#105000 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 12:23 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Dear Sarah, you wrote: S: I agree with you that it's an amazing work, considering the circumstances. The same goes for the early Pali dictionaries, all written without computers and internet of course. I think your idea of some footnoes to be read with the on-line version is an excellent one. We can certainly start to make a list here. I know at one time I did make a few jottings which I'll look out. What is it that you have in mind that you refer to above? I'd also like to bring Ken H, Scott and others into the project. I seem to remember Ken H referring to something before on the Eightfold Path. A big one is on Ayatanas. So, for any errors/corrections, perhaps anyone can fire ahead. I'd be happy to keep notes and begin to compile a list. D: I remember something like Nibbana in Dhamma or vice versa ..need to find it again , but that could be controversial so better start with another issue .. S: Thanks for the suggestion, Dieter. Also, I'm very glad to read all your other friendly and 'spirited' discussions! Keep them going and don't be deterred by any comments you find a tad disrespectful:). I appreciate your reminders to everyone about gentle speech. D: thanks for your kind words , Sarah .. with Metta Dieter #105001 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) moellerdieter Hi Howard , Jon.. you wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------- Aside from the intended meaning of the simile, as regards the issue being discussed, I think both you & Jon have right on your side. Without the mind having been calmed and cleared by appropriate training, progress would be halting, slow, and disappointing, and training the mind, cultivating it, making it a fit instrument is critically important, and I take this as the thrust of your position, Dieter. And I agree with you in this. 'OTOH, as I have often said (ad nauseum for many, I'm sure), we begin where we are, and not where we would hope to be. If transforming the mind, even meagerly and with baby steps, were not possible until we are better prepared, then all would be hopeless. Progress to *some* degree, including elementary insights into what's what and the beginnings of saddha must be possible no matter how deeply compromised one's state may be. Particularly, encountering the Dhamma and admirable Dhamma friends can support our initial steps. And I take this to be Jon's position. And I agree with him on this. D: above fits to the instructed and the uninstructed mind treated in the sutta , doesn't it? I can live with that , Howard .. thanks for the mediation in meditation ;-) with Metta Dieter #105002 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 2/6/2010 3:26:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: D: above fits to the instructed and the uninstructed mind treated in the sutta , doesn't it? I can live with that , Howard .. thanks for the mediation in meditation ;-) ============================ ;-)) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #105003 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 6:05 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > ... > D: I agree with that exclusive cases , in which Navy mothers warning their kids against bulls or crocodiles .. > but not where the teaching of this or that Ajahn and one's own understanding of it is discussed . > Before responding in my next mail to 'I wonder how much really is 'common to all.' and 'What are the realities that are arising now, Dieter?' I like to quote a sutta somehow related .. > ... > Ven. Maha Cunda said, "Friends, there is the case where Dhamma-devotee monks1 disparage jhana monks, <. . .> ----------- Hi Dieter, Thanks for your reply: looking forward to the next instalment. To my uneducated mind, the sutta you have quoted raises more questions than it answers. Why, for example, are the monks who don't practise jhana called "Dhamma devotees?" Surely *all* monks are Dhamma devotees (devoted to the Dhamma)? I wonder if hinges on the fact that jhana is not vipassana. During a period of jhana *absorption* only jhana cittas can arise - no vipassana cittas can arise. Therefore, perhaps, the practitioner is, strictly speaking, not a Dhamma devotee at those times. If anything, he is a jhana devotee [at those times]. Other trainees, who don't practise jhana, will inevitably be tempted into minor akusala speech etc in between moments of vipassana. But they are not *absorbed* in akusala speech. They are at least *leaving open* the possibility for vipassana cittas to arise. Therefore, they are not "akusala-speech devotees." They are full time Dhamma devotees. :-) I don't know; I am only guessing. Getting back to the sutta and your reasons for quoting it: I don't think it warns against criticising monks for having wrong view, do you? In this sutta, neither the jhana monks nor the Dhamma-devotee monks had wrong view. They simply had different ways of living their daily lives. So the jury is still out: are we permitted to identify a teaching as wrong view even when it is the teaching of a respected monk? Ken H #105004 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 9:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re:kamma. dhammasaro Good friend Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear all, > >... snip > > L: Maybe killing of a fish when going fishing. I am very opposite of any kind of killing. I also always say myself, no fishing ;> > > >... snip C: May this ole Texican inject in your conversation? Questions: 1. At what point do you stop killing? 2. When you wash your face, you are killing. Now, that you know you are killing when you wash your face; will you stop washing your face? 3. Again, at what point do you stop killing? Warm thanks for allowing this ole Texican to probe your depth of non-killing. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #105005 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 10:00 pm Subject: Re: Ajahn Jumnien, was: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship ptaus1 Hi Chuck and all, Thanks for posting this. Also thanks for the trouble in making the link work - I'm not sure what is the problem, i.e. whether the problem is on the Yahoo side or on the Multiply side. If anyone else is trying to access the file Chuck posted on his blog - if the link doesn't work when you click on it, then just copy the link and paste it into a new window/tab, and it should load ok. However, you'd also need to be a Multiply member to actually listen to the file - signing up for an account is free and pretty fast. Best wishes pt > C: Please try this web page: > > http://kasteelzeist.multiply.com/music/item/96/Ajahn_Jumnien_Dhamma_Talk If anyone else is trying to access the file - multiply #105006 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 10:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ptaus1 Dear Sarah, KenO, > S: I know, life would be simpler, but then the Teachings are not in the book in the end. What is there here in front of us wher there are no kalapas of hardness and other conditioned rupas? It took me years to appreciate this. > ..... > Did you read the transcript of a discussion with K.Sujin which I think is under 'Space' in U.P. - the last few entries, probably? Yes - I think she agrees with your opinion above when there are no conditioned rupas. Basically, I feel that's the correct explanation as well, but it would be useful to have textual support in some situations - like when KenO joins the dicussion :) Best wishes pt #105007 From: Vince Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 10:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. cerovzt@... Dear Howard, you wrote: > When the Buddha spoke of "old kamma," he was speaking figuratively, > not literally, of things conditioned by kamma. By 'kamma' per se, he meant > intention, and by slight extension, the resultant intentional action. as I have said to Nina, it's quite difficult be in agreement with that. We cannot say Buddha speaks "figuratively" when something is not in agreement with what we maintain. I see quite clear it is not figuratively. Eyes, nose... are kamma. Volition also is kamma and also it is conditioned. There is kamma, the kamma law. There is also the way to speak in Suttas in where we find "volition is kamma", "eye is kamma", etc... This way to speak using this or that dhamma can be understood by understanding the kamma law, so then why they talked in that way. We read "Volition is Kamma". By volition we build new kamma in the present moment. But the Kamma process includes causes, effects and doing. This whole process is kamma, the natural law. This is not a phenomena. Not a particular dhamma. Not a paramattha-dhamma. Kamma law is known by means dhammas involved. For this reason, volition is kamma and also eye or nose are kamma. best wishes, #105008 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 10:20 pm Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ptaus1 Hi Jon, Alex, all, Hope it's ok to join: > J: Pariyatti means the correct intellectual understanding of the matters necessary for satipatthana. Matters such as, for example, what is meant by the term 'dhammas' as used by the Buddha, their characteristics, how they differ from concepts, what can be the object of awareness, the significance of the fact of dhammas (including dhammas such as sati and viriya) being 'not-self', and so on. > > Patipatti means any moment of direct awareness of a dhamma. If there occur naturally moments of awareness of, for example, currently arising visible object as just visible object (as distinct from seeing consciousness), this would be patipadaa. pt: Isn't this already an arising of a stage of insight (at least the nama-rupa stage)? If it is, then at which of the insight stages does pativedha (as you desribe it below) officially begin? > J: Pativedha is the realization of the various stages of insight knowledge or enlightenment. Best wishes pt #105009 From: Vince Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 10:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: You asked me before a very good question: which paramattha dhamma > is kamma. It is good to ask this. If we want to know whether > something is real in the absolute sense or a concept we have to ask > this question. > We could say: kamma or volition is a paramattha dhamma or a dhamma. to me, this explanation it's difficult to accept (besides the explanation of how volition works). - First, I don't see kamma listed as one of the 4 paramattha dhammas. - Second, you says "kamma OR volition". However we read in the Suttas there are other dhammas are also named "kammas". To avoid repetitions in this point, please read my answer to Howard. > N: What is eye, ear, etc? Actually these are ruupas and these are > capable to be the means of experiences like seeing, hearing, etc. > thus the doorways and physical bases for seeing, hearing, etc. which > are results of kamma. but kamma is explained by means cause(hetu) and effect(phala). Eye,ear... are also kamma. I think this is maybe what you are forgetting. > The sutta says: < brought into existence and created by volition>, > see, produced by volition or kamma. volition is kamma because it is the doing of kamma. Causes of our present doing are also kamma because they are the causes of present volition. Effects of our present doing will be kamma because they will be the effects of this volition. All these dhammas, past, present, and future, all them are kamma. Not only volition. > It is very difficult to completely understand D.O. First we must be > quite sure what is a dhamma or paramattha dhamma and what is a > concept. there is not need to understand completely D.O to enter in the stream and to realize nibbana for first time. In the Suttas we can see how most of Buddha disciples they enter in the stream without knowing D.O. completely (neither Abhidhamma completely). Core of D.O. is co-arising of consciousness and nama&rupa, and it is also in the core of many other Buddhist teachings. Because it is the pointing to emptiness. I understand the confrontation of seeing and seer it's another way to realize that. Although I try to understand how it can work without an investigation of the origination of both conciousness and nama&rupa in the present moment. > Shouldn't we talk more about what you can experience right > now? Kh Sujin speaks a lot about seeing, because we are seeing all > the time and it is real, a paramattha dhamma. > Did she speak to you about seeing? What do you think of seeing? Do > you find it understandable that seeing experiences only colour, no > persons or objects? a little, although my interest with Sujin was knowing how she focus her experience of daily life according her progress. Discussion about seeing and seer was not a real concern. Paramattha dhammas are real and also empty. Seeing exists because there is arising of both consciousness and nama&rupa in a co-dependent way, in the present moment. Without the seen, there is not seeing. Without consciousness, there is not the seen. Don't you agree? I sent you a question for Sujin about this co-arising and Paramattha dhammas. She answered some thing about that? > Should we not discuss more attachment, anger, > thinking, all those realities that can be experienced now? yes, if you wish. But, Do you think right decontextualize them of the understanding of kamma and the co-arising of consciousness and nama&rupa?. Anyway I can leave this thread if you wants. best wishes, Vince. #105010 From: Vince Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 10:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. cerovzt@... Lukas wrote: > When you have a metta you dont need to think oh this person did this because of that or maybe.... > Metta dont need any thoughts, I agree very much. In that immediate spontaneity there is a big difference. Even more in these times, where the neurotic abuse of human emotions can be really shameful. Vince. #105011 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 11:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ptaus1 Hi KenH, K: But I can't be as careful as some in choosing my words. I have to discuss the Dhamma to the best of my limited ability, and too much political correctness cramps my style. :-) pt: With respect, I tend to think that the main issue here is probably the varying capacities of different people to actually bear with the ultimate terminology. I.e. most have no (conscious) experience of the ultimate, nor are they used to considering/discussing the dhamma in the ultimate terms. Not sure if you're aware, but I think this is the only active online buddhist forum where the ultimate terminology is preferred. Thus, anyone coming here from other forums (as it was with me too) is immediately up for a "cultural shock" of sorts, and this easily leads to an argument (or just leaving the forum). Not sure, but maybe considering the actual capacity or familiarity of the person to understand the ultimate terminology at the time, and then on that basis judging how far to go in pushing the ultimate in place of conventional explanation, might somehow help to transmit and receive dhamma more effectively. Though of course, that might feel a bit like diluting the dhamma, but I guess this goes down to the skill of transmiting the dhamma effectively and yet still in accordance with people's differing capacities to understand it. Not easy if you don't have that particular power of a Buddha to know other's capacities, but still... Best wishes pt #105012 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Desire and Delight for Dhamma" Dhammaraga & Dhammanandi ptaus1 Dear Nina and Alex, I'm a bit confused here whether the two of you are agreeing or disagreeing? As I understand Alex, he's saying it's okay to be attached to samatha-vipassana because that attachment will lead to anagami stage. As I understand Nina, it is not attachment to samatha-vipassana that leads to anagami stage, but it is understanding attachment of any sort (and letting go of it as a by-product of understanding) that leads to anagami stage, and further to arahantship if the final residue of attachment (which is to the actual samatha-vipassana now) has been abandoned. Do I understand your positions correctly? Thanks. Best wishes pt > > > A: So it is not so bad to be attached to samatha-vipassana until > > > Anagami stage. In fact certain wise aim is required to do >anything, > > > especially in the beginning. > > ------ > > N: There are conditions for attachment, and for us attachment to all > > sense objects. Most important: to realize it as such. > > Nina. > > A: Right. One should develop understanding and awareness to recognize attachment to anything bad or good, including Dhamma. > > Dhamma is like a raft. There is a time for attachment and holding tight to it (such as when crossing the sea). And there is time when one needs to let it go (when sea was crossed and one is at the shore). To let go the raft *too early* is like jumping off the raft in the middle of the sea, or not to cross the sea at all. So one has to use wisdom and awareness to know when to do what. #105013 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 12:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka ptaus1 Dear Nina, > N: Also right concentration even to the degree of jhaana should be > seen as non-self. Otherwise the Eightfold Path is not developed. All > wholesome qualities are mentioned in this sutta and they are anattaa. pt: This seeing it as non-self would be in what way though? If it was direct seeing of anatta, then that would be insight, not jhana, no? I was under the impression that with jhana-development, any right understanding can be only of conceptual nature, e.g. knowing the difference between kusala and akusala moments, but not understanding directly the anatta and other characteristics of it. Thus, only conceptual understanding of anatta seems possible (though it is not necessary for attaining jhana). Similarly, in post 104731 to Vince you say: N: In samaadhi or tranquil meditation understanding is necessary, it is pa~n~naa that directly knows whether the citta at that moment is kusala or akusala. This is not merely reflection, but direct understanding of the citta. In samatha pa~n~naa understand kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala, but not as anattaa. pt: Here I'm wondering about the part "this is a direct understanding of the citta" - does that mean one is already able to distinguish an individual dhamma (like citta) even before the actual stages of insight started to happen? I.e. I thought that conceptual understanding of a citta as a/kusala in samadhi means that dhammas cannot be known individually yet, but only as concepts about realities. Or perhaps my assumption that - knowing an individual dhamma directly (so not conceptually) before actual stages of insight is impossible - is wrong? Thanks. Best wishes pt #105014 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ptaus1 Dear Sarah, > S: Yes, I saw the same, but when I checked the Pali (before), I noted this: > > "1454. Katame dhammaa appaccayaa? Nibbaana.m - ime dhammaa appaccayaa." > > and then: > "1456. Katame dhammaa asa'nkhataa? Nibbaana.m - ime dhammaa asankhataa." > > In the Khine transl., he gives: > > "1454. What are the dhammaa which are not due to causes? There is Nibbaana. These are the dhammaa which are not due to causes." > > "1456. What are the dhammaa which are unconditioned? There is Nibbaana. These are the dhammaa which are unconditioned." Thanks, that's interesting, and makes the Aung&Rhys Davids translation a bit strange. > S: I remember also being perplexed about the sing/pl comments in the Atth. > > If there's an opportunity, I'll bring it up in the discussions in Bkk when Ken O gets into his 'Space' arguments:-) Thanks :) Best wishes pt #105015 From: "Mike" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 1:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary mikenz66 Hi ptaus, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > pt: With respect, I tend to think that the main issue here is probably the varying capacities of different people to actually bear with the ultimate terminology. I.e. most have no (conscious) experience of the ultimate, nor are they used to considering/discussing the dhamma in the ultimate terms... Mike: I don't believe that the disagreements that I see here are caused by a lack of capacity of some participants to discuss things in ultimate terminology. I think that the differences in approach are much more fundamental than that that. Metta Mike #105016 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 1:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau Hi pt, --------- <. . .> pt: > With respect, I tend to think that the main issue here is probably the varying capacities of different people to actually bear with the ultimate terminology. I.e. most have no (conscious) experience of the ultimate, nor are they used to considering/discussing the dhamma in the ultimate terms. Not sure if you're aware, but I think this is the only active online buddhist forum where the ultimate terminology is preferred. Thus, anyone coming here from other forums (as it was with me too) is immediately up for a "cultural shock" of sorts, and this easily leads to an argument (or just leaving the forum). ------------ Don't worry, pt, when it comes to gruff, straightforward language, people are remarkably resilient. It is the message, not the language, that is likely to upset their feelings. Here at DSG, the message is that the Buddha taught anatta (no self). Not everyone wants to hear that. Most Buddhists are strongly attached to the idea of becoming a better person. They don't want to know there is no person. We just have to persevere and discuss the Dhamma to the best of our respective abilities. If you can tell someone about anatta without hurting their feelings, please do so. I hope I can learn from you. Meanwhile I will struggle-on in my own way. :-) Ken H #105017 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 2:24 am Subject: Re: Relics ptaus1 Dear Sarah, > S: I gave some detail from other texts before (#101975) and have had a section in Sammohavinodanii ("Dispeller of Delusion") marked to quote for you as well. However, I just haven't had time - my mother's been staying and we leave on Thursday for a series of trips, starting with a wedding in Canberra. No worries, in the future you can just give a reference, I'll find it in the library when I'm there as I think it has most of PTS books. > So here's the reference to check when you next get to your excellent library (where?) It's the Fisher library of University of Sydney - just off Broadway in the park between Broadway and City road, you probably know it. I think anyone can come in and read, and members can borrow as well. I think they have most of the PTS books. I was really happy when I saw it all in one place. There's also a lot of other stuff, though mostly Mahayana. I also saw Nina's ADL, pocketsize edition, quite old, and when I opened it, something like half of the text was underlined by different pens, meaning people really found it useful - when I looked at the back, there were a lot and lot of stamps, borrowed many times. In comparison, when I looked at the back of the patthana translation, not a single stamp, so it seems it hasn't been borrowed a single time in all the years it's been there (until me that is or at least until they got in the electronic checkout a few years ago). > Ch 16, classification of knowledge, 2173ff, p.181 Here it is: 2173. There are three kinds of complete extinction: (1) complete extinction of the defilements, (2) complete extinction of the aggregates, (3) complete extinction of the relics. Herein, (1) complete extinction of the defilements took place on the Wisdom Seat, (2) the complete extinction of the aggregates [took place] at Kusinara and (3) the complete extinction of the relics will take place in the future. 2174. At the time of the withdrawal of the teaching, the relics in this island of Tambapanni being gathered together, will go to the Great Shrine and from the Great Shrine to the Royal tree (Rajayatana) Shrine in Nagadipa. From there they will go to the Great Wisdom Seat. From the Naga world, the world of deities and the world of Brahma, the relics will also go to the Great Wisdom Seat. Of the relics, not even as much as a mustard seed will be lost meanwhile. Heaped up on the Great Wisdom Seat, the will become one solid [mass] like a pile of gold and will emit the six-colored rays. These will pervade the ten-thousandfold world system. Thereupon, the deities in the ten-thousandfold world system having come together [saying:] "Today the Master attains to complete extinction, today the Dispensation is withdrawn now is our last sigh [of it]," will feel more compassion than on the day of the Ten Powered One's complete extinction. Excepting the Non-Returners and those whose cankers are destroyed, the rest will not of their own nature be able to stand firm. [note 57] The fire element will spring up in the relics and will mount up to the Brahma world; while there is still a relic the size of a mustard seed, the flame will continue. It will be extinguished when the relics come to an end. After demonstrating their great power thus, when the relics have disappeared, the Dispensation is termed disappeared. As long as they have not disappeared thus, it is "not after". Thus it is that [two Enlightened Ones] "should arise simultaneously - that is not possible". Alas, if only I was a bit of a Mahayanist in my heart, I would interpret "Today the Master attains to complete extinction" to mean that the Buddha is still out there somewhere in a rarefied form and will keep looking after us as long as his relics haven't burned out completely in the final extinction... Best wishes pt #105018 From: Lukas Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 4:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re:kamma. szmicio Dear Chuck, I am not quite sure I get what you're asking. I will answer in more wider sense. >C: May this ole Texican inject in your conversation? > >Questions: > >1. At what point do you stop killing? L: I just dont kill. But I am aware that 'killing' can drop in into our lifes anytime. Like my Grandma bought this year a carp for Christmas. This was also my fault I didnt mentioned that i dont want a carp this year. She decided to go and bought it. And the carp was still living. So I couldnt bear that it's sufering. I was thinking maybe to kill it. He was dying for a few hours. There was intention to kill. I could not choose my intentions, they just arise and fall away ;> I also know my grandma had intention too, she went to the shop and bought it. Maybe she thought about family, that is nice to have a fish, or maybe she was intended to have it because other people has it each year. This intention conditions kamma. This is a kamma. It arises and fall away. Vipassana means not only to devlop kusala, but the most important to develop understanding of each dhamma in life. This understanding conditions kusala development. >2. When you wash your face, you are killing. Now, that you know you are >killing when you wash your face; will you stop washing your face? L: Even when I want to pick up somethin from a floor, there is intention. But this is not intention to kill. This is simply the intention to pick up something. The intention to kill has it's object a concept of a person, I think. >Now, that you know you are >killing when you wash your face; will you stop >washing your face? L: I cannot stop anything at all;> Those are different intentions that stop and move a hand, not me ;> The world just looks like a lot of control, but in reality that is only conditioned element that can do or intend. I think we slowly slowly can learn this. And this is very slow way. >3. Again, at what point do you stop killing? L: This is possible to stop killing. Really. That is also possible to develop more understanding that all is conditioned. anatta. The concept, when we had a wise friend who reminds us killing is bad, or reading a Sutta, that can condition more understaning that killing should be abandoned(samatha) and that each dhamma is conditioned and no one who abandoned(vipassana). This is not in contradiction. Best wishes Lukas #105019 From: Lukas Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 4:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. szmicio Dear Vince, Agree. I also think anataness or emptiness, and all out of control ideas really support metta very much. Best wishes Lukas > > When you have a metta you dont need to think oh this > person did this because of that or maybe.... > > Metta dont need any thoughts, > > I agree very much. In that immediate spontaneity there is a > big > difference.? Even more in these times, where the > neurotic abuse of > human emotions can be really shameful. #105020 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 5:04 pm Subject: Rejoicing Joy! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Unselfish Joy: How to rejoice in others Success: By seeing that: If only happy at one's own success, such ego Joy is rare and limited! If happy also at others success, the Joy is more frequent & even infinite! By observing that: It starts with basic sympathy, develops into acceptance, genuine approval and appreciation. It culminates in rejoicing mutual joy by directing mind to initiation, frequent cultivation and boundless expansion of Mutual Joy.. By knowing that: Mutual Joy is the proximate cause of satisfied contentment! Mutual Joy eliminates all acidic jealousy, grudge and green envy! Mutual Joy is an infinite, truly divine, infinite and sublime mental state! Buddha: If it were impossible to cultivate this Good, I would not tell you to do so! Buddhaghosa: See how this good being is very Happy! How fine! How excellent! How sweet! Let there be Happiness. Let there be open Freedom. Let there be Peace. Let there be Bliss from this. Let there be Understanding of this Mutual Joy! Mudita: The Buddha's Teaching on Unselfish Joy: BPS Wheel Publication No. 170 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel170.html Have a nice, noble and joyous day! Friendship is the Greatest! http://What-Buddha-Said.net Rejoicing Joy! #105021 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 6:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear Ken H I just felt that your approach should be more tone down and not generalising like <> We cannot be sure of this because A Sujin teacher could have other students even though may not be as prominent as her. Also when we dicuss we should focus on helping and not turning discussions into long argument which is not helpful or beneficial to other people. That could be your accumulations but still we should understand this dhamma when it arise. We do not know whether at that moment of writing your statements or undiplomatic style, is it a form of a sakkaya ditthi or conceit that arise to say this or that. I also have many sakkayaditthi or conceit especially when speaking to my juniors at work. It is something I am aware which I still could not "get rid" of this accumulations, it takes panna to slowly eradicate. We should be aware, dhammas are not self so lets not change it, whether people understand it or not, it is up to them. We should not be concern about others understanding . It is up to individual. thanks Ken O > >From: kenhowardau >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thursday, 4 February 2010 6:15:13 >Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary > > >Hi Ken O, > >------ ><. . .> >KO: You remind of a story just like a mother who tell off his son and then said the son to be hit by a bull, but inside her heart she does not even wish a leaf to fall onto the son. You are similar to the mother. >------ > >Thanks for casting me in a good light, I am sure I don't deserve it. :-) > >You and I have already discussed right/wrong speech on the subject of formal vipassana practice. We clearly disagree. I say we should warn people against it in the best way we can, even if that way is not very nice. > >Imagine, for example, that you were warning a group of children not to swim in the river because there were crocodiles there. If they replied, "Dad said it would be all right," what would you say then? Would you keep quiet? Or would you continue warning them at the risk of insulting a respected parent? > >Let's be honest; wrong view is much more dangerous than a crocodile. Let's warn each other against it as best we can, when we can, and worry about the social niceties later. :-) > >Ken H > > > #105022 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? ashkenn2k Dear Colette Saddness is just another dosa, which is a dhamma that could be understand by panna.? Only through panna could dosa be understood clearly and eradicated. Saddness, sympathy, attachment are all dhammas?.? We should understand it as not self and not immerse in it as aksuala only conditioned more akusala.? With metta Ken O >? >Hi Ken O, > >I like how you equated "saddness" to development on the path. > >THEORY: > >Aren't we, when we exude this negative emotion of sadness, aren't we then attaching that sadness and that pain and that negativity to a person, to a thing, etc, which, THEN, does as you theorize, retarding that individual's progress toward ENLIGHTENMENT and the cessation of suffering? > >We do have an effect of THE DEAD and THE DEAD have effects on us, no? Isn't this a perfect example of the meaning of TRANSCENDENCE? How can DEATH transcend and impune upon our lives when DEATH is not real? Death is as illusionary as life is, no? They are the same coin, no? > >Sure, I can undestand Nina's pain, at this moment, and I sympathize w/ her however, I have been pondering that one of my best friends in the Buddhist community has begun a three year retreat and so I won't get much interaction w/ him if any interaction. Isn't that, the loss, of one of the few friends I have, similar to a DEATH? I found many high school friends on FAcebook, and after thirty years I felt overjoyed to speak w/ people that have the same consciousness as myself, toward an aspect of existance that they participated in w/ me. Since finding them I do not have time to dwell on doing all the work for them when they have no use in their illusionary lives for me and my illusionary life, so, isn't this just another death I might suffer if I could find some reason to be attached to them? They were not there originally so how can they be there or here NOW? The Present Dharma cannot exist w/o the Past Dharma conditioning it. > #105023 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] terms and realities. ashkenn2k Dear Vince >of course; in that point we are in agreement. >But where I point is, What is conditionality? . > >We say kamma is the condition for consciousness but we know kamma is >not a dhamma; it is just understanding, a law. Kamma then it's a >conventional truth. Kamma formations are sustained by ignorance. >What is the condition of ignorance?. KO: Kamma is two fold, as a result and as a cause a. As a result is in the formations (after ignorance of D.O.), our sense sphere cittas are all kamma results b. As a cause which is seen in the becoming of D.O. , the cause of next life To make it easier to understand, seeing citta is a kamma result, without seeing citta one is unable to see. But after seeing citta, during the sense process, there could be lobha which arise with the object of the seeing (i.e. visible objects). This lobha which condition becoming. This is the conditonality. What condition ignorance - the taints or latency. >"And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the >cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of >ignorance? Not knowing about dukkha, not knowing about the origin of >dukkha, not knowing about the cessation of dukkha, not knowing about >the way leading to the cessation of dukkha — this is called >ignorance." >MN 9 - http://www.accessto insight.org/ ptf/dhamma/ sacca/sacca2/ avijja.html > >my point is: by understanding conditionality we follow the way to be >free of dukkha, and by ignoring conditionality there is dukkha. >Conditionality then, is a key matter: K.O.: Yes conditonality is a key characteristics. We should understand it as the characteristics of the dhamma in the arisen of the six senses as in D.O and not as conditionality itself. Because ignorance is the key, conditionality is the characteristics of dhamma in this samasara. Panna is also condition, so we should focus on the cause or the key which is ignorance and not the conditionality. > >> KO: the outer and inner is not important. Also it does not >> matter where it arise and where it goes, as they are not helping in >> our direct understanding of the reality. It is the unwholesome >> mental factors or cetasikas like lobha or lust that is the >> importance, that we should understand as it arise or understand the >> reality of these cetasikas. Using the sutta you quote, > >> “Not so, friend Koììhika. The eye is not the bond of objects, nor are >> objects the bond of the eye, but that desire and lust that arise owing >> to these two. That is the bond. And so with the tongue and the >> mind… it is the desire and lust that arise owing to savours and >> tongue, mind-objects and mind. > >and I agree. In this case the bond is lust, and there are many other >type of bonds. >But the point is: What is the bond?. KO: Ignorance which is the cause of our present birth and lobha which cause our next birth, that is the bond. >I don't understand in that way. Lust don't cause self. Attachment to >what becomes here and now is causing lust, and when we find pleasure >in lust, it is what feed the self. From here there is dukkha, because >when what is becoming and causing lust comes to an end, also there >is a cease of lust. And then also our pleasant state in lust. >Due there is not a cease of our attachment to what is no more here and >now, so in that way we are deceived, sad, angry or whatever. KO: Lust could not arise without moha. It is moha that hides the impermanence, suffering and not self. It is not lust that hide. Lust of a wrong view manifest the view of a self of a dhamma, it is not ignorance that manifest. But it is ignorance that hide the truth of suffering. Lust if of a few kinds and each type of lust need a different level of panna to eradicate. Lust of a wrong view of self is eradicate by stream entrant, lust for sensual object - anagami, lust for rupa and arupa existence - Arahant. > >> Rather the bond is the result of the coming together of the >> eye and objects with the arisen of lust. > >but if we put in a table one eye in front some object, there is not >lust, there is not bond. >What it's so?. KO: In the sense process, there are only three javanas. Kusala, akusala or kiriya. If at that moment there is no panna arise to understand the characteristics that appear in our mind, (for this instance thinking as table is a concept), then it is lobha unless one is a Arahant. We could not see lobha at work because lobha could arise with indifference and this make it extremely difficult to be aware of. However when panna is keener and keener, one will be able to detect it. With metta Ken O #105024 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 7:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhaniya Sutta (5) ashkenn2k Dear Nina and Han KO:? When we discard this being to another being, there would not be another Ken O, Nina or Han.? Just like we do not know what we are in the past live whether we are another human or not.? It is just dhammas condition dhamma.?? Weary, tired, be it rupa or nama, they?only conditions more aksuala, look at it as dhamma.? Dont treat aggregate as burden,?understand it as dhamma, then panna would arise and accumulates.? When panna arise,?it is always courageous, it is always patient be it this life and next lives. Cheers Ken O > >? >Dear Han, >Op 4-feb-2010, om 5:39 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > >> I will then discard them at the moment of my death, only to take up >> another burden of aggregates at the moment of rebirth. I am now >> weary of the heavy load. But I must have courage, just as you said! >--------- >N: The being that takes up another burden is not you or me. It is >another being, but this is hard to really understand. That new being >is conditioned by this being now. I can repeat these words, but I >find it difficult to really understand this in all its implications. >The Middle Way is, as Howard said, very subtle. >> > #105025 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 7:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 16. ashkenn2k Dear Dieter > >The Buddha refered to the long, long time passed until his enlightenment >when he (re-) discovered the ancient path, but due to his proclaiming >understanding and penetration is possible this very lifetime. And so his >conclusive statement at the end of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta needs to be >understood : if anybody would develop >these four frames... for seven years etc. .. of course this will be >difficult leading the (comfortable) life of an householder. . but not >impossible at least to reach the state of stream-entrance like we know from KO:? It is understandable to be easily sway by his statements in the suttas.? We all?yearn to have a chance to be enlighted quickly and seek refuge from suffering including me.? ?We?also must undersand it takes time.??At Buddha times,? some disciples take less then seven days to be enlighted but for some it take years, some may?not?in that?very life.? This is due to their level of development.? We should not hasten it, the more we cling to a idea that we could do it within a that period say by Buddha,??the more lobha?will grow.? We should see dhamma as it arise and not otherwise.? With metta Ken O #105026 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 7:11 am Subject: Re:kamma. dhammasaro Good friend Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > I am not quite sure I get what you're asking. > I will answer in more wider sense.<...> C: This ole cantankerous Texican asked just three simple questions on killing. It is up to you, as a monk or a layperson, to decide at what point you stop killing. If you meditate; perhaps, it (killing) may be an idea to ponder... It matters not to me. I made my decision. I live with my decision. No further discussion. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #105027 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 7:46 am Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 15 ashkenn2k Dear friends Q. : The problem is that when an object impinges on one of the doorways I am bound to be forgetful, I lack sati. S. : That is quite normal. When sati is still weak yet it cannot arise immediately. Q. : I have studied the text the monks chant in the morning, about the khandhas of clinging, upad?na khandhas. There is clinging to the five khandhas and this is dukkha. What does this mean? S. : The five khandhas of clinging are certainly dukkha. So long as there is ignorance of the true nature of the dhammas which appear, there is bound to be happiness and sorrow. The arising of happiness and sorrow is a kind of dukkha, because at such moments there is no calm, no freedom from defilements. People do not know the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta when pa??? does not arise. We all enjoy having lobha. There is no end to the enjoyment of lobha, unless pa??? discerns the difference between the moment of kusala, when there is non-attachment, and the moment of lobha, when there is pleasure, amusement, desire, enjoyment or clinging. When pa??? does not arise, we enjoy defilements, we like to have lobha; it never is enough, no matter whether we experience an object through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense or the mind-door. Generally people do not know that such moments are dukkha, that they are harmful and dangerous. Thus, the five khandhas of clinging are dukkha. ? ? to be continued ? Ken O #105028 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 7:36 am Subject: Re: Ajahn Jumnien, was: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship dhammasaro Good friend pt, et al C: Yes, I think it is Multiply. They took over the blogs from MSN. I let my two blogs, one on general Buddhism and one on Theravada Buddhism cease to exist. I joined an existing Theravada blog on Multiply. The Theravada blog is: http://88000.multiply.com/ On Ajahn Jumnien: http://88000.multiply.com/music/item/149/Ajahn_Jumnien Warm thanks pt for visiting. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #105029 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 7:52 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 2 No 7 ashkenn2k Dear Friends Question: When there is seeing through the eyes and we know that it is a pen, it shows that we know the word pen through the mind-door. Is that right? ? S.: Before we can think of the word pen we already know a concept. A pa??atti is not merely sadda pa??atti, a concept of sound, a word or name. ? Question: After seeing I remember what was seen. Is the object then already a concept? ? S. The P??i term pa??atti means: it makes something known (derived from pa???peti). ? Question: Must each of the sense-door processes be followed by a mind-door process so that the meaning of things can be known? ? S. The five sense objects which are visible object, sound, odour, flavour, and tangible object appear through two doorways. Thus, visible object appears through the eyedoor and then, after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between, it appears through the mind-door. In the same way sound, odour, flavour, and tangible object appear through the corresponding sense-doors and then through the mind-door. ? to be continued ? ? Ken O #105030 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 11:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Desire and Delight for Dhamma" Dhammaraga & Dhammanandi truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Dear Nina and Alex, > > I'm a bit confused here whether the two of you are agreeing or disagreeing? > > As I understand Alex, he's saying it's okay to be attached to samatha-vipassana because that attachment will lead to anagami stage. > > As I understand Nina, it is not attachment to samatha-vipassana that leads to anagami stage, but it is understanding attachment of any sort (and letting go of it as a by-product of understanding) that leads to anagami stage, and further to arahantship if the final residue of attachment (which is to the actual samatha-vipassana now) has been abandoned. > > Do I understand your positions correctly? Thanks. > > Best wishes > pt Hello Pt, all, To say that you need to drop all desire, all doing to become an Arhat is like putting a cart before the horse. Up to some point, attachment is inevitable, so make a lemonade out of a lemon. Attach to wholesome states to drop the unwholesome, then eventually drop the attachment to wholesome states as well. The path is gradual, at least for most of us. To avoid doing kusala things because "thats just attachment. Arhats don't need that" is like dropping the raft in the middle of the sea! You'll drown! An interesting thing is that when you deny a certain object of attachment, the mind goes after another object. So if the mind is going to be attached, the samatha-vipassana is better than being attached to music, drugs and parties. With metta, Alex #105031 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 11:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 16. moellerdieter Dear Ken O, (Nina ) thanks for your comment .. wondering whether you like to prepare the ground for Nina to answer ;-) (KenO answered : 'It is not strange, it is the context being said. Buddha, chief disciples takes many aeons to accomplish their panna. ) D: sorry , I did not take it serious, Ken ... what context ? The wording is ' if anybody would develop >these four frames ' you wrote: (D: The Buddha refered to the long, long time passed until his enlightenment >when he (re-) discovered the ancient path, but due to his proclaiming >understanding and penetration is possible this very lifetime. And so his >conclusive statement at the end of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta needs to be >understood : if anybody would develop >these four frames... for seven years etc. .. of course this will be >difficult leading the (comfortable) life of an householder. . but not >impossible at least to reach the state of stream-entrance like we know from KO: It is understandable to be easily sway by his statements in the suttas. We all yearn to have a chance to be enlighted quickly and seek refuge from suffering including me. We also must undersand it takes time. At Buddha times, some disciples take less then seven days to be enlighted but for some it take years, some may not in that very life. This is due to their level of development. We should not hasten it, the more we cling to a idea that we could do it within a that period say by Buddha, the more lobha will grow. We should see dhamma as it arise and not otherwise. D: we are speaking of the instructions concerning the establishment of Right Mindfulness /Sati and its possible fruit even in half a month.. We know how diffficult that is to stay focused , be aware of what is happening here and now within the framework of body, feeling, mind state and mind objects for hours , not to talk about days ....but as the Buddha stated : it is not impossible. It may have taken aeons that a Buddha appeared in this world .. but now as the teacher passed away as well as his chief disciples , the teacher lives (still) by his teaching , the Buddha Dhamma Vinaya. It is up to us to seek advise from a monk or a nun who lives according to the doctrine and discipline (vinaya) who could be like one of his chief disciples ...or - even better - to decide to seek permission to join the Order. Otherwise we are on our own with a base knowledge of Dhamma and certain level of right understanding how to approach the path leading to cessation of suffering. And that understanding is certainly enough for the gross or some finer details for one's training. Ken , you speak of hasten .. but what is there to hasten in a declared Middle Way between ascesis and indulgence ? You mean jumping in negligence of the gradual development of penetration and understanding? Ken : the more we cling to a idea that we could do it within a that period say by Buddha, the more lobha will grow. D: when that goes along with the energy and decisiveness to reach for the un-reached ..fine , I remember some essays about chanda .. but in fact such effort is not necessarily connected with lust .. Ken: We should see dhamma as it arise and not otherwise. D: but what does that mean in respect to our practise , not being lip service? Does that not mean to train oneself as much as possible to do that within the framework of the satipatthana? And the more we able to do it in the here and now , the time for the fruit is becoming shorter. That is a comfort for the effort and training in concentration , not necessarily ogling at success. Long, long time .. many lives towards liberation is not what the Buddha proclaimed for those who (understand ) suffer (ing), good to recall : 'Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Now, then, monks, I exhort you: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about completion by being heedful." Those were the Tathagata's last words.' DN 16 with Metta Dieter #105032 From: "Mike" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 12:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary mikenz66 Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > KenH: Here at DSG, the message is that the Buddha taught anatta (no self). Not everyone wants to hear that. Most Buddhists are strongly attached to the idea of becoming a better person. They don't want to know there is no person. Mike: Are you really serious? Mike: Since you appear to dismiss all Buddhist teachers apart from Khun Sujin followers you leave little opportunity for discussion. Mike: I find this rather disappointing, since there are clearly quite a lot of interesting aspects of Dhamma to be discussed, but I get a little bored with the simplistic application of the argument that: "There is no self, therefore X is impossible...", which seems to be used to dismiss any discussion. Metta Mike #105033 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 1:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau Hi Mike, ---- > M: > Since you appear to dismiss all Buddhist teachers apart from Khun Sujin followers you leave little opportunity for discussion. ---- I wish I could say, "But I didn't start this!" :-) Looking back, I can see that I did start it. Dieter posted a lecture by Ajahn Cha and I asked him if he saw any actual information in it - or was it just smoke and mirrors? I am sorry to have done that in connection with a particular teacher, I should have asked the question in a more general context. But I am not sorry for asking the general question, "Do popular, modern-day versions of the Dhamma contain any real information, or are they just feel-good psychobabble? ------------- M: > I find this rather disappointing, since there are clearly quite a lot of interesting aspects of Dhamma to be discussed, but I get a little bored with the simplistic application of the argument that: "There is no self, therefore X is impossible...", which seems to be used to dismiss any discussion. ------------- If you believe X is possible, even in view of anatta, then you should say so. That would set up an excellent discussion. Ken H #105034 From: han tun Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 3:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhaniya Sutta (5) hantun1 Dear KO, KO: When we discard this being to another being, there would not be another Ken O, Nina or Han. Just like we do not know what we are in the past live whether we are another human or not. It is just dhammas condition dhamma. Weary, tired, be it rupa or nama, they only conditions more aksuala, look at it as dhamma. *Dont treat aggregate as burden*, understand it as dhamma, then panna would arise and accumulates. When panna arise, it is always courageous, it is always patient be it this life and next lives. Han: I respect your personal opinion, like I have respected the opinion of all other members. But for me, I will *treat* the five aggregates as a *burden*, because the Buddha said so. -------------------- Extract from SN 22.22 Bhaara Sutta: The Burden, translated by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. At Saavatthi: There the Blessed One said this. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you the burden, the carrier of the burden, the taking up of the burden, and the laying down of the burden. Listen to that: "And what, bhikkhus is the burden? It should be said: the five aggregates subject to clinging. What five? The form aggregate subject to clinging, the feeling aggregate subject to clinging, the perception aggregate subject to clinging, the volitional formations aggregate subject to clinging, the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging. This is called the burden. -------------------- Kind regards, Han #105035 From: "Mike" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 4:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary mikenz66 Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > KenH: If you believe X is possible, even in view of anatta, then you should say so. That would set up an excellent discussion. Mike: But it would quickly be back to the same old repetitive argument. Almost every Buddhist teacher (outside the Khun Sujin circle and maybe some other circles that I have yet to hear about) speaks about approaches that will hasten the arising of the correct understanding of anatta, "lack of control", and all the other things that I believe we agree are correct Dhamma. While there will be differences in detail, they all (at least the ones I pay attention to) agree with you about end-point (anatta, etc). However, they disagree with you you on the means to that end. Mike: Certainly, that's what I get from reading Ajahn Chah, Mahasi Sayadaw, U Pandita, and so on. Of course, you can pull some of their some their statements out of context and claim that they are not speaking in ultimate terms, and are therefore anti-anatta-ists, or worse. But I think that really misses the overall point of their teachings. Metta Mike #105036 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 4:09 pm Subject: Pure as GOLD! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Praise or Blame. Fame or Failure! The Buddha said about BLAME: This, Atula, is an ancient saying, yet timeless and thus relevant even today: They blame the one, who talks much. They blame the one, who says little. They even blame the silent one... No one in this world is never blamed! Dhammapada Illustration 227, Background Story 227-230 FACT There never was, nor will there ever be, nor does there exist one now, who is only praised or only blamed .... Dhammapada Illustration 228, Background Story 227-230 PRAISED The one examined carefully by the wise, yet still praised as peerless, wise, learned and genuinely good, like a ring of refined gold, who can ever rightly blame such one? Even the divine and Brahma praise such one! Dhammapada Illustration 229-30, Background Story 227-230 Comments: The Buddha once asked his students, "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech." -SN 45.8 He also taught: "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & faultless by knowledgeable people. Which five? It is spoken at the right time. It is truth. It is kind. It is advantageous. And it is spoken with a mind of good-will." -AN 5.198 In addition to right speech, the Exalted Master taught us to develop other skilful qualities of intention, thoughts, words, and actions, in order to become peerless, wise, learned, good, blameless, and praised. These are right view, right motivation, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right awareness and right concentration. Practicing in this way, we not only acquire peace for ourselves, through admiration, we also improve society, and our reputation... Other skilful qualities we can develop are present moment awareness, conviction, persistence, understanding, and analysis as well as kind metta, compassion, truly altruistic joy, equanimity, generosity, virtue, and patience. The development, prolonging and maintenance of these skilful states of mind not only benefit ourselves, they expand outward, like sweet rings in water! When we meditate upon which of these qualities we need to develop and how to go about increasing and sustaining them, we are rightly praised by all beings EVEN THE DIVINE, and are able to gradually approach the pure, tranquil, and entirely stilled state, NIBBANA! Pure as GOLD! <...> Pure as GOLD! With Metta, Jonathan #105037 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 7:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau Hi Mike, ------------- <. . .> KH: > > If you believe X is possible, even in view of anatta, then you should say so. That would set up an excellent discussion. >> M: > But it would quickly be back to the same old repetitive argument. Almost every Buddhist teacher (outside the Khun Sujin circle and maybe some other circles that I have yet to hear about) speaks about approaches that will hasten the arising of the correct understanding of anatta, "lack of control", and all the other things that I believe we agree are correct Dhamma. -------------- Yes, but do you know *why* there is no control? When we are speaking about ultimate reality (the soulless namas and rupas that are arising now at one of the six doorways) there is no scope for the concept of control. It is simply irrelevant. ---------------------- M : > While there will be differences in detail, they all (at least the ones I pay attention to) agree with you about end-point (anatta, etc). However, they disagree with you on the means to that end. Certainly, that's what I get from reading Ajahn Chah, Mahasi Sayadaw, U Pandita, and so on. Of course, you can pull some of their statements out of context and claim that they are not speaking in ultimate terms, and are therefore anti-anatta-ists, or worse. But I think that really misses the overall point of their teachings. ----------------------- Basically, the difference is: some teachers are talking about "things to do" while other teachers are talking about understanding the present moment. In the present moment there is no scope for things to do. The concept is irrelevant. Ken H #105038 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 8:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ptaus1 Hi Mike, > Mike: I don't believe that the disagreements that I see here are caused by a lack of capacity of some participants to discuss things in ultimate terminology. I think that the differences in approach are much more fundamental than that that. pt: Could you then please explain a bit how you see the fundamental differences? Perhaps that would help to address the particular difficulties that you've encoutered. In my case, I really had a lot of trouble understanding DSG folks until the terminology difference became clear. For example, I remember one thing that used to be really frustrating was reading things like "there can't be purposeful development of awareness" and then in the very next paragraph reading "we should develop awareness". I just couldn't understand this kind of stuff until considering the terminology: - in ultimate terms (in the world of very fast cittas and cetasikas), there's no point speaking about concepts like purposeful effort, peole making effort, people meditating, etc. All that just doesn't apply, as there are only conditioned dhammas here which keep arising and falling very fast. - in conventional terms (in the world of concepts like people, activities, etc) it can be said that one can develop awareness, one can make effort, but then it becomes crucial to understand what is the difference between kusala and akusala effort. I.e. not all effort that arises is necessarily kusala, so the core issue is how to differentiate them, without falling into the trap of equating a/kusala dhammas with conventional activities, which are concepts, not dhammas. E.g. if conventional activity of "making effort" is equated to a good thing that leads to liberation (kusala), then the conventional activity of "not making effort" is necessarily equated with a bad thing (aksuala) etc. The problem of course is that the conventional activities of "not/making effort" as concepts have nothing to do with kusala/akusala, because it is not concepts, but viriya dhamma, which is the effort in reality, and which can be both kusala and akusala, and can change from one to the other many, many times while a conventional person is engaged in the conventional activity of "making effort" for example. So to me, the heart of confusion is basically when the two worlds of ultimate and conventional are brought together in a mismatched manner. If this is not what's confusing you, then please explain your problem in a bit more detail so that it can be addressed. Best wishes pt #105039 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 8:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ptaus1 Hi KenH, > K: Here at DSG, the message is that the Buddha taught anatta (no self). Not everyone wants to hear that. Most Buddhists are strongly attached to the idea of becoming a better person. They don't want to know there is no person. > > We just have to persevere and discuss the Dhamma to the best of our respective abilities. If you can tell someone about anatta without hurting their feelings, please do so. I hope I can learn from you. Meanwhile I will struggle-on in my own way. :-) pt: Thanks for discussing this. I keep wondering how anatta can be explained in the best way, so I hope this discussion can help, though I realise it's a bit more of a meta-discussion than dhamma-discussion. Anyway, here's first the statement of the problem (as I see it) in explaining anatta, and then we can discuss the possible ways of solving the problem. When it comes to the core of your message that: "Most Buddhists are strongly attached to the idea of becoming a better person. They don't want to know there is no person." I agree in theory here, and my thinking is that what you say above will become clear to a person only with second tender insight knowledge, when there's direct realisation of conditionality, and hence, it becomes terribly obvious that there is no person, no activity (like meditating or reading), but only dhammas conditioning one another. Before this, however, the only possible way of understanding anatta would have to be conceptual. So the problem then in explaining and understnading anatta between two people who have not yet come to the second insight stage is that all explanations and comprehension will inevitably have to be based on conceptual views. And when it comes to conceptual views, the problem is that they mostly operate in opposites/extremes. That's the core problem I think. Or in other words, it's the difficulty of understanding things according to the middle way that's free from both extremes. An easy example that I think you've encountered many times is when saying "there is no person" in order to point to the conceptual understanding of anatta - it usually becomes misinterpreted as the extreme view of anihiltaionism. Or similarly, when said that there cannot be purposeful bhavana (or effort) because it contradicts anatta - it's misinterpreted as saying that there is no bhavana (or effort) happening whatsoever. So, I keep wondering how can this very subtle, but immensely important difference be presented in a way that would not make people jump to extreme conclusions of anihilationism, no bhavana, no development, no effort, etc. I mean all these are just wrong interpretations of what you are saying, or what K.Sujin is saying for that matter, and yet I constantly see people jumping to these wrong conclusions on this and other forums. And of course, the argument always turns into the extreme polarisation of eternalism vs anihilationsm (e.g. either I make effort, or I make no effort, while the elusive non-purposeful kusala effort remains beyond comprehension). Anyway, that's the statement of the problem as I see it. Now, I wish I had a formula for solving the problem, but at the moment the only thing I can think of is to stress the ultimate/conventional terminology difference, because that's how the problem got solved in my case at least (at least I hope it did :) I'll explain this in a post to Mike in more detail so as not to repeat twice). If you perhaps have some ideas about this, I'll be glad to hear about them. Best wishes pt #105040 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 8:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Desire and Delight for Dhamma" Dhammaraga & Dhammanandi ptaus1 Hi Alex, I think there's one fundamental assumption that you are making here, which only confuses the matters - I used to make the same mistake until recently when KenO explained it a bit. When you say: > A: To say that you need to drop all desire, all doing to become an Arhat is like putting a cart before the horse. > Up to some point, attachment is inevitable This is conventionally correct, because it can be said that until one is an arahant, there will be some attachment left that he hasn't abandoned yet. However, if you consider the "abhidhamma method" with classification of momentary cittas as kusala and akusala, then, whenever a kusala citta arises, there is no(!) attachment at that moment. I.e. the citta roots at that moment are alobha, adosa (and possibly) amoha. So, no attachment arising at that particualr moment regardless of the fact that the person is still a worldling. This leads to an important conclusion that if there is attachment (lobha) arising together with the citta at this moment, then that citta is akusala. This then means that there is no root of alobha arising at that moment, which means that there is no(!) right view at that moment. Without right view, there is no 8-fold noble path. Therefore, an akusala moment like this cannot lead to liberation. It is then irrelevant what concept is actually the object of akusala citta like this - it can be the concept of making effort, person, cake, vipassana, meditation, etc. Regardless, the citta at that moment is akusala and does not lead to liberation. Does this make sense? Best wishes pt #105041 From: "Mike" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 9:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary mikenz66 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > ------------- > <. . .> > KH: > > If you believe X is possible, even in view of anatta, then you should say so. That would set up an excellent discussion. >> > > M: > But it would quickly be back to the same old repetitive argument. Almost every Buddhist teacher (outside the Khun Sujin circle and maybe some other circles that I have yet to hear about) speaks about approaches that will hasten the arising of the correct understanding of anatta, "lack of control", and all the other things that I believe we agree are correct Dhamma. > -------------- > > KH: Yes, but do you know *why* there is no control? > Mike: Yes, and so do all the teachers you keep criticising. > When we are speaking about ultimate reality (the soulless namas and rupas that are arising now at one of the six doorways) there is no scope for the concept of control. It is simply irrelevant. > Mike: Yes, I agree, and so do all the teachers you keep criticising. > ---------------------- > M : > While there will be differences in detail, they all (at least the ones I pay attention to) agree with you about end-point (anatta, etc). However, they disagree with you on the means to that end. > > M:Certainly, that's what I get from reading Ajahn Chah, Mahasi Sayadaw, U Pandita, and so on. Of course, you can pull some of their statements out of context and claim that they are not speaking in ultimate terms, and are therefore anti-anatta-ists, or worse. But I think that really misses the overall point of their teachings. > ----------------------- > > KH: Basically, the difference is: some teachers are talking about "things to do" while other teachers are talking about understanding the present moment. In the present moment there is no scope for things to do. The concept is irrelevant. > Mike: Yes, and this is where we differ. In my opinion the argument I see here (and this is an answer to PT's question) use on a very particular application of the paramattha dhamma concept to reject any other points of view. Sure there are only paramattha dhammas. However, there is a body-mind that on a conventional level processes information and learns skills (such as reading Dhamma and discussing it on the Internet). Despite various attempts, I've yet to see a convincing argument (I've seen some attempts) why the approach you advocate is any less "things to do" than the instructions of other teachers. Metta Mike #105042 From: "Mike" Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 9:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary mikenz66 Hi PT, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > PT: So to me, the heart of confusion is basically when the two worlds of ultimate and conventional are brought together in a mismatched manner. If this is not what's confusing you, then please explain your problem in a bit more detail so that it can be addressed. > I agree. I would also add that there is sometimes inappropriate over-interpretation of the ultimate when it would be more useful to use conventional terms. I gave an comparison some time ago of using the quantum theory of light (i.e. photons) to discuss simple observations that can be better analysed using conventional classical optics. If one tried to use the full quantum theory of light to analyse such simple things as lenses and mirrors, one would soon conclude that designing a telescope was much too difficult... Metta Mike #105043 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 12:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Desire and Delight for Dhamma" Dhammaraga & Dhammanandi ptaus1 Hi Alex, I think there's one fundamental assumption that you are making here, which only confuses the matters - I used to make the same mistake until recently when KenO explained it a bit. When you say: > A: To say that you need to drop all desire, all doing to become an Arhat is like putting a cart before the horse. > Up to some point, attachment is inevitable This is conventionally correct, because it can be said that until one is an arahant, there will be some attachment left that he hasn't abandoned yet. However, if you consider the "abhidhamma method" with classification of momentary cittas as kusala and akusala, then, whenever a kusala citta arises, there is no(!) attachment at that moment. I.e. the citta roots at that moment are alobha, adosa (and possibly) amoha. So, no attachment arising at that particualr moment regardless of the fact that the person is still a worldling. This leads to an important conclusion that if there is attachment (lobha) arising together with the citta at this moment, then that citta is akusala. This then means that there is no root of amoha (wisdom) arising at that moment, which means that there is no(!) right view at that moment. Without right view, there is no 8-fold noble path. Therefore, an akusala moment like this cannot lead to liberation. It is then irrelevant what concept is actually the object of akusala citta like this - it can be the concept of making effort, person, cake, vipassana, meditation, etc. Regardless, the citta at that moment is akusala and does not lead to liberation. Does this make sense? Best wishes pt #105044 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 1:26 am Subject: Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) jonoabb Hi Dieter (104941) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > D: I thinks it is unlikely that the Buddha would describe the nature of the mind of his noble disciples in a simile using a monkey > (swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. ...) > =============== We need to bear in mind the context. Here, the nature of the 'mind' is being contrasted with the nature of the body, in terms of apparent rate of change. What is being highlighted by the simile, as I see it, is that with the mind there is a moment of seeing followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, then a moment of hearing followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, then a moment of bodily contact followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, then a moment of seeing again followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, and so on. This incessant change of the object of consciousness applies as much to the instructed noble disciple as it does to the uninstructed worldling, independent of the level of accumulated defilements (or lack of same) of the mind. In other words, the monkey simile is being used to describe what is common to the mind of all classes of beings. Sure there are differences between the mind of the uninstructed worldling and that of the instructed noble disciple, but that it is not those differences that are being addressed by the simile. Jon #105045 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 1:32 am Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 jonoabb Hi pt (105008) > > Patipatti means any moment of direct awareness of a dhamma. If there occur naturally moments of awareness of, for example, currently arising visible object as just visible object (as distinct from seeing consciousness), this would be patipadaa. > > > pt: Isn't this already an arising of a stage of insight (at least the nama-rupa stage)? > =============== I didn't mean to imply awareness of a single moment of a dhamma (which I think is what you have in mind in asking your question). That would certainly be a very well-advanced level of insight development, I'm sure, as would awareness of any of the 3 characteristics. At the more beginning level, there can be awareness of, for example, visible object as mere visible object, distinct from seeing consciousness, but that would not be at the level of individual moments of same. Jon #105046 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 4:58 am Subject: Questions to Acharn szmicio Dear Nina, Sarah Here is a few of my questions. Best wishes Lukas === Dear Acharn 1) What is characteristic of ruupa? 2) What is mana? Is this different from a pride we usually think of? 3) Please could you explain metta object from Visudhimagga? This object is especially hard to me. There was said I have to sit and try to have less anger. And the only thing I can get is some useless thinking about metta. This is in my case not true metta. I know that this object is perfect but I cannot get it. But instead of that I found another way to develop metta. This is very natural. I dont even have to think of metta, it appears very naturaly. This way is to undersand. Understand nama and ruupa and learn this in life gradually. To lead my normal life. This is the great condition for metta. very natural. But I coould not practise according to metta object.? 4) Metta is when we really forget everything. It's not like still thinking of people. Some people thinks they need to think of people to get metta, but this isnt true. 5) What is an object of metta? Is it a concept only? or can it be nama or ruupa? 6) What if I am forgetfull and lost in concepts. There is no understanding and this condition more concepts. I am sometimes worried about this. I feel like lost in concepts. 7) This is an old issue. I was asking you this question in a first set of my questions to you. In Vibhanga there is mentioned ruupa that is internal and external. And that should be the ruupa of another people, is't it? This is only internal ruupa. When panna arises there can be understanding of another people ruupas. For example when they smile, there is a cittajaruupa. And we can understand this ruupa of them insted fo being involved in concepts of that they are smiling? Isnt it? This is the only sati. 8) Sati is different than pleasant feeling or concentration? 9) Could you tell more on present moment? 10) We discussed this with Nina on dsg, sacca kicca and kata ~nana. sacca ~nana is intelectual understanding that is accomapnied by pa~n~na of intelectual level or is this understaning now? #105047 From: Lukas Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 5:19 am Subject: Questions to Acharn szmicio Dear Nina, Sarah There is a typo in number 7. I meant external ruupa, not internal. I can also add another qst that is in relation. 11) When on retreat or seclusion people try to concentrate. Their faces are different, we can think: wow this guy is amazing, he looks so calm. But another guy with sati and panna when look at the concentrated guy, dont know concpets. He can directly know the ruupa of this quy, that is conditioned by the citta that concentrates. This ruupa can be know by him that this is made by akusala or kusala citta. He is not involved in concepts but he clearly sees the ruupa that is external, is a ruupa of other person. Isnt it? This is still knowladge very close to savaka knowladges. This is not attribute of Buddha. But this is far. Not easy to grasp. Is this what Buddha meant by external ruupa? You can say this is thinking. But ist it wise consideration, even on intelectual level? Because the Path is very gradual. >7) This is an old issue. I was asking you this question in a first set of >my questions to you. In Vibhanga there is mentioned ruupa that is internal >and external. And that should be the ruupa of another people, is't it? >This is only internal ruupa. When panna arises there can be understanding >of another people ruupas. For example when they smile, there is a >cittajaruupa. And we can understand this ruupa of them insted fo being >involved in concepts of that they are smiling? Isnt it? This is the only sati. #105048 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 6:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ptaus1 Hi Mike, > M: I would also add that there is sometimes inappropriate over-interpretation of the ultimate when it would be more useful to use conventional terms. I gave an comparison some time ago of using the quantum theory of light (i.e. photons) to discuss simple observations that can be better analysed using conventional classical optics. If one tried to use the full quantum theory of light to analyse such simple things as lenses and mirrors, one would soon conclude that designing a telescope was much too difficult... pt: Thanks for explaining. I hope others here will address the issues you raise. Since I'm a relative newcomer, I can only give you a perspective from my experiences here, maybe that helps somehow. Initially, I had similar conclusions like you about (over)use of ultimate terminology, though I think that was mostly because I was used to the conventional way of presenting the dhamma, as well as just generally having little knowledge of abhidhamma and commentaries. Now, I think that using the ultimate terms is ok and even preferable, especially considering the abhidhamma focus of this forum. I mean, that's the way that core members here have discussed dhamma for decades, so it would be a bit strange for me as a newcomer to ask them to change their ways. And since they are generally posting to each other, I don't see anything wrong in their using their own preferred terminology, kind of like Goenka students have their own terminology, Buddhadasa's have their own, etc. Further, I'd say that members here believe that presenting the dhamma in ultimate terms is more helpful to newcomers than presenting it in conventional terms, so I try to accept their help as it is, though on many occasions that means I have to dig through useful posts for a while to understand the issue. > M: In my opinion the argument I see here (and this is an answer to PT's question) use on a very particular application of the paramattha dhamma concept to reject any other points of view. > Sure there are only paramattha dhammas. However, there is a body-mind that on a conventional level processes information and learns skills (such as reading Dhamma and discussing it on the Internet). Despite various attempts, I've yet to see a convincing argument (I've seen some attempts) why the approach you advocate is any less "things to do" than the instructions of other teachers. pt: As I understand it so far, what's being warned against here is conflating activities (things to do or not do) with a/kusala cittas and cetasikas. Like when saying that making effort is the right thing to do on the path. This is just not precise enough and can therefore lead to trouble because effort can be both kusala and akusala. Most importantly, it is not the following of a particular outward activity/procedure (like sitting in meditation or reading suttas) that determines whether the effort is kusala or akusala, but it is only panna that can determine this. So, ultimately, the path is not about doing or not doing things, but about understanding. Granted, it is possible, or actually most likely, that most other teachers also warn against this same problem by using conventional language, like "don't force meditation, let go of expecting results, understand the hindrances instead of resisting them, etc". However, I have to admit that in four years of having contact with buddhism (mostly online), none of it really came through as clearly as when I first considered it in ultimate terminology. I.e. here is the first time where all that a/kusala business, as distinct from thinking in terms of things to do or not do, started making sense. And though initially KenH's posts for example seemed confrontational, they kind of worked for me in the long run, though I understand that not everyone would have the patience to bear with it. So, does this mean that most of other teachers who are using conventional language don't really know anything about anatta? I doubt that. I think that's just how it appears due to circumstances. I mean, buddhism is still a fairly new thing in the west, so most of the stuff that's available online and in public kind of caters to beginners, so using ultimate terms therefore is mostly out of the question because everyone has the ingrained approach of "give me something to do". Maybe if one gets to know these teachers well, they'll be much more explicit about anatta as they know you're not a complete beginner anymore, but I haven't yet had the chance to get to know a monk/teacher really well, so can't really tell. Best wishes pt #105049 From: Ken O Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 6:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 16. ashkenn2k Dear Dieter > >D: sorry , I did not take it serious, Ken ... what context ? The wording is ' if anybody would develop >these four frames ' > KO:? context in the meaning of who is the sutta being preach to, what is the intended message when Buddha said that.? This is important as?some suttas are suitable for layman while others are for those who has become monks.? Some suttas focus on D.O., while others on six senses, elements.??? >D: we are speaking of the instructions concerning the establishment of Right Mindfulness /Sati and its possible fruit even in half a month.. >We know how diffficult that is to stay focused , be aware of what is happening here and now within the framework of body, feeling, mind state and mind objects for hours , not to talk about days ....but as the Buddha stated : it is not impossible. > >It may have taken aeons that a Buddha appeared in this world .. but now as the teacher passed away as well as his chief disciples , the teacher lives (still) by his teaching , the Buddha Dhamma Vinaya. It is up to us to seek advise from a monk or a nun who lives according to the doctrine and discipline (vinaya) who could be like one of his chief disciples ...or - even better - to decide to seek permission to join the Order. > >Otherwise we are on our own with a base knowledge of Dhamma and certain level of right understanding how to approach the path leading >to cessation of suffering. And that understanding is certainly enough for the gross or some finer details for one's training. >Ken , you speak of hasten .. but what is there to hasten in a declared Middle Way between ascesis and indulgence ? >You mean jumping in negligence of the gradual development of penetration and understanding? KO:??? As the teacher, the Buddha speaks about right view as the start.?? Negligence only happens when?right view?does not arise.? We do not restrain, guard and protect our mind, that is negligence.? And guarding, protecting and restrain only happen when there arisen of panna.? Sati is only samma with panna.? Without panna, sati is only kusala, kusala only conditon kusala kamma and not totally stop rebirth.? The practise is about panna and panna is not self.? One cannot force panna to arise, it arise because of one consider dhamma. > >D: when that goes along with the energy and decisiveness to reach for the un-reached ..fine , I remember some essays about chanda .. >but in fact such effort is not necessarily connected with lust .. KO:? Chanda could be aksuala.? When we cling to a an idea of a self that could develop the path, or "i" could develop a path, that is miccha ditthi, that is aksuala.? There is no arisen of panna with the arisen of aksuala.? What one do is only condition unarisen aksuala to arise, aksuala that arise growth in strength. >D: but what does that mean in respect to our practise , not being lip service? >Does that not mean to train oneself as much as possible to do that within the framework of the satipatthana? >And the more we able to do it in the here and now , the time for the fruit is becoming shorter. That is a comfort for the effort and training in concentration , not necessarily ogling at success. KO:? Do you need any special effort to see, hear, taste?? There is no self in such senses processes.? Satipatthana is being aware of dhamma when it arise, understand it as not self.? Practise is the understanding of this characteritistic when one see, taste etc.? >Long, long time .. many lives towards liberation is not what the Buddha proclaimed for those who (understand ) suffer (ing), good to recall : > >'Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Now, then, monks, I exhort you: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about completion by being heedful." Those were the Tathagata's last words.' DN 16 KO:? When panna arise, one is heedful.? because panna could guard, restraint and protect. With metta Ken O #105050 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 6:44 am Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ptaus1 Hi Jon, Thanks for your reply. > J: I didn't mean to imply awareness of a single moment of a dhamma (which I think is what you have in mind in asking your question). pt: I more meant it in terms of being aware of an individual dhamma, i.e. knowing how it "tastes like" and so knowing that it's dosa that I'm currently experiencing, not moha, nor any other dhamma. Though I guess being aware of an individual dhamma also implies being aware of an individual moment of dhamma, not sure. >J: At the more beginning level, there can be awareness of, for example, visible object as mere visible object, distinct from seeing consciousness, but that would not be at the level of individual moments of same. pt: I still don't really get this. If I'm able to distinguish between a visible object and visual consciousness, that would seem to imply that I can (1) distinguish between sense-door process and mind-door process (and this is already the first stage of tender insight, right?) and (2) that during the sense-door process I know what's the difference in experiencing two different dhammas (so knowing individual dhammas), i.e. I'd be aware of a visual rupa (dhamma), and in another moment I'd be aware of visual citta (also a dhamma). This still sounds very direct to me, and on par with actual insight. Basically, at the moment, I see pariyatti as conceptual understanding of realities. I.e. if I'm angry, I conceptually understand that there's dosa involved in what's happening, and even might understand it conceptually as anatta, but that doesn't mean that I can directly be aware of dosa (or anatta of it) as it arises in one moment and then mild lobha in the next moment, and then again more dosa, etc. It's just one big conceptual experience understood conceptually as akusala because I know that anger has to do with dosa, but I can't know arising dosa directly as individual dhamma appearing in a sequence of dhammas. With pativeda, I understand I'd be actually able to see these dhammas individually as they arise and fall, i.e. this is insight proper. But I'm just not sure what's the range of patipati - does it kind of represent just a line between pariyati and pativeda, where the former bleeds into the latter, or does patipati actually occupy a certain space between the two so to speak, so there's a level of panna that's neither conceptual understanding of kusala/akusala, nor is it direct insight, but something in between? Thanks. Best wishes pt #105051 From: "ashkenn2k" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 6:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhaniya Sutta (5) ashkenn2k Dear Han Burden is because of clinging, because of causing endless cycle of rebirth. Burden is because of pain because khandhas are dukkha. Burden because of misconception there is self when there is none at all. Burden are just characteristics of dhammas as khandhas are also dhammas. That is the meaning of Burden in the sutta. Understand the meaning of dhamma and not the words of the dhamma. Then one will know it is just dhammas and not Han or Ken O. With metta Ken O > -------------------- > > Extract from SN 22.22 Bhaara Sutta: The Burden, translated by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. > At Saavatthi: There the Blessed One said this. > "Bhikkhus, I will teach you the burden, the carrier of the burden, the taking up of the burden, and the laying down of the burden. Listen to that: > > "And what, bhikkhus is the burden? It should be said: the five aggregates subject to clinging. What five? The form aggregate subject to clinging, the feeling aggregate subject to clinging, the perception aggregate subject to clinging, the volitional formations aggregate subject to clinging, the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging. This is called the burden. > > -------------------- > #105052 From: Ken O Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 7:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear pt ? >An easy example that I think you've encountered many times is when saying "there is no person" in order to point to the conceptual understanding of anatta - it usually becomes misinterpreted as the extreme view of anihiltaionism. Or similarly, when said that there cannot be purposeful bhavana (or effort) because it contradicts anatta - it's misinterpreted as saying that there is no bhavana (or effort) happening whatsoever. > >So, I keep wondering how can this very subtle, but immensely important difference be presented in a way that would not make people jump to extreme conclusions of anihilationism, no bhavana, no development, no effort, etc. I mean all these are just wrong interpretations of what you are saying, or what K.Sujin is saying for that matter, and yet I constantly see people jumping to these wrong conclusions on this and other forums. And of course, the argument always turns into the extreme polarisation of eternalism vs anihilationsm (e.g. either I make effort, or I make no effort, while the elusive non-purposeful kusala effort remains beyond comprehension) . KO:? The correct dhamma term is miccha ditthi.? It is due to micchi ditthi one thinks there is a self.? Whether it is AS or other teacher, it is just dhammas and not persons,? Only when we talk?in terms of?dhammas, then we will be able to?help others to understand.? When we talk too much about no?persons and about no control, people will be confused and start being defensive?because they are attached to the words and not the meaning of the dhamma.?? I find your email reply to Alex on lobha was quite good and better than?I could explain it.? I feel that you are to?understand what we meant by anatta.? Are you able to understand when?we use the word no control, are you able to understand there is no self that is developing.?? ?Pse?advise? ? With metta Ken O #105053 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 9:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) moellerdieter Hi Jon, you wrote: We need to bear in mind the context. Here, the nature of the 'mind' is being contrasted with the nature of the body, in terms of apparent rate of change. D: vs : the simile is mentioned in the passage describing the uninstructed mind and followed by 'The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there that .... ' that isn 't the state of the carelessly jumping monkey mind .. J: What is being highlighted by the simile, as I see it, is that with the mind there is a moment of seeing followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, then a moment of hearing followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, then a moment of bodily contact followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, then a moment of seeing again followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, and so on. This incessant change of the object of consciousness applies as much to the instructed noble disciple as it does to the uninstructed worldling, independent of the level of accumulated defilements (or lack of same) of the mind. In other words, the monkey simile is being used to describe what is common to the mind of all classes of beings. Sure there are differences between the mind of the uninstructed worldling and that of the instructed noble disciple, but that it is not those differences that are being addressed by the simile. D: Jon , I am as stubborn as you with this .. ;-) .. because of its importance of working with one's mind in the moment: the crucial issue here is concentration .... to remain focused on ... for example when you are interested in something .. let's say you are listening to Khun Sujin , your attention is focused on seeing and hearing her and your mind doesn't jump like a monkey anymore to these or those other sense impressions .. they are in the background , more or less absorbed. ( more as in the Jhanas by one-pointedness , less in the contemplation of Satipatthana or D.O.) The point of training is that you exercise and not wait for the opportunity to arise.. the 4 right efforts -caring for the wholesome - are a start out of the daily monkey business I However I suppose you let the monkey - mind run its pace and try to analyse/to determine each branch in Abhidhammic terms ..? But then where is the (8fold Noble ) Path ? with Metta Dieter #105054 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 10:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) scottduncan2 Dear Dieter (and Jon), Regarding: D: "Jon , I am as stubborn as you with this...However I suppose you let the monkey - mind run its pace and try to analyse/to determine each branch in Abhidhammic terms ..? But then where is the (8fold Noble ) Path ?" Scott: While you certainly have your own opinions, Dieter, they differ from those of the Commentators (for what that is worth): Note 157: "Spk: By day and by night (rattiyaa ca divasassa ca): This is a genitive in the locative sense, i.e. during the night and during the day. Arises as one thing and ceases as another (a~n~nadeva uppajjati, a~n~na.m nirujjhati): The meaning is that (the mind) that arises and ceases during the day is other than (the mind) that arises and ceases during the night. The statement should not be taken to mean that one thing arises and something altogether different, which had not arisen, ceases. 'Day and night' is said by way of continuity, taking a continuity of lesser duration that the previous one (i.e., the one stated for the body). But one citta is not able to endure for a whole day or a whole night. Even in the time of a fingersnap man hundred thousand of ko.tis of cittas arise and cease (1 ko.ti=10 million). The simile of the monkey should be understood thus: The 'grove of objects' is like the forest grove. The mind arising in the grove of objects is like the monkey wandering in the forest grove. The mind's taking hold of an object is like the monkey grabbing hold of a branch. Just as the monkey, roaming through the forest, leaves behind one branch and grabs hold of another, so the mind, roaming through the grove of objects, arises sometimes grasping hold of a visible object, sometimes a sound, sometimes the past, sometimes the present or the future, sometimes an internal object, sometimes an external object. When the monkey does not find a (new) branch but does not descend and sit on the ground but sits holding a single leafy branch. So too, when the mind is roaming through the grove of objects, it cannot be said that it arises without holding to an object; rather, it arises holding to an object of a single kind." Scott: Have it your way though ;-) ... Sincerely, Scott. #105055 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) moellerdieter Hi Scott, you wrote: 'While you certainly have your own opinions, Dieter, they differ from those of the Commentators (for what that is worth):.. ' D: commentaries may offer some valueable hints when in doubt ...but as well may confuse when used before one's own contemplation. I stumbled recently upon a lecture of a respected monk who stated: 'There is a popular belief that the commentaries are finally trace?able to a miscellany of the Bud?dha word scattered here and there, as paki??akadesan?. But the true state of affairs seems to be rather dif?ferent. Very often the commentaries are unable to say something con?clusive regarding the meaning of deep suttas. So they simply give some possible interpretations and the reader finds himself at a loss to choose the correct one. Sometimes the commentaries go at a tangent and miss the correct interpreta?tion. Why the commentaries are silent on some deep suttas is also a problem to modern day scholars. There are some histori?cal reasons leading to this state of affairs in the com?mentaries. ' The commentary you quoted does not consider the very crucial point of concentration /samadhi which is the core of mental training ( the samadhi sequence of the Path training).. and it is just that what makes the diffrence between the monkey- mind of the commoner and the instructed disciple of the noble ones .. with Metta Dieter #105056 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 11:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) scottduncan2 Dear Dieter, Regarding: D: "commentaries may offer some valueable hints when in doubt ...but as well may confuse when used before one's own contemplation....The commentary you quoted does not consider the very crucial point of concentration /samadhi which is the core of mental training ( the samadhi sequence of the Path training).. and it is just that what makes the diffrence between the monkey- mind of the commoner and the instructed disciple of the noble ones .." Scott: This 'crucial point' is not considered because it is not relevant. It is your own 'crucial point,' which is fine. As a merely rhetorical question, why should I accept your opinion over that of the Commentaries? I'll let Jon continue, as he has much more patience than I (although he and I might be equally as stubborn on this point.) ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #105057 From: Vince Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 2:50 pm Subject: Re: terms and realities and kamma cerovzt@... Dear Ken, Nina, Howard and all, you wrote: >>V: What is the condition of ignorance?. > KO: Kamma is two fold, as a result and as a cause > a. As a result is in the formations (after ignorance of D.O.), > our sense sphere cittas are all kamma results > b. As a cause which is seen in the becoming of D.O. , the cause of next life > To make it easier to understand, seeing citta is a kamma result, > without seeing citta one is unable to see. But after seeing citta, > during the sense process, there could be lobha which arise with the > object of the seeing (i.e. visible objects). This lobha which > condition becoming. This is the conditonality. What condition > ignorance - the taints or latency. I think this explanation is very right. When there is seeing of citta, we know it is a result, a kamma. What knows?. And sure the answer it would be: "citta knows". I agree. What I miss is an explanation of the root condition of the arising itself; of the arising of the knowledge of seeing which see citta. In example, you says it happens as a kamma result but it doesn't explain what is it. We read in the "Conditions" text of Nina: "Root-condition (hetu-paccaya): The first condition mentioned in the “Paììhåna” is root-condition, hetu-paccaya. There are three akusala hetus: lobha, attachment, dosa, aversion, and moha, ignorance, and these can have many degrees" http://www.zolag.co.uk/conditions.txt And we agree, I think. But also we read in the D.O. how the root-condition still is not composed of three akusala hetus. What we find as the root-condition is the ignorance of the co-dependent arising of both consiousness and nama&rupa: "'This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising," http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html Please, understand that I'm not trying to deny what you says and of course not Abhidhamma!!. I agree very much with Abhidhamma explanations because it is a deep teaching, and of course beyond my reach. Abhidhamma serves to manage becoming completely and it is the more important thing and also I try to learn with Abhidhamma. However, what I miss is a clear conciliation with what D.O. shows. For sure the conciliation exists, and probably it appears in the practice of every person. And as we are not are arhants, then the discussion is good. > K.O.: Yes conditonality is a key characteristics. We should > understand it as the characteristics of the dhamma in the arisen of > the six senses as in D.O and not as conditionality itself. Because > ignorance is the key, conditionality is the characteristics of > dhamma in this samasara. Panna is also condition, so we should > focus on the cause or the key which is ignorance and not the conditionality. yes, ignorance is conditionality because all dhammas arise by conditionality, except nibbana. But if we talk about root cause, it would be the ignorance of the condition for the arising of all dhammas, not only this or that. The root must be the core of this becoming, of the whole mechanics. So while we ignore the root cause we ignore a way to get a cease of dukkha. Conditionality cannot be in dhammas but in what is conceiving that there is a conditionality among them. When there is knowledge of dhammas (be conceptual or real) also we know there is a needed conditionality among them. Such conditionality is conventional, because we know nibbana is unconditioned. If conditionality was a characteristic of dhammas themselves (as color, odor, solidity...) then nibbana and the eradication of ignorance would not be possible, because we are only a process of dhammas. We can observe citta as another dhamma, and seeing conditionality as something which belongs to this dhamma in that moment when citta knows. And I understand it can be very right. However, there is a practical problem with that: what is observing citta as another dhamma, this is what really is keeping the conditionality-root, and for that reason we assign conditionality to citta. We can say it arises by kamma. But kamma is not a dhamma but just conditionality, and then we make a circle without end. >>> KO: the outer and inner is not important. Also it does not >>> matter where it arise and where it goes, as they are not helping in >>> our direct understanding of the reality. It is the unwholesome >>> mental factors or cetasikas like lobha or lust that is the >>> importance, that we should understand as it arise or understand the >>> reality of these cetasikas. Using the sutta you quote, >>> “Not so, friend Koììhika. The eye is not the bond of objects, nor are >>> objects the bond of the eye, but that desire and lust that arise owing >>> to these two. That is the bond. I point also to the arising of lust or any other dhamma. Even if we understand the arising of lust regarding other dhammas, it doesn't mean the realization of what is arising in itself: no only of lust but of any other conceivable. And then, How to get a cease? Condition for seeing is the seen. Here we say "citta knows". However, this conditionality is not in citta, in the seeing or in the seen. Because seeing is just seeing. The seen is just the seen. Citta is just citta: she just know the seeing and the seen. At this point all is perfect and without any error; it is freedom and nibbana. But then, Why the immediate understanding of all that don't cause awakening?. Here we can say also "by kamma", "by latent tendencies"... etc. Of course that's truth but also it only means that there is ignorance of the root of the arising in itself, which is where I try to point. >>V: But the point is: What is the bond?. > KO: Ignorance which is the cause of our present birth and lobha > which cause our next birth, that is the bond. yes, but Ignorance of what?. It is not only the ignorance of this or that dhamma. Ignorance refers not only of arising of dhammas but also of the arising in itself. For that reason, in that Sutta we read the repetition "Origination, origination": "Origination, origination.