#103200 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:21 am Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 34-35) nichiconn dear pt and all, Illustrator on: [Stanzas 8 and 9] 34. Here is their meaning. Just as (yathaa), when on the hill (unname), on dry land, on a high piece of ground, rain is showered down (abhiva.t.tha"m) by clouds, the water (udaka"m) flows down (pavattati) to reach the hollow vale (ninna"m), flows, goes to, reaches, any hollow, low-lying piece of ground; so (evam eva) [213] the giving of a gift given (dinna"m) from here (ito) can serve (upakappati) - the meaning is, becomes generated, manifested, for - the ghosts of the departed kin (petaana"m); since the ghost world is like the hollow place for the water to flow down to, and the service of the almsgiving is like the water's flowing down, according as it is said 'That is the place, and an almgiving serves him while he remains there' (§30)*. And just as (yathaa), with the confluence of cascades and springs, rills and rivulets, pools and meres, the great rivers, the river-beds (vaarivahaa), when they are full (puuraa), can bear the water down to fill the sea (saagaram paripuurenti), so giving given here can serve the ghosts of the departed kin in the way already stated. 35. So the Blessed One said Unname udaka"m va.t.ta"m yathaa ninna"m pavattati, Evam eva ito dinna"m petaana"m upakappati. Yathaa vaarivahaa puuraa paripuurenti saagara"m Evam eva ito dinna"m petaana"m upakappati. 'As water showered on the hill 'Flows down to reach the hollow vale, 'So giving given here can serve 'The ghosts of the departed kin. 'As river-beds when full can bear 'The water down to fill the sea, 'So giving given here can serve 'The ghosts of the departed kin.' And when he had said this and so had explained the meaning with these similes, he then uttered the [tenth] stanza, namely, 'He gave to me', showing that a clansman should give an offering for them recalling as he does so such examples as these since these ghosts are incapable of begging 'Give this for me' even when they have come to a relative's house desperate with longing to get something there. *{#103141} peace, connie #103201 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:21 am Subject: The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 6. nichiconn dear brother hoffmeister and all, you don't know her, but i hope my "hoffsis" milly is well. i know, name-calling's a lousy way to show affection, but affection bugs me, anyway, with it's creepy crawly worms of delight. so, enuf friendly chit-chat -& back to the ? re: If kamma is the cause of birth, what is then the role of the parents? accidents of conception waiting to happen? whatever supportive role comes along, kalyanamitta. to the happiness of the royal deva Vessantara, there's the role in SN iv Great Sacrifice ch $10: , wherein <'They hoped, praised, longed for and sacrificed, Pu.n.naka', said the Blessed One. 'They longed for sensual pleasures, dependent upon gain. I say that they, given over to sacrifice and affected by passion for existence, did not cross over birth and old age.' (Sn1046)> and Mettaguu bows down, "Perhaps the Blessed One would admonish me without stopping." sometimes, the abysmal role of victim to the beloved's heinousness; few lucky enough to play the coveted Bimbisara then! it's a burdensome role - yet painfully brief is existence & how long the sorrow when few rightly adopt the practises of treating each mothers' son quite the same, or when sila is torn out of "love". peace, connie Path of Purity, p763 n1: "The sign is just the appearance, as it were bodily, through the classification of their own functions, of the complexes, which have been seized as stable or permanent in the intervals of time, by the notion of oneness in continuity and in mass" - Tika. #103202 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Planet Earth a result of Kamma (kammavipaka)? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > So as I understand it, there is according to your understanding external, mind independent rupa, mind independent soil, oceans, fire, wind, that can blow away villages, etc etc such as described in MN28. ... S: Isn't it true? It doesn't matter how we describe such rupas, but they arise and fall away, not conditioned by any namas. Are you suggesting that all rupas depend on/are conditioned by namas? Metta Sarah ======= #103203 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Alex), Again, I like (i.e. agree with) your many comments in this thread. You're in danger of being 'lumped' with some of us at the rate you're going....:-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: >>A: It is true that when a person has a bike and can ride it and the external > factors are suitable, he can ride on it. But it is not sufficient cause > for riding on a bike. There may be a decision not to ride the bike that day, > but there could have been a decision and an action to ride the bike. > -------------------------------------------------------- H: Still not so easy, Alex, it seems to me. Yes, there might be a > decision not to ride that day. But every aspect of the decision was conditioned > and not random. Also when you say that there could have been a decision and > an action to ride the bike, that is true, HAD conditions been different - > but they were NOT different, they were what they were. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Yes! ... > -------------------------------------------------------- >H:> There may be all *sorts* of conditions, and many of them play a role, > but whatever does occur is determined by conditions, and whatever > conditions occur are the only basis for what CAN occur. (Unless, of course, one > accepts the notion that events can occur randomly, without precondition.) > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > >A:> Same with exertion: Is it possible for the mind (with certain amount of > basic knowledge and understanding) to have a choice to develop kusala or > indulge in akusala? > ---------------------------------------------------------- >H: What do you MEAN by having a choice? I think the only reasonable > meaning that can be given to that is that a (conditioned!) process of > deliberation, comparing and contrasting alternative modes of action, can, when > conditions are suitable, culminate in a specific decision and act of will. It is > all still conditioned and not random. We simply don't *know* the outcome in > advance. > ----------------------------------------------------------- S: All very well put, imho. Metta Sarah ======= #103204 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Alex), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > >A: If so, then it was random! Of course, that is not so. What IS true is > that it was not then KNOWN which way it would go. > ------------------------------------------------ > How do you interpret this sutta: > ""Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... > 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' <...> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html > ------------------------------------------------------ >H: This says two things: 1) Things can and do change, and 2) One's own > kamma does not constitute the entirety of conditioning. It does NOT assert > randomness. ... S: Again, just what it suggests to me...!! Metta Sarah ======= #103205 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Inducing samatha sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > But we have to know the difference between concepts, pa~n~natti and > paramattha dhammas. If we do not, we shall always blame the > situation, our busy life, for our lack of awareness and understanding. ... S: Yes, only too easy to blame "the taxes, finances, kids, angry bosses and so on". And what a relief it is when we begin to understand seeing at this moment, visible object at this moment, thinking at this moment. Then there is no limit to when awareness and understanding can arise. There is no 'better situation', there is just the reality appearing now. Metta Sarah ======= #103206 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 11:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? sarahprocter... Hi Mike NZ and Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > H Alex, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Sarah: There is no 'free-will', because this again suggests a Self that >can select or choose. > > > > Alex: Can there be impersonal citta that can choose among "available" alternatives. > > Yes, I think this is the key point. Can we put aside the repeated claims that anatta proves anything about choice or control (which we are never going to agree on since my conditioning is different to the AS followers :)) and discuss what choice would actually mean in terms of citta? I.e. does a citta have more choice than a falling rock? .... S: A good point to raise. Perhaps we can say the cittas which are thinking now are making choices about what to write and read. What does this mean? Some cittas think about "a good point" and are a condition for the rupas involved to type the letters accordingly. At another moment, other cittas think about different words. But did any of those cittas actually make any "choices" or did they just think in the way there were conditions for them to think at the time? Were they really "free" at any point to think in any way that there were not the conditions to think? I appreciate your contributions here, Mike, and take the point about anatta anatta anatta...:-) Metta Sarah ====== #103207 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 11:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" > > S: Let's be very clear that all cittas are conditioned and >unpredictable. > >A: Conditioning can be of various types. > > To pick up a cup with right hand requires the possesion of the right hand + other factors. But even if a person has hands, it doesn't mean that s/he will pick up the cup. > > Are there any situations when citta could do X or do Y? Even though citta did X, it may have done Y. Can that be? ... S: Whether the citta does X or Y depends entirely on conditions. As Howard has explained, if there were conditions to do X, there is no way Y could have been done. It had to be exactly as it was at that moment. ... >Again, the choice does depend on the situation which is determined. ... S: We have to look at the realities. A situation is a concept that is thought about. The namas and rupas involved are conditioned. ... > >S:Determinism suggests (to me) that a God or someone or something >determines them. This is not correct. > >A: Can there be impersonal citta that can choose among "available" alternatives. ... S: All cittas are "impersonal". Cittas rooted in lobha can be said to select or choose the flavour of the ice-cream, for example. However, even such thinking, such sanna, such lobha, such bodily intimations and other rupas are all conditioned.....just like a puppet! As Howard also said, it's not easy - of course we'd all like to have a self that could have some say and control over life, but we know it cannot be found. Then, slowly as right understanding develops, a different kind of calm, contentment and acceptance develop with it. The namas and rupas arising now, the entire 'situation', could not be/can not be any other than the way it is. Metta Sarah ======= #103208 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 11:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: sasa"nkhaarika or asa"nkhaarika, was: everything predetermined? sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, I wished to add a note to this qu too: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > Which akusala is stronger, prompted or unprompted? ... S: Unprompted. ... > Which kusala is better, prompted or unprompted? ... S: Unprompted. In both cases, the unprompted is stronger. If we give without hesitation, when we have the chance, it's stronger than when encouraged and thought about. If we take something that doesn't belong to us without hesitation, even in ignorance of why stealing is so bad, it's stronger than if we think about it, know it's wrong, but still go ahead. Metta Sarah ======== #103209 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact & Feeling sarahprocter... Hi Alex & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > --- On Wed, 25/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: > > >Seeing, etc, is always intentional (for non-Arahants) or result of past intentions. > > > > Seeing as result of past intention = vipaka. Resultant from past kamma. > > > Also to see one is required to have attention, or some form of engagement to see. When one is very absorbed into something (has no current intention to see or hear something else), one may not hear or see what happens nearby. > ... S: Hmmm.... Attention (manasikaara) arises with every citta. It's a universal factor. When we absorbed into something (like now?), there is a lot of thinking about what we're doing - reading in this case. There are also many, many moments of seeing and hearing in between, otherwise we couldn't read for a start. What you mean is that it seems that there is no seeing or hearing or thinking about what is seen and heard? This is called ignorance:-). ... > > >Phasso plays a role in any cognitive events of non-Arahant. > > .... > > S: Can you elaborate on what you mean by these two comments? >A: Phasso in non-arahant (maybe even in non-aryans) can come with Ignorance. avijjasamphasso. So it is not always bare "contact". Delusion may already underlie that contact. Arahants do not have avijjasamphassa (and trainees have very little of it, perhaps residual and subtke ignorance). ... S: Again, let's be clear that phassa (contact) is a universal cetasika which arises with every single citta, including those of the arahat. Yes, ignorance arises with all akusala cittas and so of course, phassa arises with these ones too. No contact is ever 'bare' - it's always accompanied by at least the citta and six other mental factors. As you say, arahants do not have any avijja, but (with the exception of anagamis close to attainment of full enlightenment), still plenty of avijja for trainees, but not as gross as ours, of course, and never accompanied by wrong view. Metta Sarah ====== #103210 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 7:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Alex) - In a message dated 12/8/2009 5:48:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (& Alex), Again, I like (i.e. agree with) your many comments in this thread. You're in danger of being 'lumped' with some of us at the rate you're going....:-) -------------------------------------------------- Well, it's improbable that you guys would ALWAYS be wrong! ;-)) ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103211 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 2:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views ashkenn2k Dear Alex >To re frame my question as simple as possible: > >If citta would occur in identical conditions as it did before, would it behave in exactly the same way as it did before? Is there room for citta to chose among multiple possible possibilities? > >There are so many different conditions from the (possibly infinite) past, that citta *could have* acted differently. > >With metta, > >Alex KO: What you are trying to pin point is whether we are being deterministics, which I ready said it is not so. Even if everything conditions are the same, citta may not react the same because citta is by nature variegated. What is the same is the seeing as a reality is the same be it you see red colour or blue colour it is still seeing. This process is the same due to conditions like proximity and contiguity condition. A hard rock falling down is different from a sentinent falling down, same condition but a sentinet will react due to fear of pain etc, that condition their reactions. And not because there is self will, fear is a strong paccaya and that will condition the reaction. It is simply conditions. Even if the person falls the same way over and over again, at times there could be fear and other time he could enjoy it or at other time, he understand the characteristic of motion rupa. That understanding of motion of that moment is where one make a difference in developing kusala. We cannot stop citta from thinking or cognizing but we could understand the characterisitics of the citta that cognise the an object that appear in the senses at the moment. that is to me mindfulness. Cheers Ken O #103212 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 2:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs rock rolling down the hill ashkenn2k Dear Alex >Can citta that has certain amount of wisdom, chose not to indulge in akusala or at least resist it? >While it is true that we cannot change what just has occured (bhuta). >Can the mind chose to refrain and resist from unwholesome reactions towards the thought or the object that just have arisen? KO: When a mind refrains from aksuala because the mind is mindful and understand the danger of akusala. There is no self involve in this process. The choice in what you think is not made by the self, it simply conditions that arise to see the benefit of kusala action. It is wrong view o think there is a self to make a choice because there is no self in the first place. it is just aggregates. Because of sakkaya ditthi, we think there is a self in the aggregates hence there is a self that make a choice. Cheers Ken O #103213 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 2:30 pm Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 1 ashkenn2k Dear all from the book Reality and Concepts and which are also in the book A Survery of Paramattha Dhamma  Part 1 Paramattha dhammas beings, people, or self. The paramattha dhammas that arise are only citta, cetasika, and rúpa, its own characteristic, its own nature. They arise because of conditions and then they fall away again very rapidly. If one does not know the characteristics of citta, cetasika, and rúpa, paramattha dhammas, which arise and fall away and succeed one another very rapidly, one knows just concepts. One takes rúpa and nÃ¥ma, and fall away in succession, for things which are lasting. Thus, one lives in the world of conventional truth, sammutti sacca. When realities appear one clings to shape and form, to a “wholeâ€?, one takes fleeting realities for things that exist.  However, when one has studied paramattha dhammas and knows how to develop paññå (wisdom), there can be awareness of the characteristics that appear and paññå can become keener. Then the stage of insight can be reached which is the clear under standing of realities that arise and fall away at this moment. One will clearly see that there is no being, person or self. One will know that there are only paramattha dhammas that appear one at a time. This is in accordance with the truth which the Buddha realized at his enlightenment and which he taught to others.  to be continued..  Cheers Ken O    are realities, they are not2 which each has3 which arise #103214 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 2:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 1 ashkenn2k oops sorry some mistake in the first paragraph Paramattha dhammas beings, people, or self. cheers Ken O > >From: Ken O #103213 #103215 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 2:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 1 ashkenn2k hmm really something wrong with the cut and paste, let me type it out again for the 1st paragraph Paramattha dhammas are realities, they are not beings, people, or self. my apology Ken O >From: Ken O #103214 #103216 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 5:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Determinism & Free will? Are they totally incompatible? truth_aerator Hello Herman, (all) > Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2009/12/8 truth_aerator > > > Hello Herman, KenH, all > > > > > > > > > > > > Can there be non-deterministic exceptions? > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of a parallel universe >which > > would > > > allow us to conduct "what-if" scenarios. > > > > This "what if" scenario is very important. > > > > If the situation would have repeated in exactly the same way, >would the > > person act in exactly the same way - or would the person be able >to act in a > > *different* way that could have occured with that same set of >conditions. > > > > Well, I can't prove it, but my working assumption is that same >causes => same result. Thank you for telling me your opinion. But the thing is that at any given time there are many causes, from different time periods that can be used for different possible outcomes, though all the alternative outcomes are conditioned. > And another working assumption I have is that any system cannot >know itself. So, all causes can never be known, and trying to >predict >the future is therefore doomed. But if *in theory* there was a super computer which was outside of a system, could it predict with 100% certainty what will happen in the next hh:mm:ss (for example) and that prediction would have to come true? What this case scenario askes is if future is pre-determined or that multiple outcomes are possible. With metta, Alex #103217 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 5:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Planet Earth a result of Kamma (kammavipaka)? truth_aerator Dear Sarah, > "sarah" wrote: > Dear Alex, > Are you suggesting that all rupas depend on/are conditioned by namas? > Metta > Sarah No. With metta, Alex #103218 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 6:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs rock rolling down the hill truth_aerator Dear KenO, Sarah, Herman, Howard, all >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > >Can citta that has certain amount of wisdom, chose not to indulge >in akusala or at least resist it? > > >While it is true that we cannot change what just has occured (bhuta). > >Can the mind chose to refrain and resist from unwholesome reactions towards the thought or the object that just have arisen? > > > KO: When a mind refrains from aksuala because the mind is mindful >and understand the danger of akusala. There is no self involve in >this process. The choice in what you think is not made by the self, >it simply conditions that arise to see the benefit of kusala >action. It is wrong view o think there is a self to make a choice >because there is no self in the first place. it is just >aggregates. Because of sakkaya ditthi, we think there is a self in >the aggregates hence there is a self that make a choice. > > > Cheers > Ken O Thank you very much for your replies. I've read them, and have quite a bit to digest. Specifically to the current post: I did not posit a Self that chooses, I was inquiring as to the citta that *could* choose. A choice is conditioned, I agree. But there are so many past conditions and conditioning that it could mean that multiple choices (that are based on different existant past conditions) are possible... Though this choice itself could be conditioned , and so on... With metta, Alex #103219 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 7:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 1 nilovg Dear Ken O, I am glad you quote this. I am just now reading this book to Lodewijk, early morning and at dinner. He had trouble about the Path without a goer. He wondered, for whom is this Path then? I tried to explain. It is what is now being discussed here. Nina. Op 8-dec-2009, om 15:35 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > One takes rúpa and nåma, > >>and fall away in succession, for things which are lasting. > >>Thus, one lives in the world of conventional truth, > >>sammutti sacca. When realities appear one clings to > >>shape and form, to a “whole”, one takes fleeting realities > >>for things that exist. > >> #103220 From: "Mike" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 7:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs rock rolling down the hill mikenz66 Alex, KO --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > KO: When a mind refrains from aksuala because the mind is mindful >and understand the danger of akusala. There is no self involve in >this process. The choice in what you think is not made by the self, >it simply conditions that arise to see the benefit of kusala >action. It is wrong view o think there is a self to make a choice >because there is no self in the first place. it is just >aggregates. Because of sakkaya ditthi, we think there is a self in >the aggregates hence there is a self that make a choice. > Alex: Thank you very much for your replies. I've read them, and have quite a bit to digest. Specifically to the current post: I did not posit a Self that chooses, I was inquiring as to the citta that *could* choose. I agree with Alex. I find it curious that "self" keeps being brought up in this thread whenever the possibility of "choice" is mentioned. [Perhaps it's a poor choice (!) of word(s) but I can't think of a better one at the moment.] No one is claiming that there is any problem with the teaching of not-self, so I don't see why it has to be repeatedly dragged in. The issue, as I see it, is that there are teachings that suggest that everything is NOT simply pre-determined, so it is interesting to explore what exactly conditioning, pre-determination, choice, etc, mean in terms of the Abhidhamma description of reality. Metta Mike #103221 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 8:43 pm Subject: Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs rock rolling down the hill truth_aerator >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Alex, KO > >I agree with Alex. I find it curious that "self" keeps being brought >up in this thread whenever the possibility of "choice" is mentioned. >[Perhaps it's a poor choice (!) of word(s) but I can't think of a >better one at the moment.] No one is claiming that there is any >problem with the teaching of not-self, so I don't see why it has to >be repeatedly dragged in. The issue, as I see it, is that there are >teachings that suggest that everything is NOT simply pre-determined, >so it is interesting to explore what exactly conditioning, >pre-determination, choice, etc, mean in terms of the Abhidhamma >description of reality. > > Metta > Mike Hello Mike, all, As to conditionality. Does conditionality has to always imply that there is no making of choice possible (all done by impersonal citta of course)? There is also a thing about different ontological existences of time period. Past has already happened. It cannot be changed. Furthermore it does not exist "now". Future also does not exist now, but unlike the past, it is unknown (and maybe cannot be known with full certainty in all aspects). For example in quantum mechanics one can either know the location or the speed of a subatomic particle, never both. Maybe the sort of uncertainty principle at quantum level applies to decision making as well? The present does exist, and here the choice can be. Very often the conditionality is so mixed that from the "same bag of past conditions" multiple results are possible. Of course, after the fact, post factum, someone could easily justify why this and not that has happened and say that "See! The reality has happened in the way it had to happen". But this can be said in retrospect. There just isn't full certainty IN THE MOMENT as to what the future will be. As I've said, the future is on different ontological plane than the past. At least some past can be known with certainty. It is done with. Future is not "done with", it doesn't yet exist. To Herman, KenO, Howard, Sarah, all: As to AN 3.61, I do not think that the Buddha has meant that absolutely everything that happens today is all 100% due to the past causes. If that was the case, then as the Buddha has said "a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past" . Even if you say that what happens today is also determined by PRESENT (rather than past causes), it still for all intents and purposes means the same things because you claim that PRESENT choice is due to past causes and without any degree of free will. In other words present 'choice' is totally predetermined (and thus it is total predetermination as to who will be a killer and who a saint). ============== "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those priests & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html If present choices are 100% conditioned by past choices & conditions, then it is equivalent to say that the present choice to 'kill, steal, rape, to become a saint etc' was totally predetermined and without any degree of free will. With metta, Alex #103222 From: A T Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:31 pm Subject: The beginning... truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >--- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Ignorance is mentioned as the first factor of the Dependent > Origination, but no first beginning of the cycle has been >revealed. I believe that what it means is that ignorance is the primary cause and condition of suffering. It is first and most basic. For example in SN15 the pali word is anamatagga anamatagga =adj. one whose beginning is unknown. =========== ...the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn15/sn15.003.than.html "anamataggoyaṃ, bhikkhave, saṃsÄ?ro. PubbÄ? koá¹ na paññÄ?yati avijjÄ?nÄ«varaṇÄ?naṃ sattÄ?naṃ taṇhÄ?saṃyojanÄ?naṃ sandhÄ?vataṃ saṃsarataṃ." An important point. The Buddha is not saying that there isn't a beginning point. All He says that samsara is anamataggoyaṃ (its begining is *unknown*) and previous end is not clear or evident PubbÄ? koá¹ na paññÄ?yati. paññÄ?yati= appears; is clear or evident. There is difference between something being "unknown" and "not existing at all". So epistemologicaly we may not find (na paññÄ?yati) the first point, since consciousness cannot know the unknowable (one can't directly be conscious of unconsciousness). But Ontologically it may be different. > The Path of Purification (XIX, 20) explains: > > > There is no doer of a deed > Or one who reaps the deed’s result; > Phenomena alone flow on— > No other view than this is right. > And so, while kamma and result > Thus causally maintain their round, > As seed and tree succeed in turn, > No first beginning can be shown. > > It is of no use to speculate about the beginning of the cycle. The > Buddha taught that when ignorance has been eradicated by wisdom, > there aren’t any more conditions for the performing of kamma, and > thus no conditions for rebirth. Through wisdom there can be the > reversal of the vicious circle made up by the links of the Dependent > Origination. This means the end of the cycle, the end of dukkha. The > commentary to the first book of the Abhidhamma, the Expositor (I, > Part I, Chapter I, 44) explains by way of a simile the conditions > leading to the continuation of the cycle and those leading to the end > of it : > ****** > Nina. With metta, Alex #103223 From: Herman Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) egberdina Hi all, 2009/12/8 connie > to the airman in the attic and the child watching, > > history repeats itself, they say. > > <......> > what wouldn't a liar do? > > Everyone please post all your bank account details to this thread, including all passwords and PIN's. Cheers Herman > peace, > connie > > BTW, I don't see this conversation as Dhamma related. According to the > Dhamma, deceptive speech is always akusala. It's something we worldlings do > on a regular basis. -Ken H > > #103224 From: Herman Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Determinism & Free will? Are they totally incompatible? egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/12/9 truth_aerator > Hello Herman, (all) > > > Well, I can't prove it, but my working assumption is that same >causes => > same result. > > > Thank you for telling me your opinion. > > But the thing is that at any given time there are many causes, from > different time periods that can be used for different possible outcomes, > though all the alternative outcomes are conditioned. > > If there are different causes active at different times, then the outcomes would not be the same. But are not all past causes present in each new moment? > > > > And another working assumption I have is that any system cannot >know > itself. So, all causes can never be known, and trying to >predict >the > future is therefore doomed. > > But if *in theory* there was a super computer which was outside of a > system, could it predict with 100% certainty what will happen in the next > hh:mm:ss (for example) and that prediction would have to come true? No, because that supercomputer would also need to fully know it's own state, and that would require another supercomputer parallel with it, and so on, ad infinitum. There are also the implications of chaos theory, that extremely small variations in starting conditions have major implications for what unfolds. And because it is not possible to represent the analog, continuous world in a discreet, quantised way, there are always going to be errors in rounding up or down. Even the smallest starting error will cause any prediction of a dynamic system to be useless. > What this case scenario askes is if future is pre-determined or that > multiple outcomes are possible. > The future is not predetermined. It is undetermined. Because what happens next depends amongst other things on what we are doing now. And is it possible to do something other than what we are doing? Of course not, not in the same moment. By the time we know what we are doing, it is already past, unchangable, set in concrete, adding to the weight of past causes. So I would say that the future is neither pre-determined (ie knowable in advance) nor are multiple simultaneous outcomes possible. Cheers Herman #103225 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 3:33 am Subject: Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs rock rolling down the hill ptaus1 Hi Alex, Mike, all, A few of my thoughts: - Whenever I consider this topic, I always end up confusing conditionality with everything being mind-made. Of course, these two are not the same. Conditionality simply means that every single thing occurs due to conditions. Everything being mind-made means that every single thing occurs due to my past actions/accumulations. The first, I believe, is a Thervada position. The second, I believe, is (one of) Mahayana position(s). - Let's consider conditionality. Afaik, my current namas and rupas (cittas and cetasikas) will be (a) conditioned by my past actions and accumulations, so past namas, and (b) conditioned by present internal namas and rupas, as well as(!) external namas and rupas. So, there are a few important implications here: 0. some internal (my) namas arise conditioned by past internal namas. 1. some internal namas arise conditioned by some other present internal namas, which in turn arose conditioned by past namas. 2. some internal present rupas arise conditioned by present internal namas (citta). 3. some internal present rupas arise conditioned by past internal namas (kamma). 4. some internal present rupas arise conditioned by present external rupas (temperature, nutrition, or conventionally- weather, food, etc). 5. some present internal namas arise conditioned by present external rupas - like the sound of someone speaking to us about dhamma (and some of those external rupas were produced by external namas). - So there are multiple internal and external conditions for the present internal namas and rupas. If they were all internal and past, then we could say that everything is mind-made, but they are not. Now, the fact that we tend to conceptualize (while cognising) all the external input does not change the fact that these external things happened as paramattha dhammas. - Further, I think that it can be argued that all the external things are also dependent on their past internal conditions - i.e. someone's past namas influence his present ones, while past weather influences present weather for example, and thus, their combined present external influence on me is still fully dependent on (their) past. However, if we reason this way, then we drift into Mahayana view of collective karma, which is invalid in Theravada. So, even if their present state is determined by their past states - for me these are still external present conditions which I cannot control (nor have controlled in the past), and hence, they were not made by my (past) mind. - As to 'Choice', I think if we discuss abhidhamma, then we have to discuss how does a conventional notion "choice" translate in ultimate terms (if at all), or we'll be just talking past eachother. I mean - citta is an ultimate term, so we cannot talk about citta having "choice" because choice is a conventional term. I'd say the most related to choice are the cetasikas of volition, attention, a/moha. But they all have their very specific functions that we can discuss. - In conventional terms about choice, one way of thinking about it that I found helpful is to conclude that only when there's understanding - only then does choice appear for the first time. I.e. if there's no understanding, I act based on ingrained (past) good and bad habits. But when there is understanding, there's recognition that what is happening right now is just a habit, impersonal dhammas occurring. If they are impersonal, that means I don't have to act that way, i.e. there's the possibility of refraining from bad habits. But, the occurrence of understanding already brings about the refraining, there's no additional effort that has to be made for refraining to happen. Best wishes pt > A: I do not think that the Buddha has meant that absolutely everything that happens today is all 100% due to the past causes. If that was the case, then as the Buddha has said "a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past" . Even if you say that what happens today is also determined by PRESENT (rather than past causes), it still for all intents and purposes means the same things because you claim that PRESENT choice is due to past causes and without any degree of free will. In other words present 'choice' is totally predetermined (and thus it is total predetermination as to who will be a killer and who a saint). #103226 From: "billybobby717" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 3:38 am Subject: Sun Ya Ta ? billybobby717 Hello D.S.G.! I have heard that Sun Ya Ta is the word for the concept that everything has a universal essence that is the same? Is that true? Is this correct Buddha Dhamma according to the Tipataka? Is it the universal substance itself that is called Sun Ya Ta? What does the word mean? This sounds like something Mahayana? Thanks everybody! I DO appreciate the help while doing my best to study the Buddha Dhamma. Billy #103227 From: "colette" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ksheri3 Hi Herman, Ah, the two dimensional world that acedemics exist in. Hypothesis is as imaginary a world to exist as two dimensional worlds are rather imaginary to allow to exist. <...> But lets have fun with your hypo. It's not filled with saline solution is it? Just my own humor shining through. Anyway, back to your proposition. We have arrived at a point where you tax my IGNORANCE. What is a Lie or Falsehood? What is the Truth? One of the characteristics that I learned very early in life was to know "what I see" and "what I don't see". Boy, with some of the unsavory characters I've had the dubious distinction of hanging around with, AND ALWAYS BEING THE LOW MAN ON THE TOTEM POLE, I have done a marvelous job of honing my skills of distinguishing what I see and what I do not see. But we shall focus on your game of Risk or is it BLITZKRIEG? <..