#106600 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 8:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 5-apr-2010, om 10:52 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > KO: Clearly comprehending the body intimation and rupas when one > walk forward. If one loose that moment, go back the starting point > and walk forward again. Walking back and forth, the method used by > one disciple to attain Arahant as in the commentary to DN2, > translated by B Bodhi. ------- N: I remember. Sometimes when we read the Vis. we meet strange things, and we wonder: is this a prescription? I asked Kh Sujin about this example and she said: these were his accumulations. In other words: not a prescription to be followed, but just a description. Kh Sujin said that one may read the whole of the Vis. with wrong understanding. We read about the temperaments, and regulations about the choosing of the meditation subject. If we read carefully and consider we can find out that all of us have such inclinations as described under temperaments. We read about the stages of insight, and it seems that one has to be aware of ruupa first, then of naama. But if we read more carefully, we see that there are no rules. We should not take all these things as prescriptions, but as descriptions, illustrations. When a person is acting in a certain way, it depends on his accumulated inclinations. It does not mean that all of us have to act in the same way. Nina. #106601 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 9:16 am Subject: Re: Character encoding ptaus1 Hi all, Part 3 - about fonts As I understand it, the relationship between a font and an encoding is that the encoding will supply the character in number form (so "0062" will represent the character "b"), while the font will supply the picture ("glyph") that corresponds with that number (so "b" itself). So where one font differs from another font is firstly on the assigned numbers for each character (e.g.0062 for Unicode-compliant fonts always corresponds to "b", while in non-unicode fonts this number might be different). And secondly, they differ on the looks of the glyphs - so you might have Arial, Times, Courier, etc fonts, which all look differently, even though 0062=b in each one. So for example, if I press "b" key on my keyboard and the keyboard layout which handles my typing is Unicode-based, then it will send "0062" to my browser. If my browser is also set to Unicode encoding, it will then consult a font to display the picture (glyph) that corresponds with "0062", "b". Obviously, if any of the links in this chain is off, the displayed glyph might just turn out to be something completely different. E.g. if you have a non-unicode font, it might understand 0062 to correspond to some other glyph. If the browser is set to some other encoding, it will be sending the wrong numbers to the font, etc. Thankfully, most of the fonts lately are Unicode-compliant, and this includes both TrueType Apple fonts, as well as OpenType Microsoft/Adobe fonts. The difficulty is that most of the fonts you can download or already have will not include all the possible Unicode glyphs simply because there are thousands of them. So, fonts are usually selective and include only those glyphs that are needed for some purpose. That's aside from having different looks. So, for example, if you want to read Pali with latin letters and diacritics, it's not enough just to have a Unicode-based font, but you'd need to have a Unicode-based font that has these particular Pali diacritic glyphs, because most standard font packages just include the standard latin letters, numbers, signs of punctuation and maybe a few greek letters. In terms of Unicode blocks (how all the glyphs are classified in Unicode standard) all the Pali diacritic letters are in: Basic Latin: for standard letters Latin-1 Supplement: for ń Latin Extended-A: for a-,i-,u- Latin Extended Additional: for t.,d.,l.,b.,n.,m.,n. For Devanagari there's a special block called the same, and I suspect for other scripts each will have its on block. An interesting question is what happens if you don't have the original font that a document was written in - e.g. say someone typed Pali in latin script with diacritics in a Unicode-based font called "Lucida Grande", and you want to read it on your pc, but you don't have that font on your computer. In that case, your computer will simply try to represent the same numbers it got, but with another Unicode-based font that is already installed - and the result will be entirely correct, though the looks might be a little different. Of course, this will happen only if you have all the glyphs necessary, if not, then the absent glyphs simply won't show, or might show as a line or a square, or whatever other sign your system uses to show it has nothing to match the character number it got. If the original font is not Unicode-based, which is what often happens with older custom-made Pali fonts, and you don't have that particular font on your machine, then it's probable that there will be more mismatch between original character numbers and the glyphs you are getting, especially when it comes to non-standard glyphs like the letters with diacritics. Anyway, it's likely that your computer already has at lest one Unicode-compliant font that contains the Pali latin diacritic letters - so you probably have all the glyphs you need, but not necessarily in different looks. If that's what you're after, there are several fonts that offer different looks for Pali for free on Bhikkhu Pesala's site: http://www.aimwell.org/Fonts/fonts.html These should work on both Mac and Windows. Just have in mind they are compressed with 7-zip, which is also free to download. Next time, we'll talk about changing the encoding in the browser and about keyboard layouts if there's space. Best wishes pt #106602 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 12:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? / useful nilovg Dear Robin and Kevin, Op 6-apr-2010, om 23:11 heeft Rob het volgende geschreven: > Kevin Farrell wrote: > > > I understand what you said about these things not being necessary > for the development of insight. > > I am picking up an undercurrent of thought there. Another question > might be whether cultivation of the jhanas has value? If so, what > value? --------- N: It all depends on accumulated inclinations. The anaagaami and arahat who have cultivated jhaana and vipassanaa could attain cessation of perception and feeling for some time. This is very peaceful, if you compare this with seeing and hearing all the time right now. Those who are not arahat and cultivated jhaana can be reborn in brahma planes. Your question implies quite a study, and I can refer to Rob K's web. As to the Q. whether jhaana is necessary for enlightenment, I quote a post by Suan which Rob K included in his forum: (end quote). -------- Nina. #106603 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 3:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Nina ? N:?I remember. Sometimes when we read the Vis. we meet strange things, and we wonder: is this a prescription? I asked Kh Sujin about this example and she said: these were his accumulations. In other words: not a prescription to be followed, but just a description. Kh Sujin said that one may read the whole of the Vis. with wrong understanding. KO:? Yes it has to do with a person's inclinations due to the different objects.?? We cannot said it is not a prescription.? It is a prescribed formulae like the recitation of the 32 parts.? It is described in the Visud very clearly.? Whether it is describe or prescribe, it is rather not important, the important is that samath bhavana is not for ordinary person as?I said before.? Also for one who has a developed virture, mindfulness and panna that is describe by Visud, one could take up a samatha bhavana.? You also read very widely, could you said there is none. N:? We read about the stages of insight, and it seems that one has to be aware of ruupa first, then of naama. But if we read more carefully, we see that there are no rules. We should not take all these things as prescriptions, but as descriptions, illustrations. When a person is acting in a certain way, it depends on his accumulated inclinations. It does not mean that all of us have to act in the same way.? KO:? Yes agree, we do not need to act the same.? To me it is rather unwise to act the same because different people has different inclinations.???There is no rules in the Buddha dhamma,?then what are Vinaya,?are they not?rules describe and prescribe by Buddha. ? I wish to clarify that we cannot say there are no rules, if you look carefully at Visud and substantiate by the commentaries and even Abhidhamma texts, they are many rules or methods and practise which are done by ancient masters.? We cannot say there no such things exist.? We should say whether we could practise this in modern days.??So we?should not base on modern days people and tell pple there is no such which is there are, but for who?and what conditions and clarify the dhamma and samatha bhavana, and not claim there is no rules, no methods and no actions and no doing.??We should be precise?and? differentiate?actions from kusala and akusala.? If all conventional actions are wrong, then why one read and listen to dhamma.? ? ? Cheers Ken O #106604 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 3:29 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Ken O, and others, just jumping in with appreciation of your conclusion: ' There must be faith first before we first embark the understanding path, without convictions, how could one wanted to learn dhamma in the first place. Thereafer panna is the forerunner' I agree and this first panna , this beginning of right understanding starts with base knowledge of the Noble Truths , in particular with the Truth of Suffering , as like the Buddha stated 'if there would be no teaching without the fact of old age, sickness and death, i.e. that what finally is undisputable : Dukkha (at least for the reasonable). Being conditioned by birth ..suffering is the condition of faith (!) .. please compare with Upanissa Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html excerpt: "Just as, monks, when rain descends heavily upon some mountaintop, the water flows down along with the slope, and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these being filled fill up the pools; these being filled fill up the ponds; these being filled fill up the streams; these being filled fill up the rivers; and the rivers being filled fill up the great ocean - in the same way, monks, ...snip the wellknown 12 .. birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)." with Metta Dieter #106605 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 3:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sukin S: Let me try to elaborate. SK Let us say, someone has such accumulations as to truly see harm in lobha in relation to sense contacts, such that he could then begin to take on a ‘practice’ that would lead to the attainment of access concentration and on to Jhana. SK: What are the odds of such a person being involved in internet discussions?. Would he even talk about this to anyone, except maybe someone who can help him with the practice? When approaching such a person, would he do so seeking a technique or would it be to better understand the subject? When he does talk to other ordinary people, would that be about ‘practice’ or would it be something that the other person can relate to, namely the development of kusala in daily life? KO: As I said, ordinary people should not practise meditation. They dont understand meditation or contemplation of an object. They keep listening to those who dont read carefully the Suttas, Visud and the commentaries. Samantha bhavana requires a high degree of virture, restrain in sense faculties and clear comprehension . And these are just only meeting the pre-requistie and not yet the development for the samantha object. And they have to find a suitable place, that is even harder in modern days. 5. Indeed if there is the level of samvega, is there ever any reason for such a person to talk about the different objects of samatha > kamathana except the one that he himself has inclinations for? This above case applies only to the person who has not heard the Dhamma. those > who express a desire to develop Right Understanding, the following should also be considered: 1. The path of Samatha development is very different from that of Vipassana. 2. Someone who understands this difference would never encourage Samatha when even Pariyatti understanding could have been encouraged instead. And this is because just as it is at any other time, understanding the present moment is the most appropriate suggestion, so too > when someone expresses his desire to develop samatha (knowing that the one does nothing with regard to better understanding the conditioned nature of realities). KO: I would say we should explain samatha bhavana to those who wish to learn so that they can and growth to understand whether what they are doing is suitable for them or in line with dhamma. 3. So when it comes to talking about samatha development with others, he’d sure to be wary about whether or not self-view is involved. 4. When it comes to the idea of ‘meditation’, this is already proliferation of attachment and of view with regard to samatha development itself. When tying this with the development of Right Understanding, this must therefore surely involve attachment and the wrong view must then be that of a higher order. KO: There is nothing wrong with meditation, it is proliferation that make it wrong. If the idea is even wrong, then how does ancient masters accomplish it? Kind regards Ken O #106606 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 4:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality ashkenn2k Dear Alex and Mike ? >> >> Alex: An interesting thing is that VsM says that one can become awakened through 'conceptual' samatha objects like lets say maranasati. Not only that maranasati can lead to deathless (nibbana) it also leads to seeing tilakkhana. So one can investigate concepts and realize anicca-dukkha- anatta and reach nibbana. Alex: The suttas also frequently talk that Anapanasati can lead to Arhatship. Again, another conceptual object that can serve as basis for insight and liberation. KO:? The conceptual samatha objects?is only?for surmounting into jhanas.? It is after?emerging from jhanas then one could?investigate the object as in the 32 body parts, into elements, voidness or characteristic (i.e.?like hair has the characteristic of hardness), ?then that will lead?into?the understanding of delimiting the nama and rupa.?? Even for anapansati, it is?only after emerging from the jhanas of the samatha objects, and using that as a basis for insight, >> "A bhikkhu devoted to mindfulness of death is constantly diligent. >> He acquires perception of disenchantment with all kinds of becoming >> (existence). He conquers attachment to life. He condemns evil. He avoids much storing. He has no stain of avarice about requisites. Perception of impermanence grows in him, following upon which there appear the perceptions of pain and not-self. But while beings who have not developed [mindfulness of] death fall victims to fear, horror and confusion at the time of death as though suddenly seized by wild beasts, spirits, snakes, robbers, or murderers, he dies undeluded and fearless without falling into any such state. And if he does not attain the deathless here and now, he is at least headed for a happy destiny on the breakup of the body." - VsM VIII,48 KO: As for mindfulness of death, it is only access level and not at absorption of jhanas. Even though at access level, the hindrances are suppressed by the jhanas factors.? It is described at VsM VIII 40 Kind regards Ken O #106607 From: si-la-nanda Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 3:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? silananda_t Hi, Do not believe and be dissuaded by thoughts of skeptical doubts. Thoughts of your own and strengthed by others'. Remember skeptical doubts is one of the 5 hindrances . Practise, and dispell these doubts by your own knowing as a result of its purification through concentration. Let these thoughts be, do not dwell on them. Let the thoughts be as thoughts. This is appropriate attention. When one's concentration gain strength, these thoughts will weaken on their own, so will the stress that comes with them. * Nourishment of Doubt *There are things causing doubt; frequently giving unwise attention to them . that is the nourishment for the arising of doubt that has not yet arisen, and for the increase and strengthening of doubt that has already arisen. SN 46:51 This Path starts with faith. The faith that the 8 factors of the Path can be known in one's mind at the very present moment. mahakaruna silananda On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 2:04 AM, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > > Hi according to the Commentaries is jhana even still possible? Or is it > only the higher powers that aren't possible now? > > Thanks, > > Kevin > #106608 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 6:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? ashkenn2k Dear silananda What are the factors?that condition concentration and develop concentration? Kind regards Ken O >? >Hi, > >Do not believe and be dissuaded by thoughts of skeptical doubts. Thoughts of >your own and strengthed by others'. Remember skeptical doubts is one of the 5 >hindrances >. > >Practise, and dispell these doubts by your own knowing as a result of its >purification through concentration. Let these thoughts be, do not dwell on >them. Let the thoughts be as thoughts. This is appropriate attention. When >one's concentration gain strength, these thoughts will weaken on their own, >so will the stress that comes with them. > >* > >Nourishment of Doubt >*There are things causing doubt; frequently giving unwise attention to them >. that is the nourishment for the arising of doubt that has not yet arisen, >and for the increase and strengthening of doubt that has already arisen. SN >46:51 > >This Path starts with >faith. >The faith that the 8 factors of the Path can be known in one's mind at the >very present moment. > >mahakaruna >silananda > >On #106609 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 10:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? farrellkevin80 Hi Rob, You wrote: Rob: I would think so, that the jhanas are certainly possible. I have read some excerpts of commentaries by Bhikkhu Bodhi and others who describe the processes and factors as if from first hand experience. Kevin: I think Bodhi writes based on accepted Theravadin material. All the best, Kevin #106610 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 11:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? / useful farrellkevin80 Hi Rob, ________________________________ Rob: I have read that one not should not boast about attainments; and that if a monk lies about them that would be a grave offense. Kevin: If a monk knowingly lies about attainment to anyone he commits an unrepairable offense. The only action he can take is disrobe, and he must. If he tells other bhikkhus and it is true, then it is OK. If he tells laypeople and it is true, it is also an offense, but not of the same class; it can be repaired . Rob: I have read excerpts from recent commentaries, by people who are alive now; which describe the how to and what {5 hindrances, 3 stages, 5 factors, 8 or 9 levels}of jhana in some detail. Some of those contemporary works might be a waste of time, but a few seem to be authentic. There are also the three famous Theravadin tradition meditation manuals. Kevin: Maybe they have attained jhana, maybe not. I don't know. What three manuals do you speak of Rob? Rob: The fact that the authors of these works describe the jhanas in some detail, and add concepts not found in the suttas, implies that the authors have attained them? That instructions are included implies it is possible for others to apply them? Kevin: Personally,. I wouldn't jump into thinking that these things imply that people have attained them or that others can. Great post. Thank you. Kevin #106611 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 11:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? farrellkevin80 Dear Nina, Hi. Thanks for the great reply. You wrote: -------- Nina: Rob K collected a lot of material in his Abh. forum. I think you are a member? Well worth reading. http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/ Kevin: Hi Nina. Yes, I am a member. It is a great and valuable site. I visit it often. Anything Rob thinks worthy of recording there, I feel is worthy of my viewing without any doubt. He is a wise person and knows what to adopt and what to abandon. Nina: I personally like to be very careful about others' cittas. There are many misunderstandings, people taking for jhaana what is not jhaana. As to higher powers, these can be caused by other factors, wrong concentration, or they are due to experiences in past lives. So many factors we have to take into account. Nina. Kevin: This is considerably wise Nina. Kevin #106612 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 11:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Ken O, I am running out of arguments. :-) And I would hate to repeat any of the old ones! (joke) ------------- <. . .> KO: > Ultimately there is only paramatha dhamma, but does this understanding forestall the practise of that is written in the Visud and the Vinaya Rules.? -------------- No, because that practice is the Eightfold Path, which is a momentary arising of conditioned dhammas. That's what all conditioned reality ultimately is - a momentary arising of dhammas. And so I would never suggest that the Visud and the Vinaya Rules taught anything to the contrary. I would never suggest they taught methods, which are things apart from conditioned dhammas. Fortunately, there is no need to make that suggestion. The texts can be understood in a way that is entirely consistent with conditioned reality. You don't need a method, Ken, just understand the way things are now. Ken H #106613 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 12:36 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Howard, --------- <. . .> KH: > > Yes, unfortunately, that kind of thing is the most popularly known meaning of meditation. > > H: > It is Buddhadhamma. ---------- So you say, but the texts tell us the Buddhadhamma is profoundly different from all other teachings. How is your version different in any substantial way? --------------------- KH: > > According to the Buddha's teaching, there is ultimately no practice (in the conventional sense). > > H: > I'd like to see a sutta quote to that effect, Ken. --------------------- The Buddha taught anatta, which means that none of the things that exist, in the conventional sense of existing, actually exist at all. Therefore, the suttas are descriptions of how things actually do exist. A monk might ask the Buddha how (for example) a practice could be said to exist in view of anatta, and the Buddha would explain. That's what suttas are for. And so I wouldn't single out a single sutta quote; they all ultimately describe satipatthana and the eightfold path. ----------------------------------- H: > Ken, do you claim to KNOW what is true? Are you taking on students? ----------------------------------- It seems to me that a theoretical understanding of what is true is also a theoretical understanding of what is false. And so I can't see a theoretical possibility of there being anything other than dhammas, can you? I can't see how there could be a creator god or a controlling self, even in theory. Those things just don't add up anymore. -------------------------------------------------------- H: > What you call rite and ritual is not what the Buddha called rite and ritual. Please read about rite and ritual in the suttas. Examples of that are "Fasting, sleeping on the ground, and such, Dawn ablutions, chanting Vedic texts, Garb of skins, matted hair and filth, Magic spells and rites and penances, Trickery, deception, blows as well, Ritual washing, rinsing of the mouth, These are caste-marks of the Brahman-folk, Done and practiced for some trifling gain," and dog-duty asceticism, and bathing in the "Holy Ganges" - these are the sorts of things he referred to. -------------------------------------------------------- I see those things as descriptions a paramattha dhamma. They describe silabbataparamasa, which is a form of miccha ditthi. You seem to think that only extreme conventional practices lack efficacy. That would mean that other conventional practices did not. So where would the cut-off point be? What would make belief in the efficacy of dog-duty asceticism different from belief in the efficacy of (for example) donating requisites to a monastery? Wouldn't it be more sensible to say that belief in the efficacy of any concept (anything that was not citta, cetasika or rupa) was wrong view? In that case, the Buddha's references to dog-duty and the like would be seen as descriptions of wrong view. Ken H #106614 From: "nori" Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations norakat147 Hi Vince, Sorry for the late reply; I have been busy lately. V:"according D.O. there is not dependence but co-dependence. > > "from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from > consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html" Yes, this is what I am referring to. Regards, Nori #106615 From: "nori" Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations norakat147 Hi Ken O, Nori: I was trying to raise discussion on the idea some hold that rupa-matter-form-objects are dependent upon consciousness/ mind in some way to exist. KO: Could you share more on this as I am not clear on this point. --- Thanks for sharing your comments and references. I was referring to the D.O. sequence steps: naamaruupa vi~n~naa.na; vi~n~naa.na naamaruupa. The point I was contemplating is that if there was some sort of mutual dependence, then the naamaruupa should be effected when the vi~n~naa.na is effected by death of the 'individual'. Yet we observe people/'individuals' dying all the time with no apparent effect to naamaruupa. However, I admit this example may be shortsighted. Regards, Nori #106616 From: "Rob" Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 2:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > > > Hi Rob, > > You wrote: > > > Rob: I would think so, that the jhanas are certainly possible. I have read some excerpts of commentaries by Bhikkhu Bodhi and others who describe the processes and factors as if from first hand experience. > > > Kevin: I think Bodhi writes based on accepted Theravadin material. > > > All the best, > > Kevin Hi Kevin, I am confident that he does so. Bhikkhu Bodhi is one of the sources I have come to trust. He has written about developing concentration and absorption in a way that makes me think he has a solid academic understanding, both literal and theoretical, as well as experience. That is my take, right now. palms together, robin #106617 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 3:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? farrellkevin80 Hi Rob, Rob: I am confident that he does so. Bhikkhu Bodhi is one of the sources I have come to trust. He has written about developing concentration and absorption in a way that makes me think he has a solid academic understanding, both literal and theoretical, as well as experience. That is my take, right now. palms together, robin Kevin: Hi Rob. I think Bhikkhu Bodhi has a very good academic understanding about samatha and jhanas, but I don't think he meditates. Unfortunately, he suffers from a condition where he gets very bad migrane headaches, and I don't think he meditates because of that. I know he gets treatment for the headaches and I remember reading somewhere (sorry I can't recall off-hand where) that he doesn't meditate because of them. I may be wrong though... Kevin #106618 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/7/2010 8:38:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: You seem to think that only extreme conventional practices lack efficacy. That would mean that other conventional practices did not. So where would the cut-off point be? What would make belief in the efficacy of dog-duty asceticism different from belief in the efficacy of (for example) donating requisites to a monastery? ================================ There is a valid point in what you are saying here. Most generally, the clinging to rite & ritual is a clinging to the belief that merely "going through the motions" of some practice will have salutary effect and also rhe clinging to the belief that activities that do not involve conditions that have a bearing on the desired result will, nonetheless, if carried out, still yield that result. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106619 From: "Rob" Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 3:39 am Subject: Re: Jhana still possible? / useful rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > Robin: here are also the three famous Theravadin tradition meditation manuals. > > Kevin: Maybe they have attained jhana, maybe not. I don't know. What three manuals do you speak of Rob? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Visuddhimagga, Vimuttimagga, and Patisambhidamagga. > Rob: The fact that the authors of these works describe the jhanas in some detail, and add concepts not found in the suttas, implies that the authors have attained them? That instructions are included implies it is possible for others to apply them? > > Kevin: Personally,. I wouldn't jump into thinking that these things imply that people have attained them or that others can. I see no reason to be attached to the view that they have, or to assume they have not. I simply tend to think, right now, that they did and people can. I could change my mind. I have learned to live with a sense of ambiguity. I am not really agnostic in the literal sense; I think it is possible to know. There are many things I do not know, some things I suspect, things I trust but do not yet fully understand, and a few things I know with some degree of certainty. Pivot. ? for anyone: Someone else, KO?, if i recall correctly, suggested that Virtue is required for samatha. I think that is another thread; but is related. I took it that Samatha is being equated with the process to do Appana Samadhi; with the jhanas? In other words, is samatha a collective word for preliminary, access, and attained / fixed concentration? Or maybe the result thereof? Both? My translations, right now, would be: Samatha: Calm abiding Parikamma Samadhi: Preliminary concentration. Upachara Samadhi: Access or neighborhood concentration Appana Samadhi: Attained & fixed concentration Jhana: Meditative absorption. I am curious what is meant by Virtue. I have come across two words: Punna: I usually see this translated as merit. I take it to mean 'good kamma' or vipaka earned, achieved, or acquired by developing and maintaining wholesome cetanas; while restraining and abandoning unwholesome cetanas. Guna: I would tentatively translate this as virtue. It appears to mean a kind of natural or effortless goodness as an attribute of a sage-saint; not an affectation. #106620 From: "Rob" Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 4:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > Robin: I am confident that he does so. Bhikkhu Bodhi is one of the sources I have come to trust. He has written about developing concentration and absorption in a way that makes me think he has a solid academic understanding, both literal and theoretical, as well as experience. That is my take, right now. > > palms together, > > robin > > Kevin: Hi Rob. I think Bhikkhu Bodhi has a very good academic understanding about samatha and jhanas, but I don't think he meditates. Unfortunately, he suffers from a condition where he gets very bad migrane headaches, and I don't think he meditates because of that. I know he gets treatment for the headaches and I remember reading somewhere (sorry I can't recall off-hand where) that he doesn't meditate because of them. > > > I may be wrong though... > > Kevin > That is interesting. I have a neurological disorder that causes severe migraines, tinnitus, disequilibrium, and vertigo. I abandoned breath meditation immediately, years ago, as it triggered very bad attacks. By 2003, the condition was to the point I could not walk. I had spent a small fortune on medical diagnoses and treatments, but it only got worse. Since then, I have made gradual but considerable progress. I am getting the vibe that discussing the experience / the how, might be frowned upon here? If so, no problem. I am here to learn what I can about Buddhism. From an earlier thread: > Rob: I have read that one not should not boast about attainments; and that if a monk lies about them that would be a grave offense. > > Kevin: If a monk knowingly lies about attainment to anyone he commits an unrepairable offense. The only action he can take is disrobe, and he must. If he tells other bhikkhus and it is true, then it is OK. If he tells laypeople and it is true, it is also an offense, but not of the same class; it can be repaired That is also interesting. I have taken no vows, not lay and certainly not monastic, that are binding in any way. I joined a Buddhist group years ago, and took their lay vows; but we long since cheerfully parted way. In that sense, I am not really a Buddhist; I do not belong to a formal Sangha. Is it considered offensive for lay followers and/or informal Dhamma seekers to discuss their practices and the results; benefits or difficulties? palms together robin #106621 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 4:32 am Subject: Re: Character encoding ptaus1 Hi all, Part 4 - how to change your encoding to Unicode manually in the browser. The idea is to use Unicode (UTF-8) as the default encoding here on the list because it is slowly becoming the international standard, as well as making it easier on everybody, especially when it comes to Pali diacritics. Here are the instruction for Firefox and Internet Explorer. In Firefox: 1. Click on "View", which is in the top menu of the Firefox window, in the left corner, comes after "File" and "Edit". 2. When you click on it, you should get a drop-down menu, where one of the options will be "Character Encoding". Put your mouse over it (so don't click on it). 3. When you put your mouse over it, you should get another drop-down menu, where "Unicode (UTF-8)" should be one of the options. Click on Unicode (UTF-8) and it should get a tick next to it - your page is now in Unicode character encoding. Although your page is now in Unicode, if your browser is set to automatically detect the encoding of a newly loaded page, then your encoding is likely to change every time a new page is loaded with a different encoding. If you want to stop it so that you can have your browser always in the same encoding that you have manually set (like Unicode), this is how to stop it: Repeat steps 1 and 2. 3. When you put your mouse over "Character Encoding", you should get another drop-down menu, where "Auto-Detect" should be one of the options - usually the first one in that menu (Unicode will be further down in the same menu). 4. Put your mouse over "Auto-Detect" (so don't click on it) and when you do that, you will get another drop-down menu where "(Off)" will be one of the options (usually the first one). Click on it, and it should get a tick next to it, and your auto-detection is now switched off. Then click on Unicode to set is as deafult, if you haven't done so before. In Internet Explorer: 1. Click on "View", which is in the top menu of the Internet Explorer window, in the left corner, comes after "File" and "Edit". 2. When you click on it, you should get a drop-down menu, where one of the options will be "Encoding". Put your mouse over it (so don't click on it). 3. When you put your mouse over it, you should get another drop-down menu, where "Unicode (UTF-8)" should be one of the options. Click on Unicode (UTF-8) and it should get a dot next to it - your page is now in Unicode character encoding. Although your page is now in Unicode, if your browser is set to automatically detect the encoding of a newly loaded page, then your encoding is likely to change every time a new page is loaded with a different encoding. If you want to stop it so that you can have your browser always in the same encoding that you have manually set (like Unicode), this is how to stop it: Repeat steps 1 and 2. 3. When you put your mouse over "Encoding", you should get another drop-down menu, where "Auto-Select" should be one of the options - usually the first one in that menu (Unicode will be further down in the same menu). If it has a tick next to it, that means that it's enabled, so to disable it - just click on it and the tick should disappear. Your auto-selection is now switched off. Then click on Unicode (UTF-8) to set is as default, if you haven't done so before. Next time, we'll talk about input and keyboard layouts. Best wishes pt #106622 From: Vince Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 5:01 am Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations cerovzt@... Hi nori you wrote: > Sorry for the late reply; I have been busy lately. > V:"according D.O. there is not dependence but co-dependence. >> >> "from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from >> consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form" >> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html" > Yes, this is what I am referring to. ok, so at least I understand it is also finally inhabiting Abhidhamma. I had some productive discussions about this issue here, and now I understand there is not contradiction. However you cannot ask me on details because I don't have enough knowledge of Abhidhamma processes. Ask Nina and others. In thread "Re: [dsg] Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1)" you can read Sarah Abbot asked same thing to Sujin in Bangkok: "Sarah: She also replied that consciousness(citta) and nama (cetasika) arise together." best wishes. Vince. #106623 From: si-la-nanda Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 4:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? silananda_t Hi, Saddha, Viriya, Sati, Samadhi, Panna ... >> The 5 balancing faculties, indriyas mahakaruna, ~silananda On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 2:16 AM, Ken O wrote: > > > Dear silananda > > What are the factors that condition concentration and develop > concentration? > > Kind regards > Ken O <...> #106624 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 12:07 am Subject: Doubt & Uncertainty... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Doubt and Uncertainty Perplex the Mind! A Brahmin once asked the Blessed Buddha: Master Gotama, what is the cause of being unable to remember something that has been memorized over a long period? The blessed Buddha answered: Brahmin, when mind is perplexed by doubt & uncertainty, undecided, baffled wavering and wobbling by doubt & uncertainty, and one does not understand any actual safe escape from this arisen states mental doubt & uncertainty, then one can neither see, nor ever understand any of what is advantageous, neither for oneself, nor for others, nor for both oneself and others! Then, consequently, what have been long memorized, cannot be remembered? Why is this neglect & amnesia so? Imagine a bucket of water that is muddy, unclear, cloudy, blurred and dark. If a man even with good eye-sight were to inspect the reflection of his own face in it, he would neither see, nor ever recognize it, as it really is! So too, brahmin, when mind is confused by doubt & uncertainty, baffled, bewildered and hesitating by doubt & uncertainty, on such occasion even things that have been long memorized, cannot recur to the mind, not to speak of those texts, events and important information, that have not been memorized at all? On how to prevent Skeptical Doubt & Uncertainty (Vicikicch a): Systematic Attention to scrutinizing investigation, examination & probing: 1: What is advantageous and what is detrimental here? 2: What is blameable and what is blameless in this situation? 3: What is ordinary and what is excellent in this particular case? 4: What is on the bright side and what is on the dark side in this aspect? Doubt, Uncertainty, Hesitation & Vexation leads to Frustrating Perplexity! Doubt stupefies action since decision to choose any alternative is blocked. <...> Vexation, Hesitation, Confusion and Painful Perplexity... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:123-4] section 46: The Links. 55: To Sangarava... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #106625 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 7:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? / useful nilovg Dear Kevin, Robin, Alex, Op 8-apr-2010, om 1:02 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > Kevin: If a monk knowingly lies about attainment to anyone he > commits an unrepairable offense. The only action he can take is > disrobe, and he must. If he tells other bhikkhus and it is true, > then it is OK. If he tells laypeople and it is true, it is also an > offense, but not of the same class; it can be repaired ------ N: I just heard on a recording that Kh. Sujin said that if a monk speaks about his attainment of jhaana or magga (lokuttara), he has an offense of apatti paraajika. I do not know more details. Kh Sujin also spoke about Gradual Sayings, Book of the Nines, IV, 421, Jhaanasutta. Here someone attains enlightenment with jhaana as base. It does not say that jhaana leads to enlightenment. It speaks about insight: when he emerges from jhaana he has to investigate the five khandhas, ruupa etc. and realize these as impermanent, non-self. Thus someone who has attained jhaana has to develop insight as well. Robin asked about the benefit of jhaana and I should mention the following. A person who has not developed jhaana and attains enlightenment has lokuttara magga-citta and then two phalacittas which experience nibbaana. Then these cittas fall away. He will not experience nibbaana again, unless it is time for reaching a further stage of enlightenment. Someone who has developed jhaana and attains enlightenment has conditions for the arising again of phalacitta, many times in life. He can experience nibbaana again and again. This is called phala-samaapatti. Robin is interested in chanting, and I want to ask Kevin: is there any monastery where Abhidhamma is chanted? Kh Sujin mentioned once that at a cremation Abhidhamma texts are chanted, and I want to know which ones. Is it about aniccaa? --------- Nina. #106626 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 7:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? nilovg Dear Kevin and Robin, Op 8-apr-2010, om 5:21 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > Unfortunately, he suffers from a condition where he gets very bad > migrane headaches, and I don't think he meditates because of that. > I know he gets treatment for the headaches and I remember reading > somewhere (sorry I can't recall off-hand where) that he doesn't > meditate because of them. ------- N: Because of his sinus condition he is unable to have as subject mindfulness of breathing. Nina. #106627 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 7:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? nilovg Dear Robin, Op 8-apr-2010, om 6:10 heeft Rob het volgende geschreven: > That is interesting. I have a neurological disorder that causes > severe migraines, tinnitus, disequilibrium, and vertigo. I > abandoned breath meditation immediately, years ago, as it triggered > very bad attacks. By 2003, the condition was to the point I could > not walk. I had spent a small fortune on medical diagnoses and > treatments, but it only got worse. Since then, I have made gradual > but considerable progress. I am getting the vibe that discussing > the experience / the how, might be frowned upon here? If so, no > problem. I am here to learn what I can about Buddhism. -------- N: No, not frowned upon at all. We talk here about disease, about situations, and that is all about Dhamma in daily life. Dhamma should not be separated from daily life. Nina. #106628 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 9:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? ashkenn2k Dear Silananda S: Saddha, Viriya, Sati, Samadhi, Panna ... I like to said that according to the suttas, there should be virture also. So it is not that simple as just doing concentration (samadhi) for jhanas. Also in the facuties, there are sense control (sati) and panna should also be developed Visud chapter 1, pg 5 <<"When a wise man, established well in virture, Develops consciousness and understanding, Then as a bikkhu ardent and sagacious He succeeds in disentangling this tange" (S,i.13)>> "If there is no sense control, o monks, then the basis for virtue is destroyed for one who lacks sense control. If there is no virtue, then the basis for right concentration is destroyed for one who lacks virtue. If there is no concentration, then the basis for knowledge and vision of things as they really are is destroyed for one who lacks concentration." [AN VI, 50] Kind regards Ken O >From: s??l?]anda >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thursday, 8 April 2010 12:26:23 >Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? > > >Hi, > >Saddha, Viriya, Sati, Samadhi, Panna ... >>> The 5 balancing faculties, indriyas > >mahakaruna, >~silananda > >On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 2:16 AM, Ken O wrote: > >> >> >> Dear silananda >> >> What are the factors that condition concentration and develop >> concentration? >> >> Kind regards >> Ken O ><...