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html "Origination, origination". it's not about the arising or this or that dhamma but about the arising itself. According the Sutta, it happens when: "This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther" What means "consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther"?. The Sutta shows it means awareness of the co-arising: "from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form" >>>K.O: Rather the bond is the result of the coming together of the >>> eye and objects with the arisen of lust. >> >>V:but if we put in a table one eye in front some object, there is not >>lust, there is not bond. >>What it's so?. > KO: In the sense process, there are only three javanas. Kusala, > akusala or kiriya. If at that moment there is no panna arise to > understand the characteristics that appear in our mind, (for this > instance thinking as table is a concept), then it is lobha unless > one is a Arahant. We could not see lobha at work because lobha > could arise with indifference and this make it extremely difficult > to be aware of. However when panna is keener and keener, one will > be able to detect it. but according this, it would mean that javanas, panna, lobha or citta, they can arise in the table just because there is an eye in front an object. Why not?. What's lacking? Seeing is not the eye. Eye and object arises together with consciousness. This co-arising and this origination. it is the bond. In this way we are born at every instant. And also for that reason the eye is mentioned as another kamma in the Suttas. Eye is rupa and it arises in this same moment. And it should be known as kamma!! In this moment arises conciousness and nama&rupa, and from here the rest of dhammas. I understand that in practical terms, when one is practicing avoiding -self and regarding the seeing and the seen ("citta knows"), also one should be aware that all these dhammas arise in that same moment. At least I understand in that way. We are born at every moment. So at least I understand "the long way" is referred to the total cease of ignorance and to become an arhant. It is not directly referred to the realization of the root cause of dukkha, to realize nibbana. It is referred to the understanding and managing of the becoming in complete way. I understand this is the only sense of the "long way", and in fact it is the source of difference betwen sotapanna, anagami and arhant. Because there is only one nibbana, not many. Difference is in the eradication of ignorance, which can be progressively eradicated by managing and understanding the becoming. Well, at least I understand this is the real goal of Abhidhamma, and also for this reason must be so rich, complex and difficult. sorry for the longitude! best wishes, Vince. #105058 From: "colette" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 12:15 pm Subject: Spontaniety, you say? ksheri3 [Dieter, Jon....] > > We need to bear in mind the context. Here, the nature of the 'mind' is being contrasted with the nature of the body, in terms of apparent rate of change. > colette: okay, jon's only speaking of a dependence upon TIME to manifest this alleged "rate of change". > > D: vs : the simile is mentioned in the passage describing the uninstructed mind and followed by colette:"slow down driver I wanna stay alive I wanna make this journey last" Paul McCartney. Fine Dieter, you now take jon's concept of a TIME aspect/delay and put it in terms of EXISTANT REALITY being this alleged supiority of this hypothetical "instructed mind" over and above this REAL uninstructed mind. Thus we have your position basing itself upon INSTRUCTION as being the definer, the definitative aspect that JUDGES the efficacy of a mind. Does that have anything to do with the concept of EDUCATION? <...> ****** 'The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there that .... ' colette: I understand that the quote, above, is from the Buddha himself and the rest, below, is your interpretation or your bias or your predjudice, NO? that isn 't the state of the carelessly jumping monkey mind .. > > colette: in order to maintain continuity I have duplicated the same paragraph so that we can move on and not fester over this problem, above. ------------------------ > D: vs : the simile is mentioned in the passage describing the uninstructed mind and followed by 'The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there that .... ' that isn 't the state of the carelessly jumping monkey mind .. ---------------- colette: who me, not have a say about this. Sorry jon but you left yourself open here. See below: > J: What is being highlighted by the simile, as I see it, is that with the mind there is a moment of seeing followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, then a moment colette: HOLD IT RIGHT THERE! ARe you suggesting that thinking does not occur until a body consciousness has been raised? ARe you sugggesting that there's a pre-determined path where 1st, the mind consciousness cognizes,2nd the eye consciousness recognizes, 3rd the ear consciousness recognizes, etc? Isn't that nothing more than programming a robot? Please do basic DOS and view PATH which tells your microprocessor how to function/think. But lets move on. ---------------- of hearing followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, then a moment of bodily contact followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, then a moment of seeing again followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, and so on. colette: PARDON ME, group, but how is it possible for Jon to reach these astronomical conclusions of an alleged ORDER when it's clear that the process is CHAOTIC? ACK-TUNG, pardon my mispelling of the german language nina, jon, you sound like nothing less than the first emporer of China when he was gladly going into PARANOIA. In this case, the paranoia results from a LACK OF CONTROL. Jon, if this is just a glitch in the problems we all face w/ the use of words then I appologize for portraying you this way,eventhough this is a standard thought process and behavior, but if this is the actual planting of the seed of paranoia within your mind THEN you should heed my words about the driver driving too fast since this "ghetto freeway" is very fast. Eventhough I don't know your actual intentions, I'm gonna procede upon the concept that PARANIOA has been planted and is growing THEREFORE YOU ARE CLINGING TO YOUR PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS, DELUSIONS. > > This incessant change of the object of consciousness applies as much to the instructed noble disciple as it does to the uninstructed worldling, independent of the level of accumulated defilements (or lack of same) of the mind. > colette: okay, I can go w/ that: the changes occur in the mind and the "object" is never, ever, constant, that it's nature changes continually through the MIND'S mischevialan characteristics. -------------------- > In other words, the monkey simile is being used to describe what is common to the mind of all classes of beings. Sure there are differences between the mind of the uninstructed worldling and that of the instructed noble disciple, but that it is not those differences that are being addressed by the simile. > colette: BOULDERDASH! IT IS THOSE EXACT DIFFERENCES between the mind of the uninstructed and the hallucinations of the samuri class, oops, I mean the Petty Bourgeoisie, or is it the Bourgeoisie or maybe the ARistocracy, nevertheless, the problem exists long before the "OBJECT" of contention exists, THE PROBLEM ALREADY EXISTS IN THE FACT OF A CASTE STRUCTURE, A STRATIFIED STRUCTURE, A STATE OF BEING. ------------------ colette: okay, Dieter changes the subject real fast, bet ya didn't notice how Dieter "palmed" those cards. > D: Jon , I am as stubborn as you with this .. ;-) .. because of its importance of working with one's mind in the moment: the crucial issue here is concentration .... to remain focused on ... colette: NOPE NOPE NOPE, ENOUGH SAID. You struck upon the crux of the issue, the folcrum of the issue: focus or concentration aka SINGLEMINDEDNESS. <...> -------------------------------- GOTTA GO BUT I THANK YOU BOTH FOR THIS THOUGHT AND CHANCE TO TAKE PART IN THIS DISCUSSION. toodles, colette > The point of training is that you exercise and not wait for the opportunity to arise.. the 4 right efforts -caring for the wholesome - are a start out of the daily monkey business > > I > However I suppose you let the monkey - mind run its pace and try to analyse/to determine each branch in Abhidhammic terms ..? > But then where is the (8fold Noble ) Path ? > > with Metta Dieter #105059 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 4:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Ken H > > I just felt that your approach should be more tone down and not generalising like > > <> We cannot be sure of this because A Sujin teacher could have other students even though may not be as prominent as her. ----------- Hi Ken O, I couldn't see the point you were making about A Sujin and her students, but never mind, let's continue with the subject of toning down my approach: ---------------- KO: > > Also when we discuss we should focus on helping and not turning discussions into long argument which is not helpful or beneficial to other people. ---------------- I think everyone here (including me) is focussed on helping. We just have different ideas of what is helpful and what is not. Some discussions do turn into long arguments, and I suppose sometimes we need to know when to stop. Howard suggested as much in his latest post to me. But, in the meantime, we are not doing any harm are we? When you see Alex and me arguing over the same points yet again (!) you can easily scroll down to the next message. :-) -------------------------- KO: > That could be your accumulations but still we should understand this dhamma when it arise. We do not know whether at that moment of writing your statements or undiplomatic style, is it a form of a sakkaya ditthi or conceit that arise to say this or that. I also have many sakkayaditthi or conceit especially when speaking to my juniors at work. --------------------------- I don't accept that I have more (or less) self view and conceit than other DSG members. Who can know? It's just that my favourite subject - did the Buddha teach formal meditation - can be a touchy one. ------------------------------------- KO: > It is something I am aware which I still could not "get rid" of this accumulations, it takes panna to slowly eradicate. > > We should be aware, dhammas are not self so lets not change it, whether people understand it or not, it is up to them. We should not be concern about others understanding . It is up to individual. ------------------------------------- Yes, I am sure you are right, panna develops very slowly. We will probably leave this world with the same accumulations we entered it with. With luck, this time we will leave with just a little more panna. And so, to that end, let's not forget what the world really is. Right now! Ken H #105060 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 3:47 pm Subject: Saving Rescue! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Ten Mental Liberators Frees! Venerable Sariputta once explained: 1: The experience of deep disgust. 2: The experience of death approaching. 3: The experience of disliking whatever food. 4: The experience of dispassion with the entire world. 5: The experience of the inevitable impermanence. 6: The experience of frustration inherent in decay. 7: The experience of the impersonality of existence. 8: The experience of letting go and leaving all behind. 9: The experience of disinterested, & detached disillusion. 10: The experience of calming, stilling, ceasing, and ending. These 10 perceptions are real, true, exactly so and not otherwise, perfectly realized, comprehended, and formulated by the Buddha! They cool all craving, relinquish all clinging, and still all urge... They are therefore to be remembered, recited, and reflected over repeatedly.. When made arise, they release mind into Bliss and Peace! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! http://What-Buddha-Said.net Saving Rescue! #105061 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 8:00 pm Subject: to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued - Instructions of the Buddha truth_aerator Hello KenH, Mike, all >"kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Mike, > > >Basically, the difference is: some teachers are talking about >"things >to do" while other teachers are talking about understanding >the >present moment. In the present moment there is no scope for >things to >do. The concept is irrelevant. > Ken H One of the teachers was the Buddha: "Now, when a disciple of the noble ones is consummate in virtue in this way, guards the doors to his sense faculties in this way, knows moderation in eating in this way, is devoted to wakefulness in this way, is endowed with seven qualities in this way, and obtains at will ? without trouble or difficulty ? the four jhanas that constitute heightened awareness and a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now in this way, then he is called a disciple of the noble ones who follows the practice for one in training, whose eggs are unspoiled, who is capable of breaking out, capable of awakening, capable of attaining the supreme rest from the yoke. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.053.than.html#t-4 "(5) He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.053.than.html Jhana requires a lot of understanding in order to occur. Even very "samatha" oriented teachers teach satipatthana. Buddha has said that Jhanas are "This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.066.than.html As to householder's pleasure: "These are the five strings of sensuality. Now, any pleasure & happiness that arises dependent on these five strings of sensuality is called sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be feared." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.066.than.html With metta, Alex #105062 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 10:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau Hi pt, ------------------ <. . .> pt: > I keep wondering how anatta can be explained in the best way, so I hope this discussion can help, though I realise it's a bit more of a meta-discussion than dhamma-discussion. ------------------ If we understand the Dhamma metta will take care of itself. :-) ------------------------- pt: > Anyway, here's first the statement of the problem (as I see it) in explaining anatta, and then we can discuss the possible ways of solving the problem. When it comes to the core of your message that: "Most Buddhists are strongly attached to the idea of becoming a better person. They don't want to know there is no person." I agree in theory here, and my thinking is that what you say above will become clear to a person only with second tender insight knowledge, when there's direct realisation of conditionality, and hence, it becomes terribly obvious that there is no person, no activity (like meditating or reading), but only dhammas conditioning one another. Before this, however, the only possible way of understanding anatta would have to be conceptual. ------------------------------------ There's nothing wrong with right conceptual understanding. (But I think I know what you are saying.) :-) ------------------------------------- Pt: > So the problem then in explaining and understanding anatta between two people who have not yet come to the second insight stage is that all explanations and comprehension will inevitably have to be based on conceptual views. And when it comes to conceptual views, the problem is that they mostly operate in opposites/extremes. That's the core problem I think. Or in other words, it's the difficulty of understanding things according to the middle way that's free from both extremes. -------------------------------------- That does seem to be the core of the problem, although I can't see why it should be. Why can't people be told from the outset about the middle way? Forget the extremes, just learn about conditioned dhammas. From my experience, I would say that almost no Buddhist teachers were telling their students about namas and rupas. Before I joined DSG I had just a cursory knowledge of Abhidhamma; I didn't think it was important. In fact, the Abhidhamma is the middle way. Until you know it you can't even begin to understand the suttas. --------------------------------- <. . .> pt: > So, I keep wondering how can this very subtle, but immensely important difference be presented in a way that would not make people jump to extreme conclusions of anihilationism, no bhavana, no development, no effort, etc. I mean all these are just wrong interpretations of what you are saying, or what K.Sujin is saying for that matter, and yet I constantly see people jumping to these wrong conclusions on this and other forums. And of course, the argument always turns into the extreme polarisation of eternalism vs anihilationsm (e.g. either I make effort, or I make no effort, while the elusive non-purposeful kusala effort remains beyond comprehension). ---------------------------------- I suggest we keep going the way we are - studying the only version of the Dhamma that is found consistently throughout the entire Pali canon, including the Abhidhamma Pitaka and ancient commentaries. If there was another way, the Buddha would have taught it. Ken H #105063 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 10:28 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary sarahprocter... Dear Dieter & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > D: I remember something like Nibbana in Dhamma or vice versa ..need to find it again , but that could be controversial so better start with another issue .. ... S: Rest assured, any issue here is bound to be controversial:-)) Sometimes when we discuss controversial issues, however, we forget how precious it is that we can even discuss such issues together. For example, we had a very sociable long weekend in Canberra with the large wedding party of Jon's nephew and his new wife. It was all very civilised and everyone was very kind and appreciative of the fact that we'd made the trip. Lots of delightful people. Jon's nephew and wife are both medical specialists and so is Jon's brother, the wife's parents are both scientists. So, many friends of both generations represented the cream of so-called Australian "intelligence". And yet, in spite of lots and lots of chats, I didn't have any dhamma discussion, controversial or otherwise. The closest I got was with our nephew himself briefly at the end. He referred in passing to the influence Jon and I had had on him in Hong Kong once on a quick stay with us and mentioned he was "still searching", but there was no opportunity to pursue the topic however. Chit-chat? Discussing what others would like to discuss, being at functions, including a long formal dinner with 6 speeches, which one would generally prefer to avoid (in my case), giving joy to others - many opportunities for kusala of all kinds. We have a couple of days relaxing, swimming and sight-seeing on the New South Wales coast south of Sydney and then fly back to Hong Kong on Thursday. Lots of different worldly conditions wherever we are, but the only thing that matters at all (as I see it), is the understanding of the present reality appearing now. The wedding party in the rose garden, the party and dinner at the old Parliament House is just a dream of the past. Even the swim this morning, the thoughts of a moment ago - all dreams not worth clinging to. Likewise our plans for this evening, the sights and sounds and tastes we'd like to experience next - all just hankerings that lead us away from the present moment, the understanding of visible object or sound appearing now. The development of understanding now is the only kind of "intelligence" that is of any value in an ultimate sense, the only kind that will help bring release from the bonds of samsara. Just reflecting out loud, here! I'll appreciate any of your reflections too, Dieter or anyone else. Metta Sarah ========= #105064 From: "Mike" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 10:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary mikenz66 Hi KenH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > KH: From my experience, I would say that almost no Buddhist teachers were telling their students about namas and rupas. Before I joined DSG I had just a cursory knowledge of Abhidhamma; I didn't think it was important. Mike: Sorry to prolong the met[t]a discussion, but that's interesting. It's almost the opposite of my experience. My teachers have always emphasised khandhas, sense doors, anatta, etc. When I did start reading a little about Abhidhamma I realised that I'd already been exposed to most of the concepts. Mike: I recall one time when my teacher was talking to a mixed group, some of whom had only come to the Wat a couple of times. He basically ran through a gentle version of the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, without using any of the technical terms ("Do you think that your body permenant? Does it makes sense to identify it as 'you'? etc...") One of the women (who, it turned out, was a committed Christian) looked rather puzzled and shyly asked "But where can you find the soul?" I was impressed how he managed to raise that query in her by a bit of question-and-answer, whereas if he'd come straight out with: "According to Buddhism there is no self/soul/thingie" it would have just closed her off immediately. Metta Mike #105065 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 11:00 pm Subject: The theft sarahprocter... Dear pt & all, You kindly wrote (off-list): --- On Thu, 4/2/10, Pt Gr wrote: > Sorry to hear about the robbery, though look forward to > hearing about it - really appreciated your previous stories > about robberies :) .... S: I should have referred to it as a theft only :) I was reflecting on the story recently discussed (#104327) about MahaKassapa and the bhikkhu who had a grudge and broke the pots and pans and set fire to the monastery: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/dmpada2d.htm #Resident V (2) The Story of a Resident Pupil of Thera Mahakassapa The Buddha had said that "it would have been much better for Thera Mahakassapa to live alone than to live with a foolish companion. Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 61: If a person seeking a companion cannot find one who is better than or equal to him, let him resolutely go on alone; there can be no companionship with a fool." We like to think we're good judges of people, but if even Mahakassapa hadn't seen the trouble coming, how can we think we understand others' tendencies when we don't even know our own most the time? I had carefully interviewed our temporary part-time helper from the Phillipines and liked her very much. We seemed to get on well. I knew she desperately needed money for her family, so had given her more hours, over-paid a little and put up with her slowness and general ineptitude and lack of truthfulness for much longer than I might have otherwise. When we began to discover itmes had gone missing, beginning with my mother's purse, I sat down quietly to discuss it with her. However, she just denied everything as I had suspected whe would, because it was a pattern. I had to dismiss her, we had to change the locks and then we found Jonothan's wallet with Australian cash and bank card missing, some of my clothes and we don't know yet what else. Jonothan also tried quietly talking to her on the phone just before we left, requesting the bank card's return (no use to anyone else), but again, just more denials. It's really rather a pitiful story. She's like a child that won't admit to having done anything wrong. So we didn't have any meaningful or helpful chat and it's just been a good test of equanimity, metta and compassion for us.. We're so fortunate to have heard about the Dhamma, to have strong confidence in good sila. Without such sila, life is truly wretched - always living in deceit of one kind or other, with such terrible repercussions down the road. I've rather dreaded what else I may discover on return, but as we've been discussing with Nina, when there are no thoughts about oneself and one's own problems, there is no loss, no problem. Any thoughts of your own? Metta Sarah ======== #105066 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 11:53 pm Subject: Re: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (318, 18) sarahprocter... Dear Scott,Connie & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nichicon cp wrote: > > > Dear Friends, > Following on from #104836 Fives (318, 17) (cy: #104849), > > CSCD > < > Walshe > DN 33.2.1(18) 'Five kinds of Non-Returner (anaagaamii): *1094 the "less-than-half-timer", the "more-than-half-timer", the "gainer without exertion", "he who goes upstream to the highest". .... S: Somehow the "gainer with exertion" got missed out in the translation here. .... > > Olds > [ 5.18 ] Five Non-Returners:[ 5.18 ] > Midway-All-round-unbound, reduced-all-round-unbound, no-confounding-all-round-unbounding, with-confounding-all-round-unbounding, the up-stream-to-the-Akanittha-goer. ><...> > Walshe has: "the "less-than-half-timer", the "more-than-half-timer", the "gainer without exertion", the "gainer with exertion", "he who goes upstream to the highest." > Rhys Davids has: one who passes away before middle age in that world in which he has been reborn, one who so passes after middle age, one who so passes without much toil, with ease, one who so passes with toil and difficulty, one who striving 'upstream' is reborn in the Akanittha world. > Walshe's "exertion" and Rhys Davids "toil" for sankhara seems like a stretch to me. This is much more likely the case where there is residual effects of kamma remaining after death, such that, say, an eye keeps hanging around the vacinity, disturbing the emptiness. ... S: And Olds gives the biggest stretch of all - not surprisingly:-) He briefly used to write on DSG in the early days - would be fun if he were to join discussions again. Metta Sarah ====== #105067 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 1:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary sarahprocter... Dear Ken H pt, Appreciating your exchanges: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Here at DSG, the message is that the Buddha taught anatta (no self). Not everyone wants to hear that. Most Buddhists are strongly attached to the idea of becoming a better person. They don't want to know there is no person. .... S: I think this is true - not just "most Buddhists", but most anyone.... I liked these verses Ven Samahita quoted recently (#104949): >A deity once spoke this verse to the Blessed One: Life inevitably ceases, short is the span of life. No safe shelter exists for one prone to ageing.. Seeing this danger of certain death, one should do meritorious deeds, which brings happiness... The Exalted Buddha responded: Life inevitably ceases, short is the span of life. No safe shelter exists for one prone to ageing.. Seeing this danger of certain Death, one should drop the fleshy bait of this evanescent world! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 2 < ... S: The purpose of the teachings is not just to do meritorious deeds with an idea of atta, but to develop the understanding which eradicates all ignorance and attachment, beginning with the clinging to an idea of Self - the "bait" of samsara. .... K:> We just have to persevere and discuss the Dhamma to the best of our respective abilities. If you can tell someone about anatta without hurting their feelings, please do so. I hope I can learn from you. Meanwhile I will struggle-on in my own way. :-) ... S: Like you, I think the problem comes down to the views. Remember a couple of the lists of questions Lukas bravely put forward to K.Sujin before? Almost all the answers were either "clinging to self" or "wrong view". Lukas had sufficient right understanding and sufficiently little mana (conceit) to be able to appreciate the words, sometimes like the "Manjushri sword" as another friend, Shanti, describes it. For most people, it's too insulting, knocking down all the atta-pedestals held most dear. That's why, after all these years, all these decades, only a few people ever go to attend the English discussions in spite of the sweet voice, the kindness and the obviously good example of sila and so on. She knows and we can be confident, that even if the words are not appreciated at the time, or even cause upset as they sometimes do, later they can be the nutriment for right understanding to grow. Carry on and ignore my interruption! Metta Sarah ======= #105068 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 1:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? sarahprocter... Dear Ken H & pt (Mike & all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: >Reading your conversation with Sarah I was struck by the fact that the Dhamma overcomes grief, not when we want (desire) it to, but when it teaches us to see the presently arisen dhamma. The type of dhamma makes no difference, grief or joy, desire or non-desire; it is just the presently arisen dhamma. .... S: This is very succinct, but for me your words are always helpful. [Of course, pt may say, when addressing Nina and me, he's talking to the converted. Well, yes, but we all need to hear helpful reminders from different friends.] pt, after sending off my last message, I thought of this transcription I posted before. It's of a discussion between Vince T and K.Sujin which you've probably heard before. Vince begins with this question put very strongly: "Ajahn, I've been listening to you for many years and you've gone out of your way to emphasise this point at the expense of sometimes major confrontations with people in the room to do with meditation, so it's taken a lot of effort on your part, I think, to be very strong on this issue of meditation. What is the main motivation behind that, because the whole Buddhist world goes towards the level of meditation and you've made a lot of effort over many years to try and clarify the issue of meditation. Is it more the way people meditate or just meditation period?" For her answers, read: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/95770 Feel free to post the whole thing if you wish. It also relates to discussions others such as Mike have been having. Metta Sarah ======= #105069 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 1:48 am Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 jonoabb Hi pt (105050) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > ... > pt: I more meant it in terms of being aware of an individual dhamma, i.e. knowing how it "tastes like" and so knowing that it's dosa that I'm currently experiencing, not moha, nor any other dhamma. Though I guess being aware of an individual dhamma also implies being aware of an individual moment of dhamma, not sure. > =============== Awareness, no matter how weak, is always awareness of an individual dhamma. Whatever the dhamma that awareness takes as its object (and this will be a dhamma not of our choosing), that dhamma is experienced as just that dhamma, even if the difference between those moments of awareness and moments without awareness is barely perceptible. > =============== > pt: I still don't really get this. If I'm able to distinguish between a visible object and visual consciousness, that would seem to imply that I can (1) distinguish between sense-door process and mind-door process (and this is already the first stage of tender insight, right?) and (2) that during the sense-door process I know what's the difference in experiencing two different dhammas (so knowing individual dhammas), i.e. I'd be aware of a visual rupa (dhamma), and in another moment I'd be aware of visual citta (also a dhamma). This still sounds very direct to me, and on par with actual insight. > =============== At the beginning level, awareness experiences the dhamma either as just the experiencing of something (a nama) or as something that does not experience anything (a rupa). That's what I meant when I said visible object as distinct from seeing consciousness. I did not mean to imply that there was already awareness of both visible object and seeing consciousness. So there is already some thinking involved in what I said. > =============== > Basically, at the moment, I see pariyatti as conceptual understanding of realities. I.e. if I'm angry, I conceptually understand that there's dosa involved in what's happening, and even might understand it conceptually as anatta, but that doesn't mean that I can directly be aware of dosa (or anatta of it) as it arises in one moment and then mild lobha in the next moment, and then again more dosa, etc. It's just one big conceptual experience understood conceptually as akusala because I know that anger has to do with dosa, but I can't know arising dosa directly as individual dhamma appearing in a sequence of dhammas. > =============== We have to distinguish between (a) a conceptual understanding of some aspect of the present moment and (b) thinking about the present moment in terms of what we've learnt about the teachings but without panna arising. It's not really possible to describe how one is different from the other, other than to say that thinking about one's own situation -- for example, trying to see present mind-states as not-self, etc, -- is more likely to be the latter than the former. To my understanding, conceptual understanding involves reflecting on the dhamma that has been heard and understood. > =============== > With pativeda, I understand I'd be actually able to see these dhammas individually as they arise and fall, i.e. this is insight proper. > > But I'm just not sure what's the range of patipati - does it kind of represent just a line between pariyati and pativeda, where the former bleeds into the latter, or does patipati actually occupy a certain space between the two so to speak, so there's a level of panna that's neither conceptual understanding of kusala/akusala, nor is it direct insight, but something in between? Thanks. > =============== I'm told that, strictly speaking, the term "insight" refers to levels of vipassana nana, and not to the many, many moments of direct awareness that must precede that. In which case, "patipatti" refers to all those moments of direct awareness. Hope this makes sense. Please let me know if I've not fully addressed any of your questions. Jon #105070 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 1:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) jonoabb Hi Dieter (105053) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > D: Jon , I am as stubborn as you with this .. ;-) > =============== ;-)), ;-)) > =============== .. because of its importance of working with one's mind in the moment: the crucial issue here is concentration .... to remain focused on ... > for example when you are interested in something .. let's say you are listening to Khun Sujin , your attention is focused on seeing and hearing > her and your mind doesn't jump like a monkey anymore to these or those other sense impressions .. they are in the background , more or less absorbed. ( more as in the Jhanas by one-pointedness , less in the contemplation of Satipatthana or D.O.) > =============== I would of course agree that when you are interested in something the mind is more focussed, less distracted. But note that this is so regardless of whether the mind-states are kusala or akusala (examples of the latter would be viewing a film or a sports programme on TV, hunting an animal, in fact almost anything). > =============== > The point of training is that you exercise and not wait for the opportunity to arise.. the 4 right efforts -caring for the wholesome - are a start out of the daily monkey business > =============== I like the term 'caring for the wholesome'. To my way of thinking, however, this can happen at any time, regardless of one's present circumstances, as long as there is the 'interest' in doing so. On the other hand, no amount of exercise can induce wholesomeness to arise, and that includes going through the motions of acts that may commonly be thought to be 'kusala'. > =============== > However I suppose you let the monkey - mind run its pace and try to analyse/to determine each branch in Abhidhammic terms ..? > =============== I do not see the development of awareness as trying to analyse the present mind-state(s). I see it as involving learning more about what the Buddha said and why, and reflecting on that, bearing in mind that it is in some sense or other a description of the present moment. > =============== > But then where is the (8fold Noble ) Path ? > =============== The path is any moment of awareness that may arise. Jon #105071 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 1:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) jonoabb Hi Colette (105058) > > J: What is being highlighted by the simile, as I see it, is that with the mind there is a moment of seeing followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, then a moment > > colette: HOLD IT RIGHT THERE! ARe you suggesting that thinking does not occur until a body consciousness has been raised? ARe you sugggesting that there's a pre-determined path where 1st, the mind consciousness cognizes,2nd the eye consciousness recognizes, 3rd the ear consciousness recognizes, etc? Isn't that nothing more than programming a robot? Please do basic DOS and view PATH which tells your microprocessor how to function/think. > =============== I'm only suggesting that sense-door experiences are followed by multiple mind-door processes. However, mind-door processes can certainly occur without sense-door experiences. > =============== But lets move on. > ---------------- > of hearing followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, then a moment of bodily contact followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, then a moment of seeing again followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, and so on. > > > colette: PARDON ME, group, but how is it possible for Jon to reach these astronomical conclusions of an alleged ORDER when it's clear that the process is CHAOTIC? > =============== See comments above. > =============== ACK-TUNG, pardon my mispelling of the german language nina, jon, you sound like nothing less than the first emporer of China when he was gladly going into PARANOIA. In this case, the paranoia results from a LACK OF CONTROL. Jon, if this is just a glitch in the problems we all face w/ the use of words then I appologize for portraying you this way,eventhough this is a standard thought process and behavior, but if this is the actual planting of the seed of paranoia within your mind THEN you should heed my words about the driver driving too fast since this "ghetto freeway" is very fast. > =============== Is the "ghetto freeway" Paul McCartney too (I don't think it was the Buddha)? > =============== > Eventhough I don't know your actual intentions, I'm gonna procede upon the concept that PARANIOA has been planted and is growing THEREFORE YOU ARE CLINGING TO YOUR PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS, DELUSIONS. > =============== Probably so. Guilty as charged, no doubt ;-)). > =============== > ... > colette: okay, Dieter changes the subject real fast, bet ya didn't notice how Dieter "palmed" those cards. > =============== I think Dieter is going back to the original point he wanted to make. We've pretty much exhausted the sutta we were discussing ;-)). A good move on Dieter's part. > =============== > GOTTA GO BUT I THANK YOU BOTH FOR THIS THOUGHT AND CHANCE TO TAKE PART IN THIS DISCUSSION. > =============== Thanks to you too, Colette. Jon #105072 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 2:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >S: I was going to tell you that I'd been feeling a little sad recently too. A long story, but we found that we and my mother had had items (mostly money) stolen just before she left us and we left Hong Kong. <...> > > KO: Vipaka ... S: Yes, we say "vipaka" when someone experiences a loss like this and we all understand that past akusala kamma was responsible. However, as Abhidhamma students, we know that in fact vipaka is not what we're used to glibly referring it to - an unhappy event or situation. Akusala vipaka, the result of unwholesome kamma, refers to unpleasant bodily consciousness and associated mental factors, the seeing of undesirable visible object, the hearing of undesirable sound or the smelling or tasting of undesirable objects. In the above example, there was no unpleasant bodily consciousness in particular, no obvious seeing/hearing/smelling or tasting of undesirable objects. Even when I later spoke to the culprit, there were no harsh sounds. So actually, most the problem, really all the problem, was the second dart - the mental disturbance, the accumulated attachment and aversion which manifest so strongly at these times. It reminds me of some years ago when Jon had a tumour in his leg, but no actual pain. Our lives were turned upside down, there was extreme angst, but again, the problem was not what we convenionally refer to as "vipaka" or even the real moments of vipaka cittas, but all the long, long stories, the thinking and worry which follow the moments of seeing and hearing so rapidly. We're lost in the world of nimitta anupyanjana (signs and details) all the time. .... > > > >A tape I listened to on the flight over was helpful - reminders about having metta and compassion to those who behave badly at the time, rather than later when they experience the results of the deeds. <...> Sometimes, it's just time for equanimity. > > KO:? accumulations > > You will understand what I mean.? It really helps to think in terms of dhamma.??? <...> ... S: Yes, this is why the dhamma is always the best and only medicine. Understand the reality now - anything else is just a story! Metta Sarah ========= #105073 From: Ken O Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? ashkenn2k Dear Sarah Just vipakas, maybe let me explain more. Today?I met an unplesant matter,? there were many thoughts?of whether I will lose my job because of this.?? Then?the thought of vipaka arise.? If unproductive kamma vipaka will to arise and take away what I have, that is nothing I could do about it, it is just vipaka, conditions.? As what AS said "What can we do"?an interesting?phrase which I like to hear. What has to arise, will arise.? What will happen, will happen.?? It is the understanding of dhamma that matters when it arise.? Understanding vipaka when it arise in our senses.? ?When panna arise to understand kamma vipaka of the senses, is there?no self to lose, no self to be afraid of.? Where is there material gain to be clung to, to hold on to.? It is just vipaka, another?paramatha dhammas :-)? Cheers Ken O > >? >Dear Ken O, > >--- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, Ken O wrote: >> >S: I was going to tell you that I'd been feeling a little sad recently too. A long story, but we found that we and my mother had had items (mostly money) stolen just before she left us and we left Hong Kong. <...> >> >> KO: Vipaka >... >S: Yes, we say "vipaka" when someone experiences a loss like this and we all understand that past akusala kamma was responsible. > >However, as Abhidhamma students, we know that in fact vipaka is not what we're used to glibly referring it to - an unhappy event or situation. > >Akusala vipaka, the result of unwholesome kamma, refers to unpleasant bodily consciousness and associated mental factors, the seeing of undesirable visible object, the hearing of undesirable sound or the smelling or tasting of undesirable objects. > >In the above example, there was no unpleasant bodily consciousness in particular, no obvious seeing/hearing/ smelling or tasting of undesirable objects. Even when I later spoke to the culprit, there were no harsh sounds. > >So actually, most the problem, really all the problem, was the second dart - the mental disturbance, the accumulated attachment and aversion which manifest so strongly at these times. > >It reminds me of some years ago when Jon had a tumour in his leg, but no actual pain. Our lives were turned upside down, there was extreme angst, but again, the problem was not what we convenionally refer to as "vipaka" or even the real moments of vipaka cittas, but all the long, long stories, the thinking and worry which follow the moments of seeing and hearing so rapidly. We're lost in the world of nimitta anupyanjana (signs and details) all the time. >.... >> > >> >A tape I listened to on the flight over was helpful - reminders about having metta and compassion to those who behave badly at the time, rather than later when they experience the results of the deeds. <...> Sometimes, it's just time for equanimity. >> >> KO:? accumulations >> >> You will understand what I mean.? It really helps to think in terms of dhamma.??? <...