness of something: what? Rupa (whether as an idea or as a material shape). Consequently downbound consciousness rebounds bound up in nama-rupa, which is another name for individuality. This is the argument against those who would propose a spontaneous generation of individuality. How? Because it demonstrates that the idea of individuality is identical to the idea of "soul" or self and is of the nature of an illusion imposed on the real phenomena at work: a process much like a chemical reaction. In other words it argues that "living" was not the consequence of a first cause because it cannot be demonstrated to have happened in the first place. An idea, blind to the consequences, causes actions which have results. Here also we have the argument against accepting as satisfactory, the idea of creation of individuality outside of the individual's will by a "Creator," for the idea of "Going after getting other beings" applies to a creator in the same way as going after getting pleasure would apply to an ordinary indivudal. So whether or not a certain specific individuality may have been created by another individual, without upadana it there would be no manifestation of living. See: The Fifth Lesson Glossology: Pa~ncuupaadaana-kkhandhaa Khandha: [Sk. skandha] -- I. Crude meaning: bulk, massiveness (gross) substance. A. esp. used (a) of an elephant: the bulk of the body. (b) of a person: the shoulder or back. (c) of a tree: the trunk. (d) as t.t. in exegetical literature: section, chapter, lit. material as collected into uniform bulk; freq. in postscripts to Texts and Commentaries. B. More general as denoting bulk; e. g. aggi- a great mass of fire; udaka- a mass of water (i. e. ocean); pu~n~na- a great accumulation of merit; bhoga- a store of wealth; ma.ni- an extraordinarily large jewel (possessing magic power). II. Applied meaning.--A. the body of, a collection of, mass, or parts of; in collective sense "all that is comprised under"; forming the substance of. (a) dukkha- all that is comprised under "dukkha," all that goes to make up or forms the substance, the idea of "ill." (b) lobha- dosa- moha- the three ingredients or integrations of greed, suffering and bewilderment, lit. "the big bulk or mass of greed". -- (c) vayo- a division of age, part of age, as threefold: purima-, majjhima-, pacchima- . (d) siila (etc.) kh- the 3 (or 5) groups or parts which constitute the factors of right living (dhamma), viz. (1) siila- the group dealing with the practice of morality; (2) samaadhi- that dealing with the development of concentration; (3) pa~n~naa- that dealing with the development of true wisdom. B. (absolute) in individual sense: constituent element, factor, substantiality. More especially as khandhaa (pl.) the elements or substrata of sensory existence, sensorial aggregates which condition the appearance of life in any form. Their character according to quality and value of life and body is evanescent, fraught with ills & leading to rebirth. 1. Unspecified. They are usually enumerated in the foll. stereotyped set of 5: ruupa- (material qualities), vedanaa (feeling), sa~n~naa (perception), sankhaaraa (coefficients of consciousness), vi~n~naa.na (consciousness). They are enumerated in a different order at S I.112, viz. ruupa.m vedayita.m sa~n~na.m vi~n~naa.na.m ya~n ca sankhata.m n' eso 'ham asmi. Detailed discussions as to their nature see e. g. S III.101; S III.47; III.86. As being comprised in each of the dhaatus, viz. kama- ruupa- aruupa-dhaatu. (a) As factors of existence (cp. bhava). Their rôle as such is illustrated by the famous simile: "yathaa hi angasambhaaraa hoti saddo ratho iti eva.m khandhesu santesu hoti satto ti sammuti" "just as it is by the condition precedent of the co-existence of its various parts, that the word "chariot" is used, just so it is that when the skandhas are there, we talk of a "being" " (Rh. D.) (cp. Hardy, Man. Buddh. p. 425) S I.135=Miln 28. (b) Their relation to attachment and craving (kaama); craving is their cause & soil; the 4 aruupino kh. are based on lobha, dosa, moha (c) their annihilation: the kh. remain as long as the knowledge of their true character is not attained, i. e. of their cause & removal (d) their relation to dhaatu (the physical elements) and aayatana (the elements of sense-perception) is close, since they are all dependent on sensory experience. (e) their valuation & their bearing on the "soul"-conception is described in the terms of na mama ruupa.m (etc.) . . . anicca.m, dukkha.m, n' eso 'ham asmi, n 'eso me attaa "material qualities are evanescent, bad, I am not this body, this body is not my soul". 