> Let me examine the situation here: > > Are you to be congratulated for telling the truth, and/or should you be > condemned for being an accomplice to brutality? > > <....> Your text book example would not work, in my case since I am not part of the STATUS QUO and my status as an OUTLIER has turned into one of my most treasured aspects of existance. I am happy to have Bob Dylan saying to me: "You're invisible now, you've got no secrets to conceal. HOW DOES IT FEEL?" I have lived as a hermit, I have lived as a student of the mysteries, I have lived as THE INVISIBLE MAN (see Queen's version on their last album), and I am perfectly happy with this existance. I would never have gotten myself in the hypothetical position you apply concerning our Dutch treats and their guests that dropped in from America. Good thought though. Oops, look at the time, gotta go <...> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: <..> > Let's play a little hypothetical game. It is WWII times. You are a Dutch > farmer, and you have hidden two American airmen in your attic, after their > plane crash landed in your paddock. > > Some German soldiers knock on your door and say "We are looking for some > American airmen. Have you seen them?" > > You reply: "Yes, they are up in my attic" > > Are you to be congratulated for telling the truth, and/or should you be > condemned for being an accomplice to brutality? #103228 From: "colette" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 11:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ksheri3 Hi Icaro, Glad that I give your day some "brightness" by discussing what you consider as being "basic" while I consider this stuff as fundamental necessity, at times, for instance in conceiving a "time line" of events, etc. Lets go with the last words about my comfort level in reading the Abhidharma. Lets not make the mistake of thinking that I find texts such as that to be good reading! Texts like that are as dry as dust. there is no emotion and no conception to inflict emotion. It's "flat line" material meaning that there is no life to it. I have learned to read texts such as that simply by being immersed in a non-orthodox reality, as Carlos Casteneda once said, "a seperate reality", and to take up time and to help me understand things that I do, such as magikal spells, et al, to help me understand what is going on around me, to help me understand what is happening inside the Yoni or Vessel called the human body, which so many people believe and admit that I do not have but they have a body that needs to be gratified, etc., I have learned to read and find great value in such texts. I appreciate them and the wisdom they put forth. However, they aren't my first choice of reading material. > Hmmm...no. > They are both tantric at core. colette: this helps me to better understand the relationship between the therevadan and the other schools of Buddhist thought/philosophy. RITE OFF THE BAT Tantra, from what I know, is not part of the Theravadan prossess. It's out of bounds. this also helps me to better "see" masters or yogis like Niropa and his consort Niguma in better lights. Ah, if Mahamudra is a Nyngma tradition then they both, Dzogchen and Mahamudra, are Nyngma traditions. At first I was mislead to think that Dzogchen was a Kagyu practice but found different a few years ago. > Abhidhamma´s Dathukatha That's new but maybe not. I'll look into it. sounds interesting. Alas, my time is up and I must go.I look forward to revisiting this reply later. Thank you for your generosity. toodles, colette Now lets get to the meat & potatos of the reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Icaro" wrote: > > Hi collete! > > I fell really happy when I can share some basic notions! <...> #103229 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 11:56 pm Subject: The Boat! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What brings beings over the Sea of Suffering? The Blessed Buddha once explained the means and method to escape pain: One should respect an intelligent one, from whom one can learn the Dhamma, just as the deities respect & honour their divine god Indra. Then with clear and elevated mind, he will reveal the Dhamma to one, when he is respected! If anyone cultivates such a great man carefully, making it his aim to listen and learn attentively, entering upon the Dhamma, and upon what conforms with the Dhamma, then his understanding will become intelligent and subtle! However, if one associates with the petty & envious fool, who has no direct experience of the aim, then one will die still pestered by perplexing doubts! Since how can a man, who has been dragged down into a swift-flowing river, who is been carried along with the current, ever help any others to cross? Similarly, how can one who has not learned the Dhamma, & has not listened to the explanations given by the learned ones, who is ignorant of it himself, and has not overcome doubt, help others to realize the stainless certainty? Just as one embarking upon a strong boat, with well build oars and rudder, could bring many others across there, being clever, considerate, knowing well how to do it. In exactly the same way can one, who is self-developed, who understands, who is learned and imperturbable make others realize it, if they have got the capacity to understand, and the willingness to listen... Therefore should one cultivate only a good man, who is clever and learned! Understanding the meaning, walking the Way by knowing the true Dhamma, one will thereby plunge into happiness... Sn 316-323 The Boat of Dhamma ferries beings across suffering to Happiness! <..> Have a nice Dhamma day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #103230 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 12:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? ksheri3 Hi Sarah, VERY GOOD! You picked up on my anxst about these "creationists" since I've been doing a lot of "alluding to" this verey hallucination that organized religion puts forth as reality. IS EVERYTHING PREDETERMINED? HOW LUDICROUS! Sure, cause & effect creates what can be seen as a psuedo-PREDETERMINATION of things but to wallow in that stye with those promiscuous creationists is asking for an STD to shorten your life. The tired who do not have the ability to discover an answer for themselves always fall back on this very type of thought as their patented EXCUSE to make it all feel and look good. Thanks, I'll do some reading. I just wanted to acknowledge that "somebody" has been "hearing" what I've been writing over the last week and has left me a moursel which I can feast upon, when they used that "subject line". I don't have the time to bother with any angst of mine right now so I'll get off and start reading. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Howard (& Alex), > > I thought the following was a very helpful response to Alex's comments: > > --- On Thu, 3/12/09, upasaka@... wrote: > >Not quite so easy, I think, Alex. There is, indeed, exertion. But it > is conditioned, is it not? And, in fact, it entirely depends on conditions > without any aspect of its arising being unconditioned, is that not so? And > as for there being the *possibility* for developing pa~n~na etc, is that not also entirely determined by conditions and not random? > What do we really mean by "free will"? I think it actually comes down > to the fact that there are thought processes that consider and compare > alternative actions, matching them against desired goals, and culminating in an act of volition. We *call* that process "deciding" and "exercising free will," but none of it is free in the sense of being random or unconditioned. > .... > S: Nicely put. Alex, dhammas arising now are not only conditioned by past conditions, but also by present conditions too, of course. If there were any exceptions to the arising of conditioned dhammas, a) wouldn't the Buddha have known and b) how would he have been able to have omniscient powers, able to foresee the future destinies of any beings he put his mind to? > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > #103231 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 12:50 am Subject: Label makers? Now there's a fine xmas gift.. ksheri3 Hi Icaro, BEfore I go into it, I'd like to ask this: Aren't I known for my association of the buddhist concept of NAME & FORM to the act of predjudice called "Labeling"? > Niropa looks like a deviant - his life, ways and teachings are very distinct of the popular idea of a "sacred guru" colette: again, this goes to my initial questions when I was recooperating from my automobile accident in 1978: "I wasn't consulted on naming the sun as the sun so how do I know that this schmuck that labeled the sun as the sun was not hiding some facts and DELIBERATELY and INTENTIONALL MISS LABELED or MISS REPRESENTED the sun as the sun, maybe the moon is the sun and nobody, at the time, took the time to research the rationale or reason behind applying this labele or name to the sun and the moon, etc." You suggest that out there in the reality we live with there is this label that is given to some rupa that was manufactured and came out through the out door of the assembly line, and this rupa was labeled as "Sacred Guru" Appearances are as decieving as hell i.e. "don't judge a book by it's cover". Sure, I give it to ya that there is such a mass of humanity out there that couldn't even hope to find even a second to spend of reading and performing these acts, these behaviors, and so, for this enormous mass of people, there must exist an easy way to deduce the reality. <..> No time to beat any dead horses, so I'll move on. ------------------------------- > Only after Gampopa and his Mahamudra dispensation such teachings reached the "Nibbana of Honourability" - colette: Aha, so now we have a POINT OF ORIGINATION: Gampopa. Don't worry, I'll stick with my tried and true procedure of research and the practices after and during research. But now I've got a point that I can "conceptualize" Tantra within the Buddhist sangha. Lovely technique! Thanx > They all were at the Mahamudra´s song in the beginning, but after Gampopa such high masters ought to be respectable persons! > colette: uh-oh, sounds like we have a standard upon which everything is measured, above. Do you suggest that Gampopa instituted a standard upon which all JUDGEMENT should be issued from and on? ARe those masters high because of the amount of THC in their bloodstream or are they high simply because they are standing on the graves of the many i.e. a soapbox upon which they sell their propoganda? DArn, again, this time my time at the library is finished and I have to go home to cook dinner for myself. I've gotta use up that meat in the bottom of the fridge, it's getting ripe. Thanx for the conversations and the tidbits of research that I'm gonna be feasting upon. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Icaro" wrote: > > Hi collete! > > I fell really happy when I can share some basic notions! <...> #103232 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 9:00 pm Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? ptaus1 Hi Billy, Sunyata I believe is a Mahayana term very similar to anatta and voidness in Theravada. "Anatta" is Pali language term that is often translated in English as not-self, no-self, impersonal, etc. So, afaik, it's like like a universal characteristic of all dhammas (I like the term "characteristic" a bit more than "essence"). As well as being one of the central pillars of Buddhism. You can read more about it in Useful Posts section (good posts from previous discussion on this forum): http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wCAfSylJMLrdIIwaDa5EQMobRcYhpQWH9rdfNgspF-IUAkEdlWZ\ bDV-YSg7PN-PAy7LXeN6Cw77x6vn_bSBT/Useful_Posts_October_2009.htm (Another way to get to Useful posts is to click on Files option in the menu to the right (just under Messages), which will then take you to a list of files where Useful posts will be one of the files, and click on that. If you have any questions about this, ask me.) Scroll down to "S" and you'll see "Sunnatta (Voidness)" section with the following posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8543 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26211 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50603 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/52577 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/52697 You can also chcek out other interestgin sections in Useful posts like anatta, dhamma, etc. Best wishes pt > I have heard that Sun Ya Ta is the word for the concept that everything has a universal essence that is the same? > Is that true? Is this correct > Buddha Dhamma according to the Tipataka? > Is it the universal substance itself that is called Sun Ya Ta? > What does the word mean? > > This sounds like something Mahayana? > > > Thanks everybody! I DO appreciate the help while doing my best to study the Buddha Dhamma. > #103233 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 9:52 pm Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? ptaus1 Hi Billy, A correction - the Files option is obviously in the menu on the left-hand side of the window (not right side as I said previously). Clicking on it will take you to the list of files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Useful posts file will be 9th file from the top, it's called Useful Posts October 2009. Sarah and Jon keep updating it. Best wishes pt > > (Another way to get to Useful posts is to click on Files option in the menu to the right (just under Messages), which will then take you to a list of files where Useful posts will be one of the files, and click on that. If you have any questions about this, ask me.) #103234 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 9:53 pm Subject: Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs connivance to kilesas ptaus1 Hi Mike, > M: In the case of the arising of cittas and cetasikas the situation is obviously similarly complex. At an ultimate level the cittas are rising and falling very rapidly, but certain cetasikas obviously don't just arise in a single citta. Anger can arise, and be a condition for the arising of further anger, in countless cittas, and this can sometimes last for a very long time... > > I'm obviously not saying anything new here, just what's in the Abhidhamma. I'm just trying to explain why I don't think that invoking "rapidity of citta" a helpful way of dismissing attempts to delve into complex effects that happen over time. pt: I remember asking about the same issue here some time ago. In particular, how to make that transition from a single citta scale, to the scale of multiple cittas arising in a certain pattern (like in anger for example). I think the overall advice back then was to not go that far, because the moment transition from one citta to many is made, there's a risk of conceptualizing realities and ending up conceiving some sort of atta in that, and thus missing the point. That said, there do seem to be certain occasions where abhidhamma does look at more than one citta at a time. The most obvious example is the 17 moments of citta sequence for a sense-door process and a 10-citta one for the mind-door process. Further than that, there are writings by Mahasi Sayadaw and Ledi Sayadaw that mention that several mind-door processes happen always in the same sequence after the sense-door process (i.e. first the color cognition, then the shape, then the label, etc), but this is already considered somewhat controversial. I think that further answers on this can be found by researching into dhamma niyama, but I haven't got my hands on any literature about this yet. Either way, I think that single citta scale is so often employed in abhidhamma simply because it lends itself so well to understanding the three marks and establishing the right view, which is the main concern in abhidhamma. Larger scale consideration necessarily involves some sort of conceptualization, so I think it needs to be clearly stated that's what you are after in this particular discussion. Best wishes pt #103235 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 9:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. > > pt: a)So arahats continue to develop their faculties? b)What's stopping them from developing their faculties up to the level of a sammasambuddha (like the unshared knowledges for example)? Thanks. > .... > S: a)Yes, no kamma, but bhavana(mental development) continues whenever there is right understanding... > > b)Impossible for anyone other than a bodhisatta (who has fulfilled all the conditions for becoming a bodhisatta in the presence of a previous (sammasam)Buddha) to become a sammasambuddha on attaining full enlightenment. Only one sammasambuddha in a Buddha era, so the next won't be until the teachings have completely died out, and the position has been filled a long, long time ago:-) > > Does that answer it? pt: Yes for (a). For (b) I'm still not sure what is it exactly that is stopping them - "fullfilled all the conditions for becoming a bodhisatta" - what are the "all conditions"? Thanks. Best wishes pt #103236 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship sarahprocter... Dear pt, --- On Wed, 9/12/09, ptaus1 wrote: >pt: Yes for (a). For (b) I'm still not sure what is it exactly that is stopping them - "fullfilled all the conditions for becoming a bodhisatta" - what are the "all conditions"? Thanks. .... S: [U.P. "Bodhisatta"] From the first link, #18577 - for starters!!: S:> Conditions for becoming a Bodhisatta: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits001.htm Jâtaka, vol. i., p. 14, l. 20: 1.- human being 2.- male 3.- only one who is capable of enlightenment in the life he makes the wish 4.- wish only in the presence of a living Buddha 5.- only a recluse or monk (not a layman) 6.- only one who has attained all jhanas and powers 7.- firm resolve and ‘ready to sacrifice his life for The Buddhas’ 8.- determination to develop paramis and qualities of a Buddha 9.-able to endure extraordinary and unbelievable hardship ***** Reasons for the time, place, family and mother of the future Buddha (last life time) http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits004.htm 1.- right time when length of life is between 100 and 100,000 years. At the time, the lives were 100 yrs, so it was right. Longer than 100,000 yrs and it’s impossible for beings to appreciate impermanence. â€?Also it is not the right time when men's lives are less than a hundred years. And why is it not the right time? Because mortals are then exceedingly corrupt; and an exhortation given to the exceedingly corrupt makes no impression, but, like a mark drawn with a stick on the surface of the water, it immediately disappears. This, therefore, also is not the right time.â€? 2.-right continent is India. Buddhas are only ever born in India. 3.- right place is the Middle Country for the same reason. (Lumbini falls in this area). “In this country are born The Buddhas, the Private Buddhas,1 the Chief Disciples, the Eighty Great Disciples, the Universal Monarch, and other eminent ones, magnates of the warrior caste, of the Brahman caste, and the wealthy householders. "And in it is this city called Kapilavatthu," thought he, and concluded that there he ought to be born. 4.- right family is the Sakkyan clan “ "The Buddhas," thought he, "are never born into a family of the peasant caste, or of the servile caste; but into one of the warrior caste, or of the Brahman caste, whichever at the time is the higher in public estimation. The warrior caste is now the higher in public estimation. I will be born into a warrior family, and king Suddhodana shall be my father." Thus he decided on the family.â€? 5.- right mother is Maha Maya “Then he made the observation concerning the mother. "The mother of a Buddha," thought he, "is never a wanton, nor a drunkard, but is one who has fulfilled the perfections through a hundred thousand cycles, and has kept the five precepts unbroken from the day of her birth. Now this queen Mahâ-Mâyâ is such a one; and she shall be my mother." “-- p. 42 [J.i.4928 ***** *****< Metta Sarah ====== #103237 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 11:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives, 316, 10, and commentary. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (Connie & Scott), There's a lot of useful material in this series. --- On Thu, 3/12/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: The source of siila is the citta. When we are listening > to the > Dhamma we come to see the danger of all akusala, even when > it is > slight. It is pa~n~naa that sees the danger of ignorance > and of all > akusala. <...>The > sotaapanna has eradicated the wrong view of self and he > cannot commit > akusala kamma that produces an unhappy rebirth. It is > clinging to an > idea of self, that causes one not being concerned for the > welfare of > others. When someone is only intent on his own happiness > and comfort > it may be a condition to hurt other beings. ... S: ...and this is why we stress the importance of understanding dhammas as anatta so much. The more understanding, the more siila, the more consideration for others as you explain. ... >By this sutta > we are > reminded of the power of pa~n~naa that can eventually > eradicate all > that is unwholesome. Pa~n~naa above all conditions the > growth of siila. ... S: Yes, impossible without pa~n~naa. For example, how would there ever be the growth of confidence in the value of abstaining from lying, killing, stealing, sexual misconduct or taking of intoxicants without a growth of understanding in the value of kusala and harm of akusala? Impossible. Metta Sarah ======= #103238 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 12:07 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 13 nilovg Dear friends, The teaching on the Dependent Origination explains why we are in this life, why we have to suffer old age, sickness and death. It explains the conditions for our life, for what we call our body and our mind. We may know in general that mind and body are dependent on conditions, but through the study of the Buddha’s teachings we will know more in detail what these conditions are and how they operate from birth to death. It is kamma which produces bodily phenomena from the first moment of life and also throughout life. Besides kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition also produce bodily phenomena. Kamma produces throughout life the sense-organs, the physical conditions for the pleasant and unpleasant experiences which are the mental results of kamma. We are heirs to kamma, it is unavoidable that there are loss, pain and other adversities of life. There are many kinds of kamma which were performed in the past, and what is done cannot be undone. When it is the right time kamma produces its appropriate result. Ignorance of cause and result in life conditions aversion and frustration on account of unpleasant experiences and this means more suffering. Understanding of the cause of suffering does not mean the immediate elimination of grief and depression. However, understanding can help one to be less overcome by despair about what is unavoidable, what is beyond control. More understanding means less suffering. The Buddha did not only teach that life is dukkha, he also taught the release from dukkha, namely the development of the wisdom which can eradicate ignorance and all defilements. ********** Nina. #103239 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 12:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] brief summary of insight knowledges in Patis nilovg Dear Alex and Lukas, Op 26-nov-2009, om 21:08 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > (11) Path knowledge (magga~na.na). This follows immediately next, and > consciousness makes Nibbana its object. Path knowledge abandons and > emerges from the formations both externally and internally. Right > view and the other seven path factors emerge from wrong view, etc. > 37 Factors of awakening are being developed. This is immediately > followed by fruition. (12)Fruition knowledge (phala-~na.na). The effort of emergence is now ceased. --------- N: quote Kh Sujin: < The fourteenth stage of vipassanå ñåùa is path knowledge, magga ñåùa. When gotrabhú has fallen away it is succeeded by the path- consciousness of the sotåpanna and this citta transcends the state of the ordinary person and reaches the state of the noble person, the ariyan. This citta eradicates defilements in accordance with the stage of enlightenment which has been reached. The fifteenth stage of vipassanå ñåùa is fruition knowledge, phala ñåùa. When the magga-citta of the sotåpanna has fallen away it conditions the arising of the succeeding citta, the phala-citta. The phala-citta which is lokuttara vipåkacitta immediately succeeds the magga-citta without any interval. Lokuttara kusala citta is kamma-condition for the vipåkacitta which follows without delay, without there being other cittas in between, and therefore it is called “without delay”, akåliko. Thus, lokuttara vipåkacitta is different from other kinds of vipåkacitta. The lokuttara vipåkacittas, which are two or three moments of citta arising in the magga-víthi and succeeding the magga- citta, perform the function of javana. Thus, they perform a function different from the functions performed by other types of vipåkacitta.> (end quote) Nina. #103240 From: Herman Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 12:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sun Ya Ta ? egberdina Hey Billy, Good to see you're still around. 2009/12/9 billybobby717 > > > Hello D.S.G.! > > I have heard that Sun Ya Ta is the word for the concept that everything > has a universal essence that is the same? > Is that true? Is this correct > Buddha Dhamma according to the Tipataka? > Is it the universal substance itself that is called Sun Ya Ta? > What does the word mean? > Suññata does not belong to any sectarian school of thought. You will find it comprehensively described in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html and http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.122.than.html Enjoy Herman #103241 From: Herman Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 1:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] speed of citta egberdina Hi Howard, 2009/12/8 > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 12/7/2009 12:43:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Hello Howard, all, > > > When it comes to measuring speed, it is always relative to something. > > 100km/h may be fast compared to walking speed, and be at snail pace in > comparison with a jet plane. Citta can be fast compared to rupa (17:1). > But in > comparison with else what can citta be ultra quick? What measures citta as > being fast or slow? Isn't measuring itself a conventional activity done by > the citta? > ------------------------------------------------- > Yes, but I think there is some objectivity to it. Citta objectively > changes more quickly than rupa, I believe. > ------------------------------------------------- > When I play A above middle C on my organ (stop that laughing in the background :-)), I hear a definite sound, of a specific pitch. People with absolute pitch will be able to accurately name the note being played on only hearing that sound, without looking at which key I pressed. That pretty well covers the experience of hearing A above middle C on my organ. Physicists, with all their rupa based instruments, have determined that a necessary cause of a sound of A above middle C is a vibration in the air impacting the ear drum at a rate of 440 cycles per second. Given that there is only the experience of a steady sound when listening to this sutsained note, while the underlying cause is a rapid change cycling at 440 Hz, why would you say that citta (steady) is quicker than rupa (440 Hz)? Cheers Herman #103242 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 1:54 am Subject: Re: Is everything predetermined like a rock rolling down the hill? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > A person who has studied Dhamma, has a new outlook on things. So can a citta train to have correct, rather than worldly attention? Of course sometimes the kilesas may be so strong that a lustful person has almost no possibility to refrain from staring at a hot girl. But does this mean that one cannot practice to avoid having wrong attention? > > Is attention as conditioned as a rock rolling down the hill? Or is there a possibility for choice (either do this or that)? > > > With metta, > > Alex Dear Alex and Mike When someone questions about choice it is proper to explain anatta in detail, as all buddhiost accpet anatta, it is a core axiom like rebirth. But accepting it can also be a way of ignoring what it actually means. . Because the conditions that make up each moment are often similar "we" look and feel somewhat the same from moment to moment and this is one aspect of how continuity deludes.As Mike noted anger can last for a long time for example. But it is all merely elements - that ceasely arise: "Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curisosity, and while it works and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too this materiality (rupa)-mentality (nama) is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness." Visuddhimagga XVIII 31 Usually we think "I'm interested or bored or excited or calm, or sad or happy or wise or confused or making effort or being negligent. Or if we know Dhamma we think "citta is calm or sad or choosng to do this or do that" i.e.perhaps still self view but not so obvious.. So there are only different elements performing different functions - and they have no agenda, no cuirosity : "The uninterestedness becomes evident to him though seeing rise and fall according to condition owing to his discovery of the inability of states to have mastery exercised over them. Then he more thoroughly abandons the self view." Visuddhimagga XX 102 "The characteristic of not-self becomes evident to him through seeing rise according to conditions owing to his discovery that states have no curiosity and have their existence depending upon conditions" XX 102 "All the formed bases(eye base, ear base, tongue base etc) should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence and after their fall their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery being exercisable over them since they exist in dependence on conditions and in between the past and the future." XV 15 No one thinks they can make seeing arise- it just happens instantly if they eyes are open..But the same applies also to the other elements which are all equally conditioned , such as deciding to go left or right... They often talk about dhatus (elements) in the suttas. What does it mean - element? There are several definitions including this: "Element is a term for what is soulesss." Visuddhimagga XV 22, and "They are only mere sortings out of suffering because no mastery is exercisable over them." Visuddhimagga XV 20 "There is removal of false view in one who sees thus: "If formations were self it would be right to take them as self; but being not-self they are taken as self. Therefore they are not self in the sense of no power being exercisable over them; they are impermanent in the sense of non-existence after having come to be; they are painful in the sense of oppression by rise and fall" Visuddhimagga XX 83 __________ Does this mean that everything is predetermined. Well what conditions were in place to read Dhamma today..how many aeons ago was the kamma made for this.. And of those who hear how many can understand .. One can think: from "now on I will strive and do my best and make a determination to have right view", and still go completly the wrong way, all the time sure one is right. All because of not seeing that there is no self, just elements that have no no interest, no curiosty, no more human like than a puppet or a robot. So then how is progress made, how does the right path come about. Only by right conditions..maybe I could explain those if you like? Robert #103243 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 2:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs rock rolling down the hill rjkjp1 A great old post by Mike nease: Explains why when people ask about choice oen needs to first know about anatta: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2458 Robert : In later years I gathered enough courage to question them[teachers] thoroughly and found many who truly believed in control. They would say that there is no self but then talk about - just as you said above - choice, and having sati just by concentrating, and the importance of intention (as if intention was something controllable). _________ Mike: This is such a fine and crucial point. I think that it's relatively easy to embrace anatta on a conceptual level, because, with a little understanding, it's easy to see how much unhappiness springs from the illusion of self (among other reasons). So we can reject atta out of plain old dosa... The idea of 'freedom'--meaning 'freedom of choice'--is MUCH harder to relinquish--especially (ironically) among those of us for whom 'liberation' is the central issue. I think this line of thinking usually goes something like this: "If 'I' can't choose patipada over pariyatti, or pariyatti over panyatti, If 'I' can't choose vipassana- over samatha-bhavana, If 'I' can't choose to investigate dhammas rather than to ignore them, to hear buddhadhamma rather than not to hear it, If 'I' can't choose to think, speak and act* in a wholesome way, then 'I' can never cultivate the eightfold path and attain liberation." So, 'I' don't mind giving up the idea of self, just so long as 'I'm' allowed to choose to do so (and receive the credit)...! Whether pariyatti or patipada or panyatti arises, whether samatha or vipassana bhavana is cultivated, whether dhammas are investigated or not, or buddhadhamma listened to or ignored, even whether kusala or akusala kamma is committed, NO ONE IS THERE in the arising, or the cultivation, or the investigation, listening, ignoring, thinking, speaking or acting. If there is no chooser, how can there be, or have been, a choice? Just wisdom or ignorance, in any possible situation, tipping the scale one way or the other depending on how much of each has accumulated. No one choosing or intending in any of these--just cause, and effect. So it really doesn't make much sense to argue about whether we'll meditate or not, or study abhidhamma or not, or contemplate our breath rather than aggregates or bases or elements. 'We' will do what conditions, internal and external, allow us to do, and not otherwise--ever. If sufficient wisdom has accumulated for us to think, say and do intelligent things, and not to think, say or do stupid things, that's just wisdom at work--not 'us'. mike #103244 From: Herman Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is everything predetermined like a rock rolling down the hill? egberdina Hi Alex and RobK, 2009/12/7 truth_aerator > Dear RobertK2, all, > > > People don't like this because they feel they can't do anything but in > fact it is progress if one is starting to realise that there is no one to do > anything. > > RobK There is a sutta which addresses this quaint view. I have previously renamed it the "Raw Prawn Sutta". Raw prawn is Australian for "Don't try to put one over me!" or "Don't treat me like a fool!". The sutta is quite unique, apparently not many in the Buddha's days lacked the shame to put forward such a view. Anguttara Nikaya III. 337, 338 8.The Raw Prawn Sutta "Then a certain Brahmin approached The Blessed One exchanged friendly greetings, sat on a side and said: Good Gotama I am of this view and say: Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others. Brahmin, don't come the raw prawn with me. I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone by himself approaching and receding say `Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' -- Alex and all, > > I like those quotes as well. However, for sense cognition to occur there > must be what is translated as "attention" or "engagement". > > A person who has studied Dhamma, has a new outlook on things. So can a > citta train to have correct, rather than worldly attention? Of course > sometimes the kilesas may be so strong that a lustful person has almost no > possibility to refrain from staring at a hot girl. But does this mean that > one cannot practice to avoid having wrong attention? > > Is attention as conditioned as a rock rolling down the hill? Or is there a > possibility for choice (either do this or that)? > A human being is not like a rock. Humans reproduce. Humans are aware. Humans have the capacity to learn and unlearn. Humans suffer. And when a human says there is no one to do anything you know they are coming the raw prawn with you. If only because they offer to write to you in great detail about their special understanding. Cheers Herman #103245 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sun Ya Ta ? upasaka_howard Hi, pt (and Billy) - In a message dated 12/9/2009 12:01:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ptaus1@... writes: Hi Billy, Sunyata I believe is a Mahayana term very similar to anatta and voidness in Theravada. "Anatta" is Pali language term that is often translated in English as not-self, no-self, impersonal, etc. ---------------------------------------------------- It is actually a Theravadin Pali term. Mahayana uses the Sanskrit 'shunyata'. And, yes, it's pretty much a synonym for 'anatta'. It's rendering in English is 'emptiness'. In this regard, please see the Su~n~na Sutta at _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.085.than.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.085.than.html) . Nyanatiloka's dictionary gives the following: * suñña (adj.), suññatÄ? (noun) void (ness), empty (emptiness). As a doctrinal term it refers, in TheravÄ?da, exclusively to the anattÄ? doctrine,.i.e. the unsubstantiality of all phenomena: "Void is the world ... because it is void of a self and anything belonging to a self" (suññam attena vÄ? attaniyena vÄ?; S. XXXV, 85); also stated of the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.) in the same text. See also M. 43, M. 106. - In CNidd. (quoted in Vis.M. XXI, 55), it is said: "Eye ... mind, visual objects ... mind-objects, visual consciousness ... mind-consciousness, corporeality ... consciousness, etc., are void of self and anything belonging to a self; void of permanency and of anything lasting, eternal or immutable.. They are coreless: without a core of permanency, or core of happiness or core of self." - In M. 121, the voiding of the mind of the cankers, in the attainment of Arahatship, is regarded as the "fully purified and incomparably highest (concept of) voidness. - See Sn.v.1119; M.121; M.122 (WHEEL 87); Pts.M. II: Suñña-kathÄ?; Vis.M. XXI, 53ff. -------------------------------------------------- So, afaik, it's like like a universal characteristic of all dhammas (I like the term "characteristic" a bit more than "essence"). As well as being one of the central pillars of Buddhism. You can read more about it in Useful Posts section (good posts from previous discussion on this forum): http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wCAfSylJMLrdIIwaDa5EQMobRcYhpQWH9rdfNgspF-IUAkEdlWZ\ bDV-YSg7PN-PAy7LXeN6Cw77x6vn_bSBT/Useful_P osts_October_2009.htm (Another way to get to Useful posts is to click on Files option in the menu to the right (just under Messages), which will then take you to a list of files where Useful posts will be one of the files, and click on that. If you have any questions about this, ask me.) Scroll down to "S" and you'll see "Sunnatta (Voidness)" section with the following posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8543 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26211 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50603 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/52577 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/52697 You can also chcek out other interestgin sections in Useful posts like anatta, dhamma, etc. Best wishes pt ======================================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103246 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] speed of citta upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 12/9/2009 4:20:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: When I play A above middle C on my organ (stop that laughing in the background :-)), I hear a definite sound, of a specific pitch. People with absolute pitch will be able to accurately name the note being played on only hearing that sound, without looking at which key I pressed. That pretty well covers the experience of hearing A above middle C on my organ. Physicists, with all their rupa based instruments, have determined that a necessary cause of a sound of A above middle C is a vibration in the air impacting the ear drum at a rate of 440 cycles per second. Given that there is only the experience of a steady sound when listening to this sutsained note, while the underlying cause is a rapid change cycling at 440 Hz, why would you say that citta (steady) is quicker than rupa (440 Hz)? ==================================== Acoustics stories aside, why do you say "citta (steady)"? Our consciousness isn't fixed, so far as I know, on a sound, but flits from sound to sights to bodily sensations etc and back. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103247 From: Herman Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] speed of citta egberdina Hi Howard, 2009/12/9 > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 12/9/2009 4:20:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > > When I play A above middle C on my organ (stop that laughing in the > background :-)), I hear a definite sound, of a specific pitch. People with > absolute pitch will be able to accurately name the note being played on > only > hearing that sound, without looking at which key I pressed. That pretty > well > covers the experience of hearing A above middle C on my organ. > > Physicists, with all their rupa based instruments, have determined that a > necessary cause of a sound of A above middle C is a vibration in the air > impacting the ear drum at a rate of 440 cycles per second. > > Given that there is only the experience of a steady sound when listening > to > this sutsained note, while the underlying cause is a rapid change cycling > at > 440 Hz, why would you say that citta (steady) is quicker than rupa (440 > Hz)? > > ==================================== > Acoustics stories aside, why do you say "citta (steady)"? Our > consciousness isn't fixed, so far as I know, on a sound, but flits from > sound to > sights to bodily sensations etc and back. > > Yes, consciousness flits about. But you are the one telling the consciousness story that it happens more rapidly than the flitting about of rupa. And I am saying that the acoustics stories say that if a note of a certain steady tone is heard, then even before consciousness can flit away from it, that rupa has had to be be changing in order to create the experience of a steady tone. That is why I say rupa changes quicker than citta. But why is it that you say the reverse? Cheers Herman #103248 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] speed of citta upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 12/9/2009 6:54:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Yes, consciousness flits about. But you are the one telling the consciousness story that it happens more rapidly than the flitting about of rupa. And I am saying that the acoustics stories say that if a note of a certain steady tone is heard, then even before consciousness can flit away from it, that rupa has had to be be changing in order to create the experience of a steady tone. That is why I say rupa changes quicker than citta. But why is it that you say the reverse? ================================ Ah, now I follow you. I consider the physics to be a good predictive theory. But when I speak of rupa, I'm not speaking of hypothesized external material elements, but of the material content of experience. During the time that we hear a tone, sights and other experiences have intervened. I am speaking in phenomenological terms, as I believe was the Buddha when he said that mind changes more rapidly than material form. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103249 From: Herman Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 4:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] speed of citta egberdina Hi Howard, 2009/12/9 > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 12/9/2009 6:54:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > > Yes, consciousness flits about. But you are the one telling the > consciousness story that it happens more rapidly than the flitting about > of > rupa. And I am saying that the acoustics stories say that if a note of a > certain steady tone is heard, then even before consciousness can flit away > from it, that rupa has had to be be changing in order to create the > experience of a steady tone. That is why I say rupa changes quicker than > citta. But why is it that you say the reverse? > ================================ > Ah, now I follow you. I consider the physics to be a good predictive > theory. But when I speak of rupa, I'm not speaking of hypothesized > external > material elements, but of the material content of experience. During the > time that we hear a tone, sights and other experiences have intervened. I > am > speaking in phenomenological terms, as I believe was the Buddha when he > said that mind changes more rapidly than material form. > > I know and appreciate that you are not asking for further elaboration, but I am going to indulge myself :-) Ignorance, IMO is, amongst other things, a statement of the fact that mind cannot sample the world in real time. We, in a manner of speaking, are always chasing our tails. Cheers Herman #103250 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 4:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] speed of citta ptaus1 Hi Herman, > H: And I am saying that the acoustics stories say that if a note of a > certain steady tone is heard, then even before consciousness can flit away > from it, that rupa has had to be be changing in order to create the > experience of a steady tone. That is why I say rupa changes quicker than > citta. You might have got this the wrong way around. Consider the sampling rate in digital audio - when it's 44.1kHz, maximum sound frequency that can be sampled is 22kHz (halved due to Nyquist theorem). If sampling rate increases, so does the maximum sound frequency that can be sampled. So, citta has to be faster than the change in rupa to be able to sample it in the first place. I.e. if citta was slower (say worked at a speed comparable to 200Hz) then it would never be able to detect the rate of change in rupa that's above 200Hz, i.e. it would be deaf to all sounds above 200Hz. Further, there are inherent limitations in the mechanics of how our hearing works - say the movement of bones in the middle ear can only be so fast, while the inner ear is physically not equipped to detect frequencies above 20kHz, unlike in other animals who can hear much above that. Best wishes pt #103251 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 4:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. > >pt: > For (b) I'm still not sure what is it exactly that is stopping them - "fullfilled all the conditions for becoming a bodhisatta" - what are the "all conditions"? Thanks. > ... > S: [U.P. "Bodhisatta"] > > 1.- human being > 2.- male > 3.- only one who is capable of enlightenment in the life he makes the wish > 4.- wish only in the presence of a living Buddha > 5.- only a recluse or monk (not a layman) > 6.- only one who has attained all jhanas and powers > 7.- firm resolve and ‘ready to sacrifice his life for The Buddhas’ > 8.- determination to develop paramis and qualities of a Buddha > 9.-able to endure extraordinary and unbelievable hardship pt: Okay, so standard bodhisatta conditions. Sorry, for some reason I assumed that you were implying there's some special kind of intentional pre-bodhisatta practice/career that must be fulfilled before one enters bodhisatta career. Best wishes pt #103252 From: Herman Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 4:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] speed of citta egberdina Hi pt, 2009/12/9 ptaus1 > Hi Herman, > > > > H: And I am saying that the acoustics stories say that if a note of a > > certain steady tone is heard, then even before consciousness can flit > away > > from it, that rupa has had to be be changing in order to create the > > experience of a steady tone. That is why I say rupa changes quicker than > > citta. > > You might have got this the wrong way around. Consider the sampling rate in > digital audio - when it's 44.1kHz, maximum sound frequency that can be > sampled is 22kHz (halved due to Nyquist theorem). If sampling rate > increases, so does the maximum sound frequency that can be sampled. > > I certainly accept that I may be wrong. But what is rupa and what is citta in your analysis? Where do you divorce the rupas of sound waves and the rupas of eardrums etc from hearing? > So, citta has to be faster than the change in rupa to be able to sample it > in the first place. I.e. if citta was slower (say worked at a speed > comparable to 200Hz) then it would never be able to detect the rate of > change in rupa that's above 200Hz, i.e. it would be deaf to all sounds above > 200Hz. Further, there are inherent limitations in the mechanics of how our > hearing works - say the movement of bones in the middle ear can only be so > fast, while the inner ear is physically not equipped to detect frequencies > above 20kHz, unlike in other animals who can hear much above that. > Just so you understand where I'm coming from, I view citta as the experience of the sound, not the causes of it. And I put forward that the experience of that sound is steady, unwavering, while it happens, while the causes of that are not. Cheers Herman #103253 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 4:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] speed of citta ptaus1 Hi Herman, > But what is rupa and what is citta > in your analysis? Rupa is sound (air molecules) vibrating at 200 Hz. Citta is in this case (grossly) equated to the sampling rate - sampling rate has to be at least as high as the sound frequency to be able to sample it in the first place (or perceive it in case of citta). So if humans can perceive max frequencies of 20kHz, then citta must change at least as fast (20000 times per second). However, as mentioned, human hearing is mechanically limited, and some animals can hear well over 20kHz, so citta must be even faster. > Where do you divorce the rupas of sound waves and the > rupas of eardrums etc from hearing? Ear drum just transfers the air vibration to the middle ear, so it's resonating at the same rate as the sound (air molecules) for the purposes of our example, so it can still be considered as rupa (same for the middle ear and inner ear which just transform mechanical energy into electrical impulses which go to the brain). > And I put forward that the experience of > that sound is steady, unwavering, while it happens, while the causes of that > are not. This is an illusion due to lack of training in listening - if you were a piano tuner for example, you'd be trained to perceive the harmonics that constitute a complex tone when you press a key on your piano ( or was it organ), i.e. in that same tone, you'd be able to perceive the sound frequencies which are multiples of the base harmonic - so for a 440Hz base, that would be 880Hz, 1320hz, 1760hz, etc. Best wishes pt *p.s. sorry, I gotta run now, so in case you have some questions, I won't be able to reply to your post today, but will try tomorrow for sure #103254 From: Herman Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] speed of citta egberdina Hello ptaus, 2009/12/9 ptaus1 > Hi Herman, > > > But what is rupa and what is citta > > in your analysis? > > Rupa is sound (air molecules) vibrating at 200 Hz. Citta is in this case > (grossly) equated to the sampling rate - sampling rate has to be at least as > high as the sound frequency to be able to sample it in the first place (or > perceive it in case of citta). So if humans can perceive max frequencies of > 20kHz, then citta must change at least as fast (20000 times per second). > However, as mentioned, human hearing is mechanically limited, and some > animals can hear well over 20kHz, so citta must be even faster. > > > Where do you divorce the rupas of sound waves and the > > rupas of eardrums etc from hearing? > > Ear drum just transfers the air vibration to the middle ear, so it's > resonating at the same rate as the sound (air molecules) for the purposes of > our example, so it can still be considered as rupa (same for the middle ear > and inner ear which just transform mechanical energy into electrical > impulses which go to the brain). > > > And I put forward that the experience of > > that sound is steady, unwavering, while it happens, while the causes of > that > > are not. > > This is an illusion due to lack of training in listening - if you were a > piano tuner for example, you'd be trained to perceive the harmonics that > constitute a complex tone when you press a key on your piano ( or was it > organ), i.e. in that same tone, you'd be able to perceive the sound > frequencies which are multiples of the base harmonic - so for a 440Hz base, > that would be 880Hz, 1320hz, 1760hz, etc. > > I have added a new photo to a section called piano tuners. Feel free to have a look. The truck was mine. The person in the cabin of the truck is not me, it is my son, more than 20 years ago. Cheers Herman #103255 From: Herman Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] speed of citta II egberdina Hi ptaus, 2009/12/9 ptaus1 > Hi Herman, > > > But what is rupa and what is citta > > in your analysis? > > Rupa is sound (air molecules) vibrating at 200 Hz. Citta is in this case > (grossly) equated to the sampling rate - sampling rate has to be at least as > high as the sound frequency to be able to sample it in the first place (or > perceive it in case of citta). So if humans can perceive max frequencies of > 20kHz, then citta must change at least as fast (20000 times per second). > However, as mentioned, human hearing is mechanically limited, and some > animals can hear well over 20kHz, so citta must be even faster. > > > Where do you divorce the rupas of sound waves and the > > rupas of eardrums etc from hearing? > > Ear drum just transfers the air vibration to the middle ear, so it's > resonating at the same rate as the sound (air molecules) for the purposes of > our example, so it can still be considered as rupa (same for the middle ear > and inner ear which just transform mechanical energy into electrical > impulses which go to the brain). > > > And I put forward that the experience of > > that sound is steady, unwavering, while it happens, while the causes of > that > > are not. > > This is an illusion due to lack of training in listening - if you were a > piano tuner for example, you'd be trained to perceive the harmonics that > constitute a complex tone when you press a key on your piano ( or was it > organ), i.e. in that same tone, you'd be able to perceive the sound > frequencies which are multiples of the base harmonic - so for a 440Hz base, > that would be 880Hz, 1320hz, 1760hz, etc. > > Best wishes > pt > > *p.s. sorry, I gotta run now, so in case you have some questions, I won't > be able to reply to your post today, but will try tomorrow for sure > > > Having established my bona fides, what is your excuse for what you have done to hundreds of people at e-sangha? Cheers Herman #103256 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 7:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs rock rolling down the hill nilovg Dear Robert, Thanks for your two posts. Very good. I printed them out to discuss with Lodewijk! Nina. Op 9-dec-2009, om 11:01 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > Mike: > > This is such a fine and crucial point. I think that it's relatively > easy to embrace anatta on a conceptual level, because, with a > little understanding, it's easy to see how much unhappiness springs > from the illusion of self (among other reasons). So we can reject > atta out of plain old dosa... #103257 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 7:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The beginning... nilovg Dear Alex, Op 8-dec-2009, om 23:31 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > paññÄ?yati= appears; is clear or evident. > There is difference between something being "unknown" and "not > existing at all". > > So epistemologicaly we may not find (na paññÄ?yati) the first > point, since consciousness cannot know the unknowable (one can't > directly be conscious of unconsciousness). But Ontologically it may > be different. ------- N: Agreed with what you say in the beginning, but then you say: ontologically... I think that this way of thinking distracts from what has to be done now: developing understanding of seeing, hearing, anger that appear at this moment, so that a very slight amount of ignorance wears out. Nina. #103258 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 7:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) nilovg Dear Alex, Op 7-dec-2009, om 23:08 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > "In-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with the whole body > [of breaths] are Purification of Virtue in the sense of restraint; > they are Purification of Cognizance in the sense of non-distraction > (avikkhepa); they are Purification of View in the sense of seeing > (dassana). The meaning of restraint therein is training(sikkhaa) in > the Higher Virtue(adhisila); the meaning of non-distraction therein > is training in the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta); the meaning of > seein therein is training in the Higher Understanding(adhipannaa)." > > In fact Anapanasati can be used for all three type of trainings > (Higher Virtue, Higher Mind, Higher Understanding). > > Anapanasati also fulfills 4 satipatthanas, so it can be used as an > insight practice as well. ------ N: Certainly, the Visuddhimagga describes this in detail as you know. When the term adhi siila etc. is used it is implied that this is training with awareness and understanding of naama and ruupa. At the moment of right awareness and right understanding of whatever dhamma appears there is adhisiila, adhicitta and adhipa~n~naa. Nina. #103259 From: "connie" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 7:34 am Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 36-37) nichiconn dear pt and all, Illustrator on: [Stanza 10] 36. Here is its meaning. 'He gave (adaasi) this money to me (me) or this corn, and he worked (akaasi) at this task for me (me) by undertaking the mangement of it himself, and he was my kin (~naati) since he was connected on the mother's or the father's side, or he was my friend (mittaa) since he was capable of being a shelter by his affection, or he was my intimate (sakhaa) since he was my fellow refuse-rag wearer [in the life gone forth]'. And so, recalling all this in this way, let him give gifts, then, for departed ones (petaana"m dakkhi.na"m dajjaa [taking dakki.na"m as acc. governed by dajjaa taken as a form of the optative = dadeyya]), let him consign the almsgiving. Another reading is petaana"m dakkhi.naa dajjaa ('a gift is meet-to-be-given for the departed' [taking dajjaa as gerundive adj. agreeing with nom. f. sing. dakkhi.naa]); this means that dajjaa = daditabbaa [normal gerundive adj.]; what is that? It is that gift (dakkhi.naa) for the departed; what is expressed is this: [this should be done] by one who recalls, recalling what they used to do (pubbe kata"m anussara"m) in the way beginning 'He gave to me'; and then the nominative case [of the present participle anussara"m] should be understood to have the scope of the instrumental, [that is, anussarataa.] 37. So the Blessed One said Adaasi me, akaasi me, ~naatimittaa sakhaa ca me Petaana"m dakkhi.na"m dajjaa pubbe kata"m anussara"m. '"He gave to me, he worked for me, 'He was my kin, friend, intimate". 'Give gifts, then, for departed ones, 'Recalling what they used to do.' And when he had said this, showing examples for recollection in the consigning of an almsgiving for the departed, [214] he then uttered the stanza, namely, 'No weeping', showing that while people remain overpowered by weeping and sorrow, etc., on the death of their relative and give nothing for their benefit, their tears and sorrow are only a self-mortification quite sterile of any benefit for the departed ones. ... to be continued, connie #103260 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 7:57 am Subject: Re: Is everything predetermined like a rock rolling down the hill? truth_aerator Dear RobertK2, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Alex and Mike > When someone questions about choice it is proper to explain anatta in detail, as all buddhiost accpet anatta, it is a core axiom like rebirth. But accepting it can also be a way of ignoring what it actually means. > . I accept Anatta. I just am not too sure that it necessitates the "no choice, no free will of any degree". I think that Atta (in which I do *not* believe) and Self-Existent entites view make free will impossible. When there are things that exist all due to themselves, then there isn't any conditions that can affect them. Thus no choice (which is a a condition for intentional action). Maybe quite because that all things are anatta, and conditions, they can changed due to causes and conditions. The will that impersonal process cultivates can become an important driving condition for development in that direction. Only eternal and unchanging essence cannot possibly do anything (because then it would not be an eternal or unchanging essence). I deny eternal and unchanging essence. > > Usually we think "I'm interested or bored or excited or calm, or sad or happy or wise or confused or making effort or being negligent. Or if we know Dhamma we think "citta is calm or sad or choosng to do this or do that" i.e.perhaps still self view but not so obvious.. > So there are only different elements performing different functions - and they have no agenda, no cuirosity : > Not all think that way. Some think "such and such a citta has arisen... All this is impersonal process." Thank you for all your quotes, I do go over some of them regularly and has made my own cut outs to study. As I have said at the top of this post, I believe that ATTA & "eternalism" denies free will. But anatta allows free will. With metta, Alex #103261 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The beginning... truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Op 8-dec-2009, om 23:31 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > > > paññÄ?yati= appears; is clear or evident. > > There is difference between something being "unknown" and "not > > existing at all". > > > > So epistemologicaly we may not find (na paññÄ?yati) the first > > point, since consciousness cannot know the unknowable (one can't > > directly be conscious of unconsciousness). But Ontologically it may > > be different. > ------- > N: Agreed with what you say in the beginning, but then you say: > ontologically... > I think that this way of thinking distracts from what has to be done > now: developing understanding of seeing, hearing, anger that appear > at this moment, so that a very slight amount of ignorance wears out. > Nina. Dear Nina, (and all interested) You may be right here. But I was just pointing out that the Buddha didn't say in absolute terms that there is no beginning. Only that it is not evident (some things may not be known, but the lack of knowledge does not refute their existence). With metta, Alex #103262 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 7-dec-2009, om 23:08 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > "In-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with the whole body > > [of breaths] are Purification of Virtue in the sense of restraint; > > they are Purification of Cognizance in the sense of non-distraction > > (avikkhepa); they are Purification of View in the sense of seeing > > (dassana). The meaning of restraint therein is training(sikkhaa) in > > the Higher Virtue(adhisila); the meaning of non-distraction therein > > is training in the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta); the meaning of > > seein therein is training in the Higher Understanding(adhipannaa)." > > > > In fact Anapanasati can be used for all three type of trainings > > (Higher Virtue, Higher Mind, Higher Understanding). > > > > Anapanasati also fulfills 4 satipatthanas, so it can be used as an > > insight practice as well. > ------ > N: Certainly, the Visuddhimagga describes this in detail as you know. > When the term adhi siila etc. is used it is implied that this is > training with awareness and understanding of naama and ruupa. > At the moment of right awareness and right understanding of whatever > dhamma appears there is adhisiila, adhicitta and adhipa~n~naa. > > Nina. Dear Nina, RobertK2, all, And anapanasati can be used as training in adhisila, adhicitta and adhipanna. It can be used for insight cultivation and it can be used in such a way that nama and rupa are seen. Anapanasati does fulfill Satipatthana. With metta, Alex #103263 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 8:47 am Subject: Whats the problem with "formal" meditation? truth_aerator Dear Nina, Robertk2, KenH, all, As I understand it, the key point of difference is the "formal meditation implies the belief of Self that can control." Well, not all meditators or teachers do that. When I was doing Mahasi like Meditation in meditation retreat we were grilled about no-self and seeing nama & rupa appearing now. Also Ajahn Brahm is very heavy on "no control" in his teaching of Jhana. So it doesn't seem to me that that kind of anatta criticism of the formal teachings of certain monks is always valid. They themselves often drill the students on not-self, no-control. If there is a choice making it doesn't have to be akusala. Why can't there be choice aimed at more kusala? It may not be right to expect worldlings to behave like Arhats just prior to attaining Stream Entry. Even high level aryans (Anagami) have a degree of conceit "I AM" and some lobha. Bhikkhu Dhammadharo: -- "If you try to concentrate on your feet going around no awareness of anything." - There is awareness of rupa, there is awareness of walking (Which is one of satipatthana exercises). There can be satipatthana awareness! "It is just a self who is trying to direct awareness," Not necessary. Even the Buddha, or his Arahants, directed their awareness here or there. It is possible to do actions WITHOUT self view. Otherwise Arahants wouldn't be able to do anything, or to decide anything, or to intend anything. "an idea of what you think awareness is, to some place or other of the body, because we want to know this, we want to know that. It is not natural. It is not getting rid of attachment, it is increasing it." http://www.dhammastudy.com/behere.html I couldn't read much further than that point as there are fundamental disagreements. Lobha doesn't always have to be with self view. Trainees (Stages below Arhatship) can have lobha, but they don't have Self View sakkayaditthi. Not all lobha mula citta has ditthi! Lobha mula citta can be without views, and even trainees up to Anagami level can have certain kinds of greed. Anagamis still have residual conceit "I AM" and thus it is unrealistic to expect a worldling to always have no lobha and no conceit "I AM" to become a stream winner. Not every attachment is *bad*. Some attachment to skillful qualities initially is good (but in the course of cultivation it will eventually be let go off once they can develop on their own). Example attachment to doing good things, attachment to developing kusala, etc. You can't let go of the boat prior to using to to crossing the sea or in the middle of the sea! There is time and place to use it and to lose it. With metta, Alex #103264 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 9:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Whats the problem with "formal" meditation? ashkenn2k Dear Alex The issue with formal meditation is that could it be akusala at at work. This is to dispel others claim that AS is against meditation. She just wants people to know the the importance to see the danger of the incorrect way of doing samatha: A survery of paramatha dhamma - The development of samantha <> Cheers Ken O #103265 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 9:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) ashkenn2k Dear Alex >And anapanasati can be used as training in adhisila, adhicitta and adhipanna. It can be used for insight cultivation and it can be used >in such a way that nama and rupa are seen. Anapanasati does fulfill Satipatthana. KO: Why wait to do anapanasait to see nama and rupa. Even while you are writing this email, they are already nama and rupa. Visible object is rupa, visible citta is nama. To keep it simple, you could just understand rupa, visible object. We cannot stop ourselves from experience nama and rupa in our daily lives. Only by understanding reality at the moment even if now is the conventional level seeing and not paramatha dhamma level is developing the understanding of nama and rupa. It should be now and why wait for anapanasati? Why waste the rest of the day where nama and rupa keeps appearing. Cheers Ken O #103266 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 9:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The beginning... ashkenn2k Dear Alex >You may be right here. But I was just pointing out that the Buddha didn't say in absolute terms that there is no beginning. Only that it is not evident (some things may not be known, but the lack of knowledge does not refute their existence). There is a sutta about the ten things which dont explain. I forget which one already. Even if you have known the first begining, then one will ask how does the first begining happen? Is like asking if God created humans, then who created God, then who created the creater of God? It never ends and it is not helpful Cheers Ken O #103267 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 9:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 1 ashkenn2k Dear Nina After reading the A Survery of Paramatha Dhamma, the message is clear, if we dont see reality at the present moment, we will keep attach to them especially concepts. So I felt we should relook at Realities and Concept again. I starting this series and hope I could end it. One of my experience this morning when I happened to look at a beautiful object, After looking at that book, this object is just visible object that is appearing now. Then I am aware there is craving arise, it is just craving that arise. If nama and rupa are not understand properly, one will be attached to concept. When it is attend properly, one realise it is just nama and rupa, there is no self that craves, what crave is craving, what see is seeing, what appear is just visible rupa. When one seeing reailty at the moment, it is just nama and it is just rupa. Simple message but a very truthful way of developing satipatthana. One does not worry whether one could see the characteristics of nama and rupa. When panna becomes keener and keener, such understanding of characteristics will arise naturally. Not agited, not worry, not thinking too much or label it because they very likely will condition clinging. Cheers Ken O #103268 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 9:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) truth_aerator Dear KenO, Nina, RobertK2, and all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > >And anapanasati can be used as training in adhisila, adhicitta and >adhipanna. It can be used for insight cultivation and it can be used >in such a way that nama and rupa are seen. Anapanasati does fulfill >Satipatthana. > > KO: Why wait to do anapanasait to see nama and rupa. I couldn't help it. It is conditioning that I can do nothing about... Recently there is more and more awareness during all activities. However the Buddha DID often talk very highly of anapanasati. I can't just ignore what he has said. According to the commentaries there are 4 types of people. Two of them do not need formal practice (they can become awakened by hearing the Buddha explain in brief or detail), the other type (neyya) has to practice in addition to hearing. Anapanasati can help the awareness to be clearer, deeper and without hindrances. Anapanasati itself can be entire satipatthana. With metta, Alex #103269 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 10:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs rock rolling down the hill ashkenn2k Dear Alex >I do not think that the Buddha has meant that absolutely everything that happens today is all 100% due to the past causes. If that was the case, then as the Buddha has said "a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past" . Even if you say that what happens today is also determined by PRESENT (rather than past causes), it still for all intents and purposes means the same things because you claim that PRESENT choice is due to past causes and without any degree of free will. In other words present 'choice' is totally predetermined (and thus it is total predetermination as to who will be a killer and who a saint). KO: Definitey, I dont think we claim what happened today is 100% from past live. What we claim is that we should understand the conditions of nama and rupa. I dont worry whether what happen today is because of yesterday. I am not concern whether there is self that make a choice, or control. What interest me is nama and rupa, that is the development there. I definitely not worry about whether we should do more actions to improve our understanding of the dhamma, where one could do it now. I have spoken enough of this subject and I felt I should end my conversation on deterministic with you. Sorry I have to leave it as it is. To you, I may see deterministic. To those who like me, who like to understand more about nama and rupa at the present moment, it is good enough for me for a long time :-). Cheers Ken O #103270 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 10:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) ashkenn2k Dear Alex >> KO: Why wait to do anapanasait to see nama and rupa. > >I couldn't help it. It is conditioning that I can do nothing about... >Recently there is more and more awareness during all activities. However the Buddha DID often talk very highly of anapanasati. >I can't just ignore what he has said. KO: I hope you read the email earlier which I sent about samatha practise. We should be aware of the pitfalls. > >According to the commentaries there are 4 types of people. Two of them do not need formal practice (they can become awakened by hearing the Buddha explain in brief or detail), the other type (neyya) has to practice in addition to hearing. > >Anapanasati can help the awareness to be clearer, deeper and without hindrances. Anapanasati itself can be entire satipatthana. KO: The two of them who dont need formal practise is because of they have developed panna for many lives in their past lives. Practise is of many kinds, ours is the nama and rupa way. :-) I got no comments on Anapanasati because I am not good in this subject and could not help you on this. Cheers Ken O #103271 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 10:15 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 2 ashkenn2k Dear all  Ignorance is deeply rooted and very persistent. It conditions us to cling to conventional truth and to take realities for things, beings, and people. From the moment of rebirth-consciousness there are nÃ¥ma and rúpa which are arising and falling away, succeeding one another all the time. When we leave our mother's womb and enter this world we experience the sense objects which appear through the six doors. We see, hear, smell, taste, and experience cold and heat through the bodysense. We do not know that what appears through the eyes is only a kind of reality that can be seen, visible object. Realities arise and fall away and succeed one another all the time, but it seems as if they do not arise and fall away and thus they are taken for “somethingâ€?. We cling to a concept of things as a mass, a conglomeration or whole (gaùa paññatti). We may do this even when we don’t know yet the conventional terms of things. Even small children, who cannot talk yet and do not know the meanings of things as expressed in language, and also animals, know concepts of a “wholeâ€?. When a child grows up it learns the correct meaning of the words used in language which denote concepts. Thus, the child becomes familiar with conventional truth.  