> >... >S: Yes, this is why the dhamma is always the best and only medicine. Understand the reality now - anything else is just a story! > >Metta > >Sarah >========= > #105074 From: Ken O Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 7:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear Ken H >------------ ----> >I think everyone here (including me) is focussed on helping. We just have different ideas of what is helpful and what is not. > >Some discussions do turn into long arguments, and I suppose sometimes we need to know when to stop. Howard suggested as much in his latest post to me. But, in the meantime, we are not doing any harm are we? When you see Alex and me arguing over the same points yet again (!) you can easily scroll down to the next message. :-) KO:? arguments are not beneficial even if one think it is kusala or helpful.? It could be aksuala.? As long as conditions are not understood as it is, we?should develop kusala?and not long arguments.? >It's just that my favourite subject - did the Buddha teach formal meditation - can be a touchy one. KO:?? It is not a?touchy one, it is because a lack of understanding of this subject.???Did Buddha teach a set of meditation objects, yes he did.? Did he teach how to develop the various types of?meditation objects,?yes he did.? No one can denied it.??It is all written in the suttas and Abhidhamma.? Is there a need to purposely take up a meditation, there is no need.? Only when one?understanding matures, then one could ask a teacher for such a subject.? it is very natural proccess, due to different accumulations of a person.??Just like not all Buddha disciples are forest dwellers, for eg Ven Ananda, while Ven Kassapa like to do forest seclusion, so it depends on one accumulations.?? If people think that is a formal meditation subject, they are right they are formal in that sense of the?method being taught and the details given?but they do not realise that it needs a strong understanding to develop for taking up a meditation subject.? because one must have?firm?understanding of right view before embarking on a meditation subject.? ?If not, one will attach to a self or believe there is a I that is?doing concentration on a mediation object.???I dont promote?samadhi because it may not be fruitful, rather understanding is the better choice?as concentration could be akusala.?? > >Yes, I am sure you are right, panna develops very slowly. We will probably leave this world with the same accumulations we entered it with. KO:? Accumulations do change.?? With metta Ken O #105075 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 9:55 am Subject: New age, pop Buddhism? truth_aerator Hello Mike, KenH, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > Hi KenH, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > KH: From my experience, I would say that almost no Buddhist teachers were telling their students about namas and rupas. Before I joined DSG I had just a cursory knowledge of Abhidhamma; I didn't think it was important. > > Mike: Sorry to prolong the met[t]a discussion, but that's interesting. It's almost the opposite of my experience. My teachers have always emphasised khandhas, sense doors, anatta, etc. When I did start reading a little about Abhidhamma I realised that I'd already been exposed to most of the concepts. > > Mike: I recall one time when my teacher was talking to a mixed group, some of whom had only come to the Wat a couple of times. He basically ran through a gentle version of the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, without using any of the technical terms ("Do you think that your body permenant? Does it makes sense to identify it as 'you'? etc...") One of the women (who, it turned out, was a committed Christian) looked rather puzzled and shyly asked "But where can you find the soul?" I was impressed how he managed to raise that query in her by a bit of question-and-answer, whereas if he'd come straight out with: "According to Buddhism there is no self/soul/thingie" it would have just closed her off immediately. > > Metta > Mike Exactly. It seems strange to me that the teachers that I read, talk about no-Self, no-control, no eternal existence in Nibbana, etc. Many of the objections that KenH raised, the meditation masters have dealt with as well. Ajahn Brahm, for example, talks a lot about seeing that "doer" is an delusion. "One of the insights that are most likely after a jhana experience is the insight into the meaning of Nirodha, because this is one's first experience of anything absolutely vanishing and completely ceasing." "Once those states are experienced for what they truly are, then you can really see that something very big has gone, especially the going of the `doer'. The `doer' has been most of what you thought you were. That's what we call the `house builder' in Buddhism. It's one of the biggest causes, if not the cause of rebirth. It's what keeps samsara going ? always building new houses, new tasks, new things to do ? It makes the wheel go around. You see that `doing' has completely, absolutely gone. You're just sitting there absolutely still, frozen, no `doer'. Because there is no `doer' that's the reason there's no movement... Once that is experienced and you emerge afterwards, you've seen something that you thought impossible: an absolute disappearing and going to cessation. That which you thought was an absolute you realise is impermanent, and it can fade and actually end in peace. Once you can admit the possibility of such cessation then you can understand anatta. There is nothing substantial here because you know it can cease absolutely, completely. There is nothing remaining whatsoever, not even a cosmic or un-manifest consciousness. Cessation is cessation is cessation. If there was something left it wouldn't be called cessation. Once you can see that from your own experience it gives you the fuel for the experience of Stream Winning, it gives you the seed. Cessation has happened and you can start to understand that what you took to be self, what you took to be me, what you took to be mine, is subject to cessation, it is Nirodhadhamma. You now know what Nirodha means. You know it applies to all the five senses, you know it applies to will, and it's only a small step to know that it applies to consciousness as well. That which you thought was you, the `one who knows', ceases. It goes completely without any remainder. When you see that degree of Nirodha you have the opportunity to experience the Enlightenment experiences. You see the path of inclining towards cessation, not towards building up more things, more possessions, more thoughts, or more attainment's." -Simply this moment pg 186-187 pdf It doesn't seem New Age, Pop Buddhism, to me. With metta, Alex #105076 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 10:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Ken O,Ken H , All just jumping in..and hope you ( and Ken H) don't mind as well in respect to my slow responses to previous mails you wrote: (Ken H: It's just that my favourite subject - did the Buddha teach formal meditation - can be a touchy one. ) KO: It is not a touchy one, it is because a lack of understanding of this subject. Did Buddha teach a set of meditation objects, yes he did. Did he teach how to develop the various types of meditation objects, yes he did. No one can denied it. It is all written in the suttas and Abhidhamma. Is there a need to purposely take up a meditation, there is no need. Only when one understanding matures, then one could ask a teacher for such a subject. it is very natural proccess, due to different accumulations of a person. Just like not all Buddha disciples are forest dwellers, for eg Ven Ananda, while Ven Kassapa like to do forest seclusion, so it depends on one accumulations. If people think that is a formal meditation subject, they are right they are formal in that sense of the method being taught and the details given but they do not realise that it needs a strong understanding to develop for taking up a meditation subject. because one must have firm understanding of right view before embarking on a meditation subject. If not, one will attach to a self or believe there is a I that is doing concentration on a mediation object. I dont promote samadhi because it may not be fruitful, rather understanding is the better choice as concentration could be akusala. D: well, the point of samadhi , its meaning as part of the threefold training sequence of the Noble Path is the topic of present discussion , the dictionary supposed to be of help. Would you say above is commonly shared by the group , respectively the view of the teacher, Khun Sujin ? (Ken H: Yes, I am sure you are right, panna develops very slowly. We will probably leave this world with the same accumulations we entered it with. KO: Accumulations do change. ) D: not much for the better, I may add , as long as the (sila - ) samadhi training is not understood as the support to develop panna. The horse needs to be put before the cart .. With Metta Dieter #105077 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) moellerdieter Hi Jon, you wrote: (D: ' because of its importance of working with one's mind in the moment: the crucial issue here is concentration .... to remain focused on ... > for example when you are interested in something .. let's say you are listening to Khun Sujin , your attention is focused on seeing and hearing > her and your mind doesn't jump like a monkey anymore to these or those other sense impressions .. they are in the background , more or less absorbed. ( more as in the Jhanas by one-pointedness , less in the contemplation of Satipatthana or D.O.) > =============== I would of course agree that when you are interested in something the mind is more focussed, less distracted. But note that this is so regardless of whether the mind-states are kusala or akusala (examples of the latter would be viewing a film or a sports programme on TV, hunting an animal, in fact almost anything). (D:The point of training is that you exercise and not wait for the opportunity to arise.. the 4 right efforts -caring for the wholesome - are a start out of the daily monkey business) > =============== I like the term 'caring for the wholesome'. To my way of thinking, however, this can happen at any time, regardless of one's present circumstances, as long as there is the 'interest' in doing so. On the other hand, no amount of exercise can induce wholesomeness to arise, and that includes going through the motions of acts that may commonly be thought to be 'kusala'. D: no amount of exercise can induce wholesomeness to arise?? we run somehow in circles , pls remember the definition of Right Effort (in connection with the 10fold kamma patha) is defined : Right effort (samma--va-ya-ma): the effort of avoiding or overcoming evil and unwholesome things, and of developing and maintaining wholesome things (s. padha-na). padha-na: 'effort.' The 4 right efforts (samma-padha-na), forming the 6th stage of the 8-fold Path (i.e. samma--va-ya-ma, s. magga) are: (1) the effort to avoid (sam.vara-padha-na), (2) to overcome (paha-na-padha-na), (3) to develop (bha-vana--padha-na), (4) to maintain (anurakkhan.a-padha-na), i.e. (1) the effort to avoid unwholesome (akusala) states, such as evil thoughts, etc. (2) to overcome unwholesome states, (3) to develop wholesome (kusala) states, such as the 7 elements of enlightenment (bojjhan.ga, q.v.), (4) to maintain the wholesome states. "The monk rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, unwholesome things not yet arisen ... to overcome them ... to develop wholesome things not yet arisen ... to maintain them, and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives" (A. IV, 13). (1) "What now, o monks, is the effort to avoid? Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise, such as greed and sorrow, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses. This is called the effort to avoid. (2) "What now is the effort to overcome? The monk does not retain any thought of sensual lust, or any other evil, unwholesome states that may have arisen; he abandons them, dispels them, destroys them, causes them to disappear. This is called the effort to overcome. (3) "What now is the effort to develop? The monk develops the factors of enlightenment, bent on solitude, on detachment, on extinction, and ending in deliverance, namely: mindfulness (sati), investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya), energy (viriya), rapture (pi-ti), tranquillity (passaddhi), concentraton (sama-dhi), equanimity (upekkha-). This is called the effort to develop. (4) "What now is the effort to maintain? The monk keeps firmly in his mind a favourable object of concentration, such as the mental image of a skeleton, a corpse infested by worms, a corpse blueblack in colour, a festering corpse, a corpse riddled with holes, a corpse swollen up. This is called the effort to maintain" (A. IV, 14).' think about the exercises to overcome the ( unwholesome ) 5 hindrances ..etc. J (D: However I suppose you let the monkey - mind run its pace and try to analyse/to determine each branch in Abhidhammic terms ..?) > =============== I do not see the development of awareness as trying to analyse the present mind-state(s). I see it as involving learning more about what the Buddha said and why, and reflecting on that, bearing in mind that it is in some sense or other a description of the present moment. D: right effort and leaned on that right mindfulness /sati applies to the present moment ( not excluding the Jhanas ) , doesn't it? J: (D But then where is the (8fold Noble ) Path ?) > =============== The path is any moment of awareness that may arise. D: you mean in connection with the exercises/contemplations as in detail explained in the Maha Satipatthana Sutta ? with Metta Dieter #105078 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 9-feb-2010, om 7:28 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > The wedding party in the rose garden, the party and dinner at the > old Parliament House is just a dream of the past. Even the swim > this morning, the thoughts of a moment ago - all dreams not worth > clinging to. Likewise our plans for this evening, the sights and > sounds and tastes we'd like to experience next - all just > hankerings that lead us away from the present moment, the > understanding of visible object or sound appearing now. > > The development of understanding now is the only kind of > "intelligence" that is of any value in an ultimate sense, the only > kind that will help bring release from the bonds of samsara. ------ N: So it is. I am just back from the funeral of my brother, an exhausting trip to the South of France. I tried to talk a little to the widow, speaking about Ken O's words that sadness makes us accumulate more negative qualities and that Kh Sujin does not want us to be sad, but still how difficult it is. When I saw the house again without him it was quite a shock, and could not help crying. But then I thought of Ken O's a bit severe words, and it helped. I appreciate it if someone is a bit severe. It is useless to cry. I saw my dead brother in the hospital just before the funeral and it was not so sad. I spoke to others that it was very natural. I could not bring in much Dhamma, since people were not ready for it. The funeral was really beautiful and very dignified and sober and just his sons were speaking in a sincere, simple way. Nina. #105079 From: "colette" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 10:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) ksheri3 Hi Jon, You are, as we in the normal, sane, world say, "waaaaaaay out there" and this is nothing new since this is ORTHODOXY. Don't worry, that's the entire point that the alleged "disciple" is always "way out there" or "no where near the truth" when they are attempting to become a member of the gang. > > I'm only suggesting that sense-door experiences are followed by multiple mind-door processes. > colette: I'm just working w/ what the words, THAT YOU WROTE AND THAT YOU THOUGHT OF, say. You place sense-door experience BEFORE, PRECEDING, mind-door consciousness THEREFORE YOU SUGGEST THAT SUNYATA IS NOT REAL, THAT SUNYATA/SHUNYATA IS A LIE, IS A FALSEHOOD, SINCE THE OBJECT HAS TO EXIST BEFORE THE MIND HAS ANY CONCEPTION OF AN ABILITY TO COGNIZE -- which is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE OF THE MIND-ONLY SCHOOL that simply states that from the time that you began formulating in an incubator you had no consciousness and it's only because you have been filled w/ OTHER PEOPLE'S PRECONCEIVED HALLUCINATIONS, DELUSIONS, MENTAL ILLNESS, this is THE CAUSE of a STATUS QUO, this is the cause of a CASTE SYSTEM, OTHER'S PROGRAMMED YOU TO BELIEVE WHAT THEY BELIEVE AFTER THEY HAVE ALREADY COMMITTED THE CRIME. Then, as you are growing up, you simply find explanations which vindicate your parents innocense to the crime that they committed and are the entire perpetuator of the crime. Don't worry, I actually cognized this same thing when I was recooperating after my first near death experience.<...> You are simply under an impression that "one thing" has to come before another thing, THAT THERE HAS TO BE A LINEAR PROCESS. <...> Your interaction is appreciated yet the problem of words comes into play, especially w/ me since society dictates to me that I have to do it by the book and when it's done by the book and doesn't come out the way they expect it to they then dictate that i failed to follow their instructions and so it is still my fault and they are blameless and had part in the operation i.e. DENIAL phase of the addict. DELUSIONARY phase of the mentally ill, status quo, middle class, etc. There are a few good points you made in your reply that I'd like to comment on later. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Colette > > (105058) > > > J: What is being highlighted by the simile, as I see it, is that with the mind there is a moment of seeing followed by many mind-door thinking processes of thinking, then a moment <...> #105080 From: Lukas Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 1:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera:? Buddhist Dictionary szmicio Dear Nina Socati(grieve) comes later. This cannot be changed. There is socati, because of moha. All those people here is just moha. It conditions the whole world. Not you that grieve or cry, this is only conditioned by moha. Since now I didnt know you brother is dead. This is sad. But what can you do? Nothing. We cannot ran away from misery and grieve. They all appears so naturaly. But we can understand that there is no Self at any moment. And this is only because of ignorance, that there is a grieve. Not we that grieve or cry. I like very much, Sarah relation of Bhante Dhammadhara funeral: The understanding of 4 Noble Truths is supreme. My best wishes Lukas >N: So it is. I am just back from the funeral of my brother, an >exhausting trip to the South of France. I tried to talk a little to >the widow, speaking about Ken O's words that sadness makes us accumulate more negative qualities and that Kh Sujin does not want us to be sad, but still how difficult it is. When I saw the house again without him it was quite a shock, and could not help crying. But then I thought of Ken O's a bit severe words, and it helped. I appreciate it if someone is a bit severe. It is useless to cry. I saw my dead brother in the hospital just before the funeral and it was not so sad. I spoke to others that it was very natural. I could not bring in much Dhamma, since people were not ready for it. The funeral was really beautiful and very dignified and sober and just his sons were speaking in a sincere, simple way. #105081 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 4:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, >J: On the other hand, no amount of exercise can induce wholesomeness >to arise, and that includes going through the motions of acts that >may commonly be thought to be 'kusala'. Then there is no use in studying, considering, reflecting, visiting Bankgok and so on - since "no amount of exercise can induce wholesomeness to arise". None of considering, studying, visiting KSujin can induce wholesomeness to arise. K Sujanists and Christians have the same result. None of them are any closer to arising of panna, if panna cannot be made to arise. None of them are in more advantageous positions regarding mindfulness (sati) and so on. This is the implication of your statement, and this is why it is not worth pursuing. What is the point in following a teaching if it says that nothing can be done in any way. Jon, I do hope that you reject the possibility of CONTROL, but do not refute the possibility of setting conditions for future arising of Panna when the conditions accumulate. This, btw, isn't different from methodology of meditation. Jhana is a result of certain causes, and it itself can be the cause of yathabhutananadassana to arise (see Upanisa Sutta). === "So what do people do when they try to meditate? They crave to get peaceful. They work hard to get peaceful, they strive, and they screw their minds up to get peaceful. And then they just get frustrated and think, ‘I can’t meditate’. It’s true that you can’t meditate. No atta, no ‘self’, can do the meditation: you have got to get out of the way. Put the ‘I’ aside and then you find that meditation happens. You can’t do meditation; you’ve got to just get out of the way for meditation to occur. It’s a whole process and that’s precisely what the second noble truth means. " Pg 87 - Simply This Moment! By Ajahn Brahm. "You are not controlling, you are not manipulating, and you are not doing so much anymore. All that controlling, manipulating, doing, is part of the craving to be. Craving is born of the illusion of ‘mine’, mine to control, and mine to order. Leave all that alone ?" that only leads to suffering, to pain, to more discontent, more craving and suffering. It’s a vicious cycle that we can get into. Discontent producing craving, craving producing dukkha, suffering, and suffering and discontent produces more craving. It’s so hard to let go!" "When you are trying, that’s craving ?" craving to be or to do something ?" and that leads to suffering. You can’t get success in meditation that way. If only I’d realised and kept the four noble truths in mind when I was meditating, I wouldn’t have wasted so much time." - 92 "Never think ‘I can do jhanas’ or ‘I can’t do jhanas’ because both are stupid statements." For one who experiences samadhi there is no need to make resolutions, to choose, or decide, ‘Oh, may I see things as they truly are’ (yatha bhuta-naadassana): it’s a natural process, it happens as an automatic consequence, for one who achieves samadhi. You are seeing truly all the insights that come up from the process of meditation which produces jhana. It is blocked by the second noble truth but what produces it is the third noble truth. You are actually experiencing those two noble truths for yourself; you’re seeing the heart of them, the meaning of them. You’re seeing what the Buddha was pointing to when he talked about those truths: not just ideas but actually seeing what craving is. You’re not just having ideas about letting go of craving, not just ideas about what caga patinissagga mutti analaya means, but you’ve actually done it. You have caga-ed, you’ve patinissagga-ed, you’ve mutti-ed, you’ve analaya-ed, to anglicise those Pali words. You’ve done it and that’s the result. You’ve let go and this is the bliss of letting go. This is the reward. You are seeing things as they truly are. That’s the reason I get a bit disappointed sometimes when people say, “Oh, Ajahn Brahm just teaches jhana, just teaches samatha, he doesn’t teach insight practice.” That’s a ridiculous statement. "Experience is worth so much more than any thoughts, ideas, books, or words. The theory and the words are only pointing to the experience that I’m talking about now. You experience these states of deep meditation and then you know what the absence of craving is, because you’ve seen craving disappear. In the worn old simile of the tadpole in the lake, only when the tadpole grows into a frog and leaves the lake does it know what water is. Only when you’ve left craving behind do you know what craving is." - pg 97 With metta, Alex #105082 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 5:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau Hi Mike, ------- > KH: From my experience, I would say that almost no Buddhist teachers were telling their students about namas and rupas. <. . .> M: > Sorry to prolong the met[t]a discussion, but that's interesting. It's almost the opposite of my experience. My teachers have always emphasised khandhas, sense doors, anatta, etc. When I did start reading a little about Abhidhamma I realised that I'd already been exposed to most of the concepts. ------- You were very lucky to that extent. I must admit, my initial introduction to Buddhism did include the five khandhas and anatta (etc). I still think, however, it would be good if we could be told right from the start about the realities that have arisen now, at this very moment. Never mind the stories and the concepts, what is real now? --------------------- M: > I recall one time when my teacher was talking to a mixed group, some of whom had only come to the Wat a couple of times. He basically ran through a gentle version of the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, without using any of the technical terms ("Do you think that your body permanent? Does it makes sense to identify it as 'you'? etc...") One of the women (who, it turned out, was a committed Christian) looked rather puzzled and shyly asked "But where can you find the soul?" I was impressed how he managed to raise that query in her by a bit of question-and-answer, whereas if he'd come straight out with: "According to Buddhism there is no self/soul/thingie" it would have just closed her off immediately. ----------------------- Yes, I suppose there must be some benefit in the gentle approach. I doubt, however, that the Christian woman was kept interested very long, was she? She had to be told eventually. The Anatta-lakkhana Sutta can be horribly misunderstood, BTW. Years ago, there was a very active DSG member who misquoted it to us ad nauseam. He turned out to be a devotee of Bhikkhu Thanissaro, and he repeatedly asked us, "If something is anicca dukkha and anatta, is it worthy of being regarded as 'mine' 'what I am' or 'my self'? He was trying to tell us, "No,of course not, but something else is!" Ken H #105083 From: "Mike" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 5:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary mikenz66 Hi KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > ------- > > KH: From my experience, I would say that almost no Buddhist teachers were telling their students about namas and rupas. <. . .> > > M: > Sorry to prolong the met[t]a discussion, but that's interesting. It's almost the opposite of my experience. My teachers have always emphasised khandhas, sense doors, anatta, etc. When I did start reading a little about Abhidhamma I realised that I'd already been exposed to most of the concepts. > ------- > > KH: You were very lucky to that extent. I must admit, my initial introduction to Buddhism did include the five khandhas and anatta (etc). I still think, however, it would be good if we could be told right from the start about the realities that have arisen now, at this very moment. Never mind the stories and the concepts, what is real now? Mike: Of course. Doesn't everyone teach this? > --------------------- > M: > I recall one time when my teacher was talking to a mixed group, some of whom had only come to the Wat a couple of times. He basically ran through a gentle version of the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, without using any of the technical terms ("Do you think that your body permanent? Does it makes sense to identify it as 'you'? etc...") One of the women (who, it turned out, was a committed Christian) looked rather puzzled and shyly asked "But where can you find the soul?" I was impressed how he managed to raise that query in her by a bit of > question-and-answer, whereas if he'd come straight out with: "According to Buddhism there is no self/soul/thingie" it would have just closed her off immediately. > ----------------------- > > KH: Yes, I suppose there must be some benefit in the gentle approach. I doubt, however, that the Christian woman was kept interested very long, was she? She had to be told eventually. > Mike: Yes, well I haven't seen her for quite a while. However, my main point was not really about her, but that my teacher would go straight to discussing khandhas, anatta, present moment with anyone turned up. It's my impression that this is normal among "real" Buddhist teachers. Perhaps my experience is unusual, but since my teachers are pretty ordinary, I doubt it. Of course, they do teach the "meditation techniques" that dislike so much, so presumably you'd put them in the "not to be trusted" category... > KH: The Anatta-lakkhana Sutta can be horribly misunderstood, BTW. Years ago, there was a very active DSG member who misquoted it to us ad nauseam. He turned out to be a devotee of Bhikkhu Thanissaro, and he repeatedly asked us, "If something is anicca dukkha and anatta, is it worthy of being regarded as 'mine' 'what I am' or 'my self'? He was trying to tell us, "No,of course not, but something else is!" Well, if you reflect on my little story, you'll see that it was certainly was not being used in that way in this case. And I wouldn't use it that way. So, again, I'm not sure why you are wheeling out these straw men. Metta Mike #105084 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 6:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary truth_aerator Hello KenH, all > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > Hi Mike, > The Anatta-lakkhana Sutta can be horribly misunderstood, BTW. You are right. Some may take it to mean that there is no use in doing anything, since what can not-self do? If there is no use in doing anything, then there is no use in studying, considering, reflecting on Dhamma and listening to KSujin.... Well what can not-self do: ""Now, when a disciple of the noble ones is consummate in virtue in this way, guards the doors to his sense faculties in this way, knows moderation in eating in this way, is devoted to wakefulness in this way, is endowed with seven qualities in this way, and obtains at will ? without trouble or difficulty ? the four jhanas that constitute heightened awareness and a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now in this way, then he is called a disciple of the noble ones who follows the practice for one in training, whose eggs are unspoiled, who is capable of breaking out, capable of awakening, capable of attaining the supreme rest from the yoke." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.053.than.html#t-4 >Years ago, there was a very active DSG member who misquoted it to us >ad nauseam. He turned out to be a devotee of Bhikkhu Thanissaro, and >he repeatedly asked us, "If something is anicca dukkha and anatta, >is it worthy of being regarded as 'mine' 'what I am' or 'my self'? >He was trying to tell us, "No,of course not, but something else is!" > > Ken H The above is strait sutta talk: ""What do you think, monks ? Is consciousness constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord." "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord." "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"" [repeat for other khandhas] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html As to the last sentence, as I understand it, neither TB nor the Buddha teaches it. With metta, Alex #105085 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 6:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary sarahprocter... Dear Kens H & O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > KO: You remind of a story just like a mother who tell off his son and then said the son to be hit by a bull, but inside her heart she does not even wish a leaf to fall onto the son.? You are?similar to?the mother.? > ------ > >KH Thanks for casting me in a good light, I am sure I don't deserve it. :-) .... S: very witty :-) .. > Let's be honest; wrong view is much more dangerous than a crocodile. Let's warn each other against it as best we can, when we can, and worry about the social niceties later. :-) .... S: I think this is a good point (about wrong view and the crocodile). Ken O is also pretty good at being like the mother in the story above, such as with his "a bit severe" words to Nina and others. As he puts it there (#104892): "Panna is the one that frees one from all pain and cycles." In the end, we have to take care of our own cittas after all.... In appreciation of all the reminders you both give us. Metta Sarah ======= #105086 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 6:54 pm Subject: Dhaniya Sutta Pali words (3) hantun1 Dear Sarah (and others), I am presenting the meaning of the Pali words of Dhaniya Sutta. I used Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera, PTS Dictionary, and Pali-Burmese Dictionary. The meaning of Pali words in verse are more difficult to find than the Pali words in prose, unless one is really expert in Pali grammar, which I am not. When I cannot find a Pali word in any of these Dictionaries I refer to the English translation or the Burmese translation of the sutta. As I do not know Pali grammar, there may be some mistakes in my post. I will be very happy if someone will correct any mistakes that may be found in my presentation. This will then become a continuing learning process for me also. 7. Dhaniya: I support myself on my earnings. My sons live in harmony, free from disease. I hear no evil about them at all: So if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain. 7. Attavetana bhatohamasmi (iti dhaniyo gopo) Puttaa ca me samaaniyaa arogaa, Tesa.m na su.naami ki~nci papa.m Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. attavetana = supporting oneself, earning one's own living. bhata: (adj.) supported, fed, reared, maintained. bhatohamasmi = I support myself. putta: [m.] a son; a child. samaaniyaa: (all) equally, in common. puttaa ca me samaaniyaa = my sons live in harmony. aroga: [adj.] healthy; void of sickness. su.naati: [su + .naa] hears. ki~nci: [ind.] something. paapa: evil. [Han: the same expression used: "Tassaa na su.naami ki~nci paapa.m" for his wife in Verse 5. "Tesa.m na su.naami ki~nci paapa.m" for his sons in Verse 7.] ---------- 8. The Buddha: I'm in no one's employ, I wander the whole world on the reward [of my Awakening]. No need for earnings is to be found: So if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain. 8. Naaha.m bhatakosmi kassaci (iti bhagav?) Nibbi.t.thena caraami sabbaloke, Attho bhatiyaa na vijjati Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. na aha.m = I am not. bhataka : [m.] a hired servant. kassaci = of someone. naaha.m bhatakosmi kassaci = I am not servant of someone. nibbi.t.tha (pp.) [nis+vi.t.tha, of nibbisati] gained, earned, reward. caraami: move about, wander. sabba: [adj.] all; every; whole; entire. sabbaloke: the whole world. attha: [m.] welfare; gain; wealth; need. bhati: wages, earnings. na vijjati: not exists; not to be found. attho bhatiyaa na vijjati = need + for earnings + not + to be found. ------------------------------ 9. Dhaniya: "There are cows, young bulls, cows in calf, & breeding cows, & a great bull, the leader of the herd: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." 9. Atthi vasaa atthi dhenupaa (iti dhaniyo gopo) Godhara.niyo pave.niyopi atthi, Usabhopi gavampatiidha atthi Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. Five kinds of cattle that Dhaniya had are mentioned here. (i) vasaa = young bulls not yet trained or yoked for work. (ii) dhenupaa = suckling cattle. (iii) godhara.ni = pregnant cows. (iv) pave.ni = great bulls to mate with the cows. (v) usabhopi gavampati = the leader of the herd. ---------- 10. The Buddha: "There are no cows, no young bulls, no cows in calf or breeding cows, no great bull, the leader of the herd: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." 10. Natthi vasaa natthi dhenupaa (iti bhagav?) Godhara.niyo pave.niyopi natthi, Usabhopi gavampatiidha natthi Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. The Buddha said he had none of these cattle. ------------------------- To be continued. With metta, Han #105087 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 6:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? sarahprocter... Dear Vince & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > this is a Sutta adaptation from "The Gospel of Buddha" of Paul Carus: > > "Not from weeping nor from grieving will any one obtain > peace of mind; on the contrary, his pain will be the greater and his > body will suffer. He will make himself sick and pale, yet the dead > are not saved by his lamentation. People pass away, and their fate > after death will be according to their deeds. If a man live a hundred > years, or even more, he will at last be separated from the company > of his relatives, and leave the life of this world. He who seeks peace > should draw out the arrow of lamentation, and complaint, and grief. > He who has drawn out the arrow and has become composed will > obtain peace of mind; he who has overcome all sorrow will become > free from sorrow, and be blessed." ... S: This was a lovely adaptation. Here is the full sutta for those who'd like to read it. It's one of my favourites. When my father died (a long time ago now), I read it over and over on the way to the funeral, along with a couple of other suttas. I've always found it very inspiring: Sn 3.8 Salla Sutta The Arrow [A recollection on death] Source: From The Discourse Collection: Selected Texts from the Sutta Nipata (WH 82), translated by John D. Ireland (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983). ... "Unindicated and unknown is the length of life of those subject to death. Life is difficult and brief and bound up with suffering. There is no means by which those who are born will not die. Having reached old age, there is death. This is the natural course for a living being. With ripe fruits there is the constant danger that they will fall. In the same way, for those born and subject to death, there is always the fear of dying. Just as the pots made by a potter all end by being broken, so death is (the breaking up) of life. "The young and old, the foolish and the wise, all are stopped short by the power of death, all finally end in death. Of those overcome by death and passing to another world, a father cannot hold back his son, nor relatives a relation. See! While the relatives are looking on and weeping, one by one each mortal is led away like an ox to slaughter. "In this manner the world is afflicted by death and decay. But the wise do not grieve, having realized the nature of the world. You do not know the path by which they came or departed. Not seeing either end you lament in vain. If any benefit is gained by lamenting, the wise would do it. Only a fool would harm himself. Yet through weeping and sorrowing the mind does not become calm, but still more suffering is produced, the body is harmed and one becomes lean and pale, one merely hurts oneself. One cannot protect a departed one (peta) by that means. To grieve is in vain. "By not abandoning sorrow a being simply undergoes more suffering. Bewailing the dead he comes under the sway of sorrow. See other men faring according to their deeds! Hence beings tremble here with fear when they come into the power of death. "Whatever they imagine, it (turns out) quite different from that. This is the sort of disappointment that exists. Look at the nature of the world! If a man lives for a hundred years, or even more, finally, he is separated from his circle of relatives and gives up his life in the end. "Therefore, having listened to the arahant[The Buddha}, one should give up lamenting. Seeing a dead body, one should know, "He will not be met by me again." "As the fire in a burning house is extinguished with water, so a wise, discriminating, learned and sensible man should quickly drive away the sorrow that arises, as the wind (blows off) a piece of cotton. He who seeks happiness should withdraw the arrow: his own lamentations, longings and grief. "With the arrow withdrawn, unattached, he would attain to peace of mind; and when all sorrow has been transcended he is sorrow-free and has realized Nibbana." ***** Metta, Sarah ======= #105088 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 7:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhaniya Sutta (5) sarahprocter... Dear Han, The extra Pali detail is very helpful and interesting for many of us, so please continue with your notes. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Sarah: I was talking to Nina about worldly conditions. We all face them. Best wishes with yours. Courage again! ... > Han: Yes, Sarah and Nina, the worldly conditions could affect us because of our attachment to the five aggregates. I was presenting Bhaara Sutta at another forum. I have picked up the burden of the five aggregates from the moment of my rebirth, have carried the heavy burden for more than eighty years, maintaining them, bathing, feeding, seating, and laying them down during the course of my life. I will then discard them at the moment of my death, only to take up another burden of aggregates at the moment of rebirth. I am now weary of the heavy load. But I must have courage, just as you said! .... S: Yes, the burden remains until parinibbana. The khandhas remain a burden from life to life and the only way out is by the understanding of them for what they are - khandhas which are anicca, dukkha and anatta. Here was an example of your helpful added Pali notes before which I could retrieve quickly from the section on "Burden" in UP: "H: It reminds me of SN 22.22 Bhara Sutta The Burden http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.022.than.html A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person. Taking up the burden in the world is stressful. Casting off the burden is bliss. Having cast off the heavy burden and not taking on another, pulling up craving, along with its root, one is free from hunger, totally unbound. Bhaaraa bhave pa~ncakkhandhaa bhaarahaaro ca puggalo, Bhaaraadaanam dukham loke bhaaranikkhepanam sukham. Nikkhipitvaa garum bhaaram a~n~nam bhaaram anaadiya, Samiilam ta.nham mabbuyha nicchaato parinibbuto." S: I think the commentary note B.Bodhi gives is also helpful and it stresses the same points you do: "Spk: Thus, by the expression 'the carrier of the burden,' he shows the person to be a mere convention. For the person is called the carrier of the burden because it 'picks up' the burden of the aggregates at the moment of rebirth, maintains the burden by bathing, feeding, seating, and laying them down during the course of life, and then discards them at the moment of death, only to take up another burden of aggregates at the moment of rebirth." S: Just the "burden of the aggregates". In truth, as others have stressed, no person involved at all. Metta & appreciation Sarah ======= #105089 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 8:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhaniya Sutta (5) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I know very well what you wrote just now. I have posted the following in another forum. -------------------- SN 22.22 Bhara Sutta, translated by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. At Saavatthi: There the Blessed One said this. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you the burden, the carrier of the burden, the taking up of the burden, and the laying down of the burden. Listen to that: (1) "And what, bhikkhus is the burden? It should be said: the five aggregates subject to clinging. What five? The form aggregate subject to clinging, the feeling aggregate subject to clinging, the perception aggregate subject to clinging, the volitional formations aggregate subject to clinging, the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging. This is called the burden. [Note 36] (2) "And what, bhikkhus, is the carrier of the burden? It should be said: the person, this venerable one of such a name and clan. This is called the carrier of the burden. [Note 37] (3) "And what, bhikkhus, is the taking up of the burden? It is the craving that leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination. This is called the taking up of the burden. [Note 38] (4) "And what, bhikkhus, the laying down of the burden? It is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, non-reliance on it. This called the laying down of the burden". [Note 39] This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this: "The five aggregates are truly burdens, The burden-carrier is the person. Taking up the burden is suffering in the world, Laying the burden down is blissful. Having laid the heavy burden down Without taking up another burden, Having drawn out craving with its root, One is free from hunger, fully quenched."[Note 40] -------------------- Foot Notes: [Note 36] Commentary: In what sense are these "five aggregates subject to clinging" called the burden? In the sense of having to be borne through maintenance. For their maintenance: by being lifted up, move about, seated, laid to rest, bathed, adorned, fed and nourished, etc., is something to be borne; thus they are called a burden in the sense of having to be borne through maintenance. [Note 37] The puggalavaada or "personalist" schools of Buddhism appealed to this passage as proof for the existence of the person (puggala) as a real entity, neither identified with the five aggregates nor different from them. It is the puggala, they claimed, that persists through change, undergoes rebirth, and eventually attains Nibbaana. This tenet was bluntly rejected by the other Buddhist schools, who saw in it a camouflaged version of the aatman, the self of the non-Buddhist systems. The mainstream Buddhist schools held that the person was a mere convention (vohaara), or concept (pa~n~natti) derivative upon (upaadaaya) the five aggregates, not a substantial reality in its own right. Thus, by the expression "the carrier of the burden", he shows the person to be a mere convention. For the person is called the carrier of the burden because it "picks up" the burden of the aggregates at the moment of rebirth, maintains the burden by bathing, feeding, seating, and laying them down during the course of life, and then discards them at the moment of death, only to take up another burden of aggregates at the moment of rebirth. [Note 38] Bhaaraadaana. This formula is identical with the definition of the second noble truth. So too, the explanation of the laying down of the burden (bhaaranikkhepa) is identical with the definition of the third truth. Seeking delight here and there (tatra tatraabhinandinii): having the habit of seeking delight in the place of rebirth or among the various objects such as forms. Lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure is craving for sensual pleasures (kaamata.nhaa). Lust for form-sphere or formless-sphere existence, attachment to jhaana, and lust accompanied by the eternalist view: this is called craving for existence (bhavata.nhaa). Lust accompanied by the annihilationist view is craving for extermination (vibhavata.nhaa). For Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi, the explanation of the last two kinds of craving seems too narrow. More likely, craving for existence should be understood as the primal desire to continue in existence (whether supported by a view or not), craving for extermination as the desire for a complete end to existence, based on the underlying assumption (not necessarily formulated as a view) that such extermination brings an end to a real "I". [Note 39] Commentary: All these terms are designations for Nibbaana. For it is contingent upon this (ta.m hi aagamma) that craving fades away without remainder, ceases, is given up, is relinquished, and released; and here there is no reliance on sensual pleasures or views. For such a reason Nibbaana gains these names. [Note 40] Commentary: The root of craving is ignorance. One draws out craving along with its root by the path of arahantship. -------------------- Han: I also cannot disagree with your wise conclusion [S: Just the "burden of the aggregates". In truth, as others have stressed, no person involved at all.] However, at the moment, I cannot have that kind of deep undestanding. But I am not worried. I am not worried with anything anymore. I will avoid, to the extent possible, doing unwholesome deeds bodily, verbally, and mentally. I will do, to the extent possible, wholesome deeds bodily, verbally, and mentally. If it is useless if I do the above with the notion of "I", so be it. With metta and respect, Han #105090 From: Vince Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 8:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? cerovzt@... Dear Sarah, you wrote: > S: This was a lovely adaptation. Here is the full sutta for those > who'd like to read it. It's one of my favourites. When my father > died (a long time ago now), I read it over and over on the way to > the funeral, along with a couple of other suttas. I've always found it very inspiring: > Sn 3.8 > Salla Sutta > The Arrow thousand thanks, Sarah. We share the appreciation for this text, it is really comforting. Many times I have searched the source without success. Thanks again! Vince. #105091 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 9:56 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary sarahprocter... Dear Alex, You often refer to the simile of the raft, as in #104910 to Ken H: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.093.than.html#anatha > > > ==================================== > "In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas."" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html > === > "Then the man ? afraid of the four vipers of utmost heat & horrible venom, afraid of the five enemy executioners, afraid of the sixth fellow-traveling executioner with upraised sword, afraid of the village-plundering bandits ? would flee this way or that. He would see a great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. The thought > would occur to him, 'Here is this great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. What if I were to gather grass, twigs, branches, & leaves and, having bound them together to make a raft, were to cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with my hands & feet?' Then the man, having gathered grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft, > would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with his hands & feet. Crossed over, having gone to the other shore, he would stand on high ground, a brahman. > > "'The great expanse of water' stands for the fourfold flood: the flood of sensuality, the flood of becoming, the flood of views, & the flood of ignorance. 'The near shore, dubious & risky' stands for self-dentification. 'The further shore, secure and free from risk' stands for Unbinding. 'The raft' stands for just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. > 'Making an effort with hands & feet' stands for the arousing of persistence. 'Crossed over, having gone to the other shore, he would stand on high ground, a brahman' stands for the arahant." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.197.than.html > ================ > > I really like the > "'The raft' stands for just this noble eightfold path:" > and > > "Making an effort with hands & feet' stands for the arousing of persistence. " > > The simile doesn't imply that one "reads the menu" or simply studies what someone else has seen. Dhamma is to be USED like a raft. It is not to be worshiped or intellectually studied. It implies using improvise vehicle (a raft, a means by which to cross the sea" WITH active effort. ... S: I think the simile of the raft shows us that all kinds of attachment are to be abandoned, even attachment to the highest jhana or vipassana states. I haven't seen any suggestions that it has anything to do with "reading the menu". When samatha and vipassana are yoked together, develop together, there is the arousing of the 4 efforts. As I have given before, from B.Bodhi's translation in SN: >Simile of the Raft p.229: "Bhikkhus, when you know the Dhamma to be similar to a raft, you should abandon even good states, how much more so bad states." Note 225: ""Dhammaa pi vo phaatabbaa pageva adhammaa" MA identifies the good states with serenity and insight (samatha-vipassana), and paraphrases the meaning: "I teach, bhikkhus, even the abandoning of desire and attachment to such peaceful and sublime states as serenity and attachment, how much more so to that low, vulgar, contemptible, coarse, and impure thing that this foolish Arittha sees as harmless when he says that there is no obstruction in desire and lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure." The commentator cites MN 66.26-33 as an example of the Buddha teaching the abandonment of attachment to serenity, MN 38.14 as an example of his teaching the abandonment of attachment to insight. Note that it is in each case the ATTACHMENT to the good states that should be abandoned, not the good states themselves. The Buddha's injunction is not an invitation to moral nihilism or a proposal that the enlightened person has gone beyond good and evil. In this connection see MN 76.51" (end Bodhi quote>< ***** Metta Sarah ========= #105092 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 10:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Thank you for sharing your experience. I appreciate it - we will all go through the same, the loss of our dear ones, again and again. It must have been a long and exhausting trip for you both, but fortunate the funeral was held before Bangkok. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: So it is. I am just back from the funeral of my brother, an > exhausting trip to the South of France. I tried to talk a little to > the widow, speaking about Ken O's words that sadness makes us > accumulate more negative qualities and that Kh Sujin does not want us > to be sad, but still how difficult it is. When I saw the house again > without him it was quite a shock, and could not help crying. .... S: It can be difficult to help others, but I'm sure your kindness and consideration were appreciated. I can understand the shock as well - not easy at all, no matter how much Dhamma we've heard. .... >But then > I thought of Ken O's a bit severe words, and it helped. I appreciate > it if someone is a bit severe. It is useless to cry. ... S: Yes, just as we read in the Salla Sutta. .... >I saw my dead > brother in the hospital just before the funeral and it was not so > sad. I spoke to others that it was very natural. I could not bring in > much Dhamma, since people were not ready for it. The funeral was > really beautiful and very dignified and sober and just his sons were > speaking in a sincere, simple way. ... S: I'm glad to hear it was such a fine service. Really, all the unpleasantness is because of our thinking, our worry, our regrets and so on. I'm sure everyone appreciated that you and Lodewijk were able to make the long journey and the joy and calm of kusala is so very different from the joy of our attachments. I hope you can have some rest before your trip to Thailand. Thanks again for sharing your experience. Metta Sarah ===== #105093 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 10:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Desire and Delight for Dhamma" Dhammaraga & Dhammanandi sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > Op 31-jan-2010, om 17:20 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > Similar in MN64 > > http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/ > > Majjhima2/064-maha-malunkhyaputta-e1.html > > > > Through a certain practice if one doesn't reach Arhatship, then > > through > > "Dhammaragena dhammanandiya" one can become an Anagami. > --------- > N: I compared MN 52, Atthakanagara Sutta. Ven. Bodhi's notes from > the co: > attachment (chandaraaga) with respect to serinity and insight. If one > is able to discard all desire and attachment concerning serinity and > insight, one becomes an arahant; if one cannot discard them, one > becomes a non-returner and is reborn in the Pure Abodes.> > Thus, it is not through Dhammaraga dhammanandi, rather, he penetrates > the true characteristic of attachment when it arises. That is the > only way to eradicate it. > Also the co to mahaamalunkhyaputtasutta explains that dhamma is here > samatha and vipassanaa. ... S: This was interesting, yes, "not through dhammaraga dhammanandi", but through understanding of the finest attachments. This reminds me of other suttas which friends suggest show that the Buddha was advocating attachment. Also, in the simile of the raft, as I just quoted, it's the attachment which is to be abandoned. Metta Sarah ======== #105094 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 10:29 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau Hi Mike and Alex, ----- <. . .