2. Specified as panc' upaadaana-kkhandhaa the factors of the fivefold clinging to existence. Defined & discussed in detail S III.47; 86-88; also Vin I.10; S III.127 sq. What is said of the khandhas alone-see above 1 (a)-(e)-is equally applied to them in connection with upaadaana. (a) As regards their origin they are characterized as chandamuulakaa "rooted in desire, or in wilful desire" S III.100. (b) their contemplation leads to the recognition of their character as dukkha, anicca, anattaa. That they occupy a prominent position as determinants of dukkha is evident from their rôle in the exposition of dukkha as the first one of the noble truths: sankhittena pa~nc'upaadaanakkhandhaa pi dukkhaa "in short, the 5 kh. are associated with pain" Vin I.10=M I.48=A I.177=S V.421. Upaadaana: (nt.) [fr. upa + aa + daa] -- (lit. that (material) substratum by means of which an active process is kept alive or going (mo: how that can be called the "literal" definition is beyond me)), fuel, supply, provision; adj. supported by, drawing one's existence from S I.69; II 85. 2. (appld.) "drawing upon", grasping, holding on, grip, attachment; adj. finding one's support by or in, clinging to, taking up, nourished by. -kkhandha, usually as pa~nc- upaadaana-kkhandhaa the factors of the "fivefold clinging to existence" [cp. BSk. pa~nc- u-skandhaah.] CSCD < Gu.na1 1. a string, a cord -- (a) of a robe, etc.. (b) of musical instruments (mo: string, not chord). -- (c) of a bow, in aguna stringless. 2. (a strand of a rope as) constituent part, ingredient, component, element; with numerals it equals -fold (mo: 5-stringed instruments), e. g. pa~nca kaamagu.naa the 5 strands of kaama, or 5-fold craving. MO: my guess is this is from gu.na2 in it's meaning as "gut." The idea seems to be more of "string, or strand, or thread" than of "cord, or rope;" one thread of a rug or rope made up of many such threads. I think we need to relate this to sutta, where sutta is similar to our "yarn" or a story with many threads composed of small strands of fiber which is, in turn, composed of filiments. Sutta2 (nt.) [Vedic sutra, fr. siv to sew] 1. a thread, string -- fig. for ta.nhaa. -- kaa.la* a carpenter's measuring line; digha* with long thread; makka.ta* spider's thread; yanta* string of a machine. -- Mentioned with kappaasa as barter for ciivara at Vin III.216. -- 2. the (discursive, narrational) part of the Buddhist Scriptures containing the suttas or dialogues, later called Sutta-pi.taka (cp. Suttanta). As such complementary to the Vinaya. -- 3. one of the divisions of the Scriptures (see navanga). -- 4. a rule, a clause (of the Paatimokkha). -- 5. a chapter, division, dialogue (of a Buddh. text), text, discourse. -- 6. an ancient verse, quotation. 7. book of rules, lore, text book. How about: 1. (element) filiment=hair; 2. (single) yarn=thread=string; 3. (woven, braided) rope, cord, rug, cloth? CSCD < See also: The 9th Lesson And here's a nice lesson in Pali: Gata [pp. of gacchati in medio-reflexive function] gone, in all meanings of gacchati (q. v.) viz. 1. literal: gone away, arrived at, directed to (c. acc.), opp. .thita: gate .thite nisinne (loc. abs.) when going, standing, sitting down (cp. gacchati 1); opp. aagata. Also periphrastic (=gacchati 5 b): a.t.thi paritvaa gata.m "the bone fell down". Very often gata stands in the sense of a finite verb (=aor. gacchi or agamaasi): yo ca Buddha.m . . . sara.na.m gato (cp. gacchati 4) ; attano vasana.t.thaana.m gato he went to his domicile; naavaa Aggimaala.m gataa the ship went to Aggimaalaa. 