#104200 From: "Dhammadipa" Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 3:39 am Subject: 'dhamma' in Theravada abhidhamma and Nagarjuna dhdipa according to Nagarjuna everything is empty as everything is dependently originated. The idea of Nibbana is there because there is the concept called Samsara. so when one realizes emptiness there is no samsara and no nibbana. And as everything is sunya (empty) there can not be a thing called svabhava or intrinsic nature for Nagarjuna as everything is dependently originated. In Theravada so called a man is also dependently originated or combination of five aggregates. but one thing I find difficult to understand does Theravada says that so called Dhamma which is the ultimate once something is analyzed is there as permanent???? How can dharma be justifiable from Nagarjuna sunyata point of view. #104201 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 7:58 am Subject: Re: 'dhamma' in Theravada abhidhamma and Nagarjuna truth_aerator Hello Dhammadipa, and all >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammadipa" wrote: #104200 > As I understand it, Theravada and other early schools refute the self existence of the whole but affirm the existence of the parts. As I understand it, Mahayana denies the ultimate self-existence of the parts themselves as well. Perhaps Nagarjuna wanted to fix the tendency to regard the parts (paramattha dhammas) as little wholes themselves. With metta, Alex #104202 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, Sorry if I was not clear before: Panna does the breakthrough and is the most important factor. However it can use the data and circumstances provide through the help of samatha. Samatha clears the view, and panna actually sees and extirpates the defilements. Please don't take my posts as either or. Either samatha or panna. Both do their respective functions and both rely on each other. The question is about: a) the minimum requirement of samatha for stream and arhatship. b) the required amount of samatha FOR US. With metta, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > Sorry I could not further discuss with you on samatha because you believe it is samatha that eradicate defilements and not panna. > > thanks > Ken O #104203 From: Vince Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 8:28 am Subject: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: Perhaps I did not get your point. The Buddha taught that seeing is > anatta and through the development of understanding the truth can be > known very, very gradually. We have to investigate what seeing is, > not the seeing of someone else, this is of no interest. How could we > know about someone else's cittas. Understanding can be developed only > of seeing arising in oneself. yes Nina, I fear you did not get my point although it is not your fault because I'm not able to explain better. In the Milindapanha there is this description: "In the Blessed One's City of Dhamma the encircling walls are morality, the moats are conscience, the ramparts over the city gates are knowledge, the watch-towers are energy, the pillars are faith, the door-keepers are mindfulness, the cross roads are the Suttantas, the places where three or four roads meet is the Abhidhamma, the law-court is the Vinaya, the streetway is the foundations of mindfulness." so just I was trying to understand this cross-road. On my side now it's enough of asking about the abhidhamma focus. From now I will try to learn about abhidhamma itself. best wishes, Vince #104204 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 11:40 am Subject: Difference between Citta and cetasika? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, What is the difference between citta rooted in greed and lobha cetasika? I've read that: "Citta, ceta, cittuppada, nama, mana, are all used as synonymous terms in Abhidhamma. " . http://abhidhamonline.org/Chapter1-9/ch10citta/chap01.htm Well what sutta calls "nama" includes "Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html Since citta & nama are synonyms does this mean that citta and cetasika in Abhidhamma are synonyms? If so, why distinguish them? Why not just use nama term (or something like that)? Cetasika is: (i) that which arises together with consciousness, (ii) that which perishes together with it, (iii) that which has an identical object with it, (iv) that which has a common basis with it. http://www.abhidhamonline.org/Chapter1-9/ch21cetasika.files/ch21cetasika.htm Sounds fairly similar and almost indistinguishable from citta. If cetasika has the same function as citta, then it is identical. With metta, Alex #104205 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Good, but do go slowly, little by little. You could take a few sentences and then discuss. Nina. Op 5-jan-2010, om 17:28 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > now I will try to learn about abhidhamma itself. #104206 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 12:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Difference between Citta and cetasika? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 1/5/2010 11:43:19 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Nina, all, What is the difference between citta rooted in greed and lobha cetasika? I've read that: "Citta, ceta, cittuppada, nama, mana, are all used as synonymous terms in Abhidhamma. " . http://abhidhamonline.org/Chapter1-9/ch10citta/chap01.htm Well what sutta calls "nama" includes "Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html Since citta & nama are synonyms does this mean that citta and cetasika in Abhidhamma are synonyms? If so, why distinguish them? Why not just use nama term (or something like that)? Cetasika is: (i) that which arises together with consciousness, (ii) that which perishes together with it, (iii) that which has an identical object with it, (iv) that which has a common basis with it. http://www.abhidhamonline.org/Chapter1-9/ch21cetasika.files/ch21cetasika.htm Sounds fairly similar and almost indistinguishable from citta. If cetasika has the same function as citta, then it is identical. With metta, Alex ===================================== Not having seen a reply yet from Nina, I'll try my hand at one: In Abhidhammic terminlogy, 'citta' and 'nama' are not synonymous. A citta is an act of knowing an object. Namas are any mental operations, with consciousness being merely the most fundamental. Liking, disliking, understanding, fearing - these are also namas, all depending, of course, on citta. Lobha is the activity of desiring an object. Citta is the mere knowing of the object. An object can be known greedily or not. The greediness, when it occurs, *accompanies* citta. It is concomitant to citta. So, the citta rooted in lobha is consciousness accompanied by greed, but it is not the accompanying greed. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104207 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 6:27 pm Subject: Re: 'dhamma' in Theravada abhidhamma and Nagarjuna chewsadhu Dear Dhammadipa, and all, Here is the talk on Sunyata by Sayadaw U Nandamalabhivamsa in Singapore. I think it helps everyone to understand more on the topic Sunyata. http://cid-191c707d873e5f29.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/.Public/19Dec09-Concept-\ of-Sunyata.mp3 May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Dhammadipa, and all > > >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammadipa" wrote: > > > > according to Nagarjuna everything is empty as everything is dependently originated. The idea of Nibbana is there because there is the concept called Samsara. so when one realizes emptiness there is no samsara and no nibbana. And as everything is sunya (empty) there can not be a thing called svabhava or intrinsic nature for Nagarjuna as everything is dependently originated. In Theravada so called a man is also dependently originated or combination of five aggregates. but one thing I find difficult to understand does Theravada says that so called Dhamma which is the ultimate once something is analyzed is there as permanent???? How can dharma be justifiable from Nagarjuna sunyata point of view. > > > > > As I understand it, Theravada and other early schools refute the self existence of the whole but affirm the existence of the parts. > > As I understand it, Mahayana denies the ultimate self-existence of the parts themselves as well. Perhaps Nagarjuna wanted to fix the tendency to regard the parts (paramattha dhammas) as little wholes themselves. > > > With metta, > > Alex > #104208 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 6:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Difference between Citta and cetasika? truth_aerator Hello Howard, Nina, RobertK2, and all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 1/5/2010 11:43:19 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Dear Nina, all, > > >What is the difference between citta rooted in greed and lobha >cetasika? > > > I've read that: > "Citta, ceta, cittuppada, nama, mana, are all used as synonymous terms in > Abhidhamma. " . > http://abhidhamonline.org/Chapter1-9/ch10citta/chap01.htm > > Well what sutta calls "nama" includes "Feeling, perception, >volition, contact and attention " > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html > > Since citta & nama are synonyms does this mean that citta and cetasika in > Abhidhamma are synonyms? If so, why distinguish them? Why not just use > nama term (or something like that)? > > > Cetasika is: > (i) that which arises together with consciousness, > (ii) that which perishes together with it, > (iii) that which has an identical object with it, > (iv) that which has a common basis with it. > http://www.abhidhamonline.org/Chapter1-9/ch21cetasika.files/ch21cetasika.htm > > Sounds fairly similar and almost indistinguishable from citta. If cetasika > has the same function as citta, then it is identical. > > > > With metta, > > Alex > ===================================== >Not having seen a reply yet from Nina, I'll try my hand at >one: In >Abhidhammic terminlogy, 'citta' and 'nama' are not >synonymous. Unfortunately it seems to be so: "Citta, Ceta, Cittuppda, Nma, Mana, Vinnna are all used as synonymous terms in Abhidhamma. Hence from the Abhidhamma standpoint no distinction is made between mind and consciousness." - Manual of Abhidhamma By Narada Maha Thera page 24. > A citta is an act of knowing an object. Namas are any mental >operations, with consciousness being merely the most fundamental. But doesn't an act of knowing is the basically the same as "mental operations" >Liking, disliking, understanding, > fearing - these are also namas, all depending, of course, on citta. Lobha is > the activity of desiring an object. Citta is the mere knowing of the object. > An object can be known greedily or not. The greediness, when it occurs, *accompanies* citta. It is concomitant to citta. So, the citta rooted in lobha > is consciousness accompanied by greed, but it is not the accompanying > greed. > > With metta, > Howard Isn't "activity of desiring an object" the same as "mere knowing of the object. An object can be known greedily or not." The distinction appears to be a very fine if any. Thank you for your reply, With metta, Alex #104209 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 2:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Difference between Citta and cetasika? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 1/5/2010 6:52:26 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Isn't "activity of desiring an object" the same as "mere knowing of the object. ========================= IMO, simply put, "no". :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104210 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 3:05 pm Subject: Quenched! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Quenching all Craving & Clinging Releases! The brahmin M agandiya once asked the Buddha about how to detach: Question: How does one quench all this urge of craving and clinging? Answer: One should stop all mental diversification and proliferation by giving up the conception "I am"! This internal craving for existence should be dispelled... Whatever theory one understands should neither induce pride, nor thereby regarding of 'Me' as better, worse or equal to anyone. When contacted by various forms, one should not form a mental image or concept about a self! Such friend is at peace within himself & need not seek peace from another! He neither takes up, nor lays down anything. Therefore he cannot be moved! He does not desire any sights, sounds, flavours, amusements or common talk. He would not cherish or delight in any phenomena at all, in the entire world... When affected by pain, he does not lament, nor does he long for survival or tremble, when in great danger. He would not accumulate anything, whether things, eatables or clothes. Nor is he afraid of not receiving or loosing all... Such Bhikkhu is a meditator, not foot-loose, pure, not negligent, dwelling in remote lodgings, where there is little noise & no disturbance from company... Sutta-Nipata 915-925 Edited excerpt. <..> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104211 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 12:50 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Mindfulness of breathing is generally believed to be an easy subject of meditation, but this is a misunderstanding; it is one of the most intricate subjects. If one tries to concentrate on breath without right understanding of this subject there will be clinging instead of calm. Breath is a bodily phenomenon which is conditioned by citta. It can appear as hardness, softness, heat or pressure. Those who want to develop this subject and have accumulated conditions to develop it have to be mindful of breath where it touches the tip of the nose or the upper-lip. However, breath is very subtle, it is most difficult to be mindful of it. The Path of Purification (VIII, 208) states: For while other meditation subjects become clearer at each higher stage, this one does not: in fact, as he goes on developing it, it becomes more subtle for him at each higher stage, and it even comes to the point at which it is no longer manifest. We read further on (VIII, 211): But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Silent Buddhas , and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons. In proportion as continued attention is given to it, it becomes more peaceful and more subtle. So strong mindfulness and understanding are necessary here. Buddhas sons are the Buddhas disciples who had accumulated great wisdom and who were endowed with excellent qualities. Thus, this subject is not suitable for everybody. We cling to breath since our life depends on it. Breathing stops when our life comes to an end. When this subject is developed in the right way, it has to be known when there is clinging to breath or to calm; it has to be known when there is akusala citta and when kusala citta. Otherwise it is impossible to develop calm with this subject. It is difficult to know the characteristic of breath, one may easily take for breath what is not breath. Following the movement of the abdomen is not mindfulness of breathing. Some people do breathing exercises for the sake of relaxation. While one concentrates on ones breathing, one cannot think of ones worries at the same time and then one feels more relaxed. This is not mindfulness of breathing, which has as its aim the temporary release from clinging. Mindfulness of breathing is extremely difficult and if one develops it in the wrong way, there is wrong concentration, there is no development of wholesomeness. For the development of this subject one has to lead a secluded life and many conditions have to be fulfilled. ****** Nina. #104212 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Difference between Citta and cetasika? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 5-jan-2010, om 20:40 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Cetasika is: > (i) that which arises together with consciousness, > (ii) that which perishes together with it, > (iii) that which has an identical object with it, > (iv) that which has a common basis with it. > http://www.abhidhamonline.org/Chapter1-9/ch21cetasika.files/ > ch21cetasika.htm > > Sounds fairly similar and almost indistinguishable from citta. If > cetasika has the same function as citta, then it is identical. -------- N: As Howard explained, they are not identical. Citta knows clearly an object, be it visible object, sound, seeing, anger. Each citta is accompanied by several cetasikas, mental factors, that also experience the same object as citta, but which each perform their own function while doing so. They support the citta they accompany each in their own way. Citta is the chief in knowing an object and the accompanying feeling experiences the flavour of the object, sa~n~naa marks and remembers the object, concentration is onepointedness on the object. Citta and cetasikas that arise together condition one another. Akusala cetasikas that accompany akusala citta condition it to experience the object in an unwholesome way, and sobhana cetasikas that accompany kusala citta condition it to experience the object in a wholesome way. Citta and cetasikas are naama, they are realities that experience an object. The term naama can be used differently in different contexts. In the D.O. we read: vi~n~naa.na conditions naama/ruupa. Here vi~n~naa.na stands for vipaakacitta and naama are cetasikas that are vipaaka. Thus, in each case we have to consider the context. Nina. #104213 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. upasaka_howard Dear Nina - In a message dated 1/6/2010 12:50:51 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, Mindfulness of breathing is generally believed to be an easy subject of meditation, but this is a misunderstanding; it is one of the most intricate subjects. If one tries to concentrate on breath without right understanding of this subject there will be clinging instead of calm. ------------------------------------------------------- While I can't claim right understanding, I can tell you in truth that my breathing-centered meditation is easy and calming and without desire, clinging, or stress. This is not to say that it is hindrance-free. My primary hindrance is sloth & torpor, and I use various means, especially standing meditation, to reduce it's impact. ------------------------------------------------------ Breath is a bodily phenomenon which is conditioned by citta. It can appear as hardness, softness, heat or pressure. ---------------------------------------------------- Yes, indeed. The subject "breath" is a complex of physical phenomena, not a single thing. -------------------------------------------------- Those who want to develop this subject and have accumulated conditions to develop it have to be mindful of breath where it touches the tip of the nose or the upper-lip. ----------------------------------------------------- There is more to examine than that, however. (And neither the upper lip nor nose tip is a magical "spot.")The entire body (of sensations) and mind as well come to be observed, and SHOULD be observed. The process of meditation proceeds by means of mindful guarding of attention, staying present and avoiding getting lost in thought, lost in excitement, and lost in sloth & torpor. Mindful attention engendering and maintaining calm and clarity is what meditation is about. ------------------------------------------------------ However, breath is very subtle, it is most difficult to be mindful of it. ----------------------------------------------------- As calm results from the meditation, all bodily processes, including breath, slow down and become more subtle. This is an *advantage* of breath meditation. In order to maintain clarity as the breath becomes more subtle, attention and mindfulness have to intensify, and that is *good*. ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104214 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 6-jan-2010, om 14:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > While I can't claim right understanding, I can tell you in truth that > my breathing-centered meditation is easy and calming and without > desire, > clinging, or stress. This is not to say that it is hindrance-free. > My primary > hindrance is sloth & torpor, and I use various means, especially > standing > meditation, to reduce it's impact. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: Another way to reduce its impact is understanding its > characteristic as only a conditioned dhamma, not self. ----------- > Quote N: Breath is a bodily phenomenon which is conditioned by > citta. It > can appear as hardness, softness, heat or pressure. > ---------------------------------------------------- > H: Yes, indeed. The subject "breath" is a complex of physical > phenomena, > not a single thing. > -------------------------------------------------- > N: It is tangible object, not a whole of impressions. It is just > like tangible object appearing when touching a thing. Not a whole, > but a single dhamma. The whole day there is touching and it is most > of the time followed by attachment which may be very subtle. We are > so used to experiencing tangible object, like hardness or softness, > we take it for granted. But we can learn that we like touching and > tangible object. There is like, even a little. We do not want to > be without it. ----------- > Quote N: Those who want to > develop this subject and have accumulated conditions to develop it > have to be mindful of breath where it touches the tip of the nose or > the upper-lip. > ----------------------------------------------------- > H: There is more to examine than that, however. (And neither the upper > lip nor nose tip is a magical "spot.") ----- N: This is specifically in the case of breath. See Visuddhimagga. -------- > H: The entire body (of sensations) and > mind as well come to be observed, and SHOULD be observed. The > process of > meditation proceeds by means of mindful guarding of attention, > staying present > and avoiding getting lost in thought, lost in excitement, and lost > in sloth > & torpor. Mindful attention engendering and maintaining calm and > clarity is > what meditation is about. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: It depends for what purpose one develops it. When it is the calm > of jhaana the hindrances have to be suppressed. When it is insight, > then no avoidance but getting know these hindrances. In vipassanaa > all realities have to be known as non-self. Mere conditioned > dhammas. Not just by repeating words, but by developing > understanding of the characteristics of dhammas when they appear. -------- I just listened to audio , K K Jan. 2007, 01-13, a. Here this subject is discussed. If you feel inclined to it, you could listen. > Nina. #104215 From: "Dhammadipa" Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 7:11 am Subject: Re: 'dhamma' in Theravada abhidhamma and Nagarjuna dhdipa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: As I understand it, Theravada and other early schools refute the self existence of the whole but affirm the existence of the parts. As I understand it, Mahayana denies the ultimate self-existence of the parts themselves as well. Perhaps Nagarjuna wanted to fix the tendency to regard the parts (paramattha dhammas) as little wholes themselves. Dear Alex, thanks for your thought. But as I understand it, even Theravada Abhidhamma denies the self-existence of the parts, unlike Sarvastivada. as for the Theravadins, as I understood, there is no single atom, rather it can be further analyzed, or an atom is made out of sub-atoms, and they are there depending upon each other, and never independent by themselves. And they are separated by air elements for which they don't touch each other. And Theravada also explain everything in terms of analysis and synthesis. That's why Dhammasanghani has to go with patthana to understand that nothing in independent by themselves. even citta and cetasika they are alway together in their arising and ceasing.... but when it comes to dhamma as the ultimate then I am a bit confused.... (I am not an expert in Abhidhamma, so I am happy to be corrected) #104216 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 12:43 pm Subject: OFF WITH THEIR HEADS ksheri3 Hi Ken O, Happy New year, although I've considered saying Happy New to my Buddhist colleagues since the Asian calenders do not subscribe to the RITUALS of the Julian Callender (I think). INTERESTING? > KO: We shall colette: OH WE SHALL? AND I SUPPOSE THAT IN ORDER TO FULFILL THE DELUSIONS OF THIS SCRIPT THAT SOMEBODY ELSE WROTE FOR ME REQUIRE ME TO PLACE MY FOOT IN THIS SPOT AT THIS TIME WHERE I AM TO SAY SOME MANTRA, OR IS IT THE ROBOTICS THAT ARTHUR MURRAY DANCE SCHOOL TEACHES IT'S PAYING SLAVES THAT NEED TO BE PROGRAMMED OR IS IT THE ATHLETIC DEPT OF THE INSTITUTION, THE UNIVERISTY THAT REQUIRES IT'S, for instance, FOOTBALL PLAYERS TO BEHAVE IN A GIVEN ROBOTIC SCHEME WHERE THEY CAN BE CONTROLLED? Mantra you say? How about the Matra Schools or what about the Yantra Schools, etc, these are all schools that prescribe a ritual behavior or a given set of routines which we can find in any computer program that any computer operates on/from. Okay, the question arises: is this supposed "life" nothing more than a mechanical existance and are we nothing more than machines? Fine, we can ask that, but the reality exists that we cannot answer this question unless we delve into the ABHIDHARMA which helps us to see that ANYTHING MANIFESTED IS TRANSIENT, IS RELATIVE, AND LACKS ULITMATE EXISTANCE. ---------------------- experience the characerteristics as it comes to which sense. Maybe we are not looking at the wall and we bang onto it. colette: now we get into this maze about sense organs and sense consciousness: which came first the chicken or the egg, the prostitute or the customer, the virus or the petri dish, the eye-consciousness or the mind-consciousness, etc? --------------------------------- BOY ARE YOU TAKING ON SOME SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS GROUND UPCOMING SINCE MY BODY IS COVERED IN SCARS FROM OPERATIONS THAT DOCTORS/SURGEONS HAVE PERFORMED ON ME. I ALSO HAD A SCHOLLARSHIP IN FOOTBALL TO UNIVERSITY BEFORE MY AUTOMOBILE ACCIDENT TOOK IT AWAY FROM ME, IN THE 1970S. However lets tackle this shade of IGNORANCE: -------- If the most prominent sense object is pain, we should be aware of it. colette: how so? how should we be aware of a pain or pain itself, before it has befallen us?<..> ----------------- Thereafter we tends to look at what we hit, colette: psst, I know you Theravadans have a problem with this thing called the Alaya-Vijnana but hell, even you gotta admit that the story you're givin' me here, right now, is a bit WAY OUT THERE AND HIGHLY DELUSIONAL. ------------------ this should be seeing object, the colour of the object. Not just wall, we could bang against the door or windows made of glass, it is still hard and painful. colette: the point is that these hallucinations DO NOT EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE FOR YOU TO BOTHER YOUR ALAYA-VIJNANA WITH ANY GIBBERISH THAT THE ALAYA-VIJNANA CANNOT UNDERSTAND IN THE FIRST PLACE. THESE HALLUCINATIONS ARE NOTHING MORE THAN ILLUSIONS. THESE HALLUCINATIONS ARE NOTHING MORE THAN PARTS OF THE BARDO. YOU ARE ONLY A PART OF THE BARDO FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, THE BARDO IS THERE FOREVER, YOU ONLY EXPERIENCE THESE HALLUCINATIONS BECAUSE OF YOUR TRANSIENT PRESENCE, OTHERWISE, WHEN YOU LEAVE THE BARDO, YOU DO NOT EXPERIENCE THEM IN THE SAME FORM. It's nothing more than a purification process. ----- The object could be of different colour. ---------------------- > I cannot force others to believe nama and rupa, it is not easy to believe because it goes against our fundamental attachment to a self. colette: Thank you,<...>. What you believe is different from what I believe <...>. My point is that mental illness only occurs when there is a difference of opinion. I am a firm believer in the Alaya-Vijnana and the power of the mind THEREFORE it is my wish to allow you to believe what you wanna believe and still, we can live our lives without problems. ----------------- > To understand nama and rupa will result one tearing away ones assumption, there is a self that practise. colette: <...> Hark, do I hear the coffee pot whistling? Can you smell the coffee? ----------------------- > This is because it goes against the teachings in the suttas that there is a self that is practising, putting effort. \ colette: <...> People are not deliberately and intentionaly GOING AGAINST THE TEACHINGS IN THE SUTTAS, etc., they are IGNORANT of the teachings and they cannot make a choice if they are not cognizant of the teachings. IGNORANCE, mind you, is one of the Buddha's first proclaimations, so please, allow the Buddha to have an opinion. The Buddha may not be as powerful as those suburbanites that are slaving away to pay off a mortgage that is no-where near of equal value to their property, but that's why they're IGNORANT, isn't it? GOTTA GO. I didn't want to come down so heavy on ya, since this is my first post since the new year but I hope you'll see this with the same WHIMSEY that I issued it/wrote it and know that this too, is TRANSIENT. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Hi Colette > > > >HITTING YOUR HEAD AGAINST A WALL. <...> #104217 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 4:20 pm Subject: Break out of the Shackle of Anger! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: COOLED One should cool any anger, let go of any pride and leave behind any attachment. Such cooled one, not clinging neither to identity, body, form nor world cannot ever suffer any pain. Dhammapada Illustration 221 Background Story 221 CONTROL Whoever do not loose his temper, even in a rage, like a car pressed in a high speed turn, him I call 'a Driver', others are merely holders of the wheel. Dhammapada Illustration 222 Background Story 222 TOOLS One can only overcome anger with kindness. One can only conquer evil with good.. One can only win the miser by generosity... One can only convince the liar with truth.... Dhammapada Illustration 223 Background Story 223 Comments: The Buddha urges us not to act foolishly in anger and not to bear any ill will towards others, so that we may have an opportunity to heal ourselves from karma established in past lives, and in this very life! When we are proud, self important, egocentric, and narcissistic, we are CLINGING to our identity and body. When we do not share our possessions, money, or other surplus material objects, we are CLINGING to forms. When we become attached to temporal states brought about by concentration like rapture, serenity, and bliss, we are CLINGING to the formless. When we are irritable, impatient, angry, aggressive, abusive, or violent, the cause of these very detrimental states is that very CLINGING! The Exalted One teaches us that it is the superior person who is able to control his rising anger. Once our anger is controlled and stilled, through the eradication of CLINGING, our relationships are transformed with the practice of kindness, generosity, and integrity under any and all circumstances. When we can employ an attitude of compassion, understanding, open mindedness, and altruism we are walking steadfastly on the path, while enjoying peace, serenity, bliss, rapture…Nibbana! Break out of the shackle of anger! With Metta, Jonathan #104218 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 9:01 pm Subject: Re: 'dhamma' in Theravada abhidhamma and Nagarjuna ptaus1 Dear Dhammadipa, There's a section in Useful Posts file called "Paramattha dhamma1 (ultimate reality)", which contains posts from previsou discusions on this topic. Might help. You can get to Useful Posts file by clicking on "Files" option in the menu on the left on the group home page, then on the linked file called "Useful Posts December 2009.htm" (currently ninth fom the top). Once the file is loaded, scroll down to P and the section "Paramattha dhamma1" should be there. From my beginner understanding of the topic, ultimate realities do not exist is the sense of little existing entities because they are conditioned, however, they are realities in the sense that they can be really experienced through insight, unlike concepts about realities which will be revealed to be mere illusions by the same insight. Best wishes pt > thanks for your thought. But as I understand it, even Theravada Abhidhamma denies the self-existence of the parts, unlike Sarvastivada. as for the Theravadins, as I understood, there is no single atom, rather it can be further analyzed, or an atom is made out of sub-atoms, and they are there depending upon each other, and never independent by themselves. And they are separated by air elements for which they don't touch each other. And Theravada also explain everything in terms of analysis and synthesis. That's why Dhammasanghani has to go with patthana to understand that nothing in independent by themselves. even citta and cetasika they are alway together in their arising and ceasing.... but when it comes to dhamma as the ultimate then I am a bit confused.... (I am not an expert in Abhidhamma, so I am happy to be corrected) #104219 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 12:05 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Does one have to lead a secluded life for the development of all meditation subjects? There are different degrees of calm and if one has accumulated the inclination and capacity to cultivate a high degree of calm, even the degree of absorption, a secluded life is one of the conditions which are favourable for the attainment of it. However, only very few people can reach absorption, as the Path of Purification states. Even if one has no inclination to develop a high degree of calm there can be conditions for moments of calm in daily life. Some of the meditation subjects, such as the development of loving-kindness, can be a condition for calm in daily life. It is felt by some that for the development of this subject one has to be alone and one has to concentrate on thoughts of loving-kindness. The development of loving-kindness is not a matter of concentration but of right understanding. Loving-kindness can and should be developed when one is in the company of other people. It has to be clearly understood when there is unselfish kindness and when there is selfish affection. Moments of loving-kindness are likely to be followed by moments of attachment. Right understanding of ones different cittas is indispensable for the development of this subject, as it is for the development of all subjects of meditation. The Path of Purification (IX, 2) explains that in order to develop loving- kindness one should consider the danger of ill-will and the advantage of patience. It states that one cannot abandon unseen danger and attain unknown advantages. Thus we see again that right understanding is emphasized. We may dislike someone and we may be impatient about his behaviour. When we see the disadvantages of unwholesome thoughts there may be conditions for thoughts of kindness instead. That person may not treat us in a friendly way, but we can still consider him as a friend. True friendship does not depend on other peoples behaviour, true friendship depends on the kusala citta. When we feel lonely, because we miss the company of friends, we should investigate our own citta. Is there loving-kindness with the citta? This point of view can change our outlook on our relationship with our fellowmen, and as a consequence our attitude can become less selfish. ******* Nina. #104220 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangha politics in Thailand sarahprocter... Hi Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Herman > > because the Elders even though are Arahants do not possessed the same Omniscient knowledge of the Buddha. Buddha did mention in one sutta about some minor rules could be changed but since they did not ask what are the minor rules could be changed and also Buddha did not further elaborate on his statements, they accepted Buddha's unquestioningly. This the type of teaching I will follow. ... S: Yes, I agree with your sentiment. Do you have the PTS commentary of the Mahaparinibbana Sutta ("The Buddha's Last Days")? If so, more detail on this, p.180 At the beginning it says: " '[The Order] should abolish (samuuhanatu)': If it desires, it should abolish means let it abolish if it wants to. However, why did he not definitely say, 'You should abolish (samuuhanatha)', but lay it down as an option? Because he considered the power of Mahaakassapa. "For the Blessed One envisages that Kassapa will not abolish at the time of the recital, even though he says: 'You should abolish', so he made it only an option." Metta Sarah ======= #104221 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 1:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (& pt), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear pt > > At times I personally felt that pleasant and unpleasant object is not an adequate word to describe kusala vipaka or aksuala vipaka. Take for example, dung to human is an akusala vipaka. ... S: this also relates to something else you wrote to me (with regard to experiencing the same object) which I didn't pursue. Let's be clear with our short-hand (as I know you know!) that vipaka refers to the citta, not to the object experienced. You mean that it is akusala vipaka to experience dung for a human. However, this is like saying that eating a nice meal is kusala vipaka. In conventional, daily language it's OK - we might say we had some good vipaka when we had a good meal or bad vipaka when we had a bad meal. In reality, however, vipaka only experiences visible object, sound, taste, smell and tangible objects through the senses.There are many different cittas, many kinds of vipaka, many mind-door processes involved when we refer to eating a good meal or coming across some dung. The vipaka at such moments just depends on past kamma. .... > For the for five sense other than the body senses, they are derived materiality and are not strong therefore feeling is indifference. Bodily sense is different because it is comprised of the four elements, it is strong, there are bodily pain and pleasure feelings. > > This is the Abhidhamma explanation ... S: Yes, this is interesting. To put it another (slightly different way), because three of the primary elements, earth, fire and air impinge on the body-sense (not a primary rupa, a derived rupa), the impact is said to be strong as compared to the balls of cotton-wool on an anvil being struck by a hammer. The hammer breaks through the cotton-wool and hits the anvil whereas for the other senses when derived rupas impact on the senses (also derived rupas), it is said to be like the balls of cotton-wool on the anvil being struck by other balls of cotton-wool. Good points to discuss... Metta Sarah ===== #104222 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 1:34 am Subject: Read Original Article was: Sangha politics in Thailand dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Ken O > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > > Dear Herman > > > ... snip C: 1. Can we bring this important thread back to original topic? 2. Did you carefully peruse the article? 3. Do you agree with all of the article? Why? 4. Do you only agree with parts of the article? What parts? Why? 5: In case you did not read the article, please do so... http://wyaryan.blogspot.com/2009/10/buddhist-treatment-of-women-criticized.html Sincere warm thanks... as ever, el diablo (in another parallel universe) metta (maitri), Chuck Management: Please delete if you find this message distasteful... #104223 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangha politics in Thailand. nilovg Dear Sarah, Ken O and all, Op 7-jan-2010, om 10:10 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Do you have the PTS commentary of the Mahaparinibbana Sutta ("The > Buddha's Last Days")? > > If so, more detail on this, p.180 > > At the beginning it says: > > " '[The Order] should abolish (samuuhanatu)': If it desires, it > should abolish means let it abolish if it wants to. However, why > did he not definitely say, 'You should abolish (samuuhanatha)', but > lay it down as an option? Because he considered the power of > Mahaakassapa. > > "For the Blessed One envisages that Kassapa will not abolish at the > time of the recital, even though he says: 'You should abolish', so > he made it only an option." ---------- On Rob's forum there are interesting discussions and also a post by Ven. Dhammanando. I shall quote a part of it. ------- Ven. Dhammanando writes: (end quote) Nina. #104224 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need your help sarahprocter... Dear Dinesh, Apologies for a slow response. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dinesh" wrote: > Thank you so much for responding to my question. But still there remains a doubt: Is there any possibility for ditti to be involved in here? > My understanding is that the cittas arise in those particular instances cannot be connected with wrong view and they are more likely to be rooted in Moha than in Lobha. I don't knowwhat do you think? ... S: (Your original qu. is stated below). Yes, as I said, there may well be ditthi. Only panna (right understanding) can know at any moment. I think it's very difficult to know about our own (let alone another's) cittas when we speak. There may be wrong views involved, really taking the money for being real and of greatest importance, or not. Why do you think there cannot be wrong view? Metta Sarah > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, Dinesh Kularathne wrote: > > I’m an absolute beginner of Abhidhamma. Please help me by > > answering my following question. > > What is the citta that arises in one’s mind when he/she thinks, > > “money is everything” > > ... > > S: It would either be a citta with moha (ignorance) or a citta with ditthi (wrong view) of one kind of other. It seems like ditth-upadana - clinging with wrong view. (Of course, there is also moha with such cittas too). #104225 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 2:16 am Subject: Re: Parajika in the Vinaya Pitaka. Was: Angry Monks sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, I don't think anyone answered this and you probably won't like my comments:-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > As pointed out above, there are four Parajika offenses in the Vinaya Pitaka. > > I have three questions: > > 1. Have you ever given an illegal copy of a program, etc. to a bhikkhu? > > 2. Has a bhikkhu ever give you an illegal copy of a program, etc? > > 3. Is that stealing? A Parajika offense? ... S: Interesting points to raise and quotes. Whether it is stealing or not will of course depend on the intention and knowledge involved. I think the most important thing is to understand our own minds and intentions, rather than be too concerned about the others' intentions and sila. Do you have further ideas yourself? Metta Sarah ====== #104226 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 2:29 am Subject: Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? sarahprocter... Dear Chuck & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > I understand an Arahant (Skt: Arahat) generates neutral Kamma. That is, the Arahants' actions generate no good (white, positive) nor bad (black, negative) results from their actions. > > Question: Where in the Tipitaka is this taught? ... S: Someone else may be able to give you a sutta reference, but it's spelled out clearly in the Abhidhamma. From CMA, a summary, p. 50: "There are eight types of sense-sphere functional consciousness with roots" (imaani a.t.tha pi sahetuka-kaamaavacara-kiriyaacittaani naama)." Guide note: "Whereas the eight wholesome sense-sphere cittas arise in worldlings and trainees, they do not arise in Buddhas and Arahants, who have transcended the cycle of kamma and future becoming in the realms of rebirth. However, in Buddhas and Arahants there arise eight types of consciousness which are their exact counterparts. These are called kriyaa (kiriya) or functional cittas because they merely perform their functions without leaving any kammic deposit. Because a Buddha or an Arahant has eradicated all traces of ignorance and craving, the causes of rebirth, there is no way his good actions could generate future results. They merely arise, accomplish some function, and then fall away without residue." I hope this helpful. Metta Sarah ======= #104227 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 1:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hard in training, easy in battle!" sarahprocter... Dear Ken O & all, You give many good reminders. I liked these ones: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > The other difficult thing to see is that there is always an inherent desire to know how much we develop, or with this practise my development will increase this and that or with this practise that is how it is develop. To know how much we develop the best way is known how we understand ourselves in difficult situations like being scolded by someone else, are we being angry in return or...? Understanding present reality does not need any training, tools or practise, it is as natural as we breath in and breath out. For illustration, seeing is natural and arise by its own conditions. And importantly do we see this characteristics as it arise or do we wait to see this characterisitcs during training as it arise< ... Also: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: >When one seeing reailty at the moment, it is just nama and it is just rupa. Simple message but a very truthful way of developing satipatthana. One does not worry whether one could see the characteristics of nama and rupa. When panna becomes keener and keener, such understanding of characteristics will arise naturally. Not agited, not worry, not thinking too much or label it because they very likely will condition clinging. ... Metta Sarah ======== #104228 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (& Scott), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Scott - regarding bhavanga cittas, citta could be a mind object. But I do believe panna able to see it but I am not sure how panna arise to see it. So far I have yet to see any text on this, > ... S: Yes, panna can arise and understand bhavanga cittas in the same way it can arise and understand any other cittas which have just fallen away. The characteristic of the bhavanga citta can appear. No expectations about what may appear next! Metta Sarah ======== #104229 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > >C: For me, it first pa.tipatti (following precepts reinforced with meditation) and, to a lessor degree pariyatti - Tipitaka study. > > > > > > However, we all are different; hence, what is applicable to me may well not be applicable to you. > > .... > > S: Yes, and I think we use the terms a little differently too.... > > > C: I am not sure what you mean. Please clarify for me. Thanks. ... S: I understand pa.tipatti to refer to satipa.t.thaana, moments of right understanding of realities. I understand pariyatti to refer to moments of understanding with concepts of realities as object. For example, during the day there may be many moments of wise reflecting on what we've read and heard about present dhammas. At such moments there is pariyatti, even when no Tipitaka study is involved, although perhaps we can also refer to this as Tipitaka study - sikkha, study, in a deeper sense with understanding and awareness at this moment. (You may like to look at the section "pariyatti, patipatti, pativedha" in Useful Posts if you have time.) Metta Sarah ===== #104230 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 2:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I would have to make a special study for this and no time now. I do > not believe there is a puase between maggacitta and phalacitta. The > maggacitta is such powerful kamma that its vipaaka follows in the > same process. ... S: CMA, p.177 'cattaaro pana magg'uppaada ekacittakkha.nikaa. Tato para.m dve tii.ni phalacittaani yathaaraha.m uppajjanti. Tato para.m bhavangapaato.' "The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment. Thereafter, two or three occasions of fruition consciousness arise according to the case. Then comes subsidence into the life-continuum." Metta Sarah ====== #104231 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:02 am Subject: Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > ... snip > > > > Question: Where in the Tipitaka is this taught? > ... > S: Someone else may be able to give you a sutta reference, but it's spelled out clearly in the Abhidhamma. > > ... snip > > > From CMA, a summary, p. 50: > > I hope this helpful. > C: Nope!!! 1. I did not ask for a Sutta-pitaka reference, did I not? 2. I asked for a Tipitaka reference, did I not? 3. The CMA is not the Tipitaka, or have I been taught incorrectly? 4. You provided a CMA reference rather than a Tipitaka reference, did you not? 5. FWIW, I have a hard-copy of the CMA; but, it is not what I asked, is it? 5. [Verily beeg Texican sighs!!!] peace... metta (maitri), Chuck Managers: If you find this message distasteful; please, delete!!! ... snip #104232 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:21 am Subject: Re: Parajika in the Vinaya Pitaka. Was: Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al I am very surprised!!! You wrote in part: "...and you probably won't like my comments:-)" Questions: 1. What does it matter whether I like your comment or not like your comment? 2. If you speak from superior knowledge (mundane and supramundane knowledge), you should not be concerned!!! Is that not correct? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck Management: If you find this message distasteful; please, delete!!! > ... snip #104233 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:29 am Subject: Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Chuck & all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > I understand an Arahant (Skt: Arahat) generates neutral Kamma. That is, the Arahants' actions generate no good (white, positive) nor bad (black, negative) results from their actions. > > > > Question: Where in the Tipitaka is this taught? > ... > S: Someone else may be able to give you a sutta reference, but it's spelled out clearly in the Abhidhamma. > > From CMA, a summary, p. 50: ------------ Hi Sarah, I am sure you had your reasons but I wonder why you didn't give the usual reference. There is even a separate heading for it in Useful Posts: Kamma3 - black and white/bright and dark, Vitthaara Sutta, AN You could have spared yourself an admonishment. Ken H #104234 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need your help ashkenn2k Dear Dinesh Lobha is there because lobha likes everything. As long as there is a liking for objects, there is lobha. It is not the function of moha to like. Moha is to blind/hide us from the truth. Now the question is whether ditthi arise. a. I like money. The "I" is ditthi, thinking there is a self, a self that likes. b. One admire a ten thousand dollar bill on the newspaper/magazine. This is lobha because lobha likes the object. - This type is more of lobha itself without self unless one thinks I like to have the money that is ditthi which is explain at a. Lobha could also arise with conceit c. I am the richer than that person - the I am is conceit. Regarding whether "thinking colour of the vase is red". This is slightly difficult to explain At the moment of seeing, there is no thinking. Seeing citta would cognize the different colours be it red, green or other colour at that moment of seeing. When we think that is red or label this as red, that is not directly seeing it. Then citta that thinks that is red or label this as red is real, however red is not real as it is labelling word for the colour which is a concept. Let me explain again, red as a concept exist as a mental object in the citta (which thinks) but red is not real because it does not have characteristics. Citta is real as it has characteristics. I hope I do not confuse you on this. IMHO, understanding nama and rupa is eradicating wrong views and doubt. Concepts by itself is nothing wrong. What is wrong view is not understanding nama and rupa when it appears throught the senses. What is doubt is not understanding nama and rupa arise from causes and conditions. Cheers Ken O ________________________________ From: sarah To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 7 January 2010 6:10:39 Subject: Re: [dsg] Need your help Dear Dinesh, Apologies for a slow response. --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, "Dinesh" wrote: > Thank you so much for responding to my question. But still there remains a doubt: Is there any possibility for ditti to be involved in here? > My understanding is that the cittas arise in those particular instances cannot be connected with wrong view and they are more likely to be rooted in Moha than in Lobha. I don't know…what do you think? ... S: (Your original qu. is stated below). Yes, as I said, there may well be ditthi. Only panna (right understanding) can know at any moment. I think it's very difficult to know about our own (let alone another's) cittas when we speak. There may be wrong views involved, really taking the money for being real and of greatest importance, or not. Why do you think there cannot be wrong view? Metta Sarah > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, Dinesh Kularathne wrote: > > I’m an absolute beginner of Abhidhamma. Please help me by > > answering my following question. > > What is the citta that arises in one’s mind when he/she thinks, > > “money is everythingâ€� > > ... > > S: It would either be a citta with moha (ignorance) or a citta with ditthi (wrong view) of one kind of other. It seems like ditth-upadana - clinging with wrong view. (Of course, there is also moha with such cittas too). #104235 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:51 am Subject: Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? dhammasaro Good friend Ken H, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > Dear Chuck & all, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > > > I understand an Arahant (Skt: Arahat) generates neutral Kamma. That is, the Arahants' actions generate no good (white, positive) nor bad (black, negative) results from their actions. > > > > > > Question: Where in the Tipitaka is this taught? > > ... > > S: Someone else may be able to give you a sutta reference, but it's spelled out clearly in the Abhidhamma. > > > > From CMA, a summary, p. 50: > ------------ > ... snip > Hi Sarah, > > I am sure you had your reasons but I wonder why you didn't give the usual reference. There is even a separate heading for it in Useful Posts: Kamma3 - black and white/bright and dark, Vitthaara Sutta, AN > > You could have spared yourself an admonishment. > > Ken H > C: Are you a psychic? If you are, you fail in this instance!!! Over the years since 2001, I have saved and reviewed many, many DSG messages!!! As well as lately, I have reviewed the saved on-line messages, before asking a question!!! FWIW, I try to be very, very thorough, as I was taught!!! In my most humbleness, I deeply and sincerely apologize to you for your apparent continued, displeasure with this ole cantankerous, despicable, opinionated Texican. Das est der bestest ah kin ofer... as ever, el diablo (in another parallel universe) Chuck Management: If you determine this message as distasteful, please delete!!! #104236 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 4:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] OFF WITH THEIR HEADS ashkenn2k Dear Collete > Happy New year, although I've considered saying Happy New to my Buddhist > colleagues since the Asian calenders do not subscribe to the RITUALS of the > Julian Callender (I think). > KO: its ok and I still enjoy the holiday :-) > colette: how so? how should we be aware of a pain or pain itself, before it has > befallen us?<..> > ----------------- KO: as pain itself when it is experienced by the body cittas. > colette: Thank you,<...>. What you believe is different from what I believe > <...>. My point is that mental illness only occurs when there is a difference of > opinion. I am a firm believer in the Alaya-Vijnana and the power of the mind > THEREFORE it is my wish to allow you to believe what you wanna believe and > still, we can live our lives without problems. > ----------------- > KO: Could you help by explaining more on Alaya-Vijnana as I do not know this, thanks. Mental illness arise because of lobha, dosa and moha. > > I didn't want to come down so heavy on ya, since this is my first post since the > new year but I hope you'll see this with the same WHIMSEY that I issued it/wrote > it and know that this too, is TRANSIENT. KO: its ok, to me. Only when lobha or dosa arise with the thinking of the words written by others, than that is coming down heavy on onself. What for if one knows there are just words, a mental construct :-). And when we react negatively over it, isn't that akusala, isn't that not satipatthana. Cheers Ken O #104237 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 4:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. ashkenn2k Dear Howard >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- >There is more to examine than that, however. (And neither the upper >lip nor nose tip is a magical "spot.")The entire body (of sensations) and >mind as well come to be observed, and SHOULD be observed. The process of >meditation proceeds by means of mindful guarding of attention, staying present >and avoiding getting lost in thought, lost in excitement, and lost in sloth >& torpor. Mindful attention engendering and maintaining calm and clarity is >what meditation is about. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------ KO: At the moment when panna arise, there is no hindrances, no excitement, not forgetful, not distracted. > >However, breath is very subtle, it is most difficult >to be mindful of it. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- >As calm results from the meditation, all bodily processes, including >breath, slow down and become more subtle. This is an *advantage* of breath >meditation. In order to maintain clarity as the breath becomes more subtle, >attention and mindfulness have to intensify, and that is *good*. >============ ========= ===== KO: Mindfulness always arise with panna, clarify always arise with panna and calm always arise with panna. And when panna becomes keener, it is able to understand the sublte characteristic of dhamma. Cheers Ken O #104238 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 4:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Read Original Article was: Sangha politics in Thailand ashkenn2k Sorry Chuck No disrespect, I was surprised it was re-surfaced by Sarah after so many weeks ago. Too many opinions in the articule and I leave such matters to kamma to decide. I am more incline to discuss with people on nama and rupa. I seek your understanding on this. thanks Cheers Ken O > >C: > >1. Can we bring this important thread back to original topic? > >2. Did you carefully peruse the article? > >3. Do you agree with all of the article? Why? > >4. Do you only agree with parts of the article? What parts? Why? > >5: In case you did not read the article, please do so... > >http://wyaryan. blogspot. com/2009/ 10/buddhist- treatment- of-women- criticized. html > >Sincere warm thanks... > >as ever, el diablo (in another parallel universe) > >metta (maitri), > >Chuck > > #104239 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 11:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? upasaka_howard Hi, Chuck (and Sarah) - In a message dated 1/7/2010 3:02:30 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, dhammasaro@... writes: > From CMA, a summary, p. 50: > > I hope this helpful. > C: Nope!!! 1. I did not ask for a Sutta-pitaka reference, did I not? 2. I asked for a Tipitaka reference, did I not? 3. The CMA is not the Tipitaka, or have I been taught incorrectly? 4. You provided a CMA reference rather than a Tipitaka reference, did you not? 5. FWIW, I have a hard-copy of the CMA; but, it is not what I asked, is it? 5. [Verily beeg Texican sighs!!!] peace... metta (maitri), Chuck ================================= Your point is not wrong, Chuck. The given material may or may not have it's direct source in some book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. As I understand it, the CMA compendium combines Abhidhamma material with commentarial material without specification of which is which. The distinguishing of types of kamma may very well have it's source in the Abhidhamma Pitaka or even in the Sutta Pitaka, and I suspect that is the case, but that hasn't yet been confirmed here. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104240 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? sarahprocter... Dear Ken H (Chuck & Nina), --- On Thu, 7/1/10, kenhowardau wrote: >I am sure you had your reasons but I wonder why you didn't give the usual reference. There is even a separate heading for it in Useful Posts: Kamma3 - black and white/bright and dark, Vitthaara Sutta, AN >You could have spared yourself an admonishment. ... S: Apologies!! Thx, Ken H - actually, I was racing (trying to catch up) and had CMA out next to me... At least it got you posting, perhaps I should race like this more often:) My mother's just arrived, Nina will be glad to hear. Nina, she had a pretty horrific journey out from Heathrow yesterday starting with power cuts for all her village, all the cars and roads snow-bound, so that was the end of her lift. Somehow, amazingly, with her suitcase, she got herself to Heathrow on 3 different trips and a trip across London (fortunately, deserted), a wait at Heathrow for 12 hrs, de-icing of the plane and so on... Anwyay, she's here in good spirits now and a great example of courage, patience and good cheer! She made friends for the whole journey too... Metta Sarah ======= #104241 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/7/2010 3:29:27 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: I am sure you had your reasons but I wonder why you didn't give the usual reference. There is even a separate heading for it in Useful Posts: Kamma3 - black and white/bright and dark, Vitthaara Sutta, AN =============================== Thanks for this, Ken. I suspected it was in a sutta. Does anyone have access to the particular sutta? (The "Vitthara Sutta" given on ATI is a different one.) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104242 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 12:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? upasaka_howard Hi, Chuck - In a message dated 1/7/2010 3:55:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, dhammasaro@... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > I am sure you had your reasons but I wonder why you didn't give the usual reference. There is even a separate heading for it in Useful Posts: Kamma3 - black and white/bright and dark, Vitthaara Sutta, AN > > You could have spared yourself an admonishment. > > Ken H > C: Are you a psychic? If you are, you fail in this instance!!! Over the years since 2001, I have saved and reviewed many, many DSG messages!!! As well as lately, I have reviewed the saved on-line messages, before asking a question!!! FWIW, I try to be very, very thorough, as I was taught!!! In my most humbleness, I deeply and sincerely apologize to you for your apparent continued, displeasure with this ole cantankerous, despicable, opinionated Texican. Das est der bestest ah kin ofer... as ever, el diablo (in another parallel universe) Chuck ================================= Chuck, you are confusing me. :-) Ken had addressed *Sarah*. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104243 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/7/2010 4:46:44 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- >There is more to examine than that, however. (And neither the upper >lip nor nose tip is a magical "spot.")The entire body (of sensations) and >mind as well come to be observed, and SHOULD be observed. The process of >meditation proceeds by means of mindful guarding of attention, staying present >and avoiding getting lost in thought, lost in excitement, and lost in sloth >& torpor. Mindful attention engendering and maintaining calm and clarity is >what meditation is about. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------ KO: At the moment when panna arise, there is no hindrances, no excitement, not forgetful, not distracted. ----------------------------------------------------- That's nice, but so what? And when one becomes an arahant nothing further is required. And when one becomes a stream entrant that is a major beginning. and when one remains a worldling, that's that. -------------------------------------------------- > >However, breath is very subtle, it is most difficult >to be mindful of it. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- >As calm results from the meditation, all bodily processes, including >breath, slow down and become more subtle. This is an *advantage* of breath >meditation. In order to maintain clarity as the breath becomes more subtle, >attention and mindfulness have to intensify, and that is *good*. >============ ========= ===== KO: Mindfulness always arise with panna, clarify always arise with panna and calm always arise with panna. And when panna becomes keener, it is able to understand the sublte characteristic of dhamma. --------------------------------------------------------- Mindfulness always arises with pa~n~na? Are you certain you don't mean the converse? In any case, neither arises randomly. --------------------------------------------------------- Cheers Ken O ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104244 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 5:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:snow. nilovg Dear Sarah, How exciting. Lodewijk and I kept on thinking of her, hearing that Heathrow was no longer operating because of snow. And how to get there from Sussex! Congratulations to her and our warmest regards, Nina. Op 7-jan-2010, om 13:53 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > My mother's just arrived, Nina will be glad to hear. Nina, she had > a pretty horrific journey out from Heathrow yesterday starting with > power cuts for all her village, all the cars and roads snow-bound, > so that was the end of her lift. Somehow, amazingly, with her > suitcase, she got herself to Heathrow on 3 different trips and a > trip across London (fortunately, deserted), a wait at Heathrow for > 12 hrs, de-icing of the plane and so on... > > Anwyay, she's here in good spirits now and a great example of > courage, patience and good cheer! She made friends for the whole > journey too... #104245 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 12:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/7/2010 5:04:32 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: My mother's just arrived, Nina will be glad to hear. Nina, she had a pretty horrific journey out from Heathrow yesterday starting with power cuts for all her village, all the cars and roads snow-bound, so that was the end of her lift. Somehow, amazingly, with her suitcase, she got herself to Heathrow on 3 different trips and a trip across London (fortunately, deserted), a wait at Heathrow for 12 hrs, de-icing of the plane and so on... Anwyay, she's here in good spirits now and a great example of courage, patience and good cheer! She made friends for the whole journey too... ============================ Sorry to hear of that ordeal, Sarah. Glad it worked out well, though. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104246 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 7:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? dhammasaro Good friend Howard, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Chuck (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 3:02:30 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > dhammasaro@... writes: > > > From CMA, a summary, p. 50: > > > > I hope this helpful. > > > > > C: Nope!!! > > 1. I did not ask for a Sutta-pitaka reference, did I not? > > 2. I asked for a Tipitaka reference, did I not? > > 3. The CMA is not the Tipitaka, or have I been taught incorrectly? > > 4. You provided a CMA reference rather than a Tipitaka reference, did you > not? > > 5. FWIW, I have a hard-copy of the CMA; but, it is not what I asked, is > it? > > 5. [Verily beeg Texican sighs!!!] > > > peace... > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > ================================= > Your point is not wrong, Chuck. The given material may or may not have > it's direct source in some book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. As I understand > it, the CMA compendium combines Abhidhamma material with commentarial > material without specification of which is which. The distinguishing of types of > kamma may very well have it's source in the Abhidhamma Pitaka or even in > the Sutta Pitaka, and I suspect that is the case, but that hasn't yet been > confirmed here. > > With metta, > Howard > > C: 1. May I gently and softly suggest you, Howard, carefully read my message(s); ponder; and, then respond with incisive verbage. 2. Did I not write above that I do, indeed, have a copy of the CMA? 3. Did I not ask about the Tipitaka; not, the CMA? 4. I am confused!!! Why reference the CMA??? 5. Was not my question clear? 6. Why does it take so many wasted messages and time to get across a simple, straight forward question???? oOo #104247 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 7:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Ken H (Chuck & Nina), > > --- On Thu, 7/1/10, kenhowardau wrote: > >I am sure you had your reasons but I wonder why you didn't give the usual reference. There is even a separate heading for it in Useful Posts: Kamma3 - black and white/bright and dark, Vitthaara Sutta, AN > > >You could have spared yourself an admonishment. > ... > S: Apologies!! Thx, Ken H - actually, I was racing (trying to catch up) and had CMA out next to me... At least it got you posting, perhaps I should race like this more often:) > > My mother's just arrived, Nina will be glad to hear. Nina, she had a pretty horrific journey out from Heathrow yesterday starting with power cuts for all her village, all the cars and roads snow-bound, so that was the end of her lift. Somehow, amazingly, with her suitcase, she got herself to Heathrow on 3 different trips and a trip across London (fortunately, deserted), a wait at Heathrow for 12 hrs, de-icing of the plane and so on... > > Anwyay, she's here in good spirits now and a great example of courage, patience and good cheer! She made friends for the whole journey too... > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > C: 1. I am sincerely happy your mother arrived safely and is in good spirits. 2. In the future, please do me a favor (favour). Do not multi-task when responding to me. I can wait for an accurate and thoughtful response!!! In the long run, it will save you and me (plus others?) much anguish and time!!! Do you not agree??? as ever, el diablo (in another parallel universe) metta (maitri), Chuck #104248 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? upasaka_howard Hi, Chuck (and Sarah) - In a message dated 1/7/2010 7:17:00 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, dhammasaro@... writes: C: 1. May I gently and softly suggest you, Howard, carefully read my message(s); ponder; and, then respond with incisive verbage. ------------------------------------------------------- I read it carefully, Chuck, and I agreed with you. The CMA is not Tipitaka. ------------------------------------------------------ 2. Did I not write above that I do, indeed, have a copy of the CMA? ----------------------------------------------------- Yes. So? ---------------------------------------------------- 3. Did I not ask about the Tipitaka; not, the CMA? ----------------------------------------------------- Yes, I understood that. This was my point. ------------------------------------------------------- 4. I am confused!!! Why reference the CMA??? ------------------------------------------------------- Sarah referenced it. -------------------------------------------------------- 5. Was not my question clear? ------------------------------------------------------ I thought so. ------------------------------------------------------ 6. Why does it take so many wasted messages and time to get across a simple, straight forward question???? ------------------------------------------------------ That's hard to say. But I do suspect that a relaxed, cordial, and accommodating attitude is always more likely to elict desired responses than is a combative/contentious one. ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104249 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 7:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? dhammasaro Good friend Howard, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Chuck - > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 3:55:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > dhammasaro@... writes: > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > I am sure you had your reasons but I wonder why you didn't give the > usual reference. There is even a separate heading for it in Useful Posts: > Kamma3 - black and white/bright and dark, Vitthaara Sutta, AN > > > > You could have spared yourself an admonishment. > > > > Ken H > > > > C: Are you a psychic? If you are, you fail in this instance!!! > > Over the years since 2001, I have saved and reviewed many, many DSG > messages!!! > > As well as lately, I have reviewed the saved on-line messages, before > asking a question!!! > > FWIW, I try to be very, very thorough, as I was taught!!! > > In my most humbleness, I deeply and sincerely apologize to you for your > apparent continued, displeasure with this ole cantankerous, despicable, > opinionated Texican. > > Das est der bestest ah kin ofer... > > as ever, el diablo (in another parallel universe) > > Chuck > ================================= > Chuck, you are confusing me. :-) Ken had addressed *Sarah*. > > With metta, > Howard > C: 1. Near the top of this message thread it is written, "Hi Chuck." 2. Did you write it? 3. Good friend Ken H was writing to good friend Sarah about admonishment and me, was he not? 4. Good friend Howard, do you observe your name anywhere... anywhere... anywhere on this thread? 5. Good friend Howard, why insert yourself in a message thread which does not address you and you, Howard, the 1984 internet snoop,imply the same of me??? Huh??? 6. My name is at the top, is it not??? 7. Where is your name??? Hmmmm... Shades of the renowned Комитет государстве\ 085;ной безопасност\ 080;, Komitet gosudarstvennoy bezopasnosti are among us, no doubt!!! 8. Good friend friend Ken H is writing to good friend Sarah about me!!! 9. Where are you addressed??? Heh??? 10. Two very mild words to you!!! Buzz off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! as ever, el diablo (fom another parallel universe), I remain metta (maitri), Chuck #104250 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 8:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "While I can't claim right understanding, I can tell you in truth that my breathing-centered meditation is easy and calming and without desire, clinging, or stress. This is not to say that it is hindrance-free. My primary hindrance is sloth & torpor, and I use various means, especially standing meditation, to reduce it's impact..." Scott: How are any of these dhammaa known to be either present or absent without pa~n~naa? This is the familiar sort of meditator account that leaves me with little doubt that meditators have little real sense of what they are actually claiming. In the above it is claimed that despite a lack of right understanding the meditator knows that his meditation is 'without desire, clinging, or stress' (whatever 'stress' might refer to). The meditator also claims to know what 'sloth and torpor' is without right understanding. In the end, this sounds like a very relaxing pastime ('easy and calming') and more akin to yoga than anything else. I again fail to see what is to be recommended - other than the relaxation of course, which we could all enjoy in one way or another. Sincerely, Scott. #104251 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? upasaka_howard Hi, Chuck - In a message dated 1/7/2010 8:00:15 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, dhammasaro@... writes: C: 1. Near the top of this message thread it is written, "Hi Chuck." ------------------------------------------------- Yes. ------------------------------------------------- 2. Did you write it? ----------------------------------------------- Yes. ----------------------------------------------- 3. Good friend Ken H was writing to good friend Sarah about admonishment and me, was he not? ----------------------------------------------- I understood him to have written about Sarah being admonished and that possibly being avoidable by giving a good reference. BTW, Chuck - why so argiumerntative? ------------------------------------------------- 4. Good friend Howard, do you observe your name anywhere... anywhere... anywhere on this thread? --------------------------------------------------- This is a list on which anyone can reply to a post, but I will happily not interact with you if that is your preference. ------------------------------------------------- 5. Good friend Howard, why insert yourself in a message thread which does not address you and you, Howard, the 1984 internet snoop,imply the same of me??? Huh??? -------------------------------------------------- Why do you bother continuing to write "good friend"? ----------------------------------------------------- 6. My name is at the top, is it not??? -------------------------------------------------- I'm through, Chuck. ------------------------------------------------ 7. Where is your name??? Hmmmm... Shades of the renowned Комитет государстве\ 085;ной безопасност\ 080; , Komitet gosudarstvennoy bezopasnosti are among us, no doubt!!! 8. Good friend friend Ken H is writing to good friend Sarah about me!!! 9. Where are you addressed??? Heh??? 10. Two very mild words to you!!! Buzz off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------------------------- For sure!! ----------------------------------------------- as ever, el diablo (fom another parallel universe), I remain metta (maitri), Chuck =========================== Howard #104252 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 8:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? dhammasaro Good friend Howard, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Chuck (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 7:17:00 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > dhammasaro@... writes: > > C: > > 1. May I gently and softly suggest you, Howard, carefully read my > message(s); ponder; and, then respond with incisive verbage. > ------------------------------------------------------- > I read it carefully, Chuck, and I agreed with you. The CMA is not > Tipitaka. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > 2. Did I not write above that I do, indeed, have a copy of the CMA? > ----------------------------------------------------- > Yes. So? > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > 3. Did I not ask about the Tipitaka; not, the CMA? > ----------------------------------------------------- > Yes, I understood that. This was my point. > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > 4. I am confused!!! Why reference the CMA??? > ------------------------------------------------------- > Sarah referenced it. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > 5. Was not my question clear? > ------------------------------------------------------ > I thought so. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > 6. Why does it take so many wasted messages and time > to get across a simple, straight forward question???? > ------------------------------------------------------ > That's hard to say. But I do suspect that a relaxed, cordial, and > accommodating attitude is always more likely to elict desired responses than is > a combative/contentious one. > ================================ > With metta, > Howard > > C: 1. You wrote in part: 6. Why does it take so many wasted messages and time to get across a simple, straight forward question???? ------------------------------------------------------ That's hard to say. But I do suspect that a relaxed, cordial, and accommodating attitude is always more likely to elict desired responses than is a combative/contentious one. ================================ With metta, Howard Sorry, I fail to observe such in my initial message!!! Perhaps your perception is incorrect??? Howard, did I not write to you: Quote: "> 1. May I gently and softly suggest you, Howard, carefully read my > message(s); ponder; and, then respond with incisive verbage." Howard, the above is contentious to you??? If so, please, please do not read nor respond to future messages, okay? Sincere warm thanks for ignoring my future, in your perception, contentious messages. as ever, el diablo (in a parallel universe) metta (maitri), Chuck Management: If you, too, find this message contentious; please, please delete!!! #104253 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 8:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > > >C: For me, it first pa.tipatti (following precepts reinforced with meditation) and, to a lessor degree pariyatti - Tipitaka study. > > > > > > > > However, we all are different; hence, what is applicable to me may well not be applicable to you. > > > .... > > > S: Yes, and I think we use the terms a little differently too.... > > > > > > C: I am not sure what you mean. Please clarify for me. Thanks. > ... > S: I understand pa.tipatti to refer to satipa.t.thaana, moments of right understanding of realities. I understand pariyatti to refer to moments of understanding with concepts of realities as object. For example, during the day there may be many moments of wise reflecting on what we've read and heard about present dhammas. At such moments there is pariyatti, even when no Tipitaka study is involved, although perhaps we can also refer to this as Tipitaka study - sikkha, study, in a deeper sense with understanding and awareness at this moment. > > (You may like to look at the section "pariyatti, patipatti, pativedha" in Useful Posts if you have time.) > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > C: As good friend Howard just smeared me as being contentious, I shall make no further comment, at the present!!! peace... metta (maitri), Chuck Management: If you find my response as distasteful; please, please delete!!! #104254 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Alex & all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > I would have to make a special study for this and no time now. I do > > not believe there is a puase between maggacitta and phalacitta. The > > maggacitta is such powerful kamma that its vipaaka follows in the > > same process. > ... > S: CMA, p.177 > > 'cattaaro pana magg'uppaada ekacittakkha.nikaa. Tato para.m dve tii.ni phalacittaani yathaaraha.m uppajjanti. Tato para.m bhavangapaato.' > > "The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment. Thereafter, two or three occasions of fruition consciousness arise according to the case. Then comes subsidence into the life-continuum." > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > Dear Sarah, Nina, all. The above seems to contradict the suttas that talk about saddhanusarin and dhammanusarin existing for far longer than few mind moments. "...This is called an individual who is a Dhamma-follower.9 Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness." ...his is called an individual who is a conviction-follower. Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. "Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html With metta, Alex #104255 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 5:29 pm Subject: Re: Parajika in the Vinaya Pitaka. Was: Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > > I don't think anyone answered this and you probably won't like my comments:-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > As pointed out above, there are four Parajika offenses in the Vinaya Pitaka. > > > > I have three questions: > > > > 1. Have you ever given an illegal copy of a program, etc. to a bhikkhu? > > > > 2. Has a bhikkhu ever give you an illegal copy of a program, etc? > > > > 3. Is that stealing? A Parajika offense? > ... > S: Interesting points to raise and quotes. > > Whether it is stealing or not will of course depend on the intention and knowledge involved. > > I think the most important thing is to understand our own minds and intentions, rather than be too concerned about the others' intentions and sila. > > Do you have further ideas yourself? > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > C: At the risk of yet again being accused of being "contentious" I courteously and softly ask you, good friend Sarah, why you were not responsive to my three simple questions? 1. Were they not clear? 2. Were they too complicated? Please advise. I will gladly try to re-phrase. peace... as ever, el diablo, I remain (on another parallel universe) metta (maitri), Chuck Management: if you find this message distasteful; please, please delete. #104256 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 6:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. truth_aerator Dear Scott, Do you meditate? If not, then how can you instruct others on how to meditate? It is like a person who was never in wilderness teaching how to survive in wilderness and 'teaching' the people who were there on how to actually do it. With metta, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > Regarding: > > H: "While I can't claim right understanding, I can tell you in truth that my breathing-centered meditation is easy and calming and without desire, clinging, or stress. This is not to say that it is hindrance-free. My primary hindrance is sloth & torpor, and I use various means, especially standing meditation, to reduce it's impact..." > > Scott: How are any of these dhammaa known to be either present or absent without pa~n~naa? This is the familiar sort of meditator account that leaves me with little doubt that meditators have little real sense of what they are actually claiming. > > In the above it is claimed that despite a lack of right understanding the meditator knows that his meditation is 'without desire, clinging, or stress' (whatever 'stress' might refer to). The meditator also claims to know what 'sloth and torpor' is without right understanding. > > In the end, this sounds like a very relaxing pastime ('easy and calming') and more akin to yoga than anything else. I again fail to see what is to be recommended - other than the relaxation of course, which we could all enjoy in one way or another. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #104257 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 7:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "Do you meditate? If not, then how can you instruct others on how to meditate? It is like a person who was never in wilderness teaching how to survive in wilderness and 'teaching' the people who were there on how to actually do it." Scott: With respect, it is my considered opinion that the 'meditators' on the list who preach and defend and advocate 'meditation' a) don't understand it, b) are only doing yoga and, c) think to tell others that it is really important to do yoga as well. One normally doesn't take 'instruction' from those who don't know anything about a given subject. I've not sought to instruct anyone that I'm aware of. I merely give an opinion about the apparent lack of understanding demonstrated by 'meditators' on the list. Please direct any response to others since I don't wish to enter a discussion about this with you. Sincerely, Scott. #104258 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 7:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. dhammasaro Good friend Scott, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > ... snip > > Scott: With respect, it is my considered opinion that the 'meditators' on the list who preach and defend and advocate 'meditation' a) don't understand it, From Chuck: In my minority experience, mostly agree... b) are only doing yoga and, From Chuck: In my minority experience, mostly agree... c) think to tell others that it is really important to do yoga as well. From Chuck: In my minority experience, many Thai monks teach the same. I do not know as many monks from Burma or Sri Lanka to make any comment! One normally doesn't take 'instruction' from those who don't know anything about a given subject. From Chuck: Unfortunately, too, too many of us do not know enough to discern the difference!!! > > ... snip > > Please direct any response to others since I don't wish to enter a discussion about this with you. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > From Chuck: Yes, good friend Scott, unfortunately, too, too many on this list do not peruse what is writtened!!! Too, too many quickly respond to what they erroneously perceive what was written without perusing and pondering before providing an excellent considered response!!! peace to all... metta (maitri), Chuck Management: If you, in your "Absolute Wisdom", deem this message as dastardly; please, please delete!!! #104260 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 8:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Scott, > > > So how do you meditate? How should proper meditation (bhavana) be done? How does one develop samma-sati and samma-samadhi? > > > Best wishes, > > Alex > C: What part of the following quote do you not understand? By Scott: "I've not sought to instruct anyone that I'm aware of. I merely give an opinion about the apparent lack of understanding demonstrated by 'meditators' on the list. Please direct any response to others since I don't wish to enter a discussion about this with you. Sincerely, Scott." .................................. Good friend Alex, Why the continued harassment to our good friend Scott? He clearly wrote a clear answer!!! Two words to you: Buzz off!!! as ever, el diablo (from another parallel universe) metta (maitri), Chuck Management: If you find this message dastardly, please, please delete!!! #104261 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 10:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. truth_aerator Hello Charles, all, I am sorry if my reply has offended anyone. The thing is that this is not the first time someone has said that "you are doing it all wrong." It is very nice when someone points out my fault. Great. I'd like to hear a convincing justification of a more correct development (bhavana). I would love to increase knowledge, wisdom and understanding. As I've said before, I want to learn, I don't wont to argue for argument's sake. So when I try to ask something along the lines of "Ok. So how to do it right?" I get some sort of evasive and cynical answers or refusal to answer. This doesn't seem nice at all. If you are going to say "you are wrong", then have the courtesy to back it up. I'd love to get correct pointers on bhavana, from the suttas. Not some "you can't do it, nothing can be done" sort of answers. How do you think such phrases condition the subconsciousness? With best wishes, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Alex, et al > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Dear Scott, > > > > > > So how do you meditate? How should proper meditation (bhavana) be done? How does one develop samma-sati and samma-samadhi? > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Alex > > > > > > C: What part of the following quote do you not understand? > > By Scott: > > "I've not sought to instruct anyone that I'm aware of. I merely give an opinion about the apparent lack of understanding demonstrated by 'meditators' on the list. > > Please direct any response to others since I don't wish to enter a discussion about this with you. > > Sincerely, > > Scott." > .................................. > > > Good friend Alex, > > Why the continued harassment to our good friend Scott? > > He clearly wrote a clear answer!!! > > Two words to you: Buzz off!!! > > as ever, el diablo (from another parallel universe) > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > > Management: If you find this message dastardly, please, please delete!!! > #104262 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. scottduncan2 Dear Chuck, Regarding: C: "In my minority experience, mostly agree...In my minority experience, mostly agree...In my minority experience, many Thai monks teach the same. I do not know as many monks from Burma or Sri Lanka to make any comment!...Unfortunately, too, too many of us do not know enough to discern the difference!!!" Scott: Thank you for your reply. Sincerely, Scott. #104263 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 12:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 3:29:27 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > I am sure you had your reasons but I wonder why you didn't give the usual > reference. There is even a separate heading for it in Useful Posts: Kamma3 > - black and white/bright and dark, Vitthaara Sutta, AN > =============================== > Thanks for this, Ken. I suspected it was in a sutta. Does anyone have > access to the particular sutta? (The "Vitthara Sutta" given on ATI is a > different one.) > ---------- Hi Howard, I don't have the reference, but if you look at message 13179 you will find Suan's full translation of the sutta. Suan also gives a link to where the reference would have been found, but the link has expired. Ken H #104264 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 12:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. ashkenn2k Dear Howard >>----------- - --------- --------- --------- --------- ------ > >KO: At the moment when panna arise, there is no hindrances, no >excitement, not forgetful, not distracted. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- >That's nice, but so what? And when one becomes an arahant nothing >further is required. And when one becomes a stream entrant that is a major >beginning. and when one remains a worldling, that's that. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- KO: it is not so what, it is what we are doing that is the so what. It takes panna to be enlighted and not mindfulness. >>=========== = ========= ===== > >KO: Mindfulness always arise with panna, clarify always arise with panna >and calm always arise with panna. And when panna becomes keener, it is >able to understand the sublte characteristic of dhamma. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- >Mindfulness always arises with pa~n~na? Are you certain you don't mean >the converse? In any case, neither arises randomly. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- KO: Yes mindfulness always arises with panna but panna does not always arise with mindfulness. Mindfulness always arises with kusala cittas (like during dana or metta) with or without panna. Cheers Ken O #104265 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 11:59 pm Subject: Not Resisting even Violent Fear! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Giving up everything, one is Calmed! The Blessed Buddha once summarized his own mental development like this: Fear comes from embracing violence. Looking at people quarrelling I became agitated. Seeing people floundering, like fish floundering when hauled out of water, seeing them opposing others, made fear and consternation arise in me! The world was without safety anywhere, in all quarters conflict tossed about. Yet I wanted to find a safe peaceful dwelling-place for myself, I could not... Dissatisfied, seeing opposition itself, I realized that the barb is here within, hard to see, not out there in the world, but in here nestling deep in the mind. Injured by this barb, one runs in all directions. Having pulled that barb out, one neither runs, nor stands still... That relief requires purifying training: One should be truthful, and neither mischievous, nor deceiving, rid of gossip! One should overcome lethargy and laziness, be fully aware, and not negligent. One should not bestow affection upon any external form, & give up all pride over any internal form. Neither longing back for the past, nor liking any new, one will not grieve, when something is vanishing. One should give up whatever fascination attaching to a given object. Greed is like a great flood. Desire is like the current. Sense objects are like the shifting tides. Sense pleasure is like vast stretches of deep entrapping mud, which is very hard to cross over.. Not deviating from the Dhamma, crossing by that truth, the sage, a recluse, comes to stand safe on high ground. Having given up everything, he is calmed! Sutta-Nipata 935-946 Edited excerpt. <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104266 From: Vince Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 1:47 am Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > Good, but do go slowly, little by little. You could take a few > sentences and then discuss. I will do in that way, thanks. Anyway, to situate better my self, also I will be grateful to know if there is some place in the Abhidhamma literature able to explain these easy doubts, as the non-existence of Seeing while there is Seeing in another person. I mean, at least to me, the non-existence of Seeing only can have a final sense if we forget anatta. If we forget anatta then obviously this world becomes a property of "MY mind", and in this scenery the Seeing it's non-existent while there is not-Seeing "for me". Do you know if there is some part in the Abhidhamma literature clarifying anatta in a similar line?. > The Buddha taught that seeing is anatta and through the development > of understanding the truth can be known very, very gradually. well, Suttas show examples of attainment of anatta in gradual and sudden ways. Because that's not predictable!!. Sudden ones are not rare, they are many: Usabha the thera, Ananda, Mahanama Thera, Sariputra, Prince Vitasoka, Bhagu Thera,Siha Theri, Patacara Theri, etc.. > We have to investigate what seeing is, not the seeing of someone > else, this is of no interest. > How could we know about someone else's cittas. Understanding can be > developed only of seeing arising in oneself. at one side I understand what you says, In a similar way, if we want to understand what is water, we cannot embrace the whole ocean but we need a glass, a bottle or a drop. However, it doesn't mean the ocean didn't exists. This world is plenty of water and it is everywhere. Somebody can say the ocean is not of interest because we cannot embrace it and studying it. However, the ocean also is really useful to know what is water. Don't you agree? You told me in the Abhidhamma one must be focused in "my water" to know what is water. And I understand this. However, I miss the Abhidhamma literature don't teach nothing about the whole ocean. Is there not mention of anatta regarding the plurality of individualities, the role of citta in that plurality, etc..?. I'm reading about the anatta nature of dhammas but I cannot find about how anatta of dhammas conforms a whole anatta-reality, so what happens with the seeing of you, me, all... this -self architecture. I think that's a very important point. In example, many people think when they die it would be a non-existence, and in example the Seeing would stop forever, despite our body-and-mind arises incessantly because dependent origination!!! Abbhidhamma philosophy don't clarify these things in some place? best wishes, Vince. #104267 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 1:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? sarahprocter... Dear Chuck & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > 1. I am sincerely happy your mother arrived safely and is in good spirits. > > 2. In the future, please do me a favor (favour). Do not multi-task when responding to me. I can wait for an accurate and thoughtful response!!! ... S: I believed (and believe) it was "an accurate and thoughtful response", although it would have been helpful to have also quoted from a sutta, I agree. Previously you had mentioned with some distress that you had left your copy of CMA in the States. "What a bummer" were, as I recall, your words. From this, I assumed that you had as much confidence as many others of us do in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha as being an accurate and traditionally accepted Theravada summary of the Abhidhamma. Indeed, traditionally Burmese bhikkhus read, memorise and recite this text I believe, in preference to all others. I thought the summary I gave you from the guide elaborating on the text itself was helpful for those who needed extra detail. When we write here, we write to share with everyone and anyone who may benefit. Different people have different ideas about what they believe to be authoritative. For me, anything from the Tipitaka itself or the ancient commentaries and Abhidhammattha Sangaha is authoritative. Now I appreciate that when you mention the Tipitaka, if it's not a sutta, a text from the Vinaya or the Abhidhamma itself - i.e. no Jataka or Dhammapada stories, no Ab.Sangaha, no ancient commentaries, you'd rather not receive a reply at all. I have no problem with this and appreciate your letting me know. > In the long run, it will save you and me (plus others?) much anguish and time!!! > > Do you not agree??? ... S: For me, it's never any anguish to try to assist. If someone doesn't like the offering for any reason, that's fine too. The intention was to help and that was all that mattered and now it's all gone. Is there any awareness now? Is the citta kusala or akusala? What are the realities at this moment? These are the questions I'm interested in. Again, I'm sorry not to have met your expectations and will be more cautious about responding to your questions as you advise. Peace and Metta Sarah ======= #104268 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 3:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? dhammasaro Good friend Sarah et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Chuck & all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > ... snip > > S: I believed (and believe) it was "an accurate and thoughtful response", although it would have been helpful to have also quoted from a sutta, I agree. > > C: Please just read the simple question. I simply asked for a Tipitaka (Vinaya, Sutta, Abhidhamma) reference not a commentary reference. If I wanted a commentary reference I would so ask. I specifically need a Tipitaka reference. Sarah: > Previously you had mentioned with some distress that you had left your copy of CMA in the States. "What a bummer" were, as I recall, your words. From this, I assumed that you had as much confidence as many others of us do in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha as being an accurate and traditionally accepted Theravada summary of the Abhidhamma. Indeed, traditionally Burmese bhikkhus read, memorise and recite this text I believe, in preference to all others. > > > C: The CMA is on-line. The CMA is not germane to this discussion. I simply need a Tipitaka reference. > > ... snip > >Sarah: > Again, I'm sorry not to have met your expectations... > > > C: It is irrelevant if you do or do not meet my expectations. Sarah: ...and will be more cautious about responding to your questions as you advise. C: Warm thanks. It will stop needless clarifying messages. ... snip peace... metta (maitri), Chuck Management: If you find this message distasteful please, please delete. #104269 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Read Original Article was: Sangha politics in Thailand dhammasaro Good friend Ken O, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Sorry Chuck > > No disrespect, I was surprised it was re-surfaced by Sarah after so many weeks ago. Too many opinions in the articule and I leave such matters to kamma to decide. I am more incline to discuss with people on nama and rupa. I seek your understanding on this. thanks > > > Cheers > Ken O > C: Warm thanks for responding. The reason I asked the questions are it appears to me; (1) no one addressed the initial message nor (2) read the article. Much opinions written; but, none were germane to the initial message and article. That was what I was trying to demonstrate - another failure to properly address the initial message. Perhaps, I missed the point of the initial message. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck Management: If you find this message distasteful; please delete. .... snip > > > >C: > > > >1. Can we bring this important thread back to original topic? > > > >2. Did you carefully peruse the article? > > > >3. Do you agree with all of the article? Why? > > > >4. Do you only agree with parts of the article? What parts? Why? > > > >5: In case you did not read the article, please do so... > > > >http://wyaryan. blogspot. com/2009/ 10/buddhist- treatment- of-women- criticized. html > > > >Sincere warm thanks... > > > >as ever, el diablo (in another parallel universe) > > > >metta (maitri), > > > >Chuck > > #104270 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Sarah, et al > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > Dear Chuck, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > > > > >C: For me, it first pa.tipatti (following precepts reinforced with meditation) and, to a lessor degree pariyatti - Tipitaka study. > > > > > > > > > > However, we all are different; hence, what is applicable to me may well not be applicable to you. > > > > .... > > > > > > > S: Yes, and I think we use the terms a little differently too.... C: Yes, so I observe. Well as a mere puthujjana, I usually write in the mundane vernacular of the sutta-pitaka rather than the language one uses here. Much of what is written on this DSG, I can not find in my Pali references. Or, if found, does not correlate. Alas... > > > C: I am not sure what you mean. Please clarify for me. Thanks. > > ... > > S: I understand pa.tipatti to refer to satipa.t.thaana, moments of right understanding of realities. I understand pariyatti to refer to moments of understanding with concepts of realities as object. For example, during the day there may be many moments of wise reflecting on what we've read and heard about present dhammas. At such moments there is pariyatti, even when no Tipitaka study is involved, although perhaps we can also refer to this as Tipitaka study - sikkha, study, in a deeper sense with understanding and awareness at this moment. > > > > (You may like to look at the section "pariyatti, patipatti, pativedha" in Useful Posts if you have time.) > > C: 1. I simply use the words from the Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka: Patipatti - practice, or 'pursuance' of the teaching as distinquished from the mere theoretical knowledge of its wording (pariyatti, q.v.). etc. 2. Yes, I have spent much time there perusing the 36 threads. Unfortunately, many if not most, I do not understand. Many seem off-topic; hence, often I feel I am wasting my time there. > ... snip > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck Management: If you find my response as distasteful; please, please delete!!! #104271 From: Dinesh Kularathne Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 4:57 am Subject: Noble Search & Ignoble Search dinesh.kular... "Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death.... sorrow... defilement. "And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth. "And what may be said to be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children... men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search. "And what is the noble search? There is the case where a person, himself being subject to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeks the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Himself being subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeks the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, undefiled, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. This is the noble search. "I, too, monks, before my Awakening, when I was an un-awakened bodhisatta, being subject myself to birth, sought what was likewise subject to birth. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, I sought [happiness in] what was likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement. The thought occurred to me, 'Why do I, being subject myself to birth, seek what is likewise subject to birth? Being subject myself to aging.... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, why do I seek what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement? What if I, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, were to seek the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding? What if I, being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, were to seek the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less,, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding?' - Ariyapariyesana Sutta #104272 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. dhammasaro Good friend Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Charles, all, > > I am sorry if my reply has offended anyone. The thing is that this is not the first time someone has said that "you are doing it all wrong." > > It is very nice when someone points out my fault. Great. I'd like to > hear a convincing justification of a more correct development (bhavana). I would love to increase knowledge, wisdom and understanding. As I've said before, I want to learn, I don't wont to argue for argument's sake. > > So when I try to ask something along the lines of "Ok. So how to do it right?" I get some sort of evasive and cynical answers or refusal to answer. This doesn't seem nice at all. If you are going to say "you are wrong", then have the courtesy to back it up. > > > I'd love to get correct pointers on bhavana, from the suttas. Not some "you can't do it, nothing can be done" sort of answers. How do you think such phrases condition the subconsciousness? > > With best wishes, > > Alex > > C: Sigh... no comment. > ... snip peace man... metta (maitri), Chuck #104273 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 5:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. dhammasaro Good friends Howard and Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > Regarding: > > H: "While I can't claim right understanding, I can tell you in truth that my breathing-centered meditation is easy and calming and without desire, clinging, or stress. This is not to say that it is hindrance-free. My primary hindrance is sloth & torpor, and I use various means, especially standing meditation, to reduce it's impact..." > > Scott: How are any of these dhammaa known to be either present or absent without pa~n~naa? This is the familiar sort of meditator account that leaves me with little doubt that meditators have little real sense of what they are actually claiming. > > In the above it is claimed that despite a lack of right understanding the meditator knows that his meditation is 'without desire, clinging, or stress' (whatever 'stress' might refer to). The meditator also claims to know what 'sloth and torpor' is without right understanding. > > In the end, this sounds like a very relaxing pastime ('easy and calming') and more akin to yoga than anything else. I again fail to see what is to be recommended - other than the relaxation of course, which we could all enjoy in one way or another. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > C: If I may interject... 1. The late, Thai ajahn Buddhadassa taught there are two kinds of language - Everyday mundane language and Dhamma language. As a mere puthujjana, I write in the everyday language. However, most active participants here are ariya-puggala and, hence, write in the Dhamma language. 2. As I was taught, it matters not whether ones practice is completely correct; it is the intention and consistent practice which is important. In time, through persistence, complete correct practice will evolve. 3. One can recite the Tipitaka; but, with no practice... where is one? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck Management: If you find this message distasteful; please, please delete. #104274 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 8:01 am Subject: Re: Sangha politics in Thailand dhammasaro Good friend Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi all, > > A short quote follows, but the whole article is worth reading, IMO. > > Thai Sangha Treats Women as > Untouchables > A > Buddhist scholar from England last week (early Oct) accused Theravada > Buddhists in Thailand of being "incredibly uninterested" in studying the > words of the Buddha, and said the "most pernicious and dangerous" effect of > this neglect is "the scornful treatment of women." Richard Gombrich, founder > and president of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies, said the Thai > Sangha "had taken the extremely retrograde step" of not allowing monks to > take anything from a woman's hand, a prohibition neither justified by > Buddhist texts nor proscribed even in Sri Lanka where Theravada is also the > tradition. > > from > > http://wyaryan.blogspot.com/2009/10/buddhist-treatment-of-women-criticized.html > > Cheers > > > Herman > > C: 1. Did you read the complete article? 2. Do you completely agree with the article? 3a. If not, what parts do you disagree? 3b. Why? 4. What is your opinion about the author's knowledge of Buddhism? 5. In your opinion, are the author's credentials sufficient to pass judgment on Buddhism as practiced in Thailand? Warm thanks for helping me understand your purpose in initiating this thread. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck Management: If you find this distasteful; please, please delete. #104275 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Parajika in the Vinaya Pitaka. Was: Angry Monks sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, [Thank you for posting your very nice pic with your son in the DSG photo album] --- On Fri, 8/1/10, charlest wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, "charlest" wrote: > > As pointed out above, there are four Parajika offenses in the Vinaya Pitaka. > > > > I have three questions: > > > > 1. Have you ever given an illegal copy of a program, etc. to a bhikkhu? > > > > 2. Has a bhikkhu ever give you an illegal copy of a program, etc? > > > > 3. Is that stealing? A Parajika offense? > ... > S: Interesting points to raise and quotes. > > Whether it is stealing or not will of course depend on the intention and knowledge involved. > > I think the most important thing is to understand our own minds and intentions, rather than be too concerned about the others' intentions and sila. ... >C: At the risk of yet again being accused of being "contentious" I courteously and softly ask you, good friend Sarah, why you were not responsive to my three simple questions? ... S: I was only interested in answering the third question which I did, I thought. ... >1. Were they not clear? >2. Were they too complicated? ... S: I wasn't interested in discussing my personal experiences and didn't see them as relevant, but the answer would be "no" to 1) and 2) above. ... Metta Sarah ======== #104276 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 11:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'dhamma' in Theravada abhidhamma and Nagarjuna sarahprocter... Dear Dhammadipa, Welcome to DSG! --- On Wed, 6/1/10, Dhammadipa wrote: >. That's why Dhammasanghani has to go with patthana to understand that nothing in independent by themselves. even citta and cetasika they are alway together in their arising and ceasing.... but when it comes to dhamma as the ultimate then I am a bit confused.... (I am not an expert in Abhidhamma, so I am happy to be corrected) ... S: All namas and rupas are classified as paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. Nibbana is included as a nama - the unconditioned nama. Namas and rupas (unlike concepts) can be directly known, directly understood. For example, hardness is experienced through the body-sense and can be directly known at this moment of touch. This is why it is a paramattha dhamma. As you are interested in comparing Nagarjuna and Theravada, you may like to look at these past save messages under "Nagarjuna" in 'Useful Posts' in the files section: Nagarjuna 27999, 35348, 37082, 70566, 77152, 94398 (You'll either need to key in the numbers in the search # or else go to "U.P." and click on the highlighted numbers). I'll look forward to reading your further discussions. Metta Sarah p.s Everyone, pls make it clear who you are addressing at the top of your reply and sign off with your 'used' or real name. ========= #104277 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 11:42 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, Loving-kindness can be extended to anybody, also to people whom we do not know, whom we pass on the street. We tend to be partial, we want to be kind only to people we like, but that is a selfish attitude. When there is true loving-kindness there is impartiality as well. We tend to think of others mostly with akusala citta, with cittas rooted in attachment or aversion. When we learn, however, what loving- kindness is, there can be conditions for wholesome thoughts instead, and then there is calm. Calm can naturally arise when there are the right conditions. When one tries very hard to have thoughts of loving- kindness in order to induce calm there is attachment instead of true calm which has to be wholesome. Thus, this is not the way to develop the meditation subject of loving-kindness. Not all meditation subjects are suitable for everybody. There are meditation subjects on corpses in different stages of decay, but for some people such a subject can condition aversion instead of calm. Recollection on Death is a meditation subject which can condition calm in daily life. We are confronted with death time and again, and instead of sadness we can reflect with kusala citta on the impermanence of life. We can be reminded that even at this moment our body is subject to decay, constituted as it is by physical phenomena, elements, which arise and then fall away. In the ultimate sense death is not different from what occurs at this moment. Is it necessary to develop calm before one develops insight? Some people believe that when the mind is calm first, it will be easier to develop insight afterwards. It should be remembered that tranquil meditation and insight meditation have each a different aim and a different way of development. Tranquil meditation has as its aim to be free from seeing, hearing and the other sense impressions, in order to subdue clinging to sense objects. Insight meditation is the development of direct understanding of all realities of daily life: of seeing, hearing and the other sense impressions, of sense objects and also of the defilements arising on account of them. In this way the wrong view of self and all other defilements can be completely eradicated. ***** Nina. #104278 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 12:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. scottduncan2 Dear Charles, Regarding: C: "...However, most active participants here are ariya-puggala and, hence, write in the Dhamma language...Management: If you find this message distasteful; please, please delete." Scott: While I Totally Dig the Crushing Irony in the above - so cool the way you suggest that contributors are like some of those fancy stream-enterers or once-returners or whatever but like really mean to suggest thereby and through such an amazingly clever literary juxtaposition that contributors here are actually a bunch of annoying, know-it-all wankers - I don't think anyone's going to delete your messages. And speaking of irony, I suppose - you know, thinking more about it and stuff - that you could always try harder to be like even more controversial. But these management guys here totally drive me crazy - they never seem to get rid of people who simply just have axes to grind or who don't know how to get on well in cyber-space or are unable to take a bit of gentle correction. I mean, I'm still here and I bet this post doesn't get deleted. Nah, carry on, man. You'll be here for a long time... ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #104279 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 1:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding ashkenn2k Dear Alex >Samatha clears the view, and panna actually sees and extirpates the defilements. KO: It is not the function of samatha to clear view, samatha is just concentration on an object. It is panna that clear view, removing the darkness that blind us from the characteristics of dhamma. >The question is about: >a) the minimum requirement of samatha for stream and arhatship. >b) the required amount of samatha FOR US. KO: There is no minimun requirement. Whatever minimun requirement we have, honestly to me is our own sets of requirement. No offense meant, this is to me, wishful thinking. It got nothing to do with satipatthana. Whenever panna arise, samatha arise but not the other way round. Whenever panna arise, there is samatha, there is satipatthana. Ken O #104280 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 9:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/7/2010 4:48:37 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- >Mindfulness always arises with pa~n~na? Are you certain you don't mean >the converse? In any case, neither arises randomly. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- KO: Yes mindfulness always arises with panna but panna does not always arise with mindfulness. Mindfulness always arises with kusala cittas (like during dana or metta) with or without panna. ================================ There was an ambiguity to the language, and I misread you. (To clarify: "mindfulness always arises with panna" could mean that mindfulness always brings wisdom along with it, which is what thought you meant, whereas you actually meant the opposite! I think we actually agree on this. Whenever there is wisdom, there must also be mindfulness also in effect. However there can be mindfulness in effect with there not yet being wisdom. If that is what you mean, then we agree. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104281 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 3:00 pm Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 8-jan-2010, om 2:47 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Anyway, to situate better my self, also I will be grateful to know if > there is some place in the Abhidhamma literature able to explain these > easy doubts, as the non-existence of Seeing while there is Seeing in > another person. > > I mean, at least to me, the non-existence of Seeing only can have a > final sense if we forget anatta. If we forget anatta then obviously > this world becomes a property of "MY mind", and in this scenery > the Seeing it's non-existent while there is not-Seeing "for me". > > Do you know if there is some part in the Abhidhamma literature > clarifying anatta in a similar line?. --------- N: To me, the above is thinking of concepts of seeing, of non- existent, of seeing in the other person. Thinking is naama and it is conditioned. The Abidhamma explains paramattha dhammas as different from concepts. It explains what can be directly experienced. We can only 'think' of the seeing in someone else, but this cannot be directly experienced. -------- >> ""The Buddha taught that seeing is anatta and through the >> development >> ""of understanding the truth can be known very, very gradually. > > V: well, Suttas show examples of attainment of anatta in gradual and > sudden ways. Because that's not predictable!!. Sudden ones are not > rare, they are many: Usabha the thera, Ananda, Mahanama Thera, > Sariputra, Prince Vitasoka, Bhagu Thera,Siha Theri, Patacara Theri, > etc.. ------- N: You mention some great disciples in the Buddha's time. They had already accumulated understanding for aeons. -------- >> "We have to investigate what seeing is, not the seeing of someone >> "else, this is of no interest. >> "How could we know about someone else's cittas. Understanding can be >> "developed only of seeing arising in oneself. > > V: at one side I understand what you says, In a similar way, if we > want > to understand what is water, we cannot embrace the whole ocean but we > need a glass, a bottle or a drop. > However, the ocean also is really useful to know what is water. > Don't you agree? > > You told me in the Abhidhamma one must be focused in "my water" to > know what is water. And I understand this. However, I miss the > Abhidhamma literature don't teach nothing about the whole ocean. > Is there not mention of anatta regarding the plurality of > individualities, the role of citta in that plurality, etc..?. -------- N: It teaches us about cittas arising in processes, but one at a time can be investigated. One characteristic can be known at a time. The Abhidhamma points to practice. Therefore I am disinclined to call it a philosophy. Plurality of individuals, the whole of the ocean: all concepts of a whole. --------- > > V:I'm reading about the anatta nature of dhammas but I cannot find > about > how anatta of dhammas conforms a whole anatta-reality, so what happens > with the seeing of you, me, all... this -self architecture. ------ N: Mere dhammas arising from conditions and immediately falling away. -------- > > V:I think that's a very important point. In example, many people think > when they die it would be a non-existence, and in example the Seeing > would stop forever, despite our body-and-mind arises incessantly > because dependent origination!!! -------- N: Each moment new naamas and ruupas arise but these are conditioned also by past factors. At death there is no annihilation, but there is no self who travels from the past life to the following life. ---------- > > V:Abhidhamma philosophy don't clarify these things in some place? ------- N: All over it explains that what you take for person or self are citta, cetasika and ruupa. Dhammas condition dhammas, there is no place for a person. Quote from the Tiika to Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 298. This chapter deals with the Dependent Origination. We read: < Thus with its causes this arises; it is painful, impermanent, unlasting, fickle and changeable. States [dhammas] originate from [other] states as causes; no self exists here, nor another. As causes, constituents, conditions, it is states that produce states. And the Buddha taught the Dhamma for cessation of [all] causes. When causes have been made to cease, the round, being cut, revolves no more; So here the life of purity [brahmacariya] exists to make a [final] end of pain. Finding no being, there is neither eternity nor annihilation. ---------- Tiika as to the last phrase: (satte ca nupalabbhante, nevucchedo na sassatanti), the Tiika explains that mere dhammas are produced which are dependent on a cause, and hence no being is to be found. When one believes in annihilation, one does not see that there is an uninterrupted production of phenomena. One does not see that the dying-consciousness is immediately succeeded by rebirth-consciousness. When one believes in eternalism, one does not see the cessation of phenomena arising in succession; one does not see that there is no being who travels from the past life to the present life. So long as there is clinging to the idea of self, there can be annihilation belief or eternity belief. ------------- Conclusion: One can learn that whatever arises because of conditions, is a mere dhamma, it does not come from anywhere nor does it go anywhere. No being, no person is to be found. This teaching is from beginning to the end in the Abhidhamma. The texts are not just from reading and considering, they point to the practice: realizing the truth of anattaa. **** Nina. #104282 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 3:23 pm Subject: Re: On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > Dear Alex > >Samatha clears the view, and panna actually sees and extirpates the >defilements. > > KO: It is not the function of samatha to clear view, samatha is >just >concentration on an object. It is panna that clear >view, removing the >darkness that blind us from the characteristics >of dhamma. As to samadhi: ""Singleness of mind is concentration, friend Visakha; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development." - MN44 Note: 4 satipatthanas are its theme (nimitta)! So it is much more than "simple one pointedness on who knows what" . Simple one pointedness is not beneficial as even snipers and cats waiting for the mouse have it. "Precisely this noble eightfold path right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration: This, friend Visakha, is the way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html Note: Self identification is as I understand it sakkayaditthi. A view that is eliminated at stream entry path. If we take the entire quote, it shows that not only samma-ditthi but samma-sati and samma-samadhi are required for stream entry. Thank you for your reply. With metta, Alex #104283 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 4:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding ashkenn2k Dear Alex We must remember there is no samma sati or samma samadhi without samma ditthi. Mindulness as I wrote to Howard does not always arise with panna but during panna, mindfulness always arise. >As to samadhi: >""Singleness of mind is concentration, friend Visakha; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development. " - MN44 > >Note: 4 satipatthanas are its theme (nimitta)! So it is much more than "simple one pointedness on who knows what" . Simple one pointedness is not beneficial as even snipers and cats waiting for the mouse have it. KO: I use B Bodhi translation to give another view of the pali When it was said "<> - that is function of samatha <> - definitely because concentration and mindfulness arise with panna. Without strong mindfulness there is no jhanas, and without panna there is no strong mindfulness. Mindfulness is only strengthened with panna just like the status of the minister (mindfulness) is increased with the prince (panna) standing beside the minister as compare to the minister without a prince. <> - if there is no panna, there wouldn't be right striving, much less talk about development or cultivation of such states. It is panna that matters and not concentration. Only with panna sati will be strengthened, only with panna concentration will increase, and the concentration is help with the arisen of the equanimty and tranquility cetasikas. People always talk about concentration as a practise but forget that a lot of suttas are talking about right view, senses, elements, aggregates, D.O. etc. Personally to me, its seem like there must be an action of the body then it is call practise. Even in MN44, there are identity view, underlying tendencies, feelings, they seem to be have less importance than concentration or become subordinate to concentration. Ken O #104284 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 6:50 pm Subject: Re: Parajika in the Vinaya Pitaka. Was: Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > > [Thank you for posting your very nice pic with your son in the DSG photo album] > > --- On Fri, 8/1/10, charlest wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, "charlest" wrote: > > > As pointed out above, there are four Parajika offenses in the Vinaya Pitaka. > > > > > > I have three questions: > > > > > > 1. Have you ever given an illegal copy of a program, etc. to a bhikkhu? > > > > > > 2. Has a bhikkhu ever give you an illegal copy of a program, etc? > > > > > > 3. Is that stealing? A Parajika offense? > > ... > > S: Interesting points to raise and quotes. > > > > Whether it is stealing or not will of course depend on the intention and knowledge involved. > > > > I think the most important thing is to understand our own minds and intentions, rather than be too concerned about the others' intentions and sila. > ... > >C: At the risk of yet again being accused of being "contentious" I courteously and softly ask you, good friend Sarah, why you were not responsive to my three simple questions? > ... > S: I was only interested in answering the third question which I did, I thought. > ... > >1. Were they not clear? > > >2. Were they too complicated? > ... > S: I wasn't interested in discussing my personal experiences and didn't see them as relevant, but the answer would be "no" to 1) and 2) above. > ... > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > C: The third question was and is: 3. Is that stealing? A Parajika offense? I do not understand. [bummers] How can you answer question three by itself? I guess I am just too, too stupid... Is what stealing????????????????? What is stolen??????????????????? I certainly wish I wuz az smart az u... alas, iam knot!!! I could not venture an answer to: "3. Is that stealing? A Parajika offense?" sigh.................... #104285 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 7:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. dhammasaro Good friend Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Charles, > > Regarding: > > C: "...However, most active participants here are ariya-puggala and, hence, write in the Dhamma language...Management: If you find this message distasteful; please, please delete." > > Scott: While I Totally Dig the Crushing Irony in the above - so cool the way you suggest that contributors are like some of those fancy stream-enterers or once-returners or whatever but like really mean to suggest thereby and through such an amazingly clever literary juxtaposition that contributors here are actually a bunch of annoying, know-it-all wankers - I don't think anyone's going to delete your messages. > > And speaking of irony, I suppose - you know, thinking more about it and stuff - that you could always try harder to be like even more controversial. > > But these management guys here totally drive me crazy - they never seem to get rid of people who simply just have axes to grind or who don't know how to get on well in cyber-space or are unable to take a bit of gentle correction. I mean, I'm still here and I bet this post doesn't get deleted. > > Nah, carry on, man. You'll be here for a long time... > > ;-) > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > C: I suspect you are correct. I think I agree with you. Unfortunately, I get lost in your maze of compound-complex sentences... Sorry good friend Scott... That is why I try to write in only simple sentences. But, alas... Too, too many so-called experts are too, too busy multi-tasking rather than being in the moment... hence, they so often mis-understand the question. They, while multi-tasking, not being-in-the-moment, answer the non-question... and, the next expert multi-tasking, not being-in-the-moment, answers the non-question, et cetera... peace... metta (maitri), Chuck PS: Wuz dis ah gude response? #104286 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 7:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. scottduncan2 Dear Charles, Regarding: C: "...PS: Wuz dis ah gude response?" Scott: It most certainly was not - unless it winds up being deleted. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #104287 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 7:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 7-jan-2010, om 17:51 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > his is called an individual who is a conviction-follower. Regarding > this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is > that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of > suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, > balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the > supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth > from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in > the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this > monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. > > "Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. > Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual > action, gradual practice." ------- N:I do not know what gnosis stands for, in Pali. I think that he has to continue developing right understanding in order to attain arahatship. I do not see anything here about mind-moments. I rmember you referred to this point some time ago. Nina #104288 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 8:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding truth_aerator Dear KenO, Nina, Robk2, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > We must remember there is no samma sati or samma samadhi without >samma ditthi. I agree, samma-ditthi is required. But does this mean that one can study samma-ditthi, do nothing afterwards, and expect panna to accumulate? Right view starts with the beliefs in: a) There is right and wrong (kusala and akusala) b) There is intentional action and its result (kamma and kammavipaka) c) There is the path to Nibbana. The path doesn't just falls out of blue sky. > Mindulness as I wrote to Howard does not always arise with panna >but during panna, mindfulness always arise. Wait a sec. Can two qualities arise simulteneously? On another note, sure. Wisdom is required for *samma*sati. But does this mean that one can study ADL (or something like that), do nothing afterwards, and expect sati with panna to arise? > > >As to samadhi: > >""Singleness of mind is concentration, friend Visakha; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development. " - MN44 > > > >Note: 4 satipatthanas are its theme (nimitta)! So it is much more than "simple one pointedness on who knows what" . Simple one pointedness is not beneficial as even snipers and cats waiting for the mouse have it. > > KO: I use B Bodhi translation to give another view of the pali > When it was said > "<> - that >is function of samatha Yes. If I remember it was citassa ekaggata word used. > > <> - definitely because concentration and mindfulness arise with panna. Without strong mindfulness there is no jhanas, and without panna there is no strong mindfulness. Mindfulness is only strengthened with panna just like the status of the minister (mindfulness) is increased with the prince (panna) standing beside the minister as compare to the minister without a prince. > Sure. Nobody disputes the requirement of panna and sati for Jhana. In fact the formula for 4th Jhana says that sati is purified there - in the 4th Jhana. > <> - if there is no panna, there wouldn't be right striving, much less talk about development or cultivation of such states. > >>> Note all the words about repetition, development, cultivation. > It is panna that matters and not concentration. Why was samma-samadhi mentioned as part of N8P? Only with panna sati will be strengthened, only with panna concentration will increase, and the concentration is help with the arisen of the equanimty and tranquility cetasikas. > > People always talk about concentration as a practise but forget Didn't you yourself proved the quote above that talks about "repetition, development, cultivation." >that a lot of suttas are talking about right view, senses, elements, >aggregates, D.O. etc. Sure. One doesn't refute the other. >Personally to me, its seem like there must be an action of the body >then it is call practise. It is action of the MIND, not the body. This however doesn't mean that the body can be disregarded by fasting, or holding in unsuitable positions. With metta, Alex #104289 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 8:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 7-jan-2010, om 17:51 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > his is called an individual who is a conviction-follower. Regarding > > this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is > > that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of > > suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, > > balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the > > supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth > > from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in > > the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this > > monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. > > > > "Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. > > Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual > > action, gradual practice." > ------- > N:I do not know what gnosis stands for, in Pali. If I remember correctly it stands for final knowledge of arhatship. "'Gladly would I let the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if I have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing my persistence.' For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis here & now, or if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance non-return." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html >I think that he has to continue developing right understanding And all the other factors. >in order to attain arahatship. I do not see anything here about >mind-moments. I rmember you referred to this point some time ago. > Nina This and some other suttas refute the idea that those on the path last only for a few mind moments. Someone on the path to stream entry (or any other level up to path to Arhatship) may last for years! With metta, Alex #104290 From: Vince Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 10:36 pm Subject: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: To me, the above is thinking of concepts of seeing, of non- > existent, of seeing in the other person. Thinking is naama and it is > conditioned. > The Abidhamma explains paramattha dhammas as different from concepts. > It explains what can be directly experienced. We can only 'think' of > the seeing in someone else, but this cannot be directly experienced. Where is the difference?. At least to me, seeing is seeing. I cannot understand this point of the practical side. If I understand well, according Abbhidhamma, seeing arises because of eyesense and visible object, so dependent on the ruupas of eyesense and visible object. Well, so if in all people the Seeing arises in the same way, Why "my seeing" is different of the Seeing of other person?. It sounds as if many people were taking a shower while each one claims not be able to experience the water of his neighbor: - "Do you know my water"? - "No, I cannot. Anyway I don't have interest because I have mine. it sounds quite surrealistic!! :-) > N: You mention some great disciples in the Buddha's time. They had > already accumulated understanding for aeons. not all. Some of them become arhant just by giving one alms in the precedent live. Anyway, Sujin told me that there is not a place for that accumulation but it only exists in the present moment. I agree with this; when there is not self, there is not time. Time is delusion, we cannot experience one hour neither one aeon. > N: It teaches us about cittas arising in processes, but one at a time > can be investigated. One characteristic can be known at a time. yes, that's the point. Seeing arises because eyesense and visible object. But if I understand well, there is rupa but not multiple rupas. So in fact we don't know "my seeing": what we know is just Seeing. I understand the true error is in "me" and "mine". The "someone else" and this "I" are delusion. They are consciousness, mind and body, six sense bases, contact, feeling, craving, clinging and becoming. > N: All over it explains that what you take for person or self are > citta, cetasika and ruupa. Dhammas condition dhammas, there is no > place for a person. then the Seeing of the whole universe with all the beings is experienced now > Quote from the Tiika to Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 298. This chapter > deals with the Dependent Origination. > [...] > Tiika as to the last phrase: > Conclusion: One can learn that whatever arises because of conditions, > is a mere dhamma, it does not come from anywhere nor does it go > anywhere. No being, no person is to be found. > This teaching is from beginning to the end in the Abhidhamma. The > texts are not just from reading and considering, they point to the > practice: realizing the truth of anattaa. yes, it is what I pursue. Lot of thanks for these texts and cites. They are a nice support. best, Vince #104291 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jan 8, 2010 11:25 pm Subject: Without Doubts! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Without desires, cravings or doubts! The venerable Todeyya once asked the Blessed Buddha : One who has cooled all sense desire, cut all craving, and overcome all doubts, is there any higher release for him? In whom no sensual pleasures dwell, Todeyya, said the Blessed One, and for whom no craving exists, and who has crossed over all doubts, for such one is there no other higher release... Todeyya then further asked: Is he without longings, or is he hoping? Does he possess final understanding, or is he still seeking understanding? Please explain this to me, Sakyan with universal vision, so that I may recognise a true sage. He is without longings, he is not hoping for anything. He do indeed possess complete understanding, he is not searching for anything. In this very way, Todeyya, recognise the sage, he possesses nothing, he is neither attached to any form of sense pleasure, nor to any form of existence. He is all silenced! Sutta-Nipata 1088-91 Edited excerpt. Comment: While dwelling on these answers the venerable Todeyya became an arahat! The Awakened Arahats just looks upon all in equanimity as if from above... <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104292 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. dhammasaro Good friend Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Charles, > > Regarding: > > C: "...PS: Wuz dis ah gude response?" > > Scott: It most certainly was not - unless it winds up being deleted. > > ;-) > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Oh well... kant pease all, kan vun... #104293 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 3:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for this: > Tiika as to the last phrase: > > (satte > ca nupalabbhante, nevucchedo na sassatan"ti), the Tiika explains that > mere dhammas are produced which are dependent on a cause, and hence > no being is to be found. When one believes in annihilation, one does > not see that there is an uninterrupted production of phenomena. One > does not see that the dying-consciousness is immediately succeeded by > rebirth-consciousness. When one believes in eternalism, one does not > see the cessation of phenomena arising in succession; one does not > see that there is no being who travels from the past life to the > present life. So long as there is clinging to the idea of self, there > can be annihilation belief or eternity belief. Best wishes pt #104294 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 8:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Parajika in the Vinaya Pitaka. Was: Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > > [Thank you for posting your very nice pic with your son in the DSG photo album] > C: Warm thanks for commenting. Did you see the pic before of my son and I as temporary monks at Wat Monkoltepmunee, PA, USA last year? I flew by myself to Thailand to attend my wife's sister's cremation as a monk. Then, disrobed at Wat Pak Nam just before the annual "rains retreat" began. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104295 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 8:54 am Subject: Compendium of philosophy - Anuruddha dhammasaro Pali Text Society Translation Series No. 2... Management: Do you accept this work? #104296 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 1:22 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, Tranquil meditation should not be considered a necessary preparation for the development of insight. The Buddha did not set any rules with regard to tranquil meditation as a requirement for the development of insight. Individual inclinations are different. It depends on ones accumulated inclinations whether one applies oneself to tranquil meditation or not. People in the Buddhas time who had accumulated great skill developed calm even to the degree of absorption. In order to attain enlightenment, however, they still had to develop insight, direct understanding of realities, stage by stage. They had to have right understanding also of the citta which attained absorption in order not to take absorption for self. There were many people in the Buddhas time who attained enlightenment without having developed a high degree of calm first. The aim of tranquil meditation is the subduing of defilements, but, even when absorption is attained, they cannot be eradicated. When there are conditions, akusala cittas arise again. In the development of insight any reality which appears, no matter whether it is pleasant or unpleasant, kusala or akusala, is the object of understanding. Defilements should be understood as they are: as realities which arise because of their own conditions and which are not self. So long as defilements are still considered as self or mine they cannot be eradicated. The development of insight does not exclude calm, there are also conditions for calm in the development of insight. When defilements are eradicated stage by stage there will be more calm. When defilements are completely eradicated there is no more disturbance by akusala and this is the highest degree of calm. The development of insight which is included in mental development, is the development of direct understanding of realities, of the mental phenomena and physical phenomena of our life. ****** Nina. #104297 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 8-jan-2010, om 21:27 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > This and some other suttas refute the idea that those on the path > last only for a few mind moments. Someone on the path to stream > entry (or any other level up to path to Arhatship) may last for years! ------- N: Perhaps there can be confusion about the word path. Path when it stands for magga-citta, path-consciousness, it is only one moment. Nina. #104298 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 2:01 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (316,15) and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 15 Walshe DN 33.2.1(15) 'Five points to be borne in mind by a monk wishing to rebuke another: (a) I will speak at the proper time, not the wrong time, (b) I will state the truth, not what is false, (c) I will speak gently, not roughly, (d) I will speak for his good, [iii 237] not for his harm, (e) I will speak with love in my heart, not with enmity. (Codakena , aavuso, bhikkhunaa para.m codetukaamena pa~nca dhamme ajjhatta.m upa.t.thapetvaa paro codetabbo. Kaalena vakkhaami no akaalena, bhuutena vakkhaami no abhuutena, sa.nhena vakkhaami no pharusena, atthasa.mhitena vakkhaami no anatthasa.mhitena, mettacittena [mettaacittena (katthaci)] vakkhaami no dosantarenaati. Codakena, aavuso, bhikkhunaa para.m codetukaamena ime pa~nca dhamme ajjhatta.m upa.t.thapetvaa paro codetabbo.) -------- N: The co. explains as to speaking at the proper time that this should be proper for the person to be reproved, not for the person who censures. The co. mentions places and situations that are not suitable: in the midst of an assembly, in the building for the uposatha (vigil) and for the ceremony at the end of the rainsretreat (pavaara.na), in the hall with seating accomodation, in the refectory. In these places he should not censure another person. At the place of midday rest he should seek an opportunity saying, I should like to speak to the reverend bhikkhu. He should state the truth, that is, according to reality. He should speak gently, mildly, wanting his welfare and benefit. ---------- N: This sutta is a reminder also for laypeople about the way to speak to someone else who needs to be reminded of what is right. This is a delicate matter, one should know the right time and the right place and speak gently, with metta. While speaking one should be mindful of ones own cittas, are these kusala cittas or akusala cittas? Satipa.t.thaana can help above all to have right speech. ------------- Pali: Codakenaati vatthusa.msandassanaa, aapattisa.msandassanaa, sa.mvaasappa.tikkhepo, saamiicippa.tikkhepoti catuuhi codanaavatthuuhi codayamaanena.... ******* Nina. #104299 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 5:46 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 2 No 1 ashkenn2k Dear all The Atthasåliní (II, Book II, Part II,400) explains about being unguarded as to the “controlling faculties”, the indriyas. Here the indriyas of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind are referred to. We read: “Grasps the general appearance i.e., grasps by way of lusting desire a sign such as is of the male, or female, pleasant, etc., and which is the basis of corruption.” When we cling to the general appearance of male or female, it shows that the object is not a paramattha dhamma. When we know that we see a man or woman, we don’t just know the reality which appears through the eyes, but we have an image (nimitta), a concept on account of what appears through the eyes. The image of the general appearance of a man or woman is the foundation of defilements.Through the power of desire (chanda raga) we take that image for something attractive. When we like a concept such as a belt, it shows that the belt is an attractive image. One is attached to it, one is ruled by desire. If the belt is not beautiful, if it is not an attractive nimitta (image), one does not like it. On account of colours which appear through the eyes, there can be different nimittas, attractive or unattractive. We read further on in the Atthasåliní. Grasps the details (anuvyañjana), “i.e. takes the various modes of hands and feet, of smiling, laughing, speaking, looking straight ahead, looking askance, which have earned the name of “details”, they manifest, reveal the defilements. to be continued Ken O #104300 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 5:48 am Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 10 ashkenn2k Dear all Q. : Is it true that the sotpanna, the person who has attained the first stage of enlightenment, does not recognize his father or mother? S. : The sotpanna clearly realizes the dhamma which sees as a type of nma. After seeing he knows what it is that was perceived, namely a person, a being or a thing he can think of. Thinking is another type of nma which arises and then falls away. Is there anybody who sees and then does not know the meaning of what was seen? If that is the case the Buddha would not have recognized nanda or Moggallna, or anything at all. Then there would be only the nma which sees and no other types of nma which recognize what was seen. However, dhammas take their own natural course, they are what they are. Apart from the nma which sees there is after the seeing also the nma which knows the meaning of what was seen. to be continued Ken O #104301 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding ashkenn2k Dear Alex >I agree, samma-ditthi is required. But does this mean that one can study samma-ditthi, do nothing afterwards, and expect panna to accumulate? KO: Considering of dhamma as I said a few times earlier is not about book study, it is also considering when dhamma arise. When panna arise to see reality as not self (this is considering of dhamma), it is development. Reality is always present when one is awake like see, hear, smell, taste, touch and think. Isn't that enough for development of panna. When there is expectation, there is lobha. When there is lobha, there is no panna. >Right view starts with the beliefs in: >a) There is right and wrong (kusala and akusala) >b) There is intentional action and its result (kamma and kammavipaka) >c) There is the path to Nibbana. The path doesn't just falls out of blue sky. KO: Right view can mean panna, can also meant the correction of the 62 wrong views. > >Wait a sec. Can two qualities arise simulteneously? KO: We should not say qualities, it should be cetasikas. There are 19 sobhana cetasikas that arise with each kusala cittas. Under the 19, there is sati, there is calm > >On another note, sure. Wisdom is required for *samma*sati. But does this mean that one can study ADL (or something like that), do nothing afterwards, and expect sati with panna to arise? KO: explain already in the 1st paragraph >Yes. If I remember it was citassa ekaggata word used. KO: Sorry I my definition was wrong, concentration is the function of ekaggata or samadhi and not samatha. Because the function of samatha is calm or tranquility. Calm could only be experienced in kusala citta while there could be miccha samadhi or samma samadhi. >Sure. Nobody disputes the requirement of panna and sati for Jhana. In fact the formula for 4th Jhana says that sati is purified there - in the 4th Jhana. KO: Sati is not purified by jhana, jhana means burn up of defilements. Sati is only purified with panna. Without the panna, jhana is only of birth in the brahman plane as latency is not eradicated. With panna, there is eradication of latency which means lead to enlightment. Jhana is not key important ingredient to enlightment. If it is, the teachers of Buddha before he becomes a Buddha would have been enlighted. Buddha would have been enlighted in his past bodhisattvas lifes. Panna does not need jhana for enlightment. But one needs panna to develop jhana because it is panna that makes one see the danger of sensual desire and wish to be withdraw from sense pleasure. Not the other way round. >Why was samma-samadhi mentioned as part of N8P? KO: because when panna arise, all the other factors are samma. Just like action is always right with panna. One will not take a life at the moment when panna arise. >Sure. One doesn't refute the other. > KO: there is huge difference in panna and samadhi as there could be miccha samadhi >It is action of the MIND, not the body. This however doesn't mean that the body can be disregarded by fasting, or holding in unsuitable positions. KO: Hmm when you concentrate on breathing, it is body that breath or mind that breath :-). That is called action. Can one see action in the mind :-). can mind move :-). Cheers Ken O #104302 From: "ashkenn2k" Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 7:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah > S: Yes, I've seen the texts. Yes, attanuditthi is sakkayaditthi, but it's also wider. You haven't told me whether you take the computer for being yourself! KO: Hmm, I still dont buy your idea that attanuditthi is wider than sakkayaditthi as you have not shown my any textual references. I believe you base your idea that attanuditthi is opposite of anatta which I initially thought so also. That is how I felt you think that attanuditthi is wider. Now explaining why when we cling to a different thing it is a sakkayditthi because we are thinking "this is my computer". We believe we possess the computer. There is a self in computer. We clings to the computer as mine or myself. That is what is meant by sakkayditthi in the passage below as written in Realities and Concept. <> But when we said I want this computer, that is sakkayaditthi in the "I" and not on the computer. It is different from "this is my computer" where sakkayaditthi is on my computer. Hope that explains :-). > ... > S: It is because of attanuditthi that the impermanent is taken for permanent, for something. This is why when attanuditthi is eradicated, so is the taking of the impermanent for permanent. KO: No, taking impermanent as permanent is miccha ditthi not attanuditthi as attanuditthi is about a doctrine of self. > ... > S: Young children and animals don't think or have ideas about realities, so no ditthi, but plenty of lobha, dosa and avijja. > > Like children buidling sand-castles on the beach for hours - no wrong views, just lots of lobha and ignorance and dosa when someone annoys them or messes up the castle. KO: Young tender infant i belive there is no ditthi as they still do not develop yet the idea of self. But when you said that young children, I believe they do understand. At a very young age, they know they like to have this hairstyle or that. They know when they are looking at the mirror, they know it is their image they are looking at. An animal definitely has sakkayditthi as they have knowledge of self. They know the body they have are themselves. But not all animal has that ability. We got to do a mirror test on them :-). Cheers Ken O #104303 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 8-jan-2010, om 23:36 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > If I understand well, according Abbhidhamma, seeing arises because of > eyesense and visible object, so dependent on the ruupas of eyesense > and visible object. Well, so if in all people the Seeing arises in > the same way, Why "my seeing" is different of the Seeing of other > person?. > -------- N: You are right. Seeing is seeing, no matter a dog sees or a human sees. It experiences visible object. --------- > >> N: You mention some great disciples in the Buddha's time. They had >> already accumulated understanding for aeons. > > V: not all. Some of them become arhant just by giving one alms in the > precedent live. Anyway, Sujin told me that there is not a place for > that accumulation but it only exists in the present moment. ------- N: There is no store of accumulations, right. No store-consciousness (alaya). Good and bad tendencies are passed on from one citta to the next citta, and a new accumulation is added time and again. --------- > >> N: It teaches us about cittas arising in processes, but one at a time >> can be investigated. One characteristic can be known at a time. > > V: yes, that's the point. Seeing arises because eyesense and visible > object. But if I understand well, there is rupa but not multiple > rupas. So in fact we don't know "my seeing": what we know is just > Seeing. I understand the true error is in "me" and "mine". ------ N: Yes, that is wrong view of self. ------- > > V:The "someone else" and this "I" are delusion. They are > consciousness, > mind and body, six sense bases, contact, feeling, craving, clinging > and becoming. > ------- > N: Yes, that is right. --------- >> N: All over it explains that what you take for person or self are >> citta, cetasika and ruupa. Dhammas condition dhammas, there is no >> place for a person. > > V: then the Seeing of the whole universe with all the beings is > experienced now ------- N: By whom? The Abhidhamma and the sutta (Migajalasutta) teaches us that we are actually alone. There is no universe. Only naama and ruupa. As Kh Sujin explains in Survey: each person lives in his own world of thinking. We are alone, we are born alone, live our life alone, die alone. ---------- > Nina. #104304 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 1:38 pm Subject: Re: Awareness of present moment. kenhowardau Hi Ken O and Sarah, Just interrupting if I may: ------------ > S: Yes, I've seen the texts. Yes, attanuditthi is sakkayaditthi, but it's also wider. You haven't told me whether you take the computer for being yourself! KO: > > because we are thinking "this is my computer". We believe we possess the computer. There is a self in computer. We clings to the computer as mine or myself. --------- Regardless of whether it is my computer or your computer (or for that matter, the Eiffel Tower) attanuditthi sees it as a persisting entity. ----------- KO: > That is what is meant by sakkayditthi in the passage below as written in Realities and Concept. <> ----------- The author (A Sujin) has written, "When someone clings to the concept of . . . and . . . and really believes that they exist." So she is talking here about someone who has strong philosophical beliefs on the matter. She is not talking about just anyone who automatically assumes that our computers and the Eiffel Tower will still be there in the morning. People with *strong* attanudhitthi views will invariably also have sakkayaditthi views. I think that is what A Sujin was saying. Corrections welcome. Ken H #104305 From: "santa_esi09" Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 9:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 1. santa_esi09 I don't have any objection regarding other points in this short article, but I still need the explanation regarding the statement which mentions that the wholesomeness of generosity and the moral conduct can be performed without understanding of the arising citta. Actually, I do agree with you that these two can performed even without understanding the citta, but that will be good and more giving advantages when we are having the quality of generosity and performing the moral conduct with understanding of kusalacitta. Moreover if these two things are performed with the citta of somanassasahagata, ānsampayutta asankharikam, that will be better, is not it? Hopefully, you can explain it further. Beside that, in the Sonadaṇḍa sutta of the Dighanikaya, it is said that sila dan paā are not separate things. They are like two hands which help each other while washing itself. So I feel that as far as Buddhism is concerned, wisdom / understanding is always needed even in the practice of sila / moral conduct. Metta, /S. Santa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Chapter 7 > > Mental development and meditation > > #104083 #104306 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 5:34 pm Subject: Re: Standard English-Pali Terms was meditation, hatred ,and fear jonoabb Hi Chuck (104161) > > Do you have any better ideas? ;-)) > > C: No, just a standard rationale!!! > =============== Good idea -- except that everyone has different ideas as to what should be the standard ;-)) > =============== > Why not use a respected Pali Buddhist Dictionary such as > > 1. the "Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines" by Nyanatiloka as I was required. > > Perhaps, add > > 2. "English-Pali Dictionary" by A. P. Buddhadatta Mahathera. > > or, > > 3. "Pali-English Dictionary" by T. W. Rhys Davids and William Stede. > =============== The de facto standard today seems to be the Bhikkhu Bodhi English terms as found in his Middle Length Sayings and Collected Discourses translations (there is a glossary of Pali terms at the back of each). > =============== > FWIW, it was enforced and re-enforced, words mean things. And, if we do not have an agreed common vocabulary, we have chaos!!! > =============== Yes, an agreed common vocabulary is necessary for any proper communication. As I see it, our common vocabulary is the Pali terms used in the texts (dhamma, citta, viriya, samatha, etc). As long a we are familiar with these, it doesn't really matter if there's some variation in the choice of English terms used for their translation. By the same token, even with an agreed vocabulary of English terms, it would still be necessary to know the original Pali terms, first because the English term would carry a different meaning from its conventional one, and secondly, for reading and understanding different translations of the Tipitaka, each of which uses its own set of English terms for the Pali. Jon #104307 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 5:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding jonoabb Hi KenO (104279) > KO: It is not the function of samatha to clear view, samatha is just concentration on an object. It is panna that clear view, removing the darkness that blind us from the characteristics of dhamma. > =============== Here (and also below) you are referring to panna of the level of satipatthana, of course. Samatha is also accompanied by panna, but it is panna of a different (lesser) level. If we talk about "just concentration on an object", that could be either kusala or akusala, since concentration is not intrinsically kusala. Jon > =============== > KO: There is no minimun requirement. Whatever minimun requirement we have, honestly to me is our own sets of requirement. No offense meant, this is to me, wishful thinking. It got nothing to do with satipatthana. Whenever panna arise, samatha arise but not the other way round. Whenever panna arise, there is samatha, there is satipatthana. > > Ken O #104308 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 5:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. jonoabb Hi Chuck (104273) > 1. The late, Thai ajahn Buddhadassa taught there are two kinds of language - Everyday mundane language and Dhamma language. > > As a mere puthujjana, I write in the everyday language. > > However, most active participants here are ariya-puggala and, hence, write in the Dhamma language. > =============== If we are to discuss the teachings of the Buddha, it's necessary to understand the terms he used. For the most part, these terms are from everyday language, but they carry a different meaning. So we have to take account of that when communicating. Then again, the way things are in truth and reality, as spoken of by the Buddha, is quite different from the way things are generally perceived. This requires a certain degree of care in using ordinary language. So I think the use of 'Dhamma language' is unavoidable, and in fact desirable, if we are to communicate meaningfully. For example, your use of the terms "puthujjana" and "ariya-puggala" (and, for that matter, "Dhamma") in your comments above ;-)) > =============== > 2. As I was taught, it matters not whether ones practice is completely correct; it is the intention and consistent practice which is important. In time, through persistence, complete correct practice will evolve. > =============== The proposition that: "it matters not whether ones practice is completely correct; it is the intention and consistent practice which is important. In time, through persistence, complete correct practice will evolve" is an interesting one that has been expressed here before, but without any support from the texts being given. I'd be interested to know what authority you've been given for this. > =============== > 3. One can recite the Tipitaka; but, with no practice... where is one? > =============== I think you'll find no disagreement from anyone here on this point. Recitation of the Tipitaka is not one of the conditions for the development of the path. On the other hand, to my understanding, an intellectual understanding of much of what is in the texts in a prerequisite for the development of satipatthana. Jon #104309 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 4:08 pm Subject: Without Clinging! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Without Clinging one is Liberated! The disciple Bhadr avudha once asked the Blessed Buddha : How can one release all clinging? By dispelling all craving, thereby all clinging is also released, because craving causes clinging! Thus do absence of craving result in absence of clinging said the Blessed One. Bhadr avudha, where-ever above, below, across, and also in between: Whatever beings grasp and cling to in the world, by that very thing is they followed to death... Attaching to anything, means attaching to death! Therefore, knowing this, seeing people clinging even in panic to the realm of death, any aware & alert Bhikkhu would neither grasp, nor cling to anything in the entire world. Seeing all those people, who habitually are very attached to many worldly things and thus clinging to death's realm, he stills all craving. By stilling all craving, all clinging is relinquished. No wanting means no clutch! Sutta-Nipata 1101-04 Edited excerpt. Comment: While dwelling detached the later ordained Bhadr avudha became an arahat! <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104310 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding ashkenn2k Dear Jon Initially I thought with samadhi and samantha are the similar. Then happen to listen to the tapes on 12 Oct 05 e audio tapes. There was a discussion on jhanas, samatha and samadhi. I realise I have made mistakes in the definition of these two terms.. Hence i corrected the term on another email which I sent to Alex earlier. I appreciate a lot the discussion with you and Sarah recently on sakkayditthi and some of the terms which I have not understand clearly. With the addition of listening to the recordings, the terms are clearer now. Its important to know the pali meanings/terms correctly. On samatha, it arise with every kusala, may or may not with panna. I felt a lot of misunderstanding is that samadhi is the practise of calm. This is because of the many suttas that show the attaintment of the 1st to 4th jhanas before arising of enlightenment. It makes people believe one must attain jhanas before enlightenment or practise samadhi to develop jhanas. However, it is not jhanas that eradicate defilements, it is panna. Without panna, one will not withdrawn from sensual pleasure, without the withdrawal from sensual pleasure, one cannot attain jhanas. So no matter whether it is mundane jhanas or jhanas practise by non-Buddhist practitioners, panna must arise for one to enter into jhanas. Cheers Ken O #104311 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:00 am Subject: Audio recordings ashkenn2k Dear Jon and Sarah I went to the dhamma study org website, there is no audio recording for 2008 and 2009. could you point me to any site which I could download them thank you Ken O #104312 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:07 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 1. nilovg Dear Santa, Op 9-jan-2010, om 18:59 heeft santa_esi09 het volgende geschreven: > I do agree with you that these two can performed even without > understanding the citta, but that will be good and more giving > advantages when we are having the quality of generosity and > performing the moral conduct with understanding of kusalacitta. > Moreover if these two things are performed with the citta of > somanassasahagata, aa.nasampayutta asankharikam, that will be > better, is not it? Hopefully, you can explain it further. Beside > that, in the Sonadanda sutta of the Dighanikaya, it is said that > sila dana paaa are not separate things. They are like two hands > which help each other while washing itself. So I feel that as far > as Buddhism is concerned, wisdom / understanding is always needed > even in the practice of sila / moral conduct. ------- N:With pa~n~naa they can further develop and become more accomplished. Pa~n~naa is of different levels. It can be understanding of kusala as kusala, and it can be understanding of kusala as a conditioned dhamma, not self. The siila of the sotaapanna who has eradicated the wrong view of self is of such degree that there cannot be transgression of the five precepts. He cannot commit akusala kamma that leads to an unhappy rebirth. Through satipa.t.thaana the six doors are guarded. When daana and siila are performed without any idea of self they are purer. Nina. #104313 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: #104308 > > No Comment!!! .......................................... Tone of messages‏ From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott (dsgmods@...) Sent: Fri 1/08/10 7:37 AM To: charlest (dhammasaro@...) Hi Chuck We appreciate your many contributions to the list of late, but would ask that you keep things friendly and avoid personal remarks such as those in your message #104249 to Howard. References to the KGB and the like are best avoided! Jon and Sarah #104314 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:11 am Subject: Re: Standard English-Pali Terms was meditation, hatred ,and fear dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: #104306 > > No comment!!! ..................................... Tone of messages‏ From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott (dsgmods@...) Sent: Fri 1/08/10 7:37 AM To: charlest (dhammasaro@...) Hi Chuck We appreciate your many contributions to the list of late, but would ask that you keep things friendly and avoid personal remarks such as those in your message #104249 to Howard. References to the KGB and the like are best avoided! Jon and Sarah #104315 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5. scottduncan2 Dear Chuck (and Jon), Regarding: C: "...However, most active participants here are ariya-puggala and, hence, write in the Dhamma language..." J: "...So I think the use of 'Dhamma language' is unavoidable, and in fact desirable, if we are to communicate meaningfully. For example, your use of the terms 'puthujjana' and 'ariya-puggala' (and, for that matter, 'Dhamma') in your comments above ;-))..." C: "No Comment!!!" Mods: "...We appreciate your many contributions to the list of late, but would ask that you keep things friendly and avoid personal remarks..." Scott: Chuck, I think you are Over-Reacting to the above. It now appears as if you think that no one ought to dare to suggest that you amend your Online Persona, when I'm sure that you couldn't possibly be thinking this way. It now appears as if, simply because you were Moderated by a Moderator, you will never make another point on the list again except to Continually Bring Up the Moderating Event, when I'm sure that you couldn't possibly be thinking this way. Is there any way you can just carry on without having to Repeatedly-Highlight-The-Audacity-Of-The-Moderators-For-Having-Dared-To-Suggest-\ How-They'd-Prefer-You-Interact-On-The-Forum-That-They-Moderate? I thought Jon made a reasonable attempt at offering you some cogent points to discuss. A very good way to save face would be to simply discuss with Jon in an equally cogent fashion... Sincerely, Scott. #104316 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (316,15) and commentary. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: "sutta 15..." Scott: I've had trouble accessing the material for Sutta 15, which means it hasn't been posted yet. As soon as I figure this out I will catch up to you here. Sincerely, Scott. #104317 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Ken H Views are always welcome and through them, understanding of dhamma could grow. Sarah felt attanuditthi is wider than sakkayaditthi and my point is attanuditthi is the same as sakkayditthi (according to the texts). Both are doctrines of self. There is nothing wrong in wholeness like a persons, or a car or a computer and knowing them as concepts. Taking a car as realilty is not sakkayaditthi or attanuditthi, it is micchaditthi. Thinking that car or computer is mine or could be possessed, is sakkayaditthi. Cheers Ken O #104318 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 1. ashkenn2k Dear Santa sila and dana would be better with panna and not whether it is prompted or not prompted. Sila can arise without panna likewise panna can arise without sila. When both of them arise together, the development of sila would be develop for the eradication of latency. Without panna, sila is for the ripening of kusala kamma and will not eradicate latency. thanks Ken O > >I don't have any objection regarding other points in this short article, but I still need the explanation regarding the statement which mentions that the wholesomeness of generosity and the moral conduct can be performed without understanding of the arising citta. Actually, I do agree with you that these two can performed even without understanding the citta, but that will be good and more giving advantages when we are having the quality of generosity and performing the moral conduct with understanding of kusalacitta. Moreover if these two things are performed with the citta of somanassasahagata, ānsampayutta asankharikam, that will be better, is not it? Hopefully, you can explain it further. Beside that, in the Sonadaṇ ḍa sutta of the Dighanikaya, it is said that sila dan paā are not separate things. They are like two hands which help each other while washing itself. So I feel that as far as Buddhism is concerned, wisdom / understanding is always needed even in the practice of sila / moral conduct. > >Metta, >/S. Santa > #104319 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (316,15) and commentary. nilovg Dear Scott, Op 10-jan-2010, om 14:30 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > Scott: I've had trouble accessing the material for Sutta 15, which > means it hasn't been posted yet. As soon as I figure this out I > will catch up to you here. ------ N: I could not remember whether or not it was posted, sorry. Nina. #104320 From: Vince Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:23 pm Subject: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Nina wrote: >> V: then the Seeing of the whole universe with all the beings is >> experienced now > ------- > N: By whom? > The Abhidhamma and the sutta (Migajalasutta) teaches us that we are > actually alone. There is no universe. Only naama and ruupa. > As Kh Sujin explains in Survey: each person lives in his own world of > thinking. > We are alone, we are born alone, live our life alone, die alone. > ---------- yes, you are right: by nobody, like a dream without a dreamer. We live in our own world of thinking. But this situation is not bad news because it can become the source of unwordly joy. Sometimes when one check that panorama, melancholy can appear as a -self construction to impede the establishment of that special joy. This joy is needed in some degree for attainment; perhaps you or somebody knows concrete references for this need. About the unworldly joy: "And what are the six kinds of renunciation joy? The joy that arises when experiencing the inconstancy of those very forms, their change, fading, & cessation one sees with right discernment as it actually is that all forms, past or present, are inconstant, stressful, subject to change: That is called renunciation joy. (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.) * MN 137 I have found this reflection of a bhikkhu: "This business of being alive once seemed simple either you were or you weren't but even a brief contemplation reveals surprising complexities. It appears we have long considered death as a single grim monolith that will one day thump us on the head, while in reality death is subtle, manifold, and coexistent with the mind that fears it. Our steps drag slowly over the gravel, and around us the cemetery seems more empty than ever. There is nobody to be seen, even the birds have vanished, and our solitude is complete. The question must arise now; if we have misunderstood death, have we not misunderstood its corollary, life, as well? If what we have been calling death is not singular and unique but threaded throughout the living process, can we even draw a clear and meaningful distinction between the two? Here we must turn to the Buddha, who did not speak of "life" and "death" as independent realities but rather pointed out that experience is a continual becoming, a process of ceaseless change, a flux of arising and perishing which is to say samsara, the great wheel of cause and effect, on whose flashing rim no beginning and no end can be found." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/price/bl096.html Thanks Nina for your thoughts. I have a happy feeling reading cites and messages about how Abhidhamma is well fit with anatman. Truth is, at least on my side, reflection of non -self is able to add enthusiasm in the practice in a more immediate way. Maybe it is just my case, I'm not sure. When I have enter in this list I missed reading more things about abhidhamma and non -self; although for sure it was only my own impatience at all :) best wishes, Vince. #104321 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'dhamma' in Theravada abhidhamma and Nagarjuna sarahprocter... Dear Dhammadipa (& pt), --- On Thu, 7/1/10, ptaus1 wrote: >From my beginner understanding of the topic, ultimate realities do not exist is the sense of little existing entities because they are conditioned, however, they are realities in the sense that they can be really experienced through insight, unlike concepts about realities which will be revealed to be mere illusions by the same insight. ... S: This was a neat summary. I appreciate all your responses to new members, pt. Metta Sarah ========= #104322 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Break out of the Shackle of Anger! sarahprocter... Dear Jonathan & Ven Samahita, You gave some helpful quotes, such as the following: --- On Thu, 7/1/10, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: >COOLED One should cool any anger, let go of any pride and leave behind any attachment. Such cooled one, not clinging neither to identity, body, form nor world cannot ever suffer any pain. Dhammapada Illustration 221 Background Story 221 CONTROL Whoever do not loose his temper, even in a rage, like a car pressed in a high speed turn, him I call 'a Driver', others are merely holders of the wheel. Dhammapada Illustration 222 Background Story 222 ... S: I enjoyed your translation. I looked to check the Pali and Narada's transl. for this, which are: Yo ve uppatita.m ratha.m bhanta.m'va dhaaraye Tam aha.m saarathi.m bruumi rasmiggaaho itaro jano "Whoso checks his uprisen anger as though it were a rolling chariot, him I call a true charioteer. Other charioteers are mere rein-holders." ... ?TOOLS One can only overcome anger with kindness. One can only conquer evil with good.. One can only win the miser by generosity.. . One can only convince the liar with truth.... Dhammapada Illustration 223 Background Story 223 ... S: I always like this one a lot. We had some discussion before about 'what to do if a murderer/robber etc approached one' - The Buddha's response is always to respond with wholesome states such as kindness and awareness. ... >With Metta, Jonathan ... S: Jonathan, would you care to introduce yourself here and let us know how you come to use/share Ven Samahita's address? Do you also live in Sri Lanka? [JonAthan, not to be confused with JonOthan!] Metta Sarah ======== #104323 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm Subject: maggaphala is it kamma or kammavipaka? truth_aerator Hello all, Is magga, kamma or kammavipaka? Is phala, kamma or kammavipaka? With metta, Alex #104324 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) sarahprocter... Dear Alex (& Ken O), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > >And anapanasati can be used as training in adhisila, adhicitta and adhipanna. It can be used for insight cultivation and it can be used > >in such a way that nama and rupa are seen. Anapanasati does fulfill Satipatthana. ... S: Adhisila, adhicitta an adhipanna all refer to the development of insight which has to begin with the understanding of nama and rupa now. If there is any trying to get a result or to "use" anything for this purpose, it is not the path. I like the way Ken O puts it: > KO: Why wait to do anapanasait to see nama and rupa. Even while you are writing this email, they are already nama and rupa. Visible object is rupa, visible citta is nama. To keep it simple, you could just understand rupa, visible object. We cannot stop ourselves from experience nama and rupa in our daily lives. Only by understanding reality at the moment even if now is the conventional level seeing and not paramatha dhamma level is developing the understanding of nama and rupa. It should be now and why wait for anapanasati? Why waste the rest of the day where nama and rupa keeps appearing. ... S: It's so true, Alex? Why indeed waste any moment trying to use or do anything when there are nama and rupa now? Metta Sarah ====== #104325 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi sarahprocter... Dear Chew & Han, Apologies for a late response. I found the comments Chew shared very interesting and Han's PTS note helpful as well. I wasn't aware of these different meanings of "desana". I couldn't find the Vism ref. easily - could you give me the ref in Nanamoli's translation (if either of you have this)? Thanks in advance. Also, Han, do you have any other text series you'd like to share for the New Year? Just if you have time and it's not a burden. Best wishes to you and your family. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Chew, > > I have made some minor suggestions below. > But please feel free to ignore them. > > First, purification by the Teaching. > [The word Teaching is not correct here.] Han: may omit this sentence. > There are two English translations of [Teaching] in Visuddhimagga. > One was made by a Burmese gentleman. And the other by N~anamoli. > [But both of them did not get the right translation here.] Han: may omit this line. > The pali word here is Desana. > And the word Desana generally mean a summon, a teaching, or a preaching. > But here, Desana is used in technical sense in Vinaya. > And desana in Vinaya means revealing one's offence [aapatti], or confession. > So, purification by confession. > When a monk has broken a rule or more rules, he has to confess it to another monk. > When he has confessed, then he gets free from the offence of breaking that rule. > So, there is a kind of sila, which is called purification by confession. > Just by confession, one can get rid of the offence. > These are minor rules in the Patimokkha. > Like cutting a tree. Monks are not allowed to cut tree. > If a monk cuts tree, or plucks a flower or fruit. > It becomes a minor offence. > In order to get free from that minor offence. > He just has to confess it to another monk........ > > Note: > aapatti: [f.] an ecclesiastical offence. > desanaa: (page 330 of PTS Dictionary) Freq. in dhamma desanaa: moral instruction, exposition of the Dhamma, preaching, sermon Vin i.16; A i.53; ii.182; iv.337 sq.; It 33; J i.106 etc. (a desanaa gaaminii aapatti), a Paaraajika or Sanghaadisesa offence Vin ii.3, 87; v.187. Cp. Vin. Texts ii.33. -- 3. (legal) acknowledgment Miln 344. <...> #104326 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) truth_aerator Dear Sarah, KenO, Nina, All, >"sarah" wrote: > > Dear Alex (& Ken O), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > > Dear Alex > > > > >And anapanasati can be used as training in adhisila, adhicitta and adhipanna. It can be used for insight cultivation and it can be used > > >in such a way that nama and rupa are seen. Anapanasati does fulfill Satipatthana. > ... > S: Adhisila, adhicitta an adhipanna all refer to the development of >insight It is great if you accept that Adhicitta (Jhanas) help insight. >which has to begin with the understanding of nama and rupa now. True. But what sort of understanding are we talking about? >If there is any trying to get a result Meditation teachers also warn against craving for results. >or to "use" anything for this purpose, it is not the path. Even properly using Buddha Dhamma? Didn't He teach us the Dhamma to be used as a raft for crossing the sea to the yonder shore? I like the way Ken O puts it: > > > KO: Why wait to do anapanasait to see nama and rupa. Even while you are writing this email, they are already nama and rupa. Visible object is rupa, visible citta is nama. To keep it simple, you could just understand rupa, visible object. We cannot stop ourselves from experience nama and rupa in our daily lives. Only by understanding reality at the moment even if now is the conventional level seeing and not paramatha dhamma level is developing the understanding of nama and rupa. It should be now and why wait for anapanasati? Why waste the rest of the day where nama and rupa keeps appearing. > ... > S: It's so true, Alex? Why indeed waste any moment trying to use or do anything when there are nama and rupa now? > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== Don't waste any moment. True. But there are more and less suitable occasions. It is one thing to try to be mindful of namarupa in the busy kitchen while doing many tasks simultaneously. It is different from observing namarupa in access or higher concentration while sitting in seclusion. Certain objects may be decisive support conditions for latent tendencies to arise. It is hard for horny guys not to lose mindfulness in a strip club. On that note. In anapanasati I do not try to focus on the breath. With more awareness of the body, the mind naturally settles on the breath - a natural rupic phenomena! All normal people breath. Try not to breath for 2 or so minutes :) . With metta, Alex #104327 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verse 61 was My Conclusion upon contemplation sarahprocter... Dear Ken H (Chuck, Phil & all), --- On Tue, 5/1/10, kenhowardau wrote: >Meanwhile, I'd like to return to a favourite topic, 'Did the Buddha teach a conventional Dhamma as well as an ultimate one?' (groans) :-) --------- S: > > > > In the Dhammapada verse 61: > > > > "If, in your course, you don't meet > > your equal, your better, > > then continue your course, > > firmly, alone. > > There's no fellowship with fools." > ... > S: Does this mean that we physically avoid all such "fools"... >C: Imho, if in our mundane, puthujjana mind, we perceive a person as such, yes. >Sarah: ...or does it not mean that we avoid association with the wrong view of such "fools"? >C: Imho, if in our mundane, puthujjana mind, the person we perceive as a "fool"; we should avoid regardless the deficiency. ... S: Yes, I think both meanings can be implied. --------- K:> I like the meaning that depicts citta and cetasikas avoiding the company of wrong views. ... S: Yes, this is the meaning I like and I was going to just stress this one, until I looked at the commentary (see below)... ... >Sure, the other meaning can also be applied, but is it part of the Dhamma? >Conventionally speaking, there are times when fools should be avoided and times when fools should be tolerated and helped. So where is the cut-off point? We can't possibly know because we can't know another person's citta. >So the conventional way of knowing is not the sort of thing a Buddha would concern himself with. ... S: Yes, I generally agree and the Buddha himself had plenty of "conventional" association with fools. He didn't say "Oh, here's another fool approaching me, I must dash off to those roots of trees". ------------ -- >The Buddha said in the Satipatthana Sutta that a monk who was walking knew he was walking - but not in the same way that an ordinary person or an animal would know. Doesn't the same principle apply here? Even dogs and jackals can avoid unsuitable companions, but only a Buddhist disciple can avoid wrong views. .... S: Yes, of course I agree. here's a summary of the story again: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/dmpada2d.htm#Resident V (2) The Story of a Resident Pupil of Thera Mahakassapa While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (61) of this book, with reference to a resident pupil of Thera Mahakassapa. When Thera Mahakassapa was residing near Rajagaha, he had two young bhikkhus staying with him. One of them was respectful, obedient and dutiful to the thera, but the other one was not. When the old thera chided the latter for his slackness in his duties, he was very much offended. On one occasion, he went to the house of a lay-disciple of the thera, and lied to them that the thera was ill. Thus, he got some choice food from them for the thera; but he ate the food on the way. When admonished by the thera for this he was extremely angry. The next day, when the thera was out on his alms-round, the young foolish bhikkhu stayed behind, broke the pots and pans and set fire to the monastery. When a bhikkhu from Rajagaha told the Buddha about this, the Buddha said that it would have been much better for Thera Mahakassapa to live alone than to live with a foolish companion. Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 61: If a person seeking a companion cannot find one who is better than or equal to him, let him resolutely go on alone; there can be no companionship with a fool. .... S: In Burlingame's full commentary to the story which includes a story of the past when the same novice (then a monkey)also carried a grudge after being rebuked, the Buddha says: "It were better for my son Kassapa to live alone than to live with such a simpleton." I still tend to think that both meanings are implied - the deep Dhamma meaning of "living alone" at this moment, but also here, pointing to how living with someone who is trying to burn the place down is not going to be sappaya (suitable) sampajjana. ... >At the end of' the discourse, the bhikkhu from Rajagaha attained Sotapatti Fruition. ... S: Yes, I'm sure he didn't become a sotapanna from just learning to avoid the company of someone who was trying to cause trouble, but must have understood the deep meaning of living alone and developing insight. ------------ ------ >S: >In other words, surely it's by developing more and more right understanding and other wholesome tendencies, we're less and less 'tainted' by such views. >C: I do not understand your statement. [bummers] ... >S:What I meant was that the more confidence and understanding is developed about what is good and right, the less influenced we are by others' contrary ideas about what is good and right. For a simple example, we don't tell lies and we have confidence that this is right, so even if we have colleagues or family members who suggest that 'white lies are good' or that one should cheat one's company or something, we won't be influenced by such words or examples. ---------- K:> As usual, Sarah says it much better than I ever could. And so the only point I am trying to stress is that, when there is right understanding, there are no conventional concerns about fools and the avoidance of fools. There are only dhammas. I suspect that anyone who insists there is a conventional Dhamma - as well as an ultimate one - may be missing this point. ... S: You're right of course (except for your first sentence!!). In an ultimate sense, what is sappaya also has to refer to this moment. By natural decisive support or sappaya sampajanna, either right understanding will arise or not. It's not a matter of 'doing' or 'changing' anything, but there can be an understanding of what is suitable for such understanding now as well. All by conditions, of course... ... S: > Even the Buddha had plenty of contact with 'fools', but like water on a lotus leaf, all wrong views and other defilements would not affect him for an instant in an adverse way. > An interesting example to discuss and consider.... Metta Sarah ======= #104328 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] maggaphala is it kamma or kammavipaka? sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Mon, 11/1/10, truth_aerator wrote: >Is magga, kamma or kammavipaka? >Is phala, kamma or kammavipaka? ... S: the magga cittas are kamma and the succeeding phala cittas are the vipaka (or kammavipaka) of that kamma. This is the one instance when the kamma brings immediate fruit. Metta Sarah ========= #104329 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding jonoabb Hi KenO (104310) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > > Initially I thought with samadhi and samantha are the similar. Then happen to listen to the tapes on 12 Oct 05 e audio tapes. There was a discussion on jhanas, samatha and samadhi. I realise I have made mistakes in the definition of these two terms.. Hence i corrected the term on another email which I sent to Alex earlier. > =============== Sorry, but I didn't see your other email in time! > =============== I appreciate a lot the discussion with you and Sarah recently on sakkayditthi and some of the terms which I have not understand clearly. With the addition of listening to the recordings, the terms are clearer now. Its important to know the pali meanings/terms correctly. > =============== Yes, I agree with that. But it takes a lot of listening/reading and reflection to understand all the various terms. Overall knowledge and understanding can increase only incrementally. > =============== > On samatha, it arise with every kusala, may or may not with panna. > =============== Yes, if by samatha is meant the kusala mental factor of passadhi (tranquility). But the expression "samatha bhavana" usually connotes samatha with panna. > =============== I felt a lot of misunderstanding is that samadhi is the practise of calm. This is because of the many suttas that show the attaintment of the 1st to 4th jhanas before arising of enlightenment. It makes people believe one must attain jhanas before enlightenment or practise samadhi to develop jhanas. However, it is not jhanas that eradicate defilements, it is panna. Without panna, one will not withdrawn from sensual pleasure, without the withdrawal from sensual pleasure, one cannot attain jhanas. So no matter whether it is mundane jhanas or jhanas practise by non-Buddhist practitioners, panna must arise for one to enter into jhanas. > =============== Yes. The development of samatha/jhana is a matter of the development of kusala rather than of concentration. At higher levels of samatha, concentration becomes more prominent, but by this stage the knowledge of the difference between kusala and subtle akusala is well established. Jon #104330 From: "Mike" Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verse 61 was My Conclusion upon contemplation mikenz66 Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > KenH: As usual, Sarah says it much better than I ever could. And so the only point I am trying to stress is that, when there is right understanding, there are no conventional concerns about fools and the avoidance of fools. There are only dhammas. I suspect that anyone who insists there is a conventional Dhamma - as well as an ultimate one - may be missing this point. Mike: Of course, this goes both ways. Insisting on using ultimate terms where concepts may be a more useful tool might be seen as missing some rather important points. The Path may be divided into sila, samadhi, and panna. In the sila and samadhi subdivisions concepts such as "good" and "bad" and concepts such as "breath" or "kasina" are useful. Metta Mike #104331 From: "Mike" Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) mikenz66 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > S: True. But what sort of understanding are we talking about? > > If there is any trying to get a result > > Alex: Meditation teachers also warn against craving for results. Mike: I agree. This is something that all teachers warn about, and all students start to see sooner or later. > > S: or to "use" anything for this purpose, it is not the path. > > Alex: Even properly using Buddha Dhamma? Didn't He teach us the Dhamma to be used as a raft for crossing the sea to the yonder shore? Mike: Yes, the kamma that leads to the end of kamma... AN 4.235 Ariyamagga Sutta "And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma." Metta Mike #104332 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] maggaphala is it kamma or kammavipaka? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Alex) - In a message dated 1/10/2010 7:33:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Alex, --- On Mon, 11/1/10, truth_aerator wrote: >Is magga, kamma or kammavipaka? >Is phala, kamma or kammavipaka? ... S: the magga cittas are kamma and the succeeding phala cittas are the vipaka (or kammavipaka) of that kamma. This is the one instance when the kamma brings immediate fruit. Metta Sarah ================================== Sarah, this strikes me as quite odd. Kamma is cetana/intention. That cannot be what magga is. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104333 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:03 pm Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, The development of calm could be undertaken also by people before the Buddhas time. Absorption was the highest degree of kusala which could be attained before the Buddhas enlightenment. The development of insight however, can only be taught by a Buddha. He taught the truth of impermanence, suffering, dukkha, and non-self, anatt. What is called a person or an ego is only a temporary combination of mental phenomena and physical phenomena which arise and then fall away immediately. Through the development of insight there can be the direct experience of the truth and the eradication of defilements at the attainment of enlightenment. When, however, understanding of realities is only theoretical, the truth of impermanence, dukkha and anatt is not grasped; there is still clinging to concepts and ideas of persons, the ego, the world. As I explained in chapter 3, there are two kinds of truths: the conventional truth and the ultimate truth. Conventional truth is the world of people and of the things around us, the world of houses, trees and cars, thus the things we have always been familiar with. When we study the Buddhas teachings we learn about ultimate truth. Ultimate realities are mental phenomena, cittas and their accompanying mental factors, and physical phenomena. Nibbna is an ultimate reality but this can only be experienced when enlightenment is attained. Seeing is an ultimate reality, a citta which experiences visible object through the eye-sense. Seeing can only arise when there are eye-sense and visible object, it arises because of its own conditions. The same is true for hearing and the other sense impressions. There is only one citta at a time which experiences one object. After seeing, hearing and the other sense impressions there are kusala cittas and akusala cittas. Kusala cittas with generosity may arise, or akusala cittas with attachment, aversion or stinginess. All these realities arise because of their own conditions. There is no self who can control these realities or cause their arising. They arise just for a moment and then they fall away immediately. Because of ignorance we do not grasp the true nature of realities, their nature of impermanence, dukkha and non-self. Ignorance covers up the truth. Insight, the direct understanding of realities, is developed in order to eliminate ignorance and wrong view. Direct understanding of realities is different from theoretical understanding, but theoretical understanding is the foundation for direct understanding. ****** Nina. #104334 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verse 61 was My Conclusion upon contemplation kenhowardau Hi Mike, -------- <. . .> KH: > > And so the only point I am trying to stress is that, when there is right understanding, there are no conventional concerns about fools and the avoidance of fools. There are only dhammas. I suspect that anyone who insists there is a conventional Dhamma -as well as an ultimate one - may be missing this point. Mike: > Of course, this goes both ways. Insisting on using ultimate terms where concepts may be a more useful tool might be seen as missing some rather important points. -------- Yes, I have been told that by various knowledgeable people over the years, and I suspect I *am* missing some important points. But what exactly they are, and how important, I don't know. ----------------- M: > The Path may be divided into sila, samadhi, and panna. In the sila and samadhi subdivisions concepts such as "good" and "bad" and concepts such as "breath" or "kasina" are useful. ----------------- The Path is Magga-citta. Therefore, when you say the Path can be divided into sila, samadhi, and panna, you must mean that Magga-citta can be divided into those things. (As it clearly can.) But all three subdivisions are found in the same, one, moment of consciousness. And Path consciousness always has a paramattha dhamma as its object - never a concept. As far as I can see, it is this ultimately real path that we learn about from Dhamma studies, not a conventional one. So tell me, what am I missing? :-) Ken H #104335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] maggaphala is it kamma or kammavipaka? nilovg Dear Alex (and Howard), Op 11-jan-2010, om 3:13 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Is magga, kamma or kammavipaka? ------- N:maggacitta is a very high degree of kusala citta. It is of the intensity of kusala kamma, a powerful kamma. It is of such power that it produces its result in the same process, and this is not the case of other kinds of kusala kamma. -------- > A: Is phala, kamma or kammavipaka? ------- N: It is result, vipaaka. Better avoid the expression kammavipaka, we have to distinguish kamma and vipaaka. Nina. #104336 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 10-jan-2010, om 23:23 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > I have a happy feeling reading > cites and messages about how Abhidhamma is well fit with anatman. > Truth is, at least on my side, reflection of non -self is able to > add enthusiasm in the practice in a more immediate way. Maybe it is > just my case, I'm not sure. When I have enter in this list I missed > reading more things about abhidhamma and non -self; although for sure > it was only my own impatience at all :) --------- N: There is also abhidhamma teaching in the suttas. You may like the following quote from Survey (p. 389): We read in the Kindred Sayings( IV, Sayatana vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch III, 193, Udyin): (end quote). Nina. #104337 From: "santa_esi09" Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 9. santa_esi09 Dear Nina, Actually, I have been confused with Abhidhamma's statement regarding the ultimate realities. As we know, Abhidhamma mentions four ultimate realities, namely nibbana, citta, cetasika and rupa. When you mention that nibbana, seeing, hearing and other sense impressions as the ultimate realities, it also resemblse the four realities stated in the Abhidhamma. It is generally acceptable that nibbana is considered as the ultimate reality considering it as the final liberation from illusive world. However, although the MERE seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking represents the real nature of phenomena without getting involved with the self notion,I still wonder why these are also the ultimate realities for they are also still within the conditioned things, and not unconditioned things. I would be good if you could explain it further.. Metta, /S.Santa. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > The development of calm could be undertaken also by people before the > Buddha's time. Absorption was the highest degree of kusala which > could be attained before the Buddha's enlightenment. The development > of insight however, can only be taught by a Buddha. He taught the > truth of impermanence, suffering, dukkha, and non-self, anatt. What > is called a person or an ego is only a temporary combination of > mental phenomena and physical phenomena which arise and then fall > away immediately. Through the development of insight there can be the > direct experience of the truth and the eradication of defilements at > the attainment of enlightenment. > When, however, understanding of realities is only theoretical, the > truth of impermanence, dukkha and anatt is not grasped; there is > still clinging to concepts and ideas of persons, the ego, the world. <...