#103600 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friends all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: ... Good friend pt, I hope the excerpts are of use to you: In the Gopakamoggallaana Sutta a brahman asks the Venerable AAnanda whether there is a single monk who is completely endowed with all the qualities with which the Buddha is endowed. AAnanda replies that there is not a single monk who is so endowed. ... The Buddha's standpoint can be illustrated with the help of a simile. He was like a lonely man who was lost in the fearful wilderness of sa.msaara and earnestly sought a way out. As he had to spend a long time in this vast terrible forest he had to learn a great deal about the forest itself. To survive he had to learn about edible and poisonous plants and fruits; he had to learn the habits and habitats of wild animals; he had to climb trees in order to discover in which direction there were signs of a human settlement, etc. But at long last, when he did discover a straight path leading out of the wilderness, he thought, quite rightly, that it was a waste of time to teach about the ways of the forest to others who are also lost in the wilderness. It is most useful and urgent if he devoted his time and energy to point out the path to other suffering beings. This is exactly the function of a Buddha. Therefore he refrained from teaching what was irrelevant to emancipation. This clearly shows that the Buddha is far superior to other arahants regarding knowledge about matters not directly related to Nibbana. ... Among arahants too there are differences in attainment. In one place the Buddha states that in a group of 500 monks sixty are arahants with the six higher knowledges (cha.labhi~n~naa), sixty are arahants with the three clear knowledges (tevijjaa), another sixty are arahants liberated from both parts (ubhatobhaagavimutta), while the rest are arahants liberated by wisdom (pa~n~naavimutta) ... While the highest qualities attainable by an arahant are certainly found in the Buddha,11 the Suttas assign additional qualifications to the Buddha which are not shared by other arahants. The Mahaasiihanaada Sutta describes ten special powers of the Buddha called tathaagatabala ... To peruse the document, see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/desilva/wheel407.html#n-1-32 peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103601 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:25 pm Subject: Re: The Duration of a Citta dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > "charlest" wrote: > > C: Well, I would think some where in the Tipitaka it would be >delineated. In the Abhidhamma? > > > > I have read the following in a contemporary commentary: > > > > A mind-moment consist of three sub-moments: > > > > 1. Arising (uppada), > > > > 2. Presence (thiti), > > > > 3. Dissolution (bhanga) > > > > metta (maitri), > > > > Chuck > > Dear Chuck, Nina, all, > ... snip > > Alex: > None of the measures ultimately exist independent of conceptual mind, right? > C: What precisely do you mean by, "ultimately exist independent of conceptual mind"? > Alex: > Even time itself is called a concep by CMA. C: It does? On what paragraph and page? > > As to 3 submoments: > > 1. Arising (uppada), > > 2. Presence (thiti), > > 3. Dissolution (bhanga) > > Alex: > Is presence (thiti) a distinct unit or simply a time between first moment of arising (uppada) and last moment till complete dissolution (bhanga)? > C: I am not sure what you ask. We are discussing sub-moments; not, moments! Yes? > > IMHO, > > > Alex > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103602 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:06 am Subject: Re: The Duration of a Citta dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Alex, et al > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Dear Chuck, all, > > > > > "charlest" wrote: > > > > > > Good friends all, > > > > > > Questions: > > > > > > 1. Do you agree the life-span of a "citta" is always a mind-moment >(cittakkhana)? > > ....... snip > C: Well, I would think some where in the Tipitaka it would be delineated. In the Abhidhamma? > > I have read the following in a contemporary commentary: > > A mind-moment consist of three sub-moments: > > 1. Arising (uppada), > > 2. Presence (thiti), > > 3. Dissolution (bhanga) > .......... snip C: Found the following: 19. Bhavanga. Bhava + anga = factor of life, or indispensable cause or condition of existence. One experiences only one thought-moment at any particular time. No two thought-moments coexist. Each thought-moment hangs on to some kind of object. No consciousness arises without an object, either mental or physical. When a person is fast asleep and is in a dreamless state he experiences a kind of consciousness which is more passive than active. It is similar to the consciousness one experiences at the initial moment of conception and at the final moment of death. This type of consciousness is in Abhidhamma termed bhavanga. Like any other consciousness it also consists of three aspects - genesis (uppāda), static (thiti) and cessation (bhanga). Arising and perishing every moment it flows on like a stream not remaining the same for two consecutive moments. When an object enters this stream through the sense-doors, the bhavanga consciousness is arrested and another type of consciousness appropriate to the object perceived arises. Not only in a dreamless state but also in our waking state we experience bhavanga thought-moments more than any other types of consciousness. Hence bhavanga becomes an indispensable condition of life. Mrs. Rhys Davids and Mr. Aung compare bhavanga to "Leibniz's state of obscure perception, not amounting to consciousness, in dreamless sleep. One cannot agree because bhavanga is a type of consciousness. There is no obscure perception here. Some identify bhavanga with sub-consciousness. According to the Dictionary of Philosophy sub-consciousness is ''a compartment of the mind alleged by certain psychologists and philosophers to exist below the threshold of consciousness." In the opinion of Western philosophers sub-consciousness and consciousness coexist. According to Abhidhamma no two types of consciousness coexist. Nor is bhavanga a sub-plane. The Compendium further states that "bhavanga denotes a functional state (or moment ) of sub-consciousness. As such it is the sub-conscious state of mind - 'below the threshold' of consciousness - by which we conceive continuous subjective existence as possible. Thus it corresponds to F. W. Myer's 'subliminal consciousness'".( p.266) The Dictionary of Philosophy explains ''subliminal (sub, under + limen, the threshold) as allegedly unconscious mental processes especially sensations which lie below the threshold of consciousness." Strictly speaking, it does not correspond to subliminal consciousness either. There does not seem to be any place for bhavanga in Western Psychology. Bhavanga is so called because it is an essential condition for continued subjective existence. Whenever the mind does not receive a fresh external object, one experiences a bhavanga consciousness.* Immediately after a thought-process, too, there is a bhavanga consciousness. Hence it is called vīthimutta - process-freed. Sometimes it acts as a buffer between two thought-processes . Life continuum** has been suggested as the closest English equivalent. * Cp. Susupti or deep sleep mentioned in the Upanishads. "In it the mind and the sense are both said to be inactive". Radhakrishnan, Indian Philosophy, p. 258. ** Radhakrishnan says .... Bhavanga is sub-conscious existence, or more accurately existence free from working consciousness, bhavanga is sub-conscious existence when subjectively viewed, though objectively it is sometimes taken to mean Nirvana Indian Philosophy, p. 408....This certainly is not the Buddhist conception. Bhavanga occurs in the waking consciousness too immediately after a citta-vīthi (thought-process). Bhavanga is never identified with Nibbāna. According to the Vibhāvini Tīkā bhavanga arises between, i . patisandhi (relinking) and āvajjana (apprehending), ii. javana and āvajjana, iii. tadārammana and āvajjana, iv. votthapana and āvajjana, and sometimes between v. javana and cuti, and vi. tadārammana and cuti. ...................................... Note: Like any other consciousness it also consists of three aspects - genesis (uppāda), static (thiti) and cessation (bhanga). Arising and perishing every moment it flows on like a stream not remaining the same for two consecutive moments. metta (maitri), Chuck #103603 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: doubt. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 17-dec-2009, om 22:35 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: The ariyan sangha: also denoted as four pairs. What are they: four > pairs of lokuttara cittas, one of these magga-citta and one phala- > citta, fruition. > ----------------------------------------------- > H: Nah! These are ariyans, and they are namarupic flows that have a > history of paths and fruits. :-) ------ N: The object of doubt is their lokuttara cittas. Doubt about lokuttara cittas of the ariyans. We have to be careful what the object of doubt is. I should add something about the Buddha. When one has not attained enlightenment one does not know the meaning of Buddha, one does not know what enlightenment means. The sotaapanna has an unshakable confidence in the Buddha, no doubt, that has been eradicated. The Recollection of the Buddha as subject of meditation cannot be successful for non-ariyan. They do not really know the excellent qualities of the Buddha. See Visuddhimagga. As to ariyans, they can only attain access with this subject, not jhaana, since the subject is very deep. We all can recollect the excellent qualities of the Buddha, and these become more meaningful when vipassanaa is being developed. Then we begin to see a little more his great wisdom, teaching us about all dhammas that can be experienced by pa~n~naa. The sotaapanna may have doubt about the weather: will it freeze or not? But no doubt about citta, cetasika and ruupa, about ultimate realities. Nina. #103604 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:36 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Not only generosity, but also good moral conduct is a way of wholesomeness. This is the second of the threefold classification of wholesomeness. There are many aspects to moral conduct or morality. Abstaining from evil deeds as well as good actions performed through body and speech are included in this way of kusala. We may believe that we are leading a wholesome life so long as we do not harm anybody. However, we should investigate whether the citta which arises is kusala citta or akusala citta. Then we will discover that we are full of defilements. The Buddha taught in detail on all unwholesome and wholesome mental factors which accompany cittas in different combinations. He explained all the different degrees of akusala and kusala. It is necessary to know whether kusala citta or akusala citta motivates our actions and speech, because the outward appearance of our actions and speech is misleading. We may speak in a pleasant way, but we may do so with selfish motives. We may flatter someone else in order to obtain a favour or in order to be liked by him. Then there is not wholesome speech, but speech motivated by attachment. We have to know our attachment, aversion, jealousy and conceit, we have to know all our defilements. Abstaining from evil deeds is good moral conduct. There are three unwholesome deeds performed through bodily action: killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. There are four unwholesome verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech and idle, useless talk. As regards killing, this is the killing on purpose of any living being, insects included. Also ordering someone else to kill is included in this type of akusala kamma. Does this mean that Buddhists should be vegetarians? The Buddha did not teach people to abstain from eating meat. The monks had to accept any kind of food which was offered to them by the layfollowers. The Buddha explained to the monks that they could eat meat unless they had seen, heard or suspected that an animal was killed especially for them. ******* Nina. #103605 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door nilovg Dear Scott, Sarah and all, Sarah asked for more comments about this subject. When the first stage of tender insight is reached, there is not one process but several processes. In Cambodia this was discussed. Sensedoor processes and mind-door processes alternate so quickly, no way of trying to pinpoint them or naming them. When pan~n~naa arises in a mind-door process, who can stop it from also arising in sense- door processes during such moments, Kh Sujin said. Not so long ago when I asked about pa~n~naa arising in sense-door processes, the answer was: in the case of stages of insight. I think that we cannot understand much about all this, but whatever the Buddha taught can eventually be understood, when pa~n~naa has been developed. What otherwise would be the purpose of his teaching, Kh Sujin remarked in another context. Nina. Op 16-dec-2009, om 18:31 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > Scott: Understood, just discussing. So pa~n~naa understands naama > then ruupa and so on back and forth such that, over repeated > moments the distinction becomes clear. I'm still not sure how it > is, by this process, that the mind-door becomes clear. I'd guess it > would be by seeing beyond the 'whole' and into the moment at which > sense-door objects come into the mind-door to be known. #103606 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Duration of a Citta nilovg Dear Chuck, why do you ask? We can speculate but this does not help much. Only the present citta can be understood. Take seeing, do we know what seeing is or do we confuse seeing and thinking of the person or thing that is perceived? It seems to occur all in one moment, but there are different processes. Seeing only knows what is visible, what impinges on the eyesense. It is known through the mind-door, by remembrance of former experiences, that a person or thing is perceived This gives us some indication by experience, not merely in theory, that cittas arise and fall away extremely fast. Nina. Op 18-dec-2009, om 2:44 heeft charlest het volgende geschreven: > Life, person, pleasure, pain–just these alone > > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > > Ceased khandhas of those dead or alive > > Are all alike, gone never to return. > > No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not > > Produced, when that is present, then it lives; > > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead... > > > > C: The above reminds me of the theory of some scientist that there > are parallel universe(s). #103607 From: Charles Xxxxxx Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:21 am Subject: RE: [dsg] The Duration of a Citta dhammasaro Good friend Nina, et al > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > From: vangorko@... > Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:05:35 +0100 > Subject: Re: [dsg] The Duration of a Citta > > Dear Chuck, > why do you ask? C: I may not ask on this forum? Nina: We can speculate but this does not help much. C: This question is not one of the "Ten Questions" (Mahayana list 14, I believe) the historic Buddha said not to ponder. Hence, I ponder. Again Nina, I am not allowed to ponder this question on this forum? Please advise; I shall desist!!! Nina: Only > the present citta can be understood. Take seeing, do we know what > seeing is or do we confuse seeing and thinking of the person or thing > that is perceived? It seems to occur all in one moment, but there are > different processes. Seeing only knows what is visible, what impinges > on the eyesense. It is known through the mind-door, by remembrance of > former experiences, that a person or thing is perceived This gives us > some indication by experience, not merely in theory, that cittas > arise and fall away extremely fast. C: I do not fully agree. It is not as I was taught. Arahant's have great capabilities. Other's on the Path have capabilities. But, I am a mere worldling (puthujjana) with only ordinary capabilities. Again Nina, please advise the limits of my questions. I shall desist and again have "Noble Silence" as you require. > Nina. > Op 18-dec-2009, om 2:44 heeft charlest het volgende geschreven: > .............deleted peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103608 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:00 am Subject: Re: The Life Span of a Citta jonoabb Hi Chuck --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friends all... > > It is a mind-moment (cittakkhana). > > So, how long is a mind-moment. > =============== As far as I know, this piece of information was never explicated by the Buddha or explained in the commentaries. To my understanding, it is not something that needs to be known in order for the path to be developed. Remember, there was much the Buddha knew that he did not explain because it was not relevant to obtaining release from samsara. > =============== > Please no extraneous stuff. Just simply answer the question. If you can not, please practice "noble silence." > =============== Apologies if I've strayed into the realm of "extraneous stuff" ;-)) Jon #103609 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:18 am Subject: Re: The Life Span of a Citta dhammasaro Good friend Jon, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Chuck > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > > Good friends all... > > > > It is a mind-moment (cittakkhana). > > > > So, how long is a mind-moment. > > =============== > >Jon: > As far as I know, this piece of information was never explicated by the Buddha or explained in the commentaries. > > To my understanding, it is not something that needs to be known in order for the path to be developed. Remember, there was much the Buddha knew that he did not explain because it was not relevant to obtaining release from samsara. > > > =============== > > Please no extraneous stuff. Just simply answer the question. If you can not, please practice "noble silence." > > =============== > > Apologies if I've strayed into the realm of "extraneous stuff" ;-)) > > Jon > ... C: Good friend Jon, sincere warm thanks for your comments. You are correct, it needs not be known. Question 1: Are not the majority of topics on this forum not needed to be known, as well? Question 2: I am a long time member. I do not recall reading my e-mail where a member was questioned, by good friend Nina, as I was. To me, it is extraordinary!!! Perhaps, insulting!!! Again, sincere warm thanks for your comments. They are correct. To me, as a householder, following the precepts and meditation are utmost important!!! All else can be considered garbage!!! It needs not be known through this forum. Nor from books as a very respected personage states. Through meditation it will be known!!! peace my good friend, Jon metta (maitri), Chuck #103610 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Duration of a Citta nilovg Dear Chuck, Op 18-dec-2009, om 11:21 heeft Charles Xxxxxx het volgende geschreven: > Again Nina, please advise the limits of my questions. ------ N: You misunderstood me, when I said: why do you ask. Of course you are free to ask anything. I just wanted to know the reason behind your question, whether you had a specific purpose wanting to know the speed of citta. No criticism intended at all. I should have said: why do you want to know? I had no idea you would misunderstand me. With Emails misunderstandings can easily arise. Some people like to know in scientific terms speed. But I think that this is not helpful to develop the Path. ----------- > N: > the present citta can be understood. Take seeing, do we know what > > seeing is or do we confuse seeing and thinking of the person or > thing > > that is perceived? It seems to occur all in one moment, but there > are > > different processes. Seeing only knows what is visible, what > impinges > > on the eyesense. It is known through the mind-door, by > remembrance of > > former experiences, that a person or thing is perceived This > gives us > > some indication by experience, not merely in theory, that cittas > > arise and fall away extremely fast. --------- > > C: I do not fully agree. It is not as I was taught. > > Arahant's have great capabilities. > > Other's on the Path have capabilities. > > But, I am a mere worldling (puthujjana) with only ordinary > capabilities. --------- N: Still, you can come to understand that seeing has a characteristic different from thinking about the thing that is perceived. This is a begibbing of right understanding. Also arahats had to begin once. Nina. #103611 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Nina), --- On Fri, 18/12/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >When the first stage of tender insight is reached, there is not one process but several processes. In Cambodia this was discussed. Sensedoor processes and mind-door processes alternate so quickly, no way of trying to pinpoint them or naming them. ... S: yes, these are good points to stress... Like now, if there's awareness of visible object, we also know that many processes are involved and who can say at any moment whether the vis object is appearing through the mind door or sense door? I also thought of the Cambodia discussions. Scott, have a look under 'Cambodia' in U.P. and you'll find them. Pls quote any short extacts or comments for further discussion if you feel inclined to do so. Metta Sarah ====== #103613 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:02 am Subject: Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: >The Anapanasati Sutta (A Practical Guide in Mindfulness of Breathing and Tranquil Wisdom Meditation) as discussed by Venerable U Vimalaramsi. <.... ... S: In case you haven't come to them in your archive reading, Ven Vimalaramsi used to be a member and was engaged in several discussions here. (Just search for his name in the 'search' space on the home-page). I remember the discussions about smiling which you've been touching on with Ken O. What do you think of these messages which I found helpful: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/39336 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/39066 Metta Sarah ========= #103614 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:08 am Subject: Re: Pure Merit! sarahprocter... Hi Chuck, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > > > > > ................ snip > > > The young brahman Magha once asked the Blessed Buddha: > > Giving food, where would the offering be most purified for the donor? > > The Blessed One answered: If any open-handed householder, a lordly giver, Magha, seeking merit, looking for merit, sacrifices, giving food and drink to others, such one would achieve most merit, if the recipient is pure and Noble. > > C: > > 1. The merit I obtain depends on the pureness of the recipient? True? ... S: True. .... > > 2. Does not my intention enter into the equation? No? ... S: Yes, very much so. If one's intention is just to get a lot of merit for oneself, such as for a happy rebirth, no matter who the recipient, there won't be much (if any) merit.... Metta Sarah ======= #103615 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:37 am Subject: Printing posts sarahprocter... Hi Chuck (pt & all), [Yes, I prefer to read hard copy too, away from the computer - one can use recycled, double-sided paper at least....and share with one's family and friends if possible!] Steps we follow for downloading recent posts: 1. Go to DSG homepage http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/ 2. Click on messages and make sure they're showing in summary/individual messages, with the most recent on top 3. Click on the subject heading of the message you last read and it will show up. 4. Click on 'message list' at the top right under 'start topic' and the last message read will now be at the top of the list. 5. Click on 'expand' at top left 6. Click on 'sort by date' at top right 7. Click on 'newer' at top right, and you should then have all the messages ready to copy, starting at the one following the last one you read. 7. I then copy into 'notepad' and then to a word file, condense and cut out all the unnecessary parts and spaces to minimise the pages and print out from there. 8. If there were more than 30 messages, after downloading into the word file, go back to your same place on the website and just click 'newer' again at top right and the next 30 will be ready to copy. **** Pls let me know if I've made any mistakes. It sounds complicated, but is very simple when you do it regularly! pt may find another way and of course one can wait for Connie to do the updating on dhammastudygroup.org or the other back-up site, but I don't. ***** Metta Sarah ======== #103616 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:37 am Subject: Re: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks sarahprocter... Good Friend Chuck, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > C: Just received a phone call from a friend. He just returned from a pilgrimage to India. He will pick me up tomorrow and take me to my ajahn. So, again will not visit the Foundation. Perhaps I will prevail and we will visit the Foundation the following Saturday. ... S: hope your cold's better by tomorrow.... Btw, I'm sure you've told me before, but would you mind saying again who your ajahn is and telling us a little about him. I'm sure you'll be made very welcome if you and your friend visit the Foundation the following Sat or any other one. As I said, just check with Sukin that there's a session.... ... > > FWIW, over the years, I have read the DSG posts. Many I do not understand. Just a limitation of this ole Texican codger. > > > > I have not responded at home in Texas as I have a very slow dial-up internet connection. Here, in Bangkok, it is very satisfactory. [Verily beeg Texican smiles] .... S: Satisfactory for all us of us to have you around, too! Perhaps broadband will be available by the time you return to Texas. ... > C: When return home to the Texas "Hill Country" I again will practice "Noble Silence." [wink - wink] ... S: I hope you find a way to continue the discussions. The downloading from the back-up site onto your hard-drive might work well for you if you have a slow/costly connection. Pls keep asking any dhamma qus you have an interest in here. All your qus are helpful for us all. As Nina said, sometimes there can be small misunderstandings, but we all get over them:-)) Metta Sarah ===== #103617 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship upasaka_howard Hi, Chuck - In a message dated 12/18/2009 12:56:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dhammasaro@... writes: The Buddha's standpoint can be illustrated with the help of a simile. He was like a lonely man who was lost in the fearful wilderness of sa.msaara and earnestly sought a way out. As he had to spend a long time in this vast terrible forest he had to learn a great deal about the forest itself. To survive he had to learn about edible and poisonous plants and fruits; he had to learn the habits and habitats of wild animals; he had to climb trees in order to discover in which direction there were signs of a human settlement, etc. But at long last, when he did discover a straight path leading out of the wilderness, he thought, quite rightly, that it was a waste of time to teach about the ways of the forest to others who are also lost in the wilderness. It is most useful and urgent if he devoted his time and energy to point out the path to other suffering beings. This is exactly the function of a Buddha. Therefore he refrained from teaching what was irrelevant to emancipation. This clearly shows that the Buddha is far superior to other arahants regarding knowledge about matters not directly related to Nibbana. ================================= First, Chuck, just a greeting from me! (We haven't "talked" yet. :-) Secondly, I think this was a really interesting post of yours, and I want to mention that the part I copied above was a really wonderful simile in my estimation. Thanks! :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103618 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: doubt. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/18/2009 3:33:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 17-dec-2009, om 22:35 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: The ariyan sangha: also denoted as four pairs. What are they: four > pairs of lokuttara cittas, one of these magga-citta and one phala- > citta, fruition. > ----------------------------------------------- > H: Nah! These are ariyans, and they are namarupic flows that have a > history of paths and fruits. :-) ------ N: The object of doubt is their lokuttara cittas. Doubt about lokuttara cittas of the ariyans. We have to be careful what the object of doubt is. ------------------------------------------- As far as I know, that doubt about the ariyan sangha is the doubt that these people were (or are) truly arahants; i.e., doubting that the magga & phala of full awakening occured in those mind streams. ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103619 From: Ken O Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) ashkenn2k Dear Alex Alex: So how did the Buddha intend Anapanasati to be developed? KO: that depends on many factors and anapanasati may not be suitable for everyone. There are different people with different level of understanding. If you wish to use anapanasati, I am not stopping you neither am I encouraging you. My method use is nama and rupa. Cheers Ken O #103620 From: Ken O Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:38 am Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 5 ashkenn2k Dear all Q. : When I receive a Dhamma book about the practice in daily life I read it many times, because I want to be able to practise. However, all the time there is a concept of self, there is self who sees when there is seeing. I cannot realize that colour is rúpa, seeing is nÃ¥ma. I keep on thinking about all that has been explained, but I cannot be aware of nÃ¥ma and rúpa in the right way. Please, could you explain to me how to be aware? S. : When there is seeing which experiences an object through the eyes, can you at that moment investigate the characteristic of the dhamma which naturally appears? It is essential to know how understanding should be developed, so that later on paññå can become accomplished to the degree of the first stage of insight, knowledge of the difference between nama and rúpa. First of all sati can be aware and study the different characteristics of nÃ¥ma and rúpa which are naturally appearing through any of the doorways. Awareness is different from thinking about nÃ¥ma and rúpa, from theoretical understanding which stems from listening to the Dhamma. Awareness of realities is not developed if you, while seeing, think about it with agitation, worry and nervousness; if you think with agitation that what appears is rúpa and that seeing is nÃ¥ma. At such a moment there is no investigation, no study of a characteristic of rúpa or a characteristic of nÃ¥ma. It is necessary to have first correct understanding of the characteristics of nÃ¥ma and rúpa so that satipaììhÃ¥na can arise and be directly aware of them. You should understand that the nÃ¥ma which sees is a reality which experiences something, that it has no shape or form and that it is non-self. It is not necessary to assume a particular posture in order to know realities. It is not necessary to stand first and then see, or to sit or lie down first and then see, so that you would know seeing as it is. SatipaììhÃ¥na investigates precisely the characteristic of seeing as a type of reality which experiences something, not “Iâ€? or self, not a being or a person. When satipaììhÃ¥na arises and it is aware of the characteristic of rúpa appearing through the eyes, that characteristic can be investigated, so that it is known as only a type of reality, not self, not a being or a person. (to be continued) Cheers Ken O #103621 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: doubt. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - One more comment. In a message dated 12/18/2009 3:33:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > N: The ariyan sangha: also denoted as four pairs. What are they: four > pairs of lokuttara cittas, one of these magga-citta and one phala- > citta, fruition. > ----------------------------------------------- > H: Nah! These are ariyans, and they are namarupic flows that have a > history of paths and fruits. :-) =============================== You say that the ariyans are four pairs of mind states. Nina, that cannot be taken literally. Any of the historical ariyans were *people* who *experienced* such states. What you are saying is a misuse of language. Some ariyans were killed. It wasn't paths & fruits that were killed! It was people. Some ariyans joined the bhikkhu sangha. It wasn't paths & fruits that joined, but people! Speaking in the way you are may sound deep, and may emphasize the states of awakening, but it is misleading and not necessary. That is my main point in the conversation quoted above. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103622 From: Ken O Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:43 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 8 ashkenn2k Dear all There is one other class of objects, namely dhammårammaùa (mental object). This class of objects can only be experienced through the mind-door. There are six kinds of dhammårammaùa: the five pasåda-rúpas (senses), sixteen subtle rúpas (sukhuma rúpas),15 citta, cetasika, nibbåna, and concepts (paññattis). Five classes of dhammårammaùa, namely, the pasåda-rúpas, the subtle rúpas, citta, cetasika, and nibbåna are paramattha dhammas. One class, the paññattis, are not paramattha dhammas. The cittas of the eye-door process, namely the eye-door adverting-consciousness, seeing-consciousness, receiving consciousness, investigating-consciousness, determining consciousness, the javana-cittas16 and the tadålambanacittas17( retention), experience visible object which has not fallen away yet. They do not have a concept as object. The cittas of the ear-door process experience sound which has not fallen away yet, they do not have a concept as object. It is the same with the cittas of the nose door process, the tongue-door process and the body-door process. To be continued Cheers Ken O #103623 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:48 am Subject: Misunderstanding/Nina & Chuck (Re: [dsg] The Duration of a Citta) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina & Chuck - In a message dated 12/18/2009 6:42:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Chuck, Op 18-dec-2009, om 11:21 heeft Charles Xxxxxx het volgende geschreven: > Again Nina, please advise the limits of my questions. ------ N: You misunderstood me, when I said: why do you ask. Of course you are free to ask anything. I just wanted to know the reason behind your question, whether you had a specific purpose wanting to know the speed of citta. No criticism intended at all. I should have said: why do you want to know? I had no idea you would misunderstand me. With Emails misunderstandings can easily arise. Some people like to know in scientific terms speed. But I think that this is not helpful to develop the Path. ================================= Chuck, I disagree with many of the positions that Nina & some others here put forward, but want you to know that with few and very minor exceptions aside, all the folks on this list are kind and well meaning. I especially want you to know that Nina is as close to a perfect exemplar of harmlessness (ahimsa) as I have known. So, when it might seem otherwise, rest assured that it is a misunderstanding. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103624 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:04 am Subject: Error Re: [dsg] Re: doubt. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 12/18/2009 10:30:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: As far as I know, that doubt about the ariyan sangha is the doubt that these people were (or are) truly arahants; i.e., doubting that the magga & phala of full awakening occured in those mind streams. ============================ I meant to write "truly ariyans" rather than "truly arahants". With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103625 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:17 am Subject: Re: The Duration of a Citta truth_aerator >"charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Alex, et al > > C: I fail to perceive any connection of the above cites to my question at hand!!! > > I observe monkey-mind, Dependent Origination, mindlessness, and, the advice to "...live heedfully." But, no thing about a citta, mind-moment nor about the three sub-moments. > > ...... snip > > > > > > IMHO, > > > > Alex > > > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck Dear Chuck, all, the exact and precise details (about length of citta khana) are not found in sutta pitaka or even Canonical Abhidhamma. I've provided most relevant passages, and as you see, they do not exactly define (what may be a conventional truth itself) the exact length of "mind moment". With metta, Alex #103626 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:24 am Subject: Re: The Duration of a Citta truth_aerator Dear Chuck, all. > > "charlest" wrote: > > > C: Well, I would think some where in the Tipitaka it would be >delineated. In the Abhidhamma? > > > > > > I have read the following in a contemporary commentary: > > > > > > A mind-moment consist of three sub-moments: > > > > > > 1. Arising (uppada), > > > > > > 2. Presence (thiti), > > > > > > 3. Dissolution (bhanga) > > > > > > metta (maitri), > > > > > > Chuck > > > > Dear Chuck, Nina, all, > > > ... snip > > > > Alex: > > None of the measures ultimately exist independent of conceptual >mind, right? > > > > > C: What precisely do you mean by, "ultimately exist independent of >conceptual mind"? What I've meant is that measuring, is mental & conceptual process. None of the measures ultimately exist in the mind-independent world. Feet, inches, miles, etc - these are MENTAL CONCEPTS. Same with nano-seconds, seconds, minutes or hours. So by saying that citta lasts 1/trillionth of a second (or whatever) - that measurement of time IS conceptual. > > > Alex: > > Even time itself is called a concep by CMA. > > > C: It does? On what paragraph and page? > > > > > > As to 3 submoments: > > > 1. Arising (uppada), > > > 2. Presence (thiti), > > > 3. Dissolution (bhanga) > > > > Alex: > > Is presence (thiti) a distinct unit or simply a time between first moment of arising (uppada) and last moment till complete dissolution (bhanga)? > > > > C: I am not sure what you ask. > > We are discussing sub-moments; not, moments! Yes? > What we consider sub-moments may be conceptual division of reality itself. Furthermore, those 3 moments may actually be 2 moments. But to tell you the truth, this isn't fully relevant to our discussion. With metta, Alex #103627 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > Dear Alex > > > Alex: So how did the Buddha intend Anapanasati to be developed? > > KO: that depends on many factors and anapanasati may not be >suitable for everyone. True. But Buddha did praise anapanasati very much and he did often talk about and He did teach Satipatthana through anapanasati. >There are different people with different level of understanding. >If you wish to use anapanasati, I am not stopping you neither am I >encouraging you. My method use is nama and rupa. > > > Cheers > Ken O Why can't one see namarupa while doing anapanasati? The thing is that the awareness of namarupa during anapanasati is much clearer than when one is busy with talking and doing daily life stuff. With metta, Alex #103628 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friends all, Hello Chuck, A Buddha is a self awakened Arahant who discovered the path by himself and without help in his last life... In the 4.5 Nikayas there is no teaching of long gathering of Paramis, etc etc. Future Gotama became a Buddhist when he became a monk under Buddha Kassapa. 2 lives later he became Buddha Gotama. Future Buddha Gotama did have long metta practice in his past lives prior to that. But no vow or anything like that. One becomes Buddha or Arahant due to impersonal causes and conditions. No-control. You can't wish "May I become a Buddha... or, May I become an Arahant!" And the whole teaching of postponing one's awakening doesn't understand Anatta and no-control teaching... If there are causes for awakening now, it happens. If there are no causes for awakening now, then it will not happen now! No choice! No control! With metta, Alex #103629 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: doubt. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 18-dec-2009, om 16:37 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > You say that the ariyans are four pairs of mind states. Nina, that > cannot be taken literally. -------- N: I do not say this, not me, it is in the suttas. Four pairs of men. Why four pairs? Maggacitta and phalacitta of each of the four stages of enlightenment. A good reminder of the fact that cittas attain enlightenment. Pa~n~naa was developed to that stage. -------- > H: Any of the historical ariyans were *people* who > *experienced* such states. What you are saying is a misuse of > language. Some > ariyans were killed. It wasn't paths & fruits that were killed! It > was people. --------- N: I think at the root of our disagreement is again the question: conventional truth and ultimate truth. What is a person? Citta, cetasika and ruupa. A person is fleeting phenomena. Some ariyans were killed. True. The dying-consciousness arose for them, and if they were not arahats this dying-consciousness was succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness of a next life. The lokuttara cittas were not killed, true. Those cittas arose for a moment, at the moment of attaining enlightenment and then fell away. These cirras did not last. They also experienced pain, vipaakacittas produced by former kamma. Naama and ruupa all the time. ---------- > H: Some ariyans joined the bhikkhu sangha. It wasn't paths & fruits > that > joined, but people! ------- N: It is not wrong to speak of bhikkhus, of laypeople. We have to use these terms to designate their different status. Cittas that have different aims in life. Bhikkhu life is a higher life than laylife. This characterizes the cittas that arise. But terms can be used without having misunderstandings. That is what the Buddha said. The Buddha had no misunderstandings when speaking of I and him, of Saariputta, of Aananda. --------- Nina. #103630 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Realities and Concepts. nilovg Dear Ken O, Howard and Vince, I just thought over Howard's remarks on people and what people are. And are there no people? You, Ken, indicate how hard it is to break old habits of conceiving concepts all the time, as you wrote to Lodewijk. That is true, it is not easy. That is why discussions can go on and on. Op 14-dec-2009, om 17:48 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > We place values or like or dislike on concepts. This habit is hard > to break. Just like me its difficult to be mindful of a beautiful > concept like a beautiful lady as a visible object. It takes time > to understand that there is no being in this visible object. When > there is no being in an object, craving would not arise because > there is nothing to gain from this object. Just like, there is > nothing to drink from an empty coke can drink. there is nothing to > obtain from it, there is no craving, there is no feeling of loss if > it disappear. This empty coke can drink (or a cup) is like a > visible object that is empty of a being or self. > > Most of our time we crave and cling over concepts. That is why AS > is correct to say it is just nama and rupa. It take me some time > to understand her statements of not thinking, not labelling and > just seeing, just nama and rupa and the understanding of their > distinct characteritistic. ------ N: It takes time to get used to this: there are just nama and rupa. ------- > K: IMHO, it is our conditioning to concepts that we go round and > round in the cycle of birth and death. We take pleasure in our > gains of concept like wealth, beautiful things, youth and > displeasure over their loss. Personally I felt breaking down of > concept by understanding of nama and rupa is the first step in the > development of right view. ----- N: The first step is indeed to understand the difference between concepts and paramattha dhammas, understanding what nama and rupa are, and this at the present moment. Nina. #103631 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: doubt. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/18/2009 2:19:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 18-dec-2009, om 16:37 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > You say that the ariyans are four pairs of mind states. Nina, that > cannot be taken literally. -------- N: I do not say this, not me, it is in the suttas. Four pairs of men. ------------------------------------------- The four pairs of "men" (women too, of course) are four pairs of PERSONS! What persons? Those within whom have arisen path and fruit states of stream entry, once-returning, non-returning, or arahantship. ----------------------------------------------- Why four pairs? Maggacitta and phalacitta of each of the four stages of enlightenment. A good reminder of the fact that cittas attain enlightenment. Pa~n~naa was developed to that stage. -------- > H: Any of the historical ariyans were *people* who > *experienced* such states. What you are saying is a misuse of > language. Some > ariyans were killed. It wasn't paths & fruits that were killed! It > was people. --------- N: I think at the root of our disagreement is again the question: conventional truth and ultimate truth. What is a person? Citta, cetasika and ruupa. ------------------------------------------------ A stream of such, a dynamic collection of such! And this is a language usage problem, Nina. Many of the Buddha's disciples were ariyans. They were people with many cittas and cetasikas. What made them ariyans was that some paths and fruits had arisen within them. These ariyans went out begging, but their path & fruit states didn't do that! They had come and gone. ------------------------------------------------------------ A person is fleeting phenomena. ---------------------------------------------------------- A stream of fleeting phenomena. --------------------------------------------------------- Some ariyans were killed. True. The dying-consciousness arose for them, and if they were not arahats this dying-consciousness was succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness of a next life. ----------------------------------------------------------- But it was not the stream-entry path & fruit states that were killed, nor did dying-consciousness arise for them, nor were they reborn. It is a mistake and a mixing of categories and unclear speech to talk of an ariyan as path & fruit states. --------------------------------------------------------- The lokuttara cittas were not killed, true. -------------------------------------------------------- Yes! But ariyans were! Thus, identifying the two is an ERROR! ------------------------------------------------------- Those cittas arose for a moment, at the moment of attaining enlightenment and then fell away. These cirras did not last. They also experienced pain, vipaakacittas produced by former kamma. Naama and ruupa all the time. ---------- > H: Some ariyans joined the bhikkhu sangha. It wasn't paths & fruits > that > joined, but people! ------- N: It is not wrong to speak of bhikkhus, of laypeople. --------------------------------------------- But it IS wrong to speak of paths & fruits joining the bhikkhu sangha. ------------------------------------------------ We have to use these terms to designate their different status. Cittas that have different aims in life. Bhikkhu life is a higher life than laylife. This characterizes the cittas that arise. But terms can be used without having misunderstandings. That is what the Buddha said. The Buddha had no misunderstandings when speaking of I and him, of Saariputta, of Aananda. --------- Nina. =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103632 From: "colette" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:55 am Subject: Re: Far Flung Whimsy: "that's the end of that" ksheri3 "Hey BABY, tell me why you hangin' round" Terrible TEd Nugent (one of my monikers when I spent 30 days in Cook County Jail before going to prison for the other 30 days) Okay, I know I shouldn't expend this value in such a trivial sense but I had planned on using, TODAY, RIGHT NOW: "Woke up this mornin' had a blue moon in my eyes" author unknown So, Good Morning Icaro, > > As could say a Butcher or Ananda...let´s do it by parts! > > colette: INDEED!<...> -------------------------------------- colette: SUFFERING A GREAT TOPIC TO SPEAK OF. THANK YOU. > Hope and faith are remedies for the real fact that you are suffering - for Buddha,that is the main fact about everyone's existence." -------- STOP RIGHT THERE. -------------------------- For other people with more mundane tracts, they are a tool for social enslavering and to keep social classes freezed out. colette: wow, this is an act a behavior. <...> "and I got my self a gun"? <....> oops, gotta go. toodles, colette <...> #103633 From: "colette" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:34 am Subject: "Hello Darkness my old friend, I've come to talk with you again" ksheri3 Hi Icaro and Charles (aka Chuck), thanx Icaro, for stepping up to the plate and trying to enlighten Chuck, about me and for me. I could never have or had done such a splendid job. Thank YOu. allow me to add to that which is. > All Western theologies consider Buddhism a menace for themselves due the fact that True Buddhism ( Theravada, for example), doesn´t sponsor any idea of God to be praised, or Eternal Heaven to be reached by the justified ones, or faith to be cherished by devotees. colette: DELISCIOUS! Now, I've made the conssetion to that the prose it deliscious and so allow me room to navigate. WITHOUT QUESTION, that there is no ULTIMATE OBJECTIVITY of a Goal as if these hallucinatory players of the game of life in the Western sense, never had a self to begin with and to play with since it was always predetermined from the begining that these robots had no choices to make and no ideas to think simply because this creator deity has done it all for them and they are merely to reep the benefits of being the resultant phenomena of a virus <...> ------------------------ > Since dear Colette considers such pious devotees as a mass of slaves to be ruled out by ignorance and obscurantism, like the Western Creationism, so, at her reasoning, there exists a state of war between Buddhism - and its claim for enlightment and freedom - and Western Theology, with all its scholastics! > colette: TRUE, I once considered these slaves to mantra, the corporate slogan, and Iconography aka the golden arches, or a MANDELA, or et al,I considered them nothing more than slaves to manifest some drug dependent's delusions of granduer for them i.e. a slave building a pyramid and leading a meaningness life/existance simply to build this representation of another person's delusions, hallucinations. I can go into the concept of KNOWLEDGE as being the key that sets the slave free from the YOKE of DOGMA however then I'd be walking into the maze/labyrinth of those damned SODOMITES from all UNIVERSITIES, aka THE GREEKS who find security in numbers that do not confess of their orgies. Oh, and GNOSIS is not the Greek word for Knowledge and Gnostics, in the Christian faith, did not structure their system upon the foundation of KNOWLEDGE first? Without question Buddhism strips the idoloter of the illusions that come from idol worship, etc. but now I'm finding that Buddhism has a lot of unanswered questions concerning it's own existance. Good heavens, do not think that I believe that Buddhism is the MAGIK BULLET, the CURE ALL drug for what ails ya, etc. By all means it is possible that Buddhism, itself, is nothing more than smoke & mirrors exactly like all the other theolgoies, HOWEVER, I haven't reached that point yet. Explain how there are pyrimids in Egypt put also pyramids in Ankor Wat Vietnam and the pyramid that the first emporer of China is burried under, and the pyramids in South & Central America, etc? If you think that your answer to explain the pyramid structures in South & Central America will work then you will also have to explain how the people "floated" over to South & Central America since anthropologists have been trying to explain that for hundreds of years. How about BLACK HOLES? Why is it that scientists don't know that much about a black hole? <..> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Icaro" wrote: > > Hi Charlest! > > I will try to Clarify...french prosody is intriguing sometimes. <...> #103634 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:26 pm Subject: Awareness of present moment. truth_aerator Dear Nina, KenH, KenO, > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Mike, > > Op 16-dec-2009, om 20:51 heeft Mike het volgende geschreven: > > > Quotes N: We think that > > > listening is good, but see how fast the idea of 'I,I,I' comes in. It > > > is beneficial to notice this and without the Buddha's teaching we > > > would never know anything about the different cittas. > > > > > > Mike: Am I understanding correctly from what you say that you DO > > pay attention to the sensations, feelings, mindstates, thoughts and > > so on that arise in daily life? You are not just analysing the > > Buddha's teachings, but using those teachings to inform your > > observation of your daily experience? > ------ > N: The Buddhist teachings are 'not in the book', as Kh Sujin says. > They are to be verified in our life. But beginning is beginning. We > have to learn that whatever is experienced is conditioned dhamma. > -------- > > > > Mike: This may sound like a really silly question, but I have to > > ask it because I see so many posts here (not from you) that appear > > to me to be suggesting that any sort of "observation" is pointless > > (because of the speed of citta, not-self, etc, etc). I may, of > > course, be misunderstanding them... > -------- > N: Characteristics of different realities appear and very gradually > these characteristics are understood more clearly 'as mere dhammas', > not self. Cittas are very fast, but still characteristics appear and > we need not think of the speed of cittas. > When someone says that he observes his feelings he has to find out > himself whether this is done with an dea of 'I am observing'. I think > that the word observing may be misleading. Better think of > understanding. > > ------ > Nina. Please clarify this point. According to your views, is it acceptable to develop *present moment awareness of namarupa happening now? Or do you just stick to sutamayapanna? *What I mean by present moment awareness of namarupa happening now is understanding and awareness of satipatthana (kaya, vedana, citta, dhamma) happening now, With metta, Alex #103636 From: A T Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:22 pm Subject: Duration of maggaphala, 8 noble people. truth_aerator Dear Nina, KenH, all, As I understand it, the commentaries teach that path (magga) lasts for a moment and after it fruit (phala) follows. There are suttas that do say that path (dhammÄ?nusÄ?rÄ« and saddhÄ?nusÄ?rÄ«, for example) last far longer than a mind moment. That these are actual people who can walk and talk, an action that lasts far longer than a mind moment. This seems to contradict the later notion that magga is instantaneously followed by phala. DhammÄ?nusÄ?rÄ«/saddhÄ?nusÄ?rÄ«, (magga) may remain such until his death to become a Sotapanna (phala). "This is called an individual who is a conviction-follower. Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html Here a saddhÄ?nusÄ?rÄ« seems to be an actual person who exists for far longer than a mind moment. ======== ""One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry. "One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.001.than.html ========= "Venerable sir, it is not surprising, when I invite the bhikkhus the gods approach me and tell- `Householder, this bhikkhu is released bothwise. This one is released through faith, this one is a body witness, this one has attined right view, this one is released through faith, this one walks in the Teaching. this one lives with faith, is virtuous, this one is unvirtuous with evil things. Venerable sir, when I attend on the Community it does not occur to me, -this one should be given a little, this one should be given more. I give with the same frame of mind. This is the sixth wonderful and surprising thing, evident in me." http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanip\ ata/003-gahapativaggo-e.html "‘‘Anacchariyaṃ kho pana, bhante, saá¹…ghe nimantite devatÄ? upasaá¹…kamitvÄ? Ä?rocenti – ‘asuko, gahapati, bhikkhu ubhatobhÄ?gavimutto asuko paññÄ?vimutto asuko kÄ?yasakkhÄ« asuko diá¹¹­hippatt [diá¹¹ (ka.)] asuko saddhÄ?vimutto asuko dhammÄ?nusÄ?rÄ« asuko saddhÄ?nusÄ?rÄ« asuko sÄ«lavÄ? kalyÄ?ṇadhammo asuko dussÄ«lo pÄ?padhammo’ti. Saá¹…ghaṃ kho panÄ?haṃ, bhante, parivisanto nÄ?bhijÄ?nÄ?mi evaṃ cittaṃ uppÄ?dento – ‘imassa vÄ? thokaṃ demi imassa vÄ? bahuka’nti. Atha khvÄ?haṃ, bhante, samacittova demi. Ayaṃ kho me, bhante, chaá¹¹­h acchariyo abbhuto dhammo saṃvijjati. " AN PTS 4.215 Another has attained right view, another is released through faith, another treads the path of the Teaching and another the path of faith. Another is virtuous and conducts well, another unvirtuous and has evil conduct. They announce each others attainments for want of gain, gaining, partake it enslaved, swooned with greed and are not wise to see the danger. Bhikkhus, this is the gathering that honour material and not the good Teaching. 49. ‘‘DvemÄ?, bhikkhave, parisÄ?. KatamÄ? dve? Ä€misagaru parisÄ? no saddhammagaru, saddhammagaru parisÄ? no Ä?misagaru. KatamÄ? ca, bhikkhave, Ä?misagaru parisÄ? no saddhammagaru? Idha, bhikkhave, yassaṃ parisÄ?yaṃ bhikkhÅ« gihÄ«naṃ odÄ?tavasanÄ?naṃ sammukhÄ? aññamaññassa vaṇṇaṃ bhÄ?santi – ‘asuko bhikkhu ubhatobhÄ?gavimutto, asuko paññÄ?vimutto, asuko kÄ?yasakkhÄ«, asuko diá¹¹, asuko saddhÄ?vimutto, asuko dhammÄ?nusÄ?rÄ«, asuko saddhÄ?nusÄ?rÄ«, asuko sÄ«lavÄ? kalyÄ?ṇadhammo, asuko dussÄ«lo pÄ?padhammo’ti. Te tena lÄ?bhaṃ labhanti. Te taṃ lÄ?bhaṃ labhitvÄ? gathitÄ? [gadhitÄ? (ka.)] mucchitÄ? ajjhopannÄ? [ajjhosÄ?nÄ? (ka.), anajjhopannÄ? (sÄ«. syÄ?. ka.) tikanipÄ?te kusinÄ?ravagge paá¹¹«kÄ? oloketabbÄ?] anÄ?dÄ«navadassÄ?vino anissaraṇapaññÄ? paribhuñjanti. Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, Ä?misagaru parisÄ? no saddhammagaru. PTS AN 1.73 http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara1/2-dukanipata\ /005-Parisavaggo-e.html Is there any explanation for this contradiction? I agree that actual moment of achieving this or that may last for a short time. But why can't a person remain saddhÄ?nusÄ?rÄ« or dhammÄ?nusÄ?rÄ« for longer than a mind moment? With metta, Alex #103637 From: Vince Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:40 pm Subject: Re[6]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina: you wrote: > I am thinking over your questions and it seems that it concerns : > what is ruupa, and what is emptiness. > Ken O explained to you about realities and I try to add something. my concern is not really about emptiness but about the possibility of integrating abhidhamma in the practice. Thanks again for the interchange. > V: I think if some person is experiencing rupa, then he should realize > the emptiness of rupa. > ----------- > N: No, not yet. Emptiness is nothing else but anattaness. See Middle > Length Sayings, III, Su~n~natavagga, Division on Emptiness. All > dhammas are anatta, they are empty of self. But this is not yet > realized in the beginning. I'm not sure if I'm understand you. I agree the experience of emptiness is anatteness. However, anatteness exists without being a discriminative experience of nama, rupa and citta but as an experience of anatta in the world an oneself. For this reason it is called "Suchness" in the Suttas. Having saying this, there are different degrees of depth and stabilization of the emptiness experience. According "A Survey...", in higher states of realization, naama and rupa arises as a discriminative experience. Then, for a person in an initial state of progress, the nama-and-rupa can be so unknown as the heavens gods, the recollection of previous births, etc. > N: Naama and ruupa are just names to denote realities, and those names > are not important. You do not have to think of them. Naama denotes > citta and cetasika, and rupa denotes what is physical or material, > thus, the reality which does not think, feel, or wish. I agree. For this reason I feel quite uncomfortable calling them "ultimate realities". As I have told you, I don't know about the discriminative experience of these things in arhants, etc, But for sure Nama and rupa finally must be only names. Whatever they can be, finally it cannot belong to nobody and cannot be sustained by nothing at all For this reason, until now to me they are an only skillful mean. However, my interest grows when it seems they also can be experienced in higher states of progress. > V: According same K.Sujin, citta, cetasika and rupa ara sankhara dhamma > and they exists because conditions. Therefore, finally there is not > difference regarding taking a table or taking rupa. > ----- > N: Table is not real, it is a concept of a whole. Rupas are real, > they have different characteristics that present themselves one at a > time and can be known without having to think of them, without > labeling or naming them. Hardness, as Ken explained, is real. It is > experienced through the bodysense. Hardness of a table or hardness > appearing in the body is the same, it is just hardness. You do not > have to call it ruupa. but we cannot experience the hardness of the table without a table. So that hardness have a dependent condition and abides without some substantial reality by its own side. Until now I resist to calling them "real". What do you mean with the word "real"? - if you mean "real" to the eradication of concept "table", then I can agree. However, this eradication of the concept "table" still is not the experience of emptiness which embrace the table-emptiness. Why?. Because the experience of the emptiness of the table only can exists while there is emptiness of "I", -self. > "They are not a > person, not a thing which can stay, they are nåma and rúpa which > arise and then fall away immediately. This is the truth which can be > directly experienced, this is the “world” in the ariyan discipline." > > Thus this explain a little more what you want to know? Please tell me. not sure! :) Maybe I don't explain myself, I'm sorry very much in that case. To me, in a first look, there is an skillfull mean called the explanation of citta, nama and rupa, in order to understand the -self delusion. I understand all them are insubstantial realities, only names to explain what belongs to nobody and sustained by nothing at all, In this sense, I don't care about nama, rupa and the rest. However, my interest exist when I read that it is not only an skillful means to enter in the stream but also exists the discriminative experience of these things appearing in higher states of process (I think was anagamin... I don't remember). best, #103638 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:02 pm Subject: Sutta Panha dhammasaro Good friends all, [Excerpt] "There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There are questions that should be answered categorically [straightforwardly yes, no, this, that]. There are questions that should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer [defining or redefining the terms]. There are questions that should be answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions." [End excerpt] peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103639 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:54 pm Subject: Re: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Good Friend Chuck, > ......... snip >.... Btw, I'm sure you've told me before, but would you mind saying again who your ajahn is and telling us a little about him. > C: Phra Maha Prasert Pasittho, Thero is in his seventies. During the Viet Nam War, he worked for the US military in Thailand. That is when he learned to read and write English. He has worked in other countries. He was married. His Upajjhaya is His Holiness, The Supreme Patriarch of the Thai Sangha. Today, he spends most of his day training men to be temporary monks and continues the training after they ordain. The training is both informal and formal classes In addition he performs the various rites and rituals; such as, business blessings, house blessings, wedding blessing, et cetera. His kuti is three or four to the left of His Holiness' kuti. ......... snip > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103640 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:02 pm Subject: Re: Pure Merit! dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > > > > > > > > ................ snip > > > > > The young brahman Magha once asked the Blessed Buddha: > > > Giving food, where would the offering be most purified for the donor? > > > The Blessed One answered: If any open-handed householder, a lordly giver, Magha, seeking merit, looking for merit, sacrifices, giving food and drink to others, such one would achieve most merit, if the recipient is pure and Noble. > > > > C: > > > > 1. The merit I obtain depends on the pureness of the recipient? True? > ... > S: True. > .... > > > > 2. Does not my intention enter into the equation? No? > ... > S: Yes, very much so. > > If one's intention is just to get a lot of merit for oneself, such > as for a happy rebirth, no matter who the recipient, there won't be > much (if any) merit.... > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > ... C: This teaching I do not understand. It seems to me it should not matter whether the recipient is pure. What should be most important are my intentions as described above. Oh well, perhaps tomorrow a light will come on??? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103641 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship dhammasaro Good friend Howard, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Chuck - > > In a message dated 12/18/2009 12:56:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > dhammasaro@... writes: > > The Buddha's standpoint can be illustrated with the help of a simile. He > was like a lonely man who was lost in the fearful wilderness of sa.msaara > and earnestly sought a way out. As he had to spend a long time in this vast > terrible forest he had to learn a great deal about the forest itself. To > survive he had to learn about edible and poisonous plants and fruits; he had > to learn the habits and habitats of wild animals; he had to climb trees in > order to discover in which direction there were signs of a human settlement, > etc. But at long last, when he did discover a straight path leading out of > the wilderness, he thought, quite rightly, that it was a waste of time to > teach about the ways of the forest to others who are also lost in the > wilderness. It is most useful and urgent if he devoted his time and energy to > point out the path to other suffering beings. This is exactly the function of > a Buddha. Therefore he refrained from teaching what was irrelevant to > emancipation. This clearly shows that the Buddha is far superior to other > arahants regarding knowledge about matters not directly related to Nibbana. > ================================= > First, Chuck, just a greeting from me! (We haven't "talked" > yet. :-) C: Pleasant greeting back. > Secondly, I think this was a really interesting post of yours, and I want to > mention that the part I copied above was a really wonderful simile in my estimation. Thanks! :-) > C: Yes, it is. Thanks for your comments. > With metta, > Howard > ... snip metta (maitri), Chuck #103642 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:59 pm Subject: Re: The Life Span of a Citta dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friends all... > > It is a mind-moment (cittakkhana). > > So, how long is a mind-moment. > > Please no extraneous stuff. Just simply answer the question. If you can not, please practice "noble silence." > > Very sincere thanks. > > peace... > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > .................................. Buddhist philosophy has hit upon a thought-moment of three instants as the ultimate standard of the measurement of time which, after all, in its last analysis, is reducible to a succession of mental states. The thought-moment is computed by them as between a billionth and two billionth part of the time occupied by the snapping of one's finger, or a wink of one's eye (Ledi Sawadaw's Comy., p. 180). ... From their own standard Buddhists apparently deduce the life-term of material things, fot the purpose of measuring the duration of an object. from my copy of: Compendium of Philosophy Pali Text Society Translation Series No. 2 1995 Notes on pages 125 & 126. #103643 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:13 pm Subject: Re: Printing posts dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: #103615 > ... Warm thanks for information. metta (maitri), Chuck #103644 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship kenhowardau Hi Howard, --- <. . .> H: > I think this was a really interesting post of yours, and I want to mention that the part I copied above was a really wonderful simile in my estimation. Thanks! --- I wonder if you know what you are agreeing with. Chuck's rendering of the Buddhadhamma is "keep the precepts and meditate." He believes that right understanding is only for Buddhas. Surely you wouldn't go that far, would you? Ken H > In a message dated 12/18/2009 12:56:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > dhammasaro@... writes: > > The Buddha's standpoint can be illustrated with the help of a simile. He > was like a lonely man who was lost in the fearful wilderness of sa.msaara > and earnestly sought a way out. As he had to spend a long time in this vast > terrible forest he had to learn a great deal about the forest itself. To > survive he had to learn about edible and poisonous plants and fruits; he had > to learn the habits and habitats of wild animals; he had to climb trees in > order to discover in which direction there were signs of a human settlement, > etc. But at long last, when he did discover a straight path leading out of > the wilderness, he thought, quite rightly, that it was a waste of time to > teach about the ways of the forest to others who are also lost in the > wilderness. It is most useful and urgent if he devoted his time and energy to > point out the path to other suffering beings. This is exactly the function of > a Buddha. Therefore he refrained from teaching what was irrelevant to > emancipation. This clearly shows that the Buddha is far superior to other > arahants regarding knowledge about matters not directly related to Nibbana. > #103645 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and chuck) - In a message dated 12/18/2009 11:22:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, --- <. . .> H: > I think this was a really interesting post of yours, and I want to mention that the part I copied above was a really wonderful simile in my estimation. Thanks! --- I wonder if you know what you are agreeing with. Chuck's rendering of the Buddhadhamma is "keep the precepts and meditate." He believes that right understanding is only for Buddhas. Surely you wouldn't go that far, would you? -------------------------------------------------- I would not. But I don't see Chuck as having done so either, at least not as expressed in the material I quoted. I see him talking about the simsapa leaves in the Buddha's hand versus those not in his hand. --------------------------------------------------- Ken H ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103646 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:38 pm Subject: Re: The Perfections dhammasaro Good friend Christine, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > > Hello all > > Are the 10 Paramis or Perfections clearly mentioned in the Suttas ... particularly where the Bodhisatta labouriously cultivated them over many lifetimes - or is it in later teachings? > > References would be appreciated. > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > ---Life is only as long as an out breath .. if you don't breathe in again--- > ... C: parami, paramita [paaramii, paaramitaa]: Perfection of the character. A group of ten qualities developed over many lifetimes by a bodhisatta, which appear as a group in the Pali canon only in the Jataka ("Birth Stories") Web site: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html#pq Trust the above helps. metta (maitri), Chuck #103647 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:15 pm Subject: Re: The Life Span of a Citta dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friends all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > > Good friends all... > > > > It is a mind-moment (cittakkhana). > > > > So, how long is a mind-moment. > > > > Please no extraneous stuff. Just simply answer the question. If you can not, please practice "noble silence." > > > > Very sincere thanks. > > > > peace... > > > > metta (maitri), > > > > Chuck > > > .................................. > > Buddhist philosophy has hit upon a thought-moment of three instants as the ultimate standard of the measurement of time which, after all, in its last analysis, is reducible to a succession of mental states. The thought-moment is computed by them as between a billionth and two billionth part of the time occupied by the snapping of one's finger, or a wink of one's eye (Ledi Sawadaw's Comy., p. 180). > > ... > > From their own standard Buddhists apparently deduce the life-term of material things, fot the purpose of measuring the duration of an object. > > from my copy of: > > Compendium of Philosophy > Pali Text Society > Translation Series No. 2 > 1995 > > Notes on pages 125 & 126. > ... C: 4. Thought-processes According to Abhidhamma ordinarily there is no moment when we do not experience a particular kind of consciousness, hanging on to some object - whether physical of mental. The time-limit of such a consciousness is termed one thought-moment. The rapidity of the succession of such thought-moments is hardly conceivable by the ken of human knowledge. Books state that within the brief duration of a flash of lightning, or in the twinkling of an eye billions of thought-moments may arise and perish. Each thought-moment consists of three minor instants (khanas). They are uppāda (arising or genesis), thiti (static or development), and bhanga (cessation or dissolution). Birth, decay, and death* correspond to these three states. The interval between birth and death is regarded as decay. Immediately after the cessation stage of a thought-moment there results the genesis stage of the subsequent thought-moment. Thus each unit of consciousness perishes conditioning another, transmitting at the same time all its potentialities to its successor. There is, therefore, a continuous flow of consciousness like a stream without any interruption. Abhidhammattha-Sangaha of Anuruddhācariya A manual of ABHIDHAMMA Edited in the original Pali Text with English Translation and Explanatory Notes by Nārada Thera, Vājirārāma, Colombo CHAPTER IV - Analysis of Thought-Processes #103648 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:33 pm Subject: Re: The Life Span of a Citta dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: #103647 > > > CHAPTER IV - Analysis of Thought-Processes > ... C: Kamma produces material phenomena at each sub-moment among the three sub-moments of consciousness - arising, presence, and dissolution - starting with the arising sub-moment of the rebirth-linking consciousness; it continues to do so throughout the course of existence up to seventeen mind-moments preceding the death consciousness. from page 156 of A comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma: the Abhidhammattha sangaha of Ācariya ...