If we only know conventional truth, and do not develop right understanding of nÃ¥ma (mentality) and rúpa (physical phenomena), realities appear as if they do not arise and fall away. It seems that we see things, beings, and people. We may touch a cup, a plate, a spoon or fork, but in reality it is just the element of earth4 or hardness that is touched. What do we see or touch in daily life? When we touch something we are not used to realizing that the reality of hardness can be touched. We have the feeling that we touch a spoon, a fork, a plate, a cup. Since realities arise and fall away and succeed one another very rapidly we cling to the shape and form of things, to a conglomeration or mass. It seems that the spoon is hard, the fork is hard, the cup is hard, the plate is hard. In reality, what is touched is only the rúpa (physical phenomena) which is hardness, the element of hardness. Since we remember the different shapes and forms of things we know that a cup is not a dish, a spoon is not a fork. What is real in the absolute sense is rúpa dhamma, which has the characteristic of hardness, but we remember only what is real in the conventional sense. We remember that a dish is for serving rice, a bowl for curry and a spoon for serving food.  to be continue  Cheers Ken O #103272 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 11:39 am Subject: Arhats, and their state of mind when hurt truth_aerator Dear Nina, KenO, all, If lets say an Arahant is hurt by someone (ex: When Ven. MahaMoggallana or Angulimala was brutally beaten by bandits) or if an Arhat experiences painful bodily health problems. What sorts of citta have occurred during those painful moments? From one side they have been seriously (physically hurt) which includes dukkha-vedana. On the other side they experience only sobhana vipaka/kiriya citta which either feel joy or equanimity. Dukkha-vedana (even physical?) is akusala-vipaka, right? So what happens in case of an Arhat? Does s/he still have a little bit of akusala vipaka left? Thank you, Alex #103273 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 11:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arhats, and their state of mind when hurt nilovg Dear Alex, Op 9-dec-2009, om 20:39 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > From one side they have been seriously (physically hurt) which > includes dukkha-vedana. On the other side they experience only > sobhana vipaka/kiriya citta which either feel joy or equanimity. ------ N: They feel bodily pain but not mental unhappy feeling. ------- > > A: Dukkha-vedana (even physical?) is akusala-vipaka, right? So what > happens in case of an Arhat? Does s/he still have a little bit of > akusala vipaka left? ------- N: Because of past kamma performed before he became an arahat he can even feel strong pain. But this does not disturb him in the least. ------ Nina. #103274 From: "Icaro" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) icarofranca Hi Colette! > > Ah, if Mahamudra is a Nyngma tradition then they both, Dzogchen and >Mahamudra, are Nyngma traditions. At first I was mislead to think >that Dzogchen was a Kagyu practice but found different a few years >ago. No no no...au contraire! Mahamudra belongs to Kagyu iniciation: Tilopa-Naropa-Marpa-Milarepa-Gampopa and series of Kagyu masters. Dzogchen belongs to Niyngma tradition, begining with Guru Eimpoche, also called Padmasambhava. If you consider Abhidhamma texts as "the dry bones of Dhamma" - as Mrs. Rhys-Davies once said - read them with the Mahamudra point of view of non-duality: no choices, no divisions, beyond concepts, beyond mind. If you do it, Abhidhamma will buddeth forth for you the smell of true Dhamma! > > > Abhidhamma´s Dathukatha > > That's new but maybe not. I'll look into it. sounds interesting. Some teachings are embedded in books, other aren´t. Some begins with oral traditions and end in books. Other begin with books and end in oral teachings...and there are teachings that begin with oral traditon and end in...oral tradition... ...And the Mahamudra Song! ^_^ Mettaya, Ícaro #103276 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 3:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] speed of citta ptaus1 Hi Herman, > H: I have added a new photo to a section called piano tuners. Feel free to have > a look. The truck was mine. The person in the cabin of the truck is not me, > it is my son, more than 20 years ago. So you are a piano tuner? Excellent, as I also often work with acoustics, we can have an in-depth discussion without trying to avoid the acoustics explanations. Please let me know what in my example is confusing you or doesn't agree with you and we'll discuss further. Best wishes pt #103277 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 4:24 pm Subject: Re: Whats the problem with "formal" meditation? kenhowardau Hi Alex, ---------- A: > As I understand it, the key point of difference is the "formal meditation implies the belief of Self that can control." Well, not all meditators or teachers do that. When I was doing Mahasi like Meditation in meditation retreat we were grilled about no-self and seeing nama & rupa appearing now. Also Ajahn Brahm is very heavy on "no control" in his teaching of Jhana. So it doesn't seem to me that that kind of anatta criticism of the formal teachings of certain monks is always valid. They themselves often drill the students on not-self, no-control. -------------- To quote an old proverb: a man cannot serve two masters. And, let's be honest, your master is the "formal practice style of Buddhism." Therefore, you cannot possibly see what we are talking about when we say there is no right formal practice. We can talk to you until we are literally blue in the face (dead) but we will never get through to you while you are serving that other master. ---------------- A: > If there is a choice making it doesn't have to be akusala. Why can't there be choice aimed at more kusala? It may not be right to expect worldlings to behave like Arhats just prior to attaining Stream Entry. Even high level aryans (Anagami) have a degree of conceit "I AM" and some lobha. ---------------- All of that is irrelevant to what we have been trying to tell you. It misses the point. ------------------------ A: > Bhikkhu Dhammadharo: -- "If you try to concentrate on your feet going around no awareness of anything." > Alex - There is awareness of rupa, there is awareness of walking (Which is one of satipatthana exercises). There can be satipatthana awareness! ------------------------------------ As I was saying, we can talk to you until we are blue in the face. How many times have we told you that the Buddha did *not* *ever* teach concentration on the act of walking! As the commentary to the Satipatthana sutta points out, anybody - including dogs and jackals - can do that kind practice. Why would a Buddha waste his time teaching such a simple, run-of-the-mill, activity! How could it possibly be the Way Out (satipatthana)? -------------------- A: > "It is just a self who is trying to direct awareness," Not necessary. -------------------- Yes, necessary! See the Ongha Sutta: Trying to cross the flood by either striving or standing still is the way of the two self views. --------------------------- A: > Even the Buddha, or his Arahants, directed their awareness here or there. -------------------------- In ultimate reality *no one* does anything by striving or by standing still. Everything is conditioned. --------------------------- A: > It is possible to do actions WITHOUT self view. --------------------------- Yes, by conditions. Cetana (doing) occurs most often without self view. (This is something we have been telling you.) ------------------------------------ A: > Otherwise Arahants wouldn't be able to do anything, or to decide anything, or to intend anything. ------------------------------------- Yes. Except you are insisting that "doing" requires free will and the existence of a sentient being. Otherwise (if you weren't insisting that) you would have no argument with us on the "no-control" side. ---------------- A: > B.D. > "an idea of what you think awareness is, to some place or other of the body, because we want to know this, we want to know that. It is not natural. It is not getting rid of attachment, it is increasing it." http://www.dhammastudy.com/behere.html Alex - I couldn't read much further than that point as there are fundamental disagreements. ------------------ I am glad you recognise that. A man cannot serve two masters: no one can have 'belief in formal practice' and 'belief in no-control' at the same time. ---------------------------- A: > Lobha doesn't always have to be with self view. Trainees (Stages below Arhatship) can have lobha, but they don't have Self View sakkayaditthi. Not all lobha mula citta has ditthi! Lobha mula citta can be without views, and even trainees up to Anagami level can have certain kinds of greed. Anagamis still have residual conceit "I AM" and thus it is unrealistic to expect a worldling to always have no lobha and no conceit "I AM" to become a stream winner. ---------------------------- Yes, these are things we have been trying to tell you. But you can't hear. You twist them around and turn them into weapons against anatta. --------------------- A: > Not every attachment is *bad*. -------------------- That's something we have *not* been trying to tell you. :-) ----------------------------- A: > Some attachment to skillful qualities initially is good (but in the course of cultivation it will eventually be let go off once they can develop on their own). Example attachment to doing good things, attachment to developing kusala, etc. ----------------------------- 'Doing good' and 'attachment to doing good' are different moments. Different cittas. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas. ------------------------------------------- A: > You can't let go of the boat prior to using to to crossing the sea or in the middle of the sea! There is time and place to use it and to lose it. -------------------------------------------- That's a clever analogy! :-) But the Dhamma (the vessel for crossing over) does not require lobha. It requires tenacity and energy, but not lobha. Ken H #103278 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 4:57 pm Subject: Re: Whats the problem with "formal" meditation? truth_aerator > "kenhowardau" wrote: #103278 > Hello KenH, all, Lobha is fully eliminated only at arhatship. Thus it is something that can appear now, and again to those below Arhatship. If you can't get rid of it, then at least you may try to turn lemon into a lemonade. Attachment to the Dhamma is inevitable, and it may be important in the beginning to be attached to the Dhamma and do kusala. Only when the tendencies to kusala have developed more, only then one can give it up. You don't give up the boat before crossing the sea! You'll drown! In the same way one may "drown" in kilesas if one lets go of wholesome attachment to the Dhamma. As to practice. I agree 100% that practice can be done incorrecttly. But it can be done correctly as well, with knowledge and clear understanding. In fact I have never said that one shouldn't know anything, as I am aware right now, I fully support development of wisdom as well. It is indispensible for proper practice, which Buddha has taught quite a bit and which was also talked about in 40 Kamatthanas in VsM. Why did Buddha teach so many "formal" methods if they didn't lead or help to lead someone to the goal? Of course it is possible to take a screwdriver and use it as a weapon. But it is not the screw driver's, or the store's fault! It is fault of dosa mula citta. Formal practice could be done in akusala way, but it can be done in a kusala way as well. So the practice has to be accompanied by panna, and one does needs to be able to separate kusala from akusala. Yes, it is possible to mistake sukha lobha-mula-citta for mahakusala cittas and so on. This is where wisdom and honest analysis is important. At least some teachers of meditation do drill these things in one way or another. With metta, Alex #103279 From: Dinesh Kularathne Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 7:19 pm Subject: Very happy to join the group dinesh.kular... Hello All, My name is Dinesh. I Just joined dhammasdudygroup and very happy to join the group. Currently I live in Melbourne and have been studying Abhidhamma for awhile; and, thanks to all these books and other materials I have succeeded in familiarizing myself with the subject to some extent. However there remain so many unanswered questions and I find it difficult to comprehend certain things without a proper guidance of an experienced teacher. I hope all these kindly and scholarly members of this group will help me to see the light. I look forward to the discussions in this forum. Warm Regards Dinesh #103280 From: "jai_thivarath" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 6:13 pm Subject: Ordering MP3 in Thai jai_thivarath Hello! I tried contacting the number provided on dhammahome's website and apparently the number's are not working. Does anyone know how to get in contact with them regarding ordering MP3 discs? Thank you so much. Best, Jai #103281 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 2:56 pm Subject: To my Son! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Can the Dhamma Teaching be given in short? Yes! The Blessed Buddha once instructed his son Rahula in this way: Having left behind desire for the five streams of simple sensual pleasure, captivating forms, satisfying the mind, having gone forth from the house in faith, put an end to suffering! Cultivate Noble friends, an isolated lodging, which is, solitary, secluded, silent, with little traffic. Be moderate in eating! Do not crave neither for a fine robe, nor food, nor requisites, nor lodging! Do not return to the worldly life again... Be fully controlled regarding the monastic discipline and the five sense abilities. Be completely & constantly aware of the body as a frame of bones, skin, and flesh. By disgusted with all in this world. Avoid beautiful objects, which provokes lust. Make mind one-pointed, concentrated, absorbed, well focused on non-attractiveness. Develop the signless mind. Cast out all latent tendency to the conceit: I am! Then by the full understanding of self-deception you will wander and dwell stilled, in perfect peace... Sn 337-342 <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #103282 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 8:31 am Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? ksheri3 Good Morning Bill, Howard, Herman, and PT, Hey Billy, Howard and Herman gave ya some good advice, I particularly would want to go and read the Suttas that Herman gave since I never read them, yet, but Howard particularly shines through with his definitions, I'll have to revisit that post and try to seperate the computer characters that appear on the screen that do not make sense to the definition, It's very good, howard. Maybe I can add something here since it took me several years to decipher the meaning of Sunyata (BTW, Howard, thanx for telling me that Sunyata is Pali and Shunyata is Sanskrit, I never figured that one out but got tired of pondering the implications) This concept Sunyata is a very good way for me to explain something we both know as existant while I have the ability to now enter into the definition the complexity of meanings that I draw upon through an experience I am still trying to figure out myself: my Near Death Experience in 1978. Look at a characteristic of mine that I cannot explain how I got it nor where it came from. With respect to Sunyata.I made my determinations of definitions through the concept of THE TWO TRUTHS: Relative Truth and Ultimate Truth. For some unknown reason I can't figure out why I cognize things in this way other than the fact that I've experienced two seperate worlds of existance: this world which is Relative and filled with this rubbish called Rupa or things or even "tangibility", although that word losses it's application if we all had the same consciousness I speak of in the ULTIMATE sense of the Ultimate Truth. The plane of conceiving the ULTIMATE TRUTH: there is no tangible thing, it is all MIND-ONLY or thought generated. CErtainly there may be a deeper level of reality that I have yet to achieve in my practices however this is the best I can do for the time being. This 'plane' of consciousness I speak of is very similar to the yogic level of consciousness that I've been trying to read about called YOGA NIDRA. It's like being conscious that you are dreaming and having control over you acts and actions in the "dream state" so that you can purify the samskaras, for one thing. Here I get into "permenence" through the act or action of MIND, of THOUGHT. The thoughts, the memories, are permenent within the consciousness of THOUGHT, yet they are, for the most part, SAMSKARAS, impure thoughts which lead to suffering. while Sunyata may mean EMPTINESS, this word is soooooooo broad and deep that the average practitioner doesn't cognize it's complexity. I went through the path of applying the term Sunyata through it's applicability in the state of consciousness of Yoga Nidra, for lack of a better term. This, eventually led me to the realization of it's, the word sunyata's, implication of EMPTY thus EMPTI-NESS. That which the word Sunyata is refering to is completely VOID of any substantiability. It will not last and therefore should not be "clung" to as having any qualities of a lasting nature. now when these scholars here use/apply the term Sunyata to Annata or NO-SELF, then I simply start losing my way since this concept of a "self" is enormous and I'm still trying to grasp the complexity of abilities I've found, that I have, after my accident (resultant phenomena), like "stepping into another person's shoes" while in the state of consciousness previously refered to as Yoga Nidra. How can I do that, it's not my body, how can I step into another person's 'body' to 'see' their thoughts when it isn't my body to begin with? That's complex, no? But it happens whether we like it or not, whether I like it or not. Luckily, I have cognized that I do this, very early in the late 70s or early 80s, and took it upon myself to study HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN, WHY DOES THIS HAPPEN, etc, not the focus of "why me" since there is no ME to have it happen to in the first place-- I'm back at the problem of a "self" and Annata, aren't I. To me, this term Sunyata, doesn't really apply to the term Annata or NO Self although I bet there are scholars out there with far more experience at this study and these practices then myself, so I'll let them change the world BECAUSE as I've always said "I'd like to change the world, but I don't know what to do. So I leave it up to you" That's Alvin Lee and Ten Years After, sorry for dating myself. Somewhere in my mess of papers at home in the basement room I am allowed to exist in, I have the exact sutta that finally brought the realization of Sunyata to me and I'll get that for ya. I hope I gave ya a little help in your discovery process of Buddhism. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "billybobby717" wrote: > > > > Hello D.S.G.! > > I have heard that Sun Ya Ta is the word for the concept that everything has a universal essence that is the same? > > > #103283 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 9:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ksheri3 Good Morning Icaro, I just began my research on this guy named Gampopa and am very pleased how the questions and inconsistancies that I've found are being answered though Gampopa. Now you'll have to allow me some latitude to speak of "faith" here since it is my personal belief and faith in those people that are fascinated by my life, my existance, my practices, my abilities, etc, and who I have trusted would show me the best answers for the questions I continually come up with. I was led to a Kagyu forum when I began taking depth in my study of esoteric Buddhist practices. This group, I came to conclude was nothing more than stuffed shirts that only wanted to brewd over their acedemic positions and existance in a two dimensional reality (if it's not on paper then it is not real and if it is not issued by a publisher then it is blasphemous, that type of thought in the tenured professor and their slavery to books), they brought nothing to the table in the form of ACTUAL REALITY, they were/are held prisoner by the books and the two dimensional reality that they worship in the sense that "it is written this way and you must perform in this way, TO THE LETTER, OR ELSE YOU ARE WORTHLESS". yet, in one of the members of that forum, I found a glowing definition of the MADHYAMIKA and this tempered my style to NOT GO OFF on these stuffed shirts, for the most part, however, that group is beyond hope if a world of three or four dimensions exists. <...> Gampopa is fertile ground and I've even looked into Malirepa, again, eventhough I have stuff on him at home. Nevertheless, from what little I've scratched the surface of this research I have found that the esoteric field of study and practice is filled to the rim with practitioners who are NOT PART OF THE STATUS QUO. You once spoke of the behaviors of Niropa as setting him apart from the status quo and putting his practices into question, but that very same characteristic is the same whether it is the Eastern practitioners or the Western practitioners. Although this vindicates the Vajrayana path of a speedy enlightenment, I have always believed that there are ways, practices, which can speed up the process of enlightenment with no need for waiting thousands upon thousands of lifetimes to achieve enlightenment, which is the 1st principle of Theravadan buddhism. And sure, if it is a quick process THEN THERE WILL BE RISKS involved. VEry high risks! It's not easy either. But it is possible. This is great rationale for excluding the individual that takes this path of great risk for great reward. For myself, after like 1985, I gave up on any type of reward, to me it became PERSONAL where these stuffed shirts of the Republican party/nazi party and their existance of SUBURBIA became an actual conflict that had to be resolved. Thank you. I look forward to delving deeper in Gampopa and Niropa even Milarepa, et al. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Icaro" wrote: > > Hi collete! > > I fell really happy when I can share some basic notions! <...> #103284 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 9:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Whats the problem with "formal" meditation? ksheri3 Hi Ken and Alex, Hold it, are you suggesting that somehow, this mentally sick group of people called THE STATUS QUO actually believes that they can practice meditation while at their 9-5 employment, job? If so, then there you have it. It's just another sign of these damned robots exhibiting their mental illness as a positive and something to be admired. I don't nor can't see how any person could possibly perform MEDITATION while at the office wearring their uniform of a shirt that they stuffed with the chemicals that they call a body, or vessel or yoni. <...> It boggles the mind to try to picture a turkey that has been trussed up and ready for baking in it's uniform, how this turkey could possibly consider MEDITATING while at the office doing the usual 'grind'. That, my friends, is a sure sign of mental illness and delusions of granduer. No wonder PARANOIA is so highly valued to obtain in the high school years of developing a robot, I mean manufacturing a robot. BTW, Alex, where'd you come up with this schtick "In the begining", I laughed, I'm still waiting to start seeing that CREATIONIST line of defication come out the IN DOOR. At least it's not an exit fee, no? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > The issue with formal meditation is that could it be akusala at at work. This is to dispel others claim that AS is against meditation. She just wants people to know the the importance to see the danger of the incorrect way of doing samatha: <...> #103285 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 12:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Arhats, and their state of mind when hurt ksheri3 zoiks, what a mine field! Hi Nina, Thanx for that description. > ------ > N: They feel bodily pain but not mental unhappy feeling. > ------- colette: since I am not what we here are terming as an arahat, I will venture in here to say that through the benefits of mind training this is very true. Of course, for instance, when it's cold and when the wind here in the windy city, gets goin' the 6 titanium plates that hold my face together and are one eye socket become very cold and make their presence very well known, however, as you point out, there is no real pain, it is a nousense, bothersome, reminder of my physical condition. > ------- > N: Because of past kamma performed before he became an arahat he can > even feel strong pain. But this does not disturb him in the least. > ------ colette: again, physical pain can be transcended therefore not presenting a problem. At times of rememberence of the physical discomfort THAT IS THE TIME OF REFLECTION and the chance to delve deep into the Samskaras which generated the Karma in the first place. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 9-dec-2009, om 20:39 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > From one side they have been seriously (physically hurt) which > > includes dukkha-vedana. On the other side they experience only > > sobhana vipaka/kiriya citta which either feel joy or equanimity. > ------ > N: They feel bodily pain but not mental unhappy feeling. > ------- > > > > A: Dukkha-vedana (even physical?) is akusala-vipaka, right? So what > > happens in case of an Arhat? Does s/he still have a little bit of > > akusala vipaka left? > ------- > N: Because of past kamma performed before he became an arahat he can > even feel strong pain. But this does not disturb him in the least. > ------ #103286 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 4:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sun Ya Ta ? upasaka_howard Hi, Colette (and Billy, Herman, and pt) - In a message dated 12/10/2009 12:00:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ksheri3@... writes: Good Morning Bill, Howard, Herman, and PT, Hey Billy, Howard and Herman gave ya some good advice, I particularly would want to go and read the Suttas that Herman gave since I never read them, yet, but Howard particularly shines through with his definitions, I'll have to revisit that post and try to seperate the computer characters that appear on the screen that do not make sense to the definition, It's very good, howard. ================================== Thanks, Colette! :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103287 From: "dhammasaro" Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 9:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sun Ya Ta ? dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hey Billy, > > Good to see you're still around. > > 2009/12/9 billybobby717 > > > > > > > Hello D.S.G.! > > > > I have heard that Sun Ya Ta is the word for the concept that everything > > has a universal essence that is the same? > > Is that true? Is this correct > > Buddha Dhamma according to the Tipataka? > > Is it the universal substance itself that is called Sun Ya Ta? > > What does the word mean? > > > > Suññata does not belong to any sectarian school of thought. > > You will find it comprehensively described in > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html > > and > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.122.than.html > > Enjoy > > Herman > > > > .......................................................... Good friends, May I add the following short sutta? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.085.than.html Do you all agree it is applicable in this discussion? metta (maitri), Chuck #103288 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sun Ya Ta ? kenhowardau Hi Chuck, --- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.085.than.html > > Do you all agree it is applicable in this discussion? > ---- Yes, spot on! Here, "empty" means empty of self. It does not mean empty of "own being" as some Mahayana texts try to tell us. The eye, for example, is empty of self, not of eye. BTW, one big problem with the translation you have linked us to is the use of the word "ideas" in this context (an idiosyncrasy of Thanissaro B). Ideas are concepts and, therefore, do not have inherent characteristics. They do not have the anatta characteristic. They are not "empty." Ken H #103289 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Very happy to join the group sarahprocter... Hi Dinesh, Welcome to DSG! --- On Thu, 10/12/09, Dinesh Kularathne wrote: >My name is Dinesh. I Just joined dhammasdudygroup and very happy to join the group. Currently I live in Melbourne and have been studying Abhidhamma for awhile; and, thanks to all these books and other materials I have succeeded in familiarizing myself with the subject to some extent. ... S: [We used to have a member called Dinesh who was living in India. I assume you are a different Dinesh?] I'm very glad to hear about your keen interest in Abhidhamma and look forward to further discussions with you. Please share anything you find helpful, anything others might also find helpful. ... >However there remain so many unanswered questions and I find it difficult to comprehend certain things without a proper guidance of an experienced teacher. I hope all these kindly and scholarly members of this group will help me to see the light. I look forward to the discussionsin this forum. ... S: thank you for your helpful introduction. Please share any of your questions - maybe one or two at a time and we'll look forward to discussing them. Very best wishes Metta Sarah ======= #103290 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:40 am Subject: Messages display modes ptaus1 Hi all, Here is a description of how you can change the way the messages are displayed on the dsg yahoo list and thus make it easier and faster to read through, as well as follow through a thread much faster. I've been searching how to do this for a few months, and it turned out it was right there in front of my eyes all the time. So, if you are as blind as me and don't know about this, here's how to do it: - usually messages are displayed in a numerical list with short summaries for each message - this is the "simplified" display mode. - if you look in the left hand corner, just above the top message displayed in the list, there should be a few options written in very small letters saying: "Messages: Simplify / Expand (Group by topic)". So these are the three modes of display. Simplified mode you already know. If you click "Expand", then all the messages on the list (30 of them) will be loaded and displayed in one window that you can scroll through. So this is much faster and easier to read through than having to click on each message and load individually one after the other in Simplified mode. If you click on "Group by topic", then all the message summaries are organised in threads, which might be useful if you are after a specific thread (though it's a bit hard to track the posts this way). - and finally the display feature I've been looking for - let's say you are following a specific thread that has a lot of posts in it and somebody just replied with a new message. So when you click on that latest post in the messages list to read it, you are taken to a specific window with the text of that message, while all the previous messages in that thread are displayed below it as individual links to each of those messages. Now, to click through all of them individually might take a long time. BUT, a much quicker way is to look in the left corner just below the end of the message text (so below the blue Reply button), which is also just above the list of previous messages - there should be (again in very small letters) an option "Expand messages". If you click this option, then all the past messages in the thread will be loaded and displayed in the same window and you can simply scroll through all of them. This is much faster than having to click and load each post individually. I find this saves me a lot of time, and just can't believe I haven't noticed those little letters earlier. Hope this helps. Best wishes pt #103291 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:57 am Subject: Re: Very happy to join the group ptaus1 Hi Dinesh, Welcome to the list from me too. Here are a couple of technical pointers to help you find your way around here. In the menu on the left, there's the "Files" option, where you'll find a lot of interesting stuff, and most importantly, the Useful Posts file, which is a collection of good posts from previous discussions here on various topics. Direct link to Useful Posts is: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/sNQgSxKWG373QUTw7CASsgGXwh2A13EAf7yfgwCL-Ie0H1ZCNfx\ 8DV245onEseXKGrQy-Dr5PeeI1mpT26qW/Useful_Posts_October_2009.htm In the same menu, there's also "Links" option where you can find links to various online books, as well as websites. Of course, you have to be singed in for these two menu options to be active. If you have any questions about technical issues, please ask. Also, there's a website that has an archive of all the past messages from here, as well as many audio mp3 talks available for download. The address is: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Best wishes pt > Hello All, > My name is Dinesh. I Just joined dhammasdudygroup and very > happy to join the group. #103292 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arhats, and their state of mind when hurt ashkenn2k Dear Alex >If lets say an Arahant is hurt by someone (ex: When Ven. MahaMoggallana or Angulimala was brutally beaten by bandits) or if an Arhat experiences painful bodily health problems. What sorts of citta have occurred during those painful moments? KO: dukkhasahagatam kaya vinnanam which is aksuala vipaka > >From one side they have been seriously (physically hurt) which includes dukkha-vedana. On the other side they experience only sobhana vipaka/kiriya citta which either feel joy or equanimity. > >Dukkha-vedana (even physical?) is akusala-vipaka, right? So what happens in case of an Arhat? Does s/he still have a little bit of akusala vipaka left? KO: We have to differentiate between vipaka and javana cittas. Even Buddha also experiences bodily pain during his illness or when a thorn pierce into his toes. The javana cittas that arise later are all kiriya. They do not feel mental pain at all as all taints have been eradicated. IMHO, those who have attained non-returner stage would also not feel mental pain as they have get rid of the dosa roots. Cheers Ken O #103293 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:07 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 3 ashkenn2k Dear all  One recognizes the conventional things, which are in reality different elements of hardness. When one sees, for example, a radio or television one takes it for granted that they are composed of iron, plastic, and other materials. However, in reality the component parts are only different rúpa elements. One may be forgetful of the characteristics of nÃ¥ma dhammas and rúpa dhammas that appear one at a time and then fall away. One remembers the conventional terms of things after seeing what appears through the eyes. There are all the time more and more conventional terms needed because every day there are new inventions. When we know the shape and form of different things which appear as a mass or a whole, we know concepts, thus, conventional truth, not absolute truth.  We know the concept of a whole or a mass (gaùa paññatti) because of the experience of visible object. Apart from this we know a concept of sound (sadda paññatti), we know the meaning of sounds. All this occurs in daily life. We should know precisely what is absolute truth and what is conventional truth. Conventional truth is not real in the absolute sense. We recognize the shape and form of things and they appear as a cup, a dish, a spoon, a radio, a car, or television. Human beings can utter sounds that form up words; they use conventional terms with which they name the things that appear. Thus we can understand which thing is referred to. Animals cannot, to the same extent as human beings, refer to things by means of language. Sound is a reality; different sounds constitute words or names. There could not be words or names without sounds. When someone has eyesight he can see different things, but he needs also speech sounds which form up words and names in order to refer to what he sees. When someone knows the meaning of the sounds that form up words, he can speak, he can name things and refer to different subjects. We all cling to names which are used in conventional language. We should also know absolute realities. We should know the characteristic of sound, a kind of reality that can be heard. The reality of sound is named differently in different languages. In English the word “soundâ€? is used to denote this reality. In PÃ¥li it is named “sadda-rúpaâ€?. No matter how one names it, it is a reality which has its own characteristic: it is a rúpa (physical phenomena) which appears through ears, it is not nÃ¥ma (mentality), a reality which experiences.  to be continued  Cheers Ken O #103294 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Messages display modes sarahprocter... Hi pt & all, Very helpful and clear. Thx for sharing. We'll have to start a section under 'Technical' in U.P! To others - pt is kindly giving us some assistance behind the scenes with technical issues which arise from time to time also. If anyone has any difficulties with posting, reading mail, trimming, finding Useful Posts etc, I suggest you contact pt or Ken H or Jon(or all!) - pls be patient whilst waiting for a reply, everyone's busy. Connie can also help, but she has a full-time job already backing up the busy list and then backing up that back-up. (Connie, you may want to put the other back-up link in bookmarks - up to you.) If anyone would like any assistance putting their pic in the album, then James is the expert. (Icaro also has expertise in this area - thx for the latest one Icaro and good to see you back:-)). Anyway, a warm thanks from Jon and I to all of you who help the list run so very smoothly, both on-list and behind the scenes. Metta Sarah --- On Thu, 10/12/09, ptaus1 wrote: >Here is a description of how you can change the way the messages are displayed on the dsg yahoo list and thus make it easier and faster to read through, as well as follow through a thread much faster.<..> #103295 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:13 am Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 1 ashkenn2k Dear all  Questioner: Among the forty kinds of meditation subjects of samatha I prefer “Mindfulness of Breathingâ€?. However, I understand that, by means of this subject, I cannot eradicate defilements, that I cannot realize the noble Truths and reach nibbÃ¥na.Sujin: Through samatha defilements cannot be eradicated, nor can the noble Truths be realized and nibbÃ¥na be attained. Q. : I think that people’s aim is to eradicate defilements and attain nibbÃ¥na. However, they do not understand what in daily life the cause of clinging is. They do not know when there is lobha. If someone just wishes to eradicate defilements without knowing them as they are, there is clinging to a result. Is it then possible for them to develop satipaììhÃ¥na? S. : No, it is impossible. Q. : Can we develop both samatha and vipassanÃ¥? S. : People will know for themselves whether they are developing samatha or vipassanÃ¥. However, if there is no right understanding of these different ways of development, neither samatha nor vipassanÃ¥ can be developed. Q. : Could you please give some directions for the development of vipassanÃ¥? S. : Nobody can hasten the development of satipaììhÃ¥na. The goal of satipaììhÃ¥na is the eradication of defilements. However, a person who does not know his defilements is not motivated to follow the way leading to their eradication. If someone would line up children who are ignorant of their defilements and tell them to eradicate defilements by the development satipaììhÃ¥na, they would not want to eradicate defilements. How could they then develop satipaììhÃ¥na? All people, children and adults alike, have a great deal of defilements. If one would ask them whether they would wish to get rid of them, most of them would answer that they do not wish to. Therefore, one should not try to force others to develop satipaììhÃ¥na. Some people, when they hear about defilements, may not like to have them, but do they really know their defilements? Attachment, lobha, is a defilement. Do people want to have lobha? They may not like the idea of having lobha, but actually, people like lobha each and every moment. This shows that one does not understand the characteristic of the defilement of lobha. We can find out whether we really understand lobha as a defilement or not. Is the food delicious? Are our cloths and the things with which we beautify ourselves nice? Is the music pleasing, the odour fragrant, the chair soft and confortable? Is what we touch agreeable? Although some people do not like the idea of having lobha and think that they should not have it, they can find out that citta likes lobha all the time. The development of satipaììhÃ¥na is the development of sati and paññå. It is not trying to have concentration, samÃ¥dhi. Cheers Ken O #103296 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ordering MP3 in Thai sarahprocter... Hi Jai, Sawasdee Kha! Welcome to DSG! Where do you live, if I may ask? --- On Thu, 10/12/09, jai_thivarath wrote: >I tried contacting the number provided on dhammahome's website and apparently the number's are not working. Does anyone know how to get in contact with them regarding ordering MP3 discs? Thank you so much. .... S: I suggest you try calling the Foundation in Bangkok on: 02 468 0239. They also have sets of Thai mp3s abailable. They should be able to either arrange to send these or put you in touch with someone else from dhammahome. As you obviously speak good English, you may also like to download any of the sets of edited English mp3s on www.dhammastudygroup.org (NOT the DSG homepage). Once there, click for the audio section. If you feel like sharing anything hear that you listen to which you find especially helpful/interesting, I'd be glad to read about it. Metta Sarah ======== #103297 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:23 am Subject: The Natural Way of Development - No 1 truth_aerator Dear KenO, KenH, Nina, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear all >  > Questioner: Among the forty kinds of meditation subjects of samatha As I understand it, not all of 40 kamatthana subjects are samatha only. Repulsiveness of food, defining 4 elements and some other subjects like anapanasati are or include vipassana as well. In the suttas the Buddha did say that anapanasati fulfills 4 satipatthana and 7 factors of awakening (MN118), that it can be done within satipatthana (MN10), that anapanasati can lead to Arhatship (SN 54.13 and 54.x). Buddha highly praised anapanasati So even if one says that "Netti says that people of blunt faculties should do vipassana" , that can include anapanasati. With metta, Alex #103298 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:59 am Subject: Fundamental difference - Effort truth_aerator Dear KenO, Nina, Sarah, Jon, KenH, all The issue of "Effort" (such as chanda, viriya, adhimokkho): Note: Those pakinnaka cetasika are varible. They can happen in wholesome states of mind as well. There is nothing inherently unwholesome in (chanda, viriya, adhimokkho). Some claim that any sort of effort, resolution or intention to do this or that, to focus here or there, is deluded from the start. Here is a fundamental difference between DSG approach and other approaches. In the suttas Buddha very often talked quite forcefully about effort. His similes and the pali grammar (active present verbs, etc) DOES suggest very forceful practice at times. For example: The warrior simile "Then there is the warrior who can handle the cloud of dust, the top of the enemy's banner, the tumult, & the hand-to-hand combat. On winning the battle, victorious in battle, he comes out at the very head of the battle. Some warriors are like this. This is the fifth type of warrior who can be found existing in the world." "This [awakening], for him, is victory in the battle. - AN 5.75 Simile for Effort for Awakening here is "like effort of a warrior in hand-to-hand combat and all the battles". One is to develop effort like one's head was on fire to eliminate unwholesome qualities (AN 6.20). One should exert even to the point of tears (AN 4.5). One should have the resolution "Let my flesh and blood dries up, but I will not move until awakening" . One should "he does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence." MN2 If more gentle methods do not work, then one should SUBDUE unwholesome qualities by ramming the tongue against the roof of the mouth and crush mind with mind. MN20. "If evil, unskillful thoughts â€" imbued with desire, aversion or delusion â€" still arise in the monk ... then â€" with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth â€" he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness." - mn20 "Beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness" - doesn't imply passive "just naturally happens" "A person without ardor, without concern, is incapable of self-awakening, incapable of Unbinding, incapable of attaining the unexcelled security from bondage. A person ardent & concerned is capable of self-awakening, capable of Unbinding, capable of attaining the unexcelled security from bondage." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.028-049.than.html#iti-034 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.075.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html The deliberate and wise practice (which was often mentioned) depends on the appropriate effort. With metta, Alex #103299 From: "connie" Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:30 am Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 38-39) nichiconn dear pt and all, the commentary continues: [Stanza 11] 38. Herein, weeping (ru.n.na"m) is the act-of-weeping (rodana), weptness (roditatta), tear-shedding; by that he indicates bodily distress. Sorrow (soka) is the act-of-sorrowing (socanaa), sorrowfullness (socitatta); by that he indicates mental distress. Mourning (paridevanaa) is the outcrying of one who is affected by loss of relatives, his extolling of [their] special qualities in the way beginning 'My only child, where are you?' (M ii 106) and 'My love! My darling!"; by that he indicates verbal distress. 39. So the Blessed One said Na hi ru.n.na"m vaa soko vaa yaa c'a~n~naa paridevanaa Na ta"m petaana"m atthaaya, eva"m ti.t.thanti ~naatayo. 'No weeping, nor yet sorrowing, 'Nor any kind of mourning, helps 'Departed Ones, whose kin remain '[Unhelpful to them acting] thus. And when he had said, showing the unhelpfulness of weeping, etc., that as to weeping or sorrowing or any kind of mourning, not even all that helps departed ones, but their kin [who act] thus remain only in mere self-torture, he then uttered the stanza, namely , 'And such an offering as this', showing [instead] the value of an almsgiving such as that given by the Magadhan king. peace, connie #103300 From: "Christine" Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:56 am Subject: Re: Messages display modes christine_fo... Thanks pt! Using this method, DSG looks just like many of the newer non-yahoo boards ~ I have to admit exasperation at the seemingly disconnected or interrupted topics and the awkwardness I experienced previously in reading this list. Thanks again for bringing some ease and coherence into the experience for those of us less computer literate. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > BUT, a much quicker way is to look in the left corner just below the end of the message text (so below the blue Reply button), which is also just above the list of previous messages - there should be (again in very small letters) an option "Expand messages". If you click this option, then all the past messages in the thread will be loaded and displayed in the same window and you can simply scroll through all of them. This is much faster than having to click and load each post individually. I find this saves me a lot of time, and just can't believe I haven't noticed those little letters earlier. Hope this helps. > > Best wishes > pt > #103301 From: "colette" Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:31 am Subject: Sunyata? ksheri3 Hi Group, Can anyone picture Sunyata? Does Sunyata have an appearance? Is Sunyata nothing more than a defination? Defining something, defining anything, is rather NON-BUDDHIST, since Buddhism is founded upon NOTHINGNESS. <...> And so this is christmas. And what have you done? An old year is over. And a new one, just begun. Didn't JOhn Lennon say that? toodles, colette #103302 From: "colette" Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:38 am Subject: Re: Without the Walls (Cy 38-39), OBSCURATIONS 101, TYRANNY, ... ksheri3 Hi connie, Surely you had to know that I wouldn't let this slip by me. Ahhhhhhhhhh, yes, "mourning". When does mourning start and when does it end? Is there a begining and an end to the act of mourning? Is "lament" the same as "mourne". <...> Why, connie, does a person mourne? What is there to mourne over? <...> So, connie, what is "mourning"? What is there to mourn over or mourn about since this act of 'mourning' implies a past dharma, a past to be clung to and admired? How about the admiration of an assembly line which manufactures robots? <...> "...Mourning (paridevanaa)..." What is: TO MOURN? WHY MOURN? MY OWN FAMILY AND MY OWN SOCIETY MURDERED ME, so what are you trying to RE-PROGRAMME me with now, at this late date, after years of tried and true experimentation, after years of IF this THEN that experimenatation, what are you trying to tell me by using this slave word called "mourn"? <...> come now: TO MOURN? <...> I have never, ever, been invited to a wedding, however, I have always been invited to funerals. BAck in 1979, I pondered this fact but let it go because my actual peers had not reached the age of marriage. But, now that it's more than twenty years later, I still ponder the same question? I have never been invited to a wedding but I have always been invited to funeral? Why is that? Is it my fault? Is it something that I have done? <...> Help me out here. You surely can give at least a simple thought or is a thought too much to give to a poor beggar like myself? ARe you surely too great and too majestic to bother with such a low life like myself? Is giving a rather obscene word since anything you could give to a worthless wretch like myself will be MISS USED and that would mock your superiority and benevolence, wouldn't it? IT'S A GO. LET'S DO IT., WE SHALL TRY TO GIVE THEM AS MUCH CHEMICALS AS THEY CAN POSSIBLY ABSORB SINCE THEY ARE ADDICTS. LETS FILL EM UP! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear pt and all, > > the commentary continues: > > [Stanza 11] > > 38. Herein, weeping (ru.n.na"m) is the act-of-weeping (rodana), weptness (roditatta), tear-shedding; by that he indicates bodily distress. Sorrow (soka) is the act-of-sorrowing (socanaa), sorrowfullness (socitatta); by that he indicates mental distress. Mourning (paridevanaa) is the outcrying of one who is affected by loss of relatives, his extolling of [their] special qualities in the way beginning 'My only child, where are you?' (M ii 106) and 'My love! My darling!"; by that he indicates verbal distress. <...> #103303 From: "Dinesh" Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:54 pm Subject: Re: Very happy to join the group dinesh.kular... Dear Pt, Thank you for sparing a few minutes to welcome me into this wonderful group. I've already gone through most of those archived posts and those interesting mp3 discussions on `dhammastudygroup.org' (this is one of the BEST sites I've come across on the internet). Actually it was those contents that lead me here into this discussion-group. And as you said following the links on the menu I could find a lot of interesting stuff here. What a treasure! Many thanks. If there should arise any technical issues I'll make sure I bother you :-). Thanks again for everything. With Metta, Dinesh > #103304 From: "Dinesh" Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:51 pm Subject: Re: Very happy to join the group dinesh.kular... Hello Sarah! Thank you so much for your warm welcome and the prompt reply. [Yes, Sarah, I'm a different Dinesh :-); I hail from Colombo (Sri Lanka)]. I'll be more than happy to share whatever the useful stuff I find with my fellow group members. And I very much appreciate your willingness to help me. Hope start forwarding my questions and comments soon. Thanks again for everything. May you attain Nibbana in this very life! With Metta, Dinesh --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Dinesh, > > Welcome to DSG! > > #103305 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:19 pm Subject: Vipassana while watching TV vs Sila #7 truth_aerator Dear RobertK2, Nina, and all, I was reading Robert's interview. "Q: Do you agree that it is important if one is serious about developing vipassana that we must avoid certain sense objects such as violent movies? RobertK2, Actually when vipassana is been developed it doesn't matter so much what object contacts the senses. It can all be insighted. If we watch a violent movie then it is conditioned already. While we watch there are namas (mental states) and rupas (physical states) arising and passing away continually. Looking at TV is the situation, the concept, but the realities are merely colour and seeing, sound and hearing, which depending on understanding or lack of it condition various perceptions and feelings which (along with colour, seeing, sound hearing) can be directly understood. http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html Question: What about sutta passages forbidding watching shows and entertainments as part of training in 8 or 10 precepts? 7. Nacca-gita-vadita-visukkadassana mala-gandha-vilepana-dharana-mandana-vibhusanathana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from dancing, singing, music, going to see entertainments, wearing garlands, using perfumes, and beautifying the body with cosmetics. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/atthasila.html How do you reconcile 7th precept and watching movies? With metta, Alex #103306 From: Charles Xxxxxx Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:43 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Vipassana while watching TV vs Sila #7 dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al May I interject on this portion of your message? You wrote in part (Excerpt): Question: What about sutta passages forbidding watching shows and entertainments as part of training in 8 or 10 precepts? 7. Nacca-gita-vadita-visukkadassana mala-gandha-vilepana-dharana-mandana-vibhusanathana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from dancing, singing, music, going to see entertainments, wearing garlands, using perfumes, and beautifying the body with cosmetics. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/atthasila.html How do you reconcile 7th precept and watching movies? ................................................................................\ ...... End excerpt 1. On your question: Question: What about sutta passages forbidding watching shows and entertainments as part of training in 8 or 10 precepts? C: I do not recall the historic Buddha teaching in the Tipitaka any "forbidding" in the Precepts. Would you kindly list the sutta(s) which "forbid" in the voluntary observing of the five main precepts? Or, the other additional precepts; such, as the seventh of which you write. As I understand, observing the precepts are voluntary and the depth we observe a precept is also voluntary. 2. On your question: Question: How do you reconcile 7th precept and watching movies? C: As I was taught, we voluntarily observe the precepts to the depth we wish. If I wish to watch a violent movie about the Tibetan monks or Myanmar (Burmese) monks being slaughtered, it is up to me, to decide. I may decide it is beneficial to watch. Good friend Alex, et al Just my dos centavos... metta (maitri), Chuck Post Script: If I have not followed DSG protocol; please kindly delete. To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com #103307 From: "jai_thivarath" Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ordering MP3 in Thai jai_thivarath Kop jai! I already tried contacting that number. I reside in Fresno, CA-USA. Do you happen to know if there are any conferences held near Fresno or so. I would like to purchase the entire dhamma discussions in Thai. The one in English is hard to understand. I prefer the dhamma discussions and lectures in Thai. I hope to hear back from you. When does our citta initially start? Is it possible that a new born child is born with pure citta? Meaning they have never existed before. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Jai, > > Sawasdee Kha! Welcome to DSG! Where do you live, if I may ask? > #103308 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Physical Phenomena (76) sarahprocter... Dear Han, I'd also like to thank you (belatedly, as usual!) for kindly presenting the series and doing so beautifully. Some people may wonder why it's necessary or interesting to study rupas at all. I believe the conclusion makes it clear that without an understanding of namas and rupas, there can never be any insight, never any following of the Path: --- On Sun, 29/11/09, han tun wrote: >The study of the different kinds of ruupa will help us to understand more clearly the various conditions for the arising of bodily phenomena and mental phenomena. Gradually we shall come to understand that all our experiences in life, all the objects we experience, our bodily movements and our speech are only conditioned naama and ruupa.< >It may seem difficult to be mindful of one reality at a time, but realities such as visible object, hardness or sound are impinging on the senses time and again. When we have understood that they have different characteristics and that they present themselves one at a time, we can learn to be mindful of them. We should remember that at the moment of mindfulness of a reality understanding of that reality can be developed. Right understanding should be the goal. There is no self who understands. Understanding is a cetasika, a type of naama; it understands and it can develop.< .... S: thanks again, Han! I look forward to your next series!! Metta Sarah ======== #103309 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ordering MP3 in Thai sarahprocter... Dear Jai, --- On Fri, 11/12/09, jai_thivarath wrote: Kop jai! I already tried contacting that number. ... S: !! Let me give you more numbers off-list for Khun Chatchai who runs dhammahome. ... >I reside in Fresno, CA-USA. Do you happen to know if there are any conferences held near Fresno or so. I would like to purchase the entire dhamma discussions in Thai. ... S: We do have several Thai-Am friends in Ca inc. Fresno who we met on trips. Khun Chatchai would be able to give you more details. I'll also give you the email add for one of the Ca friends off-list. ... >The one in English is hard to understand. I prefer the dhamma discussions and lectures in Thai. I hope to hear back from you. ... S: Understood....good for those who can listen to both like you, Jon & Nina.... ... >When does our citta initially start? Is it possible that a new born child is born with pure citta? Meaning they have never existed before. ... S: Good questions. The first citta of this life, the patisandhi citta begins at birth, i.e. conception. However, birth is conditioned by ignorance and attachment and these defilements lie latent with each citta. Each citta conditions the next, so without the last citta of the last life (cuti citta), there couldn't be the patisandhi citta of this life. During the very first series of cittas of life, during the javana process, the cittas which arise are with lobha (attachment). Therefore, we can see, there is nothing 'pure' about the new born child's cittas. However, I might also point out, that all cittas can be said to be 'pandara' (pure, clear) - it is the accompanying mental factors, such as lobha, which 'defile'. Has this answered the question? I'd be glad to discuss this topic further with you! Metta Sarah ======= #103310 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta sarahprocter... Dear Alex, I forget if this was clarified or not: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > According to Mn148 only 12 ayatanas can be divided into internal/external. > > > Notice that consciousness, contact, feeling, etc are not stated to be internal or external. ... S: In the classification of the ayatanas, the sense bases are 5 internal ayatanas and all kinds of consciousness are included in the 6th internal ayatana, manayatana (as we've discussed before). The sense objects are 5 external ayatanas and mental factors, subtle rupas and nibbana are included in the 6th external ayatana, dhammayatana. Therefore, "consciousness, contact, feeling, etc" are all specified as internal or external ayatanas. This classification is not to be confused with other uses and meanings of internal/external in the texts. We have to look at each use in context. ... > Consciousness is not a material reality, it has no spatial location. > It is functional interaction between internal & external factors. ... S: Correct, it is not a material reality, a rupa. It is also not a 'functional interaction between internal & external factors'. It is a nama, the dhamma which can experience an object, no matter whether that object is internal or external. Happy to discuss further if it's still unclear. Metta Sarah p.s Ken O also gave a good quote from Dispeller on the ayatanas, as I recall. ====== #103311 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? sarahprocter... Hi pt (& Jon), Back on actors and #101462 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > The problem is not that it draws attention to conventional matters (all kinds of conduct do that;-)). The conduct goes further than that; as the sutta makes clear, the conduct is conduct which incites people having lobha, dosa and moha to even stronger lobha, dosa and moha. > > pt: I hear what you're saying - you've explained this a few times already, so I guess I'm just not able to see your point at this time. I mean, to me it seems everything has the potential to incite stronger lobha, dosa and moha, depending on the "recipient's" anusaya so to speak. .... S: I thought of your discussions when reading about and viewing the incident of the parent-actors and the balloon in the US, when the poor children were told to deceive the authorities. Obviously, this was an extreme case, but perhaps the example in the sutta was as well. Anyway, apologies for belatedly re-opening this can of worms... Metta Sarah ======= Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (46) #103313 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philofillet" wrote: > A very helpful summary. And I'll check the U.Ps, at the risk of finding posts telling me that only people with awareness of present realities (beyond me) can earn merit! ... S: Always that risk....! Seriously, any kind of kusala, including any kind of dana or sila is included in 'merit', but it has to be known and recognised in order to develop... ... > If you look back to mid 2004 you can find a long series of posts from this book with scintilating comments by yours truly in a somewhat different incarnation! ;) ... S: Perhaps we should run a series from Phil's former incarnation ;) you could always add in some sceptical asides.... No need to reply, have a great holiday season with Naomi.....- many, many opportunities for all of us for dana and sila (including metta) in a day. Extracts from "Metta Sutta", Sn 8, Saddhatissa transl: "He who is skilled in welfare, who wishes to attain that calm state [Nibbaana], should act thus: he should be able, upright, perfectly upright, of noble speech, gentle and humble. "Contented, easily supported, with few duties, of light livelihood, with senses calmed, discreet, not impudent, not greedily attached to families. "He should not pursue the slightest thing for which otherwise men might censure him. May all beings be happy and secure, may their hearts be wholesome!" "Let none deceive another, not despise any person whatsoever in any place. Let him not wish any harm to another out of anger or ill-will." "Whether he stands, walks, sits or lies down, as long as he is awake, he should develop this mindfulness. This they say is the noblest living here. "Not falling into wrong views, being virtuous and endowed with insight, by discarding attachment to sense desires, never again is he reborn." Metta Sarah ========== #103314 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Tue, 8/12/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S:Again, I like (i.e. agree with) your many comments in this thread. You're in danger of being 'lumped' with some of us at the rate you're going....:-) ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- H:>Well, it's improbable that you guys would ALWAYS be wrong! ;-)) ... S: Not sure that Suan and others would agree with you there ;-)) ... Anyway, the agreement's enjoyable while it lasts.... Metta Sarah ====== #103315 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Mon, 7/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >> S: I haven't checked, but I thought it was saying that we can't blame past kamma for all our present defilements. Akusala vipaka to receive the blows, but akusala accumulations to kill or lie on account of them.... .... A:> So by saying that we have the choice after: >S: Akusala vipaka to receive the blows, Not to >S: "to kill or lie on account of them...." >means that there IS a degree of possible choice? ... S: It means it depends on tendencies and inclinations (which are of course conditioned too) as to how the cittas respond in reaction to those blows. Clearly, an anagami or arahat will not have any aversion on account of them. Their cittas don't 'decide' or 'choose' not to have aversion - there simply aren't any conditions for aversion to arise. This is a result of the development of the path, of the extremely keen understanding which has eradicated (not 'chosen to eradicate') such defilements. It is simply 'Self-view' that would like there to be a choice and tries to include it in every sutta that's read. ... >That we are not doomed to be killers, rapists, thieves, good people or bad people, on account of past kamma? ... S: Not at all. Past kamma is not the condition for such deeds. Past kamma is the condition of sense-experiencing, such as seeing and hearing and of rupas conditioned by kamma. It is also the condition for rebirth consciousness and subsequent bhavanga cittas. ... >The choice to be good or bad isn't as powerless as a rock falling down (and has no choice to fall or to remain motionless) ... S: Decide now to only ever be good, to only ever have kind thoughts, to be generous, to be wise! And what are the cittas now? Metta Sarah ===== #103316 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Carita - Nettipakkarana sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Mon, 7/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >If person is mostly Tanha-Carita, then one should follow insight preceded by tranqullity to understand Buddha's teaching. ... S: Aren't we all "mostly tanha-carita" (of greedy temperament) all day, every day? Even when first born (i.e first conceived), what are the first carita manifesting? Who can choose what to follow? What about all you've read about conditioned dhammas, Alex? What about all the points everyone's been making to you in this regard? Anatta! Metta Sarah ====== #103317 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? sarahprocter... Dear Robert K (Alex, Mike nz & all), I enjoyed your starbucks episode:-) I can see why you enjoy Junko's patient company!! --- On Sun, 6/12/09, rjkjp1 wrote: >How many cittas in that little episode? In fact how many cittas just in one split second.. Many cittas, for example vipaka citta like seeing,are the result of kamma and many others are during the javana process . And during the javana process the cittas there are usually rooted in lobha, greed of some degree. it seems like someone is making a choice but it is merely greed performing its function assisted by many other factors. Sometimes Buddhist realise that going to have coffee is rooted in greed so they 'choose' not to go. But then there are other types of lobha, such as the one associated with wrongview that makes one perform special practices. One avoids the sense object- but is unaware of the attachment that is performing its function of clininging to some type of ascetism or method. ... S: Well said....a lot of cittas and a lot of lobha in a day..... Metta Sarah ====== #103318 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Planet Earth a result of Kamma (kammavipaka)? sarahprocter... Hi Herman & all, --- On Sun, 6/12/09, Herman wrote: > >H: Gotta love that "jewelled stairway that was in the midst of > > the gold and > > silver stairways from the deva world to the city of > > Sankassa," :-) > ... > S: Well, an acquired taste which you seem to be slowly acquiring in spite > of best intentions to not acquire it:-) > H:> What probably is true is that I no longer react with aversion when I read something that asks the reader to take leave of their senses :-) ... S: A good start, glad to hear it. But, as I was saying to Alex, the reactions are conditioned too....we never know about the next moment. Metta Sarah ======== #103319 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: conditions through temporal abyss sarahprocter... Hi pt (& Alex), --- On Wed, 2/12/09, ptaus1 wrote: >...One hint might be the word that U Narada uses to describe the proximity condition - force. Of course, the trouble is that when I consider such difficult matters, I inevitably end up conceiving some sort of atta in it, regardless of whether I call it force, or conditions or even dhammas. So a care is needed when considering these kinds of issues - going only as far as it helps to further the direct understanding, but not going any further than that into speculation which only leads to problems. .... S: Nicely put... .... >One useful analogy that helped me consider this subject and then move on is that of a capacitor (electronic component) - which is made of two parallel metal plates separated by a dielectric (matter that doesn't conduct current). Now, if one follows speculative logic - no current should pass from one plate to another and the circuit with a capacitor in it should be useless.. But the current does "jump" over, or rather, an electric field is created between the two plates, which then exerts mechanical force (as well as allowing alternating current to happen). So the circuit works in an unexpected way, and there's no reason why dhammas shouldn't be governed by some similar natural law (maybe dhammaniyama) that makes them work in case of proximity condition and "intervening matter" even though it's really hard to understand it conceptually. .... S: That was a good analogy, even for a non-techie like me! Yes, dhamma niyama - it cannot be any other way, but that one citta follows another, regardless of time or a seeiming 'gap' in the circuit... Metta Sarah ====== #103320 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 3. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Chew (and pt), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Is there any translation in Chinese as some of my friends are more comfortable in Chinese .... S: I'm pretty sure that there isn't yet a translation of Abhi in DL by Nina in Chinese as yet. There is a translation of CMA in Chinese however. As I recall, it was printed in Penang, but I'm not sure if it was ever 'legally' approved. Anyway, Chew may know more about Chinese translations. pt, I was impressed that you have the skills to translate into Russian! Metta Sarah ====== #103321 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:30 am Subject: Re: how to know nama jonoabb Hi Alex (102975) > It is right that nama is hard to discern. It is harder to discern than rupa. This is why Buddha has often advised us to start with rupa and after it (rupa) becomes clear, then proceed till nama. > > The famous satipatthana sutta starts with kayagatasati and THEN proceeds to nama (vedana, citta satipatthana). > > In VsM it says that one whose vehicle is serenity should define mentality first. Whose vehicle is bare insight, starts with the body. > =============== The passage you've quoted (below) is from the section of the Vism dealing with the Purification of View (aka the Defining of Mentality-Materiality). The purifications are very advanced levels of insight. A person who is within reach of that level of insight must have already developed satipatthana with both nama and rupa as object to a high degree. So it's not a matter of developing insight of one kind of object to the exclusion of another. Furthermore, the part you've quoted is only one of five ways in which materiality-mentality may be 'defined'. This defining may be based on the Four Primaries (as here), on the Eighteen Elements, on the Twelve Bases, on the Five Aggregates or on the Four Primaries again (brief version). These classifications are meant to be illustrative rather than explicit methods. So there is no general rule to be extracted here to the effect that the development of insight is to start with one kind of object or another. As I've mentioned before, I don't think the terms "one whose vehicle is serenity" and "one whose vehicle is insight" are to be taken as suggesting that a person is to choose to be one or the other and to then "practice" accordingly. As far as I can ascertain, this reference to those terms is the first time they're mentioned in the Vism. Jon > VsM XVIII, 3 > > [DEFINING OF MENTALITY-MATERIALITY] > [(1) DEFINITION BASED ON THE FOUR PRIMARIES] > [(a) Starting with Mentality] > "One who wants to accomplish this, if, firstly, his vehicle is serenity, should emerge from any fine-material or immaterial jhana, except the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception,3 and he should discern, according to characteristic, function, etc., the jhana factors consisting of applied thought, etc., and the states associated with them, [that is, feeling, perception, and so on]. When he has done so, all that should be defined as 'mentality' (nama) in the sense of bending (namana) because of its bending on to the object. > > > [(b) Starting with Materiality] > 5. But one whose vehicle is pure insight, or that same aforesaid one > whose vehicle is serenity, discerns the four elements in brief or in detail in one of the various ways given in the chapter on the definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, §27ff.). Then when the elements have become clear in their correct essential characteristics, firstly, in the case of head hair originated by kamma there become plain ten instances of materiality (rilpdni) with the body decad thus: the four elements, colour, odour, flavour, nutritive essence, and life, and body sensitivity. > #103322 From: han tun Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Physical Phenomena (76) hantun1 Dear Sarah,  Thank you very much for your kind appreciation. My physical condition permitting, I will write some more serials.  Respectfully, Han --- On Fri, 12/11/09, sarah abbott wrote: I'd also like to thank you (belatedly, as usual!) for kindly presenting the series and doing so beautifully. #103323 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:04 am Subject: Fwd: Fw: Pali Text Society announcements dsgmods Dear Friends, F/w from the mods a/c .... --- On Thu, 12/10/09, Win Win yee wrote: > Date: Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 10:56 AM > Subject: Fwd: Fw: Pali Text Society announcements > To: Win Win yee > > From: Ven. Zhen Jue > > Date: Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 5:51 PM > Subject: Fw: Pali Text Society announcements > To: >  > Pali Text Society > announcements: > > 1. Journal of the Pali Text > Society > PDF files of volumes 1-8 (1882-1927) are now available for > free download from: http://www.palitext.com/palitext/JPTS_PDF.htm > <...> [S: all the details were given, but it's a very long list, so I've snipped it - I can send it to anyone off-list.] > The Padas of Thera- and Ther.i-gaathaa (ed. W. Stede); > Memories of Ceylon (W. Geiger); > A New Reading of Dhammapada 207 (V. Lesny); > Buddhism and the Negative (Mrs Rhys Davids); > Maayaa in a Greek Papyrus (?) (O. Stein); > <..> > 2. A Critical Pali > Dictionary > The next fascicle of vol. III will be the last fascicle. > Following its publication in 2010 no further fascicles will > be published. All fascicles published so far are now > available from the Pali Text Society as follows: > > > > > Vol. I (a), 12 unbound fascicles (including Prolegomena and > Epilegomena), 1924-1948; £110.00 > Vol. II (Ä?-o), 17 unbound fascicles 1960-1990; £150.00 > Vol. III (k-) 6 unbound fascicles (incomplete), 1992-2001 > £55.00 > > Fascicles can also be purchased Individually at a cost of > £10.00 each. > > 3. Margaret Cone, A Dictionary of > Pali > The PTS hopes to publish part 2 of this new dictionary > covering the letters g to n in 2010. > > Membership of the PTS (£25 per year or £100 for five > years) entitles you to 1 free book (of your choice) a year > and 20% off all other books. > > For details of how to join and support the Society email pts@... > or visit the website at http://www.palitext.com/ > With best wishes, > > Rupert Gethin > > --Rupert Gethin > > University of Bristol > Department of Theology and Religious Studies > 3 Woodland Road > Bristol BS8 1TB, UK > > http://www.bris.ac.uk/thrs/ **** S: I've been a member of PTS since the mid-70s. I recommend it - if possible, take out the 5 yr subscription which supports their good work and entitles you to a free book of your choice every year.... a very good investment. Metta Sarah (& Jon) ================ #103324 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:57 am Subject: Re: Vipassana while watching TV vs Sila #7 rjkjp1 dear Alex like what Charles said. And if we are watching TV why torture ourselves by feeling we are not keeping teh 8 precepts: understanding works better I feel. Robert ""Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C. S. Lewis --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: #103305 > > #103325 From: Dinesh Kularathne Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:59 am Subject: Need your help dinesh.kular... Hello All, I’m an absolute beginner of Abhidhamma. Please help me by answering my following question. What is the citta that arises in one’s mind when he/she thinks, “money is everythingâ€? (or when he/she thinks, “Colour of that vase is redâ€?)? Thank you, Dinesh #103326 From: Ken O Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fundamental difference - Effort ashkenn2k Dear Alex KO: The gist is can citta arouse effort if it does not see the danger of aksuala?.     Can a warrior win a battle without understanding the characteristics of dhamma and the roots of the cause of suffering? "If evil, unskillful thoughts â€" imbued with desire, aversion or delusion â€" still arise in the monk ... then â€" with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth â€" he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness." - mn20 "Beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness" - doesn't imply passive "just naturally happens" KO: When we read the suttas, we must understand when is conventional language is used.  If we could control thoughts, we could have stop the arising of aksuala, right here and right now. IMHO, Buddha would not have said beat down, constrain... he would said stopped it by you own control of your thoughts, but he said ... his mind with his awarenesss. The awareness of dhamma is the understanding of the characteristics of dhamma especially aksuala dhamma, that is how one arouse energy to crush and beat down the aksuala dhamma.  Cheers Ken O #103327 From: Ken O Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Natural Way of Development - No 1 ashkenn2k Dear Alex Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma, Chapther 9, pg 325 [Meditiation Practice] (1) Begining here I shall explain in due order the twofold meditation practise for the meditative cultivations of calm and insight. Commentary 1. Begining here, after the exposition of causal conditions, I shall explain in due order, in order of calm and insight, the twofold meditation practise (Kammatthana), namely the object, which is a kammatthana by its being the place for the activity of the work of the two kinds of meditative cultivation, and the method of meditative cultivation, which is kammatthana for its being the footing for the progressively higher practise of yoga, for the two meditative cultivations reckoned as calm, in the sense of calming the hindrances, and insight, in the sense of seeing [things] according to the different aspects of impermanence, etc. This is the construction. [Practice of Calm Mediation] (2) Therein, taking the summary of calm first, the summary of the practise of calm meditation has seven divisions; ten kasinas, ten uglinesses, ten recollections, four illimitables, one idea, one determining, four formless [meditation] ---------------------------- KO: the ten recollections include breathing meditation. It is not vipassna meditation. Cheers Ken O #103328 From: "Dinesh" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:20 am Subject: Re: Sunyata? dinesh.kular... Hi Colette! In response to your post: One (French(?))philosopher said that, "one cannot jump into (or bathe in) one river more than once"; and a Buddhist said that, "One cannot jump into a river at least once…" The matter is in eternal motion...Therefore, in Theravada Buddhism, it's `Anatta'... Not NOTHINGNESS /BLANKNESS as they teach in Hinduism, Mahayana Buddhism or in Western Philosophies. RIEN NE SE CREE! RIEN NE SE PERD!! With Metta, Dinesh Ps- In my opinion, Buddhism is founded upon `cause- effect-relations', not upon nothingness. :-). Please correct me if I am wrong. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi Group, > > Can anyone picture Sunyata? > > Does Sunyata have an appearance? > > Is Sunyata nothing more than a defination? Defining something, defining anything, is rather NON-BUDDHIST, since Buddhism is founded upon NOTHINGNESS. > <...> > And so this is christmas. And what have you done? An old year is over. And a new one, just begun. Didn't JOhn Lennon say that? > > toodles, > colette > #103329 From: "Icaro" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Natural Way of Development - No 1 icarofranca Hi Ken! > KO: the ten recollections include breathing meditation. It is not >vipassna meditation. Exact. Vipassana consists not only in breathing at this or that way, but in applying your mind on this very act: when inspire, one focuses mind on the thinking "I am inspiring". At the same fashion, in every act of daily life, when one walks,one thinks " I am walking" and so on...'till the point when mind can get the idea of "WHO is breathing, walking, seating, thinking ?" or "What is the 'self' who experiences all this phenomena?" There are many forms and variants of Vipassana teaching - Goenka, Mahasi Sayadaw, etc...but this is the technique once was teached to me! Mettaya Ícaro #103331 From: "Icaro" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:16 am Subject: Re: Sunyata? icarofranca Hi Dinesh! Respectfully butting in... > > Ps- In my opinion, Buddhism is founded upon `cause effect- >relations', not >upon nothingness. :-). Please correct me if I am >wrong. Well...none of them. Buddha´s dispensation is a concern about suffering. There is suffering and it has got a cause - desire - and an end and a way to reach the end of suffering. Even being a definition, "Cause and Effect" are ruled by the main idea of mundane and celestial suffering. At the very end of the "Anuradha Sutta", Buddha says "Good, good Anuradha! As a matter of fact, I only teach about suffering and the end of Suffering" (Samyutta Nikaya, XXII, 36). Notions as nothingness( Sunyata, or, as Colette says, "Sun Ya Ta") are a further elaboration of basic ideas, belonging more to Mahayana than to Theravada. Mettaya Ícaro #103332 From: Ken O Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:30 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 4 ashkenn2k Dear all The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha,5 the Abhidhammattha VibhÃ¥vanà (Book 8), gives an explanation of paramattha dhammas (fundamental or ultimate realities), sammutti dhammas (conventional realities) and paññatti dhammas (concepts). This subject pertains to daily life, it is deep in meaning and it should be correctly understood. Names can be given because there is the reality of sound. Sounds form up names, in PÃ¥li: nÃ¥ma. This word nÃ¥ma does not refer to nÃ¥madhamma, the reality that experiences. A name “bends towards,â€? conveys the meanings of things. “Namatiâ€? in PÃ¥li means: to bend, incline towards. According to the subcommentary there are two kinds of names: a name which is suitable to convey a meaning, and a name which is used because of preference. About what do we speak in daily life? Why do we speak? We speak in order that someone else will understand the subject we refer to. Thus, sadda-rúpa (sound) functions then as name, nÃ¥ma, it bends towards, conveys the meaning of the different subjects we want to make known. The fact that someone else understands the meaning of what we say and the subjects we speak about depends on the words we use to convey the meaning, it depends on the language we choose to express ourselves. The Abhidhammattha VibhÃ¥vanÃdeals with several other aspects concerning different kinds of names. It distinguishes between four kinds of names. There are names which are generally agreed upon (sÃ¥mañña nÃ¥ma), such as sky, rain, wind, or rice. There are names denoting a special quality (guùa nÃ¥ma), such as “Arahatta SammÃ¥sambuddho.â€? 6 Someone who does not have the special qualities of a Buddha cannot have this name. Then there are names denoting activity (kiriya nÃ¥ma) and names that are given according to ones liking. The Dhamma is very intricate and detailed. We should study all realities that the Buddha realized at his enlightenment and taught to others. He wanted to help people to understand the true nature of the realities which appear. The Abhidhammattha VibhÃ¥vanÃstates:  Question: For which reason did the Buddha teach the Dhamma in such an extensive way? Answer: Because he wished to help three groups of beings. There are beings who are slow in understanding nÃ¥ma (mentality), beings who are slow in understanding rúpa (materiality, physical phenomena), and beings who are slow in understanding both nÃ¥ma and rúpa. They have different faculties: some have keen faculties, some have faculties of medium strength, and some have weak faculties. There are people who like short explanations, there are people who like explanations of medium length, and there are people who like detailed explanations. Those among the different groups who are slow in understanding as regards nÃ¥ma can understand realities as explained by way of five khandhas,7 because nÃ¥ma is classified by way of four khandhas, thus, in a more extensive way. Those who are slow in understanding as regards rúpa can understand realities as explained by way of Ã¥yatanas.8 The five senses and the five sense objects are ten kinds of rúpa which are Ã¥yatanas. As to dhammÃ¥yatana this comprises both nÃ¥ma and rúpa. Thus in this classification rúpa has been explained more extensively. Those who are slow in understanding as to both nÃ¥ma and rúpa can understand realities as explained by way of elements, dhÃ¥tus,9 because in this classification both nÃ¥ma and rúpa have been explained in detail.  (to be continued)  Ken O #103333 From: Ken O Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:39 am Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 2 ashkenn2k Dear all Q. : What is attÃ¥-saññå, remembrance of self? S. : AttÃ¥-saññå is remembrance (saññå) with clinging to the concept of self (attÃ¥), thus, wrong perception of self. We do not need to have doubts about attÃ¥-saññå because we all are familiar with it. When a person has realized the noble Truths at the attainment of the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the streamwinner, sotÃ¥panna, the wrong view is eradicated which takes realities for self, for beings or for people. However, there is bound to be attÃ¥-saññå if one has not developed satipaììhÃ¥na. There is bound to be ignorance and wrong view if sati does not arise, if there is no awareness of the characteristics of realities as they naturally appear through one doorway at a time. Wrong view takes the realities which appear for a compound, a “wholeâ€?, for something which lasts, for attÃ¥, self. If people do not know at this moment realities as they are, there is bound to be attÃ¥-saññå, the remembrance or perception that it is “Iâ€? who is seeing, and that what is seen is a being, a person, a self. When someone has only theoretical understanding of realities that is the result of listening to the Dhamma, he is not able to directly understand nÃ¥ma and rúpa as they are. He does not realize that what he sees and conceives as people and beings, is in reality only that which appears through the eyes. Therefore, we should time and again investigate the Dhamma we hear and study, we should ponder over it in all details. Only in this way the meaning of the words which designate characteristics of realities can be fully understood. The wording “that which appears through the eyesâ€? describing the characteristic of visible object is altogether appropriate. It explains that visible object is only an element (dhÃ¥tu) appearing through the eyes so that it can be seen. No matter what colour it is: red, green, blue, yellow or white, a bright or a dull colour, it must appear when it impinges on the rúpa which is eyesense. When someone, after having seen what appears through the eyesense, does not understand realities as they are, there is bound to be attÃ¥-saññå. He takes what was seen for people, beings or things. When people are absorbed in different colours, it causes them to think of a “wholeâ€?, of shape and form, and thus there is remembrance (saññå) of the outward appearance of persons and things. When it seems that one sees people, beings or things, there are in reality only different colours which are seen, such as black, white, the colour of skin, red or yellow. (to be continued) cheers Ken O #103334 From: "connie" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:19 am Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 38-39), OBSCURATIONS 101, TYRANNY, ... nichiconn dear colette, my simple thought is that weddings and funerals can both be considered celebrations of/tributes to clinging/addiction. peace, connie #103335 From: "connie" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:21 am Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 40-41) nichiconn dear pt and all, Illustrator continues: [Stanza 12] 40. Here is the meaning. 'But when this offering (aya~n ca kho dakkhi.naa), Great King, is given (dinnaa), as has been done by you today with dedication to one's own relatives, well placed in the Community (sanghamhi supati.t.thitaa), for them (assa), for those departed ghost people, then, since the Community is the incomparable field of merit for the world' (M i 37), it can serve them long in future (diigharatta"m hitaaya upakappati) - can be efficacious, fruitful, is what is meant - and so serving, it can serve them at once as well (thaanaso), can serve at that very moment instead of long afterwards. And just as it is said of him to whom [ideas] are perspicuous at that very moment 'It is perspicuous for a Perfect One at once (.thanaaso), (cf S i 193), so too here, what serves at that very moment is said to serve 'at once' (lit. 'on the spot'). Or else what is meant is that it serves in that very place (.thaana), divided into that of the Famished-and-thirsty, of the Eaters-of-vomit, of the Living-on-gifts-to-others, of the Consumed-by-craving, etc., of which it is said 'That is the place (thaana), and an almsgiving serves him while he remains there' (§30), [in which case the adverb .thaanaso ('by place') is used] in the same way as when in the world [outside the Dispensation] they say of one givng a kahaapa.na coin that he 'gives by kahaapa.nas (kahaapa.naso)'; [215] and with this interpretation of the meaning, [the word] serves implies 'is manifest, is generated'. 41. So the Blessed One said Aya~n ca kho dakkhi.naa dinnaa sanghamhi supati.t.thitaa Diigharatta"m hitaay'assa .thaanaso upakappati. 'But when this offering is given 'Well placed in the Community 'For them, then it can serve them long 'In future and at once as well.' And when he had said this, pointing out the value of the offering given by the king, he then uttered the final stanza, praising the king for genuine special qualities on account of the following reason, which are these: when someone gives such an offering as this, the True Idea for relatives is shown by him as the doing of tasks that should be done by relatives for relatives; or alternatively, an indication is given to the many thus 'The True Idea for relatives should be fulfilled by you in doing the tasks that ought to be done by relatives for relatives only in this way and not by self-torture with unhelpful weeping, etc.'; and also 'High honour is done to the departed by your causing those departed ones to gain heavenly excellence; and also strength is furnished for bhikkhus by your supplying with food, drink, etc., the Community headed by the Enlightened One; and also no little merit is laid up by you who have evidenced a generous choice equipped with the special qualities of compassion, and so on'. ...peace, connie #103336 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassana while watching TV vs Sila #7 truth_aerator Dear Charles, all, >--- Charles Xxxxxx wrote: > > > Good friend Alex, et al > > May I interject on this portion of your message? > > You wrote in part (Excerpt): > > Question: > >What about sutta passages forbidding watching shows and >entertainments as part of training in 8 or 10 precepts? > > > >7. Nacca-gita-vadita-visukkadassana mala-gandha-vilepana-dharana >-mandana-vibhusanathana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami > > > > I undertake the precept to refrain from dancing, singing, music, going > to see entertainments, wearing garlands, using perfumes, and > beautifying the body with cosmetics. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/atthasila.html > > > > How do you reconcile 7th precept and watching movies? > > > ................................................................................\ ...... End excerpt > > > 1. On your question: > > Question: What about sutta passages forbidding watching shows and entertainments as part of training in 8 or 10 precepts? > > C: I do not recall the historic Buddha teaching in the Tipitaka >any "forbidding" in the Precepts. Тhe pali "veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami" veramani = abstinence sikkhapada = a precept; a religious rule. samadiyami = 1st person "taken upon myself" So I would translate "I undertake the precept to abstain from dancing, singing, music, going to see entertainments, wearing garlands, using perfumes, and beautifying the body with cosmetics." > Would you kindly list the sutta(s) which "forbid" in the voluntary Forbid = abstain. >observing of the five main precepts? Or, the other additional >precepts; such, as the seventh of which you write. In DN#1 there are training rules to abstain from watching shows, in sutta dealing with Uposatha observance and many others. > > As I understand, observing the precepts are voluntary and the depth we observe a precept is also voluntary. > > 2. On your question: > > Question: How do you reconcile 7th precept and watching movies? > > C: As I was taught, we voluntarily observe the precepts to the >depth we wish. If I wish to watch a violent movie about the Tibetan monks or Myanmar (Burmese) monks being slaughtered, it is up to me, to decide. > > I may decide it is beneficial to watch. > > Good friend Alex, et al > > Just my dos centavos... > > metta (maitri), > Isn't it better to train oneself to follow as many precepts (veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami) as circumstances allow? I understand that a layperson cannot always follow all precepts (like handling money). But there are essential actions for livelihood and non-essential. Handling money is essential for most laypeople. Watching violent movies is not... "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html With metta, Alex #103337 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:45 am Subject: Re: Vipassana while watching TV vs Sila #7 truth_aerator Dear Robertk2, Charles, all, SO are you saying that one can ignore the training rules that the Buddha laid down, as one sees fit? With metta, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > dear Alex > like what Charles said. > And if we are watching TV why torture ourselves by feeling we are not keeping teh 8 precepts: understanding works better I feel. > Robert > ""Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C. S. Lewis > > #103338 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Without the Walls (Cy 38-39), OBSCURATIONS 101, TYRANNY, ... upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and Colette) - In a message dated 12/11/2009 11:20:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: dear colette, my simple thought is that weddings and funerals can both be considered celebrations of/tributes to clinging/addiction. ---------------------------------------------------- How about love in both cases, and honoring also in the latter. Relative to this list. I think of the marriage of Nina & Lodewijk, Sarah & Jon, and my wife, Rita, and me as just a few examples that seem clear to me and for which I know both partners. No doubt there is attachment involved - we are all yet human, but there is also love, devotion, and respect. --------------------------------------------------- peace, connie ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103339 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:39 am Subject: Re: Is everything predetermined? truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, > sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alex, > ... > S: Decide now to only ever be good, to only ever have kind thoughts, to be generous, to be wise! > > And what are the cittas now? > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== "A person proposes and conditions disposes." A person (a citta to be precise) can make resolution and has a choice. However not everything depends on resolution itself. The inner and outer circumstances may thwart previously made resolution. In the suttas Buddha very often talked quite forcefully about effort. His similes and the pali grammar (active present verbs, etc) DOES suggest very forceful practice at times. For example: The warrior simile "Then there is the warrior who can handle the cloud of dust, the top of the enemy's banner, the tumult, & the hand-to-hand combat. On winning the battle, victorious in battle, he comes out at the very head of the battle. Some warriors are like this. This is the fifth type of warrior who can be found existing in the world." "This [awakening], for him, is victory in the battle. - AN 5.75 Simile for Effort for Awakening here is "like effort of a warrior in hand-to-hand combat and all the battles". One is to develop effort like one's head was on fire to eliminate unwholesome qualities (AN 6.20). One should exert even to the point of tears (AN 4.5). One should have the resolution "Let my flesh and blood dries up, but I will not move until awakening" . One should "he does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence." MN2 If more gentle methods do not work, then one should SUBDUE unwholesome qualities by ramming the tongue against the roof of the mouth and crush mind with mind. MN20. "If evil, unskillful thoughts â€" imbued with desire, aversion or delusion â€" still arise in the monk ... then â€" with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth â€" he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness." - mn20 "Beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness" - doesn't imply passive "just naturally happens" "A person without ardor, without concern, is incapable of self-awakening, incapable of Unbinding, incapable of attaining the unexcelled security from bondage. A person ardent & concerned is capable of self-awakening, capable of Unbinding, capable of attaining the unexcelled security from bondage." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.028-049.than.html#iti-034 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.075.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html The deliberate and wise practice (which was often mentioned) depends on the appropriate effort and a certain set of conditions. With metta, Alex #103340 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:44 am Subject: Re: The Natural Way of Development - No 1 truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > >> ---------------------------- > KO: the ten recollections include breathing meditation. It is not vipassna meditation. > > > Cheers > Ken O Dear KenO, all, according to the suttas, anapanasati fullfills 4 satipatthana, 7 factors of awakening and can lead to Arhatship. MN118 With metta, Alex #103341 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Carita - Nettipakkarana truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, > sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > --- On Mon, 7/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >>If person is mostly Tanha-Carita, then one should follow insight >preceded by tranqullity to understand Buddha's teaching. > ... > S: Aren't we all "mostly tanha-carita" (of greedy temperament) all >day, every day? Even when first born (i.e first conceived), what are >the first carita manifesting? And what did Netti recommend for tanha-carita? >Who can choose what to follow? Citta (which is anatta). > What about all you've read about conditioned dhammas, Alex? What >about all the points everyone's been making to you in this regard? >Anatta! > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== Does anatta makes citta unable to chose when conditions allow? As I've said, the suttas often stress superhuman effort and warrior attitude. This is hard to reconcile with "things just happen. Don't do anything. Just wait till conditions fall on you..." With metta, Alex #103342 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? kenhowardau Hi Sarah (Han and Nina), ------------ KH: > > Correct me if I am wrong but I think the above is simply saying "I have free will" and "I do not have free will" are the two extremes. S: > I haven't checked, but I thought it was saying that we can't blame past kamma for all our present defilements. Akusala vipaka to receive the blows, but akusala accumulations to kill or lie on account of them.... -------------- No need to check, I am sure you will be right. :-) I have to admit my first thoughts were, 'Kamma or kilesa - what does it matter? If there are only dhammas (and no self) what difference does it make how this or that particular dhamma is conditioned?' I suppose the answer to my question is: until we know dhammas thoroughly, we will never have direct knowledge of them. We will never really know what we are talking about! This realisation may have been prompted by your conversation with Han and Nina (103308) (quote) >Dear Han, I'd also like to thank you (belatedly, as usual!) for kindly presenting the series and doing so beautifully. Some people may wonder why it's necessary or interesting to study rupas at all. I believe the conclusion makes it clear that without an understanding of namas and rupas, there can never be any insight, never any following of the Path: --- On Sun, 29/11/09, han tun wrote: >The study of the different kinds of ruupa will help us to understand more clearly the various conditions for the arising of bodily phenomena and mental phenomena. Gradually we shall come to understand that all our experiences in life, all the objects we experience, our bodily movements and our speech are only conditioned naama and ruupa.< >It may seem difficult to be mindful of one reality at a time, but realities such as visible object, hardness or sound are impinging on the senses time and again. When we have understood that they have different characteristics and that they present themselves one at a time, we can learn to be mindful of them. We should remember that at the moment of mindfulness of a reality understanding of that reality can be developed. Right understanding should be the goal. There is no self who understands. Understanding is a cetasika, a type of naama; it understands and it can develop.< .... S: thanks again, Han! I look forward to your next series!! Metta Sarah > (end quote) Yes, I second all that. I just wish I was a better student with better concentration. Able to read texts of more than one paragraph! Ken H #103343 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Natural Way of Development - No 1 truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Icaro" wrote: > > Hi Ken! > > > > KO: the ten recollections include breathing meditation. It is not >vipassna meditation. > > Exact. Vipassana consists not only in breathing at this or that way, but in applying your mind on this very act: when inspire, one focuses mind on the thinking "I am inspiring". At the same fashion, in every act of daily life, when one walks,one thinks " I am walking" and so on...'till the point when mind can get the idea of "WHO is breathing, walking, seating, thinking ?" or "What is the 'self' who experiences all this phenomena?" > > There are many forms and variants of Vipassana teaching - Goenka, Mahasi Sayadaw, etc...but this is the technique once was teached to me! > > Mettaya > > Ícaro > Dear Icaro, The Buddha taught 16 steps of Anapanasati. Anapanasati develops 4 satipatthanas and 7 factors of awakening. Thus it is not "simple samatha", at least not the anapana*sati* taught in MN118 With metta, Alex #103344 From: A T Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:41 pm Subject: Dhs Vs CMA. Contradictions truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, As I was looking over Pali Dhammasangani, I've found strange things. Example: akusalaṃ cittaṃ with somanassasahagataṃ with diá¹¹¹ƒ. How can moho arise with somanassasahagataṃ in one citta? How can moho arise with samatho or samÄ?dhindriyaṃ in one citta? How can moho arise with micchÄ?diá¹¹ in one citta? 365. Katame dhammÄ? akusalÄ?? Yasmiṃ samaye akusalaṃ cittaṃ uppannaṃ hoti somanassasahagataṃ diá¹¹¹ƒ rÅ«pÄ?rammaṇaṃ vÄ? saddÄ?rammaṇaṃ vÄ? gandhÄ?rammaṇaṃ vÄ? rasÄ?rammaṇaṃ vÄ? phoá¹¹?rammaṇaṃ vÄ? dhammÄ?rammaṇaṃ vÄ? yaṃ yaṃ vÄ? panÄ?rabbha, tasmiṃ samaye phasso hoti, vedanÄ? hoti, saññÄ? hoti, cetanÄ? hoti, cittaṃ hoti, vitakko hoti, vicÄ?ro hoti, pÄ«ti hoti, sukhaṃ hoti, cittassekaggatÄ? hoti, vÄ«riyindriyaṃ hoti, samÄ?dhindriyaṃ hoti, manindriyaṃ hoti, somanassindriyaṃ hoti, jÄ«vitindriyaṃ hoti, micchÄ?diá¹¹ hoti, micchÄ?saá¹…kappo hoti, micchÄ?vÄ?yÄ?mo hoti, micchÄ?samÄ?dhi hoti, vÄ«riyabalaṃ hoti, samÄ?dhibalaṃ hoti, ahirikabalaṃ hoti, anottappabalaṃ hoti, lobho hoti, moho hoti, abhijjhÄ? hoti, micchÄ?diá¹¹ hoti, ahirikaṃ hoti, anottappaṃ hoti, samatho hoti, paggÄ?ho hoti, avikkhepo hoti; ye vÄ? pana tasmiṃ samaye aññepi atthi paá¹? arÅ«pino dhammÄ? – ime dhammÄ? akusalÄ?. Dhs. PTS 75 With metta, Alex #103345 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:01 pm Subject: Worthy Wandering... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How to go in order to reach the End! The Buddha once explained how to wander appropriately in this world: Having rooted out omens, symbols, tokens, dreams and signs, such bhikkhu, will wander properly in this world. Having dispelled his passion for sensual pleasures, both human and divine. Having gone beyond all renewed becoming. Having understood the Dhamma doctrine, he would wander properly in this world. Having put slander, anger and meanness behind him, and with both compliance and opposition completely relinquished, he wanders worthy here. Having abandoned both the pleasant and the unpleasant, not clinging, not dependent upon anything, completely released from all the mental confines, one will wander rightly in this world. Having dispelled all passion and desire for attachments and acquisitions void of essence, independent, not to be led by others, he would wander properly in the world. Not opposing anyone or anything neither mentally, verbally or physically, longing for the state of quenching, neither wounding, nor binding others, without thorns or doubts, one can wander smoothly in this world. Knowing that only harmlessness is suitable for himself, with the roots of hate, greed & ignorance rooted out, being without any inclination, latent tendency or mental fermentation, he would wander properly in this world. Convinced, learned, seeing this 1 way, not following any faction among the groups, sects, or families, quite wise, having eliminated both favouritism and aversion, victoriously purified, far famed, mastering all mental phenomena, gone to the far shore, without lust, skilled in ceasing all activity, he will wander silenced, all quiet in this world. Discerning events both past and future, entirely released from all sensing, knowing the state of peace, self-controlled, having razed all accumulation, he would wander perfectly in any world... Sn 360-375 <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #103346 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:18 pm Subject: Re: Vipassana while watching TV vs Sila #7 dhammasaro Alex wrote in part: Dear Robertk2, Charles, all, SO are you saying that one can ignore the training rules that the Buddha laid down, as one sees fit? With metta, Alex ........................................ Good friend Alex, Well, you could look at the voluntary training precepts that way. However, I do not. I look at the voluntary training precepts as a way-of-practice. The depth of the practice is up to me. To illustrate: On killing... I can refrain from killing an annoying mosquito or fly or i can kill it immediately. Did I fail to follow the killing training precept? To me, that is up to me to decide. FWIW, I look at the word "rules" as "commandments." The historic Buddha did not give us laypersons any rules nor commandments. He did make rules for the bhikkhu (monk) which are in the Vinaya-pitaka. metta (maitri), Chuck --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Robertk2, Charles, all, > > > SO are you saying that one can ignore the training rules that the Buddha laid down, as one sees fit? > > > With metta, > > Alex > > ........... rest deleted by chuck #103347 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:40 pm Subject: Re: Vipassana while watching TV vs Sila #7 dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Charles, all, > snip... to be discussed later. Chuck > Isn't it better to train oneself to follow as many precepts > (veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami) as circumstances allow? C: Of course. I understand that a layperson cannot always follow all precepts (like handling money). But there are essential actions for livelihood and non-essential. Handling money is essential for most laypeople. Watching violent movies is not... C: No argument. > > > "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html C: So, observing the voluntary five main training precepts and the additional precepts are going against the flow? Is that what you are saying? > With metta, > > > Alex > metta (maitri), Chuck #103348 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:53 pm Subject: Re: Vipassana while watching TV vs Sila #7 truth_aerator Dear Chuck, all > "charlest" wrote: > > > > "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is >the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and >doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though >it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in >tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called >the individual who goes against the flow." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html > >C: So, observing the voluntary five main training precepts and the >additional precepts are going against the flow? > > Is that what you are saying? > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck Yes. Following the precepts is going against the flow of specific akusala actions. Training precepts hold in check certain unwholesome states. Example: 1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami "I undertake the precept to abstain from destroying living creatures." This goes against the flow of coarse Dosa and all its manifestations. 3. Abrahmacariya veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami "I undertake the precept to abstain from any sexual activity." This goes against the flow of coarse lobha/tanha. With metta, Alex #103349 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassana while watching TV vs Sila #7 dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: snip..... > Alex: Тhe pali "veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami" C: I am not familiar with "Тhe." Please explain. Warm thanks. Chuck > Alex: > veramani = abstinence > sikkhapada = a precept; a religious rule. > samadiyami = 1st person "taken upon myself" > C: I translate "veramani" as "refrain." See below on your "Forbid = abstain." Hence, I translate as ajahn Brahm: "10. Jatarupa-rajata-patiggahana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from accepting gold and silver (i.e.money) and having control over money for my own use." See: http://www.bswa.org/modules/xoopsfaq/index.php?cat_id=11 > > Alex: So I would translate "I undertake the precept to abstain from dancing, singing, music, going to see entertainments, wearing garlands, using perfumes, and beautifying the body with cosmetics." > C: Okay, you "voluntarily" undertake the precept.... At least, that is my interpretation. Hence, I guess we agree to disagree on the point of "voluntary" and "commandment." [smiles] > > > > C: Would you kindly list the sutta(s) which "forbid" in the voluntary > > Alex: Forbid = abstain. > C: Well, it is not my synonym. Please peruse: 1. http://thesaurus.infoplease.com/refrain 2. http://thesaurus.infoplease.com/abstinence 3. http://thesaurus.infoplease.com/forbid I fail to observe a congruency. > > > >observing of the five main precepts? Or, the other additional >precepts; such, as the seventh of which you write. > > In DN#1 there are training rules to abstain from watching shows, in sutta dealing with Uposatha observance and many others. > C: Yes, most of the time the layperson(s) only observe the additional training precepts every 15 days (Uposatha), pujas, etc. metta (maitri), Chuck #103350 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:04 pm Subject: Re: Vipassana while watching TV vs Sila #7 dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Chuck, all > > > "charlest" wrote: > > > > > > "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is >the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and >doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though >it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in >tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called >the individual who goes against the flow." > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html > > > >C: So, observing the voluntary five main training precepts and the >additional precepts are going against the flow? > > > > Is that what you are saying? > > > > metta (maitri), > > > > Chuck > > > Yes. Following the precepts is going against the flow of specific akusala actions. Training precepts hold in check certain unwholesome states. > > > Example: > 1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami > "I undertake the precept to abstain from destroying living creatures." > This goes against the flow of coarse Dosa and all its manifestations. > C: 1. I do not see killing living creatures as going against the flow. In fact, I do see the five main training precepts as not going against the flow. To me, it simply is correct morality. But, I may well be incorrect. 2. How far does refraining from killing living creatures do you observe? a. Every time you wash your face do you know you kill living creatures? b. When you drink tap water or bottled water, living creatures were killed in the water preparation. To keep from killing living creatures do you go down to the river or stream and use a monk's water filter? Just rhetorical questions. ..................................... >Alex: > 3. Abrahmacariya veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami > "I undertake the precept to abstain from any sexual activity." > > This goes against the flow of coarse lobha/tanha. > C: I believe most laypersons only observe this training precept every 15 days, etc. C: On the referenced sutta. I think is addresses more than just sexual activity. See this excerpt: Thus the enlightened one, with mindfulness here established, not indulging in sensuality & evil, though it may be with pain, would abandon sensuality. They call him one who goes against the flow. FWIW, I think the word "sensuality" addresses more than mere sex. http://dictionary.infoplease.com/sensuality http://thesaurus.infoplease.com/sensuality .................................................. Alex: This goes against the flow of coarse lobha/tanha. C: I do not know about sexual activity between a husband and a wife being "coarse lobha/tanha." Perhaps. Can you cite a sutta? Warm thanks. ............................... > > With metta, > > Alex > metta (maitri), Chuck #103351 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:04 pm Subject: Re: Vipassana while watching TV vs Sila #7 truth_aerator Dear Chuck, all, > dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" > wrote: > > > > Dear Chuck, all > > > > > "charlest" wrote: > > > > > > > > "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There >is >the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions >and >doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even >though >it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his >face in >tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This >is called >the individual who goes against the flow." > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html > > > > > >C: So, observing the voluntary five main training precepts and the >additional precepts are going against the flow? > > > > > > Is that what you are saying? > > > > > > metta (maitri), > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > Yes. Following the precepts is going against the flow of specific akusala actions. Training precepts hold in check certain unwholesome states. > > > > > > Example: > > 1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami > > "I undertake the precept to abstain from destroying living creatures." > > This goes against the flow of coarse Dosa and all its manifestations. > > > C: > > 1. I do not see killing living creatures as going against the flow. Try to refrain from swapping a mosquito! I personally try not to kill even mosquitoes, flies (though sometimes wrong moves happen). I do drink filtrated water, though for other purposes. Natural tendencies is to swap mosquitoes and kill insects whenever they become bothersome. This is natural instinct, "natural flow". To avoid doing it, is going against deeply ingrained habit. IMHO. > > To me, it simply is correct morality. NO NO NO! It is also a training in restraint of the unwholesome tendencies of the mind. It is restraint of unwholesome and ignorant tendencies of the body and speech door. It is very important! As netti says: 587: "The Blessed One makes one of blunt faculties understand by means of the training in the higher virtue." > > But, I may well be incorrect. > > 2. How far does refraining from killing living creatures do you >observe? Don't kill flies and mosquitoes. > a. Every time you wash your face do you know you kill living >creatures? I am not aware of any creatures when I shower. I don't go to that level, yet. > > b. When you drink tap water I don't. I drink filtered water. > or bottled water, living creatures were killed in the water >preparation. To keep from killing living creatures > do you go down to the river or stream and use a monk's water filter? > > Just rhetorical questions. I don't yet completely follow that rule to avoid possibly harming unseen creatures. In fact, until now I haven't considered that when I shower there may be creatures be killed. With metta, Alex #103352 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:46 pm Subject: Re: Vipassana while watching TV vs Sila #7 dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Chuck, all, > I do drink filtrated water, though for other purposes. > C: If it is commercially prepared filtered water, then living being are killed in the process. Alex: > Natural tendencies is to swap mosquitoes and kill insects whenever they become bothersome. This is natural instinct, "natural flow". > > To avoid doing it, is going against deeply ingrained habit. IMHO. > ............................................................. > > C: To me, it simply is correct morality. Alex: > NO NO NO! It is also a training in restraint of the unwholesome tendencies of the mind. It is restraint of unwholesome and ignorant tendencies of the body and speech door. It is very important! > C: 1. I do not think I wrote it was not a training in restraint. 