> #104338 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] maggaphala is it kamma or kammavipaka? sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Alex), --- On Mon, 11/1/10, upasaka@... wrote: --- On Mon, 11/1/10, truth_aerator wrote: >Is magga, kamma or kammavipaka? >Is phala, kamma or kammavipaka? ... >S: the magga cittas are kamma and the succeeding phala cittas are the vipaka (or kammavipaka) of that kamma. This is the one instance when the kamma brings immediate fruit. ============ ========= ========= ==== H:> Sarah, this strikes me as quite odd. Kamma is cetana/intention. That cannot be what magga is. ... S: You raise a good point. Yes, kamma is strictly speaking the cetana/intention accompanying the magga citta. There are 4 lokuttara kusala cittas (supramundane wholesome kinds of consciousness) which are of the strength of kamma-patha (able to bring results). These are: 1.path consciousness of stream-entry 2. ....of once-returning 3......of non-returning 4. .....of arahantship There are 4 lokuttara vipaaka cittas (supramundane resultant kinds of conscioususness - results of lokuttara kamma). These are: 1. fruition consciousness of stream-entry 2. ....of once-returning 3......of non-returning 4. .....of arahantship Hope this clarifies. Metta Sarah ====== #104339 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 9. sarahprocter... Dear S.Santa*, I'm glad to read your good questions. Welcome to DSG! Could I encourage you to give a brief (or long) introduction. Where do you live, for example? --- On Mon, 11/1/10, santa_esi09 wrote: >I still wonder why these are also the ultimate realities for they are also still within the conditioned things, and not unconditioned things. I would be good if you could explain it further.. ... S: The four paramattha dhammas are citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana. As you say, only nibbana is unconditioned. However, all paramattha dhammas exist in an absolute sense. They have characteristics which can be directly known by wisdom and are the true/real dhammas which cannot be reduced into components. I'm sure Nina (and others) will be adding more. Again, thank you for joining and asking good questions. Metta Sarah *p.s Is 'Santa' your first name that we should address you by? ============ #104340 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Vince, --- On Wed, 6/1/10, Vince wrote: > In the Milindapanha there is this description: > > "In the Blessed One's City of Dhamma the encircling walls > are > morality, the moats are conscience, the ramparts over the > city gates > are knowledge, the watch-towers are energy, the pillars are > faith, the > door-keepers are mindfulness, the cross roads are the > Suttantas, the > places where three or four roads meet is the Abhidhamma, > the law-court > is the Vinaya, the streetway is the foundations of > mindfulness." > > so just I was trying to understand this cross-road. > On my side now it's enough of asking about the abhidhamma > focus. From > now I will try to learn about abhidhamma itself. ... S: A great description from Milindapanha. Could we say that whichever sutta we read points to the same dhammas as expounded in the Abhidhamma. In this sense, all the suttas meet here? The path is satipatthana, the foundations of mindfulness. So then we need to hear, consider and understand the objects of mindfulness appearing now. We could discuss these further if you like. Metta Sarah ======== #104341 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:02 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 9. nilovg Dear S Santa, Op 11-jan-2010, om 10:49 heeft santa_esi09 het volgende geschreven: > It is generally acceptable that nibbana is considered as the > ultimate reality considering it as the final liberation from > illusive world. However, although the MERE seeing, hearing, > smelling, tasting, touching and thinking represents the real nature > of phenomena without getting involved with the self notion,I still > wonder why these are also the ultimate realities for they are also > still within the conditioned things, and not unconditioned things. ------- N: As Sarah explained nibbaana is the unconditioned ultimate reality. Citta, cetasika and ruupa are conditioned ultimate realities, they arise because of conditions and then fall away. They are paramattha dhammas, translated as ultimate or absolute realities. This means: true and real in the highest sense. Concepts such as persons or cars are made up by our thinking, these are not true in the highest sense. They cannot be directly experienced, they are only objects of thinking. Seeing is real, it is a paramattha dhamma. It has its own characteristic, no matter how we name it, be it in English, Thai or any language. It experiences visible object, that is its inalterable characteristic. Anger and generosity are real, they are paramattha dhammas. They each have their own characteristic, no matter how we name them. Intellectual understanding of paramattha dhammas is the foundation for understanding developed to the degree of direct understanding. Direct understanding investigates the characteristics of paramattha dhammas as they appear one at a time through the appropriate doorways. Then there is no need to think about them or name them. They can be directly understood and this leads to detachment from the idea of self. ***** Nina. #104342 From: han tun Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi hantun1 Dear Sarah (Chew), Sarah wrote: Apologies for a late response. I found the comments Chew shared very interesting and Han's PTS note helpful as well. I wasn't aware of these different meanings of "desana". I couldn't find the Vism ref. easily - could you give me the ref in Nanamoli's translation (if either of you have this)? Thanks in advance. Also, Han, do you have any other text series you'd like to share for the New Year? Just if you have time and it's not a burden. Best wishes to you and your family. Metta Sarah -------------------- Han: It was about Vism. I, 126 (page 43). Purification is of four kinds: purification by the Teaching, purification by restraint, purification by search, and purification by reviewing. Catubbidhaa hi suddhi desanaa suddhi, sa.mvara suddhi, pariye.t.thi suddhi, paccavekkha.na suddhi. Chew said, [Sayadaw U Silananda said in his talks, desanaa here means "Confession", it is not "Teaching".] I agreed with Sayadaw U Silananda. If you have your views please let us know. ------------------- Han: I do not have much to write for DSG now-a-days, because the level of discussion at DSG is very high for me. Ajahn Sujin, Nina, Sarah, and others are very correct in the interpretation of the Buddha's Teachings, especially on the Anattaa doctrine. It is too correct that I cannot follow. It is like Elementary school level and the Doctorate level. I am still at the Elementary school level, and I am quite comfortable and happy at that level. I am writing regularly at JourneyToNibbana Discussion Group. As you know, U Htoo Naing left JTN with me and it became my responsibility to keep it going. Most of the messages there are written by me. If you have time please click on the following link and read some of what I am writing there. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JourneyToNibbana/messages Respectfully, Han #104343 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi ashkenn2k Dear Han Do you know where is U Htoo Naing now. I always wonder how is he doing. With metta Ken O >------------ ------- > >Han: I do not have much to write for DSG now-a-days, because the level of discussion at DSG is very high for me. Ajahn Sujin, Nina, Sarah, and others are very correct in the interpretation of the Buddha's Teachings, especially on the Anattaa doctrine. It is too correct that I cannot follow. It is like Elementary school level and the Doctorate level. I am still at the Elementary school level, and I am quite comfortable and happy at that level. > >I am writing regularly at JourneyToNibbana Discussion Group. As you know, U Htoo Naing left JTN with me and it became my responsibility to keep it going. Most of the messages there are written by me. If you have time please click on the following link and read some of what I am writing there. > >http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/JourneyToN ibbana/messages > >Respectfully, >Han > #104344 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi nilovg Dear Han, Thank you for sharing, I read about the Dhaniyasutta. Is it a good idea to select now and then something you have written and post it here as well? Nina. Op 11-jan-2010, om 14:12 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I am writing regularly at JourneyToNibbana Discussion Group. As you > know, U Htoo Naing left JTN with me and it became my responsibility > to keep it going. Most of the messages there are written by me. If > you have time please click on the following link and read some of > what I am writing there. #104345 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi nilovg Dear Han, Ken O, Op 11-jan-2010, om 15:05 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Do you know where is U Htoo Naing now. I always wonder how is he > doing. ------ n: So do I, I asked before. Nina. #104346 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >Don't waste any moment. True. But there are more and less suitable occasions. It is one thing to try to be mindful of namarupa in the busy kitchen while doing many tasks simultaneously. It is different from observing namarupa in access or higher concentration while sitting in seclusion. Certain objects may be decisive support conditions for latent tendencies to arise. It is hard for horny guys not to lose mindfulness in a strip club. > KO: hmm, you sound like giving yourself excuses and excuses and evade the real stuff :-). Your analogy is like comparing when some of monks are listening to the dhamma and they are enlighten after that. They are busy listening, in fact very busying listening, yet they could be enlighted :-). It is not the place, not the act but rather the understanding. If there is mindfulness, do you think the horny guys will go to the strip club :- P. > >On that note. In anapanasati I do not try to focus on the breath. With more awareness of the body, the mind naturally settles on the breath - a natural rupic phenomena! All normal people breath. Try not to breath for 2 or so minutes :) . KO: Also all normal people also see, are you seeing? Cheers Ken O #104347 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:30 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 2 No 2 ashkenn2k Dear all The details are the condition that defilements appear. When someone likes a belt he likes the general appearance, the image, and the details. If all belts were the same, if there were no variety of them, the details would not be different. However, there are many kinds of belts and they are different as to the details. The details condition the arising of different kinds of defilements. Question: If we don’t cling to concepts, I fear that we don’t know that this is a pen. Sujin: That is not so. We should know realities in accordance with the truth. What appears through the eyes falls away and then there are mind-door process cittas, which arise afterwards and know a concept. Paññå (wisdom) should know realities as they are. It should know what is visible object, which appears through the eye-door. It should know that the experience of visible object is different from the moment that citta knows a concept. Thus we can become detached from the idea that visible object which appears are beings, people, or things; we can become detached from that which is the foundation of clinging. We should understand that when it is known that there is a man, a woman, beings, or different people, the object is an image or concept known through the mind-door. When we develop satipaììhåna we should know, in order to be able to realize the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, the characteristics of the realities just as they naturally appear. It should be known that paramattha dhammas are not concepts. One should continue to develop paññå when realities appear through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense, and mind-door. to be continued Ken O #104348 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:35 am Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 ashkenn2k Dear all Q. : What should a layman do who wants to be free from dukkha? He may see that there is such a great deal of dukkha, that it is so terrible and that it occurs all the time, because people are born and they have to be born again and again. Is there a short way to become free from dukkha? S. : When someone says that there is such a great deal of dukkha, that it is so terrible, there is bound to be wrong view which clings to the concept of self. Only if there is no wrong view of self can dukkha become less. The Buddha explained that all the different kinds of dukkha can be eliminated according as defilements are eradicated stage by stage. So long as defilements have not been eradicated there have to be countless rebirths. So long as there is birth there is dukkha. The sotåpanna who has attained the first stage of enlightenment and has eradicated defilements in accordance with that stage, will not be reborn more than seven times. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (II, Nidåna vagga, Ch XIII, § 1, The tip of the nail): Thus have I heard. On a certain occasion the Exalted One was staying near Såvatthí at the Jeta Grove, in Anåthapiùèika’s Park. Then the Exalted One took up a little pinch of dust on the tip of his finger-nail and said to the monks: ”What do you think, monks? Whether is this pinch of dust that I have taken up on my finger-nail the greater, or the mighty earth?” “The latter, lord, the mighty earth is the greater. Infinitely small is this pinch of dust taken up by the Exalted One on his finger-nail, not by a hundredth part, nor by a thousandth part, not by a hundred thousandth part does it equal the mighty earth when set beside it--this pinch of dust taken up by the Exalted One on his finger-nail.” “Even so, monks, for the ariyan disciple who has won vision, for the person who has understanding this is the greater dukkha, to wit, that which for him is wholly perished, wholly finished; little is the dukkha that remains, not worth the hundredth part, not worth the thousandth part, not worth the hundred thousandth part when measured with the former dukkha which for him is wholly perished, wholly finished, to wit, a term of seven times 4. So great in good, monks, is it to be wise in the Dhamma; so great a good is it to have gained the eye of the Dhamma.” Since the number of rebirths of ordinary people, who have not attained enlightenment, is countless, the dukkha which arises because of birth must accordingly be immeasurable, as you suggested in your question. to be continued Ken O #104349 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 ashkenn2k Dear all let me comment on << Is there a short way to become free from dukkha?>> KO: When one thinks to have a short way to be free from dukkha is actually having expectations to be enlighted as quickly as possible. This is not possible because having expectations would only condition more lobha which condition more dukkha. Dukkha is just another characterisitcs of conditional dhamma. Understand dukkha as it arise in the present moment. Understand it even if the pain is wretching, difficult to bear, and who bears it. No one at all. It is just pain. Ken O > >Dear all > >Q. : What should a layman do who wants to be free from dukkha? He may see that there is such a great deal of dukkha, that it is so terrible and that it occurs all the time, because people are born and they have to be born again and again. Is there a short way to become free from dukkha? > >S. : When someone says that there is such a great deal of dukkha, that it is so terrible, there is bound to be wrong view which clings to the concept of self. Only if there is no wrong view of self can dukkha become less. The Buddha explained that all the different kinds of dukkha can be eliminated according as defilements are eradicated stage by stage. So long as defilements have not been eradicated there have to be countless rebirths. So long as there is birth there is dukkha. The sotåpanna who has attained the first stage of enlightenment and has eradicated defilements in accordance with that stage, will not be reborn more than seven times. > >We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (II, Nidåna vagga, Ch XIII, § 1, The tip of the nail): > >Thus have I heard. On a certain occasion the Exalted One was staying near Såvatthí at the Jeta Grove, in Anåthapiùèika’s Park. Then the Exalted One took up a little pinch of dust on the tip of his finger-nail and said to the monks: ”What do you think, monks? Whether is this pinch of dust that I have taken up on my finger-nail the greater, or the mighty earth?” > >“The latter, lord, the mighty earth is the greater. Infinitely small is this pinch of dust taken up by the Exalted One on his finger-nail, not by a hundredth part, nor by a thousandth part, not by a hundred thousandth part does it equal the mighty earth when set beside it--this pinch of dust taken up by the Exalted One on his finger-nail.” > >“Even so, monks, for the ariyan disciple who has won vision, for the person who has understanding this is the greater dukkha, to wit, that which for him is wholly perished, wholly finished; little is the dukkha that remains, not worth the hundredth part, not worth the thousandth part, not worth the hundred thousandth part when measured with the former dukkha which for him is wholly perished, wholly finished, to wit, a term of seven times 4. > >So great in good, monks, is it to be wise in the Dhamma; so great a good is it to have gained the eye of the Dhamma.” > >Since the number of rebirths of ordinary people, who have not attained enlightenment, is countless, the dukkha which arises because of birth must accordingly be immeasurable, as you suggested in your question. > >to be continued > >Ken O > > > #104350 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > > > >Don't waste any moment. True. But there are more and less suitable occasions. It is one thing to try to be mindful of namarupa in the busy kitchen while doing many tasks simultaneously. It is different from observing namarupa in access or higher concentration while sitting in seclusion. Certain objects may be decisive support conditions for latent tendencies to arise. It is hard for horny guys not to lose mindfulness in a strip club. > > > KO: hmm, you sound like giving yourself excuses and excuses and >evade the real stuff :-). Your analogy is like comparing when some >of monks are listening to the dhamma and they are enlighten after >that. They are busy listening, in fact very busying listening, yet >they could be enlighted :-). It is possible to achieve stream entry while listening to the Buddha. The question remains if it is applicable to us. Maybe those people already have done something additional prior to seeing the Buddha. Maybe those people are 2 highest types that can awaken through listening... I do hope that you are right and it is possible to awaken (at least till stream entry) without samatha work. With metta, Alex #104351 From: "Dhammadipa" Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'dhamma' in Theravada abhidhamma and Nagarjuna dhdipa Dear Sarah and all, Thanks for the links. I read some of them and they seem logical. However I need little time to think, and see them in more details. With Metta, Dhammadipa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Dhammadipa, > > Welcome to DSG! #104352 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 truth_aerator Dear KenO, Sarah, Nina all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear all > > let me comment on << Is there a short way to become free from dukkha?>> > > KO: When one thinks to have a short way to be free from dukkha is actually having expectations to be enlighted as quickly as possible. This is not possible because having expectations would only condition more lobha which condition more dukkha. Dukkha is just another characterisitcs of conditional dhamma. Understand dukkha as it arise in the present moment. Understand it even if the pain is wretching, difficult to bear, and who bears it. No one at all. It is just pain. > > > Ken O With all due respect, please don't slander the Dhamma. Don't try to convince anyone that Dhamma is weak, impotent and doesn't work fast! Only those who follow the wrong path or have too many defilements have a longer journey due to their, not Dhamma's fault. Think about the conditioning that you are giving yourself. By saying that Awakening can't occur rapidly (thus no need to really try hard, there are many aeons to do that). The more you sweat in in patipada, the less you bleed in samsara. === Perhaps the most surprising element in right exertion is the role played by desire, which is usually associated with the craving that acts as a cause of suffering. We will treat this topic in more detail under the bases for success [II/D], and simply note here that the Buddha recognized that desire can be either skillful or unskillful, and that he freely admitted that skillful desire is a necessary factor in the path to the end of suffering and stress. The most important point in developing right exertion is to realize that the effort to abandon unskillful qualities and to develop skillful qualities must be skillful itself. Unskillful efforts at eradicating unskillful states, even if well intended, can many times exacerbate problems instead of solving them. Treating hatred with hatred, for instance, is less effective than treating it with the kind of understanding developed in the second stage of frames-of-reference meditation [II/B], which sees into causes and effects, and learns how to manipulate causes properly so as to get the desired effects. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#part2-c Many popular Western writings criticize the four qualities listed in the bases of power " desire, persistence (effort), intent (will), and discrimination (the discriminating mind) " as enemies of proper meditation, both in that they interfere with the calming of the mind and are antithetical to the goal of the Unfabricated, which lies beyond desire, effort, and the categories of discrimination. The first part of the extended formula deals with the first of these criticisms. There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' (Similarly with concentration founded on persistence, intent, and discrimination.) This passage shows that the problem lies, not in the desire, effort, intent, or discrimination, but in the fact that these qualities can be unskillfully applied or improperly tuned to their task. If they were absent, the practice " if it could be called a practice " would stagnate from loss of direction or motivation. If they ran wild, they would interfere with mindful concentration. So the trick is not to deny them, but to tune them skillfully so that they will help focus the mind on the present moment. Thus, for instance, in the practice of meditation, as with any skill, it is important not to focus desire too strongly on the results one hopes to get, for that would interfere with the mind's ability to focus on giving rise to the causes leading to those results. If, instead, one focuses desire on putting the causes in proper order in the present moment, desire becomes an indispensable part of the process of mastery. Passage §67 deals with the second criticism " that desire, etc., are antithetical to the goal " by showing that these qualities are necessary for anyone who pursues a path, but are automatically abandoned on reaching the goal at the path's end. The image of the path is important here, for it carries important implications. First, the path is not the goal; it is simply the way there, just as the road to the Grand Canyon should not be confused with the Grand Canyon itself. Even though many stretches of the road bear no resemblance to the Grand Canyon, that does not mean that the road does not lead there. Secondly, the path of practice does not cause the goal, it simply leads there, just as neither the road to the Grand Canyon nor the act of walking to the Grand Canyon can cause the Grand Canyon to be. The goal at the end of the Buddhist path is unfabricated, and therefore no amount of desire or effort can bring it into being. Nevertheless, the path to the goal is a fabricated process [§105], and in that process desire, effort, intent, and discrimination all have an important role to play, just as the effort of walking plays a role in arriving at the Grand Canyon. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#part2-d With metta, Alex #104353 From: A T Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:57 pm Subject: Some thoughts on Dhamma truth_aerator Hello all, The totality of world as experience can be divided into mental (nāma) and material (rūpa) factors. Mental factors know and will, while material factors do not. Mental factors experience through sensation, perception, volitions and consciousness. Matter (rūpa) can be known, but it doesn’t know. It does not have ethical qualities like the mind. Mind can will ethical or unethical things, matter does things in space. 5 external sense objects are 5 categories of matter. Matter is made of earth, water, fire, air great primary elements and qualities derived from them. Tangible matter is perceived by the tactile sense faculty as: hardness, softness, roughness, smoothness, heaviness, lightness, hot, cold and pressure. Mind cognizes the fact of cohesion (water). What we take for a singular entity cognizing a singular world, are actually 6 sense organs cognizing their respective 6 types of objects. There is eye-faculty and visible (color & shape), ear-faculty and sounds, nose-faculty and odors, tongue-faculty and tastes, tactile-faculty and touches, mind-faculty and mind objects. Any event can be classified in these 12 categories (6 sense organs and 6 sense objects). When a person holds a fragrant fruit, then at that moment there is working of tactile-faculty and tangible object which is the hardness of the fruit, there is eye-faculty and sight of the object, there also may be nose-faculty and aroma of the fruit. The 5 sense organs themselves and 5 sense objects are material, the mind and mental objects are mental. It is a natural for sense-organs to be “attacked” by unpleasant objects. Don’t get angry with nature. Emotional desire for things to be other than the way they already are, causes mental suffering, resistance and dislike. What has happened, has happened. Past cannot be changed, but the present reaction (peaceful or unpleasant) toward it can eventually be changed. No need to do anything hurtful to someone you are angry with. No matter how young s/he is, all youth ends in old-age and life ends in death. For most people, if they don’t die first, health ends in sickness. So have some compassion! Also when we think “why did s/he do it to me”, remember that that emotion is because we have a sense of personal importance of “I”. The consciousness, mind, or mentality is not a singular phenomenon belonging to one person. It is made of different consciousness arisen through different processes, each performing different functions. Eye consciousness is dependent on eye-faculty and color. Ear consciousness is dependent on ear-faculty and sound. Nose consciousness is dependent or nose-faculty and smell. Tongue-consciousness is dependent on tongue and flavor. Tactile consciousness is dependent on tactile-faculty and tangible object. Mind consciousness is dependent on mind-faculty and mind object. The 5 sense faculties for 5 sense consciousness are: dissociation, prenascence, presence, non-disappearance, support, and faculty conditions. The 5 sense objects for 5 sense consciousness are: prenascence, presence, non-disappearance, and object condition. The previous instance of mind to the next instance of mind is: Proximity, contiguity, absence, disappearance, (association for conascent factors) and (repetition for javana). It is mistake to believe that “I see”. It is just working eye-faculty, external object and other relevant conditions arising together to produce “seeing”. If one of the required conditions is not met, then there will not be seeing (eye-consciousness). When factors are right, the corresponding consciousness occurs, and no wish to the contrary can stop it. With consciousness other mental factors such as sensation, perception, volition toward it, co-arise. If the causes are to see, hear, smell, taste, touch or think a pleasant or unpleasant thing are set, then no wish to the contrary can stop it. Nobody can control reality in a sense of “Let me cognize only pleasant, never unpleasant. Let me see only beautiful, never ugly sights. Let me hear harmonious, never grating sounds. Let me experience desirable things, never undesirable”. This is a danger and bondage of conditioned existence. Events happen due to causes and conditions, rather than anyone’s commands. Reflecting on the world as a whole made of parts will decrease the infatuation and attachment to it. The more we desire the things to be other than the way they are, the more suffering is experienced. Desiring something, already involves discontent and dissatisfaction with the way conditions are. The emotion grief (domanassa) is often far greater than the bare physical pain (kāya-dukkha-vedanā) itself. Some worldly conditions are: Gain and loss, status and disgrace, praise and censure, pleasure and pain, health and sickness, youth and old age, life and death. No matter what good things happen now (gain, praise, pleasure, youth, health, wealth, etc), they all happen due to causes and conditions – and will not last. When causes cease, the (effect) situation ceases. Every worldly condition belongs to causes and conditions. No need to emotionally reject the unpleasant wordly conditions either. No one brought them on, and no one receives them. It is just natural causes and effects playing out. Good and bad worldly events will pass. When someone is enjoying good fortune, it is due past good kamma (volitional actions), so have sympathy (muditā) that someone is enjoying it. If you want worldly happiness, doing good kamma is the way. When someone suffers misfortune, have compassion (karuṇā) for them, it is a result of their past bad kamma. We have been in good and bad worldly conditions in our current and previous lives. As long as there is life; misfortune, loss, pain, can happen. Before doing any action it is good to consider the motivation behind it. Is it done rooted in 3 unwholesome roots of greed, anger or delusion? Or is it rooted in 3 wholesome roots of non-greed, non-hatred, non-delusion. Also these things are good to consider during, and after having done a deed in body, speech or mind. Satisfying sensual desires is like scratching an itching skin that itches due to some skin disease. When one has scratched it, the itching is temporarily gone. But very soon it will itch again, and in due time one will have wounds from scratching. Is that happiness? Is it happiness to be discontent with what is so as to desire and long for (and struggle to get it) something else over and over again? Maintaining/feeding the body and the mind, again and again… With metta, Alex #104354 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:05 pm Subject: Sweet Ceasing... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Gradually Deeper Degree of Ceasing: In the 1st meditative jh ana absorption, all sense-desire ceases... In the 2nd meditative jh ana absorption, conceptual thinking ceases. In the 3rd meditative jh ana absorption, enraptured Joy ceases. In the 4th meditative jh ana absorption, breathing in and out ceases. In the sphere of infinite space, experience of form & sense reaction ceases. In the sphere of infinite consciousness, experience of infinite space ceases. In the sphere of nothingness, experience of infinite consciousness ceases. In the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, nothingness ceases... When attaining complete mental cessation, all perception and sensation ceases. These 9 sublime states have been perfectly formulated by the blessed Buddha, who knew and saw directly. therefore should we recite them together for the future advantage, welfare and happiness for both the human beings and devas... <..> Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 33 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html For the complete details of the entrance to these exalted states: see: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. Chapter III-XI: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104355 From: han tun Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi hantun1 Dear Ken O, and Nina, I do not know where U Htoo Naing is. He did not contact me at all since he left. Han #104356 From: Vince Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:21 pm Subject: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Sarah you wrote: > S: A great description from Milindapanha. > Could we say that whichever sutta we read points to the same > dhammas as expounded in the Abhidhamma. In this sense, all the > suttas meet here? The path is satipatthana, the foundations of mindfulness. > So then we need to hear, consider and understand the objects of mindfulness appearing now. ...not sure. I have found "the roads" is used is some places as a simile for the 4 elements composing Reality. But I'm not sure why the Milindapanha says "three OR four"... Why the doubt? ¿some ideas? here some suttas citing the roads as 4 elements: "I have given you a parable, monk, and so that you can understand it, this is the explanation: 'The city' is a name for the body, composed of the four great elements, born of mother and father, an accumulation of rice and gruel, impermanent, subject to abrasion, dissolution and disintegration. 'The six gates' denote the six internal sense-spheres.8 'The gatekeeper' denotes mindfulness. 'The two swift messengers' denote calm and insight.9 'The lord of the city' denotes consciousness. 'The cross-roads at the center' denotes the four great elements: the earth-element, the water-element, the fire-element, the air-element. 'The truthful report' denotes Nibbaana. 'The way they came,' monk, denotes the Noble Eightfold Path, that is to say Right View, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration." **SN 35.204 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.204.wlsh.html "Just as if, monks, a clever cow-butcher or his apprentice, having slaughtered a cow and divided it into portions, should be sitting at the junction of four high roads, in the same way, a monk reflects on this very body, as it is placed or disposed, by way of the material elements: "There are in this body the elements of earth, water, fire, and wind." **Satipatthana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanasatta/wheel019.html best wishes, Vince. #104357 From: Vince Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:25 pm Subject: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina thanks for the Sutta, yes it is very interesting. So I want to comment and ask some things: you wrote: > ...There is a way to find out whether one knows the truth of > realities or not. When a nma or rpa appears through one of the six > doors and pa can distinguish between the characteristic of nma > and the characteristic of rpa, their characteristics are known as > they are. Pa should be able to discern the different > characteristics of nma and of rpa when there is seeing, hearing, > smelling, tasting, experiencing tangible object or thinking. In this > way the meaning of anatt can be penetrated; the nma and rpa which > appear can be realized as anatt. then, a question about this penetration: by Panna one can discern the phenomena as anatta as only nama and rupa. Discernment by panna is of intuitive and direct nature, and for that reason it is different of intellectual understanding. However, when we read those detailed clear and penetrant analysis arising from the Abhidhamma, the Buddha or arhants, it gives us the impression of somebody who spend enough time observing the underlying nature of characteristics involved. First impression is not about somebody having an immediate and direct access to the anatta nature of phenomena but of somebody who is stabilized in such situation. Then I wonder if that's the portrait of panna as a constant and active agent knowing the world. I mean, if it can belong to somebody who is not in initial steps of progress. Well, at least I think it doesn't belong to somebody who has acquired progress by different ways of Abhidhamma. By panna somebody can know nibbana and the anatta nature of phenomena. However, it doesn't mean the acquisition of some stabilization of this situation, neither of an explicit understanding of phenomena in terms of "name.and.form". Explanations of phenomena as "name.and.form" it's of course a way to show their anatta nature. However, somebody can realize the anatta of phenomena without knowing Abhidhamma neither nama-rupa terms. In example, some person can contemplate phenomena like "empty", "not individual", "like a dream"... or whatever language-construction enough to arise in him the contemplation of phenomena as devoid of substance, and therefore only nama-and-rupa. And in this way panna also can act. Maybe later she will meet the Abhidhamma and she learn about nama-and-rupa, and then she will realize that what she already knows, here it is called "nama and rupa". I say this because name-and-form are dependent of consciousness. Then somebody can realize anatta without knowing Abhidhamma, and for this reason his intellectual understanding it would be directly focused to the anatta of consciousness instead the nama-rupa of phenomema. And I suspect it can be a problem of learn about how to conciliate Dependent Origination and the Abhidhamma teaching. In this sense, if you have some free time, please read the point 3 and note 11 of Chapter "Origination" of Nyanatiloka Mahathera: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanatiloka/wheel394.html#ch3 I put an extract: "3. Now we come to the third proposition, namely: Viana-paccaya nama-rupam: "Through consciousness the mental and physical phenomena are conditioned." The meaning of this proposition can be inferred from the Mahanidana Sutta (DN 15), where it is said: "If consciousness (viana) were not to appear in the mother's womb, would the mental and physical phenomena (nama-rupa) arise?"(11) [...] *(11) "All such translations of nama-rupa as "name and form," etc., are totally out of place. Nama-rupa = nama ca rupa ca (Majjh. Nik. No. 9), i.e. "the mental and the physical," apart from its application in the paticca-samuppada, is a name for the five groups of existence, namely: the four nama-kkhandhas or mental groups (feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness), and the rupa-kkhandha, or corporeality group. Here, in the paticca-samuppada, nama stands only for the three mental groups: feeling, perception, mental formations, whilst consciousness is singled out, in order to show that all mental and physical life of beings is dependent on it." If I understand well, N. Mahathera recommend not mixing things. One must be aware of dependence of nama-rupa regarding consciousness. Nama-rupa are so real because there is consciousness. Even when we claim the nature of consciousness are anatta and emptiness, it doesn't mean consciousness it's unreal: it only means anatta nature. Well, so I understand this is the subtile line in where the Abhidhamma explanation is working. I will be glad to read your comments. (I need a lot of lines to explain myself but you be so short as you prefer) > Then it can be understood what it means to have inward > peace, because citta does not become involved in outward matters, > such as self, people or beings. There is no longer the world one used > to cling to, the world outside, which is full of people and different > things. There is no longer what one used to take for a particular > person, for a thing, for self, all permanent and lasting. Whenever > sati arises pa can at that moment understand realities clearly, > and then there is inward peace, because there are no people, beings > or things. Whereas, when there are many people, many conceptions in > ones life, there is no peace. If someone sees a person he is > acquainted with or he has a particular relation with, he thinks, as > soon as he has seen him even for a moment, a long story about him. > If he sees a person he does not know, the story is short; he thinks > only for a little while about him and then the story is over. He > does not continue to think about him.> it can sounds really accurate. But when we read these things sometimes one can speculate if this a sad situation, when in fact it is the opposite thing. Very different of what many western philosophers says. In Dhamma, a better understanding makes grows true happiness because there is the knowledge of sadness as a -self construction. As happens in this video: we are knowing with higher detail and the experience is better in itself. (The probably attachment will be added by the self:) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qThEvnBc1qU best wishes, #104358 From: han tun Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: Thank you for sharing, I read about the Dhaniyasutta. Is it a good idea to select now and then something you have written and post it here as well? Han: What I am writing at JTN may not be the type for the active discussion at DSG. I write at JTN quietly just to share what I know with the members. But I will be most happy to re-post them at DSG if you have something to add. I always like your comments. They are very useful. They fill in the gaps in my knowledge [latest example being on the magga and phala as kamma or vipaaka?]