> > > #106629 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 10:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality sarahprocter... Dear Alex, In #106515, you asked a few dozen questions!! Part 1 --- On Sun, 4/4/10, truth_aerator wrote: >>S: As Ken H has been saying, I think it's a lot easier for simple >worldlings like us to read paramattha language without >misunderstanding than it is to read Suttas in conventional language! A:> Can "paramattha language", being language made by the mind, be non-conceptual and true? ... S: Any language is conceptual. However, that language can represent realities or concepts or a combination of the two. ... A:> Do little children who were not taught concepts yet perceive paramattha dhamma? .... S: Everyone pereceives or experiences paramattha dhammas, but usually in ignorance. For example, seeing always sees visible object, but usually it's taken for something, regardless of what concepts have been taught. .... A:> How can they, being unburdened with clumsy concepts, not perceive the omni-present ultimate realities? ... S: Avijja! Even without words or conceptual terms, there are nimitta-anupyanjanna (signs and details) of what has been seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched. .... A:> What is a concept? Something that is made known by the mind's conceptualizing activity? ... S: Yes, an idea of a reality or other concepts. Any kind of idea whatsoever, not necessarily in any words. When the object of citta is not a reality, it's a concept. Metta Sarah ======= #106630 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 10:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality sarahprocter... Dear Alex, Part 3 --- On Sun, 4/4/10, truth_aerator wrote: A:> I have read an interesting lecture where the famous teacher has said something like: "don't be aware of sound or color, as this leads only to concentration. Be aware of hearing or seeing, this will lead to vipassana instead." ... S: This is all wrong view and not the path as taught by the Buddha ... A:> and "in vipassana you discern ever changing namarupa rather than static conceptual objects created by the mind". ... S: without the beginning understanding of namas and rupas, of sound and hearing, for example, it's impossible that there can ever be the understanding of the impermanence of any nama or rupa. ... A:> Well, it leads to certain questions: a) What is the difference between sound & color vs rupa (as in namarupa)? ... S: I don't understand the question. What do you mean here by "namarupa"? I think the point is seriously erroneous from the start, so will pause here. Metta Sarah ========== #106631 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 10:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, part 1 --- On Sun, 4/4/10, Ken O wrote: >>S: ...What is being stressed is that there are only dhammas - only cittas, cetasikas and rupas. This is also true when we conventionally refer to listening and reading dhammas. In the truest sense, when the Buddha refers to suta-maya panna, citta-maya panna and bhavana-maya panna, it is not to any activities, but to panna that is being referred to. >KO:?? Isnt cetana is also a dhamma, a cetsikas.?? I always said panna is the most impt, but panna can only understand not act or interest.? Can citta maya or bhanva maya panna acts or the act is cetana. ... S: Yes, cetana is a dhamma. Cetana arises with every citta. So at moments of any kind of understanding, cetana also arises, performing its function of co-ordinating other dhammas and 'willing' dhammas too. Cetana is not an eightfold path factor, however. If you wish to call moments of panna arising (assisted by cetana and all the other sobhana cetasikas at that moment, of course) as 'action' or 'activities', that's up to you. ... >>S: Another straw man argument. No one has said that "all convention(al) action is wrong". Again, there are just dhammas now, no matter what we refer to in terms of concepts. Again, I believe you've been missing the point. ... >KO:??Wow,?two straw man now.?? ... S: :-)) ... >KO: Definitely there are dhammas now,?only with?the countless sense and mind door processes,?we are able to listen.?And without dhammas we cannot act?or see, taste etc.? ?You said No one has said that "all convention(al) action is wrong" - are you sure that is not what I know of.?because your statement?is not consistent as I alway saw email that states no action. ... S: You are thinking about a long story about "countless sense and mind door processes", about actions and activities and then considering what activities are useful or not useful. None of this has anything to do with the direct understanding of realities now, the Buddha's word. .... >>S: And whether chanda arises or not has nothing to do with any "choice". >KO:???How does you have an interest in Buddha just panna only or is it because of chanda with panna.??Isnt that interest a choice condition by dhamma. ... S: Interest or chanda is not a choice. It's a common wholesome or unwholesome cetasika which arises by conditions with the citta, taking an interest in the object which appears at that moment. So whether it's an interest in this or that kind of food, this or that visible object, it's just a conditioned dhamma. If you want to argue that this is what you mean by choice, fine, last word to you (as Han would say!). ... >>S: Moments of right view are kusala and moments of wrong view are akusala. When there is any idea of control or choice in an absolute sense whatsoever, it's wrong. >KO:? Meditation must be control,?that is your assumption?which is not consistent with?Visud. ? It can be as also like reading and listening?:-) .? ... S: No this is not my assumption. My assumption is mis-understanding of bhavana (meditation or mental development) is when there is any idea of control or choice. To read such an assumption into the Vism is to mis-understand the entire message of the Buddha's teaching on anatta. >... >>S: See d) answer above. All the teachings are about anatta whatever we read. >KO:? Nope,? Visud are full of them.? ... S: !! You mean the Vism is full of teachings about atta? ... >KO: Anatta is the characteristic of dhamma.? Development of?anatta comes from the understanding of anatta.?? That?development of the understanding must first requires listening. ... S: So what is 'listening' at this moment? Is it atta or anatta? Is it following an activity or is it referring to conditioned dhammas? Metta Sarah ======= #106632 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 11:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, part 3 --- On Sun, 4/4/10, Ken O wrote: >KO: Can you further your?understanding what is reality now without the listening and reading of dhamma.? You mean that is not a method while recitation is a method :-). ... S: If I think that by opening a Dhamma text now there will be more understanding, then it's a method and wrong. As Nina mentioned, the entire Vism can be read with wrong view. The same applies to all the texts. The listening and studying which the Buddha encouraged (as I referred to before) are the moments of panna. As we know, one word wisely considered and understood is more useful than the entire Tipitaka not wisely considered or understood. See under "Listening" in U.P. - lots of good textual references on this, such as the one from AN I've quoted many times. Again, we have to come closer and closer to the cittas and cetasikas, rather thank continuing to think in terms of a long story about listening, reading and recitation. ...? >>S: Exactly - words, door-ways, conventional terms are all just concepts. The path is the understanding of paramattha dhammas, one at a time, NOW! >So, in the true sense, the seeing and listening come down to wise attention, the understanding of realities only. >... >KO:? Isn't listening a conventional actions?? ... S: One citta at a time. A moment of hearing sound, followed by wise consideration. The Buddha always pointed to the realities. ... >KO: Without concepts would you able to understand paramatha dhammas.? ... S: As we know, there has to be pariyatti before there can be patipatti. So it is the wise considering and understanding of what paramattha dhammas are that leads to the direct understanding. Again, one citta at a time. When we think of dozens and dozens of sense and mind door processes and all kinds of activities, it is not pariyatti. Ok, enough for me. As Phil would say, feel free to re-post anything else, esp. if there are any particular qus I've missed, other than more of the rhetorical ones:-) Your neat point summaries are the easiest for me to respond to. Metta Sarah ====== #106633 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >S: Yes, cetana is a dhamma. Cetana arises with every citta. So at moments of any kind of understanding, cetana also arises, performing its function of co-ordinating other dhammas and 'willing' dhammas too. Cetana is not an eightfold path factor, however. If you wish to call moments of panna arising (assisted by cetana and all the other sobhana cetasikas at that moment, of course) as 'action' or 'activities' , that's up to you. KO:? there are a few functions of cetana, one is co-ordination, the other is result and third is the volition.? If there is no volition, where is there kamma that cause the effect?? There are many cetasikas are also not the in path factor like alobha, adosa, saddha also.? so does that mean they are not important in their functions in development of the path. >... >S: You are thinking about a long story about "countless sense and mind door processes", about actions and activities and then considering what activities are useful or not useful. None of this has anything to do with the direct understanding of realities now, the Buddha's word. >.... KO:? Are you saying that your understanding is?now is just?one mind door process.? Even our understanding of dhamma now is of many mind door process, conventional level, have?these processes?impede our understanding of dhamma.? If that impedes, then there is no salvation.? Buddha never said we cannot do convention actions like listening or meditation, did he? >... >S: Interest or chanda is not a choice. It's a common wholesome or unwholesome cetasika which arises by conditions with the citta, taking an interest in the object which appears at that moment. So whether it's an interest in this or that kind of food, this or that visible object, it's just a conditioned dhamma. If you want to argue that this is what you mean by choice, fine, last word to you (as Han would say!). KO:??? Without interest would there be a choice to learn dhamma.?Chanda is wish to do or desire to act.? Panna dont interest, wish to do or desire to act.? I am not here to said last word, I am here to definite properly the dhamma terms that are used and not to one liking or understanding. >S: No this is not my assumption. My assumption is mis-understanding of bhavana (meditation or mental development) is when there is any idea of control or choice. To read such an assumption into the Vism is to mis-understand the entire message of the Buddha's teaching on anatta. KO:? No, you like to quote me which part of?text said there is meditation?that is written by the Visud does not talk about a?method, a choice?and?actions.? I think you dont understand this statement, no one will, cetana will.? You keep thinking that cetana does not will, that is very wrong >... >S: !! You mean the Vism is full of teachings about atta? KO:? Nope, actions does not perlude atta.? Which text tell you that all actions are atta. pse quote.? I like to know.? I can quote you actions that are not definitely not atta. >... >S: So what is 'listening' at this moment? Is it atta or anatta? Is it following an activity or is it referring to conditioned dhammas? KO:?? Listening is a conditioned dhamma, does that mean listening is always kusala or aksuala.? Just like concentration on an object, does that mean it is kusala or aksuala.? Separate actions from six roots, only when they come together, that is where we have the wrong and right.??So whats wrong with meditation or action,? You mean listening is not a condition action.? Can you listen without action. Kind regards Ken O #106634 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 11:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Dear Ken O part 2 --- On Sun, 4/4/10, Ken O wrote: >>S: 'Natural' means understanding dhammas as anatta. 'Unnatural' means having the illusion that Self can have some say in the matter. KO: If it is natural, why cant pple understanding it right now :-).??Illusion of self is also natural, it is conditioned by miccha ditthi.?? So what is natural.?:-). ... S: :-). I agree that avijja is very natural. Gradually through the development of understanding, panna becomes natural. When there is the attempt to follow 'unnatural' or 'forced' practices in order to develop sati, samadhi and panna, then panna will never become natural. Ditthi becomes natural then:-) ... >>S: It's not just a matter of repeating this but really understanding at this moment what the reality is appearing now. If there is understanding now of seeing or visible object, then there won't be any speculation about methods, reciting, breath, temples or anything else. >KO:? It is not I speculate about methods, it is DSG who are speculate about?methods, recitation etc.? ... S: I thought you were the one who kept talking about methods:-)I don't know who "DSG" is who you keep referring to (there are over 1000 members with different understandings, remember!!), but for my part, I have zero interest in "speculating about methods, recitation etc." It all just leads to more papanca, more proliferation, and no understanding at this moment, as far as I can tell. ... >KO: There is no wrongness in them, the wrongness?only arise when aksuala arise with them.??The wrongess of rules and rituals arise because of miccha ditthi and not beacuse of rules and rituals themselves.? ... S: It is miccha ditthi which leads to the setting of rules and rituals for the path. ... >KO: Isn't Vinaya,? full of rules?? Since?you said?it is all base on understanding, why?Buddha bother to have such rules?:-). ... S: These are rules for the order of the Sangha. They are not rules for lay people to develop satipatthana. Even for the bhikkhus, in the beginning there were no rules at all. Awareness of visible object now doesn't depend on any rule. ....?? >KO: Visuds are full of methods and recitations and breath and examples of disciple using?recitation? to attain enlightement.? ... S: The Vism is full of descriptions of ways of life during which, through the development of panna, people became enlightened. Many of those bhikkhus developed samatha up to the jhanas. This doesn't mean that these are methods and rules to become enlightened. Accumulations only! There is one path only - that of satipatthana. Metta Sarah ============= #106635 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 12:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >S: If I think that by opening a Dhamma text now there will be more understanding, then it's a method and wrong. As Nina mentioned, the entire Vism can be read with wrong view. The same applies to all the texts. >The listening and studying which the Buddha encouraged (as I referred to before) are the moments of panna. As we know, one word wisely considered and understood is more useful than the entire Tipitaka not wisely considered or understood. See under "Listening" in U.P. - lots of good textual references on this, such as the one from AN I've quoted many times. Again, we have to come closer and closer to the cittas and cetasikas, rather thank continuing to think in terms of a long story about listening, reading and recitation. KO:? Definitely that is why I am have telling you, differentiate the reading, listening all these actions from kusala and akusala.? Only with wrong view can a reading of dhamma book?be wrong.? Also definitely Buddha encourage listening, so, is it wrong since it is a conventional action.? It applies both ways including meditation that is why there is miccha samadhi and samma samadhi.??? Can your thinking closer to cittas and cetasikas without conventional understanding that arise through the series of cittas.??? It is not a long story, it is the understanding how these works together that make the understanding firmer.? You also forget to mention that Buddha also encourage his disciples to develop samatha bhavana.? >... >S: One citta at a time. A moment of hearing sound, followed by wise consideration. The Buddha always pointed to the realities. KO:? Can you do one citta at a time now, can you listen in one citta at a time or can listeing happen one citta at a time??? Buddha always point to realities, he also pointed to many different samatha bhavana that leads to realities.? >...... >S: As we know, there has to be pariyatti before there can be patipatti. So it is the wise considering and understanding of what paramattha dhammas are that leads to the direct understanding. Again, one citta at a time. When we think of dozens and dozens of sense and mind door processes and all kinds of activities, it is not pariyatti. KO:? Whatever pali terms you want to use, it is all conventional.??Isnt listening a pariyatti that is a conditioned conventional actions?or you could listen to words in?one sense and one mind door proccess???Then why Buddha taught 40 different samatha bhavana development. Listening and reading text or any samantha bhavana are all conventional actions.? Kind regards Ken O #106636 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 12:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 7-apr-2010, om 17:27 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > N: When a person > is acting in a certain way, it depends on his accumulated > inclinations. It does not mean that all of us have to act in the > same way. > > KO: Yes agree, we do not need to act the same. To me it is rather > unwise to act the same because different people has different > inclinations. There is no rules in the Buddha dhamma, then what > are Vinaya, are they not rules describe and prescribe by Buddha. -------- N: Agreed, there are rules for monks, and if they do not want to follow them, they can just disrobe. They are not forced to keep them, it depends on them whether they want to be a bhikkhu or not. -------- > > Ken O: I wish to clarify that we cannot say there are no rules, if > you look carefully at Visud and substantiate by the commentaries > and even Abhidhamma texts, they are many rules or methods and > practise which are done by ancient masters. We cannot say there no > such things exist. We should say whether we could practise this in > modern days. So we should not base on modern days people and tell > pple there is no such which is there are, but for who and what > conditions and clarify the dhamma and samatha bhavana, and not > claim there is no rules, no methods and no actions and no doing. > We should be precise and differentiate actions from kusala and > akusala. If all conventional actions are wrong, then why one read > and listen to dhamma. ------- N: You have a point here. I notice that a lot of your debates are on rules. I believe that the word or idea of 'rule' can be interpretated in different ways depending on the occasion. True, for samatha there are certain conditions necessary, like living in a suitable monastery, far away from noise. Many conditions are necessary. For vipassanaa listening is a necessary condition, and so is considering, intellectual understanding of naama and ruupa. Instead of using the word rule we can also say: favorable condition. The object of vipassanaa is: citta, cetasika or ruupa as you will agree. It is beyond control what reality appears and can be object of vipassanaa. Here it would be difficult to use the word rule, don't you think? Nina. > #106637 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 12:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >S: :-). I agree that avijja is very natural. Gradually through the development of understanding, panna becomes natural. When there is the attempt to follow 'unnatural' or 'forced' practices in order to develop sati, samadhi and panna, then panna will never become natural. Ditthi becomes natural then:-) KO:? natural or unnatural is based on our personal opinions.??The?correct word is condition.??And did Visud said that?meditation is a force practise?? >... >S: I thought you were the one who kept talking about methods:-)I don't know who "DSG" is who you keep referring to (there are over 1000 members with different understandings, remember!!), but for my part, I have zero interest in "speculating about methods, recitation etc." It all just leads to more papanca, more proliferation, and no understanding at this moment, as far as I can tell. KO:? So now you said this, dinosaurs are the one who said that methods are wrong, I am saying methods are right or wrong depends on whether there is panna or miccha ditthi. . >... >S: It is miccha ditthi which leads to the setting of rules and rituals for the path. S: These are rules for the order of the Sangha. They are not rules for lay people to develop satipatthana. Even for the bhikkhus, in the beginning there were no rules at all. Awareness of visible object now doesn't depend on any rule. KO:?Your statements contradicts.??You said it is miccha ditthi that leads to setting of rules and then you said these are rules for the order of the Sangha.? What are rules for then?? Why did Buddha set them up.? Awareness of an object does not depend on any rule is incorrect, we should say awareness of an object depends on the?citta and the objects that impinge on it.? Just like a strong craving over a pleasant object, one can fixed on that pleasant object and keep repeating the cittas that impinge on that object over a period of time.? So we cannot say there is no rule, there could be repetition of an objects due to lobha or kusala concentration, it is the roots that follow the repetition that make it right or wrong. >S: The Vism is full of descriptions of ways of life during which, through the development of panna, people became enlightened. Many of those bhikkhus developed samatha up to the jhanas. This doesn't mean that these are methods and rules to become enlightened. Accumulations only! There is one path only - that of satipatthana. > KO:??? No doubt there is only one way which is satipatthana which is written in satipatthana sutta but there is samatha bhavana that leads to satipatthana that is also written in the commentary and suttas.? And the object is?concept during jhanas and?using that as a basis to develop insight - that is?also written in commentary.?? And the breathing meditation is a method by numbers, convexion etc, so that is not a method that what is that for, these?are written in the Visud and anapasati commentary. Kind regards Ken O #106638 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 4:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >S: I thought you were the one who kept talking about methods:-)I don't know who "DSG" is who you keep referring to (there are over 1000 members with different understandings, remember!!), but for my part, I have zero interest in "speculating about methods, recitation etc." It all just leads to more papanca, more proliferation, and no understanding at this moment, as far as I can tell. KO:? We have to be clear on how Papanca arise.?? It is because of craving, conceit and ditthi and not because of rules, methods, action or concepts.? Pse see the quote I have written to Alex before.???. pg 50, The Discourse on the Roots of Existence - Commentary <> ** the stated - is about the perversion of perceptions.? In other parts of this comy pg 40 << Thus he says: "He perceives through perversion of perception."? This is the meaning:? He perceives it as beautiful, etc. through a perverted perception springing from unwise reflection.? By this, weak conceiving through craving, conceit, and views is seen>> <> kind regards Ken O #106639 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 10:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? sarahprocter... Hi Dieter, Thanks for joining in the discussion. --- On Sat, 3/4/10, Dieter Moeller wrote: >you provided an interesting summary .. but I missed to find reference to Sankhara Khanda , isn't it the aggregate for imagination? ... S: Yes, this is a good point. All the imagination, all the dreaming is accumulated in sakhara khandha. I like to be reminded of this - all the good and bad tendencies, accumulated by sankhara khandha. Hope you're well now. Metta Sarah ======= #106640 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 10:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations sarahprocter... Hi Nori, Thanks for sharing your contemplations - --- On Sat, 3/4/10, nori wrote: >The observation I wanted to mention is that each day many people die yet the world in regards to the rupa/matter and rupa-sankharas remain unaffected. >So for example, one can believe that their 'minds' are somehow entwined with the rupas/rupa-sankhara s. Yet, I can be in the same room with them when they die, and the rupas/rupa-sankhara s with their loss and passing away remains unaffected, i.e. the world remains unaffected; maybe it has never been affected by their 'minds'; only in the way he 'conceived of it'. >And billions of beings each day pass away and the world remains the same, unaffected by their passing away. >Thoughts are appreciated. ... S: Can we say that we therefore all live in our own worlds - our own worlds of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking? We think we see and experience other people, but really just see visible object and think about what is seen. We think we grieve for those who pass away, but actually just grieve for the loss of our own pleasant feeling? Please elaborate if I've missed your point entirely. I'd like to hear more. Metta Sarah ======== #106641 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 5:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Nina ? >-------- >N: Agreed, there are rules for monks, and if they do not want to >follow them, they can just disrobe. They are not forced to keep them, >it depends on them whether they want to be a bhikkhu or not. >-------- KO:? Force and prescribe is different.??It is prescribe but not force.? if the monks do not follow the prescribe rules, they would be "punished", some are even ask to disrobe.? >------- >N: You have a point here. I notice that a lot of your debates are on >rules. I believe that the word or idea of 'rule' can be interpretated >in different ways depending on the occasion. >True, for samatha there are certain conditions necessary, like living >in a suitable monastery, far away from noise. Many conditions are >necessary. >For vipassanaa listening is a necessary condition, and so is >considering, intellectual understanding of naama and ruupa. Instead >of using the word rule we can also say: favorable condition. >The object of vipassanaa is: citta, cetasika or ruupa as you will >agree. It is beyond control what reality appears and can be object of >vipassanaa. Here it would be difficult to use the word rule, don't >you think? ? KO:? Yes condition is the correct word.? You have a good heart as you like to write dhamma to promote understanding just like AS who also has a good heart and?teach widely to promote the understanding of vipassana bhavana.???? Now the issue??is that?when this?no rule is?being apply to all tipitaka and when dinosaurs?discuss dhamma, this banner of no rules become dhamma and forget that there are samantha bhavana and vinaya.? We should stop using no rules, we should start using conditions.?? Even in paramatha dhamma, i would said there is a fixed order in the conditions as there is a fixed?arrangement that miccha ditthi must arise with lobha or when lobha or dosa arise, moha must arise together with it.??Anatta is not about rules, methods or actions, it is just not self or no exercise control over dhamma.?? ? Do you like to discuss whether all conventional actions are wrong, or there is no action.?To me there is nothing wrong with actions, the wrongness come from akusala cetasikas.? There is no one act, it is cetana that acts.? Do you like to discuss, if you dont wish to.?it is ok. ? ? Kind regards Ken O #106642 From: "ksheri3" Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 4:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? ksheri3 Hi Sarah, > S: Yes, this is a good point. All the imagination, all the dreaming is accumulated in sakhara khandha. > colette: "accumulated in", how about "encapsulated in", or "packaged in" (don't touch that last one, for the time being, packaged in, I'll get to that later in my meditation), but esentially you're suggesting an "aggregate" is being established or already is established and is being stored. HARK, do I hear a person, in the distance, crying out "Alaya-Vijnana"? What situation could this poor person be in to be crying out so painfully? I wonder/ponder, is this person fallen into a crevice and cannot draw himself/herself up out of the crevice, or is the cry more of a moan, a reminder, as if stated by the fantasy creature called THE GHOST OF CHRISTMAS PAST? Does the Alaya-Vijnana come properly labeled i.e. "keep in a cool dry place" or is it like a mason's jar where Home Cookin' is the ritual and the ORAL TRADITION is the label/instructions? You know, they'll pickle anything in China, won't they? Is the act of "pickling" the result of "spirits"? Is it alchemy? Heaven knows, I guess. Actually I'm trying to relate with Nina's past envolvement in this thread and the rest of the gang soooo far ahead of me in this concept since I'm trying to create the wording which manifests the Abhidharma's procedure, in all of the minds participating here. Again, it's just my theories about the MIND-ONLY SCHOOL's conepts, as well as a little "chaos magik", and a little orthodox dogma. Hope ya don't mind! toodles, colette #106643 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 10:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality sarahprocter... Dear Alex, Part 2 --- On Sun, 4/4/10, truth_aerator wrote: A:> The presence of cakkhu-pasada (and other senses) is known by the mind. For example ear-sense cannot know eye-sense. If labels, conventions and thoughts are concepts, then why aren't 5 sense pasada-rupa concepts as well? ... S: Usually, only concepts about 5 sense pasada-rupas are experienced as you suggest. However, when panna is developed, the reality of the rupa, cakkhu-pasada, can be directly known in the subsequent mind-door process after the sense-door process in which it was the base for seeing. This is in the same way that any rupas other than the rupas experienced through the senses can be directly known. The Buddha and his followers who had developed keen understanding could know all these realities. Without eye-sense now, there could be no seeing. Remember there has to be the coming together of the various ayatanas. ... A:> Isn't any word (be it about dhamma or pannati) just a linquistic conception, Vijjamana pannatti ? ... S: Pannatti are not just "linguistic conception". In a dream, the objects of the cittas are concepts. Most of the day we live in dreams. So do small infants without any language. ... >Isn't all the talk about conditionality, 89/121 dhammas, etc just another conceptual system? Any word is a linguistic pointer. ... S: Yes, concepts about dhammas, with or without any (conceptual) right understanding. ... A:. Analysing things into parts (that generally do not exist by themselves), is as much mental activity as making wholes out of parts (synthesis). Both are mental activities of deduction and induction. .... S: Thinking is thinking, regardless. As you suggest, not the understanding of realities. However, there can be wise and unwise thinking. Metta Sarah ======= #106644 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 9:28 pm Subject: Re: Jhana still possible? / vinaya truth_aerator Dear Nina, Robin, Kevin, all >Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Kevin, Robin, Alex, > Op 8-apr-2010, om 1:02 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > > > Kevin: If a monk knowingly lies about attainment to anyone he > > commits an unrepairable offense. The only action he can take is > > disrobe, and he must. If he tells other bhikkhus and it is true, > > then it is OK. If he tells laypeople and it is true, it is also an > > offense, but not of the same class; it can be repaired > ------ > N: I just heard on a recording that Kh. Sujin said that if a monk > speaks about his attainment of jhaana or magga (lokuttara), he has >an offense of apatti paraajika. I do not know more details. If a monk untruthfully declares his attainments (of jhana) or awakening to the laity, it is Parajika (defeat). If a monk truthfully declares his attainments (of jhana) or awakening to the laity, it is only a minor offense. "8. Should any bhikkhu report (his own) superior human state, when it is factual, to an unordained person, it is to be confessed." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc1/bmc1.ch08-1.html#Pc8 "The meaning of superior human state is discussed at length under Pr 4. In brief, it covers (a) jhana, (b) the cognitive powers that can arise as its result, and (c) the transcendent attainments." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc1/bmc1.ch04.html#Pr4 > Kh Sujin also spoke about Gradual Sayings, Book of the Nines, IV, > 421, Jhaanasutta. Here someone attains enlightenment with jhaana >as base. It does not say that jhaana leads to enlightenment. In DN29(Pasadika sutta) it is said that 4 Jhanas lead to 4 stages of sainthood (stream entry -> arhatship) As to requirement of Jhana: 1) N8P is required for stream entry and higher 2) N8P contains samma-samadhi 3) Samma-Samadhi is explained as 4 Jhanas Therefore Jhanas are required. With metta, Alex #106645 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 9:46 pm Subject: Re: Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Kevin, Nina, all, > sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Part 3 > > --- On Sun, 4/4/10, truth_aerator wrote: > A:> I have read an interesting lecture where the famous teacher has said something like: "don't be aware of sound or color, as this leads only to concentration. Be aware of hearing or seeing, this will lead to vipassana instead." > ... > S: This is all wrong view and not the path as taught by the Buddha > ... The idea as I understand it is that if one focuses on color, then it turns into kasina meditation (which is one of those practices that supposedly doesn't lead to awakening, yet the pragmatic Buddha who never tried to teach what is useless for Nibbana, taught it for some strange reason known only to Him.) > A:> and "in vipassana you discern ever changing namarupa rather than static conceptual objects created by the mind". > ... > S: without the beginning understanding of namas and rupas, of sound and hearing, for example, it's impossible that there can ever be the understanding of the impermanence of any nama or rupa. > ... > A:> Well, it leads to certain questions: > a) What is the difference between sound & color vs rupa (as in namarupa)? > ... > S: I don't understand the question. What do you mean here by >"namarupa"? I think the point is seriously erroneous from the start, >so will pause here. What some vipassana teachers say is that one shouldn't take conceptual "samatha" objects (such as color, used in color-kasinas for example) for meditation as one needs to study the ever-changing namarupa with its 3 characteristics. OK. But all things, including Samatha subjects, are included in namarupa - and it never occurred to me that constructed objects are permanent, un-caused and ultimately happy. That is what I've meant in those points. >A: What is a concept? Something that is made known by the mind's >conceptualizing activity? >S: Yes, an idea of a reality or other concepts. Any kind of idea >whatsoever, not necessarily in any words. When the object of citta >is not a reality, it's a concept. Aren't most of 28 derived rupas, concepts? For example: gender (itthibhava rupa or purisabhava rupa). It is conceptual if we view from non-conceptual POV. It cannot be seen, heard, smelled, tasted or touched. It is convention put on certain kinds shapes (mental activity since eye sees only color) and is an idea "a man, or a women". As to cognized color, sound, smell, taste, touch - there is nothing given in those bare cognitions that differentiates one gender from another. Similar with some other rupas (like kaya-vinnatti & vaci-vinnatti rupa). They appear to me to be conceptual, requiring mental interpretation and lots of concepts. If you don't know the language of the other person unemotionally speaking to you, then you can't understand what the other person says to you. The same gesture can mean different thing in different cultures (sometimes a common gesture in one culture can be seen as an insult in another). With metta, Alex #106646 From: "Rob" Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: I don't understand the question. What do you mean here by "namarupa"? I think the point is seriously erroneous from the start, so will pause here. > > Metta > > Sarah > ========== > Can you explain namarupa? Does nama mean the same as name, an appellation? I think the ma is from man, indicating mind or brain? So naman, or name, is a provisional designation created by the mind? I understand rupa means form, which can be concrete or abstract? By abstrsct, I mean that we can 'see' form in our mind; like the mental imagery in a poem. I would take form to be the general shape, color, texture, and so on; or a set of characteristics that we perceive as an individual object. The Chinese word for Rupa literally means color, fwiw. I think the Indic word means shape. Is rupa an approximate synonym of kaya? with metta, robin #106647 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 10:19 pm Subject: 1,2,3 => Success! bhikkhu.sama... Daily Words of the Buddha for 9 April 2010 The Blessed Buddha once said: Sabbapa-passa akaranam, kusalassa upasampada-, sacittapariyodapanak - etam buddha-na sa-sanam. 1: Harmless, 2: Good and 3: Pure: Avoiding all Harm; Doing only Good; Purifying own Mind; So all Buddhas teach! Dhammapada 183 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sama-hita _/\_ Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #106648 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 5:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Howard, -------------- <. . .> H: > There is a valid point in what you are saying here. Most generally, the clinging to rite & ritual is a clinging to the belief that merely "going through the motions" of some practice will have salutary effect and also the clinging to the belief that activities that do not involve conditions that have a bearing on the desired result will, nonetheless, if carried out, still yield that result. -------------- As you say, those are the generally accepted meanings of 'clinging to rite and ritual.' (Or, as I prefer to call it, 'belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual.') However, the Dhamma goes much further than that. All conventional things are ultimately illusory, and, therefore, belief in the ultimate efficacy of *any* of them is wrong belief - wrong view. This seems like basic logic to me, so I don't know how there can be any argument. If we accept the proposition that there are only dhammas, then it naturally follows that concepts have no ultimate reality. As they say in your country: it's a no-brainer! :-) Ken H #106649 From: "nori" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 6:50 am Subject: Re: Hello norakat147 Hi Robin, Would you know any links or sources where I can hear Metta Sutta (from Tipitaka?) chanted melodically? I would like to hear it, especially, if it is the way that it has been chanted from a long time ago. Or any other authentic chants... With Metta, Nori Robin: > I was pleased to find out that Theravadins do some devotional chanting. I am leaning to chant / recite / sing the Metta Sutta, the Chant of Metta, and the Jaya Mangala Gatha. #106650 From: "nori" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations norakat147 Hi Sarah, Good to see, you seem well again. > S: Can we say that we therefore all live in our own worlds - our own worlds of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking? --- No, you are right on the point. We live in our own worlds, and without a doubt vi~n~na.na and the seen, heard, etc. has a close interdependence. My contemplation is - what is the nature of any co-dependence, if it relates to things existing 'out there' independently? vi~n~na.na to (those things). --- S:"We think we see and experience other people, but really just see visible object and think about what is seen." I think I see what you are saying; but also am contemplating the issue, which maybe Buddha advises against: contemplating whether there are independently existing things - "out there" and whether vi~n~na.na has some sort of co-dependence or support on them; what is the nature in which we exist; how we (all things) exist. (but maybe futile to ask..) S:"We think we grieve for those who pass away, but actually just grieve for the loss of our own pleasant feeling?" Yes, I agree. Thanks for comments. With Metta, Nori #106651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 9:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations nilovg Dear Sarah, Nori, all, Op 8-apr-2010, om 12:35 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Can we say that we therefore all live in our own worlds - our own > worlds of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and > thinking? We think we see and experience other people, but really > just see visible object and think about what is seen. We think we > grieve for those who pass away, but actually just grieve for the > loss of our own pleasant feeling? -------- N: We cannot be reminded of this enough, of the selfishness there is in mourning. I heard in a Thai recording a good explanation by Kh Sujin of conventional truth, sammutti sacca, and ultimate truth, paramattha sacca. We usually live in the world of sammutti sacca, but when there is awareness we understand what paramattha sacca is. Characteristics of paramattha dhammas appear, like seeing, hearing, and at that moment there is no self or person. We may believe that we see a person, but then there is thinking of sammutti sacca. The thinking is real, but the stories we think of, the persons, these are sammutti sacca. Some people do not want to watch T.V. or read the newspaper, they think that this distracts from the development of understanding. But also when we do not watch T.V. or read the newspaper, we are usually involved in the world of sammutti sacca. We think all the time of a person who sits, stands or walks, of the people around us. Then sammutti sacca is the object of thinking. Pa~n~naa should clearly know the difference between sammutti sacca and paramattha sacca so that the idea of self and person can be abandoned. Through satipa.t.thaana, awareness and understanding of naama and ruupa, the difference can be known. At the moment of right awareness we do not think of a word, but a characteristic appears. Nina. #106652 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 9:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 8-apr-2010, om 19:00 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Even in paramatha dhamma, i would said there is a fixed order in > the conditions as there is a fixed arrangement that miccha ditthi > must arise with lobha or when lobha or dosa arise, moha must arise > together with it. Anatta is not about rules, methods or actions, > it is just not self or no exercise control over dhamma. ------ N: Agreed. Also the cittas in a process follow upon each other according to a fixed order, this is citta niyama. As you say, anattaa means beyond control. --------- > > Ken O: Do you like to discuss whether all conventional actions are > wrong, or there is no action. To me there is nothing wrong with > actions, the wrongness come from akusala cetasikas. There is no > one act, it is cetana that acts. Do you like to discuss, if you > dont wish to. it is ok. ------ N: Perhaps we change the term conventional action, since this may confuse people. We could say: conventional speech about actions. There is nothing wrong with actions, it depends whether these are motivated by kusala citta or akusala citta. The Buddha spoke in conventional language when exhorting people, as we read in the sutta and this is very useful, it is inspiring. Like Ven. Samahita posted today: -------- I was in Thailand at the occasion of Maka Puccha and Kh Sujin read out these words of the Ovada Patimokkha. I found this very inspiring. I quote what I wrote on the Pali list where someone asked about free will: < It is very useful to remember that the Buddha spoke in conventional language and also pointed to paramattha sacca. Recently we studied the sutta about 'it can be done', namely the abandoning of akusala and the developing of kusala. This sutta is a strong exhortation and it can enhance confidence in the Dhamma. This in itself is already a condition for right effort, for kusala viriya to follow up the Buddha's advice. The disciples at the Buddha's time had no misunderstandings and knew that kusala viriya and kusala cetanaa are cetasikas, conditioned dhammas, not belonging to a self. > ----------- Nina. #106653 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 9:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello nilovg Dear Nori, you could try this link: http://www.theravadapgco.org/Liturgy.htm Nina. Op 9-apr-2010, om 8:50 heeft nori het volgende geschreven: > Would you know any links or sources where I can hear Metta Sutta > (from Tipitaka?) chanted melodically? #106654 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 9:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? / vinaya nilovg Dear Alex, There were already long, long debates about this. Would you like to read what is said in Rob K's forum? Nina. Op 8-apr-2010, om 23:28 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > 1) N8P is required for stream entry and higher > 2) N8P contains samma-samadhi > 3) Samma-Samadhi is explained as 4 Jhanas > Therefore Jhanas are required. #106655 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 10:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Nina >------ >N: Perhaps we change the term conventional action, since this may >confuse people. We could say: conventional speech about actions. >There is nothing wrong with actions, it depends whether these are >motivated by kusala citta or akusala citta. >The Buddha spoke in conventional language when exhorting people, as >we read in the sutta and this is very useful, it is inspiring. KO:? Yes conventional speech must be used to teach the dhamma.? But could one listen to dhamma without conventional actions.??? The usual statements I heard is there is no conventional action, then I think how do we listen then.? Could one deny the need of conventional action in developing the path.??Do conventional actions means a wrong view???What are?your thought on this.? Also could we denied there is no samatha bhavana leading to enlightment.? Also?could we say that concepts used by samatha bhavana is not correct, it should not be the way.? Breathing is definitley a samatha object and not nama and rupas in the samatha bhavana development.? The commentarian and Visud pointed it out clearly it is used as conceptual samatha object and not as nama and rupa.?? The more I read the commentarian texts, the?more I have a feeling that?the rejection of concepts as a development is?incorrect.? ?The more I realise it is not the concept that is wrong, it is the cetasikas that follow the concept that is wrong and not the concept itself.? Profileration of thoughts?and perversions of preception arises not because of concept, it is the cetasikas that arise that cause this.?? Satipatthana is?not about?rejecting concepts as a development, it is rather?pointing to the nama that arise with the concept and understand the nama as anicca, dukkha and anatta.? There are also commentarian text?describing ?concepts as a condition for wise reflection, like?reflecting on foul for lovely?being or reflecting on the impermanence on inanimate objects like money.????This reflection is to condition the sanna, sati so as to slowly eradicate perversion of perceptions that arise spontaneously with lovely beings. Kind regards Ken O #106656 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Ken H >------------ -- > >No, because that practice is the Eightfold Path, which is a momentary arising of conditioned dhammas. > >That's what all conditioned reality ultimately is - a momentary arising of dhammas. And so I would never suggest that the Visud and the Vinaya Rules taught anything to the contrary. I would never suggest they taught methods, which are things apart from conditioned dhammas. > >Fortunately, there is no need to make that suggestion. The texts can be understood in a way that is entirely consistent with conditioned reality. > >You don't need a method, Ken, just understand the way things are now. KO:? Why method must meant controlling of dhamma?? Let me quote you an interesting text from the commentary to the Satipatthana.? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html <> ? So does that go against the believe of deliberate action must be wrong, or a method must be wrong.? There is no wrong in the action if there is clear comprehension of that action.? It is?not the controlled action which is a cause of concern, it is the what accompanied the action that is what we should be concern with.? Cheers ? ? Kind regards Ken O #106657 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 11:29 am Subject: Anger. How to stop. szmicio dear friends, How to stop anger? Best wishes Lukas #106658 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 12:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anger. How to stop. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Just as you'd like to be happy and hear kind and gentle words, so would all those around you. Just as we behave badly at times out of ignorance, so do others. By considering others' needs patiently and kindly, metta can and will develop. Their wishes for joy and peace are just like ours. Patience, kindness, generosity and friendship.... Knowing the harm of such kilesa as anger at this moment can be the condition to have more sympathy and understanding for others. It's never the place, person or situation that harms or angers us, it's always the deep-rooted attachment and ignorance which leads to such anger. And what is experienced now? Visible object, sound, smell, taste and tangible object. Which of these are you angry with? Each sight, sound, smell, taste and tangible object falls away instantly. From "Perfections": >"As we read, patience is 'the unimpeded weapon of the good': akusala can be destroyed when one is righteous. When patience arises we have no disturbance, because khanti, patience, cannot harm righteous people. 'Patience is the unimpeded weapon of the good in the development of noble qualities, for it dispels anger, the opposite of all such qualities, without residue'. "< Why not share some of your own wise reflections with us on this subject too, Lukas? Metta and peace Sarah ======== #106659 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 1:12 pm Subject: Re: Anger. How to stop. szmicio Hi Sarah I am happy you answered that, I am also waiting for Nina and others answers. No I am not able to appreciate kusala. But I understand that concepts on good behaviour and concepts on metta are prevailing conditions for kusala. I mean that hearing good Dhamma can be a condition for metta and kusala. That's why I also appreciate Han's and Phil's and others comments. But now this doesnt help me much, sorry I could do nothing with that. I can just leave my mind open for listening to the Dhamma. But if I am not feeling well, with dosa, what can i do with that. I feel hopless. Metta for me is very natural and this rather supprise me sometimes but mostly there'are angers. Actually today I also reflected that people want to be happy as I want to be. But does that mean anything to the anger when it arises. Maybe if I would spent more time with reading Dhamma, but now I dont read and listen to the Acharn's discursess. I feel like a moon that is covered by cloudes more and more. I smiling sometimes of that. Wow Lukas look this is how the man's decadention is. This helps me also to have more metta to people addicted. When they take drugs or drink a lot. They can feel the same. For me reading Dhamma is good, cause this makes me very good and concentrated, so I can say I have my way. But I feel dosa for reading now. I had a lot of issues recently with stong anger and thinking involved. This mind is like a monkey that grabs one branch and takes another. This minds jumpes from one idea to another. This is useless , just thinking but i dont understand that. I think with anger and made opinions, ideas that I am very attached to. No wisdom, just stupid Lukas. I will appreciate all others advises, I feel bad. best wishes Lukas > Just as you'd like to be happy and hear kind and gentle words, so would all those around you. Just as we behave badly at times out of ignorance, so do others. By considering others' needs patiently and kindly, metta can and will develop. Their wishes for joy and peace are just like ours. > > Patience, kindness, generosity and friendship.... Knowing the harm of such kilesa as anger at this moment can be the condition to have more sympathy and understanding for others. It's never the place, person or situation that harms or angers us, it's always the deep-rooted attachment and ignorance which leads to such anger. > > And what is experienced now? Visible object, sound, smell, taste and tangible object. Which of these are you angry with? Each sight, sound, smell, taste and tangible object falls away instantly. > > From "Perfections": > > >"As we read, patience is 'the unimpeded weapon of the > good': akusala can be destroyed when one is righteous. > When patience arises we have no disturbance, because > khanti, patience, cannot harm righteous people. > 'Patience is the unimpeded weapon of the good in the > development of noble qualities, for it dispels anger, > the opposite of all such qualities, without residue'. "< > > Why not share some of your own wise reflections with us on this subject too, Lukas? > > Metta and peace > > Sarah > ======== > #106660 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 1:33 pm Subject: Applying mind to seeing and hearing szmicio Dear friends, Please tell me how to apply the mind to seeing and hearing now. Best wishes Lukas #106661 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 9:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/9/2010 1:40:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, -------------- <. . .> H: > There is a valid point in what you are saying here. Most generally, the clinging to rite & ritual is a clinging to the belief that merely "going through the motions" of some practice will have salutary effect and also the clinging to the belief that activities that do not involve conditions that have a bearing on the desired result will, nonetheless, if carried out, still yield that result. -------------- As you say, those are the generally accepted meanings of 'clinging to rite and ritual.' (Or, as I prefer to call it, 'belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual.') However, the Dhamma goes much further than that. All conventional things are ultimately illusory, and, therefore, belief in the ultimate efficacy of *any* of them is wrong belief - wrong view. ----------------------------------------------------------- All conventional things, and I believe that even includes cittas etc as separate things, are, as the term states, merely matters of convention, though they nonetheless serve as conditions. But that aside, that is not what rite & ritual pertain to. Not all things have the identical meaning. --------------------------------------------------------- This seems like basic logic to me, so I don't know how there can be any argument. ----------------------------------------------------------- I happen to think that everything but nibbana is appearance only, and not reality, so, yes, I believe that all conventional things ultimately illusory, and I take that farther than you in that I consider almost all we deal with as conventional. However, I would not say that I don't see how there can be any argument. I don't see myself as Johnny Carson's Karnac the Magnificent who knows all and sees all! So far, I distinguish between what I strongly believe and what I know. There is very little that I unquestionably know! --------------------------------------------------------- If we accept the proposition that there are only dhammas, then it naturally follows that concepts have no ultimate reality. As they say in your country: it's a no-brainer! :-) ----------------------------------------------------------- But this is not what clinging to rite and ritual is about. That is much more specific, and you are making nothing of it by replacing it by another matter. --------------------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================= With metta, Howard P. S. There are the following that were easy to access: 1) From _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanatiloka/wheel394.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanatiloka/wheel394.html) : Belief in the moral efficacy of mere external rite and ritual (silabbata-paramasa) constitutes, according to the Buddha's teaching, a mighty obstacle to inner progress. One who takes refuge in mere external practices is on the wrong path. For, in order to gain real inner progress, all our efforts must necessarily be based on our own understanding and insight. Any real progress is rooted in right understanding, and without right understanding there will be no attainment of unshakable peace and holiness. Moreover, this blind belief in mere external practices is the cause of much misery and wretchedness in the world. It leads to mental stagnation, to fanaticism and intolerance, to self-exaltation and contempt for others, to contention, discord, war, strife and bloodshed, as the history of the Middle Ages quite sufficiently testifies. This belief in mere externals dulls and deadens one's power of thought, stifles every higher emotion in man. It makes him a mental slave, and favors the growth of all kinds of hypocrisy. The Buddha has clearly and positively expressed himself on this point. He says: "The man enmeshed in delusion will never be purified through the mere study of holy books, or sacrifices to gods, or through fasts, or sleeping on the ground, or difficult and strenuous vigils, or the repetition of prayers. Neither gifts to priests, nor self-castigation, nor performance of rites and ceremonies can work purification in him who is filled with craving. It is not through the partaking of meat or fish that man becomes impure, but through drunkenness, obstinacy, bigotry, deceit, envy, self-exaltation, disparagement of others and evil intentions — through these things man becomes impure." _________________________________ 2) _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.175.than.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.175.than.html) _________________________________ 3) _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thig/thig.12.01.than.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thig/thig.12.01.than.html) ________________________________ 4) _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.176.than.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.176.than.html) #106662 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 2:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Applying mind to seeing and hearing nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 9-apr-2010, om 15:33 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Please tell me how to apply the mind to seeing and hearing now. -------- N: Your question is good and I tell you why. Whenever we ask Kh Sujin about problems we have, be it worry about the future, preparation for the death of one's partner or our own death, or anger we had, she will suggest to attend to the present moment, like seeing. That is always her answer. We tend to think of stories, even when asking about anger we do not like to have. We are mostly in the world of conventional truth. She likes to help us to attend to the ultimate truth, realities appearing now that have characteristics. Then we can see the difference between thinking of stories, and learning about realities. It may seem strange at first, we wonder about her answer, but it works. No person can apply the mind to seeing, no person can try to have less anger. But there can be more understanding of what seeing is, since it arises now. It is different from thinking of persons and things. It experiences only what is visible, nothing else. At least we can consider this more, and at the same time there should be no wish for direct awareness. Not wishing for anything at all, such as having less anger. What comes, has to come because of conditions, but there can be more understanding. If you try to have less anger there may be an idea of self, and instead there may be more aversion when you have no success. As to lack of interest in the Dhamma, also that is conditioned. But you have dsg and you write, so that shows your interest. Take courage, Nina. #106663 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 2:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt scottduncan2 Dear Ken O., Regarding: KO:? Why method must meant controlling of dhamma?? Let me quote you an interesting text from the commentary to the Satipatthana.? "...It is said that Great Elder seated in his day-quarters bent his arm quickly whilst talking to his resident pupils and then after putting back his arm to the position in which it first was, bent it again slowly. The resident pupils questioned him thus: 'Reverend Sir, why, after bending the arm quickly, did you, having placed it in the position in which it first was, bend it slowly?' 'Friends, until now I did not bend this arm with a mind separate from the subject of meditation ever since I began to attend to the subject of meditation. Therefore, having put back the arm in the place it was first in, I bent.' 'Good! Reverend Sir. A bhikkhu should be one who acts thus.' Here, too, it should be understood that the non-abandoning of the subject of meditation is clear comprehension of resort." "So does that go against the believe of deliberate action must be wrong, or a method must be wrong.? There is no wrong in the action if there is clear comprehension of that action.? It is?not the controlled action which is a cause of concern, it is the what accompanied the action that is what we should be concern with." Scott: The point, I think, is the moment of clear comprehension, not the action. The Venerable didn't necessarily bend his elbow and return it to the original position in order to facilitate clear comprehension. I imagine that, while bending his elbow in the course of normal movement he experienced a moment of clear comprehension and was seen by his students as he moved his elbow, absorbed in thinking about his recent momentary experience and piecing it together retrospectively. They asked what he was doing and he explained his experience. These moments of clear comprehension are like that - arising in the middle of things, as it were. He certainly isn't suggesting that one slowly bend and unbend one's elbow in order to facilitate clear comprehension. There is no reason to suggest that his movement was deliberate or methodical, nor that he is recommending a slow-elbow-bending method. Sincerely, Scott. #106664 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 3:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? / vinaya truth_aerator Dear Nina, Rob2K, all, >Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > There were already long, long debates about this. > Would you like to read what is said in Rob K's forum? > Nina. > Op 8-apr-2010, om 23:28 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > 1) N8P is required for stream entry and higher > > 2) N8P contains samma-samadhi > > 3) Samma-Samadhi is explained as 4 Jhanas > > Therefore Jhanas are required. You, or others (Rob2K) are welcome to post specific and brief points. The only point of discussion in the above 3 propositions is the nature of jhana (momentary path factor or long-meditation prior to maggaphala). I also know that Rob2K will post about Netti. Few things he overlooks 1) If it is true that we are dull-witted with weak wisdom 2) Netti classifies that as tanha-carita 3) Tanha Carita follow insight PRECEDED BY SERENITY "43. Both kinds of craving-temperament find the outlet, by way of insight heralded by quiet (samatha) to the heart-deliverance due to the fading of lust" - Netti With metta, Alex #106665 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 3:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Scott > >Scott: The point, I think, is the moment of clear comprehension, not the action. The Venerable didn't necessarily bend his elbow and return it to the original position in order to facilitate clear comprehension. I imagine that, while bending his elbow in the course of normal movement he experienced a moment of clear comprehension and was seen by his students as he moved his elbow, absorbed in thinking about his recent momentary experience and piecing it together retrospectively. They asked what he was doing and he explained his experience. > >These moments of clear comprehension are like that - arising in the middle of things, as it were. He certainly isn't suggesting that one slowly bend and unbend one's elbow in order to facilitate clear comprehension. There is no reason to suggest that his movement was deliberate or methodical, nor that he is recommending a slow-elbow-bending method. > KO: If it is not a deliberate action, why bother to do it again and do it slowly, he can always do it normally :-). He is doing because of clear comprehension as resort. <> <> It is not the action that matters, it is the clear comprehension that matters, the later text on this paragraph <> Cheers Ken O #106666 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 4:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations ashkenn2k Dear Nori > >I was referring to the D.O. sequence steps: naamaruupa vi~n~naa.na; vi~n~naa.na naamaruupa. > >The point I was contemplating is that if there was some sort of mutual dependence, then the naamaruupa should be effected when the vi~n~naa.na is effected by death of the 'individual' . Yet we observe people/'individuals ' dying all the time with no apparent effect to naamaruupa. However, I admit this example may be shortsighted. KO:??the?mutual dependence . ? In the Dispeller of Delusion, vinnana is the resultant citta or rebirth linking cittas.?In the commentary of the Mahanidana?Sutta ? <<"Consciousness is a condition for mentality-materiality in many ways.? How? Rebirth-linking or any other resultant consciousness is a condition in nine ways - as conascence, mutuality, support, kamma result, nutriment, faculty, association, presence and non-disapperance conditions - for resultant mentality.>> <> <> This mutual dependence, condition each other in other types of citta also?and not just in rebirth or resultant cittas. Nori: ?the naamaruupa should be effected when the vi~n~naa.na is effected by death of the 'individual' . Yet we observe people/'individuals ' dying all the time with no apparent effect to naamaruupa. However, I admit this example may be shortsighted. KO:? The citta cognise the "death of the individual", the nama (cetasikas) which arise with citta?also experience the object, is the?effect like feeling of indfference or?sad or some even happy.? The apparent?indifference (nama as cetasikas)?could be due to ignorance of not understanding the danger of the samasara as moha blinds the individual from dukkha and anicca.? As long as one panna is not keen enough, one will likely to be like that, including me. Kind regards Ken O #106667 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 5:14 pm Subject: Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? moellerdieter Hi Sarah, you wrote: (D: 'you provided an interesting summary .. but I missed to find reference to Sankhara Khanda , isn't it the aggregate for imagination?) ... S: Yes, this is a good point. All the imagination, all the dreaming is accumulated in sakhara khandha. I like to be reminded of this - all the good and bad tendencies, accumulated by sankhara khandha. D: yes ..and the interesting point is, that despite the conditioning of those tendendies there is a certain freedom of will by directing the focus for ?ction.. not so say control S: Hope you're well now. D: thanks quite ok , hoping you well too ;-) with Metta Dieter #106668 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 6:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt scottduncan2 Dear Ken O, Regarding: KO: "If it is not a deliberate action, why bother to do it again and do it slowly, he can always do it normally :-)? He is doing because of clear comprehension as resort." Scott: You've missed my point, Ken. I'm suggesting that one can consider the story to be about how he did a sort of double-take after the fact and then the others noticed hime and he told them what had happened to him. I think it's rather concrete to suggest that the slow moving is a method.? Mind you, I'm aware that my own speculations are ridiculous as well, at some level. K: "Resort [gocara]. Literally, pasturing ground. This word is applied to the wandering for alms of a bhikkhu and to the subject of meditation in the sense of the locus [sphere, range or scope) of contemplative action." Scott: I understand gocara to refer to the range of consciousness in relation to its object - a precise and narrow meaning. You've offered a sort of conventional take on the term. I'm not sure that this generalization is warranted, or isn't simply a liberty being taken with the term which can't be supported. You are talking conventionally but I'm not convinced yet that, while the distinction between 'conventional' and 'ultimate' is valid, it is possible to convert everything that is true in the ultimate sense into a conventionally stated equivalent. That being said, there are three ways in which 'gocara' is delineated: 1) upanissaya gocara, 2) arakkha gocara, and 3) upanibandha gocara. You'd have to make it clear in what sense you were meaning to apply the term. K: "Because clear comprehension of resort is just the keeping to the course of meditation, looking straight on and looking away from the front should be done just according to each person's meditation (on the aggregates, processes and bases or on a contemplation-device and so forth) with the thought of meditation uppermost in mind." Scott: No, I still don't agree because here you might as well suggest that it is better to walk slowly and deliberately and mentally label all of one's movements and call this sati. K: "It is not the action that matters, it is the clear comprehension that matters, the later text on this paragraph.." Scott: Here we agree in principle, or at least I've said as much above. But here: K: "Subject of meditation 'The subject of meditation of the elements (modes or processes) that is according to the method about to be stated with the words 'Within there is no soul' and so forth. Within there is no soul that bends or stretches. By the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity, bending and stretching occur. Indeed, here, it should be understood that the knowing in this way is clear comprehension of non-delusion." Scott: You can't be suggesting that all there is to 'clear comprehension' is a simple intellectual understanding of something, can you? If so, it seems to me that there is nothing at all the Dhamma if this is all it amounts to. Anyone can think this way. Sincerely, Scott. #106669 From: "Rob" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 6:56 pm Subject: Re: Hello / Chanting Metta Sutta rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > > Hi Robin, > > Would you know any links or sources where I can hear Metta Sutta (from Tipitaka?) chanted melodically? > > I would like to hear it, especially, if it is the way that it has been chanted from a long time ago. > > Or any other authentic chants... > > With Metta, > Nori > There are some at youtube, in both Pali and English. Buddhist Monks Chant Pali Metta Sutra of Lovingkindness http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV4NuRpOEmo Buddhism - Metta Sutta{The Discourse on Loving Kindness} http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ahAM-BpTSc Karaniya Metta Sutta - Buddhism http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZBlHUL434o There is also the Chant of Metta. I think this may have been composed by Budagosa; but I am not sure on that. Lots of videos, with Imee Ooi's rendition as the soundtrack, can be found at youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5JAVk3Qwi8&feature=related #106670 From: "Rob" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 7:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello / Metta Bhavana rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Nori, > you could try this link: > http://www.theravadapgco.org/Liturgy.htm > > Nina. > Op 9-apr-2010, om 8:50 heeft nori het volgende geschreven: > > > Would you know any links or sources where I can hear Metta Sutta > > (from Tipitaka?) chanted melodically? > > Yes, very good resource. 15 Karaniya Metta Sutta (p 95).mp3 http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Chants/Chants.html to add a little My understanding is that the Metta Sutta and Chant of Metta are ways of suffusing loving kindness into the environment. There is the story that some monks had gone to the forest to meditate during the rainy season. There meditation disturbed some tree pretas; which 'made things go bump in the night.' The Buddha taught the monks to recite the Metta Sutta as a way of pacifying the pretas, by radiating Loving Kindness in the Ten Directions. That is how I remember it. There is also the 4 or 5 or 6 kinds of people metta cultivation. I am pretty sure this was designed by Budagosa? The idea is to develop the heart/mind of metta by centering ourself on good will; then transmitting this to those we admire, our loved ones, neutral people, and those who give us trouble -- then to all beings. That is my understanding. Before I practiced this, I often had to deal with difficult people in my daily life. Now, those same people are very cheerful and helpful. #106671 From: "Rob" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 8:44 pm Subject: Re: Anger. How to stop / with .Metta-Karuna / rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > dear friends, > How to stop anger? > > Best wishes > Lukas > Are you working on cultivating all 4 Brahma-vihara? I am sure this has been discussed here. My understanding: Metta: Loving Kindness, basic good will. The far opposites of this would enmity {vyapada}, dosa {hatred}, patigha {anger}, kupito {hesitance, revolt}, and so on. Kama {lust} would be a near opposite. Karuna: Compassion. To view the pain, suffering, stress, and so on of others as our own. The far opposites would be schadenfreude, cruelty, or sadism. Near opposites would be contemptuous, patronizing or condescending pity. Muditta: There is no English word for this. I take it to mean seeing the joy, bliss, and victories as our own. Being proud of others and gratitude or appreciation for others is close, I think. A far opposite would be envy {issa}. Near opposites might be infatuation, vicarious hero veneration, or doting on someone. Uppeka: Equipoise, equanimity. Bias or favoritism would be the far opposite; while apathy, aloofness, or indifference would be the near opposite. Also, the 4 retraints: 1. Block unwholesome cetanas, like enmity and anger, that have not arisen. 2. Abandon unwholesome cetanas that have already arisen. 3. Cultivate the wholesome that have not arisen; like doing Metta Bhavana. 4. Sustain the wholesome mental states that have arisen. I think cultivation covers all four. If we are thinking about blocking or abandoning anger all the time, our mind is still dwelling on anger. Instead, I think it is better to keep the mind off of what we do not want, like anger; and on what we want -- like kindness and cheerfulness. Of course, it is easier said than done. When I was younger, I used to play golf. One particular water hazard, at my home course where I was a member, plagued me all the time. I kept thinking about avoiding the water. Then I would hit the ball, and splash! Someone told to me to ignore the water, forget about it, keep my mind off of it, and focus my attention on the flag and green instead. I tried that, and voila! The golf ball gently landed right by the cup. Finally, khanti; forbearing patience or tolerance. I understand this to mean to forbear and endure that which does not necessarily deserve our patience. I think many Buddhists are too impatient with, and demanding of, ourselves. We might beat our self up by excessively dwelling on our remorse; shame, and guilt. This can turn into self pity or self loathing. I have been both of those 'places.' Ultimately, maybe we can un-attach ourself from the anger, calmly observe it arising, then let it fall? robin #106672 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 7:53 pm Subject: There are 4 Realizable States! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The 4 Modes of Direct Experience: The Exalted Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these 4 realizable states: What four? By the body one realizes the 8 releasing liberations. By the memory one realizes one's prior lives in all diverse detail. By the divine eye one realizes the death & rebirth of beings. By understanding one realizes elimination of mental fermentation. These, Bhikkhus, are the 4 realizable states... Source: The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya II 182 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=204050 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sama-hita _/\_ Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net 4 x Realizable Release ...!!! #106673 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 11:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ---------- <. . .> KH: > > You don't need a method, Ken, just understand the way things > > are now. KO:> Why method must meant controlling of dhamma?? Let me quote you an interesting text from the commentary to the Satipatthana.? ---------- Don't worry about a quote, Ken, just tell me why you need a method. Have you ever understood the way things are - as described by the Buddha? If you had, you would know an ultimately real world in which there are only conditioned dhammas. That means no people, no computers and no methods. Just conditioned dhammas! Take my word for it, Ken, when you know the world as it really is you lose all interest in conventional ways of knowing it. You can see that there clearly could not possibly be any such ways. ----------------- <. . .> > ". . . Here, too, it should be understood that the non-abandoning of the subject of meditation is clear comprehension of resort." KO: > So does that go against the believe of deliberate action must be wrong, or a method must be wrong.? ------------------ Yes, of course it does. Every word of the Dhamma goes against belief in the efficacy of conventional methods. The Dhamma describes the presently arisen realities and tells us everything we need to know about them. I won't presume to interpret that particular sutta quote, but I suspect it is describing the conditioned dhamma, sati. One way of describing sati would be to refer to the way a jhana meditator holds on to his meditation object - and liken that to sati. ---------------------- KO: > There is no wrong in the action if there is clear comprehension of that action.? It is?not the controlled action which is a cause of concern, it is the what accompanied the action that is what we should be concern with. ----------------------- How can you clearly comprehend an action? Do you mean cetana? There is cetana in every citta. There is cetana now. So how could you possibly think there needed to be some kind of deliberate (conventional) activity for the understanding of cetana? Ken H #106674 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:52 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---------- <. . .> KH: > > All conventional things are ultimately illusory, and, therefore, belief in the ultimate efficacy of *any* of them is wrong belief - wrong view. > > H: > All conventional things, and I believe that even includes cittas etc as separate things, are, as the term states, merely matters of convention, though they nonetheless serve as conditions. ----------- I'll pretend I didn't hear the part about cittas. :-) If we can't agree on the absolute reality of conditioned dhammas, we can't pretend to be discussing the same Dhamma. As for conventional things serving as conditions, well, that's a major hurdle too. If conventional things had any effectiveness - of any kind or to any degree - in ultimate reality, then I can't see how there could be any point in learning about conditioned dhammas. -------------------- H: > But that aside, that is not what rite & ritual pertain to. Not all things have the identical meaning. --------------------- OK, I will keep an open mind about that. If I understand you correctly, the fetter 'belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual' that is completely overcome at Stream-entry, refers only to extremist religious practices (such as dog-duty asceticism). I could believe that, but only if there was another fetter - overcome at some later stage - that covered belief in the efficacy of all concepts. I don't know of any offhand. As for your contention that concepts serve as conditions, I do have an open mind about that. DSG has discussed, hundreds of times, how concepts can be 'object condition' and 'decisive support condition' for dhammas, but that doesn't mean they exist. It is actually dhammas that are doing the conditioning work at those times. ------------ KH: > > This seems like basic logic to me, so I don't know how there can be any argument. H: > I happen to think that everything but nibbana is appearance only, and not reality, so, yes, I believe that all conventional things ultimately illusory, and I take that farther than you in that I consider almost all we deal with as conventional. ------------- Once again, I'll pretend you didn't say that. :-) ------------------------- H: > However, I would not say that I don't see how there can be any argument. I don't see myself as Johnny Carson's Karnac the Magnificent who knows all and sees all! So far, I distinguish between what I strongly believe and what I know. There is very little that I unquestionably know! -------------------------- Hmmm, do the initials SM mean anything to you? :-) -------------------------------------- KH: > > If we accept the proposition that there are only dhammas, then it naturally follows that concepts have no ultimate reality. As they say in your country: it's a no-brainer > > H: > But this is not what clinging to rite and ritual is about. That is much more specific, and you are making nothing of it by replacing it by another matter. -------------------------------------------- OK, that's fair comment. But I don't know why you keep coming back to this "do you have absolute knowledge; are you taking on students" malarky. Ken H #106675 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello sarahprocter... Dear Robin, Many intersting reflections in the following: --- On Tue, 6/4/10, Rob wrote: >First, I think mindfulness, in one the Suttas {AN 4.41}, is listed as the third cultivation of concentration? ... S: Mindfulness is sati cetasika. Sati arises with all wholesome cittas. When it is the development of satipatthana, then the sati is accompanied by panna, right understanding. At such times, the sati is aware of a dhamma, a reality. The sutta you refer to is a difficult one. For example, for "the third cultivation of concentration" you refer to, it says: "And what is the development of concentration that leads to mindfulness and clear comprehension? Here, for a monk feelings are understood as they arise, as they remain present, as they pass away; pereceptions....This is the development of concentration that leads to mindfulness and clear comprehension." (Bodhi transl) This is referring to the concentration which accompanies satipatthana, leading to the vipassana nanas (stages of insight). ... >Right now, I see this as, or a form of, moment-moment concentration {khanika samadhi}. ... S: Ekaggata cetasika (concentration) arises with each citta and is always "moment-moment concentration". It is distinct and different from the characteristic of sati. When the vipassana nanas arise, the (wholesome) concentration is more apparent. ... >I think that concept is from commentaries, not the Suttas? I am curious if another concept from commentaries; the three stages / levels -- preliminary, access / neighborhood, and attained would apply here; or only to Fixed Concentration {Appana Samadhi}. .... S: Sometimes more detail is given in the commentaries and without this we can miss the point of the sutta. For example, the previous concentration in the text is given as that leading to "knowledge and vision" (~naaa.nadassana) and refers to the attending to the perception of light etc. The comy note which B.Bodhi gives clarifies that this is referring to the divine eye, the supernormal power of vision etc. Yes, you're right to refer to khanika, upacara and appana samadhi. Of course, at moments of jhana, the concentration is appana samadhi on account of the intensity. Even so, each citta and accompanying mental factors arising and fall away momentarily. At moments of vipassana nana, as I recall, the (right) concentration accompanying the panna is of upacara intensity. This is why it's apparent at such times and why the concentration and wisdom are said to be yoked. At moments of enlightenment, the concentration is always of the degree of appana. This is why jhana is referred to at such moments. The concentration is the equivalent of jhana concentration. ... >What I am toying with is / are the four frames of mindfulness. Is cattaro satipat.t.hana the correct term? ... S: Yes. Whenever there is right understanding of a dhamma now, it is satipatthana. The four frames refer to all such objects of mindfulness and clear comprehension (sati sampajanna) ... >I see a parallel between the four frames and the first 4 khandas; almost certainly the first two. ... S: The four frames include all khandhas, all realities - all cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Citta and vinnana have the same meaning. .... >Interesting that the 4th cultivation in the Sutta I mentioned appears to be observation of the rising and falling of all 5 khandas? ... S: Directly understanding and penetrating the arising and falling away of the khandhas, one dhamma at a time. Before this, there has to be the direct understanding of namas and rupas over and over again - one at a time. ... >I see a clearer parallel between the 4 vipallasa and the four frames; with the 4th vipallasa {Distortions of subha} perhaps corresponding to the first frame {body}, the 2nd {sukha} to the second {vedana}, the 1st {nicca} to the third {citta}, and the 3rd {self} to the fourth {dhammas}. ... S: That's interesting. The rupas of the body are often mentioned first because we find these so important and as you suggest, take the foul (asubha) for the beautiful (subha). However, this refers not just to the rupas, but to all khandhas. It can be very subtle. Is seeing now asubha or subha? Similarly, with regard to sukha, don't we take visible objects and sounds and tastes for being sukha rather than dukkha? While there is no understanding of dhammas as impermanent, we're bound to take them for sukha. Again, not only cittas, but all dhammas are taken for being nicca because insight hasn't been developed. The same applies to atta - all dhammas are taken for atta by ignorance and wrong view. ... >What I mean by toying is that I am working on the first two; and trying to develop more of a flowing presence of mind / alertness / sensitivity / consideration; as opposed to being robotic, awkward, preoccupied, spacey, or on auto-pilot. ..... S: Very interesting. I'm inclined to think that the key is the understanding of dhammas rather than working on/trying to develop particular states. Isn't this conditioned by an attachment of how we'd like to be, rather than a detachment towards what is conditioned already? [You may also like to look at more under "Vipallasas" in "Useful Posts" in the files section of DSG.] >My views are my views, but still very tentative. They are derived mostly from experience, partly from reading, and then matching the two. I try to read from as many sources as time and funds allow. ... S: You're obviously considering very deeply, Robin. I'm very glad you're discussing your views with us. ... >> May I ask where you live? >I dwell on the back roads by the rivers of our memories. :) Rural Northeast Illinois, southeast of Chicago, near the Kankakee River. ... S: :) thx for sharing, a lyric I can't quite recall.... sounds like a nice retreat from the Hong Kong bustle.... All the dreams and memories in a citta, a momentary citta now.... Metta Sarah p.s Grateful if you'd add a name or salutation at the start of your messages to make it clear whom you're writing to. Thx in advance. ====== #106676 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 1:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anger. How to stop. sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, What you are pointing to is the strength of the anusayas, the latent defilements, such as patigha anussaya. We can see why they are referred to as microbes - just lying dormant and then suddenly conditions for the anger to arise, seemingly unexpectedly and unprovoked, just by conditions because of the anusaya not yet eradicated. So you're just pointing to the Buddha's wisdom, the uncontrollability of dhammas and the great attachment to sense objects and ideas about oneself. As Queen Mallika pointed out, wherever we look, no one is dearer than oneself. Help me write to some friends here about dhamma, Lukas. For example, perhaps you can help respond to Ken O's recent messages to me as he also wishes others to join in. If you discuss the Dhamma with him, you'll have not time at all to think about being miserable or angry, I assure you!! Just as you hit 'send', he'll reply and you'll be back at work again:-)). As you say, just like a monkey grabbing onto one useless object after another one... Never mind if you don't feel like reading or listening - join in with the threads here instead! Yes, I also hope others like Han and Phil will come out of the wood-work to add their advice too. As Ken O says, "the more the merrier". (Han, I haven't forgotten our thread and will be getting round to it soon....!! Perhaps Lukas will also join in with it too. On kamma, Lukas.) Don't take yourself too seriously, Lukas - only impermanent namas and rupas after all.... Metta Sarah --- On Fri, 9/4/10, Lukas wrote: Hi Sarah I am happy you answered that, I am also waiting for Nina and others answers. No I am not able to appreciate kusala. <...