2. in applied meaning: gone in a certain way, i. e. affected, behaved, fared, fated, being in or having come into a state or condition. So in sugata & duggata (see below) and as 2nd part of cpds. in gen., viz. gone; attha.m- gone home, set; addha- done with the journey (cp. gat-addhin); gone into: ta.nhaa- fallen a victim to thirst, tama- obscured, raho-, secluded, vyasana- fallen into misery; having reached: anta- arrived at the goal (in this sense often combd with patta: antagata antapatta, ko.ti- perfected, parinibbaana- having ceased to exist (mo=not correct Dhamma!). vijjaa- having attained (right) knowledge; connected with, referring to, concerning: kaaya- relating to the body (kaayagataa sati); di.t.thi- being of a (wrong) view; sankhaara-, etc. -- Sometimes gata is replaced by kata and vice versa: anabhaava.mkata>anabhaava.m gacchati; kaalagata>kaalakata (q. v.). agata not gone to, not frequented: -.m disa'n (of Nibbaana); purisantara.m -.m maatugaama.m "a maid who has not been with a man". sugata of happy, blessed existence, fortunate; one who has attained the realm of bliss, blessed. duggata of miserable existence, poor, unhappy, illfated, gone to the realm of miscry; duggata-bhaava (poverty); duggat-itthi (miserable, poor); parama-duggataani kulaani clans in utmost misery (poverty). -atta (fr. attaa) self-perfected, perfect; -addhin (adj. of addhan) one who has completed his journey (cp. addhagata); -kaale (in gata-gata-kaale) whenever he went; -.t.thaana place of existence; =gamana in aagata-.t.thaana.m vaa: coming and going (lit. state of going); -yobbana (adj.) past youth, of old age. Gataka a messenger. Gatatta 1.=Sk. gat-aatman. - 2.=Sk. gatatva.m the fact of having gone. Gati (f.) [fr. gacchati; cp. Gr. ba/sis, Lat. (in-) ventio, Goth. (ga-)qumps] 1. going, going away, (opp. aagati coming) (both gati & aagati usually in pregnant sense of No. 2.); direction, course, career. -- phassaayatanaana.m gati (course or direction); sakuntaana.m g. the course, flight of birds. -- Opp. aagati. -tassaa gati.m jaanaati "he knows her going away, i. e. where she has gone". -- 2. going away, passing on (=cuti, opp. upapatti coming into another existence); course, esp after death, destiny, as regards another (future) existence (tassa kaa gati ko abhisamparaayo what is his rebirth and what his destiny?); in combn aagati vaa gati vaa (=cutuupapatti), rebirth & death. In defn of sa'nsaara expld as gati bhavaabhava cuti upapatti=one existence after the other; as gati upapatti pa.tisandhi. -- The Arahant as being beyond Sa'nsaara is also beyond gati: yassa gati.m na jaananti devaa gandhabba-maanusaa; yesa'n gati n' atthi; and Nibbaana coincides with release from the gatis: gativippamokkha.m parinibbaana.m. -- attaa hi attano gati "everybody is (the maker of) his own future life"; esaa maccharino gati "this is the fate of the selfish"; sabbagatii te ijjhantu "all fate be a success to you"; gato so tassa yaa gati "he has gone where he had to go (after death)". 3. behaviour, state or condition of life, sphere of existence, element, especially characterized as sugati & duggati, a happy or an unhappy existence. gati migaana.m pavana.m, aakaaso pakkhiina.m gati, vibhavo gati dhammaana.m, nibbaana.m arahato gati: the wood is the sphere of the beasts, the air of the birds, decay is the state of (all) things, Nibbaana the sphere of the Arahant. 