#104800 	From: "drokpa" <drokpa.monk@...>
Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:09 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	dhdipa
  	

Dear Lukas and all,

It would be a great pleasure to know where, if not the exact source,  Ven Nhat
Hanh, reject that legend of Mahayana suttas aas authentic as the Theravada pali
canon and take only the Pali suttas as Buddha word...or at least any further
details about it if possible.

Thanks

With Metta,
Drokpa monk

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:
>
> Hi, Lukas -
>
> In a message dated 1/30/2010 1:33:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> szmicio@... writes:
>
> Dear  Howard,
>
> >I had written <most especially  the two baskets of  suttas and vinaya,
> > which are universally  considered
> > among  "Theravadins" and among many Mahayanists  to be the  word of the
> > Buddha.>, only because there isn't universal  agreement  that the
> Abhidhamma
> > Pitaka is the direct word of the  Buddha.
>
> L: In theravada 3 baskets are holy words of the Buddha.  Tradition is very
> clear of this.
> I dont know were you get your  info?
> ------------------------------------------------------
<...>



#104801 	From: "colette" <ksheri3@...>
Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:52 am
Subject: strictly techinque 	ksheri3
  	

[Dieter]
>
> When you mean by 'state of samadhi '  a calm and  peaceful mind   I agree ..
sati isn't really developed otherwise
> ( compare with the beginning of the  Maha Satipatthana Sutta)  and then sati
is only the first of the 7 wings ..but I think you know that ..
>

colette: this is strictly technique and mainly my lack of understand of Pali and
....

colette

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
>
> Good evening Colette, (Ken O)
>
> thanks for your comment ,
>
> you wrote:
>
> Your parley w/ Ken O. has given me such a comfort knowing that we both share
similar frustrations. I was gonna make a jest at your continual beating your
head against a brick wall through your continued attempts to help KO arrive at
your understanding of how a person "releases" their preconceptions and the
dependence on those preconceptions which form their reality, AS THE MEANS OF
ACHIEVING A STATE OF SAMADHI with which they can do whatever they choose to do.
>
> It's a very REFLECTIVE display of consiousness.
>
> D: wondering what you would have said about my  parley   w/Ken H... ;-)
<...>



#104802 	From: "charlest" <dhammasaro@...>
Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:03 am
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	dhammasaro
  	

Good friend Dieter Moeller,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
>
>... snip
>
> P.S.:  I am wondering that only Alex responded to the recent  remarks about
Acharn Cha and.>>


C:  FWIW...

Perhaps, I will after this interesting dialogue slows or ends...

One may accuse me of being a fan of Acharn Cha, Acharn Mun (Man) and other Thai
"meditation masters."

I happily accept the accusation...

peace...

metta (maitri),

Chuck



#104803 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:22 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	upasaka_howard
  	

Hi, Bhante -

In a message dated 1/30/2010 5:18:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
drokpa.monk@... writes:

Thanks  Lukas, Howard and all,

Well Howard I do know what 'Hina' means. And  eventhough I am not that
concern about so called this yana and that yana, I  was ordained in Theravada
tradition. But whenever Tibetan monks see me they  whisper each other - there
goes a 'hinayana monk'. So what keep my thoughts  bothering is - were early
Mahayanists really used the term 'Hinayana' in the  way it is used today???
Even in Kenpo's (Tibetan monastic teachers or monks)  Bodhicarya-avatara
class he says Hinayanists don't have the realization of  Phenomenons, Sravakas
only refrain from doing wrong but don't bother really to  help others
claiming Mahayana as greater than sravakayana or rather may be  Hinayana (I
wander
if they even know how and in what context the word even  came into being),
and so on....

With Metta,
Drokpa (gypsy) monk
===============================
     So, you are a Theravadin bhikkhu residing with  Mahayanist bhikkshus?
That is unusual - though Bhikkhu Bodhi is at a monastery  that has both
Theravadin and (Chinese) Mahayanist monks. BTW, I didn't realize  that you
actually are a monk. My apologies for not previously addressing you  properly!
     Those Mahayanists who speak of Theravadins as you  have indicated
simply do not understand what Theravada is, or, perhaps they have  encountered
the "wrong" Theravadins. ;-)

With metta,
Howard




Seamless

/A change in anything is a  change in  everything/

(Anonymous)




#104804 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:27 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	upasaka_howard
  	

Hi, Bhante -

In a message dated 1/30/2010 5:18:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
drokpa.monk@... writes:

Dear  Lukas and all,

It would be a great pleasure to know where, if not the  exact source,  Ven
Nhat Hanh, reject that legend of Mahayana suttas aas  authentic as the
Theravada pali canon and take only the Pali suttas as Buddha  word...or at least
any further details about it if  possible.

Thanks

With Metta,
Drokpa monk
=================================
     I have several books by Ven Thich Nhat Hanh, and  I don't recall in
which I read this, but what he said was that it is the Pali  suttas that are
the Buddha word. It turns out, it seems, that Vietnamese "Zen" -  I forget the
Vietnamese name for the Ch'an tradition - incorporates the  Pali suttas and
greatly values them.

With metta,
Howard



Seamless

/A change in anything is a  change in  everything/

(Anonymous)




#104805 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:58 pm
Subject: was: Sravaka. now: Abh origins 	truth_aerator
  	

Dear all,

Both internal sutta evidence, Historians with some Theravadin Bhikkhus are clear
on this. Abhidhamma as a piece of literature (pitaka) is much later than most of
sutta-pitaka. None of the suttas in early Sutta-Pitaka talk about Theravada
Abhidhamma specific concepts. This is why various Abhidhamma schools quote the
same suttas to support their different assertions. While the 18 early schools
had similar Suttasa, and same core ideas, the Abhidhamma was vastly different.
Different scholar monks had different opinions.

In the Suttas such as DN16 the Buddha did say that no matter what any Elder or
any group of elder monks say - compare it with the SUTTAS and Vinaya.  No
mention of Abh.

Furthermore the Theravada Orthodoxy says that Buddha taught the Abhidhamma to
Ven. Sariputta (after He taught to Tavatisma devas) and the Abh that we have is
what was taught to Ven. Sariputta... Okay. Different traditions claim that their
Abhidhamma was taught to Sariputta. So which tradition are we to believe?  When
it comes to schisms, there are two sides to every schism, and so it is premature
to call schismatic sects to be the wrong ones. Maybe a good sect split from a
corrupted one, rather than corrupted sect splitting from an uncorrupted one? One
of the suggestions by historians is that different schools created different
Abhidhammas as a sort of banner to advertise the difference in theory held
between different schools. This happens when monks become scholars rather than
practitioners...

Furthermore if we are to believe the lack of Historical and internal evidence on
the story of Buddha teaching the Higher Doctrine, the Abhidhamma to the Devas in
Tavatimsa Heaven,  then why not believe that Nagarjuna has recovered the "Higher
Doctrine" from the Serpent Realm?  One of the reason He taught there is that to
fully understand it, you need to hear it in a single session lasting for months.
Of course none of Humans can sit and listen to a lecture lasting months, so he
taught Devas who could. If this is so, what use is it for us?


Why not believe in the 2nd and 3rd turning of the Wheel of Dhamma if we believe
solely in what the tradition (and which one?) says?
IMHO.



With lots of metta,

Alex



#104806 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:09 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	truth_aerator
  	

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:
>
> Hi, Bhante -
>
> In a message dated 1/30/2010 5:18:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> drokpa.monk@... writes:
>
> Dear  Lukas and all,
>
> It would be a great pleasure to know where, if not the  exact source,  Ven
> Nhat Hanh, reject that legend of Mahayana suttas aas  authentic as the
> Theravada pali canon and take only the Pali suttas as Buddha  word...or at
least
> any further details about it if  possible.
>
> Thanks
>
> With Metta,
> Drokpa monk
> =================================
>     I have several books by Ven Thich Nhat Hanh, and  I don't recall in
> which I read this, but what he said was that it is the Pali  suttas that are
> the Buddha word. It turns out, it seems, that Vietnamese "Zen" -  I forget the
> Vietnamese name for the Ch'an tradition - incorporates the  Pali suttas and
> greatly values them.
>
> With metta,
> Howard



Hello Howard, all,

In "understanding our mind"  on page 248
The Venerable talked how Abhidhamma was systematization of Buddha's teaching by
his disciples after He has passed away.

http://books.google.com/books?id=uoOZLj-ta0QC&pg=PA248&lpg=PA248&dq=thich+nhat+h\
anh+on+abhidharma&source=bl&ots=xfx5Jtl6Wl&sig=FyQKIwYzE7nW_ZdOZ0G7fH_EzCw&hl=en\
&ei=_dVkS5i3LoGqswOn36SdAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBMQ6AEwB\
Q#v=onepage&q=thich%20nhat%20hanh%20on%20abhidharma&f=false


Thien Buddhism (Thien Tong) is the Vietnamese name for the school of Zen
Buddhism. Thien is ultimately derived from Chan Zong, itself a derivative of the
Sanskrit  "Dhyana".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_Buddhism


Hope it helps,


With metta,

Alex


#104807 	From: "drokpa" <drokpa.monk@...>
Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:51 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	dhdipa
  	

Dear Howard,

Yes, I am a monk ordained under Theravada tradition, and presently, living among
Tibetan vajrayana environment. I am here to learn Madhyamaka and Yogacara
tradition and their philosophy. So I take what I need that I find rational, and
full of sense, rest I just leave them there as I found them...

I just went through venerable Thich Nhat Hanh's biography , and little bit of
the online book provided by Alex. The venerable seems to me knows well bit of
most Buddhist tradition...and that's why he could see the beauties of all
tradition.

With Metta,

Monk

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:
<...>
> =================================
>     I have several books by Ven Thich Nhat Hanh, and  I don't recall in
> which I read this, but what he said was that it is the Pali  suttas that are
> the Buddha word. It turns out, it seems, that Vietnamese "Zen" -  I forget the
> Vietnamese name for the Ch'an tradition - incorporates the  Pali suttas and
> greatly values them.
>
> With metta,
> Howard
<...>


#104808 	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu.samahita@...>
Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:03 pm
Subject: The 8 Steps to End all Suffering! 	bhikkhu.sama...
  	

Friends:

   The Noble 8-fold Way:

From right View <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_View.htm>
comes right Motivation.
From right Motivation
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Motivation.htm>  comes
right Speech.
From right Speech
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Speech.htm>  comes right
Action.
From right Action
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Action.htm>  comes right
Livelihood.
From right Livelihood
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Livelihood.htm>  comes
right Effort.
From right Effort
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Effort.htm>  comes right
Awareness.
From right Awareness
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Awareness.htm>  comes right
Concentration.
From right Concentration
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Concentration.htm>  comes
right Understanding.
From right Understanding comes right mental Release.
From right Release comes full Freedom, Bliss, and Peace!
Thus opened are the doors to the Deathless State...!!!



Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 18
  <http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103>
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103
  <http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html

  Note the 8 spokes in the wheel!

<..>

Have a nice & noble day!


Friendship is the Greatest!
  <http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhikkhu_Samahita> Bhikkhu
Samahita _/\_ Sri
<...>



#104809 	From: Lukas <szmicio@...>
Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:00 pm
Subject: was: Sravaka. now: Abh origins 	szmicio
  	

Dear Alex, Howard and Bhante drokpa,

Theravada is: Thera - Elders, vada - says, teach. This includes Vinaya, Sutta
and Abhidhamma as holy Buddhas words. and commentaries as another holy Texts but
made by theras.

Personaly I dont know any mahayanist who would reject any of their holy text
because of historical notes.
Mahayana had a lot of 1 tousand and more after Buddha Texts, and mahayanists
never says: 'oh this Sutta is not a Buddha teaching cause it's 1 tousand years
after Buddha'.

They dont do this. They have saddha. They develop kusala and dont wonder on
historical issues, that are not imporatnt at all.

Best wishes
Lukas

>Furthermore if we are to believe the lack of Historical and internal >evidence
on the story of Buddha teaching the Higher Doctrine, the Abhidhamma to the Devas
in Tavatimsa Heaven, then why not believe that Nagarjuna has recovered the
"Higher Doctrine" from the Serpent Realm? One of the reason He taught there is
that to fully understand it, you need to hear it in a single session lasting for
months. Of course none of Humans can sit and listen to a lecture lasting months,
so he taught Devas who could. If this is so, what use is it for us?

>Why not believe in the 2nd and 3rd turning of the Wheel of Dhamma if we
>believe solely in what the tradition (and which one?) says?
>IMHO.


#104810 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:12 am
Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 10. 	nilovg
  	

Dear friends,

Most of the time there is forgetfulness of realities, there is
thinking of concepts. However, in between the moments of thinking
there can be mindfulness of one reality appearing through one of the
six doors, an ultimate reality which is either a mental reality or a
physical reality. The characteristics of different realities can
gradually be learnt. When we read a book we think of the meaning of
the letters and of the story. But there are also moments of seeing
merely what is visible, of what appears through eye-sense. It is
because of remembrance that we know the meaning of what we read.
Remembrance is a mental factor arising together with the citta, it is
not self. Also remembrance can be understood as it is. It seems that
thinking occurs at the same time as seeing, but they are different
cittas with different characteristics.The characteristics of
different realities can be investigated, no matter whether we are
seeing, reading, hearing or paying attention to the meaning of words.
When this has been understood we will see that objects of awareness
are never lacking in our daily life. There are six doorways, there
are objects experienced through these six doorways and there are the
realities which experience these objects. That is our life.
Right understanding develops very gradually, it has to be developed
during countless lives before it can become full understanding of all
realities which appear. There are several stages of insight in the
course of the development of right understanding. Even the first
stage of insight, which is merely a beginning stage of insight, is
difficult to reach. At this stage the different characteristics of
the mental reality and of the physical reality which appear are
clearly distinguished from each other. At each higher stage of
insight understanding becomes keener. The objects of understanding
are the same: the mental phenomena and physical phenomena which
appear, but understanding of them becomes clearer. When conditioned
realities have been clearly understood as impermanent, dukkha and non-
self, there can be the experience of nibb?na, the unconditioned
reality. The citta which experiences nibb?na is a ?supramundane?
citta, it is of a plane of citta which is higher than the plane of
cittas which experience sense objects or the plane of cittas with
absorption.

******
Nina.



#104811 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:20 am
Subject: "Desire and Delight for Dhamma" Dhammaraga & Dhammanandi 	truth_aerator
  	

Dear Nina all,

In the suttas there is expression

That
"Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental  fermentations [alex:
Arhatship]. Or, if not, then ? through this very Dhamma-passion, this
Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters1 ? he
is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never
again to return from that world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.052.than.html

Similar in MN64
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/064-maha-malun\
khyaputta-e1.html


Through a certain practice if one doesn't reach Arhatship, then through
"Dhammaragena dhammanandiya" one can become an Anagami.


So there can be "Dhammaraga dhammanandi" that does lead to a very high goal,
Anagamiship.


So it can solve a certain paradox of desire and the path to the end of disire. 
One has desire and delight for Dhamma up to Anagami level. Only at that level is
there enough momentum, skill and accumulations to practice without  Dhammaraga &
dhammanandi.

Raga (Lust) and Nandi (delight)  *can* be helpful if there are Dhammaraga rather
than kamaraga.



With metta,

Alex


#104812 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:25 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Natural Way of Development 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear Alex

>Jon, when you have said that "kusala can arise spontaneously" , are you saying
that it is un-caused, un-produced, not brought into being?
>
>If kusala is un-caused, un-produced, not brought into being, then we don't need
to do anything because there is no cause to make it arise or to strengthen the
arisen kusala state. If something is un-caused, un-produced, not brought into
being, then nothing can affect it - and thus all efforts are ultimately
fruitless. Is this what you are saying?
>

KO:? Do seeing arise spontaneously,?? Do craving arise spontaneously when one
see a beautiful object.? Since they arise spontaneoulsy and with cause, how
could kusala be different from them,?unless Nibbana is the object as?the only
uncause is Nibbana.

Cheers
Ken O



#104813 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:31 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear Dieter

Panna is the only cetasika that could eradicate the aksuala.? The rest of the
factors are supporting cetasikas or helping ones.? Just like mindulfness helps
to guard.? Even sila is a good inhibiting?factor,?as it becomes paccaya for the
arising of kusala.??



Cheers
Ken O


?
>?
>Hi Ken O,
>
>sorry for delay, I have still your last message (24th) in mind ..
>it would be quite useful for understanding to translate your comments into the
pattern of the 8 fold Noble Path , ideally corresponding to the Sila- Samadhi -
Panna sequence of the training.
>Though perhaps a general discussion about Acharn Sujin's approach as I
suggested to Nina and Sarah could make it easier for a start..
>
>with Metta Dieter
>



#104814 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:47 am
Subject: [dsg] Re: The Natural Way of Development 	truth_aerator
  	

Dear KenO, and all,


>--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Alex
> KO:? Do seeing arise spontaneously,

It arises due to cause and effect. Furthermore bare seeing (as opposed to
looking for...) itself is morally indeterminate.


>Do craving arise spontaneously when one see a beautiful object.? >Since they
arise spontaneoulsy and with cause, how could kusala be >different from
them,?unless Nibbana is the object as?the only >uncause is Nibbana.
>
> Cheers
> Ken O


Craving arises because it was indulged in the past and/or  due to tendencies and
defilements.


Similar with kusala. Proper and wise practice makes it better and better.


IMHO,


With metta,

Alex



#104815 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:51 am
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] terms and realities. 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear Vince


>yes, I agree. But also, note when we say that we were sleeping,
>we are knowing only by inference, because in that moment it was
>not citta. So, Are we sure the house existed while we were
>sleeping?. We cannot know it. Just we are inferring that.
>

KO:? The house does not exist when we are sleeping.? That is for sure,?there is
no?inference.? Because citta is one at a time and one object at a time.? While
it is sleeping, it is the arisen of bhavanga citta.? There is no house, no car,
no seeing, hearing etc during the arisen of bhavanga citta.? Just the
continuation of life.


>In the case of a situation of unveiled -self, the knowledge of the
>dependent relation between naama&rupa and consciousness would become
>an automatic and unavoidable consequence. So in fact there are not
>two ways driving to different lands.
>However, at least I understand that when one try to investigate
>emptiness and reality, also one should be aware of that. I mean, what
>in Abhidhamma we name "real" it is the result of both consciousness
>and nama&rupa arising here-and-now in a co-dependent way.
>
KO:? Yes seeing depends on both seeing citta and rupa.? But rupa does not
experience anything, it is nama (the seeing citta)?that experiece.? I prefer
self concept as miccha ditthi which is a cetasika which rise with lobha.? I like
definition to be clear so when we read suttas, we are clear on the meanings.


>When we say "rupa exist while there is experience of rupa", also it
>means: "rupa arises while there is arising of consciousness" .

KO:? Rupa does exist externally whether there is the arisen of citta or not as
external rupa is conditioned by temperature.? for eg a rock.


>
>I understand it can be important regarding emptiness. Of course,
>consequences of dependent origination explanation are enormous
>as happens with Abhidhamma, and I don't have idea about
>pattica-sammupada in depth; just I talk about this concrete point.
>Well, sorry but I don't have enough knowledge of dhamma to explain me
>better. Hope you understand my point regarding D.O.

KO:? Its ok, my understanding is limited also.??We will learn from each other
when we go along.? ?Under D.O in Abhidhamma, - Nama?is refer to cetasikas while
rupa is the rupa themselves.?? It is citta that condition nama and rupa.?


Cheers
Ken O



#104816 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:59 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Natural Way of Development 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear Alex


>It arises due to cause and effect. Furthermore bare seeing (as opposed to
looking for...) itself is morally indeterminate.

KO:? Hmm, lets not infuse ouselves with languages?like seeing and looking and
over look the understanding of dhamma.? Seeing itself is indeterminate but what
follows after seeing is whether we are morally restraint or not.?The object when
we see till the object when are morally restraint or not, is the same object.?
So the development of panna is important because there are only two ways about
it in worldlines, either kusala or akusala javanas.? Panna could only be develop
if there an understanding of not self in dhammas.?

>
>Craving arises because it was indulged in the past and/or due to tendencies and
defilements.
>
>Similar with kusala. Proper and wise practice makes it better and better.

KO:? Wise practise is only with the knowledge of anatta and there is only
possible with panna.? One cannot have wise practise if there is concept of self
in development as self is ditthi.??Proper practise is the development of panna,
is the consideration of dhamma, is the?understanding of reality.?



Cheers
Ken O



#104817 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:21 am
Subject: Satipatthana was :Notes about the three rounds, no 4. 	moellerdieter
  	

Dear Nina,

here (satipatthana)  is a further topic waiting to be discussed which -
understanding you correctly - in its practise means path application , i.e. the
4th Noble Truth (?)

you wrote:

N: When sacca ñåna gradually develops it can condition the arising of
satipattåna, and then kicca ñåna, knowledge of the task,
begins to develop. When we are convinced that there is no other way leading to
enlightenment but the development of satipatthåna, we shall not
deviate from the right Path. The right Path is the fourth noble Truth and this
lead to the cessation of dukkha, nibbåna, which is the third noble Truth.
Acharn Sujin stressed the importance of the three phases because they  make it
apparent that sati-sampajañña can only arise when there is a firm
foundation knowledge of the objects of satipatthåna and the way of its
development. It reminds us that paññå is gradually developed from
life to life. The level of intellectual understanding, pariyatti, conditions
awareness and understanding of the characteristics of nama and rupa that
appear now. This is the beginning of patipatti, the level of practice and this
will eventually lead to the realization of the truth, pativedha. Very gradually
nåma can be known as nåma and rúpa as rúpa, and stages of insight can arise,
but we do not know when they will arise. It takes many lives, but we should not
be impatient.'




D: for a start I like to copy a first part  from Nyantiloka's dictionary ,
perhaps you have already some comments comparing  with his definition.. ..

Satipat.t.ha-na: the 4 'foundations of mindfulness', lit. 'awarenesses of
mindfulness' (sati-upat.t.ha-na), are: contemplation of body, feeling, mind
and mind-objects. - For sati, s. prec.
A detailed treatment of this subject, so important for the practice of Buddhist
mental culture, is given in the 2 Satipat.t.ha-na Suttas (D. 22; M. 10), which
at the start as well as the conclusion, proclaim the weighty words: "The only
way that leads to the attainment of purity, to the overcoming of sorrow and
lamentation, to the end of pain and grief, to the entering of the right path,
and to the realization of Nibba-na is the 4 foundations of mindfulness."

After these introductory words, and upon the question which these 4 are, it is
said that the monk dwells in contemplation of the body, the feelings, the mind,
and the mind-objects, "ardent, clearly conscious and mindful, after putting away
worldly greed and grief."

These 4 contemplations are in reality not to be taken as merely separate
exercises, but on the contrary, at least in many cases, especially in the
absorptions, as things inseparably associated with each other. Thereby the
Satipat.t.ha-na Sutta forms an illustration of the way in which these 4
contemplations relating to the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.)
simultaneously come to be realized, and finally lead to insight into the
impersonality of all existence.



with Metta Dieter




#104818 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:40 am
Subject: Re:strictly techinque 	moellerdieter
  	

Hi Colette,


you wrote :

(D:  compare with the beginning of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta  and then sati is
only the first of the 7 wings ..but I think you know that ..)
>

colette: this is strictly technique and mainly my lack of understand of Pali and
....


D:  I do not know how familar you are with the Suttas..
In case you have time you may read the introductions to both for example By
Thanissaro Bhikkhu ..(?)
I think  it is not very difficult even with a lack of Pali ..


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/index.html

with Metta Dieter




#104819 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:43 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma in Chinese 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear Nina

you ask me one question before: How would you begin to explain Abhidhamma?

Abhidhamma is a living teaching of the Buddha.? It helps one to understand what
is dhamma and how?it helps to make sense of our world.? More importantly how it
helps one?to reach to the other shore.

It is like a dictionary which explains the words in a story, Abhidhamma?explains
what is meant in the sutta.? It?provides clarity the terms,?the?interactions of
our consciouness, mental formations and rupas.? It develops the understanding of
conditions and causes of dhamma, resulting a more penetrative understanding of
not self.? It enhances the faith that dhamma is visible right here and right
now, and for one to see and understand.

With considering of Abhidhamma, there is understanding of the dhamma, there
is?knowledge of the?sense of our world, and there is more?confidence in the
path.? This lead?to patience and courage in whatever we?are?in this world or
next.


Cheers
Ken O


>?
>Dear Ken O,
>I sent your letter on to the pali list, since there are several
>Chinese speaking people there.
>Nina.
>Op 22-jan-2010, om 6:49 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven:
>
>> Chew has kindly sent me this link which I felt should be share in
>> this forum. Thanks Chew for your gift of dhamma.
>>
>> A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma in Chinese
>
>>
>



#104820 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:01 am
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	moellerdieter
  	

Hi Chuck ...,

you wrote:

(D: P.S.: I am wondering that only Alex responded to the recent remarks about
Acharn Cha and.>>)


C: FWIW...

Perhaps, I will after this interesting dialogue slows or ends...
One may accuse me of being a fan of Acharn Cha, Acharn Mun (Man) and other Thai
"meditation masters."
I happily accept the accusation...
peace...


D:  would be nice  to learn your conclusion lateron.. in peace of course  ;-)


with Metta Dieter




#104821 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:28 am
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	moellerdieter
  	

Hi Ken O,

you wrote:


(  D. quoting:.... 'Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up &
putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus
the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow
dispassionate, might gain release there.

KO:  Thanks Dieter, this sutta show that we dont need to be an Arahant to
understand not self, impermanence and suffer.  Because only panna would know the
growth and decline of this body.  The growth and decline of the body is by
conditions, the natural phenomena.  And understand the moment that rupa is not
self, that is the growing of dispassion.


D:  one even doesn't have to be a disciple of the Buddha Dhamma..


KO: (>"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness, ' the
uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it,
unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is
that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the
uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is
what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow
disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain
release from it.")

   Again, this shows, as long as one hold on the idea that there is a self, then
one is unable to release from it. If there is an idea that there must be a self
that is developing, it would only condition more latency.



D: KO ..there is no if , but there is ' For a long time this has been relished,
appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This
is me, this is my self, this is what I am.'
The denial of the intellect - there is no I /Self must be met by the heart ,
which needs to get disentchanted in order to grow dispassionate, otherwise it is
only a supression (  some friends of  neuro science may refer to the dominant
left sphere of the brain)



(  D: .........Please note by 'following that path ...' )

KO:  there is definitely the 4NT path whether there is arisen of the Buddha or
not.  Only with the arisen of Buddha, then the 4NT path is make known.


D: yes ..



Ken O:   The path all accumualtes in panna.  Only with arisen of panna, will
sila be samma, samadhi is samma and all the other factors.


D: let 's say all accumulates to panna as the counterpart to avijja /ignorance ,
still  the development of panna needs sila and samadhi as supporting condition
...and then  panna is only a  mean for liberation .
Perhaps I am wrong but  you seem to put the cart before the horse..

(>D: well, one needs panna (in particular insight of anicca, dukkha and anatta)
to get rid off ignorance (avijja) , and for the disciple the instruction to
realize that means the sila, samadhi , panna Path training.
Seemingly you assume to obtain that without the instructions of practise and its
translation by one's effort..>)

KO:  Whatever Buddha teach is satipatthana.  And satipatthana is the
understanding of reality at the present moment.    As I said above, with the
arisen of panna, sila is samma or always kusala, similar to samadhi.  But there
could be miccha sila and miccha samadhi.  Panna does not depend on sila and
samadhi for development.   Rather only with panna, could sila and samadhi reach
perfection.


D: well, whatever the Buddha taught is in his own words : this is suffering,
this is the origin.., this the  ending... and this the way towards ending..., 
i.e. the 4 Noble Truths .   (about Satipatthana I just posted a mail to Nina
..we could take the issue  up from there lateron)

  It is useful to read N.' s defintion of Panna:

pañña-: 'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a very wide
field. The specific Buddhist knowledge or wisdom, however, as part of the Noble
Eightfold Path (magga, q.v.) to deliverance, is insight (vipassana-, q.v.), i.e.
that intuitive knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and the
realization of Nibba-na (s. ariyapuggala), and which consists in the penetration
of the impermanency (anicca, q.v.), misery (dukkha, s. sacca) and impersonality
(anatta-) of all forms of existence. Further details, s. under tilakkhan.a.

With regard to the condition of its arising one distinguishes 3 kinds of
knowledge knowledge based on thinking (cinta--maya--pañña-), knowledge based
on learning (suta-maya--pañña-), knowledge based on mental development
(bha-vana--maya--pañña-) (D. 33).

" 'Based on thinking' is that knowledge which one has accquired through one's
own thinking, without having learnt it from others. 'Based on learning' is that
knowledge which one has heard from others and thus acquired through learning.
'Based on mental development' is that knowledge which one has acquired through
mental development in this or that way, and which has reached the stage of full
concentration" (appana-, q.v.) (Vis.M. XIV).

Wisdom is one of the 5 mental faculties (s. bala), one of the 3 kinds of
training (sikkha-, q.v.), and one of the perfections (s. pa-rami-) For further
details, s. vipassana-, and the detailed exposition in Vis.M. XIV, 1-32.

unquote

to which of the 3 kinds of knowledge with regards to Panna arising did you refer
before?



with Metta Dieter




#104822 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:40 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Explaining Abhidhamma. 	nilovg
  	

Dear Ken O,

Op 31-jan-2010, om 18:43 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven:

> you ask me one question before: How would you begin to explain
> Abhidhamma?
>
> Abhidhamma is a living teaching of the Buddha.  It helps one to
> understand what is dhamma and how it helps to make sense of our
> world.  More importantly how it helps one to reach to the other shore.
>
> It is like a dictionary which explains the words in a story,
> Abhidhamma explains what is meant in the sutta.  It provides
> clarity the terms, the interactions of our consciouness, mental
> formations and rupas.  It develops the understanding of conditions
> and causes of dhamma, resulting a more penetrative understanding of
> not self.  It enhances the faith that dhamma is visible right here
> and right now, and for one to see and understand.
>
> With considering of Abhidhamma, there is understanding of the
> dhamma, there is knowledge of the sense of our world, and there is
> more confidence in the path.  This lead to patience and courage in
> whatever we are in this world or next.
--------
N: This is really very nice. I like your explanation very much and
will use points you give. Quite true, Abh. explains what is meant in
the sutta. Without the Abhidhamma we do not understand the sutta in
depth.

I also have a quote from Kh Sujin, her way of study. Explain first
paramattha dhammas:

<When there is a foundation knowledge for people who have studied
paramattha dhammas they can have understanding of them. It is the
same in the case of my book ?A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas?. If
someone reads from the beginning about citta, but he has no
foundation knowledge of paramattha dhamma, if he does not know what
paramattha dhamma is and how many of them there are, he will not be
able to thoroughly understand them. The correct understanding of
realities from the beginning is a most important foundation for the
development of pa???.
When we study and understand realities in this way, we shall see that
the realities are appearing just in conformity with what we studied.
Each saying in the Suttanta, even if it is short, is actually
Abhidhamma. The Suttanta and the Abhidhamma are in conformity with
each other. When we read a sutta we should also correctly understand
its essence, namely, the reality that is referred to.>

You know, I also think of a very impressive post by Suan: all the
Buddha ever taught is Abhidhamma. This was many years ago, and I
cannot trace it now.

-------
Nina.




#104823 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:51 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka 	nilovg
  	

Dear Dieter,
Op 30-jan-2010, om 20:42 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:

> D: well , Nina, we probably agree that there is no person or self
> in a deeper sense but a process of conditioning,
> but in communciation we may use conventional terms...
> What is requested here that the student applies that in his
> training (rouses his will) to avoid the arising of the
> unwholesome ,.taking care for the wholesome to develop ..etc.. (pls
> compare with kamma patha )
-------
N: No problem with using conventional terms.
You second phrase: yes he should train himself, but this is with
right understanding of naama and ruupa. That conditions most of all
kusala and restraint from akusala. When sati and pa~n~naa of the
level of satipatthaana arises, he is not involved in stories about
that bad man who insulted me. He realizes that hearing is
vipaakacitta condiitoned by kamma, and in this case not by thinking
about it, but by being aware of hearing immediately. and even when
aversion arises, he can be aware of it as a mere dhamma. He will not
take things so personal. It helps even when sati is still very weak.
What do you think? Any questions for Kh Sujin?
--------
>
> D. quotes N: <<Also right concentration even to the degree of
> jhaana should be seen as non-self. <<Otherwise the Eightfold Path
> is not developed......
> ---------
>
> D: I would like to come back on that and now instead illustrate
> 6,7,8 - the samadhi part of the path training with a quote Bhikkhu
> Bodhi used in his introduction to Right Effort ....
> In this simile the tall boy who picks the flowers represents
> concentration with its function of unifying the mind. But to unify
> the mind concentration needs support: the energy provided by right
> effort, which is like the boy who offers his back. It also requires
> the stabilizing awareness provided by mindfulness, which is like
> the boy who offers his shoulder. When right concentration receives
> this support, then empowered by right effort and balanced by right
> mindfulness it can draw in the scattered strands of thought and fix
> the mind firmly on its object.'
-----------
N: A very good simile . The factors support one another. But see in
the same article about energy:< For wholesome energy to become a
contributor to the path it has to be guided by right view and right
intention, and to work in association with the other path factors.
Otherwise, as the energy in ordinary wholesome states of mind, it
merely engenders an accumulation of merit that ripens within the
round of birth and death; it does not issue in liberation from the
round.>
Not without right understanding of the eightfold Path. If that is
lacking we cannot speak of pathfactors.
B.B. translate sammaa-sankappa,  right thinking, as right intention
which is not so good.
------
Nina.



#104824 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:31 pm
Subject: study, practice, & restaraunt menu simile 	truth_aerator
  	

Dear Nina, KenO,  and all,

What is the difference between study (pariyatti) and practice(patipada)?

It sounds as if there is none. Furthermore, just because study conditions
practice, it doesn't need to mean that it *causes* or is the same as practice.
It seems that some people overemphasize study over actual doing of what one has
studied.  After all, one cannot satisfy the hunger by reading the menu (rather
than eating it)!  Neither can one understand how the actual ingredients taste
like, until one actually eats the meal. Books may say that "such and such
quality feels like this and like that",  but can we really understand that
through reading? If a person has never tasted some exotic meal, can s/he know
how it really tastes like from other people's descriptions? It seems to me that
suttas and Abhidhamma are signposts.
Ultimately private experience contains much more nuances than what is actually
written. The defilements (and so on) and so on are far more varied, ingenious,
and subtle than what can be written as "one fits all".


Another thing. Suppose a highly esteemed and wise doctor has prescribed a
working medicine for a gravely sick patient. If the patient worships the doctor,
studies the pamphlet that comes with the medicine, enrolls into University
courses studying  medicine, bio-chemistry, biology, etc -  but does NOT follow
the instructions which say to "swollow the tablet with every meal". What will
happen? He will die, maybe even before graduating from Medical School.
Really, how much does the patient needs to know to get cured? In this case he
doesn't, just take the pill and follow instructions!


Similar with the wise and compassion Doctor, the Buddha. His teaching is NOT to
earn a PhD.  His teaching is a medicine to cure the "sickness".


IMHO.

With metta,

Alex


#104825 	From: Vince <cerovzt@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:28 pm
Subject: Re[4]: [dsg] terms and realities. 	cerovzt@...
  	

Dear Ken,

you wrote:

>>V:  So, Are we sure the house existed while we were
>>sleeping?. We cannot know it. Just we are inferring that.
> KO:? The house does not exist when we are sleeping.? That is for
> sure,?there is no?inference.? Because citta is one at a time and one
> object at a time.? While it is sleeping, it is the arisen of
> bhavanga citta.? There is no house, no car, no seeing, hearing etc
> during the arisen of bhavanga citta.? Just the continuation of life.

I understand also there is a need of continuation, but, How can we
know there is a bhavanga citta, except by inference?


> KO:? Yes seeing depends on both seeing citta and rupa.? But rupa
> does not experience anything, it is nama (the seeing citta)?that
> experiece.? I prefer self concept as miccha ditthi which is a
> cetasika which rise with lobha.? I like definition to be clear so
> when we read suttas, we are clear on the meanings.

Why you prefer that?. I have read in some places that sakkaya-ditthi
is the first wrong view, and also origin of the rest.
On these commentaries, it seems the wrong view of identification must
be previous to the wrong view of impermanence.
Well, I'm not sure about this needed order, just I comment you that.

See: (1)http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html#sakkaya-ditthi
(2) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html#samyojana
(3) http://tinyurl.com/ydmhca6


>>When we say "rupa exist while there is experience of rupa", also it
>>means: "rupa arises while there is arising of consciousness" .
> KO:? Rupa does exist externally whether there is the arisen of
> citta or not as external rupa is conditioned by temperature.? for eg
> a rock.

but temperature is one of the four elements (Hot element,
tejo-dhaatu). It lacks of any substance and also it is conditioned.

We can say rupa arises because conditions but I understand one should
be aware that any condition cannot exists without consciousness.

A condition is not rupa but a relation (understanding) established
by what is knowing here and now. It means that if there is not
consciousness there is not nama and rupa. And also, if there is not
nama and rupa there is not consciousness.


> KO:? Its ok, my understanding is limited also.??We will learn from
> each other when we go along.? ?Under D.O in Abhidhamma, - Nama?is
> refer to cetasikas while rupa is the rupa themselves.?? It is citta
> that condition nama and rupa.?

but, Don't you agree that also nama and rupa condition citta?

On the contrary, It doesn't mean that there is a primordial citta?



best,


Vince.




#104826 	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu.samahita@...>
Date: Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:41 pm
Subject: Glad Generous Giving! :-) 	bhikkhu.sama...
  	

Friends:

   Generosity is the first Perfection:

Generosity means willingness to give and share whatever.
Generosity means magnanimous and open-handed liberality.
Generosity means freedom from small and stingy pettiness.
Generosity means practicing charity for the poor and unfortunate.
Generosity means kind bigheartedness towards those worthy of it.
Generosity means warm-hearted and altruistic unselfishness.
Generosity provides the kammic cause for later wealth..
Giving causes Getting... No Giving causes Poverty!



The Blessed Buddha explained the treasure of generosity like this:
When a disciple of the Noble Ones whose mind and
mentality is all cleared of disgracing miserliness,
living at home, is freely generous and open-handed,
delighting in being magnanimous,
responsive to every request and,
is enjoying the giving of any alms.
Such is this treasure called generosity.
                                                            AN VII 6
<http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=204050>



Just as a filled pot, which is overturned,
pours out all its water, leaving nothing back,
even and exactly so should one give to those in need.
whether low, middle or high, like the overturned pot,
holding nothing back?!!!
                                                            Jataka Nidana
<http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132935>  [128-129]



The Generosity of Giving,
The Kindness in Speech,
The Benefit of Service,
The Impartiality of treating all Alike,
These 4 threads of Sympathy
upholds this world, like the axle do the cart!
                                                            AN II 32
<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html>



Giving food, one gives and later gets strength
Giving clothes, one gives and later gets beauty
Giving light, one gives and later gets vision
Giving transportation, one gives and later gets ease.
Giving shelter one gives all,
Yet one who instructs in the True Dhamma
- The supreme Teaching of the Buddhas -
Such one gives the quite divine ambrosia!
                                                            SN I 32
<http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507>



These are these five rewards of generosity:
One is liked and charming to people at large,
One is admired and respected by wise people,
One's good reputation is spread wide about,
One does not neglect a householder's true duty,
and with the break-up of the body - at the moment
of death - one reappears in a happy destination,
in the plane of the divine worlds!
                                                            AN V.35
<http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552>



There are these two kinds of gifts:
material gifts and gifts of Dhamma.
The supreme gift is that of Dhamma.
There are these two kinds of sharing:
material sharing and sharing of Dhamma.
The supreme sharing is that of Dhamma.
There are these two kinds of help:
Material help and help with the Dhamma.
This is the supreme of the two:
help with this subtle Dhamma ?
                                                            It 98
<http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404214>

The gift of Dhamma exceeds all other gifts.
                                                            Dhammapada
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/KN/Dhammapada.htm>  354



The Bodhisatta once as king Sivi gave
both his eyes to a beggar who was Sakka the
king deity in disguise, who desired to test him.
He remembered "While I was wishing to give,
while I was giving and after this giving there
was neither contrariety, nor opposition in my mind
since it was for the purpose of awakening itself!
Neither were these eyes, nor the rest of myself
disagreeable to me. Omniscience was dear to me,
therefore I gave both my eyes."
                                                            The Basket of
Conduct
                                                            Cariyapitaka I-8
                                                            Full story: Sivi
Jataka no. 499 <http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132609>



The Bodhisatta once as the Wise Hare gave his roasted body
as alms to a beggar by jumping into a fire:
He remembered: "There came a beggar and asked for food.
Myself I gave so that he might eat. In alms-giving there was
none equal to me. In alms I had thereby reached the absolute
ultimate perfection." From then and the rest of this world-cycle
the moon will display a characteristic 'hare-in-the-moon' sign!
                                                            Sasa-Jataka no.
316 <http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132609>



Giving of things, treasures, external possessions, job,
position, wife, and child is the first perfection of giving.
Giving the offer of one's organs, limbs, and senses is
the second higher perfection of giving.
Giving the sacrifice of one's life is the ultimate
perfection of giving.
                                                            The clarifier of
<http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=13069X>  sweet meaning 89
                                                            (Commentary on
Buddhavamsa)

Madhuratthavilasini [59]
                                                            Venerable
Buddhadatta: 5th century.



Generosity is the first mental perfection (parami):
Clinging and egoism creates internal panic and social tension.
Giving and sharing creates internal elation and external harmony...
What is gladly given, returns more than thousandfold!

More of the 10 mental perfections (paramis):
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/The_Ten_Perfections.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_10_mental_perfections_(parami)_in_thre
e_levels.htm

More on Generosity (
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/b_f/daana.htm> Dana) = The 1st
mental perfection:
  <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Glad_Giving.htm>
. . .
Have a nice & noble day!


Friendship is the Greatest!
  <http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhikkhu_Samahita> Bhikkhu
Samahita _/\_ Sri
<http://what-buddha-said.net/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemI
d=2053>  Lanka *
http://What-Buddha-Said.net <http://what-buddha-said.net/>

Glad Generous Giving!




#104827 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 12:00 am
Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 11. 	nilovg
  	

Dear friends,

All eight Path factors accompany the supramundane citta at the moment
of enlightenment. Defilements are subsequently eradicated at four
stages of enlightenment. The supramundane cittas which experience
nibb?na arise and then fall away immediately. The person who has not
yet attained the fourth and final stage of enlightenment, still has
defilements, but there are no more conditions to commit akusala kamma
to the degree that it can produce rebirth in an unhappy plane of
existence.
When one reads the words ?enlightenment? and ?supramundane?, one may
imagine that enlightenment is something mysterious, that it cannot
occur in daily life. However, it is the function of right
understanding to penetrate the true nature of realities in daily
life, and when it has been developed to the degree that enlightenment
can be attained, the supramundane citta which experiences nibb?na can
arise in daily life. Enlightenment can be attained even shortly after
akusala citta has arisen, if right understanding has penetrated its
true nature. We read in the Psalms of the Sisters (Ther?g?th?, Canto
I, 1) that a woman attained enlightenment in the kitchen. When she
noticed that the curry was burnt in the oven she realized the
characteristic of impermanence inherent in conditioned realities and
then attained enlightenment. Events in daily life can remind us of
the true nature of realities. If understanding could not develop in
daily life it would not be true understanding. We read that people in
the Buddha?s time could attain enlightenment even while they were
hearing the Buddha preach or just after his sermon. One may wonder
how they could attain enlightenment so quickly. They had accumulated
the right conditions for enlightenment during innumerable lives and
when time was ripe the supramundane cittas could arise.