> #106677 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Ken H >---------- > >Don't worry about a quote, Ken, just tell me why you need a method. KO:?? I know conventional actions like read and listening are methods because they are repeated behaviour and we fixed our?attention to the object we are listening or reading and?we?are likely to?seat down?during such?times.? Sounds familiar ?:-). > >Have you ever understood the way things are - as described by the Buddha? If you had, you would know an ultimately real world in which there are only conditioned dhammas. That means no people, no computers and no methods. Just conditioned dhammas! > >Take my word for it, Ken, when you know the world as it really is you lose all interest in conventional ways of knowing it. You can see that there clearly could not possibly be any such ways. KO:??You should not do that because?we need conventional actions to learn dhamma.? And all objects be it conventional or not could condition learning of the dhamma.? Just like a lovely conceptual object could condition?wise?reflection on the object like?its impermanence and suffering or?the foul Does this understanding of paramatha dhamma prevent one from listening and reading that are conventional actions which are necessary conditions for development of dhamma.? Also we have to be mindful and not to digress into extreme view of paramatha dhamma and reject all concepts because?there is?father and?mother >------------ ------ > >Yes, of course it does. Every word of the Dhamma goes against belief in the efficacy of conventional methods. > >The Dhamma describes the presently arisen realities and tells us everything we need to know about them. I won't presume to interpret that particular sutta quote, but I suspect it is describing the conditioned dhamma, sati. One way of describing sati would be to refer to the way a jhana meditator holds on to his meditation object - and liken that to sati. > >------------ --------- - KO:? No, that is a wrong intepretation of the dhamma.??The commentary is very clear, it is all conventional actions, the only difference is clear comprehension.??? Isn't listening to dhamma a conventional action that is repeated or you like to tell me you could listen at paramatha level. Hmm I have yet heard you answer this question are you able to listen to words by just one moment. >------------ --------- -- > >How can you clearly comprehend an action? Do you mean cetana? > >There is cetana in every citta. There is cetana now. So how could you possibly think there needed to be some kind of deliberate (conventional) activity for the understanding of cetana? KO:??You mean cetana not an action, how do you will or do volition?? ?Clearly comprehen?can be comprehen on the?action or the?object that is present in the?citta at that moment.? Cetana can be an object of the mind :-). cheers Ken O #106678 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Scott >Scott: I understand gocara to refer to the range of consciousness in relation to its object - a precise and narrow meaning. You've offered a sort of conventional take on the term. I'm not sure that this generalization is warranted, or isn't simply a liberty being taken with the term which can't be supported. You are talking conventionally but I'm not convinced yet that, while the distinction between 'conventional' and 'ultimate' is valid, it is possible to convert everything that is true in the ultimate sense into a conventionally stated equivalent. That being said, there are three ways in which 'gocara' is delineated: 1) upanissaya gocara, 2) arakkha gocara, and 3) upanibandha gocara. You'd have to make it clear in what sense you were meaning to apply the term. > KO:??Yes there is a distinction between?paramatha?and conventional. I totally agree with it and strongly?believe in it.??I just felt I should?dispell the myth there is no conventional action :-).? >Scott: No, I still don't agree because here you might as well suggest that it is better to walk slowly and deliberately and mentally label all of one's movements and call this sati. KO:? I just want to show that in the commentary there is such action.? One can also?counter argue, isn't going to Bkk to discuss dhamma is a deliberate action :-).??? The difference is....... but it is not that simple see below.? Simply following blindly is very unwise. >Scott: You can't be suggesting that all there is to 'clear comprehension' is a simple intellectual understanding of something, can you? If so, it seems to me that there is nothing at all the Dhamma if this is all it amounts to. Anyone can think this way. KO:? Definitely it is not that simple, I just like to point out to separate actions from roots or there is no such thing as conventional actions.????For those?who develop this must first have high level of virtue, mindfulness and panna?as describe in Visud and the Suttas.? Cheers Cheers Ken O #106679 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 9, 2010 11:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/9/2010 8:52:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: H: > However, I would not say that I don't see how there can be any argument. I don't see myself as Johnny Carson's Karnac the Magnificent who knows all and sees all! So far, I distinguish between what I strongly believe and what I know. There is very little that I unquestionably know! -------------------------- Hmmm, do the initials SM mean anything to you? :-) ================================= Well, I've heard of S & M ! With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106680 From: si-la-nanda Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? silananda_t Hi Ken, You are absolutely right. Build up our sila, samadhi & panna. The practice is not linear nor non-linear, as written. *Saddha, Viriya, Sati, Samadhi, Panna ...* Only with practice will one be able to differentiate these factors within, founded on strong sila mahakaruna, silananda On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Ken O wrote: > > > Dear Silananda > > S: Saddha, Viriya, Sati, Samadhi, Panna ... > > I like to said that according to the suttas, there should be virture also. > So it is not that simple as just doing concentration (samadhi) for > jhanas. Also in the facuties, there are sense control (sati) and > panna should also be developed > > Visud chapter 1, pg 5 > <<"When a wise man, established well in virture, > Develops consciousness and understanding, > Then as a bikkhu ardent and sagacious > He succeeds in disentangling this tange" (S,i.13)>> <...> #106681 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:37 am Subject: Re: Anger. How to stop. gazita2002 hallo Lukas and others, anger is like a naughty child who, the more one tries to control it, the more it misbehaves. So, my advice is to let it happen! We know we cant stop it anyway,so get angry. Many of us are afraid of anger but its no better or worse than attachment as far as akusala/kusala is concerned. IMHO you will find it is short-lived, I think. Some sort of wisdom will stop you from yelling too many bad things - but then again, mayb not. Its all conditioned you know. Now some people will find this advice abominable, and its not the sort of advice I would give someone in an anger-management course :0 but for ones who have studied dhamma and know to some extent, that dhammas are anatta may very possibly see anger for just what it is; anatta, anicca and totally unsatisfactory. Noone likes anger because its accompanied by unpleasant feeling and may be a condition for headache and bellyache, both unpleasant bodily feeling. Anger is anger, thats how dosa manifests, see it for what it is, it arises and falls away but can arise and fall away frequently and we dont like that do we? Patience, courage and good cheer Lukas - and have a good yell! azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Hi Sarah I am happy you answered that, I am also waiting for Nina and others answers. > > No I am not able to appreciate kusala. But I understand that concepts on good behaviour and concepts on metta are prevailing conditions for kusala. I mean that hearing good Dhamma can be a condition for metta and kusala. That's why I also appreciate Han's and Phil's and others comments. > > But now this doesnt help me much, sorry I could do nothing with that. > I can just leave my mind open for listening to the Dhamma. But if I am not feeling well, with dosa, what can i do with that. I feel hopless. > > Metta for me is very natural and this rather supprise me sometimes but mostly there'are angers. > > Actually today I also reflected that people want to be happy as I want to be. But does that mean anything to the anger when it arises. > > Maybe if I would spent more time with reading Dhamma, but now I dont read and listen to the Acharn's discursess. I feel like a moon that is covered by cloudes more and more. I smiling sometimes of that. Wow Lukas look this is how the man's decadention is. This helps me also to have more metta to people addicted. When they take drugs or drink a lot. They can feel the same. > > For me reading Dhamma is good, cause this makes me very good and concentrated, so I can say I have my way. But I feel dosa for reading now. > > I had a lot of issues recently with stong anger and thinking involved. This mind is like a monkey that grabs one branch and takes another. This minds jumpes from one idea to another. This is useless , just thinking but i dont understand that. I think with anger and made opinions, ideas that I am very attached to. No wisdom, just stupid Lukas. > > I will appreciate all others advises, I feel bad. > > best wishes > Lukas #106682 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? / useful farrellkevin80 Hi Robin, You wrote: ________________________________ > Kevin: Maybe they have attained jhana, maybe not. I don't know. What three manuals do you speak of Rob? Rob: Visuddhimagga, Vimuttimagga, and Patisambhidamagga. KEvin: The Visuddhimagga is a great read. I would like to read the Patisambhidhamma. The Vimuttimagga, however, is not a Theravadin book. > Rob: The fact that the authors of these works describe the jhanas in some detail, and add concepts not found in the suttas, implies that the authors have attained them? That instructions are included implies it is possible for others to apply them? > > Kevin: Personally,. I wouldn't jump into thinking that these things imply that people have attained them or that others can. Rob: Someone else, KO?, if i recall correctly, suggested that Virtue is required for samatha. Kevin: I think panna is necessary for real samatha, the kind of panna that sees the drawbacks in unwholesomeness and causes one to refrain from unwholesome deeds, and engage in wholesome ones such as samatha. I think most people who think "I will practice virtue and then my mind will settle down and then I will practice samatha" have it wrong. They probably do not have panna on the level that sees the drawbacks well enough to practice sila and samatha in the most authentic and effective ways. There are different kinds of panna. And in this case, just as with vipassana, there must be panna that understands. I am no master of sila or samatha so I will not comment on your understanding of samatha and virtue that you gave. The best, Kevin #106683 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? farrellkevin80 Hi Rob... That is interesting. I have a neurological disorder that causes severe migraines, tinnitus, disequilibrium, and vertigo. I abandoned breath meditation immediately, years ago, as it triggered very bad attacks. By 2003, the condition was to the point I could not walk. I had spent a small fortune on medical diagnoses and treatments, but it only got worse. Since then, I have made gradual but considerable progress. I am getting the vibe that discussing the experience / the how, might be frowned upon here? If so, no problem. I am here to learn what I can about Buddhism. Kevin: I am sorry to hear that Rob. Robin: That is also interesting. I have taken no vows, not lay and certainly not monastic, that are binding in any way. I joined a Buddhist group years ago, and took their lay vows; but we long since cheerfully parted way. In that sense, I am not really a Buddhist; I do not belong to a formal Sangha. Is it considered offensive for lay followers and/or informal Dhamma seekers to discuss their practices and the results; benefits or difficulties? palms together robin Kevin: Rob, I think it is OK to discuss. With metta, Kevin #106684 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg gazita2002 hallo Scott and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Sarah: The rules were laid down, one by one as a need arose, for those who hadn't seen the light, as Sukin mentioned...I think that as soon as we introduce such *shoulds*, we're losing the plot..... Lobha, wishing for results again...." > ....snip.... > S: "You were having a discussion with Ken O about a Vism passage - a 'should' reciting passage. Instead of reading/translating it as 'should recite', it can be read as may be recited. Again, it's the understanding of conditioned dhammas that is important." > ..snip... > Scott: Yes, Ken O. has become rather adamant about this lately. And you and I have discussed the 'may be' aspect of things. How do you understand the Buddha's oft-stated 'thus you should train yourselves (sikkhitabba.m)?' > > S: "...The dhamma is about understanding conditioned realities as anatta after all, not about attempting to make them behave in any way whatsoever..." > > Scott: Anatta makes sense to me. In this case you are referring to satipa.t.thaana. What about other apparently mundane, conventional things the Buddha refers to when he says, 'thus, monks, should ye train yourselves?' azita: I'm gonna do a KenH here - luvyaKH - what else would the Buddha be talking about but anatta. There is no training in Paramattha sense, there are no monks etc there are just dhammas here fleetingly and gone. There is wisdom, there is hiri and ottapa, there is energy for kusala but it does not belong to anyone, but you know this anyway Scott I think. patience, courage and good cheer azita #106685 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Applying mind to seeing and hearing farrellkevin80 Hi Lukas, you wrote: ________________________________ Dear friends, Please tell me how to apply the mind to seeing and hearing now. Best wishes Lukas Kevin: Lukas, seeing and hearing happen so fast. They just happen. We cannot "catch up" to them to be aware as they happen. Seeing falls away and then the mind takes what has been seen and forms a concept. All we need to apply our mind to, is to understanding about seeing, and hearing now, and how they work, not trying to actually see them. I hope this helps, Kevin #106686 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:37 am Subject: Re: Anger. How to stop / with .Metta-Karuna / szmicio Dear Rob, > Are you working on cultivating all 4 Brahma-vihara? I am sure this has been discussed here. L: I dont cultivate 4 brahmaviharas. > My understanding: > > Metta: Loving Kindness, basic good will. The far opposites of this would enmity {vyapada}, dosa {hatred}, patigha {anger}, kupito {hesitance, revolt}, and so on. Kama {lust} would be a near opposite. L: Yes but what is metta? this is adosa, non-hatred or metta is loving-kindness? How many aspects metta has? Just adosa is always metta? > Karuna: Compassion. To view the pain, suffering, stress, and so on of others as our own. The far opposites would be schadenfreude, cruelty, or sadism. Near opposites would be contemptuous, patronizing or condescending pity. L: I think karuna can be also compassion for not understanding of 4NT. But nowehere i can find such explanation. > Muditta: There is no English word for this. I take it to mean seeing the joy, bliss, and victories as our own. Being proud of others and gratitude or appreciation for others is close, I think. A far opposite would be envy {issa}. Near opposites might be infatuation, vicarious hero veneration, or doting on someone. L: Happieness? Or joy cause all people are happy? Best wishes Lukas #106687 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:42 am Subject: Re: Applying mind to seeing and hearing szmicio Dear Nina, You reminded me of what is important, thanks. Can you explain more on seeing. How to apply to seeing? How to be present in life? Best wishes Lukas P.s Sarah pls give your advise also. How to apply to seeing and hearing? Because if we dont, there is only madness of thinking again and again. > > Please tell me how to apply the mind to seeing and hearing now. > -------- > N: Your question is good and I tell you why. Whenever we ask Kh Sujin > about problems we have, be it worry about the future, preparation for > the death of one's partner or our own death, or anger we had, she > will suggest to attend to the present moment, like seeing. That is > always her answer. We tend to think of stories, even when asking > about anger we do not like to have. We are mostly in the world of > conventional truth. She likes to help us to attend to the ultimate > truth, realities appearing now that have characteristics. Then we can > see the difference between thinking of stories, and learning about > realities. > It may seem strange at first, we wonder about her answer, but it works. > No person can apply the mind to seeing, no person can try to have > less anger. But there can be more understanding of what seeing is, > since it arises now. It is different from thinking of persons and > things. It experiences only what is visible, nothing else. At least > we can consider this more, and at the same time there should be no > wish for direct awareness. Not wishing for anything at all, such as > having less anger. What comes, has to come because of conditions, but > there can be more understanding. If you try to have less anger there > may be an idea of self, and instead there may be more aversion when > you have no success. > As to lack of interest in the Dhamma, also that is conditioned. But > you have dsg and you write, so that shows your interest. Take courage, > Nina. > > #106688 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anger. How to stop. ashkenn2k Dear Lukas I did not know Lukas can be angry, I thought only dosa can be angry.? cheers :-) Ken O #106689 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg ashkenn2k Dear Azita ? >azita: I'm gonna do a KenH here - luvyaKH - what else would the Buddha be talking about but anatta. There is no training in Paramattha sense, there are no monks etc there are just dhammas here fleetingly and gone. There is wisdom, there is hiri and ottapa, there is energy for kusala but it does not belong to anyone, but you know this anyway Scott I think. KO:???Understanding paramatha dhamma does?not mean?rejecting of concepts or eliminating concepts from the development of understanding.? Understanding paramatha dhamma is to understand the citta or cetasikas that arise with an object, and the object can be concepts or dhamma.? Understanding paramatha is to understand craving that arise with a lovely being and not the lovely being which is a object of citta.? It is impossible to eliminate concepts because they are not real, but it is possible to eradicate wrong view and craving because?they?are?real.? The development of satipatthana is the?elimination of akusala?paramatha dhammas?and not the eliminating of concepts.? Also there is no training in paramatha sense, then why do you listen and read dhamma, you should?not?that because it is not paramatha?:-). Wisdom dont interest, dont will, it is just understanding of the characteristics.? If it is not cetana, how do you listen?? If it is not chanda, how you have interest and perference in learning?dhamma.? No one interest, it is chanda that interest, no one act, it is cetana that acts :-).? But to say no act and no interest or perference, that is not the correct?understanding of paramatha dhammas. cheers Ken O #106690 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? ashkenn2k Dear Silananda The practise for taking up a samatha object is after one has accomplished virtue and mindfullness and clear comphrension.? The sutta and Visud, is clear on this aspect.? Also there is another aspect which is?seclusion, that is the environment is free from noise and people and not just selcusion in the sense of seating in one corner of a room.? It is not linear only when you have the pre-requsite as stated in Visud and not before having the pre-requsite because?without the mastery over virtue, strong mindfulness and develop?panna, the faculty would not be strong, one will not be able to concentrate on an object.?? When you said strong sila, sila is not just sila of volitions, it has other aspects like restraint in mindffulness and restraint by panna, restraint by energy and restraint by patience.? Sila itself includes the other aspect of development and not just sila as volition.? Kind regards Ken O #106691 From: "Rob" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:03 am Subject: Re: Anger. How to stop / with .Metta-Karuna / rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > robin: > > My understanding: > > Metta: Loving Kindness, basic good will. The far opposites of this would enmity {vyapada}, dosa {hatred}, patigha {anger}, kupito {hesitance, revolt}, and so on. Kama {lust} would be a near opposite. > > L: Yes but what is metta? this is adosa, non-hatred or metta is loving-kindness? How many aspects metta has? > Just adosa is always metta? robin writes: Not really, I do not think so. Adosa could also be apathy; neither metta {empathy} nor dosa {antipathy}. I understand that Metta comes from the same root as mitta, meaning friendship. It means to care about another as much as a healthy person cares about their self. Like a normal mother loves her child. Modern science has studied the affect of metta bhavana. It increases mental activity associated with empathy. > robin: > > Karuna: Compassion. To view the pain, suffering, stress, and so on of others as our own. The far opposites would be schadenfreude, cruelty, or sadism. Near opposites would be contemptuous, patronizing or condescending pity. > L: I think karuna can be also compassion for not understanding of 4NT. But nowhere i can find such explanation. robin writes: If we understand that such ignorance causes others to be bound, and therefore they must experience dukkha, and we feel empathy with that, as if their dukkha is also our dukkha, then I think we have experienced karuna. We feel their pain, we shed real tears for them. Maybe like a parent feels for a lost child. One thing, I have been told that cultivating karuna might arouse very intense emotions of sorrow. It may even arouse the desire for revenge. Therefore, it is said that such cultivation ought to be balanced by developing non-attachment or cool objectivity. Also, when harm is done, we should develop compassion for both the perpetrator and victim. We should want people who harms others to become mentally healthy. I think Karuna is bittersweet sorrow; not bitter. That is my understanding, fwiw. " ... karuna is actually our ability to relate to another in so intense a measure that the plight of the other affects us as much as if it had been our own. ... The root meaning of karuna is said to be the anguished cry of deep sorrow and understanding that can only come from an unblemished sense of oneness with others." -- Nitin Kumar robin: > > Muditta: There is no English word for this. I take it to mean seeing the joy, bliss, and victories [of others] as our own. Being proud of others and gratitude or appreciation for others is close, I think. A far opposite would be envy {issa}. Near opposites might be infatuation, vicarious hero veneration, or doting on someone. > > L: Happiness? Or joy cause all people are happy? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ robin writes: I omitted 'of others.' If we have empathy for [with?] someone; then when they feel joy; we also feel joy. That is muditta; being proud for others. This happiness probably could be piti or sukha or both. I think piti is a cetasika; while sukha is a vedana? When someone else enjoys victory, it might be natural to feel envy or jealousy. I think we should not give in to this, we should make an effort to develop mudita. Congratulatory joy might be a good English translation of mudita. Pema Chodron translates it as appreciative joy. Others use sympathetic joy. > Best wishes > Lukas > palms together robin #106692 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:25 am Subject: President of Poland is dead szmicio I am sad. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1161985.html Metta to all living beings Lukas #106693 From: "Rob" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Yes, you're right to refer to khanika, upacara and appana samadhi. Sarah, I might have a little different take on these right now. Parikamma samadhi: Preliminary Concentration. Upachara Samadhi: Neighborhood / Access Concentration. Appana Samadhi: Fixed concentration, sustained on one object to the exclusion of others, with no sensory contact. Khanika Samadhi: Equal in depth to Appana; but flowing from object to object, without fixing on any one; with contact but without attachment. A fluid, supple concentration. I have seen Khanika Samadhi conflated with Parikamma samadhi. However, Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: "The kinds of concentration discussed so far arise by fixing the mind upon a single object to the exclusion of other objects. But apart from these there is another kind of concentration which does not depend upon restricting the range of awareness. This is called "momentary concentration" (khanika-samadhi). To develop momentary concentration the meditator does not deliberately attempt to exclude the multiplicity of phenomena from his field of attention. Instead, he simply directs mindfulness to the changing states of mind and body, noting any phenomenon that presents itself; the task is to maintain a continuous awareness of whatever enters the range of perception, clinging to nothing. As he goes on with his noting, concentration becomes stronger moment after moment until it becomes established one-pointedly ... This fluid, mobile concentration is developed by the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness, taken up along the path of insight; when sufficiently strong it issues in the breakthrough to the last stage of the path, the arising of wisdom." more: "The Noble Eightfold Path: The Way to the End of Suffering", by Bhikkhu Bodhi. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html#ch7 #106694 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Ken O. -------------------- <. . .> KO:?> I know conventional actions like read and listening are methods because they are repeated behaviour and we fixed our?attention to the object we are listening or reading and?we?are likely to?seat down?during such?times.? Sounds familiar ?:-). --------------------- All too familiar! It is religious mumbo-jumbo. :-) -------------------------- KH: > > . . when you know the world as it really is you lose all interest in conventional ways of knowing it. You can see that there clearly could not possibly be any such ways. KO:??> You should not do that because?we need conventional actions to learn dhamma.? --------------------------- The time for understanding Dhamma is now. There is no time to wait until we have read and listened a little more. Whenever you think, "I will develop satipatthana later," you are deeply immersed in self-view. ------------------------------------ KO: > And all objects be it conventional or not could condition learning of the dhamma.? Just like a lovely conceptual object could condition?wise?reflection on the object like?its impermanence and suffering or?the foul ------------------------------------ Good, so why do you need a method? ----------------------- KO: > Does this understanding of paramatha dhamma prevent one from listening and reading that are conventional actions which are necessary conditions for development of dhamma.? ------------------------ No, it doesn't prevent that, but it does prevent us from thinking of it as a method. Methods are for permanent selves only. The five khandhas last a trillionth of a second; they can't benefit from a method. ----------------------------- KO: > Also we have to be mindful and not to digress into extreme view of paramatha dhamma and reject all concepts because?there is?father and?mother ----------------------------- There is no need to reject anything. A monk knows there is father and mother, but he knows it in the "particular" way taught by the Buddha, not in the "general" way known by ordinary people (and by dogs and jackals). ---------------------- <. . .> KH: > > One way of describing sati would be to refer to the way a jhana meditator holds on to his meditation object - and liken that to sati. KO:? > No, that is a wrong intepretation of the dhamma.??The commentary is very clear, it is all conventional actions, the only difference is clear comprehension.??? ----------------------- I'll admit I haven't studied those texts, but I'd be very surprised if they were telling anyone to bend and straighten their arms. ---------------------------- KO: > Isn't listening to dhamma a conventional action that is repeated or you like to tell me you could listen at paramatha level. Hmm I have yet heard you answer this question are you able to listen to words by just one moment. ----------------------------- That's never been a point of contention. We concern ourselves with conventional activities all day every day. That includes studying Dhamma, which we do because it is our main interest in life - not because we see it as a method. Ken H #106695 From: "Rob" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: KH > >Take my word for it, Ken, when you know the world as it really is you lose all interest in conventional ways of knowing it. You can see that there clearly could not possibly be any such ways. > > KO:??You should not do that because?we need conventional actions to learn dhamma.? And all objects be it conventional or not could condition learning of the dhamma.? Just like a lovely conceptual object could condition?wise?reflection on the object like?its impermanence and suffering or?the foul > > Does this understanding of paramatha dhamma prevent one from listening and reading that are conventional actions which are necessary conditions for development of dhamma.? I have been trying to follow this thread. I think I agree more with you on this Ken O. I am little more extreme, almost a perpetualist. :) Objects may be temporary; but are still real. I do not think of objects as merely temporary, and therefore, of no importance. The idea of stopping on a red light and going on green is only a conventional way of doing things, a method. However, if I lose interest in this convention, I would cause harm. I could stop driving an automobile; but then I must burden some one else, or pay someone, to get me from place to place. When I say I or me, I do not mean to imply that I have some permanent soul. However, this me is real enough for right now. When I go home at night, I go to my house. If I enter my neighbor's house and try to sleep in his bed, I will likely wind up sleeping at the county jail. palms together, robin #106696 From: "Rob" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello rrobinrb2000 Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: S> >> May I ask where you live? > robin: > >I dwell on the back roads by the rivers of our memories. :) Rural Northeast Illinois, southeast of Chicago, near the Kankakee River. > ... > S: :) thx for sharing, a lyric I can't quite recall.... sounds like a nice retreat from the Hong Kong bustle.... > > All the dreams and memories in a citta, a momentary citta now.... > > Metta > > Sarah The lyrics are from "Gentle on My Mind" an oft covered song composed by the late John Hartford about 43 years ago. It gets very still here. Sort of. When my daughter visited from Atlanta, the songbirds woke her up at dawn. The morning is like a symphony; with the woodpecker playing percussion. Every now and then, an owl will chime in. Sometimes a big bad crow shows up, and all the other birds hide in the tress and get quiet. At night, the crickets and frogs can get very loud. robin #106697 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg scottduncan2 Dear Azita, Regarding: azita: "I'm gonna do a KenH here - luvyaKH - what else would the Buddha be talking about but anatta. There is no training in Paramattha sense, there are no monks etc there are just dhammas here fleetingly and gone. There is wisdom, there is hiri and ottapa, there is energy for kusala but it does not belong to anyone, but you know this anyway Scott I think." Scott: I do know this, of course. I think, however, that Ken O. is reacting to this sort of rote assertionism, I'm afraid. I can't quite see where he's going with his own assertions (which are beginning to sound a bit rote and repetitive as well. I'd thought of him as one of the 'dinosaurs' until his recent series of posts which seem to be attempting to 'explore' the whole 'method' thing. I'm just not sure it does to simply repeat party-line mantras in response to him. I don't know what Ken O's on to yet but what if he is on to something? What if he isn't just doing an about face and caving to some sort of pervasive doctrinal pressure? Is this a fold to which errant sheep have to be returned when we discuss 'amongst ourselves?' I think we've been taking stands against meditators for too long. How can we discuss with 'one of our own?' Anatta is one thing. Conventional versus absolute level of discourse is another. With the above you haven't really addressed the heart of the matter: How, in the light of anatta, is one to understand the conventionally worded exhortations of the Buddha to train one's self thusly? Yes, anything we imagine we are doing is simply a series of things doing themselves, as it were, and trailing reams and clouds of thinking miasma about it. What does it mean for the Buddha to suggest that we think a certain way about something (which he does)? How would thinking this way be condition for kusala? Sincerely, Scott. #106698 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Ken H > >The time for understanding Dhamma is now. There is no time to wait until we have read and listened a little more. Whenever you think, "I will develop satipatthana later," you are deeply immersed in self-view. > >------------ --------- --------- ------ KO:? Hmm an overuse statement on understanding dhamma now.? You mean those disciples under the trees during the Buddha time?are not doing dhamma now at that time :-). If it is not dhamma now,?I was thinking there must be something wrong with all these reciting, 32 parts, they should not write them and confuse people.? Hmm Buddha should not have taught?breathing samatha then also.?It is breathing as an object?and not nama and rupa.? Those who think that it is?nama and rupa?could always welcome to join in this discussion :-).?? >Good, so why do you need a method? > >------------ --------- --------- ------ KO: Because I still require to listen and read dhamma regularly and having my favourite reading and listening posture :-). >------------ --------- --- >No, it doesn't prevent that, but it does prevent us from thinking of it as a method. Methods are for permanent selves only. The five khandhas last a trillionth of a second; they can't benefit from a method. > >------------ --------- -------- KO:? Hmm?method means a permanent self that?is based on one's assumption.?? Visud are full of methods.? >------------ --------- -------- > >There is no need to reject anything. A monk knows there is father and mother, but he knows it in the "particular" way taught by the Buddha, not in the "general" way known by ordinary people (and by dogs and jackals). > >------------ --------- - KO:? you are contradictory, first you said all is paramatha, then you said there is father and mother.? Wow now we have?a particular way, are you trying to wriggle a way out :-). >------------ --------- -- > >I'll admit I haven't studied those texts, but I'd be very surprised if they were telling anyone to bend and straighten their arms. > >------------ --------- ------- KO:? It is online, pse read it, I have given you the link on the earlier email.? >------------ --------- -------- > >That's never been a point of contention. We concern ourselves with conventional activities all day every day. That includes studying Dhamma, which we do because it is our main interest in life - not because we see it as a method. > KO:? so who is calling the kettle black :-).? Because studying dhamma is conventional action but you said that all is paramatha dhamma then why do conventional actions and doing conventional development of understanding.? Isnt reading a method of leaning the dhamma.? ? Also you said it is satipathana now, why are you reading the dhamma text :-)? Oh I forget, you have yet told me is there conventional action? Cheers Ken #106699 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? farrellkevin80 I sent this thread yesterday, but it never went through: Hi Nina, Apologies for taking so long to reply. I had a wonderful day today. There are some places nearby, by the Hudson River, where I like to go and and contemplate Dhamma sometimes. There is a beautiful State Park there, and there is a New York State Historric Site on the grounds of the Vanderbilt Mansion there in Hyde Park, New York. The Vanderbilts were a famous Dutch family that settled in New York and have much to do with this states history. They donated the mansion and waterfront property to the State, who turned it over to the Fed, and now it is a National Park, which borders a State Park. They both run along the water. It is such a beautiful place. At times I go there to think, and to contemplate Dhamma, or to just relax. There is another State Park nearby that I had never gone to before. This one houses the Mills Mansion. The property there was also donated and is now State property. I drove down there today and parked my car. I then explored. One can walk right down to the water on the beautiful Hudson River and sit there or walk along it. There is a nice place there for me to read my Dhamma books in front of a Cherry Blossom tree that looks out to the water and a lighthouse. There are wonderful trails behind it also, where one can walk in the woods. I sat by the water and then walked on the trails today. It looks like a nice place to go and read, and then one can walk the trails and contemplate the Dhamma one has read. Right now I am reading your book Nina, The Buddhist Teaching on Ultimate Reality, which you were very kind to send me when I left Thailand. I had read some of it at that time, but unfortunately I have not had the chance to read it in full, from front to back yet. Now I am reading the whole book front to back. This book brings me great joy, Nina. Tomorrow I have off again and I will go down to the water there and read the Dhamma and then walk the trails and contemplate it. I enjoy very much contemplating Dhamma, Nina, especially conditions. I hope you are well. Anyway, you wrote: > Kevin: If a monk knowingly lies about attainment to anyone he > commits an unrepairable offense. The only action he can take is > disrobe, and he must. If he tells other bhikkhus and it is true, > then it is OK. If he tells laypeople and it is true, it is also an > offense, but not of the same class; it can be repaired ------ N: I just heard on a recording that Kh. Sujin said that if a monk speaks about his attainment of jhaana or magga (lokuttara), he has an offense of apatti paraajika. K: If a monk knowingly lies about his attainments of jhana or one of the stages of enlightenment, to anyone wether they be bhikkhu or layperson, it is paraajika. If, however, a bhikkhu truthfully tells any of those attainments to another bhikkhu then there is no offense (if it is false but the bhikkhu who is relaying his experience believes it to be true attainment himself then there is no offense as well, as far as I know). If a bhikkhu tells a layperson truthfully (or the bhikkhu believes it is true himself and tells the layperson) then there is an offense that I believe only entails confession (not sure of the actual class, though I am sure that it is not a paraajika though. I believe Alex already explained this and it appears he provided links to an online document with the rules (thank you Alex). This way bhikkhus can tell their lay supporers about it if they feel it would be good. Nina: Robin asked about the benefit of jhaana and I should mention the following. A person who has not developed jhaana and attains enlightenment has lokuttara magga-citta and then two phalacittas which experience nibbaana. Then these cittas fall away. He will not experience nibbaana again, unless it is time for reaching a further stage of enlightenment. Someone who has developed jhaana and attains enlightenment has conditions for the arising again of phalacitta, many times in life. He can experience nibbaana again and again. This is called phala-samaapatti. Kevin: Another reason that the Arahant who practices samatha is the highest kind of Arahant. But anyhow, release is release, right? It is not as kusala if one cannot have additional phala cittas, but the fetters are still removed, and nibbana is still peace. Nina: Robin is interested in chanting, and I want to ask Kevin: is there any monastery where Abhidhamma is chanted? Kh Sujin mentioned once that at a cremation Abhidhamma texts are chanted, and I want to know which ones. Is it about aniccaa? Kevin: Nina, absolutely. The monks do chant from the Abhidamma at funerals. Robert once told me what verse it was but unfortunately I cannot recall (bad memory). I don't know of any monasteries where Abhidhamma is chanted. I know there are some monasteries where Abhidhamma is taught in Bangkok, but I would recommend simply asking questions about Abhidhamma at the Foundation in Bangkok, if one has tbe chance to visit. Kevin #106700 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? farrellkevin80 This one too: Nina, you wrote: K:> Unfortunately, he suffers from a condition where he gets very bad > migrane headaches, and I don't think he meditates because of that. > I know he gets treatment for the headaches and I remember reading > somewhere (sorry I can't recall off-hand where) that he doesn't > meditate because of them. ------- Nina: Because of his sinus condition he is unable to have as subject mindfulness of breathing. Nina. K: Thank you, Nina. Kevin #106701 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] President of Poland is dead upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - Yes, he died, his wife, and several dignitaries. Really tragic. I presume you are Polish, Lukas. That makes the loss personal for you. I am sorry about this, Lukas. With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/10/2010 5:30:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: I am sad. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1161985.html Metta to all living beings Lukas #106702 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:18 pm Subject: Re: President of Poland is dead szmicio Dear Howard, thank you for your kind words. I am shocked by his dead. Like someone from my family died. I promised myself: Today I will observe all mind and matter in my life. But this is hard. Best wishes Lukas > Yes, he died, his wife, and several dignitaries. > > Really tragic. I > presume you are Polish, Lukas. > That makes the loss personal for you. I am sorry > about this, Lukas. #106703 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt scottduncan2 Dear Ken O., Regarding: KO: "Yes there is a distinction between paramatha and conventional. I totally agree with it and strongly believe in it. I just felt I should dispell the myth there is no conventional action :-). Scott: Well, if I might suggest, I've not heard anyone saying there is no 'conventional action' per se but the party line seems to be that there is no need to imagine that 'conventional action' initiated with thoughts of a 'conventional actor' could exist somehow outside of the natural limits imposed by anatta, the characteristic of which is the uncontrollability of dhammas. I've not understood this to mean that there is 'no conventional action.' Can anyone deny that there always seems to be someone doing something, understanding something, responding to something, thinking about something? KO: "I just want to show that in the commentary there is such action. One can also counter argue, isn't going to Bkk to discuss dhamma is a deliberate action :-). The difference is....... but it is not that simple see below. Simply following blindly is very unwise." Scott: I think you are unwise in adopting this simplistic and clearly concrete misunderstanding of what I imagine the so-called dsg message to be. If it is said by the Buddha that a condition for pa~n~naa is discussing Dhamma, then, wouldn't one to whom such an exhortation makes sense (i.e. wouldn't pa~n~naa of some level) lead one to feel like discussing Dhamma? Do you go to Bangkok to discuss Dhamma in order to make more pa~n~naa arise? Or do you go because it seems to interest you and focus your many faculties such that you end up there? KO: "Definitely it is not that simple, I just like to point out to separate actions from roots or there is no such thing as conventional actions. For those who develop this must first have high level of virtue, mindfulness and panna as describe in Visud and the Suttas. Scott: The above isn't worded all that clearly, Ken. Can you rephrase it? In this last point I fail to see how you differentiate yourself from the Meditators who have said the same thing ad nauseum in favour of their misguided aims. How do you imagine that virtue, mindfulness and pa~n~naa go from low levels of development to higher levels of development? Sincerely, Scott #106704 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:24 pm Subject: Study on the development of Jhanas - Clear Comprehension ashkenn2k Dear Alex and Silananda (if you wish to join in) KO:? In most suttas, Clear Comprehension is usually before one enters jhana, wheras in anapasati, satipathana, it is after one attain jhanas.? Whether it is before or after, clear comprehension is about panna. The Sammannaphala Sutta and it?commentaries?- DN 2, translated by B Bodhi <> As in the Commentary to Satipatthana translated by Soma Thera <> In The Book of Analysis - Analysis of Jhanas pg 326 para 525 <<525 "Aware" means:? Therein what is awareness? That which is wisdom, understanding, investigation, research, truth investigation, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, analysis, consideration, breadth, sagacity, guidance, insight, awareness, goad, wisdom, controlling faculty of wisdom, power of wisdom, sword of wisdom, tower of wisdom, light of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, splendour of wisdom, jewel of wisdom, absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view.? This is called awareness.? Thus of this mindfulness and this awareness he approaches, :P: furnished...>> P = paragraph 357 <<357. 'Contemplating' means:? Therein what is contemplation? That which is wisdom, understanding, :P: absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view.? This is called contemplation.? Of this contemplation he is possessed, well possessed, attained, well attained, endowed, well endowed, furnished.? Therefore this is called 'contemplating'. P: 525>> Kind regards Ken O #106705 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Scott >Scott: Well, if I might suggest, I've not heard anyone saying there is no 'conventional action' per se but the party line seems to be that there is no need to imagine that 'conventional action' initiated with thoughts of a 'conventional actor' could exist somehow outside of the natural limits imposed by anatta, the characteristic of which is the uncontrollability of dhammas. I've not understood this to mean that there is 'no conventional action.' Can anyone deny that there always seems to be someone doing something, understanding something, responding to something, thinking about something? KO:? No, I see it quite often that?email saying no action, no doing.? You should look at the old posts.? That is wrong.?? Anatta is just not self, is not about cetana or citta, it is the characteristic of them but it dont perform their function so the limit of anatta is wrongly apply. ?The?correct view should be there is no actor but there is an acting.? Conventional action does not go against the principle of anatta, if not, no one can learn dhamma from Buddha because listening is a conventional action.? >Scott: I think you are unwise in adopting this simplistic and clearly?concrete misunderstanding of what I imagine the so-called dsg message to be. >If it is said by the Buddha that a condition for pa~n~naa is discussing Dhamma, then, wouldn't one to whom such an exhortation makes sense (i.e. wouldn't pa~n~naa of some level) lead one to feel like discussing Dhamma? Do you go to Bangkok to discuss Dhamma in order to make more pa~n~naa arise? Or do you go because it seems to interest you and focus your many faculties such that you end up there? KO?:? This could also be the same?to people who go for retreat meditation, their motivation is also to learn dhamma.??They?may not be of right view but some of them their motivation?could be?faith and a believe that this help in developing panna.? ?So theirs which I usually heard?is called deliberate while go to Bangkok is not.? What is the difference then, isnt all doing with a motivation??? Could?one claim?going to Bkk is not deliberated, why cant they just do dhamma now since they always said that, so why a need to go another place,?isnt that ?contradictary to?the principle of understanding?dhamma now.?? So when others do something else, they question with dhammas now, but their own actions is already contradictory to the principle of dhamma right now.?? >Scott: The above isn't worded all that clearly, Ken. Can you rephrase it? In this last point I fail to see how you differentiate yourself from the Meditators who have said the same thing ad nauseum in favour of their misguided aims. How do you imagine that virtue, mindfulness and pa~n~naa go from low levels of development to higher levels of development? KO:? I am not in any meditator or vipassana camp, I find both ways acceptable but I find both camps have very wrong views of each other practises and their own practise.??The meditator camp who think it is?just doing meditation?and that is called developing samantha bhavana?and we have vipassana camp who screech at all conventional actions and concepts and who dont understand that it is the paramatha dhamma that arise with action and concepts that make it wrong.?? The level of virtue,?mindfulness and panna,?I describe is the person which is the?one written by Visud.??Also, a lot of the meditators think that virture is just the ten precepts, it is more than that, it includes, mindfulness and panna.? And having mindfulness and panna, it just the start and not even the taking up the meditation subject yet, there must be seclusion and this is already difficult to find in modern days.?? Selusion is not doing meditaton retreat because seclusion is away from people and sounds. So much misunderstanding in samatha bhavana. ?We should hold true to the text and? its meaning.?It is not to ones interpretation or understanding, if one interpretation differs, we should check whether it is in accordance with the different texts and its meanings.? Kind regards Ken O #106706 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:50 pm Subject: Re: Study on the development of Jhanas - Clear Comprehension truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Dear Alex and Silananda (if you wish to join in) > > > KO:? In most suttas, Clear Comprehension is usually before one enters jhana, wheras in anapasati, satipathana, it is after one attain jhanas.? Whether it is before or after, clear comprehension is about panna. > > The Sammannaphala Sutta and it?commentaries?- DN 2, translated by B Bodhi > > < "And?how, great king, ?is a bikkhu endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension?? Herein, great king in going forward and returning,?the Bhikkhu?acts with clear comprehension.??In looking toward and looking?aside he acts with clear comprehension.? In?bending and extending his limbs, he acts with clear comprehension?In wearing his robes and cloak and using his almsbowl, he acts with clear comprehension.? In acting, drinking, chewing, and tasting, he acts with clear comprehension.? In defacating and urinating, he acts with clear comprehension.? In going, standing, sitting, lying down, waking up, speaking, and remaining silent, he acts with clear comprehension. In this way, great king, the bhikkhu is endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension.>> > > As in the Commentary to Satipatthana translated by Soma Thera > > < > Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampaja??a]. > Clearly comprehending = Discerning rightly, entirely and equally [samma samantato sama?ca pajananto].>> > > In The Book of Analysis - Analysis of Jhanas pg 326 para 525 > > <<525 "Aware" means:? Therein what is awareness? That which is wisdom, understanding, investigation, research, truth investigation, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, analysis, consideration, breadth, sagacity, guidance, insight, awareness, goad, wisdom, controlling faculty of wisdom, power of wisdom, sword of wisdom, tower of wisdom, light of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, splendour of wisdom, jewel of wisdom, absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view.? This is called awareness.? Thus of this mindfulness and this awareness he approaches, :P: furnished...>> > P = paragraph 357 > > <<357. 'Contemplating' means:? Therein what is contemplation? That which is wisdom, understanding, :P: absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view.? This is called contemplation.? Of this contemplation he is possessed, well possessed, attained, well attained, endowed, well endowed, furnished.? Therefore this is called 'contemplating'. > P: 525>> Of course Jhana requires wisdom, mindfulness, ethics and so on. With metta, Alex #106707 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] President of Poland is dead nilovg Dear Lukas, Our heartfelt sympathy. We followed it on T.V. and understand your feelings. Our queen sent a telegram, there are condoleance registers here and a commemoration service in Amsterdam. Nina. Op 10-apr-2010, om 11:25 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > I am sad. #106708 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? / useful farrellkevin80 Hi Nina, Apologies for taking so long to reply. I had a wonderful day today. There are some places nearby, by the Hudson River, where I like to go and and contemplate Dhamma sometimes. There is a beautiful State Park there, and there is a New York State Historric Site on the grounds of the Vanderbilt Mansion there in Hyde Park, New York. The Vanderbilts were a famous Dutch family that settled in New York and have much to do with this states history. They donated the mansion and waterfront property to the State, who turned it over to the Fed, and now it is a National Park, which borders a State Park. They both run along the water. It is such a beautiful place. At times I go there to think, and to contemplate Dhamma, or to just relax. There is another State Park nearby that I had never gone to before. This one houses the Mills Mansion. The property there was also donated and is now State property. I drove down there today and parked my car. I then explored. One can walk right down to the water on the beautiful Hudson River and sit there or walk along it. There is a nice place there for me to read my Dhamma books in front of a Cherry Blossom tree that looks out to the water and a lighthouse. There are wonderful trails behind it also, where one can walk in the woods. I sat by the water and then walked on the trails today. It looks like a nice place to go and read, and then one can walk the trails and contemplate the Dhamma one has read. Right now I am reading your book Nina, The Buddhist Teaching on Ultimate Reality, which you were very kind to send me when I left Thailand. I had read some of it at that time, but unfortunately I have not had the chance to read it in full, from front to back yet. Now I am reading the whole book front to back. This book brings me great joy, Nina. Tomorrow I have off again and I will go down to the water there and read the Dhamma and then walk the trails and contemplate it. I enjoy very much contemplating Dhamma, Nina, especially conditions. I hope you are well. Anyway, you wrote: > Kevin: If a monk knowingly lies about attainment to anyone he > commits an unrepairable offense. The only action he can take is > disrobe, and he must. If he tells other bhikkhus and it is true, > then it is OK. If he tells laypeople and it is true, it is also an > offense, but not of the same class; it can be repaired ------ N: I just heard on a recording that Kh. Sujin said that if a monk speaks about his attainment of jhaana or magga (lokuttara), he has an offense of apatti paraajika. K: If a monk knowingly lies about his attainments of jhana or one of the stages of enlightenment, to anyone wether they be bhikkhu or layperson, it is paraajika. If, however, a bhikkhu truthfully tells any of those attainments to another bhikkhu then there is no offense (if it is false but the bhikkhu who is relaying his experience believes it to be true attainment himself then there is no offense as well, as far as I know). If a bhikkhu tells a layperson truthfully (or the bhikkhu believes it is true himself and tells the layperson) then there is an offense that I believe only entails confession (not sure of the actual class, though I am sure that it is not a paraajika though. I believe Alex already explained this and it appears he provided links to an online document with the rules (thank you Alex). This way bhikkhus can tell their lay supporers about it if they feel it would be good. Nina: Robin asked about the benefit of jhaana and I should mention the following. A person who has not developed jhaana and attains enlightenment has lokuttara magga-citta and then two phalacittas which experience nibbaana. Then these cittas fall away. He will not experience nibbaana again, unless it is time for reaching a further stage of enlightenment. Someone who has developed jhaana and attains enlightenment has conditions for the arising again of phalacitta, many times in life. He can experience nibbaana again and again. This is called phala-samaapatti. Kevin: Another reason that the Arahant who practices samatha is the highest kind of Arahant. But anyhow, release is release, right? It is not as kusala if one cannot have additional phala cittas, but the fetters are still removed, and nibbana is still peace. Nina: Robin is interested in chanting, and I want to ask Kevin: is there any monastery where Abhidhamma is chanted? Kh Sujin mentioned once that at a cremation Abhidhamma texts are chanted, and I want to know which ones. Is it about aniccaa? Kevin: Nina, absolutely. The monks do chant from the Abhidamma at funerals. Robert once told me what verse it was but unfortunately I cannot recall (bad memory). I don't know of any monasteries where Abhidhamma is chanted. I know there are some monasteries where Abhidhamma is taught in Bangkok, but I would recommend simply asking questions about Abhidhamma at the Foundation in Bangkok, if one has tbe chance to visit. Kevin #106709 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? farrellkevin80 Nina, you wrote: K:> Unfortunately, he suffers from a condition where he gets very bad > migrane headaches, and I don't think he meditates because of that. > I know he gets treatment for the headaches and I remember reading > somewhere (sorry I can't recall off-hand where) that he doesn't > meditate because of them. ------- Nina: Because of his sinus condition he is unable to have as subject mindfulness of breathing. Nina. K: Thank you, Nina. Kevin #106710 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt scottduncan2 Dear Ken O., Regarding: KO: No, I see it quite often that email saying no action, no doing. You should look at the old posts. That is wrong. Anatta is just not self, is not about cetana or citta, it is the characteristic of them but it dont perform their function so the limit of anatta is wrongly apply. The correct view should be there is no actor but there is an acting. Conventional action does not go against the principle of anatta, if not, no one can learn dhamma from Buddha because listening is a conventional action." Scott: Show me these old posts, Ken. I understand anatta. I know it is a characteristic of dhammas and distinct from the specific characteristic of each conditioned dhamma. There is 'acting,' as you put it, but you've misconstrued the so-called dsg view on it. Jon or Sarah might wish to clarify it again, but I think you're not quite correct. I agree that 'listening' is 'conventional action' if by this you mean that the paramattha level would be 'hearing.' Listening would refer to that which is thought about and would reflect many mind-door processes, involve many moments of consciousness and many accompanying mental factors, and be experienced as conceptual and meaningful wholes. KO: "This could also be the same to people who go for retreat meditation, their motivation is also to learn dhamma. They may not be of right view but some of them their motivation could be faith and a believe that this help in developing panna. So theirs which I usually heard is called deliberate while go to Bangkok is not. What is the difference then, isnt all doing with a motivation? Could one claim going to Bkk is not deliberated, why cant they just do dhamma now since they always said that, so why a need to go another place, isnt that contradictary to the principle of understanding dhamma now. So when others do something else, they question with dhammas now, but their own actions is already contradictory to the principle of dhamma right now." Scott: This is the old Meditator stance, Ken. You are suggesting that retreats and 'going to Bangkok to listen to Dhamma' are equivalent. Are you suggesting that one could go on a retreat with right view and get something out of it? Someone with right view wouldn't need a retreat. And do you mean faith as a conventional whole - like, 'I have faith,' or as a mental factor? This is a facile argument. Who would claim that going to Bangkok was not deliberate? Who has claimed this? Show me the posts, Ken. Did you go to Bangkok to discuss Dhamma? Why did you do this? KO: "I am not in any meditator or vipassana camp, I find both ways acceptable but I find both camps have very wrong views of each other practises and their own practise. The meditator camp who think it is just doing meditation and that is called developing samantha bhavana and we have vipassana camp who screech at all conventional actions and concepts and who dont understand that it is the paramatha dhamma that arise with action and concepts that make it wrong." Scott: I'll leave the Meditators out of it. Your claim that the 'vipassana camp' doesn't understand that the paramattha dhamma arises 'with action and concepts' is incorrect. Make this claim directly to Jon or Sarah and see what is said in reply. What is of concern here is that you claim there are methods but fail to explain how these methods are to be understood properly in the light of anatta. 1)I'd like to see you explain whether or not you think there is a one-to-one ratio between conventional and paramattha levels of discourse. 2)I'd like to see you explain the correlation between a description of a method and the ongoing natural laws governing the arising and falling away of dhammas. K: "The level of virtue, mindfulness and panna, I describe is the person which is the one written by Visud. Also, a lot of the meditators think that virture is just the ten precepts, it is more than that, it includes, mindfulness and panna. And having mindfulness and panna, it just the start and not even the taking up the meditation subject yet, there must be seclusion and this is already difficult to find in modern days. Selusion is not doing meditaton retreat because seclusion is away from people and sounds. So much misunderstanding in samatha bhavana." Scott: While I agree in principle with some of these statements, without a good sense of where you are coming from in your overall disagreement with the so-called dsg position, I hesitate to commit. K: "We should hold true to the text and its meaning. It is not to ones interpretation or understanding, if one interpretation differs, we should check whether it is in accordance with the different texts and its meanings." Scott: I find this sort of statement as potentially alienating and misinterpretable as you might find the statements of the satipa.t.thaana advocates. I see you as attempting to formulate a doctrinal bridge that shows how conventionally described methods correspond to ultimate discourse I don't find that I am yet lead to agree that your interpretation of 'method' in the texts jives with my interepretation of the texts in light of the way in which I understand anatta. I agree more or less with some of the directions in which your thinking goes but still find you unable to go beyond your own level of rhetoric to provide a sound argument that bridges the conventional and the ultimate levels of discourse in a way that is true to the ultimate (which I believe is the fundamental and final arbitrator of the way things are and are thought to be). Can you do this? Sincerely, Scott. #106711 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: President of Poland is dead sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Sat, 10/4/10, Lukas wrote: > I am shocked by his dead. Like someone from my family died. I promised myself: Today I will observe all mind and matter in my life. But this is hard. .... S: My sympathies too to you and all Polish people. A very shocking occurrence and so many people involved. We never know when or how kamma will bring about the end of this life for anyone. It's impossible to "observe all mind and matter" and I don't think that "trying" is the way. However, we can be reminded that all that's important is the understanding now of "mind and matter", whatever nama or rupa is appearing. This is the way that equanimity, as opposed to attachment and sadness is cultivated. Slowly, slowly, we have less concern about "Me" - my needs, my losses, my future, my problems. We never know what citta will be conditioned to arise next, whether it be seeing, hearing, thinking or even cuti (death) consciousness. This is the entire world - one citta at a time. And after cuti citta, more bhavanga (life continuum) cittas, more sense impressions, on and on, tragedy after tragedy while avijja (ignorance) persists. Dukkha of all kinds, at all levels. Fortunately, the Buddha taught the way out - satipatthana. Now is the time to begin again, developing awareness and right understanding. Begin again and again... Metta Sarah ======== #106712 From: "Rob" Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:08 am Subject: Re: Study on the development of Jhanas - Clear Comprehension rrobinrb2000 Hi Ken O > As in the Commentary to Satipatthana translated by Soma Thera > > < > Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajańńa]. > Clearly comprehending = Discerning rightly, entirely and equally [samma samantato samańca pajananto].>> Sati-sampajanna is an interesting term. I think most agree more or less on the meaning of sati. I can add 'clear comprehension' to translations for sampajanna. Others I have seen are complete alertness, awareness, self awareness, introspection, & power of correct awareness. I was looking for etymologies. I do not think we need to be linguists. However, sometimes these are helpful, sometimes not. The sanskrit equivalent, if it is different, might help. I also somtimes look at how terms were translated into Tibetan and Chinese. The sanskrit appears to be samprajanya. Sam: Could be samma/samyak indicating with completeness right and proper, correct. Sam is said to a cognate of same. It often functions like the English prefixes com-/con- {in the sense of with or together} or syn-/sym-. pa / pra: Possible cognate of prefixes like pro, pre, per. "It carries the meanings of both the English prefixes ‘pre-’ and ‘pro-’. It means not only ‘prior to’ or ‘before’, but also ‘continuing on’ and ‘going forth’." ~~ Ananda Wood janna/janya: I am stuck here. Translations suggest this could be a phonetic variant with the root nna / jna, meaning 'to know,' but I do think that is correct. Suffix nya/ya? Someone somewhere suggested ya is cognate of -y, -ia / -ion / -ium / -tion / -sion; indicated a property, field, state, condition, process, or action of. I am seeing the word janna {sanskrit janya} in the context of meaning born, or generated. Possibly from the same verbal root as jatam? Ja = to be born, bringing forth, bearing, producing. Janna/Janya could be born from, proceeding from, derived from. Translations of samprajanya: Tibetan: shes bzhin gyi, shes bzhin stobs, shes bzhin gyi stobs, power of awareness, the power of introspection, alertness. Chinese; They used the same words used to translate prajna {panna} and jnana {nnana}, so that tells me nothing. scratching head, robin #106713 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:53 am Subject: Re: Study on the development of Jhanas - Clear Comprehension truth_aerator Hello Robin, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" wrote: > > Hi Ken O > > > As in the Commentary to Satipatthana translated by Soma Thera > > > > < > > > Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajańńa]. > > Clearly comprehending = Discerning rightly, entirely and equally [samma samantato samańca pajananto].>> > > Sati-sampajanna is an interesting term. I think most agree more or less on the meaning of sati. I can add 'clear comprehension' to translations for sampajanna. Others I have seen are complete alertness, awareness, self awareness, introspection, & power of correct awareness. > > I was looking for etymologies. I do not think we need to be >linguists. However, sometimes these are helpful, sometimes not. sati-sampajanna sati = mindfulness/memory sam = with pajanna = pajanati (?) = knows clearly. pajanna from pajanana? = knowledge; understanding; discernment. the program translates satisampajanna as "memory and wisdom." These are very needed considering that 4th Jhana is the purity of "equanimity and mindfulness". ""And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress ?" as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress ?" he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness," http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html With metta, Alex #106714 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:15 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ---------- <. . .> KO:> Hmm an overuse statement on understanding dhamma now.? You mean those disciples under the trees during the Buddha time?are not doing dhamma now at that time :-). If it is not dhamma now,?I was thinking there must be something wrong with all these reciting, 32 parts, they should not write them and confuse people.? ----------- How could there be an overuse of understanding Dhamma now? You clearly haven't got the message, so I would say there has been an under use. :-) --------------- KO: > Hmm Buddha should not have taught?breathing samatha then also.?It is breathing as an object?and not nama and rupa.? Those who think that it is?nama and rupa?could always welcome to join in this discussion :-).?? -------------- What makes you think the Buddha taught samatha? At the time of his birth there were already enough jhana masters for that. The Buddha taught satipatthana. ---------------------- KH: > > . . . why do you need a method? > KO: > Because I still require to listen and read dhamma regularly and having my favourite reading and listening posture :-). ---------------------- Vipassana development requires many moments of panna over the course of many, many lifetimes. You don't! You are just a name - a conventional designation - for the presently arisen five khandhas. You just have to understand whatever dhammas are arising now. Isn't that the best way things could possibly be? What more could you want? ---------- <. . .> KH: > The five khandhas last a trillionth of a second; they can't benefit from a method. KO:? Hmm?method means a permanent self that?is based on one's assumption.?? ----------- Ken, you are arguing against everything, and listening to nothing. Why don't you address what I have said? The five khandhas fall away even before they are experienced. That's how short-lasting they are. So how can they benefit from a ritualistic practice that will last for a period of time into the future? -------------- KO: > Visud are full of methods.? -------------- You can't use that statement in support of your argument because it *is* your argument. This all began when you tried to convince Jon that the Visud taught methods. --------------------- KH: > >There is no need to reject anything. A monk knows there is father and mother, but he knows it in the "particular" way taught by the Buddha, not in the "general" way known by ordinary people (and by dogs and jackals). > > KO:> you are contradictory, first you said all is paramatha, then you said there is father and mother.? Wow now we have?a particular way, are you trying to wriggle a way out :-). ---------------------- Sorry, Ken, I made the mistake of thinking you occasionally listened to what I was saying. Some time ago you and I were discussing the Satipatthana Sutta, and I quoted where the commentaries referred to the "particular way" and the "general way" of knowing the way things were. I have made several references to those two ways in subsequent posts, and I thought, maybe by now, I could do so without repeating the reference. :-) Ken H #106716 From: "Rob" Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:36 am Subject: Re: Study on the development of Jhanas - Clear Comprehension rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > sam = with Yes, like com in complacent. Or sym in sympathey. It can also mean together. Sometimes, sam can be short for samma. I forgot the etymology; but it mean something like complete, prefect, enough, sufficient, total, proper, right, correct. Sam = with + ?? yak or yag. > pajanna from pajanana? = knowledge; understanding; discernment. Could be pa = pre or pro + ja = born + nnana = nna = know + na = the gerundive ing [makes an action noun]. That would imply possessing, being with {sam}, both panna & nnana. Panna is the perquisite; discernment, penetrating wisdom, intelligence, the ability to know. Nnana is the subjective state of knowing; which is born from panna? Food for thought robin #106717 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: President of Poland is dead upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/10/2010 7:26:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Fortunately, the Buddha taught the way out - satipatthana. Now is the time to begin again, developing awareness and right understanding. Begin again and again... ========================= Psst! That's called "trying"! ;-)) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106718 From: si-la-nanda Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? silananda_t Hi, Speculative thoughts are difficult to handle - neither here nor there. It is not as beneficial, not directly beneficial to the one spoken to. I will have to apologise for my inadequacies. I will paste an abstract here instead. One that was posted by the Venerable Samahita: ........................... Friends: *Jhăna Absorption eliminates all Physical Pain!* The Blessed Buddha once pointed out: Where does all bodily pain cease, without any even trace remaining? Aloof of all sense-desire and secluded from any disadvantageous state, one enters and remains in the first jha-na absorption of directed thought and sustained thinking, joined with pleasure and joy, born of sole isolation. It is right there, that all bodily pain ceases without a trace remaining... Comments: Therefore do beings reborn at the fine-material brahma level, never feel any physical pain, since they are continuously absorbed in this first jha-na..! On how to attain the Jha-na absorptions: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Requisites_for_Jhana_Absorption.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Concentration.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Concentration_Samadhi.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/jhaana.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Jhana_Absorption.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/V/Art_of_Absorption.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Samma-Samadhi.htm .......................................... If it is worth it, then try it out for yourselves. We need to be convinced, and stronger & stronger confidence (saddha) arises from experiences along the way. All the best in your practice. Build up on dana, sila, samadhi & panna at the moment, which together culminates in peace & eventual release ... mahakaruna, silananda On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Ken O wrote: > > > Dear Silananda > > The practise for taking up a samatha object is after one has accomplished > virtue and mindfullness and clear comphrension. The sutta and Visud, is > clear on this aspect. Also there is another aspect which is seclusion, that > is the environment is free from noise and people and not just selcusion in > the sense of seating in one corner of a room. It is not linear only when > you have the pre-requsite as stated in Visud and not before having the > pre-requsite because without the mastery over virtue, strong mindfulness and > develop panna, the faculty would not be strong, one will not be able to > concentrate on an object. > > When you said strong sila, sila is not just sila of volitions, it has other > aspects like restraint in mindffulness and restraint by panna, restraint by > energy and restraint by patience. Sila itself includes the other aspect of > development and not just sila as volition. > > Kind regards > Ken O <...> #106719 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:19 pm Subject: Absorbed = Pain Absent! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Jh?na Absorption eliminates all Physical Pain! The Blessed Buddha once pointed out: Where does all bodily pain cease, without any even trace remaining? Aloof of all sense-desire and secluded from any disadvantageous state, one enters and remains in the first jhana absorption of directed thought and sustained thinking, joined with pleasure and joy, born of sole isolation. It is right there, that all bodily pain ceases without a trace remaining... Comments: Therefore do beings reborn at the fine-material brahma level, never feel any physical pain, since they are continuously absorbed in this first jhana..! <..> Microscopic, astronomic, or other visions are not uncommon during jhana Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book V 213-4 The Abilities section 48. Thread on The Irregular Order: Uppatika 40 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #106720 From: Vince Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: President of Poland is dead cerovzt@... Lukas wrote: > I am shocked by his dead. Like someone from my family died. it's hard but one must develop that feeling towards all beings, be close or far. Every hour 500 children die because polluted water and 900 because diseases. We can put a face and a life to all them everyday. Powerful or poor, old or young, death arrives to all. That's the real appearance of this world. Lord Buddha told us this world is a house in flames. When death arrives, everybody will have a destiny according their actions, as a shadow. Vince. #106721 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? ashkenn2k Dear Silananda I am really a persistent person here that always said stick to the texts and not to one's interpretation. Everyone will have their own interpretation due to our own accumulation. The email by Ven Samahita is only one part of the very big picture. Let me explain what is meant by the sutta >*Jhăna Absorption eliminates all Physical Pain!* > >The Blessed Buddha once pointed out: >Where does all bodily pain cease, without any even trace remaining? >Aloof of all sense-desire and secluded from any disadvantageous state, >one enters and remains in the first jha-na absorption of directed thought >and sustained thinking, joined with pleasure and joy, born of sole >isolation. >It is right there, that all bodily pain ceases without a trace remaining... > >Comments: >Therefore do beings reborn at the fine-material brahma level, never feel >any physical pain, since they are continuously absorbed in this first >jha-na..! KO: During jhanas, there is a great rush of pleasureable feelings and that inhibits bodily pain. Because one can only experience one feeling at a time. But that does not mean there is no bodily pain in the sensual world after one emerges from Jhanas. Even the great one, Buddha himself also experiences bodily pain after he attained his omniscient enlightement. Also the road to salvation is not to attain first jhanas to escape from bodily pain, because that is wrong view thinking 1st Jhanas or all jhanas is Nibbana, the escape. The escape is Nibbana and not jhanas. Even those who are highly accomplished in jhanas must emerge from it to develop insight. There are four ways to attain right concentration and not exclusively to just attaining jhanas even though it is most popular description to right concentration. Kind regards Ken O > >From: s??l?]anda >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Sunday, 11 April 2010 11:10:17 >Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? > > >Hi, > >Speculative thoughts are difficult to handle - neither here nor there. It is >not as beneficial, not directly beneficial to the one spoken to. I will have >to apologise for my inadequacies. > >I will paste an abstract here instead. One that was posted by the Venerable >Samahita: > >............ ......... ...... > >Friends: > >*Jhăna Absorption eliminates all Physical Pain!* > >The Blessed Buddha once pointed out: >Where does all bodily pain cease, without any even trace remaining? >Aloof of all sense-desire and secluded from any disadvantageous state, >one enters and remains in the first jha-na absorption of directed thought >and sustained thinking, joined with pleasure and joy, born of sole >isolation. >It is right there, that all bodily pain ceases without a trace remaining... > >Comments: >Therefore do beings reborn at the fine-material brahma level, never feel >any physical pain, since they are continuously absorbed in this first >jha-na..! > >On how to attain the Jha-na absorptions: >http://What- Buddha-Said. net/drops/ Requisites_ for_Jhana_ Absorption. htm >http://What- Buddha-Said. net/drops/ What_is_Right_ Concentration. htm >http://What- Buddha-Said. net/drops/ III/Concentratio n_Samadhi. htm >http://What- Buddha-Said. net/library/ DPPN/wtb/ g_m/jhaana. htm >http://What- Buddha-Said. net/drops/ IV/Jhana_ Absorption. htm >http://What- Buddha-Said. net/drops/ V/Art_of_ Absorption. htm >http://What- Buddha-Said. net/drops/ Samma-Samadhi. htm >............ ......... ......... ......... ... > >If it is worth it, then try it out for yourselves. We need to be convinced, >and stronger & stronger confidence (saddha) arises from experiences along >the way. >All the best in your practice. >Build up on dana, sila, samadhi & panna at the moment, which together >culminates in peace & eventual release ... > >mahakaruna, >silananda > >On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Ken O wrote: > >> >> >> Dear Silananda >> >> The practise for taking up a samatha object is after one has accomplished >> virtue and mindfullness and clear comphrension. The sutta and Visud, is >> clear on this aspect. Also there is another aspect which is seclusion, that >> is the environment is free from noise and people and not just selcusion in >> the sense of seating in one corner of a room. It is not linear only when >> you have the pre-requsite as stated in Visud and not before having the >> pre-requsite because without the mastery over virtue, strong mindfulness and >> develop panna, the faculty would not be strong, one will not be able to >> concentrate on an object. >> >> When you said strong sila, sila is not just sila of volitions, it has other >> aspects like restraint in mindffulness and restraint by panna, restraint by >> energy and restraint by patience. Sila itself includes the other aspect of >> development and not just sila as volition. >> >> Kind regards >> Ken O ><...