4. one of the five realms of existence of sentient beings (=loka), divided into the two categories of sugati (=Sagga, realm of bliss) & duggati (=Yamaloka, apaaya, realm of misery). These gatis are given in the foll. order: (1) niraya purgatory, (2) tiracchaanayoni the brute creation, (3) pittivisaya the ghost world, (4) manussaa (m-loka) human beings, (5) devaa gods: M I.73; D III.234; A IV.459; Nd2 550; cp. S V.474--77; Vism 552. They are described in detail in the Pa~ncagatidiipana (ed. L. Feer, J.P.T.S. 1884, 152 sq.; trsl. by the same in Annales du Musée Guimet V. 514--528) under Naraka-ka.n.da, Tiracchaana-, Peta-, Manussa-, Deva-. Of these Nos. 1-3 are considered duggatis, whilst Nos. 4 and 5 are sugati. In later sources we find 6 divisions, viz. 1-3 as above, (4) asuraa, (5) manussaa, (6) devaa, of which 1-4 are comprised under apaayaa (conditions of suffering, q. v.) or duggatiyo (see Pv IV.11, cp. PvA 103). These six also at D III.264. -- lokassa gati.m pajaanaati Bhagavaa Sn 377 (gati=nirayaadipa~ncappabheda.m SnA 368). The first two gatis are said to be the fate of the micchaadi.t.thino D I.228, dve ni.t.thaa DA I.249 (q. v. for var. appl. of gati) as well as the dussiilaa (A I.60), whilst the last two are the share of the siilavanto (A. I.60). -gata gone its course. agati 1. no course, no access, in agati tava tattha: there you have no access. -- 2.=duggati, a wrong course. agatigamana a wrong course of life. Technically the four agati-gamanaani are: chanda- dosa- moha- bhaya-. sugati (sometimes suggati after duggati) a happy existence; a realm of bliss; the devaloka.; sugati-paraayana sure of rebirth in a realm of bliss. duggati a miserable existence; a realm of misery (see above gati 4). Usually with gacchati (duggati.m gata, reborn in a miserable state) or uppajjati. Sakakammaani nayanti duggati.m, one's own deeds lead to rebirth in misery; with ref. to a Peta existence. Gatika (adj.) 1. going to, staying with, in bhikkhu- a person living with the bhikkhus. -- 2. leading to: ya.m- what they lead to (of the 5 indriyas). -- 3. having a certain gati, leading to one of the four kinds of rebirth; niyata- whose destiny is certain (w. ref. to sugati) and aniyata- whose destiny is uncertain (w. ref. to a duggati). Gatin (adj.=gatika) 1. going, i. e. having a certain course: sabbaa nadii vankagatii "every river flows crooked". -- 2. having a certain gati, fated, destined, esp. in su- & dug-: samparaaye suggatii going to a happy existence after death; sagga.m sugatino yanti "those who have a happy fate (because of leading a good life) go to one of the Heavens". Gatimant (adj.) of (perfect) behaviour, going right, clever. Gacchati [Vedic gacchati, a desiderative (future) formation from *g.uem "I am intent upon going," i. e. I go, with the foll. bases. -- (1) Future--present *g.uemskeeti < *ga.shcati < Sk. gacchati=Gr. ba/skw (to bainw). In meaning cp. i, Sk. emi, Gr. eQmi "I shall go" & in form also Sk. pr.cchaati=Lat. porsco "I want to know," Vedic icchati "to desire." -- (2) Present *g.uemiio=Sk. gamati=Gr. bai/nw, Lat. venio, Goth. qiman, Ohg. koman, E. come; and non-present formations as Osk. kuumbened, Sk. gata=Lat. ventus; gantu=(ad) ventus. -- (3) *g.uaa, which is correlated to *staa, in Pret. Sk. aagaam, Gr. e)/bhn, cp. bh_ma]. These three formations are represented in Paali as follows (1) gacch-, in pres. gacchati; imper. gaccha & gacchaahi; pot. gacche (Dh 46, 224) & gaccheyya; p.pres. gacchanto, med. gacchamaana; fut (2nd) gacchissati; aor. agacchi (VvA 307; v. l. aga~nchi). -- (2) gam- in three variations; viz. (a) gam-, in pres. caus. gameti; fut. gamissati; aor. 3 sg. agamaa, agamaasi & gami. agami.mhase, pl. agamu.m, agama.msu & gami.msu; prohib. maa gami; ger. gamya; grd. gamaniiya. See also der. gama, gamana, gaamika, gaamin. -- (b) gan-, in aor. aga~nchi. -- In n'aaga~nchi it belongs to aa+gam); pres.-aor ga~nchisi; inf. gantu.m; ger. gantvaa; grd. gantabba. See also der. gantar. (c) ga-, in pp. gata. See also ga, gati, gatta. -- 3. gaa-, in pret. agaa, 3rd pl. aor. aguu (=Sk. -uh.), in ajjhaguu, anvaguu. Meanings and Use: 1. to go, to be in motion, to move, to go on (opp. to stand still, ti.t.thati). Freq. in combn with ti.t.thati nisiidati seyya.m kappeti "to go, to stand, sit down & lie down," to denote all positions and every kind of behaviour. eva.m kaale gacchante, as time went on, or eva.m g- kaale or gacchante gacchante kaale; gacchati=paleti; vemako.ti gantvaa pahari (whilst moving). -- 2. to go, to walk (opp. to run, dhaavati). -- 3. to go away, to go out, to go forth (opp. to stay, or to come, aagacchati): agamaasi he went; yo ma.m icchati anvetu yo