#107600 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 14, 2010 9:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/14/2010 8:28:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: OK, you've identified 4 'levels' of 'reality' (nibbana, namas and rupas, rhinoceroses and unicorns) here. ===================================== I'm going to zero in just on this, Jon. Yes, I think that those 4 levels constitute a not-bad break down. Of these, I consider only level 1 to be absolute reality, with all others being conventional but with increasing "reality" as one goes step by step from level 4 (Unreal) down to level 1 (As real as real can be). You, I believe, accord absolute reality to both levels 1 and 2, conventional reality to level 3, and no reality to level 4, and so, we differ in our "reality attribution" with the primary difference at level 2. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107602 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat May 15, 2010 1:46 am Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, > > > > Hello Jon, Dieter, all, > > > > > > What is the difference between lets say: > > Kamma and vipaka? > > kusala kamma and kusalavipaka? > > akusala kamma and akusalavipaka? > > > > > > While we cannot "control" things, can we influence future result? > --------------------------- > >K: What is the difference between control and influence? Influence = changing the future (within range of possibilities dictated by other conditions), setting up more causes for success later on. There is a development of certain thing that eventually becomes a skill. Kamma on does now, influence future kammavipaka. An ordinary example: One practices to play the piano and eventually one becomes proficient at it. Or one studies and considers the Dhamma which influences understanding faculty. If there was no possibility of influence of any kind, then studying and considering Dhamma would be ineffective. One could gain awakening by anything other (even studying and believing in heretical teachings) if there was no such thing as influence. Kamma is what citta does, it is an influence of sort. Vipaka is the result. Sure the circumstances limit the possible choices, but choice is whenever citta knows the alternatives, chooses and does. One isn't a criminal by accumulations, only by present choice. > ---------------- > A: > Example: A person who has heard about kusala/akusala things >practices abstaining from as many akusala activities as possible. >Doesn't that influence the future? > Of course it does! > ---------------- > > If you are going to talk about a person who practises then, sure, >you have to talk about the results he influences in the future. > >The Dhamma, however, is about a different reality, in which there >is no person who practises, and no person who experiences the >results of practice. That is a play of words, KenH. Can citta influence future citta? Can development of kusala skills now influence arising of more or better kusalavipaka later on? Or are you saying that doing kusala or akusala is both as likely to produce the same result (vipaka) later on? That is immoral and view of inefficiency of action! Wrong teaching! Of course kusala done now can influence arising of kusala later on, otherwise we have a fatalistic Makkhali Gosala teaching of nothing can be done, one is a criminal (or a saint) solely due to what was done in the past (and if there is no influence, then what are you doing by studying, reading and considering if it cannot help you gain more wisdom or understanding?). > --------------------------------- > A: > So effort can be done to influence understanding -> > > "Bhikkhus, one might look on equanimously at one's blazing > clothes or head, paying no attention to them, but so long as one has not yet made the breakthrough to the Four Noble Truths as they really are [attain Sotapatti], in order to make the breakthrough one should arouse extraordinary desire, make an extraordinary effort, stir up zeal and enthusiasm, be unremitting, and exercise mindfulness and clear comprehension" - SN 56.34 (4)Clothes > --------------------------------- > > That is one long sentence. There seems to be something left out in the middle. But, generally, it is about the conditioned dhammas that condition path-consciousness. Isn't it? > > Ken H > It talks about "...In order to make the breakthrough one should arouse extraordinary desire, make an extraordinary effort, stir up zeal and enthusiasm, be unremitting," these do not sound like past passive description. This is present active prescriptions! Buddha is like a doctor, we are like a patient. If you read the label, worship it, study Chemistry, Physics, Biology, get PhD - it will not cure sickness! In fact one will probably die long before that... Just take the pill. Kusala in the future won't arise if one doesn't do any kusala now. IMHO, for most people, if one doesn't do kusala than most likely one does akusala (and it makes the future worse through influencing the akusalavipaka later on). With metta, Alex #107603 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat May 15, 2010 7:21 am Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. kenhowardau Hi Alex, --------- A: > > > While we cannot "control" things, can we influence future result? KH: > > What is the difference between control and influence? A: > Influence = changing the future (within range of possibilities dictated by other conditions), setting up more causes for success later on. ----------- Setting up conditions now for happiness in the future is the conventional way of life, isn't it? It appeals to everyone who believes in a permanent - or persisting - self. But there is no self. If there were, then the kind of influence you have described would be possible. Not only that, (as the Anattalakkhana Sutta explains) full control would also be possible. The difference between influence (partial control) and full control is only a matter of degree. The two are essentially the same. As the sutta says, if consciousness pertained to a self in any way at all, it would ultimately be possible to decree, "Let my consciousness be not thus (anicca, dukkha and anatta)," "Let my consciousness be thus (icca, subha and atta)." ----------------------- A: > There is a development of certain thing that eventually becomes a skill. Kamma on does now, influence future kammavipaka. An ordinary example: One practices to play the piano and eventually one becomes proficient at it. Or one studies and considers the Dhamma which influences understanding faculty. If there was no possibility of influence of any kind, then studying and considering Dhamma would be ineffective. One could gain awakening by anything other (even studying and believing in heretical teachings) if there was no such thing as influence. Kamma is what citta does, it is an influence of sort. Vipaka is the result. Sure the circumstances limit the possible choices, but choice is whenever citta knows the alternatives, chooses and does. One isn't a criminal by accumulations, only by present choice. --------------------- Yes, that is the conventional explanation. But it is not way of the world described by the Buddha. In his explanation there are only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. --------------------------------- <. . .> A: > That is a play of words, KenH. Can citta influence future citta? --------------------------------- The only concern of citta is to experience the present object of consciousness. It can do so in a purely functional way, or it can do so in a akusala way (with lobha, dosa and/or moha) or in an akusala way (with amoha and/or alobha and adosa). Citta is not concerned with trying to influence future cittas. Ken H #107604 From: "sarah" Date: Sat May 15, 2010 10:51 am Subject: Re: One step at a time, one citta at a time.... sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, Yes, however one wishes to put it, it's pointing to the present moment....that's all there ever is. Here, there's a Cantonese expression which says "See step, walk step". It's always helpful to be reminded about now, what's appearing now and to develop understanding. "Just understand!" is to me a reminder that all the thinking about terms, concepts and ideas is just that - thinking. "A pleasant panacea", actually the only way out... As for "the ways of the world", we put our flat on the market on Monday, arranging for open house viewings today (Sat). By Thursday it was sold and by Friday signed and sealed! Even by Hong Kong standards that's fast. Now we'll be moving to the beach in Manly, Sydney sometime in June! A week ago, we had no plan for this at all at this time:) Gain, loss, good fortune, bad fortune, moment to moment..... pleasant, unpleasant visible object....we never know what kamma has been accumulated! A lot of work to do and my eyes are so sore, I can hardly look at the screen.... I think just tired from trying to make our place look like an "Ideal Home" cover for a few days..... gradually pulling out all the messes again, now! At least Jon can eat the display grapes and we can cook again:-) Having said that, Jon's just come in with some noodles, so (with a little good past kamma), off for some pleasant tastes... Lobha all the way is what it comes down to.... Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Sarah and all > > I agree, very grateful to the Buddha these days, as always. #107605 From: Ken O Date: Sat May 15, 2010 12:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How to be a good guy? Be one. ashkenn2k Dear Lukas >L: I have to say but I've had those kind of reflections in life, they were very natural and lead to wise attention. But I dont know how to apply to this object now, to make thise wise reflection arise again. How to do this? Shall I force myself when seeing a nice girl: this is just decaying body, nothing plesant with that? Or those psyches are so fleeting nothing to be attracted to. anicca. > KO:? It should suit your way of thinking.? If you cannot reflect on it, leave it and use the other methods that you have been using.? this is for wise reflections, reflection the disadvantages of beautiful objects.? Cheers Ken O #107606 From: Ken O Date: Sat May 15, 2010 12:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ashkenn2k Dear Jon >What it means is that the Buddha was describing awareness/insight with dhammas, not conventional objects, as object. KO:? depending, when Buddha talks about conventional objects, it is about the understanding of the objects or the dhamma that arise with the objects. > >Sorry, I don't see how this relates to the point. > >I was saying that when the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta are mentioned in the suttas, it is invariably in the context of dhammas - not conventional objects - that this mention is made. KO:? There are suttas that use conventional description to describe the three charactertistics, not necessary to confine to paramatha dhamma as the main stay.? such examples are useful for the eradication of the akusala or the?understanding of the dhamma. Cheers Ken #107607 From: Ken O Date: Sat May 15, 2010 1:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) ashkenn2k Dear Sukin ? >> KO: apple is a concept definitely. so does breathing >> meditation. So does that mean the very idea of breathing meditiaton >> is papanca or the dhamma that arise with it. >> > >Sukin: Sure it is all about dhammas arising to perform their functions >and falling away. And when I state that the idea of 'meditation' as put >forward by you and others is wrong, this is not pointing to any >characteristic of concepts, they after all have none, but to the wrong >view behind the conceiving of the idea. ;-) KO:? are you saying what is written in the Visud like reciting verbally and mentally is wrong.?It is using concepts as a conditional factor for the understanding of dhamma.? So what is wrong., the idea of the meditation, the meditation itself or the method or the aksuala dhamma that arise be clear in your explanation because you are mixing dhamma with concepts. Cheers Ken O #107608 From: Ken O Date: Sat May 15, 2010 1:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ashkenn2k Dear Ken H > >---------- ><. . .> >KH: > > . . . to understand dhammas as anatta you must first know what dhammas are. Most Buddhists these days are looking for anatta in concepts. >> > > >KO:?> Understanding anatta is not about differentiating conventional reality and ultimate reality.? It is the understanding of dhamma that help one to understand anatta.? Even concepts can help one to understand dhamma as anatta.?? >---------- > >That's fair enough - provided we know that concepts do not have the anatta characteristic. There is no point in thinking that you and I - as persisting entities - are devoid of persisting entities. That would be nonsensical. Only dhammas are anatta. > KO:? it is not whether an object of the mind as persisting entities, it is the dhamma that arises that has the characteristics.? It is impt to differentitatte the objects and the dhamma that arise with the objects.? Whatever bhavana, it is always the dhamma that arise that matter, the object is just a conditioning paccaya but not the cause of the aksuala dhamma. >------- > >That's true, but, if you continue to understand listening and reading in the conventional way, you have not yet got the message! > KO:? No ordinary human being can listen without conventional way,???and understanding starts from conventional way till vipassana nana unless one panna is highly developed like Sariputta who could listen to four verse and become a sotapanna (if I am recollect correctly). \ >----------- >KO: > Any development starts from listening which is a conventional action that take on conceptuals objects.? >----------- > >In reality there are no conventional actions, there are only dhammas. > >Listening, in the ultimate sense, is a citta - a dhamma - and it can be either kusala or akusala. However, listening in the conventional sense is ultimately an illusion, and therefore it is neither kusala nor akusala. > KO:? You contradiction yourself, you said it is true that we need to listening to developing dhamma?yet there is no convention action, there are only dhammas.? Without dhamma?like cetana, would you listen.? So are you deluding yourself there is no conventional action.? Again I have said this many times, what is wrong with conventional actions, the dhamma that arise or the conventional action?itself.?? ? > >KO:?> Not whether one want or not, dhamma will direct.? When one listen to dhamma, the dhamma cetana and vitakka will direct the mind to the object of listening.? If there is no directing of the mind towards an object, one cannot listen. >------------ --------- --- > >Good, I am glad we agree on that. Listening (like anything else in reality) will happen when there are conditions for it to happen. So there is no "method" for listening. There is no method for anything, there are only uncontrolled dhammas. > KO:? Nope there is a method, it is all written in Visud and the texts.? Dhamma is anatta, not about control or no control.? Anatta is about no exerciseing power over dhamma because one cannot change the way dhamma work or the functions, characteristics, manifestations?and not about control or no control.? If dhamma cannot be control, then dhamam will not be able to perform its function like cetana, vittaka and chanda or panna or ditthi.? cheers Ken O #107609 From: Ken O Date: Sat May 15, 2010 1:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? ashkenn2k Dear Mike yes it is chanda.? Some translate chanda as desire, personally, I?felt it is not?a good translation.? Wish to do ?is a better translation cheers Ken O #107610 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat May 15, 2010 2:11 pm Subject: Influence. truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, > Hi Alex, > Setting up conditions now for happiness in the future is the >conventional way of life, isn't it? It appeals to everyone who >believes in a permanent - or persisting - self. If one couldn't do anything, than no progress in Dhamma could be affected in any way. Ex: a person who would give charity to 100 people vs a person who would kill 100 people would both have an equal influence on the future. I hope you are not implying this! If there was no possibility of influence of any kind, then studying and considering Dhamma would be ineffective. One could gain awakening by anything (even studying and believing in heretical teachings) if there was no such thing as influence. >KH:But there is no self. If there were, then the kind of influence >you have described would be possible. Not only that, (as the >Anattalakkhana Sutta explains) full control would also be possible. >The difference between influence (partial control) and full control >is only a matter of degree. The two are essentially the same. Does arisen nana change anything (ex: dispel avijja?) But does the sutta deny the ability to gradually CHANGE from lets say akusala to kusala? It doesn't. This is what we are talking about. With metta, Alex #107611 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 15, 2010 2:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk on Appamaada (4) nilovg Dear Han, Op 15-mei-2010, om 2:58 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: I like your last reply and appreciate it very much. > It has been a useful and profitable discussion with you. ------ N: From my side, likewise. I hope you will start another thread with more useful quotes from Sayadaws. Outside Birma we do not have much opportunity to hear from them. Nina. #107612 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 15, 2010 2:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 14-mei-2010, om 19:21 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > the quotation from the suttas: snip ..'There is the case where a > monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & > exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, > unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... etc. > 'Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a > bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole > nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which > evil and unwholesome things might arise etc.' > > if we don't have any control about our reaction , above guidelines > would be totally useless , wouldn't it? -------- N: Conditions for kusala and understanding can be cultivated, but not by what we call a person or a self. Citta and cetasikas are operating all the time. There is a Path and it can be developed. The Buddha's exhortations can be a condition for citta and cetasikas to keep on developing the Path, not getting bored or tired by it. I appreciate it so much that the Abhidhamma at every page reminds us that there is no person, only citta, cetasika and ruupa. Nina. #107613 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 15, 2010 2:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One step at a time, one citta at a time.... nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 15-mei-2010, om 12:51 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Now we'll be moving to the beach in Manly, Sydney sometime in June! > A week ago, we had no plan for this at all at this time:) Gain, > loss, good fortune, bad fortune, moment to moment..... pleasant, > unpleasant visible object....we never know what kamma has been > accumulated! ------- N: What a surprise. We never know what kamma has in store for us. I wish you a lot of strength and good luck with your moving. Courageous to undertake such a change. Nina. #107614 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 15, 2010 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Dieter) - In a message dated 5/15/2010 10:55:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Dieter, Op 14-mei-2010, om 19:21 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > the quotation from the suttas: snip ..'There is the case where a > monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & > exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, > unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... etc. > 'Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a > bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole > nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which > evil and unwholesome things might arise etc.' > > if we don't have any control about our reaction , above guidelines > would be totally useless , wouldn't it? -------- N: Conditions for kusala and understanding can be cultivated, but not by what we call a person or a self. Citta and cetasikas are operating all the time. There is a Path and it can be developed. The Buddha's exhortations can be a condition for citta and cetasikas to keep on developing the Path, not getting bored or tired by it. I appreciate it so much that the Abhidhamma at every page reminds us that there is no person, only citta, cetasika and ruupa. ---------------------------------------------------------- When someone who is unconfused says that a person is cultivating conditions for wholesome mental conditions and understanding, s/he understands that what is actually happening is that a variety of mental operations, including thinking and willing, are underway that lay the groundwork for the arising of such conditions. There is no need every time such cultivation is discussed, however, to add this disclaimer, or, even worse, to go to verbal contortions to avoid mention of "someone" or "I" or , making discussion so stilted as to be near-impossible. The Buddha didn't do that, because he actually wanted to be able to communicate to people, and IMO we shouldn't do it either. We particularly shouldn't use the reality of not-self as a weapon, as some do - not you, Nina, to falsely accuse folks of atta-view. -------------------------------------------------------- Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107615 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat May 15, 2010 4:31 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Dear Nina (Jon, Alex), (D: 'There is the case where a > monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & > exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, > unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... etc. > 'Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a > bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole > nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which > evil and unwholesome things might arise etc.' > if we don't have any control about our reaction , above guidelines would be totally useless , wouldn't it?) N: Conditions for kusala and understanding can be cultivated, but not by what we call a person or a self. Citta and cetasikas are operating all the time. There is a Path and it can be developed. The Buddha's exhortations can be a condition for citta and cetasikas to keep on developing the Path, not getting bored or tired by it. I appreciate it so much that the Abhidhamma at every page reminds us that there is no person, only citta, cetasika and ruupa. D: yes, the truth an Arahant is realizing . As we all know , conceit , this core value of the self delusion is only abolished at this level .. For us Worldlings it means we need to work with the available state of mind even if we got the point that the (suffering) self is nothing but a conditioned process of interrelated factors , as explained by DO and in detail analysed by Abhidhamma. Right Effort means mental action / active training with the mind , the disciple is requested to generate desire , endeavours , to arouse persistence , strives to ward off etc. As part of the Noble Path it isn`t an exhortation , but the Buddha's instruction for path development . Whether we follow it by refering to citta and cetasika or our will isn't so important but that we do it, is. with Metta Dieter #107616 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat May 15, 2010 6:16 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Howard,Nina , Jon and all, you wrote : 'When someone who is unconfused says that a person is cultivating conditions for wholesome mental conditions and understanding, s/he understands that what is actually happening is that a variety of mental operations,including thinking and willing, are underway that lay the groundwork for the arising of such conditions. There is no need every time such cultivation is discussed, however, to add this disclaimer, or, even worse, to go to verbal contortions to avoid mention of "someone" or "I" or , making discussion so stilted as to be near-impossible. The Buddha didn't do that, because he actually wanted to be able to communicate to people, and IMO we shouldn't do it either. We particularly shouldn't use the reality of not-self as a weapon, as some do - not you, Nina, to falsely accuse folks of atta-view.' D: well said, Howard. I read your message only when posted mine already .. Nina's reference 'The Buddha's exhortations can be a condition for citta and cetasikas to keep on developing the Path, not getting bored or tired by it', made me think about the Buddha's last words . There is an interesting discussion about the translation of the Pali term 'appamada ' , which is so closely related with Right Effort , particular in the meaning of 'guarding the senses.' It may be of interest for you too so I just add what I noted so far.. with Metta Dieter . Dharmacari Jayarava http://jayarava.org/buddhas-last-words.html#return27 Bringing all of this information together we can now attempt a translation of the phrase, the Buddha's sacred last words: vayadhamma- sankha-ra- appama-dena sampa-detha All compounded things, all experiences (mental and physical), all phenomena by their very nature decay and die, and are disappointing: it is through being not-blind-drunk on, obsessed by, or infatuated with, the objects of the senses that you succeed in awakening, or obtain liberation. Or more succinctly: All things are disappointing, [it is] through vigilance [that] you succeed. W. Rhys Davids "Then the Blessed One addressed the brethren, and said, 'behold now, brethren, I exhort you, saying, "Decay is inherent in all component things! Work out your salvation with diligence!"'. This was the last word of the Tatha-gata. [ 43 ] Maurice Walsh Then the Lord said to the Monks: Now, monks, I declare to you: all conditions things are of a nature to decay - strive on untiringly. These were the Tatha-gata's last words. [ 44 ] Thanissaro Bhikkhu Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Now, then, monks, I exhort you: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about completion by being heedful." Those were the Tathagata's last words. [ 45 ] Sister Vajira & Francis Story And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness! [ 46 ] Nyanatiloka appama-da: 'zeal', non-laxity, earnestness, diligence, is considered as the foundation of all progress. Just as all the footprints of living beings are surpassed by the footprint of the elephant, and the footprint of the elephant is considered as the mightiest amongst them, just so have all the meritorious qualities zeal as their foundation, and zeal is considered as the mightiest of these qualities'' (A. X, 15). Cf. the Chapter on Zeal (Appama-da Vagga) in Dhp., and the Buddha's last exhortation: "Transient are all formations. Strive zealously!" (appama-dena sampa-detha: D. 16) - In the commentaries, it is often explained as the presence (lit. 'non-absence') of mindfulness (satiya- avippava-sa). A Zen Buddhist Group Appamada is a Pali word that means mindful, active care. According to the earliest recorded teachings of the Buddha, it was a common theme in his teaching and the last word that he used, encouraging his followers to fare forward with appamada—with care. He often compared appamada to an elephant's footprint, which is so large that it can contain the footprint of all the other animals. In the same way, the Buddha said, mindful, clear care contains the heart of all of his teachings. We have adopted this name for our community of practice and inquiry because it reflects not only our aspiration as teachers, but our sense of the community as a whole, and its contribution in the world. (You can read more background here.) In our teaching we draw on the Zen teachings and tradition we were trained in, as well as other Buddhist teachings and contemporary work in psychology, interpersonal neurobiology, language, the sciences, and philosophy. Stephen Batchelor http://api.ning.com/files/0lx0ksvfJtv1Pw-rW1xQCNhqa1MAb-kvMN4Yz3ED*FGVZzncTSHrWc\ Dvdhg8VLjXKCh2ZeiAjUn6ZVALa0orVpIXuiui4I5H/AppamadaBatchelorarticle.pdf The difficulty with this term is expressed by the fact that different translators in different Buddhist traditions can’t actually agree on what is the best word in English. Some of the terms which we may have come across include vigilance, diligence, heedfulness and conscientiousness. One German translator, Ernst Steinkellner, translated it as wachsame Sorge. Wachsame means wakeful or watchful, and Sorga means something like care or concern. So watchful concern. Or watchful care. But I think it’s also more than that. Notice that it is the very last word the Buddha uttered, at least according the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta. Whether the Buddha actually said them or not (after all, we can’t really know) those around him at the time, and subsequent tradition, came to consider—or perhaps did in fact correctly remember—that this was the point the Buddha made just as he was on the verge of his own death. So clearly appama-da, both for the Buddha and for the tradition that immediately followed him, is regarded as a key. That is to say it is something to be cultivated, something to be developed, and somehow synthesizes everything he taught. "Conditions are subject to decay," he famously said. "Work out your salvation with care." #107617 From: "Dieter" Date: Sat May 15, 2010 6:41 pm Subject: Re: Talk on Appamaada (4) moellerdieter Dear Han , sorry , just recognized there is a thread of appamaada already,which I should have noted. After reading I may come back in case of questions , comments from your side in relation to Right Effort are very wellcome too.. with Metta Dieter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina, Lukas, > > This is my last installment. > > ---------- > > Sayadaw U Nyanissara then talked about how to apply sati in satipa.t.thaana, and some of the verses from Appamaada vagga of Dhammapada. I will not go into these, as all of these are in the books. > > #107618 From: han tun Date: Sat May 15, 2010 9:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk on Appamaada (4) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind words and encouragement. I will do it when I have the next opportunity. Respectfully, Han --- On Sat, 5/15/10, Nina van Gorkom wrote: N: From my side, likewise. I hope you will start another thread with more useful quotes from Sayadaws. Outside Birma we do not have much opportunity to hear from them. Nina. #107619 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun May 16, 2010 1:53 am Subject: Re: Influence. kenhowardau Hi Alex, ------------- <. . .> A: > If one couldn't do anything, then no progress in Dhamma could be affected in any way. Ex: a person who would give charity to 100 people vs a person who would kill 100 people would both have an equal influence on the future. I hope you are not implying this! -------------- You are right; if there was a self that could either do something or do nothing then one of those two practices would have to be followed. However, there is no self - there are only conditioned dhammas - and so the question of whether to do something or do nothing does not arise. ------------------- A: > If there was no possibility of influence of any kind, then studying and considering Dhamma would be ineffective. One could gain awakening by anything (even studying and believing in heretical teachings) if there was no such thing as influence. -------------------- Yes, all that would be true if there was a permanent self of some kind. In such a case there would be two competing theories: one would be, "Do something in order to reach nibbana," while the other would be, "Do nothing and nibbana will come to you." The Buddha taught a middle way in which there was no self, and therefore no doing something and no not-doing something. ----------- <. . .> A: > Does arisen nana change anything (ex: dispel avijja?) ----------- Yes, every time nana (panna) arises there is no avijja. And the conditions for avijja to arise in the future are slightly eroded. The conditions for panna to arise again in the future are slightly increased. ----------------------- A: > But does the sutta deny the ability to gradually CHANGE from lets say akusala to kusala? It doesn't. This is what we are talking about. ------------------------ Do you mean "does the sutta deny mental deveolpment (bhavana)?" No, it simply denies that mental development pertains to an on-going entity. Ken H #107620 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 15, 2010 11:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Nina & Jon) - In a message dated 5/15/2010 2:17:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard,Nina , Jon and all, you wrote : 'When someone who is unconfused says that a person is cultivating conditions for wholesome mental conditions and understanding, s/he understands that what is actually happening is that a variety of mental operations,including thinking and willing, are underway that lay the groundwork for the arising of such conditions. There is no need every time such cultivation is discussed, however, to add this disclaimer, or, even worse, to go to verbal contortions to avoid mention of "someone" or "I" or , making discussion so stilted as to be near-impossible. The Buddha didn't do that, because he actually wanted to be able to communicate to people, and IMO we shouldn't do it either. We particularly shouldn't use the reality of not-self as a weapon, as some do - not you, Nina, to falsely accuse folks of atta-view.' D: well said, Howard. ----------------------------------------------------- Thank you, Dieter. -------------------------------------------------- I read your message only when posted mine already .. Nina's reference 'The Buddha's exhortations can be a condition for citta and cetasikas to keep on developing the Path, not getting bored or tired by it', made me think about the Buddha's last words . There is an interesting discussion about the translation of the Pali term 'appamada ' , which is so closely related with Right Effort , particular in the meaning of 'guarding the senses.' It may be of interest for you too so I just add what I noted so far.. --------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for that. It's quite interesting. (I leave it w/o comment at the bottom.) --------------------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter ==================================== With metta, Howard . Dharmacari Jayarava http://jayarava.org/buddhas-last-words.html#return27 Bringing all of this information together we can now attempt a translation of the phrase, the Buddha's sacred last words: vayadhamma- sankha-ra- appama- dena sampa-detha All compounded things, all experiences (mental and physical), all phenomena by their very nature decay and die, and are disappointing: it is through being not-blind-drunk on, obsessed by, or infatuated with, the objects of the senses that you succeed in awakening, or obtain liberation. Or more succinctly: All things are disappointing, [it is] through vigilance [that] you succeed. W. Rhys Davids "Then the Blessed One addressed the brethren, and said, 'behold now, brethren, I exhort you, saying, "Decay is inherent in all component things! Work out your salvation with diligence!"'. This was the last word of the Tatha- gata. [ 43 ] Maurice Walsh Then the Lord said to the Monks: Now, monks, I declare to you: all conditions things are of a nature to decay - strive on untiringly. These were the Tatha-gata's last words. [ 44 ] Thanissaro Bhikkhu Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Now, then, monks, I exhort you: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about completion by being heedful." Those were the Tathagata's last words. [ 45 ] Sister Vajira & Francis Story And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness! [ 46 ] Nyanatiloka appama-da: 'zeal', non-laxity, earnestness, diligence, is considered as the foundation of all progress. Just as all the footprints of living beings are surpassed by the footprint of the elephant, and the footprint of the elephant is considered as the mightiest amongst them, just so have all the meritorious qualities zeal as their foundation, and zeal is considered as the mightiest of these qualities'' (A. X, 15). Cf. the Chapter on Zeal (Appama-da Vagga) in Dhp., and the Buddha's last exhortation: "Transient are all formations. Strive zealously!" (appama-dena sampa-detha: D. 16) - In the commentaries, it is often explained as the presence (lit. 'non-absence') of mindfulness (satiya- avippava-sa). A Zen Buddhist Group Appamada is a Pali word that means mindful, active care. According to the earliest recorded teachings of the Buddha, it was a common theme in his teaching and the last word that he used, encouraging his followers to fare forward with appamada—with care. He often compared appamada to an elephant's footprint, which is so large that it can contain the footprint of all the other animals. In the same way, the Buddha said, mindful, clear care contains the heart of all of his teachings. We have adopted this name for our community of practice and inquiry because it reflects not only our aspiration as teachers, but our sense of the community as a whole, and its contribution in the world. (You can read more background here.) In our teaching we draw on the Zen teachings and tradition we were trained in, as well as other Buddhist teachings and contemporary work in psychology, interpersonal neurobiology, language, the sciences, and philosophy. Stephen Batchelor http://api.ning.com/files/0lx0ksvfJtv1Pw-rW1xQCNhqa1MAb-kvMN4Yz3ED*FGVZzncTS HrWcDvdhg8VLjXKCh2ZeiAjUn6ZVALa0orVpIXuiui4I5H/AppamadaBatchelorarticle.pdf The difficulty with this term is expressed by the fact that different translators in different Buddhist traditions can’t actually agree on what is the best word in English. Some of the terms which we may have come across include vigilance, diligence, heedfulness and conscientiousness. One German translator, Ernst Steinkellner, translated it as wachsame Sorge. Wachsame means wakeful or watchful, and Sorga means something like care or concern. So watchful concern. Or watchful care. But I think it’s also more than that. Notice that it is the very last word the Buddha uttered, at least according the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta. Whether the Buddha actually said them or not (after all, we can’t really know) those around him at the time, and subsequent tradition, came to consider—or perhaps did in fact correctly remember—that this was the point the Buddha made just as he was on the verge of his own death. So clearly appama-da, both for the Buddha and for the tradition that immediately followed him, is regarded as a key. That is to say it is something to be cultivated, something to be developed, and somehow synthesizes everything he taught. "Conditions are subject to decay," he famously said. "Work out your salvation with care." #107621 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 16, 2010 7:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 15-mei-2010, om 18:31 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > N: I appreciate it so much that the Abhidhamma at every page > reminds us that there is no person, only citta, cetasika and ruupa. > > D: yes, the truth an Arahant is realizing . As we all know , > conceit , this core value of the self delusion is only abolished at > this level .. ------- N:At the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the Stream winner, the idea of self is already eradicated for good. -------- D: > For us Worldlings it means we need to work with the available state > of mind even if we got the point that the (suffering) self is > nothing but a > conditioned process of interrelated factors , as explained by DO > and in detail analysed by Abhidhamma. -------- N: It is necessary to understand at the level of pariyatti first that there is no self who is seeing now. We may repeat this phrase, but that is not enough. The characteristic of seeing, visible object, all realities that appear should gradually be understood more and more by being aware of them. That is our daily task. This is the way to gradually cling less to a self. Nina. #107622 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun May 16, 2010 10:44 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt jonoabb Hi Dieter (107594) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > D: let me start by repeating what we are talking about: > =============== Always a good start to a discussion ;-)) > =============== > According to your understanding ( of Right Effort) we cannot guide or influence the reaction of what we are conscious about and whether or not right effort arises is not something over which we have any control in the moment .. (as this would not be consistent with the (agreed) fact of cittas not being subject to ownership). > =============== Sort of. Let me explain further. Right Effort refers to the mental factor of energy (viriya) that accompanies each moment of kusala consciousness. Whether the presently arising moment of consciousness is kusala or akusala is determined by various conditions. It is not subject to control at the moment of its actual arising (how could it be?). The exertion of effort in the conventional sense is not what is being described in the texts. > =============== > vs the quotation from the suttas: snip ..'There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... etc. > 'Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise etc.' > > if we don't have any control about our reaction , above guidelines would be totally useless , wouldn't it? > =============== It depends how you read the passage. If you read it as guidelines, that is to say, as describing *things to be done* that could influence the nature of consciousness at the moment of its arising (i.e., to be kusala), then there would perhaps be a contradiction. However, if you read it as describing arisen right effort, i.e., that there is kusala citta having the effect of preventing the arising of akusala states that would otherwise arise, then there is no contradiction. I appreciate that your focus is on the words "a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent" in particular. You perhaps see this as being a direction to apply effort in the conventional sense. However, I don't think that is how the words should be read. I think here, as elsewhere in the suttas, it was understood between the Buddha and his listeners that what is being described is an impersonal process involving conditioned elements (dhammas). > =============== > by : 'it would not be consistent with the (agreed) fact of cittas not being subject to ownership)' , do you mean no ownership hence no control ? > Your assumption isn't clear to me. > =============== Yes, that's what I mean (sorry about any lack of clarity). If there is no ownership then almost by definition there cannot be control. Jon #107623 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun May 16, 2010 10:48 am Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. jonoabb Hi Alex (107595) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > While we cannot "control" things, can we influence future result? > > Example: A person who has heard about kusala/akusala things practices abstaining from as many akusala activities as possible. Doesn't that influence the future? Of course it does! > =============== All kusala and akusala moments of consciousness have 'influence' on the future in some manner or other, either as adding to an accumulated tendency or as potentially bringing result (or both). But there cannot be kusala consciousness by choice. Abstaining from perceived akusala activities may be with kusala citta or with akusala citta. It may be motivated by right view or by wrong view. It may be preceded or followed by other kinds of akusala instead. In short, abstaining as a kind of 'practice' is not what is meant by the teaching on developing kusala, in my view. > =============== > Or another example: > Person studies and considers the Dhamma. That influences the understanding faculty . > =============== This will of course depend on whether what is studied is correctly understood or not ;-)) > =============== > Or: > A person is bad at riding a bike. He can't wish or control "let me be a pro right now!". But he can practice the skill and in the future, if conditions allow, he will be much better, maybe even like a pro bicyclist. > =============== This may be true as far as riding a bike is concerned; but does it hold for the development of insight? > =============== > So effort can be done to influence understanding -> > > "Bhikkhus, one might look on equanimously at one's blazing > clothes or head, paying no attention to them, but so long as one has not yet made the breakthrough to the Four Noble Truths as they really are [attain Sotapatti], in order to make the breakthrough one should arouse extraordinary desire, make an extraordinary effort, stir up zeal and enthusiasm, be unremitting, and exercise mindfulness and clear comprehension" - SN 56.34 (4) Clothes > =============== You are drawing my attention to the words "one should arouse extraordinary desire, make an extraordinary effort, stir up zeal and enthusiasm, be unremitting, and exercise mindfulness and clear comprehension". There are many, many passage like this in the texts. As I said in my message of a short time ago to Dieter, this is not a reference to conventional effort but to impersonal, conditioned dhammas, and should be understood as such. Jon #107624 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun May 16, 2010 10:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada jonoabb Hi Howard (107600) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > ===================================== > I'm going to zero in just on this, Jon. Yes, I think that those 4 > levels constitute a not-bad break down. Of these, I consider only level 1 to be > absolute reality, with all others being conventional but with increasing > "reality" as one goes step by step from level 4 (Unreal) down to level 1 (As > real as real can be). You, I believe, accord absolute reality to both > levels 1 and 2, conventional reality to level 3, and no reality to level 4, and > so, we differ in our "reality attribution" with the primary difference at > level 2. > =============== To my understanding, there is a significant difference between levels 1 and 2 (on the one hand) and levels 3 and 4 (on the other) as regards the development of the path. Specifically, when the Buddha spoke of khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas, or of what is to be known with panna as it truly is, or of the 3 characteristics, he spoke of levels 1 and 2 things, not levels 3 and 4 things. I'd be interested to know what significance, as regards the development of the path, you see in the distinction between the different levels. Jon #107625 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 16, 2010 12:41 am Subject: The 10 Perfections Explained. bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The10 Perfect Qualities Explained: The 10 Perfect Qualities (Dasa Parami ) are: 1st Perfection: Generosity (D ana): Just as a water pot turned upside down lets all its liquid run out, and takes none of it back, so is the perfection of generosity not having the slightest remorse over what has been given away, even when sacrificing everything! 2nd Perfection: Morality (S ila): Just as a yak whose tail is caught in bush will rather die than to tear it off, so consists the perfection of morality in being meticulously careful about keeping all precepts and promises & not breaking them in any circumstance, even if being threatened with death! 3rd Perfection: Withdrawal (Nekkhamma ): Just as one imprisoned in jail does not desire anything more intensely than to get out of there, so the perfection of withdrawing renunciation consists in the longing to get out of the prison of transitory existence & having only this one wish: To spit out the impermanent, to be rid of it once and for all! 4th Perfection: Understanding (Pa?? a): Just as a monk on alms-round neglects no house, but goes to all the families without exception, so the perfection of understanding consists in leaving no gaps, leaving nothing out, & of being ready to learn from all wise people, who are more advanced, even though they may be younger than oneself. 5th Perfection: Energy (Viriya ): Just as a lion marshals his strength whether standing, going, or sitting even so does the perfection of energetic & enthusiastic effort consist in keeping on striving with initiative launching into action, that endures until fulfilment! 