#104000 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:39 am Subject: 4 factors for stream entry truth_aerator Hello Sarah, Howard, all, About 4 factors for stream entry. As to 3rd step of "yoniso manasikaro" , I have a question: Is it done once (or few times, until it is intellectually understood). Or it is done many times over and over. In the latter case, it *is* a form of practice. Like many subjects described in VsM. As to 4th Step: "Practice of Dhamma according to the Dhamma". Literally taking it could imply the whole path of sense restraint, moderation in eating, wakefulness and alertness, abandoning hindrances, developing Jhana and so on and so forth. Is there a sutta passage showing that it is merely a [resultant] citta that arises at the moment of lokuttara citta khana? With metta, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 12/29/2009 5:15:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > Hi Howard (Alex & all), > > --- On Sun, 27/12/09, upasaka@... wrote: > >All practice, in fact, except conventionally, is wrong practice until > sense of self is gone, but when sense of self is gone, there is no longer any > practice, for there is no need for any. Thus all practice is "wrong" > (period) in that it is carried out while still unawakened. And without practice, > there is no awakening. The Buddha's samma-bhavana is entirely carried out > with sense of self in effect. Yet it is called "right practice," and what > makes it "right" is that it leads to awakening. > .... > S: SN 55:55: > “Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the > realization of the fruit of stream-entry. What four? > Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful > attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma...." > > As Jon wrote before: "In the expression "practice in accordance with the > Dhamma", the term "practice" means the actual moment of consciousness > accompanied by insight that knows something about the true nature of a presently > arising dhamma. It does not mean undertaking some kind of activity with a > view to having that consciousness occur." > > -------------------------------------------------- > I don't agree with that. After associating (the1st), hearing & > considering (the 2nd), and carefully attending (the3rd), one then practices in > accord with the Dhamma learned (the 4th), and these four LEAD to stream-entry! > They *lead* to it. Practice is practice and not insight. Insight is the > *fruit* of practice. > --------------------------------------------------- > > > S: In other words, it refers to the development of satipatthana, the > development of the 8-fold path. Even the arahat continues to develop > satipatthana, even though there are no kilesa to be eradicated. There is never > anything "wrong" about moments of right practice (pa.tipadaa) or satipa.t.thaana. > At such moments, even in ignorant worldlings, there is no wrong view > (di.t.thi) or any kind arising, even though the latent tendency has not yet been > eradicated. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Satipatthana is not insight. It is a foundation for mindfulness, an > area of application of mindful attention. It is satipa~n~na that is the > mindfulness combined with insight, not satpatthana. > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > Metta > > Sarah > ================================== > With metta, > Howard > > > Seamless > > /A change in anything is a change in everything/ #104001 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:13 pm Subject: Book: Nyanaponika nilovg Dear pt and friends, I searched old messages for an online version of Ven. Nyanaponika Abh. Studies. I saw messages of pt in August but could not find the link. Could anyone help? Thanks. I want to give a link to Vince of the Ch on ' the problem of time'. Nina. #104002 From: "Christine" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:35 pm Subject: Re: Book: Nyanaponika christine_fo... Hello Nina, Perhaps this may be of assistance - it is the 19th book in the list on this site: (690 KB) Abhidhamma Studies (Buddhist Psychology) Ven. Nyanaponika Thera. The content of these studies is rather varied: they include philosophical and psychological investigations, references to the practical application of the teachings concerned, pointers to neglected or unnoticed aspects of the Abhidhamma, textual research etc. This variety of contents serves to show that wherever we dig deep enough into that inexhaustible mine, the Abhidhamma literature, we shall meet with valuable contributions to the theoretical understanding and practical realization of Buddhist doctrine. http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks_s.htm with metta Chris ~The trouble is that you think you have time~ ~It is not what happens to you in life that is important .. it is what you do with it~ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear pt and friends, > > I searched old messages for an online version of Ven. Nyanaponika > Abh. Studies. > I saw messages of pt in August but could not find the link. Could > anyone help? Thanks. > I want to give a link to Vince of the Ch on ' the problem of time'. > Nina. > #104003 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Book: Nyanaponika upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and pt) - In a message dated 12/29/2009 3:13:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear pt and friends, I searched old messages for an online version of Ven. Nyanaponika Abh. Studies. I saw messages of pt in August but could not find the link. Could anyone help? Thanks. I want to give a link to Vince of the Ch on ' the problem of time'. Nina. ====================================== I found _http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhistudy.pdf_ (http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhistudy.pdf) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104004 From: Vince Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:38 pm Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] Book: Nyanaponika cerovzt@... thanks, I have download it. Page 164 and forward are related with Time. The chapter starts with this wonderful definition: "By Time the Sage described the Mind And by the Mind he described the Time: In order, that by such a definition, The dhammas there in classes may be shown" I will read it with calm these days. thanks and best wishes, Upasaka wrote: > In a message dated 12/29/2009 3:13:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > vangorko@... writes: > Dear pt and friends, > I searched old messages for an online version of Ven. Nyanaponika > Abh. Studies. > ====================================== > I found _http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhistudy.pdf_ > (http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhistudy.pdf) > > With metta, > Howard #104005 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Book: Nyanaponika ptaus1 Hi Howard and Chris, Thanks for helping out. For future reference, the link to Ven.Nyanaponika's book (as well as links to many other works/sites that you might find useful) is in the Links section (in the menu on the left). Best wishes pt #104006 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:40 pm Subject: Re: Ditti & Mana sarahprocter... Dear Dinesh, I think you meant your note to go to DSG. No problem at all with slow replies - we all have other committments. How was the retreat? I'll look forward to further discussions and also wish you a very Happy, Healthy and Wise New Year! Metta Sarah --- On Wed, 30/12/09, Dinesh Kularathne wrote: > Please forgive my tardiness. I just > returned from a 5-day mediation > retreat. It’s only today I got a chance to read posts > here on DSG. > > Thank you so much for your reply. Even > though it’s a quick > answer, it’s a perfect one and it answered my quick > question very well. I learned > something from each discussion, so I really can’t say > which one made sense and > which did not; however, I always find Nina’s and your > posts interesting. Thanks > again, Sarah. Have a great > Year. HAPPY NEW YEAR > 2010. #104007 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re "Hard in training, easy in battle!" What martial arts teach us ashkenn2k Dear KenO, Alex: Can you please describe in more detail on the specifics regarding "Ken: studying nama and rupa when they arise." KO: Studying nama and rupa is about considering nama and rupa at the present moment. One understand the characteristics of seeing as it is. No deliberate thinking about it. If one understand seeing as not self that is good, if one just understand it is as seeing, that is good also. Even if one understand just visible rupa and not seeing citta, that is also wonderful. The importance is going back to the reality is by knowing what is real, then we will realise all our conceiving of this world is really based on fallacy of there is a self, a being. Only by going back to reality we will be able to understand that the characteristics of craving, ignorance, the latency, its arising and its conditioning. Only when panna penetrate the characteristics of nama and rupa especially lobha and ignorance, then defilements will be slowly eradicated. When we understand the characteristics, we will slowly understanding that there is no self involved, they are impermanent and suffering. Alex: After a person has right view (which may not take that much time), the samatha becomes more and more important. Often the unwholesome tendencies are devoid of specific wrong views, they are simply an ingrained habit patterns that may require new, the opposite actions to become ingrained as habit patterns. KO: That is not correct. After a person has right view, he will realise that samantha comes naturally with panna and not the other way wrong. Concentration could arise with aksuala citta. Let me equate samantha as being concentrated on one object to achieve calm. Now being concentrated does not mean leading to calm because calm is another cetasika which arise naturally with kusala. However, with arisen of panna there is definitely calm due to these cetasikas a. Mindfulness to guard against aksuala like restlessness that arise with all aksuala b. Equanimity to be even-mindfullness or calm c. Tranquility of citta and cetasikas You dont even have to induce calmness, calm is there every time panna arise. When panna arise, it is an opposite action to akusala. That habit of panna to arise more often could not be induced by believing that I could ask it to arise. All dhammas are anatta, beyond anyone's liking. Now the questions is how to develop, since all are anatta. Precisely because all are anatta, the more we have to understand nama and rupa. and should not do anything against this natural order of dhamma. The natural order of dhamma are seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and touching in our daily lifes and the most thing we are least mindful of, thinking, which is the function of citta. We often forgetful that the mind thinks, think of what we going to eat later, what is happening tomorrow etc. Alex: As I've said, I believe in anatta, no-control, anicca, dukkham asubha, etc etc. It doesn't make all the lustful tendencies by itself (that are wrong, useless, etc btw). Why? Because of mostly old worldly habitual tendencies that were not yet over written by Dhammic ones. Skill in martial arts is also based on very repetitive practice of same sets on moves to the point when they become 2nd nature and happen naturally/automatic ally. KO: automatic nature cannot be possible without sati. To develop sati, the proximate cause is strong sanna or mindfulness concern with the body and so on (MN 10). I dont wish to give you a wrong sense of deva ju just because I mention about mindfulness concern with the body etc. Strong sanna could be induced by considering dhamma by listening and studying dhamma (studying here also refer to daily lives and not just book practise). Studying induce sanna which induce sati:-). Natural order of learning dhamma. Cheers Ken O #104008 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now ashkenn2k Dear Chuck >C: It is a shame you deleted your words to which I commented! KO: Sorry, I dont mean to. >>>"C: Yeah, tell it to the young man studying to be a bhikkhu!!! >> > >> >Tell it to the young Thai bhikkhu studying for higher levels!!!" >> > > >FWIW, I still stand by what I wrote!!! > >Tell it to any bhikkhu aspirant or bhikkhu that "forceful study is useless, because..." > >Good friend Ken O, I suppose you are going to tell us all, you never, never did any "forceful study"!!! > >Good friend Ken O, I suppose you are going to tell us all, you never, never did any "forceful study" in the last five years!!! > >Imho, what you, Ken O, write is correct; however, how does it help the two sentient beings of which I wrote? > >Of what practicability, if I quote you??? > >There is none!!! KO: Yes I do some forceful study before but realise it is not helping until I learn what is seeing. If these two persons willing to listen that forceful study is not helping them and learn dhamma from the basic like seeing, hearing, etc, it would benefit them. Understand nama and rupa is the most helpful because we are always being impinge by such objects in the moment we are awake (less aside those bhavanga cittas). > >One has to teach at the level of student, gradually increasing their knowledge... going from every day mundane language to more and more Buddha language... was this not the historic Buddha way??? KO: Seeing, hearing are all mundane language. One cannot run aways from our senses even if one doing concentration. Buddha always said restrain in our senses, guard our sense doors, etc. When one sees as seeing, one understand there is no self that is seeing and understand seeing arise because of visible object and seeing citta, that is guarding our sense doors, restraining our senses. That IMHO, is most basic of the teachings of Buddhism. All dhamma practise are gradual, what we need are patience that arise naturally with panna. But such practise are shunned by many modern teachers why? IMHO, the result is not evident, one cannot feel immediate calm like one experience in doing concentration. By thinking this is calm, one thought that is bhavana which one does not realise that concentration could be aksuala, while panna is always calm. But such calm from panna is not easily evident, as panna is the main dominant factor in seeing while in concentration, one-pointness is the main dominant factor. Cheers Ken O #104009 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:58 pm Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 10 ashkenn2k Dear all Question: I do not understand very well conventional realities. I see at this moment a pen. You say that when one sees that there is a pen it is evident that the sensedoor process has passed and that there is already a minddoor process. I do not know how I should study or practice so that I do not let the sense-door process pass without knowing it. Sujin: One should listen to the Dhamma so that one will really understand when the object of citta (consciousness) is a concept and through which door citta knows a concept. When citta has a paramattha dhamma (ultimate reality) as object, there are no beings, people or things, there is no self. At this moment realities arise and fall away and succeed one another so rapidly that it seems that we see a thing, such as a fan. The fan rotates, and it seems that we can see rpas (matter) moving. In reality there are many series of mind-door process cittas which have a paatti (concept) as object and thus the characteristics of the paramattha dhammas are hidden. One does not know the characteristics of the paramattha dhammas as they really are. Question: If this is so, how can we do away with concepts? S.: That is not possible. However, one should understand correctly that, when one knows that there are beings, people, or things, there are at such moments mind-door process cittas which have a concept as object. (to be continued) Ken O #104010 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:02 pm Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 8 ashkenn2k Dear all Q. : I do not know yet the characteristic of satipaììhåna. When I listen intently to your lecture, I understand the subject matter, the theory. There is also awareness while I have theoretical understanding, but I do not consider nåma and rúpa at that moment. I am not sure whether that is satipaììhåna or not. S. : If we do not know that our life is only nåma and rúpa, we are bound to take realities for self. We are full of the concept of self and this can only be eradicated completely by satipaììhåna. Sati can be aware and begin to investigate the characteristics of nåma and rúpa which appear. In the beginning, when sati is aware, there cannot yet be clear understanding of the realities which appear as nåma and as rúpa. The understanding may be so weak that it is hardly noticeable. Understanding develops only gradually, it can eliminate ignorance stage by stage; ignorance cannot be immediately eradicated. It is just as in the case of the knife-handle someone holds each day and which wears off only a little at a time. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (III, Middle Fifty, Ch V, § 101, Adze-handle) that the Buddha, while he was in Såvatthí, said to the monks that defilements can be eradicated by realizing the arising and falling away of the five khandhas. This cannot be achieved “by not knowing, by not seeing.” If someone would just wish for the eradication of defilements and he would be neglectful of the development of understanding, defilements cannot be eradicated. Only by the development of understanding, defilements can gradually be eliminated. We read: Just as if, monks, when a carpenter or carpenter’s apprentice looks upon his adze-handle and sees thereon his thumb-mark and his finger-marks he does not thereby know: “Thus and thus much of my adze-handle has been worn away today, thus much yesterday, thus much at other times.” But he knows the wearing away of it just by its wearing away. Even so, monks, the monk who dwells attentive to self-training has not this knowledge: “Thus much and thus much of the åsavas has been worn away today, thus much yesterday, and thus much at other times.” But he knows the wearing away of them just by their wearing away. Understanding has to be developed for an endlessly long time to be continued Ken O 3. Some people dislike it that sati and paññå develop only very gradually, but there is no other way. If someone is impatient and tries to combine different ways of practice in order to hasten the development of paññå, he makes his life very complicated. #104011 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:27 am Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] Book: Nyanaponika nilovg Dear Vince, Ven. Nyanaponika quotes the commentaries, like the Atthasaalinii (Expositor) and gives explanations. Nina. Op 30-dec-2009, om 1:38 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > thanks, I have download it. Page 164 and forward are related with > Time. The chapter starts with this wonderful definition... #104012 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Book: Nyanaponika nilovg Dear pt, Chris, Howard, Thank you for your help. The links section on the homepage at left, I had never looked at it. It is very convenient. Nina. Op 30-dec-2009, om 3:44 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > > > Hi Howard and Chris, > > Thanks for helping out. For future reference, the link to > Ven.Nyanaponika's book (as well as links to many other works/sites > that you might find useful) is in the Links section (in the menu on > the left). > #104013 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recalling the Basics: The Noble Eightfold Path nilovg Hi Howard, Op 29-dec-2009, om 18:01 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I don't deny that mindfulness is closely related to wisdom. In fact, > it is a primary condition for the arising of wisdom. But I do not > think that > 'satipatthana' has the same meaning as 'pa~n~na'. ------- N: I did not say that. When satipa.t.thaana is being developed sati sampaja~n~na, thus, the two sobhana cetasikas of sati and pa~n~naa, perform their functions. Sati is mindful of the present reality and at the same time pa~n~naa investigates its nature. Satipa.t.thaana is mental development, and without pa~n~naa there cannot be mental development, bhaavanaa. There are many levels of pa~n~naa and at the beginning it is still weak. Nina. #104014 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:42 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 15. nilovg Dear friends, As we read in the Dhammapada (verse 183), it is the teaching of the Buddha to abstain from evil, to develop what is wholesome and to purify ones mind. Through mental development there can be purification of the mind, the elimination of what is impure, unwholesome. Mental development is the third of the threefold classification of the ways of wholesomeness. For mental development right understanding or wisdom is necessary, whereas the first way of wholesomeness, generosity, and the second way of wholesomeness, good moral conduct, can be performed also without right understanding. One may perform deeds of generosity, abstain from evil or help others because it is ones nature to do so, even without understanding of ones cittas. When there is right understanding of the different cittas which arise, there can be the development of more wholesome states. Through the development of understanding of ones cittas one will discover all ones weak points, even the slightest faults, and this means that there is less delusion about oneself. It is beneficial to discover that whenever there is no performing of kusala, our actions, speech and thoughts are akusala. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Twos, Chapter 2, 7) about deeds of commission and omission. We read that the brhmin Jnussoni aked the Buddha why some beings were reborn in Hell. The Buddha explained that it was owing to deeds of commission and omission. The Buddha said: Now in this connection, brhmin, a certain one has committed bodily immoral acts, and omitted bodily moral actsand the same as regards speech and thought. Thus, brhmin, it is owing to commission and omission that beingsare reborn in Hell We read that the Buddha then explained that through the commission of kusala kamma and the omission of akusala kamma beings were reborn in Heaven. This text is a reminder not to neglect wholesome deeds. When there is omission of kusala, it will condition regret and worry later on. When kusala is performed with the aim to have less defilements, there will be more motivation to abstain from akusala, to develop kusala and to purify the mind. ******* Nina. #104015 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:42 am Subject: Re: Time Scale dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" wrote: > > Dear Kom, > > >On the topics of timescale, do you have a table of what the > >timescale in the Tipitaka equate to in human years: > > > >kappa: > >antarakappa: > >asankaya (sp?): > > The last one should be asankheyya or asankhyeyya (an incalculable period). > > >I heard from A. Santi the following definitions: > >kappa: if you have a marble the size of 7 cubic kilometers > >(1 cubic yoja), use a thin silk rag, wipe the marble every > >100 years. When the marble all disappears, that's 1 kappa. > >asankaya: (10^100) 10 to the 100 years. > > This is similar to the Pabbata-sutta (SN XV.5) but in this sutta it is > rubbing a mountain a yojana in height once every 100 years with a Kasi > cloth. The first 10 suttas of the Anamatagga-samyutta (SN XV) illustrate the > span of a mahaa-kappa which is still longer. My favourite is the next sutta, > the Saasapa-sutta, which takes a container a cubic yojana in capacity filled > to the brim with mustard seeds. A man removes 1 seed every 100 years. The > container would be empty before an aeon runs out. The nice thing about this > sutta is that you could actually calculate in human years how long it would > take to empty the container. You calculate how many mustards fill a litre by > counting the seeds in a level quarter teaspoon (1 tsp = 5ml). Then figure > out how many seeds fill a cubic yojana (1 yojana = 16 kms) based on it and > mutilpy this by a 100. Does anyone have some mustard seeds in their kitchen > cupboard and a quarter teaspoon? > > I generally understand the kappa to be the same as a mahaa-kappa. I don't > have anything to go on to figure out how many mahaa-kappas are in an > asankheyya but I have been thinking that the number must very high. > > The mahaa-kappa is divided into 4 shorter periods: sa.mva.t.ta, > sa.mva.t.ta..t.thaayii, viva.t.ta, viva.t.ta..t.thaayii (see A ii 142, Vism > XIII.29ff). The Buddha calls them the four incalculables (asankheyya-s) of a > kappa. These incalculables are not the same incalculables as in the phrase > that runs like 'four incalculables and a 100,000 aeons'. > > On page 236 of Narada's Manual of Abhidhamma it is stated that there are 3 > kinds of kappas: antarakappa, asankheyyakappa, mahaakappa. "The interim > period when the age-limit of human beings rises from 10 to an indefinite > limit then falls to ten again is known as an antara kappa. Such twenty > antara kappas equal one asankheyya kappa . . .". In my previous post I > mentioned that 20 antarakappas = 1 mahaakappa which is incorrect. Also, I > started from the 100,000+ years down to 10 and back which is going in the > opposite direction to the Manual's note on the kappas. So an average length > (in human years) of an antarakappa could be calculated by dividing the > number of mustard seeds in the container by 80 and then mutiplying the > result by 100. > > >I believe when you and Roberts say "aeon", it means > >asankaya. It this correct? > > I don't know about Robert, but I generally think of a mahaakappa when just > the word 'kappa' is spoken. And when you say 'asankheyya' I take it that you > mean one of the four periods of a mahaakappa. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > C: Some may be interested in the following book to be published: In January, Sean Carroll, a physicist at Caltech, will release his own pop take on the complexities of time with his much-anticipated debut book, From Eternity to Here: The Quest for the Ultimate Theory of Time. Armchair Einsteins will geek out on his audacious thesis. He argues that our perception of time is informed by entropy the level of disorder in a system and that the movement from low to high entropy as the universe expands establishes the direction in which time flows. Furthermore, he posits that our cosmos may be a relatively young member of a large family and that in some of our sibling universes time runs in the opposite direction. Some others, he argues, don't experience time at all; once a universe cools off and reaches maximum entropy, there is no past or present. oOo peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104016 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: pdf jonoabb Hi pt (103830) > Also, congrats to Sarah and Jon as the list will soon turn 10 :) > =============== Thanks, pt. And thanks for your interest and assistance. Jon #104017 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:51 am Subject: Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. jonoabb Hi Chris (103948) > Thank you Sarah and John for beginning this website, for maintaining and improving it, and for your support and patience over the years. > > Thank you for the Good Friends in the Dhamma I have met through this list, for the inspiriation to come to Bangkok to be in the presence of Tan Ajahn, for the depth of knowledge and understanding of many members like Nina, and for the Pilgrimages and companionship I have shared with you all. > =============== Many thanks for these kind words and for your contribution over the years. Much appreciated. After all, a discussion group is only as good as those who actually take part in the discussions! > =============== > I've slipped away a few times - but always find myself returning to Dhammastudygroup for honest, ethical, supportive Dhamma Friends. > =============== Always good to see you back! > =============== > As the Blessed One told Ven. Ananda about Admirable Friendship: - > "Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path." > (As AN 8.54 points out, this means not only associating with good people, but also learning from them and emulating their good qualities.) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.002.than.html > =============== Thanks for the sutta quote. It's certainly not difficult to see how association with good dhamma friends means everything when it comes to the development of the path. Jon #104018 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. jonoabb Hi Nina (103949) > Dear Sarah and Jon, > I join in with Christine: > Op 28-dec-2009, om 8:32 heeft Christine het volgende geschreven: > > > Thank you Sarah and John for beginning this website, for > > maintaining and improving it, and for your support and patience > > over the years. > ------- > N: Thank you Sarah for all the text quotes today that are very > appropriate. > Without this list we would not have an opportunity to ask questions > and have Dhamma discussions, and hear Kh sujin's voice on the audios > which were also for both of you a lot of work to edit. > =============== A labour of love! Not quite, but certainly something that I get a lot out of, as I do also by reading your many posts, including replies to messages, series of writings and (especially) translations of the commentaries. Anumodana and many thanks for all these, Nina. Jon #104019 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:54 am Subject: Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. jonoabb Hi Scott (103992) > Dear Sarah and Jon, > > Regarding: > > S: "1O years on in Samsara..." > > Scott: I'd like to add my gratitude for your kind and generous sponsoring of the list. It's a cool ether-space and I appreciate being able to consider the Dhamma within it. Thanks and congratulations on the decade. > =============== Thanks, Scott, and for your contributions also (including Pali passages). Glad you find it useful. Jon #104020 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now dhammasaro Good friend Ken O, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Chuck > > >C: It is a shame you deleted your words to which I commented! > > KO: Sorry, I dont mean to. > > >>>"C: Yeah, tell it to the young man studying to be a bhikkhu!!! > >> > > >> >Tell it to the young Thai bhikkhu studying for higher levels!!!" > >> > > >FWIW, I still stand by what I wrote!!! > > > >Tell it to any bhikkhu aspirant or bhikkhu that "forceful study is useless, because..." > > > >Good friend Ken O, I suppose you are going to tell us all, you never, never did any "forceful study"!!! > > > >Good friend Ken O, I suppose you are going to tell us all, you never, never did any "forceful study" in the last five years!!! > > > >Imho, what you, Ken O, write is correct; however, how does it help the two sentient beings of which I wrote? > > > >Of what practicability, if I quote you??? > > > >There is none!!! > > KO: Yes I do some forceful study before but realise it is not helping until I learn what is seeing. If these two persons willing to listen that forceful study is not helping them and learn dhamma from the basic like seeing, hearing, etc, it would benefit them. Understand nama and rupa is the most helpful because we are always being impinge by such objects in the moment we are awake (less aside those bhavanga cittas). > > > C: One has to teach at the level of student, gradually increasing their knowledge... going from every day mundane language to more and more Buddha language... was this not the historic Buddha way??? > > KO: Seeing, hearing are all mundane language. One cannot run aways from our senses even if one doing concentration. Buddha always said restrain in our senses, guard our sense doors, etc. When one sees as seeing, one understand there is no self that is seeing and understand seeing arise because of visible object and seeing citta, that is guarding our sense doors, restraining our senses. That IMHO, is most basic of the teachings of Buddhism. > > All dhamma practise are gradual, what we need are patience that arise naturally with panna. But such practise are shunned by many modern teachers why? IMHO, the result is not evident, one cannot feel immediate calm like one experience in doing concentration. By thinking this is calm, one thought that is bhavana which one does not realise that concentration could be aksuala, while panna is always calm. But such calm from panna is not easily evident, as panna is the main dominant factor in seeing while in concentration, one-pointness is the main dominant factor. > > Cheers > Ken O > C: Sincere warm thanks for your comments. 1. A clarification on mundane language and Dhamma language. I do not agree with your sentence: Seeing, hearing are all mundane language. What you write is not mundane language; hence, when I observe your writings; I observe your Dhamma Language! Why? Because your definitions of your "written words" are not found in the mundane dictionaries. Your definitions are (1) in specialized Buddhist dictionaries and (2) your made-up definitions and short-hand as good friend Sarah recently wrote. 2. On your statement, "That IMHO, is most basic of the teachings of Buddhism."; I must disagree. The most basic teaching in Dhamma-vinaya (Buddhism) is The Four Noble Truths with the Middle Way - The Eight Fold Path. This is where the practice begins... 3. No further comments. Good friend Ken O, again sincere warm thanks for your comments. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104021 From: "philofillet" Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:34 pm Subject: Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. philofillet Yes, hear hear. I've posted a lot of obnoxious reservations about A.S's approach (and I must say my reservations get firmer by the day) but my understanding of Dhamma has definitely been deepened in channels that never would have been reached without having come across DSG. And Sarah and Jon's generosity and patience speaks volumes for the benefits of listening to their teacher. Many thanks! Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Sarah and Jon, > > Regarding: > > S: "1O years on in Samsara..." > > Scott: I'd like to add my gratitude for your kind and generous sponsoring of the list. It's a cool ether-space and I appreciate being able to consider the Dhamma within it. Thanks and congratulations on the decade. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #104022 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Ken O and Chuck, > K: the condition for sound is space without space, it is not possible to hear. > ... > S: I mean, an essential condition for hearing (of sound). I understand Ken O's short-hand, others might not:-) Thanks for resurrecting this topic. Apologies for not replying sooner. Regarding space (KenO), I thought we've already discussed this in posts 102541, 102618, 102732, 102774. I've kind of resolved that this issue of sound and air is one of the few holes in the usually bulletproof abhidhamma. But if you have some other points to bring regarding space that I'm not aware of, please do. > S: I'm not sure whether 'the problem' is the introduction of scientific thinking here or not. Not sure. In my understanding, there's no contradiction between abhidhamma, science and common sense when it comes to seeing and smelling given in the Vsm, only when it comes to hearing. > S: Also, if you'd like to re-state the question or point to your original message where you raised the point, we can ask this and any others when we visit K.Sujin in Feb. I'll try, though I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer. Perhaps I'm making some assumptions that you are not and that's the reason of miscommunication. Restatement: Why is air (or any other medium for sound propagation) not listed as an essential condition for hearing, beside space and those listed in Vsm XV,39: "Ear-consciousness arises due to ear, sound, aperture and attention."( "Aperture" is the cavity of the ear)? Reasoning behind the question: - in case of seeing the conditions given in Vsm (same chpt) are "eye, visible datum, light and attention", so here we have visible datum, the eye and the light which "carries" visible datum to the eye. - in case of smelling Vsm gives "nose, odour, air and attention". Again we have the odour, nose and air which "carries" the odour to the nose. - but in case of sound we have no "carrier". Moreover, in modern terms, sound cannot exist without a medium - i.e. vibrations at the sound-source cannot reach the ear without a medium - (molecules of) air, water, etc, that would also vibrate and carry that vibration from the source to the ear. I see no contradictions between abhidhamma and modern understanding of seeing and smelling though. - I agree that space is an essential condition for sound, but so it is also for seeing and smelling, so it is not a distinguishing factor. Further, space is not a medium as explained in other posts, so space doesn't seem relevant in this discussion. Please let me know if this is still unclear (I tried avoiding scientific and acoustic terms as possible). Best wishes pt #104023 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now ashkenn2k Dear Chuck >C: Sincere warm thanks for your comments. > >1. A clarification on mundane language and Dhamma language. I do not agree with your sentence: Seeing, hearing are all mundane language. > >What you write is not mundane language; hence, when I observe your writings; I observe your Dhamma Language! > >Why? > >Because your definitions of your "written words" are not found in the mundane dictionaries. Your definitions are (1) in specialized Buddhist dictionaries and (2) your made-up definitions and short-hand as good friend Sarah recently wrote. KO: Its difficult to explain dhamma without using dhamma language. I try to write in mundance language and pse forgive me if I did not reach your expectation. When one is seeing, one should know seeing is condition to arise by causes like a visible object and a seeing consciousness. By understanding the causes and conditons of seeing, one is able to notice that there is no self or a I involve in this process. Seeing is natural, there is no self or I put an effort to see. When one understand the causes and conditions, one will slowly eradicate the "self" or "I". That is development of understanding or wisdom. >2. On your statement, "That IMHO, is most basic of the teachings of Buddhism."; I must disagree. > >The most basic teaching in Dhamma-vinaya (Buddhism) is The Four Noble Truths with the Middle Way - The Eight Fold Path. This is where the practice begins... > KO: Yes you are right and right view is also part of the 4NT :-) Cheers Ken O #104024 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recalling the Basics: The Noble Eightfold Path upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/30/2009 3:33:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 29-dec-2009, om 18:01 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I don't deny that mindfulness is closely related to wisdom. In fact, > it is a primary condition for the arising of wisdom. But I do not > think that > 'satipatthana' has the same meaning as 'pa~n~na'. ------- N: I did not say that. -------------------------------------------------- Good! However, the term is largely used that way here! ------------------------------------------------ When satipa.t.thaana is being developed sati sampaja~n~na, thus, the two sobhana cetasikas of sati and pa~n~naa, perform their functions. -------------------------------------------------- Yes, if the cultivation process is working properly. ------------------------------------------------ Sati is mindful of the present reality and at the same time pa~n~naa investigates its nature. ------------------------------------------------- Okay. Agency terminology - somewhat unavoidable - aside, this sounds correct to me! ------------------------------------------------ Satipa.t.thaana is mental development, and without pa~n~naa there cannot be mental development, bhaavanaa. ----------------------------------------------------- So, now you are saying that 'satipatthana' and 'bhavana' are synonyms. I don't think so. I think that satipatthana is a field within which bhavana may occur. ---------------------------------------------------- There are many levels of pa~n~naa and at the beginning it is still weak. ----------------------------------------------------- Certainly true. --------------------------------------------------- Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104025 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:10 am Subject: Re: Re[17]: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas ashkenn2k Dear Vince > well but time is not an idea but a relation. It can be immediately > grasped as another object. The idea about what it is, it will arise > later in dependence of the grasping to past and future cittas. In this > discussion, Time is not supported by itself but finally it is related > with citta, then it can be realized as something delusional. When Time > can be a condition support to keep the delusion about the nature of > dhammas, the focus in Time can be of some profit KO: Citta does not need time to determine its arising, presence and ceassation. Citta does not have the idea in terms of past, present and future, though it could take such objects. Citta does not need to be supported by time. Its arising, presence and cessation is basically due to causes and conditions. Since it is not related or supported by time, it is not useful to focus or even think about it. It is more of a philisophical interest rather than dhamma interest. > > My doubt was to know why same Buddha or the arhants explain reality in > these detailed terms as appears many times in Suttas or in Abhidhamma. > I didn't understand why they don't teaches only anatta and the keeping > of the present moment. > Now I think their explanation arises not as a simple skillful mean but > it must be understood as a real experience. Different of an awareness > of anatta fabricated in the delusion land as another object to be > grasped. Instead that, it is awareness of the mechanics of delusion > and observance of the arising and falling away of this entire dream > while there is stabilization in freedom and emptiness. > Conscienciousness disappears in the sense that it is not more an > object to be grasped. > So it is useful as long this way can last, and now I understand it > should be named and treated as "real", because the dream really arises > and falls away, and denying such truth would be wrong. > KO: There is an infinite inclinations of beings and that is why there are infinite number of explaining reality and anatta. Anatta is not easy to understand, and only known with the arisen of Buddha. Buddha at times use impermanence and suffering to explain anatta. Sometimes he use elements, aggregates, six senses to explain it. Understanding reality is important because it prevent us from having the annihilist view that everything is like a dream and also prevent us to having a thinking that reality is eternal. One cannot deny there is an existence of seeing or feeling heat and such existence of seeing depends on conditions. cheers Ken O #104026 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recalling the Basics: The Noble Eightfold Path nilovg HI Howard, Op 30-dec-2009, om 14:49 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > So, now you are saying that 'satipatthana' and 'bhavana' are synonyms. > I don't think so. I think that satipatthana is a field within which > bhavana may occur. ------ N: Shall we turn this around? Bhaavanaa includes satipa.t.thaana, and it also includes: samatha, studying and explaining Dhamma. See the ten meritorious actions, pu~n~na kiriya vatthu. Nina. #104027 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why Were Bodhisatta And Family Able To Behave The Way They Did? ashkenn2k Dear Suan Buddhaghosa did not forget to include moment to moment as one of the eight ways to learn this meditation. Visud VIII, 39, pg 233 As I said, if you have a point to discuss I am most happy, if not, I appreciate you stop making speech that is not beneficial at all. You could disagree with AS or whoever in the list but there is no need to be cynical about it. You could always do formal practise, no one is stopping you here. We could disagree with you and likewise you could disagree with us. That is perfectly alright. Also dont hide your opinion through a bundle of pali words, be transparent about the words so I could discuss with you on it. If you wish to discuss what you think is important, why not translate the pali words. Be open about. If I am wrong, let me learn from you. If you are wrong, why dont you learn from us. Dhamma is about sharing and friendly. I hope to see more friendly email coming from you. Thanks Ken O #104028 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:27 am Subject: Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. scottduncan2 Dear Phil, I know you are out there... Regarding: P: "...I've posted a lot of obnoxious reservations about A.S's approach (and I must say my reservations get firmer by the day)...And Sarah and Jon's generosity and patience speaks volumes for the benefits of listening to their teacher..." Scott: I found myself thinking about these elements of your post. It's clear that you can't quite escape the ethereal gravitational pull of this site. As you say, you keep returning to post your 'reservations.' I have to say that I can't quite fathom the point of having to do so. I mean if one disagrees then one simply disagrees. If there are places for like-minded individuals to discuss, why not go there? (I'm not suggesting you do, this is a rhetorical question.) I mean, I guess it allows others to discuss aspects of Dhamma antithetical to your views, but why the compulsion to keep returning simply to say you disagree? Inner conflict, I guess. And, furthermore, I'd say that patience or generosity only 'speak volumes' for themselves, as it were. The Dhamma is the teacher. Should these arise in someone, I really don't think that a 'teacher' can be cited as the source. Listening to Dhamma and discussing Dhamma with good friends can both be conditions for kusala. You make a point of communicating your desire for great siila. And of your sense that you are bereft of such great siila. You make a point of asserting that you can make yourself have more siila. Maybe if you stopped looking to outside sources and stopped trying to force everything, things would be different. It's difficult when there is such intense polarization. You've gone through a development of views, as does everyone. I've seen you swing from fervent idealization to fervent devaluation in relation to Kh. Sujin. Neither end of that pole is desirable, in my opinion. Maybe you thought that the teacher could make things different for you and found that she didn't at all and got all disappointed. I'd suggest that seeking a teacher in the form of a person is not really the way to go. I've gone through a development of views as well. I'd characterize it, in part, as moving from a sort of excited attachment (like yours) to a more detached consideration. I used to be caught up in discussions with, say, antagonists, until I'd made sense of each of the views that were being presented. Now, I don't feel inclined to repeat the same things to those whose views don't change. I feel less inclined to try to discuss on the basis of agreement/disagreement. I'd say that the meaning of anatta has been of major influence for me but didn't really do anything to understand it the way I do. I'd not say that I can influence you either. Dhamma is understood by dhammas and thought about later, also dhammas - you know the story. What do you think, man? Try to resist the urge to reply, Phil. Do not reply. Okay, go ahead and reply. No, don't. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #104029 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. ashkenn2k Dear Scott I think one of the great hurdle which I personally felt is that people always think that there must a self that is doing sila. They cannot get away from this idea that there is no self at all performing it. Just like I heard from the tapes where one of the questioner could not fathom why one could practise metta without a being. When one cannot think in terms of citta, cetasikas and rupas, the confusion goes on and on. When citta arise with panna, sila is being done, metta is being done. But a person who thinks he/she is doing sila and metta, may not have panna. Also when sila is not follow or perform correctly or diminishes, one get upset or dissappointed. When one expects, one long, when this expectation is not met, one feel upset. A perpetual distressing cycle of trying to do sila. The simple way is that at the moment of panna, the citta would definitely be kusala and there would be no expectation. With panna, one perfect sila bit by bit. No hurry just like the handle of trade tools of the craftsman is slowly worn away by the usage of the craftsman. Cheers Ken O #104030 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. scottduncan2 Dear Ken O., Regarding: K: "I think one of the great hurdle which I personally felt is that people always think that there must a self that is doing sila. They cannot get away from this idea that there is no self at all performing it." Scott: It's true. I think that way too, when I'm discouraged about akusala and wish 'I' were kinder or what have you. The thought that there are only conditioned dhammas is somewhat consoling, although this is constantly misread as being an acceptance of akusala. Thoughts of a self who does are not usually accompanied by much detachment in my experience. K: "Just like I heard from the tapes where one of the questioner could not fathom why one could practise metta without a being." Scott: Yes, I've heard these dialogues. I think it shows a lot about view - how one thing makes sense to you or to me, but not to another. K: "When one cannot think in terms of citta, cetasikas and rupas, the confusion goes on and on. When citta arise with panna, sila is being done, metta is being done. But a person who thinks he/she is doing sila and metta, may not have panna." Scott: Even when one *can* think in terms of citta, cetasikas, and ruupas the confusion goes on. ;-) But yeah, I know what you mean. Anatta is an absolute bottom-line. K: "Also when sila is not follow or perform correctly or diminishes, one get upset or dissappointed. When one expects, one long, when this expectation is not met, one feel upset. A perpetual distressing cycle of trying to do sila. The simple way is that at the moment of panna, the citta would definitely be kusala and there would be no expectation. With panna, one perfect sila bit by bit. No hurry just like the handle of trade tools of the craftsman is slowly worn away by the usage of the craftsman." Scott: I agree. I've had the expectations and felt the upset. However, the above is *not* to be misunderstood as being a description of a practise. I think it is a matter of things simply unfolding this way and no other. It is a way of thinking about things that is based on right view. Dhammas roll on conditioned and conditioning. I do not agree with the shotgun approach wherein it is suggested that a non-existent 'one' can apply 99% wrong effort to come up with that 1% that is somehow right, which then somehow gains momentum. Bit by bit is very, very slowly - as far as I can tell. Sincerely, Scott. #104031 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:01 am Subject: Re: awareness truth_aerator Dear KenO, (all) >- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear KenO, > > Alex: Can you please describe in more detail on the specifics regarding > "Ken: studying nama and rupa when they arise." > > KO: Studying nama and rupa is about considering nama and rupa at the present moment. One understand the characteristics of seeing as it is. No deliberate thinking about it. If one understand seeing as not self that is good, if one just understand it is as seeing, that is good also. Even if one understand just visible rupa and not seeing citta, that is also wonderful. The importance is going back to the reality is by knowing what is real, then we will realise all our conceiving of this world is really based on fallacy of there is a self, a being. Only by going back to reality we will be able to understand that the characteristics of craving, ignorance, the latency, its arising and its conditioning. Only when panna penetrate the characteristics of nama and rupa especially lobha and ignorance, then defilements will be slowly eradicated. When we understand the characteristics, we will slowly understanding that there is no self > involved, they are impermanent and suffering. > > Thank you for your reply. So what you are saying is basically developing awareness of what is going on in the present (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking) as it is going on. Correct? With metta, Alex #104032 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re "Hard in training, easy in battle!" What martial arts teach us ksheri3 Hi Ken O, Again, you are on the right track, and I don't know how you could possibly express the experience of Yoga Nidra in actaul words but in your attempt to explain something that does not exist you have made SERIOUS ERRORS. > The importance is going back to the reality is by knowing what is real colette: I AGREE. It's like the operation of TRACK BOUNCING, when, in the early days of "garage band mania" a FOUR TRACK recorder was all there was and ya had to bounce the tracks from one track to another track in order for a MASTER TRACK to be made. Along comes 24 Track but that's only for those who had/have BIG MONEY. I agree that your concept here, is the same as REFLECTION, the act of reflection. And what is the act of reflection if nothing more than REIFYING OR REIFICATION, NO? <...> Now I ask you, in your sentence, applying "real" and "reality" in the same sentence as if they were the same thing, lets start with your drug induced version of REAL, please define REAL for me since a drug dependent is far more liable to have a colorful version of what is and what is not REAL? Don't worry, after we get through with your hallucination of what is REAL then we'll get to this astronomical hallucination called REALITY which you so easily put forward. This is what your entire premise is based upon: you hallucinate something as being real when there is no proof that it is real. Take for instance the NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE of countless people; the majority arise with the same hallucination that they saw this alleged light that they were attracted to; is that light real or is that light nothing more than a post hypnotic suggestion that they were given as they were being raised throughout history, and actually what they were experiencing was not something transcendent but something merely as simple as the misinterpretation of the subconcious or yoga nidra experience? I MOST CERTAINLY ADMIT THAT THE MAJORITY OF IDIOTS THAT SUPPOSEDLY EXPERIENCE THIS NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE RETURN TO THIS LIFE/CONSCIOUSNESS AND REPORT NOTHING MORE THAN PREVIOUSLY WRITTEN SCRIPTS FROM A PREVIOUSLY WRITTEN AGENDA. <...> toodles, colette #104033 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re "Hard in training, easy in battle!" What martial arts teach us ksheri3 Hi Ken O., Yes, if a person studies Nama and Rupa they are studying them at the present moment, and this is a two dimensional reality which exists 100% of the time. Yes, that two dimensional reality is only an ILLUSION that exists 100% of the time. How do you transcend that ILLUSION? > If one understand seeing as not self that is good, colette: Yes, that is good that a person does not see the illusion of life as being the self. THAT'S NOTHING MORE THAN THE FIRST STEP. <...> toodles, colette #104034 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re "Hard in training, easy in battle!" What martial arts teach us dhammasaro Good friend colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > ... snip > > Yes, if a person studies Nama and Rupa they are studying them at the present moment, and this is a two dimensional reality which exists 100% of the time. Yes, that two dimensional reality is only an ILLUSION that exists 100% of the time. > > ... snip > > toodles, > colette > Four words on what you wrote above! Bunkum!!! Claptrap!!! Hogwash!!! Rot!!! Happy New Year to the bestest non-existent BS'er. as ever, I remain - el diablo Zee (aka Chuck) #104035 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:22 pm Subject: Re: Time Scale dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > ... snip > > C: Some may be interested in the following book to be published: > > In January, Sean Carroll, a physicist at Caltech, will release his own pop take on the complexities of time with his much-anticipated debut book, From Eternity to Here: The Quest for the Ultimate Theory of Time. > > Armchair Einsteins will geek out on his audacious thesis. He argues that our perception of time is informed by entropy the level of disorder in a system and that the movement from low to high entropy as the universe expands establishes the direction in which time flows. > > Furthermore, he posits that our cosmos may be a relatively young member of a large family and that in some of our sibling universes time runs in the opposite direction. Some others, he argues, don't experience time at all; once a universe cools off and reaches maximum entropy, there is no past or present. > > oOo > > peace... > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > C: Some others [universes], he argues, don't experience time at all; once a universe cools off and reaches maximum entropy, there is no past or present. Perhaps, this is Nibbana (Skt: Nirvana)? What say you? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104036 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. upasaka_howard Hi, Scott & Ken - In a message dated 12/30/2009 2:26:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Ken O., Regarding: K: "I think one of the great hurdle which I personally felt is that people always think that there must a self that is doing sila. They cannot get away from this idea that there is no self at all performing it." Scott: It's true. I think that way too, when I'm discouraged about akusala and wish 'I' were kinder or what have you. The thought that there are only conditioned dhammas is somewhat consoling, although this is constantly misread as being an acceptance of akusala. Thoughts of a self who does are not usually accompanied by much detachment in my experience. K: "Just like I heard from the tapes where one of the questioner could not fathom why one could practise metta without a being." Scott: Yes, I've heard these dialogues. I think it shows a lot about view - how one thing makes sense to you or to me, but not to another. K: "When one cannot think in terms of citta, cetasikas and rupas, the confusion goes on and on. When citta arise with panna, sila is being done, metta is being done. But a person who thinks he/she is doing sila and metta, may not have panna." Scott: Even when one *can* think in terms of citta, cetasikas, and ruupas the confusion goes on. ;-) But yeah, I know what you mean. Anatta is an absolute bottom-line. K: "Also when sila is not follow or perform correctly or diminishes, one get upset or dissappointed. When one expects, one long, when this expectation is not met, one feel upset. A perpetual distressing cycle of trying to do sila. The simple way is that at the moment of panna, the citta would definitely be kusala and there would be no expectation. With panna, one perfect sila bit by bit. No hurry just like the handle of trade tools of the craftsman is slowly worn away by the usage of the craftsman." Scott: I agree. I've had the expectations and felt the upset. However, the above is *not* to be misunderstood as being a description of a practise. I think it is a matter of things simply unfolding this way and no other. It is a way of thinking about things that is based on right view. Dhammas roll on conditioned and conditioning. I do not agree with the shotgun approach wherein it is suggested that a non-existent 'one' can apply 99% wrong effort to come up with that 1% that is somehow right, which then somehow gains momentum. Bit by bit is very, very slowly - as far as I can tell. Sincerely, Scott. ===================================== If I may venture expressing a thought about our thinking "I wish I were X": Sometimes, I believe, it is not necessarily a true self-view that is involved. Mainly, it depends on what is meant exactly when speaking of "I" and of "others". A stream of namas and rupas thought of, within that stream, as "I" tends to be coherent in the sense of the cittas being kammically interrelated. Though streams of namas and rupas do interact, and making a hard-and-fast separation among them is not fully possible, still distinguishing can properly be done as a matter of convention. Scott and Ken and Howard are not one and the same, but are distinguishable. And when within one of these streams of cittas there is the thinking of "I,"say when you, Scott, think "I'm not as X as I might be" it may be just a recognition of these distinctions and not necessarily a matter of belief in a core or self or soul. OTOH, it often IS expressive of a belief in a separate self, core, or soul, in which case that is true atta-view. Moral shame and dread are really important, and they are reflexive in application and presuppose the self-other distinction, the shame and regret applying to thoughts, emotions, and actions within THAT stream of namas and rupas. Sometimes atta-view is involved, but sometimes not, I think. In any case, I don't believe that one should be too quick to condemn oneself for attitudes that might not truly be based on atta-view. For that matter, even actual atta-view, while regretable and deserving of actions to diminish it, should not elicit self-condemnation, for it is par for the course for us worldlings. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104037 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. dhammasaro Good friend Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Scott > > I think one of the great hurdle which I personally felt is that people always think that there must a self that is doing sila. They cannot get away from this idea that there is no self at all performing it. Just like I heard from the tapes where one of the questioner could not fathom why one could practise metta without a being. > > When one cannot think in terms of citta, cetasikas and rupas, the confusion goes on and on. When citta arise with panna, sila is being done, metta is being done. But a person who thinks he/she is doing sila and metta, may not have panna. > > Also when sila is not follow or perform correctly or diminishes, one get upset or dissappointed. When one expects, one long, when this expectation is not met, one feel upset. A perpetual distressing cycle of trying to do sila. The simple way is that at the moment of panna, the citta would definitely be kusala and there would be no expectation. With panna, one perfect sila bit by bit. No hurry just like the handle of trade tools of the craftsman is slowly worn away by the usage of the craftsman. > > > Cheers > Ken O > C: Beware of words, such as, "always." All one needs to fault your thesis is to provide one contrary example. From elementary school, this ole sentient being has realized there is no-self as a permanent physical body. In less than ten years, every cell has been replaced!!! Some ten-plus years ago, this ole sentient being studied the Sutta Anattalakkhana and realized it conforms with what physicist and scientist posit. Hence, your one exception!!! So, is the rest of your thesis faulty, as well? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104038 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >So what you are saying is basically developing awareness of what is going on in the present (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking) as it is going on. > >Correct? > >With metta, > >Alex KO: Yes. It is not just developing awareness, it is developing panna. Awareness alone cannot eradicate defilements. There are two impt distinction, this understanding must be on paramattha dhamma. All objects that arise in the senses except for the mind are paramatha dhamma. Concept only arise in nama. Just understand it as thinking. Sound is just sound, recognising of songs lyrics is thinking. Second distinction that each senses has their specific function. For eg, when our eye is hurt by a bright light, that hurt could only be experienced by body citta and not seeing citta, seeing citta just see. Dont deliberate think and get agitated that hearing citta must arise with 7 cetasikas, then follow by receiving citta etc, it must be condition various conditions like proximate conditon and contiguity condition, That is thinking and not being aware when object impinge on the sound citta which is a sound rupa. All this on understanding conditionality and characteristics would be keener after gradual considering of reality by listening and studying. Cheers Ken O #104039 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re "Hard in training, easy in battle!" What martial arts teach us ashkenn2k Dear colette > >Yes, if a person studies Nama and Rupa they are studying them at the present moment, and this is a two dimensional reality which exists 100% of the time. Yes, that two dimensional reality is only an ILLUSION that exists 100% of the time. > >How do you transcend that ILLUSION? When you hit your head on the wall, is the hurt real or illusion. The hurt is real but head we have is an illusion. The colour, the hardness, the temperate characteristics of the head are all real but the head is not real. When we go rebirth to another being and have another head, this another head would not be the same as the head we had now. But the colour, hardness and temperate would still be real and have characteristics. Cheers Ken O #104040 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now dhammasaro Good friend Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Chuck > > ... snip > > KO: Its difficult to explain dhamma without using dhamma language. I try to write in mundance language and pse forgive me if I did not reach your expectation. C: My expectations of you are irrelevant. Rhetorical questions: 1. Do you not understand, as a highly respected teacher of the Dhamma-vinaya at DSG; you have a very, very grave responsibilty? 2. As such, should you not be a concerned teacher? 3. As such, should you not be an excellent teacher? 4. As such, should you not share what you realized and constantly practice in the language (mundane and/or Dhamma) of your students. Finally, I do envy you. I wish I had the Dhamma-vinaya knowledge you exhibit. Ken O: When one is seeing, one should know seeing is condition to arise by causes like a visible object and a seeing consciousness. By understanding the causes and conditons of seeing, one is able to notice that there is no self or a I involve in this process. Seeing is natural, there is no self or I put an effort to see. When one understand the causes and conditions, one will slowly eradicate the "self" or "I". That is development of understanding or wisdom. > > > >2. On your statement, "That IMHO, is most basic of the teachings of Buddhism."; I must disagree. > > > >The most basic teaching in Dhamma-vinaya (Buddhism) is The Four Noble Truths with the Middle Way - The Eight Fold Path. This is where the practice begins... > > > > KO: Yes you are right and right view is also part of the 4NT :-) > C: Agreed, it is simply a part of the whole of the Middle Way. And, perhaps, for most sentient beings jumping into the intricacies of the Sutta Anattalakkhana is too soon!!! Furthermore, the sterileness of the Abhidhamma-pitaka is a bit much for the newbie, do you not agree? Finally, do you not agree; there are members here still crawling on the "Path"? > Cheers > Ken O > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104042 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:41 pm Subject: Why is the practice so difficult and arduous? - Ajahn Chah truth_aerator Hello all, Here is an interesting excerpt from Ajahn Chah: "Why is the practice so difficult and arduous? Because of desires. As soon as we sit down to meditate we want to become peaceful. If we didn't want to find peace we wouldn't sit, we wouldn't practice. As soon as we sit down we want peace to be right there, but wanting the mind to be calm makes for confusion, and we feel restless. This is how it goes. So the Buddha says, "Don't speak out of desire, don't sit out of desire, don't walk out of desire,...Whatever you do, don't do it with desire." Desire means wanting. If you don't want to do something you won't do it. If our practice reaches this point we can get quite discouraged. How can we practice? As soon as we sit down there is desire in the mind. It's because of this that the body and mind are difficult to observe. If they are not the self nor belonging to self then who do they belong to? It's difficult to resolve these things, we must rely on wisdom. The Buddha says we must practice with "letting go," isn't it? If we let go then we just don't practice, right?...Because we've let go. Suppose we went to buy some coconuts in the market, and while we were carrying them back someone asked: "What did you buy those coconuts for?" "I bought them to eat." "Are you going to eat the shells as well?" "No." "I don't believe you. If you're not going to eat the shells then why did you buy them also?" Well what do you say? How are you going to answer their question? We practice with desire. If we didn't have desire we wouldn't practice. Practicing with desire is //tanha//. Contemplating in this way can give rise to wisdom, you know. For example, those coconuts: Are you going to eat the shells as well? Of course not. Then why do you take them? Because the time hasn't yet come for you to throw them away. They're useful for wrapping up the coconut in. If, after eating the coconut, you throw the shells away, there is no problem. Our practice is like this. The Buddha said, "Don't act on desire, don't speak from desire, don't eat with desire." Standing, walking, sitting or reclining...whatever...don't do it with desire. This means to do it with detachment. It's just like buying the coconuts from the market. We're not going to eat the shells but it's not yet time to throw them away. We keep them first. This is how the practice is. Concept and Transcendence [*] are co-existent, just like a coconut. The flesh, the husk and the shell are all together. When we buy it we buy the whole lot. If somebody wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells that's their business, we know what we're doing. " - Food for the heart. With metta, Alex #104043 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself dhammasaro Good friend pt, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Ken O and Chuck, > > > K: the condition for sound is space without space, it is not possible to hear. > > ... > > S: I mean, an essential condition for hearing (of sound). I understand Ken O's short-hand, others might not:-) > > Thanks for resurrecting this topic. Apologies for not replying sooner. > > Regarding space (KenO), I thought we've already discussed this in posts 102541, 102618, 102732, 102774. I've kind of resolved that this issue of sound and air is one of the few holes in the usually bulletproof abhidhamma. But if you have some other points to bring regarding space that I'm not aware of, please do. > > > S: I'm not sure whether 'the problem' is the introduction of scientific thinking here or not. > > Not sure. In my understanding, there's no contradiction between abhidhamma, science and common sense when it comes to seeing and smelling given in the Vsm, only when it comes to hearing. > > > S: Also, if you'd like to re-state the question or point to your original message where you raised the point, we can ask this and any others when we visit K.Sujin in Feb. > > I'll try, though I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer. Perhaps I'm making some assumptions that you are not and that's the reason of miscommunication. > > Restatement: > Why is air (or any other medium for sound propagation) not listed as an essential condition for hearing, beside space and those listed in Vsm XV,39: > "Ear-consciousness arises due to ear, sound, aperture and attention."( "Aperture" is the cavity of the ear)? > > Reasoning behind the question: > - in case of seeing the conditions given in Vsm (same chpt) are "eye, visible datum, light and attention", so here we have visible datum, the eye and the light which "carries" visible datum to the eye. > > - in case of smelling Vsm gives "nose, odour, air and attention". Again we have the odour, nose and air which "carries" the odour to the nose. > > - but in case of sound we have no "carrier". Moreover, in modern terms, sound cannot exist without a medium - i.e. vibrations at the sound-source cannot reach the ear without a medium - (molecules of) air, water, etc, that would also vibrate and carry that vibration from the source to the ear. I see no contradictions between abhidhamma and modern understanding of seeing and smelling though. > > - I agree that space is an essential condition for sound, but so it is also for seeing and smelling, so it is not a distinguishing factor. Further, space is not a medium as explained in other posts, so space doesn't seem relevant in this discussion. > > Please let me know if this is still unclear (I tried avoiding scientific and acoustic terms as possible). > > Best wishes > pt > C: Yes, it is unclear to me what DSG and your definition of "space" is. [bummers] As you wrote in part: Please let me know if this is still unclear (I tried avoiding scientific and acoustic terms as possible). Sincere warm thanks for your continued help. metta (maitri), Chuck #104044 From: "philofillet" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:25 pm Subject: Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. philofillet Hi Scott > P: "...I've posted a lot of obnoxious reservations about A.S's approach (and I must say my reservations get firmer by the day)...And Sarah and Jon's generosity and patience speaks volumes for the benefits of listening to their teacher..." > > Scott: I found myself thinking about these elements of your post. It's clear that you can't quite escape the ethereal gravitational pull of this site. As you say, you keep returning to post your 'reservations.' I have to say that I can't quite fathom the point of having to do so. I mean if one disagrees then one simply disagrees. If there are places for like-minded individuals to discuss, why not go there? (I'm not suggesting you do, this is a rhetorical question.) I mean, I guess it allows others to discuss aspects of Dhamma antithetical to your views, but why the compulsion to keep returning simply to say you disagree? Inner conflict, I guess. Ph: It's interesting. I've talked about this with Tep, I think. He has managed (so far) to escape what you very correctly call the gravitational pull of this place. I guess it's the pull of the intensity of people's interest in Dhamma plus their knowledge of the texts plus the friendliness and generosity of people (espcially Sarah, in my case.) That's a powerful combination. And there probably is an element of correct understanding at work that understands that understanding (panna) must reach the paramattha level, at some point, for liberation to occur. So there is an element of understanding that things that are discussed here and rarely if ever discussed elsewhere in the dhamma e-world *must* be understood, sooner or later. But then I run into this idea that this kind of deep understanding must be first and forefront and I think that's wrong, we must grow into it very gradually. So I would say as I said above DSG helped to open a channel for understanding that isn't opened elsewhere, and there is some kind of wise understanding at work in me that knows it is best not to plunge in to that channel, but to keep it open and approach it tentatively now and then. I watched 2001 the other day and I keep thinking of that black obelisk and the way the apes respond when they come across it, kind of shying away, then running up to touch it, finally, and leaping away screeching, then touching it again, longer, and then rubbing their hands lustfully all over it. I think I am a touch it and back away screeching kind of ape and you guys like to get right in their and get your paws all over the obelisk. As I said before, I find it hard to fathom that it is possible to deal with the deep teachings without kind of contaminating them with our hungry minds in a way that could possibly (I don't know, but I suspect it is the case) cloud the potential to have corret understandings. I can't fathom the idea that there are people who don't seek comfort from the Dhamma, that notion is just beyond me. That's my problem, but it paints the way I see DSG, I see that use of the deep teachings and deep topics for comfort, for mental pleasure. I'm sorry to keep saying that since it could be wrong, but I can't get by it right now, thats my problem. And in any case, the rapid progression to those topics is wrong. I'll always remember a newcomer to Dhamma coming to DSG and being told by Ken H (a very good person, no doubt, as I've often said) that the first thing that *must* be understood is that there are only dhammas, only nama and rupa. That's really wrong, really contrary to the way the Buddha taught the Dhamma, and while Ken H is the extreme example of wrongness on this point (in my opinion which is of course correct) it exists in varying degrees in everyone who is under the influence of A.S's teaching. So yes, having seen that, and understanding that it won't change, I should indeed just move on for good, and maybe this post will be the condition for that, who knows? > > And, furthermore, I'd say that patience or generosity only 'speak volumes' for themselves, as it were. The Dhamma is the teacher. Should these arise in someone, I really don't think that a 'teacher' can be cited as the source. Listening to Dhamma and discussing Dhamma with good friends can both be conditions for kusala. You make a point of communicating your desire for great siila. And of your sense that you are bereft of such great siila. You make a point of asserting that you can make yourself have more siila. Ph: I've not communicated successfully on this point, I guess. And that's because I post without discussing. I never, never would say that I can make myself have more sila. The Buddha's teaching about conventional aspects is the very powerful conditional force that when listened to, reflected on and followed (in those cases that there is a kind of teaching that can be followed, that is not always the case, I rarely find it in SN, for example, but often in AN) will lead to dhammas being conditioned that lead to the sense of a person having sila. ANd that sense of a person having sila is itself a powerful condition, one that I am more and more convinced the Buddha guides us to make good use of before it is eventually dropped when deeper and strong panna takes over, something like that. I find it hard to believe I have ever asserted that I can make myself have more sila. It's the Dhamma that does it, as condition. So when I posted last time about being blissed out about being an increasingly virtuous person, of course I understood that there is sakkaya ditthi at work. >>>Maybe if you stopped looking to outside sources and stopped trying to force everything, things would be different. It's difficult when there is such intense polarization. Ph: My approach to Sila is much subtler that trying to force everything, I think. It's fascinating. I (so to speak) am a work in progress, shaped by listening to, reflecting on, and following the teaching of the Buddha. I will tell you how it's going in more detail someday. Thanks Scott. I continue to suspect that I will be a proper discussion partner someday, and I hope this post of yours will condition a proper break from DSG so I can stop commiting wrong speech the way I do until the day comes when I am ready to discuss. > You've gone through a development of views, as does everyone. I've seen you swing from fervent idealization to fervent devaluation in relation to Kh. Sujin. Neither end of that pole is desirable, in my opinion. Maybe you thought that the teacher could make things different for you and found that she didn't at all and got all disappointed. I'd suggest that seeking a teacher in the form of a person is not really the way to go. Ph: Yes, actually I'm pretty firm on this. I've come under the influence of A.S, Thanissaro Bhikkhu, some Burmese Sayadaws, Ayya Khema and before I came across the Buddha's teaching some new age kind of teachers and I have always been able to see the pros and cons in the teachers. I think I'm lucky on this point, that shows wisdom is flexible and still developing. > > I've gone through a development of views as well. I'd characterize it, in part, as moving from a sort of excited attachment (like yours) to a more detached consideration. I used to be caught up in discussions with, say, antagonists, until I'd made sense of each of the views that were being presented. Now, I don't feel inclined to repeat the same things to those whose views don't change. I feel less inclined to try to discuss on the basis of agreement/disagreement. I'd say that the meaning of anatta has been of major influence for me but didn't really do anything to understand it the way I do. I'd not say that I can influence you either. Dhamma is understood by dhammas and thought about later, also dhammas - you know the story. Ph: I continue to be kind of attracted by you Scott. Maybe because we're the same age, Canadian, both deep into Dhamma, both keen on Pali. (Though obviouslyI don't share the need to get the dicretics (?) right when writing it out, the spelling) I don't know why. But I look forward to discussing with you in the future. > What do you think, man? Try to resist the urge to reply, Phil. Do not reply. Okay, go ahead and reply. No, don't. ;-) Ph: I did. And a good final post for the decade, I'd say! Metta, Phil #104045 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:53 pm Subject: Rebirth Being was "Hard in training, easy in battle!"... dhammasaro Good friend ken O, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear colette > > > > >Yes, if a person studies Nama and Rupa they are studying them at the present moment, and this is a two dimensional reality which exists 100% of the time. Yes, that two dimensional reality is only an ILLUSION that exists 100% of the time. > > > >How do you transcend that ILLUSION? > > Ken O: > When you hit your head on the wall, is the hurt real or illusion. The hurt is real but head we have is an illusion. The colour, the hardness, the temperate characteristics of the head are all real but the head is not real. When we go rebirth to another being and have another head, this another head would not be the same as the head we had now. But the colour, hardness and temperate would still be real and have characteristics. > > > Cheers > Ken O > C: Ken O: When we go rebirth to another being and have another head, this another head would not be the same as the head we had now. C: Would you go into detail on this rebirth being? Warm thanks for your continued help. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104046 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:04 pm Subject: Body Citta was [dsg] Re: awareness dhammasaro Good friend Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > ... snip > > KO: Yes. > > ... snip > > Second distinction that each senses has their specific function. For eg, when our eye is hurt by a bright light, that hurt could only be experienced by body citta and not seeing citta, seeing citta just see. > > ... snip > > > Cheers > Ken O > C: Please give clarifying details on the "body citta" as you wrote: "...hurt could only be experienced by body citta and not seeing citta, seeing citta just see." Warm thanks for your help. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104047 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:07 pm Subject: Cittakkhana was conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas dhammasaro Good friend Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Vince > > ... snip > > KO: Citta does not need time to determine its arising, presence and ceassation. Citta does not have the idea in terms of past, present and future, though it could take such objects. Citta does not need to be supported by time. Its arising, presence and cessation is basically due to causes and conditions. Since it is not related or supported by time, it is not useful to focus or even think about it. It is more of a philisophical interest rather than dhamma interest. > C: Would you please give a detailed explanation how cittakkhana agrees with your teaching above? > ... snip > Warm thanks for your continued help. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104048 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself ptaus1 Hi Chuck, > C: Yes, it is unclear to me what DSG and your definition of "space" is. [bummers] > My usage of "space" is in conventional sense, as in distance from A to B. When it comes to ultimate, afaik, from discussions so far, there are two ultimate meanings of space as a rupa: 1. the very, very small space that separates rupa kalapas. 2. non-conditioned space (non-conditioned space element not being the same as unconditioned nibbana element) First is straight-forward to understand I think, second is a bit hard to explain, though I believe that the conventional term "space" as I use it refers to this non-conditioned space element, so I don't think there's a big difference between conventional and non-conditioned one, though of course one is a concept, while the other can be discerned through insight. If you'd like to go into this further, there's a topic in Useful Posts entitled "Space", and you'll find a lot of posts there. I'm not familiar with all of them - but last 5 or so I think directly relate to this ultimate meanings of space. Best wishes pt #104049 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself dhammasaro Good friend pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > > C: Yes, it is unclear to me what DSG and your definition of "space" is. [bummers] > > > > My usage of "space" is in conventional sense, as in distance from A to B. > > When it comes to ultimate, afaik, from discussions so far, there are two ultimate meanings of space as a rupa: > 1. the very, very small space that separates rupa kalapas. > 2. non-conditioned space (non-conditioned space element not being the same as unconditioned nibbana element) > > First is straight-forward to understand I think, second is a bit hard to explain, though I believe that the conventional term "space" as I use it refers to this non-conditioned space element, so I don't think there's a big difference between conventional and non-conditioned one, though of course one is a concept, while the other can be discerned through insight. > > If you'd like to go into this further, there's a topic in Useful Posts entitled "Space", and you'll find a lot of posts there. I'm not familiar with all of them - but last 5 or so I think directly relate to this ultimate meanings of space. > > Best wishes > pt > C: pt: If you'd like to go into this further, there's a topic in Useful Posts entitled "Space", and you'll find a lot of posts there. I'm not familiar with all of them - but last 5 or so I think directly relate to this ultimate meanings of space. C: 1. Yes, there are 37 threads there. 2. Perhaps, ad nauseum to all, I did not find the answer to my question to you about DSG!!! 3. To you, pt, as you wrote: "My usage of "space" is in conventional sense, as in distance from A to B." To you "space" is simply a distance concept, yes? 4. On what you wrote: "When it comes to ultimate, afaik, from discussions so far, there are two ultimate meanings of space as a rupa: 1. the very, very small space that separates rupa kalapas. 2. non-conditioned space (non-conditioned space element not being the same as unconditioned nibbana element)" As you have the time, please provide relevant Tipitaka references. Warm thanks for your continued help. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104050 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:16 pm Subject: Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. ptaus1 Dear Sarah, > S: Nina and others replied, I believe, but I meant to also refer you to the following in "Useful Posts": > > >Rupa13- intrinsic/specific qualities - desirable/undesirable > > You'll find lots more.... > > Please raise anything further of interest. Thanks. Having gone through the whole rupa13, I'm now again confused as people on occasions seem to be saying slightly different things there than what I understood. Perhaps we can discuss this in a bit more minuscule detail than usual, especially when it comes to the term "object". Here's as I see it at the moment, please correct me if I'm wrong: 1. When sense-consciousness arises, it has a rupa as object. This object, at this moment is not gold or dung yet, but it is just tactile experience/object for example - warmth or hardness for example. It will become gold or dung much later in the cognition process. 