*******
Nina.



#104828 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 2:11 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] "Desire and Delight for Dhamma" Dhammaraga & Dhammanandi 	nilovg
  	

Op 31-jan-2010, om 17:20 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

> That
> "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental
> fermentations [alex: Arhatship]. Or, if not, then ? through this
> very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total
> wasting away of the first five Fetters1 ? he is due to be reborn
> [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to
> return from that world.
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.052.than.html
>
> Similar in MN64
> http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/
> Majjhima2/064-maha-malunkhyaputta-e1.html
>
> Through a certain practice if one doesn't reach Arhatship, then
> through
> "Dhammaragena dhammanandiya" one can become an Anagami.
---------
N: I compared  MN 52, Atthakanagara Sutta. Ven. Bodhi's notes from
the co:
<Dhammaraagena dhammanandiyaa: These tersm signify desire and
attachment (chandaraaga) with respect to serinity and insight. If one
is asble to doscard all desire and attachment concerning serinity and
insight, one becomes an arahant; if one cannot discard them, one
becomes a non-returner and is reborn in the Pure Abodes.>
Thus, it is not through Dhammaraga dhammanandi, rather, he penetrates
the true characteristic of attachment when it arises. That is the
only way to eradicate it.
Also the co to mahaamalunkhyaputtasutta explains that dhamma is here
samatha and vipassanaa.

--------
Nina.




#104829 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 5:59 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana was :Notes about the three rounds, no 4. 	nilovg
  	

Dear Dieter,
Op 31-jan-2010, om 18:21 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:

> D: for a start I like to copy a first part from Nyantiloka's
> dictionary , perhaps you have already some comments comparing with
> his definition.. ..
>
> Satipat.t.ha-na: the 4 'foundations of mindfulness',....
> These 4 contemplations are in reality not to be taken as merely
> separate exercises, but on the contrary, at least in many cases,
> especially in the absorptions, as things inseparably associated
> with each other. Thereby the Satipat.t.ha-na Sutta forms an
> illustration of the way in which these 4 contemplations relating to
> the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.) simultaneously come to be
> realized, and finally lead to insight into the impersonality of all
> existence.
---------
N: No com,ment, except: he takes them in absorption inseparately
associated. Strange, since jhaana is not satipa.t.thaana.
As to having overcome covetousness and grief in this world,
See my message to you three years ago, Message #71101

<I quote part of the Co translated by Ven soma (the Way of mindfulness):
--------------------------
<"Having overcome" refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil
quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category
of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part
[tadangavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the
passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya].

Preliminary practice connected with the mundane path of mindfulness
is pointed out by the commentator here.

"In this world." In just this body. Here the body [kaya] is the world
[loka], in the sense of a thing crumbling.

As covetousness and grief are abandoned in feeling, consciousness,
and mental objects, too, the Vibhanga says: "Even the five aggregates
of clinging are the world."

Covetousness stands for sense desire; and grief, for anger. As sense
desire and anger are the principal hindrances, the abandoning of the
hindrances is stated by the overcoming of covetousness and grief.

With covetousness are abandoned the satisfaction rooted in bodily
happiness, delight in the body, and the falling into erroneous
opinion which takes as real the unreal beauty, pleasure, permanence
and substantiality of the body. With the overcoming of grief are
abandoned the discontent rooted in bodily misery, the non-delight in
the culture of body-contemplation, and the desire to turn away from
facing the real ugliness, suffering, impermanence and
insubstantiality of the body.

By the instruction dealing with the overcoming of covetousness and
grief, yogic power and yogic skill are shown.

Yogic power is the power of meditation. Yogic skill is dexterity in
yoking oneself in meditation.

Freedom from satisfaction and discontent in regard to bodily
happiness and misery, the forbearing from delighting in the body, the
bearing-up of non-delight in the course of body-contemplation, the
state of being not captivated by the unreal, and the state of not
running away from the real — these, when practiced produce yogic
power; and the ability to practice these is yogic skill.
-------
N: As we discussed meditation has several meanings. Not running away
from the real is to be remembered, I think.
Of course this leaves room too for those who have skills to develop
jhaana. There is a difference to be noted: one has accumulated the
skill for calm which is temporary freedom from the hindrnaces. Or:
one clings to an idea of tranquillity, but does not know that true
calm means freedom from defilements, detachment, not clinging.
But I believe that one should scrutinize one's citta all the time: is
there desire to prepare oneself for satipatthana in order to have a
quicker result? This may be motivated by lobha or by wrong view of
self. One does not accept that there is no self who can bring about
sati.>

Adding Sarah's note on discussions with Kh Sujin:
If there's no understanding of sati and various realities now, what's
the use of
these suttas? Different realities are  appearing now, they cannot be
the same
ones. We need to understand more about dhammas now.
A yogi - anyone who knows how to develop understanding, who's on the
path
I also read out Nina's commentary note about 'yogic power is the
power of
meditation' etc,#89539.
KS stressed in this context the 'patience' aspect of viriya, the long
path.
Patience as the highest austerity. Without patience, no panna.
-------
N: Another interpretation, concerning the moment of mindfulness: not
shunning any object that appears, no attachment to pleasant objects,
nor aversion towards unpleasant objects, they are mere dhammas.

-----------
Nina.




#104830 	From: "charlest" <dhammasaro@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 7:21 am
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	dhammasaro
  	

Good friend Dieter Moeller,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Chuck ...,
>
> you wrote:
>
>... snip
>
> D:  would be nice  to learn your conclusion lateron.. in peace of course  ;-)
>
>
>...  snip

C:  May I retract my offer of a comment?

This obnoxious, obstinate, ole, opinionated, Texican is sure some spurious super
superior vagrants will find fault (i. e.: non-peace) with my honest assessment
and again and again send me condemning e-mail!!!

as ever...

metta (maitri),

Chuck



#104831 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 10:31 am
Subject: Re: Satipatthana was :Notes about the three rounds, no 4. 	moellerdieter
  	

Dear  Nina ,

I admire your energy in prompt  responses  ...  ;-)

you wrote:

N: No com,ment, except: he takes them in absorption inseparately associated.
Strange, since jhaana is not satipa.t.thaana.


D: good point..sounds indeed a bit strange "especially in the absorptions " ..

'Satipat.t.hana: the 4 'foundations of mindfulness',....> These 4
contemplations are in reality not to be taken as merely
> separate exercises, but on the contrary, at least in many cases,> especially
in the absorptions, as things inseparably associated
> with each other. Thereby the Satipat.t.hana Sutta forms an > illustration of
the way in which these 4 contemplations relating to
> the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.) simultaneously come to be >
realized, and finally lead to insight into the impersonality of all
> existence.'

I think , the Venerable wanted to point out the relation with the khandas and
its impossility to separate them ..hence the exercises of the 4 contemplations
still to be seen interrelated .. but why 'especially in the absorptions ' seems
to miss an explanation ..

perhaps he had in mind what  Thanissaro Bhikkhu writes in his introduction to
the Maha Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html   ..excerpt:

'Remaining focused" refers to the element of concentration in the practice, as
the meditator holds to one particular frame of reference amid the conflicting
currents of experience. "Ardent" refers to the effort put into the practice,
trying to abandon unskillful states of mind and develop skillful ones in their
stead, all the while trying to discern the difference between the two. "Alert"
means being clearly aware of what is happening in the present. "Mindful," as
mentioned above, means being able to keep the frame of reference continually in
mind. As these qualities work together, they bring the mind to a solid state of
concentration. Although satipatthana practice is often said to be separate from
the practice of jhana, a number of suttas - such as MN 125 (not in this
collection) and AN 8.63 - equate the successful completion of this first stage
with the attainment of the first level of jhana. This point is confirmed by the
many suttas - MN 118 among them - describing how the practice of satipatthana
brings to completion the factors for Awakening, which coincide with the factors
of jhana.'
snip

'
At first glance, the four frames of reference for satipatthana practice sound
like four different meditation exercises, but MN 118 makes clear that they can
all center on a single practice: keeping the breath in mind. When the mind is
with the breath, all four frames of reference are right there. The difference
lies simply in the subtlety of one's focus. It's like learning to play the
piano. As you get more proficient at playing, you also become sensitive in
listening to ever more subtle levels in the music. This allows you to play even
more skillfully. In the same way, as a meditator gets more skilled in staying
with the breath, the practice of satipatthana gives greater sensitivity in
peeling away ever more subtle layers of participation in the present moment
until nothing is left standing in the way of total release.'

unquote

Furthermore in the Sutta itself  under 4 :mental qualities/mind objects  also
the 4 Noble Truths are mentioned and with it the details of the 8th path factor
of samma samadhi/Jhana  of which the disciple is requested to remain focused on
...
hence we cannot really separate Jhana and Sati (patthana) , likewise 'samatha '
and 'vipassana meditation'  though there is a different application.





N: As to having overcome covetousness and grief in this world, See my message to
you three years ago, Message #71101


D: wow.. an honour to me that you recall a reference quite some time ago   ;-)
I will read it in detail and come back  ..

but let me take up a passage of your mail I stumbled upon :

'Acharn Sujin stressed the importance of the three phases because they make it
apparent that sati-sampaja??a can only arise when there is a firm
foundation knowledge of the objects of satipatth?na and the way of its
development. It reminds us that Acharn Sujin stressed the importance of the
three phases because they make it apparent that sati-sampaja??a can only arise
when there is a firm
foundation knowledge of the objects of satipatth?na and the way of its
development. It reminds us that pa??? is gradually developed from
life to life. The level of intellectual understanding, pariyatti, conditions
awareness and understanding of the characteristics of nama and rupa that
appear now. This is the beginning of patipatti, the level of practice and this
will eventually lead to the realization of the truth, pativedha. Very gradually
n?ma can be known as n?ma and r?pa as r?pa, and stages of insight can arise, but
we do not know when they will arise. It takes many lives, but we should not be
impatient.'

in particular:... pa??? is gradually developed from life to life..snip ..we do
not know when they will arise. It takes many lives, but we should not be
impatient.'

this sounds to me very strange especially when we talk about satipatthana ...
considering the Buddha's conclusive statement :

"Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for
seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here
& now, or - if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance - non-return.
"Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference
in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year...
seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one
month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis
right here & now, or - if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -
non-return.

"Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference
in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either
gnosis right here & now, or - if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -
non-return.

"'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of
sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the
attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding - in other
words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this
was it said."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed
One's words.'

unquote

  with Metta Dieter




#104832 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 11:02 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] "Desire and Delight for Dhamma" Dhammaraga & Dhammanandi 	truth_aerator
  	

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>
>
> Op 31-jan-2010, om 17:20 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:
>
> > That
> > "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental
> > fermentations [alex: Arhatship]. Or, if not, then ? through this
> > very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total
> > wasting away of the first five Fetters1 ? he is due to be reborn
> > [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to
> > return from that world.
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.052.than.html
> >
> > Similar in MN64
> > http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/
> > Majjhima2/064-maha-malunkhyaputta-e1.html
> >
> > Through a certain practice if one doesn't reach Arhatship, then
> > through
> > "Dhammaragena dhammanandiya" one can become an Anagami.
> ---------
> N: I compared  MN 52, Atthakanagara Sutta. Ven. Bodhi's notes from
> the co:
> <Dhammaraagena dhammanandiyaa: These tersm signify desire and
> attachment (chandaraaga) with respect to serinity and insight. If one
> is asble to doscard all desire and attachment concerning serinity and
> insight, one becomes an arahant; if one cannot discard them, one
> becomes a non-returner and is reborn in the Pure Abodes.>
> Thus, it is not through Dhammaraga dhammanandi, rather, he penetrates
> the true characteristic of attachment when it arises. That is the
> only way to eradicate it.
> Also the co to mahaamalunkhyaputtasutta explains that dhamma is here
> samatha and vipassanaa.
>
> --------
> Nina.

Hello Nina and all,

So it is not so bad to be attached to samatha-vipassana until Anagami stage. In
fact certain wise aim is required to do anything, especially in the beginning.


With metta,

Alex


#104833 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 11:29 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] "Desire and Delight for Dhamma" Dhammaraga & Dhammanandi 	nilovg
  	

Dear Alex.
Op 1-feb-2010, om 20:02 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

> So it is not so bad to be attached to samatha-vipassana until
> Anagami stage. In fact certain wise aim is required to do anything,
> especially in the beginning.
------
N: There are conditions for attachment, and for us attachment to all
sense objects. Most important: to realize it as such.
Nina.





#104834 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 11:48 am
Subject: Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka 	moellerdieter
  	

Dear Nina,

you wrote:

'N: No problem with using conventional terms.
You second phrase: yes he should train himself, but this is with right
understanding of naama and ruupa. That conditions most of all
kusala and restraint from akusala. When sati and pa~n~naa of the level of
satipatthaana arises, he is not involved in stories about
that bad man who insulted me. He realizes that hearing is vipaakacitta
condiitoned by kamma, and in this case not by thinking
about it, but by being aware of hearing immediately. and even when aversion
arises, he can be aware of it as a mere dhamma. He will not
take things so personal. It helps even when sati is still very weak. What do you
think? Any questions for Kh Sujin?

D: I think ' right understanding of naama and ruupa' assumes the advanced mind
/understanding
speaking of the training on a lower level the disciple is requested to train
himself in  (the tenfold) wholesome kamma   , knowing that good deeds bring good
fruits and evil... i.e. the morale /sila  sequence  , going on to translate that
in right effort for the mind to take care to avoid, overcome , etc. as ground
for satipatthana and jhana .. (samadhi sequence ) leading to insight (right view
and consequently right thought  as the panna sequence of the training.
  Hence to see its dukkha nature due to arising and ceasing  , the  emptiness of
the phenomena or as you said ' mere dhamma' (anatta) , isn't hearsay/theory 
anymore but based on own experience.
The pure intellectual knowledge may help but can turn to remain  'half baked' ,
when it is assumed, the exercises of samadhi e.g. may be neglected as it would
anyway only confirm /respectively distort  what one already 'knows' .




--------
N: A very good simile . The factors support one another. But see in the same
article about energy:< For wholesome energy to become a
contributor to the path it has to be guided by right view and right intention,
and to work in association with the other path factors.
Otherwise, as the energy in ordinary wholesome states of mind, it merely
engenders an accumulation of merit that ripens within the
round of birth and death; it does not issue in liberation from the  round.>

D:   no doubt the path factors are interrelated .. and there must be a certain
level of right understanding ( and thought ) in order to decide to take up the
path training at all.
However in order that all path factors can support one another , in particular 
that the path unfolds from the first to the eighth factor ,
advancement to the level of the holy Noble Path may be assumed.




N: Not without right understanding of the eightfold Path. If that is lacking we
cannot speak of pathfactors. B.B. translate sammaa-sankappa, right thinking, as
right intention which is not so good.



D:  in training one is on the  way to perfection , needs to work with the
'right' understanding what has been reached so far.
I wonder whether the translation of samma ditthi and samma -sankappa in terms of
right understanding to right view
  and right thought/thinking to right intention may not highlight the development
(?)

I would prefer to postphone  possible  question(s) to Khun Sujin  until  we  can
somehow  conclude   the discussion of our topic ..

with Metta Dieter



#104835 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 12:02 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] "Desire and Delight for Dhamma" Dhammaraga & Dhammanandi 	truth_aerator
  	

Dear Nina, KenO, all,

>Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Alex.
> Op 1-feb-2010, om 20:02 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:
>
> > So it is not so bad to be attached to samatha-vipassana until
> > Anagami stage. In fact certain wise aim is required to do >anything,
> > especially in the beginning.
> ------
>N: There are conditions for attachment, and for us attachment to all
> sense objects. Most important: to realize it as such.
> Nina.

Right. One should develop understanding and awareness to recognize attachment to
anything bad or good, including Dhamma.

Dhamma is like a raft. There is a time for attachment and holding tight to it
(such as when crossing the sea). And there is time when one needs to let it go
(when sea was crossed and one is at the shore). To let go the raft *too early*
is like jumping off the raft in the middle of the sea, or not to cross the sea
at all. So one has to use wisdom and awareness to know when to do what.



With metta,

Alex


#104836 	From: nichicon cp <nichicon@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 12:35 pm
Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (318, 17) 	nichiconn
  	

Dear Friends,
continuing from #104391 Fives (317, 16) (cy: #104535, #104630):


CSCD
318. <<Pa~nca suddhaavaasaa - avihaa, atappaa, sudassaa, sudassii, akani.t.thaa.

Walshe
DN 33.2.1(17) 'Five Pure Abodes (suddhaavaasaa): *1092 Aviha, *1093 Unworried
(Atappaa), Clearly Visible (Sudassaa), Clear-Sighted (Sudassii), Peerless
(Akani.t.thaa).

Olds
[ 5.17 ]  Five pure habitations:[ 5.17 ]
Without-violence, without torment, being pure, among the pure, without
youngsters.

RDs
[ 5.17 ] Five Pure Abodes, to wit, the heavens called Avihaa, Atappaa, Sudassaa,
Sudassii, Akani.t.tha.5.17

*walshe:
1092    Realms inhabited by the Non-Returners, who attain to Nibbaana directly
from there.
1093    The meaning of this name is perhaps 'not falling from prosperity' (see
EB).
**olds:
[ 5.17 ] Pa~nca suddhaavaasaa:
Avihaa, atappaa, sudassaa, sudassii, akani.t.thaa.
Suddha [pp. of sujjhati] 1. clean, pure, Vin I.16; II.152; D I.110. -- 2.
purified, pure of heart M I.39. -- 3. simple, mere, unmixed, nothing but S
I.135. -aavaasa pure abode, name of a heaven and of the devas inhabiting it D
II.50; Vism 392. Five are enumd at D III.237; cp. M III.103. -aavaasakaayika
belonging to the pure abode, epithet of the Suddhaavaasa devas Vin II.302; D
II.253; S I.26. -vasana wearing pure clothes.
AAvaasa [Sk. aavaasa; aa + vas] sojourn, stay, dwelling, living; dwelling-place,
residence Vin I.92; D III.234; S IV.91; A II 68, 168; III.46, 262
Aviha [of uncertain etym.(mo: see next, my guess)] the world of the Aviha's,
i.e. the 12th of the 16 Brahmaa-worlds, cp. Kindred Sayings 48 n. 3; S I.35, 60;
A I.279.
Avihi.msa (Avihesa) (f.) [a + vihi.msaa] absence of cruelty, mercy, humanity,
friendliness, love.
For Atappaa: (A+?) Tappati1 [Sk. tapyate, Pass. of tapati] to burn, to be
tormented: to be consumed (by remorse).
Tappati2 [Sk. tr.pyate, caus. tarpayati; *terp=Gr. te/rpw] (instr.) to be
satiated, to be pleased, to be satisfied.
These are the names of the Five "Lokas" where non-returners alone may be reborn.
Life there is highly conducive to attaining the goal and this end is
accomplished, so I hear, at about half way through the lifespan of these realms.
Non-returners may be reborn in other realms than these, but only non-returners
may be reborn in these realms. It is most likely that these realms form the
basis of the belief in the Pure Abodes of the sect of Chinese Mahayana Buddhists
that call themselves the Pure Land Buddhists. This group, however, believes that
these realms should be the destination of all beings...sort of a staging area
for the universal attainment of Nibbana of all beings that is a main proposition
of this school. This does not fit with the Pali view of the meaning of the
Suddhavasa Realms.
Rhys Davids notes on these names: From DN.II: The Sublime Story, Rhys Davids,
trans: (The Buddha is explaining how he knows of the histories of the previous
Buddhas, and explains that it is the dwellers in the Suddhavassa Realms that
have told this to him upon his visiting each realm in succession thus):
"...Then, brethren, as a strong man stretching his bent arm out, or drawing back
his outstretched arm, so did I vanish from beneath the giant sal tree in the
Delectable Wood at Ukkattha and appear among the gods of the Aviha heaven. . .
Thereafter, brethren, I resorted, not only to the Aviha gods, but also to the
home of the Cool gods; and so, including both the Aviha gods and the Cool gods,
I came to the home of the Fair gods. Then on, including thus the Aviha and Cool
and Fair gods, I came to the home of the Wellseeing gods. And yet on, including
thus Aviha and Cool and Fair and Wellseeing gods, till I came to the home of the
Senior gods. . ." (This seems to indicate that each succeeding realm encompasses
the previous realms. Also, earlier, the Buddha speaks of not having visited
these realms in a long time. So it may be possible for people to visit these
realms without necessarily being reborn there. Or it may just have been the
Buddha who was able to do this.)
***rd:
5.17On the last four names, see (Volume) II, p. 41. B. refers to this. The five
are the topmost Ruupa worlds. Cf. Points, 74, n. 2.


to be continued,
Scott, Nina, connie




#104837 	From: "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 2:33 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	kenhowardau
  	

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
>
. . .

>
> P.S.:  I am wondering that only Alex responded to the recent  remarks about
Acharn Cha and..
---------


Hi Dieter,

If you are still looking for a discussion of Ajahn Cha's teaching I will be
happy to join in.  Rather than single-out individual teachers (and risk causing
offence) we could simply discuss their teachings.

I wonder if you will agree when I say there are basically two versions of the
Dhamma. One is a traditional - or conventional - type of teaching that contains
a list of things to do in order to attain something in the future.  The other is
a strictly "here and now" teaching, in which past and future are completely
irrelevant.

I make no distinction between Ajahn Cha and any other conventional-style
teacher. As far as I am concerned they have all missed the point. And so I
simply look to see which of the two versions of the Dhamma any given teacher is
promoting.

Do you know what I mean by a "here and now teaching?"

I ask that in all sincerity because I genuinely don't know if Ajahn Sujin's
detractors can, or cannot, see what she is talking about.

No doubt there are some people who cannot begin to see how a teaching could be
100% here and now.  But there may be others who can, and who are shocked by what
they see. (Sometimes so deeply shocked that they behave badly and try to disrupt
the forum.) Anatta can have that effect when seen, but not properly understood.

Ken H



#104838 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 3:19 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	truth_aerator
  	

Hello KenH, all,

> "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:
>
>dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@> >wrote:
> >
> . . .
>
> >
> > P.S.:  I am wondering that only Alex responded to the recent  >remarks about
Acharn Cha and..
> ---------
>
>
> Hi Dieter,
>
>If you are still looking for a discussion of Ajahn Cha's teaching I >will be
happy to join in.  Rather than single-out individual >teachers (and risk causing
offence) we could simply discuss their >teachings.
>
>I wonder if you will agree when I say there are basically two >versions of the
Dhamma. One is a traditional - or conventional - >type of teaching that contains
a list of things to do in order to >attain something in the future.

This dhamma is found in the suttas, and VsM. Many Abhidhamma experts such as
Mahasi Sayadaw do teach Vipassana, and they find no contradiction with what they
teach and Tipitaka.


>The other is a strictly "here and now" teaching, in which past and >future are
completely irrelevant.

The same is taught  by most meditation teachers. Please tell me who doesn't
teach this. Ajahn Chah, Buddhadhasa, Ajahn Brahm, and others do teach about here
and now.


> Do you know what I mean by a "here and now teaching?"

Don't crave future results? Anatta? Well, meditation teachers do teach
no-control. So I am not sure what you mean here. There is just dhammas and no
control? Ajahn Brahm teaches  that there isn't any controller, you can't control
meditation, don't look for the future or run into the past, let go, don't do
anything, etc.


With metta,


Alex


#104839 	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu.samahita@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 4:35 pm
Subject: Antivirus software comparison 	bhikkhu.sama...
  	

Keep clean! That?s Safe?

Have a nice & noble day!


Friendship is the Greatest!
  <http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhikkhu_Samahita> Bhikkhu
Samahita _/\_ Sri
<http://what-buddha-said.net/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemI
d=2053>  Lanka *
http://What-Buddha-Said.net <http://what-buddha-said.net/>




#104840 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 7:19 pm
Subject: Morality for insentient elements? 	truth_aerator
  	

Hello KenH, Nina and all,


There are some here who talk about that there is no killer, no one killed, no
weapon of murder, etc. It is just dhammas arising and passing away.

Then why is it one thing to stick a knife into lets say a lifelike doll vs
sticking a knife into alive human?

In both cases we have one insentient rupa coming between other insentient rupas.
No killer, no knife, no one killed.

1) Why does one act is bad kamma and former isn't?


Another example:
Giving a gift for a statue vs giving a gift to a Monk.

2) Why is one act is a good kamma and former isn't?

Also do trainees have perception of "a living being"? If so, what dictates their
moral behavior? Can they feel shame and remorse? If they don't perceive a living
being, than any transgression is like one rupa rubbing against the other rupa.


How can Arahants such as Sariputta feel:

"Venerable sir, just as a woman, man or child fond of adornment, when had bathed
the head, was to be wrapped round the neck with the carcase of a snake dog or a
human would loathe it and be disgusted of it. In the same manner, I abide
disgusted and loathing this putrid body."
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/09-navakanip\
ata/002-sihanadavaggo-p.html

How can an Arahant feel: attiyati, harayati, jigucchati  ?

attiyati = is in trouble; is worried.
harayati = is ashamed, depressed or vexed; worries.
jigucchati= shuns; loathes; is disgusted at.




With metta,


Alex


#104841 	From: "colette" <ksheri3@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 7:16 pm
Subject: Re:strictly techinque 	ksheri3
  	

Hi Dieter,

Thanx. Very Good of you to acknowledge Thanisarro Bhikku, initially, I depend on
his wisdom, his vipissana, and his translation VERY EXTENSIVELY, so, yes, I can
easily read his material. I began to research it the other day but the length of
the sutta put an end to my review.

I deeply enjoy reading these things while I prepare for meditation and bed.
Trying to work with this stuff on a computer screen is very difficult and
counter productive, for me, myself.

Not to try to discount your conversation and the discussion that I was lucky
enough to be included in/as a part of, but I ask to change the subject while I
have your ear: do you know any good informational material/educational material
on the WINDS AND DROPS? I was going to use that terminology today elsewheres
concerning DROPS but hesitated because of my lack of understanding. Off the
record, I was gonna apply a theory that began by using drops, what is a single
drop, etc, how do I define a drop, what happens to a drop that turns into ice
from a low temperature, why is a "cold" drop different from a warm drop, etc.
Basically, I still have to deal with this blasted ICONOGRAPHY and how people
depend on an image or are dependent upon an image for their reality.

Any help in that will be appreciated. I will still pursue what we were
originally discussing.

THANK YOU.

toodles,
colette

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Colette,
>
>
> you wrote :
>
> (D:  compare with the beginning of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta  and then sati
is only the first of the 7 wings ..but I think you know that ..)
> >
>
> colette: this is strictly technique and mainly my lack of understand of Pali
and ....
>
>
> D:  I do not know how familar you are with the Suttas..
> In case you have time you may read the introductions to both for example By
Thanissaro Bhikkhu ..(?)
> I think  it is not very difficult even with a lack of Pali ..
>
>
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html
>
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/index.html
>
> with Metta Dieter
>
>


#104842 	From: "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 8:50 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	kenhowardau
  	

Hi Alex (and Dieter),

-------
<. . .>
KH: > >I wonder if you will agree when I say there are basically two >versions
of the Dhamma. One is a traditional - or conventional - >type of teaching that
contains a list of things to do in order to >attain something in the future.
>

A: > This dhamma is found in the suttas, and VsM. Many Abhidhamma experts such
as Mahasi Sayadaw do teach Vipassana, and they find no contradiction with what
they teach and Tipitaka.
--------

Thanks for joining in. You have reminded me of a previous post of yours, which I
think hasn't received a reply yet. You wrote:

Here is an interesting way to end a Book of talks by Ven. Ajahn Chah

===
…Do you know where it will end? Or will you just keep on learning like
this…? Or is there an end to it…? That’s okay but it’s the external
study, not the internal study. For the internal study you have to study these
eyes, these ears, this nose, this tongue, this body and this mind.
-----------------

KH: I notice A. Chah uses the words "these eyes" - plural-  and "this nose" -
singular.  What can we infer from that? I think we can infer that he is talking
about conventionally known eyes and nose, don't you? If he was talking about
conditioned dhammas (cakkhu-ayatanna for example) wouldn't he have used the
singular "the eye"?

-------------------------
"This is the real study. The study of books is just the external study, it’s
really hard to get it finished.
--------------------------

What does he mean? Does he himself know what he means, or is he just using
clever sounding words to give the impression of a meaning? How does a person
study his eyes, or his ears? If I were you, Alex, I would insist on more
information.

-------------------------------------
"When the eye sees form what sort of things happens? When ear, nose, and tongue
experience sounds, smells and tastes, what takes place? When the body and mind
come into contact with touches and mental states, what reactions take place? Are
there still greed, aversion and delusion there? Do we get lost in forms, sounds,
smells, tastes, textures and moods? This is the internal study. It has a point
of completion. If we study but don’t practice we won’t get any results.
---------------------------

To be fair to A Chah, this is the *conclusion* to his book of talks and, no
doubt, he has already given more information. But is he talking about
conditioned dhammas, or is he talking about conventional things?  Where does he
make that clear? Where does he explain the difference between the two?

---------------------------------------
"It’s like a person who raises cows. In the morning he takes the cow out to
eat grass, in the evening he brings it back to its pen ?" but he never drinks
the cow’s milk. Study is alright, but don’t let it be like this. You should
raise the cow and drink it’s milk too. You must study and practice as well to
get the best results.
---------------------------------------

How sad it is to see! A famous Buddhist teacher apparently thinks that study and
practice are ultimately different in some way.

Ultimately, there are only conditioned dhammas. Regardless of whatever you might
be doing - whether walking, or reading a book, or sitting on the toilet - there
are ultimately only conditioned dhammas.

The practice taught by the Buddha is panna. It is  right understanding of a
conditioned dhamma that has become the object of consciousness now, in the
present moment.

---------------------------------
"Here, I’ll explain it further. It’s like a person who raises chickens, but
he doesn’t get the eggs. All he gets is the chicken dung!
---------------------------------

Hmm, how does that explain any further than the example of the cows?

---------------------------------------
"This is what I tell people who raise chickens back home! Watch out you don’t
become like that! This means we study the scriptures but we don’t know how to
let go of defilements, we don’t know how to “push” greed, aversion and
delusion from our mind. Study without practice, without this “giving up,”
brings no
results. This is why I compare it to someone who raises chickens but doesn’t
collect the eggs, he just collects the dung. It’s the same thing. Because of
this, the Buddha wanted us to study the scriptures, and then to give up evil
actions through body, speech and mind; to develop goodness in our deeds, speech
and thoughts.
The real worth of mankind will come to fruition through our deeds, speech and
thoughts. But if we only talk well, without acting accordingly, it’s not yet
complete.
------------------------------------------

Hallelujah! But how is that different from a sermon you might hear in any
Christian church on a Sunday morning - where no one has ever heard of
conditioned dhammas!

----------------------
"Or if we do good deeds but the mind is still not good, this is still not
complete. The Buddha taught to develop fine deeds, fine speech and fine
thoughts. This is the treasure of mankind. The study and the practice must both
be good.
----------------------

Since when has it been possible to do good deeds (cetana) without good mind
(citta)? According to the Buddha, the two are inseparable; kusala cetana is
always with kusala citta, never akusala citta.

-----------------------------------
"The Eightfold Path of the Buddha, the path of practice, has eight factors.
These eight factors are nothing other than this very body: two eyes, two ears,
two nostrils, one tongue and one body. This is the path.
-----------------------------------

Wow! I don't mind if  someone wants to put an original spin on the eightfold
path in order to get a point across . . . but is A Chah serious?

No, I am being paranoid; A C can't be serious, he is just making a point. But
the fact remains; he has not said anything about the actual eight-factored path
(the actual Dhamma - the teaching of conditionality - namas and rupas). When
does he get around to that?

---------------------------------
"And the mind is the one who follows the path. Therefore both the study and the
practice exist in our body, speech and mind.
Have you ever seen scriptures which teach about anything other than the body,
the speech and the mind? The scriptures only teach about this; nothing else.
Defilements are born here. If you know them they die right here. So you should
understand that the practice and the study both exist right here. If we study
just this much we can know everything. It’s like our speech: to speak one word
of Truth is better than a lifetime of wrong speech. Do you understand?

One who studies and doesn’t practice is like a ladle of soup pot. It’s in
the pot every day but it doesn’t know the flavor of the soup. If you don’t
practice, even if you study till the day you die, you won’t know the taste of
Freedom!

Taste of Freedom PDF and from the "Food for the Heart Book"
-------------------------------

You posted this document, Alex, and yet I am the only one who has said anything
about it. You did say "Here is an interesting way to end a Book of talks by Ven.
Ajahn Chah," but you haven't said how it interests you. What does it tell you
that you didn't already know?

Ken H


#104843 	From: "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 9:37 pm
Subject: Re: Morality for insentient elements? 	kenhowardau
  	

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello KenH, Nina and all,
>
>
> There are some here who talk about that there is no killer, no one killed, no
weapon of murder, etc. It is just dhammas arising and passing away.
>
> Then why is it one thing to stick a knife into lets say a lifelike doll vs
sticking a knife into alive human?
>
---------------

Hi Alex,

You have asked this question a thousand times at DSG and it has always been
answered by someone. I'll skip it this time.

Recently I mentioned that you could have "endless fun" mixing talk of ultimate
reality (in which there are only dhammas) with talk of conventional reality (in
which there murderers and guns etc) making fun of Dhamma students in the
process. I asked if *you* weren't really the one being silly.

You responded to every part of my message except that, which you deleted. Why?

--------------------
<. . .>
A: > How can Arahants such as Sariputta feel:

"Venerable sir, just as a woman, man or child fond of adornment, when had bathed
the head, was to be wrapped round the neck with the carcase of a snake dog or a
human would loathe it and be disgusted of it. In the same manner, I abide
disgusted and loathing this putrid body."
--------------------

What's your answer, Alex? Do arahants have dosa and domanassa? Do they feel
loathing and disgust in the way that an ordinary person does? Or is the sutta
actually telling us arahants have right understanding of rupa (seeing it as
anicca, dukkha and anatta)?

Ken H


#104844 	From: "charlest" <dhammasaro@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 10:04 pm
Subject: Re:strictly techinque 	dhammasaro
  	

Good friend Dieter Moeller,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Colette,
>
>
> you wrote :
>
> (D:  compare with the beginning of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta  and then sati
is only the first of the 7 wings ..but I think you know that ..)
> >
>
> colette: this is strictly technique and mainly my lack of understand of Pali
and ....
>
>
> D:  I do not know how familar you are with the Suttas..
> In case you have time you may read the introductions to both for example By
Thanissaro Bhikkhu ..(?)
> I think  it is not very difficult even with a lack of Pali ..
>
>
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html
>
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/index.html
>
> with Metta Dieter
>
>


C:  Please forgive my injection into your conversation with good friend Colette.

Very warm thanks for mentioning Ajahn Thanissaro.

One may accuse me of being a fan of Ajahn Thanissaro, as well.

Over some 15 years I studied his on-line Sutta translations and his Vinaya
translation.

In addition, I have a well dog-eared hard copy of his Vinaya translation of the
227 rules for monks, "The Buddhist Monastic Code."

peace...

metta (maitri),

Chuck


#104845 	From: Vince <cerovzt@...>
Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 11:40 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas 	cerovzt@...
  	

Dear Nina

you  wrote:

>> V: As still I don't know enough  Abhidhamma and also according Sujin,
>> I dont' have clear if panna arising in vipassana it's a more
>> comfortable (or perhaps frequent) situation in the practice than
>> arising in samatha.
>> It's so?
> ---------
> N: We cannot compare the pa~n~naa of the level of samatha and the
> pa~n~naa of vipassanaa. In samatha defilements are temporarily
> subdued and the development of vipassanaa leads to the eradication of
> defilements. More frequent, more comfortable? We cannot tell. Someone
> may have a lort of discomfort, pain, sickness, even near death, but
> he may still be able to develop awareness of naama and ruupa.

I have been thinking in this, and in a practical way, I understand
vipassana leading to the eradication of defilements. But I'm not sure
how samatha subdues them.

Please, Can you put some example of daily life?. It would be of help.


best wishes,


Vince.


#104847 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 1:57 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas 	nilovg
  	

Dear Vince,
Op 2-feb-2010, om 8:40 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven:

> I have been thinking in this, and in a practical way, I understand
> vipassana leading to the eradication of defilements. But I'm not sure
> how samatha subdues them.
>
> Please, Can you put some example of daily life?. It would be of help.
-------
N: Samatha subdues the hindrances in contemplating one of the
meditation subjects of samatha, but through samatha akusala is not
eradicated.
These meditation subjects are described in the Visuddhimagga and also
in Kh Sujin's Survey, p. 293.
There may be conditions to be concentrated with kusala citta for a
long time on a subject such as a corpse, or a kasina, and even attain
jhaana with this subject. At those moments there are no conditions
for akusala dhammas. However, when one emerges from jhaana akusala
citta is bound to arise again.
Jhaana is not developed in daily life and only when one has become
very skilful jhaanacittas can arise in daily life.

______
Nina.



#104848 	From: "charlest" <dhammasaro@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 1:57 am
Subject: Ajahn Jumnien, was: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship 	dhammasaro
  	

Good friends all,

>>... snip

C:  It seems one can not edit a message...

Below is what I sent with omission added as noted!!!
...........................................................

Ajahn Jumnien; was, Insight Steps to bare Arhatship

Good friend pt, et al

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" <dhammasaro@...> wrote:
>
> Good friend pt, et al
>
>... snip
> >
> > > C: On ajahn Jumnien, I think I visited his monastery a year or two before
the tsunami...
> >
>






C: Found this Dhamma talk by Ajahn Jumnien. It is translated into English by a
former English monk under Ajahn Chah.

Perhaps, you will find it useful...

peace...

metta (maitri),

Chuck

[Edit:  Add web site... 
http://88000.multiply.com/music/item/149/Ajahn_Jumnien_1_song

One may need to join to hear the audio...

One may un-join after hearing the audio...

One may remain a member and become active as one wishes...

[End sidebar]






>
>
> C: Well, I did miss many... Ajahn Chah for one... Ajahn Buddhadasa for
another... but, I study their Dhamma talks...
>
> I will keep my "ears open" for any discussion on Thai monks following the
Mahayana Tradition on the Bodhisattva.
>
> Please keep in touch, so to write... [beeg Texican smiles]
>
> peace...
>
> metta (maitri),
>
> Chuck
>
> Post script: This is where I met Ajahn Plien:
>
>
http://kasteelzeist.multiply.com/photos/album/57/Wat_Phare_Mahajedee_Rachsamjamm\
\
adhevesrivechai
>


#104849 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 2:08 am
Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (318, 17) and commentary. 	nilovg
  	

Dear friends,


   Sangiiti Sutta Fives (318, 17)

Walshe

DN 33.2.1(17) 'Five Pure Abodes (suddhaavaasaa):  Aviha,  Unworried
(Atappaa), Clearly Visible (Sudassaa), Clear-Sighted (Sudassii),
Peerless (Akani.t.thaa).

(318. <<Pa~nca suddhaavaasaa - avihaa, atappaa, sudassaa, sudassii,
akani.t.thaa.>>

--------

N: There are five abodes belonging to the ruupa loka, the fine-
material worlds,  and these are: of the Aviha-gods, of the heaven of
the unworried (Atappa) gods, of  the heaven of the clearly-visible
(Sudassa) gods, of the heaven of the clear-visioned (Sudassi-) gods,
of the heaven of the highest (akanit.t.ha) gods.

Non-returners may be reborn in other realms than these, but only non-
returners may be reborn in these realms.

-------

Suddha means pure. The co adds to suddha, pure: without the stains of
defilements, the aasavas, cankers or intoxicants, that have been
eradicated by the anaagaami.

N: These are: the canker of sensuous desire, the canker of becoming
(desire for rebirth), the canker of wrong view and the canker of
ignorance. The anaagaami is free from the canker of sensuous desire
and the the canker of wrong view. Only the arahat has eradicated the
cankers of becoming and ignorance.

------

The co states: without the stains of defilements, and the subco
elaborates: purification of the mental body (naamkaaya, cetasikas)
and also purification of the physical body (ruupakaaya).

N: He is a brahma of the fine-material world, his body is more
refined than the body of those dwelling in the sensuous sphere.

N: We would like to be without anger, aversion, sadness. However,
this sutta reminds us that aversion is only eradicated at the third
stage of enlightenment. Dosa is conditioned by clinging to sense
objects and such clinging is eradicated by the anaagaami. First the
wrong view of self has to be eradicated and this is achieved at the
first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the streamwinner,
sotaapanna. Right understanding is to be developed of all realities
appearing through the six doorways. When akusala such as dosa
appears, it can be known as only a conditioned naama, non-self. So
long as it is taken as my aversion it cannot be eradicated.

-------------

   Pali co: 318.Suddhaavaasaati suddhaa idha aavasi.msu aavasanti
aavasissanti vaati suddhaavaasaa. Suddhaati kilesamalarahitaa
anaagaamikhii.naasavaa. Avihaatiaadiisu ya.m vattabba.m, ta.m
mahaapadaane vuttameva.

   *****
Nina.



#104850 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 2:13 am
Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 12. 	nilovg
  	

Dear friends,

The development of understanding from the beginning phase to full
understanding is an infinitely long process. That is the reason why
many different conditioning factors are needed to reach the goal. The
study of the teachings, pondering over them, understanding of the way
of development of the eightfold Path are conditions for mindfulness
and direct understanding of realities. However, apart from these
conditions there are others which are essential. Ignorance, clinging
and the other defilements are deeply rooted and hard to eradicate.
Therefore, in order to reach the goal, the eradication of
defilements, all kinds of kusala have to be accumulated together with
the development of right understanding. The Buddha developed during
innumerable lives, even when he was an animal, all kinds of excellent
qualities, the ?Perfections?. These were the necessary conditions for
the attainment of Buddhahood. Also his disciples had developed the
Perfections life after life before they could attain enlightenment.
Since the accumulation of the Perfections is essential in order to be
able to develop the eightfold Path I would like to explain what these
Perfections are.
The ten Perfections are the following:

liberality
good moral conduct
renunciation
wisdom
energy
patience
truthfulness
determination
loving-kindness
equanimity

The Buddha, when he was still a Bodhisatta, developed all these
Perfections to the highest degree. For those who see as their goal
the eradication of defilements, all these Perfections are necessary
conditions for the attainment of this goal, none of them should be
neglected.

********
Nina.





#104851 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 2:46 am
Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 2 No 6 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear all

Question: Thus satipa??h?na can know the reality which
is thinking, but it cannot know concepts. As far as I
understand, each of the sense-door processes has to be
followed by a mind-door process, it cannot be otherwise.
When there is seeing there is an eye-door process, and
after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between there is
a mind-door process of cittas which experience visible
object. Is that right?
?
?
S. The v?thi-cittas of the mind-door process which follow
v?thi-cittas of a sense-door process, have to experience
the same r?pa. If the javana-cittas of the sense-door
process are lobha-m?la-cittas(cittas rooted in attachment),
the javana-cittas of the first mind-door process
after that sense-door process have to be the same types
of lobha-m?la-citta. The mind-door process follows
extremely rapidly upon the sense-door process. With
respect to this there is a simile of a bird which perches on
a branch. As soon as the bird perches on the branch its
shadow appears on the ground. Evenso, when the object
has been experienced through the sense-door and there
have been many bhavanga-cittas in between, arising and
falling away very rapidly, it is immediately afterwards
experienced through the mind-door. Since cittas succeed
one another so rapidly one does not know that visible
object which is experienced through the eyes is only a
paramattha dhamma that can appear because it has
impinged on the eyesense.
?
to be continued
?
Ken O




#104852 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 2:47 am
Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 15 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear all

Q. : What is the meaning of studying characteristics?


?
S. : When sati is aware and someone considers the characteristic of whatever
appears, that reality can be known as n?ma, which experiences something, or as
r?pa which does not experience anything. Then one studies the characteristic of
non-self of that reality. It is n?ma or r?pa, non-self. This kind of study is
different from thinking about terms or naming realities. When pa??? is developed
to the degree that it is more accomplished, it can penetrate the three general
characteristics of n?ma and r?pa: impermanence, dukkha and anatt?.
?