> > > #106722 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study on the development of Jhanas - Clear Comprehension ashkenn2k Dear Robin and Alex >> Sati-sampajanna is an interesting term. I think most agree more or less on the meaning of sati. I can add 'clear comprehension' to translations for sampajanna. Others I have seen are complete alertness, awareness, self awareness, introspection, & power of correct awareness. >> Clear comprehension is the correct rendering because without clear comprehension there is no difference in our practise with others.? Other recluses?who have attained?jhanas,? must?have strong mindfulness but they dont comprehen?that there is no self in these dhamma.? They?continue to?cling to a self even though they are able to withdrawn from sensual pleasure as the latency of self is not eradicated.? That is why Buddha said, even those?recluses who attain?jhanas continues to go round in samasara. So clear comprehension is to know there is only dhamma and not a self in these actions.?? Understanding text in the sutta is not just literal or the history of the words, the meaning should be know also and the meaning should be consistent throughout the texts. Kind regards Ken O #106723 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Ken H >----------- > >How could there be an overuse of understanding Dhamma now? You clearly haven't got the message, so I would say there has been an under use. :-) > >------------ --- KO:? Now you are saying that,?in the earlier email there is satipatthana later which means samatha bhavana means later than do.? That is not true, so disciples are doing samatha bhavana now and not later. ? >KO: > Hmm Buddha should not have taught?breathing samatha then also.?It is breathing as an object?and not nama and rupa.? Those who think that it is?nama and rupa?could always welcome to join in this discussion :-).?? >------------ -- > >What makes you think the Buddha taught samatha? At the time of his birth there were already enough jhana masters for that. The Buddha taught satipatthana. >------------ --------- - KO:? I could show?you many examples, could you show me that Buddha never taught?samatha bhavana.???Buddha taught satipatthana, he also taught on the methods to do satipatthana and it not exclusively vipassana bhavana. >------------ --------- - > >Vipassana development requires many moments of panna over the course of many, many lifetimes. You don't! You are just a name - a conventional designation - for the presently arisen five khandhas. You just have to understand whatever dhammas are arising now. > >Isn't that the best way things could possibly be? What more could you want? > >---------- KO:? Hmm are you trying to test my understanding again :-).? >----------- > >Ken, you are arguing against everything, and listening to nothing. Why don't you address what I have said? The five khandhas fall away even before they are experienced. That's how short-lasting they are. So how can they benefit from a ritualistic practice that will last for a period of time into the future? > >------------ -- KO:?I am arguing over the assumptions that are wrongly apply to the dhamma.???? Does the understanding of paramatha dhamma suggest we should not be doing anything since it is a short while??? Is your learning of dhamma is a short while or a conventional while?? Does this understanding of shortness prevent one from listening and learning dhamma??? >------------ -- > >You can't use that statement in support of your argument because it *is* your argument. This all began when you tried to convince Jon that the Visud taught methods. > >------------ --------- KO:? I? have already shown many examples of method, do you want me to show you again? I am most happy to.? Even Jon or Sarah or?no dinosaur?has yet show me?any text that say Buddha dont taught methods for samatha bhavana, so do you want to be the first to?show?me then.??? >------------ --------- - > >Sorry, Ken, I made the mistake of thinking you occasionally listened to what I was saying. Some time ago you and I were discussing the Satipatthana Sutta, and I quoted where the commentaries referred to the "particular way" and the "general way" of knowing the way things were. I have made several references to those two ways in subsequent posts, and I thought, maybe by now, I could do so without repeating the reference. :-) KO:??You could always take it out and discuss again.?:-)? Kind regards Ken O #106724 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: President of Poland is dead nilovg Hi Howard, Op 11-apr-2010, om 5:27 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Psst! That's called "trying"! ;-)) ------- N: I know this is by way of joke. But in earnest, when hearing exhortations in conventional language there need not be misunderstanidngs. The kusala citta will have courage and energy. Such exhortations are very valuable. Nina. #106725 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? / useful nilovg Dear Kevin, No need for apology about delay of answer. You are working and do not need to answre all mails. I am delaying a lot, since I can hardly cope with my work, in the house, etc. That is why I try to keep my answers short. Yes, New York is great, we just know Central Park. Glad you found a good place to read Dhamma. Op 10-apr-2010, om 6:31 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > If a monk knowingly lies about his attainments of jhana or one of > the stages of enlightenment, to anyone wether they be bhikkhu or > layperson, it is paraajika. If, however, a bhikkhu truthfully tells > any of those attainments to another bhikkhu then there is no > offense (if it is false but the bhikkhu who is relaying his > experience believes it to be true attainment himself then there is > no offense as well, as far as I know). If a bhikkhu tells a > layperson truthfully (or the bhikkhu believes it is true himself > and tells the layperson) then there is an offense that I believe > only entails confession (not sure of the actual class, though I am > sure that it is not a paraajika though. I believe Alex already > explained this and it appears he provided links to an online > document with the rules (thank you Alex). This way bhikkhus can > tell their lay supporers about it if they feel it would be good. ------- N: From Rob K's forum I understood it is not good to talk about attainments, but I do not know details. Thanks for the info. > -------- > Nina: > Robin is interested in chanting, and I want to ask Kevin: is there > any monastery where Abhidhamma is chanted? Kh Sujin mentioned once > that at a cremation Abhidhamma texts are chanted, and I want to know > which ones. Is it about aniccaa? > > Kevin: Nina, absolutely. The monks do chant from the Abhidamma at > funerals. Robert once told me what verse it was but unfortunately I > cannot recall (bad memory). > ------- N: I just appreciate that. Nina. #106726 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Scott ? > >Scott: Show me these old posts, Ken. I understand anatta. I know it is a characteristic of dhammas and distinct from the specific characteristic of each conditioned dhamma. There is 'acting,' as you put it, but you've misconstrued the so-called dsg view on it. Jon or Sarah might wish to clarify it again, but I think you're not quite correct. KO:? <<> =============== Sure, effort *is* mental factor. However it doesn't mean that there is no effort. > =============== The mental factor of effort does not manifest as (conventional) directed effort. One is a dhamma, the other is discursive thinking involving wishing/intending to do something,>> KO:? If the mental factor does not manifest,?no one will be able to listen.? ?It is manifest at the paramatha level that present itself in the conventional level but it is the understanding that this mental factor is dhamma.? So the application of paramatha dhamma at the conventional level should be done correctly and not just base on the basis of the paramatha dhamma.? (see below for the details explanation) >Scott: This is the old Meditator stance, Ken. You are suggesting that retreats and 'going to Bangkok to listen to Dhamma' are equivalent. Are you suggesting that one could go on a retreat with right view and get something out of it? Someone with right view wouldn't need a retreat. >And do you mean faith as a conventional whole - like, 'I have faith,' or as a mental factor? This is a facile argument. Who would claim that going to Bangkok was not deliberate? Who has claimed this? Show me the posts, Ken. Did you go to Bangkok to discuss Dhamma? Why did you do this? > KO:? Faith must arise in the paramtha level before it could manifest itself in the conventional level.? I just?want to show that there is no distinction in?the convention actions, the distinction is the motivation.? the understanding of the motivation.? So when people tell me it is dhamma now, then why go Bkk, why listen to dhamma talk, why read dhamma books.? It must be apply correctly.? Just like those in the suttas, it must be apply correctly and in what context. ** I went to Bkk because of wanting?to know?dhamma?friends :-).?? I enjoy knowing and interacting with them.? Just that no good english TV channels at KK >Scott: I'll leave the Meditators out of it. Your claim that the 'vipassana camp' doesn't understand that the paramattha dhamma arises 'with action and concepts' is incorrect. Make this claim directly to Jon or Sarah and see what is said in reply. > >What is of concern here is that you claim there are methods but fail to explain how these methods are to be understood properly in the light of anatta. > >1)I'd like to see you explain whether or not you think there is a one-to-one ratio between conventional and paramattha levels of discourse. > >2)I'd like to see you explain the correlation between a description of a method and the ongoing natural laws governing the arising and falling away of dhammas. KO:?If the underlying paramatha dhamma does not arise, it would not manifest in the conventional level.? this is talking in terms of those who have yet attain vipassana nana???The nature of dhamma or anatta does not determine it is against anatta.? Even the arising of miccha ditthi. dosa and moha?is also anatta.?? This is the first distinction.? The second is the accompanying cetasikas.??On mental proliferation,?is it?the conceit, ditthi and cravings or the object itself that cause these mental proliferation??? It is not the object (even though object could be a paccaya), be it a concept or not, it is the paramatha dhamma that arise that is the cause of these proliferation.?? So in this way, the nature of method does not go against the flow of anatta,? it is just the conceptual object of the citta and the proliferation of the method is the?cetasikas that follow.? >Scott: I find this sort of statement as potentially alienating and misinterpretable as you might find the statements of the satipa.t.thaana advocates. I see you as attempting to formulate a doctrinal bridge that shows how conventionally described methods correspond to ultimate discourse I don't find that I am yet lead to agree that your interpretation of 'method' in the texts jives with my interepretation of the texts in light of the way in which I understand anatta. > KO:??The problem is that there is a believe there is only way to satipatthana which is the vipassana bhavana.? ?If you read the satipatthana commentary and Visuds, the development of satipatthana is not just vipassana bhavana, samatha bhavana could also be a development of it.? Also the commentaries and Visud show that breathing is a method like counting breath 1 to 10,?and finally?it culiminates in jhanas which is?used as a basis of insight.?? >I agree more or less with some of the directions in which your thinking goes but still find you unable to go beyond your own level of rhetoric to provide a sound argument that bridges the conventional and the ultimate levels of discourse in a way that is true to the ultimate (which I believe is the fundamental and final arbitrator of the way things are and are thought to be). Can you do this? > KO:? To bring the gap two things must be understood a.??? conventional level is the nimitta of paramatha dhamma, if the underlying paramatha dhamma does not arise, the conventional level will not manifest.? b.??? all our understanding are conventional and starts conventionally. Our actions?be it listening and reading are conventional?and we need these actions as it is a mean to an end.? Even though conventional action does not exist at?paramatha level, we cannot say just because at paramatha level it does not exist then there should not?be any cnoventional actions.??It should be comprehen correctly.?? There is hearing and mind door process in listening but we understand it is no one that hear, no one that cognise the words.??So in this way, the application of paramatha dhamma should be?using paramatha dhamma?to have the correct view and?understanding of conventional dhamma, and not using paramatha dhamma as against the understanding of conventional dhamma.????Then one will slowly?know at the conventional level, it is just dhamma and slowly develop the understanding of it until vipassana nana or paramatha level. Kind regards Ken O #106727 From: "Rob" Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:31 am Subject: Re Clear Comprehension / translations in general rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Robin and Alex > > > >> Sati-sampajanna is an interesting term. I think most agree more or less on the meaning of sati. I can add 'clear comprehension' to translations for sampajanna. Others I have seen are complete alertness, awareness, self awareness, introspection, & power of correct awareness. > >> > > Clear comprehension is the correct rendering Whoa. English did not exist as a language when the Buddha was in the world, so it seems rather ludicrous to say one rendering is correct. There are actually quite a few direct cognates; but even those do not really work. Word contruction is not the same, and nuance is often difference. At any rate, Thanissaro Bhikkhu renders sampajanna as 'alertness.' Soma Thera translated it as 'clearly comprehending.' There are other translations as well. I have been doing this a while and seen accepted translations change. I have gone away for a few years, come back, and found that previously accepted translations had been widely rejected. So I try not to get too attached. Soma Thera may have been right as rain on sampajanna. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, has anusaya as obsessions; which does not work for me. Tendency, inclinations or proclivities seem more accurate. Maurice O'Connell Walshe renders anusaya as proclivity. On the other hand, I prefer Thanissaro Bhikkhu's rendering of nibbana over the more literal extinguish[ing] or the much worse 'extinction.' 25 years ago, extinction was widely accepted. That is likely a poor rendering, because the nuance behind the symbolism of blowing out a candle was much different in India 2500 years ago. My point is that that the same Pali word can be translated various ways, and it is useful to look at all of them. The same translator might nail one word real well; but be off on another. #106728 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:04 am Subject: Reminder: Salutation, sign-off, trimming etc dsgmods Hi All, Just a couple of reminders. Salutations & sign-offs Please make it clear whom your post is addressed to (even if it's 'All'), and sign off at the end of every post (whether short or long) with your name. Trimming When replying to another member’s post, please remember to delete any part of the other post that is not necessary for your reply. Please also review the rest of the guidelines from time to time. They can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Thanks for your co-operation. Jon and Sarah PS As usual, any comments on this - off-list only. Thanks. #106729 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:23 am Subject: Re: Overcoming wrong view....for now sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > As for the wrong view that believes in self, well, there are moments of reflection on paramattha topics, now and then. I wouldn't say there are moments of awareness of present realities or anything like that, but mayube there are. Mostly there are just moments of thinking about paramattha dhammas, and of course that is just thinking about concepts, but at least it represents moments of getting a little closer to the truth! But sakkaya ditthi doesn't seem like a very horrible thing when you are dealing with impulses that are pushing to completely reject the Buddha's teaching and go back to living in the beastly way you did before... .... S: Isn't it because of sakkaya ditthi and thereby not seeing the truth that there are such "impulses that are pushing to completely reject the Buddha's teaching and go back to living in the beastly way you did before" ? Aren't the grossest of defilements only eradicated when sakkaya ditthi is eradicated? ... > Catch you again in a few weeks/months... ... S: Whenever...:-) Metta Sarah ======= #106730 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? sarahprocter... Hi Alex & Kevin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > As for CMA, I think it implies that if one is reborn triple-rooted, then one can attain the paths/fruits and the jhanas. ... S: Or it implies that unless one is reborn triple-rooted, there is no chance at all of attaining the paths/fruits and the jhanas in that life!! Kevin, appreciating your many helpful contributions. When you have a little time, also take a look in "Useful Posts" under Jhana. In particular, "Jhana today?", "Jhana and nibbana", "Samsara - decline". The first of these sections, "Jhana today" looks at saved messages discussing just your question. I'm also thinking of the sutta in AN (Alex, perhaps you can help quote it for me) which lists the 5(?) signs of the decline of the Teachings, one of which being the decline in the Jhana attainments. Elsewhere it's quoted without reference to the Jhana attainments but with something else in place. Sorry, a bit rushed to look up texts now. .... > >A: As I understand suttas, unless one has commited grave kamma, or has serious result of grave kamma - one can attain jhana if all the conditions are right. ... S: "If all the conditions are right". If all the conditions are right, one could become an arahat right now! If.... Metta Sarah ========= #106731 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > KO:??? There must be faith first before we first embark the understanding path, without convictions, how could one wanted to learn dhamma in the first place.? Thereafer panna is the forerunner, but then we cannot discount faith as an impt faculty to help in to condition understanding to arise.??The Path of Discrimination, Treatise of Faculties,?pg 234, para 130 > < Psst! That's called "trying"! ;-)) ------- N: I know this is by way of joke. But in earnest, when hearing exhortations in conventional language there need not be misunderstanidngs. The kusala citta will have courage and energy. Such exhortations are very valuable. ---------------------------------------------- Of COURSE they are, Nina! I would be among the first to say so! :-) ----------------------------------------- Nina. ========================== With metta, Howard "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" — _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) #106733 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? sarahprocter... Dear Scott & Chris, Scott, many thanks for your references to Pali terms. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > S: "...This is the difficulty of taking a term like 'imagination' and asking for an Abhidhamma explanation, isn't it? Easier to start with the Abhidhamma explanations.....:). > > Scott: Yup. Here are some Paa.li words to consider (PTS PED), since it might make more sense to determine whether any terms in Paa.li might approach the idea of 'imagination.' > > "Sankappa [...cp. kappeti fig. meaning] thought, intention, purpose, plan...As equivalent of vitakka...Sankappa is defd at DhsA 124 as (cetaso) abhiniropanaa, i. e. application of the mind..." > > "Kappeti [Der. from kappa...shape, form...karoti to shape, to make, cp. karoti] to cause to fit, to create, build, construct, arrange, prepare, order...II. fig. 1. in special sense: to construct or form an opinion, to conjecture, to think Sn 799; DA i.103; -- 2. generally: to ordain, prescribe, determine...kappaapeti to cause to be made in all senses of kappeti..." .... Sarah: Dvedhaavitakka Sutta: MN 19 (~Naa.namoli, Bodhi transl): 6."Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of sensual desire, he has abandoned the thought of renunciation to cultivate the thought of sensual desire, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of sensual desire. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of ill-will...upon thoughts of cruelty, he has abandoned the thought of non-cruelty to cultivate the thought of cruelty, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of cruetly." ["Ya~n~nadeva, bhikkhave, bhikkhu bahulamanuvitakketi anuvicaareti, tathaa tathaa nati hoti cetaso. Kaamavitakka.m ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu bahulamanuvitakketi anuvicaareti, pahaasi nekkhammavitakka.m, kaamavitakka.m bahulamakaasi, tassa ta.m kaamavitakkaaya citta.m namati. Byaapaadavitakka.m ce, bhikkhave…pe… vihi.msaavitakka.m ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu bahulamanuvitakketi anuvicaareti, pahaasi avihi.msaavitakka.m, vihi.msaavitakka.m bahulamakaasi, tassa ta.m vihi.msaavitakkaaya citta.m namati."] S: And conversely.... 11. "Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of renuniciation, he has abandoned the thought of sensual desire to cultivate the thought of renunciation, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of renunciation. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of non-ill will...upon thoughts of non-cruetly, he has abandoned the thought of cruelty to cultivate the thought of non-cruelty, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of non-cruetly." Metta Sarah ======= #106734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 9-apr-2010, om 12:49 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > KO: Yes conventional speech must be used to teach the dhamma. But > could one listen to dhamma without conventional actions. The > usual statements I heard is there is no conventional action, then I > think how do we listen then. Could one deny the need of > conventional action in developing the path. Do conventional > actions means a wrong view? What are your thought on this. --------- N: I did not hear Kh Sujin use the expression conventional action. It may give rise to all kinds of thoughts, perhaps confusing, I do not know. I was glad to be reminded at the Thai sessions of paramattha dhammas all the time: citta and cetasikas motivate actions. Kh Sujin stressed: remember that not a self is listening. She also said; it is not forbidden to think of conventional truth. Just know the difference. When sati arises and there is awareness of one naama or ruupa there is the world of ultimate truth. All the rest, all this thinking about people and things that stay, that is conventional truth. Most of the time I am with conventional truth and I do not need reminders of it. I need reminders of ultimate truth. I do not deny the importance of concepts, we need them in the world, but I am not so interested to discuss these. Better learn more about naama and ruupa that appear now. Nina. > #106735 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, On visiting stupas, relics and so on... --- On Tue, 6/4/10, scottduncan2 wrote: >Sarah: "And if one went again in order to have more kusala, that would just be attachment, even silabbataparamasa depending... It doesn't mean one doesn't notice when kusala arises, however, as Ken did." >Scott: Just to clarify - would going in order to have kusala rule out having kusala or simply be irrelevant? In other words, would kusala arise or not independent of one thinking that going would be condition for it? .... Sarah: At that moment of wishing to have more kusala, there is attachment. Of course there can be kusala later, depending on conditions. Accumulated kusala is the main condition for kusala later, but, as we know, even ignorance and attachment may be a condition for kusala by pakatu-upanissaya paccaya. Remember D.O and how attachment and ignorance lead to the entire cycle in samsara. So this doesn't mean it's advantageous to cultivate ordinary attachment at all, but if there's wrong view involved, this is what is dangerous. .... >If one follows a rule ('thus should ye train yourselves') , for example, the exhortation to examine whether or not one lives 'uncontrolled' or 'well-controlled' (Sacittasutta. m, AN 10,6) is the introspection (sacittapariyaayaku salo) that one engages in, as described by the Buddha, kusala or akusala? .... Sarah: Of course what the Buddha described was for our (kusala) welfare, but again in depends on one's interpretation and accumulations whether the reflections are kusala or akusala. As far as I read such texts, the Buddha is stressing the importance of understanding kusala and akusala, the various dhammas in our life. He's not encouraging anyone to accumulate self-view or an idea that a Self can control anything. If you'd like to discuss the text in more detail, we can do that. .... >>Sarah: "You were having a discussion with Ken O about a Vism passage - a 'should' reciting passage. Instead of reading/translating it as 'should recite', it can be read as may be recited. Again, it's the understanding of conditioned dhammas that is important." >Scott: Yes, Ken O. has become rather adamant about this lately. And you and I have discussed the 'may be' aspect of things. How do you understand the Buddha's oft-stated 'thus you should train yourselves (sikkhitabba. m)?' .... Sarah: Without studying, training, understanding the dhammas now, there will be no development of the path. The studying of these realities (with direct understanding of them) is to be pursued, is to be developed, but by panna, not by Self. ... >Sarah: "...The dhamma is about understanding conditioned realities as anatta after all, not about attempting to make them behave in any way whatsoever.. ." >Scott: Anatta makes sense to me. In this case you are referring to satipa.t.thaana. What about other apparently mundane, conventional things the Buddha refers to when he says, 'thus, monks, should ye train yourselves?' ... Sarah: Aren't these also about understanding dhammas for what they are? For example, when he stresses seeing the smallest faults, how is this possible without the development of saipatthana or the path leading to satipatthana, depending on the understanding of the listeners? Just because he didn't mention "anatta" in every sutta doesn't mean it is not implied. Again we can discuss any texts in more detail if you're interested. If we agree (as we do) that the development of satipatthana is to become detached from everything, even jhana, it's clear that the intention to have jhana in order to have vipassana is wrong and indicates a lack of understanding of the development of samatha and vipassana. Whatever the particular tendencies, any desire to have such states such as jhana or insight, hinders the development. Even a very slight wish for any attainment hinders the development immediately and leads away from the path. This, I understand, is what is meant by natural development of samatha and satipatthana. Any wish, expectation or trying to attain anything prevents the development of detachment from all that is conditioned in life at this moment. Always good to discuss with you, Scott, and what I've written is probably more for others with different understandings than for you, as I know you already appreciate these points. Any signs of Spring in your part of Canada yet? Metta Sarah ====== #106736 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >S: "One who understands has faith..." So who is the one who understands? > >A few lines above in this same section you quoted from, para 127: > >"To the extent of the meaning of suffering in suffering it is known, there is no meaning of suffering unknown, he is thus the All-seer. All-seeing-ness is the understanding faculty. **Through the understanding faculty there is the faith faculty** in the sense of resolution, the energy faculty in the sense of exertion, the mindfulness faculty in the sense of establishing, and the concentration faculty in the sense of non-distraction. " > >In the suttas, who do we read is the one who has unwavering confidence in the Triple Gem? Only the ariyan disciples. Saddha develops with panna, not before it. KO:? You are right the text pointed to All Seer who is the Buddha.??that part I am wrong.?? I am not refering to the unwavering confidence of the triple Gem because that is sotapanna.? ?MN 70 (Kitagiri Sutta) <> ? KO:? I am refering to this faith and not the unwavering faith in the sotapanna.?? To say faith develop with panna that is also possible but not necessary?always with?panna, faith can condition panna in the next series of?mind door?to arise just like sati also can condition that.? ??? ? ? Kind regard Ken O #106738 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:23 pm Subject: The Counterfeits of the True Dhamma truth_aerator Hello Sarah, all, > wrote: > > Hi Alex & Kevin, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > As for CMA, I think it implies that if one is reborn triple-rooted, then one can attain the paths/fruits and the jhanas. > ... > S: Or it implies that unless one is reborn triple-rooted, there is >no chance at all of attaining the paths/fruits and the jhanas in >that life!! Right. However it also seems that such a person would not have much interest in Dhamma in order to work hard at developing morality, restraint, understanding, etc. > I'm also thinking of the sutta in AN (Alex, perhaps you can help >quote it for me) which lists the 5(?) signs of the decline of the >Teachings, one of which being the decline in the Jhana attainments. >Elsewhere it's quoted without reference to the Jhana attainments but >with something else in place. Sorry, a bit rushed to look up texts >now. One of the suttas is SN16.13 ""The true Dhamma does not disappear all at once in the way a sink ships. There are, Kassapa, five detrimental things that lead to the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma. What are the five? Here the bhikkhus, the bhikkhunis, the male lay followers, and the female lay followers dwell without reverence and deference towards the Teacher; they dwell without reverence and deference towards the Dhamma; they dwell without reverence and deference towards the Sangha; they dwell without reverence and deference towards the training; they dwell without reverence and deference towards concentration. These, Kassapa, are the five detrimental things that lead to the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma." BB translation SN16.13 The Counterfeit of the True Dhamma Another: "There will be, in the course of the future, monks undeveloped in body,1 undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment. They ? being undeveloped in body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment ? will give full ordination to others and will not be able to discipline them in heightened virtue, heightened mind, heightened discernment. These too will then be undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment. They ? being undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment ? will give full ordination to still others and will not be able to discipline them in heightened virtue, heightened mind, heightened discernment. These too will then be undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment. Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma. "[undeveloped teachers.monks] ? will take on others as students and will not be able to discipline them in heightened virtue, heightened mind, heightened discernment. These too will then be undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment. They ? being undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment ? will take on still others as students and will not be able to discipline them in heightened virtue, heightened mind, heightened discernment. These too will then be undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment. Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma. ... ...will not listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata ? deep, profound, transcendent, connected with the Void [alex: sunnata] ? are being recited. They will not lend ear, will not set their hearts on knowing them, will not regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works ? the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples ? are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping and mastering. Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma. "And again, there will be in the course of the future monks undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment. They ? being undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment ? will become elders living in luxury, lethargic, foremost in falling back, shirking the duties of solitude. They will not make an effort for the attaining of the as-yet-unattained, the reaching of the as-yet-unreached, the realization of the as-yet-unrealized. They will become an example for later generations, who will become luxurious in their living, lethargic, foremost in falling back, shirking the duties of solitude, and who will not make an effort for the attaining of the as-yet-unattained, the reaching of the as-yet-unreached, the realization of the as-yet-unrealized. Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.079.than.html With metta, Alex #106739 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Nina >I do not deny the importance of concepts, we need them in the world, >but I am not so interested to discuss these. Better learn more about >naama and ruupa that appear now. > its ok,? Before I end this conversation, it is not the concepts that we should be mindful of,? it should be?the aksuala cetasikas that?arise with it.??There are two ways to?understand concepts,?to know it as?thinking?or?the other way is?to understand the cetasikas that arise with it.? Either way is fine because we are penetrating the characteristics of anatta in the?dhamma and not the concepts themselves, Cheers Ken? O #106740 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Nina) - In a message dated 4/11/2010 12:45:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Nina >I do not deny the importance of concepts, we need them in the world, >but I am not so interested to discuss these. Better learn more about >naama and ruupa that appear now. > its ok, Before I end this conversation, it is not the concepts that we should be mindful of, it should be the aksuala cetasikas that arise with it. There are two ways to understand concepts, to know it as thinking or the other way is to understand the cetasikas that arise with it. Either way is fine because we are penetrating the characteristics of anatta in the dhamma and not the concepts themselves, ------------------------------------------------------- Ken, I think this is a marvelous reply - both practical and fresh! It zeroes in on two really useful practices associated with "concepts." Excellent, IMO! ----------------------------------------------------- Cheers Ken O ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106741 From: "Rob" Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Citta and vinnana have the same meaning. Hi Ssrah I neither agree nor didagree. Manas too? Have you read the late ven, Walpola Rahula's essay that discusses this? My view is that these are near synonyms; but there are shades of meanings. Vinnana = The discriminative consciousness that 'knows' sensory input -- sights, sounds, aromas, flavors, textures, and compounded phenomena. Manas = Different from mano-vinnana. The discriminative consciousness that deals with abstract or intangible concepts and noumena Citta - accumulated consciousness in general. The same as alaya, sort of. Can be compounded, stained with adventitious defilements -- alaya; or not -- vimala or amala. This is just my take right now. I am not excessively attached to it. robin #106742 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg gazita2002 hallo Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: ......... > I don't know what Ken O's on to yet but what if he is on to something? What if he isn't just doing an about face and caving to some sort of pervasive doctrinal pressure? Is this a fold to which errant sheep have to be returned when we discuss 'amongst ourselves?' I think we've been taking stands against meditators for too long. How can we discuss with 'one of our own?' azita: Not sure how to answer these qs. you see, i dont think i have a stand against meditators. I figure we have all come to this point right here and now by numerous ways and means, so to say 'youre wrong and I'm right' too harsh for me and I cant prove to anyone that this is the case. What I've heard and learnt over the years certainly feels the right way, but guess I dont have the confidence in the face of someone who is convinced their way is right, to discuss too much. I have close friends who are meditators and I find it more comfortable to discuss common ground with them or nothing at all! > > Anatta is one thing. Conventional versus absolute level of discourse is another. With the above you haven't really addressed the heart of the matter: How, in the light of anatta, is one to understand the conventionally worded exhortations of the Buddha to train one's self thusly? azita: its like trying to mix oil with water:) Scott: Yes, anything we imagine we are doing is simply a series of things doing themselves, as it were, and trailing reams and clouds of thinking miasma about it. > > What does it mean for the Buddha to suggest that we think a certain way about something (which he does)? How would thinking this way be condition for kusala? azita: conventionally speaking, I think the Buddha wanted us to think a certain way bec its far more beneficial to think with metta, for example than with dosa. Isnt this what Sukin often calls pariyatti? To learn, to know what is beneficial and what is not. Then if there was prior learning this kind of 'exhortation' may be a condition for kusala. Do you occasionally find yrself, Scott, keeping yr mouth shut instead of saying something you'll regret, without 'trying' - it kinda just occurs to say nothing. This happens for me since being more interested in Buddha's teaching, whereas before I would have really got into the gossip, for example. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #106743 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg gazita2002 hallo KenO, apologies, I have just posted to Scott and should have included yr name in that address, as I think I may have answered some of yr comments as well Patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Azita > ? > > >azita: I'm gonna do a KenH here - luvyaKH - what else would the Buddha be talking about but anatta. There is no training in Paramattha sense, there are no monks etc there are just dhammas here fleetingly and gone. There is wisdom, there is hiri and ottapa, there is energy for kusala but it does not belong to anyone, but you know this anyway Scott I think. > > KO:???Understanding paramatha dhamma does?not mean?rejecting of concepts or eliminating concepts from the development of understanding.? Understanding paramatha dhamma is to understand the citta or cetasikas that arise with an object, and the object can be concepts or dhamma.? Understanding paramatha is to understand craving that arise with a lovely being and not the lovely being which is a object of citta.? It is impossible to eliminate concepts because they are not real, but it is possible to eradicate wrong view and craving because?they?are?real.? The development of satipatthana is the?elimination of akusala?paramatha dhammas?and not the eliminating of concepts.? > > Also there is no training in paramatha sense, then why do you listen and read dhamma, you should?not?that because it is not paramatha?:-). > > Wisdom dont interest, dont will, it is just understanding of the characteristics.? If it is not cetana, how do you listen?? If it is not chanda, how you have interest and perference in learning?dhamma.? No one interest, it is chanda that interest, no one act, it is cetana that acts :-).? But to say no act and no interest or perference, that is not the correct?understanding of paramatha dhammas. > > > cheers > Ken O #106744 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:44 am Subject: Re: Character encoding ptaus1 Hi all, Part 5 - typing and keyboard layout - so this is concerned with inputing text. Generally speaking, a keyboard layout is a small application that handles the data that comes from your keyboard when you press the keys - it basically matches certain numbers to the actual keys you are hitting, and these numbers are later transformed into letters on the screen by the encoding and font. There are many ways that these numbers are matched to keys, and you can even make your own - so that would be making a custom keyboard layout. So, first I'll talk about the layouts you most probably have on your computer, and then we'll talk about how to make a custom one if you want (like for creating specific shortcuts for Pali letters with diacritics). Mac: 1. You can change your keyboard layout by clicking on the little flag in the top right corner next to the clock - this would give you a drop-down menu with several layouts and other options to choose from depending on the setup. 2. For general text, like using standard Latin letters, most keyboard layouts are almost identical (all the numbers match), so if you are using U.S., UK, Australian, etc, these should be okay in most occasions. Most of these keyboard layouts will be MacRoman-based though, i.e. not Unicode, and might be even more different if it's a non-English OS. So, there might be some problems with less-common characters like punctuation signs, and you won't be able to input unicode characters that correspond to Latin Pali letters with diacritics. 3. One way to input latin Pali letters with diacritics is to open "Character palette" - it's located in the same drop-down menu when you click on the little flag in the top right corner. Once you open the palette, you can select Unicode in it as your character set, and then select and insert the actual letter you need from the character tables available. Of course, this is suited if you need to insert one or two characters, but if you need more, then it's very time-consuming this way and it's much better to switch to a Unicode-based keyboard layout. 4. For the record, you can also use the character palette in TextEdit - it's opened in the same way as above, or through TextEdit menu: Edit -> Special Characters. In Microsoft Word for Mac, you can insert the special characters by clicking in the Word menu: Insert -> Symbol. Though remember that some older applications like Word might not support Unicode letters at all. 5. So, to be sure that your input is Unicode-compliant and especially if you want to type Latin Pali letters with diacritics, you can switch to Unicode-based keyboard layout. In most cases, for English-based operating systems, you will have a keyboard-layout called "U.S.Extended" in the drop-down menu when you click on the little flag. If it's not in that menu, then in the same menu click on "Open International". This will open your System Preferences International tab (Input Menu), where you can locate the Extended keyboard layout, and any other layout you want to add. Just click on the little box that's to the left of the keyboard layout name, and it should get a tick and become blue, which means that it's active now. Close the System Preferences window and the next time you click on the little flag, the U.S.Extended layout will be included in the drop-down menu so that you can click on it to enable it. 6. If you can't locate the "U.S.Extended" layout in the International menu, that means that it probably wasn't installed. This is possible with non-English OSX. So then you can try and install it from your OSX install cd. If it's not on the cd either, or if that's too complicated, then you'd need to find an equivalent from the list of layouts you already have installed, or make a custom layout or download one. I'll write about that in point 8 below. 7. So, if you have the U.S.Extended layout, as I think any English OSX should have, switch to it now - all the keys will work as usual, while the shortcuts for the Pali letters are as follows (will work both in browser and in TextEdit, and other applications that supports Unicode input): - to get n. m. - you need to type: Option(Alt) + w. When you press these two buttons at the same time - you will get just the diacritic (the dot at the top), and then, you can press any other key that needs the diacritic (n, m). Once you press that key, the letter will automatically get combined with the diacritic. - to get t. d. n. l. m. - you need to type: Option(Alt) + x. When you press these two buttons at the same time - you will get just the diacritic (the dot at the bottom), and then, you can press any other key that needs the diacritic (t, d, n, l, m). - to get a- i- u- - you need to type: Option(Alt) + a. When you press these two buttons at the same time - you will get just the diacritic (the flat line on top), and then, you can press any other key that needs the diacritic (a,i,u). - to get ń - you need to type: Option(Alt) + n. When you press these two buttons at the same time - you will get just the diacritic (the wave line on top), and then, you can press any other key that needs the diacritic (n). - If you need any of these letters in capital, then first press the Option+diacritic button (like Option+w for the dot on top) to get the diacritic, and then press the Shift+letter key that needs the diacritic (like Shift+N) and you will get N.. 8. If you don't have U.S.Extended layout, then you'd need to find an equivalent among the layouts you have, or make a custom layout, or download one. If you can't be bothered with all that, let me know, and I'll email you one I made. All, you'd need to do is put it in the appropriate folder (see point 9 below) and then do the points 1 and 5. It's fairly easy making your layout - you can use these: - for OSX up to 10.3: http://wordherd.com/keyboards/ - for OSX 10.4 and newer: http://scripts.sil.org/CMS/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=ukelele 9. So, once you make the keyboard layout file, then just put it in your Keyboard Layouts folder, which is located: OSX -> System -> Library -> Keyboard Layouts. It's possible you'd be asked to enter administration password when you try to put the file there - that's normal because you are trying to change the system folder. Also, don't confuse the Library folder in your System folder with the Library folder outside the system - you need the System one. Next time I'll write about the same topic but for pc. Best wishes pt #106745 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? ptaus1 Hi Robin, > R: I have a neurological disorder that causes severe migraines, tinnitus, disequilibrium, and vertigo. I abandoned breath meditation immediately, years ago, as it triggered very bad attacks. By 2003, the condition was to the point I could not walk. I had spent a small fortune on medical diagnoses and treatments, but it only got worse. Since then, I have made gradual but considerable progress. pt: I might have the same thing, though not sure. All the symptoms seem to match, though for me migraines have more to do with a feeling of strong nausea/pressure than actual physical pain. It got really bad at one point when it was hard to even stand up, but over the years it dissipated, and now I get it for an hour or two a day or not at all. Anyway, I too noticed that it's affected by the breath-based meditation, though sometimes it gives negative, sometimes positive results, can't really figure it out. It's also affected by metta, as well as vigorous physical exercise/activity (which was surprising since the sickness usually just makes me want to lie down really badly). All this basically leads me to believe that it is a sort of a wind-disorder. I mean, western doctors couldn't find anything physically wrong with me, however, I heard from many people that they experience similar things, and some report that samatha does seem to make it more problematic/disappear. Apparently, for some people the problems clear out within days, for some it takes years. The problem is that western medicine doesn't really deal winds, so I guess you'd need to look into eastern medicine that deals with this sort of stuff - i.e. chinese or ayurveda. I suspect something like Tai Chi would also help as it combines physical exercise with manipulating winds. I see you have some contacts with Tibetan tradition - they might also know about this as ayurveda/tibetan medicine is a part of Tibetan Buddhism. Anyway, let me know if you find something, as I'd really like to know how this is explained precisely in eastern medical terms. Best wishes pt #106746 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:45 pm Subject: Evaporating Evil... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Instantly Evaporating all Evil Mental States! The Blessed Buddha once said: When, bhikkhus and friends, while one is trying to behave good & cleaver, if occasionally due to a lapse of awareness, a momentary neglect occurs & evil detrimental memories and bad intentions arise in one, slow might be the re-arising of one's awareness, but one should the ultra-quickly leave these thoughts, dispel these obsessions, and end these impulses, thereby eradicating both any phobia and mania. Imagine a man who let a tiny drop of water fall onto an iron plate heated for a whole day on the stove... Slow might be his letting go of the water drop, but then it would quickly vaporize and vanish when hitting the pan. Even so, while one is neglecting the presence of acute awareness & the mind strays back into the mental habits of evil detrimental memories and bad intentions, slow might be the re-arising of one's awareness, yet then one should instantly leave these thoughts, dispel these obsessions, end these impulses, thereby eradicating any disadvantageous and afflicting phobia and mania. It is in exactly this way that a bhikkhu has comprehended the ideal mode of behaviour & habit of living that prevents any evil detrimental mental state of avariciousness, lust, greed, envy, jealousy and discontent in flowing in upon, enveloping & completely dominating him... <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [190-] 35: 6 Senses. Salayatana. States that entail Suffering. Dukkha-Dhamma 244. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #106747 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg ashkenn2k Dear Azita Understanding Buddhism is not just nama and rupa because in the teachings there are samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana.? When both bhavana practitioners try to impose their views on the other, that is the cause of the many unnecessary debates and not the discussion of dhamma.? Nama and rupa is not the only way, to see that is the only way is not following the? Buddha's compassion because he knows the inclination of different humans. How much?do we understand samatha,? If it is by the way of nama and rupa, then it is not the correct view because the text and not my understanding, point clearly on samatha bhavana is not by nama and rupa before jhanas.?It mostly base on conceptual objects.? ? Nama and rupa is only for those who practise the vipassana bhavana.??????One should look?deeply into the text especially the opinons of the commentators and not my comments.???One should be clear on what is the development of satipatthana and not assume all forms of conceptual development?is wrong. My comments dont mean a thing because I could be wrong, but ancient masters comments should be deeply respected.? To try to interpret ancient masters teachings into just nama and rupa, is very unwise?because the ancient master speak of both ways to satipatthana?and not one.?? It is not about mixing oil and water, it is?not understanding the nature of both, that is the cause of mixing them up.? One assume oil should only be water.? In fact they have many similiarities and when one is to incline to one,?it become many dissimiliarities.? Kind regards Ken O #106748 From: Vince Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? cerovzt@... ptaus1 wrote: >> R: I have a neurological disorder that causes severe migraines, >> tinnitus, disequilibrium, and vertigo. > pt: I might have the same thing, though not sure. All the symptoms > seem to match, though for me migraines have more to do with a > feeling of strong nausea/pressure than actual physical pain. Have you consider the presence of electromagnetic devices around you, and specially when sleeping?. There is a growing amount of people with these symptoms, and many times it seems to be related. I have a close friend with same problems for years, adding a serious bones pain and a peregrination by many doctors. Across time it forced him to leave his job. He bought an electromagnetic detector and turned off damaged devices, mobile phones, microwaves and wireless, except when it was really needed. He started to practice a physical and very light-mind yoga, and was engaged in PNL to indague the possibility of some unknown conflict. Don't know the cause but now he is fully recovered and practicing yoga regularly. He can do meditation without problems when before the strong vertigoes impeded him. best, Vince. #106749 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sukinderpal Hi Ken, ====== >Sukin: Panna can arise at anytime, taking any reality as object when it has become strong enough. Do you mind explaining to me about how `methods' help particularly? KO: As a means and it can be a strong paccaya for development of panna. Visuds are full of them. S: I was actually asking you about the mechanism or ‘how’ methods are paccaya not that it was strong or not. In other words what kind of paccaya are you referring to? ====== >There are methods to how clothes are cut and stitched, and I can learn that. But for the arising of certain kinds of conditioned dhammas, how this can be achieved by following some method, this I have difficulty understanding. You may be right when limiting yourself to samatha development, I don't know. But when you say for example, `reciting' is condition for kusala to arise or panna to develop; I understand reciting to be either with kusala or akusala citta. You will say then that panna makes the distinction and thereby be encouraging more kusala. But this does not say anything about the value of recitation itself. Could it be that a person has developed the tendency to think over a particular theme with kusala citta and then with time such instances arose more often and hence recitation became just an offshoot of that….?? KO: one can recites with understanding. And there are instances of one who recite be it verbally then mentally becomes sotapanna. S: Again, I was asking to hear your understanding about how ‘recitation’ acts as condition. It is obvious that hearing the Dhamma expressed in a way that is suitable for the arising of Pariyatti understanding is crucial. In this regard, I can understand for example, Pariyatti understanding arising upon hearing and with considering the Dhamma. Are you saying then that recitation is like repeated ‘right consideration’ of the Dhamma? You will agree that the concepts thought about are meaningful only when there is any level of panna. So in the case of the Sotapanna above, it could be that the habit of repeating was part of the accumulations, more importantly however, developed panna was also very much there. So for him repeating each time, verbally and then mentally, chances are that panna arose very often and got stronger and stronger. But then wouldn’t this exactly reflect on panna as being the leader and repetition being some thing that was more or less peculiar to him? Ken, when hearing about people during the Buddha’s time attaining enlightenment while doing this or that or with this or that samatha object, it is natural to form a mental picture about what possibly was going on. However, I think it sign of some wrong thinking when we imagine that what they did could be simulated and repeated by someone else at a later time. In other words I believe it must be papanca of one kind or another; in fact in this case likely ditthi is the main influence. Also I suspect that how you arrive at the conclusion is basically no different from how the meditators, who you otherwise so often caution against ‘wrong practice’, arrive at theirs. ========== >I know that there were people who developed Jhana and they even approached teachers who then helped them with its development. But perhaps they didn't go there with the intention of seeking a method but just to listen to the teacher teach about the Dhamma or about other kinds of kusala, and that their ending up being given a meditation object was more or less by chance? Would a potential Jhanalabi be involved in thoughts about going to some particular teacher living somewhere, just so that he can then learn how to become more proficient in Jhana? The idea of some teacher waiting for students to come and be given a meditation object also sounds quite strange to me…. >\ >But you may be right Ken, and it could be that I'm just being unreasonable here….. > KO: It is not strange, how do you approach AS in the first place. That is also the same motivation by them. S: But I go there to discuss / learn, not to look for a method….!? Metta, Sukinder #106750 From: "Rob" Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? rrobinrb2000 Hi pt. I do not have a great deal to add, but a few thoughts and comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Robin, > > > R: I have a neurological disorder that causes severe migraines, tinnitus, disequilibrium, and vertigo. I abandoned breath meditation immediately, years ago, as it triggered very bad attacks. By 2003, the condition was to the point I could not walk. I had spent a small fortune on medical diagnoses and treatments, but it only got worse. Since then, I have made gradual but considerable progress. > > pt: I might have the same thing, though not sure. All the symptoms seem to match, though for me migraines have more to do with a feeling of strong nausea/pressure than actual physical pain. It got really bad at one point when it was hard to even stand up, but over the years it dissipated, and now I get it for an hour or two a day or not at all. I no longer get the migraine pain. I get the 'auras' and nausea, along with tinnitus and transient blindness. > > Anyway, I too noticed that it's affected by the breath-based meditation, though sometimes it gives negative, sometimes positive results, can't really figure it out. It's also affected by metta, as well as vigorous physical exercise/activity (which was surprising since the sickness usually just makes me want to lie down really badly). All this basically leads me to believe that it is a sort of a wind-disorder. That is interesting. Choppy breathing, hyperventilation, can cause symptoms. My wife hyperventilates. There is a certain breathing rhythm that feels pleasant and is helpful. If I can get there, the pleasant feeling goes up into my sinuses and forehead; kind of like a tactile light image, if that makes any kind of sense. One thing I have noticed is that my symptoms are triggered by disruptions in sensory fields -- sudden changes in visual perspective {sudden motion, looking up, strobe lights, spinning electric fans, reflective surfaces, glass elevators}, pungent odors like some chemicals or ammonia, cacophonous sounds, and certain kinds of coarse textures. My present Doctor is an Osteopath. He suspects either molecular damage to part of optic nerve, or vaso-constriction reducing blood flow to that nerve. He supports my self treatments. I had some atrial defib trouble, so I was sent for a stress test; which I passed with flying colors. The attending physician was impressed my posture and bearing. He asked if I was practicing some kind of yoga, mindfulness, or Islamic prayer. :) Basically, I use concentration to anticipate and avoid sensory field distortions before they happen. I also use some basic ashana postures and mudra gestures to center myself. Also, abdominal breathing; though sometimes this still causes trouble. Maintaining a kind and cheerful mental attitude helps too. Sadness and anger cause stress; which can cause vaso-constriction. Arousing compassion can also purge stresses from the body. In some way, the dis-ease is like a blessing. Learning how to walk again required developing a lot of concentration and patience. #106751 From: "connie" Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:20 pm Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (320, 21-23) nichiconn dear friends, following on from #106446 Fives (320, 20) (cy: #106528): CSCD < Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? nilovg Dear Robin, I admire your courage, and my sympathy with your sufferings. Nina. Op 12-apr-2010, om 15:07 heeft Rob het volgende geschreven: > Maintaining a kind and cheerful mental attitude helps too. Sadness > and anger cause stress; which can cause vaso-constriction. Arousing > compassion can also purge stresses from the body. > > In some way, the dis-ease is like a blessing. Learning how to walk > again required developing a lot of concentration and patience. #106753 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sukin >S: Again, I was asking to hear your understanding about how ‘recitation’ >acts as condition. It is obvious that hearing the Dhamma expressed in a >way that is suitable for the arising of Pariyatti understanding is >crucial. In this regard, I can understand for example, Pariyatti >understanding arising upon hearing and with considering the Dhamma. Are >you saying then that recitation is like repeated ‘right consideration’ >of the Dhamma? > KO: Pariyatti or intellectual understanding is still convetional. That does not mean the person who take up a recitation subject does not listen to dhamma. They do listen like you or me. They still require understand dhamma from their teachers or they will not clearly comprehen that dhamma is not self. So this is the similiarity between the two bhavanas. The thought that samatha bhavana is just simply meditation or recitation is not correct. If I will to explain, then it would using samatha bhavana and not vipassana bhavana. Recitation has a few purposes a. It places the mind on dhamma b. It breaks out the compactness of thinking there is self These conditions the mind towards the soulness, slowly eradication the mental proliferation of the ditthi arise with perversion of sanna. >You will agree that the concepts thought about are meaningful only when >there is any level of panna. So in the case of the Sotapanna above, it >could be that the habit of repeating was part of the accumulations, more >importantly however, developed panna was also very much there. So for >him repeating each time, verbally and then mentally, chances are that >panna arose very often and got stronger and stronger. But then wouldn’t >this exactly reflect on panna as being the leader and repetition being >some thing that was more or less peculiar to him? KO: In Visud, the person who recites is yet a sotapanna, he use it as a method to attain sotapanna. >Ken, when hearing about people during the Buddha’s time attaining >enlightenment while doing this or that or with this or that samatha >object, it is natural to form a mental picture about what possibly was >going on. However, I think it sign of some wrong thinking when we >imagine that what they did could be simulated and repeated by someone >else at a later time. In other words I believe it must be papanca of one >kind or another; in fact in this case likely ditthi is the main >influence. Also I suspect that how you arrive at the conclusion is >basically no different from how the meditators, who you otherwise so >often caution against ‘wrong practice’, arrive at theirs. >S: But I go there to discuss / learn, not to look for a method….!? KO: I dont disagree with that as I said ordinary people should not undertake a meditation subject. Many of them do not have a proper understanding of samatha bhavana They taught they just follow the ancient master forgetting the virtue, mindfulness and clear comprehension. But there is samatha bhavana without doubt and the method used. Natural is not the word, it should be suitability of object to the practitioner. Wrong practise only arise with wrong view of the practise but not the practise itself. We must be clear on this distinction. I dont arise the same conclusion with meditators because I know the difficulty in dong samatha bhavana after reading the texts over and over again. However, I have a certain understanding on the similiarities of both practise and their differences. So I dont impose vipassana on samatha, I want to help them to understand what is samatha as in the texts. I have no percularity or qualms about methods, practices or rules, actions because I know it is not these that cause the arising of mental proliferation, it is akusala dhamma that arise with it. Just like chanda, if there is no chanda will you go to listen to AS talk. The thinking that one should not wish is basing on inadequate understanding of the distinct functions of paramatha dhammas. If chanda dont arise, one will not be interest to listen or wish to learn. Why? because panna dont interest, dont will, dont strive. If these dhamma arise, then one will listen, one will make effort to go to listen due to one interest that arise with panna. But who make this effort or will or interest, it is dhamma and not a self. That should be the correct persepective of paramatha dhamma be it conventional or paramatha level and not keep thinking that any action or wishes or effort is deffinitely associated with a self. And if the paramatha level dhamma does not arise to perform is function, will one do it conventionally. cheers Kind regards Ken O #106754 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello ashkenn2k Dear Robin do you know how I could obtain materials of the translation of Thervada from Pali to Chinese.? I know the Chinese classified them as Hinayala and their sutta is different from the Thervada.? But I remember somewhere that there is an actual transalation of the whole Thervada??pali cannon into Chinese.? I like to get these materials especially the commentaries to the suttas and the Abhidhamma texts like Pathana and Yamaka.? As my understanding of pali is limited, Chinese will be of great help as I understand them. If you could point to me on?the site and how to?search for it.? I am most grateful.? ? thanks Ken O #106755 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:42 pm Subject: Re: Applying mind to seeing and hearing szmicio Dear Nina and all > But there can be more understanding of what seeing is, > since it arises now. It is different from thinking of persons and > things. It experiences only what is visible, nothing else. L: How to attend to the characteristic of seeing and hearing? Best wishes Lukas #106756 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Applying mind to seeing and hearing upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas (and Nina) - In a message dated 4/12/2010 11:42:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Nina and all > But there can be more understanding of what seeing is, > since it arises now. It is different from thinking of persons and > things. It experiences only what is visible, nothing else. L: How to attend to the characteristic of seeing and hearing? Best wishes Lukas ================================== My understanding of Khun Sujin's and Nina's perspective on this is as follows: Nothing is required to attend to seeing and hearing (and sights and sounds). Everyone experiences these. The difference for Buddhists is that they have heard or read of these phenomena being impersonal, uncontrollable, conditioned, fleeting, and dukkha, and this knowledge enables the seeing and hearing to serve as conditions for the arising of direct insight. Nina, please correct me if I misrepresent your understanding of this matter. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106757 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? ptaus1 Hi Robin and Vince, Thanks for your comments. > R: There is a certain breathing rhythm that feels pleasant and is helpful. If I can get there, the pleasant feeling goes up into my sinuses and forehead; kind of like a tactile light image, if that makes any kind of sense. pt: Yeah, I get that, I think that's the wind that corresponds with one of the central channels. I know very little about it. Some say that if there's too much wind drawn into the central channel, it can bring all sorts of problems, yet other say that's a good thing because it clears the "blocks". I have no idea what's really going on in there. > R: One thing I have noticed is that my symptoms are triggered by disruptions in sensory fields -- sudden changes in visual perspective {sudden motion, looking up, strobe lights, spinning electric fans, reflective surfaces, glass elevators}, pungent odors like some chemicals or ammonia, cacophonous sounds, and certain kinds of coarse textures. pt: Yeah, I had a strong version of the above for about a month, and then it just passed for some reason. In retrospect it was really funny in some moments. E.g. I used to sleep on a bunk-bed of sorts at the time, it was 2 meters above the floor. And basically even the slightest movement of my head would cause vertigo, so basically it would take me some 5 minutes to get off my bed cause I had to do it while trying not to move the head at all. It was kind of like the way sloths move. Anyway, good to hear things are getting better for you, too. Best wishes pt > Basically, I use concentration to anticipate and avoid sensory field distortions before they happen. I also use some basic ashana postures and mudra gestures to center myself. Also, abdominal breathing; though sometimes this still causes trouble. Maintaining a kind and cheerful mental attitude helps too. Sadness and anger cause stress; which can cause vaso-constriction. Arousing compassion can also purge stresses from the body. > > In some way, the dis-ease is like a blessing. Learning how to walk again required developing a lot of concentration and patience. > ukkat.t.ha-yam. #106758 From: "nori" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations norakat147 Dear Ken O., Nina, Sarah, Vince, Thank you for all your comments (and links). And Thank you Nina for the Chanting link. Warm Regards, Nori #106759 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:00 am Subject: Bad behaviour Worsens prior Evil! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Present evil action aggravates the effects of prior evil action! The Blessed Buddha once explained: Regarding the effects of actions, Ananda, as to the person here who kills living beings, who takes what is not given, who abuses in sex, who speaks false, who speaks divisively, who speaks aggressively, who speaks idle and empty gossip, who is envious and jealous, who is of ill will, and who holds wrong views and who at the breakup of the body, right after death, thus is reborn in a state of deprivation, a dreadful destination, in the painful purgatory, in one of the hells: Either earlier - prior to this - such one also did evil actions to be felt as painful, or later - after this - such one also did evil actions to be felt as pain, or right at the death-moment such fool entered and maintained wrong views! Because of one or more of these ills, then right after the death moment, such one is reborn in a distressing state of deprivation, a dreadful destination, in the painful purgatory, in one of the hells. And since such one furthermore has here also now in the present killed living beings, taken what is not given, misconducted himself in sensual pleasures, spoken false, spoken divisively, spoken aggressively, and spoken empty and idle gossip, and since such one also now is envious and jealous, and since such one also now is of ill will, and since such one and now holds wrong views, such one will experience the result of that either here & now, or the next rebirth, or in some subsequent coming into being... <...> ONE'S OWN ENEMY The worst enemy of the simple fool, is himself! This his self commit the doings from which he himself reaps the later result of bitter pain... Dhammapada Illustration 66 Background Story 66 BITTER FRUIT That action, which one later regrets, is not good... Experiencing the result of such ill and evil deed, one later weeps with a tearful face. Dhammapada Illustration 67 Background Story 67 CAUSE, DELAY, EFFECT Initially, the taste of the evil deed appears as sweet honey to the fool. Later, however, when the evil result ripens, he grieves in pain. Dhammapada Illustration 69 Background Story 69 SMOULDERING SMUDGE Just as fresh milk do not sour just at once, then the evil action does not ripen immediately. Rather it burns the fool after a long smouldering, like embers covered with ashes. Dhammapada Illustration 71 Background Story 71 ABUSE Whatever power, fame or skill the evil fool acquires, abused, it destroys his future, as if cleaving his head. Dhammapada Illustration 72 Background Story 72 ULTIMATE WRONG All sentient beings feel pain from violence... All sentient beings fear death in panic! Seeing other beings are like oneself; Treating other beings like oneself; One should never ever harm or kill ... Dhammapada Illustration 129 Background Story 129 LOSS Whoever injures, with weapon or stick, beings searching for their happiness - when after death - seeking some happiness, such fool never finds it! Dhammapada Illustration 131 Background Story 131+132 BOOMERANG Do not ever speak harsh or angry words. Such is always retaliated with angry talk. Painful indeed is arrogant speech... The inevitable retaliation invariably falls back on such proud boaster. Dhammapada Illustration 133 Background Story 133+134 BURNT When doing evil the fool does not recognize the bad as wrong. Afterwards such simpleton is burnt, as with a fire lit by himself. Dhammapada Illustration 136 Background Story 136 10 CONSEQUENCES OF ILL ACTION Whoever is violent against the harmless; Whoever offends the innocent; Such fool quite quickly experiences one of these 10 states: The fool may suffer acute pain, disaster, injures of body, severe sickness, insanity, lawsuits from police, accusations, loss of wealth, fire burns his house and right after death, he re-arise in the painful worlds or the niraya hells ... Dhammapada Illustration 137-140 Background Story 137-140 Source: The Moderate speeches of the Buddha: The great speech on Action. MN 136 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X Full Text http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn136.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <.....> #106760 From: "Rob" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello rrobinrb2000 Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > Dear Robin > KO> do you know how I could obtain materials of the translation of Thervada from Pali to Chinese.? I know the Chinese classified them as Hinayala and their sutta is different from the Thervada.? But I remember somewhere that there is an actual transalation of the whole Thervada??pali cannon into Chinese.? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ robin: I think that would be what the Chinese called the Agamas. From what I recall, the Agamas were translated from Sanskrit to Chinese. The texts, afaik, are similar to the Pali Canon; but not identical. Wiki is wiki, but this article is helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80gama_%28Buddhism%29 KO >I like to get these materials especially the commentaries to the suttas and the Abhidhamma texts like Pathana and Yamaka.? As my understanding of pali is limited, Chinese will be of great help as I understand them. > > If you could point to me on?the site and how to?search for it.? I am most grateful.? ? > > > thanks > Ken O I am not very good with Chinese at all. I think the Chinese version of the Agamas might be on line somewhere; but I lost most the links that I had. Someone like Reverend Eijo of Mt Koya, if you e-run :)M into him, could direct you more effectively. That said, if you can read Chinese this next link might help. I do not if they would have those texts. I was using it to look at some Mahayana material a while back. CBETA: Chinese Buddhist Electronic Text Association http://www.cbeta.org/index.htm http://www.cbeta.org/ This next site matches Kanji {the Japanese version of Chinese} with terms in other languages, and also has other good material for scholars. They limit guest inquiries to ten per day. You can sign in there as guest. Digital Dictionary of Buddhism http://www.buddhism-dict.net/ddb/ Fodian may or not be helpful: http://yzzj.fodian.net/World/index.html Also http://taipei.ddbc.edu.tw/index.php http://taipei.ddbc.edu.tw/zhengshi.php robin #106761 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello nilovg Dear Ken O, People of the Pali list will help you. You are a member, so you could ask. Several Chinese speaking people are on this list, including the moderator Yong Peng. See also the home page http://www.tipitaka.net Nina. Op 12-apr-2010, om 16:53 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > do you know how I could obtain materials of the translation of > Thervada from Pali to Chinese. #106762 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:13 am Subject: Re: Applying mind to seeing and hearing kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > L: How to attend to the characteristic of seeing and hearing? > > ================================== > My understanding of Khun Sujin's and Nina's perspective on this is as > follows: Nothing is required to attend to seeing and hearing (and sights > and sounds). Everyone experiences these. The difference for Buddhists is that > they have heard or read of these phenomena being impersonal, > uncontrollable, conditioned, fleeting, and dukkha, and this knowledge enables the seeing > and hearing to serve as conditions for the arising of direct insight. > Nina, please correct me if I misrepresent your understanding of this matter. Hi Howard, Lucas and Nina, I think Nina will have to give you top marks for that, Howard. Looking closely for something to find fault with :-) I think Lucas's question contains a hint of wrong view. The Dhamma is not a "how to" manual. It is an explanation of how the characteristic of (in this instance) seeing and hearing is attended to. It is not a set of instructions for doing so. Ken H #106763 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Robin, Jessica & Chew > KO> do you know how I could obtain materials of the translation of Thervada from Pali to Chinese.? I know the Chinese classified them as Hinayala and their sutta is different from the Thervada.? But I remember somewhere that there is an actual transalation of the whole Thervada??pali cannon into Chinese.? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > robin: I think that would be what the Chinese called the Agamas. From what I recall, the Agamas were translated from Sanskrit to Chinese. ... S: The (Theravada) suttas and commentaries have not been translated into Chinese. I've discussed this with Ven Bodhi, Jessica and friends here. Jessica has been translating some of the MN into Chinese, but relying on BB's English translation and talks. She has read the Chinese texts, but the Pali canon is very different. ... > KO >I like to get these materials especially the commentaries to the suttas and the Abhidhamma texts like Pathana and Yamaka.? As my understanding of pali is limited, Chinese will be of great help as I understand them. ... S: I think the best assistance might be the Chinese translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. I think you have this? If not, we did have a translation you could have. If we no longer have it, Chew can help with this, I think. I'm pretty sure it has been translated from BB's English translation. Chew will also know if anything else is being translated into Chinese in Malaysia. Metta Sarah ======= #106764 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Applying mind to seeing and hearing sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Sat, 10/4/10, Lukas wrote: >Can you explain more on seeing. How to apply to seeing? How to be present in life? <..> >P.s Sarah pls give your advise also. How to apply to seeing and hearing? Because if we dont, there is only madness of thinking again and again. ... S: I think that all these "How to" questions, including "How to have less dosa" are on the wrong track. They all seem to suggest something should be done, something *we* can do, attachment for results. The Buddha taught us about conditioned dhammas. After hearing and considering what these dhammas are in our life now, understanding will grow. What are the cittas now when there is concern about "How to"? These can be known at this moment, but not by any special attending, focussing or doing. Just understanding with detachment. The trying to apply, trying to control dhammas in anyway is the greatest madness. Metta Sarah ======= #106765 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (& Scott), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Scott: I'll leave the Meditators out of it. Your claim that the 'vipassana camp' doesn't understand that the paramattha dhamma arises 'with action and concepts' is incorrect. Make this claim directly to Jon or Sarah and see what is said in reply. ... S: Yes Ken O, "show me the posts", in particular "show me the quotes" instead of the wild paraphrases which completely misunderstand what we've all been trying to say to you at length:-). As for samatha and samatha bhavana, if there is no understanding now of what samatha is, how can it ever possibly develop? So what is samatha? Is there samatha now? Metta Sarah ===== #106766 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello nilovg Dear Ken O, You gave this to me (from Chew) and I sent it to the Pali list. Nina. Op 13-apr-2010, om 13:25 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > I think the best assistance might be the Chinese translation of the > Abhidhammattha Sangaha. #106767 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Applying mind to seeing and hearing nilovg Hi Howard and Lukas, Op 12-apr-2010, om 18:08 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > My understanding of Khun Sujin's and Nina's perspective on this is as > follows: Nothing is required to attend to seeing and hearing (and > sights > and sounds). Everyone experiences these. The difference for > Buddhists is that > they have heard or read of these phenomena being impersonal, > uncontrollable, conditioned, fleeting, and dukkha, and this > knowledge enables the seeing > and hearing to serve as conditions for the arising of direct insight. > Nina, please correct me if I misrepresent your understanding of > this matter. ----------- N: Thank you Howard, for your contribution. True, one has heard of these phenomena and considered them, and this is in itself a condition for having more intellectual understanding of them, on the level of pariyatti. What I could add: we need to hear more what seeing is: it is not thinking of shape and form. Seeing merely sees what is visible. Visible object is that which is seen, different from seeing. We discussed with Kh Sujin many times what seeing exactly is, what hearing is. It is not what we always assumed it was. We always thought of a long moment of seeing, and assumed that we saw people and things. I think we have to hear about the specific characteristics of dhammas again and again before there is more understanding of the three general characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. We also have to remember that nobody can cause the arising of seeing, hearing, etc. It will take long before there can be direct insight. Lukas asked: 'How to attend to the characteristic of seeing and hearing?' Ken H and Sarah answered that there is no 'how to'... I think Lukas understands this. He said: how.. because he likes to hear reminders, that is all. We all need them. It is so interesting that Kh Sujin will always explain about seeing now, as I mentioned before, whenever we come to her with a specific problem in life. On a Thai recording Kh Sujin read the Cunda sutta (K. V, 161) . Ananda was so sad that Saariputta had passed away. The Buddha explained that dying is so normal, so common. All that is dear has the nature of diversity, separation. Then he exhorted to satipa.t.thaana, contemplating the body in the body, etc. That is the way to take refuge 'in oneself', to take refuge in the Dhamma. ----- Nina. #106768 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:44 pm Subject: Abhidhamma Series, no 8. Rootless Cittas. nilovg > > Dear friends, > > Abhidhamma Series no 8: Rootless cittas. > > Each citta experiences an object. There is not only one type of > citta, but there is a great diversity of cittas that experience > objects. If we want to know ourselves we should not merely know the > moments of akusala cittas or kusala cittas but other moments as well. > > Kusala cittas and akusala cittas are cittas that are cause, they > can motivate good or evil deeds, and these deeds can produce their > appropriate results later on. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas are > accompanied by cetasikas that are roots, hetus. As we have seen, > three of these hetus are akusala; they are: lobha (attachment), > dosa (aversion) and moha (ignorance). Three hetus are sobhana > (beautiful); they are: alobha (greedlessness or generosity), adosa > (non-hate or loving kindness) and amoha (pa??? or wisdom). The > citta or cetasika which is accompanied by a hetu is sahetuka > (``sa'' means ``with''). For example, dosa-m?la-citta, citta rooted > in dosa, is sahetuka; moha and dosa are the hetus which arise with > dosa-m?la-citta. > There are also cittas that are rootless, ahetuka. There are many > ahetuka cittas arising in a day. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting > and the experience of tangible object through the bodysense are > ahetuka vipaakacittas. Nobody can cause the arising of seeing, > hearing or the other sense-cognitions; they are the results of > kamma, a deed performed in the past. An evil deed produces akusala > vipaakacitta and a good deed produces kusala vipaakacitta. Seeing > that is akusala vipaakacitta experiences an unpleasant object and > seeing that is kusala vipaakacitta experiences a pleasant object. > There are two kinds of ahetuka vip?kacitta experiencing an object > through each of the five sense-doors: one is akusala vip?ka and one > is kusala vip?ka. Thus, there are five pairs of ahetuka > vip?kacittas which arise depending on the five sense-doors. These > five pairs are called in Pali: dvi-pa~nca-vi~n~naa.na (two times > five vi~n~naa.na). > > When a pleasant or an unpleasant object impinges on the eyesense, > seeing-consciousness only experiences what appears through the > eyes, there is no like or dislike yet of the object. Seeing- > consciousness is an ahetuka vip?kacitta. Cittas which like or > dislike the object arise later on; these are sahetuka cittas > (arising with hetus). Seeing is not the same as thinking of what is > seen. When one uses the word ``seeing'' one usually means: paying > attention to the shape and form of something and knowing what it > is, such as a person or a thing. However, there must also be a kind > of citta which merely sees visible object, and this citta does not > know anything else. What is seen we can call ``visible object'' or > ``colour''; what is meant is: what appears through the eyes. > Whenever we see, hear, smell, taste or experience tangible object > through the bodysense, there are ahetuka vipaakacittas before > akusala cittas or kusala cittas arise. The citta which dislikes the > object may arise afterwards. This citta is ``sahetuka'', with hetus > (roots); it is akusala citta rooted in dosa, aversion, and it is > accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Or the citta which likes the > object may arise; this citta is also ``sahetuka'', rooted in lobha, > attachment, and it may be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by > indifferent feeling. We are inclined to think that the dvi-pa~nca- > vi~n~naa.na, such as seeing or hearing, can occur at the same time > as like or dislike of the object, but this is not so. Different > cittas arise at different moments and the feelings which accompany > the cittas are different too; these realities arise each because of > their own conditions and they are non-self. > > ****** > Nina. > > > #106769 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello chewsadhu Dear Ken O, For Theravada Buddhism Tipitaka in Chinese (??????????? - ???????°?) http://sss2002.51.net/index2.htm or http://sss2002.51.net/index7.htm May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ken O, > You gave this to me (from Chew) and I sent it to the Pali list. > Nina. > Op 13-apr-2010, om 13:25 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > > > I think the best assistance might be the Chinese translation of the > > Abhidhammattha Sangaha. > > #106770 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Applying mind to seeing and hearing upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lukas & Ken) - In a message dated 4/13/2010 9:43:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Lukas, Op 12-apr-2010, om 18:08 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > My understanding of Khun Sujin's and Nina's perspective on this is as > follows: Nothing is required to attend to seeing and hearing (and > sights > and sounds). Everyone experiences these. The difference for > Buddhists is that > they have heard or read of these phenomena being impersonal, > uncontrollable, conditioned, fleeting, and dukkha, and this > knowledge enables the seeing > and hearing to serve as conditions for the arising of direct insight. > Nina, please correct me if I misrepresent your understanding of > this matter. ----------- N: Thank you Howard, for your contribution. True, one has heard of these phenomena and considered them, and this is in itself a condition for having more intellectual understanding of them, on the level of pariyatti. What I could add: we need to hear more what seeing is: it is not thinking of shape and form. Seeing merely sees what is visible. Visible object is that which is seen, different from seeing. ------------------------------------------------ Yes, I agree. Seeing is different from what is seen, and what is seen is visible object (or sight) and not what sa~n~na and further processing carves out (such as "a tree" or "a car" etc). All such distinctions can become clear by careful examination, and such clarity is supported by reading/hearing this stated. ---------------------------------------------- We discussed with Kh Sujin many times what seeing exactly is, what hearing is. It is not what we always assumed it was. We always thought of a long moment of seeing, and assumed that we saw people and things. I think we have to hear about the specific characteristics of dhammas again and again before there is more understanding of the three general characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. We also have to remember that nobody can cause the arising of seeing, hearing, etc. It will take long before there can be direct insight. Lukas asked: 'How to attend to the characteristic of seeing and hearing?' Ken H and Sarah answered that there is no 'how to'... I think Lukas understands this. He said: how.. because he likes to hear reminders, that is all. We all need them. It is so interesting that Kh Sujin will always explain about seeing now, as I mentioned before, whenever we come to her with a specific problem in life. On a Thai recording Kh Sujin read the Cunda sutta (K. V, 161) . Ananda was so sad that Saariputta had passed away. The Buddha explained that dying is so normal, so common. All that is dear has the nature of diversity, separation. Then he exhorted to satipa.t.thaana, contemplating the body in the body, etc. That is the way to take refuge 'in oneself', to take refuge in the Dhamma. ----- Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard P. S. As you know, I believe, as the signature quote at the end of this post suggests, that much more than hearing-reading-contemplating Dhamma is needed and has been urged by the Buddha, but that does not mean that I don't agree with the essential importance, in fact the indispensable need, of pariyatti. I do strongly believe in it. Path to Full Awakening /Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose and reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose and reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose and reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose and reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose and reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose and reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose and reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose and reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose and reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose and reward./ (From the Kimattha Sutta) #106771 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:11 pm Subject: After maggaphala truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, As I understand it, the stream-enterer (or sakadagamin, or anagamin, or Arhat) exists as a maggaphala moment. Questions: 1) What happens after maggaphala moment? Lets say sotopanna magga/phala was reached. When that has happened, maggaphala arose and *ceased*, does the person reverts to a "normal" person? 