2. As I understood Nina, it is vipaka condition that gives the characteristic of pleasantness or unpleasantness (not referring to the feeling) to that particular sense-citta. Conclusions that follow from this: (a) It is a/kusala vipaka that conditions whether at that moment the citta will experience pleasant or unpleasant aspect of the rupa kalapa - for example, hardness for unpleasant, warmth for pleasant (again, I'm not referring to feeling here). (b) It is not a/kusala vipaka that determines whtether at that moment we are touching gold or dung. Gold/dung is put in front of us to touch at that moment by some wholly different condition(s) - I think only temperature, but am not sure if any other conditions play a part there, but I think kamma and vipaka conditions shouldn't play any part in it. Basically, I'm more interested in your understanding of this topic than in the quotes, because all the quotes in rupa13 don't seem very precise and can be interpreted in different ways. Best wishes and happy new year :) pt #104051 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself ptaus1 Hi Chuck, > C: 2. Perhaps, ad nauseum to all, I did not find the answer to my question to you about DSG!!! Well, I don't think there's such thing as DSG view on space :) I guess Sarah and KenO will have to reply to you what they mean exactly. > To you "space" is simply a distance concept, yes? Yes, in this particular case that's as simple as I can put it. You can also call it 3-dimensional space as understood in science, but it is still a conventional designation. > "When it comes to ultimate, afaik, from discussions so far, there are two ultimate meanings of space as a rupa: > 1. the very, very small space that separates rupa kalapas. > > 2. non-conditioned space (non-conditioned space element not being the same as unconditioned nibbana element)" This is the understanding I got from following the discussion here over the last year or so. The last several posts in the Space section in UP should give the quotes for this. If you still don't feel inclined to research them, I'll try and make a summary for you tomorrow (it's new year here in 6 hours, so i have to leave). Best wishes and happy new year :) pt #104052 From: "Christine" Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:12 pm Subject: How are you celebrating New Year's Eve while keeping Sila? christine_fo... Hello all, I wonder how members are celebrating New Years' Eve while keeping Sila? Bhante suggested to the laypeople supporting Dhammagiri Hermitage that they may like to consider celebrating New Year's Eve in a wholesome manner. So this is the programme of activities at Dhammagiri on New Years' Eve (Thursday 31st December). Which is tonight in Eastern Australia. There is no requirement to take Eight Precepts. People may do so privately if they wish. People may come earlier in the evening to meditate, or meet Dhamma friends if they wish - arrive from 7.30 p.m. onwards. Group Meditation begins from 9.00 p.m. 'All Night' Meditation is available for those wishing to do so. There will be a special Walking Procession from the Dhamma Hall through the forest to the High Point, where there will be Chanting at midnight. Plenty of time will be allowed for the Walk - it is not to be a fitness test. The Walking Procession will commence at 11.00 p.m. We will eat our main meal before we arrive at the Hermitage ~ dark chocolate, jubes, marshmallows etc. and special fruit juices will be available at Dhammagiri. Ordinary candles will not be used in the procession up the hill, because of the fire danger level. It should be a fine evening, and I'm looking forward to the experience. with metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it --- #104053 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:00 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 16. nilovg Dear friends, When more understanding of cittas and their accompanying mental factors is developed, confidence in the benefit of kusala will grow. When there is the direct realization of the truth of non-self, one will clearly see that kusala citta arises because of its own conditions, that there is no person or self who performs it. Then kusala will be purer, and moral conduct will become enduring. The understanding of the truth of non-self however, is the result of a gradual development, it cannot be realized within a short time. It is the development of direct understanding of the mental phenomena and physical phenomena of life. This is a way of kusala kamma which is included in mental development. Selfishness, envy, stinginess, anger, conceit and other defilements disturb our social life. Such defilements motivate us to engage in wrong action and wrong speech. In this way we harm both ourselves and others. If we train ourselves to live according to the principles of loving-kindness, compassion, tolerance and gentleness, as taught by the Buddha, it is to the benefit of ourselves and society. At the moment of the performance of wholesomeness, the citta is pure, without defilements; there is no attachment, no aversion or hate, no ignorance. We read in the Dhammapada (verses 3-5): He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me, the hatred of those who harbour such thoughts is not appeased. He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me, the hatred of those who do not harbour such thoughts is appeased. Hatreds never cease by hatred in this world; by love alone they cease. This is an ancient principle. We cannot live up to such high principles unless there is the development of understanding which will eventually lead to the eradication of defilements. We can, however, begin to apply ourselves to the ways of wholesomeness we are able to perform at this moment. All kinds of wholesomeness which are included in the threefold classification of generosity, good moral conduct and mental development are to the welfare of ourselves as well as our fellow beings. ******* Nina. #104054 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammapada Verse 212 and No. 354 Uraga-Jataka. nilovg Dear Han, Thank you for sharing your personal experiences. Op 28-dec-2009, om 13:50 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Now, I am not strong anymore, physically and mentally. When I read > Dhammapada Verse 212 I am moved. When I read Uraga-Jataka I am > moved. I am moved by the answer by the mother in the story. She > said: Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go. I had not > asked my children to come but they came. My family will not ask me > to leave, but I will leave. > > It is all very sad, Nina. > > I only hope I will see the Dhamma light before I die. ------- N: It is the truth of life and that is dukkha. As I mentioned before, when asking Kh Sujin about preparing for a great loss, she will not hear about this, very wisely. She explains that it is better to investigate what is appearing now, like seeing. We take it so much for my seeing. We never know what the next moment will bring. It may be great sadness and distress, but alo these are realities arising because of conditions, they do not belong to us. The Dhamma light: even intellectual understanding begins to see the Dhamma light. If we had never heard the dhamma, we would be completely ignorant about life, death, persons. Best wishes for the coming year, Nina. #104055 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. sarahprocter... Dear pt, A good topic, thx for coming back to it.... --- On Thu, 31/12/09, ptaus1 wrote: >Perhaps we can discuss this in a bit more minuscule detail than usual, especially when it comes to the term "object". Here's as I see it at the moment, please correct me if I'm wrong: >1. When sense-consciousness arises, it has a rupa as object. This object, at this moment is not gold or dung yet, but it is just tactile experience/object for example - warmth or hardness for example. It will become gold or dung much later in the cognition process. ... S: Yes, body-consciousness just experiences tangible object, such as warmth or hardness, as you suggest - no idea of gold, dung or anything else. ... >2. As I understood Nina, it is vipaka condition that gives the characteristic of pleasantness or unpleasantness (not referring to the feeling) to that particular sense-citta. .... S: Let's put it this way: (past) kamma conditions the body-consciousness (and accompanying mental factors, including pleasant or unpleasant feeling) to experience a pleasant/desirable or unpleasant/undesirable tangible object at that moment. The body-consciousness itself (and accompanying mental factors) is a vipaka citta (and vipaka cetasikas). The pleaant/unpleasant tangible object is of course a rupa. If it is a kusala vipaka citta (result of kusala kamma), then the body consciousness will be accompanied by pleasant feeling and will experience a pleasant/desirable object. If it is an akusala vipaka citta, it will, of course, experience an undesirable object. ... >Conclusions that follow from this: >(a) It is a/kusala vipaka that conditions whether at that moment the citta will experience pleasant or unpleasant aspect of the rupa kalapa - for example, hardness for unpleasant, warmth for pleasant (again, I'm not referring to feeling here). ... S: a/kusala kamma that conditions the body consciousness to experience a pleasant/unpleasant rupa. I wouldn't say "pleasant or unpleasant aspect of the rupa kalapa". We may touch the same so-called key-board and some will experience a pleasant rupa and others not. Furthermore, each moment of touch a different rupa is experienced. ... >(b) It is not a/kusala vipaka that determines whtether at that moment we are touching gold or dung. Gold/dung is put in front of us to touch at that moment by some wholly different condition(s) - I think only temperature, but am not sure if any other conditions play a part there, but I think kamma and vipaka conditions shouldn't play any part in it. .... S: Gold and dung are concepts. At a moment of touch, only hardness/softness, temperature or motion is experienced, as a result of kamma. Yes, rupas outside the body are experienced by temperature only, but at the moment of touch, when hardness is experienced, it makes no difference whether it's the hardness of the leg or the hardness of gold. Hardness (pathavi dhatu) is just hardness. ... >Basically, I'm more interested in your understanding of this topic than in the quotes, because all the quotes in rupa13 don't seem very precise and can be interpreted in different ways. ... S: I'm glad you said that otherwise I'd have Phil suggesting the discussion is pointless without any quotes:-)) ... >Best wishes and happy new year :) ... S: To you and all too :) Happy to discuss further.... Metta Sarah ======= #104056 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 4 factors for stream entry nilovg Dear Alex, Op 29-dec-2009, om 19:39 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > About 4 factors for stream entry. > > As to 3rd step of "yoniso manasikaro" , I have a question: > > Is it done once (or few times, until it is intellectually > understood). Or it is done many times over and over. In the latter > case, it *is* a form of practice. Like many subjects described in VsM. -------- N: Only once or twice is not enough. Considering carefully what one has heard, and applying it to the present reality, any reality that appears. ------- > > A: As to 4th Step: "Practice of Dhamma according to the Dhamma". > Literally taking it could imply the whole path of sense restraint, > moderation in eating, wakefulness and alertness, abandoning > hindrances, developing Jhana and so on and so forth. ------- N: Dhammaanudhamma-pa.tipanna, as we read in the co. to the Parinibbaanasutta: . Sense restraint, moderation etc,. all these can be practised with right understanding of naama and ruupa. NIna. #104057 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Role of spirituality in generating workplace happiness nilovg Dear Rajesh, Op 28-dec-2009, om 12:43 heeft raj1mongia2 het volgende geschreven: > Please post your views on "role of spirituality in generating > workplace happiness". ------- N: Develop mettaa and karu.naa. This is actually, the development of kusala through body, speech and mind. We all know that this cannot be done on command. For example, when someone else does not respond to our good intentions it may be difficult not to have aversion, which is akusala. Understanding more about one's different cittas is indispensable. Otherwise we take for kusala what is akusala. We take for kindness what is in reality a wish to become popular. This is a form of lobha, attachment, selfishness. Through the study of the Abhidhamma we learn more details about what we call the mind. What we learn can be applied in our daily life. Nina. #104058 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How are you celebrating New Year's Eve while keeping Sila? sarahprocter... Hi Chris, Thx for sharing! --- On Thu, 31/12/09, Christine wrote: >I wonder how members are celebrating New Years' Eve while keeping Sila? ... S: We usually celebrate the New Year in with sleep, sometimes get woken up by some fireworks, sleep more, then get up for an early morning hike to the beach and enjoy what some would call "quiet seclusion":-)) Actually, usually Hong Kong's Judo association also go early to Big Wave Bay on New Year's morning for a group practice and swim in their white clothes, so it's quite a spectacle. Of course, we'd say regardless of the kind of celebration, there can be awareness anytime....just visible objects, sounds and other rupas experienced through the 5 senses. Have a good evening - it sounds as if it'll be a "memorable" occasion! Let us hear how it goes if you feel inclined to do so. Metta Sarah p.s Thank you, Scott, Phil, Nina and others for all your very touching words. Like Jon, always glad to see you when you return, Chris. Same to Phil, as he knows:-) ======= #104059 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. nilovg Dear Ann, Op 29-dec-2009, om 5:48 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > The reason I ask is that it comes in the series of 3 that includes > "disinterest in seeing noble ones, disinterest in listening to > their teachings and a fault-finding mentality [adassanakamyata > ariyadhammassa, asotukamyata, upaarambhacittata]. If it relates > specifically to disinterest in seeing noble ones and listening to > their teachings, then it seems close to ditthi and lack of > confidence in the teachings. If it is more general, then it seems > akin to dosa and relates to all of the all of the moments of > critical thoughts etc that arise in a day. This little analysis > (clearly "thinking" only!) is clearly oversimplistic. Perhaps you > or Nina could say more about upaarambhacittata. -------- Book of Analysis (Vibhanga book of the abhidhamma), Ch 17, Analysis of Small Items, 934, gives the three you refer to above. As to absence to hear the true Dhamma: the four foundations of mindfulness, etc., enumerating the factors leading to enlightenment. No 3: a reproachful state of mind: The co, the Dispeller of Delusion, p. 259, upaarambhacittataa: censorious mindedness. Thus this is siaid of someone who all the time finds fault with true Dhamma, and this repeatedly so. He will keep on despising and reviling someone who explains true Dhamma. Nina. #104060 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- On Tue, 29/12/09, Ken O wrote: >>Attanuditthi is not just wrong view, it also includes conceit. >... >>S: I don't think so. Conceit is not ditthi. . >KO: Yes I know conceit is not a ditthi. I am guessing on attanuditthi basing on anatta as opposite of atta. I could be very wrong here. I appreciate if you have any text reference explaining this term as my dicitionary I have, does not provide much help. ... S: It is the same as attavaadupaadaana, as I understand. With regard to the 4 upaadaana, the first kaamupaadaana, does not include any di.t.thi, whereas the last 3 are all associated with di.t.thi or one kind or other. See "Dispeller" 846: "The remaining three kinds of clinging are in brief simply [wrong] view." These three upaadaana are all eradicated at the stage of sotappati-magga, but conceit is only eradicated by the arahat, as you know. ... >... >S: A self, not a thing like a car. We don't take a car for being oneself, >even though we may take it for being a whole, some thing, i.e. attanuditthi (though as Jon explained, usually when we think about a car, there's no view involved, just like when an animal or child thinks about an object.) >. KO: I also find it difficult to explain on this why when we take concepts as being, it is sakkaya ditthi. Sakkaya dithhi is not just about self, it is also personality view or being view. Car and self are also mental constructs, not real. We cannot say when we think about a car, there is no view involved, there could be wrong view because car is not a reality, is just a mental construct. ... S: We can think about a car or a person with or without wrong view, with kusala or akusala cittas too. To give an obvious example, when we think about people with metta, there is no wrong view at such moments. ... >When an animal or child see a concept, they are full of wrong view because they do not understand the characteristics of reality. ... S: On the contrary, although the latent tendency to wrong view is there of course, there is no wrong view arising, because they don't have any ideas about the nature of reality. This is why the latent tendencies are dangerous, like "microbes" - they can manifest anytime. It's like someone with a drug addiction who doesn't have their drug at this moment. It doesn't mean there's no addiction. Can you (or anyone else) find the sutta (MN?) which touches on this - about the baby without wrong views arising... ... >Only Arahants understand clearly car as a mental object and not a reality. The car we see in a magazine or in real life is just colours as visual object and concepts as in thinking. When we take concepts as a reality, our conventional mind which is so condition will think it as a being on top of the wholeness which the mind construct. Just like a house we live in, we feel attach to it as though it is a being. ... S: I don't think we take a house or car for a being! We may take them for 'something', a 'whole', but not for a being, surely? Not only arahats, but all ariyans have no more wrong view about what is seen and heard. Yes, when we take concepts as reality, there is wrong view involved, but most the time when we read magazines or think about our homes, there's just ignorance, like for the children. ... >Wholeness is just attanuditthi and not sakkayaditthi, sakkayaditthi is placing a personality on the wholeness. ... S: Sakkayaditthi is a (wrong) personality belief when one takes any of the khandhas for being oneself, to be in oneself, outside oneself, or belonging to oneself. When one takes the magazine or house to be real, it's attanuditthi, but no personality view involved. Metta Sarah ======== #104061 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself dhammasaro Good friend pt, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > > > C: 2. Perhaps, ad nauseum to all, I did not find the answer to my question to you about DSG!!! > > Well, I don't think there's such thing as DSG view on space :) I guess Sarah and KenO will have to reply to you what they mean exactly. > > > To you "space" is simply a distance concept, yes? > > Yes, in this particular case that's as simple as I can put it. You can also call it 3-dimensional space as understood in science, but it is still a conventional designation. C: The "space" is not a simple word!!! Evidently, you did not read the earlier message number: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/103973 It began as: C: The word, "space" is a rather nebulous word. When it is used, it should be clear what definition is used. Otherwise, it leads to continued mis-understanding and needless debating. ... > pt: > > "When it comes to ultimate, afaik, from discussions so far, there are two ultimate meanings of space as a rupa: > > 1. the very, very small space that separates rupa kalapas. > > > > 2. non-conditioned space (non-conditioned space element not being the same as unconditioned nibbana element)" > > This is the understanding I got from following the discussion here over the last year or so. The last several posts in the Space section in UP should give the quotes for this. If you still don't feel inclined to research them, I'll try and make a summary for you tomorrow (it's new year here in 6 hours, so i have to leave). C: 1. I perused those messages!!! 2. Please provide the Tipitaka references to support your above statements. > > Best wishes and happy new year :) > pt > FWIW, I am a very serious Dhamma-vinaya student!!! I do not appreciate GIGO!!! metta (maitri), Chuck #104062 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:52 am Subject: Re: How are you celebrating New Year's Eve while keeping Sila? dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > > Hello all, > > I wonder how members are celebrating New Years' Eve while keeping Sila? > > Bhante suggested to the laypeople supporting Dhammagiri Hermitage that they may like to consider celebrating New Year's Eve in a wholesome manner. So this is the programme of activities at Dhammagiri on New Years' Eve (Thursday 31st December). Which is tonight in Eastern Australia. > > There is no requirement to take Eight Precepts. People may do so privately if they wish. > > People may come earlier in the evening to meditate, or meet Dhamma friends if they wish - arrive from 7.30 p.m. onwards. > > Group Meditation begins from 9.00 p.m. 'All Night' Meditation is available for those wishing to do so. > > There will be a special Walking Procession from the Dhamma Hall through the forest to the High Point, where there will be Chanting at midnight. > > Plenty of time will be allowed for the Walk - it is not to be a fitness test. The Walking Procession will commence at 11.00 p.m. > > We will eat our main meal before we arrive at the Hermitage ~ dark chocolate, jubes, marshmallows etc. and special fruit juices will be available at Dhammagiri. > > Ordinary candles will not be used in the procession up the hill, because of the fire danger level. > > It should be a fine evening, and I'm looking forward to the experience. > > with metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > ---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it --- > C: I spend it in solitude. #104063 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:56 am Subject: Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. sarahprocter... Dear Ann, Thank you also for your kind and touching words. I'm always very happy to know you're reading the messages so carefully and you always pick-up on subtle points. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: ... > Each time I go into this site I find so many useful reminders that catch my attention and clarify things that I may have been thinking of or have in the past. It is often like a daily tonic. So, thank you to you and Jon, Nina and all who keep these discussions going. Anumodana. ... S: "A daily tonic" - yes, it's often like that for me too... .. > I liked the quotes you chose for your "10 years on in Samsara" message. Your interspersed comments are all good reminders > > One question that came to mind is in relation to upaarambhacittata (pts:"a carping disposition", i.e looking for flaws)]. Does this refer to a fault-finding / carping disposition generally, or in relation to thinking about the teachings of the Buddha? ... S: I see that Nina has just responded, so I'll take a look later in case I have anything more to add. I thought someone might pick up on this point (glad you did!)... Very best wishes for a healthy, happy and wise New Year. Look forward to seeing you in Bkk! Metta Sarah ====== #104064 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:03 am Subject: Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Mike > > > By the way, I've noticed that the term > > 'accumulations' is often used in the group's > > correspondence. Does this refer to vipaka? > > Sankhaara? Both? Neither? > > Yes, there are some terms we have been using for so > long that we forget they are not standard use! Thanks > for raising this. > > "Accumulations" as I used it refers to those various > tendencies we all have that make up the distinct > personality and character by which we are > conventionally known. For example, our preferences > for particular tastes or colours, our good and bad > qualities, the way we walk and talk and so on. Being > easily angered or being interested in the dhamma would > be other examples. They are called accumulations > because, of course, they have been accumulated during > the past. > > The defilements (kilesas) are those akusala > inclinations we have accumulated. They come in > different strengths, the subtle ones being the latent > tendencies referred to in Kom's post. > > Actually, since every citta is conditioned (in among > other ways) by the citta which immediately precedes > it, each citta contains the sum of all previous > cittas. So in fact there is much more that is > accumulated than the tendencies I have referred to. > > I hope this makes sense. > > Jonothan > C: Quote: "Yes, there are some terms we have been using for so long that we forget they are not standard use!" No thing has changed in ten years, heh? Sigh... peace... metta (matri), Chuck #104065 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Ken O, > > --- On Tue, 29/12/09, Ken O wrote: > >>Attanuditthi is not just wrong view, it also includes conceit. > >... > >>S: I don't think so. Conceit is not ditthi. > . > >KO: Yes I know conceit is not a ditthi. I am guessing on attanuditthi basing on anatta as opposite of atta. I could be very wrong here. I appreciate if you have any text reference explaining this term as my dicitionary I have, does not provide much help. > ... > S: It is the same as attavaadupaadaana, as I understand. > > With regard to the 4 upaadaana, the first kaamupaadaana, does not include any di.t.thi, whereas the last 3 are all associated with di.t.thi or one kind or other. > > See "Dispeller" 846: > > "The remaining three kinds of clinging are in brief simply [wrong] view." These three upaadaana are all eradicated at the stage of sotappati-magga, but conceit is only eradicated by the arahat, as you know. > ... > >... > >S: A self, not a thing like a car. We don't take a car for being oneself, >even though we may take it for being a whole, some thing, i.e. attanuditthi (though as Jon explained, usually when we think about a car, there's no view involved, just like when an animal or child thinks about an object.) > >. > > KO: I also find it difficult to explain on this why when we take concepts as being, it is sakkaya ditthi. Sakkaya dithhi is not just about self, it is also personality view or being view. Car and self are also mental constructs, not real. We cannot say when we think about a car, there is no view involved, there could be wrong view because car is not a reality, is just a mental construct. > ... > S: We can think about a car or a person with or without wrong view, with kusala or akusala cittas too. To give an obvious example, when we think about people with metta, there is no wrong view at such moments. > ... > >When an animal or child see a concept, they are full of wrong view because they do not understand the characteristics of reality. > ... > S: On the contrary, although the latent tendency to wrong view is there of course, there is no wrong view arising, because they don't have any ideas about the nature of reality. This is why the latent tendencies are dangerous, like "microbes" - they can manifest anytime. It's like someone with a drug addiction who doesn't have their drug at this moment. It doesn't mean there's no addiction. > > Can you (or anyone else) find the sutta (MN?) which touches on this - about the baby without wrong views arising... > ... > >Only Arahants understand clearly car as a mental object and not a reality. The car we see in a magazine or in real life is just colours as visual object and concepts as in thinking. When we take concepts as a reality, our conventional mind which is so condition will think it as a being on top of the wholeness which the mind construct. Just like a house we live in, we feel attach to it as though it > is a being. > ... > S: I don't think we take a house or car for a being! We may take them for 'something', a 'whole', but not for a being, surely? > > Not only arahats, but all ariyans have no more wrong view about what is seen and heard. Yes, when we take concepts as reality, there is wrong view involved, but most the time when we read magazines or think about our homes, there's just ignorance, like for the children. > ... > >Wholeness is just attanuditthi and not sakkayaditthi, sakkayaditthi is placing a personality on the wholeness. > ... > S: Sakkayaditthi is a (wrong) personality belief when one takes any of the khandhas for being oneself, to be in oneself, outside oneself, or belonging to oneself. When one takes the magazine or house to be real, it's attanuditthi, but no personality view involved. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > C: You wrote, in part: S: ...Not only arahats, but all ariyans have no more wrong view about what is seen and heard... C: Good friend Sarah, are you writing that Ariyans (not yet Arahant) have no wrong view? Please cite. Warm thanks for your help. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104066 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. sarahprocter... Dear Ann (& Nina), Let me quote a little more from the Sammohavinodanaii, the commentary to the Vibhanga (PTS, translated as "Dispeller of Delusion"), 2464ff: > The reason I ask is that it comes in the series of 3 that includes > "disinterest in seeing noble ones, disinterest in listening to > their teachings and a fault-finding mentality [adassanakamyata > ariyadhammassa, asotukamyata, upaarambhacittata] . If it relates > specifically to disinterest in seeing noble ones and listening to > their teachings, then it seems close to ditthi and lack of > confidence in the teachings. ... S: Yes, I think so to, and this is why in the Vibhanga (and its comy), it comes after anaddaayanaa (disregarding), asiilya.m (unconcern), acittikaaro (lack of deference), assaddhiya.m (faithlessness), assaddahanaa (disbelieving), anokappanaa (unrelying) and anabhippasaado (distrust). "Saddhamma.m asotukaamataa (unwillingness to hear the good Law): the 37 states partaking of enlightenment are called 'the good Law' (saddhamma); unwillingness to hear that. Anuggahetukaamataa (unwillingness to learn) = na uggahetukaamataa. "Upaarambhacittataa (censorious mindedness) is the state of a censorious mind..." S: At the end of the paragraph, after referring to the qualities of contempt, scorning and 'searching for a weak spot' (randhassa gavesitaa), it gives a good analogy: "Endowed with this a person, just as a repairing tailor when he has spread out the cloth, only looks for the holes, thus besmirches all another's good qualities and only dwells upon his bad qualities." ***** Like Nina, I take all the comments to be closely connected with the teaching of Dhamma. The comy continues to explain what is meant here by ayoniso manasikaaro (unwise bringing to mind): "Ayoniso manasikaaro (unwise bringing to mind) is bringing to mind of what is not the means. Anicce nicca.m (concerning the impermanent as permanent): which occurs concerning an object which is only impermanent thus: 'This is permanent.' So also with dukkhe sukkha.m (concerning the painful as pleasant) and so on." Then "saccavippa.tikuulena vaa (or by what is contrary to truth) by what is not in conformity with the four Truths". So it all relates to the hearing, considering and understanding of the Truths, as I read it. Thanks again for your interest, Ann, and for Nina's comments too. Metta Sarah -------- Nina: Book of Analysis (Vibhanga book of the abhidhamma), Ch 17, Analysis of Small Items, 934, gives the three you refer to above. As to absence to hear the true Dhamma: the four foundations of mindfulness, etc., enumerating the factors leading to enlightenment. No 3: a reproachful state of mind: The co, the Dispeller of Delusion, p. 259, upaarambhacittataa: censorious mindedness. Thus this is siaid of someone who all the time finds fault with true Dhamma, and this repeatedly so. He will keep on despising and reviling someone who explains true Dhamma. Nina. ========= #104067 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. sarahprocter... Good friend Chuck, Ken O & all, --- On Thu, 31/12/09, charlest wrote: >C: You wrote, in part: S: ...Not only arahats, but all ariyans have no more wrong view about what is seen and heard... >C: Good friend Sarah, are you writing that Ariyans (not yet Arahant) have no wrong view? ... S: correct! ... Please cite. ... S: I'm signing off now (getting close to my bed-time!!). Perhaps Ken O or someone else can cite, otherwise another day... Metta Sarah ======== #104068 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Good friend Chuck, Ken O & all, > > --- On Thu, 31/12/09, charlest wrote: > >C: You wrote, in part: > > S: ...Not only arahats, but all ariyans have no more wrong view about what is seen and heard... > > >C: Good friend Sarah, are you writing that Ariyans (not yet Arahant) have no wrong view? > ... > S: correct! > ... > Please cite. > ... > S: I'm signing off now (getting close to my bed-time!!). Perhaps Ken O or someone else can cite, otherwise another day... > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > C: A typical "cop out." Why bother with no answer? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cop_out Oh well, Happy New Year to you and yours. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104069 From: han tun Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammapada Verse 212 and No. 354 Uraga-Jataka. hantun1 Dear Nina, N: It is the truth of life and that is dukkha. As I mentioned before, when asking Kh Sujin about preparing for a great loss, she will not hear about this, very wisely. She explains that it is better to investigate what is appearing now, like seeing. We take it so much for my seeing. We never know what the next moment will bring. It may be great sadness and distress, but alo these are realities arising because of conditions, they do not belong to us. The Dhamma light: even intellectual understanding begins to see the Dhamma light. If we had never heard the dhamma, we would be completely ignorant about life, death, persons. Best wishes for the coming year, Han: Thank you very much, Nina, for your kind words and wise comments. I always take your advice with deepest gratitude. Wishing you and Lodewijk a very Happy New Year 2010 and many more Happy New Years to come. Respectfully, Han #104070 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re "Hard in training, easy in battle!" What martial arts teach us sarahprocter... Good Friends Chuck & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > Four words on what you wrote above! <...> .... S: I know you were writing to Colette with your usual good humour, but let's all try to keep it gentle, friendly and courteous as Ken O was suggesting to another friend. Even when we jest, we can be mindful of the others' feelings, as we never know the circumstances of the people we write to at any time! Anyway, I've been appreciating all your friendly discussions with various friends here....I know this was just part of your banter-style with Colette... **** On our thread, the second part to your qu for which you thought I'd given a "cop out"... CMA, ch 4, p 180: Text: "According to circumstances, it is said, those beyond training experience 44 classes of consciousness, trainees 56, and the rest 54." Guide note: "At the path of stream-entry, the defilements of wrong view and doubt are eradicated; thus the four cittas associated with wrong view and the one citta accompanied by doubt are eliminated. Stream-enterers and once-returners can experience the following 50 cittas, inclusive of the jhanas: 7 unwholesome + 17 wholesome + 23 sense-sphere resultants + 2 adverting + 1 fruition....The 56 cittas mentioned in the text for trainees is arrived at by grouping the three fruitions together and adding the four path cittas." Anyway, wishing everyone a very enjoyable New Year's Eve & New Year's Day, however you wish to spend it. Will write next in 2010 - more concepts....another day, another moment only... Metta Sarah ======= #104071 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:59 am Subject: Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "If I may venture expressing a thought about our thinking 'I wish I were X'..." Scott: I'll leave it to Ken O. to discuss with you Howard. I disagree with too many of the basic assumptions you have stated often and continue to hold to with great tenacity. We'll not get far and there will be no good served to try. For example: H: "...A stream of namas and rupas thought of, within that stream, as 'I' tends to be coherent in the sense of the cittas being kammically interrelated..." Scott: I don't consider that this illusory coherence is relevant in so far as a justification to imagine a 'self' goes. H: "...Though streams of namas and rupas do interact, and making a hard-and-fast separation among them is not fully possible, still distinguishing can properly be done as a matter of convention..." Scott: I consider 'streams of namas and rupas' to simply mean 'self.' I don't consider that thinking of 'streams of namas and rupas' is anything other than thinking of self. I don't consider that 'streams of namas and rupas' 'interact.' H: "...Moral shame and dread are really important, and they are reflexive in application and presuppose the self-other distinction, the shame and regret applying to thoughts, emotions, and actions within THAT stream of namas and rupas..." Scott: I consider the notion of 'reflexivity' to be self-view and to be a form of popular psychology. Hiri and otappa arise with kusala citta. They are mental factors, each with a characteristic and function. They are not to be misunderstood to refer to moralistic thinking about a sinful self. It is, in part, due to the presence of these dhammaa that a moment of consciousness is kusala. And so you see, Howard old bean, there is not much to discuss. ;-) Perhaps Ken O. will take the chance. Sorry, Howard. Sincerely, Scott. #104072 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Ken) - In a message dated 12/31/2009 10:05:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "If I may venture expressing a thought about our thinking 'I wish I were X'..." Scott: I'll leave it to Ken O. to discuss with you Howard. I disagree with too many of the basic assumptions you have stated often and continue to hold to with great tenacity. We'll not get far and there will be no good served to try. ------------------------------------------------------ That's fine. --------------------------------------------------- For example: H: "...A stream of namas and rupas thought of, within that stream, as 'I' tends to be coherent in the sense of the cittas being kammically interrelated..." Scott: I don't consider that this illusory coherence is relevant in so far as a justification to imagine a 'self' goes. ------------------------------------------------------- I don't imagine a self. There is no core. ------------------------------------------------------ H: "...Though streams of namas and rupas do interact, and making a hard-and-fast separation among them is not fully possible, still distinguishing can properly be done as a matter of convention..." Scott: I consider 'streams of namas and rupas' to simply mean 'self.' ------------------------------------------------------------- Fine. I do not. ------------------------------------------------------------ I don't consider that thinking of 'streams of namas and rupas' is anything other than thinking of self. I don't consider that 'streams of namas and rupas' 'interact.' ---------------------------------------------------------- So, we're not communicating, then. (Mm, yeah, that's actually true: We're not.) -------------------------------------------------------- H: "...Moral shame and dread are really important, and they are reflexive in application and presuppose the self-other distinction, the shame and regret applying to thoughts, emotions, and actions within THAT stream of namas and rupas..." Scott: I consider the notion of 'reflexivity' to be self-view and to be a form of popular psychology. -------------------------------------------------------- Uh, huh. ------------------------------------------------------ Hiri and otappa arise with kusala citta. They are mental factors, each with a characteristic and function. They are not to be misunderstood to refer to moralistic thinking about a sinful self. ------------------------------------------------------- I don't think of selves, and I don't use such terminology as "sinful." -------------------------------------------------------- It is, in part, due to the presence of these dhammaa that a moment of consciousness is kusala. And so you see, Howard old bean, there is not much to discuss. ;-) --------------------------------------------------------- Guess not. I apologize for my mistake in trying. -------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps Ken O. will take the chance. Sorry, Howard. -------------------------------------------------------- That's okay, Scott. (I'll pass on discussing this further, even with Ken.) -------------------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104073 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:19 am Subject: Re: Re "Hard in training, easy in battle!" What martial arts teach us dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Good Friends Chuck & all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Four words on what you wrote above! <...> > .... > S: I know you were writing to Colette with your usual good humour, but let's all try to keep it gentle, friendly and courteous as Ken O was suggesting to another friend. Even when we jest, we can be mindful of the others' feelings, as we never know the circumstances of the people we write to at any time! > > Anyway, I've been appreciating all your friendly discussions with various friends here....I know this was just part of your banter-style with Colette... > **** > On our thread, the second part to your qu for which you thought I'd given a "cop out"... > > CMA, ch 4, p 180: > > Text: > > "According to circumstances, it is said, those beyond training experience 44 classes of consciousness, trainees 56, and the rest 54." > > Guide note: > "At the path of stream-entry, the defilements of wrong view and doubt are eradicated; thus the four cittas associated with wrong view and the one citta accompanied by doubt are eliminated. Stream-enterers and once-returners can experience the following 50 cittas, inclusive of the jhanas: 7 unwholesome + 17 wholesome + 23 sense-sphere resultants + 2 adverting + 1 fruition....The 56 cittas mentioned in the text for trainees is arrived at by grouping the three fruitions together and adding the four path cittas." > > Anyway, wishing everyone a very enjoyable New Year's Eve & New Year's Day, however you wish to spend it. Will write next in 2010 - more concepts....another day, another moment only... > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > C: I've been a member since 2001. Silently reading my e-mail from DSG. Trying to decipher the obscure non-traditional definitions... About three weeks ago, I decided to become active. However, it is clear from good friend Sarah, I wore out my very short welcome. Quote: S: I know you were writing to Colette with your usual good humour, but let's all try to keep it gentle, friendly and courteous as Ken O was suggesting to another friend. Even when we jest, we can be mindful of the others' feelings, as we never know the circumstances of the people we write to at any time! Since I am judged as being insensitive... Good bye all... peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104074 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:04 am Subject: Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Regarding: Ph: "...And a good final post for the decade, I'd say!" Scott: Yep. Ph: "...I guess it's the pull of the intensity of people's interest in Dhamma plus their knowledge of the texts plus the friendliness and generosity of people...And there probably is an element of correct understanding at work that understands that understanding (panna) must reach the paramattha level, at some point, for liberation to occur...things that are discussed here and rarely if ever discussed elsewhere in the dhamma e-world *must* be understood, sooner or later. But then I run into this idea that this kind of deep understanding must be first and forefront and I think that's wrong, we must grow into it very gradually...I find it hard to fathom that it is possible to deal with the deep teachings without kind of contaminating them with our hungry minds in a way that could possibly (I don't know, but I suspect it is the case) cloud the potential to have correct understandings. I can't fathom the idea that there are people who don't seek comfort from the Dhamma..." Scott: I can't agree with some of the above. The Dhamma *is* deep. That's just a fact. I think you are being superstitious about this. The whole thing about 'contamination' and 'hungry minds' just doesn't make sense to me. More puritanical anxiety? ;-) Understanding understands what it does, and at the level it's at. What is not understood is not understood. Ph: "...So yes, having seen that, and understanding that it won't change, I should indeed just move on for good, and maybe this post will be the condition for that, who knows?" Scott: This is not what I'm suggesting, as I think you know. Ph: "...I never, never would say that I can make myself have more sila..." Scott: I've read you often to talk about all the mind-control effort you feel you must go through, for instance. No? Ph: "..The Buddha's teaching about conventional aspects is the very powerful conditional force that when listened to, reflected on and followed..." Scott: Yes, of course. The Buddha taught Dhamma because he knew. Ph: "...will lead to dhammas being conditioned that lead to the sense of a person having sila. AND that sense of a person having sila is itself a powerful condition, one that I am more and more convinced the Buddha guides us to make good use of before it is eventually dropped when deeper and strong panna takes over, something like that..." Scott: No, here's where I disagree. I don't consider this to be a function of anything but lobha. The 'sense of a person having sila' is wrong view. It won't lead anywhere anytime soon. I agree that it feels really good, though. We all love lobha. Ph: "...I find it hard to believe I have ever asserted that I can make myself have more sila. It's the Dhamma that does it, as condition. So when I posted last time about being blissed out about being an increasingly virtuous person, of course I understood that there is sakkaya ditthi at work." Scott: See above. Ph: My approach to Sila is much subtler that trying to force everything, I think. It's fascinating. I (so to speak) am a work in progress, shaped by listening to, reflecting on, and following the teaching of the Buddha. I will tell you how it's going in more detail someday..." Scott: I'm fairly sure that to find your self to be 'fascinating' and 'a work in progress' sort of misses the boat, man. Thanks for your kindness in replying and Happy New Year. Sincerely, Scott. #104075 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah Thanks for the reference. >S: It is the same as attavaadupaadaana, as I understand. KO: If you put attavaadupaadaana as the same as attanuditthi then it should be the same as sakkaya ditthi. I did see your post to Han. That is why I felt when AS said that when someone clings to the concept of self, being, person, or different things and really believes that they exist, there is the wrong view of sakkya-ditthi (personality belief), is basing on this definition also. Again to emphasis, as we equate concepts as reality, we take it as there is self or being in concept. This is quite common especially when we grasp over beautiful concepts. . >S: We can think about a car or a person with or without wrong view, with kusala or akusala cittas too. To give an obvious example, when we think about people with metta, there is no wrong view at such moments. KO: Everytime we take a man or car as a mental object and think that these object as reality, that is wrong view. If we think the people is real that is already wrong view, metta would not arise. When we think people as real, the metta we think that arise could be lobha and not metta. When we see people in terms of nama and rupa, then metta would be metta. >... >S: On the contrary, although the latent tendency to wrong view is there of course, there is no wrong view arising, because they don't have any ideas about the nature of reality. This is why the latent tendencies are dangerous, like "microbes" - they can manifest anytime. It's like someone with a drug addiction who doesn't have their drug at this moment. It doesn't mean there's no addiction. > KO: Sorry a person who does not have any ideas of nature of reality means, its really full of wrong views. Wrong view arise with lobha. A dog who is attached to its partner is already wrong view when thinking its partner is real. A child who is attached to his/her toy is also full of wrong view when thinking the toy is real. An Interesting quote. The Book of Analysis. Analysis of small items pg 485 <> That make life simple on attachement of wrong view. The particular chapter has many description of wrong views in terms of threefold, fourfold, fivefold etc :-) cheers Ken O #104076 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Re "Hard in training, easy in battle!" What martial arts teach us upasaka_howard Hi, Chuck - In a message dated 12/31/2009 10:21:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dhammasaro@... writes: C: I've been a member since 2001. Silently reading my e-mail from DSG. Trying to decipher the obscure non-traditional definitions... About three weeks ago, I decided to become active. However, it is clear from good friend Sarah, I wore out my very short welcome. --------------------------------------------------- Not a good inference, Chuck! I'm SURE that isn't so. ----------------------------------------------- Quote: S: I know you were writing to Colette with your usual good humour, but let's all try to keep it gentle, friendly and courteous as Ken O was suggesting to another friend. Even when we jest, we can be mindful of the others' feelings, as we never know the circumstances of the people we write to at any time! Since I am judged as being insensitive... ------------------------------------------------------ Hey, you're being sensitive right now! ;-)) Sorry - I couldn't resist. :-) ------------------------------------------------- Good bye all... ------------------------------------------------ Seriously, I hope you remain on the list (or immediately rejoin in case you've unsubscribed). -------------------------------------------------- peace... metta (maitri), Chuck =============================== With metta, Howard Conditionality /"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that."/ (From the Bodhi Sutta, Udana 1.1) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /"Nothing comes from nothing. Nothing ever could."/ (From "The Sound of Music") _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /Empty, empty, empty, empty, empty!/ (The Catechism of Catechisms) #104077 From: Vince Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:40 am Subject: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Hi Ken, > KO: Citta does not need time to determine its arising, presence > and ceassation. Citta does not have the idea in terms of past, > present and future, though it could take such objects. Citta does > not need to be supported by time. Its arising, presence and > cessation is basically due to causes and conditions. Since the "cause" it's not conceivable without a notion of "past" regarding an actual attribution to some object as the "effect", How can exist something working as a condition for a dhamma without the support of Time? > KO: Understanding reality is important because it prevent us from having > the annihilist view that everything is like a dream and also prevent > us to having a thinking that reality is eternal. One cannot deny > there is an existence of seeing or feeling heat and such existence > of seeing depends on conditions. "Like a dream" is not annihilation but a frequent phrase inside Suttas, because the situation is very similar to a dream. There is a self believing he is the protagonist and the owner. When this situation is cleared then it is like to be awakened of a dream. I think there is seeing and feeling but when we start to talk about the causes and conditions of the seeing and feeling, then it's the self who is building this explanation . Causes and conditions exits in our understanding to explain dhammas but they are not a description in final terms. We can say that there is not a "5" but 3 + 2. The 5 arise because causes and conditions (3 and 2). This truth it's a conventional one regarding what is here and now. Truth is that here and now there is 5, and later there is 3 and 2 to find an explanation, and there is + to establish that. So, the immediate reality of 5 becomes: 3...2...5 ant it will be explained by the self putting + and =. The + is a relation performed by the self in dependence of the grasping of other objects. In that way the 3 and 2 become causes and condition for 5. Despite being "real" we cannot take this explanation as the final one. I think so ! have a happy new year!! -- best wishes, Vince #104078 From: "Christine" Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:01 pm Subject: Re: How are you celebrating New Year's Eve while keeping Sila? christine_fo... Hello Sarah, all, I had a wonderful night at Dhammagiri. We had as many people turn up as on a Sil day - and considering it's an hours' drive from the edge of the city, that was a pleasant surprise. A visiting monk, Ajahn Khemasiri, who is Abbot of the Dhammapala Kloster located in Kandersteg in Switzerland, gave a 50 minute talk and guided meditation on "Forgiveness" of each other and ourselves. We had a short break for sparkling soft drinks, tea/coffee, marshmallows, jubes and dark chocolate - the Ajahn Dhammasiha gave an hours' talk and guided meditation on adhitthana [adhi.t.thaana]: Determination; resolution. One of the ten perfections (paramis) ... of which our New Years Eve Resolutions are a very weak copy. We all had food for thought about our own Determinations for 2010. There was a further break for refreshments and talk. Then Glow Sticks were handed out and we began a half hour walk up the very very steep hill in single file and noble silence (apart from panting for breath). We circumnambulated our new little Bodhi tree which is not doing so well in the heat and drought, and then also did the same for our other Bodhi tree at the top of the hill which is doing splendidly. Then at the high point where there is a Dhamma Wheel (Dhammacakka) on a pole, we circumnambulated the Wheel and had auspicious Chanting in Pali by the monks and lay people. Then we chanted the Karaniya Metta Sutta in english and radiated lovingkindness in all directions. We could see the lights of Ipswich and of Brisbane in the far distance. A very inquisitive possum was jumping from branch to branch high up in the eucalypt trees and wallabies could be heard pounding through the bush. The full moon was high in a cloudless sky - absolutely beautiful. The only small problem was that the temperature at midnight was 23 C = 73.4 F with between 70 and 80 percent humidity. Everyone was soaked in perspiration - which does nothing for ladies hairstyles and make-up - but who was noticing :-). metta Chris #104080 From: "colette" Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:59 am Subject: Re: Re "Hard in training, easy in battle!" What martial arts teach us ksheri3 Hi Chuck, Sarah and all, That's a good one: "trying to decipher". C'mon, chuck, aren't you trying to fit a round peg into a square hole? <...> lets focus on you and your dream land of "deciphering". > Silently reading my e-mail from DSG. Trying to decipher the obscure non-traditional definitions... Fine, you read and do not understand: you are perplexed by the lack of understanding that another student of the dharma has and you place this IGNORANCE as something to be relegated to the trash bin, circular file, circular consciousness, circular logic. A monk, prey tell. I challenge you here and now. Yes, my weapons are not smokin so they are ready to deal with the upocoming events. It's AUTOMATIC, no? Come now, THE LION'S ROAR IS NOT FOR THE NEOPHYTE IS IT? Shall they be advised to "close their eyes" and not see, not witness, NOT EXPERIENCE? Is that the objectivity of Bhuddism? You "decipher" yet others experience, why is that? have you no life to give to your brothers and sisters? ARe you nothing more than a computer generated argument? <...> But lets be civile and enjoy the charade we participate in, no? Let us dream of how easy it is for our friends to fly from country to country without any problems, no? toodles, colette > C: I've been a member since 2001. > > Silently reading my e-mail from DSG. Trying to decipher the obscure non-traditional definitions... > > About three weeks ago, I decided to become active. > > However, it is clear from good friend Sarah, I wore out my very short welcome. <...> #104081 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:45 pm Subject: Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. scottduncan2 Dear Phil, For your consideration: "...And then, Father, I almost took the bread and cheese." "But you didn't take it?" "No." "Then there was no sin by deed." "But I wanted it so badly, I could taste it." "Willfully? Did you deliberately enjoy the fantasy?" "No." "You tried to get rid of it?" "Yes." "So there was not culpable gluttony of thought either. Why are you confessing this?" "Because then I lost my temper and splashed him with holy water." "You what? Why?...But exorcism is permissible these days, without any specific higher authorization. What are you confessing - being angry?" "At whom did you become angry? At the old man - or at your self for almost taking the food?" "I - I'm not sure." "Well, make up your mind," Father Cheroki said impatiently, "Either accuse yourself, or not." "I accuse myself." "Of what?" Cheroki sighed. "Of abusing a sacramental in a fit of temper." "'Abusing'? You had no rational reason to suspect diabolic influence? You just became angry and squirted him with it? Like throwing ink in his eye?" The novice squirmed and hesitated, sensing the priest's sarcasm. Confession had always been difficult for Brother Francis. He could never find the right words for his misdeeds, and in trying to remember his own motives, he became hopelessly confused. Nor was the priest helping matters by taking the "either-you-did-or-else-you-didn't" stand - even though, obviously, either Francis had or else he hadn't. "I think I lost my senses for a moment," he said finally. Cheroki opened his mouth, apparently meaning to pursue the matter, then thought better of it. "I see. What next, then?" "Gluttonous thoughts," Francis said after a moment. The priest sighed. "I thought we were through with that. Or is this another time?" "Yesterday. There was this lizard, Father. It had blue and yellow stripes, and such magnificent hams - thick as your thumb and plump, and I kept thinking how it would taste like chicken, roasted all brown and crisp outside, and -" "All right," the priest interrupted. Only a hint of revulsion crossed his aged face. After all, the boy was spending a lot of time in the sun. "You took pleasure in these thoughts? You didn't try to get rid of temptation? Francis reddened. "I - I tried to catch it. It got away." "So, not merely thought - deed as well. Just that one time?" "Well, yes, just that." "All right, in thought and deed, willfully meaning to eat meat during Lent. Please be as specific as you can after this. I thought you had examined your conscience properly. Is there anything else?" "Quite a lot." The priest winced. He had several hermitages to visit, it was a long, hot ride, and his knees were hurting. "Please get on with it as quickly as you can," he sighed. "Impurity, once." "Thought, word, or deed?" "Well, there was this succubus, and she -" "Succubus? Oh - nocturnal. You were asleep?" "Yes, but -" "Then why confess it?" "Because afterwards." "Afterwards what? When you woke up?" "Yes. I kept thinking about her. Kept imagining it all over again." "All right, concupiescent thought, deliberately entertained. You're sorry? Now, what next?" All this was the usual sort of thing that one kept hearing time after endless time from postulant after postulant, novice after novice, and it seemed to Father Cheroki that the least Brother Francis could do would be to bark out his self-accusations one, two, three, in a neat orderly manner, without all this prodding and prompting... A Canticle For Leibowitz, Walter M. Miller. Jr., 1959. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #104082 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself ptaus1 Hi Chuck, > C: The "space" is not a simple word!!! Evidently, you did not read the earlier message number: pt: Sorry, I guess I don't understand what exactly you want me to do. If you want me to choose among the definitions you provided in your post, then I guess my statements: > > "My usage of "space" is in conventional sense, as in distance from A to B." and > > "You can also call it 3-dimensional space as understood in science, but it is still a conventional designation." will be closest in meaning to the first definition you provided: > C: Space is the boundless, three-dimensional extent in which objects and events occur and have relative position and direction. pt: If this is still not what you wanted me to do, then please advise further. > C: 1. I perused those messages!!! > > 2. Please provide the Tipitaka references to support your above statements. pt: Sorry, again I'm not sure what exactly you want me to do - the references are in the messages mentioned, and the summary of my understanding of past discussions on dsg also refers to these same messages. Here's a summary of references: - Atthasalini http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101493 - Maharahulovada and Dhatuvibhanga Suttas http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/100128 - Dhammasangani and Atthasalini http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/100062 - Sammohavinodani http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/99972 - Milinda Panha http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/99095 Also Sarah has made a research into this topic which summarises these and other references - you can read it in the following messages (which are also under the same section "Space" in UP): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/88902 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/88903 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/88904 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/88905 > C: FWIW, I am a very serious Dhamma-vinaya student!!! I do not appreciate GIGO!!! pt: Sorry that my answer didn't address what you wanted it to address. I'm a beginner, so if you prefer really deep discussions, perhaps ask Sarah, Nina and other more knowledgeable people here about it. I can't really do much more than provide my understanding of the discussions here and point to the earlier posts. Best wishes pt #104083 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 12:21 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 7 Mental development and meditation Mental development is the third of the threefold classification of wholesomeness. Mental development includes tranquil meditation as well as the development of insight wisdom. The first way of wholesomeness, generosity, and the second way of wholesomeness, good moral conduct, can be performed also without understanding of the cittas which arise, of kusala and akusala. For mental development, however, understanding is necessary. The understanding which arises in mental development is of different degrees, as we will see. The study of the Buddhas teachings, the Dhamma, and the explaining of it to others are included in mental development. When one listens to the explanation of the Dhamma and reads the scriptures, one learns what is kusala and what is akusala, one learns about kamma and its result and about the ways to develop wholesomeness. One learns that realities are impermanent, suffering, dukkha, and non-self, anatt. In order to develop understanding of the Dhamma, one should not only listen, one should also carefully consider what one hears and test its meaning. Explaining the Dhamma to others is included in mental development. Both speaker and listener can benefit, because they can be reminded of the need to verify the truth of the Dhamma in their own life. Understanding acquired through the study of the Dhamma is the foundation for tranquil meditation and insight meditation which are also included in mental development. Tranquil meditation and insight meditation have each a different aim and a different way of development. For both kinds of meditation right understanding of the aim and the way of development is indispensable. ******** Nina. #104084 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] BULLSHIT! ashkenn2k Dear colette >which is it that exists: does the head exist that is propelled into the wall OR DOES THE WALL EXIST which recieves the gift the head being propelled into it? > >PISHAW. KO: the wall or the head only exist as mind construct but not real. The colour of the wall is real, > >the doctrine of SHUNYATA CLEARLY STATES THAT NOTHING EXISTS and therefore your head and your wall do not exist so your premise is rather without FOUNDATION. Mind you of the SIX VERJA VERSES: KO: nothing exist is wrong, that is annhilistic point of view. Presently, when you unhappy, there is an unpleasant feeling. That is real and exist. Exist by causes and conditions, there is no self to be found. It should be, there is no self exist in dhamma and not nothing exist. >"the nature of phenomena is non-dual, >But each one, in its own state, is beyond the lmits of the mind. >There is no concept that can define the condition of 'what is' >But vision nevertheless manifests: all is good >Everything has already been accompleished, and so, having >overcome the sickness of effort, >One finds oneself in the self-perfected state: this is contemplation. " KO: this is the Mahayana way of describing Nibbana which I do not agreed on the describing of non-dual. The non-dual is supposed to mean unarisen. Unarisen, what is not arise cannot cease, the deathless, that is Nibbana. For second verse, it should be beyond the limits of the worldly mind, for the 3rd vserse, because Nibbana is unconditional, so there is no "what is" the rest should be quite easy to understand. > >BTW: BOY HAVE I OPENED A CAN OF WORMS. BUT LETS PLAY THIS OUT. > >Can I usher in Pink Floyd's opinion of THE WORMS i.e. "Waiting for the Worms"? >------------ --------- --------- --------- ---- > >Ken O.: >The colour, the hardness, the temperate characteristics of the head are all real but the head is not real. > >colette: this seems a bit odd: how can the attributesn of something exist without the thing they describe existing? KO: Because of our conditioning, it is natural to think that wall is real. We take what is not real as real. We do not pay attention to what is real. Cheers Ken O #104085 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas ashkenn2k Dear Vince >Since the "cause" it's not conceivable without a notion of "past" regarding >an actual attribution to some object as the "effect", How can exist >something working as a condition for a dhamma without the support of >Time? KO: The supporting dhamma for our continual round of existence is ignorance and not time. Do not equate time with dhamma because it is relative. Again, citta that arise is not concern about past, present or future. Time does not help to understand the present characteristic of a dhamma that arise. We should be concen about what is in our present moment than what is our past. There is nothing we can do about the past, it is gone, ceased. Studying of the past elude us from being aware of the present. > >"Like a dream" is not annihilation but a frequent phrase inside >Suttas, because the situation is very similar to a dream. There is a >self believing he is the protagonist and the owner. When this >situation is cleared then it is like to be awakened of a dream. KO: When dream, foam, bubble are used, they should to show there is no self in dhamma. This is its usual usage. But it does not mean aggregate like feelings do not exist. >I think there is seeing and feeling but when we start to talk about the >causes and conditions of the seeing and feeling, then it's the self >who is building this explanation . Causes and conditions exits in >our understanding to explain dhammas but they are not a description in >final terms. > >We can say that there is not a "5" but 3 + 2. The 5 arise because >causes and conditions (3 and 2). This truth it's a conventional one >regarding what is here and now. Truth is that here and now there is 5, >and later there is 3 and 2 to find an explanation, and there is + to >establish that. So, the immediate reality of 5 becomes: > >3...2...5 > >ant it will be explained by the self putting + and =. > >The + is a relation performed by the self in dependence of the >grasping of other objects. In that way the 3 and 2 become causes >and condition for 5. Despite being "real" we cannot take this >explanation as the final one. I think so ! KO: In this way of thinking, there is no end to the causes and conditions. Then we wlil ask how does one get 3, it is 2 + 1, then how to get 2..... It would not end. In the way you think as mention above, one will ask what is inside feeling. Then what is inside of the inside of feeling. That is none more basic than the five aggregates. We cannot break it down further on the causes or conditions. Have a great year ahead Cheers Ken O #104086 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 1:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cittakkhana was conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas ashkenn2k Dear Chuck >C: Would you please give a detailed explanation how cittakkhana agrees with your teaching above? KO: Cittakkhana is describing the moment of a citta but not citta itself. Just like impermanence, suffering and anatta are charactertistics of citta but not citta itself. The main function of citta is to think or cognize. The present citta would not know it is conditioned by the previous citta or conditioning the next citta, this is talking on citta itself. Only panna will know the characteristics of the moments of citta and not citta itself. If citta knows it exist for a moment, we will have an easier time to eradicate defilements because citta would know that we are impermanent, dukkha and anatta. Because citta does not know such characteristics, so we have to develop panna by understanding nama and rupa and not concern about time. Again citta function is to know the object that arises. Time is an object the citta that thinks, time is a concept while thinking is real. I am not in the position to teach nor do I promote any form of teaching. :-) I just like to share what is nama and rupas. 2nd email C: "...hurt could only be experienced by body citta and not seeing citta, seeing citta just see." KO: Hurt which I mean is bodily pain, this only could be experienced by bodily citta. Just like when we move our pupils in our eye, it is conditoned by bodily intimation rupa. The movement of the pupil could be experienced by bodily citta Another email on C: Would you go into detail on this rebirth being? KO: I am just using an example. Another example on the conventional level is my head and an elephant head is different but the characteristic of colour, hardness and temperature is the same for both. I mean in terms of characteristic of colour, definitely there are different colour, level of hardness :-) Must explain in detail and not short form or Sarah and Jon would come after me again. Cheers Ken O #104087 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 2:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. sarahprocter... Dear pt & all, Typo! --- On Thu, 31/12/09, sarah abbott wrote: >S: Gold and dung are concepts. At a moment of touch, only hardness/softness, temperature or motion is experienced, as a result of kamma. Yes, rupas outside the body are experienced by temperature only, but at the moment of touch, when hardness is experienced, it makes no difference whether it's the hardness of the leg or the hardness of gold. Hardness (pathavi dhatu) is just hardness. ... S: It should read: "Yes, rupas outside the body are *conditioned* by temperature only," Metta Sarah ======= #104088 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself sarahprocter... Hi pt (& Chuck), --- On Thu, 31/12/09, ptaus1 wrote: >My usage of "space" is in conventional sense, as in distance from A to B. >When it comes to ultimate, afaik, from discussions so far, there are two ultimate meanings of space as a rupa: 1. the very, very small space that separates rupa kalapas. 2. non-conditioned space (non-conditioned space element not being the same as unconditioned nibbana element) >First is straight-forward to understand I think, second is a bit hard to explain, though I believe that the conventional term "space" as I use it refers to this non-conditioned space element, so I don't think there's a big difference between conventional and non-conditioned one, though of course one is a concept, while the other can be discerned through insight. ... S: A good summary. I like the use of 'non-conditioned space' too. Metta Sarah ====== #104089 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 2:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. sarahprocter... Hi Scott & Phil, --- On Thu, 31/12/09, philofillet wrote: > Scott: I found myself thinking about these elements of your post. It's clear that you can't quite escape the ethereal gravitational pull of this site. As you say, you keep returning to post your 'reservations. ' I have to say that I can't quite fathom the point of having to do so. I mean if one disagrees then one simply disagrees. ... Sarah: I don't think it's ever as simple as that....I quite understand the point of friends like Phil posting their 'reservations'. I'm sure we all have various 'reservations' of one kind or other about what we read or hear and it can be helpful to express them. Some people may disagree with some of us when they write here and then quote what we say when they speak to others...all very common, I'd think. It's the same in live discussions, people join in or listen in spite of reservations or having different ideas. Personally, I welcome this. ... Ph: It's interesting. I've talked about this with Tep, I think. He has managed (so far) to escape what you very correctly call the gravitational pull of this place. .... S: :-)) Thx for mentioning Tep - I miss him and our discussion of texts, wish him Happy New Year (if he still reads here) and hope the "gravitational pull" brings him back one day!! ... >P: So I would say as I said above DSG helped to open a channel for understanding that isn't opened elsewhere, and there is some kind of wise understanding at work in me that knows it is best not to plunge in to that channel, but to keep it open and approach it tentatively now and then. ... S: And of course, all dhammas, all anatta.... ... >P: I watched 2001 the other day and I keep thinking of that black obelisk and the way the apes respond when they come across it, kind of shying away, then running up to touch it, finally, and leaping away screeching, then touching it again, longer, and then rubbing their hands lustfully all over it. I think I am a touch it and back away screeching kind of ape and you guys like to get right in their and get your paws all over the obelisk. .... S: :-)) Very funny... ... >P: I can't fathom the idea that there are people who don't seek comfort from the Dhamma, that notion is just beyond me. That's my problem, but it paints the way I see DSG, I see that use of the deep teachings and deep topics for comfort, for mental pleasure. I'm sorry to keep saying that since it could be wrong, but I can't get by it right now, thats my problem. ... S: In any case, others' intentions or cittas are unknown to us and don't matter. All that matters is the present citta, 'our' present citta now - kusala or akusala? Hope you have a good year, Phil - lots of wise reflection, inspired writing, harmonious home relations and look forward to all your 'Reservations' posts:-)) Keep touching the obelisk and one day you'll stop screeching...lol! Metta Sarah ======== #104090 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O & all, --- On Thu, 31/12/09, Ken O wrote: >When one cannot think in terms of citta, cetasikas and rupas, the confusion goes on and on. When citta arise with panna, sila is being done, metta is being done. But a person who thinks he/she is doing sila and metta, may not have panna. >Also when sila is not follow or perform correctly or diminishes, one get upset or dissappointed. When one expects, one long, when this expectation is not met, one feel upset. A perpetual distressing cycle of trying to do sila. The simple way is that at the moment of panna, the citta would definitely be kusala and there would be no expectation. With panna, one perfect sila bit by bit. No hurry just like the handle of trade tools of the craftsman is slowly worn away by the usage of the craftsman. .... S: Very nicely put, especially: "When one cannot think in terms of citta, cetasikas and rupas, the confusion goes on and on." True! Metta Sarah ======= #104091 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recalling the Basics: The Noble Eightfold Path sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Tue, 29/12/09, upasaka@... wrote: >--- On Mon, 28/12/09, upasaka@aol. com wrote: >"The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. " - SN 56.11 ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------ >S: And "The way leading to cessation of suffering" is "dukkhanirodhagaami nii pa.tipadaa", where pa.tipadaa is translated as the way or the practice. It is the noble eightfold path. So at moments of satipatthana, it is right practice or the right way, that of right view and so on.....nothing wrong about it. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - H:> There are no "moments of satipatthana. " A satipatthana is a foundation for mindfulness, an area in which mindful attention is usefully applied, an area of contemplation that can *lead* to insight. It is not a synonym for 'pa~n~na'. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - S: As Nina has said, there have been no suggestions that satipatthana is a synonym for panna. However, when satipatthana is given as the only way, the one way (ekaayanoti ekamaggo), it is made clear that all the factors of the eightfold path are included: From the commentaries to the Satipatthana Sutta as translated by Soma: "Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word 'way'? Are there not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration, besides mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness." When there is awareness (undersanding and so on) of any reality (whether it be a rupa, vedana, citta or other dhamma), this is the development of the way, the path. Such development, such moments of satipatthana, are momentary. [More in "useful posts" under 'Satipatthana2 - 3 meanings'. For example, see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/91804] Metta Sarah p.s Thx again for your encouragement to Chuck and my apologies to all for any insensitive comments I may have made anytime. ========== #104092 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, --- On Tue, 29/12/09, upasaka@... wrote: S>>: SN 55:55: “Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma...." >>As Jon wrote before: "In the expression "practice in accordance with the Dhamma", the term "practice" means the actual moment of consciousness accompanied by insight that knows something about the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. It does not mean undertaking some kind of activity with a view to having that consciousness occur." ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- H:> I don't agree with that. After associating (the1st), hearing & considering (the 2nd), and carefully attending (the3rd), one then practices in accord with the Dhamma learned (the 4th), and these four LEAD to stream-entry! They *lead* to it. Practice is practice and not insight. Insight is the *fruit* of practice. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- S: "practice in accordance with the Dhamma (dhammanudhamma pa.ti padaa)". Dhammanudhamma patipada (practice in accordance with the true dhamma) is the moment of satipatthana and insight, as I understand. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/56445 Nina quoted: >Anguttara Nikaaya, Book of the Ones, Ch XIX, Trifiling(I, 35): Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye sutvaa dhamma.m > dhaarenti; atha kho eteva sattaa bahutaraa ye sutvaa dhamma.m na > dhaarenti. > ... Indeed, monks, just so few are those beings who, after they have heard the teachings, bear them in mind... more numerous are those who, after they have heard the teachings, do not bear them in mind. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye dhaataana.m > dhammaana.m attha.m upaparikkhanti; atha kho eteva sattaa bahutaraa > ye dhaataana.m dhammaana.m attha.m na upaparikkhanti. > ... Indeed, monks, just so, few are those beings who > examine the meaning of the teachings they have born in mind... more numerous are those who do not do so. ---------- Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye > atthama~n~naaya dhammama~n~naaya dhammaanudhamma.m pa.tipajjanti; > atha kho eteva sattaa bahutaraa ye atthama~n~naaya dhammama~n~naaya > dhammaanudhamma.m na pa.tipajjanti. >Indeed, monks, just so few are those beings who, understanding the teachings and their meaning, practise in accordance with the Dhamma... more numerous are those who do not do so. ... S: When there is right understanding of realities, but not of the level of satipatthana, it is pariyatti, not pa.tipadaa. This is why such development or practise is rare. Also, other kinds of kusala are not included in such practice: I quoted from the Pa.tipadaa Sutta before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/74364 >SN, Nidaanasa.nyutta, 12:3(Bodhi transl): "The Two Ways" [Pa.tipadaa Sutta] "At Saavatthi. 'Bhikkhus, I will teach you the wrong way and the right way. .....And what, bhikkhus, is the wrong way? With ignorance as condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness....Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the wrong way. "And what, bhikkhus, is the right way? With the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations......Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the right way." ***** Here, the Buddha is comparing the micchaa-pa.tipadaa with the samma-pa.tipadaa. Can any kusala be included in the wrong way? I believe the commentary (Pali below) makes it clear that any states which do not lead out of samsara are included here in the wrong way of practice (micchaapa.tipada). These include meritorious deeds (pu~n~naabhisankhaara), even jhana states, the 5 mundane abhinnas (pa~ncaabhi~n~naa) and the 8 attainments of jhana (atthi aane~njaabhisa'nkhaara), I think. This wrong path prolongs the cycle of rebirth (va.t.tapakkiya etc). >The right path is that of satipatthana, the development of insights, leading to the eradication of ignorance and craving and the cycle of rebirth. .... S: I'm sure there is much in what I've written that you may disagree with, Howard. No need to pursue unless you'd like to. Have a happy and peaceful New Year's Day! Metta Sarah ===== #104093 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 4:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Luminous, monks, is the mind ... sarahprocter... Hi Chris, --- On Mon, 28/12/09, Christine wrote: >I have come across this translation (with notes) by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. <...> I hope someone will care to comment on his notes below, and what is understood from an Abhidhamma perspective. AN 1.49-52 Pabhassara Sutta: Luminous ( translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu) "Luminous, monks, is the mind.1 And it is defiled by incoming defilements. " {I,v,9} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. " {I,v,10} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2} Note 1. This statement has engendered a great deal of controversy over the centuries. The commentary maintains that "mind" here refers to the bhavanga-citta, the momentary mental state between periods when the mental stream adverts to objects, but this statement raises more questions than it answers. There is no reference to the bhavanga-citta or the mental stream in any of the suttas (they appear first in an Abhidhamma treatise, the Patthana); and because the commentaries compare the bhavanga-citta to deep sleep, why is it called luminous? ... S: Even though bhavanga cittas may not be named as such in the suttas, there are definitely references to them and "the mental stream" in the Psm and suttas, such as this, for those who can understand them, like the ancient commentators. Bhavanga cittas, as in deep sleep - not tainted by akusala mental states, in this sense 'Pabhassara' or luminous. ... >And why would the perception of its luminosity be a prerequisite for developing the mind? ... S: There is no development, no bhavanaa, when there is no understanding of the nature of akusala and its arising. Don't we take mental states to be lasting? ... >And further, if "mind" in this discourse means bhavanga-citta, what would it mean to develop the bhavanga-citta? ... S: It's referring to the development of awareness and understanding of all kinds of dhammas, here including the bhavanga cittas. They, too, can be known and understood by developed panna. There isn't seeing, hearing and thinking all the time. In between, there are bhavanga cittas, just like in deep sleep. We can begin to understand (even intellectually in the beginning), that visible object appears just for a moment and then the world is dark again. It's ignorance which thinks we see all the time and that the world appears light for most of the day. ... >Another interpretation equates the luminosity of the mind with the "consciousness without feature," desribed as "luminous" in MN 49 and DN 11, but this interpretation also has problems. ... S: This is a totally different meaning of 'pabhassara', referring to nibbana. It has nothing to do with the Pabhassara Sutta above. For a brief summary, I think this one by B.Bodhi (which I've quoted before) in the back of his anthology to AN is quite good: "Luminous (pabhasara'm). AA states that here "the mind" (citta) refers to the bhava'nga-citta, the 'life-continuum' or underlying stream of consciousness which supervenes whenever active consciousness lapses, most notably in deep sleep. The 'adventitious defilements' are greed, hatred and delusion, which appear at a stage of the cognitive process, which, in later Buddhist literature, is called 'javana', 'impulsion'. AA says that the defilements do not arise simultaneously with the bhava'nga, but they 'arrive' later, at the phase of javana. The fact that this expression 'luminous mind' does not signify any 'eternal and pure mind-essence' is evident from the preceding text, in which the mind is said to be extremely fleeting and transitory. The 'uninstructed worldling' (assutavaa puthujjana) is one who lacks adequate knowledge of the Dhamma and training in its practice." [note: BB himself no longer agees with the commentaries on this and some other suttas, however!] Pls let me know if there is anything further you'd like to discuss on this topic. Metta Sarah p.s I was glad to hear about your New Year - a memorable one! Best wishes for 2010! ========== #104094 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. jonoabb Hi KenO (103966) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > > Lobha can only arises with either conceit or wrong view. When one craves for an object that does not exist as a reality, it is a wrong view. Nothing wrong with conceptualisation as it exist as a mind object. The problem with conceptualisation which is an object of the mind is that our conditioning will lead us believe it is a thing/being/self. > =============== Yes, lobha may arise with conceit or with wrong view (one or the other). However, it may also arise without either of these factors present. I happened to hear a discussion about this on a recording just this morning. It was suggested that when experiencing the taste of pleasant food there would typically be attachment but no conceit or wrong view. So although food is something that, speaking in conventional terms, we would regard as being 'real', craving for it, even strong craving, does not have to mean there is wrong view also. The same would apply, I think, for other objects regarded as desirable, such as the car you mentioned. Wrong view is something other than attachment to an object that conventionally speaking is regarded as being 'real'. We can appreciate, for example, that conceptualising a car out of a seen visible object, and having attachment to that conceptualised object, is not the same as taking the visible object as being 'self', as permanent or as a source of satisfaction. > =============== Only when we see it as nama and rupa, then the idea of a self/being/thing unto a conceptual object will slowly be eradicated. > =============== Yes, only the developed panna that sees nama as nama and rupa as rupa leads to the breaking down, and eventual eradication, of wrong view. To my understanding, however, there will continue to be conceptualising about the rupas that are seen, heard or otherwise experienced and, except for the anagami and arahant, attachment to the conceptualised object. Jon #104095 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 4:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. jonoabb Hi KenO (103972) > J:>Yes, it is dhammas that are to be understood, not people and objects. > > KO: Are you saying visible dhamma is an not an object of visible cittas. It should be dhammma are to be undertood and not concepts. We should not use objects in this instance. > =============== J: Yes, dhammas are to be understood, not concepts. Visible object is the dhamma that is the object of (i.e., is experienced by) the dhamma that is seeing consciousness. Either of these dhammas may be the object of insight. I'm not sure I've understood your last sentence above. But let me say that in the expression "visible object", the word "object" denotes something that is experienced (i.e., as opposed to that which experiences), because it is the object of the seeing consciousness. It is not being said that visible object is an object (in the sense of being an item or thing). > =============== We could also add, citta that thinks of the mental object of a concept should be understood and not the mental object of a concept should be understood > =============== J: Yes, agreed. As said above, it is dhammas that are to be understood (by insight), not concepts. In the case of thinking of a concept, the mental object that is a concept cannot be the object of satipatthana, whereas the citta that experiences that mental object can. Jon #104096 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 4:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" jonoabb Hi Alex (103997) > Dear Sarah, KenO, Jon, Sukin, Scott, all, > ... > > S: So "Nama puts in effort (without Self View), but when Dhamma understanding becomes good enough, Nama drops the effort and understanding continues to grow." Hmmm.... > > ... > > The understanding grows and improves. > =============== It is of course true that if understanding arises, then it grows and improves. But what are the conditions that support the arising of understanding in the first place? In an earlier message you said: "A: At first one needs to put in effort (without Self View), but when Dhamma understanding becomes good enough, one drops the effort (that may have felt as if one were doing something) and understanding continues to grow." The effort spoken of by the Buddha is not something that is dropped as understanding grows. On the contrary, as understanding is developed so is the mental factor of energy (viriya). It is one of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path (as samma-vayama), meaning that it is present at the moment of enlightenment (magga citta). So the kind of effort that is put in at the beginning of an endeavour to get it started has nothing to do with the wholesome mental factor of effort as mentioned in the suttas. This mental factor, like any other wholesome mental factor, arises if and only if the appropriate conditions are in place. Those conditions do not include a desire to have more awareness arise at the present moment. Jon #104097 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 4:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 4 factors for stream entry sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Wed, 30/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >About 4 factors for stream entry. As to 3rd step of "yoniso manasikaro" , I have a question: Is it done once (or few times, until it is intellectually understood). Or it is done many times over and over. In the latter case, it *is* a form of practice. Like many subjects described in VsM. ... S: I wouldn't call them 'steps'. We have to continue to associate with, hear, consider, reflect, develop understanding of the Dhamma. Never enough, over and over as Nina wrote. I wrote to Ann yesterday about ayoniso manasikaaro in connection with the Path as concerning the taking the impermanent as permanent, painful as pleasant and so on. Soc yoniso manasikaaro refers to the wise considering and understanding of dhammas, of namas and rupas appearing now as impermanent, unsatisfactory, not-self and so on. As I just wrote to Howard, at a moment of right understanding of a dhamma, it is practice. .... >As to 4th Step: "Practice of Dhamma according to the Dhamma". Literally taking it could imply the whole path of sense restraint, moderation in eating, wakefulness and alertness, abandoning hindrances, developing Jhana and so on and so forth. >Is there a sutta passage showing that it is merely a [resultant] citta that arises at the moment of lokuttara citta khana? ... S: See my message to Howard. 'Practice' in this connection refers to moments of satipatthana and insight which directly lead to the arising of the lokuttara cittas (magga citta in not a resultant citta, btw). Other kinds of kusala, including moments of mundane jhana are not included here in right practice, as I understand - they are not factors for stream entry. Metta Sarah ======= #104098 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 4:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > S: Who is this "one...without Self View"? > > > > A:> Nama. > > ... > > S: So "Nama puts in effort (without Self View), but when Dhamma understanding becomes good enough, Nama drops the effort and understanding continues to grow." Hmmm.... > > ... > >A: The understanding grows and improves. ... S: With right effort. Effort is never 'put in' or 'dropped'. ... >A: As understanding improves, there is more right effort and less "wrong" effort. ... S: Yes, of course. More understanding, less ignorance means more right effort naturally. Many of the Pali words like viriya or vivekka (seclusion) are derived from similar Sanskrit terms. People knew a lot about meaking efforts, being strong and courageous at that time. They also knew a lot about living alone in forests and being secluded in this sense. The Buddha used the same words in common language, but showed that all dhammas are anatta, there is never a self to do anything, and that wholesome mental states and the development of wisdom can develop at this very moment. There can be wholesome right effort and seclusion now as we write. ... > So what I mean is that there is more panna appearing and less moha. > More "rights" and less "wrong". ... S: Yes, that sounds fine as long as we remember, there is no one doing anything. The panna takes care of the path - it is always accompanied by right effort. Metta Sarah ======= #104099 From: Vince Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 5:44 am Subject: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Hi Ken, > KO: The supporting dhamma for our continual round of existence is > ignorance and not time. Do not equate time with dhamma because it > is relative. Again, citta that arise is not concern about past, > present or future. Time does not help to understand the present > characteristic of a dhamma that arise. We should be concen about > what is in our present moment than what is our past. There is > nothing we can do about the past, it is gone, ceased. Studying of > the past elude us from being aware of the present. maybe I don't explain myself . What I say, is precisely that your explanation despite right also is finally supported in time. How do you conceive "arise" and "fall away" without time?. In the downloaded pdf of Ven. Nyanaponika is expressed very well: there is not a limited and strict notion of time but in fact it is just an explanation. What we do it's grasping objects in order to understand. > KO: When dream, foam, bubble are used, they should to show there > is no self in dhamma. This is its usual usage. But it does not > mean aggregate like feelings do not exist. neither I don't mean that . What is say is, when there is not self there is not Time . > KO: In this way of thinking, there is no end to the causes and > conditions. Then we wlil ask how does one get 3, it is 2 + 1, then > how to get 2..... It would not end. In the way you think as > mention above, one will ask what is inside feeling. Then what is > inside of the inside of feeling. That is none more basic than the > five aggregates. We cannot break it down further on the causes or conditions. just it was an example to show the relations and conditions are a product of the understanding managed by the self. In final terms there are not relations and conditions. It's the self who says that such dhamma arises by conditions, arises by a past dhamma, be citta or whatever. Cause and effect are supported because Ignorance. Ignorance is the support of kamma formations, and in this sense the conditions are real to us. Cause and effect arises in dependence of Time, which is not other thing than the grasping of the cause-effect logics inherited in the constant grasping of objects. All that exists in the land of the -self. In the land of -no-self all these things are just the noise of -self. A Buddha put order in all this noise so we can realize anatta and the -no-self land. This noise so logic is not a reflection of nibbana. I think so! best wishes, happy entrance in 2010 !! Vince #104100 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 6:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Jon > >Yes, lobha may arise with conceit or with wrong view (one or the other). However, it may also arise without either of these factors present. I happened to hear a discussion about this on a recording just this morning. It was suggested that when experiencing the taste of pleasant food there would typically be attachment but no conceit or wrong view. KO: There are eight instances of lobha which only arise with conceit or wrong view. You are saying when lobha is dominate while the other two cetasikas are not. But one of this must arise with lobha. Cannot be without them for worldlings :-) >Wrong view is something other than attachment to an object that conventionally speaking is regarded as being 'real'. We can appreciate, for example, that conceptualising a car out of a seen visible object, and having attachment to that conceptualised object, is not the same as taking the visible object as being 'self', as permanent or as a source of satisfaction. KO: Pse listen to the discussion on 15 Feb 06 about the cookies. It is something that I like - is said to be attanuditthi and not sakkayaditthi :-) I will discuss about attanuditthi with Sarah in another email. >Yes, only the developed panna that sees nama as nama and rupa as rupa leads to the breaking down, and eventual eradication, of wrong view. To my understanding, however, there will continue to be conceptualising about the rupas that are seen, heard or otherwise experienced and, except for the anagami and arahant, attachment to the conceptualised object. > KO: It should be during the 1st path, the characteristic of nama and rupa is penetrated. that is how doubt and wrong view is completely eradicate. Secondly if you say it is only at anagami it should be wrong because in that case anagami still clings to existence in material and immaterial planes as planes are concepts also. Cheers Ken O #104101 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 6:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas ashkenn2k Dear Vince first Happy New Year :-) > >maybe I don't explain myself . What I say, is precisely that your >explanation despite right also is finally supported in time. >How do you conceive "arise" and "fall away" without time?. > >In the downloaded pdf of Ven. Nyanaponika is expressed very well: >there is not a limited and strict notion of time but in fact it is >just an explanation. What we do it's grasping objects in order to >understand. KO: If the suttas, I have yet seen dhammas are supported by times. Even if he use rebirth etc, it is about kamma and not time that causes the rebirth. Arise and falling away is just a characterisitic of a dhamma and not about time. It though gives an illusion of time. Past, present and future is used as part of defining aggregates but strictly on this. It is not as a support of dhamma. And time cannot be discern accurately because time in an animal world is different from human. likewise to the various planes. >> KO: When dream, foam, bubble are used, they should to show there >> is no self in dhamma. This is its usual usage. But it does not >> mean aggregate like feelings do not exist. > >neither I don't mean that . What is say is, when there is not self >there is not Time . KO: They are both concepts. There is no self to be found in the aggregates if one look closely and truthfully. > >just it was an example to show the relations and conditions are a >product of the understanding managed by the self. In final terms there >are not relations and conditions. It's the self who says that such >dhamma arises by conditions, arises by a past dhamma, be citta or >whatever. > >Cause and effect are supported because Ignorance. Ignorance is the >support of kamma formations, and in this sense the conditions are real >to us. Cause and effect arises in dependence of Time, which is not >other thing than the grasping of the cause-effect logics inherited in >the constant grasping of objects. > >All that exists in the land of the -self. In the land of -no-self all >these things are just the noise of -self. A Buddha put order in all >this noise so we can realize anatta and the -no-self land. >This noise so logic is not a reflection of nibbana. I think so! KO: it is not self or time that directs the causes and conditions, it is the ignorance, lobha and dosa. This is in the suttas. Cheers Ken O #104102 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 7:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah (and Phil), Regarding: Sarah: "...I quite understand the point of friends like Phil posting their 'reservations'. I'm sure we all have various 'reservations' of one kind or other about what we read or hear and it can be helpful to express them. Some people may disagree with some of us when they write here and then quote what we say when they speak to others...all very common, I'd think. It's the same in live discussions, people join in or listen in spite of reservations or having different ideas. Personally, I welcome this..." Scott: All of the above makes total sense to me. Sorry to have caused concern. I was hoping to lure Phil into a bit of a longer discussion... Sincerely, Scott. #104103 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 11:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 1-jan-2010, om 14:44 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > just it was an example to show the relations and conditions are a > product of the understanding managed by the self. In final terms there > are not relations and conditions. It's the self who says that such > dhamma arises by conditions, arises by a past dhamma, be citta or > whatever. ------- N: Perhaps an example can clarify things. Seeing arises now, and it arises because of eyesense and visible object or colour. Seeing is dependent on the ruupas of eyesense and visible object, it could not arise without them. This helps to understand that a self cannot make seeing arise at will, seeing is dependent on other factors which condition its arising. Seeing is in this case the conditioned dhamma, paccayupanna dhamma, and eyesense and visible object are ruupas that are paccaya dhammas, conditioning dhammas. Moreover, seeing is vipaakacitta, a citta that is result, result of a deed done in the past, past kamma, that is accumulated and carried on from one citta to the next one, so that its produces result later on. The Pa.t.thaana is that part of the Abidhamma in which the Buddha taught all the different conditions that operate in our life. Learning more about these helps us to see that there is no self. All phenomena of our life are conditioned dhammas, sa"nkhaara dhammas. Nibbaana is the unconditioned element, asa"nkhaata dhamma. Quote from my Abh in Daily Life, showing that naama depends on ruupa and ruupa depends on naama, they are conditioned dhammas: The Visuddhimagga (XVIII, 34) explains: Furthermore, nma has no efficient power, it cannot occur by its own efficient power... It does not eat, it does not drink, it does not speak, it does not adopt postures. And rpa is without efficient power; it cannot occur by its own efficient power. For it has no desire to eat, it has no desire to drink, it has no desire to speak, it has no desire to adopt postures. But rather it is when supported by rpa that nma occurs; and it is when supported by nma that rpa occurs. When nma has the desire to eat, the desire to drink, the desire to speak, the desire to adopt a posture, it is rpa that eats, drinks, speaks and adopts a posture.... Furthermore (XVIII, 36) we read: And just as men depend upon A boat for traversing the sea, So does the mental body need The matter-body for occurrence. And as the boat depends upon The men for traversing the sea, So does the matter-body need The mental body for occurrence. Depending each upon the other The boat and men go on the sea. And so do mind and matter both Depend the one upon the other. ******* Nina. #104104 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 12:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (103997) > > Dear Sarah, KenO, Jon, Sukin, Scott, all, > > ... > > > S: So "Nama puts in effort (without Self View), but when Dhamma understanding becomes good enough, Nama drops the effort and understanding continues to grow." Hmmm.... > > > ... > > > > The understanding grows and improves. > > =============== > > It is of course true that if understanding arises, then it grows and improves. But what are the conditions that support the arising of understanding in the first place? > > In an earlier message you said: > "A: At first one needs to put in effort (without Self View), but when Dhamma understanding becomes good enough, one drops the effort (that may have felt as if one were doing something) and understanding continues to grow." > > The effort spoken of by the Buddha is not something that is dropped as understanding grows. On the contrary, as understanding is developed so is the mental factor of energy (viriya). It is one of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path (as samma-vayama), meaning that it is present at the moment of enlightenment (magga citta). > > So the kind of effort that is put in at the beginning of an endeavour to get it started has nothing to do with the wholesome mental factor of effort as mentioned in the suttas. This mental factor, like any other wholesome mental factor, arises if and only if the appropriate conditions are in place. Those conditions do not include a desire to have more awareness arise at the present moment. > > Jon > Dear Jon, all, As to the effort. One of the things is that appropriate amount and repetition of right effort is required. Just like with studying. It is not a one shot deal. Quality and quantity count. In the beginning before one has appropriate understanding it is to be expected that not all effort is the right one. So when you can't handle the quality, fulfill the quantity. Also. IMHO right view is as much a statement of value as it is a statement of fact. If the right view doesn't lead to right action, right effort, right liberation, etc, etc - then it isn't "right" effort. Happy New Year, Alex #104105 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 1:01 pm Subject: 4 factors for stream entry & role of samatha truth_aerator Hi Sarah, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Wed, 30/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >About 4 factors for stream entry. > > As to 3rd step of "yoniso manasikaro" , I have a question: > > Is it done once (or few times, until it is intellectually understood). Or it is done many times over and over. In the latter case, it *is* a form of practice. Like many subjects described in VsM. > ... > S: I wouldn't call them 'steps'. We have to continue to associate >with, hear, consider, reflect, develop understanding of the Dhamma. >Never enough, over and over as Nina wrote. Similar with Meditation (bhavana). Cultivation of wholesome states is not "a one shot and forget it" deal. When someone has said about "shotgun approach" of effort, imho it is same as saying "Never enough, over and over". One of the things that I was considering is that wrong views are aspects of CLINGING (upadana) and according to CMA all cittas that come with wrong views are lobha rooted cittas. So even "mere" samatha practice IS very beneficial for dealing with wrong views. The more samatha, the less lobha. The less lobha, the less wrong views. Of course as is with everything, even a good tool may be misused. It is not the screwdrivers fault that it can be used as a weapon. It is how you handle it, that matters. Right view starts with things like: affirming that there is good and bad action (kusala /akusala kamma). Affirmation of action and its consequences (kammavipaka) That there is the path and causes for attaining Nibbana. The typical curriculum for stream-entry (found if various suttas is) step-by-step talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.03.than.html Note: The instruction is in two parts. First part leads to the mind that is "ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright," (which is similar to the description of mind in/after Jhana) and the 2nd part is 4NT teaching. In the above case with Buddha actually instructing you person to person, long samatha training is not needed. Buddha's personal appearance can give a calming effect that no translated sutta can. Wishing Happy New Year, Alex #104106 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is the practice so difficult and arduous? - Ajahn Chah sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Thx for sharing the exerpt from Ajahn Chah - beautifully and wittily told, as usual:) --- On Thu, 31/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >Here is an interesting excerpt from Ajahn Chah: >"Why is the practice so difficult and arduous? Because of desires. As soon as we sit down to meditate we want to become peaceful. If we didn't want to find peace we wouldn't sit, we wouldn't practice. As soon as we sit down we want peace to be right there, but wanting the mind to be calm makes for confusion, and we feel restless. This is how it goes. So the Buddha says, "Don't speak out of desire, don't sit out of desire, don't walk out of desire,...Whatever you do, don't do it with desire." Desire means wanting. If you don't want to do something you won't do it. If our practice reaches this point we can get quite discouraged. How can we practice? As soon as we sit down there is desire in the mind. It's because of this that the body and mind are difficult to observe. If they are not the self nor belonging to self then who do they belong to? It's difficult to resolve these things, we must rely on wisdom. .... S: Wisdom, yes. Right practice does not mean sitting with desire and I don't think the Buddha said "don't do it [anything] with desire". He taught that all dhammas are anatta, they don't belong to anyone. He taught the development of understanding and dispassion to whatever of 'the all" is conditioned at this moment. This is the practice, not a sitting, focussing with desire to be discarded later like the coconut husk. "Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. "And what, bhikkhus, is the all....? "The eye and forms and eye-consciousness......and things to be cognized by mind-consciousness. <....> "This, bhikkhus, is the all by directly knowing and fully understanding which, by developing dispassion towards which and abandoning which, one is capable of destroying suffering." (SN 27, 'Full Understanding') Thx again for sharing. Metta Sarah ======== #104107 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 10:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'He goes the way he had to go - why should I repine?' .. Sutta or Jataka? sarahprocter... Hi Chris & all, --- On Sun, 27/12/09, Christine wrote: >I thought I'd post the whole of the Uraga Jataka for (probably, my) future reference: Jataka No. 354 Uraga-Jataka ... S: I'm glad you did. It seems that we all appreciate this Jataka and its reminders a lot. We will all experience losses of beloved ones over and over again. I'd like to remind everyone that in "Useful Posts" there are many saved messages under "Death". In particular, there is a section under "Death6 - Mourning & Grief" which may be helpful to refer to at such times. As K.Sujin reminds us, the best preparation for such loss is awareness and understanding at this very moment. Metta Sarah ======= #104108 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 1:56 am Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 14. nilovg Dear Han and friends, The latent tendency of aversion. Further on in the Commentary we read to which dhamma the latent tendency of aversion pertains. The Yamaka states about the latent tendency of aversion as follows: To what does the latent tendency of aversion adhere? It adheres to unpleasant feeling The Commentary explains this text as follows: As regards the latent tendency of aversion, when it is said that it adheres to unpleasant feeling, this means that it adheres to three feelings, namely, to two kinds of unpleasant feeling [13] and to painful feeling that accompanies body-consciousness. Thus, the latent tendency of aversion adheres to unpleasant feeling (domanassa) in two ways: it arises together with it and it can also take feeling as object [14] . It adheres to (bodily) painful feeling because this feeling can be its object. When the latent tendency of aversion adheres to those feelings it also adheres to the accompanying dhammas such as perception (sa). The latent tendency of aversion is conascent with feeling and also with the other accompanying khandhas such as perception. It takes not only feeling as object but also the accompanying dhammas such as perception. Nevertheless, unpleasant feeling is truly predominant among the accompanying dhammas, and this happens when the latent tendency of aversion arises and is displeased with the unpleasant, painful experience. Therefore, the Buddha said: The latent tendency of aversion adheres to unpleasant feeling. He spoke thus, so that beings who were capable of being led to enlightenment might be able to realize (unpleasant) feeling since it is coarse. This is similar to what he said in the case of pleasant feeling that is coarse 15. The explanation in this text about the latent tendency of aversion is similar to the explanation about the latent tendency of sense desire that was given before. When there are the appropriate conditions the latent tendency of aversion causes the arising of akusala citta (pariyutthna kilesa) of aversion that is accompanied by unhappy feeling and the other khandhas of perception and formations (sakhrakkhandha) which arise at that moment. The usual object of akusala citta with aversion is an undesirable object such as unhappy feeling, painful feeling and the dhammas conascent with those feelings, and all nma dhammas and rpa dhammas that are not agreeable and pleasant are included. Therefore, when there are the appropriate conditions for the latent tendency of aversion to cause the arising of akusala citta rooted in aversion, this is accompanied by unhappy feeling and it experiences an undesirable object to which it attaches weight at that moment. In this way aversion continues to be accumulated again as latent tendency. Therefore it is said: The latent tendency of aversion adheres to unpleasant feeling and all dhammas such as rpa which are undesirable. ------- footnotes: 13. These two unhappy feelings accompany the two types of dosa-mla- citta, of which one is unprompted, asankhrika, and one prompted, sasankhrika. 14. The latent tendency of aversion itself does not arise, but it conditions the arising of akusala citta with aversion. We should remember the Conclusion of the Second Issue: When there are still latent tendencies there are conditions for the arising of pariyutthna defilements (medium defilements arising with the akusala citta) and these must be accompanied by feeling and other conascent dhammas. There is also an object that is appropriate for that kind of pariyutthna defilement, and when that defilement attaches weight to that object it is strong. When the akusala citta has fallen away, it conditions the accumulation of that defilement to go on as latent tendency. That is the meaning of latent tendencies adhering to feelings and objects. --------- Pali: pa.tighaanusayassa pana ``dukkhaaya vedanaayaa''ti vacanato dve domanassavedanaa kaayavi~n~naa.nasampayuttaa dukkhavedanaati tisso vedanaa anusayana.t.thaana.m. so panesa domanassavedanaasu sahajaatavasena aaramma.navasena caati dviihaakaarehi anuseti. avasesadukkhavedanaaya pana aaramma.navaseneva anuseti. taasu vedanaasu anusayamaano cesa taahi sampayuttesu sa~n~naakkhandhaadiisupi anusetiyeva. yaaya hi vedanaaya esa sahajaato, ta.msampayuttehi sa~n~naadiihipi sahajaatova. yaa ca vedanaa aaramma.na.m karoti, taahi sampayutte sa~n~naadayopi karotiyeva. eva.m santepi pana yasmaa dukkhavedanaava asaatadukkhavedayitattaa nirassaada.t.thena pa.tighaanusayassa uppattiyaa sesasampayuttadhammesu adhikaa; tasmaa ``dukkhaaya vedanaaya ettha pa.tighaanusayo anusetii''ti vutta.m, o.laarikavasena hi bodhaneyye sukha.m bodhetunti. ******** Nina. #104109 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'He goes the way he had to go - why should I repine?' .. Sutta or Jataka? gazita2002 Hallo Sarah, or anyone who can hellp, how do I access 'useful posts', and in particular the one you mention below. have been unsuccessful in my attempts .... thanking you azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Chris & all, > > --- On Sun, 27/12/09, Christine wrote: > >I thought I'd post the whole of the Uraga Jataka for (probably, my) future reference: > > Jataka No. 354 Uraga-Jataka > ... > S: I'm glad you did. It seems that we all appreciate this Jataka and its reminders a lot. > > We will all experience losses of beloved ones over and over again. I'd like to remind everyone that in "Useful Posts" there are many saved messages under "Death". In particular, there is a section under "Death6 - Mourning & Grief" which may be helpful to refer to at such times. > > As K.Sujin reminds us, the best preparation for such loss is awareness and understanding at this very moment. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > #104110 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 2:36 am Subject: links ....... gazita2002 Hallo Sarah and others, disregard the last post - have found what I;m looking for - ta patience, courage and good cheer, azita #104111 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'He goes the way he had to go - why should I repine?' .. Sutta or Jataka? nilovg Dear Sarah, -------- Sarah: > As K.Sujin reminds us, the best preparation for such loss is > awareness and understanding at this very moment. --------- N:Yes, we ask how can we be prepared for the loss of dear ones. I cannot be reminded enough, and that is why I like to post again part of a dialogue with Ken H.: < K: No matter how dire our circumstances, or what disaster may threaten us, everything will ultimately be the same as it is now - just a present, transitory, moment of nama and rupa - no self. --------- N: If there is understanding of nama or rupa appearing now there will be less the idea of a self who has to undergo suffering and distress. We may be distressed or sad, but there is also seeing experiencing visible object and at that moment citta does not experience the object of distress. Only one object at a time is experienced by citta. The next moment we may be distressed again, but then sound appears and citta hears sound. All the time only one object is experienced. This helps in times of mourning. -------- Nina. #104112 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 2:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] links ....... sarahprocter... Hi Azita & all, Before I disgregard your last message, for anyone else who is having difficulty finding Useful Posts and a subject within it, see this message pt wrote: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101586 Once in U.P., there is now a useful section under 'Techie challenged?' - but you have to find it first! Metta Sarah --- On Sat, 2/1/10, gazita2002 wrote: >disregard the last post - have found what I;m looking for - ta #104113 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 3:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] links ....... gazita2002 Thanks Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: #104112 > #104114 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 5:15 am Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Vince, apologies for the slow response... --- On Thu, 24/12/09, Vince wrote: >S: On "suchness" or "thusness" (tathaa), please let me know if the > following extract from an earlier message I wrote is relevant or helpful: > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/dhammastud ygroup/message/ 81154 V:>yes, very convenient in the thread. Thanks for the cites. >S: If we understand the realities being pointed to, starting with visible > object, the entire practice will be apparent. There is no other > reality or 'thusness' (as the Uttarapathakas and many others today > held/hold)of some underlying 'wholeness' of khandhas together. There > are just distinct conditioned elements or khandhas arising and > falling away and the unconditioned element, nibbana. V:> the Uttarapathakas view seem to be something similar to what in the Mahayana world represents the "Buddha nature" and the doctrine of the Tathagatagarbha. I have read some things around that time ago. They arise early in the Mahayana literature and also with intense discussions about immutability, suchness and emptiness. Today the influence of that view in the Mahayana is quite present. ... S: Yes, like the view on luminosity and so on - I think that what you point to above are the ideas that were developing at the time the Kathavatthu was expounded. The Buddha knew this would be the case and this is the reason he lay down the Mattika (contents) for the Kathavatthu for this time. I believe there is an idea of atta behind it all. ... V:>In Theravada sometimes I read things like this. What do you think? >"Meeting in one thing = union in the one-natured Nibbana: [...] >On account of the cause or on account of the sameness of entry into the one Nibbana, the Arousing of Mindfulness is said to be just one thing. The meeting in the one Nibbana of the various Arousings of Mindfulness is called the meeting in the one thing on account of participation in that one Nibbana or on account of their becoming all of a kind." http://www.accessto insight.org/ lib/authors/ soma/wayof. html ... S: I'm afraid it doesn't make any sense to me and I haven't read anything like it in the Theravada texts themselves. ... >On my side I don't feel able to confront views. I think the matter is to find the right way to point the thinking. >"As for the miracle where a certain person gives instruction in this way: 'Direct your thought in this way, don't direct it in that. Attend to things in this way, don't attend to them in that. Let go of this, enter and remain in that': this is the miracle that, of the three, appeals to me as the highest & most sublime." **AN 3.60 http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an03/an03. 060.than. html ... S: The quote refers to the miracle of (the Buddha's) instruction. From B.Bodhi's translation in his anthology of AN, p. 60: "And what, brahmin, is the miracle of instruction? There is one who instructs thus: 'You should think in this way and should not think in that way! You should attend to this and not to that! You should give up this and should dwell in the attainment of that!' This is called the miracle of instruction." S: "the miracle of instruction" = anusaasaniipaa.tihaariya. The commentary (as referred to by B.Bodhi) "gives as examples of such instruction: 'You should think thoughts of renunciation, not thoughts of sensuality. You should contemplate the idea of impermanence, not the idea of permanence. You should give up lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure and acquire the supramundane dhamma of the four paths and fruits.'" In AN 4s 128, we can read about the "marvellous things" associated with the Buddha's teaching beginning with how usually people delight in attachments, but when the Buddha teaches about non-attachment, people listen and understand it. Thanks for the discussion, Metta Sarah p.s Is there any chance of your returning to Bangkok in February when we'll have another (Italian) Vince joining the discussions...:-) ========== ======== #104115 From: han tun Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 5:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 14. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. In Burmese book it is almost the same, but shorter. Of course, your explanation is very much better. In Burmese book, it says: (1) In terms of puggala, it happens in puthujjana and sakadaagaami; not in anaagaami and arahant. (2) In terms of vedanaa, it happens in two domanassa vedanaas and in one dukkha vedanaa. In two domanassa vedanaas, it arises by way of aramma.na and sahajaata. In one dukkha vedanaa, it arises by way of aramma.na only. In such situations, it adheres not only to vedanaa, but also to other sahajaata dhammas. The accompanying sahajaata dhammas are dosamuu-dve-cittuppaada, dukkha-sahagataa-kaaya-vi~n~naa.na-cittuppaada, and sa-bhaava-viparita-ani.t.tha-ruupas. It adheres to these accompanying dhammas by way of aramma.na and sahajaata. (3) "anuseti" means the same as in kaama-raagaanusaya. Therefore, before dealing with puggala, and only dealing with ".thaana" or bhuumi, the question is: “kattha pa.tighaanusayo anuseti?” Emphasizing the three vedanaa, the answer is: "dukkhaaya vedanaaya ettha pa.tighaanusayo anuseti." ------------------------------ Han: In my notes, the above three vedanaas accompany the following cittas. Dosa-muula cittas (2) 1. Domanassa-sahagata.m pa.tigha-sampayutta.m asa"nkharika.m eka.m (One consciousness, accompanied by displeasure, associated with ill-will, unprompted) 2. Domanassa-sahagata.m pa.tigha-sampayutta.m sasa"nkharika.m eka.m (One consciousness, accompanied by displeasure, associated with ill-will, prompted) Ahetuka Cittas (rootless consciousness) Akusala vipaaka cittas (unwholesome resultant consciousness) 3. Dukkha-sahagata.m kaayavi~n~na.na.m (body-consciousness accompanied by painful feeling) --------------------------- Thank you very much once again for your very good explanation. Respectfully, Han #104116 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 5:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Happy Boxing Day was Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Mike N), --- On Sun, 27/12/09, scottduncan2 wrote: S: "...Scott, how about a frozen head diary up-date for Boxing Day 2009 as I get back to bed...." Scott: 'Frozen head' was like a week and a half ago when it hit minus 47 celsius (or who-really-cares- at-that-temperat ure, when we were like one of the coldest places on the planet) and the car was frozen for four days and we bussed it... .... S: !! Appreciated all your 'frozen head' and Boxing Day update - glad Chuck prompted it. On the news there was a flash of a frozen ice-hockey game somewhere with a lot of frozen heads watching it.....and we're fussing here about temperatures around 15C... anyway, glad you all survived. ... >Boxing Day, 2009: >The Little Ones have just gone out with the Big Ones - I guess to get out of the house. It's much more moderate today winter-wise; even sunny. Christmas dinner was over last night and about then I can start to relax a bit. Turkey came out nicely-cooked and all the other stuff was done at the same time and it all got served up at the same temperature so... ... S: Well-done! .... >Well, Mike N. and I have just continued our slow-as-molasses- in-January conversation about 'training,' this time, taking off from Nina mentioning Nakulapitar and the Buddha's suggestion to him that he 'should train thus' - eva.m sikkhitabba. m - 'Though my body is sick, my mind shall not be sick.' And I'm wondering about 'training' 'shoulds' and anatta and instructions and not so into the whole 99% wrong effort/1% right effort thing going on elsewhere. Everyone wants a 'should do' but I just don't think it works that way. I figure that that's about 100% wrong. ... S: Yes, we see eye-to-eye on all this, I know. Delighted as I was/am to have Dan break some ice in his usual controversial style, I didn't buy it:-) [Hi, Dan, stick around if you can.....thx so much for joining in the Festive season...] I'd love to see some of your slow-as-molasses discussion with Mike on the Nakuapitar sutta and the point you mention. Perhaps (with M's permission) you could share it with us. .... >I don't really yet know what the Buddha said to Nakulapitar or what it was supposed to mean or how he took it, let alone how to interpret should or training in the light of anatta. ... S: 'Should' was just used in the Bodhi translation of a sutta I just quoted (to Vince). In the PTS, it has: "Reason thus, not thus. Apply your mind thus, not thus. Abandon this state, acquire that state and abide therein." All under the miracle of teaching of the Buddha. I read it all as an encouragment, an inspirational urging to the development of understanding. Fire is on our heads, but it's all anatta. As to how it's taken, it all depends on the understanding of the listener - with or without any understanding that these are conditioned dhammas. Anyway, I'd like to read yours and Mike's reflections. It's good to read different view-points. ... >I guess I'm into passivity. And I mean what feels like passivity when I wonder what I *should* be doing. And I figure it just feels like I'm being passive. But I know that while the whole intriguing and energetic conceptually proliferated world rolls on, it is not at all how it seems. I'd say 'underneath' if I knew this was to be taken figuratively, but underneath all the stuff is no one or no thing that lasts. Understanding or mindfulness or wise attention will happen or not. Anatta is truly foundational and I can't get away from how a theoretical understanding of this simply precludes all speculation of 'should' or 'technique.' I certainly don't feel like getting all caught up in trying to do something because I know this is just to make me feel better and for what? Understanding would understand and maybe this would be training? .... S: Yes, again all as I see it. "Anatta is truly foundational." Without an understanding of dhammas now as anatta, it's all going to be 'Me' doing something. As Ken O said, without an understanding of citta, cetasika and rupa, it's all very confused, or something along those lines.... ... >Anyway, that's about all from this Frozen Head at the moment. I guess I'll go put something in a box now, or whatever it is I *should* be doing on Boxing Day, 2009. And you can bet that it will be done with the utmost of energy and alacrity. ;-) .... S: :-) Yes, the boxing day offerings. In England, wee used to give them to the postman, the dustman and other 'regulars' - rather like the Chinese New Year lai see here. It *should* be done with energy and alacrity and friendliness, of course! Metta Sarah ====== #104117 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 6:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 14. nilovg Dear Han, thank you for giving the Burmese version as well. Ma Vajhira in Palistudy list said something interesting: In Burmese book it is almost the same, but shorter. #104118 From: han tun Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 6:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 14. hantun1 Dear Nina, The Pali-Myanmar Dictionary that I have is compiled by U Hoke Sein and published in 1954. It is 7 inches by 9 inches and has 1180 pages. It did not mention anything about the Sixth Buddhist Council. The Sixth Buddhist Council was held from May 1954 to May 1956. So this book (the one that I have) could not have been written after the Sixth Buddhist Council. I do not know any other Pali-Myanmar Dictionary. I am doubtful even the one that I have is now available in Yangon. It is probably out of stock. Respectfully, Han #104119 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 7:18 am Subject: Happy Boxing Day was Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear Sarah (and Mike N.), Regarding: S: "...'Should' was just used in the Bodhi translation of a sutta I just quoted (to Vince). In the PTS, it has: "Reason thus, not thus. Apply your mind thus, not thus. Abandon this state, acquire that state and abide therein." All under the miracle of teaching of the Buddha. I read it all as an encouragment, an inspirational urging to the development of understanding. Fire is on our heads, but it's all anatta..." Scott: I was just clarifying with Mike yesterday why it is that I tend to be so careful around considering these things. We have the Buddha teaching Nakulapitar to think or reason one way, and not another. As you say, 'encouragement.' But how to understand this encouragement? Now, the Do-It-Your-Selfers will be all over this, suggesting that the Buddha is telling Nakulapitar to 'practice' by thinking about things in a certain way. I mean, one can read the Buddha to be saying that if you think this way - actively, as it were - about the body or feelings, then this is 'training,' and so, therefore, one should think this way in order to 'train.' You suggest that this is 'an inspirational urging.' How would thinking such thoughts be condition for further mental development? Are thoughts like this meant to be actively thought about over and over again? The thoughts are so slow, and so 'conscious' - like it seems we can just make ourselves think them - so I fail to see how deliberately thinking this way can lead to anything. I am aware that the Buddha was teaching the right way to think about things... Now for me, and this is what I was saying to Mike, having been enamoured of psychoanalytic postulates in my pre-Dhamma days, and not in any way considering Dhamma to be just some sort of quaint example of a proto-psychology, I'm very careful to consider the Dhamma from the point of view of anatta. One of the main aspects of the psychoanalytic enterprise is the notion of an Unconscious - that mental events can have an influence while remaining outside of awareness. Considering impermanence as being a function of the rapid arising and falling away of dhammaa, one can suggest that this amounts to 'unconscious process' since we are not aware of this arising and falling away. In other words, as far as it seems, there are no dhammas arising and falling away - it all seems to hold together coherently as is. By suggesting that something is occurring that is outside of normal perception, one might make the argument that this amounts of 'unconscious process.' I've not decided whether these ideas of unconscious process fit with the Dhamma. I don't read the Buddha to have taught that there are 'unconscious' mental processes, but this can be inferred. The Buddha wasn't making up psychological theories. If mental events roll on, and if it seems to ordinary perception that these are not happening, then this could be construed to amount to having established that there are effective elements of consciousness of which 'one' is not aware. The Buddha taught that wisdom can penetrate 'ordinary perception' and know dhammaa for what they are. He taught that this proceeds by development, and is not immediately apparent. Nakulapitar was very happy with what the Buddha taught him, but we don't read that he experienced the Path as a result. He had a new way to think of things, as far as it seems. He may have experienced a moment of naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naa.na, but this is speculative. The Dhamma makes it clear that there is no Self - no overarching personal agency. This would imply that I can't just take a thought that the Buddha suggested I think and think it, hoping for something to happen thereby - no matter how actively I think it or how often. If the Buddha gives certain things as inspiration to be thought about, how is one to understand this? The Buddha taught Nakulapitar the right way to think about his situation - feelings related to his experience of his aging body. I'd suggest that these thoughts are 'slow.' Thoughts have a coherence but this would be a function of sa~n~naa and other dhammaa, according to Abhidhamma. How would thinking this way help? Is one meant to understand that one ought to think this way? Or, would being taught by the Buddha, and understanding it, lead one to then think this way 'naturally' thereafter? At any rate, although none of the above is likely very clear, this is some of what I am considering. I'll leave it at that for now. Sorry, as usual, for my incoherence. Sincerely, Scott. #104120 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 9:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah I make some errors on attanudhitti and sakkayaditthi. AS said that attanudhitti is different from sakkayaditthi and sakkayaditthi is part of attanudhitti and attanudhitti is opposite of the view of anatta. IMHO, AS is also incorrect on attanudhitti. Attanudhitti is the same as sakkayaditthi. You wrote to Han and quote SN 22:155 (sakkayaditthi) and SN 22: 156 (attanuditthi), the sutta are the same because both of the terms are the same. If we see the Dispeller of Delusion pg 258 < ("the view of self") is wrong view which follows self. >> When I trace back the attanuditthi defintion to the Book of Analysis, it is the same as to sakkayaditthi The Book of Analysis pg 478 (describing attanudhitti) <<925.... Therein what is "soul view".... (same to sakkayaditthi definition)>> We can say ditthi comprises of the three ditthupadanam, silabatupadanam, attavadupaddanam. pse see The All Embracing Net of Views pg 130, (with commentary written by B Bodhi) where the Sub Comy describe sakkayadithi as part of the eternal view. The self and the world are eternal. pg 206, Dispeller of Delusion, 2281 <> Concepts should not be sakkayaditthi and also not attanuditthi as attanuditthi is same as sakkayaditthi. Taking concept as real should not be ditthi or doubt. It should be ignorance because the function of delusion is non penetration or its function is to conceal the individual essence of an object. And its proximate cause is unwise attention. IMHO unwise attention here refers to unwise attention to nama and rupa. I will discuss nama and rupa in more details with Jon Cheers Ken O ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ken O > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, 1 January 2010 2:23:10 > Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. > > Dear Sarah > > Thanks for the reference. > > >S: It is the same as attavaadupaadaana, as I understand. > > KO: If you put attavaadupaadaana as the same as attanuditthi then it should be > the same as sakkaya ditthi. I did see your post to Han. That is why I felt > when AS said that when someone clings to the concept of self, being, person, or > different things and really believes that they exist, there is the wrong view of > sakkya-ditthi (personality belief), is basing on this definition also. Again > to emphasis, as we equate concepts as reality, we take it as there is self or > being in concept. This is quite common especially when we grasp over > beautiful concepts. > . > >S: We can think about a car or a person with or without wrong view, with kusala > or akusala cittas too. To give an obvious example, when we think about people > with metta, there is no wrong view at such moments. > > KO: Everytime we take a man or car as a mental object and think that these > object as reality, that is wrong view. If we think the people is real that is > already wrong view, metta would not arise. When we think people as real, the > metta we think that arise could be lobha and not metta. When we see people in > terms of nama and rupa, then metta would be metta. > > >... > >S: On the contrary, although the latent tendency to wrong view is there of > course, there is no wrong view arising, because they don't have any ideas about > the nature of reality. This is why the latent tendencies are dangerous, like > "microbes" - they can manifest anytime. It's like someone with a drug addiction > who doesn't have their drug at this moment. It doesn't mean there's no > addiction. > > > > KO: Sorry a person who does not have any ideas of nature of reality means, its > really full of wrong views. Wrong view arise with lobha. A dog who is attached > to its partner is already wrong view when thinking its partner is real. A > child who is attached to his/her toy is also full of wrong view when thinking > the toy is real. > > An Interesting quote. The Book of Analysis. Analysis of small items pg 485 > <> of (wrong) habits and practices and the attachment of soul theory, all false > view is attachment to wrong view.>> > > That make life simple on attachement of wrong view. The particular chapter has > many description of wrong views in terms of threefold, fourfold, > fivefold etc :-) cheers > > > Ken O > #104121 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 10:02 am Subject: Revisit Space subject ashkenn2k Dear Sarah and Nina lets visit this subject again. In previous message, #99823 The Debates Commentary Ch 6, no 6: Nina wrote in #99095 So, actually, there are 3 asankhata dhammas: a) pa~n~natti (concepts), b) aakaasa (space) [an-antaakaasa, not pariccheda aakaasa] c) nibbana. KO: IMHO, the debates commentary defintion are the correct one. An-antaakaasa is a concept that is why it is uncondition. But how do we reconcile the later statements in Milinda Again in Milinda Pa~nha in the same chapter [13], Nagasena says: "Whatever beings are cognisant, sire, all these are born of kamma. Fire and everything born of seeds are born of cause. The earth and the mountains and water and wind are all born of physical change. Aakaasa and nibbaana - these two - are not born of kamma, not born of cause, not born of physical change." KO: Because concepts are not born, so is not born of kamma "As, sire, aakaasa is not born, does not age, does not die, does not decease (here), does not arise (elsewhere), is hard to master, cannot be carried off by thieves, depends on nothing (anissata), is the sphere of birds (vihagamana - lit. goes through the air), without obstruction, unending, even so, sire, is nibbaana, not born, does not age, does not die, does not decease, does not arise, is hard to master, cannot be carried off by thieves, depends on nothing, is the sphere of ariyans, without obstruction, unending. These, sire, are the eleven special qualities of aakaasa that are present in nibbaana." KO: In 192 VI 6, Points of Controversy <<[1] Th: - If space is uncondtioned as you affirm, you must class it with Nibbana or you must affirm two [sorts of] conditioend - and so two Nibbana - all of which you deny.>> This reinforce that space is a concept and not a reality. KO: Further quotes that space is a concept as in objects of Jhanas and as in concepts itself. 1) as an object of jhana where it mentions boundless space as an object of meditation. Space Element: Dispeller of Delusion Part I <357> In the description of the external space element, asamphuttam catuhi mahabhutehi <85.1> ("untouched by the four great primaries") should be understood as what is freed from the four great primaries begining with a break in a wall, a break in a doorway. By this is describe that space whereby, when doing preliminary work on it, fourfold or fivefold jhana arises. 2) Like those define in Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma. pg 319 under the Analysis of Concepts. pg 319 - Hole in well and caves depending on the manner of not being touched pg 321 - Such as wells and caves: wells, caves, holes and so on are concepts of space. Cheers Ken O #104122 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 10:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah sorry should be an error on this statement with commentary written by B Bodhi should be commentary translated by B Bodhi thanks ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ken O #104120 > > #104123 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 10:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is the practice so difficult and arduous? - Ajahn Chah truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > .... > S: Wisdom, yes. Right practice does not mean sitting with desire and I don't think the Buddha said "don't do it [anything] with desire". He taught that all dhammas are anatta, they don't belong to anyone. > > He taught the development of understanding and dispassion to whatever of 'the all" is conditioned at this moment. This is the practice, not a sitting, focussing with desire to be discarded later like the coconut husk. > > "Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. > > "And what, bhikkhus, is the all....? > > "The eye and forms and eye-consciousness......and things to be cognized by mind-consciousness. > <....> > > "This, bhikkhus, is the all by directly knowing and fully understanding which, by developing dispassion towards which and abandoning which, one is capable of destroying suffering." (SN 27, 'Full Understanding') > > Thx again for sharing. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > Hi Sarah, About "directly knowing and fully understanding" as it is: IMHO it is done with direct observation and without lust/dislike, etc. The reality is what it is and not what our defilements want it to be. One cannot really understand when lust and anger are present. This is why samatha is important, to pacify lust/hatred and prepare the field to see what trully is. With metta, Alex #104124 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject nilovg Dear Ken O, I also have found this a difficult subject. Op 2-jan-2010, om 19:02 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > pg 321 - Such as wells and caves: wells, caves, holes and so on > are concepts of space. -------- N: I recently read this again. I would say, wells, caves, holes themselves are concepts. But what is in it? Space, just as space in between the groups of rupa. but I do not want to think much about it, it is not helpful for me at the moment. ------ Nina. #104126 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 3:10 pm Subject: On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding truth_aerator Hello KenO, Sarah, Nina all, 1) When one does deep samatha one focus all one's attention at a small area in nama. The more one magnifies something (quality) the less other things (quantity) are present. (picture it as putting a sample under a microscope. You see less area, but more detail) That is done to see clearer a certain aspect of nama, something that cannot be seen when the mind is distracted among 6 senses. Then you apply that knowledge (of the mind and mental processes) to other experiences. Example: A bottle filled with salt or sugar that is diffused in it. With one taste and knowledge of certain laws you can know how all water in that bottle tastes like. When you taste a bit of ocean, you can be reasonably certain that all ocean tastes like that (assuming that nothing else is added to it). So in this way samatha is very important for direct experience that may not be directly seen otherwise. I mean all, even non-Buddhists can see impermanence (ebb and flow of water. Flowers growing, waning and dying. sounds appearing and disappearing). Yet these facts don't make one Enlightened. Maybe the things perceived in daily life, or in 6 senses taken together are too coarse. Putting 100% attention to one sense door (such as the mind) may reveal much more previously unseen detail than putting 16.7% (100/6) attention to the mind. 2nd) Samatha pacifies hindrances (such as lust or hatred), and the deeper/longer the Samatha the more hindrances are temporary pacified. Thus without hindrances, vipassana can proceed much better. Considering the amount of hindrances we have today, this is an important point. So what we have is: 1) More attention to finer detail. 2) Calming the hindrances, obstacles which hinder understanding.AN5.51 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html 3) All wrong views come with lobha rooted citta. Samatha pacifies lobha, so wrong views at that time cannot arise in a learned person. That also helps to gain more understanding. With metta, Alex #104127 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 3:49 pm Subject: On importance of samatha - Part2 truth_aerator Dear Nina, RobertK2, KenH, KenO, Sarah, Scott, Jon, all, Lets say we take two Buddhists. Both have same amount of understanding. You could wake up any of them in the middle of the night, take a pin through an Abhidhamma book, and any of them will be able to say which words the pin went through. One didn't do samatha practice, the other has done a lot of right Samatha. Question: Which person will reach maggaphala faster? With metta, Alex #104128 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 5:48 pm Subject: Re: On importance of samatha - Part2 scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "Lets say we take two Buddhists. Both have same amount of understanding. You could wake up any of them in the middle of the night, take a pin through an Abhidhamma book, and any of them will be able to say which words the pin went through. One didn't do samatha practice, the other has done a lot of right Samatha. "Question: Which person will reach maggaphala faster?" Scott: Answer: The one whose duck was able to hit high C at midnight while calculating pi to 432 decimal places, of course. (Note that this had to have been a mallard duck; a drake, not a hen; post- not pre-moult; and fully conversant in seven of the eleven 'magical' languages known to have been spoken on Delta Prime prior to the Second Inclination of the Pteros Rhinos Dynasty - Mach I, not Mach II). Sincerely, Scott. #104129 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 6:06 pm Subject: Re: On importance of samatha - Part2 truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "Lets say we take two Buddhists. Both have same amount of understanding. You could wake up any of them in the middle of the night, take a pin through an Abhidhamma book, and any of them will be able to say which words the pin went through. One didn't do samatha practice, the other has done a lot of right Samatha. > > "Question: Which person will reach maggaphala faster?" > > Scott: Answer: The one whose duck was able to hit high C at midnight while calculating pi to 432 decimal places, of course. (Note that this had to have been a mallard duck; a drake, not a hen; post- not pre-moult; and fully conversant in seven of the eleven 'magical' languages known to have been spoken on Delta Prime prior to the Second Inclination of the Pteros Rhinos Dynasty - Mach I, not Mach II). > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Dear Scott, all, I do not understand your answer. The question is: understanding being equal, who will reach maggaphala faster. Person who has never done samatha, or who is very proficient in the right samatha? With metta, Alex #104130 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 8:31 am Subject: Re: conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas ksheri3 Hi Vince, > yes, everything what we do in order to understand is practice. > As I have told you, in my case I'm interesting to know how to fit > abhidhamma in the way. colette: EXCELLENT OBESRVATION. You have strucken upon the ACTUALITY of NUAMENA and PHANONMENA which is the entire basis of THE MIND ONLY SCHOOL (aka MADHYAMIKA), and the regular world. AHHHHHHHHH, but under the MADHYAMIKA RULES & REGS we run into this problem, the problem of NOT MIND ONLY GENERATED. We are nunfortunately stuck in an ACEDEMIC WORLD and these adcedemics require the exact character generation which satisfies their robotic consciousness. LET IT GO! <...> VINCE: WHY IS THE ABHIDHARMA DIFFERENT FROM THE WAY, as you speak it? The Abhidharma is nothing more than a WAKE UP CALL: the abhidharma keeps you awake as you traverse this neverending WHEEL OF SAMSARA. NOpe, bad vibes come up. GOTTA GO. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > Dear Nina > > you wrote: > > > N:You indicated before that you are interested in practice. Sarah > > writes just now about understanding the present reality. > > Sarah: > only. Like the simile of the chariot wheel in the Vism. - it's > > circumference just touches the ground at one point. Only the present > > moment exists. What's gone has completely gone, the future hasn't > come yet.>> > > > yes, everything what we do in order to understand is practice. > As I have told you, in my case I'm interesting to know how to fit > abhidhamma in the way. <...> #104131 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 9:46 am Subject: "'Cause I'm a Joker, I'm a smoker, I'm a midnight toker" S. Miller ksheri3 HI Ken, > When you hit your head on the wall, is the hurt real or illusion. The hurt is real but head we have is an illusion. The colour, the hardness, the temperate characteristics of the head are all real but the head is not real. When we go rebirth to another being and have another head, this another head would not be the same HITTING YOUR HEAD AGAINST A WALL. sounds like a good heading, should we differentiate the characteristics of this wall that a head is being beaten against or shall we differentiate the characteristics of this head that is being beaten against the wall? <..> Look man, you want to establish an EXISTANT THING, a RUPA, and then you want to tell me how this thing is gonna be established. FINE. I am allowed to NEGOTIATE HERE, just as the management cannot possibly realize then value of the labor that is put in which manifests the manager's tabel or the bread on that managers table or the security that the manager has when the maganer closes their eyes and sleeps under the impression/hallucination on waking up. Come on, does a herion addict inject drugs into their veins and knowingly EXPECT the exact same sensation to occur? How can a person go to sleep and expect the exact same occurance to occur each and every night? IF SO, how the hell can you expect me to even consider that your propoganda is worthy of belief? Please, give me a little COMMON SENSE, huh? ------------------------------- > The colour, the hardness, the temperate characteristics of the head are all real but the head is not real. colette: no problem. Good observation. COLOUR: where does that come from, what does that pertain to? HARDNESS: where does that come from, what does that pertain to? TEMPERATE CHARACTERISTICS: where does that come from, what does that pertain to? NOW THAT WE SPEAK OF SUCH TRANSIENT THINGS THAT YOU HALLUCINATE AND THAT YOU WANT ME TO HALLUCINATE SO THAT I CAN NOT EXIST IF YOU DO NOT EXIST EXTENDING THIS HALLUCINATION TO MY SHUNYA MIND, <...> GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU AND HAVE THIS "BANTY ABOUT" IN THE BEGINING OF MY NEW YEAR. We can talk about this further, I'm sure. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear colette > > > > >Yes, if a person studies Nama and Rupa they are studying them at the present moment, and this is a two dimensional reality which exists 100% of the time. Yes, that two dimensional reality is only an ILLUSION that exists 100% of the time. > > > >How do you transcend that ILLUSION? > > > When you hit your head on the wall, is the hurt real or illusion. The hurt is real but head we have is an illusion.<...> #104132 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 4:34 pm Subject: Focus 2010... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Mere Wishing cannot produce Happiness! May 2010 become more Calm, due to better focus on Tranquillity... May 2010 become more Modest by renouncing all puffed Pride... May 2010 become more Peaceful by giving up all Anger and Hate... May 2010 become less Painful by relinquishing all Craving and Clinging... May 2010 become less Discontent by cultivation of Rejoicing Mutual Joy... May 2010 become entirely Happy through the eradication of Ignorance! Yeah! How to Meditate? Check here: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Manual/Meditation.Manual.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Focus 2010... #104133 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 10:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A note about 'wrong practice' sarahprocter... Hi Dan, A belated response and a Happy New Year! Thx for dropping by with style and controversial comments as usual:). I touched on your comments in another post, let me discuss a little more fully, now. --- On Sun, 27/12/09, Daniel wrote: >Sitting in a corner, eyes closed, intentionally focusing on the touch of breath on the upper lip or the rise and fall of the abdomen or the "light" that settles on the tip of the nose as concentration intensifies; or conscientiously avoiding intoxicants, killing things, and the rest; or listening to Dhamma talks and reading suttas and Abhidhamma-- -99.99% wrong practice, but the more the better! ... S: I certainly wouldn't agree with "the more the better!" ... >To make room for the Sammas, every aspect and nuance of micchas need to explored, understood, and eradicated. The micchas are deeply rooted, subtle, and finely divided--no way to eradicate them without thoroughly understanding them. ... S: When the Sammas see the danger of harming or wishing ill of other beings, there's no need to become a mass-slaughterer, a sex-addict or a serial fibber to really explore the issue, is there? Similarly, when the Sammas begin to see the harm of self-views and attachment to results for oneself, there's no need to become a Serial Wrong View Control Freak to check out the grossest aspects of the delusion. .... >"Wrong practice" (like first deciding "I'm going to sit at the roots of a tree to practice anapanasati" or "I'm going to make a strong determination to keep the five precepts" or "I'm going to walk slowly and note the 'lifting-moving- placing' of the feet or "I'm going to do the thing of imagining the body as hair-bones-pus- blood-phlegm- bile-etc. " or "I'm going to listen to and try to understand a Dhamma talk with KS"...and then setting out to do these things) has its benefits--wondrous, indispensable three-fold benefits. First is the mundane benefits of, say, being nice to people by not stealing their stuff and respecting them as more than pleasure hormone generators and the of recharging the mind and spirit by calm and peaceful contemplation and retreat. Next, with greater wrong effort, it gradually becomes clearer and clearer how strongly rooted we are in lobha/dosa/moha. .... S: Pursuing wrong practice to find this out would be an example of wrong view and practice in itself, as I see it. Sure, any dhamma can be known and can be a condition for right view (including the wrong view if it's known as such), but this would be a very round about and confused (imho) way of seeing any light. As the Buddha put it, simply, wrong view and wrong practice leads to more wrong view and is to be abandoned, not encouraged for any reason. ... >And as we become more and more adept at seeing the subtleties and nuances of our wrong efforts, ... S: Maybe, maybe not, if such wrong efforts are being pursued... ... >the understanding arises that "we" can't "do" anything about lobha/dosa/moha because everything that "we" try, fails. The descriptions may end up similar to an intellectual understanding that, say, "formal practice is 'wrong view' because there's always a subtle notion of an 'I' that control dhammas," the understanding is quite different. ... S: The right understanding you describe develops *in spite of* the many moments of wrong view and wrong practice you describe, not because of them. ... >After a life spent in the pursuit of knowledge, Faust said, "I now do see that we can nothing know." As a final summary of an important wisdom, it rings true, but as a starting point it would be self-deception: picture a freshman coming to college and quoting Faust to justify his indolence... ... S: Better indolence than plotting to be a terrorist or pursuing other wrong practices, so that such thoughts and deeds may be "thoroughly understood". Metta Sarah ======= #104134 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 10:11 pm Subject: My Conclusion upon contemplation Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as the abse sarahprocter... Hi Chuck & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > One of my favorite Dhammapada verses... verse 61: > > > > ... snip > > > > > > In the Dhammapada verse 61: > > > > > > "If, in your course, you don't meet > > > your equal, your better, > > > then continue your course, > > > firmly, > > > alone. > > > There's no fellowship with fools." ... S: Does this mean that we physically avoid all such "fools" or does it not mean that we avoid association with the wrong view of such "fools"? In other words, surely it's by developing more and more right understanding and other wholesome tendencies, we're less and less 'tainted' by such views. For example, a sotapanna thinks about a computer just as we do, but without any wrong ideas about it existing as a reality. They continue to hear and read all sorts of wrong ideas, but are not affected by these as there is no more doubt or wavering of confidence about what the Truths are. Metta Sarah ====== #104135 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 10:21 pm Subject: Re: about "reification monster" sarahprocter... Hi Alex & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: >>H:It is just a manner of speaking. We speak of relations, but there are > > no things by that name. > > >A: But the citta are not things either. They are listed as ultimate dhammas, so why not relations which are not things as well be listed as equal ultimate dhammas? ... S: The conditions (paccaya) are the ultimate dhammas themselves. For example, take the first paccaya, hetu paccaya - this is lobha, for example, itself. The lobha conditions the other cetasikas and the lobha-rooted citta it accompanies by being a 'foundation' or 'root' for them to arise. So the 'relation' or connection in regard to hetu paccaya is the hetu or lobha itself, as I see it. Hope this helps. Metta Sarah ===== #104136 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 10:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. sarahprocter... Hi Chris, Again, many thanks for your kind thoughts. --- On Mon, 28/12/09, Christine wrote: >I've slipped away a few times - but always find myself returning to Dhammastudygroup for honest, ethical, supportive Dhamma Friends. >As the Blessed One told Ven. Ananda about Admirable Friendship: - "Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path." (As AN 8.54 points out, this means not only associating with good people, but also learning from them and emulating their good qualities.) http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ sn/sn45/sn45. 002.than. html ... S: I had almost quoted the same sutta for the "10 years on":-) We also appreciate the "admirable friendship" here over the years. I like the extra note you added - as you (and the sutta) suggests, it's not just the meeting or associating with 'good people', but 'the learning from' that is important. Many people 'associated with' the Buddha, in the sense of meeting/hearing him, but did not benefit or truly associate with him at the time (though there may have been conditions for benefit later). We look forward to further wise association with you and all in the year to come. Metta Sarah ===== #104137 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 10:34 pm Subject: Re: Computer Problems sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I've been having major computer trouble. I had to restore the contents of my hard disk, redownload my antivirus software, and more. I'm still having major problems w/AOL software, and at any time I may find myself unable to send or read mail. So please bear with me if I seem to have fallen off the face of the earth. ... S: I was sorry to hear about this - you seem to have had quite a few major computer problems during the year. Do hope all is fixed now and that 2010 is a Happy Computer Year for you! Metta Sarah ===== #104138 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 10:32 pm Subject: Re: Morality & Stream enterer sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > Does reaching stream entry perfects morality (and other relevant things), or does perfecting morality (and other relevant things) leads to stream entry? > > What is your opinion? ... S: I'd say that stream entry 'perfects' morality '(and other relevant things)'. However, it is only by the development of the path that the stage of stream entry is reached and such adhi-siila is perfected. Metta Sarah ======== #104139 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 11:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "'Cause I'm a Joker, I'm a smoker, I'm a midnight toker" S. Miller ashkenn2k Hi Colette >HITTING YOUR HEAD AGAINST A WALL. > >sounds like a good heading, should we differentiate the characteristics of this wall that a head is being beaten against or shall we differentiate the characteristics of this head that is being beaten against the wall? > KO: We shall experience the characerteristics as it comes to which sense. Maybe we are not looking at the wall and we bang onto it. If the most prominent sense object is pain, we should be aware of it. Thereafter we tends to look at what we hit, this should be seeing object, the colour of the object. Not just wall, we could bang against the door or windows made of glass, it is still hard and painful. The object could be of different colour. >Look man, you want to establish an EXISTANT THING, a RUPA, and then you want to tell me how this thing is gonna be established. FINE. I am allowed to NEGOTIATE HERE, just as the management cannot possibly realize then value of the labor that is put in which manifests the manager's tabel or the bread on that managers table or the security that the manager has when the maganer closes their eyes and sleeps under the impression/hallucin ation on waking up. Come on, does a herion addict inject drugs into their veins and knowingly EXPECT the exact same sensation to occur? How can a person go to sleep and expect the exact same occurance to occur each and every night? IF SO, how the hell can you expect me to even consider that your propoganda is worthy of belief? > >Please, give me a little COMMON SENSE, huh? >------------ --------- --------- - KO: Hmm I am not propagating or promoting any new believe. I am explaining as what I understand from what I heard, read and discussions on the Abhidhamma. I cannot force others to believe nama and rupa, it is not easy to believe because it goes against our fundamental attachment to a self. To understand nama and rupa will result one tearing away ones assumption, there is a self that practise. This could be frightening, confusing and at times to some outride ridiculous or blasphemy. This is because it goes against the teachings in the suttas that there is a self that is practising, putting effort. >COLOUR: where does that come from, what does that pertain to? KO: the eye citta is the one perceiving the colour. But the colour of a head is produced by kamma and nutrient >HARDNESS: where does that come from, what does that pertain to? KO: the arisen of the body citta experiencing hardness object. It is basic block of rupas. The four elements > >TEMPERATE CHARACTERISTICS: where does that come from, what does that pertain to? KO: same as hardness, it is the body citta > >NOW THAT WE SPEAK OF SUCH TRANSIENT THINGS THAT YOU HALLUCINATE AND THAT YOU WANT ME TO HALLUCINATE SO THAT I CAN NOT EXIST IF YOU DO NOT EXIST EXTENDING THIS HALLUCINATION TO MY SHUNYA MIND, > ><...> >GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU AND HAVE THIS "BANTY ABOUT" IN THE BEGINING OF MY NEW YEAR. KO: Understanding that we are just namas and rupas would help us to prevent hallunicating. We have been hallucinating there is self in this body, in this head, in this feeling for aeons and aeons. There is why it is called miccha ditthi, the sixty-two heretical views which include believe there is self in the body/form/rupa. How can dhamma that is not self practise by a self? Again IMHO how can a hallucination of self which could not found in the aggregates at all, assume I could practise. When we think a self practise, we end up doing more harm than good because we ask truthfully in us, where is the self to be found? Where, if one can find it, honestly please show me. In the end, its up to one consideration of dhamma. Reflect it constantly to understand what is right for onself. Most imptly, where is the self? Why most impt, because right view is foremost, and also because one reach enlightment by firstly get rid of wrong view and doubt. cheers Ken O #104140 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 12:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah I should make another amendement to my statements after reading Visud on the Purification of View which I will discuss with Jon in another email. My earlier statement that taking concepts as real should not be ditthi or doubt is wrong. Taking concept as real should be ditthi after reading into purification of view as Visud illustrate that nama and rupa must be known for one to attain 1st stage of enlightment. By understanding nama and rupa, IMHO one will be clear on concepts. But taking concept as real should not be sakkayaditthi or attanuditthi, IMHO it is still under ditthi itself as we believe concept is permament, as something that could be obtain since it is permanent. Sorry for the confusion. Cheers Ken O #104141 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 1:26 am Subject: Verse 61 was My Conclusion upon contemplation dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, warm thanks for your response. > > > ... snip > > > > > > > > In the Dhammapada verse 61: > > > > > > > > "If, in your course, you don't meet > > > > your equal, your better, > > > > then continue your course, > > > > firmly, > > > > alone. > > > > There's no fellowship with fools." > ... > S: Does this mean that we physically avoid all such "fools"... C: Imho, if in our mundane, puthujjana mind, we perceive a person as such, yes. Sarah: ...or does it not mean that we avoid association with the wrong view of such "fools"? C: Imho, if in our mundane, puthujjana mind, the person we perceive as a "fool"; we should avoid regardless the deficiency. Sarah: In other words, surely it's by developing more and more right understanding and other wholesome tendencies, we're less and less 'tainted' by such views. C: I do not understand your statement. [bummers] Sarah: For example, a sotapanna thinks about a computer just as we do, but without any wrong ideas about it existing as a reality. They continue to hear and read all sorts of wrong ideas, but are not affected by these as there is no more doubt or wavering of confidence about what the Truths are. C: As I am not a sotapanna, I have no comment on the sotapanna. > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104142 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'He goes the way he had to go - why should I repine?' .. Sutta or Jataka? sarahprocter... Dear Nina (Ken H & all), --- On Sat, 2/1/10, Nina van Gorkom wrote: < K: No matter how dire our circumstances, or what disaster may threaten us, everything will ultimately be the same as it is now - just a present, transitory, moment of nama and rupa - no self. --------- S: Yes, he put it well and I look forward to hearing more from his New Year Dhamma Diary! Panna, right understanding is not afraid of anything. We fear the loss of pleasant feeling, but whether it's pleasant or unpleasant feeling arising at this moment, it's transitory and not self, as Ken H said. We don't have to fear anything at all - by developing satipatthana, we let anything come, any nama or rupa which is conditioned to arise, usually quite unexpectedly. We can just understand whatever appears as it is. When right understandng arises, it is not attached or averse to any reality. ... >N: If there is understanding of nama or rupa appearing now there will be less the idea of a self who has to undergo suffering and distress. ... S: Yes, less thought or concern about "Me, Me, Me" and my difficulties (or imagined difficulties) or situation. When there is metta and consideration for others, like when we share Dhamma with friends here or think of the welfare of those around us, there is also no thought of one's own suffering and distress. ... >We may be distressed or sad, but there is also seeing experiencing visible object and at that moment citta does not experience the object of distress. Only one object at a time is experienced by citta. The next moment we may be distressed again, but then sound appears and citta hears sound. All the time only one object is experienced. This helps in times of mourning. ... S: For me, remembering that life exists in a moment, this very moment and even more so, being aware now, is very sobering and calming. No distress, no excitement whenever sati arises (of any degree or kind). Metta Sarah ========== #104143 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 1:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ashkenn2k Dear Nina and Sarah I am talking about open space, and not rupa as first mode thanks Ken O > > >lets visit this subject again. In previous message, #99823 > The Debates Commentary Ch 6, no 6: > > >Nina wrote in #99095 >So, actually, there are 3 asankhata dhammas: >a) pa~n~natti (concepts), >b) aakaasa (space) [an-antaakaasa, not pariccheda aakaasa] >c) nibbana. > >KO: IMHO, the debates commentary defintion are the correct one. An-antaakaasa is a concept that is why it is uncondition. But how do we reconcile the later statements in Milinda > >Again in Milinda Pa~nha in the same chapter [13], Nagasena says: >"Whatever beings are cognisant, sire, all these are born of kamma. Fire >and everything born of seeds are born of cause. The earth and the >mountains and water and wind are all born of physical change. Aakaasa >and nibbaana - these two - are not born of kamma, not born of cause, not >born of physical change." > >KO: Because concepts are not born, so is not born of kamma > >"As, sire, aakaasa is not born, does not age, does not die, does not >decease (here), does not arise (elsewhere), is hard to master, cannot be >carried off by thieves, depends on nothing (anissata), is the sphere of >birds (vihagamana - lit. goes through the air), without obstruction, >unending, even so, sire, is nibbaana, not born, does not age, does not >die, does not decease, does not arise, is hard to master, cannot be >carried off by thieves, depends on nothing, is the sphere of ariyans, >without obstruction, unending. These, sire, are the eleven special >qualities of aakaasa that are present in nibbaana." > >KO: In 192 VI 6, Points of Controversy ><<[1] Th: - If space is uncondtioned as you affirm, you must class it with Nibbana or you must affirm two [sorts of] conditioend - and so two Nibbana - all of which you deny.>> >This reinforce that space is a concept and not a reality. > >KO: Further quotes that space is a concept as in objects of Jhanas and as in concepts itself. > >1) as an object of jhana where it mentions boundless space as an object of meditation. >Space Element: Dispeller of Delusion Part I ><357> In the description of the external space element, asamphuttam catuhi >mahabhutehi <85.1> ("untouched by the four great primaries") should be >understood as what is freed from the four great primaries begining with a break >in a wall, a break in a doorway. By this is describe that space whereby, when >doing preliminary work on it, fourfold or fivefold jhana arises. > >2) Like those define in Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma. pg 319 under the Analysis of Concepts. >pg 319 - Hole in well and caves depending on the manner of not being touched >pg 321 - Such as wells and caves: wells, caves, holes and so on are concepts of space. > #104144 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 4 factors for stream entry & role of samatha sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Sat, 2/1/10, truth_aerator wrote: > >About 4 factors for stream entry. ... > S: I wouldn't call them 'steps'. We have to continue to associate >with, hear, consider, reflect, develop understanding of the Dhamma. >Never enough, over and over as Nina wrote. ... A:> Similar with Meditation (bhavana). ... S: What I wrote above is bhavana. It is this development of bhavana that leads to stream entry. ... >Cultivation of wholesome states is not "a one shot and forget it" deal. When someone has said about "shotgun approach" of effort, imho it is same as saying "Never enough, over and over". ... S: I don't understand what you're saying. I've already said here that the cultivation, the bhavana, is "never enough, over and over.." ... >One of the things that I was considering is that wrong views are aspects of CLINGING (upadana) and according to CMA all cittas that come with wrong views are lobha rooted cittas. ... S: Yes, all di.t.thi (wrong view) arises with lobha rooted cittas. Of the 4 kinds of upadana (clinging), 3 are with wrong view. ... >So even "mere" samatha practice IS very beneficial for dealing with wrong views. The more samatha, the less lobha. The less lobha, the less wrong views. ... S: This would be temporarily at best. This is why samatha development is the temporary suppression of defilements, but it does nothing to eradicate di.t.thi or to lead out of samsara. This why, as in the sutta I quoted yesterday or the day before, it can be included in wrong path or wrong practice. .... >Of course as is with everything, even a good tool may be misused. It is not the screwdrivers fault that it can be used as a weapon. It is how you handle it, that matters. ... S: It's not a matter of a misuse of samatha development or jhana attainment. These are highly developed wholesome attainements, but they are not the Path out of samsara. ... >Right view starts with things like: affirming that there is good and bad action (kusala /akusala kamma). Affirmation of action and its consequences (kammavipaka) That there is the path and causes for attaining Nibbana. ... S: Without beginning to understand dhammas as anatta, without beginning to understand the distinction between namas and rupas by clearly understanding realities now, there is no use in affirming that there is a path and there is no understanding of what kusala/akusala kamma is. So it all comes back to right understanding at the very beginning. Metta Sarah ======== #104145 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Phil), --- On Fri, 1/1/10, scottduncan2 wrote: >>Sarah: "...I quite understand the point of friends like Phil posting their 'reservations' . I'm sure we all have various 'reservations' of one kind or other about what we read or hear and it can be helpful to express them. Some people may disagree with some of us when they write here and then quote what we say when they speak to others...all very common, I'd think. It's the same in live discussions, people join in or listen in spite of reservations or having different ideas. Personally, I welcome this..." >Scott: All of the above makes total sense to me. Sorry to have caused concern. I was hoping to lure Phil into a bit of a longer discussion.. . .. S: No concern at all - was happy to read your discussion with Phil and was just 'sounding off'. When friends refer to a 'DSG view' or suggesting they're dojo busting or that any views by any of us or KS shouldn't be challenged, I just don't agree, that's all! Without different views, different interpretations, there are no discussions usually. Take Ken H as an example - very tardy when it comes to his Dhamma diary to Nina and as for the Vism installments - well, it just didn't happen. But find someone with some serious wrong views about meditation (in his eyes, of course) and then, bingo!! Of course, we're all different in this regard. I can also appreciate friends like yourself preferring to just discuss texts with others who also read them in the light of conditioned dhammas, anatta and no control, not taking any 'shoulds' literally. Anyway, you did a good job in luring Phil into writing a long message - somehow I always smile when I read his messages, even when they're just a long list of his 'reservations':-)) Of course, he's a writer....!! Metta Sarah ========= #104146 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 2:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about awareness now sarahprocter... Dear Ken O & all, (I will get to all the 'meaty' topics in due course - be patient!) Meanwhile, I loved this one (to Alex): --- On Tue, 29/12/09, Ken O wrote: >in the first place there is no self in any dhammas, it is because of ignorance and craving we live in a world of self. Forceful study is useless, because it contain a belief that "I" must do more effort or make more effort. This is wrong effort because there is an "I". We must go back to the basic line, when there is seeing, is there a self involved? There is no need to be forceful about seeing. It arise because of condition. So why being forceful about it?