6th Perfection: Patience (Khanti): Just as the great earth accepts even the most disgusting things thrown onto it, so consists the perfection of patience in accepting slander, disgrace and every disrespect without aversion, enduring them, while letting them pass. 7th Perfection: Honesty (Sacca ): Just as a star never strays from its fixed orbit, so consists the perfection of honest truthfulness in not lying under any circumstances, not moving even an inch from the actual and real truth for any trivial advantage whatsoever. 8th Perfection: Determination (Adhitth ana): Just as a mountain stands immoveable even in the strongest storm and is incapable of being thrown over, so consists the perfection of determination in remaining unshakeable in one's advantageous choices and not being able to be distracted by anything when pursuing something good and beneficial. 9th Perfection: Friendliness (Mett a): Just as water refreshes and cleanses both just and unjust persons without discrimination, so does the perfection of friendliness include both friends and foes alike and doesn't display any distinction, favouritism, or partiality. 10th Perfection: Equanimity (Upekkh a): Just as the great earth remains unmoved and equanimous, avoiding like and dislike whether one throws pure or impure things onto it, even so does the perfection of equanimity consist in always remaining, calm and composed, neither being repulsed nor attracted, whether by any pain or any pleasure. Imperturbable even in strong conflicts as well as in the greatest success! Suj ata perfecting generosity by giving The Buddha his last meal before Awakening! <...> Source: Buddhavamsa II verses 117-166 (Edited Excerpt): In: Similes of the Buddha: An introduction BP 427S by Hellmuth Hecker. Tr. Ven. Khantipalo and Ven. Piyadhammo. Ed. Ven. Nyanatusita. http://www.bps.lk Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #107626 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun May 16, 2010 10:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? jonoabb Hi KenO (107606) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > KO: depending, when Buddha talks about conventional objects, it is about the understanding of the objects or the dhamma that arise with the objects. > =============== To my understanding, when the Buddha mentions conventional objects in the context of the development of awareness/insight it is not about the conventional object as conventional object, but about the dhammas 'represented by' the conventional object. For example, in the case of kayagata-sati, it's about awareness of the rupas that are taken for the body. > =============== > >I was saying that when the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta are mentioned in the suttas, it is invariably in the context of dhammas - not conventional objects - that this mention is made. > > KO: There are suttas that use conventional description to describe the three charactertistics, not necessary to confine to paramatha dhamma as the main stay. such examples are useful for the eradication of the akusala or the understanding of the dhamma. > =============== I'd be interested to see an example/some examples of what you have in mind here. Thanks. Jon #107627 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 16, 2010 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/16/2010 6:51:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Alex (107595) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > While we cannot "control" things, can we influence future result? > > Example: A person who has heard about kusala/akusala things practices abstaining from as many akusala activities as possible. Doesn't that influence the future? Of course it does! > =============== All kusala and akusala moments of consciousness have 'influence' on the future in some manner or other, either as adding to an accumulated tendency or as potentially bringing result (or both). But there cannot be kusala consciousness by choice. ================================== What of an altruistic impulse, spontaneous or following upon consideration, to refrain from harmful action, an impulse accompanied by calm, metta, clear mindfulness, and a whole bunch of other wholesome features? Is that not an instance of conditioning wholesome states "by choice"? I'm not saying that the volition is all-determining, but that it is one among a number of conditions that, together, lead to wholesome states. It sounds, Jon, like you are claiming that kamma never enters into the production of wholesome results, and that is surely false!! With metta, Howard P. S. Some teachings on kamma by the Buddha follow. ______________________________ "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It's possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm & suffering, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit & happiness, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It's possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm & suffering, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit & happiness, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" — _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ The non-doing of any evil, the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind: This is the Buddhas' teaching. — _Dhp 183_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.14.than.html#dhp-183) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "A fool is characterized by his/her actions. A wise person is characterized by his/her actions. It's through the activities of one's life that one's discernment shines. "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a fool. Which three? Bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct... "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a wise person. Which three? Good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct... "Thus, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will avoid the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a fool. We will undertake & maintain the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a wise person.' That's how you should train yourselves." — _AN 3.2_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.002.than.html) #107628 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 16, 2010 8:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/16/2010 6:52:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: I'd be interested to know what significance, as regards the development of the path, you see in the distinction between the different levels. =============================== You first! ;-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107629 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun May 16, 2010 12:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada jonoabb Hi Howard (107628) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 5/16/2010 6:52:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > I'd be interested to know what significance, as regards the development of > the path, you see in the distinction between the different levels. > =============================== > You first! ;-) > =============== I thought I had done that. In the passage of my post that precedes the paragraph you quote above I said: "To my understanding, there is a significant difference between levels 1 and 2 (on the one hand) and levels 3 and 4 (on the other) as regards the development of the path. "Specifically, when the Buddha spoke of khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas, or of what is to be known with panna as it truly is, or of the 3 characteristics, he spoke of levels 1 and 2 things, not levels 3 and 4 things." (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/107624) Your turn now! ;-)) Jon #107630 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun May 16, 2010 1:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. jonoabb Hi Howard (107627) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > ... > [J:] > All kusala and akusala moments of consciousness have 'influence' on the > future in some manner or other, either as adding to an accumulated tendency > or as potentially bringing result (or both). > > But there cannot be kusala consciousness by choice. > ================================== > [H:] What of an altruistic impulse, spontaneous or following upon > consideration, to refrain from harmful action, an impulse accompanied by calm, > metta, clear mindfulness, and a whole bunch of other wholesome features? Is that > not an instance of conditioning wholesome states "by choice"? > =============== We are perhaps using terms differently here. An impulse (whether spontaneous or following upon consideration) is not my idea of a (conscious) choice. By 'choice' I'm referring, in the context, to deliberate exertion, or a conscious effort, to 'have/have more kusala'. > =============== I'm not > saying that the volition is all-determining, but that it is one among a number > of conditions that, together, lead to wholesome states. It sounds, Jon, > like you are claiming that kamma never enters into the production of wholesome > results, and that is surely false!! > =============== Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'kamma never enters into the production of wholesome results'. Let me just say that, to my understanding, the mental factor of volition is a nama-dhamma, while conventionally understood conscious/deliberate effort is a concept. Does that clarify at all? Jon #107631 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 16, 2010 10:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/16/2010 8:58:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (107628) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 5/16/2010 6:52:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > I'd be interested to know what significance, as regards the development of > the path, you see in the distinction between the different levels. > =============================== > You first! ;-) > =============== I thought I had done that. In the passage of my post that precedes the paragraph you quote above I said: "To my understanding, there is a significant difference between levels 1 and 2 (on the one hand) and levels 3 and 4 (on the other) as regards the development of the path. "Specifically, when the Buddha spoke of khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas, or of what is to be known with panna as it truly is, or of the 3 characteristics, he spoke of levels 1 and 2 things, not levels 3 and 4 things." (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/107624) Your turn now! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ As I see it, level 1 is not known until awakening. Awakening to nibbana is the goal. The goal is reached by seeing *through* levels four, three, and two in that order (i.e., seeing through increasingly subtle levels of delusion). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon ==================================== With metta, Howard Fictional Reality of Levels 3 and 2 /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) ________________________________ /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #107632 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 16, 2010 10:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/16/2010 9:32:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (107627) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > ... > [J:] > All kusala and akusala moments of consciousness have 'influence' on the > future in some manner or other, either as adding to an accumulated tendency > or as potentially bringing result (or both). > > But there cannot be kusala consciousness by choice. > ================================== > [H:] What of an altruistic impulse, spontaneous or following upon > consideration, to refrain from harmful action, an impulse accompanied by calm, > metta, clear mindfulness, and a whole bunch of other wholesome features? Is that > not an instance of conditioning wholesome states "by choice"? > =============== We are perhaps using terms differently here. An impulse (whether spontaneous or following upon consideration) is not my idea of a (conscious) choice. By 'choice' I'm referring, in the context, to deliberate exertion, or a conscious effort, to 'have/have more kusala'. > =============== I'm not > saying that the volition is all-determining, but that it is one among a number > of conditions that, together, lead to wholesome states. It sounds, Jon, > like you are claiming that kamma never enters into the production of wholesome > results, and that is surely false!! > =============== Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'kamma never enters into the production of wholesome results'. Let me just say that, to my understanding, the mental factor of volition is a nama-dhamma, while conventionally understood conscious/deliberate effort is a concept. Does that clarify at all? -------------------------------------------------------- No. I don't know what these "deliberate efforts" you speak of are supposed to be. It seems like you are speaking of action attended by a belief in an actor. It is not something that I am speaking of. When I stand up, to take a trivial example, it is volition in action. When I intentionally refrain from causing hurt by speech it is volition in action. There need be no atta-view involved with such as these. As for your not understanding what I mean in saying that "it sounds, Jon, like you are claiming that kamma never enters into the production of wholesome results," I don't know how to improve on that by paraphrase. ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107633 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun May 16, 2010 5:13 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Dear Nina (Howard and Jon) , you wrote: At the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the Stream winner, the idea of self is already eradicated for good.' D: The stream-winner is free from the first 3 fetters , beginning with sakkaya ditthi , usually translated as personality -belief . What does that mean in respect to the eighth fetter: mana (conceit) ? ,i.e. : The (equality-) conceit (mana), the inferiority-conceit (omana) and the superiority-conceit (atimana): this threefold conceit should be overcome. For, after overcoming this threefold conceit, the monk, through the full penetration of conceit, is said to have put an end suffering" (A. VI, 49). "Those ascetics and Brahman priests who, relying on this impermanent, miserable and transitory nature of corporeality, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness, fancy: 'Better am I', or 'Equal am I', or 'Worse am I', all these imagine thus through not understanding reality" (S. XXII, 49). We may agree that conceit means here the opinion/belief of oneself 's value / self esteem , obviously a core element of the idea of self. N: It is necessary to understand at the level of pariyatti first that there is no self who is seeing now. We may repeat this phrase, but that is not enough. The characteristic of seeing, visible object, all realities that appear should gradually be understood more and more by being aware of them. That is our daily task. This is the way to gradually cling less to a self. D: we possibly agree : in this respect sakkaya ditthi may refer only to the right understanding as a forerunner (pariyatti) of Noble Path penetration (paripatti and pativedha) in order to be eradicted completedly . Right Effort of the disciple a decisive part .. You may know following (extract from an essay ) 'Satipatthana Vipassana ' by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/wheel370.html 'People who are without the training in and knowledge of insight meditation hold the view that seeing belongs to or is "self," "ego," "living entity," or "person." They believe that "seeing is I," or "I am seeing," or "I am knowing." This kind of view or belief is called sakkaya-ditthi in Pali. Sakkaya means the group of materiality (rupa) and mentality (nama) as they exist distinctively. Ditthi means a wrong view or belief. The compound word sakkaya-ditthi means a wrong view or belief in self with regard to nama and rupa, which exist in reality. For greater clarity, we will explain further the manner of holding the wrong view or belief. At the moment of seeing, the things which actually exist are the eye, the visual object (both materiality), and seeing (mentality). Nama and rupa are reality, yet people hold the view that this group of elements is self, or ego, or a living entity. They consider that "seeing is I," or "that which is seen is I," or "I see my own body." Thus this mistaken view is taking the simple act of seeing to be self, which is sakkaya-ditthi, the wrong view of self. As long as one is not free from the wrong view of self, one cannot expect to escape from the risk of falling into the miserable realms of the hells, the animals or the petas. Though one may be leading a happy life in the human or deva world by virtue of one's merits, yet one is liable to fall back into the miserable states of existence at any time, when one's demerits operate. For this reason, the Buddha pointed out that it is essential to work for the total removal of the wrong view of self: "Let a monk go forth mindfully to abandon view of self" (sakkaya-ditthippaha?aya sato bhikkhu paribbaje). To explain: though it is the wish of everyone to avoid old age, disease and death, no one can prevent their inevitable arrival. After death, rebirth follows. Rebirth in any state of existence does not depend on one's own wish. It is not possible to avoid rebirth in the hell realm, the animal realm or the realm of the petas by merely wishing for an escape. Rebirth takes place in any state of existence as the consequence of one's own deeds: there is no choice at all. For these reasons, the round of birth and death, samsara, is very dreadful. Every effort should therefore be made to acquaint oneself with the miserable conditions of samsara, and then to work for an escape from samsara, for the attainment of Nibbana. If an escape from samsara as a whole is not possible for the present, an attempt should be made for an escape at least from the round of rebirth in the hell realms, the animal realm and the peta realm. In this case it is necessary to work for the total removal within oneself of sakkaya-ditthi, which is the root cause of rebirth in the miserable states of existence. Sakkaya-ditthi can only be destroyed completely by the noble path and fruit: the three supramundane virtues of morality, concentration and wisdom. It is therefore imperative to work for the development of these virtues. How should one do the work? By means of noting or observing one must go out from the jurisdiction of defilements (kilesa). One should practice by constantly noting or observing every act of seeing, hearing, etc., which are the constituent physical and mental processes, till one is freed from sakkaya-ditthi, the wrong view of self.' with Metta Dieter #107634 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun May 16, 2010 6:41 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Jon, you wrote: (D: let me start by repeating what we are talking about) Always a good start to a discussion ;-)) D: it hopefully clarifies the differences of our understanding ..;-) J: > =============== (D: > According to your understanding ( of Right Effort) we cannot guide or influence the reaction of what we are conscious about and whether or not right effort arises is not something over which we have any control in the moment .. (as this would not be consistent with the (agreed) fact of cittas not being subject to ownership). =============== Sort of. Let me explain further. Right Effort refers to the mental factor of energy (viriya) that accompanies each moment of kusala consciousness. Whether the presently arising moment of consciousness is kusala or akusala is determined by various conditions. It is not subject to control at the moment of its actual arising (how could it be?). D: you miss the point of 'influence the reaction of what we are conscious about' , emphasizing re-action which by the fourfold right effort will show in the future moments of consciousness, i.e. previous kamma meets future kamma . Kamma Sutta (tr.by TB): Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak."Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma. And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma. "And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called the cessation of kamma."And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma."So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do - seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them - that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." J: The exertion of effort in the conventional sense is not what is being described in the texts. D: it seems to me that you are wearing ' non- conventionial sense ' - glasses , when you read the texts... J. : =============== (D: vs the quotation from the suttas: snip ..'There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... etc. > 'Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise etc.' > > if we don't have any control about our reaction , above guidelines would be totally useless , wouldn't it?) > =============== It depends how you read the passage. If you read it as guidelines, that is to say, as describing *things to be done* that could influence the nature of consciousness at the moment of its arising (i.e., to be kusala), then there would perhaps be a contradiction. However, if you read it as describing arisen right effort, i.e., that there is kusala citta having the effect of preventing the arising of akusala states that would otherwise arise, then there is no contradiction. D: the contradiction happens because of your misinterpretation. Do you have any respected source to support your view? J: I appreciate that your focus is on the words "a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent" in particular. You perhaps see this as being a direction to apply effort in the conventional sense. However, I don't think that is how the words should be read. I think here, as elsewhere in the suttas, it was understood between the Buddha and his listeners that what is being described is an impersonal process involving conditioned elements (dhammas). =============== (D: > by : 'it would not be consistent with the (agreed) fact of cittas not being subject to ownership)' , do you mean no ownership hence no control ? > Your assumption isn't clear to me.)> =============== Yes, that's what I mean (sorry about any lack of clarity). If there is no ownership then almost by definition there cannot be control. D: the point of a ' impersonal process' as described by D.O. does not give you an alibi to deny responsibility for the action/kamma here and now. If you have time , there are quite a number of essays/suttas concerning the Kamma teaching waiting .. The whole Dhamma is aimed for the benefit of the suffering being , telling what one has to do in order to end the suffering. It is up to you whether to take the prescribed medicine or not .. with Metta Dieter , #107635 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 17, 2010 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Op 16-mei-2010, om 19:13 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: D: D: we possibly agree : in this respect sakkaya ditthi may refer only to the right understanding as a forerunner (pariyatti) of Noble Path penetration (paripatti and pativedha) in order to be eradicted completedly . Right Effort of the disciple a decisive part .. -------- N: Right effort is not right effort if there is not at the same time right understanding of realities. --------- > D quotes Mahaasi Sayadaw: 'Sakkaya-ditthi can only be destroyed > completely by the noble path and fruit: the three supramundane > virtues of morality, concentration and wisdom. It is therefore > imperative to work for the development of these virtues. How should > one do the work? By means of noting or observing one must go out > from the jurisdiction of defilements (kilesa). One should practice > by constantly noting or observing every act of seeing, hearing, > etc., which are the constituent physical and mental processes, till > one is freed from sakkaya-ditthi, the wrong view of self.' -------- N: It is the word 'noting', or 'observing' that is not so clear. Observing every act of seeing or hearing, well, the question is how. When pariyatti is sufficiently developed, there are conditions for the arising of sati sampaja~n~na. These are the cetasikas sati and pa~n~naa. They cannot be directed towards certain objects, they arise and fall away according to their own conditions. When I read, 'One should practice by constantly noting or observing every act of seeing, hearing' it seems another story. But I cannot say much, since it is an article you quote. Nina. #107636 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon May 17, 2010 7:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi Ken O, --------------- <. . .> KO:?> it is not whether an object of the mind as persisting entities, it is the dhamma that arises that has the characteristics.? It is impt to differentitatte the objects and the dhamma that arise with the objects.? Whatever bhavana, it is always the dhamma that arise that matter, the object is just a conditioning paccaya but not the cause of the aksuala dhamma. ---------------- I think I see what you mean. But do you agree that a dhamma cannot be experienced except when it becomes the arammana (object of consciousness)? If a *concept of a dhamma* becomes the arammana then a dhamma can be *indirectly* experienced. But, apart from that, there can be no experiencing of a dhamma unless it becomes the arammana. ---------------------------- <. . .> KH: > . . . but, if you continue to understand listening and reading in the conventional way, you have not yet got the message! > KO:? No ordinary human being can listen without conventional way,???and understanding starts from conventional way till vipassana nana unless one panna is highly developed like Sariputta who could listen to four verse and become a sotapanna (if I am recollect correctly). ------------------------------- We are still talking at cross purposes. The conventional way of understanding 'reading' (or walking or talking or . . . anything) is not the Dhamma's way of understanding. I won't explain it again because I have already tried a thousand times. So I will just wait for you to think about it. The way of understanding taught by the Buddha is not the conventional way of understanding. ----------- KO: > Any development starts from listening which is a conventional action that take on conceptuals objects ------------ There are no conventional actions. Conventional actions are just concepts (pannatti) of actions. I don't know if there is a Pali term for them, but it might be 'pannatti-kamma.' -------------------------- <. . .> KO:?> You contradiction yourself, you said it is true that we need to listening to developing dhamma?yet there is no convention action, there are only dhammas.? Without dhamma?like cetana, would you listen.? So are you deluding yourself there is no conventional action.? Again I have said this many times, what is wrong with conventional actions, the dhamma that arise or the conventional action?itself.?? --------------------------- Sorry for being dense, but I still can't see the point you are making. ---------------- <. . .> KO: > . . .there is a method, it is all written in Visud and the texts.? Dhamma is anatta, not about control or no control.? Anatta is about no exerciseing power over dhamma because one cannot change the way dhamma work or the functions, characteristics, manifestations?and not about control or no control.?If dhamma cannot be control, then dhamam will not be able to perform its function like cetana, vittaka and chanda or panna or ditthi.? ---------------- You're a hard man to convince. When you finally do see how the world is just one citta and its object, you will change you mind about control. You will see that the concept of control has no relevance. Ken H #107637 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon May 17, 2010 8:17 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Jon , just an addition to my previous message. The question of a monk (MN 109) - " 'So - form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?' may approach you statement : 'If there is no ownership then almost by definition there cannot be control'. (a more fitting term is influence we are not talking about total control ) extract , see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.109.than.html Saying, "Very good, lord," the monk... asked him a further question: "Knowing in what way, seeing in what way, is there - with regard to this body endowed with consciousness, and with regard to all external signs - no longer any I-making, or my-making, or obsession with conceit?" "Monk, one sees any form whatsoever - past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near - every form, as it actually is with right discernment: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' "One sees any feeling whatsoever... any perception whatsoever... any fabrications whatsoever... "One sees any consciousness whatsoever - past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near - every consciousness - as it actually is with right discernment: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'" "Monk, knowing in this way, seeing in this way is there - with regard to this body endowed with consciousness, and with regard to all external signs - no longer any I-making, or my-making, or obsession with conceit." Now at that moment this line of thinking appeared in the awareness of a certain monk: "So - form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?" Then the Blessed One, realizing with his awareness the line of thinking in that monk's awareness, addressed the monks: "It's possible that a senseless person - immersed in ignorance, overcome with craving - might think that he could outsmart the Teacher's message in this way: 'So - form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?' Now, monks, haven't I trained you in counter-questioning with regard to this & that topic here & there? What do you think - Is form constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord." "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord." "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" "No, lord." "... Is feeling constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."... "... Is perception constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."... "... Are fabrications constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."... "What do you think, monks - Is consciousness constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord." "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord." "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" "No, lord." "Thus, monks, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' "Any feeling whatsoever... "Any perception whatsoever... "Any fabrications whatsoever... "Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' "Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. And while this explanation was being given, the minds of sixty monks, through no clinging (not being sustained), were fully released from fermentations. ' with Metta Dieter #107638 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 16, 2010 11:54 pm Subject: Alert Elevated Joy! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How does the Noble live in Alert Elevated Joy? The Blessed Buddha once said: How, Nandiya , does a Noble Disciple live in alert elevated joy? Here, Nandiya , any Noble Disciple is endowed with verified conviction in the Buddha thus: Worthy, honourable & perfectly self-Enlightened is the Buddha! Not satisfied with that verified conviction in the Buddha , he makes a further effort in solitude by day and by seclusion at night! When thus enthusiastic, he is elevated by alertness! When thus elevated by alertness, then gladness is born! When he is gladdened, then a rapturous joy arises! When the mind is uplifted by joy, the body becomes all tranquil... One tranquil in body experiences a pure bliss of sweet happiness! The mind of one who is thus happy becomes condensed and concentrated... When mind is concentrated, even subtle phenomena become plain and simple. Since these subtle phenomena become plain and simple, he becomes one, who lives and dwells always rejoicing in alert elevated joy... <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:398] Section 55 on Stream-Entry: Sotapattisamyutta. Thread 40: Nandiya. Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #107639 From: Ken O Date: Mon May 17, 2010 2:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ashkenn2k Dear Jon Dear Jon > >To my understanding, when the Buddha mentions conventional objects in the context of the development of awareness/insight it is not about the conventional object as conventional object, but about the dhammas 'represented by' the conventional object. > >For example, in the case of kayagata-sati, it's about awareness of the rupas that are taken for the body. KO:? Nope, in Visud and Dispeller of Delusion, it is using concepts as the basis of comtemplation.? ? >> =============== > >I'd be interested to see an example/some examples of what you have in mind here. Thanks. > KO:? Definitely there are plenty around, but this is a good read.??http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel021.html cheers Ken O #107640 From: Ken O Date: Mon May 17, 2010 2:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ashkenn2k Dear Ken H > >I think I see what you mean. But do you agree that a dhamma cannot be experienced except when it becomes the arammana (object of consciousness)? If a *concept of a dhamma* becomes the arammana then a dhamma can be *indirectly* experienced. But, apart from that, there can be no experiencing of a dhamma unless it becomes the arammana. KO:? The citta in the mental process can experience any objects.?It is not whether what objects that comes to the citta, object does not experience anything. It is the nama that arise that experience the objects.? It is the dhamma that arise that experience an object that matters.? for example when seeing rupa is an object of the javana process, it is panna that understand it as not self and not the seeing.??the object could be thinking object like a beautiful object, panna can just arise to understand it as unsatisfactory or leading to suffering or not self.? It is not the beautiful object or seeing rupa that is anatta, it is the panna that penetrates the meaning of the object that arise with the citta. >We are still talking at cross purposes. The conventional way of understanding 'reading' (or walking or talking or . . . anything) is not the Dhamma's way of understanding. > >I won't explain it again because I have already tried a thousand times. So I will just wait for you to think about it. The way of understanding taught by the Buddha is not the conventional way of understanding. KO:? We cannot claim lean to?walk without first learn to crawl unless one is a Buddha.? so could one?be straightaway?knows vipassana nana without first develop the understanding at the conventional level. ? The way of the Buddha is not not about whether it is conventional or ultimate, it is about the development of the understanding of dhamma.? >----------- >KO: > Any development starts from listening which is a conventional action that take on conceptuals objects >------------ > >There are no conventional actions. Conventional actions are just concepts (pannatti) of actions. I don't know if there is a Pali term for them, but it might be 'pannatti-kamma.' > KO:? If there is no conventional actions, why are you listening to dhamma then, you should not do conceptual actions then.? >--------------------------- > >Sorry for being dense, but I still can't see the point you are making. > KO:? then you have to read more of my posts :-) >---------------- >You're a hard man to convince. When you finally do see how the world is just one citta and its object, you will change you mind about control. You will see that the concept of control has no relevance. KO:? Nope, the development of anatta or understanding of dhamma, is never in the first place about control or no control.? If it is, Buddha will have said it.? Dhamma by itself is already not self, whether one control or not, it is still not self.? Because I understand that?dhamma is not about concept vs dhamma, it is about understanding dhamma.? It is not about action vs non action, because there is dhamma that acts.?? It boils down to just one word, dhamma.? Nothing else matters. Object does not matter. it is the dhamma that matters. cheers Ken O #107641 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon May 17, 2010 5:09 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: N: Right effort is not right effort if there is not at the same time right understanding of realities. D: MN 117 (see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html) "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities - right view, right effort, & right mindfulness - run & circle around right view.' by realities you mean the nature of dhammas in respect to anicca, dukkha and anatta, don't you? N: It is the word 'noting', or 'observing' that is not so clear. Observing every act of seeing or hearing, well, the question is how. When pariyatti is sufficiently developed, there are conditions for the arising of sati sampaja~n~na. These are the cetasikas sati and pa~n~naa. They cannot be directed towards certain objects, they arise and fall away according to their own conditions. When I read, 'One should practice by constantly noting or observing every act of seeing, hearing' it seems another story. But I cannot say much, since it is an article you quote.' D: it is a published form of a discourse , in which the Venerable Mahasi approached Satipatthana . Quite popular in Buddhist circles. If you have time , please read the text in full .. I quoted it because of its reference to sakkaya ditthi (and the assumption you may find some familarities ...) with Metta Dieter #107642 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 17, 2010 6:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada jonoabb Hi Howard (107631) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > As I see it, level 1 is not known until awakening. Awakening to > nibbana is the goal. > =============== Agreed. Nibbana does not become the object of consciousness until the first path moment. > =============== The goal is reached by seeing *through* levels four, three, > and two in that order (i.e., seeing through increasingly subtle levels of > delusion). > =============== To my understanding, it is the seeing of level 2 things as they really are (including as anicca, dukkha and anatta) that is the development of the path. I'm not sure what seeing *through* level 2 things would involve; that's an idea that I've not come across in the texts. What would be the object of consciousness at such moments? As regards levels 1 and 2 things, the distinction between concepts and namas and rupas becomes clearer as the understanding of the latter is developed, but other than this I don't think these feature directly in the development of the path. > =============== > Fictional Reality of Levels 3 and 2 > > /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, > like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none ?" such a > seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out > skin./ > > /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: > "This is all unreal," ?" such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as > a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ > > (From the Uraga Sutta ) > =============== I understand the Buddha here to be talking about level 2 things ('dhammas'). References to "the world" are generally to be read as references to the world of the 6 senses (much as references to "the body" are to be read as references to rupas). > =============== > /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; > fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick ?" this has been > taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately > examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ > > (From the Phena Sutta) > =============== Here the reference is clearly to the 5 khandhas (level 2 things). Jon #107643 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 17, 2010 6:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. jonoabb Hi Howard (107632) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > No. I don't know what these "deliberate efforts" you speak of are > supposed to be. It seems like you are speaking of action attended by a belief > in an actor. It is not something that I am speaking of. When I stand up, to > take a trivial example, it is volition in action. When I intentionally > refrain from causing hurt by speech it is volition in action. There need be no > atta-view involved with such as these. > =============== Right. Deliberate or conscious action -- such as writing or reading this message, for example -- need not and generally does not involve an idea of self. (This is one of those perennial straw men that I periodically have to clarify ;-)). So let's not be distracted any further by that.) I was simply saying that an impulse, and especially a spontaneous one, cannot be regarded as an instance of the exercise of choice, at least not as I use the terms 'impulse' and 'choice' (but you may be using them differently). Jon #107644 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 17, 2010 6:34 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt jonoabb Hi Dieter (107634) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > D: you miss the point of 'influence the reaction of what we are conscious about' , emphasizing re-action which by the fourfold right effort will show in the future moments of consciousness, i.e. previous kamma meets future kamma . > =============== It might be helpful if we could discuss a specific example/instance. What would be an instance of right effort as one writes or reads this message, according to your understanding of the teaching on the fourfold right effort? Now coming to your point of 'influence the reaction of what we are conscious about'. Speaking in the conventional sense, when strong akusala of some kind is noticed we can make a conscious effort to have that akusala subside, perhaps by reminding ourselves of the dangers of akusala etc. This is conventional 'deliberate effort', a concept, rather than the momentary mental factor spoken of by the Buddha (as I understand the teachings). What the Buddha is describing is actual kusala of the moment. Conventional 'deliberate effort' sometimes 'works' and sometimes doesn't. > =============== > Kamma Sutta (tr.by TB): > Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. ... > =============== (Sutta quote snipped for now) > =============== > D: it seems to me that you are wearing ' non- conventionial sense ' - glasses , when you read the texts... > =============== ;-)) In a sense you are correct. It would be a mistake to read the suttas without realising that the world being described by the Buddha is a vastly different one from the world as we know it. > =============== > However, if you read it as describing arisen right effort, i.e., that there is kusala citta having the effect of preventing the arising of akusala states that would otherwise arise, then there is no contradiction. > > D: the contradiction happens because of your misinterpretation. > Do you have any respected source to support your view? > =============== I don't have any references to commentarial material on the 4 right efforts handy, but will get back to you if I come across any. > =============== > D: the point of a ' impersonal process' as described by D.O. does not give you an alibi to deny responsibility for the action/kamma here and now. > =============== I'm not really sure what you mean by "deny[ing] responsibility for the action/kamma here and now", but if you read me as denying action/kamma in the present moment then you're reading me wrongly ;-)) > =============== > The whole Dhamma is aimed for the benefit of the suffering being , telling what one has to do in order to end the suffering. > It is up to you whether to take the prescribed medicine or not .. > =============== In studying the teachings (as we do here, for example), reflecting on what has been understood and relating it to the present moment, we are taking the prescribed medicine. Jon #107645 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 17, 2010 6:39 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt jonoabb Hi Dieter (107637) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Jon , > > just an addition to my previous message. > The question of a monk (MN 109) - " 'So - form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?' may approach you statement : 'If there is no ownership then almost by definition there cannot be control'. (a more fitting term is influence we are not talking about total control ) > =============== Let's talk a little more about that statement. Put in full, it says that if dhammas are not subject to ownership, then dhammas cannot be influenced/controlled by a supposed owner. In other words, the statement does not deny that dhammas are influenced by other dhammas. It denies the idea that a person as 'owner' of (a particular set of) dhammas can influence or control what dhammas are going to arise in the immediate or near future. As an analogy, it is similar to the question of whether there can be influence or control over the sense-door experiences of the immediate or near future (i.e., whether they will be pleasant or not). In a conventional sense of course it can be said that there can be such influence. But in terms of the teachings, we understand that the sense-door experiences are the result of kamma (as well as being conditioned by other more immediate factors) and so any perception of ability to influence or control is, ultimately, illusory. So to return to the statement. Dhammas are conditioned by other dhammas both present and past, no question. But the apparent connection between present deliberate effort on our part and the matter of whether the coming moments of consciousness are kusala instead of the present akusala is illusory. Of course, if there is truly kusala reflection in the midst of strong akusala (quite possible, in my view), then there is kusala and that is right effort at that moment, regardless of whether there is any perceptible diminution of the strength of the surrounding akusala. > =============== > extract , see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.109.than.html > Saying, "Very good, lord," the monk... asked him a further question: "Knowing in what way, seeing in what way, is there - with regard to this body endowed with consciousness, and with regard to all external signs - no longer any I-making, or my-making, or obsession with conceit?" ... > =============== Thanks for the sutta quote. I have snipped it for the moment; we can come back to it later if you'd like to discuss. Jon #107646 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon May 17, 2010 7:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. truth_aerator Hi Jon, KenH, all, > Right. Deliberate or conscious action -- such as writing or reading >this message, for example -- need not and generally does not involve >an idea of self. Same with proper meditation which was often preached and taught by The Buddha. He wouldn't mention anapanasati and other meditations so often or at all, if it went against his Teaching. With metta, Alex #107647 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 17, 2010 3:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/17/2010 2:23:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (107631) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > As I see it, level 1 is not known until awakening. Awakening to > nibbana is the goal. > =============== Agreed. Nibbana does not become the object of consciousness until the first path moment. > =============== The goal is reached by seeing *through* levels four, three, > and two in that order (i.e., seeing through increasingly subtle levels of > delusion). > =============== To my understanding, it is the seeing of level 2 things as they really are (including as anicca, dukkha and anatta) that is the development of the path. I'm not sure what seeing *through* level 2 things would involve; that's an idea that I've not come across in the texts. What would be the object of consciousness at such moments? ----------------------------------------------------------- Seeing through the conditioned (so-called) paramattha dhammas would consist of directly seeing their impermanent, unsatisfactory, impersonal, contingent, and not-self nature. ------------------------------------------------------------ As regards levels 1 and 2 things, the distinction between concepts and namas and rupas becomes clearer as the understanding of the latter is developed, but other than this I don't think these feature directly in the development of the path. > =============== > Fictional Reality of Levels 3 and 2 > > /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, > like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none â€" such a > seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out > skin./ > > /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: > "This is all unreal," â€" such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as > a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ > > (From the Uraga Sutta ) > =============== I understand the Buddha here to be talking about level 2 things ('dhammas'). References to "the world" are generally to be read as references to the world of the 6 senses (much as references to "the body" are to be read as references to rupas). > =============== > /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; > fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick â€" this has been > taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately > examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ > > (From the Phena Sutta) > =============== Here the reference is clearly to the 5 khandhas (level 2 things). Jon ================================= With metta, Howard Emptiness of Consciousness and Object /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) #107648 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 17, 2010 11:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? jonoabb Hi KenO (107639) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > ... > >For example, in the case of kayagata-sati, it's about awareness of the rupas that are taken for the body. > > KO: Nope, in Visud and Dispeller of Delusion, it is using concepts as the basis of comtemplation. > =============== Do you mean it proposes contemplation of concepts as being the development of awareness/insight? I don't think so. Perhaps you could provide an example from either of those texts. Thanks. > =============== > >I'd be interested to see an example/some examples of what you have in mind here. Thanks. > > > KO: Definitely there are plenty around, but this is a good read. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel021.html > =============== This sutta (The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, MN20) is mainly about the development of samatha/jhana ("higher consciousness") as a basis for attaining enlightenment. I do not see in it any reference to concepts as object for the development of awareness/insight. Please let me know which particular passage in the sutta you have in mind. Thanks. Jon #107649 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue May 18, 2010 1:09 am Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. kenhowardau Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Jon, KenH, all, > > > > Right. Deliberate or conscious action -- such as writing or > > reading this message, for example -- need not and generally does > > not involve an idea of self. > > > Same with proper meditation which was often preached and taught by > The Buddha. ------------ Actually, it is not the same. The Buddha taught "the Dhamma" which translates as "the way things are." Put simply, the way things are is as follows: An object is appearing to one of six possible types of consciousness (each of which is supported by a physical base): contact is occurring between them and so too is the feeling that is dependent on contact. Like it or not, Alex, that is the Dhamma. That is the way things are according to the Buddha. ----------- A: > He wouldn't mention anapanasati and other meditations so often or at all, if it went against his Teaching. ----------- He mentioned all kinds of things. He did so in order to use them as descriptions (similes and metaphors etc) for the different kinds of consciousness, mental factors and rupas that can arise. That's all there is to the Dhamma - right understanding of the namas and rupas that are appearing now. You, however, insist the Buddha taught a conventional reality in which you and other people were journeying towards a spiritual goal of some kind. That is the teaching of all other religions and philosophies, but it is not the teaching of the Buddha. Ken H #107650 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue May 18, 2010 12:31 am Subject: The 7 Latent Tendencies! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: There are these seven Latent Tendencies (Anusaya): The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these seven kinds of Latent Tendency. What seven? 1: The Latent Tendency to Sensual-Pleasure... 2: The Latent Tendency to Aversion & Ill-Will... 3: The Latent Tendency to Speculative Views? 4: The Latent Tendency to Skeptical Doubt? 5: The Latent Tendency to Conceiving ?I Am?? 6: The Latent Tendency to Wanting to Become? 7: The Latent Tendency to Ignorance? These are the seven kinds of Latent Tendency! The Noble 8-fold Way should be developed for the direct experience of these seven kinds of Latent Tendency, for the full understanding and elimination of them, and for their final overcoming, abandoning and leaving all behind?This Noble 8-fold Way is developed for the sake of the uprooting of all detrimental Latent Mental Tendency! Explanation: Latent Tendency towards Pleasurable sights, sounds, smells, flavours, touches, & thoughts is fairly obvious? Latent Tendency to Aversion is all hate, anger, irritation, opposition, resistance, rigidity and stubbornness? Latent Tendency to Speculative Views is believing that action has no future effects & rituals are purifying? Latent Tendency to Skeptical Doubt is the lack of Faith and conviction in the Buddha?s Enlightenment? Latent Tendency to Conceiving ?I Am? is assuming the hidden existence of a constant core identity: ?I-Me?? Latent Tendency to Lust for Becoming is the hoping for a future existence as this or that kind of being? Latent Tendency to Ignorance is not seeing, not understanding, and not knowing the Four Noble Truths? Latent Tendency means lurking liability, hidden inclination, underlying readiness, a recurring dormant drive! Buddha once emphasized a crucial Impossibility: That a person, without eliminating the latent tendency to lust for any pleasant feeling, without abolishing the latent tendency to aversion towards any painful feeling, without uprooting the latent tendency to neglect and ignorance accompanying any neutral feeling, without extirpating ignorance & developing clear & complete understanding, should ever, here & now, in this very life, be able to cease all suffering & awaken by enlightenment, that is indeed impossible? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn148.html <...> Any Latent Tendency is always ready to Raise, Bite & Kill! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:60] section 45: The Way. 175: The 7 Latent Tendencies ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #107651 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue May 18, 2010 2:02 am Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, > Hi Alex, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon, KenH, all, > > > > > > > Right. Deliberate or conscious action -- such as writing or > > > reading this message, for example -- need not and generally does > > > not involve an idea of self. > > > > > > Same with proper meditation which was often preached and taught by > > The Buddha. > ------------ > > Actually, it is not the same. The Buddha taught "the Dhamma" which translates as "the way things are." Put simply, the way things are is as follows: > > An object is appearing to one of six possible types of >consciousness (each of which is supported by a physical base): >contact is occurring between them and so too is the feeling that is >dependent on contact. I agree with the above. When meditation happens, within the tranquil mind, one can see the above clearer. > > Like it or not, Alex, that is the Dhamma. That is the way things >are according to the Buddha. And samadhi is the proximate cause of seeing things as they are. See Upanisa sutta. > ----------- > A: > He wouldn't mention anapanasati and other meditations so often or at all, if it went against his Teaching. > ----------- > > He mentioned all kinds of things. He did so in order to use them as >descriptions (similes and metaphors etc) for the different kinds of >consciousness, mental factors and rupas that can arise. But the suttas, the commentaries are clear that those are instructions TO BE DONE. I am not very happy when EVERY sutta passage where the Buddha uses present-active and imperative verbs, some people twist into past-passive verbs. Is there any sutta or any commentary that states that ALL Buddha's instructions (including anapanasati, 32 bodyparts, etc) are merely descriptions rather than prescription "to be done"? > > That's all there is to the Dhamma - right understanding of the >namas and rupas that are appearing now. Right. And that happens most vividly during meditation, with hindrances suppressed and mind calm enough to be able to see to the bottom of things. > > You, however, insist the Buddha taught a conventional reality And "ultimate phenomena" as well. However one type of analysis does not need to refute the other. They are complimentary. Trains do exist in a conventional way and one better not conventionally stand in its way... :) Don't drive into Trees at 100 km/h. Even though they don't have "ultimate" existence, I don't recommend you driving into one... With metta, Alex #107652 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Tue May 18, 2010 2:27 am Subject: Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sukinderpal Hi Ken, >> KO: apple is a concept definitely. so does breathing >> meditation. So does that mean the very idea of breathing meditiaton >> is papanca or the dhamma that arise with it. >> > >Sukin: Sure it is all about dhammas arising to perform their functions >and falling away. And when I state that the idea of 'meditation' as put >forward by you and others is wrong, this is not pointing to any >characteristic of concepts, they after all have none, but to the wrong >view behind the conceiving of the idea. ;-) KO: are you saying what is written in the Visud like reciting verbally and mentally is wrong. S: What I’m saying is that those things are not to be seen as ‘methods’ to follow. It was not the intention of Buddhaghosa to have readers take what he wrote as prescriptions to follow. Because what they are, although expressed by way of conventional examples, is in fact descriptions of characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause of ultimate realities. ========= KO: It is using concepts as a conditional factor for the understanding of dhamma. S: Concepts have no conditioning power beyond being the object of citta and when they are said to be NDSC as in ‘reminder’ for kusala with or without panna; it is the underlying dhammas which are involved in the act of conditioning. Do you agree with this? ========= KO: So what is wrong., the idea of the meditation, the meditation itself or the method or the aksuala dhamma that arise be clear in your explanation because you are mixing dhamma with concepts. S: If ‘meditation’ is taken to refer to something other than a particular kind of citta, then we very likely go wrong. To think that there is a method which can be followed in order that certain kinds of citta can be made to arise and develop is to take certain concepts / conventional reality for what meditation is. And this is wrong and misleading. In fact there being never a need to go beyond the present moment, be this in the development of samatha or vipassana, the very conceiving of meditation or practice as is done, must be reflection at a particular instance, of papanca either of ditthi or tanha. Metta, Sukinder #107653 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Tue May 18, 2010 3:41 am Subject: Re: One step at a time, one citta at a time.... glenjohnann Hi Sarah yes, what a surprise! I hope it is a good and happy move - that is once all of the work is done. Good luck with it all. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > Op 15-mei-2010, om 12:51 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > > > Now we'll be moving to the beach in Manly, Sydney sometime in June! > > A week ago, we had no plan for this at all at this time:) Gain, > > loss, good fortune, bad fortune, moment to moment..... pleasant, > > unpleasant visible object....we never know what kamma has been > > accumulated! > ------- > #107654 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 18, 2010 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 17-mei-2010, om 19:09 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > N: Right effort is not right effort if there is not at the same > time right understanding of realities. --------- > > D: by realities you mean the nature of dhammas in respect to > anicca, dukkha and anatta, don't you? -------- N: Seeing, visible object, thinking on account of what is seen, any reality appearing one at a time through one of the six doors. As to the three general characteristics of realities, these cannot be penetrated yet so long as naama is not seen as naama and ruupa as ruupa. Seeing and thinking of what is seen are different realities but we usually mix these. They are not clearly distinguished. It seems that we see a person, but through eyesense only colour or visible object is seen. Nina. #107655 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue May 18, 2010 3:33 pm Subject: Buddha's instructions are "things to-do" truth_aerator Hello Sukinder, KenH, all, Where does Buddhaghosa says that all that he wrote (lets say about 32 parts recitation) is a description and not a method? The VsM is clear that these things are to be done, and not just once, for some it takes month of verbal recitation. Where does the Buddha states that despite all his active-present and imperative verbs, they must be taken as past-passive "just happens" descriptions? It seems impossible to hold a reasonable dialogue with someone who always restates active-present and imperative verbs as past-passive descriptions. It seems like modifying the Buddha's teaching... Another thing: Just like anything, meditation can be done with or without wrong views. If one rejects meditation solely on the basis of "it is doing something, to alter something" then same could be said about studying and considering... It is setting up causes and conditions for future panna, and it is removing avijja bit by bit... Maybe one shouldn't vaccum the room, because it is doing something, it is altering something... Maybe one shouldn't put any cloth on. It is unnatural (we weren't born with clothes) and something "to be done"... With metta, Alex #107656 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue May 18, 2010 4:30 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. moellerdieter Hi Jon and Howard, you wrote: (H: No. I don't know what these "deliberate efforts" you speak of are > supposed to be. It seems like you are speaking of action attended by a belief > in an actor. It is not something that I am speaking of. When I stand up, to > take a trivial example, it is volition in action. When I intentionally > refrain from causing hurt by speech it is volition in action. There need be no > atta-view involved with such as these. ) > =============== J: Right. Deliberate or conscious action -- such as writing or reading this message, for example -- need not and generally does not involve an idea of self. (This is one of those perennial straw men that I periodically have to clarify ;-)). So let's not be distracted any further by that.) I was simply saying that an impulse, and especially a spontaneous one, cannot be regarded as an instance of the exercise of choice, at least not as I use the terms 'impulse' and 'choice' (but you may be using them differently). D: right effort, guarding the senses , restraint of the senses serves the purpose for a wholesome exercise of choise/ direction instead of following spontaneously impulses, doesn't it? with Metta Dieter #107657 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue May 18, 2010 5:56 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Jon (and Howard), you wrote: 'Let's talk a little more about that statement. Put in full, it says that if dhammas are not subject to ownership, then dhammas cannot be influenced/controlled by a supposed owner. In other words, the statement does not deny that dhammas are influenced by other dhammas. It denies the idea that a person as 'owner' of (a particular set of) dhammas can influence or control what dhammas are going to arise in the immediate or near future. As an analogy, it is similar to the question of whether there can be influence or control over the sense-door experiences of the immediate or near future (i.e., whether they will be pleasant or not). In a conventional sense of course it can be said that there can be such influence. But in terms of the teachings, we understand that the sense-door experiences are the result of kamma (as well as being conditioned by other more immediate factors) and so any perception of ability to influence or control is, ultimately, illusory. So to return to the statement. Dhammas are conditioned by other dhammas both present and past, no question. But the apparent connection between present deliberate effort on our part and the matter of whether the coming moments of consciousness are kusala instead of the present akusala is illusory. Of course, if there is truly kusala reflection in the midst of strong akusala (quite possible, in my view), then there is kusala and that is right effort at that moment, regardless of whether there is any perceptible diminution of the strength of the surrounding akusala. D: I have some difficulties to bring your last sentence in line with what you said before. Control over the immediate six door experience is 'ultimately illusory' , but influence of future Cittas by what you called 'truly kusala reflection ', i.e. the guideline of the 4 efforts , isn't. By that we would agree . Regarding the statement 'if dhammas are not subject to ownership, then dhammas cannot be influenced/controlled by a supposed owner' : The dhammas we know of , are limited to the 6 senses consciousnes , this 'all' is -as we learn from D.O. -conditioned by ignorant volition/will,kamma force (avijja/sankhara ) presenting our accumulated past. Avijja /Moha includes the delusion of self/I , which conditions the links of the D.O. chain , including the choice of sankhara khanda and the trap of the vedana-tanha-upadana connection. Though the delusion exists (until ignorance isn't abandoned), there is no substance, no ownership to be found. In other words the suffering being or person is represented by D.O. J: (D: > extract , see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.109.than.html > Saying, "Very good, lord," the monk... asked him a further question: "Knowing in what way, seeing in what way, is there - with regard to this body endowed with consciousness, and with regard to all external signs - no longer any I-making, or my-making, or obsession with conceit?" ... > =============== Thanks for the sutta quote. I have snipped it for the moment; we can come back to it later if you'd like to discuss. D: above quote must be read /contemplated in context : "Monk, knowing in this way, seeing in this way is there - with regard to this body endowed with consciousness, and with regard to all external signs - no longer any I-making, or my-making, or obsession with conceit." Now at that moment this line of thinking appeared in the awareness of a certain monk: "So - form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?" Then the Blessed One, realizing with his awareness the line of thinking in that monk's awareness, addressed the monks: "It's possible that a senseless person - immersed in ignorance, overcome with craving - might think that he could outsmart the Teacher's message in this way: 'So - form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?' Now, monks, haven't I trained you in counter-questioning with regard to this & that topic here & there? What do you think - Is form constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord." "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord." "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" no intention from my side to discuss it further with Metta Dieter #107658 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue May 18, 2010 6:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. jonoabb Hi Alex (107646) > > [J:] Right. Deliberate or conscious action -- such as writing or reading >this message, for example -- need not and generally does not involve >an idea of self. > > > [A:] Same with proper meditation which was often preached and taught by The Buddha. > =============== J: In the case of bhavana (mental development), it's a matter of what exactly was the teaching of the Buddha. If that development, properly understood, does not involve any particular kind of deliberate/conscious action, then obviously deliberate/conscious action undertaken as part of a practice of bhavana would be motivated by wrong view. > =============== He wouldn't mention anapanasati and other meditations so often or at all, if it went against his Teaching. > =============== J: Of course, nobody is saying that samatha bhavana with breath as object - anapanasati - involves an idea of self (give me a break, Alex!!). It is kusala of a very high degree. However, as mentioned above, any 'practice' that is in fact wrong practice is another matter altogether. Jon #107659 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue May 18, 2010 6:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada jonoabb Hi Howard (107647) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > [J:] I'm not sure what seeing *through* level 2 things would involve; that's an > idea that I've not come across in the texts. What would be the object of > consciousness at such moments? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > [H:] Seeing through the conditioned (so-called) paramattha dhammas would > consist of directly seeing their impermanent, unsatisfactory, impersonal, > contingent, and not-self nature. > =============== J: Yes, in other words, seeing the paramattha dhammas as they truly are (the dhammas would be the object of consciousness at such moments, I believe). This, to my understanding, is what the development of the path is all about. It is only through directly seeing the unsatisfactory, impersonal nature of dhammas that enlightenment can be attained. I do not find in the teachings any similar role for concepts as object of consciousness in the development of the path (there is, after all, nothing there to be seen/seen through). Jon #107660 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue May 18, 2010 6:08 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. jonoabb Hi Dieter (107656) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > J: I was simply saying that an impulse, and especially a spontaneous one, cannot be regarded as an instance of the exercise of choice, at least not as I use the terms 'impulse' and 'choice' (but you may be using them differently). > > D: right effort, guarding the senses , restraint of the senses serves the purpose for a wholesome exercise of choise/ direction instead of following spontaneously impulses, doesn't it? > =============== Thanks for this comment. There is much in it that I agree with. But I think Howard's point to me was different. He says that a spontaneous kusala impulse is an instance of conditioning wholesome states "by choice" (see message #107627). That I could not quite follow. Regarding your own comments, I agree it could be said that right effort, guarding the senses and restraint serve the purpose of exercising choice (wholesome choice, of course). That's because, as I see it, right effort, guarding the senses and restraint are terms designating mere impersonal dhammas (specifically the dhammas of viriya (energy), sati (awareness) and samma-kammanta (right action)), and they either arise or they don't depending on conditions. There is no actual choice involved. You perhaps have a different scenario in mind, where there is a deliberate choice/decision/resolve not to give in to the impulse to do something akusala. We are all familiar with such a situation; but we also know from experience that the motivation at such times is usually quite mixed, with varying degrees of both kusala and akusala involved. When the Buddha refers to right effort, guarding the senses and restraint he is, to my understanding, referring only to the kusala moments involved in such situations. Jon #107661 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue May 18, 2010 6:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. truth_aerator Hi Jon, KenH, all, > > > [J:] Right. Deliberate or conscious action -- such as writing >or reading >this message, for example -- need not and generally does >not involve >an idea of self. > > > > > > [A:] Same with proper meditation which was often preached and >taught by The Buddha. > > =============== > > J: In the case of bhavana (mental development), it's a matter of >what exactly was the teaching of the Buddha. If that development, >properly understood, does not involve any particular kind of >deliberate/conscious action, then obviously deliberate/conscious >action undertaken as part of a practice of bhavana would be >motivated by wrong view. > > it starts with: "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit? "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. [1] Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html Ptsm Treatise On Anapanasati says: 186. Forest: having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest. 187. Root of a tree: where the bhikkhu's seat is prepared, or his bed or his chair or his mattress or his mat or his piece of hide or his spread of grass or his spread of leaves, or his spread of straw, there he walks or stands or sits or lies down. 188. Empty: unfrequented by laymen or by those gone forth into homelessness. 189. Place: dwelling, lean-to, mansion, villa, cave. 190. Sits down; having folded his legs crosswise: he is seated, having folded his legs crosswise. 191. Set his body erect: his body is erect, [firmly] placed, properly disposed. 192. Established mindfulness in front of him (parimukham satim upatthapetva): pari has the sense of embracing; mukham (lit. mouth) has the sense of outlet; sati (mindfulness) has the sense of establishment (foundation). Hence parimukham satim upatthapetva (established mindfulness in front of him)' is said. ======================== With metta, Alex #107662 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 18, 2010 3:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/18/2010 2:07:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (107647) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > [J:] I'm not sure what seeing *through* level 2 things would involve; that's an > idea that I've not come across in the texts. What would be the object of > consciousness at such moments? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > [H:] Seeing through the conditioned (so-called) paramattha dhammas would > consist of directly seeing their impermanent, unsatisfactory, impersonal, > contingent, and not-self nature. > =============== J: Yes, in other words, seeing the paramattha dhammas as they truly are (the dhammas would be the object of consciousness at such moments, I believe). This, to my understanding, is what the development of the path is all about. It is only through directly seeing the unsatisfactory, impersonal nature of dhammas that enlightenment can be attained. I do not find in the teachings any similar role for concepts as object of consciousness in the development of the path (there is, after all, nothing there to be seen/seen through). ---------------------------------------------------------- You believe that there is nothing to be seen through, but you do not know that. Seeing through concepts is seeing their merely conventional status. And if one does not see through macroscopic concepts, the alleged objects of this world - people, car, trees, etc, the grossest (i.e., least subtle) of our concoctions, then there is no hope at all of awakening. ------------------------------------------------------ Jon =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107663 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed May 19, 2010 12:01 am Subject: Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ------------ <. . .> KH: > > I think I see what you mean. But do you agree that a dhamma cannot be experienced except when it becomes the arammana (object of consciousness)? If a *concept of a dhamma* becomes the arammana then a dhamma can be *indirectly* experienced. But, apart from that, there can be no experiencing of a dhamma unless it becomes the arammana. KO:?> The citta in the mental process can experience any objects.?It is not whether what objects that comes to the citta, object does not experience anything. It is the nama that arise that experience the objects.? ------------- Correct me if I am wrong but I think you are saying that right understanding is important, and it doesn't matter what the object of right understanding is. ------------------- KO: > It is the dhamma that arise that experience an object that matters.? for example when seeing rupa is an object of the javana process, it is panna that understand it as not self and not the seeing.??the object could be thinking object like a beautiful object, panna can just arise to understand it as unsatisfactory or leading to suffering or not self.? -------------------- I don't know why panna would understand the concept of a beautiful object as being not beautiful. Take, for example, the concept of perfect happiness in what way is that not beautiful? ---------------------------- KO: > It is not the beautiful object or seeing rupa that is anatta, ----------------------------- The concept of a beautiful object might not be anatta, but visible rupa certainly is. -------------------------------- KO: > it is the panna that penetrates the meaning of the object that arise with the citta. -------------------------------- Panna is anatta, but the anatta of panna can be known *only if and when* panna becomes the object of consciousness. ------------------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > The way of understanding taught by the Buddha is not the conventional way of understanding. KO:?> We cannot claim learn to?walk without first learn to crawl unless one is a Buddha.? so could one?be straightaway?knows vipassana nana without first develop the understanding at the conventional level. ? The way of the Buddha is not not about whether it is conventional or ultimate, it is about the development of the understanding of dhamma.? -------------------------------------- Anyone who doesn't know the difference between conventional and ultimate (concept and reality) can't even begin to know what a conditioned dhamma is. ----------------------- <. . . > KO:?> If there is no conventional actions, why are you listening to dhamma then, you should not do conceptual actions then.? ------------------------ You are not listening, Ken: there are no conventional things. There are only dhammas. (Whether we believe in them or not, there are always only dhammas.) You say I am doing conventional things (reading and writing) but, in reality, there is no me, no reading, and no writing. There are only a few namas and rupas, arising and falling in one of the six worlds. ----------------------------------------- KH : > >Sorry for being dense, but I still can't see the point you are making. KO: >? then you have to read more of my posts :-) ------------------------------------------ Ha, if it were only that easy! :-) How many times, for example, has there been a post to DSG on the difference between concepts and realities? And still hardly anyone gets it! -------------------------------------------- <. . .> KO: > . . . the development of anatta or understanding of dhamma, is never in the first place about control or no control.? If it is, Buddha will have said it.? -------------------------------------------- The Buddha said all dhammas were anatta. That changes everything. The world in which we can clearly control things (like picking up a pencil) does not really exist. In reality, there is no being that picks up, there is no function of picking up, and there is no pencil; there are only dhammas. -------------------------------- KO: > Dhamma by itself is already not self, whether one control or not, it is still not self.? --------------------------------- If one *could* control a dhamma, then that dhamma would at least pertain (relate, have relevance) to a self, wouldn't it? But it doesn't pertain to a self in any way, and so there cannot be any control. ----------------------------------- KO: > Because I understand that?dhamma is not about concept vs dhamma, it is about understanding dhamma.? It is not about action vs non action, because there is dhamma that acts.?? It boils down to just one word, dhamma.? Nothing else matters. Object does not matter. it is the dhamma that matters. ------------------------------------ Please tell me which dhamma acts in the conventional sense. Which dhamma reads, for example? Which dhamma writes? If you look in your Abhidhamma books, will you see 'lobha-nama' 'dosa-nama' 'cetana-nama' 'reading-nama' 'writing-nama' . . .? Ken H #107664 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed May 19, 2010 1:35 am Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. kenhowardau Hi Alex, ------------ <. . .> KH: > > The Buddha taught "the Dhamma" which translates as "the way things are." Put simply, the way things are is as follows: An object is appearing to one of six possible types of >consciousness (each of which is supported by a physical base): contact is occurring between them and so too is the feeling that is dependent on contact. A: > I agree with the above. When meditation happens, within the tranquil mind, one can see the above clearer. ------------- That depends on what you mean by meditation. If you agree with the above, meditation would be any moment in which an object was experienced with tranquillity and clarity. -------------------- KH: > > Like it or not, Alex, that is the Dhamma. That is the way things are according to the Buddha. A: > And samadhi is the proximate cause of seeing things as they are. See Upanisa sutta. --------------------- Yes, I believe all co-arising (proximate) cetasikas support each other. And panna (seeing things as they are) - when it arises - is the leader of the cetasikas, isn't it? It comes first. See Mahacattarika Sutta. ----------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > He mentioned all kinds of things. He did so in order to use them as descriptions (similes and metaphors etc) for the different kinds of consciousness, mental factors and rupas that can arise. A: > But the suttas, the commentaries are clear that those are instructions TO BE DONE. ----------------------------- Yes, and how can it be done (given the above explanation of 'the way things are')? It can be done in a moment of right understanding. --------------------------------------- A: > I am not very happy when EVERY sutta passage where the Buddha uses present-active and imperative verbs, some people twist into past-passive verbs. --------------------------------------- You are not very happy when the Dhamma is explained without a controlling self in it. ----------------------------- A: > Is there any sutta or any commentary that states that ALL Buddha's instructions (including anapanasati, 32 bodyparts, etc) are merely descriptions rather than prescription "to be done"? ------------------------------ Yes, of course! All suttas say dhammas are anatta. That means there is no controlling self. You have to reach a way of understanding the world such that there can be a "path" but "no traveller on it." (Vism.) ------------------------------------- KH: > > That's all there is to the Dhamma - right understanding of the namas and rupas that are appearing now. A: > Right. And that happens most vividly during meditation, with hindrances suppressed and mind calm enough to be able to see to the bottom of things. -------------------------------------- Right. And meditation is any moment in which right understanding has been conditioned to arise. Is there right understanding now? If not, why not? --------------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > You, however, insist the Buddha taught a conventional reality A: > And "ultimate phenomena" as well. ---------------------------------- Sorry, Alex, it has to be one or the other. ------------------------------------------- A: > However one type of analysis does not need to refute the other. They are complimentary. Trains do exist in a conventional way and one better not conventionally stand in its way... :) Don't drive into Trees at 100 km/h. Even though they don't have "ultimate" existence, I don't recommend you driving into one... -------------------------------------------- Ultimately there is no control. Daily life will go on as it has been conditioned to go on. Understanding its ultimate reality will not prevent us from having concepts of trains and trees. Fear not! :-) Ken H #107665 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue May 18, 2010 10:51 pm Subject: What is the ALL actually? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Empirical ALL is what can be Sensed or Thought! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha pointed out a most Radical Empiricism: Bhikkhus, I will teach you the ALL. Listen to that... And what, Bhikkhus, is this ALL? The Eye and the Forms; The Ear and the Sounds; The Nose and the Smells; The Tongue and the Tastes; The Body and the Touches; The Mind and the Mental States. This is defines and establish this ALL... If anyone, Bhikkhus, should ever postulate this: 'Having denied this all, I will define & point another all ...!!!', that would be empty babble! If he were questioned, he would not be able to reply & he would become quite perplexed. Why? Because, Bhikkhus, that would be far out of his mental range! (since) This World both Begins and Ends within this 2 fathom frame of bones... SN I 62 Looks initially quite far & remotely 'out there'... See also the ALL as the Sensed Source: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Out_in.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_Source_of_All.htm Yet IT IS actually rather close up, as inherently sensed 'in here'... OUT = IN Wholeness: Inseparable are the internal and the external... Inseparable are the mental and the physical... Inseparable are the experience and experienced... Inseparable are the subject and the object... Inseparable are the naming and the forming... Inseparable are the mirror and the representation? The ?Real? World is a perceived Representation? Of what we will never know, since IT IS just that... A never-ending FILM in dire need of a Scissor! Insisting on Direct Experience never fails! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 15 The Salayatana section 35. Thread on the ALL: Sabba Sutta (23) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #107666 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed May 19, 2010 1:45 pm Subject: How to induce right speach? szmicio Dear friends, How to induce right speach? Best wishes Lukas #107667 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed May 19, 2010 6:24 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. moellerdieter Hi Jon and Howard , D: right effort, guarding the senses , restraint of the senses serves the purpose for a wholesome exercise of choise/ direction instead of following spontaneously impulses, doesn't it? > =============== Thanks for this comment. There is much in it that I agree with. But I think Howard's point to me was different. He says that a spontaneous kusala impulse is an instance of conditioning wholesome states "by choice" (see message #107627). That I could not quite follow. D: (Howard, I think you don't mind my quoting) J: But there cannot be kusala consciousness by choice. ================================== H: What of an altruistic impulse, spontaneous or following upon consideration, to refrain from harmful action, an impulse accompanied by calm, metta, clear mindfulness, and a whole bunch of other wholesome features? Is that not an instance of conditioning wholesome states "by choice"? I'm not saying that the volition is all-determining, but that it is one among a number of conditions that, together, lead to wholesome states. It sounds, Jon, like you are claiming that kamma never enters into the production of wholesome results, and that is surely false!! D: What we perceive here and now is previous kamma and our (re) action to it conditions - is of influence for future consciousness. There is no choice of the present but for the future , kammavipaka in this or next or succesive life. Depending on the state of mind , e.g. metta ,clear mindfulness spontaneous action will lead to future kusala consciousnes . Guarding of the senses means here to maintain that state , otherwise the exercise aims to avoid the unwholesome respectively rising the wholesome. J: Regarding your own comments, I agree it could be said that right effort, guarding the senses and restraint serve the purpose of exercising choice (wholesome choice, of course). That's because, as I see it, right effort, guarding the senses and restraint are terms designating mere impersonal dhammas (specifically the dhammas of viriya (energy), sati (awareness) and samma-kammanta (right action)), and they either arise or they don't depending on conditions. There is no actual choice involved. D: no actual choice ? Jon , why not taking what is said , please read the chapter on Caravaggo http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanip\ ata/002-caravaggo-e.html e.g. A.N. IV , 002.03. 'Bhikkhus, these four are the rightful concentrations of the mind. What four?Here, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu arouses interest and effort and strives to pursue the mind, for the non arising of not arisen demeritorious thoughts, for the dispelling of arisen demeritorious thoughts, for the arising of not arisen meritorious thoughts and the unconfused establishment, development and completion of arisen meritorious thoughts.' You are right mentioning the relation with sati and viraya , but not only samma kammanta, i.e. bodily action , samma vaca and samma ajiva involved as well , but your interpretation 'guarding the senses and restraint are terms designating mere impersonal dhammas' is not. J: You perhaps have a different scenario in mind, where there is a deliberate choice/decision/resolve not to give in to the impulse to do something akusala. We are all familiar with such a situation; D: that is one of the scenarios , i.e. to avoid J: but we also know from experience that the motivation at such times is usually quite mixed, with varying degrees of both kusala and akusala involved. When the Buddha refers to right effort, guarding the senses and restraint he is, to my understanding, referring only to the kusala moments involved in such situations. D: no , he isn't , please see the suttas mentioned above with Metta Dieter #107668 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu May 20, 2010 1:51 am Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? kenhowardau Hi Lucas and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear friends, > How to induce right speach? > ---------------------- Good question, Lucas, DSG is a quiet place at the moment. Do you have any ideas for discussion? Anyone? Ken H #107669 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu May 20, 2010 5:41 am Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? szmicio Dear Ken H, > ---------------------- > > Good question, Lucas, DSG is a quiet place at the moment. Do you have any ideas for discussion? > L: A lot of thoughts, maybe I can share it later. Best wishes Lukas #107670 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 20, 2010 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How to induce right speach? nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 19-mei-2010, om 15:45 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Dear friends, > How to induce right speech? ------ N: There is not a person who could induce it, as you know. But conditions for kusala can be cultivated. It helps if we remind each other of metta. Your question is a good opportunity. The development of satipa.t.thaana together with mettaa certainly helps. We learn that mettaa is a cetasika, not 'me'. Conceit is in the way, we cling to the importance of self. Conceit makes the citta harsh and impliable. Let me quote some parts of Kh Sujin's Perfections, on mettaa, that is always useful to remember. < For someone who is firmly established in the development of kusala with the aim to eradicate defilements and who has accumulated the perfection of determination, it is natural to practise loving- kindness. We can verify for ourselves whether we are firmly established in the development of kusala and whether we develop loving-kindness time and again. When someone is not inclined to anger and when he often practises mett?, it shows that he sees the benefit of non-anger and of the development of the perfections leading to the eradication of the defilements. Someone may believe that life belongs to him, but in reality there are only different dhammas that arise and fall away very rapidly. He should develop more understanding of his life, of his kusala cittas and akusala cittas. When we reflect on the perfections that were mentioned before, such as generosity and morality, we may believe that we have developed them already sufficiently. ... We should realize which of the perfections are still inadequately developed in our daily life. When we assist others, we should find out to what extent we have developed loving-kindness. When we compare the development of loving-kindness to the development of the other perfections, is mett? developed more, less or equal to the other perfections? If we have developed the other perfections but our inclination to assist others with kindness is deficient, we should find out the reason for this. Is it because we are already pleased with our own kusala or is it because of defilements, such as conceit, clinging to the importance of self? We may think that it is not necessary to help someone else. Or, when we have given assistance to someone else we may wonder what the other person will be thinking about us. We should find out whether such thoughts are kusala or akusala. We should instead give assistance to someone without paying attention to what he thinks about us, no matter whether he rejoices in our deed or whether he blames us, because in reality he cannot harm us. What he thinks about us concerns only himself, not us... By the development of satipa.t.thaana we shall know the difference between the characteristics of mett? and of aversion. When we recognize the characteristic of aversion as akusala, pa??? which sees the disadvantage and the ugliness of aversion and all akusala dhammas is the condition for kusala dhammas further to develop. By the development of satipa.t.thaan we shall see that instead of dosa, mett? can arise and be developed. We should also develop time and again the perfection of patience, endurance in all kinds of circumstances.... If we become angry with someone, we should know that anger arises only for a short moment and then falls away, and that mett? can arise instead. When we have accumulated the perfections we can become like the Bodhisatta who could without difficulty be established in mett? and extend it quickly towards his enemies. We should verify for ourselves whether we are angry with someone else for a long time or not. If we can have mett? instead, it shows that we have accumulated the inclination to eradicate defilements...> (end quote) ------- N: It may happen that someone speaks in a disagreeable way to us, and then it is good to remember that forgiving is a kind of daana. We can learn to forgive instead of answering back. Only sound is heard, and hearing is vipaakacitta. Will there be, after the vipaakacitta, wise attention or unwise attention to the object? Here are just a few thoughts. Do continue with your good questions, pertaining to the daily life of all of us. Nina. #107671 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu May 20, 2010 12:28 am Subject: Four Fine Formless Fruits! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Formless is the Fruit of the 4 Infinite States: The Blessed Buddha once pointed out some fine future fruits: I: The release of mind by universal friendliness developed linked with the 7 links to Enlightenment, has the beautiful liberation as culmination! II: The release of mind by compassionate pity developed all joined with the 7 links to Enlightenment, has the infinitude of space, as culmination! This is the 1st formless absorption. III: The release of mind by altruistic & mutual joy developed all linked with the 7 links to Enlightenment, has the infinitude of consciousness, as ultimate culmination... This is the 2nd formless absorption. IV: The release of mind by imperturbable equanimity developed combined with the 7 links to Enlightenment, has the sphere of nothingness, as the absolute culmination... This is the 3rd formless absorption. <..> From Delight in Diversity to Unification in Oneness... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book V 115-21 Section 46: On The Enlightenment Factors. Linked with Friendliness: 54. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html PS: Remember that Thursday 27 May in next week is Vesak Day ! http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/V/Wesak_2010.