Q. : When my eyes are open I am seeing, but I do not pay attention to anything
else. How can there be sati?


?
S. : We cannot prevent the arising and falling away of cittas which succeed one
another, that is their nature. When sati arises it can be aware of whatever
reality appears naturally, just as it is.


?
Q. : For most people the aim of the development of satipa??h?na is to become
free from dukkha. When pa??? has arisen one will be free from dukkha.


?
S. : Freedom from dukkha cannot be realized easily. Pa??? should first be
developed stage by stage, so that ignorance, doubt and wrong view which takes
realities for self can be eliminated. If people develop sati and pa???
naturally, they will know that pa??? grows very gradually, because ignorance
arises many more times a day than kusala. This was so in past lives and it is
also like this in the present life.


?
to be continued
?
Ken O




#104853 	From: "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 2:51 am
Subject: Re: The Natural Way of Development 	jonoabb
  	

Hi Alex

(104772)
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
wrote:
> ...
> Then please explain how accumulation of Kusala happens without to resorting to
the answer of "prior kusala".  That would be infinite regression and akin to
saying that "a child always could ride a bike, that is why he can ride the bike
now".
> ===============

The 'infinite regression' point is just another way of stating the 'no first
cause' point which, as you know, is one of the 'imponderables' spoken of by the
Buddha as 'not to be pursued'.  So don't expect me to have an answer! ;-))

> ===============
> Like I've said. At least *some* sponteneous mental responses (such as kusala
or akusala) were consciously developed at some point in the past. The unthinking
and spontaneous ability to ride a bike, at some point was not originally an
unconscious action! At first a child had to learn, through trial and error,
through learning devices and help from others, how to ride a bike.
> ===============

Mental qualities are not developed by a 'trial and error' approach.  They are
accumulated by virtue of simply arising.  In the case of kusala qualities, they
are developed by virtue of the panna that understands the nature and benefit of
kusala.

> ===============
> Another thing: If the child refuses to practice riding a a bike (until he is
perfect and has accumulations for it), then he will NEVER ride it!
> ===============

True for riding a bike.  But not applicable to the present discussion, because
there are for all of us accumulated tendencies for the different kinds of
kusala.  It is not a case of starting from scratch.

> ===============
> Similar is with samatha. If you never practice it, it will never be good! The
people who are succesful with samatha are those who have practiced it and all
the relevant things. At one point they themselves were terrible at it. So what?
They didn't give up. They didn't refuse to try (and perhaps get hurt 'knocking
against walls' in the process).  "No pain, no gain" as a saying goes.
> ===============

The development of samatha requires the arising of panna.  The conditions for
panna to arise do not include following a specific method of concentrating on an
object.  Such concentration does not require panna; anyone can do it.

> ===============
> Natural response, at some point WAS unnatural. Considering that we have done
akusala for AEONS, that would make akusala natural - while kusala *unnatural*.
> ===============

I do not agree with your premise/assumptions here.  I think that both kusala and
akusala have been performed for aeons.

> ===============
> >I'm sure you'd have had the experience of finding yourself >reflecting (in a
kusala way) on dhamma matters without having first >made a conscious decision to
do so.
>
> I have been aware of sponteneously doing the above. However those are
*results* of deliberate development.
> ===============

Well that's how you see it.  But there's no way of objectively confirming that
today's spontaneously arising kusala is the result of conscious decisions to
perform kusala in the past.

Jon



#104854 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 3:43 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear Dieter

>
>D: one even doesn't have to be a disciple of the Buddha Dhamma..

KO:  Most of us are not disciples of Buddha dhamma when we first learn it.  
Thereafter, we keep considering dhamma.  No one force it nor does you force
yourself to know it.  This striving of considering dhamma is natural.   This
learning is condition by panna, is condition by chanda to be free from
suffering.


>D: KO ..there is no if , but there is ' For a long time this has been relished,
appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This
is me, this is my self, this is what I am.'
>The denial of the intellect - there is no I /Self must be met by the heart ,
which needs to get disentchanted in order to grow dispassionate, otherwise it is
only a supression ( some friends of neuro science may refer to the dominant left
sphere of the brain)
>
KO: yes this grasping is miccha ditthi.  It does not arise with kusala.  When
you donate money to a charity organisation, there is alobha and adosa, there is
no selfishness or concept of I.  If there is an I in the donation, one will not
donate it because one will think this  is mine, which is miccha ditthi.  There
is no denial of intellect, Buddha already said it all dhammas are not self.  So
this uninstructed run of the mill blinded by avijja and attached to miccha
ditthi, thinks there is an I, my or mine.

IMHO, what you are saying is deterministic, that all starts from I, then there
is no salvation because panna is not self.  So the context of the sutta must be
understood and not understand it literally.  Understand dhamma in the suttas
and not the literal writings.


>D: let 's say all accumulates to panna as the counterpart to avijja /ignorance
, still the development of panna needs sila and samadhi as supporting condition
...and then panna is only a mean for liberation .
>Perhaps I am wrong but you seem to put the cart before the horse..

KO:  the cart is panna, there is eradication of kilesa without panna.  There
is no perfectin of sila and samadhi without panna. One can be mother Teresa
full of loving kindness but that only condition good rebirth and not eradication
of akusala.  One could attain the highhest samadhi in the arupa jhana,  Buddha
still said they are subject to suffering.


>D: well, whatever the Buddha taught is in his own words : this is suffering,
this is the origin.., this the ending... and this the way towards ending...,
i.e. the 4 Noble Truths . (about Satipatthana I just posted a mail to Nina ..we
could take the issue up from there lateron)

KO:  The 1st and 2nd truth is meaning and cause, 3rd is Nibbana and 4th is the
way to reach the 3rd.  The 4th is 8 NT and it is satipatthana.  could you
point to me why the 8NT is not satipatthana, even D.O is for the understanding
of satipatthana. 


>It is useful to read N.' s defintion of Panna:
>
>pañña-: 'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a very wide
field. The specific Buddhist knowledge or wisdom, however, as part of the Noble
Eightfold Path (magga, q.v.) to deliverance, is insight (vipassana-, q.v.), i.e.
that intuitive knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and the
realization of Nibba-na (s. ariyapuggala) , and which consists in the
penetration of the impermanency (anicca, q.v.), misery (dukkha, s. sacca) and
impersonality (anatta-) of all forms of existence. Further details, s. under
tilakkhan.a.
>
>With regard to the condition of its arising one distinguishes 3 kinds of
knowledge knowledge based on thinking (cinta--maya--pañña-), knowledge based
on learning (suta-maya--pañña-), knowledge based on mental development
(bha-vana--maya--pañña-) (D. 33).
>
>" 'Based on thinking' is that knowledge which one has accquired through one's
own thinking, without having learnt it from others. 'Based on learning' is that
knowledge which one has heard from others and thus acquired through learning.
'Based on mental development' is that knowledge which one has acquired through
mental development in this or that way, and which has reached the stage of full
concentration" (appana-, q.v.) (Vis.M. XIV).
>
>Wisdom is one of the 5 mental faculties (s. bala), one of the 3 kinds of
training (sikkha-, q.v.), and one of the perfections (s. pa-rami-) For further
details, s. vipassana-, and the detailed exposition in Vis.M. XIV, 1-32.

KO:  without panna there is no enlightment.  If sila and samadhi can lead to
enlightment, many ascetics could have become enlighted and there is no need for
the arisen of Buddha and Silent Buddhas.  Buddha need panna to be enlighted and
not other paramis because with the arisen of panna, there is perfection of the
paramis.    When we have panna, we also have alobha and adosa. 


Cheers
Ken O




#104855 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 4:30 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] "Desire and Delight for Dhamma" Dhammaraga & Dhammanandi 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear Alex


>Dhamma is like a raft. There is a time for attachment and holding tight to it
(such as when crossing the sea). And there is time when one needs to let it go
(when sea was crossed and one is at the shore). To let go the raft *too early*
is like jumping off the raft in the middle of the sea, or not to cross the sea
at all. So one has to use wisdom and awareness to know when to do what.
>

KO: any attachment is akusla.? No panna will arise with attachment.? One will
not be enlighted if there is attachment


Cheers
Ken O




#104856 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 4:24 am
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [dsg] terms and realities. 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear Vince


>I understand also there is a need of continuation, but, How can we
>know there is a bhavanga citta, except by inference?

KO: It could be known but that is only possible with panna.? It is shown by
Buddha that there is bhavanga cittas so it could be directly now.? It is just
that we are still not there yet.


>Why you prefer that?. I have read in some places that sakkaya-ditthi
>is the first wrong view, and also origin of the rest.
>On these commentaries, it seems the wrong view of identification must
>be previous to the wrong view of impermanence.
>Well, I'm not sure about this needed order, just I comment you that.

KO:? Sakkayditthi is part of miccha ditthi.? Sakkayaditthi is a doctrine of
self.? It?is said first because of its prominence of our clinging to a self
where we keep viewing there is self in our body, feelings, perceptions, mental
factors and cittas.? Wrong wiew of impermenance is wrong view and not
sakkayaditthi.?


>but temperature is one of the four elements (Hot element,
>tejo-dhaatu) . It lacks of any substance and also it is conditioned.
>
>We can say rupa arises because conditions but I understand one should
>be aware that any condition cannot exists without consciousness.

>A condition is not rupa but a relation (understanding) established
>by what is knowing here and now. It means that if there is not
>consciousness there is not nama and rupa. And also, if there is not
>nama and rupa there is not consciousness.

KO:?it is easy to fall into this view because all of what we know arise from our
senses.? This resulted a tendency to think in that way.? But according to the
texts, there are external objects, external rupas which are conditioned by
temperature.

We cannot said that it is just because it is conditioned,?it cannot condition
dhammas, then avijja which is conditioned, could not condition our rebirths.?
Since temperature is an element, it is able to condition other elements.


>
>but, Don't you agree that also nama and rupa condition citta?
>
>On the contrary, It doesn't mean that there is a primordial citta?

KO:? There is no primordial cittas.? Yes?nama and rupa does condition citta and
citta does condition nama and rupa.?? So D.O is not just linear forward, it
could be explain backwards also


Cheers
Ken O




#104857 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 4:47 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana was :Notes about the three rounds, no 4. 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear Deiter

>D: good point..sounds indeed a bit strange "especially in the absorptions " ..

KO:? Absorptions are not possible without panna.? One requires panna to be
withdrawn from sensual desire.?

>
>perhaps he had in mind what Thanissaro Bhikkhu writes in his introduction to
the Maha Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22)
>http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ dn/dn.22. 0.than.html ..excerpt:
>
>'Remaining focused" refers to the element of concentration in the practice, as
the meditator holds to one particular frame of reference amid the conflicting
currents of experience. "Ardent" refers to the effort put into the practice,
trying to abandon unskillful states of mind and develop skillful ones in their
stead, all the while trying to discern the difference between the two. "Alert"
means being clearly aware of what is happening in the present. "Mindful," as
mentioned above, means being able to keep the frame of reference continually in
mind. As these qualities work together, they bring the mind to a solid state of
concentration. Although satipatthana practice is often said to be separate from
the practice of jhana, a number of suttas - such as MN 125 (not in this
collection) and AN 8.63 - equate the successful completion of this first stage
with the attainment of the first level of jhana. This point is confirmed by the
many suttas - MN 118 among
  them - describing how the practice of satipatthana brings to completion the
factors for Awakening, which coincide with the factors of jhana.'
>snip

KO:? Without panna, there is no abondment of unskillful states of mind.? ?If
jhanas is the practise of satipatthana, then those born in Brahmas would have
been enlighted without help of Buddha.


>this sounds to me very strange especially when we talk about satipatthana ...
considering the Buddha's conclusive statement :
>
>"Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for
seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here
& now, or - if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance - non-return.
>"Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference
in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year...
seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one
month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis
right here & now, or - if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -
non-return.
>
>"Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference
in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either
gnosis right here & now, or - if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -
non-return.
>
>"'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of
sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the
attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding - in other
words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this
was it said."
>
>That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the
Blessed One's words.'

KO:? It is not strange, it is the context being said.? Buddha, chief
disciples?takes many aeons to accomplish their panna.?


Cheers
Ken O




#104858 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 6:18 am
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	moellerdieter
  	

Hi Chuck,

you wrote:

'May I retract my offer of a comment?

This obnoxious, obstinate, ole, opinionated, Texican is sure some spurious super
superior vagrants will find fault (i. e.: non-peace) with my honest assessment
and again and again send me condemning e-mail!!!'

D: who says that this ...Texican cannot deliver his honest  assesment in a
karmic wholesome way  ("He avoids harsh language and abstains from it. He speaks
such words as are gentle, soothing to the ear, loving, such words as go to the
heart, and are courteous, friendly, and agreeable to many.")

;-))


with Metta Dieter






#104859 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 6:37 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] study, practice, & restaraunt menu simile 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear Alex

I am not concern about pariyatti and patipada.?? Study condition panna to arise,
and?understanding of reality is practise.??

>?After all, one cannot satisfy the hunger by reading the menu (rather than
eating it)! Neither can one understand how the actual ingredients taste like,
until one actually eats the meal. Books may say that "such and such quality
feels like this and like that", but can we really understand that through
reading? If a person has never tasted some exotic meal, can s/he know how it
really tastes like from other people's descriptions? It seems to me that suttas
and Abhidhamma are signposts.
>Ultimately private experience contains much more nuances than what is actually
written. The defilements (and so on) and so on are far more varied, ingenious,
and subtle than what can be written as "one fits all".

KO:? Some people do study suttas but does not understand the meaning of it.?
When we said study, it not just reading the food of a menu, it is about
understanding what is in food is make of, what kind of ingredients and what kind
of sauce, the fire?etc.?? We understand like a cook and not like a customer.?

There is no need for making act to arise or?in your case tasting an exotic
food.? Because?our food is mental, it is always there.? Seeing is always there,
one could see it, that is food for satipatthana.?hearing etc are all food.?? It
is not one fits all, it is about panna.? Without panna there is no eradication
of defilements.



>Another thing. Suppose a highly esteemed and wise doctor has prescribed a
working medicine for a gravely sick patient. If the patient worships the doctor,
studies the pamphlet that comes with the medicine, enrolls into University
courses studying medicine, bio-chemistry, biology, etc - but does NOT follow the
instructions which say to "swollow the tablet with every meal". What will
happen? He will die, maybe even before graduating from Medical School.
>Really, how much does the patient needs to know to get cured? In this case he
doesn't, just take the pill and follow instructions!
>
>Similar with the wise and compassion Doctor, the Buddha. His teaching is NOT to
earn a PhD. His teaching is a medicine to cure the "sickness".

KO:? You are just saying what I have been trying to tell you.? What is the
medicine that eradicates aksuala?? It must be panna.? It must be satipatthana.?
It must be understanding of reality as not self.??.? With the arisen of panna,
the rest like samadhi and sila would be samma due to root conditions, and it is
a strong paccaya because it is the three roots and not two or one.? That is why,
we will keep learning dhamma when condition arise, because of its strong paccaya
be it this life or future lives.



Cheers
Ken O


#104860 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 7:03 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Morality for insentient elements? 	nilovg
  	

Dear Alex,
Op 2-feb-2010, om 4:19 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

> Giving a gift for a statue vs giving a gift to a Monk.
>
> 2) Why is one act is a good kamma and former isn't?
-------
N: We do not know whether the former is not, it all depends on the
citta; is it citta with generosity or akusala citta with lobha? A
statue can remind one of the Buddha's excellent qualities and one may
show respect in different ways, even by putting flowers near the statue.
-------
>
> A: Also do trainees have perception of "a living being"? If so,
> what dictates their moral behavior? Can they feel shame and
> remorse? If they don't perceive a living being, than any
> transgression is like one rupa rubbing against the other rupa.
-----
N: Someone realizes that there are no persons, but only citta,
cetasika and ruupa. A living being: a being with life faculty, and
there is ruupa jiivitindriya and naama jiivitindriya (cetasika). When
one causes painful feeling in another being, there is lack of metta
and karu.naa.
There is citta, cetasika and ruupa of this or that individual. They
are different for different beings, by conditions. In order to
explain paramattha dhammas we can say: of this being, of that being.
But at the same time one knows that there is not a permanent being
that exists.
Your questions have been asked before, but I know that it is
difficult to understand what paramattha dhammas are. There may be
doubts about how to behave in social life. But there are no
contradictions.

-------
Nina.





#104861 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 7:19 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] terms and realities. 	nilovg
  	

Dear Vince,
Op 28-jan-2010, om 23:35 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven:

> But I wonder many times our needed efforts to get
> right understanding are not other thing than the establishment in
> oneself of the support conditions for the progress:
-------
N: You then refer to the Upanisa sutta, and we read:
What is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality?
'Consciousness' should be the reply.

"What is the supporting condition for consciousness? 'Kamma
formations' should be the reply.

"Kamma formations, monks, also have a supporting condition, I say,
they do not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting
condition for kamma formations? 'Ignorance' should be the reply.
---------
N: You come back to this all the time. But here it is clearly
explained that kamma conditions consciousness, namely consciousness
that is vipaakacitta, not any citta, not every citta. Rebirth-
consciousness is vipaakacitta and since it is conditioned by kamma at
the same time as bodily ruupas, and it is accompanied by cetasikas,
in that sense citta conditions naama/ruupa, that is, by way of
conascence. They arise together at the same time, and in that sense,
by being conascent they condition one another. This is a special case.
As Ken O explained, not every ruupa is conditioned by citta. Ruupa
can also be conditioned by temperature. Ruupas outside are only
conditioned by temperature. Ruupas of the body can be conditioned by
kamma, or by citta, or by temperature or by nutrition.
All this deserves a detailed study.

Nina.



#104862 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 7:39 am
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	moellerdieter
  	

Hi Ken H,

you wrote:

If you are still looking for a discussion of Ajahn Cha's teaching I will be
happy to join in. Rather than single-out individual teachers (and risk causing
offence) we could simply discuss their teachings.
I wonder if you will agree when I say there are basically two versions of the
Dhamma. One is a traditional - or conventional - type of teaching that contains
a list of things to do in order to attain something in the future. The other is
a strictly "here and now" teaching, in which past and future are completely
irrelevant.
I make no distinction between Ajahn Cha and any other conventional-style
teacher. As far as I am concerned they have all missed the point. And so I
simply look to see which of the two versions of the Dhamma any given teacher is
promoting.
Do you know what I mean by a "here and now teaching?"
I ask that in all sincerity because I genuinely don't know if Ajahn Sujin's
detractors can, or cannot, see what she is talking about.
No doubt there are some people who cannot begin to see how a teaching could be
100% here and now. But there may be others who can, and who are shocked by what
they see. (Sometimes so deeply shocked that they behave badly and try to disrupt
the forum.) Anatta can have that effect when seen, but not properly understood.

D: Ken , I did not respond to your last mail because I missed a correction of
your disrespectful  remark refering  to Ajahn Cha and the HH the Dalai Lama. You
may have been motivated by the behaviour of some what you call 'Ajahn Sujin's
detractors '  but besides that   both have nothing to do  with that , you should
know retaliation is not the Buddhist way .  Nina and Sarah provide an
outstanding example in  this respect.

I do not recognize  the basically two versions of the Dhamma you are speaking of
, but I see different approaches, different schools  and that is good so due to
various types of individuals.
Common to all are the 4 Noble Truths , in particular the 8fold Noble Path and
what I try in present exchanges is to sort out different interpretations
especially concerning the samadhi part of the path training  which I noticed is
a source of plenty of misunderstandings since years of list discussion.
  Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary is providing some common ground  as it is
obviously used by most of us.  Other teachers may be of help too but should be
quoted in relevance directly to the sacca.
Insofar I am not looking for a discussion of Ajahn Cha's teaching but would be
glad to follow  the communication ,  Alex and you seemingly  just started.

According to my understanding the  ' Here and Now teaching ' is fully covered by
Satipatthana, i.e. the 4 contemplations as explained by the Maha Satipatthana
Sutta , representing the 7th factor of the Noble Path .....or are you missing
something?

with Metta Dieter




#104863 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 8:10 am
Subject: Re:strictly techinque 	moellerdieter
  	

Hi Colette,

you wrote:

'Not to try to discount your conversation and the discussion that I was lucky
enough to be included in/as a part of, but I ask to change the subject while I
have your ear: do you know any good informational material/educational material
on the WINDS AND DROPS? I was going to use that terminology today elsewheres
concerning DROPS but hesitated because of my lack of understanding. Off the
record, I was gonna apply a theory that began by using drops, what is a single
drop, etc, how do I define a drop, what happens to a drop that turns into ice
from a low temperature, why is a "cold" drop different from a warm drop, etc.
Basically, I still have to deal with this blasted ICONOGRAPHY and how people
depend on an image or are dependent upon an image for their reality.
Any help in that will be appreciated. I will still pursue what we were
originally discussing.

D: well , wind and drops ....hm,  I can offer you something close.... about
thunder and rain   ;-)
see below..

with Metta Dieter


AN 4.102
PTS: A ii 103
Valahaka Sutta: Thunderheads
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

There are these four types of thunderheads. Which four? One that thunders but
doesn't rain, one that rains but doesn't thunder, one that neither thunders nor
rains, and one that both thunders and rains. These are the four types of
thunderheads.
"In the same way, these four types of persons resembling thunderheads are to be
found existing in the world. Which four? The one that thunders but doesn't rain,
the one that rains but doesn't thunder, the one that neither thunders nor rains,
and the one that both thunders and rains.

"And how is one the type of person who thunders but doesn't rain? There is the
case where a person has mastered the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed
prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations,
birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions.1 Yet he doesn't
discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress.' He doesn't discern,
as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress.' He doesn't
discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is the cessation of stress.' He
doesn't discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is the path of practice
leading to the cessation of stress.' This is the type of person who thunders but
doesn't rain. This type of person, I tell you, is like the thunderhead that
thunders but doesn't rain.

"And how is one the type of person who rains but doesn't thunder? There is the
case where a person has not mastered the Dhamma: dialogues... question & answer
sessions. Yet he does discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress.'
He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of
stress.' He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'This is the cessation of
stress.' He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'This is the path of
practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is the type of person who
rains but doesn't thunder. This type of person, I tell you, is like the
thunderhead that rains but doesn't thunder.

"And how is one the type of person who neither thunders nor rains? There is the
case where a person has not mastered the Dhamma: dialogues... question & answer
sessions. He doesn't discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress.'
... 'This is the origination of stress.' ... 'This is the cessation of stress.'
... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is
the type of person who neither thunders nor rains. This type of person, I tell
you, is like the thunderhead that neither thunders nor rains.

"And how is one the type of person who both thunders and rains? There is the
case where a person has mastered the Dhamma: dialogues... question & answer
sessions. He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress.' ...
'This is the origination of stress.' ... 'This is the cessation of stress.' ...
'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is the
type of person who both thunders and rains. This type of person, I tell you, is
like the thunderhead that both thunders and rains.

"There are these four types of people to be found existing in the world."




#104864 	From: "chandrafabian" <chandrafabian@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 8:45 am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	chandrafabian
  	

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Howard,
> OK, I got what you meant. It depends what one means by Theravadins.
> Also this seems to be disputed, I noticed the other day at another list.
> Nina.
> Op 30-jan-2010, om 16:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:
>
> > There is disagreement,
> > however, even among Theravadins, with regard to the origin of very
> > highly
> > esteemed Abhidhamma Pitaka.
>
>
>
>
Dear Nina,
One Bhikkhu from Srilanka told me In the first council abhidhamma (except
kathavattu which added later during 3rd council)was acctually included in the
Sutta among Khudaka Nikaya group and together was called Dhamma, so in the first
council only Dhamma and vinaya exist. later Dhamma books are divided, six groups
(not yet books) in Kuddhaka Nikaya are separated into another basket and they
name it Abhidhamma, while the rest of Dhamma groups they call it sutta.
What do you think of this?

fabian


#104865 	From: "chandrafabian" <chandrafabian@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 9:03 am
Subject: Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	chandrafabian
  	

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "drokpa" <drokpa.monk@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Lukas, Howard and all,
>
> Well Howard I do know what 'Hina' means. And eventhough I am not that concern
about so called this yana and that yana, I was ordained in Theravada tradition.
But whenever Tibetan monks see me they whisper each other - there goes a
'hinayana monk'. So what keep my thoughts bothering is - were early Mahayanists
really used the term 'Hinayana' in the way it is used today??? Even in Kenpo's
(Tibetan monastic teachers or monks) Bodhicarya-avatara class he says
Hinayanists don't have the realization of Phenomenons, Sravakas only refrain
from doing wrong but don't bother really to help others claiming Mahayana as
greater than sravakayana or rather may be Hinayana (I wander if they even know
how and in what context the word even came into being), and so on....
>
> With Metta,
> Drokpa (gypsy) monk
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" <szmicio@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi drokpa,
> > In  my opinion sravaka term refers to very specific kind of development, the
kind of listening and considering Dhamma that leads to realization of Nibbana.
> > The mahayanists could realy misunderstood theravadins, called them
hinayanists. because the savaka way of development seems very natural and high.
> > Most Mahayanist's ideas refering to Theravada are not exactly true.
> >
> > Regarding to dharmas as seen in Theravada they are not real in the sense
that they constitute the world. they are real in the sense that they can be
known. This is very important. concepts cannot be known. the dhammas can. so
this is why Buddha taught them.
> >
> > Also each dhamma is empty. sabbe dhamma anatta. and anatta means emptiness.
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Lukas
> >
> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "drokpa" <drokpa.monk@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Most Mahayanists say Sravakas or Hinayanists have only the realization of
self but not phenomenas. Would any one kindly explain this matter to me please.
Is it true? If not, how do the theravadins explain the emptiness of phenomenas
(dharmas)???
> > >
> >
>
Dear Drokpa,
The emptiness experience by Theravadins certainly not the as the Mahayanists
believe. it is not several stages of emptiness like the Mahayanists believe.

If emptiness have stages, it means lower stage certainly less empty than higher
stage right?
If that is true, the lower  stage must be not really empty right?, cause if it
is really empty there should be no stages at all.
Empty should be empty, nothing there, if there are something it is not empty.

with metta,

fabian.


#104866 	From: "chandrafabian" <chandrafabian@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 9:09 am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	chandrafabian
  	

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:
>
> Hi, Bhante -
>
> In a message dated 1/30/2010 5:18:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> drokpa.monk@... writes:
>
> Thanks  Lukas, Howard and all,
>
> Well Howard I do know what 'Hina' means. And  eventhough I am not that
> concern about so called this yana and that yana, I  was ordained in Theravada
> tradition. But whenever Tibetan monks see me they  whisper each other - there
> goes a 'hinayana monk'. So what keep my thoughts  bothering is - were early
> Mahayanists really used the term 'Hinayana' in the  way it is used today???
> Even in Kenpo's (Tibetan monastic teachers or monks)  Bodhicarya-avatara
> class he says Hinayanists don't have the realization of  Phenomenons, Sravakas
> only refrain from doing wrong but don't bother really to  help others
> claiming Mahayana as greater than sravakayana or rather may be  Hinayana (I
wander
> if they even know how and in what context the word even  came into being),
> and so on....
>
> With Metta,
> Drokpa (gypsy) monk
> ===============================
>     So, you are a Theravadin bhikkhu residing with  Mahayanist bhikkshus?
> That is unusual - though Bhikkhu Bodhi is at a monastery  that has both
> Theravadin and (Chinese) Mahayanist monks. BTW, I didn't realize  that you
> actually are a monk. My apologies for not previously addressing you  properly!
>     Those Mahayanists who speak of Theravadins as you  have indicated
> simply do not understand what Theravada is, or, perhaps they have  encountered
> the "wrong" Theravadins. ;-)
>
> With metta,
> Howard
>
>
>
>
> Seamless
>
> /A change in anything is a  change in  everything/
>
> (Anonymous)
>
>
>
>
>
My apology bhante I did not read this posts before, I don't know you are
theravadin monk

Fabian


#104867 	From: "colette" <ksheri3@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 8:56 am
Subject: Re:strictly techinque 	ksheri3
  	

Good Morning Dieter,

Wonderful choice of suttas since I began, in Buddhism, through Thanissaro
Bhikku's suttas on "This is Stress", "This is the Path to Stress", and so on.

Still, I need the actual teachings from the Mahayana-type of literature.

toodles,
colette

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Colette,
>
> you wrote:
>
> 'Not to try to discount your conversation and the discussion that I was lucky
enough to be included in/as a part of, but I ask to change the subject while I
have your ear <...>


#104868 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 1:29 pm
Subject: Venerable Ajahn Chah 	truth_aerator
  	

Hello KenH, Dieter, all,

>"kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Alex (and Dieter),
> KH: I notice A. Chah uses the words "these eyes" - plural-  and >"this nose" -
singular.  What can we infer from that? I think we can >infer that he is talking
about conventionally known eyes and nose, >don't you? If he was talking about
conditioned dhammas
>(cakkhu- ayatanna for example) wouldn't he have used the singular >"the eye"?


1) So what if he said both eyes? I don't know about Abhidhammikas, but I have
two eyes with two optic nerves. If one eye is damaged, there is still another
eye with optic nerve, and 2nd pasada rupa (Or whatever 5th century science likes
to call it) functioning. We have BOTH eyes, which is why when one eye is
damaged, there is still another + the 2nd eye helps to measure depth/distance.

2nd) There is nothing wrong with using conventional realities (as long as you
understand them being such). You yourself have used it 100x times in your post,
and Buddha used the commonly accepted and understood language for his 45 years
of teaching. Buddha felt no problem saying words such as "I, you, etc". As I've
said before, I do not interpret "Self" when using personal pronouns and so on.
It is just a grammatical nature of communication, and a required one, so that
one doesn't sound mystical.



> -------------------------
> "This is the real study. The study of books is just the external study, it’s
really hard to get it finished.
> --------------------------
>
> What does he mean? Does he himself know what he means, or is he >just using
clever sounding words to give the impression of a >meaning?

Actually He is really teaching the Dhamma well. I've had a less positive opinion
on him prior to reading book of His lectures.  He often teaches strait no
control vipassana, emphasis sati-sampajanna, criticizes cartoonish view of
Samadhi as sitting motionless, etc.

Somewhere on this board, Scott has talked about how "experience is his teacher,
not KS" or something like this. This is also what Ajahn Chah was teaching.



>How does a person study his eyes, or his ears?

With Sati-sampajanna, with panna (understanding that there is no control,
anicca, etc)


>To be fair to A Chah, this is the *conclusion* to his book of talks >and, no
doubt, he has already given more information. But is he >talking about
conditioned dhammas, or is he talking about >conventional things?

He talks about reality. I was really happy to read that he denies anything
outside of 5 Khandas, and teaches anicca-dukkha-anatta to be seen NOW.


> How sad it is to see! A famous Buddhist teacher apparently thinks >that study
and practice are ultimately different in some way.

Even the Buddha has said this, so all complains is to The Man Himself.


"If he recites many teachings, but ?" heedless man ?" doesn't do what they
say, like a cowherd counting the cattle of others, he has no share in the
contemplative life.

If he recites next to nothing but follows the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma;
abandoning passion, aversion, delusion; alert, his mind well-released, not
clinging either here or hereafter:
he has his share in the contemplative life."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.than.html#dhp-19


With metta,

Alex


#104869 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 1:43 pm
Subject: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 	truth_aerator
  	

Dear KenH, Nina, Sarah, Jon, KenO, all,

>"kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:
> How sad it is to see! A famous Buddhist teacher apparently thinks >that study
and practice are ultimately different in some way.

"If he recites many teachings, but ?" heedless man ?" doesn't do what they
say, like a cowherd counting the cattle of others, he has no share in the
contemplative life.

If he recites next to nothing but follows the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma;
abandoning passion, aversion, delusion; alert, his mind well-released, not
clinging either here or hereafter:
he has his share in the contemplative life."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.than.html#dhp-19

Alternative translation:
19. Much though he recites the sacred texts, but acts not accordingly, that
heedless man is like a cowherd who only counts the cows of others ?" he does
not partake of the blessings of the holy life.

20. Little though he recites the sacred texts, but puts the Teaching into
practice, forsaking lust, hatred, and delusion, with true wisdom and emancipated
mind, clinging to nothing of this or any other world ?" he indeed partakes of
the blessings of a holy life.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.budd.html


Study and practice here are different! One can study a lot but don't practice.
One can study a little but practice a lot. This tells us that these are
different things. Furthermore it is putting teaching into practice, not study,
is important.

So how do you interpret Dhp 19-20?


With metta,

Alex



#104870 	From: "Mike" <mikenz66@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 4:39 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	mikenz66
  	

Dear Ken,
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:
> KH: I make no distinction between Ajahn Cha and any other conventional-style
teacher. As far as I am concerned they have all missed the point. And so I
simply look to see which of the two versions of the Dhamma any given teacher is
promoting.

Mike: I would be interested to hear which teachers you (or anyone else) consider
to not be "conventional"? I am having great difficulty thinking of any teachers
who you would actually approve of. It appears to me that you would rule out
Ajahn Chah and all of his students, Mahasi Sayadaw and U Pandita and all of
their students, Ven Nyanatiloka and his direct and indirect students such as
Bhikkhu Bodhi...


Metta
Mike


#104871 	From: "drokpa" <drokpa.monk@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 5:23 pm
Subject: Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	dhdipa
  	

Dear Fabian, and all,

"""Empty should be empty, nothing there, if there are something it is not
empty"""

I am not sure how much the difference between Theravada and Mahayana emptiness
is. But as you said above '...if there is something it is not empty'. So since
Theravadins say in the analysis the ultimate is that which survives analysis
which are irreducible. Since there is something which is irreducible, then how
can there be emptiness??? I think this was the problem of Nagarjuna (happy to be
corrected).

With Metta,
Droka monk

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "chandrafabian" <chandrafabian@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "drokpa" <drokpa.monk@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Lukas, Howard and all,
> >
> > Well Howard I do know what 'Hina' means. And eventhough I am not that
concern about so called this yana and that yana, I was ordained in Theravada
tradition. But whenever Tibetan monks see me they whisper each other - there
goes a 'hinayana monk'. So what keep my thoughts bothering is - were early
Mahayanists really used the term 'Hinayana' in the way it is used today??? Even
in Kenpo's (Tibetan monastic teachers or monks) Bodhicarya-avatara class he says
Hinayanists don't have the realization of Phenomenons, Sravakas only refrain
from doing wrong but don't bother really to help others claiming Mahayana as
greater than sravakayana or rather may be Hinayana (I wander if they even know
how and in what context the word even came into being), and so on....
> >
> > With Metta,
> > Drokpa (gypsy) monk
> >
> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" <szmicio@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi drokpa,
> > > In  my opinion sravaka term refers to very specific kind of development,
the kind of listening and considering Dhamma that leads to realization of
Nibbana.
> > > The mahayanists could realy misunderstood theravadins, called them
hinayanists. because the savaka way of development seems very natural and high.
> > > Most Mahayanist's ideas refering to Theravada are not exactly true.
> > >
> > > Regarding to dharmas as seen in Theravada they are not real in the sense
that they constitute the world. they are real in the sense that they can be
known. This is very important. concepts cannot be known. the dhammas can. so
this is why Buddha taught them.
> > >
> > > Also each dhamma is empty. sabbe dhamma anatta. and anatta means
emptiness.
> > >
> > > Best wishes
> > > Lukas
> > >
> > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "drokpa" <drokpa.monk@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Most Mahayanists say Sravakas or Hinayanists have only the realization
of self but not phenomenas. Would any one kindly explain this matter to me
please. Is it true? If not, how do the theravadins explain the emptiness of
phenomenas (dharmas)???
> > > >
> > >
> >
> Dear Drokpa,
> The emptiness experience by Theravadins certainly not the as the Mahayanists
believe. it is not several stages of emptiness like the Mahayanists believe.
>
> If emptiness have stages, it means lower stage certainly less empty than
higher stage right?
> If that is true, the lower  stage must be not really empty right?, cause if it
is really empty there should be no stages at all.
> Empty should be empty, nothing there, if there are something it is not empty.
>
> with metta,
>
> fabian.
>


#104872 	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu.samahita@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 4:45 pm
Subject: The 4-Fold Advantage! 	bhikkhu.sama...
  	

Friends:

    The Fourfold Prime Advantage:



A deity once asked the Buddha:
What is good, when one is old?
What is good, when established?
What is a human's finest treasure?
What is hard for robbers to steal?
The blessed Buddha answered:
Morality <http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Mighty_is_Morality.htm>  is
good, even when one is old!
Conviction <http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/III/Faith_Summary.htm>  is
good, when firmly established!
Understanding
<http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/III/The_Understanding_Ability.htm>  is
any human's finest treasure!
Merit <http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/V/Pure_Merit.htm>  well done is
impossible for robbers to steal!



Source:
The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I [39-40]
  <http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507>
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507
  <http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html



Have a nice & noble day!


Friendship is the Greatest!
  <http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhikkhu_Samahita> Bhikkhu
Samahita _/\_ Sri
<http://what-buddha-said.net/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemI
d=2053>  Lanka *
http://What-Buddha-Said.net <http://what-buddha-said.net/>

The 4-Fold Advantage!





#104873 	From: "charlest" <dhammasaro@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 3:53 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	dhammasaro
  	

Good friend Dieter Moeller,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Chuck,
>
> you wrote:
>
> 'May I retract my offer of a comment?
>
> This obnoxious, obstinate, ole, opinionated, Texican is sure some spurious
super superior vagrants will find fault (i. e.: non-peace) with my honest
assessment and again and again send me condemning e-mail!!!'
>
> D: who says that this ...Texican cannot deliver his honest  assesment in a
karmic wholesome way  ("He avoids harsh language and abstains from it. He speaks
such words as are gentle, soothing to the ear, loving, such words as go to the
heart, and are courteous, friendly, and agreeable to many.")
>
> ;-))
>
>
> with Metta Dieter
>
>
>
>
>


C:  No further comment.


#104874 	From: "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 8:07 pm
Subject: Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) 	jonoabb
  	

Hi Dieter

Thanks for these further comments.

(104791)
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
>
> "The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully &
appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:
"'When this is, that is.
"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that snip
>
> The translator inserted ' however'  to highlight the change to the  instructed
disciple of the noble ones,  who  ( 'don't allow' the monkey - mind such 
ignorant jumping anymore  by following/having followed  the instructions of the
samadhi part  training , right effort  for example   and so ) are able
> to attends carefully & appropriately right there ...(sati)
> ===============

I agree that the sutta highlights the difference between the uninstructed
worldling and the instructed noble disciple.

The particular difference being drawn can be seen from the abbreviated version
of the sutta (copied from ati) set out at the end of this message.

In summary:

-  The uninstructed worldling may be able to gain release from the body (para
[1]), but he is unable to gain release from the mind (para [2]).

-  The instructed noble disciple, however, is able to gain release from both
body and mind (paras [4] and [5]).  This is achieved because of his
understanding of DO.

In para [3] the Buddha explains why it would be "better" if the uninstructed
worldling were to take the body for self rather than the mind, i.e., the
opposite to the situation described in paras [1] and [2].

This is because the body is seen standing for a lifetime, whereas the mind
continuously "arises as one thing and ceases as another" (the monkey simile).

> ===============
> If the monkey mind nature would still prevail with the instructed , then all
what has been said about mind development would be rather fruitless, wouldn't
it?
> ===============

I don't read it that way.  The monkey simile describes the nature of the mind in
general, rather than the restlessness of a mind with kilesa in particular.

That nature is that it always takes an object, which means that it is always
taking a different object.  This is just as much so in the case of the
instructed noble disciple as in the case of the uninstructed worldling (seeing,
hearing, touching, etc, with multiple processed of thinking in between each
sense-door experience).

Jon

*********************************
"Assutava Sutta: Uninstructed" (SN 12.61),

[1]  "Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with
this body composed of the four great elements, ... might gain release from it.
   Why is that?
   Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body
composed of the four great elements are apparent...

[2]  "But as for what's called 'mind,' ... the uninstructed run-of-the-mill
person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, ... unable to gain release from
it.
   Why is that?
   For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the
uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is
what I am.' ...

[3]  "It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to
the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self.
   Why is that?
   Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for ...
a hundred years or more.
   But what's called 'mind,' ... by day and by night arises as one thing and
ceases as another.
   Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch.
Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. ...

[4]  "The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully &
appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:
   "'When this is, that is. ...
   "'Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes
the cessation of fabrications. ...

[5]  "Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted
with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted
with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness.
   Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully
released. ...

translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
Access to Insight, June 7, 2009,
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html

*********************************


#104875 	From: "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 8:20 pm
Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 	jonoabb
  	

Hi Alex

(104869)
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
wrote:
>
> "If he recites many teachings, but ?" heedless man ?" doesn't do what they
say, like a cowherd counting the cattle of others, he has no share in the
contemplative life.
>
> If he recites next to nothing but follows the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma;
abandoning passion, aversion, delusion; alert, his mind well-released, not
clinging either here or hereafter:
> he has his share in the contemplative life."
>
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.than.html#dhp-19
>
> Alternative translation:
> 19. Much though he recites the sacred texts, but acts not accordingly, that
heedless man is like a cowherd who only counts the cows of others ?" he does
not partake of the blessings of the holy life.
>
> 20. Little though he recites the sacred texts, but puts the Teaching into
practice, forsaking lust, hatred, and delusion, with true wisdom and emancipated
mind, clinging to nothing of this or any other world ?" he indeed partakes of
the blessings of a holy life.
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.budd.html
>
>
> Study and practice here are different! One can study a lot but don't practice.
One can study a little but practice a lot. This tells us that these are
different things. Furthermore it is putting teaching into practice, not study,
is important.
>
> So how do you interpret Dhp 19-20?
> ===============

I interpret these verses as saying that reading/reciting/'studying' the texts
should not be equated with pariyatti (an understanding of the texts at an
intellectual level).

The (conventional) act of reading/reciting/'studying' the texts can be carried
out with or without understanding.  Indeed, it may be done with wrong view.

Jon


#104876 	From: Vince <cerovzt@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 8:18 pm
Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] terms and realities. 	cerovzt@...
  	

Dear Nina

you wrote:


> N: You come back to this all the time. But here it is clearly
> explained that kamma conditions consciousness, namely consciousness
> that is vipaakacitta, not any citta, not every citta.

this use of vipaakacitta doesn't seem to be specially hidden or
subtile:

"Then the thought occurred to me, 'This consciousness turns back at
name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is
birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising, i.e., from
name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from
consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html



> As Ken O explained, not every ruupa is conditioned
> by citta. Ruupa  can also be conditioned by temperature. Ruupas
> outside are only  conditioned by temperature. Ruupas of the body can
> be conditioned by  kamma, or by citta, or by temperature or by
> nutrition. All this deserves a detailed study.

yes, but I find a contradiction when we say that there is "there is
only nama&rupa" and at same time we talk of inner and outer rupa.

To avoid repetitions, I have answered to Ken.



best wishes,


Vince.


#104877 	From: Vince <cerovzt@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 8:28 pm
Subject: Re[6]: [dsg] terms and realities. 	cerovzt@...
  	

Dear Ken:


>>V: I understand also there is a need of continuation, but, How can we
>>know there is a bhavanga citta, except by inference?
> KO: It could be known but that is only possible with panna.? It is
> shown by Buddha that there is bhavanga cittas so it could be
> directly now.? It is just that we are still not there yet.