> KH: > > I still think, however, it would be good if we could be told right from the start about the realities that have arisen now, at this very moment. Never mind the stories and the concepts, what is real now? Mike: Of course. Doesn't everyone teach this? ----- No. I had never heard it before DSG. If there are only the presently arisen conditioned realities (no me or you, or anybody that can influence anything) then it's a whole new world, never seen or heard of before the Buddha revealed it. I don't know of many Buddhist teachers who ever talk about such a world, do you? ---------------- <. . .> M: > Yes, well I haven't seen her for quite a while. However, my main point was not really about her, but that my teacher would go straight to discussing khandhas, anatta, present moment with anyone turned up. ---------------- Sorry, I thought you meant your teacher would gave a conventional, user friendly, version of the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta that could be followed by newcomers. When he asked "Do you think that your body is permanent?" did his listeners know that the term "body" (rupa) when used in the Dhamma, referred to a phenomenon very different from the "arms and legs" type of body we conventionally know? Also, "permanent" in the Dhamma does not just mean "for all eternity" it means lasting for longer than one, incalculably brief moment. It refers to a conditioned dhamma that (hypothetically) does not bear the anicca lakkhana. Not many newcomers would know that. You have to spell it out for them. These are not stories, they are the realities that are arising now. ---------------------------- M: > It's my impression that this is normal among "real" Buddhist teachers. Perhaps my experience is unusual, but since my teachers are pretty ordinary, I doubt it. Of course, they do teach the "meditation techniques" that dislike so much, so presumably you'd put them in the "not to be trusted" category... ----------------------------- I wouldn't want to disparage such nice people, but I certainly believe they have missed the point of the Dhamma. You will have read Alex's post No. 105075 addressed to both of us. I am in the process of writing a reply, but what did you think of the lesson by Ajahn Brahm's that he quoted? Did it sound to you like the same Dhamma that is found in the Tipitaka? --------------------------------- > KH: The Anatta-lakkhana Sutta can be horribly misunderstood, BTW. <. . .> M: > Well, if you reflect on my little story, you'll see that it was certainly was not being used in that way in this case. And I wouldn't use it that way. So, again, I'm not sure why you are wheeling out these straw men. ----------------------------------- Sorry, I meant that as a digression - not as a reference to you or your teachers. Ken H #105095 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ptaus1 Hi KenH, > pt: > I keep wondering how anatta can be explained in the best way, so I hope this discussion can help, though I realise it's a bit > more of a meta-discussion than dhamma-discussion. > ------------------ > > KH: If we understand the Dhamma metta will take care of itself. :-) pt: Yeah, sorry for introducing a bit of confusion there: "meta-discussion" is a bit of a technical jargon for "discussion about discussion". You'd see it often on online forums when it's discussed how to make the actual discussion more productive, etc. As for metta and dhamma, I agree with you. > KH: Why can't people be told from the outset about the middle way? Forget the extremes, just learn about conditioned dhammas. > >From my experience, I would say that almost no Buddhist teachers were telling their students about namas and rupas. Before I joined DSG I had just a cursory knowledge of Abhidhamma; I didn't think it was important. pt: I had a similar experience. However, I wonder what would have happened if I heard abhidhamma first, and skipped all the conventional stuff. In my case, I think the result would have been disastrous. I mean, it took me several years just to begin to understand what's actually meant by the "middle way". Moreover, whenever I'd come across any abhidhamma terms, my mind would just switch off and skip over it, kind of like when people who don't like maths see a mathematical formula in the middle of the text - just skip over to the conventional text that can be understood. If it wasn't for conventional explanations initially, I don't think I'd ever get to the point where I could start appreciating abhidhamma. And if buddhism was only explained in ultimate terminology, I'd have probably given up right at the start and gone for something more conventional like taoism or whatnot. I don't know. People are different, i.e. capacities are different, some are lucky enough that they can go straight away into abhidhamma, but I guess that most just can't and it takes patience and time for the transition. > KH: In fact, the Abhidhamma is the middle way. Until you know it you can't even begin to understand the suttas. pt: Nicely said. Best wishes pt #105096 From: "Mike" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:09 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary mikenz66 Hi KenH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Mike and Alex, > > ----- > <. . .> > KH: > > I still think, however, it would be good if we could be told right from the start about the realities that have arisen now, at this very moment. Never mind the stories and the concepts, what is real now? > > Mike: Of course. Doesn't everyone teach this? > ----- > > No. I had never heard it before DSG. If there are only the presently arisen conditioned realities (no me or you, or anybody that can influence anything) then it's a whole new world, never seen or heard of before the Buddha revealed it. I don't know of many Buddhist teachers who ever talk about such a world, do you? Mike: I'm sorry, but obviously we are on completely different wavelengths. I have not seen anything on DSG that I have not seen in many other places from manyh other teachers. Mike: Apart, of course, from the AS/DSG interpretation of the Canonthat because there are only conditioned cittas arising then certain types of development are impossible (but, curiously, the methods you advocate are possible). Metta Mike #105097 From: "Mike" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:14 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary mikenz66 Hi Ken --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > I wouldn't want to disparage such nice people, but I certainly believe they have missed the point of the Dhamma. > Sorry for not responding in detail to all your other points. I think you know my point of view that there are many people who understand the Dhamma, so there seems little point in responding again to the implication that outside of DSG everyone is deluded. Metta Mike #105098 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Vince, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > yes. Well, at least I understand firstly the Suttas, Vinaya and > Abhidhamma, all they point to nibbana. Buddha and his teaching > are in the world to realize nibanna and emptiness. ... S: Without understanding the emptiness, the anattaness of namas and rupas appearing now, there will never be a path leading to the realization of nibbana. .... > For sure one should stress the existence of a true reality in front > concepts. On the contrary one is lost in the practice. However, also > one should be aware that the "true reality" is not a refuge neither > freedom. Refuge is nibbana. Nibbana is so present here and now as also > naama, rupa and consciousness. It is not further neither closer. .... S: For me, I'm more interested in understanding what appears now, what is experience now, rather than dwelling on the unconditioned dhamma. This is because the conditioned dhammas have to be throughly known and understood first. .... ..... > I have seen the edited recordings and I will try with some. But an > added problem is when I have an enough English to read and write > (with some dictionary help) but much more difficult to listen and > talk. I wonder if my interview with Sujin was productive to me > because it was not very rational at all.. :) > > Are you in Bangkok now? ... S: Not yet in Bangkok. Back to Hong Kong tomorrow, then Bangkok next week. I understand your difficulty with the edited recordings. Even for native speakers of English, it can be hard to follow with the use of a lot of Pali. Why not try a short extract in the files section from Bodh Gaya. Jill, our friend who recently died, is asking simply and clearly about sati (awareness) and K.Sujin gives a great explanation. You could try to listen to a little at a time and post your notes here for further discussion. Just if you feel inclined, of course. I'm glad I posted the Salla Sutta - thank you for your response. Metta Sarah ====== #105099 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ptaus1 Hi KenO, (I've posted this reply some time ago, but it didn't show up, so here it is again, apologies if the other one pops-up as well) > KO: Only when we talk in terms of dhammas, then we will be able to help others to understand. When we talk too much about no persons and about no control, people will be confused and start being defensive because they are attached to the words and not the meaning of the dhamma. pt: Yes, I think this might be a good approach in order to side-step the possible confrontation and just get to the dhamma as quick as possible. > KO: Are you able to understand when we use the word no control, are you able to understand there is no self that is developing. Pse advise pt: I think I'm slowly starting to understand it in theory, but not really in practice. For example, in theory, if we take what Alex quoted from MN53: "(5) He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities." I take it that what is conventionally described as "keeping persistence aroused" and "abandoning and taking on" of mental qualities, can in ultimate terms happen in two ways - kusala and akusala. Kusala would be when awareness arises and that very arising of awareness accomplishes what equals to conventional description of "keeping, abandoning and taking on". There is nothing extra that needs to be done if awareness has arisen, and since awareness is a momentary conditioned dhamma, there's no sense in saying that it can be intentionally made to arise in the first place. Akusala would be when there is confusing subtle attachment with the arising of awareness, i.e. there is subtle resisting to present mental qualities and subtle craving for different mental qualities. This too can be in conventional terms described as "keeping, abandoning and taking on", though of course it is a deluded perception as there is no awareness to notice this subtle attachment in the first place. So in this regard, I believe that when you guys use such terms as "no control, no self that is developing", you are trying to point towards the kusala way and warn against the akusala way, no matter what is the conventional topic - meditation, effort, development of the path, sila, etc. All these as conventional descriptions of reality can ultimately happen in either kusala or akusala way. That's as I understand it in theory. In practice, sure, sometimes I can notice how awareness kicks in all on its own, and then disappears in exactly the same way, but most of the time I'm in the mode "ok, so what should I do right now?" which means there's conceiving of self in certain present mental qualities and desiring different mental qualities than what they are now. But, that's how thing are currently. Best wishes pt #105100 From: Vince Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:43 am Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Daar Sarah you wrote: > S: Without understanding the emptiness, the anattaness of namas and > rupas appearing now, there will never be a path leading to the realization of nibbana. [...] > S: For me, I'm more interested in understanding what appears now, > what is experience now, rather than dwelling on the unconditioned > dhamma. This is because the conditioned dhammas have to be throughly > known and understood first. yes, I agree that we should be focused in understanding of conditioned dhammas but my only point is about knowing all them. They are so many because the endless and speed of our experience. Suttas shows that we can be focused all time possible and it makes grown progress. I think so. > S: Not yet in Bangkok. Back to Hong Kong tomorrow, then Bangkok next week. you lucky. Hope you can have fruitful days in Thailand :) > Why not try a short extract in the files section from Bodh Gaya. I will do. Where are the transcriptions exactly? Inside dhammastudygroup.org website I only can find the recorded sessions. :( best wishes, Vince, #105101 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:51 am Subject: Re: The theft ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the story. > S: Any thoughts of your own? When such things happen to me like theft, false accusations, deceit, etc, in most cases it seems it's more profitable just to let go of the whole issue, as it's not such a big deal after all. But then I'm confronted by what family and friends think about what I should do in such situations, e.g. "you have to get angry, shout, fight for your right, justice, that's the only way to get something done in this world, etc". And then they might get angry and want to take matters into their own hands if I don't, etc. Or sometimes if I don't get upset by what happened to me, some might even suspect I am actually guilty of something, etc. So, it's a tough choice, I'd usually just rather let it all go, but then that often doesn't seem to be socially acceptable response. Not easy being dispassionate :) > Verse 61: If a person seeking a companion cannot find one who is better than or equal to him, let him resolutely go on alone; there can be no companionship with a fool." Yeah, this is one of the few sayings that I never really understood. I mean if wiser people don't have contact with less wise people and don't teach them dhamma, then everyone will permanently remain less wise. Though perhaps the meaning of the sutta is more narrow - i.e. it's only advice for those "seeking" a companion, so if a wise person fares alone, that still doesn't preclude him from giving dhamma lessons to those less wise. Likewise, those who do harm to the wise person would still not classify as his "companions" but only as less wise and thus can't be really blamed for their transgressions as these are a simple consequence of lack of wisdom. Best wishes pt #105102 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:32 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau Hi Mike, ------ M: > <. . .> the AS/DSG interpretation of the Canon that because there are only conditioned cittas arising then certain types of development are impossible (but, curiously, the methods you advocate are possible). <. . .> M: > Sorry for not responding in detail to all your other points. I think you know my point of view that there are many people who understand the Dhamma, so there seems little point in responding again to the implication that outside of DSG everyone is deluded. ---------- I haven't implied that. What I might have implied is: everyone who has not heard the Dhamma that is found in all three Pitikas and the ancient commentaries has not yet heard the true Dhamma. I wouldn't want to leave you with the impression that those texts taught a "method" of any kind. Unless your definition of "method" includes the arising of dhammas by conditions that are beyond anyone's control. Ken H #105103 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:09 am Subject: Re: The theft kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > <. . .> > > Verse 61: If a person seeking a companion cannot find one who is better than or equal to him, let him resolutely go on alone; there can be no companionship with a fool." > > Yeah, this is one of the few sayings that I never really understood. I mean if wiser people don't have contact with less wise people and don't teach them dhamma, then everyone will permanently remain less wise. <. . .> ---------- Hi pt, Just butting in with my own hare-brained theory . . . Maybe a person 'seeking a companion' refers to an unenlightened upasaka (refuge taker). In that case, a companion who was better would be anyone who had already reached the 8fold path, and a companion who was equal would be a fellow unenlightened upasaka. A fool would be anyone who was not at least an upasaka. (?) Ken H #105104 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A loss. nilovg Dear Lukas, I appreciate your letter very much. I am glad you requaoted Sarah's report about Bhante Dhammadara's funeral, and I thought of it at that time. We cry about stories, infatuated with what is not real in the ultimate sense. But also it is conditioned that way. We learn from such an event. Life is only in one moment of citta that passes away immediately. But then moha comes in and sorrow, conditioned by attachment. I appreciate your lists of questions that I will print out now, to take along. Nina. Op 9-feb-2010, om 22:39 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Socati(grieve) comes later. This cannot be changed. There is > socati, because of moha. All those people here is just moha. It > conditions the whole world. > Not you that grieve or cry, this is only conditioned by moha. > Since now I didnt know you brother is dead. This is sad. > > But what can you do? > Nothing. We cannot ran away from misery and grieve. They all > appears so naturaly. But we can understand that there is no Self at > any moment. And this is only because of ignorance, that there is a > grieve. Not we that grieve or cry. > > I like very much, Sarah relation of Bhante Dhammadhara funeral: #105105 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary nilovg Dear pt, Op 10-feb-2010, om 9:04 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > That's as I understand it in theory. In practice, sure, sometimes I > can notice how awareness kicks in all on its own, and then > disappears in exactly the same way, but most of the time I'm in the > mode "ok, so what should I do right now?" which means there's > conceiving of self in certain present mental qualities and desiring > different mental qualities than what they are now. But, that's how > thing are currently. ----- N: Very well expressed. I am far behind with my mails and saw some of yours and they are really lovely. Sympathetic and understanding. You are a great help to all of us. I like this remark:< I don't think I'd ever get to the point where I could start appreciating abhidhamma. And if buddhism was only explained in ultimate terminology, I'd have probably given up right at the start and gone for something more conventional like taoism or whatnot. > Very understandable and you are very sincere. Nina. #105106 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Dear Sarah & All, you wrote : (D: I remember something like Nibbana in Dhamma or vice versa ..need to find it again , but that could be controversial so better start with another issue ..) ... S: Rest assured, any issue here is bound to be controversial:-)) Sometimes when we discuss controversial issues, however, we forget how precious it is that we can even discuss such issues together. For example, we had a very sociable .. D: thanks for this nice sharing , Sarah! And a good reminder : it is indeed precious that we can even discuss such issues...there is more in common in respect of our view of life than with most other people we usually meet. And so the ' battles we are fighting ', each an attorney of one's assumed accumulated wisdom , (should) have a background of spiritual friendship , in particular when different schools are involved. Your experience in Canberra , being together with intelligent people and not being able to talk about what really counts in life , sounds to me rather familar . Place, time and opportunity .. one of those never seems to fit. That ' s different in a Buddhist country ...even or just with common people . May be you noticed that too ..especially in case you speak some Thai.. You mentioned your nephew 'still searching' .. I believe best one can do to buy a nice written compendium of the world religions/philosophies and let him choose his direction .. truth wants to be found , doesn't it? Though all dreams/experiences are not worth clinging to .. I think those we really enjoyed - and nothing is said against enjoying events involving no harm or positive development - can be a valueable source to overcome e.g. the blues when recalled ..and even support wholesome states to arise , doesn't it? By the way there is a sutta in which the Buddha is said to have smiled when recalling occasions of previous lives.. S: The development of understanding now is the only kind of "intelligence" that is of any value in an ultimate sense, the only kind that will help bring release from the bonds of samsara. Just reflecting out loud, here! I'll appreciate any of your reflections too, Dieter or anyone else. D: may be in an ultimate sense ..but I believe for our situation the understanding of now as the accumulation of previous kamma (as far as we may recall ) and our choice of action as the reaction towards it , being the perspective of future (kamma) is of utmost importance . The choice of course 'right view' orientated .. just reflecting ....;-) with Metta Dieter P.S: I remember to have read that Ven. Dhammanando intended to go to Denmark .. do you have any further information ? #105107 From: "Mike" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:42 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary mikenz66 Hi KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > I wouldn't want to leave you with the impression that those texts taught a "method" of any kind. Unless your definition of "method" includes the arising of dhammas by conditions that are beyond anyone's control. Mike: It's curious you raise this yet again, since, as you are very aware, I disagree with you on this point. Metta Mike #105108 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Desire and Delight for Dhamma" Dhammaraga & Dhammanandi nilovg Dear pt and Alex, Sarah expressed it all very well, also about the raft. I have to go on to catch up. Nina. Op 7-feb-2010, om 20:17 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > As I understand Nina, it is not attachment to samatha-vipassana > that leads to anagami stage, but it is understanding attachment of > any sort (and letting go of it as a by-product of understanding) > that leads to anagami stage, and further to arahantship if the > final residue of attachment (which is to the actual samatha- > vipassana now) has been abandoned. #105109 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:01 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau Hi Mike, ------- <. . .> KH: > > I wouldn't want to leave you with the impression that those texts taught a "method" of any kind. Unless your definition of "method" includes the arising of dhammas by conditions that are beyond anyone's control. Mike: > It's curious you raise this yet again, since, as you are very aware, I disagree with you on this point. ------- I raised it because you had written: ". . . but, curiously, the methods you advocate are possible." KH: Apparently, you have not yet realised that the AS/DSG interpretation does *not* advocate a method. Ken H #105110 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka nilovg Dear pt, Op 7-feb-2010, om 9:32 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > pt: Here I'm wondering about the part "this is a direct > understanding of the citta" - does that mean one is already able to > distinguish an individual dhamma (like citta) even before the > actual stages of insight started to happen? I.e. I thought that > conceptual understanding of a citta as a/kusala in samadhi means > that dhammas cannot be known individually yet, but only as concepts > about realities. > > Or perhaps my assumption that - knowing an individual dhamma > directly (so not conceptually) before actual stages of insight is > impossible - is wrong? ------ N: I think the meditator knows when the citta is kusala and when akusala, and this is important since he wants to be temporarily free of sense impressions. Without developing insight he does not know citta 'as a dhamma'. I do not know much about conceptual or not. But he still has to know different cetasikas which are jhaanafacors, such as vitakka and vicara, and even know their difference. He does not know them theoretically, but has to know them when they arise. He has to be very, very skilfull. Nina. #105111 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:40 pm Subject: Teachers truth_aerator Hello KenH, Mike, All, >"kenhowardau" wrote: >If there are only the presently arisen conditioned realities (no me >or you, or anybody that can influence anything) then it's a whole >new world, never seen or heard of before the Buddha revealed it. Then no need to study, consider or learn anything. No need to listen to KS or what you say, since it cannot set the conditions for arising of panna. No need to follow the precepts, since nothing can influence arising of panna. >I don't know of many Buddhist teachers who ever talk about such a >world, do you? Makkhali Gosala taught this. As to inability of morality to do anything (since there isn't a killer or the one who is killed) is Purana Kassapa's view. "'And among them there is no killer nor one who causes killing, no hearer nor one who causes hearing, no cognizer nor one who causes cognition. When one cuts off [another person's] head, there is no one taking anyone's life. It is simply between the seven substances that the sword passes http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html With metta, Alex #105112 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:19 pm Subject: The arrow and raft simile truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > KH: Apparently, you have not yet realised that the AS/DSG >interpretation does *not* advocate a method. > > Ken H Then what is the point in it if it cannot do anything? Why follow something that isn't a method for achieving Nibbana? I really hope for KS, that you are misinterpreting what she says. Buddha was clear on this. His path is a PATH, A METHOD, for Nibbana. Thinking doesn't get you there. Remember the parable of the arrow? ""It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him." "And what is declared by me? 'This is stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. And why are they declared by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are declared by me. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html The 4th Noble truth contains N8P, which includes as we know, practice and things to do. Ex: a person should abstain from murdering one's parents. A person should eliminate unwholesome intentions, unwholesome actions (such as killing, stealing, and so on), etc. In MN2 there are 7 aspects of dealing with asavas/taints: By seeing wisely, by restraining, by using, by tolerating, by avoiding, by destroying, and those to be abandoned by developing. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html Buddha didn't say "just study and that is all". With metta, Alex #105113 From: "Mike" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:18 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary mikenz66 Hi KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > ------- > <. . .> > KH: > > I wouldn't want to leave you with the impression that those texts taught a "method" of any kind. Unless your definition of "method" includes the arising of dhammas by conditions that are beyond anyone's control. > > Mike: > It's curious you raise this yet again, since, as you are very aware, I disagree with you on this point. > ------- > > I raised it because you had written: > > ". . . but, curiously, the methods you advocate are possible." > > KH: Apparently, you have not yet realised that the AS/DSG interpretation does *not* advocate a method. > > Ken H Mike: I don't recall writing that. Are you sure it was me? The way threading works on this board software is difficult for me to unravel, so I don't have an easy way to check. If someone (perhaps me) did say something like that they probably meant that your "method" is to read, consider what is being read, and observe what is going on. All of which involve quite a lot of conceptual manipulation. Mike: I do very clearly understand that the AS/DSG position ("point of difference" if you like) is that you claim that no "methods" are possible, or helpful. Metta Mike #105114 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:44 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ptaus1 Hi Mike, > M: The way threading works on this board software is difficult for me to unravel, so I don't have an easy way to check. Yes, yahoo groups are a bit different and not as easy to use as other forms of current online forums. The easiest way to look through the thread for me is to: (1) click on the individual post (2) once the post is loaded, what you get is the post text and then below it is a list of messages in that thread, so you'd have to click on each link individually to check each post. However, the faster way is to: (3)look for "expand" option which is written in very small blue letters and it's located just below the blue reply button in the left corner below the message text. When you click on "expand" - all the messages in the thread will be loaded and then you can scroll through the entire thread without having to load each message individually. This is the best yahoo can do, and it's a bit closer to what one's used to say on dhammawheel, but it's still not prefect as the messages are not put in thread order according to time of posting but according to the reply sequence. But it's still much better and faster than going through each post individually. There are a few more technical tips in this message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/103290 Please let me know if you have any other technical troubles, might be able to help. Best wishes pt #105115 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:23 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ptaus1 Hi Mike and KenH, > > KH: Apparently, you have not yet realised that the AS/DSG interpretation does *not* advocate a method. > > M: If someone (perhaps me) did say something like that they probably meant that your "method" is to read, consider what is being read, and observe what is going on. All of which involve quite a lot of conceptual manipulation. > > M: I do very clearly understand that the AS/DSG position ("point of difference" if you like) is that you claim that no "methods" are possible, or helpful. pt: Perhaps I'm wrong, but I feel that as long as we are stuck in the dichotomy of method/no method, we're not on the right track. I mean it's the same as the dichotomy of eternalism/anihilationism. It's just the 2 extremities of a speculative view. Everything can be conventionally interpreted as a method, even "no method" can be called a method, but all that would be missing the point. The point is, I think - is there awareness arising right now or not? If it is, then that's the correct path at that moment - i.e. wisdom has arisen, which means that right view is present as the forerunner for the other factors of the 8-fold path at that moment. That I believe is the crux of the matter and I believe we all agree on this. Now perhaps we could take the argument towards trying to determine what are the conditions that bring about the arising of awareness? I'm not yet clear on this myself. I.e. firstly what does it mean "conditions"? Do we stick to conventional terminology only? In that case everything can be interpreted as a condition - quiet place, noisy place, reading suttas, meditating, etc. Or do we use ultimate terminology only? In that case there are 24 conditions according to patthana and they have nothing to do with the conventional designations as quiet place, noisy place, reading suttas, meditating, etc. What do you think? Best wishes pt #105116 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:39 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary truth_aerator Hello Pt, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi Mike and KenH, > > > > KH: Apparently, you have not yet realised that the AS/DSG interpretation does *not* advocate a method. > > > > M: If someone (perhaps me) did say something like that they probably meant that your "method" is to read, consider what is being read, and observe what is going on. All of which involve quite a lot of conceptual manipulation. > > > > M: I do very clearly understand that the AS/DSG position ("point of difference" if you like) is that you claim that no "methods" are possible, or helpful. > > pt: Perhaps I'm wrong, but I feel that as long as we are stuck in >the dichotomy of method/no method, we're not on the right track. I >mean it's the same as the dichotomy of eternalism/anihilationism. >It's just the 2 extremities of a speculative view. I think the issue is about Anatta and setting up causes for panna to arise. Some people take overly simplistic view that somehow meditators try to make panna arise. Panna cannot be controlled to arise, but the causes CAN be set. If we deny the possibility of not only control, but planting causes as well - then we have a nihilism. Nothing could be done to to set causes for awakening. Listening to KS, listening to Dhamma, considering Dhamma - they would be useless (if one were to believe in the 'no method'). So some things being said here, by some people, would deny their own teaching as well. What is the point in following a teacher who says that nothing can be done, awakening cannot be hastened, causes and conditions cannot be set? I mean if that is the case, then it is pointless to listen and follow what that teacher teaches. ========== As to anatta, no-control, etc. Many meditation teachers teach it. "Many people have had these states once, just by chance, and have craved to get them back again. If you've had a religious experience, a state of bliss, and crave to get it back again you never will. The only way to experience those states is by a very profound letting go, a very, very profound non-doing, and a very profound emptiness of the mind, a mind empty of the `doer'. All these things just happen by themselves. They are beautiful processes, empty of a `controller', empty of a `doer'. That is what you are learning to let go of in this beautiful meditation. The more you control, the more you press the buttons and flick the switches, the more problems you get." It can be very scary to get into deep meditations. Do you know the reason why? It's because `you' have to disappear before you get into them. You're letting go of you, or what you take to be you. That's why it's wonderful to be able to completely get rid of the person in here who is always calling the shots, always talking, always making the decisions. Just allow things to stop by themselves." pg 144 - Simply this moment! By Ajahn Brahm With metta, Alex #105117 From: "philip" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:14 pm Subject: Accumulations and dwindling of akusala kamma patha philofillet Hi Ken and all Hope you've been well. I'm basically taking a year (at least) off Dhamma discussion. > Yes, I am sure you are right, panna develops very slowly. We will probably leave this world with the same accumulations we entered it with. This is interesting. We do have the suttas that point out how long the accumulations have been building, no doubt about that, the Buddha doesn't lie. And then there are so many suttas that urge sila for the sake of achieving a favourable rebirth. Again, the Buddha doesn't lie, and the "we can't understand those sutttas because they were given to people of advanced understanding" line doesn't apply, because they form a part of the teaching that the Buddha gave to people before he determined that their minds were ready for the deep teachings. So there seems to be a gap. Accumulations building through aeons, and achieving favourable rebirth on the basis of dhammas conditioned in this one lifetime. We *can* see, all of us, I assume, how behaviour that constitutes akusala kamma patha has decreased as a result of coming across the Buddha's teaching. What is the relation between that reduction of akusala kamma and any possible wearing away of the accumulations? No answer here, but interesting to reflect on. Not interesting enough to make a wise person hesitate to value wholesome behaviour because of any doubt issues, but interesting nonetheless. Catch you again, on occasion. Metta, Phil #105118 From: "philip" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:36 pm Subject: Re: Accumulations and dwindling of akusala kamma patha philofillet Hi again I wrote: > So there seems to be a gap. Accumulations building through aeons, and achieving favourable rebirth on the basis of dhammas conditioned in this one lifetime. If akusala has been accumulating for aeons (and it has, not disputing that) how is it possible for the Buddha to teach that sila in this one lifetime can lead to favourable rebirth? It might have to do with something that Rob Moult had in his book on Abhidhamma, that in natural decisive support condition, kammas that are recent have greater weight. A.S denies that and I haven't come across it anywhere else - yet - but it provides a logical explanation for the above question. The abstention from akusala kamma patha that has become more frequent in our lives as a result of the rare good fortune of having been born human in a time when the teaching of a Buddha exists might have relatively greater weight that kusala performed in past lives. I will lead this one lifetime believing that this is the case for the sake of the conditioning power involved in such a belief, even as I keep the channel open for gradually getting into a deeper and possibly truer understanding. Metta, Phil #105119 From: "philip" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:42 pm Subject: Re: Accumulations and dwindling of akusala kamma patha philofillet Hi again again. I don't usually correct typos but this was a confusing one. >>>The abstention from akusala kamma patha that has become more frequent in our lives as a result of the rare good fortune of having been born human in a time when the teaching of a Buddha exists might have relatively greater weight THAN kusala performed in distant past lives. Interesting. If this isn't the case, and if all the aeons and aeons worth of accumulated akusala doesn't somehow become diluted in power, how can there possibly be a way out of samsara? Metta, Phil #105120 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:48 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ptaus1 Hi Alex, > A: I think the issue is about Anatta and setting up causes for panna to arise. pt: Yes, there's definitely that issue, though I was hoping to side-step it for now as it doesn't seem to be easily resolvable, so I thought that discussing first what are the conditions for the arising of panna might make things clearer. > A: but the causes CAN be set. > > If we deny the possibility of not only control, but planting causes as well - then we have a nihilism. Nothing could be done to to set causes for awakening. Listening to KS, listening to Dhamma, considering Dhamma - they would be useless (if one were to believe in the 'no method'). > > So some things being said here, by some people, would deny their own teaching as well. What is the point in following a teacher who says that nothing can be done, awakening cannot be hastened, causes and conditions cannot be set? I mean if that is the case, then it is pointless to listen and follow what that teacher teaches. pt: Sometime ago, I was struggling with this same conclusion. The solution was (surprise, surprise) that I was mixing up conventional and ultimate terminology. I'll try to explain, maybe it helps. 1. In ultimate terminology that focuses only on the present moment: (I hope we agree that) panna can only arise in the present moment while having as the object another present dhamma (let's forget about navattaba for a while). That is what insight is afaik - being presently aware of a dhamma and it's characteristics of anatta, dukkha and anicca. If at present moment there's intentional attempting to set up conditions for future arising of panna, then that quite obviously means that there's no panna at the present moment! This is because panna cannot take as the object a dhamma in the future - panna is only concerned with the present, while future and past are domains of attachment and conceptual thinking. Therefore, this can only mean that the attempting to set up certain conditions in the future is equivalent to some sort of present attachment to a concept about future. Concept is not a dhamma, and therefore, there's no panna at the moment. Attachment means either aversion to present mental state and wanting another mental state in the future (like panna, which again means that there is no panna presently), or delighting in the present mental state and being averse to it disappearing in the future (which again means that there is no panna presently because it wouldn't be concerned with the future in the first place). Thus, in ultimate terms, the moment we're not discussing the present moment anymore, we're off-track. By this logic then, it is impossible to set up conditions for panna intentionally because it would require leaving the present moment. In conventional terms: In my view, everything can be called a condition for future arising of panna - studying, meditating, cooking, crying, dana, sila, etc. The question though is whether a particular conventional activity (like meditating or studying) always produces (conditions) panna? If it doesn't (and there doesn't seem to be an activity which always produces panna) then that means we're not defining the conditions clearly enough and we can't establish clear cause-effect relationship. Therefore arguing about whether conventional activity of meditating or studying will produce more panna in the future than some other activity doesn't seem very productive to me, and perhaps we would have more luck if we define the conditions for the arising of panna more precisely? The only other option I see is talking in terms of the 24 conditions described in the patthana, but I have very little understanding about these to say anything definite. Best wishes pt #105121 From: "mikenz66" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary mikenz66 Hi PT, Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Pt, all, ... > > pt: Perhaps I'm wrong, but I feel that as long as we are stuck in >the dichotomy of method/no method, we're not on the right track. I >mean it's the same as the dichotomy of eternalism/anihilationism. >It's just the 2 extremities of a speculative view. > > Alex: I think the issue is about Anatta and setting up causes for panna to arise. > > Alex: Some people take overly simplistic view that somehow meditators try to make panna arise. Panna cannot be controlled to arise, but the causes CAN be set. ... Mike: Yes, that's the way I see it, and the way most teachers I respect see it. They are not denying anatta or "lack of control". In fact, it seems to me that this "lack of control" understanding is a realisation that arises sooner or later whatever "(non)-method" one follows (DSG or otherwise). Mike: As PT says, this whole discussion is pointless if it keeps coming back to the Monty-Pythonesque exchange: "Anyone who teaches a method isn't teaching Dhamma" "Yes they are" "No they aren't" ... Mike: On the other hand, as I understand it, there are many pitfalls for any Dhamma student to get stuck in (which Nina, Sarah, and others often point out) and it is useful to be able to discuss these. Metta Mike #105122 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:57 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau Hi Mike, ---- KH: > > > I raised it because you had written: > > > > ". . . but, curiously, the methods you advocate are possible." > > > > KH: Apparently, you have not yet realised that the AS/DSG interpretation does *not* advocate a method. > > > > > Mike: I don't recall writing that. Are you sure it was me? ---- Yes, in message 105096 you wrote: "Mike: I'm sorry, but obviously we are on completely different wavelengths. I have not seen anything on DSG that I have not seen in many other places from many other teachers. Mike: Apart, of course, from the AS/DSG interpretation of the Canon that because there are only conditioned cittas arising then certain types of development are impossible (but, curiously, the methods you advocate are possible)." ----------- M: > The way threading works on this board software is difficult for me to unravel, so I don't have an easy way to check. ------------ I don't have much skill in that area. But I see pt has offered to help , and so I will delete the dubious instructions that I typed out this morning. :-) ------------------ M: > If someone (perhaps me) did say something like that they probably meant that your "method" is to read, consider what is being read, and observe what is going on. All of which involve quite a lot of conceptual manipulation. ------------------- Not sure what you (or they) might mean by "observe what is going on" but the rest is certainly right. Some of us do read a lot (I am not one of them unfortunately) and some of us spend a lot of time considering and discussing what we have read. But we don't do those things with the idea of getting somewhere. There is no one to get anywhere: there is just the present moment! But you know that. :-) Ken H #105123 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. > N: I think the meditator knows when the citta is kusala and when > akusala, and this is important since he wants to be temporarily free > of sense impressions. Without developing insight he does not know > citta 'as a dhamma'. I do not know much about conceptual or not. But > he still has to know different cetasikas which are jhaanafacors, such > as vitakka and vicara, and even know their difference. He does not > know them theoretically, but has to know them when they arise. He has > to be very, very skilfull. That makes sense. From the discussion with Jon, it seems I had a wrong understanding of the difference between conceptual, direct and insight level understanding, hence my confusion. Thanks for your other replies as well, it's good to have you back. Best wishes pt #105124 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:59 pm Subject: Re: Accumulations and dwindling of akusala kamma patha kenhowardau Hi Phil, --------- Ph: > Hope you've been well. I'm basically taking a year (at least) off Dhamma discussion. ---------- I know the drill. You hit and run like one of those village-raiding dacoits you told us about. :-) But I will answer anyway, someone might be listening. --------------- KH: : > > Yes, I am sure you are right, panna develops very slowly. We will probably leave this world with the same accumulations we entered it with. Ph: > This is interesting. We do have the suttas that point out how long the accumulations have been building, no doubt about that, the Buddha doesn't lie. And then there are so many suttas that urge sila for the sake of achieving a favourable rebirth. ---------------- I thought it was sila for the sake of sila. But I agree sila does condition favourable rebirth. As I understand it, an ordinary person has no way of knowing which kamma from which lifetime will condition the *next* rebirth. (Although I think maybe a jhana master can.) ----------- Ph: > Again, the Buddha doesn't lie, and the "we can't understand those sutttas because they were given to people of advanced understanding" line doesn't apply, because they form a part of the teaching that the Buddha gave to people before he determined that their minds were ready for the deep teachings. ----------- So you say. I haven't heard this deep teachings/shallow teachings dichotomy from any other source, Phil. But don't let me interrupt. ---------------- Ph: > So there seems to be a gap. Accumulations building through aeons, and achieving favourable rebirth on the basis of dhammas conditioned in this one lifetime. ---------------- I don't see why there is a gap. Even if the next rebirth can be conditioned only in this present lifetime (which I am sure is not the case) how does that conflict with gradual the accumulation of mental states? --------------------- Ph: > We *can* see, all of us, I assume, how behaviour that constitutes akusala kamma patha has decreased as a result of coming across the Buddha's teaching. --------------------- There are other things that can cause the *appearance* of rapid change in personality. Each of us reacts differently in different situations. For example, some of us will perform at our best in times of adversity, or unfavourable birth, and at our worst in times of opulence, or favourable birth. For some it will be the other way around, and others might act pretty much the same whatever the circumstances. We can have our theories, but according to the Dhamma, the adze handle always wears away very, very slowly. ----------------------------- Ph: > What is the relation between that reduction of akusala kamma and any possible wearing away of the accumulations? ----------------------------- Every little kamma adds to the overall picture. 'Drop by drop the water pot is filled.' ----------------------------- Ph: > No answer here, but interesting to reflect on. Not interesting enough to make a wise person hesitate to value wholesome behaviour because of any doubt issues, but interesting nonetheless. Catch you again, on occasion ------------------------------ Catch you on your next raid. :-) Ken H #105125 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary nilovg Dear pt, Op 11-feb-2010, om 3:23 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Everything can be conventionally interpreted as a method, even "no > method" can be called a method, but all that would be missing the > point. The point is, I think - is there awareness arising right now > or not? If it is, then that's the correct path at that moment - > i.e. wisdom has arisen, which means that right view is present as > the forerunner for the other factors of the 8-fold path at that > moment. That I believe is the crux of the matter and I believe we > all agree on this. > > Now perhaps we could take the argument towards trying to determine > what are the conditions that bring about the arising of awareness? > > I'm not yet clear on this myself. I.e. firstly what does it mean > "conditions"? Do we stick to conventional terminology only? In that > case everything can be interpreted as a condition - quiet place, > noisy place, reading suttas, meditating, etc. Or do we use ultimate > terminology only? In that case there are 24 conditions according to > patthana and they have nothing to do with the conventional > designations as quiet place, noisy place, reading suttas, > meditating, etc. ------- N: Excellent. Well said. We always have to consider the moment, this moment now, not situations, stories about what to do, what do 'I' have to do. 