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #107672 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu May 20, 2010 10:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. jonoabb Hi Alex (107661) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > > J: In the case of bhavana (mental development), it's a matter of >what exactly was the teaching of the Buddha. If that development, >properly understood, does not involve any particular kind of >deliberate/conscious action, then obviously deliberate/conscious >action undertaken as part of a practice of bhavana would be >motivated by wrong view. > > > > > > it starts with: > > "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit? > > "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. [1] Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html > =============== J: For a start, please note the question that is being asked. It is not how anapanasati is to be developed, but how it may be developed *so as to be of great fruit/merit*. I think you can appreciate the difference. (The Buddha did not have to teach anapanasati as such, as this was already known.) Secondly, the answer given deals with a particular case or instance. It does not purport to give a comprehensive answer that covers all possible ways in which anapanasati may be developed so as to be of great fruit/merit. The particular case being described is that of a monk who fulfils the criteria mentioned, namely: - he is leading a life devoted to the development of samatha (in solitude) and vipassana; - he has developed awareness to the extent that it arises frequently and regularly, including at times when developing samatha. What is being described here are the prerequisites to attaining enlightenment with jhana as basis, where the object of the samatha development is anapanasati. The prerequisites for developing anapanasati per se are not discussed. Jon #107673 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu May 20, 2010 11:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada jonoabb Hi Howard (107662) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > [J:] I do not find in the teachings any similar role for concepts as object of > consciousness in the development of the path (there is, after all, nothing > there to be seen/seen through). > ---------------------------------------------------------- > You believe that there is nothing to be seen through, but you do not > know that. > =============== J: I thought I was squarely on agreed ground when I said that with concepts there was nothing to be seen or seen through. I seem to remember you describing concepts, in a post to KenH, as 'nothing at all'. But that aside, anything that's 'something' as far as being the object of awareness/insight is concerned is by definition a dhamma; concepts are all 'the rest'. So in a sense we can say we do know that there is nothing to be seen or seen through by panna. > =============== Seeing through concepts is seeing their merely conventional > status. And if one does not see through macroscopic concepts, the alleged > objects of this world - people, car, trees, etc, the grossest (i.e., least > subtle) of our concoctions, then there is no hope at all of awakening. > =============== J: You may remember that it is pointed out from time to time by some members here that there is no mention of concepts in the suttas. That is more or less true. It is dhammas that are the focus of the teaching, because it is dhammas that are to be known. As I understand it, the merely conventional status of concepts becomes apparent as awareness/insight into the true nature of dhammas is developed. It is not something that is known by focussing on concepts. Jon #107674 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu May 20, 2010 10:13 pm Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? jonoabb Hi Lucas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear friends, > How to induce right speach? Just refrain from wrong speech ;-)) Jon #107675 From: "philip" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 1:46 am Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? philofillet Hi Lukas For right speech, I would say note as closely as possible incidents of wrong speech, which are pretty inevitable for us, and reflect on why they are harmful. You know enough about the Buddha's teaching to make that reflection fruitfully. If you were asking about a kind of wrong deed that was less impulsive and involved planning (such as sexual misconduct, many forms of killing, most forms of stealing etc) my answer would be different. Also don't forget to note how the incidents of wrong speech become rarer and rarer, and are surrounded in a way by a sea of more right speech. I am confident that's the case for you, as it is for any thoughtful person who stays open to the Buddha's teaching! We have a lot of reasons to feel confident, beginning with observations we make on the way our behaviour is changing. (If there has been no change in your behaviour since you came across the Buddha's teaching, I would be very surprised.) As always I appreciate your interest in remedying bad behaviour. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear friends, > How to induce right speach? > > Best wishes > Lukas > #107676 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 5:03 am Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? szmicio Dear Jon > > Dear friends, > > How to induce right speach? > > Just refrain from wrong speech ;-)) L: Generally I am infatuated with pleasant feeling. Forgetting right speach. Best wishes Lukas #107677 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 5:18 am Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? szmicio Dear Phil, >(If there has been no change in your behaviour since you came across >the Buddha's teaching, I would be very surprised.) L: I could not say my speach changed muched for all this years. Best wishes Lukas #107678 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 5:20 am Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? jonoabb Dear Lucas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Jon > > > > Dear friends, > > > How to induce right speach? > > > > Just refrain from wrong speech ;-)) > > L: Generally I am infatuated with pleasant feeling. Forgetting right speach. > =============== J: So what is the cure for infatuation with pleasant feeling? ;-)) Of course, there is none. We would all like there to be less akusala and more kusala than there is now. But it is the clinging to such ideas that leads to wrong practice, and this kind of clinging is potentially far more dangerous to the development of the path than is clinging to pleasant feeling. Jon #107679 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 7:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: One step at a time, one citta at a time.... sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Ann & all, Many thx for all your good wishes! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: What a surprise. We never know what kamma has in store for us. I > wish you a lot of strength and good luck with your moving. Courageous > to undertake such a change. .... S: I'm still in a bit of shock at the sudden change of plans and it is a big move for us after all these years, but everything's going smoothly. I've had shipper estimates and they'll be packing us up in a week or so. Actually, we'll pretty well be leaving with what we arrived with in 26 years ago - boxes and boxes and boxes of Dhamma books, clothes and odds and ends. We'll be selling and giving away the furniture and starting again... Begin again, begin again....another step, another moment of seeing, another moment of hearing. That's all there ever is. As for the courage to undertake such a change... well, as we know, the only courage that counts is the courage to be aware and understand the presently appearing reality. This is how detachment grows, how the idea of any atta that can exert any power or influence over conditioned dhammas is eradicated. We're very, very busy, but are very fortunate to be moving, beginning again with all the good Dhamma reminders that everyone shares here and elsewhere. We're also trying to finish and get up-loaded the next set of edited recordings before we leave. All, I mentioned an eye problem which made it almost impossible for me to type/look at the computer for a while - according to the doctor, it was dust in the eye - but all's well now, so hope to catch up in between the clear-outs and other chores! Metta Sarah ====== #107680 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 21, 2010 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One step at a time, one citta at a time.... nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 21-mei-2010, om 9:00 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > We're very, very busy, but are very fortunate to be moving, > beginning again with all the good Dhamma reminders that everyone > shares here and elsewhere. We're also trying to finish and get up- > loaded the next set of edited recordings before we leave. ------ N: That sounds good, I appreciate this. Lodewijk wants to know whether Jon will have more legal work in Australia. It must be difficult to leave your doctor, since he was of great help. Best wishes with all the packing, Nina. #107681 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 21, 2010 8:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Howard & all, I think that Lukas's comment on the passage you provide below about "lowly talk" is right - it's pointing us "to investigate whetehr citta is kusala or akusala now". If you look at the Sabbaasava Sutta, MN 2, we read that the untaught ordinary person "who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, does not understand what things are fit for attention and what things are unfit for attention. Since that is so, he attends to those things unfit for attention and he does not attend to those things fit for attention." As B.Bodhi summarises, the commentary "makes the important point that there is no fixed determination in things themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for attention. The distinction consists, rather, in the mode of attention. That mode of attention that is a causal basis for unwholesome states of mind should be avoided, while that mode of attention that is a causal basis for wholesome states should be developed." S: In other words, it's not so much about the topics, but about the cittas, the yoniso or ayoniso manasikara whilst watching news on TV, talking about food or any other topic. Just as I was writing this paragraph, Jon called out to ask me which date and time I wanted our gas disconnected for our move! It's a good reminder that whether writing about the Dhamma or talking about the gas connection, there are just conditioned dhammas and there can be awareness, yoniso manasikara, right effort, appamada anytime at all. Does one respond to an interruption with kindness and sati or with aversion? Is there detachment or attachment whilst watching the news? There's only ever the presently arising citta, the presently appearing dhamma to be known. MN 2 continues: " 'What are the things unfit for attention that he attends to? They are things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire arises in him and the arisen taint of sensual desire increases, the unarisen taint of ignorance arises in him and the arisen taint of ignorance increases. These are the things unfit for attention that he attends to.' " Again, B.Bodhi summarises from the commentary: "MA illustrates the growth of the taints through unwise attention as follows: When he attends to gratification in the five cords of sensual pleasure, the taint of sensual desire arises and increases; when he attends to gratification in the exalted states (the jhaanas), the taint of being arises and increases; and when he attends to any mundane things through the four 'perversions' (of permanence etc.), the taint of ignorance arises and increases." S: So even if the topic concerns "exalted states", any mundane things at all, if the perversions of perception arises, it is unwise attention. The next passage in the text is also interesting and possibly relates to your question about the "lowly topic" mentioned of "whether things exist or not", (incidentally, translated as "talk about gain and loss" by Bodhi). Here, according to the commentary, the Buddha is pointing to di.t.thaasava, the taint of views which leads to doubts, from unwise attention: "This is how he attends unwisely: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall i be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? having been what, what shall I become in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the present thus: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go?" S: We can see the eternalist and anniilationist views, all the views and speculations stemming from Sakkaya ditthi, the wrong idea of self. Whilst specualting with sakkaya ditthi, there's no wise attention, hence the "lowly topic". And as we all know, the wise attention relates to the understanding of the 4 Noble Truths. "When he attends wisely in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: personality view, doubt, and adherence to rules and observances. " S: Here, Bodhi again summarises from the commentary: "MA says that up to the attainment of the path of stream-entry, attention denotes insight (vipassanaa), but at the moment of the path it denotes path-knowledge. Insight directly apprehends the first two truths, since its objective range is the mental and material phenomena comprised under dukkha and its origin; it can know the latter two truths only inferentially. Path-knowledge makes the truth of cessation its object, apprehending it by penetration as object (aaramma.na). Path-knowledge performs four functions regarding the four truths: it fully understands the truth of suffering, abandons the origin of suffering, realises the cessation of suffering, and develops the way to the cessation of suffering." S: So regardless of the kind of talk, the kind of activity engaged in, the wise attention pertains to the understanding of namas and rupas, all included under the first two truths. Back to gas connections and other "lowly" tasks - whether with or without any wise attention, remains to be seen. One step at a time, one citta at a time....one moment of awareness only ever at a time... Thanks for the helpful quote and discussion. Metta Sarah --- On Thu, 13/5/10, Lukas wrote: >Howard, This is amazing passage you gave. I am aware I am involved in all of this. Like watching news on TV. But this is only a reminder, and this point us to investigate wheather citta is kusala or akusala now. ... >>H: "Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, > are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these â€" talking about > kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and > drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; > villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the > street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical > discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, > and talk of whether things exist or not â€" he abstains from talking about > lowly topics such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue." > Among the "lowly topics" mentioned to be abstained from is "whether things > exist or not." That is interesting, but calls for enlarging upon it seems > to me. I wonder whether there is some commentary on that. Nina? Anyone? #107682 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 21, 2010 9:08 am Subject: Fwd: Abhidhamma Series, no 15. The Sense Organs nilovg > > Dear friends, > > The Sense Organs. > > For the experience of objects through the senses there have to be > sense organs and these are ruupas. Visible object and also the > ruupa which is eyesense are conditions for seeing. Eyesense does > not know anything since it is ruupa, but it is a necessary > condition for seeing. Eyesense is a ruupa in the eye, capable of > receiving visible object, so that citta can experience it. For > hearing, the experience of sound, there has to be earsense, a ruupa > in the ear, capable of receiving sound. There must be smellingsense > for the experience of odour, tastingsense for the experience of > flavour and bodysense for the experience of tangible object. > Through the bodysense are experienced: the earth element, appearing > as hardness or softness; the fire element, appearing as heat or > cold; the wind element, appearing as motion or pressure. When these > characteristics appear they can be directly experienced wherever > there is bodysense. The bodysense is all over the body, also inside > the body. Thus, there are five kinds of sense organs. These sense > organs can be the doorways for the cittas that experience sense > objects. As we have seen, visible object, sound, odour, flavour and > tangible object (which consists of three of the four Great > Elements) are experienced through the corresponding sense-doors and > they can also be experienced through the mind-door. > > Ruupas of the body and also ruupas outside the body do not arise > without there being conditions for their arising. There are four > factors that produce ruupas of the body: kamma, citta, temperature > (the element of heat) and nutrition. As we have seen, kamma is > actually the volition that motivates good and evil deeds. Kamma > that has been committed has fallen away, but since it is a mental > activity it is accumulated and can produce result later on. > Throughout our life kamma produces seeing, hearing and the other > sense-impressions that are vip?kacittas, cittas that are results. > Rebirth-consciousness is the mental result of kamma, vip?kacitta, > but at that moment kamma also produces ruupas and kamma keeps on > producing ruupas throughout life; when it stops producing ruupas > our life-span has to end. > Kamma produces particular kinds of ruupas such as the sense organs. > Citta also produces ruupas. Our different moods become evident by > our facial expressions and then it is clear that citta produces > ruupas. Temperature, which is actually the element of heat, also > produces ruupas. Throughout life the element of heat produces > ruupas. Nutrition is another factor that produces ruupas. When food > has been taken by a living being it is assimilated into the body > and then nutrition can produce ruupas. Some of the groups of ruupas > of our body are produced by kamma, some by citta, some by > temperature and some by nutrition. The four factors which produce > the ruupas of our body support and consolidate each other and keep > this shortlived body going. If we see the intricate way in which > different factors condition the ruupas of our body we shall be less > inclined to think that the body belongs to a self. > There are not only ruupas of the body, there are also ruupas which > are the material phenomena outside the body. What we take for > rocks, plants or houses are ruupas and these originate from > temperature. We may wonder whether there are no other factors apart > from the element of heat that contribute to the growth of plants, > such as soil, light and moisture. It is true that these factors are > the right conditions that have to be present so that a plant can > grow. But what we call soil, light and moisture are, when we are > more precise, different combinations of ruupas, none of which can > arise without the element of heat or temperature that produces > them. Ruupas outside the body are only produced by temperature, not > by kamma, citta or nutrition. > > ---------- > Nina. > > #107683 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 9:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: DO in Aruppa planes sarahprocter... Dear Vince, #107498 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > I have found this text, in where metta is closely related with anatta, > so it would be fully dependent of panna and annata. > http://www.zolag.co.uk/mettac.html .... S: Yes, this is from A.Sujin's book on Metta. All dhammas, including metta are anatta. Understanding more about all kinds of dhammas as anatta leads to the growth of purer dana, purer sila, purer metta and purer bhavana. ... > There is only one thing which I don't see clear, and that is the > existence of metta in a spontaneous way, as in the case explained in > the previous post. The text explain metta in a progressive way to be > associated with the Dhamma practice, then until: > > "panna, right understanding, knows that what one takes for beings, > until "people or self are only mental phenomena, nama dhammas, and > physical phenomena, rupa dhammas." ... S: All conditioned dhammas, including metta, arise "in a spontaneous way" when there are the right conditions for them to do so. Through the development of right understanding of namas and rupas, the characteristic of metta can be known more precisely and there will be less delusion about its true nature and more appreciation for the value of all kinds of kusala, all kinds of wholesome states without any "trying" to have them out of desire. ... > But if we think in the case of the previous post, the only possible > explanation for that non-mediatized action it's this same one. > In a general way, all the human beings we can have a direct access to > the truth in a spontaneous way. Although maybe it is not openly > supported in Abbhidhamma because it cannot be systematized in a > practice. ... S: The development of understanding is the practice. Without any understanding now, there is no practice at all. ... >I don't talk of the existence of shortcuts but about the > natural expression of the unconditioned, moment after moment. > > The point is that any person can experience anatta in daily life, ... S: I don't think so. Unless there is very clear understanding of nama and rupa now, there cannot be any understanding of anatta. It is the understanding of the anatta nature of namas and rupas that has to be developed. ... > and > in fact it can be a very common thing. But due to the citta speed, > this fact can be covered by our reason, which is the subsequent citta > process of delusion. So many people can have a flash of the truth but > it would not be "freedom" because later it would be not present in the > intellect. Therefore we cannot check it in others or ourselves by > means the thought or speech actions. > What do you think?. ... S: I think that it's easy to think that an understanding of anatta is common or that there can be flashes of understanding of the truth. However, we can tell when we talk to others in detail whether there is any basic understanding at all of namas and rupas, of seeing and visible object, for example. If not, then there is no understanding of anatta. ... >I believe these rare cases of metta are a very > interest thing to reflect, because we can check the existence of a > sudden access to the truth by means body actions which arises without > interference of the reason. ... S: I would say that metta can be quite common. Those who have not ever heard or understood the Buddha's teachings may still have many moments of kindness, of metta during the day. However, without any understanding of exactly what it is, it may decline rather than develop. Thx for all your reflections. Pls share any quotes from A.Sujin's book on Metta here or discuss further. Metta Sarah ======= #107684 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 21, 2010 10:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One step at a time, one citta at a time.... sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- On Fri, 21/5/10, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >N: That sounds good, I appreciate this. Lodewijk wants to know whether Jon will have more legal work in Australia. ... S: Not in Austalia, but if he has any in Hong Kong, it'll be a good excuse for us to return. Actually, we're expecting to spend quite a lot of the year in HK and Bkk too... ... >It must be difficult to leave your doctor, since he was of great help. ... S: When I mention it to my acupuncturist, my yoga teacher and many friends (especially the surfers), they all say they'd like to come with us!! Everyone knows about Manly beach here.... even more popular than Hong Kong! Oh what stories we weave.... what madness we worldlings live in! Metta Sarah #107685 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 10:27 am Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas sarahprocter... Dear Alex, #107495 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > S: We tend to think about right livelihood in a conventional sense, >but actually, the practising of right livelihood is momentary. > >A: Right. As a series of cittas that can either be rooted in 3 wholesome or 3 unwholesome roots. ... S: What we refer to conventionally as right livelihood consists of different kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya cittas. The kusala cittas may have 2 or 3 wholesome roots, depending on whether panna arises. The akusala cittas can only have one or two roots at a time. Ignorance always arises with these, but lobha or dosa do not always arise and never together. When we refer to right livelihood of the eightfold path, the citta always has 3 wholesome roots, inc. panna. ... > > S: They are referring to momentary virati (abstention) cetasikas as >part of the 8-fold Path. However, just like in the case of any other >cittas or cetasikas, they arise in processes (vithi) and in the course >of uttering a few words, there are many, many such processes. > > > >A: Why not just call "right livelihood, etc" as specific instances of non-greed, non-hate and/or non-delusion? ... S: They are specific instances as you suggest when the virati cetasikas arises, abstaining from wrong speech or action during one's work. It doesn't matter how it's named, but the virati distinguishes these moments, these cittas from other kusala cittas which are also rooted in alobha, adosa and amoha. ... >A: After all, in what way is abstention functionally different from > one or all of these -> alobha, adosa, amoha? ... S: When the virati (abstention) arises, there is the intentional avoidance of harming through speech or deeds. It only arises when there is the thought or idea of wrong speech or action. For example, one is about to say something unkind and abstains. Of course, many different cittas are involved and only panna can understand the virati itself. The arahat will not have any virati arising of course, because there is no idea of any wrong speech or action. ... > " "And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome. > > 6. "And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; non-covetousness is wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the wholesome. ... S: For the sotapanna, no virati(abstention) from killing, because no thought of killing. At the moment of sotapatti magga citta, all eight factors arise together and after this there is never a thought of killing again. So the virati will then only arise in relation to those kinds of speech and deeds not yet eradicated. ... > > 7. "And what is the root of the wholesome? Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion is a root of the wholesome. This is called the root of the wholesome." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html > > All of these actions come from 3 roots that are either wholesome or unwholesome. No mention of specific cetasikas called "right livelihood" etc. That seems superfluous when you already have the the root of wholesome being "Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion" .... S: As I said, when lobha, dosa and moha have been eradicated, there is no virati, nothing harmful to abstain from. However, the Buddha taught an eightfold path with 3 kinds of virati which can arise, abstaining from harmful speech and deeds. There are many different kinds of cittas, of cetasikas, which may have the same roots, but which have specific qualities. Metta Sarah ======== #107686 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 10:29 am Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. jonoabb Hi Dieter (107667) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > D: What we perceive here and now is previous kamma and our (re) action to it conditions - is of influence for future consciousness. > =============== J: You say that how we react to present sense-door experiences influences future consciousness. I wonder if you'd agree with the following: Every moment of kusala or akusala consciousness accumulates, and these accumulations of kusala and akusala have an effect on the nature of the consciousness that arises in the future. What is the difference between the 2 versions? A reaction is, by definition, immediate and uncontrolled. So while conventionally speaking we can make an effort to 'react less', that can never affect the reaction that is happening as the effort is being made; it can only (hopefully) have some effect in the future. And one's motives for making that effort are bound to be mixed, such as wishing one's accumulations for akusala were less than in fact they are. To my understanding of the teachings, it's more appropriate to think in terms of the development of kusala of different kinds whenever the opportunity presents itself, in particular of course kusala of the level of satipatthana. > =============== There is no choice of the present but for the future, kammavipaka in this or next or succesive life. > =============== J: I think you're saying that although we cannot choose the present we can influence the future. To my understanding of the Buddha's message, it is only kusala now that can condition kusala in the future. But as we agree (if I understand what you are saying above), there cannot be kusala at the present moment by choice. > =============== > Depending on the state of mind , e.g. metta ,clear mindfulness spontaneous action will lead to future kusala consciousnes . > =============== J: Yes, kusala now conditions kusala in the future. Kusala can and does arise spontaneously in a day without there being any conscious, deliberate effort to 'have' it. But trying to have kusala when the present mental state is strongly akusala is not in itself a kind of kusala spoken of by the Buddha. > =============== > D: no actual choice ? Jon , why not taking what is said , please read the chapter on Caravaggo > http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanip\ ata/002-caravaggo-e.html > > e.g. A.N. IV , 002.03. > 'Bhikkhus, these four are the rightful concentrations of the mind. What four?Here, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu arouses interest and effort and strives to pursue the mind, for the non arising of not arisen demeritorious thoughts, for the dispelling of arisen demeritorious thoughts, for the arising of not arisen meritorious thoughts and the unconfused establishment, development and completion of arisen meritorious thoughts.' > =============== J: If I understand correctly, you're saying that what's being described in this passage involves the exercise of choice on the part of the person. This is by virtue of the words "arouses interest and effort and strives to pursue the mind", which connote deliberate conscious action/effort. The choice to be exercised to undertake (or not) one or other of the 4 right efforts as described in the passage. (Apologies if I've misunderstood your meaning.) I'd like to know how you see this happening in practice. To me it just doesn't 'work'. How is it known which of the 4 right efforts should be chosen? How is it known whether the effort will have or has had some effect? It would be helpful if you could give an example of the exercise of right effort as one is composing or reading a post (as we are doing now). Thanks. > =============== > You are right mentioning the relation with sati and viraya , but not only samma kammanta, i.e. bodily action , samma vaca and samma ajiva involved as well , but your interpretation 'guarding the senses and restraint are terms designating mere impersonal dhammas' is not. > =============== J: I'm suggesting that terms such as right effort, guarding the senses and restraint, as used by the Buddha, are referring to kusala moments of consciousness only and not to periods of mixed kusala and akusala moments of consciousness. Would you mind saying a little about why you disagree with the notion of mere impersonal dhammas in connection with these terms? Thanks. Always lots of points to cover in our exchanges ;-)) Jon #107687 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 11:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, On "The All" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >S: Read above again :). Just namas and rupas, Ken! They are "the All". > > KO:? Now?we have the?The All.? The All can include concepts because listening is a conventional action taking a conceptual objects.? So is listening a paramatha dhamma level or a conventional level.? ... S: When the Buddha encouraged us to understand "The All", he was referring to the understanding, the penetration of the 12 ayatanas, the 5 khandhas, not to conventional actions and concepts. .... > >... > >S: You talk about action, I talk about dhammas. Kusala dhammas are very useful, akusala dhammas are useless, regardless of the activity. > > KO:? You did not answer my questions, how do you listen then without cetana as a dhamma.? Are you saying there is no cetana as dhamma.? ... S: No one has said this ever on DSG that I recall. ... > >... > >S: I'll need to read the details again. The intentions of the Bodhisatta in front of Dipankara Buddha and ours when wishing to become enlightened are very different:-) . > > KO:? Good I am waiting :-) ... S: I've no idea what you're waiting for. Are you comparing our common aspirations for enlightenment or Buddhahood with those of the bodhisatta? I think you've read the texts about all the conditions that have to have been in place for the bodhisatta to have become a bodhisatta. ... > >.... > >S: "Expects" is nearly always lobha. Many different dhammas conditioning "one to listen and read". Only panna can know when it arises what the dhammas are. This is why we need to reflect on and understand dhammas, not situations. > > > KO:? so then how does one wish to be a Buddha if the dhamma does not arise to condition.??You mean panna alone one can act or listen or have?interest.?? We have to be clear on the dhamma terms.? ... S: If you look in U.P. under "Bodhisatta" you can read all the extensive details and conditions. Just wishing is useless:-) Of course panna never acts alone. However, without panna, there's no development of any kusala at all. Metta Sarah ======== #107688 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 11:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? sarahprocter... Dear Mike & Ken H, > > Mike: Presumably you mean something different by "rolling on" than I do. I would have taken it to mean that they are not affected by anything else, like a wheel rolling down a hill. > > ---------- > > That's how I see it too. Although maybe not "down a hill". That could imply the outside force of gravity. :-) > > The expression has been used here several times, and I presume it was borrowed from the texts. I think there is a place, for example, where the texts use a simile of a rolling wheel, and say that the part touching the road is like the fleeting existence of dhammas. .... S: Visuddhimagga, VII, 39: "As to the shortness of the moment: in the ultimate sense the life moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls [that is touches the ground] only on one point of [the circumference of] its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according as it was said: 'In a past conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a future conscious moment not he did live, not he does live. In a present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will live. "'Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow' (Nd.1,42)." Metta Sarah ====== #107689 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 11:24 am Subject: Re: How to be a good guy? sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (& Ken O), > KO:? try the one that is most suitable for you.? if samatha is not the correct way, then use seeing, hearing etc?that suits you.? ?No hard and fast rule, select those that suits your way of thinking.? ... S: "No hard and fast rule", no rule at all. So don't even think about "trying" anything, "using" anything or "selecting" anything. It's also silabbataparamasa - adherence to rites and rituals! ... > > L: I read mindfulness occupied with the body recollection from Visudhi. > It looks like I have to sit and start verbal recitation first. > Go from feet to head and back. And apply to different methods. > This leads to samatha. But what way shall i reflect parts of the body if I want stay with vipassana? ... S: No, if you understand and do as you suggest, "applying different methods", it won't lead to samatha. It'll lead to more attachment, ignorance and aversion. It's not a matter of following rules, "staying" with anything, but understanding the present dhammas without desire for results. ... > To be honest I've learned that my only chance to develop more kusala is vipassana. This always bring kusala. ... S: At moments of satipatthana or vipassana development, there is samatha. At moments of dana or sila or metta, there is samatha. The citta at such times is calm and free from akusala, free from the hindrances already. ... >If I try samatha methods this makes me disappointed and brings a lot of clinging. ... S: Of course, because it's motivated by attachment and wrong view. ... >This is like a dog that is close in seperate room. If you close the door he starts barking, but if you put the door open just a bit, he stop barking and go to sleep. This is me with vipassana, I dont think much of kusala development, so I can take rest and then kusala appears. ... S: I like the analogy. Open the door a little and let the sleeping dog lie! Yes, relax, stop obsessing about Lukas and his kusala or akusala and let right understanding do its work. It's panna which finds the hole in the roof (or closed door?) of lobha. Metta Sarah ======== #107690 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] flying purple elephant sarahprocter... Dear Alex, I forget if either Ken commented on this: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: are creations of sanna and other relevant aggregates and are based on namarupa. The namarupa aggregates are anicca, dukkha, anatta. The concepts are based on them, therefore concepts are also anicca, dukkha & anatta (like their basis, namarupa). > > SABBE SANKHARA ANICCA. Concepts are sankhata. ... S: No, Alex. Sankhara refer to conditioned dhammas, conditioned namas and rupas, not to concepts. Metta Sarah ===== #107691 From: "colette" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 5:57 am Subject: FUNDAMENTALS ksheri3 Hi Group, Is it WRONG SPEACH, for instance, to LABEL SOMETHING AS BEING RIGHT OR WRONG? Exactly WHERE is the consciousness that dictates the need to impose a label (see NAME & FORM) upon anything as a means of manifesting this illusion of life? toodles, colette #107692 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 1:00 am Subject: The Good Friend! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How is a Friend Good? The Blessed Buddha once explained: Who is welcoming and friendly, Generous, open and unselfish, A guide, an instructor, a leader, Such one will gain much honour! Digha Nikaya 31 The friend who is a helping companion, The friend both in happiness and misery, The friend who gives good & sound advice, The friend who really cares & understands... These four, the clever knows as good Friends! These 4 heroes, one should cherish devotedly, as a mother nurses her own only child. Digha Nikaya 31 If one finds a wise and intelligent friend, who lives a good, correct & fully pure life, Then, overcoming all obstacles, one should always keep his joyous and alert company... Dhammapada 328 <..> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <..> #107693 From: "billybobby717" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 6:03 am Subject: Patimokkha Rules billybobby717 I've been having a conversatin with my friends and they say that most of the rules for monks were added much later.Of the Patimokkha precepts what were the rules that the Buddha gave to the monks and which ones were added later? How do we know? Thanks! Billy #107694 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 12:00 pm Subject: Re: FUNDAMENTALS sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Is it WRONG SPEACH, for instance, to LABEL SOMETHING AS BEING RIGHT OR WRONG? ... S: It would depend on the mental states at such a time as to whether it was RIGHT or WRONG speech. When the Buddha labelled some thoughts, deeds and speech as RIGHT and some as WRONG, it was always RIGHT SPEECH! Metta Sarah ========= #107695 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 12:23 pm Subject: Re: On Meditation (an integral part of N8P) sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Kevin* & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Bahiya may have had Jhana or jhana like attainments prior to meeting the Buddha. You know the story, he was an ascetic who thought himself holy. It wouldn't surprise me if the reason he thought himself holy was due to temporary suppression of the hindrances. He may also have had lots of Jhana attainments in past lives. He definately had clairvoyant abilities (which may require 4th Jhana) to talk to Deva who told him that he wasn't an Arahant. > > Reading from the sutta, he also had very very strong urgency to see the Buddha, a lot of faith! So all these things combined, plus meeting the Buddha (a super motivational experience itself) was enough, FOR HIM, to become an Arahant within few minutes. All Bahiya needed was a proper personalized instruction by the Buddha and very ardent application of it. The rest, he may have completed to required degree. .... S: You may like to read what I wrote before, summarising part of the long and detailed commentary on Bahiya(# 24977). >We read in th Bahiya sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html that Bahiya became fully enlightened (an arahant) after hearing a few sentences from the Buddha on the nature of realities. His wisdom was such that it penetrated the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta and we may think that this is a relatively simple matter. In the commentary to this sutta (Ud-a), we read in fact about how Bahiya had first heard the Dhamma a hundred thousand kalpas in the past under the Buddha, Padumuttara and in that life had performed great meritorious deeds. He had gone forth under Buddha Kassapa and had lives in deva realms with "morality completely fulfilled". In fact he had spent one entire Buddha sasana in the devaloka. Even so, in the present life, when he became highly respected by people after he was shipwrecked and wandered around with only garments made from bark, he mistakenly assumed he was an arahant because he was treated as one. In fact he had not achieved any level of attainment at all and was completely misguided, deceiving those who supported him and paid him respect. It took a visit by Grat Brahma, a former deva companion and an anagami (non-returner)who took pity on him, to shock him to his senses. Great Brahma tells him: "You now, though being no arahant, roam about wearing the guise of a religious in the belief that you are an arahant. You Bahiya are certainly no arahant. Renounce this evil resorting to views." Hence, we see how even for those who have heard the Dhamma from Buddhas, have had kalpas of rebirths as devas with wise companions, and have attained all jhanas, they can still succomb badly to wrong views about self if they haven't reached the first stage of enlightenment. We read in the Ud-a about how the conceit of arahantship arose in him because of being used to "wanting little, contentment and effacement" for a long time and misjudging these states or because of having attained jhanas and therefore not experiencing defilements "as a result of abandoning in the form of suppression". In other words, wrong views about attainments as a result of not experiencing defilements for a long time can be very dangerous. Urged by Great Brahma, he went to see the Buddha. As we read in the sutta, it was only on a third occasion that the Buddha agreed to teach him the Dhamma. In the Ud-a, we read that he was rejected twice because the Buddha knew "the thrill of that joy is too powerful - even if he hears Dhamma he will not, as yet, be able to pierce it. So let him wait until balance and equanimity reasert themselves." In order for Bahiya to be able to hear and fully comprehend the teachings from the Buddha, so many different conditions had to be in place, including the final meeting and listening to the Buddha himself. The Buddha fully comprehended these conditions and knew the time was ripe for Bahiya and so entered Savatthi in order that Bahiya would find him.< [S: > I'm using Peter Masefield's translation of the Udana (Ud) and Udana commentary (Ud-a), both published by the PTS for these quotes. The on-line sutta can be found at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html] **** *S: Kevin, the commentary on the Bahiya sutta and the rest of the Udana has already been translated and is excellent, so you can cross that off your list! For a lot more of the detail on the Bahiya Sutta and commentary, see under "Bahiya" in 'Useful Posts'. I read your comments, Kevin, about your work and the Pali. K.Sujin would say to you that the only thing that matters is the development of understanding. Nothing else! This is always so helpful for me. She never encourages anyone to study Pali, translate or do anything else - just understand! I appreciate your keen interest and look forward to more of your contributions here. Metta Sarah ====== #107696 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 21, 2010 8:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to induce right speach? upasaka_howard Hi, Phil & lukas - In a message dated 5/20/2010 9:50:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Lukas For right speech, I would say note as closely as possible incidents of wrong speech, which are pretty inevitable for us, and reflect on why they are harmful. You know enough about the Buddha's teaching to make that reflection fruitfully. If you were asking about a kind of wrong deed that was less impulsive and involved planning (such as sexual misconduct, many forms of killing, most forms of stealing etc) my answer would be different. Also don't forget to note how the incidents of wrong speech become rarer and rarer, and are surrounded in a way by a sea of more right speech. I am confident that's the case for you, as it is for any thoughtful person who stays open to the Buddha's teaching! We have a lot of reasons to feel confident, beginning with observations we make on the way our behaviour is changing. (If there has been no change in your behaviour since you came across the Buddha's teaching, I would be very surprised.) As always I appreciate your interest in remedying bad behaviour. Metta, Phil ============================== I'd like to add a thought: Speech begins in the mind. As we aer inclined, so do we speak. So guarding the tongue begins with guarding the mind. Being attentive to one's thoughts and inclinations, i.e., introspection, is the core of what needs to be done, as I see it. a developed habit of honest introspection is a requisite IMO. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107697 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 12:36 pm Subject: Re: On Meditation (an integral part of N8P) sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > The patisambhidamagga suggest that satipatthana is lokuttara. ... S: Would you quote the lines or give me the reference for this? Thx. ... > > Most of the time, IMHO, one doesn't do satipatthana - it is work of sanna and or yoniso manasikaro. IMHO real insight isn't read or speculated about, it is experienced. ... S: Satipatthana refers to the development of sati with panna. None of the time does "one" come into it. Yes, "real insight" directly penetrates the nature of realities, the present namas and rupas. So there has to be the right understanding of what these are. ... > >Sarah: > >As B.Bodhi summarises in his introduction to his translation of the >Brahmajala Sutta and its commentaries ("The All-Embracing Net of >Views", a great number, (if not the majority) of the 62 wrong views >described have their source in "the experience of meditative >attainments", which I understand to be referring to jhanas and other >samatha attainments. > >A: The point is valid. One can misinterpret anything. This is why I believe in the importance of sutta study. > > Unlike them, those who study suttas and have right "theoretical views" > may not always be caught in the above. So it doesn't apply to all Buddhists. ... S: It applies to all those moments of misinterpretation or wrong view which arise prior to becoming a sotapanna. In other words, it applies "to all Buddhists" who have not eradicated wrong view. ... > >S:"Reply: It is not the mere employment of the expression that is >intended here, but the wrong adherence which occurs through a >perversion of perception....." > >A: Not all meditators believe in a Self or control. ... S: Unless they are sotapannas, ditthi-anusaya, the tendency for wrong view is there, lying dormant ready to condtion the arising of self belief and ideas of control. ... > >S:" 'Develops'(bhaavetii) means to beget, produce, increase (janeti, >uppaadeti, va.d.dheti). This is the meaning of bhaavanaa here. > > Right. Meditation (bhavana) is no different and I haven't claimed otherwise. ... S: Good, we agree. I think my comments were adressed to Ken O. Meditation refers to the development of wisdom and other wholesome states, not to any conventional activity. ... > The problem as I see it for what some teach here is that it simply irrelevant for people with strong defilements. They obstruct wisdom AN5.51, otherwise we'd be like Bahiya - already Arahants. ... S: Yes, when defilements (even the mildest ones) arise, wisdom is obstructed. However, the greatest obstruction of all is wrong view. So if there is any idea of control, selection or activity as being the path, then there is no hole in the roof of lobha at all, no opportunity for any light of wisdom to shine. So, the path is not about trying to get rid of the hindrances first, but of understanding at this moment what is conditioned. Is there courage enough to understand and be detached from whatever has arisen, even if it is some strong defilement? Metta Sarah ======= #107698 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 1:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >S:" 'Develops'(bhaaveti i) means to beget, produce, increase (janeti, uppaadeti, va.d.dheti). This is the meaning of bhaavanaa here. Elsewhere the meaning is different according to the preposition, as sambhaavanaa, paribhaavanaa, vibhaavanaa. > > > KO:? I am waiting for this quote and I know you will use it.? So does this change the meaning?of bhavana as development.? It just explain developemnt as increase of panna.? Does it said no concepts :-).? Also objects of the foufold jhanas?are concepts :-) ... S: I think you keep misunderstanding what we all say here. I'm not sure why. No one has said that panna cannot arise with concepts as objects. What we have said repeatedly is that if you're referring to satipatthana or vipassana, the object is always a paramattha dhamma. Of course, there has to be intellectual right understanding first and of course, at such moments of pariyatti, it is the concept of paramattha dhammas as object. I don't understand your difficulty with what we say on this point. .... > ><...> > >" Again bhaavanaa is used in the sense of producing and increasing > >(uppaadanava. d.dhana.t. thena), eg:-'Udaayi, I have preached to the disciples the practice (pa.tipadaa) according to which they develop (bhaaventii) the four applications in mindfulness (cattaaro satipa.t.thaane) ' (MN ii 11). And such is its meaning here also. > > > > KO:? so that is the first applications - breathing as a concept :-).? You could read the commentary to Satipatthana, anapasati, Dispeller of Delusion and Visud, it is all about concepts.? If not, you quote me another source is it not a concepts.? .... S: Of course we've read the same commentaries and the same details. You think they are talking about understanding concepts, I think they are talking about the development of satipatthana, the direct understanding of paramattha dhammas, regardless of one's lifestyle, regardless of whether one has developed anapanasati and jhanas, regardless of whether one is putting on a cloak, eating a meal, walking or anything else. A Buddha wasn't needed to teach about the concepts of anapanasati, walking, cloak-wearing or munching food. ... > >... > >S: Whether we're referring to samatha or vipassana bhaavanaa, the meaning of bhaavanaa is to develop, produce, increase right understanding and other wholesome factors. > > > >Whatever we we read, it is pa.tipadaa, the development of satipatthana that is the only path as taught by the Buddha. > > > >We can just agree to differ on our interpretation of any texts:) > > KO: Yes, I do not said vipassana is wrong or samatha is wrong.? ... S: I'm glad to hear it! However, you have a different understanding of what vipassana and samatha are, I believe. Also, when you say that K.Sujin and others of us are not interested in samatha or something along those lines, I believe you misunderstand what we say. ... >I am saying the interpretation of satipatthana by you is wrong.? It is not supported by the text.??Also, we cannot say according to interpretation, because Alex will said jhanas according to his interpretations.? Lets stick to the text. ... S: Yes, Alex speaks according to his interpretation of the texts, I speak according to my interpretation of the texts and you speak according to your interpretation of the texts. It's the same for all of us, that's why we're here - to discuss:-) Metta Sarah ======= #107699 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 1:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >S: Here's another good example from the same text, regarding jhana and the importance of right view: > > > >"One who obtains jhaana through the earth-kasina may adhere to the object perceived in his meditation-vision as a self; or he may take that object as a sign of his superiority. Thus he conceives 'I am earth' (through the conceivings of views and conceit, respectively) . Apprehending this kasina object as 'my self', he conceives 'earth is mine.' On the other hand, if he adhere to this object doctrinally as another person or as a god, he conceives 'another is earth'; and if he adheres to it as the self of another, he conceives 'earth belongs to another.'" > > KO:? Yes this is the explanation of?sakkayaditthi.? Also there it is using concepts also?as a method of development :-) >.... S: I'd say it's using concepts to point to the danger of not understanding paramattha dhammas, not understanding pathavi dhatu as an element, a conditioned reality. Without such understanding, there is bound to be atta ditthi. .... > >S:"....the defining of mentality-materiali ty (naamaruupavavattha ana) is the full understanding of the known; from insight-comprehensi on of the groups (kalaapasammasana) as far as conformity-knowledg e (anuloma) is the full understanding by scrutinization; and the knowledge of the ariyan path is the full understanding by abandoning. > > > >"Therein, the 'full understanding of the known' is the wisdom of full understanding by which one fully understands, delimits (paricchindati) , the plane of insight (vipassanaabhuumi) ." > > > >"The 'full understanding of scrutinization' understands the five clinging aggregates in their true nature as impermanent, (suffering, and non-self), by delimiting them through insight-comprehensi on and scrutinizing their modes of impermanence, etc., together with their accompaniments. " > > > >S: Paramattha dhammas, not concepts... > > > > KO:? Definitely during vipassa nana?is paramatha dhamma, but how does one reach this.? By nama and rupa only or there are other ways like 32 parts, breathing as said in the Visud and commentaries.? ... S: Only by beginning now to understand namas and rupas appearing. Hearing and considering more about the namas and rupas now, beginning to be aware of seeing, visible object and other realities. It's the only way. ... >As I said to Lukas, dont impose vipassana or supradmudane to mundane.? ... S: Mundane beginner steps now - understanding what appears at this very moment - the reality, the khandha, not the imaginary concept. Metta Sarah ======= #107700 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 2:33 pm Subject: Re: On Meditation (an integral part of N8P) truth_aerator Hi Sarah, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" > > Hi Alex, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" > wrote: > > The patisambhidamagga suggest that satipatthana is lokuttara. > ... > S: Would you quote the lines or give me the reference for this? Thx. > ... "1. What ideas are supramundane? The four Foundations of Mindfulness, the four Right Endeavours, the four Bases for Success (Roads to Power), the five Faculties, the five Powers, the seven Enlightenment factors, the Eightfold Path; then the four Noble Paths, the four Fruits of Asceticism, and Nibbana" ...They do not stand in the world, thus they are supramundane. TREATISE XVIII. - ON THE SUPRAMUNDANE >S: So, the path is not about trying to get rid of the hindrances >first, but of understanding at this moment what is conditioned. Is >there courage enough to understand and be detached from whatever has >arisen, even if it is some strong defilement? IMHO when the hindrance has arisen, at that time, there is no detachement. It is however possible to reflect on the past and gone hindrance with a calm, wise and tranquil mind that just emerged from Jhana. Thank you for your other replies as well. With metta, Alex #107701 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 moellerdieter Hi Jon, you wrote: 'D: What we perceive here and now is previous kamma and our (re) action to it conditions - is of influence for future consciousness. > =============== J: You say that how we react to present sense-door experiences influences future consciousness. I wonder if you'd agree with the following: Every moment of kusala or akusala consciousness accumulates, and these accumulations of kusala and akusala have an effect on the nature of the consciousness that arises in the future. D: I agree , but think we may add neutral kamma as we could say it carries the delusion/avijja/moha J: What is the difference between the 2 versions? D: the difference is that the Abhidhamma introduced the moral component into D.O. ( the ' blue print' of the orgin of the whole mass of suffering ) which actually belongs to the sila sequence of the 8fold Noble Path. In other words D.O. is concerned with the first and second Noble Truth, whereas the cessation and its way out , the 3rd and 4th Noble Truth , the way out of D.O. /Samsara. Sila, wholesome action J: A reaction is, by definition, immediate and uncontrolled. D: reactions are automated , our habits we aquired . These habits are actions by body ,speech and thought ( in D.O. programed by avijja -sankhara - and showing up in the consciousness- sankhara khanda relation . J.: So while conventionally speaking we can make an effort to 'react less', that can never affect the reaction that is happening as the effort is being made; it can only (hopefully) have some effect in the future. And one's motives for making that effort are bound to be mixed, such as wishing one's accumulations for akusala were less than in fact they are. D: when we react , we can not change the 6 senses act , i.e. the moment /citta , which is accumulated past (conditioned by avijja -sankhara , previous kamma ). To understand our reaction we need to follow the D.O.a bit further, i.e. when it comes to (contact conditions feeling )- feeling conditions thirst - thirst conditions attachment .. and here is weakness of the chain , where it links can be broken by insight (anicca, dukkha, anatta leading to disentchantment -dispassion- detachment ) It is not the point of react less but to react skillful , mindful to that what the moment /citta is providing as the 6sense situation. To pay attention/ to remain focused on what is going on..through that intention/will may its habit/direction, which as you mentioned 'can only (hopefully) have some effect in the future' J: To my understanding of the teachings, it's more appropriate to think in terms of the development of kusala of different kinds whenever the opportunity presents itself, in particular of course kusala of the level of satipatthana. D: as mentioned before the introduction of kusala and akusala into D.O. - leads to, as I see it , a bit of mixture with the Path. Kusala and akusala are treated in the sila part and are building the ground for the samadhi part, i.e. the (akusala) habits (mainly) abolished by training of the discipline. By right effort this discipline is translated into 4 practical ways allowing the skills of satipatthana to be learnt ( to have a focus on what is going on within the 4 frameworks ) and by jhana what is behind..all that in order to feed the panna part , leading to insight for the perfection of understanding/view and thought/resolve . These are - as I see it according to the teaching the conditions for cessation of ignorance ,for cessation of sankhara , the kamma formation, the way of will /cetana throughn wholesome, unwholesome or neutral action. The D.O. chain broken .. let me make a pause here , ?there are indeed "Always lots of points to cover in our exchanges ;-)) " ;-) with Metta Dieter #107702 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 7:44 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 truth_aerator Hello Jon, Dieter, all, > 'D: What we perceive here and now is previous kamma and our (re) >action to it conditions - is of influence for future consciousness. > > =============== > > J: You say that how we react to present sense-door experiences >influences future consciousness. > >J:I wonder if you'd agree with the following: Every moment of kusala >or akusala consciousness accumulates, and these accumulations of >kusala and akusala have an effect on the nature of the consciousness >that arises in the future. Only if there can be a degree influencing of present moment to help kusala or akusala citta. Otherwise the idea sounds like fatalism that Buddha has refuted ex: that one kills now (akusala) solely due to the past akusala actions, and that current akusala is practically a vipaka rather than something that can be influenced and avoided (in the case of akusala). =========================================== I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html With metta, Alex #107703 From: han tun Date: Fri May 21, 2010 10:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One step at a time, one citta at a time.... hantun1 Dear Sarah and Jon, For no reason, I feel sad to know that you are moving. I wish you the best of everything. Please take good care. with metta, Han #107704 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri May 21, 2010 10:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: One step at a time, one citta at a time.... jonoabb Dear Han --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah and Jon, > > For no reason, I feel sad to know that you are moving. > I wish you the best of everything. > Please take good care. Many thanks for your thoughts and good wishes. When we were considering (in Adelaide in 1984) whether I should apply for a position with the Legal Department of the Hong Kong Government, I sought the advice of a legal colleague who had recently returned from a 3-year stint doing just that. He was positive about the move, but had just 1 bit of advice: don't stay there too long. (It was well-intended advice. In those days many of the young expats who came to Hong Kong ended up gong off the rails in some manner or other.) Now, 26 years later, we are moving on. Even now we are still not actually leaving Hong Kong, but it feels like we are. So there is some sadness for us too. But we will have the continuity of the discussion with our friends here and that is a very comforting thing (Phil may pick me up on that!!). Thanks again for your message. Jon #107705 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat May 22, 2010 6:19 am Subject: Re: Patimokkha Rules ptaus1 Hi Billy, > I've been having a conversatin with my friends and they say that most of the rules for monks were added much later.Of the Patimokkha precepts > what were the rules that the Buddha gave to the monks and which ones were added later? How do we know? I don't know much on vinaya, but one story I often heard is that (in Theravada) it's said that all 227 rules of patimokkha were given directly by the Buddha, and then just before his death, he told Ananda that some of the minor rules can be abolished after his death (I think this was said in Mahaparinibbana sutta). But, Ananda then didn't ask the Buddha which minor rules exactly he had in mind, so at the time of the first council after the Buddha's death, it was decided to keep all the rules since they didn't know which minor rules to abolish. Anyway, hopefully someone with more knowledge will add/correct. Best wishes pt #107706 From: "sarah" Date: Sat May 22, 2010 10:46 am Subject: Re: Khujjuttara sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, Thanks for sharing the story of Khujjuttara. #107214. I always appreciate this example because she was a maid who listened carefully to the Buddha's words, "meditated penetratively" and became a sotapanna by the end of the discourse. Later she was able to repeat the teachings to the Queen and 500 attendants and they all became sotapannas also at the time. No special practises or methods, just wise attention and accumulations for understanding to penetrate the Truths. Pls share any other accounts you find inspiring too. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > > > Friends, please listen attentively to the story of Khujjuttara, the Excellent One, who was a Great Disciple - one of the Buddha's Foremost Female Disciples - as well as declared to be His Most Learned Female Disciple, by the Exalted One, who was perfectly enlightened by Himself. > > When I read these stories of these exalted people my eyes well up with > tears. Friends, it is only because of the Ariyas that any true merit is made! It is only because of the Noble Doctrine that any lasting > happiness is attained! What could be better than paying reverence to > these Exalted Ones, to the Noble Sangha? What could be better? Nothing > at all. It is through association with the wise that the Dhamma is > heard and learned. It is through this that peace is attained. <..> #107707 From: "sarah" Date: Sat May 22, 2010 10:50 am Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear friends, > How to induce right speach? ... S: This is what a friend wrote wisely just a couple of weeks ago: "virati cetasika, this is what refrains, not we, so this is so great opportunity for us that we've heard good Dhamma. We can learn just dhatu, that refrains not we. And i think the same consideration shall be done with right livelihood. I spent some time with my friends recently and I saw that there was lot of bad speach and action, but I understand that this is only mental reality and if I consider more and more just element, dhatu, not me that speaks, it helps. just conditioned fleeting moments. I think only right understanding can condition right speach or right livelihood." .... And that friend who wrote so wisely was you!! Metta Sarah ====== #107708 From: "sarah" Date: Sat May 22, 2010 11:16 am Subject: Re: Metta Meditation sarahprocter... Dear Sandah, Alex* & all, Welcome to DSG, I don't remember writing to you before! I don't think there were any responses to your good questions: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sandahaung" wrote: > I'd like you to comment on these questions about metta bhavana. > > 1. Is metta a practice preached and promoted by Buddha or is it a concept that was added to Buddhism by later Buddhists? ... S: The Buddha definitely preached about and promoted the value of metta. For example, in the Khuddakapatha, we read the Metta Sutta as given by the Buddha to some bhikkhus who had been disturbed by some deities on the hills of the Himalayas. Even the first words of the verses are very meaningful: "He would be able, right, upright, And meek and gentle and not proud, Contented, easy to support, Unbusy, fruga, and serene In faculties, prudent, modest, Not fawning upon families. He would no slight things do at all That other wise men might deplore." ... > 2. Is metta bhavana comparable to other kinds of bhavana such as vipassana? In other words, can someone practising metta bhavana achieve what a vipassana yogi could? .... S: The development of metta alone can never lead to insight. This is why in the Anathapindika Sutta in AN, the Buddha begins by elaborating on many great kinds of dana as being very worthy, wholesome, but how these are nothing to a finger-snap of metta and that metta in turn is nothing to the understanding of impermanence. This is because it's only the insight into dhammas as being anicca, dukkha and anatta that is the path. Other kinds of kusala don't lead to an end of suffering. .... > 3. Can nibhanna be achieved through metta bhavana? Is there any concrete example of someone attaining nibhana by practising metta bhavana? ... S: Metta bhavana without the development of insight does not lead to nibbana. However, metta itself can be an object of insight. In such a way, any dhamma can lead to nibbana if it's understood as being conditioned and anatta. There's a sutta in MN about the development of metta in this regard. (*I'm too busy to find it now, perhaps Alex can give the links). Sandah, please share a little more about your interest in metta and your background interest in the Dhamma if you have time. Metta Sarah ===== #107709 From: "sarah" Date: Sat May 22, 2010 11:37 am Subject: Re: The role of samatha for insight sarahprocter... Hi Robin & all, > R: > We always possess citta ekagatta, but not samadhi. Samadhi only occurs when there is effort to suspend the Five Hidrances. One there is this effort; then there is parikamma samadhi. Here is quotation from The Noble Eightfold Path, The Way to the End of Suffering by Bhikkhu Bodhi Chapter VII: Right Concentration (Samma Samadhi) > ------------- > >KH: I think my explanation was more in line with the Abhidhamma. > Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary also agrees that samadhi is a universal cetasika. > > As I read Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation it seems more in line with modern-day meditation schools than with the Theravada texts. I remember your having a discussion with Sarah on this essay. You should continue it; Sarah will set you straight. ... S: Not at all sure about that. I agree with Robin that usually when we read about samadhi, it's referring to the kusala samadhi. However, to be precise, pls read the following which I wrote and quoted before #80580: ... >S: A few more examples (From C.Rhys Davids' transl. of Dhammasangani): *** Part 1 ***Good*** States of Consciousness[11] what on that occasion is <...> self-collectedness (cittass' ekaggataa)? [Cy: "a name for concentration (samaadhi)"] The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on that occasion is the absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet (samatho), the faculty and the power of concentration, right concentration - this is the self-collectedness that there then is. ======= Part 11 ***Bad*** States of Consciousness <...> *self-collectedness ((cittass' ekaggataa)? Answer as in [11] (above), substituting "wrong concentration" for "right concentration". In full from Kline's translation (Cittuppaada Ka.n.da, p. 197), it reads: "375 What at that time is one-pointedness of mind(cittassekaggataa)? That which at that time is stability of mind (cittassa .thiti) , steadfastness of mind (sa.n.thiti), absorbed steadfastness of mind(ava.t.thiti), unshakableness (avisaahaaro), non-distraction(avikkhepo), imperturbability(avisaaha.tamaanasataa), tranquillity of mind (samatho), faculty of concentration (samaadhindriya.m), power of concentration (samaadhibala.m), ***wrong*** concentration (micchaasamaadhi) - this at that time is one-pointedness of mind (cittassekaggataa)." ... S: In other words, concentration or one-pointedness (citassekaggataa) [or samadhi] arises with akusala as well as kusala cittas. It has all the same characteristics, the only difference in the definition here being that it is *wrong* in this case.< **** Metta Sarah ======== #107710 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat May 22, 2010 2:34 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Dieter (107701) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > D: I agree , but think we may add neutral kamma as we could say it carries the delusion/avijja/moha > =============== J: 'Neutral kamma' is a new expression to me. Is it from the texts? What does it mean exactly? > =============== > J: What is the difference between the 2 versions? > > D: the difference is that the Abhidhamma introduced the moral component into D.O. ( the ' blue print' of the orgin of the whole mass of suffering ) which actually belongs to the sila sequence of the 8fold Noble Path. In other words D.O. is concerned with the first and second Noble Truth, whereas the cessation and its way out , the 3rd and 4th Noble Truth , the way out of D.O. /Samsara. > Sila, wholesome action > =============== J: I feel we are drifting away from the present moment and into a more speculative realm here. I don't really see the relevance of the DO/Abhidhamma debate to our chat. > =============== > It is not the point of react less but to react skillful , mindful to that what the moment /citta is providing as the 6sense situation. > To pay attention/ to remain focused on what is going on..through that intention/will may its habit/direction, which as you mentioned 'can only (hopefully) have some effect in the future' > =============== J: To react skilfully is the same as reacting with less akusala. As regards paying attention/remaining focussed on what's going on, I'd be interested to know how you see that applying to, say, composing or reading a post (as we're doing now). You mention the idea of 'breaking' the chain of DO at one of its links (where there's a 'weakness'). This is one of those ideas put forward by the so-called modern commentators. What the Buddha said on the matter was that the flow of the chain can be reversed starting with the abandoning of ignorance (this leading eventually to escape from samsara). > =============== > D: as mentioned before the introduction of kusala and akusala into D.O. - leads to, as I see it , a bit of mixture with the Path. > Kusala and akusala are treated in the sila part and are building the ground for the samadhi part, i.e. the (akusala) habits (mainly) abolished by training of the discipline. By right effort this discipline is translated into 4 practical ways allowing the skills of satipatthana to be learnt ( to have a focus on what is going on within the 4 frameworks ) and by jhana what is behind..all that in order to feed the panna part , leading to insight for the perfection of understanding/view and thought/resolve . > These are - as I see it according to the teaching the conditions for cessation of ignorance ,for cessation of sankhara , the kamma formation, > the way of will /cetana throughn wholesome, unwholesome or neutral action. The D.O. chain broken .. > =============== J: As mentioned above, this is not how the Buddha taught it! Jon #107711 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat May 22, 2010 2:37 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Alex (107702) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > >J:I wonder if you'd agree with the following: Every moment of kusala >or akusala consciousness accumulates, and these accumulations of >kusala and akusala have an effect on the nature of the consciousness >that arises in the future. > > Only if there can be a degree influencing of present moment to help kusala or akusala citta. Otherwise the idea sounds like fatalism that Buddha has refuted > =============== J: Please consider again the proposition I put forward: Every moment of kusala or akusala consciousness accumulates, and these accumulations of kusala and akusala have an effect on the nature of the consciousness that arises in the future. There is no suggestion of fatalism in this. A person who understands the teachings in these terms appreciates the importance of the development of kusala. A fatalist, on the other hand, sees no purpose in developing kusala since he takes the future to be preordained. > =============== > ex: that one kills now (akusala) solely due to the past akusala actions, and that current akusala is practically a vipaka rather than something that can be influenced and avoided (in the case of akusala). > =============== J: You seem to be suggesting that current consciousness can be influenced to be kusala or to not be akusala. Do you really mean current consciousness or do you perhaps mean future consciousness? > =============== > I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html > =============== J: What's described in this sutta is not what I understand by fatalism (but that's probably neither here nor there to our discussion). Jon #107712 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 22, 2010 11:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Alex) - I'd like to butt in with my perspective on a couple points being discussed. In a message dated 5/22/2010 10:38:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Alex (107702) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > >J:I wonder if you'd agree with the following: Every moment of kusala >or akusala consciousness accumulates, and these accumulations of >kusala and akusala have an effect on the nature of the consciousness >that arises in the future. > > Only if there can be a degree influencing of present moment to help kusala or akusala citta. Otherwise the idea sounds like fatalism that Buddha has refuted > =============== J: Please consider again the proposition I put forward: Every moment of kusala or akusala consciousness accumulates, and these accumulations of kusala and akusala have an effect on the nature of the consciousness that arises in the future. There is no suggestion of fatalism in this. A person who understands the teachings in these terms appreciates the importance of the development of kusala. A fatalist, on the other hand, sees no purpose in developing kusala since he takes the future to be preordained. ------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. Knowing that the nature (wholesome or unwholesome) of current action conditions future developments is important, for that knowing itself conditions future wholesome activities. -------------------------------------------------------------- > =============== > ex: that one kills now (akusala) solely due to the past akusala actions, and that current akusala is practically a vipaka rather than something that can be influenced and avoided (in the case of akusala). > =============== J: You seem to be suggesting that current consciousness can be influenced to be kusala or to not be akusala. Do you really mean current consciousness or do you perhaps mean future consciousness? --------------------------------------------------------------- Current phenomena condition only future phenomena. Current phenomena cannot be caused (i.e., causally conditioned) by themselves or by co-occurring phenomena but only by what came before. Now, what came before includes, of course, immediately preceding mental activities such as thinking and willing, and we might *think* these are simultaneous with the current actions, but they are not. Moreover, this thinking and this willing are themselves preconditioned. What is already current is a fait accompli, and nothing can alter it in any way. It doesn't matter whether we call that "fatalism" or not. It simply is the case. -------------------------------------------------------------- > =============== > I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html > =============== J: What's described in this sutta is not what I understand by fatalism (but that's probably neither here nor there to our discussion). ------------------------------------------------------------------- The point of that material is, I believe, that ones own kamma is not the only source of conditioning. Other (variously caused) conditions have arisen, and these other conditions, together with one's past kamma, serve to condition what arises now. In any case, the bottom line in all this is that there is no actor behind the scenes who intervenes in things. There is only impersonal, lawful conditionality. The sense that there is an "I" who does things, an actor who steps in, is very deeply embedded and sneaks up on us all the time regardless of how invested we think we are in the anatta notion. Realizing this is likely to encourage us to be ever more vigilant. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107713 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat May 22, 2010 3:23 pm Subject: Re: Metta Meditation truth_aerator Dear Sarah, All, > > Dear Sandah, Alex* & all, > ... > S: Metta bhavana without the development of insight does not lead >to nibbana. However, metta itself can be an object of insight. In >such a way, any dhamma can lead to nibbana if it's understood as >being conditioned and anatta. There's a sutta in MN about the >development of metta in this regard. (*I'm too busy to find it now, >perhaps Alex can give the links). Benefits: One sleeps happily; one wakes happily; one does not suffer bad dreams; one is dear to human beings; one is dear to non-human beings; the gods protect one; no fire or poison or weapon harms one; one's mind gets quickly concentrated; the expression of one's face is serene; one dies unperturbed; and even if one fails to attain higher states, one will at least reach the state of the Brahma world. Monks, when universal love leading to liberation of mind is ardently practiced, developed, unrelentingly resorted to, used as one's vehicle, made the foundation of one's life, fully established, well consolidated and perfected, then these eleven blessings may be expected. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.016.than.html -------------------------------------------------------- Here, bhikkhus, a certain person abides with his heart imbued with loving-kindness extending... over the all-encompassing world. Now whatever therein [during that state of contemplation] exists classifiable as form, classifiable as a feeling [of pleasure, pain, or neutrality], classifiable as perception, classifiable as determinative acts, or classifiable as consciousness, such ideas he sees as impermanent, as liable to suffering, as a disease, as a cancer, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as being worn away, as void, as not-self. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears [as a non-returner] in the retinue of the Gods of the Pure Abodes. And this kind of reappearance is not shared by ordinary men [who have not reached the Noble Eightfold Path]. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.126.than.html =========================================================== "Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the heart-deliverance of loving-kindness; in shining and beaming and radiance the heart-deliverance of loving-kindness far excels them." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.1.001-027.than.html#iti-027 With metta, Alex #107714 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat May 22, 2010 3:33 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, > Hi Alex > > (107702) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > >J:I wonder if you'd agree with the following: Every moment of kusala >or akusala consciousness accumulates, and these accumulations of >kusala and akusala have an effect on the nature of the consciousness >that arises in the future. > > > > Only if there can be a degree influencing of present moment to help kusala or akusala citta. Otherwise the idea sounds like fatalism that Buddha has refuted > > =============== > > J: Please consider again the proposition I put forward: Every >moment of kusala or akusala consciousness accumulates, and these >accumulations of kusala and akusala have an effect on the nature of >the consciousness that arises in the future. Right. But disclaimer should be placed that it is possible to alter the future, so the proposition doesn't become fatalistic ie: "Everything that happens in the present is due to what happened in the past and what will happen in the future is solely due to present." . Here what the real message is that what happens in the future is due to what happened in the past. Since the past cannot be altered, neither is the future - hence the fatalistic conclusion. I do hope that you reject fatalism. > There is no suggestion of fatalism in this. A person who >understands the teachings in these terms appreciates the importance >of the development of kusala. A fatalist, on the other hand, sees >no purpose in developing kusala since he takes the future to be >preordained. Great. So kusala can be developed and it is not set in stone. > > =============== > > ex: that one kills now (akusala) solely due to the past akusala actions, and that current akusala is practically a vipaka rather than something that can be influenced and avoided (in the case of akusala). > > =============== > > J: You seem to be suggesting that current consciousness can be >influenced to be kusala or to not be akusala. Do you really mean >current consciousness or do you perhaps mean future consciousness? What has just happened cannot be altered as it is gone. But the reaction toward it that happens perhaps a second later, can be altered (since it hasn't happened and ceased, yet). So I do mean future consciousness (1 second, more or less). > > =============== > > I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html > > =============== > > J: What's described in this sutta is not what I understand by fatalism (but that's probably neither here nor there to our discussion). > > Jon > But it seems like the kind of no-control teaching that I hear here. That one can't refrain from akusala or influence more kusala to arise as a response to what has just happened. We cannot alter the vipaka that has just happened. But kamma is not vipaka, it can be changed. IMHO. With metta, Alex #107715 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 22, 2010 11:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Jon) - In a message dated 5/22/2010 11:33:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Right. But disclaimer should be placed that it is possible to alter the future, so the proposition doesn't become fatalistic ie: "Everything that happens in the present is due to what happened in the past and what will happen in the future is solely due to present." . Here what the real message is that what happens in the future is due to what happened in the past. Since the past cannot be altered, neither is the future - hence the fatalistic conclusion. I do hope that you reject fatalism. ================================= Alex, what is it other than what has happened in the past that determines what happens now? Specifically what? I can think of nothing. Can you provide a precise answer? With metta, Howard Conditionality /"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that."/ (From the Bodhi Sutta, Udana 1.1) #107716 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat May 22, 2010 4:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. truth_aerator Hi Howard, Jon, Dieter, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Jon) - > > In a message dated 5/22/2010 11:33:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Right. But disclaimer should be placed that it is possible to alter the > future, so the proposition doesn't become fatalistic ie: > > "Everything that happens in the present is due to what happened in the > past and what will happen in the future is solely due to present." . Here what > the real message is that what happens in the future is due to what > happened in the past. Since the past cannot be altered, neither is the future - > hence the fatalistic conclusion. > > I do hope that you reject fatalism. > ================================= > Alex, what is it other than what has happened in the past that > determines what happens now? Specifically what? I can think of nothing. Can you > provide a precise answer? > > With metta, > Howard There are past causes and present actions. The way one relates right now (in kusala or akusala way) + the causes from the past, determine what is happening now and influence the future. With metta, Alex #107717 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 22, 2010 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 5/22/2010 12:26:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: > Alex, what is it other than what has happened in the past that > determines what happens now? Specifically what? I can think of nothing. Can you > provide a precise answer? > > With metta, > Howard There are past causes and present actions. The way one relates right now (in kusala or akusala way) + the causes from the past, determine what is happening now and influence the future. ---------------------------------------------------- This answer isn't clear to me. What you call "the way one relates right now": Is that caused entirely by past conditions or not? If not, then what else enters in as cause? (It may seem that I am "pushing you against the wall," on this, but this is an urgent point, I think, and it needs to be pressed to resolution. ---------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex =============================== With metta, Howard Conditionality /"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that."/ (From the Bodhi Sutta, Udana 1.1) #107718 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat May 22, 2010 4:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. truth_aerator Hi Howard, Jon, Dieter, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 5/22/2010 12:26:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > > Alex, what is it other than what has happened in the past that > > determines what happens now? Specifically what? I can think of nothing. > Can you > > provide a precise answer? > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > There are past causes and present actions. The way one relates right now > (in kusala or akusala way) + the causes from the past, determine what is > happening now and influence the future. > ---------------------------------------------------- > This answer isn't clear to me. What you call "the way one relates > right now": Is that caused entirely by past conditions or not? If not, then > what else enters in as cause? (It may seem that I am "pushing you against the > wall," on this, but this is an urgent point, I think, and it needs to be > pressed to resolution. > ---------------------------------------------------- The past effects, vipaka, that arises now is set in stone. We cannot affect the past, IMHO (though some strange theories suggest that past can be changed, but I don't agree). The present (Kamma) can be altered in at least some circumstances. One can react with kusala or akusala way. The present reaction that is about to occur isn't set in stone (like the past, right?). Otherwise one may intend to kill SOLELY due to vipaka, rather than present intentional choice (kamma). If kamma cannot be altered, then from all intents and purposes, it is same as vipaka. Of course the choice is conditioned by various factors. Of course it is not totally "free". But if a person knows what is good and what is bad, etc, etc - then there can be a choice made. In some circumstances and for some beings, the available choice may be minimal (maybe to as little as "to do or to abstain, etc".) Yes, this topic is urgent. There is a very fine line between Anatta and pubbekatahetuvada. IMHO. With metta, Alex #107719 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 22, 2010 4:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Jon & Dieter) - In a message dated 5/22/2010 12:43:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, Jon, Dieter, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 5/22/2010 12:26:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > > Alex, what is it other than what has happened in the past that > > determines what happens now? Specifically what? I can think of nothing. > Can you > > provide a precise answer? > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > There are past causes and present actions. The way one relates right now > (in kusala or akusala way) + the causes from the past, determine what is > happening now and influence the future. > ---------------------------------------------------- > This answer isn't clear to me. What you call "the way one relates > right now": Is that caused entirely by past conditions or not? If not, then > what else enters in as cause? (It may seem that I am "pushing you against the > wall," on this, but this is an urgent point, I think, and it needs to be > pressed to resolution. > ---------------------------------------------------- The past effects, vipaka, that arises now is set in stone. We cannot affect the past, IMHO (though some strange theories suggest that past can be changed, but I don't agree). The present (Kamma) can be altered in at least some circumstances. One can react with kusala or akusala way. The present reaction that is about to occur isn't set in stone (like the past, right?). ------------------------------------------------------------- What does "not set in stone" mean? Is it determined by what went before or is it unconditioned? I see no third. I opt for conditioned, not unconditioned. -------------------------------------------------------------- Otherwise one may intend to kill SOLELY due to vipaka, rather than present intentional choice (kamma). -------------------------------------------------------------- The present intention, while not fully conditioned by past *kamma* is nonetheless entirely conditioned. The alternative is an element of randomness. I don't believe the Buddha taught that, nor do I believe it to be so, nor do I believe it to be especially desirable. ------------------------------------------------------------ If kamma cannot be altered, then from all intents and purposes, it is same as vipaka. ------------------------------------------------------------- One's kamma is not the only type of condition. ----------------------------------------------------------- Of course the choice is conditioned by various factors. Of course it is not totally "free". -------------------------------------------------------------- If "free" means unconditioned in any respect, I would say that so-called free choice is non-existent. Choosing is either entirely determined by preexisting/preoccurring conditions or is partly random. I don't believe that randomness is part of the Dhamma. ------------------------------------------------------------ But if a person knows what is good and what is bad, etc, etc - then there can be a choice made. ----------------------------------------------------------- The choosing, however, is not random, but determined. ----------------------------------------------------------- In some circumstances and for some beings, the available choice may be minimal (maybe to as little as "to do or to abstain, etc".) --------------------------------------------------------- Whatever the alternatives chosen among, how the choice is made is entirely determined by what has gone before. ------------------------------------------------------- Yes, this topic is urgent. There is a very fine line between Anatta and pubbekatahetuvada. -------------------------------------------------------- I mostly don't see the connection, whether wide or thin. There is no self (anatta) and also kamma is not the only mode of conditionality. Two different though related facts. ------------------------------------------------------- IMHO. With metta, Alex ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107720 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat May 22, 2010 10:37 pm Subject: Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi Sarah (and Mike), ------ <. . .