I agree and also I believe that. However that's faith.
While we don't have the direct knowledge, we are only inferring that.


>>V: It means that if there is notconsciousness there is not nama and
>>rupa. And also, if there is not nama and rupa there is not
>>consciousness.
> KO:?it is easy to fall into this view because all of what we know
> arise from our senses.? This resulted a tendency to think in that
> way.? But according to the texts, there are external objects,
> external rupas which are conditioned by temperature.

Are there external rupa and  inner rupa?.
From where we are checking that?. Where is the border between the
inner and the outside?. It's my mind? My body?


> We cannot said that it is just because it is conditioned,?it cannot
> condition dhammas, then avijja which is conditioned, could not
> condition our rebirths.? Since temperature is an element, it is able
> to condition other elements.

yes, she can condition but it doesn't mean temperature can exist by
itself.

Sujin cites a similar problem using the "Kindred Sayings" in
Abbhidhamma in Daily Life, p.148:

"Is mind the bond of mind-objects? Or are mind-objects the bond of the
mind?"

She explain what we call "outside" are outer atayanas, and the
"inner" are inner atayanas. Attayana means sense-field. But without
confusing that field with a place:

in p. 156-157:
"they do no come from anywhere previous to their arising, nor do they
go anywhere after they falling away."

she points in these pages the difference between outer and inner is
delusion. When she says "Attayana is sense-field" I understand she
don't talk about space (as an space able to contain rupa) but about an
ambit which is born as soon there is the co-dependent arising of
consciousness and nama&rupa.
That's to say, all three arises in the same instant: consciousness,
nama&rupa, and the bond between them. And from here, the rest.



best wishes,


Vince.


#104878 	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 8:40 pm
Subject: Re: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear pt,

Thx for your interest and careful consideration, as usual.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Sarah,
>
> I was going through this topic in UP - "Stages of Insight 2 of Bodhisatta and
disciples in previous lives".
>
> I was wondering if in the few years since this was discussed you've perhaps
learned something new or changed your opinion? I mean, it seems interesting that
you disagree with Ven.Dhammanando's conclusions, so I was also wondering wehther
you had the chance to discuss this with him further over the years?
....
S: My conclusions after more reflection are the same (more on them later), but
there is a rather major error in what I wrote in #45763 - so I'll use this
opportunity to re-post it later. The error concerns the example of Jotipala.
Actually, it was originally K.Sujin who made the error and it was Kelvin on DSG
who helped me pick it up and show it to her. Simply, the texts quoted (the sutta
in MN and the Jataka) are referring to two different lives as bodhisatta of
Gotama Buddha in which he was called Jotipala both times - very confusing!

As for the main issue with regard to attaining (the highest) levels of insight
and being thereby destined to enlightenment without further rebirth in unhappy
realms, I think this is correct and how I read the texts. Once when Ven
Dhammanando attended the Foundation discussion, I brought up the topic of
sankharupekha nana and whether it could have been attained previously by the
bodhisatta (as he had suggested here), but he just made a comment about being
unsure as I recall or not in a position to discuss it further. The point K.Sujin
has made and which I've pursued is that at such a degree of insight,
enlightenment is inevitable in that life-time.
...
> I also get the feeling that the issue of cula sotapanna and it's applicability
to bodhisattas wasn't resolved - i.e. I get the picture that Ven.Dhammanando had
something to say on that point (asking you about it in #42602), but didn't as he
probably didn't catch your response (#45763).
...
S: [As I said, there is an error in the reference to the (two) Jotipala
accounts.]

I was going to respond separately to Han's quote from Dr Mehm Tin Mon (#104639).
Basically, I understand the cula sotapanna to be destined to become a sotapanna,
however long that may take and that's why he's called a "lesser sotapanna". When
it says he will not be reborn in the apaaya abodes, I understand that to be ever
again, not just the "subsequent life", which would not be anything so special.
He has firm understanding and insight into namas and rupas and conditioned
dhammas. There are no more conditions for doubt about the path or about these
realities. With firm confidence in the teachings, future enlightenment is
assured.

I don't believe that a bodhisatta has yet reached such insights, otherwise he'd
be the savaka of a previous Buddha, not a samma-sambuddha who (having heard the
Teachings from previous Buddhas), attains all stages of insight and
enlightenment in his last life when he becomes 'self-enlightened'.
....
>
> Also, I'm not clear on the role of aspirations/vows in preventing the progress
of insight beyond sankharupekha nana stage until the final life.
...
S: Because of the nature of Buddhahood, the parami (perfections) take countless
aeons to develop. Also, for the chief disciples, because of the degree of purity
and again the level of the paramis, the path is very long. I think it's
impossible, as I've indicated, that prior stages of insight, esp. sankharupekkha
nana, were attained in the life when the vows were made.

Also, in another message to me on Bodhisattas and aspriations (#104595), I don't
believe there is anything along the lines you refer to in "later literature" in
the Theravada texts re "the desire to become a Buddha without declaring his
intention to others" before making a resolution. I could be wrong, but I suspect
this is from Mahayana texts.
...
>
> In fact, if you find the time, perhaps you can say a bit how you understand
aspirations and vows to work in case of all three kinds of buddhas - savakas,
paccekas and sammasambuddhas.
...
S: In the case of sammasambuddhas, the texts are very clear with regard to the
conditions as discussed before. The aspiration before a Buddha, the Buddha's
acknowledgement, with all the other factors in place, is the conditon for the
path of the Bodhisatta, leading to sammasambuddhahood. There can only be one
such sammasambuddha in a "Buddha era". The next one will be Maitreya, when all
the teachings have completely died out. As far as I know, these are the only
aspirations to become a Buddha referred to.

I'm vague on other aspirations. For example, we read about aspriations to become
a future Buddha's chief disciple and so on, but would have to check the details.
I don't recall reading about pacceka aspirations. You or others may have
references. I don't have texts (and only limited internet) here in Australia.
...
> I.e. I get the picture that aspirations would have to do with chanda cetasika,
while vows would have to do with adimokkha cetasika, but I'm not quite clear how
to differentiate these in real-life. Thanks.
...
S: If we're referring to the aspirations/vows of the Bodhisatta, then I
understand they refer to chanda, adhimokkha, panna and all the various parami.

Usually when we make aspirations or vows in "real-life" they are as likely to be
lobha as anything else - wishing for some kind of result!

We discussed (and I wrote a post about) the sutta in MN where the Buddha
describes his previous determinations, austerities and so on. For us, this would
mostly be a description of wrong view and lobha, full of "atta", but for the
Bodhisatta with his great parami accumulated prior to his last life, the
(samma)viriya is predominant at such a time. So whatever the terms, it always
comes back to an understanding of the citta at this moment.

I'm not sure if this takes the discussion further. Later when I have time (ha,
ha!),I'll repost #45763, correcting or omitting the Jotipala references which
are misleading.

I'd be interested to hear you comments (or anyone else's )on this topic. By now,
you've probably listened to many audio recordings on it too.

Metta

Sarah
========



#104879 	From: "colette" <ksheri3@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	ksheri3
  	

Hi Charlest and Dieter,

As we said in the Navy: "DAMNED TO BAD LUCK", I differ, FURTHER COMMENT IS
REQUIRED.

Dieter, there is a purpose for abstaining from "harsh speach". Just as there is
a purpose for abstaining THEN there is a purpose for using harsh speach.

While it may be natural for Charlest to abuse his label as a spurious Texican w/
unussual characteristics of speach the probability that he speaks like that is
just a normal characteristic of normal speach within a large portion of the
society. I might even be so bold as to take credit for offering the ability for
people like Charlest to actually speak in this forum since my use of language is
rather resque at times and it takes me a lot of effort to refrain from writing
as I speak.

Sure, I agree that my technique is not advisable for 99% of the practitioners to
use but to allow this MISS CONCEPTION OF THE NATURE OF PURITY to be waltzed
before my very eyes and think that it will not be used in the future to entrap
myself is PURE INSANITY.

toodles,
colette

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" <dhammasaro@...> wrote:
>
> Good friend Dieter Moeller,
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@>
wrote:
> >
> > Hi Chuck,
> >
> > you wrote:
> >
> > 'May I retract my offer of a comment?
> >
> > This obnoxious, obstinate, ole, opinionated, Texican is sure some spurious
super superior vagrants will find fault (i. e.: non-peace) with my honest
assessment and again and again send me condemning e-mail!!!'
> >
> > D: who says that this ...Texican cannot deliver his honest  assesment in a
karmic wholesome way  ("He avoids harsh language and abstains from it. He speaks
such words as are gentle, soothing to the ear, loving, such words as go to the
heart, and are courteous, friendly, and agreeable to many.")
> >
> > ;-))
> >
> >
> > with Metta Dieter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
> C:  No further comment.
>


#104880 	From: "charlest" <dhammasaro@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 10:00 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	dhammasaro
  	

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Chuck ...,
>
> you wrote:
>
> (D: P.S.: I am wondering that only Alex responded to the recent remarks about
Acharn Cha and.>>)
>
>
> C: FWIW...
>
> Perhaps, I will after this interesting dialogue slows or ends...
> One may accuse me of being a fan of Acharn Cha, Acharn Mun (Man) and other
Thai
> "meditation masters."
> I happily accept the accusation...
> peace...
>
>
> D:  would be nice  to learn your conclusion lateron.. in peace of course  ;-)
>
>
> with Metta Dieter
>
>......................................................
>
>
>
>
>
>Good friend Dieter Moeller,
>
>--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" ><moellerdieter@...>
>wrote:
>
> Hi Chuck,
>
> you wrote:
>
> 'May I retract my offer of a comment?
>
> This obnoxious, obstinate, ole, opinionated, Texican is sure some >spurious
>super superior vagrants will find fault (i. e.: non-peace) with my >honest
>assessment and again and again send me condemning e-mail!!!'
>
> D: who says that this ...Texican cannot deliver his honest >assesment in a
>karmic wholesome way ("He avoids harsh language and abstains from >it. He
speaks
>such words as are gentle, soothing to the ear, loving, such words as >go to the
>heart, and are courteous, friendly, and agreeable to many.")
>
> ;-))
>
>
> with Metta Dieter
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





C: No further comment.


#104881 	From: "charlest" <dhammasaro@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 10:14 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	dhammasaro
  	

Good friend Dieter Moeller,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Chuck,
>
> you wrote:
>
> (D: [Name deleted] this list is stated to be a Theravada ( Teaching of the
Elders) Buddhist list , i.e. its base is the Pali Canon.. and the decision
whether true or false Dhamma depends on what has been said and what not
according to the Tipitaka.. )
> C: FWIW, over the many years since joining in 2001, I strongly felt the same.
Far, far too, too many incidences have I felt I was at a M&#257;dhyamikas Buddha
list; rather, than at a Theravadin Buddha list!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> D: well, .... until proven wrong/false in respect to the Canon ..
>
> Besides the grand  references mentioned in the Maha Parinibbana Sutta,  the
Buddha declared the appearance of the  8fold Noble Path crucial
> in each teaching for any possibility of nobility..the 4 states of holiness.
>
>
> with Metta Dieter
>
>
>
>


C:

1.  Please forgive the delay in answering.

2.  Please forgive my dullness.  I simply do not understand your comments'
relevance to my comment repeated below:

[Quote]

C: FWIW, over the many years since joining in 2001, I strongly felt the same.
Far, far too, too many incidences have I felt I was at a M&#257;dhyamikas Buddha
list; rather, than at a Theravadin Buddha list!!!

[End quote]

peace...

metta (maitri),

Chuck


#104882 	From: "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 12:39 am
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	kenhowardau
  	

Hi Dieter,

--------
<. . .>
D: > Ken , I did not respond to your last mail because I missed a correction of
your disrespectful remark refering to Ajahn Cha and the HH the Dalai Lama. You
may have been motivated by the behaviour of some what you call 'Ajahn Sujin's
detractors ' but besides that both have nothing to do with that , you should
know retaliation is not the Buddhist way . Nina and Sarah provide an outstanding
example in this respect.
---------

Yes, I try to learn from Nina and Sarah, and from many other DSG members. But I
can't be as careful as some in choosing my words. I have to discuss the Dhamma
to the best of my limited ability, and too much political correctness cramps my
style. :-)

At DSG we discuss both right views and wrong views. Inevitably, someone will
protest, "But the respected monk Ajahn X teaches that! Are you saying Ajahn X
has wrong view?"

What can a person say in that case?

---------------------------------------
D: > I do not recognize the basically two versions of the Dhamma you are
speaking of, but I see different approaches, different schools and that is good
so due to various types of individuals.
---------------------------------------

Here we disagree. The way I see it, a view (ditthi), is either right or wrong.
Of any two opposing views, only one can be right.

----------------------
D: > Common to all are the 4 Noble Truths, in particular the 8fold Noble Path
and what I try in present exchanges is to sort out different interpretations
especially concerning the samadhi part of the path training which I noticed is a
source of plenty of misunderstandings since years of list discussion.
----------------------

I wonder how much really is 'common to all.'

One version of the Dhamma tells us to understand the realities that are arising
now, and I believe that people who adhere to that version basically agree on
everything. There might be a few technical details to iron out, but basically
they have a common agreement on the entire Dhamma.

Other versions of the Dhamma try to tell us something else. I won't elaborate on
what they try tell us because I sincerely believe there are as many versions of
modern-day Buddhism as there are modern-day Buddhists. Everyone seems to have
his own ideas on 'what the Buddha taught.'

The only thing these other versions all agree on is that there must be
meditation, or formal practice, of some kind.

--------------------------------------
<. . .>
D: > According to my understanding the ' Here and Now teaching ' is fully
covered by Satipatthana, i.e. the 4 contemplations as explained by the Maha
Satipatthana Sutta , representing the 7th factor of the Noble Path .....or are
you missing something?
---------------------------------------

What are the realities that are arising now, Dieter?

Is there any other question that really needs answering?

Ken H


#104883 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 12:42 am
Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 13. 	nilovg
  	

Dear friends,

First of all I wish to give an illustration of the development of the
Perfections by the Bodhisatta during the life when he was the ascetic
Akitti. We read in the Basket of Conduct (Cariy?-pi?aka, I, Conduct
of Akitti) that the Buddha spoke about the Perfection of liberality
he accumulated in that life. Sakka, King of the Devas (divine beings)
of the ?Threefold Heaven? came to him in the disguise of a brahman,
asking for almsfood. Akitti had for his meal only leaves without oil
or salt, but he gave them away wholeheartedly and went without food.
We read:

And a second and third time he came up to me. Unmoved, without
clinging, I gave as before.
By reason of this there was no discolouration of my physical frame.
With zest and happiness, with delight I spent that day.
If for only a month or for two months I were to find a worthy
recipient, unmoved, unflinching, I would give the supreme gift.
While I was giving him the gift I did not aspire for fame or gain.
Aspiring for omniscience I did those deeds (of merit).

Akitti performed this generous deed in order to accumulate conditions
for the attainment of Buddhahood in the future. The commentary to
this text, the Paramatthad?pan?, states that Akitti accumulated all
ten Perfections while he was giving his gift.
The Perfection of liberality is developed in order to have less
clinging to possessions. We cling to material things because we want
the ?self? to be happy. If we do not learn to give away material
things, how could we ever get rid of clinging to the concept of self?
Akitti also accumulated good moral conduct, wholesomeness by action
and speech. He was helping the brahman in giving him food. He
accumulated renunciation. Renunciation is not merely renunciation of
the household life. All kinds of wholesomeness are forms of
renunciation, of detachment. One renounces clinging to oneself, to
one?s own comfort. Akitti renounced his own comfort when he went
without food for three days. Akitti accumulated the Perfection of
wisdom. The Perfection of wisdom is not only right understanding of
the eightfold Path, it comprises all levels of wisdom. The
Bodhisatta, even when he was an animal, accumulated the Perfection of
wisdom. He knew akusala as akusala, kusala as kusala, he knew the
right conditions for the attainment of Buddhahood.

*******
Nina.



#104884 	From: "charlest" <dhammasaro@...>
Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 11:35 pm
Subject: Re: Ajahn Jumnien, was: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship 	dhammasaro
  	

Good friends all,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" <dhammasaro@...> wrote:
>
> Good friends all,
>
> >>... snip
>
> C:  It seems one can not edit a message...
>
> Below is what I sent with omission added as noted!!!
> ...........................................................
>
> Ajahn Jumnien; was, Insight Steps to bare Arhatship
>
> Good friend pt, et al
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" <dhammasaro@> wrote:
> >
> > Good friend pt, et al
> >
> >... snip
> > >
> > > > C: On ajahn Jumnien, I think I visited his monastery a year or two
before the tsunami...
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> C: Found this Dhamma talk by Ajahn Jumnien. It is translated into English by a
former English monk under Ajahn Chah.
>
> Perhaps, you will find it useful...
>
> peace...
>
> metta (maitri),
>
> Chuck
>
> [Edit:  Add web site... 
http://88000.multiply.com/music/item/149/Ajahn_Jumnien_1_song
>
> One may need to join to hear the audio...
>
> One may un-join after hearing the audio...
>
> One may remain a member and become active as one wishes...
>
> [End sidebar]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > C: Well, I did miss many... Ajahn Chah for one... Ajahn Buddhadasa for
> another... but, I study their Dhamma talks...
> >
> > I will keep my "ears open" for any discussion on Thai monks following the
> Mahayana Tradition on the Bodhisattva.
> >
> > Please keep in touch, so to write... [beeg Texican smiles]
> >
> > peace...
> >
> > metta (maitri),
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> > Post script: This is where I met Ajahn Plien:
> >
> >
>
http://kasteelzeist.multiply.com/photos/album/57/Wat_Phare_Mahajedee_Rachsamjamm\
\
> adhevesrivechai
> >
>


C:  For some reason the full web page did not print!!! [bummers!!!]

Again:

http://88000.multiply.com/music/item/149/Ajahn_Jumnien

or

http://88000.multiply.com/music/item/149/Ajahn_Jumnien_1_song?replies_read=1


Trust I got it right this time...

peace...

metta (maitri),

Chuck


#104885 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 12:33 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	upasaka_howard
  	

Dear Bhante (and Fabian) -

In a message dated 2/2/2010 8:24:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
drokpa.monk@... writes:

Dear  Fabian, and all,

"""Empty should be empty, nothing there, if there are  something it is not
empty"""

I am not sure how much the difference  between Theravada and Mahayana
emptiness is. But as you said above '...if  there is something it is not empty'.
So since Theravadins say in the analysis  the ultimate is that which
survives analysis which are irreducible. Since  there is something which is
irreducible, then how can there be emptiness??? I  think this was the problem of
Nagarjuna (happy to be corrected).

With  Metta,
Droka monk
============================
     To the best of my knowledge, neither Theravada  nor Mahayana views
emptiness as absolute nothingness. In both cases, the  emptiness is an emptiness
of self, core, substance, "soul", or independent  existence. In the Pali
suttas, the Buddha taught that every element of every  aggregate is empty of a
lasting core of self-defining nature and existence,  but he did not teach a
stark nihilism. Neither did the Perfection of Wisdom  Sutras of Mahayana or
their elucidator, the Mahayanist master,  Nagarjuna.
     As the Buddha taught by allegory in the Snake Sutta  of the Sutta
Nipata, there are fig trees (discernible phenomena), but there  are no flowers
(self/core/substance) to be found in them. The emptiness taught  by the Buddha
is not a nihilism, but a subtle middle-way teaching of anatta  which, in
it's fullness, is unique to him.

With metta,
Howard


Emptiness

/He who does not find core or  substance in any of the realms of being,
like flowers which are vainly sought in  fig trees that bear none — such a
seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just  as a serpent sheds its worn-out
skin./

(From the Uraga  Sutta)




#104886 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 6:28 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	nilovg
  	

Hi Howard, Sarah and friends,
Op 3-feb-2010, om 14:33 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:

> The emptiness taught by the Buddha
> is not a nihilism, but a subtle middle-way teaching of anatta
> which, in
> it's fullness, is unique to him.
------
N: Well said, Howard. It is very subtle. Understandable that this is
not immediately seen. That is why people wonder about killing: if
there is nothing one cannot kill a person, etc. There are all sorts
of questions. Also logic will not answer all questions, but in the
practice it will become clearer.

I am very sad, just heard today that my brother (71 years) had died.
He lives in the South of France and we have to go there for the
cremation. It helps though to remember: Just like now: each citta
dies at each moment. What do I expect? Countless lives of birth and
death. I remember him as a baby, just born, and I was seven years
old. Just as if it was yesterday.

I just read about the length of lives of the Anaagaami who can attain
arahtship in a Brahma plane, being there half way, etc. Even when one
has become a sotaapanna it may still be aeons before reaching
arahatship. Truly this is a long, long time practice. No wonder it
takes us so long to develop just a little understanding, even now.

Sorry friends, the coming days I may not have much time to answer
Emails, but I try in between as best as I can.

Nina.



#104887 	From: nichicon cp <nichicon@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 7:26 am
Subject: dhammastudy site safe again 	nichiconn
  	

Dear Vince and All,
Just to add my thanks and forward the message copied below about the
dhammastudy.com site being safe again.
peace,
connie

Dear Friends,

I'm happy to report that our hosting server has eliminated the virus from
our site, which is now safe again to visit.

Thank you for your patience, and special thanks for those who found out
about the problem and alerted us, many thanks indeed,

Best wishes,

Amara



#104888 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 7:41 am
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [dsg] terms and realities. 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear Vince


>I agree and also I believe that. However that's faith.
>While we don't have the direct knowledge, we are only inferring that.

KO:  that is true, we have to infer to understand even the meaning of direct
knowledge.  It is still conventional level.

>> KO: it is easy to fall into this view because all of what we know
>> arise from our senses.  This resulted a tendency to think in that
>> way.  But according to the texts, there are external objects,
>> external rupas which are conditioned by temperature.
>
>Are there external rupa and inner rupa?.
>From where we are checking that?. Where is the border between the
>inner and the outside?. It's my mind? My body?

KO:  Yes there is external rupa and inner rupa.  Inner rupa is the subtle rupa
like eye sense.  External rupa is the colour that impinge on the internal rupa
- eyes sense.      External rupa do exist like rock as I mentioned
earlier.  The colour of the rock (external rupa) is what seen by seeing citta
through the eye sense (internal rupa) which acts as the door way and base.  It
is difficult to see the subtle difference between external and internal, the
importance is the experience of the moment, the understanding of the sense
reality at that moment.  


>
>yes, she can condition but it doesn't mean temperature can exist by
>itself.

KO:  Yes definite the temperature cannot exist by itself, it is also
conditioned.  What we are saying is that it is the main cause for the external
rupa just like kamma is the main cause of rebirth.

>she points in these pages the difference between outer and inner is
>delusion. When she says "Attayana is sense-field" I understand she
>don't talk about space (as an space able to contain rupa) but about an
>ambit which is born as soon there is the co-dependent arising of
>consciousness and nama&rupa.
>That's to say, all three arises in the same instant: consciousness,
>nama&rupa, and the bond between them. And from here, the rest.

KO:   the outer and inner is not important.  Also it does not matter where
it arise and where it goes, as they are not helping in our direct
understanding of the reality.     It is the unwholesome mental factors
or cetasikas like lobha or lust that is the importance, that we should
understand as it arise or understand the reality of these cetasikas.  Using the
sutta you quote,

“How now, friend? Is the eye the bond of objects, or are objects the
bond of the eye? Is the tongue the bond of savours, or are savours the
bond of the tongue? Is mind the bond of mind-objects
mind-objects the bond of the mind?”
 
“Not so, friend Koììhika. The eye is not the bond of objects, nor are
objects the bond of the eye, but that desire and lust that arise owing
to these two. That is the bond. And so with the tongue and the
mind… it is the desire and lust that arise owing to savours and
tongue, mind-objects and mind.
 
KO:  Lust is the attayana she is talking about and not about an ambit.  The
lust with wrong view that create this illusion of self.   Then we read
further in the sutta
 If the eye, friend, were the bond of objects, or if objects were the
bond of the eye, then this righteous life for the utter destruction of
dukkha could not be proclaimed. But since it is not so, but the desire
and lust which arise owing to them are the bond, therefore is the
righteous life for the utter destruction of dukkha proclaimed…
 
 
KO:  Again this show that it is not the objects (visible objects or
colour) -or the eye citta is the bond or cause of the desire or lust.  Rather
the bond is the result of the coming together of the eye and objects with the
arisen of lust.   These passages also clearly illustrate that there is no "I"
or a "self" that cause the arisen of lust or desire, it is realities of namas
and rupas that cause the arisen of lust or desire.   Just anatta.
 
When we have this in mind all realities are anatta and not cause by a self, then
we will slowly see the nama and rupas of realities.  If we still cling to a
concept of self that could directly make an effort to eradicate, we will not
see nama and rupa because the citta is infatuated with the thinking of self. 
Then panna will not arise. 
 
 
 
Cheers
Ken O2, or are 




#104889 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 7:51 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear Ken H

>---------
>
>Yes, I try to learn from Nina and Sarah, and from many other DSG members. But I
can't be as careful as some in choosing my words. I have to discuss the Dhamma
to the best of my limited ability, and too much political correctness cramps my
style. :-)


KO:? After all these years, I could not help smiling when you write this, this
is truly your accumulation?:-)? Even though that is you, I like to request a
favour from you, tone down a bit.? Because not everyone is like you and?not
everyone understand your style and your intention?:-).???? You remind of a story
just like a mother who tell off his son and then said the son to be hit by a
bull, but inside her heart she does not even wish a leaf to fall onto the son.?
You are?similar to?the mother.?



Cheers
Ken O




#104890 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 2:51 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	upasaka_howard
  	

Hi, Nina (and Sarah & all) -

In a message dated 2/3/2010 9:29:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
vangorko@... writes:

Hi  Howard, Sarah and friends,
Op 3-feb-2010, om 14:33 heeft upasaka@...  het volgende geschreven:

> The emptiness taught by the  Buddha
> is not a nihilism, but a subtle middle-way teaching of  anatta
> which, in
> it's fullness, is unique to  him.
------
N: Well said, Howard. It is very subtle. Understandable that  this is
not immediately seen. That is why people wonder about  killing: if
there is nothing one cannot kill a person, etc. There  are all sorts
of questions. Also logic will not answer all  questions, but in the
practice it will become clearer.

I am  very sad, just heard today that my brother (71 years) had died.
He  lives in the South of France and we have to go there for the
cremation. It helps though to remember: Just like now: each citta
dies at each moment. What do I expect? Countless lives of birth and
death. I remember him as a baby, just born, and I was seven years
old. Just as if it was yesterday.
------------------------------------------------------
     I'm so sorry, Nina! What a sad loss, and at far too  young an age. I'm
grateful, though, that your trust in the Dhamma and your  understanding of
it can help you through this.
---------------------------------------------------



I just read about the length of lives of the Anaagaami who can  attain
arahtship in a Brahma plane, being there half way, etc. Even  when one
has become a sotaapanna it may still be aeons before  reaching
arahatship. Truly this is a long, long time practice. No  wonder it
takes us so long to develop just a little understanding,  even now.

Sorry friends, the coming days I may not have much time to  answer
Emails, but I try in between as best as I  can.
------------------------------------------------
     Be well, Nina. I am holding you in my  thoughts.
----------------------------------------------



Nina.
============================
With metta,
Howard


Impermanence

/Thus is how ye shall see all this  fleeting world: A star at dawn, a
bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a  summer cloud, a flickering lamp,
a
phantom and a dream/

(From the Diamond  Sutra)




#104891 	From: "scottduncan2" <scduncan@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 7:51 am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	scottduncan2
  	

Dear Nina,

Regarding:

N: "...I am very sad, just heard today that my brother (71 years) had died...I
remember him as a baby, just born, and I was seven years old. Just as if it was
yesterday..."

Scott: Courage, Nina.

Sincerely,

Scott.



#104892 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 8:03 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear Nina

AS does not like people to think about being very sad about death, why?? Because
it is not helpful.? It furthers strengthe the akusala accumulations.? Discharing
of emotions is only good for pyschology or counselling but it is detrimental to
development because it arouse unarisen aksuala to arise.

Sadness is caused?by?accumulations.? It is easy to said it is just accumulations
but hard if one is in the position.? In reality, only understand it as a reality
could one be truly get over this incident.? To some I may sound very
unsympathetic.? Honestly, it is just a reality, just condition by
accumulations.? Dont immerse in aksuala, it only condition more.?? On the other
hand, dont blame oneself if one is sad, because of accumulation one cant help
it.? Understand reality as it comes,?develop panna, because panna is patient and
courageous to all?realities.? Panna is the one that frees one from?all pain and
cycles.


With metta
Ken O?




#104893 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 10:32 am
Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 	truth_aerator
  	

Hello Jon, KenO, all,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Alex
>
> (104869)
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@>
wrote:
> >
> > "If he recites many teachings, but ?" heedless man ?" doesn't do what they
say, like a cowherd counting the cattle of others, he has no share in the
contemplative life.
> >
> > If he recites next to nothing but follows the Dhamma in line with the
Dhamma; abandoning passion, aversion, delusion; alert, his mind well-released,
not clinging either here or hereafter:
> > he has his share in the contemplative life."
> >
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.than.html#dhp-19
> >
> > Alternative translation:
> > 19. Much though he recites the sacred texts, but acts not accordingly, that
heedless man is like a cowherd who only counts the cows of others ?" he does
not partake of the blessings of the holy life.
> >
> > 20. Little though he recites the sacred texts, but puts the Teaching into
practice, forsaking lust, hatred, and delusion, with true wisdom and emancipated
mind, clinging to nothing of this or any other world ?" he indeed partakes of
the blessings of a holy life.
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.budd.html
> >
> >
> > Study and practice here are different! One can study a lot but don't
practice. One can study a little but practice a lot. This tells us that these
are different things. Furthermore it is putting teaching into practice, not
study, is important.
> >
> > So how do you interpret Dhp 19-20?
> > ===============
>
> I interpret these verses as saying that reading/reciting/'studying' >the texts
should not be equated with pariyatti (an understanding of >the texts at an
intellectual level).

You mean patipada (practice) not pariyatti (study).
"I interpret these verses as saying that reading/reciting/'studying' the texts
should not be equated with *patipada or pativedha* ."

Then how does one patipada?


Can you or someone else *clearly* explain and differentiate
pariyatti
Patipada
Pativedha


With metta,

Alex



#104894 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 11:32 am
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	moellerdieter
  	

Hi Chuck ,

you wrote:


1. Please forgive the delay in answering.
2. Please forgive my dullness. I simply do not understand your comments'
relevance to my comment repeated below:

  (D: [Name deleted] this list is stated to be a Theravada ( Teaching of the
Elders) Buddhist list , i.e. its base is the Pali Canon.. and the decision
whether true or false Dhamma depends on what has been said and what not
according to the Tipitaka.. )
> C: FWIW, over the many years since joining in 2001, I strongly felt the same.
Far, far too, too many incidences have I felt I was at a M&#257;dhyamikas Buddha
list; rather, than at a Theravadin Buddha list!!!
D: well, .... until proven wrong/false in respect to the Canon ..
  Besides the grand references mentioned in the Maha Parinibbana Sutta, the
Buddha declared the appearance of the 8fold Noble Path crucial
  in each teaching for any possibility of nobility..the 4 states of holiness.)
:

D: you suspect -when I understand you correctly- a Madhyamika 'tendency' of the
list .
Well,as I see it  the Theravada nature can be distinguished from other schools
by above mentioned .. but that should not hinder you to state
your reasons.. perhaps below from Buddhanet  may be of help (?):
It is generally accepted, that what we know today as the Mahayana arose from the
Mahasanghikas sect who were the earliest seceders, and the forerunners of the
Mahayana. They took up the cause of their new sect with zeal and enthusiasm and
in a few decades grew remarkably in power and popularity. They adapted the
existing monastic rules and thus revolutionised the Buddhist Order of Monks.
Moreover, they made alterations in the arrangements and interpretation of the
Sutra (Discourses) and the Vinaya (Rules) texts. And they rejected certain
portions of the canon which had been accepted in the First Council.

According to it, the Buddhas are lokottara (supramundane) and are connected only
externally with the worldly life. This conception of the Buddha contributed much
to the growth of the Mahayana philosophy.

Mahayana Buddhism is divided into two systems of thought: the Madhyamika and the
Yogacara. The Madhyamikas were so called on account of the emphasis they laid on
the middle view. Here, the middle path, stands for the non-acceptance of the two
views concerning existence and nonexistence, eternity and non eternity, self and
non-self. In short, it advocates neither the theory of reality nor that of the
unreality of the world, but merely of relativity. It is, however, to be noted
that the Middle Path propounded at Sarnath by the Buddha had an ethical meaning,
while that of the Madhyamikas is a metaphysical concept.

The Yogacara School is another important branch of the Mahayana. It was so
called because it emphasised the practice of yoga (meditation) as the most
effective method for the attainment of the highest truth (Bodhi). All the ten
stages of spiritual progress of Bodhisattvahood have to be passed through before
Bodhi can be attained. The ideal of the Mahayana school, therefore, is that of
the Bodhisattva, a person who delays his or her own enlightenment in order to
compassionately assist all other beings and ultimately attains to the highest
Bodhi.


unquote

with Metta Dieter





Chuck  ,  the relevance was to make it easier for you to decide on the nature of
the list ..



Reply | Messages in this Topic (99)
#104895 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 11:45 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	nilovg
  	

Hi Howard, Scott, Ken O, thanks for your kind words and advice.
Nina.
Op 3-feb-2010, om 16:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:

> I'm so sorry, Nina! What a sad loss, and at far too young an age. I'm
> grateful, though, that your trust in the Dhamma and your
> understanding of
> it can help you through this.





#104896 	From: "colette" <ksheri3@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 11:03 am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	ksheri3
  	

Hi Ken O,

I like how you equated "saddness" to development on the path.

THEORY:

Aren't we, when we exude this negative emotion of sadness, aren't we then
attaching that sadness and that pain and that negativity to a person, to a
thing, etc, which, THEN, does as you theorize, retarding that individual's
progress toward ENLIGHTENMENT and the cessation of suffering?

We do have an effect of THE DEAD and THE DEAD have effects on us, no? Isn't this
a perfect example of the meaning of TRANSCENDENCE? How can DEATH transcend and
impune upon our lives when DEATH is not real? Death is as illusionary as life
is, no? They are the same coin, no?

Sure, I can undestand Nina's pain, at this moment, and I sympathize w/ her
however, I have been pondering that one of my best friends in the Buddhist
community has begun a three year retreat and so I won't get much interaction w/
him if any interaction. Isn't that, the loss, of one of the few friends I have,
similar to a DEATH? I found many high school friends on FAcebook, and after
thirty years I felt overjoyed to speak w/ people that have the same
consciousness as myself, toward an aspect of existance that they participated in
w/ me. Since finding them I do not have time to dwell on doing all the work for
them when they have no use in their illusionary lives for me and my illusionary
life, so, isn't this just another death I might suffer if I could find some
reason to be attached to them? They were not there originally so how can they be
there or here NOW? The Present Dharma cannot exist w/o the Past Dharma
conditioning it.

Best Wishes Nina.

Thanx Ken O.

toodles,
colette

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Nina
>
> AS does not like people to think about being very sad about death, why??
Because it is not helpful.? It furthers strengthe the akusala accumulations.?
Discharing of emotions is only good for pyschology or counselling but it is
detrimental to development because it arouse unarisen aksuala to arise.
>
> Sadness is caused?by?accumulations.? It is easy to said it is just
accumulations but hard if one is in the position.? In reality, only understand
it as a reality could one be truly get over this incident.? To some I may sound
very unsympathetic.? Honestly, it is just a reality, just condition by
accumulations.? Dont immerse in aksuala, it only condition more.?? On the other
hand, dont blame oneself if one is sad, because of accumulation one cant help
it.? Understand reality as it comes,?develop panna, because panna is patient and
courageous to all?realities.? Panna is the one that frees one from?all pain and
cycles.
>
>
> With metta
> Ken O?
>
>



#104897 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 12:11 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	nilovg
  	

Dear Fabian,
Op 2-feb-2010, om 17:45 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven:

> One Bhikkhu from Srilanka told me In the first council abhidhamma
> (except kathavattu which added later during 3rd council)was
> acctually included in the Sutta among Khudaka Nikaya group and
> together was called Dhamma, so in the first council only Dhamma and
> vinaya exist. later Dhamma books are divided, six groups (not yet
> books) in Kuddhaka Nikaya are separated into another basket and
> they name it Abhidhamma, while the rest of Dhamma groups they call
> it sutta.
> What do you think of this?
---------
N: The contents of the abhidhamma were classified in different ways.
In the Expositor, Introductory Discourse (p. 32):<Which is the
Khuddaka NIkaaya? The whole of the Vinaya-Pi.taka, abhidhamma-
Pi.taka, and the fifteen divisiona, as shown above,- beginning with
Khuddakapaatha...>
I quote an old post by Sarah about a classification of the Tipi.taka:
   Sarah:
  >...Atthasaalinii, Introductory Discourse (PTS transl.)

"Which are the 'nine parts'? The entire Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na,
Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta, Vedalla.

"Herein, the dual Sutta-Vibha"nga, the Niddesa, the Khadhakas, and
Parivaara, the Ma"ngalasutta, Ratanasutta, Naalakasutta,
Tuva.takasutta of
the Sutta-Nipaata, and any other words of the Tathaagata bearing the
name
of Sutta should be regarded as Sutta.

"All the Suttas with verses should be understood as Geyya. In
particular,
all the chapters with verses in the Sa.myutta-Nikaaya form Geyya.

"The entire Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, Suttas without verses and any other
words
of the Buddha not included in the eight parts should be understood as
Veyyaakara.na, or exposition.

"Dhammapada, Theragaathaa, Theriigaathaa, those pieces in the
Sutta-Nipaata not called Sutta, and entirely in verse should be known as
Gaathaa.

"Eighty-two Suttantas connected with verses due to knowledge and joy
should be understood as Udaana.

"One hundred and twelve Suttantas taught in this wise: 'Thus was it said
by the Blessed One,' etc., should be understood as Itivuttaka....

"Five hundred and fifty birth-stories beginning with Apa.n.naka
constitute
the Jaataka.

"All Suttantas connected with wonderful and the marvellous things spoken
in this wise: 'There are, bhikkhus, four wonderful and marvellous things
in Ananda,' should be understood as Abbhuta.

"All Suttantas in the form of questions asked through repeated
attainment
of delight and understanding, such as the Suttas: Cullavedalla,
Mahaavedalla.....etc., should be understood as Vedalla. Such are the
nine
parts."<
*****
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/58533
5) Sarah:
  >...the 'Alagadduupama Sutta'. The simile of the snake starts with
these lines (Nanamoli/Bodhi translation).

"Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma - discourses,
stanzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories,
marvels, and answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma,
they do
not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom."

So what is included here within the Dhamma are (from the Pali):
"sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, gatha, udana, itivuttaka, jataka,
abbhutadhamma, and vedalla."

All the Pitakas are included in the 9 angas
as clarified in the point above.<
(end quote)
------
When explaining the Abhidhamma I rather speak about the contents,
what is in it. People may only think of books and become confused,
wondering, what is the Buddha word. The Buddha taught paramattha
dhammas: citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbaana.
Kh Sujin wrote in her book Survey of Paramattha Dhammas:
<Thus, citta paramattha is the dhamma which experiences colour, sound
or other objects. These paramattha dhammas, which are real, are
?abhidhamma? , non-self, beyond control, dependending on the
appropriate conditions. Even if a Buddha had not been born and
discovered the truth, dhammas arise and fall away because of their
own conditions and their own true nature. >

Do you notice the use of the word Abhidhamma here? Everything that is
real in the ultimate sense is abhidhamma.
We read furher on: <Paramattha dhamma or abidhamma is not a dhamma
which is beyond one?s ability to understand because paramattha dhamma
is reality. Right view, right understanding, is actually knowing the
characteristics of paramattha dhammas as they really are.>
Abhidhamma can be verified in our daily life. We should not think of
a textbook with theories.

*****
Nina.





#104898 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 12:14 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	moellerdieter
  	

Hi Colette (and Charlest),

you wrote:
As we said in the Navy: "DAMNED TO BAD LUCK", I differ, FURTHER COMMENT IS
REQUIRED
Dieter, there is a purpose for abstaining from "harsh speach". Just as there is
a purpose for abstaining THEN there is a purpose for using harsh speach.
While it may be natural for Charlest to abuse his label as a spurious Texican w/
unussual characteristics of speach the probability that he speaks like that is
just a normal characteristic of normal speach within a large portion of the
society. I might even be so bold as to take credit for offering the ability for
people like Charlest to actually speak in this forum since my use of language is
rather resque at times and it takes me a lot of effort to refrain from writing
as I speak.
Sure, I agree that my technique is not advisable for 99% of the practitioners to
use but to allow this MISS CONCEPTION OF THE NATURE OF PURITY to be waltzed
before my very eyes and think that it will not be used in the future to entrap
myself is PURE INSANITY.


D: Colette , in the Navy there may be a purpose for using harsh speech, not so
sure about the benefit 'within large portion of society '..
but  for us students of the Buddha Dhamma it is an issue of the  sila training,
i.e. akusala ..  to be avoided ..therefore I quoted  the sutta wording  .. and
that not without  a  ;-))

  Shouldn't we try  to be nice and kind to eachother and be careful that anger
doesn't arise ..?

with Metta Dieter





#104899 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 12:17 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	nilovg
  	

Dear Colette (and Ken O),
I like your kind letter, thank you. Separation is also a kind of
death as you indicate. And what is more: sadness is conditioned by
lobha. It is selfishness that conditions it. However, when sadness
arises we do not deny it, we do not pretend to be above it, or to be
like non-returners who have eradicated it.
Nina.

Op 3-feb-2010, om 20:03 heeft colette het volgende geschreven:

> Sure, I can undestand Nina's pain, at this moment, and I sympathize
> w/ her however, I have been pondering that one of my best friends
> in the Buddhist community has begun a three year retreat and so I
> won't get much interaction w/ him if any interaction. Isn't that,
> the loss, of one of the few friends I have, similar to a DEATH? I
> found many high school friends on FAcebook, and after thirty years
> I felt overjoyed to speak w/ people that have the same
> consciousness as myself, toward an aspect of existance that they
> participated in w/ me. Since finding them I do not have time to
> dwell on doing all the work for them when they have no use in their
> illusionary lives for me and my illusionary life, so, isn't this
> just another death I might suffer if I could find some reason to be
> attached to them? They were not there originally so how can they be
> there or here NOW? The Present Dharma cannot exist w/o the Past
> Dharma conditioning it.





#104900 	From: "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 2:15 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	kenhowardau
  	

Hi Ken O,

------
<. . .>
KO: You remind of a story just like a mother who tell off his son and then said
the son to be hit by a bull, but inside her heart she does not even wish a leaf
to fall onto the son.? You are?similar to?the mother.?
------

Thanks for casting me in a good light, I am sure I don't deserve it. :-)

You and I have already discussed right/wrong speech on the subject of formal
vipassana practice. We clearly disagree. I say we should warn people against it
in the best way we can, even if that way is not very nice.

Imagine, for example, that you were warning a group of children not to swim in
the river because there were crocodiles there. If they replied, "Dad said it
would be all right," what would you say then? Would you keep quiet? Or would you
continue warning them at the risk of insulting a respected parent?