‎ Anuruddha,Bhikkhu Bodhi #103649 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:25 pm Subject: Action Determines! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Behaviour determines the State of all Beings! The young brahmins V asettha and Bh aradvaja once asked Blessed Buddha : What makes a brahmin a brahmin? Whereto the Blessed One responded: Not by pure descent from seven generations of ancestors does one become a brahmin, and neither by family descent does one become a non-brahmin. By action one becomes a brahmin. By action one also becomes a non-brahmin. By action one becomes a farmer. By action one becomes a craftsman. By action one becomes a merchant. By action one becomes a servant. By action one becomes a thief too. By action one becomes a killer too. By action one becomes a priest. By action one becomes even a king. Knowing the fruit of causal effects of any action, the wise gains complete understanding of conditional origination and sees this action as it really is! By action is all phenomena determined, by action the world goes on, and by action the people go on. Beings are bounded, conditioned & created by their behaviour! By self-taming, by self-control, & by living the Noble life, only by this supremely pure state does one becomes a brahmin. Whoever is endowed with the three knowledges (te-vijja ), at peace, <..> Sutta-Nipata verses 650-656 Edited excerpt. <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #103650 From: Ken O Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Alex >Please clarify this point. According to your views, is it acceptable to develop *present moment awareness of namarupa happening now? Or do you just stick to sutamayapanna? KO: Yes. we need to learn from books and listening in order to develop awareness of nama rupa. Pse do know that study is not just on books, it is also about studying nama and rupa when they are present. This practise is about breaking out the strangulations of sakkaya ditthi, later on to Arahatship, We must break this habit of conceptualisation, we conceive self which is a conceptualisation of being in aggregates. When we see a new beautiful car, it is just visible object. When we keep thinking it as a car, then we are placing a being/self on the car which is actually a visible rupa. That is sakkaya ditthi. Cheers Ken O #103651 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:02 am Subject: Don't Later Fall Into Regret. This Our Message To You. dhammasaro Good friends all, [Extract] "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma. "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." [End extract] Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.073.than.html Discussion? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103652 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:31 am Subject: Noble Silence; Was Noble Silence dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al ... snip > > > > Good friend Sarah, et al > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Chuck, (& Vince*) > ... snip > [Friday] > > C: Just received a phone call from a friend. He just returned from a pilgrimage to India. He will pick me up tomorrow and take me to my ajahn. So, again will not visit the Foundation. Perhaps I will prevail and we will visit the Foundation the following Saturday. > [The next day: Saturday] C: Well, I misunderstood my friend. He is in the area on business and spent an hour with me before returning to work. It certainly is nice to have friends who can identify themselves with titles on my behalf - bhikkhu, barrister, general... in this case, barrister. I had an appointment for dental x-rays on Monday at the Bangkok General Hospital. He said he would take me. Via internet I got directions and phone numbers. He called and, guess what? I go tomorrow, Sunday, for dental x-rays!!! He will be here tomorrow, Sunday, at eight AM sharp!!! [And, from past years of experience, I had better be ready by 7:45 AM!!!] Perhaps, one less day in mild, intermittent dental pain. ... snip Now, wasn't that earth-shattering news!!! [beeg Texican grins] peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103653 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:43 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the Book of Discipline (Vinaya IV, Mahå-vagga VI, on Medicines, 237) that the general Síha attained enlightenment after having listened to the Buddha. He offered a meal which included meat to the Buddha and the order of monks. The Niga.n.thas, who were of another teaching, found fault with the offering of meat. We read that after the meal the Buddha explained to the monks: “Monks, one should not knowingly make use of meat killed on purpose (for one). Whoever should make use of it, there is an offence of wrong-doing. I allow you, monks, fish and meat that are quite pure in three respects: if they are not seen, heard, suspected (to have been killed on purpose for a monk).” This answer may not be satisfactory to everyone. One may wonder whether one indirectly promotes the slaughtering of animals by buying meat. It would be good if there were no slaughtering at all, no violence. The world, however, is not an Utopia. Animals are slaughtered and their meat is sold. If one in the given situation buys meat and eats it, one does not commit an act of violence. While one kills there is akusala citta rooted in aversion; killing is an act of violence. While one eats meat there may be attachment or dislike of it, but there is no act of violence towards a living being. The observing of precepts is included in good moral conduct. When one undertakes the observance of precepts one makes the resolution to train oneself in abstaining from akusala. There are precepts for monks, novices and nuns, and there are precepts for layfollowers. At the present time the order of nuns does not exist any more, although we can in Buddhist countries still see women who have retired from worldly life and try to live as a nun. The monks, as we will see, are under the obligation to observe many rules. For laypeople there are five precepts, but on special occasions they can undertake eight precepts. The precepts are not worded in the form of commandments, forbidding people to commit akusala. They are principles of training one can undertake with the aim to have less akusala. The five moral precepts layfollowers can observe are the foundation for good moral conduct. When one undertakes them one makes the resolution to train oneself in abstaining from the following unwholesome deeds: killing living beings, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying and the taking of intoxicants, including alcoholic drinks. When one is in circumstances that one could commit an evil deed through body and speech but one abstains from it with kusala citta, there is good moral conduct. ****** Nina. #103654 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:33 am Subject: What Was Not Said !!! dhammasaro Good friends all, "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata." Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.023.than.html Discussion? metta (maitri), Chuck #103655 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:09 am Subject: That's How You Should Train Yourselves... dhammasaro Good friends all, [Excerpt] "In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering. [End excerpt] Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn20/sn20.007.than.html Discussion? metta (maitri), Chuck #103656 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, Thank you for your reply. >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > >Please clarify this point. According to your views, is it acceptable to develop *present moment awareness of namarupa happening now? Or do you just stick to sutamayapanna? > > KO: Yes. we need to learn from books and listening in order to >develop awareness of nama rupa. Pse do know that study is not just >on books, it is also about studying nama and rupa when they are >present. My question is: how exactly does one is "studying nama and rupa when they are present." How does one develop awareness of present namarupa? With metta, Alex #103657 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:53 am Subject: Re: What Was Not Said !!! truth_aerator Hello Charles, I agree. IMHO things that were not said in sutta-pitaka were not deemed necessary by the Buddha. Here is a potential problem with the commentaries who supply extra detail, even if what they may say is right (but it could be wrong!) it may be superfluos information - and at best it is 2nd sort information. Buddha was the best! With metta, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friends all, > > > > "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. > #103658 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, (pt, Howard & all), I thought of your good analogy and Howard's questioning of this detail when I just read the quote below about sense objects appearing through the mind door as if they were present objects. Shadows.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: > Here is a simile which might help sorting nimitta out a bit, > The sense-door process would be the sender end in a fax communication session, and it would send a page, one of the seven visaya rùpas (visible... tangible rùpa) impinging on the corresponding pasada rùpas (eye... body rùpa). > As soon as the page/visaya rùpa is sent it self-destroy itself, it falls away. > > The recipient would be the mind-door, bhavanga citta, via sañña, and it would receive the fac-simile (as rùpa nimitta, the shadow of a reality) of the original page which would be just as good as the original, which is no longer in existence. <....> ***** S: From the Atthasaalinii (Expositor, p96, PTS): "Of the six objects each comes into the avenues of two 'doors': the visible object (light and colour) comes into the avenue of the mind-door the moment it strikes the sensitive organ, that is to say, it causes vibration of the life-continuum. The case with sound, odour, taste, and touch as objects is similar. Just as a bird flying through the sky and alighting on a tree touches the branch of the tree and its shadow strikes the ground, the touching with the branch and the spreading of the shadow taking place in one moment, simultaneously, so the contact with the sensitive organ, etc. by the presented object of sense is sumultaneous with its coming into the avenue of the mind-door through its ability to cause the life-continuum to vibrate." [S: The simile of the shadow is used elsewhere, such as in the Milinda Pa~nha (which I've quoted before) to explain how rebirth occurs instantaneously, irrespective of the new 'destination': K.Milinda, The Cutting off of Perplexity, 7th Division: "II.7.5: Simultaneous Arising in Different Places {Miln. 82-3} "What do you think, your majesty, if two birds fly in the sky and one sits in a high tree, and the other in a low tree; if these happen at the same time, the shadow of which one would appear on the ground first, and which one later?" "They are the same, venerable sir." "Just so, your majesty, if someone passes away and is reborn in the Brahma world, and if another passes away and is reborn in Kashmir, they happen in the same time."] Metta Sarah ======== #103659 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: #103658 > Dear Sarah, all, But how can two consciousness (sense door and mind door) happen at the *same* time? With metta, Alex #103660 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Hi Alex, (Scott & all) Early here in Hong Kong ....so for once we're on-line at the same time...:) --- On Sun, 20/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: > S: From the Atthasaalinii (Expositor, p96, PTS): > > "Of the six objects each comes into the avenues of two 'doors': the visible object (light and colour) comes into the avenue of the mind-door the moment it strikes the sensitive organ, that is to say, it causes vibration of the life-continuum. The case with sound, odour, taste, and touch as objects is similar. Just as a bird flying through the sky and alighting on a tree touches the branch of the tree and its shadow strikes the ground, the touching with the branch and the spreading of the shadow taking place in one moment, simultaneously, so the contact with the sensitive organ, etc. by the presented object of sense is sumultaneous with its coming into the avenue of the mind-door through its ability to cause the life-continuum to vibrate." > >A:But how can two consciousness (sense door and mind door) happen at the *same* time? .... S: Good question! I understood that as the mind door process follows so very rapidly, they are as if it were 'simultaneous' and this is why the visible object, etc. is referred to as 'present object' when its characteristic appears through the mind door, even though, strictly speaking, the visible object has fallen away. It's quite a difficult passage and sometimes there are subtle nuances lost in the English translation. Scott or others may like to investigate further with the Pali and context of the passage. Metta Sarah ======== #103661 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:19 pm Subject: Re: More questions about citta & awareness process truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: #103660 > > Dear Sarah, all, Thank you for your reply. So what you mean is that these two processes happen so quickly (next to each other) that it is as if they are simulteneously. Question: Is it possible to be aware of that? If so, then how? How exactly does one become aware of these realities happening now? With metta, Alex #103662 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Multiple mental states happening at a time? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Sun, 13/12/09, A T wrote: >As you know, consciousness (viññÄ?ṇa) cannot occur without conascent feeling (vedanÄ?), perception (saññÄ?) and volition(saá¹…khÄ?ra). >Lets say there is eye-consciousness. Exactly at that time there is eye-vedanÄ?. Eye-consciousness cannot occur without eye-vedanÄ? being present as well. Right? VedanÄ? is universal cetasika, and citta (viññÄ?ṇa) always occurs with universal cetasikas. ... S: Right! .... >What Ä?yatana is eye-consciousness and what Ä?yatana is eye-vedanÄ?? >eye-consciousness is manÄ?yatana and eye-vedanÄ? is dhammÄ?yatana. ... S: Right! .... >So it means that at least four Ä?yatana are simultaneously present - cakkhuÄ?yatana + rÅ«pÄ?yatana and manÄ?yatana + dhammÄ?yatana (feeling and perception of the eye, etc) . ... S: Right - at the moment of seeing, 4 ayatanas 'meet' together for such a moment of experiencing visible object to occur. ... >If we analyze by 18 dhÄ?tu, then we have: cakkhudhÄ?tu+ rÅ«padhÄ?tu and cakkhuviññÄ?ṇa dhÄ?tu + dhammadhÄ?tu ... S: Right! ... >ManoviññÄ?ṇadhÄ?tu + cakkhuviññÄ?ṇa dhÄ?tu (one consciousness) + dhammadhÄ?tu (another mental object which includes conascent rÅ«pa-saññÄ?, eye-vedanÄ?, etc) ... S: Cakkhuvi~n~naa.na dhaatu is not included in manovi~n~naa.na dhaatu. The latter (mind-consciousness element) consists of all cittas which are not dvi-pa~nca vi~n~naa.nas or mano-dhaatu. [See U.P. "ayatanas" for more detail on the distinction between ayatanas and dhatus etc.] ... >In other words, considering that x-viññÄ?ṇa never happens without x-vedanÄ?, x-saññÄ?, etc it means that at least two mental states/objects occur ... S: There are always at least 7 cetasikas, the 'universals' arising with each moment of consciousness, as you know... ... >manÄ?yatana + dhammÄ?yatana or ManodhÄ?tu + cakkhuviññÄ?ṇadhÄ?tu + dhammadhÄ?tu = ManoviññÄ?ṇadhÄ?tu ... S: This is not correct at all and confusing. 1. The meaning of ayatanas and dhatus is not the same, so we need to be careful. The ayatanas refer to the 'meeting' or 'coming together' of various dhammas or dhatus. 2. Manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu does not refer to any dhammas included in manodhaatu, cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatu or dhammadhaatu - it refers just to those cittas not included in the other (first two) categories. It doesn't include cetasikas. Please let me know if this still isn't clear. Metta Sarah p.s As Nina mentioned, the diacritical signs for the Paali may be difficult for people to read when reproduced. ======= #103663 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about citta & awareness process sarahprocter... Hi Alex, A last quick one before I dash off to an early morning yoga class... --- On Sun, 20/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >Thank you for your reply. So what you mean is that these two processes happen so quickly (next to each other) that it is as if they are simulteneously. >Question: Is it possible to be aware of that? If so, then how? >How exactly does one become aware of these realities happening now? ... S: When there is awareness of visible object, the awareness is just aware of its characteristic. It doesn't mind or notice whether it is visible object appearing through the sense door or immediately succeeding mind door. We know that if the eye door process was not followed by mind door processes, we wouldn't be able to think about what has been seen, but only the Buddha (or great arahats) could fully understand and be aware of all the dhammas in the rapid number of processes that follow one another in a split second. As for becoming aware of any realities now, such as seeing and visible object, just keep questioning and considering as you're doing without any 'trying' to be aware or 'trying' to get any results as this kind of lobha is a big hindrance to the development of awareness. Oops, almost 7 a.m. - time for me to go... Nice chatting with you on a Sunday morning, Alex. Have a good weekend... Metta Sarah ===== #103664 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Multiple mental states happening at a time? truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, > sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alex, > S: There are always at least 7 cetasikas, the 'universals' arising >with each moment of consciousness, as you know... A quick question: Do these 7 universals focus on the sense base, external object, process of sense cognition, or all 3? With metta, Alex #103665 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:17 pm Subject: Re: What Was Not Said !!! dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Charles, > > > I agree. IMHO things that were not said in sutta-pitaka were not deemed necessary by the Buddha. Here is a potential problem with the commentaries who supply extra detail, even if what they may say is right (but it could be wrong!) it may be superfluos information - and at best it is 2nd sort information. Buddha was the best! > > With metta, > > Alex > > C: As you only mentioned the sutta-pitaka, you, then, ignore the vinaya-pitaka and abhidhamma-pitaka? metta (maitri), Chuck > >..... deleted by C #103666 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now truth_aerator Hi Sarah, all, When you have the time. > sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > A last quick one before I dash off to an early morning yoga class... > > >S: As for becoming aware of any realities now, such as seeing and >visible object, just keep questioning and considering as you're >doing without any 'trying' to be aware or 'trying' to get any >results as this kind of lobha is a big hindrance to the development >of awareness. So it is alright to question oneself "what is happening now? [in kaya, vedana, citta or dhamma satipatthana] I understand that it may be wrong to pick one satipatthana or to label what is perceived. But it is alright to be aware of whatever namarupa is happening now. So some sort of development is taking place. One doesn't just stop reading, forgets everything, and goes about daily business. One studies, remembers and tries to be aware of realities happening now. Right? > Oops, almost 7 a.m. - time for me to go... > > Nice chatting with you on a Sunday morning, Alex. Have a good >weekend... > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== You too. With metta, Alex #103667 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:02 pm Subject: Re: What Was Not Said !!! truth_aerator Hi Chuck, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Alex, et al > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Hello Charles, > > > > > > I agree. IMHO things that were not said in sutta-pitaka were not deemed necessary by the Buddha. Here is a potential problem with the commentaries who supply extra detail, even if what they may say is right (but it could be wrong!) it may be superfluos information - and at best it is 2nd sort information. Buddha was the best! > > > > With metta, > > > > Alex > > > > > > C: As you only mentioned the sutta-pitaka, you, then, ignore the vinaya-pitaka and abhidhamma-pitaka? > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > > > > >..... deleted by C > Buddha did say that Sutta-Vinaya is the last word, in DN16. 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' ""In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html#t-37 With metta, Alex #103668 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:04 pm Subject: Happy Harmlessness! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Harming others will Hurt yourself! Therefore did the Buddha point out Harmlessness as the best protection: I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of all bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend of the many-footed! Anguttara Nikaya 4.67 As I am, so are others... As others are, so am I... Having thus identified self with others, Never Harm anyone, nor make any hurt. Sutta-Nipata 705 Among tigers, lions, leopards & bears I lived in the jungle. No one was frightened of me, nor did I fear anyone... Uplifted by such universal friendliness, I enjoyed the forest. Finding great solace in that sweetly silenced solitude� Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #103669 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Multiple mental states happening at a time? sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, --- On Sun, 20/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >> S: There are always at least 7 cetasikas, the 'universals' arising >with each moment of consciousness, as you know... A:> A quick question: Do these 7 universals focus on the sense base, external object, process of sense cognition, or all 3? ... S: A quick question doesn't always mean a quick answer! a)The cetasikas (mental factors) which arise with a citta, always including these 7 universals, always arise at the same physical base as that citta. So, the cetasikas do not "focus" on the physical base, but rather, the base is a conditioning factor for the citta and cetasikas by being the place of arising (in all planes of existence where there are namas and rupas). In the case of seeing consciousness, eye-sense/eye-base (cakkhu-vatthu) is the physical base (vatthu). In the case of the other cittas in the eye-door process and for all mind-door cittas, the vatthu is the hadaya-vatthu (heart-base). b) The citta and its accompanying cetasikas experience an aarama.na (object). This aarama.na may be a reality or a concept, an internal or an external object. For example, seeing sees a reality, visible object, an external object. I wouldn't use the word "focus" for the way that most the cetasikas experience the object. It can be used specifically for the way say ekagatta (concentration) experiences the object. c) As to the last part of the question, you ask whether the universals "focus" on the "process of sense cognition". At the moment of seeing, only visible object is seen. In a later mind-door process cittas may think about any concept, including the "process of sense cognition". In this case, the universals would again experience the same object as the cittas. Of course, in the Buddha's case, all the cittas and accompanying factors in a "process of sense cognition" were of course directly known through the mind door processes accompanied by the universals, panna, sati and many other mental factors. I hope this helps. Pls ask again if not. Metta Sarah ======== #103670 From: Ken O Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Alex Whatever rupa that impinge on the sense cittas (excluding mind door), it always paramatha and not conceptual. It is just visible object. A table is through the mind door and not the sense door. What impinge of the sense cittas is just rupa without a self. What craving arise after the impingement is due to kilesa. It is because not understanding it as not self in rupas, craving arise Seeing is seeing, it cannot be hearing, it cannot be thinking. Thinking is through mind door. So whatever we think what will happen tomorow is mind door process and not sense door process. Cheers Ken O #103671 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now sarahprocter... Hi Alex & all, --- On Sun, 20/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >>S: As for becoming aware of any realities now, such as seeing and >visible object, just keep questioning and considering as you're >doing without any 'trying' to be aware or 'trying' to get any >results as this kind of lobha is a big hindrance to the development >of awareness. A:> So it is alright to question oneself "what is happening now? [in kaya, vedana, citta or dhamma satipatthana] .... S: Anything is OK, it's conditioned that way. At such a moment of questioning, there can be awareness of thinking as just thinking or any other reality. As long as we realise that such thinking is different from directly being aware of realities, it's OK. .... >I understand that it may be wrong to pick one satipatthana or to label what is perceived. ... S: It may not be wrong but it should be known that this is just thinking - quite different from being aware of a reality. If one thinks that actually thinks that this is the Path - picking one satipatthana or labelling - then it's wrong. .... >But it is alright to be aware of whatever namarupa is happening now. So some sort of development is taking place. One doesn't just stop reading, forgets everything, and goes about daily business. One studies, remembers and tries to be aware of realities happening now. Right? ... S: For me, I just study when there are conditions to do so, reflect on what I've heard or read, again when there are conditions to do so, and go about my daily business normally without trying to forget, remember or anything else. I find that what I've heard, read and considered in the past are sometimes conditions for wise reflection and awareness and often not. It's a gradual path and I have confidence that the way is the understanding of conditioned realities which are so anatta at this very moment. The careful considering of what the Buddha taught 'works its way', so to speak. I can honestly say that I never feel any inclination to 'do' anything special in order for awareness to arise, not even to open books, listen to KS or discuss dhamma for this purpose. This is what is meant by developing the path factors naturally - just going about one's daily business, understanding more and more about the present moment in any circumstances. So after you've been reading, go for a walk, help in the kitchen, meet your friends and don't try to 'do' anything. You may be surprised at how often wise reflection and moments of awareness slip in to your day when 'Self doing' is taken out of the picture. Just my reflections. Nice chatting about these topics with you Alex. Metta Sarah ======== #103672 From: Ken O Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta ashkenn2k Dear Alex it is not two cittas, it is two doors working at different citta which condition one after the other. At the moment of life continuum being disturb, it is the mind door and when it strikes the five adverting citta, then it is the sense door. thanks Ken O #103673 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:34 am Subject: Re: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Sarah, et al > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > Good Friend Chuck, > > > ......... snip > > >.... Btw, I'm sure you've told me before, but would you mind saying again who your ajahn is and telling us a little about him. > > > > > C: Phra Maha Prasert Pasittho, Thero is in his seventies. During the Viet Nam War, he worked for the US military in Thailand. That is when he learned to read and write English. > > He has worked in other countries. He was married. > > His Upajjhaya is His Holiness, The Supreme Patriarch of the Thai Sangha. > > Today, he spends most of his day training men to be temporary monks and continues the training after they ordain. The training is both informal and formal classes > > In addition he performs the various rites and rituals; such as, business blessings, house blessings, wedding blessing, et cetera. > > His kuti is three or four to the left of His Holiness' kuti. > > > ......... snip > > > > > Metta > > > > Sarah > > ===== > > > > peace... > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > ... C: Actually, currently I have two ajahns. The second was the junior of the two monks assigned to me when I was at Wat Thai Washington DC. He is Phra Maha Thanat "Handy' Inthisan, Thero, PhD Qoute: HANDY is a simple monk who serves Thai and American society. He live in the Thai monastery in Silver Spring, Maryland since 1992. He is Yoga and Meditation master, especially Theravadin tradition. http://www.thanat.iirt.net/ He is much more than a simple monk!!! FWIW, I have a photo, taken during my second ordination period, of both of my ajahns talking together at Wat Thai Mongkoltepmunee near Philadelphia. We were there during Māgha Pūjā or Makha Bucha. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103674 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:53 am Subject: Re: What Was Not Said !!! dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > > Good friend Alex, et al > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > > > Hello Charles, > > > > > > > > > I agree. IMHO things that were not said in sutta-pitaka were not deemed necessary by the Buddha. Here is a potential problem with the commentaries who supply extra detail, even if what they may say is right (but it could be wrong!) it may be superfluos information - and at best it is 2nd sort information. Buddha was the best! > > > > > > With metta, > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > C: As you only mentioned the sutta-pitaka, you, then, ignore the vinaya-pitaka and abhidhamma-pitaka? > > > > metta (maitri), > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > >..... deleted by C > > > > Buddha did say that Sutta-Vinaya is the last word, in DN16. > > 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' > > ""In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html#t-37 > > > With metta, > > Alex > ... Good friend Alex, Please help me understand what you state. Please forgive me; but, I did not understand your last response. I repeat my initial question: Quote: C: As you only mentioned the sutta-pitaka, you, then, ignore the vinaya-pitaka and abhidhamma-pitaka? End quote. Let me restate the questions: 1. You ignore the vinaya-pitaka? Yes or No, please. 2. You ignore the abhidhamma-pitaka? Yes or No, please. 3. What is "Sutta-Vinaya"? I can not find it listed anywhere. [bummers] Warm thanks for your continued help. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103675 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:17 am Subject: Developing the Path Factors Naturally: was More questions about awareness now dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al S: For me, I just study when there are conditions to do so, reflect on what I've heard or read, again when there are conditions to do so, and go about my daily business normally without trying to forget, remember or anything else. I find that what I've heard, read and considered in the past are sometimes conditions for wise reflection and awareness and often not. It's a gradual path and I have confidence that the way is the understanding of conditioned realities which are so anatta at this very moment. The careful considering of what the Buddha taught 'works its way', so to speak. I can honestly say that I never feel any inclination to 'do' anything special in order for awareness to arise, not even to open books, listen to KS or discuss dhamma for this purpose. This is what is meant by developing the path factors naturally - just going about one's daily business, understanding more and more about the present moment in any circumstances. So after you've been reading, go for a walk, help in the kitchen, meet your friends and don't try to 'do' anything. You may be surprised at how often wise reflection and moments of awareness slip in to your day when 'Self doing' is taken out of the picture. Just my reflections. Nice chatting about these topics with you Alex. Metta Sarah ............... C: Sincere warm thanks for your above paragraphs. It is how I usually operate for many years. Of course, in the mundane area, I sometimes need to force study, etc. But, in the long run, "just going about one's daily business, understanding more and more about the present moment in any circumstances." Sincere warm thanks. peace...ta (maitri), Chuck met #103676 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:26 am Subject: Re: Re[6]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 19-dec-2009, om 2:40 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > my concern is not really about emptiness but about the possibility of > integrating abhidhamma in the practice. Thanks again for the > interchange. > > >> V: I think if some person is experiencing rupa, then he should >> realize >> the emptiness of rupa. >> ----------- >> N: No, not yet. Emptiness is nothing else but anattaness. See Middle >> Length Sayings, III, Su~n~natavagga, Division on Emptiness. All >> dhammas are anatta, they are empty of self. But this is not yet >> realized in the beginning. > > V: .... there are different degrees of depth and > stabilization of the emptiness experience. According "A Survey...", > in higher states of realization, naama and rupa arises as a > discriminative experience. Then, for a person in an initial state > of progress, the nama-and-rupa can be so unknown as the heavens gods, > the recollection of previous births, etc. ---------- N: As to: naama and rupa arises as a discriminative experience, I would say: Naama and ruupa arise and pass away, but the characteristic of impermamence cannot be known yet. First their different characteristics have to be known. Naama and ruupa are not a discriminative experience, pa~n~naa can discriminate their true nature. First there have to be intellectual understanding of naama and ruupa as different from concepts. A table is a concept, the elements of hardness, heat or cold are realities. We can learn that a whole, a concept, does not exist, it is only an object of thinking. --------- > >> N: Naama and ruupa are just names to denote realities.... > > V: I agree. For this reason I feel quite uncomfortable calling them > "ultimate realities". ....Whatever they can > be, finally it cannot belong to nobody and cannot be sustained by > nothing at all For this reason, until now to me they are an only > skillful means. However, my interest grows when it seems they also > can be experienced in higher states of progress. -------- N: The notion of ultimate realities is just used to distinguish them from concepts that are only mind constructs and do not really exist. Nama and rupa, mental phenomena and physical phenomena, arise and pass away all the time, no matter it is known or not known. -------- >> N: ....Hardness, as Ken explained, is real. It is >> experienced through the bodysense. Hardness of a table or hardness >> appearing in the body is the same, it is just hardness. You do not >> have to call it ruupa. > > V: but we cannot experience the hardness of the table without a table. -------- N: Just touch and no need to 'think' about what appears through the bodysense. No matter you touch a table, a plate a body, the element of hardness can be experienced. Just hardness, no difference where you touch. --------- > V: So that hardness have a dependent condition and abides without > some substantial reality by its own side. Until now I resist to > calling them "real". > > What do you mean with the word "real"? ------- N: Hardness is real, it arises and falls away. It can be directly experienced, no matter how you call it. We can change names, but realities do not change by calling them with different names. Hardness is always hardness, no matter what you call it. A table is a concept and it seems to stay, does it not? Not concepts but only realities have the characteristic of anattaaness or emptiness. We cannot speak of table-emptiness. ------- > V: my interest exist when I read that it is not only an skillful > means to enter in the stream but also exists the discriminative > experience of these things appearing in higher states of process . > -------------- N: You are interested in Abhidhamma and practice. An example is given by the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28). First this: The elements of earth (hardness or softness), fire (heat or cold) and wind (motion or pressure) can be experienced by touch, but the element of water, cohesion, can only be experienced through the mind. There is hardness (earth) in the body, but also outside. When we touch hardness there is no difference, but we do not like to hear this. We find the body very special. We cling very much to the body, but vipassanaa pa~n~naa can be developed to realize that there is not the whole body; that what we take for my body are only different elements which fall away immediately. Now, Vipassanaa pa~n`naa cannot be developed immediately, only when there is first more intelllectual understanding of dhammas. We also have to understand that pa~n~naa is anattaa, it develops and arises because of its own conditions. Remember Kh Sujin: not doing anything, not trying. As is explained in the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28): So then if others abuse and scold and curse and threaten a bhikkhu, he understands thus, "This painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. That is dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact." Then he sees that contact is impermanent.." the same for feeling, sa~n~naa, san"khaarakkhandha and vi~n~naa.na. (translation of Wheel 101) We then read: And his mind enters into that very object (taking it just as an impersonal) element, and acquires confidence, steadiness and decision (herein). > Knowing that what we see or hear are just conditioned elements reminds us of the true Dhamma. We are bound to be distressed about an unpleasant experience or a loss, but when we begin to develop pa~n~naa we can gradually learn from such an experience. Nina. #103677 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What Was Not Said !!! ajahnjose My Dear Chuck, I think that Alex means the Sutta Vinaya as the Sutta Pitaka. Metta. Ajahn Jose signature Venerable Yanatharo, Ajahn Jose --- On Sun, 20/12/09, charlest wrote: > > > > C: As you only mentioned the sutta-pitaka, you, then, ignore the vinaya-pitaka and abhidhamma-pitaka? <...