vaa n' icchati gacchatu "who wants me may come, who does not may go"; aagacchantaana~n ca gacchantaana~n ca pamaa.na.m n' atthi "there was no end of all who came & went"; gacchaama "let us go"; gaccha daani go away now!; gaccha re mu.n.daka; gacchaahi go then!; maa gami do not go away!; pl. maa gamittha; gacchanto on his way; agama.msu they went away; gantukaama anxious to go; kattha gamissasi where are you going? (opp. agacchasi); kaha.m gacchissatha id.; kuhi.m gamissati where is he going?. -- 4. with acc. or substitute: to go to, to have access to, to arrive or get at (with the aim of the movement or the object of the intention); hence fig. to come to know, to experience, to realize. -- (a) with acc. of direction: Raajagaha.m gami he went to R.; Devadaha-nagara.m gantu.m; gacchaam' aha.m Kusinaara.m I shall go to; Suva.n.nabhuumi.m gacchanti they intended to go ("were going") to; migava.m g. to go hunting; janapada.m gamissaama; paradaara.m g. to approach another man's wife. -- (b) with adverbs of direction or purpose (atthaaya): santika.m (or santike) gacchati to go near a person (in gen.), pitu s. gacchaama; devaana santike gacche santika.m also. Katha.m tattha gamissaami how shall I get there?; tattha agamaasi he went there. dukkhaanubhavanatthaaya gacchamaanaa "going away for the purpose of undergoing suffering"; vohaaratthaaya gacchaami I am going out (=fut.) on business. -- Similarly (fig.) in foll. expressions (op. "to go to Heaven," etc.=to live or experience a heavenly life, op. next); Niraya.m gamissati; sagga.m loka.m g.; gacche paaram apaarato, in this sense interpreted as adhigacchati phusati sacchikaroti, to experience. -- Sometimes with double acc.: Bhagavanta.m sara.na.m gacchaami "I entrust myself to Bh.". -- Cp. also phrases as atthangacchati to go home, to set, to disappear; antaraa-gacchati to come between, to obstruct. -- 5. to go as a stronger expression for to be, i. e. to behave, to have existence, to fare (cp. Ger. es geht gut, Fr. cela va bien=it is good). Here belongs gati "existence," as mode of existing, element, sphere of being, and out of this use is developed the periphrastic use of gam-, which places it on the same level with the verb "to be" (see b). -- (a) sugati.m gamissasi you will go to the state of well-being, i. e. Heaven; opp. duggati.m gacchanti; magga.m na jaananti yena gacchanti subbataa (which will fall to their share); gamissanti yattha gantvaa na socare "they will go where one sorrows not"; yan ca karoti . . . ta~n ca aadaaya gacchati "whatever a man does that he will take with him". -- (b) periphrastic (w. ger. of governing verb): nagara.m pattharitvaa gaccheyya "would spread through the town"; pari.naama.m gaccheyya "could be digested"; siihacamma.m aadaaya agama.msu "they took the lion's skin away with them"; itthi.m pahaaya gamissati shall leave the woman alone; sve gahetvaa gamissaami "I shall come for it tomorrow". CSCD < Macchariya & Macchera (nt.) avarice, stinginess, selfishness, envy; one of the principal evil passions & the main cause of rebirth in the Petaloka. -- Five sorts of selfishness are mentioned D III.234; A IV.456. Walshe has "begrudging" and Rhys Davids has "meanness" but looking at the subcategories I think these do not fit too well -- one does not begrudge and one is not mean with regard to one's birth or appearance and while it is possible to begrudge or be mean about sharing the dhamma, the more usual and likely case is over-willingness to share, what is frequent, and a problem that does fit is being "dhamma-proud" "My system is better than yours." ***rd: 5.5Macchariya.m, implying also avarice, selfishness. Cf. Bud. Psy. Eth., § 1122 and n.; K.S., p. 27, § 2. CSCD < See Glossology: Nivarana which links to the individual terms and numerous references. Niivara.na: ] an obstacle, hindrance, applied to obstacles in an ethical sense & usually enumd or referred to in a set of 5 (as pa~nca niivara.naani and p. aavara.naani), i. e. sensuality, ill-will, torpor of mind or body, worry, wavering. Other enumns are occasionally