> KH (to Mike): > > I think there is a place, for example, where the texts use a simile of a rolling wheel, and say that the part touching the road is like the fleeting existence of dhammas. S: > Visuddhimagga, VII, 39: "As to the shortness of the moment: in the ultimate sense the life moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls [that is touches the ground] only on one point of [the circumference of] its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according as it was said: 'In a past conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a future conscious moment not he did live, not he does live. In a present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will live. "'Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow' (Nd.1,42)." --------- Thank you, Sarah, what an excellent summation of the Dhamma! It should be mandatory reading for everyone who professes to be interested in Buddhism. How many of such people accept that this is what the Dhamma is all about? Very few! And the few of us who do accept it are regarded with suspicion. :-) Ken H #107721 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat May 22, 2010 11:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. truth_aerator Hi Howard, Dieter, all, >H: What does "not set in stone" mean? That it can go either in 2 (or more) ways. >H: Is it determined by what went before or is it unconditioned? It is conditioned by what went before it and intention wills now. >A: Otherwise one may intend to kill SOLELY due to vipaka, rather >than present intentional choice (kamma). > -------------------------------------------------------------- >H: The present intention, while not fully conditioned by past >*kamma* is nonetheless entirely conditioned. The alternative is an >element of randomness. I don't believe the Buddha taught that, nor >do I believe it to be so, nor do I believe it to be especially >desirable. What may need to be clarified is what is meant by "conditioned" and how far it goes. For example a kitchen knife is one of the required conditions for a person in rage to knife another one. But even though it is a condition, it doesn't force one to do it. One may cut a loaf of bread with the same knife instead. > If "free" means unconditioned in any respect, Right. That is why I reject the idea of absolutely "free" will. But is there a possibility of choice (within predetermined and conditioned possibilities)? There can be seeing without a Seer, hearing without a Hearer, Thinking without the Thinker. Why not choice without a Chooser and will without The One Who Wills? >A: Yes, this topic is urgent. There is a very fine line between >Anatta and pubbekatahetuvada. > -------------------------------------------------------- >H: I mostly don't see the connection, whether wide or thin. There >is no self (anatta) and also kamma is not the only mode of >conditionality. Two different though related facts. > ------------------------------------------------------- It goes much further than the question of Kamma. What pubbekatahetuvada states is that all that happens now is due to past unalterable causes. One can't avoid being a killer or a saint if it was meant to happen (ie appropriate past causes). Of course this goes against the Buddhist teaching that a person can change and reach awakening. Our fate isn't pre-determined like that of the rock rolling down from the mountain and unable to do anything to increase or decrease the speed. With metta, Alex #107722 From: si-la-nanda Date: Sat May 22, 2010 11:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? silananda_t Dear Dhammafarers, Some useful guides for you here: The Jhanas Travelogue to the Four Jhanas - by Ajahn Brahm The Five Mental Hindrances & Their Conquest *- *by Bhikkhu Nyanaponika mahakaruna, silananda On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 7:08 PM, sarah wrote: > > > Dear Ken O, > > On "The All" > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, > Ken O wrote: > > > >S: Read above again :). Just namas and rupas, Ken! They are "the All". > > > > KO:? Now?we have the?The All.? The All can include concepts > because listening is a conventional action taking a conceptual objects.? > So is listening a paramatha dhamma level or a conventional level.? > ... > S: When the Buddha encouraged us to understand "The All", he was referring > to the understanding, the penetration of the 12 ayatanas, the 5 khandhas, > not to conventional actions and concepts. > .... <...> #107723 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat May 22, 2010 11:39 pm Subject: The Silent Smile ;-) ... ! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Awareness by Breathing is a Unique Thing! Once in Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said this: "Bhikkhus, there is one unique thing, which when trained and cultivated, is of great fruit and great advantage. What is that one unique thing? It is Awareness by Breathing ( Anapanasati)! And how, Bhikkhus, is this Awareness by Breathing trained, developed, cultivated and refined so that it is of really great fruit and immense long-term advantage? Bhikkhus, when a Bhikkhu, who have gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, then he sits down cross-legged, having straightened his body and back, and set up awareness around the nostrils, then just plain aware of only that itself, he breathes in, and then just solely aware of only that breathing itself, he breathes out... 1: Breathing in long, he knows, notes and understands: I inhale long! Breathing out long, he knows, notes and understands: I exhale long! 2: Breathing in short, he knows, notes and understands: I inhale short! Breathing out short, he knows, notes and understands: I exhale short! 3: He trains thus: Experiencing this entire body, I will breathe in! He trains thus: Experiencing this entire body, I will breathe out! 4: He trains thus: Calming all bodily activity, I will breathe in! He trains thus: Calming all bodily activity, I will breathe out! 5: He trains thus: Experiencing enraptured joy, I will breathe in! He trains thus: Experiencing enraptured joy, I will breathe out! 6: He trains thus: Experiencing a happy pleasure, I will breathe in! He trains thus: Experiencing a happy pleasure, I will breathe out! 7: He trains thus: Experiencing all mental activity, I will breathe in! He trains thus: Experiencing all mental activity, I will breathe out! 8: He trains thus: Calming all mental activity, I will breathe in! He trains thus: Calming all mental activity, I will breathe out! 9: He trains thus: Experiencing the present mood, I will breathe in! He trains thus: Experiencing the present mood, I will breathe out! 10: He trains thus: Elating and satisfying the mind, I will breathe in! He trains thus: Elating and satisfying the mind, I will breathe out! 11: He trains thus: Concentrating and focusing mind, I will breathe in! He trains thus: Concentrating and focusing mind, I will breathe out! 12: He trains thus: Releasing, and liberating the mind, I will breathe in! He trains thus: Releasing, and liberating the mind, I will breathe out! 13: He trains thus: Contemplating impermanence, I will breathe in! He trains thus: Contemplating impermanence, I will breathe out! 14: He trains thus: Contemplating disillusion, I will breathe in! He trains thus: Contemplating disillusion, I will breathe out! 15: He trains thus: Contemplating ceasing, I will breathe in! He trains thus: Contemplating ceasing, I will breathe out! 16: He trains thus: Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe in! He trains thus: Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe out! It is, Bhikkhus, when Awareness by Breathing is trained, developed and refined in exactly this way, that it is of great fruit and advantage!" Comments: These 16 steps should be memorized fully. Print out and bring to pillow! Breath meditation produces both calm (Samatha ) and insight (Vipassan a) by stilling the bursts of distractions, which abrogates all directed thinking. It is capable of inducing all the four levels of mental absorption (Jh ana). Continuous awareness can be established by this technique, which has no adverse side-effects, is simple yet profound, and especially well suited for those plagued by stress, agitation, restlessness, worries, speculation, anxiety, fear, hesitation, doubts, uncertainty and confusion. Nobody!, who have trained this technique, have ever regretted it! Most just smiles silently... ;-), not without reason, like the Buddha image illustrated below! Verily: Unique is Awareness by Breathing! <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:311] section 54: Anapanasamyutta. Thread 1: A Unique Thing! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #107724 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 22, 2010 10:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Dieter) - In a message dated 5/22/2010 7:08:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, Dieter, all, >H: What does "not set in stone" mean? That it can go either in 2 (or more) ways. >H: Is it determined by what went before or is it unconditioned? It is conditioned by what went before it and intention wills now. ---------------------------------------------------------- Yes, and that intention itself is conditioned by what went before. -------------------------------------------------------- >A: Otherwise one may intend to kill SOLELY due to vipaka, rather >than present intentional choice (kamma). > -------------------------------------------------------------- >H: The present intention, while not fully conditioned by past >*kamma* is nonetheless entirely conditioned. The alternative is an >element of randomness. I don't believe the Buddha taught that, nor >do I believe it to be so, nor do I believe it to be especially >desirable. What may need to be clarified is what is meant by "conditioned" and how far it goes. -------------------------------------------------------------- The story is that a given phenomenon, P, occurs if and only a certain group of phenomena, the preconditions for P, have already occurred. The phenomena in that group are the preconditions for the arising of P. If they all have occurred, then P occurs, but if even one is missing, P does not occur. --------------------------------------------------------------- For example a kitchen knife is one of the required conditions for a person in rage to knife another one. But even though it is a condition, it doesn't force one to do it. One may cut a loaf of bread with the same knife instead. ----------------------------------------------------------------- The conditionality ultimately occurs at a less global level - at the level of namas and rupas, with conditions and results being very specific. -------------------------------------------------------------- > If "free" means unconditioned in any respect, Right. That is why I reject the idea of absolutely "free" will. But is there a possibility of choice (within predetermined and conditioned possibilities)? -------------------------------------------------------------- Choice consists of a mix of thinking and volition. None of that is random. It all proceeds according to preconditions. I don't understand what uncaused choosing would be, Alex. Every choice you make has causes. ----------------------------------------------------------------- There can be seeing without a Seer, hearing without a Hearer, Thinking without the Thinker. -------------------------------------------------------------------- That is irrelevant to this matter. The seeing, hearing, and thinking, all quite impersonal and not involving "self," occur due to preconditions - and not randomly. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Why not choice without a Chooser and will without The One Who Wills? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Of course there is choice! But the choice is not random. The occurring of the activity of choosing, the precise nature of that activity, and the end result are all conditioned, with none of it without cause. ------------------------------------------------------------------ >A: Yes, this topic is urgent. There is a very fine line between >Anatta and pubbekatahetuvada. > -------------------------------------------------------- >H: I mostly don't see the connection, whether wide or thin. There >is no self (anatta) and also kamma is not the only mode of >conditionality. Two different though related facts. > ------------------------------------------------------- It goes much further than the question of Kamma. What pubbekatahetuvada states is that all that happens now is due to past unalterable causes. --------------------------------------------------------------- My understanding is that it only pertains to kamma. In any case, whatever does not depend solely on preconditions is, to that extent, random, and I believe the Dhamma does not countenance random occurrences. ----------------------------------------------------------------- One can't avoid being a killer or a saint if it was meant to happen (ie appropriate past causes). -------------------------------------------------------------- One can avoid it DEPENDING ON CONDITIONS. If one takes certain actions and avoids certain other ones, then it can be avoided. Whether one does or not depends on one's "make up" and on one's experiences and on one's intentions and desires, and all that depends on yet other preconditions. None of this is random. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Of course this goes against the Buddhist teaching that a person can change and reach awakening. -------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, a person can ... IF he/she should experience certain things including the Dhamma. It is all a matter of IF. This "can" is not a "no-matter-what possibility". --------------------------------------------------------------- Our fate isn't pre-determined like that of the rock rolling down from the mountain and unable to do anything to increase or decrease the speed. -------------------------------------------------------------- Again, I ask you what events depend on *besides* preconditions. I haven't seen a reply to that. What IS "our fate" determined by if not conditions? When your arm raises up, it does so due to an uncountable number of conditions that have occurred or are in effect prior to the lifting, and the same is true of each of those conditions. What else is there besides this? And any increase or decrease in the speed of lift (to get back to your falling-rock comparison) is also predetermined. Among the requisite predeterminations are willing, but the willing itself has preconditions! Nothing arises randomly. Alex, it appears that you are hypothesizing a willing or acting that is without cause. That is not a Buddhist notion as I understand the Dhamma. -------------------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex =================================== With metta, Howard Conditionality /"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that."/ (From the Bodhi Sutta, Udana 1.1) #107725 From: "Mike" Date: Sun May 23, 2010 3:31 am Subject: Re: Little selves? mikenz66 Hi KenH, Sarah, Thank, Sarah, for quoting the passage you were thinking of. I was aware of that passage, but to me it seemed inconsistent with statements like: "dhammas rolling on". In that simile the dhammas rise and fall, they don't roll. If anything "rolls" it is the conditioning. Mike --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah (and Mike), > > ------ > <. . .> > KH (to Mike): > > I think there is a place, for example, where the texts use a simile of a rolling wheel, and say that the part touching the road is like the fleeting existence of dhammas. > > > S: > Visuddhimagga, VII, 39: > > "As to the shortness of the moment: in the ultimate sense the life > moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the > occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls [that is touches the ground] only on one point of [the circumference of] its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according as it was said: 'In a past conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a future conscious moment not he did live, not he does live. In a present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will live. > > "'Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive > Are all alike, gone never to return. > No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not > Produced; when that is present, then it lives; > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: > The highest sense this concept will allow' (Nd.1,42)." > --------- > > Thank you, Sarah, what an excellent summation of the Dhamma! It should be mandatory reading for everyone who professes to be interested in Buddhism. How many of such people accept that this is what the Dhamma is all about? Very few! And the few of us who do accept it are regarded with suspicion. :-) > > Ken H > #107726 From: "Mike" Date: Sun May 23, 2010 4:38 am Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas mikenz66 Hi Sarah, Thank you for getting back to this. I'll probably have to digest this during further study... Best wishes for your move back to Australia. Metta Mike --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > #107495 > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > S: We tend to think about right livelihood in a conventional sense, >but actually, the practising of right livelihood is momentary. > > > >A: Right. As a series of cittas that can either be rooted in 3 wholesome or 3 unwholesome roots. > ... > S: What we refer to conventionally as right livelihood consists of different kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya cittas. The kusala cittas may have 2 or 3 wholesome roots, depending on whether panna arises. The akusala cittas can only have one or two roots at a time. Ignorance always arises with these, but lobha or dosa do not always arise and never together. > > When we refer to right livelihood of the eightfold path, the citta always has 3 wholesome roots, inc. panna. > ... > > > S: They are referring to momentary virati (abstention) cetasikas as >part of the 8-fold Path. However, just like in the case of any other >cittas or cetasikas, they arise in processes (vithi) and in the course >of uttering a few words, there are many, many such processes. > > > > > > >A: Why not just call "right livelihood, etc" as specific instances of non-greed, non-hate and/or non-delusion? > ... > S: They are specific instances as you suggest when the virati cetasikas arises, abstaining from wrong speech or action during one's work. It doesn't matter how it's named, but the virati distinguishes these moments, these cittas from other kusala cittas which are also rooted in alobha, adosa and amoha. > ... > >A: After all, in what way is abstention functionally different from > > one or all of these -> alobha, adosa, amoha? > ... > S: When the virati (abstention) arises, there is the intentional avoidance of harming through speech or deeds. It only arises when there is the thought or idea of wrong speech or action. For example, one is about to say something unkind and abstains. Of course, many different cittas are involved and only panna can understand the virati itself. The arahat will not have any virati arising of course, because there is no idea of any wrong speech or action. > ... > > > " "And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome. > > > > 6. "And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; non-covetousness is wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the wholesome. > ... > S: For the sotapanna, no virati(abstention) from killing, because no thought of killing. At the moment of sotapatti magga citta, all eight factors arise together and after this there is never a thought of killing again. So the virati will then only arise in relation to those kinds of speech and deeds not yet eradicated. > ... > > > > 7. "And what is the root of the wholesome? Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion is a root of the wholesome. This is called the root of the wholesome." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html > > > > All of these actions come from 3 roots that are either wholesome or unwholesome. No mention of specific cetasikas called "right livelihood" etc. That seems superfluous when you already have the the root of wholesome being "Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion" > .... > S: As I said, when lobha, dosa and moha have been eradicated, there is no virati, nothing harmful to abstain from. > > However, the Buddha taught an eightfold path with 3 kinds of virati which can arise, abstaining from harmful speech and deeds. > > There are many different kinds of cittas, of cetasikas, which may have the same roots, but which have specific qualities. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > #107727 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun May 23, 2010 6:19 am Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? gazita2002 hallo Lucas, "Frivolous talk is talk about idle senseless things; things which do not lead to the goal of liberation." - found this among my scribbles. Personally, I think if this makes sense to us it may well be a condition for us to refrain from wrong speech and may induce right speech. Here's some more from my scribble book: "We have realities which are appearing all the time-NOW. We can be aware of any one of these realities - why must we always be looking for something new, something else to be aware of - be aware now." "There is no need to be discouraged because it is not self who performs kusala or akusala. Dont be discouraged, it takes a great deal of patience," Cheers, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear friends, > How to induce right speach? > > Best wishes > Lukas > #107728 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun May 23, 2010 7:37 am Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? szmicio Dear Azita, > "Frivolous talk is talk about idle senseless things; things which do not lead to the goal of liberation." - found this among my scribbles. L: Frivolous speach is one of the hardest thing to refrain for me. I still dont know, how to speak less. I enjoy conversations with my friends and those are just useless idle speach. But this is very pleasant. I am sad when I have to be silent. What kind of cetasika agitation is? I also wonder what Howard said that we have to know our own inclinations and exam what we have said, but I dont know how, this is gone now. I cant choose any word, this is conditioned. I dont know when I will speak in a right way, this can happen or not. I know that I cannot choose my words, they are conditioned, but I can have metta for people when they speak much or saying disagreeable words to me. This is all conditioned. I have metta for others, but I dont have metta to myself. Best wishes Lukas #107729 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 23, 2010 8:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to induce right speach? nilovg Dear Sarah and Lukas, That is a good one! Now we can see that there is not a lasting personality, just different cittas that change all the time. Nina. Op 22-mei-2010, om 12:50 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > I think only right understanding can condition right speach or > right livelihood." > .... > And that friend who wrote so wisely was you!! #107730 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 23, 2010 8:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to induce right speach? upasaka_howard Dear Lukas (and Azita) - In a message dated 5/23/2010 3:39:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Azita, > "Frivolous talk is talk about idle senseless things; things which do not lead to the goal of liberation." - found this among my scribbles. L: Frivolous speach is one of the hardest thing to refrain for me. I still dont know, how to speak less. I enjoy conversations with my friends and those are just useless idle speech. ---------------------------------------------------------- Lukas, what if in part these conversations express love of people? What if in part they express friendship? The speech itself may just be a vehicle. ---------------------------------------------------------- But this is very pleasant. I am sad when I have to be silent. --------------------------------------------------------- Well, of course, internal and external chattering *might* be a symptom of clinging to self and of a fear that silence is a kind of annihilation. If so, it is helpful to realize, I think, that silence, especially internal silence, is a kind of peace. Perhaps you might consider from time to time just sitting and doing nothing except really being there. If you then find the mind chomping at the bit and straining to DO something, and even so you just sit there and see that happening, that might well lead to a calming down and acceptance of "just being" without any need to think or speak or act in any fashion at all. ---------------------------------------------------------- What kind of cetasika agitation is? I also wonder what Howard said that we have to know our own inclinations and exam what we have said, but I dont know how, this is gone now. ----------------------------------------------------------- Everything is gone as soon as it appears [Omar Khayyam's "moving finger"], yet clear seeing is still possible. Don't *worry* about "how" to see. Just allow silence to arise - don't prevent it by running from it. You won't be destroyed. (The big secret: "You" are not there at all from the very outset! But don't worry about that either.) ---------------------------------------------------------- I cant choose any word, this is conditioned. I dont know when I will speak in a right way, this can happen or not. --------------------------------------------------------- Your speech on DSG has never once been wrong speech that I have seen. Why not just drop all your concern? ------------------------------------------------------- I know that I cannot choose my words, they are conditioned, but I can have metta for people when they speak much or saying disagreeable words to me. This is all conditioned. I have metta for others, but I dont have metta to myself. --------------------------------------------------------- Are you any less worthwhile than anyone else? Having metta for others and none for oneself is, in a perverse way, a type of conceit. :-) Just drop comparing. ----------------------------------------------------------- Best wishes Lukas ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107731 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun May 23, 2010 1:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Howard (107712) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon (and Alex) - > > I'd like to butt in with my perspective on a couple points being > discussed. > =============== J: Thanks very much for butting in. I agree with all you say here (this must be some sort of a record! ;-)). And I thought you expressed it very well. Jon > In a message dated 5/22/2010 10:38:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > ... > There is no suggestion of fatalism in this. A person who understands the > teachings in these terms appreciates the importance of the development of > kusala. A fatalist, on the other hand, sees no purpose in developing kusala > since he takes the future to be preordained. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Yes. Knowing that the nature (wholesome or unwholesome) of current > action conditions future developments is important, for that knowing itself > conditions future wholesome activities. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ... > J: You seem to be suggesting that current consciousness can be influenced > to be kusala or to not be akusala. Do you really mean current > consciousness or do you perhaps mean future consciousness? > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Current phenomena condition only future phenomena. Current phenomena > cannot be caused (i.e., causally conditioned) by themselves or by > co-occurring phenomena but only by what came before. Now, what came before includes, > of course, immediately preceding mental activities such as thinking and > willing, and we might *think* these are simultaneous with the current actions, > but they are not. Moreover, this thinking and this willing are themselves > preconditioned. What is already current is a fait accompli, and nothing can > alter it in any way. It doesn't matter whether we call that "fatalism" or > not. It simply is the case. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ... > J: What's described in this sutta is not what I understand by fatalism > (but that's probably neither here nor there to our discussion). > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > The point of that material is, I believe, that ones own kamma is not > the only source of conditioning. Other (variously caused) conditions have > arisen, and these other conditions, together with one's past kamma, serve to > condition what arises now. > In any case, the bottom line in all this is that there is no actor > behind the scenes who intervenes in things. There is only impersonal, lawful > conditionality. The sense that there is an "I" who does things, an actor who > steps in, is very deeply embedded and sneaks up on us all the time > regardless of how invested we think we are in the anatta notion. Realizing this is > likely to encourage us to be ever more vigilant. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > With metta, > Howard #107732 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun May 23, 2010 1:12 pm Subject: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. Choice truth_aerator Hi Howard, Dieter, all, >H: Again, I ask you what events depend on *besides* preconditions. >I haven't seen a reply to that. What IS "our fate" determined by if >not conditions? There are conditions, sure. But what I am thinking is that same set of conditions may turn out in multiple ways. The result is not unconditioned, it is conditioned, but at the same time not determined. Example: A person may say something or be silent on a certain occasion. Both results depend on prior conditions. One can justify due to past conditions why one did so and so, only after the fact has occurred but not prior. Will *could* have chosen one alternative over the other, the physical and mental possibilities were there. Before making the choice there were alternative possibilities and conditions for both to occur and only after the choice was made was one possibility actually carroed out (while another remained as potential, "could have been") Thank you for your replies. With metta, Alex #107733 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 23, 2010 9:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/23/2010 9:07:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (107712) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon (and Alex) - > > I'd like to butt in with my perspective on a couple points being > discussed. > =============== J: Thanks very much for butting in. I agree with all you say here (this must be some sort of a record! ;-)). And I thought you expressed it very well. --------------------------------------------------------- Oh, geez!! : - / That's my worried face! LOLOL! --------------------------------------------------------- Jon ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107734 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun May 23, 2010 1:15 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. jonoabb Hi Alex (107714) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > Right. But disclaimer should be placed that it is possible to alter the future, so the proposition doesn't become fatalistic ie: > =============== J: The Buddha did not teach that "it is possible to alter the future". He taught the development now of kusala of the level of satipatthaana as the way leading to the end of samsara. If you're referring to the law of kamma and vipaka, that is not about altering the future, it's about consciousness now bringing result in the future. But the consciousness that arises at each moment now does so conditioned by past conditions and is not susceptible to being changed (or influenced) at the moment of its arising. > =============== > "Everything that happens in the present is due to what happened in the past and what will happen in the future is solely due to present." . Here what the real message is that what happens in the future is due to what happened in the past. Since the past cannot be altered, neither is the future - hence the fatalistic conclusion. > > I do hope that you reject fatalism. > =============== J: I reject the idea that the Buddha taught that the future can be altered. Does that make me, in your eyes, a fatalist? ;-)) > =============== > Great. So kusala can be developed and it is not set in stone. > =============== J: Yes, of course, kusala can be developed. Has anyone here ever suggested otherwise? > =============== > What has just happened cannot be altered as it is gone. But the reaction toward it that happens perhaps a second later, can be altered (since it hasn't happened and ceased, yet). > =============== J: So you are saying that one's reaction to things that have happened and have already gone can be altered. Can you point to any instance of the Buddha speaking about this? > =============== > But it seems like the kind of no-control teaching that I hear here. That one can't refrain from akusala or influence more kusala to arise as a response to what has just happened. We cannot alter the vipaka that has just happened. But kamma is not vipaka, it can be changed. > =============== J: Kusala can be developed. We are all agreed on this. But developing kusala now is one thing; the idea that the future consciousness can be altered, or that kamma can be changed, is quite another. Perhaps it's because you don't find agreement here on this latter point that you think of us as fatalists? ;-)) Jon #107735 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun May 23, 2010 1:27 pm Subject: Influence, choice, will, conditionality truth_aerator Hello Jon, How would you answer my question to Howard in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/107732 Maybe conditionality doesn't always imply that if a supercomputer is given all the facts and formulas, it can calculate exactly what will happen some long time in the future. Maybe a real choice can be made among conditioned alternatives. This topic also relates to the notion of effort. Can one who is sufficiently learned about kusala / akusala, etc, choose to refrain from akusala (even though it is very hard to do) rather than be a helpless "victim of the circumstances" ? Is it even wholesome to hold the idea of being "victim of the circumstances"? Doesn't that give rise to negligence, excuses, and so on? Thank you for your other post. With metta, Alex #107736 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 23, 2010 9:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. Choice upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Dieter) - In a message dated 5/23/2010 9:15:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, Dieter, all, >H: Again, I ask you what events depend on *besides* preconditions. >I haven't seen a reply to that. What IS "our fate" determined by if >not conditions? There are conditions, sure. But what I am thinking is that same set of conditions may turn out in multiple ways. The result is not unconditioned, it is conditioned, but at the same time not determined. ------------------------------------------------------ I don't get the distinction. ----------------------------------------------------- Example: A person may say something or be silent on a certain occasion. Both results depend on prior conditions. One can justify due to past conditions why one did so and so, only after the fact has occurred but not prior. ------------------------------------------------------- What one knew or didn't know in advance as regards what has occurred is one thing, but the occurrence being determined in advance by conditions is another. When all the requisite conditions for an event have occurred, the event must occur. But if even one requisite condition is missing, the event cannot occur. Do you say different? ------------------------------------------------------- Will *could* have chosen one alternative over the other, the physical and mental possibilities were there. ---------------------------------------------------- The choice *could* have been different had the conditions been different. So what? The conditions were what they were. --------------------------------------------------- Before making the choice there were alternative possibilities and conditions for both to occur and only after the choice was made was one possibility actually carroed out (while another remained as potential, "could have been") ---------------------------------------------------- By the moment the choice is to be made - at that time all preconditions have occurred, and the die is already cast! There is no crack through which randomness can sneak in! And what would be desirable about randomness anyway? Randomness doesn't suggest control. It only suggests lack of lawfulness and conditionality. If randomness were the rule, it wouldn't matter one iota how we act! Consider that! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ Thank you for your replies. ----------------------------------------------------- Always good to talk with you, Alex. :-) ----------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107737 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun May 23, 2010 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. Choice truth_aerator Hello Howard, You could be right here. With metta, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Dieter) - > > In a message dated 5/23/2010 9:15:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Hi Howard, Dieter, all, > > >H: Again, I ask you what events depend on *besides* preconditions. >I > haven't seen a reply to that. What IS "our fate" determined by if >not > conditions? > > There are conditions, sure. But what I am thinking is that same set of > conditions may turn out in multiple ways. The result is not unconditioned, it > is conditioned, but at the same time not determined. > ------------------------------------------------------ > I don't get the distinction. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > Example: A person may say something or be silent on a certain occasion. > Both results depend on prior conditions. One can justify due to past > conditions why one did so and so, only after the fact has occurred but not prior. > ------------------------------------------------------- > What one knew or didn't know in advance as regards what has occurred > is one thing, but the occurrence being determined in advance by conditions > is another. When all the requisite conditions for an event have occurred, > the event must occur. But if even one requisite condition is missing, the > event cannot occur. Do you say different? > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Will *could* have chosen one alternative over the other, the physical and > mental possibilities were there. > ---------------------------------------------------- > The choice *could* have been different had the conditions been > different. So what? The conditions were what they were. > --------------------------------------------------- > > Before making the choice there were alternative possibilities and > conditions for both to occur and only after the choice was made was one possibility > actually carroed out (while another remained as potential, "could have > been") > ---------------------------------------------------- > By the moment the choice is to be made - at that time all > preconditions have occurred, and the die is already cast! There is no crack through > which randomness can sneak in! And what would be desirable about randomness > anyway? Randomness doesn't suggest control. It only suggests lack of > lawfulness and conditionality. If randomness were the rule, it wouldn't matter one > iota how we act! Consider that! ;-) > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > Thank you for your replies. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Always good to talk with you, Alex. :-) > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > With metta, > > Alex > ================================= > With metta, > Howard > > > Seamless Interdependency > > /A change in anything is a change in everything/ > > (Anonymous) > > #107738 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 23, 2010 2:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to induce right speach? nilovg Dear Azita, I like your scribble book, thank you. Nina. Op 23-mei-2010, om 8:19 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > "We have realities which are appearing all the time-NOW. We can be > aware of any one of these realities - why must we always be looking > for something new, something else to be aware of - be aware now." > > "There is no need to be discouraged because it is not self who > performs kusala or akusala. Dont be discouraged, it takes a great > deal of patience," #107739 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 23, 2010 10:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. Choice upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 5/23/2010 10:05:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, You could be right here. ---------------------------------------------------- That's music to my ears, Alex! (Not because I might be "right," but because you are exhibiting the so very rare characteristic of reconsidering!!! That is SO admirable! Consider me to be bowing to you. :-) ----------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107740 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun May 23, 2010 2:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > ... > Oh, geez!! : - / > That's my worried face! LOLOL! > =============== Funny, that was my reaction too! ;-)) Jon #107741 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 23, 2010 2:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patimokkha Rules nilovg Dear Billy and pt, Op 22-mei-2010, om 8:19 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > I don't know much on vinaya, but one story I often heard is that > (in Theravada) it's said that all 227 rules of patimokkha were > given directly by the Buddha, and then just before his death, he > told Ananda that some of the minor rules can be abolished after his > death (I think this was said in Mahaparinibbana sutta). But, Ananda > then didn't ask the Buddha which minor rules exactly he had in > mind, so at the time of the first council after the Buddha's death, > it was decided to keep all the rules since they didn't know which > minor rules to abolish. ---------- N: On Rob K's forum there is an article by Ven. Dhammanando and I quote only part of it: < In the Mahaparinibbana Sutta the Buddha tells the venerable Ananda: QUOTE "If it so wish, the sangha after my passing may remove the lesser and minor rules of training." Or so it is commonly translated. But this translation misses something important. The phrase translated "after my passing" reads mam'accayena in Pali. Accayena is accayo (elapse, decease) in the instrumental case. A more literal translation would be "with (or upon) my passing", meaning closely following it. In other words, it is not a permission extending indefinitely into the future. It follows that "sangha" here means the monks who were alive when the Buddha was alive. These are the ones whom he was trusting to make the right choice. And so it is generally held in the Theravada that this permission in effect expired from the time when the arahants of Rajagaha resolved not to take advantage of it. To assert the contrary -- that the permission is still valid even today -- would be to assert the possibility of later generations of bhikkhus knowing better than their saintly predecessors who had learned the Dhamma at the Buddha's feet. There is something else that should be noted in this passage. The Buddha's permission is immediately preceded by the Subhadda episode, where it is clear that many bhikkhus are present, and is followed by further talk addressed to the bhikkhus. So the Sutta quite pointedly informs us that the permission to abolish the lesser and minor rules was conveyed to Ananda alone.> (end quote) Nina. #107742 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun May 23, 2010 4:43 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 moellerdieter Hi Jon , and Howard, Alex.. you wrote: (Howard: I'd like to butt in with my perspective on a couple points being discussed.> =============== J: Thanks very much for butting in. I agree with all you say here (this must be some sort of a record! ;-)). And I thought you expressed it very well. D: I agree as well , it seems we need Howard being a mediator for our mutual understanding ;-) Coming back to Right Effort , I like to add a comment regarding Howard's proposition : 'The sense that there is an "I" who does things, an actor who steps in, is very deeply embedded and sneaks up on us all the time regardless of how invested we think we are in the anatta notion. Realizing this is likely to encourage us to be ever more vigilant.' Yes, the I notion is very deeply embedded and the delusion by the number of elements conditioning eachother kept alive despite we may think otherwise. Reason must be followed by understanding through penetration into was is going on . As I understand seeing the trouble of the vedana - tanha connection , the point of vigilance /heedfulness is of utmost importance. Restraint , guarding the senses brings us to further practise of samadhi , which are the means for progress in panna. It is progress of insight into the nature of all phenomena , which allows to develop the necessary disentchantment , dispassion towards feelings by which detachment is possible . with Metta Dieter #107743 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 23, 2010 10:36 pm Subject: The Other Side... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Running up & down the shore delays crossing! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, these 8 things, when cultivated & refined, lead to going beyond from this near shore, right here, to the far shore beyond all... What eight? Right View (samma-ditthi) Right Motivation (samma-sankappa) Right Speech (samma-vaca) Right Action (samma-kammanta) Right Livelihood (samma-ajiva) Right Effort (samma-vayama) Right Awareness (samma-sati) Right Concentration (samma-samadhi) These 8 things, when cultivated and refined, lead to going beyond from this near shore, right here, to the far shore beyond all imagination. The Well-Gone-One, the supreme Teacher, then added this: Few humans cross to that sublime far shore beyond all being. Mostly, people just run up and down along this barren bank! Those whose praxis is like this even and exact Dhamma, Will pass beyond the State of Death in quiet harmony! Having left all the dark and evil doing, any intelligence Seeks the luminous bright light by leaving this turmoil, and by going forth into solitary & silent homelessness. Secluded from lust, he experiences an unworldly bliss! Owing nothing, the wise and clever man thereby cleans himself of all these mental pollutions and defilements... Mentally well evolved by the 7 links to enlightenment, Delighting in non-clinging and relinquishment of all, Such luminous ones, having quenched fermentation , Are fully released even right here in this world! Crossing... To the Other Side... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:24] section 45: The Way. 34: Gone to the other side ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net The Other Side... #107744 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun May 23, 2010 11:52 pm Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? kenhowardau Hi Howard and Lucas, ---- <. . .> L: > > But this is very pleasant. I am sad when I have to be silent. H: > Well, of course, internal and external chattering *might* be a symptom of clinging to self and of a fear that silence is a kind of annihilation. If so, it is helpful to realize, I think, that silence, especially internal silence, is a kind of peace. ----- When the citta is kusala there is a kind of peace. Also, when the citta is akusala, there can be a false kind of peace. But in any case, peaceful feeling is NOT THE WAY OUT. There is no path factor by the name of samma vedana. ----------------- H: > Perhaps you might consider from time to time just sitting and doing nothing except really being there. ----------------- It would be better to understand - here and now - that there are only dhammas. ----------------------- H: > If you then find the mind chomping at the bit and straining to DO something, and even so you just sit there and see that happening, that might well lead to a calming down and acceptance of "just being" without any need to think or speak or act in any fashion at all. ----------------------- Howard, you seem to have a preference for calm over agitation. But isn't agitation the one we need to know most? Perhaps I am making the same mistake of having a preference (in which case someone will remind me) but I want to be able to face panic and the fear of imminent death with equanimity. I want to know them for the puny, temporary, conditioned phenomena that they are. Bring them on! :-) Ken H #107745 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 24, 2010 5:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to induce right speach? nilovg Dear Ken H Op 24-mei-2010, om 1:52 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > Howard, you seem to have a preference for calm over agitation. But > isn't agitation the one we need to know most? > > Perhaps I am making the same mistake of having a preference (in > which case someone will remind me) but I want to be able to face > panic and the fear of imminent death with equanimity. I want to > know them for the puny, temporary, conditioned phenomena that they > are. Bring them on! :-) ---------- N: Very good, Ken. Now we understand why Kh Sujin always stresses citta now when people come to her with problems about death. That is the only way to cope with problems. Otherwise we think and think, no way out. Let us at least begin to understand reality now, and not just by thinking. Nina. #107746 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon May 24, 2010 3:24 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 moellerdieter Hi all, I think there are quite a number of misunderstandings concerning Kamma ... wellknown scholar , Ven. P.A. Payutto , wrote an essay about it : please see http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/buddha/Teachings/037-payutto2.htm with Metta Dieter #107747 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 24, 2010 10:03 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Dieter (107742) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Jon , and Howard, Alex.. > > you wrote: > > (Howard: I'd like to butt in with my perspective on a couple points being discussed.