'I', 'I', 'I'. Nina. #105126 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. nilovg Dear Vince, Op 7-feb-2010, om 7:25 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > > - First, I don't see kamma listed as one of the 4 paramattha dhammas. > > - Second, you says "kamma OR volition". However we read in the Suttas > there are other dhammas are also named "kammas". ------- N: The word or can create a misunderstanding: kamma or volition: kamma, namely volition. Cetanaa. Kamma is cetanaa cetasika. As Howard explained: the Buddha spoke about kamma and volition as being the same. Here we speak about kusala kamma and akusala kamma. Volition motivating deeds. ------- > > V: but kamma is explained by means cause(hetu) and effect(phala). > Eye,ear... are also kamma. I think this is maybe what you are > forgetting. ------ N: We have to be careful when speaking about kamma and its result. Result is mental, vipaakacitta and physical: ruupas produced by kamma, such as the sensebases, the eye, etc. Eye could not be volition, it is ruupa, it does not know anything. -------- > V: >> Shouldn't we talk more about what you can experience right >> now? Kh Sujin speaks a lot about seeing, because we are seeing all >> the time and it is real, a paramattha dhamma. >> Did she speak to you about seeing? What do you think of seeing? Do >> you find it understandable that seeing experiences only colour, no >> persons or objects? > > a little, although my interest with Sujin was knowing how she focus > her experience of daily life according her progress. Discussion about > seeing and seer was not a real concern. -------- N: I do not think about Kh Sujin's progress, how could I know. I only notice that she always brings us back to the present moment and that she can explain this in such a direct way. I feel I have to listen very carefully when she speaks about seeing and visible object. She speaks about seeing, one moment, and that is the world of seeing. Thinking, that is the world of thinking, another world. Seeing is not hearing, it is not thinking. This may seem too simple and people think: everybody knows this. But, has this been investigated, considered when these realities actually appear? Only then they can be realised as just dhammas, anattaa, or empty as you like to say. --------- > > V: Paramattha dhammas are real and also empty. Seeing exists because > there is arising of both consciousness and nama&rupa in a co-dependent > way, in the present moment. > > Without the seen, there is not seeing. > Without consciousness, there is not the seen. > Don't you agree? ------ N: Yes, I agree. There has to be an object when seeing arises. Each citta experiences an object. As you say: the seen and the seeing are there together. The seen, ruupa, has to arise just before citta that sees it. Ruupa, in this case visible object, impinges on the eyesense and after the stream of bhavangacittas is arested, the eyedoor adverting-consciousness adverts to visible object and is then succeeded by seeing. Eyesense is ruupa that has to arise before there can be seeing. Ruupa is still weak at its arising moment and cannot function as sensebase or doorway yet. Ruupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta: its arising moment, the moments of its presence and the moment of its falling away. These moments are like a flash, so short. ------- > > V: I sent you a question for Sujin about this co-arising and > Paramattha > dhammas. > She answered some thing about that? ------ N: I am still in Holland, but kept your question on my list. I find the question rather difficult, could you not add just a short example? Co-arising of what, and which paramattha dhammas are you thinking of? Which consciousness, which naama and which ruupa? -------- > V: >> Should we not discuss more attachment, anger, >> thinking, all those realities that can be experienced now? > > yes, if you wish. But, do you think right decontextualize them of > the understanding of kamma and the co-arising of consciousness and > nama&rupa?. Anyway I can leave this thread if you wants. ------- N: Just what you feel like writing about. Perhaps kamma should be discussed more. But for now I am too short of time. > ------ Nina. #105127 From: han tun Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:55 pm Subject: Dhaniya Sutta Pali words (4) hantun1 Dear Sarah (and others), Dhaniya Sutta Pali words (continuation) 11. Dhaniya: "The stakes are dug-in, immovable. The new mu~nja-grass halters, well-woven, not even young bulls could break: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." 11. Khiilaa nikhaataa asampavedhii (iti dhaniyo gopo) Daamaa mu~njamayaa navaa susa.n.thaanaa, Na hi sakkhinti dhenupaapi chettu.m Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. khiila: (m.), peg; a stake; a post. nikhaata: [pp. of nikha.nati] dug into; buried. asampakampiya: [adj.] not to be shaken, immovable. daama: rope. mu~njamaya: mu~nja-grass. nava: [adj.] new. susa.n.thaana: [adj.] having a good design; well-woven. na: [ind.] (negative particle), no; not. hi: [ind.] because; indeed. chettu: [m.] one who cuts; cutter. na hi sakkhinti dhenupaapi chettu.m = not even young bulls could break. [Han: Here, there is some confusion. In verse (9) dhenupa is translated as suckling cattle, which is correct. But here, dhenupa is translated as young bulls. PTS Dictionary also gives the meaning of dhenupa as a suckling calf. I cannot explain this discrepancy.] -------------------- 12. The Buddha: "Having broken my bonds like a great bull, like a great elephant tearing a rotting vine, I never again will lie in the womb: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." 12. Usabhoriva chetva bandhanaani (iti bhagavaa) Naago puutilata.m va daalayitvaa, Naaha.m punupessa.m gabbhaseyya.m Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. usabha: [m.] a leading bull. chetva: having cut, broken. bandhana: [nt.] bound; fetter; bondage. naaga: elephant. puuti : [adj.] rotten; putrid; stinking. puutilataa: rotten vine. daaleti = daareti: [daal + e] splits; bursts open. dalayitvaa: having torn, having broken. naaha.m = I never. puna: [ind.] again. punupessa.m = again will lie. gabbhaseyyaa : [f.] conception in a womb. -------------------- 13. The great cloud rained down straightaway, filling the lowlands and high. Hearing the rain-god pour down, Dhaniya said: 13. Ninna~nca thala~nca puurayanto Mahaa-megho pavassi taavadeva, Sutvaa devassa vassato Imamattha.m dhaniyo abhaasatha. ninna: (nt.) low ground. thala: [nt.] dry ground, high ground. puurayati = filling up. megha: [m.] rain; a cloud. pavassi: [aor. of pavassati] shed rain. || taava: [in.] so much; so long; as far as. taavadeva = that much. sutvaa = having heard. devassa vassato = rain god. imamattha.m = ima.m + attha = this meaning. abhaasi = speak. --------------------- 14. How great our gain that we've gazed on the Blessed One! We go to him, the One with vision, for refuge. 14.[Dhaniya said:] Laabhaa vata no anappako Ye maya.m bhagavanta.m addasaama, Sara.na.m ta.m upema cakkhuma Satthaa no hohi tuva.m mahaa-muni. laabhaa: (ind.), it is profitable; it is a gain. vata: [ind.] surely; certainly. no = 1. no, not. 2. us. anappaka: [adj.] much; many. ye te those who, i. e. all. maya.m: [nom. plu. of amha] we. ye maya.m = all of us. bhagavanta.m = the Blessed One. addasaa: (pret. of dakkhati) saw. sara.na: [nt.] protection; help; refuge; a shelter. ta.m = 1. that. 2. to you. upeta: [pp. of upeti] endowed with. upema cakkhuma = the One with Vision. satthaa = the Teacher. no = 1. no, not. 2. us, our. tuva.m: [nom. sin. of tumha] thou. hohi tuva.m = may you be. mahaamuni : [m.] the great sage. satthaa no hohi tuva.m mahaa-muni = "May you be our Teacher, our Great Sage" -------------------- 15. May you be our teacher, Great Sage. My wife and I are compliant. Let's follow the holy life under the One Well-gone. Gone to the far shore of aging and death, let's put an end to suffering and stress." 15. Gopii ca aha~nca assavaa Brahmacariya.m sugate caraamase, Jaatimara.nassa paaraguu Dukkhassantakaraa bhavaamase. gopii: [f.] a woman herding the cows or the wife of a cowherd. ca: [copulative or disjunctive particle] and; then; now. aha.m: [nom. sing. of amha] I. gopii ca aha~nca = my wife and I. assava : [adj.] loyal; attentive. brahmacariya.m = holy life. sugate = the One Well-gone. caraamase = follow. jaatimara.nassa = birth and death. paaraguu : [adj.] gone beyond; the far shore. antakara = the end of. dukkhassa + antakara = put an end to suffering. bhavati: [bhu + a] becomes; to be. -------------------- 16. Mara: [Note 8] Those with children delight because of their children. Those with cattle delight because of their cows. A person's delight comes from acquisitions, since a person with no acquisitions doesn't delight. 16. Nandati puttehi puttimaa (iti maaro paapimaa) Gomiko gohi tatheva nandati, Upadhii hi narassa nandanaa Na hi so nandati yo niruupadhii. nandati: [nand + a] is glad; rejoices; finds delight in. putta: [m.] a son; a child. puttehi = children. puttima: [adj.] having children. go: [m.] an ox; cattle in general. gohi = cattle (plural). gomi = having cattle. gomika: [adj.] owner of cattle. tattha: [adv.] there; in that place. upadhi: foundation, basis, ground. [here, it means acquisition] upadhii hi narassa = comes from acquisitions. na hi so nandati = he (so) has no delight. yo niruupadhii = with no acquisitions. -------------------- 17. The Buddha: "Those with children grieve because of their children. Those with cattle grieve because of their cows. A person's grief comes from acquisitions, since a person with no acquisitions doesn't grieve." 17. Socati puttehi puttimaa (iti bhagavaa) Gomiko gohi tatheva socati, Upadhiihi narassa socanaa Na hi so socati yo niruupadhiiti. Same as in Verse 16, except that nandati is replaced by socati (grief). -------------------- This is the End. with metta, Han "I" "I" "I" #105128 From: "Mike" Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:12 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary mikenz66 Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: ... > KenH: Not sure what you (or they) might mean by "observe what is going on" but the rest is certainly right. Some of us do read a lot (I am not one of them unfortunately) and some of us spend a lot of time considering and discussing what we have read. > > KenH: But we don't do those things with the idea of getting somewhere. There is no one to get anywhere: there is just the present moment! But you know that. :-) > Exactly, "We" don't practise to "get something". Standard instructions. Metta Mike -------- Ajahn Chah: http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Dhamma_Goes_Westward.php "Letting go of past and future, look at the present. Then you will know the Dhamma. You may know the words spoken by various teachers, but you still do not know your own mind. The present moment is empty; look only at arising and ceasing of sankhara (formations). See that they are impermanent, unsatisfactory and empty of self. See that they really are thus. Then you will not be concerned with the past or the future. You will clearly understand that the past is gone and the future has not yet arrived. Contemplating in the present, you will realize that the present is the result of the past. The results of past actions are seen in the present." Ajahn Chah: http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Opening_Dhamma_Eye1.php "Having tried to establish wholesome results in our practice, seeing them, we attach to them. This type of clinging comes from our wanting to get something from the practice. This is vipassanu, the wisdom of defilements (i.e. ''defiled wisdom''). Some people develop goodness and cling to it, they develop purity and cling to that, or they develop knowledge and cling to that. The action of clinging to that goodness or knowledge is vipassanu, infiltrating our practice." #105129 From: "philip" Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:41 am Subject: Re: Accumulations and dwindling of akusala kamma patha philofillet Hi Ken > I know the drill. You hit and run like one of those village-raiding dacoits you told us about. :-) > > But I will answer anyway, someone might be listening. I guess it's a case of the boy who cried wolf no longer being trusted, but you'll notice that there was no "hit" in my e-mail this time, I was truly interested in your point that accumulations might not be reduced in this lifetime. You might be right. Thanks for your comments, interesting. Indeed, the pot is filled drop by drop. OK, I'm leaving again now, but please note that it wasn't a raid this time. Metta, Phil p.s I do love those daicots! Thanks for remembering. #105130 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:15 pm Subject: Hey Friend! bhikkhu.sama... Hey Friend: Refine your Mind! Every friend is an extension of me. Every friend has taught me what I am. How can I not be thankful to those friends, who cared me, loved me, and gave me a warm experience of the feeling of love? How can I not be thankful to those friends, who made me feel that I am so beautiful, and given me the feeling of being on the top of the world? How can I not be thankful to those friends, who have given me the knowledge and helped me to stand in front of the world with the feeling of security. How can I not be thankful to those friends, who went away from me and gave me the experience of detachment from loved ones and loneliness? How can I not be thankful to those friends, who cheated me and thereby gave me the experience of the feelings of hate and anger? How can I not be thankful to those friends, who left me and found another friend and thereby gave me experience of jealousy? How can I not be thankful to those friends, who put me down and made me inferior by showing my weakness, giving me the experience of deprivation? How can I not be thankful to ALL those friends, who just made me think that my mind is in the control of others and nothing is in my own control? One day I sat in the corner of my room, thinking and thinking, looking here and there, and then saw what: A glance at a book of Buddha! How can I not be thankful towards the Buddha who explained me compassion. My dear friend, destroy these mental seeds of those feelings that control your mind. Why don't you try to destroy these mental seeds of hate? Why don't you try to destroy these mental seeds of anger? Why don't you try to destroy these mental seeds of jealousy? Why don't you try to destroy these mental seeds of greed? Why don't you try to destroy these mental seeds of laziness? Why don't you try to destroy these mental seeds of clinging? These emotions are very harmful to your mind Reform your mind my dear friend! Dhamma will teach you, how to reform nothing other than your mind! Poem by: Deepali Nandeshwar deepsee30@... Wonderful it is to train the mind, so swiftly moving, seizing whatever it wants. Good is it to have a well-trained mind, for a well-trained mind brings happiness. Dhammapada 35 Hey Friend! #105131 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana was :Notes about the three rounds, no 4. nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 1-feb-2010, om 19:31 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > in particular:... pa??? is gradually developed from life to > life..snip ..we do not know when they will arise. It takes many > lives, but we should not be impatient.' > > this sounds to me very strange especially when we talk about > satipatthana ... considering the Buddha's conclusive statement : > > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in > this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for > him: either gnosis right here & now, or - if there be any remnant > of clinging-sustenance - non-return. > "Let alone seven years. ------- N: I am catching up with old mails. You quoted Ven. Thanissaro who stresses concentration and jhaana. Then about the gradual development: seven years, etc. Before, several posts were exchanged about this point. I wrote that it is not helpful to think of a future result and I still think so. What about the present moment, do we really know it as it is? If not, we should rather develop more understanding of it. It depends on the right conditions when the result will arise. Let us be encouraged by this sutta, hearing that the right cause will surely bring the right result. Nina. #105132 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 1-feb-2010, om 20:48 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > N: Not without right understanding of the eightfold Path. If that > is lacking we cannot speak of pathfactors. B.B. translate sammaa- > sankappa, right thinking, as right intention which is not so good. > > D: in training one is on the way to perfection , needs to work with > the 'right' understanding what has been reached so far. > I wonder whether the translation of samma ditthi and samma - > sankappa in terms of right understanding to right view > and right thought/thinking to right intention may not highlight the > development (?) ------- N: Right view is O.K. Right intention instead of right thinking may be confusing. why change the Pali? Vitakka is a cetasika that hits or touches the object that is experienced and assists citta in cognizing the object. When it assists citta accompanied by pa~n~naa of the eightfold Path it assists citta and the other cetasikas to know this or that ruupa and this or that naama appearing at the present moment. Sammaa di.t.thi and sammaa sankappa are together the wisdom of the eightfold Path (the other factors constituting the siila and the concentration of the Path). --------- > > D: I would prefer to postphone possible question(s) to Khun Sujin > until we can somehow conclude the discussion of our topic .. ------- N: Perhaps now, so that I can print them out? BUt when you feel inclined to it. Nina. #105133 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:57 am Subject: seven years, seven days. nilovg Dear Dieter, I wrote about the long way in "The Buddha's Path": Thus, here we see that it is a long way. Many aeons of developing understanding 'for both you and I'. For someone who had passed countless lives of developing understanding there will be his last life and then these seven years or seven days may be applicable. ----- Nina. #105134 From: Ken O Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear Mike > >Mike: Yes, that's the way I see it, and the way most teachers I respect see it. They are not denying anatta or "lack of control". In fact, it seems to me that this "lack of control" understanding is a realisation that arises sooner or later whatever "(non)-method" one follows (DSG or otherwise). > KO:?? Yes, if?one is patient, truthful and sincere in this forum, sooner or later, one will realise that the initial conceptual?meaning of anatta?.? Because in the first place, no self arises as all dhamma are not self.? Dhamma?dont belong to anyone, hence one cannot said that I want to die or live or I do not wish to age.? The idea there is a self that exercise authority over ones aggregate, is miccha ditthi.? Understanding anatta?is what Abhidhamma is for, is what the living dhamma is for. ?>Mike: As PT says, this whole discussion is pointless if it keeps coming back to the Monty-Pythonesque exchange: >"Anyone who teaches a method isn't teaching Dhamma" >"Yes they are" >"No they aren't" >... > >Mike: On the other hand, as I understand it, there are many pitfalls for any Dhamma student to get stuck in (which Nina, Sarah, and others often point out) and it is useful to be able to discuss these. > KO:? then stop discussion those you find not fruitful.? lets discuss dhamma.? When we discuss dhamma, it does not matter what method we use or whether there is a method at all, as it all boils down with panna.? Lets not?suck with the languages and?lets learn dhamma.?? Because without learning dhamma, one cannot develop?panna.?? And?without panna there is no eradication of defilements.? The best way to learn dhamma is through Abhidhamma.? Till date,?the best teacher I ever meet in promoting the?living?Abhidhamma, in understanding the present moment, in understanding anatta,?is?A Sujin.? No doubt about it. with metta Ken O #105135 From: "connie" Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:44 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (318, 18) nichiconn Dear Sarah, Thanks for catching & correcting my mistake. peace, connie #105066 > < > Walshe > DN 33.2.1(18) 'Five kinds of Non-Returner (anaagaamii): *1094 the "less-than-half-timer", the "more-than-half-timer", the "gainer without exertion", "he who goes upstream to the highest". .... S: Somehow the "gainer with exertion" got missed out in the translation here. .... #105136 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:49 am Subject: The Burden nilovg Dear Han and friends, I just looked through the different mails and saw that khandha as a burden was discussed. I found a passgae in the co to the Itivuttaka, the Twos, on burden which may be of interest: < One who has laid down the burden (ohitabhaaro): the three burdens are the burden of the khandhas, the burden of defilements and the burden of the accumulations...> But this may not add much to your interesting discussions. Nina. #105137 From: "budla" Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:59 am Subject: "Hinayana" in the Kanjur? budla I am going to be part of a panel discussion among Buddhists of different traditions. I participate in the Theravada (Thai), but have read a good deal of Mahayana literature. I am not very well versed in the Tibetan tradition, however. I have been told that the Tibetan Canon contains the Suttas of the "Hinayana," and my references say that one section of the Kanjur is "Sutras," including "Hinayana" suttas. But of the 270 sutras in that section of the Kanjur, only 25% are "Hinayana." That would be about 67 suttas, which is hardly the entire mainstream Canon. My question is, does anyone know just which suttas are in the Kanjur? I have tried to find a list of the "Hinayana" sutras in question, but can only find citations of percentages. #105138 From: Ken O Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: terms and realities and kamma ashkenn2k Dear Vince its ok to be longitude.? It is always a delight to discuss dhamma with you. >> >Please, understand that I'm not trying to deny what you says and of >course not Abhidhamma!! . I agree very much with Abhidhamma >explanations because it is a deep teaching, and of course beyond my >reach. Abhidhamma serves to manage becoming completely and it is >the more important thing and also I try to learn with Abhidhamma. > >However, what I miss is a clear conciliation with what D.O. shows. >For sure the conciliation exists, and probably it appears in the >practice of every person. And as we are not are arhants, then the >discussion is good. KO:? Nina book on Conditions is a very good book to understand conditons because this is complex subject.? In Abhidhamma a.????Ignorance is a?root condtion which could arise on its own.? But for craving and aversion, they must arise together with ignorance.? b.??? Consiousness cannot arise on its own, it has to arise with cetasikas (which are nama)?and rupas when we see or hear etc.? For one to be rebirth, one must have arisen of craving, and craving must arise with ignorance.? Craving and ignorance are root conditions for the citta to want?something.? Citta is nama. ?craving and ignorance?are?nama and also roots.??Rupa?is the?a sense object.? And the craving could be due to a?pleasant visible rupa or a?audible rupa or tasting?rupa which citta experience. I try to explain the sense process?in how Abhidhamma reconcile with the D.O.??Using seeing a pleasant visible rupa as an example a.??? At the moment of the arisen of a seeing citta, kamma must arise to condition the seeing citta.? Seeing citta is also known as the resultant consciousness. b.??? Seeing citta arise with the 7 universal cetasikas (nama)?and an object which is the visible object (rupa) c.??? In Abhidhamma, <> (pg 213, Dispeller of Delusion),? hence base cannot exist without nama and rupa as condition. d.??? Again in Abhidhamma contact << the five consisting of eye base, etc. are conditions in six ways as support, prenascence, faculty, dissociation, presence and non-disapperance conditons for contact of five kinds divided up into eye contact, etc, >> (pg 218 Dispeller of Delusion, para 830) e.??? Feelings, cravings, clingings all arise during the javana process of the sense process.? And when craving arise, it will conditions?becoming of?future rebirth and the mass of suffering > >Conditionality cannot be in dhammas but in what is conceiving that >there is a conditionality among them. When there is knowledge of >dhammas (be conceptual or real) also we know there is a needed >conditionality among them. >Such conditionality is conventional, because we know nibbana is >unconditioned. If conditionality was a characteristic of dhammas >themselves (as color, odor, solidity...) then nibbana and the >eradication of ignorance would not be possible, because we are >only a process of dhammas. KO:? Condition is a characteristics of a dhamma, because conditons shows arisen, present and dissolution.? It shows the impermance, dukkha and not self of a dhamma.? Condition is not the cause of our rebirth.? It is ignorance that conceals the conditionality of a dhamma and not condition itself.? Because ignorance conceal it, one keep thinking there is self, there is happiness in this condition world, one keep craving for this happiness and this self. >Condition for seeing is the seen. Here we say "citta knows". >However, this conditionality is not in citta, in the seeing or in the >seen. Because seeing is just seeing. The seen is just the seen. >Citta is just citta: she just know the seeing and the seen. >At this point all is perfect and without any error; it is freedom and >nibbana. >But then, Why the immediate understanding of all that don't cause >awakening?. Here we can say also "by kamma", "by latent tendencies". .. >etc. Of course that's truth but also it only means that there is >ignorance of the root of the arising in itself, which is where >I try to point. > > KO:? IMHO, you are trying too hard to see many characteristics of a dhamma when it arise.? This would only bring more agitation because our panna still undevelop and cannot see the workings of various cetasikas, rupas and conditions.?? The start of developing understanding in the present moment is to understand the characteristic that appear the?at the present moment.? At the moment of seeing a pleasant object, which characteristic appear.? If it is craving, then understand it as it arise.? Dont worry how it arise or whether it arise with two roots or whether which is seeing or which is visible object.? It is the living of the present moment that is the gist of the natural development method.?? When the characteristic of dhamma is understood more and more, one will notice that there is no self in this process,?ones mind will incline towards understanding of not self.? It is very natural and dont worry if it does not arise very often because it takes time for panna to develop, >yes, but Ignorance of what?. It is not only the ignorance of this or >that dhamma. Ignorance refers not only of arising of dhammas but also >of the arising in itself. KO: Ignorance conceals, blinds us from the present reality from understanding the characteristics of dhamma, anatta, anicca and dukkha.? >but according this, it would mean that javanas, panna, lobha or citta, >they can arise in the table just because there is an eye in front an >object. Why not?. What's lacking? KO:? No, table as a?visble rupa?is a rupa.? Rupa cannot experience anything.? >Seeing is not the eye. Eye and object arises together with >consciousness. This co-arising and this origination. it is the bond. >In this way we are born at every instant. And also for that reason the >eye is mentioned as another kamma in the Suttas. Eye is rupa and it >arises in this same moment. And it should be known as kamma!! >In this moment arises conciousness and nama&rupa, and from here the >rest of dhammas. KO: Sorry I like to emphasis that it is craving that bonds and not the eye object or eye >I understand that in practical terms, when one is practicing avoiding >-self and regarding the seeing and the seen ("citta knows"), also >one should be aware that all these dhammas arise in that same moment. >At least I understand in that way. We are born at every moment. KO:? Again allow me to say that we do not avoid, we understand reailty as it arise be it pleasant or unpleasant. >So at least I understand "the long way" is referred to the total >cease of ignorance and to become an arhant. It is not directly >referred to the realization of the root cause of dukkha, to realize >nibbana. It is referred to the understanding and managing of the >becoming in complete way. I understand this is the only sense of the >"long way", and in fact it is the source of difference betwen >sotapanna, anagami and arhant. Because there is only one nibbana, not >many. > >Difference is in the eradication of ignorance, which can be >progressively eradicated by managing and understanding the becoming. >Well, at least I understand this is the real goal of Abhidhamma, and >also for this reason must be so rich, complex and difficult. KO:? Welcome to Abhidhamma,?to me it?is the living dhamma.? Only when one?keep an?open mind to learn it,? then could one know how sweet it is and how truthful it has been to the Buddha dhamma.? With metta Ken O #105139 From: Ken O Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear Dieter > >D: well, the point of samadhi , its meaning as part of the threefold training sequence of the Noble Path is the topic of present discussion , the dictionary supposed to be of help. >Would you say above is commonly shared by the group , respectively the view of the teacher, Khun Sujin ? KO:? Arising of samadhi may not condition panna, that is why beings in the Brahma planes have to experience rebirth, go in endless cycle.???Also the arising of kusala?may not condition panna,?those divine beings who are now experiecne the result of?their good sila in?perform in past lives?will still have to experience rebirth and go in endless cycle.?? But divine beings who are at least?stream entrant?are assured of ending cycle, these divine attain stream entrant through right view (panna) >D: not much for the better, I may add , as long as the (sila - ) samadhi training is not understood as the support to develop panna. >The horse needs to be put before the cart .. > KO:? You must understand which is the horse and which is the cart.? Right view is always the forerunner.??? With metta Ken O #105140 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] seven years, seven days. moellerdieter Dear Nina , you wrote: ' I wrote about the long way in "The Buddha's Path": Thus, here we see that it is a long way. Many aeons of developing understanding 'for both you and I'. For someone who had passed countless lives of developing understanding there will be his last life and then these seven years or seven days may be applicable. D: Yes , a long way -for all - until the Buddha appeared in the world after re-discovering the ancient path like the Buddhas before him ...taking aeons... But then he proclaimed it and so many of his disciples had the opportunity to understand and penetrate the truths just in one life time. The Buddha Dhamma is now available to us , waiting to be understood and penetrated as it was to the ancient disciples , who passed it to us. N: ( D: this sounds to me very strange especially when we talk about > satipatthana ... considering the Buddha's conclusive statement : > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in > this way > for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for > him: either gnosis right here & now, or - if there be any remnant > of > clinging-sustenance - non-return.> "Let alone seven years.) ------- N: I am catching up with old mails. You quoted Ven. Thanissaro who stresses concentration and jhaana. Then about the gradual development: seven years, etc.Before, several posts were exchanged about this point. I wrote that it is not helpful to think of a future result and I still think so. What about the present moment, do we really know it as it is? If not, we should rather develop more understanding of it. It depends on the right conditions when the result will arise. Let us be encouraged by this sutta, hearing that the right cause will surely bring the right result. D: It is up to everbody him/herself how to approach the Noble Truths and its Path , some may take many lives for penetration .. but anyone - as the Buddha stated - when developing these four frames for 7 years ..or even only for 7days ..one of two fruits can be expected.. We - the householders - are hardly able for such consequent training .. but it is possible according to the Teaching Hence my astonishment when you speak about sati patthana and its perfection taking a long time, several lives ..it cannot not be said so in general .. it is not the point of thinking about future results ..but it is the recognition of suffering what determines the effort , isn't it? with Metta Dieter #105141 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:48 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary truth_aerator Hello Pt, KenH, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > Hi Alex, >pt: Sometime ago, I was struggling with this same conclusion. The >solution was (surprise, surprise) that I was mixing up conventional >and ultimate terminology. I'll try to explain, maybe it helps. > > 1. In ultimate terminology that focuses only on the present moment: > If at present moment there's intentional attempting to set up >conditions for future arising of panna, then that quite obviously >means that there's no panna at the present moment! Intention by itself is not delusion. Intention can be skillful or unskilful. With wrong views or without wrong views. Here is a crux of the matter. Even arahants have intentions and can plan about what to do later that day. Are they deluded? They will and plan! As to conditions for Panna, there is Panna sutta: "Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite conditions lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. Which eight? "There is the case where a monk lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect. This, monks, is the first cause, the first requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. "As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or under a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect, he approaches him at the appropriate times to ask & question him: 'What, venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?' He [1] reveals what is hidden, makes plain what is obscure, and dispels perplexity in many kinds of perplexing things. This is the second cause, the second requisite condition... "Having heard the Dhamma, he [2] achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... "He is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. This is the fourth cause, the fourth requisite condition... "He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has stored what he has heard. Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end, that ? in their meaning & expression ? proclaim the holy life that is entirely complete & pure: those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views. This is the fifth cause, the fifth requisite condition... "He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. This is the sixth cause, the sixth requisite condition... "When he is in the midst of the Sangha he doesn't talk on & on about a variety of things. Either he speaks Dhamma himself or he invites another to do so, and he feels no disdain for noble silence. [3] This is the seventh cause, the seventh requisite condition... "He remains focused on arising & passing away with regard to the five aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This, monks, is the eighth cause, the eighth requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html Note: "Having heard the Dhamma, he [2] achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... Read this! -> "He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. This is the sixth cause, the sixth requisite condition... With metta, Alex #105142 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] seven years, seven days. nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 11-feb-2010, om 19:50 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > > ' I wrote about the long way in "The Buddha's Path": > good and > wholesome and the conditions for the eradication of defilements. > In developing the Buddha?s Path one will come to know one?s > ignorance of > realities, one?s selfishness and other defilements. The change > from selfishness to detachment, from ignorance to understanding is > immense. > How could such changes take place within a short time? It is > a long process. Also the Buddha and his disciples had to walk a > long way in > order to gain full understanding of the four noble Truths and > freedom from the cycle of birth and death. > > > D: Nina, forgive me for saying it a bit blunty : the Buddha set > the Wheel > of the Dhamma already in motion and it is still moving .. we are not > supposed to 're-invent ' the Wheel .. -------- > N: I referred to the Buddha's former lives as a Bodhisatta. The > quoted sutta refers to this. ------- > > N: We read ... > Monks, it is through not understanding, not penetrating four noble > Truths > that we have run on, wandered on, this long, long road, both > you and I. > > D: Yes , a long way -for all - until the Buddha appeared in the > world > after re-discovering the ancient path like the Buddhas before > him ...taking > aeons... > But then he proclaimed it and so many of his disciples had the > opportunity to understand and penetrate the truths just in one life > time. > The Buddha Dhamma is now available to us , waiting to be > understood and > penetrated as it was to the ancient disciples , who passed it to us. ----- N: Certainly. We should not delay the development of understanding, and this right now. ------- > > D: It is up to everbody him/herself how to approach the Noble > Truths and > its Path , some may take many lives for penetration .. > but anyone - as the Buddha stated - when developing these four > frames > for 7 years ..or even only for 7days ..one of two fruits can be > expected.. > We - the householders - are hardly able for such consequent > training .. but > it is possible according to the Teaching > Hence my astonishment when you speak about sati patthana and its > perfection > taking a long time, several lives ..it cannot not be said so in > general .. > it is not the point of thinking about future results ..but it is the > recognition of suffering what determines the effort , isn't it? ------ N: We do not know our former lives, these were likely with a lot of lobha, dosa, moha. When someone said to Kh Sujin that the Path is so difficult, takes so long she said: now you are praising the Buddha's wisdom. He was able to overcome all obstacles. We cannot predict anything for ourselves, but I am not inclined to think that it is a short time matter. We read in the commentaries about cira kaala bhaavana, a long time practice. People in the Buddha's time could hear Dhamma directly from him and this does make a difference. He knew people's dispositions. We are reminded to develop understanding with perseverance and patience, not with longing for result. ------- Nina. #105143 From: "colette" Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ksheri3 Hi Ken and Dieter, Before the Horse can have a cart to be put before the horse needs A YOKE i.e. YOGA. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Dieter > > > > >D: well, the point of samadhi , its meaning as part of the threefold training sequence of the Noble Path is the topic of present discussion , the dictionary supposed to be of help. > >Would you say above is commonly shared by the group , respectively the view of the teacher, Khun Sujin ? > > KO:? Arising of samadhi may not condition panna, that is why beings in the Brahma planes have to experience rebirth, go in endless cycle.???Also the arising of kusala?may not condition panna,?those divine beings who are now experiecne the result of?their good sila in?perform in past lives?will still have to experience rebirth and go in endless cycle.?? But divine beings who are at least?stream entrant?are assured of ending cycle, these divine attain stream entrant through right view (panna) > > > >D: not much for the better, I may add , as long as the (sila - ) samadhi training is not understood as the support to develop panna. > >The horse needs to be put before the cart .. > > > KO:? You must understand which is the horse and which is the cart.? Right view is always the forerunner.??? > > > With metta > Ken O > > #105144 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] seven years, seven days. upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter and Nina - I think you both make valid points, but I find myself leaning towards your emphasis, Dieter, and away from Nina's. I'll insert some comments in that regard in context below. In a message dated 2/11/2010 1:50:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Dear Nina , you wrote: ' I wrote about the long way in "The Buddha's Path": Thus, here we see that it is a long way. Many aeons of developing understanding 'for both you and I'. For someone who had passed countless lives of developing understanding there will be his last life and then these seven years or seven days may be applicable. D: Yes , a long way -for all - until the Buddha appeared in the world after re-discovering the ancient path like the Buddhas before him ...taking aeons... -------------------------------------------------------- Dieter, I think this is a very important point. With the Dhamma not present in the world for aeons, only a rare paccekabuddha might arise. But with the Dhamma reintroduced, practice leading to full awakening within a single lifetime, even within a single week, becomes possible to more than a few. Of course, what is possible is not necessarily likely. Awakening, even for those who understand and practice the Dhamma, is extremely difficult and relatively rare. And not understanding that can lead to frustration and even skepticism with regard to the Dhamma. Thus Nina is correct in pointing that out. However, pointing it out repeatedly, and with very little balancing mention of the definite possibility of attaining the ariyan stages quickly with proper and sustained practice, may lead to hopelessness and lack of effort. So, all the facts need to be known, and we need to avoid one-sidedness, it seems to me. --------------------------------------------------------- But then he proclaimed it and so many of his disciples had the opportunity to understand and penetrate the truths just in one life time. --------------------------------------------------------- Yes. ------------------------------------------------------- The Buddha Dhamma is now available to us , waiting to be understood and penetrated as it was to the ancient disciples , who passed it to us. ----------------------------------------------------------- Yes. And also, even if no ariyan stage is reached in this lifetime, and even if there are no overt signs of "progress" in ourselves, with concerted practice, wholesome change at a deep level of mind is bound to be occurring. Nothing comes from nothing, but whether sooner or later, with proper practice the state of effortless freedom can be attained. (This "effortless freedom" terminology, BTW, makes me think of the "Lilies of the field" metaphor and of the Zen quote with which I end this post.) ----------------------------------------------------------- N: ( D: this sounds to me very strange especially when we talk about > satipatthana ... considering the Buddha's conclusive statement : > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in > this way > for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for > him: either gnosis right here & now, or - if there be any remnant > of > clinging-sustenance - non-return.> "Let alone seven years.) ------- N: I am catching up with old mails. You quoted Ven. Thanissaro who stresses concentration and jhaana. Then about the gradual development: seven years, etc.Before, several posts were exchanged about this point. I wrote that it is not helpful to think of a future result and I still think so. What about the present moment, do we really know it as it is? If not, we should rather develop more understanding of it. It depends on the right conditions when the result will arise. Let us be encouraged by this sutta, hearing that the right cause will surely bring the right result. D: It is up to everbody him/herself how to approach the Noble Truths and its Path , some may take many lives for penetration .. but anyone - as the Buddha stated - when developing these four frames for 7 years ..or even only for 7days ..one of two fruits can be expected.. We - the householders - are hardly able for such consequent training .. but it is possible according to the Teaching Hence my astonishment when you speak about sati patthana and its perfection taking a long time, several lives ..it cannot not be said so in general .. it is not the point of thinking about future results ..but it is the recognition of suffering what determines the effort , isn't it? with Metta Dieter ================================= With metta, Howard Free /I'm a poor but happy man of the Way. All my needs are satisfied by chance: Last night the west wind downed an old tree; at daybreak firewood covered the ground, gauze silk clouds adorned red scarps, dew drop pearls bejeweled green cliffs. What's present has always decided my living. Why should I burden myself with plans?/ (From The Zen Works of Stonehouse) #105145 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:40 am Subject: notes about the three rounds, no 5. nilovg Dear Lukas, notes about the three rounds, no 5. N: One understands that paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa appearing now, have to be known and that these are different from concepts, a ?whole? of a person, of a thing, or of the body. One begins to understand that nothing is left of what one takes for a whole that lasts. When seeing appears there cannot be hearing at the same time, seeing must have fallen away when hearing appears. Thus, seeing arises just for a moment and then it is gone, and it is the same with hearing or thinking. This does not mean that pa??? has realized realities as impermanent and dukkha. But one begins to understand that there are only different namas and rupas appearing one at a time, and that they do not last, that they are impermanent and thus dukkha. Understanding the cause of dukkha: this is craving. Craving or clinging in daily life should be understood. We heard in India how deeply the clinging to self has been accumulated and we can consider this more. We cling to satipatthana and this can induce wrong practice, and we should learn at what moment this occurs, the test is always at this moment. When we have firm understanding of what the right Path is, we do not deviate anymore from it. Not deviating from the path is sacca ??na, firm understanding of the truth. The goal: when we consider that nibb?na is the end of craving and of all defilements, we can have already some understanding of this goal. When the Buddha was the Bodhisatta Sumedha, he saw: Even as evil exists, loveliness exists too, so as birth exists, the unborn also is to be desired. Even as a man fallen into filth, though seeing a brimming pool does not seek that pool, that is not a defect in the pool. So, though the pool of the Undying exists for the washing away the stains of the defilements, if one does not seek that pool, the defect is not in the pool of the Undying. (Chronicle of the Buddhas IIA, Account of Sumedha) Thus, he understood that there must also be an end to rebirth and an end to defilements. We may begin to see more the disadvantage of akusala, and come to understand that nibbana is the end of all defilements, although we do not know this through direct experience. ---------- Nina. #105146 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] seven years, seven days. nilovg Hi Howard, This discussion with Dieter and you is helpful, good points to consider. Op 11-feb-2010, om 20:36 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Of course, what is possible is not necessarily likely. Awakening, even > for those who understand and practice the Dhamma, is extremely > difficult > and relatively rare. And not understanding that can lead to > frustration and > even skepticism with regard to the Dhamma. Thus Nina is correct in > pointing > that out. However, pointing it out repeatedly, and with very little > balancing mention of the definite possibility of attaining the > ariyan stages > quickly with proper and sustained practice, may lead to > hopelessness and lack > of effort. So, all the facts need to be known, and we need to avoid > one-sidedness, it seems to me. > --------------------------------------------------------- > N: Hopelessness: this could be: I,I,I, cannot make it. Someone > thinks of self who cannot, who has no progress, is that not so? I > try to point this out to Lodewijk, when he says: it is all too > difficult. I like to point out that it is first of all important to > see that there is no self who can try to reach the goal. If one > does not see this, then whatever one does will lead to nowhere. Thus, what is there: the present reality to be understood. Sounds like a refrain, but it is true. Do not forget seeing now, hearing now, thinking now. Even thinking of the time when one reaches the goal is merely thinking, it is condiitoned to think in that way. > --------- > Dieter: The Buddha Dhamma is now available to us , waiting to be > understood and > penetrated as it was to the ancient disciples , who passed it to us. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: Yes. And also, even if no ariyan stage is reached in this > lifetime, > and even if there are no overt signs of "progress" in ourselves, with > concerted practice, wholesome change at a deep level of mind is > bound to be > occurring. ------- N: This I say to Lodewijk: be grateful for the understanding that results from hearing the Dhamma, even if the understanding is very little. Kh Sujin explained that one should not overreach one's capacities. Not wishing for more. So and so much one can understand today, that is all. One is ready for that amount, not for more. ------ Nina. #105147 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter nice hint , Colette ;-) with Metta Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: colette To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:04 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary Hi Ken and Dieter, Before the Horse can have a cart to be put before the horse needs A YOKE i.e. YOGA. toodles, colette #105148 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:25 pm Subject: Re: Accumulations and dwindling of akusala kamma patha kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Ken > > > I know the drill. You hit and run like one of those village-raiding dacoits you told us about. :-) > > > > But I will answer anyway, someone might be listening. > > I guess it's a case of the boy who cried wolf no longer being trusted, but you'll notice that there was no "hit" in my e-mail this time, I was truly interested in your point that accumulations might not be reduced in this lifetime. You might be right. > > Thanks for your comments, interesting. Indeed, the pot is filled drop by drop. OK, I'm leaving again now, but please note that it wasn't a raid this time. > ----------- A pleasure, Phil. Actually, when I said "hit and run" I meant "have your say on a subject and not stay around to hear arguments." I didn't mean you were dojo busting. Not this time, anyway. :-) I like the idea that accumulated tendencies stay pretty much the same for a whole lifetime. To my mind, that fits in nicely with understanding the present-moment reality the way it is, not expecting to change it. ------------------ > p.s I do love those daicots! Thanks for remembering. ------------------ How could I forget the first time I heard the word, dacoit? It's a good one whichever way you spell it. :-) Ken H #105149 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Burden hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: I just looked through the different mails and saw that khandha as a burden was discussed. I found a passgae in the co to the Itivuttaka, the Twos, on burden which may be of interest: < One who has laid down the burden (ohitabhaaro) : the three burdens are the burden of the khandhas, the burden of defilements and the burden of the accumulations. ..> But this may not add much to your interesting discussions. ---------- Han: Thank you very much, Nina. Yes, it helps me to understand the burdens better. I have noted the three burdens: (i) the burden of the khandhas, (ii) the burden of defilements and (iii) the burden of the accumulations. You wrote that these are from the Co to the Itivuttaka, the Twos. But I cannot locate the possible sutta for which this Co is written. Is it from Iti 44: Nibbaanadhaatu Sutta: The Nibbana-element? Respectfully, Han #105150 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:30 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau Hi Mike, ------- <. . .> M: > Exactly, "We" don't practise to "get something". Standard instructions. ------- It's nice to be in agreement. :-) Thanks for attaching the quotes from Ajahn Chah: --------------- > ""Letting go of past and future, look at the present. Then you will know the Dhamma. <. . .