2. What do you mean by: It is restraint of unwholesome and ignorant tendencies of the body and speech door. 3. When you have the time, may I suggest a review of the Pali words sila, sikkha, sikkhapada, adhisila-sikkha, panca-sila, dasa-sila, atta-sila, kemesu micchacara, kama-tanha (-raga). Alex: > As netti says: > > 587: "The Blessed One makes one of blunt faculties understand by means of the training in the higher virtue." > C: And, what does the above mean? > > C: > > 2. How far does refraining from killing living creatures do you >observe? > Alex: > Don't kill flies and mosquitoes. > C: > > a. Every time you wash your face do you know you kill living >creatures? > Alex: > I am not aware of any creatures when I shower. I don't go to that level, yet. > > C: > > b. When you drink tap water > Alex: > I don't. I drink filtered water. > C: See above about commercially prepared filtered water. > > or bottled water, living creatures were killed in the water >preparation. To keep from killing living creatures > > do you go down to the river or stream and use a monk's water filter? > > Alex: > I don't yet completely follow that rule to avoid possibly harming unseen creatures. In fact, until now I haven't considered that when I shower there may be creatures be killed. > C: Well, I think in killing the intention comes into play. > With metta, > > Alex > metta (maitri), Chuck Post Script: I think I am guilty of moving us the topic you originally proposed. I apologize. Perhaps, we should begin a new message. What do you think? #103353 From: "connie" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:45 pm Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 38-39), OBSCURATIONS 101, TYRANNY, ... nichiconn dear Howard, i'm afraid that in terms of colette's #103302, I'd have to say your defense of love & marriage would be another example of addicts' behaviour - sorry. peace, connie #103354 From: Ken O Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Natural Way of Development - No 1 ashkenn2k Dear Alex Anapanasati start as samatha meditation, concentrating on fixing the mind on the counting etc. to reach access and absorption (jhanas). After attaining absorption, then one established insight by defining materiality and mentality. One could only practise insight after emerging out of jhanas. That is how one attain Arahatship, not through samantha alone, it must be with panna. pg 35, The Commentary to the Sutta, Anapanasati, written by Bhikkhu Nanamoli <> Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary, pg 346 <> Commentary to Satipathanna Sutaa, written by Soma Thera, it should be inside access of insight website <> Cheers Ken O #103355 From: "connie" Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:11 pm Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 42-43.) nichiconn dear pt and all, here's the final exerpt from ch.vii: [Stanza 13] 42. [So in this final stanza,] with the line So ~naatidhammo ca aya"m nidassito 'The True Idea for relatives has thus been shown' he instructs (sandasseti) the king with a talk on the True Idea; for here the demonstration (nidassana) of the True Idea for relatives is itself the instruction (sandassana). Then with the second line Petaama"m puujaa ca kataa u.laaraa 'And how high honour to departed ones is done' he urges him in undertaking (samaadapeti); for here the praise 'high' is itself the urging to undertake (samaadaapana) that honour again and again. Then with the line Bala~n ca bhikkhuuna"m nauppadinna"m 'And how the bhikkhus can be given strength as well' he rouses (samuttejeti) him; for here the giving of strength itself is the rousing (samuttejana) by increasing his activity in the provision of strength [stated as] 'The provision of strength to those of such kind' ( ). And with the line Tumehi pu~n~na"m pasuta"m anappaka"m 'And how great merit can be stored away by you' he encourages (sampaha"msati) him; for here the commemorating of notable merit should itself be understood as the encouraging (sampaha"msana) since it produces encouragement [216] by laying emphasis on his special qualities as they actually are. 43. And when the preaching was ended, eighty-four thousand breathing things attained to the True Ideal by reasoned endeavouring due to the sense of urgency occasioned by the emphasis laid on the danger in appearance in the Ghost Realm. And on the following day the Blessed One preached this same Without-the-walls Discourse to gods and men and so on up to the seventh day with a like attainment to the True Idea. The explanation of the Without-the-walls Discourse in the Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning, the Commentary on the Minor Books, is ended. === Minor Readings and Illustrator / PTS 1997 === sutta: #102750 cy: #102824 (1-2); #102869 (3-4); #102889 (5-6); #102912 (7-9); #102953 (10-11); #102997 (12-13); #103027 (14-17); #103061 (18-20); #103096 (21-22); #103104 (23-25); #103112 (26-27); #103141 (28-31); #103165 (32-33); #103200 (34-35); #103259 (36-37); (38-39); #103335 (40-41); (42-43.) peace, connie #103356 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:27 am Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? dhammasaro Good friend Ken H, et al Warm thanks for the clarification on ajahn Thanissaro's translation. metta (maitri), Chuck --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > --- > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.085.than.html > > > > Do you all agree it is applicable in this discussion? > > > ---- > > Yes, spot on! > > Here, "empty" means empty of self. It does not mean empty of "own > being" as some Mahayana texts try to tell us. The eye, for example, is > empty of self, not of eye. > > BTW, one big problem with the translation you have linked us to is the > use of the word "ideas" in this context (an idiosyncrasy of Thanissaro > B). Ideas are concepts and, therefore, do not have inherent > characteristics. They do not have the anatta characteristic. They are > not "empty." > > Ken H > #103357 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? gazita2002 hallo KenH and other dhamma friends, Part of todays dhamma discussion was bout the khandhas, ....snip.... Han: [quoting from Nina's "rupas' - Right understanding should be the goal. > There is > no self who understands. Understanding is a cetasika, a type of naama; > it > understands and it can develop.< > .... Azita: the khandhas being real at this very moment, citta, cetasikas and rupa, arising, performing their function and falling away. It became clear to me today how impersonal the khandhas are. For example what Han has said in the above: Understanding being a cetasika, its function is to understand, its not interested in 'trying' to understand - it just does! Same with attachment [lobha] arises, performs its function of attaching and then falls away, its also has no 'personal' interest in being attached it just is - thats its function. Mostly we take it all for 'mine' and then wish it were different, that we werent so attached, or irritable, wish we were more generous, but realities arise, perform their function and fall away, no one can control these realities - but understanding - if it arises, can know them for what they really are: anatta, anicca and dukkha. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita PS Ken, there is no you to be a better student with better concentration, ;-) > Yes, I second all that. I just wish I was a better student with better > concentration. Able to read texts of more than one paragraph! > > Ken H > #103358 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Without the Walls (Cy 38-39), OBSCURATIONS 101, TYRANNY, ... upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 12/12/2009 1:46:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: dear Howard, i'm afraid that in terms of colette's #103302, I'd have to say your defense of love & marriage would be another example of addicts' behaviour - sorry. --------------------------------------------- Oh, that's okay, Connie. No need to be sorry. ;-) -------------------------------------------- peace, connie ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103359 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:13 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (316, 11-12) scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing from last: #102911 Fives (316, 10) (cy: ##103022) CSCD < Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:17 am Subject: Re: Sunyata? dinesh.kular... Hi Ícaro, Thank you for your reply. Well, you're not wrong at all… I think we'd be able to see a complete picture of the elephant if we only had three more people making it six of us in the group. None of us are wrong, Ícaro:-) We, putajjanas, are blind. With our limited vision we always see only one aspect of anything (especially of the truth). Not only the Buddha but also all the other religious leaders (some unconsciously) did was showing the ignorant populace a way to escape from suffering. What the Fully Awakened One's teaching makes so unique and different is that he revealed Dhamma itself (The Universal law of nature). Everything (Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta (tilakkhana), Four Noble Truths, and Dependant Origination etc.) is there in Dhamma. So none of us are wrong… but, unfortunately, we're all wrong as we still struggle to see the Dhamma as it is...:-)) "Scientifically interpreted, the Dhamma may be called the law of cause and effect" (Buddhism in a Nutshell by Narada Mahathera (Chapter V - Some Salient Features of Buddhism) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/narada/nutshell.html#ch2 ) Please correct me if I'm wrong again. > Notions as nothingness( Sunyata, or, as Colette says, "Sun Ya Ta") are a further elaboration of basic ideas, belonging more to Mahayana than to Theravada. Totally agreed. :) May you attain Nibbana in this very life! Metta, Dinesh --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Icaro" wrote: #103331 > > #103361 From: "connie" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:39 am Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 38-39), OBSCURATIONS 101, TYRANNY, ... nichiconn dear Howard, c:> i'm afraid that in terms of colette's #103302, I'd have to say your defense of love & marriage would be another example of addicts' behaviour - sorry. --------------------------------------------- H:> Oh, that's okay, Connie. No need to be sorry. ;-) -------------------------------------------- connie: O, but i like to! ;) I just mean sorry for any offense in the way I say things. Actually, you know, i get off on thinking about how so much of our everyday ethically motivated behaviour isn't all it's cracked up to be but just more of ye olde vicious cycle: contact, feeling, craving, clinging, etc., sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair - so at least let me apologize for hiding behind colette. lol, you know how we die-hard junkies are when it comes to working any "12 step program" - but what else is there? peace. #103362 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:57 am Subject: Re: Vipassana while watching TV vs Sila #7 truth_aerator Dear Chuch, all, >"charlest" wrote: > > > >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" > wrote: > > > > Dear Chuck, all, > > > I do drink filtrated water, though for other purposes. > > > C: If it is commercially prepared filtered water, then living >being are killed in the process. No, I put tap water in special filter which filters it. I drink the filtered water. > Alex: > > Natural tendencies is to swap mosquitoes and kill insects whenever they become bothersome. This is natural instinct, "natural flow". > > > > To avoid doing it, is going against deeply ingrained habit. IMHO. > > ............................................................. > > > > C: To me, it simply is correct morality. To me it is much more than that. It also deals with restraint and mindfulness of (mostly) kaya and vaci door. > Alex: > > > NO NO NO! It is also a training in restraint of the unwholesome tendencies of the mind. It is restraint of unwholesome and ignorant tendencies of the body and speech door. It is very important! > > > > C: > > 1. I do not think I wrote it was not a training in restraint. > > 2. What do you mean by: > >It is restraint of unwholesome and ignorant tendencies of the body >and speech door. It is restraint of externalization of akusala. Before one can perfect mindfulness of mano door, one should perfect mindfulness of kaya and vaci door. > > 3. When you have the time, may I suggest a review of the Pali words sila, sikkha, sikkhapada, adhisila-sikkha, panca-sila, dasa-sila, atta-sila, kemesu micchacara, kama-tanha (-raga). > sila = morality, ethics, sikkhati = learns; trains oneself; practises. panca, dasa, attha = 5, 10, 8 kamesu micchacara = wrong behaviour in sensual (5 sense) desire. Includes sex and excessive watching TV. kama-tanha = craving for sensuality. > Alex: > > As netti says: > > > > 587: "The Blessed One makes one of blunt faculties understand by means of the training in the higher virtue." > > > > C: And, what does the above mean? That keeping Higher Virtue is how we (blunt types with little paramis) can understand Buddha's teaching and avoid bad kamma. So how does this reconcile with kamesu micchacara ? === Do you agree that it is important if one is serious about developing vipassana that we must avoid certain sense objects such as violent movies? Actually when vipassana is been developed it doesn't matter so much what object contacts the senses. It can all be insighted. If we watch a violent movie then it is conditioned already. While we watch there are namas (mental states) and rupas (physical states) arising and passing away continually. Looking at TV is the situation, the concept, but the realities are merely colour and seeing, sound and hearing, which depending on understanding or lack of it condition various perceptions and feelings which (along with colour, seeing, sound hearing) can be directly understood. http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html ========== with metta, Alex #103363 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:58 am Subject: Re: Is everything predetermined? scottduncan2 Dear Sarah (and Alex), A few thought regarding: A: "A person proposes and conditions disposes." Scott: This aphorism is, as I understand things, nonsensical. 'Person' is not paramattha dhamma, hence has neither characteristic nor function. What, then, is 'a person' - a concept with no reality - proposing? Does this 'person' and this 'proposal' create or control conditions? Not possible. 'Person' is a mere designation. Visuddhimagga XVIII, 24, (from a description of 'purification of view' or, I think, the first vipassanaa-~naa.na - naama-ruupa pariccheda-~naa.na): "...So, as one who opens a box with a knife, as one who splits a twin palmyra bulb in two, he defines all states of the three planes, the eighteen elements, twelve bases, five aggregates, in the double way as 'mentality-materiality', and he concludes that over and above mere mentality-materiality that is a being or a person or a deity or a Brahmaa." And, 31: "Therefore, just as the marionette is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interest, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the Ancients said: 'The mental and material are really here, But there is no human being to be found, For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll - Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.'" Scott: No curiosity. No interestedness. No free will. This view that 'a person proposes' is merely a description of a certain kind of thinking about the way things should work. No matter how one attempts to articulate them and justify them, these sorts of arguments always reflect a strong belief in Self. These sorts of arguments would have, at any cost, a Self that is able to do something at will. They do not at all demonstrate an understanding of anatta. This view is begging that there be free will. This view is desperate to be in control. This view is hungry for results and will think anything to satiate this hunger. This view demonstrates that anatta has not yet been understood intellectually. A: "A person (a citta to be precise) can make resolution and has a choice. However not everything depends on resolution itself. The inner and outer circumstances may thwart previously made resolution." Scott: 'Person' and citta are not synonymous. 'Person' is not real, whereas citta is. Citta has its characteristic and function and 'choice' is not included. To be precise, cetanaa, which is intention (and often misunderstood as being equivalent to a nexus of free will) is a cetasika. It is not citta. It arises conascently with citta, having its own characteristics and functions, as often discussed. The view would simply exchange 'person' for 'citta' and treat citta as if it had the same imaginary qualities wishful thinking attributes to 'person.' A: "...The deliberate and wise practice (which was often mentioned) depends on the appropriate effort and a certain set of conditions." Scott: Here there is an incorrect and arbitrary distinction being made to suit an argument that would suggest that something called 'appropriate effort' is somehow set apart from something else called 'a certain set of conditions.' This seems to suggest, in light of the above, that 'a person' is condition for 'appropriate effort' which then is supposed to somehow create 'a certain set of conditions.' 'Effort' would be a specific dhamma, with its own characteristic and function. To say 'a person proposes' is to suggest that mentality - in this case a thought - has 'power' it does not have. We are dealing with interdependent impersonal states, and concept is not included, since it is not paramattha dhamma. Visuddhimagga XVIII 34: "Furthermore, mentality has not efficient power, it cannot occur by its own efficient power. It does not eat, it does not drink, it does not speak, it does not adopt postures. And materiality is without efficient power; it cannot occur by its own efficient power. For it has no desire to eat, it has no desire to drink, it has no desire to speak, it has no desire to adopt postures. But rather when it is supported by materiality that mentality occurs; and it is when it is supported by mentality that materiality occurs. When mentality has the desire to eat, the desire to drink, the desire to speak, the desire to adopt a posture, it is materiality that eats, drinks, speaks and adopts a posture." Scott: And this is not be misunderstood to support the view that 'a person proposes' because 'person' is not 'mentality' in the sense meant above - not a 'state;' not a paramattha dhamma. Referring to realities (not concepts) Visuddhimagga XVIII 36: "Hence it is said: 'They cannot come to be by their own strength, Or yet maintain themselves by their own strength; Relying for support on other states, Weak in themselves, and formed, they come to be; They come to be with others as condition, They are aroused by others as their objects, They are produced by object and condition, And each by something other than itself.'" Sarah, please feel free to amend any of things I've said with which you disagree. Sincerely, Scott. #103364 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:03 am Subject: Re: Is everything predetermined? truth_aerator Dear Scott, Sarah, all, >, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Sarah (and Alex), > > A few thought regarding: > > A: "A person proposes and conditions disposes." > > Scott: This aphorism is, as I understand things, nonsensical. >'Person' is not paramattha dhamma, hence has neither characteristic >nor function. What, then, is 'a person' - a concept with no reality >- proposing? Does this 'person' and this 'proposal' create or >control conditions? Not possible. 'Person' is a mere designation. I spoke conventionally. What I've meant and hoped you would understand is "A process of momentary cittas wills and internal/external conditions either help or hinder." Again, I do NOT mean Atta that choses. I am talking about a conditional serial process of many citta that will to do this or that. The conditions may support or hinder whatever the cittas will. With metta, Alex #103365 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:14 am Subject: Anapanasat Satipatthana truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > Anapanasati start as samatha meditation, concentrating on fixing >the >mind on the counting etc. to reach access and absorption >(jhanas). I do not do this! Neither do the suttas and many modern teachers teach this! Furthermore, Anapanasati according to Ptsm is very insightful practice when it comes to seeing the rise and fall of citta. " Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single consciousness; By one who knows not these three things, Development is not obtained. Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single consciousness; By one who does know these three things, Development will be obtained." Ptsm 1.(.m1)[1] For one who develops the sixteen-based[2] respiration-mindfulness[3] concentration, more than two hundred kinds of knowledge arise, namely: I. 8 kinds of knowledge of obstacles, 8 kinds of knowledge of aids, II. 18 kinds of knowledge of imperfections, III. 13 kinds of knowledge of purification, IV. 32 kinds of knowledge of exercise of mindfulness, V. 24 kinds of knowledge through concentration, VI. 72 kinds of knowledge through insight, VII. 8 kinds of knowledge of revulsion, VIII. 8 kinds of knowledge in conformity with revulsion, IX. 8 kinds of knowledge of tranquillization of revulsion, X. 21 kinds of knowledge of the bliss of deliverance. http://bps.lk/bp_library/bp502s/bp502_part3.html#_ednref1 With metta, Alex #103366 From: "colette" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:47 am Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? Contra- Diction ksheri3 Good Morning charlest, you have found illumination from Ken H., et al, no problems. Now I'd like to focus on the measure that the moderators have chosen to apply here: > > > > Here, "empty" means empty of self. It does not mean empty of "own > > being" as some Mahayana texts try to tell us. The eye, for example, is > > empty of self, not of eye. > > "UNDIRSTRACTED BY THE FORMELSS: In the Waking state, thought patterns can be troubling. In the Dreaming state, they can form trains of thoughts that seem to drag you around. Howevever, imagine that you could observe your thought patterns when they were not active, when they were in a latent, sleeping form, while you were awake. Then they would not disturb or distract you. This is what happens in Yoga Nidra. The paradox is that while they are not in active form, they are sitll there. This can be frustrating to try to concep;tualize, but this is as close as we can get, to jmust say they are in a formless form." http://www.swami.com/yoga-nidra.htm Admit that things exist without your cognition. Here, this swami states that these things are "latent" while I say that these things are "DORMENT" as if they were a sleeping moth giving birth to SILK. Latent thoughts and latent samskaras are the same as dorment thoughts and dorment samskaras. They are both there. They are both waiting to become active, which tells the use of words in the paragraph as "latent" opposing "dorment", but using "active" instead of "passive" is a better choice, in my methodology. So you see, the choice of words actually does have an effect on the outcome of the procedure. you, in your acceptance of the doctrine, are focusing on a single aspect of the broad meaning of Shunyata. Shunyata applies to everything and cannot be restrained or put inside of a Great Wall which can give the few people riches who hold the meaning BECAUSE THE MEANING CANNOT BE HELD, IT IS VAST AND ALL INCLUSIVE. YOU CANNOT, in your tiny little prison cell of Caste System pick and choose what you want to be included in the meaning of Shunyata. This is an AGGREGATE terminology which cannot be constrained. I have complete faith in the Abhidharma and, from what I've seen, in the entire Buddhist system of rationality. No questions arise as to the applicability, HOWEVER, we get into the problems that occur between this conflict ofr PALI and SANSKRIT, and if ya want to add fuel to the fire, then we get into this conflict that exists to transfer the EASTERN PHILOSOPHY/PSYCHOLOGY to the Western PHILOSOPY/PSYCHOLOGY. Major problems arise in the transferance between the East to the West. Aren't we lucky to have Nina willing to translate for us and for others, in this aspect, THANK YOU NINA. Now isn't it odd that I quoted a "Swami" who is Hindu and not Buddhist? On the surface it may be odd but it is completely applicable since the Buddha came from a brahman caste in India and transposed his wisdom to the concept of Buddhism. Now, you, the individual, will have to decide weather or not that which is transposed is TANTRA or NOT TRANTRA. Then you will have to decide what Tantra is and what Tantra is not. Thus you will have to go back to the Buddha's actual foundation to discover these meanings. Not easy is it? <...> TOODLES, COLETTE #103367 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:19 am Subject: Re: Is everything predetermined? scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "I spoke conventionally. What I've meant and hoped you would understand is 'A process of momentary cittas wills and internal/external conditions either help or hinder.' Again, I do NOT mean Atta that choses. I am talking about a conditional serial process of many citta that will to do this or that. The conditions may support or hinder whatever the cittas will." Scott: I'd rather not engage you in this, Alex. You've not had enough time to consider the post. You've just quickly reiterated your position, with which I totally disagree. You do not understand anatta. Sincerely, Scott. #103368 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Without the Walls (Cy 38-39), OBSCURATIONS 101, TYRANNY, ... upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 12/12/2009 11:40:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: dear Howard, c:> i'm afraid that in terms of colette's #103302, I'd have to say your defense of love & marriage would be another example of addicts' behaviour - sorry. --------------------------------------------- H:> Oh, that's okay, Connie. No need to be sorry. ;-) -------------------------------------------- connie: O, but i like to! ;) I just mean sorry for any offense in the way I say things. Actually, you know, i get off on thinking about how so much of our everyday ethically motivated behaviour isn't all it's cracked up to be but just more of ye olde vicious cycle: contact, feeling, craving, clinging, etc., sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair - so at least let me apologize for hiding behind colette. lol, you know how we die-hard junkies are when it comes to working any "12 step program" - but what else is there? peace =============================== Hey, ya know? It just occurred to me to wonder whether anyone ever thought to jokingly refer to Dhamma practice as an "8 step program"! ;-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103369 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:28 am Subject: Effort. truth_aerator >--- "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "I spoke conventionally. What I've meant and hoped you would understand is 'A process of momentary cittas wills and internal/external conditions either help or hinder.' > Again, I do NOT mean Atta that choses. I am talking about a conditional serial process of many citta that will to do this or that. > The conditions may support or hinder whatever the cittas will." > > Scott: I'd rather not engage you in this, Alex. You've not had enough time to consider the post. You've just quickly reiterated your position, with which I totally disagree. You do not understand anatta. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Dear Scott, all, I believe that series of cittas CAN exert chanda, viriya, and adhimokkho. These 3 of 6 pakinnaka qualities are not themselves unwholesome or accompanied with wrong views. Buddha has often talked about heroic warrior effort and figuratuive "hand-to-hand combat" with kilesas. So it doesn't seem to suggest a an effortless practice. Effort (viriya) is effort. Effortless effort is impossible and defeats the purpose of being called "effort" or "right effort". With metta, Alex #103370 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:04 am Subject: "Be here now" & present moment awareness truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, If only paramattha dhamma and present moment exists, then how can we be aware of anything else? What is present moment awareness? p1) If present moment is all there is, then it is impossible to be in not-present moment (future or the past). p2) If every citta is aware/conscious, aware/conscious of something, then it is impossible not to be aware. p3) If the present moment & paramattha dhammas are all that exist then it seems to follow that: "All of us [even non-Buddhist and worms], all the conscious times, are aware of the paramattha dhamma happening". Then how come not all people or sentient beings, become awakened? With metta, Alex #103371 From: "connie" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:30 am Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 38-39), OBSCURATIONS 101, TYRANNY, ... nichiconn dear Howard, H: Hey, ya know? It just occurred to me to wonder whether anyone ever thought to jokingly refer to Dhamma practice as an "8 step program"! ;-) c: I think they seriously do - or even a 3-step: virtue, concentration, wisdom - like it's more of a step-by-step line dance rather than a circular waltz. Guess i'd agree as far as leading off with right view, though. peace, connie #103372 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:04 am Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? Contra- Diction dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Good Morning charlest, > C: Good morning to you as well. Colette: > you have found illumination from Ken H., et al, no problems. C: Warm thanks for the confirmation. > Colette: > Now I'd like to focus on the measure that the moderators have chosen to apply here: > > > > > > > Here, "empty" means empty of self. It does not mean empty of "own > > > being" as some Mahayana texts try to tell us. The eye, for example, is > > > empty of self, not of eye. > > > > > "UNDIRSTRACTED BY THE FORMELSS: In the Waking state, thought patterns can be troubling. In the Dreaming state, they can form trains of thoughts that seem to drag you around. Howevever, imagine that you could observe your thought patterns when they were not active, when they were in a latent, sleeping form, while you were awake. Then they would not disturb or distract you. This is what happens in Yoga Nidra. The paradox is that while they are not in active form, they are sitll there. This can be frustrating to try to concep;tualize, but this is as close as we can get, to jmust say they are in a formless form." > > http://www.swami.com/yoga-nidra.htm > > Admit that things exist without your cognition. > > Here, this swami states that these things are "latent" while I say that these things are "DORMENT" as if they were a sleeping moth giving birth to SILK. > C: Warm thanks for the quote and reference. However, I have enough of a problem distinquishing between Theravada and Mahayana. Hence, I will not comment on the swami opinions. FWIW, some years ago, I studied the word, kamma (Skt: karma). What did I learn? I learned many of us use the same word; but, many of us have different definitions for the same word. For example, one would think the Buddhist, Hindu, and Jains would have the same definition of kamma. Nope!!! Colette: > Latent thoughts and latent samskaras are the same as dorment thoughts and dorment samskaras. They are both there. They are both waiting to become active, which tells the use of words in the paragraph as "latent" opposing "dorment", but using "active" instead of "passive" is a better choice, in my methodology. > > So you see, the choice of words actually does have an effect on the outcome of the procedure. > > you, in your acceptance of the doctrine, are focusing on a single aspect of the broad meaning of Shunyata. Shunyata applies to everything and cannot be restrained or put inside of a Great Wall which can give the few people riches who hold the meaning BECAUSE THE MEANING CANNOT BE HELD, IT IS VAST AND ALL INCLUSIVE. YOU CANNOT, in your tiny little prison cell of Caste System pick and choose what you want to be included in the meaning of Shunyata. This is an AGGREGATE terminology which cannot be constrained. > C: Warm thanks for your opinions. Colette: > I have complete faith in the Abhidharma and, from what I've seen, in the entire Buddhist system of rationality. No questions arise as to the applicability, HOWEVER, we get into the problems that occur between this conflict ofr PALI and SANSKRIT, and if ya want to add fuel to the fire, then we get into this conflict that exists to transfer the EASTERN PHILOSOPHY/PSYCHOLOGY to the Western PHILOSOPY/PSYCHOLOGY. > C: Agree on the first part; disagree on the second part. Colette: > Major problems arise in the transferance between the East to the West. C: Do not agree. Colette: Aren't we lucky to have Nina willing to translate for us and for others, in this aspect, THANK YOU NINA.. C: Agreed Colette: Now isn't it odd that I quoted a "Swami" who is Hindu and not Buddhist? On the surface it may be odd but it is completely applicable since the Buddha came from a brahman caste in India and transposed his wisdom to the concept of Buddhism. C: Meaning no disrespect to you; however, I do not care about the historic Buddha's background in the Indus Valley. BTW, are you sure the historic Buddha was of the Bramin caste (Aryan) and not of the native Indus Valley peoples? Colette: Now, you, the individual, will have to decide weather or not that which is transposed is TANTRA or NOT TRANTRA. C: Why? Colette: Then you will have to decide what Tantra is and what Tantra is not. C: Why? Colette: Thus you will have to go back to the Buddha's actual foundation to discover these meanings. C: Nope!!! I just study the Tipitaka. > > Not easy is it? <...> C: Perhaps to you. [smiles] > > TOODLES, > COLETTE > Warm thanks for your comments and opinions. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103373 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:46 am Subject: Re: Effort. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "I believe that series of cittas CAN exert chanda, viriya, and adhimokkho. These 3 of 6 pakinnaka qualities are not themselves unwholesome or accompanied with wrong views. Buddha has often talked about heroic warrior effort and figuratuive 'hand-to-hand combat' with kilesas. So it doesn't seem to suggest a an effortless practice. Effort (viriya) is effort. Effortless effort is impossible and defeats the purpose of being called 'effort' or 'right effort'." Scott: I really don't wish to continue this, Alex. This is the same thing you've been saying for months and I just don't agree with you. I don't see you as grasping anatta. Again, you use 'a series of cittas' as you would use 'I' and thus do not understand. You seek a loop-hole in anatta whereas anatta is absolutely foundational. There's no getting around it. Viriya is a cetasika. Cetasikas aren't 'directed' by citta. They perform their functions as they arise conascent with citta, which has its own function. I'll leave this to others to discuss with you, so please allow me to withdraw from this discussion. Sincerely, Scott. #103374 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Be here now" & present moment awareness upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - Let me butt in with my perspective. Let me say just once, in advance, that what I write is just my opinion and perspective. I won't in each case say "It seems to me." In a message dated 12/12/2009 1:04:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Nina, all, If only paramattha dhamma and present moment exists, then how can we be aware of anything else? -------------------------------------------------------- What are examples of the "else" you are referring to? Houses? Trees? The United Nations organization? Other that thinking about these, how have you interacted with them? Do see a house or just a series of structured, interrelated sights from which a pattern is culled out by thinking? Do you observe a tree, or is there just a host of sights, sounds, and smells that you observe, upon which thinking operates and is summed up by "tree"? For that matter, do you smell an odor - and this is where I lose the Abhidhammikas - that occurs without any alteration during an interval of fixed duration or even zero-duration, or, is there an ever-changing river of experience, with similar quality throughout but never exactly the same, and merely conceived of as a single dhamma? It seems to me that all our separations are artificial and imposed by thinking. We never see reality as it is, until we awaken. As for only the present moment existing, for sure the past is gone, the future only imagined, and the present fully ungraspable except as a thought construct. Reality doesn't proceed in staccato "moments," but as an ungraspable stream without division, with even "the present moment," a mind-engendered fiction from the ultimate perspective. --------------------------------------------------------- What is present moment awareness? p1) If present moment is all there is, then it is impossible to be in not-present moment (future or the past). ------------------------------------------------------------ All the time, at whatever time, we call it "the present moment." But change occurs, and that requires passage of time; it requires a streaming. ---------------------------------------------------------- p2) If every citta is aware/conscious, aware/conscious of something, then it is impossible not to be aware. ---------------------------------------------------------- It is impossible for there ever to be a gap in mentality, but much of the time the mentality is subliminal, below the level of conscious awareness. ---------------------------------------------------------- p3) If the present moment & paramattha dhammas are all that exist then it seems to follow that: "All of us [even non-Buddhist and worms], all the conscious times, are aware of the paramattha dhamma happening". ------------------------------------------------------------- No one is aware of a paramattha dhamma in the sense of a discrete "object particle," in reality, for such is just a conventional construct. But the stream of experience is ongoing, flowing on and on, now rising, now sinking, now consciously beheld, now subliminally, and it is all played out "on the stage of mind." --------------------------------------------------------- Then how come not all people or sentient beings, become awakened? ----------------------------------------------------------- Because we live in a thought-constructed prison of our own making, a fiction, and we are so in love with this prison of fictiousness, that we don't make any proper effort at pushing open the cell door which isn't even locked. ---------------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ================================= With metta, Howard THAT /There is but one reality: Unconditioned, timeless, boundless, seamless, and luminous. Some, the theistic mystics, call it "God". Some, the Mahayanists, call it "Dharmadhatu". As it is, it is nibbana. As it is misperceived, it is samsara, the appearance realm of separate things, the Hassidic "world of lies". Its realization is our awakening, the end of suffering, ultimate happiness, and perfect peace./ (Anonymous) #103375 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:59 pm Subject: Re: Effort. truth_aerator Dear Scott, KenH, Nina, All, > "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Viriya is a cetasika. Cetasikas aren't 'directed' by citta. Viriya arises with certain kinds of citta. Those kinds of citta can be affected by preceding cittas. >They perform their functions as they arise conascent with citta, >which has its own function. So what does this alter? Effort produces effort. "Effort" that isn't "effort" should be called something else. In the suttas Buddha very often talked quite forcefully about effort. His similes and the pali grammar (active present verbs, etc) DOES suggest very forceful practice at times. For example The victorious warrior simile "Then there is the warrior who can handle the cloud of dust, the top of the enemy's banner, the tumult, & the hand-to-hand combat. On winning the battle, victorious in battle, he comes out at the very head of the battle. Some warriors are like this. This is the fifth type of warrior who can be found existing in the world." "This [awakening], for him, is victory in the battle. - AN 5.75 Simile of Effort for Awakening here is "like effort of a warrior in hand-to-hand combat and all the battles". One is to develop effort like one's head was on fire to eliminate unwholesome qualities (AN 6.20). One should exert even to the point of tears (AN 4.5). One should have the resolution "Let my flesh and blood dries up, but I will not move until awakening" . One should "he does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence." MN2 "If evil, unskillful thoughts imbued with desire, aversion or delusion still arise ... then with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness." - mn20 That doesn't imply passive "just naturally happens" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.075.