> =============== > > J: Thanks very much for butting in. I agree with all you say here (this must be some sort of a record! ;-)). And I thought you expressed it very well. > > > D: I agree as well , it seems we need Howard being a mediator for our mutual understanding ;-) > =============== J: An unexpected development! ;-)) > =============== > Coming back to Right Effort , I like to add a comment regarding Howard's proposition : > 'The sense that there is an "I" who does things, an actor who steps in, is very deeply embedded and sneaks up on us all the time > regardless of how invested we think we are in the anatta notion. Realizing this is likely to encourage us to be ever more vigilant.' > > Yes, the I notion is very deeply embedded and the delusion by the number of elements conditioning eachother kept alive despite > we may think otherwise. Reason must be followed by understanding through penetration into was is going on . > =============== J: Right. Appreciation at the intellectual level of the not-self characteristic is only the beginning. It is the direct realisation gained through the development of awareness/insight that is important. > =============== > As I understand seeing the trouble of the vedana - tanha connection , the point of vigilance /heedfulness is of utmost importance. > =============== J: To my understanding, any dhamma at all may be the object of awareness/insight, and each moment of awareness/insight is of great value regardless of which dhamma is the object. I'm not aware of any support in the texts for 'targeting' the so-called vedana-tanha connection, or indeed for targeting any particular dhamma in preference to others. > =============== > Restraint , guarding the senses brings us to further practise of samadhi , which are the means for progress in panna. > =============== J: When awareness/insight is developed, so is the samadhi that conduces to the further development of those qualities. > =============== > It is progress of insight into the nature of all phenomena , which allows to develop the necessary disentchantment , dispassion towards feelings by which detachment is possible. > =============== Yes. Insight into the true nature of a presently arising phenomena is the key. Glad to end on a note of agreement, for a change ;-)) Jon #107748 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 24, 2010 9:58 pm Subject: Re: Influence, choice, will, conditionality jonoabb Hi Alex (107735) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Jon, > > How would you answer my question to Howard in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/107732 > =============== J: If I read that message correctly, you are saying that although dhammas are conditioned, they are not determined. I would certainly agree with that. Was there any other point you were raising with Howard? > =============== > Maybe conditionality doesn't always imply that if a supercomputer is given all the facts and formulas, it can calculate exactly what will happen some long time in the future. Maybe a real choice can be made among conditioned alternatives. This topic also relates to the notion of effort. Can one who is sufficiently learned about kusala / akusala, etc, choose to refrain from akusala (even though it is very hard to do) rather than be a helpless "victim of the circumstances"? > =============== J: The more developed the various kinds of kusala, the more restraint there will be from the corresponding kind of akusala. I would not use the expression "victim of circumstances" in connection with the arising of akusala consciousness (it could be used in connection with akusala vipaka, I suppose). > =============== > Is it even wholesome to hold the idea of being "victim of the circumstances"? Doesn't that give rise to negligence, excuses, and so on? > =============== J: I've don't think I've come across the use of "victim of circumstances" in the context you're suggesting. Sounds like making excuses ;-)) Jon #107749 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue May 25, 2010 2:14 am Subject: Re: Influence, choice, will, conditionality truth_aerator Hi Jon, Howard, all, >J: If I read that message correctly, you are saying that although >dhammas are conditioned, they are not determined. I would certainly >agree with that. If dhammas are conditioned, then how can it be that they are not determined? > > Was there any other point you were raising with Howard? The point could be rephrased also like from Dieter's link: " For example, if a man climbs to the third floor of a building, it is undeniably true that his arriving is a result of past action -- namely, walking up the stairs. And having arrived there, it is impossible for him to reach out and touch the ground with his hand, or to drive a car around. Obviously, this is because he has gone up to the third floor. Or, having arrived at the third floor, whether he is too exhausted to continue is also related to having walked up the stairs. His arrival there, the things he is able to do there and the situations he is likely to encounter, are all certainly related to the "old kamma" of having walked up the stairs. But exactly which actions he will perform, his reactions to the situations which he meets there, whether he will take a rest, walk on, or walk back down the stairs and out of that building, are all matters which he can decide for himself in that present moment, for which he will also reap the results. Even though the action of walking up the stairs may still be influencing him (for example, with his strength sapped he may be unable to function efficiently in any given situation), whether he decides to give in to that tiredness or try to overcome it are all matters which he can decide for himself in the present moment. " http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/buddha/Teachings/037-payutto2.htm Especially note the part of: "But exactly which actions he will perform, his reactions to the situations which he meets there, whether he will take a rest, walk on, or walk back down the stairs and out of that building, are all matters which he can decide for himself in that present moment," However what could be said (and I think Howard would say) is that the choice in the present moment is not really a real choice but a complex conditioned response that would have happened only in one way without real "choice" or even partial "freedom of choice" But even here, it is basically called determinism or fatalism (though it is much better than randomism). No choice is real choice, just a conditioned response that can only go one way when presented with identical circumstances. With metta, Alex #107750 From: "philip" Date: Tue May 25, 2010 7:57 am Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? philofillet Hi Nina > N: Very good, Ken. Now we understand why Kh Sujin always stresses > citta now when people come to her with problems about death. That is > the only way to cope with problems. Otherwise we think and think, no > way out. Let us at least begin to understand reality now, and not > just by thinking. Yes, I can appreciate the need to know one's cittas though I personally don't have the "bring them on" confidence of Ken H about how much the small degree of understanding I have of cittas will help to deal with death and dying issues. I personally place more emphasis on avoid evil deeds. I think the Buddha said there are 4 reasons people fear death: because they haven't given up sense pleasures, because they haven't given up attachment to the body, because they haven't done good deeds, and because they have doubt about the true Dhamma. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Clearly the first two factors, giving up sense pleasures, giving up attachment to the body - that is the work of panna. I don't expect to make much progress there, but who knows. But as for doing good deeds and avoiding wrong deeds, there I can make progress, and even if it is "I" who makes progress, the deeds are still avoided. For example, in the last couple of months, I have explicity been offered sexual adventures by two married women. Because of special and shall I say "alternative" circumstances (to give you a hint, but don't ask and don't tell!) in my marriage (ask James and Scott, they know!) I have been sexless for several years now, and it was hugely, hugely, hugely tempting to take the offers. With great struggle, I overcame the temptation in both cases. I don't believe understanding of my cittas was involved, what was involved, for me, were Dhammapada teachings in which the Buddha very explicitly taught what is the result of sexual misconduct of that sort. (Loss of merit, social disgrace, loss of sleep and rebirth in woeful planes are some that I remember.) It was very much Phil dealing with temptation, and Phil overcoming temptation. And so far, at least, that evil deed has not occured. And on my death bed (if I am lucid) I will not have that deed on my conscience. I believe this is the way the Buddha usually teaches lay followers, in very conventional terms, the paramattha terms that you favour are not stressed in Dhammapada or Dhammapada commentary by Buddhagosa. (THere are some exceptions, for example, a verse in which a man who bemoans the fate of his sons, and his wealth, and the BUddha points out that he doesn't have a self, let alone sons or wealth.So yes, there are references to the deeper teachings in Dhammapada, in many places, but the verses and commentary accompanying them are usually much more conventional. I still kind of cringe to remember the time Scott declared that the garland of deeds that the Dhammapada verse says those born human should do are javana cittas, and Jon bought into it immediately. That was a clear case of how one can read paramattha into teachings where it doesn't belong, and how others can follow along on the misreadings for the sake of making things fit nicely.) I appreciate how A. Sujin pushes us to appreciate momentary cittas, but the Buddha also teaches about the importance of sorting out conventional behaviour. I will continue to stress that point now and then! And I will continue to abstains from evil deeds for the sake of going lighter towards death. (Another great verse in Dhammapada tells us that the messengers of Yama are already at our door, but we haven't packed provisions for the journey. The provisions in question are good deeds. Of course you will be able to say that the notion of good deeds without understanding of fleeting cittas is an empty notion, and I will have to let you have the last word there. I have quit fantasy baseball again and have some extra time at home today, so thanks for letting me have a bit of a say. Mainly, I want to share my kusala with you all. I am very encouraged the victory I had (or have had so far) over that powerful, powerful temptation to commit a deed that is as conventional as can be (try to tell me how "married" is paramattha) but is still clearly taught by the Buddha to be leading to very woeful results. Metta, Phil #107751 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 25, 2010 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Influence, choice, will, conditionality upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Jon) - In a message dated 5/24/2010 10:14:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Especially note the part of: "But exactly which actions he will perform, his reactions to the situations which he meets there, whether he will take a rest, walk on, or walk back down the stairs and out of that building, are all matters which he can decide for himself in that present moment," However what could be said (and I think Howard would say) is that the choice in the present moment is not really a real choice but a complex conditioned response that would have happened only in one way without real "choice" or even partial "freedom of choice" But even here, it is basically called determinism or fatalism (though it is much better than randomism). No choice is real choice, just a conditioned response that can only go one way when presented with identical circumstances. ============================= Yes. :-) With metta, Howard Conditionality /"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that."/ (From the Bodhi Sutta, Udana 1.1) #107752 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon May 24, 2010 11:43 pm Subject: Fearless Freedom! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Free from Fear by Release from all Anxiety: The young deity Subrahma once asked the Buddha: Always frightened is this Mind! Always troubled is this Mind! Always agitated is this Mind! About present problems... About future problems... If there is a release from this worry & anxiety, please then explain it to me right now! Whereupon the Blessed Buddha simply declared: I see no other real safety for any living being, except from control of the senses, except from the relinquishment of all, except from awakening into Enlightenment! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 54 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html <..> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <..> #107753 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 25, 2010 2:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to induce right speach? nilovg Dear Phil, Op 25-mei-2010, om 9:57 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Mainly, I want to share my kusala with you all. I am very > encouraged the victory I had (or have had so far) over that > powerful, powerful temptation to commit a deed that is as > conventional as can be (try to tell me how "married" is paramattha) > but is still clearly taught by the Buddha to be leading to very > woeful results. ------- N: Thank you for sharing your experiences with us and I do appreciate your kusala cittas. It is kusala citta, not Phil as you will agree. We do not have to think so much and wonder about paramattha dhammas. These operate, also now, but one may not realize this. -------- Ph: I appreciate how A. Sujin pushes us to appreciate momentary cittas, but the Buddha also teaches about the importance of sorting out conventional behaviour. -------- N: We may think it is conventional behaviour, it may look like it, but in reality there is behaviour motivated by what? By cittas, by what else? What types of cittas: for non-arahats kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Another name for these: javana-cittas. Don't cringe ;-)) And these cittas arise because of their own conditions.,We do not know which conditions, we do not have this knowledge. I heard on tape: when someone was wondering: what should he do, she said: that is not the present moment, it is being distracted by hankering after the past or wishing for the future that has not come yet. What should I do, this is not satipa.t.thaana. But Phil, never mind if this is not what you have in mind. I do not want to convince you. Someone was worried about his mother who had cancer. She said, the word cancer may frighten people very much. This is thinking with worry about a name. Pay attention to this moment now, was her message, as always. -------- Nina. #107754 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue May 25, 2010 3:57 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 moellerdieter Hi Jon (Howard and Alex..), you wrote : ( D: I agree as well , it seems we need Howard being a mediator for our mutual understanding ;-) > =============== J: An unexpected development! ;-)) D: under the circumstances of all these conditions and conditioning ...;-) J: (D: Coming back to Right Effort , I like to add a comment regarding Howard's proposition : > 'The sense that there is an "I" who does things, an actor who steps in, is very deeply embedded and sneaks up on us all the time > regardless of how invested we think we are in the anatta notion. Realizing this is likely to encourage us to be ever more vigilant.'> > Yes, the I notion is very deeply embedded and the delusion by the number of elements conditioning eachother kept alive despite > we may think otherwise. Reason must be followed by understanding through penetration into was is going on .) > =============== Right. Appreciation at the intellectual level of the not-self characteristic is only the beginning. It is the direct realisation gained through the development of awareness/insight that is important. D: yes, the point replacing avijja by panna.. a gradual process J: (D: As I understand seeing the trouble of the vedana - tanha connection , the point of vigilance /heedfulness is of utmost importance.) > =============== To my understanding, any dhamma at all may be the object of awareness/insight, and each moment of awareness/insight is of great value regardless of which dhamma is the object. I'm not aware of any support in the texts for 'targeting' the so-called vedana-tanha connection, or indeed for targeting any particular dhamma in preference to others. D: you may not see the obvious here , Jon...relevant is khanda attachment , dhammas as object the detail. The Buddha taught for the suffering being , not for something else. By passion we are caught by dispassion released.. J: (D: > Restraint , guarding the senses brings us to further practise of samadhi , which are the means for progress in panna.) =============== When awareness/insight is developed, so is the samadhi that conduces to the further development of those qualities. D: yes for both propositions .. J: (D:_ It is progress of insight into the nature of all phenomena , which allows to develop the necessary disentchantment , dispassion towards feelings by which detachment is possible.)> =============== Yes. Insight into the true nature of a presently arising phenomena is the key. Glad to end on a note of agreement, for a change ;-)) D: ;-)) with Metta Dieter #107755 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 25, 2010 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Jon) - In a message dated 5/25/2010 12:04:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: J: (D: As I understand seeing the trouble of the vedana - tanha connection , the point of vigilance /heedfulness is of utmost importance.) > =============== To my understanding, any dhamma at all may be the object of awareness/insight, and each moment of awareness/insight is of great value regardless of which dhamma is the object. I'm not aware of any support in the texts for 'targeting' the so-called vedana-tanha connection, or indeed for targeting any particular dhamma in preference to others. D: you may not see the obvious here , Jon...relevant is khanda attachment , dhammas as object the detail. The Buddha taught for the suffering being , not for something else. By passion we are caught by dispassion released.. =============================== I think you may both be right in this. :-) Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so. In this respect, I believe you are correct, Jon. OTOH, as you suggest, Dieter, the primary condition for dukkha is tanha. When tanha sneaks by unnoticed, the suffering is sure to arise along with other ill effects. But when mindfulness is operative, there will be awareness of whatever arises, including the nascent stage of craving which may then be "nipped in the bud." With metta, Howard Conditionality /"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that."/ (From the Bodhi Sutta, Udana 1.1) #107756 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue May 25, 2010 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Influence, choice, will, conditionality moellerdieter Hi Alex and Howard , Jon and all, you wrote: Especially note the part of: "But exactly which actions he will perform, his reactions to the situations which he meets there, whether he will take a rest, walk on, or walk back down the stairs and out of that building, are all matters which he can decide for himself in that present moment," However what could be said (and I think Howard would say) is that the choice in the present moment is not really a real choice but a complex conditioned response that would have happened only in one way without real "choice" or even partial "freedom of choice" D: it depends on the angle of view , doesn't it ? I.M.H.O. very well said by the Venerable : ' What must be grasped is the difference between kamma in the context of natural law, and kamma in the context of ethics. When speaking of kamma as a natural law, a process that exists in nature and incorporates a wide range of conditioning factors, we do not overemphasize the role of individual action, so we say that kamma is not the only cause of happiness and suffering. But on the level of ethics, the teaching of kamma is meant to be used on a practical basis. Consequently, full responsibility is placed on the individual. This is emphasized in the Buddha?s words from the Dhammapada, "Be a refuge unto yourself." ' A: But even here, it is basically called determinism or fatalism (though it is much better than randomism). No choice is real choice, just a conditioned response that can only go one way when presented with identical circumstances. ============================= H: Yes. :-) D: I didn't catch it .. what only did come into my mind is the ancient saying 'one never steps into the river twice' One more important point , which the Venerable P.A.Payutto addressed as issue of confusion ( and we encounter in some anatta discussions , in particular when the need of one's effort is played down ) : 'There is one question which, though only occasionally asked, tends to linger in the minds of many newcomers to the study of Buddhism: "Do the teachings of kamma and not-self contradict each other?" If everything, including body and mind, is not-self, then how can there be kamma? Who is it who commits kamma? Who receives the results of kamma? These doubts are not simply a phenomenon of the present time, but have existed from the time of the Buddha, as can be seen in the following example: A bhikkhu conceived the following doubt, "We know that body, feeling, perception, volitional impulses and consciousness[b] are not self. If so, then who is it who receives the results of the kamma made by this 'non-self'?" At that time, the Blessed One, knowing the thoughts of that bhikkhu, addressed the bhikkhus thus: "Bhikkhus, it may be that some foolish people in this Teaching and Discipline, with mind fallen into ignorance and confused by desire, might conceive the teaching of the Master to be rationalized thus: 'We know that body, feeling, perception, volitional impulses and consciousness are not self. If that is so, who is it who receives the results of the kamma created by this "non-self"?' All of you now, having been thoroughly instructed by me, consider these matters: is form permanent or impermanent? snip " with Metta Dieter #107757 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue May 25, 2010 10:25 pm Subject: Re: Influence, choice, will, conditionality jonoabb Hi Alex (107749) (re-sent) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > If dhammas are conditioned, then how can it be that they are not determined? > =============== J: The kusala (or akusala) that is arising at this moment is conditioned, but it is not predetermined. Hence the Buddha was able to say that kusala *can* be developed, akusala *can* be abandoned. > =============== > http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/buddha/Teachings/037-payutto2.htm > > Especially note the part of: > "But exactly which actions he will perform, his reactions to the situations which he meets there, whether he will take a rest, walk on, or walk back down the stairs and out of that building, are all matters which he can decide for himself in that present moment," > > However what could be said (and I think Howard would say) is that the choice in the present moment is not really a real choice but a complex conditioned response that would have happened only in one way without real "choice" or even partial "freedom of choice" > =============== J: I'm not sure the analogy of the person walking up the stairs of a building is a useful one. The only question of significance on this issue is whether or not kusala can be developed, and I think the answer to that is 'yes'. Is there any other significance in discussing 'choice'? > =============== > But even here, it is basically called determinism or fatalism (though it is much better than randomism). No choice is real choice, just a conditioned response that can only go one way when presented with identical circumstances. > =============== J: Are we still talking about the man who climbed the stairs of the building? If so, I agree that his response (so-called 'choice') will be conditioned by multiple past and present factors. I'm happy not to call it choice, but I wouldn't call it determinism or fatalism, since those terms refer to views actually held (rather than, for example, one's reading of the texts on the matter). Jon #107758 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue May 25, 2010 1:02 am Subject: Re: Influence, choice, will, conditionality truth_aerator Hi Jon, Howard, all, >J: If I read that message correctly, you are saying that although >dhammas are conditioned, they are not determined. I would certainly >agree with that. If dhammas are conditioned, then how can it be that they are not determined? > > Was there any other point you were raising with Howard? The point could be rephrased also like from Dieter's link: " For example, if a man climbs to the third floor of a building, it is undeniably true that his arriving is a result of past action -- namely, walking up the stairs. And having arrived there, it is impossible for him to reach out and touch the ground with his hand, or to drive a car around. Obviously, this is because he has gone up to the third floor. Or, having arrived at the third floor, whether he is too exhausted to continue is also related to having walked up the stairs. His arrival there, the things he is able to do there and the situations he is likely to encounter, are all certainly related to the "old kamma" of having walked up the stairs. But exactly which actions he will perform, his reactions to the situations which he meets there, whether he will take a rest, walk on, or walk back down the stairs and out of that building, are all matters which he can decide for himself in that present moment, for which he will also reap the results. Even though the action of walking up the stairs may still be influencing him (for example, with his strength sapped he may be unable to function efficiently in any given situation), whether he decides to give in to that tiredness or try to overcome it are all matters which he can decide for himself in the present moment. " http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/buddha/Teachings/037-payutto2.htm Especially note the part of: "But exactly which actions he will perform, his reactions to the situations which he meets there, whether he will take a rest, walk on, or walk back down the stairs and out of that building, are all matters which he can decide for himself in that present moment," However what could be said (and Howard would say) is that the choice in the present moment is not really a real choice but a complex conditioned response that would have happened only in one way without real "choice" or even partial "freedom of choice" But even here, it is basically called determinism or fatalism (though it is much better than randomism). No choice is real choice, just a conditioned response that can only go one way when presented with identical circumstances. With metta, Alex #107759 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue May 25, 2010 10:21 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Dieter (107754) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Jon (Howard and Alex..), > ... > J: An unexpected development! ;-)) > > D: under the circumstances of all these conditions and conditioning ...;-) > =============== J: Absolutely right! ;-)) > =============== > Right. Appreciation at the intellectual level of the not-self characteristic is only the beginning. It is the direct realisation gained through the > development of awareness/insight that is important. > > D: yes, the point replacing avijja by panna.. a gradual process > =============== J: Yes, very gradual (cira kala bhavana). No need to get excited about the possibility of attainments in this lifetime ;-)) > =============== > J: (D: As I understand seeing the trouble of the vedana - tanha connection , the point of vigilance /heedfulness is of utmost importance.) > > =============== > > To my understanding, any dhamma at all may be the object of awareness/insight, and each moment of awareness/insight is of great value > regardless of which dhamma is the object. > I'm not aware of any support in the texts for 'targeting' the so-called vedana-tanha connection, or indeed for targeting any particular dhamma in > preference to others. > > > D: you may not see the obvious here , Jon...relevant is khanda attachment , dhammas as object the detail. > =============== J: I'm still not seeing "the obvious", I'm afraid. On the matter of dhammas as object, the Satipatthana Sutta (for example) does not seem to accord higher priority to one kind of dhamma over another. > =============== > The Buddha taught for the suffering being , not for something else. By passion we are caught by dispassion released.. > =============== J: Yes, the Buddha taught for the end of suffering. > =============== > J: (D: > Restraint , guarding the senses brings us to further practise of samadhi , which are the means for progress in panna.) =============== > > When awareness/insight is developed, so is the samadhi that conduces to the further development of those qualities. > > D: yes for both propositions .. > =============== J: To my understanding, samadhi need not (and in fact cannot) be developed separate from the development of awareness/insight itself. Jon #107760 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 25, 2010 7:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Influence, choice, will, conditionality upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Alex) - In a message dated 5/25/2010 6:36:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Alex (107749) (re-sent) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > If dhammas are conditioned, then how can it be that they are not determined? > =============== J: The kusala (or akusala) that is arising at this moment is conditioned, but it is not predetermined. --------------------------------------------------------------- I don't understand that, Jon, unless by 'predetermined' you mean "decided upon and then consciously carried out". What exactly do you mean by 'predetermined'? ------------------------------------------------------------- Hence the Buddha was able to say that kusala *can* be developed, akusala *can* be abandoned. --------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, but only if conditions provide for it. -------------------------------------------------------------- > =============== > http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/buddha/Teachings/037-payutto2.htm > > Especially note the part of: > "But exactly which actions he will perform, his reactions to the situations which he meets there, whether he will take a rest, walk on, or walk back down the stairs and out of that building, are all matters which he can decide for himself in that present moment," > > However what could be said (and I think Howard would say) is that the choice in the present moment is not really a real choice but a complex conditioned response that would have happened only in one way without real "choice" or even partial "freedom of choice" > =============== J: I'm not sure the analogy of the person walking up the stairs of a building is a useful one. The only question of significance on this issue is whether or not kusala can be developed, and I think the answer to that is 'yes'. Is there any other significance in discussing 'choice'? > =============== > But even here, it is basically called determinism or fatalism (though it is much better than randomism). No choice is real choice, just a conditioned response that can only go one way when presented with identical circumstances. > =============== J: Are we still talking about the man who climbed the stairs of the building? If so, I agree that his response (so-called 'choice') will be conditioned by multiple past and present factors. I'm happy not to call it choice, but I wouldn't call it determinism or fatalism, since those terms refer to views actually held (rather than, for example, one's reading of the texts on the matter). ----------------------------------------------------------------- I'm having a hard time understanding you, Jon. At any point in time, all preconditions for whatever might happen next are "in". the die has been cast. Whatever happens next HAS to happen next. There is no randomness. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jon ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107761 From: A T Date: Wed May 26, 2010 12:05 am Subject: Awakening Within this very life itself! truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, > J: Yes, very gradual (cira kala bhavana). No need to get excited >about the possibility of attainments in this lifetime ;-)) I strongly disagree with the above. What you've said has absolutely no bearings on the Dhamma, where a person could go from a mass murderer to a saint within one life. Don't underestimate the power of the Dhamma! The famous satipatthana sutta states that one can become awakened in 7 days, and that by the way of an average person capable of being trained. A very keen person, under Buddha's personal guidance could do it in a day (12 hours) MN 85 Yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaro satipatthane evam bhaveyya = "O bhikkhus, if anyone develops the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner." If any bhikkhu or bhikkhuni or upasaka or upasika cultivates mindfulness from the beginning according to the method taught here. Titthantu bhikkhave = "O bhikkhus, let alone." This together with what follows, was said by way of the average person capable of being trained. But concerning the person of keen intelligence it was stated as follows: Instructed in the morning, he will attain in the evening; instructed in the evening, he will attain in the morning. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html#four Those who follow the path Well taught by the unsurpassed Caravan-leader, who are diligent In the Sublime One's dispensation, Make an end of suffering ***Within this very life itself *** http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.3.072-090x.irel.html#iti-084 “A bhikkhu endowed with these five factors gaining the training from the Thus Gone One in the morning, for whatever cause sons of clansmen rightfully go forth homeless that highest end of the holy life, he here and now, knowing, realizing, will attain in the evening, or advised in the evening would realise the next morning. “ http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/085-bodhirajak\ umara-e1.html With metta, Alex #107764 From: "philip" Date: Wed May 26, 2010 1:49 am Subject: Re: Awakening Within this very life itself! philofillet Hi Alex and all Alex, you could also help Jon understand the MN sutta in which we are urged to make an aspiration about the realm we wish to be reborn in, it's MN 120, Sankharaupapatti sutta. As for the 7 days to enlightenment, I think it would be a mistake to believe that we all have the suitable conditions for that kind of practice but having been born human with access to the Buddha's teaching, there is certainly room for all of us to have aspirations for favourable rebirth. At this point I am aspiring for human rebirth, though it is of course not even the beginning of the way out. But for a human who loses human rebirth and goes (so to speak) to the woeful realms, a return to this realm is as rare as the blind turtle coming up through that yoke, so I aspire to keep this foothold. I think it's great that you have nobler aspirations, I enjoy reading about them! Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > > Hello Jon, all, > > > J: Yes, very gradual (cira kala bhavana). No need to get excited >about the possibility of attainments in this lifetime ;-)) > > I strongly disagree with the above. What you've said has absolutely no bearings on the Dhamma, where a person could go from a mass murderer to a saint within one life. Don't underestimate the power of the Dhamma! > #107765 From: "philip" Date: Wed May 26, 2010 1:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: How to induce right speach? philofillet Hi Nina > N: Thank you for sharing your experiences with us and I do appreciate > your kusala cittas. It is kusala citta, not Phil as you will agree. > We do not have to think so much and wonder about paramattha dhammas. > These operate, also now, but one may not realize this. Yes, I appreciate this. I know it is kusala citta, not Phil. But there are times that thinking about one's story, behaviour in conventional terms, thinking about Phil doing this or that or Phil being this sort of good person can condition those kusala cittas. I personally find the sutta that says "this is a path for inferior, it is not a path for superior people" to be great for conditioning abstention. It is also about Phil, but the Buddha understood in his great compassion that not all people have conditions for being free from identiy view. He helps them (me) in the way that is suitable for their level of understanding. Of course that level of understanding changes moment by moment, it is not fixed. > -------- > Ph: I appreciate how A. Sujin pushes us to appreciate momentary > cittas, but the Buddha also teaches about the importance of sorting > out conventional behaviour. > -------- > N: We may think it is conventional behaviour, it may look like it, > but in reality there is behaviour motivated by what? By cittas, by > what else? What types of cittas: for non-arahats kusala cittas or > akusala cittas. Another name for these: javana-cittas. Don't > cringe ;-)) And these cittas arise because of their own > conditions.,We do not know which conditions, we do not have this > knowledge. Ph: Right, I agree. I know there are citta processes at work, and I have no problem with the teaching of javana cittas (even if evidence suggests it was a later teaching.) But when the Buddha spoke of a garland of deeds even if he was talking about conventional deeds being motivated by cittas (which of course they are) he was not talking about that garland of deeds being a garland, a chain of javanas. THe commentary makes that clear. > I heard on tape: when someone was wondering: what should he do, she > said: that is not the present moment, it is being distracted by > hankering after the past or wishing for the future that has not come > yet. What should I do, this is not satipa.t.thaana. But Phil, never > mind if this is not what you have in mind. I do not want to convince > you. > Someone was worried about his mother who had cancer. She said, the > word cancer may frighten people very much. This is thinking with > worry about a name. Pay attention to this moment now, was her > message, as always. Ph: Yes, absolutely. I think reflecting in paramattha terms is great for dealing with fear, and for helping to avoid remorse after bad deeds. (We can reflect on the deeply accumulated nature of our defilements and let go of remorse.) But there are certain conventional deeds we do not do. A married person is not a paramattha. THe Buddha termed his defintion of sexual misconduct in conventional terms. When my defilements are trying to justify some bad behaviour, trying to goad me into it, there is thinking "what is important is the citta, is there harmfulness in it, is there compassion, friendliness?" If one were to define sexual misconduct in terms of the citta, there could be a lot of fudging, but fortunately the Buddha didn't leave us that option. The behaviour is clearly defined in conventional terms. Anyways, thanks Nine. Perfections is really good. Next I'm going to reread Cetasikas. I'll drop my active particiation there, until the next visit. Metta, Phil #107766 From: "philip" Date: Wed May 26, 2010 2:02 am Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? philofillet Hi all Yesterday I sent a follow up to my post but it never appeared. It might still be on its way, but in case it doesn't I will clarify again that my cryptic "ask James and Scott, they know" was becuase they were off-list confidentes about my very unusual marital situation, that's all. Metta, Phil > > Yes, I can appreciate the need to know one's cittas though I personally don't have the "bring them on" confidence of Ken H #107767 From: A T Date: Wed May 26, 2010 2:19 am Subject: Fw: Awakening Within this very life itself! truth_aerator Hello Phil, Jon all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Alex and all > >As for the 7 days to enlightenment, I think it would be a mistake to >believe that we all have the suitable conditions for that kind of >practice So make it 7 years than. The point is that Dhamma is: sva-kkha-to bhagavata- dhammo sandit.t.hiko aka-liko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattam. veditabbo vińńu-hi-’ti "The Dhamma is well proclaimed by the Exalted One, Can be realized here and now, not a matter of time, come and see , to be experienced by oneself, realizable by the wise" Talking about required Aeons for awakening doesn't sound like "can be realized here and now, not a matter of time"... “"I don't envision a single thing that is as quick to reverse itself as the mind — so much so that there is no feasible simile for how quick to reverse itself it is."” - AN 1.48 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.048.than.html Does it really take that much time for serious practitioners intent on Awakening to overcome 3 fetters for stream entry? Again, even if we buy into the theory of Accumulations, unless we possess clayrvoyance, we do not know how much accumulations we have! Maybe 99.9% of accumulations gathered over 100s of Aeons have already been accumulated to get us to this point. You may say that "oh I have so much anger, etc etc". Well, Angulimala killed 999 people. How much anger (dosa) did that require? He still managed to become an Arahat. So has anyone killed anyone? How about 999 people?! Again, the unwholesome states of mind that appear don't need to refute your past accumulations, just as with Angulimala. As long as you haven't committed 5 heinous crimes (only 3 are possible for laity today), or have some terrible vipaka, awakening can occur. And even then, a lot can be done. Devadatta is predicted to come out of hell in an Aeon (or couple of those) and become a Private Buddha. And yet I read and hear how we (who haven't committed the atrocities of Devadatta) have to go through many aeons of gathering accumulations. Why does it sound like Devadatta (who according to Jatakas was mostly a Bad guy opposing the Buddha and committing atrocity after atrocity) supposedly gets a quicker way out than a decent person? With metta, Alex #107768 From: "philip" Date: Tue May 25, 2010 12:08 pm Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? philofillet Hi again Nina and all, re the below, come to think of it while I mayu deny the immediate importance of understanding cittas for the lay follower dealing with gross defilements (of course I understand that understanding cittas is absolutely essential for eradication of defilements and ultimately liberation) I suppose remembrance of the Buddha's teaching is a basic form of sati, so I suppose when I face a temptation and remember a Dhammapada verse and am able thereby to tell myself with confidence "the Buddha says not to do this so you are not going to do it, capiche?" that is awareness of a citta or mind state or something like that, I don't know. There is of course a degree of panna at work in my abstention, I just reject the imposition of an interest in panna of an ariyan degree on to my muddled daily life, non merci, ce n'est pas pour moi, ce panna la. By the way, I re-read Perfections over the last couple of days and thought again how good it is. Except for the 7 or 8 times I wrote NO!!! in the margin when there were references to understanding of realities in daily life that were versed in a wanting-too-much of it way. I came up with the terms pannappropriation to refer to all the casual references to what sounds like penetrative panna in daily life. Metta, Phil p.s to clarify the cryptic "ask James and Scott, they know" reference in my previous post, I simply meant that they have been off-list confidantes(sp?) about marital situation. > > N: Very good, Ken. Now we understand why Kh Sujin always stresses > > citta now when people come to her with problems about death. That is > > the only way to cope with problems. Otherwise we think and think, no > > way out. Let us at least begin to understand reality now, and not > > just by thinking. > > > Yes, I can appreciate the need to know one's cittas though I personally don't have the "bring them on" confidence of Ken H about how much the small degree of understanding I have of cittas will help to deal with death and dying issues. #107769 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 24, 2010 10:07 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Dieter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi all, > > I think there are quite a number of misunderstandings concerning Kamma ... > > wellknown scholar , Ven. P.A. Payutto , wrote an essay about it : please see > http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/buddha/Teachings/037-payutto2.htm > =============== Thanks for the reference. It's a long article (8 pages when printed), so not everyone will get around to reading it. Are there any particular observations or conclusions in the article you'd like to mention? Jon #107770 From: Vince Date: Wed May 26, 2010 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: DO in Aruppa planes cerovzt@... Dear Sarah you wrote: > S: The development of understanding is the practice. Without any > understanding now, there is no practice at all. > ... > S: I don't think so. Unless there is very clear understanding of > nama and rupa now, there cannot be any understanding of anatta. It > is the understanding of the anatta nature of namas and rupas that has to be developed. note "understanding" was not the Buddha word for the truth but it is panna. What we name "understanding" is just a product of the reason. This understanding is a preliminar of panna. If we use "understanding" as a synonym for panna, then such understanding also includes metta. Panna and understanding of anatta doesn't born only from the cultivation of a right structuration of knowledge while we are reflecting in phenomena. Citta knows the objects without error but later this is digested by words and meanings. We work under this distorsion then this is just a preliminar disposition for the arising of panna. Words and meanings are forms, nama. In a global picture, they are streams of mind movements covering the citta task. Citta knows moment after moment and later all these articulated representations arises in us. With metta also we build an stream to penetrate in the nature of phenomena. This is not articulated by words and meanings but it is more powerful depending circumstances. Metta also it's a way to panna. In example, what sometimes we name "inner obstacles" are kamma, and these include the fact that we have been programmed from our childhood according our life experiences. Our mind contains hidden and powerful trends, able to interfere in the arising of right movements into the truth. I suppose this is included in the discussion of the importance of kusala and akusala associated with wisdom. Some of these trends are visible and open to us, while others not. Despite these non-visible factors are not easily identified with our reason, all them can be unactivated and cleaned with metta. Metta acts in the same way of the building of the common understanding regarding wrong ideas. Most times these "parasites" doesn't contain an inherent value to waste our time trying to identify them. Maybe they are terrible things or maybe ridiculous but all them can become powerful across our life. Metta can erase all them, not matter where they are. Also, if one doesn't develop metta, one is under influences of hidden and invisible things even while he sleep. Believe such things exists, and in present times many people who is engaged in an spiritual search can fall under these obstacles, which are not only in the depths of the individual mind but also outside. Metta erradicates all them. I think the practice of metta is absolutely needed today. However, try to say that metta is not only a protection but another way to penetrate in the truth, because what we call "understanding" is just a movement to clean errors so panna can arise. Metta is just a different way of the common acquisition of meaning-objects. We name "understanding" to the cleaning of errors but then we should remember all the extent of this notion implies, and then what is the needed practice for that. Metta is a way for panna as the Reason is > S: I would say that metta can be quite common. Those who have not > ever heard or understood the Buddha's teachings may still have many > moments of kindness, of metta during the day. However, without any > understanding of exactly what it is, it may decline rather than develop. I share about metta can decline without understanding. But in the same way the understanding can decline without metta. One is the light for the other one. In fact, such division is quite under discussion. When one check that metta can arise in people without understanding of nama and rupa, it only can means: - what we name "understanding" is not a requisite for the truth or - metta itself is understanding, and our present notion of what is Understanding is something in progress instead a closed task. I go for the second option because same Buddha showed metta as a characteristic of a fulfilled Enlightened mind. In that way he started to teach to others. best, Vince. #107771 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed May 26, 2010 3:59 am Subject: Re: Awakening Within this very life itself! kenhowardau Hi Phil (and Alex), ------------ <. . .