< ... Metta Sarah p.s All, my mother arrives on Thursday to stay with us for just under 3 wks, so I'll try to get as up-to-date as I can with replies before that, but will then have more limited computer time for that period. ======= #104147 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 2:16 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, In tranquil meditation one develops calm by concentrating on a meditation subject in order to be temporarily free from sense impressions and the attachment which is bound up with them. Insight meditation is the development of direct understanding of all realities occurring in daily life. The goal of insight meditation is the eradication of wrong view and all other defilements. Insight or insight wisdom is not theoretical understanding of mental phenomena and physical phenomena, it is understanding which directly experiences the characteristics of realities. There are many misunderstandings with regard to the word meditation. Some people want to meditate without understanding what meditation is, what its object and its aim are. Meditation is seen as escapism, a way to be free from the problems of daily life. One believes that when one sits in a quiet place and concentrates on one object one can become relaxed and free from worry. Relaxation is desirable, but it is not the aim of mental development. As regards tranquil meditation, this is the development of calm. It is essential to have right understanding of what calm is. True calm has to be wholesome, it is freedom from defilements. As I explained before, akusala citta can be rooted in three unwholesome roots: attachment, aversion and ignorance. These roots have many degrees, they can be coarse or more subtle. Kusala citta is rooted in the wholesome roots of non-attachment and non-aversion and it may be rooted as well in wisdom or understanding. In order to have right understanding of ones cittas one should investigate them in daily life. Otherwise one may take for kusala what is akusala. It is generally believed that if there is no aversion, no annoyance, there is calm. One should know, however, that when there is no aversion there is not necessarily kusala citta. There may be a subtle attachment to silence and then there is akusala citta, no calm. ******* Nina. #104148 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verse 61 was My Conclusion upon contemplation sarahprocter... Hi Chuck, --- On Sun, 3/1/10, charlest wrote: >warm thanks for your response. ... S: and for yours. ... > > > ... snip > > > > > > > > In the Dhammapada verse 61: > > > > > > > > "If, in your course, you don't meet > > > > your equal, your better, > > > > then continue your course, > > > > firmly, > > > > alone. > > > > There's no fellowship with fools." > ... > S: Does this mean that we physically avoid all such "fools"... >C: Imho, if in our mundane, puthujjana mind, we perceive a person as such, yes. >Sarah: ...or does it not mean that we avoid association with the wrong view of such "fools"? >C: Imho, if in our mundane, puthujjana mind, the person we perceive as a "fool"; we should avoid regardless the deficiency. ... S: Yes, I think both meanings can be implied. I just read a summary of the commentary story behind the telling of this verse. Thera Mahakasapa had two young bhikkhus staying with him near Rajagaha. One was very respectful and obedient, but the other caused a lot of trouble, couldn't stand being rebuked and ended up setting fire to the monastery. When the Buddha heard this he said it would have been better for the Thera to have lived alone that with such a companion. ... >Sarah: In other words, surely it's by developing more and more right understanding and other wholesome tendencies, we're less and less 'tainted' by such views. >C: I do not understand your statement. [bummers] ... S: Please ask me (or anyone else) to explain anytime anything seems unclear. It's helpful for many others too if you do this. What I meant was that the more confidence and understanding is developed about what is good and right, the less influenced we are by others' contrary ideas about what is good and right. For a simple example, we don't tell lies and we have confidence that this is right, so even if we have colleagues or family members who suggest that 'white lies are good' or that one should cheat one's company or something, we won't be influenced by such words or examples. ... >Sarah: For example, a sotapanna thinks about a computer just as we do, but without any wrong ideas about it existing as a reality. They continue to hear and read all sorts of wrong ideas, but are not affected by these as there is no more doubt or wavering of confidence about what the Truths are. >C: As I am not a sotapanna, I have no comment on the sotapanna. ... S: Again, I'm just saying that for the one who has eradicated all wrong view, no matter what he hears, no matter what others believe in, his confidence in right view remains unshaken in any circumstance. Even the Budddha had plenty of contact with 'fools', but like water on a lotus leaf, all wrong views and other defilements would not affect him for an instant in an adverse way. Thanks again for the discussion and introducing the verse. Metta Sarah ======== #104149 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How are you celebrating New Year's Eve while keeping Sila? sarahprocter... Dear Chris, A lovely account! I'm glad you have Dhammagiri to visit. --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Christine wrote: >A visiting monk, Ajahn Khemasiri, who is Abbot of the Dhammapala Kloster – located in Kandersteg in Switzerland, gave a 50 minute talk and guided meditation on "Forgiveness" of each other and ourselves. ... S: We know Kandersteg well from all our hiking in Switzerland. We stayed very close to the Dhammapala Kloster one time. A beautiful location. I appreciate the forgiveness of others, but I'm not sure about the forgiveness of ourselves - maybe like the metta to ourselves issue? ... >A very inquisitive possum was jumping from branch to branch high up in the eucalypt trees and wallabies could be heard pounding through the bush. The full moon was high in a cloudless sky - absolutely beautiful. The only small problem was that the temperature at midnight was 23 ºC = 73.4 ºF with between 70 and 80 percent humidity. Everyone was soaked in perspiration - which does nothing for ladies hairstyles and make-up - but who was noticing :-). ... S: Well, maybe the possum, who knows? :-) Very fortunate to have the full moon and cloudless sky. Here in Hong Kong they had a very cloudy sky for the fireworks. As for the moon, what moon? Seldom seen here amongst the lights, pollution, fireworks and clouds.... thanks for sharing, Sarah ======== #104150 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 2:39 am Subject: Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Scott: .... The 'sense of a person having sila' is wrong view. It won't lead anywhere anytime soon. I agree that it feels really good, though. We all love lobha. .... S: Nicely put, I thought... Metta Sarah ======== #104151 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Jon 4 Feb 06 d media clip , during the Bkk discussion, it was said that lobha can arise without ditthi. then was after wrong view was eradicated. It started by Sarah asking about atta sanna then you use the example of the hand. By the way there are two other type of sanna mention, I could not quite hear it, one I think is sukkha sanna and ther other I am not sure. Could you pse tell me, thanks > >Yes, only the developed panna that sees nama as nama and rupa as rupa leads to > the breaking down, and eventual eradication, of wrong view. To my understanding, > however, there will continue to be conceptualising about the rupas that are > seen, heard or otherwise experienced and, except for the anagami and arahant, > attachment to the conceptualised object. I like to rewrite my reply to your above points again. Sorry after reading your email I realise I did not read it carefully enough. Yes with nama and rupa, there is eradication wrong view. Yes, the attachment for an sense pleausre is eradicated at anagami level but we cannot said craving for conceptualised object is fully eradicated as there to craving for existence for material and immaterial. Planes of birth are concepts. Cheers Ken O #104152 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 3:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Ken O wrote: >S: It is the same as attavaadupaadaana, as I understand. >KO: If you put attavaadupaadaana as the same as attanuditthi then it should be the same as sakkaya ditthi. ... S: There are 20 attanudi.t.thi and 20 sakkaaya di.t.thi. Attavaadupaadaana is exactly the same as attanud.t.thi. Attanudi.t.thi arises when there's the idea of something which stays or lasts, when there isn't understanding of each reality arising and falling away. When it's 'me' or someone, then it's sakkaaya di.t.thi .... >.. Again to emphasis, as we equate concepts as reality, we take it as there is self or being in concept. This is quite common especially when we grasp over beautiful concepts. ... S: When we take the computer as 'some thing' whole that lasts, as opposed to rupas arising and falling away, I don't think we have any idea of 'me' or a being in the concept of computer! ... >S: We can think about a car or a person with or without wrong view, with kusala or akusala cittas too. To give an obvious example, when we think about people with metta, there is no wrong view at such moments. ... >KO: Everytime we take a man or car as a mental object and think that these object as reality, that is wrong view. If we think the people is real that is already wrong view, metta would not arise. When we think people as real, the metta we think that arise could be lobha and not metta. When we see people in terms of nama and rupa, then metta would be metta. ... S: Yes, I agree. However even children or those who've never heard about namas and rupas have metta. There is no wrong or right view about realities - they are just kind and friendly at such times. Most the time, there are no views about reality at all. .... >KO: Sorry a person who does not have any ideas of nature of reality means, its really full of wrong views. Wrong view arise with lobha. A dog who is attached to its partner is already wrong view when thinking its partner is real. A child who is attached to his/her toy is also full of wrong view when thinking the toy is real. ... S: I don't think the dog or the small child have any view about whether the partner or toy is real. They just have lobha. Here's the sutta quote I was trying to recall, from MN, 78 "Sama.nama.ndikaa Sutta", translated by Nanamoli & Bodhi: ".....For a young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion 'body', so how should he do an evil action beyond mere wriggling? A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion 'speech,' who how should he utter evil speech beyone mere whining? A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion 'intention', so how should he have evil intentions beyond mere sulking? A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion 'livelihood,' so how should he make his living by evil livelihood,' beyond being suckled at his mother's breast?..." S: No notions of reality, so no wrong view arising. Metta Sarah ========= #104153 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah > >Attanudi.t.thi arises when there's the idea of something which stays or lasts, when there isn't understanding of each reality arising and falling away. When it's 'me' or someone, then it's sakkaaya di.t.thi KO: No the text does not support your point here. I have shown you the text that says that attanuditthi is sakkayaditthi. Also when an idea of something which stay or last should be micca ditthi, taking impermanent as permanent and not attanuditthi. Attanudhitti is taking a self which is a doctrine of self. >S: I don't think the dog or the small child have any view about whether the partner or toy is real. They just have lobha. > >Here's the sutta quote I was trying to recall, from MN, 78 "Sama.nama.ndikaa Sutta", translated by Nanamoli & Bodhi: > >".....For a young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion 'body', so how should he do an evil action beyond mere wriggling? A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion 'speech,' who how should he utter evil speech beyone mere whining? A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion 'intention', so how should he have evil intentions beyond mere sulking? A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion 'livelihood, ' so how should he make his living by evil livelihood,' beyond being suckled at his mother's breast?..." > KO: Can lobha arise without ditthi or conceit? Also the child will cry for nutriment, would it be possible for a child to do that without unplesant bodily feeling or unpleasant mental feeling. And unpleasant mental feeling only arise with dosa. And lobha and dosa must arise with avijja. I have seen documentaries where the tiger shark kill its own siblings inside the mother womb as nourishment for growth. Would an animal killed without dosa? Because there are taints that it why they would manifest even in new born babies as long as there are cittas. KO: As to the sutta - a young infant lying prone does not have intention? Would that be possible one does not have thoughts or ideas? Sure the child has lobha, does that not evil intentions or aksuala? The sutta meant to establish that there is a cause for evil actions/speech/thoughts, and not just because one do not do all these actions, one is able to attain supreme attainment. One must eradicate such causes (lobha, dosa and avijja) before one could attain supreme attainment. KO: Children and animal do not understand reality that does not mean they do not have ditthi, dosa and avijja. Cheers Ken O #104154 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 5:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, --- On Sun, 3/1/10, Ken O wrote: >>S:Attanudi.t. thi arises when there's the idea of something which stays or lasts, when there isn't understanding of each reality arising and falling away. When it's 'me' or someone, then it's sakkaaya di.t.thi >KO: No the text does not support your point here. I have shown you the text that says that attanuditthi is sakkayaditthi. ... S: Yes, I've seen the texts. Yes, attanuditthi is sakkayaditthi, but it's also wider. You haven't told me whether you take the computer for being yourself! ... >Also when an idea of something which stay or last should be micca ditthi, taking impermanent as permanent and not attanuditthi. Attanudhitti is taking a self which is a doctrine of self. ... S: It is because of attanuditthi that the impermanent is taken for permanent, for something. This is why when attanuditthi is eradicated, so is the taking of the impermanent for permanent. ... >S: I don't think the dog or the small child have any view about whether the partner or toy is real. They just have lobha. > >Here's the sutta quote I was trying to recall, from MN, 78 "Sama.nama.ndikaa Sutta", translated by Nanamoli & Bodhi: ... >KO: Can lobha arise without ditthi or conceit? ... S: Yes. .... >Also the child will cry for nutriment, would it be possible for a child to do that without unplesant bodily feeling or unpleasant mental feeling. And unpleasant mental feeling only arise with dosa. And lobha and dosa must arise with avijja. ... S: Yes. Without any wrong view. ... >I have seen documentaries where the tiger shark kill its own siblings inside the mother womb as nourishment for growth. Would an animal killed without dosa? Because there are taints that it why they would manifest even in new born babies as long as there are cittas. ... S: Yes....I'm not sure why you're saying all this - of course there is dosa, pleasant and unpleasant feeling in a baby. We're discussing whether there are any wrong views, wrong ideas about reality involved at such times. I say 'not' and I read the Buddha as saying 'not' as well. .... >KO: As to the sutta - a young infant lying prone does not have intention? Would that be possible one does not have thoughts or ideas? Sure the child has lobha, does that not evil intentions or aksuala? The sutta meant to establish that there is a cause for evil actions/speech/ thoughts, and not just because one do not do all these actions, one is able to attain supreme attainment. One must eradicate such causes (lobha, dosa and avijja) before one could attain supreme attainment. >KO: Children and animal do not understand reality that does not mean they do not have ditthi, dosa and avijja. ... S: Young children and animals don't think or have ideas about realities, so no ditthi, but plenty of lobha, dosa and avijja. Like children buidling sand-castles on the beach for hours - no wrong views, just lots of lobha and ignorance and dosa when someone annoys them or messes up the castle. Signing off for the evening....I expect we'll still be pursuing these topics when we meet in Bkk next month:-) Metta Sarah ======= #104155 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 5:25 am Subject: Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear jonoabb Hi Chuck (104064) > C: Quote: > > "Yes, there are some terms we have been using for so > long that we forget they are not standard use!" > > No thing has changed in ten years, heh? > =============== The terms in question (i.e., that are not standard use) are the English translations of Pali terms from the teachings. Almost all of these will carry a meaning that is materially different from its normal (conventional) one. For example, the English terms "reality" for dhamma "energy/effort" for viriya, "mind" for citta. All these terms have a very particular meaning when used in the context of the teachings. > =============== > Sigh... > =============== Do you have any better ideas? ;-)) One solution I suppose would be to just use the Pali terms. But that would bring sighs from other members ;-)). Jon #104156 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 5:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. jonoabb Hi KenO (104100) > KO: There are eight instances of lobha which only arise with conceit or wrong view. You are saying when lobha is dominate while the other two cetasikas are not. But one of this must arise with lobha. Cannot be without them for worldlings :-) > =============== Yes, whenever there is conceit or wrong view there is lobha. But there can be lobha without either conceit or wrong view. Of the 8 kinds of lobha-mula citta, 4 arise with wrong view. The other 4 *may* arise with conceit, but they may also arise without conceit. > =============== > KO: Pse listen to the discussion on 15 Feb 06 about the cookies. It is something that I like - is said to be attanuditthi and not sakkayaditthi :-) I will discuss about attanuditthi with Sarah in another email. > =============== Yes, I remember the discussion. Very interesting. > =============== > >Yes, only the developed panna that sees nama as nama and rupa as rupa leads to the breaking down, and eventual eradication, of wrong view. To my understanding, however, there will continue to be conceptualising about the rupas that are seen, heard or otherwise experienced and, except for the anagami and arahant, attachment to the conceptualised object. > > > > KO: It should be during the 1st path, the characteristic of nama and rupa is penetrated. that is how doubt and wrong view is completely eradicate. > =============== That's correct. Doubt about the nature of nama and rupa is completely eradicated. However, the sotapanna still conceptualises about what has been seen and heard, and still has clinging and aversion towards those objects (people and things). > =============== Secondly if you say it is only at anagami it should be wrong because in that case anagami still clings to existence in material and immaterial planes as planes are concepts also. > =============== Agreed that the anagami still clings to becoming. But he does not cling to sensuous objects. Jon #104157 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 5:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Hard in training, easy in battle!" jonoabb Hi Alex (104104) > As to the effort. One of the things is that appropriate amount and repetition of right effort is required. Just like with studying. It is not a one shot deal. Quality and quantity count. In the beginning before one has appropriate understanding it is to be expected that not all effort is the right one. So when you can't handle the quality, fulfill the quantity. > =============== J: Again, you are taking the conventional model of effort and applying it to the effort that was spoken of by the Buddha. This tends to lead to a sort of 'shotgun' approach, whereby we think that if sufficient exertion is made in the general direction, some of it will hit the mark (will be kusala) ;-)) > =============== > Also. IMHO right view is as much a statement of value as it is a statement of fact. If the right view doesn't lead to right action, right effort, right liberation, etc, etc - then it isn't "right" effort. > =============== J: In the context of the Noble Eightfold Path, the factor that is Right Effort arises contemporaneously with the other factors you mention. To my understanding, it's not a case of one factor leading to the others. > =============== > Happy New Year, > =============== J: And a happy New Year to you, too! Jon #104158 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 5:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >>KO: Can lobha arise without ditthi or conceit? >... >S: Yes. KO: I have yet come across this for worldings. Lobha must arise with ditthi or conceit. See CMA pg 95 (ii) Greed is found only in 8 types of citta accompany by greed (iii) Wrong view arises in the four types of (greet rooted) citta associated with wrong view. (iv) Conceit is found in the four types of (greed-rooted) citta dissociated with wrong view. S: Young children and animals don't think or have ideas about realities, so no ditthi, but plenty of lobha, dosa and avijja. KO: As I said, one who does not have a practical view of the world, does mean there is no ditthi. The child may take what is impermanent as permanent. He would think his mother would always permanent. When his mother is not around, he will cry because of lobha and because thinking that mother is always there for him, a permanent feature. Cheers Ken O #104159 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 12:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer Problems upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/2/2010 10:34:34 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I've been having major computer trouble. I had to restore the contents of my hard disk, redownload my antivirus software, and more. I'm still having major problems w/AOL software, and at any time I may find myself unable to send or read mail. So please bear with me if I seem to have fallen off the face of the earth. ... S: I was sorry to hear about this - you seem to have had quite a few major computer problems during the year. Do hope all is fixed now and that 2010 is a Happy Computer Year for you! ------------------------------------------------------ Thanks, Sarah. :-) For the moment, the computer is okay - but only after quite a struggle. Fortunately I had saved many (uncontaminated) files on an external drive, which files I was able to restore, but there still was much more to do. Now I'm checking on how to safely reinstall my back-up software so that I can begin backing up anew. I'm hoping that once I format the external drive, I'll be able to reinstall the backup software from the disc that was used for installation of the software and subsequently for restoring data. One thing for sure: My next computer will be a MAC, and no longer a pc!!! (I've had it with Windows-based systems!) I hope 2010 is wonderful year for you and all of us!! (Although there are supposedly no "you" and no "us"and no years! Always good to begin the year, and ain't no such thing as a year either(!!), conversing with *fictions, eh? LOLOL!) ------------------------------------------------------ Metta Sarah ============================= With metta, Howard * I don't actually believe that you and I and "this year" etc are utter fictions in the same way and to the same degree as are selves, souls, and unicorns. However, these are not elementary, separate, self-existent, delineative realities or entities. Precisely, they are cross-temporal complexes of more elementary phenomena, and they are known only through thinking and by mental association of related but disparate phenomena (though it may seem otherwise) and are even more matters of convention than are the underlying phenomena you like to call "realities". ;-) The Aggregates are Void /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #104160 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 10 years on in Samsara....Dhamma sharing. nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 3-jan-2010, om 11:08 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Take Ken H as an example - very tardy when it comes to his Dhamma > diary to Nina ------- N: Ha ha, Ken, that is one for you! But seriously, some time ago i found what you wrote about misery in life very inspiring. Nina. #104161 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 6:24 am Subject: Standard English-Pali Terms was meditation, hatred ,and fear dhammasaro Good friend Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Chuck > > (104064) > > C: Quote: > > > > "Yes, there are some terms we have been using for so > > long that we forget they are not standard use!" > > > > No thing has changed in ten years, heh? > > =============== > > ...snip > > > =============== > > Sigh... > > =============== > > Do you have any better ideas? ;-)) > C: No, just a standard rationale!!! Why not use a respected Pali Buddhist Dictionary such as 1. the "Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines" by Nyanatiloka as I was required. Perhaps, add 2. "English-Pali Dictionary" by A. P. Buddhadatta Mahathera. or, 3. "Pali-English Dictionary" by T. W. Rhys Davids and William Stede. For the Pali interested, encourage to join the Pali yahoo group or purchase booklets such as: 1. "Pali Primer" by Lily de Silva, M. A,, Ph. D. 2. "A Rapid method of learning Pali, Part I" and 3. "A Rapid method of learning Pali, Part II" by Dr. Chamlong Sarapadnuke. FWIW, it was enforced and re-enforced, words mean things. And, if we do not have an agreed common vocabulary, we have chaos!!! > ... snip > Jon > metta (maitri), Chuck #104162 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 6:25 am Subject: Re: On importance of samatha - Part2 scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: Me: "Answer: The one whose duck was able to hit high C at midnight while calculating pi to 432 decimal places, of course. (Note that this had to have been a mallard duck; a drake, not a hen; post- not pre-moult; and fully conversant in seven of the eleven 'magical' languages known to have been spoken on Delta Prime prior to the Second Inclination of the Pteros Rhinos Dynasty - Mach I, not Mach II)." A: "I do not understand your answer. The question is: understanding being equal, who will reach maggaphala faster. Person who has never done samatha, or who is very proficient in the right samatha?" Scott: The 'answer' was totally Ironic, Alex. Any attempt to actually make literal sense of an ironic answer suggests, alas, that such subtle irony was completely lost on the reader, because of which I am now very forlorn. I consider the 'question' to be totally Absurd. And any attempt to seriously answer such a 'question' is useless. In point of fact, I don't consider the 'question' to be a 'question' at all. I read it to be a reiteration of the persistent, convoluted, and nonsensical view that suggests that samatha has some sort of magical properties and that, when used, these charms will propel the user to such speeds and heights of skill that he or she will surely win the race, defeating his or her execrable non-samatha using opponents. What could possibly be the point in wondering about getting somewhere faster in this context? (Hint: This was a Rhetorical Question and therefore there is no need to answer it.) I consider these notions to be untenable. Hopefully this clarifies things for you. Sincerely, Scott. #104163 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 3-jan-2010, om 10:45 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > I am talking about open space, and not rupa as first mode ------- N: The Debates text is more complicated than we would think. We have to know the background, to whom it was directed and why. When thinking of words, like open space, I find that I get mixed up. I like to put my hand in a well, and can I sqeeze what is inside? No. It cannot be touched, but there is something there. We can call it akaasa. It does not know anything, it is ruupa. Nina. #104164 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ashkenn2k Dear Nina The Comy on the debates is very clear about it. It is a concept. Can we touch a concept that generates in the mind? It was meant to dispell the notion that space is unconditional. This space thing is just a mere fact finding only. Just to satisfy my lobha (curiosity) :-). It is not a concrete rupa so not useful for studying of nama and rupa. Cheers Ken O >------- >N: The Debates text is more complicated than we would think. We have >to know the background, to whom it was directed and why. >When thinking of words, like open space, I find that I get mixed up. >I like to put my hand in a well, and can I sqeeze what is inside? No. >It cannot be touched, but there is something there. We can call it >akaasa. It does not know anything, it is ruupa. >Nina. > #104165 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah and Jon Yes both of you are right, lobha can arise without conceit (or those dissociated with wrong view). These are the references: a. pg 340, Expositor The 3rd Class of consciousness arises in one who with joy lets his sense experience evoke greed, who does not [erroneously] regards such notions as a "being", "a person" [as something ultimately true], who goes to look at cockfights, wrestling, boxing, dancing, theatres etc,. or is devoted to listening to pleasant sounds, and so on [for the other esense] b. pg 15, Summary of Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary. When wrong views are not present and one joyfully takes full pleasure in sexual intercourse or strongly desire's wealth or takes another goods with a mind that is naturally sharp, without effort, then the third consciousness arise. c. In XIV, 170 Visud, Aggregates 168. (24) With the third [unprofitable consciousness (24) there should be understood to be associated those given for the first (22), excepting wrong view (xli). But here the difference is that there is inconstant [occurence] of (xliv) pride (conceit) **the inconstant word is also used for cetasikas like envy, avarice and worry Cheers Ken O #104166 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 8:09 am Subject: Re: On importance of samatha - Part2 truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > Me: "Answer: The one whose duck was able to hit high C at midnight while calculating pi to 432 decimal places, of course. (Note that this had to have been a mallard duck; a drake, not a hen; post- not pre-moult; and fully conversant in seven of the eleven 'magical' languages known to have been spoken on Delta Prime prior to the Second Inclination of the Pteros Rhinos Dynasty - Mach I, not Mach II)." > > A: "I do not understand your answer. The question is: understanding being equal, who will reach maggaphala faster. Person who has never done samatha, or who is very proficient in the right samatha?" > > Scott: The 'answer' was totally Ironic, Alex. Any attempt to actually make literal sense of an ironic answer suggests, alas, that such subtle irony was completely lost on the reader, because of which I am now very forlorn. I consider the 'question' to be totally Absurd. And any attempt to seriously answer such a 'question' is useless. > > In point of fact, I don't consider the 'question' to be a 'question' at all. I read it to be a reiteration of the persistent, convoluted, and nonsensical view that suggests that samatha has some sort of magical properties and that, when used, these charms will propel the user to such speeds and heights of skill that he or she will surely win the race, defeating his or her execrable non-samatha using opponents. > > What could possibly be the point in wondering about getting somewhere faster in this context? (Hint: This was a Rhetorical Question and therefore there is no need to answer it.) > > I consider these notions to be untenable. Hopefully this clarifies things for you. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Hello Scott, all, Please do not ridicule samatha or the question. Maybe the question was a good one? :) Jhana IS the path to awakening - MN36 Jhana Is what Buddha awakened to. AN9.42 & SN2.7 Jhana Is Practiced by awakened ones: Dhp 23 Jhana Leads to 4 fruits: From Stream to Arhatship. (DN29) Jhana Is Right Concentration - SN 45.8 Ending of Mental Fermentations depend on Jhana - AN 9.36 Samadhi is proximate condition to "knowledge and vision of things as they really are" - SN12.23 Samadhi -> seeing rise & fall of 5 aggregates (which is wisdom) SN 22.5 Samadhi -> wisdom Samadhi is the path - AN 6.64 Jhana is the only 4 Meditative absorptions thay Buddha praised. -MN108 Jhana goes together with discernment (panna): Dhp 372 Jhana Is a mark of a great discernment, great man - AN4.35 Jhana is the escape from confinement. AN 9.42 Released through Panna (Pannavimutti) = Jhanas 1-9 AN 9.44 7 Parts of Noble 8Fold path are support for Jhana- MN117 Jhana + discernment is a single thing that can lead one to Arhatship - AN 11.17 The Buddha has recomended Jhana for trainees - MN107 It is *impossible* to break 5 lower and 5 upper fetters without Jhana (and insight after it). - MN64 Jhana are 4 of 6 stations of mindfulness (anussatithana) AN 3.322 Udayin sutta iii, 320, VI, iii, 29 (the other 2 are alokasanna & 31 body parts) Thus, verily, monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the no-whither way. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo AN6.64 "Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana*, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." - MN152 With metta, Alex #104167 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 9:12 am Subject: Re: On importance of samatha - Part2 scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "...Maybe the question was a good one? :)" Scott: Nope. But it's good of you to go back to straight-forward, no-questions-asked, repetitive advertising again. ;-) A: "...Jhana IS...Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana*, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." - MN152 Sincerely, Scott. #104168 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 10:48 am Subject: Re: On importance of samatha - Part2 truth_aerator Dear Scott, Nina, Sarah, Jon, all, >, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "...Maybe the question was a good one? :)" > >Scott: Nope. But it's good of you to go back to straight-forward, >no-questions-asked, repetitive advertising again. ;-) I've asked a valid question. If all other things (like panna) being equal, does a person with proper samatha progress faster than a person without samatha development? With metta, Alex #104169 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On importance of samatha - Part2 nilovg Dear Alex, Op 3-jan-2010, om 19:48 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I've asked a valid question. If all other things (like panna) being > equal, does a person with proper samatha progress faster than a > person without samatha development? ------- N: This depends on the papancas of lobha, di.t.thi and conceit which slow down the development. Both the jhaana labhi or the sukkha vipassaka can have these. It all depends on the individual, and it is not possible to measure. ------ Nina. #104170 From: Vince Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 11:33 am Subject: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina, you wrote : > N: Perhaps an example can clarify things. Seeing arises now, and it > arises because of eyesense and visible object or colour. Seeing is > dependent on the ruupas of eyesense and visible object, it could not > arise without them. ok, this point is clear and I don't doubt it. But, Do you understand that before this Seeing which arises now, the Seeing itself was non-existent?. Seeing was non-existent before we have been born?. Seeing will be annihilated after we will die? > N: This helps to understand that a self cannot make > seeing arise at will, seeing is dependent on other factors which > condition its arising. yes, it is not my point. I try to point until where is the author of the explanation. Who is giving places and times among dhammas to understand by using the cause-effect logics. > N: Seeing is in this case the conditioned dhamma, > paccayupanna dhamma, and eyesense and visible object are ruupas that > are paccaya dhammas, conditioning dhammas. > Moreover, seeing is vipaakacitta, a citta that is result, result of a > deed done in the past, past kamma, that is accumulated and carried on > from one citta to the next one, so that its produces result later on. precisely because the past kamma, How this Seeing can be the first Seeing?. Because Seeing was here before now, and before us in the seeing of our fathers, and before them with the fathers of our fathers, other beings, etc... If we agree kamma lacks of a beginning, then we cannot find a "first Seeing" then neither the final causes for the Seeing. How Seeing can arise or fall away in final terms? When we say the Seeing arises because conditions, while these conditions are not present then we cannot say the Seeing is non-existent in a absolute way. And when we close our eyes it doesn't mean the end of Seeing in an absolute way. So I understand it only can mean the end of what is grasped "by me", by the -self. In a final sense the kammic thread of Seeing is not-conceivable or subject to time, because the eyesense it's not mine, not me. Citta it's not mine, not me... Then: It is not a Seeing-object what really is arising or falling away, instead the Seeing itself?. > The Visuddhimagga (XVIII, 34) explains: > And so do mind and matter both > Depend the one upon the other. yes, that's seem to be condition to start the right view. And Visuddhimagga starts in its preface: "it arises below and above repeatedly in connection with such objects as visible things. And it is said to be " Tangle within, without," from the fact of its arising within one's own and others' individualities and what there to appertains, in the organs subjective and objective. Mankind is entangled in such a tangle." from here one can understand the teaching is addressed to individualities, offering what can be grasped for the individual, for the self. So, What's the meaning of "real" when our understanding grasp the object of a paramattha-dhamma?. The arising of panna will be enough to guarantee a final understanding? best wishes, Vince #104171 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 11:45 am Subject: samatha vs no samatha truth_aerator >--- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 3-jan-2010, om 19:48 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > I've asked a valid question. If all other things (like panna) being > > equal, does a person with proper samatha progress faster than a > > person without samatha development? > ------- > N: This depends on the papancas of lobha, di.t.thi and conceit which > slow down the development. Both the jhaana labhi or the sukkha > vipassaka can have these. It all depends on the individual, and it is > not possible to measure. > ------ > Nina. Dear Nina, all, Thank you for your reply. But please tell me, who has a quicker progress sukha vipassaka or person with samatha. Lets say that they have equal amount of wisdom, and other factors. Does possessing samatha (in addition to wisdom) help the progress? With metta, Alex #104172 From: Vince Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 12:12 pm Subject: Re[4]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear sarah you wrote: > S: Yes, like the view on luminosity and so on - I think that what > you point to above are the ideas that were developing at the time > the Kathavatthu was expounded. The Buddha knew this would be the > case and this is the reason he lay down the Mattika (contents) for > the Kathavatthu for this time. I believe there is an idea of atta > behind it all. still I ignore many of these discussion in the Theravada world. What I know comes from some Mahayana stuff. Also in the mahayana world, specially many scholars they believe there is an atta behind those ideas. However I don't think so. I believe an arhant is not a decypher-machine emitting words but teachings arises as a play with objects, so there are many ways to explain, I think. Maybe some of them can be a distortion, I'm not sure. > "And what, brahmin, is the miracle of instruction? There is one who > instructs thus: 'You should think in this way and should not think > in that way! You should attend to this and not to that! You should > give up this and should dwell in the attainment of that!' This is > called the miracle of instruction." I think one sense to interpret this, is when many times becomes more important what we are doing with our thinking instead the exactitude of what we are grasping. > p.s Is there any chance of your returning to Bangkok in February ah, it would be great! :-). Although today I think it is really difficult. My boss has a calendar so detailed as the Visuddhimagga. Maybe at the end of January it can be some change but now I see it difficult :( best wishes, Vince. #104173 From: Vince Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear colette: your wrote: > You have strucken upon the ACTUALITY of NUAMENA and PHANONMENA > which is the entire basis of THE MIND ONLY SCHOOL (aka MADHYAMIKA), > and the regular world. AHHHHHHHHH, but under the MADHYAMIKA RULES & > REGS we run into this problem, the problem of NOT MIND ONLY > GENERATED. We are nunfortunately stuck in an ACEDEMIC WORLD and > these adcedemics require the exact character generation which > satisfies their robotic consciousness. not sure from where you take these conclusions. I'm not an academic neither I follow mind-only school, madhyamika or whatever philosophy. > LET IT GO! > VINCE: WHY IS THE ABHIDHARMA DIFFERENT FROM THE WAY, as you speak > it? The Abhidharma is nothing more than a WAKE UP CALL: the > abhidharma keeps you awake as you traverse this neverending WHEEL OF SAMSARA. also I'm sure of that. I don't mean Abbhidhamma it's different of the Way (Dhamma) but different of MY way. Until today I have not used the Abhidhamma and now I try to fit this. It was the only sense, > NOpe, bad vibes come up. GOTTA GO. ok, Gotta go bad vibes (**What means "NOpe"?) best wishes, Vince. #104174 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 12:48 pm Subject: Re: On importance of samatha - Part2 scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "I've asked a valid question..." Scott: Such an assertion would depend on whether the question has any rigourous grounds. For example: A: "...If all other things (like panna) being equal,..." Scott: What other things? Do you mean other mental factors? Given that pa~n~naa *is* the operative mental factor when it comes to the end result you are racing to 'achieve' the question is invalid when you neutralize pa~n~naa. A: "...does a person with proper samatha..." Scott: What does the above actually refer to? What is 'proper' in this context? What is 'samatha' in this context? A: "...progress faster..." Scott: Such a notion is based entirely on self-view and desire. A: "...than a person without samatha development?" Scott: See above regarding pa~n~naa. I'll leave the rest of this to your other discussants to take up with you should they wish. Sincerely, Scott. #104175 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 2:03 pm Subject: Re: On importance of samatha - Part2 truth_aerator Dear Scott, all, >, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "I've asked a valid question..." > > Scott: Such an assertion would depend on whether the question has >any rigourous grounds. Yes. The suttas. You do remember the quotes that I've shown? Buddha very often talks about samadhi. For example: > > A: "...If all other things (like panna) being equal,..." > > Scott: What other things? In brief: sila and panna. > > A: "...does a person with proper samatha..." > > Scott: What does the above actually refer to? What is 'proper' in >this context? What is 'samatha' in this context? Kusala samatha. Or more precisely samma-samadhi which includes 4 jhanas, which are part of noble 8fold path. > > A: "...progress faster..." > > Scott: Such a notion is based entirely on self-view and desire. Why are you reading Self into anything I write? I speak less about the self than Buddha did. He had no reservations about using required aspects of speech, and neither do I. Please don't overlook the forest by looking at the tree. So, does maggaphala arises earlier when panna has kusala samatha (or samma-samadhi) or to when there isn't preliminary kusala samatha? With metta, Alex #104176 From: sīlānanda Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 8:36 pm Subject: Supreme Anapanasati : Mindfulness of Breathing ... silananda_t For all Dhammafarers, May your body be not stressed, your eyes be not strained and your mind be released from the asava. mahakaruna, silananda *HOW DID THE LORD BUDDHA DWELL? * Bhikkhus, Mindfulness with Breathing (Anapanasati) that one has developed and make much of has great fruit and great benefit. Even I myself, before awakening, when not yet enlightened, while still a Bodhisatva (Buddha to be), lived in this dwelling (way of life) for the most part. When I lived mainly in this dwelling, the body was not stressed, the eyes were not strained, and my mind was released from the asava (corruptions, cankers) through non-attachment. For this reason, should anyone wish "may my body be not stressed, may my eyes be not strained, may my mind be released from the asava through non-attachment," then that person ought to attend carefully in his heart to this Mindfulness with Breathingmeditation. *(Samyutta Nikaya. Samyutta LIV, Sutta 8)* ** ** #104177 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 4:36 pm Subject: Goodness Galore _/\_ :-) bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Compassion is the Good Core of Buddhism! Overcome the angry by friendliness, overcome the wicked by goodness, overcome the miser by generosity, overcome the liar by truth... Dhammapada 223 He who neither punishes, nor makes others punish, He who neither steals, nor makes others steal, who in friendly goodwill shares with all that lives, such kind gentle one meets no enmity anywhere... Itivuttaka 27 Train yourself in doing only what is good, that will last and bring great happiness! Cultivate generosity, a peaceful living, and a mentality of infinite friendliness... Itivuttaka 16 <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104178 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 8:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On importance of samatha - Part2 ptaus1 Hi Alex, > I've asked a valid question. If all other things (like panna) being > equal, does a person with proper samatha progress faster than a > person without samatha development? This is not a direct answer, but in Vsdm XII,1 it says that developing jhanas and mundane abhinnas makes developing insight easier (not sure if this means "faster" though), if I understand this bit properly: "...and when he thus possesses concentration so developed as to have both provided benefits and become more advanced, he will then more easily perfect the development of understanding." Of course, just a bit further ahead in XII,8 it's said how hard it is to master each of the stages of jhana/abhinna in the first place, so it seems the "easier" bit is more likely much slower because one first has to master all the abhinnas. Anyway, I guess there's no sure way to know the answer to your question unless one has the power of knowing others' predispositions and even then it would depend on the particular individual. Or more precisely, the accumulations. In light of Sarah's recent messages like 104133 and 104092, it would indeed seem that jhana (and abhinnas, and everything else short of insight) is the long way around. However, again, I think it's down to accumulations. Some feel that insight is enough, others feel that jhana is needed too. I feel both are fine, even though the second might take longer (and then abhinnas yet even longer, unless you are a "buddha, paccekabuddha, chief disiple, etc" who gain these on attaining arahantship as it says in XII,11). Best wishes pt #104179 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 10:41 pm Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Calm is among the wholesome mental factors arising with each kusala citta. For example, when there is generosity and when there is good moral conduct, there is also calm. At such moments there are no attachment, aversion and ignorance, the citta is pure. The moments of kusala citta, however, are very rare, and soon after they have fallen away akusala cittas arise. Since the moments of calm arising with the kusala cittas are so few, the characteristic of calm may not be noticeable. The aim of tranquil meditation is to develop calm with a meditation subject. Only when there is right understanding of the difference between the moments of akusala citta and of kusala citta can calm be developed. Even before the Buddhas time there were wise people who saw the disadvantages of sense impressions and the clinging to them. They were able to develop calm to a high degree, even to the degree of absorption. Absorption is not what is generally understood as a trance. At the moments of absorption only the meditation subject is experienced and sense impressions such as seeing or hearing do not occur. The citta with absorption is of a plane of consciousness which is higher than the sensuous plane of consciousness, that is, the cittas of our daily life which experience sense objects. At the moments of absorption there is a high degree of calm, one is not infatuated with sense objects and defilements are temporarily subdued. There are different stages of absorption and at each subsequent stage there is a higher degree of calm. However, by absorption defilements cannot be eradicated. After the moments of absorption have fallen away, there are seeing, hearing and the other sense impressions again, and on account of them defilements arise again. Even if one has not accumulated the inclination and skill for the development of a high degree of calm, it is still useful to have some general knowledge about its development. This will help one to eliminate misunderstandings about tranquil meditation and insight meditation. It will help one to see the difference between these two kinds of meditation. ******** Nina. #104180 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 11:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 3-jan-2010, om 20:33 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Do you understand that before this Seeing which arises now, the > Seeing itself was non-existent?. > Seeing was non-existent before we have been born?. > Seeing will be annihilated after we will die? ------- N: Even before this very moment of seeing now, seeing was non-existent. When we were in Cambodia years ago with Kh Sujin, she often repeated: there was nothing, and then there is, and after this moment nothing is to be found. This needs some explanation. Before this moment of seeing there is no seeing, and then it arises because of conditions, and then it falls away completely. She calls this amazing, like a miracle. We take it so much for granted, or we have an idea that there is seeing all the time. --------- > > > N: This helps to understand that a self cannot make > > seeing arise at will, seeing is dependent on other factors which > > condition its arising. > > yes, it is not my point. I try to point until where is the author of > the explanation. Who is giving places and times among dhammas to > understand by using the cause-effect logics. ------- N: The Buddha. Without his teaching we would not know anything. ------- > > > N:....seeing is vipaakacitta, a citta that is result, result of a > > deed done in the past, past kamma, that is accumulated and > carried on > > from one citta to the next one, so that its produces result later > on. > > V: precisely because the past kamma, How this Seeing can be the first > Seeing?. Because Seeing was here before now, and before us in the > seeing of our fathers, and before them with the fathers of our > fathers, other beings, etc... ------ N: There was seeing aeons ago, but it arises and falls away. Then another moment of seeing arises, and this is not the same. It is another citta. Nothing can stay. --------- > > V: If we agree kamma lacks of a beginning, then we cannot find a > "first Seeing" then neither the final causes for the Seeing. > --------- N: Many kinds of kamma were performed in the past, some kusala, some akusala. These produce results in the form of rebirth or during life in the form of sense impressions such as seeing, hearing, etc. Each of such moments are vipaakacittas, results of different kammas, that arise and then fall away immediately. -------- > V: How Seeing can arise or fall away in final terms? > When we say the Seeing arises because conditions, while these > conditions are not present then we cannot say the Seeing is > non-existent in a absolute way. And when we close our eyes it doesn't > mean the end of Seeing in an absolute way. So I understand it only > can mean the end of what is grasped "by me", by the -self. ------ N: You are right, when the conditions for seeing are not present it does not arise. It is non-existent. Perhaps this becomes clearer when you understand that seeing is just one moment of citta. It arises within a process of cittas that experience visible object but perform different functions. The citta preceding seeing adverts to visible object but it does not see. It experiences in a way visible object, but it does not see, it merely adverts to visible object. I think it is helpful to learn about different processes of cittas experiencing objects through the sense-door and through the mind- door. Things will become clearer in that way. You can consult my Abhidhamma in Daily Life for more details. --------- > > V: In a final sense the kammic thread of Seeing is not-conceivable or > subject to time, because the eyesense it's not mine, not me. Citta > it's not mine, not me... > Then: It is not a Seeing-object what really is arising or falling > away, instead the Seeing itself? ------ N: Visible object or colour arises and falls away and also seeing itself arises and falls away. It is succeded by receiving- consciousness arising in the same sense-door process that receives visible object. It does not see, but it performs its own function while it experiences visible object that has not fallen away yet. Ruupa lasts longer then citta, and that is why a process or series of cittas can experience visible object that has not fallen away yet. ---------- > > V: So, What's the meaning of "real" when our understanding grasp the > object of a paramattha-dhamma?. The arising of panna will be enough > to guarantee a final understanding? ------- N: Pa~n~naa has to be developed, from intellectual understanding, stemming from listening and considering to direct understanding, stage by stage. A paramattha dhamma is real. But it takes time to really understand it. Seeing is real, and it can be investigated now at this moment. Visible object is real and it can be investigated now at this moment. Nina. #104181 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 4, 2010 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] samatha vs no samatha nilovg Dear Alex, Op 3-jan-2010, om 20:45 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > But please tell me, who has a quicker progress sukha vipassaka or > person with samatha. Lets say that they have equal amount of > wisdom, and other factors. > Does possessing samatha (in addition to wisdom) help the progress? ------- N: The Buddha praised those who had developed jhaana and insight to the stage of enlightenment, no doubt. But as pt. explained it is hard to measure beings faculties. There are so many factors to be considered. The result of jhaana is rebirth in a brahma plane and as you know the lifespan there is unmeasurably long. Nina. #104182 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 4, 2010 5:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas ashkenn2k Dear Vince >> Do you understand that before this Seeing which arises now, the >> Seeing itself was non-existent? . >> Seeing was non-existent before we have been born?. >> Seeing will be annihilated after we will die? >------- >N: Even before this very moment of seeing now, seeing was non-existent. >When we were in Cambodia years ago with Kh Sujin, she often repeated: >there was nothing, and then there is, and after this moment nothing >is to be found. This needs some explanation. Before this moment of >seeing there is no seeing, and then it arises because of conditions, >and then it falls away completely. She calls this amazing, like a >miracle. We take it so much for granted, or we have an idea that >there is seeing all the time. >--------- KO: I like to say more on nothing and something. There was nothing is refering to bhavanga cittas as before one could experience any objects in the door ways, there must be bhavanga cittas. After each seeing process there are bhavanga cittas in between, before the mind process cittas. Bhavanga cittas do not experience a present object. >> V: How Seeing can arise or fall away in final terms? >> When we say the Seeing arises because conditions, while these >> conditions are not present then we cannot say the Seeing is >> non-existent in a absolute way. And when we close our eyes it doesn't >> mean the end of Seeing in an absolute way. So I understand it only >> can mean the end of what is grasped "by me", by the -self. >------ KO: Seeing is non -existence when seeing does not arise. Like when you are sleeping, Yes when we close our eye, there is no seeing in absolute way. The end of what is grasped by me by the self could only be possible when panna arise to understand that there is no self in seeing. Seeing depends on conditions to arise and not a self to arise. If there is no conditon to arise, seeing does not arise in any way. Hence when we close our eyes, if we could control self, then we should be able to see with our eyes closed. But it does not happen, because seeing depends on conditions and not a self. >---------- >> >> V: So, What's the meaning of "real" when our understanding grasp the >> object of a paramattha-dhamma? . The arising of panna will be enough >> to guarantee a final understanding? >------- KO: Real means the objects has characteristic that could be experienced. Feeling is real as we could feel pleasant or unpleasant feeings. Yes panna is enough. Because only with the arisen of panna, then whatever actions/thinking/speech/mindfulness/concentration/effort are also right. Cheers Ken O #104183 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 4, 2010 5:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding ashkenn2k Dear Alex KO: Honestly, I find you fascinating. KO: In your message titled "4 factors for stream entry & role of samatha", you start out as "So even "mere" samatha practice IS very beneficial for dealing with wrong views. The more samatha, the less lobha. The less lobha, the less wrong views" KO: Then you said "Buddha actually instructing you person to person, long samatha training is not needed. Buddha's personal appearance can give a calming effect that no translated sutta can". If your claim that is true, then how come when some people like Devaddatta cannot see calm in Buddha appearance. And if my memory does not fail me, I remember I read somewhere that Devadatta is a very accomplished jhana practioner and has magical powers before falling away from jhanas. KO: How come people like Devadatta did not have less dosa. Because it is panna that helps to worn away lobha and not samatha. Even you are a master of jhanas, you still need panna to liberate. Because it is panna that understand the characteristics of lobha, dosa and avijja and not jhanas or samatha. >Then you apply that knowledge (of the mind and mental processes) to other experiences. Example: A bottle filled with salt or sugar that is diffused in it. With one taste and knowledge of certain laws you can know how all water in that bottle tastes like. When you taste a bit of ocean, you can be reasonably certain that all ocean tastes like that (assuming that nothing else is added to it). So in this way samatha is very important for direct experience that may not be directly seen otherwise. I mean all, even non-Buddhists can see impermanence (ebb and flow of water. Flowers growing, waning and dying. sounds appearing and disappearing) . Yet these facts don't make one Enlightened. Maybe the things perceived in daily life, or in 6 senses taken together are too coarse. Putting 100% attention to one sense door (such as the mind) may reveal much more previously unseen detail than putting 16.7% (100/6) attention to the mind. KO: You mean when you see a visible object now, there is no seeing? When panna arise with seeing, there is direct seeing. That is understand seeing as it is. It arises with a cause and it is not self. There is no doubt and no wrong view during this direct seeing . What is important is panna arise with sense doors and not just attention on one sense door. What is impt about attention? > >2nd) Samatha pacifies hindrances (such as lust or hatred), and the deeper/longer the Samatha the more hindrances are temporary pacified. Thus without hindrances, vipassana can proceed much better. Considering the amount of hindrances we have today, this is an important point. KO: When panna arise, there is no more hindrances. When panna arise, that is vipassana. So do you prefer panna or samatha to arise? Again must stress this to you, panna arise when there is understanding of nama and rupa. or a simply put "just seeing" :-) Cheers Ken O #104184 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 4, 2010 6:06 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 11 ashkenn2k Dear all Questioner: All things which are desirable. S.: Lobha likes everything, including concepts. The world is full of concepts. We cannot stop liking paramattha dhammas as well as paattis. Whenever we like something we do not merely like a paramattha dhamma, we also like a concept. When we, for example, like a particular belt we like the colour which appears through the eyes. Q.: We like also its trademark. S.: We like everything. When we say that we like colours, what are these colours? The colours of eyebrows, eyes, nose, or mouth. If there were no colours appearing how could there be eyebrows, eyes, nose, or mouth? There could not be. However, when we see colours such as red, green, grey, blue, or white we should know that colour is only the reality which appears through the eyes. Nevertheless, we like the colours of eyes, nose, and mouth, thus, we like concepts. Paramattha dhammas are real. However, when we like something we like both the paramattha dhamma which appears and the concept which is formed up on account of that paramattha dhamma. (to be continued) Ken O #104185 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 4, 2010 7:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding truth_aerator Hello KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > KO: Honestly, I find you fascinating. > > KO: In your message titled "4 factors for stream entry & role of samatha", you start out as "So even "mere" samatha practice IS very beneficial for dealing with wrong views. The more samatha, the less lobha. The less lobha, the less wrong views" > Correct. Samatha tranquilizes lobha, and all views happen only in lobha cittas. > KO: Then you said "Buddha actually instructing you person to person, long samatha training is not needed. Buddha's personal appearance can give a calming effect that no translated sutta can". If your claim that is true, then how come when some people like Devaddatta cannot see calm in Buddha appearance. And if my memory does not fail me, I remember I read somewhere that Devadatta is a very accomplished jhana practioner and has magical powers before falling away from jhanas. > What I wanted to say in that paragraph is that some people without preliminary samatha training, fulfilled samatha when they've met the Buddha. So they have accomplished enough of it through Buddha's direct and personal guidance. So that took place instead of formal samatha meditation. > KO: How come people like Devadatta did not have less dosa. He had too much defilements (perhaps kamma vipakas as well) when he was with Buddha. Never the less, Devadatta is said to eventually become a private Buddha (within one aeon). Look, how many of people will become private Buddhas? With metta, Alex #104186 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 4, 2010 7:48 am Subject: samatha and Buddha Metteyya truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 3-jan-2010, om 20:45 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > But please tell me, who has a quicker progress sukha vipassaka or > > person with samatha. Lets say that they have equal amount of > > wisdom, and other factors. > > Does possessing samatha (in addition to wisdom) help the progress? > ------- > N: The Buddha praised those who had developed jhaana and insight to > the stage of enlightenment, no doubt. But as pt. explained it is hard > to measure beings faculties. There are so many factors to be considered. > The result of jhaana is rebirth in a brahma plane and as you know the > lifespan there is unmeasurably long. > > Nina. One of the advantages of Jhana (for those who don't believe in their own awakening prior to meeting Buddha Metteyya) is that by being reborn in Brahma plane you will be able to meet the future Buddha in your next life. Also those who have not yet become aryans, but have attained Jhana and didn't commit grave kamma, will be reborn in Brahma Loka rather than risk being reborn in human or worser planes. Even if a non-aryan is born in human plane (a good destination) it may be possible to do bad deeds and then be reborn in woeful planes and miss the opportunity to meet Buddha Metteyya. So Jhana is a very important thing to cultivate. With metta, Alex #104187 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 4, 2010 6:12 am Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 9 ashkenn2k Hi all Restart form this sentence again as it is shorten on the earlier email Understanding has to be developed for an endlessly long time. Some people dislike it that sati and paññå develop only very gradually, but there is no other way. If someone is impatient and tries to combine different ways of practice in order to hasten the development of paññå, he makes his life very complicated. Q. : What is the difference between the practice which is natural and the practice which is unnatural? S. : At this moment you are sitting in a natural way and you may be aware of realities which appear, such as softness or hardness, presenting themselves through the bodysense, or visible object appearing through the eyesense. All these dhammas appear naturally. However, someone’s practice is unnatural if he believes, while he develops satipaììhåna, that he should sit crosslegged, in the lotus position, and that he should concentrate on specific realities. There is desire when a person selects realities which have not arisen yet as objects of awareness. He neglects to be aware of realities which appear already, such as seeing, hearing, visible object, sound, odour, flavour, cold, heat, softness or hardness. Even if there is only a slight amount of wrong understanding, it conditions clinging and this hides the truth. In that case paññå cannot arise and know the dhammas appearing at that moment. People who develop satipaììhåna should know precisely the difference between the moment of forgetfulness, when there is no sati, and the moment when there is sati. Otherwise satipaììhåna cannot be developed. If one is usually forgetful one is bound to be forgetful again. Someone may wish to select an object in order to concentrate on it, but this is not the way to develop satipaììhåna. We should have right understanding of the moment when there is forgetfulness, no sati, that is, when we do not know the characteristics of realities appearing in daily life, such as seeing or hearing. When there is sati, one can consider, study and understand the dhammas appearing through the six doors. When someone selects a particular object in order to focus on it, he will not know that sati is non-self. When there is sati it can be aware of realities which naturally appear. When odour appears there can be awareness of odour which presents itself through the nose. It can be known as only a type of reality which arises, which appears and then disappears. Or the nåma which experiences odour can be understood as only a type of reality which presents itself. After it has experienced odour, it falls away. It is not a being, a person or self. to be continued Ken O #104188 From: Vince Date: Mon Jan 4, 2010 2:23 pm Subject: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina and Ken O: thanks for your comments. They are quite clear in order to understand the arising of Seeing in us. However, it is not my point!! :-) Take an example of something happening NOW: - for person A there is not seeing now. - for person B there is seeing now. then: - person A told us that there is not seeing. Seeing will arise by conditions but now it's non-existent. Do you think it is real and truth while at same time there is Seeing for the person B?. How we can understand this claim of person A? Vince. #104189 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jan 4, 2010 3:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verse 61 was My Conclusion upon contemplation kenhowardau Hi Sarah and Nina (and Chuck), Thanks for your messages, and apologies for my tardiness, I will definitely post some replies soon. Meanwhile, I'd like to return to a favourite topic, 'Did the Buddha teach a conventional Dhamma as well as an ultimate one?' (groans) :-) --------- S: > > > > > > > > In the Dhammapada verse 61: > > > > > > > > "If, in your course, you don't meet > > > > your equal, your better, > > > > then continue your course, > > > > firmly, > > > > alone. > > > > There's no fellowship with fools." > ... > S: Does this mean that we physically avoid all such "fools"... >C: Imho, if in our mundane, puthujjana mind, we perceive a person as such, yes. >Sarah: ...or does it not mean that we avoid association with the wrong view of such "fools"? >C: Imho, if in our mundane, puthujjana mind, the person we perceive as a "fool"; we should avoid regardless the deficiency. ... S: Yes, I think both meanings can be implied. --------- I like the meaning that depicts citta and cetasikas avoiding the company of wrong views. Sure, the other meaning can also be applied, but is it part of the Dhamma? Conventionally speaking, there are times when fools should be avoided and times when fools should be tolerated and helped. So where is the cut-off point? We can't possibly know because we can't know another person's citta. So the conventional way of knowing is not the sort of thing a Buddha would concern himself with. -------------- S: > I just read a summary of the commentary story behind the telling of this verse. Thera Mahakasapa had two young bhikkhus staying with him near Rajagaha. One was very respectful and obedient, but the other caused a lot of trouble, couldn't stand being rebuked and ended up setting fire to the monastery. When the Buddha heard this he said it would have been better for the Thera to have lived alone that with such a companion. -------------- The Buddha said in the Satipatthana Sutta that a monk who was walking knew he was walking - but not in the same way that an ordinary person or an animal would know. Doesn't the same principle apply here? Even dogs and jackals can avoid unsuitable companions, but only a Buddhist disciple can avoid wrong views. ------------------ >S: >In other words, surely it's by developing more and more right understanding and other wholesome tendencies, we're less and less 'tainted' by such views. >C: I do not understand your statement. [bummers] ... S: Please ask me (or anyone else) to explain anytime anything seems unclear. It's helpful for many others too if you do this. What I meant was that the more confidence and understanding is developed about what is good and right, the less influenced we are by others' contrary ideas about what is good and right. For a simple example, we don't tell lies and we have confidence that this is right, so even if we have colleagues or family members who suggest that 'white lies are good' or that one should cheat one's company or something, we won't be influenced by such words or examples. ---------- As usual, Sarah says it much better than I ever could. And so the only point I am trying to stress is that, when there is right understanding, there are no conventional concerns about fools and the avoidance of fools. There are only dhammas. I suspect that anyone who insists there is a conventional Dhamma - as well as an ultimate one - may be missing this point. Ken H S: > Even the Buddha had plenty of contact with 'fools', but like water on a lotus leaf, all wrong views and other defilements would not affect him for an instant in an adverse way. > #104190 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jan 4, 2010 7:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello KenO, all, > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > > Dear Alex > > > > KO: Honestly, I find you fascinating. > > > > KO: In your message titled "4 factors for stream entry & role of samatha", you start out as "So even "mere" samatha practice IS very beneficial for dealing with wrong views. The more samatha, the less lobha. The less lobha, the less wrong views" > > > > Correct. Samatha tranquilizes lobha, and all views happen only in lobha cittas. > > __ Dear Alex Lobha and wrongview never arise during deep sleep either. robert #104191 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 4, 2010 7:46 pm Subject: importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding truth_aerator Dear RobertK2, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: #104190 > > > __ > Dear Alex > Lobha and wrongview never arise during deep sleep either. > robert Deep sleep is not the path to awakening.(MN36) Nor is it something that was praised by the Buddha. "he enters & remains in the [1st and up to fourth jhana]: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.066.than.html With metta, Alex #104192 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 4, 2010 8:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding ashkenn2k Dear Alex Sorry I could not further discuss with you on samatha because you believe it is samatha that eradicate defilements and not panna. thanks Ken O #104193 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 4, 2010 8:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas ashkenn2k Dear Vince Citta can only arise one at a time. When there is seeing, there is no hearing etc. There is no existence of seeing when there is hearing. If there is no Seeing at A got nothing to do with seeing at B. They are two different persons, two different namas and rupas. When person A closes his eyes, could he see? So there is no seeing at that moment, it is not existence at all. IMHO, kamma which is an unviersal cetasikas, is the condition for the arising of seeing cittas, hearing etc. Even when the seeing has ceased at Person A in moments ago, it would still arise in this present moment or future moment when there is arising of seeing cittas and visible object as kamma is still operative. Just like we will go through the cycle of birth as long as kamma is still operative. Cheers Ken O > > Dear Nina and Ken O: > > thanks for your comments. They are quite clear in order to understand > the arising of Seeing in us. However, it is not my point!! :-) > > Take an example of something happening NOW: > > - for person A there is not seeing now. > - for person B there is seeing now. > > then: > - person A told us that there is not seeing. Seeing will arise by > conditions but now it's non-existent. > > Do you think it is real and truth while at same time there is Seeing > for the person B?. > > How we can understand this claim of person A? > > > Vince. > > > #104194 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jan 4, 2010 4:40 pm Subject: Questions and Answers... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Doubt is overcome by asking those who Know! The brahmin M agandiya once asked the Buddha some subtle questions: Question: How does quarrels and disputes arise? Answer: From what is liked and beloved arise quarrels and disputes. Question: How does these likes, longings and hopes emerge? Answer: Likes, longings and hopes all have desire as their origin. Question: How does this desire come into being? Answer: Desire arises depending on pleasure and pain. Question: How does pleasure and pain then appear? Answer: Pleasure and pain arises depending on contact . Question: How does this event of contact happen? Answer: Contact arises dependent upon name and form . Question: How does such sensed contact completely cease? Answer: When form has disappeared, contacts cannot make contact.... Question: In which mental state does all forms of form disappear? Answer: In neither-perception-nor-non-perception does all form disappear! Question: Is this state the supreme mental purity? Answer: The state of quenching without remaining clinging is the supreme! The recluse does neither dispute that, nor does he renew any existence... Sutta-Nipata 862-877 Edited excerpt. <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104195 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 4-jan-2010, om 23:23 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Take an example of something happening NOW: > > - for person A there is not seeing now. > - for person B there is seeing now. > > then: > - person A told us that there is not seeing. Seeing will arise by > conditions but now it's non-existent. > > Do you think it is real and truth while at same time there is Seeing > for the person B?. > > How we can understand this claim of person A? ------- N: Perhaps I did not get your point. The Buddha taught that seeing is anatta and through the development of understanding the truth can be known very, very gradually. We have to investigate what seeing is, not the seeing of someone else, this is of no interest. How could we know about someone else's cittas. Understanding can be developed only of seeing arising in oneself. Nina. #104196 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 2:19 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, For tranquil meditation it is essential to have a keen understanding of the characteristic of calm and of the way to develop calm with a suitable meditation subject. The Path of Purity (Chapters IV-XII) describes forty meditation subjects which can condition calm. Among the meditation subjects are disks (kasinas), recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the enlightened disciples, meditations on corpses, mindfulness of death, loving- kindness, mindfulness of breathing. A meditation subject does not necessarily bring about calm. Only when there is right understanding of calm and the way to develop it, calm can grow. Moreover, it depends on a persons inclinations which meditation subject is suitable for him as a means to develop calm. It is generally believed that calm is developed by means of concentration. It should be known, however, that there can be right concentration and wrong concentration. Concentration is a mental factor which accompanies each citta. As I explained before, there is one citta arising at a time, but each citta is accompanied by several mental factors which each perform their own function while they assist the citta in experiencing an object. Each citta can experience only one object and it is concentration or one-pointedness which has the function of focusing on that object. Thus, concentration can be kusala, akusala or neither kusala nor akusala. When concentration accompanies akusala citta it is wrong concentration. If one tries very hard to concentrate there may be attachment to ones practice, or there may be aversion because of tiredness, and at such moments there is no calm. If there is right understanding of calm and of the way to develop it, there is also right concentration without there being the need to try to concentrate. It is right understanding which has to be emphasized, not concentration. ***** Nina. #104197 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 3:17 am Subject: Re: Sukha vs. Somanassa was Aryans do not feel pleasant mental feelings? sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, I'm not sure if anyone replied to the following on sukha and somanassa: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > C: Question: Sukha and Somanassa are not synonymous? .... S: When feelings are classified as fivefold, to include sukha and somanassa, they are not synonymous. Sukha here refers to the pleasant feeling accompanying bodily consciousness (vipaka citta). Somanassa refers to the pleasant feeling accompanying other kinds of consciousness, such as the pleasant feeling which may arise with attachment. .... > > Discussion from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary: > > Sukha: pleasant, happy; happiness, pleasure, joy, bliss. It is one of the three feelings (s. vedana) and may be either bodily or mental... ... S: We need to be clear that ALL feelings, including sukha, are always nama (mental) as opposed to rupa (physical). What is meant here is that in the fivefold classification of feelings, sukha (or dukkha) arises with the body consciousness which experiences tangible objects. When there is a threefold classification (sukha, dukkha, upekkha), then all pleasant feelings ('bodily' and 'mental') are included in sukha vedana. .... > Somanassa: lit. 'glad-mind-ness' (su+manas+ya) gladness, joy, identical with 'mentally agreeable feeling' (cetasika sukha vedana),... > > It appears sukha can be bodily or mental where as somanassa is mental only. > > Is this correct? .... S: Yes, somanassa always refers to mental pleasant feeling which accompanies other kinds of consciousness other than bodily consciousness. As I say, people get confused by the word 'bodily' - all kinds of vedana are nama, not rupa. Please let me know if this isn't clear and ignore it if it was clarified before. Good points to raise. Metta Sarah ======= > Warm thanks for your help. > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > > > > ... snip > #104198 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 3:37 am Subject: Re: Sukha vs. Somanassa was Aryans do not feel pleasant mental feelings? dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: #104197 > C: You are pointing out what I was trying to point to another member. Words mean things!!! One just can not make up personal definitions to appear as an adroit elitist!!! peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104199 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 3:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Dear pt, #103740 on concepts as conditions... a deep topic and good qus... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > S: Let's be clear that there can never be a concept without the experiencing of it. So when we read about dhammas, it may be a condition for wise reflection later. The concepts about dhammas on their own don't condition anything. There has to be the hearing and thinking about those concepts in order for them to condition wise attention. > > pt: Okay, but hearing and thinking are still in essence operations with concepts, no? So, by that it would still mean that concepts themselves are one of the conditions for un/wise reflection, no? > > Further, if a concept can be object of citta, then would it not also qualify for exerting force as object condition as well? .... S: Yes, by way of being object only, arammana paccaya. And for the first part, yes, concepts are conditions for un/wise reflection because they have been marked and remembered by sanna. Further reflection of these marked concepts will be un/wise reflection. .... > Further on the topic: > > 1. A mind-door process that is not the immediate one after the sense-door process, has a concept as the object (be it color, shape, or smth else). Now, as you and Nina said to Alex recently, sanna coordinates all the cetasikas during the 10 cittas of the mind-door process, and is directed at (occupied with) the object of citta (concept). If that is so, then where did the concept "come from" in the first place? ... (Sanna just marks and remembers, it doesn't coordinate.) It is the nature of sanna to thus mark and remember, it is conditioned by pakatuupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition) to arise, recalling particular concepts from the past, even aeons ago. The concepts don't "come from" anywhere. They are just concepts, ideas, thought about. If sanna now recognises the sound as "car", the car doesn't exist, doesn't come from anyhwere. Sound is heard and sanna remembers and marks the sounds and the thinking cittas think aobut it. ... > Previously I thought that concepts are brought about by sanna, but I'm not sure anymore this is very accurate description. ... S: Rather than "brought about", I'd just say recalled or marked or remembered. They never exist - just ideas. ... >I.e. it more seems that a certain "way" that cittas and cetasikas come together equals to a certain (illusory) "concept", like the shape of a square for example. I guess what I'm trying to say is that sanna coordinates cetasikas in a certain manner, and that particular manner corresponds to a certain "concept". Is this anywhere near correct? ... S: We can't equate the coming together of cittas and cetasikas with concepts in anyway, otherwise we mix up realities and concepts as other nameless Schools of Thought do! Cittas and cetasikas come together to experience an object, whether that be a nama, a rupa or a concept. ... > > 2. Regarding insight: > > - When panna arises in the first mind-door process that follows the sense-door process, the object of panna is the paramattha dhamma (rupa) that has just fallen away. Okay. ... S: Okay, (in at least the first mind-door process). ... > - But if panna arises in one of the consequent mind-door processes, it's directed towards what? I.e. the object of citta at that moment is a concept, so panna would also be directed at a concept? That seems weird. ... S: Rather than 'directed towards', let's just say that the panna arising with those later javana cittas experiences the same object as the citta, in this case a concept. For example, at moments of pariyatti or samatha bhavana, panna arises and experiences the concept involved rightly. ... > > - Or would there inevitably have to follow another mind-door process, which will now have the previous citta (paramattha dhamma) as the object and panna will know that last citta's object was a concept. So now the object of the current citta is a paramttha dhamma (last citta). Right? ... S: If it's a paramattha dhamma as you describe, then it's not a concept:). ... > > 3. There are several levels of panna: > First, I take it is the conceptual understanding. > Second, understanding of what's kusala and what's akusala. > Third, the actual stages of insight beginning with being able to tell apart the sense-door process and mind-door process. At which point out of these three can be said that citta arises with amoha as the third root? Thanks. ... S: Amoha is panna. It arises with all kinds and levels of understanding. There are different kinds and levels of panna. Like now, if there's wise reflection, panna is arising with the cittas with the concepts of dhammas as objects. In between, there are moments of seeing and hearing and perhaps cittas with lobha. There may also be moments of awareness of any reality, such as the lobha, the seeing, the visible object, the thinking or the hardness appearing now. Happy to pursue at my snail-pace:-) Metta Sarah =======