Let's be honest; wrong view is much more dangerous than a crocodile. Let's warn
each other against it as best we can, when we can, and worry about the social
niceties later. :-)

Ken H



#104901 	From: "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 2:47 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	kenhowardau
  	

Hi Mike,

---------
<. . .>
I would be interested to hear which teachers you (or anyone else) consider to
not be "conventional"? I am having great difficulty thinking of any teachers who
you would actually approve of. It appears to me that you would rule out Ajahn
Chah and all of his students, Mahasi Sayadaw and U Pandita and all of their
students, Ven Nyanatiloka and his direct and indirect students such as Bhikkhu
Bodhi...
---------

I am not trying to duck the question, but I genuinely don't know much about the
various respected Buddhist teachers. Occasionally someone has explained to me
who some particular monks were and where they stood on the important issues. But
I soon forget, and their names become mixed up again.

Basically, as you will have guessed, I have the most respect for Ajahn Sujin. I
know there are other teachers (monks and non-monks) who explain the Dhamma the
same way she does, but I don't know their names. I am fairly sure (but not
certain) that they all acquired their right understanding from A Sujin.

Ken H



#104902 	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu.samahita@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 2:50 pm
Subject: The Prison of Pride! 	bhikkhu.sama...
  	

Friends:

The Catastrophic Conceit  "I Am":


All the egoism is born right when assuming the impersonal and transient
phenomena, such as body, feeling, perception, mental construction, and
consciousness to be "I-Me-Mine", thereby conceiving the idea: "I am"!
At once hereafter one falls desperately in love with this hypothetical
ego, exalts, gratifies and even worships it, as the most dear possession
of all... Pride is born right here! By comparing this non-existent entity:
"My Personal Identity" with external equally conceived perceptions, one
erroneously concludes: "I am better than ..." There arrogance is born...
Or one concludes equally erroneously: "I am worse than or equal to ..."
When there is pride, there is bound to be wounded pride! Because of that
"I-Me"-construing, ego-love and self-overestimation, one cannot respect
what should be respected. Feeling threatened by any realistic evaluation
of this adored "Ego", all potential "critics" or "competitors" are violently
repressed... By clinging to this cherished idea of "Myself", harming, hate,
ill-will, and violence thereby come into being. Even wars are initiated by
immature & infantile imagination of "Own Greatness" or "National Lead"!
Thus more than fatal is verily this cramped conceit: "I Am this and that"!
Serene Joy is however connected with open, and detached impersonality.
If there is no "I", no "Me", what then to be proud of, or violently defend?




As the blessed Buddha said:
Blissful is the overcoming of all sense-desire.
More blissful is dwelling in complete harmlessness.
Even more blissful is solitude for one content and learned.
But highest is the bliss of uprooting this deepest conceit: "I am"!
Udana <http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/index.html>
? Inspiration: II ? 1



Frequent reflection on the impermanent and transient flux of all internal
and external phenomena, leads towards this counter-intuitive, yet crucial
comprehension of the fact of No-Self=Anatta. Absolutely freeing is that...

Sabbe Dhamma Anatta ...
All States are Selfless!!!

More on Anti-Egoism: Be as humble as a doormat:
  <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Pride.htm>
<. . .>

Have a nice & noble day!


Friendship is the Greatest!
  <http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhikkhu_Samahita> Bhikkhu
Samahita _/\_ Sri
<http://what-buddha-said.net/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemI
d=2053>  Lanka *
http://What-Buddha-Said.net <http://what-buddha-said.net/>

The Prison of Pride!





#104903 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 3:45 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	truth_aerator
  	

>dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...> >wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> ---------
> <. . .>
> I would be interested to hear which teachers you (or anyone else) consider to
not be "conventional"? I am having great difficulty thinking of any teachers who
you would actually approve of. It appears to me that you would rule out Ajahn
Chah and all of his students, Mahasi Sayadaw and U Pandita and all of their
students, Ven Nyanatiloka and his direct and indirect students such as Bhikkhu
Bodhi...
> ---------
>
> I am not trying to duck the question, but I genuinely don't know much about
the various respected Buddhist teachers. Occasionally someone has explained to
me who some particular monks were and where they stood on the important issues.
But I soon forget, and their names become mixed up again.
>
> Basically, as you will have guessed, I have the most respect for Ajahn Sujin.
I know there are other teachers (monks and non-monks) who explain the Dhamma the
same way she does, but I don't know their names. I am fairly sure (but not
certain) that they all acquired their right understanding from A Sujin.
>
> Ken H
>


Hello KenH, Mike, all

KenH, so what you are saying between the lines is:

"I don't know much about other teachers, but only A Sujin has right
understanding, and all those teacher who do have right understanding have
acquired it from her."

In other words: she is correct and only those who teach what she teachers are
right.


<no comments, mate>

With metta,

Alex



#104904 	From: "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 4:29 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	kenhowardau
  	

Hi Alex,

-------
<. . .>
> In other words: she is correct and only those who teach what she teachers are
right.
-------

You tell me, Alex: is there only one Dhamma, or are there many Dhammas?  How
many are there? An infinite number? Can a person just make up his own Dhamma and
call himself a Buddhist teacher?


Bhikkhu Thanissaro (for example) teaches that anatta does not mean no self. He
says there is a self, and he argues that there could be no kamma and vipakka
(etc) if there were no self (How could anyone receive the fruits of his actions
if there were no "one" to receive them?).

So what do you say about that, Alex? And be careful, people are listening. :-)

Ken H



#104905 	From: Vince <cerovzt@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 5:01 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] terms and realities. 	cerovzt@...
  	

Dear Ken

you wrote:

> KO:  Yes there is external rupa and inner rupa.  Inner rupa is the
> subtle rupa like eye sense.  External rupa is the colour that
> impinge on the internal rupa - eyes sense.      External rupa do
> exist like rock as I mentioned earlier.  The colour of the rock
> (external rupa) is what seen by seeing citta through the eye sense
> (internal rupa) which acts as the door way and base.  It is
> difficult to see the subtle difference between external and
> internal, the importance is the experience of the moment, the
> understanding of the sense reality at that moment.

oh, ok. I thought you was talking in other sense, regarding -self.
I have never observed the practice in the way you explain.

Anyway I wonder about some things; thanks for your explanations.


> KO:  Yes definite the temperature cannot exist by itself, it is
> also conditioned.  What we are saying is that it is the main cause
> for the external rupa just like kamma is the main cause of rebirth.

of course; in that point we are in agreement.
But where I point is, What is conditionality?.

We say kamma is the condition for consciousness but we know kamma is
not a dhamma; it is just understanding, a law. Kamma then it's a
conventional truth. Kamma formations are sustained by ignorance.
What is the condition of ignorance?.

"And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the
cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of
ignorance? Not knowing about dukkha, not knowing about the origin of
dukkha, not knowing about the cessation of dukkha, not knowing about
the way leading to the cessation of dukkha — this is called
ignorance."
MN 9 - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca2/avijja.html

my point is: by understanding conditionality we follow the way to be
free of dukkha, and by ignoring conditionality there is dukkha.
Conditionality then, is a key matter:

"From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death. Whether or
not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this
regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this
this/that conditionality. "
[...]
"Ignorance is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon: inconstant,
compounded, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to
passing away, subject to fading, subject to cessation."
SN 12.20  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.020.than.html

so I agree the understanding of the real nature of phenomena in front
concepts is the way to see the conditionality and co-arising
in any conceivable. However, I think also we need to point to the
nature of that conditionality, because:

"... Contact is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...
"The six sense media are dependently co-arisen phenomena...
"Name-&-form is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...
"Consciousness is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...
"Fabrications are dependently co-arisen phenomena...
SN 12.20  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.020.than.html


> KO:   the outer and inner is not important.  Also it does not
> matter where it arise and where it goes, as they are not helping in
> our direct understanding of the reality.     It is the unwholesome
> mental factors or cetasikas like lobha or lust that is the
> importance, that we should understand as it arise or understand the
> reality of these cetasikas.  Using the sutta you quote,

> “Not so, friend Koììhika. The eye is not the bond of objects, nor are
> objects the bond of the eye, but that desire and lust that arise owing
> to these two. That is the bond. And so with the tongue and the
> mind… it is the desire and lust that arise owing to savours and
> tongue, mind-objects and mind.

and I agree. In this case the bond is lust, and there are many other
type of bonds.
But the point is: What is the bond?.


> KO:  Lust is the attayana she is talking about and not about an
> ambit.  The lust with wrong view that create this illusion of self.

I don't understand in that way. Lust don't cause self. Attachment to
what becomes here and now is causing lust, and when we find pleasure
in lust, it is what feed the self. From here there is dukkha, because
when what is becoming and causing lust comes to an end, also there
is a cease of lust. And then also our pleasant state in lust.
Due there is not a cease of our attachment to what is no more here and
now, so in that way we are deceived, sad, angry or whatever.

Then I understand attayana cannot be still lust. Attayana only can be
a field conformed when we ignore the co-arising of consciousness and
nama&rupa. Bond between both is conditionality, and from this
conditionality there is attayana.

Well, this is how I understand. Although of course I'm not sure.
If you know more places citing the nature of attayana is cited, it
will be good to know.

> Rather the bond is the result of the coming together of the
> eye and objects with the arisen of lust.

but if we put in a table one eye in front some object, there is not
lust, there is not bond.
What it's so?.



Vince,




#104906 	From: Vince <cerovzt@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 3:46 pm
Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	cerovzt@...
  	

Dear Nina

you wrote:
> I am very sad, just heard today that my brother (71 years) had died.
> He lives in the South of France and we have to go there for the
> cremation. It helps though to remember: Just like now: each citta
> dies at each moment. What do I expect? Countless lives of birth and
> death. I remember him as a baby, just born, and I was seven years
> old. Just as if it was yesterday.

I'm sorry Nina for that loss. Hope you can be well keeping confidence
in Dhamma.


this is a Sutta adaptation from "The Gospel of Buddha" of Paul Carus:

"Not from weeping nor from grieving will any one obtain
peace of mind; on the contrary, his pain will be the greater and his
body will suffer. He will make himself sick and pale, yet the dead
are not saved by his lamentation. People pass away, and their fate
after death will be according to their deeds. If a man live a hundred
years, or even more, he will at last be separated from the company
of his relatives, and leave the life of this world. He who seeks peace
should draw out the arrow of lamentation, and complaint, and grief.
He who has drawn out the arrow and has become composed will
obtain peace of mind; he who has overcome all sorrow will become
free from sorrow, and be blessed."


Vince,


#104907 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 5:24 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	truth_aerator
  	

Hello KenH, all,

> "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Alex,
>
> -------
> <. . .>
> > In other words: she is correct and only those who teach what she teachers
are right.
> -------
>
> You tell me, Alex: is there only one Dhamma,

There is One collection of Teaching of the Buddha.

>Can a person just make up his own Dhamma and call himself a Buddhist >teacher?

If what that person says does not accord with the suttas, then that teacher is
not teaching Dhamma.


>
>
> Bhikkhu Thanissaro (for example) teaches that anatta does not mean >no self.
He says there is a self,

Where? I've seen him deny self, I haven't seen him to affirm it anywhere.

FYI, "I have no self" is inappropriate reflection.

""As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in
him: The view I have a self arises in him as true &  established, or the view I
have no self... "

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of
stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the
cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are
abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. "
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html

Note: The 4th Noble truth contains N8P.
N8P contains samma-samadhi. [1]
Samma-samadhi contains 4 Jhanas. [2]


>and he argues that there could be no kamma and vipakka (etc) if >there were no
self (How could anyone receive the fruits of his >actions if there were no "one"
to receive them?).
> Ken H

Where? Direct link and quote, please, so we could see what exactly he said and
in what context.



======
[1]
"And what, friends, is the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the
cessation of stress? Just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right
resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right
mindfulness, right concentration..."

[2]
...And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk ? quite
withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental)  qualities ?
enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal,
accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed
thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture &
pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought
& evaluation ? internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains
equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters &
remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous &
mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain ? as
with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress ? he enters & remains in
the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain.
This is called right concentration.

"This is called the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation
of stress.
======

276. You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way. Those
meditative ones who tread the path are released from the bonds of Mara.

282. Wisdom springs from meditation; without meditation wisdom wanes. Having
known these two paths of progress and decline, let a man so conduct himself that
his wisdom may increase.

371. Meditate, O monk! Do not be heedless. Let not your mind whirl on sensual
pleasures. Heedless, do not swallow a red-hot iron ball, lest you cry when
burning, "O this is painful!"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.budd.html

If, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain covetous, with thoughts of
ill will, overcome by sloth & drowsiness, restless, uncertain, angry, with
soiled thoughts, with my body aroused, lazy, or unconcentrated,' then he should
put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, &
alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just
as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire,
effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the
fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra
desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the
abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.051.than.html#turban



With metta,

Alex



#104908 	From: "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 6:03 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	kenhowardau
  	

Hi Alex,

I knew this would happen! :-)  I and others have been over it so many times
before. On most occasions, you have played a central role in the discussions.
But you always seem to forget.

You can find extracts in the Useful Posts file. Take no notice of what I say,
but take notice of what knowledgeable people (Ven Dhammanando among others) say.

I hope Ven Dhammanando won't mind if I reprint his post #79156:

<quote>
"Hi Elaine,

If you don't mind I would prefer to keep my contributions to the thread
impersonal. I'm not at all interested in discussing whether Thanissaro
is a goodie or a baddie, but would rather focus on the question of
whether the "strategic" interpretation of anatta is in accordance with
the Dhamma. That this interpretation happens to originate with
Thanissaro is of no especial importance, given that it's now being
voiced by all sorts of people.

> If a person uses this "anatta strategy" to realize the real anatta, is
> it still wrong?

The question that needs to be addressed is *can* anatta be realized by
the "anatta strategy"? If this strategy consists in a wrong view of
anatta, then the answer is no.

> Are you doubting/accusing Ajahn Thanissaro of having wrong-view of
> Anatta?

It does seem to be the case.

> Have you written an e-mail to Wat Metta to inform Ajahn about it?

Whatever for? The ajahn is perfectly aware that his take on anatta is
not the Theravadin one. He cites the Theravadin view in his "Not Self"
essay, asserts that it's not in accordance with the Suttas, and then
opposes it with a novel interpretation of his own.

> Moreover, Ajahn Thanissaro is a reputable monk.

There are thousands of reputable monks. But since not all of them agree
on the fundamentals of Dhamma, at least some of them must be in error.
So again, it's better to keep the discussion impersonal:

"Suppose a bhikkhu were to say: 'In such and such a place there is a
sangha with elders and reputable teachers. I have heard and received
this from that sangha,' then, bhikkhus, you should neither approve nor
disapprove his words. Then, without approving or disapproving, his
words and expressions should be carefully noted and compared with the
Suttas and reviewed in the light of the discipline. If they, on such
comparison and review, are found not to conform to the Suttas or the
discipline, the conclusion must be: 'Assuredly this is not the word of
the Buddha, it has been wrongly understood by this bhikkhu,' and the
matter is to be rejected. But where on such comparison and review they
are found to conform to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion
must be: 'Assuredly this is the word of the Buddha, it has been rightly
understood by this bhikkhu.' "
(Mahaparinibbana Sutta)

Best wishes,
Dhammanando"

<end quote>

Ken H



#104909 	From: "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 6:21 pm
Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 	jonoabb
  	

Hi Alex

(104893)
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
wrote:
>
> > I interpret these verses as saying that reading/reciting/'studying' >the
texts should not be equated with pariyatti (an understanding of >the texts at an
intellectual level).
>
> You mean patipada (practice) not pariyatti (study).
> "I interpret these verses as saying that reading/reciting/'studying' the texts
should not be equated with *patipada or pativedha* ."
> ===============

Actually, I meant pariyatti ;-)).  Of course, reading the texts is not
patipatti, but it's not necessarily pariyatti either.  As we've discussed
before, a person who reads the texts believing that by doing so he is improving
his chances of having awareness at the time would be in exactly the same
position as a person doing any other conventional act with the same idea.

> ===============
> Can you or someone else *clearly* explain and differentiate
> pariyatti
> Patipada
> Pativedha
> ===============

These 3 terms all refer to panna of the kind associated with
satipatthana/insight development.

Pariyatti means the correct intellectual understanding of the matters necessary
for satipatthana.  Matters such as, for example, what is meant by the term
'dhammas' as used by the Buddha, their characteristics, how they differ from
concepts, what can be the object of awareness, the significance of the fact of
dhammas (including dhammas such as sati and viriya) being 'not-self', and so on.

Patipatti means any moment of direct awareness of a dhamma.  If there occur
naturally moments of awareness of, for example, currently arising visible object
as just visible object (as distinct from seeing consciousness), this would be
patipadaa.

Pativedha is the realization of the various stages of insight knowledge or
enlightenment.

Pariyatti supports and leads to patipatti.  Patipatti in turn supports and leads
to pariyatti that will support further patipatti.

Patipatti also supports and leads to pativedha, etc.

Hoping this is clear.

Jon



#104910 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 6:38 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	truth_aerator
  	

Hi KenH, all,

>"kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:
> Hi Alex,
> You can find extracts in the Useful Posts file.

I allow you to reprint specific arguments.


> > If a person uses this "anatta strategy" to realize the real >anatta, is it
still wrong? The question that needs to be addressed >is *can* anatta be
realized by
> the "anatta strategy"? If this strategy consists in a wrong view of
> anatta, then the answer is no.


Anatta is a strategy as all the Dhamma is (see a parable of the raft).
It is to remove all clinging to phenomena and clinging to Atta (which ultimately
doesn't exist).

Anatta is not a static and "dead" belief (there are dime a dozen of beliefs). It
is to be used as part of N8P, as a raft, to cessation of self identification and
all the kilesas.


Remember, there must be Right view about right views.

I really like SN24, AN10.93 and other relevant suttas that speak on
samma-ditthi. The right view LEADS to right actions and cessation of tanha. It
is not "a book to be read". Because you can't satisfy thirst by reading about
water, and you can't satisfy hunger by reading the menu!


As I understand it here are some main points on views.

1) All views are based on 5 aggregates.
2) One thinks the view using his own mind (4 aggregates) and/or with the help of
other teacher's opinions (other 5 aggregates).

3) The aggregates are anicca (inconstant, conditioned, dependently arisen,
uncertain, subject to become otherwise) and as such Dukkha (stressful). What is
stressful is not self. Views are anatta, meaning that they cannot be permanently
possesed by anyone or any particular thing. No matter what view one may hold, it
will eventually
change, even to its opposite. Either one will attain a different view (when
different facts and ideas become known) , one forgets the view, or one may
realize the impermanence and uncertainty of dogmatically clinging to any views
and ultimately becomes dispassionate for every view. Holding any view is a
attachment to *that* particular view, no matter how right it is.

4) By removing all desire, adherence, etc, to these 5 aggregates, the
speculative view ceases. Ultimately after giving up speculative views even this
"view" is not disired, or adhered to.

5) N8P is like an improvised and fabricated raft to Nibbana, not to be
dogmatically clung to with wrong views. (MN22, SN35.197)

In other words there must be right view about right view.


6) A good insight practice is found at MN152 that is relevant to abandoning
clinging to all views.


===
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.093.than.html#anatha


====================================
"In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the
purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the
Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say
nothing of non-Dhammas.""
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html
===
"Then the man ? afraid of the four vipers of utmost heat & horrible venom,
afraid of the five enemy executioners, afraid of the sixth fellow-traveling
executioner with upraised sword, afraid of the village-plundering bandits ?
would flee this way or that. He would see a great expanse of water, with the
near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with
neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. The thought
would occur to him, 'Here is this great expanse of water, with the near shore
dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a
ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. What if I were to
gather grass, twigs, branches, & leaves and, having bound them together to make
a raft, were to cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the
raft, making an effort with my hands & feet?' Then the man, having gathered
grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft,
would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making
an effort with his hands & feet. Crossed over, having gone to the other shore,
he would stand on high ground, a brahman.

"'The great expanse of water' stands for the fourfold flood: the flood of
sensuality, the flood of becoming, the flood of views, & the flood of ignorance.
'The near shore, dubious & risky' stands for self-dentification. 'The further
shore, secure and free from risk' stands for Unbinding. 'The raft' stands for
just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right
action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
'Making an effort with hands & feet' stands for the arousing of persistence.
'Crossed over, having gone to the other shore, he would stand on high ground, a
brahman' stands for the arahant."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.197.than.html
================

I really like the
"'The raft' stands for just this noble eightfold path:"
and

"Making an effort with hands & feet' stands for the arousing of persistence. "

The simile doesn't imply that one "reads the menu" or simply studies what
someone else has seen. Dhamma is to be USED like a raft. It is not to be
worshiped or intellectually studied. It implies using improvise vehicle (a raft,
a means by which to cross the sea" WITH active effort.



With metta,

Alex



#104911 	From: "colette" <ksheri3@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 3:24 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	ksheri3
  	

Hi Dieter,

I am flooded w/ stuff that I want to say, that I most certainly can say, but I
do not have the time to even begin to open the vastness of what I'm thinking.
<...>
--------------------------------------------------------------
>  Shouldn't we try  to be nice and kind to eachother and be careful that anger
doesn't arise ..?
>

colette: you are walking along. You see a person bleeding profusely and you know
that this person will bleed to death eventually. As I said, you were/are just
passing by, as if you were a driver in a car and you see several accidents in a
town but because you are on your way home and do not want to have you name
listed as being a witness to the carnage/carnal knowledge you pass them buy and
play stupid, but this person is bleeding to death and you happen upon them in
your travels. What are you going to do: try to relieve suffering or prolong
suffering? How is this person to view you if you smile at them say "HI, you seem
to be in great pain but that's not my problem, see ya later" How is KARMA
supposed to view your SUBURBANITE ATTITUDE AND ACTIONS? This certainly is the
act of a person desirous to PROLONG SUFFERING and I would be willing to place a
bet that if you are comfortable w/ PROLONGING SUFFERING then I bet you will be
VERY WILLING TO INFLICT SUFFERING.

I'm trying to be nice, didn't you say that "we try to be nice"?

<..>
Just what is NICE? Is TRUTH telling FALSEHOODS? Is Up Down? <...>

toodles,
colette

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
<...>
> D: Colette , in the Navy there may be a purpose for using harsh speech, not so
sure about the benefit 'within large portion of society '..
> but  for us students of the Buddha Dhamma it is an issue of the  sila
training, i.e. akusala ..  to be avoided ..therefore I quoted  the sutta wording
.. and that not without  a  ;-))
>
>  Shouldn't we try  to be nice and kind to eachother and be careful that anger
doesn't arise ..?
>
> with Metta Dieter



#104912 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 	truth_aerator
  	

Hello Jon, all,

>dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...> wrote:
> Hi Alex
> Actually, I meant pariyatti ;-)).  Of course, reading the texts is >not
patipatti, but it's not necessarily pariyatti either.  As we've >discussed
before, a person who reads the texts believing that by >doing so he is improving
his chances of having awareness at the time >would be in exactly the same
position as a person doing any other >conventional act with the same idea.

Thank you for your replies. Could you please explain in steps (1,2,3...) how to
study properly?




>
> > ===============
> > Can you or someone else *clearly* explain and differentiate
> > pariyatti
> > Patipada
> > Pativedha
> > ===============
>
> These 3 terms all refer to panna of the kind associated with
>satipatthana/insight development.

Of course. Personally I don't remember saying that wisdom is not important. But
how is this wisdom attained and what helps to attain it? Part of the path is
Samma-Samadhi, and Buddha frequently talked about anapanasati and other
"samatha" studies, even within the Satipatthana sutta.



>
>Pariyatti means the correct intellectual understanding of the >matters
necessary for satipatthana.  Matters such as, for example, >what is meant by the
term 'dhammas' as used by the Buddha, their >characteristics, how they differ
from concepts, what can be the >object of awareness, the significance of the
fact of dhammas >(including dhammas such as sati and viriya) being 'not-self',
and so >on.


In which sutta is the Buddha directly quoted talked about absolute ultimate
realities distinct from concepts (which do not exist) AND TO WHOM?



How does one properly understand and do anapanasati, corpse in 10 stages of
decay, 32 bodyparts instructions found in Satipatthana sutta?




Thank you very much for your reply,


With metta,

Alex




#104913 	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 7:23 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear Nina,

We're also very sorry to hear of your loss. Your brother was probably the person
you'd known longest in this life. I would also feel very sad if one of my
brothers died, especially my younger brother who I helped, as I'm sure you did,
when he was young.

I'm glad you had the get-together with him and his family not so long ago, and
that you're able to go to the cremation to give support to his wife and family.

As Scott, Ken O and others have reminded you, have courage. Remember the words
of the sister in the Uraga Jataka when her brother died -


>Sakka asked the sister:
"Lady, what was the dead man to you?"
"He was my brother, my lord."
"Lady, sisters surely are loving towards their brothers. Why do you not weep?"
But she to explain the reason why she did not weep, repeated a couple of
stanzas:
Though I should fast and weep, how would it profit me?
My kith and kin alas! Would more unhappy be.
No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead:
Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread.<
....

S: As K.Sujin would say, your dead brother has already been reborn - "He fares
the way he had to tread". When you give support to your family and reflect and
write on Dhamma, at such times there is no sadness.

We're not anagamis, so the sadness is bound to arise again and again because of
the accumulations to dwell on our own feelings, our own loss, our own
difficulties, but in between the reminders about the second dart, about seeing
and visible object at this moment, about vipaka, about sati now can all help a
lot. Moments of direct understanding are the most precious of all.

I was going to tell you that I'd been feeling a little sad recently too. A long
story, but we found that we and my mother had had items (mostly money) stolen
just before she left us and we left Hong Kong. It caused lots of problems for us
all. We had to dismiss a part-time helper, get the locks changed, arrange for a
new bank card in Australia and so on. Just as I was packing I found that even
some of my clothes had gone missing! Of course, we're fortunate that the damage
was not greater.

A tape I listened to on the flight over was helpful - reminders about having
metta and compassion to those who behave badly at the time, rather than later
when they experience the results of the deeds. Again, any sadness at the losses
or 'poor me' is so unhelpful. The problem always comes back to the accumulated
tendencies for lobha, dosa and moha. Jon told the helper she could keep the
money if she just gave us back the bank card which we needed here, but she kept
denying everything. Sometimes, it's just time for equanimity.

We never know what unexpected occurrences will come - these are the "tests" of
all we have heard and studied for so long. The worldly conditions, gain and loss
and so on --- in the end just moments of seeing, hearing followed by lots of
thinking about long, long stories.

Very best wishes to you and Lodewijk for your unexpected trip. Others will chip
in and help with replies here while you and we are travelling. Perhaps it will
encourage other old friends to come forward and assist too!


Metta

Sarah


--- On Wed, 3/2/10, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>I am very sad, just heard today that my brother (71 years) had died.
He lives in the South of France and we have to go there for the
cremation. It helps though to remember: Just like now: each citta
dies at each moment. What do I expect? Countless lives of birth and
death. I remember him as a baby, just born, and I was seven years
old. Just as if it was yesterday.

I just read about the length of lives of the Anaagaami who can attain
arahtship in a Brahma plane, being there half way, etc. Even when one
has become a sotaapanna it may still be aeons before reaching
arahatship. Truly this is a long, long time practice. No wonder it
takes us so long to develop just a little understanding, even now.

Sorry friends, the coming days I may not have much time to answer
Emails, but I try in between as best as I can.
=======


#104914 	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 7:45 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 16. 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear Nina & Han,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Han and friends,
>
> Here is the last section of part II. Han, in the Pali text there is a
> passage about killing not being manokamma used for an explanation I
> did not get, and therefore I omitted it. Perhaps you understand it?
....
S: I don't know if it's relevant but wondered if this note I gave before from
our last discussion in Bangkok might relate to the topic. Killing is not always
manokamma of course- it's a very complex issue, I find.

"S: It's nanakkhanika kamma paccaya, only when there's a result through mano,
vaci or kaya dvara. In the 5 sense-door processes, including the body-door
process, the javana cittas are mano kamma, but not kamma patha. The mano kamma
is accumulated, conditioned by natural decisive support condition. In the
mind-door processes,
whenever the javanas are not vaci- or kaya kamma, they are mano kamma.

It depends on the intentions, speech and actions as to whether it is kamma
patha. When it is kaya kamma, there must be kaya vinnatti, when it is vaci
kamma, there must be vaci vinnatti.

An animal killing another animal would be an example of kaya kamma through kaya
dvara. When the planning is stronger, it is mano kamma, rather than kaya kamma,
even if it is through kaya dvara. Ordering someone to kill would be mano kama,
leading to kayo kamma through vaci dvara!! Stepping on a mosquito deliberately
is kaya kamma.
Laying a trap is mano kamma. It must be either mano-, kaya- or vaci-kamma,
depending.

Killing is kamma patha. Rejoicing in killing is a supporting kamma only."

Perhaps Han can tell me if this relates to the text at all.
....
Metta

Sarah
=======


#104915 	From: "Mike" <mikenz66@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 7:49 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	mikenz66
  	

Hi Ken:

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> ---------
> <. . .>
> Mike I would be interested to hear which teachers you (or anyone else)
consider to not be "conventional"? I am having great difficulty thinking of any
teachers who you would actually approve of. It appears to me that you would rule
out Ajahn Chah and all of his students, Mahasi Sayadaw and U Pandita and all of
their students, Ven Nyanatiloka and his direct and indirect students such as
Bhikkhu Bodhi...
> ---------
>
> KenH: I am not trying to duck the question, but I genuinely don't know much
about the various respected Buddhist teachers. Occasionally someone has
explained to me who some particular monks were and where they stood on the
important issues. But I soon forget, and their names become mixed up again.
>
> KenH: Basically, as you will have guessed, I have the most respect for Ajahn
Sujin. I know there are other teachers (monks and non-monks) who explain the
Dhamma the same way she does, but I don't know their names. I am fairly sure
(but not certain) that they all acquired their right understanding from A Sujin.
---------------------------------

Mike: Well, this is what I'm trying to figure out. No Buddhist teachers that I
have met (or read or listened to for that matter) appear to have views about
practice that are aligned with those expounded by some of the "A Sujin
followers" here.

Mike: Of course, as I've tried to explain in some posts, all teachers I know
obviously teach anatta and that ultimately there is "no control" (to summarize
your position rather simplistically). However, they clearly differ from the "A
Sujin followers" position on how to gain a deep understanding of these issues.

Mike: Frankly, it doesn't bother me too much, since I obviously have  much more
confidence in my teachers than I do in people who I only know through the
Internet. However, since my understanding of the Dhamma is far from perfect, I
am curious whether there are other teachers who have come to similar
conclusions.

Metta
Mike



#104916 	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 7:51 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 5. 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear Lukas,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" <szmicio@...> wrote:
> Nina there are issuse I wanna to rise in my questions to Acharn. Like metta
object for devlopment and karuna object for devlopment.
> In my life I cannot get karuna or metta while sitting and applaying the object
like desc. in Vsm.
>
> But I can feel so much metta and karuna to people during the day.
...
S: I'll look forward to the discussions of your questions.

When you try to have metta and karuna while sitting, there's no understanding,
just trying to have a result, therefore no metta at all.

When it's in your daily life, there is genuine friendliness or kindness for
others "spontaneously", without thinking of yourself. In this way, the
characteristic of metta can be known and developed. This is why without the
growth of right understanding, as Ken O keeps stressing, metta cannot grow.

Greatly appreciating all your posts again, Lukas!

Metta

Sarah
========



#104917 	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 7:55 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: VsM teaches formal meditation 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear Lukas,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas <szmicio@...> wrote:
> L: 40 objects. So this is not 40 practices. nor 40 things to do. but 40
objects of meditation.?
> I could not get still the object of metta, to hard for me to grasp. You sit
and free your mind of dosa, start to think in this or that way. very hard. If I
want to be honest this is the 2nd object, next to anapana that does not work on
me. 38 left.
> Best wishesLukas.
> P.sI am very distracted by my unsensability to this objects. But I consider
them as perfect. There is a glitch with me then.
...
S: The "glitch" is not in "you", but in the understanding of the practice.
Trying to grasp an object, trying to free the mind of dossa, trying to think in
a particuar way will only lead to more and more distraction and distress because
it's not the path. It's a strong clinging to oneself and results - attachment,
not detachment.

Metta

Sarah
=========



#104918 	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: Dhaniya Sutta (5) 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear Han & all,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:
> 7. Dhaniya:
> "I support myself on my earnings.
> My sons live in harmony, free from disease.
> I hear no evil about them at all:
> So if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain."
>
> 7. Attavetana bhatohamasmi (iti dhaniyo gopo)
> Puttaa ca me samaaniyaa arogaa,
> Tesa.m na su.naami ki~nci papa.m
> Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva.
> ----------
> 8. The Buddha:
> "I'm in no one's employ, [Note 6]
> I wander the whole world on the reward [of my Awakening].
> No need for earnings is to be found:
> So if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain."
>
> [Note 6 by Thanissaro Bhikkhu] According to the Commentary, the Buddha is not
in anyone else's employ nor even in his own employ, i.e., he is not in the
employ of craving.
...
S: I forget if I commented on these verses. "In no one's emply", not in the
emply of craving - this is such a simple and wonderful explanation which we
might easily miss.

In another message you started to give the detailed Pali explanation and asked
if we have an interest to read more. I'd like to encourage you to continue with
these extra notes if you have time, Han. Many thanks in advance.

I was talking to Nina about worldly conditions. We all face them. Best wishes
with yours. Courage again!

Metta

Sarah
=======



#104919 	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear pt,

Following on from a comment I wrote yesterday:

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
> S: Because of the nature of Buddhahood, the parami (perfections) > Also, in
another message to me on Bodhisattas and aspriations (#104595), I don't believe
there is anything along the lines you refer to in "later literature" in the
Theravada texts re "the desire to become a Buddha without declaring his
intention to others" before making a resolution. I could be wrong, but I suspect
this is from Mahayana texts.
> ...
S: The following which Nina gave in the Sangiiti Series (#104535) may also be
relevant here:

"N: The co. elaborates on saddhaa, confidence and classifies it as
fourfold.
1. Saddha of `arriving' (aagamana) and this refers to the bodhisatta
who aspires to become an omniscient Buddha.

The subco: conditioned by this aspiration, beginning with this
aspiration, he arrived (aagataa).

N: Sumedha aspired with great confidence at the feet of the Buddha
Diipankara to become a sammaasambuddha. He began to develop all the
conditions necessary to become a sammaasambuddha, including the
perfections."
...
S: "Beginning with this aspriation", he began to develop all the conditions, all
the paramii.

Metta

Sarah
======



#104920 	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 8:11 pm
Subject: Re: Life 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear Lukas,

#104554

A great quote and comment at the end:

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" <szmicio@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Nina, Ken 0, Alex,Sarah, Han and all,
> (Nina) I was thinking of what you said that you think of the how many futer
lives you have to live.
>
> The Blessed One Buddha said:
>
> Analysis of dependent origination (Pa.ticcasamuppaadavibha"ngo)
>
> 1. Analysis according to the discourses (Suttantabhaajaniiya.m)
>
> Because of ignorance activities arise; (Avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraa)
<...>
> Thus is the arising of this whole mas of suffering. (Evametassa kevalassa
dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.)
> <Vibhangapali, paticcasamupada, PTS>
>
> I like this, no Self anywhere, just moha that condition whole mass of misery.
No one who can live futer lifes. Just misery that we cannot control.
> If we consider this in that way in life, we have less suffering in our lifes.
....
S: So very true....just conditioned dhammas rolling on. No point in trying to
change it or control it, just develop more understanding!

Thanks again for all the good quotes and reflections.

Metta

Sarah
============



#104921 	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 8:17 pm
Subject: Re: Life 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear Lukas & all,

#104574 is also very helpful. I like all your comments, but won't requote them
all now.

You had one qu in it -

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" <szmicio@...> wrote:
> L: pu~n~na means merit, the good deed I think so. I think pu~n~naabhisankhara
can mean all those sankharas that leads to good, and the opposite with
apu~n~naabhisankhara. I cannot get aane~njaabhisankhara.
...
S: arupa jhana. Actually, you give it below:

> <Tattha katamo aane~njaabhisa"nkhaaro? Kusalaa cetanaa aruupaavacaraa  aya.m
vuccati aane~njaabhisa"nkhaaro.>
>
> Therein what is activity producing  unshakeable (resultant)?
> Good volition characteristic  of the formless plane . This is called activity
producing  unshakeable(resultant).
...
Metta

Sarah
======



#104922 	From: han tun <hantun1@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 8:39 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhaniya Sutta (5) 	hantun1
  	

Dear Sarah (and Nina),

> Sarah: In another message you started to give the detailed Pali explanation
and asked if we have an interest to read more. I'd like to encourage you to
continue with these extra notes if you have time, Han. Many thanks in advance.

Han: If you say so, I will continue with the thread.

----------

> Sarah: I was talking to Nina about worldly conditions. We all face them. Best
wishes with yours. Courage again!
Metta, Sarah

Han: Yes, Sarah and Nina, the worldly conditions could affect us because of our
attachment to the five aggregates. I was presenting Bhaara Sutta at another
forum. I have picked up the burden of the five aggregates from the moment of my
rebirth, have carried the heavy burden for more than eighty years, maintaining
them, bathing, feeding, seating, and laying them down during the course of my
life. I will then discard them at the moment of my death, only to take up
another burden of aggregates at the moment of rebirth. I am now weary of the
heavy load. But I must have courage, just as you said!

with metta and respect,
Han



#104923 	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 8:38 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear Alex,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
wrote:
> > S: the "Ist floor" is right view (sammaadi.t.thi).
>
> And what is the cause for right view? As I understand it, the real N8P starts
with stream entry path.  So before one is a stream-enterer there cannot be full,
or established, right view.
....
S: If right view doesn't begin to develop now, there can never be the "full, or
established, right view" or tha attainment of stream entry. Right view begins
with the understanding of the disinction between nama and rupa, the distinction
between seeing and visible object, for example, at this very moment. When
visible object is clearly known as just that reality which is seen, quite
distinct from the experiencing of that which is visible, there is no more room
for an idea of atta.
...

> >S: It is the kilesa, the defilements, that are dusty now. This is the same
for all - "the dust of the defilements".
>
>
> Do you have commentary to DN#2, Samanaphala sutta ? There the commentary does
explain the above passages to refer to lay life  vs a monastic life and the
importance of the monastic life.
>
> "The discourse on the fruits of recluseship, The Samannaphala Sutt and its
Commentaries by Bhikkhu Bodhi" -  pg 102
...
S: Yes I have this great work, but not with me. I know the passage you're
referring to. The monastic life referred to it the one which is not dusty, i.e.
without kilesa, the life of the arahat. Putting on robes will not remove the
kilesa, the development of the path will.
....
>
> =====
> As I understand it, the 227 monastic rules are aimed at curbing the major and
lesser defilements. Many of these rules cannot really be fulfilled by the laity.
Not consistently.
....
S: They can only be fulfilled by the one who has developed sufficient
understanding. Most monks today are unable to fulfill them because they do not
have sufficient understanding and confidence in the Buddha's Teachings and the
rules laid down for the benefit of the Sangha and Teachings as a whole. The
monk's life is for the one who can live like an arahat, who can follow the rules
joyfully and without regret. The kamma involved in not doing so is very
dangerous.

May we all learn to live a less dusty life!

Metta

Sarah
======



#104924 	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 8:47 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear Dieter, (Ken H, Scott & all),

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
>>S: There are some errors which I wouldn't call minor - I mentioned a few to
B.Bodhi once, as editor of BPS, but he pointed out that it's almost impossible
to make any changes once an author or compiler has passed away.
>
>
> D: let us talk about the ones 'not  minor' ..... I too have something in mind
..
> considering that the author completed the first edition under rather difficult
circumstances about 60 years ago , it would be great if some footnotes
> for the on-line version would be possible  (for  errors not minor
/respectively different interpretations agreed by  B.Bodhi as well . Perhaps he
may re-consider  when a change of the orginal can be avoided by that   ..? )
....
S: I agree with you that it's an amazing work, considering the circumstances.
The same goes for the early Pali dictionaries, all written without computers and
internet of course.

I think your idea of some footnoes to be read with the on-line version is an
excellent one. We can certainly start to make a list here. I know at one time I
did make a few jottings which I'll look out. What is it that you have in mind
that you refer to above? I'd also like to bring Ken H, Scott and others into the
project. I seem to remember Ken H referring to something before on the Eightfold
Path. A big one is on Ayatanas.

So, for any errors/corrections, perhaps anyone can fire ahead. I'd be happy to
keep notes and begin to compile a list.

Thanks for the suggestion, Dieter. Also, I'm very glad to read all your other
friendly and 'spirited' discussions! Keep them going and don't be deterred by
any comments you find a tad disrespectful:). I appreciate your reminders to
everyone about gentle speech.

Metta

Sarah
========



#104925 	From: "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 8:49 pm
Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 	jonoabb
  	

Hi Alex

(104912)
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
wrote:
> ...
> Thank you for your replies. Could you please explain in steps (1,2,3...) how
to study properly?
> ===============

There is no '1, 2, 3' for the development of insight (if there was the Buddha
would have mentioned it ;-))

There are, however, requisites for that development.  These are the things
without which the development cannot occur.

First, one must come into contact with the Dhamma (in the texts, association
with the right person).  Secondly, one must hear the Dhamma explained in a
manner that is appropriate to one's level of ignorance/understanding.  Thirdly,
one must find what has thus been heard and understood to be of interest, so that
it is reflected upon at length.  And finally, one must appreciate that the
Dhamma as taught by the Buddha refers to this very moment and no other, so that
what one has heard is capable of being verified, to a greater or lesser degree,
as a description of the present moment.

> ===============
> Of course. Personally I don't remember saying that wisdom is not important.
But how is this wisdom attained and what helps to attain it?
> ===============

There is already the accumulated tendency for wisdom, so we don't have to worry
about 'attaining' it.  It arises from time to time, but not at quite the level
we would like it to ;-)).  If we accept that we are not as far advanced as we
perhaps at first thought, everything makes a lot more sense.

It is better to recognise that the task is a long and arduous one than to strive
for quick gains.  The desire for immediate results leads us to all sorts of
wrong practice.

> ===============
Part of the path is Samma-Samadhi, and Buddha frequently talked about
anapanasati and other "samatha" studies, even within the Satipatthana sutta.
> ===============

Samma-samadhi as one of the 8 (co-arising) path factors is not to be confused
with the development of samatha/jhana, even though the path factor is described
in terms of jhana.

The development of samatha, including  to various levels jhana, was obviously
fairly widespread at the time of the Buddha, both among his followers and among
the followers of other sects.  So teachings are given that have relevance to
persons capable of attaining jhana in particular.  But these teachings do not
specify jhana as a prerequisite for the development of insight.

> ===============
> In which sutta is the Buddha directly quoted talked about absolute ultimate
realities distinct from concepts (which do not exist) AND TO WHOM?
> ===============

The Buddha spoke about dhammas frequently and at length.  He did not
specifically contrast dhammas with concepts, except when talking about the
nimitta and anubhyancana.

If you don't like the term concepts, that's not a problem, as long as there is
not the taking of one for the other.

> ===============
> How does one properly understand and do anapanasati, corpse in 10 stages of
decay, 32 bodyparts instructions found in Satipatthana sutta?
> ===============

There is no instruction by the Buddha to do these things.  There is only a
description, for the benefit of those who do them, of how satipatthana may be
developed at the same time.

Jon



#104926 	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 8:55 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear pt,

Between you and Ken O, you pick up on all the most 'knotty' issues:)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...> wrote:
> When it comes to the issue of unconditioned space, I'm still a bit intrigued
by apparent lack of sources that actually say clearly that space is
unconditioned.
>
> So far, from UP and the sources you list in #88905, to me only Milinda panha
seems to say so more or less. The next best source is from Atthasalini (The
Expositor' II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 326,), but it is much more ambiguous and
open to interpretation. I would think that if space was unconditioned, it would
have been clearly enumerated somewhere as such, just like all the other rupas
and namas.
....
S: I know, life would be simpler, but then the Teachings are not in the book in
the end. What is there here in front of us wher there are no kalapas of hardness
and other conditioned rupas? It took me years to appreciate this.
.....
>
> Perhaps that was implied by the usage of a specific Pali term - as you mention
- "an-antaakaasa, not pariccheda aakaasa". So perhaps it's just a matter of
going through Pali in all the sources and comparing what Pali term is actually
used for "space" in a particular case...
....
S: I'm not sure that would help.

Did you read the transcript of a discussion with K.Sujin which I think is under
'Space' in U.P. - the last few entries, probably?

Metta

Sarah
======



#104927 	From: han tun <hantun1@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 8:59 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 16. 	hantun1
  	

Dear Sarah and Nina,

I like your explanation very much, Sarah, about the killing.
I really appreciate it.

--------------------

> > Nina: Here is the last section of part II. Han, in the Pali text there is a
passage about killing not being manokamma used for an explanation I did not get,
and therefore I omitted it. Perhaps you understand it?

> Sarah: Perhaps Han can tell me if this relates to the text at all.

Han: Nina's account of the Latent Tendencies no. 16 cannot be matched with the
Pali text that I have. In fact, the format of Nina's presentation is very much
different from the format of the Pali text that I have. But I find Nina's
presentation very useful. So I have said, I will discard my books and
concentrate on Nina's presentations only.

with metta and respect,
Han


#104928 	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 9:00 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear Ken O,

#104540

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> wrote:
>
> KO:???Like what you said wrong views have no concern about anything as it is
not self.? True understanding of realities is the gist, however terms must be
understood clearly so one know when that characteristic arise.??
...
S: True!

Metta

Sarah

p.s I appreciated your kind note to Nina. It's true, what we dwell on, the mind
leans towards, anuseti - remember that sutta?
========



#104929 	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 9:11 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear Alex, (All, esp. Suan, see p.s.)

#104542

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
wrote:
> I can understand the gradual training for a momentary magga citta.
> But it is a bit more complex to explain how can one, being already on the path
(magga) have a gradual training towards the phala - phala which is supposed to
happen without-interruption after magga citta.
>
> As I understand, your solution is that: there is gradual training for magga or
phala  prior to maggaphala moment.
...
S: Being on the path, doesn't mean that Lokuttara magga and phala cittas have
arisen. Now, if there are moments of satipatthana, it is the path leading
towards enlightenment.

Also the sotapanna continues developing understanding leading towards the second
stage of enlightenment and so on.

When we read about the "Noble eightfold path" it can refer to either the
momentary lokuttara cittas or to the path leading towards them. We always have
to check the context.

Did you read #69946 by Ven Dhammanando?

Metta

Sarah

p.s All - I'm signing off for now and will have even more limited internet
access over the weekend as we travel to Canberra for many family and wedding
events. SUAN, are you in Canberra this weekend and if so, are you free to join
us on Sat morning for a coffee, snack or walk?
========



#104930 	From: han tun <hantun1@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 9:30 pm
Subject: Dhaniya Sutta Pali words (2) 	hantun1
  	

Dear Sarah (and others),

When I presented the Dhaniya Sutta at another forum I gave the meaning of the
Pali words as well. I have omitted them at DSG not to make my messages too long.
Now, since Sarah has appreciated it, I will continue presenting the meaning of
the Pali words of Dhaniya Sutta that I have gathered. I used Concise
Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera, PTS Dictionary, and
Pali-Burmese Dictionary. The meaning of Pali words in verse are more difficult
to find than the Pali words in prose, unless one is really expert in Pali
grammar, which I am not. When I cannot find a Pali word in any of these
Dictionaries I refer to the English translation or the Burmese translation of
the sutta. As I do not know Pali grammar, there may be some mistakes in my post.
I will be very happy if someone will correct any mistakes that may be found in
my presentation.

I have given the meaning of Pali words of the first two verses in the following
message:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/104719

I will now continue.

---------------------

3. Dhaniya:
No mosquitoes or gadflies are to be found.
The cows range in the marshy meadow where the grasses flourish.
They could stand the rain if it came:
so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain.

3. Andhakamakasaa na vijjare (iti dhaniyo gopo)
Kacche ruu.lhati.ne caranti gaavo,
Vu.t.thimpi saheyyumaagata.m
Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva.

andhaka: (m.), dark or yellow fly or gad-fly.
makasa: [m.] a mosquito.
na + vijjati = not + exists; to be found.
kaccha: [m.; nt.] marshy land.
ruu.lha: [pp. of ruuhati] grew.
caranta: [pr.p. of carati] walking or roaming about.
gaavo: [m. (nom. plu.)] cattle.
vu.t.thi: [f.] rain.
saheyya: that which can be endured.
gata: arrived at.

--------------------

4. The Buddha:
"A raft, well-made, has been lashed together.
Having crossed over, gone to the far shore,
I've subdued the flood. No need for a raft is to be found:
so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain."

4. Baddhaasi bhisi susa"nkhataa (iti bhagav?)
Ti.n.no paaragato vineyya ogha.m,
Attho bhisiyaa na vijjati
Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva.

baddha: [pp. of bandhati] bound; trapped; fastened; combined; put together.
bhisi: raft.
su + sa"nkhata = well + prepared.
ti.n.na: crossed over.
paara: (nt.), the opposite shore; the other side.
gata: arrived at.
vineyya: [abs. of vineti] having removed.
ogha: [m.] a flood; that which sweeps a man away from emancipation; torrent..
attha: [m.] welfare; gain; wealth; need.
attho + bhisiyaa + na + vijjati = need + for raft + not + exists or to be found.
vijjati: [vid + ya] exists; to be found.

--------------------

5. Dhaniya:
My wife is compliant, not careless,
is charming, has lived with me long.
I hear no evil about her at all:
so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain.

5. Gopii mama assavaa alolaa (iti dhaniyo gopo)
Diigharatta.m sa.mvaasiyaa manaapaa,
Tassaa na su.naami ki~nci paapa.m
Atha ce patthayasii pavassa deva.

gopii: [f.] a woman herding the cows or the wife of a cowherd.
mama = "this is mine", my.
gopii mama = my wife.
assava: [adj.] loyal; attentive.
alola: [adj.] not covetous or distracted by desires.
diigharatta.m: [adv.] a long time.
sa.mvaasa: [m.] 1. co-residence; 2. intimacy.
manaapa: [adj.] pleasing; charming.
tassa = of that person.
su.naati: [su + .naa] hears.
na su.naami = not heard.
ki~nci: [ind.] something.
paapa: evil.

--------------------

6. The Buddha:
"My mind is compliant, released,
has long been nurtured, well tamed.
No evil is to be found in me:
so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain."

6. Citta.m mama assava.m vimutta.m (iti bhagav?)
Diigharatta.m paribhaavita.m sudanta.m,
Paapa.m pana me na vijjati
Atha ce patthayasii pavassa deva.

citta.m mama = my mind.
assava: [adj.] loyal; attentive.
vimutta: [pp. of vimuccati] released; emancipated.
vimutti: [f.] release; deliverance; emancipation.
diigharatta.m = long time.
paribhaavita: [pp. of paribhaaveti] trained; penetrated; practiced.
sudanta: [adj.] well tamed.
paapa: evil.
pana: and; yet; but; out the contrary; and now; more over.
me = in me.
na + vijjati = not + exists; to be found.

---------------------

To be continued.

with metta,
Han



#104931 	From: "charlest" <dhammasaro@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 10:13 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	dhammasaro
  	

Good friend

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Chuck ,
>
> you wrote:
>
>
> 1. Please forgive the delay in answering.
> 2. Please forgive my dullness. I simply do not understand your comments'
relevance to my comment repeated below:
>
>  (D: [Name deleted] this list is stated to be a Theravada ( Teaching of the
Elders) Buddhist list , i.e. its base is the Pali Canon.. and the decision
whether true or false Dhamma depends on what has been said and what not
according to the Tipitaka.. )
> > C: FWIW, over the many years since joining in 2001, I strongly felt the
same. Far, far too, too many incidences have I felt I was at a M&#257;dhyamikas
Buddha list; rather, than at a Theravadin Buddha list!!!
> D: well, .... until proven wrong/false in respect to the Canon ..
>  Besides the grand references mentioned in the Maha Parinibbana Sutta, the
Buddha declared the appearance of the 8fold Noble Path crucial
>  in each teaching for any possibility of nobility..the 4 states of holiness.)
> :
>
> D: you suspect -when I understand you correctly- a Madhyamika 'tendency' of
the list .
> Well,as I see it  the Theravada nature can be distinguished from other schools
by above mentioned .. but that should not hinder you to state
> your reasons.. perhaps below from Buddhanet  may be of help (?):
> It is generally accepted, that what we know today as the Mahayana arose from
the Mahasanghikas sect who were the earliest seceders, and the forerunners of
the Mahayana. They took up the cause of their new sect with zeal and enthusiasm
and in a few decades grew remarkably in power and popularity. They adapted the
existing monastic rules and thus revolutionised the Buddhist Order of Monks.
Moreover, they made alterations in the arrangements and interpretation of the
Sutra (Discourses) and the Vinaya (Rules) texts. And they rejected certain
portions of the canon which had been accepted in the First Council.
>
> According to it, the Buddhas are lokottara (supramundane) and are connected
only externally with the worldly life. This conception of the Buddha contributed
much to the growth of the Mahayana philosophy.
>
> Mahayana Buddhism is divided into two systems of thought: the Madhyamika and
the Yogacara. The Madhyamikas were so called on account of the emphasis they
laid on the middle view. Here, the middle path, stands for the non-acceptance of
the two views concerning existence and nonexistence, eternity and non eternity,
self and non-self. In short, it advocates neither the theory of reality nor that
of the unreality of the world, but merely of relativity. It is, however, to be
noted that the Middle Path propounded at Sarnath by the Buddha had an ethical
meaning, while that of the Madhyamikas is a metaphysical concept.
>
> The Yogacara School is another important branch of the Mahayana. It was so
called because it emphasised the practice of yoga (meditation) as the most
effective method for the attainment of the highest truth (Bodhi). All the ten
stages of spiritual progress of Bodhisattvahood have to be passed through before
Bodhi can be attained. The ideal of the Mahayana school, therefore, is that of
the Bodhisattva, a person who delays his or her own enlightenment in order to
compassionately assist all other beings and ultimately attains to the highest
Bodhi.
>
>
> unquote
>
> with Metta Dieter
>
>
>
>
>
> Chuck  ,  the relevance was to make it easier for you to decide on the nature
of the list ..
>

C:  Sorry, I was not clear.



I meant only the Mahasanghikas.  For some reason, it did not print correctly. 
[bummers]



I partially quote your referenced quote:

"...the Mahasanghikas sect who were the earliest seceders, and the forerunners
of the Mahayana.

They took up the cause of their new sect with zeal and enthusiasm and in a few
decades grew remarkably in power and popularity.

... snip

Moreover, they made alterations in the arrangements and interpretation of the
Sutra (Discourses) and the Vinaya (Rules) texts.

And they rejected certain portions of the canon which had been accepted in the
First Council."

.....................................

End of your partial quote.




Please strongly note and remember:

1.  I do not claim to teach;

2.  I try not to give opinion;

3.  I always try provide a referenced source, just as you did in this instance;

4.  I am a mere student; a mere puthujjana.



Perhaps, I fail too, too much here...



as ever, el diablo, I remain [in a parallel universe]

Chuck

Post script:

FYI:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Buddhist_schools



#104932 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 11:11 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhaniya Sutta (5) 	nilovg
  	

Dear Han,
Op 4-feb-2010, om 5:39 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven:

> I will then discard them at the moment of my death, only to take up
> another burden of aggregates at the moment of rebirth. I am now
> weary of the heavy load. But I must have courage, just as you said!
---------
N: The being that takes up another burden is not you or me. It is
another being, but this is hard to really understand. That new being
is conditioned by this being now. I can repeat these words, but I
find it difficult to really understand this in all its implications.
The Middle Way is, as Howard said, very subtle.

--------
Nina.




#104933 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 11:32 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	nilovg
  	

Dear Sarah,
thank you for your kind post.
Op 4-feb-2010, om 4:23 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven:

> As K.Sujin would say, your dead brother has already been reborn -
> "He fares the way he had to tread". When you give support to your
> family and reflect and write on Dhamma, at such times there is no
> sadness.
------
N: As you said before, Dhamma is the best medicine in times of grief.
Only this point is complex: he is already reborn. It is another
being, no use to think that it is my brother who is reborn. No
annihilation and no eternalism, but the Middle Way is hard to
understand, as I wrote to Han.
---------
>
> S: We're not anagamis, so the sadness is bound to arise again and
> again because of the accumulations to dwell on our own feelings,
> our own loss, our own difficulties, but in between the reminders
> about the second dart, about seeing and visible object at this
> moment, about vipaka, about sati now can all help a lot. Moments of
> direct understanding are the most precious of all.
------
N: Yes, in between there can be understanding. When writing about
Abhidhamma I forget all about my dead brother.
-----
Nina.




#104934 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 11:59 pm
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	nilovg
  	

Dear Vince,
Thank you. I like the quote about the arrow. We also learnt about a
second arrow: by sadness, dosa, we make the pain worse.
A remark below:
Op 4-feb-2010, om 0:46 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven:

> If a man live a hundred
> years, or even more, he will at last be separated from the company
> of his relatives, and leave the life of this world. He who seeks peace
> should draw out the arrow of lamentation, and complaint, and grief.
> He who has drawn out the arrow and has become composed will
> obtain peace of mind; he who has overcome all sorrow will become
> free from sorrow, and be blessed."
--------
N: You quote: People pass away, and their fate
after death will be according to their deeds..
Kamma will produce vipaaka. Rebirth-consciousness is the result of
kamma.
You wrote to Ken O:
> But where I point is, What is conditionality?.
>
> We say kamma is the condition for consciousness but we know kamma is
> not a dhamma; it is just understanding, a law. Kamma then it's a
> conventional truth. Kamma formations are sustained by ignorance.
>
-----
N: Kamma is a dhamma, it is the cetasika volition or intention. It is
not conventional, but it can be explained by way of conventional terms.
When we read about deeds we should not think of the outward
appearance of deeds. The cetanaa that motivates these is kamma that
produces result later on. Akusala cetanaa or kamma produces
unpleasant vipaaka, and kusala cetanaa or kamma produces pleasant
vipaaka.
Kamma-condiiton is one type of condiiton, but there are twentyfour
classes in all. Conascence-condiiton is another type of condition we
discussed already.
-------
V: What is the condition of ignorance?
------
N: Not hearing the true Dhamma, and unnwise attention.
BTW you use the word ambi, is this a Spanish word?
------
In order to understand the D.O. it is very important to remember that
cittas can be classified as four jaatis (nature or class):
Kusala
akusala
vipaaka
kiriya (neither kusala nor akusala).

Vipaaka can be akusala vipaaka, the result of akusala kamma, or
kusala vipaaka, the result of kusala kamma. However, they are
together one class, since they are merely result.
More important than vipaaka are our reactions to it which may be
kusala citta or akusala citta. When kusala citta or akusala citta
arise, more kusala and akusala are accumulated. They fall away but
they are not lost. The are conditions for future arisings of kusala
citta and akusala citta.
--------
Nina.






#104935 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 12:20 am
Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 14. 	nilovg
  	

Dear friends,

When he gave food to the brahman, there was energy or courage, which
is indispensable for each kind of kusala. Energy strengthens the
kusala citta so that good deeds can be performed. He had patience, he
was glad to endure hunger for three days, and had there be an
opportunity for a longer period of time to give away his food, he
would have fasted longer, even for one or two months. He also
accumulated the Perfection of truthfulness. Truthfulness has several
aspects. It is not only truthfulness in speech but also sincerity in
action and thought. Kusala must be known as kusala and akusala as
akusala. One should not delude oneself with regard to one?s faults
and vices, even when they are more subtle. It should be known that
when one is giving a gift with selfish motives, there is no sincere
inclination to kusala, that one may take akusala for kusala. Akitti
had a sincere inclination to give and did not expect any benefit for
himself. The Perfection of truthfulness is indispensable for the
development of right understanding. One has to be sincere with regard
to what one has understood and what one has not understood yet,
otherwise there cannot be any progress. The Bodhisatta accumulated
determination, he had an unshakable determination to persevere with
the development of understanding and the other Perfections until he
would reach the goal. He had loving-kindness, he thought of the
brahman?s welfare, not of himself. There was equanimity, he had no
aversion even though he went without food for three days. He had
equanimity towards the vicissitudes of life. Right understanding of
kamma and the result of kamma conditions equanimity.
This text illustrates that the Perfections can be accumulated when a
good deed is being performed. As we have seen, there are ten kinds of
good qualities which have been classified as the Perfections. Good
qualities are not always Perfections. They are Perfections only when
the aim of the performing of kusala is the diminishing of defilements
and eventually their eradication at enlightenment.

******
Nina.




#104936 	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 1:04 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	sarahprocter...
  	

Dear Nina,

--- On Thu, 4/2/10, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
------
N: As you said before, Dhamma is the best medicine in times of grief.
Only this point is complex: he is already reborn. It is another
being, no use to think that it is my brother who is reborn. No
annihilation and no eternalism, but the Middle Way is hard to
understand, as I wrote to Han.
---------
S: Yes, I was about to say the same - also to Ell when she mentioned KS's
comment when her mother died. Another name, another form, no longer one's
brother or mother, no person at all. Just cittas, cetasikas and rupas...it is
the understanding of these that is the Middle Way. "Like the wind.....", we
meet, we associate and we part. In the end, all alone with the citta now....
We're so fortunate to have had good friends, good family associates in this
life...
...
N: Yes, in between there can be understanding. When writing about
Abhidhamma I forget all about my dead brother.
-----
S: I find the same - when reflecting on the Dhamma or others' concerns, no
thought of 'me' and 'my losses':).

We're so fortunate to know a little about this good medicine.

Metta

Sarah
=======


#104937 	From: "charlest" <dhammasaro@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 1:17 am
Subject: Re: Ajahn Jumnien, was: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship 	dhammasaro
  	

Good friends all,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" <dhammasaro@...> wrote:
>
> Good friends all,
>
> >>... snip
>
> C:  It seems one can not edit a message...
>
> Below is what I sent with omission added as noted!!!
> ...........................................................
>
> Ajahn Jumnien; was, Insight Steps to bare Arhatship
>
> Good friend pt, et al
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" <dhammasaro@> wrote:
> >
> > Good friend pt, et al
> >
> >... snip
> > >
> > > > C: On ajahn Jumnien, I think I visited his monastery a year or two
before the tsunami...
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> C: Found this Dhamma talk by Ajahn Jumnien. It is translated into English by a
former English monk under Ajahn Chah.
>
> Perhaps, you will find it useful...
>
> peace...
>
> metta (maitri),
>
> Chuck
>
> [Edit:  Add web site... 
http://88000.multiply.com/music/item/149/Ajahn_Jumnien_1_song
>
> One may need to join to hear the audio...
>
> One may un-join after hearing the audio...
>
> One may remain a member and become active as one wishes...
>
> [End sidebar]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > C: Well, I did miss many... Ajahn Chah for one... Ajahn Buddhadasa for
> another... but, I study their Dhamma talks...
> >
> > I will keep my "ears open" for any discussion on Thai monks following the
> Mahayana Tradition on the Bodhisattva.
> >
> > Please keep in touch, so to write... [beeg Texican smiles]
> >
> > peace...
> >
> > metta (maitri),
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> > Post script: This is where I met Ajahn Plien:
> >
> >
>
http://kasteelzeist.multiply.com/photos/album/57/Wat_Phare_Mahajedee_Rachsamjamm\
\
> adhevesrivechai
> >
>




C:  Please try this web page:

http://kasteelzeist.multiply.com/music/item/96/Ajahn_Jumnien_Dhamma_Talk

peace...

metta (maitri),

Chuck



#104938 	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 4:32 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	ashkenn2k
  	

Dear Sarah


>
>I was going to tell you that I'd been feeling a little sad recently too. A long
story, but we found that we and my mother had had items (mostly money) stolen
just before she left us and we left Hong Kong. It caused lots of problems for us
all. We had to dismiss a part-time helper, get the locks changed, arrange for a
new bank card in Australia and so on. Just as I was packing I found that even
some of my clothes had gone missing! Of course, we're fortunate that the damage
was not greater.

KO: Vipaka
>
>A tape I listened to on the flight over was helpful - reminders about having
metta and compassion to those who behave badly at the time, rather than later
when they experience the results of the deeds. Again, any sadness at the losses
or 'poor me' is so unhelpful. The problem always comes back to the accumulated
tendencies for lobha, dosa and moha. Jon told the helper she could keep the
money if she just gave us back the bank card which we needed here, but she kept
denying everything. Sometimes, it's just time for equanimity.

KO:? accumulations

You will understand what I mean.? It really helps to think in terms of
dhamma.??? I am most glad?when Nina said <<When writing about
Abhidhamma I forget all about my dead brother.>.???The bala?of understanding
dhamma.?



With metta
Ken O




#104939 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 6:56 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	nilovg
  	

Dear Sarah,
Op 4-feb-2010, om 10:04 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven:

> S: Yes, I was about to say the same - also to Ell when she
> mentioned KS's comment when her mother died. Another name, another
> form, no longer one's brother or mother, no person at all. Just
> cittas, cetasikas and rupas...it is the understanding of these that
> is the Middle Way. "Like the wind.....", we meet, we associate and
> we part. In the end, all alone with the citta now.... We're so
> fortunate to have had good friends, good family associates in this
> life...
> ...
---------
N: The section of the Sangiitisutta that is coming up next is about
the endless lives in higher planes of the anaagaami. At first I
thought why do I have to study this. But now I find it an excellent
reminder of the aeons of lives, and how insignificant each life is, a
mere nothing. How short and still, there is an opportunity to develop
understanding.

Nina.





#104940 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 7:00 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	nilovg
  	

Dear Ken O,
Op 4-feb-2010, om 13:32 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven:

> It really helps to think in terms of dhamma.    I am most glad when
> Nina said <<When writing about
> Abhidhamma I forget all about my dead brother.>.
-------
N: This reminds me: the person who is alive, or his dead body, all
this only exists for us so long as citta thinks about him. When I
think of something else, like Abhidhamma, where is the person? No more.
-------
Nina.




#104941 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 10:44 am
Subject: Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) 	moellerdieter
  	

Hi Jon,

you wrote:

' I agree that the sutta highlights the difference between the uninstructed
worldling and the instructed noble disciple.
The particular difference being drawn can be seen from the abbreviated version
of the sutta (copied from ati) set out at the end of this message.
In summary:
- The uninstructed worldling may be able to gain release from the body (para
[1]), but he is unable to gain release from the mind (para [2]).
- The instructed noble disciple, however, is able to gain release from both body
and mind (paras [4] and [5]). This is achieved because of his understanding of
DO.
In para [3] the Buddha explains why it would be "better" if the uninstructed
worldling were to take the body for self rather than the mind, i.e., the
opposite to the situation described in paras [1] and [2].
This is because the body is seen standing for a lifetime, whereas the mind
continuously "arises as one thing and ceases as another" (the monkey simile).


D:  one may add:
..simile ) , and is ageing is  apparent ( " Why is that? Because the growth &
decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great
elements are apparent. "





J : (> If the monkey mind nature would still prevail with the instructed , then
all what has been said about mind development would be rather fruitless,
wouldn't it?)
> ===============
I don't read it that way. The monkey simile describes the nature of the mind in
general, rather than the restlessness of a mind with kilesa in particular.
That nature is that it always takes an object, which means that it is always
taking a different object. This is just as much so in the case of the instructed
noble disciple as in the case of the uninstructed worldling (seeing, hearing,
touching, etc, with multiple processed of thinking in between each sense-door
experience).


D: I thinks it is unlikely that  the Buddha would describe the  nature of the
mind of  his noble disciples in a simile using a monkey
(swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it
grabs another branch. ...)
The monkey has no sense for wholesome direction in his swinging, is not able to
train  right effort  (take care for the wholesome object),
  not able to ' overcome the obstacles to the mind which blind the mental
vision', i.e. the 5 hindrances (among them restlessness) , 'not able to discern
clearly the truth' , not be able to grow disentchanted with the 5 khandas and by
that dispassionate ..
  in other words  a fine analogy comparing the uninstructed (monkey) mind with
that of the  instructed (and trainied) disciple..

Hence :
[4] "The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully &
appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:
"'When this is, that is. ...
"'Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the
cessation of fabrications. ...

[5] "Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted
with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted
with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness.
Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully
released. ...

with Metta Dieter




#104942 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 11:29 am
Subject: Re: alms giving to momentary cittas 	truth_aerator
  	

Dear Sarah, Jon, all,

>dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...>
>
> Dear Alex, (All, esp. Suan, see p.s.)
> Did you read #69946 by Ven Dhammanando?

Thank you for your reply. I am not very satisfied about that explanation of
trying to combine  momentary path/fruition moment  and ability to give alms to
that path/fruition moment. It seems to be forced and stretched justification on
two seemingly incompatible teachings. I believe in strait forward sutta reading
that a person on the path to stream entry, for example, can last as long as this
life (okkanti-samyutta). Since that person (or namarupic stream to be more
precise) can last for quite some time, it is possible to give it alms and so on.


We can agree to disagree.

With metta,

Alex




#104943 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 11:31 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] study, practice, & restaraunt menu simile 	nilovg
  	

Dear Alex,

Op 31-jan-2010, om 21:31 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

> What is the difference between study (pariyatti) and practice
> (patipada)?
>
> It sounds as if there is none. Furthermore, just because study
> conditions practice, it doesn't need to mean that it *causes* or is
> the same as practice. It seems that some people overemphasize study
> over actual doing of what one has studied. After all, one cannot
> satisfy the hunger by reading the menu (rather than eating it)!
-------
N: Jon and others answered but I may add something. Study here is not
study from books as Ken O also explained before. It is much more: it
is carefully considering what one has learnt about seeing that is
conditioned by eyesense and visible object, seeing that appears now.
Gradually understanding that it is a mere dhamma, not my seeing.
Beginning to understand that visible object is that which is seen,
not a person. Really understanding that visible object is not what we
used to think: all the things around us, all the people we perceive
all the time. It seems that we discover a new world by this outlook.
It does make a difference.
Such kind of study may be a condition for direct awareness, if we do
not wish for this. We do not have to think: when will it occur, how
will it occur? It has its own conditions, not by our doing.

*****
Nina.




#104944 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 11:39 am
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	truth_aerator
  	

Hello KenH, Jon, Mike, all,

>--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mikenz66@...> wrote:
> >
>Mike: Of course, as I've tried to explain in some posts, all >teachers >I know
obviously teach anatta and that ultimately there is >"no >control" (to summarize
your position rather simplistically). >However, >they clearly differ from the "A
Sujin followers" position >on how to >gain a deep understanding of these issues.
> Metta
> Mike

I agree with Mike.  Just because of anatta, no-control, etc - it doesn't refute
the need to develop understanding, wholesome states, and give up delusion, etc.


When I did Mahasi, it wasn't about control or trying to force something to
happen (although it is possible to approach anything with wrong view).

Neither does Ajahn Brahm teaches that wisdom can be forced, or Samadhi states
can be forced or controlled to occur. And Ajahn Brahm does teach satipatthana.

As to Ajahn Chah, here is a brief excerpt
"Without clarity, "worldly dhamma" predominates and we are turned away from the
"Path". When Right Understanding arises, liberation from
suffering lies right here before us. You will not find liberation by running
around looking elsewhere! So don't be in a hurry and try to push or rush your
practice. Do your meditation gently and gradually step by step. In regard to
peacefulness, if you want to become peaceful, then accept it; if you don't
become peaceful, then accept that also. That's the nature of the mind. We must
find our won practice and persistently keep at it. Perhaps wisdom does not
arise!

I used to think, about my practice, that when there is no wisdom, I could force
myself to have it. But it didn't work, things remained
the same. Then, after careful consideration, I saw that to contemplate things
that we don't have cannot be done. So what's the best thing to do? It's better
just to practice with equanimity. If there is nothing to cause us concern, then
there's nothing to remedy. If there's no problem, then we don't have to try to
solve it. When
there is a problem, that's when you must solve it, right there! There's no need
to go searching for anything special, just live normally. But know what your
mind is! Live mindfully and clearly comprehending. Let wisdom be your guide;
don't live indulging in your moods. Be heedful and alert! If there is nothing,
that's fine;
when something arises, then investigate and contemplate it.

[pg 33] This point is very important! It isn't that we have to
do sitting practice throughout the day and night, or that we have to do walking
meditation all day and all night long. If this is our view of practice, then we
really make it difficult for ourselves. We should do what we can according to
our strength and energy, using
our physical capabilities in the proper amount. "
Bodhinyana.pdf pg 31-32, 33


With metta,

Alex


#104945 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 6:44 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) 	upasaka_howard
  	

Hi, Dieter (and Jon) -

In a message dated 2/4/2010 1:44:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
moellerdieter@... writes:

Hi Jon,

you wrote:

' I agree that the sutta highlights the difference  between the
uninstructed worldling and the instructed noble disciple.
The  particular difference being drawn can be seen from the abbreviated
version of  the sutta (copied from ati) set out at the end of this message.
In summary:
- The uninstructed worldling may be able to gain release from the body
(para [1]), but he is unable to gain release from the mind (para [2]).
-  The instructed noble disciple, however, is able to gain release from
both body  and mind (paras [4] and [5]). This is achieved because of his
understanding of  DO.
In para [3] the Buddha explains why it would be "better" if the
uninstructed worldling were to take the body for self rather than the mind, 
i.e., the
opposite to the situation described in paras [1] and [2].
This is  because the body is seen standing for a lifetime, whereas the mind
  continuously "arises as one thing and ceases as another" (the monkey
simile).


D:  one may add:
..simile ) , and is  ageing is  apparent ( " Why is that? Because the
growth & decline,  the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the
four
great  elements are apparent. "





J : (> If the monkey mind  nature would still prevail with the instructed ,
then all what has been said  about mind development would be rather
fruitless, wouldn't it?)
>  ===============
I don't read it that way. The monkey simile describes the  nature of the
mind in general, rather than the restlessness of a mind with  kilesa in
particular.
That nature is that it always takes an object, which  means that it is
always taking a different object. This is just as much so in  the case of the
instructed noble disciple as in the case of the uninstructed  worldling
(seeing, hearing, touching, etc, with multiple processed of thinking  in between
each sense-door experience).
-----------------------------------------------------------
     I agree with you on this,  Dieter. Consciousness, whether of a
worldling or an ariyan, is  constantly in flux, now experiencing this, now
experiencing that, and  mind-as-thinking also proceeds in steps. The difference
between  ariyans, especially higher ariyans, and worldlings is not that the
monkey-mind  nature is gone in an ariyan. which it is not, but that the ariyan
has  gained release from the mind, no longer grasping at the ungraspable.
====================================
With metta,
Howard


Impermanence

/Thus is how ye shall see all this  fleeting world: A star at dawn, a
bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a  summer cloud, a flickering lamp,
a
phantom and a dream/

(From the Diamond  Sutra)



#104946 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 11:49 am
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	moellerdieter
  	

Hi  Ken H  and ....,

you wrote:

'Yes, I try to learn from Nina and Sarah, and from many other DSG members. But I
can't be as careful as some in choosing my words. I have to discuss the Dhamma
to the best of my limited ability, and too much political correctness cramps my
style. :-)
At DSG we discuss both right views and wrong views. Inevitably, someone will
protest, "But the respected monk Ajahn X teaches that! Are you saying Ajahn X
has wrong view?"
What can a person say in that case?
(adding from your exchange with KO : Let's be honest; wrong view is much more
dangerous than a crocodile. Let's warn each other against it as best we can,
when we can, and worry about the social niceties later. :-)  )



D: I agree with  that exclusive  cases  , in which   Navy  mothers warning their
kids against bulls or crocodiles ..
but not where the teaching of this or that Ajahn and one's own understanding of
it  is discussed .
Before responding in my next mail to 'I wonder how much really is 'common to
all.'   and  'What are the realities that are arising now, Dieter?'
I like to quote a sutta somehow related ..

with Metta Dieter

AN 6.46
PTS: A iii 355
Cunda Sutta: Cunda
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

On one occasion Ven. Maha Cunda was staying among the Cetis in Sanjatiya. There
he addressed the monks, "Friend monks!"

"Yes, friend," the monks responded to him.

Ven. Maha Cunda said, "Friends, there is the case where Dhamma-devotee monks1
disparage jhana monks, saying, 'These people are absorbed and besorbed in jhana,
saying, "We are absorbed, we are absorbed." But why, indeed, are they absorbed?
For what purpose are they absorbed? How are they absorbed?' In that, the
Dhamma-devotee monks do not shine brightly, and the jhana monks do not shine
brightly. That is not practicing for the welfare of the masses, for the
happiness of the masses, for the good of the masses, nor for the welfare &
happiness of human & divine beings.

"Then there is the case where jhana monks disparage Dhamma-devotee monks,
saying, 'These people say, "We are Dhamma-devotees, we are Dhamma-devotees,' but
they are excitable, boisterous, unsteady, mouthy, loose in their talk, muddled
in their mindfulness, unalert, unconcentrated, their minds wandering, their
senses uncontrolled. Why, indeed, are they Dhamma devotees? For what purpose are
they Dhamma devotees? How are they Dhamma devotees?' In that, the jhana monks do
not shine brightly, and the Dhamma-devotee monks do not shine brightly. That is
not practicing for the welfare of the masses, for the happiness of the masses,
for the good of the masses, nor for the welfare & happiness of human & divine
beings.

"Then there is the case where Dhamma-devotee monks praise only Dhamma-devotee
monks, and not jhana monks. In that, the Dhamma-devotee monks do not shine
brightly, and the jhana monks do not shine brightly. That is not practicing for
the welfare of the masses, for the happiness of the masses, for the good of the
masses, nor for the welfare & happiness of human & divine beings.

"Then there is the case where jhana monks praise only jhana monks, and not
Dhamma-devotee monks. In that, the jhana monks do not shine brightly, and the
Dhamma-devotee monks do not shine brightly. That is not practicing for the
welfare of the masses, for the happiness of the masses, for the good of the
masses, nor for the welfare & happiness of human & divine beings.

"Thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being Dhamma-devotee monks, we
will speak in praise of jhana monks.' That's how you should train yourselves.
Why is that? Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the world, i.e.,
those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.2

"And thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being jhana monks, we will
speak in praise of Dhamma-devotee monks.' That's how you should train
yourselves. Why is that? Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the
world, i.e., those who penetrate with discernment statements of deep meaning."





#104947 	From: "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 12:47 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	kenhowardau
  	

Dear Nina,

Please accept my condolences for your loss. Reading your conversation with Sarah
I was struck by the fact that the Dhamma overcomes grief, not when we want
(desire) it to, but when it teaches us to see the presently arisen dhamma. The
type of dhamma makes no difference, grief or joy, desire or non-desire; it is
just the presently arisen dhamma.

Ken H



> N: As you said before, Dhamma is the best medicine in times of grief.
> Only this point is complex: he is already reborn. It is another
> being, no use to think that it is my brother who is reborn. No
> annihilation and no eternalism, but the Middle Way is hard to
> understand, as I wrote to Han.
> ---------
> S: Yes, I was about to say the same - also to Ell when she mentioned KS's
comment when her mother died. Another name, another form, no longer one's
brother or mother, no person at all. Just cittas, cetasikas and rupas...it is
the understanding of these that is the Middle Way. "Like the wind.....", we
meet, we associate and we part. In the end, all alone with the citta now....
We're so fortunate to have had good friends, good family associates in this
life...
> ...
> N: Yes, in between there can be understanding. When writing about
> Abhidhamma I forget all about my dead brother.
> -----
> S: I find the same - when reflecting on the Dhamma or others' concerns, no
thought of 'me' and 'my losses':).
>
> We're so fortunate to know a little about this good medicine.
>



#104948 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 1:03 pm
Subject: What does "Considering" dhammas actually mean? Thinking, labeling? 	truth_aerator
  	

Dear Nina, all,

Thank you for your reply,

>Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Alex,
> -------
> N: Jon and others answered but I may add something. Study here is >not study
from books as Ken O also explained before. It is much >more: it  is carefully
considering what one has learnt about seeing >that is conditioned by eyesense
and visible object, seeing that >appears now.

When you say "considering what one has learned", could you (or someone else)
please elaborate what you mean by that?

First, is this considering happens as that event occurs, or long time
afterwards. Ex: You think what has happened earlier that day "such and such has
occured, it was just this citta and those cetasikas, etc etc"?

What does *Considering* mean?
Do you internally think? "eye plus visible form is a condition for
eye-consciousness. Such and such cetasikas have arose."

Word *considering* sounds like thinking and analyzing.


With metta,

Alex


#104949 	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu.samahita@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 3:42 pm
Subject: Reaching Peace... 	bhikkhu.sama...
  	

Friends:

Reaching Final Peace of Mind:

A deity once spoke this verse to the Blessed One:
Life inevitably ceases, short is the span of life.
No safe shelter exists for one prone to ageing..
Seeing this danger of certain death, one should
do meritorious deeds, which brings happiness...

The Exalted Buddha responded:
Life inevitably ceases, short is the span of life.
No safe shelter exists for one prone to ageing..
Seeing this danger of certain Death, one should
drop the fleshy bait of this evanescent world!

Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 2
  <http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507>
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507
  <http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html



Have a nice & noble day!




Reaching Peace...




#104950 	From: Vince <cerovzt@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 5:06 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	cerovzt@...
  	

Dear Nina

you wrote:

> N: Kamma is a dhamma, it is the cetasika volition or intention. It is
> not conventional, but it can be explained by way of conventional terms.

so allow me a little disagreement with that!!. Maybe you have not
understood my point.
From the little what I know, Kamma in itself is not a dhamma but just
conditionality, a logical process to be grasped for the understanding.
In that way we are forced to say that kamma is cetana or any other dhamma.
Kamma is a natural law embracing  5 types of conditionality (niyamas).

In case the kamma would be understood as a another dhamma, Which
dhamma it can be?. It is not one of the 4 paramattha-dhamma.


> Kamma-condiiton is one type of condiiton, but there are twentyfour
> classes in all. Conascence-condiiton is another type of condition we
> discussed already.

but, Just another more?. Any dhamma we can conceive it always exists
by co-arising. Except nibbana.  Then I understand it is not just one
more but the more important of all them.
It's the core of Buddha investigation to unveil D.O.:

"Then the thought occurred to me, 'This consciousness turns back at
name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is
birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising, i.e., from
name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from
consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From
name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media... Thus
is the origination of this entire mass of stress. Origination,
origination.' *Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose,
knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things
never heard before.*"
*SN 12.65 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html


> V: What is the condition of ignorance?
> ------
> N: Not hearing the true Dhamma, and unnwise attention.

yes, most times. And Suttas shows it is also by co-arising:

"Ignorance is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon: inconstant,
compounded, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to
passing away, subject to fading, subject to cessation."
SN 12.20



> BTW you use the word ambi, is this a Spanish word?

sorry, maybe it was a misspelling. I mean "ambit"


> In order to understand the D.O. it is very important to remember that
> cittas can be classified as four jaatis (nature or class):
> Kusala
> akusala
> vipaaka
> kiriya (neither kusala nor akusala).
> Vipaaka can be akusala vipaaka, the result of akusala kamma, or
> kusala vipaaka, the result of kusala kamma. However, they are
> together one class, since they are merely result.
> More important than vipaaka are our reactions to it which may be
> kusala citta or akusala citta. When kusala citta or akusala citta
> arise, more kusala and akusala are accumulated. They fall away but
> they are not lost. The are conditions for future arisings of kusala
> citta and akusala citta.

in this point, I understand the D.O. in all the extent is a long
cooking because endless phenomena and their speed. Only arhants can be
aware of all them.
At the same time, I understand that there is cake in the table so we
can try it. Some people ask about ingredients before, other people
later. On the contrary Dhamma would not be present in the world for
the many different persons.
I don't see contradiction between Abdhidhamma and pointing co-arising
and emptiness directly. Well, I try not to see it. Anyway, meanwhile
the checking and investigation is not akusala, I understand.



best wishes,


Vince.



#104951 	From: "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 6:44 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	kenhowardau
  	

Hi Mike

------
M: > Of course, as I've tried to explain in some posts, all teachers I know
obviously teach anatta and that ultimately there is "no control" (to summarize
your position rather simplistically).
-----------------

Sorry to be argumentative, Mike, but do they teach anatta? Or do they brush over
it?

Some of the meditators at DSG will admit that anatta does not influence their
practice to any great extent. One (perhaps I shouldn't mention his name) has
claimed that anatta was not meant to become relevant until the end of the path
(arahantship). You will probably disagree with that, but I wonder, has anatta
made your practice *profoundly* different from all forms of practice -
meditation, worship, prayer?

The "no control position" that you refer is in the Tipitaa, but it is spelt out
most clearly in the ancient commentaries. It is profoundly different from all
other forms of practice.  And the thing that makes it profoundly different is
anatta.

-------------------
M: > However, they clearly differ from the "A Sujin followers" position on how
to gain a deep understanding of these issues.
-------------------

Yes they do. I hope you won't mind my saying this, but meditation is a curious
way of gaining understanding, isn't it? I mean, in any other context
understanding is gained when 1) we are taught something 2) we listen carefully
to what is being taught, 3) we carefully consider it, and 4) we put it into
practice.

In popular Buddhism, however, understanding is supposedly gained by sitting in a
particular way, concentrating on an object (kasina etc), or by just relaxing and
sitting quietly.

Doesn't that sound more like a religious rite, or ritual, than a way of gaining
understanding?

--------------------------------
M: > Frankly, it doesn't bother me too much, since I obviously have much more
confidence in my teachers than I do in people who I only know through the
Internet. However, since my understanding of the Dhamma is far from perfect, I
am curious whether there are other teachers who have come to similar
conclusions.
---------------------------------

Are you looking for the teaching with most followers? Safety in numbers? :-)

Ken H


#104952 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 7:46 pm
Subject: study and actual seeing the reality 	truth_aerator
  	

Hello KenH, Jon, KenH all,

> "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:
>
> Yes they do. I hope you won't mind my saying this, but meditation >is a
curious way of gaining understanding, isn't it? I mean, in any >other context
understanding is gained when 1) we are taught >something 2) we listen carefully
to what is being taught, 3) we >carefully consider it, and 4) we put it into
practice.

I find it curious that one can know the taste of the food by reading the menu.
It is interesting how one can be skillful in swimming without actually swimming,
or an arm chair scholar (who never actually done what he has studied a lot)
teaching how to survive in wilderness and criticizing those teachers who have
been there and done that.

It is one to thing to say that "such and such citta has such and such
characteristics.".  It is quite different to actually experience it, and have
skill to deal with it in Akusala way. People say anatta, anatta! But how is it
actually seen in daily life?

> In popular Buddhism, however, understanding is supposedly gained by >sitting
in a particular way, concentrating on an object (kasina >etc), or by just
relaxing and sitting quietly.
>
>
> Ken H

In meditation one develops (bhavana) the causes for wholesome states, maggaphala
and so on.  Even most samatha oriented teachers do teach about
anicca-dukkha-anatta, satipatthana and so on.

Actually meditative Buddhism is very rare. Mostly people either do rituals or
intellectually study it. Very few people do the hard work.


Reading about wilderness survival (for example) is one thing, but actually being
able to survive in the wilderness when something happens - is another. In fact a
scholarly person may know 10x than the "street smart" person, and yet when the
situation happens - be totally lost due to lack of REAL experience. Did anyone
ever become a martial arts champion solely due to reading books? He would get it
handed to him in the real first round by someone who can barely read (but has
practiced hard).