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html With metta, Alex #103376 From: A T Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:16 pm Subject: Multiple mental states happening at a time? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, As you know, consciousness (viññÄ?ṇa) cannot occur without conascent feeling (vedanÄ?), perception (saññÄ?) and volition(saá¹…khÄ?ra). Lets say there is eye-consciousness. Exactly at that time there is eye-vedanÄ?. Eye-consciousness cannot occur without eye-vedanÄ? being present as well. Right? VedanÄ? is universal cetasika, and citta (viññÄ?ṇa) always occurs with universal cetasikas. What Ä?yatana is eye-consciousness and what Ä?yatana is eye-vedanÄ?? eye-consciousness is manÄ?yatana and eye-vedanÄ? is dhammÄ?yatana. So it means that at least four Ä?yatana are simultaneously present - cakkhuÄ?yatana + rÅ«pÄ?yatana and manÄ?yatana + dhammÄ?yatana (feeling and perception of the eye, etc) . If we analyze by 18 dhÄ?tu, then we have: cakkhudhÄ?tu+ rÅ«padhÄ?tu and cakkhuviññÄ?ṇa dhÄ?tu + dhammadhÄ?tu ManoviññÄ?ṇadhÄ?tu + cakkhuviññÄ?ṇa dhÄ?tu (one consciousness) + dhammadhÄ?tu (another mental object which includes conascent rÅ«pa-saññÄ?, eye-vedanÄ?, etc) In other words, considering that x-viññÄ?ṇa never happens without x-vedanÄ?, x-saññÄ?, etc it means that at least two mental states/objects occur manÄ?yatana + dhammÄ?yatana or ManodhÄ?tu + cakkhuviññÄ?ṇadhÄ?tu + dhammadhÄ?tu = ManoviññÄ?ṇadhÄ?tu With metta, Alex #103377 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:50 pm Subject: Re: Effort. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "...In the suttas Buddha very often talked quite forcefully about effort. His similes and the pali grammar (active present verbs, etc) DOES suggest very forceful practice at times.That doesn't imply passive 'just naturally happens.'" Scott: Geez, I just can't stop myself. ;-) You have yet to understand this, Alex. There is absolutely no doubt that 'very forceful practice,' for you, is a pure belief in the motive power of a Self, no matter how you fudge it. You can learn more Paa.li, read Abhidhamma all you want, and it all simply seems to get bent to fit the view that expresses you - and it is wrong. Even your repetitive use of the term 'passive' shows this, for who is active? What doesn't simply arise due to conditions which no one can control? The 'passive/active' dichotomy you repeatedly bring up is absolutely irrelevant, except in that it demonstrates that for you, it is a Self that is at the heart of your concerns, since what else could be too passive or active enough? No, I am certain that you have not understood this. And, while I'm at it, you persistently misrepresent the deep implications of anatta by the inaccurate paraphrase 'just naturally happens.' You wish to imply some sort of laziness, or moral laxity, or hippy laissez-faire to the holders of such a view. This is simply and totally missing the point. In your zeal to force yourself to 'comply' with the Dhamma, to suppress your impulses, or to act like a monk, many dhammas are arising and falling away. Are they known yet? Things do happen 'naturally' - by conditions and these 'things' are conditioned dhammas. I hate to tell you, but you don't make anything happen, Alex, no matter how hard you imagine yourself to be trying. Sincerely, Scott. #103378 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:54 pm Subject: Shaking off all Evil... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How to live the ideal Bhikkhu Life! The Buddha once explained how: Listen well Bhikkhus, I will explain to you the very way to shake off all evil! Let the one who sees the goal & is thoughtful cultivate only that behaviour, which is advantageous for those who have gone forth: One should wander to the village at the right time early in the morning, since attractions attach easily to the one wandering at the wrong time... Forms, sounds and tastes, smells and touches, which drive beings mad, dispelling all desire for these captivating things, he should enter for his morning meal at the right time... Having received early alms-food, having returned alone, he should sit down in solitude. Thinking of internal things, he should not let his mind go outside, having his body well-constrained. If he should converse with any disciple, or anyone else, then he should speak only about the outstanding doctrine, and never slander, nor blame any other! Those of little wisdom will fight against any argument: We do not praise them, since they scatter their minds there! Having heard the Dhamma taught by the Well-Gone-One, a disciple who has excellent intelligence, will wisely reflect, and therefore resort to alms-food, and a remote silent habitation, since to simple alms-food, lodging, and water for removing dirt from his outer robe, to such frugal necessities any really wise bhikkhu cannot cling, like a drop of water not clinging to a lotus leaf... Sn 385-392 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Shaking off all Evil... #103379 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:10 pm Subject: Re: Effort. truth_aerator Dear Scott, all, > "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > >A: "...In the suttas Buddha very often talked quite forcefully about >effort. His similes and the pali grammar (active present verbs, etc) >DOES suggest very forceful practice at times.That doesn't imply >passive 'just naturally happens.'" > > Scott: Geez, I just can't stop myself. ;-) You have yet to >understand this, Alex. There is absolutely no doubt that 'very >forceful practice,' for you, is a pure belief in the motive power of >a Self, no matter how you fudge it. Why can't impersonal citta (or stream of citta) exercise impersonal function of effort (viriya), resolution (adhimokkho), (wholesome) wish (chando)? >Even your repetitive use of the term 'passive' shows this, for who >is active? Not "for whom?" but "for what?" Big difference. For impersonal stream of citta there may be passivity (thinamiddha) or activity (viriya, chanda, adhimokkho, etc). >What doesn't simply arise due to conditions which no one can >control? The 'passive/active' dichotomy Citta can have effort (viriya), resolution (adhimokkho), (wholesome) wish chando. It can also have sloth & torpor (thinamiddha) With metta, Alex #103380 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:38 pm Subject: Re: Effort. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "Why can't impersonal citta (or stream of citta) exercise impersonal function of effort (viriya), resolution (adhimokkho), (wholesome) wish (chando)?" Scott: Alex, you want to phrase things this way simply to be able to persist in your belief in the efficacy of self-directed practice. By 'stream of citta' you simply mean Self. Your question amounts to 'Why cant I exercise effort, resolution, and wish?' And it is so totally apparent that this is what you hope to be able to believe. You can't do it because you are conceptual and concepts have no power, except as objects I guess which can condition wrong view. Me: "Even your repetitive use of the term 'passive' shows this, for who is active?" A: "Not 'for whom?' but 'for what?' Big difference." Scott: Alex, you've misunderstood: Who is active? No one is active. That you think 'someone' can be active for some reason ('for what') then it is clear you have missed the boat and are firmly in possession of a strong belief in Self. A: "For impersonal stream of citta there may be passivity (thinamiddha) or activity (viriya, chanda, adhimokkho, etc)." Scott: Cetasikas. Each with characteristic and function. Which arise with citta, fall away with citta, and take the same object as citta. We are always dealing with this moment of consciousness. And again, you are fudging and using the term 'impersonal stream of citta' and by this simply mean to deflect the reader away from the fact that you mean Self. A: "Citta can have effort (viriya), resolution (adhimokkho), (wholesome) wish chando. It can also have sloth & torpor (thinamiddha)" Scott: No, this is clearly where you are continually misunderstanding things, Alex. When any mental factor arises with citta, the characteristic and function of that particular dhamma has influence over that particular moment of consciousness in relation to its particular and momentary object. Citta doesn't 'have' anything. This is where you simply misuse the term citta to mean Self - someone who has this or that or does this or that with what it has. Sincerely, Scott. #103381 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:32 pm Subject: Mind door scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, I've been studying the first level of vipassanaa-~naa.na, listening as well to discussions with Kh. Sujin bearing on the subject. Would you mind giving a sort of thumbnail sketch of what it means to have the mind-door become evident after it's being covered by the sense-doors? Sincerely, Scott. #103382 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:33 pm Subject: Re: Effort. truth_aerator Dear Scott, all, > "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > >A: "Why can't impersonal citta (or stream of citta) exercise >impersonal function of effort (viriya), resolution (adhimokkho), >(wholesome) wish (chando)?" > > Scott: Alex, you want to phrase things this way simply to be able >to persist in your belief in the efficacy of self-directed practice. I believe that actions have results and causes produce effects. This is basic Dhamma. The teaching of "nothing can be done" is akin to ahetuvadin heretical teachings. It is funny that in our discussions it is you who keeps talking about Self and accusing me of harboring in the closet Self views. > By 'stream of citta' you simply mean Self. I mean stream of impersonal cittas following cause and effect. The translation of "stream of citta = Self", is your opinion. >Your question amounts to 'Why cant I exercise effort, resolution, >and wish?' No. What I mean is "why IMPERSONAL citta cannot exercise cetasiaks of effort, resolution & wish". These cetasikas do exist! There are part of 6 Pakinnaka cetasikas that CAN follow wholesome cetasikas. And it is so totally apparent that this is what you hope to be able to believe. You can't do it because you are conceptual and concepts have no power, except as objects I guess which can condition wrong view. > Is viriya cetasika conceptual or ultimate? Is chanda cetasika conceptual or ultimate? Is adhimokkho cetasika conceptual? or ultimate > Me: "Even your repetitive use of the term 'passive' shows this, for who is active?" > > A: "Not 'for whom?' but 'for what?' Big difference." > >Scott: Alex, you've misunderstood: Who is active? No one is >active. That is what I've said by saying "not for whom, but for what?". Who implies a person. What implies a process. I was dealing with process, not person belief. >Scott: That you think 'someone' Something (not, "someone"!), a conditioned process of namarupa. Not a Being or an Ego. With metta, Alex #103383 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:47 pm Subject: Re: Effort. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "I believe that actions have results and causes produce effects. This is basic Dhamma. The teaching of 'nothing can be done' is akin to ahetuvadin heretical teachings." Scott: I really don't mind how often you bring up the heresy thing, Alex. You continue to misunderstand anatta. As I'll mention at the sign off, I'll discontinue discussing after these final comments. A: "...No. What I mean is 'why IMPERSONAL citta cannot exercise cetasiaks of effort, resolution & wish'. These cetasikas do exist! There are part of 6 Pakinnaka cetasikas that CAN follow wholesome cetasikas. Scott: And here is where you continue to misunderstand. Citta does not have a function of 'exercising cetasikas.' You are making this up and, as I've noted, this demonstrates the way in which you simply mean Self when you write 'impersonal citta.' You think citta can do something rather than knowing that citta is simply what it does - which has nothing to do with 'exercising cetasikas.' Last word to you, Alex. I'm finished here. Sincerely, Scott. #103384 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:17 pm Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? dhammasaro Good friend Ken H, et al Warm thanks for the clarification on ajahn Thanissaro's translation. metta (maitri), Chuck --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > --- > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.085.than.html > > > > Do you all agree it is applicable in this discussion? > > > ---- > > Yes, spot on! > > Here, "empty" means empty of self. It does not mean empty of "own > being" as some Mahayana texts try to tell us. The eye, for example, is > empty of self, not of eye. > > BTW, one big problem with the translation you have linked us to is the > use of the word "ideas" in this context (an idiosyncrasy of Thanissaro > B). Ideas are concepts and, therefore, do not have inherent > characteristics. They do not have the anatta characteristic. They are > not "empty." > > Ken H > #103385 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:56 pm Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Ken H, et al > > Warm thanks for the clarification on ajahn Thanissaro's translation. > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > > - Hi Chuck, Glad you appreciated it. In DSG's Useful Posts file there are several posts that you really should read. They are under the heading: Anatta3 -ATI, No-self?, Non-self?, Not-self? Thanissaro Bhikkhu's take.. Ken H #103386 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:43 pm Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: #103385 > ................... Good friend Ken I did a quick check and did not locate the subject posts. However, I shall return and do a more thorough search. On ajahn Thanissaro, I have read many of his commentaries/translations and listen to many of his Dhamma talks over the years. Some two years ago, I very briefly met him at Wat Bovonieves in Bangkok. He was on his was to Singapore. Perhaps, I will visit his monastery in California. Warm thanks for the suggestions. metta (maitri), Chuck #103387 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- On Sun, 13/12/09, scottduncan2 wrote: >I've been studying the first level of vipassanaa-~ naa.na, listening as well to discussions with Kh. Sujin bearing on the subject. Would you mind giving a sort of thumbnail sketch of what it means to have the mind-door become evident after it's being covered by the sense-doors? ... S: Yes, we've all found this confusing at times and it's a good question. What I understand her to mean is that now it seems as if we see and hear and experience through the senses all the time or for long periods of time. For example, we think we're experiencing light most of the day. In fact, the world is only light at the brief moments when visible objects is experienced. The rest of the time, there's no light at all. The same applies to sound or with regard to tangible objects. We may think that painful (bodily) feelings last a long time, when really the painful feeling is just a very, very brief moment of vipaka at the moment of experiencing a tangible object. In other words, we're very influenced by sense objects and it seems that they're being experienced most of the time. In fact, as we know, there is just one sense door process of cittas followed by many, many mind-door processes of cittas. When there is more understanding of different namas and rupas, the dhammas experienced through the mind-door are revealed. At the first stage of insight, these namas and rupas are clearly distinguished (in the mind-door) and the sense-door (processes) no longer cover up the mind-door (processes). Hope the 'thumbnail sketch' suffices, but let me know if not. Metta Sarah ======= #103388 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Alex), --- On Sun, 13/12/09, scottduncan2 wrote: >Scott: No curiosity. No interestedness. No free will. >This view that 'a person proposes' is merely a description of a certain kind of thinking about the way things should work. No matter how one attempts to articulate them and justify them, these sorts of arguments always reflect a strong belief in Self. These sorts of arguments would have, at any cost, a Self that is able to do something at will. They do not at all demonstrate an understanding of anatta. This view is begging that there be free will. This view is desperate to be in control. This view is hungry for results and will think anything to satiate this hunger. This view demonstrates that anatta has not yet been understood intellectually. <...> >Sarah, please feel free to amend any of things I've said with which you disagree. .... Sarah: I think all your comments are spot on - nothing I'd amend at all and the para above summarises beautifully. The entire message is helpful for us all to reflect on, thank you! People will read any suttas about abandoning evil, cultivating good with an idea of a "Doer". People will even listen to K.Sujin's Thai series on Conditions, Cetasikas, Perfections and come back year after year or week after week with questions about how they can have more sati or do this or that. The ideas of atta are very deeply embedded whatever words we use or read. When I hear such comments or questions, sometimes there are conditions for compassion and patience, sometimes for impatience, conceit or other kilesa. Again, it all comes back to the present citta, the present dhamma appearing now... Metta Sarah ====== #103389 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need your help sarahprocter... Dear Dinesh, --- On Fri, 11/12/09, Dinesh Kularathne wrote: I’m an absolute beginner of Abhidhamma. Please help me by answering my following question. What is the citta that arises in one’s mind when he/she thinks, “money is everythingâ€? ... S: It would either be a citta with moha (ignorance) or a citta with ditthi (wrong view) of one kind of other. It seems like ditth-upadana - clinging with wrong view. (Of course, there is also moha with such cittas too). ... >(or when he/she thinks, “Colour of that vase is redâ€?)? ... S: This is more difficult - it may be with wrong view, it may be with ignorance without any view involved, or it may just be a sammuti sacca (conventional truth) observation which even an ariyan who has eradicated all wrong view might make. Even the Buddha still knew what a vase was, what was red, what name was given to it, but without any ignorance. We can see from these examples that it's impossible to judge the citta by the other appearance or situation. This is why only awareness and understanding can know at any moment what kind of citta it is. Thx for your good questions. Metta Sarah ====== #103390 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Very happy to join the group sarahprocter... Dear Dinesh, --- On Fri, 11/12/09, Dinesh wrote: >Thank you so much for your warm welcome and the prompt reply. [Yes, Sarah, I'm a different Dinesh :-); I hail from Colombo (Sri Lanka)]. ... S: Thanks for letting us know. If the other Dinesh reappears, we'll have to add a 'K' to your name:). We've had a few active members from Sri Lanka here over the years. Jon and I met in your lovely country and we've been back a few times since. Let's hope the peace lasts. Thx for also telling us you're in Melbourne....Many Aussies here.... Jon's from Adelaide originally. ... >I'll be more than happy to share whatever the useful stuff I find with my fellow group members. And I very much appreciate your willingness to help me. Hope start forwarding my questions and comments soon. ... S: Glad to see you've made a good start and I was very interested to read that you'd been through most the archives and listened to many of the audio files. Hardly an Abhi beginner after all that....:-)) Nina will be very glad to meet you as well when she gets back after a few days holiday. Metta Sarah ======= #103391 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] speed of citta sarahprocter... Hi pt (& Herman), --- On Wed, 9/12/09, Herman wrote: >>pt: This is an illusion due to lack of training in listening - if you were a piano tuner for example, you'd be trained to perceive the harmonics that constitute a complex tone when you press a key on your piano ( or was it organ), i.e. in that same tone, you'd be able to perceive the sound <...> H:>I have added a new photo to a section called piano tuners. Feel free to have a look. The truck was mine. The person in the cabin of the truck is not me, it is my son, more than 20 years ago. ... S: That was a pretty good answer:-))* pt, Herman is/was also an organ player in Bathurst, NSW. Metta Sarah *Now in 'Significant Others' folder... ======== #103392 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known sarahprocter... Hi Ken O (& Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >> But during the javana process it could be different between two persons, > >> some people may like hot while others may like cold. There is the > >> difference but characteritistic are the same for the rupa. > >> > > > >I will await to read your reasonings behind these assertions. ... S: As you said, there is a difference in accumulations which manifests during the javana process - we all have different preferences and so on. It depends on past kamma what rupa is experienced. We may all be sitting in an air-conditioned room, but it depends on kamma as to what rupa is experienced through the body-sense and other sense doors. At each moment, the rupa experienced is different, even though pathavi dhatu is always pathavi dhatu and so on. ... > > KO: This is base on Abhidhamma explanation, our lobha and dosa over an object only arise in the javana process and not in the arisen of the five sense door cittas. This is because the sense citta is weak during its presence. There is no energy cetasika during its arisen. ... S: As I think Nina commented, javana cittas arise in sense door as well as mind door processes. There can be attachment arising in any process. Perhaps you are referring to when cittas condition rupas? Also, you may be referring to the fact that viriya cetasika doesn't arise with the dvi panca vinnana cittas of seeing, hearing and so on? Metta Sarah p.s Thanks for introducing the helpful new series and for all your useful comments and quotes. ============== #103393 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) sarahprocter... Dear pt, #102528 On samatha and vipassana bhavana... my further reflections only.... Thx for your further reflections and the discussion. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > I've been considering your reply on samatha. Here's what I have to say so far: > > > S: We agree then that any kind of bhavana, as far as "kusala and understanding" are concerned, refers to cittas, not to "formal" or "informal" practices. > > pt: Yes, if we're speaking on the ultimate level. .... S: ...and ultimately, there is only "the ultimate level". The rest is either an illusion or a matter of conventional explanation only. ... >Though I think most misunderstandings about "formal" vs "informal" practices happen on the conventional levels - different people invest different meanings in those concepts. ... S: That's why we need to stick to the ultimate level:-). ... > > > S: If we consider the kinds and levels of concentration and panna, what is it that distinguishes moments of samatha/vipassana bhavana from other moments if not the kusala qualities and accompanying understanding? For example, a trapeeze performer or a bank robber have high degrees of concentration and skill, don't they? On the other hand, there may be many moments of samatha and panna in our day, such as when showing kindness to others and understanding the value of such metta, as opposed to its near and far enemies, with a far weaker level of concentration. > > pt: Agreed. But I wonder, can "many moments of samatha and panna in our day" lead to jhana? Or is something extra needed for developing jhana? .... S: It is the development of samatha (with panna, of course) which leads to jhana. Jhana means the burning of attachment to sense objects. If there is no development of understanding of the harm of attachment now, no development of detachment and calm now, then there won't be any development. At moments of wanting to develop jhana or wanting to focus on an object, there is no detachment, no calm as I see it. ... > > S: In my opinion, there's far too much talk about access and absorption concentration when we don't even understand what samatha is, what kusala cittas are, what momentary wholesome calm is. Just concentrating on an object, such as the breath, while keeping still, hoping for access or absorption is bound to be with very strong attachment, isn't it? > > pt: > Well, yes and no. In the beginning, sure, mostly akusala, but we have the capacity to learn/understand (panna!), so I think for most - these mistakes help to learn and tell the difference between kusala and akusala. It's almost impossible to start with kusala and keep it only kusala, but easy to start with akusala and see the problems of it (with a little help from wise friends), and understanding the problems then naturally leads to kusala. .... S: Now, I know why I didn't reply before:-) Again, I think it all comes back to the present moment. If we concentrate on the breath now, hoping for access or absorption, what kind of cittas are involved? Is it kusala or akusala now? If it's akusala, there's no use in thinking that it may condition kusala later. This would be wishful thinking, more akusala. We can just agree to disagree on this point if you like. .... > > S: As I understand them, both kinds of bhavana [pt: samatha and vipassana] rely not on concentration, but on understanding. > > pt: > Agreed, though I think it would be just as useful to know what differentiates samatha and vipassana. ... S: There is samatha (calm) at each moment of kusala, whether dana, sila or bhavana. When there is an understanding of what is kusala and what is akusala, the samatha can grow and (right) concentration begins to manifests. Without the development of vipassana, however, there is no understanding of realities as anatta. The object of samatha bhavana is (usually) a concept. In the development of vipassana, the object is a reality. There is an understanding developing of the ti-lakkhana of such realities. Samatha is also developed with vipassana. They become 'yoked' together and the (right) concentration becomes apparent at stages of insight. ... <..> > > S: Yes, I agree. Kusala bhavana "can happen "in spite of" unwholesome habits". This is why we cannot judge the cittas from the situation, whether that be studying a text in Pali, sitting formally, exchanging friendly greetings or any other time. In other words, bhavana cannot be defined in terms of "formal" or "informal" practice, but only in terms of various kusala qualities, beginning with right understanding. Isn't this where we started?:-). > > pt: :) Yeah, I think we're just getting to understand what each means by "formal/informal" :) > > Perhaps it would help if you can explain your understanding of how exactly a person (a relative beginner) develops jhana in your understanding. So, not just how s/he develops samatha, which can happen with dry insight path as well, but how s/he develops actual jhana. Thanks. ... S: I would say that first of all, the "relative beginner" might as well forget all about jhana and all about enlightenment, for that matter. In other words, why don't we understand more about present realities such as seeing and visible object, calm and attachment as being conditioned? It's not a matter of any path being selected, it's a matter of understanding what appears now, including moments of dana, moments of metta, moments of kusala, akusala and calm. This is the way that all kinds of kusala will develop (according to accumulations), rather than determining on attaining jhana or an insight path, all with a mis-perceived idea of self that can do such determining. The beginning always comes back to the present reality. There's never anything else. All the wishing, trying and special focussing just hinders, as I see it. Metta Sarah ======== #103394 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta sarahprocter... Dear pt, #102526 on attachment, conceit and wrong view.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > S: Under the section on pathavi dhatu (earth element) in the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta, it gives examples of hair, nails, teeth and skin. > > > > For example, under the first one, simple craving, one might wish that one's hair was a different colour or texture or is attached to the way it is. > > > > Under conceit, on account of the beauty or ugliness of one's hair, there may be conceit, thinking it is superior, inferior or equal to someone else's. At that time, one is just comparing or even subtly judging another's hair-cut, for example, without comparing. There's no wrong idea of 'me' or 'someone' or 'a thing' at such a time. > > > > Under the wrong atta-view, the hair is taken as being part of one's body or jiiva (life-force). It is not understood as merely dhatus (elements), not belonging to anyone. At that moment of atta-di.t.thi, the hair itself is taken for being something. > > pt: > Yes, this seems straight-forward. Though, in real-life, to me it seems that I would never compare my hair to someone else's and then feel good if my hair was better, or hurt if my hair was worse, if there wasn't already the craving that the hair is mine with the wrong view that it's something that makes my "self' - so something worthy of comparison. I mean, if I was to compare hair of two different people, there would be no conceit, because none of it is mine (craving) nor my self (wrong view). ... S: I think that conceit can be a lot more subtle, prompted by attachment or finding of oneself as important, but not necessarily with any wrong view involved at all. For example, we might just read what someone says here or see the way someone dresses and just have a quick thought that it's not very tasteful without any obvious comparing. Behind our thought, however, is the idea that we'd have spoken/dressed better, but not necessarily any self-view involved at that moment. We might go into a restaurant and just make a mental judgment about the decor. Conceit is likely to be involved already. Of course, all these different kinds of attachment are closely entangled. We can't begin to imagined how subtle the conceit of an anagami must be before it's eradicated. Clearly no self-view involved, but quite unlike any of the relatively gross examples I've given too. ... > Perhaps they alternate quickly, i.e. there are a few moments of wrong view, and then very soon there are a few moments of conceit (both are lined with craving of course)? So, although they are different processes, they often arise in association/succession? .... S: Yes, I'm sure this is right, but only panna can tell when they arise, exactly what the reality is. I think craving is very, very common, conceit very common, with wrong view not arising so much in a day. For example, children whilst playing have plenty of attachment and conceit arising all the time, but very little if any wrong view because there's no thinking about the Truth or realities. The same applies to animals - just ignorance and attachment and conceit, but not wrong view. Metta Sarah ====== #103395 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:10 am Subject: "Hand to hand combat with kilesas" truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Scott, all, > sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Scott (& Alex), >People will read any suttas about abandoning evil, cultivating good >with an idea of a "Doer". Not necessarily. Doer implies Atta. Atta isn't to be found. All is conditioned. However, this doesn't deny that effort does happen, and "effortless" effort is impossible. The suttas often talk about arousing superhuman effort, as if one's hair is on fire, and to go into hand-to-hand combat with the kilesas, where on doesn't tolerate arisen kilesa and crushes & obliterates it, even if this means that "flesh & blood dries up...". The similes are quite forceful. Of course I do not take it as a Self who does. No. It is a process that occurs in such a way, but it does occur! With metta, Alex #103396 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >S: As you said, there is a difference in accumulations which manifests during the javana process - we all have different preferences and so on. It depends on past kamma what rupa is experienced. We may all be sitting in an air-conditioned room, but it depends on kamma as to what rupa is experienced through the body-sense and other sense doors. At each moment, the rupa experienced is different, even though pathavi dhatu is always pathavi dhatu and so on. KO: I thought I have already explain in the sound example. Ok again :-) CMA pg 238 << The fire element (tejodhatu) has the characterisitc of heat, its function is to mature or ripen other material phenomena, and it is manifested as a continuous supply of softness. Both heat and cold are modes in which fire experience is experience.>> Anyway hot and cold are just labelling of the different modes of heat. It is just heat :-) Dont go and worry whether the heat rupa is different from the next different. It does not help. Understanding it as just heat. If possible the characteristic, the conditions, classfication by base, by element, by feeling, by function, by aggregates, but dont try to hard to look at them or think too much of it. One may just be agitated or cling to them :-) >S: As I think Nina commented, javana cittas arise in sense door as well as mind door processes. There can be attachment arising in any process. Perhaps you are referring to when cittas condition rupas? Also, you may be referring to the fact that viriya cetasika doesn't arise with the dvi panca vinnana cittas of seeing, hearing and so on? KO: Yes :-) . Cheers Ken O #103398 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasat Satipatthana ashkenn2k Dear Alex The sutta describe different ways of breathing, short and long, experience the whole body. But there is fixing of the mind in breathing. When you fixed your mind on an object that is samatha meditation. Insight meditation is about understanding the characteristics and that is carried out after one attain absorption. I will try to give you some write up on the stanza on Ptsm you quoted. It is explain in the commentaries on the stanza using the simile of the saw. Now its very late, I need to sleep With metta Ken O #103399 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:55 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 5 ashkenn2k Dear all  We should consider whether we are people who are slow in understanding only as regards nÃ¥ma (mentality), only as regards rúpa (materiality) or as regards both nÃ¥ma and rúpa. If we are of slow understanding as regards both nÃ¥ma and rúpa we need to listen to the Dhamma very often, and we need to study different aspects of the teachings in detail. This is necessary in order to have right understanding of realities and to be able to cultivate all kinds of kusala. In this way there will be supporting conditions for satipaììhÃ¥na to arise and be aware of the characteristics of realities, just as they naturally appear in daily life.  The Abhidhammattha VibhÃ¥vanÃ(Book 8) distinguishes between six kinds of concepts that are names, nÃ¥mapaññatti (see Visuddhimagga VIII, note 11).  1. VijjamÃ¥na paññattis, concepts which make known what is real, for example the words rúpa, nÃ¥ma, vedanÃ¥ (feeling), or saññå (perception)10.  2. AvijjamÃ¥na paññattis, concepts which make known what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta and cetasika which are nÃ¥ma, and rúpa. Thai or foreigner are not real in the absolute sense, they are conventional realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala citta11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign? Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality), it is a dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai or foreign.  3. VijjamÃ¥nena avijjamÃ¥na paññattis, concepts of the non-existent based on the existent. There is the expression “the person with the six abhiññås.â€?12 The six abhiññås are real but person is not real. Thus this concept stands for what is real and for what is not real.  4. AvijjamÃ¥nena vijjamÃ¥na paññattis, concepts of the existent based on the non-existent. There is the expression “woman’s voiceâ€?. The sound is real, but the woman is not real.  5. VijjamÃ¥nena vijjamÃ¥na paññattis, concepts of what is real based on what is real. There is the term cakkhuviññåùa (eye-consciousness). Cakkhu (eye) is a reality, namely the cakkhu-pasÃ¥da-rúpa (eyesense, a reality sensitive to colour or visible object), and viññåùa (consciousness) is also a reality, namely the reality which experiences.  6. Avija amÃ¥nena avijjamÃ¥na paññattis, concepts of what is not real based on what is not real. There is the expression “the kings sonâ€?. Both king and son are not real, they are sammutti dhammas, conventional realities.  to be continued  Cheers Ken O