> -------------- I agree on the face of it, but I am wary of the direction to "look at the present." That can be telling us to "see the present,' or it can be telling us 'do something' - to 'try to see the present.' I'm probably not expressing this clearly. It's basically a difference between dhammas arising by conditions and something being made to happen, regardless of conditions. Actually, I am going to delete the long screed I have just typed, responding point by point to the quotes. In the long run the question is "Is A. Chah telling us to embark on a formal practice of some kind, or is he telling us that right now there are only dhammas - no self, no doer. When we understand that there are only dhammas we understand that there are no formal practices - never have been, never will be. Ken H #105151 From: Vince Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: The word or can create a misunderstanding: kamma or volition: > kamma, namely volition. Cetanaa. Kamma is cetanaa cetasika. As Howard > explained: the Buddha spoke about kamma and volition as being the > same. Here we speak about kusala kamma and akusala kamma. Volition > motivating deeds. also I talk trying to clear confusions. Buddha spoke about volition being the same of kamma from the perspective of present moment. In the present moment we know kamma as volition. However, kamma embraces also past and future. On the contrary it would be not kamma. Kamma = past(causes) -> (fruits)present(volition) -> (fruits)future. This is the kamma law. Regarding past and future (both being part of the kamma law), the eye should be regarded as kamma. Our present body is kamma, the fruit of actions of the past. In this present moment, our volition can cause a future body. As you knows. in the different existence planes there are different conformations of body and mind due to kamma. In fact, we can check this with the animals, then without need of beliefs or speculations. I put here your own words citing the Patthana about the arising of rupa because kamma and precisely by co-arising: "Vipakacitta and kiriyacitta can also produce rupa, and the accompanying cetana conditions citta, the other cetasikas and rupa by way of conascent- kamma-condition, sahajata kamma-paccaya. Seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions are vipakacittas which do not produce rupa, but the accompanying cetana conditions citta and the other cetasikas by way of conascent kamma-condition. When the patisandhi-citta arises the accompanying cetana conditions that citta, the other cetasikas and also the kamma-produced rupa which arises at the same time by way of conascent kamma-condition (Patthana, Faultless Triplet, Investigation Chapter, Kamma, 427, vii b)." http://www.zolag.co.uk/kamco.html > N: We have to be careful when speaking about kamma and its result. > Result is mental, vipaakacitta and physical: ruupas produced by > kamma, such as the sensebases, the eye, etc. > Eye could not be volition, it is ruupa, it does not know anything. I did not mention eye as volition. I said eye is kamma and Buddha don't talk figuratively. > Eyesense is ruupa that has to arise before there can be seeing. Ruupa > is still weak at its arising moment and cannot function as sensebase > or doorway yet. Ruupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta: > its arising moment, the moments of its presence and the moment of its > falling away. These moments are like a flash, so short. yes, it is the disjointed of the -self. But, What is the witness of all these dhammas?. (be not worried about time. Reply when you wish!) best wishes, Vince. #105152 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] seven years, seven days. upasaka_howard Thanks, Nina! :-) In a message dated 2/11/2010 2:56:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, This discussion with Dieter and you is helpful, good points to consider. ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #105153 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:58 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary truth_aerator Hello KenH, all, > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Mike, > ------- > <. . .> > M: > Exactly, "We" don't practise to "get something". Standard instructions. > ------- > > It's nice to be in agreement. :-) > > Thanks for attaching the quotes from Ajahn Chah: > > --------------- > > ""Letting go of past and future, look at the present. Then you will know the Dhamma. <. . .> > -------------- > > I agree on the face of it, but I am wary of the direction to "look at the present." That can be telling us to "see the present,' or it can be telling us 'do something' - to 'try to see the present.' > > I'm probably not expressing this clearly. It's basically a >difference between dhammas arising by conditions and something being >made to happen, regardless of conditions. If causes for panna, awakenining and so on, cannot be set - Then it is useless to follow any teacher, any method, any non-method and anything KS (or anyone) says. "Causes cannot be set"... What is the advantage of following "nothing can be done"? I do hope that what you mean is that there is no control ("Let there be wisdom, RIGHT NOW!"). True, and none of the teachers that I am aware of say that awakening can be made to arise through mere wishing or 'control'. But conditions, acculumations, paramis (whatever you call them) can be planted and cultivated. When there are enough conditions - wisdom arises. Plant isn't created. It is result of certain causes and conditions. With metta, Alex #105154 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana was :Notes about the three rounds, no 4. truth_aerator Dear Nina, KenH, Howard, Dieter, all, >, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Dieter, > Op 1-feb-2010, om 19:31 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > > > in particular:... pa??? is gradually developed from life to > > life..snip ..we do not know when they will arise. It takes many > > lives, but we should not be impatient.' > > > > this sounds to me very strange especially when we talk about > > satipatthana ... considering the Buddha's conclusive statement : > > > > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in > > this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for > > him: either gnosis right here & now, or - if there be any remnant > > of clinging-sustenance - non-return. > > "Let alone seven years. > ------- > N: I am catching up with old mails. You quoted Ven. Thanissaro who >stresses concentration and jhaana. Then about the gradual > development: seven years, etc. I have not read a lot of Ven. TB writings, but what I do want to say is that development of Jhana DOES require lots of wisdom. Ajahn Brahm who teaches Jhana, does teach a lot of satipatthana, and Jhana does require the use of wisdom. As Dhp says "There is no Jhana without wisdom". The problem with "wisdom" or what some people take to be wisdom, is that many people think that they are wise already. But all this wisdom is borrowed wisdom. Real wisdom leads to peace, calm and awakening. If a person speaks more wisdom than an Arahant Sariputta, and yet isn't a Stream Enterer, or cannot reach Jhana (or at least "access concentration"), then I wonder if it is real or worthwhile wisdom at all. Talk is one thing. But does one walk the walk? As to the path and its duration. I see two extremes: One is to say that awakening is so hard an unattainable that it will take Aeons for it to occur. I believe that this is Slandering the power of the Dhamma. This is an excuse to postpone the effort indefinately into the future. It is a clever trick by the Mara. Of course another extreme is to want Awakening today. While it was possible to become awakening in 12 hours (MN85 sutta, if I remember correctly) - it is not very likely today. Still, it is good to have a reasonable and challenging direction to follow. " A bhikkhu endowed with these five factors gaining the training from the Thus Gone One in the morning, for whatever cause sons of clansmen rightfully go forth homeless that highest end of the holy life, he here and now, knowing, realizing, will attain in the evening, or advised in the evening would realise the next morning." http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/085-bodhirajak\ umara-e1.html One day could be enough! At least in those times. So 7 days is quite a long period of time compared to 1/2 a day, or an instant as for some people like Bahiya. With metta, Alex #105155 From: Ken O Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear collette it will be endless to discuss what come first if you put in this way where the horse need the yoke, then someone will say, the horse needs to be properly fed and sheltered.??Sila arise?when there is the arisen of kusala cittas where?the pair of hiri and ottappa also arise.? The arising of kusala does mean the arising of panna.?? But the arising of panna will definitely mean?the arising of kusala with metta Ken O >? >Hi Ken and Dieter, > >Before the Horse can have a cart to be put before the horse needs A YOKE i.e. YOGA. > >toodles, >colette > #105156 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:55 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ptaus1 Hi Alex, > > pt: If at present moment there's intentional attempting to set up >conditions for future arising of panna, then that quite obviously >means that there's no panna at the present moment! > A: Intention by itself is not delusion. Intention can be skillful or unskilful. With wrong views or without wrong views. Here is a crux of the matter. pt: I agree with the above, but I think it's important to have in mind that "intention" as an un/wholesome cetasika is quite different from intentional attempting, willing and planning which are conventional designations for many processes of cittas that have many different intention cetasikas, wholesome and unwholesome. > A: Even arahants have intentions and can plan about what to do later that day. Are they deluded? They will and plan! pt: Here I think I have to object, because the example you raise can lead to confusing ultimate and conventional. Sure arahants plan and intend doing this or that, but, this is a conventional description of "intention" and what's happening in arahants in ultimate terms is different than in putthujanas. Let's try and consider the case of a putthujana in steps, someone will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong somewhere: 1. In ultimate terms, intention (cetana) as a cetasika does what? Afaik, it coordinates (directs) all the other cetasikas as they are involved with the object of citta. 2. What is the object of citta during insight when panna has arisen? Afaik, it is a dhamma, not a concept. Hence, in ultimate terms, during insight, intention is occupied also with a dhamma that is the object of citta in the present moment, not with a concept. 3. However, during a process of planning, or intending as it's meant in conventional speech, what is the object of citta(s)? Most probably it is a concept about the future (usually lot and lot of concepts), because that's the only way to plan and "intend". 4. In that case what is the cetasika of intention occupied with? It must be occupied with the same object as the citta - the concept. If it is a concept, then there's no panna at the present moment, because afaik panna of the insight level can only take a dhamma as the object. 5. If there's planning and intending to have more awareness in the future (than now), that means that there is conceiving of self in the present (inferior) mental state and wanting a future (superior) mental state (self) that has more panna for example. If there's wanting, that means there's attachment. If there's attachment,there's no panna at that moment. 6. So, the difference is that when arahats plan and intend, even though they too use concepts for this, the cittas which are involved are kiriya cittas - so there's no attachment. However, for putthujanas, when they plan and intend, the cittas involved are usually unwholesome. 7. That's why I'm trying to explain that if there is trying to will panna or something else to arise, that can only be done with the conventional "planning and intending" and these involve concepts and attachment, not panna. 8. As a side note: if I'm not mistaken, there are cases when citta can have a concept as the object, but still be a wholesome citta - this would be jhana citta, as well as moments of generosity and kindness without the amoha root, as well moments of metta with amoha root, but none of these would have panna of the insight level. While some of these certainly can arise sometimes during a process of conventional planning and intending (as in when wanting to make a gift) they don't really relate to our argument about trying to arouse panna, or some other dhamma to arise. > A: Read this! -> > "He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. This is the sixth cause, the sixth requisite condition... pt: I've already described my understanding of this passage in terms of akusala and kusala ways of "arousing, abandoning and taking on" to KenO in a recent post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/105099 I guess that wasn't clear enough as you bring it up again, so I'll try and address it here in a bit different way more relevant to you: You are interested in jhana development, right? So am I. When you meditate and your mind suddenly slips away from the meditation object and starts thinking about something completely unrelated, what happens then? At some moment, awareness just kicks in on its own, and the mind is again aware of the meditation object as if nothing happened. There was no willing and intending on my part - it just happens on its own. That's kusala awareness that just happens through conditions. That's kusala "arousing, abandoning and taking on" that happens simply thanks to the virtue of awareness. The more this happens, the more calm there is in meditation and at some point, the attention just stops slipping away from the object, even though there was nothing done on purpose and intentionally so to speak to make the attention stop skipping. Now, if I start trying to force awareness not to slip away and to make it stronger - it disappears. Why? Because, that trying takes the attention away from the present object of meditation and puts it onto imagining some future moment where my awareness is "stronger". But this is a new concept now - new object, not the old meditation object. Sure, concentration might increase but it is now intent on a different concept and that increases restlessness, as the mind is not anymore satisfied with the present (calm) situation - old meditation object. It wants something else now - the (concept of) future stronger awareness. Of course, this wanting is attachment, and awareness cannot coexist with attachment. This is akusala "arousing, abandoning and taking on" that happens due to absence of awareness and presence of some subtle attachment to a future result. So there's a conceiving of self in the prestn mental state and wanting to change that state (self) to a better one. > A: As to conditions for Panna, there is Panna sutta: pt: A wonderful sutta - it seems to describe the conditions for panna in conventional terms so we'd have to be careful and consider whether a particular conventional action that seems to correspond to the one described by the sutta is now (in our life) actually kusala or akusla. In ultimate terms I guess the sutta would mean that the more awareness arises on its own, the more the path will seem to progress along the conventionally described stations in the sutta. So in case of the excerpt you quote: > A: "Having heard the Dhamma, he [2] achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... pt: I guess in ultimate terms "seclusion" would refer to kusala seclusion - i.e. the moments when awareness has arisen and secluded the mind and the body from unwholesome factors at the time. If on the other hand we prefer to consider it as conventional seclusion (as in being alone), then we'd have to be careful whether it is kusala or akusala at the moment (in our life), because conventional being alone doesn't always result in awareness, while arising of awareness always results in secluding the mind and body from unwholesome factors at the time. I also wonder if anyone knows how would conditions for awareness (panna) be defined in ultimate terms? Surely (previous) panna itself is one of the conditions. Are there any other cetasikas that can be describes as conditions for panna? I think I once saw sanna being described as such in some circumstances. And then of course there are relational conditions of the patthana, which are a bit different animal... Best wishes pt #105157 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:41 am Subject: right effort mikenz rjkjp1 Dear Mike good quotes you gave below. Thus the way of development is about detachment- not about getting something. As A. Chah again puts it: http://www.buddhanet.net/bodhiny2.htm Questions & Answers with Ajahn Chah Question: I'm trying very hard in my practice but don't seem to be getting anywhere. Answer: This is very important. Don't try to get anywhere in the practice. The very desire to be free or to be enlightened will be the desire that prevents your freedom. You can try as hard as you wish, practise ardently night and day, but if it is still with the desire to achieve in mind, you will never find peace. The energy from this desire will be a cause for doubt and restlessness. No matter how long or how hard you practise, wisdom will not arise from desire. So, simply let go. Watch the mind and body mindfully but don't try to achieve anything. Don't cling even to the practice of enlightenment."" endquote Samma Samadhi,(right concentration), samma vayama (right effort) and samma sati (right mindfulness) are mental factors that always arise if samma ditthi (right view, panna) is present. However, samadhi and viriya (vayama ) effort, energy are factors that can arise not only without panna but also with akusala such as lobha (desire). So while it is easy to have effort and concentrate - it is another matter as to whether these factors are arising with panna. If we are not sure then why assume that they would be, knowing just how profound the path is. While the Buddha stesses effort or samadhi as factors of the path we know he meant those arising with panna, and thus it is panna, right view that we need to work on as this factor brings the correct effort and samadhi with it. No use having well developed effort or samadhi without panna as one is merely developing more attachment to some wrong path. robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Exactly, "We" don't practise to "get something". Standard instructions. > > Metta > Mike > -------- > > Ajahn Chah: http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Dhamma_Goes_Westward.php > "Letting go of past and future, look at the present. Then you will know the Dhamma. You may know the words spoken by various teachers, but you still do not know your own mind. The present moment is empty; look only at arising and ceasing of sankhara (formations). See that they are impermanent, unsatisfactory and empty of self. See that they really are thus. Then you will not be concerned with the past or the future. You will clearly understand that the past is gone and the future has not yet arrived. Contemplating in the present, you will realize that the present is the result of the past. The results of past actions are seen in the present." > > Ajahn Chah: http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Opening_Dhamma_Eye1.php > "Having tried to establish wholesome results in our practice, seeing them, we attach to them. This type of clinging comes from our wanting to get something from the practice. This is vipassanu, the wisdom of defilements (i.e. ''defiled wisdom''). Some people develop goodness and cling to it, they develop purity and cling to that, or they develop knowledge and cling to that. The action of clinging to that goodness or knowledge is vipassanu, infiltrating our practice." > #105158 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Burden nilovg Dear Han, Op 11-feb-2010, om 23:08 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > You wrote that these are from the Co to the Itivuttaka, the Twos. > But I cannot locate the possible sutta for which this Co is written. > Is it from Iti 44: Nibbaanadhaatu Sutta: The Nibbana-element? ------- N: Yes, it is. For those who have the Co in English: I, p. 407. ----- Nina. #105159 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana was :Notes about the three rounds, no 4. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 12-feb-2010, om 1:19 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > As to the path and its duration. I see two extremes: One is to say > that awakening is so hard an unattainable that it will take Aeons > for it to occur. I believe that this is Slandering the power of the > Dhamma. This is an excuse to postpone the effort indefinately into > the future. It is a clever trick by the Mara. ------- N: Not unattainable, but the amount of our defilements is so vast. We have to be realisitic. -------- > > A:Of course another extreme is to want Awakening today. While it > was possible to become awakening in 12 hours (MN85 sutta, if I > remember correctly) - it is not very likely today. Still, it is > good to have a reasonable and challenging direction to follow. ------ N: Not postponing the development of understanding of the realities that are right at hand: attachment now, doubt now. Seeing and then thinking on account of what is seen. We believe that we see people all the time but that is wrong. The difference between seeing and thinking can be understood. This is very urgent! ----------- Nina. #105160 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: explaining anatta nilovg Dear pt, You analyse very well the problems different people have in understanding anattaa. You are a good observer. Op 8-feb-2010, om 5:32 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > I mean all these are just wrong interpretations of what you are > saying, or what K.Sujin is saying for that matter, and yet I > constantly see people jumping to these wrong conclusions on this > and other forums. And of course, the argument always turns into the > extreme polarisation of eternalism vs anihilationsm (e.g. either I > make effort, or I make no effort, while the elusive non-purposeful > kusala effort remains beyond comprehension). > > Anyway, that's the statement of the problem as I see it. Now, I > wish I had a formula for solving the problem, but at the moment the > only thing I can think of is to stress the ultimate/conventional > terminology difference, because that's how the problem got solved > in my case at least (at least I hope it did :) I'll explain this in > a post to Mike in more detail so as not to repeat twice). If you > perhaps have some ideas about this, I'll be glad to hear about them. ------- N: It is of great help what Kh Sujin is doing: bringing people back to this moment, with practical examples. We cannot deny that there is seeing now, and did we do anything to make it arise? It arose because of its own conditions, it does not belong to anyone. We see some else suffering, in distress. There are different moments within us: moments of aversion, sadness, but also a sincere wish to relieve suffering. Akusala citta has its conditions for its arising and so has kusala citta. Nobody can control them, they have arisen already before we realise it. In this way more understanding of anattaa can be developed. JUst daily life. When we think of conceptual understanding, for me it complicates matters. Conceptual is understood differently by different people. It is true what you say about the mixture of ultimate and conceptual, I have heard this from others before. People stumble over this. But when we hear: we should develop understanding, it can be seen as an encouragement to do so. At the same time (hopefully) people have understood intellectually that it cannot be done on command. It is 'Western' to approach matters in a logical way. But it does not always work in practice. ------- Nina. #105161 From: si-la-nanda Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:24 pm Subject: Re: The Workings of Kamma ... by Pa Auk Sayadaw silananda_t Dear Dhammafarers, Some sharing to give you an excellent boost in your training for Release: The Workings of Kammaby Pa Auk Sayadaw mahakaruna, silananda #105162 From: Ken O Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear pt ? ? pt: I think I'm slowly starting to understand it in theory, but > not really in practice. KO: its ok, it is easy to be sway by different practise even if one understand conceptual anatta because sacca naana is not firm. it takes time for sacca naana to be firm and develop. So in this regard, I > believe that when you guys use such terms as "no control, no self that is > developing", you are trying to point towards the kusala way and warn against the > akusala way, no matter what is the conventional topic - meditation, effort, > development of the path, sila, etc. All these as conventional descriptions of > reality can ultimately happen in either kusala or akusala way. KO: Yes that is the danger the dinosuars in DSG advise against, trying to purposedly developing panna. Since all dhamma are anatta and arise naturally due to conditions, we should develop in the natural way. That is considering dhamma in listening, studying and investigating. When panna is keener, it would appear more often. Wen that happen, viriya which arise with panna will keep striving because panna knows the danger and pain of samasara. There is no need to purposedly strive, it will arise and keep striving as long as panna arise to understand the characteristic of dhamma. That's as > I understand it in theory. In practice, sure, sometimes I can notice how > awareness kicks in all of its own, and then disappears in exactly the same way, > but most of the time I'm in the mode "ok, so what should I do right now?" which > means there's conceiving of self in certain present mental qualities and > desiring different mental qualities than what they are now. But, that's how > thing are currently. KO: Citta arise and falls very fast. Yes many times when awareness arise and understand the characteristic of reality as not self, it falls away very fast and leave us "nothing to do" afterward. From that onward, dont intentionally be aware because it could condition lobha. Just leave it and do other thing or read a sutta or listen to dhamma or watch a TV. Whatever we do, dont do it purposedly because it could condition lobha. With metta Ken O #105163 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana was :Notes about the three rounds, no 4. truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 12-feb-2010, om 1:19 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > > As to the path and its duration. I see two extremes: One is to say > > that awakening is so hard an unattainable that it will take Aeons > > for it to occur. I believe that this is Slandering the power of the > > Dhamma. This is an excuse to postpone the effort indefinately into > > the future. It is a clever trick by the Mara. > ------- > N: Not unattainable, but the amount of our defilements is so vast. >We have to be realisitic. > -------- > Angulimala has murdered 999 people. He still became an Arahant. I do not think that any of us has murdered 1 person, let alone 999. If he could do it, so can we. In the suttas the path to stream entry (saddhanusarin and dhammanusarin) are not so difficult to attain for motivated Buddhist. From there one would die as stream-enterer at least. So it is possible for many to end samsara within 7 lives. If anyone interested, we can talk about it. With metta, Alex #105164 From: Ken O Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ashkenn2k Dear pt . > J: Pariyatti means the correct intellectual understanding of the matters necessary for satipatthana. Matters such as, for example, what is meant by the term 'dhammas' as used by the Buddha, their characteristics, how they differ from concepts, what can be the object of awareness, the significance of the fact of dhammas (including dhammas such as sati and viriya) being 'not-self', and so on. > > Patipatti means any moment of direct awareness of a dhamma. If there occur naturally moments of awareness of, for example, currently arising visible object as just visible object (as distinct from seeing consciousness), this would be patipadaa. pt: Isn't this already an arising of a stage of insight (at least the nama-rupa stage)? If it is, then at which of the insight stages does pativedha (as you desribe it below) officially begin? KO:??Just wish to add on to this topic.? ?The 1st stage of vipassana, one able to distinguish the different characteristic of nama and rupa but not as individual dhamma.? Only at 4th stage of vipassana would there be direct understanding of nama and rupa, one characteristic at a time.? One able to differentiate what is visible object and what is visible citta.? IMHO that would be patipatti.??As for pativedha, to me it could?be at stream entrant level.?? Pse see survey of paramattha dhamma chapter 30, for the different stages of vipassana and its description. With metta Ken O #105165 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:23 pm Subject: Re: explaining anatta & meditation truth_aerator Dear Nina, Pt, all, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom : > > Dear pt, > You analyse very well the problems different people have in > understanding anattaa. You are a good observer. > Op 8-feb-2010, om 5:32 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > > > I mean all these are just wrong interpretations of what you are > > saying, or what K.Sujin is saying for that matter, and yet I > > constantly see people jumping to these wrong conclusions on this > > and other forums. And of course, the argument always turns into the > > extreme polarisation of eternalism vs anihilationsm (e.g. either I > > make effort, or I make no effort, while the elusive non-purposeful > > kusala effort remains beyond comprehension). > > > > Anyway, that's the statement of the problem as I see it. Now, I > > wish I had a formula for solving the problem, but at the moment the > > only thing I can think of is to stress the ultimate/conventional > > terminology difference, because that's how the problem got solved > > in my case at least (at least I hope it did :) I'll explain this in > > a post to Mike in more detail so as not to repeat twice). If you > > perhaps have some ideas about this, I'll be glad to hear about them. > ------- > N: It is of great help what Kh Sujin is doing: bringing people back > to this moment, with practical examples. We cannot deny that there is > seeing now, and did we do anything to make it arise? It arose because > of its own conditions, it does not belong to anyone. We see some else > suffering, in distress. There are different moments within us: > moments of aversion, sadness, but also a sincere wish to relieve > suffering. Akusala citta has its conditions for its arising and so > has kusala citta. Nobody can control them, they have arisen already > before we realise it. > In this way more understanding of anattaa can be developed. JUst > daily life. When we think of conceptual understanding, for me it > complicates matters. Conceptual is understood differently by > different people. > It is true what you say about the mixture of ultimate and conceptual, > I have heard this from others before. People stumble over this. But > when we hear: we should develop understanding, it can be seen as an > encouragement to do so. At the same time (hopefully) people have > understood intellectually that it cannot be done on command. > It is 'Western' to approach matters in a logical way. But it does not > always work in practice. > > ------- > Nina. You and Pt have said it all very well. It is true that no Atta exists that can control what happens. All things happen due to causes and conditions. The phrases "develop understanding" better be understood as an encouragement. No "one" can control the arising of understanding. Sure. What can be done is planting the causes, though none of this is done by any Self. It is all conditioned. But it *does* happen. Awakening will not occur if, speaking conventionally, "one does not do anything". In meditation it is the same. No 'one' can "force" or "control" anything to arise or stop something arisen from being arisen. However certain conditions can be planted that will result in spontaneous and un-willed by any Self, certain states to arise. As to Sati, a very important cetasika. Like other qualities, sati can be of many degrees. Giving Dana to a pujjhana vs a Buddha, are both acts of Dana - however one act is incalculably more kusala than another. Stealing $10 vs $10 Billion are both akusala action of stealing. However the kammic result will be of different degrees. Similar case is with sati. Sati in or after 4th Jhana is of a different quality and strength then everyday sati. It is like comparing the illumination of the super powered flashlight vs candle light. Another simile is trying to dig the earth with an excavator vs with a spoon. In the suttas it is said that sati is purified in 4th Jhana. So Jhanic states do give a powerful boost to Sati. And to reach Jhana one must develop enough panna as well, so it is not a "dumb way" or "useless" path. The Bliss of Jhana is due to letting go of suffering. The experience of Jhana experientially show the 4NT, a very important thing to see. One not just reads the theory, but actually experiences it, and learns important skills. With metta, Alex #105166 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] seven years, seven days. moellerdieter Hi Howard and Nina, like Nina I appreciate your comment ;-) you wrote: (D: Yes , a long way -for all - until the Buddha appeared in the world after re-discovering the ancient path like the Buddhas before him ...taking aeons... -------------------------------------------------------- Dieter, I think this is a very important point. With the Dhamma not present in the world for aeons, only a rare paccekabuddha might arise. But with the Dhamma reintroduced, practice leading to full awakening within a single lifetime, even within a single week, becomes possible to more than a few. Of course, what is possible is not necessarily likely. Awakening, even for those who understand and practice the Dhamma, is extremely difficult and relatively rare. And not understanding that can lead to frustration and even skepticism with regard to the Dhamma. Thus Nina is correct in pointing that out. D: I agree in respect to us householders .. concerning the Bhikkhus we really don't know.. H: However, pointing it out repeatedly, and with very little balancing mention of the definite possibility of attaining the ariyan stages quickly with proper and sustained practice, may lead to hopelessness and lack of effort. So, all the facts need to be known, and we need to avoid one-sidedness, it seems to me. D: well said .. H: ( D: The Buddha Dhamma is now available to us , waiting to be understood and penetrated as it was to the ancient disciples , who passed it to us.) ---------------------------------------------------------- Yes. And also, even if no ariyan stage is reached in this lifetime, and even if there are no overt signs of "progress" in ourselves, with concerted practice, wholesome change at a deep level of mind is bound to be occurring. Nothing comes from nothing, but whether sooner or later, with proper practice the state of effortless freedom can be attained. D: yes, besides the perspectives of rebirths in different realms for the better or the worse , there is the possibility of obtaining the Dhamma eye SN 13.1Nakhasikha Sutta: The Tip of the Fingernail translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu © 1999–2010 I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then the Blessed One, picking up a little bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monks, "What do you think, monks? Which is greater: the little bit of dust I have picked up with the tip of my fingernail, or the great earth?" "The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth — this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail — when compared with the great earth." "In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining lifetimes is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye." H: (This "effortless freedom" terminology, BTW, makes me think of the "Lilies of the field" metaphor and of the Zen quote with which I end this post.) D: the nice Zen poem ends with : 'Why should I burden myself with plans?' which may be compared with the canonical : why should one carry the raft (as a simile of the Dhamma) further when the other shore has been reached .. unfortunately some may have missed that the way to effortless is paved with effort .. ;-) with Metta Dieter #105167 From: "Mike" Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:43 pm Subject: Re: right effort mikenz mikenz66 Dear Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Dear Mike > good quotes you gave below. > > Thus the way of development is about detachment- not about getting something. ... Yes, this is why I like discussing these things. To be reminded of this. It's very easy to lose sight of. Metta Mike #105168 From: "Buddy" Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:08 pm Subject: Re: "Hinayana" in the Kanjur? budla Really? No one has a clue? Does anyone know for sure that the list of mainstream suttas in the Kanjur has not been published? The "Hinayana" texts are interpreted in terms of the Mahayana and Vajrayana texts that make up the rest of the Canon (just the reverse how I would treat them), so perhaps they are considered so insignificant that they are not worth citeing? #105169 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Ken O and Colette , you wrote: 'it will be endless to discuss what come first if you put in this way where the horse need the yoke, then someone will say, the horse needs to be properly fed and sheltered. Sila arise when there is the arisen of kusala cittas where the pair of hiri and ottappa also arise. The arising of kusala does mean the arising of panna. But the arising of panna will definitely mean the arising of kusala' D: the horse has been used as a simile quite often by the Buddha .. perhaps a few quotations maybe useful.. see below for a start with Metta Dieter A.N. IV 111 + 113 Trans. Sister Upalavanna A?guttara Nik?ya 012. Kesivaggo ? To Kesi 1. Kesisutta? ?To Kesi 012.01. ?hen Kesi the trainer of horses, to be trained approached The Blessed One, worshipped and sat on a side. The Blessed One said thus to him: Kesi, you are skilled in training horses, how do you train horses? Venerable sir, I train horses kindly, roughly, and I train horses kindly and roughly. Kesi, when the horse to be tamed is not tamed when trained kindly, roughly and also kindly and roughly, what do you do to it? Venerable sir, when the horse to be tamed is not tamed when trained kindly, roughly and also kindly and roughly, I kill it. What is the reason? May there be no blame for the clan of the master. Venerable sir, The Blessed One is the incomparable tamer of those to be tamed. How does The Blessed One tame those to be tamed? Kesi, I train those to be tamed kindly, roughly and train them kindly and roughly. Kesi, I train them kindly thus. This is bodily good conduct, these are the results for bodily good conduct. This is verbal good conduct, these the results for verbal good conduct. This is mental good conduct, these the results for mental good conduct, thus its heavenly and thus its human. Kesi, I train them roughly thus. This is bodily evil conduct, these are the results for bodily evil conduct. This is verbal evil conduct, these are the results for verbal evil conduct. This is mental evil conduct, these are the results for mental evil conduct, thus its hellish and thus its the sphere of beasts and ghosts. Kesi, I train them kindly and harshly thus. This is bodily good conduct, these the results for bodily good conduct. This is bodily evil conduct and these the results for bodily evil conduct This is verbal good conduct, these the results for verbal good conduct. This is verbal evil conduct, these the results for evil verbal conduct. This is mental good conduct, these the results for mental good conduct. This is mental evil conduct, these the results for mental evil conduct. Thus its heavenly and human and hellish in the spheres of beasts and ghosts. Venerable sir, when those to be tamed are not tamed when trained kindly, roughly and also kindly and roughly, what does The Blessed One do to them? Kesi, when those to be tamed do not get tamed when trained kindly, harshly and also kindly and harshly, I kill them. Venerable sir, it is not suitable for The Blessed One to destroy living things, yet The Blessed One says I kill them. Kesi, it's true, destroying living things is not suitable for the Thus Gone One, if those to be tamed do not tame, when trained kindly, harshly and also kindly and harshly, the Thus Gone One does not think they should be tolerated and adised and wise co-associates in the holy life do not think they should be tolerated and advised. Kesi, it is death in the noble ones' discipline when the Thus Gone and the wise co-associates in the holy life do not think to tolerate and advise. Venerable sir, isn't it destruction in the well going path, when the Thus Gone One and the wise co-associates in the holy life do not thik to tolerate and advise them. Venerable sir, I am a lay disciple who has taken refuge from today until life lasts. 3. Patodasutta? ? The driving stick 012.03. Bhikkhus, these four thoroughbred horses are evident in the world. What four? Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred horse seeing the case of the whip is frightened and becomes remorseful. What training will the trainer give me today, how will I react to it? Bhikkhus, there is, such a kind of thoroughbred horse. This is the first thoroughbred horse evident in the world. Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred horse, seeing the case of the whip is not frightened and does not become remorseful. With a touch on his back he is frightened and becomes remorseful. What training will the trainer give me today, how will I react to it? Bhikkhus, there is, such a kind of thoroughbred horse. This is the second thoroughbred horse evident in the world. Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred horse, is neither frightened seeing the case of the whip, nor with a touch on his back, he is frightened and becomes remorseful, when he feels near the flesh. What training will the trainer give me today, how will I react to it? Bhikkhus, there is, such a kind of thoroughbred horse. This is the third thoroughbred horse evident in the world. Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred horse, is neither frightened seeing the case of the whip, nor with a touch on his back, or even feeling the touch near his flesh, he is frightened and becomes remorseful, when he feels it at the bones. What training will the trainer give me today, how will I react to it? Bhikkhus, there is, such a kind of thoroughbred horse. This is the fourth thoroughbred horse evident in the world. Bhikkhus, these four thoroughbred horses are evident in the world. Bhikkhus, in the same manner there are four thoroughbred men evident in the world. What four? Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred man hears, in such and such a village or hamlet, a woman or man is either gravely ill or is dead and he becomes frightened and remorseful. Then he wisely arouses effort to dispel, realizes the highest truth with the body and penetratingly sees it with wisdom. Bhikkhus, he is like the first thoroughbred horse, who is frightened and remorseful seeing the case of the whip. This is the first thoroughbred man evident in the world. Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred man does not hear, in such and such a village or hamlet, a woman or man is either gravely ill or is dead, but he himself sees a woman or man either gravely ill or dead he is frightened and remorseful on account of that Then he wisely arouses effort to dispel, realizes the highest truth with the body and penetratingly sees it with wisdom. Bhikk hus, he is like the second thoroughbred horse, who is frightened and remorseful with a touch on his back. This is the second thoroughbred man evident in the world. Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred man does not hear, in such and such a village or hamlet, a woman or man is either gravely ill or is dead, does not see a woman or man either gravely ill or dead. But he himself sees a blood relation gravely ill or dead and is frightened and remorseful on account of that Then he wisely arouses effort to dispel, realizes the highest truth with the body and penetratingly sees it with wisdom. Bhikkhus, he is like the third thoroughbred horse, who is frightened and remorseful with a feeling that touches his flesh. This is the third thoroughbred man evident in the world. Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred man does not hear, in such and such a village or hamlet, a woman or man is either gravely ill or is dead, does not see a woman or man either gravely ill or dead. Does not see a blood relation gravely ill or dead but is touched by sever bodily pain rough and sharp and is frightened and remorseful on account of that Then he wisely arouses effort to dispel, realizes the highest truth with the body and penetratingly sees it with wisdom. Bhikkhus, he is like the fourth thoroughbred horse, who is frightened and remorseful with a feeling that touches his bones. This is the fourth thoroughbred man evident in the world. Bhikkhus, these four thoroughbred persons are evident in the world. #105170 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana was :Notes about the three rounds, no 4. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 12-feb-2010, om 18:49 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > In the suttas the path to stream entry (saddhanusarin and > dhammanusarin) are not so difficult to attain for motivated Buddhist. > From there one would die as stream-enterer at least. So it is > possible for many to end samsara within 7 lives. -------- N: I would rather pay attention to the stages of insight that have to precede being a streamenterer, those are difficult enough. Even the first stage of tender insight: directly knowing the difference between nama and rupa when they appear. Through insight the difference between sense-door process and mind-door process will be known, but cittas pass so rapidly. Not an easy thing. Through insight the difference betyween citta and cetasikas will be known. They arise together, are closely connected, and pa~n~naa has to be very keen in order to know this. ------ Nina. #105171 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: right effort mikenz nilovg Dear Mike, Robert, Op 12-feb-2010, om 20:43 heeft Mike het volgende geschreven: > Thus the way of development is about detachment- not about getting > something. > ... > > Yes, this is why I like discussing these things. To be reminded of > this. It's very easy to lose sight of. ------ N: I agree, Mike. Let us remind each other then, we need this. ---- Nina. #105172 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 12-feb-2010, om 19:21 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Only at 4th stage of vipassana would there be direct understanding > of nama and rupa, one characteristic at a time. One able to > differentiate what is visible object and what is visible citta. > IMHO that would be patipatti. As for pativedha, to me it could be > at stream entrant level. ------ N: I know what you mean, at that stage the arising and falling away of one nama and one rupa at a time can be realised. But I would think that at the first stage of tender insight one nama and one rupa at a time is realized, since their different characteristics are distinquished. But their arising and falling away is not yet known. Visible citta, I think you mean seeing. Pativedha, I understood it is beginning already at the stages of insight. There are degrees of pa.tivedha. Nina. #105173 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Hinayana" in the Kanjur? nilovg Dear Buddy, Sorry, I think no one answered. We discuss here the Pali Tipitaka, including the Abhidhamma. You know what. Try: Pali@yahoogroups.com. There are several members who are knowledgeable in Mahayana. Or do you want to stay with us and learn more about what we are doing here; discussing life, understanding in detail about the different mental moments that change all the time? It depends on your inclination. Nina. Op 12-feb-2010, om 20:08 heeft Buddy het volgende geschreven: > Really? No one has a clue? #105174 From: "Mike" Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Hinayana" in the Kanjur? mikenz66 Hi Buddy, As Nina says, this is really not a site you will find a good answer to such questions. The discussion sites: http://dharmawheel.net/ (Mahayana) http://dhammawheel.com/ (Theravada) do have members who are well versed in various aspects of Mahyana, and how they relate to Theravada ideas. Here are some threads that you might start with: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2742 http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3166 http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1819 Metta Mike #105175 From: "Buddy" Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Hinayana" in the Kanjur? budla Hi Mike - Thanks for the sites. I did a pretty good web search before posting the question, but I will explore these sites in particular. Buddy --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Hi Buddy, > > As Nina says, this is really not a site you will find a good answer to such questions. > > The discussion sites: > http://dharmawheel.net/ (Mahayana) > http://dhammawheel.com/ (Theravada) > do have members who are well versed in various aspects of Mahyana, and how they relate to Theravada ideas. > > Here are some threads that you might start with: > http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2742 > http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3166 > http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1819 > > Metta > Mike > #105176 From: "Buddy" Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Hinayana" in the Kanjur? budla Thanks, Nina - Actually I subscribe to both groups, and mostly just read, as I have more to learn than to write. I will try posting my question in the Pali group. I am less than a beginner with the Abhidhamma. I know what it is, but have not read any of it - just references in other material. I had not know of your work until I started reading this group, and was yesterday trying to decide which book of yours to begin with. I was thinking "Abhidhamma in Daily Life." Or should I start with another one? Buddy --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Buddy, > Sorry, I think no one answered. We discuss here the Pali Tipitaka, > including the Abhidhamma. > You know what. Try: Pali@yahoogroups.com There are several members > who are knowledgeable in Mahayana. > Or do you want to stay with us and learn more about what we are > doing here; discussing life, understanding in detail about the > different mental moments that change all the time? It depends on your > inclination. > Nina. #105177 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] seven years, seven days. upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 2/12/2010 1:49:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: D: the nice Zen poem ends with : 'Why should I burden myself with plans?' which may be compared with the canonical : why should one carry the raft (as a simile of the Dhamma) further when the other shore has been reached .. unfortunately some may have missed that the way to effortless is paved with effort .. ;-) ============================ I quite agree. The Zen hermit who wrote the poem was well along the way. Much right effort came first. With metta, Howard Right Effort "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into _right view_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-ditthi/index.html) : This is one's right effort... "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into _right resolve_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-sankappo/index.htm\ l) : This is one's right effort... "One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into _right speech_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/index.html) : This is one's right effort... "One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into _right action_ (http:/ /www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-kammanto/index.html) : This is one's right effort... "One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter into _right livelihood_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-ajivo/index.htm l) : This is one's right effort." — _MN 117_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html) #105178 From: han tun Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Burden hantun1 Dear Nina and others, Thank you very much, Nina. Now I can locate the sutta, and I have the Pali text for the Co of this sutta, which I print below. Those who have the Co in English, I would be grateful if it can be shared with me. If it is to be typed, and cannot type the whole text, just the paragraph containing the three burdens will be appreciated. 