found e. g. 10 at S V.110; 8 at M I.360 sq. See: The Pali Line: High Getting High and The Great Master's Satisfaction Pastures Walshe, Rhys Davids (any many others): hindrances; Probably "obstruction" is better than my previous "bindup." PTS: Woodward, The Book of the Gradual Sayings, V: The Book of the Tens, VII, pp78: "And what is the nutriment of the five hindrances? "The three wrong ways of practice." (of mind, speech, body) See: The Compilation Threes:#3.3 Bhante Punnaji, Awakening Meditation, pp8-55: "When the mind is free of the obscurants (nivarana) there is proper attention. Obscurants are the emotional excitements that prevent you from observing what is there. That is the main thing to understand. Whenyou are free of those interferences then your mind is calm and rested and you are able to observe whatever is there. You are able to pay attention because your mind is not going after the past or the future, but just observing what is in the present moment. The ability to do that is facilitated by entering the jhana because the jhana is the state where the id is free of the obscurants. pp: 8-33: "When you experience the jhana, you are fully aware of the hindrances disappearing. In fact, when you become aware of them, they stop. They continue because you are not fully aware of them." (mo: possible doubtful description of the sequence here in that it is frequently stated that the hindrances are gone before the First Jhana is entered. ("Thus abandoning these five hindrances, these taints of the heart which cause the weakening of wisdom, aloof from unprofitable states, he enters on the first musing..."GS.V:145) My view is that the tendency is to make a mysterious thing of the hindrances and their disappearance. For the second, for example, one is truly concentrating on understanding an element of the dhamma, that time is free from the hindrances -- look at the hindrances and look at the state of concentrating on the Dhamma; they are mutually exclusive --, and that is, by definition, the first jhana. What I think Bhante Punnaji is describing here is a stage a little further along the path: where the hindrances can be said to have been warn out, not just temporarily disappeared, but unable to return with similar force, greatly weakened or are eradicated completely.) CSCD < See #3.19 above. See Glossology: Sanyojana for these terms. See the discussion of Majjhima Nikaya, II, #64: Greater Discourse to Malunkyaputta, PTS, Horner trans., pp102; Wisdom, Nanamoli/Bodhi trans., pp537. On the important distinction between there being these types of things existing in the world and their being fetters; it is only when obsession with or attachment to things in the ways described by the sanyojanas develops that they become fetters. The difference is that holding that the thing itself is the problem makes the problem impossible to solve: one will never rid the world of own-self view, etc., and to say that one intends by that idea simply "ridding the self" of these things is to assume a self from which these things can be eliminated. It's like looking at the sky and saying that seeing the sky is a problem and then attempting to get rid of the sight of it by getting rid of the sky. Not only will one not succeed in getting rid of the sky in the world, the individuality will not get rid of seeing it (whether attached to it or not, when the eye of the individual looks at the world, it will see the sky). It is not the sky or the seeing of the sky that is the problem, it is the attachment to seeing the sky that is the problem. This is the subtlety of Mara: that when the individuality comes in contact with some object and sense experience arises the habitual subjective tendancy is to identify with the reaction and to overlook the fact that the identification actually took place at the earlier stage. Then, when we strive after self-improvement, (if we fall into Malunkyaputta's error, which is likely) we focus on our reactions and not the source of the reaction: a situation that amounts to no more than simply reacting