Do you understand the analogues?

Direct experience is much more different than reading about it, even if the
theoretical information is correct.

Meditation is about putting understanding from theory into practice.
What good is the theory if it can't make the mind wise ,peaceful and
concentrated in samma-samadhi?



With metta,

Alex


#104953 	From: "Mike" <mikenz66@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 8:05 pm
Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary 	mikenz66
  	

Hi Ken
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:
> Hi Mike
>
> ------
> M: > Of course, as I've tried to explain in some posts, all teachers I know
obviously teach anatta and that ultimately there is "no control" (to summarize
your position rather simplistically).
> -----------------
>
> KenH: Sorry to be argumentative, Mike, but do they teach anatta? Or do they
brush over it?

Mike: Naturally not. But what about you? Do you think that Mahasi Sayadaw, Ven
Nyanatiloka, Bhikkhu Bodhi, and so on don't understand anatta?

...

> --------------------------------
> M: > Frankly, it doesn't bother me too much, since I obviously have much more
confidence in my teachers than I do in people who I only know through the
Internet. However, since my understanding of the Dhamma is far from perfect, I
am curious whether there are other teachers who have come to similar
conclusions.
> ---------------------------------
>
> KenH: Are you looking for the teaching with most followers? Safety in numbers?
:-)

No, I'm trying to take the position of the AS followers seriously and  I'm
asking for some reference material. It would be curious if there were no other
teachers who reached the same conclusions.

Metta
Mike


#104954 	From: "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 9:29 pm
Subject: Re: study and actual seeing the reality 	kenhowardau
  	

Hi Alex,

------------
<. . .>
A: > I find it curious that one can know the taste of the food by reading the
menu.
------------

So do I! Very curious! Has anyone ever claimed that such a thing was possible?
Or are you just saying you would find it curious if someone did claim it?

----------------------------
A: > It is interesting how one can be skillful in swimming without actually
swimming,
----------------------------

It would indeed be interesting if it were possible.

Sorry to doubt your word, Alex, but I don't think it is very possible. Which
particular swimming instructor teaches that way? Why doesn't he use a pool?

What is his method? Is it meditation? Are you saying that meditators can become
expert swimmers without actually swimming?

--------------------------------
A: > or an arm chair scholar (who never actually done what he has studied a
lot)teaching how to survive in wilderness and criticizing those teachers who
have been there and done that.
---------------------------------

Terrible! I can understand your disgust, Alex. Which armchair scholar of
wilderness survival are you talking about, BTW?

What if he were to meditate? Would that help?

-------------------------------------
A: > It is one to thing to say that "such and such citta has such and such
characteristics.". It is quite different to actually experience it, and have
skill to deal with it in Akusala way.
-------------------------------------

Seriously, I think we should look more closely at this to see what we are
talking about.

Are you saying that the characteristics of cittas, cetasikas and rupas are hard
to experience? I would disagree with that. Some dhamma are being directly
experienced right now, while we are talking. None of them is being directly
experienced by panna, unfortunately. But maybe, if we are very lucky, panna will
create and experience a *concept* of a dhamma. That would be a good start,
wouldn't it?

What do you mean by "and have skill to deal with it in a kusala way?" Dhammas
come and go in a trillionth of a second; I can't imagine what sort of "dealing"
we would do in such a short time.

BTW, when you are meditating dhammas come and go at exactly the same speed; you
can't slow them down.

------------------------
A: > People say anatta, anatta! But how is it actually seen in daily life?
------------------------

Well, it is not visible object, so it is not seen with the eye. But it can be
seen (experienced) by panna. Again, actual direct experiencing is out of the
question for us, at this time, but we can see anatta indirectly. We can have a
theoretical understanding of it.
Provided, that is, we have been paying attention in Abhidhamma class!
:-)
Ken H


#104955 	From: Lukas <szmicio@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 10:40 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Notes about the three rounds, no 2. 	szmicio
  	

Dear Nina,
I did left your 4 Noble Truths series for another time. Now I am starting to go
throught it.

Best wishes
Lukas

--- On Thu, 1/28/10, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

> From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
> Subject: [dsg] Notes about the three rounds, no 2.
> To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, January 28, 2010, 2:31 PM
> Dear Lukas,
>
> This is a post by Sarah:
> Sarah:
> <Acharn Sujin referred very often to these three
> “rounds” or phases and
> explained that without the first phase, the firm
> understanding of 
> what the
> four noble Truths are, there cannot be the second phase,
> the 
> performing of
> the task, that is, satipatthana, nor the third phase, the
> fruit of the
> practice, that is, the penetration of the true nature of
> realities.
>
> With regard to the first phase, she said that there should
> be the firm
> intellectual understanding of the first noble Truth, and
> that means
> understanding that there is dhamma at this moment, that
> everything that
> appears is dhamma. Dukkha is the characteristic of dhamma
> that arises 
> and
> falls away at this moment.
>
> We cannot control what has arisen because of conditions. It
> only 
> lasts for
> an extremely short time, it has to fall away. When seeing
> appears there
> cannot be hearing, hearing must have fallen away. There can
> only be one
> citta at a time experiencing an object. Seeing, hearing or
> thinking are
> insignificant dhammas that arise just for an extremely
> short moment and
> are then gone. They are impermanent and thus dukkha,
> unsatisfactory.
>
> As regards the second noble Truth, we should thoroughly
> understand that
> attachment is the cause of dukkha. We should realize it
> when we cling to
> the idea of self. When we are seeing, thinking or
> considering the Dhamma
> there may be an idea of self who does so. When we are
> looking for 
> ways and
> means to have more awareness, we cling to wrong practice, a
> form of 
> wrong
> view, ditthi, which causes us to deviate from the right
> Path. Wrong
> practice prevents us from naturally developing the
> understanding of
> realities. It is necessary to have a keener and more
> refined 
> knowledge of
> attachment, otherwise it cannot be eradicated. We can find
> out that it
> arises countless times, more often than we ever thought.
>
> As regards the third noble Truth, this is nibbana, and
> nibbana means the
> end of clinging and all other defilements. We should have
> the firm
> intellectual understanding that detachment and the
> eradication of
> defilements is the goal. We should be convinced that it is
> possible to
> attain this goal if we follow the right Path.
>
> As regards the fourth Noble Truth, the way leading to the
> end of dukkha,
> we should have the firm understanding that the development
> of
> satipatthana is the only way leading to this goal. We
> should understand
> the difference between right view and wrong view. When we
> are really
> convinced that there is no other way but the development
> of 
> satipatthana,
> we shall not deviate from the right Path. Thus, we should
> not follow 
> after
> the past nor desire for the future, we should be aware of
> any reality
> appearing now.>
> (end quote)
> --------
> Nina.


#104956 	From: Lukas <szmicio@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 10:47 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 7. 	szmicio
  	

Dear Nina,
There's a lot of things I knew long long ago, but still not satipatthana.



--- On Thu, 1/28/10, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

> From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
> Subject: [dsg] Three rounds, Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 7.
> To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, January 28, 2010, 2:43 PM
> Dear Lukas,
> Text:
>   Dhammacakkappavattanasutta:
>
> And then on the setting in motion of the Wheel of the
> Dhamma by the 
> Blessed One, the terrestrial devas raised a shout - "The
> unsurpassed 
> Wheel of Dhamma has been set in motion by the Blessed One,
> at 
> Baranasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana, and this cannot be
> turned 
> back by any recluse or Brahmin or deva or Mara or Brahma or
> by anyone 
> in the world".
> --------
> Pali: Pavattite ca pana Bhagavataa dhammacakke Bhummaa
> devaa 
> saddamanussaavesu.m - "eta.m Bhagavataa Baaraa.nasiya.m
> Isipatane 
> Migadaaye anuttara.m dhammacakka.m pavattita.m
> appa.tivattiya.m 
> sama.nena vaa braahma.nena vaa devena vaa maarena vaa
> brahmunaa vaa 
> kenaci vaa lokasmin"ti.
> ---------
> Commentary: co: The Wheel of Dhamma (dhammacakka): this
> is 
> penetrative understanding as well as the knowledge of
> teaching. As to 
> penetrative understanding, this understanding of the four
> truths in 
> twelve modes arose in him while sitting under the
> Bodhitree. As to 
> the knowledge of teaching the truth in twelve modes, this
> was set in 
> motion when he was sitting in Isipattana. These two kinds
> of 
> knowledge were in the heart of the person with the ‘Ten
> Powers’ (dasa 
> bala).
> The Wheel of Dhamma was set in motion when the blessed One
> proclaimed 
> his teaching.
> In so far as the Thera ‘Konda~n~na who has 
> understood’ (a~n~naasiko.n.da~n~na) , together with
> eighteen times 
> ten million (ko.tis) brahmans was established in the
> fruition of the 
> ‘stream-enterer’ (sotaapanna), in so far the Blessed
> One set in 
> motion this Wheel of Dhamma, and because of this
> establishment it is 
> said of the Wheel that it is set in motion.
> ----------
> N: The Ten Powers (dasabala) are explained in the ‘Middle
> Length 
> Sayings, sutta 12, Mahaasiihanadasutta (I, 70, 71).These
> are 
> knowledge of kamma and its result,  knowledge of the
> ‘world’. which 
> is, as the commentary states, the world of the khandhas,
> aayatanas 
> (sensefields) and dhaatus (elements). These powers also
> include 
> knowledge of his former lives, knowing the passing away and
> rebirth 
> of other beings, knowledge of the disposition and the
> faculties of 
> other beings, etc. .
> ------

L: But dasabala are only atributes to the Buddha, am I right?

Best wishes
Lukas


#104957 	From: "Lukas" <szmicio@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 11:05 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Notes about the three rounds, no 3. 	szmicio
  	

Dear Fabian,

> Some people believe we have to develop the understanding by learning or
reflecting about Dhamma, while in my knowledge the understanding would be
developed by itself if we practice right concentration intensively.. consider
all conditions are right... in other words we are not necessarily thinking about
Dhamma while practising... what do you think about this?

L: Without right understanding we can be easily taken in. It's like
concentrating on feeling/vedana. It looks like the feeling is what we feel now
like sesnsation on the hand, hardness when touch solid object. But in reality we
are just taken in by nimitta. This is ignorance.

Best wishes
Lukas


#104958 	From: "Lukas" <szmicio@...>
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2010 11:09 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Notes about the three rounds, no 4. 	szmicio
  	

Dear Nina,
This is not repetitious at all.

Best wishes
Lukas

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Lukas,
>
> I continue with the notes on the three rounds but some of them may be
> repetitious. But I shall post them all the same.
>
> N: When sacca ??na gradually develops it can condition the
> arising of satipatt?na, and then kicca ??na, knowledge of the task,
> begins
> to develop. When we are convinced that there is no other way leading to
> enlightenment but the development of satipatth?na, we shall not
> deviate from
> the right Path. The right Path is the fourth noble Truth and this
> lead to
> the cessation of dukkha, nibb?na, which is the third noble Truth.
> Acharn Sujin stressed the importance of the three phases because they
> make
> it apparent that
> sati-sampaja??a can only arise when there is a firm
> foundation knowledge of the objects of satipatth?na and the way of its
> development. It reminds us that pa??? is gradually developed from
> life to
> life. The level of intellectual understanding, pariyatti, conditions
> awareness and understanding of the characteristics of nama and rupa that
> appear now. This is the
> beginning of patipatti, the level of practice and this will
> eventually lead
> to the realization of the truth, pativedha. Very gradually n?ma can
> be known
> as n?ma and r?pa as r?pa, and stages of insight can arise, but we do not
> know when they will arise. It takes many lives, but we should not be
> impatient.
>
> ---------
> Nina.
>
>


#104959 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 1:27 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	nilovg
  	

Dear Vince,
Op 5-feb-2010, om 2:06 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven:

>> N: Kamma is a dhamma, it is the cetasika volition or intention. It is
>> not conventional, but it can be explained by way of conventional
>> terms.
>
> so allow me a little disagreement with that!!. Maybe you have not
> understood my point.
> From the little what I know, Kamma in itself is not a dhamma but just
> conditionality, a logical process to be grasped for the understanding.
> In that way we are forced to say that kamma is cetana or any other
> dhamma.
> Kamma is a natural law embracing  5 types of conditionality (niyamas).
>
> In case the kamma would be understood as a another dhamma, Which
> dhamma it can be?. It is not one of the 4 paramattha-dhamma.
-------
N: Cetasika, and according to the suttas volition, cetanaa. I just
quote from Ven. Nyanatiloka's dictionary:
<kamma:   (Sanskrit : karma): 'action', correctly speaking denotes
the wholesome and unwholesome volitions (kusala- and akusala-cetana-)
and their concomitant mental factors, causing rebirth and shaping the
destiny of beings. These kammical volitions (kamma cetana-) become
manifest as wholesome or unwholesome actions by body (ka-ya-kamma),
speech (vaci--kamma) and mind (mano-kamma). Thus the Buddhist term
'kamma' by no means signifies the result of actions, and quite
certainly not the fate of man, or perhaps even of whole nations (the
so-called wholesale or mass-kamma), misconceptions which, through the
influence of theosophy, have become widely spread in the West.

"Volition (cetana-), o monks, is what I call action (cetana-ham.
bhikkhave kammam. vada-mi), for through volition one performs the
action by body, speech or mind. . There is kamma (action), o monks,
that ripens in hell.... Kamma that ripens in the animal world.. Kamma
that ripens in the world of men.... Kamma that ripens in the heavenly
world.... Threefold, however, is the fruit of kamma: ripening during
the life-time (dit.t.ha-dhamma-vedani-ya kamma), ripening in the
next birth (upapajja-vedani-ya kamma), ripening in later births
(apara-pariya-vedani-ya kamma) ...." (A.VI, 63).

*******
Nina.



#104960 	From: Lukas <szmicio@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 1:39 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	szmicio
  	

Dear Vince and Nina,

>These kammical volitions (kamma cetana-) become
>manifest as wholesome or unwholesome actions by body (ka-ya-kamma),
>speech (vaci--kamma) and mindnt. (mano-kamma) .

L: It can be know as kayasankhara, vacisankhara, and manosankhara. Sankhara
means here sankhara khandha. The group that has 'active power'. This is not you
that make kamma to arise. This is only sankhara khandha that is conditioned
element. When it arises, it's gone now.

Best wishes
Lukas


#104961 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 5:47 am
Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 15. 	nilovg
  	

Dear friends,

The accumulation of the ten Perfections together with the development
of right understanding of realities is the application of the
Buddha?s teachings in daily life. There may not be mindfulness of
ultimate realities very often, but there are many opportunities to
accumulate other kinds of kusala, the Perfections. It is encouraging
to know that all kinds and levels of kusala can be Perfections,
helpful conditions to reach the goal. Even when we help other people
in giving them good advice or in consoling them when they are in
distress can be an opportunity for the accumulation of the
Perfections, conditions to diminish selfishness and other defilements.
The Development of the eightfold Path which leads to enlightenment
seems to be far-fetched for an ordinary person. It is such a long way
before the goal can be reached. There will be more confidence in the
Buddha?s teachings when one sees that what he taught can be verified
and applied in one?s own life. The development of understanding can
only be very gradual, just as learning a new skill such as a foreign
language has to be very gradual. The Perfection of patience is
indispensable for the development of right understanding of realities.

******
Nina.



#104962 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 6:09 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	nilovg
  	

Dear Lukas,
Op 5-feb-2010, om 10:39 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven:

> It can be know as kayasankhara, vacisankhara, and manosankhara.
> Sankhara means here sankhara khandha.

-------
N: Sa"nkhaara has several meanings in different contexts.
Sa"nkhaarakkhandha includes all cetasikas, except feeling and sa~n~naa.
As to kayasankhara, vacisankhara, and manosankhara, quote from the
Buddhist Dictionar, Ven. Nyanatiloka:

<1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination,
(pat.iccasamuppa-da, q.v.), san.kha-ra has the active aspect,
'forming, and signifies kamma (q.v.), i.e. wholesome or unwholesome
volitional activity (cetana-) of body (ka-ya-s.), speech (vaci--s.) or
mind (citta- or mano-s.). This definition occurs, e.g. at S. XII, 2,
27. For s. in this sense, the word 'kamma-formation' has been coined
by the author. In other passages, in the same context, s. is defined
by reference to (a) meritorious kamma-formations
(puñña-bhisan.kha-ra), (b) demeritorious k.
(apuññabhisan.kha-ra), (c) imperturbable k.
(a-neñja-bhisan.kha-ra), e.g. in S. XII, 51; D. 33. This threefold
division covers karmic activity in all spheres of existence: the
meritorious kamma-formations extend to the sensuous and the fine-
material sphere, the demeritorious ones only to the sensuous sphere,
and the 'imperturbable' only to the immaterial sphere.

2. The aforementioned three terms, ka-ya-, vaci-- and citta-s. are
sometimes used in quite a different sense, namely as (1) bodily
function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M. 10), (2) verbal
function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking, (3) mental-
function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M. 44). See
nirodhasama-patti.>

******
Nina.




#104963 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 6:17 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 7. 	nilovg
  	

Dear Lukas.
Op 5-feb-2010, om 7:47 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven:

> L: But dasabala are only atributes to the Buddha, am I right?
------
N: Only a Buddha has all ten. Other followers can have some of these,
like remembering former lives, but they do not have all, such as
knowing the dispositions of other beings.
-------
Nina.



#104964 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 6:20 am
Subject: [dsg] Notes about the three rounds, no 5. 	nilovg
  	

Dear Lukas,

When we listen to the Dhamma and consider what we hear the intellectual
understanding of realities, that is, the first phase, sacca ??na,
gradually
develops and then it can condition the arising of satipatth?na. This
means
that the second phase, knowledge of the task, kicca ??na, begins to
develop.
The practice, patipatti, is actually knowledge of the task that is to be
performed, kicca ??na. Thus, there are different levels of pa???:
intellectual understanding based on listening to the Dhamma, and pa???
accompanied by sati that is directly aware of the characteristics of
realities appearing now through one of the six doorways. These are the
dhammas we studied and considered before, but now they can gradually be
verified and directly understood. Knowing the difference between the
moment
there is no sati but only thinking about n?ma and r?pa, and the
moment there
is awareness of one characteristic of n?ma or r?pa at a time is the
beginning of the development of satipatth?na. Gradually we shall realize
n?ma as n?ma, and r?pa as r?pa, we shall realize their different
characteristics.
When one has reached the second phase, knowledge of the task or the
practice, the first phase, intellectual understanding of the truth,
is not
abandoned but develops further. One understands more deeply what the
four
noble Truths are and one sees more clearly that satipatth?na,
awareness of
what appears now is the only way leading to detachment from the idea
of self
and to nibb?na which is the end of defilements. The clinging to self is
deeply accumulated and very persistent. When pa??? develops it sees
even the
more subtle clinging to a self or the clinging to sati. A moment of
right
awareness is very short and attachment can arise in alternation with
clinging. If pa??? is not keen enough, one will deviate from the
right Path.
There cannot be immediately clear understanding of realities, but we can
begin to develop understanding of the realities we used to take for
people,
beings and things.
--------
Nina.





#104965 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 6:24 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	nilovg
  	

Dear Ken H,
Thank you. Good you remind us of the presently arisen dhamma, and
this dhamma may even be unwelcome. But as there is more understanding
of its characteristic as a mere dhamma, we do not shun it, nor select
it.
Nina.
Op 4-feb-2010, om 21:47 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven:

> Please accept my condolences for your loss. Reading your
> conversation with Sarah I was struck by the fact that the Dhamma
> overcomes grief, not when we want (desire) it to, but when it
> teaches us to see the presently arisen dhamma. The type of dhamma
> makes no difference, grief or joy, desire or non-desire; it is just
> the presently arisen dhamma.





#104966 	From: "chandrafabian" <chandrafabian@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 6:23 am
Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Notes about the three rounds, no 3. 	chandrafabian
  	

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Fabian,
> Op 30-jan-2010, om 7:28 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven:
>
> > Some people believe we have to develop the understanding by
> > learning or reflecting about Dhamma, while in my knowledge the
> > understanding would be developed by itself if we practice right
> > concentration intensively.. consider all conditions are right... in
> > other words we are not necessarily thinking about Dhamma while
> > practising... what do you think about this?
> -------
> N: First we have to listen to the Dhamma and consider carefully what
> we learn. Then pariyatti develops more and more, but very gradually.
> It can be a condition for direct awareness and understanding of any
> reality appearing now, be it seeing, visible object, thinking,
> aversion, any reality. No selection.
> It is right understanding of the level of pariyatti that conditions
> pa.tipatti, direct awareness, and it is not so that intensive
> development of concentration could lead to direct understanding.
> Concentration on what? Concentration is extremely short, and there is
> no person or self who could develop it. It accompanies right
> understanding, since it accompanies each moment of citta. It is of
> different degrees and of different kinds, depending on the citta it
> accompanies.
> Direct awareness and understanding is not thinking about realities.
> But a moment of right understanding, or practice, is very momentary,
> and in between thinking arises, nobody can control what reality
> arises and appears. Also thinking can be understood as a conditioned
> reality.
> In short, right understanding should be emphasized, not
> concentration. But concentration accompanies right understanding,
> because of the appropriate conditions, not because 'we' try to
> develop it.
>
> --------
> Nina.
>
>
>
>
Dear Nina and Lukas,
of course I agree we must have some form of guidance from someone more
knowledgeable than us the practitioner, to begin with.
But during practicing the understanding (panna) develop with our experiencing
diferent kinds of phenomena, not thinking of Dhamma.
But I believe the experience we've had during vipassana (sorry I mean Vipassana
concentration) practicing would lead to understanding on how our mind and body
works as we progress along.

Maybe we talk different kind of undertanding, What I mean is understanding on
the characteristics of phenomena.
And... of course learning Dhamma/pariyatti is very helpful to the development of
practice, but still in my opinion the understanding we aqcuired during actual
practice/patipatti sometimes have different aspects than the understanding in
Dhammaclass.

with metta,
Fabian


#104967 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 1:29 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: study and actual seeing the reality 	upasaka_howard
  	

Hi, Ken -

     Ken, you are a lovely guy. In this post,  you're being a lovely guy who
is being consistently sarcastic in replying to  metaphorical speech. For
just this time, I'd appreciate it if you would put  aside heartfelt opinions
to seriously consider the issues being  raised.

In a message dated 2/5/2010 12:30:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kenhowardau@... writes:


Hi  Alex,

------------
<. . .>
A: > I find it curious that  one can know the taste of the food by reading
the  menu.
------------

So do I! Very curious! Has anyone ever claimed  that such a thing was
possible? Or are you just saying you would find it  curious if someone did claim
it?
--------------------------------------------------------
     Of course, you DO understand, Ken, that there is an  analogy being
made, and that, indeed, no one would be so foolish to claim that.  But playing
this game, Ken, isn't really answering the point being made.
---------------------------------------------------



----------------------------
A: > It is interesting how  one can be skillful in swimming without
actually  swimming,
----------------------------

It would indeed be  interesting if it were possible.

Sorry to doubt your word, Alex, but I  don't think it is very possible.
Which particular swimming instructor teaches  that way? Why doesn't he use a
pool?
---------------------------------------------------
     Same comment as above.
---------------------------------------------------



What is his method? Is it meditation? Are you saying that  meditators can
become expert swimmers without actually swimming?
-------------------------------------------------------
     And, of course, you DO know two things: 1) The  purpose of mediation is
mental cultivation of calm, clarity, and relinquishment,  and 2) The Buddha
repeatedly recommended guarding the senses and meditating. He  never
reported how some monks just "happened" to sit in caves or in the forest  or at
the root of a tree or in a secluded dwelling and directed their attention
internally. He never implied that meditation typically occurred
unintentionally,  like stomach gas.
-------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------
A: > or an arm chair  scholar (who never actually done what he has studied
a lot)teaching how to  survive in wilderness and criticizing those teachers
who have been there and  done that.
---------------------------------

Terrible! I can  understand your disgust, Alex. Which armchair scholar of
wilderness survival  are you talking about, BTW?

What if he were to meditate? Would that  help?
-------------------------------------------------------
     No more than blowing one's nose helps to repair a  leaky faucet. But,
hey, jokes are an easy substitute for actually addressing a  point.
-------------------------------------------------------



-------------------------------------
A: > It is one to  thing to say that "such and such citta has such and such
characteristics.". It  is quite different to actually experience it, and
have skill to deal with it  in Akusala way.
-------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
     Okay, so Alex has dropped the metaphors and has  laid it on the line.
------------------------------------------------------------



Seriously, I think we should look more closely at this to see  what we are
talking about.

Are you saying that the characteristics of  cittas, cetasikas and rupas are
hard to experience? I would disagree with  that. Some dhamma are being
directly experienced right now, while we are  talking.
--------------------------------------------------------------
     So would I. But the experiencing is with mind in  it's usual condition:
untrained, uncultivated, unprepared, easily overcome by  the hindrances -
close to useless.
---------------------------------------------------------------

None of  them is being directly experienced by panna, unfortunately.
--------------------------------------------------------------
     Or with strong attention,  mindfulness, undistractedness, or ease. We
experience with consciousness  and concomitant mental functions that are
dull, untrained observational  tools.
-------------------------------------------------------------

But  maybe, if we are very lucky, panna will create and experience a
*concept* of a  dhamma. That would be a good start, wouldn't it?
--------------------------------------------------------------
     And here is the crux! We need, according to you, to  be LUCKY!! How's
your luck running these days, Ken? Is it better than that of  your Muslim,
Christian, Jewish, and secular neighbors? Was it the Buddha's  teaching that
merely studying, discussing, and contemplating his teachings  is exactly the
recipe for bringing on the required "luck"? What of his  urging
introspective guarding of the senses, carefully reining in the mind  and
guarding the
morality of one's actions, of engaging in right effort, and of  calming and
clearing the mind through meditative practice?
     Why do you give short shrift to kamma  (intention), a cetasika that the
Buddha put so much emphasis on, perhaps  more than any other?
---------------------------------------------------------------



What do you mean by "and have skill to deal with it in a kusala  way?"
Dhammas come and go in a trillionth of a second; I can't imagine what  sort of
"dealing" we would do in such a short time.
--------------------------------------------------------------
     What do you think cultivates mindfulness? The  Buddha has laid it out
in the suttas. Intentional sila, guarding the  senses, and engaging in
meditation lead to calm, concentration, and sustained  attention, and these
support developing mindfulness, which in turn enhances  the foregoing qualities.
Strong mindfulness doesn't come about by  chance or "luck". If you actually
do study the teachings, you will see what is  needed. The studying isn't for
it's own sake; it is for application!
-------------------------------------------------------------



BTW, when you are meditating dhammas come and go at exactly the  same
speed; you can't slow them down.
-------------------------------------------------------------
     But when mind is calmed, attentive, and not easily  distracted,
phenomena are observed more clearly.
-------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------
A: > People say anatta, anatta!  But how is it actually seen in daily  life?
------------------------

Well, it is not visible object, so it  is not seen with the eye.
--------------------------------------------------------------
     No kidding! Alex is using 'seen' to mean  "observed." Lots of people,
including yours truly, use that figure of speech.  Surely you understood what
Alex meant here, Ken, didn't you?
--------------------------------------------------------------

But it  can be seen (experienced) by panna.
--------------------------------------------------------------
     "Can" it? If what? If, as you said, we are  LUCKY???
-------------------------------------------------------------

Again,  actual direct experiencing is out of the question for us, at this
time, but we  can see anatta indirectly.
-------------------------------------------------------------
     Out of the question? Are you so certain of this?  Wouldn't it be a
truer statement to say merely that YOU cannot directly  apprehend anatta?
-------------------------------------------------------------

We can  have a theoretical understanding of it.
-----------------------------------------------------------
     We can do better than that. (But not by  LUCK!)
--------------------------------------------------------


Provided, that is, we have been paying attention in Abhidhamma  class!
:-)
----------------------------------------------------------
     We need one helluva lot more than that, Ken! In AN  8.2, the Buddha
says "Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite  conditions lead to the
acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is  basic to the holy
life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, &  culmination of that
which has already been acquired. Which eight?" He goes on to  discuss these.
They are the following:

     1) Living in apprenticeship to a  kalyanamitta,
     2) Approaching that teacher repeatedly with  questions.
     3) Achieving the twofold seclusion of body and  mind.
     4) Being virtuous and restrained by proper rules of  comportment.
     5) Retaining all admirable things heard.
     6) Engaging in right effort, arousing  persistence for abandoning the
harmful and fostering the  wholesome.
     7) Avoiding trivial speech.
     8) Remaining "focused on arising & passing  away with regard to the
five aggregates."

     Also, in AN 6.50, the Buddha teaches the following  chain of
conditionality, beginning with guarding the senses:

     Sense control -->
     Virtue -->
     Right concentration -->
     Knowledge & vision of things as they really are  -->
     Revulsion & dispassion -->
     Knowledge & vision of liberation.

     In the Kimattha Sutta, the Buddha teaches "Skillful  virtues have
freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as  their reward.
Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward.  Joy has
rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as  its
purpose, serenity as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose,  pleasure
as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration  as
its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they  actually
are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually  are as
its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has
disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Disenchantment has
dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge  &
vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its
reward."

     Finally, in the Avarana Sutta, the Buddha teaches  "Suppose there were
a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its  current swift,
carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels  leading away from
it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the  river would be
dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its  current wouldn't
be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same  way, when
a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that  overwhelm
awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will,  sloth &
torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he  is without
strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's  own
benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what  is
for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly
noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible"
----------------------------------------------------------


Ken  H
==============================
With metta,
Howard


Right Effort

"Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what  is
unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would  not
say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to
abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this
  abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would
not  say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning
of what is  unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you,
'Abandon what is  unskillful.'



"Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is
skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say 
to
you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what
  is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development
of  what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to
you,  'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is
skillful is  conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is
skillful.'"
— _AN  2.19_
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html)







#104968 	From: "chandrafabian" <chandrafabian@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 6:39 am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	chandrafabian
  	

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:
>
> Dear Bhante (and Fabian) -
>
> In a message dated 2/2/2010 8:24:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> drokpa.monk@... writes:
>
> Dear  Fabian, and all,
>
> """Empty should be empty, nothing there, if there are  something it is not
> empty"""
>
> I am not sure how much the difference  between Theravada and Mahayana
> emptiness is. But as you said above '...if  there is something it is not
empty'.
> So since Theravadins say in the analysis  the ultimate is that which
> survives analysis which are irreducible. Since  there is something which is
> irreducible, then how can there be emptiness??? I  think this was the problem
of
> Nagarjuna (happy to be corrected).
>
> With  Metta,
> Droka monk
> ============================
>     To the best of my knowledge, neither Theravada  nor Mahayana views
> emptiness as absolute nothingness. In both cases, the  emptiness is an
emptiness
> of self, core, substance, "soul", or independent  existence. In the Pali
> suttas, the Buddha taught that every element of every  aggregate is empty of a
> lasting core of self-defining nature and existence,  but he did not teach a
> stark nihilism. Neither did the Perfection of Wisdom  Sutras of Mahayana or
> their elucidator, the Mahayanist master,  Nagarjuna.
>     As the Buddha taught by allegory in the Snake Sutta  of the Sutta
> Nipata, there are fig trees (discernible phenomena), but there  are no flowers
> (self/core/substance) to be found in them. The emptiness taught  by the Buddha
> is not a nihilism, but a subtle middle-way teaching of anatta  which, in
> it's fullness, is unique to him.
>
> With metta,
> Howard
>
>
> Emptiness
>
> /He who does not find core or  substance in any of the realms of being,
> like flowers which are vainly sought in  fig trees that bear none ?" such a
> seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just  as a serpent sheds its worn-out
> skin./
>
> (From the Uraga  Sutta)
>
>
>
>
>
Dear Howard,
Sometimes i have discussion with Mahayana followers, it is  interesting to know
that they believe there is eternal consciousness, since it is eternal it is
nicca not anicca. Since it is nicca there must be some kind of everlasting
something.

Mahayana also believe there's no core or substance, because in their opinion,
everlasting consciousness (they call it alaya vinnana). has no core. But it is
everlasting, toward Parinibbana. This same consciousness would be eternal as
Dharmakaya.

With metta,
Fabian.


#104969 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 2:31 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	upasaka_howard
  	

Hi Fabian -

In a message dated 2/5/2010 9:39:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
chandrafabian@... writes:

Dear  Howard,
Sometimes i have discussion with Mahayana followers, it is   interesting to
know that they believe there is eternal consciousness, since it  is eternal
it is nicca not anicca. Since it is nicca there must be some kind  of
everlasting something.

Mahayana also believe there's no core or  substance, because in their
opinion, everlasting consciousness (they call it  alaya vinnana). has no core.
But it is everlasting, toward Parinibbana. This  same consciousness would be
eternal as Dharmakaya.

With metta,
Fabian.
==============================
     Well, not all Mahayanists are the same. ;-)
     In any case, the so-called storehouse  consciousness is somewhat akin
to what Theravada calls bhavanga-sota, and  it is a stream of experience. The
Mahayanists came up with it as a way of  comprehending what Nina calls
"accumulations." They picture kammic seeds being  passed along through it. In
Theravada, the citta-frame scheme, with seeds being  passed along and
accumulating from one citta to the next accomplishes this. I DO  think that the
alaya vijnana, which I do agree has an eternalist flavor  to it, and also the
chain-of-cittas of  Theravada, are unnecessary notions as regards accounting
for  accumulation. They both attempt to provide for continuity of
conditionality, but if conditioning-at-a-temporal-distance were accepted  - mere
"From
the arising of this comes the arising of that," such schemes  would not be
needed. I believe they are motivated by our conventional  experience with
the push-pull, physical-contact aspect of everyday  mechanics (as opposed to
the action-at-a-distance of quantum  mechanics).

With metta,
Howard


Conditionality

/"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of
that."/

(From the Bodhi Sutta, Udana 1.1)






#104970 	From: Vince <cerovzt@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 8:07 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	cerovzt@...
  	

Dear Nina

you wrote:

> N: Cetasika, and according to the suttas volition, cetanaa. I just
> quote from Ven. Nyanatiloka's dictionary:
> <kamma:   (Sanskrit : karma): 'action', correctly speaking denotes
> the wholesome and unwholesome volitions (kusala- and akusala-cetana-)
> and their concomitant mental factors,

Kamma is not a dhamma in itself. Kamma is a natural law.
Volition it's a dhamma and then also kamma.

Gravity is a natural Law. There is not gravity without objects.
In the same way, there is not kamma without dhammas.

This is the meaning of "correctly speaking".


Vince.


#104971 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 4:22 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	upasaka_howard
  	

Hi, Vince -

In a message dated 2/5/2010 11:05:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
cerovzt@... writes:

Dear  Nina

you wrote:

> N: Cetasika, and according to the suttas  volition, cetanaa. I just
> quote from Ven. Nyanatiloka's  dictionary:
> <kamma:   (Sanskrit : karma): 'action',  correctly speaking denotes
> the wholesome and unwholesome  volitions (kusala- and akusala-cetana-)
> and their concomitant  mental factors,

Kamma is not a dhamma in itself. Kamma is a natural  law.
Volition it's a dhamma and then also kamma.

Gravity is a  natural Law. There is not gravity without objects.
In the same way, there  is not kamma without dhammas.

This is the meaning of "correctly  speaking".
-----------------------------------------------------------
     You're not quite right in this, Vince.  There is a "natural law (or
cosmic principle)" of kamma that codifies  the workings of kamma and vipaka,
but the Buddha used the word 'kamma'  itself to refer to the cetasika that is
cetana/intention/volition.

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body,
  speech, & intellect."
— _AN  6.63_
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html#part-5)

-----------------------------------------------------------




Vince
===============================
With metta,
Howard


Seamless

/A change in anything is a  change in  everything/

(Anonymous)




#104972 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 9:52 am
Subject: Re: Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) 	moellerdieter
  	

Hi Howard , Jon and all,

you wrote:

I agree with you on this, Dieter`
  agree with you on this, Dieter. Consciousness, whether of a  worldling or an
ariyan, is constantly in flux, now experiencing this, now
experiencing that, and mind-as-thinking also proceeds in steps. The difference
between ariyans, especially higher ariyans, and worldlings is not that the
monkey-mind nature is gone in an ariyan. which it is not, but that the ariyan
has gained release from the mind, no longer grasping at the ungraspable.


D: thank for the comment  , Howard ..even that it was in favor  of the wrong
camp  ;-)   :

Jon: I don't read it that way. The monkey simile describes the nature of the
mind in general, rather than the restlessness of a mind with kilesa in
particular.
That nature is that it always takes an object, which means that it is nature of
the mind in general, rather than the restlessness of a mind with kilesa in
particular.
That nature is that it always takes an object, which means that it is always
taking a different object. This is just as much so in the case of the
instructed noble disciple as in the case of the uninstructed worldling (seeing,
hearing, touching, etc, with multiple processed of thinking in between
each sense-door experience).
----------------------------------------------------------
vs

D: If the monkey mind nature would still prevail with the instructed , then all
what has been said about mind development would be rather fruitless, wouldn't
it?)
  I think it is unlikely that the Buddha would describe the nature of the mind of
his noble disciples in a simile using a monkey
(swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it
grabs another branch. ...)
The monkey has no sense for wholesome direction in his swinging, is not able to
train right effort (take care for the wholesome object),
not able to ' overcome the obstacles to the mind which blind the mental vision',
i.e. the 5 hindrances (among them restlessness) , 'not able to discern clearly
the truth' , not be able to grow disentchanted with the 5 khandas and by that
dispassionate ..
in other words a fine analogy comparing the uninstructed (monkey) mind with that
of the instructed (and trained) disciple..

so, 2:1 in favor for Jon's ( and Bhikkhu Bodhi's)  interpretation .. any other
support for mine?  ;-)


I see two aspects  involved :
- which is the fitting picture  for the simile ...?  I have   this foolish group
of jumping monkeys we know from Disney' s 'Mogli ' in mind ..
just the right flavour to recall the common uninstructed mind .. unlike ' the
instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully &
appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising' .
Is that really possible with a  monkey-state of mind  ..usually blinded by
kilesa ..nivarana ...

the second aspect is the point of  mind development (bhavana): can't we expect
from the instructed disciple a mind working differently from that
of a commoner?  A mind , which  remains focused  on a wholesome course , with
guarded senses , not just picking up one object after the other ...?
Where are the fruits of mental training when the state of monkey mind would be
of general unchangeable nature, without a difference between a wordling and an
Ariyan ?

Howard you wriite '  The difference between ariyans, especially higher ariyans,
and worldlings is not that the monkey-mind nature is gone in an ariyan. which it
is not, but that the ariyan has gained release from the mind, no longer grasping
at the ungraspable'

There is a contradiction  'Ariyan has gained release from the mind'  and the
monkey -mind natures isn't gone ...besides that  the disciples of the Noble Ones
were adressed , not yet gained  release completely  but  still attending
carefully .. D.O.)

Well , reminds me on the recently  quoted Cunda Sutta   ..
'Then there is the case where jhana monks disparage Dhamma(s)-devotee monks,
saying, 'These people say, "We are Dhamma (s ?)-devotees, we are
Dhamma(s)-devotees,' but they are excitable, boisterous, unsteady, mouthy, loose
in their talk, muddled in their mindfulness, unalert, unconcentrated, their
minds wandering, their senses uncontrolled. Why, indeed, are they Dhamma(s)
devotees'
I added the (s) as a suggestion ;-)

with Metta Dieter




#104973 	From: Lukas <szmicio@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 10:43 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	szmicio
  	

Dear Nina,

>2. The aforementioned three terms, ka-ya-, vaci-- and citta-s. are
>sometimes used in quite a different sense, namely as (1) bodily
>function, i.e. in-and-out-breathin g (e.g. M. 10), (2) verbal
>function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking, (3) mental-
>function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M. 44). See
>nirodhasama-patti.

L: Yes, but in the context of patticasamupada this can be different.
kayasankhara, vacisankhara and manosankhara. This is activity of body, activity
of speach and mind.
I feel it like all bodily actions are conditioned, they happen because of
ignorance. The same with all speach activities and mental activities, they are
not ours, they are conditioned by moha.

Best wishes
Lukas


#104974 	From: Lukas <szmicio@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 10:56 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	szmicio
  	

>L: Yes, but in the context of patticasamupada this can be different.
>kayasankhara, vacisankhara and manosankhara. This is activity of body,
>activity of speach and mind.
>I feel it like all bodily actions are conditioned, they happen because of
>ignorance. The same with all speach activities and mental activities, they >are
not ours, they are conditioned by moha.

L: We can also learn it in life. Not merely speak.
Not me now,just different moments of doing or non-doing.

Best wishes
Lukas


#104975 	From: "Lukas" <szmicio@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 10:53 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 7. 	szmicio
  	

Dear Nina,

> > L: But dasabala are only atributes to the Buddha, am I right?
> ------
> N: Only a Buddha has all ten. Other followers can have some of these,
> like remembering former lives, but they do not have all, such as
> knowing the dispositions of other beings.
> -------

L: And Sariputta had all of them?

I am not sure but does dasabala are ~nanas listed in Path of Discrimination? The
only ~nanas Buddha have?

Best wishes
Lukas


#104976 	From: "Lukas" <szmicio@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 11:05 am
Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Notes about the three rounds, no 3. 	szmicio
  	

Dear Fabian and Nina,


> Dear Nina and Lukas,
> of course I agree we must have some form of guidance from someone more
knowledgeable than us the practitioner, to begin with.

L: It can be a good friend.

> But during practicing the understanding (panna) develop with our experiencing
diferent kinds of phenomena, not thinking of Dhamma.

L: Yes, not thinking of Dhamma. But this is also not I who achive or experience
something. The goal is to have less dukkha in life.
What you call development or meditation is actually a few moments of yoniso
manasikara, wise attention.

Best wishes
Lukas


#104977 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 6:14 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) 	upasaka_howard
  	

Hi, Dieter -

In a message dated 2/5/2010 12:52:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
moellerdieter@... writes:

Hi  Howard , Jon and all,

you wrote:

I agree with you on this,  Dieter`
agree with you on this, Dieter. Consciousness, whether of a   worldling or
an ariyan, is constantly in flux, now experiencing this, now
experiencing that, and mind-as-thinking also proceeds in steps. The
difference between ariyans, especially higher ariyans, and worldlings is not 
that
the monkey-mind nature is gone in an ariyan. which it is not, but that  the
ariyan has gained release from the mind, no longer grasping at the
ungraspable.