. Besides, you do not ask me questions that I cannot answer. Since you mentioned about the Dhaniya sutta I assume that you have something to add. I will repost the Dhaniya series at DSG after I have completed it at JTN. Respectfully, Han #104359 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 ashkenn2k Dear Alex KO: We are not saying you cannot attain enlightenment or your dhamma is weak. We are saying thinking of quickening to get enlighted is lobha. One cannot hasten development as dhamma is anatta. Patience is needed. In reality, dukkha is only moment by moment. Because of not undersanding that citta arise one at a time, one take pain as self. for eg I am feeling painful now, One keep immerse in that pain and do not understanding it. At the moment of pain, there is no seeing, hearing or thinking, it is only because of conditioning, our thinking, our sanna that our body is in pain, we clings to it. >The most important point in developing right exertion is to realize that the effort to abandon unskillful qualities and to develop skillful qualities must be skillful itself. Unskillful efforts at eradicating unskillful states, even if well intended, can many times exacerbate problems instead of solving them. Treating hatred with hatred, for instance, is less effective than treating it with the kind of understanding developed in the second stage of frames-of-reference meditation [II/B], which sees into causes and effects, and learns how to manipulate causes properly so as to get the desired effects. KO: When panna arise, it is a skillful quality. During the arisen of panna, there is abandoning of unskillful qualities. Why beat about the bush to search for solutions when the solution is just understanding reailty as it arise. All akusala be it hatred, greed and ignorance must be eradicated by panna. The key which I have been saying is panna and this is the only quality you need to know about. KO: When you show the passage on development, its really lack of understanding. How could dhamma which is anatta be fabricated, could you now stop yourself from seeing when it arise, or hearing when it occurrs, or citta thinking about worlding matters. And this statement << 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.'>> the word desire of mine is full of micca ditthi. Could you honestly tell me any part of your aggregate is you or belongs to you. And how could one develop panna when the basis is already miccha ditthi. If you follow this teachings, you could in reality making more akusala cittas then kusala cittas. Cheers Ken O #104360 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:13 pm Subject: Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 ptaus1 Hi KenO, > KO: And this statement << 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.'>> the word desire of mine is full of micca ditthi. Could you honestly tell me any part of your aggregate is you or belongs to you. And how could one develop panna when the basis is already miccha ditthi. If you follow this teachings, you could in reality making more akusala cittas then kusala cittas. pt: This teaching is from the sutta SN 51.20: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn51/sn51.020.than.html Bhikkhu Bodhi translates it as "My desire..." Please restate your thoughts on this because at the moment it looks as if you're saying that the Buddha was teaching miccha ditthi here, and I doubt that's what you wanted to say. Thanks. Best wishes pt #104361 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 ashkenn2k Dear pt I, my and mine when use by Buddha is for teaching purposes. He knows clearly there is no self in dhamma. But when I, my and mine is used by modern teachers that where my doubts are With metta Ken O > >From: ptaus1 #104360 > > #104362 From: "santa_esi09" Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 9. santa_esi09 Dear Nina and Sarah, Thank for your great answers. Those certainly give me a more understanding to look at this point. I am sorry not to introduce myself first. I am a Buddhist novice from Indonesia. My name is Ven. Santacitto (in Indonesia, being samanera, normally I am called as Samanera Santacitto). Currently, I stay in Sri Lanka for the Buddhist study. I get the information of this Dhamma study from my friend, Ven. Dhammadipa from Bangladesh. I don't ask him further but I believe he has already joined this Dhamma study. Being a new, I still cannot understand well how to be good membership. Therefore, if there is a mistake in my part, I will be very glad to get advice and direction from all of you. With Metta, /S.Santacitto. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: #104339 > > #104363 From: "santa_esi09" Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 8. santa_esi09 Dear Nina, Here, I would like to raise three questions here and need your explanations. (1). You are of the opinion that the Buddha did not set up any rules that tranquil meditation is highly needed as a requirement for the development of insight meditation. However, as we see in the Rathavinitasutta of the Majjhimanikaya, among the seven stages of purification, the second is the purification of mind (cittavisuddhi). This sutta has explained how the seven stages are interconnected to each other and hand in hand helping a practitioner to attain the liberation. These seven stages have been further explained in detail in the Visuddhimagga. Examining this text, we can infer that the cittavisuddhi is the attainment of upacarasamadhi or jhana through tranquil meditation. If we accept this, then your opinion seem to have been contradiction with this. So I need your further clarification. (2). You mention about the calm gained through vipassana. Is it having the same characteristic with the development of tranquil meditation or it different? (3). While being equipped with the understanding of the Dhamma, is it possible that a person practices solely the tranquil meditation only or solely insight meditation only? I am sorry if my question especially the last one somewhat away from the topic you present. With Metta, /S.Santa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: #104296 > #104364 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:00 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 10. nilovg Dear friends, The object of insight, of direct understanding, is ultimate truth, not conventional truth. Conventional truth are concepts which are objects of thinking. For example, after seeing we think of the shape and form of a person or thing. That is not seeing, but thinking of concepts. A concept is not real in the ultimate sense. Ultimate realities have each their own characteristic which is unchangeable, and which can be directly experienced when it appears. Seeing is an ultimate reality, it has its own characteristic. It is real for everybody. Its name may be changed, but its characteristic cannot be changed. Anger is an ultimate reality, it has its own characteristic which can be experienced by everybody. In order to be able to develop direct understanding of ultimate realities it is essential to know the difference between ultimate realities and concepts. One does not have to avoid thinking of concepts, because the thinking itself is an ultimate reality which arises because of its own conditions and which has its own characteristic. Thus, thinking can be the object of understanding when it appears. Every reality which arises because of conditions can be the object of direct understanding. Since concepts are not real in the ultimate sense and do not have characteristics which can be directly experienced, they are not objects of direct understanding. How can direct understanding be developed? There has to be mindfulness or awareness of the reality appearing at the present moment in order that direct understanding of it can be developed. There are many levels of mindfulness. It is a wholesome mental factor which accompanies each kusala citta. It is heedful or non-forgetful of what is wholesome. When there is mindfulness, the opportunity for wholesomeness is not wasted by negligence or laziness. Mindfulness prevents one from committing unwholesome deeds, it is like a guard. There is mindfulness with generosity, with good moral conduct, and with the development of calm. In the development of calm there is mindfulness of the meditation subject, so that calm can develop. ****** Nina. #104365 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 9. sarahprocter... Dear Ven Santacitto (& Ven Dhammadipa), Thank you very much for your kind introduction. It's very interesting that you are from Indonesia, but staying and studying in Sri Lanka. May I ask where abouts in Sri Lanka you are staying? there are absolutely no mistakes on your part with regard to the membership. I'm sorry we didn't know how to address you before. I'm appreciating your good questions and keen interest in Dhamma study. Ven Dhammadipa has written a few letters. Ven Dhammadipa, thank you for introducing Ven Santacitto and I'm very interested to hear that you are from Bangladesh, residing in Sri Lanka too. With respect, Sarah ======= --- On Tue, 12/1/10, santa_esi09 wrote: #104362 #104366 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:45 am Subject: Re: Subject: PHANTASMS, no? sarahprocter... Dear Connie, I meant to ask you about this: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: >But ok, an 'actual definition' from PaliWords: ghost (m) - pisaaca; peta; amanussa. That kinda opens a bit of a grey area where we can talk about << "Some beings in the lower realms": such beings as the female spirits Uttaramaataa, Piya"nkaramaataa, Phussamittaa, Dhammaguttaa, etc., and other spirits who live in places outside the four planes of misery. For their bodies are of diverse colours, shapes, and sizes, and like humans their perception may be double-roted, triple-rooted, or rootless. .... S: I just couldn't understand this, could you? How can there be "beings in the lower realms" who live "outside the four planes of misery"? How can they be triple-rooted or even double-rooted? What am I missing? Perhaps the following: >But unlike the gods they are not powerful; they are powerless like low-class humans. They have trouble finding food and clothing and live oppressed by pain. Some are afflicted during the dark fortnight and happy during the bright fortnight. Therefore, because they have fallen from the heights of happiness, they are called "beings in the lower realms." ... S: Ah, they were reborn in happy realms and have somehow "fallen" during that life....hmmm.... How do you understand this? ... >Those among them who are triple-rooted can achieve comprehension of the Dhamma. Thus one time at daybreak the female spirit Piya"nkaramaaataa heard the Elder Anuruddha reciting the Dhamma and said (to her son Piya"nkara): > "Do not make a sound, Piya"nkara, > This bhikkhu is reciting passages of Dhamma, > Perhaps we can learn those passages > And practise for our true welfare. > We should refrain from harming beings > And should not tell conscious lies, > We should train ourselves in virtue > To be freed from the goblin realm." (S.X.6; i,209). > Having spoken thus to her little son, she attained the fruit of stream-entry that same day. Uttaramaataa became a stream-enterer after hearing the Dhamma from the Exalted One." - Mahaanidaana Cy. (p99) >> ... S: So she was actually in a woeful plane at the time.... Definitely something I'm missing... Also, do you have any access to the Mahaanidaana Cy here or are you quoting from another text? Metta Sarah ======= .... #104367 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Computer Problems sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Thanks, Sarah. :-) For the moment, the computer is okay - but only > after quite a struggle. Fortunately I had saved many (uncontaminated) files on > an external drive, which files I was able to restore, but there still was > much more to do. Now I'm checking on how to safely reinstall my back-up > software so that I can begin backing up anew. I'm hoping that once I format > the external drive, I'll be able to reinstall the backup software from the > disc that was used for installation of the software and subsequently for > restoring data. ... S: Hope all's installed and restored now. ... >One thing for sure: My next computer will be a MAC, and no > longer a pc!!! (I've had it with Windows-based systems!) ... S: Well, I went the other way after some frustrating MAC experiences, lol! Have had better luck with my pc. ... > I hope 2010 is wonderful year for you and all of us!! (Although there > are supposedly no "you" and no "us"and no years! Always good to begin the > year, and ain't no such thing as a year either(!!), conversing with > *fictions, eh? LOLOL!) > ------------------------------------------------------ S: Lol too.....yes just conversing with namas and rupas....in the end living alone, thinking alone, dying alone.... ... > * I don't actually believe that you and I and "this year" etc are utter > fictions in the same way and to the same degree as are selves, souls, and > unicorns. However, these are not elementary, separate, self-existent, > delineative realities or entities. Precisely, they are cross-temporal complexes of > more elementary phenomena, and they are known only through thinking and by > mental association of related but disparate phenomena (though it may seem > otherwise) and are even more matters of convention than are the underlying > phenomena you like to call "realities". ;-) .... S: Yes, just known through thinking at this moment. Without a moment of thinking now, no list, no people, no computer problems:-) ... > > The Aggregates are Void > > /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; > fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick " this has been > taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately > examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ > > (From the Phena Sutta) ... S: Yes, just the khandhas, all devoid of any substance or atta. To think otherwise, is attanudi.t.thi, Ken O!! Metta Sarah ===== #104368 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Yes both of you are right, lobha can arise without conceit (or those dissociated with wrong view). These are the references: > > > a. pg 340, Expositor > The 3rd Class of consciousness arises in one who with joy lets his sense experience evoke greed, who does not [erroneously] regards such notions as a "being", "a person" [as something ultimately true], who goes to look at cockfights, wrestling, boxing, dancing, theatres etc,. or is devoted to listening to pleasant sounds, and so on [for the other esense] ... S: Yes, this is like the child playing in the sand or the baby entranced by its toys. When we're lost in the movie or the music, lots of lobha, but often/usually no conceit or ditthi involved. ... > b. pg 15, Summary of Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary. > When wrong views are not present and one joyfully takes full pleasure in sexual intercourse or strongly desire's wealth or takes another goods with a mind that is naturally sharp, without effort, then the third consciousness arise. .... S: More good examples. Thx for the quotes. Just strong lobha. .... > > c. In XIV, 170 Visud, Aggregates > 168. (24) With the third [unprofitable consciousness (24) there should be understood to be associated those given for the first (22), excepting wrong view (xli). But here the difference is that there is inconstant [occurence] of (xliv) pride (conceit) > > **the inconstant word is also used for cetasikas like envy, avarice and worry ... S: Conceit (mana) is an "inconstant" that may or may not arise with the lobha-mula-citta without di.t.thi. Only panna can tell when it arises! Thanks, Ken, for the good research. Metta Sarah ======= #104369 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, You quoted what I wrote before: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >So, actually, there are 3 asankhata dhammas: > >a) pa~n~natti (concepts), > >b) aakaasa (space) [an-antaakaasa, not pariccheda aakaasa] > >c) nibbana. ... S: this is, I still believe, to be correct. I don't have more to add to the series I wrote before. (Lots in "U.P" under "Space". ... > >KO: IMHO, the debates commentary defintion are the correct one. An-antaakaasa is a concept that is why it is uncondition. ... S: Pls read the comments I wrote to Nina on this before.If you haven't come across them, I'll try to find them. .... > >KO: Further quotes that space is a concept as in objects of Jhanas and as in concepts itself. ... S: Almost all objects of jhana are concepts, but this doesn't mean they are not concepts of realities. So space as a kasina object, is, as I recall, referring to pariccheda akasa rupa, whereas space as object of arupa jhana is referring to open space, akasa rupa - both concepts of realities. You gave a good quote from Summary on this before. .... > > > >1) as an object of jhana where it mentions boundless space as an object of meditation. > >Space Element: Dispeller of Delusion Part I > ><357> In the description of the external space element, asamphuttam catuhi > >mahabhutehi <85.1> ("untouched by the four great primaries") should be > >understood as what is freed from the four great primaries begining with a break > >in a wall, a break in a doorway. By this is describe that space whereby, when > >doing preliminary work on it, fourfold or fivefold jhana arises. ... S: Yes, this is referring to (the concept) of open space, "untouched by the four great primaries" - it is still aksasa rupa. ... > >2) Like those define in Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma. pg 319 under the Analysis of Concepts. > >pg 319 - Hole in well and caves depending on the manner of not being touched > >pg 321 - Such as wells and caves: wells, caves, holes and so on are concepts of space. ... S: Exactly - concepts referring to realities. As the comy says: "concepts of space". The next one are "signs of various elements". These are signs of elements beginning with the earth kasina. Pathavi dhatu is a reality, but the kasina, the sign of pathavi dhatu, the nimitta, is a concept. Just the same with the concept or sign of akasa dhatu. You may like to also raise these controversial topics in KK if my responses don't satisfy:-)) Metta Sarah ======== #104370 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:16 am Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 15. nilovg Dear Han and friends, We read further on in the Commentary to the Yamaka: Question: When the latent tendency of aversion adheres to an object, is it true that it does not only adhere to unpleasant feeling and its accompanying dhammas, but that it also adheres to dhammas such as visible object that is undesirable? It is said in the Book of Analysis (Ch 16, Analysis of Knowledge, 816, And what is the latent tendency of beings?): ...that which in the world is an unlovely thing, unpleasant thing, the tendency of beings for repulsion for that lies latent. It is also said in the Yamaka in its treatment in the negative method (pa.tiloma) of the latent tendency of aversion: The latent tendency of aversion does not adhere to two feelings of the sense sphere (kma dhtu), but it is the latent tendency of sense desire that adheres to these feelings [16]. The latent tendency of aversion does not adhere to rpa-dhtu, arpa- dhtu (the planes of rpa-jhna and arpa-jhna) and the unincluded (lokuttara dhammas), nor does the latent tendency of sense desire adhere to these [17]. The Buddha said that the latent tendency of aversion adheres to the remaining dhammas of visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object, but that it does not adhere to the two feelings of the sense sphere, rpa-dhtu, arpa-dhtu (the planes of rupa-jhna and arpa-jhna) and the unincluded (lokuttara dhammas). The gist of this is contained in his teaching when he said: The latent tendency of aversion does not adhere to two feelings of the sense sphere, to rpa-dhtu (rpa-jhna) and so on. The usual object of aversion it attaches weight to is an undesirable object, namely, painful feeling, unhappy feeling and the other dhammas that are undesirable. As is stated in the text: Just as the Buddha explained: The latent tendency of aversion adheres to the other dhammas such as rpa, but it does not adhere to rpvacara dhammas and arpvacara dhammas which belong to their (respective) planes, and the nine lokuttara dhammas. As we read in the Commentary, the gist of this is contained in his teaching when he said: The latent tendency of aversion does not adhere to two feelings of the sense sphere, to rpa-dhtu (rpa-jhna) and so on. We read further on in the Commentary to the Yamaka: Question: Why did he not explain all this in detail here? Answer: Because it concerns realities that are not coarse. It is true that the Buddha said that the latent tendency of aversion adheres to these (afore-mentioned) dhammas, because unpleasant feeling is a coarse reality according to the method that was explained before. And he did not expressively state that it adheres to these rpas [18], because these are not coarse. However, the meaning can be deducted and therefore, it should be known that the latent tendency also adheres to these rpas. ---------- footnotes: 16. The latent tendency of sense desire adheres to the two feelings that can accompany lobha, namely pleasant feeling and indifferent feeling. However, the latent tendency of aversion does not adhere to those feelings. 17. In the rpa-brahma planes and the arpa-brahma planes aversion does not arise. Sensuous clinging does not arise there either. 18. Unpleasant visible object, and so on. -------- Pali: nanu cesa aaramma.navasena anusayamaano na kevala.m dukkhavedanaaya ceva ta.msampayuttadhammesu ca anuseti, ani.t.thesu pana ruupaadiisupi anusetiyeva? vuttampi ceta.m vibha"ngappakara.ne (vibha0 816) ``ya.m loke appiyaruupa.m asaataruupa.m, ettha sattaana.m pa.tighaanusayo anusetii''ti imasmimpi pakara.ne anusayavaarassa pa.tilomanaye vutta.m -- ``kaamadhaatuyaa dviisu vedanaasu ettha pa.tighaanusayo naanuseti, no ca tattha kaamaraagaanusayo naanuseti. ruupadhaatuyaa aruupadhaatuyaa apariyaapanne ettha pa.tighaanusayo ca naanuseti, kaamaraagaanusayo ca naanusetii''ti. ettha hi dviisu kaamaavacaravedanaasu ceva ruupadhaatuaadiisu ca naanusetiiti vuttattaa sasampayuttadhammaa dve vedanaa saokaase ruupaaruupaavacaradhamme nava ca, lokuttaradhamme .thapetvaa avasesesu ruupaadiisu anusetiiti vutta.m hoti . ta.m idha kasmaa na vuttanti? ano.laarikattaa. he.t.thaa vuttanayena hi dukkhavedanaaya eva o.laarikattaa imesa.m pana ano.laarikattaa etesu ruupaadiisu anusetiiti na vutta.m. atthato pana labbhati, tasmaa etesupi pa.tighaanusayo anusetiyevaati veditabbo. ********* Nina. #104371 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:25 am Subject: Re: Jill sarahprocter... Dear Azita, I know you won't mind - let's keep sharing our "one-liners" on DSG for all to share. [For others, our friend Jill who can be heard on some of the audio, such as on the extract from India in the DSG files, passed away a few days ago, after suffering with lung cancer. Azita has returned to Australia for the funeral.] I find this line of K.Sujin's a very helpful reminder: "We are alone, we are born alone, live our life alone, die alone." Just this one citta now... Metta Sarah .... --- On Sun, 10/1/10, azita gill wrote: > "She went the way she had to go' - I found > that Jataka story wonderful > > may all being be happy, especially Jill > azita > > --- On Sat, 9/1/10, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Best wishes for your trip....the gift of dhamma is > like no > > other gift and we're so fortunate to have been given > this > > gift... > > > > Just like now... #104372 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi nilovg Dear Han, Op 12-jan-2010, om 2:31 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Since you mentioned about the Dhaniya sutta I assume that you have > something to add. I will repost the Dhaniya series at DSG after I > have completed it at JTN. ------- N: Thank you. Not sure I will add. You felt anatta discussions too complicated. Is there a way to make it easier? The subject is difficult for everybody, especially to really accept it, against the stream of common thought. Is that what you find difficult? But that is everybody's problem, so long as insight has not been developed. Nina. #104373 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Audio recordings sarahprocter... Hi Ken O & all, --- On Sun, 10/1/10, Ken O wrote: >I went to the dhamma study org website, there is no audio recording for 2008 and 2009. could you point me to any site which I could download them ... S: Coming....slowly! Patience....we got behind with our editing last year with all our trips and interruptions. Hope to get the next set out by the time of our trip to Bkk in Feb. Metta Sarah (& Jon) ============= #104374 From: Ken O Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ashkenn2k Sorry Sarah You have yet provide textual prove to your points. because the debate commentary is very clear, there is no two unconditional. Space is concept just like putting two pillars and the "thing" in between is space. But small matter, not very important, just like to kid a small fuss for the fun of it. A lot of lobha :-) cheers Ken O > >--- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, Ken O wrote: >> >So, actually, there are 3 asankhata dhammas: >> >a) pa~n~natti (concepts), >> >b) aakaasa (space) [an-antaakaasa, not pariccheda aakaasa] >> >c) nibbana. >... >S: this is, I still believe, to be correct. I don't have more to add to the series I wrote before. (Lots in "U.P" under "Space". >... >> >KO: IMHO, the debates commentary defintion are the correct one. An-antaakaasa is a concept that is why it is uncondition. >... >S: Pls read the comments I wrote to Nina on this before.If you haven't come across them, I'll try to find them. >.... >> >KO: Further quotes that space is a concept as in objects of Jhanas and as in concepts itself. >... >S: Almost all objects of jhana are concepts, but this doesn't mean they are not concepts of realities. So space as a kasina object, is, as I recall, referring to pariccheda akasa rupa, whereas space as object of arupa jhana is referring to open space, akasa rupa - both concepts of realities. You gave a good quote from Summary on this before. >.... >> > >> >1) as an object of jhana where it mentions boundless space as an object of meditation. >> >Space Element: Dispeller of Delusion Part I >> ><357> In the description of the external space element, asamphuttam catuhi >> >mahabhutehi <85.1> ("untouched by the four great primaries") should be >> >understood as what is freed from the four great primaries begining with a break >> >in a wall, a break in a doorway. By this is describe that space whereby, when >> >doing preliminary work on it, fourfold or fivefold jhana arises. >... >S: Yes, this is referring to (the concept) of open space, "untouched by the four great primaries" - it is still aksasa rupa. >... >> >2) Like those define in Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma. pg 319 under the Analysis of Concepts. >> >pg 319 - Hole in well and caves depending on the manner of not being touched >> >pg 321 - Such as wells and caves: wells, caves, holes and so on are concepts of space. >... >S: Exactly - concepts referring to realities. As the comy says: "concepts of space". The next one are "signs of various elements". These are signs of elements beginning with the earth kasina. Pathavi dhatu is a reality, but the kasina, the sign of pathavi dhatu, the nimitta, is a concept. Just the same with the concept or sign of akasa dhatu. > >You may like to also raise these controversial topics in KK if my responses don't satisfy:-)) > >Metta > >Sarah >======== #104375 From: Ken O Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer Problems ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >> >> The Aggregates are Void >> >> /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; >> fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick â€" this has been >> taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately >> examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately. / >> >> (From the Phena Sutta) >... >S: Yes, just the khandhas, all devoid of any substance or atta. > >To think otherwise, is attanudi.t.thi, Ken O!! KO: No Sarah, form is like a mirage because it is devoid of a self. That is still sakkayaditthi and attanuditthi, still we could discuss again in KK. But small matter again :-) Cheers Ken O #104376 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer Problems upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/12/2010 2:52:34 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Thanks, Sarah. :-) For the moment, the computer is okay - but only > after quite a struggle. Fortunately I had saved many (uncontaminated) files on > an external drive, which files I was able to restore, but there still was > much more to do. Now I'm checking on how to safely reinstall my back-up > software so that I can begin backing up anew. I'm hoping that once I format > the external drive, I'll be able to reinstall the backup software from the > disc that was used for installation of the software and subsequently for > restoring data. ... S: Hope all's installed and restored now. ------------------------------------------------------- Thanks. It does seem so. ----------------------------------------------------- ... >One thing for sure: My next computer will be a MAC, and no > longer a pc!!! (I've had it with Windows-based systems!) ... S: Well, I went the other way after some frustrating MAC experiences, lol! Have had better luck with my pc. ----------------------------------------------------- Hmmm! Interesting. So ... nothing's any good!! ;-)) Dukkha! LOL! ---------------------------------------------------- ... > I hope 2010 is wonderful year for you and all of us!! (Although there > are supposedly no "you" and no "us"and no years! Always good to begin the > year, and ain't no such thing as a year either(!!), conversing with > *fictions, eh? LOLOL!) > ------------------------------------------------------ S: Lol too.....yes just conversing with namas and rupas....in the end living alone, thinking alone, dying alone.... ... > * I don't actually believe that you and I and "this year" etc are utter > fictions in the same way and to the same degree as are selves, souls, and > unicorns. However, these are not elementary, separate, self-existent, > delineative realities or entities. Precisely, they are cross-temporal complexes of > more elementary phenomena, and they are known only through thinking and by > mental association of related but disparate phenomena (though it may seem > otherwise) and are even more matters of convention than are the underlying > phenomena you like to call "realities". ;-) .... S: Yes, just known through thinking at this moment. Without a moment of thinking now, no list, no people, no computer problems:-) ------------------------------------------------------ Agreed. ---------------------------------------------------- ... > > The Aggregates are Void > > /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; > fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick â€" this has been > taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately > examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ > > (From the Phena Sutta) ... S: Yes, just the khandhas, all devoid of any substance or atta. To think otherwise, is attanudi.t.thi, Ken O!! Metta Sarah ============================ With metta, Howard Emptiness /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #104377 From: "santa_esi09" Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:38 am Subject: Re: The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 9. santa_esi09 Dear Sarah, At present, I am staying in the Bellanwilarajamahaviharaya, Boralesgamuwa, Sri Lanka. If you are interested to see this monastery, you can access it in the google, and perhaps you will see some pictures of it. At present, Ven. Dhammadipa is staying in Nepal to continue his study there. Formerly he also stayed in Sri Lanka and we both studied at Kelaniya University. After he finished his B.A, he went to Nepal and stay till this days, while I still love Sri Lanka. I have introduced myself and it would be good if you also introduce yourself. Honestly, I am really glad to see the members of this Dhammastudy who seem to be very advanced in the Dhamma. With Metta, /S.Santacitto. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Ven Santacitto (& Ven Dhammadipa), > > Thank you very much for your kind introduction. It's very interesting that you are from Indonesia, but staying and studying in Sri Lanka. May I ask where abouts in Sri Lanka you are staying? there are absolutely no mistakes on your part with regard to the membership. I'm sorry we didn't know how to address you before. I'm appreciating your good questions and keen interest in Dhamma study. > > Ven Dhammadipa has written a few letters. > > Ven Dhammadipa, thank you for introducing Ven Santacitto and I'm very interested to hear that you are from Bangladesh, residing in Sri Lanka too. > > With respect, > > Sarah > ======= > > > > --- On Tue, 12/1/10, santa_esi09 wrote: > >I am sorry not to introduce myself first. I am a Buddhist novice from Indonesia. My name is Ven. Santacitto (in Indonesia, being samanera, normally I am called as Samanera Santacitto). Currently, I stay in Sri Lanka for the Buddhist study. I get the information of this Dhamma study from my friend, Ven. Dhammadipa from Bangladesh. I don't ask him further but I believe he has already joined this Dhamma study. Being a new, I still cannot understand well how to be good membership. Therefore, if there is a mistake in my part, I will be very glad to get advice and direction from all of you. > #104378 From: han tun Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: You felt anatta discussions too complicated. Is there a way to make it easier? The subject is difficult for everybody, especially to really accept it, against the stream of common thought. Is that what you find difficult? But that is everybody's problem, so long as insight has not been developed. Han: No, it is not complicated. It is very clear. The only thing is I cannot practice the anattaa the way it was taught by the Buddha as long as I am a puthujjana. But I am not worried. I am happy where I am. As you said, everything is conditioned! Respectfully, Han #104379 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:23 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 8. nilovg Venerable Santacitto, Op 12-jan-2010, om 10:49 heeft santa_esi09 het volgende geschreven: > (1). You are of the opinion that the Buddha did not set up any > rules that tranquil meditation is highly needed as a requirement > for the development of insight meditation. However, as we see in > the Rathavinitasutta of the Majjhimanikaya, among the seven stages > of purification, the second is the purification of mind > (cittavisuddhi). This sutta has explained how the seven stages are > interconnected to each other and hand in hand helping a > practitioner to attain the liberation. These seven stages have been > further explained in detail in the Visuddhimagga. Examining this > text, we can infer that the cittavisuddhi is the attainment of > upacarasamadhi or jhana through tranquil meditation. If we accept > this, then your opinion seem to have been contradiction with this. > So I need your further clarification. -------- N: Cittavisuddhi is purity of concentration together with vipassanaa. There cannot be any purity without satipa.t.thaana; thus, no purity if one takes concentration for self. Each time we read visuddhi it means that there is purity with right understanding developed in satipatthaana. Citta or concentration can be of different levels, it need not be of the level of access or jhaana. If it is of the level of jhaana and it is visuddhi, jhaana is seen as non-self. When there is right understanding and right awareness in daily life of a naama or ruupa there is at that moment concentration which is citta visuddhi. ----------- > > S: (2). You mention about the calm gained through vipassana. Is it > having the same characteristic with the development of tranquil > meditation or it different? --------- N: It is different. The pa~n~naa that accompanies it is of a different level. The calm of samatha that is temporary freedom from defilements cannot be developed without pa. The pa of samatha must be able to discern the characteristic of calm when it arises, otherwise calm cannot grow. The pa of samatha knows kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala, but it is different from the pa of vipassan since it does not realize kusala and akusala as not self. The concept of self is not eradicated through samatha. -------------- > S: (3). While being equipped with the understanding of the Dhamma, > is it possible that a person practices solely the tranquil > meditation only or solely insight meditation only? ---------- > N: Understanding of the Dhamma can be of different levels. He can > practise solely samatha, why not? It depends on his inclination. > But the aim of samatha is temporary suppression of defilements, not > eradication. He can practise solely insight. He needs a firm foundation knowledge of naama and ruupa, of what vipassanaa is and the way of its development. ------- With respect, Nina. #104380 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 truth_aerator Dear KenO, Nina, Sarah, Jon, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > > KO: We are saying thinking of quickening to get enlighted is lobha True. But it can *also* be due to correct understanding of dangers of samsara and peace of Nibbana. Thinking is not bad itself. Thinking with wrong views or tendencies is wrong. >One cannot hasten development as dhamma is anatta. It depends on what you mean by hasten. Are you saying that a non-Buddhist will reach Nibbana at the same rate as a Buddhist with lots of panna? > KO: When panna arise, it is a skillful quality. During the arisen of panna, there is abandoning of unskillful qualities. Why beat about the bush to search for solutions when the solution is just understanding reailty as it arise. All akusala be it hatred, greed and ignorance must be eradicated by panna. The key which I have been saying is panna and this is the only quality you need to know about. > > > KO: When you show the passage on development, its really lack of understanding. How could dhamma which is anatta be fabricated, could you now stop yourself from seeing when it arise, or hearing when it occurrs, or citta thinking about worlding matters. And this statement << 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.'>> the word desire of mine is full of micca ditthi. The phrase was spoken by the Buddha "'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered." >Could you honestly tell me any part of your aggregate is you or >belongs to you. None of them belong to anyone. They are natural phenomena. Please understand: The Buddha has often said about desire and strong effort. He frequently talked about the need for physical seclusion, samatha development and so on. I do not beleive that it is always good to jump to the most important part and disregard the preliminary steps. Sure, the panna, is the most important aspect. But it is supported by other factors such as sila and samadhi. Like one cannot simply jump to grade 12, the most advanced class in high school, but has to go through grades 1,2,3 etc - same is here. Before building a 2nd floor, there must be 1st floor. It does seem to me that DSG promotes inaction of the "nothing-can-be-done-ism" . If thats the case, then awakening cannot be hastened and any non-buddhist can attain Nibbana at the same rate as a Buddhist. One may as well indulge in beer and football and avoid doing any effort (cultivating kusala) for Awakening since that would be just developing micchaditthi - akusala. With metta, Alex #104381 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 12-jan-2010, om 2:25 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > In example, some person can contemplate phenomena like "empty", "not > individual", "like a dream"... or whatever language-construction > enough to arise in him the contemplation of phenomena as devoid of > substance, and therefore only nama-and-rupa. And in this way panna > also can act. Maybe later she will meet the Abhidhamma and she learn > about nama-and-rupa, and then she will realize that what she already > knows, here it is called "nama and rupa".... Then somebody can realize anatta without knowing Abhidhamma, and for this reason his intellectual understanding it would be directly focused to the anatta of consciousness instead the nama-rupa of phenomema. -------- N: Without listening to the Buddha's teachings he may contemplate, but he cannot develop direct understanding. The names nama and rupa do not matter, we can call them by other names, but it is the characteristics that have to be known: one reality knows, and one reality does not know anything. --------- V: And I suspect it can be a problem of learn about how to conciliate Dependent Origination and the Abhidhamma teaching.... Here, in the paticca-samuppada, nama stands only for the three mental groups: feeling, perception, mental formations, whilst consciousness is singled out, in order to show that all mental and physical life of beings is dependent on it." If I understand well, N. Mahathera recommend not mixing things. One must be aware of dependence of nama-rupa regarding consciousness. Nama-rupa are so real because there is consciousness. --------- N: Mahathera is correct. But in the D.O. consciousness is here vipaakacitta, rebirth-consciousness and vipaakacittas during life, and naama/ruupa are the cetasikas and rupas arising together with rebirth-consciousness. As to vipaakacittas during life, naama are the cetasikas and ruupa has to be specified. This is quite different from when we are speaking in general of naama and ruupa in our life. For the moment it would be better not to focus on the D.O. All terms have specific meanings, it is a long study. --------- > N: If he sees a person he does not know, the story is short; he > thinks > only for a little while about him and then the story is over. He > does not continue to think about him. V: it can sounds really accurate. But when we read these things sometimes one can speculate if this a sad situation, when in fact it is the opposite thing. Very different of what many western philosophers says. In Dhamma, a better understanding makes grows true happiness because there is the knowledge of sadness as a -self construction. ------ N: And also joy is non-self. We cling to it. ----- V:As happens in this video: ------- N: Cream on strawberry, I could not make anything out of it. Very funny. ------------ You asked for more Abhidhamma and practice, so I better quote from the Cambodian talks: Kh Sujin: (end quote) **** Nina. #104382 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] OFF WITH THEIR HEADS ksheri3 [All] As I said," I will be back" and yes, this post concerns a great deal of what it is that I'm working with today. You have problems? Huh, I have problems! what's the importance of your problems over and above my problems? INTERESTING? WHY IS IMPORTANCE CONSIDERED AS BEING ABOVE? <...