to reaction (the image of Bugs Bunny furiously fighting with himself comes to mind). What the sanyojanas describe is a variety of classes of sources of reaction to sense experience, and the task for the practitioner is not to get rid of these constructs, but by using these constructs, to identify the areas where one is vulnerable to attachment. When one can slow down sufficiently (by "not-reacting", which is not the same thing as fighting one's reactions) to see that one is reacting to sense experience because of one or another of these ways to become attached, one is able to move the attention up passed that and focus on the original source: It is at that point that one has "got rid of the attachment to ..." or, in any case, is at least able to focus on the real problem with the predictable outcome that it will be solved soon enough. Another simile found in the suttas describes two cows, one black, one white, with a rope that ties them together. It is not that the black cow is attached to the white cow, and it is not that the white cow is attached to the black cow, but it is that the two cows are attached to each other by the rope. CSCD < Paa.na [fr. pa+an, cp. Vedic praa.na breath of life; P. apaana, etc.] living being, life, creature D III.48, 63, 133; S I.209, 224 Atipaata [ati + pat] attack, only in phrase paa.naatipaata destruction of life, slaying, killing, murder D I.4 (paa.naatipaataa verama.nii, refraining from killing, the first of the dasasiila or decalogue); (= paa.navadha, paa.naghaata); Atipaatin (adj. -n.) one who attacks or destroys; J VI.449; Atipaateti [Denom. fr. atipaata] to destroy S V.453. Verama.nii (f.) [fr. virama.na; cp. the odd form BSk. viirama.nii, e. g. Jtm. 213] abstaining from (*-), absti-nence A II.217, 253; V.252 sq., 304 sq.. Virama.na (nt.) (*-) [fr. viramati] abstinence, abstaining from. Viramati [vi+ramati] to stop, cease; to desist (abl.), abstain, refrain. Adinna (pp.) [a + dinna] that which is not given, freq. in phrase adinn'aadaana (BSk. adattaadaana Divy 302) seizing or grasping that which is not given to one, i. e. stealing, is the 2nd of the ten qualifications of bad character or siila (dasa-siila see siila II.). -adinnaadaayin he who takes what is not given, a thief; stealing, thieving (cp. BSK. adattaadaayika Divy 301, 418) Vin I.85; D I.138. kaamesu micchaacaaraa: pleasur'n low-going; See Glossology: Kaama where: Kaama as sensual pleasure finds its most marked application in the sphere of the sexual: kaamesu micchaacaarin, transgressing in lusts, sinning in the lusts of the flesh, or violating the third rule of conduct equivalent to abrahmacariyaa, inchastity Musati [in this connection=mr.s. in an active sense, as qua-si Denom. fr. musaa.] to betray, beguile, bewilder, dazzle. Vaada [fr. vad: see vadati; Vedic vaada, in meaning of "theory, disputation" only in Class. Sk. The relation of roots vac: vad is like E. speak: say; but vaada as t. t. has developed quite distinctly the specified meaning of an emphatic or formulated speech= assertion or doctrine] 1. speaking, speech, talk, nearly always -*-, e. g. iti- hearsay, general talk; musaa- telling lies, false speech A I.129; II.141; IV.401. Suraa (f.) [Vedic suraa] spirituous (intoxicating) liquor ("drink") Vin II.295; 301; IV.110; D I.146; A I.212, 295. -- Five kinds of suraa are mentioned, viz. (1) pi.t.tha-(what is ground, grindings, crushed seeds, flour; most likely, beer), (2) puuva-(a cake, baked in a pan; ? possibly infusion, or distillation or extraction), (3) odana-(odaniya-belonging to rice--gruel, made of rice--gruel), (4) ki.n.napakkhitta-(ki~n~na: ferment, yeast; pakkhitta: put down into, thrown into, i.e., by fermentation) (5) sambhaara-sa'nyutta- (confounded from "what is carried together" a mixture of ingrediants). -meraya (drinking) rumandspirits A I.261; II.53. Majja (nt.) [fr. mad, cp. Vedic madaandmadya] 1. intoxicant, intoxicating drink, wine, spirits Vin I.205; D III.62, 63 pamaada.t.thaanaa: setting up, or providing the basis for carelessness? == connie, Scott, Nina.