D: thank for the comment  , Howard ..even that it  was in favor  of the
wrong camp  ;-)   :
---------------------------------------------------
     LOLOL! My face is red! There are no camps, here,  though - only points
of view, yours ... and the correct one! ;-))
-------------------------------------------------



Jon: I don't read it that way. The monkey simile describes the  nature of
the mind in general, rather than the restlessness of a mind with  kilesa in
particular.
That nature is that it always takes an object,  which means that it is
nature of the mind in general, rather than the  restlessness of a mind with
kilesa in
particular.
That nature is that  it always takes an object, which means that it is
always taking a different  object. This is just as much so in the case of the
instructed noble  disciple as in the case of the uninstructed worldling
(seeing, hearing,  touching, etc, with multiple processed of thinking in
between
each  sense-door  experience).
----------------------------------------------------------
vs

D: If the monkey mind nature would still prevail with the instructed ,
then all what has been said about mind development would be rather fruitless,
wouldn't it?)
I think it is unlikely that the Buddha would describe the  nature of the
mind of his noble disciples in a simile using a monkey
(swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it,
it grabs another branch. ...)
The monkey has no sense for wholesome  direction in his swinging, is not
able to train right effort (take care for  the wholesome object),
not able to ' overcome the obstacles to the mind  which blind the mental
vision', i.e. the 5 hindrances (among them  restlessness) , 'not able to
discern clearly the truth' , not be able to grow  disentchanted with the 5
khandas and by that dispassionate ..
in other  words a fine analogy comparing the uninstructed (monkey) mind
with that of the  instructed (and trained) disciple..

so, 2:1 in favor for Jon's ( and  Bhikkhu Bodhi's)  interpretation .. any
other support for mine?   ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------
     Again, I apologize for my mistake as to who said  what.
-----------------------------------------------------------




I see two aspects  involved :
- which is the  fitting picture  for the simile ...?  I have   this
foolish group of jumping monkeys we know from Disney' s 'Mogli ' in mind ..
just the right flavour to recall the common uninstructed mind .. unlike '
the instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully &
appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising' .
Is that really  possible with a  monkey-state of mind  ..usually blinded by
kilesa  ..nivarana ...

the second aspect is the point of  mind development  (bhavana): can't we
expect from the instructed disciple a mind working  differently from that
of a commoner?  A mind , which  remains  focused  on a wholesome course ,
with guarded senses , not just picking  up one object after the other ...?
Where are the fruits of mental training  when the state of monkey mind
would be of general unchangeable nature, without  a difference between a
wordling and an Ariyan ?
---------------------------------------------------------------
     The mind of an ariyan is, of course, different from  that of a
worldling, but the main difference, I believe, is the matter of degree  of
relinquishment and detachment and calm. But in any case, thinking proceeds  from
limb
to limb, and consciousness, at least as conceptualized, proceeds from
object to object.
     An argument favoring your perspective could well be  made, Dieter. That
would be that a monkey mind, is a mind that strongly clings  to things,
grasping onto one "branch" after another. But that is not how I  understand the
simile, though, of course I could be wrong. I understand it to  refer to
the constant moving on of consciousness and thought, and that is how  all
mentality is except for an arahant who has momentarily "stepped  out" or one who
has permanently passed on. All conditioned phenomena are in  flux, and that
includes the conditioned consciousness and thought even of  arahants.
--------------------------------------------------------------------



Howard you wriite '  The difference between ariyans,  especially higher
ariyans, and worldlings is not that the monkey-mind nature  is gone in an
ariyan. which it is not, but that the ariyan has gained release  from the mind,
no longer grasping at the ungraspable'

There is a  contradiction  'Ariyan has gained release from the mind'  and
the  monkey -mind natures isn't gone ...besides that  the disciples of the
Noble Ones were adressed , not yet gained  release completely   but  still
attending carefully .. D.O.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
     By "release" I mean a relative degree of  detachment.
-------------------------------------------------------------



Well , reminds me on the recently  quoted Cunda  Sutta   ..
'Then there is the case where jhana monks disparage  Dhamma(s)-devotee
monks, saying, 'These people say, "We are Dhamma (s  ?)-devotees, we are
Dhamma(s)-devotees,' but they are excitable, boisterous,  unsteady, mouthy,
loose
in their talk, muddled in their mindfulness, unalert,  unconcentrated, their
minds wandering, their senses uncontrolled. Why, indeed,  are they Dhamma(s)
devotees'
I added the (s) as a suggestion  ;-)

with Metta Dieter

===================================
With metta,
Howard


Seamless

/A change in anything is a  change in everything/

(Anonymous)





#104978 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 11:16 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	nilovg
  	

Dear Lukas,
Op 5-feb-2010, om 19:43 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven:

> Yes, but in the context of patticasamupada this can be different.
> kayasankhara, vacisankhara and manosankhara.
---
N: Yes, that is right, the first meaning given by Ven. Nyanatiloka:<
1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination,
(pat.iccasamuppa-da, q.v.), san.kha-ra has the active aspect,
'forming, and signifies kamma (q.v.), i.e. wholesome or unwholesome
volitional activity (cetana-) of body (ka-ya-s.), speech (vaci--s.) or
mind (citta- or mano-s.). >
-----
Nina.



#104979 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 11:26 am
Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Three rounds, Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 7. 	nilovg
  	

Dear Lukas,
Op 5-feb-2010, om 19:53 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven:

> And Sariputta had all of them?
>
> I am not sure but does dasabala are ~nanas listed in Path of
> Discrimination? The only ~nanas Buddha have?
--------
N: No, Saariputta did not have all. See Path of Discrimination, the
Matika. p. 7:
Knowledge not shared by Disciples:

Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties
Knowledge of beings' biases and underlying tendencies.

This is a classification under knowledges.
Quote from B. dictionary:
dasa-(Tatha-gata-) bala: 'the ten powers (of a Perfect One); or, he
who Possesses the 10 P.', i.e. the Buddha. About him it is said
(e.g., M. 12.; A. X, 21):

There, o monks, the Perfect One understands according to reality the
possible as possible, and the impossible as impossible ... the result
of past, present and future actions ... the path leading to the
welfare of all ... the world with its many different elements ... the
different inclinations in beings ... the lower and higher faculties
in beings ... the defilement, purity and rising with regard to the
absorptions, deliverances, concentration and attainments ...
remembering many former rebirths ... perceiving with the divine eye
how beings vanish and reappear again according to their actions
(kamma) ... gaining, through extinction of all taints, possession of
'deliverance of mind' and 'deliverance through wisdom' ...."
--------
Nina.






#104980 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 11:30 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	nilovg
  	

Dear Vince,
Op 5-feb-2010, om 17:07 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven:

> Kamma is not a dhamma in itself. Kamma is a natural law.
------
See Howard's explanation.
There is a natural law *of* kamma, niyama. It cannot be altered that
kusala kamma produces kusala vipaaka.
Another niyama is citta niyama: cittas arising in a process do so
according to a certain order. That is niyama, fixed.
Nina.



 
#104981 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 11:37 am
Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Notes about the three rounds, no 3. 	nilovg
  	

Dear Fabian,
Op 5-feb-2010, om 15:23 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven:

> But I believe the experience we've had during vipassana (sorry I
> mean Vipassana concentration) practicing would lead to
> understanding on how our mind and body works as we progress along.
------
N: Vipassanaa means insight, understanding. It is not concentration.
-------
>
> F: Maybe we talk different kind of undertanding, What I mean is
> understanding on the characteristics of phenomena.
------
N: Yes, I quite agree.
-------
> F: And... of course learning Dhamma/pariyatti is very helpful to
> the development of practice, but still in my opinion the
> understanding we aqcuired during actual practice/patipatti
> sometimes have different aspects than the understanding in
> Dhammaclass.
--------
N: What is experienced in pa.tipatti is in complete agreement with
what is learnt in pariyatti, and pariyatti is not dropped at all, it
also grows along with pa.tipatti.
Pariyatti is not like a Dhamma class, it is much more. By conditions
it leads to direct understanding of the characteristics of realities
one heard about and then considered and investigated when they
appeared at the present moment. Pariyatti is learning about the
present reality. about seeing right now, visible object now, feeling
now. There is so much to learn during our short life.
Nina.



#104982 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 11:50 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] What does "Considering" dhammas actually mean? Thinking, labeling? 	nilovg
  	

Dear Alex,
Your question is good and it goes deeply. Food for thought.
Op 4-feb-2010, om 22:03 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

> When you say "considering what one has learned", could you (or
> someone else) please elaborate what you mean by that?
>
> First, is this considering happens as that event occurs, or long
> time afterwards. Ex: You think what has happened earlier that day
> "such and such has occured, it was just this citta and those
> cetasikas, etc etc"?
------
N: This is more a reflection afterwards when it has passed for quite
a while. We may forget what is appearing now.
------
>
> A: What does *Considering* mean?
> Do you internally think? "eye plus visible form is a condition for
> eye-consciousness. Such and such cetasikas have arose."
>
> Word *considering* sounds like thinking and analyzing.
-------
N: No, it is not like that. For example, I listen to a recording
where Kh Sujin explains that all that appears through the eyesense is
visible object, not a person. At that very moment there may (or often
there may not!) be conditions to attend to the characteristic of
visible object, without having to think: this is visible object. In
that way we can learn that a table or a person is not seen, only
thinking on account of what is seen. We just consider or investigate
for a moment and then it is gone.
Considering is rather direct and refers to the reality now, although
that 'now' is not very precise yet. It is a beginning.
Considering should not be motivated by: I should, or I wish. It can
just happen because of conditions, naturally. If not, it is the wrong
way. Not wise attention arisen because of its own conditions.
-------
Nina.



#104983 	From: "Mike" <mikenz66@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 1:30 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] What does "Considering" dhammas actually mean? Thinking, labeling? 	mikenz66
  	

Dear Nina,

Thank you for your explanation. That is my understanding of how awareness should
be.

Metta
Mike

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
> N: No, it is not like that. For example, I listen to a recording
> where Kh Sujin explains that all that appears through the eyesense is
> visible object, not a person. At that very moment there may (or often
> there may not!) be conditions to attend to the characteristic of
> visible object, without having to think: this is visible object. In
> that way we can learn that a table or a person is not seen, only
> thinking on account of what is seen. We just consider or investigate
> for a moment and then it is gone.
> Considering is rather direct and refers to the reality now, although
> that 'now' is not very precise yet. It is a beginning.
> Considering should not be motivated by: I should, or I wish. It can
> just happen because of conditions, naturally. If not, it is the wrong
> way. Not wise attention arisen because of its own conditions.
> -------
> Nina.


#104984 	From: "kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 3:36 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: study and actual seeing the reality 	kenhowardau
  	

Hi Howard and Alex,

I enjoy talking to Alex, even though it can be a bit like talking to a brick
wall at times. Responding, as I do, to the same points over and over again still
has its benefits for me (making me consider them from a slightly different angle
each time), even though it may be of no apparent benefit to Alex.

------------
<. . .>
A: > > > I find it curious that one can know the taste of the food by reading
the menu.
KH: > > <. . .>

H: > Of course, you DO understand, Ken, that there is an analogy being
made, and that, indeed, no one would be so foolish to claim that. But playing
this game, Ken, isn't really answering the point being made.
--------------

But the point being made has already been answered many times on DSG, hasn't it?
Not just by me but also by people with understanding and finesse.

Alex's point is that reading a Dhamma book does not, by itself, constitute
satipatthana. I agree. Understanding develops gradually, you can't just open a
book and expect to have it.

But sitting in meditation is even more remote from satipatthana.

The Dhamma study we do is at least an outward appearance, or simulation, of
hearing the true Dhamma and paying wise attention to it (two of the four factors
leading to enlightenment).  On the other hand, sitting in meditation is not even
an outward simulation of satipatthana. Nowhere in the Tipitaka are we told that
correct sitting (or looking, or trying to create satipatthana) is a factor
leading to enlightenment.

----------------------------
A: > It is interesting how one can be skillful in swimming without
actually swimming,
KH: > > <. . .>

H: > Same comment as above.
-------------------------------

How many times do I and others have to explain that we are *not* saying one can
become skilful in swimming without actually swimming? It's the same with
satipatthana, there needs to be right understanding now. With repeated
occurrence, right understanding grows until it constitutes satipatthana and
vipassana.  Just like swimming practice!

The difference, of course, is that right understanding is a reality whereas
swimming is a concept. Swimming is perfected by deliberately (by act of free
will) going to a pool and doing laps. In reality, there is no such thing as
swimming, and no such thing as deliberate (controlled) action or free will. In
reality, everything (including right understanding and wrong understanding)
arises by conditions. There is no control.

Also in absolute reality, there is no past and no future. And so the Dhamma is
for right understanding here and now.

----------------------------------------------
<. . .>
KH: > > What is his method? Is it meditation? Are you saying that meditators can
become expert swimmers without actually swimming?

H: > And, of course, you DO know two things: 1) The purpose of mediation is
mental cultivation of calm, clarity, and relinquishment, and 2) The Buddha
repeatedly recommended guarding the senses and meditating. He never reported how
some monks just "happened" to sit in caves or in the forest or at the root of a
tree or in a secluded dwelling and directed their attention internally. He never
implied that meditation typically occurred unintentionally, like stomach gas.
-----------------------------------------------

Yes, I know you insist on seeing the Dhamma as being about conventional rality.
There is, however, another reality, in which guarding the mind (like all other
conditioned realities) actually happens in the loka (the single-moment world of
namas and rupas.)

-----------
<. . .>
HK: > None of them is being directly experienced by panna, unfortunately.

H: > Or with strong attention, mindfulness, undistractedness, or ease. We
experience with consciousness and concomitant mental functions that are dull,
untrained observational tools.
-----------

It would be a big mistake to think that right understanding could only occur in
optimal, carefully prepared, circumstances.

Imagine, Howard, that a friend of yours was dying in extreme pain. You try to
encourage him to see death as it really is (just a momentary arising of namas
and rupas - just like any other moment in the day  and nothing more to be afraid
of ) but he says, "I can't have right understanding now! Not in these
circumstances! There has to be a prepared state of mind with undistractedness .
. ."

---------------------
<. . .>
KH: > > But maybe, if we are very lucky, panna will create and experience a
*concept* of a dhamma. That would be a good start, wouldn't it?

H: > And here is the crux! We need, according to you, to be LUCKY!
---------------------

Yes, lucky in the sense of fortunate.  We would be lucky if, in previous
lifetimes, various beings (who we think of as our former selves) had been wise
enough to listen to, and consider, the Dhamma. Lucky to have been wise enough
earlier in this lifetime to have done the same things. Now, if, as a result, a
moment of right understanding flashes by. . . What luck! :-)

Ken H


#104985 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 11:23 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: study and actual seeing the reality 	upasaka_howard
  	

Hi, Ken (and Alex) -

In a message dated 2/5/2010 6:39:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kenhowardau@... writes:

Hi  Howard and Alex,

I enjoy talking to Alex, even though it can be a bit  like talking to a
brick wall at times. Responding, as I do, to the same points  over and over
again still has its benefits for me (making me consider them  from a slightly
different angle each time), even though it may be of no  apparent benefit to
Alex.
==================================
     Ken, I'm leaving the (not reproduced here)  balance of your reply
unreplied to, as I think we each know the other's  perspective and are not
likely
to come to a meeting of the minds on this. But  thank you very much for a
most civil and friendly response. I appreciate that,  and I appreciate your
friendship.

With metta,
Howard



Seamless

/A change in anything is a  change in  everything/

(Anonymous)




#104986 	From: "colette" <ksheri3@...>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 5:57 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	ksheri3
  	

Hi Nina,

Great that you cognized a position yet I am perplexed that you only cognized one
side of the coin: sadness.

In New Orleans, I found it odd, at first, that people "celebrated" a friend's
death. After a decade in Wheaton at the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY'S library, THE
OLCOTT LIBRARY,  I began realizing that they, the people I originally pondered
celebrating their friend's death, I came to realize that to perpetuate sorrow
and grief would only issue KARMA of a "aksula" nature THUS restricting the path
that the person was taking w/ them in this alleged "after-life". It makes
complete sence to rejoice in the RELEASE FROM SUFFERING and RELEASE FROM
PERPETUATED SORROW, and extend that feeling, that consciousness, to their
departed.

Sure, in this narrow minded WESTERN philosophy, it's STANDARD OPERATING
PROCEDURE to cry and lament but isn't that doing nothing more than extending bad
karma to the decesed so as to control the decesed by means of Karma itself. Just
as I have said that organized religion manipulates the birth of human babies by
strictly maintaining the rule of THE BEATTEN PATH, THAT this behavior is GENETIC
ENGINEERING to maintain a PAST so that it can manifest as the PRESENT, I stand
stallwort that the standard operating procedure of NOT CELEBRATING the blessing
of RELEASE FROM SUFFERING and the RELEASE FROM NEGATIVE EMOTIONS is the same as
GENETIC ENGINEERING to manifest something that is not into becoming something
that is while at the expense of the decesed.

Now I see TANTRA, yes! the elevated consciousnesses, such as YOGA NIDRA, are a
"bliss" or "extasy". I think of what Rabbi Isaac Luria said about the experience
of "bliss" or "extasy".

Yes, I'm lucky to have you as a friend and colleague. Great that I can converse
w/ you in real time and not read books only to DESIRE to have had the time to
actually converse w/ the author.

toodles,
colette

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Colette (and Ken O),
> I like your kind letter, thank you. Separation is also a kind of
> death as you indicate. And what is more: sadness is conditioned by
> lobha. It is selfishness that conditions it. However, when sadness
> arises we do not deny it, we do not pretend to be above it, or to be
> like non-returners who have eradicated it.
> Nina.
<...>


#104987 	From: nichicon cp <nichicon@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 11:23 pm
Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (318, 18) 	nichiconn
  	

Dear Friends,
Following on from #104836 Fives (318, 17) (cy: #104849),

CSCD
<<Pa~nca anaagaamino - antaraaparinibbaayii, upahaccaparinibbaayii,
asa'nkhaaraparinibbaayii, sasa'nkhaaraparinibbaayii,
uddha.msotoakani.t.thagaamii.

Walshe
DN 33.2.1(18) 'Five kinds of Non-Returner (anaagaamii): *1094 the
"less-than-half-timer", the "more-than-half-timer", the "gainer without
exertion", "he who goes upstream to the highest".

Olds
[ 5.18 ]  Five Non-Returners:[ 5.18 ]
Midway-All-round-unbound, reduced-all-round-unbound,
no-confounding-all-round-unbounding, with-confounding-all-round-unbounding, the
up-stream-to-the-Akanittha-goer.

RDs
[ 5.18 ] Five classes of persons become Never-returners: -- one who passes away
before middle age in that world in which he has been reborn, one who so passes
after middle age, one who so passes without much toil, with ease, one who so
passes with toil and difficulty, one who striving 'upstream' is reborn in the
Akani.t.tha world.5.18

*walshe:
1094    For these scholastic distinctions see BDic or EB.
**olds:
[ 5.18 ] Pa~nca anaagaamino:
Antaraa-parinibbaayii, upahacca-parinibbaayii, asa.mkhaara-parinibbaayii,
sasa.mkhaara-paribbaayii, uddha.msoto Akani.t.tha-gaamii.
Parinibbaana (nt.) [pari+nibbaana] "complete Nibbaana" in two meanings: 1.
complete extinction of khandhalife; i. e. all possibility of such life and its
rebirth, final release from (the misery of) rebirth and transmigration, death
(after the last life-span of an Arahant). This is the so-called "an-upaadi-sesa
Parinibbaana," or "extinction with no rebirth-substratum left." -- 2. release
from cravings and attachment to life, emancipation (in this life) with the
assurance of final death; freedom of spirit, calm, perfect well-being or peace
of soul. This is the so-called "sa-upaadisesa-P.," or "extinction (of passion)
with some substratum left." This state of final emancipation (during life) has
also received the determination of anupaadaa-parinibbaana, i. e. emancipation
without ground. for further clinging (lit. without fuel).
Parinibbaayin [fr. parinibbaayati] one who attains Parinibbaana. Of the 2
meanings registered under parinibbaana we find No. 1 only in a very restricted
use, when taken in both senses of sa- and an- upaadisesa parinibbaana; e. g. at
A II.155 sq., where the distinction is made between a sa-sankhaara p. and an
a-sankhaara p., as these two terms also occur in the fivefold classification of
"Never-returners" (i. e. those who are not reborn) viz. antaraa-parinibbaayin,
upahacca-, sasankhaara-, uddha.msota, akani.t.thagaamin. Thus at D III.237; S
V.201, 237; A I.233; IV.14, 71 sq., 146, 380; V.120; Pug 16, 17. -- 2. In the
sense of Parinibbaana No. 2 (i. e. sa-upaadisesa p.) we find parinibbaayin
almost as an equivalent of arahant in two combns, viz. (a) tattha- (always combd
with opapaatika, i. e. above the ordinary cause of birth) [cp. BSk.
tatra-parinirvaayin anaagaamin Divy 533]. It is also invariably combd with
anaavattidhamma, e. g. at D I.156; III.108, 132; M II.56, 146; A I.232; 245,
290; II.5, 89, 238; IV.12, 399, 423; V.343; S V.346 (cp. 406), 357. -- (b)
antara- [cp. BSk. antaraaparinirvaayin MVastu I.33] one who passes away in the
middle of his term of life in a particular heaven; an Anaagaamin S V.69=A IV.70;
S V.201=204, 237, 285, 314, 378; A II.134.
Upahacca (*-) [ger. of upahanti] -- 1. spoiling, impairing, defiling J V.267
(mana.m) -- 2. reducing, cutting short; only in phrase upahacca-parinibbaayin
"coming to extinction after reducing the time of rebirths (or after having
almost reached the destruction of life") S V.70, 201 sq.; A I.233 sq.; IV.380.
-- The term is not quite clear; there seems to have existed very early confusion
with upapacca < upapajja < uppajja, as indicated by BSk. upapadya-parinirvaayin,
and by remarks of C. on Kvu 268, as quoted at Kvu trsln. 158, 159.
I can conjecture as to the meanings of these terms, but unfortunately I am
unable to speak from experience. I have made my translation sticking as closely
to the meaning of the Pali terms as I was able.

Walshe has: "the "less-than-half-timer", the "more-than-half-timer", the "gainer
without exertion", the "gainer with exertion", "he who goes upstream to the
highest."
Rhys Davids has: one who passes away before middle age in that world in which he
has been reborn, one who so passes after middle age, one who so passes without
much toil, with ease, one who so passes with toil and difficulty, one who
striving 'upstream' is reborn in the Akanittha world.
Walshe's "exertion" and Rhys Davids "toil" for sankhara seems like a stretch to
me. This is much more likely the case where there is residual effects of kamma
remaining after death, such that, say, an eye keeps hanging around the vacinity,
disturbing the emptiness. Also both these translaters appear to me to be hearing
an echo of another set of descriptions of Non-returners which goes: One who
attains parinibbana at the death of this body, one who attains after the death
of this body but before rebirth in another existance, and one who attains midway
through rebirth in another existance. The way Rhys Davids is describing it the
last one and the others are the same (except for, perhaps, the actual sphere
into which the non-returner is reborn). I suspect Rhys Davids "Akanittha" Realm
is better than Walshe's "highest" simply because the Dhamma before this included
this term.
***rd:
5.18It was believed that these completed life as we conceive it, in a final
rebirth in one of these five heavens. Cf. A. IV. 14 f.


to be continued,
connie, Nina, Scott


#104988 	From: Vince <cerovzt@...>
Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 12:38 am
Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	cerovzt@...
  	

Dear Howard,

you wrote:

>     You're not quite right in this, Vince.  There is a "natural law (or
> cosmic principle)" of kamma that codifies  the workings of kamma and vipaka,
> but the Buddha used the word 'kamma'  itself to refer to the cetasika that is
> cetana/intention/volition.

Buddha said intention is kamma and also other things are kamma.
Kamma is not a dhamma.

- Volition is kamma.
- Volition is a dhamma
- Kamma is not a dhamma.

at Buddha times, kamma was explained without using volition, as we can
read in example in the Bhumija Sutta:

"there are other priests & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who
declare that pleasure & pain are self-made & other-made. And then
there are still other priests & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who
declare that pleasure & pain are neither self-made nor other-made, but
arise spontaneously."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.025.than.html

Buddha put volition and intention in the core of the explanation of
kamma. When we read "volition is kamma" it means volition is the
responsible of creating kamma. But it doesn't mean kamma is a dhamma.
neither kamma is only volition.

Kamma arises in a conditional way. Kamma needs of both past and
present. kamma is not only volition but also the results of
volition: ie: body, thoughts, feelings, etc...
All these things are named "kamma" in the Suttas and not only
volition:

"What, monks, is old kamma? The eye [ear, nose tongue, body (touch),
mind], monks, is to be regarded as old kamma, brought into existence
and created by volition, forming a basis for feeling. This, monks, is
called 'old kamma."
"And what, monks, is new kamma? "The action one performs now by body,
speech and mind. This monks, is called 'new kamma.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.wlsh.html

so here we can check kamma is not only volition but also  eye, ear,
nose..... Kamma is used as a characteristic for dhammas.
This characteristic arises in the application of a law (explanation).
This law not in the object (objects doesn't contain explanations) but
in consciousness, in our own understanding.

"Where consciousness takes a hold and grows, there is occurrence of
mind-and-body. Where there is occurrence of mind-and-body, there is
growth of kamma-formations. Where there is growth of kamma-formations,
there is a future arising of renewed existence."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.064.nypo.html

consciousness ignoring its own co-arising with nama&rupa, and from
here there are the kamma formations and then the cycle across time and
lifes without getting a cease.


Vince,


#104989 	From: Vince <cerovzt@...>
Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 12:52 am
Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	cerovzt@...
  	

Dear Nina

you wrote:

> See Howard's explanation.
> There is a natural law *of* kamma, niyama. It cannot be altered that
> kusala kamma produces kusala vipaaka.
> Another niyama is citta niyama: cittas arising in a process do so
> according to a certain order. That is niyama, fixed.

to avoid repetition, see my answer to Howard.



Vince.


#104990 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 12:37 am
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	upasaka_howard
  	

Hi, Vince -

     When the Buddha spoke of "old kamma," he was  speaking figuratively,
not literally, of things conditioned by kamma. By 'kamma'  per se, he meant
intention, and by slight extension, the resultant intentional  action.

With metta,
Howard


In a message dated 2/6/2010 3:36:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
cerovzt@... writes:

Dear  Howard,

you wrote:

>     You're not quite  right in this, Vince.  There is a "natural law (or
> cosmic  principle)" of kamma that codifies  the workings of kamma and
vipaka,
> but the Buddha used the word 'kamma'  itself to refer to  the cetasika
that is
> cetana/intention/volition.

Buddha said  intention is kamma and also other things are kamma.
Kamma is not a  dhamma.

- Volition is kamma.
- Volition is a dhamma
- Kamma is  not a dhamma.

at Buddha times, kamma was explained without using  volition, as we can
read in example in the Bhumija Sutta:

"there are  other priests & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who
declare that  pleasure & pain are self-made & other-made. And then
there are  still other priests & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who
declare  that pleasure & pain are neither self-made nor other-made, but
arise  spontaneously."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.025.than.html

Buddha  put volition and intention in the core of the explanation of
kamma. When we  read "volition is kamma" it means volition is the
responsible of creating  kamma. But it doesn't mean kamma is a dhamma.
neither kamma is only  volition.

Kamma arises in a conditional way. Kamma needs of both past  and
present. kamma is not only volition but also the results  of
volition: ie: body, thoughts, feelings, etc...
All these things are  named "kamma" in the Suttas and not only
volition:

"What, monks, is  old kamma? The eye [ear, nose tongue, body (touch),
mind], monks, is to be  regarded as old kamma, brought into existence
and created by volition,  forming a basis for feeling. This, monks, is
called 'old kamma."
"And  what, monks, is new kamma? "The action one performs now by body,
speech and  mind. This monks, is called 'new  kamma.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.wlsh.html

so  here we can check kamma is not only volition but also  eye,  ear,
nose..... Kamma is used as a characteristic for dhammas.
This  characteristic arises in the application of a law (explanation).
This law  not in the object (objects doesn't contain explanations) but
in  consciousness, in our own understanding.

"Where consciousness takes a  hold and grows, there is occurrence of
mind-and-body. Where there is  occurrence of mind-and-body, there is
growth of kamma-formations. Where  there is growth of kamma-formations,
there is a future arising of renewed  existence."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.064.nypo.html

consciousness  ignoring its own co-arising with nama&rupa, and from
here there are the  kamma formations and then the cycle across time and
lifes without getting a  cease.


Vince,



#104991 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 5:52 am
Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 16. 	nilovg
  	

Dear friends,

Learning about the Path-factors which each perform their own function
helps us to see that no self, no person develops right understanding.
We do not have to adopt a particular life-style for the development
of understanding. Understanding can develop when it is assisted by
the other Path-factors and supported by other conditions, including
the Perfections. There should be no discouragement about the long way
which lies ahead. There can at least be a beginning of understanding
of the reality appearing at the present moment through one of the six
doors.
The Buddha taught the conditions for the development of what is good
and wholesome and the conditions for the eradication of defilements.
In developing the Buddha?s Path one will come to know one?s ignorance
of realities, one?s selfishness and other defilements. The change
from selfishness to detachment, from ignorance to understanding is
immense. How could such changes take place within a short time? It is
a long process. Also the Buddha and his disciples had to walk a long
way in order to gain full understanding of the four noble Truths and
freedom from the cycle of birth and death. We read in the Kindred
Sayings (V, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, chapter III, ?1,
Knowledge) that the Buddha, while he was staying among the Vajjians
at Kotig?ma, said to the monks:

Monks, it is through not understanding, not penetrating four noble
Truths that we have run on, wandered on, this long, long road, both
you and I. What are the four?
Through not understanding, not penetrating the noble truth of dukkha,
of the arising of dukkha, of the ceasing of dukkha, of the way
leading to the ceasing of dukkha, we have run on, wandered on, this
long long road, both you and I.
But now, monks, the noble truth of dukkha is understood, is
penetrated, likewise the noble truth of the arising, of the ceasing
of dukkha, of the way leading to the ceasing of dukkha is understood,
is penetrated. Uprooted is the craving to exist, destroyed is the
channel to becoming, there is no more coming to be?

(the end)

******
Nina.



#104992 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 5:58 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? 	nilovg
  	

Dear Colette,
Thanks for your kind response. But Tantra, Yoga Nidra, I cannot
respond to this, knowing nothing about mahaayana.
Nina.

Op 6-feb-2010, om 2:57 heeft colette het volgende geschreven:

> Now I see TANTRA, yes! the elevated consciousnesses, such as YOGA
> NIDRA, are a "bliss" or "extasy". I think of what Rabbi Isaac Luria
> said about the experience of "bliss" or "extasy".




#104993 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 6:48 am
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	nilovg
  	

Dear Vince,
Op 6-feb-2010, om 9:38 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven:

> Buddha put volition and intention in the core of the explanation of
> kamma. When we read "volition is kamma" it means volition is the
> responsible of creating kamma. But it doesn't mean kamma is a dhamma.
> neither kamma is only volition.
--------
N: You asked me before a very good question: which paramattha dhamma
is kamma. It is good to ask this. If we want to know whether
something is real in the absolute sense or a concept we have to ask
this question.
We could say: kamma or volition is a paramattha dhamma or a dhamma.
Volition that motivates deeds through body, speech and mind is a
reality of life. We may be irritated and use harsh speech, and there
it is: akusala kamma through speech. This can produces a result in
the form of an unpleasant experience through the senses later on, a
vipaakacitta.
   --------
>
> V: Kamma arises in a conditional way. Kamma needs of both past and
> present. kamma is not only volition but also the results of
> volition:
-------
N: Kamma is not the same as result. We could call kamma the active
side of life and vipaaka the passive side of life. We undergo vipaaka.
--------
>
> V: "What, monks, is old kamma? The eye [ear, nose tongue, body
> (touch),
> mind], monks, is to be regarded as old kamma, brought into existence
> and created by volition, forming a basis for feeling. This, monks, is
> called 'old kamma."
> "And what, monks, is new kamma? "The action one performs now by body,
> speech and mind. This monks, is called 'new kamma.'
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.wlsh.html
>
> so here we can check kamma is not only volition but also eye, ear,
> nose.....
-------
N: What is eye, ear, etc? Actually these are ruupas and these are
capable to be the means of experiences like seeing, hearing, etc.
thus the doorways and physical bases for seeing, hearing, etc. which
are results of kamma.
The ruupas of the body can be produced by kamma, by citta, by
nutrition or by the element of heat.
The sutta says: < brought into existence and created by volition>,
see, produced by volition or kamma.
---------
The sutta continues:
"When there is a body, pleasure & pain arise internally with bodily
intention as the cause; or when there is speech, pleasure & pain
arise internally with verbal intention as the cause; or when there is
intellect, pleasure & pain arise internally with intellectual
intention as the cause..."

Bodily ease and pain are feelings conditioned by kamma, a deed done
in the past. The sutta mentions kamma through bodily action, speech
and mind. The word intention is used, this is volition or kamma.

So long as ignorance has not been eradicated, there is performance of
kamma, both good and evil. These produce rebirth and during life
sense impressions. There will be rebirth until pa~n~naa has
eradicated all ignorance and arahatship has been reached. Then there
is the end of the cycle.

It is very difficult to completely understand D.O. First we must be
quite sure what is a dhamma or paramattha dhamma and what is a
concept. Shouldn't we talk more about what you can experience right
now? Kh Sujin speaks a lot about seeing, because we are seeing all
the time and it is real, a paramattha dhamma.
Did she speak to you about seeing? What do you think of seeing?  Do
you find it understandable that seeing experiences only colour, no
persons or objects? Should we not discuss more attachment, anger,
thinking, all those realities that can be experienced now?
-------
Nina




#104994 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 6:59 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 16. 	moellerdieter
  	

Dear Nina (Ken O),


you wrote:

The change  from selfishness to detachment, from ignorance to understanding
is  immense. How could such changes take place within a short time? It is
a long process. Also the Buddha and his disciples had to walk a long  way in
order to gain full understanding of the four noble Truths and  freedom from
the cycle of birth and death. We read in the Kindred  Sayings (V, Kindred
Sayings about the Truths, chapter III, ?1,  Knowledge) that the Buddha,
while he was staying among the Vajjians  at Kotig?ma, said to the monks:

Monks, it is through not understanding, not penetrating four noble  Truths
that we have run on, wandered on, this long, long road, both  you and I.
What are the four?
Through not understanding, not penetrating the noble truth of dukkha,  of
the arising of dukkha, of the ceasing of dukkha, of the way  leading to the
ceasing of dukkha, we have run on, wandered on, this  long long road, both
you and I.
But now, monks, the noble truth of dukkha is understood, is  penetrated,
likewise the noble truth of the arising, of the ceasing  of dukkha, of the
way leading to the ceasing of dukkha is understood,  is penetrated. Uprooted
is the craving to exist, destroyed is the  channel to becoming, there is no
more coming to be.

D: you may remember our  recent exchange  :


N: in particular:... pa??? is gradually developed from life to life..snip
..we do not know when they will arise. It takes many lives, but we should
not be impatient.'
D: this sounds to me very strange especially when we talk about satipatthana
... considering the Buddha's conclusive statement :
"Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for
seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right
here & now, or - if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance - non-return
.Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four fram.es of
reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years...
one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two
months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for
him: either gnosis right here & now, or - if there be any remnant of
clinging-sustenance - non-return

(KenO answered :   'It is not strange, it is the context being said.
Buddha, chief disciples takes many aeons to accomplish their panna.    )

The Buddha refered to the long, long time passed until his enlightenment
when  he (re-) discovered the ancient path, but due to his proclaiming
understanding and penetration is possible this very lifetime.  And so his
conclusive statement at the end of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta needs to  be
understood : if anybody would develop
these four frames... for seven years etc. .. of course this will be
difficult leading the  (comfortable) life of an householder.. but not
impossible at least to reach the state of stream-entrance like we know from
the suttas..

with Metta Dieter



#104995 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 10:03 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) 	moellerdieter
  	

Hi Howard, Jon ...,

you wrote:

(D: thank for the comment , Howard ..even that it was in favor of the wrong camp
;-) :
---------------------------------------------------
LOLOL! My face is red! There are no camps, here, though - only points
of view, yours ... and the correct one! ;-))

D:   ..well there are , mine still under construction ;-)


H: (D: ....the second aspect is the point of mind development (bhavana): can't
we expect from the instructed disciple a mind working differently from that
of a commoner? A mind , which remains focused on a wholesome course , with
guarded senses , not just picking up one object after the other ...?
Where are the fruits of mental training when the state of monkey mind would be
of general unchangeable nature, without a difference between a
wordling and an Ariyan ?
----------------------------------------------------------
The mind of an ariyan is, of course, different from that of a worldling, but the
main difference, I believe, is the matter of degree of relinquishment and
detachment and calm.


D: I don 't dispute that ..but the discussion started with Jon's understanding,'
the development of awareness can begin regardless if the present mind-state'  to
which I responded  'Because the usual mind-state is that  'just as  a monkey
wondering in a big forest seizes a branch and letting go of it  seizes another,
similarly , bhikkhus, of what is called mind , is called though, is called
consciousness, one moment arises at another ceases  continually both day and
night .`SN XII, 61) ,  awareness  needs  to calm down body and mind '
Jon:Yes, I'm familiar with the monkey simile.I don't think that simile has to do
with the nature of the present mind-state. Please see the commentary notes on
this in CDB (the Bhikkhu Bodhi translaiton) at page 770, note 157.
According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, the point of the simile is that "the mind is always
dependent on an object". He points out that "neither the sutta nor the
commentary interprets the monkey simile here as saying that the untrained mind
is as restless as a monkey".


My point is that awareness needs calm  vs  awareness can begin regardless if the
present mind-state'
The monkey simile seems to me fitting for  demonstration ..... (and you confirm
:  the difference is a matter of......and calm.)


H: But in any case, thinking proceeds from limb to limb, and consciousness, at
least as conceptualized, proceeds from object to object.
An argument favoring your perspective could well be made, Dieter. That would be
that a monkey mind, is a mind that strongly clings to things,
grasping onto one "branch" after another. But that is not how I understand the
simile, though, of course I could be wrong. I understand it to refer to
the constant moving on of consciousness and thought, and that is how all
mentality is except for an arahant who has momentarily "stepped out" or one who
has permanently passed on. All conditioned phenomena are in flux, and that
includes the conditioned consciousness and thought even of arahants.
----------------------------------------------------------

D:  the crucial issue here  is concentration .... to remain focused on ... ( not
only Jhana but as well  the 4 contemplations of satipatthana and right effort,
i.e. all 3 factors of the samadhi sequence of the path training)  which
interrupts , calms down the constant (undirected ) moving on sense objects and
thoughts (monkey mind).
  I believe it is likely that some of  the 7 types of disciples (M.N. Kitagiri
Sutta, ) , in particular those so-called dry insight workers  ( only
acknowledged by VisM ?) will  insist on the general nature of the (monkey) mind
for both the instructed and uninstructed ...but that needs further details to
consider.

with Metta Dieter



#104996 	From: Lukas <szmicio@...>
Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 10:24 am
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	szmicio
  	

Dear Howard, Vince, Nina
I wanna add my few thoughts.

The intention is conditioned. Not we that intend to do this or that. When
stealing or killing there is intention that now is gone. It's really just
conditioned dhamma that is out of control. When we know this, there can be less
anger to ther people when they steal or speak in bad way. We understand this is
only conditioned element. And metta can appear.
The development to all kind kusala is throught right understanding, this is
vipassana.
This is nice to see how different intentions go through the mind, and you become
less reactive to this. You become observer.

For example:
When you have a metta you dont need to think oh this person did this because of
that or maybe....
Metta dont need any thoughts, it's so natural, and it only needs more
understanding. I think this can be also intelctual understanding. Am I right
Nina? There is also panna associated with consideration?

Best wishes
Lukas

>When the Buddha spoke of "old kamma," he was speaking figuratively,
>not literally, of things conditioned by kamma. By 'kamma' per se, he meant
>intention, and by slight extension, the resultant intentional action.


#104997 	From: Lukas <szmicio@...>
Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 10:39 am
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] Re:kamma. 	szmicio
  	

Dear all,

>L:The intention is conditioned. Not we that intend to do this or that. When
>stealing or killing there is intention that now is gone. It's really just
>conditioned dhamma that is out of control

L: Maybe killing of a fish when going fishing. I am very opposite of any kind of
killing. I also always say myself, no fishing ;>

vacisankhara this is not only cetana that condition speach but also all
formations that speak(I think so). So even something not intended was said this
is all according to dhamma. This is only vacisankara that has power to speak not
we ;>

My best wishes
Lukas


#104998 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 6:22 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) 	upasaka_howard
  	

Hi, Dieter (and Jon) -

In a message dated 2/6/2010 1:04:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
moellerdieter@... writes:

Hi  Howard, Jon ...,

you wrote:

(D: thank for the comment ,  Howard ..even that it was in favor of the
wrong camp ;-)  :
---------------------------------------------------
LOLOL! My face is  red! There are no camps, here, though - only points
of view, yours ... and  the correct one! ;-))

D:   ..well there are , mine still  under construction ;-)


H: (D: ....the second aspect is the point of  mind development (bhavana):
can't we expect from the instructed disciple a  mind working differently from
that
of a commoner? A mind , which remains  focused on a wholesome course , with
guarded senses , not just picking up one  object after the other ...?
Where are the fruits of mental training when  the state of monkey mind
would be of general unchangeable nature, without a  difference between a
wordling and an Ariyan  ?
----------------------------------------------------------
The mind of  an ariyan is, of course, different from that of a worldling,
but the main  difference, I believe, is the matter of degree of
relinquishment and  detachment and calm.


D: I don 't dispute that ..but the discussion  started with Jon's
understanding,' the development of awareness can begin  regardless if the
present
mind-state'  to which I responded   'Because the usual mind-state is that
'just as  a monkey wondering  in a big forest seizes a branch and letting go of
it  seizes another,  similarly , bhikkhus, of what is called mind , is
called though, is called  consciousness, one moment arises at another ceases
continually both day  and night .`SN XII, 61) ,  awareness  needs  to calm down
body  and mind '
----------------------------------------------------------
     Aside from the intended meaning of the simile, as  regards the issue
being discussed, I think both you & Jon have right on  your side.
     Without the mind having been calmed and cleared by  appropriate
training, progress would be halting, slow, and disappointing, and  training the
mind, cultivating it, making it a fit instrument is critically  important, and
I take this as the thrust of your position, Dieter. And I agree  with you in
this.
     OTOH, as I have often said (ad nauseum for many,  I'm sure), we begin
where we are, and not where we would hope to be. If  transforming the mind,
even meagerly and with baby steps, were not possible  until we are better
prepared, then all would be hopeless. Progress to *some*  degree, including
elementary insights into what's what and the beginnings of  saddha must be
possible no matter how deeply compromised one's state may  be. Particularly,
encountering the Dhamma and admirable Dhamma friends can  support our initial
steps. And I take this to be Jon's position. And I agree  with him on this.
--------------------------------------------------------

                              <Snip>
====================================
With metta,
Howard


Hindrances

/Suppose there were a river, flowing down  from the mountains — going far,
its current swift, carrying everything with it —  and a man would open
channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the  current in the middle
of the river would be dispersed, diffused, &  dissipated; it wouldn't go far,
its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't  carry everything with it.
In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these  five obstacles,
hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment,  i.e., sensual
desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety,  and sceptical doubt,
when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment  to understand what
is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the  benefit of others,
to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to  realize a superior
human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge &  vision: that is
impossible/

(From the Avarana  Sutta)



BUT ALSO


Admirable Friendship

"If wanderers who are members of other sects  should ask you, 'What,
friend, are the prerequisites for the development of the _wings to
self-awakening_
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html#bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma) ?' you
should answer, 'There is the case where a monk has  admirable people as
friends, companions, & colleagues. This is the first  prerequisite for the
development of the wings to  self-awakening.'"
— _AN 9.1_
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.001.than.html)
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _  _ _ _ _

"And what is meant by admirable friendship? There  is the case where a lay
person, in whatever town or village he may dwell, spends  time with
householders or householders' sons, young or old, who are advanced in _virtue_
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/index.html) . He  talks with
them, engages them in discussions. He emulates consummate conviction  [in the
principle of _kamma_
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-ditthi/kamma.html)
] in  those who are consummate in conviction,
consummate _virtue_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/index.html)
in  those who are consummate in virtue, consummate _generosity_
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/dana/index.html)   in those who are
consummate
in generosity, and consummate discernment in those  who are consummate in
discernment. This is called admirable  friendship."
— _AN 8.54_
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.054.than.html)





#104999 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 11:56 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 16. 	nilovg
  	

Dear Dieter and Lukas,
I will answer later on.
Nina.
Op 6-feb-2010, om 15:59 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:

> D: you may remember our recent exchange :



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