7. Nibbaanadhaatusuttava.n.nanaa 44. Sattame dvemaati dve imaa. Vaana.m vuccati ta.nhaa, nikkhanta.m vaanato, natthi vaa ettha vaana.m, imasmi.m vaa adhigate vaanassa abhaavoti nibbaana.m, tadeva nissattanijjiiva.t.thena sabhaavadhaara.na.t.thena ca dhaatuuti nibbaanadhaatu. Yadipi tassaa paramatthato bhedo natthi , pariyaayena pana pa~n~naayatiiti ta.m pariyaayabheda.m sandhaaya ‘‘dvemaa, bhikkhave, nibbaanadhaatuyo’’ti vatvaa yathaadhippetappabheda.m dassetu.m ‘‘saupaadisesaa’’tiaadi vutta.m. Tattha ta.nhaadiihi phalabhaavena upaadiiyatiiti upaadi, khandhapa~ncaka.m. Upaadiyeva sesoti upaadiseso, saha upaadisesenaati saupaadisesaa, tadabhaavato anupaadisesaa. Arahanti aarakakileso, duurakilesoti attho. Vutta~nheta.m bhagavataa – ‘‘Katha~nca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu araha.m hoti, aarakaassa honti paapakaa akusalaa dhammaa, sa.mkilesikaa ponobbhavikaa, sadaraa dukkhavipaakaa, aayati.m jaatijaraamara.niyaa. Eva.m kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu araha.m hotii’’ti (ma. ni. 1.434). Khii.naasavoti kaamaasavaadayo cattaaropi aasavaa arahato khii.naa samucchinnaa pahiinaa pa.tippassaddhaa abhabbuppattikaa ~naa.nagginaa da.d.dhaati khii.naasavo. Vusitavaati garusa.mvaasepi ariyamaggepi dasasu ariyavaasesupi vasi parivasi parivu.t.tho vu.t.thavaaso ci.n.nacara.noti vusitavaa. Katakara.niiyoti puthujjanakalyaa.naka.m upaadaaya satta sekhaa catuuhi maggehi kara.niiya.m karonti naama, khii.naasavassa sabbakara.niiyaani kataani pariyositaani, natthi uttari.m kara.niiya.m dukkhakkhayaadhigamaayaati katakara.niiyo. Vuttampi ceta.m – ‘‘Tassa sammaa vimuttassa, santacittassa bhikkhuno; Katassa pa.ticayo natthi, kara.niiya.m na vijjatii’’ti. (a. ni. 6.55; mahaava. 244); Ohitabhaaroti tayo bhaaraa – khandhabhaaro, kilesabhaaro, abhisa"nkhaarabhaaroti. Tassime tayopi bhaaraa ohitaa oropitaa nikkhittaa paatitaati ohitabhaaro. Anuppattasadatthoti anuppatto sadattha.m, sakatthanti vutta.m hoti, kakaarassa dakaaro kato. Anuppatto sadattho etenaati anuppattasadattho, sadatthoti ca arahatta.m veditabba.m. Ta~nhi attupanibandha.t.thena attano avijahana.t.thena attano paramatthena ca attano atthattaa sakattho hoti. Parikkhii.nabhavasa.myojanoti kaamaraagasa.myojana.m, pa.tighasa.myojana.m, maanadi.t.thivicikicchaasiilabbataparaamaasabhavaraagaissaamacchariyaavijjaasa.m\ yojananti imaani satte bhavesu. Bhava.m vaa bhavena sa.myojenti upanibandhantiiti bhavasa.myojanaani naama. Taani arahato parikkhii.naani, pahiinaani, ~naa.nagginaa, da.d.dhaaniiti parikkhii.nabhavasa.myojano. Sammada~n~naa vimuttoti ettha sammada~n~naati sammaa a~n~naaya, ida.m vutta.m hoti – khandhaana.m khandha.t.tha.m, aayatanaana.m aayatana.t.tha.m, dhaatuuna.m su~n~na.t.tha.m, dukkhassa pii.lana.t.tha.m, samudayassa pabhava.t.tha.m, nirodhassa santa.t.tha.m, maggassa dassana.t.tha.m ‘‘sabbe sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa’’ti evamaadibheda.m vaa sammaa yathaabhuuta.m a~n~naaya jaanitvaa tiirayitvaa tulayitvaa vibhaavetvaa vibhuuta.m katvaa. Vimuttoti dve vimuttiyo cittassa ca vimutti nibbaana~nca. Arahaa hi sabbakilesehi vimuttattaa cittavimuttiyaapi vimutto, nibbaanepi vimuttoti. Tena vutta.m ‘‘sammada~n~naa vimutto’’ti. Tassa ti.t.thanteva pa~ncindriyaaniiti tassa arahato carimabhavahetubhuuta.m kamma.m yaava na khiiyati, taava ti.t.thantiyeva cakkhaadiini pa~ncindriyaani. Avighaatattaati anuppaadanirodhavasena aniruddhattaa. Manaapaamanaapanti i.t.thaani.t.tha.m ruupaadigocara.m. Paccanubhotiiti vindati pa.tilabhati. Sukhadukkha.m pa.tisa.mvedetiiti vipaakabhuuta.m sukha~nca dukkha~nca pa.tisa.mvedeti tehi dvaarehi pa.tilabhati. Ettaavataa upaadisesa.m dassetvaa idaani saupaadisesa.m nibbaanadhaatu.m dassetu.m ‘‘tassa yo’’tiaadi vutta.m. Tattha tassaati tassa saupaadisesassa sato arahato. Yo raagakkhayoti raagassa khayo khii.naakaaro abhaavo accantamanuppaado. Esa nayo sesesupi. Ettaavataa raagaadikkhayo saupaadisesaa nibbaanadhaatuuti dassita.m hoti. Idhevaati imasmi.myeva attabhaave. Sabbavedayitaaniiti sukhaadayo sabbaa abyaakatavedanaa, kusalaakusalavedanaa pana pubbeyeva pahiinaati. Anabhinanditaaniiti ta.nhaadiihi na abhinanditaani. Siitibhavissantiiti accantavuupasamena sa"nkhaaradarathapa.tippassaddhiyaa siitalii bhavissanti, appa.tisandhikanirodhena nirujjhissantiiti attho. Na kevala.m vedayitaaniyeva, sabbepi pana khii.naasavasantaane pa~ncakkhandhaa nirujjhissanti, vedayitasiisena desanaa kataa. Gaathaasu cakkhumataati buddhacakkhu, dhammacakkhu, dibbacakkhu, pa~n~naacakkhu, samantacakkhuuti pa~ncahi cakkhuuhi cakkhumataa. Anissitenaati ta.nhaadi.t.thinissayavasena ka~nci dhamma.m anissitena, raagabandhanaadiihi vaa abandhena. Taadinaati cha.la"ngupekkhaavasena sabbattha i.t.thaadiisu ekasabhaavataasa"nkhaatena taadilakkha.nena taadinaa. Di.t.thadhammikaati imasmi.m attabhaave bhavaa vattamaanaa. Bhavanettisa"nkhayaati bhavanettiyaa ta.nhaaya parikkhayaa. Samparaayikaati samparaaye khandhabhedato parabhaage bhavaa. Yamhiiti yasmi.m anupaadisesanibbaane. Bhavaaniiti li"ngavipallaasena vutta.m, upapattibhavaa sabbaso anavasesaa nirujjhanti, na pavattanti. Teti te eva.m vimuttacittaa. Dhammasaaraadhigamaati vimuttisaarattaa imassa dhammavinayassa, dhammesu saarabhuutassa arahattassa adhigamanato. Khayeti raagaadikkhayabhuute nibbaane rataa abhirataa. Atha vaa niccabhaavato se.t.thabhaavato ca dhammesu saaranti dhammasaara.m, nibbaana.m. Vutta~nheta.m ‘‘viraago se.t.tho dhammaana.m (dha. pa. 273), viraago tesa.m aggamakkhaayatii’’ti (itivu. 90; a. ni. 4.34) ca. Tassa dhammasaarassa adhigamahetu khaye sabbasa"nkhaaraparikkhaye anupaadisesanibbaane rataa. Paha.msuuti pajahi.msu. Teti nipaatamatta.m. Sesa.m vuttanayameva. Sattamasuttava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. ---------------- Respectfully, Han #105179 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:00 am Subject: Withdrawal Wins! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Withdrawal is the 3rd Mental Perfection: Withdrawal is Removal of Misery Withdrawal is Extraction of Disease. Withdrawal is Pulling out the splinter of Pain. Withdrawal is Retraction from Danger. Withdrawal is Renunciation of Ill. Withdrawal is Letting Go of what is Burning. Withdrawal is Turning Away from what is Sorrow. Withdrawal is Seclusion from what is Grief. Withdrawal is Clearing of Captivating Illusions. Withdrawal is Waking Up from Enthralling Trance. Withdrawal is Freedom from Enslaving Addiction. Withdrawal is Protection from what is Entrapping. Withdrawal is Giving Up what is Detrimental. Withdrawal is Discharge of what is Infested. Withdrawal is Breaking out of the Prison. Withdrawal is Release from all Suffering... "Back to Nature" by Robert Storm Petersen . (1882 ? 1949) The Withdrawn, as the man newly freed from prison does not at all wish himself back in prison! The Basket of Conduct, Cariyapitaka Infatuated with lust, impassioned and obsessed, they are caught in their own self-created net, like a spider, which spins it's own web! Cutting through, the Noble Friend withdraw and go free, Without longing, without greed, leaving all misery behind. Dhammapada 347 The Bodhisatta as the King Culasutasoma gave up his whole kingdom. Knowing withdrawal to be an advantageous victory, he remembered: A mighty kingdom I possessed, as if it was dropped into my hands... Yet all this tantalizing luxury, I let fall and go without any even slight trace of longing or clinging. This was my perfection of Withdrawal... Jataka no. 525 Lust, I say, is a great flood, a whirlpool sucking one down, a constant yearning, seeking a hold, continually active, and difficult to cross is such morass of sense and sensual desire... A sage does not deviate from the good, but remains steady! A recluse stands on firm ground, when solitarily secluded: When withdrawn from all, truly he is calmed and silenced! Having directly touched the Dhamma, he is independent! He behaves right and does not envy anyone anywhere... He who has left behind all pleasure arised from sensing, an attachment difficult to cut, is freed of both depression and longing, since he has cut across this great flood, and is released. Sutta Nip ata IV.15 Any being, that cools down all desires and greedy lusts, by being alert and ever aware of the inherent danger, by directing attention only to the disgusting aspects of all phenomena, such one withdraw from all craving and thereby wears down and breaks the bars of the inner prison. Dhammapada 350 If one gains an infinite ease by leaving a minor pleasure, the clever one would swap the luminous for what is a trifling sense delight, by withdrawing from this trivial banal boredom. Dhammapada 290 The one who has reached the sublime end all perfected, is fearless, freed of craving, desireless and detached.. Such one has broken the chains of being and is certainly withdrawing into the final phase, wearing his last frame... Dhammapada 351 Prince Siddhattha Gotama reflected thus: "Why do I, being subject to birth, decay, disease, death, sorrow and defilement, thus search after things of the same nature. What if I, who am subject to things of such nature, realize their disadvantages and seek the unattained and unsurpassed, perfect security: Nibbana!" "Cramped and confined is the household life, a den of dust, but the life of the homeless is in the free open air of heaven! Hard is it for him who abides at home to live the Holy Life as it should be lived, in all its true perfection, and in all its purity." "The household life is a cramped way, choked with dust. To leave it, is like coming out into the free space of open air! It is not easy for one, who lives at home, to live the Noble life completely perfect and pure, bright as mother-of-pearl. Surely I will now shave off my hair and go forth into homelessness." Only Misery Arises. Only Misery Ceases. Nothing good is thus lost by withdrawing from it all... Nothing is Worth Clinging to! <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #105180 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ashkenn2k Dear Nina Thanks Nina for pointing our my mistake. You are right, I went to read again the book. The first stage of vipassana, one could understand one characteristic at a time. As for patipatti and pativeda, I went to look at the useful post: In msg #75672 Proficiency in elements and in understanding them”. The Commentary to this sutta, the “Sumaògala Vilåsiní”, explains: “Proficiency in elements”. Eighteen elements, the element of eye, etc. ...the element of mind-consciousness. When it is said that there is with regard to these elements proficiency in the elements, understanding of them, it means that there is defining of the characteristics of these eighteen elements, paññå based on listening, on bearing in mind, paññå which comprehends and realizes (pativedha). in msg #50695 The first level is pariyatti,the study of the theory about realities. When right understanding of the realities that appear and that arise and fall away has become more firmly established, it is the condition for the arising of sati that studies realities with awareness. Then one will gradually understand the true nature of realities as they are appearing one at a time. This is satipatthåna, or, it can be called the practice, patipatti, that is the second level of understanding. The Påli term patipatti can mean going towards [1]. When sati arises it goes specifically towards such or such characteristic of a paramattha dhamma that is appearing. in msg #53183 Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) jonoabb Hi Dieter (105077) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > D: no amount of exercise can induce wholesomeness to arise?? > =============== J: Yes, that's what I understand. You see, the present mind-state is either wholesome or unwholesome. It arises as kusala by conditions, and it cannot be induced to be kusala by the undertaking of specific exercises. It seem to me that exercises designed to induce kusala to arise in place of present akusala -- i.e., not themselves kusala consciousness -- would have to be akusala (if you say it's kusala, what kind of kusala is it?). To my understanding, the suttas contain descriptions of what wholesomeness is and the conditions for its arising. They do not prescribe exercises to be followed for inducing kusala to arise. > =============== > "The monk rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, unwholesome things not yet arisen ... to overcome them ... to develop wholesome things not yet arisen ... to maintain them, and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives" (A. IV, 13). > =============== J: In my view, this sutta passage is to be read as referring to actual moments of those 4 things, namely, the avoidance of unwholesome things, the overcoming unwholesome things, the developing of wholesome things and the maintaining wholesome things. If that were not the case, then it would be referring to unwholesome states of mind. To put it another way, the development of metta and the 'arousing of will' to develop metta are one and the same thing, except that the latter emphasises the mental factor of energy that accompanies the development of metta. Otherwise one is postulating a separate category of kusala that consists of the 'arousing of will' in respect of the different kinds of kusala. > =============== > > (1) "What now, o monks, is the effort to avoid? Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise, such as greed and sorrow, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses. This is called the effort to avoid. > =============== J: The first sentence of this description refers to moments of direct awareness of a presently arising dhamma. It is only by the arising of sati/panna that there is the experiencing of a dhamma without there being adhering to the whole or parts of the object (Pali: nimitta anubhyancana). Likewise in the remaining 3 padhaanas the reference is to kusala in the form of: - abandoning/not retaining any thought of sensual lust, or any other unwholesome states that may have arisen - developing the factors of enlightenment, bent on solitude, on detachment, on extinction, and ending in deliverance - keeping firmly in mind a favourable object of concentration, Jon > =============== > > (2) "What now is the effort to overcome? The monk does not retain any thought of sensual lust, or any other evil, unwholesome states that may have arisen; he abandons them, dispels them, destroys them, causes them to disappear. This is called the effort to overcome. > > (3) "What now is the effort to develop? The monk develops the factors of enlightenment, bent on solitude, on detachment, on extinction, and ending in deliverance, namely: mindfulness (sati), investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya), energy (viriya), rapture (pi-ti), tranquillity (passaddhi), concentraton (sama-dhi), equanimity (upekkha-). This is called the effort to develop. > > (4) "What now is the effort to maintain? The monk keeps firmly in his mind a favourable object of concentration, such as the mental image of a skeleton, a corpse infested by worms, a corpse blueblack in colour, a festering corpse, a corpse riddled with holes, a corpse swollen up. This is called the effort to maintain" (A. IV, 14).' > #105182 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) II jonoabb Hi again Dieter (105077, cont'd) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > think about the exercises to overcome the ( unwholesome ) 5 hindrances ..etc. > =============== J: I do not think the Buddha prescribed exercises to overcome the hindrances. In the course of praising the development of jhana, he explained that the hindrances are abandoned (in the sense of being temporarily suppressed) by jhana. We could look at a specific sutta passage, if you like. > =============== > D: right effort and leaned on that right mindfulness /sati applies to the present moment ( not excluding the Jhanas ) , doesn't it? > =============== J: If the present moment is kusala, there is right effort; if the present moment is akusala, there is wrong effort. There is no in-between or transitional stage of right effort for yet-to-occur kusala (a sort of equivalent to the conventional notion of trying/practising to do something properly while mostly falling short of achieving that). Each of us already has the capacity for kusala, because kusala has been developed during our countless lives in samsara to date. What is lacking is sufficient stimulus for that kusala to arise. > =============== > The path is any moment of awareness that may arise. > > D: you mean in connection with the exercises/contemplations as in detail explained in the Maha Satipatthana Sutta ? > =============== J: To my understanding, what is explained in the Satipatthana Sutta is the occurrence of awareness/insight (in some instances, while contemplating), rather than exercises (or contemplations) undertaken for the purpose of giving rise to awareness/insight. Again, we could look at specific passages (of your choice) from the sutta to discuss in greater detail. Jon #105183 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) jonoabb Hi Colette (105079) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > ... > colette: I'm just working w/ what the words, THAT YOU WROTE AND THAT YOU THOUGHT OF, say. > > You place sense-door experience BEFORE, PRECEDING, mind-door consciousness > =============== J: Let me give an example of the sort of this I was referring to: In order for this post to be read and understood, there must be the experiencing of visible object followed by mind-door moments of thinking about what has been seen. This is the natural order of things. > =============== THEREFORE YOU SUGGEST THAT SUNYATA IS NOT REAL, THAT SUNYATA/SHUNYATA IS A LIE, IS A FALSEHOOD, SINCE THE OBJECT HAS TO EXIST BEFORE THE MIND HAS ANY CONCEPTION OF AN ABILITY TO COGNIZE > =============== J: I'm afraid I don't see why you read me as suggesting the sunyatta is not real. > =============== -- which is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE OF THE MIND-ONLY SCHOOL that simply states that from the time that you began formulating in an incubator you had no consciousness and it's only because you have been filled w/ OTHER PEOPLE'S PRECONCEIVED HALLUCINATIONS, DELUSIONS, MENTAL ILLNESS, this is THE CAUSE of a STATUS QUO, this is the cause of a CASTE SYSTEM, OTHER'S PROGRAMMED YOU TO BELIEVE WHAT THEY BELIEVE AFTER THEY HAVE ALREADY COMMITTED THE CRIME. Then, as you are growing up, you simply find explanations which vindicate your parents innocense to the crime that they committed and are the entire perpetuator of the crime. > =============== J: To borrow one of your own expressions, this is "waaaaaaay out there" ;?)) > =============== > You are simply under an impression that "one thing" has to come before another thing, THAT THERE HAS TO BE A LINEAR PROCESS. <...> > =============== J: Some forms of conditioning are what you might call linear, others are not. > =============== > There are a few good points you made in your reply that I'd like to comment on later. > =============== J: Looking forward to that (for a change ;-)) Jon #105184 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) jonoabb Hi Alex (105081) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > Then there is no use in studying, considering, reflecting, visiting Bankgok and so on - since "no amount of exercise can induce wholesomeness to arise". None of considering, studying, visiting KSujin can induce wholesomeness to arise. K Sujanists and Christians have the same result. None of them are any closer to arising of panna, if panna cannot be made to arise. None of them are in more advantageous positions regarding mindfulness (sati) and so on. This is the implication of your statement, and this is why it is not worth pursuing. What is the point in following a teaching if it says that nothing can be done in any way. > =============== J: In a sense, what you say here is correct: none of those things, as *activities to be done*, can condition wholesomeness to arise. The conditions for the arising of panna were clearly spelt out by the Buddha. They are the 4 things beginning with 'association with the right person' that have been mentioned so often here. None of these 4 prerequisites are *things to do*. Any given activity can be done with or without panna, with or without kusala, so no activity can ever be said to be a prerequisite, unless we clearly understand that when we speak of an activity we are in fact referring to kusala moments of consciousness only, using the activity as a convenient manner of expression to represent those moments of kusala consciousness. > =============== > Jon, I do hope that you reject the possibility of CONTROL, but do not refute the possibility of setting conditions for future arising of Panna when the conditions accumulate. > =============== J: The idea of setting conditions for the future arising of panna might well be an idea of control in disguise. There is no need to think in such terms. An idea of indirect (as opposed to direct) control is still an idea of control ;-)) > =============== This, btw, isn't different from methodology of meditation. Jhana is a result of certain causes, and it itself can be the cause of yathabhutananadassana to arise (see Upanisa Sutta). > =============== J: The Upanisa Sutta describes dhammas that are proximate cause for other dhammas. We need to understand what is meant by 'proximate cause'. To say that A is a proximate cause for B does not mean that A is the cause of B arising. Jon #105185 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear Dieter thanks for the simile of the horse.? It shows clearly that?different conditons could cause wise arousing of effort.?? I particularly like this statement <>? There is no wise effort without panna and there is no realization of truth without panna with metta Ken O > >3. Patodasutta? ? The driving stick > >012.03. Bhikkhus, these four thoroughbred horses are evident in the world. What four? > >Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred horse seeing the case of the whip is frightened and becomes remorseful. What training will the trainer give me today, how will I react to it? Bhikkhus, there is, such a kind of thoroughbred horse. This is the first thoroughbred horse evident in the world. > >Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred horse, seeing the case of the whip is not frightened and does not become remorseful. With a touch on his back he is frightened and becomes remorseful. What training will the trainer give me today, how will I react to it? > >Bhikkhus, there is, such a kind of thoroughbred horse. This is the second thoroughbred horse evident in the world. > >Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred horse, is neither frightened seeing the case of the whip, nor with a touch on his back, he is frightened and becomes remorseful, when he feels near the flesh. What training will the trainer give me today, how will I react to it? > >Bhikkhus, there is, such a kind of thoroughbred horse. This is the third thoroughbred horse evident in the world. > >Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred horse, is neither frightened seeing the case of the whip, nor with a touch on his back, or even feeling the touch near his flesh, he is frightened and becomes remorseful, when he feels it at the bones. What training will the trainer give me today, how will I react to it? Bhikkhus, there is, such a kind of thoroughbred horse. This is the fourth thoroughbred horse evident in the world. > >Bhikkhus, these four thoroughbred horses are evident in the world. > >Bhikkhus, in the same manner there are four thoroughbred men evident in the world. What four? > >Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred man hears, in such and such a village or hamlet, a woman or man is either gravely ill or is dead and he becomes frightened and remorseful. Then he wisely arouses effort to dispel, realizes the highest truth with the body and penetratingly sees it with wisdom. Bhikkhus, he is like the first thoroughbred horse, who is frightened and remorseful seeing the case of the whip. This is the first thoroughbred man evident in the world. > >Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred man does not hear, in such and such a village or hamlet, a woman or man is either gravely ill or is dead, but he himself sees a woman or man either gravely ill or dead he is frightened and remorseful on account of that Then he wisely arouses effort to dispel, realizes the highest truth with the body and penetratingly sees it with wisdom. Bhikk hus, he is like the second thoroughbred horse, who is frightened and remorseful with a touch on his back. This is the second thoroughbred man evident in the world. > >Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred man does not hear, in such and such a village or hamlet, a woman or man is either gravely ill or is dead, does not see a woman or man either gravely ill or dead. But he himself sees a blood relation gravely ill or dead and is frightened and remorseful on account of that Then he wisely arouses effort to dispel, realizes the highest truth with the body and penetratingly sees it with wisdom. Bhikkhus, he is like the third thoroughbred horse, who is frightened and remorseful with a feeling that touches his flesh. This is the third thoroughbred man evident in the world. > >Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred man does not hear, in such and such a village or hamlet, a woman or man is either gravely ill or is dead, does not see a woman or man either gravely ill or dead. Does not see a blood relation gravely ill or dead but is touched by sever bodily pain rough and sharp and is frightened and remorseful on account of that Then he wisely arouses effort to dispel, realizes the highest truth with the body and penetratingly sees it with wisdom. Bhikkhus, he is like the fourth thoroughbred horse, who is frightened and remorseful with a feeling that touches his bones. This is the fourth thoroughbred man evident in the world. #105186 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana was :Notes about the three rounds, no 4. ashkenn2k Dear Alex >Angulimala has murdered 999 people. He still became an Arahant. I do not think that any of us has murdered 1 person, let alone 999. If he could do it, so can we. > >In the suttas the path to stream entry (saddhanusarin and dhammanusarin) are not so difficult to attain for motivated Buddhist. >From there one would die as stream-enterer at least. So it is possible for many to end samsara within 7 lives. > >If anyone interested, we can talk about it. KO:? I like this sutta.? An interesting one.? First it shows, it is not sila that develop panna. If it is, Anguilmala would not have a chance because he kill 999 people, so many akusala sila. Secondly, it shows the power of Buddha, only he knows the accumulations of a person and he is able to teach Angulimala Thirdly, it shows that conditions of accumulation of panna.? Anguilmala is able to realised that the recluse is speaking the truth and?after some conversation, able to understand the truth spoken by?recluse, realise the recluse is Buddha and then immediately stop violence.??This shows the strength of panna that is accumulated Fourthly, before he was of noble birth, Anguilama is full of violence.? When he mean an occassion of a lady with a difficult birth, he was full of compassion towards the lady.? So it shows very clearly, when panna arise,?compassion could arise.??? fifth - An noble one cannot tell a lie.? It shows the sila is perfected when panna arise. sixth - an arahant still have to face kamma in his last life after that no more kamma. With metta Ken O #105187 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:04 am Subject: Re: Dhaniya Sutta Pali words (4) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Again, many thanks for sharing all your helpful research. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > Dhaniya Sutta Pali words (continuation) > > 11. Dhaniya: > "The stakes are dug-in, immovable. > The new mu~nja-grass halters, well-woven, > not even young bulls could break: > so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." > > 11. Khiilaa nikhaataa asampavedhii (iti dhaniyo gopo) > Daamaa mu~njamayaa navaa susa.n.thaanaa, > Na hi sakkhinti dhenupaapi chettu.m > Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. > > khiila: (m.), peg; a stake; a post. > nikhaata: [pp. of nikha.nati] dug into; buried. > asampakampiya: [adj.] not to be shaken, immovable. > daama: rope. > mu~njamaya: mu~nja-grass. > nava: [adj.] new. > susa.n.thaana: [adj.] having a good design; well-woven. > na: [ind.] (negative particle), no; not. > hi: [ind.] because; indeed. > chettu: [m.] one who cuts; cutter. > na hi sakkhinti dhenupaapi chettu.m = not even young bulls could break. > > [Han: Here, there is some confusion. In verse (9) dhenupa is translated as suckling cattle, which is correct. But here, dhenupa is translated as young bulls. PTS Dictionary also gives the meaning of dhenupa as a suckling calf. I cannot explain this discrepancy.] .... S: Yes, it's rather confusing. I also tried to check. In verse(9), I wonder if "atthi vasaa atthi dhenupaa", doesn't refer to cows and bullocks? You suggest "vasaa = young bulls....", but PTS dict gives "vasaa = cow..." Here's the Norman transl: v9: " 'There are cows, bullocks, cows in calf, and breeding cows too', said Dhaniya the herdsman. 'There is a bull too here, the leader of the cows. So rain, sky [-deva], if you wish.' " v11: "'The stakes are dug-in, unshakable', said Dhaniya the herdsman. '[There are] new halters made of munja grass, of good quality. Even the bullocks will not be able to break them. So rain, sky [-deva], if you wish.'" S: This translation makes good sense. The Buddhadatta dict gives "Dhenupa = (m), a suckling calf." I think they should both be translated as 'bullock' or 'male calf', not sure which is more correct, but a bullock would be stronger:). ... <.... > 17. The Buddha: > "Those with children grieve because of their children. > Those with cattle grieve because of their cows. > A person's grief comes from acquisitions, > since a person with no acquisitions doesn't grieve." > > 17. Socati puttehi puttimaa (iti bhagavaa) > Gomiko gohi tatheva socati, > Upadhiihi narassa socanaa > Na hi so socati yo niruupadhiiti. > > Same as in Verse 16, except that nandati is replaced by socati (grief). ... S: and "no acquisitions" refers to no tanha - not a matter of giving up the children and cows, but of understanding the real cause of sorrow....and then the rest takes care of itself, as Ken H would say:). ... > with metta, > Han > "I" "I" "I" ... S: Yes, exactly:-)) While it's "I" "I" I", as it is for all of us, there are bound to be acquisitions of tanha and sorrow over and over again. Much appreciated, Sarah p.s do you have any other series to share with us if it's not too 'burdensome'? ======== #105188 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Hinayana" in the Kanjur? nilovg Dear Buddy, Op 12-feb-2010, om 22:01 heeft Buddy het volgende geschreven: > I am less than a beginner with the Abhidhamma. I know what it is, > but have not read any of it - just references in other material. I > had not know of your work until I started reading this group, and > was yesterday trying to decide which book of yours to begin with. I > was thinking "Abhidhamma in Daily Life." Or should I start with > another one? ------- N: Try ADL, and it is best to proceed very slowly. It is not a book to read through quickly. As you go along reading we are delighted to hear any questions. We are all beginners, and questions that we have to consider can remind us of the Truth. Whatever you read, it all points to the truth of anattaa, non-self. What we take for a person is only citta, cetasika and ruupa, arising and falling away very rapidly. The Abhidhamma is not theoretical, it relates to the phenomena of our daily life. But it may take a while before we really see this. Nina. #105189 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:19 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 2 No 8 ashkenn2k Dear friends Question: When we taste a sour flavour and we notice that it is sour, do we experience already a concept? S.: What is sour? Q.: For example, a sour orange. The flavour is a paramattha dhamma, and when we think of a sour orange the object is a concept. The words sour orange are sadda paññatti, concept of sound. When we name something the object is a nåma paññatti, a concept which is a name. If there are no sounds, no words, and we do not think of the meaning of things, we do not pay much attention to objects. When sound is the object of cittas of the ear-door process and then of cittas of the mind-door process, saññå (mental factor of perception) which remembers the meaning of the different sounds conditions thinking about words and names. Everything can be called by a name; such as a pen, a pencil, a table or a chair, these are all names. There is no dhamma which cannot be called by a name. Since dhammas have distinctive characteristics names are needed to make these known. Thus, dhammas are the cause of name giving. The Atthasåliní (Book II, Part II, Ch II, 391) describes the process of name giving. We read: There is no being, no thing that may not be called by a name. Also the trees in the forest, the mountains are the business of the country folk. For they, on being asked, “What tree is this?” say the name they know, as “Cutch”, “Mango tree”. Even of the tree the name of which they know not, they say, “It is the nameless tree”. And that also stands as the established name of that tree... to be continued Ken O #105190 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary jonoabb Hi KenO (and KenH) (105074) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > ... > KO: It is not a touchy one, it is because a lack of understanding of this subject. Did Buddha teach a set of meditation objects, yes he did. Did he teach how to develop the various types of meditation objects, yes he did. > =============== J: I'm not so sure about this. To my understanding, the Buddha explained the manner of contemplating those objects that were specific to the Buddha-Dhamma, such as the recollection of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, but did not otherwise go into detail about *how* samatha is developed. This may perhaps be due to the fact that the development of samatha was already known and was not one of the things newly discovered by the Buddha. > =============== > If people think that is a formal meditation subject, they are right they are formal in that sense of the method being taught and the details given > =============== J: I would say that samatha as developed by those who had already attained a fairly advance level has the appearance of a formal practice, but that in fact the development of samatha is not a matter of following a particular method. > =============== but they do not realise that it needs a strong understanding to develop for taking up a meditation subject. because one must have firm understanding of right view before embarking on a meditation subject. If not, one will attach to a self or believe there is a I that is doing concentration on a mediation object. > =============== J: The understanding that is required for the development of samatha is not the understanding that sees there is no "I". It is understanding that understands the difference between kusala consciousness and subtle akusala. The development of samatha spoken of by the Buddha was, of course, the development of samatha by one who is also developing insight. To my understanding, the Buddha did not encourage the development of samatha (or any kind of kusala) for its own sake, since that does not lead to release from samsara. Jon #105191 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:15 am Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 17 ashkenn2k Dear friends Q. : If we are heedful when objects are impinging, for example, when visible object contacts the eye or sound contacts the ear, there will be neither happiness nor sorrow. S. : There is not “somebody” or a “self” who could be heedful or force the arising of sati. When sati arises we can know the difference between the moment with sati and the moment without sati. Q. : The five khandhas of the ordinary person must be the same as those of the arahat, but the khandhas of the ordinary person are still objects of clinging and this causes the arising of dukkha. When we gradually learn to be heedful when sense objects such as visible object or sound are impinging on the relevant doorways, do we develop satipaììhåna in the right way? S. : One should remember that all dhammas are anattå, non-self, so that sati can be developed in the right way. One should know when there is sati and when there is no sati. When one has a concept of self who is heedful, satipaììhana is not developed. Q. : The word anattå is difficult to understand. We can translate the Påli term attå as self and the term anattå as non-self, but we do not really understand the meaning of these terms. We may say that there is no self, but we still cling to the concept of self. S. : What is the self? Q. : We may assume that we are the “self”, but the Buddha states that there are only the five khandhas which arise together. S. : The khandhas are not a person, not a self, but if we do not know that there are only the khandhas, we assume that there is a self. Q. : Although we know this, we still think, when we are seeing, that a self is seeing. S. : That is so because we do not have yet clear comprehension of the true characteristics of the khandhas, as realities which arise and fall away very rapidly. They can be classified in different ways, namely, as past, present and future; as coarse and subtle; as internal and external; as far and near, and so on. If one can discern the characteristics of the khandhas, one will know that these realities which arise and fall away are only: rúpakkhandha (physical phenomena), vedanåkkhandha (feeling), saññåkkhandha (remembrance or perception), saòkhårakkhandha (formations or activities, all cetasikas other than vedanå and saññå), viññåùakkhandha (consciousness). to be continued Ken O #105192 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:41 am Subject: Re: Accumulations and dwindling of akusala kamma patha sarahprocter... Hi Phil! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > If akusala has been accumulating for aeons (and it has, not disputing that) how is it possible for the Buddha to teach that sila in this one lifetime can lead to favourable rebirth? ... S: Good deeds in any lifetime can lead to a favourable rebirth. The Tipitaka is full of accounts of good deeds from previous lives way, way back (even those in the times of past, past Buddhas) bringing favourable rebirths in the present life. The Therii tales which Connie posted were full of such detail (see 'sisters' in U.P.). Likewise, bad deeds can lead to an unfavourable rebirth anytime. ... >It might have to do with something that Rob Moult had in his book on Abhidhamma, that in natural decisive support condition, kammas that are recent have greater weight. A.S denies that and I haven't come across it anywhere else - yet - but it provides a logical explanation for the above question. ... S: As you'll recall, I picked up on this point of Rob's, found absolutely no support for it in the texts, raised it with AS, who (as you say) also dismissed it. Conditions are very complex aren't they? ... >The abstention from akusala kamma patha that has become more frequent in our lives as a result of the rare good fortune of having been born human in a time when the teaching of a Buddha exists might have relatively greater weight that kusala performed in past lives. ... S: In any case such kusala in this lifetime accumulates and will either bring its results or support other kusala kamma from the past. However, there's no knowing which kamma at the end of life will bring what result. Only ariyans (and cula-sotapannas, I'd say) are of "assured destiny" and will not be reborn in woeful planes. Think of Queen Mallika who was devoted to serving the Buddha and had strong confidence in the Teachings and yet was reborn in hell (though only for seven days). .... >I will lead this one lifetime believing that this is the case for the sake of the conditioning power involved in such a belief, even as I keep the channel open for gradually getting into a deeper and possibly truer understanding. ... S: I feel sure that as the understanding does become deeper and deeper, the confidence in the value and importance of sila becomes firmer and firmer, so that one doesn't need to think of any carrots, such as a good rebirth, because it just wouldn't occur to one to cause harm and fear to others by killing, stealing, lying and sexual misconduct. One will also find one is just not tempted to take intoxicants. So, for me, the development of sila is closely tied to the development of panna (of all kinds and levels). If one doesn't really begin to see how gross and dangerous are even the thoughts about performing such kinds of harmful deeds, let alone the akusla kamma patha itself at such times of non-abstention, then there will only ever be a very temporary break in the habitual patterns. Perhaps we should discuss more about why these breaches of the precepts (or even tendencies to do so) are so very unskilful? Metta Sarah ======= #105193 From: han tun Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhaniya Sutta Pali words (4) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Sarah: Yes, it's rather confusing. I also tried to check. In verse (9), I wonder if "atthi vasaa atthi dhenupaa", doesn't refer to cows and bullocks? You suggest "vasaa = young bulls....", but PTS dict gives "vasaa = cow..." Han: I took that translation from Pali-Burmese Dictionary and from the tape by U Nyanissara. ---------- Sarah: Here's the Norman transl: v9: " 'There are cows, bullocks, cows in calf, and breeding cows too', said Dhaniya the herdsman. 'There is a bull too here, the leader of the cows. So rain, sky [-deva], if you wish.' " v11: "'The stakes are dug-in, unshakable', said Dhaniya the herdsman. '[There are] new halters made of munja grass, of good quality. Even the bullocks will not be able to break them. So rain, sky [-deva], if you wish.'" S: This translation makes good sense. The Buddhadatta dict gives "Dhenupa = (m), a suckling calf." I think they should both be translated as 'bullock' or 'male calf', not sure which is more correct, but a bullock would be stronger:). Han: I agree with your observations. Actually, it does not really matter which cattle is which, as long as we get the *spirit* of the Verses. ---------- Sarah: and "no acquisitions" refers to no tanha - not a matter of giving up the children and cows, but of understanding the real cause of sorrow....and then the rest takes care of itself, as Ken H would say:). Han: Very well-said. ---------- Much appreciated, Sarah p.s do you have any other series to share with us if it's not too 'burdensome' ? Han: Thank you very much for your appreciation. Not at the moment. At the moment, I am working with Chew off-line for his Visuddhimagga project. And I also have to write at JTN. I will write later at DSG. Respectfully, Han #105194 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:16 pm Subject: Dosa szmicio Dear friends, I feel dosa of some words I had spoken. I could not change it now, so I feel sad. Best wishes Lukas #105195 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:33 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary sarahprocter... Dear pt (Mike & all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > Everything can be conventionally interpreted as a method, even "no method" can be called a method, but all that would be missing the point. The point is, I think - is there awareness arising right now or not? If it is, then that's the correct path at that moment - i.e. wisdom has arisen, which means that right view is present as the forerunner for the other factors of the 8-fold path at that moment. That I believe is the crux of the matter and I believe we all agree on this. .... S: Nicely put. I've quoted the following before, but some friends may not have seen it: >SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? [B.Bodhi transl] Is there a method of exposition, bhikkhus, by means of which a bhikkhu - apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it* - can declare final knowledge thus: 'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being'?"** <....> "There is a method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu - apart from faith.....apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it - can declare final knowledge thus: 'Destroyed is birth....there is no more for this state of being.' And what is that method of exposition? Here, bhikkhus, having seen a form with the eye, if there is lust, hatred, or delusion internally, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is lust, hatred, or delusion internally'; or, if there is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally, he understands: 'There is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally.' Since this is so, are these things to be understood by faith, or by personal preference, or by oral tradition, or by reasoned reflection, or by acceptance of a view after pondering it?" "No, venerable sir." "Aren't these things to be undeerstood by seeing them with wisdom?***" "Yes, venerable sir." "This, bhikkhus, is the method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu can declare final knowledge thus: 'Destroyed is birth..there is no more for this state of being.'" "Further, bhikkhus, having heard a sound with the ear....Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, if there is lust, hatred, or delusion internallly..........etc" <....> "This, bhikkhus, is the method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu - apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it- can declare final knowledge thus: 'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.'" ....... * BB note 150: As at 12:68 [Kosambi] ** Pali for this paraatthi naa kho bhikkhave, pariyaayo ya'n pariyaaya'n aagamma bhikkhu a~n~natreva saddhaaya a~n~natra- ruciyaa a~n~natra anussavaa a~n~natra aakaaraparivitakkaa a~n~natra di.t.thinijjhaanakkhantiyaa a~n~na'n vyaakareyya: "khii.naa jaati, vusita'n brahmacariya'n, kata'n kara.niiya'n naapara'n itthattaayaati pajaanaam?" ti~n ***dhammaa pa~n~naaya disvaa veditabbaati ...... Metta Sarah ======= #105196 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:39 pm Subject: Re: Dosa sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear friends, > I feel dosa of some words I had spoken. I could not change it now, so I feel sad. ... S: Yes, natural to feel so. More clinging, more dosa. What's happened has happened. Feeling sad about it never helps! "I", "I", "I" again... If there's awareness now, no sadness at all. Metta Sarah ========= #105197 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Vince, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > Why not try a short extract in the files section from Bodh Gaya. > > I will do. Where are the transcriptions exactly? > Inside dhammastudygroup.org website I only can find the recorded sessions. :( ... S: I was recommending the audio (not a transcription) to be found at the top of the files section of DSG (on left side of homepage). There aren't any complete transcriptions of the audio. Sometimes we select some parts and transcribe for discussion and you could try to do the same - even if only a couple of sentences. Nina has also transcribed lots of material from the Thai and English which she uses and shares in her writings, such as all the good material on the 3 Rounds at the moment. Why not start at the beginning of the Bodh Gaya extract I recommended and try transcribing a sentence or two at a time for discussion? Metta Sarah ======= #105198 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:10 pm Subject: Re: The theft sarahprocter... Dear pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: >So, it's a tough choice, I'd usually just rather let it all go, but then that often doesn't seem to be socially acceptable response. Not easy being dispassionate :) .... S: :) Yes, my inclination is the same. Some of those earlier incidents I discussed with Rob Ep in a dhamma thread I'd never even bothered to mention to anyone until then, not even Jon. If it's just going to lead to worry and anxiety and the culprit's not going to be caught/nothing can be proven, then better to just 'let it all go'. Life is really wretched for the one with bad sila and lots of ignorance about its harm, it can all be an opportunity for compassion. .... > > Verse 61: If a person seeking a companion cannot find one who is better than or equal to him, let him resolutely go on alone; there can be no companionship with a fool." > > Yeah, this is one of the few sayings that I never really understood. I mean if wiser people don't have contact with less wise people and don't teach them dhamma, then everyone will permanently remain less wise. .... S: If we take the deeper meaning, whilst assisting the 'less wise', whilst teaching the dhamma, there is at such times association with the wise, living alone with right understanding. We can also appreciate the effect of sappaya sampajjana (what is suitable for comprehension) at this moment. If one is sick, without any contact with the Dhamma, or living with a thief, it's likely there will be more agitation, less wisdom. It doesn't mean there can not be right understanding at any moment, but we can understand what the Buddha meant when he taught about the greatest Blessings in the Mangala Sutta and so on. Those who listened to the Satipatthana Sutta in the Kuru country happened to have a good climate, good food, good companionship and so on. They were ready to appreciate the Teachings. ... >Though perhaps the meaning of the sutta is more narrow - i.e. it's only advice for those "seeking" a companion, so if a wise person fares alone, that still doesn't preclude him from giving dhamma lessons to those less wise. Likewise, those who do harm to the wise person would still not classify as his "companions" but only as less wise and thus can't be really blamed for their transgressions as these are a simple consequence of lack of wisdom. .... S: Accumulations, as Ken O would say. I think there's a fine line between thinking one can select certain situations for wisdom and other kinds of kusala to develop (i.e lobha for results) and naturally finding one is drawn to wise companionship, avoids strip clubs (Alex!), and reads suttas on a Saturday night! With verses and suttas like this one, I think they can be read and appreciated on different levels, all according to one's understanding at the time. We know that at the deepest level, all that counts is the learning to live alone with right understanding at this moment, alone with whatever the reality appearing, no matter the circumstances. Many thanks for your helpful comments. Best wishes with those dispassionate accumulations:). Metta Sarah ========== #105199 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhaniya Sutta Pali words (4) nilovg Dear Han and Chew, Can it be online? Chew sent me offline a part of it, but it is nice to share. Even if it is a work in progress ;-)) Nina. Op 13-feb-2010, om 12:07 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I am working with Chew off-line for his Visuddhimagga project.