> Ph: > At this point I am aspiring for human rebirth, though it is of course not even the beginning of the way out. But for a human who loses human rebirth and goes (so to speak) to the woeful realms, a return to this realm is as rare as the blind turtle coming up through that yoke, so I aspire to keep this foothold. ------------- You are not getting it, Phil. The Dhamma says there is no self. That means there is no self that will be reborn. So why would anyone who believed in this Dhamma "aspire" to any kind of rebirth? It isn't going to happen! It's the same with woeful rebirth as it is with human rebirth - it isn't going to happen to you. (There is no you.) So why be concerned about it either way? -------------------- Ph: > I think it's great that you have nobler aspirations, I enjoy reading about them! -------------------- Why don't you enjoy something more Dhamma related instead? For example, why don't you consider the question, "Given that there is no self, in what way can it be said there is rebirth? Or: given that there is no self, in what way can it be said that a monk "aspires" to a fortunate rebirth - or to anything?" Ken H #107772 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed May 26, 2010 8:17 am Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? jonoabb Hi Phil and All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi all > > Yesterday I sent a follow up to my post but it never appeared. > =============== There seem to be delays (of up to 24 hours) in messages reaching the list at present. This sometimes happens when Yahoo are making changes to their system. So no need to be concerned if a message you have sent off does not show up immediately. Jon #107773 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 26, 2010 9:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to induce right speach? nilovg Dear Phil, Op 26-mei-2010, om 3:33 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ph: Yes, absolutely. I think reflecting in paramattha terms is > great for dealing with fear, and for helping to avoid remorse after > bad deeds. (We can reflect on the deeply accumulated nature of our > defilements and let go of remorse.) > > But there are certain conventional deeds we do not do. A married > person is not a paramattha. --------- N: Person, married or not, is actually citta, cetasika and ruupa. -------- > Ph: The Buddha termed his defintion of sexual misconduct in > conventional terms. When my defilements are trying to justify some > bad behaviour, trying to goad me into it, there is thinking "what > is important is the citta, is there harmfulness in it, is there > compassion, friendliness?" If one were to define sexual misconduct > in terms of the citta, there could be a lot of fudging, but > fortunately the Buddha didn't leave us that option. The behaviour > is clearly defined in conventional terms. -------- N: It is described in terms of kusala kamma and akusala kamma that can produce their appropriate results later on. Kamma is intention or volition, a cetasika and in this case a cetasika that motivates a deed. The Buddha stressed good friendship and bad friendship being conditions for kusala cittas and akusala cittas. He spoke about avoiding bad company. I think this is very important, it has great influence on one's life. What is bad friendship? It is a description of conditions for different cittas: vipaakacittas and the reactions towards it. In truth, through ears there is hearing, and then thinking about what was heard. Seeing, and then thinking about what was seen. Thinking in an unwholesome way is not vipaaka, it is the active side of life. It arises because of accumulated defilements. Each description of a situation can be broken down into many different moments of citta. What type of citta arises now: vipaakacitta? Kusala citta or akusala citta? -------- Nina. #107774 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 26, 2010 9:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to induce right speach? nilovg Dear Phil, Op 25-mei-2010, om 14:08 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > By the way, I re-read Perfections over the last couple of days and > thought again how good it is. Except for the 7 or 8 times I wrote > NO!!! > in the margin when there were references to understanding of > realities in daily life that were versed in a wanting-too-much of > it way. I came up with the terms pannappropriation to refer to all > the casual references to what sounds like penetrative panna in > daily life. ------- N: I appreciate your interest in the Perfections. If you have time you could mention the sections where you wrote: No, No. Wanting too much pa~n~naa? But we learn that wanting is not pa~n~naa. Because of all Kh Sujin's good reminders we come to understand this more and more. Nina. #107775 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 26, 2010 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Awakening Within this very life itself! upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Phil & Alex) - In a message dated 5/26/2010 12:03:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Phil (and Alex), ------------ <. . .> Ph: > At this point I am aspiring for human rebirth, though it is of course not even the beginning of the way out. But for a human who loses human rebirth and goes (so to speak) to the woeful realms, a return to this realm is as rare as the blind turtle coming up through that yoke, so I aspire to keep this foothold. ------------- You are not getting it, Phil. The Dhamma says there is no self. That means there is no self that will be reborn. So why would anyone who believed in this Dhamma "aspire" to any kind of rebirth? It isn't going to happen! ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ken, there is no self who eats either, but do you not eat, and do you not choose *what* and *when* to eat? (The "you" here is just "normal-speak") Some food is good for you, and some is not. A human birth is extraordinarily useful. The Buddha pointed out useful things and harmful things. There is no self to do anything, so why attend to kusala versus akusala? --------------------------------------------------------------- It's the same with woeful rebirth as it is with human rebirth - it isn't going to happen to you. (There is no you.) So why be concerned about it either way? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Likewise for what you eat. Not only that: This applies to ALL action. Why be concerned with whether you steal or not, cheat or not, even kill or not?! Why be concerned either way? What would the Buddha say? Would he say that there is no self, so it doesn't matter either way? --------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- Ph: > I think it's great that you have nobler aspirations, I enjoy reading about them! -------------------- Why don't you enjoy something more Dhamma related instead? For example, why don't you consider the question, "Given that there is no self, in what way can it be said there is rebirth? Or: given that there is no self, in what way can it be said that a monk "aspires" to a fortunate rebirth - or to anything?" Ken H ===================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107776 From: A T Date: Wed May 26, 2010 1:51 pm Subject: Driving into trees and falling off the cliff truth_aerator Hi KenH, Phil, all, >KH: You are not getting it, Phil. The Dhamma says there is no self. >That >means there is no self that will be reborn. So why would anyone >who >believed in this Dhamma "aspire" to any kind of rebirth? It >isn't going >to happen! If there is No Self, then why doesn't one jump off the cliff or drive into a tree at 100 km/h? Why doesn't one drive through a busy intersection on a red light, and waits until green light only? There is no self, cliffs, cars, traffic lights or trees! Why eat, drink, put on the cloth, avoid harm, etc - if there is no self? Bare Selfless phenomena do exist, even if they can be taken apart. But none of this means that we can ignore or forget about "conventional" reality. It is solid, so don't drive into a tree at 100 km/h or try a head on collision between "non-existent things and non-existent people". Don't forget about conventional reality! Conventionally it does exist. >KH: Why don't you enjoy something more Dhamma related instead? Right, like develop Satipatthana (which promises awakening as soon as within 7 days for average people and keen people could awaken within 12 hours through Buddha's personal guidance. With metta, Alex #107777 From: "philip" Date: Wed May 26, 2010 2:07 pm Subject: Re: Awakening Within this very life itself! philofillet Hi Ken > Ph: > At this point I am aspiring for human rebirth, though it is > of course not even the beginning of the way out. But for a human who loses human rebirth and goes (so to speak) to the woeful realms, a return to this realm is as rare as the blind turtle coming up through that yoke, so I aspire to keep this foothold. > ------------- > > You are not getting it, Phil. The Dhamma says there is no self. That means there is no self that will be reborn. So why would anyone who believed in this Dhamma "aspire" to any kind of rebirth? It isn't going to happen! > > It's the same with woeful rebirth as it is with human rebirth - it isn't going to happen to you. (There is no you.) So why be concerned about it either way? Ph: We can't all have your ariyanesque pizazz, Ken. For better or worse, I follow the Buddha's teaching in the way it is followed and has been followed by lay followers for ages. If you spent some time with Dhammapada and the commentary, you would understand where I am coming from. Fortunately I am free from the modern corruption of buying merit that plagues the laiety these days (at least in Asian communities) and also free of the far less wide-spread corruption of using the notion of penetrative panna in daily life for comfort and well-being. As you may know, the Buddha didn't teach the deep teachings unless he knew the listener's mind was ready. In this day and age, the listener is always ready to declare him or herself ready for the deepest of teachings, and you are the readiest of the ready. Not me. I allow myself very gradual exposure to the deep teachings so I won't exploit them for comfort. It continues to puzzle me why you don't see that is what you're up to, but so be it. I know you're a good fellow. Get thee to a Dhammapada! Metta, Phil p.s thanks Nina for your posts. I will be out of here again, it's been a nice little visit. #107778 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 26, 2010 6:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Awakening Within this very life itself! nilovg Dear Phil, Op 26-mei-2010, om 16:07 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > p.s thanks Nina for your posts. I will be out of here again, it's > been a nice little visit. ----- N: We always enjoy having you, even for a short visit. BTW I know that you think that some people want to develop pa~n~naa for comfort, but then it is not pa~n~naa at all. I rather think one becomes more realistic by developping pa~n~naa, not taking for kusala what is akusala. Also, one comes to realize more and more all the ugly accumulated inclinations that were hidden at first. ------- Nina. #107779 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed May 26, 2010 6:27 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 moellerdieter Hi Jon and Howard, You wrote: To my understanding, any dhamma at all may be the object of awareness/insight, and each moment of awareness/insight is of great value > regardless of which dhamma is the object. > I'm not aware of any support in the texts for 'targeting' the so-called vedana-tanha connection, or indeed for targeting any particular dhamma in > preference to others. > D: you may not see the obvious here , Jon...relevant is khanda attachment , dhammas as object the detail. > =============== J: I'm still not seeing "the obvious", I'm afraid. On the matter of dhammas as object, the Satipatthana Sutta (for example) does not seem to accord higher priority to one kind of dhamma over another. D: did you read Howard's comment?: " I think you may both be right in this. :-) Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so. In this respect, I believe you are correct, Jon. OTOH, as you suggest, Dieter, the primary condition for dukkha is tanha. When tanha sneaks by unnoticed, the suffering is sure to arise along with other ill effects. But when mindfulness is operative, there will be awareness of whatever arises, including the nascent stage of craving which may then be "nipped in the bud." I wonder whether we can say 'Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so ' , Howard. There is choice of focus , isn't it? Or would you describe that solely to right effort? And yes, being mindful may avoid the trap : when pleasant or unpleasant feeling becomes emotion/urge/thirst and consequently clinging, Satipatthana doesn't give priority to this point as Jon mentioned .. the reason certainly that we need to establish the necessary level of skillful mindfulness before it works "nipped in the bud" , i.e advancement in equanimity. By ' obvious ' I meant the relation of vedana and tanha with the first and second Noble Truth ( whereas the Noble Path approaches this 'problem') J: : To my understanding, samadhi need not (and in fact cannot) be developed separate from the development of awareness/insight itself. D: difficult to distinguish ..therefore right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration are grouped together under the the samadhi sequence of the path training... with Metta Dieter #107780 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed May 26, 2010 8:25 pm Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? kenhowardau Hi Nina, ------ <. . .> KH: > > > Perhaps I am making the same mistake of having a preference (in > which case someone will remind me) but I want to be able to face > panic and the fear of imminent death with equanimity. I want to > know them for the puny, temporary, conditioned phenomena that they > are. Bring them on! :-) N: > Very good, Ken. Now we understand why Kh Sujin always stresses citta now when people come to her with problems about death. That is the only way to cope with problems. Otherwise we think and think, no way out. Let us at least begin to understand reality now, and not just by thinking. -------- Thanks, Nina, the present reality is what we need to know, and it's always good to be reminded of that. Provided we bear it in mind, we can talk about other concerns. We can say (for example) that we want to have right understanding of panic and fear-of-death. (We can even make flippant remarks such as "Bring them on!") In the context of knowing the present reality, such concerns take on a whole new meaning. :-) Ken H #107781 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 26, 2010 6:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Jon) - In a message dated 5/26/2010 2:34:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Jon and Howard, You wrote: To my understanding, any dhamma at all may be the object of awareness/insight, and each moment of awareness/insight is of great value > regardless of which dhamma is the object. > I'm not aware of any support in the texts for 'targeting' the so-called vedana-tanha connection, or indeed for targeting any particular dhamma in > preference to others. > D: you may not see the obvious here , Jon...relevant is khanda attachment , dhammas as object the detail. > =============== J: I'm still not seeing "the obvious", I'm afraid. On the matter of dhammas as object, the Satipatthana Sutta (for example) does not seem to accord higher priority to one kind of dhamma over another. D: did you read Howard's comment?: " I think you may both be right in this. :-) Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so. In this respect, I believe you are correct, Jon. OTOH, as you suggest, Dieter, the primary condition for dukkha is tanha. When tanha sneaks by unnoticed, the suffering is sure to arise along with other ill effects. But when mindfulness is operative, there will be awareness of whatever arises, including the nascent stage of craving which may then be "nipped in the bud." I wonder whether we can say 'Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so ' , Howard. There is choice of focus , isn't it? Or would you describe that solely to right effort? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Focusing really amounts to an excluding of many things from attention by emphasizing one gross category of phenomenon such as a repeated sound or image, external or mental . That is fine for entering absorptive jhanas, but is not the sort of sharp attention that I view as characteristic of Buddhist meditation. Maintaining a steady and strong mindfulness is a guarding of the mind against falling prey to being swept away by thinking, imagining, recalling, planning, wishing, and by excitement or by sloth & torpor. It keeps attention present on whatever arises, including craving. But if one is constantly on the lookout just for craving, the mind will be wound up tight and will miss the very craving it is looking to spot. It is when the mind is relaxed, clear, and attentive to whatever arises, not picking and choosing, that wisdom has a chance of arising. One may initially create a basic layer of calm by focusing techniques, but that is just preliminary, IMO. --------------------------------------------------------------------- And yes, being mindful may avoid the trap : when pleasant or unpleasant feeling becomes emotion/urge/thirst and consequently clinging, Satipatthana doesn't give priority to this point as Jon mentioned .. the reason certainly that we need to establish the necessary level of skillful mindfulness before it works "nipped in the bud" , i.e advancement in equanimity. By ' obvious ' I meant the relation of vedana and tanha with the first and second Noble Truth ( whereas the Noble Path approaches this 'problem') J: : To my understanding, samadhi need not (and in fact cannot) be developed separate from the development of awareness/insight itself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I somewhat agree with that. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- D: difficult to distinguish ..therefore right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration are grouped together under the the samadhi sequence of the path training... with Metta Dieter =================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107782 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed May 26, 2010 10:14 pm Subject: 46 cittas in the eye door. truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, In CMA compendium of miscellaneous it says that 46 consciousness arise in the eye door. How can this be? I've thought that only two types of consciousness arise in any of 5 sense doors (kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka) and even then, the interpretation of a/kusala is itself mental (eye doesn't know if the sight is wholesome or unwholesome resultant). CMA says that these arise at the eye door: 1 five-door adverting 2 eye consciousness 2 receiving consciousness 3 investigating 1 determining 29 sense sphere javanas 8 registration It seems that almost all of these are mental, not belonging to cakkhu-pasada or bare eye consciousness. Can anyone clarify please? Thanks, With metta, Alex #107783 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed May 26, 2010 11:45 pm Subject: Kiriya citta, what is their cause? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, I've read that kiriya cittas are neither kamma nor result of kamma. If so, what is the cause of their arising? And in fact, what causes Arahants to behave in this or that way? Past (pre-arhatship) kamma? Thanks, With metta, Alex #107784 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed May 26, 2010 11:51 pm Subject: Re: Awakening Within this very life itself! kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Phil), -------- <. . .> KH: > > The Dhamma says there is no self. That means there is no self that will be reborn. So why would anyone who believed in this Dhamma "aspire" to any kind of rebirth? It isn't going to happen! > > H: > Ken, there is no self who eats either, but do you not eat, and do you not choose *what* and *when* to eat? (The "you" here is just "normal-speak") --------- Yes, but Phil was speaking in a Dhamma discussion. --------------- H: > Some food is good for you, and some is not. --------------- In "normal speak" that is easy to understand, but what would it mean in a Dhamma discussion? I think if someone were to say at DSG that he chose his food carefully, we could safely assume he was making a statement about control/no-control over dhammas. Also, I wonder if talk about rebirth could *ever* be normal speak. Wouldn't it inevitably involve views (about the ultimate nature of reality)? ------------------- H: > A human birth is extraordinarily useful. The Buddha pointed out useful things and harmful things. ------------------- Yes, but always in the context of conditioned dhammas! Some people miss that context. :-) ------------------------- H: > There is no self to do anything, so why attend to kusala versus akusala? ---------------------------- Do you mean why *try* to attend? Why indeed! That's the point I have been trying to make. :-) ---------------------------- KH: > > It's the same with woeful rebirth as it is with human rebirth - it isn't going to happen to you. (There is no you.) So why be concerned about it either way? > > H: > Likewise for what you eat. Not only that: This applies to ALL action. Why be concerned with whether you steal or not, cheat or not, even kill or not?! Why be concerned either way? What would the Buddha say? Would he say that there is no self, so it doesn't matter either way? ----------------------------- I don't know of *anyone* who behaves badly in the belief that there is "no self and therefore nothing matters." If anything, a belief in no control - even at mere a theoretical level - results in *improved* behaviour. I think it is because there is less clinging that way. And less thinking about oneself. -------------------- Ph: > > > I think it's great that you have nobler aspirations, I enjoy reading about them! > > > KH: > > Why don't you enjoy something more Dhamma related instead? For example, why don't you consider the question, "Given that there is no self, in what way can it be said there is rebirth? Or: given that there is no self, in what way can it be said that a monk "aspires" to a fortunate rebirth - or to anything?" --------------------- I notice you and Phil chose not to respond to that question. Perhaps you thought it was rhetorical. :-) Ken H #107785 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed May 26, 2010 11:57 pm Subject: Re: Driving into trees and falling off the cliff kenhowardau Hi Alex, --------- <. . .> A: > If there is No Self, then why doesn't one jump off the cliff --------- In reality there is no one who jumps off a cliff. Also, there is no cliff, and no activity known as jumping. --------------- <. . .> A: > But none of this means that we can ignore or forget about "conventional" reality. It is solid, so don't drive into a tree at 100 km/h or try a head on collision between "non-existent things and non-existent people". Don't forget about conventional reality! Conventionally it does exist. --------------- Sometimes Dhamma students seize upon conventional realities as an excuse for delaying satipatthana. But even then there are no Dhamma students, and no other conventional realities. There are just more conditioned dhammas to be known. :-) Ken H #107786 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu May 27, 2010 12:22 am Subject: Re: Driving into trees and falling off the cliff truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, >---"Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > --------- > <. . .> > A: > If there is No Self, then why doesn't one jump off the cliff > --------- > > In reality there is no one who jumps off a cliff. > Also, there is no cliff, and no activity known as jumping. Mind jumping off one, and proving it to everyone? :) Then why does "one" need to avoid falling off the cliff? Why does "one" need to eat and avoid starvation to death? With metta, Alex #107787 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed May 26, 2010 11:27 pm Subject: Happy Vesak to All Beings! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: At this Fullmoon Day do all Buddhas Awaken: 2010 May 27 Vesak Day celebrates birth, Enlightenment , and passing away of the Buddha Gotama . Rejoice! Keep clean, calm, cool, clever, and caring... About this Buddhist Vesak Festival: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesak This May full moon also celebrates the Buddha's third visit to Sri Lanka in the eighth year after his Enlightenment where he journeyed to Kelaniya on the invitation of the Naga King Maniakkhika (Mahavamsa i,72ff.). The day also celebrates the crowning of king Dev anampiyatissa (Mhv.Xi.42), and the laying of the foundation stone of the Mah a Stupa (Mhv.Xxix.1) Please Remember: At this very May full moon in year 528 BC the Blessed Buddha awakened by completely perfect and utterly unsurpassable self-Enlightenment! At that time a girl named Sujata Senani lived in Uruvela . When adult she prayed before a certain Banyan tree, that she might get a good husband equal to herself in caste & that her firstborn may be a son. Her prayer was successful. Since indeed it did happen. At the full moon day of the Wesak month, she rose at early dawn and milked the cows. As soon as new buckets were placed under the cows, the milk poured spontaneously in streams all by itself! Seeing this miracle, she knew something special was happening! That same night the Future Buddha dreamt 5 dreams making him conclude: "Surely, truly, without any doubt, today I will reach perfect Enlightenment!" His 5 colored radiance illuminated the whole tree. Then Sujata came and offered the cooked milk rice into the hands of this Great Being. Later a local grass-cutter came going with a bundle of grass just harvested from nearby. He offered the Great Being 8 handfuls of Kusa grass, when he saw that this Sage was a Holy Man. The Future Buddha accepted the grass and proceeded to the foot of the Bodhi-tree . Reaching the imperturbable Eastern side, where all the Buddhas take their seat , he sat down saying to himself: This is the immovable spot, where all the prior supreme Buddhas have planted themselves! This is the place for destroying this net of desire! Then the Future Buddha turned his back to the trunk and thus faced east. Right there, he then resolutely settled on this mighty decision: Let just blood and flesh of this body dry up & let skin and sinews fall from the bones. I will not leave this seat before having attained the absolute and Supreme Self-Enlightenment! <..> The Jataka Nidana. The story of Gotama Buddha. Tr. by N.A. Jayawickrama, Pali Text Society 1990. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132935 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #107788 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 27, 2010 8:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to induce right speach? nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 26-mei-2010, om 22:25 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > Provided we bear it in mind, we can talk about other concerns. We > can say (for example) that we want to have right understanding of > panic and fear-of-death. (We can even make flippant remarks such as > "Bring them on!") In the context of knowing the present reality, > such concerns take on a whole new meaning. :-) -------- N:It may be useful if you add more to your last remark, since not all people may follow this. As I understand from Kh Sujin, we should not select just fear. Any reality that appears now is worthy to be object of awareness. Nina. #107789 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 27, 2010 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kiriya citta, what is their cause? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 27-mei-2010, om 1:45 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I've read that kiriya cittas are neither kamma nor result of kamma. > If so, what is the cause of their arising? > > And in fact, what causes Arahants to behave in this or that way? > Past (pre-arhatship) kamma? -------- N: We have to distinguish between ahetuka kiriyacittas arising in processes that all people have, and the mahaa-kiriyacittas of the arahat not shared by non-arahats, that arise with sobhana cetasikas and wholesome roots. As to the ahetuka kiriyacittas common to all people, when visible object impinges on the eye-door, seeing does not arise immediately, but first the eye-door-adverting-consciousness arises that is a kiriyacitta, translated as inoperative. It is neither kusala, akusala nor vipaaka. It follows upon the last bhavanga-citta before a sense- door process begins, the arrest-bhavanga. This bhavanga-citta conditions it by way of contiguity-condition. Quote from my Vis. study (Ch 14, 106): We read in the Expositor II, p. 385, about kiriyacittas: ... N: the sense-door adverting-consciousness (pa?cadvaaraavajjana-citta) and the mind-door adverting-consciousness which performs in a sense- door process the function of determining (votthapana), are neither kusala, akusala, being different from the javanacittas, nor are they vipaaka. They are fruitless and merely perform their function. --------- The arahat has one type of ahetuka kiriyacitta not shared by non- arahats, the smile producing citta, hasituppada citta. Instead of mahaa-kusala cittas he has mahaa-kiriyacittas. Quote from Vis.: Text Vis. : <...that which has reached the apperceptional state is fruitless like the flower of an uprooted tree...> N: The javanacittas of the arahat are kiriyacittas which are neither cause nor result. For them there are no longer roots, hetus, which are kusala or akusala and this is compared to the roots which could cause a tree to bear fruits. Text: Nevertheless, because of procedure in accomplishing this and that function, there is the mere doing, hence [the activity] is called inoperative. The phrase ?neither moral [kusala] nor immoral [akusala]?, etc., means that, owing to the absence of the moral condition called the moral root, it is not moral; owing to the absence of the immoral condition called the immoral root, it is not immoral. Owing to the absence of moral and immoral causes of wise and unwise attention, it is said to be neither moral nor immoral. Owing to the absence of the productive condition called moral and immoral, it is not result of kamma...> The arahat also acts, he leads his daily life, and this is conditioned by his accumulated inclinations. He preaches, he has an abundance of mettaa and karu.na when speaking to people. His actions do not produce result, he is freed from the cycle of birth and death. Nina. #107790 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 27, 2010 8:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 46 cittas in the eye door. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 27-mei-2010, om 0:14 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > In CMA compendium of miscellaneous it says that 46 consciousness > arise in the eye door. How can this be? > > I've thought that only two types of consciousness arise in any of 5 > sense doors (kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka) and even then, the > interpretation of a/kusala is itself mental (eye doesn't know if > the sight is wholesome or unwholesome resultant). > > CMA says that these arise at the eye door: > 1 five-door adverting > 2 eye consciousness > 2 receiving consciousness > 3 investigating > 1 determining > 29 sense sphere javanas > 8 registration > > It seems that almost all of these are mental, not belonging to > cakkhu-pasada or bare eye consciousness. --------- N: The eye-door is doorway not only for seeing, but for all other cittas that can arise in an eye-door process. All of these experience visible object, but each in their own way, performing a specific function. Yes, they are all mental, naama. The eye-door and the visible object are ruupas conditioning naama. Eyesense is both doorway and vatthu, physical base for seeing. As to the other cittas arising in that process, they still have eyesense as doorway, but a different physical base, the heartbase. As to the 29 sense sphere javanas, these are 12 akusala cittas, 8 mahaakusala cittas, 8 mahaa-kiriyacittas and the ahetuka kiriyacitta that is hasituppadacitta. Alex, can you help me checking these 29, to see whether this is correct? Nina. #107791 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu May 27, 2010 12:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 46 cittas in the eye door. truth_aerator Dear Nina, Thank you for your reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 27-mei-2010, om 0:14 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > In CMA compendium of miscellaneous it says that 46 consciousness > > arise in the eye door. How can this be? > > > > I've thought that only two types of consciousness arise in any of 5 > > sense doors (kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka) and even then, the > > interpretation of a/kusala is itself mental (eye doesn't know if > > the sight is wholesome or unwholesome resultant). > > > > CMA says that these arise at the eye door: > > 1 five-door adverting > > 2 eye consciousness > > 2 receiving consciousness > > 3 investigating > > 1 determining > > 29 sense sphere javanas > > 8 registration > > > > It seems that almost all of these are mental, not belonging to > > cakkhu-pasada or bare eye consciousness. > --------- > N: The eye-door is doorway not only for seeing, but for all other > cittas that can arise in an eye-door process. All of these experience > visible object, but each in their own way, performing a specific > function. Yes, they are all mental, naama. The eye-door and the > visible object are ruupas conditioning naama. > Eyesense is both doorway and vatthu, physical base for seeing. As to > the other cittas arising in that process, they still have eyesense as > doorway, but a different physical base, the heartbase. > As to the 29 sense sphere javanas, these are 12 akusala cittas, 8 > mahaakusala cittas, 8 mahaa-kiriyacittas and the ahetuka kiriyacitta > that is hasituppadacitta. > Alex, can you help me checking these 29, to see whether this is >correct? Yes, the 29 are 12 unwh. 8 wholesome, 8 beautiful functional, 1 smile producing. So what you are saying is that these citta arise in the mind based on what was seen, right? This is what I can accept. I cannot accept that eye or eye consciousness itself has 46 functions. But I can accept that the mind has 46 or more functions based on the eye-consciousnes, etc. With metta, Alex #107792 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu May 27, 2010 1:03 pm Subject: Abhinna & memory of past lives truth_aerator Dear Nina, I wonder, how is abhinna of recollecting past lives classified? Is it kusala or vipaka citta? Can it be based on akusala citta? Why can a person recollect at least some events from this life, yet not be able to recollect previous life? Other than "reach 4th sutta jhana", is there another explanation? Some children had spontaneous recollections of former lives and some claim to be able to recall past lives through hypnotic regression (which isn't 4th sutta or 5th Abhidhamma jhana). With metta, Alex #107793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 27, 2010 1:41 pm Subject: Abhidhamma Series, no 16. The World. nilovg Dear friends, no 16. The World. The study of the different kinds of naama and ruupa will help us to understand more clearly the various conditions for the arising of bodily phenomena and mental phenomena. Gradually we shall come to understand that all our experiences in life, all the objects we experience, our bodily movements and our speech are only conditioned naama and ruupa. In the planes of existence where there are naama and ruupa, naama conditions ruupa and ruupa conditions naama in different ways. The ruupas that are sense objects and the ruupas that can function as sense-doors are conditions for the different cittas arising in processes which experience sense objects. The study of ruupas can help us to have more clarity about the fact that only one object at a time can be experienced through one of the six doors. Visible object, for example, can be experienced through the eye-door, it cannot be experienced through the body-door, thus, through touch. Seeing-consciousness experiences what is visible and body-consciousness experiences tangible object, such as hardness or softness. Through each door the appropriate object can be experienced and the different doorways should not be confused with one another. When we believe that we can see and touch a flower, we think of a concept. A concept or conventional truth can be an object of thought, but it is not a paramattha dhamma, an ultimate reality with its own inalterable characteristic. When we are thinking about the world and all people in it, we only know the world by way of conventional truth. It seems that there is the world full of beings and things, but in reality there is citta experiencing different dhammas arising and falling away very rapidly. Only one object at a time can be cognized as it appears through one doorway. Without the doorways of the senses and the mind the world could not appear. So long as we take what appears as a ?whole?, a being or person, we do not know the world. We read in the ?Kindred Sayings? (IV, Sa.laayatana vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, Ch II, ? 68, Samiddhi sutta) that when the Buddha was staying near Raajagaha, in Bamboo Grove, Samiddhi came to see him and adressed him: ? ?The world! The world!? is the saying, lord. Pray, lord, to what extent is there the world or the concept of ?world??? ?Where there is eye, Samiddhi, visible object, seeing-consciousness, where there are dhammas cognizable by the eye, there is the world and the concept of ?world?.? (The same is said with regard to the other doorways.) In our life happy moments and sad moments alternate. We attach great importance to our experiences in life, to our life in this world, but actually life is extremely short, lasting only as long as one moment of citta. We read in the ?Visuddhimagga? (VII, 39) : "'Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow' (Nd.1,42)." ------------ Nina. #107794 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 27, 2010 1:43 pm Subject: Abhidhamma Series, no 16. The World. nilovg > > Dear friends, > > no 16. The World. > > The study of the different kinds of naama and ruupa will help us to > understand more clearly the various conditions for the arising of > bodily phenomena and mental phenomena. Gradually we shall come to > understand that all our experiences in life, all the objects we > experience, our bodily movements and our speech are only > conditioned naama and ruupa. In the planes of existence where there > are naama and ruupa, naama conditions ruupa and ruupa conditions > naama in different ways. The ruupas that are sense objects and the > ruupas that can function as sense-doors are conditions for the > different cittas arising in processes which experience sense objects. > The study of ruupas can help us to have more clarity about the fact > that only one object at a time can be experienced through one of > the six doors. Visible object, for example, can be experienced > through the eye-door, it cannot be experienced through the body- > door, thus, through touch. Seeing-consciousness experiences what is > visible and body-consciousness experiences tangible object, such as > hardness or softness. Through each door the appropriate object can > be experienced and the different doorways should not be confused > with one another. When we believe that we can see and touch a > flower, we think of a concept. A concept or conventional truth can > be an object of thought, but it is not a paramattha dhamma, an > ultimate reality with its own inalterable characteristic. > When we are thinking about the world and all people in it, we only > know the world by way of conventional truth. It seems that there is > the world full of beings and things, but in reality there is citta > experiencing different dhammas arising and falling away very > rapidly. Only one object at a time can be cognized as it appears > through one doorway. Without the doorways of the senses and the > mind the world could not appear. So long as we take what appears as > a ?whole?, a being or person, we do not know the world. > > We read in the ?Kindred Sayings? (IV, Sa.laayatana vagga, Kindred > Sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, Ch II, ? 68, Samiddhi sutta) that > when the Buddha was staying near Raajagaha, in Bamboo Grove, > Samiddhi came to see him and adressed him: > ? ?The world! The world!? is the saying, lord. Pray, lord, to what > extent is there the world or the concept of ?world??? > ?Where there is eye, Samiddhi, visible object, seeing- > consciousness, where there are dhammas cognizable by the eye, there > is the world and the concept of ?world?.? > (The same is said with regard to the other doorways.) > > In our life happy moments and sad moments alternate. We attach > great importance to our experiences in life, to our life in this > world, but actually life is extremely short, lasting only as long > as one moment of citta. > > We read in the ?Visuddhimagga? (VII, 39) : > "'Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive > Are all alike, gone never to return. > No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not > Produced; when that is present, then it lives; > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: > The highest sense this concept will allow' (Nd.1,42)." > > ------------ > > Nina. #107795 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 27, 2010 1:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 46 cittas in the eye door. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 27-mei-2010, om 14:58 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Yes, the 29 are > 12 unwh. > 8 wholesome, > 8 beautiful functional, > 1 smile producing. ------- N: Good, I have a mental bloc as regards counting. ------- > > A: So what you are saying is that these citta arise in the mind > based on what was seen, right? -------- I would put it a little differently: all these cittas are mind. Each citta is a mind-moment. They arise in an eye-door process of cittas and all of them experience visible object through the doorway of the eye. -------- > A: This is what I can accept. I cannot accept that eye or eye > consciousness itself has 46 functions. But I can accept that the > mind has 46 or more functions based on the eye-consciousnes, etc. ------ N: Of the above twentynine, only one type arises in one process. The javana-cittas are all of the same type. Not all 46 arise in one process. Eye-consciousness or seeing (the same) is only one among these. Again the use of the word mind, see above. Just 46 different cittas that can arise on account of visible object. You listed before: 1 five-door adverting > > 2 eye consciousness > > 2 receiving consciousness > > 3 investigating > > 1 determining > > 29 sense sphere javanas > > 8 registration --------- N: In one process: 1 five-door adverting > > 1 eye consciousness (either kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta) > > 1 receiving consciousness (either kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta) > > investigating-consciousness (there are 3 types, but only one type in one process) > > 1 determining > > sense sphere javanas, only one type in one process, there are seven of the same type. > > registration , onle one type in one process, there are 8 possibilities. --------- Nina. #107796 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu May 27, 2010 5:02 pm Subject: Difference between Pariyatti and patipatti truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, What is the difference between learning Abhidhamma and practicing it? Is it possible to learn it and not practice? The Buddha did say on various occasions that you shouldn't just learn, you must put it into practice. With metta, Alex #107797 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu May 27, 2010 5:49 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 moellerdieter Hi Jon, All, you wrote: ' wellknown scholar , Ven. P.A. Payutto , wrote an essay about it : please see > http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/buddha/Teachings/037-payutto2.htm > =============== Thanks for the reference. It's a long article (8 pages when printed), so not everyone will get around to reading it. Are there any particular observations or conclusions in the article you'd like to mention? D: our mails may have intersected .....as mentioned I like to emphasize the Venerable's propositions ' What must be grasped is the difference between kamma in the context of natural law, and kamma in the context of ethics. snip.. But on the level of ethics, the teaching of kamma is meant to be used on a practical basis. Consequently, full responsibility is placed on the individual. This is emphasized in the Buddha?s words from the Dhammapada, "Be a refuge unto yourself." as well as ' 'There is one question which, though only occasionally asked, tends to linger in the minds of many newcomers to the study of Buddhism: "Do the teachings of kamma and not-self contradict each other?" If everything, including body and mind, is not-self, then how can there be kamma? Who is it who commits kamma? Who receives the results of kamma? " Both issues , related to eachother, are quite often a matter of confusion. I believe the article is worthwhile to get around and reading th eight pages. Though it may be better for one's Dhamma research und first understanding to look for what has been said in the suttas and then see what reputed scholars have to say , the other way around is quite convenient in particular due to the easy available access.. Wondering whether we should wish eachother 'Happy Visakh ' today ... why not! Although I believe the Master probably would prefer that we recall his final words : "All composite things pass away. Strive for your own liberation with diligence." with Metta Dieter #107798 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 27, 2010 6:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Difference between Pariyatti and patipatti nilovg Dear Alex and Dieter, Op 27-mei-2010, om 19:02 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > What is the difference between learning Abhidhamma and practicing it? > > Is it possible to learn it and not practice? The Buddha did say on > various occasions that you shouldn't just learn, you must put it > into practice. ------- N: Yes, the whole of the Tipi.taka points towards satipa.t.thaana and that is the practice. The texts are not just meant for reading and reflection. They remind us of the truth of non-self, and the eradication of the wrong view of self is the first step towards the eradication of all defilements. How could lobha, dosa and moha be eradicated if we still believe that they are 'us'? They have to be known and realised as conditioned elements. Each page of the Abhidhamma reminds us that there is no person, no self, only citta, cetasika and ruupa. I like this type of question, Alex. Good to think over. Just continue if you have more. That is kind of you Dieter, I wish you, Alex and all likewise a fruitful Vesakh time. ------- Nina. #107799 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu May 27, 2010 7:26 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Pariyatti and patipatti szmicio Dear Alex, > What is the difference between learning Abhidhamma and practicing it? > > Is it possible to learn it and not practice? L: This is possible, when one read it like scholars do. Without wise attention, yoniso manasiara. Than this is akusala. > The Buddha did say on various occasions that you shouldn't just learn, you must put it into practice. L: I dont understand much of this word "practice". I always wonder what that mean. But for sure wise attention and siila, samadhi, panna are bhavana - the mental development. Best wishes Lukas