> #103678 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. nilovg Dear Alex (and Ken O), Op 19-dec-2009, om 1:26 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > When someone says that he observes his feelings he has to find out > > himself whether this is done with an dea of 'I am observing'. I > think > > that the word observing may be misleading. Better think of > > understanding. > > Please clarify this point. According to your views, is it > acceptable to develop *present moment awareness of namarupa > happening now? Or do you just stick to sutamayapanna? > > *What I mean by present moment awareness of namarupa happening now > is understanding and awareness of satipatthana (kaya, vedana, > citta, dhamma) happening now, -------- N: It is certainly possible, because at this moment there is touching and the expperience of hardness or cold through the bodysense. It depends on conditions whether a (beginning!) awareness arises now or not. Suttamaya pa~n~naa is considering the realities now, not just theory. I like to highlight Ken O's post, to show that correct thinking of realities is the condiiton for awareness now. Yes, it can arise. ------- N: Your other post: One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry. -------- I would have to make a special study for this and no time now. I do not believe there is a puase between maggacitta and phalacitta. The maggacitta is such powerful kamma that its vipaaka follows in the same process. ------ Nina. #103680 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What Was Not Said !!! dhammasaro Bhante Venerable Yanatharo, Ajahn Jose, et al [edited] dsg] Re: What Was Not Said !!! Bhante Venerable Yanatharo, Ajahn Jose, et al > > My Dear Chuck, I think that Alex means the Sutta Vinaya as the Sutta Pitaka. Metta. Ajahn Jose > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > C: As you only mentioned the sutta-pitaka, you, then, ignore the vinaya-pitaka and abhidhamma-pitaka? > <...> > ... Bhante Venerable Yanatharo, Ajahn Jose, Sincere warm thanks. I suspect you are correct. However, I still request a clear assertion (Yes/No) about his acceptance of the vinaya-pitaka and abhidhamma-pitaka. The clarification helps me in future discussions with good friend Alex. To me, it is the same as having a theological discussion with a congregation member of the Baptist Church, Church of the Latter Day Saints, the Seventh-day Adventist Church or the Seventh-Day Evangelist Church. I then know what theological works they accept. It does me no good to quote from the Vulgate Bible, as they do not accept that translation. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck [Edited to correct gross misspelling.] {Connie: re-edited to delete grossly non-essential repetitiveness of non-informative content} #103681 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Alex) - In a message dated 12/20/2009 2:23:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: For me, I just study when there are conditions to do so, reflect on what I've heard or read, again when there are conditions to do so, and go about my daily business normally without trying to forget, remember or anything else. I find that what I've heard, read and considered in the past are sometimes conditions for wise reflection and awareness and often not. It's a gradual path and I have confidence that the way is the understanding of conditioned realities which are so anatta at this very moment. The careful considering of what the Buddha taught 'works its way', so to speak. I can honestly say that I never feel any inclination to 'do' anything special in order for awareness to arise, not even to open books, listen to KS or discuss dhamma for this purpose. This is what is meant by developing the path factors naturally - just going about one's daily business, understanding more and more about the present moment in any circumstances. So after you've been reading, go for a walk, help in the kitchen, meet your friends and don't try to 'do' anything. You may be surprised at how often wise reflection and moments of awareness slip in to your day when 'Self doing' is taken out of the picture. ================================== The "naturalness" you speak of is, IMO, the result of developed habit. For me, for example, it is "natural" to automatically engage in introspection, being aware of my thinking, feeling, emotions, inclinations and so on with no intention and effort required. I don't need to try to engage in this - it just happens. But that was not always so. At first it was "artificial" and quite intentional, and it is still fostered by my intentional sitting for (what is basically samatha) meditation, though my sitting-meditation practice is also becoming habituated. This process reminds me much of learning to ride a bicycle: At first it is quite "studied," with much intention and attention given to one's effort, and with many false starts, but after a while it becomes semi-automatic. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103682 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Immediate rebirth dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Chris & all, > > (part 2) > > --- On Mon, 29/6/09, Christine Forsyth wrote: > > >I thought you might be interested in the response from the Venerable Bhikkh Bodhi: > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~ > <....> > >I have also found evidence for beings in this state from the reported rebirth memories of people who (without meditative experience) can recollect their previous life and death. Several cases I have read of this type report that the being, after passing away, spends some time moving about in a subtle body (identical in form with their previous body, hence with a sense of the same personal identity) until they find themselves drawn towards a particular couple, who then become their new parents. Some cases like this are included in Francis Story's book, Rebirth as Doctrine and Experience (published by the Buddhist Publcation Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka). > .... > S: With respect to Ven Bodhi, I don't see what such reportings have to do with the question of the Buddha's Teaching on death and birth. We can all report "several cases" of friends and family who report their experiences of God and Soul. Does this mean that they too should be integrated into the Theravada teachings? > > (more on the other parts another time) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > Back early in 2007, on recommendation, I purchased a number of books by Francis Story, published by the Buddhist Publication Society, including the one mentioned above, from the Mahamakuta Rajavidyalaya Foundation. It is across the road from Wat Bovonieves Vihara. To me, it appears you dismiss the book above. Is my perception correct? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103683 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:36 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives, 316, 11, 12, and commentary. nilovg Dear friends. sutta 11. < Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: doubt. nilovg Hi Howard, The idea is not that lokuttara cittas do this or that, joining the order and being reborn. It is only this particular text about four pairs of men that denotes eight types of lokuttara cittas. Op 18-dec-2009, om 20:41 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > Some ariyans were > killed. True. The dying-consciousness arose for them, and if they > were not arahats this dying-consciousness was succeeded by the > rebirth-consciousness of a next life. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > But it was not the stream-entry path & fruit states that were killed, > nor did dying-consciousness arise for them, nor were they reborn. > It is a > mistake and a mixing of categories and unclear speech to talk of an > ariyan > as path & fruit states. > --------------------------------------------------------- > > N: The lokuttara cittas were not > killed, true. > -------------------------------------------------------- > H: Yes! But ariyans were! Thus, identifying the two is an ERROR! > ------------------------------------------------------- > N: Lokuttara cittas arose and fell away. Being killed is another > moment, vipaakacitta. --------------- > > > H: Some ariyans joined the bhikkhu sangha. It wasn't paths & fruits > > that > > joined, but people! > ------- > N: It is not wrong to speak of bhikkhus, of laypeople. > --------------------------------------------- > H: But it IS wrong to speak of paths & fruits joining the bhikkhu > sangha. > ------------------------------------------------ > N: That would sound very funny, I did not say that. -------- By the texts about the four pairs of men we are reminded here that there is no person who attains enlightenment and becomes a learner and eventually a non-learner. There are lokuttara cittas accompanied by pa~n~naa that are called learner or non-learner. The pa~n~naa of the worldling can develop stage by stage so that lokuttara pa~n~naa can arise. There is no person who is the owner of pa~n~naa. -------- Nina. #103685 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetana/Manasikaro's aim in 7 universal cittas nilovg Dear Alex, Op 18-dec-2009, om 2:22 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > According to CMA, Cetana & Manasikaro exists in every citta. > > In a process of seeing, exactly where is Cetana&Manasikaro aimed at? > At a visual object (rupa), or at cakkhu-vinnana? -------- N: Cetanaa coordinates the tasks of the accompanying dhammas with regard to the object that is experienced, in this case visible object. As regards the javanacittas that arise in that process, here cetanaa has a double task: it coordinates the task of the accompanying dhammas and also it 'wills' kusala or akusala, or it is activity of kamma. Manasikara is attention to the object in this case visible object. It turns citta and the accompanying cetasikas towards the object. The object of a sense-door process cannot be seeing-consciousness. -------- > > A: In a process of mind door only, exactly where is > Cetana&Manasikaro aimed at? mano, dhamma, or manovinnana? ------- N: On the object that can be experienced through the mind-door, thus, any object, be it a sense-object or naama, a concept or nibbaana. ------ Nina. #103686 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives, 316, 11, 12, and commentary. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: "...The co. states that the loss of siila is wrong siila, wrong conduct. The first three kinds of losses are not akusala, they do not have the three characteristics. The subco. explains: they are not akusala, not impure. They do not have the three characteristics, they are abhaavadhammattaa. They are not paramattha dhammas with the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, anattaa. One cannot say of loss of relatives, of wealth and of health that these are akusala... Loss of relatives, of dear people, is not a paramattha dhamma, an ultimate reality..." Scott: This is a difficult point for many. Thinking about people, without this being tempered by understanding about paramattha dhammaa, leads to passionate views about people. Siila is not a person doing something. Siila is the presence or absence of certain dhammaa ('loss of siila is wrong siila'- still a dhamma). Some say, 'Where is your compassion? Don't you realize that there are people we are dealing with here?' Some get caught up in ideas about people, which includes ideas about a 'compassionate giver' who, more often than not, feels slighted when it is made clear that he or she doesn't really exist. It is hard to think that there is no 'my' siila. Sincerely, Scott. #103687 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:28 am Subject: Re: Cetana/Manasikaro's aim in 7 universal cittas dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: #103685 > > ... Good friend Ales, I trust you will not object to my intrusion. As I understand, there are special cases. Although you did not specify any special cases, I thought it may be worthwhile to so state for you to note for future detailed references. On the following: "As regards the javanacittas that arise in that process, here cetanaa has a double task: it coordinates the task of the accompanying dhammas and also it 'wills' kusala or akusala, or it is activity of kamma." Please note there are special cases where the above "may" not apply. for example, the case of a Buddha or an Arahant (SKT: Arhat). Also, in other special cases, one who is no longer a worldling; but, a "trainee" as it is used in some commentaries. Trust I am not confusing the issue. If I am, please advise and I shall desist. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103688 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:48 am Subject: Re: What Was Not Said !!! truth_aerator Dear Chuck, all, {cut} > > Let me restate the questions: > > 1. You ignore the vinaya-pitaka? Yes or No, please. No. > 2. You ignore the abhidhamma-pitaka? Yes or No, please. Some parts of it are good and I accept them. Some other parts I do not fully agree with. Ex: saddhanusarin & dhammanusarin existing for only one mind moment or in other words that "path & fruit are momentary". I disagree with this Abh teaching. > > > > 3. What is "Sutta-Vinaya"? I can not find it listed anywhere. [bummers] > "Discourses and Discipline". With metta, Alex #103689 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:52 am Subject: aim of cetana/manasikaro universal cetasikas truth_aerator {Cut repeated post} Dear Sarah, Nina, all, To rephrase the question with specific case: On the ocassion of seeing, there are 7 universal cetasikas. Some of which are cetana/manasikaro. Is cetana aimed at eye base, visual object or eye-consciousness? Or all? Is manasikaro aimed at eye base, visual object or eye-consciousness? Or all? With metta, Alex #103690 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:00 am Subject: Re: What Was Not Said !!! dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al ...snip > > > > Good friend Alex, > > > > Please help me understand what you state. Please forgive me; but, I did not understand your last response. > > > > I repeat my initial question: > > > > Quote: > > > > C: As you only mentioned the sutta-pitaka, you, then, ignore the > > vinaya-pitaka and abhidhamma-pitaka? > > > > End quote. > > > > > > > > Let me restate the questions: > > > > 1. You ignore the vinaya-pitaka? Yes or No, please. > > No. > > > > 2. You ignore the abhidhamma-pitaka? Yes or No, please. > > Some parts of it are good and I accept them. Some other parts I do not fully agree with. Ex: saddhanusarin & dhammanusarin existing for only one mind moment or in other words that "path & fruit are momentary". I disagree with this Abh teaching. > > > > > 3. What is "Sutta-Vinaya"? I can not find it listed anywhere. [bummers] > > > > "Discourses and Discipline". > > With metta, > > Alex > Good friend Alex, Very sincere thanks for your honest replies. We have excellent starting points for further discussions. FWIW, I do not know enough to state with what I do not agree other than the point of merit gained is somewhat based on the "purity" of the recipient. I wrote to Sarah earlier. It was a point of discussion with my ajahn and other monks. For sure, there will be other points here where I fail to see the relevance. Again, very sincere thanks. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103691 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:05 am Subject: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" truth_aerator >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Sarah (and Alex) - > > In a message dated 12/20/2009 2:23:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > S: For me, I just study when there are conditions to do so, reflect on > what I've heard or read, again when there are conditions to do so, and go > about my daily business normally without trying to forget, remember or anything > else. I find that what I've heard, read and considered in the past are > sometimes conditions for wise reflection and awareness and often not. It's a > gradual path and I have confidence that the way is the understanding of > conditioned realities which are so anatta at this very moment. The careful > considering of what the Buddha taught 'works its way', so to speak. I can > honestly say that I never feel any inclination to 'do' anything special in order > for awareness to arise, not even to open books, listen to KS or discuss > dhamma for this purpose. > > This is what is meant by developing the path factors naturally - just > going about one's daily business, understanding more and more about the present > moment in any circumstances. > > So after you've been reading, go for a walk, help in the kitchen, meet > your friends and don't try to 'do' anything. You may be surprised at how often > wise reflection and moments of awareness slip in to your day when 'Self > doing' is taken out of the picture. > ================================== > The "naturalness" you speak of is, IMO, the result of developed habit. > For me, for example, it is "natural" to automatically engage in > introspection, being aware of my thinking, feeling, emotions, inclinations and so on > with no intention and effort required. I don't need to try to engage in > this - it just happens. But that was not always so. At first it was > "artificial" and quite intentional, and it is still fostered by my intentional > sitting for (what is basically samatha) meditation, though my sitting-meditation > practice is also becoming habituated. This process reminds me much of > learning to ride a bicycle: At first it is quite "studied," with much intention > and attention given to one's effort, and with many false starts, but after > a while it becomes semi-automatic. > > With metta, > Howard Hello Howard, Sarah, KenO, all, Exactly. What is now natural habit was "un natural" (and in a sense, artificial) before. It is true that eventually wisdom may be so developed and trained, that it naturally does things and without conscious effort on one's part. Like in martial arts, a person may "artifically" train a certain "move" 10000 times so that in real life situation - the move would come out automatically and habitually. As Bruce Lee has said (rough paraphrase). I am not afraid of a person who practiced 10000 different kicks once, I am afraid of the guy who practiced 1 kick 10000 times. " And another awesome quote by another person: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" So IMHO it is preferable if one develops wisdom as much as possible and as often as possible. If one does not improve, then mostly likely one simply goes worse - especially for lower class of individuals. Considering our hypertrophied habitual avijja tendencies, vijja should be developed quite hard. Otherwise it is almost "one step forward, two steps back." To wisely practice, practice and some more wise practice! With metta, Alex #103692 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:36 am Subject: Abhidhamma Objection: eas Re: What Was Not Said !!! dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al ... snip > > 2. You ignore the abhidhamma-pitaka? Yes or No, please. > > Some parts of it are good and I accept them. Some other parts I do not fully agree with. Ex: saddhanusarin & dhammanusarin existing for only one mind moment or in other words that "path & fruit are momentary". I disagree with this Abh teaching. > > ...snip > > With metta, > > Alex > Good friend Alex, As you have the time, would you go into greater detail on: "...saddhanusarin & dhammanusarin existing for only one mind moment or in other words that "path & fruit are momentary". I disagree with this Abh teaching." Perhaps I will agree with you as I am not familiar with the terms: 1. saddhanusarin 2. dhammanusarin Warm thanks for your continued help. metta (maitri), Chuck #103693 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:47 am Subject: Abhidhamma Objection: eas Re: What Was Not Said !!! truth_aerator Dear Chuck, all, As I understand it, Abhidhamma and later Comy treats 4 pairs of people only as mind moments. 4 pairs: Stream Enterer and one on the path to stream entry * Once-returner and one on the path to once returning. Non-Returner and one on the path to non-returning Arhat and one on the path to arhatship. According to the suttas, those are actual people that can walk and talk. One doesn't become one pair for a mind moment, although the moment of penetrating higher paths&fruits may last for a moment, an "aha!" moment. * As to saddhanusarin and dhammanusarin . These are holy people on the path to Sotopanna. They can remain on that stage for the rest of their life, but they will become Sotopanna prior to dying. They don't exist only for "a mind moment". See suttas in Okkanti-Samyutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.001.than.html And MN70. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html For more definition of these types. (there are other suttas as well). With metta, Alex > > As you have the time, would you go into greater detail on: > > "...saddhanusarin & dhammanusarin existing for only one mind moment or in other words that "path & fruit are momentary". > > I disagree with this Abh teaching." > > > > > Perhaps I will agree with you as I am not familiar with the terms: > > 1. saddhanusarin > > 2. dhammanusarin > #103694 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:02 am Subject: Abhidhamma Objection: eas Re: What Was Not Said !!! dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: #103693 > Warm thanks. I will review. metta (maitri), Chuck ......... Deleted by C #103696 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:53 am Subject: Deepest wisdom teachings/analysis in Sutta Pitaka truth_aerator Hello Chuck, all, In certain suttas the Buddha has made an outline of the teaching that (eventually) make one to be the highest. I also believe that heart and the skeleton of Buddha's teaching is found in these. 7 aspects (of aggregates) and being a triple investigator. 7 aspects are: aggregate, the origination of x, the cessation of x, the path of practice leading to the cessation of x. Discerning the allure of x, the drawback of x, and the escape from x. Triple investigator: investigating by the bases, elements, and Dependent origination. I also like the teaching of origination of wrong views (which seems to follow exactly some links of the D.O.) found in SN 22.81 "A monk who is skilled in seven bases and has three modes of investigation is fulfilled and fully accomplished in this doctrine & discipline — the ultimate person." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.057.than.html Some of my fav analytic suttas: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.057.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.081.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.055.than.html With metta, Alex #103697 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:48 pm Subject: Re: Deepest wisdom teachings/analysis in Sutta Pitaka dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: #103696 > ... C: Warm thanks for the additional info. More food the mind... Please forgive the delay in my response... I was doing mundane stuff... Would you believe I was on the phone with my car mechanic? I am in Bangkok and he is in San Antonio, Texas. On Saturday and Sunday, he has a call-in radio program where one can ask him for automotive problem help. A couple years ago, I complained I could not get the radio station, KTSA, on the internet outside USA. Well, now I can. So, I called him and asked a small auto problem and asked him to pass on to the station management, my thanks. I listen to other KTSA programs during the week. Helps pass the time when not home in the Texas "Hill Country." Again, warm thanks for the additional info. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103698 From: "connie" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:00 pm Subject: studyhall nichiconn dear friends, 1. For those who can use it, there's now a single 68MB IZarc zip of the first 100,000 dsg posts (~1000/file) to download. 2. If you can run wuala's script, you should be able to stream Ashin Punnobhasa's "Abhidhamma Diary" lecture videos instead of having to download the large wmv files. Instead of going thru CMA in order, he presents the information along a patisandhi- thru cuti-citta framework & discusses the different conditions in effect along the way. see: wuala.com/nichicon dsgPosts_txt & apbADL1_wmv folders best wishes, connie #103699 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:43 pm Subject: Ahiraaja Sutta chewsadhu Dear friends in the Dhamma, [Paa.li text : A.nguttaranikaayo Ahiraajasutta.m] ''Na hi nuuna [na ha nuuna (sii. syaa. ka.m. pii.)] so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cattaari ahiraajakulaani mettena cittena phari. Sace hi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cattaari ahiraajakulaani mettena cittena phareyya, na hi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ahinaa da.t.tho kaala.nkareyya. [translated from the Paa.li by Thanissaro Bhikkhu] "Then it's certain, monks, that that monk didn't suffuse the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will. For if he had suffused the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will, he would not have died after having been bitten by a snake. [translated from the Paa.li by Piyadassi Thera] "Assuredly, monks," said the Buddha. "That monk has not suffused with thoughts of loving-kindness (metta) the four royal tribes of snakes. Had he done so, that monk would not have died of snake-bite. ---- For the translation of: na hi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ahinaa da.t.tho kaala.nkareyya. T: he would not have died after having been bitten by a snake. P: Had he done so, that monk would not have died of snake-bite. Do they have any difference in meaning? For P's meaning, can it means the monk would not be bitten by a snake? For "thoughts of loving-kindness", can I interpret as developing of Metta Bhavana (Samatha concentration) till Jhana stage? Thanks and Sadhu. With respect, Chew #103700 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:21 pm Subject: pdf ptaus1 Dear Nina and all, Here's a bit about converting image pdfs into text. If you are unable to select and copy text excerpts in your pdf viewer software, that most probably means that the particular pdf document was created/formated as image, not text. So, in order to convert it back into text, what's needed is "optical character recognition" (OCR) software, which basically looks at images and tries to match them to specific characters. Usually, the pdf viewers like Adobe Reader, or Preview on mac, do not come with OCR feature. But some other programs do, so check because you might already have it on your computer. For example, Microsoft Office package comes with an OCR feature. To check - just go Start > Programs > Microsoft Office > Microsoft Office Tools > Microsoft Office Document Scanning This "Microsoft Office Document Scanning" is the application that scans and recognises text in whatever image that's scanned. On a mac, the path would be Your hard-drive > OSX > Applications > Microsoft Office > Microsoft Office Tools > Microsoft Office Document Scanning So, if you want to recognise a pdf file - first open it in a pdf reader application, then go File>Print, and then from the list of printers select "Microsoft Office Document Image Writer" which will save the pdf page as *.mdi file that you can import into "Microsoft Office Document Scanning" application and then go Tools>Recognise text using OCR. Other applications that have OCR are OneNote, Adobe Acrobat (not the free Reader), etc. If you don't have any of these, then there are a few options how to get OCR: 1. Free online OCR service 2. Free online OCR service that requires signup for an account 3. Free OCR software (haven't found any for mac yet) 4. Buying an OCR software application. Usually, the quality of character recognition improves in that order as well. I.e. I tried a few of the free online services - it's about 60-70% accurate. Then I compared it with Adobe Acrobat (not the reader but Adobe software for editing pdfs, which includes OCR and costs about $300), and it was about 85% accurate (and they all really struggle with Pali). So, if you want to copy for example only a few sentences from a pdf, then I'd say the best is to just type it out, as it would likely take less time then having it recognised by OCR and then correcting the mistakes. But if you have larger text excerpts, then exploring some of the OCR options might be useful. 1. Free online OCR service - a few links: http://www.free-ocr.com/ http://asv.aso.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp/tesseract/ http://www.newocr.com/ Basically, you just need to upload the file with the text you want recognised. Some of these websites have limits of how much you can upload for recognition. As an example, lets say you need recognition for a 5 sentence-excerpt from a big pdf, and you don't have a pdf editor software in which you could just cut out that part of the image with 5 sentences and save it as a separate picture that you can then upload for recognition. What you can do in that case is just use the screenshot option. On a mac, there are two ways to make a screen shot: (1) "shift + apple(command) + 3" - pressing these 3 keys at the same time makes a picture (shot) of your entire screen - i.e. whatever is visible on the screen at that moment. This picture is then automatically put on your desktop as a separate picture file (and opened in preview on newer OSX versions). So this is the picture that you can then upload for the free OCR. (2) "shift + apple(command) + 4" - pressing these 3 keys at the same time will call a cross-hair cursor, with which you can then select a portion of your screen that you want to take a shot of. Then you position the mouse (cursor) at the top-left corner where you want to start selecting the text excerpt, then click the mouse (left click) hold it and drag the mouse so as to select the text-excerpt. When you let go of the mouse button, the picture of what you selected will appear on the desktop as a separate file, and this is what you upload for free OCR. On a PC, you just have to press the screenshot key, then paste this picture in a picture editor, save it and upload that file for free OCR. 2. Free online OCR service that requires signup for an account - a few links: http://www.ocrterminal.com/ https://my.ocrnow.com/account/login http://finereader.abbyyonline.com/ These are not much different, just that they need you to sign up for a free account, I guess so that they can monitor that you don't exceed a certain limit of free services. 3. Free OCR software - a few links: http://www.simpleocr.com/ http://www.freewarefiles.com/Free-OCR_program_34315.html I haven't tried these, but from reviews online they seem ok. Here's a page that compares the use of the two above as well as some that are in other applications (OneNote, MSOffice): http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/top-5-free-ocr-software-tools-to-convert-your-image\ s-into-text-nb/ As mentioned, I haven't found any free versions for mac. 4. OCR applications you can buy - a few links: http://www.scanstore.com/Scanning_Software/default.asp?selMan=IR http://www.scanstore.com/Scanning_Software/default.asp?selMan=NU There are many applications and some will provide a free demo, or free evaluation versions that lasts 30 days or so. So you can use this to compare which software works better, or just use it until it expires. Here's a page that compares various commercial OCR applications (the only thing that might be a little confusing is when they say "freeware" for applications that are not free despite the name): http://www.scanstore.com/Scanning/Document_Imaging/Software/OCR_Software/ocr_fre\ eware.asp Best wishes pt #103701 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:25 pm Subject: Re: studyhall ptaus1 Dear connie, Thanks very much, that's awesome. Best wishes pt > 1. For those who can use it, there's now a single 68MB IZarc zip of the first 100,000 dsg posts (~1000/file) to download. > > 2. If you can run wuala's script, you should be able to stream Ashin Punnobhasa's "Abhidhamma Diary" lecture videos instead of having to download the large wmv files. Instead of going thru CMA in order, he presents the information along a patisandhi- thru cuti-citta framework & discusses the different conditions in effect along the way. > > see: > wuala.com/nichicon > dsgPosts_txt & apbADL1_wmv folders #103702 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:30 pm Subject: Re: Printing posts ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for this. I don't really know a better way, as I've never printed the posts (prefer electronic), but it looks fine to me. The only thing I might suggest is to try printing straight from the browser instead of having to select and paste into notepad/word. Though I imagine the print might not be as neat as when edited in word. Best wishes pt > Steps we follow for downloading recent posts: > #103615 #103703 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] pdf ashkenn2k Dear pt you are a gem :-) thanks for this informative email. Cheers Ken O #103704 From: "connie" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:04 pm Subject: studyhall nichiconn dear pt, all, thank you. also (doh!), it turns out the standard right-click / open or play browser option works for streaming from wuala, too - just takes a bit longer to buffer than if you use their software. The longest video is about an hour and a half, btw. I'll get around to descriptions for the files one of these days... but look how long it took to get around to a simple zip file for the posts! ...maybe you'll add comments before I do. peace, connie ref #103701 - wuala.com/nichicon #103705 From: Vince Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:34 pm Subject: Re[8]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina: you wrote: > N: The notion of ultimate realities is just used to distinguish them > from concepts that are only mind constructs and do not really exist. > Nama and rupa, mental phenomena and physical phenomena, arise and > pass away all the time, no matter it is known or not known. >[..] > N: Just touch and no need to 'think' about what appears through the > bodysense. No matter you touch a table, a plate a body, the element > of hardness can be experienced. Just hardness, no difference where > you touch. I agree and I understand there is touching, not "I touch". But until today, I understand that "touching of the table" doesn't anihilate the table; only the atta nature of the experience of table. Can the hardness arises without its object of dependence (table, plate, body..)? thanks for your thoughts, #103706 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:55 pm Subject: Not Involved! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Clinging to Wrong Views is Catastrophic! The Buddha often emphasized wrong view as thee most detrimental: When one has imagined, assumed, constructed, approved of and authorized Wrong Views & opinions, then one is relying that, which is unstable & unsafe! Clinging to these long cherished wrong views, are not easily relinquished... One adheres to these persuasions having chosen them from among many hypothetical ideas, laying down one assumption, just to take up a another new fancy theory! A purified man, however, does indeed not form any view about anything anywhere! He is not involved..! Having cut out all deceptions illusions and conceits, where could such a clear-sighted man ever be driven? An involved person, however, engages easily in disputes about opposed ideas, but how can one ever dispute with one, who is not involved? He has neither taken up, nor laid down anything, but has shaken off having any view at all! Sutta-Nipata 784-787 Edited excerpt. <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #103707 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:23 pm Subject: Re: Re[8]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas ashkenn2k Dear Vince > agree and I understand there is touching, not "I touch". > But until today, I understand that "touching of the table" doesn't > anihilate the table; only the atta nature of the experience of table. KO: No offense meant, I am wondering why you need to annihilate the table? It is not possible to desconstruct the table as it is a mental object. There is no atta at all in table likewise there is no atta at all in all rupas and nama. It is our ignorance to nama and rupas that cause us to believe there is an atta, It is the ignorance that should be annihilate and not table. > Can the hardness arises without its object of dependence (table, > plate, body..)? KO: This is what I think an attributing theory which most people falls into when we explain about nama and rupas versus concepts. Table does not produce hardness, it is the hardness is experience when we touch a hard object. Hardness does not depend on the table to arise because rupas in the external depends on temperature to arise. Table does not produce cold, it is the temperature object that comes with contact with kaya citta that we felt the object is cold, Also we could feel hardness in water, hardness in wind when blowing at strongly at our face. It is not solid or concept means hardness. It is the characteristic of hardness which make it distinct as hardness Cheers Ken O #103708 From: Dinesh Kularathne Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:02 am Subject: Ditthi and Mana dinesh.kular... Dear Nina, Sarah and all, Just a quick question: In his “A Manual of Abhidhammaâ€? Narada Thero writes, “Conceit does not arise in lobha consciousness, together with misbelief. Ditthi is connected with wrong view, while Mà na is concerned with egoism. Both of them, say the commentators, are like two lions that cannot live together in one cave…â€? Isn’t belief in an ego/self a wrong view (Ditthi)? What is that big difference between Ditthi and Mana that makes them great opponents? – Thank you. Metta Dinesh #103709 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:43 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, Abstaining from slandering, rude speech and idle talk are not among the five precepts for laypeople. Abstaining from them, however, is kusala kamma. We may be in situations where we are tempted to speak evil, but when we abstain with kusala citta from slandering there is good moral conduct. When someone else scolds us we may abstain from talking back. However, if we keep silent with aversion there isn’t good moral conduct. We have to investigate the citta in order to know whether there is good moral conduct or not. Abstaining from useless, idle talk is hard to observe. Most of the time we engage in idle talk about pleasant objects, such as delicious food, nice weather or journeys. We may think that such conversations are good since we do not harm other people. Through the Buddhist teachings we learn to investigate the cittas which motivate such conversations. We can find out that we speak mostly with attachment about pleasant objects and in this way accumulate ever more attachment. We do not have to avoid such conversations, but it is beneficial to know the nature of the citta which motivates our speech. When there are conditions for kusala citta we can speak about pleasant subjects with kindness and consideration for other people. Only the person who has reached the state of perfection has no more conditions to engage in idle talk. He has eradicated all kinds of akusala, also the subtle degrees. Committing evil through bodily action or speech for the sake of one’s livelihood is wrong livelihood. When one abstains from wrong livelihood there is right livelihood. One may, for example, be tempted to tell a lie in order to obtain more profit in one’s business. If one abstains from such speech there is right livelihood. ****** Nina. #103710 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] pdf nilovg Dear pt, thank you very much. You took a lot of trouble to give all this info. My skill is very limited and I shall see later on whether I can do something. Just now I have some urgent work to finish including some projects on the Pali list. Nina. Op 21-dec-2009, om 3:21 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Here's a bit about converting image pdfs into text. #103711 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ditthi and Mana sarahprocter... Dear Dinesh, --- On Mon, 21/12/09, Dinesh Kularathne wrote: >Just a quick question: .... S: and a quick answer.... .... >In his “A Manual of Abhidhammaâ€? Narada Thero writes, “Conceit does not arise in lobha consciousness, together with misbelief. Ditthi is connected with wrong view, while Mà na is concerned with egoism. Both of them, say the commentators,are like two lions that cannot live together in one cave…â€? ... S: Yes, a good metaphor to indicate they cannot arise with the same citta. ... >Isn’t belief in an ego/self a wrong view (Ditthi)? What is that big difference between Ditthi and Mana that makes them great opponents? – ... S: Many friends here ask the same question and very recently I wrote the following to pt on the same topic: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/102441 Pls also review the following messages from the archives saved in UP as: >Conceit5 vs Wrong View of Self (Sakkaya-ditthi), also see 'Conceit', 'Wrong View', 'Khemaka' 11868, 20141, 22649, 22765, 25213, 31905, 38356, 40109, 50610, 52267, 79469, 80672, 81086, 95233, 95268, 98407 < [for the numbers, you'll either have to key them in individually on DSG under "message #" or find the section in U.P. under "C" and click on the links]. Let us know what makes sense and what doesn't. In brief, the cittas arising with wrong view and those with conceit have different objects, different concepts as object of lobha. With conceit, one finds oneself important, but there is no view involved. With wrong view, there is a mis-conception about the realities of life. For example, the visible object appearing is taken to be a computer in actuality. One thinks the computer is something, a whole. There is no conceit at such a moment. Anyway, best wishes for your reading of the detail in the messages I've indicated. I'll look forward to hearing back from you. Metta Sarah ======= #103712 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] pdf ptaus1 Dear Nina, I went to the Pali group to see about the document in question - it's probably "Traditional Tools" by Ven.Pandita, right? I downloaded it to my old mac and it has the same problem as you describe. Then I took it to my (just as old pc) and it works okay there. I'm not sure what's the issue here: might be the formatting, fonts, etc, of the pdf document that are just not recognised by old Preview applicaton (nor the old MS Word for mac). Anyway, I converted that pdf into a txt file which you will be able to open either in your browser as an internet page, or in TextEdit application on mac when you download it - it should automatically load when you double-click the file, if not, TextEdit application should be located in your OSX>Applications folder. I uploaded the file in the Files section here on DSG as TT.TXT This is a direct link to it: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MFUvS8l1wL6Y_0vzVcfHOhGMur2wJHZ2yrTFPrlNAwNOfmfZtgW\ LeIPLJKfpNuw_YI8uMykI0zOcA7RqOsM7/TT.TXT There are two potential problems currently: 1. formatting hasn't been preserved in this txt file (so it doesn't look very nice) - but the Pali fonts and everything else should work ok. Please let me know if formatting is important to you and I'll try to do smth about it tomorrow at work. 2. I tried copying and pasting from the txt file - it works okay in text edit, as well as pasting here in Yahoo messages, but for some reason it won't paste into MS Word for mac (I have a 2001 mac MSword, so it still might work on your if it's newer, and if that's what you need it for). Anyway, please let me know if there are any more problems because I can try and further improve the transfer when I have access to better computers tomorrow (and then won't have access to them for another week). Best wishes pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear pt, > thank you very much. You took a lot of trouble to give all this info. > > > #103713 From: Vince Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:26 am Subject: Re[10]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Hi Ken thanks for retaking the topic, > KO: No offense meant, I am wondering why you need to annihilate > the table? It is not possible to desconstruct the table as it is a > mental object. There is no atta at all in table likewise there is > no atta at all in all rupas and nama. It is our ignorance to nama > and rupas that cause us to believe there is an atta, It is the > ignorance that should be annihilate and not table. no offensive, of course. I'm happy for the interchange! :) Precisely, what I don't conceive is the annihilation of the table! If we experience the hardness of table, it arises in dependence of the table. I understand in emptiness only abides the atta of the table or whatever other conceivable. There is not a "final reality" except anatta. And whatever we had build, from this there is anatta nature. >> V: Can the hardness arises without its object of dependence (table, >> plate, body..)? > KO: This is what I think an attributing theory which most people > falls into when we explain about nama and rupas versus concepts. > [...] > Table does not produce hardness, [...]Table does not produce cold, > it is the temperature object that comes with contact with... well, but this production is not my understanding. I only try to consider the relation of dependence to clarify the nature of the table, which seems to be missed in the nama-rupa deconstruction (or maybe I don't understand well the point) Note you says: "it is the temperature object". And I ask you: What object? The table is a conceptual and delusive reality arising because hardness, etc.. I don't deny this. My point is: even if we realize the table as a mere concept because the sum of many parts, it doesn't mean the table is not here. The conceptual experience of table doesn't exist because nama and rupa but because there is a -self, and from here the need of nama-rupa explanation. Who can be awakened is Richard, not the seeing of Richard or the citta of Richard. What can be anatta is the table, not the rupa of the table. Richard is walking and he see a table, then suddenly he realizes that there is the seeing of table instead "I see a table". Anatta doesn't mean the vanishing of Richard neither the table. > we could feel hardness in water, hardness in wind when > blowing at strongly at our face. we could feel "hardness IN..". But we cannot feel hardness without an IN or without an OF. In case it can happen, then we cannot call to this "rupa". That case belongs to what we call imagination, hallucination or fabrication. Precisely, because there is not its object of dependence (outside of considerations about the conceptual nature of that object). Table is taken as a conceptual reality not because the hardness or temperature. Table is a conceptual experience because "my feeling" and "my seeing" of table. When there is not "my" and "me", there is anatta, but it doesn't mean the table has vanished. The conceptual nature of the table" don't arises directly by ignoring naama and rupa but, first of all, by ignoring the anatta nature of Suchness. Nama and rupa are only objects of understanding to leave atta. This is how actually I understand. So to me, Nama-and-rupa seem to be a dhamma teaching to be developed after *a first error* in realizing the atta of table in the same moment when the table is manifest. At least to me, it is the -self who ask and doubts despite there is not questions in front what is auto-evident here and now. My doubt is: How we can explain the arising of nama-rupa explanation in arhants and higher states of progress?. How that's possible if we know the arhant is living final nature-anatta?. It is something needed to progress to higher states? It is a compassionate device arising to get final detachment in higher states? These are my doubts from the beginning. I sorry if If don't explain myself better :) best, #103714 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] pdf nilovg Dear pt, Op 21-dec-2009, om 12:46 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > I went to the Pali group to see about the document in question - > it's probably "Traditional Tools" by Ven.Pandita, right? ------ N: Exactly. But your links says: doc not found. The same Ven. sent me off list a pdf, same formatting etc. and this was perfect. He could not understand this, he said. But I do not want to bother him further with questions. Perhaps the first one was a picture, as you said. On my computer is preview the one that opens. Thanks, Nina. #103715 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:20 am Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 6 ashkenn2k Dear all Q. : The practice should be steadfast, not agitated, as you just said. Therefore, is it possible to use the method of satipaììhÃ¥na of breathing (Ã¥nÃ¥pÃ¥na satipaììhÃ¥na)? The subjects of satipaììhÃ¥na are body, feeling, citta and dhamma, but we can combine these with Ã¥nÃ¥pÃ¥na sati, mindfulness of breathing. I myself have given the name of “ånÃ¥pÃ¥na satipaììhÃ¥naâ€? to this way of practice. S. : It is mostly the desire for result which causes a person to look for a combination of several methods. He may not know how to develop understanding and tries therefore to use one method in combination with another one so that understanding (sampajañña) would become more accomplished. He believes that there is in that way no forgetfulness and that he can for a long time focus on one object. However, is that not clinging? People may well wish to focus citta for a long time on a particular object, but they cannot be mindful in the right way, they cannot be mindful, for example, of what appears through the eyes or through the other doorways. When people try to make citta concentrate on one object they are actually combining several methods of development because of clinging to result. It is not the development of paññå. For the person who develops satipaììhÃ¥na naturally the aim is to understand realities and thereby to become detached from them. However, if one has no understanding yet one cannot become detached. Can you, while you try to make citta concentrate on one object, let go of desire? If you try to concentrate you do not develop paññå with the aim of understanding realities and becoming detached. If people try to do something other than developing satipaììhÃ¥na naturally, they will not know as they are the characteristics of realities which are appearing at this moment. Hearing is real, it appears naturally, and so it is with thinking, happy feeling or unhappy feeling; they all appear naturally, they are all dhammas, realities. If sati does not arise and is not aware of realities, there is not the development of satipaììhÃ¥na. What is the use of combining different methods of practice if there is no understanding of nÃ¥ma and rúpa as they appear already through the six doors. to be continued Cheers KO #103716 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:25 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 9 ashkenn2k Dear all When the vÃ-cittas of a sense-door process have fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are cittas of the mind-door process. The first series of cittas of the mind-door process which arise after a sense-door process experience a sense object which has only just fallen away, they do not have a concept as object.  In each series of mind-door process cittas there are two or three kinds of vÃ-cittas, namely: one moment of mind-door adverting-consciousness, seven moments of javana-cittas and two moments of tadÃ¥lambana-cittas. When the first series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there is a another series of mind-door process cittas, which can have as object a concept (such as shape and form, or the image of something as a “wholeâ€?) on account of a sense object. When this series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away there are bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are more rounds of minddoor process cittas which follow. They know the meaning of something, they know words and names. In between the different series there are bhavanga-cittas. When we know that we see people or different things, the citta experiences a concept, not a paramattha dhamma which is rúpa. The object which is a paramattha dhamma appearing through the eyes are only different colours. When the vÃ-cittas of the mind-door process know that there are beings, people and different things, then the cittas have paññattis, concepts, as object. Theyknow what a particular thing is. to be continued Cheers KO #103717 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:52 am Subject: Re: Re[8]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Vince) - In a message dated 12/21/2009 2:23:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: #103707 ==================================== Another way to put it, as I view the matter, is as follows: What we perceive, think of, and call "the table" is a thought construct based on a host of experiences through a combination of body door, eye door, and mind door, and strongly involving memory. The acts of experiencing were all "real" in the sense that they actually occurred, and the objects experienced that arose via body door and eye door were also "real" in that they were not mere thought projections, imaginings, and recollections. However, "the table," while ultimately *founded* upon a complex, multi-layered aggregation of phenomena experienced largely independent of thinking, is not itself at all existent except as a thought. The only disclaimer I would provide with regard to what I just wrote is the following: Even the "real" phenomena I listed above, the so called paramatha dhammas, are conventional and dependent to a degree on thinking, due to our perceiving (sa~n~na) of them and conceiving of them as entities distinct in themselves, with "nature-given," well-delineated, fixed natures, and fixed start and end points. Even these vary in nature and "intensity" throughout the period of their duration, but our identification of a multiplicity as "a single dhamma" throughout that period is a matter of convention. Though there is constant change, yet we say "a single paramattha dhamma." That is, we *identify* differing qualities as "the same". That is what identification is all about, mentally grouping differing qualities and events as a unit. The word 'identity' is from the Latin 'idem et idem', meaning "same and same," and identification is the mental "making same" of disparate qualities. Only in our thinking are there graspable entities. In reality, there is just an unnameable, ungraspable flux of experience. The conventional separations we impose are useful but ultimately false. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103718 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:53 am Subject: The Process of Breahing as Matter Arising Re: The Anapanasati Sutta abhidhammika Dear Alex, Uncle U Han Tun, Howard, Nina, Phil, Freewaru, Chuk, Choo Sadhu, Robert K, Sarah, Jon How are you? Alex wrote: "The thing is that the awareness of namarupa during anapanasati is much clearer than when one is busy with talking and doing daily life stuff." Breathing in and breathing out are what the Pali texts call kaayasankhaaro,bodily activities. Put it another way, they are actual instances of matter arising in real time. And, watching, observing, noticing and/or remembering to notice, watch and observe the processes of breathing are what the Pali texts call manosankhaaro or manokammaani, mental activities. Put it another way, they are actual instances of mind arising in real time. But, paravaadiis (other-view holders) like Sarah or her role model K Sujin, may not know those aspects of Aanaapaanasati practice which emerge as advantages to only the advanced formal practitioners of this mainstream Theravada method. Of course, paravaadiis may object to my above analysis of their plight - if and only if - they were able to accept my identifying of the processes of breathing as instances of matter arising in real time, and my equating the advanced formal practice of watching and noticing those very instances of matter arising in real time as the actual instances of mind arising in real time. Three Saadhu to Alex! Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #103719 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" ashkenn2k Dear Alex Difficult to see that the natural way of development is through listening and considering dhamma. Just like when you first come to know about Buddhism, it is the panna that condition your citta to learn more and more of Buddhism as you find the teaching beneficial. There is no force in it, it is natural reaction when we first learn Buddhism, we wish to know more of it. This is the way we are talking about. The other difficult thing to see is that there is always an inherent desire to know how much we develop, or with this practise my development will increase this and that or with this practise that is how it is develop. To know how much we develop the best way is known how we understand ourselves in difficult situations like being scolded by someone else, are we being angry in return or...? Understanding present reality does not need any training, tools or practise, it is as natural as we breath in and breath out. For illustration, seeing is natural and arise by its own conditions. And importantly do we see this characteristics as it arise or do we wait to see this characterisitcs during training as it arise Cheers KO #103720 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:40 am Subject: Re: Re[10]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas ashkenn2k Dear Vince > >Precisely, what I don't conceive is the annihilation of the table! >If we experience the hardness of table, it arises in dependence of the >table. I understand in emptiness only abides the atta of the table or >whatever other conceivable. There is not a "final reality" except >anatta. And whatever we had build, from this there is anatta nature. >well, but this production is not my understanding. I only try to >consider the relation of dependence to clarify the nature of the >table, which seems to be missed in the nama-rupa deconstruction (or >maybe I don't understand well the point) > >Note you says: "it is the temperature object". And I ask you: What >object? KO: The difference between your method and my method is that I basing my understanding of reality on paramatha dhammas while yours IMHO is the inter-conditional view. In our method, we treat those experiences temperature object as real and only discernable in the sense doors while the table is not real and could only be an object of the mind door. During the moments of experiencing this table object, the citta that thinks of the table is real but the table as an object does not have distinct characteristics and is not real. In this method, whatever that is present in our citta that does not have distinct characteristics, would not be able to help in the development of the understanding of not self as in the first place these distinct characteristic is not discernable. > >The table is a conceptual and delusive reality arising because >hardness, etc.. I don't deny this. My point is: even if we realize >the table as a mere concept because the sum of many parts, it doesn't >mean the table is not here. >The conceptual experience of table doesn't exist because nama and rupa >but because there is a -self, and from here the need of nama-rupa >explanation. > >Who can be awakened is Richard, not the seeing of Richard or the citta >of Richard. What can be anatta is the table, not the rupa of the >table. Richard is walking and he see a table, then suddenly he >realizes that there is the seeing of table instead "I see a table". >Anatta doesn't mean the vanishing of Richard neither the table. > >> we could feel hardness in water, hardness in wind when >> blowing at strongly at our face. > >we could feel "hardness IN..". But we cannot feel hardness without an >IN or without an OF. In case it can happen, then we cannot call to >this "rupa". That case belongs to what we call imagination, >hallucination or fabrication. Precisely, because there is not its >object of dependence (outside of considerations about the conceptual >nature of that object). > >Table is taken as a conceptual reality not because the hardness or >temperature. Table is a conceptual experience because "my feeling" and >"my seeing" of table. When there is not "my" and "me", there is >anatta, but it doesn't mean the table has vanished. > KO: You raise interesting questions here. Table or Richard do exist as a concept of the mind. What we are saying that table and Richard does not have any distinct characteristics which helps in understanding of not-self. The method of nama and rupa is to exactly the precise experience of this distinct characterisitics and not base on conventional way of thinking or being mislead. >The conceptual nature of the table" don't arises directly by ignoring >naama and rupa but, first of all, by ignoring the anatta nature of >Suchness. Nama and rupa are only objects of understanding to leave >atta. > KO: The conceptual nature of table arise because of our sana and citta that process the information. We cannot say by ignoring the anatta nature because in the case of Arahants, they could see the table, they could understand it as not real, they could see the distinct characteristic of the visible object and the later processes on how this accumulation of objects form the mental construct of table. There is nothing wrong about the table, we could see it as a table in terms of a visible object, but it is attributing that table is real which is the wrongness here. >This is how actually I understand. So to me, Nama-and-rupa seem to be >a dhamma teaching to be developed after *a first error* in realizing >the atta of table in the same moment when the table is manifest. >At least to me, it is the -self who ask and doubts despite there is >not questions in front what is auto-evident here and now. > KO: Also the arise of the concept of table as an object and the atta attribution of the table as an object could arise at the same time because table is an object of the citta while atta is the ditthi cetasika which arise together with the citta. >My doubt is: How we can explain the arising of nama-rupa explanation >in arhants and higher states of progress?. >How that's possible if we know the arhant is living final nature-anatta? . >It is something needed to progress to higher states? >It is a compassionate device arising to get final detachment in higher >states? KO: It is possibe to know how arahant sees reality. Such realities are always explained by Buddha and his disciples. When they teach on visible objects and visible citta and contact, this is the nature of anatta and the reality of conditions work. They see it directly hence able to articulate exactly what they see in the suttas, As I said to Alex in an earlier email, it is a natural tendency wanted to progress to higher states. Even from times to times, I have such bouts of desire. But one cannot force development as dhammas are anatta. Not understanding this and when we cannot get what we wish for, craving arise and becomes stronger. That is why any wishes about something, method, device, training could lead to more lobha than panna Cheers Ken O #103722 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:53 am Subject: "Hard in practice, easy in daily life!" truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > > Difficult to see that the natural way of development is through >listening and considering dhamma. Listening & considering Dhamma is a must. However there is another aspect that appears to be neglected: putting the learned material into use. The suttas do talk about superhuman desire to achieve the goal. They do metaphorically describe hand-to-hand combat with the kilesas. They do talk about the effort being put as energetically as one would try to extinguish one's burning head. There are phrases like "I will sit and not stand up until awakening, even if my knees break" and "let my flesh and blood dry up, but I will not stop my efforts until full awakening happens". Those sort of sutta teachings question the validity of natural practice. We had aeons of natural avijja practice. Avijja is so deeply rooted that effort to extirpate it would be anything but "natural". Just like riding a bike at first feels unnatural, same with hand-to-hand combat with kilesas. It is true that after some skill and enough wisdom, wisdom automatically deals with kilesas. But until that time hard effort at wise practice may be required to set conditions for natural reflex of wise attitude. "The enemy doesn't sleep!" With metta, Alex #103724 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:37 am Subject: The matter that concepts are made of ... basis of concepts = sadda/rupa ayatana truth_aerator Hello Howard, Herman, KenO, all, As I was analysing the khandha/ayatana/dhatu chart and conditionality, something became more apparent to me. The "clean" analysis into totally different categories is not exactly as it appears. For example, even though consciousness aggregate (vinnana khandha) is separate from matter (rupa), it *is* based on rupa. 5 sense Consciousness is dependent on internal sense faculty (eye, ear, nose. tongue, tactile body) and external object (color, sound, smell, taste, tangible). So the chart is not as "neat" and separable. The conditionality is very tangled and not does not have totally separate elements. Buddha has said that consciousness depends on mentality/materiality (namarupa). namarupa -> vinnana. Vinnana cannot exist without namarupa. But namarupa depends on vinnana. Thus we have "b requires a, a requires b". or "A causes B, B causes A" MN109, SN 12.67 Also the Buddha has divided reality in various ways in various suttas. As namarupa. As vinnana and namarupa. 5 aggregates. 6 elements. 12 bases. 18 elements...Feeling (vedana) can be divided in two parts and it also can be analyzed into 108. None of these analysis is wrong or exclude the other. What the above says is that there isn't one and only possible or right way to divide reality. All division may be "conceptual" . Just like dividing a distance into miles, kilometers, yards, feet, meters, inches, centimeters, etc etc is conceptual, in the same way dividing experiential reality into different parts may be conceptual. One of the reasons why the Buddha failed to find an eternal conscious, is because consciousness always depends on something, and that something is conditioned, impermanent and beyond full control. I was thinking about the nature of concepts. How are they formed, and what are they 'made of'? Lets look at how they are learned. I think that you would agree that concepts belong to the sphere of language. Without language, concepts are impossible to describe. A new mother teaches her newborn baby certain words as they relate to external matter. She points a finger and says "that is the car" or she point to a man walking and says "he is walking". In other words, she equates material things with verbal sounds (words which forms language). When we think, what is happening? We subvocal talk! Thinking is talking in a learned language. Thinking also involves imagination (visible forms). So thinking is subvocal speech and imagination of shapes/colors. These two aspects of thinking is based on visible & auditory object that is privately percieved and re-arranged. There is no totally original imagination that is not based on material reality. Even imaginations of lets say "Centaur" is a combination of shape of a man and horse put together. "Concept" is a linguistic expression, a subvocal speech. So it belongs to sound ayatana and visible rupayatana, privately percieved and arranged. Just try to perceive a concept without using thoughts, language (subverbal speech) or imagination (visual images). So "thinking, conceptualizing" is rearranged past perceived sound and shape/color. It is a jigsaw puzzle that uses past visible & sound object as its basis. With metta, Alex #103725 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:53 am Subject: Re: Re[8]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 21-dec-2009, om 6:34 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > I agree and I understand there is touching, not "I touch". > But until today, I understand that "touching of the table" doesn't > anihilate the table; only the atta nature of the experience of table. > > Can the hardness arises without its object of dependence (table, > plate, body..)? ------ N: Ken O mentioned heat or temperature as a condition for hardness. That is what he meant when saying 'it is the temperature object'. Ruupas that are not of the body, ruupas outside, are produced by the element of heat. Your dilemma is that hardness needs a dependence, cannot arise without the table. Hardness does not arise in isolation, it does not arise without being accompanied by other ruupas that arise at the same time. The four great Elements of earth (solidity) fire (heat or cold), water (cohesion) and wind (motion or pressure) always arise together and fall away together. Perhaps my book on Physical Phenomena I sent you could help here. Hardness is dependent on other ruupas it arises with in one unit or group. Does this help? ------- You write to Ken: we could feel "hardness IN..". But we cannot feel hardness without an IN or without an OF. ------ N: In and of the table are just words of conventional language we use to describe something. Nothing more than that. --------- V: Table is taken as a conceptual reality not because the hardness or temperature. Table is a conceptual experience because "my feeling" and "my seeing" of table. When there is not "my" and "me", there is anatta, but it doesn't mean the table has vanished. ------ N: We remember that there is a table because of sa~n~naa, there is association of former combinations of colour. For our perception there is still a table there, but when we know that in reality there are different elements arising, falling away and being replaced by new ruupas our outlook can change. It seems that all these ruupas we call table stay the same. No, it seems so because they are constantly being replaced, and thus we have the illusion of an everlasting table. We cling to it. In reality a table is a poor thing. Nina. #103726 From: "Daniel" Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:04 pm Subject: Re: "Hard in practice, easy in daily life!" onco111 Alex, Ken has a lot of scriptural support in saying that the "natural way of development is through listening and considering dhamma," but the listening is listening and the considering is yoniso manasikara, which is wise attention. There's little room for "thinking about", "conceptualizing", "theorizing", "speculating"... Hand-to-hand combat with kilesas, effort with hair-burning urgency, strong determination, etc.? Absolutely. And 99.99% of the effort will be "wrong effort", but that one in 10,000 "right effort" is a precious moment. Someone may try to discourage you: "Who's practicing?" "Who can control cittas?" "It's all 'wrong effort'..." And with the 9,999 wrong efforts, the answer is "ME!" It doesn't matter. It make take 9,999 wrong efforts to get a right effort, but in practice wrong effort after wrong effort after wrong effort have to be attempted. Only after all the wrong efforts have been diligently tried and seen as wrong (not conceptualized or theorized as wrong) can right effort be recognized. All the books and intellectual understanding in the world don't help if there is no wise practice (after winnowing out tons of unwise practice) to set conditions for natural reflex of wise attitude. Dan #103727 From: Vince Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:05 pm Subject: Re[10]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Howard, you wrote: > Even the "real" phenomena I listed above, the so called > paramatha dhammas, are conventional and dependent to a degree on thinking, > due to our perceiving (sa~n~na) of them and conceiving of them as entities > distinct in themselves, with "nature-given," well-delineated, fixed natures, > and fixed start and end points. Even these vary in nature and "intensity" > throughout the period of their duration, but our identification of a > multiplicity as "a single dhamma" throughout that period is a matter of > convention. Though there is constant change, yet we say "a single paramattha dhamma." > That is, we *identify* differing qualities as "the same". That is what > identification is all about, mentally grouping differing qualities and events > as a unit. The word 'identity' is from the Latin 'idem et idem', meaning > "same and same," and identification is the mental "making same" of disparate > qualities. > Only in our thinking are there graspable entities. In reality, there > is just an unnameable, ungraspable flux of experience. The conventional > separations we impose are useful but ultimately false. what you says here sounds very satisfactory to my doubts. This explanation has been brilliant to me, able to clarify me. I think my error was in being unable to conciliate the anatta of all dhammas with the characteristic of being a perpetual flux of experience. Even when my practice it's the same regarding "there is seeing, there is toching...", now I suspect my failure was in being unaware of the movement of grasping, because it is able to embrace that product of the reason as another delusion without final reality, and therefore something to be detached in final terms. Here, in the perpetual movement arises the need of an established relation of dependence among the objects of understanding but is in the -self the only place in where these relations can abide, because the perpetual flux is anatta and therefore the relations involved are another convention only needed for the understanding but of course not for anatta. I want to thank you very much your help and also to Nina and Ken to keep the threat alive for me until here. Still I should deep in what it implies but to me it has been as a first hole in a siege, and now I suspect how I can conciliate my actual understanding with what I can learn from now. These days all is measured with money but there are things that didn't have price. Lot of thanks Howard, #103728 From: Vince Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:07 pm Subject: Re[12]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Ken you wrote: > KO: The difference between your method and my method is that I > basing my understanding of reality on paramatha dhammas while yours > IMHO is the inter-conditional view. In our method, we treat those > experiences temperature object as real and only discernable in the > sense doors while the table is not real and could only be an object > of the mind door. During the moments of experiencing this table > object, the citta that thinks of the table is real but the table as > an object does not have distinct characteristics and is not real. > In this method, whatever that is present in our citta that does not > have distinct characteristics, would not be able to help in the > development of the understanding of not self as in the first place > these distinct characteristic is not discernable. yes, now I can see clearer. But I think your method can be better when it is supported in the points commented in the Howard's message, Because then, the understanding and therefore the practical contemplation of Suchness improves, because one can be aware of the anatta of dhammas and -self in a deeper sense. Or at least this my conclusion today! lot of thanks for your help, #103729 From: Vince Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:09 pm Subject: Re[10]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: We remember that there is a table because of sa~n~naa, there is > association of former combinations of colour. > For our perception there is still a table there, but when we know > that in reality there are different elements arising, falling away > and being replaced by new ruupas our outlook can change. It seems > that all these ruupas we call table stay the same. No, it seems so > because they are constantly being replaced, and thus we have the > illusion of an everlasting table. We cling to it. In reality a table > is a poor thing. > Nina. thanks Nina, you have help me a lot. I understand better what you says. Now I feel your explanation is (as any other) conventional but now start to have a lot of sense to me. I don't want to steal you more of your time but it is what I say to Howard and Ken. again, lot of thanks for your help (and patience!!) :) #103730 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The matter that concepts are made of ... basis of concepts = sadda/... upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 12/21/2009 12:37:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, Herman, KenO, all, As I was analysing the khandha/ayatana/dhatu chart and conditionality, something became more apparent to me. The "clean" analysis into totally different categories is not exactly as it appears. For example, even though consciousness aggregate (vinnana khandha) is separate from matter (rupa), it *is* based on rupa. 5 sense Consciousness is dependent on internal sense faculty (eye, ear, nose. tongue, tactile body) and external object (color, sound, smell, taste, tangible). So the chart is not as "neat" and separable. The conditionality is very tangled and not does not have totally separate elements. Buddha has said that consciousness depends on mentality/materiality (namarupa). namarupa -> vinnana. Vinnana cannot exist without namarupa. But namarupa depends on vinnana. Thus we have "b requires a, a requires b". or "A causes B, B causes A" MN109, SN 12.67 ---------------------------------------- Yes, each is among conditions for the other. ---------------------------------------- Also the Buddha has divided reality in various ways in various suttas. As namarupa. As vinnana and namarupa. 5 aggregates. 6 elements. 12 bases. 18 elements...Feeling (vedana) can be divided in two parts and it also can be analyzed into 108. None of these analysis is wrong or exclude the other. What the above says is that there isn't one and only possible or right way to divide reality. All division may be "conceptual" . Just like dividing a distance into miles, kilometers, yards, feet, meters, inches, centimeters, etc etc is conceptual, in the same way dividing experiential reality into different parts may be conceptual. ------------------------------------------- One of the good things about the Abhidhamma Pitaka, even the Dhammasangani, is the it places every dhamma in multiple contexts, showing interrelatedness. ---------------------------------------------- One of the reasons why the Buddha failed to find an eternal conscious, is because consciousness always depends on something, and that something is conditioned, impermanent and beyond full control. -------------------------------------------- That's a good point, I believe. Everything is a thing-in-relation, so that the change in one thing is, perforce, a change in other things. There is a sort of organic connection. ------------------------------------------- I was thinking about the nature of concepts. How are they formed, and what are they 'made of'? Lets look at how they are learned. I think that you would agree that concepts belong to the sphere of language. ----------------------------------------------- They are represented and expressed that way, and, in fact, the aim of a concept is communication, within a mind (i.e., thinking) and between minds. ---------------------------------------------- Without language, concepts are impossible to describe. A new mother teaches her newborn baby certain words as they relate to external matter. She points a finger and says "that is the car" or she point to a man walking and says "he is walking". In other words, she equates material things with verbal sounds (words which forms language). When we think, what is happening? We subvocal talk! --------------------------------------------- Much of the time, but not all of the time. Some thinking is a kind of visual simulation, for example, so that planning and such is iften done wordlessly. ------------------------------------------ Thinking is talking in a learned language. Thinking also involves imagination (visible forms). So thinking is subvocal speech and imagination of shapes/colors. ------------------------------------------ Yes! ---------------------------------------- These two aspects of thinking is based on visible & auditory object that is privately percieved and re-arranged. There is no totally original imagination that is not based on material reality. Even imaginations of lets say "Centaur" is a combination of shape of a man and horse put together. ----------------------------------------- Foundationally, yes. Sometimes thinking pertains to namas as subject matter, but namas ultimately are based on knowing of rupa. -------------------------------------- "Concept" is a linguistic expression, a subvocal speech. ---------------------------------------- Mostly. ---------------------------------------- So it belongs to sound ayatana and visible rupayatana, privately percieved and arranged. Just try to perceive a concept without using thoughts, language (subverbal speech) or imagination (visual images). -------------------------------------------- Some thinking is nonverbal, and some people are more inclined to that than others. ------------------------------------------- So "mind, thinking, conceptualizing" is rearranged past perceived sound and shape/color. -------------------------------------------- And bodily sensations, tastes, odors, and namas as well - but that last indirectly reduces to rupas. ----------------------------------------- With metta, Alex =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103731 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:45 pm Subject: Re: "Hard in practice, easy in daily life!" kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" wrote: > > Alex, > Ken has a lot of scriptural support in saying that the "natural way of development is through listening and considering dhamma," but the listening is listening and the considering is yoniso manasikara, which is wise attention. There's little room for "thinking about", "conceptualizing", "theorizing", "speculating"... ------- Hi Dan (Alex and Ken O), Ken has a lot of scriptural support in saying that the "natural way of development is through listening and considering dhamma," but the listening is listening and the considering is yoniso manasikara, which is wise attention. There's little room for "thinking about", "conceptualizing", "theorizing", "speculating"... ----------------- There is plenty of room for those things. Panna can be present when a concept is experienced. That's what we call pariyatti. --------------------------- D: > Hand-to-hand combat with kilesas, effort with hair-burning urgency, strong determination, etc.? Absolutely. ----------------- No need for any special practice: Right effort arises whenever right understanding arises. They are inseparable. ---------------------- D: > And 99.99% of the effort will be "wrong effort", but that one in 10,000 "right effort" is a precious moment. ----------------------- The wrong effort that arises with wrong understanding will increase the kilesas. It will lead away from enlightenment, not towards it. It will erode the conditions for right effort. And so wrong effort is worse than no effort at all. ------------------------------ D: > Someone may try to discourage you: "Who's practicing?" "Who can control cittas?" "It's all 'wrong effort'..." ------------------------------ Yes, if you're lucky someone may discourage you from wrong practice, and guide you towards right practice. -------------------------------- D: > And with the 9,999 wrong efforts, the answer is "ME!" It doesn't matter. It make take 9,999 wrong efforts to get a right effort, -------------------------------- It does matter. Wrong view and wrong effort must avoided wherever possible. They are the greatest of all dangers. ----------------------------------------- D: > but in practice wrong effort after wrong effort after wrong effort have to be attempted. Only after all the wrong efforts have been diligently tried and seen as wrong (not conceptualized or theorized as wrong) can right effort be recognized. ---------------------------------------- I don't know where that particular teaching came from, but I do know it is very dangerous. -------------------- D: > All the books and intellectual understanding in the world don't help if there is no wise practice (after winnowing out tons of unwise practice) to set conditions for natural reflex of wise attitude. -------------------- Stick around, Dan, I am sure we can help you. Ken H #103732 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:00 pm Subject: Aryans do not feel pleasant mental feelings? truth_aerator Dear Nina, KenO, all, ""Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental." Also "The discerning person, learned, doesn't sense a (mental) feeling of pleasure or pain: This is the difference in skillfulness between the sage & the person run-of-the-mill. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html Note: p1) So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. p2) "doesn't sense a (mental) feeling of pleasure or pain:" So an Aryan doesn't sense (sukha or dukkha, in pali). How can this be? Doesn't this contradict the Abhidhamma teaching that wholesome states for an aryan can be with mental sukha? In fact the SN 36.06 denies any (except perhaps equanimity) mental feeling for a noble disciple.... Considering that Equanimity can be found in sukha (if accompanied by knowledge) or dukkha (equanimity of unknowing, dullness) - The SN 36.6 denies that mental feeling as well! "When this was said, Pancakanga the carpenter said to Ven. Udayin, "The Blessed One has not spoken of three feelings. He has spoken of two feelings: a feeling of pleasure and a feeling of pain. As for the feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, the Blessed One has spoken of it as a refined pleasure."" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.019.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.059.than.html This all contradicts CMA. With metta, Alex #103733 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:17 pm Subject: Re: Aryans do not feel pleasant mental feelings? dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: #103732 > > C: If I may yet again intrude... as you are using different term from different sources; perhaps, it may be helpful to define your terms... to make sure we all are on the same page, so to write... What are your definitions for: 1. well-instructed disciple of the noble ones? 2. The discerning person, learned? 3. sage? 4. Aryan? 5. sukha? 6. dukkha? Also, you agree, the Buddha is a special case; some what unlike an arahant? Warm thanks for your consideration of my questions. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103734 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:56 pm Subject: Without Views! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Adopting a particular View, Generates a particular Future! The Buddha often emphasized that any view leads to a specific future being: When one regards one's own views and opinions as the best, seeing all other views as inferior, that very tenacious attitude, the experts know as a knot! A Bhikkhu should thus not depend upon anything seen, heard or thought of.. Neither should he form any views based on his knowledge, virtuous conduct, or vows. He should not think of himself as neither equal, nor inferior, nor as superior to anything or anybody. Having relinquished what had been taken up, and not taking anything new up again, not depending even upon knowledge, not a member of any faction, he does not believe in any view at all... They do neither form or adopt any views, nor do they prefer or select any opinion, nor do they cling to any particular dogma. Gone to the far shore, such a one does not come back again! For him who has no desire for renewed existence neither here nor beyond, for him there are no form of being whatever, that he would propel into through having decided among the particular views... Sutta-Nipata 796-803 Edited excerpt. MAKER OF CATASTROPHES Whatever an enemy might do to an enemy, or one hater might do to another blinded by hate, the mind wrongly directed by false or evil view, may do to oneself, yet even far much worse!!! Dhammapada Illustration 42 Background Story 42 WRONG VIEW Seeing wrong, where there is no wrong, while ignoring the wrong, when it really is there, such false views lead to a painful future state... Dhammapada Illustration 318 Background Story 318+319 HAPPY VIEW Knowing the wrong as wrong, and the right to be right, such correct view brings one to a happy future state. Dhammapada Illustration 319 Background Story 318+319 <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #103735 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:45 pm Subject: Re: Re[10]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas upasaka_howard Hi - In a message dated 12/21/2009 6:57:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cerovzt@... writes: Dear Howard, you wrote: > Even the "real" phenomena I listed above, the so called > paramatha dhammas, are conventional and dependent to a degree on thinking, > due to our perceiving (sa~n~na) of them and conceiving of them as entities > distinct in themselves, with "nature-given," well-delineated, fixed natures, > and fixed start and end points. Even these vary in nature and "intensity" > throughout the period of their duration, but our identification of a > multiplicity as "a single dhamma" throughout that period is a matter of > convention. Though there is constant change, yet we say "a single paramattha dhamma." > That is, we *identify* differing qualities as "the same". That is what > identification is all about, mentally grouping differing qualities and events > as a unit. The word 'identity' is from the Latin 'idem et idem', meaning > "same and same," and identification is the mental "making same" of disparate > qualities. > Only in our thinking are there graspable entities. In reality, there > is just an unnameable, ungraspable flux of experience. The conventional > separations we impose are useful but ultimately false. what you says here sounds very satisfactory to my doubts. This explanation has been brilliant to me, able to clarify me. ---------------------------------------------------- Let me say, though, that the Abhidhammikas here would not agree with my perspective. They consider paramattha dhammas to be realities with own being and own nature. ----------------------------------------------------- I think my error was in being unable to conciliate the anatta of all dhammas with the characteristic of being a perpetual flux of experience. ----------------------------------------------------- Again, while I consider change to be constant, the Abhidhammikas do not. They consider experience to be not a continuously changing stream, but a sequence of discrete mind states, each having some very brief (but positive) duration, with one following upon another like frames of a movie film. --------------------------------------------------- Even when my practice it's the same regarding "there is seeing, there is toching...", now I suspect my failure was in being unaware of the movement of grasping, because it is able to embrace that product of the reason as another delusion without final reality, and therefore something to be detached in final terms. Here, in the perpetual movement arises the need of an established relation of dependence among the objects of understanding but is in the -self the only place in where these relations can abide, because the perpetual flux is anatta and therefore the relations involved are another convention only needed for the understanding but of course not for anatta. I want to thank you very much your help and also to Nina and Ken to keep the threat alive for me until here. ----------------------------------------------------- Just to be clear, the perspective shared by Nina and Ken is different from mine. ----------------------------------------------------- Still I should deep in what it implies but to me it has been as a first hole in a siege, and now I suspect how I can conciliate my actual understanding with what I can learn from now. These days all is measured with money but there are things that didn't have price. Lot of thanks Howard, ------------------------------------------------------- You are certainly welcome. :-) ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103736 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:33 pm Subject: Re: The Life Span of a Citta dhammasaro Good friend Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Jon, et al > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > Hi Chuck > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > > > > Good friends all... > > > > > > It is a mind-moment (cittakkhana). > > > > > > So, how long is a mind-moment. > > > =============== > > > >Jon: > > As far as I know, this piece of information was never explicated by the Buddha or explained in the commentaries. > > > > To my understanding, it is not something that needs to be known in order for the path to be developed. Remember, there was much the Buddha knew that he did not explain because it was not relevant to obtaining release from samsara. > > > > > =============== > > > Please no extraneous stuff. Just simply answer the question. If you can not, please practice "noble silence." > > > =============== > > > > Apologies if I've strayed into the realm of "extraneous stuff" ;-)) > > > > Jon > > > ... > > C: Good friend Jon, sincere warm thanks for your comments. > > You are correct, it needs not be known. > > Question 1: Are not the majority of topics on this forum not needed to be known, as well? > > Question 2: I am a long time member. I do not recall reading my e-mail where a member was questioned, by good friend Nina, as I was. To me, it is extraordinary!!! Perhaps, insulting!!! > > Again, sincere warm thanks for your comments. They are correct. To me, as a householder, following the precepts and meditation are utmost important!!! > > All else can be considered garbage!!! It needs not be known through this forum. Nor from books as a very respected personage states. Through meditation it will be known!!! > > peace my good friend, Jon > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > ... C: No kind reply to my two questions in reply to your assertion, Jon? pax tecum [Latin for "Peace to you."] Jon, metta (maitri), Chuck #103737 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:49 pm Subject: Vitakko Vicaaro As Vaciisankhaaro Re: The matter that concepts are made of ... abhidhammika Dear Alex, Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Howard, Phil, Freewaru, Robertr K, Sarah, Jon How are you? Alex wrote: "When we think, what is happening? We subvocal talk! Thinking is talking in a learned language." In Pali texts, thinking and rethinking (vitakko, vicaaro) are called speech activities (vaciisankhaaro). Please do some research on the following Pali passages. 463. "Kati panaayye, sankhaaraa"ti? "Tayome, aavuso visaakha, sankhaaraa– kaayasankhaaro, vaciisankhaaro, cittasankhaaro"ti. "Katamo panaayye, kaayasankhaaro, katamo vaciisankhaaro, katamo cittasankhaaro"ti? "Assaasapassaasaa kho, aavuso visaakha, kaayasankhaaro, vitakkavicaaraa vaciisankhaaro, saññaa ca vedanaa ca cittasankhaaro"ti. "Kasmaa panaayye, assaasapassaasaa kaayasankhaaro, kasmaa vitakkavicaaraa vaciisankhaaro, kasmaa saññaa ca vedanaa ca cittasankhaaro"ti? "Assaasapassaasaa kho, aavuso visaakha, kaayikaa ete dhammaa kaayappa.tibaddhaa, tasmaa assaasapassaasaa kaayasankhaaro. Pubbe kho, aavuso visaakha, vitakketvaa vicaaretvaa pacchaa vaacam bhindati, tasmaa vitakkavicaaraa vaciisankhaaro. Saññaa ca vedanaa ca cetasikaa ete dhammaa cittappa.tibaddhaa, tasmaa saññaa ca vedanaa ca cittasankhaaro"ti. 464. "Katham panaayye, saññaavedayitanirodhasamaapatti hotii"ti? "Na kho, aavuso visaakha, saññaavedayitanirodham samaapajjantassa bhikkhuno evam hoti– `aham saññaavedayitanirodham samaapa jjissan'ti vaa, `aham saññaavedayitanirodham samaapajjaamii'ti vaa, `aham saññaavedayitanirodham samaapanno'ti vaa. Atha khvaassa pubbeva tathaa cittam bhaavitam hoti yam tam tathattaaya upanetii"ti. "Saññaavedayitanirodham samaapajjantass panaayye, bhikkhuno katame dhammaa pa.thamam nirujjhanti– yadi vaa kaayasankhaaro, yadi vaa vaciisankhaaro, yadi vaa cittasankhaaro"ti? "Saññaavedayitanirodham samaapajjantassa kho, aavuso visaakha, bhikkhuno pa.thamam nirujjhati vaciisankhaaro, tato kaayasankhaaro, tato cittasankhaaro"ti. Section 463, Section 464, Muulapa.n.naasapaali, Majjhimanikkaayo. The above sections show the advantages available to the practitioners of formal samatha and vipassanaa at the highest levels. The advantages are the abilities to perform cessation of thinking and rethinking (speech activities), breathing functions (bodily activities) and memory and feeling (mental activities). Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #103738 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] pdf ptaus1 Dear Nina, > N: The same Ven. sent me off list a pdf, same formatting etc. and this > was perfect. pt: Okay, so you have no more problems with it anymore, right? > N: Perhaps the first one was a picture, as you said. pt: It wasn't a picture - I think I might have figured it out now. I'll explain a bit what was probably the problem in case you encounter a similar problem in the future. 1. You can tell that it's not a picture because the text tool is working - i.e. you can select a sentence, a word, but when you try to copy and paste into a different program, it doesn't work. If it was a picture, you wouldn't be able to select individual words/sentences, but only square selections with select tool (which looks like a square). 2. It's more probable that the actual problem is that your Preview application is too old to read some of the newly created pdf documents. I get the same problem on my old mac (with Preview version 2.1 from 2004). But when I checked Ven.Pandita's document on a newer mac today at work - it was working perfectly, including the copying and pasting! The Preview version there is 4.2. 3. So, check your Preview version - when you open Preview - in the top menu bar - click on "Preview" option, a menu will pop up and the very first option in the menu will be "About Preview". Click on it, and it will give you a small pop-up window that will tell you what's the version number. If it's older than version 4, then it would be a good idea to update it if that's possible (probably by upgrading to a newer OS X version). 4. Another simple thing you can do is to download Adobe Acrobat Reader for mac - it's free and often pdfs which won't work in Preview work in Adobe. I just downloaded an old version of Adobe Reader from 2007, and Ven.Pandita's pdf works in it fine, including copying and pasting (in fact I'm sorry that I didn't think of doing this earlier). If you want to download it, please let me know what's you OS X version and processor, and I'll send you a link for the matching version download. You can check what's your OS X version by clicking on the blue apple in the top left corner - it will give you a pop-up menu and the very first option in it will be "About this mac". Click on it and it will give you a pop-up window where it will give you the OS X version number, processor, etc. 5. In the future, whenever you have a problem with your computer, it's generally crucial to let the people know what is your OSX version number, what's the name and version of the software that's giving you trouble, the file in question, and description of the problem. With this info, computer people can easily pin down the problem. 6. If you can't be bothered with all this, maybe in the future just send me the link to the problematic file and I'll try to convert it into something you can use. Best wishes pt #103739 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship ptaus1 Hi Chuck, > C: In Buddhism, there are two definitions for a bodhisatta (Skt: bodhisattva). The Mahayana definition differs from the Theravadin. > > The historic Buddha was a bodhisatta before becoming Enlightened, an arahant(Skt: arahat) and a Buddha. > > In Theravada, a bodhisatta has not attained Arahant. pt: Yes, that was my understanding too. Also, thanks for the quotes from your post #103600. A question - when you were a monk in Thailand, have you perhaps encountered some (Theravada) monks who were in bodhisatta training? I heard there were a few small groups of them in Thailand, but no specific details. If you did encounter them, did you maybe notice any differences in their training compared to the other monks? Thanks. Best wishes pt #103740 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about nimitta ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Re: 102068 Thanks for your reply. I though about it, and here's what still doesn't make much sense: > S: Let's be clear that there can never be a concept without the experiencing of it. So when we read about dhammas, it may be a condition for wise reflection later. The concepts about dhammas on their own don't condition anything. There has to be the hearing and thinking about those concepts in order for them to condition wise attention. pt: Okay, but hearing and thinking are still in essence operations with concepts, no? So, by that it would still mean that concepts themselves are one of the conditions for un/wise reflection, no? Further, if a concept can be object of citta, then would it not also qualify for exerting force as object condition as well? > > pt: 2. why is it often said that concepts are unconditioned if we just said that concepts can both act as condition and be conditioned? what am I missing? > ... > S: Maybe missing the understanding of paramattha dhammas at this moment? :-)) pt: Okay, that was funny :) Further on the topic: 1. A mind-door process that is not the immediate one after the sense-door process, has a concept as the object (be it color, shape, or smth else). Now, as you and Nina said to Alex recently, sanna coordinates all the cetasikas during the 10 cittas of the mind-door process, and is directed at (occupied with) the object of citta (concept). If that is so, then where did the concept "come from" in the first place? Previously I thought that concepts are brought about by sanna, but I'm not sure anymore this is very accurate description. I.e. it more seems that a certain "way" that cittas and cetasikas come together equals to a certain (illusory) "concept", like the shape of a square for example. I guess what I'm trying to say is that sanna coordinates cetasikas in a certain manner, and that particular manner corresponds to a certain "concept". Is this anywhere near correct? 2. Regarding insight: - When panna arises in the first mind-door process that follows the sense-door process, the object of panna is the paramattha dhamma (rupa) that has just fallen away. Okay. - But if panna arises in one of the consequent mind-door processes, it's directed towards what? I.e. the object of citta at that moment is a concept, so panna would also be directed at a concept? That seems weird. - Or would there inevitably have to follow another mind-door process, which will now have the previous citta (paramattha dhamma) as the object and panna will know that last citta's object was a concept. So now the object of the current citta is a paramttha dhamma (last citta). Right? 3. There are several levels of panna: First, I take it is the conceptual understanding. Second, understanding of what's kusala and what's akusala. Third, the actual stages of insight beginning with being able to tell apart the sense-door process and mind-door process. At which point out of these three can be said that citta arises with amoha as the third root? Thanks. Best wishes pt #103741 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship dhammasaro Good friend pt, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi Chuck, > > > C: In Buddhism, there are two definitions for a bodhisatta (Skt: bodhisattva). The Mahayana definition differs from the Theravadin. > > > > The historic Buddha was a bodhisatta before becoming Enlightened, an arahant(Skt: arahat) and a Buddha. > > > > In Theravada, a bodhisatta has not attained Arahant. > > pt: Yes, that was my understanding too. Also, thanks for the quotes from your post #103600. > > A question - when you were a monk in Thailand, have you perhaps encountered some (Theravada) monks who were in bodhisatta training? I heard there were a few small groups of them in Thailand, but no specific details. If you did encounter them, did you maybe notice any differences in their training compared to the other monks? Thanks. > > Best wishes > pt > C: No, not identified as such. I did meet a monk at a monastery near Kanchanaburi. A bit of background: Over many months, my ajahn had received many Mahanikaya colored robes. As we were of the Dhammayutika (sp), I suggested we donate the robes at a wat with many novices where I knew the abbot. While there, I did encounter a young monk (PhD candidate) whom asked if I knew about the Mahayana Tradition. I answered I did and it was very popular in the USA. He replied, "It is very easy. It is the way" Unfortunately, I was called away and was unable to continue the discussion. Perhaps, he was a member of this training. I do plan to visit the wat and the abbot while here. Perhaps, I will be able to continue the discussion. If you have any further information, please provide it. I will check with my ajahn (Dhammayutika (sp)) at Wat Bovonieves. After returning to USA, I will check with my ajahn (Mahanikaya) at Wat Thai Washington DC. Sincere warm thanks for your message. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103742 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship dhammasaro Good friend pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friends all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > > Good friends all, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > ... > > Good friend pt, I hope the excerpts are of use to you: > > In the Gopakamoggallaana Sutta a brahman asks the Venerable AAnanda whether there is a single monk who is completely endowed with all the qualities with which the Buddha is endowed. AAnanda replies that there is not a single monk who is so endowed. > > ... > > The Buddha's standpoint can be illustrated with the help of a simile. He was like a lonely man who was lost in the fearful wilderness of sa.msaara and earnestly sought a way out. As he had to spend a long time in this vast terrible forest he had to learn a great deal about the forest itself. To survive he had to learn about edible and poisonous plants and fruits; he had to learn the habits and habitats of wild animals; he had to climb trees in order to discover in which direction there were signs of a human settlement, etc. But at long last, when he did discover a straight path leading out of the wilderness, he thought, quite rightly, that it was a waste of time to teach about the ways of the forest to others who are also lost in the wilderness. It is most useful and urgent if he devoted his time and energy to point out the path to other suffering beings. This is exactly the function of a Buddha. Therefore he refrained from teaching what was irrelevant to emancipation. This clearly shows that the Buddha is far superior to other arahants regarding knowledge about matters not directly related to Nibbana. > > ... > > Among arahants too there are differences in attainment. In one place the Buddha states that in a group of 500 monks sixty are arahants with the six higher knowledges (cha.labhi~n~naa), sixty are arahants with the three clear knowledges (tevijjaa), another sixty are arahants liberated from both parts (ubhatobhaagavimutta), while the rest are arahants liberated by wisdom (pa~n~naavimutta) > > ... > > While the highest qualities attainable by an arahant are certainly found in the Buddha,11 the Suttas assign additional qualifications to the Buddha which are not shared by other arahants. The Mahaasiihanaada Sutta describes ten special powers of the Buddha called tathaagatabala > > ... > > To peruse the document, see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/desilva/wheel407.html#n-1-32 > > peace... > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > C: In a separate message, you acknowledged positively the above message. Very sincere warm thanks for the confirmation. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103743 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am Subject: Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. sarahprocter... Dear pt, #102521 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > What is confusing me about this topic is how can we even talk about an "object" that has a certain characteristic (pleasant or not) at this stage of the cognitive process - at the beginning of the sense-door process: <...> > - So, on what basis is it said that the "object" of seeing consciousness, which has no distinguishing features yet, is pleasant or unpleasant or anything at all at that moment? .... S: Nina and others replied, I believe, but I meant to also refer you to the following in "Useful Posts": >Rupa13- intrinsic/specific qualities - desirable/undesirable You'll find lots more.... Please raise anything further of interest. Metta Sarah ====== #103744 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:46 am Subject: Re: The Life Span of a Citta jonoabb Hi Chuck (103609) > C: Good friend Jon, sincere warm thanks for your comments. > > You are correct, it needs not be known. > > Question 1: Are not the majority of topics on this forum not needed to be known, as well? > =============== There are many things mentioned in the suttas or discussed in the texts that need not be directly known or are beyond our potential to know at this stage, yet are things that it's helpful to know about. However, things that are not mentioned in the texts and are not necessary to be known may not be so useful to discuss. > =============== > Question 2: I am a long time member. I do not recall reading my e-mail where a member was questioned, by good friend Nina, as I was. To me, it is extraordinary!!! Perhaps, insulting!!! > =============== I think you misunderstood Nina's question. She was simply questioning the relevance of that piece of information to the development of the path. I think that, as a long-time member, you will know that this kind of questioning happens quite a lot on this list ;-)). > =============== > Again, sincere warm thanks for your comments. They are correct. To me, as a householder, following the precepts and meditation are utmost important!!! > =============== To my understanding, while all kinds of kusala are important, only kusala of the kind known as vipassana bhavana can be considered to be the development of the path leading to enlightenment and escape from samsara (and this is perhaps the most-discussed topic on this list!). > =============== > All else can be considered garbage!!! It needs not be known through this forum. Nor from books as a very respected personage states. Through meditation it will be known!!! > =============== That depends of course on your definition of "meditation". But would you agree that the Satipatthana Sutta describes how awareness and insight leading to enlightenment may be developed? Jon #103745 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] suraamerayamajjapamaadat.t.haanaa sarahprocter... Dear Han & Chew #102821 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > suraamerayamajjapamaada.t.thaanaa = > suraameraya + majja + pamaada + .t.thaanaa > > suraameraya: [nt.] rum and spirits, alcoholic drinks. > majja: [nt.] an intoxicant > pamaada: carelessness, negligence, indolence, remissness, heedlessness. > .t.thaana has many meanings. Here, it means the condition or the reason for. > > The intoxicating drink that is the reason for negligence and heedlessness. > > -------------------- > > In one Burmese book, > > suraa + meraya + majja + pamaada + .t.thaana = > > becoming courageous + intoxicating drink + becoming conceited and boisterous + forgetting kusala dhammas + reason for. > > Sarah and Nina may have better ideas. ... S: Apologies for a slow response. I liked the Burmese translation. In an earlier message, I referred to the text in the Sammohavinodanii under "Classification of the Training Precepts (Sikkhaapadavibha"nga): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25544 Here's the (full) paragraph that I'm thinking of in particular: "1907. Suraamerayamajjapamaada.t.thaanaa (from causes for indulgence in the intoxicants of liquor and strong drink): here suraa (liquor) is of five kinds: flour (pi.t.tha) liquor, cake (puuva) liquor, boiled rice (odana) liquor, that which has yeast put in it (ki.n.na-pakkhitta) and blended (sambhaarasampayutta). Meraya ('strong drink') is the five kinds of germented brews (aasava): flower brew (pupphaasava), fruit brew (phalaasava), treacle brew (gu.laasava), honey brew (madhaasava) and blended. Both of these are majja ('intoxicants') in the sense of producing intoxication. The volition whereby they drink is the pamaada.t.thaana ('cause of negligence') because of being the reason for negligence. therefore it is 'from causes for negligence in respect of the intoxicants of liquor and strong drink' (suraameraya-majjamhi pamaada.t.thaanaa). This firstly is the meaning of the setting-out of the schedule. For many more useful reminders on the topic, see in "Useful Posts" under: 'Drinking alcohol & Drugs' For example: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2784 Metta Jon M wrote: "The first one that comes to mind is Dhammapada 247-248 (Chapter 18, [Impurities], verses 12-13): "Whosoever in this world destroys life, tells lies, takes what is not given, goes to another's wife, and is given to the use of intoxicants, such a one digs up his own roots in this world." A reference that really spells things out is in the Dhammika Sutta of the Sutta Nipata (Sn.398-399): "The layman who joyfully abides in self-control, knowing that the use of intoxicants results in loss of self-control, should not indulge in taking intoxicants, nor should he cause others to do so, nor approve of others so doing. Fools commit evil deeds as a result of intoxication, and cause others who are negligent to do the same. One should avoid this occasion for evil, this madness, this delusion, this joy of fools." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25363 Sarah: In the Minor Readings, the Ten Training Precepts,46, we read: "The fruits of abstention from the opportunity-for-negligence-due-to-liquor-wine-and-besotting-drink are such things as swift recognition of past, future and present tasks to be done, constant establishment of mindfulness, freedom from madness, possession of knowledge, non-procrastination, non-stupidity, non-drivellingness, non-intoxication, non-negligence, non-confusion, non-timorousness, non-presumption, unenviousness, truthfulness, freedom from malicious and harsh speech and from gossip, freedom from dullness both night and day, gratitude, gratefulness, unavariciousness, liberality, virtuousness, rectitude, unangriness, possession of conscience, possession of shame, rectitude of view, great understanding, wisdom, learnedness, skill in (distinguishing) good from harm, and so on." **** Metta Sarah ======== #103746 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:02 am Subject: Re: Printing posts jonoabb Hi pt, Sarah and All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for this. I don't really know a better way, as I've never printed the posts (prefer electronic), but it looks fine to me. The only thing I might suggest is to try printing straight from the browser instead of having to select and paste into notepad/word. Though I imagine the print might not be as neat as when edited in word. > =============== Pasting text into Word that has been copied from the list opened in IE or Firefox appears in Word as a table which then has to be converted into text. The reason for pasting into Notepad first is to get rid of the table formatting before pasting into Word. However, the same text copied from Opera can be pasted directly into Word without appearing in table format. So Opera is the most convenient browser to use if doing this copying and pasting regularly. Jon > > 1. Go to DSG homepage > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/ > > ... > > 7. I then copy into 'notepad' and then to a word file, condense and cut out all the unnecessary parts and spaces to minimise the pages and print out from there. #103747 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Chew (Connie & all), #102811 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sadhu Chew" wrote: > evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosaran.aa. Appamaado tesa.m [tesa.m dhammaana.m (sii. ka.) sa.m. ni. 5.139] aggamakkhaayati. > > In the same way, all skillful qualities are rooted in heedfulness, converge in heedfulness, and heedfulness is reckoned the foremost among them. > ---- ... S: As it happened, in the message before this one, Connie ("the morning after?") quoted the following: "Group of Discourses: 1034. 'Streams flow everywhere', said the venerable Ajita. 'What is the restraint for streams? Tell me the constraint for streams. By what are streams dammed?' 1035. 'Whatever streams there are in the world, Ajita', said the Blessed One, 'their restraint is mindfulness. I will tell you the constraint for streams. They are dammed by wisdom.'" ... S: The restraint (sa"mvara) that is mindfulness (sati) is the heedfulness (appamaada)that all kusala states are 'rooted' in. And the streams are dammed by wisdom, pa~n~naa... Metta Sarah ====== #103748 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. jonoabb Hi KenO (and Alex) (103650) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > >Please clarify this point. According to your views, is it acceptable to develop *present moment awareness of namarupa happening now? Or do you just stick to sutamayapanna? > > KO: Yes. we need to learn from books and listening in order to develop awareness of nama rupa. Pse do know that study is not just on books, it is also about studying nama and rupa when they are present. This practise is about breaking out the strangulations of sakkaya ditthi, later on to Arahatship, We must break this habit of conceptualisation, we conceive self which is a conceptualisation of being in aggregates. When we see a new beautiful car, it is just visible object. When we keep thinking it as a car, then we are placing a being/self on the car which is actually a visible rupa. That is sakkaya ditthi. > =============== I think sakkaya-ditthi must be more that just thinking of a car as a car, i.e., mere conceptualisation (even if accompanied by strong lobha). There is nothing wrong with conceptualisation per se; to my understanding, the arahant still conceptualises, but does so without mistaking things as being other than what they are. Jon #103749 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:50 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, It is hard to observe the precepts perfectly in all circumstances. If one has confidence in the benefit of kusala, one can gradually train oneself in observing the precepts. One may generally not be inclined to kill insects, but when one’s house is full of fleas one may be tempted to kill. Killing may sometimes seem a quick and easy way to solve one’s problems. One needs more effort to abstain from killing, but if one has confidence in kusala one will look for other ways to solve one’s problems and abstain from killing. However, only those who have attained enlightenment will never transgress the five precepts, not even for the sake of their health or their life. The development of right understanding of the realities of our life leads to the perfection of moral conduct. Paying respect to those who deserve respect is included in good moral conduct. In Buddhist countries it is a tradition to pay respect to parents, teachers, elderly people, monks and novices. At such moments there is an opportunity to give expression to one’s appreciation for their good qualities, for their wisdom and guidance, and the assistance they have given. We see layfollowers paying respect to monks by clasping their hands and bowing their head, or by prostrating the body and touching the floor with the forehead, the forearms and knees. When one has not lived in a Buddhist country one may wonder why people are paying respect to monks in such a humble way. The monks have retired from worldly life in order to lead a life of detachment. Even if they are not perfect, they can remind us of those who have reached perfection. In Buddhist countries one can also see people prostrating themselves before a Buddha statue. This is not idol worship or a way of praying to the Buddha. One cannot pray to the Buddha since he is not in a heavenly plane or in any other place. He has passed away completely not to be reborn again. One can remember the Buddha’s virtues, his wisdom, compassion and purity, and give expression to one’s respect for his virtues in gesture and speech. It depends on the individual’s inclination in which way he shows respect. One may show respect to someone out of selfish motives, such as desire for favours, but in that case the citta is akusala citta. When one pays respect or shows politeness with a sincere inclination, it is kusala citta. At such a moment there is no attachment or pride. ***** Nina. #103750 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] pdf nilovg Dear pt, thank you very much. iMac: 4,1 Preview 3.0.7. As you said, too old. Looking at Google for downloads adobe acrobat, but very complicated.Do you have a link? Nina. #103751 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:41 am Subject: Re: Ptsm: nanas - of Buddha sarahprocter... Dear pt, (Dieter*, Alex & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > According to Ptsm: > > [Knowledge Not Shared by Disciples ] > > > LXVIII. Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties -- > > indriyaparopariyattinana. > > > > LXIX. Knowledge of beings' biasses and underlying tendencies -- asayanusayanana. > > > > LXX. Knowledge of the Twin Metamorphosis (Marvel) -- yamakapatihariyanana. > > > > LXXI. Knowledge of the Great Compassion -- mahakarunasamapattinana. > > > > LXXII. Omniscient Knowledge -- sabbannutanana. > > > > LXXIII. Unobstructed Knowledge -- anavarananana. > > I did a bit of digging - in the suttas, the unshared abilities of a Buddha are listed a bit differently, I'm not sure whether these are two different classifications of the same thing, or there are actual differences? > > In MN12: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.012.ntbb.html > 1) 10 powers of the the Tathagata are listed, some of which are shared by disciples but never to an extent that the Buddha develops them and some of the ten also overlap with the Ptsm list. > > 2) four kinds of fearlessness (intrepidity) > > In MN137: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.137.than.html > 3) 3 frames of reference that seem to be unique to a Tathagata > > And I believe Mahayana people would also add limitless mahakaruna as distinction of a Buddha. ... S: This may be included in LXX1 above which is pointing to the incomparable mahakaruna of the Buddha. ... > Also, I have a little note that I wrote down some time ago, which says: "In the Dispeller of Delusion, Ch 16, under Decads, the ten powers of the Buddha have been described. See also Book of Analysis, Ch 16." But I haven't had the chance to get my hands on these books yet to check what's actually said in there. ... S: Yes, there is a wealth of very extensive detail in both these texts. (*also a long section on schisms which made me think of my discussions with Dieter and one on the final coming together of the relics which made me think of our earlier discussion, Scott - maybe more later.) It's quite difficult for me to briefly extrapolate from and list the powers mentioned. These seem to be along the lines of: 1. the Buddha's knowledge of causes and absence of causes, roots, results of past, future and present actions. (All-embracing down to the fine details, hence the inclusion of detail even of the relics, effect of schisms etc). 2. the Buddha's knowledge of destinies, results of kamma in detail. 3. The Buddha's knowledge of the paths, the practices leading to the various destinies. 4. the Buddha's knowledge of the various khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus "The world of many elements and different elements" in extraordinary detail, inc. the world of formations not grasped at such as: "When this element is prominetn, this tree's trunk is white, this one's is black, this one's is smooth, this one has thick bark...." and so on. 5. The Buddha's knowledge of different dispositions of beings, present, past and future, diverse kamma as a result. 6. The Buddha's knowledge of the improvement and deterioration of the factulties of beings, the latent tendencies, those that can be easily instructed ('with little dust in their eyes') and so on. 7. The Buddha's knowledge of the corruption of, the perfection of, the emergence from jhana, relase, attainment of jhana. The four types of jhana practioner. 8. The Buddha's knowledge of his "manifold former lives" - see Vism. - aeons of devolving and evolving - when he had such a name, such a colour, such food, such pleasure and pain... 9. The Buddha's knowledge by way of divine eye (dibbacakkhu) of passing away and rebirth of beings, all the destinies involved and so on. 10. The Buddha's knowledge of the destruction of defilements, the cetovimutti (mind deliverance) or fruition concentration and pa~n~naavimutti (understanding deliverance) or fruition knowledge. **** There is, as I said, a wealth of detail in the texts - perhaps more in due course... This is just a very rough summary. Metta Sarah ======== #103752 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Jon Yes thanks for highlighting in sakkaya ditthit. Sometimes I do get carry away. Concepts and lobha are two different aspects. What we crave after conceptualisation of the car is in the mind door but what we crave after a visible rupa is in the sense door :-) cheers Ken O #103753 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives, 316, 11, 12, and commentary. nilovg Dear Scott, You give us a welcome reminder added to the Sangiiti sutta. Someone may mistakenly think that there is his siila, that there is a person who possesses it or can lose it. But as you say, it is the presence or absence of certain dhammas, they arise and fall away with the citta. Nina. Op 20-dec-2009, om 18:03 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > Siila is the presence or absence of certain dhammaa ('loss of siila > is wrong siila'- still a dhamma). Some say, 'Where is your > compassion? Don't you realize that there are people we are dealing > with here?' Some get caught up in ideas about people, which > includes ideas about a 'compassionate giver' who, more often than > not, feels slighted when it is made clear that he or she doesn't > really exist. It is hard to think that there is no 'my' siila. #103754 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aryans do not feel pleasant mental feelings? nilovg Dear Alex, I only looked at S. 36, 6, it may be the translation. Pts: He is not swayed by feelings. Sukha or dukkha does not affect him. Indeed, the arahat has no longer mental unpleasant feeling, since dosa is eradicated. He has mahaakiriyacittas instead of mahaakusala cittas and these can be accompanied by happy feeling or indifferent feeling. He is not attached to any feeling. I see no contradictions. NIna. Op 22-dec-2009, om 5:00 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Considering that Equanimity can be found in sukha (if accompanied > by knowledge) or dukkha (equanimity of unknowing, dullness) - The > SN 36.6 denies that mental feeling as well! #103755 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] suraamerayamajjapamaadat.t.haanaa chewsadhu Dear Sarah, Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: #103745 > > #103756 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) chewsadhu Dear Sarah, Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: #103747 > #103757 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:49 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (316, 13-14) nichiconn Dear Friends, the sutta continues: CSCD < Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aryans do not feel pleasant mental feelings? ashkenn2k Dear Alex An Arahant can sense mental pleasant feelings 28 Sariputtasamyutta, No 2. Without Thought <<"Here friend, with the subsiding of thought and examination, I entered and dwelt in the second jhana. which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without thought and examination, and has rapture and happines born of concentration....>> using Nyanaponika version in your hyperlink Also we must see the whole context of the sutta. It is based on the difference of worldings and Arahants and the differences when each face a different type of feeling. When it is said The wise one laerned, does not feel pleasant and mental feeling, this is the to the regards of the above sutta context where <> The pleasant in the verse is about attachment to sensual pleasure while the painful feeling is about resistance to the painful feelings. So a well thought disciple would be detach from any of these. Or in another way, he does not feel means feeling of worlding feelings that is connected with sense pleasure and aversion. That is what is meant in the verse as seen later in the text [He knows, according to facts, the arising and ending of those feelings, and the gratification, the danger and the escape connected with these feelings. In him who knows thus, no underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one who is not fettered by it.' Alex - I felt on this part, your selection is bias and you took only part of the text. Buddha did said later <> There is also a comy on it. In future pse read Nyanaponika Thera versions, Comy.: "From the fourth jhana onwards, it is the neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling (that is present in these meditative states). But this neutral feeling, too, is called 'pleasure' (sukha), on account of its being peaceful and sublime. What arises by way of the five cords of sensual desire and by way of the eight meditative attainments is called 'pleasure as being felt' (vedayita-sukha). The state of Cessation of Perception and Feeling is a 'pleasure, not being felt' (avedayita-sukha). Hence, whether it be pleasure felt or not felt, both are assuredly 'pleasure,' in the sense of their being painfree states (niddukkhabhava-sankhatena sukhena)." thanks Ken O > #103759 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Hard in practice, easy in daily life!" ashkenn2k Dear Dan Interesting presentation. Its a long time we talk to each other. Are you saying wise attention is not practise? Isn't at the moment of wise attention, there is hand to hand combat with kilesa? Why do one choose to do hand to hand combat when it is already right here and right now when one sees, hear, etc Why waste the 99.9% of wrong effort and then get 0.1% right effort? Is not that a big waste of effort. And I am just asking you to see the characterisitcs of seeing which is naturally occurring :-), Cheers Ken O #103760 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Jon I need to add to clarify my thoughts. When an Arahant sees a concept, he knows it is a concept, he does not allude a being or self in that concept. When Arahant sees a car, the seeing is just a visible object and the car is just mind object. There is no confustion. But for worldings, when we see a concept, we think it is real. Just like a car which is a concept is a visible object, we thought this visible object is real, an aggregate to possess. We are not mindful that the seeing is only paramatha dhamma without a concept. We take visible object (the car) as real, as an aggregate to possess. That is why AS always say understand realities. Cheers Ken O ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ken O > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, 22 December 2009 11:18:25 > Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. > > Dear Jon > > Yes thanks for highlighting in sakkaya ditthit. Sometimes I do get carry > away. Concepts and lobha are two different aspects. What we crave after > conceptualisation of the car is in the mind door but what we crave after a > visible rupa is in the sense door :-) > #103761 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:47 am Subject: Re: Aryans do not feel pleasant mental feelings? truth_aerator Dear Chuck, all, > "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Alex, et al > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Dear Nina, KenO, all, > > > > > > ""Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental." > > > > Also > > "The discerning person, learned, doesn't sense a (mental) feeling of pleasure or pain: This is the difference in skillfulness between the sage & the person run-of-the-mill. " > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html > > > > Note: > > p1) So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. > > p2) "doesn't sense a (mental) feeling of pleasure or pain:" > > > > So an Aryan doesn't sense (sukha or dukkha, in pali). > > > > > > How can this be? Doesn't this contradict the Abhidhamma teaching that wholesome states for an aryan can be with mental sukha? > > > > In fact the SN 36.06 denies any (except perhaps equanimity) mental feeling for a noble disciple.... > > > > Considering that Equanimity can be found in sukha (if accompanied by knowledge) or dukkha (equanimity of unknowing, dullness) - The SN 36.6 denies that mental feeling as well! > > > > "When this was said, Pancakanga the carpenter said to Ven. Udayin, "The Blessed One has not spoken of three feelings. He has spoken of two feelings: a feeling of pleasure and a feeling of pain. As for the feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, the Blessed One has spoken of it as a refined pleasure."" > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.019.than.html > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.059.than.html > > > > > > This all contradicts CMA. > > > > > > With metta, > > > > Alex > > > > C: If I may yet again intrude... as you are using different term from different sources; perhaps, it may be helpful to define your terms... to make sure we all are on the same page, so to write... > > What are your definitions for: > > 1. well-instructed disciple of the noble ones? Arya savako. Stream enterer to Non-Returner. > 2. The discerning person, learned? Who knows the teaching. > 3. sage? > 4. Aryan? See above. > 5. sukha? > 6. dukkha? Sukha = happiness or "ease" Dukha = unhappiness or pain or hardship or not-ease. Generally speaking as I understand it, the mental sukha/dukkha is generally called somanassa/domanassa. However it is strange that in that sutta pali words sukkha dukkha were used. Even if they mean somanassa/domanassa it does raises a question 1) Even up to once-returning are supposed to be able to feel patigha (which according to CMA has domanassa) 2) Arahats can feel somanassa according to CMA, but not that sutta (SN 36.6). > > Also, you agree, the Buddha is a special case; some what unlike an >arahant? He is self awakened Arhant. With metta, Alex #103762 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aryans do not feel pleasant mental feelings? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > I only looked at S. 36, 6, it may be the translation. Pts: He is not > swayed by feelings. Sukha or dukkha does not affect him. > Indeed, the arahat has no longer mental unpleasant feeling, since > dosa is eradicated. He has mahaakiriyacittas instead of mahaakusala > cittas and these can be accompanied by happy feeling or indifferent > feeling. He is not attached to any feeling. I see no contradictions. > NIna. > Op 22-dec-2009, om 5:00 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > Considering that Equanimity can be found in sukha (if accompanied > > by knowledge) or dukkha (equanimity of unknowing, dullness) - The > > SN 36.6 denies that mental feeling as well! Dear Nina, all "So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html Aryan feels *ONE* pain. Alternative translation says: "It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.nypo.html Aryan feels *ONE KIND* of feeling. With metta, Alex #103763 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Aryans do not feel pleasant mental feelings? nilovg Dear Alex, but that is clear isn't it? He feels bodily painful feeling which is vipaaka, result, not mental unhappy feelings which is akusala. The two kinds of dukkha vedanaa are compared here. Nina. Op 22-dec-2009, om 18:53 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Aryan feels *ONE KIND* of feeling. #103764 From: "Daniel" Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Hard in practice, easy in daily life!" onco111 Hi Ken O, It is nice to talk with you again. > Are you saying wise attention is not practise? No, I'd always count wise attention as "practice." > Isn't at the moment of wise attention, there is hand to hand combat with kilesa? Certainly. > Why do one choose to do hand to hand combat when it is already right here and right now when one sees, hear, etc Because saying, "99.9% of effort is wrong effort" is a lousy excuse for indolence! > Why waste the 99.9% of wrong effort and then get 0.1% right effort? Because the untrained mind cannot do better. "Right effort" is not something that you bring about by deciding, "O.K. Now I'm going to make 'right effort' arise." But if you spout a torrent of efforts, occasionally a 'right' one will arise. > Is not that a big waste of effort. And I am just asking you to see the characterisitcs of seeing which is naturally occurring :-), Yes. See the characteristics of what is naturally occurring. But the veil of Maya is hard to see through and an astounding degree of right effort is needed. Dan #103765 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship ptaus1 Hi Chuck, Thanks for your reply. > > pt: A question - when you were a monk in Thailand, have you perhaps encountered some (Theravada) monks who were in bodhisatta training? ... > C: If you have any further information, please provide it. pt: I remember two Ajhans being mentioned in that regard - Ajahn Jumnien and Ajahn Plien. But don't really know anything about them. Please don't go out of your way to learn about this, only if you happen to come accros it by chance. Thanks. Best wishes pt #103766 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] pdf ptaus1 Dear Nina, > Do you have a link? Here it is for Adobe reader 7.1.0 - it should work on your imac: http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=3953 - Once it downloads - it will be a .dmg file. - Double-click it and it will open up as a (white) image hard-drive in your Finder/desktop (it will take some seconds for that to happen). - Double-click the hard-drive icon and it will open a new window a single Adobe icon in it. - Copy that icon to your OSX Applications folder (just drag it with your mouse, or go the usual copy/paste procedure). - When it's in your Application folder, double-click the Adobe icon and it should open into a sub-folder that will again have the adobe icon and a safari file with legal documents. - If installation doesn't start at this point automatically, then double-click this new Adobe icon in the sub-folder and the installation should start. - Once the installation is finished, Adobe reader should open automatically. You can then eject the white hard-drive and delete the .dmg file (unless you want to keep it for later). This version 7.1.0 came out in 2008 so it should be fine for another couple of years before it too becomes too old. There are already newer updates if you want to fiddle with them, on the page: http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?platform=macintosh&product=10 But, you would first need to update to 7.1.1, then to 7.1.3, and then to 7.1.4 - it has to be done in that order. The procedure for each would be the same as described above. Though I don't see the need for all that at the moment (and also imacs can be a little tricky) so I'd say stick to 7.1.0 until it starts giving you problems. Please let me know if you encounter any problems with this. Best wishes pt #103767 From: Vince Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:02 am Subject: Re[12]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Howard you wrote: > Just to be clear, the perspective shared by Nina and Ken is different > from mine. and is there some thread of such discussion? thanks! #103768 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:51 am Subject: Re: Ptsm: nanas - of Buddha ptaus1 Dear Sarah, > S: Yes, there is a wealth of very extensive detail in both these texts. > ... perhaps more in due course... This is just a very rough summary. Thanks for this. I hope I'll get my hands on these texts some time soon as well. I'm particularly interested in how the 4 fearlessnesses and 3 frames of reference fit into Ptsm model, if at all. Best wishes pt #103769 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aryans do not feel pleasant mental feelings? truth_aerator Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > but that is clear isn't it? He feels bodily painful feeling which is > vipaaka, result, not mental unhappy feelings which is akusala. The > two kinds of dukkha vedanaa are compared here. > Nina. > Op 22-dec-2009, om 18:53 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > Aryan feels *ONE KIND* of feeling. So you are saying that Aryan feels vipaka but doesn't produce kamma or (akusala/kusala citta) that is felt at that moment as sukha/dukkha? With metta, Alex #103770 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Hard in practice, easy in daily life!" ashkenn2k Dear Dan D: Because the untrained mind cannot do better. "Right effort" is not something that you bring about by deciding, "O.K. Now I'm going to make 'right effort' arise." But if you spout a torrent of efforts, occasionally a 'right' one will arise. KO: Since you said that right effort is not for one to decide, then how could one sprout of efforts bring results. D: Yes. See the characteristics of what is naturally occurring. But the veil of Maya is hard to see through and an astounding degree of right effort is needed. KO: At the moment of pana with kusala, isn't Maya not around. To get rid of Maya is not an easy task completely, that required an astounded effort. But such effort is done gradually. One cannot hasten it nor bring about result from doing an astounding effort presently, and furthermore how could it be done since one cannot decide. Just like Buddha took about four countless aeons and one hundred thousand aeons to accomplish his perfections. Shouldn't we be patient for panna to grow. By trying to do an astounding effort to attain right panna would make one tired and one may dishearten because it is not bringing result. And doing this astounding effort, are we hoping for result? When we long for a result, are we conditioning the panna or lobha? Cheers Ken O #103771 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:37 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 9 ashkenn2k Dear all Paramattha dhammas are not paññatti dhammas. Paramattha dhammas are realities which each have their own characteristics which can be directly experienced, even if one does not use terms to name them. Paññatti dhammas, concepts, are not absolute realities. We may see a painting of fruits, such as grapes, or mangos, and we may see real grapes, and mangos. What is then a concept? When we see a painting of mountains, of the sea, or trees, we know that it is a picture. When we see real mountains or trees do we believe that these are realities, not concepts? It is evident that names are concepts, paññattis, because they convey the characteristics or the meaning of phenomena. However, even if one does not name things yet or there is no name yet, one can already think of a concept of a “wholeâ€? or a mass. There can be a concept or idea of “somethingâ€? which appears even though one does not know any language or words to express its meaning. When we know what it is that appears, even without naming it, we know a paññatti (concept). When we see what is only a painting of fruits and real fruits, both the painting and the real fruits are paññattis. A paññatti (concept) is not a paramattha dhamma (reality). As we have seen there are many aspects with regard to paññatti. It can be an idea of a whole or a mass or it can be a name or term that refers to something, be it real or not real. What is the difference between real fruits and a painting of fruits? What appears through the eyes while one sees are not beings, people, or different things. No matter whether one sees a painting of grapes or the real grapes, through eyes only colour appears. We may believe that only the picture is a paññatti and that the real grapes are not a paññatti (concept). However, in reality the picture as well as the real grapes that appear are objects which are paññatti experienced by mind-door process cittas. The cittas of the eye-door process experience only colour which appears. The cittas of the mind-door process that experience a concept know the meaning of something, they know what something is. They know that there are grapes. Thus, the cittas (moments of consciousness) which know that there are grapes, have a concept, a paññatti, as object, not a paramattha dhamma. When we see somebody, we should know that this is in reality the same as seeing a picture, thus, we know in both cases a concept. It is difficult to separate concepts from realities, for example, when we notice that there is a chair. The object which is the paramattha dhamma appearing through the eyes and the object which is the paramattha dhamma appearing through the bodysense are not paññattis. To be continued Cheers Ken O #103772 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:39 am Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 7 ashkenn2k Dear all Q. : How should one be aware? I know that sati is aware, but how? Should there be profound consideration or a more superficial consideration of the three general characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattÃ¥? Or should there be awareness only of softness and hardness? I have understood what you taught about the practice, I listened for two or three years. However, I cannot practise. I learnt about nÃ¥ma and rúpa, but what are they? How should I be aware of them? I feel confused about awareness of dhammas at the present moment. There must be a special method for this. A special method is important. Should there be profound awareness or awareness which is more superficial, awareness for a long time or for a short time? But I take everything for self. S. : This way of acting leads to confusion. You may try to regulate sati, to have profound awareness or a more superficial awareness, to have a great deal of it or only a little, but, as regards the development of paññå there is no special method or technique. The development of paññå begins with listening to the Dhamma, and studying the realities sati can be aware of, so that understanding can grow. These are conditions for the arising of sati which is directly aware of the characteristics of nÃ¥ma and rúpa as they naturally appear. Since the nÃ¥ma and rúpa which appear are real, paññå