#103800 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Sarah, et al > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > > Dear Charles, > > > ... snip > > > > Do you have a pic of yourself to put in the "Member Album" on DSG homepage and perhaps one with your Ajahn in the "Significant Others" Album and perhaps one with your wife there too? Just if you feel inclined to share... > > > > If any other old or new members have not added a pic, or would like to add a new one, it's always nice to see who we're writing to and can help avoid confusions, such as between the Kens or between Sujin & Sukin! C: I think the photos are in Texas. I may have some recent images on my external back up hard drive. Will check. Warm thanks for asking. metta (maitri), Chuck #103801 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:05 am Subject: Re: sukha/dukkha somanassa/domanassa. Feelings and Arhat truth_aerator Hello Chuck, all > "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Alex, et al > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > > > > Dear Chuck, all, > > > > > > Please check SN 48.38 sutta. > > "And what is the pleasure-faculty (Sukhavedaniyaṃ)? Any physical pleasure, physical comfort born of body-contact to be experienced as pleasure & comfort. That is called the pleasure-faculty. > > > > "And what is the pain-faculty (dukkhindriyaṃ)? Any physical pain, physical discomfort born of body-contact to be experienced as pain & discomfort. That is called the pain-faculty. > > > > "And what is the happiness-faculty (somanassindriyaṃ)? Any >mental pleasure, mental comfort born of intellect-contact to be >experienced as pleasure & comfort. That is called the happiness- > faculty. > > > > "And what is the distress-faculty (domanassindriyaṃ)? Any mental >pain, mental discomfort born of intellect-contact to be experienced >as pain & discomfort. That is called the distress-faculty. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.038.than.html > > ===== > > > > Sukha & Dukkha there is defined as physical feeling only. > > Somanassa & Domanassa is mental feeling only. PTS SN 5.210 >Tatiyavibhaṅgasuttaṃ > > > > SN 36.6 denies Aryan disciple to have sukha/dukkha. > > > > "Na vedanaṃ vedayati sapañño, Sukhampi dukkhampi bahussutopi;" > > PTS SN 4.209 > > > > > > > C: Well, I do not know how to respond. > > "Faculties" are not "dukkha" nor "sukha." There may be aspects of >"dukkha" and "sukha" in your words; but, none of the words are >synonyms for "dukkha" nor "sukha". > "With regard to this, the pleasure-faculty & happiness-faculty are to be seen as a feeling of pleasure. The pain-faculty & distress-faculty are to be seen as a feeling of pain. The equanimity-faculty is to be seen as a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. Thus, by this exposition, the five are three; and the three, five." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.038.than.html The word faculty may be to blame. > However, if you believe they are, so be it. > > FWIW, I checked your cited sutta. I failed to see the word, >"aryan" in the sutta. BTW, as yet you have not defined, "aryan." > The aryan disciple is called "A well-instructed disciple of the noble ones" in SN 36.6 Ven. TB translation. With metta, Alex #103802 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al > ... snip > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > > > > Dear Charles, > > > > > ... snip > > > > > > Do you have a pic of yourself to put in the "Member Album" on DSG homepage and perhaps one with your Ajahn in the "Significant Others" Album and perhaps one with your wife there too? Just if you feel inclined to share... > > > > > > If any other old or new members have not added a pic, or would like to add a new one, it's always nice to see who we're writing to and can help avoid confusions, such as between the Kens or between Sujin & Sukin! > > C: I think the photos are in Texas. I may have some recent images on my external back up hard drive. Will check. > > Warm thanks for asking. > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > C: Until I locate relevant images, may I suggest a visit to my blog: 1. http://kasteelzeist.multiply.com/photos/album/4/His_Holiness_The_Supreme_Patriar\ ch_of_Thailand 2. http://kasteelzeist.multiply.com/photos/album/81/My_Last_Meal peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103803 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:28 am Subject: Re: sukha/dukkha somanassa/domanassa. Feelings and Arhat dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Chuck, all > > ... snip > > > > FWIW, I checked your cited sutta. I failed to see the word, >"aryan" in the sutta. BTW, as yet you have not defined, "aryan." > > > The aryan disciple is called "A well-instructed disciple of the noble ones" in SN 36.6 Ven. TB translation. C: So??? You do not provide a definition!!! Now, what is "A well-instructed disciple of the noble ones" I feel like we are on a "merry-go-round." Hence, no more; I am getting off. ... C: If your "aryan" is the same as "ariya" then, I suggest you be very careful in the use of your word as it may include the arahant and the anagami. In some instances, both are special cases!!! "...ariya: 'Noble Ones', ...Summed up there are four noble individuals (ariya-puggala): the stream-winner (sotapanna), the once-returner (sakadagami), the non-returner (anagami), the holy one (arahant). My reference is the "Buddhist Disctionary" by Nyanatiloka. Please advise if this reference is not accepted by DSG. Sincere warm thanks. > > With metta, > > Alex > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103804 From: Vince Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:11 am Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Sarah: > On "suchness" or "thusness" (tathaa), please let me know if the > following extract from an earlier message I wrote is relevant or helpful: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/81154 yes, very convenient in the thread. Thanks for the cites. > If we understand the realities being pointed to, starting with visible > object, the entire practice will be apparent. There is no other > reality or 'thusness' (as the Uttarapathakas and many others today > held/hold)of some underlying 'wholeness' of khandhas together. There > are just distinct conditioned elements or khandhas arising and > falling away and the unconditioned element, nibbana. the Uttarapathakas view seem to be something similar to what in the Mahayana world represents the "Buddha nature" and the doctrine of the Tathagatagarbha. I have read some things around that time ago. They arise early in the Mahayana literature and also with intense discussions about immutability, suchness and emptiness. Today the influence of that view in the Mahayana is quite present. In Theravada sometimes I read things like this. What do you think? "Meeting in one thing = union in the one-natured Nibbana: [...] On account of the cause or on account of the sameness of entry into the one Nibbana, the Arousing of Mindfulness is said to be just one thing. The meeting in the one Nibbana of the various Arousings of Mindfulness is called the meeting in the one thing on account of participation in that one Nibbana or on account of their becoming all of a kind." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html On my side I don't feel able to confront views. I think the matter is to find the right way to point the thinking. "As for the miracle where a certain person gives instruction in this way: 'Direct your thought in this way, don't direct it in that. Attend to things in this way, don't attend to them in that. Let go of this, enter and remain in that': this is the miracle that, of the three, appeals to me as the highest & most sublime." **AN 3.60 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.060.than.html Vince. #103805 From: Vince Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:14 am Subject: Re[14]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Howard wrote: > P. S. Because you don't give your name at the end of your posts, I don't > know how to address you. (Sorry) What is your name, please? > P. S. Because you don't give your name at the end of your posts, I don't > know how to address you. (Sorry) What is your name, please? > =============================== > Never mind! :-) I THOUGHT it was "Vince" but wasn't sure. now i am. > (It IS a good practice, though, to sign off using your name.) ok, sorry. :) I agree in keeping protocols, we are not in Copenhagen. Vince #103806 From: Vince Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:02 am Subject: Re[14]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina: > But Vince, let us not discuss persons, but rather consider the Dhamma > itself, by verifying it in one's life. After all, Howard, Ken and > Nina do not exist in the ultimate sense. Only naama and ruupa. yes, I start to see the reality of nama and rupa, despite I need much more time. One of the things which were unconceivable to me when considering the anatta nature of phenomena, it was the knowledge of the arising and falling away of rupa. Now it starts to sound logical in my head, and from here I wonder how abhidhamma explain the Time as another object of understanding. As the Time it's an object of understanding arising according the conceptual nature of phenomena, then the deeper knowledge of the arising and falling away of phenomena should imply a different understanding of the relation between them, and therefore a resultant different Time to be known and lived. So I want to ask if the right understanding not only arises from the detachment of the conceptual realities but also from the detachment of the relations between them. Because these relations seem to be conditions for its deluded and conceptual nature. These relations are also objects of understanding, and they are grasped by the self while he is building the investigation and conclusion about the nature of some object. I cannot avoid ask again! I'm looking in "A Survey..." and I cannot find nothing about Time neither there is a word entrance for "Time" in the word's list. Maybe this matter appears involved in other terms?. best, Vince. #103807 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aryans do not feel pleasant mental feelings? dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 23-dec-2009, om 2:50 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > So you are saying that Aryan feels vipaka but doesn't produce kamma > > or (akusala/kusala citta) that is felt at that moment as sukha/dukkha? > ------- > N: I am speaking of arahats. Ariyans who are not arahats still commit > kamma. > Arahats can feel bodily pain, but have no domanassa. This can also be > said of anaagaamis, they have eradicated dosa-muulacitta. > Nina. > C: What good friend Nina wrote is as I was taught, FWIW... #103808 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:27 am Subject: Re: pdf ptaus1 Dear Nina, > N: Thanks for all the trouble, but I prefer not to struggle any longer. No worries, working with computers can be frustrating at times. Anyway, I'll explain a bit further in case you ever get the inclination to return to the issue. > N: I downloaded AdbeRdr920_nl_NL_ppc .pkg.zip > But they say: not possible on this computer. pt: Yes, .zip files are usually for PC, while .dmg files are for mac, so you probably accidentally took a wrong turn somewhere. > N: I had to choose between different P.C.s and was at a loss, all these numbers were too high. pt: Yes, I should have explained this more in depth. You've already said that your imac is 4,1 which is a machine/model number - and you found that out by clicking on the small apple in the top left corner and then "about this mac" from the apple menu - in that same window where you've seen "4,1", you should also be able to see: - what is your operative system (OS) version, like for example "Version 10.4.1" - and what is your processor name (CPU type) - is it a "PowerPC" or "Intel Core Duo" for example. If you can't see these two in the apple menu window, there should be a button which says "more info" and hopefully clicking on that will take you to System Profile, which will have all these specification listed for you. Based on these two (OS version and processor type), you'll be able to select the appropriate Adobe reader version for download. For example, if you have OS version 10.4.5 with PowerPC processor, then the appropriate version to select on Adobe website will be: Mac OS PowerPC 10.2.8 - 10.4.10 But if you have OS version 10.4.5 with Intel processor, then the appropriate version to select on Adobe website would be: Mac OS Intel 10.4.4 - 10.4.10 Unfortunately, I'm unable to simply email you the file as it's bigger than 10MB, which is the limit of my mailbox attachment, and I'm not sure that uploading it to DSG files would be okay in terms of copyright. Best wishes pt #103809 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:30 am Subject: Re: Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship ptaus1 Hi Chuck, Thanks for the stories and the links. I'm glad that you have the opportunity to meet many great Ajahns in Thailand. Best wishes pt > C: On ajahn Jumnien, I think I visited his monastery a year or two before the tsunami... #103810 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:02 am Subject: Re: Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship dhammasaro Good friend pt, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > Thanks for the stories and the links. I'm glad that you have the opportunity to meet many great Ajahns in Thailand. > > Best wishes > pt > > > C: On ajahn Jumnien, I think I visited his monastery a year or two before the tsunami... > C: Well, I did miss many... Ajahn Chah for one... Ajahn Buddhadasa for another... but, I study their Dhamma talks... I will keep my "ears open" for any discussion on Thai monks following the Mahayana Tradition on the Bodhisattva. Please keep in touch, so to write... [beeg Texican smiles] peace... metta (maitri), Chuck Post script: This is where I met Ajahn Plien: http://kasteelzeist.multiply.com/photos/album/57/Wat_Phare_Mahajedee_Rachsamjamm\ adhevesrivechai #103812 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:11 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 10. nilovg Dear friends, The Siglovda sutta (Dialogues of the Buddha III, sutta 31) contains the laymans social ethics. The Buddha explained to Sigla that there should be love and goodwill in the relations between parents and children, teachers and pupils, husband and wife, employees and servants, laypeople and those who have retired from worldly life. The Buddha warned Sigla of all the consequences of bad moral conduct and of the danger of evil friendship. A bad friend appropriates a friends possessions, pays mere lip-service and flatters. Whereas a good friend gives good counsel, sympathizes and does not forsake one in misfortune, he is even willing to sacrifice his life for his friend. A good friend is intent on ones spiritual welfare. We read: He restrains you from doing evil, he encourages you to do good, he informs you of what is unknown to you, he points out to you the path to heaven. The Buddhist principles of goodwill and tolerance can be applied in todays world in the community where one lives, on the national level and on the international level, including development cooperation. One can apply these principles more effectively if one at the same time develops understanding of the different cittas which arise, kusala cittas and akusala cittas. This understanding will prevent one from taking for kusala what is akusala. It is necessary to get to know the selfish motives with which we may act and speak, to get to know our many defilements. Otherwise our deeds and speech will not be sincere. For a layman it is difficult to observe good moral conduct in all circumstances. He may find himself in situations where it is hard to abstain from akusala kamma, such as killing. The person who has inclinations to monkhood leaves the household life in order to be able to observe good moral conduct more perfectly. There is good moral conduct of the layman and there is good moral conduct of the monk. The monks moral conduct is of a higher level. He leads a life of non-violence and contentment with little. He has renounced worldly life in order to dedicate himself completely to the study and practice of the Dhamma and to the teaching of it to layfollowers. -------- Nina. #103813 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pdf nilovg Dear pt, dowloading worked, but I could not install or copy it into my system. I have it in Dutch, that is a problem. Thank you very much, Nina. Op 24-dec-2009, om 8:27 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Mac OS Intel 10.4.4 - 10.4.10 #103814 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:45 am Subject: Re: The Duration of a Citta dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > > Good friends all, > > > > Questions: > > > > 1. Do you agree the life-span of a "citta" is always a mind-moment (cittakkhana)? > > > > 2. If you do/do not; please provide a relevant Tipitaka reference. > .... > S: Yes > > #90556 > Sarah: > >On this point, B.Bodhi et al give this Guide note in C.M.A. (translation of Abhidhammattha Sangaha): > Ch VI, guide to #6 > > "The life-span of a citta is termed, in the Abhidhamma, a mind-moment > (cittakkha.na). This is a temporal unit of such brief duration that, according to the commentators, in the time it takes for lightning to flash or the eyes to blink, billions of mind-moments can elapse. Nevertheless, though seemingly infinitesimal, each mind-moment in turn consists of three sub-moments - arising (uppaada), presence (.thiti), and dissolution (bhanga). Within the breadth of a > mind-moment, a citta arises, performs its momentary function, and then > dissolves, conditioning the next citta in immediate succession. Thus, through the sequence of mind-moments, the flow of consciousness continues uninterrupted like the waters in a stream. > > "....The Vibhaavinii [S: commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha] points out that the sub-moment of presence is a stage in the occurrence of a dhamma separate from the stages of arising and dissolution, during which the dhamma 'stands facing its own dissolution' (bhangaabhimukhaavathaa)......Many commentators take the presence moment to be implied by the Buddha's statement: > 'There are three conditioned characteristics of the conditioned: arising, passing away, and the alteration of that which stands' (A.3:47/i,152). Here the presence moment is identified with 'the alteration of that which stands' (.thitassa a~n~nathatta)." > > #92878 > Scott: > >In the AN sutta: > > "Its origination is discerned (uppaado pa~n~naayati), its vanishing is > discerned (vayo pa~n~naayati), its change while persisting is > discerned (.thitassa a~n~nathatta.m pa~n~naayati)..." > > Scott: And from the SN sutta: > > "...an arising is discerned (uppaado pa~n~naayati), a vanishing is > discerned (vayo pa~n~naayati), an alteration of that which stands is > discerned (.thitassa a~n~nathatta.m)." > ***** > > [S: see also "Moments" and "Cittas" in "Useful Posts"] > > Life exists just in the one brief citta arising and falling away at this moment. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > C: FYI: I believe I quoted, several days ago, some of what you wrote above. FWIW, I have a hard-copy of the CMA; but alas, I forgot to put it in my carry-on bag... [verily beeg Texican bummers] Just as well... I slept most of the way across the Pacific!!! peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103815 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:55 pm Subject: Re: The Life Span of a Citta jonoabb Hi Chuck (103736) > C: No kind reply to my two questions in reply to your assertion, Jon? > =============== I've been a bit behind lately (have just seen this message of yours). As it happens, I sent a reply shortly after you posted this. My apologies for the delay! > =============== > pax tecum [Latin for "Peace to you."] Jon, > =============== Thanks, Chuck. Kombali [Indonesian for "And the same to you"] Jon #103816 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. jonoabb Hi KenO (103752) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > > Yes thanks for highlighting in sakkaya ditthit. Sometimes I do get carry away. Concepts and lobha are two different aspects. What we crave after conceptualisation of the car is in the mind door but what we crave after a visible rupa is in the sense door :-) > =============== We may have very strong lobha for the car, but no wrong view (even though there is also no right view). Absence of developed right view does not mean that there is wrong view when thinking about objects. Generally speaking, objects conceptualised about in a day (including people) are not conceptualised with wrong view, as I understand wrong view. Jon PS I thought you made many good points on this general area in your message to Vince. #103817 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] pdf jonoabb Hi pt (and Nina) In addition to pdf docs that are images and pdf docs that are searchable text, there are also pdf docs that are text but are not searchable or copyable. This is because the creator of the doc has chosen not to enable the search/copy function. For these docs there are programs (some free) that claim to be able to convert the pdf doc so that the text is searchable/copyable. If you're interested, try Googling 'pdf to word' or 'pdf to text'. Jon (103738) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > > N: The same Ven. sent me off list a pdf, same formatting etc. and this > > was perfect. > > pt: Okay, so you have no more problems with it anymore, right? > > > N: Perhaps the first one was a picture, as you said. > > pt: It wasn't a picture - I think I might have figured it out now. I'll explain a bit what was probably the problem in case you encounter a similar problem in the future. > > 1. You can tell that it's not a picture because the text tool is working - i.e. you can select a sentence, a word, but when you try to copy and paste into a different program, it doesn't work. If it was a picture, you wouldn't be able to select individual words/sentences, but only square selections with select tool (which looks like a square). > #103818 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:39 pm Subject: Re: Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship ptaus1 Hi Chuck, > I will keep my "ears open" for any discussion on Thai monks following the Mahayana Tradition on the Bodhisattva. Thanks. And thanks for the nice photos. Best wishes pt > Post script: This is where I met Ajahn Plien: > > http://kasteelzeist.multiply.com/photos/album/57/Wat_Phare_Mahajedee_Rachsamjamm\ adhevesrivechai > #103819 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: pdf ptaus1 Dear Nina, > dowloading worked, but I could not install or copy it into my system. > I have it in Dutch, that is a problem. This is the Dutch page for the Reader: http://get.adobe.com/nl/reader/ The downloading procedure should be the same. The file size for the Dutch version seems to be bigger than the one in English, so I'm hoping this is a dedicated Dutch version, not just a copy of the English one. Best wishes pt #103820 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] pdf ptaus1 Hi Jon, Thanks. I was exploring that possibility, but Nina's problem seems very specific - the file works fine in other pdf reader applications, as well as newer versions of her reader application, but not in her (or mine) older reader versions. So, it seems it's just about downward compatibility. Actually, I ran Nina's file through one of those pdf to text free applications, and it was about 90% accurate (in addition to struggling with Pali a lot), but that's still much better than 60-70% accuracy of free OCR. Best wishes pt > In addition to pdf docs that are images and pdf docs that are searchable text, there are also pdf docs that are text but are not searchable or copyable. This is because the creator of the doc has chosen not to enable the search/copy function. > > For these docs there are programs (some free) that claim to be able to convert the pdf doc so that the text is searchable/copyable. If you're interested, try Googling 'pdf to word' or 'pdf to text'. #103821 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:47 am Subject: Re: Re[14]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, Vince - In a message dated 12/24/2009 1:05:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, cerovzt@... writes: I agree in keeping protocols, we are not in Copenhagen. ;-)) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103822 From: Vince Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:59 pm Subject: Re[15]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... in addition of what I said previously about the role of Time in Abhidhamma, I'm reading this interesting paper about the notion of the Time in Buddha time. However I think it doesn't enter in deep in the matter: "The Buddhist conception of time and temporality", David J. Kalupahana http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/kalupa.htm (extract): "It was mentioned that during the pre-Buddhist period there was a theory which upheld that "everything exists." The foundation of this theory seems to be the view that an event can never cease to be an event.(28) Because of the popularity this theory enjoyed during this period, the Buddha seems to have p.184 taken much trouble to refute it. In addition to the argument from experience that be adduced to refute this theory, the Buddha also pointed out that it was the result of a linguistic fallacy.(29) His criticism runs thus: Monks, there are these three linguistic conventions or usages of words or terms which are distinct, have been distinct in the past, are distinct at present and will be distinct in the future and which are not ignored by the recluses and brahmans who are wise. Which three? Whatever form (ruupa) there has been, which has ceased to be, which is past and has changed is called, reckoned or termed "has been" (ahosi); it is not reckoned as "it exists" (atthi) nor as "it will be" (bhavissati). (The same is said about the other four aggregates--sensation, perception, dispositions and consciousness.)... Whatever form is not arisen, not come to be, is called, reckoned or termed is "it will be" (bhavissati) and is not reckoned as "it exists" or as "it has been." ...Whatever form has become and has manifested itself is called, reckoned or termed as "it exists" (atthi) and is not reckoned as "it has been" or as "it will be."(30) #103823 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pdf nilovg Dear pt, thank you for all your help. I am taking a Christmas break from technical matters and just leave the download picture on my desktop, waiting for later on. 'Tomorrow will be a better time', nice song. I wish you a restful and peaceful festive time, Nina. Op 24-dec-2009, om 15:45 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > The downloading procedure should be the same. The file size for the > Dutch version seems to be bigger than the one in English, so I'm > hoping this is a dedicated Dutch version, not just a copy of the > English one. #103824 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:57 pm Subject: Our present moment diary, to Ken H. nilovg Dear Ken H, There is only the present moment. I am reading Cambodian talks to Lodewijk and thought of you. Lovely reminders. < Pa is not developed if one merely expects to know what has not arisen yet, what has not appeared yet. However, there is a way to test whether or not there is the real pa at this moment, when a reality is appearing. We can find out whether or not the characteristic of that reality can be understood as a nma dhamma or a rpa dhamma. People should not have false expectations to know a reality other than the dhamma that appears at this very moment. At this moment a reality is appearing but there is no paa which knows as it really is the characteristic of that reality. How can pa then develop? If there is no understanding at this moment, there will not be understanding at the next moment. Only when pa arises together with sati, when there is awareness and understanding of the characteristic of the reality that appears, can pa can gradually develop. Pa can grow together with sati which is aware over and over again of the characteristics of all kinds of dhammas. In this way there can be understanding of all dhammas appearing through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-door. People should understand correctly that the reality appearing at this very moment is the dhamma paa should know as it really is. If they do not know yet the dhamma which appears now, they should continue to study the Dhamma and continue to listen to the Dhamma. In that way understanding can grow and there will be conditions for the arising of satipatthna. There is no other way to know the characteristics of dhammas as they really are.> Nina. #103825 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:43 pm Subject: Re: sukha/dukkha somanassa/domanassa. Feelings and Arhat moellerdieter Hi Chuck , All, I stumbled upon an interesting essay recently which seems to approach above topic ( I only started to read ..) 'Nibbana as living experience /The Buddha and the Arahant' by Lily de Silva http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/desilva/wheel407.html with Metta Dieter #103826 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas truth_aerator Hello Vince, All, When Sarvastivadins say that everything exist, as I understand it, they mean that 12 ayatanas (for example) exist, but not a person (imaginative whole). Some Buddhists don't only deny the whole, they also deny the existence of parts (such as 12 ayatana, 18 dhatu, 5 khandha, etc). But such denial appears too nihilistic. If wholes and parts do not exist, then we run into experiential problems... If past doesn't really exist *in any way*, then how can you recollect remember the past? You can't recollect something that doesn't exist in any way! If the past doesn't exist in *any way* then all talk about accumulation of kusala or akusala is USELESS (as the "bank account" is cleared every moment). With metta, Alex #103827 From: "James" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:19 am Subject: Merry Christmas! buddhatrue Hi All, "When some western monks of Achaan Chah (Thai Forest tradition meditation master) wanted to make a special day of Christmas, with a ceremony of gift giving and merit making, some of his disciples asked how this could be when they had ordained as Buddhists. Wasn't Christmas a Christian festival? Achaan Chah: I explained how all people in the world are fundamentally the same. Calling them Europeans, Americans or Thais just indicates where they were born or the color of their hair, but they all have basically the same kind of minds and bodies; all belong to the same family of people being born, growing old, and dying. When you understand this differences become unimportant. Similarly, if Christmas is an occasion where people make a particular effort to do what is good and kind and helpful to others in some way, that's important and wonderful, no matter what system you use to describe it. So I told the villagers, "Today we'll call it Chris-Buddhamas. As long as people are practising properly, they're practising Christ-Buddhism, and things are fine." I teach this way to enable people to let go of their attachments to various concepts and to see what is happening in a straightforward and natural way. Anything that inspires us to see what is true and do what is good is proper practice. You may call it anything you like." http://www.beliefne t.com/boards/ message_list. asp?pageID= 2&discussionID= 309217&messages_ per_page= 16 http://www.what- buddha-taught. net/Books2/ Ajahn_Chah_ A_Still_Forest_ Pool.htm# Questions% 20for%20the% 20Teacher Merry Christmas! James #103828 From: Vince Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:49 am Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Hi Alex. > If past doesn't really exist *in any way*, then how can you > recollect remember the past? You can't recollect something that > doesn't exist in any way! If the past doesn't exist in *any way* > then all talk about accumulation of kusala or akusala is USELESS (as > the "bank account" is cleared every moment). I'm sorry for my past comment; the paper goes more in depth just after the mentioned cited. I'm still reading it. I think what you says about the accumulation of kusala/akusala can be included in the same problem so maybe the paper also can be interesting for you. On my side still I don't keep any solid thought about your doubts neither mine. Maybe other people can help. According the paper, there is a commentary of Buddhaghosa called Atthasaalinii, which it seems can clarify in detail the nature of time as a relation between objects according the Abhidhamma. Making a Google search for some Atthasaalinii on-line, I cannot find it. But it seems there is a translation of Nina, so is she want to made some comments after her christmas break it will be good to read Vince. #103829 From: "Mike" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:28 am Subject: Re: Merry Christmas! mikenz66 Thanks James. Merry Christmas. Further to your post, here's some of Ajahn Chah's monks with a Christmas tree in 1974. http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2688&start=0#p38025 Metta Mike #103830 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: pdf ptaus1 Dear Nina and all, > I wish you a restful and peaceful festive time, > Nina Thanks very much, happy holidays to all :) Also, congrats to Sarah and Jon as the list will soon turn 10 :) Best wishes pt #103831 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas truth_aerator Hello Vince, and all, There is an interesting book about Dharmas (in Sarvastivada and Sautrantika Abhidhamma) Good book (partially available on google books) is The Central Conception of Buddhism and the Meaning of the Word Dharma http://books.google.com/books?id=C4HSakZwijIC&dq=The+Central+Conception+of+Buddh\ ism+and+the+Meaning+of+the+Word+%22dharma%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=5\ fXl_DZEuc&sig=Br9VN27AriDYy6lmmX9M7C7Dcm8&hl=en&ei=6CA0S7nDJ5GysgOxifnCBA&sa=X&o\ i=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false For example Sarvastivadins apparently did teach that: 1) all 75 Dhammas are not-substance (anatta), 2) 72 Dhammas had NO duration (anicca) (!) 3) They all are dukkha 4) The all end in Nibbana. (pg 21) If those 4 claims are correct, then they totally refute the comic book presentation of eternal and unchanging elements existing in "past, present and future" that were refuted by later, more righteous Buddhists. With metta, Alex #103832 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas ptaus1 Hi Vince and Alex, > V: I wonder how abhidhamma explain the Time as another object > of understanding. In the Useful Posts file, there's a section under "T" called: "Time, Timescales, Lifespans and Aeons, Adze handle, Time & Present Moment see also 'Moments'" As I remember, I found it useful when considering time in abhidhamma. Best wishes pt #103833 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Merry Christmas! upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 12/24/2009 7:22:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: #103827 ...snip... Merry Christmas! -------------------------------------------------- The same to you, James - and to all here: A very merry Christmas and all the peace and love (upekkha and metta - just to keep this Buddhist! ;-) that the holiday signifies. ------------------------------------------------ James =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103834 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:38 am Subject: Abhidhamma Objection: eas Re: What Was Not Said !!! dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Chuck, all, > > > As I understand it, Abhidhamma and later Comy treats 4 pairs of people only as mind moments. > > 4 pairs: Stream Enterer and one on the path to stream entry * > Once-returner and one on the path to once returning. > Non-Returner and one on the path to non-returning > Arhat and one on the path to arhatship. > > According to the suttas, those are actual people that can walk and talk. One doesn't become one pair for a mind moment, although the moment of penetrating higher paths&fruits may last for a moment, an "aha!" moment. > C: There are many mind-moments between birth and death, are there not? C: FWIW, I believe a careful, open-minded study of the sutta-pitaka and abhidhamma-pitaka reveals a very close correlation. The few exceptions are minor. Alex: > * As to saddhanusarin and dhammanusarin . These are holy people on the path to Sotopanna. They can remain on that stage for the rest of their life, but they will become Sotopanna prior to dying. C: Are you sure? Alex: They don't exist only for "a mind moment". > C: How do you know? Fact or opinion? C: Suggest a sutta-pitaka study of instances where the historic Buddha taught meditation. Alex: > See suttas in Okkanti-Samyutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.001.than.html > > And MN70. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html > > For more definition of these types. (there are other suttas as well). > > > With metta, > > Alex > > > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103835 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:54 pm Subject: Without Possessions! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Clinging to Possessions always entails Misery! The Buddha encouraged relinquishing possessions thereby ending suffering: Those who are greedy and needy for cherished things cannot ever end grief, sorrow, and miserliness. Seeking security the recluse therefore relinquishes all possessions and wanders forth into homelessness. Dwelling withdrawn and remote, secluded in senses, he finds it agreeable not show himself anywhere! Not dependent upon anything, the sage finds nothing pleasant or unpleasant. Neither possessiveness, nor lamentation, nor what is seen or heard or thought clings to his mind, just as water cannot ever cling to a lotus-leaf... Sutta-Nipata 809-812 Edited excerpt. <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #103836 From: "colette" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:40 am Subject: PUZZLEMENT? ksheri3 HI Group, What is this schtick: "an emptiness of dhammas"? Okay, lets first put forth that the definition of "emptiness" is held within the definition of SHUNYATA or SUNYATA which is a Buddhist term for the proper interpretation of the meaning held within the term SHUNYATA or SUNYATA. fine, now we have a point upon which we can dealwith this concept of EMPTINESS which is being bantied about. Dhammas or Dharmas, holy shit. This is gonna take some time! Lets take it upon ourselves to designate that this "valueless", this worthlessness, this EMPTINESS, which neophytes are bantying about, lets take this concept as being without substance to effect any change within the ULTIMATE REALITY. Ah, yes, you will challenge me on the issue of noumena and phenomena which is why I specified "substance" which places your consciousness within the relm of a RUPA and not a Nama. Is the puzzle now more difficult to piece togehter? How so? What is a Dharma or Dhamma? Is this hypothetical Dhamma or Dharma without substance if it was THEN? What if this Dhamma or Dharma was BEFORE and not THEN? Does that change the perspective? I'm saying that this "dhamma" or this "dharma" exists in the mind and it is your mind that extends to this dharma or dhamma to make a connection of reality to this dharma which then verifies this dharma as EXISTANT. Ah, but it does not exist since it is only MIND-ONLY, noumena, psychological, hypothetical, and has not foundation. Damn, foundation means that a concrete reality must exist, no? Wow, lets take a little trip i.e. " come on take a little walk with me baby and tell me who do you love" The Delaware Destoyers This is what makes the problem for the Mind Only School. Take from you and extend that which is internal to the external. Why is it so easy to take that what is EXTERNAL and make it INTERNAL? With this being so easy then it should be no problem to take that which is INTERNAL and make it EXTERNAL. Dharmas or Dhammas are EXTERNAL yet they represent INTERNAL ACTIONS, WHY IS IT SO HARD TO take that which is EXTERNAL and internalize it, THUS MAKING THAT WHICH IS INTERNAL NOW THE FOCUS OR LOCI of the Dharma or Dhamma TOTALLY INTERNAL AND LACKING EXTERNAL TANGIBILIY; focus on this internal aspect, experience this internal aspect, then extend that which is internal to that which is hypothetically EXTERNAL. It's wild since this MIND ONLY SCHOOL suggests the reality of nothing more than that which is INTERNAL and that which is EXTERNAL as LACKING or SHUNYA or SUNYA. Merry Xmas. Shall we play? toodles, colette #103837 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:16 am Subject: Re: Sangiiti Sutta Fives, 316, 11, 12, and commentary. jonoabb Hi Scott > Scott: This is made very clear in the texts. Take, for instance, Visuddhimagga I, 17: > > "What is virtue? It is *the states* beginning with volition present in one who abstains from killing living things, etc., or in one who fulfils the practice of the duties. For this is said in the Pa.tisabhidaa: 'What is virtue? There is virtue as volition, virtue as consciousness-concomitant (cetisika), virtue as restraint, virtue as non-transgression,' (Ps. i, 44). ... > =============== Thanks very much for posting this passage. Very explicit on the point of sila as just dhammas in the ultimate sense. As you say, only too easy to think of sila in terms of being/becoming this or that kind of person. Jon #103838 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:46 am Subject: Re: sukha/dukkha somanassa/domanassa. Feelings and Arhat jonoabb Hi Alex (103794) > "And what is the pleasure-faculty (Sukhavedaniyaṃ)? Any physical pleasure, physical comfort born of body-contact to be experienced as pleasure & comfort. That is called the pleasure-faculty. > > "And what is the pain-faculty (dukkhindriyaṃ)? Any physical pain, physical discomfort born of body-contact to be experienced as pain & discomfort. That is called the pain-faculty. > > "And what is the happiness-faculty (somanassindriyaṃ)? Any mental pleasure, mental comfort born of intellect-contact to be experienced as pleasure & comfort. That is called the happiness-faculty. > > "And what is the distress-faculty (domanassindriyaṃ)? Any mental pain, mental discomfort born of intellect-contact to be experienced as pain & discomfort. That is called the distress-faculty. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.038.than.html > ===== > > Sukha & Dukkha there is defined as physical feeling only. > Somanassa & Domanassa is mental feeling only. PTS SN 5.210 Tatiyavibhaṅgasuttaṃ > > SN 36.6 denies Aryan disciple to have sukha/dukkha. > "Na vedanaṃ vedayati sapañño, Sukhampi dukkhampi bahussutopi;" > PTS SN 4.209 > =============== It cannot be assumed that a given term carries the same meaning in different suttas. It's always necessary to find out the meaning in the particular context. Remember, it is stated by the Buddha in the suttas that he experienced bodily pain arising from wounds to the flesh and stomach cramps. Jon #103839 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Hard in practice, easy in daily life!" jonoabb Hi Dan Nice to see you back! > > Why waste the 99.9% of wrong effort and then get 0.1% right effort? > > Because the untrained mind cannot do better. "Right effort" is not something that you bring about by deciding, "O.K. Now I'm going to make 'right effort' arise." But if you spout a torrent of efforts, occasionally a 'right' one will arise. > =============== But what distinguishes (to the untrained mind) the moment of 'right' practice from all those moments of 'wrong' practice? Jon #103840 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:07 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 11. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the Book of Analysis (the Second Book of the Abhidhamma, 12, Analysis of Absorption) about the life of a monk: Herein a monk dwells restrained and controlled by the fundamental precepts, endowed with (proper) behaviour and a (suitable) alms resort, seeing danger in (his) slightest faults, observing (the precepts) he trains himself in the precepts, guarded as to the doors of the sense faculties, in food knowing the right amount, in the first watch of the night and in the last watch of the night practising the practice of vigilance, with intense effort and penetration practising the practice of development of enlightenment states The goal of monkhood is the eradication of all defilements through the development of wisdom, the attainment of the state of perfection. The monk is under the obligation to observe two-hundred and twenty- seven training rules. Apart from these there are many other rules which help him to reach his goal. They are contained in the Vinaya, the Book of Discipline for the monk. We read that every time a monk did not live up to the principles of monkhood, the Buddha laid down a rule in order to help him. The Vinaya should not be separated from mental development, in particular the development of understanding of the mental phenomena and physical phenomena of life. Otherwise there would be the mere outward observance of the rules, no purification of the mind. How could one see danger in the slightest faults if there is no right understanding of the realities of his life, including the different cittas which arise? The task of the monk is the development of understanding of the Dhamma and explaining the Dhamma to others. His task is the preservation of the Buddhas teachings. Social work is not the task of the monk, it is the task of the layman. The Rules of Discipline, dating from the Buddhas time about two-thousand five-hundred years ago, are still valid today. Shortly after the Buddhas passing away the first Great Council was held at Rjagaha under the leadership of the Buddhas disciple Mah-Kassapa. We read in the Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning (commentary to the Good Omen Discourse of the Minor Readings, of the Khuddaka Nikya) that five hundred monks who had reached the state of perfection were to recite all the texts of the Buddhas teachings. We read that when Mah-Kassapa asked which part they would rehearse first, the monks answered: The Vinaya is the very life of the Teaching; so long as the Vinaya endures, the Teaching endures, therefore let us rehearse the Vinaya first. ******* Nina. #103841 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:44 am Subject: Re: "Hard in practice, easy in daily life!" rjkjp1 Love this post KenO, and glad to se Dan bringing up hard points that we all struggle with from time to time. robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: #103770 > #103842 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Merry Christmas! sarahprocter... Hi James, Howard & all, Thanks for your greetings and sharing Ajahn Chah's comments - "Today we'll call it Chris-Buddhamas." I liked his good humour and practical approach. "I teach this way to enable people to let go of their attachments to various concepts and to see what is happening in a straightforward and natural way. Anything that inspires us to see what is true and do what is good is proper practice. You may call it anything you like." A good reminder! Reminds me of the pleasant time I spent with him and A.Sumedho in London when he insisted that the apple crumble and custard be mixed in with the curry and rice I'd prepared and we all laughed about this and my keen Abhidhamma studies at the time. Howard, I remember you so sweetly were concerned when I mentioned over a year ago about our surfer friend getting mixed up with a murder and being arrested on murder charges. Well, I'd like you to know that today I bumped into the same friend in the surf and he later joined us for a simple outdoor Thai lunch near our surf beach to celebrate that (15mths later) in the middle of a long, very complicated High Court Trial, all charges have been dropped against him and a young pilot friend. They had been in the wrong place at the wrong time. A nice Xmas surprise for me. I'm thinking of the worldly conditions - gain and loss and so on - anything can happen, but as we were reminded of in the Sangiti thread, it's not the loss of relatives, wealth or health that leads to miserable destinies, only the loss of sila and wisdom. May there be a gain in sila and wisdom for all. Metta Sarah --- On Fri, 25/12/09, James wrote: >"When some western monks of Achaan Chah (Thai Forest tradition meditation master) wanted to make a special day of Christmas, with a ceremony of gift giving and merit making, some of his disciples asked how this could be when they had ordained as Buddhists. Wasn't Christmas a Christian festival? Achaan Chah: I explained how all people in the world are fundamentally the same. Calling them Europeans, Americans or Thais just indicates where they were born or the color of their hair, but they all have basically the same kind of minds and bodies; all belong to the same family of people being born, growing old, and dying. When you understand this differences become unimportant. Similarly, if Christmas is an occasion where people make a particular effort to do what is good and kind and helpful to others in some way, that's important and wonderful, no matter what system you use to describe it. So I told the villagers, "Today we'll call it Chris-Buddhamas. As long as people are practising properly, they're practising Christ-Buddhism, and things are fine." I teach this way to enable people to let go of their attachments to various concepts and to see what is happening in a straightforward and natural way. Anything that inspires us to see what is true and do what is good is proper practice. You may call it anything you like." http://www.beliefne t.com/boards/ message_list. asp?pageID= 2&discussionID= 309217&messages_ per_page= 16 http://www.what- buddha-taught. net/Books2/ Ajahn_Chah_ A_Still_Forest_ Pool.htm# Questions% 20for%20the% 20Teacher #103843 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:20 am Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 13. nilovg Dear Han and friends, a recap: Latent tendencies do not arise, but they condition the arising of akusala citta that is accompanied by the particular akusala cetasikas that have been accumulated as latent tendencies. In the previous section we learnt that sense desire that arises (because there is still the latent tendency) can have as object pleasant feeling, indifferent feeling and the dhammas that accompany those and also desirable rpas. This moment of desire falls away and then the accumulation of the latent tendency of sense desire continues. ------------ We read further on in the Commentary: In the Yamaka the Buddha taught about the latent tendencies also by way of the negative method: To which dhammas does the latent tendency of sense desire not adhere and does the latent tendency of wrong view not adhere either?. The latent tendency of sense desire does not adhere to painful feeling, nor to rpa-dhtu or arupa-dhtu (rupa-jhna and arpa- jhna) but it is not so that the latent tendency of wrong view does not adhere them [11]. The latent tendency of sense desire does not adhere to the unincluded dhammas(apariypanna, the lokuttara dhammas that are exempt from the cycle of birth and death), neither does the latent tendency of wrong view adhere to these dhammas. Actually, the Buddha taught that the latent tendency of sense desire does not adhere to painful feeling nor to rpa dhtu or arupa dhtu, and therefore he said: Except for unhappy feeling and its conascent dhammas, except for rpvacara dhammas and arpvacara dhammas which belong to their (respective) planes, and except for the nine lokuttara dhammas [12] , the latent tendency of sense desire adheres to the remaining dhammas of visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. The Buddha said, The latent tendency of sense desire does not adhere to unhappy feeling and the elements of rpa-jhna and so on. Here he intended to teach the dhammas that directly appear and generally occur, and that can be understood by people who are capable of being taught. He taught, for example, feelings and the dhammas that are objects of sense desire and that can be directly experienced (visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object). He said on account of the latent tendency of wrong view, The latent tendency of wrong view adheres to all dhammas connected with sakkya, personality. In that case he said this for the benefit of people who were capable of being taught: they could investigate and consider that when wrong view arises that takes realities for self, it is a condition for the accumulation of the latent tendency of wrong view to continue. However, when we consider the meaning of the text in detail, even sense desire that does not attach weight to an object or is obsessed by it, still continues to be accumulated as a latent tendency. ------- footnotes 11: Painful feeling is not an object of desire and thus, sense desire does not adhereto it. The rpa-jhnacittas and arpa-jhnacittas are not the objects of sense desire, they are free from sense objects and the desire for them. 12: The nine lokuttara dhammas are: nibbna and the eight lokuttara cittas. ------- Pali co: imasmimpi pakara.ne anusayavaarassa pa.tilomanaye vutta.m. ``yattha kaamaraagaanusayo naanuseti tattha di.t.thaanusayo naanusetiiti dukkhaaya vedanaaya ruupadhaatuyaa aruupadhaatuyaa ettha kaamaraagaanusayo naanuseti, no ca tattha di.t.thaanusayo naanuseti. apariyaapanne ettha kaamaraagaanusayo ca naanuseti, di.t.thaanusayo ca naanusetii''ti. ettha hi dukkhavedanaaya ceva ruupadhaatuaadiisu ca naanusetiiti vuttattaa sasampayuttadhamma.m dukkhavedana.m saokaase ruupaaruupaavacaradhamme nava ca, lokuttaradhamme .thapetvaa avasesesu ruupasaddagandharasapho.t.thabbesu anusetiiti vutta.m hoti. ********************** Nina. #103844 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:44 am Subject: Re: Re[14]: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 24-dec-2009, om 8:02 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > As the Time it's an object of understanding arising according > the conceptual nature of phenomena, then the deeper knowledge of the > arising and falling away of phenomena should imply a different > understanding of the relation between them, and therefore a resultant > different Time to be known and lived. > > So I want to ask if the right understanding not only arises from > the detachment of the conceptual realities but also from the > detachment of the relations between them. Because these relations seem > to be conditions for its deluded and conceptual nature. These > relations are also objects of understanding, and they are grasped by > the self while he is building the investigation and conclusion about > the nature of some object. > > I cannot avoid ask again! I'm looking in "A Survey..." and I cannot > find nothing about Time neither there is a word entrance for "Time" in > the word's list. > > Maybe this matter appears involved in other terms?. > -------- N: Survey, p. 271, under Concepts: < i) formal concept (santhana pannatti corresponding to the form of things, such as land, mountain or tree, which are so designated on account of the mode of transition of the elements. ii) collective concept (samuha pannatti), corresponding to modes of construction of materials, to a collection of things, such as a vehicle or a chariot. iii) conventional concept (sammutti pannatti), such as person or individual, which is derived from the five khandhas. iv) local concept (disa pannatti), a notion or idea de rived from the revolving of the moon, such as the directions of East or West. v) concept of time (kala pannatti), such as morning, evening. vi) concept of season (masa pannatti), notions corresponding to seasons and months. The months are designated by names, such as Vesakha. vii) concept of space (akasa), such as a well or a cave. It is derived from space which is not contacted by the four Great Elements. viii) nimitta pannatti, the mental image which is acquired through the development of samatha, such as the nimitta of a kasina. We read in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha: All such different things, although they do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of thought in the form of shadows of ultimate things. They are called pannatti be cause they are thought of, reckoned, understood, expressed, and made known on account of, in consideration of, with respect to, this or that mode. This kind of pannatti is so called because it is made known. As it makes known, it is described as name concept, name, name-made.> --------- N: We can use the word time in everyday language and then it is a concept. However, time in the way of past, present, future can also denote the relationship between the previous citta that has fallen away and conditions the arising of the next citta, and this is contiguity- condiiton, anantara paccaya, as explained in the Abhidhamma, in the book about the 24 classes of conditions. In your other post you quoted a text that refers to this: This is in one of the suttas and refers to past, present and future of realities, dhammas. It has nothing to do with a concept of time. You suggested that conditions should be relinquished as I understood from your post. Conditions between dhammas are most helpful to understand anattaa. The second stage of insight is understanding dhammas as being conditioned. Seeing arises because of visible object and eyesense. When an object impinges on the eyesense there are conditions for seeing. Seeing is vipaaka, conditioned by former kamma. How could there be a self or person who causes the arising of seeing? Pa~n~naa can penetrate the meaning of conditions more and more. -------- Nina. #103845 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:28 am Subject: Re: Duration of maggaphala, 8 noble people. sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, (Chuck*) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > There are suttas that do say that path (dhamm?nus?rī and saddh?nus?rī, for example) last far longer than a mind moment. That these are actual people who can walk and talk, an action that lasts far longer than a mind moment. This seems to contradict the later notion that magga is instantaneously followed by phala. Dhamm?nus?rī/saddh?nus?rī, (magga) may remain such until his death to become a Sotapanna (phala). ... S: You might like to review some past messages - links below. In one I wrote: S:>"First, I'd like to stress that it is not only in the commentaries and Abhidhamma that it's spelled out that the immediate result of path consciousness follows as in Vism. XX11,15" "Immediately next to that knowledge (stream-entry path consciousness), however, there arise either two or three fruition consciousnesses, which are its result." In the Patisambhidamagga, Khuddaka Nikkaya (~Naa.namoli transl,PTS) it's also made clear. There is a section (1, XXX11) which starts with a discussion of the question on 'How is it that understanding of cutting off of cankers due to pureness of non-distraction is knowledge of concentration with immediate[result=phala].....It is clear that defilements are eradicated by the sotapatti magga cittas and the sotapatti phala cittas follow immediately. See more discussion in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29631 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/60469 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/60476 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69946 *For Chuck, >S: In another article of Lily de Silva's, she refers to the much-discussed Dakkinavibhanga Sutta. She writes: "The Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta enumerates a list of persons to whom alms can be offered and the merit accruing therefrom in ascending order. A thing given to an animal brings a reward a hundredfold. A gift given to an ordinary person of poor moral habit yields a reward a thousandfold; a gift given to a virtuous person yields a reward a hundred thousandfold. When a gift is given to a person outside the dispensation of Buddhism who is without attachment to sense pleasures, the yield is a hundred thousandfold of crores. When a gift is given to one on the path to stream-entry the yield is incalculable and immeasurable. So what can be said of a gift given to a stream-enterer, a once-returner, a non-returner, an Arahant, a Paccekabuddha, and a Fully Enlightened Buddha? " ***** Metta. Sarah p.s Chuck, I appreciate all your studies on difficult points, such as your post on bhavanga cittas. Do hope you are able to stay/return to Bkk when we're there in Feb or another time. ========== #103846 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship sarahprocter... Hi Alex (& Chuck), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > One becomes Buddha or Arahant due to impersonal causes and conditions. No-control. You can't wish "May I become a Buddha... or, May I become an Arahant!" And the whole teaching of postponing one's awakening doesn't understand Anatta and no-control teaching... > If there are causes for awakening now, it happens. If there are no causes for awakening now, then it will not happen now! No choice! No control! ... S: Good to read, Alex! Look forward to more along the same lines... Metta Sarah ======== #103847 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Immediate rebirth sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, --- On Sun, 20/12/09, charlest wrote: > >Chris: I thought you might be interested in the response from the Venerable Bhikkh Bodhi: > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~ > <....> > >I have also found evidence for beings in this state from the reported rebirth memories of people who (without meditative experience) can recollect their previous life and death. Several cases I have read of this type report that the being, after passing away, spends some time moving about in a subtle body (identical in form with their previous body, hence with a sense of the same personal identity) until they find themselves drawn towards a particular couple, who then become their new parents. Some cases like this are included in Francis Story's book, Rebirth as Doctrine and Experience (published by the Buddhist Publcation Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka). > .... > S: With respect to Ven Bodhi, I don't see what such reportings have to do with the question of the Buddha's Teaching on death and birth. We can all report "several cases" of friends and family who report their experiences of God and Soul. Does this mean that they too should be integrated into the Theravada teachings? ... Chuck:>Back early in 2007, on recommendation, I purchased a number of books by Francis Story, published by the Buddhist Publication Society, including the one mentioned above, from the Mahamakuta Rajavidyalaya Foundation. It is across the road from Wat Bovonieves Vihara. To me, it appears you dismiss the book above. Is my perception correct? ... S: One citta follows another citta and it's impossible that after a cuti citta (death consciousness), "the being, after passing away, spends some time moving about in a subtle body (identical in form with their previous body, hence with a sense of the same personal identity)", before the patisandhi (next birth consciousness) arises. There are no "beings", each citta follows upon the next one. So, I believe that B.Bodhi's comments quoted and any anecdotal evidence suggested by Francis Story along these lines is erroneous and not in accordance with the Buddha's teachings as found in the Tipitaka. I haven't looked at the book in question for a very long time, so can't comment on it. Metta Sarah ======= #103848 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, #103681 --- On Sun, 20/12/09, upasaka@... wrote: >The "naturalness" you speak of is, IMO, the result of developed habit. For me, for example, it is "natural" to automatically engage in introspection, being aware of my thinking, feeling, emotions, inclinations and so on with no intention and effort required. I don't need to try to engage in this - it just happens. But that was not always so. At first it was "artificial" and quite intentional, and it is still fostered by my intentional sitting for (what is basically samatha) meditation, though my sitting-meditation practice is also becoming habituated. This process reminds me much of learning to ride a bicycle: At first it is quite "studied," with much intention and attention given to one's effort, and with many false starts, but after a while it becomes semi-automatic. ... S: I think that while sakkaya ditthi has not been eradicated, there are bound to be moments of wrong view and silabbataparamasa (adherence to rites and rituals). As satipatthana develops, the more and more subtle shades of such views and practices are likely to be revealed for what they are and yes, the 'bicycle riding' becomes more and more 'natural' and seemingly effortless. Is there a subtle (or not-so-subtle) intention of introspection or wish for introspection now? Is such introspection really the same as awareness of any nama or rupa that appears without any idea of 'my thinking, feeling...' and so on. For example, if there's awareness of hardness now at a moment of touching, this has nothing to do with any introspection or awareness of 'my thinking, feeling, emotions....' and so on. Anyway, I appreciate your comments and I think we half-agree at least! Metta Sarah ====== #103849 From: han tun Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 13. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. It is very clear. The only thing for me to do is to remember these facts. Respectfully, Han #103850 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself sarahprocter... Dear pt, #102618 Difficult points addressed to Nina, Ken O and I.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > Perhaps it would help to consider the explanation for seeing in Visuddhimagga - light is given as one of the conditions for seeing. So, space again can be said to be a supporting condition for light to propagate through so that it can reach the eyes, but nevertheless, light is given as a condition. Now, how would light be defined in abhidhamma, is it a rupa, or a concept, or something else? Why was it considered important to give it as a condition? ... S: Light is an aspect of visible object. In the dark or with eyes closed, visible object still appears, but there is no light, so no colour. Sometimes it's given as a condition and sometimes it isn't. It just points to the nature of visible object which is seen, as I understand. .... > Or an even closer example is for smelling where air is given as one of the conditions. > > So why no medium for sound then? ... S: I'm not sure whether 'the problem' is the introduction of scientific thinking here or not. I also wonder whether there is any relevance here to the fact that seeing and hearing do not reach or touch (asampatta) their objects, whereas smelling, tasting and touching are said to reach(sampatta) their objects. What do you think? Also, if you'd like to re-state the question or point to your original message where you raised the point, we can ask this and any others when we visit K.Sujin in Feb. Metta Sarah ====== #103851 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Third kind of nibbana element and cessation sarahprocter... Dear pt, #102525 On arahats and upadana khandhas(aggregates of clinging) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > >pt: > > Yes, agreed that they are objects of clinging for others, but I meant for arahats/buddhas themselves - they do not cling to their nama aggregates anymore, and yet their nama aggregates still operate! > > ... > > S: Yes, for the rest of that life only. That's why the texts refer to a) kilesa-parinibbaana or sa-upaadi-sesa-nibbaana (Nibbana with the khandhas still remaining and b) khandha-parinibbaana or an-upaadi-sesa-nibbaana (Nibbana without the khandhas remaining, i.e no more of samsaara at the death of the arahat). > > pt: > From memory, I think this is the point that Mahayana people make - if there are operative aggregates during Buddha's life, but there's no clinging to them by that same Buddha, that means these are non-clinging aggregates (for him). ... S: They are still "clinging aggregates" but the arahats don't cling to them. ... >So, then the conclusion is made that for a Buddha, these non-clinging aggregates continue after death as a direct result of all his innumerable perfections/compassionate actions (arahats, having done much less perfections/compassionate actions, can only have non-clinging aggregates for a short-while). ... S: They don't understand that because tanha and avijja have been eradicated, there are no more conditions after the cuti (death) consciousness for patisandhi (rebirth) consciousness to arise ever again. So when cuti citta falls away, no more of the 4 nama khandhas even for an instant. The rupas continue to arise and fall away, conditioned by temperature only. Even these rupas are upadana rupas for those who cling to them. ... > > As you pointed out, this doesn't quite go together with the cuti citta having to be the last one in life, so they get around it by saying that the Buddha doesn't in fact die, but only puts on a show of dying to demonstrate the 3 marks... ... S:From the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, "The Passing Away" (Sister Vajira and Francis Story transl, BPS): "....And, rising from the fourth jhaana, the Blessed One immediately passed away. "And when the Blessed One had passed away, simultaneously with his Parinibbaana there came a tremendous earthquake, dreadful and astounding, and the thunders rolled across the heavens. "And when the Blessed One had passed away, simultaneously with his Parinibbaana, Brahmaa Sahampati spoke this stanza: 'All must depart - all beings that have life Must shed their compound forms. Yea, even one, A Master such as he, a peerless being, Powerful in wisdom and Enlightenment, has passed away.' "And when the Blessed One had passed away simultaneously with his Parinibbaana, Sakka, king of the gods, spoke this stanza: 'Transient are all the elements of life; Having come into existence they pass away, Good is the peace when they forever cease.' "And when the Blessed One had passed away simultaneously with his Parinibbaana, venerable Anuruddha spoke this stanza: 'No movement fo the breath, but with steadfast heart Free from desires and tranquil - so the sage Comes to his end. By mortal pangs unshaken His mind, like a flame extinguished, finds release.'" ... >Anyway, I think we can drop this for now as there's no Mahayana expert here to participate in the argument. ... S: ! Metta Sarah ======= #103852 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Merry Christmas! upasaka_howard Hi, sarah (and James & all) - In a message dated 12/25/2009 5:20:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi James, Howard & all, Thanks for your greetings and sharing Ajahn Chah's comments - "Today we'll call it Chris-Buddhamas." I liked his good humour and practical approach. "I teach this way to enable people to let go of their attachments to various concepts and to see what is happening in a straightforward and natural way. Anything that inspires us to see what is true and do what is good is proper practice. You may call it anything you like." A good reminder! Reminds me of the pleasant time I spent with him and A.Sumedho in London when he insisted that the apple crumble and custard be mixed in with the curry and rice I'd prepared and we all laughed about this and my keen Abhidhamma studies at the time. Howard, I remember you so sweetly were concerned when I mentioned over a year ago about our surfer friend getting mixed up with a murder and being arrested on murder charges. Well, I'd like you to know that today I bumped into the same friend in the surf and he later joined us for a simple outdoor Thai lunch near our surf beach to celebrate that (15mths later) in the middle of a long, very complicated High Court Trial, all charges have been dropped against him and a young pilot friend. They had been in the wrong place at the wrong time. A nice Xmas surprise for me. ------------------------------------------------ That's wonderful news, Sarah. :-) I'm very happy for your friends, and for you, that the ordeal is over and with a good outcome. -------------------------------------------------- I'm thinking of the worldly conditions - gain and loss and so on - anything can happen, but as we were reminded of in the Sangiti thread, it's not the loss of relatives, wealth or health that leads to miserable destinies, only the loss of sila and wisdom. May there be a gain in sila and wisdom for all. Metta Sarah ================================= With metta and seasonal wishes of peace & joy, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103853 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/25/2009 7:22:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard & all, #103681 --- On Sun, 20/12/09, upasaka@... wrote: >The "naturalness" you speak of is, IMO, the result of developed habit. For me, for example, it is "natural" to automatically engage in introspection, being aware of my thinking, feeling, emotions, inclinations and so on with no intention and effort required. I don't need to try to engage in this - it just happens. But that was not always so. At first it was "artificial" and quite intentional, and it is still fostered by my intentional sitting for (what is basically samatha) meditation, though my sitting-meditation practice is also becoming habituated. This process reminds me much of learning to ride a bicycle: At first it is quite "studied," with much intention and attention given to one's effort, and with many false starts, but after a while it becomes semi-automatic. ... S: I think that while sakkaya ditthi has not been eradicated, there are bound to be moments of wrong view and silabbataparamasa (adherence to rites and rituals). As satipatthana develops, the more and more subtle shades of such views and practices are likely to be revealed for what they are and yes, the 'bicycle riding' becomes more and more 'natural' and seemingly effortless. Is there a subtle (or not-so-subtle) intention of introspection or wish for introspection now? Is such introspection really the same as awareness of any nama or rupa that appears without any idea of 'my thinking, feeling...' and so on. ------------------------------------------------------ There is no disputing that I am very much yet a worldling. Still, progress has been made. It began with intentional effort and is still considerably sustained by that, and morover I am not yet free of sense of self. We start where we are, not where we hope to be. ------------------------------------------------------ For example, if there's awareness of hardness now at a moment of touching, this has nothing to do with any introspection or awareness of 'my thinking, feeling, emotions....' and so on. ------------------------------------------------------- If by 'awareness' you mean "mindful, clear knowing," there would be no "my" involved. Introspection can be intentional and an active, vigorous effort without any involvement of sense of self or idea of self. However, so long as there is still conscious intention, the introspection is not yet automatic and fully "natural". ----------------------------------------------------- > Anyway, I appreciate your comments and I think we half-agree at least! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps so. ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Metta > Sarah ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103854 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:48 am Subject: Abhidhamma Objection: eas Re: What Was Not Said !!! truth_aerator Hi Chuck, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Alex, et al > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Dear Chuck, all, > > > > > > As I understand it, Abhidhamma and later Comy treats 4 pairs of people only as mind moments. > > > > 4 pairs: Stream Enterer and one on the path to stream entry * > > Once-returner and one on the path to once returning. > > Non-Returner and one on the path to non-returning > > Arhat and one on the path to arhatship. > > > > According to the suttas, those are actual people that can walk and talk. One doesn't become one pair for a mind moment, although the moment of penetrating higher paths&fruits may last for a moment, an "aha!" moment. > > > > > > C: There are many mind-moments between birth and death, are there not? > Sure. More than one (or few). The timespan between birth & death may be many decades, not nanoseconds. > > > C: FWIW, I believe a careful, open-minded study of the sutta-pitaka and abhidhamma-pitaka reveals a very close correlation. The few exceptions are minor. > Sure. > > Alex: > > * As to saddhanusarin and dhammanusarin . These are holy people on the path to Sotopanna. They can remain on that stage for the rest of their life, but they will become Sotopanna prior to dying. > > > C: Are you sure? Check some of the suttas. In Okkanti Samyutta it is stated that a saddhanusarin and dhammanusarin can remain such until their death, when they WILL become sotopanna. This timescale can involve many years, if not decades. > > Alex: > They don't exist only for "a mind moment". > > > > > C: How do you know? Fact or opinion? Sutta passages. > > C: Suggest a sutta-pitaka study of instances where the historic >Buddha taught meditation. is that relevant question to the current theme? Anyhow, there is anapanasati suttas (for example). > Alex: > > See suttas in Okkanti-Samyutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.001.than.html > > > > And MN70. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html > > > > For more definition of these types. (there are other suttas as well). > > > > > > With metta, > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > peace... > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > With metta, Alex #103855 From: Vince Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:04 am Subject: Re[15]: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Nina wrote: > N: We can use the word time in everyday language and then it is a > concept. However, time in the way of past, present, future can also denote the > relationship between the previous citta that has fallen away and > conditions the arising of the next citta, and this is contiguity- > condiiton, anantara paccaya, as explained in the Abhidhamma, in the > book about the 24 classes of conditions. yes, I refer to the relation between citta-moments. From what you says I understand the time it's a relation arising between dhammas. So, there is a citta that has fallen away and there is a new citta arising. And from this relation then the Time is born. However, when we say that something arises or has fallen away, here it seems the time abides previously and in an implicit way. Because the "Falling away" should contain the continuity principle to preserve its meaning. "Arising" it's the same case. If the time it's not already present in the citta which falls away, then such citta could not fall away but she will be something permanent. Same case with citta arising. In both cases, the existence of Time seems to be already present in their own definition as "falling" or "arising". Note we read the Time still was not present in each one but it will arise later to be the relation between both. After knowing the existence of the two cittas then appears the time, and not before. It sounds quite contradictory to me. About the reading of anantara paccaya you recommend me: "Ch.4 Proximity-Condition (anantara-paccaya) and Contiguity-Condition (samanantara-paccaya): Anantara (proximity) means: without interval. Anantara and samanantara (contiguity) are different in name, but the same in meaning (Visuddhimagga, XVII, 74)[54]. The preceding citta is the condition, paccaya, for the arising of the subsequent citta which is the conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). The conditions of proximity and of contiguity do not pertain to rupa. Rupa can be produced by four factors: by kamma, by citta, by food and by temperature or heat. Rupas arise and then fall away and so long as there are conditions new rupas are produced by the four factors[55]". *** http://www.dhammastudy.com/Conditions4.html I only ask: To what belongs proximity and contiguity?. To citta itself? > In your other post you quoted a text that refers to this: form (ruupa) there has been, which has ceased to be, which is past and has changed > is called, reckoned or termed "has been" (ahosi); it is not reckoned as "it exists" (atthi) > nor as "it will be" (bhavissati).> > This is in one of the suttas and refers to past, present and future > of realities, dhammas. It has nothing to do with a concept of time. well, I have understood a possible meaning in the following sense: when some form belongs to the past and has ceased to be, it cannot be taken as if she still is here-and-now. Then, when considering the continuity among cittas, I wonder about the risks of using the "previous" and "next" as if both were here-and-now in order to support the explanation of continuity. Because in that case, we are establishing a relation between the present citta and a citta which belong to the past, non-existent now. There can be only one citta at a time. It is not quite similar to the reckoning of "it exists" appearing in the Sutta? > You suggested that conditions should be relinquished as I understood > from your post. Conditions between dhammas are most helpful to > understand anattaa. The second stage of insight is understanding > dhammas as being conditioned. no, I don't say the conditions must be relinquished. In that point just I ask if one should be aware of the attachment to the first understanding of the name-made objects, as in the case of Time. best, Vince, #103856 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Howard & all, > > #103681 > > --- On Sun, 20/12/09, upasaka@... wrote: > >The "naturalness" you speak of is, IMO, the result of developed habit. > For me, for example, it is "natural" to automatically engage in > introspection, being aware of my thinking, feeling, emotions, inclinations and so on with no intention and effort required. I don't need to try to engage in this - it just happens. But that was not always so. At first it was "artificial" and quite intentional, and it is still fostered by my intentional sitting for (what is basically samatha) meditation, though my sitting-meditation practice is also becoming habituated. This process reminds me much of learning to ride a bicycle: At first it is quite "studied," with much intention and attention given to one's effort, and with many false starts, but after a while it becomes semi-automatic. > ... > S: I think that while sakkaya ditthi has not been eradicated, there are bound to be moments of wrong view and silabbataparamasa (adherence to rites and rituals). As satipatthana develops, the more and more subtle shades of such views and practices are likely to be revealed for what they are and yes, the 'bicycle riding' becomes more and more 'natural' and seemingly effortless. > > Is there a subtle (or not-so-subtle) intention of introspection or wish for introspection now? Is such introspection really the same as awareness of any nama or rupa that appears without any idea of 'my thinking, feeling...' and so on. > > For example, if there's awareness of hardness now at a moment of touching, this has nothing to do with any introspection or awareness of 'my thinking, feeling, emotions....' and so on. > > Anyway, I appreciate your comments and I think we half-agree at least! > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > Dear Sarah, Howard, all, In the beginning it seems almost impossible for a worldling to be without self views and latent tendencies. So in the beginning it makes sense to use yet-uneradicated self view and bad tendencies to make Dhamma a habit. There may be a need for an incentive to get one started, so to say. Eventually the ego will bury itself (or actually realize anatta and no-control). So forceful study may be required at first. Then eventually it will become more and more ingrained habit (to examine things in terms of impersonal dhammas) and eventually Self View will be dropped and proper understanding will develop. However, one shouldn't avoid the preliminary steps. It is like trying to polish a 2nd floor, before even building the 1st floor. IMHO. With metta, Alex #103857 From: Vince Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:17 am Subject: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... pt wrote: > In the Useful Posts file, there's a section under "T" called: > "Time, Timescales, Lifespans and Aeons, Adze handle, Time & Present Moment see > also 'Moments'" > > As I remember, I found it useful when considering time in abhidhamma. thanks pt,. Sarah, Alex, Nina and all for the useful related cites and papers. There is a lot of information across internet to be lost so it is very welcome. * Alex, I have found the Stcherbatsky complete book is around internet in the same scanned edition of 1923 :) Vince, #103858 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:25 am Subject: Conditionality belongs to which dhamma ? truth_aerator Dear Nina, Vince, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > I only ask: To what belongs proximity and contiguity?. To citta >itself? I wonder the same question: To what Dhamma does any of 24 conditions belong? Is "conditionality" a Dhamma? If so, which one? Is arising, persistence, fall a Dhamma? Is impermanence a Dhamma? Does anicca belong to one or to continuity of Dhammas? With metta, Alex #103859 From: "colette" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:19 am Subject: Re: PUZZLEMENT? ksheri3 I'm replying to MY SELF -- I'm having my own hallucination that a self exists so play along with me here as though you were in the audience of a one man show or is that a one woman show. WHAT DOES THIS OBSURDITY OF A PRESENT DHARMA MEAN? Is "emptiness", that which is sunya, is this emptiness PRESENT, PAST, or FUTURE? If I am to believe it is PRESENT then wasn't or isn't it nothing more than the residual effects of a bija, a seed "that wasplanted in my brain" as P.Simon once said? EFFECTS? Oh, I know, RESULTANT PHENOMENA. Well, that changes things huh? How can I be sure that it actually did exist in a PAST that I have no ability to verify? Boy, this would mean, that on this xmas day, that I'd be having one heck of a hallucination: to actually trust and have faith in a hallucination actually existing in the PAST which I can now hallucinate AS THE PRESENT! Why am I placing so much faith in the validity of HALLUCINATIONS? Alas, it's getting a bit too contrived with all this negotiating with hallucinations to bring my consciousness to realize what is and is not. This means, boys & girls, that I'll be off to ponder such odd effects that such elixers of the gods bring forth in my "consciousness". Somehow I can't get the picture of that iconography from Ankor Wat out of my head depicting the "churning of" this hypothetical "elixir of the gods" and how my monastic friends remind not to partake of "intoxicating" liquors. another seperate meditation point: why is it all right for the hypothetical gods to ingest intoxicating liquors but it's not all right for me, as an earth bound sentient being, to partake of intoxicating liquors? MERRY XMAS, all! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > HI Group, > > What is this schtick: "an emptiness of dhammas"? <....> #103860 From: "colette" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now ksheri3 Good Morning Howard and Sarah, Merry Xmas or Christmas to you both! I enjoy this conversation you're having. Howard, for me, too, this aspect of INTROSPECTION was/is a process of a "desire" but no, since it has become soooooooo ritualized and a norm for myself, it almost seems as though I'm the observer of a reality, a play, a show, even in my constant INTROSPECTION, I am nothing more than an audience member watching the reality manifest before my very eyes. What I really wanted to speak of here was: > > For example, if there's awareness of hardness now at a moment of touching, > this has nothing to do with any introspection or awareness of 'my > thinking, feeling, emotions....' and so on. colette: "...this has nothing to do with any..." IMPOSSIBLE! It has everything to do with introspection. In fact it is the entirety of INTROSPECTION. Manifesting the cognition that a hardness exists is the entire premise of INTROSPECTION. If the mind did not make the manifestation of anything, for instance, in this a case, a hardness, then how could the body have an experience of a hardness NOT EXISTING? I guess I'm falling back on my Bhavaveka and Chandrikirti argumentation and am very deep in this conceptualization of reality through the MIND ONLY SCHOOL. It just seems impossible for something to exist in the mind and not have any effect on the tangibility of a hypothetical reality existing or not. > ------------------------------------------------------- > If by 'awareness' you mean "mindful, clear knowing," there would be no > "my" involved. Introspection can be intentional and an active, vigorous > effort without any involvement of sense of self or idea of self. However, so > long as there is still conscious intention, the introspection is not yet > automatic and fully "natural". colette: ANOTHER ABSURDITY: "...the introspection is not yet automatic and fully natural." BALDERDASH! Is it possible for the act of INTROSPECTION, itself, to be an "automatic" procedure? If so, then this procedure is completely natural by it's own definition. Too much to ponder here. Thanx for the interplay and thoughts. toodles, colette > ----------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 12/25/2009 7:22:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > Hi Howard & all, > > #103681 > > --- On Sun, 20/12/09, upasaka@... wrote: > >The "naturalness" you speak of is, IMO, the result of developed habit. <...> #103861 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:08 pm Subject: Without Controversy! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Avoiding all Controversies allows inner Peace! The brahmin M agandiya asked the Buddha about how to find inner peace: Mental purity is neither caused by particular views, nor by learning, nor by knowledge, nor even by perfect morality. Neither by absence of right view, missing learning, lack of knowledge, or tainted morality, not by that either! Discarding all these oppositions, detached, calmed, independent, one stops longing for any form of existence... Whoever thinks himself equal, superior, or inferior, he will dispute on that account! But the imperturbable one does not enter any self-deceit! Since for such one, there is no I-Me-Self or Ego how much less can there ever be any equal, inferior or superior I-Me-Self! Leaving home, wandering homeless, not making acquaintances in any village, free from desire for sensual pleasures, showing no preferences, such sage will never engage in any controversy. One who really knows does not become proud because of any particular view, learning, thought, or experience, for he is not tied to, influenced by, or led by any of these momentary illusions.. He is completely released through his understanding. But those who cling to certain experiences and particular views wander about causing controversy! Sutta-Nipata 839-842-844-846-847 Edited excerpt. <..> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #103862 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] aim of cetana/manasikaro universal cetasikas sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Mon, 21/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >> A:> A quick question: Do these 7 universals focus on the sense >base, external object, process of sense cognition, or all 3? > ... >> S: A quick question doesn't always mean a quick answer! > > a)The cetasikas (mental factors) which arise with a citta, always including these 7 universals, always arise at the same physical base as that citta. > > So, the cetasikas do not "focus" on the physical base, but rather, the base is a conditioning factor for the citta and cetasikas by being the place of arising (in all planes of existence where there are namas and rupas). In the case of seeing consciousness, eye-sense/eye- base (cakkhu-vatthu) is the physical base (vatthu). In the case of the other cittas in the eye-door process and for all mind-door cittas, the vatthu is the hadaya-vatthu (heart-base) . > > b) The citta and its accompanying cetasikas experience an aarama.na (object). This aarama.na may be a reality or a concept, an internal or an external object. For example, seeing sees a reality, visible object, an external object. I wouldn't use the word "focus" for the way that most the cetasikas experience the object. It can be used specifically for the way say ekagatta (concentration) experiences the object. > > c) As to the last part of the question, you ask whether the universals "focus" on the "process of sense cognition". > > At the moment of seeing, only visible object is seen. In a later mind-door process cittas may think about any concept, including the "process of sense cognition". In this case, the universals would again experience the same object as the cittas. Of course, in the Buddha's case, all the cittas and accompanying factors in a "process of sense cognition" were of course directly known through the mind door processes accompanied by the universals, panna, sati and many other mental factors. ..... A:> To rephrase the question with specific case: On the ocassion of seeing, there are 7 universal cetasikas. Some of which are cetana/manasikaro. Is cetana aimed at eye base, visual object or eye-consciousness? Or all? Is manasikaro aimed at eye base, visual object or eye-consciousness? Or all? .... S: At the moment eye-cosnciousness arises, this citta and its seven accompanying cetasikas, including cetana and manasikara, experience visual object. You can say they are 'aimed at' if you like, but I'd rather say 'experiences'. They don't experience eye-base or eye consciousness. These realities can only ever be experienced in a mind-door process after the eye-door process. If this still isn't clear, please explain in more detail exactly what your question/problem is as perhaps we're missing something behind it. Metta Sarah ===== #103863 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Mon, 21/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >What is now natural habit was "un natural" (and in a sense, artificial) before. >It is true that eventually wisdom may be so developed and trained, that it naturally does things and without conscious effort on one's part. Like in martial arts, a person may "artifically" train a certain "move" 10000 times so that in real life situation - the move would come out automatically and habitually. >As Bruce Lee has said (rough paraphrase). I am not afraid of a person who practiced 10000 different kicks once, I am afraid of the guy who practiced 1 kick 10000 times. " .... S: That's a good one! ... >And another awesome quote by another person: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" >So IMHO it is preferable if one develops wisdom as much as possible and as often as possible. If one does not improve, then mostly likely one simply goes worse - especially for lower class of individuals. Considering our hypertrophied habitual avijja tendencies, vijja should be developed quite hard. Otherwise it is almost "one step forward, two steps back." >To wisely practice, practice and some more wise practice! .... S: Yes, but if it's all 'Me' practising, 'Me' developing wisdom, 'Me' training, then in fact there's no vijja being developed. In spite of the illusion that the 'kick' is being perfected, in fact it's just 10,000 steps back, if in fact it's ditthi and avijja being perfected. The practice has to be right from the very beginning in order to train for the battle. Metta Sarah ======= #103864 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. sarahprocter... Hi Ken O & Jon, > > KO: Yes. we need to learn from books and listening in order to develop awareness of nama rupa. Pse do know that study is not just on books, it is also about studying nama and rupa when they are present. This practise is about breaking out the strangulations of sakkaya ditthi, later on to Arahatship, We must break this habit of conceptualisation, we conceive self which is a conceptualisation of being in aggregates. When we see a new beautiful car, it is just visible object. When we keep thinking it as a car, then we are placing a being/self on the car which is actually a visible rupa. That is sakkaya ditthi. > > =============== > >J: I think sakkaya-ditthi must be more that just thinking of a car as a car, i.e., mere conceptualisation (even if accompanied by strong lobha). There is nothing wrong with conceptualisation per se; to my understanding, the arahant still conceptualises, but does so without mistaking things as being other than what they are. ... S: And, in any case, it is attanuditthi, but not sakkaya ditthi, when we take the car to exist in reality - we're not taking it for being oneself! Metta Sarah ====== #103865 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Don't Later Fall Into Regret. This Our Message To You. sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, --- On Sat, 19/12/09, charlest wrote: >[Extract] "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma. "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." [End extract] Source: http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an05/an05. 073.than. html Discussion? ... S: I'm happy to discuss this quote (or any of your other ones at my own slow pace), but it would help if you'd spell out exactly what you want to discuss. "Practice jhana, monk" - the Pali actually means "develop samatha and vipassana". So we have to consider all the words carefully and possibly look at different translations. Can there be seclusion at this moment? What is seclusion? Metta Sarah ======== #103866 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] aim of cetana/manasikaro universal cetasikas truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S: At the moment eye-cosnciousness arises, this citta and its seven >accompanying cetasikas, including cetana and manasikara, experience >visual object. You can say they are 'aimed at' if you like, but I'd >rather say 'experiences'. They don't experience eye-base or eye >consciousness. These realities can only ever be experienced in a >mind-door process after the eye-door process. Thank you for your reply. It is clear. With metta, Alex #103867 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Mon, 21/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >What is now natural habit was "un natural" (and in a sense, artificial) before. > > >It is true that eventually wisdom may be so developed and trained, that it naturally does things and without conscious effort on one's part. Like in martial arts, a person may "artifically" train a certain "move" 10000 times so that in real life situation - the move would come out automatically and habitually. > > >As Bruce Lee has said (rough paraphrase). I am not afraid of a person who practiced 10000 different kicks once, I am afraid of the guy who practiced 1 kick 10000 times. " > .... > S: That's a good one! > ... > > >And another awesome quote by another person: > "Hard in training, easy in battle!" > > >So IMHO it is preferable if one develops wisdom as much as possible and as often as possible. If one does not improve, then mostly likely one simply goes worse - especially for lower class of individuals. Considering our hypertrophied habitual avijja tendencies, vijja should be developed quite hard. Otherwise it is almost "one step forward, two steps back." > > >To wisely practice, practice and some more wise practice! > .... > S: Yes, but if it's all 'Me' practising, 'Me' developing wisdom, 'Me' training, then in fact there's no vijja being developed. In spite of the illusion that the 'kick' is being perfected, in fact it's just 10,000 steps back, if in fact it's ditthi and avijja being perfected. > > The practice has to be right from the very beginning in order to train for the battle. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > Dear Sarah, all, This is my belief: At first one needs to put in effort (without Self View), but when Dhamma understanding becomes good enough, one drops the effort (that may have felt as if one were doing something) and understanding continues to grow. IMHO one doesn't need to do things with the belief in Self that does... But before panna becomes habitual and strong, certain preliminary incentives may be needed... Bait and switch... :) With metta, Alex #103868 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/25/2009 7:44:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: The practice has to be right from the very beginning in order to train for the battle. =================================== In that case, Sarah, there is *never* right practice, for we do not an CANNOT begin with right practice - we begin immersed in sense of self, craving, aversion, and attachment. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103869 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 12/25/2009 7:44:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > The practice has to be right from the very beginning in order to train for > the battle. > =================================== > In that case, Sarah, there is *never* right practice, for we do not an > CANNOT begin with right practice - we begin immersed in sense of self, > craving, aversion, and attachment. > > With metta, > Howard Well said, Howard. We all have to start somewhere. And trying to practice with right understanding only when there is right understanding, may not happen at all. At first any sort of practice or understanding will not be totally right. But later on and eventually it will. So 99.999% of the practice may be wrong at first (which is why quantity and effort matters, at first), but that 1% will eventually (and in long time, perhaps) be able to grow to 100%. With metta, Alex #103870 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Don't Later Fall Into Regret. This Our Message To You. dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > > --- On Sat, 19/12/09, charlest wrote: > >[Extract] > > "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. > > He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. > > He doesn't neglect seclusion. > > He commits himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. > > This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma. > > "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, > > the one who is keen on description, > > the one who is keen on recitation, > > the one who is keen on thinking, and > > the one who dwells in the Dhamma. > > Whatever a teacher should do " seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them " that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. > > Practice jhana, monk. > > Don't be heedless. > > Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." > > [End extract] > > Source: http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an05/an05. 073.than. html > > Discussion? > ... > S: I'm happy to discuss this quote (or any of your other ones at my own slow pace), but it would help if you'd spell out exactly what you want to discuss. C: It was a general question to start where one wishes. > Sarah: > "Practice jhana, monk" - the Pali actually means "develop samatha and vipassana". C: I do not understand. "Jhana" is not part of meditation? Sarah: So we have to consider all the words carefully and possibly look at different translations. C: Agree. > Sarah: > Can there be seclusion at this moment? C: Seclusion in a moment as used here on DSG? I do not know. Sarah: What is seclusion? C: Well, in the vernacular and mundane, I, currently, am in seclusion. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103871 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:46 pm Subject: Re: Duration of maggaphala, 8 noble people. dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Alex & all, (Chuck*) > > ... snip > > *For Chuck, > >S: In another article of Lily de Silva's, she refers to the much-discussed Dakkinavibhanga Sutta. She writes: > > "The Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta enumerates a list of persons to whom alms can be offered and the merit accruing therefrom in ascending order. A thing given to an animal brings a reward a hundredfold. A gift given to an ordinary person of poor moral habit yields a reward a thousandfold; a gift given to a virtuous person yields a reward a hundred thousandfold. When a gift is given to a person outside the dispensation of Buddhism who is without attachment to sense pleasures, the yield is a hundred thousandfold of crores. When a gift is given to one on the path to stream-entry the yield is incalculable and immeasurable. So what can be said of a gift given to a stream-enterer, a once-returner, a non-returner, an Arahant, a Paccekabuddha, and a Fully Enlightened Buddha? " > ***** > C: I read the referenced sutta. To me, the recipient should not matter. Perhaps, I am blinded by Roman Catholic Theology: "for whatever you do to the least of my brothers or sisters you do to me" > Metta. > > Sarah > p.s Chuck, I appreciate all your studies on difficult points, such as your post on bhavanga cittas. Do hope you are able to stay/return to Bkk when we're there in Feb or another time. > ========== > Sincere warm thanks. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103872 From: "Christine" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:56 pm Subject: 'He goes the way he had to go - why should I repine?' .. Sutta or Jataka? christine_fo... Hello all, During a discussion about grieving and mourning for a dead loved one, I had a vague memory of a quote from a Sutta or a Jataka tale, and I can't remember the exact quote or source. I hope someone can assist. My vague memory is that it is a story about a man who was working in the fields with his son. He finds the son dead. He continues working, but requires the family to send less food at lunchtime. They realise someone has died. When asked by "someone" why he is not upset, he says something like " Why should I repine? He goes the way he had to go". All family members plus a maid-servant end up repeating this refrain. Any ideas of the source? with puzzled metta, Chris ~The trouble is that you think you have time~ ~It is not what happens to you that is important ... but what you do with it ~ #103873 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Immediate rebirth dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > > --- On Sun, 20/12/09, charlest wrote: > > >Chris: I thought you might be interested in the response from the Venerable Bhikkh Bodhi: > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~ > > <....> > > >I have also found evidence for beings in this state from the reported rebirth memories of people who (without meditative experience) can recollect their previous life and death. Several cases I have read of this type report that the being, after passing away, spends some time moving about in a subtle body (identical in form with their previous body, hence with a sense of the same personal identity) until they find themselves drawn towards a particular couple, who then become their new parents. Some cases like this are included in Francis Story's book, Rebirth as Doctrine and Experience (published by the Buddhist Publcation Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka). > > .... > > S: With respect to Ven Bodhi, I don't see what such reportings have to do with the question of the Buddha's Teaching on death and birth. We can all report "several cases" of friends and family who report their experiences of God and Soul. Does this mean that they too should be integrated into the Theravada teachings? > ... > Chuck:>Back early in 2007, on recommendation, I purchased a number of books by Francis Story, published by the Buddhist Publication Society, including the one mentioned above, from the Mahamakuta Rajavidyalaya Foundation. It is across the road from Wat Bovonieves Vihara. > > To me, it appears you dismiss the book above. > > Is my perception correct? > ... > S: One citta follows another citta and it's impossible that after a cuti citta (death consciousness), "the being, after passing away, spends some time moving about in a subtle body (identical in form with their previous body, hence with a sense of the same personal identity)", before the patisandhi (next birth consciousness) arises. There are no "beings", each citta follows upon the next one. So, I believe that B.Bodhi's comments quoted and any anecdotal evidence suggested by Francis Story along these lines is erroneous and not in accordance with the Buddha's teachings as found in the Tipitaka. > > I haven't looked at the book in question for a very long time, so can't comment on it. > C: Hmmm, a lot of typing above... looks like comments to me [beeg Texican grins] > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > as ever... #103874 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'He goes the way he had to go - why should I repine?' .. Sutta or Jataka? sarahprocter... Hi Chris, --- On Sat, 26/12/09, Christine wrote: >During a discussion about grieving and mourning for a dead loved one, I had a vague memory of a quote from a Sutta or a Jataka tale, .... S: A Jataka tale which is full of wonderful and inspiring reminders from the family who continued their tasks as normal after the death of the son. Actually you quoted from it before: The Uraga Jataka 354, see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41002 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41116 On hearing that the father had just lost his son, Sakka asks: "....why do you not weep?" The father in reply uttered this stanza: "Man quits his mortal frame, when joy in life is past. Even as a snake is wont its worn out slough to cast. No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." Similar questions were asked from the dead son's mother who replied thus: "Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go. Even as he came he went, what cause is here for woe? No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." "Sisters surely are loving to their brothers. Why do you not weep?" asked Sakka of the dead man's sister. She replied: "Though I should fast and weep, how would it profit me? My kith and kin alas would more unhappy be. No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." Sakka then asked the dead man's wife why she did not weep. She replied thus: "As children cry in vain to grasp the moon above, So mortals idly mourn the loss of those they love. No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." Lastly Sakka asked the maid-servant why she did not weep, especially as she had stated that the master was never cruel to her but was most considerate and kind and treated her like a foster child. This was her reply: "A broken pot of earth, ah, who can piece again? So too, to mourn the dead is nought but labor vain. No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhist_reflections_on_death.htm Metta Sarah ========= #103875 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:23 pm Subject: Re: Our present moment diary, to Ken H. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ken H, > There is only the present moment. > I am reading Cambodian talks to Lodewijk and thought of you. Lovely > reminders. > < Pa is not developed if one merely expects to know what has not > arisen yet, what has not appeared yet. <. . .> ----------- Hi Nina I really like your choice of reading material. And I'm not just saying that. :-) This part, for example, is pure gold: "People should understand correctly that the reality appearing at this very moment is the dhamma paa should know as it really is." (end quote) Maybe that should be the new name of our diary. Or, maybe we could turn the diary into a book. (A very slowly written book!) The first line could be, "There is only the present moment," and the next could be, "People should understand correctly that the reality appearing at this very moment is the dhamma paa should know as it really is." Or maybe not; some readers won't know what panna is. This book-writing business is not as easy as it may seem. Let's keep both sentences but find something to go in between. I am sure something will turn up. No hurry! :-) Ken H #103877 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:19 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 12. nilovg Dear friends, The monk should train himself in fewness of wishes. He is allowed the use of the four requisites of robes, almsfood, lodging and medicine, but they are not his personal property, they belong to the Order of monks. He is dependant on layfollowers for receiving these requisites and he should be contented with whatever he receives. These requisites are the monks livelihood and he should train himself in purity of livelihood. It is important also for laypeople to learn more about the monks moral conduct. The monk and the layman have different lifestyles, but the layman can benefit from the study of the Vinaya and apply some of the rules in his own situation in daily life. The rules can also help the layman to see danger in the slightest faults, to scrutinize his cittas when he, as a layman, is in similar situations as the monk. Both monks and laymen can train themselves in good moral conduct in action and speech as well as in wholesome thoughts. We read, for example, in the Vinaya (II, Suttavibhanga, Expiation XVI) that monks took possession of the best sleeping places, which were assigned to monks who were elders. The Buddha thereupon laid down a rule, stating that such conduct was an offence. Such an incident can also remind a layman not to ensure the best place for himself in a room, in a bus or train. One may think that one is entitled to the best place, but this is conceit. One can find out that there is at such a moment no kindness and compassion, but akusala citta. When we read in the Vinaya about the monks daily life and about the situations where he was tempted to neglect his purity of moral conduct, we can be reminded of our own defilements, it can help us to recognize our deeply rooted faults and vices. The monk should remember that the four requisites of robes, food, lodging and medicine are to be used so that he can stay healthy and dedicate himself to his task of the development of understanding of realities. The monk should not hint to lay-followers what kind of food he would like, he should not indulge in clinging to the requisites by hoarding food or robes. The monk should not try to obtain the requisites with improper means, such as by pretending to be more advanced in mental development than he really is. He may out of hypocrisy reject gifts, so that layfollowers believe that he is a person with fewness of wishes and then give to him more abundantly. ****** Nina. #103878 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'He goes the way he had to go - why should I repine?' .. Sutta or Jataka? gazita2002 hallo Sarah, Chris and others, the most sobering tale I have read I think. Appropriate as I have just heard that Elle's mother has passed on today. She was elderly and she was ill and I'm sure this does not make it easier for her family. today at yoga, the teacher at the beginning of the class told us a story of him and a friend sitting on a beach in India on Boxing Day morning a few years ago when the waves became really big. A few days later it was revealed that thousands of people died on that day - the day of the tsunami. He went on to remind us that our breathing in and out is so taken for granted bec we never know when will be out last exhale. patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > --- On Sat, 26/12/09, Christine wrote: > >During a discussion about grieving and mourning for a dead loved one, I had a vague memory of a quote from a Sutta or a Jataka tale, > .... > S: A Jataka tale which is full of wonderful and inspiring reminders from the family who continued their tasks as normal after the death of the son. > On hearing that the father had just lost his son, Sakka asks: > > "....why do you not > weep?" The father in reply uttered this stanza: > "Man quits his mortal frame, when joy in life is past. > Even as a snake is wont its worn out slough to cast. > No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > Similar questions were asked from the dead son's mother who replied > thus: > > "Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go. > Even as he came he went, what cause is here for woe? > No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "Sisters surely are loving to their brothers. Why do you not weep?" > asked Sakka of the dead man's sister. She replied: > > "Though I should fast and weep, how would it profit me? > My kith and kin alas would more unhappy be. > No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > ..........snip....... #103879 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'He goes the way he had to go - why should I repine?' .. Sutta or Jataka? nilovg Dear Azita, Op 26-dec-2009, om 9:20 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > He went on to remind us that our breathing in and out is so taken > for granted bec we never know when will be out last exhale. --------- N: Kh sujin would say: just like now. Even now there is dying, citta falls away and is succeeded by a next citta. Kha.nika mara.na. This is better than thinking about our last breath. Nina. #103880 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Immediate rebirth gazita2002 hallo Chuck, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Sarah, et al > > ... > > S: One citta follows another citta and it's impossible that after a cuti citta (death consciousness), "the being, after passing away, spends some time moving about in a subtle body (identical in form with their previous body, hence with a sense of the same personal identity)", before the patisandhi (next birth consciousness) arises. There are no "beings", each citta follows upon the next one. So, I believe that B.Bodhi's comments quoted and any anecdotal evidence suggested by Francis Story along these lines is erroneous and not in accordance with the Buddha's teachings as found in the Tipitaka. > > > > I haven't looked at the book in question for a very long time, so can't comment on it. > > > > C: Hmmm, a lot of typing above... looks like comments to me [beeg Texican grins] > azita: mayb you could be re named Cheeky Chuck [smirky north Australian smile] patience, courage and good cheer azita #103881 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself dhammasaro Good friend pt, Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear pt, > > #102618 > > Difficult points addressed to Nina, Ken O and I.... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" ptaus1@ wrote: > > Perhaps it would help to consider the explanation for seeing in Visuddhimagga - light is given as one of the conditions for seeing. So, space again can be said to be a supporting condition for light to propagate through so that it can reach the eyes, but nevertheless, light is given as a condition. Now, how would light be defined in abhidhamma, is it a rupa, or a concept, or something else? Why was it considered important to give it as a condition? > ... > S: Light is an aspect of visible object. In the dark or with eyes closed, visible object still appears, but there is no light, so no colour. Sometimes it's given as a condition and sometimes it isn't. It just points to the nature of visible object which is seen, as I understand. > .... > > Or an even closer example is for smelling where air is given as one of the conditions. > > > > So why no medium for sound then? > ... > S: I'm not sure whether 'the problem' is the introduction of scientific thinking here or not. I also wonder whether there is any relevance here to the fact that seeing and hearing do not reach or touch (asampatta) their objects, whereas smelling, tasting and touching are said to reach(sampatta) their objects. What do you think? > > Also, if you'd like to re-state the question or point to your original message where you raised the point, we can ask this and any others when we visit K.Sujin in Feb. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > C: This may be off-topic. Delete if deemed so: Sound requires a medium. There is no sound in a vacuum. Light requires no medium. Light travels through a vacuum and through mediums. Sound is a travelling wave which is an oscillation of pressure transmitted through a solid , liquid , or gas , composed of frequencies within the range of hearing and of a level sufficiently strong to be heard, or the sensation stimulated in organs of hearing by such vibrations. ... For humans, hearing is normally limited to frequencies between about 12 Hz and 20,000 Hz (20 kHz )[2] , although these limits are not definite. The upper limit generally decreases with age. Other species have a different range of hearing. For example, dogs can perceive vibrations higher than 20 kHz. As a signal perceived by one of the major senses , sound is used by many species for detecting danger , navigation , predation , and communication . Earth 's atmosphere , water , and virtually any physical phenomenon , such as fire , rain , wind , surf , or earthquake , produces (and is characterized by) its unique sounds. Many species, such as frogs , birds , marine and terrestrial mammals , have also developed special organs to produce sound. In some species, these have evolved to produce song and speech . From : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound ........................................................................\ ... Light is electromagnetic radiation , particularly radiation of a wavelength that is visible to the human eye (about 400700 nm , or perhaps 380750 nm[1] ). In physics , the term light sometimes refers to electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength, whether visible or not. ... Light, which exists in tiny "packets" called photons , exhibits properties of both waves and particles . This property is referred to as the waveparticle duality . ... The speed of light in a vacuum is presently defined to be exactly 299,792,458 m/s (approximately 186,282 miles per second). This definition of the speed of light means that the metre is now defined in terms of the speed of light. Light always travels at a constant speed, even between particles of a substance through which it is shining. Photons excite the adjoining particles that in turn transfer the energy to the neighbor. This may appear to slow the beam down through its trajectory in realtime. The time lost between entry and exit accounts to the displacement of energy through the substance between each particle that is excited. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light peace... metta (maitri), Chuck Post script: One may found this interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light#Hindu_theories #103882 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:47 am Subject: Re: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" gazita2002 hallo Howard, mayb this could be said in another way: , > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > The practice has to be right from the very beginning in order to train for > the battle. > =================================== > In that case, Sarah, there is *never* right practice, for we do not and > CANNOT begin with right practice - we begin immersed in sense of self, > craving, aversion, and attachment. > > With metta, > Howard Azita: may I suggest there is no "we" to begin a right practice and that right practice is only a momentary arising of the cetasika panna, so unless there is panna, even at a weak degree, then there is no right practice? it is possible that there never is right practice in this lifetime! patience, courage and good cheer, azita #103883 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Immediate rebirth dhammasaro Good friend gazita2002, et al ....cut ..... > > > azita: mayb you could be re named Cheeky Chuck [smirky north Australian smile] > > patience, courage and good cheer > azita > C: Hmmm, probably the nicest I've been called lately!!! [verily beeg Texican grins] #103884 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:23 am Subject: Happy Boxing Day was Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Its Boxing Day, time to catch up a bit as well.... ... snip Happy Boxing Day & St. Stephen's Day to all... CheekyChuck #103885 From: "Christine" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'He goes the way he had to go - why should I repine?' .. Sutta or Jataka? christine_fo... Thank you Sarah, azita, Nina, all. I am very grateful. I knew that four years ago - but here and now, I could only recall a vague memory. The mind isn't like a filing cabinet, is it? - you can't pull open the draw and look under the correct heading - and there is the complete undistorted memory .... if only it was - :-) Sarah - after your post, I looked it up in the Jataka collection of books which I bought at such a very low price at Colombo airport - way back when we all went to Sri Lanka. :-) metta to all, Chris ~The trouble is that you think you have time~ ~It isn't what happens to you that is important, it's what you do with it ~ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > --- On Sat, 26/12/09, Christine wrote: > >During a discussion about grieving and mourning for a dead loved one, I had a vague memory of a quote from a Sutta or a Jataka tale, > .... > S: A Jataka tale which is full of wonderful and inspiring reminders from the family who continued their tasks as normal after the death of the son. > > Actually you quoted from it before: > > The Uraga Jataka 354, see: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41002 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41116 > > On hearing that the father had just lost his son, Sakka asks: > > "....why do you not > weep?" The father in reply uttered this stanza: > "Man quits his mortal frame, when joy in life is past. > Even as a snake is wont its worn out slough to cast. > No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > Similar questions were asked from the dead son's mother who replied > thus: > > "Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go. > Even as he came he went, what cause is here for woe? > No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "Sisters surely are loving to their brothers. Why do you not weep?" > asked Sakka of the dead man's sister. She replied: > > "Though I should fast and weep, how would it profit me? > My kith and kin alas would more unhappy be. > No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > Sakka then asked the dead man's wife why she did not weep. She > replied thus: > > "As children cry in vain to grasp the moon above, > So mortals idly mourn the loss of those they love. > No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > Lastly Sakka asked the maid-servant why she did not weep, especially > as she had stated that the master was never cruel to her but was > most considerate and kind and treated her like a foster child. This > was her reply: > > "A broken pot of earth, ah, who can piece again? > So too, to mourn the dead is nought but labor vain. > No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhist_reflections_on_death.htm > > Metta > > Sarah > ========= > #103886 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:06 am Subject: Re: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" dhammasaro Good friend azita, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > hallo Howard, > > mayb this could be said in another way: > > , > sarahprocterabbott@ writes: > > > > The practice has to be right from the very beginning in order to train for > > the battle. > > =================================== > > In that case, Sarah, there is *never* right practice, for we do not and > > CANNOT begin with right practice - we begin immersed in sense of self, > > craving, aversion, and attachment. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > Azita: may I suggest there is no "we" to begin a right practice and that right practice is only a momentary arising of the cetasika panna, so unless there is panna, even at a weak degree, then there is no right practice? azita: > it is possible that there never is right practice in this lifetime! C: I believe it is very possible and very probable!!! A quote: If one does not realise yet that one has wrong understanding, it is impossible to develop right understanding. by Sujin, I believe... > > patience, courage and good cheer, > azita > peace... as ever, el diablo #103887 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives, 316, 11, 12, and commentary. sarahprocter... Dear Nina (Scott & all), --- On Thu, 24/12/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > A friend asked:'Would you be kind enough to recommend me some texts about buddhism and mental illness? I work with kids with autism and mental retardation" ' I wonder whether you or others can help. ... S: I've worked (a long time ago) with such children. I think that we help as best we can with lots of friendliness and kindness and encourage the children (as we do with any children) to be generous, to be kind, to be helpful and to understand what is good, what is bad and what is true at this moment according to their interest and inclination. Like for us, there are different moments, moments when they and we are receptive to hearing about kusala and akusala, dana and sila and life at this moment and moments when they and we're not receptive at all. Sometimes some children (or adults) who have particular problems such as these, are more receptive than some super-bright, 'normal' children (or adults) to appreciating the value of kindness, generosity and so on. Metta helps a lot.... Metta Sarah ======== #103888 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, --- On Wed, 23/12/09, charlest wrote: > C: Phra Maha Prasert Pasittho, Thero is in his seventies. During the Viet Nam War, he worked for the US military in Thailand. That is when he learned to read and write English. > > He has worked in other countries. He was married. > > His Upajjhaya is His Holiness, The Supreme Patriarch of the Thai Sangha. ... S: Thx for showing us the nice pics. I think you must have been the Western monk in a couple of them. James can help you put a couple in the DSG album if you'd like. One of you now would also be nice. ... > His kuti is three or four to the left of His Holiness' kuti. > ... S: FWIW, Jon was ordained for a short period at Wat Bovarnives too - back in the early 70s, 1973 I think. He knew the Supreme Patriarch then as he was the Chief monk at Wat Bovarnives. He used to support other foreign monks there for many years after disrobing and A.Sujin used to hold her Thai lectures and English discussions at Wat Bovarn for a very long time. ... C: After the x-rays at the Bangkok International Hospital (Krung Thep) last Sunday my friend drove me to Wat Bowon. There was no place to park as there was an ordination that Sunday. So, we left. Monday, I begged off as I had jaw gum and jaw bone surgery. Hence as yet, I have not visited my ajahn!!! I am still recovering.. . I return to the hospital next Monday, the 28th, I believe... BTW, did you read about my first ajahn at Wat Thai Washington DC? ... S: Do hope your teeth and jaws are recovering. You also share this kind of affliction with Jon - he's had about half a dozen dental surgeries in the last month, but I don't think as serious as yours.... The affliction of rupas, 'molested' rupas..... and yet, still we cling to them! Yes, thank you for sharing about your first ajahn. I just took a quick look. A lot of reading here.... Metta Sarah p.s Everything you write is fine....no need for any deletions! ========= #103889 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'He goes the way he had to go - why should I repine?' .. Sutta or Jataka? sarahprocter... Hi Chris, --- On Sat, 26/12/09, Christine wrote: >. I knew that four years ago - but here and now, I could only recall a vague memory. The mind isn't like a filing cabinet, is it? - you can't pull open the draw and look under the correct heading - and there is the complete undistorted memory .... if only it was - :-) ... S: Well, lots of stories, the only important thing is the understanding now! I was glad you reminded me of the Jataka....I love its sobering reminders. Life goes on.... ... >Sarah - after your post, I looked it up in the Jataka collection of books which I bought at such a very low price at Colombo airport - way back when we all went to Sri Lanka. :-) ... S: Yes, I remmeber - the bargain of the century! Seems like a long time back, that trip. I enjoyed your company and the Dhamma discussions. I was pretty sick at nights on that trip with my cough, but thankfully since I gave up my teaching work, my respiratory system has slowly recovered. All gone....just dreams....and what about now? Wishing you and your family a wise and healthy New Year! Metta Sarah ========= #103890 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:49 am Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas sarahprocter... Hi Vince, (Alex & all), --- On Fri, 25/12/09, Vince wrote: >According the paper, there is a commentary of Buddhaghosa called Atthasaalinii, which it seems can clarify in detail the nature of time as a relation between objects according the Abhidhamma. ... S: The Atthasaalinii is the commentary to the Dhammasanganii, the first book fo the Abhidhamma Pitaka. You won't find the text on-line (as yet!) - the only translation I know of is one produced by the Pali Text Society. As pt suggested, if you look in the "Useful Posts" under "Time" in the files, you'll find a lot of helpful quotes from the Atth. and other texts. There is only ever the coming together of realities at the present moment. All our ideas about other times, past and future are ideas only. Like the simile of the chariot wheel in the Vism. - it's circumference just touches the ground at one point. Only the present moment exists. What's gone has completely gone, the future hasn't come yet. And what was the present moment a moment ago has completely gone now, never to return. Metta Sarah ====== #103891 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Don't Later Fall Into Regret. This Our Message To You. dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al > ... snip > > He doesn't neglect seclusion. > > > > He commits himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. > > > > This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma. > > > > "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, > > > > the one who is keen on description, > > > > the one who is keen on recitation, > > > > the one who is keen on thinking, and > > > > the one who dwells in the Dhamma. > > > > Whatever a teacher should do " seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them " that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. > > > > Practice jhana, monk. > > > > Don't be heedless. > > > > Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." > > > > [End extract] > > > > Source: http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an05/an05. 073.than. html > > > > Discussion? > > ... > > S: I'm happy to discuss this quote (or any of your other ones at my own slow pace), but it would help if you'd spell out exactly what you want to discuss. > > C: It was a general question to start where one wishes. > > > Sarah: > > "Practice jhana, monk" - the Pali actually means "develop samatha and vipassana". > > C: I do not understand. "Jhana" is not part of meditation? > > Sarah: > So we have to consider all the words carefully and possibly look at different translations. > > C: Agree. > > > Sarah: > > Can there be seclusion at this moment? > > C: Seclusion in a moment as used here on DSG? I do not know. > > Sarah: > What is seclusion? > > C: Well, in the vernacular and mundane, I, currently, am in seclusion. > C: Pavivekattha (retirement; seclusion; solitude): Although sotapannas may wander in the happy course of existence for many world-cycles, their minds will be ever free from being molested by wrong views, evil actions and bad livelihood, and suffering in the four lower worlds. The state of ever being free from the operation of these evil actions and the evils of the four lower worlds, which are the most evil things in the round of rebirths, is called retirement, seclusion or solitude attained and enjoyed by sotapannas From: THE CATUSACCA-DIPANI, The Manual of the Four Noble Truths by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D.Litt. > > Metta > > > > Sarah > > ======== > > > again... > peace... > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > #103892 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Don't Later Fall Into Regret. This Our Message To You. sarahprocter... Good Friend Chuck! Thanks for your further research: --- On Sat, 26/12/09, charlest wrote: >C: Pavivekattha (retirement; seclusion; solitude): Although sotapannas may wander in the happy course of existence for many world-cycles, their minds will be ever free from being molested by wrong views, evil actions and bad livelihood, and suffering in the four lower worlds. The state of ever being free from the operation of these evil actions and the evils of the four lower worlds, which are the most evil things in the round of rebirths, is called retirement, seclusion or solitude attained and enjoyed by sotapannas From: THE CATUSACCA-DIPANI, The Manual of the Four Noble Truths by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D.Litt. ... S: Yes. A good quote and applicable no matter the life-style of the sotapannas - whether to a bhikkhu living in the forest or to Visakkha with her large family and busy lay-life. And there can be seclusion (viveka) now at moments of awareness and detachment from the sense objects which we're so used to clinging to. Developing awareness and understanding at the present moment is the way to become "ever free from being molested by wrong views". So, the seclusion, the meditation always comes back to this moment. And for one of my common sign-offs: SN35:63. (Bodhi transl): 'Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female lay followers, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller.' " Metta Sarah p.s Lots more in 'Useful Posts' under 'Seclusion' ===== #103893 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives, 316, 11, 12, and commentary. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 26-dec-2009, om 12:03 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: I've worked (a long time ago) with such children. I think that > we help as best we can with lots of friendliness and kindness and > encourage the children (as we do with any children) to be generous, ------ N: Thank you, I sent your letter through. Nina. #103894 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" upasaka_howard Hi, Azita (and Sarah) - In a message dated 12/26/2009 3:48:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gazita2002@... writes: hallo Howard, mayb this could be said in another way: , > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > The practice has to be right from the very beginning in order to train for > the battle. > =================================== > In that case, Sarah, there is *never* right practice, for we do not and > CANNOT begin with right practice - we begin immersed in sense of self, > craving, aversion, and attachment. > > With metta, > Howard Azita: may I suggest there is no "we" to begin a right practice and that right practice is only a momentary arising of the cetasika panna, so unless there is panna, even at a weak degree, then there is no right practice? ---------------------------------------------------------- Yes, there is no "I" in reality. But at this point for "us," there is the seeming of such, and that's as it is. So, unavoidably, our practice now is not a selfless practice. But only if there is the start of practice, imperfect as it is, there will never be the right practice we merely talk about. ----------------------------------------------------------- it is possible that there never is right practice in this lifetime! patience, courage and good cheer, ------------------------------------------------------------ Yes. Patience (and courage and good cheer) due to knowing that the result of imperfect practice is improving practice, lessening of defilements, and eventual awakening. -------------------------------------------------------- azita ================================ With metta, Howard /Nothing comes from nothing; nothing ever will/ (Song lyric) #103895 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > > --- On Wed, 23/12/09, charlest wrote: > > ... snip > S: Thx for showing us the nice pics. I think you must have been the Western monk in a couple of them. James can help you put a couple in the DSG album if you'd like. One of you now would also be nice. > ... > ... snip C: If they are of His Holiness, I am in all the pictures. I think all the images of that date are back in Texas. I did post one image on DSG. > S: FWIW, Jon was ordained for a short period at Wat Bovarnives too - back in the early 70s, 1973 I think. He knew the Supreme Patriarch then as he was the Chief monk at Wat Bovarnives. He used to support other foreign monks there for many years after disrobing and A.Sujin used to hold her Thai lectures and English discussions at Wat Bovarn for a very long time. C: Warm thanks for info. > ... snip > ... > S: Do hope your teeth and jaws are recovering. You also share this kind of affliction with Jon - he's had about half a dozen dental surgeries in the last month, but I don't think as serious as yours.... > > The affliction of rupas, 'molested' rupas..... and yet, still we cling to them! > > Yes, thank you for sharing about your first ajahn. I just took a quick look. A lot of reading here.... > > Metta > > Sarah > p.s Everything you write is fine....no need for any deletions! > ========= > metta (maitri), Chuck #103896 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:12 am Subject: Re: Re[15]: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 25-dec-2009, om 19:04 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > If the time it's not already present in the citta which falls away, > then such citta could not fall away but she will be something > permanent. Same case with citta arising. > In both cases, the existence of Time seems to be already present in > their own definition as "falling" or "arising". > > Note we read the Time still was not present in each one but it will > arise later to be the relation between both. After knowing the > existence of the two cittas then appears the time, and not before. > It sounds quite contradictory to me. -------- N:You indicated before that you are interested in practice. Sarah writes just now about understanding the present reality. Sarah: N: Thinking about time is thinking about ideas and it will not be helpful for the growth of pa~n~naa. The present reality can be understood more and more and later on it is the function of pa~n~naa to condiiton detachment, less holding on to dhammas. Then in the course of insight pa`n`naa can know arising and falling away of dhammas. Now while we are talking it may seem incomprensible, but when pa~n~naa has come to that stage , only then will it be known what past, present and future means. A tip: go to homepage dsg, files section and then select audio discussions, anyone, and you can listen to Kh Sujin. I just listened to Kaeng Kracang Jan. 2007: > > V: About the reading of anantara paccaya you recommend me: > > "Ch.4 Proximity-Condition (anantara-paccaya) and Contiguity-Condition > (samanantara-paccaya): > I only ask: To what belongs proximity and contiguity?. To citta > itself? ------- N: This condition is the relation pertaining to each citta that is succeeded by the next citta. --------- > V: when considering the > continuity among cittas, I wonder about the risks of using the > "previous" and "next" as if both were here-and-now in order to support > the explanation of continuity. > > Because in that case, we are establishing a relation between the > present citta and a citta which belong to the past, non-existent now. > There can be only one citta at a time. ------- N: Yes, only one citta at a time. But citta arises because of different conditions. The falling away of the previous citta is the condition of the arising of the succeeding one. > --------- > V: It is not quite similar to the reckoning of "it exists" > appearing in > the Sutta? ------- N: It is present. ------- > > V: no, I don't say the conditions must be relinquished. In that point > just I ask if one should be aware of the attachment to the first > understanding of the name-made objects, as in the case of Time. ------ N: As to awareness, sati, there is no should. It depends on sati what obect it takes. Nina. #103897 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:21 am Subject: Re: Re[2]:audios. [dsg] emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Sarah, looking in the files section, the audios are not listed as before, such as Eric talks, etc. and of each year. I copied all in my computer, but how can others find Eric discussions, K.K. etc? Nina. #103898 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives, 316, 11, 12, and commentary. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: "Another subject now I have your eye. A friend asked:'Would you be kind enough to recommend me some texts about buddhism and mental illness?..." Scott: Oops. I see you meant 'texts' not texts. Sorry. Sincerely, Scott. #103899 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:51 am Subject: Re: Re[2]:audios. [dsg] emptiness of dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Vince & all, --- On Sat, 26/12/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: looking in the files section, the audios are not listed as before, such as Eric talks, etc. and of each year. I copied all in my computer, but how can others find Eric discussions, K.K. etc? ... S: Not in the files section, but at the website where the archives are backed up: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ There is a link at the top for "audio" or else scroll down past the archives and you'll see they're all there. Vince and all, I think you'll find it helpful to listen to a little at a time. Please raise any points that are unclear or useful to consider more. Metta Sarah ========= #103900 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Happy Boxing Day was Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... sarahprocter... Dear All, for those still enjoying boxing day with frozen heads, I checked to see what on earth Chuck was referring to here: --- On Sat, 26/12/09, charlest wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Its Boxing Day, time to catch up a bit as well.... ... snip ... S: And I enjoyed the following, roll back Boxing Day 2006 and a frozen head: Scott:> Say, for example, there is a boy playing road hockey with his dad, like there actually was earlier. Say the boy gets all upset at a failure to make a good shot and becomes all pissy, directing his frustration at the hapless dad frozen in the goal. The dad could notice that he's now feeling pissy and about to join in and act equally pissy but some level of understanding could condition thoughts like, 'Well, its just feelings about colour', or 'No dad' or some such. This could be condition for not acting with pissiness and maybe acting with kindness instead. I think though, that the 'acting with kindness' is kamma for the 'dad' and has nothing to do with the 'boy', or that other 'flux' or 'stream of consciousness' if you know what I mean. The concepts 'dad' and 'boy' and 'hockey' for that matter (although this latter of a much higher order naturally being 'of hockey' and all) are no less apparent at least at this level of understanding but the dad can find a thought like 'No dad' in his head which could alter the whole nature of citta. Care of the ill, I suppose, would also be constituted similarily. No 'one' who is ill, but conditions for arising dhammas including understanding, mettaa and the like. Oh, well, best I can do with a frozen head...< **** Sarah: Glad you're enjoying the archives, Chuck. Scott, how about a frozen head diary up-date for Boxing Day 2009 as I get back to bed.... Metta Sarah ====== #103901 From: "colette" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Don't Later Fall Into Regret. This Our Message To You. ksheri3 Good Morning charlest and Sarah, > Sarah: > "Practice jhana, monk" - the Pali actually means "develop samatha and vipassana". C: I do not understand. "Jhana" is not part of meditation? colette: So, charlest, is it true that you cognize Jhana as nothing more than a RESULTANT PHENOMENA from the act of MEDITATION? Allow me to apply my obscure observation of the jhana experience. Jhana is a descriptive word to relay, to participants/practitioners, the experience that one meditator obtained then found that other meditators could obtain this same condition. One of the aspects of MEDITATION is to train the mind to maintain a focus, to remain in a constant condition without deviation. It is typical for practitioners/participants in the practice of meditation to have a desire to return to a "pleasurable experience" so they trod the path they traveled previously so as to make a BEATEN PATH. Once the path is "well trodden" the condition of jhana can be a norm that exists in all forms of "consciousness" THUS the condition of jhana may then be a plateau, a level playing field upon which future operations can be devised, planned, etc. Any person can achieve the state of JHANA. Jhana is there for any person to partake of. Jhana is not a resultant phenomena that only exists under the robotics of a "guided meditation", as an example. I know it's tricky but you have to set aside your Western psychology and mental training to allow the Jhana consciousness to exist on it's own without your manifestation. Your experience, at this stage of the game in your experience with Buddhism is of the dogmatism from the process psychology of manuals. Release this clinging to the dogma and the thought that Buddhism is dogmatic: realize that your eyes are trained to only see DOGMA and to react to only dogma. <...>Let go of that clinging to the process psychology you were created in and by. Allow jhana to exist outside of yourself so that you can observe jhana in it's own state of consciousness, without your input. so, to re-iterate: C: I do not understand. "Jhana" is not part of meditation? colette: Yes you do understand. You simply observe the OBSCURATIONS that you have manifested and lack the ability to actually observe Jhana in it's own state. Jhana is part of the meditation process. Jhana can be experienced without meditation, though. To those that practice meditation regularly, Jhana is a normal condition. You have to now find out for yourself what the Jhana-ic experience ACTUALLY IS for you. How does this experience relate to the past teachings of the experience; what does it mean to you; etc, and you will find that Sarah was practically as close as I am in that Jhana is a form of VIPASSANA, then you'll see that VIPASSANA and Jhana both actually exist OUTSIDE OF YOURSELF and you can observe them both. Guess what? Since it is EXTERNAL it can be made or re-made to be INTERNAL. Then you'll have to decide whether or not the bliss manifested within you actually is VIPASSANA: IS "INSIGHT" WORTHY OF BEING CALLED A BLISS or BLISSFUL EXPERIENCE? Knowing how the world works may be all fine and dandy when ya don't know and you look at that reality from a distance but once you become part of that reality, well, then the real work begins to define whether or not this "knowing" is actually a good, a social good, etc, or not. Good Luck, it was nice talking with you this morning. toodles, colette #103902 From: "Daniel" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:38 am Subject: A note about 'wrong practice' onco111 Sitting in a corner, eyes closed, intentionally focusing on the touch of breath on the upper lip or the rise and fall of the abdomen or the "light" that settles on the tip of the nose as concentration intensifies; or conscientiously avoiding intoxicants, killing things, and the rest; or listening to Dhamma talks and reading suttas and Abhidhamma---99.99% wrong practice, but the more the better! To make room for the Sammas, every aspect and nuance of micchas need to explored, understood, and eradicated. The micchas are deeply rooted, subtle, and finely divided--no way to eradicate them without thoroughly understanding them. "Wrong practice" (like first deciding "I'm going to sit at the roots of a tree to practice anapanasati" or "I'm going to make a strong determination to keep the five precepts" or "I'm going to walk slowly and note the 'lifting-moving-placing' of the feet or "I'm going to do the thing of imagining the body as hair-bones-pus-blood-phlegm-bile-etc." or "I'm going to listen to and try to understand a Dhamma talk with KS"...and then setting out to do these things) has its benefits--wondrous, indispensable three-fold benefits. First is the mundane benefits of, say, being nice to people by not stealing their stuff and respecting them as more than pleasure hormone generators and the of recharging the mind and spirit by calm and peaceful contemplation and retreat. Next, with greater wrong effort, it gradually becomes clearer and clearer how strongly rooted we are in lobha/dosa/moha. And as we become more and more adept at seeing the subtleties and nuances of our wrong efforts, the understanding arises that "we" can't "do" anything about lobha/dosa/moha because everything that "we" try, fails. The descriptions may end up similar to an intellectual understanding that, say, "formal practice is 'wrong view' because there's always a subtle notion of an 'I' that control dhammas," the understanding is quite different. After a life spent in the pursuit of knowledge, Faust said, "I now do see that we can nothing know." As a final summary of an important wisdom, it rings true, but as a starting point it would be self-deception: picture a freshman coming to college and quoting Faust to justify his indolence... Dan #103903 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Happy Boxing Day was Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "...Scott, how about a frozen head diary up-date for Boxing Day 2009 as I get back to bed...." Scott: 'Frozen head' was like a week and a half ago when it hit minus 47 celsius (or who-really-cares-at-that-temperature, when we were like one of the coldest places on the planet) and the car was frozen for four days and we bussed it... Boxing Day, 2009: The Little Ones have just gone out with the Big Ones - I guess to get out of the house. It's much more moderate today winter-wise; even sunny. Christmas dinner was over last night and about then I can start to relax a bit. Turkey came out nicely-cooked and all the other stuff was done at the same time and it all got served up at the same temperature so... Well, Mike N. and I have just continued our slow-as-molasses-in-January conversation about 'training,' this time, taking off from Nina mentioning Nakulapitar and the Buddha's suggestion to him that he 'should train thus' - eva.m sikkhitabba.m - 'Though my body is sick, my mind shall not be sick.' And I'm wondering about 'training' 'shoulds' and anatta and instructions and not so into the whole 99% wrong effort/1% right effort thing going on elsewhere. Everyone wants a 'should do' but I just don't think it works that way. I figure that that's about 100% wrong. I don't really yet know what the Buddha said to Nakulapitar or what it was supposed to mean or how he took it, let alone how to interpret should or training in the light of anatta. I guess I'm into passivity. And I mean what feels like passivity when I wonder what I *should* be doing. And I figure it just feels like I'm being passive. But I know that while the whole intriguing and energetic conceptually proliferated world rolls on, it is not at all how it seems. I'd say 'underneath' if I knew this was to be taken figuratively, but underneath all the stuff is no one or no thing that lasts. Understanding or mindfulness or wise attention will happen or not. Anatta is truly foundational and I can't get away from how a theoretical understanding of this simply precludes all speculation of 'should' or 'technique.' I certainly don't feel like getting all caught up in trying to do something because I know this is just to make me feel better and for what? Understanding would understand and maybe this would be training? Anyway, that's about all from this Frozen Head at the moment. I guess I'll go put something in a box now, or whatever it is I *should* be doing on Boxing Day, 2009. And you can bet that it will be done with the utmost of energy and alacrity. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #103904 From: "colette" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:19 pm Subject: Happy Boxing Day was Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... ksheri3 Dear charlest, Sarah, and Scott, Splendid of you to mention BOXING DAY. This morning, after posting two posts here, a friend of my Host called her and she had to answer via the internet. AS it turns out, this friend was in London U.K. and we eventually got to the rationalization that this day is BOXING DAY where this woman in London went to Wikipedia for the definition of Boxing Day which she read to us. A nice touch. Splendid gift. I'm thinking of you, my friends, as well. BTW Happy Boxing Day. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friends all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah, > > > > Its Boxing Day, time to catch up a bit as well.... > > ... snip > > Happy Boxing Day & St. Stephen's Day to all... > > CheekyChuck > #103905 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:14 pm Subject: Happy Boxing Day was Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarading: c: "...A nice touch. Splendid gift. I'm thinking of you, my friends, as well. BTW Happy Boxing Day." Scott: Same to you. Put something in a box. It's cool. Sincerely, Scott. #103906 From: "Christine" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'He goes the way he had to go - why should I repine?' .. Sutta or Jataka? christine_fo... Hello all, I thought I'd post the whole of the Uraga Jataka for (probably, my) future reference: Jataka No. 354 Uraga-Jataka Once upon a time when Brahmadatta was reigning in Benares, the Bodhisatta was born in a brahmin household, in a village outside the gates of Benares, and rearing a family he supported them by field labour. He had two children, a son and a daughter. When the son was grown up, the father brought a wife home for him from a family of equal rank with his own. Thus with a female slave they composed a household of six: the Bodhisatta and his wife, the son and daughter, the daughter-in-law and the female slave. They lived happily and affectionately together. The Bodhisatta thus admonished the other five; "According as ye have received, give alms, observe holy days, keep the moral law, dwell on the thought of death, be mindful f your mortal state. For in the case of beings like ourselves, death is certain, life uncertain: all existing things are transitory and subject to decay. Therefore take heed to your ways day and night." They readily accepted his teaching and dwelt earnestly on the thought of death. Now one day the Bodhisatta went with his son to plough his field. The son gathered together the rubbish and set fire to it. Not far from where he was, lived a snake in an anthill. The smoke hurt the snake's eyes. Coming out from his hole in a rage, it thought, "This is all due to that fellow," and fastening upon him with his four teeth it bit him. The youth fell down dead. The Bodhisatta on seeing him fall, left his oxen and came to him, and finding that he was dead, he took him up and laid him at the foot of a certain tree, and covering him up with a cloak, he neither wept nor lamented. He said, "That which is subject to dissolution is dissolved, and that which is subject to death is dead. All compound existences are transitory and liable to death." And recognising the transitory nature of all things he went on with his ploughing. Seeing a neighbour pass close by the field, he asked, "Friend, are you going home?" And on his answering "Yes," he said, "Please then to go to our house and say to the mistress, 'You are not to-day as formerly to bring food for two, but to bring it for one only. And hitherto the female slave alone has brought the food, but to-day all four of you are to put on clean garments, and to come with perfumes and flowers in our hands.'" "All right," he said, and went and spoke these very words to the brahmin's wife. She asked, "By whom, Sir, was this message given?" "By the Brahmin, lady," he replied. Then she understood that her son was dead. But she did not so much as tremble. Thus showing perfect self-control, and wearing white garments and with perfumes and flowers in her hand, she bade them bring food, and accompanied the other members of the family to the field. But no one of them all either shed a tear or made lamentation. The Bodhisatta, still sitting in the shade where the youth lay, ate his food. And when his meal was finished, they all took up fire-wood and lifting the body on to the funeral pile, they made offerings of perfumes and flowers, and then set fire to it. But not a single tear was shed by any one. All were dwelling on the thought of death. Such was the efficacy of their virtue that the throne of Sakka manifested signs of heat. Sakka said, "Who, I wonder, is anxious to bring me down from my throne?" And on reflection he discovered that the heat was due to the force of virtue existing in these people, and being highly pleased he said, "I must go to them and utter a loud cry of exultation like the roaring of a lion, and immediately afterwards fill their dwelling place with the seven treasures." And going there in haste he stood by the side of the funeral pyre and said, "What are you doing?" "We are burning the body of a man, my lord." "It is no man that you are burring," he said. "Methinks you are roasting the flesh of some beast that you have slain." "Not so, my lord," they said. "It is merely the body of a man that we are burning." Then he said, "It must have been some enemy." The Bodhisatta said, "It is our own true son, and no enemy." "Then he could not have been dear as a son to you." "He was very dear, my lord." "Then why do you not weep??" Then the Bodhisatta, to explain the reason why he did not weep, uttered the first stanza: - Man quits his mortal frame, when joy in life is past, E'en as a snake is wont its worn out slough to cast. No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread. Sakka on hearing the words of the Bodhisatta, asked the brahmin's wife, "How, lady, did the dead man stand to you?" "I sheltered him ten months in my womb, and suckled him at my breast, and directed the movements of his hands and feet, and he was my grown up son, my lord." "Granted, lady, that a father from the nature of man may not weep, a mother's heart surely is tender. Why then do you not weep?" And to explain why she did not weep, she uttered a couple of stanzas: - Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go; E'en as he came, he went. What cause is here for woe? No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead; Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread. On hearing the words of the brahmin's wife, Sakka asked the sister: "Lady, what was the dead man to you?" "He was my brother, my lord." "Lady, sisters surely are loving towards their brothers. Why do you not weep?" But she to explain the reason why she did not weep, repeated a couple of stanzas: Though I should fast and weep, how would it profit me? My kith and kin alas! Would more unhappy be. No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread. Sakka on hearing the words of the sister, asked his wife: "Lady, what was he to you?" "He was my husband, my lord." "Woman surely, when a husband dies, as widows are helpless. Why do you not weep?" But she to explain the reason why she did not weep, uttered two stanzas: - As children cry in vain to grasp the moon above, So mortals idly mourn the loss of those they love. No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread. Sakka on hearing the words of he wife, asked the handmaid, saying, "Woman, what was he to you?" "He was my master, my lord." "No doubt you must have been abused and beaten and oppressed by him and therefore, thinking he is happily dead, you weep not." "Speak not so, my lord. This does not suit his case. My young master was full of long-suffering and love and pity for me, and was as a foster child to me." "Then why do you not weep?" And she to explain why she did not weep, uttered a couple of stanzas: - A broken pot of earth , Ah! Who can piece again? So too to mourn the dead is nought but labour vain. No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread. Sakka after hearing what they all had to say, was greatly pleased and said, "Ye have carefully dwelt on the thought of death. Henceforth you are not to labour with your own hands. I am Sakka, king of heaven. I will create the seven treasures in countless abundance in your house. Ye are to give alms, to keep the moral law, to observe holy days, and to take heed to your ways." And thus admonishing them, he filled their house with countless wealth, and so parted from them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Master having finished his exposition of the Law, declared the Truths and identified the Birth: - At the conclusion of the Truths the landowner attained the fruit of the First Path : - "At that time Khujjuttara was the female slave, Uppalavanna the daughter, Rahula the son, Khema the mother, and I myself was the Brahmin." ===================================================================== metta Chris ~The trouble is that you think you have time~ ~It's not what happens to you in life that is important .. it's what you do with it ~ #103907 From: "Staisha" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:59 pm Subject: dsg: staisha_perry Hello all, how interesting it would be if everyone was aware right now, imagine the peace, no words to discribe no me, you, i, my,concept,doubt staisha #103908 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > > ... snip > > S: FWIW, Jon was ordained for a short period at Wat Bovarnives too - back in the early 70s, 1973 I think. He knew the Supreme Patriarch then as he was the Chief monk at Wat Bovarnives. He used to support other foreign monks there for many years after disrobing... C: Perhaps Jon met Phra. Vorn Varattito. He, too, is an older monk. Some days before my ordination, I visited the wat to locate the different buildings so I would not be searching where I was supposed to be. He and several other monks were just finishing chanting when I entered the ordination building. He waited while I was in the room. As I was leaving, he came up to me and introduced himself to me. He was the first monk I met at Wat Bowon. As well as my ajahn, my preceptor, and His Holiness, I visit him. > > Metta > > Sarah > > metta (maitri), Chuck #103910 From: "colette" Date: Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks ksheri3 Dear charlest, I must admit, you given my consciousness a bit of a play here. At first, when you replied to my brashness in warm tones I figured you to be of the "CHAOS MAGICIAN" types since you had familiar behaviors. I couldn't figure you out, still can't but now that I've been reading some of your self-written bio I'm painting a different picture. IF you happen to be as older as you speak of, then, I am honored that you tried to relate better to me/with me in your language and playful atmosphere/aura. That what originally threw me off, your, what I perceived to be as, playfulness, willingness relate to me and work with me. Unfortunately I must get off, it's my host's computer and she wants to get on it, so I thank you. Wish you well and a happy holiday season, I'll leave my questions about you having the luck to meet the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader famed as Debbie herself, for another time. toodles, colette <...> #103911 From: "Icaro" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'He goes the way he had to go - why should I repine?' .. Sutta or Jataka? icarofranca Excellent reminder, Chris! Always the underestimated Jatakas! Mettaya, caro >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" > wrote: > > Hello all, > > I thought I'd post the whole of the Uraga Jataka for (probably, my) future reference: > > Jataka No. 354 Uraga-Jataka > #103912 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" sarahprocter... Hi Howard & Alex, --- On Sat, 26/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >>S: The practice has to be right from the very beginning in order to train for > the battle. > ============ ========= ========= ===== >H: In that case, Sarah, there is *never* right practice, for we do not an > CANNOT begin with right practice - we begin immersed in sense of self, > craving, aversion, and attachment. .... A:>Well said, Howard. >We all have to start somewhere. And trying to practice with right understanding only when there is right understanding, may not happen at all. >At first any sort of practice or understanding will not be totally right. But later on and eventually it will. >So 99.999% of the practice may be wrong at first (which is why quantity and effort matters, at first), but that 1% will eventually (and in long time, perhaps) be able to grow to 100%. .... S: No, "we" don't start anywhere as Azita said. Also, not a matter of "trying to practice with right understanding" - that would be self again. The wrong practice does not turn into right practice, but the right practice develops in spite of the wrong views and wrong practice. And yes, there can be a beginning of right practice now *if* there is right understanding of the reality appearing, but not if there is an idea of "trying to practice". Of course, the Buddha never said the Path was easy.... Metta Sarah ======== #103913 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Sat, 26/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >> S: Yes, but if it's all 'Me' practising, 'Me' developing wisdom, 'Me' training, then in fact there's no vijja being developed. In spite of the illusion that the 'kick' is being perfected, in fact it's just 10,000 steps back, if in fact it's ditthi and avijja being perfected. > > The practice has to be right from the very beginning in order to train for the battle. ... A:> This is my belief: At first one needs to put in effort (without Self View), but when Dhamma understanding becomes good enough, one drops the effort (that may have felt as if one were doing something) and understanding continues to grow. ... S: Who is this "one...without Self View"? Who puts in the effort, who drops the effort, who decides when there should be effort? Doesn't effort (viriya cetasika) arise with all kusala and akusala cittas? If so, how can effort be "put in" or "dropped"? ... >IMHO one doesn't need to do things with the belief in Self that does... But before panna becomes habitual and strong, certain preliminary incentives may be needed... >Bait and switch... :) .... S: You mean this mysterious "one" puts in some greater effort than the mundane variety that arises with almost all cittas by way of a bait. Once panna bites a few times, then the "one" withdraws the greater effort bait, switches it back to the mundane variety we read about in the texts, and with panna and the rest of the path factors well and truly ensnared, the vipassana nanas (with some jhana-spice) are then cooked to perfection:) Hmmm..... sounds like a crafty post-Boxing Day recipe:) Metta Sarah ====== #103914 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. jonoabb Hi KenO (103760) > When an Arahant sees a concept, he knows it is a concept, he does not allude a being or self in that concept. When Arahant sees a car, the seeing is just a visible object and the car is just mind object. There is no confustion. But for worldings, when we see a concept, we think it is real. Just like a car which is a concept is a visible object, we thought this visible object is real, an aggregate to possess. > =============== I would put it this way: When there is seeing there is conceptualising about what is seen, and we have the tendency to take the concepts thus created in the mind as being something that is real. The arahant also conceptualises, but there is no longer the tendency to take that concept as being real. In terms of how this differs from what you said above, it needs to be remembered that seeing always experiences visible object (i.e., mere visible data), and not visible *objects* (such as a car). Moreover, visible object is never the visible object *of a car* (or person); it is always mere visible object. It is our conceptualising again that views visible object as being the visible object of a particular object or person. > =============== We are not mindful that the seeing is only paramatha dhamma without a concept. We take visible object (the car) as real, as an aggregate to possess. > =============== I would say that we take the concept of "a car" as real, whereas it is visible object (= mere visible data) that is being experienced. > =============== That is why AS always say understand realities. > =============== Yes, it is dhammas that are to be understood, not people and objects. Jon #103915 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- On Sat, 26/12/09, colette wrote: >Merry Xmas or Christmas to you both! ... S: To you too and best wishes for the New Year! ... >I enjoy this conversation you're having. >>S: For example, if there's awareness of hardness now at a moment of touching, > this has nothing to do with any introspection or awareness of 'my > thinking, feeling, emotions.... ' and so on. ... >colette: "...this has nothing to do with any..." IMPOSSIBLE! It has everything to do with introspection. In fact it is the entirety of INTROSPECTION. Manifesting the cognition that a hardness exists is the entire premise of INTROSPECTION. If the mind did not make the manifestation of anything, for instance, in this a case, a hardness, then how could the body have an experience of a hardness NOT EXISTING? I guess I'm falling back on my Bhavaveka and Chandrikirti argumentation and am very deep in this conceptualization of reality through the MIND ONLY SCHOOL. ... S: I think that's the point - we conceptualize through the MIND ONLY and think about, have all sorts of ideas about the hardness that is experienced, developing stories about computers, tables and so on. This is all quite different from the tangible object which is experienced at a moment of touching without any thought about the object. There can be awareness of the tangible object at this very moment before there is any idea or introspection about it. Thanks for your interest and support. Metta Sarah ======= #103916 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:06 am Subject: Why Were Bodhisatta And Family Able To Behave The Way They Did? Re: 'He goes abhidhammika Dear Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Howard, Alex, Freewaru, Phil, Chris F, Robert K, Sarah, Jon How are you? Chris F wrote: "I thought I'd post the whole of the Uraga Jataka for (probably, my) future reference: Jataka No. 354 Uraga-Jataka" So far, nobody has said anything about why the bodhisatta and his family members were able to behave the way they did. If someone could read the story carefully and came up with an answer to my above question, surprising scenarios would certainly emerge. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: Hello all, I thought I'd post the whole of the Uraga Jataka for (probably, my) future reference: Jataka No. 354 Uraga-Jataka #103917 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now sarahprocter... Dear Alex, (Howard & all), --- On Sat, 26/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >In the beginning it seems almost impossible for a worldling to be without self views and latent tendencies. So in the beginning it makes sense to use yet-uneradicated self view and bad tendencies to make Dhamma a habit. There may be a need for an incentive to get one started, so to say. Eventually the ego will bury itself (or actually realize anatta and no-control). So forceful study may be required at first. Then eventually it will become more and more ingrained habit (to examine things in terms of impersonal dhammas) and eventually Self View will be dropped and proper understanding will develop. >However, one shouldn't avoid the preliminary steps. It is like trying to polish a 2nd floor, before even building the 1st floor. .... S: Let's forget about the polish on the 2nd floor and consider whether self views and bad tendencies ever lead to anything useful. Some monks neglected to question the Buddha on the meaning of some comments (below) and were said to be like those who searched for solid timber in the branches and foliage and neglected the the trunk of a great solid tree nearby by not. So let's check out the solid trunk to build the 1st floor: The Buddha taught a right path and a wrong path. In this connection (of the building materials and the paths) (AN 10s, 115 "Not-dhamma", PTS), Ananda elaborated on what the Buddha had meant when he had said: "Monks, not-dhamma should be understood and dhamma; not aim should be understood and aim. Knowing not-dhamma and dhamma, knowing not-aim and aim, according to dhamma and aim should one fare onward": "Your reverences, wrong view is not-dhamma, right view is dhamma; and those divers evil, unprofitable states that come to be because of wrong view, that is not-aim; whereas those divers, good, profitable states, due to right view, which come to fullness of culture, this is the aim......Right release, your reverences, is dhamma, and those divers good, profitable states, due to right release, which come to fullness of culture, that is the aim." And remember the sutta about the bitter nimb-seed, also in AN 10s, 104, "The seed": " 'Monks, for a man, a person, who has wrong view, wrong thinking, speech, action, living, effort, mindfulness, concentration, wrong knowledge and wrong release, whatsoever bodily action is carried to completion and fulfilment according to that view, whatsoever action of speech, of mind, whatsoever intention, aspriration, resolve, whatsoever activities of mind (directed thereto) there may be - all of those states conduce to what is unpleasant, not delightful, not charming, not profitable, to what is painful. What is the cause of that? Monks, the view is bad. " 'Suppose, monks, a nimb-seed or a seed of creeper or bitter gourd be planted in moist soil. Whatever essence it derives from earth or water, all that conduces to its bitterness, its acridity, its unpleasant taste. What is the cause of that? The bad nature of the seed, monks." **** S: See the bitter seeds for what they are and forget all ideas of using them as any incentive or of their being of any value whatsoever. The self-views and unwholesome tendencies must be understood as "not-dhamma", "not-aim". They only lead to "what is unpleasant, not delightful, not charming, not profitable, to what is painful". Metta Sarah ======== #103918 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Dear charlest, > > I must admit, you given my consciousness a bit of a play here. At first, when you replied to my brashness in warm tones I figured you to be of the "CHAOS MAGICIAN" types since you had familiar behaviors. I couldn't figure you out, still can't but now that I've been reading some of your self-written bio... > C: And, I must admit... the closest I got to "CHAOS MAGICIAN" is Aleister Crowley (nee Edward Alexander Crowley) when I did a brief study of his possible influence on the Beatles. However, I am a follower of both (1) Chaos Theory in mathematics and philosophy and (2) Bifurcation Theory. Colette: >...I'm painting a different picture. C: Trust you have a full palette. Colette: > IF you happen to be as older as you speak of, then, I am honored that you tried to relate better to me/with me in your language and playful atmosphere/aura. That what originally threw me off, your, what I perceived to be as, playfulness, willingness relate to me and work with me. > C: Hmmmm, playfulness??? Cheeky is closer... ... snip Colette: Wish you well and a happy holiday season... C: Ditto... Colette: ...I'll leave my questions about you having the luck to meet the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader famed as Debbie herself, for another time. > C: Well, with all the sliders and shadow people at this momentous year tyme, let us just say the experience was on a parallel universe... let us leave id at that; id is safer... > toodles, > colette > > <...> > as ever, el diablo with metta (maitri), Zee (aka Chuck) #103919 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality belongs to which dhamma ? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 25-dec-2009, om 20:25 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > To what Dhamma does any of 24 conditions belong? ------ N: They describe relationships between dhammas. Naamadhamma conditions other naamadhammas in different ways, naamadhamma conditions ruupadhamma, ruupadhamma conditions other ruupadhammas, and it conditions naamadhamma. Concept condiitons naama by being its object. ---------- > > A:Is "conditionality" a Dhamma? If so, which one? ------ N: See above. There are condioning dhammas, paccaya dhammas, and conditioned dhammas, paccyupanna dhammas. -------- > > A: Is arising, persistence, fall a Dhamma? ------ N: No, these are characteristics of dhammas. -------- > > a: Is impermanence a Dhamma? ------- N: See above. ---------- > A: Does anicca belong to one or to continuity of Dhammas? ---------- N: Each conditioned dhamma has the characteristic of aniccaa. Cittas arising and fall away and succeed one another and in so far you can speak of a continuity. But they do not last. Is that what you mean? Nina. #103920 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:12 am Subject: [dsg] Why Were Bodhisatta And Family Able To Behave The Way They Did? hantun1 Dear Suan, Chris and others, Suan wrote: Dear Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Howard, Alex, Freewaru, Phil, Chris F, Robert K, Sarah, Jon Chris F wrote: "I thought I'd post the whole of the Uraga Jataka for (probably, my) future reference: Jataka No. 354 Uraga-Jataka" So far, nobody has said anything about why the bodhisatta and his family members were able to behave the way they did. If someone could read the story carefully and came up with an answer to my above question, surprising scenarios would certainly emerge. -------------------- Han: The answer to your question is in the story posted by Chris, which is as follows. [They lived happily and affectionately together. The Bodhisatta thus admonished the other five; "According as ye have received, give alms, observe holy days, keep the moral law, dwell on the thought of death, be mindful f your mortal state. For in the case of beings like ourselves, death is certain, life uncertain: all existing things are transitory and subject to decay. Therefore take heed to your ways day and night." They readily accepted his teaching and dwelt earnestly on the thought of death.] Han: The Bodhisatta and family were able to behave the way they did because they were contemplating on mara.nasati day and night. with metta and rspect, Han #103921 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/27/2009 6:17:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: The wrong practice does not turn into right practice, but the right practice develops in spite of the wrong views and wrong practice. And yes, there can be a beginning of right practice now *if* there is right understanding of the reality appearing, but not if there is an idea of "trying to practice". Of course, the Buddha never said the Path was easy.... ================================ As I see it, if one waits for the miracle of "right practice" to begin, there will be no path at all. The path of practice begins with conventional right view, conventional sila (right speech, action, and livelihood), and meditative cultivation (consisting of ongoing mindfulness practice, right effort, and centering & calming the mind), all of the foregoing while still beset by sense of self and self-view (though ever-lessening), and culminates with wisdom which FINALLY uproots all defilements and leads into awakening. The development is progressive. And to even *speak* of views and practice as things or substances that change is nonsense anyway if taken literally. There are no such things. All practice, in fact, except conventionally, is wrong practice until sense of self is gone, but when sense of self is gone, there is no longer any practice, for there is no need for any. Thus all practice is "wrong" (period) in that it is carried out while still unawakened. And without practice, there is no awakening. The Buddha's samma-bhavana is entirely carried out with sense of self in effect. Yet it is called "right practice," and what makes it "right" is that it leads to awakening. With metta, Howard Path to Full Awakening /Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward./ (From the Kimattha Sutta) #103922 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:19 am Subject: Recalling the Basics: The Noble Eightfold Path upasaka_howard "The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." - SN 56.11 ------------------------------------------------------ "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to _stress_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/index.html) , knowledge with regard to the _origination of stress_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca2/index.html) , knowledge with regard to the _cessation of stress_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca3/index.html) , knowledge with regard to the _way of practice leading to the cessation of stress_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/index.html) : This is called right view." — _DN 22_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html) -------------------------------------------------------- "And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill-will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve." — _SN 45.8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) ------------------------------------------------------- "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech." — _SN 45.8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) ------------------------------------------------------- "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity. This is called right action." — _SN 45.8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) -------------------------------------------------------- "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood." — _SN 45.8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) -------------------------------------------------------- "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." — _SN 45.8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) -------------------------------------------------------- "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves.. of themselves& of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness. d "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of _pain & distress_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/dukkha.html) , for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of _Unbinding_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca3/nibbana.html) — in other words, the four frames of reference." — _DN 22_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html) ------------------------------------------------------- "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the _first jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j1) : rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the _second jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j2) : rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the _third jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j3) , of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation && distress — he enters & remains in the _fourth jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.ht ml#j4) : purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. — _SN 45.8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) #103923 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:47 am Subject: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" What martial arts teach us truth_aerator Hello Sarah, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Howard & Alex, > > --- On Sat, 26/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >>S: The practice has to be right from the very beginning in order to train for > > the battle. > > ============ ========= ========= ===== > >H: In that case, Sarah, there is *never* right practice, for we do not an > > CANNOT begin with right practice - we begin immersed in sense of self, > > craving, aversion, and attachment. > .... > A:>Well said, Howard. > > >We all have to start somewhere. And trying to practice with right understanding only when there is right understanding, may not happen at all. > > >At first any sort of practice or understanding will not be totally right. But later on and eventually it will. > > >So 99.999% of the practice may be wrong at first (which is why quantity and effort matters, at first), but that 1% will eventually (and in long time, perhaps) be able to grow to 100%. > .... > Of course, the Buddha never said the Path was easy.... > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== Buddha didn't say that the path was impossible. If one has to do it right the first time and don't do any attempts, then it would be impossible to enter the path. In order to gain a skill one must practice, and unfortunately before one may have 1 right move, 10,000 attempts may be wrong. A person (with same physical stats as a black belt sparring opponent) may in a full day seminar learn all the techniques of a certain karate style. It doesn't mean that that person could go into sparring and perform as well as a black belt who has been practicing the same moves for 10 years (for example). A martial artist may train a technique 10,000 times in order to have it perfected, functional and combat ready. The above could be a good simile about samatha training. A kick being trained 10,000+ times could be like a meditator contemplating (a kasina for example, or asubha, or whatever). The sparring match is the daily life with kilesas. Intellectually Knowing a technique will not help in a fight. There must be practice where the response is immediate and habitual. > S: No, "we" don't start anywhere as Azita said. The nama does. Sure. Lets not play intellectual hide and seek where you critique my position based on choice of words rather than substance. > Also, not a matter of "trying to practice with right understanding" >- that would be self again. Same could be said about anything. What about studying? that could be done with with wrong understanding as well. Besides, like only studying karate manual will not make one good at sparring, similar is here. Sure I believe that all is not self, no-control, anicca, dukkha, and other ABC's. That doesn't make drop all lust, anger, fantasies about "brave young japanese/chinese girls with guns doing kung-fu", etc, even though I know that it is wrong, useless, a meatless bone, etc, etc. With metta, Alex #103924 From: "kanchuu2003" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:54 am Subject: Foru Noble Truths! kanchuu2003 Hello everyone! I wantd to clearify myself with the basics.. The For Noble Truths.. I want to begin with the first one.. 1.Life is a suffering. Please enlighten me with this 1st Noble truth in detail or forward me the link.. Reagards, Kanchuu #103925 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:03 am Subject: Re: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" moellerdieter Hi Howard, well spoken , Howard. Perhaps one suggestion : you wrote : " Thus all practice is "wrong" (period) in that it is carried out while still unawakened.." to replace 'period ' by : ... is "wrong" ( the finger pointing to the moon , is not the moon )..or something similar) wth Metta Dieter #103926 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:39 am Subject: Re: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Sat, 26/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >> S: Yes, but if it's all 'Me' practising, 'Me' developing wisdom, 'Me' training, then in fact there's no vijja being developed. In spite of the illusion that the 'kick' is being perfected, in fact it's just 10,000 steps back, if in fact it's ditthi and avijja being perfected. > > > > The practice has to be right from the very beginning in order to train for the battle. > ... > A:> This is my belief: > > At first one needs to put in effort (without Self View), but when Dhamma understanding becomes good enough, one drops the effort (that may have felt as if one were doing something) and understanding continues to grow. > ... > S: Who is this "one...without Self View"? Nama. > Who puts in the effort, who drops the effort, who decides when >there should be effort? Fully conditioned nama develops in such and such a way. No "one" reaches jhana, magga, phala, Nibbana. Those are just steps along the way of nama disbanding (due to causes and conditions! No control!). > Doesn't effort (viriya cetasika) arise with all kusala and akusala cittas? > If so, how can effort be "put in" or "dropped"? > ... Nama & rupa develops in such and such a way that we conventionally say "that person went to the forest, meditated, got jhanas, got insight and became an Arahant." Same reply to the other what you've wrote. With metta, Alex #103927 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 12/27/2009 12:04:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, well spoken , Howard. Perhaps one suggestion : you wrote : " Thus all practice is "wrong" (period) in that it is carried out while still unawakened.." to replace 'period ' by : ... is "wrong" ( the finger pointing to the moon , is not the moon )..or something similar) wth Metta Dieter ================================== I know what you mean, as I can see you also know what I meant. Practice is exactly that - practice. It is not yet the perfection that is the result of practice. I wrote "wrong" in quotes, BTW, because I really don't really consider it to be wrong. The practice urged by the Buddha, the noble eightfold path, is practice engaged in within a mind stream beset by defilement. It could not be otherwise. Were defilements not present, no practice would be needed. :-) That is the difference between piano practice or martial arts practice. For such skills as those, even after one is a master, without practice, there will be a diminishment of skill. But once there is full awakening, there is no falling back, for all conditions for falling back have been excised by the roots. With metta, Howard /"Nothing comes from nothing. Nothing ever could."/ (From "The Sound of Music") #103928 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:19 am Subject: Re: Conditionality belongs to which dhamma ? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 25-dec-2009, om 20:25 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > To what Dhamma does any of 24 conditions belong? > ------ > N: They describe relationships between dhammas. Does relationship between dhammas exist or not? If it exists, then where? Which dhamma, citta, cetasika or maybe even rupa? > ---------- > > > > A:Is "conditionality" a Dhamma? If so, which one? > ------ > N: See above. There are condioning dhammas, paccaya dhammas, and > conditioned dhammas, paccyupanna dhammas. > -------- > > > > A: Is arising, persistence, fall a Dhamma? > ------ > N: No, these are characteristics of dhammas. > -------- > > > > a: Is impermanence a Dhamma? > ------- > N: See above. > ---------- > > A: Does anicca belong to one or to continuity of Dhammas? > ---------- > N: Each conditioned dhamma has the characteristic of aniccaa. Cittas > arising and fall away and succeed one another and in so far you can > speak of a continuity. But they do not last. Is that what you mean? > Nina. If characteristics (such as anicca) exist, if so in which dhamma, citta, or cetasika? With metta, Alex #103929 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality belongs to which dhamma ? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 27-dec-2009, om 19:19 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > f characteristics (such as anicca) exist, if so in which dhamma, > citta, or cetasika? ------ N: Citta, cetasika and ruupa, they all go, go. Nothing left of the hardness that was touched a moment ago. Nothing left of the seeing a moment ago, or the feeling a moment ago. Nina. #103930 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Noble Truths! nilovg Dear Kanchuu, Op 27-dec-2009, om 17:54 heeft kanchuu2003 het volgende geschreven: > .Life is a suffering. > > Please enlighten me with this 1st Noble truth in detail ------- N: Text of the Dhammacakkapavattanasutta. < Now this, monks, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, old age is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation from the pleasant is suffering, not getting what one wants is suffering; in short, the five aggregates of clinging are suffering.> What is life? The five khandhas. Included in the five khandhas are all mental phenomena and physical phenomena of our life which arise and fall away at this moment. No matter it is seeing, visible object, attachment, aversion or generosity, they all arise and then fall away, they are impermanent. What is impermanent cannot be of any refuge, it is dukkha. ---------- Ajaan Sujin said: there should be the firm intellectual understanding of the first noble Truth, and that means understanding that there is dhamma at this moment, that everything that appears is dhamma. Dukkha is the characteristic of dhamma that arises and falls away at this moment. ------ The arising and falling away of dhamma cannot yet be realised, but we can begin to learn the characteristics of the dhammas appearing now. That is a beginning. It is of no use to speculate and think of the word dukkha. It is best to at least begin to understand realities as they appear at this moment, one at a time, through one of the senses or the mind-door. Later one it can be understood that these are the dhammas that are dukkha. Nina. #103931 From: "Christine" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:53 pm Subject: Re: 'He goes the way he had to go - why should I repine?' .. Sutta or Jataka? christine_fo... Hello all, Here is some addtional information from E.W. Cowell's translation of the Uraga Jataka from Book V (p.107) Stories of the Buddha's Former Births: "Man quits his mortal frame," etc. This story the Master, while dwelling at Jetavana, told concerning a landowner whose son had died. The introductory story is just the same as that of the man who lost both his wife and father. Here too the Master in the same way went to the man's house, and after saluting him as he was seated, asked him saying, "Pray, Sir, are you grieving?" And on his replying, "Yes, Reverend Sir, ever since my son's death I grieve," he said, "Sir, verily that which is subject to dissolution is dissolved, and that which is subject to destruction is destroyed [note1], and this happens not to one man only, nor to one village merely, but in countles spheres, and in the three modes of existence, there is no creature that is not subject to death, nor is there any existing thing that is capable of abiding in the same condition. All beings are subject to death, and all compounds are subject to dissolution. But sages of old, when they lost a son, said, 'That which is subject to destruction is destroyed,' and grieved not." And hereupon at the man's request he related a story of the past. Note 1: Compare the story of Epictetus as given by Bacon, Advancement of Learning, i, 8. The philosopher one day saw a woman weeping for a broken pitcher, and next day saw another woman weeping over her dead son. Whereupon he said, "Heri vidi fragilem frangi, hodie vidi mortalem mori." metta Chris ~The trouble is that you think you have time~ ~It is not what happens to you in life that is important ... but what you do with it~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Suan wrote: Dear Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Howard, Alex, Freewaru, Phil, Chris F, Robert K, Sarah, Jon Chris F wrote: "I thought I'd post the whole of the Uraga Jataka for (probably, my) future reference: Jataka No. 354 Uraga-Jataka" So far, nobody has said anything about why the bodhisatta and his family members were able to behave the way they did. If someone could read the story carefully and came up with an answer to my above question, surprising scenarios would certainly emerge. -------------------- Han: The answer to your question is in the story posted by Chris, which is as follows. [They lived happily and affectionately together. The Bodhisatta thus admonished the other five; "According as ye have received, give alms, observe holy days, keep the moral law, dwell on the thought of death, be mindful f your mortal state. For in the case of beings like ourselves, death is certain, life uncertain: all existing things are transitory and subject to decay. Therefore take heed to your ways day and night." They readily accepted his teaching and dwelt earnestly on the thought of death.] Han: The Bodhisatta and family were able to behave the way they did because they were contemplating on mara.nasati day and night. #103932 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality belongs to which dhamma ? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Nina) - In a message dated 12/27/2009 1:24:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Nina, all, ------------------------------------------------ Inasmuch as you wrote "all," I'll put in my 2 cents. (See, it's much like inviting a vampire into one's home - a mistake better not made! LOL!) ------------------------------------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 25-dec-2009, om 20:25 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > To what Dhamma does any of 24 conditions belong? > ------ > N: They describe relationships between dhammas. Does relationship between dhammas exist or not? If it exists, then where? Which dhamma, citta, cetasika or maybe even rupa? -------------------------------------------------- The question assumes relations to be things. They are not. Speaking of relations is just that - speaking. When the occurrence of some type of q ualities or events are consistently associated in some way with the occurrence of other qualities or events, we speak of those phenomena as being "related in that way" and we speak of "there being a relation between or among them." It is just a manner of speaking. We speak of relations, but there are no things by that name. Mathematicians do the same thing, because it is convenient. They *define*, for example, "a ternary relation" to be a set of ordered triples. The "between relation" for real numbers is defined as the set of all ordered triples, (x, y, z), of real numbers, x, y, and z such that x < y and y < z. You see? they want to make the "between relation" into a thing, namely a particular set. This is mathematically convenient. So they use such a definition, but then they BELIEVE IT! ----------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > > A:Is "conditionality" a Dhamma? If so, which one? > ------ > N: See above. There are condioning dhammas, paccaya dhammas, and > conditioned dhammas, paccyupanna dhammas. > -------- > > > > A: Is arising, persistence, fall a Dhamma? > ------ > N: No, these are characteristics of dhammas. > -------- > > > > a: Is impermanence a Dhamma? > ------- > N: See above. > ---------- > > A: Does anicca belong to one or to continuity of Dhammas? > ---------- > N: Each conditioned dhamma has the characteristic of aniccaa. Cittas > arising and fall away and succeed one another and in so far you can > speak of a continuity. But they do not last. Is that what you mean? > Nina. --------------------------------------------------- None of conditionality, emptiness, impermanence, etc, etc is a thing. The terms are mere nominalizations. One dhamma may serve as condition for another, but there is no thing called conditionality. All dhammas are empty, but there is no emptiness. All conditioned dhammas impermanent, radically IMO, but there is no impermanence. Mere nominalizations all. ------------------------------------------------- If characteristics (such as anicca) exist, if so in which dhamma, citta, or cetasika? ------------------------------------------------- Anicca will not be found anywhere. It is simply so that nothing that arises lasts. The monster of reification must be slain!! ;-) ------------------------------------------------ With metta, Alex ============================ With metta, Howard /Empty, empty, empty, empty, empty!/ (The Catechism of Catechisms) #103933 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:37 pm Subject: Dhammapada Verse 212 and No. 354 Uraga-Jataka. hantun1 Dear Suan, Chris and others, No. 354 Uraga-Jataka is one of my favourite Jatakas. It is also connected with Dhammapada Verse 212. Verse 212. Piyato jaayatii soko, piyato jaayatii bhaya.m, Piyato vippamuttassa natthi soko kuto bhaya.m. Verse 212: Affection begets sorrow, affection begets fear. For him who is free from affection there is no sorrow; how can there be fear for him? -------------------- The Story of a Rich Householder While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (212), with reference to a rich householder who had lost his son. Once, a householder was feeling very distressed over the death of his son. He often went to the cemetery and wept there. Early one morning, the Buddha saw the rich householder in his vision. So, taking a bhikkhu along with him, the Buddha went to the house of that man. There, he asked the man why he was feeling so unhappy. Then, the man related to the Buddha about the death of his son and about the pain and sorrow he was suffering. To him the Buddha said, "My disciple, death does not occur only in one place. All beings that are born must die one day; indeed, life ends in death. You must ever be mindful of the fact that life ends in death. Do not imagine that only your beloved son is subject to death. Do not be so distressed or be so shaken. Sorrow and fear arise out of affection." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 212: Affection begets sorrow, affection begets fear. For him who is free from affection there is no sorrow; how can there be fear for him? At the end of the discourse, the rich householder attained Sotapatti Fruition. -------------------- Han: In the complete text of the Commentary of Dhammapada, the Buddha also told the rich householder, who had lost his son, the Uraga-Jataka. With metta, Han #103934 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:45 pm Subject: about "reification monster" truth_aerator Hi Howard, Nina, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Nina) - > -------------------------------------------------- > The question assumes relations to be things. They are not. Speaking of > relations is just that - speaking. When the occurrence of some type of qualities or events are consistently associated in some way with the > occurrence of other qualities or events, we speak of those phenomena as being > "related in that way" and we speak of "there being a relation between or among > them." It is just a manner of speaking. We speak of relations, but there are > no things by that name. But the citta are not things either. They are listed as ultimate dhammas, so why not relations which are not things as well be listed as equal ultimate dhammas? With metta, Alex #103936 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:08 pm Subject: My Conclusion upon contemplation Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as the abse dhammasaro Good friends all... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friends all, > > One of my favorite Dhammapada verses... verse 61: > > ... snip > > > > In the Dhammapada verse 61: > > > > "If, in your course, you don't meet > > your equal, your better, > > then continue your course, > > firmly, > > alone. > > There's no fellowship with fools." > > _______________________ > > > > Also Dhammapada Verses 328 - 330. > > > > > ... snip > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103937 From: Vince Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:00 pm Subject: Re[17]: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Dear Nina you wrote: > N:You indicated before that you are interested in practice. Sarah > writes just now about understanding the present reality. > Sarah: only. Like the simile of the chariot wheel in the Vism. - it's > circumference just touches the ground at one point. Only the present > moment exists. What's gone has completely gone, the future hasn't come yet.>> yes, everything what we do in order to understand is practice. As I have told you, in my case I'm interesting to know how to fit abhidhamma in the way. Although I'm also an acolyte of panna instead body postures, my background it's not abhidhamma but mainly mahayana. At first, some things have sound quite strange to me; as in example reading about the realization of truth as a progressive awareness of the falling and arising of dhammas, instead about a direct and sudden experience of anatta and emptiness. Across the time I'm understanding better where is the support of the abhidhammic explanation. Sarah points me to several posts in the Yahoo archives of this list (Useful_Posts_October_2009.htm) about the Time topic. These has been very useful to me, despite I don't have access to works like the Atthasaalinii. However, from the little what I have read, all confirm to me what I thought, although rectifying my first view about how to fit the abhidhamma in practice. > N: Thinking about time is thinking about ideas and it will not be > helpful for the growth of pa~n~naa. well but time is not an idea but a relation. It can be immediately grasped as another object. The idea about what it is, it will arise later in dependence of the grasping to past and future cittas. In this discussion, Time is not supported by itself but finally it is related with citta, then it can be realized as something delusional. When Time can be a condition support to keep the delusion about the nature of dhammas, the focus in Time can be of some profit >>V: I only ask: To what belongs proximity and contiguity?. To citta >> itself? > ------- > N: This condition is the relation pertaining to each citta that is > succeeded by the next citta. > --------- when there is only one citta at time, it implies that finally there is only one citta. There is not previous and next cita. There is not "each citta". There are not conditions neither successions. All that arises when deludedly a past-citta is maintained as something existent, and from here also arises the need and the delusion of a next citta. Conditions can be of many types but finally all them arises in the need to support the delusion mechanics. All relations between them are bonds with two phantoms named "past" and "future", both supported in non-existents past-citta and future-citta. >> V: Because in that case, we are establishing a relation between the >> present citta and a citta which belong to the past, non-existent now. >> There can be only one citta at a time. > ------- > N: Yes, only one citta at a time. But citta arises because of > different conditions. The falling away of the previous citta is the > condition of the arising of the succeeding one. >> --------- >> V: It is not quite similar to the reckoning of "it exists" >> appearing in >> the Sutta? > ------- > N: It is present. > ------- while there is only one citta at time, this citta cannot fall away neither arises, because the time still is not born. We leave the present when we start the delusion of a past citta and a future citta. The Time will arise as soon the phantom of a past citta start to arise. But this actual conscienciousness (and there are not two!) it's the only author of all that. Why she make this?. Why there is not a perpetual stabilization in the here-and-now and therefore maintenance of total freedom, deathless and brotherhood?. It is because kamma. Kamma is the seed and root of this situation. However, we know kamma it's just a cause-effect explanation, a relation, and therefore also a conventional truth. So we are again in the same trap of the problem of the delusional three cittas. In fact, again the only author is in the here-and-now. It is not kamma but the attachment to the same mechanics; that is the Ignorance. Ignorance of this unique conscienciousness from which arise all non-needed conditions and relations among non-existent "precedent" and "succeding" cittas. These cittas are not here and now, they are non-existent. A support of cause and effect is therefore also delusional. We are establishing laws, conditions and relations with phantoms while all these things are not here-and-now. Not other citta can fall away and not other citta can arise, and because there are not other cittas, this citta is named "citta" only in conventional terms. It has sense while there is delusion. Also we can name "consciousness", "suchness", or whatever. Whole abhidhamma it's an elucidation of the delusion mechanics (it is not news, I know. But it cannot be other thing as happen with the rest of Dhamma teachings). My doubt was to know why same Buddha or the arhants explain reality in these detailed terms as appears many times in Suttas or in Abhidhamma. I didn't understand why they don't teaches only anatta and the keeping of the present moment. Now I think their explanation arises not as a simple skillful mean but it must be understood as a real experience. Different of an awareness of anatta fabricated in the delusion land as another object to be grasped. Instead that, it is awareness of the mechanics of delusion and observance of the arising and falling away of this entire dream while there is stabilization in freedom and emptiness. Conscienciousness disappears in the sense that it is not more an object to be grasped. So it is useful as long this way can last, and now I understand it should be named and treated as "real", because the dream really arises and falls away, and denying such truth would be wrong. best, Vince. #103938 From: "colette" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks ksheri3 Good Morning charlest, Chaos Theory and Bifurcation Theory, wooooooooo nelly. I can see it comin', here comes that educated opinion of deviant magical behaviors being brought into "ACADEMIA" and put through a "'Cultured' Extruder" which spits out this prefab sausage. In particlar I am sick of the littany of negativity about what Alester Crowley was doin and what he did since that only substantiates the already VERY NEGATIVE attitutde toward a person seeking enlightenment and/or release from the Wheel of Samsara. If they, the academics, have to display such contempt please choose to use a CORPORATE EXECUTIVES as the model instead of a student of the mysteries i.e. if they'll do it about Crowley then they'll do it about any of us. Hopefully we'll stay off that illusionary behavior and we'll stay with our jovial parley. If we do get into Chaos Theory and/or Bifurcation Theory, lets just remember that I'm an infant in the study of both theories. I've not finished this ploddingly terrible paper called "THEORY THEORY TO THE MAX" but if that is the purpose of writing the paper well, then the paper had to be written for the academic student as the audience. Crowley had an influence on EVERYBODY not just a small community of people, anyway. charlest:> > C: Trust you have a full palette. > colette: Thank you for allowing me the chance to have a palatte. I've noticed that a characteristic within the typical robot of the Bourgeois. I have to go clean a little around the house. This, I promise you will be returned to at some point today. toodles, colette <...> #103939 From: "colette" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now ksheri3 Hi Sarah, I guess we're looking at the same thing but we're on our own seperate trips.Lets go w/ a hypothetical: the experiment is only being performed for the sole purpose of manifesting a reality since any and all reality has been put forth, by people, to not matter since it is not real. Under this prerequisite we have to pressume that thisreality actually requires proof that it does exist before we can venture out into the desolate land of illusion, delusion, and complete fantasy. I am an OPERATIVE OCCULTIST thus I practice. In theory, practicing is a form of belief in or faith in, for instance, "Divine Meaning". My appreciation for the MIND ONLY SCHOOL, and or YOGACHARA is entirely based upon the premise that they have come to the conclusion that it actually is reasonable to conclude that, for instance, any material can be transmuted into gold or this hypothetical PHILOSOPHER'S STONE, etc. which you allude to by using Jaq Derrida's favorite object, the "TABLE", as an example of suggesting the premise of ILLUSION(S). Pardon me, I'm just begining to consider how I can approach the difference in meanings between the Buddhist phraseology of an UNCONSCIOUS and a SUBCONSCIOUS when in my Western education I've learned that the same two terms basically apply to the same thing: while Sigmund Fraud runs about suggesting the SUBCONSCIOUS and the REPRODUCTIVE OBSESSION HE HAS/HAD W/ SEX ENTIRELY along comes CArl Gustav Jung with a far more reasonable explanation in theories of INSTINCT, which leads us into the debate in the Buddhist community about the actuality of an "alaya-vijnana", storehouse consciousness. The Buddhist meanings and definitions of UNCONSCIOUS and SUBCONSCIOUS are strikingly different, ESSPECIALLY IN THE OPERATIVE AND PRACTICING FUNCTION OF THE TWO WORDS. Now you can drink hemlock just because they tell ya it's a fine after dinner drink and you'll behave in that way accepting the results for falling victim to the joke that somebody may have enjoyed playing on you, but I don't think I will nor would I drink the glass of hemlock simply because of the generosity of some schmuck that had/has ulterior motivation for being so kind as to give me a glass of liquid to drink. Take the example of countless alchemists who used to actually believe that drinking liquid mercury was healthy, or the alchemists that had no clue as to the chemicals they cooked up in their labs didn't emit or exude toxic fumes. I, in the role of an alchemist, would not enter into a situation of experimentation mixing and/or cooking chemicals w/o first knnowing a little background on what I'm cooking. Even Jimmy Page told me, in 1982, Phoenox AR, at the Playboy club, told me at lunch one day that (paraphrasing) "You mix dangerous chemicals" which I agree to, but I do it knowingly and intentionally when it serves the purpose or requires the purpose to perform what it is that I'm performing. I appreciate Supertramp's view of it better, though: "can you stick your hand in your head, oh-no" since they view the entire operation as a folly but such is the case in Western societies that are addicted to ORGANIZED RELIGION. I have been in many, many, operating rooms and hospitals in my life, and it has always been the resultant phenomena for my own life and life style, CHOICES therefore I am certain that things exist HOWEVER my Near Death Experience was so traumatic that it left it's mark on me in the form of my ACTUAL KNOWING THAT SOMETHING EXISTS OUT THERE IN THE ETHER OF THE COSMOS, and it exists here in the space I'm at in this very second and the space that you are at in this very second BUT I CANNOT PROVE IT TO MY OWN CONSCIOUSNESS ENOUGH SO THAT I NOT STUDY HOW THIS HALLUCINATION or REALITY GOT THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE AND IS THERE NOW. I am simply suggesting that a state of consciousness can and/or does exist where the mind has the ability to control that which is exterior. I feel that TANTRA is a potentially valuable vehicle to try to use as the means to an end. THUS I maintain my meditation and process as I work through Tariya and the extraordinarily difficult state of consciousness called YOGA NIDRA in an attempt to verify that things actually do or do not exist. Thank you for finally reaching a point where you could tell me what you actually thought or what your position actually is/was. Now, lets get back to pondering charlest's reply to me. toodles, colette <...> #103940 From: "colette" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks ksheri3 Hi charlest, My pallet? I immediately got rid of that infant palette that society manufactures robots to accept since it only has BLACK and WHITE and is your typical SUBURBAN world of "VANILLA ONLY". It's like The Not Ready For Prime Time Players once depicted as "Pepsi, no coke" and the joking made of immigrants to America. I even enjoy mixing my own paints. You offer a wide range and require me to use a bigger palette. I wish I had a full plate to go with my full palett, however, even I can't feed myself well enough in these economic conditions, but I've also been going to soup kitchens since the early 1980s so I'm used to the feeling of HUNGER. I'm desensitized. > > C: Hmmmm, playfulness??? Cheeky is closer... > > colette: oh no, a stick in the mud, huh? Do you possess a "rapier whit" or does it possess you? Hmmmm, "cheeky" uh oh, are you going to be "condascending" to me? C: Well, with all the sliders and shadow people at this momentous year tyme, let us just say the experience was on a parallel universe... let us leave id at that; id is safer... > colette: lets apply the "recentcy effect" and look at the word "safe(r)" What is safe or what does it mean to be safe? ZOIKS, "parallel universes", huh, one of those nano scientists involved in Quantum Physics. GREAT VIEW AND APPLICATIONS ARE LIMITLESS. BUT THAT WILL HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL AFTER I CLEAN THE KITCHEN. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend colette, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > > > Dear charlest, > > > > I must admit, you given my consciousness a bit of a play here. At first, when you replied to my brashness in warm tones I figured you to be of the "CHAOS MAGICIAN" types since you had familiar behaviors. I couldn't figure you out, still can't but now that I've been reading some of your self-written bio... <...> #103941 From: "colette" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now ksheri3 Hi charlest, Who? Me? Diablo? I think not. I was hoping that I could gain status in the lineage of Muerta rather than a mere "diablo". How could you leave out that all important PREFIX to Diablo? Isn't there a way to honor a "devil" of higher status in the Spanish language? For instance I've heard, many times, in the Spanish spoken "prayer" before we get a meal at the San Lucas mission on North Ave., that the Spanish leader tends toward using the terminology "seniore" quite often in his devotional, Yet, I have also heard of certain holidays, when, for instance, in Central America, the people refer to this deity in the form of Don or San Muerta and not "seniore". <...> I've enjoyed the opportunity to speak with you again and the chance to have fun actually looking at things as they are. I look forward to further discussions although I was fascinated by a recent rash of entries concerning the actual possession that NAMA's have over material things. Dieter, Howard, Nina, have recently been involved in such a LUCY IN THE SKY WITH DIAMONDS type of trip, I've noticed in the msg board; further research showed me that it was you who put conditions on this reality in notes to yourself. toodles, colette <...> #103942 From: "colette" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality belongs to which dhamma ? ksheri3 Hi Howard Luv your reply below! Well said. INDOCTRINATION? And since when did you become aware that "things" are or can be INDOCTRINATED? I have pondered your opinion on such magnificent communities like that which Jim JOnes gave humanity, in the form of THE PEOPLES TEMPLE, but then again, I might step on some toes that worship on the reality that did and does exist in communities like THE PEOPLES TEMPLE or any fraternity/sorority, gang, mob, etc. They all possess this quality and characteristic to INDOCTRINATE that which is exterior so that it could somehow become interior through their powers of delusion which have them as so powerful in the first place. Is there a difference between the Bourgeiosie and the middle class, or a suburbanite, etc? They are all the same and have to be treated with the same rules without discrimination. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Nina) - > > In a message dated 12/27/2009 1:24:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Dear Nina, all, > ------------------------------------------------ > Inasmuch as you wrote "all," I'll put in my 2 cents. (See, it's much > like inviting a vampire into one's home - a mistake better not made! LOL!) > ------------------------------------------------ > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > > Dear Alex, > > Op 25-dec-2009, om 20:25 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > > > To what Dhamma does any of 24 conditions belong? > > ------ > > N: They describe relationships between dhammas. > > Does relationship between dhammas exist or not? If it exists, then where? > Which dhamma, citta, cetasika or maybe even rupa? > -------------------------------------------------- > The question assumes relations to be things. They are not. Speaking of > relations is just that - speaking. When the occurrence of some type of q > ualities or events are consistently associated in some way with the > occurrence of other qualities or events, we speak of those phenomena as being > "related in that way" and we speak of "there being a relation between or among > them." It is just a manner of speaking. We speak of relations, but there are > no things by that name. > Mathematicians do the same thing, because it is convenient. They > *define*, for example, "a ternary relation" to be a set of ordered triples. The > "between relation" for real numbers is defined as the set of all ordered > triples, (x, y, z), of real numbers, x, y, and z such that x < y and y < z. > You see? they want to make the "between relation" into a thing, namely a > particular set. This is mathematically convenient. So they use such a > definition, but then they BELIEVE IT! > ----------------------------------------------- <...> #103943 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:14 pm Subject: Re: No gun, no bullet dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > I was thinking today about violence. > I listened to Khun sujin say to someone who had being talking > about murder. She said: "There was no person, no gun, and no > bullet" then she said words to the effect that we take murder as > being worse than accidental death but both are simply the result > of conditions. She said something like even when we are being > shot and killed that panna can understand deeply in this way. > The more there is understanding of a moment as a moment the > easier it becomes to understand this. There is no self in a > moment. Every citta is of one of 4 types of jati - either > kusala, akusala, kiriya or vipaka - but no self anywhere; and no > bullet, gun or killer too. How well do we understand this? > The Buddha once pointed to some people who were collecting > sticks and leaves for a fire. He asked the monks if they felt > concern or attachment to those sticks and leaves that were going > to be burned. The monks said "of course not, they do not belong > to us". .."so it is monks, and the khandas(vedana, citta, > sankhara, rupa, sanna) do not belong to you either". This is the > truth - and this is what we must see more and more clearly as > the path continues. > Do we think that citta is something we can control or that it is > good when we feel calm? This is clinging, and it is just as > foolish as if we were to cling to sticks and leaves; it is > because we believe that citta is self, or sankhara is self that > we have such ideas. > Upasena, sariputtas younger brother was bitten by a snake. He > asked the other monks to put him outside before he died. The > monks commented that they saw no change in Upasena- in mind or > body. This is because he didn't take citta for self, or body for > self, or sankhara for self, or vedan or sanna. And there and > then he died. > Are we concerned when citta changes for the worse? This is > because we are fooled by the majicians trick. (remember Gayans > quote last month). If we are injured will panna arise and know > that rupa is not us, that it is like a "lump of foam"? The > painful feeling that comes at the same time is like a bubble. > Sanna is like a mirage, sankhara is like a 'log of a plantain > tree'- no heart. > WE might think that we will understand all this later, after we > get enlightened, or next life. However, there is only now. For > deep panna to arise there must be many conditions - we have to > begin to understand this moment. Are the colours appearing now > "something", or is it understood at some level that there is > nothing except visible object appearing to condition seeing? > Seeing is only citta, a majicians trick. Visible object is only > a lump of foam. > Nina wrote to me yesterday how urgent it is to develop > satipatthana. It is true: the moments flash by, but we are so > neglectful. We want to be aware 'when the time is right'. We > think we will be aware when we are calm, or relaxed, or after we > study more, or when concentration is stronger, or after we keep > sila, or when we are not busy, or when we meet with khun sujin. > This is just thinking and all the time countless moments go > past, lost to understanding. > Sati and panna can only arise when the right conditions > coincide but knowing about the urgency can be a condition too. > And understanding that nothing at all is self is a basic > understanding that should be very firm intellectually so that > deeper insight can occur. > If tommorow we are seriously injured will we think this is a > trajedy? Or will we know that a moment is just a moment - no > self - it can be understood. > Robert > > __________________________________________________ > We all truly believe the following: If tomorrow we are seriously injured will we think this is a tragedy? Or will we know that a moment is just a moment - no self... peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103944 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:56 pm Subject: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. sarahprocter... Dear Good Friends All, 1O years on in Samsara....... During this time we've all experienced gains and losses, ups and downs of small and great magnitude. We've all seen (and shared) the value of reflecting on and understanding the Buddha's Teachings. More sobering reflections: "If, O monks, three things [tayo dhammaa] were not to be found in the world, the Tathaagata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, would not appear in the world, nor would the Dhamma and Discipline proclaimed by him shed its light over the world. What are these three things? Birth, old age and death [jaati, jaraa, mara.na]. But since these three things are to be found in the world, the Tathaagata appears in the world, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, and the Dhamma and Discipline [dhamma vinaya] proclaimed by him sheds its light over the world."* S: And this is the reason we're able to meet here, to discuss the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha, to shed some light on the way out of Samsara. "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon birth, old age and death. What are these three? Greed, hatred and delusion [raaga, dosa, moha]: without abandoning these three things one is unable to abandon birth, old age and death." S: And so it is, with deep appreciation and respect, that I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed on DSG in however small a way. Your reflections, questionings, quotes and disagreements have made it possible for us to all to consider these unwholesome roots (and their opposities) together, along with the way to abandoning them: "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon greed, hatred and delusion. They are: personality view, sceptical doubt and clinging to rules and vows. [sakkaayadi.t.thi, vicikiccha, siilabbataparaamaasa]." "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon personality view, sceptical doubt and clinging to rules and vows. They are improper attention, pursuing wrong ways and mental lassitude [ayonisomanasikaara, kummaggasevana, cetaso liinatta]." "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon improper attention, the pursuing of wrong ways and mental lassitude. They are: unmindfulness, lack of clear comprehension, and mental distraction [Mu.t.thasacca, asampaja~n~na, cetaso vikkhepa]." "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon unmindfulness, lack of clear comprehension and mental distraction. They are: disinterest in seeing noble ones, disinterest in listening to their teachings and a fault-finding mentality [adassanakamyata ariyadhammassa, asotukamyata, upaarambhacittata (pts:"a carping disposition", i.e looking for flaws)]." S: When we consider and appreciate the Truths as understood by the noble ones, we see and listen to them, no matter where we live, no matter how long it is since the Buddha and his main disciples lived. "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon lack of interest in seeing noble ones, disinterest in listening to their teachings and a fault-finding mentality. They are: restlessness, lack of restraint and immorality. [uddhacca, asa.mvara, dussiilya]" "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon restlessness, lack of self-control and immorality. They are: lack of faith, unfriendliness and laziness. [assaddhiya, avada~n~nuta, kosajja]" "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon lack of faith, unfriendliness and laziness. They are: disrespect, stubborness and bad friendships. [anaadariya, dovacassata, paapamittata]" "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon disrespect, stubborness and bad friendships. They are: shamelessness, lack of moral dread and negligence. [ahirika, anottappa, pamaada]" S: Thank you all for your support and for all the good friendships and wonderful reminders we've received here. May we continue to encourage each other to see the value and meaning of these deep, deep words: "There is a person, monks, who is conscientious [hirii], scrupulous [ottaapii] and diligent [appamatto]. Being diligent, he can abandon disrespect [anaadariya], stubborness [dovacassata] and bad friendships [paapamittata]. Having noble friends [kalyaa.namitto], he can abandon lack of faith [assaddhiya], unfriendliness [avada~n~nuta] and laziness [kosajja]. Being energetic [aaraddhaviiriyo], he can abandon restlessness [uddhacca], lack of restraint [asa.mvara] and immorality [dussiilya]. Being virtuous [siilavaa], he can abandon disinterest in seeing noble ones [ariyaana adassanakamyata], disinterest in listening to their teachings [ariyadhammassa asotukamyata], and a fault-finding mentality [upaarambhacittata]. Not being a fault-finder [anupaarambhacitto], he can abandon unmindfulness [mu.t.thasacca], lack of clear comprehension [asampaja~n~na] and mental distraction [cetaso vikkhepa]. Having an undistracted mind [avikkhittacitto], he can abandon improper attention [ayonisomanasikaara], pursuit of wrong ways [kummaggasevana] and mental lassitude [cetaso liinatta]. Being without mental lassitude [aliinacitto], he can abandon personality view [sakkaayadi.t.thi], sceptical doubt [vicikiccha] and clinging to rules and vows [siilabbataparaamaasa]. Being free from doubt [avicikiccho], he can abandon greed, hatred and delusion [raaga, dosa, moha]. Having abandoned greed, hatred and delusion, he can abandon birth, old age and death. [jaati, jaraa, mara.na]." *("Birth, Old Age and Death", AN 10s, 76, transl.by B.Bodhi in "Numerical Discourses of the Buddha".) S: While we have this precious opportunity, may the wisdom develop which will eventually abandon birth, old age and death and so bring final release from the shackles of Samsara. May we all learn to appreciate what these fine qualities, beginning with hirii, ottaapa and appamatto are at this very moment. With very best wishes to all for a wise and content New Year, no matter what difficulties you may face. Remember that your contributions shared here with us all are greatly welcomed, however brief or infrequent! Metta Sarah ===== #103945 From: "Christine" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:44 pm Subject: Luminous, monks, is the mind ... christine_fo... Hello all, I have come across this translation (with notes) by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I tried to search DSG website but yahoo seems to be trying to implement a new search system which DSG isn't a part of, and had no luck. I tried to read the Useful Posts couldn't find a clear answer all in one thread. I hope someone will care to comment on his notes below, and what is understood from an Abhidhamma perspective. AN 1.49-52 Pabhassara Sutta: Luminous ( translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu) "Luminous, monks, is the mind.1 And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2} Note 1. This statement has engendered a great deal of controversy over the centuries. The commentary maintains that "mind" here refers to the bhavanga-citta, the momentary mental state between periods when the mental stream adverts to objects, but this statement raises more questions than it answers. There is no reference to the bhavanga-citta or the mental stream in any of the suttas (they appear first in an Abhidhamma treatise, the Patthana); and because the commentaries compare the bhavanga-citta to deep sleep, why is it called luminous? And why would the perception of its luminosity be a prerequisite for developing the mind? And further, if "mind" in this discourse means bhavanga-citta, what would it mean to develop the bhavanga-citta? Another interpretation equates the luminosity of the mind with the "consciousness without feature," desribed as "luminous" in MN 49 and DN 11, but this interpretation also has problems. According to MN 49, that consciousness partakes of nothing in the describable world, not even the "Allness of the All," so how could it possibly be defiled? And, because it is not realized until the goal of the practice is reached, why would the perception of its luminosity be a prerequisite for developing the mind? And again, if "mind" here means consciousness without feature, how could the sutta talk of its development? A more reasonable approach to understanding the statement can be derived from taking it in context: the luminous mind is the mind that the meditator is trying to develop. To perceive its luminosity means understanding that defilements such as greed, aversion, or delusion are not intrinsic to its nature, are not a necessary part of awareness. Without this understanding, it would be impossible to practice. With this understanding, however, one can make an effort to cut away existing defilements, leaving the mind in the stage that MN 24 calls "purity in terms of mind." This would correspond to the luminous level of concentration described in the standard simile for the fourth jhana: "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness." From this state it is possible to develop the discernment that not only cuts away existing defilements but also uproots any potential for them to ever arise again. Only in the stages of Awakening that follow on those acts of discernment would "consciousness without feature" be realized." metta Chris ~The trouble is that you think you have time~ ~It is not what happens to that is important .. it is what you do with it~ #103946 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:53 pm Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 13. nilovg Dear friends, The monk may try to impress others by his deportment. We read in the Path of Purification (I, 70): Here someone of evil wishes, a prey to wishes, eager to be admired, (thinking) Thus people will admire me, composes his way of walking, composes his way of lying down; he walks studiedly, stands studiedly, sits studiedly, lies down studiedly; he walks as though concentrated, stands, sits, lies down as though concentrated; and he is one who meditates in public The Path of Purification explains that desire for requisites can motivate speech with akusala citta. We read (I, 72) about different kinds of unwholesome speech: Ingratiating chatter is endearing chatter repeated again and again without regard to whether it is in conformity with truth and Dhamma. Flattery is speaking humbly, always maintaining an attitude of inferiority. Bean-soupery is resemblance to bean soup; for just as when beans are being cooked, only a few do not get cooked, the rest get cooked, so too the person in whose speech only a little is true, the rest being false, is called a bean soup; his state is bean- soupery. Not only monks, also laypeople can be insincere in their deportment and speech in order to obtain something desirable. We should check whether our speech is bean-soupery. We may to some extent speak what is true and to some extent what is not true. We may believe that there is no harm in bean-soupery, but we accumulate at such a moment the tendency to lying. The monk should train himself in virtue concerning the requisites. He should use them without greed and reflect wisely on their use. We read in the Path of Purification (I, 85) about the use of almsfood: Reflecting wisely, he uses alms food neither for amusement nor for intoxication nor for smartening nor for embellishment, but only for the endurance and continuance of this body, for the ending of discomfort, and for assisting the life of purity Food is bound to be an object of attachment and it can also be an object of aversion. If one reflects wisely on the use of food there is kusala citta. It is natural that one enjoys delicious food, but if one remembers that food is like a medicine for the body, one will be less inclined to overeating, which is the cause of laziness. It is the monks duty to reflect wisely on the use of the requisites, but also for laypeople there can be conditions for wise consideration of the things they use in daily life. ****** Nina. #103947 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:24 pm Subject: DSG Searches sarahprocter... Dear Chris & all, --- On Mon, 28/12/09, Christine wrote: >I have come across this translation (with notes) by Thanissaro Bhikkhu*. I tried to search DSG website but yahoo seems to be trying to implement a new search system which DSG isn't a part of, and had no luck. .... S: You may have just been unlucky when you tried. I've used the yahoo search function on DSG a few times recently and have found it working well. For others less familiar with how it works, try these steps: 1. Open DSG website (if you're reading mail in a personal account): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/ 2. Under the picture of the lotus flowers, it says "Search". Key in a few words, such as "thanissaro luminous defilements" or "jataka field death" (as I used the other day) 3. Click 'search' and in the thanissaro search, 24 messages appear. If you're in the 'individual message' section, there is a one-line summary higlighting the words in the search. 4. Either click on any of these messages or narrow the search down further either by adding extra words in 'Search' or using the 'Advanced search' feature to the right of the search box. **** If you draw a blank, it is usually, I find, because there is an error in the words put in the search, such as a typo, or there are no matches, or Yahoo is doing some work on the system. Metta Sarah * Chris, I'll look forward to looking at the comments (and any responses) later when I have more time. ======== #103948 From: "Christine" Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:32 pm Subject: Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. christine_fo... Hello Sarah, Thank you Sarah and John for beginning this website, for maintaining and improving it, and for your support and patience over the years. Thank you for the Good Friends in the Dhamma I have met through this list, for the inspiriation to come to Bangkok to be in the presence of Tan Ajahn, for the depth of knowledge and understanding of many members like Nina, and for the Pilgrimages and companionship I have shared with you all. I've slipped away a few times - but always find myself returning to Dhammastudygroup for honest, ethical, supportive Dhamma Friends. As the Blessed One told Ven. Ananda about Admirable Friendship: - "Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path." (As AN 8.54 points out, this means not only associating with good people, but also learning from them and emulating their good qualities.) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.002.than.html metta and respect, Chris ~ The trouble is that you think you have time ~ ~ It is not what happens to you in life that is important .. it is what you do with it ~ #103949 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. nilovg Dear Sarah and Jon, I join in with Christine: Op 28-dec-2009, om 8:32 heeft Christine het volgende geschreven: > Thank you Sarah and John for beginning this website, for > maintaining and improving it, and for your support and patience > over the years. ------- N: Thank you Sarah for all the text quotes today that are very appropriate. Without this list we would not have an opportunity to ask questions and have Dhamma discussions, and hear Kh sujin's voice on the audios which were also for both of you a lot of work to edit. Anumodana, Nina. #103950 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:25 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (316, 13-14), and commentary, part 1. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 13. Walshe: DN 33.2.1(13) 'Five dangers to the immoral through lapsing from morality: DN 33 1.23. ----------- N: The co refers to the mahaaparinibbaanasutta for the exposition on loss of siila and gain of siila. We read in the co. to this sutta (Yang-Gyu An, The Buddhas Last Days, p. 53) about the disadvantages of the absence of good siila which pertains to renouncers (monks and nuns) and to layfollowers: <23. One of bad conduct (dussiilo) means one with no moral conduct. .... For by whatever skill a householder makes his living, whether it be by agriculture or trade, if he is negligent, killing living beings and so on, he cannot make a success of it at the appropriate time; then his capital is lost. If he kills living beings at the time when killing is prohibited and takes what is not given, and so forth, he incurs a great loss of wealth by way of punishment...> The co. elaborates on bad reputation. We read about being without confidence when one is in an assembly: The co states that he sees the four evil destinies and becomes frightened. He has an unhappy rebirth. (to be continued) -------- Nina. #103951 From: sīlānanda Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Luminous, monks, is the mind ... silananda_t Hi all, A note here on the subject that can be directly experienced: http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books/Ajahn_Brahm_The_Jhanas.htm#NIKAYA mahakaruna, silananda On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Christine wrote: <..> > AN 1.49-52 Pabhassara Sutta: Luminous ( > translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu) > > "Luminous, monks, is the mind.1 And it is defiled by incoming defilements." > {I,v,9} <...> #103952 From: sīlānanda Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:20 am Subject: The Five Mental Hindrances & Their Conquest ... silananda_t Hi Dhammafarers, For your conquest. mahakaruna, silananda The Five Mental Hindrances & Their Conquest Selected Texts from the Pali Canon and the Commentaries Compiled and translated by Nyanaponika Thera http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books7/Nyanaponika_Five_Mental_Hindrances_n_Th\ eir_Conquest.pdf #103953 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:38 am Subject: Re: Re[17]: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, I will just touch on a few points. Op 28-dec-2009, om 2:00 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > > when there is only one citta at time, it implies that finally there is > only one citta. There is not previous and next cita. There is not > "each citta". There are not conditions neither successions. > -------- N: The present citta is conditioned by the past. Our life is a series of cittas, arising and falling away. The dying-consciousness falls away and it is succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness. The Visuddhimagga explains: these are neither the same nor other. Just as curd comes from milk. There is a connection with the past. The Buddha teaches us about the four noble truths. The first one is dukkha, and this has several meanings, but the deepest meaning is : the five khandhas are dukkha. The five khandhas are past, present, future as is explained in the Tipi.taka. ------- I quote from Kh Sujin's Cambodian talks: -------- N:Thus, seeing now or visible object now falls away, it is dukkha. They are no refuge isnce they fall away. In the Abhidhamma, in the book of the Pa.t.thaana it is explained that there are conditions and succession of cittas. Past, present and future is no delusion. Think of death and rebirth. And also: each one of us is born with different accumulated inclinations, good and bad, different talents and skills. Where do these come from? From the past, when these arose and were accumulated from one citta to the next one. The Abhidhamma also teaches about latent tendencies, tendencies lying dormant in each citta that have not been eradicated yet and can condition the arising of akusala at a certain moment. Perhaps this can help you to see that the past nor the future are phantoms. ------- Nina. #103954 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammapada Verse 212 and No. 354 Uraga-Jataka. nilovg Dear Han, Op 27-dec-2009, om 23:37 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Verse 212: Affection begets sorrow, affection begets fear. For him > who is free from affection there is no sorrow; how can there be > fear for him? > > At the end of the discourse, the rich householder attained > Sotapatti Fruition. ------- N: Here we see that he did not merely think: I have to die one day. Then there is still 'I'. He went through all the stages of insight, including realizing the momentary impermanence of naama and ruupa. In becoming a sotaapanna his outlook on life radically changed. He would still have sorrow, but it would help him to know that whatever he experiences is only a conditioned dhamma. So long as we are ordinary people we can be overcome by sadness, don't you think? How do you see this? You must have experienced many losses during your life. Nina. #103955 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'He goes the way he had to go - why should I repine?' .. Sutta or Jataka? gazita2002 hallo Nina, thank you, yes very good reminder - death of every moment, not just citta arising and falling away but rupa also arising and falling. Constant reminders of this fact must surely be beneficial...... patience, courage and good cheer, azita > Dear Azita, > Op 26-dec-2009, om 9:20 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > > > He went on to remind us that our breathing in and out is so taken > > for granted bec we never know when will be out last exhale. > --------- > N: Kh sujin would say: just like now. Even now there is dying, citta > falls away and is succeeded by a next citta. Kha.nika mara.na. This > is better than thinking about our last breath. > > Nina. > #103956 From: "raj1mongia2" Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:43 am Subject: Role of spirituality in generating workplace happiness raj1mongia2 Hi All, Please post your views on "role of spirituality in generating workplace happiness". Regards Rajesh 9899930671 #103957 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammapada Verse 212 and No. 354 Uraga-Jataka. hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: Here we see that he did not merely think: I have to die one day. Then there is still 'I'. He went through all the stages of insight, including realizing the momentary impermanence of naama and ruupa. In becoming a sotaapanna his outlook on life radically changed. He would still have sorrow, but it would help him to know that whatever he experiences is only a conditioned dhamma. Han: I have no disagreement with the above statement. -------------------- Nina: So long as we are ordinary people we can be overcome by sadness, don't you think? How do you see this? You must have experienced many losses during your life.. Han: I am very passionate by nature, and I have a very strong attachment to my dear ones. It may sound strange: I am not afraid of dying myself, but it hits me very hard if I have to part with the dear ones. I know it is not logical. Don't I have to part with the dear ones when I die? My parents died just after WWII before I knew what sadness was. I just came out of the atrocities of the war and my young mind was hardened and callous. I was ready to kill or get killed. If I am an anvil, let them strike me. If I am a hammer I will strike without mercy. That sort of thing. Madness, maybe. Now, I am not strong anymore, physically and mentally. When I read Dhammapada Verse 212 I am moved. When I read Uraga-Jataka I am moved. I am moved by the answer by the mother in the story. She said: “Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go”. I had not asked my children to come but they came. My family will not ask me to leave, but I will leave. It is all very sad, Nina. I only hope I will see the Dhamma light before I die. Respectfully, Han #103958 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Eric) - > > In a message dated 7/25/04 1:35:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > > Hi Eric, > > > > Welcome to DSG. You wrote: > > -------------------- > > >Go to metta forest monastery and see and ask Thanisarro yourself. > > You can even call him on the phone. > > > ------------------- > > > > Thanks, but I think I understand Ven Thanissaro's perspective: he > > has stated it clearly enough on ATI. It would be helpful if, for > > the record, he were to answer the question, "Is there, ultimately, a > > self; yes or no?" However, he has already said that question should > > be answered with silence. > > > > My point in raising this issue is that others " Howard for one, and > > perhaps you too " are not hearing the message TB is trying to > > convey. You are assuming he does not believe in self. However, he > > would not thank you for making that assumption: in his opinion, > > anatta is not about the existence or non-existence of self but > > rather, it is a strategy for calming the mind (ridding it of self- > > conceit). > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ken, I agree with the assessment of yours in the last sentence after > the colon, but tht does not imply that he secretly believes in "self". > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > He is not being dishonest or evasive: to the contrary, he is making > > his point as plainly as he can. Other people (including me until > > recently) are putting words in his mouth. > > > > ----------------------- > > E: >The other thing to keep in mind with any teacher or teaching is > > the 2 different ways they talk or refer to 'reality'. Relatively > > there is a 'you' and 'me' but Ultimately there is not. If you do not > > have a good grasp of these 2 different languages, you are bound to > > confuse the 2. > > > ---------------------- > > > > Yes, I agree entirely: conventionally we say there is a self (man, > > woman, animal etc.) but, as Dhamma students, we know there is > > ultimately no self. The venerable bhikkhu disagrees and that is his > > privilege. > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It could be that he disagrees, but I have not been convinced of that. > ------------------------------------------ > Just so long as we all know where we stand. :-)> > > > > Kind regards, > > Ken H > > > > > ========================== > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > > > C: After a careful review of several days, my comments? 1. Much a do about no thing... 2. What does the word "strategy" mean? To me: "A strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal. The word strategy has military connotations, because it derives from the Greek word for general. Strategy is distinct from tactics. In military terms, tactics is concerned with the conduct of an engagement while strategy is concerned with how different engagements are linked. In other words, how a battle is fought is a matter of tactics: the terms that it is fought on and whether it should be fought at all is a matter of strategy. Military strategy is the overarching, long-term plan of operations that will achieve the political objectives of the nation. It is part of the four levels of warfare: political goals, strategy, operations, and tactics." Or, briefly, to this cheeky, dastardly, incorrigible, mangy, never-do-well, ole-opinionated Texican: ...strategy is the overarching, long-term plan of operations that will achieve the ... objectives of the [not-self]. 3. Excerpt from the Sutta Jaliya: "And the same with the secondthe thirdthe fourth jhana" "The mind bends and tends towards knowledge and vision. Now, of one who thus knows and thus sees, is it proper to say: "The soul is the same as the body," or "The soul is different from the body?" [The historic Buddha] "It is not, friend." He knows: "There is nothing further here." Now of one who thus knows and thus sees, is it proper to say: "The soul is the same as the body," or "The soul is different from the body?" "It is not, friend." "But I thus know and see, and I do not say that the soul is either the same as, or different from the body." Thus the Lord [historic Buddha] spoke, and the two wanderers rejoiced at his words. oOo peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103959 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Don't Later Fall Into Regret. This Our Message To You. dhammasaro Good friend colette, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Good Morning charlest and Sarah, > > > > Sarah: > > "Practice jhana, monk" - the Pali actually means "develop samatha and > vipassana". > > C: I do not understand. "Jhana" is not part of meditation? > > > colette: So, charlest, is it true that you cognize Jhana as nothing more than a RESULTANT PHENOMENA from the act of MEDITATION? > > Allow me to apply my obscure observation of the jhana experience. Jhana is a descriptive word to relay, to participants/practitioners, the experience that one meditator obtained then found that other meditators could obtain this same condition. One of the aspects of MEDITATION is to train the mind to maintain a focus, to remain in a constant condition without deviation. > > It is typical for practitioners/participants in the practice of meditation to have a desire to return to a "pleasurable experience" so they trod the path they traveled previously so as to make a BEATEN PATH. Once the path is "well trodden" the condition of jhana can be a norm that exists in all forms of "consciousness" THUS the condition of jhana may then be a plateau, a level playing field upon which future operations can be devised, planned, etc. > > Any person can achieve the state of JHANA. Jhana is there for any person to partake of. Jhana is not a resultant phenomena that only exists under the robotics of a "guided meditation", as an example. > > I know it's tricky but you have to set aside your Western psychology and mental training to allow the Jhana consciousness to exist on it's own without your manifestation. Your experience, at this stage of the game in your experience with Buddhism is of the dogmatism from the process psychology of manuals. Release this clinging to the dogma and the thought that Buddhism is dogmatic: realize that your eyes are trained to only see DOGMA and to react to only dogma. <...>Let go of that clinging to the process psychology you were created in and by. Allow jhana to exist outside of yourself so that you can observe jhana in it's own state of consciousness, without your input. > > so, to re-iterate: > > C: I do not understand. "Jhana" is not part of meditation? > > colette: Yes you do understand. You simply observe the OBSCURATIONS that you have manifested and lack the ability to actually observe Jhana in it's own state. > > Jhana is part of the meditation process. Jhana can be experienced without meditation, though. > > To those that practice meditation regularly, Jhana is a normal condition. You have to now find out for yourself what the Jhana-ic experience ACTUALLY IS for you. How does this experience relate to the past teachings of the experience; what does it mean to you; etc, and you will find that Sarah was practically as close as I am in that Jhana is a form of VIPASSANA, then you'll see that VIPASSANA and Jhana both actually exist OUTSIDE OF YOURSELF and you can observe them both. Guess what? Since it is EXTERNAL it can be made or re-made to be INTERNAL. Then you'll have to decide whether or not the bliss manifested within you actually is VIPASSANA: IS "INSIGHT" WORTHY OF BEING CALLED A BLISS or BLISSFUL EXPERIENCE? Knowing how the world works may be all fine and dandy when ya don't know and you look at that reality from a distance but once you become part of that reality, well, then the real work begins to define whether or not this "knowing" is actually a good, a social good, etc, or not. > > Good Luck, it was nice talking with you this morning. > > toodles, > colette > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > <...> > C: It appears you have achieved clairvoyance [through the jhana(s)] as I quote you, colette: "Yes you do understand. You simply observe the OBSCURATIONS that you have manifested and lack the ability to actually observe Jhana in it's own state." I, thus, no further need to type as you already perceive... peace... as ever, el diablo (in another parallel universe, I remain) metta (maitri), Zee (aka Chuck) #103960 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:22 am Subject: Re: Why Were Bodhisatta And Family Able To Behave The Way They Did? abhidhammika Dear Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Howard, Alex, Freewaru, Phil, Chris F, Robert K, Sarah, Jon How are you? Uncle U Han Tun wrote: "The Bodhisatta and family were able to behave the way they did because they were contemplating on mara.nasati day and night." Exactly, Uncle! Recollection of Death (mara.nassati) is one of the formal samatha methods described in Visuddhimaggo. How to develop this method of mara.nassati formally and intensively can be found from Section 167 through to Section 177 in Visuddhimaggo. Buddhaghosa made it very clear that death for this samatha practice means disconnection of life control (jiivitindriyupacchedo), the macro level breaking up of body and mind. Death in the sense of the body losing heat gradually and no longer breathing and the heart no longer beating is to be used as the meditation object for this formal samatha practice. Buddhaghosa did not forget to exclude the micro level moment-to-moment dissolution of physical and mental phenomena (kha.nikamara.nam) in formal development of mara.nassati samatha. Budhaghosa appeared to have taken this measure to prevent some irresponsible teachers from doing injustice to this important death recollection samatha and from misleading their students. A surprising scenario would be the question whether K Sujin understood the Mara.nassati samatha or not. Was she able to differentiate death as termination of life from moment-to-moment death (kha.nikamara.nam)? Of course, Nina could explain further regarding K Sujin's (mis)understanding. When we read the relevant Pali passage, we can see important technical terms not very transparent in the English translation. 'Bodhisatto sesaanam pacannam evam ovaadam deti "tumhe yathaaladdhaniyaameneva daanam detha, siilam rakkhatha, uposathakammam karotha, mara.nassatim bhaavetha, tumhaakam mara.nabhaavam sallakkhetha, imesahi sattaanam mara.nam dhuvam, jiivitam addhuvam, sabbe sankhaaraa aniccaa khayavayadhamminova, rattica divaa ca appamattaa hothaa"ti. Te "saadhuu"ti ovaadam sampa.ticchitvaa appamattaa mara.nassatim bhaaventi.' The important technical terms in the above Pali passage are daanam (detha), siilam (rakkhatha), uposathakammam (karotha), and mara.nassatim (bhaavetha), day and night (rattinca diva ca), and recollection, unforgetting (appamattaa). Don't they sound familiar? Are they not part of the Ten Bases of Meritorious Deeds in terms of daanam, siilam, bhaavanaa? Are they not constantly attacked by K Sujin and KS Folks for being of formal nature? With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: Dear Suan, Chris and others, <> -------------------- Han: The answer to your question is in the story posted by Chris, which is as follows. [They lived happily and affectionately together. The Bodhisatta thus admonished the other five; "According as ye have received, give alms, observe holy days, keep the moral law, dwell on the thought of death, be mindful of your mortal state. For in the case of beings like ourselves, death is certain, life uncertain: all existing things are transitory and subject to decay. Therefore take heed to your ways day and night." They readily accepted his teaching and dwelt earnestly on the thought of death.] Han: The Bodhisatta and family were able to behave the way they did because they were contemplating on mara.nasati day and night. with metta and rspect, Han #103961 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now dhammasaro Good friend colette, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi charlest, > > Who? Me? Diablo? I think not. C: Hmmm, dis ole codger begins to question your assertion of clairovoyance... ... snip #103962 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:35 pm Subject: Computer Problems upasaka_howard Hi, all - I've been having major computer trouble. I had to restore the contents of my hard disk, redownload my antivirus software, and more. I'm still having major problems w/AOL software, and at any time I may find myself unable to send or read mail. So please bear with me if I seem to have fallen off the face of the earth. With metta, Howard #103963 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] about "reification monster" upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 12/27/2009 5:45:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, Nina, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Nina) - > -------------------------------------------------- > The question assumes relations to be things. They are not. Speaking of > relations is just that - speaking. When the occurrence of some type of qualities or events are consistently associated in some way with the > occurrence of other qualities or events, we speak of those phenomena as being > "related in that way" and we speak of "there being a relation between or among > them." It is just a manner of speaking. We speak of relations, but there are > no things by that name. But the citta are not things either. They are listed as ultimate dhammas, so why not relations which are not things as well be listed as equal ultimate dhammas? ---------------------------------------------------- It seem to me that there are degrees to "thingness," and relations are less in that respect to so-called cittas, which I agree are also not things. We are aware of consciousness, but we only conceive of relations. Where is the fatherhood relation? Where is the next-to relation? NOWHERE! --------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103964 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality belongs to which dhamma ? upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 12/27/2009 10:56:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ksheri3@... writes: Hi Howard Luv your reply below! Well said. ============================= Why, thank you! :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103965 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:46 pm Subject: Morality & Stream enterer truth_aerator Hello all, Does reaching stream entry perfects morality (and other relevant things), or does perfecting morality (and other relevant things) leads to stream entry? What is your opinion? With metta, Alex #103966 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Jon Lobha can only arises with either conceit or wrong view. When one craves for an object that does not exist as a reality, it is a wrong view. Nothing wrong with conceptualisation as it exist as a mind object. The problem with conceptualisation which is an object of the mind is that our conditioning will lead us believe it is a thing/being/self. Only when we see it as nama and rupa, then the idea of a self/being/thing unto a conceptual object will slowly be eradicated. Cheers Ken O #103967 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself ashkenn2k Dear Sarah and pt the condition for sound is space without space, it is not possible to hear. Without space it is not possible for the air or wooden molecules to vibrate Cheers Ken O #103968 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now ashkenn2k Dear Alex in the first place there is no self in any dhammas, it is because of ignorance and craving we live in a world of self. Forceful study is useless, because it contain a belief that "I" must do more effort or make more effort. This is wrong effort because there is an "I". We must go back to the basic line, when there is seeing, is there a self involved? There is no need to be forceful about seeing. It arise because of condition. So why being forceful about it? Cheers Ken O #103970 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah If I am not wrong, sakkaya ditthi is a subset of attanuditthi. Attanuditthi is not just wrong view, it also includes conceit. Sakkaya ditthi is about believing in personality in aggregates. A personality could be a self or a thing and believe such a thing exist which they do not. Quote from Concepts and Reality - pg 51 We should carefully consider when there is sakkyaditthi, personality belief. Although concepts are not realities, paramattha dhammas, we may take them for things that really exist, and then there is wrong view. When someone clings to the concept of self, being, person, or different things and really believes that they exist, there is the wrong view of sakkya-ditthi (personality belief). So long as sakkya-ditthi has not been eradicated there are conditions for the arising of many other kinds of wrong view as well. There may be the wrong view that there is no kamma, no result of kamma, there may be the belief in an almighty god, the creator of the world and of all beings and all people. When we donot know the conditions for the arising of all sankhra dhammas, conditioned dhammas, there can be different kinds of wrong view. However, not each time when citta has a concept as object there is clinging to wrong view. cheers Ken O #103971 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:48 pm Subject: Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. glenjohnann Dear Sarah I echo Christine and Nina's responses to this post and add enormous gratitude for your and Jon's efforts to begin and keep this site going at such a high standard of discussion. Each time I go into this site I find so many useful reminders that catch my attention and clarify things that I may have been thinking of or have in the past. It is often like a daily tonic. So, thank you to you and Jon, Nina and all who keep these discussions going. Anumodana. I liked the quotes you chose for your "10 years on in Samsara" message. Your interspersed comments are all good reminders One question that came to mind is in relation to upaarambhacittata (pts:"a carping disposition", i.e looking for flaws)]. Does this refer to a fault-finding / carping disposition generally, or in relation to thinking about the teachings of the Buddha? The reason I ask is that it comes in the series of 3 that includes "disinterest in seeing noble ones, disinterest in listening to their teachings and a fault-finding mentality [adassanakamyata ariyadhammassa, asotukamyata, upaarambhacittata]. If it relates specifically to disinterest in seeing noble ones and listening to their teachings, then it seems close to ditthi and lack of confidence in the teachings. If it is more general, then it seems akin to dosa and relates to all of the all of the moments of critical thoughts etc that arise in a day. This little analysis (clearly "thinking" only!) is clearly oversimplistic. Perhaps you or Nina could say more about upaarambhacittata. Best wishes to you and Jon for a wise new year filled with good discussion among friends. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Good Friends All, > > 1O years on in Samsara....... During this time we've all experienced gains and losses, ups and downs of small and great magnitude. We've all seen (and shared) the value of reflecting on and understanding the Buddha's Teachings. > > More sobering reflections: > > "If, O monks, three things [tayo dhammaa] were not to be found in the world, the Tathaagata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, would not appear in the world, nor would the Dhamma and Discipline proclaimed by him shed its light over the world. What are these three things? Birth, old age and death [jaati, jaraa, mara.na]. But since these three things are to be found in the world, the Tathaagata appears in the world, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, and the Dhamma and Discipline [dhamma vinaya] proclaimed by him sheds its light over the world."* > > S: And this is the reason we're able to meet here, to discuss the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha, to shed some light on the way out of Samsara. > > "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon birth, old age and death. What are these three? Greed, hatred and delusion [raaga, dosa, moha]: without abandoning these three things one is unable to abandon birth, old age and death." > > S: And so it is, with deep appreciation and respect, that I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed on DSG in however small a way. Your reflections, questionings, quotes and disagreements have made it possible for us to all to consider these unwholesome roots (and their opposities) together, along with the way to abandoning them: > > "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon greed, hatred and delusion. They are: personality view, sceptical doubt and clinging to rules and vows. [sakkaayadi.t.thi, vicikiccha, siilabbataparaamaasa]." > > "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon personality view, sceptical doubt and clinging to rules and vows. They are improper attention, pursuing wrong ways and mental lassitude [ayonisomanasikaara, kummaggasevana, cetaso liinatta]." > > "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon improper attention, the pursuing of wrong ways and mental lassitude. They are: unmindfulness, lack of clear comprehension, and mental distraction [Mu.t.thasacca, asampaja~n~na, cetaso vikkhepa]." > > "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon unmindfulness, lack of clear comprehension and mental distraction. They are: disinterest in seeing noble ones, disinterest in listening to their teachings and a fault-finding mentality [adassanakamyata ariyadhammassa, asotukamyata, upaarambhacittata (pts:"a carping disposition", i.e looking for flaws)]." > > S: When we consider and appreciate the Truths as understood by the noble ones, we see and listen to them, no matter where we live, no matter how long it is since the Buddha and his main disciples lived. > > "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon lack of interest in seeing noble ones, disinterest in listening to their teachings and a fault-finding mentality. They are: restlessness, lack of restraint and immorality. [uddhacca, asa.mvara, dussiilya]" > > "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon restlessness, lack of self-control and immorality. They are: lack of faith, unfriendliness and laziness. [assaddhiya, avada~n~nuta, kosajja]" > > "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon lack of faith, unfriendliness and laziness. They are: disrespect, stubborness and bad friendships. [anaadariya, dovacassata, paapamittata]" > > "Without abandoning three things, one is unable to abandon disrespect, stubborness and bad friendships. They are: shamelessness, lack of moral dread and negligence. [ahirika, anottappa, pamaada]" > > S: Thank you all for your support and for all the good friendships and wonderful reminders we've received here. > > May we continue to encourage each other to see the value and meaning of these deep, deep words: > > "There is a person, monks, who is conscientious [hirii], scrupulous [ottaapii] and diligent [appamatto]. Being diligent, he can abandon disrespect [anaadariya], stubborness [dovacassata] and bad friendships [paapamittata]. Having noble friends [kalyaa.namitto], he can abandon lack of faith [assaddhiya], unfriendliness [avada~n~nuta] and laziness [kosajja]. Being energetic [aaraddhaviiriyo], he can abandon restlessness [uddhacca], lack of restraint [asa.mvara] and immorality [dussiilya]. Being virtuous [siilavaa], he can abandon disinterest in seeing noble ones [ariyaana adassanakamyata], disinterest in listening to their teachings [ariyadhammassa asotukamyata], and a fault-finding mentality [upaarambhacittata]. Not being a fault-finder [anupaarambhacitto], he can abandon unmindfulness [mu.t.thasacca], lack of clear comprehension [asampaja~n~na] and mental distraction [cetaso vikkhepa]. Having an undistracted mind [avikkhittacitto], he can abandon > improper attention [ayonisomanasikaara], pursuit of wrong ways [kummaggasevana] and mental lassitude [cetaso liinatta]. Being without mental lassitude [aliinacitto], he can abandon personality view [sakkaayadi.t.thi], sceptical doubt [vicikiccha] and clinging to rules and vows [siilabbataparaamaasa]. Being free from doubt [avicikiccho], he can abandon greed, hatred and delusion [raaga, dosa, moha]. Having abandoned greed, hatred and delusion, he can abandon birth, old age and death. [jaati, jaraa, mara.na]." > *("Birth, Old Age and Death", AN 10s, 76, transl.by B.Bodhi in "Numerical Discourses of the Buddha".) > > S: While we have this precious opportunity, may the wisdom develop which will eventually abandon birth, old age and death and so bring final release from the shackles of Samsara. May we all learn to appreciate what these fine qualities, beginning with hirii, ottaapa and appamatto are at this very moment. > > With very best wishes to all for a wise and content New Year, no matter what difficulties you may face. Remember that your contributions shared here with us all are greatly welcomed, however brief or infrequent! > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #103972 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Jon J>In terms of how this differs from what you said above, it needs to be remembered that seeing always experiences visible object (i.e., mere visible data), and not visible *objects* (such as a car). Moreover, visible object is never the visible object *of a car* (or person); it is always mere visible object. It is our conceptualising again that views visible object as being the visible object of a particular object or person. KO: True, just mere visible objects (if you prefer data). Ok I will be more accurate next time in my rendering :-) so there is no confusiong. Car is a thinking proccess and not a sense process > J>I would say that we take the concept of "a car" as real, whereas it is visible object (= mere visible data) that is being experienced. KO: No, seeing is real, while car is being experienced is a mental object experience by the mind but is not real. The citta that thinks/experience of a car is real but the car is not real. J:>Yes, it is dhammas that are to be understood, not people and objects. KO: Are you saying visible dhamma is an not an object of visible cittas. It should be dhammma are to be undertood and not concepts. We should not use objects in this instance. We could also add, citta that thinks of the mental object of a concept should be understood and not the mental object of a concept should be understood cheers Ken O #103973 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Sarah and pt > > the condition for sound is space without space, it is not possible to hear. Without space it is not possible for the air or wooden molecules to vibrate > > Cheers > Ken O > > > ... snip C: The word, "space" is a rather nebulous word. When it is used, it should be clear what definition is used. Otherwise, it leads to continued mis-understandind and needless debating. For example: Space is the boundless, three-dimensional extent in which objects and events occur and have relative position and direction. Physical space is often conceived in three linear dimensions, although modern physicists usually consider it, with time, to be part of the boundless four-dimensional continuum known as spacetime. In mathematics one examines 'spaces' with different numbers of dimensions and with different underlying structures. The concept of space is considered to be of fundamental importance to an understanding of the physical universe although disagreement continues between philosophers over whether it is itself an entity, a relationship between entities, or part of a conceptual framework. ... In the 19th and 20th centuries mathematicians began to examine non-Euclidean geometries, in which space can be said to be curved, ... In the seventeenth century, the philosophy of space and time emerged as a central issue in epistemology and metaphysics. ... For several centuries the bucket argument was decisive in showing that space must exist independently of matter. ... Space is one of the few fundamental quantities in physics, meaning that it cannot be defined via other quantities because nothing more fundamental is known at the present. ... The way in which space is perceived is an area which psychologists first began to study in the middle of the 19th century, and it is now thought by those concerned with such studies to be a distinct branch within psychology. Psychologists analyzing the perception of space are concerned with how recognition of an object's physical appearance or its interactions are perceived. The above is just a very, minute snippet about the nebulous word, "space." From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space So, what is the definition of "space" as used in the above message? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103974 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Foru Noble Truths! sarahprocter... Hi Kanchuu (Nitesh!), I knew I recognised your email add, but had to search to see that it was you, Nitesh, from Nepal: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/60847 Good to see you again! Which name do people call you by? --- On Mon, 28/12/09, kanchuu2003 wrote: >I wantd to clearify myself with the basics.. The For Noble Truths.. I want to begin with the first one.. 1.Life is a suffering. Please enlighten me with this 1st Noble truth in detail or forward me the link.. ... S: Seeing now is dukkha because it doesn't last and yet we cling to it. The same with all other conditioned realities. In addition to Nina's helpful message, see "Useful Posts" in the files section of DSG under "Noble Truths" for lots, lots more detail. Pls quote anything or ask any further questions on what you find there. Look forward to more discussions again! Metta Sarah ======= #103975 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > ... snip > > Forceful study is useless, because it contain a belief > >that "I" must do more effort or make more effort. This is wrong >effort because there is an "I". C: Yeah, tell it to the young man studying to be a bhikkhu!!! Tell it to the young Thai bhikkhu studying for higher levels!!! > ... snip > Cheers > Ken O > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103976 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, --- On Mon, 28/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >>A: At first one needs to put in effort (without Self View), but when Dhamma understanding becomes good enough, one drops the effort (that may have felt as if one were doing something) and understanding continues to grow. > ... > S: Who is this "one...without Self View"? A:> Nama. ... S: So "Nama puts in effort (without Self View), but when Dhamma understanding becomes good enough, Nama drops the effort and understanding continues to grow." Hmmm.... ... >>S: Doesn't effort (viriya cetasika) arise with all kusala and akusala cittas? > If so, how can effort be "put in" or "dropped"? > ... A:> Nama & rupa develops in such and such a way that we conventionally say "that person went to the forest, meditated, got jhanas, got insight and became an Arahant." .... S: So when you refer to "one puts in an effort" or "one drops the effort", then in terms of paramattha dhammas, what does "nama puts in an effort" and "nama drops the effort" mean? Metta Sarah ====== #103977 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" sarahprocter... Hi Howard (Alex & all), --- On Sun, 27/12/09, upasaka@... wrote: >All practice, in fact, except conventionally, is wrong practice until sense of self is gone, but when sense of self is gone, there is no longer any practice, for there is no need for any. Thus all practice is "wrong" (period) in that it is carried out while still unawakened. And without practice, there is no awakening. The Buddha's samma-bhavana is entirely carried out with sense of self in effect. Yet it is called "right practice," and what makes it "right" is that it leads to awakening. .... S: SN 55:55: “Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma...." As Jon wrote before: "In the expression "practice in accordance with the Dhamma", the term "practice" means the actual moment of consciousness accompanied by insight that knows something about the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. It does not mean undertaking some kind of activity with a view to having that consciousness occur." S: In other words, it refers to the development of satipatthana, the development of the 8-fold path. Even the arahat continues to develop satipatthana, even though there are no kilesa to be eradicated. There is never anything "wrong" about moments of right practice (pa.tipadaa) or satipa.t.thaana. At such moments, even in ignorant worldlings, there is no wrong view (di.t.thi) or any kind arising, even though the latent tendency has not yet been eradicated. Metta Sarah ====== #103978 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:25 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (316, 13-14), and commentary, part 2. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 14. Walshe DN 33.2.1(14) 'Five benefits to the moral through preserving morality: DN 33 [ii 86] 1.24. Pali: -------- N: The advantages resulting from good siila are the opposites of the disadvantages resulting from bad siila. These two suttas are a reminder to refrain from akusala and to develop kusala. The disadvantages of the absence of kusala siila and the benefit of kusala siila become manifest in this life and in the life to come. When one is attached to ones own comfort and neglects ones duties because of laziness, the effect will be loss of property. When one is industrious the opposite is the case. In these suttas we read about events occurring in daily life, but actually it is akusala citta or kusala citta that motivates ones actions and speech. There is no person who possesses bad siila or good siila, there are only moments of citta conditioned by different factors that condition different behaviour. Satipa.t.thaana conditions most of all kusala through body, speech and mind. Through the development of satipa.t.thaana there will be more understanding of the fact that whatever occurs is only conditioned dhamma, non-self. When someone insults us we learn that in the ultimate sense there is not he who speaks, there is not me who hears. Hearing is vipaakacitta conditioned by past kamma. It was the right time for kamma to produce result. How could another person be blamed? The real cause of trouble is not another person, it is by 'myself'. In this way there will be conditions for kind speech, restraint from harsh speech. --------- Nina. #103979 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recalling the Basics: The Noble Eightfold Path sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, --- On Mon, 28/12/09, upasaka@... wrote: >"The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. " - SN 56.11 ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------ S: And "The way leading to cessation of suffering" is "dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa", where pa.tipadaa is translated as the way or the practice. It is the noble eightfold path. So at moments of satipatthana, it is right practice or the right way, that of right view and so on.....nothing wrong about it. This is contrasted with the wrong way, the wrong path when atta di.t.thi (self view) is involved. So, yes, recalling "the basics", considering "the basics", beginning with the practice of "the basics" at this moment. Metta Sarah ===== #103980 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Our present moment diary, to Ken H. nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 26-dec-2009, om 8:23 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > The first line could be, "There is only the present moment," and > the next could be, "People should understand correctly that the > reality appearing at this very moment is the dhamma paa should > know as it really is." > > Or maybe not; some readers won't know what panna is. This book- > writing business is not as easy as it may seem. > > Let's keep both sentences but find something to go in between ------- N: What would you put in between? Your turn. Nina. #103981 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > If I am not wrong, sakkaya ditthi is a subset of attanuditthi. ... S: Yes. ... >Attanuditthi is not just wrong view, it also includes conceit. ... S: I don't think so. Conceit is not ditthi. ... > > Sakkaya ditthi is about believing in personality in aggregates. A personality could be a self or a thing and believe such a thing exist which they do not. ... S: A self, not a thing like a car. We don't take a car for being oneself, even though we may take it for being a whole, some thing, i.e. attanuditthi (though as Jon explained, usually when we think about a car, there's no view involved, just like when an animal or child thinks about an object.) ... > Quote from Concepts and Reality - pg 51 > > We should carefully consider when there is sakkyaditthi, > personality belief. Although concepts are not > realities, paramattha dhammas, we may take them for > things that really exist, and then there is wrong view. > When someone clings to the concept of self, being, > person, or different things and really believes that they > exist, there is the wrong view of sakkya-ditthi (personality > belief). So long as sakkya-ditthi has not been > eradicated there are conditions for the arising of many > other kinds of wrong view as well. There may be the > wrong view that there is no kamma, no result of kamma, > there may be the belief in an almighty god, the creator of > the world and of all beings and all people. When we donot know the conditions for the arising of all sankhra > dhammas, conditioned dhammas, there can be different > kinds of wrong view. However, not each time when citta > has a concept as object there is clinging to wrong view. ... S: This sentence can be confusing, I agree and I once asked KS for clarification on it: > When someone clings to the concept of self, being, > person, or different things and really believes that they > exist, there is the wrong view of sakkya-ditthi (personality > belief). ... S: Without sakkaaya-ditthi, there cannot be other wrong views, such as the belief that "different things exist". However, sakkaaya-ditthi always refers to one of the 4 kinds of self-view as related to each of the khandhas, i.e 20 wrong views of self. See "Atta-vadupadana & sakkaya-ditthi" in U.P. Metta Sarah ====== #103982 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > the condition for sound is space without space, it is not possible to hear. ... S: An essential condition, yes. ... >Without space it is not possible for the air or wooden molecules to vibrate ... S: I'll leave that for pt! Metta Sarah ======= #103983 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:01 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 14. nilovg Dear friends, The monk should not indulge in sleep, in the company of people and in idle, useless talk. We read in the Gradual Sayings (V, Book of the Tens, Chapter VII, 9, Topics of talk) that while the Buddha was staying near Svatth at Jeta Grove, some of the monks were indulging in idle talk, namely talk on kings, robbers, ministers, food, relatives, villages and other useless topics. The Buddha asked them what they were talking about and then said that such idle, useless talk was improper for them. He pointed out that there were ten topics of talk monks should engage in: Talk about wanting little, about contentment, seclusion, solitude, energetic striving, virtue, concentration, insight, release, release by knowing and seeing It is beneficial also for laypeople to find out which types of citta motivate talking. Even though one cannot change ones habits yet, it is beneficial to know the different types of cittas which motivate ones actions and speech. The monk should train himself in purity in all his actions and speech. There are four kinds of purification of the monks moral conduct: restraint with regard to the disciplinary rules, the guarding of the sense doors, virtue concerning his livelihood, virtue concerning his requisites. With regard to the guarding of the sense faculties, we read in the Middle Length Sayings (I, Sutta 27, The Lesser Discourse on the Simile of the Elephants Footprint): Having seen material shape with the eye, he is not entranced by the general appearance, he is not entranced by the detail. If he dwells with this organ of sight uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil states of mind, might predominate. So he fares along controlling it; he guards the organ of sight, he comes to control over the organ of sight...(the same for the other doorways). When there is understanding of visible object, sound and the other realities as they are, as impermanent and not self, one will be less infatuated by them. In this sense we have to understand the words control and restraint. It is by understanding, by wisdom, that there will be the guarding of the sense faculties. ******* Nina. #103984 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/29/2009 5:15:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (Alex & all), --- On Sun, 27/12/09, upasaka@... wrote: >All practice, in fact, except conventionally, is wrong practice until sense of self is gone, but when sense of self is gone, there is no longer any practice, for there is no need for any. Thus all practice is "wrong" (period) in that it is carried out while still unawakened. And without practice, there is no awakening. The Buddha's samma-bhavana is entirely carried out with sense of self in effect. Yet it is called "right practice," and what makes it "right" is that it leads to awakening. .... S: SN 55:55: “Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma...." As Jon wrote before: "In the expression "practice in accordance with the Dhamma", the term "practice" means the actual moment of consciousness accompanied by insight that knows something about the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. It does not mean undertaking some kind of activity with a view to having that consciousness occur." -------------------------------------------------- I don't agree with that. After associating (the1st), hearing & considering (the 2nd), and carefully attending (the3rd), one then practices in accord with the Dhamma learned (the 4th), and these four LEAD to stream-entry! They *lead* to it. Practice is practice and not insight. Insight is the *fruit* of practice. --------------------------------------------------- S: In other words, it refers to the development of satipatthana, the development of the 8-fold path. Even the arahat continues to develop satipatthana, even though there are no kilesa to be eradicated. There is never anything "wrong" about moments of right practice (pa.tipadaa) or satipa.t.thaana. At such moments, even in ignorant worldlings, there is no wrong view (di.t.thi) or any kind arising, even though the latent tendency has not yet been eradicated. ---------------------------------------------------- Satipatthana is not insight. It is a foundation for mindfulness, an area of application of mindful attention. It is satipa~n~na that is the mindfulness combined with insight, not satpatthana. --------------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103985 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recalling the Basics: The Noble Eightfold Path upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/29/2009 5:26:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard & all, --- On Mon, 28/12/09, upasaka@... wrote: >"The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. " - SN 56.11 ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------ S: And "The way leading to cessation of suffering" is "dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa", where pa.tipadaa is translated as the way or the practice. It is the noble eightfold path. So at moments of satipatthana, it is right practice or the right way, that of right view and so on.....nothing wrong about it. --------------------------------------------------------------- There are no "moments of satipatthana." A satipatthana is a foundation for mindfulness, an area in which mindful attention is usefully applied, an area of contemplation that can *lead* to insight. It is not a synonym for 'pa~n~na'. ------------------------------------------------------------ This is contrasted with the wrong way, the wrong path when atta di.t.thi (self view) is involved. So, yes, recalling "the basics", considering "the basics", beginning with the practice of "the basics" at this moment. Metta Sarah =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103986 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aryans do not feel pleasant mental feelings? sarahprocter... Dear Alex & Ken O, I appreciated your discussion on different aspects of sukkha (happiness/pleasant feeling)and I thought Ken O added some interesting quotes in #103758: [Sariputtasamyutta, no 2. Without Thought] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > <> > > There is also a comy on it. In future pse read Nyanaponika Thera versions, > Comy.: "From the fourth jhana onwards, it is the neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling (that is present in these meditative states). But this neutral feeling, too, is called 'pleasure' (sukha), on account of its being peaceful and sublime. What arises by way of the five cords of sensual desire and by way of the eight meditative attainments is called 'pleasure as being felt' (vedayita-sukha). The state of Cessation of Perception and Feeling is a 'pleasure, not being felt' (avedayita-sukha). Hence, whether it be pleasure felt or not felt, both are assuredly 'pleasure,' in the sense of their being painfree states (niddukkhabhava-sankhatena sukhena)." .... S: I'd like to introduce and add extracts from 2 suttas I find interesting from AN which refer to rebirth as dukkha and not-rebirth as sukkha. I'm using the PTS translations which use "weal and woe" for sukkha and dukkha, but I'm going to put the Pali terms in the translation as this is clearer (for me): ***** AN 10s, 65 Sukkha and Dukkha (a) [The Wanderer Saamandakaani approaches Saariputta] " 'Pray, Saariputta, your reverence, what is sukkha and what is dukkha?' " ' Your reverence, rebirth is dukkha, not-rebirth is sukkha. Where there is rebirth, this dukkha may be looked for: Cold and heat; hunger and thirst; evacuation and urination; contact with fire, the rod, the spear; even one's own relatives and friends abuse one, when they meet or gather together. Where there is rebirth, your reverence, this dukkha may be looked for. "But when there is no rebirth this sukkha may be looked for: No cold and heat......etc. Where there is not rebirth, your reverence, this dukkha is not to be looked for.' " **** S: And the following sutta, AN 10s, 66 Sukkha and Dukkha (b) will be of interest, I'm sure as it touches on many of my discussions with Alex: [Again the Wanderer Saamandakaani approaches Saariputta] " 'Pray, Saariputta, your reference, in this dhamma-discipline what is sukkha and what is dukkha?' " 'Your reverence, when there is discontent (anabhiratiyaa) this dukkha may be looked for: Whether one goes, stands, sits, or lies, he reaches not happiness and pleasure; whether he has gone to the forest, to the root of a tree, to a lonely place, to life in the open air, to life amid the monks, he reaches not happiness and pleasure. Where there is discontent, this dukkha may be looked for (paa.tika"nkha.m). "Where there is content (abhiratiyaa), your reverence, this sukkha may be looked for: Whether one goes, stands, sits, or lies, he reaches happiness and pleasure. Whether he has gone to the forest, to the root of a tree, to a lonely place, to life in the open air, to life amid the monks, he reaches happiness and pleasure. "Where there is content, your reverence, this sukkha may be looked for.' " S: Of course it is the arahat who is completely content, who is said to delight in seclusion (in the deepest sense of the word), who has found true Sukkha (happiness) and knows there will be no more rebirth. AN 8s, 28: "Again, the heart of a canker-freed monk inclines towards seclusion, leans thereunto, bends thereunto, abides therein, finds delight (paa.tika"nkha.m, as above)therein and is rid of all conditions pertaining to the cankers....." Metta Sarah ======= #103987 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now ashkenn2k Dear Chuck During the arisen of panna at the moment of seeing, there is no presence of self. This is the development, why a need to be forceful. Could a dhamma that is anatta be force by a atta. This is not possible. Could one force seeing or it arise on its own condition? Also what is self? Is there anywhere in the five aggregates we could pinpont as self? If there is, pse show me. If one does not even notice or mindful of the characteristics of seeing, how could higher level of development be achieved. If one could not be mindful of nama and rupa, how could one guards their mind, restrain in their senses, this is not possible. Even those practise mundane jhanas must have high level of mindfullness to withdrawn from sense pleasure. Cheers Ken O >>C: Yeah, tell it to the young man studying to be a bhikkhu!!! > >Tell it to the young Thai bhikkhu studying for higher levels!!! > >> ... snip >> Cheers >> Ken O >> > #103988 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >>Attanuditthi is not just wrong view, it also includes conceit. >... >S: I don't think so. Conceit is not ditthi. . KO: Yes I know conceit is not a ditthi. I am guessing on attanuditthi basing on anatta as opposite of atta. I could be very wrong here. I appreciate if you have any text reference explaining this term as my dicitionary I have, does not provide much help. >... >S: A self, not a thing like a car. We don't take a car for being oneself, even though we may take it for being a whole, some thing, i.e. attanuditthi (though as Jon explained, usually when we think about a car, there's no view involved, just like when an animal or child thinks about an object.) >. KO: I also find it difficult to explain on this why when we take concepts as being, it is sakkaya ditthi. Sakkaya dithhi is not just about self, it is also personality view or being view. Car and self are also mental constructs, not real. We cannot say when we think about a car, there is no view involved, there could be wrong view because car is not a reality, is just a mental construct. When an animal or child see a concept, they are full of wrong view because they do not understand the characteristics of reality. Only Arahants understand clearly car as a mental object and not a reality. The car we see in a magazine or in real life is just colours as visual object and concepts as in thinking. When we take concepts as a reality, our conventional mind which is so condition will think it as a being on top of the wholeness which the mind construct. Just like a house we live in, we feel attach to it as though it is a being. Wholeness is just attanuditthi and not sakkayaditthi, sakkayaditthi is placing a personality on the wholeness. Cheers Ken O #103989 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself sarahprocter... Dear All, a clarification - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Ken O, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > the condition for sound is space without space, it is not possible to hear. > ... > S: An essential condition, yes. ... S: I mean, an essential condition for hearing (of sound). I understand Ken O's short-hand, others might not:-) Sarah =========== #103990 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" ashkenn2k Dear Alex right start is important, when panna arise and understand the characterisitic of seeing etc, it is right practise. Why go around do alots of unneccessary effort and have this idea of 1%, when reality is right here and right now. Cheers Ken O > >So 99.999% of the practice may be wrong at first (which is why quantity and effort matters, at first), but that 1% will eventually (and in long time, perhaps) be able to grow to 100%. > >With metta, > >Alex > > > #103991 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" What martial arts teach us ashkenn2k Dear Alex Alex: Same could be said about anything. What about studying? that could be done with with wrong understanding as well. Besides, like only studying karate manual will not make one good at sparring, similar is here. Sure I believe that all is not self, no-control, anicca, dukkha, and other ABC's. That doesn't make drop all lust, anger, fantasies about "brave young japanese/chinese girls with guns doing kung-fu", etc, even though I know that it is wrong, useless, a meatless bone, etc, etc. ======== KO: And also dont misunderstand when we said studying, it is not just looking at the text or listening to dhamma, it is also about studying nama and rupa when they arise. Also understanding is gradual, our understanding of this level is not keen enough to penetrate the characteritistics. This conventional level of understanding is the start. It does not make us overnight, dropping all our lust, anger etc, this is not possible yet. Defilements are eradicated bit by bit, slowly but surely when panna arise even at conventional level to understand nama and rupa. cheers Ken O #103992 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:36 am Subject: Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah and Jon, Regarding: S: "1O years on in Samsara..." Scott: I'd like to add my gratitude for your kind and generous sponsoring of the list. It's a cool ether-space and I appreciate being able to consider the Dhamma within it. Thanks and congratulations on the decade. Sincerely, Scott. #103993 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recalling the Basics: The Noble Eightfold Path nilovg Hi Howard, Op 29-dec-2009, om 12:34 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > There are no "moments of satipatthana." A satipatthana is a foundation > for mindfulness, an area in which mindful attention is usefully > applied, > an area of contemplation that can *lead* to insight. It is not a > synonym for > 'pa~n~na'. -------- N: Just this morning, when reading to Lodewijk, he had a similar remark. There are different meanings of satipa.t.thaana: it can mean, as you say: a foundation of mindfulness. The four Applications which are the objects of sati and pa~n~naa. Another meaning: sati of the level of satipa.t.thaana. As you know there are different levels; sati of daana, non-forgetfulness of this kind of kusala when the occasion presents itself. Not wasting such moment by laziness, being attached to rest or comfort. Sati of the level of siila: restraint from akusala in action or word. One may be tempted to retort an unpleasant remark (on Email, for example), but sati arises (together with hiri and ottappa) and is non- forgetful of kusala. There can be mettaa and karu.naa instead of harsh feelings. Sati of the level of samatha is non-forgetful of subjects of calm, like recollection of the Triple Gem when the opportunity arises. Or mindfulness of death, so many occasions. Sati of the level of satipa.t.thaana: as Sarah says: the basics now. And there are realities all the time, which can be objects of mindfulness, also now. Here we can speak of moments of satipa.t.thaana. As you say, sati is not pa~n~naa, but at this level it can accompany a beginning pa~n~naa, that comes to understand seeing as not my seeing, and visible object as a reality which is visible, not a person or thing. M. sutta 27, Cuu.lahatthipadopamasutta.m (PTS transl): Having seen material shape [N: visible object] with the eye, he is not entranced by the general appearance, he is not entranced by the detail. If he dwells with this organ of sight uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil states of mind, might predominate. So he fares along controlling it; he guards the organ of sight, he comes to control over the organ of sight...(the same for the other doorways). (So cakkhuunaa ruupa.m disvaa na nimittaggaahii hoti naanubya~njanaggaahii; yatvaadhikara.nam ena.m cakkhundriya.m sa.mvuta.m viharanta.m abhijjhaadomanassaa paapaka akusalaa dhammaa anvaassaveyu.m tassa sa.mvaraaya pa.tipajjati, rakkhati cakkhundriye sa.mvara.m aapajjati. Sotena sadda.m sutvaa- pe pe ) ------ This text can become more meaningful when considering nimitta, mental image of a whole, and details, anubya~njana. Are we not doing this the whole day? Thinking that we see a person ? But it is only ruupa, visible object in this context, that is seen. The same with the other doorways, we do not hear a person, only sound. --------- Nina. #103994 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now dhammasaro Good friend Ken O, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Chuck > > During the arisen of panna at the moment of seeing, there is no presence of self. This is the development, why a need to be forceful. Could a dhamma that is anatta be force by a atta. This is not possible. Could one force seeing or it arise on its own condition? > > Also what is self? Is there anywhere in the five aggregates we could pinpont as self? If there is, pse show me. > > If one does not even notice or mindful of the characteristics of seeing, how could higher level of development be achieved. If one could not be mindful of nama and rupa, how could one guards their mind, restrain in their senses, this is not possible. Even those practise mundane jhanas must have high level of mindfullness to withdrawn from sense pleasure. > > Cheers > Ken O > > > >>C: Yeah, tell it to the young man studying to be a bhikkhu!!! > > > >Tell it to the young Thai bhikkhu studying for higher levels!!! > > > >> ... snip > >> Cheers > >> Ken O > C: It is a shame you deleted your words to which I commented! Quote your words: > "Forceful study is useless, because it contain a belief > >that "I" >must do more effort or make more effort. This is wrong >effort >because there is an "I"". > To which, I replied: >>"C: Yeah, tell it to the young man studying to be a bhikkhu!!! > > > >Tell it to the young Thai bhikkhu studying for higher levels!!!" > > FWIW, I still stand by what I wrote!!! Tell it to any bhikkhu aspirant or bhikkhu that "forceful study is useless, because..." Good friend Ken O, I suppose you are going to tell us all, you never, never did any "forceful study"!!! Good friend Ken O, I suppose you are going to tell us all, you never, never did any "forceful study" in the last five years!!! Imho, what you, Ken O, write is correct; however, how does it help the two sentient beings of which I wrote? Of what practicability, if I quote you??? There is none!!! One has to teach at the level of student, gradually increasing their knowledge... going from every day mundane language to more and more Buddha language... was this not the historic Buddha way??? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103995 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear All, > > a clarification - > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > Hi Ken O, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > > > the condition for sound is space without space, it is not possible to hear. > > ... > > S: An essential condition, yes. > ... > S: I mean, an essential condition for hearing (of sound). I understand Ken O's short-hand, others might not:-) > > Sarah > =========== > C: Good friend Sarah said, in part: "I understand Ken O's short-hand, others might not:-)" To which, I respond... your smiley should be a frown!!! Misleading "short hand" or teaching [which only insiders understand] is not correct Dhamma-vinaya teaching. At least, not the way I was taught. As an instructor and lecturer, I was taught to be clear, concise with no ambiguity!!! Perhaps, DSG does not agree???????? :( metta (maitri), Chuck #103996 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recalling the Basics: The Noble Eightfold Path upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/29/2009 10:39:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko @xs4all.nl writes: N: Just this morning, when reading to Lodewijk, he had a similar remark. ------------------------------------------------ Three cheers for Lodewijk!! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- There are different meanings of satipa.t.thaana: it can mean, as you say: a foundation of mindfulness. The four Applications which are the objects of sati and pa~n~naa. ----------------------------------------------------------- Where are the other meanings (of wisdom, in particular) given, Nina? That is how it seems to be used on DSG, Nina, as direct insight/wisdom. ---------------------------------------------------------- Another meaning: sati of the level of satipa.t.thaana. As you know there are different levels; sati of daana, non-forgetfulness of this kind of kusala when the occasion presents itself. Not wasting such moment by laziness, being attached to rest or comfort. Sati of the level of siila: restraint from akusala in action or word. One may be tempted to retort an unpleasant remark (on Email, for example), but sati arises (together with hiri and ottappa) and is non- forgetful of kusala. There can be mettaa and karu.naa instead of harsh feelings. Sati of the level of samatha is non-forgetful of subjects of calm, like recollection of the Triple Gem when the opportunity arises. Or mindfulness of death, so many occasions. Sati of the level of satipa.t.thaana: as Sarah says: the basics now. And there are realities all the time, which can be objects of mindfulness, also now. Here we can speak of moments of satipa.t.thaana. -------------------------------------------------------- I won't say "no," but I do not readily "buy" this, Nina. I think this is an idiosyncratic usage. ------------------------------------------------------- As you say, sati is not pa~n~naa, but at this level it can accompany a beginning pa~n~naa, that comes to understand seeing as not my seeing, and visible object as a reality which is visible, not a person or thing. --------------------------------------------------------- I don't deny that mindfulness is closely related to wisdom. In fact, it is a primary condition for the arising of wisdom. But I do not think that 'satipatthana' has the same meaning as 'pa~n~na'. =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103997 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" truth_aerator Dear Sarah, KenO, Jon, Sukin, Scott, all, >--- sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alex & all, > > --- On Mon, 28/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >>A: At first one needs to put in effort (without Self View), but when Dhamma understanding becomes good enough, one drops the effort (that may have felt as if one were doing something) and understanding continues to grow. > > ... > > S: Who is this "one...without Self View"? > > A:> Nama. > ... > S: So "Nama puts in effort (without Self View), but when Dhamma understanding becomes good enough, Nama drops the effort and understanding continues to grow." Hmmm.... > ... The understanding grows and improves. > >>S: Doesn't effort (viriya cetasika) arise with all kusala and akusala cittas? > > If so, how can effort be "put in" or "dropped"? > > ... As understanding improves, there is more right effort and less "wrong" effort. > A:> Nama & rupa develops in such and such a way that we conventionally say "that person went to the forest, meditated, got jhanas, got insight and became an Arahant." > .... > S: So when you refer to "one puts in an effort" or "one drops the effort", then in terms of paramattha dhammas, what does "nama puts in an effort" and "nama drops the effort" mean? > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== So what I mean is that there is more panna appearing and less moha. More "rights" and less "wrong". With metta, Alex #103998 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:06 am Subject: Re "Hard in training, easy in battle!" What martial arts teach us truth_aerator >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > Alex: Same could be said about anything. What about studying? that could be done with with wrong understanding as well. Besides, like only studying karate manual will not make one good at sparring, similar is here. > > Sure I believe that all is not self, no-control, anicca, dukkha, and other ABC's. That doesn't make drop all lust, anger, fantasies about "brave young japanese/chinese girls with guns doing kung-fu", etc, even though I know that it is wrong, useless, a meatless bone, etc, etc. > ======== > > KO: And also dont misunderstand when we said studying, it is not just looking at the text or listening to dhamma, it is also about studying nama and rupa when they arise. > Dear KenO, Can you please describe in more detail on the specifics regarding "Ken: studying nama and rupa when they arise." After a person has right view (which may not take that much time), the samatha becomes more and more important. Often the unwholesome tendencies are devoid of specific wrong views, they are simply an ingrained habit patterns that may require new, the opposite actions to become ingrained as habit patterns. As I've said, I believe in anatta, no-control, anicca, dukkham asubha, etc etc. It doesn't make all the lustful tendencies by itself (that are wrong, useless, etc btw). Why? Because of mostly old worldly habitual tendencies that were not yet over written by Dhammic ones. Skill in martial arts is also based on very repetitive practice of same sets on moves to the point when they become 2nd nature and happen naturally/automatically. With metta, Alex #103999 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" truth_aerator Dear KenO, Sarah, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > right start is important, when panna arise and understand the characterisitic of seeing etc, it is right practise. Why go around do alots of unneccessary effort and have this idea of 1%, when reality is right here and right now. > > Cheers > Ken O > > > > >So 99.999% of the practice may be wrong at first (which is why quantity and effort matters, at first), but that 1% will eventually (and in long time, perhaps) be able to grow to 100%. > > > >With metta, > > > >Alex Because perfect (100%) understanding doesn't happen immediately following 0% understanding. There may be a long gap between totally wrong, and perfect understanding. Meditation is about gaining more intuitive (non-theoretic, non-verbal) understanding/wisdom AND skill in applying the understanding. Saying "either do it perfectly the first time, or don't do it at all" would basically prevent one from doing anything and lead to inaction. With metta, Alex