> WHAT IS THIS: "grasper and grasped"? Isn't that the exact same thing as Nargarjuna's "goer and going"? WHAT IS: A GRASPER THAT WHICH IS GRASPED A SELF A DHARMA? DOES THE CONCEPT OF A GRASPER AND GRASPED ACTUALLY EQUAL THE CONCEPT OF A SELF AND THE DHARMA? Maybe they are nothing more than examples which are equivelent, no? <...> I can assure you: I am commin back on this issue! <...> toodles, colette #104383 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:40 pm Subject: Perfection! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The 3 Stages of Mental Perfection: The 10 Mental Perfections (paramis = paramitas) are: 1: Generosity (Dana) 2: Morality (Sila) 3: Withdrawal (Nekkhamma) 4: Understanding (Paa) 5: Enthusiastic Energy (Viriya) 6: Patient Forbearance (Khanti) 7: Honesty & Truthfulness (Sacca) 8: Resolute Determination (Adhitthana) 9: Kind Friendliness (Metta) 10: Balanced Equanimity (Upekkha) The Buddha said: "So few as these only, are these supreme mental qualities, which culminates in Awakening. There is nothing elsewhere beyond them! Be thorough, firm and systematic to complete them all..." These 10 mental perfections are developed to three levels: I: Those who awakens as disciples = Savaka-Bodhis give all possessions away including wife and kids to perfect generosity. Similar level with the 9 other perfections... II: Those who awakens as Solitary Buddhas = Pacceka-Buddhas give an organ, limb or eye away to perfect generosity. Similar level with the 9 other perfections... III: Those who awakens as Perfect Buddhas = Samm asam-Buddhas give even their own life away to perfect generosity. Similar level with the 9 other metal perfections... The basic perfection of generosity is the relinquishing of one's children, wives, and belongings, such as wealth. The intermediate perfection of giving is the relinquishing of one's own limbs. The ultimate perfection of giving is the relinquishing of one's own life. The 3 stages in the perfection of morality should be understood as the non-transgression of morality on account of the three: children and wife, limbs, and life. The three stages in the perfection of withdrawal, as the withdrawal of those three bases after cutting off attachment to them. The 3 perfections of understanding, as the discrimination between what is advantageous or detrimental to beings after rooting out craving for one's belongings, limbs, and life. The three stages in the perfection of energy, as striving for the relinquishing of these 3things. The three stages in the perfection of patience, as tolerance to obstacles to one's belongings, limbs, and life. The 3 stages of perfection of Honesty, as the non-abandoning of honesty due to one's belongings, limbs, and life. The 3 stages of perfection of determination, as unshakeable determination despite the destruction of one's belongings, limbs, & life, bearing in mind that perfections ultimately succeed through a unflinching determination! The three stages in the perfection of friendliness, as the maintaining of friendliness towards any one, who destroys one's belongings! The 3 stages in the perfection of equanimity, as maintaining an attitude of imperturbable impartial neutrality towards all beings and phenomena, whether they are helpful or harmful in regard to ones belongings, limbs, and life. In this way should the analysis of the mental perfections be understood. Source: Commentary on the Basket of behaviour. Trnsl. by Bhikkhu Bodhi in Discourse on the All-Embracing Net of Views <..>ave a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104384 From: "santa_esi09" Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:27 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 8. santa_esi09 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Venerable Santacitto, > Op 12-jan-2010, om 10:49 heeft santa_esi09 het volgende geschreven: > > > (1). You are of the opinion that the Buddha did not set up any > > rules that tranquil meditation is highly needed as a requirement > > for the development of insight meditation. However, as we see in > > the Rathavinitasutta of the Majjhimanikaya, among the seven stages > > of purification, the second is the purification of mind > > (cittavisuddhi). This sutta has explained how the seven stages are > > interconnected to each other and hand in hand helping a > > practitioner to attain the liberation. These seven stages have been > > further explained in detail in the Visuddhimagga. Examining this > > text, we can infer that the cittavisuddhi is the attainment of > > upacarasamadhi or jhana through tranquil meditation. If we accept > > this, then your opinion seem to have been contradiction with this. > > So I need your further clarification. > -------- > N: Cittavisuddhi is purity of concentration together with vipassanaa. > There cannot be any purity without satipa.t.thaana; thus, no purity > if one takes concentration for self. Each time we read visuddhi it > means that there is purity with right understanding developed in > satipatthaana. > > Citta or concentration can be of different levels, it need not be of > the level of access or jhaana. If it is of the level of jhaana and it > is visuddhi, jhaana is seen as non-self. When there is right > understanding and right awareness in daily life of a naama or ruupa > there is at that moment concentration which is citta visuddhi. > ----------- S: Actually, your answer in this point is what I have in my mind with regard to the third question. I feel that while understanding the Dhamma or in other word, the concept of anicca, dukkka, and anatta which are the understanding that should be developed in the vipassana, even while practicing tranquil meditation, such person will not take any experience in that particular meditation including access concentration and jhana as the permanent, real happiness and self. And I see that it is what you might say as purification of mind (cittavisuddhi),isn't it? Yap I agree that that the degree of concentration is not necessarily access or jhana, but also there is another degree called khanikasamadhi which is generally accepted as the only type concentration achieved in the vipassana. So here the conclusion is that any kind of concentration whether khanika, upacara or jhana is of purification of mind when a person does not look at it as 'self', or when a person sees them as mere nama and rupa, right? If that so, I feel comforting. ---------- > > > > S: (2). You mention about the calm gained through vipassana. Is it > > having the same characteristic with the development of tranquil > > meditation or it different? > --------- > N: It is different. The pa~n~naa that accompanies it is of a > different level. > The calm of samatha that is temporary freedom from defilements cannot > be developed without pa. The pa of samatha must be able to > discern the characteristic of calm when it arises, otherwise calm > cannot grow. The pa of samatha knows kusala as kusala and akusala > as akusala, but it is different from the pa of vipassan since it > does not realize kusala and akusala as not self. The concept of self > is not eradicated through samatha. > -------------- S: Therefore, one who attains calm in the samatha should turn it into insight in the sense one should look at that attainment samatha as impermanent, suffering and non-self in order to attain liberation, right? ------------- > > > S: (3). While being equipped with the understanding of the Dhamma, > > is it possible that a person practices solely the tranquil > > meditation only or solely insight meditation only? > ---------- > > N: Understanding of the Dhamma can be of different levels. He can > > practise solely samatha, why not? It depends on his inclination. > > But the aim of samatha is temporary suppression of defilements, not > > eradication. > He can practise solely insight. He needs a firm foundation knowledge > of naama and ruupa, of what vipassanaa is and the way of its > development. > ------- > With respect, > Nina. > S: Could you give a further explanation of what different levels of understanding the Dhamma so that one could practice solely vipassana or solely samatha? I ask this because there are some people who experience samadhi dan insight in the same course of practice. Thanks, for your kind explanation. With Metta, /S.Santacitto #104385 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:15 pm Subject: PHANTASMS, no? nichiconn Dear Sarah, I think when I said "grey area" it was because I was missing something when reading "The Great Discourse on Causation", too, but here's a little more light -- quoting Nina's note in #25922 (Dhamma Issue 13, Devas reborn with an ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta.) -- 5. Footnote by Ven. Bodhi: << Ordinarily the "beings in the lower realms", vinipaatika, are identified with the denizens of the four planes of misery. But here the term is used to refer to other classes of beings outside the planes of misery.>> The plane of Petas, ghosts, and the plane of Asuras, demons, are unhappy planes, but in some cases the words peta and asura are used for devas of the lowest class. A peta with a heavenly mansion or palace, vimaana, is a vemaanika peta. This peta is a deva of the lowest class of the "Four Great Kings". (Translated from Thai) I've heard an argument to the effect that originally there were only three planes of misery, the asura realm not being included, but the above answers that to my satisfaction... hope it helps with your questions (below). Also, though, while we're born human (or whatever), thoughts wander... just thinking about 'falling'... one moment of metta and then countless minds of greed or anger. peace, connie #104366 "connie" wrote: >But ok, an 'actual definition' from PaliWords: ghost (m) - pisaaca; peta; amanussa. That kinda opens a bit of a grey area where we can talk about << "Some beings in the lower realms": such beings as the female spirits Uttaramaataa, Piya"nkaramaataa, Phussamittaa, Dhammaguttaa, etc., and other spirits who live in places outside the four planes of misery. For their bodies are of diverse colours, shapes, and sizes, and like humans their perception may be double-roted, triple-rooted, or rootless. .... S: I just couldn't understand this, could you? How can there be "beings in the lower realms" who live "outside the four planes of misery"? How can they be triple-rooted or even double-rooted? What am I missing? Perhaps the following: >But unlike the gods they are not powerful; they are powerless like low-class humans. They have trouble finding food and clothing and live oppressed by pain. Some are afflicted during the dark fortnight and happy during the bright fortnight. Therefore, because they have fallen from the heights of happiness, they are called "beings in the lower realms." ... S: Ah, they were reborn in happy realms and have somehow "fallen" during that life....hmmm.... How do you understand this? ... >Those among them who are triple-rooted can achieve comprehension of the Dhamma. Thus one time at daybreak the female spirit Piya"nkaramaaataa heard the Elder Anuruddha reciting the Dhamma and said (to her son Piya"nkara): > "Do not make a sound, Piya"nkara, > This bhikkhu is reciting passages of Dhamma, > Perhaps we can learn those passages > And practise for our true welfare. > We should refrain from harming beings > And should not tell conscious lies, > We should train ourselves in virtue > To be freed from the goblin realm." (S.X.6; i,209). > Having spoken thus to her little son, she attained the fruit of stream-entry that same day. Uttaramaataa became a stream-enterer after hearing the Dhamma from the Exalted One." - Mahaanidaana Cy. (p99) >> ... S: So she was actually in a woeful plane at the time.... Definitely something I'm missing... Also, do you have any access to the Mahaanidaana Cy here or are you quoting from another text? Metta Sarah #104386 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:18 pm Subject: Re: Jill glenjohnann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Azita and Sarah A: Azita, I know from Pinna that you have been very attentive to Jill. No doubt as a Dhamma friend you shared many valuable moments for both of you. I am sorry for your loss. A: Sarah, thank you for the reminder below - one that is so true. We are so easily diverted in our daily life, it is good to see be reminded how we are alone with just one citta at a time. > I find this line of K.Sujin's a very helpful reminder: > > "We are alone, we are born alone, live our life alone, die alone." > > Just this one citta now... > A: I am not familiar with the Jataka story below: > > > "She went the way she had to go' - > > A: It seems particularly appropriate now - can you give me a reference, or a brief summary? Ann > #104387 From: han tun Date: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 15. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your post No. 15. It is getting more difficult. I print below, the Contents of the Pali text of Anusaya-yamaka. Could you kindly tell me where are we now with regard to the Contents? Contents 1. Uppatti.t.thaanavaara 2. Mahaavaara 2.1. Anusayavaara Anuloma-puggala Anuloma-okaasa Anuloma-puggalokaasa Pa.tiloma-puggala Pa.tiloma-okaasa Pa.tiloma-puggalokaasa 2.2. Saanusayavaara Anuloma-puggala Anuloma-okaasa Anuloma-puggalokaasa Pa.tiloma-puggala Pa.tiloma-okaasa Pa.tiloma-puggalokaasa 3. Pajahanavaara Anuloma-puggala Anuloma-okaasa Anuloma-puggalokaasa Pa.tiloma-puggala Pa.tiloma-okaasa Pa.tiloma-puggalokaasa 4. Pari~n~naavaara Anuloma-puggala Anuloma-okaasa Anuloma-puggalokaasa Pa.tiloma-puggala Pa.tiloma-okaasa Pa.tiloma-puggalokaasa 5. Pahiinavaara Anuloma-puggala Anuloma-okaasa Anuloma-puggalokaasa Pa.tiloma-puggala Pa.tiloma-okaasa Pa.tiloma-puggalokaasa 6. Uppajjanavaara 7. Dhaatu-pucchaavaara Dhatu-visajjanaavaara Respectfully, Han #104388 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:13 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 11. nilovg Dear friends, When insight, the direct understanding of realities, is developed, there is mindfulness which is non-forgetful, aware, of the reality appearing at the present moment: a mental phenomenon or a physical phenomenon. At the very moment of mindfulness direct understanding of that reality can gradually develop. Thus, when there is mindfulness with the development of insight, the opportunity for the investigation of what appears at the present moment is not wasted. Mindfulness and understanding are different realities, they are mental factors which each have a different function while they arise with kusala citta in the development of insight. Mindfulness is non- forgetful of the reality appearing at the present moment through one of the six doorways, but it does not have the function of understanding that reality. Understanding investigates the true nature of the reality which appears, but in the beginning it cannot be clear understanding. It is merely learning and studying the characteristic of the phenomenon appearing at the present moment. It develops very gradually, there are many degrees of understanding. The moment of mindfulness is so short, it falls away immediately. In the beginning mindfulness and understanding are still weak and thus one cannot be sure what their characteristics are. Mindfulness in the development of insight is aware of one object at a time, either a mental phenomenon or a physical phenomenon. It is aware of an ultimate reality, not of a concept such as a person or a thing. The whole day there is touching of different things, such as a chair, a plate, a cup, a cushion. Usually there is thinking of concepts, one defines the things one touches, one knows what they are used for. When one has learnt about ultimate realities and there are conditions for mindfulness, however, it can be aware of one reality, such as hardness or softness appearing through the bodysense. At that very moment there can be a beginning of right understanding of that reality: it can be seen as only a physical reality, an element, arising because of conditions. ******* Nina. #104389 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:09 am Subject: Re: Jill rjkjp1 -The blue book the Jill co-authored with Richard was a great one that I first read some 25 years ago. Really excellent and an online verision availbel on my website. Meeting Jill in Thiland and Austrlia to discuss Dhamma was always nice too. robert #104390 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:41 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (316, 15) nichiconn Dear Friends, the sutta translations/translators' notes for Commentary post #104298: CSCD < Scott, Nina, Connie #104391 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:46 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (317, 16) nichiconn Dear Friends, the sutta continues: CSCD 317. <ti. Appaabaadho hoti appaata'nko, samavepaakiniyaa gaha.niyaa samannaagato naatisiitaaya naaccu.nhaaya majjhimaaya padhaanakkhamaaya. Asa.tho hoti amaayaavii, yathaabhuuta.m attaana.m aavikattaa satthari vaa vi~n~nuusu vaa sabrahmacaariisu. aaraddhaviiriyo viharati akusalaana.m dhammaana.m pahaanaaya kusalaana.m dhammaana.m upasampadaaya thaamavaa da.lhaparakkamo anikkhittadhuro kusalesu dhammesu. Pa~n~navaa hoti udayatthagaaminiyaa pa~n~naaya samannaagato ariyaaya nibbedhikaaya sammaadukkhakkhayagaaminiyaa. Walshe DN 33.2.1(16) 'Five factors of endeavour: Here, a monk (a) has faith, trusting in the enlightenment of the Tathaagata: "Thus this Blessed Lord is an Arahant, a fully-enlightened Buddha ..." (as Sutta 3, v.1.2), {p.111: DN 3, 1.2. And Pokkharasaati heard say: 'The ascetic Gotama, son of the Sakyans, who has gone forth from the Sakya clan, ...is staying in the dense jungle of Icchaanankala. And concerning that Blessed Lord a good report has been spread about: "This Blessed Lord is an Arahant, a fully-enlightened Buddha, prefected in knowledge and conduct, a Well-Farer, Knower of the worlds, unequalled Trainer of men to be tamed, Teacher of gods and humans, a Buddha, a Blessed Lord." He proclaims this world with its gods, maaras, Brahmaas, the world of ascetics and Brahmins with its princes and people, having come to know it by his own knowledge. He teaches a Dhamma that is lovely in its beginning, lovely in its middle, and lovely in its ending, in the spirit and in the letter, and he displays the fully-perfected, thoroughly purified [i 88] holy life. And indeed it is good to see such Arahants.'} (b) is in good health, suffers little distress or sickness, having a good digestion that is neither too cool nor too hot but of a middling tempreature suitable for exertion, (c) is not fraudulent or deceitful, showing himself as he really is to his teacher or to the wise among his companions in the holy life, (d) keeps his energy constantly stirred u pfor abandoning unwholesome states and arousing wholesome states, and is steadfast, firm in advancing and persisting in wholesome states, (e) is a man of wisdom, endowed with wisdom concerning rising and cessation, with the Ariyan penetration that leads to the complete destruction of suffering. Olds [ 5.16 ] Five dimensions of striving:[ 5.16 ] Here, friends, a beggar has faith, believing in the awakening of the Tathagata:[ 5.16.1 ] Thus is the Bhagava, Arahant, Consummately-Self-Awakened, perfected in vision and conduct, The Wellcome One[ 5.16.2 ], World-Knower, unsurpassable Dhamma-coach for man, teacher of gods and men, A Buddha, The Lucky Man. He has few oppressions, few upsets, is possessed of smoothly assimilating[ 5.16.3 ] digestion, neither too cool nor too hot, but in between, of a sort for making effort. He has no dishonesty, is undeceiving about himself, is no boaster to his Teacher or to the wise among his fellow Brahma-farers. He lives with roused energy, letting go of unskillful things, taking up skillful things, steadfast, of steady exertion, not putting down the undertaking of skillful things. He has wisdom, he is wise to what leads to rise and fall, being possessed of that aristocratic penetration that leads to consummate destruction of Pain. RDs [ 5.16 ] Five factors in spiritual wrestling. Herein, friends, a brother has confidence, believing in the Tathaagata's enlightenment: -- 'Thus is the Exalted One: he is Arahant fully awakened, wisdom he has, and righteousness; he is the Well-Farer; he has knowledge of the worlds; he is the supreme driver of men willing to be tamed; the teacher of devas and men; the Awakened and Exalted One'--he is in good health, exempt from suffering, endowed with a smoothly assimilating digstion, neither overheated nor too chilly, but medium, suited for exertion. He is not deceitful nor crafty, honestly making known himself for what he is to the Teacher, or to wise persons among his fellow-disciples. He maintains a flow of energy in eliminating wrong states of mind and evoking good states, vigorous, strongly reaching out, not shirking toil with respect to good states of mind. He has insight, being endowed with understanding which goes to the rise and cessation of all things. Ariyan, penetrating, going to the perfect destruction of ill. **olds: [ 5.16 ] Pa~nca padhaaniya'ngaani: (snip) Padhaana (nt.) [fr. pa+dhaa, cp. padahati] exertion, energetic effort, striving, concentration of mind D III.30, 77, 104, 108, 214, 238; M II.174, 218; S I.47; II.268; IV.360; V.244 sq.; A III.65-67 (5 samayaa and 5 asamayaa for padhaana), 249; IV.355; V.17 sq.. Padhaana is fourfold, viz. sa'nvara-, pahaana-, bhaavana-, anurakkha.naa- or exertion consisting in the restraint of one's senses, the abandonment of sinful thoughts, practice of meditation and guarding one's character. These 4 are mentioned at D III.225; A II.16. Very frequently termed sammappadhaana [cp. BSk. samyak--pradhaana MVastu III.120; but also samyakprahaa.na, e. g. Divy 208] or "right exertion," thus at Vin I.22; S I.105; III.96 (the four); A II.15 (id.); III.12; IV.125. Saddahati [Vedic shrad-dhaa, only in impers. forms grd. shrad-dadhaana; pp. shrad-dhita; inf. shrad-dhaa; cp. Av. zraz--daa id.; Lat. cred-(d)o (cp. "creed"); Oir. cretim to believe. Fr. Idg. *kred (=cord- heart)+*dhe, lit. to put one's heart on] [ 5.16.1 ]: Tathaagata The "That-That-Got-That." (PED: Tathaagata [Derivation uncertain. Buddhaghosa (DA I.59-67) gives eight explanations showing that there was no fixed tradition on the point, and that he himself was in doubt]. The context shows that the word is an epithet of an Arahant, and that non-Buddhists were supposed to know what it meant. The compilers of the Nikaayas must therefore have considered the expression as pre-Buddhistic; but it has not yet been found in any pre-Buddhistic work. Mrs. Rhys Davids (Dhs. tr. 1099, quoting Chalmers J.R.A.S. Jan., 1898) suggests "he who has won through to the truth.") I don't know if non-Buddhists should know the meaning, but Buddhists should "get it." A term for describing a being that cannot be said to be a being and cannot be described in any other way who has attained (gat) a goal (ta) that cannot be described. A That That's gotten That. Say: "t'ta-ga-ta." tata got ta go! Cara.na (nt.) [of a deer, called pa~nca-hattha "having 5 hands," i. e. the mouth and the 4 feet] 1. walking about, grazing, feeding. -- 2. the foot. -- 3. acting, behaviour, good conduct, freq. in combn with vijjaa, e. g. A II.163; V.327. Sampanna [pp. of sampajjati] 1. successful, complete, perfect. -- 2. endowed with, possessed of, abounding in; vijjaacara.nasampanna full of wisdom and goodness D I.49; often used as first part of a compound, e. g. sampannavijjaacara.na; sampannasiila virtuous; sampannodaka abounding in water. -- 3. sweet, well cooked. [ 5.16.2 ]Sugata [su+gata] faring well, happy, having a happy life after death (gati). Freq. Ep. of the Buddha (see Dict. of Names). [ 5.16.3 ]sama-vepaakiniyaa: Thanks to Rhys Davids for this one: Lit: "evenly-ripening." Nibbedha [nis+vedha, to vyadh] penetration, insight; adj.: penetrating, piercing, scrutinising, sharp. Freq. in phrase nibbedha-bhaagiya (sharing the quality of penetration), with ref. to samaadhi, sa~n~naa etc. [cp. BSk. nirvedha- Divy 50; but also nirbheda- AvSH II.181, of kusalamuulaani; expld as lobhakkhandhassa (etc.) nibbijjhanaani at Nett 274] D III.251, 277; A III.427. -- Also in nibbedha-gaaminii (pa~n~naa). Nibbedhaka (adj.) [nis+vedhaka, to vyadh] piercing, sharp, penetrating, discriminating; only in f. nibbedhikaa (cp. aavedhikaa), appld to pa~n~naa (wisdom) D III.237, 268; S V.197, 199; M I.356; A I.45; II.167; III.152; 410 sq., 416; V.15. Walshe: This Blessed Lord is an Arahant, a fully-enlightened Buddha, perfected in knowledge and conduct, a Well-Farer, Knower of the worlds, unequalled Trainer of men to be tamed, Teacher of gods and humans, a Buddha, a Blessed Lord. Rhys Davids: Thus is the Exalted one: he is Arahant fully awakened, wisdom he has and righteousness; he is the Well-Farer; he has knowledge of the worlds; he is the supreme driver of men willing to be tamed; the teacher of devas and men; the Awakened and Exalted One. Woodward: ...an Arahant, a Fully Enlightened One, perfect in knowledge and conduct, a Wellfarer, a world-knower, unsurpassed driver of men to be driven, Teacher of devas and mankind, a Buddha, an Exalted One. Connie, Scott, Nina #104392 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:05 pm Subject: Perfect Praxis! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How to be a real true Buddhist? Simply and easily by joining the Three Refuges and undertaking the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times so that feet, hands, elbows, knees and head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart, one recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts... Then one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in-&-to this world! This is the very start on the path towards Nibbana -the Deathless Element- This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Bliss, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training Meditation ... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I.." signed with name, date, town & country to me. I have then out up a public list of this evolving Saddhamma Sangha . May your journey hereby be eased, light, swift and sweet. Never give up!!! One can also join the Saddhamma Sangha by taking the 3 refuges 5 accept the 5 training rules right here : http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm <...> Behaviour gradually evolves and spread like rings of pure good! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104393 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:14 pm Subject: Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 ptaus1 Hi KenO, > K: I, my and mine when use by Buddha is for teaching purposes. He knows clearly there is no self in dhamma. But when I, my and mine is used by modern teachers that where my doubts are pt: Thanks for the clarification, though I still don't really get your interpretation of that sutta excerpt. Here's how I see it at the moment, perhaps you can point out where your understanding differs? Thanks. Sutta: "There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered." pt: It seems that for the one developing this base of power: 1. panna is of the level of understanding the difference between kusala and akusala chanda (desire), so that development can happen with kusala chanda (desire), not akusala one. 2. his/her insight is not yet on the level of vipassana, i.e. there is that word "thinking", which seems to indicate that whatever panna knows, it is still on the conceptual level - so it knows the difference between akusala and kusala characteristcs of chanda and other realities, but doesn't know their characteristic of anatta directly yet. 3. it primarily deals with samatha development - sluggish, active, restricted and scattered seem to refer to meditation hindrances. So there's doesn't seem to be a requirement to know the dhammas and their characteristics as annata at this point yet, but only as kusala or akusala. So, "my" and "mine" seem appropriate at this level, whether used by the Buddha, or by other teachers, as there's no direct recognition of anatta yet. 4. This whole next bit of the sutta seems to refer to some sort of samatha practice, though I'm not sure which one exactly - i.e. is it perceiving some sort of kasina nimitta all the time, or something else, and I don't understand that whole bit about day and night either, nor the brightened mind... Sutta: "He keeps perceiving what is in front & behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, what is behind is the same as what is in front. What is below is the same as what is above, what is above is the same as what is below. [He dwells] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind." Best wishes pt #104394 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:08 pm Subject: One of my VERY ODD QUESTIONS: ksheri3 Hi Group, I know this is a Hindu and Tantrik question but they, through their own definition, used many words and concepts we use in Buddhism, thus: The word Nyasa means placing and refers to a large component of tantrik ritualism in which the practitioner touches various parts of the body at the same time pronouncing a mantra and visualising a devata or a bija (root) mantra. Nyasa is supposed to "divinise" the body of the worshipper. ********** besides the numerous questions and oddities I find here I am only gonna ask one question based on one term which DOES NOT TRANSPOSE AT ALL USING THE DEFINATIONS IN BUDDHISM. Here they apply the concept of a "bija" as being a "root" and not a seed. The root, while it could possibly have all the components which make it a seed, often does not which is why the Buddhist definition of Bija, as a seed, seems confusing to this term as a "root", an actuality which has already manifested thus has no other potential, no "upward mobility" since it is already manifest as a root. It seems odd, doesn't it? Does any scholar have an explanation for me? toodles, colette #104395 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:56 pm Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 12. nilovg Dear friends, One may touch a precious piece of chinaware, but it should be remembered that through touch the reality of hardness, not the chinaware, can be experienced. Hardness is tangible object, it is an ultimate reality which has its own characteristic. When there is mindfulness of that reality there is no attachment. When mindfulness has fallen away, there may be moments of thinking of that piece of chinaware, there may be thinking with attachment. Attachment to pleasant things is real, it does not have to be shunned as object of mindfulness. In order to develop understanding of ultimate realities it is essential to know when the object which is experienced is a concept and when an ultimate reality. Mental phenomena and physical phenomena appear time and again. Through the bodysense hardness, softness, heat and cold can be experienced. They have their own characteristics and when mindfulness arises it can be directly aware of them. It can be verified by ones own experience that hardness is only a physical element, no matter whether it is in the body or in the things outside. Direct understanding of ultimate realities will gradually lead to detachment from the idea of my body and my mind, from the idea of self. Through earsense sound is experienced. One usually pays attention to the origin or the quality of sound, one pays attention to the voice of someone or to music. At such moments there is thinking of concepts. When there are conditions for the arising of mindfulness, it can be aware of the characteristic of sound, a physical phenomenon which can be heard. It appears merely for a moment and then it falls away. Sound does not belong to anyone, it is merely an element, non- self. Is it helpful to know this? Knowing that even the sound of music one enjoys is only a physical element seems very prosaic. One can enjoy the pleasant things of life, but in between there can be a moment of developing understanding of ultimate realities. Sound is real, hearing is real, enjoyment of music is real, they are all realities which can be known as they are: impermanent and non-self. Different objects can be experienced through one doorway at a time. Hearing experiences sound through the ears. Seeing experiences visible object or colour through the eyes. Hearing cannot see, seeing cannot hear, there is only one citta at a time. There is no self who sees or hears, the seeing sees, the hearing hears. Through the development of insight one can verify that there is no self who coordinates seeing, hearing and all the other experiences. In the ultimate sense life is one moment of experiencing an object. When we are thinking of a person or a thing, we have an image of a whole, and then the object at that moment is a concept. At the moment of mindfulness, however, only one reality at a time, appearing through one of the six doorways, is the object. ***** Nina. #104396 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:21 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 8. nilovg Venerable Santacitto, I start with your last question. Op 13-jan-2010, om 4:27 heeft santa_esi09 het volgende geschreven: > > S: Could you give a further explanation of what different levels of > understanding the Dhamma so that one could practice solely > vipassana or solely samatha? I ask this because there are some > people who experience samadhi dan insight in the same course of > practice. -------- N: Pa~n~naa in samatha understands kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala, but it does not understand kusala and akusala as anattaa. For samatha it is very necessary to understand kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala. If he confuses these he takes for detachment what is in fact clinging. Pa~n~naa of vipassanaa understands whatever arises, be it kusala or akusala, as only a conditioned dhamma, non-self. -------- S: Therefore, one who attains calm in the samatha should turn it into insight in the sense one should look at that attainment samatha as impermanent, suffering and non-self in order to attain liberation, right? ------------- N: The person who attains jhaana can, when he emerges from jhaana, be aware of the jhaanafactors. He should develop all stages of insight from the beginning, being aware of naama and ruupa and distinguishing their different characteristics, in order to attain enlightenment. Your questions remind me of the Yuganaddha sutta: in tandem or coupled, AN III, 156, Book of the Fours. But perhaps you know this sutta. Jon gives a good summary in an old post (see on the home page to the left the files section, then Useful posts, and then the letter Y of Yuganaddha ): Jon: Here are the 4 ways again, with extracts from footnotes to the translation [passages in square brackets are mine]: 1. After developing samatha The footnote says that this refers to one who makes tranquillity the vehicle of his practice (samatha-yaanika). Tranquillity here refers to access concentration, the jhanas or the formless attainments. 2. Before developing samatha The commentary reads: "This refers to one who by his natural bent first attains to insight and then, based on insight produces concentration (samadhi)." The sub-com reads: "This is one who makes insight the vehicle (vipassanaa-yaanika)." 3. In conjunction with the development of samatha [This is the instance of insight being 'based on' jhana. The insight arises after emerging from jhana, and takes the jhana moments as its object. This is the 'yoked/conjoined' instance.]. 4. By overcoming the corruptions (ie without any part being played by samatha) The footnote reads: 'According to AA [the commentary], the "agitation" (uddhacca) meant here is a reaction to the arising of the ten "corruptions of insight" when they are wrongly taken as indication path-attainment. The term dhammavitakka, "thoughts about higher states" is taken to refer to the same ten corruptions. ' ----------- > S: Actually, your answer in this point is what I have in my mind > with regard to the third question. I feel that while understanding > the Dhamma or in other word, the concept of anicca, dukkka, and > anatta which are the understanding that should be developed in the > vipassana, even while practicing tranquil meditation, such person > will not take any experience in that particular meditation > including access concentration and jhana as the permanent, real > happiness and self. And I see that it is what you might say as > purification of mind (cittavisuddhi),isn't it? ------ N: Perhaps the sutta referred to above is the answer. Cittavisuddhi can refer to any level of samaadhi. When reflecting on the teachings it is included in the subject of meditation that is Recollection of the Dhamma and this can occur in daily life. Mostly we take this reflection for my reflection, but we can learn that it just arises because of conditions, that it is a mere dhamma. -------- > > S: Yap I agree that that the degree of concentration is not > necessarily access or jhana, but also there is another degree > called khanikasamadhi which is generally accepted as the only type > concentration achieved in the vipassana. So here the conclusion is > that any kind of concentration whether khanika, upacara or jhana is > of purification of mind when a person does not look at it as > 'self', or when a person sees them as mere nama and rupa, right? If > that so, I feel comforting. > ---------- > N: Yes. In the development of the eightfold Path right > concentration performs its function while it accompanies right > understanding. It focusses on the naama or ruupa that appears. This > happens because of conditions, no self who decides to focus on > naama and ruupa. As right understanding develops also concentration > grows. When enlightenment is attained and nibbaana is the object, > samaadhi has, even for a person who did not develop jhaana, the > strength of the first stage of jhaana. --------- with respect, Nina. #104397 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:45 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 15. nilovg Dear Han, Op 13-jan-2010, om 6:52 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > 1. Uppatti.t.thaanavaara > > 2. Mahaavaara > > 2.1. Anusayavaara > Anuloma-puggala > Anuloma-okaasa > Anuloma-puggalokaasa > Pa.tiloma-puggala > Pa.tiloma-okaasa > Pa.tiloma-puggalokaasa -------- N: you have given some headings. I see that you had given these before in an old post which I kept in my files. Pa.tiloma is here the negative method: where does the latent tendency of sense desire of aversion not arise? Thus, which objects,etc. Okaasa may be the place: the plane of existence, as you mentioned in an older post. In the brahma planes there are no conditions for the arising of dosa, but the latent tendency of dosa has not been eradicated if that person is not an anaagaami. Puggala:the person who has such or such latent tendency not yet eradicated or who has. A clue to these headings you find in the 'Guide through the Abhidhamma Pi.taka', by Ven. NYanatiloka. Do you have this? It is under Anusaya Yamaka (p. 104). But this is in short. -------- Thus far we had pa.tighaanusaya. This conditions the arising of dosa- muuulacitta that has aversion of an unpleasant object: be it feeling or an unpleasant sense object. In that way a new accumulation is added each time dosa-muulacitta arises. It shows us the danger of accumulating akusala. And this is not a question of years or one lifespan but of aeons. Rather frightening, a good reminder to develop vipassanaa, the only way that there can eventually be eradication of anusayas. This is all for now. Next time some more on unpleasant feeling on account of regret of declining of jhaana, but that is not strong dosa and is not accumulated adding more to the latent tendency of pa.tigha. Nina. #104398 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: stories, stories. nilovg Hi Howard, I kept on considering what you had written to Sarah. Op 12-jan-2010, om 15:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I don't actually believe that you and I and "this year" etc are utter > > fictions in the same way and to the same degree as are selves, > souls, > and > > unicorns. -------- N: I know what you mean here. Unicorn or pink elephant is rather absurd, but person is less absurd, it is based on the five khandhas. I think a lot on persons and all the things connected with my social life. Thinking is usually with attachment. I am attached to persons. So, all this thinking is rather useless, but it is conditioned, it arises. We cannot tell ourselves: do not think. Thinking itself is naama, a conditioned reality. We attach so much to thinking, we live in our own world of thinking. Then I listen to a recording by Kh Sujin about seeing and hearing, and I find this so refreshing, sobering. When seeing appears there cannot be hearing at the same time. Such realities can be investigated more. Their arising and falling away is not yet experienced, but insight can be developed to that stage. Whereas when we are thinking all the time we are far away from the characteristic of impermanence. All these people we think of, it seems that they are there already and that they stay. We are far away from the truth, from reality. Little by little we can learn about the difference between thinking of stories and investigating realities. Nina. #104399 From: han tun Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:40 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 15. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. Your explanations help me more than my Burmese books which are even more difficult. > Nina: A clue to these headings you find in the 'Guide through the Abhidhamma Pi.taka', by Ven. NYanatiloka. Do you have this? It is under Anusaya Yamaka (p. 104). But this is in short. Han: I do not have any English book on Yamaka. If I can get any English book on Yamaka on-line, please let me know. Respectfully, Han