can come to know their true nature. You should not try to regulate sati and try to make it strong or to make it decrease so that it is weak, or to make it superficial. If one acts in that way one clings to the concept of self and does not investigate and study the characteristics of the dhammas which appear. What are the realities which appear? A person who is not forgetful of realities can be aware of them as they naturally appear, he is directly aware of their characteristics. He does not try to make sati focus on an object so that it could consider that object more deeply, over and over again. Sati arises and falls away, and then there may be again forgetfulness, or sati may be aware again of another object. Thus, we can see that satipaììhÃ¥na is anattÃ¥. People who understand that all realities, including satipaììhÃ¥na, are anattÃ¥, will not be confused. If someone clings to the concept of self, he is inclined to regulate and direct sati, but he does not know the right way. If one’s practice is not natural, it is complicated and creates confusion. If awareness is natural, if it studies and considers the realities which appear, there will be understanding, no confusion. to be continued Cheers Ken O #103773 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:35 am Subject: Re: Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship dhammasaro Good friend pt, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > ... snip > > > pt: A question - when you were a monk in Thailand, have you perhaps encountered some (Theravada) monks who were in bodhisatta training? > ... > > C: If you have any further information, please provide it. > > pt: I remember two Ajhans being mentioned in that regard - Ajahn Jumnien and Ajahn Plien. But don't really know anything about them. > C: On ajahn Jumnien, I think I visited his monastery a year or two before the tsunami. We flew down to Phuket Airport to visit friends in Phrange Nga Province. They gave a tour of the area. One of the monasteries we visited was called Wat Jumnien by my friends. It was near Krabi. And, it was a somewhat famous meditation monastery. There was a series of caves for meditation, if I remember correctly. I had the impression he was dead; but, it appears he is well. A Google search provided: http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/7/ http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/AjahnJumnien.html On ajahn Plien, I think I met him 2006 or 2007; but, not at his monastery. It was with several other bhikkhus at a well-known mountain-cave monastery in Northern Thailand. A Google search provided: http://www.panyapatipo.com/indexeng.html http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/214/ http://audio.buddhistdoor.com/eng/play/1264 http://www.bswa.org/modules/xcgal/thumbnails.php?album=14 http://thaiforesttradition.blogspot.com/2009/11/phra-ajahn-plien-panyapatipo-ano\ ther.html http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed049.htm > > Best wishes > pt > metta (maitri), Chuck #103774 From: han tun Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ahiraaja Sutta hantun1 Dear Chew, Chew: For the translation of: na hi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ahinaa da.t.tho kaala.n kareyya. T: he would not have died after having been bitten by a snake. P: Had he done so, that monk would not have died of snake-bite. Do they have any difference in meaning? For P's meaning, can it means the monk would not be bitten by a snake? -------------------- Han: IMHO, suffusing with thoughts of loving-kindness (metta) can have both the effects, namely,*treatment* as well as *prevention*. (1) The following translations indicate the situation when the person has already been bitten by the snake (ahinaa da.t.tho kaala.m). Therefore, it is the *treatment* effect. Piyadassi Thera: That monk has not suffused with thoughts of loving-kindness (metta) the four royal tribes of snakes. Had he done so, that monk would not have died of snake-bite. Thanissaro Bhikkhu: For if he had suffused the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will, he would not have died after having been bitten by a snake. -------------------- (2) The following translations (towards the end of the sutta) indicate the situation when the person is protected from being bitten by the snake. Therefore, it is the *preventive* effect. kataa me rakkhaa kataa me prittaa pa.tikkamantu bhuutaani. Piyadassi Thera: I have guarded myself, I have made my protection. Depart from me, ye beings. Thanissaro Bhikkhu: I have made this safeguard, I have made this protection. May the beings depart. Kind regards, Han #103775 From: Win Win yee Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ahiraaja Sutta yee.win2 Dear Chew, Mingalaba! P: Had he done so, that monk would not have died of snake-bite. is more appropriate. For P's meaning, can it means the monk would not be bitten by a snake? Yes, because of developing of Metta Bhavana. For your reference, please find Myanmar Translation. But I will confirm with our Pali teacher on this Saturday. with metta, #103776 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:44 am Subject: Sukha vs. Somanassa was Aryans do not feel pleasant mental feelings? dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Chuck, all, ... snip > > > 5. sukha? > > 6. dukkha? > > Sukha = happiness or "ease" > Dukha = unhappiness or pain or hardship or not-ease. > > > Generally speaking as I understand it, the mental sukha/dukkha is generally called somanassa/domanassa. However it is strange that in that sutta pali words sukkha dukkha were used. Even if they mean somanassa/domanassa it does raises a question > C: Question: Sukha and Somanassa are not synonymous? Discussion from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary: Sukha: pleasant, happy; happiness, pleasure, joy, bliss. It is one of the three feelings (s. vedana) and may be either bodily or mental... Somanassa: lit. 'glad-mind-ness' (su+manas+ya) gladness, joy, identical with 'mentally agreeable feeling' (cetasika sukha vedana),... It appears sukha can be bodily or mental where as somanassa is mental only. Is this correct? Warm thanks for your help. metta (maitri), Chuck > ... snip #103779 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:23 am Subject: A mistake nilovg Dear friends, my post on Vinaya was meant for palistudy, sorry. Nina. #103780 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:54 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, Another way of kusala kamma included in good moral conduct is helping other people through speech and deeds. In order to know whether there is this way of wholesomeness or not we have to investigate the cittas which motivate helping. One may help someone with selfish motives or with reluctance, and that is not kusala kamma. Helping with unselfish kindness is good moral conduct. At such a moment there is detachment. We are inclined to be lazy and to be attached to our own comfort, but in order to help someone we have to renounce our own comfort and make an effort for kusala. When kusala citta arises we are able to think of someone else’s welfare. Also listening to other people when they talk about their problems and giving them our attention is a way of helping them. In the Buddhist scriptures, including the Jåtakas (the Buddha’s Birth Stories), there are many practical guidelines for a life of goodwill and benevolence in one’s social relations. There are guidelines for kings to reign with justice and compassion, and these can be applied by all in government service. We read in the “Kútadanta Sutta” (Dialogues of the Buddha I, sutta 5) that the Buddha told the Brahman Kútadanta about a King who wanted to offer a great sacrifice and asked his chaplain advice. The chaplain advised the King about a sacrifice for the sake of which no living being would be injured. He said to the King that, instead of punishing the bandits who were marauding the country, the King could improve the economic situation, a way which would be more effective in suppressing crime. The King should give grain to farmers, capital to traders, wages and food to those in government service. Then tensions would be solved and there would be an end to disorder. The King followed the chaplain’s advice and made abundant gifts. The Buddha explained to Kútadanta that a sacrifice is not only the giving of material things, but that it can also be dedication to spiritual matters, namely having confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the “Sangha”, the community of enlightened disciples, as well as mental development, including the development of the wisdom leading to perfection. ******* Nina. #103781 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aryans do not feel pleasant mental feelings? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 23-dec-2009, om 2:50 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > So you are saying that Aryan feels vipaka but doesn't produce kamma > or (akusala/kusala citta) that is felt at that moment as sukha/dukkha? ------- N: I am speaking of arahats. Ariyans who are not arahats still commit kamma. Arahats can feel bodily pain, but have no domanassa. This can also be said of anaagaamis, they have eradicated dosa-muulacitta. Nina. #103782 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ptsm: nanas - of Buddha sarahprocter... Dear pt, (Han, Alex, Chew & all). [see #102987] --- On Wed, 23/12/09, ptaus1 wrote: > S: Yes, there is a wealth of very extensive detail in both these texts. > ... perhaps more in due course... This is just a very rough summary. Thanks for this. I hope I'll get my hands on these texts some time soon as well. ... S: What I realised after extracting the 10 powers from all the detail given in the Vibh and its commentary was that these are actually exactly the same 10 powers as given in MN 12 which you gave a link for, but which I hadn't checked. So 100% correlation between the Abh, Abh comy and Sutta, some will be glad to hear! .. >I'm particularly interested in how the 4 fearlessnesses and 3 frames of reference fit into Ptsm model, if at all. ... S: I think these relate to the Buddha's self-awakening to the Truths and ability to train others in the 8 liberations, to set the wheel turning. So perhaps these would fall under sabbannutanana (omniscient knowledge) and anavarananana (unobstructed knowledge) and perhaps others too. Perhaps others may have further ideas - it's not an area I've considered or studied before. Metta Sarah ======== #103783 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:48 am Subject: Re: The Duration of a Citta sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friends all, > > Questions: > > 1. Do you agree the life-span of a "citta" is always a mind-moment (cittakkhana)? > > 2. If you do/do not; please provide a relevant Tipitaka reference. .... S: Yes #90556 Sarah: >On this point, B.Bodhi et al give this Guide note in C.M.A. (translation of Abhidhammattha Sangaha): Ch VI, guide to #6 "The life-span of a citta is termed, in the Abhidhamma, a mind-moment (cittakkha.na). This is a temporal unit of such brief duration that, according to the commentators, in the time it takes for lightning to flash or the eyes to blink, billions of mind-moments can elapse. Nevertheless, though seemingly infinitesimal, each mind-moment in turn consists of three sub-moments - arising (uppaada), presence (.thiti), and dissolution (bhanga). Within the breadth of a mind-moment, a citta arises, performs its momentary function, and then dissolves, conditioning the next citta in immediate succession. Thus, through the sequence of mind-moments, the flow of consciousness continues uninterrupted like the waters in a stream. "....The Vibhaavinii [S: commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha] points out that the sub-moment of presence is a stage in the occurrence of a dhamma separate from the stages of arising and dissolution, during which the dhamma 'stands facing its own dissolution' (bhangaabhimukhaavathaa)......Many commentators take the presence moment to be implied by the Buddha's statement: 'There are three conditioned characteristics of the conditioned: arising, passing away, and the alteration of that which stands' (A.3:47/i,152). Here the presence moment is identified with 'the alteration of that which stands' (.thitassa a~n~nathatta)." #92878 Scott: >In the AN sutta: "Its origination is discerned (uppaado pa~n~naayati), its vanishing is discerned (vayo pa~n~naayati), its change while persisting is discerned (.thitassa a~n~nathatta.m pa~n~naayati)..." Scott: And from the SN sutta: "...an arising is discerned (uppaado pa~n~naayati), a vanishing is discerned (vayo pa~n~naayati), an alteration of that which stands is discerned (.thitassa a~n~nathatta.m)." ***** [S: see also "Moments" and "Cittas" in "Useful Posts"] Life exists just in the one brief citta arising and falling away at this moment. Metta Sarah ======= #103784 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ahiraaja Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Win Win, I'm glad to see you posting. As I recall, it was you who kindly forwarded the PTS information. Another time, you can send it directly to DSG. --- On Wed, 23/12/09, Win Win yee wrote: >For your reference, please find Myanmar Translation. ... S: I didn't see this and I suspect you enclosed an attachment which is not accepted by yahoo on DSG. A few days ago, you sent another attachment, so the message would have been blank. So perhaps you can paste the details into your messages when it's not too long. (We had to shorten the PTS details). If you have time, please introduce yourself a little. Where do you live? Look forward to having more discussion with you. Metta Sarah p.s If you have any difficulty with any of the technical workings, please contact pt (or me, probably to forward to pt!) off-list for further help. ======= #103785 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Merit! sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, --- On Sat, 19/12/09, charlest wrote: >C: This teaching I do not understand. It seems to me it should not matter whether the recipient is pure. What should be most important are my intentions as described above. Oh well, perhaps tomorrow a light will come on??? ... S: I agree that it's rather counter-intuitive. Yes, the intentions are the most important thing and yet we know from all the detail we read in the texts about the results of great deeds, that an offering to the Buddha is not the same as an offering to an ignorant worldling. See the following: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69405 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69410 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69833 From the last message, where I quote from the Velama Sutta where it says (PTS transl.): "For, though brahman Velama gave that very rich gift, greater would have been the fruit thereof, had he fed one person of right view (di.t.thisampanna"m. Comy.: 'dassanasampanna"m sotaapanna"m) Lily de Silva's summary continues: "It is more meritorious to feed one once-returner than a hundred stream enterers. Next in order come non-returners, arahants, Paccekabuddhas and Sammasambuddhas. Feeding the Buddha and the Sangha is more meritorious than feeding the Buddha alone. It is even more meritorious to construct a monastery for the general use of the Sangha of the four quarters of all times. Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha is better still. Abiding by the Five Precepts is even more valuable. But better still is the cultivation of metta, loving-kindness, and best of all, the insight into impermanence, which leads to Nibbana." *** S: Hope this helps. Metta Sarah p.s Thanks for quoting from the sutta about the 4 ways of answering questions! ======== #103786 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks sarahprocter... Dear Charles, Thank you for telling us about your Ajahn, Phra maha Prasert Pasittho. He sounds as though he's very active. Do you have a pic of yourself to put in the "Member Album" on DSG homepage and perhaps one with your Ajahn in the "Significant Others" Album and perhaps one with your wife there too? Just if you feel inclined to share... If any other old or new members have not added a pic, or would like to add a new one, it's always nice to see who we're writing to and can help avoid confusions, such as between the Kens or between Sujin & Sukin! Metta Sarah --- On Sat, 19/12/09, charlest wrote: >>.... Btw, I'm sure you've told me before, but would you mind saying again who your ajahn is and telling us a little about him. > C: Phra Maha Prasert Pasittho, Thero is in his seventies. During the Viet Nam War, he worked for the US military in Thailand. That is when he learned to read and write English. He has worked in other countries. He was married. His Upajjhaya is His Holiness, The Supreme Patriarch of the Thai Sangha. Today, he spends most of his day training men to be temporary monks and continues the training after they ordain. The training is both informal and formal classes In addition he performs the various rites and rituals; such as, business blessings, house blessings, wedding blessing, et cetera. His kuti is three or four to the left of His Holiness' kuti. #103787 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Vince, You raise interesting points, such as the following one in your discussion with Nina (#103637): --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > I'm not sure if I'm understand you. I agree the experience of > emptiness is anatteness. However, anatteness exists without being a > discriminative experience of nama, rupa and citta but as an experience > of anatta in the world an oneself. For this reason it is called > "Suchness" in the Suttas. ... On "suchness" or "thusness" (tathaa), please let me know if the following extract from an earlier message I wrote is relevant or helpful: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/81154 >R: Kathavatthu 19.5 > > Of 'Thusness' > > Controverted Point - That the fundamental characteristic of all > things (sabba-dhamma) are unconditioned. > > From the Commentary - Some, like the Uttarapathakas, hold that there > is an immutable something called thusness (or suchness) in the very > nature of all things, material or otherwise [taken as a whole]. And > because this 'thusness' is not included in the [particular] > conditioned matter, etc., itself, therefore it is unconditiones. <...> > I was told the Uttarapathakas introduce the concept of > unconditioned, immutable 'thusness' (tathata). And the passage > refutes such view. > > So 'thusness' (tathata), according to Theravidins is conditioned? .... Sarah: There is a lot of detail given on the meaning of 'Tathaagata' in the translation of the commentary to the Cariya Pitaka which B.Bodhi adds at the end of 'The All-Embracing Net of Views' (BPS). From this detail we can learn moe about the qualities of the Buddha and the nature of realities (tathadhamme). One of the reasons for being called Tathaagata is: "because he has come to the real characteristic (of dhammas)" [tathalakkha.na"m]. This refers to the knowledge of all realities, all dhammas, i.e the 5 khandhas and nibbana. Another reason given is "because he has awakened to real dhammas in accordance with actuality"[tathadhamme yaathaavato abhisambuddho]. He has realised the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. It also says it is "because he is a seer of the real" [tathadassitaaya]. This is pointing to the scope and range of his knowledge of realities. He is also said to be "the speaker of the real" [tathavaaditaaya]. This of course refers to the truth of all he teaches. Much more detail and further explanations are given, but in each case 'tatha' refers to realities or 'the real'. It's made very clear that the real characteristics of dhammas which he has discovered refers to the elements, i.e namas and rupas, not to concepts of any kind. "All these characteristics (S: of the elements, khandhas, factulties, lokuttara dhammas, D.O. etc) are real, not unreal. Through the movement of his faculty of knowledge he has come to the real characteristics (of all dhammas)." Here's another quote I like: "The analytical derivation of the word 'Tathaagata' should be understood thus: he goes to (gacchati) - i.e., he sees and knows - these dhammas beginning with the visible form object, in the very way (tathaa) they exist win their specific nature and mode." The word 'Tathaagata' is also said to contain "the entire practice of the Dhamma as well as all the qualities of a Buddha." If we understand the realities being pointed to, starting with visible object, the entire practice will be apparent. There is no other reality or 'thusness' (as the Uttarapathakas and many others today held/hold)of some underlying 'wholeness' of khandhas together. There are just distinct conditioned elements or khandhas arising and falling away and the unconditioned element, nibbana. .... >The word "Tathagata" designates all the qualities of the Buddha. > Then how do you explained Tathagata? Isn't Nibbana, therefore > Tathagata, unconditioned? ... S: See above for Tathagata. No, nibbana is not 'Tathagata'. Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma which the Tathagata realized. Here's another quote from the same source above: "Furthermore, he is the Tathaagata because he has 'gone through reality' (tathaaya gata) and because he has 'really gone' (tatha"m gata). Here 'gone' (gata) has the meanings of undergone (avagata), gone beyond (atta), attained (patta), and practised (pa.tipanna). Thus he is the Tathaagata because he has gone through - i.e. undergone - reality by fully understanding the entire world [i.e Noble Truth of suffering] through the scrutinization (of its essential characteristics, as impermanent, suffering, and not-self). He is the Tathaagata because he has gone through - i.e. gone beyond - reality by fully understanding the world through the abandonment of its origin.......realizing the cessation of the world.....practised - the way leading to the cessation of the world...." <...> ****** Metta Sarah ====== #103788 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:16 am Subject: Re: Re[12]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas upasaka_howard Hi! :-) In a message dated 12/22/2009 7:53:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cerovzt@... writes: Dear Howard you wrote: > Just to be clear, the perspective shared by Nina and Ken is different > from mine. and is there some thread of such discussion? ------------------------------------------------- You'll need to check the web site. The discussions have been going on for years on various threads. ------------------------------------------------- thanks! =============================== With metta, Howard P. S. Because you don't give your name at the end of your posts, I don't know how to address you. (Sorry) What is your name, please? Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103789 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] pdf nilovg Dear pt, I downloaded AdbeRdr920_nl_NL_ppc .pkg.zip But they say: not possible on this computer. Now I better give it up. My computer is too old or so. I had to choose between different P.C.s and was at a loss, all these numbers were too high. Thanks for all the trouble, but I prefer not to struggle any longer. Nina. Op 23-dec-2009, om 1:33 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Here it is for Adobe reader 7.1.0 - it should work on your imac: > http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=3953 #103790 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:25 am Subject: Re: Re[12]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, Vince - In a message dated 12/23/2009 8:16:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: P. S. Because you don't give your name at the end of your posts, I don't know how to address you. (Sorry) What is your name, please? =============================== Never mind! :-) I THOUGHT it was "Vince" but wasn't sure. now i am. (It IS a good practice, though, to sign off using your name.) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103791 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:31 pm Subject: Re: Re[12]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas nilovg Hi Howard and Vince, Op 23-dec-2009, om 14:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Just to be clear, the perspective shared by Nina and Ken is different > > from mine. > > and is there some thread of such discussion? > ------------------------------------------------- > You'll need to check the web site. The discussions have been going on > for years on various threads. ------- N: Wow, and how :-)) I think useful discussions, it does not matter if one disagrees. It is an opportunity to check what one has understood oneself. But Vince, let us not discuss persons, but rather consider the Dhamma itself, by verifying it in one's life. After all, Howard, Ken and Nina do not exist in the ultimate sense. Only naama and ruupa. Nina. #103792 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Charles, > > Thank you for telling us about your Ajahn, Phra maha Prasert Pasittho. He sounds as though he's very active. > > Do you have a pic of yourself to put in the "Member Album" on DSG homepage and perhaps one with your Ajahn in the "Significant Others" Album and perhaps one with your wife there too? Just if you feel inclined to share... > > If any other old or new members have not added a pic, or would like to add a new one, it's always nice to see who we're writing to and can help avoid confusions, such as between the Kens or between Sujin & Sukin! > > Metta > > Sarah > > > > --- On Sat, 19/12/09, charlest wrote: > >>.... Btw, I'm sure you've told me before, but would you mind saying again who your ajahn is and telling us a little about him. > > > > C: Phra Maha Prasert Pasittho, Thero is in his seventies. During the Viet Nam War, he worked for the US military in Thailand. That is when he learned to read and write English. > > He has worked in other countries. He was married. > > His Upajjhaya is His Holiness, The Supreme Patriarch of the Thai Sangha. > > Today, he spends most of his day training men to be temporary monks and continues the training after they ordain. The training is both informal and formal classes > > In addition he performs the various rites and rituals; such as, business blessings, house blessings, wedding blessing, et cetera. > > His kuti is three or four to the left of His Holiness' kuti. > ... C: Yes, he is... After the x-rays at the Bangkok International Hospital (Krung Thep) last Sunday my friend drove me to Wat Bowon. There was no place to park as there was an ordination that Sunday. So, we left. Monday, I begged off as I had jaw gum and jaw bone surgery. Hence as yet, I have not visited my ajahn!!! I am still recovering... I return to the hospital next Monday, the 28th, I believe... BTW, did you read about my first ajahn at Wat Thai Washington DC? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103793 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives, 316, 11, 12, and commentary. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: "You give us a welcome reminder added to the Sangiiti sutta. Someone may mistakenly think that there is his siila, that there is a person who possesses it or can lose it. But as you say, it is the presence or absence of certain dhammas, they arise and fall away with the citta." Scott: This is made very clear in the texts. Take, for instance, Visuddhimagga I, 17: "What is virtue? It is *the states* beginning with volition present in one who abstains from killing living things, etc., or in one who fulfils the practice of the duties. For this is said in the Pa.tisabhidaa: 'What is virtue? There is virtue as volition, virtue as consciousness-concomitant (cetisika), virtue as restraint, virtue as non-transgression,' (Ps. i, 44). "Herein, virtue as volition is the volition present in one who abstains from killing living beings, etc., or in one who fulfils the practise of the duties. Virtue as consciousness-concomitant is the abstinence in one who abstains from killing living things, and so on. Furthermore, virtue as volition is the seven volitions [that accompany the first seven] of the [ten] courses of action (kamma) in one who abandons the killing of living things, and so on. Virtue as consciousness-concomitant is the [three remaining states] consisting of non-covetousness, non-ill-will, and right view..." Scott: I think that the distinction is made evident, in the above, between 'states' - which refer to dhammaa - and the conventional designation of 'one who abstains' or 'one who fulfils.' These latter designations are not to be taken to mean that there is talk of a literal person who is performing this or that. By the function of the states (dhammaa) alone does virtue occur. Notice that 'right view' is one of the 'three remaining states.' It seems very difficult to keep from thinking of 'my virtue' or 'my states' or 'my volition' or whatever. It seems very difficult to keep from thinking about 'the virtuous person' without recollecting that this is actually kusala dhammaa. Again, I find this to be a very much misunderstood aspect of the Dhamma. Everyone wants to be so good, so fast, and to put so much hard work into it. Sincerely, Scott. #103794 From: A T Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:55 pm Subject: sukha/dukkha somanassa/domanassa. Feelings and Arhat truth_aerator Dear Chuck, all, Please check SN 48.38 sutta. "And what is the pleasure-faculty (Sukhavedaniyaṃ)? Any physical pleasure, physical comfort born of body-contact to be experienced as pleasure & comfort. That is called the pleasure-faculty. "And what is the pain-faculty (dukkhindriyaṃ)? Any physical pain, physical discomfort born of body-contact to be experienced as pain & discomfort. That is called the pain-faculty. "And what is the happiness-faculty (somanassindriyaṃ)? Any mental pleasure, mental comfort born of intellect-contact to be experienced as pleasure & comfort. That is called the happiness-faculty. "And what is the distress-faculty (domanassindriyaṃ)? Any mental pain, mental discomfort born of intellect-contact to be experienced as pain & discomfort. That is called the distress-faculty. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.038.than.html ===== Sukha & Dukkha there is defined as physical feeling only. Somanassa & Domanassa is mental feeling only. PTS SN 5.210 Tatiyavibhaá¹…gasuttaṃ SN 36.6 denies Aryan disciple to have sukha/dukkha. "Na vedanaṃ vedayati sapañño, Sukhampi dukkhampi bahussutopi;" PTS SN 4.209 With metta, Alex #103795 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives, 316, 11, 12, and commentary. nilovg Dear Scott, Op 23-dec-2009, om 16:47 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > It seems very difficult to keep from thinking of 'my virtue' or 'my > states' or 'my volition' or whatever. It seems very difficult to > keep from thinking about 'the virtuous person' without recollecting > that this is actually kusala dhammaa. Again, I find this to be a > very much misunderstood aspect of the Dhamma. Everyone wants to be > so good, so fast, and to put so much hard work into it. ------- N: It is good you emphasize that siila is just dhammaa. Now I understand even better why some people repeat that 'you' have to develop siila first, then samatha, then vipassanaa. As if a self can regulate this instead of knowing that there are only dhammas arising because of their own conditions. ------- Another subject now I have your eye. A friend asked:'Would you be kind enough to recommend me some texts about buddhism and mental illness? I work with kids with autism and mental retardation"' I wonder whether you or others can help. I can just think of Nakulapitar: being sick in body, not in mind. Namely, by not regarding ruupakkhandha as self etc. Thanks, NIna. #103796 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives, 316, 11, 12, and commentary. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: "Another subject now I have your eye. A friend asked:'Would you be kind enough to recommend me some texts about buddhism and mental illness? I work with kids with autism and mental retardation"' I wonder whether you or others can help. I can just think of Nakulapitar: being sick in body, not in mind. Namely, by not regarding ruupakkhandha as self etc." Scott: Consider 'Thoughts Without A Thinker' by Mark Epstein. Despite the promising title, he really doesn't seem to consider anatta as deeply as all that. He does come more-or-less from a Theravada perspective, using familiar texts (with his own take on them, of course). He discusses psychoanalytic psychotherapy from a 'buddhist' perspective. Sincerely, Scott. #103797 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:46 am Subject: Re: sukha/dukkha somanassa/domanassa. Feelings and Arhat dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > > Dear Chuck, all, > > > Please check SN 48.38 sutta. > "And what is the pleasure-faculty (Sukhavedaniyaṃ)? Any physical pleasure, physical comfort born of body-contact to be experienced as pleasure & comfort. That is called the pleasure-faculty. > > "And what is the pain-faculty (dukkhindriyaṃ)? Any physical pain, physical discomfort born of body-contact to be experienced as pain & discomfort. That is called the pain-faculty. > > "And what is the happiness-faculty (somanassindriyaṃ)? Any mental pleasure, mental comfort born of intellect-contact to be experienced as pleasure & comfort. That is called the happiness-faculty. > > "And what is the distress-faculty (domanassindriyaṃ)? Any mental pain, mental discomfort born of intellect-contact to be experienced as pain & discomfort. That is called the distress-faculty. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.038.than.html > ===== > > Sukha & Dukkha there is defined as physical feeling only. > Somanassa & Domanassa is mental feeling only. PTS SN 5.210 Tatiyavibhaá¹…gasuttaṃ > > SN 36.6 denies Aryan disciple to have sukha/dukkha. > > "Na vedanaṃ vedayati sapañño, Sukhampi dukkhampi bahussutopi;" > PTS SN 4.209 > C: Well, I do not know how to respond. "Faculties" are not "dukkha" nor "sukha." There may be aspects of "dukkha" and "sukha" in your words; but, none of the words are synonyms for "dukkha" nor "sukha". However, if you believe they are, so be it. FWIW, I checked your cited sutta. I failed to see the word, "aryan" in the sutta. BTW, as yet you have not defined, "aryan." Let us end this discussion here. More knowledgeable persons may be able to help you in your quest. > > > With metta, > > > Alex > > > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103798 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ahiraaja Sutta chewsadhu Dear Han, Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Chew, > > Chew: > For the translation of: > na hi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ahinaa da.t.tho kaala.n kareyya. > T: he would not have died after having been bitten by a snake. > P: Had he done so, that monk would not have died of snake-bite. > Do they have any difference in meaning? > For P's meaning, can it means the monk would not be bitten by a snake? > > -------------------- > > Han: > IMHO, suffusing with thoughts of loving-kindness (metta) can have both the effects, namely,*treatment* as well as *prevention*. > > (1) The following translations indicate the situation when the person has already been bitten by the snake (ahinaa da.t.tho kaala.m). Therefore, it is the *treatment* effect. > > Piyadassi Thera: That monk has not suffused with thoughts of loving-kindness (metta) the four royal tribes of snakes. Had he done so, that monk would not have died of snake-bite. > Thanissaro Bhikkhu: For if he had suffused the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will, he would not have died after having been bitten by a snake. > > -------------------- > > (2) The following translations (towards the end of the sutta) indicate the situation when the person is protected from being bitten by the snake. Therefore, it is the *preventive* effect. > > kataa me rakkhaa kataa me prittaa pa.tikkamantu bhuutaani. > > Piyadassi Thera: I have guarded myself, I have made my protection. Depart from me, ye beings. > Thanissaro Bhikkhu: I have made this safeguard, I have made this protection. May the beings depart. > > Kind regards, > Han > #103799 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ahiraaja Sutta chewsadhu Dear Win, Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Win Win yee wrote: > > Dear Chew, > > Mingalaba! > P: Had he done so, that monk would not have died of snake-bite. is more > appropriate. > > For P's meaning, can it means the monk would not be bitten by a snake? Yes, > because of developing of Metta Bhavana. > > For your reference, please find Myanmar Translation. > But I will confirm with our Pali teacher on this Saturday. > > with metta, > > > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Sadhu Chew wrote: > > > > > > > Dear friends in the Dhamma, > > > > [Paa.li text : A.nguttaranikaayo Ahiraajasutta.m] > > > > ''Na hi nuuna [na ha nuuna (sii. syaa. ka.m. pii.)] so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu > > cattaari ahiraajakulaani mettena cittena phari. > > > > Sace hi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cattaari ahiraajakulaani mettena cittena > > phareyya, na hi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ahinaa da.t.tho kaala.nkareyya. > > > > [translated from the Paa.li by Thanissaro Bhikkhu] > > > > "Then it's certain, monks, that that monk didn't suffuse the four royal > > snake lineages with a mind of good will. For if he had suffused the four > > royal snake lineages with a mind of good will, he would not have died after > > having been bitten by a snake. > <...> >