2) How would a person be classified after, lets say, sotopanna magga/phala moment? 3) If wrong views (and any other bad tendencies, impulses, etc) of the mind is the result of interaction of internal mind base and external mental objects*, then what prevents an awakened person from experiencing those elements (which s/he has got rid of due to maggaphala)? manayatana + dhammayatana or manodhatu + dhammadhatu -> manovinnana dhatu ================================================================== With metta, Alex #106772 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Applying mind to seeing and hearing ashkenn2k Dear Lukas A few ways to investigate seeing a.??? By Function - Seeing Citta sees b.??? By object - seeing only see?colour, if you see shapes, distance, being, inanimate objects, that is thinking c.??? By feeling - seeing only?arise with?indffierence ?feeling, if you have pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling that is not seeling.? d??? By what is not -? seeing dont hear, seeing dont crave,? Seeing dont have an I because it is not the function of seeing to have an I,?seeing just see, I is the function of miccha ditthi. Craving, miccha?dttihi arise only in the javana process of seeing sense process?and not at the seeing citta. e.??? By investigating what is seeing - how does?seeing arise, a visible object, a base, and conditioned by kamma etc.?? Not all are standard dinosaurs answer though, as long as it helps you to understand dhamma and not?concepts, that is the gist of satipatthana.? To me?, one cannot?stop?the function of?seeing and one cannot control the function of citta?in thinking of objects like concepts.??But one can understand the nature of?dhamma?when it arise.? So whatever your?inclination?to understand dhamma whether by function,?object, feeling etc that is?will be up to your inclinations, which is what is the most obvious?and suits?the way you think.? Your how to attend is condition by?dhamma which is the?panna arise with chanda.?? But there is no you, it is just dhamma at work.?? Cheers Ken O #106773 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello ashkenn2k Dear Chew dont have commentaries, do you have one that have commentaries thank you Ken O #106774 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] After maggaphala upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Nina) - In a message dated 4/13/2010 12:14:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Nina, all, As I understand it, the stream-enterer (or sakadagamin, or anagamin, or Arhat) exists as a maggaphala moment. Questions: 1) What happens after maggaphala moment? Lets say sotopanna magga/phala was reached. When that has happened, maggaphala arose and *ceased*, does the person reverts to a "normal" person? 2) How would a person be classified after, lets say, sotopanna magga/phala moment? 3) If wrong views (and any other bad tendencies, impulses, etc) of the mind is the result of interaction of internal mind base and external mental objects*, then what prevents an awakened person from experiencing those elements (which s/he has got rid of due to maggaphala)? -------------------------------------------------- As I understand it, a stream entrant will never have any of the first three fetters expressed, for those requisite defiling roots have been uprooted. In MN 22, the Buddha teaches "And how is a monk one whose bolt is withdrawn? There is the case where a monk's five lower fetters are abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. This is how a monk is one whose bolt is withdrawn." I presume that similarly there is no back-tracking from stream entry either. The assertion that once one becomes a stream entrant there will no longer be rebirth in the lower realms and at most 7 births to come in this realm and heaven realms would suggest such lack of return to the state of putthujana from the state of sotapana. ------------------------------------------------------ manayatana + dhammayatana or manodhatu + dhammadhatu -> manovinnana dhatu With metta, Alex ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106775 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:31 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Sarah, Jon and all, just jumping in for a bit of conclusion from my point of view .. you wrote: So what is samatha? Is there samatha now? D: when we are calm , peace of mind, volition rests and nothing is between the world /the all of our senses, there is a state of consciousness called samatha, tranquillity . That is when the monkey (mind) takes a break ..and at this moment (Citta) either investigation into details of all ( 6 senses/Dhammas) is possible or leaving that all behind step by step (absorbtion ) , i.e. the way of Sati or Jhana , corresponding to the 7th and 8th step of the Noble Path. It is confusing when Vipassana is reserved for Sati Patthana and Samatha for Samma Samadhi , in fact insight is the purpose of both and tranquillity with its major absence of the 6 hindrances assumption to be aware respectively able to focus ( one-pointedness of the mind) Everybody may remember states of samatha , which sometimes happen e.g . after having finished a task done which much effort , allowing to let go, or conditions may be right while realizing day dreaming .... for example the brief moments after a good sleep and getting up .. ( not to talk of an occasion similar to when the Prince was sitting under the shadow of the Rose Apple Tree watching his father working.. ) The training of the samadhi sequence of the Noble Path aims that we are able to develop these states of consciousness at will and do not have to rely on chances.. with Metta Dieter #106776 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:42 pm Subject: Re: Applying mind to seeing and hearing szmicio Dear Ken 0, Niw I remember AS's 'citta now. it experience now' and her 'There is something or nothing now?!'. Thanks Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Lukas > > A few ways to investigate seeing > > a.??? By Function - Seeing Citta sees > > b.??? By object - seeing only see?colour, if you see shapes, distance, being, inanimate objects, that is thinking > > c.??? By feeling - seeing only?arise with?indffierence ?feeling, if you have pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling that is not seeling.? > > d??? By what is not -? seeing dont hear, seeing dont crave,? Seeing dont have an I because it is not the function of seeing to have an I,?seeing just see, I is the function of miccha ditthi. Craving, miccha?dttihi arise only in the javana process of seeing sense process?and not at the seeing citta. > > e.??? By investigating what is seeing - how does?seeing arise, a visible object, a base, and conditioned by kamma etc.?? > > > Not all are standard dinosaurs answer though, as long as it helps you to understand dhamma and not?concepts, that is the gist of satipatthana.? To me?, one cannot?stop?the function of?seeing and one cannot control the function of citta?in thinking of objects like concepts.??But one can understand the nature of?dhamma?when it arise.? So whatever your?inclination?to understand dhamma whether by function,?object, feeling etc that is?will be up to your inclinations, which is what is the most obvious?and suits?the way you think.? > > Your how to attend is condition by?dhamma which is the?panna arise with chanda.?? But there is no you, it is just dhamma at work.?? > > > > Cheers > Ken O > > > #106777 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anger. How to stop. szmicio Dear Ken O, > I did not know Lukas can be angry, I thought only dosa can be angry.? L: But there is also Lukas arising in anger moments. No panna, ditthi. I cannot run away from this kind of ignorance. I feel like me, I , I consider myself there is Lukas now who is experiencing anger. ignorance. Maybe I shall read Vibhanga, The analysis of 4 Noble Truths. I forget 4NT. Best wishes Lukas #106778 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Sarah & Jon) - In a message dated 4/13/2010 1:33:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: D: when we are calm , peace of mind, volition rests and nothing is between the world /the all of our senses, there is a state of consciousness called samatha, tranquillity . That is when the monkey (mind) takes a break ..and at this moment (Citta) either investigation into details of all ( 6 senses/Dhammas) is possible or leaving that all behind step by step (absorbtion ) , i.e. the way of Sati or Jhana , corresponding to the 7th and 8th step of the Noble Path. =============================== Dieter, I rarely write "sadhu" messages, but I consider what I quoted above of yours to be simply beautiful, simply lovely! :-) With metta, Howard State of Peace //Volition rests and nothing is between ... // (D. Moeller) #106779 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:13 pm Subject: DO in Aruppa planes truth_aerator Dear All, What happens in Aruppa planes? How does DO function there (especially the namarupa link)? With metta, Alex #106780 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Applying mind to seeing and hearing ashkenn2k Dear Lukas >? >Dear Ken 0, >Niw I remember AS's 'citta now. it experience now' and her 'There is something or nothing now?!'. KO:? Great??as long as it helps you to understand dhamma.? AS is a great teacher of now.? Let me explain about something. What is something, it is the dhamma that is something be it cetasikas or cittas and not concepts.?? Could one experience something without a citta, without cetasikas, so experience now, is experience the dhamma that arise with the object be it concepts or dhamma.?? So satipatthana is experience now on the dhammas be it the objects is concept or not.? So when you said you are sad or angry, what is the something you are experiencing.? When you are said you heard the news of the Poland's President death, you are sad.? Your state mind of yours?is?just thinking of a being, you are not mindful of the dosa cetasikas that arise with the mental object which is a being.???If one cannot be mindful of seeing, hearing etc, then one should be mindful of the other dhammas.? It is why the Abhidhamma text has classified dhammas into different citta, cetasikas,?feelings, objects etc is to, or what is seeing and what is not seeing, it is to?help to understand the characteristics of dhamma.? Nothing is not for one to experience now because it is bhavanga cittas.? Not in our range of panna,?not important now.? If we cant even understand the dhamma now, what is the point of understanding the nothing now.? All I tell you in the earlier email is about now.????I just giving you the options of how to understand the different ways of understanding seeing now?because different people has different inclinations to dhamma.? Even investigation of seeing is also now, it cannot be later as experience of object is always now, even those who are imagining something, they are experience the?imagining now.? Even if one recollect the past, the experience of recollecting is also now.? what is the difference then :-) Cheers Ken O #106781 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anger. How to stop. ashkenn2k Dear Lukas No one can run away from dhammas.? To consider to read more dhamma that is great.?? I encourage you to read more of the text.? It is of great help. Also Lukas as a ?being?can arise in anger moments as a citta can take a concept.? But Lukas as I cannot arise in anger moments because it is the fixed rule of dhamma that miccha ditthi cannot arise in dosa mula cittas.??To understand?what is and what is not,? one could know dhamma better. Cheer Ken O > >? >Dear Ken O, > >> I did not know Lukas can be angry, I thought only dosa can be angry.? > >L: But there is also Lukas arising in anger moments. No panna, ditthi. I cannot run away from this kind of ignorance. I feel like me, I , I consider myself there is Lukas now who is experiencing anger. ignorance. >Maybe I shall read Vibhanga, The analysis of 4 Noble Truths. I forget 4NT. > >Best wishes >Lukas > #106782 From: "Rob" Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:21 am Subject: Re: DO in Aruppa planes rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear All, > > > What happens in Aruppa planes? How does DO function there (especially the namarupa link)? > > > With metta, > > Alex > That is an interesting question. I have heard there is neither form nor sensory contact. Abstract concepts have no form, nor sensory contact. What is metta / kindness? Even a child or even a dog can recognize kindness in certain kinds of subtle body language; gestures, postures, and facial expressions, or a 'look; in the eyes. However, it is hard to ascertain exact material characteristics, perceivable by the sense doors, of kindness. Neuroscience associates it with activity in the empathy centers of the brain. I do not understand namarupa; I am not even sure what it means. Name and form? I have only come it across this concept in passing, in past discussions. ddb has nama as: "Terms, words; concepts, non-physical phenomena. As contrasted with the dharmas contained in the category of form, refers to those existences categorized under feeling {vedana}, perception {sanna}, impulse {sankhara} and consciousness {vinnana}. The name of something. Considered by the Sarvastivadins to be one of the factors not concomitant with mind." The Chinese translation means same, noun, place, or famous. I would speculate that in the arupa levels, there might be nama, but no rupa? Many people have trouble thinking purely in the abstract. They want a picture, an image. As sighted humans, we tend to think in terms of visual imagery; what things look like; color, shape, size, and so on. Someone asked about Imagination. That word contains 'image.' Do the realms of rupa {form but no sensory contact} and arupa exist only in the imaginations of individuals? Do we share them because of a common way our brains are hard wired? Patterns programmed in DNA? food for thought robin #106783 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Howard, Dieter and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Dieter (and Sarah & Jon) - > > In a message dated 4/13/2010 1:33:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > moellerdieter@... writes: > > D: when we are calm , peace of mind, volition rests and nothing is > between the world /the all of our senses, there is a state of consciousness > called samatha, tranquillity . > That is when the monkey (mind) takes a break ..and at this moment (Citta) > either investigation into details of all ( 6 senses/Dhammas) is possible > or > leaving that all behind step by step (absorbtion ) , i.e. the way of Sati > or Jhana , corresponding to the 7th and 8th step of the Noble Path. > =============================== > Dieter, I rarely write "sadhu" messages, but I consider what I quoted > above of yours to be simply beautiful, simply lovely! :-) > > ----------------------------------------- KH: It may sound beautiful, but it goes against everything I understand about the Dhamma. Somewhere (sorry, no reference) the texts speak about the decline of the Buddha's sasana, and they predict a time when the words of poets will be given preference over the words of the Buddha. With all due respect to Dieter, and Howard, to meditation teachers in general, and to the self-help industry in general, I must say that the above language is just typical smoke-and-mirrors. It sounds impressive, but let's not mistake the sound for the meaning. What does "volition rests" mean? What does "nothing is between the world of the senses" mean? Are these things explained in the Tipitaka? The term "stopping the monkey mind" is commonly used by meditation teachers to give credence to what is otherwise just high-sounding rhetoric. They imply they are quoting from a sutta, but (as has been carefully explained to Dieter) that sutta is about the brevity of citta, and how it takes just one object at a time. The sutta has nothing to do with sitting quietly and somehow slowing the citta process (monkey) down. Most people don't want to know that. They choose the smoke-and-mirrors language of poets in preference to the Dhamma. That's their choice and they are entitled to it, but, boy, are they missing out on something! Ken H #106784 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:56 pm Subject: Yes We Can! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Any Advantageous Mental State Improves Future! Train yourself in doing good that lasts and brings happiness. Cultivate generosity, the life of peace, and a mind of boundless love. Itivuttaka 16 Generosity, kind words, doing a good turn for others, and treating all people alike: these bonds of sympathy are to the world what the axle is to the wagon wheel. Anguttara Nikaya II, 32 Good are friends, when the need arises; Good is contentment with just what one has; Good is merit done, when life is at an end, and good is the elimination of all Suffering! Dhammapada 331 Come on! Do Good! Good Gets Better! In this world, good it is to serve one's mother, Good is it to serve one's father, Good is it to serve the monks, and Good it is to serve the holy pure ones. Dhammapada 332 Good is pure moral virtue until life's end, Good is fine Faith , that is unwavering, Good is the acquisition of understanding, and Good is the avoidance of all evil wrong-doing. Dhammapada 333 To avoid all evil, to cultivate only good, and to purify one's mind this is the teaching of all the Buddhas! Dhammapada 183 Yes We Can! The good relinquish attachment to everything. The wise do not prattle with yearning for pleasures. The clever show neither elation, nor depression, when touched either by happiness, or by sorrow... Dhammapada 83 With good-will for the entire cosmos, Cultivate a limitless & infinite kindness: Above, below, across and all around, unobstructed, without hostility or hate. Sutta Nipata I, 8 Let all guard themselves against irritability in thought; Let every one be controlled in mind, Leaving mental misery & misconduct, Let every one practice good behaviour in any thought. Dhammapada 233 Seeding Good, Sprouts in Good! Let any being guard himself against irritability in speech; Let every one be controlled in speech. Leaving all verbal misconduct, Let every one practice good behaviour in all speech. Dhammapada 232 Overcome the angry by kindness; Overcome the wicked by goodness; Overcome the miser by generosity; Overcome the liar by truth. Dhammapada 223 Consort only with the good, Come together only with the good. To learn the Teaching of the Noble ones, Gives an understanding nowhere else found! Samyutta Nikaya I, 17 Same are all Being! Just Different. Neither mother, nor father, nor any other family or friend can do greater good for oneself, than a well trained & well directed mind! Dhammapada 43 Think not lightly of good, saying, "It will not return to me." Since: Drop by drop is the water pot filled with rain! Likewise, the wise one, gathering it little by little, fills himself with advantageous good... Dhammapada 122 Doing Good => Better Future! <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #106785 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:18 am Subject: Re: kusala for kusala sake sarahprocter... Dear Azita (& Lukas), > >A: was listening to a recorded discussion re kusala actions. That particular conversation was about doing kusala for one's own benefit, or for someone else's benefit, the third was doing kusala for the sake of the dhamma. > > > > my query is how would the third and IMO, the purest kind, manifest itself. ... S: I thought Lukas gave a very good answer below: when it's the right understanding of realities, there is a greater appreciation of kusala as kusala and it's far purer - not for the sake of any 'benefits'. ... > L: The third one is not for anyone, this is forgeting persons and things. This is kusala development only for the sake of understanding. No persons and things. We think a lot of me, benefits for me, and other people, benefits for them. But when we forget this, then this is practicing kusala for the sake of the dhamma. > > This is development of kusala by right understanding. > > you dont need to practicing for yourself, or practice for other people. Just do it for the sake of the dhamma. No concepts than. ... S: Very nicely put, Lukas. Metta Sarah ======== #106786 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta sarahprocter... Dear pt, > --- On Tue, 16/2/10, ptaus1 wrote: > In Kathavatthu, sections XIII.3 amd XIII.4 deal with fixed destiny/assurance. Section XIII.4 in particular deals with bodhisattas. But I can't really understand what they are saying and who's saying what. .... S: I've only just got round to opening this text and I'm also not sure I follow X111.4. I think here that niyama is understood to be referring to akusala kamma which brings its result instantly, anantariyakamma and the magga cittas which also bring their result instantly - phala cittas immediately following magga citta. I'm not sure if it's relevant to our discussion about the bodhisatta or not. It seems that when the Buddha referred to Bodhisattas as being of assured (niyata) destiny, some took this to mean that they had already attained magga citta which of course is not correct, as the magga citta arises only afte the realization of the Truths. ... > > S: By now, you've probably listened to many audio recordings on it too. > > pt: Which audio recordings on it do you mean? ... S: I mean the audio recordings which can be downloaded from or listened to on www.dhammastudygroup.org. In some of these, K.Sujin discusses (with me) in detail some of the points we were corresponding about. I forget exactly which series and tracks, but not the first 3 or 4 sets. Some of the ones in Bangkok with Jon and I. Someone else who has been listening a lot recently may be able to point to exact tracks. In any case, let us know if you listen to some sets and what you find interesting. Metta Sarah ======= #106787 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] DO in Aruppa planes nilovg Dear Alex, Op 13-apr-2010, om 23:13 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > What happens in Aruppa planes? How does DO function there > (especially the namarupa link)? ------- N: D.O. applies, but as the case demands; thus, in aruupa planes, ruupa is left out. I quote from my Visuddhimagga studies, Ch XVII, 206: Intro: In the following sections mentality, naama (cetasikas), is taken separately as conditioning factor for the sixth base, the mind- base, which is the citta it accompanies. --------- Text Vis. 206: Herein what follows illustrates the meaning. [(1) Mentality as Condition] In immaterial rebirth And life the mind alone will come In seven ways and six to be Condition at the minimum. -------- N: In the aruupa-brahma planes there is only naama, no ruupa. Here naama, cetasikas, condition only the sixth base, manaayatana, which is the citta they accompany. --------- Text Vis. 207: How? In rebirth-linking, firstly, mentality is a condition in seven ways at the minimum, as conascence, mutuality, support, association, kamma-result, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the sixth base. ------- N: As we have seen, mentality, naama, stands here for the cetasikas accompanying the rebirth-consciousness which is vipaakacitta. These cetasikas are also vipaaka. They condition the sixth base, manaayatana, the mind-base, which is the citta they accompany. The conditions mentioned here are those that pertain to conascent dhammas. Kamma-result is mentioned, because naama and the mind-base are here in this context both vipaaka. The rebirth-consciousness is vipaaka. Association-condition is mentioned because the conditioning dhammas and the conditioned dhamma are naama-dhammas that are associated, sampayutta. Different from dissociation-condition, vippayutta-paccaya, that pertains to naama and ruupa. ***** Nina. #106788 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta sarahprocter... Dear Han, Nori & all, Apologies for the delays in our discussion. I have a little more to add to the good comments and quotes you and Nina have given: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > Han:....In the book on D.O. by Nyaunglebin Sayadaw (who was well-known in Burma, but not so much out-side of the country), it is mentioned that the main cycle of twelve factors can be broken up into two smaller cycles. (1) Pubbantabhava cycle starting from avijjaa and ending in vedanaa; and (2) Aparantabhava cycle starting from ta.nhaa and ending in jaraa-mara.na. Sayadaw also explained how vedanaa can go back to avijjaa in Pubbantabhava cycle, and how jaraa-mara.na can go back to ta.nhaa in Aparantabhava cycle; and also how jaraa-mara.na can go back to avijjaa in the main cycle of twelve factors. The explanations given by Sayadaw are more or less the same as you have explained. .... S: We read in the commentaries about the reasons given for teaching D.O. in different ways. For example, in the Sammohavinodanii, Classification of the Structure of Conditions 601ff(Dispeller p 162f)it compares the different starting points to the "four creeper-gatherers' ways of seizing a creeper": i) One of the men pulls the root out first, just as the Buddha starts with avijja. (M i 261) "Accordingly, bhikkhus, with ignorance as condition formations [arise]...." ii) Another pulls out the upper part of the creeper first, just as the Buddha starts from the middle with tan.ha and upadaana. (M i 266) "In him who delights in, welcomes, remains committted to that feeling, there arises delight. Delight in feeling is clinging...." iii) Another seizes the tip, follows it to the root and takes all of the creeper, just as the Buddha starts from the end up to the beginning. (M i 261) "With birth as condition ageing and death [arise]...." iv) The last of these creeper-gatherers cuts the middle of it first and traces it downwards, just as the Buddha teaches from the middle up to the beginning. (S ii 11 ff) "And these four nutriments, bhikkhus, what is their source? From what are they born? By what are they produced? These four nutriments have craving as their source........" Later it says: "But in particular it should be recognised that i) when he sees that people susceptible to teaching are confused about the analysis of the causes of the process [of existence], he employs his teaching of it forwards starting from the beginning for the purpose of showing that the process [occurs] for its proper reasons and for the purpose of showing the order of arising. And iii) when he surveys the world as fallen upon trouble in the way stated thus: 'This world has fallen upon trouble; it is born, grows old, dies, passes away and reappears' (D ii 30; S ii 5), he employs his teaching of it backwards starting from the end for the purpose of showing the reasons for the various kinds of suffering beginning with ageing and death, [which reasons were] arrived at by himself in the course of his penetration in the prior stage. And (iv) he employs his teaching of it backwards, starting from the middle up to the beginning, in order to show how the succession of cause and fruit extends back into the past, and again forwards from the past, in accordance with the definition of origin as nutriment (see M i 47ff). And ii) he employs [his teaching of it forwards] starting from the middle upon the origination of the cause of the future in the present." As we read "For the Dependent Origination is entirely excellent. [Starting] from any one [of the four starting points] it leads only to the penetration of the right path." Metta Sarah ======== #106789 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:43 am Subject: Re: Nama vs Citta sarahprocter... Dear Nori (& Han), I don't think that I replied to the following: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > N:"So do you think in the sequence - > > Avijjaapaccayaa - ignorance > sa.nkhaaraa > vi~n~naa.na / Citta > naamaruupa > sa.laayatana. m > ... > > ... all of these things can occur sequentially, or non-sequentially in a 'single' given 'lifetime'? ... ... S: In this formulation, the avijja is particularly pointing to how past avijja led to past kamma which resulted in the birth and vipaka in this life. Now, as we know, avijja accumulates whenever akusala cittas arise. So now, when there is no dana, sila or bhavana, the cittas in the javana processes arise with avijja (ignorance). So there's lots and lots of avijja accumulating all the time, leading to the continuation of the cycle, life after life. .... >and if so then what (phenomenon) is actually ignorant, and what (phenomenon) is actually giving birth? ... S: Avijja (ignorance) is a cetasika (mental factor) which arises with most cittas (moments of consciousness) in the day when kusala (wholesome) cittas are not arising. It arises with the javana cittas in the sense door processes (which follow moments of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching) and also with the javana cittas in the mind-door processes. Most of the day, we're living in our dreams with avijja. Birth refers to patisandhi citta, the first moment of consciousness of life. It is past kamma that conditioned birth. Sankhaara in this context refers to this past kamma. So because avijja has not been eradicated, kamma is conditioned which brings results. ... >> S: "Let's start with avijja. Avijja arises with all unwholesome (akusala) cittas. So now, ..." > >N: So to apply what you said specifically to the question, I think what you mean is that Avijja can refer over and over again to any citta's that arise in one given life; ... S: I think we have to understand how avijja accumulates now, so that we can understand how past avijja conditioned kamma which resulted in birth and all resulting cittas in this life. Present avijja will continue in the same way to accumulate, condition more kamma which will bring about birth again and again until it is eradicated. .... >while Jati always refers to a birth in the next life... is this correct? ... S: Any birth is jati, but in this context it is pointing to how the cycle continues, leading to further jati and so on in future. ... > I think I understand your other comments on D.O.; thank you for the explanations. ... S: Thank you for your helpful comments and questions too. Han or you may have further comments. Metta Sarah >> S: Jon and I live in Hong Kong.... I'm from England. > >N: Oh that's right; what a change from England, though, I guess it was British... must speak fluent Chinese by now. Actually, nowadays, every major city around the world is becoming similar. Have you ever been up north/NW into the mountains or countryside of China? I hope to go visit sometime... ... S: let us know if you visit! We speak enough Cantonese to get around, but not fluent. We travelled a bit in China back in the 80s, but hardly since then. In those days, still bicycles and Mao jackets and empty stores and no traffic....big changes.... ======= #106790 From: Vince Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: DO in Aruppa planes cerovzt@... Rob wrote: > What is metta / kindness? Even a child or even a dog can recognize > kindness in certain kinds of subtle body language; gestures, > postures, and facial expressions, or a 'look; in the eyes. However, > it is hard to ascertain exact material characteristics, perceivable > by the sense doors, of kindness. Neuroscience associates it with > activity in the empathy centers of the brain. also I would be very glad to read about what metta is. In these years I have not found in Buddhism a deep explanation of the metta process and the elements involved in its arising. thanks, Vince. #106791 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kusala for kusala sake upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Azita & Lukas) - In a message dated 4/14/2010 3:19:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Azita (& Lukas), > >A: was listening to a recorded discussion re kusala actions. That particular conversation was about doing kusala for one's own benefit, or for someone else's benefit, the third was doing kusala for the sake of the dhamma. > > > > my query is how would the third and IMO, the purest kind, manifest itself. ... S: I thought Lukas gave a very good answer below: when it's the right understanding of realities, there is a greater appreciation of kusala as kusala and it's far purer - not for the sake of any 'benefits'. ... > L: The third one is not for anyone, this is forgeting persons and things. This is kusala development only for the sake of understanding. No persons and things. We think a lot of me, benefits for me, and other people, benefits for them. But when we forget this, then this is practicing kusala for the sake of the dhamma. > > This is development of kusala by right understanding. > > you dont need to practicing for yourself, or practice for other people. Just do it for the sake of the dhamma. No concepts than. ... S: Very nicely put, Lukas. Metta Sarah ===================================== Interestingly, there is a similar (but theistically formulated) notion in Judaism (and I would suppose in Christianity) that speaks of three sorts of actions: those that are for one's own sake, those for the sake of others, and (here it comes), those "for the sake of heaven". That third category just refers to actions that are inherently right and require no extrinsic motive. They amount to kusala for kusala's sake, and, IMO, are the highest form of kusala and bring with them, even though there be no intention in that direction, a plethora of good effect. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kusala for kusala sake nilovg Hi Howard, Very interesting. The word heaven is used, but we can replace it by Dhamma. Nina. Op 14-apr-2010, om 14:05 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Interestingly, there is a similar (but theistically formulated) notion > in Judaism (and I would suppose in Christianity) that speaks of three > sorts of actions: those that are for one's own sake, those for the > sake of > others, and (here it comes), those "for the sake of heaven". That > third > category just refers to actions that are inherently right and > require no extrinsic > motive. They amount to kusala for kusala's sake, and, IMO, are the > highest > form of kusala and bring with them, even though there be no > intention in > that direction, a plethora of good effect. #106793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] After maggaphala nilovg Dear Alex, Op 13-apr-2010, om 18:11 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Questions: > 1) What happens after maggaphala moment? Lets say sotopanna magga/ > phala was reached. When that has happened, maggaphala arose and > *ceased*, does the person reverts to a "normal" person? ------- N: Any citta, like seeing, or thinking can arise afterwards. However, he has become a different person, an ariyan who has eradicated wrong view completely. He does not wrongly believe that he sees a person through eyesense, or that a self sees. We are so used to an idea of 'I see'. --------- > > A: 2) How would a person be classified after, lets say, sotopanna > magga/phala moment? ------- N: As an ariyan who is sotaapanna. He has not eradicated lobha and dosa but he cannot commit heavy kamma that leads to an unhappy rebirth. He is still sad when he loses a dear person. -------- > > A: 3) If wrong views (and any other bad tendencies, impulses, etc) > of the mind is the result of interaction of internal mind base and > external mental objects*, then what prevents an awakened person > from experiencing those elements (which s/he has got rid of due to > maggaphala)? manayatana + dhammayatana or manodhatu + dhammadhatu -> manovinnana dhatu ------- N: Manaayatana are all cittas. These include kusala cittas, akusala cittas with or without wrong view. Dhammaayatana, includes cetasikas, subtle ruupa and nibbaana. Your question is not put quite correctly, as regards interaction. We know that the sotaapanna has no more wrong view, but that he still has akusala cittas. For him there is manaayatana and dhammaayatana. Nina. #106794 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt scottduncan2 Dear Ken H., Regarding: D: "when we are calm , peace of mind, volition rests and nothing is between the world /the all of our senses..." KH: "It may sound beautiful, but it goes against everything I understand about the Dhamma...the smoke-and-mirrors language of poets in preference to the Dhamma..." Scott: I agree, Ken. It's the Emperor's clothes. For one thing, cetanaa arises with every citta so, as far as I know, it doesn't 'rest.' Not much to praise in the sentiment as far as I can tell. It does sound 'buddhisty' though. Sincerely, Scott. #106795 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] After maggaphala truth_aerator Dear Nina, Thank you for your replies. With metta, Alex #106796 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kusala for kusala sake upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/14/2010 10:26:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Very interesting. The word heaven is used, but we can replace it by Dhamma. ------------------------------------------------ Yes, that's right!! ------------------------------------------------ Nina. =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106797 From: "Dieter" Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Howard, (all), you wrote: ' Dieter, I rarely write "sadhu" messages, but I consider what I quoted above of yours to be simply beautiful, simply lovely! :-) Thanks , Howard! I am not really surprised to find that meanwhile your very nice response is questioned . Well, in the 'valley of the dried bones' even moisture is suspected... :-) with Metta Dieter P.S: H: State of Peace > > //Volition rests and nothing is between ... // > > (D. Moeller) not really exclusive :-) ..instead , I would prefer the quote from your favorite sutta : 'Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of dissatisfaction (dukkha)." --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Dieter (and Sarah & Jon) - > > In a message dated 4/13/2010 1:33:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > moellerdieter@... writes: > > D: when we are calm , peace of mind, volition rests and nothing is > between the world /the all of our senses, there is a state of consciousness > called samatha, tranquillity . > That is when the monkey (mind) takes a break ..and at this moment (Citta) > either investigation into details of all ( 6 senses/Dhammas) is possible > or > leaving that all behind step by step (absorbtion ) , i.e. the way of Sati > or Jhana , corresponding to the 7th and 8th step of the Noble Path. > =============================== > Dieter, I rarely write "sadhu" messages, but I consider what I quoted > above of yours to be simply beautiful, simply lovely! :-) > > With metta, > Howard > > > State of Peace > > //Volition rests and nothing is between ... // > > (D. Moeller) > > #106798 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Deiter >D: when we are calm , peace of mind, volition rests and nothing is between the world /the all of our senses, there is a state of consciousness called samatha, tranquillity . >That is when the monkey (mind) takes a break ..and at this moment (Citta) either investigation into details of all ( 6 senses/Dhammas) is possible or >leaving that all behind step by step (absorbtion ) , i.e. the way of Sati or Jhana , corresponding to the 7th and 8th step of the Noble Path. >It is confusing when Vipassana is reserved for Sati Patthana and Samatha for Samma Samadhi , in fact insight is the purpose of both and tranquillity >with its major absence of the 6 hindrances assumption to be aware respectively able to focus ( one-pointedness of the mind) KO: I like to point out that volition can never rest and citta can never take a break because one citta ceases. the other citta arise, it continues due to conditonality, To develop the state of calm is not just about concentration, because calmness can never happen without mindfulness and alobha to withdraw from sense objects and turn the mind towards fixing on the object of concentration. That is why samatha could only be develop through virtue and restraint of sense faculities, and in the Buddha dhamma, clear comprehension that there is not self. Without these, mindfulness cannot set a foothold, a foundation. It is not the concentration that give mindfulness the foot hold, it is the mindfulness that condition the foothold, the foundation for concentration to fix on an object. And not all samatha bhavana is fixing exclusively one object, there are samatha bhavana that perceive the foul in the lovely. Whatever samatha bhavana one undertake, only after emerging from concentration then could one develop insight You quote: 'Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of dissatisfaction (dukkha)." From seen to cognize - this is vipassana bhavana and not samatha bhavana. This is developing understanding cittas as dhamma. This is the AS way of development. Samantha bhavana is based on conceptual object and when the text mention on contemplating on dhatus, feelings, mental objects, that is after jhanas have been obtained and not before jhanas. To say what is samatha now, is asking what is listening now or reading dhamma now. So the now of samatha is on fixing an object conditon by sati. the now of vipassana is on the citta or cetasikas by sati Without sati as a protector and reminder, there is no now for the two bhavanas. Kind regards Ken O >Everybody may remember states of samatha , which sometimes happen e.g . after having finished a task done which much effort , allowing to let go, or conditions may be right while realizing day dreaming .... for example the brief moments after a good sleep and getting up .. >( not to talk of an occasion similar to when the Prince was sitting under the shadow of the Rose Apple Tree watching his father working.. ) > >The training of the samadhi sequence of the Noble Path aims that we are able to develop these states of consciousness at will and do not have to rely on chances.. > >with Metta Dieter > #106799 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 4/14/2010 12:33:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, (all), you wrote: ' Dieter, I rarely write "sadhu" messages, but I consider what I quoted above of yours to be simply beautiful, simply lovely! :-) Thanks , Howard! I am not really surprised to find that meanwhile your very nice response is questioned . Well, in the 'valley of the dried bones' even moisture is suspected... :-) ------------------------------------------------------- I expected it to be questioned. No surprises. ;-) Say, Dieter, you are becoming quite an excellent English-language poet. I really love your "in the 'valley of the dried bones' even moisture is suspected... " Is that something you've read, or is it original with you? ------------------------------------------------------ with Metta Dieter P.S: H: State of Peace > > //Volition rests and nothing is between ... // > > (D. Moeller) not really exclusive :-) ..instead , I would prefer the quote from your favorite sutta : 'Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of dissatisfaction (dukkha)." ------------------------------------------------------- :-) One of my favorites!! ============================= With metta, Howard Emptiness of Consciousness and Object /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta)